The Methylene Blue Masterclass: Cutting-Edge Mitochondrial Support w/ Dr. Scott Sherr | 2837

Key Takeaway

Your energy production is like driving a gasoline-powered car—you need fuel (food) to run, but you also create exhaust (reactive oxygen species). 94% of US adults can't effectively manage this balance. The fix isn't always doing more exercise or drinking more coffee. Often, you need to downregulate your nervous system first while supporting your mitochondria. Think of it like taking your foot off the gas pedal while ensuring your engine has enough oil—otherwise, you'll just crash harder.

Episode Overview

Dr. Scott Sherr, a board-certified internal medicine physician specializing in Health Optimization Medicine, discusses the shift from disease-focused care to optimizing foundational health. He explains how 94% of US adults are metabolically unhealthy due to mitochondrial dysfunction, and shares strategies for improving energy production, managing stress, and supporting cellular health—including the emerging role of methylene blue as a mitochondrial optimizer.

Full Transcript

Transcript of The Methylene Blue Masterclass: Cutting-Edge Mitochondrial Support w/ Dr. Scott Sherr | 2837 from Mind Pump Show. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Scott, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, guys. This has been this is great already. We're already having a good time. So, uh, just for the listeners, tell them a little bit about your background and what you do and and from there. Yeah. So, I'm a board-certified internal medicine physician. I practice something called Health Optimization Medicine, which is a it's it's based on a nonprofit actually that we help run. It's called Health Optimization Medicine in Practice. It's a framework that optimizes health rather than focuses on disease.

It's a if you're a clinician, you want to look for more training and a different perspective. It's really cool and it's um it's a seven module certification for people. And so I use that as kind of the foundation of my practice. I'm also specialized in something called hyperbaric oxygen therapy which I've known and used in practice for many years when I was living in the Bay Area actually as well. And then I help run a couple companies. One called transcriptions is a company that helps people right now on the longer path of optim optimizing their health.

and I'm the chief of education outreach. I don't my my title just changed. It was something and now it's something else. But I I do a lot of education outreach media and a lot of teaching. I still have my own clinical practice. Um I do it most through my house in Colorado at this point. And I really try to kind of give people a navigation on, you know, some of the more difficult things that we're focusing on these days. energy, stress, anxiety, sleep, immune system function, and how we can really help people now while we're on the longer path of helping people long term.

In my experience, when I've met uh uh physicians um who have moved into a space that seems more preventative, there's typically a story behind it. Is that I was going to ask, you didn't land there, did you? Did you? So, there's two ways this typically happens, right? The first way is not my way. The first way is you're a doctor and the system fails you, right? the system fails your you or your family and then they can't get help and they look for alternative things and they get into the functional integrative world and that's how it goes.

My story is a little bit different. I grew up the son of a crazy [ __ ] chiropractor. So my dad um so his name's Alan Sher and um he's a practicing chiropractor for over 45 years in Long Island in New York. And so I grew up in his practice. I grew up obviously I was adjusted when I was born and then I even when I was a kid in high school I worked at his front desk. I was really good at collecting money because I knew that was the money I was getting for spending money and also for college, right?

So, so I grew up very alternatively and I didn't really know a lot about conventional medicine until I decided actually with his guidance to go to medical school. The idea being well I grew up pretty crazy. I I kind of have understanding of that alternative world at least in like at least in philosophy that I would learn the medical stuff and then figure out what to do with my life. And so as a result of that I kind of took the fastest path out of medical school you could which is four years of medical school three years of residency which is still a lot but that's the shortest and then from there gravitated towards creating my own integrative practice where I see people from all over the world using that health optimization medicine framework along with using other tools and technologies and practices and you know supplementation and things like that.

So that's the story. Do you do you still remember can you remember or recall when you realized you were growing up in unconventional medicine? unconventional medicine? unconventional medicine? Oh man, I mean it was always weird in my house. I mean because there's always, you know, because in that time there was no functional medicine. There was no really integrative medicine. It was just like OG alternative health chiropractors really that were doing it. And so it was always something weird happening in my house or or close to it.

Right. I was even talking to my dad. It was you actually like the story is that we have like a very small podcast called the health optimization medicine podcast and I interviewed my father for it and he was telling me all these stories about my childhood and about growing up and like he was in communes before he started the practice and like all this crazy crazy stuff and I was like oh this makes so much more sense. So, but some cool stuff. Like I remember being a kid and him taking off people from dairy and from, you know, from like sugar and things like that in before it was popular in the 1980s.

He'd take people off of dairy, their allergies would go away, their asthma would go away, like they could function better. And so I saw him doing all these crazy things back then and it's kind of come full circle for me now because now I have my own practice where that philosophy is a big part of what I do. But now it's a little bit more data driven. And so I do laboratory testing and use a field called metabolomics which is this cool study of like small molecules of how the cells work.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um so but I'm always he's still one of my you know my biggest mentors and I talk to him all the time and and he's always one a big fan of the things that I do. I do. I do. Now because you came from that and you saw things like that as early as in the 80s. Uh were you the pain in the ass student going through western medicine? People were like did they it was so weird because people go to pizza parties all the time like why would the [ __ ] we eat pizza?

like this is medical school, right? And and like it was I was definitely a pain in the ass. Yeah. But also, you know, part of it is it is it is when you're training, you just kind of put your head down and you train, right? So, like it's schools, right? So, um there were times often times because the thing about medical school is that like you spend like a hot semester on anatomy and physiology. You do your dissections and all that thing. Um which I was not very good at.

That was not my thing. I was never going to be a surgeon. Um, I had this reputation of being the oops guy. Like I'd accidentally break. accidentally break. accidentally break. They were already dead though. Okay. So, so that was okay. But there were time, you know, there were times when I was like, what am I doing? Why am I here? Like because when sometimes you because very very quickly after learning anatomy and physiology go directly to pathophysiology and disease and treatment, right? There's no like how do you keep the body healthy, you know?

And that's what kind of how I grew up with that philosophy is like if you give the body what it needs, it's it's going to work the way it's supposed to. And and you know, my my dad actually had this really interesting saying back in the early '9s. He's like, "Scott, the most powerful drug you can ever take is the food that you eat." This is like 1992, right? Nobody was talking about this at the time, right? So, he's very very preient or very whatever it is, you know?

And and so for me, it's always it's been like a mission to go back there. Yeah. And then this health optimization medicine framework that I use in my clinical practice that's based on a another mentor of mine and a guy that I work with now. He's actually the the founder of the nonprofit and also transcriptions. His name is Dr. Ted Aricoso. Dr. Ted is this like polymath brilliant dude and he created this framework and he's like what if we can optimize health rather than focusing on disease and keep people healthy and not just looking at looking at early onset of disease or like what's that we have standards of care for like diabetes and high blood pressure.

But there's no standard of care for health, right? And that's what he was trying to develop. And so I signed on almost immediately when I met Ted in 2017 because it was like this is it. Like this is what I've been waiting for is like some way to bring everything together. This is interesting. It's so It's so crazy because it's so true. Chiropractors were the original alternative medicine practitioners before that even became a thing. What were the What are the strengths and weaknesses of of traditional western medicine?

And then what are the strengths and weaknesses of alternative and how are you trying to bring those together? together? together? Well, I think the strengths and of the the acute care system is that we're really good at acute care. Like if I worked at in Baltimore at a place called the Shock Trauma Center and if you can imagine have you guys have watched The Wire before, you know. Yeah. One of my favorite shows. Yeah. It's a great show, right? So I actually lived in a building that's like a cracked out building in the show that they redid they redid they redid afterwards.

It's called Silo Point and uh kind of funny story there. But in Baltimore, lots of shock, lots of trauma, lots of gunshot wounds. So, you had a shock trauma and like most of the time like even you come in like with ridiculous ridiculous things that you mostly live, right? We I mean I I can tell just a quick crazy story like there was a lady that came in with a knife in her chest. Okay. And I'm a third-year medical student. Um I'm on call every three nights for 30 hours.

Like that's it's called Q3. This is actually where I learned about hyperbaric therapy, interestingly enough. But so on call every every three nights for 30 hours for three weeks, like one day off. So the way that works is that you're just to kind of people give a sense you work for 30 hours you go home you sleep for four hours you wake up you have dinner you go back to bed and you go back and you have two regular days then your third day is like that again 30 30 hours okay so it's crazy but in the shock trauma center this lady came in she had a a knife in her chest she was completely talking to us right no problem but all of a sudden lost all her vital signs right and so if that happens in a trauma bay What you do is you complet you crack their chest open right there without taking them to the O.

So they crack their chest open, open up and I watched her heart just spurting out blood every beat and they actually were able to sew a sew something onto her heart to stop it from doing that and she lived. It was the craziest thing I've ever seen, right? So we can do amazing things in acute care, but we suck at almost everything else when it comes to the conventional system. primary care, prevention care is okay in some ways, but they're not looking for keeping you healthy, right?

They're just keeping you trying to find early signs of disease to keep you from dying, right? And there is a I think everybody needs to get a colonoscopy like it's like I think if you're sure, sure, sure, you know, male, female, you're over 40 45 years of age, like get screening tests can be very important because they can find early signs because most of us are just really unhealthy in general. And that's that's the other issue, right? 94% of US adults are metabolically unhealthy, right? So it's only 6% are metabolically healthy.

