The Man Who Walked Away From a $100M Netflix Deal

Key Takeaway

Protect your creative work by separating exploration from announcement. Today, choose one idea you are tempted to post, pitch broadly, or talk about prematurely; instead, write a one-page private brief defining the audience, the problem, your point of view, and the next concrete step. Share it only with one trusted collaborator. Kenya Barris argues that ideas need containment until they are real, while both guests emphasize that a distinctive voice and substantive knowledge—not performative confidence—create durable opportunities.

Episode Overview

Rich Roll hosts writer Malcolm Gladwell and filmmaker Kenya Barris to discuss their Audible podcast, The Unusual Suspects, creative voice, career risk, and the rapidly changing media landscape. Barris reflects on turning personal adversity into storytelling, walking away from a major Netflix deal to pursue ownership, and the importance of relationships, while Gladwell explores how creators can remain distinctive amid institutional and technological change.

Full Transcript

Transcript of The Man Who Walked Away From a $100M Netflix Deal from Rich Roll Podcast. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

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You fucked me, man. I love the 7am flex, by the way. We have director Kenya Barris. Kenya Barris, American writer, producer, director, creator of the hit sitcom, Black-ish. You had this like $100 million Netflix deal, right? I took the gamble, and we were doing successful, and I took the gamble. You're not just a guy who created a couple TV shows. Like, you built an empire. I couldn't sell for four years. I could not sell anything. It was while I was at the height of my career.

Comedians, you learn to sort of take and filter your negativity into something funny. My mom shot my dad. My brother were gangsters and drug dealers. A lot of crazy stuff, you know what I'm saying? I'm really good at putting out fires. It's because I grew up in a burning house. All right. Well, I'm back with Malcolm. Round three or four, I'm not sure. Last time you were here with Chris Chavez, that was a kind of meeting of the usual suspects. This is the unusual suspects. Today, we're joined by Kenya Barris, which is an interesting alliance that you guys have here.

We're on the precipice of season two of your Audible original podcast, The Unusual Suspects. That's the occasion for this conversation. I was fortunate enough to be one of the guests on this show. I think I said at the outset of that experience that I was baffled by being invited when I look at the list of other people that you sat down with. I mean, I'm still confused by that, but I'll take advantage of it. But happy to be here with you guys. I've been thinking a lot about the friendship that the two of you have.

When I think about the two of you, what you share in common is a tremendous amount of curiosity about the world, and that obviously infuses your creative works. But what differentiates you is that Kenya, your work is all about your personal life, whereas Malcolm goes to great lengths to remove any aspect of his personal life from the work that he does. Have you guys discussed that at all? Well, it's the difference between... Kenya is a comedian at heart, right? And comics necessarily draw on their own lives.

That's the... Whereas I'm not a... I don't have a comic perspective on the world. But you do. I will say this talk about quite often your upbringing. I don't write about it. I will... But you write about it. You've written about where your parents came from, your grandmother. That's true. Your mom is a central figure in your work. I just saw her, 95 years young. But you're sort of like, my life's boring. No one's interested in that. My life is, in fact, boring. And I don't think anyone would be interested in that.

No, the point is, why would I? I don't know whether others would enjoy it. I would not enjoy the process of writing about my own life. Because it's so much more interesting to discover people who are new. You both know a lot of people. You meet a lot of people. What is it about each other that magnetized you to each other to be co-collaborators? Well, Kenya is my... I am, as you know, half black, half white. But I don't get to exercise my blackness. Because I live in a very white world.

I live in the Hudson Valley. There's not even any black people in my kids' schools. And all my people are Jamaicans. And even Jamaicans are their own little breed. Kenya allows me to exercise my blackness. He knows every black person, as far as I can tell, in Hollywood. That is true. I know a lot, but they know you too. But he's so connected to all that. It's a way for me to live vicariously through Kenya's position. Well, let's hear a little bit about your backstory, Kenya.

I know Malcolm's well, and he's shared it here in the past. You're new to this show, and I think there's probably more than a few people who aren't familiar with your work. So you grew up in Inglewood. I was born a poor black child. That's the fucking beginning of the jerk. Now you're lording over a tremendous empire. No, I was actually born in Pacoima and moved to Inglewood. And single mom, after a while, my mom and dad was kind of abusive. Mom taught them a lesson.

All that stuff happened. My mom was, interestingly enough, really smart with her money. They really were investing in low-income commercial apartment buildings, residential apartment buildings. Not commercial residential apartment buildings, but in the jungle and neighborhoods. She wanted Section 8 to be there because she knew she would get her check. She was a gangster. She would walk around a little 38 to collect her own rent. I was like, what are you doing? Maybe you shouldn't be in this business. She would go collect her rent, and she was like, if these guys can't pay me $25 a month, she would let people go eight months, nine months without paying their rent because she's like, it's no money.

She's like, I probably should bring a gun to come get this $200 because these guys are having a brawl. But she was smart because she was like, I'm going to get a certain amount of money. She told us to never rent. She always was like, buy. Buy your homes. It's like your own personal little bank. People have told me that's not a good idea, but I cannot tell you how many times my house has bailed me out of a lot of bad issues like having properties bail me out.

But brothers and sisters went to SC. We were the first generation, and I realize that we were the first generation that directly benefited from the Civil Rights Movement. When my mom used to always make sure we knew that. Theirs was like, maybe they'll go to school. It was like for us, we had to go to school. I knew I wanted to go to college. I thought I wanted to be a doctor. Ended up going to black college in Atlanta. Married a doctor. You initially were studying medicine?

I was. Organic chemistry. I was like, come on, get real. This isn't for you. I was pre-med as well. After organic chemistry, I was like, I'm done with this. It's the breaking point. They say that's the turning point. I was getting like, I had never got a 12 on a test. I was getting horrible grades. Wrote a play. Ruby Dean, Ozzie Davis put it on. Lawrence Fishburne helped put it on. I was like, oh, I kind of can do this. Hold on a second. How did Lawrence Fishburne enter the equation?

Because he was part of AUC. You had Spike Lee's mentor at your behest back then? I did. You were able to connect with some interesting people that shifted your perspective. I was. How did you connect with that crowd? Spike went to Morehouse and I wanted to be Spike. Everybody wanted to be Spike. For me, there was, John Cena and Spike, but I wanted to be Spike because Spike was doing really black stories, but he was doing them in a way, aesthetically, that had the same sort of execution of Scorsese or whatever.

Stuff that he was not in any way trying to run from black stories, but he was doing them in a way that they spoke to a really wide audience. I liked that. I wanted to study under whoever taught him that. What year was this? 92 to 96. So, it was before Malcolm X, but after Do the Right Thing. After Do the Right Thing, before Malcolm X. You understood immediately going to AUC why he got it because there's something about that. Now you're saying all these kids, my kids, one of them went to HBCU and they went to these really fancy private schools, but now you go to these fancy private schools and it's like all those kids are turning down Stanford.

They're turning down Duke. They're turning down Berkeley to go experience that because I think what is happening is they realize it's undergrad anyway, so if they want to do something advanced where they go to grad school really matters, but it's weird when you're used to being an other and you get to go to some place that you kind of feel like you're not an other and now you're doing it with other kids who have a little bit of means and chose this and they're not there because they didn't have other options.

It changed my life to go and be in a situation coming from LA which is interestingly enough pretty it's pretty segregated. South of the 10 is the neighborhood and I didn't really realize how segregated it was because you're there and you see people. It's like we really do live different lives, so to go to a place where it was as homogenized as Atlanta was and you saw also a lot of people outside of school. Atlanta was the home of the most black millionaires when I was there.

I don't know if it still is. You saw a lot of doctors, a lot of lawyers a lot of people. There's not too many places in the world that you can be in a building somewhere in this country and a black person owns that building without you knowing. There's a lot of times you'd be in a building and you'd be like, oh a black person owns this building or you get four dental recommendations and all four of them are black. It was like a really interesting.

It expanded your sense of what was possible. It expanded my sense of self-worth which I think is hard when you kind of come up in a segregated situation where you're part of this segregated half is socioeconomically depressed. Especially when your mom is telling you you can do everything, you can do whatever when you go to a place and you actually see that you're homogenized. It's not Wakanda. You go to a place and you see people actually doing stuff. It changes your belief in what you can do.

