The Many Benefits of Coca — The “Divine Leaf” with 8,000+ Years of Use

The thing that was so disturbing about The thing that was so disturbing about the bust is that after 60 years of war the bust is that after 60 years of war the bust is that after 60 years of war on drugs, you had customs agents who on drugs, you had customs agents who on drugs, you had customs agents who still didn't know the difference between still didn't know the difference between still didn't know the difference between cocoa and cocaine after expending a cocoa and cocaine after expending a cocoa and cocaine after expending a trillion dollars on this failed trillion dollars on this failed trillion dollars on this failed campaign. And that was really the campaign. And that was really the campaign. And that was really the equivalent, if you think about it, of equivalent, if you think about it, of equivalent, if you think about it, of Elliot Nest busting a truckload of Elliot Nest busting a truckload of Elliot Nest busting a truckload of potatoes in violation of the Volstead potatoes in violation of the Volstead potatoes in violation of the Volstead Act. You know, cocoa is to cocaine what Act. You know, cocoa is to cocaine what Act. You know, cocoa is to cocaine what potatoes are to vodka. potatoes are to vodka. potatoes are to vodka. >> I thought Andy, we could start with the >> I thought Andy, we could start with the >> I thought Andy, we could start with the ethnobotanical ethnobotanical ethnobotanical medicinal side of things. medicinal side of things. medicinal side of things. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Because I'll share perhaps an anecdote >> Because I'll share perhaps an anecdote >> Because I'll share perhaps an anecdote to kick us off, which was I, as both of to kick us off, which was I, as both of to kick us off, which was I, as both of you have have spent a lot of time in you have have spent a lot of time in you have have spent a lot of time in South America, and it's not always to South America, and it's not always to South America, and it's not always to end up in the lower upper Amazon end up in the lower upper Amazon end up in the lower upper Amazon consuming questionable substances. It's consuming questionable substances. It's consuming questionable substances. It's sometimes to do other things like visit sometimes to do other things like visit sometimes to do other things like visit cities and spend time with friends and cities and spend time with friends and cities and spend time with friends and go skiing. go skiing. go skiing. >> And the skiing in this case was in Chile >> And the skiing in this case was in Chile >> And the skiing in this case was in Chile and it was the first instance where we and it was the first instance where we and it was the first instance where we landed in Santiago, drove to elevation landed in Santiago, drove to elevation landed in Santiago, drove to elevation very quickly and I had my first very quickly and I had my first very quickly and I had my first experience with terrible altitude experience with terrible altitude experience with terrible altitude sickness. And for those who have not sickness. And for those who have not sickness. And for those who have not experienced it, I do not wish it upon my experienced it, I do not wish it upon my experienced it, I do not wish it upon my worst enemy. It is an absolutely worst enemy. It is an absolutely worst enemy. It is an absolutely horrific horrific horrific experience. It's terrible. And experience. It's terrible. And experience. It's terrible. And even though the legal status I think is even though the legal status I think is even though the legal status I think is a question mark or maybe it's very a question mark or maybe it's very a question mark or maybe it's very directly directly directly verboten in Chile, the locals in the verboten in Chile, the locals in the verboten in Chile, the locals in the lodge gave me coca leaf tea and within lodge gave me coca leaf tea and within lodge gave me coca leaf tea and within several hours no symptoms and they did several hours no symptoms and they did several hours no symptoms and they did not recur past that point which blew my not recur past that point which blew my not recur past that point which blew my mind particularly since even with Diamox mind particularly since even with Diamox mind particularly since even with Diamox to help with altitude acclamation my to help with altitude acclamation my to help with altitude acclamation my experience has been that it takes a few experience has been that it takes a few experience has been that it takes a few days and I did not have any good way to days and I did not have any good way to days and I did not have any good way to explain this particularly given my explain this particularly given my explain this particularly given my levels of exertion levels of exertion levels of exertion >> and not surprisingly in other countries >> and not surprisingly in other countries >> and not surprisingly in other countries whether it's Peru, Colombia certainly if whether it's Peru, Colombia certainly if whether it's Peru, Colombia certainly if you look at the Kogis and so on this you look at the Kogis and so on this you look at the Kogis and so on this plant is not just incredibly important plant is not just incredibly important plant is not just incredibly important from a from a from a let's just call it for lack of a better let's just call it for lack of a better let's just call it for lack of a better term religious perspective, cultural term religious perspective, cultural term religious perspective, cultural perspective, but also medicinal perspective, but also medicinal perspective, but also medicinal perspective. So, I was hoping Andy you perspective. So, I was hoping Andy you perspective. So, I was hoping Andy you could give a primer on what makes Koka could give a primer on what makes Koka could give a primer on what makes Koka the plant interesting. the plant interesting. the plant interesting. >> Well, let me say I first met Koka in >> Well, let me say I first met Koka in >> Well, let me say I first met Koka in 1965. 1965. 1965. I just finished my first year of medical I just finished my first year of medical I just finished my first year of medical school and my mentor Dick Schulties who school and my mentor Dick Schulties who school and my mentor Dick Schulties who was director of the Harvard Botanical was director of the Harvard Botanical was director of the Harvard Botanical Museum sent me to South America to Museum sent me to South America to Museum sent me to South America to collect medicinal plants with one of his collect medicinal plants with one of his collect medicinal plants with one of his graduate students in the Amazon in the graduate students in the Amazon in the graduate students in the Amazon in the Andes. And I met with him right before I Andes. And I met with him right before I Andes. And I met with him right before I left and he said, "When you're in Peru, left and he said, "When you're in Peru, left and he said, "When you're in Peru, be sure to chew cocoa." [laughter] He be sure to chew cocoa." [laughter] He be sure to chew cocoa." [laughter] He said, "It's a very interesting plant and said, "It's a very interesting plant and said, "It's a very interesting plant and you want to learn about it." So I did you want to learn about it." So I did you want to learn about it." So I did and I have been using cocoa ever since. and I have been using cocoa ever since. and I have been using cocoa ever since. And my original interest was to find out And my original interest was to find out And my original interest was to find out how this was used by indigenous peoples how this was used by indigenous peoples how this was used by indigenous peoples medically. It's as important to that medically. It's as important to that medically. It's as important to that population as peppermint and chamomile population as peppermint and chamomile population as peppermint and chamomile are in European medicine. you know it's are in European medicine. you know it's are in European medicine. you know it's their major medicinal plant and the main their major medicinal plant and the main their major medicinal plant and the main indication is for treating GI disorders indication is for treating GI disorders indication is for treating GI disorders but it also it is obviously relied on to but it also it is obviously relied on to but it also it is obviously relied on to provide energy in doing physical work to provide energy in doing physical work to provide energy in doing physical work to help with altitude sickness as you help with altitude sickness as you help with altitude sickness as you mentioned to boost mood and to improve mentioned to boost mood and to improve mentioned to boost mood and to improve metabolism. metabolism. metabolism. The population the Andes especially is The population the Andes especially is The population the Andes especially is often not wellnourished often not wellnourished often not wellnourished and they eat a very high starch diet. and they eat a very high starch diet. and they eat a very high starch diet. They have um high incidence of genes They have um high incidence of genes They have um high incidence of genes predisposing them to type two diabetes. predisposing them to type two diabetes. predisposing them to type two diabetes. But they don't have diabetes if they are But they don't have diabetes if they are But they don't have diabetes if they are on their traditional diets and on their traditional diets and on their traditional diets and exercising and chewing cocoa. But if exercising and chewing cocoa. But if exercising and chewing cocoa. But if they move to lower altitude and stop they move to lower altitude and stop they move to lower altitude and stop chewing cocoa and eat more like the chewing cocoa and eat more like the chewing cocoa and eat more like the blanco population in Peru, they develop blanco population in Peru, they develop blanco population in Peru, they develop very high rates of type 2 diabetes. So very high rates of type 2 diabetes. So very high rates of type 2 diabetes. So that's quite interesting. you know that that's quite interesting. you know that that's quite interesting. you know that it has some normalizing effect on blood it has some normalizing effect on blood it has some normalizing effect on blood sugar and metabolism which is something sugar and metabolism which is something sugar and metabolism which is something that I'd really like to see good that I'd really like to see good that I'd really like to see good research on. So I think there are research on. So I think there are research on. So I think there are multiple uses and these are not multiple uses and these are not multiple uses and these are not attributable to effects of cocaine and I attributable to effects of cocaine and I attributable to effects of cocaine and I think this is most important that in think this is most important that in think this is most important that in cocoa there are 14 alkaloids. Cocaine is cocoa there are 14 alkaloids. Cocaine is cocoa there are 14 alkaloids. Cocaine is one of them and they all have similar one of them and they all have similar one of them and they all have similar chemical structures and none of them chemical structures and none of them chemical structures and none of them have ever been studied. You know once we have ever been studied. You know once we have ever been studied. You know once we isolated cocaine from the leaf everybody isolated cocaine from the leaf everybody isolated cocaine from the leaf everybody lost interest in everything else. So, we lost interest in everything else. So, we lost interest in everything else. So, we don't really know what those other don't really know what those other don't really know what those other things do and how they modify the things do and how they modify the things do and how they modify the activity of cocaine. The amount of activity of cocaine. The amount of activity of cocaine. The amount of cocaine in coke is relatively small. You cocaine in coke is relatively small. You cocaine in coke is relatively small. You know, it would not be worth anybody's know, it would not be worth anybody's know, it would not be worth anybody's time on a home scale to try to extract time on a home scale to try to extract time on a home scale to try to extract cocaine from cocoa. You need a tonnage cocaine from cocoa. You need a tonnage cocaine from cocoa. You need a tonnage of leaves to get a significant amount. of leaves to get a significant amount. of leaves to get a significant amount. But I [snorts] think the most important But I [snorts] think the most important But I [snorts] think the most important point is that this whole complex of point is that this whole complex of point is that this whole complex of compounds acting together is responsible compounds acting together is responsible compounds acting together is responsible for the effects that you know people for the effects that you know people for the effects that you know people report as being very beneficial both for report as being very beneficial both for report as being very beneficial both for mental health and physical health. mental health and physical health. mental health and physical health. >> Could you say more about the digestive >> Could you say more about the digestive >> Could you say more about the digestive or metabolic effects? Do we have an idea or metabolic effects? Do we have an idea or metabolic effects? Do we have an idea of the mechanism of action there? What of the mechanism of action there? What of the mechanism of action there? What it's actually doing? Coke has been it's actually doing? Coke has been it's actually doing? Coke has been remarkably little studied. For a plant remarkably little studied. For a plant remarkably little studied. For a plant of such enormous historical, cultural, of such enormous historical, cultural, of such enormous historical, cultural, economic, scientific, medical economic, scientific, medical economic, scientific, medical importance, there is an almost complete importance, there is an almost complete importance, there is an almost complete absence of research on it. And Wade can absence of research on it. And Wade can absence of research on it. And Wade can talk about the reasons for that. But one talk about the reasons for that. But one talk about the reasons for that. But one of the things that struck me when I was of the things that struck me when I was of the things that struck me when I was interviewing people in the Andes about interviewing people in the Andes about interviewing people in the Andes about the GI effects was that the respondents the GI effects was that the respondents the GI effects was that the respondents said that it treated both diarrhea and said that it treated both diarrhea and said that it treated both diarrhea and constipation. That doesn't make any constipation. That doesn't make any constipation. That doesn't make any sense from the point of view of Western sense from the point of view of Western sense from the point of view of Western pharmacology. Cocaine is a gut pharmacology. Cocaine is a gut pharmacology. Cocaine is a gut stimulant. So obviously be great for stimulant. So obviously be great for stimulant. So obviously be great for constipation, but it couldn't do constipation, but it couldn't do constipation, but it couldn't do anything for diarrhea except make it anything for diarrhea except make it anything for diarrhea except make it worse. And that always puzzled me. But worse. And that always puzzled me. But worse. And that always puzzled me. But then looking at these other cocoa then looking at these other cocoa then looking at these other cocoa alkyoids, there's something peculiar alkyoids, there's something peculiar alkyoids, there's something peculiar about them. If you look at the about them. If you look at the about them. If you look at the structural formula of the molecules, structural formula of the molecules, structural formula of the molecules, they resemble drugs like atropene and they resemble drugs like atropene and they resemble drugs like atropene and scapalamine which are found in scapalamine which are found in scapalamine which are found in nightshade plants and those are gut nightshade plants and those are gut nightshade plants and those are gut paralytics. Scapalamine has been used in paralytics. Scapalamine has been used in paralytics. Scapalamine has been used in medicine to treat diarrhea. So this is medicine to treat diarrhea. So this is medicine to treat diarrhea. So this is kind of a paradox. You've got a molecule kind of a paradox. You've got a molecule kind of a paradox. You've got a molecule that just from its shape you predict that just from its shape you predict that just from its shape you predict would be a gut paralytic, but in fact would be a gut paralytic, but in fact would be a gut paralytic, but in fact cocaine is a is a gut stimulant. So how cocaine is a is a gut stimulant. So how cocaine is a is a gut stimulant. So how does this work? I think you know this is does this work? I think you know this is does this work? I think you know this is a model for the differences between a a model for the differences between a a model for the differences between a whole plant drug and an isolated whole plant drug and an isolated whole plant drug and an isolated compound. I think when you present the compound. I think when you present the compound. I think when you present the body with this mix of body with this mix of body with this mix of ambivalent ambivalent ambivalent molecules you know that they push and molecules you know that they push and molecules you know that they push and they pull against physiology the body they pull against physiology the body they pull against physiology the body decides what it wants to use. And that's decides what it wants to use. And that's decides what it wants to use. And that's not attributing mystical intelligence to not attributing mystical intelligence to not attributing mystical intelligence to the body. It may be which receptors are the body. It may be which receptors are the body. It may be which receptors are available for binding at the moment. So available for binding at the moment. So available for binding at the moment. So if there is an overactive gut motility, if there is an overactive gut motility, if there is an overactive gut motility, it selects the ones that slow that down. it selects the ones that slow that down. it selects the ones that slow that down. That's fascinating to me that Koka has That's fascinating to me that Koka has That's fascinating to me that Koka has this sort of paradoxical activity and this sort of paradoxical activity and this sort of paradoxical activity and lets the body can choose which action it lets the body can choose which action it lets the body can choose which action it wants. wants. wants. >> Mhm. [clears throat] So beyond let's >> Mhm. [clears throat] So beyond let's >> Mhm. [clears throat] So beyond let's just say you know the motility making just say you know the motility making just say you know the motility making bowel movement regular for lack of a bowel movement regular for lack of a bowel movement regular for lack of a better descriptor is it ever used by better descriptor is it ever used by better descriptor is it ever used by indigenous populations for what we might indigenous populations for what we might indigenous populations for what we might consider illnesses like Crohn's disease consider illnesses like Crohn's disease consider illnesses like Crohn's disease or irritable bowel syndrome I don't even or irritable bowel syndrome I don't even or irritable bowel syndrome I don't even know what the occurrence of those things know what the occurrence of those things know what the occurrence of those things would be in such populations but is it would be in such populations but is it would be in such populations but is it used for other indications used for other indications used for other indications >> it is the great remedy for all GI >> it is the great remedy for all GI >> it is the great remedy for all GI disorders and also they believe that it disorders and also they believe that it disorders and also they believe that it helps them utilize helps them utilize helps them utilize the nutritional qualities of foods that the nutritional qualities of foods that the nutritional qualities of foods that they consume. they consume. they consume. >> They often feel that if they don't >> They often feel that if they don't >> They often feel that if they don't follow like a meal, one of their high follow like a meal, one of their high follow like a meal, one of their high starch meals with a chew of cocoa that starch meals with a chew of cocoa that starch meals with a chew of cocoa that they don't metabolize it well. There has they don't metabolize it well. There has they don't metabolize it well. There has been almost no research on this, but been almost no research on this, but been almost no research on this, but there was one really interesting study there was one really interesting study there was one really interesting study done with Andian Indians, having them done with Andian Indians, having them done with Andian Indians, having them ride exercise bikes and measuring blood ride exercise bikes and measuring blood ride exercise bikes and measuring blood sugar at intervals after they gave them sugar at intervals after they gave them sugar at intervals after they gave them a glucose load. And at any point in the a glucose load. And at any point in the a glucose load. And at any point in the cycle where they began to choka, blood cycle where they began to choka, blood cycle where they began to choka, blood sugar would normalize. So, this is just sugar would normalize. So, this is just sugar would normalize. So, this is just one study that was done some time ago. one study that was done some time ago. one study that was done some time ago. And I I mean gosh that should just call And I I mean gosh that should just call And I I mean gosh that should just call out for a whole lot more work of that out for a whole lot more work of that out for a whole lot more work of that kind. Yeah, that's fascinating. kind. Yeah, that's fascinating. kind. Yeah, that's fascinating. >> Yeah, super fascinating. So I wanted to >> Yeah, super fascinating. So I wanted to >> Yeah, super fascinating. So I wanted to just mention a few things for folks just mention a few things for folks just mention a few things for folks pulling from what you just said. So you pulling from what you just said. So you pulling from what you just said. So you mentioned Dick Shalties. If people don't mentioned Dick Shalties. If people don't mentioned Dick Shalties. If people don't recognize the name Richard Evan recognize the name Richard Evan recognize the name Richard Evan Schulties, I guess that's what s ces. Schulties, I guess that's what s ces. Schulties, I guess that's what s ces. Look him up. Do yourself a favor and Look him up. Do yourself a favor and Look him up. Do yourself a favor and look up Richard Evans Schulty's. The bio look up Richard Evans Schulty's. The bio look up Richard Evans Schulty's. The bio on Richard on Richard on Richard >> and Wade was his graduate student. >> and Wade was his graduate student. >> and Wade was his graduate student. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. >> I worked with him as an undergraduate, >> I worked with him as an undergraduate, >> I worked with him as an undergraduate, but that's how Wade and I first met but that's how Wade and I first met but that's how Wade and I first met through him. through him. through him. >> Just incredible. And I may come back to >> Just incredible. And I may come back to >> Just incredible. And I may come back to the peppermint chamomile sidebar that the peppermint chamomile sidebar that the peppermint chamomile sidebar that you had because you had because you had because that seems interesting in and of itself. that seems interesting in and of itself. that seems interesting in and of itself. But but to your point of isolated But but to your point of isolated But but to your point of isolated components of a plant versus the whole components of a plant versus the whole components of a plant versus the whole plant, there are many historical plant, there are many historical plant, there are many historical examples of this. one that we could pull examples of this. one that we could pull examples of this. one that we could pull from that from that from that can show perhaps the pitfalls of can show perhaps the pitfalls of can show perhaps the pitfalls of isolation. Not to say there aren't isolation. Not to say there aren't isolation. Not to say there aren't applications of isolations, right? It's applications of isolations, right? It's applications of isolations, right? It's better to take something like aspirin better to take something like aspirin better to take something like aspirin than white willow bark perhaps. But if than white willow bark perhaps. But if than white willow bark perhaps. But if scientists came to the premature scientists came to the premature scientists came to the premature conclusion that well, if consuming foods conclusion that well, if consuming foods conclusion that well, if consuming foods with betaarotene seems to be supportive with betaarotene seems to be supportive with betaarotene seems to be supportive to vision, why don't we just mainline to vision, why don't we just mainline to vision, why don't we just mainline >> isolated betaarotene turns out not to be >> isolated betaarotene turns out not to be >> isolated betaarotene turns out not to be a great idea. Right. Right. a great idea. Right. Right. a great idea. Right. Right. >> There's a lot more research needed. >> There's a lot more research needed. >> There's a lot more research needed. Wade, do you want to speak to your first Wade, do you want to speak to your first Wade, do you want to speak to your first introduction encounter with Koka and introduction encounter with Koka and introduction encounter with Koka and perhaps speak to why rehabilitation is perhaps speak to why rehabilitation is perhaps speak to why rehabilitation is even needed? I think some people might even needed? I think some people might even needed? I think some people might jump to the conclusions like well jump to the conclusions like well jump to the conclusions like well cocaine drug trade period end of story, cocaine drug trade period end of story, cocaine drug trade period end of story, but I suspect there's probably more but I suspect there's probably more but I suspect there's probably more there. there. there. >> Well, you know, the thing is Tim, I >> Well, you know, the thing is Tim, I >> Well, you know, the thing is Tim, I mean, coke has been used in South mean, coke has been used in South mean, coke has been used in South America by virtually every culture of America by virtually every culture of America by virtually every culture of the Andine and Northwest Amazon for the Andine and Northwest Amazon for the Andine and Northwest Amazon for 8,000 years. And during that time, 8,000 years. And during that time, 8,000 years. And during that time, there's been no evidence whatsoever of there's been no evidence whatsoever of there's been no evidence whatsoever of any toxicity, let alone addiction. My any toxicity, let alone addiction. My any toxicity, let alone addiction. My first encounter was actually with Tim first encounter was actually with Tim first encounter was actually with Tim Plowman, a good friend of Andes, who Plowman, a good friend of Andes, who Plowman, a good friend of Andes, who introduced me to Andy, who had a great introduced me to Andy, who had a great introduced me to Andy, who had a great grant through Schulties to study coke in grant through Schulties to study coke in grant through Schulties to study coke in the 1970s. And it spoke to the fact what the 1970s. And it spoke to the fact what the 1970s. And it spoke to the fact what Andy said is how little was known about Andy said is how little was known about Andy said is how little was known about the plant. To me, one of the most the plant. To me, one of the most the plant. To me, one of the most astonishing things is that the plant had astonishing things is that the plant had astonishing things is that the plant had been demonized from the 1920s. And yet, been demonized from the 1920s. And yet, been demonized from the 1920s. And yet, no one had ever bothered to do a no one had ever bothered to do a no one had ever bothered to do a nutritional study until Tim and Jim Duke nutritional study until Tim and Jim Duke nutritional study until Tim and Jim Duke did that and published in 1975. And Andy did that and published in 1975. And Andy did that and published in 1975. And Andy was sort of on part of that team. And was sort of on part of that team. And was sort of on part of that team. And the results were extraordinary. Not only the results were extraordinary. Not only the results were extraordinary. Not only did it have a modest amount of the did it have a modest amount of the did it have a modest amount of the alkyoid absorbed benignly in the mucous alkyoid absorbed benignly in the mucous alkyoid absorbed benignly in the mucous membrane of the mouth, but it was chalk membrane of the mouth, but it was chalk membrane of the mouth, but it was chalk full of vitamins and proteins, more full of vitamins and proteins, more full of vitamins and proteins, more calcium than any other plant studied. As calcium than any other plant studied. As calcium than any other plant studied. As Andy alluded to it, enzymes that perhaps Andy alluded to it, enzymes that perhaps Andy alluded to it, enzymes that perhaps enhance the ability of the body to enhance the ability of the body to enhance the ability of the body to digest carbohydrate at high elevation. digest carbohydrate at high elevation. digest carbohydrate at high elevation. This was food and medicine, utterly This was food and medicine, utterly This was food and medicine, utterly benign. And the question comes, why benign. And the question comes, why benign. And the question comes, why didn't someone do a study? And they didn't someone do a study? And they didn't someone do a study? And they didn't do a study because they didn't didn't do a study because they didn't didn't do a study because they didn't want to know. And I think the single want to know. And I think the single want to know. And I think the single most disturbing fact about cocoa is that most disturbing fact about cocoa is that most disturbing fact about cocoa is that the efforts to eradicate the fields, the the efforts to eradicate the fields, the the efforts to eradicate the fields, the traditional fields of cocoa began 60 traditional fields of cocoa began 60 traditional fields of cocoa began 60 years before there was a cocaine years before there was a cocaine years before there was a cocaine problem. It had nothing to do with the problem. It had nothing to do with the problem. It had nothing to do with the pharmacology of cocaine hydrochloride pharmacology of cocaine hydrochloride pharmacology of cocaine hydrochloride and everything to do with the cultural and everything to do with the cultural and everything to do with the cultural identity of the indigenous people who identity of the indigenous people who identity of the indigenous people who revered the plant. And what happened is revered the plant. And what happened is revered the plant. And what happened is physicians in Lima in particular looked physicians in Lima in particular looked physicians in Lima in particular looked up into the Andes and they saw social up into the Andes and they saw social up into the Andes and they saw social pathologies of literacy, poor nutrition, pathologies of literacy, poor nutrition, pathologies of literacy, poor nutrition, poverty, and because issues of economics poverty, and because issues of economics poverty, and because issues of economics and land reform and real economic and land reform and real economic and land reform and real economic justice challenged the foundation of justice challenged the foundation of justice challenged the foundation of their bourgeoa lives in Lima, they had their bourgeoa lives in Lima, they had their bourgeoa lives in Lima, they had to find a culprit and they settled on to find a culprit and they settled on to find a culprit and they settled on Koka. Koka. Koka. >> My observation is that Peru is actually >> My observation is that Peru is actually >> My observation is that Peru is actually a country with two nations within it. a country with two nations within it. a country with two nations within it. There is the white European nation with There is the white European nation with There is the white European nation with its capital at Lima that has alcohol as its capital at Lima that has alcohol as its capital at Lima that has alcohol as its preferred psychoactive drug and its preferred psychoactive drug and its preferred psychoactive drug and there's the indigenous population mostly there's the indigenous population mostly there's the indigenous population mostly living at high altitude and some in the living at high altitude and some in the living at high altitude and some in the Amazon that rely on cocoa and those two Amazon that rely on cocoa and those two Amazon that rely on cocoa and those two cultures have been at war with each cultures have been at war with each cultures have been at war with each other ever since. And I think that for other ever since. And I think that for other ever since. And I think that for the Europeans coca chewing became a the Europeans coca chewing became a the Europeans coca chewing became a symbol of indigenous culture and symbol of indigenous culture and symbol of indigenous culture and everything they didn't like. And what everything they didn't like. And what everything they didn't like. And what they would love to see is either they would love to see is either they would love to see is either eradicate that culture or have it turn eradicate that culture or have it turn eradicate that culture or have it turn into the same as them. into the same as them. into the same as them. >> Well, I mean these efforts were really >> Well, I mean these efforts were really >> Well, I mean these efforts were really pernitious and based on pseudocience. pernitious and based on pseudocience. pernitious and based on pseudocience. And during all those years, including a And during all those years, including a And during all those years, including a famous commission dispatched in the late famous commission dispatched in the late famous commission dispatched in the late 1940s by the UN to study the so-called 1940s by the UN to study the so-called 1940s by the UN to study the so-called Koka problem. That commission led by a Koka problem. That commission led by a Koka problem. That commission led by a man called Howard Fonda who was a man called Howard Fonda who was a man called Howard Fonda who was a pharmaceutical executive announced its pharmaceutical executive announced its pharmaceutical executive announced its conclusions before leaving New York. and conclusions before leaving New York. and conclusions before leaving New York. and upon arrival in Lemur reiterated word upon arrival in Lemur reiterated word upon arrival in Lemur reiterated word for word those same conclusions that the for word those same conclusions that the for word those same conclusions that the plant had be eradicated and they spent plant had be eradicated and they spent plant had be eradicated and they spent three months in the southern Andes three months in the southern Andes three months in the southern Andes meeting with military officials ales meeting with military officials ales meeting with military officials ales government officials priests they didn't government officials priests they didn't government officials priests they didn't interview a single traditional user of interview a single traditional user of interview a single traditional user of the leaf and naturally they concluded the leaf and naturally they concluded the leaf and naturally they concluded that this plant had to be eradicated and that this plant had to be eradicated and that this plant had to be eradicated and I think if you really look at the I think if you really look at the I think if you really look at the language that they used it was not just language that they used it was not just language that they used it was not just dark it was racist And that alludes to dark it was racist And that alludes to dark it was racist And that alludes to what Andy is saying that until recently what Andy is saying that until recently what Andy is saying that until recently Latin America, not just Peru, is very Latin America, not just Peru, is very Latin America, not just Peru, is very much a place of conqueror and conquered. much a place of conqueror and conquered. much a place of conqueror and conquered. And Koka became the symbol of everything And Koka became the symbol of everything And Koka became the symbol of everything indigenous and therefore shameful to indigenous and therefore shameful to indigenous and therefore shameful to these elites. these elites. these elites. >> Wade, do you want to say something about >> Wade, do you want to say something about >> Wade, do you want to say something about the recent WH study, which is a the recent WH study, which is a the recent WH study, which is a continuation of all this? incredibly continuation of all this? incredibly continuation of all this? incredibly this condemnation of Koka was in this condemnation of Koka was in this condemnation of Koka was in language that was just so dark and language that was just so dark and language that was just so dark and racist. And the amazing thing though is racist. And the amazing thing though is racist. And the amazing thing though is that these very people with their that these very people with their that these very people with their pseudocientific studies and their pseudocientific studies and their pseudocientific studies and their hideous approach and language were the hideous approach and language were the hideous approach and language were the very ones who wrote the language of the very ones who wrote the language of the very ones who wrote the language of the regulations and conventions that dictate regulations and conventions that dictate regulations and conventions that dictate international drug policy to this day, international drug policy to this day, international drug policy to this day, including the 1961 UN Declaration on including the 1961 UN Declaration on including the 1961 UN Declaration on Narcotic Drugs. And in all of this time, Narcotic Drugs. And in all of this time, Narcotic Drugs. And in all of this time, there have been no effort to actually there have been no effort to actually there have been no effort to actually identify the real value of the plant. identify the real value of the plant. identify the real value of the plant. And efforts have been underway more And efforts have been underway more And efforts have been underway more recently to get cocoa descheduled or recently to get cocoa descheduled or recently to get cocoa descheduled or rescheduled. In the UN system, cocoa rescheduled. In the UN system, cocoa rescheduled. In the UN system, cocoa leaf is now scheduled alongside with leaf is now scheduled alongside with leaf is now scheduled alongside with fentanyl and heroin as among the most fentanyl and heroin as among the most fentanyl and heroin as among the most dangerous drugs in the world. And the dangerous drugs in the world. And the dangerous drugs in the world. And the efforts that we've been trying to do is efforts that we've been trying to do is efforts that we've been trying to do is to get it to either be scheduled to the to get it to either be scheduled to the to get it to either be scheduled to the point where it's seen to be of problems point where it's seen to be of problems point where it's seen to be of problems but medicinal [clears throat] potential but medicinal [clears throat] potential but medicinal [clears throat] potential or better yet descheduled altogether so or better yet descheduled altogether so or better yet descheduled altogether so that we can create elicit market for the that we can create elicit market for the that we can create elicit market for the plant. And here's the reason for that. plant. And here's the reason for that. plant. And here's the reason for that. We have 250,000 families in Colombia We have 250,000 families in Colombia We have 250,000 families in Colombia that grow cocoa to survive. We need to that grow cocoa to survive. We need to that grow cocoa to survive. We need to give them elicit outlet for their give them elicit outlet for their give them elicit outlet for their product. product. product. Columbia as a nation needs the revenue, Columbia as a nation needs the revenue, Columbia as a nation needs the revenue, the tax revenue that can come from the the tax revenue that can come from the the tax revenue that can come from the international commercialization of the international commercialization of the international commercialization of the leave to pay for the cost of peace, leave to pay for the cost of peace, leave to pay for the cost of peace, having drained its treasury for 60 years having drained its treasury for 60 years having drained its treasury for 60 years to pay the costs of a war that would to pay the costs of a war that would to pay the costs of a war that would have not lasted a day without the sorted have not lasted a day without the sorted have not lasted a day without the sorted profits of prohibition. And above all, profits of prohibition. And above all, profits of prohibition. And above all, the world's population has a right to the world's population has a right to the world's population has a right to benefit from this plant. You know, we benefit from this plant. You know, we benefit from this plant. You know, we have an enormous substance abuse problem have an enormous substance abuse problem have an enormous substance abuse problem in our country and a lot of it has to do in our country and a lot of it has to do in our country and a lot of it has to do with stimulant abuse. with stimulant abuse. with stimulant abuse. >> There's also the problem of the I think >> There's also the problem of the I think >> There's also the problem of the I think the reckless prescribing of stimulants the reckless prescribing of stimulants the reckless prescribing of stimulants to kids. to kids. to kids. >> Andy, could I ask you to bookmark that >> Andy, could I ask you to bookmark that >> Andy, could I ask you to bookmark that for a second cuz I want to give people a for a second cuz I want to give people a for a second cuz I want to give people a window into cocoa leaf. Okay. So they window into cocoa leaf. Okay. So they window into cocoa leaf. Okay. So they understand the subjective experience for understand the subjective experience for understand the subjective experience for a second. a second. a second. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> In Peru and other places, I mean, >> In Peru and other places, I mean, >> In Peru and other places, I mean, shocking to me. I think it was in Peru shocking to me. I think it was in Peru shocking to me. I think it was in Peru where I saw they were selling boxes of where I saw they were selling boxes of where I saw they were selling boxes of cocoa leaf tea in the international cocoa leaf tea in the international cocoa leaf tea in the international departures departures departures wing and I was like guys I want to take wing and I was like guys I want to take wing and I was like guys I want to take this with me but I can't. The subjective this with me but I can't. The subjective this with me but I can't. The subjective effect of drinking cocoa leaf tea is a effect of drinking cocoa leaf tea is a effect of drinking cocoa leaf tea is a among other things a stimulant effect among other things a stimulant effect among other things a stimulant effect that is far less for me than a half a that is far less for me than a half a that is far less for me than a half a cup of coffee but without the subsequent cup of coffee but without the subsequent cup of coffee but without the subsequent crash that may be due to any number of crash that may be due to any number of crash that may be due to any number of things. I think it could be a glucose things. I think it could be a glucose things. I think it could be a glucose spike and then sort of subsequent crash spike and then sort of subsequent crash spike and then sort of subsequent crash but it is very very very mild. but it is very very very mild. but it is very very very mild. >> Okay. Now I have to say that cocoa leaf >> Okay. Now I have to say that cocoa leaf >> Okay. Now I have to say that cocoa leaf tea is not the most efficient way to use tea is not the most efficient way to use tea is not the most efficient way to use cocoa. cocoa. cocoa. >> No it isn't. It isn't. >> No it isn't. It isn't. >> No it isn't. It isn't. >> The traditional way is to hold leaves in >> The traditional way is to hold leaves in >> The traditional way is to hold leaves in your mouth. your mouth. your mouth. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Moisten them. Add an alkali which >> Moisten them. Add an alkali which >> Moisten them. Add an alkali which promotes absorption of the alkaloids and promotes absorption of the alkaloids and promotes absorption of the alkaloids and let it slowly diffuse into the let it slowly diffuse into the let it slowly diffuse into the bloodstream. Mhm. bloodstream. Mhm. bloodstream. Mhm. >> Now, I don't think people up here are >> Now, I don't think people up here are >> Now, I don't think people up here are going to chew a mouthful of leaves, but going to chew a mouthful of leaves, but going to chew a mouthful of leaves, but you know, I've always thought we could you know, I've always thought we could you know, I've always thought we could make a lozenge or a chewing gum that make a lozenge or a chewing gum that make a lozenge or a chewing gum that would reproduce that effect. would reproduce that effect. would reproduce that effect. >> Well, you could have a snooze packet >> Well, you could have a snooze packet >> Well, you could have a snooze packet like nicotine, right? like nicotine, right? like nicotine, right? >> Yeah. Right. Exactly. But the stimulant >> Yeah. Right. Exactly. But the stimulant >> Yeah. Right. Exactly. But the stimulant effect is so much milder, and Wade can effect is so much milder, and Wade can effect is so much milder, and Wade can talk to this too, I think, than coffee, talk to this too, I think, than coffee, talk to this too, I think, than coffee, for example, or than any of the for example, or than any of the for example, or than any of the pharmaceutical stimulants. The really pharmaceutical stimulants. The really pharmaceutical stimulants. The really fascinating literature is in the late fascinating literature is in the late fascinating literature is in the late 19th century when physicians traveling 19th century when physicians traveling 19th century when physicians traveling in Peru were aware of the hazards of in Peru were aware of the hazards of in Peru were aware of the hazards of cocaine but not yet judging the leaves cocaine but not yet judging the leaves cocaine but not yet judging the leaves reflexively. And the reports have this reflexively. And the reports have this reflexively. And the reports have this ingenuous quality to him. Like I mean ingenuous quality to him. Like I mean ingenuous quality to him. Like I mean there's one from the head of the British there's one from the head of the British there's one from the head of the British Medical Association who was 78 years old Medical Association who was 78 years old Medical Association who was 78 years old and he gots up in the morning, walks and he gots up in the morning, walks and he gots up in the morning, walks halfway across Scotland, climbs a halfway across Scotland, climbs a halfway across Scotland, climbs a mountain, gets down, doesn't eat all day mountain, gets down, doesn't eat all day mountain, gets down, doesn't eat all day and says, "Well, that was quite a day." and says, "Well, that was quite a day." and says, "Well, that was quite a day." In other words, there's this Mortimer In other words, there's this Mortimer In other words, there's this Mortimer calls it like the stimulant that's not a calls it like the stimulant that's not a calls it like the stimulant that's not a stimulant. And so this is really the way stimulant. And so this is really the way stimulant. And so this is really the way the plant operates, the subtlety of it. the plant operates, the subtlety of it. the plant operates, the subtlety of it. You don't feel you're stimulated. You You don't feel you're stimulated. You You don't feel you're stimulated. You just recognize the results of having just recognize the results of having just recognize the results of having been able to focus, concentrate, and been able to focus, concentrate, and been able to focus, concentrate, and remain at task in a creative way through remain at task in a creative way through remain at task in a creative way through a long period of time. We do a little a long period of time. We do a little a long period of time. We do a little thought experiment. If I told you there thought experiment. If I told you there thought experiment. If I told you there was a plant that you could take that was a plant that you could take that was a plant that you could take that gave you a slight lightness of being, a gave you a slight lightness of being, a gave you a slight lightness of being, a slight kind of skip in your step, a slight kind of skip in your step, a slight kind of skip in your step, a sense of well-being that eliminated all sense of well-being that eliminated all sense of well-being that eliminated all the sort of existential little neurosis the sort of existential little neurosis the sort of existential little neurosis that we all suffer as conscious beings, that we all suffer as conscious beings, that we all suffer as conscious beings, and it allowed you to focus at task, and it allowed you to focus at task, and it allowed you to focus at task, whatever that creative task was, whether whatever that creative task was, whether whatever that creative task was, whether it was a spinning of wool or the writing it was a spinning of wool or the writing it was a spinning of wool or the writing of digital code, and you could sit at of digital code, and you could sit at of digital code, and you could sit at task all day long, concentrating on task task all day long, concentrating on task task all day long, concentrating on task with immense focus. with immense focus. with immense focus. with no sense of being under the with no sense of being under the with no sense of being under the influence of any plant, nothing as harsh influence of any plant, nothing as harsh influence of any plant, nothing as harsh as a second cup of coffee, and you found as a second cup of coffee, and you found as a second cup of coffee, and you found yourself at the end of the day ready to yourself at the end of the day ready to yourself at the end of the day ready to go home, have dinner, and do it all over go home, have dinner, and do it all over go home, have dinner, and do it all over again the next day. The truth is that again the next day. The truth is that again the next day. The truth is that cocoa has this capacity to improve our cocoa has this capacity to improve our cocoa has this capacity to improve our lives. It also helps with weight lives. It also helps with weight lives. It also helps with weight management, Tim, because it makes you management, Tim, because it makes you management, Tim, because it makes you less hungry and feeling like you want to less hungry and feeling like you want to less hungry and feeling like you want to move. So that is a very desirable thing move. So that is a very desirable thing move. So that is a very desirable thing that