This is why mitochondria become a big deal, you know, which I'm sure we'll talk about later. But in essence, I think what what what conventional care is really good for is acute and interventional care. Now, aside from that, not very good at much else. We have to manage disease. They can manage disease, okay? But they're not looking at trying to reverse disease, not trying, you know, try to get to the root cause of anything, right? So we're non-conventional medicine. And so integrative functional health optimization medicine the things really come in is like how can we look at the root causes first of all for sure but even even in addition to that how can we keep people healthy how can we optimize them at a foundational level and that's really where I think things are going right I think that's what you guys are all about too right which is like let's take things out of that system because once you get in the acute care system it's really difficult to get out and I was I worked in the hospital for many years I worked as a as a hospitalist have you guys heard of a hospitalist before before before so hospitalist is like your primary care doctor in the hospital.

Okay? Okay? Okay? So you have a primary care doctor that will see you and that will send you to a specialist and like you know that what a primary care doctor equivalent in the hospitalist does is be your primary person and then if you need a cardiologist you get a cardiologist. if you need a a gastronurologist and things like that. So, I did that for many years and like it's okay, you know, it works, but um but um but um but it's like grinding people out most of the time where you find that you send somebody home, they're going to come back four or six months later with something else, right?

The system is not good at reversing anything. It's just good at managing. And then we have a pharmaceutical system that's very very good at keeping people on medications for the rest of their life because that's how they make all their money, right? If you have a blockbuster drug, I mean, Viagra not excluded, although now we can take Viagra all the time, right? You know, You know, You know, no problem. It's good for vascular health. It's good prevent dementia and things like that. Or I was just at 18,700 ft at Everest base camp.

You can take it up there. It helps too. Um where you walk around with half of an erection at the same time. But that's not why it's because of the brain. brain. brain. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. So anyway, I think that I think the conventional system is good at acute and and preventional care, but it's mostly a grinding system. I mean, I have friends of mine in in the system like it's a meat grinder. That's what you call. You grind people in, you grind people out.

You only have 15 minutes with somebody and you're done, you know? Yeah. Part of the challenge uh I think too, Scott, just to give some because I' i've I've over the years of being a personal trainer, I've trained so many doctors. At one at one point, I had a studio. I was down the street from a large hospital and I started I trained one and next thing you know they're referring each other and I'm training all these doctors and surgeons and they're good people. They really want to help people.

They and we would talk about this all the time. I'm obviously in fitness and health. They're you know treating people either through surgery or through medications. Part of the challenge too is uh preventative care is requires more from the patient. It's not just just just take this pill which by the way the data on even people forgetting to take their medication is pretty silly. Yes. But it's it also just requires more like getting someone to take a pill versus change your diet. The adherence is a lot higher with the medication than so how do you work with that?

Is it do you get more probably get more of a self- selection bias if people are willing to so maybe I don't know talk about that a little bit. This episode is also brought to you by seed. This is the world's best probiotics. Look studies show that taking probiotics definitely help with gut health but they also help with things like mental clarity. They help with athletic performance. They help with skin health. Uh they help with lots of different anxiety. Probiotics uh are a staple. Um and the data is showing this.

So some of the most studied supplements you can take are probiotics. But don't settle with any. Go with seed. They're the best. They have the best science, the best people on their board uh who uh do this cutting edge technology and science on probiotics. And they have a patented delivery system. Go check them out. Get 20% off. Go to seed.com/mindpump. use the code 20 mind pump to get that 20% off. 20% off. 20% off. I mean, I think what it what's coming down to is that there's a lot of democratizing of information now, right?

And so that's a really a good thing because now it's not like the doctor's telling you everything and that's it. Because 20 years ago, you just had the doctor to listen to. And now then there was Dr. Google, which was good, but also a pain in the ass because if you look and you see you have like a hangail, you think you're dying of cancer. And so you have patients coming in, I'm dying of cancer doc because of this hangail or whatever, right? And now you have doctor chat GPT or whatever, right?

And so it's there's definitely negatives to that because it becomes like becomes like becomes like information overload. information overload. information overload. Information overload. Exactly. But at the same time, it's more democratized so that you can really get people more interested in helping themselves, I think. And you're right. So for me, it's a lot of a self- selection bias. But what I found over the years is that you have to give people some glimmer that there's a different way to do things, right? And for everybody, that's going to be a little bit different.

But the key, and this is what's really important, is that when you're working to optimize somebody's health, it's not likely to happen, it's not going to happen overnight, okay? It's going to happen six months or a year later if they can stay on a path, right? So, you need to give them things along the way to help them so that those bottlenecks are addressed. Is the bottleneck energy? Is the bottleneck focus? is the bottleneck streak as sleep or stress. or stress. or stress. You can if you work on those bottlenecks along the way then it becomes a lot easier and I found like the biggest two bottlenecks in the world for me as a clinician are energy and anxiety about it because people want more energy and people don't want to be less anxious, right?

And if you can optimize their energy, you can make them feel better right now so that they have more capacity more long term to do the things that you want to do like change their diet, walk around the block even, or just do something slightly different about their stress. But if they don't have enough energy, they can't do it. That's right. That's right. That's right. And and having energy is like is the biggest currency that we have, right? And we're supposed to make So we make ATP, our energy currency in the body, right?

We make about 150 pounds of that every single day to maintain our energy demands. But it's very difficult for us to do that because most of us as I mentioned earlier are not able to do it anymore. 94% of us adults don't have enough capacity. The biggest example that I've been thinking about recently is black and white thinking. Our brains are the number two place that we have the most energy needs. You guys know the number one place place place is it liver, muscle, gut, reproductive hormones.

reproductive hormones. reproductive hormones. Oh Oh Oh yeah. So eggs and sperm have the most mitochondria per mitochondria per mitochondria per Yeah. And right after that is the brain, right? So if you're trying to think in like a nuanced sort of way that takes a lot of energy. That's why we're all so polarized. We love to be like it's either you know black or white. There's nothing in between because energy demands for a nuanced kind of thinking are very very challenging. Well take take us then to uh metabolic health or mitochondrial health.

I mean you hear this a lot now in social media. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What are we talking about and and why is this even a big deal? I this why is this even a big deal? I think that's the wave of what we're seeing, right? Is because metabolic health is mitochondrial health. So people hear the word metabolic health or that that term. What that really means is that can you make energy effectively and can you manage the stress of making energy. So you guys know that we eat especially fat and carbohydrates because we need the electrons on those particular macronutrients to be processed by our cells in this part of the cell called the mitochondria to help us make energy.

Okay? So we need to be able to make energy, right? And so that's not an easy thing for many of us to do anymore because along that process of taking our food and bringing it down and bringing it into the mitochondria, there's a lot of steps along the way, right? There's the citric acid cycle which is what breaks down the food and then has things like NADH and FADH which are these electron carriers that bring electrons into the mitochondria and they go into something called the electron transport chain which has four complexes aptly named 1 2 3 and four where the electrons have to flow through that and then as they're doing it you make this gradient of protons hydrogen ions and you have to have oxygen come in and become the final electron acceptor.

This is all happening, you know, millions of times a second for all of us right now. We have quadrillions of mitochondria in our body. It's like a huge amount that we have. And not only do we make energy, we make this ATP. We do it by allowing this gradient of of protons coming back down. It's a 6,000 RPM motor that's in our cells. ATP engine. It's a making energy. And then we make we make we make energy ATP, but we also make carbon dioxide, you know, which goes back to the plants and then give us oxygen, right?

That's the goal. And we make uh we make water and we also make what are called reactive oxygen species or free radicals. That's great. If we have too many free radicals though, the system starts breaking down. And so metabolic health is do you have the capacity to make energy effectively throughout that whole process that I just just just went went by very briefly. And then do you have also the capacity to manage the stress of making energy and 94% of us don't have that capacity anymore.

anymore. anymore. Yeah. to compare the 94 to the top 6% like and and compare it from the perspective of somebody the average person who's like I want to lose a bunch of body fat I want to be in shape what compare those two groups like what is happening on like a cellular level as far as like their ability to have success success success it's their resilience right because everybody's going to have stress everybody even the people that are in the top 6% of course they're going to have stress but what they have is enough capacity to manage both the energy production and the detoxific ification side of things.

And what happens over time is that the detox side of things especially gets really really clogged up. And if that happens, the whole system starts breaking down. And the biggest reason for this is actually insulin resistance. So people have high blood sugars. blood sugars. blood sugars. Sugar is one of our substrates. It goes into our mitochondria helps us make energy. But it also if there's a [ __ ] ton of it, you're also going to make more waste products, right? Make more reactive oxygen species. And then what happens is that the mitochondria get overloaded with these waste products because you don't have enough what do you need to balance this?

need antioxidants to do this things like glutathione and vitamin C and alphalapoic acid and things like that which over time get depleted and then you get into a place where you can't actually manage the amount of energy that's coming in and so the mitochondria start actually doing the opposite actually making less over time and so you know this like it's not something that happens overnight for most people but they're insulin resistant they're they're fatigued all the time they feel like they're inflamed all the time like they can't lose weight their brain's foggy they have mental health issues.

These are all mitochondrial issues at their base. And the question is just what, right? You have definitely insulin resistance being like one of the major reasons. The other one is a big one which is sympathetic activation, always being in fight or flight, always feeling like your your brain is is is on instead of having that parasympathetic side of things because if you're always on, you're always releasing neurotransmitters and hormones like cortisol that are stressing the system too. So talk about now this is 90 would you 94% of the people and um you get news from the doctor the you're not healthy or what like that or you're recently motivated cuz you whatever reason feel like I need to make a change in my life and so I cut calories I start hitting the gym 5 days a week I'm pushing sweat my ass off that person ends up struggling so explain why that is and and I feel like this you align so much with the conversations that we have on this podcast all the time and we get a lot of [ __ ] for like uh telling people to do less.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I've been calling it the sympathetic spiral of doom for this particular reason because people think they need to do more to get better as opposed to doing less. And often times it's those people that go to the gym and then they crash for like three or four days after they went or they go into a sauna and they can't move for 5 days afterwards because their body is already under such sympathetic dominance. you know that fight or flight that running from the saber-tooth tiger thing that we always say in medical school for some reason.