How did you find your voice? It's crazy. People say I'm really good at putting out fires. That's because I grew up in a burning house. It's not something that you really I think I found my voice through a lot of my mom shot my dad in front of me. My brother were gangsters and drug dealers and addicts. Grandmother was married a bunch of six, seven times. A lot of crazy stuff. Little brother died of leukemia. A lot of trauma. But that stuff is the stuff that you comedians, a lot of times you learn to sort of take and filter that negativity into something funny.

Realizing for me, I broke out in seventh grade when I was starting to like girls. I was this short kid. Chubby short kid with acne. Didn't really have money. My brothers were much more cooler than me. I would go sit in the back of the classroom. I would just sit there quietly and I'd watch everybody for weeks walk in. I wouldn't say shit. I had a couple friends and I'd wait for someone to sort of bag on me and I'd destroy them. Because it would seem like it was coming right from, but I had been waiting for you to say this to me for four weeks.

I have 35 jokes for you. And suddenly it was like people were like, oh he's funny. I started just watching and realizing if you can make people laugh or fear you, you're the same thing or whatever. And so that became just finding out that using my voice is sort of like everybody has something. And kind of finding what people's tales are. And reading rooms. And I kind of think that was the best way of telling stories was through context. You know what I'm saying? Like so many people tell stories they don't tell the other side of the story, right?

And I'm like, if you can tell a story and you can create enough characters where you're not just telling it from one point of view and you can actually explore it through a narrative that seems like it has enough different people to make people think about it, that's my voice. It seems like it happened pretty quickly for you. You write this play, but it's not long before post-college you're in LA, you're on writing staffs, you're starting to sell shows. I mean, I think you've sold like, I don't know, 20 pilots over the years, something like more than that.

Incredibly prolific career as a creator, also very successful as a business person. It's interesting, your mom was almost like your mentor for business as a young person. But in terms of your career trajectory and your arc, you seem to move right in and kind of plant your flag pretty quickly. And you were 30 when you co-created America's Top Model, right? I was probably younger than that. I thought I was 30 when it came on. So even younger than that. But yeah, I think taking the swings has been, you know what I'm saying?

The thing was like, that Hustler sort of vibe of taking the swings. I think, you know, it's crazy. I was a fan of Malcolm and I, Tipping Point was out. And I think it was like, it's almost like 48 laws of power, you know what I'm saying? 50 to 50 laws of power. But like, there's certain shunzu, there's certain books that become like hood classics that are like the books that you wouldn't think, right? But like, they kind of like, lend themselves to like Hustler mentality.

And Tipping Point, it, you know, was, told you how things become, go from this to, you know, fad to, you know, into phenomenon and things like that. And the different people that are needed. And it was like, exactly when you're trying to start having a crew, if you're going to be a weed crew, if you're going to be like in this, like exactly was like, you need to have one of these kinds of people. So I saw Malcolm at this restaurant, Jelena, and he was just trying to like, literally be left alone.

And like, I walked up to him and I was like, probably sagging jeans and whatever. And I was like, oh my God, I'm so, you know what I'm saying? Like, it was a long time ago. So a long time ago. I was 15, more than that, maybe. When were you doing Blackish? I had not done Blackish yet, had I? I thought you had done Blackish. I think I was just starting Blackish. It was maybe 15 years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you guys have been friends for a long time.

I met him and he was very kind and like, we kept in touch or whatever. And I would, you know, hear from him or see him. I think we did a podcast together. It really came during a really interesting time, like where pandemic had happened and I had done the show Black AF. And it was so split in terms of people loved it or hated it. It was myself and Rashida Jones starring in it. It was on Netflix. It kind of was like Blackish on steroids, you know what I'm saying?

It was like the much more bluer, satirical version. And Black people don't get to do satire, which was like really what I wanted to do. It was a more satirical version of it. I was playing a version of myself. And it came out and it was like, literally people loved it or hated it, you know what I'm saying? It got really good reviews, I mean, really good numbers. But Malcolm said some really positive things about it. And I was like, oh my God, thank you for that because it changed.

I was like having like a crazy day. And I noticed that the people who were saying that was having the issues with it were people of color, you know what I'm saying? A lot of Black people were having issues with it because I think it was not what they were used to, you know what I'm saying? At that time, Tyler, who was a friend, he does amazing work, but he had become the gold standard of what it was. And it was so far away from that, you know what I'm saying?

And I think it scared a lot of people too, because it also had a sense of isolationism in terms of like, this life you don't live. And I think the people who got it were like, that kind of reminds me of just my life. And other people were like, this is so far from what a real Black guy's life is. And we got into a conversation and we did some stuff with Pharrell, you know what I'm saying? We started talking about that. And I started realizing, by this time I had really got into your books.

And I started realizing like, there was something that I found in those books that really always stuck with me since I was a kid, not before I read his books. I always had a curiosity of the why behind the why, you know what I'm saying? And I think that's what Malcolm's books do so well, you know what I'm saying? It's like, it finds the thing, and then it asks the question behind the thing, you know what I'm saying? And in the storytelling, that's what Black-ish did, you know what I'm saying?

It basically is a hypothesis that we try to prove or disprove from, you know, why are Tatiana, Tatia Tisha, or something like that, you know what I'm saying? Or Devante, you know what I'm saying? Where did those names come from? And people want to make fun of them, me being one of them, you know what I'm saying? And instead of just leaving that out there, actually doing some research, you know what I'm saying? And realize that they came from like a really interesting sort of civil rights movement of people wanting to escape from like, we're not African, you know what I'm saying?

We're also not part of the fabric of like, mainstream America. So they wanted to create their own sort of identity in a place where so much, and I was like, and so you do a story about it. That was very similar to a type of story Malcolm would do. And so I was like, I started really realizing, and almost in a Chico way, like that was something that I could get from reading his books, but also in telling type of stories, like that was a little bit of the secret sauce of what Black-ish and my storytelling in general, you know, really became.

How does that feel to you to hear that? I mean, he's basically saying like, you know, there's some sort of inception happening here, where the spirit of your work has influenced how he thinks about the stories, how to tell the stories that he wants to tell. I was going to make another observation first, which is, Kenny didn't answer the question. In a very interesting way. The question was, I've noticed that on more than one occasion, you never want to tell us. Some kind of miraculous thing happens.

So you're growing up in Englewood, you go to Clark. And this was the question was, and the next thing you know, you're making shows and that are being watched by millions of people. How did you get those doors open? Okay, so I just recently had this conversation with someone. So it's interesting you're pointing out. This is not the first time, by the way. You always change the subject. So I'm not one of those guys, when we were interviewed you and you talked about like, mind over matter and manifestation.

I don't believe in that shit. You know what I'm saying? That just feels like airy-fairy. You know what I'm saying? What's going to happen, happens. You need to work hard for it or whatever. I kind of have to sometimes fight myself, right? Because I know that I talk things up. And if I actually say that, it's going against my core value of the world that I actually believe in. You know what I'm saying? But I do believe that sometime I, for whatever reason, will manifest my words, negative or positive.

You know what I'm saying? Like in such a strong way. Like I'll be really, really, really afraid to fly and the plane will almost crash. You know what I'm saying? Or I'll say, I wish I could get one of those Netflix deals. You know what I'm saying? I just signed a great deal. And I was like, I wish I could get one of those Netflix deals. And Disney will shelf my episode and give me an opportunity to go get a deal that I didn't think possible.

Or I'll say, I wish I could meet this woman. You know what I'm saying? And I'll go and I'll meet that woman one day. You know what I'm saying? Like something crazy will happen. You know what I'm saying? And that's where I'll, I hope I don't have an ulcer and whatever. I just feel like I really want it to be Spike Lee. You know what I'm saying? I wanted to be the black Judd Apatow. That was actually what I used to say. I was like, I want to be a black Judd Apatow.

And I used to say it and say it, and it kind of started to happen. And it's weird because I'm like, fuck, it's kind of happening. You know what I'm saying? It's crazy. It's almost like you're upset with yourself that your technique works. I'm scared. Like you don't believe in it, but you actually do. I'm scared to talk about it because I feel like I'm so lucky. But also there's something else there and I don't want to like jinx myself. And I'm scared to talk about it.

