The Invisible Trap: Evidence You're Living the Wrong Life (& Don't Know It) | Professor C Thi Nguyen

Your new book, The Score, Your new book, The Score, >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> is probably one of my favorite books >> is probably one of my favorite books >> is probably one of my favorite books that I've read for years. It is so, so that I've read for years. It is so, so that I've read for years. It is so, so thought-provoking. thought-provoking. thought-provoking. One of the One of the One of the central cases you make in the book is central cases you make in the book is central cases you make in the book is that many of us experience problems in that many of us experience problems in that many of us experience problems in our lives our lives our lives because we're living by someone else's because we're living by someone else's because we're living by someone else's scorecard instead of our own. scorecard instead of our own. scorecard instead of our own. You call this value capture in the book. You call this value capture in the book. You call this value capture in the book. So, I'm wondering if we could start So, I'm wondering if we could start So, I'm wondering if we could start there. Can you explain what it is? there. Can you explain what it is? there. Can you explain what it is? >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So, value capture is any case where your >> So, value capture is any case where your >> So, value capture is any case where your values are rich or subtle or they're values are rich or subtle or they're values are rich or subtle or they're developing in that direction and developing in that direction and developing in that direction and then you get put in a social setting or then you get put in a social setting or then you get put in a social setting or an institutional setting or with a an institutional setting or with a an institutional setting or with a technology that presents you with a technology that presents you with a technology that presents you with a simplified, usually quantified, version simplified, usually quantified, version simplified, usually quantified, version of your value and then the simplified of your value and then the simplified of your value and then the simplified version takes over. So, like, I mean, version takes over. So, like, I mean, version takes over. So, like, I mean, I I I went on Twitter to connect to people and went on Twitter to connect to people and went on Twitter to connect to people and to find interesting information and to to find interesting information and to to find interesting information and to like have these fascinating like have these fascinating like have these fascinating conversations with people and that conversations with people and that conversations with people and that started happening and then I went viral, started happening and then I went viral, started happening and then I went viral, like, low-grade viral twice and then I like, low-grade viral twice and then I like, low-grade viral twice and then I became just interested in upping my like became just interested in upping my like became just interested in upping my like counts and follower counts and that counts and follower counts and that counts and follower counts and that became the became the became the kind of dominant core reasoning. I mean, kind of dominant core reasoning. I mean, kind of dominant core reasoning. I mean, I think a lot of people know that I think a lot of people know that I think a lot of people know that it's not good when your incentives are it's not good when your incentives are it's not good when your incentives are too simplified where like the world is too simplified where like the world is too simplified where like the world is giving you money [snorts] or rewards to giving you money [snorts] or rewards to giving you money [snorts] or rewards to follow some kind of hyper-simplified follow some kind of hyper-simplified follow some kind of hyper-simplified metric, but I think the thing I'm really metric, but I think the thing I'm really metric, but I think the thing I'm really interested in is the next stage of when interested in is the next stage of when interested in is the next stage of when that that that transfers to your soul. Like, when the transfers to your soul. Like, when the transfers to your soul. Like, when the thing that you care about most becomes thing that you care about most becomes thing that you care about most becomes uh when your deepest value becomes uh when your deepest value becomes uh when your deepest value becomes expressed expressed expressed in terms of the metric because then I in terms of the metric because then I in terms of the metric because then I think you inherit uh think you inherit uh think you inherit uh the the the limitations limitations limitations of institutional data tracking, right? of institutional data tracking, right? of institutional data tracking, right? Every limit we have about the kinds of Every limit we have about the kinds of Every limit we have about the kinds of numbers that are easy to collect in numbers that are easy to collect in numbers that are easy to collect in large-scale bureaucracies suddenly large-scale bureaucracies suddenly large-scale bureaucracies suddenly starts to inhabit your way of thinking starts to inhabit your way of thinking starts to inhabit your way of thinking about the world, about navigating your about the world, about navigating your about the world, about navigating your own life. own life. own life. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There's this thing you talk about There's this thing you talk about There's this thing you talk about throughout the book, this idea that throughout the book, this idea that throughout the book, this idea that data is not neutral. data is not neutral. data is not neutral. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The metrics themselves are not neutral. >> The metrics themselves are not neutral. >> The metrics themselves are not neutral. And where I've been thinking about this And where I've been thinking about this And where I've been thinking about this a lot is particularly because as we a lot is particularly because as we a lot is particularly because as we record this conversation, the Winter record this conversation, the Winter record this conversation, the Winter Olympics are going on. Olympics are going on. Olympics are going on. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> So, yesterday evening with my kids, I >> So, yesterday evening with my kids, I >> So, yesterday evening with my kids, I was watching the snowboarding. was watching the snowboarding. was watching the snowboarding. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And >> And >> And it was the women's snowboarding final. it was the women's snowboarding final. it was the women's snowboarding final. The standard was off the charts, but The standard was off the charts, but The standard was off the charts, but what was really, really interesting what was really, really interesting what was really, really interesting is they're doing all these kinds of is they're doing all these kinds of is they're doing all these kinds of tricks, and I'm thinking, well, how can tricks, and I'm thinking, well, how can tricks, and I'm thinking, well, how can you compare you compare you compare one snowboarder with another one snowboarder with another one snowboarder with another snowboarder? You can, and of course snowboarder? You can, and of course snowboarder? You can, and of course they've got certain metrics which they've got certain metrics which they've got certain metrics which they're using, they're using, they're using, but it doesn't necessarily reflect the but it doesn't necessarily reflect the but it doesn't necessarily reflect the totality of that person's totality of that person's totality of that person's skill or their flow or their skill or their flow or their skill or their flow or their interpretation of the slope. Do you know interpretation of the slope. Do you know interpretation of the slope. Do you know what I mean? what I mean? what I mean? >> Yes. Exactly what you mean. And I think >> Yes. Exactly what you mean. And I think >> Yes. Exactly what you mean. And I think what's going on is what's going on is what's going on is that in many cases, the drive for that in many cases, the drive for that in many cases, the drive for objectivity, and I mean something like objectivity, and I mean something like objectivity, and I mean something like really specific by objectivity. We have really specific by objectivity. We have really specific by objectivity. We have to spend like a lot of time talking to spend like a lot of time talking to spend like a lot of time talking talking about that term means cuz a lot talking about that term means cuz a lot talking about that term means cuz a lot of people use that term kind of of people use that term kind of of people use that term kind of unreflectively or unthinkingly. I think unreflectively or unthinkingly. I think unreflectively or unthinkingly. I think the drive for objectivity often gets us the drive for objectivity often gets us the drive for objectivity often gets us to to to change the topic, to change the topic of change the topic, to change the topic of change the topic, to change the topic of what we're measuring and what we're what we're measuring and what we're what we're measuring and what we're trying to do. So, I think sporting trying to do. So, I think sporting trying to do. So, I think sporting competitions are really good place to competitions are really good place to competitions are really good place to think about this. So, for me, one of the think about this. So, for me, one of the think about this. So, for me, one of the crucial things about a scoring system is crucial things about a scoring system is crucial things about a scoring system is that it makes explicit the standards that it makes explicit the standards that it makes explicit the standards that you're going to measure success by. that you're going to measure success by. that you're going to measure success by. And the reason it does so is often to And the reason it does so is often to And the reason it does so is often to get people onto the same page. So, uh I get people onto the same page. So, uh I get people onto the same page. So, uh I started realizing this. So, I I the started realizing this. So, I I the started realizing this. So, I I the first book I wrote about games, I had first book I wrote about games, I had first book I wrote about games, I had this assumption, this assumption, this assumption, um um um and that assumption was that every game and that assumption was that every game and that assumption was that every game had a scoring system. had a scoring system. had a scoring system. And And And I got there because I think So, I love a I got there because I think So, I love a I got there because I think So, I love a lot of games, but I particularly love lot of games, but I particularly love lot of games, but I particularly love board games. And then when I was working board games. And then when I was working board games. And then when I was working on my first book on the nature of games, on my first book on the nature of games, on my first book on the nature of games, my primary model was a certain kind of my primary model was a certain kind of my primary model was a certain kind of board game. And in board games, board board game. And in board games, board board game. And in board games, board games tell you exactly what's going to games tell you exactly what's going to games tell you exactly what's going to count as points. They're going to like count as points. They're going to like count as points. They're going to like the board games I play, like they say the board games I play, like they say the board games I play, like they say like, you know, collect cows, that's like, you know, collect cows, that's like, you know, collect cows, that's worth two points. Collect sheep, each worth two points. Collect sheep, each worth two points. Collect sheep, each three sheep is worth three points. So, three sheep is worth three points. So, three sheep is worth three points. So, you know exactly what they'll measure you know exactly what they'll measure you know exactly what they'll measure and you know how to add them up and you know how to add them up and you know how to add them up together. And then I realized at some together. And then I realized at some together. And then I realized at some point that not every game has this kind point that not every game has this kind point that not every game has this kind of official scoring system. Um So, of official scoring system. Um So, of official scoring system. Um So, skateboarding in its natural state is skateboarding in its natural state is skateboarding in its natural state is from I need to not be a poser here. I am from I need to not be a poser here. I am from I need to not be a poser here. I am not a skateboarder. I do a bunch of not a skateboarder. I do a bunch of not a skateboarder. I do a bunch of other things. I climb, I play with other things. I climb, I play with other things. I climb, I play with yo-yos, I don't skateboard. This is all yo-yos, I don't skateboard. This is all yo-yos, I don't skateboard. This is all secondhand knowledge. Um secondhand knowledge. Um secondhand knowledge. Um Skateboarding, there are a lot of Skateboarding, there are a lot of Skateboarding, there are a lot of goals and success conditions in goals and success conditions in goals and success conditions in skateboarding. You can skate to be skateboarding. You can skate to be skateboarding. You can skate to be athletic explosive, you can do athletic explosive, you can do athletic explosive, you can do incredibly hard tricks. Or you can skate incredibly hard tricks. Or you can skate incredibly hard tricks. Or you can skate for flow, you can skate for style, you for flow, you can skate for style, you for flow, you can skate for style, you can skate for expressiveness. And if can skate for expressiveness. And if can skate for expressiveness. And if you're going to the skate park and you're going to the skate park and you're going to the skate park and competing, you can compete in lots of competing, you can compete in lots of competing, you can compete in lots of those dimensions. You can go with your those dimensions. You can go with your those dimensions. You can go with your friends, you can go skating, and you can friends, you can go skating, and you can friends, you can go skating, and you can be be be You can do it in two ways. One, you can You can do it in two ways. One, you can You can do it in two ways. One, you can just go skating and not have a just go skating and not have a just go skating and not have a pre-specified goal and just do stuff, pre-specified goal and just do stuff, pre-specified goal and just do stuff, and it might just emerge that some of and it might just emerge that some of and it might just emerge that some of you are more stylish or cool or you are more stylish or cool or you are more stylish or cool or beautiful or explosive. Or you can even beautiful or explosive. Or you can even beautiful or explosive. Or you can even decide, you can decide that we're going decide, you can decide that we're going decide, you can decide that we're going to compete for the coolest trick. to compete for the coolest trick. to compete for the coolest trick. But you don't need to specify exactly But you don't need to specify exactly But you don't need to specify exactly the way that you're going to measure the way that you're going to measure the way that you're going to measure cool. And cool. And cool. And you can have different people like if 10 you can have different people like if 10 you can have different people like if 10 people go skating together and they come people go skating together and they come people go skating together and they come out with different beliefs about who did out with different beliefs about who did out with different beliefs about who did the best job. Like I think you were the the best job. Like I think you were the the best job. Like I think you were the most flowing and elegant. And somebody most flowing and elegant. And somebody most flowing and elegant. And somebody else thinks that it was me. I was the else thinks that it was me. I was the else thinks that it was me. I was the one that like did something really one that like did something really one that like did something really surprising and original. That's okay. surprising and original. That's okay. surprising and original. That's okay. Like you don't There's no loss of value Like you don't There's no loss of value Like you don't There's no loss of value in that. What that's That's the thing in that. What that's That's the thing in that. What that's That's the thing that we did the thing that wanted to do. that we did the thing that wanted to do. that we did the thing that wanted to do. Um Um Um but then skateboarding moves to uh more but then skateboarding moves to uh more but then skateboarding moves to uh more official cases like ESPN X and the official cases like ESPN X and the official cases like ESPN X and the Olympics. And Olympics. And Olympics. And you start to generate this need to you start to generate this need to you start to generate this need to generate a single official verdict to generate a single official verdict to generate a single official verdict to pull out a winner. And what happens then pull out a winner. And what happens then pull out a winner. And what happens then usually is that usually is that usually is that the activity changes focus. So, focus the activity changes focus. So, focus the activity changes focus. So, focus moves away from like style or flow or moves away from like style or flow or moves away from like style or flow or beauty and focus moves towards beauty and focus moves towards beauty and focus moves towards height, number of flips, right? Things height, number of flips, right? Things height, number of flips, right? Things that are more easily countable. And that that are more easily countable. And that that are more easily countable. And that kind of shift I think is emblematic of kind of shift I think is emblematic of kind of shift I think is emblematic of an entire an entire an entire uh social tendency that I think we're uh social tendency that I think we're uh social tendency that I think we're all caught up all caught up all caught up in the grips of. Oh my god. Do you want in the grips of. Oh my god. Do you want in the grips of. Oh my god. Do you want to know the to know the to know the the weird example that got cut from the the weird example that got cut from the the weird example that got cut from the book? book? book? >> Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. Okay. >> I want to see. >> I want to see. >> I want to see. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh this is an example I'm obsessed with and this is an example I'm obsessed with and this is an example I'm obsessed with and uh uh uh some members of my publishing team some members of my publishing team some members of my publishing team thought it was too weird to put in the thought it was too weird to put in the thought it was too weird to put in the book and I cut it out, but you know, I I book and I cut it out, but you know, I I book and I cut it out, but you know, I I think about it all the time. So, um think about it all the time. So, um think about it all the time. So, um >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Think about this. Um >> Think about this. Um >> Think about this. Um while I was reading and I was while I was reading and I was while I was reading and I was researching this book, researching this book, researching this book, I stumbled across the literature from a I stumbled across the literature from a I stumbled across the literature from a bunch of anthropologists and bunch of anthropologists and bunch of anthropologists and sociologists that studied pickup artist sociologists that studied pickup artist sociologists that studied pickup artist culture. culture. culture. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So, you know pickup artists? People that >> So, you know pickup artists? People that >> So, you know pickup artists? People that compete for sexual success. And I think compete for sexual success. And I think compete for sexual success. And I think it's kind of it's kind of it's kind of it's kind of it's kind of it's kind of obvious in a sense cuz even the pickup obvious in a sense cuz even the pickup obvious in a sense cuz even the pickup artist culture term for artist culture term for artist culture term for a sexual encounter is scoring, right? a sexual encounter is scoring, right? a sexual encounter is scoring, right? And if you think about what they're And if you think about what they're And if you think about what they're competing for, competing for, competing for, number of phone numbers you get in a number of phone numbers you get in a number of phone numbers you get in a night, number of sexual encounters in a night, number of sexual encounters in a night, number of sexual encounters in a night, number uh speed, the fastest night, number uh speed, the fastest night, number uh speed, the fastest speed from meeting someone to a sexual speed from meeting someone to a sexual speed from meeting someone to a sexual encounter. encounter. encounter. And then it becomes like kind of clear And then it becomes like kind of clear And then it becomes like kind of clear like what they don't compete for. like what they don't compete for. like what they don't compete for. They're not competing for They're not competing for They're not competing for happy relationships. I think that's happy relationships. I think that's happy relationships. I think that's pretty obvious. But uh one of the things pretty obvious. But uh one of the things pretty obvious. But uh one of the things I discovered when I was reading this I discovered when I was reading this I discovered when I was reading this stuff, the sociologist Eric Hendricks stuff, the sociologist Eric Hendricks stuff, the sociologist Eric Hendricks who studied pickup artist culture for a who studied pickup artist culture for a who studied pickup artist culture for a while, said pickup artists while, said pickup artists while, said pickup artists don't even compete for pleasure. They're don't even compete for pleasure. They're don't even compete for pleasure. They're not even trying for pleasure. Um, not even trying for pleasure. Um, not even trying for pleasure. Um, one of the things that you find as a one of the things that you find as a one of the things that you find as a common thread in pickup artist culture common thread in pickup artist culture common thread in pickup artist culture is that you're supposed to get beyond is that you're supposed to get beyond is that you're supposed to get beyond caring about pleasure cuz that will caring about pleasure cuz that will caring about pleasure cuz that will interfere in your quest for higher interfere in your quest for higher interfere in your quest for higher numbers and more victory. numbers and more victory. numbers and more victory. And I find this like And I find this like And I find this like incredibly emblematic and incredibly incredibly emblematic and incredibly incredibly emblematic and incredibly tragic because tragic because tragic because I mean, I mean, I mean, I thought when I started reading about I thought when I started reading about I thought when I started reading about pickup artist culture that I would find pickup artist culture that I would find pickup artist culture that I would find out that pickup artists out that pickup artists out that pickup artists were evil and manipulative, but at least were evil and manipulative, but at least were evil and manipulative, but at least they were having fun and enjoying they were having fun and enjoying they were having fun and enjoying themselves. And I found out something themselves. And I found out something themselves. And I found out something else, which is else, which is else, which is they're not even enjoying themselves. they're not even enjoying themselves. they're not even enjoying themselves. They're miserable. Many of them are They're miserable. Many of them are They're miserable. Many of them are miserable in the quest for higher miserable in the quest for higher miserable in the quest for higher scores. And I think the examples are scores. And I think the examples are scores. And I think the examples are really revealing because really revealing because really revealing because what what what Why would you not compete for pleasure? Why would you not compete for pleasure? Why would you not compete for pleasure? It's cuz pleasure is not publicly It's cuz pleasure is not publicly It's cuz pleasure is not publicly countable. Like there's no way to verify countable. Like there's no way to verify countable. Like there's no way to verify who had more pleasure. You make the who had more pleasure. You make the who had more pleasure. You make the claim, right? The things that claim, right? The things that claim, right? The things that that um, pickup artists are competing that um, pickup artists are competing that um, pickup artists are competing for are precisely the things that are for are precisely the things that are for are precisely the things that are easy for everyone to objectively measure easy for everyone to objectively measure easy for everyone to objectively measure in the public setting and then in the public setting and then in the public setting and then adjudicate in an unquestionable way. adjudicate in an unquestionable way. adjudicate in an unquestionable way. >> I think it's a great example because the >> I think it's a great example because the >> I think it's a great example because the underlying principles within that underlying principles within that underlying principles within that example example example >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> can actually be applied to pretty much >> can actually be applied to pretty much >> can actually be applied to pretty much everything in life. everything in life. everything in life. >> Uh, our self-worth, our happiness, our >> Uh, our self-worth, our happiness, our >> Uh, our self-worth, our happiness, our health. health. health. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> On an individual level, one thing I've >> On an individual level, one thing I've >> On an individual level, one thing I've realized over the past years and have realized over the past years and have realized over the past years and have spoken about spoken about spoken about with regularity on this podcast is this with regularity on this podcast is this with regularity on this podcast is this idea of measurables versus idea of measurables versus idea of measurables versus unmeasurables. unmeasurables. unmeasurables. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And >> And >> And where this idea becomes really important where this idea becomes really important where this idea becomes really important to me is to me is to me is because I look around society and I see because I look around society and I see because I look around society and I see many, many people, many, many people, many, many people, particularly in the middle of life, you particularly in the middle of life, you particularly in the middle of life, you know, 30s, 40s, 50s, where know, 30s, 40s, 50s, where know, 30s, 40s, 50s, where they have done the things that they they have done the things that they they have done the things that they thought they were meant to do, thought they were meant to do, thought they were meant to do, yet they still feel yet they still feel yet they still feel lost. lost. lost. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Maybe depressed, unhappy. I mean, I >> Maybe depressed, unhappy. I mean, I >> Maybe depressed, unhappy. I mean, I spoke to Joshua Fields Melbourne from spoke to Joshua Fields Melbourne from spoke to Joshua Fields Melbourne from The Minimalists a few weeks ago and he's The Minimalists a few weeks ago and he's The Minimalists a few weeks ago and he's got that classic story where in his 30s got that classic story where in his 30s got that classic story where in his 30s he had everything, the corporate job, he had everything, the corporate job, he had everything, the corporate job, the big house, a house full of loads of the big house, a house full of loads of the big house, a house full of loads of loads of stuff, but he wasn't happy. loads of stuff, but he wasn't happy. loads of stuff, but he wasn't happy. And there's many reasons for that, but I And there's many reasons for that, but I And there's many reasons for that, but I think a lot of the time it it simply think a lot of the time it it simply think a lot of the time it it simply comes down to what is measurable versus comes down to what is measurable versus comes down to what is measurable versus what is unmeasurable. So, in my life, what is unmeasurable. So, in my life, what is unmeasurable. So, in my life, I do have I do have I do have a lot of the societal ticks of success, a lot of the societal ticks of success, a lot of the societal ticks of success, right? The things that you can measure. right? The things that you can measure. right? The things that you can measure. But it was a few years ago I realized But it was a few years ago I realized But it was a few years ago I realized that stuff is probably not that stuff is probably not that stuff is probably not the totality of what makes me happy. It the totality of what makes me happy. It the totality of what makes me happy. It contributes, I think it would be naive contributes, I think it would be naive contributes, I think it would be naive for me to think that it didn't have any for me to think that it didn't have any for me to think that it didn't have any say at all, say at all, say at all, but I realized, particularly as I get but I realized, particularly as I get but I realized, particularly as I get older, that the gold in my life comes older, that the gold in my life comes older, that the gold in my life comes from the unmeasurables, right? So, the from the unmeasurables, right? So, the from the unmeasurables, right? So, the quality of the relationship I have with quality of the relationship I have with quality of the relationship I have with my wife, my wife, my wife, the quality of the relationship I have the quality of the relationship I have the quality of the relationship I have with my children, how much time I have with my children, how much time I have with my children, how much time I have each week to spend on my hobbies and my each week to spend on my hobbies and my each week to spend on my hobbies and my passions, but passions, but passions, but you can't easily measure that. Even if I you can't easily measure that. Even if I you can't easily measure that. Even if I think about my marriage, right? I could think about my marriage, right? I could think about my marriage, right? I could say to you, because cuz the you know, say to you, because cuz the you know, say to you, because cuz the you know, there's this whole thing throughout the there's this whole thing throughout the there's this whole thing throughout the book about metrics, and book about metrics, and book about metrics, and you've got to be careful what metrics you've got to be careful what metrics you've got to be careful what metrics you use in life, cuz those metrics are you use in life, cuz those metrics are you use in life, cuz those metrics are shaping shaping shaping whether you're aware of it or not. So, I whether you're aware of it or not. So, I whether you're aware of it or not. So, I could give you a metric and say, "Hey T, could give you a metric and say, "Hey T, could give you a metric and say, "Hey T, I've been married now for 18 years." I've been married now for 18 years." I've been married now for 18 years." >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And you go, "Oh, great, >> And you go, "Oh, great, >> And you go, "Oh, great, congratulations." Now, congratulations." Now, congratulations." Now, that metric doesn't even tell you that that metric doesn't even tell you that that metric doesn't even tell you that much. It it tells you yes, I've been much. It it tells you yes, I've been much. It it tells you yes, I've been with the same woman now for 18 years and with the same woman now for 18 years and with the same woman now for 18 years and we're married, we're married, we're married, but it doesn't tell you about the but it doesn't tell you about the but it doesn't tell you about the quality of my relationship, how close I quality of my relationship, how close I quality of my relationship, how close I am. Do you know what I mean? It it it am. Do you know what I mean? It it it am. Do you know what I mean? It it it I I don't know, maybe what you maybe I I don't know, maybe what you maybe I I don't know, maybe what you maybe have a different take it. have a different take it. have a different take it. >> You know, I I have exactly the take. I >> You know, I I have exactly the take. I >> You know, I I have exactly the take. I just just just there's a huge thing I want to say, but there's a huge thing I want to say, but there's a huge thing I want to say, but let me start by saying while you're let me start by saying while you're let me start by saying while you're giving that example, giving that example, giving that example, I just noticed something maybe striking, I just noticed something maybe striking, I just noticed something maybe striking, which is I think people are really which is I think people are really which is I think people are really content to say content to say content to say the length of a marriage, like that the length of a marriage, like that the length of a marriage, like that number, number, number, obviously isn't the important thing. obviously isn't the important thing. obviously isn't the important thing. It's the quality of that marriage. And It's the quality of that marriage. And It's the quality of that marriage. And then let's go over to another setting. then let's go over to another setting. then let's go over to another setting. It's often very hard It's often very hard It's often very hard in the medical setting, in the health in the medical setting, in the health in the medical setting, in the health setting, setting, setting, to fight against measures of the length to fight against measures of the length to fight against measures of the length of a life, right? Like I think a lot of of a life, right? Like I think a lot of of a life, right? Like I think a lot of I think one of the things we definitely I think one of the things we definitely I think one of the things we definitely to talk about at some point today to talk about at some point today to talk about at some point today is is is lifespan lifespan lifespan as a a primary health metric. as a a primary health metric. as a a primary health metric. And I I I I think it's like much more And I I I I think it's like much more And I I I I think it's like much more difficult for people to accept the view difficult for people to accept the view difficult for people to accept the view that that that there are things that you might want to there are things that you might want to there are things that you might want to trade off against trade off against trade off against longer lifespan, that that measurable longer lifespan, that that measurable longer lifespan, that that measurable seizes too much public attention. seizes too much public attention. seizes too much public attention. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Let's talk about it. So, I think my >> Let's talk about it. So, I think my >> Let's talk about it. So, I think my audience would be super interested in audience would be super interested in audience would be super interested in this. this. this. >> I mean, the >> I mean, the >> I mean, the Here's Here's one way to put it. Here's Here's one way to put it. Here's Here's one way to put it. I'm interested in cases in which the I'm interested in cases in which the I'm interested in cases in which the easy measurable auto wins a easy measurable auto wins a easy measurable auto wins a conversation. And I'm not I'm often not conversation. And I'm not I'm often not conversation. And I'm not I'm often not saying that I'm not saying that the saying that I'm not saying that the saying that I'm not saying that the measurable thing is unimportant. So, one measurable thing is unimportant. So, one measurable thing is unimportant. So, one of the key cases for me is lifespan. I of the key cases for me is lifespan. I of the key cases for me is lifespan. I mean, that's very easy to measure. And mean, that's very easy to measure. And mean, that's very easy to measure. And then you see these fights where lifespan then you see these fights where lifespan then you see these fights where lifespan wins against any other consideration. wins against any other consideration. wins against any other consideration. So, consider So, consider So, consider uh trying to figure out uh uh trying to figure out uh uh trying to figure out uh national health policy and medical national health policy and medical national health policy and medical recommendations for eating saturated recommendations for eating saturated recommendations for eating saturated fats and eating rich cheeses. And you fats and eating rich cheeses. And you fats and eating rich cheeses. And you might say that look, might say that look, might say that look, here's a clearly measurable correlation. here's a clearly measurable correlation. here's a clearly measurable correlation. You eat more of this, your lifespan goes You eat more of this, your lifespan goes You eat more of this, your lifespan goes down. down. down. Then there's stuff on the other side. Then there's stuff on the other side. Then there's stuff on the other side. There's deliciousness. There's culinary There's deliciousness. There's culinary There's deliciousness. There's culinary joy. There's tradition. There's like joy. There's tradition. There's like joy. There's tradition. There's like just just just just just just the pure raw joy of a rich the pure raw joy of a rich the pure raw joy of a rich properly cared for Camembert. properly cared for Camembert. properly cared for Camembert. But if you try to bring those into a But if you try to bring those into a But if you try to bring those into a conversation with someone that's conversation with someone that's conversation with someone that's wielding the number that says like, "But wielding the number that says like, "But wielding the number that says like, "But this will also make this will also make this will also make >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> average lifespans go down." >> average lifespans go down." >> average lifespans go down." The other stuff The other stuff The other stuff loses like automatically. There's not loses like automatically. There's not loses like automatically. There's not There's not even a In most of the uh There's not even a In most of the uh There's not even a In most of the uh fights I watch in the public in public fights I watch in the public in public fights I watch in the public in public health policy, that stuff can't even be health policy, that stuff can't even be health policy, that stuff can't even be put on the table. You sound kind of like put on the table. You sound kind of like put on the table. You sound kind of like a lunatic if you try to put that stuff a lunatic if you try to put that stuff a lunatic if you try to put that stuff on the table. And I think the reason is on the table. And I think the reason is on the table. And I think the reason is because there's not a clear way to because there's not a clear way to because there's not a clear way to measure it. Obviously. measure it. Obviously. measure it. Obviously. >> I I think this is a great example, >> I I think this is a great example, >> I I think this is a great example, right? The things we bias in medicine right? The things we bias in medicine right? The things we bias in medicine are the things that we can measure. are the things that we can measure. are the things that we can measure. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> We can measure blood sugar, cholesterol, >> We can measure blood sugar, cholesterol, >> We can measure blood sugar, cholesterol, weight, blood pressure. And of course, weight, blood pressure. And of course, weight, blood pressure. And of course, these measurable things have value. But these measurable things have value. But these measurable things have value. But we can't measure joy, love, we can't measure joy, love, we can't measure joy, love, passion, the quality of your passion, the quality of your passion, the quality of your relationships, right? relationships, right? relationships, right? But actually, if you look at the data, But actually, if you look at the data, But actually, if you look at the data, arguably the number one factor that that arguably the number one factor that that arguably the number one factor that that will determine your health, happiness, will determine your health, happiness, will determine your health, happiness, and longevity is the quality of your and longevity is the quality of your and longevity is the quality of your relationships. So this goes back to what relationships. So this goes back to what relationships. So this goes back to what I was saying before about the I was saying before about the I was saying before about the measurables versus the unmeasurables. measurables versus the unmeasurables. measurables versus the unmeasurables. I'm at the point of life today, which is I'm at the point of life today, which is I'm at the point of life today, which is I think why this book has resonated so I think why this book has resonated so I think why this book has resonated so deeply with me, deeply with me, deeply with me, because I think about the stuff all the because I think about the stuff all the because I think about the stuff all the time. I think about on in my personal time. I think about on in my personal time. I think about on in my personal life, life, life, wrongly, it's the unmeasurables wrongly, it's the unmeasurables wrongly, it's the unmeasurables that are going to give you your that are going to give you your that are going to give you your happiness and your contentedness. I know happiness and your contentedness. I know happiness and your contentedness. I know that. I know that full well that it's that. I know that full well that it's that. I know that full well that it's the things I can't easily measure that the things I can't easily measure that the things I can't easily measure that give me that joy. But as a medical give me that joy. But as a medical give me that joy. But as a medical doctor, the same thing applies, right? I doctor, the same thing applies, right? I doctor, the same thing applies, right? I put a video out on YouTube put a video out on YouTube put a video out on YouTube a few months ago that went It went a few months ago that went It went a few months ago that went It went pretty viral, to be honest with you. And pretty viral, to be honest with you. And pretty viral, to be honest with you. And I was literally talking about this in I was literally talking about this in I was literally talking about this in medicine, saying how we don't measure or medicine, saying how we don't measure or medicine, saying how we don't measure or we can't measure we can't measure we can't measure the things I've just mentioned or we the things I've just mentioned or we the things I've just mentioned or we can't measure your ability to forgive, can't measure your ability to forgive, can't measure your ability to forgive, right? There's a lot of research showing right? There's a lot of research showing right? There's a lot of research showing a strong relationship between people who a strong relationship between people who a strong relationship between people who are unable to forgive and people who are unable to forgive and people who are unable to forgive and people who hold on to resentment hold on to resentment hold on to resentment with the development of with the development of with the development of a whole variety of different chronic a whole variety of different chronic a whole variety of different chronic diseases. That was That was an diseases. That was That was an diseases. That was That was an association. It's a correlation, just to association. It's a correlation, just to association. It's a correlation, just to be really clear. be really clear. be really clear. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> But, Fred Luskin, for example, a >> But, Fred Luskin, for example, a >> But, Fred Luskin, for example, a professor from Stanford, has shown that professor from Stanford, has shown that professor from Stanford, has shown that in A-type people, in A-type people, in A-type people, if you can teach them how to forgive and if you can teach them how to forgive and if you can teach them how to forgive and let go, let go, let go, you can lower their blood pressure. you can lower their blood pressure. you can lower their blood pressure. Right? You You can do that. He has Right? You You can do that. He has Right? You You can do that. He has documented that. documented that. documented that. But, I can tell you you go to most But, I can tell you you go to most But, I can tell you you go to most doctors and they will not know this. I'm doctors and they will not know this. I'm doctors and they will not know this. I'm not having a go at them when I say that. not having a go at them when I say that. not having a go at them when I say that. But, it's it comes down to But, it's it comes down to But, it's it comes down to metrics that we can easily measure and metrics that we can easily measure and metrics that we can easily measure and metrics that we can't. metrics that we can't. metrics that we can't. And so, whether it's skateboarding, And so, whether it's skateboarding, And so, whether it's skateboarding, snowboarding in the Olympics, the picker snowboarding in the Olympics, the picker snowboarding in the Olympics, the picker passes you mentioned, the metric biases, passes you mentioned, the metric biases, passes you mentioned, the metric biases, you You're immediately biased by the you You're immediately biased by the you You're immediately biased by the metric that you're looking at, aren't metric that you're looking at, aren't metric that you're looking at, aren't you? you? you? >> Yeah, I mean, okay, I completely agree. >> Yeah, I mean, okay, I completely agree. >> Yeah, I mean, okay, I completely agree. The only small pushback I want to give The only small pushback I want to give The only small pushback I want to give is there's a little part of me that is is there's a little part of me that is is there's a little part of me that is frustrated with frustrated with frustrated with attempting attempting attempting to put a cash value on forgiveness. I to put a cash value on forgiveness. I to put a cash value on forgiveness. I think even when you're saying like, think even when you're saying like, think even when you're saying like, well, I can Here's my justification for well, I can Here's my justification for well, I can Here's my justification for why it's important to be a forgiving why it's important to be a forgiving why it's important to be a forgiving person, that'll make your blood pressure person, that'll make your blood pressure person, that'll make your blood pressure go down. That's still from the point of go down. That's still from the point of go down. That's still from the point of view that's like, this stuff only view that's like, this stuff only view that's like, this stuff only matters if we can tie it down to matters if we can tie it down to matters if we can tie it down to something measurable. And I want to say something measurable. And I want to say something measurable. And I want to say like, even that even that claim has like, even that even that claim has like, even that even that claim has bought into the view where the only bought into the view where the only bought into the view where the only things that we are legitimately allowed things that we are legitimately allowed things that we are legitimately allowed to put into an official adult to put into an official adult to put into an official adult conversation are the things that have conversation are the things that have conversation are the things that have cash value. cash value. cash value. >> Yeah. I love that. And the message I get >> Yeah. I love that. And the message I get >> Yeah. I love that. And the message I get throughout this book is that throughout this book is that throughout this book is that you know, the fish who spent their whole you know, the fish who spent their whole you know, the fish who spent their whole life swimming in water doesn't know what life swimming in water doesn't know what life swimming in water doesn't know what water is. Right? water is. Right? water is. Right? I feel that's the case with many of us I feel that's the case with many of us I feel that's the case with many of us as humans. We're We're swimming in the as humans. We're We're swimming in the as humans. We're We're swimming in the sea of metrics that have been decided by sea of metrics that have been decided by sea of metrics that have been decided by someone else. someone else. someone else. And And And until you become aware, like once you until you become aware, like once you until you become aware, like once you become aware it's hard to it's hard to become aware it's hard to it's hard to become aware it's hard to it's hard to [clears throat] go back. You sort of [clears throat] go back. You sort of [clears throat] go back. You sort of like, "Wait a minute. Where did I get like, "Wait a minute. Where did I get like, "Wait a minute. Where did I get this idea from that I need to do this in this idea from that I need to do this in this idea from that I need to do this in order to be successful?" Right? And me, order to be successful?" Right? And me, order to be successful?" Right? And me, probably part of me on this show probably part of me on this show probably part of me on this show because people are tuning in because because people are tuning in because because people are tuning in because they want to improve their health and they want to improve their health and they want to improve their health and their lives, their lives, their lives, I've been conditioned somewhat I've been conditioned somewhat I've been conditioned somewhat to have to justify. When I talk about I to have to justify. When I talk about I to have to justify. When I talk about I don't have to justify talking about don't have to justify talking about don't have to justify talking about blood pressure. People get that. But I blood pressure. People get that. But I blood pressure. People get that. But I sort of feel I've fallen into the trap sort of feel I've fallen into the trap sort of feel I've fallen into the trap that you're talking about for me to give that you're talking about for me to give that you're talking about for me to give forgiveness validity. Right? Because forgiveness validity. Right? Because forgiveness validity. Right? Because people who learn how to forgive when people who learn how to forgive when people who learn how to forgive when they previously couldn't, they previously couldn't, they previously couldn't, they'll just know how great that feels, they'll just know how great that feels, they'll just know how great that feels, how light and free you feel. Right? how light and free you feel. Right? how light and free you feel. Right? That should be enough in and of itself. That should be enough in and of itself. That should be enough in and of itself. But I feel I need to justify through the But I feel I need to justify through the But I feel I need to justify through the lens of, "Oh, did you know that this lens of, "Oh, did you know that this lens of, "Oh, did you know that this professor at Stanford has done this professor at Stanford has done this professor at Stanford has done this study? And he's shown study? And he's shown study? And he's shown >> Exactly. I mean, I have I have my own >> Exactly. I mean, I have I have my own >> Exactly. I mean, I have I have my own version of this to confess. So, version of this to confess. So, version of this to confess. So, as you know, while I was writing this as you know, while I was writing this as you know, while I was writing this book, I became super into yo-yo. I was book, I became super into yo-yo. I was book, I became super into yo-yo. I was studying other cases where some studying other cases where some studying other cases where some beautiful, delightful, weird beautiful, delightful, weird beautiful, delightful, weird activity activity activity had a competition scene and then had a competition scene and then had a competition scene and then suddenly changed. And so I started suddenly changed. And so I started suddenly changed. And so I started yo-yoing and I just found it yo-yoing and I just found it yo-yoing and I just found it wonderful and absorptive and playful and wonderful and absorptive and playful and wonderful and absorptive and playful and just the sheer joy of the momentum of just the sheer joy of the momentum of just the sheer joy of the momentum of thing was wonderful. And this is a book thing was wonderful. And this is a book thing was wonderful. And this is a book justifying justifying justifying saying that that is enough, right? That saying that that is enough, right? That saying that that is enough, right? That playfulness, that just the sheer rich playfulness, that just the sheer rich playfulness, that just the sheer rich joy of being an interesting doing is joy of being an interesting doing is joy of being an interesting doing is enough. enough. enough. And I, when I was at dinner parties and And I, when I was at dinner parties and And I, when I was at dinner parties and people would be like, "Oh, what are you people would be like, "Oh, what are you people would be like, "Oh, what are you doing?" I'm like, "I'm yo-yoing." And doing?" I'm like, "I'm yo-yoing." And doing?" I'm like, "I'm yo-yoing." And they're like, "Why are you doing that?" they're like, "Why are you doing that?" they're like, "Why are you doing that?" And I would say things like, "Well, it And I would say things like, "Well, it And I would say things like, "Well, it really relaxes me, so it helps me write really relaxes me, so it helps me write really relaxes me, so it helps me write more and it destresses me, so I can more and it destresses me, so I can more and it destresses me, so I can write more." And I think even then, write more." And I think even then, write more." And I think even then, that's that's how deeply we've ingested that's that's how deeply we've ingested that's that's how deeply we've ingested the mindset that in the middle of the mindset that in the middle of the mindset that in the middle of writing a book about how we should writing a book about how we should writing a book about how we should accept that play is the end of the line, accept that play is the end of the line, accept that play is the end of the line, that this is the most important thing, I that this is the most important thing, I that this is the most important thing, I found myself needing to justify found myself needing to justify found myself needing to justify I mean, ironically, I found myself I mean, ironically, I found myself I mean, ironically, I found myself needing to justify my new found love of needing to justify my new found love of needing to justify my new found love of a formal play by saying a formal play by saying a formal play by saying it helped me get back to work and write it helped me get back to work and write it helped me get back to work and write more pages in my book justifying the more pages in my book justifying the more pages in my book justifying the value of play. value of play. value of play. >> Yeah, we have to we feel that we have to >> Yeah, we have to we feel that we have to >> Yeah, we have to we feel that we have to justify the unmeasurable because the justify the unmeasurable because the justify the unmeasurable because the unmeasurable doesn't have intrinsic unmeasurable doesn't have intrinsic unmeasurable doesn't have intrinsic value in and of itself, which is value in and of itself, which is value in and of itself, which is utter garbage. utter garbage. utter garbage. >> Okay, this is perfect because I think >> Okay, this is perfect because I think >> Okay, this is perfect because I think part of the theory I have about part of the theory I have about part of the theory I have about measurement is that what measurement is measurement is that what measurement is measurement is that what measurement is doing is it's a pre-made system of easy doing is it's a pre-made system of easy doing is it's a pre-made system of easy justification. It's no surprise, this justification. It's no surprise, this justification. It's no surprise, this thing we're talking about, that's no thing we're talking about, that's no thing we're talking about, that's no surprise cuz what metrics are are things surprise cuz what metrics are are things surprise cuz what metrics are are things designed to quickly and easily justify designed to quickly and easily justify designed to quickly and easily justify ourselves in public. ourselves in public. ourselves in public. And this is I mean, so I think And this is I mean, so I think And this is I mean, so I think the thing that I've bought been on and the thing that I've bought been on and the thing that I've bought been on and I'm I'm super excited because I feel I'm I'm super excited because I feel I'm I'm super excited because I feel like you're you're touching on the raw like you're you're touching on the raw like you're you're touching on the raw bleeding heart of the thing I care the bleeding heart of the thing I care the bleeding heart of the thing I care the most about and it's the hardest to say. most about and it's the hardest to say. most about and it's the hardest to say. I mean, I think a lot of us know, oh, I mean, I think a lot of us know, oh, I mean, I think a lot of us know, oh, the measurement doesn't capture the measurement doesn't capture the measurement doesn't capture everything. There's more, there's more everything. There's more, there's more everything. There's more, there's more we feel there's more. Um we feel there's more. Um we feel there's more. Um but I wanted to know why. So, I had all but I wanted to know why. So, I had all but I wanted to know why. So, I had all these experiences over and over again these experiences over and over again these experiences over and over again where I would where I would where I would be pushing back against a form of some be pushing back against a form of some be pushing back against a form of some kind of easy measurement. So, one of the kind of easy measurement. So, one of the kind of easy measurement. So, one of the origin stories of writing this book was origin stories of writing this book was origin stories of writing this book was a friend of mine, a friend of mine, a friend of mine, um um um Adrian Curry, he's a philosopher of Adrian Curry, he's a philosopher of Adrian Curry, he's a philosopher of science. A bunch of years ago, before science. A bunch of years ago, before science. A bunch of years ago, before the current rage of range of AI, he was the current rage of range of AI, he was the current rage of range of AI, he was like, "T, I need you to come to this like, "T, I need you to come to this like, "T, I need you to come to this conference. Uh it's a creativity and AI conference. Uh it's a creativity and AI conference. Uh it's a creativity and AI conference." And it was a bunch of conference." And it was a bunch of conference." And it was a bunch of computer scientists and philosophers who computer scientists and philosophers who computer scientists and philosophers who were making a first gen of creative art were making a first gen of creative art were making a first gen of creative art making AI, like way before the current making AI, like way before the current making AI, like way before the current gen. I he was calling me in as a gen. I he was calling me in as a gen. I he was calling me in as a philosopher of art and I was like, "I philosopher of art and I was like, "I philosopher of art and I was like, "I don't know anything about AI. He said, don't know anything about AI. He said, don't know anything about AI. He said, you have to come, you have to come, I you have to come, you have to come, I you have to come, you have to come, I need you here. So, I show up and I'm in need you here. So, I show up and I'm in need you here. So, I show up and I'm in this room and there are all these people this room and there are all these people this room and there are all these people building AI and they say they're building AI and they say they're building AI and they say they're optimizing for good art. And I finally, optimizing for good art. And I finally, optimizing for good art. And I finally, like, carefully raise my hand from the like, carefully raise my hand from the like, carefully raise my hand from the back and I say like, uh how are you back and I say like, uh how are you back and I say like, uh how are you measuring good art? How are you measuring good art? How are you measuring good art? How are you operationalizing it? What what's your operationalizing it? What what's your operationalizing it? What what's your training data? And they said, well, training data? And they said, well, training data? And they said, well, we're just using the Netflix database on we're just using the Netflix database on we're just using the Netflix database on engagement hours. And I lost it. I like engagement hours. And I lost it. I like engagement hours. And I lost it. I like cursed from the back of the room and I cursed from the back of the room and I cursed from the back of the room and I said like, that is not good art. And said like, that is not good art. And said like, that is not good art. And then they said, well, show us another then they said, well, show us another then they said, well, show us another large-scale accessible database with a large-scale accessible database with a large-scale accessible database with a better measure for good art and we'll better measure for good art and we'll better measure for good art and we'll use that instead. And I thought in that use that instead. And I thought in that use that instead. And I thought in that moment, moment, moment, there isn't one. And it's not an there isn't one. And it's not an there isn't one. And it's not an accident. I mean, I think a lot of the accident. I mean, I think a lot of the accident. I mean, I think a lot of the times when you point out a bad metric, times when you point out a bad metric, times when you point out a bad metric, you're like, this metric sucks, which you're like, this metric sucks, which you're like, this metric sucks, which people do all the time. People's people do all the time. People's people do all the time. People's response is, sure, okay. That's that's response is, sure, okay. That's that's response is, sure, okay. That's that's all right, but we'll just find a better all right, but we'll just find a better all right, but we'll just find a better metric. And I was interested in whether metric. And I was interested in whether metric. And I was interested in whether there's a part of life that there's a part of life that there's a part of life that systematically defied metrics, that systematically defied metrics, that systematically defied metrics, that systematically defied datafication, that systematically defied datafication, that systematically defied datafication, that systematically defied measurement. systematically defied measurement. systematically defied measurement. And And And I think I found the answer. I think I found the answer. I think I found the answer. Uh and the answer comes from a bunch of Uh and the answer comes from a bunch of Uh and the answer comes from a bunch of places. It comes to me mostly from a places. It comes to me mostly from a places. It comes to me mostly from a field called science and technology field called science and technology field called science and technology studies, which is a field that starts in studies, which is a field that starts in studies, which is a field that starts in philosophy of science and then explodes philosophy of science and then explodes philosophy of science and then explodes into this broad field full of historians into this broad field full of historians into this broad field full of historians and anthropologists and sociologists. and anthropologists and sociologists. and anthropologists and sociologists. Um and the answer comes in a few places, Um and the answer comes in a few places, Um and the answer comes in a few places, but I think the first thing to put on but I think the first thing to put on but I think the first thing to put on the table, right where our conversation the table, right where our conversation the table, right where our conversation is, is an idea from Theodore Porter. So, is, is an idea from Theodore Porter. So, is, is an idea from Theodore Porter. So, Theodore Porter is a historian of Theodore Porter is a historian of Theodore Porter is a historian of quantification culture. He has this quantification culture. He has this quantification culture. He has this book, Trust in Numbers, which is one of book, Trust in Numbers, which is one of book, Trust in Numbers, which is one of the, you know, like, matrix-type veil the, you know, like, matrix-type veil the, you know, like, matrix-type veil rips from my eyes moments. rips from my eyes moments. rips from my eyes moments. So, So, So, he's trying to understand he's trying to understand he's trying to understand uh why bureaucrats and politicians uh why bureaucrats and politicians uh why bureaucrats and politicians compulsively reach for quantified compulsively reach for quantified compulsively reach for quantified justification justification justification even when even when even when we know that we know that we know that the metrics are bad, that they're not the metrics are bad, that they're not the metrics are bad, that they're not capturing what's really important. His capturing what's really important. His capturing what's really important. His answer is that there's two kinds of ways answer is that there's two kinds of ways answer is that there's two kinds of ways of knowing about the world, qualitative of knowing about the world, qualitative of knowing about the world, qualitative and quantitative, and they're good at and quantitative, and they're good at and quantitative, and they're good at different things, different things, different things, and the problem is when we compulsively and the problem is when we compulsively and the problem is when we compulsively reach for the quantitative, even when reach for the quantitative, even when reach for the quantitative, even when it's not the appropriate vehicle for it's not the appropriate vehicle for it's not the appropriate vehicle for knowing or thinking about the world. So, knowing or thinking about the world. So, knowing or thinking about the world. So, he says, "Okay, qualitative he says, "Okay, qualitative he says, "Okay, qualitative justification, qualitative justification, qualitative justification, qualitative communication, using words, is communication, using words, is communication, using words, is open-ended and dynamic, and rich and open-ended and dynamic, and rich and open-ended and dynamic, and rich and subtle and context-sensitive, subtle and context-sensitive, subtle and context-sensitive, but it travels badly between people of but it travels badly between people of but it travels badly between people of different with different contexts, different with different contexts, different with different contexts, because it requires a lot of shared because it requires a lot of shared because it requires a lot of shared background information. So, background information. So, background information. So, uh my example, since I'm an academic, my uh my example, since I'm an academic, my uh my example, since I'm an academic, my example is always like when I write example is always like when I write example is always like when I write responses to my student papers, they're responses to my student papers, they're responses to my student papers, they're rich, we can use all the language from rich, we can use all the language from rich, we can use all the language from the particular class, I can move in the particular class, I can move in the particular class, I can move in multiple dimensions, I can compare their multiple dimensions, I can compare their multiple dimensions, I can compare their rigor to their creativity, to their rigor to their creativity, to their rigor to their creativity, to their subtlety, to their originality, to their subtlety, to their originality, to their subtlety, to their originality, to their like ethical thoughtfulness, and I I like ethical thoughtfulness, and I I like ethical thoughtfulness, and I I first of all, I don't have to first of all, I don't have to first of all, I don't have to push those into one measure. I can just push those into one measure. I can just push those into one measure. I can just be like, "Look, this is really creative, be like, "Look, this is really creative, be like, "Look, this is really creative, but your writing isn't as clear." And I but your writing isn't as clear." And I but your writing isn't as clear." And I can just leave that there. can just leave that there. can just leave that there. And I can also use all the richness of And I can also use all the richness of And I can also use all the richness of our shared time together. Like, we our shared time together. Like, we our shared time together. Like, we develop a lot of language together in develop a lot of language together in develop a lot of language together in the classroom, and I can use that the classroom, and I can use that the classroom, and I can use that sensibility about what makes a good sensibility about what makes a good sensibility about what makes a good argument or why thinking is worthwhile. argument or why thinking is worthwhile. argument or why thinking is worthwhile. But that, I mean, surely A, But that, I mean, surely A, But that, I mean, surely A, someone from the business school is not someone from the business school is not someone from the business school is not going to understand all those terms, and going to understand all those terms, and going to understand all those terms, and I'm not going to understand their I'm not going to understand their I'm not going to understand their evaluations for their students, and it evaluations for their students, and it evaluations for their students, and it won't aggregate. There's no way to won't aggregate. There's no way to won't aggregate. There's no way to quickly compress that stuff for someone quickly compress that stuff for someone quickly compress that stuff for someone in human resources or hiring, right? A in human resources or hiring, right? A in human resources or hiring, right? A student who receives a thousand of those student who receives a thousand of those student who receives a thousand of those evaluations, there's no fast way to evaluations, there's no fast way to evaluations, there's no fast way to digest that qualitative stuff. digest that qualitative stuff. digest that qualitative stuff. So, the solution to this, at the So, the solution to this, at the So, the solution to this, at the institutional level, says Porter, is to institutional level, says Porter, is to institutional level, says Porter, is to create quantified data. create quantified data. create quantified data. And what And what And what quantification is, says Porter, is quantification is, says Porter, is quantification is, says Porter, is the intentional creation of a the intentional creation of a the intentional creation of a context-invariant context-invariant context-invariant chunk chunk chunk that we keep stable. So, we specify that we keep stable. So, we specify that we keep stable. So, we specify something, we remove everything that something, we remove everything that something, we remove everything that requires a lot of high context to requires a lot of high context to requires a lot of high context to understand, and then we've made understand, and then we've made understand, and then we've made something that he says can travel. Um something that he says can travel. Um something that he says can travel. Um so, like uh a letter grade. I think so, like uh a letter grade. I think so, like uh a letter grade. I think letter grades are different in the UK letter grades are different in the UK letter grades are different in the UK and in the US, but for us, you know, an and in the US, but for us, you know, an and in the US, but for us, you know, an A is a A is great, B is medium, C is A is a A is great, B is medium, C is A is a A is great, B is medium, C is mediocre. And if everyone holds about mediocre. And if everyone holds about mediocre. And if everyone holds about that meaning, that meaning, that meaning, then the information can really travel. then the information can really travel. then the information can really travel. As and Bs can move anywhere, people As and Bs can move anywhere, people As and Bs can move anywhere, people understand what they mean, and they understand what they mean, and they understand what they mean, and they aggregate incredibly well because we've aggregate incredibly well because we've aggregate incredibly well because we've removed all this multi-dimensionality. removed all this multi-dimensionality. removed all this multi-dimensionality. >> Are you Sorry to interrupt. Just just to >> Are you Sorry to interrupt. Just just to >> Are you Sorry to interrupt. Just just to check I've got this. So, you're saying check I've got this. So, you're saying check I've got this. So, you're saying with your students, for example, that with your students, for example, that with your students, for example, that you teach um you teach um you teach um one-on-one in your small groups, you one-on-one in your small groups, you one-on-one in your small groups, you have a variety of different ways to have a variety of different ways to have a variety of different ways to feedback to them. feedback to them. feedback to them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> There's multiple dimensions that you're >> There's multiple dimensions that you're >> There's multiple dimensions that you're looking at, right? looking at, right? looking at, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But >> But >> But the system requires you at the end of the system requires you at the end of the system requires you at the end of the course the course the course >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> to give them a single metric, like an A, >> to give them a single metric, like an A, >> to give them a single metric, like an A, B, C, D, E. And the point of that metric B, C, D, E. And the point of that metric B, C, D, E. And the point of that metric is to travel. It's so that when they is to travel. It's so that when they is to travel. It's so that when they apply for a job, apply for a job, apply for a job, >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> the person who's hiring them or >> the person who's hiring them or >> the person who's hiring them or interviewing them knows, "Oh, when they interviewing them knows, "Oh, when they interviewing them knows, "Oh, when they sat that university course, they were an sat that university course, they were an sat that university course, they were an A student or they were a B student." To A student or they were a B student." To A student or they were a B student." To give them an idea. give them an idea. give them an idea. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> But of course >> But of course >> But of course depending on what that job requires, depending on what that job requires, depending on what that job requires, it could be that a C student who isn't it could be that a C student who isn't it could be that a C student who isn't particularly good at scientific rigor, particularly good at scientific rigor, particularly good at scientific rigor, but was exceptionally good at but was exceptionally good at but was exceptionally good at creativity, creativity, creativity, maybe they're the perfect person for maybe they're the perfect person for maybe they're the perfect person for that job, but the grade doesn't reflect that job, but the grade doesn't reflect that job, but the grade doesn't reflect that. And you had quite a funny story in that. And you had quite a funny story in that. And you had quite a funny story in the book where I think at one point you the book where I think at one point you the book where I think at one point you said to your students, said to your students, said to your students, "I'm going to give you all A grades, so "I'm going to give you all A grades, so "I'm going to give you all A grades, so you can take You don't need to worry you can take You don't need to worry you can take You don't need to worry about that. Let's get into the real kind about that. Let's get into the real kind about that. Let's get into the real kind of meat of the topic." of meat of the topic." of meat of the topic." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But that didn't work either, did it? >> But that didn't work either, did it? >> But that didn't work either, did it? >> Nope. >> Nope. >> Nope. >> Can you just tell that story? So so of >> Can you just tell that story? So so of >> Can you just tell that story? So so of all, did I get you Did I Was my all, did I get you Did I Was my all, did I get you Did I Was my interpretation correct what you were interpretation correct what you were interpretation correct what you were trying to say? And then if you could trying to say? And then if you could trying to say? And then if you could just tell us that story. just tell us that story. just tell us that story. >> Yeah, I mean >> Yeah, I mean >> Yeah, I mean it was mostly correct, but I I I just it was mostly correct, but I I I just it was mostly correct, but I I I just want to caution you on something. So I want to caution you on something. So I want to caution you on something. So I think it's not just that I can rate my think it's not just that I can rate my think it's not just that I can rate my students on multiple multiple dimensions students on multiple multiple dimensions students on multiple multiple dimensions and then grades collapse that to one and then grades collapse that to one and then grades collapse that to one dimension. dimension. dimension. It's that I can use language and terms It's that I can use language and terms It's that I can use language and terms that don't even exist on a spectrum. that don't even exist on a spectrum. that don't even exist on a spectrum. Like not everything exists on a graded Like not everything exists on a graded Like not everything exists on a graded spectrum. Not everything exists on a spectrum. Not everything exists on a spectrum. Not everything exists on a ranked [snorts] spectrum. The thing that ranked [snorts] spectrum. The thing that ranked [snorts] spectrum. The thing that I I want to resist is thinking that I I want to resist is thinking that I I want to resist is thinking that what's behind what's behind what's behind We give someone an A and that's a point We give someone an A and that's a point We give someone an A and that's a point on one on one on one ranking scale, but in reality there's ranking scale, but in reality there's ranking scale, but in reality there's five rank scales. five rank scales. five rank scales. It's not that. It's like not all It's not that. It's like not all It's not that. It's like not all communication exists on a ranked scale. communication exists on a ranked scale. communication exists on a ranked scale. I mean, the thing that Porter's trying I mean, the thing that Porter's trying I mean, the thing that Porter's trying to say is that to say is that to say is that quantified data quantified data quantified data is is is a summarized chunk built to travel and a summarized chunk built to travel and a summarized chunk built to travel and the way you make it ready to travel is the way you make it ready to travel is the way you make it ready to travel is you strip off everything that would give you strip off everything that would give you strip off everything that would give you a lot of friction when it moves you a lot of friction when it moves you a lot of friction when it moves between layers. And then you have this between layers. And then you have this between layers. And then you have this slimmed-down smooth thing that travels slimmed-down smooth thing that travels slimmed-down smooth thing that travels easily. And what gives people friction easily. And what gives people friction easily. And what gives people friction is things that require context. is things that require context. is things that require context. So it's not just So it's not just So it's not just multi-multidimensionality. multi-multidimensionality. multi-multidimensionality. It's the richness of context required to It's the richness of context required to It's the richness of context required to interpret interpret interpret a particular communication in a a particular communication in a a particular communication in a particular context. That's what has to particular context. That's what has to particular context. That's what has to leave the thing. When point Porter says leave the thing. When point Porter says leave the thing. When point Porter says this remarkable thing. He says, "Because this remarkable thing. He says, "Because this remarkable thing. He says, "Because what information is what information is what information is is a particular way of understanding the is a particular way of understanding the is a particular way of understanding the world world world that's been sterilized that's been sterilized that's been sterilized to be readily understood by a distant to be readily understood by a distant to be readily understood by a distant stranger with no shared context. stranger with no shared context. stranger with no shared context. And one way to put the problem of value And one way to put the problem of value And one way to put the problem of value capture is that capture is that capture is that you're ruling yourself you're ruling yourself you're ruling yourself in terms that have been sterilized for in terms that have been sterilized for in terms that have been sterilized for consumption by distant strangers. You're consumption by distant strangers. You're consumption by distant strangers. You're ruling yourself limited only to the ruling yourself limited only to the ruling yourself limited only to the language that has had all context language that has had all context language that has had all context stripped out specifically so it can be stripped out specifically so it can be stripped out specifically so it can be quickly summarized and aggregated. quickly summarized and aggregated. quickly summarized and aggregated. >> It feels like this is happening more and >> It feels like this is happening more and >> It feels like this is happening more and more in the world where you almost have more in the world where you almost have more in the world where you almost have to fight so hard against the system to to fight so hard against the system to to fight so hard against the system to actually actually actually hold true to what it is you stand for. I hold true to what it is you stand for. I hold true to what it is you stand for. I mean, we've mentioned value capture this mean, we've mentioned value capture this mean, we've mentioned value capture this rigid attachment to an external