I don't know why we always use a saber-tooth tiger. Who thinks about a saber-tooth tiger, but we do. Um anyway, but you know that's what culture rewards, right? We all reward that hustle. I grew up in New York and you know the hustle that never stops kind of deal. And in med medical school we had shirts that said sleep is for quitters, right? Because it was in medical school. Well, I mean I mean I told you about my rotation at shock trauma, right? 30 hours every 3 days.

It was intense, right? right? right? And so we reward this stuff, but then what's so interesting is that as a clinician, clinician, clinician, you think people would realize when they're in this state, but they have no idea, right? They have no clue. They think that, oh, I just need more stimulants or like, oh, I just need to do the gym more, like I need more coffee, right? Or whatever. But then they realize like they do more and more, but they're not seeing any benefit, right? And so a big part of this actually is like you know what you actually have to calm down your nervous system without telling them to calm down.

We talked about this, right? You don't tell somebody to calm down because that doesn't work, right? But if you say, "Look, if we just downregulate your nervous system a little bit, throw you back into parasympathetic, parasympathetic, parasympathetic, everything else is going to get easier, you know?" But that's it's a conversation and then it's giving them the experience. But the key here, and this is really important, is that when you're trying to downregulate somebody's nervous system and calm them down, down, down, if they don't have enough cellular capacity, they're going to crash, right?

Because you decrease their nervous system capacity. So you're trying to get them to relax, which was keeping them just moving, just getting them keeping them alive basically and then being able to function the way they were. I had a lady just a couple weeks ago, she's like, I was dealing with mold and lime. My my my doctor gave me some stuff to calm me down and I just went bam, right? She crashed, right? Because that was keeping her and so many of us out here, this is the same thing.

This is what's happening now, right? is that we're just able to to stay on this sort of train and then if you you know if you start taking the brakes off without giving enough mitochondrial support this is where the methane blue actually comes up a lot right is where because that's what have been like one of my biggest levers recently is like if you can give them the support while you're taking the break we're starting to put the brakes on. on. on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Then that's the key.

We have a term that we call uh them cortisol junkies. cortisol junkies. cortisol junkies. Yeah. It's that and this is really hard to communicate to a person that's in this state because they get this uh immediate reward from the high stress. Try telling somebody who's here where you're describing who just did their circuit training class and they get that rush afterwards of completing it and that adrenaline and they go like and then try being the person who's trying to tell them that's not good for you.

Like piss off. I know how I felt right afterwards. It's really difficult to communicate that. I'd love for you to get into methylin blue like the history of it. We talked about this uh you know tongue and cheek like where did who was the first person to realize that dye had these types of benefits to it you know for the mitochondria like how did you get uh uh how'd you find your way towards it? towards it? towards it? So it's a crazy compound. It's very blue.

It's been around a long time. Um but is absolutely a huge bridge in the work that I do because it helps right now with the mitochondrial function that we've been talking about. It helps with energy and detoxification at the same time. So, I like I like to tell I like to say that our cells are like gasoline powered cars. We make ATP, but we also make that carbon dioxide. Not a waste product, I promise, but people will think about it out that way. I have friends that get very angry if I call it a waste product.

Um, and then water, and then of course those reactive oxygen species, right? That's what our cells are making on a regular basis. But methylene blue comes in. It helps with the energy production side and it helps as detoxifying at the same time. So it works with energy and detox at the same time. time. time. It's called a redox cyclinger in that way. So the history of it in the 1870s 1870. So a long time ago, it was developed as a textile dye. So if you wore like Levi Strauss jeans, your jeans were dyed with methylene blue.

But at that time you guys, if you had like a a cellulitis, like an infection on your leg, leg, leg, you would die, right? Because there was no antibiotics. There was no antimicrobials available, right? So they were looking for compounds out there that could treat these kinds of infections because nothing existed. And so they realized that methylene blue, it actually got the name of a magic bullet at the time, could treat pathogens, could kill pathogens at high doses, but it would not harm the normal the human host, right?

And that was like the best thing ever that we that they could find because either they could find compounds that would kill you and kill the you know kill the pathogen too but that's not very helpful or um they would kill the they wouldn't be strong enough to be an antimicrobial. Right. So methane blue was the first drug registered with the FDA in 1897. Oh no. Yeah. So it was a very naent FDA and it was the first fully synthetic drug too. So it's not something that comes from nature directly and that also gives it a little bit of like you know some controversy in the world of medicine and alternative medicine right even you with my dad and he uses it in clinical practice but I like to remind people that synthetics and things are not necessarily bad for you just like natural things are not necessarily good for you like you can forage for the wrong mushrooms and die well I think the value of natural things is uh we have they have a long history of being used this is a synthetic that's been used for long time long time long time over a hundred years leech into somebody's wound like how did this like so they were doing cellular testing on malaria actually and they found that malaria specifically you know us white people going down to Africa and getting malaria you know we would die right um and so this particular compound methylene blue could give it very high high doses of methleene blue and it would kill malaria and they saw it in cellular culture oh wow wow wow and so then they realized well what else can it do so between 1897 and 1950 or so It was like the premier antimicrobial and by the way it still [ __ ] works but it doesn't it wasn't as sexy because you had penicellin and other drugs that came out in the 1950s which is very important important important which by the way if you go to the hospital now there's a condition now that they'll give you introvenous what what is it that it's called met hemoglobinia.

Okay. Okay. Okay. And this is a particular And this is a particular condition where condition where condition where your red blood cells can't carry oxygen. Okay. It's typically because you've been had an overdose or a poisoning like you guys know like the huffer people like huffing glow or huffing paint that has something called sodium nitrite in it and that is colorless and tasteless but it actually prevents you from carrying oxygen on your red blood cells. So methylene blue is the antidote for that for medigloidemia and it's also the antidote for cyanide poisoning.

So if you're going to Russia anytime soon, you know, make sure you bring it with you. Um because what it does, so cyanide actually destroys part of the those electron protein complexes that I was talking about. It destroys complex 4. And so if you get methylene blue on board though, methane blue does all these kind of ninja moves on your electron transport chain to bypass blockages or bypass areas that aren't working. And that's what makes it so powerful is that because so many people are walking around with mitochondria that don't work well, especially complex one and complex 2, which are the main complexes that take electrons from your food.

So if you've had a chronic infection, if you know you're diabetic, if chronic stress, pesticide exposure, um so many different things can affect those first couple complexes and affect the capacity for meth for your energy production to happen. So short story with methylene blue is that between 1897 1950 fantastic antimicrobial it only had one you know major side effect which you guys have all experienced blue blue blue pee yes blue urine and so there's actually even stories uh songs in World War II if you World War II and you were shipped off to the Pacific you were taking methylene bopylactically to prevent fungal infections while you were in the jungles of some of the the tropical islands in the South Pacific And it was calling they said going blue in the L right with all the English people going blue in the L.

So L. So L. So there you go. But in the 1950s when antimicrobials came around that were prescribed it became less used in that way. Although it works fantastically well as an antimicrobial and still does and I use it that way now especially for urinary tract infections actually. Um because methane blue makes your urine blue concentrates in the bladder. It it breaks up bofilms. It's an antimicrobial at high doses, but at lower doses around like four to about 25 milligrams, it's a fantastic mitochondrial support. And we know that from the last several decades of research.

Um, there's a researcher at the University of Texas Austin. His name is Francisco Gonzalez Lima. And he's done a lot of work on Alzheimer's models, traumatic brain injury, stroke, um, and others looking at how methylene blue concentrates in the mitochondria and optimizes mitochondrial function. And it does this very effectively and very very quickly. It's not like you take methylene blue and you wait a month for it to start working. It starts starts starts that day. that day. that day. Yeah. It should be within 3 to 5 days of taking it.

If it doesn't work at that dose, you go up on the dose, right? And so there the higher doses like a milligram per kilogram, which is like 50 to 70 milligrams or a little bit higher, maybe up to 2 milligrams per kilogram for an acute infection. Like that is a fantastic way to use it. But for the most part, I'm using it at lower doses, four to 25 milligrams on a regular basis for the whole spectrum. So people that are super sick and need need that bridge, that support, but also on the endurance side because it increases aerobic capacity.

aerobic capacity. aerobic capacity. It works can work just like oxygen in your cells too. So you can maintain aerobic capacity for longer. And the first time I realized this, I was working with a patient, this southern lady. I can't do her accent, but she's from like Alabama and she's like, "Dr. Scott, I can't stop working out with this stuff because it's so great." I'm like, "Well, what what's so great about it?" She's like, "Well, I can maintain my heart rate up for longer without having to stop." And I work with a guy that did the Leadville race, the ultramarathon where I live in Colorado, and he cut three hours off of his time using methylene blue 32 milligrams every four hours.

four hours. four hours. So, how are we how are you measuring the the success of the dose? Like, so like you decide how do you figure that out? And then we know like, oh, this is working well. We don't need to go up or like how do you figure that out? So, a lot of it's going to be how you feel, right? But but you can also look at metrics like heart rate capacity like are you maintenance of heart rate for longer if you're doing aerobic work.