many people would find useful and I that many people would find useful and I that many people would find useful and I think the mood elevating effects of think the mood elevating effects of think the mood elevating effects of cocoa are very significant. cocoa are very significant. cocoa are very significant. >> Let me ask a question on the mind of a >> Let me ask a question on the mind of a >> Let me ask a question on the mind of a lot of listeners. I'll also just add in lot of listeners. I'll also just add in lot of listeners. I'll also just add in I have used the sort of mouth buckle in I have used the sort of mouth buckle in I have used the sort of mouth buckle in the form of goes by a million different the form of goes by a million different the form of goes by a million different names you know mambbe or whatever and names you know mambbe or whatever and names you know mambbe or whatever and even in that case very very mild even in that case very very mild even in that case very very mild >> and what I would say if I were to >> and what I would say if I were to >> and what I would say if I were to compare it to other things as my compare it to other things as my compare it to other things as my long-term listeners might imagine I've long-term listeners might imagine I've long-term listeners might imagine I've tried medapanyl I've tried the various tried medapanyl I've tried the various tried medapanyl I've tried the various empetamines you know aderall rolin etc empetamines you know aderall rolin etc empetamines you know aderall rolin etc and the difference is that number one and the difference is that number one and the difference is that number one you have thousands of years of human use you have thousands of years of human use you have thousands of years of human use documented in the case of cocoa. documented in the case of cocoa. documented in the case of cocoa. Secondly, I did not seem to develop any Secondly, I did not seem to develop any Secondly, I did not seem to develop any type I'm sure you do develop some type I'm sure you do develop some type I'm sure you do develop some tolerance. But for instance, if I use tolerance. But for instance, if I use tolerance. But for instance, if I use medafanyl for 2 or 3 days and I stop, I medafanyl for 2 or 3 days and I stop, I medafanyl for 2 or 3 days and I stop, I immediately feel a physical requirement immediately feel a physical requirement immediately feel a physical requirement to use it to get back to my prior to use it to get back to my prior to use it to get back to my prior baseline. And that does not happen in baseline. And that does not happen in baseline. And that does not happen in the case of cocoa. It certainly happens the case of cocoa. It certainly happens the case of cocoa. It certainly happens in the case of caffeine for me in the case of caffeine for me in the case of caffeine for me >> and cocaine. >> and cocaine. >> and cocaine. >> And cocaine. But the question I want to >> And cocaine. But the question I want to >> And cocaine. But the question I want to ask is, you know, Wade, you mentioned ask is, you know, Wade, you mentioned ask is, you know, Wade, you mentioned this enormous number of families this enormous number of families this enormous number of families dependent on growing cocoa. On an dependent on growing cocoa. On an dependent on growing cocoa. On an individual level, I can see how, hey, if individual level, I can see how, hey, if individual level, I can see how, hey, if you ship me a small box of coca leaf for you ship me a small box of coca leaf for you ship me a small box of coca leaf for my personal use, there's no way I'm my personal use, there's no way I'm my personal use, there's no way I'm going to convert that into cocaine. But going to convert that into cocaine. But going to convert that into cocaine. But how do you on a national level if these how do you on a national level if these how do you on a national level if these farms are pre-existing decouple the the farms are pre-existing decouple the the farms are pre-existing decouple the the good of listenit cocoa while good of listenit cocoa while good of listenit cocoa while simultaneously constraining the evils of simultaneously constraining the evils of simultaneously constraining the evils of cocaine production? Is that possible? cocaine production? Is that possible? cocaine production? Is that possible? >> Well, I mean the thing there is that the >> Well, I mean the thing there is that the >> Well, I mean the thing there is that the status of cocoa has no relevance status of cocoa has no relevance status of cocoa has no relevance whatsoever to the cartels. With cocoa as whatsoever to the cartels. With cocoa as whatsoever to the cartels. With cocoa as a prohibited substance, they've made a prohibited substance, they've made a prohibited substance, they've made fortunes shipping cocaine by the ton for fortunes shipping cocaine by the ton for fortunes shipping cocaine by the ton for 50 years in the United States. And where 50 years in the United States. And where 50 years in the United States. And where cocoa leaves to be legal with a listenit cocoa leaves to be legal with a listenit cocoa leaves to be legal with a listenit commercial export market, you would commercial export market, you would commercial export market, you would still maintain the same controls over still maintain the same controls over still maintain the same controls over the illicit production of cocaine that the illicit production of cocaine that the illicit production of cocaine that you have today. So it's kind of you have today. So it's kind of you have today. So it's kind of irrelevant. The critical thing is that irrelevant. The critical thing is that irrelevant. The critical thing is that crop substitution programs are an crop substitution programs are an crop substitution programs are an illusion because how do you transport to illusion because how do you transport to illusion because how do you transport to market cacao or bananas when you can market cacao or bananas when you can market cacao or bananas when you can take cocoa paste and put it in your take cocoa paste and put it in your take cocoa paste and put it in your muila and walk down the trail? And so muila and walk down the trail? And so muila and walk down the trail? And so this expansion of cocoa production is this expansion of cocoa production is this expansion of cocoa production is going on dramatically and it's having going on dramatically and it's having going on dramatically and it's having huge impacts on tropical rainforest. So huge impacts on tropical rainforest. So huge impacts on tropical rainforest. So deforestation since the peace agreement deforestation since the peace agreement deforestation since the peace agreement in Colombia is very disturbing. And yet in Colombia is very disturbing. And yet in Colombia is very disturbing. And yet we have millions of acres of already cut we have millions of acres of already cut we have millions of acres of already cut over land that we could cultivate cocoa over land that we could cultivate cocoa over land that we could cultivate cocoa on for the well-being of the people. And on for the well-being of the people. And on for the well-being of the people. And you know, I think it's worth just you know, I think it's worth just you know, I think it's worth just thinking about the history of this thinking about the history of this thinking about the history of this plant, 8,000 years. One of the most plant, 8,000 years. One of the most plant, 8,000 years. One of the most amazing things about cocoa is that it's amazing things about cocoa is that it's amazing things about cocoa is that it's been domesticated not once, not twice, been domesticated not once, not twice, been domesticated not once, not twice, but three separate times in human but three separate times in human but three separate times in human history. That is unheard of. And Tim, I history. That is unheard of. And Tim, I history. That is unheard of. And Tim, I think, you know, one um approach to the think, you know, one um approach to the think, you know, one um approach to the problem you brought up is education, problem you brought up is education, problem you brought up is education, which I'm a great believer in. I think which I'm a great believer in. I think which I'm a great believer in. I think if people knew what cocoa was and if people knew what cocoa was and if people knew what cocoa was and understood its benefits, they would understood its benefits, they would understood its benefits, they would demand it. They'd want it. And that demand it. They'd want it. And that demand it. They'd want it. And that includes even people who use cocaine. I includes even people who use cocaine. I includes even people who use cocaine. I have known a number of people who got have known a number of people who got have known a number of people who got strung out on cocaine and experienced a strung out on cocaine and experienced a strung out on cocaine and experienced a lot of negative effects from it. And lot of negative effects from it. And lot of negative effects from it. And when they tried coca and used it when they tried coca and used it when they tried coca and used it properly, they saw that it was a much properly, they saw that it was a much properly, they saw that it was a much more desirable state and they didn't more desirable state and they didn't more desirable state and they didn't want to use cocaine anymore. So I think want to use cocaine anymore. So I think want to use cocaine anymore. So I think that's something we could do. By the that's something we could do. By the that's something we could do. By the way, it should also mention that through way, it should also mention that through way, it should also mention that through an accident of history, cocoa is in an accident of history, cocoa is in an accident of history, cocoa is in schedule two of the controlled schedule two of the controlled schedule two of the controlled substances act, not schedule one like substances act, not schedule one like substances act, not schedule one like cannabis and psychedelics. It got there cannabis and psychedelics. It got there cannabis and psychedelics. It got there and schedule 2 is substances that have a and schedule 2 is substances that have a and schedule 2 is substances that have a high potential for abuse but have high potential for abuse but have high potential for abuse but have recognized therapeutic application. It's recognized therapeutic application. It's recognized therapeutic application. It's only there because cocaine has limited only there because cocaine has limited only there because cocaine has limited uses as a medical drug in athalmology uses as a medical drug in athalmology uses as a medical drug in athalmology and dentistry. and dentistry. and dentistry. But that makes it a little easier, you But that makes it a little easier, you But that makes it a little easier, you know, to leverage cocoa out of that know, to leverage cocoa out of that know, to leverage cocoa out of that controlled substance box. controlled substance box. controlled substance box. >> It's just a matter of demonstrating that >> It's just a matter of demonstrating that >> It's just a matter of demonstrating that there are therapeutic applications that there are therapeutic applications that there are therapeutic applications that the FDA could approve. the FDA could approve. the FDA could approve. >> All right. So, I want to fill in a gap >> All right. So, I want to fill in a gap >> All right. So, I want to fill in a gap and then come back to problem solving. and then come back to problem solving. and then come back to problem solving. But before we get to the problem solving But before we get to the problem solving But before we get to the problem solving and policy work, I'll plant a seed, and policy work, I'll plant a seed, and policy work, I'll plant a seed, which is if these farmers suddenly could which is if these farmers suddenly could which is if these farmers suddenly could legally legally legally ship product that for export or domestic ship product that for export or domestic ship product that for export or domestic use in the form of cocoa, could they use in the form of cocoa, could they use in the form of cocoa, could they actually get around the cartel or would actually get around the cartel or would actually get around the cartel or would they be putting a bullseye on their they be putting a bullseye on their they be putting a bullseye on their forehead? That's a question not for now, forehead? That's a question not for now, forehead? That's a question not for now, but for later. What I'd like to talk but for later. What I'd like to talk but for later. What I'd like to talk about first is the about first is the about first is the indigenous cultural context in which indigenous cultural context in which indigenous cultural context in which koka is used and its importance right koka is used and its importance right koka is used and its importance right because as you mentioned I mean it's not because as you mentioned I mean it's not because as you mentioned I mean it's not exactly ubiquitous in South America but exactly ubiquitous in South America but exactly ubiquitous in South America but in a handful of countries in a handful of countries in a handful of countries I mean cocoa is considered I mean cocoa is considered I mean cocoa is considered for lack of a better term a master plant for lack of a better term a master plant for lack of a better term a master plant right a sacred plant. There are four right a sacred plant. There are four right a sacred plant. There are four different varieties that Tim Plowman different varieties that Tim Plowman different varieties that Tim Plowman identified of cultivated cocoa. Two identified of cultivated cocoa. Two identified of cultivated cocoa. Two species each with two different species each with two different species each with two different varieties. And we now know that from DNA varieties. And we now know that from DNA varieties. And we now know that from DNA analysis that the progenitor of all four analysis that the progenitor of all four analysis that the progenitor of all four varieties was a wild cocoa called varieties was a wild cocoa called varieties was a wild cocoa called aeriththroam graasalipes that grows aeriththroam graasalipes that grows aeriththroam graasalipes that grows along the eastern flanks of the Andes de along the eastern flanks of the Andes de along the eastern flanks of the Andes de la all the way from Venezuela down to la all the way from Venezuela down to la all the way from Venezuela down to Bolivia. And what this means is that at Bolivia. And what this means is that at Bolivia. And what this means is that at three times in pre-colian history, human three times in pre-colian history, human three times in pre-colian history, human beings came upon this delicate little beings came upon this delicate little beings came upon this delicate little shrub in the forest with fruits the shrub in the forest with fruits the shrub in the forest with fruits the color and the size of rubies and color and the size of rubies and color and the size of rubies and beautiful little white flowers and beautiful little white flowers and beautiful little white flowers and delicate foliage and said that's the delicate foliage and said that's the delicate foliage and said that's the one. And it was domesticated three times one. And it was domesticated three times one. And it was domesticated three times in the Montana of Colombia, in the in the Montana of Colombia, in the in the Montana of Colombia, in the jungus of La Pas and Bolivia and Peru, jungus of La Pas and Bolivia and Peru, jungus of La Pas and Bolivia and Peru, and in the northwest Amazon. And that is and in the northwest Amazon. And that is and in the northwest Amazon. And that is extremely rare in the history of plant extremely rare in the history of plant extremely rare in the history of plant domestication. domestication. domestication. And not only was it domesticated three And not only was it domesticated three And not only was it domesticated three times, everywhere it was domesticated, times, everywhere it was domesticated, times, everywhere it was domesticated, it was deemed to be the plant of all it was deemed to be the plant of all it was deemed to be the plant of all plants, the sacred plant. And that was plants, the sacred plant. And that was plants, the sacred plant. And that was its status through all of at least 8,000 its status through all of at least 8,000 its status through all of at least 8,000 years and remains its status amongst years and remains its status amongst years and remains its status amongst those who use the plant today. Today, those who use the plant today. Today, those who use the plant today. Today, you know, if you watch indigenous people you know, if you watch indigenous people you know, if you watch indigenous people using cocoa, very often they make what's using cocoa, very often they make what's using cocoa, very often they make what's called a kinta, which is an offering. called a kinta, which is an offering. called a kinta, which is an offering. They take three perfect leaves and put They take three perfect leaves and put They take three perfect leaves and put them together in a fan shape and blow on them together in a fan shape and blow on them together in a fan shape and blow on them and will whisper prayers to them. them and will whisper prayers to them. them and will whisper prayers to them. And this is very common thing to And this is very common thing to And this is very common thing to observe. observe. observe. >> Well, it's more than that, Andy. When >> Well, it's more than that, Andy. When >> Well, it's more than that, Andy. When people meet on the trail, they make they people meet on the trail, they make they people meet on the trail, they make they make a cruseta of leaves and then they make a cruseta of leaves and then they make a cruseta of leaves and then they lift it to the highest sacred mountain lift it to the highest sacred mountain lift it to the highest sacred mountain blow up. blow up. blow up. >> Wait, what is a cruseta? Just to provide >> Wait, what is a cruseta? Just to provide >> Wait, what is a cruseta? Just to provide context for people. context for people. context for people. >> A little cross of three leaves, three >> A little cross of three leaves, three >> A little cross of three leaves, three perfect leaves, and you point it to the perfect leaves, and you point it to the perfect leaves, and you point it to the mountain and then you blow the energy of mountain and then you blow the energy of mountain and then you blow the energy of the leaf to the mountain. And the the leaf to the mountain. And the the leaf to the mountain. And the metaphor is the energ leaf like in the metaphor is the energ leaf like in the metaphor is the energ leaf like in the same way a cloud condenses to bring rain same way a cloud condenses to bring rain same way a cloud condenses to bring rain and fertility to soil. So too this is and fertility to soil. So too this is and fertility to soil. So too this is creating your sort of connection to to creating your sort of connection to to creating your sort of connection to to to landscape and every single thing that to landscape and every single thing that to landscape and every single thing that happens in the Andes a field is planted, happens in the Andes a field is planted, happens in the Andes a field is planted, cocoa is sprinkled, tools are brought cocoa is sprinkled, tools are brought cocoa is sprinkled, tools are brought back in the evening, cocoa is given to back in the evening, cocoa is given to back in the evening, cocoa is given to them. Koka appears in as a symbol of the them. Koka appears in as a symbol of the them. Koka appears in as a symbol of the social contract and the social nexus of social contract and the social nexus of social contract and the social nexus of people. This is why it's so important, people. This is why it's so important, people. This is why it's so important, as the anthropologist Katherine Allen as the anthropologist Katherine Allen as the anthropologist Katherine Allen said, is that to deny people cocoa in said, is that to deny people cocoa in said, is that to deny people cocoa in the Andes is not like denying the the Andes is not like denying the the Andes is not like denying the Germans beer or the British tea or the Germans beer or the British tea or the Germans beer or the British tea or the French coffee. It's actually an act of French coffee. It's actually an act of French coffee. It's actually an act of cultural genocide because you cannot be cultural genocide because you cannot be cultural genocide because you cannot be runa. You cannot be of the Andes of runa. You cannot be of the Andes of runa. You cannot be of the Andes of Pchaamama if you do not use the leaves Pchaamama if you do not use the leaves Pchaamama if you do not use the leaves and you must use them properly. And and you must use them properly. And and you must use them properly. And nothing causes more offense than nothing causes more offense than nothing causes more offense than tourists who stuff their leaves as the tourists who stuff their leaves as the tourists who stuff their leaves as the people say like horses eating hay. And people say like horses eating hay. And people say like horses eating hay. And in the Sierra Nevada Santa Marta where in the Sierra Nevada Santa Marta where in the Sierra Nevada Santa Marta where the highest consumption of cocoa in the the highest consumption of cocoa in the the highest consumption of cocoa in the world, men are constantly chewing hyo. world, men are constantly chewing hyo. world, men are constantly chewing hyo. >> What is hyo? >> What is hyo? >> What is hyo? >> Hao is a name of cocoa in Colombia. that >> Hao is a name of cocoa in Colombia. that >> Hao is a name of cocoa in Colombia. that is ariththro novag granitensi a variety is ariththro novag granitensi a variety is ariththro novag granitensi a variety novag granitensi which is a koka of novag granitensi which is a koka of novag granitensi which is a koka of colombia and the cocoa used today by the colombia and the cocoa used today by the colombia and the cocoa used today by the mammals of the sier no Santa Marta but mammals of the sier no Santa Marta but mammals of the sier no Santa Marta but they contemplate the day to come they they contemplate the day to come they they contemplate the day to come they contemplate the day that they've lived contemplate the day that they've lived contemplate the day that they've lived you begin to chew leaves when you are of you begin to chew leaves when you are of you begin to chew leaves when you are of an age to marry and so the chewing of an age to marry and so the chewing of an age to marry and so the chewing of leaves is the expression of the essence leaves is the expression of the essence leaves is the expression of the essence of who you are as a people and that of who you are as a people and that of who you are as a people and that happens to be a culture that believes happens to be a culture that believes happens to be a culture that believes that their prayers literally maintain that their prayers literally maintain that their prayers literally maintain the cosmic balance of the world and So the cosmic balance of the world and So the cosmic balance of the world and So in all these societies, in all these societies, in all these societies, the act of chewing cocoa is an act of the act of chewing cocoa is an act of the act of chewing cocoa is an act of being alive. And to be denied the use of being alive. And to be denied the use of being alive. And to be denied the use of cocoa is to suffer a kind of existential cocoa is to suffer a kind of existential cocoa is to suffer a kind of existential eradication that is complete. Now to be eradication that is complete. Now to be eradication that is complete. Now to be fair, indigenous people throughout the fair, indigenous people throughout the fair, indigenous people throughout the Americas Americas Americas have the right to use cocoa in most have the right to use cocoa in most have the right to use cocoa in most jurisdictions. But of course, the cost jurisdictions. But of course, the cost jurisdictions. But of course, the cost of cocoa is skyrocketed with the illicit of cocoa is skyrocketed with the illicit of cocoa is skyrocketed with the illicit market. And so there are many market. And so there are many market. And so there are many communities where the tradition of using communities where the tradition of using communities where the tradition of using cocoa is being lost simply because of cocoa is being lost simply because of cocoa is being lost simply because of the price of the leaves. the price of the leaves. the price of the leaves. But again, the issue for us, I think, in But again, the issue for us, I think, in But again, the issue for us, I think, in our initiative is not just a traditional our initiative is not just a traditional our initiative is not just a traditional use of leaf, but the right of all use of leaf, but the right of all use of leaf, but the right of all peoples in all places in the world to peoples in all places in the world to peoples in all places in the world to benefit from the incredible gift that benefit from the incredible gift that benefit from the incredible gift that this plant represents. It's Latin this plant represents. It's Latin this plant represents. It's Latin America's greatest gift to the world. America's greatest gift to the world. America's greatest gift to the world. And it's one that's been denied in a way And it's one that's been denied in a way And it's one that's been denied in a way that's been incredibly unproductive. I that's been incredibly unproductive. I that's been incredibly unproductive. I guess potatoes are a pretty good gift, guess potatoes are a pretty good gift, guess potatoes are a pretty good gift, too, right? So, let me come back. I too, right? So, let me come back. I too, right? So, let