The Media Game Has Changed

One rule of old media's don't be One rule of old media's don't be interested. interested. interested. Like that's the worst thing you can do. Like that's the worst thing you can do. Like that's the worst thing you can do. There is no way to get to anything There is no way to get to anything There is no way to get to anything resembling a story that you're going to resembling a story that you're going to resembling a story that you're going to like through the traditional media like through the traditional media like through the traditional media anymore. Like it's just basically not anymore. Like it's just basically not anymore. Like it's just basically not possible. Old media you had very possible. Old media you had very possible. Old media you had very restricted channels with very restricted restricted channels with very restricted restricted channels with very restricted formats. New media is unlimited formats formats. New media is unlimited formats formats. New media is unlimited formats on unlimited channels and the brand is on unlimited channels and the brand is on unlimited channels and the brand is now the person. The grand wizard of this now the person. The grand wizard of this now the person. The grand wizard of this is Alex Karp. If you watch his is Alex Karp. If you watch his is Alex Karp. If you watch his interviews, he never talks about interviews, he never talks about interviews, he never talks about volunteering. volunteering. volunteering. >> Everybody just naturally thinks inside >> Everybody just naturally thinks inside >> Everybody just naturally thinks inside out, me and my company and my product out, me and my company and my product out, me and my company and my product out into the world. Don't think that out into the world. Don't think that out into the world. Don't think that way. Think in terms of like what are the way. Think in terms of like what are the way. Think in terms of like what are the most interesting things happening in the most interesting things happening in the most interesting things happening in the world and then how do those things world and then how do those things world and then how do those things relate to us? relate to us? relate to us? >> Old media is defense oriented. New media >> Old media is defense oriented. New media >> Old media is defense oriented. New media is offense. is offense. is offense. >> Talk Talk more about why that is. >> Talk Talk more about why that is. >> Talk Talk more about why that is. >> There's still this anxiety that people >> There's still this anxiety that people >> There's still this anxiety that people have which is legacy media somehow is have which is legacy media somehow is have which is legacy media somehow is like where the respectability is, the like where the respectability is, the like where the respectability is, the prestige is. I don't believe that prestige is. I don't believe that prestige is. I don't believe that anymore and I think it's very important anymore and I think it's very important anymore and I think it's very important for people to kind of get that out of for people to kind of get that out of for people to kind of get that out of their system. >> So first I would just want to say it's >> So first I would just want to say it's Gabby's birthday today. You know, I'm so Gabby's birthday today. You know, I'm so Gabby's birthday today. You know, I'm so excited for the next one in five for excited for the next one in five for excited for the next one in five for many reasons, but one is that Ben had many reasons, but one is that Ben had many reasons, but one is that Ben had floor seats to the game six and wasn't floor seats to the game six and wasn't floor seats to the game six and wasn't going to make it today and so we're so going to make it today and so we're so going to make it today and so we're so lucky that we get to have Ben here. lucky that we get to have Ben here. lucky that we get to have Ben here. And uh you know, Mark not a huge And uh you know, Mark not a huge And uh you know, Mark not a huge basketball guy, but he he did tweet basketball guy, but he he did tweet basketball guy, but he he did tweet about how Jaylen Brunson he had a about how Jaylen Brunson he had a about how Jaylen Brunson he had a comment where that he operates purely on comment where that he operates purely on comment where that he operates purely on instincts not on introspection and Mark instincts not on introspection and Mark instincts not on introspection and Mark appreciates that. appreciates that. appreciates that. >> Richard Nixon obviously working. >> Richard Nixon obviously working. >> Richard Nixon obviously working. >> Exactly. Many people are saying you >> Exactly. Many people are saying you >> Exactly. Many people are saying you know, across across industries. And so I know, across across industries. And so I know, across across industries. And so I actually think that's a pretty actually think that's a pretty actually think that's a pretty interesting because one of the rules of interesting because one of the rules of interesting because one of the rules of of new media of new media of new media um um um Mark that we were talking about with the Mark that we were talking about with the Mark that we were talking about with the CEO last week in our growth portfolio is CEO last week in our growth portfolio is CEO last week in our growth portfolio is authenticity and sort of being able to authenticity and sort of being able to authenticity and sort of being able to have the same conversations on camera have the same conversations on camera have the same conversations on camera that you would have that you would have that you would have in person behind closed doors. in person behind closed doors. in person behind closed doors. Why don't you talk about that that a bit Why don't you talk about that that a bit Why don't you talk about that that a bit more and and why that's so important to more and and why that's so important to more and and why that's so important to to really nail in terms of nailing your to really nail in terms of nailing your to really nail in terms of nailing your voice and and how to build that voice and and how to build that voice and and how to build that presence. Because a lot of lot of presence. Because a lot of lot of presence. Because a lot of lot of mistakes that founders will make trying mistakes that founders will make trying mistakes that founders will make trying to be too buttoned up, trying to be too to be too buttoned up, trying to be too to be too buttoned up, trying to be too media trained, etc. As we uncover the media trained, etc. As we uncover the media trained, etc. As we uncover the new rules of new media, what what do you new rules of new media, what what do you new rules of new media, what what do you start there? start there? start there? >> Yeah, so I had this really formative >> Yeah, so I had this really formative >> Yeah, so I had this really formative experience when I was younger. So in the experience when I was younger. So in the experience when I was younger. So in the '90s when I was coming up Ben and I were '90s when I was coming up Ben and I were '90s when I was coming up Ben and I were coming up. And so you know, in in in coming up. And so you know, in in in coming up. And so you know, in in in those days it you know, it's pre pre those days it you know, it's pre pre those days it you know, it's pre pre blogs, pre YouTube, all all this stuff. blogs, pre YouTube, all all this stuff. blogs, pre YouTube, all all this stuff. Um and so in those days you know, the Um and so in those days you know, the Um and so in those days you know, the assumption was 100% of what you did if assumption was 100% of what you did if assumption was 100% of what you did if you were running a company or doing you were running a company or doing you were running a company or doing anything was you you're going to have to anything was you you're going to have to anything was you you're going to have to work through you know, established work through you know, established work through you know, established media, legacy media. media, legacy media. media, legacy media. Um and so and and then everybody would Um and so and and then everybody would Um and so and and then everybody would get you know, of course media you know, get you know, of course media you know, get you know, of course media you know, media trained in how to do it. And you media trained in how to do it. And you media trained in how to do it. And you >> Most painful experience in the world. >> Most painful experience in the world. >> Most painful experience in the world. >> Oh yeah, so for people who haven't been >> Oh yeah, so for people who haven't been >> Oh yeah, so for people who haven't been through media training it's actually through media training it's actually through media training it's actually >> Watch yourself on TV it's a >> Watch yourself on TV it's a >> Watch yourself on TV it's a >> Yeah, so okay, so here's how media >> Yeah, so okay, so here's how media >> Yeah, so okay, so here's how media training work. I I don't know if they training work. I I don't know if they training work. I I don't know if they still still still I don't know if they still do it but do I don't know if they still do it but do I don't know if they still do it but do they do they still do it? You guys still they do they still do it? You guys still they do they still do it? You guys still do it? Okay, do it? Okay, do it? Okay, okay, so for people who haven't been okay, so for people who haven't been okay, so for people who haven't been through it. Yeah, so it's like you get through it. Yeah, so it's like you get through it. Yeah, so it's like you get put in front of one of these camera put in front of one of these camera put in front of one of these camera >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> in your face and then and then somebody >> in your face and then and then somebody >> in your face and then and then somebody like you know, who's supposed to who you like you know, who's supposed to who you like you know, who's supposed to who you think is your friend. Um you know, they think is your friend. Um you know, they think is your friend. Um you know, they do like the full 60 minutes interview do like the full 60 minutes interview do like the full 60 minutes interview with you. And and and you know, whatever with you. And and and you know, whatever with you. And and and you know, whatever and then they you know, they do it for and then they you know, they do it for and then they you know, they do it for like an hour. And then and then they like an hour. And then and then they like an hour. And then and then they literally make you sit there and watch literally make you sit there and watch literally make you sit there and watch it. it. >> [snorts] >> Which is just like the meanest thing you >> Which is just like the meanest thing you >> Which is just like the meanest thing you can do to somebody. can do to somebody. can do to somebody. >> And and critique you and you're looking >> And and critique you and you're looking >> And and critique you and you're looking at yourself [ __ ] it up and they're going at yourself [ __ ] it up and they're going at yourself [ __ ] it up and they're going you see how you [ __ ] that up? you see how you [ __ ] that up? you see how you [ __ ] that up? [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] And you're like well, I'm really And you're like well, I'm really And you're like well, I'm really uncomfortable now. I'm never going on uncomfortable now. I'm never going on uncomfortable now. I'm never going on TV. TV. TV. >> Exactly. And you're like can we just >> Exactly. And you're like can we just >> Exactly. And you're like can we just fast No, you can't fast forward. We're fast No, you can't fast forward. We're fast No, you can't fast forward. We're going to watch the entire thing. going to watch the entire thing. going to watch the entire thing. Um and then and then maybe we'll watch Um and then and then maybe we'll watch Um and then and then maybe we'll watch it again. Um and so it is it is very it again. Um and so it is it is very it again. Um and so it is it is very revealing. And you discover all kinds of revealing. And you discover all kinds of revealing. And you discover all kinds of things about your personal effort by the things about your personal effort by the things about your personal effort by the way. Also you discover all the things way. Also you discover all the things way. Also you discover all the things you do, all the extra words. you do, all the extra words. you do, all the extra words. >> How much you hate your voice. >> How much you hate your voice. >> How much you hate your voice. >> Yes, exactly. How much you hate how you >> Yes, exactly. How much you hate how you >> Yes, exactly. How much you hate how you look. I mean it's incredible. It's look. I mean it's incredible. It's look. I mean it's incredible. It's incredible. And so if your ego just incredible. And so if your ego just incredible. And so if your ego just survives the beating, you go on to a survives the beating, you go on to a survives the beating, you go on to a successful career. Um and so you know, successful career. Um and so you know, successful career. Um and so you know, that's what you did. And and then and that's what you did. And and then and that's what you did. And and then and then but it was always so weird cuz it's then but it was always so weird cuz it's then but it was always so weird cuz it's like the result is just like I just like the result is just like I just like the result is just like I just always struck me as just like the result always struck me as just like the result always struck me as just like the result is like wow, you see like important is like wow, you see like important is like wow, you see like important people with important things to say on people with important things to say on people with important things to say on TV whatever they just seem like plastic TV whatever they just seem like plastic TV whatever they just seem like plastic people. They just seem like you know, people. They just seem like you know, people. They just seem like you know, it's all very you know, fake and staged. it's all very you know, fake and staged. it's all very you know, fake and staged. And then by the way, you know, this is And then by the way, you know, this is And then by the way, you know, this is like you know, in the old days it's like like you know, in the old days it's like like you know, in the old days it's like you know, cuz all all the all the anchor you know, cuz all all the all the anchor you know, cuz all all the all the anchor people or interviewers are all like you people or interviewers are all like you people or interviewers are all like you know, using you know, anchorman voice. know, using you know, anchorman voice. know, using you know, anchorman voice. And then you get a CEO up there who just And then you get a CEO up there who just And then you get a CEO up there who just says like the most innocuous things says like the most innocuous things says like the most innocuous things possible. Um and a lot of CEOs in those possible. Um and a lot of CEOs in those possible. Um and a lot of CEOs in those days and by the way, still they they days and by the way, still they they days and by the way, still they they they they rank their success in in in they they rank their success in in in they they rank their success in in in doing an interview or giving a speech doing an interview or giving a speech doing an interview or giving a speech based on minimum minimum controversy, based on minimum minimum controversy, based on minimum minimum controversy, right? So, they come off stage. I I've right? So, they come off stage. I I've right? So, they come off stage. I I've worked with lots of CEOs like they come worked with lots of CEOs like they come worked with lots of CEOs like they come off stage and they're very proud of off stage and they're very proud of off stage and they're very proud of themselves cuz they didn't make any themselves cuz they didn't make any themselves cuz they didn't make any news. news. news. Right? Um so it's sort of like that. And Right? Um so it's sort of like that. And Right? Um so it's sort of like that. And so so so >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Yeah, that is a key. >> Yeah, that is a key. >> Yeah, that is a key. >> Right. So, I go through the meeting and >> Right. So, I go through the meeting and >> Right. So, I go through the meeting and so so so >> All news is bad news. >> All news is bad news. >> All news is bad news. >> So, I I get we we hire at the time a >> So, I I get we we hire at the time a >> So, I I get we we hire at the time a company we hired, you know, at the time company we hired, you know, at the time company we hired, you know, at the time was considered the best media trainer uh was considered the best media trainer uh was considered the best media trainer uh who was a guy um uh who uh had who was a guy um uh who uh had who was a guy um uh who uh had previously been a producer at at 60 previously been a producer at at 60 previously been a producer at at 60 Minutes. You know, Minutes. You know, Minutes. You know, >> Lee Les Elden. >> Lee Les Elden. >> Lee Les Elden. >> We Lee Les Elden who'd been a producer. >> We Lee Les Elden who'd been a producer. >> We Lee Les Elden who'd been a producer. He actually he was he was actually quite He actually he was he was actually quite He actually he was he was actually quite quite a well-known guy at the time. Um quite a well-known guy at the time. Um quite a well-known guy at the time. Um he had been uh Lowell Bergman's producer he had been uh Lowell Bergman's producer he had been uh Lowell Bergman's producer and Lowell Bergman became uh Lowell and Lowell Bergman became uh Lowell and Lowell Bergman became uh Lowell Bergman No, um well, there I mean, Mike Bergman No, um well, there I mean, Mike Bergman No, um well, there I mean, Mike Wallace it was that whole complex. But Wallace it was that whole complex. But Wallace it was that whole complex. But he's like he's like, "We're not doing he's like he's like, "We're not doing he's like he's like, "We're not doing any of the classic media training that any of the classic media training that any of the classic media training that we do." He said, "We're going to do the we do." He said, "We're going to do the we do." He said, "We're going to do the thing that everybody always under rates, thing that everybody always under rates, thing that everybody always under rates, which is we're going to get you to which is we're going to get you to which is we're going to get you to basically just say