There's some studies that were did on dogs specifically looking at lactate threshold and so that you reach your lactate threshold later if you have methane blue on board because it's able to maintain aerobic capacity for longer. So a lot of it's going to be subjective which which means that how do you feel when you're doing certain things and then looking at various markers. But like what's weird about it is that you can give somebody methylene boo in the morning and they sleep better at night. Well, why?

Right, is because they're getting better mitochondrial support during the day and then you see their HIV go up at night as well when they're sleeping. It's the same deal because you can see how when you give more mitochondrial support, the system starts being able to calm itself down because it's now like, okay, now I'm having enough support here, it's not trying to fuel with stress uh hormones and stress all the time. Right. Exactly. And so it's the mitochondria able to relax like the there's this thing called the cell danger response which you guys have probably heard of where where the the whole system goes into this sort of shutdown hibernation mode especially the mitochondria if there's too much stress in the system your cortisol people right the what happens instead of the mitochondria making more energy they actually make less but if you can flip it out of the cell danger response then it starts being able to make more and that's why like I was you know I've been shocked over the years like I had a guy a colleague of mine he's like I've had anxiety all my life I took methyl blue and it went away.

And I was like, "Huh? Well, what's up with that?" Well, really, because what his anxiety really was a representation of was mitochondrial stress, right? And when we giving him more support, then he's his mitochondria able to like flip back over into a more healthy way of of optimizing energy production. energy production. energy production. Now, there's a lot of things that uh are marketed to us today about mitochondrial health. Uh an example, red light therapy. therapy. therapy. Uh is there added benefits of pairing it with this?

Like I mean and so like what would what what what if I you were giving me all the things to do that what would a stack or all the you know what you would prescribe to me? Yeah. All the things there's lots of things that can be there. What I would say is there is a significant synergy between methylene blue and red light. That's been well described because methylene blue can donate electrons basically help with energy production at all the complexes but especially complex 4 which is called cytochrome oxidase and red light therapy about 680 nmters well established as donating photonic electronic energy to complex 4 as well.

And so that combination is very powerful. So you you can take your methylene blue 45 minutes or an hour later 45 minutes to an hour later you go outside in the sun you know red lights red lights in the sun everybody don't you don't have to have a panel or you can go in front of your panel if you have one too that's a great synergy now at higher doses like you can use it as as a compounding for infection as well for especially for viral infections so you give your methylene blue higher doses you go out in the sun this is what I was doing four or five years ago without telling anybody that I was doing it and seeing significant benefit Um and a lot of my clinician you know colleagues were so antimicrobial also for viral infection.

infection. infection. Antiviral too. Antiviral too. Antiviral too. Wow. Okay. Now methyline blue is also an MAO inhibitor. It's actually a quite strong one. So it so let's talk about that for a second. Yeah. So MAO is a monominease inhibition. Yes. It's so that what that means is that methane blue prevents the breakdown of norepinephrine and serotonin and at higher doses dopamine. Okay. Okay. Okay. And so that means there's more of that around but it's dose dependent. So lower doses of methane blue are going to do a little bit.

little bit. little bit. Higher doses are going to do it more. But it's something you have to be aware of. of. of. Um But you have people that are on things like SSRIs and and you know serotonin reuptake inhibitors. These are anti-depressants. anti-depressants. anti-depressants. Yeah. You don't want to combine them. So you don't typically want to do that. The risk is very low to actually do it. But I recommend doing with a practitioner. practitioner. practitioner. Okay. Okay. Okay. The the the risk that they talk about all the time is something called serotonin syndrome.

Yep. Which is not something that any doctor has really ever seen in their clinical practice. practice. practice. Happened to me. Yeah. I was stupid. I did I did methylin blue with tesen which is a peptide. Well, you could buy it as as a peptide, which is a norepinephrine serotonin dopamine reuptake inhibitor. Okay. And so and I just started sweating like a like a maniac. You started sweating like real bad. Like I went to hospital like drenching and I so I went to the hospital. So I I'm like, "Oh, is this serotonin syndrome?

It might be." So I went there, had the shivers, the whole deal. And then I it was a few hours later I was okay. How much methling blue do you take? Um I probably 16 millig but the teslenin was I don't remember what that must have been a pretty strong sn you did a high dose of tesens because you were upset you how high of a do that must have been it because usually the only time I've the only studies that they've shown causing serotonin syndrome with methylene blue have been IVmethylene blue IVmethylene blue IVmethylene blue oh wow which is a high dose yeah which you know it doesn't have to be high but it gets the gets to the body really really quickly right and then when people start taking methylene even at low doses one of the things that most people say that they feel like slightly funny like a little bit like off a little bit different.

That's usually because of the neuropepinephrine and dop and serotonin, but the neurop the the dopamine doesn't happen much until much higher higher doses of methane. Yeah, but it but yeah, that was uh again that combined two things I put. So, this is just aware because it it works. It actually does work and so you want to always be careful with things that work and combining it with other things. Yeah, but I have integrative psychiatrists that are weaning their patients off of SSRIs of the world, SNRIs, and using methylene blue instead.

I was just going to say so because here's one of the other things uh and I don't even know if we can necessarily talk about this but I know a lot of people who use methyline blue as an anti-depressant because it lifts their mood mood mood and what is mental health issues like depression really at their core it's a mitochondrial issue right I mean we know this it's a it's a gut issue it's a mitochondrial you have all these books that like fix your gut and your depression goes away optimize your diet or start exercising and depression goes away right so there is a there we know 100% like when I went to medical school I learned that if you were depressed, it was a serotonin deficiency, you know, and that's complete [ __ ] There's no evidence at all.

But, you know, actually, there's more evidence that there's a GABAurgic aspect to here. So, GABA is our primary breaks of the brain and GABA deficiencies associated with depression, depression, depression, but low serotonin levels are not, right? And so, we know that the mitochondria are the big part here, right? So, understanding how you can optimize mitochondrial function is key. Understanding why the mitochondria are under stress is also key. Is it toxic exposure? Is it synthetic dominance? Is it medications people are taking? Is it infections? Like there's all these other things that it can be, right?

So you have to think about the roots. We talked about the root causes. But then if you just focus on optimizing mitochondrial function first function first function first and the additional benefit with methylene blue, you do have some mild increase in serotonin and and norepinephrine as well, right? But it is dose dependent typically. How how does it compare if you uh and I know like it sounds like you use this to get the the client going, jump started, and then of course nutrition, exercise is key, right?

For sure. Now, how does it compare though head-to-head with that just a better diet and strength training because we know that's obviously incredible for mitochondrial health. So, how does it compare? My goal always with people is like let's get you on some methane blue if you need it now and then over time as you optimize your diet, as you optimize your lifestyle and your exercise, you need it less. You know, I was talking to our mutual friend Thomas Dau just a couple week a couple days ago and I was like he takes it two or three times a week, right?

when he has like a bigger day, more stress, you're traveling, like if if you're well optimized, you don't need to take it every day. But if you're traveling, like let's talk about an airplane, right? Airplane, you're pressurized on a plane to 8,000 ft above sea level. As soon as that cabin door closes, you get tired. You want to take a nap, right? Because you just became hypoxic all of a sudden, right? And I'm, you know, for me, when I I live in Colorado, it's glorious getting on an airplane and coming to the other places that I go because it's mostly sea level.

So my or you know, my ring loves me, right? um because I'm always, you know, at sea level and I have 21% oxygen in the air. Where I live, it's about 17% oxygen in the air. When you're on an airplane, you're about that, too. About seven or 17 18%. And so that's a hypoxic stress almost right away. So taking methylene blue before you get on an airplane is like transformative for people, right? Because even if you're mitochondrially healthy, right, that's still significant stress. So you use it as like a pre travel stack that you can use, it is transformative, right?

So all of my patients That's a great hack. That's so great. I'm going to use that cuz I travel uh all fly quite a bit for the company and I always don't feel good if I'm on a plane and so and I've never thought to use methyline blue beforehand. beforehand. beforehand. Yeah. Before and during depending how long the flight's going to be. So I have people dose every it's the halfife is about four hours. So if you have a flight that's 10 hours you're dosing every four hours while you're on the plane.

You just want to modulate your dose depending on sleep right and then you also want to try to you know meet the time zone that you're going to go to. But then you can also use gabberurgic things. you know, we have other things that we use to help people. What you're what you're saying about mitochondria, I think now um lots of data supporting this. Like some people might not even be aware, but there's all these studies now they're coming out like creatine they're showing it's got anti-depressant effects.

Why? Because it it helps with ATP production. Uh we know a ketogenic diet sometimes has this effect not because uh there's magic in the diet, but because producing ketones is just a cleaner, I guess, for lack of a better term way of producing energy. If you've got kind of dysfunctional mitochondria, suddenly you feel like, "Oh, wow. It feels so much better." Well, it's because you've just switched energy sources and you have something different. So, um, yeah, mitochondri is like it looks like medicine is kind of moving in this direction where they're all looking, okay, what's what's going on with the mitochondria?

mitochondria? mitochondria? It's it's you know, it's called cellular medicine. sometimes it's called mitochondrial medicine mitochondrial medicine mitochondrial medicine but it's absolutely happening because we used to think you know these mitochondria you know when I I was just my daughter was 15 she just took science and she learned about the cell and then you have a nucleus and you have the mitochondria you have the gogi bodies there's just one mitochondria in that cell that you learn about then you learn that there's some cells like we were talking about eggs and sperm that have thousands neurons thousands of mitochondria per cell and they're not just making energy they are there's a whole new world of talking about like mitoric medicine you're going to be hearing and it's going to be all about the mitochondria are these gating and sensing organs in your in your cells your nucleus yeah they're kind of important but they're not as important the mitochondria is what we're I mean obviously it's where all your DNA and everything but then also as Dr.