You know what I'm saying? I'm scared to like, it's like talking to the picture and it's having a no hitter. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm scared to sort of like talk about it because I'm like, what if it's true? What if you are, I guess there, that's one of the, something like, what if my, the greatest, one of my greatest fears is that you're more, you're more powerful than you ever imagined. I don't know who wrote that. You probably do. You probably wrote it or something.

Let me say this another way. I know this guy. I met this guy because our kids go to, or you know, he lives up where I live. He's a finance guy. He's big. He's kind of a little bit awkward, kind of goofy. He's really, really easy not to take seriously. And I knew him for a while. It's just, he's this fun guy. He would like cook dinner at our house. And then I like learned, sort of a year into it, I learned he's this kind of absolutely killer investor who all of like the serious hedge fund guys, they give him their money.

It must make a total fortune. And he's got a little band of guys in Manhattan and no one's ever heard of them and they quietly do their thing. And I feel like with you, so this guy has gone to great lengths to obscure, not consciously, but I think unconsciously, to obscure his, how he got to where he is. I felt like you're, you, and I, listening to you explain, I said, now I'm beginning to understand you do the same thing. And now I'm beginning to understand why you don't want to, in some way, you don't want to sort of jinx it by explaining it.

And I also don't want, I'm, I'm by nature, very shy, you know what I'm saying? And like, I know how to turn it on, you know what I'm saying? Showtime, like, but in general, I keep a really small group of friends, you know what I'm saying? I'm often really shocked when I get burnt by people, because I'm like, don't keep a lot of people around. But I'm also, you know, very shy, which is contrary, like being a Leo, like, you know what I'm saying? I can, I turn over, but I'm like, really just like, I can't quite believe my life, you know what I'm saying?

And some, sometime when I, when you can't quite believe your life, you just kind of, you're a little bit more quiet about it, you know what I'm saying? And like, I'm not one of those kinds of people who like, wants to talk about his accomplishments, or talk about, you know, when we sell things, people are like, go put, you know, but I don't want to, I don't want to put an article out, you know what I'm saying? Until I know what's happening, you know what I'm saying?

Like, people like, there's this culture now, the moment someone sells something, they want to put the thing out that I sold. I'm like, man, you're so many steps before this gets made, you know what I'm saying? And I remember those days when I wanted to do that, you know what I'm saying? I used to push through it. Now I'm like, let it get made, you know what I'm saying? Because all it's going to do is cause jealousy, you know what I'm saying? And jealousy that is not even necessarily needed because you don't even know if it's going to happen or not.

And I do really believe that when you talk too much about your shit, like, I believe in, I'm sorry, like, I believe like negative energy, you know what I'm saying? You get like, I guess it's the haters, but like, don't, I tell my kids, keep your shit private. Because you know what I'm saying? Like, unless you're around your group of people who really, because people's energy is important, you know what I'm saying? And when you get people who start to, whether or not they know it or not, start to have negative energy towards you, it's, I was on this, Joe and Jada, and I'm saying, I love Fat Joe, and they're best, if you want to have somebody on the show, have Fat Joe on.

You guys would be talking about unusual. He is the best storyteller I have ever in my life met. You know what I'm saying? He literally can make any story great. But we were talking about jealousy, and I don't understand jealousy. And I really mean that. I'm not trying to be cavalier. I don't understand it because it's not something I have. And I say this, and it's because I don't think I've ever been jealous of another person in my life. Like in my entire life, I've been envious.

You know what I'm saying? I've been like, oh, I wish I had Ryan Coogler's thing. But jealousy is when you like want something bad from that person. You want them not to have it, or you're angry that they do have it. You know what I'm saying? Well, it's a sense of being wronged, like an injustice, and also a lack mentality. If that person has it, it's a zero-sum kind of notion of the world. My sense is that your protectiveness over what you've built and what you're cultivating or developing to build isn't coming from a place of fear, like, oh, if I talk about it, it's all going to disappear.

It's more a respect for the sacredness of a creative idea, and that these things are delicate. And if you go around mouthing off about it, you need to keep it contained. Once you start kind of spewing about it, you're not really respecting what it is, and it has to be protected. When you told me your story, when you came on our show, you were very open with your story, right? I was like, dude was doing a lot of drugs. But you were open about it. And I was like, I've noticed in guys who did this, and I was like, I don't know if he's going to be offended.

I was like, you kind of transferred one addiction to another, right? And you did exactly like that. I see you're like, but I don't quite look at it like that. You know what I'm saying? You were there was something inside of me. And what I got and what I respected is your ability to be honest with, this was my nadir. I knew I had hit this moment. This is how I had to pull myself out. I still have these moments. And I feel like that honesty and that ability to sort of like, do it without any sort of like bravado.

You know what I'm saying? It didn't make anyone else feel less than or more than. It was just like, this is my story. This is how I did it. Maybe it works for you, maybe it doesn't. You know what I'm saying? To me, that's the better way of sort of like, guide, showing the light, you know what I'm saying? I think it's often how people are like, this is what you should do. And I don't, that doesn't work for me. You know what I'm saying? I think that- It doesn't work for me either.

That's what the internet seems to favor. You know, look right into the camera lens and you know, have a lot of confidence and tell people this is what you should do. I live in the grays. And I think it's really a function of what I've learned in the rooms of recovery. Like you learn, you don't give advice, you share your experience, you know, and you come from a place of humility and gratitude. But the ability to kind of share your low moments is a demonstration that they don't have to hold power over you.

But that's very different from like an aspirational idea. I have an idea for a show or a movie or a documentary. And in order to see it through, like not everybody is privy to that idea, you know? And there's this kind of internet culture of like talking about things before they're real and the kind of dopamine release that that creates that makes you feel like you've already done it. And then you're rewarded for that online when you actually haven't done anything. This episode is brought to you by Whoop.

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Go to join.whoop.com slash roll for one month free of Whoop. The first time I saw an R2 in person, I got it immediately. This is the Rivian that a lot of people are gonna be able to enjoy. Driving it with RJ only confirmed that. All right, so first impressions in my first experience in the R2. Nice, all right, now I'm getting the feel. It feels really tight. It feels nice, right? Yeah, interestingly, like from a first impression point of view, when you see it from a distance, proportionally, it looks very similar to the R1.

You know, like the way that it is designed, it looks kind of integral with the original. It's quite a bit smaller and so when you look at them separately, sometimes people will be like, is that an R1 or an R2? And they have a lot of similarities. But I actually think R2 ended up with a better set of proportions. And it's that kind of thinking that just exists across everything to try to deliver an experience that still feels really Rivian-like, but at a fraction of the cost of R1.

First impressions aside, there's a lot more to the R2 than what you see at first glance. To learn all about the R2, watch the rest of our conversation and book a demo drive at stories.rivian.com slash richroll. Like for people that don't know, like you're not just a guy who created a couple of TV shows, like you've built an empire, you do it all. You write, you show run, you produce, you're doing documentaries, you've got this new Revolt company, you're stepping into the creator economy. Like you are like an entrepreneur, like bar none.

I went to your studio, I saw like what's going on there. Like it is incredibly impressive. What you've built and it's rare air that you occupy. And I think you're right-minded to be protective of that. It's interesting. So I have like that building, $20 million building, right? And I decorated it, you know what I'm saying, with the help of my publicist and friends, like you know what I'm saying, bottom up. And it's like, they were gonna be an architectural digest. I wanted to do it. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna do it.

Architectural digest, I want to do it. And one of the nicest like offices, especially for a person of color, definitely in the city, maybe in the country, in terms of like of an artist, it kills me. You know what I'm saying, it's cost so much. You know what I'm saying? You're beholden to it. It costs so much, you know what I'm saying, like it becomes almost like a tomb if I'm not like producing. And I feel like perception is not reality. You know what I'm saying?

And what happens is I'm still, I have financial issues and things like that that you wouldn't understand. I tell people sometimes I'm like, if I told you what my monthly, I could not live on what most people's dream salary is per year, per month. You know what I'm saying? Like what most people's dream salary is, I could not live on that per month. And they're like, oh, that's amazing. I'm like, it's amazing until you're not making that. You know what I'm saying? And then you have to realize no one's gonna feel sorry for you.