all the things in basically just say all the things in basically just say all the things in public that you would say if you were public that you would say if you were public that you would say if you were sitting having lunch with a friend." sitting having lunch with a friend." sitting having lunch with a friend." Right? And I remember like the back of Right? And I remember like the back of Right? And I remember like the back of my head like, you know, just like blew my head like, you know, just like blew my head like, you know, just like blew open cuz it's just like, "Okay." And open cuz it's just like, "Okay." And open cuz it's just like, "Okay." And then you know, and then and then then you know, and then and then then you know, and then and then immediately you're like, "Okay, why are immediately you're like, "Okay, why are immediately you're like, "Okay, why are we paying this guy that And it's like we paying this guy that And it's like we paying this guy that And it's like you know, cuz that's like very obvious you know, cuz that's like very obvious you know, cuz that's like very obvious advice and then it's like nobody else advice and then it's like nobody else advice and then it's like nobody else will give you that advice. What the will give you that advice. What the will give you that advice. What the what's going on?" He just said, "Look." what's going on?" He just said, "Look." what's going on?" He just said, "Look." He said He said He said the following. He said He said He said the following. He said He said He said the following. He said, "If if you are on stage or in He said, "If if you are on stage or in He said, "If if you are on stage or in an interview and you were talking about an interview and you were talking about an interview and you were talking about something and you don't know that topic something and you don't know that topic something and you don't know that topic inside out already, like what the hell inside out already, like what the hell inside out already, like what the hell are you doing there? So, the only thing are you doing there? So, the only thing are you doing there? So, the only thing that you should ever be talking about is that you should ever be talking about is that you should ever be talking about is something that you know you know something that you know you know something that you know you know intimately. If you know it intimately, intimately. If you know it intimately, intimately. If you know it intimately, you should be able to talk about it in a you should be able to talk about it in a you should be able to talk about it in a viscerally interesting uh way. Um you viscerally interesting uh way. Um you viscerally interesting uh way. Um you know, that really relate you know, know, that really relate you know, know, that really relate you know, relates your thoughts on the thing. And relates your thoughts on the thing. And relates your thoughts on the thing. And you ought to be able to come across as a you ought to be able to come across as a you ought to be able to come across as a very interesting person because you're very interesting person because you're very interesting person because you're talking you know, it's just like if talking you know, it's just like if talking you know, it's just like if you're sitting across the table talking you're sitting across the table talking you're sitting across the table talking to your friend. And so he's like, "My my to your friend. And so he's like, "My my to your friend. And so he's like, "My my training is a 100% to try to get you to training is a 100% to try to get you to training is a 100% to try to get you to not do all the other stuff and basically not do all the other stuff and basically not do all the other stuff and basically be able to do that." be able to do that." be able to do that." Um and then you know, the other part cuz Um and then you know, the other part cuz Um and then you know, the other part cuz this you assume the media is this you assume the media is this you assume the media is adversarial. The other part was then you adversarial. The other part was then you adversarial. The other part was then you know, the the forget what he called the know, the the forget what he called the know, the the forget what he called the pivot or whatever, which was basically pivot or whatever, which was basically pivot or whatever, which was basically just the you know, the thing of like you just the you know, the thing of like you just the you know, the thing of like you you answer their questions. You always you answer their questions. You always you answer their questions. You always answer your own questions, which is a answer your own questions, which is a answer your own questions, which is a bit that bit that bit that >> Which by the way makes it a little >> Which by the way makes it a little >> Which by the way makes it a little unnatural, right? unnatural, right? unnatural, right? >> It does. It's [clears throat] the Jedi >> It does. It's [clears throat] the Jedi >> It does. It's [clears throat] the Jedi It's the Jedi but it's the Jedi knight It's the Jedi but it's the Jedi knight It's the Jedi but it's the Jedi knight thing that that made that whole approach thing that that made that whole approach thing that that made that whole approach work, which is it's just like, okay, work, which is it's just like, okay, work, which is it's just like, okay, you're talking naturally. Well, one of you're talking naturally. Well, one of you're talking naturally. Well, one of the ways you talk naturally is you just the ways you talk naturally is you just the ways you talk naturally is you just refuse to answer the the bad questions refuse to answer the the bad questions refuse to answer the the bad questions and you just substitute in your good and you just substitute in your good and you just substitute in your good question. Anyway, so he he went through question. Anyway, so he he went through question. Anyway, so he he went through the whole thing and so then then I you the whole thing and so then then I you the whole thing and so then then I you know, we've been watching the evolution know, we've been watching the evolution know, we've been watching the evolution of the whole you know, the whole the of the whole you know, the whole the of the whole you know, the whole the whole new media landscape for 30 years whole new media landscape for 30 years whole new media landscape for 30 years and it's just like, wow, if you watch and it's just like, wow, if you watch and it's just like, wow, if you watch what Palmer Lucky does or if you watch what Palmer Lucky does or if you watch what Palmer Lucky does or if you watch what you know, what you know, what you know, Alex Karp does or if you watch what Elon Alex Karp does or if you watch what Elon Alex Karp does or if you watch what Elon does or you watch what any of the great does or you watch what any of the great does or you watch what any of the great communicators do, like that's what communicators do, like that's what communicators do, like that's what they're doing. You know, I'd say put they're doing. You know, I'd say put they're doing. You know, I'd say put Jensen in the in the in the in that rank Jensen in the in the in the in that rank Jensen in the in the in the in that rank you know, lately. It's just like, wow, you know, lately. It's just like, wow, you know, lately. It's just like, wow, it's like and and by the way, you know, it's like and and by the way, you know, it's like and and by the way, you know, this is the rise of the long form this is the rise of the long form this is the rise of the long form podcast, you know, the three-hour podcast, you know, the three-hour podcast, you know, the three-hour conversation conversation conversation and and and then just you know, by the and and and then just you know, by the and and and then just you know, by the way, the sort of re-rise of the idea of way, the sort of re-rise of the idea of way, the sort of re-rise of the idea of just like interesting people having just like interesting people having just like interesting people having interesting conversations, which you interesting conversations, which you interesting conversations, which you know, was know, was know, was very [snorts] radical at one point, very [snorts] radical at one point, very [snorts] radical at one point, which is now now a common thing. which is now now a common thing. which is now now a common thing. And so I I think that remains the the And so I I think that remains the the And so I I think that remains the the actual advice and of course Eric, your actual advice and of course Eric, your actual advice and of course Eric, your point what that gets across is is point what that gets across is is point what that gets across is is authenticity, which is like, okay, am I authenticity, which is like, okay, am I authenticity, which is like, okay, am I you know, in addition to what's being you know, in addition to what's being you know, in addition to what's being said, do I actually as the viewer said, do I actually as the viewer said, do I actually as the viewer audience, do I actually feel like I'm audience, do I actually feel like I'm audience, do I actually feel like I'm meeting a real person? meeting a real person? meeting a real person? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very good points. Yeah. Very good points. Yeah. Very good points. >> Related >> Related >> Related we've been talking about how old media we've been talking about how old media we've been talking about how old media is defense oriented, new media is is defense oriented, new media is is defense oriented, new media is offense. offense. offense. Talk more about why that is and what Talk more about why that is and what Talk more about why that is and what that playbook looks like. One of the that playbook looks like. One of the that playbook looks like. One of the things we were talking about more also things we were talking about more also things we were talking about more also in that meeting is the importance of of in that meeting is the importance of of in that meeting is the importance of of outside in and situating sort of your outside in and situating sort of your outside in and situating sort of your story within the context of what's story within the context of what's story within the context of what's what's happening externally. what's happening externally. what's happening externally. >> Yeah, so the the the the press in my >> Yeah, so the the the the press in my >> Yeah, so the the the the press in my view and and and reporters get furious view and and and reporters get furious view and and and reporters get furious with me when I say this, which is why I with me when I say this, which is why I with me when I say this, which is why I know that I'm correct. The know that I'm correct. The know that I'm correct. The traditional press legacy press defined traditional press legacy press defined traditional press legacy press defined itself as having two functions, right? itself as having two functions, right? itself as having two functions, right? Which one was Which one was Which one was you know, impartial journalism, you know, impartial journalism, you know, impartial journalism, objective journalism. Sometimes called objective journalism. Sometimes called objective journalism. Sometimes called the voice from nowhere, which meant you the voice from nowhere, which meant you the voice from nowhere, which meant you know, presenting both sides of know, presenting both sides of know, presenting both sides of something. something. something. By the way, under the assumption that By the way, under the assumption that By the way, under the assumption that everything has two sides. And and by the everything has two sides. And and by the everything has two sides. And and by the way, not more than two sides. And so way, not more than two sides. And so way, not more than two sides. And so that there's always something a little that there's always something a little that there's always something a little bit weird about that. But you know, at bit weird about that. But you know, at bit weird about that. But you know, at least the idea of like showing an issue, least the idea of like showing an issue, least the idea of like showing an issue, explaining it, articulating it, letting explaining it, articulating it, letting explaining it, articulating it, letting different spokespeople, you know, for different spokespeople, you know, for different spokespeople, you know, for the different different points of view the different different points of view the different different points of view actually say it. Um, and then they had actually say it. Um, and then they had actually say it. Um, and then they had this the second mission was to speak this the second mission was to speak this the second mission was to speak speak truth to power. speak truth to power. speak truth to power. >> Yeah, that that was the one that got in >> Yeah, that that was the one that got in >> Yeah, that that was the one that got in the way of the first one. the way of the first one. the way of the first one. >> the one that got in the way of the first >> the one that got in the way of the first >> the one that got in the way of the first one. So, speak truth to power and that one. So, speak truth to power and that one. So, speak truth to power and that became the way the way they ended up became the way the way they ended up became the way the way they ended up describing that was it was uh uh com- uh describing that was it was uh uh com- uh describing that was it was uh uh com- uh uh uh afflict the comfortable and uh uh afflict the comfortable and uh uh afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted. comfort the afflicted. comfort the afflicted. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. Uh and of course, you know, at >> Right. Uh and of course, you know, at >> Right. Uh and of course, you know, at this point we we know what that means. this point we we know what that means. this point we we know what that means. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But it devolved into uh power to truth. >> But it devolved into uh power to truth. >> But it devolved into uh power to truth. So, it it's like the press's way of So, it it's like the press's way of So, it it's like the press's way of intimidating you into not saying what intimidating you into not saying what intimidating you into not saying what you thought. Um so. you thought. Um so. you thought. Um so. >> Yeah, the the the the the Yeah, >> Yeah, the the the the the Yeah, >> Yeah, the the the the the Yeah, they right cuz there's a line between they right cuz there's a line between they right cuz there's a line between like it's a line between actually like it's a line between actually like it's a line between actually objective and then and then and then objective and then and then and then objective and then and then and then activist, right? So, somebody with a uh activist, right? So, somebody with a uh activist, right? So, somebody with a uh somebody with an agenda. Um and so I I somebody with an agenda. Um and so I I somebody with an agenda. Um and so I I think I'm my view is what happened over think I'm my view is what happened over think I'm my view is what happened over time is that that second one just like time is that that second one just like time is that that second one just like swamped the first one and then it just swamped the first one and then it just swamped the first one and then it just became the thing and and then as a became the thing and and then as a became the thing and and then as a consequence, like just the the very consequence, like just the the very consequence, like just the the very nature of the interaction changed. Now, nature of the interaction changed. Now, nature of the interaction changed. Now, yeah, I mean, the short version is I I, yeah, I mean, the short version is I I, yeah, I mean, the short version is I I, you know, I I did tons of traditional you know, I I did tons of traditional you know, I I did tons of traditional media between 1994 and 2017. And you media between 1994 and 2017. And you media between 1994 and 2017. And you know, every once in a while there's the know, every once in a while there's the know, every once in a while there's the hit piece or bad, you know, bad faith hit piece or bad, you know, bad faith hit piece or bad, you know, bad faith thing or whatever, but like I don't thing or whatever, but like I don't thing or whatever, but like I don't know, 90% of the time I felt like it had know, 90% of the time I felt like it had know, 90% of the time I felt like it had been a good idea to do it and I felt been a good idea to do it and I felt been a good idea to do it and I felt like, you know, I'd been given a a like, you know, I'd been given a a like, you know, I'd been given a a chance to tell tell my thing. chance to tell tell my thing. chance to tell tell my thing. By the way, for for almost that entire By the way, for for almost that entire By the way, for for almost that entire run, most people in the country and in run, most people in the country and in run, most people in the country and in the press thought starters were kind of the press thought starters were kind of the press thought starters were kind of cool and tech was kind of cool and kind cool and tech was kind of cool and kind cool and tech was kind of cool and kind of fun and it was kind of good for of fun and it was kind of good for of fun and it was kind of good for America that there were these tech America that there were these tech America that there were these tech companies and the products were kind of companies and the products were kind of companies and the products were kind of fun to use. fun to use. fun to use. >> I I I kind of remember those days. >> I I I kind of remember those days. >> I I I kind of remember those days. >> Yeah, yes, in the in the in the ancient >> Yeah, yes, in the in the in the ancient >> Yeah, yes, in the in the in the ancient mists of the past, you know, they they mists of the past, you know, they they mists of the past, you know, they they just, you know, and it was exci- you just, you know, and it was exci- you just, you know, and it was exci- you know, it was everything was exciting. know, it was everything was exciting. know, it was everything was exciting. And then the you know, then a lot of And then the you know, then a lot of And then the you know, then a lot of reporters and editors and you know, they reporters and editors and you know, they reporters and editors and you know, they they genuinely viewed it as like, "Oh, they genuinely viewed it as like, "Oh, they genuinely viewed it as like, "Oh, we need to like explain this to our we need