Dr. Ted likes to always remind me like where is the brain of your cell? It's not your not your nucleus. It's actually the cell membrane itself. The cell membrane itself is sensing everything. everything. everything. Has to decide what to let in, what not to let. to let. to let. Exactly. So the cell membrane. So that's why we talk about phospholipids. We're talking about you know oxidative stress because you can see all signs of this in the lipid membranes as well. Then of course the trans fat arguments and all those thankfully those are gone for the most part.

Now what's the role of mitochondrial dysfunction in cancer? It's a big one, right? Because if you you think about cancer, cancer is an endstage process that's happened because of poor terrain or poor foundational health, right? If your immune system optimized, like we're making cancer cells right now, all of us, every second of every day, but our immune system knows most of the time, amazingly, to get rid of those cells, right? But cancer cells are just trying to protect themselves. This is the crazy thing. you there's all these, you know, there's all these ideas of, have you guys heard of like the mean gene like Richard Dawkins stuff?

But like the idea is that all of our cells are really just trying to protect themselves and do what they're supposed to do. And if they need to protect themselves because there's toxic exposure, because there's, you know, sympathetic activation, they're going to do what they need to do to try to survive, right? And that's what cancer cells are doing, right? And so, and a big part of that is the mitochondrial aspect of this, right? Because mitochondrial function, if that starts going down, the whole cell starts going down, too.

M because if you can't sense how much energy needs to be made, you can't sense what you need from a resources perspective, you can overcompensate or you can undercompensate. Right? And this is the thing about, you know, what mitochondria do is that you make new ones all the time, but you're not making them like denovo. They're actually being mitochondrial efficient. You're actually making new ones out of the ones that you already have. And so yeah, making a photocopy of a photocopy. Exactly. And they start to get worse over time.

over time. over time. Yes. Exactly. Yes. Exactly. Yes. Exactly. Wow. Wow. Did you did your work with hyperbaric chambers start your kind of fascination with mitochondrial health? It did actually. Yeah. 100%. Because I realized what you're doing in a hyperbaric environment is you're flooding body with a huge amount more oxygen. Right. And that that sounds great in principle, right? But what that that does is revs up your capacity to make energy if you can and also revs up your capacity to need to detox because the way methyl the way, excuse me, the way hyperbaric therapy works is by creating huge amount of oxidative load, huge amount of reactive oxygen species in the system.

But what if you can't tolerate all that? Right? The idea with all that ROS is that you're creating an impetus for stem cells to get released, the immune system to get activated, to kill bugs, um to to do all these good things to decrease inflammation. But if your system can't tolerate that, then you're going to be in a world of hurt or you might get some benefit, but you're going to go back to the same way you felt before. This is what I kept seeing in hyperaric in medicine.

Like I actually got disinvited from a conference back in the day because my my the title of my talk was going to be please don't put them in the chamber. Oh wow. Oh wow. Oh wow. And I love hyperbaric medicine. I think it's it's it's because sometimes it doesn't but it but it sounds like it's far more beneficial for somebody who's metabolic healthy than it is for somebody who's not. not. not. Right. Or to at least try to optimize for like 3 or 6 months to get the foundation on board.

And that's where that health optimization medicine became a huge piece for me because I was I was seeing people and they weren't getting better. Like I'm like you should get better. Like you have an infection. I'm treating it with hyperbaric therapy. Like this should get better but it wasn't like or they were getting a little bit better but then they just get worse again. Relapse. And I was like, well, this came down to understanding cellular metabolism, understanding energy production, detoxification, and then how could I help them?

Well, I could use this foundational framework called health optimization medicine that takes three or six months to get them better. Work on that, then get them on some methylene blue, which would be really great as a support if and then also working on optimizing their nervous system. So, downregulating their stress response because this is the other thing, right? I was actually just learning about this a couple days ago where there some of the anti-depressants actually are mitochondrially dysfunction. They make the mitochondrial dysfunction more is I found out like early on in my career and and using hyperbaric therapy that some people on certain anti-depressants just would not get better.

get better. get better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just would not. I was like why is it unsyalt you won't get better on using hyperbaric therapy? It was because it was destroying mitochondrial function. Right. And so I found out over the years that if you can really focus on helping people now, you know, and then giving them a ground game that I often say get 60 or 70% better first and then let's get you into the chamber to get you that next 30% more, you know. Um there's other reasons if you're doing performance or recovery, there's other reasons too like that you can just go into the chamber tomorrow or if you have an acute issue.

But in essence, my practice has kind of developed like, okay, hyperbaric therapy is great, but if you really want to see long-term benefit, you need to get 60 or 70% of the way there anyway, right? And then if we do that, do you really need to be in the chamber? Then we can have that conversation, right? I use hyperaric therapy all the time still. But what I'm using on on my ground game for people is like, okay, let's optimize much more complete picture. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Were you guys one of the first ones at prescriptions to use methyline blue or to work with methyline? We were the first company to make a commercial product with Methylene Blue. Okay. Back in February of 2020, so just about 6 years ago. Wow. And it exploded. Yeah. And exploded. You know what's so interesting about it is that before us, you had to go to like a chemistry company or somewhere, you know, to get it. And it was very difficult to find good quality stuff. So, we were the first and it took us about a year longer to launch the company in 2020 than we anticipated, but it took us that long to find a good source of it.

Really the problem with methylene blue is that when you make it, it's often it's made in a lab and it can be contaminated with heavy metals like lead, mercury, cadmium, and arsenic. Is that often the case? Unfortunately, yes. Even so, if you look online now, you can find it everywhere. We were the first company, the only one in 2020. There's like six companies in 2024. Now there's over a hundred companies that are making it now. But the problem is that the quality is all over the map and it's not very good.

And even so there's something called USP grade. So if you go online now, you go on online Amazon. I don't recommend you buy you buy any supplements on Amazon, but especially methylene blue. There's a lot of counterfeits. So much counterfeits, which is crazy. Yeah, it's crazy like millions of dollars worth. So I I always tell my patients, do not buy your supplements on Amazon. Amazon. Amazon. But anyway, so Methylene Blue specifically, um this USP grading it's called like it's that's supposed to be pharmaceutical grade. But the problem with that is that people don't they just put that on the label.

And then we've tested a lot of this stuff as well. It doesn't meet USP rating. And that means it's more contaminated with heavy metals. And the liquids out there are probably the worst offenders because their potency is nowhere near what it says on the label. Like one of my biggest pet peeves is that if they say, "Dr. Scott, I've been taking Methylene Blue 10 drops a day for a week or whatever." And I feel like [ __ ] I'm like, "Well, how much you been taking?" "I'm 10 drops a day." I'm like, "Well, how much is that?" I'm like, "I don't know.

10 drops." I'm like, "Then what are you telling me it are you what are you telling me it doesn't work? What are you telling me? It's making you and then what are you taking? Right? And then so liquids are really difficult because it's like a milligram per like dropper. You don't know exactly how much it is and then it gets on your countertop and you almost have your wife try to divorce you and you knowve I've so the key this is a good trick if you get methylene blue on a countertop it does stain.

Buffered vitamin C. vitamin C. vitamin C. Oh wow. Oh wow. Oh wow. This has saved my marriage at least three times uh in my laundry on my in my sink. Um, so it does work, but the challenge is like finding good stuff is really difficult. Sal, and I found we've tested a bunch of stuff across Amazon stuff, pharmaceutical stuff that you can prescribe. And prescribe. And prescribe. And Scott, I'm not just saying this because we work with you guys. Actually, this is one of the reasons why we work with you guys.

I've tried three different separate fromcriptions. So, three other methylin blue um providers and uh yours was the best has been the most consistent best experience. So, it's got to be that. It's got to be that I wasn't getting either the right dose or there was some other stuff uh in there. Yeah. One of my favorite stories is a guy a couple weeks ago, actually a couple months ago now, he's like, "Yeah, doc, I I bought this methylene blue from a source that says it was made in the United States and it took three weeks to get through customs, you know, the times." And this is the thing.

If you're buying it on Amazon, it's it's so funny how things come back like full circle, right? Because earlier in the pandemic, about six months in, there was this article from the New York Post. It said, "Biohackers drinking fish tank cleaner to reverse their age." That's because because because great clickbait. great clickbait. great clickbait. Well, because methyl and blue were killed. killed. killed. You get methyl and blue is in fish tank cleaner. You don't want to drink fish tank cleaner. Please don't win a Darwin award, everybody.

That's very highly contaminated with heavy metals. But it was a great clickbait headline. That same paper same paper same paper eight months ago, did a whole article just espousing the beauty of methylene blue and had an affiliate relationship with one of the shittier ones on Amazon. I was like I was like, of course, that's how it's going to go, right? It's ant is it antiarasitic as well? Yeah, antiarasitic. Um it's antimicrobial in general. So we use it for people that have parasites that have dispiosis in their gut that have you know overgrowth of bacteria.

How does it kill? Now how is it antiparasitic and anti do they just not survive the electron transport? Like what's what's what's actually a little bit different. So you guys know hydrogen peroxide. Yes. So we can buy it at the store but our cells make it as an antiseptic. It's it's it's housed in a part of our cell called the lo. Okay. And when we have an infection or if the cell is trying to kill itself because, you know, it's under stress and it's better to sometimes die than to try to survive.