You have a different point of view. You have a different thing. And so it causes, it's a fear because I'm like, I have to produce at such a level. You know what I'm saying? To keep it going. And I thrive off of that, you know what I'm saying? I actually thrive off of sort of back to the wall. You know what I'm saying? And I think the one thing that I have realized is that relationships are everything. You know what I'm saying? And they can get you out of most situations.

But the way that you maintain relationships is through actually being forthright, not fucking people over, you know what I'm saying? And actually producing good material, right? Because there's been times when you're like, I'm like, I'm not on a deal. I'm not selling this. But I'm like, I can get myself out of this. You know what I'm saying? And that's the part that I've learned so I keep my mouth quiet. Because I'm like, I can, because I have not pissed people off because I've been so hubris-ly talked about my things, people will give me other things.

People out of so many different walks of life will, from Malcolm Gladwell to 2 Chainz. You know what I'm saying? Like, well, come and we'll do things. And I feel like. It's the first time I've been in the same sentence as 2 Chainz. Yeah. I'm sorry. Not the last. But I feel like I respect, if I fuck with you, I fuck with you. You know what I'm saying? Like, when we walked out of there, I told Malcolm, I was like, I really like him. And I was like, if I don't, I don't.

I don't care if people, everyone else does. You know what I'm saying? But I feel like I do believe in relationships and I believe in doing good work. And I think that that is the thing that, I think I know how to write pretty well. I think I'm really good at connecting people and finding the story to tell. You know what I'm saying? I think I'm a good pitcher. You know what I'm saying? I think more than anything, I can pitch. Malcolm tells me he sells.

Yeah, I love when he talks to me about his commercials because I'm like, tell me the pitch. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, it's phenomenal. Malcolm's a really good pitcher. And I think the thing that, I kind of learned from when I learned, the most important thing, and you have it too, is the most important thing I think any of us can have is a voice, right? Warren Buffett has a voice as an investor. You know, Basquiat has a voice as a painter. Sessions has a voice as an artist or you have a voice as, everyone has a, and if you find your voice, you can use that voice to talk your way through life.

You know what I'm saying? Whatever situation you're put in, you now know how to filter it through your voice. So I know my voice. That's the one thing I kind of know, is like what my voice is. That's another way of saying that you're operating not only from integrity, but authenticity. And that's interesting in the context of Hollywood, which is populated by, you know, many an imposter. And I don't have to tell you that most producers are ahead of themselves and full of shit and, you know, bullshitting their way until they can get something set up.

And you strike me as very different from that archetype. Like you're a guy who closes, you're about completing the project, getting these stories told. You're not coming from a place of hubris. And I think that's a really valuable lesson because there's this sense that the way to make your way in that town is basically be full of shit. It's prized, you know what I'm saying? That's the thing. When people are actually of integrity, they get caught. You know what I'm saying? Everything that's happened for me, the biggest things, I took a gamble because I wanted to stand for something in front of my kids.

And I thought I was gonna get fired and just lose my job when I did not, when I left Disney because they didn't want to air it. And I love Bye Bye Girl. And also, I mean, is your version of that on some level walking away from the Netflix deal? I took a gamble. You had this like $100 million Netflix deal, right? I took a gamble and we were doing successful. And I was, I don't know, I don't think it was a great gamble you know what I'm saying?

But I take it and I'll take another gamble. At the time, David Nevins and the president of BET came up to me. It was, George Floyd was going on. Black Lives Matter was in full effect. They were trying to re-jigger the corporation. They knew that black things were now selling, that there was a, DEI was in full effect, like, you know. And they were like, look, we can't offer you, you know, you're one of the people we want. We can't offer you the money, quite the money that they can offer you, but we can come close.

But what we can offer you is 50% ownership in a black, in a studio. I was like, wow, no one's ever had that. You know what I'm saying? And there's no way Ted Scandals would tell me no. You know what I'm saying? As much as he had done for me, you know what I'm saying? I still was like, oh my God. But I knew I had this money and I had this place that I was gonna keep making stuff. I had a hit show on. But I was like, I wanna do something for us.

You know what I'm saying? I wanna do something. And I took the gamble. Three weeks later, the guy who signed me was fired. Trump started like just coming in, dismantling DEI. The company started being sold. I couldn't sell for four years. I could not sell anything because they could not sell internally because they were at war within the Redstones and the company. I couldn't sell stuff outside. I was lucky because I could make movies. I was lucky because I could do a podcast. I was lucky because I could do a documentary.

But I couldn't sell anything for four years while I was at the height of my career. The height, I had starred. I had not only created multiple shows, spinoffs, but I was now starring in one that had been picked up for a second season. It was people were talking about it. And I could not, I left it and I couldn't get a show sold because you could not sell outside of this company and the company wasn't set to sell. And I was like, this is a really crazy time.

Pandemic happened, writer's strike happened. My father died from COVID, divorce, you know what I'm saying? And I was like, fuck, all this is going on and it's a duck on water. You know what I'm saying? You got to kind of go smooth but your feet are flapping underneath. And I kind of felt like it was, I think that same sort of thing because I hadn't talked too much. I was like, I had other projects lined up that were, I knew if I could get them across the line, at least I could get onto this.

So I kind of think like that was, and the voice was the important thing. I knew if you came to me with something, I knew how I was gonna approach it. You know what I'm saying? I don't have to rethink. I know sort of my voice, how that's gonna, and that's the biggest thing. If someone gives you a project, you know it's Gladwellian. Like, you know, like the engine goes through, now you know you're gonna have to do the work, but knowing the engine that it's gonna go through makes it a lot easier when you approach, whether, when you have, when an idea comes to you, you know who you are.

And you're like, this sounds on brand for me or this doesn't sound on brand for me. You know what I'm saying? It's the difference between projection and reality. Like hearing you tell that story, you know, on paper you read about you and it's like, everything this guy touches like turns into, you know, something fabulous and he's living this, you know, incredible life, but the day-to-day reality and the conflicts and obstacles that you have to overcome and the tenuousness, you know, of the whole thing is very different from what the normal person might imagine.

My son, it was interesting, right after, my son had some issues with, and he's firing me talking about it because he's, you know, my son had some issues with, young, had some issues with drugs. You know what I'm saying? Had to go and get some treatment. And it was, for me, contemporarily, the biggest, scariest moment for me in my life. You know what I'm saying? Because this is my guy, you know what I'm saying? At like the, he's 15, you know, he's handsome, athletic, funny, dresses well, you know what I'm saying?

Cool, but always kind of been a little bit of a mess up kind of like I was you I'm saying these are my guy and I Started hearing all these things at the same time Number one cause of death in this country for people under 50 overdose Fentanyl fentanyl number one. I was like, well, I cannot be a true thing I was like not car wrecks like this the number one cause of death people under 50. I'm basically 50 I'm saying like then I was like and you know, we When I was growing up you could experiment you I'm saying you could do this one pill and they're gone and I saw him at the worst moment like he was on some shit and we had to go to rehab and like I saw His fortitude and it Restruck in me.

I'm saying like I have to start over to you know saying and so like we kind of did it He came and lived with me and like we kind of did it together I think those moments we talked about having a voice I knew how to take that story from him and like Filter it through my life and like make try like start over for myself, but I think like those moments when you have Nothing matters when you're you're only as happy as your unhappiest kid I'm saying nothing matters when your kids are and nothing so like having that and you're like I have to sort of like No, I got to get him through this expensive this and you pay for this and do that I'm saying like it's you need those things Unfortunately the nap time but you need those are the real things that sort of feel you I'm saying you don't get out of life alive.

It doesn't matter how gilded your cage is, you know life has a way When I hear stories like that, I always think about Phil Stutz, you know, Phil Phil Stutz the therapist in Hollywood There was that documentary with Jonah Hill, yeah, I know you've done stuff with I had him on the show He's had a profound impact on me, but he always says and I've said this before you know, he treats all these like Very successful people like yourself who are also tremendously unhappy like if Hollywood is anything it's populated with the very unhappy successful person and it's like why are these people unhappy and part of it is this Refusal to accept the uncertainty of life Like if you become successful enough you immunize yourself from these kinds of life obstacles You don't need to work on yourself anymore and and and that you know you will arrive at this place of happiness and it doesn't matter how successful you are like life finds a way of Throwing curveballs at you When you hear that Malcolm though, like you're a guy who just does your like you're both incredibly prolific But like you're at the coffee shop eating muffin quietly writing wanting to be left alone keeping your life relatively contained well making Movies and TV shows it's just an infinitely more complicated Creative enterprise than what I do.