me come back. I promised to do a call back to the promised to do a call back to the promised to do a call back to the question that I had bookmarked. I mean question that I had bookmarked. I mean question that I had bookmarked. I mean doing homework for this in conversation doing homework for this in conversation doing homework for this in conversation with you guys also lots of text messages with you guys also lots of text messages with you guys also lots of text messages and so on. I mean it seems like there and so on. I mean it seems like there and so on. I mean it seems like there are many reasons that if one could wave are many reasons that if one could wave are many reasons that if one could wave a magic wand to create elicit trade of a magic wand to create elicit trade of a magic wand to create elicit trade of cocoa it would be a good idea. You would cocoa it would be a good idea. You would cocoa it would be a good idea. You would have dramatic impact on indigenous land have dramatic impact on indigenous land have dramatic impact on indigenous land rights. You would curtail deforestation rights. You would curtail deforestation rights. You would curtail deforestation because things wouldn't be pushed to the because things wouldn't be pushed to the because things wouldn't be pushed to the outer edges where they can be better outer edges where they can be better outer edges where they can be better hidden. certainly the sustenance and hidden. certainly the sustenance and hidden. certainly the sustenance and viability of these communities who are viability of these communities who are viability of these communities who are already operating farms, not to mention already operating farms, not to mention already operating farms, not to mention the potential global impact the potential global impact the potential global impact if this were to be more widely if this were to be more widely if this were to be more widely available, certainly pending or parallel available, certainly pending or parallel available, certainly pending or parallel with lots more research, right? So, with lots more research, right? So, with lots more research, right? So, there's a lot of good that could come of there's a lot of good that could come of there's a lot of good that could come of it. Could these farms be converted to it. Could these farms be converted to it. Could these farms be converted to legal trade without these farmers having legal trade without these farmers having legal trade without these farmers having a bullseye painted on their head by a bullseye painted on their head by a bullseye painted on their head by cartel who are dependent on them for cartel who are dependent on them for cartel who are dependent on them for producing their product? producing their product? producing their product? >> It's not as if the cartels are going to >> It's not as if the cartels are going to >> It's not as if the cartels are going to roll over and say, "Oh, go great. Sell roll over and say, "Oh, go great. Sell roll over and say, "Oh, go great. Sell your tea to Andy Wild Inc." On the other your tea to Andy Wild Inc." On the other your tea to Andy Wild Inc." On the other hand, the point is that the cartels are hand, the point is that the cartels are hand, the point is that the cartels are already out of control in Colombia and already out of control in Colombia and already out of control in Colombia and doing what whatever they want anyway and doing what whatever they want anyway and doing what whatever they want anyway and they will continue to grow cocoa as they they will continue to grow cocoa as they they will continue to grow cocoa as they want to grow cocoa and continue to want to grow cocoa and continue to want to grow cocoa and continue to produce enormous quantities of elicit produce enormous quantities of elicit produce enormous quantities of elicit cocaine. Whether or not individuals will cocaine. Whether or not individuals will cocaine. Whether or not individuals will be free to grow cocoa with impunity. be free to grow cocoa with impunity. be free to grow cocoa with impunity. Obviously, there's going to be conflict. Obviously, there's going to be conflict. Obviously, there's going to be conflict. If the state has an national interest in If the state has an national interest in If the state has an national interest in the cultivation, illicit cultivation of the cultivation, illicit cultivation of the cultivation, illicit cultivation of cocoa, they'll have an interest in cocoa, they'll have an interest in cocoa, they'll have an interest in protecting those who are growing the protecting those who are growing the protecting those who are growing the cocoa. It's not going to be some kind of cocoa. It's not going to be some kind of cocoa. It's not going to be some kind of smooth transition. But the point is that smooth transition. But the point is that smooth transition. But the point is that the situation in Colombia, for example, the situation in Colombia, for example, the situation in Colombia, for example, is already completely chaotic with the is already completely chaotic with the is already completely chaotic with the production having skyrocketed since the production having skyrocketed since the production having skyrocketed since the peace agreement and parts of the country peace agreement and parts of the country peace agreement and parts of the country now being inaccessible. And that's now being inaccessible. And that's now being inaccessible. And that's really a failure of leadership by the really a failure of leadership by the really a failure of leadership by the federal state. But I don't think that's federal state. But I don't think that's federal state. But I don't think that's a reason not to move forward with a reason not to move forward with a reason not to move forward with creating illicit product for the farm creating illicit product for the farm creating illicit product for the farm families who you know have been waiting families who you know have been waiting families who you know have been waiting for this. for this. for this. >> Andy, maybe you could speak to this next >> Andy, maybe you could speak to this next >> Andy, maybe you could speak to this next just to rotate here. What is the wedge just to rotate here. What is the wedge just to rotate here. What is the wedge in the door, right? Because this would in the door, right? Because this would in the door, right? Because this would be a big long-term undertaking, right, be a big long-term undertaking, right, be a big long-term undertaking, right, to rehabilitate KOKA. So what are sort to rehabilitate KOKA. So what are sort to rehabilitate KOKA. So what are sort of tangible next steps you think would of tangible next steps you think would of tangible next steps you think would move the needle in a positive direction? move the needle in a positive direction? move the needle in a positive direction? Is it funding research? Is it pilot Is it funding research? Is it pilot Is it funding research? Is it pilot programs of some type for legal programs of some type for legal programs of some type for legal products? What do you think? products? What do you think? products? What do you think? >> I think it's got to be multironged. One >> I think it's got to be multironged. One >> I think it's got to be multironged. One is creating consumer demand for it. is creating consumer demand for it. is creating consumer demand for it. >> Creating a market in North America for >> Creating a market in North America for >> Creating a market in North America for cocoa. If consumers want it, that will cocoa. If consumers want it, that will cocoa. If consumers want it, that will move the needle quite a bit. Secondly, move the needle quite a bit. Secondly, move the needle quite a bit. Secondly, there have to be FDA recognized approved there have to be FDA recognized approved there have to be FDA recognized approved uses of it which there now are not and uses of it which there now are not and uses of it which there now are not and that has to be demonstrated has to be that has to be demonstrated has to be that has to be demonstrated has to be supported by research. Some obvious ones supported by research. Some obvious ones supported by research. Some obvious ones are for the treatment of GI disorders are for the treatment of GI disorders are for the treatment of GI disorders for treatment of substance abuse for treatment of substance abuse for treatment of substance abuse disorders. disorders. disorders. I think possibly for treatment of ADHD I think possibly for treatment of ADHD I think possibly for treatment of ADHD for example with a much safer stimulant. for example with a much safer stimulant. for example with a much safer stimulant. I think the metabolic indications that I think the metabolic indications that I think the metabolic indications that there's great potential there that needs there's great potential there that needs there's great potential there that needs some research to demonstrate that. But some research to demonstrate that. But some research to demonstrate that. But if this shows potential for preventing if this shows potential for preventing if this shows potential for preventing or treating type 2 diabetes, you know, or treating type 2 diabetes, you know, or treating type 2 diabetes, you know, that would be enormous and I think we that would be enormous and I think we that would be enormous and I think we can make a list of these things. So I can make a list of these things. So I can make a list of these things. So I think it's we've got to work on all think it's we've got to work on all think it's we've got to work on all these fronts, but to me the first thing these fronts, but to me the first thing these fronts, but to me the first thing is making people aware of what cocoa is. is making people aware of what cocoa is. is making people aware of what cocoa is. You know, most people don't know You know, most people don't know You know, most people don't know anything about it, and if they do, they anything about it, and if they do, they anything about it, and if they do, they just think of it as the source of just think of it as the source of just think of it as the source of cocaine. So that's where we're starting. cocaine. So that's where we're starting. cocaine. So that's where we're starting. There was a big effort and a very There was a big effort and a very There was a big effort and a very hopeful effort to get the UN to reschedu hopeful effort to get the UN to reschedu hopeful effort to get the UN to reschedu Koka. And this was done at the request Koka. And this was done at the request Koka. And this was done at the request of both the Bolivian and the Colombian of both the Bolivian and the Colombian of both the Bolivian and the Colombian governments. And the hope as I mentioned governments. And the hope as I mentioned governments. And the hope as I mentioned was that KOKA would be taken out of was that KOKA would be taken out of was that KOKA would be taken out of schedule. Andy mentioned as KO is in schedule. Andy mentioned as KO is in schedule. Andy mentioned as KO is in schedule two in the United States, but schedule two in the United States, but schedule two in the United States, but by the international by the international by the international statutes of the UN is still schedule statutes of the UN is still schedule statutes of the UN is still schedule one. And the goal was to try to get it one. And the goal was to try to get it one. And the goal was to try to get it completely descheduled as a benign plant completely descheduled as a benign plant completely descheduled as a benign plant that it is. The group that met in Vienna that it is. The group that met in Vienna that it is. The group that met in Vienna decided against that to maintain the decided against that to maintain the decided against that to maintain the status quo to the disappointment of all status quo to the disappointment of all status quo to the disappointment of all advocates. And the rationale was a advocates. And the rationale was a advocates. And the rationale was a little strange. The reason that cocoa little strange. The reason that cocoa little strange. The reason that cocoa remained the equivalent of fentanyl is remained the equivalent of fentanyl is remained the equivalent of fentanyl is that cocaine could be extracted from that cocaine could be extracted from that cocaine could be extracted from cocoa. Well, everybody knows that. and cocoa. Well, everybody knows that. and cocoa. Well, everybody knows that. and the fact that nothing stopped the the fact that nothing stopped the the fact that nothing stopped the cartels extracting cocaine by the ton. cartels extracting cocaine by the ton. cartels extracting cocaine by the ton. So it made no sense that logic but So it made no sense that logic but So it made no sense that logic but because of that cocoa remains scheduled. because of that cocoa remains scheduled. because of that cocoa remains scheduled. That was a big disappointment but that That was a big disappointment but that That was a big disappointment but that effort continues. But we are seeing effort continues. But we are seeing effort continues. But we are seeing movement in the US with you know there's movement in the US with you know there's movement in the US with you know there's been movement with cannabis there's been been movement with cannabis there's been been movement with cannabis there's been movement with psychedelics. movement with psychedelics. movement with psychedelics. A lot of this has been I think promoted A lot of this has been I think promoted A lot of this has been I think promoted by veterans demanding access to these by veterans demanding access to these by veterans demanding access to these treatments for you know mental health treatments for you know mental health treatments for you know mental health conditions but things finally have conditions but things finally have conditions but things finally have loosened up and maybe as part of that loosened up and maybe as part of that loosened up and maybe as part of that momentum we can introduce you know momentum we can introduce you know momentum we can introduce you know discussions of koka and getting some discussions of koka and getting some discussions of koka and getting some movement there as well. Yeah, I think movement there as well. Yeah, I think movement there as well. Yeah, I think it's possible. My sort of pragmatic hat it's possible. My sort of pragmatic hat it's possible. My sort of pragmatic hat is always wondering, well, if we have is always wondering, well, if we have is always wondering, well, if we have many, many, many people listening to many, many, many people listening to many, many, many people listening to this podcast, they're probably policy this podcast, they're probably policy this podcast, they're probably policy makers. There are individuals certainly makers. There are individuals certainly makers. There are individuals certainly who say to themselves, hey, I would love who say to themselves, hey, I would love who say to themselves, hey, I would love to cut down on my coffee. Maybe give to cut down on my coffee. Maybe give to cut down on my coffee. Maybe give cocoa a spin. Sounds mild. cocoa a spin. Sounds mild. cocoa a spin. Sounds mild. Maybe doing a few days of that would be Maybe doing a few days of that would be Maybe doing a few days of that would be wonderful. But I don't know what then wonderful. But I don't know what then wonderful. But I don't know what then their next step is or how the demand or their next step is or how the demand or their next step is or how the demand or interest is harnessed in a way that interest is harnessed in a way that interest is harnessed in a way that leads to broader change. Do you have any leads to broader change. Do you have any leads to broader change. Do you have any thoughts on getting specific thoughts on getting specific thoughts on getting specific stakeholders to take any next steps? stakeholders to take any next steps? stakeholders to take any next steps? Because chances are you have people from Because chances are you have people from Because chances are you have people from every possible walk listening to this. every possible walk listening to this. every possible walk listening to this. You likely have scientists who are You likely have scientists who are You likely have scientists who are perhaps psychedelic adjacent. Maybe they perhaps psychedelic adjacent. Maybe they perhaps psychedelic adjacent. Maybe they are stimulant adjacent who are are stimulant adjacent who are are stimulant adjacent who are interested. Of course, it's a interested. Of course, it's a interested. Of course, it's a fundraising question, but that's fundraising question, but that's fundraising question, but that's solvable. I think I would be willing to solvable. I think I would be willing to solvable. I think I would be willing to help fund some research. What else can help fund some research. What else can help fund some research. What else can be done? Well, to the scientists, I be done? Well, to the scientists, I be done? Well, to the scientists, I would say, you know, this is an would say, you know, this is an would say, you know, this is an incredibly interesting plant with a incredibly interesting plant with a incredibly interesting plant with a fascinating history, cultural relevance, fascinating history, cultural relevance, fascinating history, cultural relevance, chemistry, pharmacological effects, and chemistry, pharmacological effects, and chemistry, pharmacological effects, and it hasn't been studied. You know, it's it hasn't been studied. You know, it's it hasn't been studied. You know, it's just waiting there. This would be a rich just waiting there. This would be a rich just waiting there. This would be a rich subject for investigation. So I would subject for investigation. So I would subject for investigation. So I would think that scientists who are curious think that scientists who are curious think that scientists who are curious about things of this sort, medicinal about things of this sort, medicinal about things of this sort, medicinal plants, medical botany, natural products plants, medical botany, natural products plants, medical botany, natural products would want to take a look at this. would want to take a look at this. would want to take a look at this. >> I'll just say because it's schedule two >> I'll just say because it's schedule two >> I'll just say because it's schedule two versus schedule one, it makes the versus schedule one, it makes the versus schedule one, it makes the presumably the process for researching presumably the process for researching presumably the process for researching it much easier and much less expensive. it much easier and much less expensive. it much easier and much less expensive. But I would say Tim to the entrepreneurs But I would say Tim to the entrepreneurs But I would say Tim to the entrepreneurs who might be listening and that the who might be listening and that the who might be listening and that the person who manages to crack this nut has person who manages to crack this nut has person who manages to crack this nut has the potential to make enormous wealth the potential to make enormous wealth the potential to make enormous wealth because I think the qualities of coco because I think the qualities of coco because I think the qualities of coco are such that they could very easily are such that they could very easily are such that they could very easily compete on the level that coffee is compete on the level that coffee is compete on the level that coffee is presented to the world. It's just a much presented to the world. It's just a much presented to the world. It's just a much much better natural stimulant, a more much better natural stimulant, a more much better natural stimulant, a more effective one, a more benign one, a more effective one, a more benign one, a more effective one, a more benign one, a more useful one. So when the dam breaks, it useful one. So when the dam breaks, it useful one. So when the dam breaks, it will be enormous. And again, you have will be enormous. And again, you have will be enormous. And again, you have issues of intellectual property, but issues of intellectual property, but issues of intellectual property, but again, this is a plant that's been used again, this is a plant that's been used again, this is a plant that's been used for 8,000 years by everybody. It's very for 8,000 years by everybody. It's very for 8,000 years by everybody. It's very difficult for anyone to claim difficult for anyone to claim difficult for anyone to claim the intellectual rights to this plant. the intellectual rights to this plant. the intellectual rights to this plant. And as some good friends of mine say, in And as some good friends of mine say, in And as some good friends of mine say, in this case, the plant itself has agency, this case, the plant itself has agency, this case, the plant itself has agency, you know, and the plant wants to be you know, and the plant wants to be you know, and the plant wants to be known to people. known to people. known to people. >> And the other element of this is >> And the other element of this is >> And the other element of this is storytelling. I mean, Andy and I are in storytelling. I mean, Andy and I are in storytelling. I mean, Andy and I are in in midst of raising funds to make a film in midst of raising funds to make a film in midst of raising funds to make a film that will celebrate in a positive sense that will celebrate in a positive sense that will celebrate in a positive sense Koka and the whole tradition. And it's a Koka and the whole tradition. And it's a Koka and the whole tradition. And it's a story of social justice. It's a story of story of social justice. It's a story of story of social justice. It's a story of spiritual illumination. It's a story of spiritual illumination. It's a story of spiritual illumination. It's a story of Andian prehistory. Andian prehistory. Andian prehistory. Incredible story of cultural Incredible story of cultural Incredible story of cultural celebration, ethnographic richness. And celebration, ethnographic richness. And celebration, ethnographic richness. And I think if people embraced the story, I think if people embraced the story, I think if people embraced the story, they would be deeply moved. And at the they would be deeply moved. And at the they would be deeply moved. And at the same time, it's also a story of same time, it's also a story of same time, it's also a story of incredible violation of human rights. incredible violation of human rights. incredible violation of human rights. And the egregious way by which this And the egregious way by which this And the egregious way by which this plant has been demonized speaks to plant has been demonized speaks to plant has been demonized speaks to larger issues that we face as we try to larger issues that we face as we try to larger issues that we face as we try to find a way to live on this planet. And find a way to live on this planet. And find a way to live on this planet. And so I think it the story is so rich. And so I think it the story is so rich. And so I think it the story is so rich. And Wade and I have been involved in an Wade and I have been involved in an Wade and I have been involved in an effort to rehabilitate Koker for some effort to rehabilitate Koker for some effort to rehabilitate Koker for some time. In the 1970s, I started a time. In the 1970s, I started a time. In the 1970s, I started a notfor-profit foundation called the notfor-profit foundation called the notfor-profit foundation called the Beneficial Plant Research Association, Beneficial Plant Research Association, Beneficial Plant Research Association, whose aim was to whose aim was to whose aim was to conduct research, make people aware of conduct research, make people aware of conduct research, make people aware of lesserk known medicinal plants, and the lesserk known medicinal plants, and the lesserk known medicinal plants, and the main one we focused on was Koka. We were main one we focused on was Koka. We were main one we focused on was Koka. We were way ahead of our time, but we had way ahead of our time, but we had way ahead of our time, but we had wonderful people involved in this wonderful people involved in this wonderful people involved in this effort. And the group lapsed, but I effort. And the group lapsed, but I effort. And the group lapsed, but I revived it a couple of years ago, and revived it a couple of years ago, and revived it a couple of years ago, and it's now very robust. We have some it's now very robust. We have some it's now very robust. We have some really great scientists behind it and I really great scientists behind it and I really great scientists behind it and I would urge listeners to check our would urge listeners to check our would urge listeners to check our website which is bp.org website which is bp.org website which is bp.org and read about the Koka project and what and read about the Koka project and what and read about the Koka project and what we are involved with. we are involved with. we are involved with. >> bp.org. >> bp.org. >> bp.org. Is that right? Is that right? Is that right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> If people were interested in potentially >> If people were interested in potentially >> If people were interested in potentially supporting the film, is that where they supporting the film, is that where they supporting the film, is that where they should go to contact folks? should go to contact folks? should go to contact folks? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Okay. All right. That's one that people >> Okay. All right. That's one that people >> Okay. All right. That's one that people can latch on to. Now Wade, you were can latch on to. Now Wade, you were can latch on to. Now Wade, you were delivering a a summons, a call to action delivering a a summons, a call to action delivering a a summons, a call to action to entrepreneurs. As luck would have it, to entrepreneurs. As luck would have it, to entrepreneurs. As luck would have it, we may have an entrepreneur in our midst we may have an entrepreneur in our midst we may have an entrepreneur in our midst known for True Food Kitchen, not only known for True Food Kitchen, not only known for True Food Kitchen, not only Machakari. So Andrew, if you were going Machakari. So Andrew, if you were going Machakari. So Andrew, if you were going to market and you're like, you know to market and you're like, you know to market and you're like, you know what, let me pave the way. I'm not what, let me pave the way. I'm not what, let me pave the way. I'm not saying that's your plan, but if you saying that's your plan, but if you saying that's your plan, but if you decided, I want to be the first to decided, I want to be the first to decided, I want to be the first to introduce introduce introduce >> Koka, right? Kokari, you could come up >> Koka, right? Kokari, you could come up >> Koka, right? Kokari, you could come up with, I'm sure that you could do a line with, I'm sure that you could do a line with, I'm sure that you could do a line extension. Fantastic matcha for people extension. Fantastic matcha for people extension. Fantastic matcha for people who are interested. who are interested. who are interested. >> By the way, matcha and cocoa are both >> By the way, matcha and cocoa are both >> By the way, matcha and cocoa are both green powders. So, I'm an advocate of green powders. So, I'm an advocate of green powders. So, I'm an advocate of green powders. And [laughter] you know, green powders. And [laughter] you know, green powders. And [laughter] you know, matcha, this is another one that I got matcha, this is another one that I got matcha, this is another one that I got interested in way before its time. And I interested in way before its time. And I interested in way before its time. And I tried for a number of years to introduce tried for a number of years to introduce tried for a number of years to introduce it here unsuccessfully. And now it has it here unsuccessfully. And now it has it here unsuccessfully. And now it has become I mean it is just unbelievable. become I mean it is just unbelievable. become I mean it is just unbelievable. The worldwide demand for it has The worldwide demand for it has The worldwide demand for it has completely stressed Japan's capacity to completely stressed Japan's capacity to completely stressed Japan's capacity to produce it. produce it. produce it. >> Yeah. So that took maybe 15 20 years for >> Yeah. So that took maybe 15 20 years for >> Yeah. So that took maybe 15 20 years for me to get that going. Coke is probably me to get that going. Coke is probably me to get that going. Coke is probably going to take a little longer, but I am going to take a little longer, but I am going to take a little longer, but I am determined. determined. determined. >> What would be the levers or perhaps >> What would be the levers or perhaps >> What would be the levers or perhaps dominoes is a better metaphor that you dominoes is a better metaphor that you dominoes is a better metaphor that you would want to tip over on the path to would want to tip over on the path to would want to tip over on the path to introducing cocoa as a commercial introducing cocoa as a commercial introducing cocoa as a commercial product. Even just one good study product. Even just one good study product. Even just one good study clearly demonstrating one of these clearly demonstrating one of these clearly demonstrating one of these effects that we've talked about effects that we've talked about effects that we've talked about >> helping people get off much more >> helping people get off much more >> helping people get off much more dangerous stimulants or regulating dangerous stimulants or regulating dangerous stimulants or regulating carbohydrate metabolism, helping to carbohydrate metabolism, helping to carbohydrate metabolism, helping to prevent type 2 diabetes. prevent type 2 diabetes. prevent type 2 diabetes. Wade, what do you think? Wade, what do you think? Wade, what do you think? >> Well, I think that focusing on what Andy >> Well, I think that focusing on what Andy >> Well, I think that focusing on what Andy and I know from our personal experiences and I know from our personal experiences and I know from our personal experiences is how fantastic Coke is, how it works. is how fantastic Coke is, how it works. is how fantastic Coke is, how it works. I think all of us Tim as conscious human I think all of us Tim as conscious human I think all of us Tim as conscious human beings suffer from these kind of beings suffer from these kind of beings suffer from these kind of afflictions that the Buddhists talk afflictions that the Buddhists talk afflictions that the Buddhists talk about you know the monkey mind the sort about you know the monkey mind the sort about you know the monkey mind the sort of little moments of neurosis or even of little moments of neurosis or even of little moments of neurosis or even depression. depression. depression. >> Oh, you're lucky moments. Thank God I >> Oh, you're lucky moments. Thank God I >> Oh, you're lucky moments. Thank God I would pay to have moments. would pay to have moments. would pay to have moments. >> Yeah, exactly. And I'll say something >> Yeah, exactly. And I'll say something >> Yeah, exactly. And I'll say something very personal. I mean I have two very personal. I mean I have two very personal. I mean I have two daughters and both of them for different daughters and both of them for different daughters and both of them for different reasons have been on some of these reasons have been on some of these reasons have been on some of these serotonin uptake inhibitors. You know, serotonin uptake inhibitors. You know, serotonin uptake inhibitors. You know, Prozac and Never Rolin. But you know, I Prozac and Never Rolin. But you know, I Prozac and Never Rolin. But you know, I watched that and what I experienced in watched that and what I experienced in watched that and what I experienced in my life, which is a very productive my life, which is a very productive my life, which is a very productive life, is that I function perfectly well life, is that I function perfectly well life, is that I function perfectly well without cocoa. Just like old Schulties without cocoa. Just like old Schulties without cocoa. Just like old Schulties used to say, he chewed cocoa every day used to say, he chewed cocoa every day used to say, he chewed cocoa every day in the Amazon. He didn't chew it in in the Amazon. He didn't chew it in in the Amazon. He didn't chew it in Boston. I find that if I run out of Boston. I find that if I run out of Boston. I find that if I run out of cocoa, my life goes on. It's just not as cocoa, my life goes on. It's just not as cocoa, my life goes on. It's just not as nice a life and it's not as productive a nice a life and it's not as productive a nice a life and it's not as productive a life. But what I find is that I'm as life. But what I find is that I'm as life. But what I find is that I'm as susceptible as anybody to mood swings, susceptible as anybody to mood swings, susceptible as anybody to mood swings, to existential despair, whatever we call to existential despair, whatever we call to existential despair, whatever we call it. I think this is part of the human it. I think this is part of the human it. I think this is part of the human condition. In the same way, the death is condition. In the same way, the death is condition. In the same way, the death is the price we pay for the glory of being the price we pay for the glory of being the price we pay for the glory of being alive. I think some of these little alive. I think some of these little alive. I think some of these little mental fuckups are what we pay for for mental fuckups are what we pay for for mental fuckups are what we pay for for the price of being conscious. the price of being conscious. the price of being conscious. >> The tax, >> The tax, >> The tax, >> it's like a tax, >> it's like a tax, >> it's like a tax, >> ticket of entry. Yeah. And that's the >> ticket of entry. Yeah. And that's the >> ticket of entry. Yeah. And that's the whole thing about cocoa is that it takes whole thing about cocoa is that it takes whole thing about cocoa is that it takes care of that without having any sense care of that without having any sense care of that without having any sense that you've been drugged or even that you've been drugged or even that you've been drugged or even stimulated. You just find that stuff stimulated. You just find that stuff stimulated. You just find that stuff flitting your way and it just makes for flitting your way and it just makes for flitting your way and it just makes for a more productive life. I've written 24 a more productive life. I've written 24 a more productive life. I've written 24 books, Tim, and I made 50 films and books, Tim, and I made 50 films and books, Tim, and I made 50 films and people, "Oh, he's so productive." And I people, "Oh, he's so productive." And I people, "Oh, he's so productive." And I just smile like the sher cat. Of course just smile like the sher cat. Of course just smile like the sher cat. Of course I am. And Andy knows exactly how and I am. And Andy knows exactly how and I am. And Andy knows exactly how and why. I think probably Andy and I both why. I think probably Andy and I both why. I think probably Andy and I both share a certain frustration that you share a certain frustration that you share a certain frustration that you can't talk people into this. You know, can't talk people into this. You know, can't talk people into this. You know, it's sort of show don't tell and it's so it's sort of show don't tell and it's so it's sort of show don't tell and it's so subtle. I remember the first time I ever subtle. I remember the first time I ever subtle. I remember the first time I ever really got behind coke. It was in the really got behind coke. It was in the really got behind coke. It was in the PMO above Sandoi in Colombia and Tim and PMO above Sandoi in Colombia and Tim and PMO above Sandoi in Colombia and Tim and I had gotten a bunch of leaves in Sylvia I had gotten a bunch of leaves in Sylvia I had gotten a bunch of leaves in Sylvia and Tim was never one to rush a and Tim was never one to rush a and Tim was never one to rush a situation that was itself inherently situation that was itself inherently situation that was itself inherently pleasant. And so we just laid back in pleasant. And so we just laid back in pleasant. And so we just laid back in the sun and I'd been with the mamos. I the sun and I'd been with the mamos. I the sun and I'd been with the mamos. I mean, but I hadn't really discovered the mean, but I hadn't really discovered the mean, but I hadn't really discovered the plant. I mean, Andy will tell you, you plant. I mean, Andy will tell you, you plant. I mean, Andy will tell you, you create a learned experience with these create a learned experience with these create a learned experience with these plants. And suddenly I just felt like I plants. And suddenly I just felt like I plants. And suddenly I just felt like I was just where I wanted to be. And was just where I wanted to be. And was just where I wanted to be. And that's what Andy says when Andy, and that's what Andy says when Andy, and that's what Andy says when Andy, and I've quoted him many times, first went I've quoted him many times, first went I've quoted him many times, first went to the Cubo in it was 73, wasn't it to the Cubo in it was 73, wasn't it to the Cubo in it was 73, wasn't it Andy? Andy? Andy? >> Yeah. And there's a beautiful passage in >> Yeah. And there's a beautiful passage in >> Yeah. And there's a beautiful passage in one of Andy's essays where he exposed to one of Andy's essays where he exposed to one of Andy's essays where he exposed to Mambbe for the first time. Mambbe by the Mambbe for the first time. Mambbe by the Mambbe for the first time. Mambbe by the way for the audience is just an way for the audience is just an way for the audience is just an Amazonian form of cocoa. It becomes a Amazonian form of cocoa. It becomes a Amazonian form of cocoa. It becomes a green powder like matcha and you don't green powder like matcha and you don't green powder like matcha and you don't use it with an ad mixture. The ad use it with an ad mixture. The ad use it with an ad mixture. The ad mixture is the ash is placed in the mixture is the ash is placed in the mixture is the ash is placed in the preparation. So you end up swallowing preparation. So you end up swallowing preparation. So you end up swallowing the whole the whole thing and you absorb the whole the whole thing and you absorb the whole the whole thing and you absorb the nutrients and so on. But anyway, so the nutrients and so on. But anyway, so the nutrients and so on. But anyway, so Andy had been exposed to Momb. And the Andy had been exposed to Momb. And the Andy had been exposed to Momb. And the next day with the men, they gather next day with the men, they gather next day with the men, they gather around this calabash and he walks away around this calabash and he walks away around this calabash and he walks away as I walked away in the Northwest Amazon as I walked away in the Northwest Amazon as I walked away in the Northwest Amazon with a spring to your feet, oblivious to with a spring to your feet, oblivious to with a spring to your feet, oblivious to the humidity, as Andy said in that the humidity, as Andy said in that the humidity, as Andy said in that wonderful passage, swinging my machete wonderful passage, swinging my machete wonderful passage, swinging my machete and feeling that I was just where I and feeling that I was just where I and feeling that I was just where I wanted to be. And I think that's a wanted to be. And I think that's a wanted to be. And I think that's a really great summation of the subjective really great summation of the subjective really great summation of the subjective effects of Koko. And can I say I effects of Koko. And can I say I effects of Koko. And can I say I attribute at least some of my well-being attribute at least some of my well-being attribute at least some of my well-being to regular use of cocoa. to regular use of cocoa. to regular use of cocoa. >> By the [clears throat] way, today is my >> By the [clears throat] way, today is my >> By the [clears throat] way, today is my birthday and I am 84. birthday and I am 84. birthday and I am 84. >> Oh, happy birthday. >> Oh, happy birthday. >> Oh, happy birthday. >> And I feel pretty good. >> And I feel pretty good. >> And I feel pretty good. >> Yeah, you look great. >> Yeah, you look great. >> Yeah, you look great. >> Oh, yeah. People always comment on how >> Oh, yeah. People always comment on how >> Oh, yeah. People always comment on how good I look and so forth and I I have to good I look and so forth and I I have to good I look and so forth and I I have to say cocoa has contributed to that. say cocoa has contributed to that. say cocoa has contributed to that. All right, [clears throat] I have many All right, [clears throat] I have many All right, [clears throat] I have many more questions, but I'll I'll try to more questions, but I'll I'll try to more questions, but I'll I'll try to contain I could probably use some more contain I could probably use some more contain I could probably use some more cocoa to get this ADHD, OCD under cocoa to get this ADHD, OCD under cocoa to get this ADHD, OCD under control, but are there for people who control, but are there for people who control, but are there for people who have heard and maybe latched on to have heard and maybe latched on to have heard and maybe latched on to something you said earlier, which is one something you said earlier, which is one something you said earlier, which is one good scientific study. Yeah, good scientific study. Yeah, good scientific study. Yeah, >> I'm a firm believer in this because I've >> I'm a firm believer in this because I've >> I'm a firm believer in this because I've been very active on trying to establish been very active on trying to establish been very active on trying to establish firsts pilots that might be a proof of firsts pilots that might be a proof of firsts pilots that might be a proof of concept that then catalyze more research concept that then catalyze more research concept that then catalyze more research etc. Are there any particular etc. Are there any particular etc. Are there any particular researchers who people could look to researchers who people could look to researchers who people could look to fund? fund? fund? >> Let me mention one who is on our board >> Let me mention one who is on our board >> Let me mention one who is on our board of beneficial plants and that's Chris of beneficial plants and that's Chris of beneficial plants and that's Chris Mccertie who is a medicinal Mccertie who is a medicinal Mccertie who is a medicinal pharmacologist at the University of pharmacologist at the University of pharmacologist at the University of Florida. Florida. Florida. >> How do you spell the last name? MC >> How do you spell the last name? MC >> How do you spell the last name? MC capital curd d y Chris mccertie he's capital curd d y Chris mccertie he's capital curd d y Chris mccertie he's University of Florida University of Florida University of Florida >> and he is the main person who's >> and he is the main person who's >> and he is the main person who's researched researched researched >> and has a lot of federal support for his >> and has a lot of federal support for his >> and has a lot of federal support for his studies of studies of studies of >> kraton and I met with him and got him >> kraton and I met with him and got him >> kraton and I met with him and got him interested in koka interested in koka interested in koka >> and he was determined to you know do a >> and he was determined to you know do a >> and he was determined to you know do a study of this now I will just tell you study of this now I will just tell you study of this now I will just tell you it has been a very torturous route for it has been a very torturous route for it has been a very torturous route for him to get leaves legally to study but him to get leaves legally to study but him to get leaves legally to study but he finally just this week got his supply he finally just this week got his supply he finally just this week got his supply I You would not believe the red tape. I You would not believe the red tape. I You would not believe the red tape. >> Why is it so hard? >> Why is it so hard? >> Why is it so hard? >> Because this is the problem with Koka, >> Because this is the problem with Koka, >> Because this is the problem with Koka, you know, that it's just all these you know, that it's just all these you know, that it's just all these regulations and fear about it and regulations and fear about it and regulations and fear about it and confusion with cocaine. Anyway, he's a confusion with cocaine. Anyway, he's a confusion with cocaine. Anyway, he's a very interesting person to talk to, but very interesting person to talk to, but very interesting person to talk to, but he is set up. He's just about to get he is set up. He's just about to get he is set up. He's just about to get going and he's doing animal research going and he's doing animal research going and he's doing animal research first, but is using whole cocoa trying first, but is using whole cocoa trying first, but is using whole cocoa trying to disentangle the effects of the to disentangle the effects of the to disentangle the effects of the different alkyoids. But one of his different alkyoids. But one of his different alkyoids. But one of his interests is looking at this possibility interests is looking at this possibility interests is looking at this possibility of of regulating carbohydrate of of regulating carbohydrate of of regulating carbohydrate metabolism. metabolism. metabolism. >> So he's the main person at the moment >> So he's the main person at the moment >> So he's the main person at the moment that I know who is doing research in that I know who is doing research in that I know who is doing research in this area and he's very good. this area and he's very good. this area and he's very good. >> Yeah. I was wondering I looked him up >> Yeah. I was wondering I looked him up >> Yeah. I was wondering I looked him up while we were talking. while we were talking. while we were talking. >> Might not be a fit, might be a fit, but >> Might not be a fit, might be a fit, but >> Might not be a fit, might be a fit, but Dr. Peter Hris has done some interesting Dr. Peter Hris has done some interesting Dr. Peter Hris has done some interesting work perhaps best known for looking at work perhaps best known for looking at work perhaps best known for looking at the potential use of psilocybin combined the potential use of psilocybin combined the potential use of psilocybin combined with psychotherapy as a promising with psychotherapy as a promising with psychotherapy as a promising treatment for cocaine use disorder. So treatment for cocaine use disorder. So treatment for cocaine use disorder. So there might be room for looking at, as there might be room for looking at, as there might be room for looking at, as strange as it might sound to people, strange as it might sound to people, strange as it might sound to people, cocoa for cocaine use disorder. That cocoa for cocaine use disorder. That cocoa for cocaine use disorder. That might be too hard to sell. might be too hard to sell. might be too hard to sell. >> I proposed that in an article that I >> I proposed that in an article that I >> I proposed that in an article that I wrote long ago saying that this would be wrote long ago saying that this would be wrote long ago saying that this would be one of the possible uses to wean people one of the possible uses to wean people one of the possible uses to wean people off of cocaine onto cocoa. That would be off of cocaine onto cocoa. That would be off of cocaine onto cocoa. That would be a big step up. I had not even thought a big step up. I had not even thought a big step up. I had not even thought about and I feel foolish realized that about and I feel foolish realized that about and I feel foolish realized that even if it's schedule two if you are say even if it's schedule two if you are say even if it's schedule two if you are say using methylenadate aka rolin or using methylenadate aka rolin or using methylenadate aka rolin or something else you just synthesize the something else you just synthesize the something else you just synthesize the damn stuff whereas if you have to get damn stuff whereas if you have to get damn stuff whereas if you have to get actual organic cocoa leaves that adds a actual organic cocoa leaves that adds a actual organic cocoa leaves that adds a whole different layer of headache in whole different layer of headache in whole different layer of headache in terms of procuring it because now you're terms of procuring it because now you're terms of procuring it because now you're dealing with importation and this that dealing with importation and this that dealing with importation and this that and the other thing yeah I hadn't even and the other thing yeah I hadn't even and the other thing yeah I hadn't even thought about that wrinkle there's thought about that wrinkle there's thought about that wrinkle there's always a wrinkle always a wrinkle always a wrinkle >> right Okay, got it. And for someone like >> right Okay, got it. And for someone like >> right Okay, got it. And for someone like Christopher McCertie, how much do Christopher McCertie, how much do Christopher McCertie, how much do research studies like this cost? Do you research studies like this cost? Do you research studies like this cost? Do you have any ballpark for folks? In my have any ballpark for folks? In my have any ballpark for folks? In my experience, it's like, okay, the number experience, it's like, okay, the number experience, it's like, okay, the number of subjects determines a lot of the of subjects determines a lot of the of subjects determines a lot of the cost. So, if you want to power the cost. So, if you want to power the cost. So, if you want to power the study, if you want to try to get a study, if you want to try to get a study, if you want to try to get a properly powered study, maybe you want properly powered study, maybe you want properly powered study, maybe you want to increase the scope, right, for more to increase the scope, right, for more to increase the scope, right, for more people to participate, etc. But do you people to participate, etc. But do you people to participate, etc. But do you have any idea, and I know you're not have any idea, and I know you're not have any idea, and I know you're not speaking for him, but do you have any speaking for him, but do you have any speaking for him, but do you have any idea what something like that might idea what something like that might idea what something like that might cost? cost? cost? >> More than you would think. [laughter] >> More than you would think. [laughter] >> More than you would think. [laughter] So, you know, that is a challenge. But, So, you know, that is a challenge. But, So, you know, that is a challenge. But, you know, Chris has found that the you know, Chris has found that the you know, Chris has found that the federal government, National Institute federal government, National Institute federal government, National Institute on Drug Abuse, is willing to fund these on Drug Abuse, is willing to fund these on Drug Abuse, is willing to fund these studies. So, that's very promising. studies. So, that's very promising. studies. So, that's very promising. >> Yeah. I had Nora Vulov of Naida on the >> Yeah. I had Nora Vulov of Naida on the >> Yeah. I had Nora Vulov of Naida on the podcast a couple years ago and it was a podcast a couple years ago and it was a podcast a couple years ago and it was a really good conversation and she was in really good conversation and she was in really good conversation and she was in the I think this don't know if