system rigid attachment to an external system rigid attachment to an external system of value and you can kind of see that of value and you can kind of see that of value and you can kind of see that everywhere. You can see it in medicine everywhere. You can see it in medicine everywhere. You can see it in medicine and health care and the book you you and health care and the book you you and health care and the book you you make the case in journalism you can see make the case in journalism you can see make the case in journalism you can see it. I think you make a really nice case it. I think you make a really nice case it. I think you make a really nice case in in in um um um law schools. I think we said law schools law schools. I think we said law schools law schools. I think we said law schools used to used to used to have different missions. They used to have different missions. They used to have different missions. They used to stand for different things. stand for different things. stand for different things. But when you sort of collapse and go But when you sort of collapse and go But when you sort of collapse and go well, what's the grade? Or or what's well, what's the grade? Or or what's well, what's the grade? Or or what's that assessment? That then you you've that assessment? That then you you've that assessment? That then you you've lost all that nuance. You're just you're lost all that nuance. You're just you're lost all that nuance. You're just you're looking at a looking at a looking at a just a ranking table of you know just a ranking table of you know just a ranking table of you know what percent of people get this grade what percent of people get this grade what percent of people get this grade and what percent want to get a job at a and what percent want to get a job at a and what percent want to get a job at a top firm or whatever it might be which top firm or whatever it might be which top firm or whatever it might be which is so unidimensional, isn't it? is so unidimensional, isn't it? is so unidimensional, isn't it? >> Yeah, but I also want to push back cuz I >> Yeah, but I also want to push back cuz I >> Yeah, but I also want to push back cuz I think think think I want to now I want to speak up for I want to now I want to speak up for I want to now I want to speak up for metrics because I actually think that metrics because I actually think that metrics because I actually think that makes the situation more horrifying. makes the situation more horrifying. makes the situation more horrifying. >> As many if you know, when glucose is >> As many if you know, when glucose is >> As many if you know, when glucose is relatively stable, you feel better relatively stable, you feel better relatively stable, you feel better day-to-day with steady energy, mood, and day-to-day with steady energy, mood, and day-to-day with steady energy, mood, and focus. But over time, unstable and focus. But over time, unstable and focus. But over time, unstable and elevated glucose can also impair your elevated glucose can also impair your elevated glucose can also impair your metabolic health and increase the risk metabolic health and increase the risk metabolic health and increase the risk of type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular of type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular of type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease. disease. disease. Globally, more than 760 Globally, more than 760 Globally, more than 760 million adults are thought to have million adults are thought to have million adults are thought to have prediabetes, many without symptoms or a prediabetes, many without symptoms or a prediabetes, many without symptoms or a diagnosis. And the problem is that our diagnosis. And the problem is that our diagnosis. And the problem is that our health care system often waits until you health care system often waits until you health care system often waits until you get sick before taking action. When we get sick before taking action. When we get sick before taking action. When we should take a proactive approach to should take a proactive approach to should take a proactive approach to prevent problems before they start. prevent problems before they start. prevent problems before they start. Now, many of us don't have access to our Now, many of us don't have access to our Now, many of us don't have access to our own glucose data, and therefore don't own glucose data, and therefore don't own glucose data, and therefore don't have clear feedback on how our everyday have clear feedback on how our everyday have clear feedback on how our everyday choices impact our glucose. That's where choices impact our glucose. That's where choices impact our glucose. That's where Lingo by Abbott comes in. Lingo by Abbott comes in. Lingo by Abbott comes in. Lingo is a biosensor and app that helps Lingo is a biosensor and app that helps Lingo is a biosensor and app that helps you see how food, movement, and you see how food, movement, and you see how food, movement, and lifestyle choices affect your glucose in lifestyle choices affect your glucose in lifestyle choices affect your glucose in real time, so you can notice patterns real time, so you can notice patterns real time, so you can notice patterns and build healthier habits in the and build healthier habits in the and build healthier habits in the moment. moment. moment. With Lingo, you can get to know your With Lingo, you can get to know your With Lingo, you can get to know your glucose to build healthy habits for glucose to build healthy habits for glucose to build healthy habits for today and tomorrow. today and tomorrow. today and tomorrow. For listeners in the US and the UK, For listeners in the US and the UK, For listeners in the US and the UK, Lingo by Abbott is offering an exclusive Lingo by Abbott is offering an exclusive Lingo by Abbott is offering an exclusive 10% off a 4-week plan. Just scan the QR 10% off a 4-week plan. Just scan the QR 10% off a 4-week plan. Just scan the QR code on screen or visit code on screen or visit code on screen or visit hellolingo.com/livemore for more information. Terms and for more information. Terms and conditions do apply. conditions do apply. conditions do apply. >> There's an easy position that tempts >> There's an easy position that tempts >> There's an easy position that tempts people, I think, at this point, which is people, I think, at this point, which is people, I think, at this point, which is all metrics are bad, they're all all metrics are bad, they're all all metrics are bad, they're all information loss. Let's get rid of them. information loss. Let's get rid of them. information loss. Let's get rid of them. Let's be alive, rich people, constantly Let's be alive, rich people, constantly Let's be alive, rich people, constantly alive to the wonder. That doesn't work, alive to the wonder. That doesn't work, alive to the wonder. That doesn't work, either, because we need metrics. I think either, because we need metrics. I think either, because we need metrics. I think this is the true pain, because this is the true pain, because this is the true pain, because um um um because because because we need highly compressible we need highly compressible we need highly compressible highly travelable, easily understood highly travelable, easily understood highly travelable, easily understood data chunks to organize ourselves at data chunks to organize ourselves at data chunks to organize ourselves at vast scale. This is I mean, this is how vast scale. This is I mean, this is how vast scale. This is I mean, this is how science works, right? Science works by science works, right? Science works by science works, right? Science works by the collection of data. Data works the collection of data. Data works the collection of data. Data works Science at its best involves different Science at its best involves different Science at its best involves different people collecting to the same buckets, people collecting to the same buckets, people collecting to the same buckets, so that they can amass mass piles of so that they can amass mass piles of so that they can amass mass piles of data and do analysis on that data, data and do analysis on that data, data and do analysis on that data, right? And also, like, we do need right? And also, like, we do need right? And also, like, we do need large-scale There are many contexts in large-scale There are many contexts in large-scale There are many contexts in which large-scale information transfer which large-scale information transfer which large-scale information transfer is is is and highly portable information is and highly portable information is and highly portable information is really valuable. So, I think the college really valuable. So, I think the college really valuable. So, I think the college rankings example is a really good one rankings example is a really good one rankings example is a really good one because it shows us the tension between because it shows us the tension between because it shows us the tension between the two faces. So, the two faces. So, the two faces. So, that example for me is a great example that example for me is a great example that example for me is a great example of value capture. So, there's a really of value capture. So, there's a really of value capture. So, there's a really good study good study good study of what happened what college rankings of what happened what college rankings of what happened what college rankings do to educational culture in a book do to educational culture in a book do to educational culture in a book called Engines of Anxiety. It's a book called Engines of Anxiety. It's a book called Engines of Anxiety. It's a book about Wendy Espeland and Michael Sauder about Wendy Espeland and Michael Sauder about Wendy Espeland and Michael Sauder who are sociologists and they studied who are sociologists and they studied who are sociologists and they studied what happened when US News & World what happened when US News & World what happened when US News & World Report started ranking law schools. The Report started ranking law schools. The Report started ranking law schools. The first thing they say first thing they say first thing they say is that exactly is that exactly is that exactly what what you noted, right? Like so, um what what you noted, right? Like so, um what what you noted, right? Like so, um law schools before the rankings used to law schools before the rankings used to law schools before the rankings used to have many dimensions of many dimensions have many dimensions of many dimensions have many dimensions of many dimensions of value. Like some were more interested of value. Like some were more interested of value. Like some were more interested in in in getting their students high-paying getting their students high-paying getting their students high-paying corporate jobs, some were more corporate jobs, some were more corporate jobs, some were more interested in social and community interested in social and community interested in social and community outreach missions, some were more outreach missions, some were more outreach missions, some were more interested in um interested in um interested in um theoretical and legal scholarship and theoretical and legal scholarship and theoretical and legal scholarship and research work. And they would represent research work. And they would represent research work. And they would represent these things in qualitative ways. these things in qualitative ways. these things in qualitative ways. Um and the coming of the rankings Um and the coming of the rankings Um and the coming of the rankings imposed one particular judgment, right? imposed one particular judgment, right? imposed one particular judgment, right? So, the law school rankings are mostly So, the law school rankings are mostly So, the law school rankings are mostly based on incoming class GPA, incoming based on incoming class GPA, incoming based on incoming class GPA, incoming class LSAT score, and outgoing class class LSAT score, and outgoing class class LSAT score, and outgoing class employment rate at the 9-month mark. So, employment rate at the 9-month mark. So, employment rate at the 9-month mark. So, that's a that's a that's a that that imposes a very rigid sense of that that imposes a very rigid sense of that that imposes a very rigid sense of value and it also narrows down on value and it also narrows down on value and it also narrows down on measurables. Um so, one of the things measurables. Um so, one of the things measurables. Um so, one of the things that they say that I found really that they say that I found really that they say that I found really striking was that before the rankings striking was that before the rankings striking was that before the rankings the process of figuring out a law school the process of figuring out a law school the process of figuring out a law school um which law school a student wanted to um which law school a student wanted to um which law school a student wanted to go to would trigger a process of go to would trigger a process of go to would trigger a process of internal deliberation. A prospective law internal deliberation. A prospective law internal deliberation. A prospective law school student would ask themselves, school student would ask themselves, school student would ask themselves, "What do I care about more? Theoretical "What do I care about more? Theoretical "What do I care about more? Theoretical work? Corporate work? Social justice work? Corporate work? Social justice work? Corporate work? Social justice work?" And that value crossroads would work?" And that value crossroads would work?" And that value crossroads would lead them into a process of reflection lead them into a process of reflection lead them into a process of reflection about what they actually cared about. about what they actually cared about. about what they actually cared about. And the moment the rankings showed up, And the moment the rankings showed up, And the moment the rankings showed up, what they record is that students what they record is that students what they record is that students stopped doing this. They They did the stopped doing this. They They did the stopped doing this. They They did the research, by the way, by looking at research, by the way, by looking at research, by the way, by looking at internet archives of like forums of internet archives of like forums of internet archives of like forums of discussions between prospective law discussions between prospective law discussions between prospective law students, and they say that the moment students, and they say that the moment students, and they say that the moment the US News & World Report starts the US News & World Report starts the US News & World Report starts ranking ranking ranking uh law schools, students immediately uh law schools, students immediately uh law schools, students immediately take their take their take their goal to be to get into the best law goal to be to get into the best law goal to be to get into the best law school, where best is just set by those school, where best is just set by those school, where best is just set by those rankings. So, they stop value rankings. So, they stop value rankings. So, they stop value deliberating. This is This is the deliberating. This is This is the deliberating. This is This is the example that led me to really So, one of example that led me to really So, one of example that led me to really So, one of the formulations from the book that one the formulations from the book that one the formulations from the book that one of the of the of the things I end up saying is that the things I end up saying is that the things I end up saying is that the problem of value capture is that you're problem of value capture is that you're problem of value capture is that you're outsourcing your values, and you're outsourcing your values, and you're outsourcing your values, and you're outsourcing your values to an external outsourcing your values to an external outsourcing your values to an external You might be outsourcing your values to You might be outsourcing your values to You might be outsourcing your values to Mark Zuckerberg or Elon Musk, right? Mark Zuckerberg or Elon Musk, right? Mark Zuckerberg or Elon Musk, right? Whoever is setting the measure. In this Whoever is setting the measure. In this Whoever is setting the measure. In this case, you're outsourcing the value of case, you're outsourcing the value of case, you're outsourcing the value of your education to the US News & World your education to the US News & World your education to the US News & World Report that sets the terms of Report that sets the terms of Report that sets the terms of measurement, right? But, measurement, right? But, measurement, right? But, and here's the big butt. and here's the big butt. and here's the big butt. The US News & World Report also had a The US News & World Report also had a The US News & World Report also had a good reason to do this. good reason to do this. good reason to do this. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um The reason Their stated reason was >> Um The reason Their stated reason was >> Um The reason Their stated reason was that before them, every school could that before them, every school could that before them, every school could talk about itself in glowing terms. Um talk about itself in glowing terms. Um talk about itself in glowing terms. Um maybe its value mission was genuine, or maybe its value mission was genuine, or maybe its value mission was genuine, or maybe it was BS. Maybe they were maybe it was BS. Maybe they were maybe it was BS. Maybe they were fulfilling, or maybe they weren't. And fulfilling, or maybe they weren't. And fulfilling, or maybe they weren't. And um um um if you were in the know, if you had the if you were in the know, if you had the if you were in the know, if you had the connections to people embedded in law connections to people embedded in law connections to people embedded in law culture, you could get the inside scoop. culture, you could get the inside scoop. culture, you could get the inside scoop. But, you know, they were trying to help But, you know, they were trying to help But, you know, they were trying to help people like me. You know, I am a people like me. You know, I am a people like me. You know, I am a immigrant's kid. My kid My parents know immigrant's kid. My kid My parents know immigrant's kid. My kid My parents know nothing about the the landscape. And so, nothing about the the landscape. And so, nothing about the the landscape. And so, what they were trying to do was making what they were trying to do was making what they were trying to do was making that information easily digested and that information easily digested and that information easily digested and accessible. accessible. accessible. And they were trying to digest a large And they were trying to digest a large And they were trying to digest a large number of considerations that you might number of considerations that you might number of considerations that you might take as important to make information take as important to make information take as important to make information accessible to me. That's That's what accessible to me. That's That's what accessible to me. That's That's what portability is. Portability is portability is. Portability is portability is. Portability is accessibility. And so, what you get is accessibility. And so, what you get is accessibility. And so, what you get is actually [clears throat] the big vision actually [clears throat] the big vision actually [clears throat] the big vision is that there's this massive trade-off is that there's this massive trade-off is that there's this massive trade-off between making that information highly between making that information highly between making that information highly digestible and accessible so that digestible and accessible so that digestible and accessible so that everyone can have it everyone can have it everyone can have it and simplifying it and removing and simplifying it and removing and simplifying it and removing dimensionality from it in order to make dimensionality from it in order to make dimensionality from it in order to make it accessible. it accessible. it accessible. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I think the real >> And I think the real >> And I think the real the real the real the real the really terrifying part for me the really terrifying part for me the really terrifying part for me in some sense, if it turned out that in some sense, if it turned out that in some sense, if it turned out that metrics were just evil, the metrics were just evil, the metrics were just evil, the mustache-twirling villain of the story, mustache-twirling villain of the story, mustache-twirling villain of the story, and we could just move beyond them and we could just move beyond them and we could just move beyond them things would be I can imagine a utopia. things would be I can imagine a utopia. things would be I can imagine a utopia. But what Porter teaches me is something But what Porter teaches me is something But what Porter teaches me is something more painful, which is that there's a more painful, which is that there's a more painful, which is that there's a thing we need thing we need thing we need that we have to have that we have to have that we have to have which we have to pay an enormous cost which we have to pay an enormous cost which we have to pay an enormous cost for. for. for. And that's like that that that's that's And that's like that that that's that's And that's like that that that's that's an essential feature of our life an essential feature of our life an essential feature of our life together that in order to communicate together that in order to communicate together that in order to communicate with each other at scale, we need these with each other at scale, we need these with each other at scale, we need these hyper-simplified, highly portable hyper-simplified, highly portable hyper-simplified, highly portable things, and that's that is the glue that things, and that's that is the glue that things, and that's that is the glue that binds us together, and it's a very binds us together, and it's a very binds us together, and it's a very costly glue. costly glue. costly glue. >> Yeah. I love that, and >> Yeah. I love that, and >> Yeah. I love that, and you know, I'm I'm not trying to you know, I'm I'm not trying to you know, I'm I'm not trying to like you say the metrics are really good like you say the metrics are really good like you say the metrics are really good or bad, it's just understanding or bad, it's just understanding or bad, it's just understanding what that metric is good for. what that metric is good for. what that metric is good for. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Being aware of that, and also >> Being aware of that, and also >> Being aware of that, and also understanding what it's not good for. understanding what it's not good for. understanding what it's not good for. So, let's take the So, let's take the So, let's take the I don't know, I guess schools, right? I don't know, I guess schools, right? I don't know, I guess schools, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh not everyone gets to choose what >> Uh not everyone gets to choose what >> Uh not everyone gets to choose what school their children go to. You I I school their children go to. You I I school their children go to. You I I understand that. understand that. understand that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But I think with schools, what I've come >> But I think with schools, what I've come >> But I think with schools, what I've come to conclusion that that it's not that to conclusion that that it's not that to conclusion that that it's not that there's no such thing as a good school, there's no such thing as a good school, there's no such thing as a good school, of course there is. of course there is. of course there is. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But >> But >> But for me if you have the choice for me if you have the choice for me if you have the choice it's more about what is the right school it's more about what is the right school it's more about what is the right school for my child. for my child. for my child. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right? It's subtly different. >> Right? It's subtly different. >> Right? It's subtly different. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> That the school can look great on paper. >> That the school can look great on paper. >> That the school can look great on paper. You go, "Oh, you know, people here, they You go, "Oh, you know, people here, they You go, "Oh, you know, people here, they get these grades, and they go to this get these grades, and they go to this get these grades, and they go to this university, whatever it might be." Yeah, university, whatever it might be." Yeah, university, whatever it might be." Yeah, but is it the right school for the but is it the right school for the but is it the right school for the qualities that my child has? qualities that my child has? qualities that my child has? >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And again, I as I say, not everyone has >> And again, I as I say, not everyone has >> And again, I as I say, not everyone has the choice, but it's an example that we the choice, but it's an example that we the choice, but it's an example that we can use. There's just a couple of things can use. There's just a couple of things can use. There's just a couple of things you said there which you said there which you said there which I find interesting. You Of course, I find interesting. You Of course, I find interesting. You Of course, metrics have a value. But, there's also that hidden cost. You But, there's also that hidden cost. You mentioned politicians, and I guess mentioned politicians, and I guess mentioned politicians, and I guess through the lens of health, through the lens of health, through the lens of health, you know, when an election comes around, you know, when an election comes around, you know, when an election comes around, one of the big things in this country one of the big things in this country one of the big things in this country will be the National Health Service. will be the National Health Service. will be the National Health Service. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And no doubt, >> And no doubt, >> And no doubt, each party each party each party will choose the metrics that are most will choose the metrics that are most will choose the metrics that are most favorable to them. So, they may choose, favorable to them. So, they may choose, favorable to them. So, they may choose, for example, how many people when they for example, how many people when they for example, how many people when they come to the A&E or the ER get seen come to the A&E or the ER get seen come to the A&E or the ER get seen within 4 hours. within 4 hours. within 4 hours. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Right? >> Right? >> Right? And have we made that better since the And have we made that better since the And have we made that better since the last party was in? last party was in? last party was in? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But, you The problem is is you can cheat >> But, you The problem is is you can cheat >> But, you The problem is is you can cheat that metric a million different ways, that metric a million different ways, that metric a million different ways, right? You can just churn people in, right? You can just churn people in, right? You can just churn people in, give them, you know, what extreme is give them, you know, what extreme is give them, you know, what extreme is give them really poor care, give them really poor care, give them really poor care, but cheat the system so that actually no but cheat the system so that actually no but cheat the system so that actually no one waited for more than 4 hours, right? one waited for more than 4 hours, right? one waited for more than 4 hours, right? So, by the metric that you're getting So, by the metric that you're getting So, by the metric that you're getting told, oh, wow, this party came in and told, oh, wow, this party came in and told, oh, wow, this party came in and actually no one's having to wait more actually no one's having to wait more actually no one's having to wait more than 4 hours anymore. But, what if the than 4 hours anymore. But, what if the than 4 hours anymore. But, what if the cost of that is that everyone's getting cost of that is that everyone's getting cost of that is that everyone's getting poor quality care? I mean, that's quite poor quality care? I mean, that's quite poor quality care? I mean, that's quite an extreme example, but I feel an extreme example, but I feel an extreme example, but I feel it's super relevant. The other thing you it's super relevant. The other thing you it's super relevant. The other thing you said, which I I really want to talk to said, which I I really want to talk to said, which I I really want to talk to you about, you about, you about, is the scientific method. is the scientific method. is the scientific method. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> So, yeah, the scientific >> So, yeah, the scientific >> So, yeah, the scientific data would generally try and tell you on average, try and tell you on average, this is the best diet. On average, this this is the best diet. On average, this this is the best diet. On average, this is the right approach to take. is the right approach to take. is the right approach to take. But, even if If look into those But, even if If look into those But, even if If look into those individual studies, you'd go, "Well, individual studies, you'd go, "Well, individual studies, you'd go, "Well, yeah, but not everyone thrived on that yeah, but not everyone thrived on that yeah, but not everyone thrived on that diet." diet." diet." You know, that was just the average. So, You know, that was just the average. So, You know, that was just the average. So, this is the difference for me between this is the difference for me between this is the difference for me between population medicine population medicine population medicine and precision personalized medicine, and precision personalized medicine, and precision personalized medicine, right? And so, one of my favorite parts right? And so, one of my favorite parts right? And so, one of my favorite parts of the book was the chapter on of the book was the chapter on of the book was the chapter on mechanical values. So, let me just mechanical values. So, let me just mechanical values. So, let me just explain what mechanical value is. explain what mechanical value is. explain what mechanical value is. And then I want to talk about And then I want to talk about And then I want to talk about principles, right? Because principles, right? Because principles, right? Because I really resonate with this section, I really resonate with this section, I really resonate with this section, which is one of the reasons why I which is one of the reasons why I which is one of the reasons why I thought I always have had these thought I always have had these thought I always have had these I wouldn't say difficult conversations I wouldn't say difficult conversations I wouldn't say difficult conversations with my publishers over the years. Not with my publishers over the years. Not with my publishers over the years. Not difficult at all, but I've always said difficult at all, but I've always said difficult at all, but I've always said I can't prescribe people a plan because I can't prescribe people a plan because I can't prescribe people a plan because I don't know who they are. What I can I don't know who they are. What I can I don't know who they are. What I can write about are principles, not write about are principles, not write about are principles, not protocols, protocols, protocols, right? right? right? This principle holds true, but you need This principle holds true, but you need This principle holds true, but you need to adapt that principle in the context to adapt that principle in the context to adapt that principle in the context of your life. So, talk to me about of your life. So, talk to me about of your life. So, talk to me about mechanical values, then we can maybe mechanical values, then we can maybe mechanical values, then we can maybe talk about principles. talk about principles. talk about principles. >> Hold hold on. Before we do mechanical >> Hold hold on. Before we do mechanical >> Hold hold on. Before we do mechanical values, you said a bunch of stuff. I values, you said a bunch of stuff. I values, you said a bunch of stuff. I really want to Let's back up cuz I really want to Let's back up cuz I really want to Let's back up cuz I We have to talk about mechanical values, We have to talk about mechanical values, We have to talk about mechanical values, but there's You said so much interesting but there's You said so much interesting but there's You said so much interesting stuff. So, the stuff. So, the stuff. So, the There are two things I really want to There are two things I really want to There are two things I really want to talk about in what you said. talk about in what you said. talk about in what you said. Um Um Um One thing One thing One thing to think is to think is to think is what are metrics good at picking up and what are metrics good at picking up and what are metrics good at picking up and what are they bad at picking up? And I what are they bad at picking up? And I what are they bad at picking up? And I think we already get a stor- a story think we already get a stor- a story think we already get a stor- a story from Porter. What they're good at from Porter. What they're good at from Porter. What they're good at picking up is things that are invariant picking up is things that are invariant picking up is things that are invariant between people that everyone can detect, between people that everyone can detect, between people that everyone can detect, that don't take particular sensitivity that don't take particular sensitivity that don't take particular sensitivity or context to detect. This is why or context to detect. This is why or context to detect. This is why uh uh uh we aim at lifespan over happiness. And I we aim at lifespan over happiness. And I we aim at lifespan over happiness. And I I want I want I want to notice something I want I want I want to notice something I want I want I want to notice something really important here. really important here. really important here. People talk like happiness or joy People talk like happiness or joy People talk like happiness or joy is is is intangible or impossible to track or intangible or impossible to track or intangible or impossible to track or like some evanescent magic, it's really like some evanescent magic, it's really like some evanescent magic, it's really obvious. obvious. obvious. You know when you're happy, and you know You know when you're happy, and you know You know when you're happy, and you know when you're depressed. It's like one of when you're depressed. It's like one of when you're depressed. It's like one of the most obvious things in the world. It the most obvious things in the world. It the most obvious things in the world. It is radiantly at the forefront. is radiantly at the forefront. is radiantly at the forefront. And it actually I think takes a long And it actually I think takes a long And it actually I think takes a long process of socialization for us to be process of socialization for us to be process of socialization for us to be willing to ignore that stuff in favor of willing to ignore that stuff in favor of willing to ignore that stuff in favor of the measurable. the measurable. the measurable. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, what what makes the measurable the >> So, what what makes the measurable the >> So, what what makes the measurable the measurable is not how loud it is, measurable is not how loud it is, measurable is not how loud it is, right? right? right? Happiness is really loud. Despair is Happiness is really loud. Despair is Happiness is really loud. Despair is really loud. It's also not I mean, really loud. It's also not I mean, really loud. It's also not I mean, people One of the funny things is when I people One of the funny things is when I people One of the funny things is when I when I give the cheese example, for a when I give the cheese example, for a when I give the cheese example, for a long time I'd talk about like length of long time I'd talk about like length of long time I'd talk about like length of life versus joy in food. And people life versus joy in food. And people life versus joy in food. And people would be like, "Well, you can't just you would be like, "Well, you can't just you would be like, "Well, you can't just you know, you can't really weight those know, you can't really weight those know, you can't really weight those intangibles." And I would accept that intangibles." And I would accept that intangibles." And I would accept that language, and then I thought, language, and then I thought, language, and then I thought, "Wait, cheese is intangible? "Wait, cheese is intangible? "Wait, cheese is intangible? What is more tangible than eating a god What is more tangible than eating a god What is more tangible than eating a god damn mouthful of brie?" And what is damn mouthful of brie?" And what is damn mouthful of brie?" And what is right? What what we've come to think is right? What what we've come to think is right? What what we've come to think is that word come to us so easily cuz we've that word come to us so easily cuz we've that word come to us so easily cuz we've replaced replaced replaced our sense of reality. We've replaced like concrete things with We've replaced like concrete things with what's easy to abstract. what's easy to abstract. what's easy to abstract. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, the thing that makes something >> So, the thing that makes something >> So, the thing that makes something countable is it's kind of invariant countable is it's kind of invariant countable is it's kind of invariant across context and easy noticeability across context and easy noticeability across context and easy noticeability across context, which tells us exactly across context, which tells us exactly across context, which tells us exactly what metrics are bad at picking up, what metrics are bad at picking up, what metrics are bad at picking up, which is anything that is highly which is anything that is highly which is anything that is highly variable, highly context dependent, variable, highly context dependent, variable, highly context dependent, including for example your particular including for example your particular including for example your particular personality. I think your example is personality. I think your example is personality. I think your example is exactly right about picking which kid to exactly right about picking which kid to exactly right about picking which kid to go to which school because when we use a go to which school because when we use a go to which school because when we use a metric like the US like a college metric like the US like a college metric like the US like a college ranking, ranking, ranking, we're applying we're applying we're applying measures measures measures that have been put there that have been put there that have been put there because they're approximations of what because they're approximations of what because they're approximations of what everybody thinks. They've been everybody thinks. They've been everybody thinks. They've been de-particularized. de-particularized. de-particularized. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Hayek famously said uh >> Hayek famously said uh >> Hayek famously said uh a central policy can never target any a central policy can never target any a central policy can never target any particular person, It can only target particular person, It can only target particular person, It can only target the average person. Right? I think the average person. Right? I think the average person. Right? I think that's that's very close to what you're that's that's very close to what you're that's that's very close to what you're saying. So, that's that's one big thing saying. So, that's that's one big thing saying. So, that's that's one big thing I was thinking with from what you're I was thinking with from what you're I was thinking with from what you're saying. The other big thing is I think saying. The other big thing is I think saying. The other big thing is I think the idea that every metric is the idea that every metric is the idea that every metric is interested. And I think this is a interested. And I think this is a interested. And I think this is a This is a This is a This is a >> What do you mean interested? >> What do you mean interested? >> What do you mean interested? >> So, this is an enormous thing I learned >> So, this is an enormous thing I learned >> So, this is an enormous thing I learned from a bunch of these scholars I'm from a bunch of these scholars I'm from a bunch of these scholars I'm talking about in science and technology talking about in science and technology talking about in science and technology studies. And that one of the big views studies. And that one of the big views studies. And that one of the big views from that from that from that world is that people think that world is that people think that world is that people think that technologies and systems technologies and systems technologies and systems like systems of representation like like systems of representation like like systems of representation like metrics, they think they're neutral. metrics, they think they're neutral. metrics, they think they're neutral. They think they're objective. They think They think they're objective. They think They think they're objective. They think People tend to think that People tend to think that People tend to think that metrics are objective. And what the metrics are objective. And what the metrics are objective. And what the people from science and technology people from science and technology people from science and technology studies have taught me studies have taught me studies have taught me is that is that is that different technologies different technologies different technologies and different ways of representing the and different ways of representing the and different ways of representing the world world world are deeply value-laden and deeply are deeply value-laden and deeply are deeply value-laden and deeply represent a specific perspective and a represent a specific perspective and a represent a specific perspective and a specific value system on the world. So, specific value system on the world. So, specific value system on the world. So, um um um the the the the easiest example for me is to back the easiest example for me is to back the easiest example for me is to back away from data for a moment and think away from data for a moment and think away from data for a moment and think about maps, right? There's a way in about maps, right? There's a way in about maps, right? There's a way in which a map just looks like here's the which a map just looks like here's the which a map just looks like here's the world. But every map world. But every map world. But every map is a selection procedure, right? What is a selection procedure, right? What is a selection procedure, right? What maps do maps do maps do not as an accident, but as an intrinsic not as an accident, but as an intrinsic not as an accident, but as an intrinsic part of their function is they leave out part of their function is they leave out part of their function is they leave out most of the world, right? A map that most of the world, right? A map that most of the world, right? A map that includes every detail in the world is includes every detail in the world is includes every detail in the world is useless. It's the world. What maps do is useless. It's the world. What maps do is useless. It's the world. What maps do is highlight certain things and delete highlight certain things and delete highlight certain things and delete other things. That highlighting is a other things. That highlighting is a other things. That highlighting is a choice, right? It represents some choice, right? It represents some choice, right? It represents some interest and it deletes others. interest and it deletes others. interest and it deletes others. >> Okay, if I think about the map of the >> Okay, if I think about the map of the >> Okay, if I think about the map of the world world world >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> well, it's it's prioritizing borders of >> well, it's it's prioritizing borders of >> well, it's it's prioritizing borders of countries. countries. countries. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> It's prioritizing big cities. >> It's prioritizing big cities. >> It's prioritizing big cities. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> It might prioritize high mountains. >> It might prioritize high mountains. >> It might prioritize high mountains. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> But >> But >> But yeah, and it and it kind of feeds this yeah, and it and it kind of feeds this yeah, and it and it kind of feeds this idea of metrics like all metrics do idea of metrics like all metrics do idea of metrics like all metrics do something, but they don't do other something, but they don't do other something, but they don't do other things. things. things. >> Yes, exactly. The Dennis Wood who wrote >> Yes, exactly. The Dennis Wood who wrote >> Yes, exactly. The Dennis Wood who wrote the book The Power of Maps has this the book The Power of Maps has this the book The Power of Maps has this moment that my students love, where he moment that my students love, where he moment that my students love, where he says like, "Why don't our maps show says like, "Why don't our maps show says like, "Why don't our maps show sound quality?" sound quality?" sound quality?" And he says that most of the maps we And he says that most of the maps we And he says that most of the maps we have represent two major interests. They have represent two major interests. They have represent two major interests. They tell us where the property lines are and tell us where the property lines are and tell us where the property lines are and the political borders, and they tell us the political borders, and they tell us the political borders, and they tell us how to commute to places in cars. That's how to commute to places in cars. That's how to commute to places in cars. That's what they're really good at. And they what they're really good at. And they what they're really good at. And they don't tell us where the nice spots are don't tell us where the nice spots are don't tell us where the nice spots are that sound nice or feel nice and have that sound nice or feel nice and have that sound nice or feel nice and have rich ecosystems, right? So, I think it's rich ecosystems, right? So, I think it's rich ecosystems, right? So, I think it's really clear there to show that maps really clear there to show that maps really clear there to show that maps show an interest, right? Based on prior show an interest, right? Based on prior show an interest, right? Based on prior decisions about what decisions about what decisions about what they've collected and what So, what they've collected and what So, what they've collected and what So, what information is collected and displayed information is collected and displayed information is collected and displayed and which is hidden. And I think what I and which is hidden. And I think what I and which is hidden. And I think what I want to say is the same is true of want to say is the same is true of want to say is the same is true of metrics. It's not that they're lying. metrics. It's not that they're lying. metrics. It's not that they're lying. Like, maps are showing things that are Like, maps are showing things that are Like, maps are showing things that are real. It's that any data system has all real. It's that any data system has all real. It's that any data system has all already represents prior decisions about already represents prior decisions about already represents prior decisions about what's worth what's worth what's worth noticing and measuring. So, Geoffrey noticing and measuring. So, Geoffrey noticing and measuring. So, Geoffrey Bowker and Susan Leigh Star have this Bowker and Susan Leigh Star have this Bowker and Susan Leigh Star have this incredible book that I think you should incredible book that I think you should incredible book that I think you should read called Sorting Things Out. And they read called Sorting Things Out. And they read called Sorting Things Out. And they talk about They think one of the big talk about They think one of the big talk about They think one of the big roots of this is what's in the roots of this is what's in the roots of this is what's in the classificatory structure that underlies classificatory structure that underlies classificatory structure that underlies data collection. So, one of their core data collection. So, one of their core data collection. So, one of their core examples is they study the ICD-10, the examples is they study the ICD-10, the examples is they study the ICD-10, the the, you know, international manual that the, you know, international manual that the, you know, international manual that gives different codes to accidents gives different codes to accidents gives different codes to accidents um and mortal and uh cause of death. And um and mortal and uh cause of death. And um and mortal and uh cause of death. And they point out they point out they point out that that that uh So, they look at the falls coding and uh So, they look at the falls coding and uh So, they look at the falls coding and they point out for urban falls, there they point out for urban falls, there they point out for urban falls, there are separate distinct codes for are separate distinct codes for are separate distinct codes for fall from a balcony, fall from fall from a balcony, fall from fall from a balcony, fall from playground equipment, fall from hospital playground equipment, fall from hospital playground equipment, fall from hospital equipment, fall from a commode, fall equipment, fall from a commode, fall equipment, fall from a commode, fall down an escalator, fall down There are down an escalator, fall down There are down an escalator, fall down There are different codes for all of this. And for different codes for all of this. And for different codes for all of this. And for urban falls, there's fall from a cliff urban falls, there's fall from a cliff urban falls, there's fall from a cliff and fall other. And that's it. and fall other. And that's it. and fall other. And that's it. Right? That system Right? That system Right? That system has very high granularity for urban has very high granularity for urban has very high granularity for urban accidents and very low granularity accidents and very low granularity accidents and very low granularity for rural accidents. So, it I mean, it for rural accidents. So, it I mean, it for rural accidents. So, it I mean, it that system displays what it cares about that system displays what it cares about that system displays what it cares about and what it doesn't. I mean, here's and what it doesn't. I mean, here's and what it doesn't. I mean, here's here's another This is an example I I here's another This is an example I I here's another This is an example I I just just just has been staring me in the face forever has been staring me in the face forever has been staring me in the face forever that I that I that I hadn't realized until like a week ago hadn't realized until like a week ago hadn't realized until like a week ago cuz we were talking about this with my cuz we were talking about this with my cuz we were talking about this with my students. students. students. Intelligence tests Intelligence tests Intelligence tests automatically are intelligence tests automatically are intelligence tests automatically are intelligence tests right now highly weight logical, right now highly weight logical, right now highly weight logical, mathematical, and abstract skill. mathematical, and abstract skill. mathematical, and abstract skill. They don't rate emotional sensitivity at They don't rate emotional sensitivity at They don't rate emotional sensitivity at all. all. all. Right? Like, doesn't this reveal Right? Like, doesn't this reveal Right? Like, doesn't this reveal something about the values embedded in something about the values embedded in something about the values embedded in the system that the thing that we call the system that the thing that we call the system that the thing that we call an intelligence test that is measuring an intelligence test that is measuring an intelligence test that is measuring someone's intellectual capacity has no someone's intellectual capacity has no someone's intellectual capacity has no nothing in it that tracks your ability nothing in it that tracks your ability nothing in it that tracks your ability to empathize or be aware of other to empathize or be aware of other to empathize or be aware of other people's emotions. people's emotions. people's emotions. >> Is it the Is this a quote Is it >> Is it the Is this a quote Is it >> Is it the Is this a quote Is it attributed to Einstein? If you judge a attributed to Einstein? If you judge a attributed to Einstein? If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, fish by its ability to climb a tree, fish by its ability to climb a tree, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> you'll believe it's stupid. Or something >> you'll believe it's stupid. Or something >> you'll believe it's stupid. Or something to that degree, right? to that degree, right? to that degree, right? >> Yeah, but let me let me level up that >> Yeah, but let me let me level up that >> Yeah, but let me let me level up that thought. A, if you judge a fish by its thought. A, if you judge a fish by its thought. A, if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, you'll think ability to climb a tree, you'll think ability to climb a tree, you'll think it's stupid. B, our intelligence tests it's stupid. B, our intelligence tests it's stupid. B, our intelligence tests are making one decision about how are making one decision about how are making one decision about how everyone should be judged everyone should be judged everyone should be judged and applying that univocally and and applying that univocally and and applying that univocally and unchangingly. So, it's like taking that unchangingly. So, it's like taking that unchangingly. So, it's like taking that decision that a particular decision that decision that a particular decision that decision that a particular decision that rates one thing one set of abilities rates one thing one set of abilities rates one thing one set of abilities very highly and very lowly and another very highly and very lowly and another very highly and very lowly and another very lowly and then building that very lowly and then building that very lowly and then building that into the kind of into the kind of into the kind of background air of the data we swim in. background air of the data we swim in. background air of the data we swim in. >> Yeah, but this is this is why come back >> Yeah, but this is this is why come back >> Yeah, but this is this is why come back to the school system for a minute. to the school system for a minute. to the school system for a minute. Schools work really well for some kids Schools work really well for some kids Schools work really well for some kids >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> and really poorly for other kids, right? >> and really poorly for other kids, right? >> and really poorly for other kids, right? If you If you If you fit [snorts] that model of what the fit [snorts] that model of what the fit [snorts] that model of what the modern schooling system, certainly I can modern schooling system, certainly I can modern schooling system, certainly I can talk about in the UK talk about in the UK talk about in the UK or in the US, these these sort of or in the US, these these sort of or in the US, these these sort of Western countries, Western countries, Western countries, um um um you know, you may thrive at school you know, you may thrive at school you know, you may thrive at school because because because your skill set is aligned with what they your skill set is aligned with what they your skill set is aligned with what they deem to be important. And we all know deem to be important. And we all know deem to be important. And we all know the cases of children who the cases of children who the cases of children who are supremely talented, are supremely talented, are supremely talented, >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> but the school measurements of success >> but the school measurements of success >> but the school measurements of success don't suit them. don't suit them. don't suit them. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> So, they leave school thinking they're >> So, they leave school thinking they're >> So, they leave school thinking they're stupid when it was never that they were stupid when it was never that they were stupid when it was never that they were stupid. It's just the wrong metric was stupid. It's just the wrong metric was stupid. It's just the wrong metric was used used used >> to assess them. >> to assess them. >> to assess them. >> Yeah, there So, there two There two >> Yeah, there So, there two There two >> Yeah, there So, there two There two things to say. I think this is exactly things to say. I think this is exactly things to say. I think this is exactly right. The first thing to say right. The first thing to say right. The first thing to say is that um So, we have like one of the is that um So, we have like one of the is that um So, we have like one of the big answers now. I think that we've been big answers now. I think that we've been big answers now. I think that we've been stumbling around for us. So, the answer stumbling around for us. So, the answer stumbling around for us. So, the answer isn't the metrics are bad. The answer is isn't the metrics are bad. The answer is isn't the metrics are bad. The answer is that every metric represents a specific that every metric represents a specific that every metric represents a specific set of interest and highlights a set of interest and highlights a set of interest and highlights a specific set of features and expresses a specific set of features and expresses a specific set of features and expresses a particular value system. So, for particular value system. So, for particular value system. So, for example, the our intelligence measures example, the our intelligence measures example, the our intelligence measures express the value of express the value of express the value of logical and abstract logical and abstract logical and abstract thinking is important. thinking is important. thinking is important. Emotional artistic thinking is Emotional artistic thinking is Emotional artistic thinking is unimportant. That's embedded in that unimportant. That's embedded in that unimportant. That's embedded in that system. system. system. That I'm not saying that's bad. The That I'm not saying that's bad. The That I'm not saying that's bad. The first thing is to say is you just have first thing is to say is you just have first thing is to say is you just have to be careful about to be careful about to be careful about the tools you're using. the tools you're using. the tools you're using. If you think they're just neutral If you think they're just neutral If you think they're just neutral representations of the world, if you representations of the world, if you representations of the world, if you forget that they represent specific forget that they represent specific forget that they represent specific interests and already represent a prior interests and already represent a prior interests and already represent a prior focus of attention. Maybe that's one way focus of attention. Maybe that's one way focus of attention. Maybe that's one way to put it. They're decisions about what to put it. They're decisions about what to put it. They're decisions about what to attend to attend to and what they're to attend to attend to and what they're to attend to attend to and what they're worth paying attention to and what's worth paying attention to and what's worth paying attention to and what's worth remembering and what's worth worth remembering and what's worth worth remembering and what's worth noticing built in noticing built in noticing built in to the infrastructure of our data to the infrastructure of our data to the infrastructure of our data collection systems. And they can be used collection systems. And they can be used collection systems. And they can be used well when you are aware of the well when you are aware of the well when you are aware of the of the biases and interests in each of of the biases and interests in each of of the biases and interests in each of your tools and you're willing to select your tools and you're willing to select your tools and you're willing to select the right tool for the job. But we the right tool for the job. But we the right tool for the job. But we forget that. We just pick tools thinking forget that. We just pick tools thinking forget that. We just pick tools thinking they're they're they're true representations of a neutral world true representations of a neutral world true representations of a neutral world and then all those I mean and then all those I mean and then all those I mean selections selections selections bleed into our decision system. So, I bleed into our decision system. So, I bleed into our decision system. So, I think an example would be if you just think an example would be if you just think an example would be if you just walk around sorting people via the IQ walk around sorting people via the IQ walk around sorting people via the IQ test, then without even thinking about test, then without even thinking about test, then without even thinking about it, you are carrying that bias in favor it, you are carrying that bias in favor it, you are carrying that bias in favor of the logical and mathematical over the of the logical and mathematical over the of the logical and mathematical over the emotional into your decision-making emotional into your decision-making emotional into your decision-making process. And then, the second thing is process. And then, the second thing is process. And then, the second thing is the thing that you're talking about. So, the thing that you're talking about. So, the thing that you're talking about. So, if we build if we build if we build the way that Bowker and Star put it is the way that Bowker and Star put it is the way that Bowker and Star put it is that when a lot of these decisions that when a lot of these decisions that when a lot of these decisions enter, they say, "information enter, they say, "information enter, they say, "information infrastructure," infrastructure," infrastructure," they become background and they they they become background and they they they become background and they they become naturalized. We start thinking become naturalized. We start thinking become naturalized. We start thinking that's the that's that's the way things that's the that's that's the way things that's the that's that's the way things are. So, instead of thinking, "Oh, we are. So, instead of thinking, "Oh, we are. So, instead of thinking, "Oh, we have this particular intelligence test have this particular intelligence test have this particular intelligence test that was built at a particular time to that was built at a particular time to that was built at a particular time to in which we wanted to boost STEM, and so in which we wanted to boost STEM, and so in which we wanted to boost STEM, and so we emphasize that, we think, "No, this we emphasize that, we think, "No, this we emphasize that, we think, "No, this is the way the world is. Smart people is the way the world is. Smart people is the way the world is. Smart people are good at math, are good at math, are good at math, dumb people, dumb people, dumb people, if you're not good at math, you're if you're not good at math, you're if you're not good at math, you're dumb." And so, that kind of that that's dumb." And so, that kind of that that's dumb." And so, that kind of that that's a subtle social process by which a a subtle social process by which a a subtle social process by which a particular particular particular set of values gets built into a set of values gets built into a set of values gets built into a large-scale system, and then if we're large-scale system, and then if we're large-scale system, and then if we're not cautious of that, we could intake not cautious of that, we could intake not cautious of that, we could intake that and suddenly be guided by value that and suddenly be guided by value that and suddenly be guided by value decisions made by some other person for decisions made by some other person for decisions made by some other person for some distant reasons that we don't even some distant reasons that we don't even some distant reasons that we don't even know is guiding us anymore. know is guiding us anymore. know is guiding us anymore. >> And that's there's no question to me one >> And that's there's no question to me one >> And that's there's no question to me one of the major reasons so many people of the major reasons so many people of the major reasons so many people are struggling in their life and feel are struggling in their life and feel are struggling in their life and feel unhappy unhappy unhappy is because their values have been is because their values have been is because their values have been captured and more importantly, they're captured and more importantly, they're captured and more importantly, they're not aware that their values have been not aware that their values have been not aware that their values have been captured. captured. captured. This is a theme, T, that keeps coming up This is a theme, T, that keeps coming up This is a theme, T, that keeps coming up on the show with regularity because it's on the show with regularity because it's on the show with regularity because it's something I'm so passionate about something I'm so passionate about something I'm so passionate about because because because I think for much of my life, my values I think for much of my life, my values I think for much of my life, my values were captured. You know, you shared in were captured. You know, you shared in were captured. You know, you shared in in the book about, you know, being in the book about, you know, being in the book about, you know, being brought up in the US brought up in the US brought up in the US in a family of Asian immigrants. Well, I in a family of Asian immigrants. Well, I in a family of Asian immigrants. Well, I I brought up in the UK, and my parents I brought up in the UK, and my parents I brought up in the UK, and my parents are immigrants from India, and so are immigrants from India, and so are immigrants from India, and so there's a certain there's a certain there's a certain trait that gets valued, which is trait that gets valued, which is trait that gets valued, which is academic excellence. And that's is academic excellence. And that's is academic excellence. And that's is great, but it also can come at a cost. great, but it also can come at a cost. great, but it also can come at a cost. And for me, the cost was that I thought And for me, the cost was that I thought And for me, the cost was that I thought that my self-worth as an individual was that my self-worth as an individual was that my self-worth as an individual was contingent on academic success. contingent on academic success. contingent on academic success. Pros and cons. Pros are you get a ton of Pros and cons. Pros are you get a ton of Pros and cons. Pros are you get a ton of academic success. Cons are academic success. Cons are academic success. Cons are you need that level of success to you need that level of success to you need that level of success to continue in order to feel good about continue in order to feel good about continue in order to feel good about yourself, which is highly problematic, yourself, which is highly problematic, yourself, which is highly problematic, but but but I would say the I would say the I would say the for me, the kind of for me, the kind of for me, the kind of hopeful points about this hopeful points about this hopeful points about this is that once you understand this, once is that once you understand this, once is that once you understand this, once you see through it, you're like, "Oh, you see through it, you're like, "Oh, you see through it, you're like, "Oh, wait a minute. wait a minute. wait a minute. Where did these ideas and values come Where did these ideas and values come Where did these ideas and values come from? Are they the values by which I from? Are they the values by which I from? Are they the values by which I want to live my life? If not, can I want to live my life? If not, can I want to live my life? If not, can I start to change them?" start to change them?" start to change them?" I think you start to generate a snowball I think you start to generate a snowball I think you start to generate a snowball in the other direction. That's very much in the other direction. That's very much in the other direction. That's very much what I've done in my life, and I shared what I've done in my life, and I shared what I've done in my life, and I shared with you when you just popped into the with you when you just popped into the with you when you just popped into the house before we started recording that house before we started recording that house before we started recording that the trigger for me to start questioning the trigger for me to start questioning the trigger for me to start questioning everything was the death of my dad in everything was the death of my dad in everything was the death of my dad in 2013. 2013. 2013. Until that point, I Until that point, I Until that point, I I didn't have time. I had no real reason I didn't have time. I had no real reason I didn't have time. I had no real reason to start questioning everything about my to start questioning everything about my to start questioning everything about my life. But that moment life. But that moment life. But that moment for the first time, it got me to stop for the first time, it got me to stop for the first time, it got me to stop looking externally looking externally looking externally and to start looking internally, right? and to start looking internally, right? and to start looking internally, right? And I think a lot of what we're talking And I think a lot of what we're talking And I think a lot of what we're talking about today about today about today and a lot of what your book is about is and a lot of what your book is about is and a lot of what your book is about is is really that challenge and that sort is really that challenge and that sort is really that challenge and that sort of tension between external and of tension between external and of tension between external and internal. The metric is something that internal. The metric is something that internal. The metric is something that can be easily seen externally. can be easily seen externally. can be easily seen externally. But But But often what truly matters to us as often what truly matters to us as often what truly matters to us as individuals is what we can individuals is what we can individuals is what we can experience on the inside. I mean, life I experience on the inside. I mean, life I experience on the inside. I mean, life I was telling to son last night over was telling to son last night over was telling to son last night over dinner, I was trying to explain to him dinner, I was trying to explain to him dinner, I was trying to explain to him the philosophies in your book, right? the philosophies in your book, right? the philosophies in your book, right? And it was quite hard for me to try and And it was quite hard for me to try and And it was quite hard for me to try and simplify it. simplify it. simplify it. But I said, "Hey son, listen, you've got But I said, "Hey son, listen, you've got But I said, "Hey son, listen, you've got to understand that to understand that to understand that life is experienced on the inside." life is experienced on the inside." life is experienced on the inside." And it's an early thought I have that And it's an early thought I have that And it's an early thought I have that I'm sort of haven't quite [snorts] I'm sort of haven't quite [snorts] I'm sort of haven't quite [snorts] finished my kind of processing off. But I really think most of life or all But I really think most of life or all of life on an individual level is is how of life on an individual level is is how of life on an individual level is is how we experience it. And a lot of that we experience it. And a lot of that we experience it. And a lot of that cannot be seen by the outside. So, by cannot be seen by the outside. So, by cannot be seen by the outside. So, by its very nature, external metrics, they its very nature, external metrics, they its very nature, external metrics, they may be useful, they may be helpful in may be useful, they may be helpful in may be useful, they may be helpful in some scenarios. some scenarios. some scenarios. But none of them or very few of them But none of them or very few of them But none of them or very few of them help tell you help tell you help tell you how you're experiencing the world, how how you're experiencing the world, how how you're experiencing the world, how you're experiencing those metrics. I you're experiencing those metrics. I you're experiencing those metrics. I don't know if, you know, don't know if, you know, don't know if, you know, >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> rock climbing, you start the book >> rock climbing, you start the book >> rock climbing, you start the book talking about rock climbing. You also talking about rock climbing. You also talking about rock climbing. You also bring up yoga a couple of times bring up yoga a couple of times bring up yoga a couple of times throughout the book. And I kind of feel throughout the book. And I kind of feel throughout the book. And I kind of feel that those two examples that those two examples that those two examples really illustrate this point of external really illustrate this point of external really illustrate this point of external v internal. Can you just share, if you v internal. Can you just share, if you v internal. Can you just share, if you will, share the story about rock will, share the story about rock will, share the story about rock climbing that you open the book with? climbing that you open the book with? climbing that you open the book with? >> Have you tried to meditate before? >> Have you tried to meditate before? >> Have you tried to meditate before? Perhaps you've heard about some of the Perhaps you've heard about some of the Perhaps you've heard about some of the benefits like reducing stress and benefits like reducing stress and benefits like reducing stress and increased focus. And you've given it a increased focus. And you've given it a increased focus. And you've given it a go and thought it's not the practice for go and thought it's not the practice for go and thought it's not the practice for you. you. you. Well, I believe that may well be because Well, I believe that may well be because Well, I believe that may well be because you have not tried the right approach. you have not tried the right approach. you have not tried the right approach. The Way is the only meditation app with The Way is the only meditation app with The Way is the only meditation app with a single long-term pathway. You're not a single long-term pathway. You're not a single long-term pathway. You're not forced to make loads of choices each forced to make loads of choices each forced to make loads of choices each day. Instead, you're guided on an day. Instead, you're guided on an day. Instead, you're guided on an enjoyable and progressive journey that enjoyable and progressive journey that enjoyable and progressive journey that deepens your practice step by step. deepens your practice step by step. deepens your practice step by step. Since I partnered with The Way, I have Since I partnered with The Way, I have Since I partnered with The Way, I have had so much positive feedback. One had so much positive feedback. One had so much positive feedback. One listener said, "Dr. Chatterjee, I came listener said, "Dr. Chatterjee, I came listener said, "Dr. Chatterjee, I came to The Way through your podcast. I have to The Way through your podcast. I have to The Way through your podcast. I have tried other meditation apps in the past tried other meditation apps in the past tried other meditation apps in the past with limited success and like the idea with limited success and like the idea with limited success and like the idea of following a single guided path. of following a single guided path. of following a single guided path. I'm nearly 2 months in now and loving I'm nearly 2 months in now and loving I'm nearly 2 months in now and loving it. Henry's gentle and concise approach it. Henry's gentle and concise approach it. Henry's gentle and concise approach is very calming and the way is now a is very calming and the way is now a is very calming and the way is now a part of my morning routine. You see, part of my morning routine. You see, part of my morning routine. You see, that's the sentiment that so many people that's the sentiment that so many people that's the sentiment that so many people report when they start meditating with report when they start meditating with report when they start meditating with the way. For listeners of my podcast, the way. For listeners of my podcast, the way. For listeners of my podcast, The Way is offering 30 free days to The Way is offering 30 free days to The Way is offering 30 free days to establish your own meditation practice. establish your own meditation practice. establish your own meditation practice. All you have to do is click on the QR All you have to do is click on the QR All you have to do is click on the QR code on screen or go to the code on screen or go to the code on screen or go to the wayoflife.com/livemore to get started. Yeah, rock climbing is to get started. Yeah, rock climbing is it's super interesting to me cuz again, it's super interesting to me cuz again, it's super interesting to me cuz again, it's it's one of these things that I it's it's one of these things that I it's it's one of these things that I think is expressive of my profoundly think is expressive of my profoundly think is expressive of my profoundly mixed relationship with scoring systems mixed relationship with scoring systems mixed relationship with scoring systems because rock climbing because rock climbing because rock climbing saved my soul during graduate school and saved my soul during graduate school and saved my soul during graduate school and it did so via an explicit scoring it did so via an explicit scoring it did so via an explicit scoring system. So, system. So, system. So, I was super depressed. I was super depressed. I was super depressed. Started climbing. Started climbing. Started climbing. And the interesting thing about climbing And the interesting thing about climbing And the interesting thing about climbing for me was I got the value of it wrong. for me was I got the value of it wrong. for me was I got the value of it wrong. Um and I think this is Um and I think this is Um and I think this is an important ingredient in this whole an important ingredient in this whole an important ingredient in this whole story. The value of climbing is actually story. The value of climbing is actually story. The value of climbing is actually really subtle. So, when I came into it, really subtle. So, when I came into it, really subtle. So, when I came into it, I came into it kind of in the frame of I came into it kind of in the frame of I came into it kind of in the frame of mind that we we were talking about the mind that we we were talking about the mind that we we were talking about the beginning. I was like, beginning. I was like, beginning. I was like, I need exercise. Exercise will help me I need exercise. Exercise will help me I need exercise. Exercise will help me lose weight and live longer. That's what lose weight and live longer. That's what lose weight and live longer. That's what exercise is for. I need to do some exercise is for. I need to do some exercise is for. I need to do some climbing. climbing. climbing. Um what climbing taught me over the Um what climbing taught me over the Um what climbing taught me over the years is that climbing is valuable for years is that climbing is valuable for years is that climbing is valuable for its own sake. That climbing is an its own sake. That climbing is an its own sake. That climbing is an ecstasy. That there is a beauty and a ecstasy. That there is a beauty and a ecstasy. That there is a beauty and a poetry to moving well and I don't I poetry to moving well and I don't I poetry to moving well and I don't I mean, I'm mediocre, but mean, I'm mediocre, but mean, I'm mediocre, but climbing taught me that there is climbing taught me that there is climbing taught me that there is something so extraordinary in being able something so extraordinary in being able something so extraordinary in being able to be so sensitive to your body that you to be so sensitive to your body that you to be so sensitive to your body that you can adjust your can adjust your can adjust your center of gravity over center of gravity over center of gravity over half an inch and just pull in a little half an inch and just pull in a little half an inch and just pull in a little bit more with the lower part of your bit more with the lower part of your bit more with the lower part of your core and suddenly feet that were core and suddenly feet that were core and suddenly feet that were impossible to use become perfect to use. impossible to use become perfect to use. impossible to use become perfect to use. It taught me that there was It taught me that there was It taught me that there was a wonder to like physical detail and a wonder to like physical detail and a wonder to like physical detail and precision for its own sake and the way precision for its own sake and the way precision for its own sake and the way it did it was with a scoring system it did it was with a scoring system it did it was with a scoring system because because because I mean I used to hike a lot but I I mean I used to hike a lot but I I mean I used to hike a lot but I checked out when I hiked. I was just checked out when I hiked. I was just checked out when I hiked. I was just like I'm just going to go up this thing like I'm just going to go up this thing like I'm just going to go up this thing and I would go up the thing and I would and I would go up the thing and I would and I would go up the thing and I would be thinking about other things or like be thinking about other things or like be thinking about other things or like thinking about philosophy or talking to thinking about philosophy or talking to thinking about philosophy or talking to my friend and I would tune out. Hiking was in some sense too easy to Hiking was in some sense too easy to force me to pay attention to that my force me to pay attention to that my force me to pay attention to that my body and I also clambered over rocks body and I also clambered over rocks body and I also clambered over rocks kind of like casually but again I just kind of like casually but again I just kind of like casually but again I just took the easy route and climbing said took the easy