I the most complicated I get is a podcast Which is a you know, one 5% of the complexity of yeah and I see I have a one of my best friend is a screenwriter and I I Watch him That business is hard Incredibly, I don't know if I could do it also in terms of uncertainty You know meet the media landscape is just shifting at you know, it's such an incredible rate I mean for a big part of your career Kenya, it's okay it's pilot season like there's a sort of like Established way of doing things and it's been that way for a very long time and now suddenly Everything is up in the air It's a whole different way of doing business some of which is exciting some of which is threatening like what is Back to podcast like now podcasting is visual media.

Like what is a podcast? What is a TV show? What is a limited series versus a comedy that runs for 10 years What is a what is the future of movies like all of these questions are being asked while we're seeing the ascension of the creator? Economy all of these youtubers. We have the success of obsession and back rooms and these young directors who cut their teeth on YouTube and are now like having success and You know in a in a in a cinematic sense The Emmys just happened.

We've got Kareem from Subway takes being nominated for an M You know, it's like wild like it's all becoming one thing like podcasts are becoming television shows and Netflix is doing deals with creators Is that dizzying for you? Is that exciting for you? I mean, I know that you have like stepped into this world in a little bit, you know in a new way What do you make of the shifting tectonic plates of media right now? It was interesting Malcolm when we talked about like, oh, I think the Brands are really interesting.

I'm saying because we all grew up with Brands, we all grew up with the Trix rabbit and I'm saying and where's the beef and the I'm saying like Understanding like how they were a part of our fabric, but now brands are coming into you know, a few years ago Say a lot like on the Oscars I'm saying they had finance all these things and you wouldn't know it unless you do so. I think that that is It is dizzying and you're now realizing like you Very accurately said like it used to be a pilot season.

That's not happening anymore. I'm saying you don't know when there's no There's no fall season. There's no winter season. You don't what's going on. So I do think it's there's no residuals There's no residuals. I'm saying or very little I'm saying and definitely no back-end. I'm saying but I think that Keeping your mind open and seeing like how can like where's the there's always gonna be a need I'm saying and how do you sort of find it? No engine podcast used to be The red-headed freckle stepchild of like I'm saying TV like I'm saying it was kind of like this American life was like cool But like they weren't getting like rich.

I'm saying and now you talk to Kaisa net or these guys and like mr. Beast like, you know, you're looking you're like these guys are flying private everywhere I'm saying Cotton, you know the cottoner comics do their own podcast and they're making on it Joe Rogan like, you know It's like massive amounts of money. I personally feel like it's interesting though Because I feel like now they're opiating success Opiating was opiating us with success. What does that mean? Who are the new young stars right? We're coming up.

We've been watching Eddie Murphy for 45 years You know I'm saying Will Smith was 19 20 years old when he's doing, you know, 21 years old when he did Independence Day, you know We saw Tom Cruise sliding across the thing We watched these guys for 30 40 years like we they've been the same people were watching There's Timothee Chalamet. There's a day I'm saying maybe you can say Jacob already. I'm saying is kind of there but like Really bankable young stars is like there's you know, maybe Tom Holland I'm saying but in general like young people are not like they don't have the relationship with Holly's Hollywood celebrity that we did when when we were their age, it's different their their watch there You know, it's siloed across YouTube.

Everyone has their favorite creators, but there's no monoculture anymore This affects journalism. Yeah, that's also of course and everything is Segmented by smaller subcultures and audiences and it's in there and I think when I say opiate opiate opiating was for success is The guys who would be the Tom Cruises how do you make how do you find them and get them to go put the The reps in that are needed to be on a television show to become great actors to become great comedians When they can go to a podcast and make 15 million dollars a year I'm saying and subsequently that podcast streamer.

Yeah a streamer I'm saying and make 15 I'm saying and then Subsequently that streaming platform then when they decide to go be comics, even if they're not great comics People will still go pay them ten million dollars a year to go stop in places. I'm saying and they and Nestle will give them five million dollars to so, you know Like so now you're looking up at this guy who really might have had the potential to be The next great actor or comic, you know, or whatever They never will become that They will be there will be opiated to a certain they'll get to a certain level and their success will not let them branch out and become that sort of like Hollywood star like that was a really important thing I got a Hollywood star like we don't have a lot of young Hollywood stars Michael B Jordan's 40 something years like he's not young.

He's a great star I'm right, you know saying but like and he worked really hard to get there like when you see these guys now coming up it is really hard to get them to say I Want to put the time in I want to go work on this television show. I want to go to acting class I want to go stand to get to stand up every night and For $10 and some wings, you know saying and become the best comic I can be and really understand my voice and I'm saying I want to go audition for this role like we give Young streamers roles all the time.

They're like how much does this pay? Oh, I can't do that I'm saying cuz you're asking them to lose Seven million dollars. I'm saying to come play be in your movie for three months. I'm saying and like and and I found I feel like that is That has to stop. What what is that auger in your mind for the future? I Think the brands are important part of this I think the brands so back in the day art used to happen in salons right and those salons were protected by scions right who were like letting these artists go and like Bill, you know do what they were do and that's how great art came because they were protected by wealthy benefactors I believe that brands have the ability and have the place to go and say, you know what we want to go and give Shane Gillis, I'm saying X amount of money but we want him to to go do a television show to go do this to go do a movie and He'll he'll be able to we'll still pay him this I'm saying but we want him to You know put him in a situation where he can now grow to become a big star And I think the brands are gonna become more and more aware of that that they can sort of foster You know like P&G used to have like the hour they can build their roster of really big stars that will only help Amplify their brand more if they actually put the work in I think that's gonna be they're gonna be the new scions of of what?

Massive Hollywood success can look like what is your take on that Malcolm? I'm struck by The the rule when the rules of success change the kind of Traits you need to be successful change. So when I started my career at The Washington Post We were all embedded in a very large Stable wealthy institution corporation and All kinds of people could succeed within The Washington Post because there was an umbrella and a safety net and a you know Well it it they gave you a space and you just plugged your story into the space every day When you take away the institution Then the only way you can thrive is is if you're someone who can create that space for yourself You didn't need to be entrepreneurial to be a success in media in the 80s or 90s that someone else to the entrepreneurial stuff for you now.

We're in this period transition But you you have to the trait you need is something that was that never was associated with Writing or You know traditional screenwriter was the least entrepreneurial person in the world They were just a creative person everybody has to speaking of brands everybody has to become their own brand has to come and I mean You did that successfully like, you know the hair and like, you know, like there was a there's a sort of Warholian like, you know way of like Establishing yourself as a persona in the public eye to distinguish yourself from The newsroom at The Washington Post.

Yeah, I mean like you I don't know if you did that consciously, but you did it successfully Well, that was yes It wasn't conscious it was a reaction to the fact that I got a job at The Washington Post it When I was very young and I didn't know I had no newspaper experience whatsoever They probably shouldn't have hired me and my reaction to being in this awkward position was the only way I can thrive here is to be different from everyone like I can't there's no way I can compete with Bob Woodward was 10 feet from me like This I can't do that.

There's no way so I had to yeah do something different. That was the kind of it worked How kind of would so what's in some way? maybe not Performatively intentional, but it was like you saw I need just be me and stand out. Yeah, it's funny I was interviewing somebody who is a CEO of a very very successful Company this woman has been a huge success and she was an athlete growing up and her dad was her coach and She was relating a piece of advice her father gave her and her set her father said to her Don't be don't play the position You want to play play the position the coach wants you to play and as she's saying this I?

Immediately think of my own father what my own father would have said and I thought she was gonna say the opposite Mm-hmm That's what my dad would have said Don't play the position the coach wants you to play the position you want to play and I thought that's what she's gonna say and I was so Astonished that there was that this incredibly successful person had followed this path where you do what the coach says It was just so contrary to everything. I was I didn't think less of her I actually thought more of her in a certain way.