to like explain this to our we need to like explain this to our readers and our viewers and really readers and our viewers and really readers and our viewers and really really have this come across." And then really have this come across." And then really have this come across." And then as as we like to say, like in 2017, it as as we like to say, like in 2017, it as as we like to say, like in 2017, it things changed. Um and basically since things changed. Um and basically since things changed. Um and basically since then, my view is that that sort of then, my view is that that sort of then, my view is that that sort of second mode of of of being, um second mode of of of being, um second mode of of of being, um you know, which is the sort of you know, which is the sort of you know, which is the sort of agenda-driven, you know, kind of really agenda-driven, you know, kind of really agenda-driven, you know, kind of really took over which which I think and I took over which which I think and I took over which which I think and I think probably will never never actually think probably will never never actually think probably will never never actually unwind. unwind. unwind. Um and so it's just the practical Um and so it's just the practical Um and so it's just the practical reality is we always tell the founders reality is we always tell the founders reality is we always tell the founders like there there is no way like there there is no way like there there is no way um to get to anything resembling a story um to get to anything resembling a story um to get to anything resembling a story that you're going to like through the that you're going to like through the that you're going to like through the traditional media anymore. Like it's traditional media anymore. Like it's traditional media anymore. Like it's just it it it's it's basically not just it it it's it's basically not just it it it's it's basically not possible." Um you know, every once in a possible." Um you know, every once in a possible." Um you know, every once in a while while while >> And you can land a story, but you can't >> And you can land a story, but you can't >> And you can land a story, but you can't run a strategy, yeah. run a strategy, yeah. run a strategy, yeah. >> Yeah, like you there there are also some >> Yeah, like you there there are also some >> Yeah, like you there there are also some people people point to individuals people people point to individuals people people point to individuals individuals with success and I'll just individuals with success and I'll just individuals with success and I'll just feel like, "Okay, that's the you know, feel like, "Okay, that's the you know, feel like, "Okay, that's the you know, that's the exception that proves the that's the exception that proves the that's the exception that proves the rule." Like you know, there's 99 others rule." Like you know, there's 99 others rule." Like you know, there's 99 others um you know, that are not like that. And um you know, that are not like that. And um you know, that are not like that. And so there there just needs needs to be a so there there just needs needs to be a so there there just needs needs to be a new approach. Then I think the new new approach. Then I think the new new approach. Then I think the new approach is comes in comes in two parts. approach is comes in comes in two parts. approach is comes in comes in two parts. It it comes in you know, what as we all It it comes in you know, what as we all It it comes in you know, what as we all call now go direct, which is you have to call now go direct, which is you have to call now go direct, which is you have to tell your own story increasingly through tell your own story increasingly through tell your own story increasingly through your own channels and through the your own channels and through the your own channels and through the channels of allies. And then the other channels of allies. And then the other channels of allies. And then the other thing is you know, new voices and new thing is you know, new voices and new thing is you know, new voices and new media. Um and because because the legacy media. Um and because because the legacy media. Um and because because the legacy press has gone so bananas, press has gone so bananas, press has gone so bananas, you know, obviously there's this just you know, obviously there's this just you know, obviously there's this just massive opportunity that's opened up uh massive opportunity that's opened up uh massive opportunity that's opened up uh you know, for for for the creation of you know, for for for the creation of you know, for for for the creation of new media and it's just like the new media and it's just like the new media and it's just like the examples meant you know, many many of examples meant you know, many many of examples meant you know, many many of them are in this room are just them are in this room are just them are in this room are just spectacular. I think I think with what's spectacular. I think I think with what's spectacular. I think I think with what's happening. Well, it it used to be it's happening. Well, it it used to be it's happening. Well, it it used to be it's actually really funny. It used to be actually really funny. It used to be actually really funny. It used to be even in the golden age media like even in the golden age media like even in the golden age media like Charlie like if you wanted to watch a Charlie like if you wanted to watch a Charlie like if you wanted to watch a smart person talk about something for an smart person talk about something for an smart person talk about something for an hour, it was Charlie Rose. And when I hour, it was Charlie Rose. And when I hour, it was Charlie Rose. And when I was a kid in the '80s, it was Charlie was a kid in the '80s, it was Charlie was a kid in the '80s, it was Charlie Rose midnight. Um it was something Rose midnight. Um it was something Rose midnight. Um it was something called the CBS Overnight CBS News called the CBS Overnight CBS News called the CBS Overnight CBS News Overnight and he was literally on at Overnight and he was literally on at Overnight and he was literally on at midnight and I would and this was like, midnight and I would and this was like, midnight and I would and this was like, you know, pre-the-VCR you'd stay up you know, pre-the-VCR you'd stay up you know, pre-the-VCR you'd stay up until midnight to watch a smart until midnight to watch a smart until midnight to watch a smart conversation. And and to go from that to conversation. And and to go from that to conversation. And and to go from that to what we have today with in in the what we have today with in in the what we have today with in in the podcast world and the Substack world is podcast world and the Substack world is podcast world and the Substack world is just such an incredible advance. Um and just such an incredible advance. Um and just such an incredible advance. Um and going incredibly well. So I think the going incredibly well. So I think the going incredibly well. So I think the new media world is just supremely, you new media world is just supremely, you new media world is just supremely, you know, just incredibly high quality, know, just incredibly high quality, know, just incredibly high quality, doing incredibly well. Um you know, but doing incredibly well. Um you know, but doing incredibly well. Um you know, but but there's still this anxiety that but there's still this anxiety that but there's still this anxiety that people have, which is the legacy media people have, which is the legacy media people have, which is the legacy media somehow is like where the I don't know somehow is like where the I don't know somehow is like where the I don't know I mean it it sounds so silly to say I mean it it sounds so silly to say I mean it it sounds so silly to say anymore, but like the respectability is anymore, but like the respectability is anymore, but like the respectability is the prestige is. And I I always I don't the prestige is. And I I always I don't the prestige is. And I I always I don't believe that anymore and I think it's believe that anymore and I think it's believe that anymore and I think it's very important for people to kind of get very important for people to kind of get very important for people to kind of get that out of their system cuz the world that out of their system cuz the world that out of their system cuz the world has changed. has changed. has changed. >> To your point, so we so we were just in >> To your point, so we so we were just in >> To your point, so we so we were just in Washington and so we were with like all Washington and so we were with like all Washington and so we were with like all the kind of Washington people, senators the kind of Washington people, senators the kind of Washington people, senators and whatnot. And I was asking them, you and whatnot. And I was asking them, you and whatnot. And I was asking them, you know, what does everybody in Washington know, what does everybody in Washington know, what does everybody in Washington read? And it's read? And it's read? And it's the Mark Halperin newsletter, the Mark Halperin newsletter, the Mark Halperin newsletter, um which um which um which is new media. Uh so, it's uh I fully is new media. Uh so, it's uh I fully is new media. Uh so, it's uh I fully expect Axios, the Washington Post, and expect Axios, the Washington Post, and expect Axios, the Washington Post, and so forth. Cuz by the way, the one so forth. Cuz by the way, the one so forth. Cuz by the way, the one holdout from you know, kind of people in holdout from you know, kind of people in holdout from you know, kind of people in the firm on like old media is, well, the firm on like old media is, well, the firm on like old media is, well, except for Washington. They all read except for Washington. They all read except for Washington. They all read this old, you know, stuff. this old, you know, stuff. this old, you know, stuff. And not even that is true. So, so I And not even that is true. So, so I And not even that is true. So, so I think Mark's right. think Mark's right. think Mark's right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Mark, you mentioned um going direct. >> Mark, you mentioned um going direct. >> Mark, you mentioned um going direct. We're certainly in the era now of going We're certainly in the era now of going We're certainly in the era now of going direct. It feels like it's table stakes direct. It feels like it's table stakes direct. It feels like it's table stakes for founders. Um but I've talked to a for founders. Um but I've talked to a for founders. Um but I've talked to a lot of founders who feel that now they lot of founders who feel that now they lot of founders who feel that now they have sort of a second job of being the have sort of a second job of being the have sort of a second job of being the spokesperson for their company on top of spokesperson for their company on top of spokesperson for their company on top of running the business day-to-day. And you running the business day-to-day. And you running the business day-to-day. And you can even think of a lot of great can even think of a lot of great can even think of a lot of great founders who spent their lives or founders who spent their lives or founders who spent their lives or careers careers careers in a lab or staring at a computer, and in a lab or staring at a computer, and in a lab or staring at a computer, and this is not what they've been trained this is not what they've been trained this is not what they've been trained in. So, I'm curious both of your advice in. So, I'm curious both of your advice in. So, I'm curious both of your advice for founders who maybe are uninterested for founders who maybe are uninterested for founders who maybe are uninterested in doing this, or they don't know where in doing this, or they don't know where in doing this, or they don't know where to start. Do they have to get good at to start. Do they have to get good at to start. Do they have to get good at it, or are there other paths for them to it, or are there other paths for them to it, or are there other paths for them to get their company the attention it get their company the attention it get their company the attention it deserves? deserves? deserves? >> Yeah. So, I think this is tricky. So, >> Yeah. So, I think this is tricky. So, >> Yeah. So, I think this is tricky. So, if you if you just go, okay, old media, if you if you just go, okay, old media, if you if you just go, okay, old media, and how did that work in new media? So, and how did that work in new media? So, and how did that work in new media? So, old media, old media, old media, um um um you had like very restricted channels you had like very restricted channels you had like very restricted channels with very restricted formats, with very restricted formats, with very restricted formats, um and the brands were the companies. um and the brands were the companies. um and the brands were the companies. So, like that that that's basically the So, like that that that's basically the So, like that that that's basically the setup. So, you yes, you could talk to setup. So, you yes, you could talk to setup. So, you yes, you could talk to the New York Times or CNN or whatever if the New York Times or CNN or whatever if the New York Times or CNN or whatever if you wanted to get the word out, um but you wanted to get the word out, um but you wanted to get the word out, um but then you were forced into like a quote then you were forced into like a quote then you were forced into like a quote or a very short interview or something or a very short interview or something or a very short interview or something like that. And then you were like that. And then you were like that. And then you were representing representing representing um um um a brand that wasn't you, and that's just a brand that wasn't you, and that's just a brand that wasn't you, and that's just kind of how it worked. kind of how it worked. kind of how it worked. And so, the whole media strategy, And so, the whole media strategy, And so, the whole media strategy, basically, was just get your name out basically, was just get your name out basically, was just get your name out there without there without there without tainting the company to the point where tainting the company to the point where tainting the company to the point where like it could never recover. Uh which is like it could never recover. Uh which is like it could never recover. Uh which is kind of how you got into this very kind of how you got into this very kind of how you got into this very defensive posture cuz you you can never defensive posture cuz you you can never defensive posture cuz you you can never take back anything. That was like a big take back anything. That was like a big take back anything. That was like a big rule in old media. Then you get to new rule in old media. Then you get to new rule in old media. Then you get to new media media media and new media is and new media is and new media is so the opposite in that it's unlimited so the opposite in that it's unlimited so the opposite in that it's unlimited formats, unlimited channels, and the formats, unlimited channels, and the formats, unlimited channels, and the brand is now the person. So, it's not brand is now the person. So, it's not brand is now the person. So, it's not like like like were people talking about like when were people talking about like when were people talking about like when every Democrat came out and was mad every Democrat came out and was mad every Democrat came out and was mad about SpaceX, they weren't they were mad about SpaceX, they weren't they were mad about SpaceX, they weren't they were mad about Elon cuz he's a brand. about Elon cuz he's a brand. about Elon cuz he's a brand. And the same thing like is is it And the same thing like is is it And the same thing like is is it Palantir or is it Alex? Palantir or is it Alex? Palantir or is it Alex? Um, Um, Um, and is it and is it and is it uh, Anduril or is it Palmer? And uh, Anduril or is it Palmer? And uh, Anduril or is it Palmer? And that's just over and over again. So, the that's just over and over again. So, the that's just over and over again. So, the companies that are winning in marketing, companies that are winning in marketing, companies that are winning in marketing, the brand is the person. the brand is the person. the brand is the person. And And And I guess like if you had another founder I guess like if you had another founder I guess like if you had another founder or somebody who is a really permanent or somebody who is a really permanent or somebody who is a really permanent fixture and not the CEO, you could fixture and not the CEO, you could fixture and not the CEO, you could imagine that person kind of getting that imagine that person kind of getting that imagine that person kind of getting that person off to the to be the brand, but person off to the to be the brand, but person off to the to be the brand, but it's going to be a person. Like I I it's going to be a person. Like I I it's going to be a person. Like I I don't think there's a way around that. don't think there's a way around that. don't think there's a way around that. And then the rule of new media And then the rule of new media And then the rule of new media is it has to be interesting because is it has to be interesting because is it has to be interesting because otherwise it's going to get drowned out. otherwise it's going to get drowned out. otherwise it's going to get drowned out. And so, you have to be it has to be a And so, you have to be it has to be a And so, you have to be it has to be a person and that person has to be person and that person has to be person and that person has to be interesting. Uh, which is why old media interesting. Uh, which is why old media interesting. Uh, which is why old media is so dangerous because the one rule of is so dangerous because the one rule of is so dangerous because the one rule of old media is don't be interested. old media is don't be interested. old media is don't be interested. Like that's the worst thing you can do. Like that's the worst thing you can do. Like that's the worst thing you can do. Um, you'll you'll F everything up. And Um, you'll you'll F everything up. And Um, you'll you'll F everything up. And so, so, so, I I don't think uh, company can get away I I don't think uh, company can get away I I don't think uh, company can get away without it. Now, like if you look at without it. Now, like if you look at without it. Now, like if you look at like us as a firm, like technically I'm like us as a firm, like technically I'm like us as a firm, like technically I'm really the CEO, but like Mark is more really the CEO, but like Mark is more really the CEO, but like Mark is more the brand, I would say in terms of he the brand, I would say in terms of he the brand, I would say in terms of he just does way more media than I do. Uh, just does way more media than I do. Uh, just does way more media than I do. Uh, and that works, but it works cuz it's and that works, but it works cuz it's and that works, but it works cuz it's Andreessen Horowitz and nobody knows the Andreessen Horowitz and nobody knows the Andreessen Horowitz and nobody knows the [ __ ] difference on the outside. It's [ __ ] difference on the outside. It's [ __ ] difference on the outside. It's fine. Um, and there are you can set up fine. Um, and there are you can set up fine. Um, and there are you can set up your company that way where they don't your company that way where they don't your company that way where they don't have to know how you're run. Like that's have to know how you're run. Like that's have to know how you're run. Like that's fine. But it's got to be somebody who's fine. But it's got to be somebody who's fine. But it's got to be somebody who's there kind of forever with there kind of forever with there kind of forever with uh, the organization. It can't be like uh, the organization. It can't be like uh, the organization. It can't be like the vice president of marketing who's the vice president of marketing who's the vice president of marketing who's here for a three-year run and then is here for a three-year run and then is here for a three-year run and then is gone. Like that will never work. gone. Like that will never work. gone. Like that will never work. >> Enron is another example. >> Enron is another example. >> Enron is another example. >> Yeah. Yeah. What one of my favorite >> Yeah. Yeah. What one of my favorite >> Yeah. Yeah. What one of my favorite favorite things that happens about once favorite things that happens about once favorite things that happens about once a week is when I get somebody a week is when I get somebody a week is when I get somebody congratulates me on writing Ben's book. congratulates me on writing Ben's book. congratulates me on writing Ben's book. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> But he always takes full credit for it. >> But he always takes full credit for it. >> But he always takes full credit for it. >> I do. I do. I just like I said, I really >> I do. I do. I just like I said, I really >> I do. I do. I just like I said, I really poured a lot of you know, all my blood, poured a lot of you know, all my blood, poured a lot of you know, all my blood, sweat, and tears into that [laughter] sweat, and tears into that [laughter] sweat, and tears into that [laughter] book. I'm just so glad I'm so glad that book. I'm just so glad I'm so glad that book. I'm just so glad I'm so glad that somebody finally read it. Um somebody finally read it. Um somebody finally read it. Um So So So um um um You know, look, so so I think there's a You know, look, so so I think there's a You know, look, so so I think there's a I think there's actually a technological I think there's actually a technological I think there's actually a technological explanation for what Ben said that that explanation for what Ben said that that explanation for what Ben said that that is actually I think quite important. So, is actually I think quite important. So, is actually I think quite important. So, you know, up until basically what was it you know, up until basically what was it you know, up until basically what was it been like the 1930s or something like been like the 1930s or something like been like the 1930s or something like companies were not they didn't have companies were not they didn't have companies were not they didn't have corporate brands. You you you you had corporate brands. You you you you had corporate brands. You you you you had you was the Ford you had you had people. you was the Ford you had you had people. you was the Ford you had you had people. You know, it was the Ford Motor Company. You know, it was the Ford Motor Company. You know, it was the Ford Motor Company. It was the It was the It was the It was the Edison Electric Company, It was the Edison Electric Company, It was the Edison Electric Company, right? So, the the it was just like you right? So, the the it was just like you right? So, the the it was just like you know, name on the it was literally name know, name on the it was literally name know, name on the it was literally name on the door. It just it never even I on the door. It just it never even I on the door. It just it never even I mean, I'm positive it never occurred to mean, I'm positive it never occurred to mean, I'm positive it never occurred to Henry Ford to name his company anything Henry Ford to name his company anything Henry Ford to name his company anything other than the Ford Motor Company. other than the Ford Motor Company. other than the Ford Motor Company. >> Well, [snorts] he did have a company >> Well, [snorts] he did have a company >> Well, [snorts] he did have a company before the Ford Motor Company, right? before the Ford Motor Company, right? before the Ford Motor Company, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which was like Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which was like Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which was like I think I can't remember. Somebody's got I think I can't remember. Somebody's got I think I can't remember. Somebody's got to look it up. I think it became like to look it up. I think it became like to look it up. I think it became like Cadillac or something or like it was Cadillac or something or like it was Cadillac or something or like it was like actually like a a car company that like actually like a a car company that like actually like a a car company that lasted. But he got he was CTO. He wasn't lasted. But he got he was CTO. He wasn't lasted. But he got he was CTO. He wasn't CEO. And he got in such a furious fight CEO. And he got in such a furious fight CEO. And he got in such a furious fight cuz he was a cuz he was a cuz he was a he was a hothead, Henry Ford. he was a hothead, Henry Ford. he was a hothead, Henry Ford. With the CEO that he quit his own With the CEO that he quit his own With the CEO that he quit his own company. company. company. >> Yeah. A lot of those are Chrysler like >> Yeah. A lot of those are Chrysler like >> Yeah. A lot of those are Chrysler like Chrysler was a with the other guys. Chrysler was a with the other guys. Chrysler was a with the other guys. You know, a lot of those a lot of the a You know, a lot of those a lot of the a You know, a lot of those a lot of the a lot of the car early car lot of the car early car lot of the car early car >> Oh, yeah, they're all named after >> Oh, yeah, they're all named after >> Oh, yeah, they're all named after themselves. And I I I think actually themselves. And I I I think actually themselves. And I I I think actually maybe it was like Ford and then he when maybe it was like Ford and then he when maybe it was like Ford and then he when he quit they renamed it. That that could he quit they renamed it. That that could he quit they renamed it. That that could be it. Yeah, yeah. be it. Yeah, yeah. be it. Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, something else. Yeah. So so it was >> Yeah, something else. Yeah. So so it was >> Yeah, something else. Yeah. So so it was like it was like name on the door. like it was like name on the door. like it was like name on the door. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um it was just kind of just taken as as >> Um it was just kind of just taken as as >> Um it was just kind of just taken as as as a given cuz like that's the guy as a given cuz like that's the guy as a given cuz like that's the guy running the company. That's that's running the company. That's that's running the company. That's that's that's what you do. And then I I think that's what you do. And then I I think that's what you do. And then I I think what happened is in the '30s, '40s you what happened is in the '30s, '40s you what happened is in the '30s, '40s you started getting these, you know, started getting these, you know, started getting these, you know, International Business Machines, General International Business Machines, General International Business Machines, General Electric, General Motors. General Electric, General Motors. General Electric, General Motors. General Motors. You started getting these these Motors. You started getting these these Motors. You started getting these these these abstract names. Then you and then these abstract names. Then you and then these abstract names. Then you and then you got the consumer brand thing, you you got the consumer brand thing, you you got the consumer brand thing, you know, with like Procter & Gamble. So you know, with like Procter & Gamble. So you know, with like Procter & Gamble. So you had like Tide and Colgate and you know, had like Tide and Colgate and you know, had like Tide and Colgate and you know, Crest toothpaste and all and a the and Crest toothpaste and all and a the and Crest toothpaste and all and a the and these things. The nifty 50 the these things. The nifty 50 the these things. The nifty 50 the conglomerate area. Which led you right, conglomerate area. Which led you right, conglomerate area. Which led you right, which led to the conglomerates which which led to the conglomerates which which led to the conglomerates which were basically just piling up as many were basically just piling up as many were basically just piling up as many many brands as you could. And I and I many brands as you could. And I and I many brands as you could. And I and I think what happened was in retrospect, I think what happened was in retrospect, I think what happened was in retrospect, I think that was because of the rise of think that was because of the rise of think that was because of the rise of centralized media specifically. Cuz centralized media specifically. Cuz centralized media specifically. Cuz before the 1930s like media was very before the 1930s like media was very before the 1930s like media was very decentralized. Like every town had like decentralized. Like every town had like decentralized. Like every town had like 15 newspapers. There were like tiny 15 newspapers. There were like tiny 15 newspapers. There were like tiny little radio stations everywhere. little radio stations everywhere. little radio stations everywhere. And then you know, starting in the 30s And then you know, starting in the 30s And then you know, starting in the 30s or 40s media centralized hard. You know, or 40s media centralized hard. You know, or 40s media centralized hard. You know, in a way that was very in a way that was very in a way that was very unprecedented historically. And and and unprecedented historically. And and and unprecedented historically. And and and probably what once once once once in a probably what once once once once in a probably what once once once once in a you know, it's probably [snorts] once in you know, it's probably [snorts] once in you know, it's probably [snorts] once in a thousand year thing that that a thousand year thing that that a thousand year thing that that happened. And then and then the thing happened. And then and then the thing happened. And then and then the thing with centralized media was just it's with centralized media was just it's with centralized media was just it's like it's like drinking everything like it's like drinking everything like it's like drinking everything through an incredibly narrow straw. Cuz through an incredibly narrow straw. Cuz through an incredibly narrow straw. Cuz there's just like by definition if there's just like by definition if there's just like by definition if there's three TV networks and there's 24 there's three TV networks and there's 24 there's three TV networks and there's 24 hours in the day, there's just only ever hours in the day, there's just only ever hours in the day, there's just only ever like how much time are you ever going to like how much time are you ever going to like how much time are you ever going to get? Or if there's the front page of you get? Or if there's the front page of you get? Or if there's the front page of you know, three big newspapers, how many know, three big newspapers, how many know, three big newspapers, how many column inches are you ever going to get? column inches are you ever going to get? column inches are you ever going to get? And so the the message from any company And so the the message from any company And so the the message from any company had to get distilled down to the had to get distilled down to the had to get distilled down to the absolute minimum to be able to get absolute minimum to be able to get absolute minimum to be able to get through those very narrow straws. And I through those very narrow straws. And I through those very narrow straws. And I and I think that that was the corporate and I think that that was the corporate and I think that that was the corporate brand phenomenon which is to get the brand phenomenon which is to get the brand phenomenon which is to get the thing down to like an atomic unit of a thing down to like an atomic unit of a thing down to like an atomic unit of a brand to be able to get it through to brand to be able to get it through to brand to be able to get it through to get it through that straw. But I and get it through that straw. But I and get it through that straw. But I and then everybody became convinced that then everybody became convinced that then everybody became convinced that like that was just universally the way like that was just universally the way like that was just universally the way the world worked. But I think that only the world worked. But I think that only the world worked. But I think that only actually made sense. actually made sense. actually made sense. Uh so Uh so Uh so company as company as company as abstract brand with like our corporate abstract brand with like our corporate abstract brand with like our corporate brand like I think that only made sense brand like I think that only made sense brand like I think that only made sense in the centralized media world. And I in the centralized media world. And I in the centralized media world. And I think what we're seeing as the think what we're seeing as the think what we're seeing as the centralized media world is now you know, centralized media world is now you know, centralized media world is now you know, unwinding and collapsing. I I I think unwinding and collapsing. I I I think unwinding and collapsing. I I I think mechanically that's why this new mechanically that's why this new mechanically that's why this new approach is is is working and it and is approach is is is working and it and is approach is is is working and it and is necessary because necessary because necessary because that's why. Because in the new world, I that's why. Because in the new world, I that's why. Because in the new world, I mean, you know, the many examples of mean, you know, the many examples of mean, you know, the many examples of this. But it's just like you know, do do this. But it's just like you know, do do this. But it's just like you know, do do do do people running for president have do do people running for president have do do people running for president have to go on Joe Rogan, right? And you know, to go on Joe Rogan, right? And you know, to go on Joe Rogan, right? And you know, up until 2024 the answer was absolutely up until 2024 the answer was absolutely up until 2024 the answer was absolutely not. After 2024 the answer is 100% they not. After 2024 the answer is 100% they not. After 2024 the answer is 100% they have to. Uh right? Like a big part, you have to. Uh right? Like a big part, you have to. Uh right? Like a big part, you know, for keeping politics out of it, a know, for keeping politics out of it, a know, for keeping politics out of it, a big part of all the democratic big part of all the democratic big part of all the democratic retrospectives of what happened in 24 retrospectives of what happened in 24 retrospectives of what happened in 24 was that was that Kamala didn't go on was that was that Kamala didn't go on was that was that Kamala didn't go on didn't go on Rogan. 100% of the people didn't go on Rogan. 100% of the people didn't go on Rogan. 