route and climbing said took the easy route and climbing said the scoring system of climbing is the scoring system of climbing is the scoring system of climbing is difficulty based and there are climbs difficulty based and there are climbs difficulty based and there are climbs that are rated for difficulty and then that are rated for difficulty and then that are rated for difficulty and then the scoring system tells you the scoring system tells you the scoring system tells you to increase your difficulty level. And to increase your difficulty level. And to increase your difficulty level. And that scoring system that scoring system that scoring system actually got me to pay attention to my actually got me to pay attention to my actually got me to pay attention to my body cuz the only way to get up to the body cuz the only way to get up to the body cuz the only way to get up to the next level next level next level was was was to pay more refined attention to my to pay more refined attention to my to pay more refined attention to my body. It also amplified uh body. It also amplified uh body. It also amplified uh my mental wandering. So uh there's this my mental wandering. So uh there's this my mental wandering. So uh there's this great moment from one of my favorite great moment from one of my favorite great moment from one of my favorite yoga writers Godfrey Devereux where he yoga writers Godfrey Devereux where he yoga writers Godfrey Devereux where he says um the point of yoga is meditation says um the point of yoga is meditation says um the point of yoga is meditation and it's a very good technique for and it's a very good technique for and it's a very good technique for meditating. He says cuz I tried seated meditating. He says cuz I tried seated meditating. He says cuz I tried seated meditation and it never worked cuz when meditation and it never worked cuz when meditation and it never worked cuz when my mind wandered I wouldn't notice cuz my mind wandered I wouldn't notice cuz my mind wandered I wouldn't notice cuz my mind had wandered but being in a hard my mind had wandered but being in a hard my mind had wandered but being in a hard yoga pose yoga pose yoga pose amplifies any mind wandering cuz if your amplifies any mind wandering cuz if your amplifies any mind wandering cuz if your mind wanders you wobble and that helps mind wanders you wobble and that helps mind wanders you wobble and that helps you notice. And climbing is even more you notice. And climbing is even more you notice. And climbing is even more extreme in this sense cuz in climbing if extreme in this sense cuz in climbing if extreme in this sense cuz in climbing if you're climbing a hard climb and your you're climbing a hard climb and your you're climbing a hard climb and your mind wanders you fall 10 ft onto the mind wanders you fall 10 ft onto the mind wanders you fall 10 ft onto the pad, right? You cannot miss that. It's a pad, right? You cannot miss that. It's a pad, right? You cannot miss that. It's a very loud signal. And so that procedure, very loud signal. And so that procedure, very loud signal. And so that procedure, that scoring system and those that scoring system and those that scoring system and those constraints and the difficulty it pushed constraints and the difficulty it pushed constraints and the difficulty it pushed me to, helped me find the beauty of me to, helped me find the beauty of me to, helped me find the beauty of movement. movement. movement. But also, But also, But also, after about 6 years of climbing, after about 6 years of climbing, after about 6 years of climbing, the difficulty system the difficulty system the difficulty system stopped working well for me. I I mean, I stopped working well for me. I I mean, I stopped working well for me. I I mean, I A I'm was never that athletic, and B A I'm was never that athletic, and B A I'm was never that athletic, and B became like an academic and a parent, became like an academic and a parent, became like an academic and a parent, and I didn't have enough time, and it and I didn't have enough time, and it and I didn't have enough time, and it was just impossible for me to progress was just impossible for me to progress was just impossible for me to progress up the difficulty scale. And so, for a up the difficulty scale. And so, for a up the difficulty scale. And so, for a while it became very frustrating, but I while it became very frustrating, but I while it became very frustrating, but I ended up doing was changing how I ended up doing was changing how I ended up doing was changing how I conceived the activity. I changed the conceived the activity. I changed the conceived the activity. I changed the scoring system, and I made it mostly one scoring system, and I made it mostly one scoring system, and I made it mostly one about climbing elegantly. about climbing elegantly. about climbing elegantly. Um and there are two things to notice. Um and there are two things to notice. Um and there are two things to notice. One, I think this is one of my I've had a lot I think this is one of my I've had a lot of bad experience unhealthy experiences of bad experience unhealthy experiences of bad experience unhealthy experiences with scoring systems, but this is the with scoring systems, but this is the with scoring systems, but this is the one of the ones I'm proudest of, cuz I one of the ones I'm proudest of, cuz I one of the ones I'm proudest of, cuz I think I got the best relationship I think I got the best relationship I think I got the best relationship I could get with a scoring system, which could get with a scoring system, which could get with a scoring system, which is is is I heard what was in it. I heard what was in it. I heard what was in it. I heard I heard I heard cuz what we've been saying is that cuz what we've been saying is that cuz what we've been saying is that scoring systems and metrics have values scoring systems and metrics have values scoring systems and metrics have values that are fixed into them. And sometimes, that are fixed into them. And sometimes, that are fixed into them. And sometimes, we've been talking about this as a bad we've been talking about this as a bad we've been talking about this as a bad thing, right? Like, "Oh, these are being thing, right? Like, "Oh, these are being thing, right? Like, "Oh, these are being imposed on me." But also, like you can imposed on me." But also, like you can imposed on me." But also, like you can learn from them. I think learn from them. I think learn from them. I think things like climbing, things like climbing, things like climbing, activities like activities like activities like skateboarding, right? Each of these has skateboarding, right? Each of these has skateboarding, right? Each of these has its own values that you might not tune its own values that you might not tune its own values that you might not tune into, and the scoring system is so clear into, and the scoring system is so clear into, and the scoring system is so clear that it helps you tune into them. So, that it helps you tune into them. So, that it helps you tune into them. So, you can use them to find your way into you can use them to find your way into you can use them to find your way into new beautiful things that you had not new beautiful things that you had not new beautiful things that you had not experienced before. But then after a experienced before. But then after a experienced before. But then after a while, while, while, when I'd gotten the kind of brute area, when I'd gotten the kind of brute area, when I'd gotten the kind of brute area, when I was like, "Oh, I get this now." I when I was like, "Oh, I get this now." I when I was like, "Oh, I get this now." I was able to fine-tune it to myself. I was able to fine-tune it to myself. I was able to fine-tune it to myself. I was able to tailor to myself. I was able was able to tailor to myself. I was able was able to tailor to myself. I was able to adjust what I was trying to do to to adjust what I was trying to do to to adjust what I was trying to do to make it better for me. And I think one make it better for me. And I think one make it better for me. And I think one way to put it is that I think the way to put it is that I think the way to put it is that I think the scoring systems and metrics are kind of scoring systems and metrics are kind of scoring systems and metrics are kind of off-the-rack values. off-the-rack values. off-the-rack values. But that's useful to have, right? But But that's useful to have, right? But But that's useful to have, right? But it's also useful to use as a starting it's also useful to use as a starting it's also useful to use as a starting point, point, point, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> and depart from. and I think >> and depart from. and I think >> and depart from. and I think being able to learn from them, use their being able to learn from them, use their being able to learn from them, use their rigidity to get onto something, and then rigidity to get onto something, and then rigidity to get onto something, and then being able to depart from them and being able to depart from them and being able to depart from them and adjust them adjust them adjust them is a really is a really is a really valuable way to do it. And I think valuable way to do it. And I think valuable way to do it. And I think what's interesting about my my climbing what's interesting about my my climbing what's interesting about my my climbing example was or the original the original example was or the original the original example was or the original the original scoring system was very external. scoring system was very external. scoring system was very external. This external difficulty score, but I This external difficulty score, but I This external difficulty score, but I needed that to be able to get onto it needed that to be able to get onto it needed that to be able to get onto it cuz I didn't have the value inside me. cuz I didn't have the value inside me. cuz I didn't have the value inside me. And once I did, I could kind of go off And once I did, I could kind of go off And once I did, I could kind of go off book book book and start aiming at something much and start aiming at something much and start aiming at something much subtler and more internal. I could guide subtler and more internal. I could guide subtler and more internal. I could guide myself with my own sense of elegance, myself with my own sense of elegance, myself with my own sense of elegance, but it took years of following the but it took years of following the but it took years of following the scoring system to get to be able to do scoring system to get to be able to do scoring system to get to be able to do that. that. that. >> Yeah, I I love that see. I I really love >> Yeah, I I love that see. I I really love >> Yeah, I I love that see. I I really love that. And in my last book, which is that. And in my last book, which is that. And in my last book, which is called Make Change at Last, the first called Make Change at Last, the first called Make Change at Last, the first chapter is called Trust Yourself. chapter is called Trust Yourself. chapter is called Trust Yourself. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And in that chapter >> And in that chapter >> And in that chapter I make the case that we've outsourced I make the case that we've outsourced I make the case that we've outsourced our inner expertise to external experts. our inner expertise to external experts. our inner expertise to external experts. Right? Right? Right? >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And I see this in health so much, right? >> And I see this in health so much, right? >> And I see this in health so much, right? Because Because Because I think one of the big reasons why I think one of the big reasons why I think one of the big reasons why people are so confused these days by all people are so confused these days by all people are so confused these days by all the conflicting information that exists the conflicting information that exists the conflicting information that exists online about health online about health online about health is is is A because there's a belief that there's A because there's a belief that there's A because there's a belief that there's one right way for everyone. So when two one right way for everyone. So when two one right way for everyone. So when two different experts are saying two different experts are saying two different experts are saying two different things, people are like, well, different things, people are like, well, different things, people are like, well, which expert should I believe? It's which expert should I believe? It's which expert should I believe? It's like, well, hold on a minute. Both like, well, hold on a minute. Both like, well, hold on a minute. Both experts might be right, but for experts might be right, but for experts might be right, but for different people. different people. different people. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right? So which one of those people are >> Right? So which one of those people are >> Right? So which one of those people are you? you? you? And so And so And so I think I think I think that's one aspect of it. I think the that's one aspect of it. I think the that's one aspect of it. I think the other aspect is that other aspect is that other aspect is that we've forgotten we've forgotten we've forgotten how to ask ourself how to ask ourself how to ask ourself about you know, how am I experiencing about you know, how am I experiencing about you know, how am I experiencing this? Is this still working for me? this? Is this still working for me? this? Is this still working for me? Right? So that scoring system in rock Right? So that scoring system in rock Right? So that scoring system in rock climbing climbing climbing from what I heard, it sounds as though from what I heard, it sounds as though from what I heard, it sounds as though it got you climbing, it got you pushing it got you climbing, it got you pushing it got you climbing, it got you pushing yourself so you start to progress, and yourself so you start to progress, and yourself so you start to progress, and really experience climbing in a slightly really experience climbing in a slightly really experience climbing in a slightly different way. But then after a while different way. But then after a while different way. But then after a while you realize, actually now the scoring you realize, actually now the scoring you realize, actually now the scoring system starts to become problematic. system starts to become problematic. system starts to become problematic. Right, so it helped me for a while, but Right, so it helped me for a while, but Right, so it helped me for a while, but now I'm better off experiencing climbing now I'm better off experiencing climbing now I'm better off experiencing climbing in the way that I want to experience it. in the way that I want to experience it. in the way that I want to experience it. And, you know, I I think about even the And, you know, I I think about even the And, you know, I I think about even the term non-negotiables. Like, a very term non-negotiables. Like, a very term non-negotiables. Like, a very common thing that people like me will common thing that people like me will common thing that people like me will get asked when we go on other people's get asked when we go on other people's get asked when we go on other people's podcasts is, you know, what are your podcasts is, you know, what are your podcasts is, you know, what are your health non-negotiables, Dr. Chatterjee? health non-negotiables, Dr. Chatterjee? health non-negotiables, Dr. Chatterjee? Right? Right? Right? And I will say I don't have any. And I will say I don't have any. And I will say I don't have any. Because Because Because a non-negotiable can work really well if a non-negotiable can work really well if a non-negotiable can work really well if you are stuck in your life, if you're you are stuck in your life, if you're you are stuck in your life, if you're not doing anything proactive for your not doing anything proactive for your not doing anything proactive for your well-being, well-being, well-being, and and and you're sitting around all day, you're you're sitting around all day, you're you're sitting around all day, you're not making progress, you have no forward not making progress, you have no forward not making progress, you have no forward momentum. Yeah, I think a momentum. Yeah, I think a momentum. Yeah, I think a non-negotiable, you know, a few things non-negotiable, you know, a few things non-negotiable, you know, a few things that you commit to doing every single that you commit to doing every single that you commit to doing every single day without fail, day without fail, day without fail, help to start moving you out of that help to start moving you out of that help to start moving you out of that space. space. space. But after a while they can become a But after a while they can become a But after a while they can become a trap. They can, you know, run the risk trap. They can, you know, run the risk trap. They can, you know, run the risk of perfectionism and beating yourself up of perfectionism and beating yourself up of perfectionism and beating yourself up where you don't feel like you're worthy where you don't feel like you're worthy where you don't feel like you're worthy as a human cuz you didn't do the as a human cuz you didn't do the as a human cuz you didn't do the meditation that you said you were going meditation that you said you were going meditation that you said you were going to do. Right? So, to do. Right? So, to do. Right? So, things work things work things work until they no longer work. until they no longer work. until they no longer work. >> So, I think it's there's so many things >> So, I think it's there's so many things >> So, I think it's there's so many things I want to talk about. So, the first I want to talk about. So, the first I want to talk about. So, the first thing is is this such a clear glimpse is this such a clear glimpse of what of what of what metrics are for and what they're not. metrics are for and what they're not. metrics are for and what they're not. So, So, So, I'm going to push back a little against I'm going to push back a little against I'm going to push back a little against your thought about your thought about your thought about well, there are these different experts well, there are these different experts well, there are these different experts that are good and you just have to that are good and you just have to that are good and you just have to choose the one that's good for you. Cuz choose the one that's good for you. Cuz choose the one that's good for you. Cuz the other thing we have to put in this the other thing we have to put in this the other thing we have to put in this space that there are also fake experts. space that there are also fake experts. space that there are also fake experts. So, a lot of the background for this So, a lot of the background for this So, a lot of the background for this book is actually one of the things I was book is actually one of the things I was book is actually one of the things I was most worried about was how non-experts most worried about was how non-experts most worried about was how non-experts pick the right expert when they don't pick the right expert when they don't pick the right expert when they don't know anything in the field, and a lot of know anything in the field, and a lot of know anything in the field, and a lot of the best uses of metrics are exactly the best uses of metrics are exactly the best uses of metrics are exactly they do what they say on the tin. They they do what they say on the tin. They they do what they say on the tin. They help you figure out who is completely a help you figure out who is completely a help you figure out who is completely a quack. quack. quack. And they are best at sorting on that And they are best at sorting on that And they are best at sorting on that kind of broad large scale, right? kind of broad large scale, right? kind of broad large scale, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I actually I actually I actually I agree. If If you're If you're swimming I agree. If If you're If you're swimming I agree. If If you're If you're swimming in a sea of hundreds of thousands of in a sea of hundreds of thousands of in a sea of hundreds of thousands of experts now who are sharing information, experts now who are sharing information, experts now who are sharing information, of course of course of course some are going to have valuable some are going to have valuable some are going to have valuable information and some are not. But information and some are not. But information and some are not. But even within even within even within I I really think this does speak to the I I really think this does speak to the I I really think this does speak to the book, right? And the ideas within it. book, right? And the ideas within it. book, right? And the ideas within it. Even within well-credentialed experts Even within well-credentialed experts Even within well-credentialed experts who've been to the right university and who've been to the right university and who've been to the right university and done the right course, done the right course, done the right course, they don't always agree. they don't always agree. they don't always agree. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Right? So >> Right? So >> Right? So just saying choose a well-credentialed just saying choose a well-credentialed just saying choose a well-credentialed expert has an inbuilt problem within it, expert has an inbuilt problem within it, expert has an inbuilt problem within it, which is you're assuming that every which is you're assuming that every which is you're assuming that every expert interprets the data in the same expert interprets the data in the same expert interprets the data in the same way and has the same view, but the world way and has the same view, but the world way and has the same view, but the world doesn't work like that. And I I often doesn't work like that. And I I often doesn't work like that. And I I often say to people, "If you're waiting for a say to people, "If you're waiting for a say to people, "If you're waiting for a time when every single expert agrees, time when every single expert agrees, time when every single expert agrees, >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> you're going to be waiting a long time." >> you're going to be waiting a long time." >> you're going to be waiting a long time." So my my approach to people is to say, So my my approach to people is to say, So my my approach to people is to say, "You need a balance, right? I'm not "You need a balance, right? I'm not "You need a balance, right? I'm not saying ignore saying ignore saying ignore >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> external experts like me, >> external experts like me, >> external experts like me, but also learn to ask yourself, but also learn to ask yourself, but also learn to ask yourself, "Does this approach "Does this approach "Does this approach vibe with me? Does it fit my lifestyle, vibe with me? Does it fit my lifestyle, vibe with me? Does it fit my lifestyle, my culture, how I want to live?" my culture, how I want to live?" my culture, how I want to live?" >> Yeah, and I think the most important >> Yeah, and I think the most important >> Yeah, and I think the most important word you used was trust. word you used was trust. word you used was trust. Um Um Um and especially self-trust. and especially self-trust. and especially self-trust. >> Yeah. And isn't the risk with a lot of >> Yeah. And isn't the risk with a lot of >> Yeah. And isn't the risk with a lot of the metrics that are given to us from the metrics that are given to us from the metrics that are given to us from the outside that they the outside that they the outside that they if we're not intentional about them, if we're not intentional about them, if we're not intentional about them, they start to erode our self-trust they start to erode our self-trust they start to erode our self-trust because we no longer trust ourselves, we because we no longer trust ourselves, we because we no longer trust ourselves, we trust the metric. trust the metric. trust the metric. >> Exactly. So I think there was a moment >> Exactly. So I think there was a moment >> Exactly. So I think there was a moment where I saw this very clearly. I was in where I saw this very clearly. I was in where I saw this very clearly. I was in a wine shop and a wine shop and a wine shop and a gentleman came in, very well dressed, a gentleman came in, very well dressed, a gentleman came in, very well dressed, and he was he he um and he was he he um and he was he he um he was like, "I I'd like to get to mind. he was like, "I I'd like to get to mind. he was like, "I I'd like to get to mind. I I would prefer wine above 95 points." I I would prefer wine above 95 points." I I would prefer wine above 95 points." And the And the And the The wine shop owner was doing what they The wine shop owner was doing what they The wine shop owner was doing what they often do, which is trying to talk you often do, which is trying to talk you often do, which is trying to talk you out of that. They'd be like, "No, it's out of that. They'd be like, "No, it's out of that. They'd be like, "No, it's really like what What are you going to really like what What are you going to really like what What are you going to have it with? What do you like? Like, have it with? What do you like? Like, have it with? What do you like? Like, what do you want that day?" And the guy what do you want that day?" And the guy what do you want that day?" And the guy said, said, said, "Well, how am I supposed to know what I "Well, how am I supposed to know what I "Well, how am I supposed to know what I like?" like?" like?" And I thought, "What are you doing? What And I thought, "What are you doing? What And I thought, "What are you doing? What >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> What is the activity even here if you're >> What is the activity even here if you're >> What is the activity even here if you're consuming a wine consuming a wine consuming a wine unable to tell if you like it, being unable to tell if you like it, being unable to tell if you like it, being guided only by I mean, it makes total guided only by I mean, it makes total guided only by I mean, it makes total sense to use an external score as maybe sense to use an external score as maybe sense to use an external score as maybe a starting point for what to buy, to a starting point for what to buy, to a starting point for what to buy, to find something that you might like. find something that you might like. find something that you might like. >> It's a balance. >> It's a balance. >> It's a balance. >> But I think what had happened to >> But I think what had happened to >> But I think what had happened to to him is something that's happened to a to him is something that's happened to a to him is something that's happened to a lot of people in a galactic scale, lot of people in a galactic scale, lot of people in a galactic scale, exactly what you're talking about. exactly what you're talking about. exactly what you're talking about. He'd been so attentive to external He'd been so attentive to external He'd been so attentive to external signals that he had lost any ability to signals that he had lost any ability to signals that he had lost any ability to hear the I mean, I don't think it's even that the I mean, I don't think it's even that quiet a voice. The voice of pleasure had quiet a voice. The voice of pleasure had quiet a voice. The voice of pleasure had gotten swamped in his brain. And I think gotten swamped in his brain. And I think gotten swamped in his brain. And I think this is exactly what happens. I think this is exactly what happens. I think this is exactly what happens. I think So, the philosopher Elijah Milgram, uh, So, the philosopher Elijah Milgram, uh, So, the philosopher Elijah Milgram, uh, who is a major inspiration to me, one of who is a major inspiration to me, one of who is a major inspiration to me, one of his ideas is that there's no single his ideas is that there's no single his ideas is that there's no single correct value to have or goal to have correct value to have or goal to have correct value to have or goal to have for your life. Instead, you're trying to for your life. Instead, you're trying to for your life. Instead, you're trying to find an expression of a value or a goal find an expression of a value or a goal find an expression of a value or a goal that fits your personality and your that fits your personality and your that fits your personality and your context in the place you're in. And the context in the place you're in. And the context in the place you're in. And the way you do that is you try on values, way you do that is you try on values, way you do that is you try on values, and you see if they work for you. And and you see if they work for you. And and you see if they work for you. And the signal that they're working for you the signal that they're working for you the signal that they're working for you is that you're happy, you're engaged, is that you're happy, you're engaged, is that you're happy, you're engaged, you're flourishing. And the signal that you're flourishing. And the signal that you're flourishing. And the signal that they're not working for you is that they're not working for you is that they're not working for you is that you're miserable, you're bored, uh, you're miserable, you're bored, uh, you're miserable, you're bored, uh, and I think what's happened to many of and I think what's happened to many of and I think what's happened to many of us is instead of modifying how we think us is instead of modifying how we think us is instead of modifying how we think of the target in the light of this quiet of the target in the light of this quiet of the target in the light of this quiet inner voice, inner voice, inner voice, we're ignoring we're ignoring we're ignoring the inner voice in favor of the loud a the inner voice in favor of the loud a the inner voice in favor of the loud a loud metric. And loud metric. And loud metric. And by the way, we have a story about why by the way, we have a story about why by the way, we have a story about why that's so easy to to do. It's because that's so easy to to do. It's because that's so easy to to do. It's because metrics are built to be easily metrics are built to be easily metrics are built to be easily comprehensible. That's part of our comprehensible. That's part of our comprehensible. That's part of our story. They've been built to for story. They've been built to for story. They've been built to for everyone to understand instantly and for everyone to understand instantly and for everyone to understand instantly and for everyone to be able to communicate to everyone to be able to communicate to everyone to be able to communicate to other people instantly. And I think one other people instantly. And I think one other people instantly. And I think one thing that's happened is that we have thing that's happened is that we have thing that's happened is that we have systematically become unwilling to systematically become unwilling to systematically become unwilling to listen or trust listen or trust listen or trust quiet inner signals, which makes us quiet inner signals, which makes us quiet inner signals, which makes us dependent on external sources to dependent on external sources to dependent on external sources to evaluate our life for us. evaluate our life for us. evaluate our life for us. >> And I think one of the reasons for that, >> And I think one of the reasons for that, >> And I think one of the reasons for that, in my experience, in my experience, in my experience, is is is because we don't spend that much time because we don't spend that much time because we don't spend that much time with ourselves anymore. with ourselves anymore. with ourselves anymore. We're constantly distracted. You know, We're constantly distracted. You know, We're constantly distracted. You know, we're consuming stuff. And if you're we're consuming stuff. And if you're we're consuming stuff. And if you're constantly consuming stuff from the constantly consuming stuff from the constantly consuming stuff from the outside, no matter how good it is, outside, no matter how good it is, outside, no matter how good it is, you're probably less able to hear what's you're probably less able to hear what's you're probably less able to hear what's going on on the inside. So, I believe going on on the inside. So, I believe going on on the inside. So, I believe for a lot of people, and this has for a lot of people, and this has for a lot of people, and this has certainly been my experience, certainly been my experience, certainly been my experience, is that stuff where you, you know, doing things stuff where you, you know, doing things regularly regularly regularly in solitude, you know, whether it's a in solitude, you know, whether it's a in solitude, you know, whether it's a walk where you're not listening to walk where you're not listening to walk where you're not listening to something or you're drinking a cup of something or you're drinking a cup of something or you're drinking a cup of coffee in complete silence, you know, coffee in complete silence, you know, coffee in complete silence, you know, it allows you to start tuning into, "Oh, it allows you to start tuning into, "Oh, it allows you to start tuning into, "Oh, wait a minute. I'm, you know, wait a minute. I'm, you know, wait a minute. I'm, you know, something's going on here. Something something's going on here. Something something's going on here. Something that that that something my body's trying to tell me something my body's trying to tell me something my body's trying to tell me something. Trying to make me aware, but something. Trying to make me aware, but something. Trying to make me aware, but instead of listening, we distract. So, I instead of listening, we distract. So, I instead of listening, we distract. So, I think for some people at least, think for some people at least, think for some people at least, that has become an issue. I love what that has become an issue. I love what that has become an issue. I love what you said about values you said about values you said about values because and values are a kind of metric, right? and values are a kind of metric, right? But they're an internally generated But they're an internally generated But they're an internally generated metric as opposed to an externally metric as opposed to an externally metric as opposed to an externally generated one, which is why I think generated one, which is why I think generated one, which is why I think values are so powerful. I mean, you values are so powerful. I mean, you values are so powerful. I mean, you know, we haven't we spoken about games know, we haven't we spoken about games know, we haven't we spoken about games yet. You know, the the you start with yet. You know, the the you start with yet. You know, the the you start with what's so good about games and what's so what's so good about games and what's so what's so good about games and what's so beautiful about games is that you have beautiful about games is that you have beautiful about games is that you have these these these rules and the rules of the game shape rules and the rules of the game shape rules and the rules of the game shape the behavior and shape what you care the behavior and shape what you care the behavior and shape what you care about. about. about. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> But actually >> But actually >> But actually life's a game as well and the rules of life's a game as well and the rules of life's a game as well and the rules of the game that are given to us shape what the game that are given to us shape what the game that are given to us shape what we think we should care about. So if we we think we should care about. So if we we think we should care about. So if we think we should care about money and think we should care about money and think we should care about money and promotions and status promotions and status promotions and status we end up chasing that to find at 45, we end up chasing that to find at 45, we end up chasing that to find at 45, well, like what the hell's happened to well, like what the hell's happened to well, like what the hell's happened to my life? Why do I feel unfulfilled? my life? Why do I feel unfulfilled? my life? Why do I feel unfulfilled? Because we've chased something that has Because we've chased something that has Because we've chased something that has been or we might have chased something been or we might have chased something been or we might have chased something that was given to us from the outside. that was given to us from the outside. that was given to us from the outside. >> But I think values are in many ways the polar opposite but in a great way the polar opposite but in a great way that we get to choose our values. We get that we get to choose our values. We get that we get to choose our values. We get to try out these values and see, you to try out these values and see, you to try out these values and see, you know, how do I feel? As you said, when I know, how do I feel? As you said, when I know, how do I feel? As you said, when I when when I'm actually in accordance when when I'm actually in accordance when when I'm actually in accordance with these values, how do I feel when I with these values, how do I feel when I with these values, how do I feel when I don't? And over time perhaps we can don't? And over time perhaps we can don't? And over time perhaps we can tweak those values tweak those values tweak those values to kind of know who we are and live in to kind of know who we are and live in to kind of know who we are and live in harmony with that person. I mean, harmony with that person. I mean, harmony with that person. I mean, yesterday Lindsey Vonn, the American yesterday Lindsey Vonn, the American yesterday Lindsey Vonn, the American downhill skier downhill skier downhill skier Olympic champion. Olympic champion. Olympic champion. And And And she decided after I think 5 years out of she decided after I think 5 years out of she decided after I think 5 years out of the sport to compete in the women's the sport to compete in the women's the sport to compete in the women's downhill. People going, this is crazy, downhill. People going, this is crazy, downhill. People going, this is crazy, you know, she's been out of sport for 5 you know, she's been out of sport for 5 you know, she's been out of sport for 5 years and then last year years and then last year years and then last year uh sorry, last week she ruptured her ACL uh sorry, last week she ruptured her ACL uh sorry, last week she ruptured her ACL anterior anterior cruciate ligament on anterior anterior cruciate ligament on anterior anterior cruciate ligament on her left knee. her left knee. her left knee. Yet was still deciding to compete and Yet was still deciding to compete and Yet was still deciding to compete and since she crashed since she crashed since she crashed my feed on X is just full of people my feed on X is just full of people my feed on X is just full of people either saying she's the stupidest woman either saying she's the stupidest woman either saying she's the stupidest woman in the world for competing or people in the world for competing or people in the world for competing or people saying what a brave athlete. And all I saying what a brave athlete. And all I saying what a brave athlete. And all I can think of is can think of is can think of is how do any of us really know? Like we how do any of us really know? Like we how do any of us really know? Like we don't know who she is, how she values don't know who she is, how she values don't know who she is, how she values her life. And she's put out a statement her life. And she's put out a statement her life. And she's put out a statement this morning saying that she has no this morning saying that she has no this morning saying that she has no regrets. She knows who she is, she knew regrets. She knows who she is, she knew regrets. She knows who she is, she knew the risks. the risks. the risks. But actually this is how she wants to But actually this is how she wants to But actually this is how she wants to live. live. live. >> Right. And I thought there was something >> Right. And I thought there was something >> Right. And I thought there was something really powerful about that which we can really powerful about that which we can really powerful about that which we can all, I think, all, I think, all, I think, think about, which is think about, which is think about, which is do we know our own values, or have those do we know our own values, or have those do we know our own values, or have those values been given to us from the values been given to us from the values been given to us from the outside? And if they've been given to outside? And if they've been given to outside? And if they've been given to you from the outside, like they were for you from the outside, like they were for you from the outside, like they were for me, me, me, for much of my life, for much of my life, for much of my life, can you start the process of trying to can you start the process of trying to can you start the process of trying to understand understand understand which ones you'd like to change? which ones you'd like to change? which ones you'd like to change? I mean, what's your take on that? I mean, what's your take on that? I mean, what's your take on that? >> I mean, >> I mean, >> I mean, metrics are prepackaged values. metrics are prepackaged values. metrics are prepackaged values. And And And one of the things that I find one of the things that I find one of the things that I find powerful powerful powerful about games about games about games is that they balance is that they