Um, it'll it'll release hydrogen peroxide. So, methane blue releases hydrogen peroxide to help kill these kinds of things. And what's cool about it actually is it it doesn't work like a nuclear bomb as an antibiotic would or an antimicrobial. Like if you take, you know, emoxicylin or augmentin or something else like these are nuclear bombs to your gut. They kill all Yeah. Yeah. And what methane boo is more selective than that. It doesn't do it. it it really does have a more selective capacity. So you can give it in the acute setting and not worry about causing that nuclear bomb kind of picture in the gut.

But you know for the most part we're using it at lower doses like using at 4 8 16 milligrams. 8 eight is the is the for me the the sweet spot. That's where I find uh um where I feel the best with it. So So I was just going to say like so you use your fish cleaner and then your horse dewormer. horse dewormer. horse dewormer. It was it was that time. It was that time guys. Yeah. But so what we do with with quality is that we get our methylene blue from a manufacturer in Japan or Korea.

South Korea for those of you who are wondering. Um I'm not North Korea. Um I have my our CEO Boomer. He's he's married to somebody from South Korea, but they just say they're from Korea. And I was like, wouldn't they say South Korea? I'm like, no, wouldn't it be obvious that they're from South Korea? Like I didn't really think about that. that. that. Um anyway, so we get it from Korea and Japan. And then when it comes in, we we get it with certificate anal certificate of analysis.

It has USB grading. Okay. But then we test it again. So the problem in the supplement industry in general is that they're trusting. You talked about creatine earlier. Like you hear about that creatine scandal. Creatine gummy scandal. Zero. Yeah. Creatine, but they came. Yeah. Yeah. It came with a CFA from the manufacturer certificate of analysis that said creatine in the gummies, right? So you have these companies because you know we have to regulate ourselves in this world as you guys know. Mhm. know. Mhm. know. Mhm.

Nobody else is doing it that they just take that, you know, CFA from that other company from another country. I don't care if it's China. I mean, things getting from China is fine if you have a CFA that is optimal and you test it again. So, with all of our products, we take it that next level and we really say, look, say, look, say, look, yes, this is a trusted manufacturer, but we trust and we verify. And we've had to even throw out thousands of dollars worth of stuff from our trusted manufacturer over the years.

Yeah. Should do you need to take a break on methyline blue or is it something you take daily or take it every other day? Like what's the best way to use it? It depends on why you're using it, right? If you're using it for a bridge because you have chronic fatigue and you're you know you have autoimmune conditions and you have severe mitochondrial dysfunction, you have long COVID or other kinds of conditions where you have you're you're in a pretty bad place or you're in a pretty significantly compromised place, then taking it every day for a little while, okay, okay, okay, or maybe even for months can be okay.

Like as long as you're keeping the dose, if you're taking about 30 milligs or less, I usually say you don't have to take a break because it's super low doses. If you're taking over 30 milligrams a day, you should take at least one day off. If you're taking over 70 milligrams a day, two days off a week, but it's pretty rare to have people on those doses. How would someone know when they're taking the dose that they took too much? Like what do they feel? We're like, "Okay, I got to back off." It's so person dependent.

What I find is that what I like to do is titrate people. So like with the just blue that we have at transcriptions it's it's in a troy form which is like this dissolvable lozenge which classically can be dissolved in the mouth but it can also just be swallowed um and methane blue is very highly bioavailable which means that that that you can take it as you can take it in the mouth you can swallow it you can use it in the IV and almost all of it's going to get in the body of course if it's an IV there's very few compounds that are like that actually but so with methleene blue the way we developed in these troy forms you can take a quarter which is four milligrams and then you try that for a couple days try in the morning on an empty stomach See how you feel.

You don't feel much, then go up to the go after about three days. If you don't feel much, go up to eight. eight. eight. See how you feel. You're like, "Oh." So you can What's your experience? How do you feel when you take Oh, uh sharper. I just have a little bit more energy. Uh you know, verbal fluency is better. I use it before uh big interviews typically. interviews typically. interviews typically. Yeah. Right. And so in your case, I would be, okay, you tried eight. Let's try 12.

Any any difference? You're like, you know what? At eight, a little bit jitterier. Didn't feel as as I felt like it was a little bit too much, you know? And then usually it's like usually it's an extension of how you felt when you felt good, but maybe it's a little bit less good, you know, and so often oftentimes it's not like a more is better kind of thing. Often times I find between 8 and 16 is the dose for most people. people. people. Yeah. If I go up to 16, it's a little edgy is how I would describe it.

So and that's common and that's what I feel like I'm usually around four or eight milligrams. Actually, when I get above that, I get on the edgier side. But sometimes what I'll do if it's a long day is I'll combine it with something that's going to take off the edge at the same time. same time. same time. Like what phenine? I I use one of our other products. I use I use like our GABAurgic stuff. Okay. Um I use our trocom actually because that one has it gives you some anxolytic effect.

So anxiety decreasing takes off the edge at the same time it also uh doesn't make you feel tired. So I like that combination. that combination. that combination. What's in that? Because I saw you you brought that today. What's what is in the calming one? So GABA. What else? So Trocom has something called B3 GABA. Okay. Um, it has cava, CBD, and CBG. Now, the thing about GABA, you guys probably know this, but GABA is our primary relaxing. It's the breaks of our brain, right? It calms things down.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, the it's always in balance with another neurotransmitter in the brain called glutamate. called glutamate. called glutamate. You know, glutamate is our excitatory neurotransmitter, and glutamate actually gets converted into GABA in the brain. So, that's that's 80% of your neurotransmission, just those two. So, you heard about serotonin, norepinephrine, dopamine, that's like the minority of what's going on. Yeah. And the the classic glutamate overload situation is like when you go to a Chinese restaurant and have MSG in your food, right? And so you have what do you feel?

You have headaches, tremors, you're irritable. you're irritable. you're irritable. The problem is that most people again. again. again. What's that? What's that? What's that? And then you're hungry again. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That's the worst. Um the the problem is that most people are walking around with those things. Irritable, you know, me, you know, mood mood instability because most people are walking around GABA deficient. You know, GABA deficiency is associated with anxiety, associated with depression. We were talking about that earlier, is associated with insomnia, mental health issues, and but if you go to a doctor, you know, like a conventional doctor like one of my colleagues, and you say, "I feel depressed or anxious," they're going to give you an SSRI, right?

But we talked about how serotonin is not related to depression, right? But GABA is, but the thing about just, well, could you just take a GABA supplement, right? GABA itself is too big of a molecule to get into the brain. M. M. M. So if you take GABA on its own and you feel great, you have a leaky brain. Wow. Wow. Wow. So your blood brain barrier, isn't that great? Isn't doing what it's supposed to do. And this correlates very dramatically with a leaky gut. So I've had patients that I've worked with over the years.

They're like, "Hey doc, I'm taking GABA. I feel great." I'm like, "Okay, let's do something about that." And because it's diagnostic, basically, if you have and so you but you optimize their gut, they seal it up and the GABA supplements stop working, stop working, stop working, you know. you know. you know. Now B3 GABA is a smaller B3 GABA is different. So B3 has a vitamin B3 attached to the GABA itself. And B3 has a transporter. Got it. Got it. Got it. So B3 hitches a ride, right?

And then in the brain it hydrayes, it breaks apart. So you have mild amounts of B3 which is nascin and NAD and you have GABA. Okay? So that combination is great because now you have the GABA which is relaxing you, but you also have mild activation so you don't feel tired at the same time. And so you get that that that combination is great. And then we have cava in there too. And so the cool thing about how we we developed this is Dr. Ted who's our he's the the founder of the company is this brilliant pharmacologist dude.

Well what if we created a way to enhance the GABA system in the most comprehensive way possible. So when you think about the GABA receptor small biochemistry lesson I promise it's it's a cool one though. So GABA itself is a the receptor has places where things bind. It has where GABA binds that's where GABA would bind right? But it also has other places where things bind like alcohol for example or benzoazipines like Adavan and Xanax or sleep drugs. The problem with those these separate sites where GABA binds to where the GABA receptor to where GABA binds is that they can bind very tightly and enhance GABA to bind very very tightly and then deplete GABA in the process.

So you drink alcohol, you wake up two hours later feeling like [ __ ] That's because all that GABA was depleted very quickly. Benzo, Xanax, all these things that do the same thing. Um, and so you don't want to give something that just increases the amount of GABA to bind without giving a source of GABA at the same time. Oh, so he created something called an oblate pair system or an oblate pair where you bind something to a separate site to the GABA on the GABA receptor and at the same time give something that works just like GABA.

Okay? Or GABA itself. So in in the case of trocom, you have nicoten vitamin B3 GABA and you have cava and cava binds to a separate site on the receptor. It makes you feel drunk. You guys have had cava before, right? But cava itself is also something that can cause tolerance and addiction just like alcohol, just like benzo, just like sleep drugs because it depletes GABA in the process. And so instead what we do is you have a combination of the B3 GABA and the cava together.

So the cava binds and you have the B3 GABA going in. So you have the GABA there too. And so you have this nice combination where you get no tolerance, no dependence, no withdrawal if you and you can take it as needed and you don't feel tired at the same time. What's the what's the dosage look like for somebody? So the comm the trocom dosing is um the B the B3 GABA I believe is 50 milligrams 50 and then you have cava which is 100 milligrams and you have then we have CBD and CBG in there as well.

Yeah. So just a small amount of CBD and CBG and that works on the endockinabonoid system the body's own internal cannabis system you guys and the the there's agarin in there. What is that? Oh so agaran's in um it's in our sleep it's our sleep formula. Okay so what is that? So agarin is from the fly agaric mushroom. Do you guys know the the ammonita mascaria mushroom? I know Justin did, by the way. Off air. Justin like named it right out the gates. I'm like, what?