100% of the people who work in that world now think that who work in that world now think that who work in that world now think that the next person is going to have to go the next person is going to have to go the next person is going to have to go on Rogan. And to go on Rogan means on Rogan. And to go on Rogan means on Rogan. And to go on Rogan means you're going to have to be on Rogan for you're going to have to be on Rogan for you're going to have to be on Rogan for three hours. And you're going to have to three hours. And you're going to have to three hours. And you're going to have to talk about anything. And so if you think talk about anything. And so if you think talk about anything. And so if you think about what that means, right, for the about what that means, right, for the about what that means, right, for the bar, for the person who's going to run, bar, for the person who's going to run, bar, for the person who's going to run, you know, for whatever party, or you you know, for whatever party, or you you know, for whatever party, or you know, for both parties, or any party, know, for both parties, or any party, know, for both parties, or any party, like that that's the new bar. Um you like that that's the new bar. Um you like that that's the new bar. Um you have to be able to do that. You have and have to be able to do that. You have and have to be able to do that. You have and right, you have to be interesting, and right, you have to be interesting, and right, you have to be interesting, and then it goes right back to your then it goes right back to your then it goes right back to your question. You you have to be the person question. You you have to be the person question. You you have to be the person who can do that. And if you're not the who can do that. And if you're not the who can do that. And if you're not the person who can do that, like person who can do that, like person who can do that, like >> Well, you got to it's a big marketing >> Well, you got to it's a big marketing >> Well, you got to it's a big marketing deficit. Let's just put it that way. deficit. Let's just put it that way. deficit. Let's just put it that way. Like like you Like like you Like like you you just put a ceiling on your whole you just put a ceiling on your whole you just put a ceiling on your whole opportunity, I think. opportunity, I think. opportunity, I think. >> The the line from Succession, of course, >> The the line from Succession, of course, >> The the line from Succession, of course, I I can't avoid that. I I can't avoid that. I I can't avoid that. I can't I can't I can't not use answering your question is is it not use answering your question is is it not use answering your question is is it Shiv said, "If you can't ride two Shiv said, "If you can't ride two Shiv said, "If you can't ride two elephants at the same time, what are you elephants at the same time, what are you elephants at the same time, what are you doing in the circus?" doing in the circus?" doing in the circus?" >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I I would love to hear how you apply >> I I would love to hear how you apply >> I I would love to hear how you apply this thinking to your own work. Then you this thinking to your own work. Then you this thinking to your own work. Then you mentioned earlier or you mentioned mentioned earlier or you mentioned mentioned earlier or you mentioned before that you and Mark spend a lot of before that you and Mark spend a lot of before that you and Mark spend a lot of time discussing how and when to respond time discussing how and when to respond time discussing how and when to respond to things publicly and also when to not to things publicly and also when to not to things publicly and also when to not say anything. And so, I'm curious what say anything. And so, I'm curious what say anything. And so, I'm curious what those discussions are like for you both. those discussions are like for you both. those discussions are like for you both. How do you decide when to fight back How do you decide when to fight back How do you decide when to fight back versus stay quiet? And maybe if there versus stay quiet? And maybe if there versus stay quiet? And maybe if there are times that you wish you did things are times that you wish you did things are times that you wish you did things differently. differently. differently. >> Yeah, so I I I mean it it's interesting >> Yeah, so I I I mean it it's interesting >> Yeah, so I I I mean it it's interesting with that because anytime somebody with that because anytime somebody with that because anytime somebody says something negative about us, we says something negative about us, we says something negative about us, we want to respond. It's just like it it want to respond. It's just like it it want to respond. It's just like it it but but but you you have to determine whether like you you have to determine whether like you you have to determine whether like that's going to improve your position or that's going to improve your position or that's going to improve your position or they're just feeding you bait to get you they're just feeding you bait to get you they're just feeding you bait to get you to basically highlight their stupid to basically highlight their stupid to basically highlight their stupid opinion. opinion. opinion. >> It'll always improve your situation to >> It'll always improve your situation to >> It'll always improve your situation to fight back. fight back. fight back. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Yeah, you always 100% >> Yeah, you always 100% >> Yeah, you always 100% You know, you have to have some You know, you have to have some You know, you have to have some discipline, otherwise you just will discipline, otherwise you just will discipline, otherwise you just will spend your whole life responding. Like spend your whole life responding. Like spend your whole life responding. Like the bigger you get, the more people can the bigger you get, the more people can the bigger you get, the more people can at you. So, you know, it's kind of like at you. So, you know, it's kind of like at you. So, you know, it's kind of like the degenerate version is like dealing the degenerate version is like dealing the degenerate version is like dealing with the people who comment on Twitter. with the people who comment on Twitter. with the people who comment on Twitter. Or X, sorry. Like So, the if you start Or X, sorry. Like So, the if you start Or X, sorry. Like So, the if you start answering the X replies of people who answering the X replies of people who answering the X replies of people who have 50 followers, by the way, my father have 50 followers, by the way, my father have 50 followers, by the way, my father always did that. always did that. always did that. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Then like >> Then like >> Then like there's just like a colossal waste of there's just like a colossal waste of there's just like a colossal waste of time and you're amplifying somebody who time and you're amplifying somebody who time and you're amplifying somebody who has no audience. So like what are you has no audience. So like what are you has no audience. So like what are you doing? And then those people shouldn't doing? And then those people shouldn't doing? And then those people shouldn't even be talking to you. Like they didn't even be talking to you. Like they didn't even be talking to you. Like they didn't do anything in life to have the right to do anything in life to have the right to do anything in life to have the right to talk to you. talk to you. talk to you. Um but there you are talking to them and Um but there you are talking to them and Um but there you are talking to them and wasting your time. So like that's that's wasting your time. So like that's that's wasting your time. So like that's that's the extreme degenerate case. Um However, the extreme degenerate case. Um However, the extreme degenerate case. Um However, like if somebody comes out with like if somebody comes out with like if somebody comes out with something and it hits uh something and it hits uh something and it hits uh and it's going after you, that's and it's going after you, that's and it's going after you, that's actually a real op- opportunity to boost actually a real op- opportunity to boost actually a real op- opportunity to boost the brand um to the brand um to the brand um to come across with your own point of view, come across with your own point of view, come across with your own point of view, your own position. And this could be your own position. And this could be your own position. And this could be something in the media or just, you something in the media or just, you something in the media or just, you know, something somebody does in new know, something somebody does in new know, something somebody does in new media. media. media. Uh Uh Uh That that actually turns into real That that actually turns into real That that actually turns into real opportunity. So a lot of opportunity. So a lot of opportunity. So a lot of you know, I would say you know, I would say you know, I would say a reasonable portion of the brand that a reasonable portion of the brand that a reasonable portion of the brand that we built was just responding to people we built was just responding to people we built was just responding to people attacking us. Uh attacking us. Uh attacking us. Uh so that I I always saw that every time so that I I always saw that every time so that I I always saw that every time that happened as that happened as that happened as great Let's go. Like I one of my great Let's go. Like I one of my great Let's go. Like I one of my favorite things I ever wrote was uh favorite things I ever wrote was uh favorite things I ever wrote was uh Instagram. We we got into like this Instagram. We we got into like this Instagram. We we got into like this kerfuffle over Instagram with The New kerfuffle over Instagram with The New kerfuffle over Instagram with The New York Times. We had a conflict, whatever. York Times. We had a conflict, whatever. York Times. We had a conflict, whatever. It was a thing. But then I responded um It was a thing. But then I responded um It was a thing. But then I responded um and it was like the biggest at that time and it was like the biggest at that time and it was like the biggest at that time the biggest post I ever wrote and the biggest post I ever wrote and the biggest post I ever wrote and everybody was like, "Yeah, [ __ ] The New everybody was like, "Yeah, [ __ ] The New everybody was like, "Yeah, [ __ ] The New York Times." And so it was it it kind of York Times." And so it was it it kind of York Times." And so it was it it kind of took us from here to here in one shot took us from here to here in one shot took us from here to here in one shot just cuz everybody loves a fight. So just cuz everybody loves a fight. So just cuz everybody loves a fight. So fights are good for brand building. Um fights are good for brand building. Um fights are good for brand building. Um but you just got to pick the right fight but you just got to pick the right fight but you just got to pick the right fight to not just build somebody else's brand. to not just build somebody else's brand. to not just build somebody else's brand. >> Well, to that end when I you know, >> Well, to that end when I you know, >> Well, to that end when I you know, picking the battles when I first joined, picking the battles when I first joined, picking the battles when I first joined, I would bring up these uh negative I would bring up these uh negative I would bring up these uh negative tweets we were getting and say, "Hey, tweets we were getting and say, "Hey, tweets we were getting and say, "Hey, you know, these Anons are saying bad you know, these Anons are saying bad you know, these Anons are saying bad things about us." And you guys would be things about us." And you guys would be things about us." And you guys would be like, "Who cares?" Uh like this is in like, "Who cares?" Uh like this is in like, "Who cares?" Uh like this is in fact part of our success means we're fact part of our success means we're fact part of our success means we're going to have more and more people who going to have more and more people who going to have more and more people who are saying negative things. So are saying negative things. So are saying negative things. So >> Well, specifically they were they were >> Well, specifically they were they were >> Well, specifically they were they were they were they were saying mean things they were they were saying mean things they were they were saying mean things based on the things that we were based on the things that we were based on the things that we were funding. And then they were like, you funding. And then they were like, you funding. And then they were like, you know, it's a it's whole, the whole model know, it's a it's whole, the whole model know, it's a it's whole, the whole model is flawed. is flawed. is flawed. >> So, you're putting slop. >> So, you're putting slop. >> So, you're putting slop. >> You're putting slop. >> You're putting slop. >> You're putting slop. >> And it's like, bro, like it's great that >> And it's like, bro, like it's great that >> And it's like, bro, like it's great that we're funding things. we're funding things. we're funding things. Like what even if you think that, what Like what even if you think that, what Like what even if you think that, what is better in this world than the is better in this world than the is better in this world than the transfer of wealth from people who have transfer of wealth from people who have transfer of wealth from people who have a lot of money to people who have ideas a lot of money to people who have ideas a lot of money to people who have ideas and want to build something. Like even and want to build something. Like even and want to build something. Like even if we're wrong about everything, like if we're wrong about everything, like if we're wrong about everything, like that's still a good for humanity. So, that's still a good for humanity. So, that's still a good for humanity. So, like shut up to you, hater. like shut up to you, hater. like shut up to you, hater. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Idiots. >> Idiots. >> Idiots. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Hater hater. >> Hater hater. >> Hater hater. So, yeah, and then So, yeah, and then So, yeah, and then and then you know, that and then you know, that and then you know, that that's a great thing to that's a great thing to that's a great thing to my response was no, like my response was no, like my response was no, like that's a great thing to that's a great thing to that's a great thing to great thing to get criticized for is great thing to get criticized for is great thing to get criticized for is we're funding startups and supporting we're funding startups and supporting we're funding startups and supporting those startups. Like that's fantastic. those startups. Like that's fantastic. those startups. Like that's fantastic. >> There's a kind of point within that that >> There's a kind of point within that that >> There's a kind of point within that that is also kind of a an important change in is also kind of a an important change in is also kind of a an important change in new media, which is you really want new media, which is you really want new media, which is you really want people to hate you and you want people people to hate you and you want people people to hate you and you want people to love you, but you don't want to be to love you, but you don't want to be to love you, but you don't want to be neutral. You don't want to be lukewarm. neutral. You don't want to be lukewarm. neutral. You don't want to be lukewarm. Um, because then you're uninteresting. Um, because then you're uninteresting. Um, because then you're uninteresting. So, you're only So, you're only So, you're only you can't be interesting and not have you can't be interesting and not have you can't be interesting and not have people both hate you and love you. Just people both hate you and love you. Just people both hate you and love you. Just cuz there's too much cuz there's too much cuz there's too much no matter what you do, there's too much no matter what you do, there's too much no matter what you do, there's too much jealousy and just hatred in the world to jealousy and just hatred in the world to jealousy and just hatred in the world to not have it be that, cuz as soon as you not have it be that, cuz as soon as you not have it be that, cuz as soon as you get big get big get big that's what happens. There there's that's what happens. There there's that's what happens. There there's nobody I used to when people used to get nobody I used to when people used to get nobody I used to when people used to get upset about like things that were upset about like things that were upset about like things that were written about us, I said like nobody's written about us, I said like nobody's written about us, I said like nobody's nobody writes a puff piece on like nobody writes a puff piece on like nobody writes a puff piece on like Rupert Murdoch or Elon Musk or like it's Rupert Murdoch or Elon Musk or like it's Rupert Murdoch or Elon Musk or like it's never going to happen again. Like it's never going to happen again. Like it's never going to happen again. Like it's over. When you get to a certain size, over. When you get to a certain size, over. When you get to a certain size, people hate you. Um, and that's good, people hate you. Um, and that's good, people hate you. Um, and that's good, cuz that means you did it. You did cuz that means you did it. You did cuz that means you did it. You did something important. You made a mark on something important. You made a mark on something important. You made a mark on the world. People care about what you're the world. People care about what you're the world. People care about what you're doing. And you have to take it that way. doing. And you have to take it that way. doing. And you have to take it that way. If you take it like If you take it like If you take it like oh, I got to stop doing that so people oh, I got to stop doing that so people oh, I got to stop doing that so people like me, you'll you'll ruin your like me, you'll you'll ruin your like me, you'll you'll ruin your marketing. marketing. marketing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> The Mark Mark you since I've said the >> The Mark Mark you since I've said the >> The Mark Mark you since I've said the term you know, they have all the right term you know, they have all the right term you know, they have all the right enemies. So, it's picking, you know, the enemies. So, it's picking, you know, the enemies. So, it's picking, you know, the right people to hate you that galvanizes right people to hate you that galvanizes right people to hate you that galvanizes the people who love you. the people who love you. the people who love you. The The The what about building what about building what about building the right marketing and media team in the right marketing and media team in the right marketing and media team in the age of new media? What what have you the age of new media? What what have you the age of new media? What what have you guys learned or what advice do you have guys learned or what advice do you have guys learned or what advice do you have for for CEOs in terms of making sure you for for CEOs in terms of making sure you for for CEOs in terms of making sure you get the right get the right get the right the right personality. What what's the the right personality. What what's the the right personality. What what's the principle you think about the building principle you think about the building principle you think about the building that team? that team? that team? >> Well, the first principle >> Well, the first principle >> Well, the first principle is if you're trained in old media, it's is if you're trained in old media, it's is if you're trained in old media, it's very very very hard to very very very hard to very very very hard to do new media. Um so, you have to be a do new media. Um so, you have to be a do new media. Um so, you have to be a very exceptional person to make that very exceptional person to make that very exceptional person to make that transition because transition because transition because it's like it's like it's like if you spent 10 years doing old media, if you spent 10 years doing old media, if you spent 10 years doing old media, there are laws of physics, there are there are laws of physics, there are there are laws of physics, there are rules of the game, there's things that rules of the game, there's things that rules of the game, there's things that you do every single time in terms of, you do every single time in terms of, you do every single time in terms of, you know, like you know, like you know, like you know, from vetting reporters to uh you know, from vetting reporters to uh you know, from vetting reporters to uh rude Q&As to this and that like