I was like, oh my god. There's another way to do this Well, that's how you succeed within in the system. Yeah, she chose, she's a system. Yeah. And she played team sports. Right. And she played, and I never would play a team sport. No, I mean, you ascended within the system, but also distinguished yourself by being somebody who is kind of outside the system. Yeah. Right? Yeah. In thinking about like the media landscape right now, and you mentioned like benefactors and scions, and how brands are kind of moving in on that terrain in an interesting way, it left me thinking about like the state of all the streamers.

Like I remember when Netflix was relatively new, and it was like a haven for documentary filmmakers. Like all these documentaries were getting platformed, and we were, you know, mainstream audiences were developing an appetite for really interesting storytelling. Lisa. That is no longer the case. And I know you, this is part of your Netflix story as well. It's algorithmically driven now. And what that has done is created like this vanilla middle to everything that we're seeing. But art always finds a way. And I've just been reflecting on the last week of, you know, we're on the other side of like the Venice Film Festival and Telluride.

And there's this like Luca Guadagnino movie about Sam Altman and OpenAI. The trailer just dropped. It's like pretty transgressive and interesting. Why do you think he shot that movie? The Nathan Fielder, Lance Oppenheimer, Elizabeth Holmes documentary teaser dropped. I think it's a, you know, I think there's some real artistic interesting stuff that is happening. The point being that like art finds a way. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like the creative voice and the storytelling and the transgressiveness, all of that always ekes out, especially in times of crisis or constraint.

I mean, Netflix, their evolution makes sense, but it also, they are, and they would probably admit this on some level, sowing the seed for their own eventual irrelevance, right? That you, if- It's the life cycle of any big corporation. It's the life cycle of all of these places that you lose contact with your audience. You lose contact with the creative community and you start producing everything that's vanilla and that just creates an opportunity for someone to move in. You're wearing Nike's, story of Nike, right? I'm wearing Tracksmith.

Tracksmith's opportunity was created by Nike becoming vanilla. And it's like, so it's a kind of, so there's always a, you're right. I think art always finds a way and we're just in this little transition period now and sorting through it. This episode is brought to you by Go Brewing. Fall is beer season. You got your game days, you got your tailgates, you got people gathered in somebody's kitchen. And here's the shift that I really love. At every single one of these gatherings now, somebody isn't drinking, maybe a lot of somebodies.

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On top of that, the intersection of new media into all of this. Like I just, I had Anand Giridharadas here yesterday. He's launching this book, but he's also launching a YouTube series along with it where he's diving into certain aspects of the investigation that's the subject matter of this book to do deeper storytelling around it. M. Night Shyamalan just launched a YouTube channel. Like it's so interesting what's happening, how these worlds are intersecting and congealing to create something brand new. Well, Night's interesting because Night did, Night was one of those people who was set up for this transition, right?

So he was the guy who found a way to be independent, to finance his own movies, made them in Philadelphia, not Los Angeles, or Pennsylvania. And stayed there, never moved to Hollywood. So he was like, when this change happens, he's like perfectly controlled his own material. He is the archetype for how to kind of thrive in the, and a huge basketball fan. Too big to, he almost became, you did a podcast on him. I love Night, I know him a little now. I think he's- It was fascinating.

I think he is the paradigmatic example of how you have a successful career in the arts in 2026. He should have taken my place in The Unusual Suspects, season two. We should do that. Yeah, he would be really, he's very, very charming. And then you're gonna connect me with him so I can get him on my show. Roach Stewart Little. Hmm? Roach Stewart Little. He's very, he will say that the reason he does all his movies in Pennsylvania is that he always wanted to be home for dinner.

Which is just, it's so wonderful. And a charming way to, it's his way, it's his version of Kenya's thing. It's like there's a whole complicated thing below that about it. It's about not being part of the monoculture in LA and having the way you assert control is by staying on another coast. But to frame it in terms of your family obligations is beautiful, I love that. I remember one of the scariest moments in my life, and my brother's cask and I tested this. I had left, I was leaving Disney to go to Netflix.

And you talk about lessons, so I did a cover story for a reporter. And I'm in this incredibly expensive, ripped shreds jean jacket. And I'm doing a cool look into the camera. It's in the desert and it's like, why I left Netflix, you know what I'm saying? I'm why I left, why I left Disney. That was the first one. The next one was why I left Netflix, two different covers, right? The why I left Disney one wasn't as scary because I was leaving for a $100 million deal and I still had a bunch of shows on at Disney.

I was like, I'm set, right? The why I left Netflix one was a little bit scarier. And I'll tell you what happened to make it even more terrifying. I remember the morning, I was, seven o'clock in the morning, I had done the article and I get a call and it's Ted Sarandos. Seven in the morning, wakes me up. I'm like, hello? He's like, really? We're the CBS of TV? You know what I'm saying? He's like, what did I ever do to you but fucking make you rich?

What did I ever do to you but try to like do things? And I'm like, what are you talking about? What are you talking about? I've not seen the article. He's like, I can't believe you put this article. He's like, you fucked me, man. You fucked me. He was like, I never tried to do anything. I was like, I have to, he's like, don't call me back. And I hang up and I'm like, oh my God. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, fucking Bruce Wayne just called me and was like, you know, whatever.

And I called him and I was like, what's going on? She's like, let me get a hold of it. And they took a piece of what I said and I was not saying it like negative. I was like, you know, they were this gunslinging things. I was like, and I came and I was like, but when I got there, I realized that they were become so big that they sort of want, they were become like, they wanted to be CBS, which is the, they realized that they were becoming more CBS and that their success needed to be branched out.

You know what I'm saying? And I wanted to tell different kinds of stories. I wasn't saying it negatively. I was trying to say it just from a contextual place. You know what I'm saying? It was highlighted. You know what I'm saying? All you could hear was like, he was the CBS of thing, whatever. And I, you know, I was sick. I was like, oh my God, you know what I'm saying? So I was like, always been such a good friend to me and really did change my life.

I love him and his wife. And I don't want to have done this. I definitely want to piss this dude off. They control everything. And I caught him, you know, we spoke later. He called me, he's such a nice guy. He was like, look, I understand, man. He was like, I read it with context. He was like, you just got to watch yourself when you're saying these things. And I was like, you know, I was like, I don't, I was like, I can't tell you how much you meant to me and this and that.

And we have definitely, you know, done more business and become, you know. But it was like, you know, is it, yeah, fuck up. And I was talking to a friend of mine, Kevin Misher, who used to run Universal, good looking white guy, you know what I'm saying? And I was like, man, you don't want to fucking be the dude who has that happening. You know what I'm saying? You want to be the dude who has the most probably dude in the world calling you. He was like, can I tell you something?

You don't want to be the dude who doesn't. And I was like, that stuck out to me. He was like, the fact that he called, you're mad, he's like, you want to be in the conference. You're important enough that it would bother him to call you at seven o'clock in the morning. He's like, you want to, he's like, that means it's something you're doing, you know what I'm saying? I love the 7 a.m. flex, by the way. And interest, so the roundabouts where I was driving, I was with my son, who's now living with me, and he's looking, and it's like Little House on the Prairie, Last Airbender, it was like the most high, he's like, Netflix has become the Timu of streamers, right?

And I was like, going back to what he was saying, and I was like, I think he would now agree that exactly what I was saying is exactly what they became. They're not the, you know, Timu of streamers, they're the biggest of streamers, but they may be in some aspects. They are now, they're Walmart, and they service so much of the span that they've lost a little bit of their voice, and I think that what Netflix, if you talk to them, they're now probably going back to doing is refocusing their aperture, you know what I'm saying?

To say like, look, we have to get back to a Netflix voice. You know what I'm saying? So that moment that I started that he called me at 7 a.m., I think that was a little bit of like, maybe he's starting to be right, because they've become, the stock has dropped, you know what I'm saying? That stock was the best stock you could have, and now you're starting to see Apple, Amazon, Paramount Plus. What Taylor Sheridan's doing is nothing short of one of the most amazing runs I've ever seen from a writer, you know, and, but it is like, he has it.

I asked him, he was like, his model is industry and guns. I mean, he's locked in. Locked in. It's just insane how, like, his output is unreal. Unreal. With writing Sicario and Helluva High Water, he has a $2 billion deal waiting for him in 2028. Wow. When he's done with this deal, there's, they have on the hold, on ice, a signed $2 billion deal waiting for him at Universal. So, I just. What is your theory of mind for how he's able to do that? One, I don't know if you've seen him.