I know he doesn't. doesn't. doesn't. Yeah. Well, what's his name? Paul Stammit. It's I've listened to quite a few of his podcasts, but yeah, he talks about uh the association there with Santa Claus and like Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. There's a great if people are listening, they can look up the there's a New York Time piece on the idea that this particular mushroom, the ammonita muscary mushroom is the reason why we have Santa Claus. Um because as the stories go in Siberia this mushroom would grow wild and the reindeer would eat the mushroom, right?

Uh because they liked it and it also made them trip balls and uh um and then then people were like, "Oh, what's going on here?" And then then they realized that eating the mushroom itself is toxic. It's neurotoxic, but if they dried it, it would become less toxic. Um one of the ingredients in the mushroom is called ibotenic acid. That's neurotoxic. Neurotoxic, excuse me. The other ingredient is called agarin. An agganine is a long acting on the GABA receptor. receptor. receptor. Oh, Oh, Oh, binds to where GABA would bind.

And so we combine that with another another modulator of the GABA receptor called hanino or hanekyle which comes from magnolia bark. And that combination of hanocial plus agarans in our formula called tro along with six other ingredients that are working on sleep. But working on the GABA system is really really important because again most of us are deficient and if we can put the brakes on for people they start calming down their nervous system and we talked about mitochondrial function. The combination of supporting mitochondria with something like methylene blue short term and then less longterm if you get more optimized and then using something that puts the brakes on.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like your calm and your Z here for me. Then suddenly people can feel like oh that's what it felt like to not always be in stress mode right and doing it in like a very intentional you know safe space if you want to call it that because when people have like their nervous system calm down for the first time they actually get reactive anxiety to not being stressed you guys have probably seen this right somebody's like so like working at such a high level stress-wise and you bring them down they're like holy I'm supposed to be my stress and they get very anxious about it so it's nice to have this link and more of like now here trocom just take it in front of me wow 15 minutes later, you're feeling better.

This is what it feels like to not be in stress mode, right? right? right? Because it works that quickly. Because that's better used in the mouth, the trocom, because it's going to work in about five to 15 minutes. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. And there's a little bit of tingling. You'll know it's working because the cava from the trocom is is cava is a little bit numbing. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And so you get a little bit of a numbing in your mouth while it's happening and then you feel like you're just go down, you know?

I love it because you I'm I tend to be on the stress side of things more too and and like if you have like a lot of meetings like a lot of [ __ ] like you know you just bring it down you know and sounds like an awesome one. I mean we're always trying to teach people I I think this is actually one of one of the missing links too for a lot of people with tech today and the amount of stuff social media all the things that we're on late at night like getting people to have like a bedtime routine.

It sounds like this would be like an awesome supplement to take post dinner as as a replacement for alcohol, right? And like and I talk about it as the parasympathetic edge really. And this is something that actually Thomas and I were talking about on stage once Thomas Dau is like if you can give people especially in the performance world like like let's give you an edge. It's called the parasympathetic edge, right? Because if you have this edge, you're going to perform better with your workouts, with your training, with your recovery, everything, right?

And then like, well, what does that mean? Like, well, it's dropping down your nervous system. Well, how do I do that? Well, let me show you what it feels like. Give me some calm. Let me give you some Z. And then, oh, this is what it feels like. And then, oh, I don't need to train as much because I can recover better, right? Um, I see the benefit. My sleep gets better. And I talk about this a lot with my athletes. It's like, well, and as soon as you finish your workout, what are you doing?

doing? doing? What are you doing? You're going to you're going to go run and go to all your meetings. You're going to go bang things out, you know? or you gonna like give yourself 10 or 15 minutes just to calm the [ __ ] down, right? Because that's going to be a huge difference on how you're going to recover and see the the gains, right? Because you guys know you don't make your gains in the gym. No, we always say the best athletes, right, have figured that out how to be able to get into that calm, parasympathetic state the quickest and most effectively and while they're actually doing the work, right?

So, I have a friend of mine, he's like the only guy that was a professional running back. He was on the Eagles and he was also professional, he was Olympic skier, only guy to do both. And um he told me like when he first was doing skiing he listened to like Metallica and like you know hardcore [ __ ] By the end of it he was listening to Beethoven Beethoven, right? Beethoven Shopan like things that were relaxing because you don't need like we don't need to be more stressed.

We need to be this is not only for working out. This is for like if you want to perform better at your job, right? Like you need to drop down. You can get too amped even for athletic performance. This has happened to me competing in the past where I was so psyched that I would just gas out uh so much faster than I did in practice. Well, they they've done cool studies. I've shared it on the podcast before that like Justin's referring to where they compare like a Steph Curry and with some other random people and there it's a gamewinner like free throw he has to hit and they measure his heart rate and his heart rate is like resting heart rate for the average person like in the middle of a game where he's been running up and down a court.

It's like that ability to be able to do that is so unique and that's cool. I just call it I call it with my patients I call it a superpower like and I and I remind myself this on a regular basis because if you can just if you're so sympathetically dominant what you don't have is a lot of what's called sympathetic reserve right so if you're already going in like this you don't have a lot more you can do right but if you're coming down if you're coming from a very low place the amount of tension you can put on a muscle amount of stress you can put on the system that's where the change is going to happen that's where you're going to see the major like long-term benefit right one of your products has something called cortisepin is that from cortisps yeah Okay.

So, what's what's the benefit of that? of that? of that? Yeah. So, you know the Cortiseps mushroom, right? mushroom, right? mushroom, right? I do. Yeah. Corticps has been known for a long time in Chinese medicine as something that helps with energy, helpsing helping with detoxification. There's a lot of different compounds in the mushroom. There's one particular compound in there that is my favorite compound other than methylene blue at this point. And it's called cortisepin. And cortisepin is the most active portion of the cortiseps mushroom, but it's only 0.03% of the mushroom by weight.

So, a very small amount. And what's very very cool about it is that it's about 100 times more potent as an antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, anti-inflammatory, anti-inflammatory, antiviral, antiviral, antiviral, and it increases deep sleep and you take it at night typically. And it is transformed my my personal health. I I'll say that because I I'm traveling a lot like you guys, right? And whenever you're traveling a lot, you're at high risk of getting sick. And I just don't anymore. You know, knock on whatever wood I have here, but I don't.

And my kids, I have a little bowl of it at my house. They call it the green stuff. It's green colored. anytime anybody's feeling like they're getting sick, they take it. So, you can take it prophylactically. Um, we have something called Trummune, for example. Um, that's one of our products that I take prophylactically if I'm a place that, you know, I have a higher risk of getting sick. getting sick. getting sick. Um, at a lower dose and then if you feel like you're coming down with something, higher dose, higher dose, higher dose, you take it immediately like soon as you start feeling like you get something like you take your rest of your, you know, your your stack of store.

It's not the only thing you take, but you will see a a shift in that whole progression. Like my wife who listens to zero of what I say. She's also a physician. Oh god. Oh god. Oh god. She's one of those people that gets a cold, you know, she gets the usual cold, but then she gets a cough that doesn't go away for like a month and I can't sleep in the same bed as her and like it's the, you know, it's the whole thing. But if I can get her to take the true immune right when she's starting to feel sick, feel sick, feel sick, she doesn't get that whole thing.

Like she doesn't get that cough and like it's better for our relationship, right? Um, and better for my sleep scores too. And so that's such a cool thing about it. And it works like adenosine in the body. So adenosine So adenosine So adenosine adenosine has a lot of different functions. It's an adenosine the main people the way people think about adenosine often time is related to blocking the adenosine receptor. You guys are drinking something on a regular basis. Most of us caffeine does it. it. it.

Caffeine does it. Coffee blocks the adenosine receptor in the brain. It makes us feel more wakeful, right? And so what meth what cortispan does is it works just like adenosine. So it gives you sleep pressure. So it increases your deep sleep too. So you take it at night, it increases your deep sleep. You will see this if you measure your your scores as well. And at the same time, it's giving you antiviral, anti-inflammatory, and anti. and anti. and anti. Can you take it at the same time as the Z and the col?

Okay. Yeah. I want give me Okay. So, this is like a last three months I'm on this like like like mission to I'ming tracking and like trying to trying to trying to I'm shooting for I haven't seen a 90 score ever. score ever. score ever. I got I got one today. Okay. Okay. So, give me give me the the the whole stack uh of what I should take in a day to try and optimize this. I want to know what methylin blue methylin blue methylin blue it's so variable right because everybody's going to be different but what I would say is that you need to have a good enough support from mitochondrial support during the day you have to make sure that you're having times when you're parasympathetic during the day too so you're going so the the most beautiful nervous system is one that dynamically oscillates between sympathetic and parasympathetic throughout the day but the majority of your time is in parasympathetic right the majority of your time should be in chill mode um this is why you like older, you know, tribal cultures, they hang around most of the day doing nothing, right?

And then we're just relaxing and then they, you know, then they're hunting, like then they're fishing, like then they're having sex or whatever it is, like but like they're doing things periodically and sympathetic. So the best way to get the best sleep is have the most regulated nervous system and have the most mitochondrial support. But then you're thinking about, okay, 3 hours before bed, I'm not going to have any more food, right? Typically, you don't want to have a lot of food before you go to bed.