this is the I think this don't know if this is the I think this don't know if this is public might have to scratch it but she public might have to scratch it but she public might have to scratch it but she was in the oval office was in the oval office was in the oval office >> for the executive order related to >> for the executive order related to >> for the executive order related to psychedelics and I was like man that's psychedelics and I was like man that's psychedelics and I was like man that's awesome awesome awesome >> and she's so brilliant so I don't know >> and she's so brilliant so I don't know >> and she's so brilliant so I don't know what her current status is within Naida what her current status is within Naida what her current status is within Naida she might still be running it she might still be running it she might still be running it >> but there seems to be a sea change a >> but there seems to be a sea change a >> but there seems to be a sea change a foot foot foot >> yes >> yes >> yes >> so the timing could be very >> so the timing could be very >> so the timing could be very serendipitous, right, to try to kick serendipitous, right, to try to kick serendipitous, right, to try to kick something off now, particularly on the something off now, particularly on the something off now, particularly on the research front. Okay. Yeah. For people research front. Okay. Yeah. For people research front. Okay. Yeah. For people who might be wondering, I'll just throw who might be wondering, I'll just throw who might be wondering, I'll just throw out some numbers. I mean, early on, this out some numbers. I mean, early on, this out some numbers. I mean, early on, this 2015, helping to fund some of the 2015, helping to fund some of the 2015, helping to fund some of the initials psilocybin studies looking at initials psilocybin studies looking at initials psilocybin studies looking at depression at Hopkins. I mean, for 50k, depression at Hopkins. I mean, for 50k, depression at Hopkins. I mean, for 50k, you could make a huge, huge, huge you could make a huge, huge, huge you could make a huge, huge, huge difference. difference. difference. >> Really, that's great. >> Really, that's great. >> Really, that's great. >> It's not necessarily millions of people. >> It's not necessarily millions of people. >> It's not necessarily millions of people. It depends on Again, It depends on Again, It depends on Again, the size, the ambition, and you don't the size, the ambition, and you don't the size, the ambition, and you don't want to be pennywise and pound foolish, want to be pennywise and pound foolish, want to be pennywise and pound foolish, right? If you can fund more and you want right? If you can fund more and you want right? If you can fund more and you want to drive the possibility for to drive the possibility for to drive the possibility for statistically meaningful outcome that is statistically meaningful outcome that is statistically meaningful outcome that is suitable for publishing and defensible, suitable for publishing and defensible, suitable for publishing and defensible, then maybe you write a bigger check, then maybe you write a bigger check, then maybe you write a bigger check, right? Especially if you're going to right? Especially if you're going to right? Especially if you're going to wait all that time because science is wait all that time because science is wait all that time because science is pretty slow when it's done properly. pretty slow when it's done properly. pretty slow when it's done properly. >> Wade, what can you tell us anything >> Wade, what can you tell us anything >> Wade, what can you tell us anything about what's going on in Canada? because about what's going on in Canada? because about what's going on in Canada? because the regulations in Canada are a little the regulations in Canada are a little the regulations in Canada are a little more favorable than they are in the US more favorable than they are in the US more favorable than they are in the US and there are some research interests up and there are some research interests up and there are some research interests up there. there. there. >> There's nothing really definitive. I >> There's nothing really definitive. I >> There's nothing really definitive. I mean, I think one opening in the States mean, I think one opening in the States mean, I think one opening in the States could be Bobby Kennedy. I've been with could be Bobby Kennedy. I've been with could be Bobby Kennedy. I've been with Bobby, few people know, but when his Bobby, few people know, but when his Bobby, few people know, but when his father was killed, was sent by the father was killed, was sent by the father was killed, was sent by the family to Colombia and he fell in love family to Colombia and he fell in love family to Colombia and he fell in love with Colombia. And I've been in Colombia with Colombia. And I've been in Colombia with Colombia. And I've been in Colombia with Bobby with the Mamos chewing cocoa. with Bobby with the Mamos chewing cocoa. with Bobby with the Mamos chewing cocoa. He totally understands the plant and he He totally understands the plant and he He totally understands the plant and he certainly understands the distinction certainly understands the distinction certainly understands the distinction between cocoa and the alkyoid cocaine. between cocoa and the alkyoid cocaine. between cocoa and the alkyoid cocaine. So I think there's an opening there So I think there's an opening there So I think there's an opening there which could be very promising. which could be very promising. which could be very promising. >> And one area that I very much agree with >> And one area that I very much agree with >> And one area that I very much agree with him on is his initiative to change him on is his initiative to change him on is his initiative to change psychiatry and move it away from you psychiatry and move it away from you psychiatry and move it away from you know the biomedical model which I think know the biomedical model which I think know the biomedical model which I think has been really failed us. Mhm. has been really failed us. Mhm. has been really failed us. Mhm. >> I mean, I think this whole Koka story, >> I mean, I think this whole Koka story, >> I mean, I think this whole Koka story, you slam up against the whole kind of you slam up against the whole kind of you slam up against the whole kind of failure of the war on drugs and the failure of the war on drugs and the failure of the war on drugs and the ideology of the war on drugs. There's a ideology of the war on drugs. There's a ideology of the war on drugs. There's a very funny account where in October, end very funny account where in October, end very funny account where in October, end of October 2020, there was this bust at of October 2020, there was this bust at of October 2020, there was this bust at the Philadelphia International Airport the Philadelphia International Airport the Philadelphia International Airport of 15 pounds of what was called green of 15 pounds of what was called green of 15 pounds of what was called green cocaine. And the customs agents sort of cocaine. And the customs agents sort of cocaine. And the customs agents sort of heralded this great sign of the heralded this great sign of the heralded this great sign of the vigilance of their colleagues and so on, vigilance of their colleagues and so on, vigilance of their colleagues and so on, you know, and anyone who knew anything you know, and anyone who knew anything you know, and anyone who knew anything about anything could see that that green about anything could see that that green about anything could see that that green cocaine was Mambi. And also in the bus cocaine was Mambi. And also in the bus cocaine was Mambi. And also in the bus was a brown paste which everybody knew was a brown paste which everybody knew was a brown paste which everybody knew would have been a tobacco paste. Now would have been a tobacco paste. Now would have been a tobacco paste. Now tobacco kills 400,000 people every year, tobacco kills 400,000 people every year, tobacco kills 400,000 people every year, but it's legal. So this was not of but it's legal. So this was not of but it's legal. So this was not of concern to the agents, but the green concern to the agents, but the green concern to the agents, but the green cocaine was. and they analyzed it and cocaine was. and they analyzed it and cocaine was. and they analyzed it and discovered it had some cocaine in it, discovered it had some cocaine in it, discovered it had some cocaine in it, trivial amounts, so that if anyone had trivial amounts, so that if anyone had trivial amounts, so that if anyone had tried to snort the mambbe, they just tried to snort the mambbe, they just tried to snort the mambbe, they just sort of plugged their nose most sort of plugged their nose most sort of plugged their nose most unpleasantly with a powder the unpleasantly with a powder the unpleasantly with a powder the consistency of talcum powder. But the consistency of talcum powder. But the consistency of talcum powder. But the thing that was so disturbing about the thing that was so disturbing about the thing that was so disturbing about the bust is that after 60 years of war on bust is that after 60 years of war on bust is that after 60 years of war on drugs, you had customs agents who still drugs, you had customs agents who still drugs, you had customs agents who still didn't know the difference between cocoa didn't know the difference between cocoa didn't know the difference between cocoa and cocaine after [clears throat] and cocaine after [clears throat] and cocaine after [clears throat] expending a trillion dollars on this expending a trillion dollars on this expending a trillion dollars on this failed campaign. And that was really the failed campaign. And that was really the failed campaign. And that was really the equivalent, if you think about it, of equivalent, if you think about it, of equivalent, if you think about it, of Elliot Nest busting a truckload of Elliot Nest busting a truckload of Elliot Nest busting a truckload of potatoes in violation of the Volstead potatoes in violation of the Volstead potatoes in violation of the Volstead Act. You know, cocoa is to cocaine what Act. You know, cocoa is to cocaine what Act. You know, cocoa is to cocaine what potatoes are to vodka. potatoes are to vodka. potatoes are to vodka. >> That's a good comparison. I like that. >> That's a good comparison. I like that. >> That's a good comparison. I like that. >> Or a peach. We don't deny us the right >> Or a peach. We don't deny us the right >> Or a peach. We don't deny us the right to enjoy the luscious fruit of a peach to enjoy the luscious fruit of a peach to enjoy the luscious fruit of a peach because of the cardioactive glycosides because of the cardioactive glycosides because of the cardioactive glycosides found within the pit of every peach. Not found within the pit of every peach. Not found within the pit of every peach. Not to kind of push the metaphor, but to kind of push the metaphor, but to kind of push the metaphor, but they're truly apples and oranges. And so they're truly apples and oranges. And so they're truly apples and oranges. And so I think when you combine that kind of in I think when you combine that kind of in I think when you combine that kind of in the- moment idiocy together with the the- moment idiocy together with the the- moment idiocy together with the really pernitious history by which this really pernitious history by which this really pernitious history by which this plant has been demonized, I mean Andy plant has been demonized, I mean Andy plant has been demonized, I mean Andy said earlier that these countries remain said earlier that these countries remain said earlier that these countries remain countries of conquered and conqueror and countries of conquered and conqueror and countries of conquered and conqueror and in this era where we're so sensitive to in this era where we're so sensitive to in this era where we're so sensitive to language. If people were aware of the language. If people were aware of the language. If people were aware of the language and I wrote a long piece for language and I wrote a long piece for language and I wrote a long piece for Rolling Stone called the secret history Rolling Stone called the secret history Rolling Stone called the secret history of Koka, the language being used by of Koka, the language being used by of Koka, the language being used by those who crafted the very documents those who crafted the very documents those who crafted the very documents that we live by to this day is so that we live by to this day is so that we live by to this day is so hideous that it would cause anybody to hideous that it would cause anybody to hideous that it would cause anybody to be immediately dismissed from any be immediately dismissed from any be immediately dismissed from any position in our country today. And yet position in our country today. And yet position in our country today. And yet that language accusing ki users of being that language accusing ki users of being that language accusing ki users of being pornog. I mean you can't because they pornog. I mean you can't because they pornog. I mean you can't because they make this stuff up. And it was all make this stuff up. And it was all make this stuff up. And it was all driven by the same guy Enslinger who driven by the same guy Enslinger who driven by the same guy Enslinger who gave us reefer madness. And so we're gave us reefer madness. And so we're gave us reefer madness. And so we're still living by that mindset which has still living by that mindset which has still living by that mindset which has been utterly exposed as a racist and been utterly exposed as a racist and been utterly exposed as a racist and colonial conceit that it was. I think colonial conceit that it was. I think colonial conceit that it was. I think that Koka is the most perfect example of that Koka is the most perfect example of that Koka is the most perfect example of how we've gone wrong in our relations how we've gone wrong in our relations how we've gone wrong in our relations with the natural world. You know, really with the natural world. You know, really with the natural world. You know, really failing to see that plant for what it failing to see that plant for what it failing to see that plant for what it is, confusing it with this one component is, confusing it with this one component is, confusing it with this one component of it, and then getting ourselves in of it, and then getting ourselves in of it, and then getting ourselves in enormous amounts of trouble. And in my enormous amounts of trouble. And in my enormous amounts of trouble. And in my career as a physician, I have worked for career as a physician, I have worked for career as a physician, I have worked for years and years to help people years and years to help people years and years to help people understand the differences between whole understand the differences between whole understand the differences between whole plants, natural products, and isolated plants, natural products, and isolated plants, natural products, and isolated compounds. I mean, I think isolated compounds. I mean, I think isolated compounds. I mean, I think isolated compounds have their place in medicine, compounds have their place in medicine, compounds have their place in medicine, but very often I see that these complex but very often I see that these complex but very often I see that these complex natural mixtures work better, are much natural mixtures work better, are much natural mixtures work better, are much safer, often have effects that we don't safer, often have effects that we don't safer, often have effects that we don't have pure compounds that work for. And have pure compounds that work for. And have pure compounds that work for. And Coke is a perfect example of that. And Coke is a perfect example of that. And Coke is a perfect example of that. And Andy, when you say that, you know, Andy, when you say that, you know, Andy, when you say that, you know, relation to the natural world in a relation to the natural world in a relation to the natural world in a social sense, social sense, social sense, >> y >> y >> y >> it's expressed in Peru as well. I mean, >> it's expressed in Peru as well. I mean, >> it's expressed in Peru as well. I mean, one of the great rituals I've one of the great rituals I've one of the great rituals I've participated in is called the muimeto. participated in is called the muimeto. participated in is called the muimeto. It's out of Cusco, where once each year, It's out of Cusco, where once each year, It's out of Cusco, where once each year, the fastest young boy in every hamlet is the fastest young boy in every hamlet is the fastest young boy in every hamlet is given the gift of becoming a woman. And given the gift of becoming a woman. And given the gift of becoming a woman. And he has to lead all able-bodied men on he has to lead all able-bodied men on he has to lead all able-bodied men on this ritual run. But it's not your this ritual run. But it's not your this ritual run. But it's not your ordinary run. You start off at 11,500 ordinary run. You start off at 11,500 ordinary run. You start off at 11,500 ft, run down to to the base of the ft, run down to to the base of the ft, run down to to the base of the sacred mountain to 9,000 ft. Then you sacred mountain to 9,000 ft. Then you sacred mountain to 9,000 ft. Then you run to over 16,000 ft, and you fall over run to over 16,000 ft, and you fall over run to over 16,000 ft, and you fall over two across soaring Andian ridges over two across soaring Andian ridges over two across soaring Andian ridges over the course of this 24-hour race, it's the course of this 24-hour race, it's the course of this 24-hour race, it's less a race than a ritual of ordeal. And less a race than a ritual of ordeal. And less a race than a ritual of ordeal. And the idea is that as you enter this race the idea is that as you enter this race the idea is that as you enter this race through pure exhaustion, you make the through pure exhaustion, you make the through pure exhaustion, you make the sacrifice that makes it sacred from the sacrifice that makes it sacred from the sacrifice that makes it sacred from the Latin. And I did that race at the age of Latin. And I did that race at the age of Latin. And I did that race at the age of 48, the oldest man ever to do it and the 48, the oldest man ever to do it and the 48, the oldest man ever to do it and the only outsider to do it. And I only got only outsider to do it. And I only got only outsider to do it. And I only got through that race by chewing more cocoa through that race by chewing more cocoa through that race by chewing more cocoa in one day than anyone in the 8,000 year in one day than anyone in the 8,000 year in one day than anyone in the 8,000 year history of the planet. But the point is history of the planet. But the point is history of the planet. But the point is what Andy is saying about our relation what Andy is saying about our relation what Andy is saying about our relation with the natural world. What that race with the natural world. What that race with the natural world. What that race is really about is expressing a sense of is really about is expressing a sense of is really about is expressing a sense of obligation and belonging. You're running obligation and belonging. You're running obligation and belonging. You're running the perimeter of the lands. There's the perimeter of the lands. There's the perimeter of the lands. There's sacred mounds of earth, hiktos, mahones, sacred mounds of earth, hiktos, mahones, sacred mounds of earth, hiktos, mahones, where the waka must spin to bring the where the waka must spin to bring the where the waka must spin to bring the energy of the woman to the mountaintop energy of the woman to the mountaintop energy of the woman to the mountaintop where coke is given to patcha mama. And where coke is given to patcha mama. And where coke is given to patcha mama. And so the race becomes a ritual of so the race becomes a ritual of so the race becomes a ritual of belonging. You're demonstrating your belonging. You're demonstrating your belonging. You're demonstrating your ownership but also your obligation to ownership but also your obligation to ownership but also your obligation to preserve that land. So you see koka in preserve that land. So you see koka in preserve that land. So you see koka in that sense is as powerful and adjunct to that sense is as powerful and adjunct to that sense is as powerful and adjunct to culture culture culture as Iaska might be amongst the peoples of as Iaska might be amongst the peoples of as Iaska might be amongst the peoples of the anaconda. You know, you can't do the anaconda. You know, you can't do the anaconda. You know, you can't do that run without Koka. Tim and Koka is that run without Koka. Tim and Koka is that run without Koka. Tim and Koka is the mediator. You know, they often say the mediator. You know, they often say the mediator. You know, they often say that the first to taste the leaves was that the first to taste the leaves was that the first to taste the leaves was Antisima Maria in the kind of syncric Antisima Maria in the kind of syncric Antisima Maria in the kind of syncric myth of origins. When she lost the myth of origins. When she lost the myth of origins. When she lost the Christ child and her grief, she sampled Christ child and her grief, she sampled Christ child and her grief, she sampled the leaf and that gave her the spirit to the leaf and that gave her the spirit to the leaf and that gave her the spirit to continue. Well, obviously that's a continue. Well, obviously that's a continue. Well, obviously that's a syncric fusion of pre-Colombian and syncric fusion of pre-Colombian and syncric fusion of pre-Colombian and Catholic ideas, but that's an indicator Catholic ideas, but that's an indicator Catholic ideas, but that's an indicator of its centrality of its centrality of its centrality in the stream of existence in the Andes. in the stream of existence in the Andes. in the stream of existence in the Andes. >> So, let me ask just a personal question >> So, let me ask just a personal question >> So, let me ask just a personal question of you guys which I'm sure has occurred of you guys which I'm sure has occurred of you guys which I'm sure has occurred to a lot of listeners or viewers and to a lot of listeners or viewers and to a lot of listeners or viewers and that is like why why do you care so much that is like why why do you care so much that is like why why do you care so much about this in the hierarchy of reasons about this in the hierarchy of reasons about this in the hierarchy of reasons like what's at the top? What is it for like what's at the top? What is it for like what's at the top? What is it for you Andy? For me, it is the confusion of you Andy? For me, it is the confusion of you Andy? For me, it is the confusion of a plant with an element of it, which is a plant with an element of it, which is a plant with an element of it, which is I think a problem that I see in medicine I think a problem that I see in medicine I think a problem that I see in medicine greatly that we just fail to understand greatly that we just fail to understand greatly that we just fail to understand those differences. And I would like to those differences. And I would like to those differences. And I would like to help educate more people about that. help educate more people about that. help educate more people about that. [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] >> And as I said, I think Koka >> And as I said, I think Koka >> And as I said, I think Koka >> is a most perfect example >> is a most perfect example >> is a most perfect example >> of how we've gone wrong in our >> of how we've gone wrong in our >> of how we've gone wrong in our relationship with a plant. relationship with a plant. relationship with a plant. >> And also just to underscore one thing >> And also just to underscore one thing >> And also just to underscore one thing which is not what you're saying. You which is not what you're saying. You which is not what you're saying. You were not saying that all plants are were not saying that all plants are were not saying that all plants are therefore safe, right? That whole plants therefore safe, right? That whole plants therefore safe, right? That whole plants are therefore like you don't want to go are therefore like you don't want to go are therefore like you don't want to go out and start chugging a bunch of out and start chugging a bunch of out and start chugging a bunch of hemlock tea. Right. hemlock tea. Right. hemlock tea. Right. >> Right. There's plenty of stuff. However, >> Right. There's plenty of stuff. However, >> Right. There's plenty of stuff. However, >> piece versus whole, component versus >> piece versus whole, component versus >> piece versus whole, component versus entire plant are different. They are entire plant are different. They are entire plant are different. They are just different. just different. just different. >> That's a big one. By the way, in our >> That's a big one. By the way, in our >> That's a big one. By the way, in our society particularly, I think there is society particularly, I think there is society particularly, I think there is great fear of nature and we tend to see great fear of nature and we tend to see great fear of nature and we tend to see nature as hostile. I many people I know nature as hostile. I many people I know nature as hostile. I many people I know think if you just go out and randomly think if you just go out and randomly think if you just go out and randomly munch plants in your backyard, you'll munch plants in your backyard, you'll munch plants in your backyard, you'll likely die. You know, the percentage of likely die. You know, the percentage of likely die. You know, the percentage of plants that can seriously harm you is plants that can seriously harm you is plants that can seriously harm you is pretty small. I mean, there aren't many pretty small. I mean, there aren't many pretty small. I mean, there aren't many hemlocks out there, hemlocks out there, hemlocks out there, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> There's a lot of things that don't taste >> There's a lot of things that don't taste >> There's a lot of things that don't taste good. There's a lot of things that might good. There's a lot of things that might good. There's a lot of things that might give you an upset stomach, but there's give you an upset stomach, but there's give you an upset stomach, but there's not a lot of things that can kill you or not a lot of things that can kill you or not a lot of things that can kill you or cause serious harm. I once had dinner cause serious harm. I once had dinner cause serious harm. I once had dinner with the chief technical adviser to one with the chief technical adviser to one with the chief technical adviser to one of the big European supplement companies of the big European supplement companies of the big European supplement companies and he was Austrian. He had traveled all and he was Austrian. He had traveled all and he was Austrian. He had traveled all over the world and he said that one over the world and he said that one over the world and he said that one thing that struck him was the extreme thing that struck him was the extreme thing that struck him was the extreme fear of nature in the English-speaking fear of nature in the English-speaking fear of nature in the English-speaking world. I mean I'd never heard anyone say world. I mean I'd never heard anyone say world. I mean I'd never heard anyone say that but he said this is an attitude that but he said this is an attitude that but he said this is an attitude that he found very common in the UK and that he found very common in the UK and that he found very common in the UK and Canada and Australia and the US New Canada and Australia and the US New Canada and Australia and the US New Zealand. And he said very different to Zealand. And he said very different to Zealand. And he said very different to what you see for example in German what you see for example in German what you see for example in German speakaking Europe where people tend to speakaking Europe where people tend to speakaking Europe where people tend to regard nature as friendly, benign, regard nature as friendly, benign, regard nature as friendly, benign, helpful and you know in German helpful and you know in German helpful and you know in German [clears throat] culture there's great [clears throat] culture there's great [clears throat] culture there's great use of medicinal plants and natural use of medicinal plants and natural use of medicinal plants and natural forms very different from what we have forms very different from what we have forms very different from what we have here. So that's just an interesting here. So that's just an interesting here. So that's just an interesting perspective. I'd never noticed that perspective. I'd never noticed that perspective. I'd never noticed that before. before. before. >> Where do you think that comes from? Any >> Where do you think that comes from? Any >> Where do you think that comes from? Any ideas? ideas? ideas? >> I wonder. Wade any suggestions? >> I wonder. Wade any suggestions? >> I wonder. Wade any suggestions? >> I know. You certainly see it amongst, >> I know. You certainly see it amongst, >> I know. You certainly see it amongst, you know, fungalophobes as you always you know, fungalophobes as you always you know, fungalophobes as you always talk about Andy, you know, the fear of talk about Andy, you know, the fear of talk about Andy, you know, the fear of mushrooms. mushrooms. mushrooms. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, but Kim, back to your >> You know, but Kim, back to your >> You know, but Kim, back to your question, you know, for me, I rever question, you know, for me, I rever question, you know, for me, I rever because of what it's done for my life, because of what it's done for my life, because of what it's done for my life, but also it symbolizes for me everything but also it symbolizes for me everything but also it symbolizes for me everything I care about in terms of culture as an I care about in terms of culture as an I care about in terms of culture as an anthropologist and everything I've ever anthropologist and everything I've ever anthropologist and everything I've ever fought for in terms of the rights of fought for in terms of the rights of fought for in terms of the rights of indigenous people. And it's to me one of indigenous people. And it's to me one of indigenous people. And it's to me one of the most egregious violations of the the most egregious violations of the the most egregious violations of the rights of other cultures. And it's also rights of other cultures. And it's also rights of other cultures. And it's also a denial of the genius of other a denial of the genius of other a denial of the genius of other cultures. So it sort of symbolizes for cultures. So it sort of symbolizes for cultures. So it sort of symbolizes for me everything that I've stood up against me everything that I've stood up against me everything that I've stood up against in my career. And it happens to be a in my career. And it happens to be a in my career. And it happens to be a plant that has brought benefits to me, plant that has brought benefits to me, plant that has brought benefits to me, enormous benefits. But I'll give you if enormous benefits. But I'll give you if enormous benefits. But I'll give you if I could share one anecdote I could share one anecdote I could share one anecdote >> of course >> of course >> of course >> that shows how crazy this all is is that >> that shows how crazy this all is is that >> that shows how crazy this all is is that I don't know if you remember but some I don't know if you remember but some I don't know if you remember but some years ago Peru qualified for the first years ago Peru qualified for the first years ago Peru qualified for the first time in 10 years for the World Cup and I time in 10 years for the World Cup and I time in 10 years for the World Cup and I saw the victory match on a screen in saw the victory match on a screen in saw the victory match on a screen in Cusco was played in Lima and then the Cusco was played in Lima and then the Cusco was played in Lima and then the captain of the Peruvian team who played captain of the Peruvian team who played captain of the Peruvian team who played for a squad in Sao Paulo in a random for a squad in Sao Paulo in a random for a squad in Sao Paulo in a random drug test was shown to have metabolites drug test was shown to have metabolites drug test was shown to have metabolites of cocaine in his urine and he was going of cocaine in his urine and he was going of cocaine in his urine and he was going to be kicked off the team and this was to be kicked off the team and this was to be kicked off the team and this was going to make a huge international going to make a huge international going to make a huge international scandal and his lawyer called me from Sa scandal and his lawyer called me from Sa scandal and his lawyer called me from Sa Paulo. And I said, "Well, wait a minute. Paulo. And I said, "Well, wait a minute. Paulo. And I said, "Well, wait a minute. Doesn't he come from Lima?" "Yeah." Doesn't he come from Lima?" "Yeah." Doesn't he come from Lima?" "Yeah." "Well, they just went through Christmas, "Well, they just went through Christmas, "Well, they just went through Christmas, didn't he go to Ayakucho or Cusco?" didn't he go to Ayakucho or Cusco?" didn't he go to Ayakucho or Cusco?" "Yeah." "Oh, he must have stayed at the "Yeah." "Oh, he must have stayed at the "Yeah." "Oh, he must have stayed at the Monestario Hotel in Cusco cuz that's the Monestario Hotel in Cusco cuz that's the Monestario Hotel in Cusco cuz that's the nicest hotel." "Yeah, that's where he nicest hotel." "Yeah, that's where he nicest hotel." "Yeah, that's where he stayed." Well, that hotel has huge vats stayed." Well, that hotel has huge vats stayed." Well, that hotel has huge vats of coca tea available at all times for of coca tea available at all times for of coca tea available at all times for its clientele for altitude sickness. And its clientele for altitude sickness. And its clientele for altitude sickness. And that's what he had done. He had drunk that's what he had done. He had drunk that's what he had done. He had drunk copious amounts of coca tea. And because copious amounts of coca tea. And because copious amounts of coca tea. And because of the idiocy of our understanding of of the idiocy of our understanding of of the idiocy of our understanding of the difference between the plant and the the difference between the plant and the the difference between the plant and the drug, this could have been an drug, this could have been an drug, this could have been an international incident because you well international incident because you well international incident because you well know that Peruvians, like all Latin know that Peruvians, like all Latin know that Peruvians, like all Latin Americans, take their football very Americans, take their football very Americans, take their football very seriously. seriously. seriously. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But we got it off. >> But we got it off. >> But we got it off. >> Yeah. Very seriously. Andy, it looked >> Yeah. Very seriously. Andy, it looked >> Yeah. Very seriously. Andy, it looked like you were going to say something. Do like you were going to say something. Do like you were going to say something. Do you have anything to add to that? you have anything to add to that? you have anything to add to that? >> Nope. I think for different reasons. We >> Nope. I think for different reasons. We >> Nope. I think for different reasons. We come from different places. We both are come from different places. We both are come from different places. We both are very passionate about this issue. very passionate about this issue. very passionate about this issue. >> Coke has always seemed to be defined as >> Coke has always seemed to be defined as >> Coke has always seemed to be defined as what it is not. It's not cocaine. And what it is not. It's not cocaine. And what it is not. It's not cocaine. And you know, presenting this plant in all you know, presenting this plant in all you know, presenting this plant in all of its kind of glory. I mean, it's of its kind of glory. I mean, it's of its kind of glory. I mean, it's interesting, you know, I mean, Andy's a interesting, you know, I mean, Andy's a interesting, you know, I mean, Andy's a real plant guy. He's a real real plant guy. He's a real real plant guy. He's a real ethnobbotonist, a real physician who's ethnobbotonist, a real physician who's ethnobbotonist, a real physician who's always had plants in his practice. And I always had plants in his practice. And I always had plants in his practice. And I went through a period of time where I went through a period of time where I went through a period of time where I was very much a botanical explorer. But was very much a botanical explorer. But was very much a botanical explorer. But I'm fundamentally a storyteller, a I'm fundamentally a storyteller, a I'm fundamentally a storyteller, a writer, an anthropologist. But this writer, an anthropologist. But this writer, an anthropologist. But this plant wrapped its arms around me when I plant wrapped its arms around me when I plant wrapped its arms around me when I was 19 years old and has never let me was 19 years old and has never let me was 19 years old and has never let me go. And I have a kind of deep fidelity. go. And I have a kind of deep fidelity. go. And I have a kind of deep fidelity. It's hard to explain. I don't normally It's hard to explain. I don't normally It's hard to explain. I don't normally speak in this kind of language, but this speak in this kind of language, but this speak in this kind of language, but this plant has given me so much and has plant has given me so much and has plant has given me so much and has allowed me to explore and have such allowed me to explore and have such allowed me to explore and have such extraordinary experiences in the field extraordinary experiences in the field extraordinary experiences in the field in pursuit of its mysteries and its in pursuit of its mysteries and its in pursuit of its mysteries and its wonder that I feel that liberating Koka wonder that I feel that liberating Koka wonder that I feel that liberating Koka is the final act of my professional is the final act of my professional is the final act of my professional life. I feel that very sincerely and it life. I feel that very sincerely and it life. I feel that very sincerely and it also brings me back to Andy because Andy also brings me back to Andy because Andy also brings me back to Andy because Andy was like always my big brother you know was like always my big brother you know was like always my big brother you know Andy and Tim Plowman who were great Andy and Tim Plowman who were great Andy and Tim Plowman who were great friends both acolytes of Schulties and friends both acolytes of Schulties and friends both acolytes of Schulties and for me I was able to come along as their for me I was able to come along as their for me I was able to come along as their kind of kid brother so the relationship kind of kid brother so the relationship kind of kid brother so the relationship with Andy to me is enormously important with Andy to me is enormously important with Andy to me is enormously important emotionally spiritually even and if Andy emotionally spiritually even and if Andy emotionally spiritually even and if Andy and I in the memory of Tim who and I in the memory of Tim who and I in the memory of Tim who tragically died way too young at the age tragically died way too young at the age tragically died way too young at the age of 45 the great botanical authority on of 45 the great botanical authority on of 45 the great botanical authority on Koka uh he died of AIDS and incidentally Koka uh he died of AIDS and incidentally Koka uh he died of AIDS and incidentally as I was reading and doing his eulogy as I was reading and doing his eulogy as I was reading and doing his eulogy that I conceived the book one river that I conceived the book one river that I conceived the book one river which is a biography of our great which is a biography of our great which is a biography of our great professor Richard Evans Schulties. We're professor Richard Evans Schulties. We're professor Richard Evans Schulties. We're doing this in part in memory of Tim. I'm doing this in part in memory of Tim. I'm doing this in part in memory of Tim. I'm sure Andy would agree. sure Andy would agree. sure Andy would agree. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, I we've covered a lot of >> Yeah. Well, I we've covered a lot of >> Yeah. Well, I we've covered a lot of ground. What I'm going to do also to try ground. What I'm going to do also to try ground. What I'm going to do also to try to consolidate next steps for people for to consolidate next steps for people for to consolidate next steps for people for anyone listening or watching is I'll anyone listening or watching is I'll anyone listening or watching is I'll create tim.blog/ccoa. create tim.blog/ccoa. create tim.blog/ccoa. So on my website So on my website So on my website >> that would be great. that'll lead to >> that would be great. that'll lead to >> that would be great. that'll lead to this episode. And at the very top of the this episode. And at the very top of the this episode. And at the very top of the show notes, we'll have a link to the show notes, we'll have a link to the show notes, we'll have a link to the bp.org. We'll have a link to some of the bp.org. We'll have a link to some of the bp.org. We'll have a link to some of the researchers who were mentioned, researchers who were mentioned, researchers who were mentioned, including any others that you guys might including any others that you guys might including any others that you guys might think of after the fact. think of after the fact. think of after the fact. >> That'd be great. We would most >> That'd be great. We would most >> That'd be great. We would most appreciate that. appreciate that. appreciate that. >> Well, it would be wonderful. A link to >> Well, it would be wonderful. A link to >> Well, it would be wonderful. A link to some of the pieces that Andy and I have some of the pieces that Andy and I have some of the pieces that Andy and I have written would be really great. That written would be really great. That written would be really great. That would be wonderful. would be wonderful. would be wonderful. >> Yeah, for sure. We'll put a bunch of >> Yeah, for sure. We'll put a bunch of >> Yeah, for sure. We'll put a bunch of stuff at the top with a bias for people stuff at the top with a bias for people stuff at the top with a bias for people who are listening. If they're like, who are listening. If they're like, who are listening. If they're like, "This is all great. I don't want to be "This is all great. I don't want to be "This is all great. I don't want to be purely a passive consumer of education purely a passive consumer of education purely a passive consumer of education or edutainment." Like, I actually want or edutainment." Like, I actually want or edutainment." Like, I actually want to put a dent in the world, then we'll to put a dent in the world, then we'll to put a dent in the world, then we'll have that at the top because I don't have that at the top because I don't have that at the top because I don't want to bury that stuff in terms of want to bury that stuff in terms of want to bury that stuff in terms of possible next actions for people, folks. possible next actions for people, folks. possible next actions for people, folks. That'll be at tim.log/ccoa. That'll be at tim.log/ccoa. That'll be at tim.log/ccoa. Just like Coca-Cola. Not a coincidence, Just like Coca-Cola. Not a coincidence, Just like Coca-Cola. Not a coincidence, by the way. by the way. by the way. >> Yeah, [laughter] >> Yeah, [laughter] >> Yeah, [laughter] >> I'll read you. This is a piece on Eater. >> I'll read you. This is a piece on Eater. >> I'll read you. This is a piece on Eater. People can look it up. Maybe I'll link People can look it up. Maybe I'll link People can look it up. Maybe I'll link to it actually. An unassuming set of to it actually. An unassuming set of to it actually. An unassuming set of buildings in Maywood, New Jersey, less buildings in Maywood, New Jersey, less buildings in Maywood, New Jersey, less than 10 miles from Manhattan, holds a than 10 miles from Manhattan, holds a than 10 miles from Manhattan, holds a surprising secret. It's what might be surprising secret. It's what might be surprising secret. It's what might be arguably called the cocaine capital of arguably called the cocaine capital of arguably called the cocaine capital of the United States. Here, a chemical the United States. Here, a chemical the United States. Here, a chemical company manufactures cocaine legally company manufactures cocaine legally company manufactures cocaine legally with a special permission from the US with a special permission from the US with a special permission from the US government. All in service of a familiar government. All in service of a familiar government. All in service of a familiar company, Coca-Cola. Cola, by the way, company, Coca-Cola. Cola, by the way, company, Coca-Cola. Cola, by the way, just for people who like little bits of just for people who like little bits of just for people who like little bits of trivia, comes from Cola Ka. Well, in trivia, comes from Cola Ka. Well, in trivia, comes from Cola Ka. Well, in English at least, African known for its English at least, African known for its English at least, African known for its caffeine content. caffeine content. caffeine content. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> So, there you go. Coca-Cola. And by the >> So, there you go. Coca-Cola. And by the >> So, there you go. Coca-Cola. And by the way, Tim, Coca-Cola notoriously had a way, Tim, Coca-Cola notoriously had a way, Tim, Coca-Cola notoriously had a secret cocoa plantation in Hawaii. secret cocoa plantation in Hawaii. secret cocoa plantation in Hawaii. >> Hawaii. Yeah. >> Hawaii. Yeah. >> Hawaii. Yeah. >> No kidding. >> No kidding. >> No kidding. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Scoundrels. Look at that. >> Scoundrels. Look at that. >> Scoundrels. Look at that. >> And you know that is the only legal >> And you know that is the only legal >> And you know that is the only legal export of cocoa from Peru is to that export of cocoa from Peru is to that export of cocoa from Peru is to that chemical company, Steen Chemical, in chemical company, Steen Chemical, in chemical company, Steen Chemical, in Maywood, New Jersey. And the cocaine is Maywood, New Jersey. And the cocaine is Maywood, New Jersey. And the cocaine is extracted and sold for pharmaceutical extracted and sold for pharmaceutical extracted and sold for pharmaceutical use. And the rest of the leaves are made use. And the rest of the leaves are made use. And the rest of the leaves are made into an extract which is a secret into an extract which is a secret into an extract which is a secret flavoring ingredient in Coca-Cola. flavoring ingredient in Coca-Cola. flavoring ingredient in Coca-Cola. >> And what's more, in the in the 1961 UN >> And what's more, in the in the 1961 UN >> And what's more, in the in the 1961 UN Convention on Narcotic Drugs, there was Convention on Narcotic Drugs, there was Convention on Narcotic Drugs, there was one specific one specific one specific exclusion of Kulka solely for that exclusion of Kulka solely for that exclusion of Kulka solely for that company. And I got to go in Peru to company. And I got to go in Peru to company. And I got to go in Peru to where they were getting their leaves where they were getting their leaves where they were getting their leaves from. And they were trashy leaves. I from. And they were trashy leaves. I from. And they were trashy leaves. I mean, it was literally the sweepings of mean, it was literally the sweepings of mean, it was literally the sweepings of the floor. stuff that Wade and I would the floor. stuff that Wade and I would the floor. stuff that Wade and I would not chew. [laughter] not chew. [laughter] not chew. [laughter] >> Drinking sawdust. >> Drinking sawdust. >> Drinking sawdust. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Botanical sawdust. >> Botanical sawdust. >> Botanical sawdust. Well, another bit of u trivia for folks Well, another bit of u trivia for folks Well, another bit of u trivia for folks if they care. Seven Up used to contain if they care. Seven Up used to contain if they care. Seven Up used to contain lithium citrate. lithium citrate. lithium citrate. >> Oh, yes. Right. Right. >> Oh, yes. Right. Right. >> Oh, yes. Right. Right. >> Back in the day, you know, those old >> Back in the day, you know, those old >> Back in the day, you know, those old soda companies had some stuff figured soda companies had some stuff figured soda companies had some stuff figured out. out. out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, gentlemen, is there anything else >> Well, gentlemen, is there anything else >> Well, gentlemen, is there anything else before we start to wind to a close that before we start to wind to a close that before we start to wind to a close that you would like to add? Certainly. I you would like to add? Certainly. I you would like to add? Certainly. I would love you guys to mention where would love you guys to mention where would love you guys to mention where people can find you online if you'd like people can find you online if you'd like people can find you online if you'd like them to go in any particular direction them to go in any particular direction them to go in any particular direction and anything else that you would like to and anything else that you would like to and anything else that you would like to add. Andy? add. Andy? add. Andy? >> Sure. My website is dr.com. >> Sure. My website is dr.com. >> Sure. My website is dr.com. drwiel.com. drwiel.com. drwiel.com. There's a lot of health information There's a lot of health information There's a lot of health information there. And I am the founder of the there. And I am the founder of the there. And I am the founder of the Andrew Wild University of Arizona Center Andrew Wild University of Arizona Center Andrew Wild University of Arizona Center for Integrative Medicine. We train for Integrative Medicine. We train for Integrative Medicine. We train physicians and health professionals. on physicians and health professionals. on physicians and health professionals. on that website is awcim.org and I'm very proud of our work there. and I'm very proud of our work there. We've graduated almost 3,000 physicians We've graduated almost 3,000 physicians We've graduated almost 3,000 physicians and allied health professionals from our and allied health professionals from our and allied health professionals from our very intensive trainings which include very intensive trainings which include very intensive trainings which include really good instruction on botanical really good instruction on botanical really good instruction on botanical medicine. medicine. medicine. >> I love it. And people can also find you >> I love it. And people can also find you >> I love it. And people can also find you on Instagram X etc. Dr. Wild and on Instagram X etc. Dr. Wild and on Instagram X etc. Dr. Wild and presumably you don't have a tap into the presumably you don't have a tap into the presumably you don't have a tap into the back of your brain for that. I'm sure back of your brain for that. I'm sure back of your brain for that. I'm sure there's nice good publishing of valuable there's nice good publishing of valuable there's nice good publishing of valuable content coming out there so people can content coming out there so people can content coming out there so people can check that out. And then Wade check that out. And then Wade check that out. And then Wade >> I just wanted to say Tim if I could just >> I just wanted to say Tim if I could just >> I just wanted to say Tim if I could just insert this in case you could use it is insert this in case you could use it is insert this in case you could use it is that I've made a lot of reference to the that I've made a lot of reference to the that I've made a lot of reference to the egregious language by those who's egregious language by those who's egregious language by those who's responsible for the language of the UN responsible for the language of the UN responsible for the language of the UN declaration. Mhm. declaration. Mhm. declaration. Mhm. >> But maybe I could just read the key >> But maybe I could just read the key >> But maybe I could just read the key figure was an acolyte of antser who was figure was an acolyte of antser who was figure was an acolyte of antser who was notorious anti-drug warrior that we notorious anti-drug warrior that we notorious anti-drug warrior that we almost joke about with reefer madness. almost joke about with reefer madness. almost joke about with reefer madness. >> But this man name was Pablo Oswaldo >> But this man name was Pablo Oswaldo >> But this man name was Pablo Oswaldo Wolf. He was a chief of the addiction Wolf. He was a chief of the addiction Wolf. He was a chief of the addiction producing drugs section of the World producing drugs section of the World producing drugs section of the World Health Organization. He not only Health Organization. He not only Health Organization. He not only conceived, he wrote the language of Koka conceived, he wrote the language of Koka conceived, he wrote the language of Koka demonization in that. But listen to what demonization in that. But listen to what demonization in that. But listen to what he says and this is from a lecture to he says and this is from a lecture to he says and this is from a lecture to the Royal Society of Medicine in London the Royal Society of Medicine in London the Royal Society of Medicine in London on the very eve of that commission led on the very eve of that commission led on the very eve of that commission led by Fonda going to Peru. by Fonda going to Peru. by Fonda going to Peru. The India who does not chew cocoa leaves The India who does not chew cocoa leaves The India who does not chew cocoa leaves is clearsighted, intelligent and is clearsighted, intelligent and is clearsighted, intelligent and light-hearted, willing to work, vigorous light-hearted, willing to work, vigorous light-hearted, willing to work, vigorous and resistant to diseases. The cockro on and resistant to diseases. The cockro on and resistant to diseases. The cockro on the contrary is apathetic, lazy, the contrary is apathetic, lazy, the contrary is apathetic, lazy, insensitive to his environment. His mind insensitive to his environment. His mind insensitive to his environment. His mind is befoged. His emotional reactions are is befoged. His emotional reactions are is befoged. His emotional reactions are rare and violent. He is morally and rare and violent. He is morally and rare and violent. He is morally and intellectually enesticized, socially intellectually enesticized, socially intellectually enesticized, socially subdued, almost a slave. Moral subdued, almost a slave. Moral subdued, almost a slave. Moral degeneration accompanies the physical. degeneration accompanies the physical. degeneration accompanies the physical. Lying is one of the outstanding Lying is one of the outstanding Lying is one of the outstanding characteristics, probably due to a lack characteristics, probably due to a lack characteristics, probably due to a lack of moral equilibrium. Criminality is of moral equilibrium. Criminality is of moral equilibrium. Criminality is high and barbaric forms of homicide can high and barbaric forms of homicide can high and barbaric forms of homicide can only be explained by a certain moral only be explained by a certain moral only be explained by a certain moral insensibility. insensibility. insensibility. We are convinced that cocoa leaf chewing We are convinced that cocoa leaf chewing We are convinced that cocoa leaf chewing is a social evil. The chronic is a social evil. The chronic is a social evil. The chronic consumption of these leaves constitutes consumption of these leaves constitutes consumption of these leaves constitutes a social poison which undermines the a social poison which undermines the a social poison which undermines the physical and mental health of the physical and mental health of the physical and mental health of the population. The children of cockeros are population. The children of cockeros are population. The children of cockeros are markedly deficient in intelligence. markedly deficient in intelligence. markedly deficient in intelligence. There is no doubt that the habit of There is no doubt that the habit of There is no doubt that the habit of chewing coke leaves is one of the most chewing coke leaves is one of the most chewing coke leaves is one of the most powerful reasons for the backwardness powerful reasons for the backwardness powerful reasons for the backwardness and misery of the Indian population. The and misery of the Indian population. The and misery of the Indian population. The last link in a chain of social and last link in a chain of social and last link in a chain of social and medical scourges which include medical scourges which include medical scourges which include popperism, bad housing conditions, popperism, bad housing conditions, popperism, bad housing conditions, deficient nutrition, rudimentary or deficient nutrition, rudimentary or deficient nutrition, rudimentary or completely absent education, alcoholism, completely absent education, alcoholism, completely absent education, alcoholism, tuberculosis, venerial disease and other tuberculosis, venerial disease and other tuberculosis, venerial disease and other infections and promiscuity to mention infections and promiscuity to mention infections and promiscuity to mention only the worst calamities and miseries. only the worst calamities and miseries. only the worst calamities and miseries. >> I never heard that, Wade. I never heard. >> I never heard that, Wade. I never heard. >> I never heard that, Wade. I never heard. >> It's quite a list of offenses. This is >> It's quite a list of offenses. This is >> It's quite a list of offenses. This is quoted in my Rolling Stone piece, Andy. quoted in my Rolling Stone piece, Andy. quoted in my Rolling Stone piece, Andy. You just can't believe the language. The You just can't believe the language. The You just can't believe the language. The remedy of the moment is gradual dis remedy of the moment is gradual dis remedy of the moment is gradual dis intoxication of the native, diminishing intoxication of the native, diminishing intoxication of the native, diminishing the production as well as the the production as well as the the production as well as the consumption of cocoa by means of a consumption of cocoa by means of a consumption of cocoa by means of a suitable education by abolishing the suitable education by abolishing the suitable education by abolishing the superstition of the magic action and the superstition of the magic action and the superstition of the magic action and the well-being of the leaves by prohibiting well-being of the leaves by prohibiting well-being of the leaves by prohibiting initiation of young, you know, goes on initiation of young, you know, goes on initiation of young, you know, goes on and on. Only with skill and patience can and on. Only with skill and patience can and on. Only with skill and patience can cocoa addiction be abolished. But it can cocoa addiction be abolished. But it can cocoa addiction be abolished. But it can be done. Christianized Indians no longer be done. Christianized Indians no longer be done. Christianized Indians no longer live in the former wretched conditions live in the former wretched conditions live in the former wretched conditions and thus show themselves physically and and thus show themselves physically and and thus show themselves physically and mentally capable of freeing themselves mentally capable of freeing themselves mentally capable of freeing themselves from cocoa leaf chewing and addictions. from cocoa leaf chewing and addictions. from cocoa leaf chewing and addictions. And you have to think this is the man And you have to think this is the man And you have to think this is the man who wrote the statutes that we turn to who wrote the statutes that we turn to who wrote the statutes that we turn to today in the 1961 UN Convention on today in the 1961 UN Convention on today in the 1961 UN Convention on Narcotic Drugs. This is the language Narcotic Drugs. This is the language Narcotic Drugs. This is the language that the UN World Health Organization that the UN World Health Organization that the UN World Health Organization has recently affirmed by refusing to has recently affirmed by refusing to has recently affirmed by refusing to deschedu or reschedu Koka. deschedu or reschedu Koka. deschedu or reschedu Koka. >> Might be time for an update. >> Might be time for an update. >> Might be time for an update. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> it's that bad. Now, can you think of any >> it's that bad. Now, can you think of any >> it's that bad. Now, can you think of any other policy that we would live by other policy that we would live by other policy that we would live by today? It's like policies have been today? It's like policies have been today? It's like policies have been written by I don't know Herman Goran or written by I don't know Herman Goran or written by I don't know Herman Goran or Google dictating you know religious Google dictating you know religious Google dictating you know religious policies today in the United States of policies today in the United States of policies today in the United States of America and yet this is what we are America and yet this is what we are America and yet this is what we are trying to deal with and confront and it trying to deal with and confront and it trying to deal with and confront and it is so dark and so evil. Well, it sounds is so dark and so evil. Well, it sounds is so dark and so evil. Well, it sounds like a terrible b time for an update. C like a terrible b time for an update. C like a terrible b time for an update. C I'm sure a lot of the people who are I'm sure a lot of the people who are I'm sure a lot of the people who are adjacently or indirectly affirming this adjacently or indirectly affirming this adjacently or indirectly affirming this have no idea what it actually says, have no idea what it actually says, have no idea what it actually says, right? They have not right? They have not right? They have not >> read what you just read aloud. So worth >> read what you just read aloud. So worth >> read what you just read aloud. So worth another look like a lot of things. And another look like a lot of things. And another look like a lot of things. And not saying it's a panacea, not saying not saying it's a panacea, not saying not saying it's a panacea, not saying that that that there shouldn't be guide rails or guard there shouldn't be guide rails or guard there shouldn't be guide rails or guard rails, but that it's worth another look. rails, but that it's worth another look. rails, but that it's worth another look. And I do think the wedge in the door to And I do think the wedge in the door to And I do think the wedge in the door to pull from language earlier probably is a pull from language earlier probably is a pull from language earlier probably is a awareness of the benefits. And I think awareness of the benefits. And I think awareness of the benefits. And I think you guys do a pretty damn fine job of you guys do a pretty damn fine job of you guys do a pretty damn fine job of showcasing the longitudinal productivity showcasing the longitudinal productivity showcasing the longitudinal productivity gains gains gains [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] of of moderate sustained use and of of moderate sustained use and of of moderate sustained use and separately getting some science funded separately getting some science funded separately getting some science funded and I think those are parallel tracks. and I think those are parallel tracks. and I think those are parallel tracks. >> Yeah. and the [snorts] film itself being >> Yeah. and the [snorts] film itself being >> Yeah. and the [snorts] film itself being used as an educational tool to support I used as an educational tool to support I used as an educational tool to support I would say both of those, right? The would say both of those, right? The would say both of those, right? The latter and the scientific exploration latter and the scientific exploration latter and the scientific exploration >> because it strikes me. I mean, look, I'm >> because it strikes me. I mean, look, I'm >> because it strikes me. I mean, look, I'm not a doctor. I don't play one on the not a doctor. I don't play one on the not a doctor. I don't play one on the internet, nor am I a scientist, but I I internet, nor am I a scientist, but I I internet, nor am I a scientist, but I I like to spend time with a lot of like to spend time with a lot of like to spend time with a lot of scientists. It's like I I think about scientists. It's like I I think about scientists. It's like I I think about some of the effects of cocoa and the some of the effects of cocoa and the some of the effects of cocoa and the appetite suppression, but the physical appetite suppression, but the physical appetite suppression, but the physical vigor in the absence of food, and I vigor in the absence of food, and I vigor in the absence of food, and I wonder, man, I would love to just take wonder, man, I would love to just take wonder, man, I would love to just take blood ketone measurements of these blood ketone measurements of these blood ketone measurements of these people. people. people. >> Simple stuff. >> Simple stuff. >> Simple stuff. >> I mean, so simple. So, so, so >> I mean, so simple. So, so, so >> I mean, so simple. So, so, so straightforward. straightforward. straightforward. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, guys, this has been wonderful. Any >> Well, guys, this has been wonderful. Any >> Well, guys, this has been wonderful. Any last closing comments, concerns, last closing comments, concerns, last closing comments, concerns, complaints? complaints? complaints? >> Thank you for providing a forum to talk >> Thank you for providing a forum to talk >> Thank you for providing a forum to talk about this. My pleasure. about this. My pleasure. about this. My pleasure. >> I would like to add Andy just one >> I would like to add Andy just one >> I would like to add Andy just one comment in which Kim just said and what comment in which Kim just said and what comment in which Kim just said and what you responded how easy these experiments you responded how easy these experiments you responded how easy these experiments could have been done. Yeah. And I think could have been done. Yeah. And I think could have been done. Yeah. And I think we have to remember that it's not an we have to remember that it's not an we have to remember that it's not an accident that they weren't done. accident that they weren't done. accident that they weren't done. >> In other words, the nutritional study >> In other words, the nutritional study >> In other words, the nutritional study that you and Tim did in 1970s could have that you and Tim did in 1970s could have that you and Tim did in 1970s could have been done in the 1920s. It wasn't done been done in the 1920s. It wasn't done been done in the 1920s. It wasn't done because people did not want anything because people did not want anything because people did not want anything that would affirm the possibility that that would affirm the possibility that that would affirm the possibility that the plant was anything but the demonic the plant was anything but the demonic the plant was anything but the demonic entity that they claimed it to be. So, entity that they claimed it to be. So, entity that they claimed it to be. So, it's important in all of this to it's important in all of this to it's important in all of this to remember this wasn't just sort of an remember this wasn't just sort of an remember this wasn't just sort of an accident of history or a casual neglect. accident of history or a casual neglect. accident of history or a casual neglect. This was a conscious attempt to demonize This was a conscious attempt to demonize This was a conscious attempt to demonize and eradicate a plant and not for and eradicate a plant and not for and eradicate a plant and not for pharmarmacological reasons, not for pharmarmacological reasons, not for pharmarmacological reasons, not for medical reasons, not for social reasons, medical reasons, not for social reasons, medical reasons, not for social reasons, for cultural and political and reasons for cultural and political and reasons for cultural and political and reasons of power. of power. of power. >> Yeah. I wouldn't want to by association >> Yeah. I wouldn't want to by association >> Yeah. I wouldn't want to by association [clears throat] make policy makers feel [clears throat] make policy makers feel [clears throat] make policy makers feel like they need to carry the burden of like they need to carry the burden of like they need to carry the burden of what was truly uh travesty if they are what was truly uh travesty if they are what was truly uh travesty if they are in part those whose help we would we in part those whose help we would we in part those whose help we would we would like but understanding the history would like but understanding the history would like but understanding the history is important. I mean we'll link to the is important. I mean we'll link to the is important. I mean we'll link to the Rolling Stone piece and also Andy Rolling Stone piece and also Andy Rolling Stone piece and also Andy anything else that you would like linked anything else that you would like linked anything else that you would like linked for people who want to check it out at for people who want to check it out at for people who want to check it out at tim.blog/coka. tim.blog/coka. tim.blog/coka. I mean cocoa has been of incredible I mean cocoa has been of incredible I mean cocoa has been of incredible interest to me for decades now. It is of interest to me for decades now. It is of interest to me for decades now. It is of such cultural importance. It is of such cultural importance. It is of such cultural importance. It is of ecological importance. ecological importance. ecological importance. >> Economic importance. >> Economic importance. >> Economic importance. >> Economic importance. If you care about >> Economic importance. If you care about >> Economic importance. If you care about conservation, if you care about conservation, if you care about conservation, if you care about indigenous land rights, if you care indigenous land rights, if you care indigenous land rights, if you care about health and performance, period. about health and performance, period. about health and performance, period. Yeah. Let's say you don't give a damn Yeah. Let's say you don't give a damn Yeah. Let's say you don't give a damn about what happens in South America, but about what happens in South America, but about what happens in South America, but you just you just you just >> say, "Wow, I feel like pounded dog [ __ ] >> say, "Wow, I feel like pounded dog [ __ ] >> say, "Wow, I feel like pounded dog [ __ ] after three cups of coffee and then I after three cups of coffee and then I after three cups of coffee and then I can't sleep at night and then I'm can't sleep at night and then I'm can't sleep at night and then I'm dependent and I have a headache when I dependent and I have a headache when I dependent and I have a headache when I try to stop." It's worth digging a try to stop." It's worth digging a try to stop." It's worth digging a little deeper and educating yourself on little deeper and educating yourself on little deeper and educating yourself on cocoa. It may not be available tomorrow, cocoa. It may not be available tomorrow, cocoa. It may not be available tomorrow, may not be available next year, but it may not be available next year, but it may not be available next year, but it is [snorts] deeply deeply interesting is [snorts] deeply deeply interesting is [snorts] deeply deeply interesting and endlessly fascinating as a possible and endlessly fascinating as a possible and endlessly fascinating as a possible subject or focus of experiments. So, subject or focus of experiments. So, subject or focus of experiments. So, I will leave it at that for now. We can I will leave it at that for now. We can I will leave it at that for now. We can always and I'm sure we'll be chatting always and I'm sure we'll be chatting always and I'm sure we'll be chatting more via text, but thank you guys very more via text, but thank you guys very more via text, but thank you guys very much. Oh, and I would be remiss if I much. Oh, and I would be remiss if I much. Oh, and I would be remiss if I didn't remind you, didn't remind you, didn't remind you, Wade, that people can find you at Wade, that people can find you at Wade, that people can find you at daviswade.com. Is that right? daviswade.com. Is that right? daviswade.com. Is that right? >> Yeah, that that's my website. >> Yeah, that that's my website. >> Yeah, that that's my website. >> That's the main place. Anywhere else you >> That's the main place. Anywhere else you >> That's the main place. Anywhere else you would like to point people? We got Wade would like to point people? We got Wade would like to point people? We got Wade Davis official on Instagram, exauthor Davis official on Instagram, exauthor Davis official on Instagram, exauthor Wade Davis. Yeah, Wade Davis. Yeah, Wade Davis. Yeah, >> I think people would be intrigued by the >> I think people would be intrigued by the >> I think people would be intrigued by the book One River, which is really the book One River, which is really the book One River, which is really the account of Tim and I and Koka and account of Tim and I and Koka and account of Tim and I and Koka and Schulties. Schulties. Schulties. >> It's a great book. It is a great book. >> It's a great book. It is a great book. >> It's a great book. It is a great book. >> That book in particular would open >> That book in particular would open >> That book in particular would open people's eyes. people's eyes. people's eyes. >> Yeah. Perfect. All right. Check out One >> Yeah. Perfect. All right. Check out One >> Yeah. Perfect. All right. Check out One River, folks. River, folks. River, folks. >> Tim, again, we're grateful for your >> Tim, again, we're grateful for your >> Tim, again, we're grateful for your support. Uh it can make a big support. Uh it can make a big support. Uh it can make a big difference. difference. difference. >> Very much so. >> Very much so. >> Very much so. >> My pleasure. My pleasure. >> My pleasure. My pleasure. >> My pleasure. My pleasure. >> Yeah. Thanks so much, Tim. Very >> Yeah. Thanks so much, Tim. Very >> Yeah. Thanks so much, Tim. Very grateful. grateful. grateful. >> This is important stuff. And it's also >> This is important stuff. And it's also >> This is important stuff. And it's also while I have this before AI gobbles while I have this before AI gobbles while I have this before AI gobbles every podcast I would like to surface every podcast I would like to surface every podcast I would like to surface subjects that are of importance that subjects that are of importance that subjects that are of importance that have not yet been reputationally have not yet been reputationally have not yet been reputationally derisked. derisked. derisked. >> I don't have to report to any corporate >> I don't have to report to any corporate >> I don't have to report to any corporate overlord who can fire me or throttle my overlord who can fire me or throttle my overlord who can fire me or throttle my sponsors or whatever it might be. So I sponsors or whatever it might be. So I sponsors or whatever it might be. So I have the incredible accidental luxury of have the incredible accidental luxury of have the incredible accidental luxury of being able to and joy of being able to being able to and joy of being able to being able to and joy of being able to have these conversations with folks like have these conversations with folks like have these conversations with folks like the two of you who are bringing in the two of you who are bringing in the two of you who are bringing in decades of of expertise and research. So decades of of expertise and research. So decades of of expertise and research. So always appreciate the time. Always nice always appreciate the time. Always nice always appreciate the time. Always nice to see you both. And for people to see you both. And for people to see you both. And for people listening as always show notes check it listening as always show notes check it listening as always show notes check it out. tim.blogca blog/ccoa out. tim.blogca blog/ccoa out. tim.blogca blog/ccoa will go straight to this episode and will go straight to this episode and will go straight to this episode and give you more information on where you give you more information on where you give you more information on where you can learn more. And until next time, be can learn more. And until next time, be can learn more. And until next time, be just a bit kinder than is necessary to just a bit kinder than is necessary to just a bit kinder than is necessary to others and to yourself. Compassion, oh others and to yourself. Compassion, oh others and to yourself. Compassion, oh yeah, that applies to yourself, too. yeah, that applies to yourself, too. yeah, that applies to yourself, too. Don't forget that. And as always, thanks Don't forget that. And as always, thanks Don't forget that. And as always, thanks for tuning in.