He's vascular. He's so vascular. Yeah, he. Yeah. He's very. He's got a presence. I mean, like M. Night, he's not leaving his ranch either. He's not, you know, he's not, like Hollywood's coming to him now. Yes, so he bought, so. But it's sort of like John Wells. Like, how is this guy churning out all these scripts? Focus. You have to honestly lock up. When you get into some grooves, right, where you're like, you know, everything you do is gonna get put up, right? And he's in that groove.

He knows everything he makes is gonna get made. Everything he writes is gonna get made. He's taking it really seriously. I think the idea of like, it's the dude who works out. You know what I'm saying? He was an acting coach. He's a fit, super family guy. You know what I'm saying? Really smart business guy. He has business people around him. Well, he owns this ranch, and then he rents it back to the studios for rents of production. And so he's profiting in multiple ways. I mean, sure, yeah.

Without the shows, he'd be profitable. The ranch is almost the size of San Antonio. Two Chicago's could fit inside the four sixes ranch. He shoots 80% of his shows there. You know what I'm saying? From the hangers to law man, land man, lioness, the Stallone show, there's a scene where I've heard that like, the cattle, they'll freeze frame this, and they'll circle all the cattle, and they'll charge it back as extras. Because it's a working ranch. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's brilliant, and they paid for it.

He's planted his flag in many ways. You have done the same. You've built this enterprise that is premised on elevating the diversity of voices, black voices. You've influenced people. Like, I know Ava DuVernay a little bit. Like, she's doing a version of that herself. And it is a way of working with, but also outside the traditional studio system in order to get these projects made and these voices heard. What is the future of all of this look like? I don't know. Me and Malcolm have talked about some things.

I really do believe brand, I really go back to that in some aspects. I do think that we're gonna go back to that old 50s way. Remember when you used to have like, you know, Dove soap presents the second such hour you're saying I do think that They are going to be a major you're seeing family offices and brands right family offices are now getting into content. I'm saying. Oh, yeah They're getting into sports. I'm saying I think that you're gonna see did you see founders fund Funded that mafia series on YouTube with all the Silicon Valley people.

Did you see that? No, like limited series that hit I think in the context of brand Ascension in this equation that means that You don't have to go to Disney or Netflix or CBS. You're doing it on YouTube. I Think this is that's the future. I'm someone like yourself The fourth or fifth biggest company in the world They could easily they're bigger than all the companies were going to pitch the show to They can easily just do the show right they don't want to do the show they want to be in it but Received as like not like they just bought their way in.

I'm saying and they're very it's there it's a really interesting and Specified way and it's the way their marketing works I'm saying and I think they're using that saying and I think in success that will be really Though they'll benefit a lot from that I'm saying from not sort of like just buying in and they're like Their marketing works off of like a legacy and people, you know true desire and I kind of think you know when you look at I'm doing some stuff with my judge and you know, Greg Daniels and they have one of the shows I really love you guys haven't seen it.

It's Carter. It's either caught uncommon or common side effects it's about Big Pharma see animated and It is the best thing that's on television right now, it's a guy finds a mushroom Who's like a stone or type right that that can basically cure anything and he becomes an enemy number one to America and to Big Pharma and it's like there was a shit and it's like it but it's going into how we look at like how Would we want a drug that could cure everything? You know saying wouldn't that how dangerous would that guy be but they went and they did it themselves No one bought it You would think after beaver some butthead and all this my judge and Greg Daniels in office that everyone bought it.

They went in Made it themselves and then saw this adults one because people just weren't getting what it was and now that's their model They go. I really believe in YouTube. I'm saying I really believe that that you know YouTube is bigger than I have all those other brands combined I'm saying they don't talk about it enough, you know saying but like they're bigger than everyone So I do think the digital Platform, you know if you're able to Find a way to run that through the machine You know, I think that's the thing that they still have is the machine Malcolm you've always been a print and audio guy How does this new media landscape land for you in terms of how you think about your future projects?

Are you just locked in on your way of doing things? Are you adaptable? I'm adaptable. I mean, I don't I don't approach the question that way I mean you think about brands similarly to the way that Kenya does I think I do think I Think about it in terms of the project so I Think I told you that I had I convinced Lance Armstrong to come to Hudson for a week. And So that's an example of a I have a bunch of projects like that where it's dictated by What you want to do?

So what's the story so you ask yourself sit with some medium for that story? What's what's the story you want to tell how do we want to tell it? What do I is it just audio does it make sense do this? I'm open to video but when video makes sense if something's being if if there is something meaningful being added to the experience of doing it that way then absolutely, but I know I I'm it's Absent a real reason to do it. I I wouldn't reflexively do it just because it adds complexity to my life What is the message to the young aspiring?

writer creator creative Given the Rapidly evolving media landscape and the kind of uncertainty about how do you approach a career path? Goes back to what Kenny was saying about having a voice But I think in the kind of new rules It really does matter whether there is something distinctive about What you're saying and doing? and That so that that would be one the other piece would be That I think people you have to know something Like how dare you? You know like you tell that Kai Sinat like these guys You know, I always have people who want to go into journalism.

The last thing you should do is go to journalism school That's not what you need. You don't need to learn the craft The craft can be should be learned on you can learn any number of places. What you need is You didn't we need to figure out what you want to what what you want to learn what you want to know about and what You want to tell people about? Go to another part of the university, you know I don't or go out into the world and learn that thing But having a having a voice and having a subject are the things that I would tell people What do you said a young young creatives?

Have something to say I'm saying I think so often people are like They want to like come with these super high concept things and like that are really cool But I'm like, what is that? What do you have to say through that thing? You know saying it's a cool idea You know I'm saying but what were you trying to say through that thing? You know saying and I feel like how the difference between back rooms and obsession right using those two models that kid who did obsession I Had been making comedy sketches and you know things and then he did this the chair thing He had something he wanted to say he's he's commenting on Our current culture one is in a subtle way.

Yeah through that story Like and he's also like sort of almost trolling I'm saying and it really paid off, you know in a monstrous way and I feel like That's a kid I would be looking at because he has something to say Ryan Coogler Always has something to say I'm saying and he does it also, you know off also with the expertise of a Savant level Autor, I'm saying like the idea of you know, you hear him and he's everything's purposeful You know, he came on with corn rolls He has a Bay Area accent I'm saying Dean Daley who ran us.

He was like, he's one of my favorite student ever because he was very aware He's an ex-athlete. So he's disciplined. I'm saying He came on and he did a had a decade. I cheeky on with like Bay Area accent corn rolls and he does and does this viral meme About film formats. I know I remember that and it was brilliant because he wasn't trying to Be someone else, you know saying he wasn't trying to do didn't shut doesn't change the way he speaks He doesn't change, you know, he goes in his own Perfectly suited authentic self way and explains film Formats in a way that I've never heard it explained.

It was brilliant and so many people I Saw some of me our friends particularly white friends who are like But this guy I keep saying like they didn't want to say it I'm saying but they were like This isn't what I expected. I'm saying and and he knew that he was very He knew that like he was gonna get that response and it actually drew more people To him and to him what he was saying and I was like just have something to say to me that video that he made Was a way of informing people You think you know something about like What goes into making a project like this because people are like I could write that or I could write it's like no no, no, no, no, like you really don't and he's establishing not only like his skill as a filmmaker and his knowledge of You know camera lenses and formats and all that sort of thing.

But also his incredibly astute sense for Understanding what audiences want in high concept material and using that as a vehicle to Share a message like his personal point of view You know wrapped up in this kind of Trojan horse of a you know, like a superhero movie for example And he's unlocked something incredibly powerful with that. Like, you know, he's I can't wait to see what he continues to make a subversive rotations I'm saying yeah, and there's something really powerful when you subvert expectation You don't feel like this is the person who's going to say that it makes you listen even Closer, you know saying when you hear that you're like, oh my god Like I I didn't know this about film but definitely didn't think this person was gonna tell it to me And so you even listen a little bit closer, right?

like this is the last guy that I thought would be the most articulate on this very Weird subject when Baldwin went to you know, the UK and he did those debates. He knew what he was doing He knew that he was gonna go and be fish out of water stick out subvert you know saying and tore them up and it wasn't just the fact that he you know, it was the fact that he was Doing it from a place of like you're not gonna expect this I'm saying like it was It was showmanship was PT Barnum.