Good 321 rule, right? You got that, right? And then you want to be winding down your nervous system within those 3 hours, right? And so how are you getting more parasympathetic? What are you doing? Are you no TV? Yeah. No TV, no phone. Yeah. Or if you're doing it, I mean, you know, most people are going to do some of that. At least you're wearing protection, right? protection, right? protection, right? You know, not condoms for your face. Like blue. Like blue. Like blue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We should call them, right? Condoms for your face. I thought about that. That's good. Um I should tell my friends that have those companies. Let's call them condoms. Um anyway, so yes, you're you're protecting your face. You know, there's also the idea that you have photo receptors in your skin. So, it in general, it's about trying to keep the lights dimmer, you know, um and then trying not to be too activated before bed. You don't want to do too much heavy exercise before bed if you can.

Like, I'm not a big fan of people doing like cold plunges and [ __ ] before bed. People do this like they go back and forth from hot to cold at night. I don't think it's great for most people. I think if you're pretty well optimized, you can do it, but if you're not, it's probably going to be too stressful to release all those neurotransmitters. And then you're thinking, okay, now 30 minutes before bed, what am I doing? So I, you guys remember Pavlov and the dog and things?

I talk I talk to my patients about salivating for sleep, right? Which is like you do the same thing every single day no matter where you are, no matter what time zone for at least 5 to 10 minutes before you go to bed every single time. And try to go to bed at the same time. Yeah. Every single time. And then if you're stacking in the products, which I do, I'm thinking about our Troy, um, a half of that and a half of our tromune combined together.

Okay? Because, and that's typically about 30 minutes to an hour before you go to bed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can use them as a trophy. You can put them up in the mouth and let them dissolve or you can swallow them, you know, because it's an empty stomach, so it's pretty well absorbed both ways. And then, you know, you go to bed and you go to bed the same way every night. the same sleeping position, the same covers, the same sound machine, the same eye mask.

Like it sounds like a lot, but in the end it's end it's end it's No, no. And I I appreciate you framing it this way because this is what we talk about on the show all the time and this is even what I've communicated. I was just yesterday we're talking about this and there is nothing that had so far that I've been able to do supplement wise or anything else than the things that you listed first like that is getting my good exercise in, making sure that I calm down for shutting all the stuff down, being consistent.

Like I can go four days in a row of that like you just said perfect consistency and I'm scoring in the 80s as soon as I stay up an extra two hours later like that. It doesn't even matter if I had the supplement stack that disrupts the most. So I so I'm doing those things. Yeah. Uh now I want to know what the Yeah. I mean one of the things that that we also like to do and this is help helpful maybe not for you but for those that are listening is that Dr.

Ted who's you know again the guy that I get a lot of my sayings from these days um likes to say that your day starts when you go to sleep not when you wake up. So, make it the priority. Instead of it being the last thing you do every single day, make it the first thing you do. Isn't it ironic that we talk about this too all the time on the show is that we've put so there's so many books about morning routines and so and stuff like that.

We we we and we but yet I would argue that your night routine is far more important way more important than your morning. But we just don't talk about that. about that. about that. Don't talk about it, right? Because sleep is is it's the afterthought, right? And then this is it's been a big deal for I mean, I was in the hospital working for years and getting called at home and like I just wasn't getting you can the thing about it is if you're relatively healthy, you can tolerate this for a while until you can't, you know, and then you start falling off that cliff.

Like, why can't I recover as well? Why is my mood all over the place? Why am I tired but wired all the time? Like, well, because your nervous system is shot and your mitochondria need more support and you can't just think you're going to take a supplement and that's going to be the end all be all, right? That could help you and it could be a good start or it could be something that, you know, in addition you add to the other stuff. Yeah, most people are going to go the other way around, which is like they're going to want a pill first, right?

They're going to want to supplement. And that's what I I tell my patients all the time is like, look, I hope over time you don't need as much of this, but like let's get your nervous system working well or better, like let's get your mitochondria more supported, and then over time as you're getting your diet better, optimized, lifestyle, better, optimized, getting out of a shitty relationship, like, you know, getting a sleep divorce, you know, you guys know sleep divorce, right? Half of us couples, I think, live in different lives sleep in different rooms now.

Is it half? About half. Yeah. Are you serious? Wow. It's like back in the 40s. They have like one bed for sex or they change beds. I don't know how it all get. But there's uh there's also just another hack for people is just getting a separate set of covers. You got We we have sleep eight. So my my wife, which blows my mind, is at 90°. I'm over here at 55. That's crazy. So you have different different covers, different mattresses. You're not like, you know, trying to steal the covers from your spouse, your partner.

That's another way to do it. But like they've actually done studies like if your partner is snoring next to you, you, you, your cortisol rises every time they snore, even if you think you're sleeping all night. all night. all night. Wow. Wow. Wow. Yeah. So, you're not getting good rest. And so, you have to start off with the basics. And so, when I work with patients, it's like, what what's what are the basics for them? It it's either sleep, stress, mitochondrial function, that's all happening at the same time.

The question is where you start, but almost always if sleep is the issue, you start with sleep. Yeah. sleep. Yeah. sleep. Yeah. Because if you can get them to sleep better, everything else is going to get better. This is why I love uh these tools that we have now like Aura Ring is because I think for years as a trainer over 25 years now for us. Um you were playing that guessing game so much where and I and I'm sure there's a major individual variance of what each person feels like with a score of an 80 versus whatever.

But at least gives you a like some a metric that you can go it and it's very clear to me there is a clear difference between you know two three days in a row of 80 scores versus a 67 and a and it is you can feel you can and so I can see that now and then I can see as I apply these habits and routines like what a difference that makes. So yeah, Troy has been great because it has eight different ingredients in there and the problem with most sleep aids out there is that they're just going to trash your architecture, you know?

So your sleep architecture is the idea that you have to go through various cycles while you're sleeping. You have four stages of deep sleep. You have REM sleep. You're supposed to do this every 90 minutes. And then in the beginning of your night, you have more deep sleep. In the end of night, you have more REM sleep. This is typically how you guys if you're looking at your ring, you'll see this. But if you take something like THC, if you're taking like T that trashes your deep sleep, alcohol trashes all of your sleep, right?

And then you know, benadryil or other even melatonin, they're going to give you some. Benadil is going to do nothing good for you, but melatonin will give you like a little bit of help. It's not going to do the whole thing. So people tell tell me like melatonin doesn't work for me. I'm like yeah because you were just taking melatonin that you know that's one of like six different sleep signals like what about GABA? What about adenosine? Like what about um serotonin or melatonin together like you combine these things together.

That's why Troy Troy is so powerful because it has that comprehensive support. And I always tell my patients like look I want you to if you're not sleeping that's the first thing we got to figure out because if that doesn't get better nothing's going to get better. Um, and this is something I've learned over the years, right? Like you can give people expensive therapies and like go into hyperbaric chambers, they'll be like, but if they have sleep apnnea, like doesn't [ __ ] matter. Like or if like if they have terrible stress, it doesn't matter, right?

And so like don't waste your money. And like I tell, and that's why I got disinvited. Like don't don't waste your money on this great technology if it's if you're just going to be doing the same thing that got you where you are, you Well, Scott, I appreciate what you guys do because, uh, um, I'm I'm pretty hyper aware of how sharp I can be because of what we do. Uh, so, you know, if I didn't, you know, have conversations with people or do a show with my partners every single day, um, I mean, it wouldn't make that big of a difference, but I I need to be sharp.

And so, the methylin blue uh product you guys make, that's like one of my favorite things. And it definitely improves my ability to just do this. So, I can't wait to mess with the sleep stack cuz I'm like so into this right now and been tracking. So, it'll be a fun thing to tell how it goes. Yeah. Yeah, I totally will. never scored in a 90. So, let's Yeah. Well, I only get 90s when I come back down to sea level. You know, I got to be safe.

When I'm in Colorado and I come down and I sleep in a hotel room, even if I slept like [ __ ] I still get a 90 because my HRV goes up because I have more oxygen around. So, that's how it typically goes. But yeah, I mean, look, I I love our products because they they really do serve a purpose, which is they help you now now now while you're on your path. And hopefully over the long term, you need them less because you're more optimized and doing the things.

But we're all getting older, too. And we all have more stress on us at times, you know, sleep stress because you have a bad night of sleep, right? You know, or you're on a travel, you're going traveling or whatever it might be. And so, what I love about our company is that I'm a physician. Like, I do this [ __ ] for a living. Like, I'm I'm working with patients. I work with lots of my colleagues that do this all the time. I see what's working. And, you know, my colleague Dr.

Ted and I, we've seen what's working for over 20 years. Yeah. And we know that one sleep stack is not going to work for somebody else and somebody else. And then we have these troies that you can titrate. So you can take a quarter, you take a half. You're not like relegated to a capsule and have to figure out how to take out like half the stuff and figure out if it works for you. And so Troy's are great. They're fast. They're bioavailable. And we have a whole nonprofit organization that trains practitioners on a a different way of doing all this.

So you don't have to be in if you're a physician and you're listening and you're conventional doc and you want different training like we have that for you. Like it's and that's why I feel comfortable talking about the products. It's like because we have a whole ecosystem for people to educate them. And then I say this with absolute truth like if you don't need need my supplements our products going forward. Great. That means you've been well optimized and you don't need them as much. much. much.

Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Well said Scott. Thank you so much for coming on the show. This has been awesome man. Appreciate you. Thank you guys. It's been fun. You got it. All right. I know you like that episode. If you did, check this one out. Walking. It's one of the best things you could do for your health, bar none. But there's a better way to approach it. Yes, you can just walk, but if you follow the right protocol, it's far more effective. Let's talk about walking. I can't wait to hear your walking protocol.

walking protocol. walking protocol. Well, there is. Well, there is a protocol. So, and I'll start with the first thing, right? Cuz just first off, uh let me start with this. One of the reasons why walking um is such a great form of just activity is because it's low risk of injury.