rude Q&As to this and that like rude Q&As to this and that like everything about it is opposite world. everything about it is opposite world. everything about it is opposite world. And so, there are very few people who And so, there are very few people who And so, there are very few people who can go, "Okay, I'm getting out of can go, "Okay, I'm getting out of can go, "Okay, I'm getting out of opposite world and I'm going into a new opposite world and I'm going into a new opposite world and I'm going into a new media world." media world." media world." So, you just have to be careful about So, you just have to be careful about So, you just have to be careful about for the new media side of what you're for the new media side of what you're for the new media side of what you're doing to hire too much experience in not doing to hire too much experience in not doing to hire too much experience in not new media. Uh it looks like marketing, new media. Uh it looks like marketing, new media. Uh it looks like marketing, but it's not the same. Uh it's a but it's not the same. Uh it's a but it's not the same. Uh it's a completely new skill set, so completely new skill set, so completely new skill set, so I I I would say like that's that's I I I would say like that's that's I I I would say like that's that's probably the thing that I'd worry about probably the thing that I'd worry about probably the thing that I'd worry about the most. Um the most. Um the most. Um and then, you know, like with Eric, what and then, you know, like with Eric, what and then, you know, like with Eric, what we looked for when we brought you on, we looked for when we brought you on, we looked for when we brought you on, for example, is for example, is for example, is the best thing on new media is have you the best thing on new media is have you the best thing on new media is have you done it? Have you kind of built some done it? Have you kind of built some done it? Have you kind of built some brand on something and some audience. Do brand on something and some audience. Do brand on something and some audience. Do you know how to build an audience? you know how to build an audience? you know how to build an audience? Um because that's the core core thing. Um because that's the core core thing. Um because that's the core core thing. Uh and if you can't do that, then Uh and if you can't do that, then Uh and if you can't do that, then you know, it doesn't matter if you've you know, it doesn't matter if you've you know, it doesn't matter if you've got this skill and that skill and the got this skill and that skill and the got this skill and that skill and the other skill, you've got you you have to other skill, you've got you you have to other skill, you've got you you have to be able to deliver it end-to-end. be able to deliver it end-to-end. be able to deliver it end-to-end. >> Yep. And in terms of people we've >> Yep. And in terms of people we've >> Yep. And in terms of people we've brought on, you know, like uh Alex Danco brought on, you know, like uh Alex Danco brought on, you know, like uh Alex Danco or uh Henry or or Brent, you know, they or uh Henry or or Brent, you know, they or uh Henry or or Brent, you know, they um they're product managers or founders um they're product managers or founders um they're product managers or founders or investors, but they were obsessed or investors, but they were obsessed or investors, but they were obsessed with the discourse, the you know, they with the discourse, the you know, they with the discourse, the you know, they were listening to the podcast, they were were listening to the podcast, they were were listening to the podcast, they were writing themselves. You could tell in writing themselves. You could tell in writing themselves. You could tell in the proof of work even though they the proof of work even though they the proof of work even though they weren't doing the thing. weren't doing the thing. weren't doing the thing. >> Yeah, so story like storytelling >> Yeah, so story like storytelling >> Yeah, so story like storytelling >> on your new media team, that that's such >> on your new media team, that that's such >> on your new media team, that that's such a good point. So, the reason why Alex is a good point. So, the reason why Alex is a good point. So, the reason why Alex is so good is like he's a world-class so good is like he's a world-class so good is like he's a world-class storyteller. Like so, forget like just storyteller. Like so, forget like just storyteller. Like so, forget like just take marketing out of it for a second. take marketing out of it for a second. take marketing out of it for a second. Like can you put together a story that Like can you put together a story that Like can you put together a story that somebody wants to read or listen to or somebody wants to read or listen to or somebody wants to read or listen to or whatever? whatever? whatever? And that's that's a real skill. And like And that's that's a real skill. And like And that's that's a real skill. And like the elite level of that is the elite level of that is the elite level of that is way higher than the average level of way higher than the average level of way higher than the average level of that. And the people who can't do it, by that. And the people who can't do it, by that. And the people who can't do it, by the way, can never do it like that. And the way, can never do it like that. And the way, can never do it like that. And many people from kind of old marketing many people from kind of old marketing many people from kind of old marketing world don't have that skill because world don't have that skill because world don't have that skill because you know, you always would rely on uh you know, you always would rely on uh you know, you always would rely on uh whatever the principal, the CEO, the whatever the principal, the CEO, the whatever the principal, the CEO, the somebody for that story. somebody for that story. somebody for that story. Um but if you can build a team that's Um but if you can build a team that's Um but if you can build a team that's got got got multiple storytellers that are good, multiple storytellers that are good, multiple storytellers that are good, that's a huge power boost. that's a huge power boost. that's a huge power boost. >> By the way, there's a really big >> By the way, there's a really big >> By the way, there's a really big disconnect that goes back to the disconnect that goes back to the disconnect that goes back to the authenticity point. There's a really big authenticity point. There's a really big authenticity point. There's a really big disconnect in how people in the kind of disconnect in how people in the kind of disconnect in how people in the kind of media sphere think about this cuz every media sphere think about this cuz every media sphere think about this cuz every reporter listening to what we're saying reporter listening to what we're saying reporter listening to what we're saying would be like, "Oh, there's only two would be like, "Oh, there's only two would be like, "Oh, there's only two things. There's journalism and there's things. There's journalism and there's things. There's journalism and there's propaganda." Um and and the and the propaganda." Um and and the and the propaganda." Um and and the and the mainstream press, traditional press does mainstream press, traditional press does mainstream press, traditional press does journalism. Um and the and if you're journalism. Um and the and if you're journalism. Um and the and if you're doing any kind of like direct anything, doing any kind of like direct anything, doing any kind of like direct anything, it's it's propaganda. And you you know, it's it's propaganda. And you you know, it's it's propaganda. And you you know, it's it's go to go it's just marketing. it's it's go to go it's just marketing. it's it's go to go it's just marketing. It's just trying to, you know, kind of It's just trying to, you know, kind of It's just trying to, you know, kind of sell something. sell something. sell something. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Um and like I would say that's a >> Um and like I would say that's a >> Um and like I would say that's a division distinction that we 100% don't division distinction that we 100% don't division distinction that we 100% don't agree with. Um and you know, there's agree with. Um and you know, there's agree with. Um and you know, there's there's critique aspect of it, which is there's critique aspect of it, which is there's critique aspect of it, which is I don't think the press does much I don't think the press does much >> [snorts] >> um you know, what what even they would >> um you know, what what even they would >> um you know, what what even they would describe as objective journalism describe as objective journalism describe as objective journalism anymore. But the the but the positive anymore. But the the but the positive anymore. But the the but the positive side of it is I think it goes right back side of it is I think it goes right back side of it is I think it goes right back to one of the reasons you want to be to one of the reasons you want to be to one of the reasons you want to be authentic is because you want to authentic is because you want to authentic is because you want to actually have people understand who you actually have people understand who you actually have people understand who you are. Um you want to have people actually are. Um you want to have people actually are. Um you want to have people actually understand what you do. And you want understand what you do. And you want understand what you do. And you want people to actually understand the the people to actually understand the the people to actually understand the the the context within which you're you're the context within which you're you're the context within which you're you're doing what you're doing. So, you you you doing what you're doing. So, you you you doing what you're doing. So, you you you want to actually explain yourself and want to actually explain yourself and want to actually explain yourself and you want to explain the world. Um and you want to explain the world. Um and you want to explain the world. Um and like when you talk about storytelling, like when you talk about storytelling, like when you talk about storytelling, like it's it's it's very much not like like it's it's it's very much not like like it's it's it's very much not like storytelling like a made-up story. It's storytelling like a made-up story. It's storytelling like a made-up story. It's storytelling of like here's what's storytelling of like here's what's storytelling of like here's what's actually happening. Um in an interesting actually happening. Um in an interesting actually happening. Um in an interesting way way way >> with tension, with a beginning and an >> with tension, with a beginning and an >> with tension, with a beginning and an end, you know, that somebody is end, you know, that somebody is end, you know, that somebody is interested in following the whole way. interested in following the whole way. interested in following the whole way. >> Yeah, that's right. And so, as a >> Yeah, that's right. And so, as a >> Yeah, that's right. And so, as a consequence, and we we really look for consequence, and we we really look for consequence, and we we really look for this is like when you know, look when this is like when you know, look when this is like when you know, look when Ben when Ben and I get like stuff from Ben when Ben and I get like stuff from Ben when Ben and I get like stuff from the street like when we're just like we the street like when we're just like we the street like when we're just like we routinely get told like a wow, I you routinely get told like a wow, I you routinely get told like a wow, I you know, I I I I watched the podcast. I saw know, I I I I watched the podcast. I saw know, I I I I watched the podcast. I saw this interview. I read that post this or this interview. I read that post this or this interview. I read that post this or that from the firm. And 100% time that from the firm. And 100% time that from the firm. And 100% time they're like, "Wow, like that was great. they're like, "Wow, like that was great. they're like, "Wow, like that was great. I really understand what that topic is I really understand what that topic is I really understand what that topic is about." Right? And and that that and about." Right? And and that that and about." Right? And and that that and that and and that's that's a very that and and that's that's a very that and and that's that's a very honest and legitimate and you know, honest and legitimate and you know, honest and legitimate and you know, positive and worthwhile reaction to very positive and worthwhile reaction to very positive and worthwhile reaction to very honest positive legitimate you know, honest positive legitimate you know, honest positive legitimate you know, action action on our part. And I just action action on our part. And I just action action on our part. And I just think again I I maybe put the other the think again I I maybe put the other the think again I I maybe put the other the other way to put this is that this isn't other way to put this is that this isn't other way to put this is that this isn't just something people should do. This is just something people should do. This is just something people should do. This is like I think a responsibility that for like I think a responsibility that for like I think a responsibility that for people in our world and the people in people in our world and the people in people in our world and the people in tech now to do which is like the changes tech now to do which is like the changes tech now to do which is like the changes that are happening. I mean of all times that are happening. I mean of all times that are happening. I mean of all times the changes that are happening in tech the changes that are happening in tech the changes that are happening in tech right now are are profound. right now are are profound. right now are are profound. And they're really hard to understand And they're really hard to understand And they're really hard to understand from the outside and they're really from the outside and they're really from the outside and they're really complicated. And there's huge amounts of complicated. And there's huge amounts of complicated. And there's huge amounts of noise in the environment. And so noise in the environment. And so noise in the environment. And so actually explaining actually explaining actually explaining honestly, right? What what's actually honestly, right? What what's actually honestly, right? What what's actually going on. And I'll I'll just break break going on. And I'll I'll just break break going on. And I'll I'll just break break on our team. We we put a space SpaceX on our team. We we put a space SpaceX on our team. We we put a space SpaceX post up today. Which although it has my post up today. Which although it has my post up today. Which although it has my name on it, I had nothing to do with name on it, I had nothing to do with name on it, I had nothing to do with writing it. writing it. writing it. I I cannot take any credit for it. I I cannot take any credit for it. I I cannot take any credit for it. And it it I I I mean the feedback I'm And it it I I I mean the feedback I'm And it it I I I mean the feedback I'm already getting is it's the best thing already getting is it's the best thing already getting is it's the best thing anybody's ever written on SpaceX. And I anybody's ever written on SpaceX. And I anybody's ever written on SpaceX. And I and I think that's true. And it and it and I think that's true. And it and it and I think that's true. And it and it and it literally is it lays out like the and it literally is it lays out like the and it literally is it lays out like the actual truth. And I'm really proud of actual truth. And I'm really proud of actual truth. And I'm really proud of that. that. that. >> It's awesome. I want to close with some >> It's awesome. I want to close with some >> It's awesome. I want to close with some uh going deeper on some advice for for uh going deeper on some advice for for uh going deeper on some advice for for founders on the on on going direct. Uh founders on the on on going direct. Uh founders on the on on going direct. Uh Gabi, I'll start with you. What are some Gabi, I'll start with you. What are some Gabi, I'll start with you. What are some mistakes that you see CEOs making and mistakes that you see CEOs making and mistakes that you see CEOs making and things to avoid? things to avoid? things to avoid? >> I I would say there's there's two >> I I would say there's there's two >> I I would say there's there's two mistakes that I commonly saw working mistakes that I commonly saw working mistakes that I commonly saw working with and they're sort of related. The with and they're sort of related. The with and they're sort of related. The first one is it can be very easy to do this too. It's it can be very easy to do this too. It's a trap to fall into because the timeline a trap to fall into because the timeline a trap to fall into because the timeline feels so addicting, but a lot of feels so addicting, but a lot of feels so addicting, but a lot of founders founders founders really over index on distribution and really over index on distribution and really over index on distribution and tactics before actually getting the tactics before actually getting the tactics before actually getting the message right. message right. message right. Distribution is really just a multiplier Distribution is really just a multiplier Distribution is really just a multiplier on the message. And so if the message is on the message. And so if the message is on the message. And so if the message is wrong, now you've amplified something wrong, now you've amplified something wrong, now you've amplified something that is either irrelevant for your that is either irrelevant for your that is either irrelevant for your business or not the thing that your business or not the thing that your business or not the thing that your audience needs to hear or like as we've audience needs to hear or like as we've audience needs to hear or like as we've talked about, maybe worst of all, it's talked about, maybe worst of all, it's talked about, maybe worst of all, it's uninteresting. And now you've told uninteresting. And now you've told uninteresting. And now you've told everybody that you care about that everybody that you care about that everybody that you care about that you're not very interesting. you're not very interesting. you're not very interesting. So in practice, a lot of founders would So in practice, a