I'm saying like he could have Went here and went up against some people who was sort of like we went to a place that doesn't doesn't have They didn't perpetrate Slavery here there. You know saying went back to a country that maybe they might have started colonialism, but like He ate them up and he did it in his own way and it made it That was a moment history that you will I can watch over and over and over and over again And then what is your version of that how you channel that into your work?

I'm trying to do I'm doing Truman show I'm doing show over it. Mm-hmm and Like a reimagination of that the reimagination of the Truman Show and in my Truman show that's ballsy Because that was a very successful movie it was a race And to have the IP that was protected like how do you pull the sword from the stone from that? Way in my version of the Truman Show It's an alternate reality in that slavery in 1619 they turned the boats away the u.s. Turned the boats away.

And so it never actually happened and So sliding doors for all mankind kind of the Truman show Jamal Truman Lives in the hood the hood is a designed Version by this producer and it's almost a cautionary tale and people watch it Everyone's like could you imagine living like Jamal Truman? And if you grow up in the hood, you often feel like this can't be real I'm saying like half so it kind of takes in subverts that and People are at home, you know, why people are braiding black people's hair watching the biggest show on TV.

They've watched this kid grow up But he gets out Something happens and he gets out of the Truman show in the first act and so we're and so it then gets into the idea of like what would have you know what this looks at and I feel like so I say this to say like it kind of Coagulates all the stuff I really feel like I live I'm saying that I really want to say of like Getting around people's expectations. What is real? What is not I'm saying?

Are you on the Truman show? Are we all a part of it? I'm saying how many times have we looked up and you know, idiocracy could not be more It's there's no version of my you know saying like, you know, it is There's a literally a wrestling match on the White House lawn You know saying like that, you know, wait, and so I feel like sometime Art imitates life in a really interesting way. And and if you can sort of use that I Don't know if you were part of it I guess but like they used to have like what the government would come and say Get writers together and they would give you scenarios and they'd say if you were a terrorist how would you do this and you get with a group of other writers and you kind of spend all day and you give your You know version of how you would pull it off and having no knowledge of how the war works But they're like the idea of sometimes that we think about I'm saying far Go beyond what I think sort of any planning can do.

I'm saying and I kind of think that that's what I will love to do was sort of like take this stuff that I felt like I Think about in a really interesting way and how do you sort of talk about it relationships? I love to talk about relationships I love to talk about Monogamy and relationships, I'm saying look it's such a Judeo-christian sort of Trope that we took that seems to sort of be failing us but we like we pump ourself up when we sort of stick to it, right and it's like Well, why is it so hard?

I'm saying and then when you don't have you like I wish I could just be my wish I could just have this one You know, there's this thing I'm saying like marriage 56% of marriages think 55% of marriages ended in divorce yet and still you invite all your friends and family to your wedding and spend all this money if 55% of the time a car blew up when it drove off the Lane, would you tell all your friends and family to come watch you drive the car off the off the lot?

I'm saying like it's there's all these things that we do that. We're not really like Looking into I'm saying I love this for her tell those type of stories. Mm-hmm what is the impetus for this podcast series Unusual says like what it what? Animated you about doing this and what are you hoping to explore? That's different than what you do in your respective day job roles. Well, it's, you know, the interesting thing to me was that we're drawing a lot of these people from our respective worlds.

And so it's a chance to kind of eavesdrop on another world. And so some of the guests come from Kenya's circle and they're not people I would otherwise ever have a chance to sit down with. And I think he would say the same of guests that come from my circle. And I think the, we are trying to get beyond the, there's a very kind of tight definition of what a guest is on chat shows, always has been going back to Tonight Show and, you know, beyond.

And we're just trying to push the envelope in that a little bit and give other people a voice. And I think that's, we've been, I think that's part of what makes the show as fun as it is. As a little bit of a distinctive, it's an expression of our interest in difference. I agree. I think we're looking at the sort of shared humanity that each of our guests finding that thing, that there's a shared humanity that we all have. You know what I'm saying? There's something that sort of, we used to like talk about, like, tell me about your mom.

That was a modern question, you know what I'm saying? But there's something that sort of like drives these guys interesting. There's a shared humanity to them. And what makes them, you know, the thing that other people couldn't quite, haven't quite done, you know what I'm saying? What makes them sort of, what drives them in a successful place. And I think that's always an interesting conversation. Everyone wants to know, like, what's the secret sauce? You know what I'm saying? Is it French dressing? You know what I'm saying?

Like, what is it? And I kind of feel like, the best shows for me are the ones when I learn something. And I think I always learn something walking out of those. I mean, you get to do that. Hopefully you feel like your audience can get something from it too. What is your sense of the state of podcasting and where podcasting is headed? Like, I've been doing this for 14 years. You've been doing it for a long time. You have Pushkin, you have a business in this.

You've done other podcasts as well, Kenya. You did another one with Audible. In the early days, it's very hobbyist. Not a lot of people paying attention to it. Sort of a weird, kind of almost embarrassing form of media. Now it's become this incredibly powerful mainstream form of media, where video has become almost essential to the success of a show, particularly any kind of new show. And there also is a sense of audience saturation with this. Now just your social media feed is like people talking into microphones.

And maybe we've had enough of that while also understanding that two people talking to each other is never gonna go out of style, and we crave that, and we have an appetite for authenticity and the exchange of ideas. But it feels like we're at this inflection point in terms of where this is headed and what the future of this medium looks like. I don't have any crystal ball about where it's headed. I am interested in the idea of whether it can be integrated with other media forms.

So when I think about writing a book, for example, I never think about writing a book without also thinking about the role that my podcast can play in that. I mean, you've really up-leveled what an audio book can be. Like that is a huge contribution to society that you have made, like rethinking that format. And that, yeah, I made a, so audio books became narrative podcasts in my just extended narrative podcast. And then I've also been using, the bigger thing that I strongly believe is that historically, magazine articles were the training ground for book ideas.

If you look at the best seller list in 1975, I'm gonna guess that 2 3rds of the nonfiction books on that list began their life as a magazine article. That world has gone away because magazines don't really play any meaningful function in the culture. But podcasts can serve the same function. And now what I find is, what I'm doing with my podcast is I am trying out ideas and stories and then picking the ones that work and turning them into books. So viewed that way, the podcast doesn't have to stand on its own as an economic entity.

It's the minor leagues. And you can, I don't mean that in a dismissive way, but it is a place where I have a warm, loyal audience and they're willing to try stuff out with me and I can assess what works and what doesn't and then take those stories and elevate them in some other form, in downstream form. It's a spoke on a many-spoked wheel. Yeah, I think that, and I think that it will, if you think about the magazine world analogy, then a lot of podcasting starts to make sense, or at least the kind of narrative form of it.

But even the non-narrative form, we're constantly testing and evaluating talent, ideas, stories that we can repurpose in some other form. You have any thoughts on that, Kenya? I think that the future of it is, for me, is congealing all the things that Malcolm just talked to into, like, how do you now race? Because what you said, it was just audio. They're basically now video. You know what I'm saying? Racing on shows. So now, knowing that there's an evolution, getting ahead of what's the next evolution. You know what I'm saying?

Like it is, sets are becoming better. Graphics are becoming better. You know what I'm saying? How do you sort of do that and not lose that sort of, the magic of it? And I kind of think that's where I would love to sort of, because he just talked about magazines. I really want to bring back magazines. And I think that the way to do it is maybe through a podcast format, you know what I'm saying? Because I would love to go get GQ, or you know what I'm saying, this and just look through and see what's going on or whatever.

It was such a pure form of writing. You know what I'm saying? And I kind of feel like that's what podcasts are. You know what I'm saying? It's a lot more, you get really, it's a lot purer form of communication. So if you're able to do it at a rate fast enough and keep people in it, I think that there's something in that. Awesome. Well, it's been awesome to hang out with you guys. The Unusual Suspects, an Audible original podcast, premiering September 10th. It will be up by the time this goes out.

I loved being a guest on your show. I'm delighted by both of you guys. I'm inspired by your creativity and your, and just the contribution that both of you have made to culture and society. It's really inspiring. So I appreciate you spending the time with me today. Thanks you guys. Bye.

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