lot of founders would So in practice, a lot of founders would come to us and say, come to us and say, come to us and say, you know, how do we go viral or how do you know, how do we go viral or how do you know, how do we go viral or how do we get on Joe Rogan? And if you actually we get on Joe Rogan? And if you actually we get on Joe Rogan? And if you actually think about it, you could get on Joe think about it, you could get on Joe think about it, you could get on Joe Rogan and then not say the right thing. Rogan and then not say the right thing. Rogan and then not say the right thing. And this is maybe the worst thing ever. And this is maybe the worst thing ever. And this is maybe the worst thing ever. And this is important because it applies And this is important because it applies And this is important because it applies not just to old media, but to new media, not just to old media, but to new media, not just to old media, but to new media, right? Like you could go on Bloomberg or right? Like you could go on Bloomberg or right? Like you could go on Bloomberg or Fox and get the message wrong and you Fox and get the message wrong and you Fox and get the message wrong and you could also do the same thing with new could also do the same thing with new could also do the same thing with new media or going direct. And so uh that media or going direct. And so uh that media or going direct. And so uh that the first mistake is not actually the first mistake is not actually the first mistake is not actually spending the time to get the message spending the time to get the message spending the time to get the message right. And that's the highest leverage, right. And that's the highest leverage, right. And that's the highest leverage, most important thing to get right. most important thing to get right. most important thing to get right. And then from there, And then from there, And then from there, I guess the next mistake is actually I guess the next mistake is actually I guess the next mistake is actually just figuring out how to do that. just figuring out how to do that. just figuring out how to do that. Um Um Um and the way that I saw that is you can and the way that I saw that is you can and the way that I saw that is you can get the message wrong if you focus too get the message wrong if you focus too get the message wrong if you focus too much on the inputs as opposed to the much on the inputs as opposed to the much on the inputs as opposed to the outputs or the outcomes that you want to outputs or the outcomes that you want to outputs or the outcomes that you want to drive towards. And this is sort of drive towards. And this is sort of drive towards. And this is sort of paradoxical because paradoxical because paradoxical because the companies that are very successful the companies that are very successful the companies that are very successful struggle with this the most because struggle with this the most because struggle with this the most because there are a lot of interesting things there are a lot of interesting things there are a lot of interesting things that you could say about your company, that you could say about your company, that you could say about your company, right? There's like so many milestones, right? There's like so many milestones, right? There's like so many milestones, the mission is really compelling, the mission is really compelling, the mission is really compelling, there's like a lot of different things there's like a lot of different things there's like a lot of different things that you would want to say, but that you would want to say, but that you would want to say, but depending on what you're trying to depending on what you're trying to depending on what you're trying to achieve, the thing that you want to say achieve, the thing that you want to say achieve, the thing that you want to say should probably be different, right? should probably be different, right? should probably be different, right? Just because everything is true doesn't Just because everything is true doesn't Just because everything is true doesn't mean it's all relevant or strategic for mean it's all relevant or strategic for mean it's all relevant or strategic for your business. And so your business. And so your business. And so instead of starting with the inputs of instead of starting with the inputs of instead of starting with the inputs of here's this huge here's this huge here's this huge massive everything that we could say. massive everything that we could say. massive everything that we could say. Let's just say it all right now and hope Let's just say it all right now and hope Let's just say it all right now and hope people remember people remember people remember potentially the thing that we think is potentially the thing that we think is potentially the thing that we think is most interesting, but we haven't most interesting, but we haven't most interesting, but we haven't identified that thing. Start with the identified that thing. Start with the identified that thing. Start with the outcome, right? Do we want to sell to a outcome, right? Do we want to sell to a outcome, right? Do we want to sell to a certain type of enterprise customer? Do certain type of enterprise customer? Do certain type of enterprise customer? Do we want to hire a certain type of we want to hire a certain type of we want to hire a certain type of engineer who believes a certain thing engineer who believes a certain thing engineer who believes a certain thing about us and our role in the market? So about us and our role in the market? So about us and our role in the market? So now you can kind of work backwards from now you can kind of work backwards from now you can kind of work backwards from there. Like we know who these people there. Like we know who these people there. Like we know who these people are, we know what they believe, we know are, we know what they believe, we know are, we know what they believe, we know what what they probably believe or need what what they probably believe or need what what they probably believe or need to believe about us, and we know what to believe about us, and we know what to believe about us, and we know what feels in the discourse urgent and timely feels in the discourse urgent and timely feels in the discourse urgent and timely and personal to them. And then we can and personal to them. And then we can and personal to them. And then we can work backwards and get the message work backwards and get the message work backwards and get the message right. And so then going back to point right. And so then going back to point right. And so then going back to point one, you pair that with really powerful one, you pair that with really powerful one, you pair that with really powerful distribution, and then you have a really distribution, and then you have a really distribution, and then you have a really winning strategy. winning strategy. winning strategy. >> And by the way, so a really important >> And by the way, so a really important >> And by the way, so a really important point in what Gabby said is point in what Gabby said is point in what Gabby said is that really determines how you have to that really determines how you have to that really determines how you have to put the team together because if you put put the team together because if you put put the team together because if you put together a team together a team together a team that that that you can't have a conversation with where you can't have a conversation with where you can't have a conversation with where you're listening on your message and you're listening on your message and you're listening on your message and what you're saying, what you're saying, what you're saying, then then then that that that you've kind of done yourself a you've kind of done yourself a you've kind of done yourself a disservice. You need the team to help disservice. You need the team to help disservice. You need the team to help make the story great before they go cuz make the story great before they go cuz make the story great before they go cuz it's really easy to go, "Okay, market it's really easy to go, "Okay, market it's really easy to go, "Okay, market this, you know, empty box." Um this, you know, empty box." Um this, you know, empty box." Um there are a few marketers who could there are a few marketers who could there are a few marketers who could probably do that, but like it's it's probably do that, but like it's it's probably do that, but like it's it's hard. Uh so hard. Uh so hard. Uh so you you really want you you really want you you really want the team to be invested in the message, the team to be invested in the message, the team to be invested in the message, and then all the variations you need to and then all the variations you need to and then all the variations you need to distribute that message are going to be distribute that message are going to be distribute that message are going to be really good and on point. Um but if the really good and on point. Um but if the really good and on point. Um but if the team team team is kind of doesn't have an opinion on is kind of doesn't have an opinion on is kind of doesn't have an opinion on message, that's very difficult. message, that's very difficult. message, that's very difficult. >> Mark, one of the things we we said in >> Mark, one of the things we we said in >> Mark, one of the things we we said in that meeting with the growth portfolio that meeting with the growth portfolio that meeting with the growth portfolio company the other week was company the other week was company the other week was we you admire about people like, you we you admire about people like, you we you admire about people like, you know, Alex Karp or Palmer or Elon or know, Alex Karp or Palmer or Elon or know, Alex Karp or Palmer or Elon or others is the ability to also not just others is the ability to also not just others is the ability to also not just focus on what they're doing, but also go focus on what they're doing, but also go focus on what they're doing, but also go outside in and talk about what's outside in and talk about what's outside in and talk about what's happening in the world and how do they happening in the world and how do they happening in the world and how do they situate their worldview, their their situate their worldview, their their situate their worldview, their their company, their product, etc. Within company, their product, etc. Within company, their product, etc. Within that, would you talk a little bit about that, would you talk a little bit about that, would you talk a little bit about that principle and how do people get that principle and how do people get that principle and how do people get good at it? good at it? good at it? >> Yeah, so the most uh kind of uh common >> Yeah, so the most uh kind of uh common >> Yeah, so the most uh kind of uh common VC story, so marketing story is, "Oh, I VC story, so marketing story is, "Oh, I VC story, so marketing story is, "Oh, I met this great founder, and we went on a met this great founder, and we went on a met this great founder, and we went on a walk, and then I called him eight times, walk, and then I called him eight times, walk, and then I called him eight times, and like I thought he was great, and I and like I thought he was great, and I and like I thought he was great, and I eventually convinced him to take money." eventually convinced him to take money." eventually convinced him to take money." The most common, you know, startup story The most common, you know, startup story The most common, you know, startup story is, "Oh, we're brand new company. We're is, "Oh, we're brand new company. We're is, "Oh, we're brand new company. We're all fired up. We're ready to go. It's all fired up. We're ready to go. It's all fired up. We're ready to go. It's going to be great. We have a new going to be great. We have a new going to be great. We have a new product, you know, we hope you try it." product, you know, we hope you try it." product, you know, we hope you try it." And I mean, those stories just make you And I mean, those stories just make you And I mean, those stories just make you want to stab yourself in the neck, want to stab yourself in the neck, want to stab yourself in the neck, right? I mean, like as in the like it's right? I mean, like as in the like it's right? I mean, like as in the like it's just like, "Oh my god." Like that is just like, "Oh my god." Like that is just like, "Oh my god." Like that is just the lamest story in the world. Um just the lamest story in the world. Um just the lamest story in the world. Um and and I and and I and and I >> By the way, details, well, one of the >> By the way, details, well, one of the >> By the way, details, well, one of the keys on this is like good storytellers keys on this is like good storytellers keys on this is like good storytellers have great details. Details matter a have great details. Details matter a have great details. Details matter a lot. And so, the one thing about Mark's lot. And so, the one thing about Mark's lot. And so, the one thing about Mark's thing that makes it like so horrible is thing that makes it like so horrible is thing that makes it like so horrible is like no details, just like blah, blah, like no details, just like blah, blah, like no details, just like blah, blah, blah, I'm so great. Uh, you know, I blah, I'm so great. Uh, you know, I blah, I'm so great. Uh, you know, I talked to the founder, he really liked talked to the founder, he really liked talked to the founder, he really liked me. You'll probably really like me, too. me. You'll probably really like me, too. me. You'll probably really like me, too. Like, what who who cares? Like, what who who cares? Like, what who who cares? >> And and it's it's almost right, it's >> And and it's it's almost right, it's >> And and it's it's almost right, it's almost the thing where they they they almost the thing where they they they almost the thing where they they they come across as like it's like fake come across as like it's like fake come across as like it's like fake humble, right? Cuz it's just like, oh, humble, right? Cuz it's just like, oh, humble, right? Cuz it's just like, oh, I'm I'm I'm >> Or you they they say >> Or you they they say >> Or you they they say >> I uh I'm humbly I'm humbled by >> I uh I'm humbly I'm humbled by >> I uh I'm humbly I'm humbled by >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> That's the most fake humble thing in the >> That's the most fake humble thing in the >> That's the most fake humble thing in the world. I'm humbled by world. I'm humbled by world. I'm humbled by >> You're not even remotely humble. >> You're not even remotely humble. >> You're not even remotely humble. >> Um, and so, um, yeah, and so, that it's >> Um, and so, um, yeah, and so, that it's >> Um, and so, um, yeah, and so, that it's just it's just it's just the worst. And just it's just it's just the worst. And just it's just it's just the worst. And you know, there's there's a whole bunch you know, there's there's a whole bunch you know, there's there's a whole bunch of critiques. It's it's sort of yeah, of critiques. It's it's sort of yeah, of critiques. It's it's sort of yeah, it's fake bragging. It's it's boring. it's fake bragging. It's it's boring. it's fake bragging. It's it's boring. Um, it's you know, it's egocentric. It Um, it's you know, it's egocentric. It Um, it's you know, it's egocentric. It to to no purpose. to to no purpose. to to no purpose. Um, and you know, it's a Um, and you know, it's a Um, and you know, it's a passive-aggressive. Um, and then it's passive-aggressive. Um, and then it's passive-aggressive. Um, and then it's just it's indistinguishable. Like, just it's indistinguishable. Like, just it's indistinguishable. Like, there's just a thousand I mean, it's there's just a thousand I mean, it's there's just a thousand I mean, it's just it's every it's every single just it's every it's every single just it's every it's every single startup. It's every single startup. It's every single startup. It's every single >> Everybody can gaze at their navel, >> Everybody can gaze at their navel, >> Everybody can gaze at their navel, right? right? right? >> Everybody can do that. Like, there's >> Everybody can do that. Like, there's >> Everybody can do that. Like, there's nobody who can't do that. So, that's nobody who can't do that. So, that's nobody who can't do that. So, that's that's not a differentiated story. that's not a differentiated story. that's not a differentiated story. >> Yeah, and so, and and so, that's like >> Yeah, and so, and and so, that's like >> Yeah, and so, and and so, that's like the default kind of narrative that the default kind of narrative that the default kind of narrative that people fall into. And then and then it people fall into. And then and then it people fall into. And then and then it also like it feels I think it actually also like it feels I think it actually also like it feels I think it actually feels like doing anything bigger than feels like doing anything bigger than feels like doing anything bigger than that is like arrogant cuz it's just that is like arrogant cuz it's just that is like arrogant cuz it's just like, who are we to like go tell some like, who are we to like go tell some like, who are we to like go tell some bigger thing? And I don't even know what bigger thing? And I don't even know what bigger thing? And I don't even know what the bigger thing would be. And like, the bigger thing would be. And like, the bigger thing would be. And like, aren't the people who tell the bigger aren't the people who tell the bigger aren't the people who tell the bigger thing full of themselves and trying to thing full of themselves and trying to thing full of themselves and trying to make themselves look even bigger? And make themselves look even bigger? And make themselves look even bigger? And so, there's just this like really so, there's just this like really so, there's just this like really reluctance to kind of expand the you reluctance to kind of expand the you reluctance to kind of expand the you know, kind of expand the expand the know, kind of expand the expand the know, kind of expand the expand the expand the telescope out. Um expand the telescope out. Um expand the telescope out. Um And so, but what I would tell people is And so, but what I would tell people is And so, but what I would tell people is um um um like the exact opposite of the of of all like the exact opposite of the of of all like the exact opposite of the of of all of that is true, which is like the story of that is true, which is like the story of that is true, which is like the story of you and your startup is not of you and your startup is not of you and your startup is not inherently a an interesting story, but inherently a an interesting story, but inherently a an interesting story, but there is almost certainly an interesting there is almost certainly an interesting there is almost certainly an interesting story that involves your startup. And story that involves your startup. And story that involves your startup. And that story is and it's sort of the cheat that story is and it's sort of the cheat that story is and it's sort of the cheat code of it. The story is something else code of it. The story is something else code of it. The story is something else in the world that's happening that is in the world that's happening that is in the world that's happening that is incredibly interesting. Um, that your incredibly interesting. Um, that your incredibly interesting. Um, that your company relates to. company relates to. company relates to. >> And then yeah, by the way, the grand >> And then yeah, by the way, the grand >> And then yeah, by the way, the grand wizard of this is Alex Karp. If you wizard of this is Alex Karp. If you wizard of this is Alex Karp. If you watch his interviews, he never talks watch his interviews, he never talks watch his interviews, he never talks about Palantir. The only thing he ever about Palantir. The only thing he ever about Palantir. The only thing he ever says about Palantir, Mark pointed this says about Palantir, Mark pointed this says about Palantir, Mark pointed this out to me is ontology and orchestration, out to me is ontology and orchestration, out to me is ontology and orchestration, two words that nobody knows what they two words that nobody knows what they two words that nobody knows what they mean. mean. mean. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And and like nobody knows what Palantir >> And and like nobody knows what Palantir >> And and like nobody knows what Palantir does as a result, but it doesn't matter does as a result, but it doesn't matter does as a result, but it doesn't matter because it's like because it's like because it's like you know, like you know, like you know, like the future of the US military, Palantir. the future of the US military, Palantir. the future of the US military, Palantir. Like super intelligence, Palantir. Like Like super intelligence, Palantir. Like Like super intelligence, Palantir. Like whatever the story is that's like really whatever the story is that's like really whatever the story is that's like really good, like Alex will go tell that story. good, like Alex will go tell that story. good, like Alex will go tell that story. Neurodivergence. Neurodivergence. Neurodivergence. >> [laughter] >> He's he's just like >> He's he's just like whatever is interesting, he'll just whatever is interesting, he'll just whatever is interesting, he'll just start talking about and then because start talking about and then because start talking about and then because he's this founder of Palantir, the CEO he's this founder of Palantir, the CEO he's this founder of Palantir, the CEO of Palantir, like that just works and of Palantir, like that just works and of Palantir, like that just works and I I say it like I I say it like I I say it like kind of facetious, but like kind of facetious, but like kind of facetious, but like it's really a good strategy. Now, he it's really a good strategy. Now, he it's really a good strategy. Now, he takes it to the very extreme. Um but takes it to the very extreme. Um but takes it to the very extreme. Um but like that that's the right idea to find like that that's the right idea to find like that that's the right idea to find the most interesting story that you can the most interesting story that you can the most interesting story that you can that you can plug your company into and that you can plug your company into and that you can plug your company into and then tell that story. then tell that story. then tell that story. >> Yeah, because because what happens is >> Yeah, because because what happens is >> Yeah, because because what happens is then when something happens, right? When then when something happens, right? When then when something happens, right? When something happens in the world, something happens in the world, something happens in the world, something happens involving US military, something happens involving US military, something happens involving US military, AI in the military, this or that, AI in the military, this or that, AI in the military, this or that, geopolitics or China, like he's like the geopolitics or China, like he's like the geopolitics or China, like he's like the first phone call, right? Cuz he's like first phone call, right? Cuz he's like first phone call, right? Cuz he's like he's the guy who's like been out there he's the guy who's like been out there he's the guy who's like been out there talking about that. talking about that. talking about that. >> way, Ryan Peterson is in the audience >> way, Ryan Peterson is in the audience >> way, Ryan Peterson is in the audience who's done a phenomenal job of that. who's done a phenomenal job of that. who's done a phenomenal job of that. >> good at that. Exactly, yes. Yes. Yes. >> good at that. Exactly, yes. Yes. Yes. >> good at that. Exactly, yes. Yes. Yes. Right, the difference between talking Right, the difference between talking Right, the difference between talking about freight versus talking about the about freight versus talking about the about freight versus talking about the global supply chain is completely global supply chain is completely global supply chain is completely collapsing during COVID and we're all collapsing during COVID and we're all collapsing during COVID and we're all going to starve to death. Right? going to starve to death. Right? going to starve to death. Right? [laughter] And then and then and then therefore And then and then and then therefore he's the guy who literally goes on 60 he's the guy who literally goes on 60 he's the guy who literally goes on 60 minutes to explain to the world that in minutes to explain to the world that in minutes to explain to the world that in fact yes, we are we all are about to fact yes, we are we all are about to fact yes, we are we all are about to starve to death. starve to death. starve to death. Um from the helicopter, right? Is that Um from the helicopter, right? Is that Um from the helicopter, right? Is that Is that Yes, from the from the Is that Yes, from the from the Is that Yes, from the from the helicopter, yes. Look at all those ships helicopter, yes. Look at all those ships helicopter, yes. Look at all those ships that are never landing. Uh your your that are never landing. Uh your your that are never landing. Uh your your children are about to starve. children are about to starve. children are about to starve. Um Um Um by Flexport. Um by Flexport. Um by Flexport. Um >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> So it works incredibly well and then the >> So it works incredibly well and then the >> So it works incredibly well and then the other other other >> And you don't even have to say by >> And you don't even have to say by >> And you don't even have to say by Flexport. It just happens. Flexport. It just happens. Flexport. It just happens. >> It's implicit. It's implicit. And then >> It's implicit. It's implicit. And then >> It's implicit. It's implicit. And then um and then the the other thing um and then the the other thing um and then the the other thing especially especially for enterprise especially especially for enterprise especially especially for enterprise anything involving enterprise sales anything involving enterprise sales anything involving enterprise sales which is certainly Flexport but also which is certainly Flexport but also which is certainly Flexport but also Palantir is just like a big part of it Palantir is just like a big part of it Palantir is just like a big part of it is are you important enough to like meet is are you important enough to like meet is are you important enough to like meet with the CEO of your customer? Like are with the CEO of your customer? Like are with the CEO of your customer? Like are are you important enough to get in the are you important enough to get in the are you important enough to get in the room with the decision maker? Are you room with the decision maker? Are you room with the decision maker? Are you are you important enough to meet with are you important enough to meet with are you important enough to meet with the Secretary of War? Are you important the Secretary of War? Are you important the Secretary of War? Are you important enough to like be in the White House? enough to like be in the White House? enough to like be in the White House? Are you important enough to be with Are you important enough to be with Are you important enough to be with Fortune 500 CEOs? And you know, I just I Fortune 500 CEOs? And you know, I just I Fortune 500 CEOs? And you know, I just I have a you know, I have a little startup have a you know, I have a little startup have a you know, I have a little startup that's doing interesting things that's that's doing interesting things that's that's doing interesting things that's not do that but I am attached to and you not do that but I am attached to and you not do that but I am attached to and you have seen me talk about like the big have seen me talk about like the big have seen me talk about like the big important things that are happening in important things that are happening in important things that are happening in the world and how they relate and that the world and how they relate and that the world and how they relate and that you have you know, potentially an answer you have you know, potentially an answer you have you know, potentially an answer to it. Like that's absolute catnip. Like to it. Like that's absolute catnip. Like to it. Like that's absolute catnip. Like every every every everybody wants that. every every every everybody wants that. every every every everybody wants that. And so yeah, so the way I describe this And so yeah, so the way I describe this And so yeah, so the way I describe this is just you know, the the the the the is just you know, the the the the the is just you know, the the the the the trick kind of is don't don't everybody trick kind of is don't don't everybody trick kind of is don't don't everybody just naturally thinks inside out me and just naturally thinks inside out me and just naturally thinks inside out me and my company and my product out into the my company and my product out into the my company and my product out into the world. Don't think that way. Think in world. Don't think that way. Think in world. Don't think that way. Think in terms of like what are the most terms of like what are the most terms of like what are the most interesting things happening in the interesting things happening in the interesting things happening in the world and then what and then how and world and then what and then how and world and then what and then how and then and then how do those things relate then and then how do those things relate then and then how do those things relate to us? to us? to us? >> And and by the way, this is where >> And and by the way, this is where >> And and by the way, this is where um um um CEOs go off the rails cuz they're so CEOs go off the rails cuz they're so CEOs go off the rails cuz they're so focused on what they're doing. focused on what they're doing. focused on what they're doing. Um that all they want to do is tell Um that all they want to do is tell Um that all they want to do is tell their story and they're not even paying their story and they're not even paying their story and they're not even paying attention to what's going on in the attention to what's going on in the attention to what's going on in the world which is understandable cuz you're world which is understandable cuz you're world which is understandable cuz you're trying to build something but trying to build something but trying to build something but to do the marketing exercise investing to do the marketing exercise investing to do the marketing exercise investing in understanding in understanding in understanding what's happening out there is just what's happening out there is just what's happening out there is just critically important. You can't do it critically important. You can't do it critically important. You can't do it without that. without that. without that. >> This by the way happens also in investor >> This by the way happens also in investor >> This by the way happens also in investor relations. So every company you know, relations. So every company you know, relations. So every company you know, this every public company by law does this every public company by law does this every public company by law does these you know, S1 K1 [snorts] Q these you know, S1 K1 [snorts] Q these you know, S1 K1 [snorts] Q whatever Q they they do all these things whatever Q they they do all these things whatever Q they they do all these things and they like fully have you you know, and they like fully have you you know, and they like fully have you you know, spend all this time and all this effort spend all this time and all this effort spend all this time and all this effort and these these documents is filing and these these documents is filing and these these documents is filing fully explain everything the company fully explain everything the company fully explain everything the company does and they have every possible you does and they have every possible you does and they have every possible you know, hedge and me a culpa and I'll just know, hedge and me a culpa and I'll just know, hedge and me a culpa and I'll just like these incredible descriptions of like these incredible descriptions of like these incredible descriptions of people but and then and then there are people but and then and then there are people but and then and then there are the the annual letters and the the the annual letters and the the the annual letters and the >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> and all this stuff. What percentage of >> and all this stuff. What percentage of >> and all this stuff. What percentage of the investors in you know, Palantir have the investors in you know, Palantir have the investors in you know, Palantir have read the read the read the S1 K1, right? Like you know, 0.0001% S1 K1, right? Like you know, 0.0001% S1 K1, right? Like you know, 0.0001% What percentage have seen Alex you know, What percentage have seen Alex you know, What percentage have seen Alex you know, on YouTube doing his thing? on YouTube doing his thing? on YouTube doing his thing? >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> You know, 100%. >> You know, 100%. >> You know, 100%. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the amount of time >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the amount of time >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the amount of time that goes into that document. Right. that goes into that document. Right. that goes into that document. Right. And so you just take that time and just And so you just take that time and just And so you just take that time and just understand enough about the world to put understand enough about the world to put understand enough about the world to put together a good story. together a good story. together a good story. >> On on that note, we'll end with the this >> On on that note, we'll end with the this >> On on that note, we'll end with the this idea that um the skill set is is not idea that um the skill set is is not idea that um the skill set is is not only something you're you're born with only something you're you're born with only something you're you're born with you're not it can be developed and you're not it can be developed and you're not it can be developed and learned and cultivated. I mean Mark you learned and cultivated. I mean Mark you learned and cultivated. I mean Mark you were saying the other day that when you were saying the other day that when you were saying the other day that when you look back at Alex Karp's old interviews look back at Alex Karp's old interviews look back at Alex Karp's old interviews they're they're very different. And so they're they're very different. And so they're they're very different. And so when you look at you know Alex or Palmer when you look at you know Alex or Palmer when you look at you know Alex or Palmer or Elon or Ryan or Amjad who who came or Elon or Ryan or Amjad who who came or Elon or Ryan or Amjad who who came here earlier here earlier here earlier um you look back at their old tweets or um you look back at their old tweets or um you look back at their old tweets or their old interviews and they're they're their old interviews and they're they're their old interviews and they're they're nowhere close to you know where they nowhere close to you know where they nowhere close to you know where they were. were. were. >> Oh yeah, it's a skill set for sure. Um >> Oh yeah, it's a skill set for sure. Um >> Oh yeah, it's a skill set for sure. Um and look there there are people who are and look there there are people who are and look there there are people who are gifted and then people are less good. If gifted and then people are less good. If gifted and then people are less good. If you look at Donald Trump's interviews in you look at Donald Trump's interviews in you look at Donald Trump's interviews in the 80s they're very old media the 80s they're very old media the 80s they're very old media interviews. He's actually interviews. He's actually interviews. He's actually restrained. restrained. restrained. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And then you know like he did figure out >> And then you know like he did figure out >> And then you know like he did figure out new media and he's always like super new media and he's always like super new media and he's always like super entertaining and interesting which is entertaining and interesting which is entertaining and interesting which is kind of the the magic of his uh kind of the the magic of his uh kind of the the magic of his uh of his popularity. of his popularity. of his popularity. Um so even like at that level you can Um so even like at that level you can Um so even like at that level you can develop it. develop it. develop it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. On that note, it's a great place to On that note, it's a great place to On that note, it's a great place to wrap. Let's do a round of applause for wrap. Let's do a round of applause for wrap. Let's do a round of applause for Gabby, Ben, and Mark. Gabby, Ben, and Mark. Gabby, Ben, and Mark. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> [applause]