balance is that they balance the explicitness of the explicitness of the explicitness of giving you a goal or a value giving you a goal or a value giving you a goal or a value with a freedom to modify it. I think with a freedom to modify it. I think with a freedom to modify it. I think they really they really they really uh uh uh exemplify exemplify exemplify at their best at their best at their best the mode of life you're trying to the mode of life you're trying to the mode of life you're trying to describe because this is okay. this is okay. This is the most philosophical on high This is the most philosophical on high This is the most philosophical on high geek description of the most common geek description of the most common geek description of the most common activity. Here's what you do when you activity. Here's what you do when you activity. Here's what you do when you play a game. play a game. play a game. A game gives you a prepackaged target. A game gives you a prepackaged target. A game gives you a prepackaged target. It gives you a scoring system. You do it It gives you a scoring system. You do it It gives you a scoring system. You do it for a while, for a while, for a while, and then you step back and you reflect and then you step back and you reflect and then you step back and you reflect and you ask yourself, and you ask yourself, and you ask yourself, was it fun? was it fun? was it fun? Was it a good time? Was it enriching? Was it a good time? Was it enriching? Was it a good time? Was it enriching? Was it interesting? Was it interesting? Was it interesting? Was it an enjoyable social experience? Was it an enjoyable social experience? Was it an enjoyable social experience? And what you've actually done there is And what you've actually done there is And what you've actually done there is done a micro version of exactly, I done a micro version of exactly, I done a micro version of exactly, I think, the thing that you think is think, the thing that you think is think, the thing that you think is beautiful, which is first you plunge beautiful, which is first you plunge beautiful, which is first you plunge yourself into this alternate score thing yourself into this alternate score thing yourself into this alternate score thing that specifies exactly what you do. You that specifies exactly what you do. You that specifies exactly what you do. You try it on, try it on, try it on, and then you step back and ask yourself and then you step back and ask yourself and then you step back and ask yourself from example, from an ask yourself from from example, from an ask yourself from from example, from an ask yourself from an angle outside that scoring system an angle outside that scoring system an angle outside that scoring system in a way that I think is cute to in a way that I think is cute to in a way that I think is cute to listening to internal listening to internal listening to internal signals. Like just the basic question, signals. Like just the basic question, signals. Like just the basic question, was that fun? Was that interesting? Is a was that fun? Was that interesting? Is a was that fun? Was that interesting? Is a cue to be open to weird hard to measure cue to be open to weird hard to measure cue to be open to weird hard to measure signals. And then you use that to make a signals. And then you use that to make a signals. And then you use that to make a decision about whether you want to play decision about whether you want to play decision about whether you want to play the game again, whether you want to play the game again, whether you want to play the game again, whether you want to play a different game, whether you want to a different game, whether you want to a different game, whether you want to modify that game. And I think that modify that game. And I think that modify that game. And I think that >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> as >> as >> as dumb as it might sound, I think that a dumb as it might sound, I think that a dumb as it might sound, I think that a life with games exemplifies life with games exemplifies life with games exemplifies a freedom and agency with respect to a freedom and agency with respect to a freedom and agency with respect to your values and activities. What it is your values and activities. What it is your values and activities. What it is and not every game is like this. You can and not every game is like this. You can and not every game is like this. You can be pushed into bad games. It's not be pushed into bad games. It's not be pushed into bad games. It's not automatic. automatic. automatic. >> Is it a bad game or is it a game that's >> Is it a bad game or is it a game that's >> Is it a bad game or is it a game that's just not suited to you? just not suited to you? just not suited to you? >> Um I mean this is I I think >> Um I mean this is I I think >> Um I mean this is I I think I'm mostly I'm talking about games that I'm mostly I'm talking about games that I'm mostly I'm talking about games that are not suited to you. There are are not suited to you. There are are not suited to you. There are probably some bad games. I think like probably some bad games. I think like probably some bad games. I think like purpose-built addictive games are bad, purpose-built addictive games are bad, purpose-built addictive games are bad, but whatever. I I I think you're right. but whatever. I I I think you're right. but whatever. I I I think you're right. The The The the thing that the thing that the thing that the social technology of games do when the social technology of games do when the social technology of games do when we experience them in the right context we experience them in the right context we experience them in the right context is they trigger reflection. is they trigger reflection. is they trigger reflection. And they trigger reflection by And they trigger reflection by And they trigger reflection by participating in and then stepping back participating in and then stepping back participating in and then stepping back from extremely explicit systems. They from extremely explicit systems. They from extremely explicit systems. They also let us leverage what's good about also let us leverage what's good about also let us leverage what's good about explicit systems, right? The whole point explicit systems, right? The whole point explicit systems, right? The whole point of game rules and game goals is they of game rules and game goals is they of game rules and game goals is they capture kinds of activities. That's what capture kinds of activities. That's what capture kinds of activities. That's what rock climbing is like for me. A lot of rock climbing is like for me. A lot of rock climbing is like for me. A lot of my favorite board games and a lot of my my favorite board games and a lot of my my favorite board games and a lot of my favorite I'm really interested in favorite I'm really interested in favorite I'm really interested in tabletop role-playing games right now tabletop role-playing games right now tabletop role-playing games right now have a very interestingly strict rule have a very interestingly strict rule have a very interestingly strict rule set and a point system that gets you to set and a point system that gets you to set and a point system that gets you to leap into a particular kind of activity. leap into a particular kind of activity. leap into a particular kind of activity. So a lot of the So a lot of the So a lot of the my favorite role-playing games have my favorite role-playing games have my favorite role-playing games have scoring systems that scoring systems that scoring systems that tell you to do things like invent shared tell you to do things like invent shared tell you to do things like invent shared backstory or find tension in character backstory or find tension in character backstory or find tension in character drama. And having that as a quick, clear drama. And having that as a quick, clear drama. And having that as a quick, clear guide can help you find your way into guide can help you find your way into guide can help you find your way into new forms of Because the whole new forms of Because the whole new forms of Because the whole [clears throat] thing that that we're [clears throat] thing that that we're [clears throat] thing that that we're generating here, the background thought generating here, the background thought generating here, the background thought is that values are subtle. And I think is that values are subtle. And I think is that values are subtle. And I think I just realized there's a slightly I just realized there's a slightly I just realized there's a slightly different alignment in the way you're different alignment in the way you're different alignment in the way you're talking about things and the way I'm talking about things and the way I'm talking about things and the way I'm talking about things. talking about things. talking about things. Uh Uh Uh I think you are, to use my own like, a I think you are, to use my own like, a I think you are, to use my own like, a little more purely existential in the little more purely existential in the little more purely existential in the old school, like Sartre-style old school, like Sartre-style old school, like Sartre-style existentialism. existentialism. existentialism. The views you've been expressing are The views you've been expressing are The views you've been expressing are like, your real values come from the like, your real values come from the like, your real values come from the inside, they're authentic to you, and inside, they're authentic to you, and inside, they're authentic to you, and the stuff from the outside is fake. And the stuff from the outside is fake. And the stuff from the outside is fake. And I don't think that. I actually think a I don't think that. I actually think a I don't think that. I actually think a lot of the most important values in life lot of the most important values in life lot of the most important values in life are very subtle and contained in the are very subtle and contained in the are very subtle and contained in the outside. I learned the beauty of jazz outside. I learned the beauty of jazz outside. I learned the beauty of jazz from other people. I learned the beauty from other people. I learned the beauty from other people. I learned the beauty of rap from other people. I learned the of rap from other people. I learned the of rap from other people. I learned the beauty of rock climbing from other beauty of rock climbing from other beauty of rock climbing from other people. Those values are embedded in people. Those values are embedded in people. Those values are embedded in external activities. Think for me, the external activities. Think for me, the external activities. Think for me, the most important thing is that what is most important thing is that what is most important thing is that what is really valuable is often quite subtle, really valuable is often quite subtle, really valuable is often quite subtle, and that subtlety is driving both sides and that subtlety is driving both sides and that subtlety is driving both sides of this. The reason we want games and we of this. The reason we want games and we of this. The reason we want games and we want rules is cuz values are subtle and want rules is cuz values are subtle and want rules is cuz values are subtle and it takes a long time to be led into it takes a long time to be led into it takes a long time to be led into them. That's why it took me years them. That's why it took me years them. That's why it took me years exposed to the scoring system of rock exposed to the scoring system of rock exposed to the scoring system of rock climbing to see the beauty of movement. climbing to see the beauty of movement. climbing to see the beauty of movement. I needed that structure to get me over I needed that structure to get me over I needed that structure to get me over to see that subtlety. And it's also why to see that subtlety. And it's also why to see that subtlety. And it's also why metrics won't metrics won't metrics won't perfectly capture it explicitly, right? perfectly capture it explicitly, right? perfectly capture it explicitly, right? That that subtlety is also exactly why That that subtlety is also exactly why That that subtlety is also exactly why um you'll never be able to get a metric um you'll never be able to get a metric um you'll never be able to get a metric that exactly captures a value. Which is that exactly captures a value. Which is that exactly captures a value. Which is And I think the way that games do it is And I think the way that games do it is And I think the way that games do it is they don't try to get you there they don't try to get you there they don't try to get you there perfectly. They give you a shove in the perfectly. They give you a shove in the perfectly. They give you a shove in the right direction. And that's That's what right direction. And that's That's what right direction. And that's That's what they're at the best for, right? They're they're at the best for, right? They're they're at the best for, right? They're a shove in the general direction, and a shove in the general direction, and a shove in the general direction, and then you eventually like get up and then you eventually like get up and then you eventually like get up and teeter on your own feet and find your teeter on your own feet and find your teeter on your own feet and find your way. That's But we we need that help. We way. That's But we we need that help. We way. That's But we we need that help. We need both a combination of the need both a combination of the need both a combination of the assistance of external systems assistance of external systems assistance of external systems to help us find our way, and then the to help us find our way, and then the to help us find our way, and then the willingness to trust ourselves to willingness to trust ourselves to willingness to trust ourselves to navigate and hear the inner voice to navigate and hear the inner voice to navigate and hear the inner voice to catch on to what's subtle. catch on to what's subtle. catch on to what's subtle. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But if we're stuck on the metric the >> But if we're stuck on the metric the >> But if we're stuck on the metric the entire time, entire time, entire time, we'll never we'll never start to hear we'll never we'll never start to hear we'll never we'll never start to hear the smaller signals that'll help us the smaller signals that'll help us the smaller signals that'll help us close in. close in. close in. >> Yeah, I'm not sure I necessarily think >> Yeah, I'm not sure I necessarily think >> Yeah, I'm not sure I necessarily think it's all internal and the external has it's all internal and the external has it's all internal and the external has no value. I think for me it's more no value. I think for me it's more no value. I think for me it's more it's a combination of the two. We can as it's a combination of the two. We can as it's a combination of the two. We can as you say, let's say with jazz. Like I'm a you say, let's say with jazz. Like I'm a you say, let's say with jazz. Like I'm a huge music fan and you know, music has huge music fan and you know, music has huge music fan and you know, music has done something to me on the inside done something to me on the inside done something to me on the inside um for many, many years, right? So that um for many, many years, right? So that um for many, many years, right? So that yeah, sure. We can try and quantify with yeah, sure. We can try and quantify with yeah, sure. We can try and quantify with scientific data and say that this is scientific data and say that this is scientific data and say that this is what happens in the brain or we can just what happens in the brain or we can just what happens in the brain or we can just go, you know what? When I hear that go, you know what? When I hear that go, you know what? When I hear that track, I feel absolutely fantastic, track, I feel absolutely fantastic, track, I feel absolutely fantastic, right? Which should be right? Which should be right? Which should be good enough in and of itself, right? good enough in and of itself, right? good enough in and of itself, right? But you need the external music to bring But you need the external music to bring But you need the external music to bring out that internal feeling. out that internal feeling. out that internal feeling. So I don't think it any of these things So I don't think it any of these things So I don't think it any of these things are black or white and that you can say are black or white and that you can say are black or white and that you can say it's just internal or just external. it's just internal or just external. it's just internal or just external. I do very much believe that I do very much believe that I do very much believe that you know, I'm interested in you know, I'm interested in you know, I'm interested in primarily health and happiness. primarily health and happiness. primarily health and happiness. And And And I do believe it's very hard for people I do believe it's very hard for people I do believe it's very hard for people to truly be healthy and happy in the to truly be healthy and happy in the to truly be healthy and happy in the long term long term long term if they haven't if they haven't if they haven't almost taken an internal inventory and almost taken an internal inventory and almost taken an internal inventory and figured out who they actually are. Now, figured out who they actually are. Now, figured out who they actually are. Now, they might need to experiment, they they might need to experiment, they they might need to experiment, they might need to make some mistakes or I might need to make some mistakes or I might need to make some mistakes or I wouldn't even call them mistakes. You wouldn't even call them mistakes. You wouldn't even call them mistakes. You might need to experiment maybe with the might need to experiment maybe with the might need to experiment maybe with the wrong thing to learn actually, you know wrong thing to learn actually, you know wrong thing to learn actually, you know what? When I behave like that, what? When I behave like that, what? When I behave like that, that's not really who you know, who I that's not really who you know, who I that's not really who you know, who I want to be, right? You've got this thing want to be, right? You've got this thing want to be, right? You've got this thing in the book called the gap, the distance in the book called the gap, the distance in the book called the gap, the distance between what's measured and what between what's measured and what between what's measured and what actually matters, right? And I talk actually matters, right? And I talk actually matters, right? And I talk about that as well through a different about that as well through a different about that as well through a different lens, which is whenever there's a gap between your whenever there's a gap between your internal values internal values internal values and your external actions, and your external actions, and your external actions, I believe that's where all of your I believe that's where all of your I believe that's where all of your problems start in life because you problems start in life because you problems start in life because you create this kind of void within you. create this kind of void within you. create this kind of void within you. There's not true alignment, and I think There's not true alignment, and I think There's not true alignment, and I think the closer you get to having your the closer you get to having your the closer you get to having your external actions matching your internal external actions matching your internal external actions matching your internal values, values, values, I think the happier you are, the more at I think the happier you are, the more at I think the happier you are, the more at peace you are, the less likely you are peace you are, the less likely you are peace you are, the less likely you are to engage in problematic behavior. So, to engage in problematic behavior. So, to engage in problematic behavior. So, I do think we talk about similar things, I do think we talk about similar things, I do think we talk about similar things, but but but probably look at things but but but probably look at things but but but probably look at things slightly differently, and we have a slightly differently, and we have a slightly differently, and we have a slightly different language for them. slightly different language for them. slightly different language for them. When you came into the house this When you came into the house this When you came into the house this morning, I was sharing with you how much morning, I was sharing with you how much morning, I was sharing with you how much I enjoy snooker. I enjoy snooker. I enjoy snooker. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And >> And >> And how in our front room we have a little how in our front room we have a little how in our front room we have a little table that table that table that sometimes I'll play with my kids, sometimes I'll play with my kids, sometimes I'll play with my kids, sometimes I'll play by myself, but I sometimes I'll play by myself, but I sometimes I'll play by myself, but I play play play for the inherent joy for the inherent joy for the inherent joy of playing. of playing. of playing. I can just be there by myself for 20 I can just be there by myself for 20 I can just be there by myself for 20 minutes, and minutes, and minutes, and to the external eye watching, it could to the external eye watching, it could to the external eye watching, it could be the most boring thing in the world, be the most boring thing in the world, be the most boring thing in the world, but to me, but to me, but to me, I'm trying to put little different bits I'm trying to put little different bits I'm trying to put little different bits of spin of spin of spin on the ball. I'm trying to see where on the ball. I'm trying to see where on the ball. I'm trying to see where exactly can I leave the white ball at exactly can I leave the white ball at exactly can I leave the white ball at the end. Can I get it to kick off a the end. Can I get it to kick off a the end. Can I get it to kick off a little bit more to the left when it hits little bit more to the left when it hits little bit more to the left when it hits the cushion? Like my wife would be the cushion? Like my wife would be the cushion? Like my wife would be watching that, and she'd probably think watching that, and she'd probably think watching that, and she'd probably think I I don't want to speak for her, but it I I don't want to speak for her, but it I I don't want to speak for her, but it let's put it this way, it's not her let's put it this way, it's not her let's put it this way, it's not her thing. thing. thing. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Hey, I think that's the best way to put >> Hey, I think that's the best way to put >> Hey, I think that's the best way to put it, right? And I think that's okay, it, right? And I think that's okay, it, right? And I think that's okay, right? Because I would argue that right? Because I would argue that right? Because I would argue that Okay, this is my bias, but I would say Okay, this is my bias, but I would say Okay, this is my bias, but I would say if you don't enjoy watching snooker, one if you don't enjoy watching snooker, one if you don't enjoy watching snooker, one of the reasons might be it's cuz you of the reasons might be it's cuz you of the reasons might be it's cuz you don't understand the game. If you really don't understand the game. If you really don't understand the game. If you really understood, and I played a lot of games, understood, and I played a lot of games, understood, and I played a lot of games, and I would I will still say and I would I will still say and I would I will still say to play snooker well on a full-size to play snooker well on a full-size to play snooker well on a full-size table, I think it's one of the most table, I think it's one of the most table, I think it's one of the most difficult games on the planet. I really difficult games on the planet. I really difficult games on the planet. I really do. do. do. It is exquisite, the skill these players It is exquisite, the skill these players It is exquisite, the skill these players have, have, have, and they are doing things with the cue and they are doing things with the cue and they are doing things with the cue ball that to the untrained eye you have ball that to the untrained eye you have ball that to the untrained eye you have no idea. You just think, "Oh, they're no idea. You just think, "Oh, they're no idea. You just think, "Oh, they're just hitting balls." just hitting balls." just hitting balls." If you play, you're like, "Oh my god, If you play, you're like, "Oh my god, If you play, you're like, "Oh my god, the way they caress the cue ball to come the way they caress the cue ball to come the way they caress the cue ball to come [laughter] back to that position to make [laughter] back to that position to make [laughter] back to that position to make the next pot look easy is a thing of the next pot look easy is a thing of the next pot look easy is a thing of beauty." beauty." beauty." >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> So, >> So, >> So, a lot to unpack there, but you you were a lot to unpack there, but you you were a lot to unpack there, but you you were I think when you came you said there I think when you came you said there I think when you came you said there were things you wanted to talk to me were things you wanted to talk to me were things you wanted to talk to me about about snooker and hobbies and about about snooker and hobbies and about about snooker and hobbies and >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> and what's so great about them? >> and what's so great about them? >> and what's so great about them? >> I think that's that story encapsulates >> I think that's that story encapsulates >> I think that's that story encapsulates so much about so much about so much about uh uh uh why I think games are so important to why I think games are so important to why I think games are so important to think about and understand and to think about and understand and to think about and understand and to uh cherish. And I think there's uh cherish. And I think there's uh cherish. And I think there's um um um there's two levels in which there's two levels in which there's two levels in which games and your relationship to snooker games and your relationship to snooker games and your relationship to snooker for me are uh are kind of the opposite of the metrics are kind of the opposite of the metrics to spare that we've been talking about. to spare that we've been talking about. to spare that we've been talking about. Um Um Um So, So, So, a lot of this uh a lot of this came for a lot of this uh a lot of this came for a lot of this uh a lot of this came for me. So, the the the book that you read me. So, the the the book that you read me. So, the the the book that you read is my second book. It's also my first is my second book. It's also my first is my second book. It's also my first popular book. My first book was an popular book. My first book was an popular book. My first book was an academic book about the nature of games academic book about the nature of games academic book about the nature of games and trying to understand what made games and trying to understand what made games and trying to understand what made games valuable and um So, actually the first book I wrote So, actually the first book I wrote basically out of irritation. Like, that basically out of irritation. Like, that basically out of irritation. Like, that was my starting motive. Like, I played was my starting motive. Like, I played was my starting motive. Like, I played games my entire life. Sports, video games my entire life. Sports, video games my entire life. Sports, video games. And I I'd been teaching a course games. And I I'd been teaching a course games. And I I'd been teaching a course about uh philosophy of art. And I wanted about uh philosophy of art. And I wanted about uh philosophy of art. And I wanted to do a case study about whether video to do a case study about whether video to do a case study about whether video games were art. So, my read a bunch of games were art. So, my read a bunch of games were art. So, my read a bunch of things with my students and I got really things with my students and I got really things with my students and I got really frustrated cuz all of these people tried frustrated cuz all of these people tried frustrated cuz all of these people tried to defend video games by pointing out to defend video games by pointing out to defend video games by pointing out how they were like movies. Like, they how they were like movies. Like, they how they were like movies. Like, they had cool cutscenes, they had good had cool cutscenes, they had good had cool cutscenes, they had good graphics, they had good dialogue. And I graphics, they had good dialogue. And I graphics, they had good dialogue. And I was angry. Uh cuz I thought it left out was angry. Uh cuz I thought it left out was angry. Uh cuz I thought it left out the thing that was most important to me the thing that was most important to me the thing that was most important to me about games, which was like about games, which was like about games, which was like the action part. The part where you the action part. The part where you the action part. The part where you exercise skill and we're like lost in exercise skill and we're like lost in exercise skill and we're like lost in your skill or like absorbed in both like your skill or like absorbed in both like your skill or like absorbed in both like just pure skill or absorbed in like just pure skill or absorbed in like just pure skill or absorbed in like interesting decisions or like interesting decisions or like interesting decisions or like ecstatically rich choice spaces or just ecstatically rich choice spaces or just ecstatically rich choice spaces or just being hyper creative like I think one of being hyper creative like I think one of being hyper creative like I think one of the most interesting parts of games is the most interesting parts of games is the most interesting parts of games is indie tabletop role-playing and in there indie tabletop role-playing and in there indie tabletop role-playing and in there the rules get players to be emergently the rules get players to be emergently the rules get players to be emergently creative together and invent stories creative together and invent stories creative together and invent stories together and I love all this stuff and together and I love all this stuff and together and I love all this stuff and it was missing. it was missing. it was missing. So I was trying to figure it out and I So I was trying to figure it out and I So I was trying to figure it out and I got I mean got I mean got I mean the it's funny cuz I feel like I'm the it's funny cuz I feel like I'm the it's funny cuz I feel like I'm telling everything in the reverse order telling everything in the reverse order telling everything in the reverse order from how it originally happened. Uh from how it originally happened. Uh from how it originally happened. Uh there's this moment where uh I found there's this moment where uh I found there's this moment where uh I found this game designer I love Reiner Knizia. this game designer I love Reiner Knizia. this game designer I love Reiner Knizia. He's a European board game designer. And He's a European board game designer. And He's a European board game designer. And he said uh in a lecture at the Game he said uh in a lecture at the Game he said uh in a lecture at the Game Developers Conference the most important Developers Conference the most important Developers Conference the most important thing in my game design toolbox is the thing in my game design toolbox is the thing in my game design toolbox is the scoring system cuz it tells the players scoring system cuz it tells the players scoring system cuz it tells the players what to care about. It sets their what to care about. It sets their what to care about. It sets their desires in the game and I was so struck desires in the game and I was so struck desires in the game and I was so struck by this. What I ended up thinking was by this. What I ended up thinking was by this. What I ended up thinking was what what a game what what a game what what a game does does does is it specifies desires and then it is it specifies desires and then it is it specifies desires and then it specifies limitations and abilities. It specifies limitations and abilities. It specifies limitations and abilities. It says use this cue ball. You you can't says use this cue ball. You you can't says use this cue ball. You you can't move the cue ball around with your hand. move the cue ball around with your hand. move the cue ball around with your hand. You got to use the stick, You got to use the stick, You got to use the stick, [clears throat] right? Uh you can't [clears throat] right? Uh you can't [clears throat] right? Uh you can't move the ball with your hands in soccer. move the ball with your hands in soccer. move the ball with your hands in soccer. You got to kick it, right? Um You got to kick it, right? Um You got to kick it, right? Um uh it does these things and then uh it does these things and then uh it does these things and then by doing so it plunges you into a very by doing so it plunges you into a very by doing so it plunges you into a very specific kind of activity. It plunges specific kind of activity. It plunges specific kind of activity. It plunges you into you into you into the hyper calculating like little tiny the hyper calculating like little tiny the hyper calculating like little tiny deflections of movement or hyper deflections of movement or hyper deflections of movement or hyper calculating exactly what toe angle will calculating exactly what toe angle will calculating exactly what toe angle will be able to use a rock climbing hold or be able to use a rock climbing hold or be able to use a rock climbing hold or hyper calculating 15 moves ahead in hyper calculating 15 moves ahead in hyper calculating 15 moves ahead in chess about like what all the possible chess about like what all the possible chess about like what all the possible logical moves in logical space are. logical moves in logical space are. logical moves in logical space are. >> rules to you need you need the obstacles >> rules to you need you need the obstacles >> rules to you need you need the obstacles to to to inspire the creativity, right? Don't inspire the creativity, right? Don't inspire the creativity, right? Don't you? You you know, without the rules it you? You you know, without the rules it you? You you know, without the rules it just wouldn't work. just wouldn't work. just wouldn't work. >> The definition to Bernard Suits as a >> The definition to Bernard Suits as a >> The definition to Bernard Suits as a philosopher that philosopher that philosopher that has been one of the biggest inspirations has been one of the biggest inspirations has been one of the biggest inspirations for me and he had this definition of for me and he had this definition of for me and he had this definition of games I find incredibly useful. He says, games I find incredibly useful. He says, games I find incredibly useful. He says, "To play a game is to voluntarily take "To play a game is to voluntarily take "To play a game is to voluntarily take on unnecessary obstacles to create the on unnecessary obstacles to create the on unnecessary obstacles to create the possibility of struggling to overcome possibility of struggling to overcome possibility of struggling to overcome them." them." them." And what this I mean I put And what this I mean I put And what this I mean I put >> Well, that's brilliant. >> Well, that's brilliant. >> Well, that's brilliant. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> You're creating obstacles so that you >> You're creating obstacles so that you >> You're creating obstacles so that you can experience can experience can experience the process of overcoming them. the process of overcoming them. the process of overcoming them. And you know cuz you don't need the And you know cuz you don't need the And you know cuz you don't need the obstacle, do you? Like I think you the obstacle, do you? Like I think you the obstacle, do you? Like I think you the example in the book is the marathon. example in the book is the marathon. example in the book is the marathon. You're like, you know, what what is a You're like, you know, what what is a You're like, you know, what what is a road marathon? It's like well, it's not road marathon? It's like well, it's not road marathon? It's like well, it's not the fastest place for me to be cuz you the fastest place for me to be cuz you the fastest place for me to be cuz you >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> you wouldn't do it that way, but that >> you wouldn't do it that way, but that >> you wouldn't do it that way, but that only counts if you do it the way in only counts if you do it the way in only counts if you do it the way in which it's prescribed by the organizers. which it's prescribed by the organizers. which it's prescribed by the organizers. >> Suits says, I mean marathons are a great >> Suits says, I mean marathons are a great >> Suits says, I mean marathons are a great example. Suits says that um example. Suits says that um example. Suits says that um that you can see from the structure of I mean you can see from the structure of I mean it's it's again it's one of these things it's it's again it's one of these things it's it's again it's one of these things that's so obvious. It's just lurking that's so obvious. It's just lurking that's so obvious. It's just lurking under the surface. under the surface. under the surface. Uh Uh Uh when you run a marathon, that's not the when you run a marathon, that's not the when you run a marathon, that's not the most efficient way to get to that point most efficient way to get to that point most efficient way to get to that point in space. Not only could in space. Not only could in space. Not only could you're supposed to run, you're not you're supposed to run, you're not you're supposed to run, you're not supposed to take a taxi, and you have to supposed to take a taxi, and you have to supposed to take a taxi, and you have to follow this course. You you can't take follow this course. You you can't take follow this course. You you can't take the most direct route. A lot of the the most direct route. A lot of the the most direct route. A lot of the times the finish line and the start line times the finish line and the start line times the finish line and the start line are like 2 ft apart. You could have are like 2 ft apart. You could have are like 2 ft apart. You could have gotten there much faster. Um and what gotten there much faster. Um and what gotten there much faster. Um and what that teaches us I mean one way is that that teaches us I mean one way is that that teaches us I mean one way is that one way to put it is that Suits is one way to put it is that Suits is one way to put it is that Suits is saying is that games are inefficiencies saying is that games are inefficiencies saying is that games are inefficiencies on purpose, on purpose, on purpose, right? We're limiting ourselves and right? We're limiting ourselves and right? We're limiting ourselves and we're taking the most efficient way to we're taking the most efficient way to we're taking the most efficient way to do things do things do things out of the picture and then we're trying out of the picture and then we're trying out of the picture and then we're trying to be efficient within to be efficient within to be efficient within an unnecessary efficiency, which means an unnecessary efficiency, which means an unnecessary efficiency, which means that it must be that what we care about that it must be that what we care about that it must be that what we care about is not the outcome on its own. We care is not the outcome on its own. We care is not the outcome on its own. We care about doing it a particular way. So, about doing it a particular way. So, about doing it a particular way. So, games games games >> love that. >> love that. >> love that. >> exemplify I mean we all we know all the >> exemplify I mean we all we know all the >> exemplify I mean we all we know all the the motto, you know, the journey is the the motto, you know, the journey is the the motto, you know, the journey is the destination, process over outcome. Games destination, process over outcome. Games destination, process over outcome. Games rub that in our face. What they force us rub that in our face. What they force us rub that in our face. What they force us to admit is that the thing that's to admit is that the thing that's to admit is that the thing that's valuable is a process of doing, of valuable is a process of doing, of valuable is a process of doing, of choosing, of acting, of being skillful, choosing, of acting, of being skillful, choosing, of acting, of being skillful, of goofing off, that it's in the of goofing off, that it's in the of goofing off, that it's in the process. And I think this is So, the process. And I think this is So, the process. And I think this is So, the first thing to say is I think the world first thing to say is I think the world first thing to say is I think the world of metrics ignores processes cuz those of metrics ignores processes cuz those of metrics ignores processes cuz those are very hard to count. The beauty of are very hard to count. The beauty of are very hard to count. The beauty of the process is very hard to count. the process is very hard to count. the process is very hard to count. And it's very The world of metrics is And it's very The world of metrics is And it's very The world of metrics is very good at picking up outcomes and very good at picking up outcomes and very good at picking up outcomes and products because those are easy to products because those are easy to products because those are easy to count. And games are this weird, count. And games are this weird, count. And games are this weird, beautiful paradox on the outside because beautiful paradox on the outside because beautiful paradox on the outside because in games we use hyper-clear scoring in games we use hyper-clear scoring in games we use hyper-clear scoring systems to get at a very unclear, systems to get at a very unclear, systems to get at a very unclear, hard-to-measure, subtle, ineffable hard-to-measure, subtle, ineffable hard-to-measure, subtle, ineffable thing, which is the beauty thing, which is the beauty thing, which is the beauty of doing. of doing. of doing. >> Yeah, the difference between goal and a >> Yeah, the difference between goal and a >> Yeah, the difference between goal and a purpose. purpose. purpose. >> Yeah. Yeah. I A lot of this I learned >> Yeah. Yeah. I A lot of this I learned >> Yeah. Yeah. I A lot of this I learned from from from a mentor of mine who casually commented a mentor of mine who casually commented a mentor of mine who casually commented one day, Barbara Herman, professor. She one day, Barbara Herman, professor. She one day, Barbara Herman, professor. She casually commented one day that we all casually commented one day that we all casually commented one day that we all had to remember the difference between a had to remember the difference between a had to remember the difference between a goal and a purpose. And I was like, "W- goal and a purpose. And I was like, "W- goal and a purpose. And I was like, "W- What's that?" And she said, "Well, if What's that?" And she said, "Well, if What's that?" And she said, "Well, if you have your friends over for cards, you have your friends over for cards, you have your friends over for cards, the goal is to win, and the purpose is the goal is to win, and the purpose is the goal is to win, and the purpose is to have fun." to have fun." to have fun." And I was just like, And I was just like, And I was just like, "Oh my god, of course, right? Like, a "Oh my god, of course, right? Like, a "Oh my god, of course, right? Like, a lot of the times we have this goal, and lot of the times we have this goal, and lot of the times we have this goal, and we pursue it intensely, and you can't we pursue it intensely, and you can't we pursue it intensely, and you can't get the purpose without the goal. You get the purpose without the goal. You get the purpose without the goal. You can't have fun just by trying to have can't have fun just by trying to have can't have fun just by trying to have fun. You try You have fun by trying to fun. You try You have fun by trying to fun. You try You have fun by trying to win." win." win." But, But, But, um um um what you actually care about is not the what you actually care about is not the what you actually care about is not the goal. So, the name I have for this in goal. So, the name I have for this in goal. So, the name I have for this in the philosophy of game stuff is I call the philosophy of game stuff is I call the philosophy of game stuff is I call it striving play. it striving play. it striving play. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Achievement play is where you try to win >> Achievement play is where you try to win >> Achievement play is where you try to win cuz you care about winning, and striving cuz you care about winning, and striving cuz you care about winning, and striving play is where you try to win just to play is where you try to win just to play is where you try to win just to have have have the process, but you need to try. So, the process, but you need to try. So, the process, but you need to try. So, one way to put it is in normal life we one way to put it is in normal life we one way to put it is in normal life we take the means for the sake of the ends, take the means for the sake of the ends, take the means for the sake of the ends, and in striving play we take the ends and in striving play we take the ends and in striving play we take the ends for the sake of the means. for the sake of the means. for the sake of the means. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You you There's a There's a couple of >> You you There's a There's a couple of >> You you There's a There's a couple of great examples in the book of this where great examples in the book of this where great examples in the book of this where I think it's your friend's 10-year-old I think it's your friend's 10-year-old I think it's your friend's 10-year-old son. son. son. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> He's playing Monopoly with his dad, your >> He's playing Monopoly with his dad, your >> He's playing Monopoly with his dad, your mate. mate. mate. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And your friend, the dad, thought, "Oh, >> And your friend, the dad, thought, "Oh, >> And your friend, the dad, thought, "Oh, yeah, I've lost, you know." But he was yeah, I've lost, you know." But he was yeah, I've lost, you know." But he was almost on the verge of losing for hours almost on the verge of losing for hours almost on the verge of losing for hours cuz every time his son would distract cuz every time his son would distract cuz every time his son would distract him and just sneak a bit of money into him and just sneak a bit of money into him and just sneak a bit of money into his pile because he wanted he didn't his pile because he wanted he didn't his pile because he wanted he didn't want the game to end. He wanted it to want the game to end. He wanted it to want the game to end. He wanted it to continue. continue. continue. >> And then the other example, which, you >> And then the other example, which, you >> And then the other example, which, you know, we played a lot of chess as a know, we played a lot of chess as a know, we played a lot of chess as a family, although we haven't played as family, although we haven't played as family, although we haven't played as much recently. So this is a good much recently. So this is a good much recently. So this is a good reminder to get back into it. reminder to get back into it. reminder to get back into it. You say in chess that you want a long, You say in chess that you want a long, You say in chess that you want a long, intense game, but you only get there intense game, but you only get there intense game, but you only get there by trying to win as quickly as possible. by trying to win as quickly as possible. by trying to win as quickly as possible. I thought that's true. That Whenever I'm I thought that's true. That Whenever I'm I thought that's true. That Whenever I'm playing with my kids and playing with my kids and playing with my kids and if it is like this 45-50 minute game, if it is like this 45-50 minute game, if it is like this 45-50 minute game, it's great, but you don't get that by it's great, but you don't get that by it's great, but you don't get that by trying to make it a 45-50 minute game. trying to make it a 45-50 minute game. trying to make it a 45-50 minute game. You you only get that by trying to win. You you only get that by trying to win. You you only get that by trying to win. >> Yeah, the most delicious >> Yeah, the most delicious >> Yeah, the most delicious the most delicious thing in chess is a the most delicious thing in chess is a the most delicious thing in chess is a long, drawn-out struggle that's intense long, drawn-out struggle that's intense long, drawn-out struggle that's intense and perfect, but you only get that if and perfect, but you only get that if and perfect, but you only get that if both of you are trying to win as quickly both of you are trying to win as quickly both of you are trying to win as quickly as possible. Um the there's a concept as possible. Um the there's a concept as possible. Um the there's a concept behind here that I think you would love, behind here that I think you would love, behind here that I think you would love, the concept of a self-effacing end. It's the concept of a self-effacing end. It's the concept of a self-effacing end. It's one of the deepest things I've learned one of the deepest things I've learned one of the deepest things I've learned from philosophy. So a self- This is an from philosophy. So a self- This is an from philosophy. So a self- This is an idea from Aristotle. A self-effacing end idea from Aristotle. A self-effacing end idea from Aristotle. A self-effacing end is an end that cannot be pursued is an end that cannot be pursued is an end that cannot be pursued directly. It's an end that to get to, directly. It's an end that to get to, directly. It's an end that to get to, you have to pursue something else. So he you have to pursue something else. So he you have to pursue something else. So he >> Oh, love that. >> Oh, love that. >> Oh, love that. >> Yeah, so his So um I think for me the >> Yeah, so his So um I think for me the >> Yeah, so his So um I think for me the easiest example is easiest example is easiest example is flow state or relaxation. I climb to flow state or relaxation. I climb to flow state or relaxation. I climb to relax. Here's a thing you cannot do, relax. Here's a thing you cannot do, relax. Here's a thing you cannot do, relax by trying to relax. If you sit relax by trying to relax. If you sit relax by trying to relax. If you sit there and think, "Relax," you will fail. there and think, "Relax," you will fail. there and think, "Relax," you will fail. So I relax by trying to get to the top So I relax by trying to get to the top So I relax by trying to get to the top of a rock. And the best way to relax is of a rock. And the best way to relax is of a rock. And the best way to relax is to forget that you're trying to relax to forget that you're trying to relax to forget that you're trying to relax and just get to try to get to the top of and just get to try to get to the top of and just get to try to get to the top of the rock. Um the rock. Um the rock. Um a a a a very clever example from philosophy is a very clever example from philosophy is a very clever example from philosophy is another self-effacing end is the another self-effacing end is the another self-effacing end is the pleasures of love. It is very pleasures of love. It is very pleasures of love. It is very pleasurable to be in love with somebody, pleasurable to be in love with somebody, pleasurable to be in love with somebody, but you can't love somebody else for but you can't love somebody else for but you can't love somebody else for your own pleasure. That's not love. You your own pleasure. That's not love. You your own pleasure. That's not love. You won't get those pleasures. And Aristotle won't get those pleasures. And Aristotle won't get those pleasures. And Aristotle thought that happiness was a thought that happiness was a thought that happiness was a self-effacing end. He thought you self-effacing end. He thought you self-effacing end. He thought you couldn't go out directly chasing couldn't go out directly chasing couldn't go out directly chasing happiness. He thought you had to chase happiness. He thought you had to chase happiness. He thought you had to chase scientific discovery, artistic scientific discovery, artistic scientific discovery, artistic achievement, helping people. That was achievement, helping people. That was achievement, helping people. That was the way to be happy. That happiness as a the way to be happy. That happiness as a the way to be happy. That happiness as a kind of goal was too nebulous to kind of goal was too nebulous to kind of goal was too nebulous to >> effect. >> effect. >> effect. >> Yeah, it it it just it's what you really >> Yeah, it it it just it's what you really >> Yeah, it it it just it's what you really want. But it's a side effect of some want. But it's a side effect of some want. But it's a side effect of some other goal. So games are like a sneaky other goal. So games are like a sneaky other goal. So games are like a sneaky way to get at self-effacing ends. And we way to get at self-effacing ends. And we way to get at self-effacing ends. And we kind of like I can openly say I climb in kind of like I can openly say I climb in kind of like I can openly say I climb in order to relax. I fish in order to order to relax. I fish in order to order to relax. I fish in order to meditate. In general, I can say that meditate. In general, I can say that meditate. In general, I can say that before I do it. But to get that effect before I do it. But to get that effect before I do it. But to get that effect when I'm doing it, I mostly have to when I'm doing it, I mostly have to when I'm doing it, I mostly have to forget that. I mostly have to just forget that. I mostly have to just forget that. I mostly have to just focus. focus. focus. >> Yeah, it's >> Yeah, it's >> Yeah, it's it kind of makes me to really think it kind of makes me to really think it kind of makes me to really think about how captured we all are about how captured we all are about how captured we all are by by by metrics. And you know, I I I I touched metrics. And you know, I I I I touched metrics. And you know, I I I I touched on it already, but on it already, but on it already, but you know, sometimes I'll talk you know, sometimes I'll talk you know, sometimes I'll talk about the importance of hobbies. about the importance of hobbies. about the importance of hobbies. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And doing things that you love, right? >> And doing things that you love, right? >> And doing things that you love, right? But what I usually say But what I usually say But what I usually say right? right? right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> To justify >> To justify >> To justify >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> why would a medical doctor be talking to >> why would a medical doctor be talking to >> why would a medical doctor be talking to you about doing something that you love? you about doing something that you love? you about doing something that you love? I say that there is research data I say that there is research data I say that there is research data showing that people who regularly do showing that people who regularly do showing that people who regularly do things that they love things that they love things that they love >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> are more resilient to stress. >> are more resilient to stress. >> are more resilient to stress. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> I mean, what's wrong with just doing >> I mean, what's wrong with just doing >> I mean, what's wrong with just doing something because you enjoy it? Nothing. something because you enjoy it? Nothing. something because you enjoy it? Nothing. But something has happened where I feel But something has happened where I feel But something has happened where I feel the need to say Oh yeah, yeah, but you the need to say Oh yeah, yeah, but you the need to say Oh yeah, yeah, but you know what? There are these benefits. know what? There are these benefits. know what? There are these benefits. >> Right. Exactly. Something you enjoy. >> Right. Exactly. Something you enjoy. >> Right. Exactly. Something you enjoy. >> As if the benefit of just feeling good >> As if the benefit of just feeling good >> As if the benefit of just feeling good and being immersed in something isn't and being immersed in something isn't and being immersed in something isn't enough in enough itself. enough in enough itself. enough in enough itself. >> this is in Aristotle. What I mean, how >> this is in Aristotle. What I mean, how >> this is in Aristotle. What I mean, how how about this? how about this? how about this? The dumbest, stupidest question is Well, The dumbest, stupidest question is Well, The dumbest, stupidest question is Well, what's happiness for? What What do you what's happiness for? What What do you what's happiness for? What What do you get out of it? And the answer is you get out of it? And the answer is you get out of it? And the answer is you say, "No, it's happiness. It's what we say, "No, it's happiness. It's what we say, "No, it's happiness. It's what we want." And I feel like a lot of medical want." And I feel like a lot of medical want." And I feel like a lot of medical science has become, well, we need to science has become, well, we need to science has become, well, we need to justify happiness justify happiness justify happiness because it'll help us make more money. because it'll help us make more money. because it'll help us make more money. And you're like, no, you've got it the And you're like, no, you've got it the And you're like, no, you've got it the wrong way around. I think, okay, two two wrong way around. I think, okay, two two wrong way around. I think, okay, two two two things that are really important. two things that are really important. two things that are really important. Bernard Suits, at the end of this book, Bernard Suits, at the end of this book, Bernard Suits, at the end of this book, The Grasshopper, The Grasshopper, The Grasshopper, he has an argument. His argument is, he has an argument. His argument is, he has an argument. His argument is, imagine utopia. Imagine something where imagine utopia. Imagine something where imagine utopia. Imagine something where we solved all our practical problems we solved all our practical problems we solved all our practical problems through technology. through technology. through technology. What would we do in utopia? What would we do in utopia? What would we do in utopia? We would play games, or we would be We would play games, or we would be We would play games, or we would be bored out of our skulls. So, it must be bored out of our skulls. So, it must be bored out of our skulls. So, it must be that games are the meaning of life. that games are the meaning of life. that games are the meaning of life. They give this argument, and people They give this argument, and people They give this argument, and people laugh. But what he's he's actually So, laugh. But what he's he's actually So, laugh. But what he's he's actually So, Suits was an Aristotle scholar, and Suits was an Aristotle scholar, and Suits was an Aristotle scholar, and he's just representing the Aristotelian he's just representing the Aristotelian he's just representing the Aristotelian idea that the meaning of life comes in idea that the meaning of life comes in idea that the meaning of life comes in human activity, not in human outcomes. human activity, not in human outcomes. human activity, not in human outcomes. That the meaning of life lies in That the meaning of life lies in That the meaning of life lies in exercising capacities, doing things, exercising capacities, doing things, exercising capacities, doing things, doing things interestingly, and that doing things interestingly, and that doing things interestingly, and that outcomes are just the thing that either outcomes are just the thing that either outcomes are just the thing that either helps us focus us so that we can have helps us focus us so that we can have helps us focus us so that we can have these capacities, or they're the kind of these capacities, or they're the kind of these capacities, or they're the kind of instrumental background resources we instrumental background resources we instrumental background resources we need to support us so we can get to the need to support us so we can get to the need to support us so we can get to the doing, right? So, I mean, I think Suits doing, right? So, I mean, I think Suits doing, right? So, I mean, I think Suits thinks that games just make that clear thinks that games just make that clear thinks that games just make that clear and obvious. and obvious. and obvious. And I But I think there's something else And I But I think there's something else And I But I think there's something else that's really interesting in what you that's really interesting in what you that's really interesting in what you said. said. said. I totally see there's there's a I totally see there's there's a I totally see there's there's a philosophical position from which philosophical position from which philosophical position from which doctors should not really talk about doctors should not really talk about doctors should not really talk about what's meaningful. They should just talk what's meaningful. They should just talk what's meaningful. They should just talk about these affairs of health. And about these affairs of health. And about these affairs of health. And there's a So, there's a part in I hang there's a So, there's a part in I hang there's a So, there's a part in I hang out with a lot of medical ethicists. And out with a lot of medical ethicists. And out with a lot of medical ethicists. And one of the things they say is, one of the things they say is, one of the things they say is, the problem has been when medicine tells the problem has been when medicine tells the problem has been when medicine tells people what the meaning or value of life people what the meaning or value of life people what the meaning or value of life is. That should be up to the person. is. That should be up to the person. is. That should be up to the person. That should be an autonomous decision That should be an autonomous decision That should be an autonomous decision for the person. Medicine, objective for the person. Medicine, objective for the person. Medicine, objective medicine, should stand back and just medicine, should stand back and just medicine, should stand back and just tell people about what will help you tell people about what will help you tell people about what will help you survive so that you can make your own survive so that you can make your own survive so that you can make your own choices about what's meaningful. So, choices about what's meaningful. So, choices about what's meaningful. So, that makes perfect sense to me. Once that makes perfect sense to me. Once that makes perfect sense to me. Once again, so long as we accept that health again, so long as we accept that health again, so long as we accept that health care is a resource that's useful on the care is a resource that's useful on the care is a resource that's useful on the way to the other thing that's way to the other thing that's way to the other thing that's meaningful. meaningful. meaningful. But then what it looks like is because But then what it looks like is because But then what it looks like is because of of of the value capture, we've forgotten about the value capture, we've forgotten about the value capture, we've forgotten about the meaning part because it's so the meaning part because it's so the meaning part because it's so variable and subtle, and we've just variable and subtle, and we've just variable and subtle, and we've just hyper-focused on what are supposed to be hyper-focused on what are supposed to be hyper-focused on what are supposed to be the instrumental resources. Money is the instrumental resources. Money is the instrumental resources. Money is useful to do other stuff. Health is useful to do other stuff. Health is useful to do other stuff. Health is useful to do other stuff. Because some useful to do other stuff. Because some useful to do other stuff. Because some aspects of that are highly countable, aspects of that are highly countable, aspects of that are highly countable, we've we've we've forgotten that it was supposed to be on forgotten that it was supposed to be on forgotten that it was supposed to be on the way to something else and taken it the way to something else and taken it the way to something else and taken it as the end to itself just because it's as the end to itself just because it's as the end to itself just because it's so easy to publicly count. so easy to publicly count. so easy to publicly count. Yeah. >> I have realized over the last few years >> I have realized over the last few years that that that one of the things I care the most about one of the things I care the most about one of the things I care the most about for myself and for the world for myself and for the world for myself and for the world is kindness. is kindness. is kindness. And And And I articulated this publicly I articulated this publicly I articulated this publicly last summer at the end of my Sydney show last summer at the end of my Sydney show last summer at the end of my Sydney show when someone asked me when someone asked me when someone asked me if you could prescribe one pill if you could prescribe one pill if you could prescribe one pill to everyone on the planet to everyone on the planet to everyone on the planet what would it be? And I thought about it and I said it And I thought about it and I said it would be a compassion pill. would be a compassion pill. would be a compassion pill. And I explained why and and and and one And I explained why and and and and one And I explained why and and and and one of the things I said was that on the of the things I said was that on the of the things I said was that on the face of it face of it face of it it seems as though what I do with this it seems as though what I do with this it seems as though what I do with this podcast or with my books or with my live podcast or with my books or with my live podcast or with my books or with my live talks or whatever it might be is that it talks or whatever it might be is that it talks or whatever it might be is that it on the face it seems that what I'm about on the face it seems that what I'm about on the face it seems that what I'm about is health and happiness. is health and happiness. is health and happiness. And it is, but I don't think it's And it is, but I don't think it's And it is, but I don't think it's necessarily for necessarily for necessarily for health and happiness as the end goal. health and happiness as the end goal. health and happiness as the end goal. I'm like what why what why does it I'm like what why what why does it I'm like what why what why does it matter that you're healthy? matter that you're healthy? matter that you're healthy? Right? Well, I it's up to you to decide Right? Well, I it's up to you to decide Right? Well, I it's up to you to decide if it does matter to you, but if it does matter to you, but if it does matter to you, but I think if you're healthier I think if you're healthier I think if you're healthier and happier and happier and happier you're more likely to be a kind you're more likely to be a kind you're more likely to be a kind compassionate human being. compassionate human being. compassionate human being. Like I I really do believe that. I think Like I I really do believe that. I think Like I I really do believe that. I think a lot of the time when people don't a lot of the time when people don't a lot of the time when people don't behave well with other people or they're behave well with other people or they're behave well with other people or they're reactive or they're reactive or they're reactive or they're fighting people online, it's cuz they're fighting people online, it's cuz they're fighting people online, it's cuz they're triggered, they're stressed, they're triggered, they're stressed, they're triggered, they're stressed, they're busy, they're they don't feel good in busy, they're they don't feel good in busy, they're they don't feel good in themselves and therefore that themselves and therefore that themselves and therefore that permeates to the people around them. So, I actually believe that So, I actually believe that I I think what this show is about I I think what this show is about I I think what this show is about really is about trying to create a more really is about trying to create a more really is about trying to create a more compassionate world because when you compassionate world because when you compassionate world because when you understand yourself better, when you do understand yourself better, when you do understand yourself better, when you do the things that are going to give you the things that are going to give you the things that are going to give you energy and vitality, energy and vitality, energy and vitality, I think most people, maybe not everyone, I think most people, maybe not everyone, I think most people, maybe not everyone, but most people are going to behave in a but most people are going to behave in a but most people are going to behave in a much more compassionate way. much more compassionate way. much more compassionate way. You're itching to say stuff. So, you You're itching to say stuff. So, you You're itching to say stuff. So, you know, feel free. know, feel free. know, feel free. >> Okay. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. We're both experts of a sort. We're both experts of a sort. We're both experts of a sort. You're an expert in health. I'm an You're an expert in health. I'm an You're an expert in health. I'm an expert in philosophy to the extent that expert in philosophy to the extent that expert in philosophy to the extent that matters anyone. matters anyone. matters anyone. And um I think I think when people look to us, when people look to us, when people look to us, they want certain kinds of advice about they want certain kinds of advice about they want certain kinds of advice about what to do and what they're looking for what to do and what they're looking for what to do and what they're looking for us and what it seems we might want to us and what it seems we might want to us and what it seems we might want to provide is a definitive answer of what provide is a definitive answer of what provide is a definitive answer of what meaning is or what it's for, what meaning is or what it's for, what meaning is or what it's for, what happiness is, what health is, what the happiness is, what health is, what the happiness is, what health is, what the meaning of life is. And maybe what we meaning of life is. And maybe what we meaning of life is. And maybe what we should do is refrain. should do is refrain. should do is refrain. Because I mean, I think this is close to Because I mean, I think this is close to Because I mean, I think this is close to what you're saying before. Sometimes I what you're saying before. Sometimes I what you're saying before. Sometimes I think think think the real I don't have a good argument the real I don't have a good argument the real I don't have a good argument for this, but what my gut cries out to for this, but what my gut cries out to for this, but what my gut cries out to say [clears throat] say [clears throat] say [clears throat] is the real problem of metrics as values is the real problem of metrics as values is the real problem of metrics as values is they're dead. is they're dead. is they're dead. They can't change. They're pre-fixed. They can't change. They're pre-fixed. They can't change. They're pre-fixed. The their stability and rigidity The their stability and rigidity The their stability and rigidity is one of the core is one of the core is one of the core problems and maybe what it is to be a problems and maybe what it is to be a problems and maybe what it is to be a live being, a fully alive being, is live being, a fully alive being, is live being, a fully alive being, is you're constantly renegotiating what's you're constantly renegotiating what's you're constantly renegotiating what's valuable and meaningful for you. You're valuable and meaningful for you. You're valuable and meaningful for you. You're constantly alive to questioning the constantly alive to questioning the constantly alive to questioning the terms and resetting them. And maybe what terms and resetting them. And maybe what terms and resetting them. And maybe what we should not do here is say, "Here's we should not do here is say, "Here's we should not do here is say, "Here's the meaning of life. Be compassionate. the meaning of life. Be compassionate. the meaning of life. Be compassionate. Here's the meaning of like instead what Here's the meaning of like instead what Here's the meaning of like instead what we should try to be is uh we should try to be is uh we should try to be is uh midwife to the process. midwife to the process. midwife to the process. Right? Right? Right? Like to set I mean, [clears throat] I Like to set I mean, [clears throat] I Like to set I mean, [clears throat] I think about this a lot in my classroom. think about this a lot in my classroom. think about this a lot in my classroom. I think there's one conception of what I think there's one conception of what I think there's one conception of what I'm trying to do is I'm going to teach I'm trying to do is I'm going to teach I'm trying to do is I'm going to teach you philosophy. I'm going to teach you you philosophy. I'm going to teach you you philosophy. I'm going to teach you correct answers. And another conception correct answers. And another conception correct answers. And another conception of what you're doing and this was this of what you're doing and this was this of what you're doing and this was this is actually I'm stealing this by the way is actually I'm stealing this by the way is actually I'm stealing this by the way from Socrates. Socrates thought he was a from Socrates. Socrates thought he was a from Socrates. Socrates thought he was a mid he actually used the term, "I'm a mid he actually used the term, "I'm a mid he actually used the term, "I'm a midwife to other people's ideas and midwife to other people's ideas and midwife to other people's ideas and conceptions." What you can think of conceptions." What you can think of conceptions." What you can think of yourself as doing is being like, "Oh, yourself as doing is being like, "Oh, yourself as doing is being like, "Oh, no. no. no. I want you to be constantly alive and I want you to be constantly alive and I want you to be constantly alive and renegotiating and thinking and like renegotiating and thinking and like renegotiating and thinking and like changing your mind and I want to trigger changing your mind and I want to trigger changing your mind and I want to trigger that process. So, maybe one thing we can that process. So, maybe one thing we can that process. So, maybe one thing we can do do do is refuse to give the answer is refuse to give the answer is refuse to give the answer of what it's of what it's of what it's for. for. for. >> But I I I would say that's what this >> But I I I would say that's what this >> But I I I would say that's what this show has always done, right? I never show has always done, right? I never show has always done, right? I never tell have told anyone what to do on this tell have told anyone what to do on this tell have told anyone what to do on this show, ever. show, ever. show, ever. In fact, I won't give people In fact, I won't give people In fact, I won't give people prescriptive advice. What I what I think prescriptive advice. What I what I think prescriptive advice. What I what I think this podcast is about is sharing ideas. this podcast is about is sharing ideas. this podcast is about is sharing ideas. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> And if someone listening to it thinks >> And if someone listening to it thinks >> And if someone listening to it thinks that might be useful for me and that might be useful for me and that might be useful for me and chooses to then bring it into their chooses to then bring it into their chooses to then bring it into their life, great. But I'm not trying to tell life, great. But I'm not trying to tell life, great. But I'm not trying to tell you what to do. you what to do. you what to do. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> That's up to you. You're an autonomous >> That's up to you. You're an autonomous >> That's up to you. You're an autonomous individual who's got every right to live individual who's got every right to live individual who's got every right to live life in the way that you want to as long life in the way that you want to as long life in the way that you want to as long as you're not harming other people, as you're not harming other people, as you're not harming other people, right? right? right? Um and when I say that Um and when I say that Um and when I say that my goal is to try and create or do my my goal is to try and create or do my my goal is to try and create or do my small part to help create a more small part to help create a more small part to help create a more compassionate world, compassionate world, compassionate world, that's purely coming from me. I'm not that's purely coming from me. I'm not that's purely coming from me. I'm not putting that on someone else that they putting that on someone else that they putting that on someone else that they they may listen to this conversation they may listen to this conversation they may listen to this conversation because they want to understand the because they want to understand the because they want to understand the world better. They may listen to this world better. They may listen to this world better. They may listen to this podcast because they want to lose podcast because they want to lose podcast because they want to lose weight. weight. weight. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> They can take from these conversations >> They can take from these conversations >> They can take from these conversations what they will. what they will. what they will. I can also go in with my intention and I I can also go in with my intention and I I can also go in with my intention and I think both things can can be true. think both things can can be true. think both things can can be true. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Do you see what I'm saying? >> Do you see what I'm saying? >> Do you see what I'm saying? >> Yeah. Can I try I think >> Yeah. Can I try I think >> Yeah. Can I try I think >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> what you're doing is incredibly >> what you're doing is incredibly >> what you're doing is incredibly interesting and radical. And I interesting and radical. And I interesting and radical. And I I think I think I think let me try to describe my understanding let me try to describe my understanding let me try to describe my understanding of what your understanding of what of what your understanding of what of what your understanding of what you're doing is in you're doing is in you're doing is in philosophy terms. philosophy terms. philosophy terms. It's kind of close to a journey I've It's kind of close to a journey I've It's kind of close to a journey I've been through. been through. been through. So, I spent a lot of time intellectually So, I spent a lot of time intellectually So, I spent a lot of time intellectually worried about authoritarianism, worried worried about authoritarianism, worried worried about authoritarianism, worried about dictating people, worried about about dictating people, worried about about dictating people, worried about people's loss of autonomy. And I'll people's loss of autonomy. And I'll people's loss of autonomy. And I'll teach this stuff in the classroom and teach this stuff in the classroom and teach this stuff in the classroom and then I realized that I'd grown up in a then I realized that I'd grown up in a then I realized that I'd grown up in a style of teaching philosophy style of teaching philosophy style of teaching philosophy that was deeply hypocritical cuz I was that was deeply hypocritical cuz I was that was deeply hypocritical cuz I was doing that by telling my students doing that by telling my students doing that by telling my students exactly what to think exactly what to think exactly what to think and giving them a clear grading system and giving them a clear grading system and giving them a clear grading system that told them exactly how they're that told them exactly how they're that told them exactly how they're supposed to learn. And I was dictating supposed to learn. And I was dictating supposed to learn. And I was dictating to them about the importance of not to them about the importance of not to them about the importance of not being a dictator and that's being a dictator and that's being a dictator and that's hypocritical. hypocritical. hypocritical. And I think one thing you might think is And I think one thing you might think is And I think one thing you might think is the goal of the goal of the goal of medicine medicine medicine is this I sound like this is so is this I sound like this is so is this I sound like this is so Aristotelian. The The goal of medicine Aristotelian. The The goal of medicine Aristotelian. The The goal of medicine is to help people become better people is to help people become better people is to help people become better people and more fully people. and more fully people. and more fully people. And if you do that by be And if you do that by be And if you do that by be presenting yourself as an expert and presenting yourself as an expert and presenting yourself as an expert and telling people to stop thinking about telling people to stop thinking about telling people to stop thinking about what they want out of life and simply to what they want out of life and simply to what they want out of life and simply to obey the clear measures of what health obey the clear measures of what health obey the clear measures of what health is, then you've undercut the process cuz is, then you've undercut the process cuz is, then you've undercut the process cuz you're undercutting their autonomy. And you're undercutting their autonomy. And you're undercutting their autonomy. And so, I think it sounds to me like what so, I think it sounds to me like what so, I think it sounds to me like what you're aiming for you're aiming for you're aiming for is a kind of richer medical practice is a kind of richer medical practice is a kind of richer medical practice that tends to a healthy and free person. that tends to a healthy and free person. that tends to a healthy and free person. And part of that is about refraining And part of that is about refraining And part of that is about refraining from dictating specifics. And I see part from dictating specifics. And I see part from dictating specifics. And I see part of That's part of the relationship to of That's part of the relationship to of That's part of the relationship to metrics cuz I think both of us are metrics cuz I think both of us are metrics cuz I think both of us are worried that metrics are a form of worried that metrics are a form of worried that metrics are a form of dictating value and procedure. And so, dictating value and procedure. And so, dictating value and procedure. And so, there's something deeply paradoxical there's something deeply paradoxical there's something deeply paradoxical about trying to tend to people's like about trying to tend to people's like about trying to tend to people's like alive well-being by trying to kill the alive well-being by trying to kill the alive well-being by trying to kill the aliveness of their relationship to their aliveness of their relationship to their aliveness of their relationship to their lives. lives. lives. >> I really like the way you've articulated >> I really like the way you've articulated >> I really like the way you've articulated that. that. that. One I've never One I've never One I've never done done done in my career as a doctor is tell a in my career as a doctor is tell a in my career as a doctor is tell a patient that they must give up smoking. patient that they must give up smoking. patient that they must give up smoking. >> Right. Yep. >> Right. Yep. >> Right. Yep. >> What I have done on numerous occasions >> What I have done on numerous occasions >> What I have done on numerous occasions is if a patient came in to see me is if a patient came in to see me is if a patient came in to see me >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> and asked my opinion, >> and asked my opinion, >> and asked my opinion, I would tell them what I thought smoking I would tell them what I thought smoking I would tell them what I thought smoking was doing to them and the impact it was was doing to them and the impact it was was doing to them and the impact it was having on their health. having on their health. having on their health. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> If at the end of that conversation I was >> If at the end of that conversation I was >> If at the end of that conversation I was confident that that patient fully confident that that patient fully confident that that patient fully understood what I had said understood what I had said understood what I had said >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> and they then said, "Hey doc, I've I've >> and they then said, "Hey doc, I've I've >> and they then said, "Hey doc, I've I've heard you. I get it. I understand the heard you. I get it. I understand the heard you. I get it. I understand the risks. risks. risks. But I get so much enjoyment out of But I get so much enjoyment out of But I get so much enjoyment out of smoking smoking smoking that I'm prepared to put up with those that I'm prepared to put up with those that I'm prepared to put up with those risks." risks." risks." I'll be like, "Okay." I'll be like, "Okay." I'll be like, "Okay." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I I never thought my role as a doctor >> I I never thought my role as a doctor >> I I never thought my role as a doctor was to go, "No, no, no. You don't was to go, "No, no, no. You don't was to go, "No, no, no. You don't understand. You you must do this." understand. You you must do this." understand. You you must do this." >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And actually, I would argue that not >> And actually, I would argue that not >> And actually, I would argue that not that this was the goal, but I would that this was the goal, but I would that this was the goal, but I would I can think of many occasions where that I can think of many occasions where that I can think of many occasions where that same person, because I didn't try and same person, because I didn't try and same person, because I didn't try and tell them what to do, tell them what to do, tell them what to do, >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> they'd often come back a few months >> they'd often come back a few months >> they'd often come back a few months later. later. later. Go, "Hey doc, you know what? Go, "Hey doc, you know what? Go, "Hey doc, you know what? A few months ago we had that chat about A few months ago we had that chat about A few months ago we had that chat about smoking. smoking. smoking. I actually think I actually think I actually think I'm ready to start I'm ready to start I'm ready to start reducing or or trying to quit. Can you reducing or or trying to quit. Can you reducing or or trying to quit. Can you help me?" help me?" help me?" And And And again, my reasoning behind that is I again, my reasoning behind that is I again, my reasoning behind that is I don't think any human being wants to be don't think any human being wants to be don't think any human being wants to be told what to do by anyone else. told what to do by anyone else. told what to do by anyone else. Right? So, if I can Right? So, if I can Right? So, if I can treat that patient with respect and give treat that patient with respect and give treat that patient with respect and give them autonomy and respect their them autonomy and respect their them autonomy and respect their autonomy, go, "Okay, fine. You know, who autonomy, go, "Okay, fine. You know, who autonomy, go, "Okay, fine. You know, who am I to say that you should care? It's am I to say that you should care? It's am I to say that you should care? It's like your brie example, right? A doctor like your brie example, right? A doctor like your brie example, right? A doctor might go to you and say, might go to you and say, might go to you and say, "Hey, listen. I've done your blood "Hey, listen. I've done your blood "Hey, listen. I've done your blood tests. You need to stop eating brie tests. You need to stop eating brie tests. You need to stop eating brie >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> because I don't think I think it's going >> because I don't think I think it's going >> because I don't think I think it's going to shorten your life." to shorten your life." to shorten your life." >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> You may team may think, >> You may team may think, >> You may team may think, "I I care. I don't feel my life would be "I I care. I don't feel my life would be "I I care. I don't feel my life would be worth living if the next few decades I worth living if the next few decades I worth living if the next few decades I can't eat any bread. I don't You know can't eat any bread. I don't You know can't eat any bread. I don't You know what I'm Do you know what I'm trying to what I'm Do you know what I'm trying to what I'm Do you know what I'm trying to get at? I Okay. get at? I Okay. get at? I Okay. I mean I mean I mean and I I definitely want to acknowledge and I I definitely want to acknowledge and I I definitely want to acknowledge that I feel imposter syndrome talking to that I feel imposter syndrome talking to that I feel imposter syndrome talking to a philosophy professor about these kind a philosophy professor about these kind a philosophy professor about these kind of concepts. of concepts. of concepts. >> this is you you you are at the heart of >> this is you you you are at the heart of >> this is you you you are at the heart of it. it. it. >> I mean, one general feature >> I mean, one general feature >> I mean, one general feature of what I'm worried about of what I'm worried about of what I'm worried about is that we are by trying we are like is that we are by trying we are like is that we are by trying we are like trying to help people and the methods we trying to help people and the methods we trying to help people and the methods we have of helping people have actually have of helping people have actually have of helping people have actually killed the most important thing about killed the most important thing about killed the most important thing about peopleness, which is freedom. peopleness, which is freedom. peopleness, which is freedom. And I think like if you dictate to And I think like if you dictate to And I think like if you dictate to people endlessly what they're supposed people endlessly what they're supposed people endlessly what they're supposed to do in the name of their being better to do in the name of their being better to do in the name of their being better and they come to have the posture of and they come to have the posture of and they come to have the posture of never thinking for themselves about what never thinking for themselves about what never thinking for themselves about what matters to them matters to them matters to them then you have like removed the most then you have like removed the most then you have like removed the most important magic ingredient in the name important magic ingredient in the name important magic ingredient in the name of optimization. I mean, I think this is of optimization. I mean, I think this is of optimization. I mean, I think this is one of one of one of one of one of one of One of the reasons I care so much about One of the reasons I care so much about One of the reasons I care so much about play play play is I think playfulness is is I think playfulness is is I think playfulness is is our name for a particular kind of is our name for a particular kind of is our name for a particular kind of freedom. freedom. freedom. To be playful So, Maria Lugones is one To be playful So, Maria Lugones is one To be playful So, Maria Lugones is one of my favorite philosophers says that to of my favorite philosophers says that to of my favorite philosophers says that to be playful is to be able to move lightly be playful is to be able to move lightly be playful is to be able to move lightly between different rule worlds, to be between different rule worlds, to be between different rule worlds, to be able to like dance between different able to like dance between different able to like dance between different conceptions of who you are and what conceptions of who you are and what conceptions of who you are and what you're supposed to be. you're supposed to be. you're supposed to be. Um and I think one of the things I've Um and I think one of the things I've Um and I think one of the things I've come to believe the most deeply while come to believe the most deeply while come to believe the most deeply while writing this writing this writing this was the reason I love games was the reason I love games was the reason I love games is that games is that games is that games are an encapsulation are an encapsulation are an encapsulation of something I really care about, which of something I really care about, which of something I really care about, which is is is how we can help each other to be free. how we can help each other to be free. how we can help each other to be free. Because games are a system where people Because games are a system where people Because games are a system where people make them and write them and give them make them and write them and give them make them and write them and give them to each other, but give them each other to each other, but give them each other to each other, but give them each other in a system that encourages people to in a system that encourages people to in a system that encourages people to move between them and discover what they move between them and discover what they move between them and discover what they want. This is a games are freeing want. This is a games are freeing want. This is a games are freeing because they let you play around with because they let you play around with because they let you play around with meaning making. And I think meaning making. And I think meaning making. And I think metrics, in the way that we're presented metrics, in the way that we're presented metrics, in the way that we're presented with them in institutions, with them in institutions, with them in institutions, are anti-free are anti-free are anti-free because they're presented as because they're presented as because they're presented as authoritative. They're presented as authoritative. They're presented as authoritative. They're presented as authoritative renditions of value. I authoritative renditions of value. I authoritative renditions of value. I think metrics are a way think metrics are a way think metrics are a way that we have what's actually going on that we have what's actually going on that we have what's actually going on with metrics is a social system in which with metrics is a social system in which with metrics is a social system in which distant forces tell people distant forces tell people distant forces tell people what's meaningful and what they should what's meaningful and what they should what's meaningful and what they should pursue rather than giving them the pursue rather than giving them the pursue rather than giving them the structure structure structure that encourages them to figure out what that encourages them to figure out what that encourages them to figure out what matters to them. matters to them. matters to them. And I think games are one way to give And I think games are one way to give And I think games are one way to give that structure. The thing you're that structure. The thing you're that structure. The thing you're describing sounds like you're reaching describing sounds like you're reaching describing sounds like you're reaching for a form of relating to patients that for a form of relating to patients that for a form of relating to patients that also also also is structurally designed is structurally designed is structurally designed to lift up their capacity to think for to lift up their capacity to think for to lift up their capacity to think for themselves and be free rather than to themselves and be free rather than to themselves and be free rather than to undermine it. undermine it. undermine it. >> Yeah, who am I to say to another human >> Yeah, who am I to say to another human >> Yeah, who am I to say to another human being what they should care about? Yeah. being what they should care about? Yeah. being what they should care about? Yeah. It's not my role, whether I'm their It's not my role, whether I'm their It's not my role, whether I'm their doctor or not. It's not my role. You doctor or not. It's not my role. You doctor or not. It's not my role. You care about what you want to care about, care about what you want to care about, care about what you want to care about, but the question is, do you know what but the question is, do you know what but the question is, do you know what you care about, right? Or is what you you care about, right? Or is what you you care about, right? Or is what you care about, has that been shaped by care about, has that been shaped by care about, has that been shaped by external metrics, i.e. by somebody else? external metrics, i.e. by somebody else? external metrics, i.e. by somebody else? There were a couple of things I wanted There were a couple of things I wanted There were a couple of things I wanted to I mean to I mean to I mean I I could talk to you for hours. I I could talk to you for hours. I I could talk to you for hours. Honestly, that the book is so freaking Honestly, that the book is so freaking Honestly, that the book is so freaking good and it's good and it's good and it's it's so it'll really have people thinking about it'll really have people thinking about their own lives, how they make their own lives, how they make their own lives, how they make decisions, where their decisions, where their decisions, where their where their preferences and values have where their preferences and values have where their preferences and values have even come from in the first place. even come from in the first place. even come from in the first place. Earlier you you were talking about Earlier you you were talking about Earlier you you were talking about games and these these voluntary games and these these voluntary games and these these voluntary obstacles we put up in games so we can obstacles we put up in games so we can obstacles we put up in games so we can enjoy the process of overcoming them. enjoy the process of overcoming them. enjoy the process of overcoming them. And And And we We about how that works in games, but we We about how that works in games, but we We about how that works in games, but perhaps it doesn't apply to wider life. perhaps it doesn't apply to wider life. perhaps it doesn't apply to wider life. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But it could do. I think about the >> But it could do. I think about the >> But it could do. I think about the Jewish Sabbath. Jewish Sabbath. Jewish Sabbath. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right? >> Right? >> Right? And I think about And I think about And I think about what a beautiful restriction that they're putting on their 7-day week that they're putting on their 7-day week that then gives so much value, right? that then gives so much value, right? that then gives so much value, right? So, by on that seventh day between So, by on that seventh day between So, by on that seventh day between Friday Friday Friday sunsets and Saturday evening sunsets and Saturday evening sunsets and Saturday evening there are certain rules, you know, there are certain rules, you know, there are certain rules, you know, depending on how strictly, you know, you depending on how strictly, you know, you depending on how strictly, you know, you follow Judaism. Certain things that you follow Judaism. Certain things that you follow Judaism. Certain things that you can't do. You can't go in a car. You can't do. You can't go in a car. You can't do. You can't go in a car. You can't use a phone. You You know, can't use a phone. You You know, can't use a phone. You You know, whatever it might be. whatever it might be. whatever it might be. And so, the rule, the restriction And so, the rule, the restriction And so, the rule, the restriction for many families for many families for many families leads to real community bonding, a leads to real community bonding, a leads to real community bonding, a sacred space once a week where they sacred space once a week where they sacred space once a week where they connect and they cook together and they connect and they cook together and they connect and they cook together and they play games together, right? play games together, right? play games together, right? >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> But you need the kind of artificial >> But you need the kind of artificial >> But you need the kind of artificial restriction there to get the benefits, restriction there to get the benefits, restriction there to get the benefits, whereas whereas whereas when we don't have that when we don't have that when we don't have that we then we're free to do whatever we we then we're free to do whatever we we then we're free to do whatever we want 7 days a week, [clears throat] but want 7 days a week, [clears throat] but want 7 days a week, [clears throat] but that freedom, the problem is is that that freedom, the problem is is that that freedom, the problem is is that every day bleeds into another one. You every day bleeds into another one. You every day bleeds into another one. You know, so when I was a kid, probably the know, so when I was a kid, probably the know, so when I was a kid, probably the same as you, we're the same age same as you, we're the same age same as you, we're the same age I remember the shops were closed on I remember the shops were closed on I remember the shops were closed on Sundays. Sundays. Sundays. You couldn't shop on Sundays, right? You You couldn't shop on Sundays, right? You You couldn't shop on Sundays, right? You had to plan beforehand and Sundays were had to plan beforehand and Sundays were had to plan beforehand and Sundays were a family day and you would a family day and you would a family day and you would I don't know, hang out with the family I don't know, hang out with the family I don't know, hang out with the family and dad would be doing the ironing and and dad would be doing the ironing and and dad would be doing the ironing and you might watch Formula 1 races together you might watch Formula 1 races together you might watch Formula 1 races together in the afternoon or or whatever. in the afternoon or or whatever. in the afternoon or or whatever. Whereas today, in the capitalist culture Whereas today, in the capitalist culture Whereas today, in the capitalist culture that we live in that we live in that we live in Sunday's no different from Monday, Sunday's no different from Monday, Sunday's no different from Monday, right? You can shop on Monday, you can right? You can shop on Monday, you can right? You can shop on Monday, you can go to You can do what you want. You can go to You can do what you want. You can go to You can do what you want. You can email. You can do all those things, email. You can do all those things, email. You can do all those things, right? So right? So right? So there's something quite beautiful, I there's something quite beautiful, I there's something quite beautiful, I think, about games and these artificial think, about games and these artificial think, about games and these artificial restrictions that create the joy that we restrictions that create the joy that we restrictions that create the joy that we can apply to life. can apply to life. can apply to life. That was one thing I just wanted to That was one thing I just wanted to That was one thing I just wanted to comment on. comment on. comment on. And the other thing And the other thing And the other thing I really want to touch on if if we can, I really want to touch on if if we can, I really want to touch on if if we can, maybe we can't go into mechanical values maybe we can't go into mechanical values maybe we can't go into mechanical values in detail. in detail. in detail. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> But in that chapter on mechanical >> But in that chapter on mechanical >> But in that chapter on mechanical values, you basically say that the more values, you basically say that the more values, you basically say that the more explicit and mechanical we make our explicit and mechanical we make our explicit and mechanical we make our goals and values, goals and values, goals and values, the easier it will will be to the easier it will will be to the easier it will will be to coordinate. coordinate. coordinate. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. So, >> Right. So, >> Right. So, you know, it's a theme we've already you know, it's a theme we've already you know, it's a theme we've already touched on that these values and metrics touched on that these values and metrics touched on that these values and metrics are great at coordinating with other are great at coordinating with other are great at coordinating with other people and communicating what we're people and communicating what we're people and communicating what we're doing to people, but we lose nuance when doing to people, but we lose nuance when doing to people, but we lose nuance when we do it. And you say there are three we do it. And you say there are three we do it. And you say there are three types of mechanical values: principles, types of mechanical values: principles, types of mechanical values: principles, models, and algorithms. Let's forget models, and algorithms. Let's forget models, and algorithms. Let's forget models for the moment, but I really like models for the moment, but I really like models for the moment, but I really like this idea of comparing principles to this idea of comparing principles to this idea of comparing principles to algorithms. algorithms. algorithms. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I wonder if we could talk about it >> And I wonder if we could talk about it >> And I wonder if we could talk about it through the lens of cooking. through the lens of cooking. through the lens of cooking. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you know, you you basically talk >> And you know, you you basically talk >> And you know, you you basically talk about this idea that old-school about this idea that old-school about this idea that old-school cookbooks are made up of principles. cookbooks are made up of principles. cookbooks are made up of principles. New-school ones New-school ones New-school ones are more based on algorithms. I I I are more based on algorithms. I I I are more based on algorithms. I I I I think it's such a beautiful analogy, I think it's such a beautiful analogy, I think it's such a beautiful analogy, and I wonder if we could just talk about and I wonder if we could just talk about and I wonder if we could just talk about it. it. it. >> Yeah, let me let me go back and talk >> Yeah, let me let me go back and talk >> Yeah, let me let me go back and talk about what you just said at the top of about what you just said at the top of about what you just said at the top of that, and then I want to talk about that, and then I want to talk about that, and then I want to talk about mechanical values, cuz you said mechanical values, cuz you said mechanical values, cuz you said something really wonderful. I think something really wonderful. I think something really wonderful. I think about constraints, and I think games about constraints, and I think games about constraints, and I think games really teach us something incredible really teach us something incredible really teach us something incredible about constraints, and it's why I care about constraints, and it's why I care about constraints, and it's why I care about them so much. Um about them so much. Um about them so much. Um you know, you know, you know, uh when I was starting to write about uh when I was starting to write about uh when I was starting to write about games, there's a common There's a common games, there's a common There's a common games, there's a common There's a common pushback where a lot of people think pushback where a lot of people think pushback where a lot of people think like, "Oh, games are just fake play, like, "Oh, games are just fake play, like, "Oh, games are just fake play, right? Because real play is totally right? Because real play is totally right? Because real play is totally free. It's totally unconstrained. It's free. It's totally unconstrained. It's free. It's totally unconstrained. It's totally creative. totally creative. totally creative. Games just destroy that. They're like Games just destroy that. They're like Games just destroy that. They're like They They're They're prisons that They They're They're prisons that They They're They're prisons that pretend to be play." pretend to be play." pretend to be play." I don't think that's true. I think that I don't think that's true. I think that I don't think that's true. I think that like when you're totally unrestricted, like when you're totally unrestricted, like when you're totally unrestricted, I mean, there's a reason why a lot of I mean, there's a reason why a lot of I mean, there's a reason why a lot of people think obstructions are good in people think obstructions are good in people think obstructions are good in creativity, why forms are good in creativity, why forms are good in creativity, why forms are good in poetry. poetry. poetry. Uh and I was trying to understand this Uh and I was trying to understand this Uh and I was trying to understand this and the best explanation I got from a and the best explanation I got from a and the best explanation I got from a yoga teacher, she said that when you get yoga teacher, she said that when you get yoga teacher, she said that when you get let people be totally free, when you're let people be totally free, when you're let people be totally free, when you're not strict with your yoga poses, not strict with your yoga poses, not strict with your yoga poses, people just enter repeat their bodily people just enter repeat their bodily people just enter repeat their bodily habits. habits. habits. And the the strictness of yoga was a And the the strictness of yoga was a And the the strictness of yoga was a conduit to freedom cuz it forced you out conduit to freedom cuz it forced you out conduit to freedom cuz it forced you out of your habits and the script strictness of your habits and the script strictness of your habits and the script strictness put you into a new posture and then you put you into a new posture and then you put you into a new posture and then you could reintegrate that, right? So, I could reintegrate that, right? So, I could reintegrate that, right? So, I mean mean mean one of the one of the one of the one of my weirdest claims in my first one of my weirdest claims in my first one of my weirdest claims in my first book is that games are yoga for your book is that games are yoga for your book is that games are yoga for your soul soul soul because they force you into different because they force you into different because they force you into different postures of caring about things and postures of caring about things and postures of caring about things and different practical postures about the different practical postures about the different practical postures about the world. world. world. But they're freeing only But they're freeing only But they're freeing only if they're temporary. If you're not if they're temporary. If you're not if they're temporary. If you're not stuck like that. Yoga would not be stuck like that. Yoga would not be stuck like that. Yoga would not be freeing if you're in triangle pose freeing if you're in triangle pose freeing if you're in triangle pose forever and a metric is not freeing if forever and a metric is not freeing if forever and a metric is not freeing if you have to care that way forever. Games you have to care that way forever. Games you have to care that way forever. Games are freeing precisely because they're are freeing precisely because they're are freeing precisely because they're strict but temporary. And I the reason I strict but temporary. And I the reason I strict but temporary. And I the reason I think they're so interesting is that think they're so interesting is that think they're so interesting is that games are constraints used for the sake games are constraints used for the sake games are constraints used for the sake of freedom of freedom of freedom because we use them to move around, but because we use them to move around, but because we use them to move around, but because they're in a larger setting because they're in a larger setting because they're in a larger setting where we're not stuck in them, where where we're not stuck in them, where where we're not stuck in them, where they're temporary, then we can move past they're temporary, then we can move past they're temporary, then we can move past them. And that I think is the weird them. And that I think is the weird them. And that I think is the weird beauty of games. beauty of games. beauty of games. >> Okay. That's that was the first thing I >> Okay. That's that was the first thing I >> Okay. That's that was the first thing I want to say. Mechanical values. So, this want to say. Mechanical values. So, this want to say. Mechanical values. So, this is this is I mean I was so I will tell is this is I mean I was so I will tell is this is I mean I was so I will tell you I was stuck on this book. There was you I was stuck on this book. There was you I was stuck on this book. There was a big chunk of time where I just could a big chunk of time where I just could a big chunk of time where I just could not explain what I thought was the not explain what I thought was the not explain what I thought was the central feature that I was looking at in central feature that I was looking at in central feature that I was looking at in metrics. metrics. metrics. And then I read this book by Lorraine And then I read this book by Lorraine And then I read this book by Lorraine Daston, who's a historian of science and Daston, who's a historian of science and Daston, who's a historian of science and one of the greatest thinkers alive. Uh one of the greatest thinkers alive. Uh one of the greatest thinkers alive. Uh she has an earlier book she would you she has an earlier book she would you she has an earlier book she would you would love in which she talks about how would love in which she talks about how would love in which she talks about how the idea of objectivity changes over the idea of objectivity changes over the idea of objectivity changes over time and how it mechanizes over time. time and how it mechanizes over time. time and how it mechanizes over time. Her new book Rules is about Her new book Rules is about Her new book Rules is about different conceptions of rules. And she different conceptions of rules. And she different conceptions of rules. And she says there's this new conception that says there's this new conception that says there's this new conception that has come to become dominant in the has come to become dominant in the has come to become dominant in the culture, [clears throat] and that culture, [clears throat] and that culture, [clears throat] and that conception is of conception is of conception is of rules as hyper-mechanical and rules as hyper-mechanical and rules as hyper-mechanical and hyper-algorithmic. But she says, that's hyper-algorithmic. But she says, that's hyper-algorithmic. But she says, that's actually really recent. An older actually really recent. An older actually really recent. An older dominant conception of a rule is what dominant conception of a rule is what dominant conception of a rule is what she calls the rule as a principle. So, a she calls the rule as a principle. So, a she calls the rule as a principle. So, a principle is an abstract generalization principle is an abstract generalization principle is an abstract generalization that admits of exceptions, that admits of exceptions, that admits of exceptions, but you can't list all the exceptions. but you can't list all the exceptions. but you can't list all the exceptions. So, my favorite example is one I learned So, my favorite example is one I learned So, my favorite example is one I learned from creative writing workshop, show from creative writing workshop, show from creative writing workshop, show don't tell. Good general principle for don't tell. Good general principle for don't tell. Good general principle for writing, but off but people break it. writing, but off but people break it. writing, but off but people break it. Tolstoy broke it, you know, like all Tolstoy broke it, you know, like all Tolstoy broke it, you know, like all happy families are alike, every unhappy happy families are alike, every unhappy happy families are alike, every unhappy family is unhappy in their own way. family is unhappy in their own way. family is unhappy in their own way. That's telling, not showing. But what That's telling, not showing. But what That's telling, not showing. But what Daston says is the way that a principle Daston says is the way that a principle Daston says is the way that a principle works is when you understand the works is when you understand the works is when you understand the unstated heart of the idea, which lies unstated heart of the idea, which lies unstated heart of the idea, which lies behind the rule, behind the rule, behind the rule, you'll know when to break it. Yeah. And you'll know when to break it. Yeah. And you'll know when to break it. Yeah. And the court the court thought there was the court the court thought there was the court the court thought there was what a rule it what were how we what a rule it what were how we what a rule it what were how we Life is so complicated that no explicit Life is so complicated that no explicit Life is so complicated that no explicit rule will ever capture everything. You rule will ever capture everything. You rule will ever capture everything. You can only point in the general direction, can only point in the general direction, can only point in the general direction, and once we get on to the real idea that and once we get on to the real idea that and once we get on to the real idea that is unstatable but true, we know when to is unstatable but true, we know when to is unstatable but true, we know when to to break the rule, right? The rule the to break the rule, right? The rule the to break the rule, right? The rule the rule is a pointer and not the full rule is a pointer and not the full rule is a pointer and not the full thing. Um thing. Um thing. Um you know, cue the old you know, cue the old you know, cue the old uh thought when a finger is pointing to uh thought when a finger is pointing to uh thought when a finger is pointing to the moon, look at the moon, not the the moon, look at the moon, not the the moon, look at the moon, not the finger, right? The rule is the finger finger, right? The rule is the finger finger, right? The rule is the finger pointing to the deep thing behind it. pointing to the deep thing behind it. pointing to the deep thing behind it. So, uh Daston says, but there's a newer So, uh Daston says, but there's a newer So, uh Daston says, but there's a newer conception of rule, what she calls an conception of rule, what she calls an conception of rule, what she calls an algorithmic rule. And an algorithmic algorithmic rule. And an algorithmic algorithmic rule. And an algorithmic rule is a rule that's designed to be rule is a rule that's designed to be rule is a rule that's designed to be followed exactly as written, explicitly, followed exactly as written, explicitly, followed exactly as written, explicitly, with no exceptions, automatically. with no exceptions, automatically. with no exceptions, automatically. And then she says, I think the most And then she says, I think the most And then she says, I think the most interesting thing I've read in like 10 interesting thing I've read in like 10 interesting thing I've read in like 10 or 15 years. or 15 years. or 15 years. She says, people think that algorithmic She says, people think that algorithmic She says, people think that algorithmic rules arise with computing machines, but rules arise with computing machines, but rules arise with computing machines, but they actually arose about 100 years they actually arose about 100 years they actually arose about 100 years earlier earlier earlier in an attempt to cheapen labor by in an attempt to cheapen labor by in an attempt to cheapen labor by reducing large institutions' dependence reducing large institutions' dependence reducing large institutions' dependence on particular experts with particular on particular experts with particular on particular experts with particular long backgrounds and sensitivities long backgrounds and sensitivities long backgrounds and sensitivities and being able to replace them with and being able to replace them with and being able to replace them with anybody. So, one of the major examples anybody. So, one of the major examples anybody. So, one of the major examples of this for her, she says, of this for her, she says, of this for her, she says, um um um in old school cooking, if you look at in old school cooking, if you look at in old school cooking, if you look at old school cookbooks, old school cookbooks, old school cookbooks, they're actually they don't look like they're actually they don't look like they're actually they don't look like what we're used to. They say things what we're used to. They say things what we're used to. They say things like, like, like, "Add enough flour and water until it "Add enough flour and water until it "Add enough flour and water until it feel the dough feels nice and bubbly and feel the dough feels nice and bubbly and feel the dough feels nice and bubbly and then knead it till it's stretchy and then knead it till it's stretchy and then knead it till it's stretchy and then bake it until it makes a nice then bake it until it makes a nice then bake it until it makes a nice ringing sound when knocked." Right? And ringing sound when knocked." Right? And ringing sound when knocked." Right? And you you know what modern you you know what modern you you know what modern cookbooks are like. They say like, "Two cookbooks are like. They say like, "Two cookbooks are like. They say like, "Two cups of flour, one cup of water, cups of flour, one cup of water, cups of flour, one cup of water, bake for 450°." Hopefully it's clear bake for 450°." Hopefully it's clear bake for 450°." Hopefully it's clear that the first kind of that the first kind of that the first kind of recipe recipe recipe is a set of principles. It's a rough set is a set of principles. It's a rough set is a set of principles. It's a rough set of guidelines that point you in the of guidelines that point you in the of guidelines that point you in the direction and queue a kind of sensitive, direction and queue a kind of sensitive, direction and queue a kind of sensitive, responsive judgment. responsive judgment. responsive judgment. The new kind of recipe The new kind of recipe The new kind of recipe is a set of algorithms and it can be is a set of algorithms and it can be is a set of algorithms and it can be applied it's hyper accessible, but very applied it's hyper accessible, but very applied it's hyper accessible, but very inflexible and very insensitive because inflexible and very insensitive because inflexible and very insensitive because it's been written it's been written it's been written to be usable by everybody. And I think to be usable by everybody. And I think to be usable by everybody. And I think what Daston teaches us what Daston teaches us what Daston teaches us is that a lot of the landscape we're is that a lot of the landscape we're is that a lot of the landscape we're looking for looking for looking for has been made to make people has been made to make people has been made to make people replaceable. replaceable. replaceable. Right? The driving force is the desire Right? The driving force is the desire Right? The driving force is the desire for workers to be fungible. So, if for workers to be fungible. So, if for workers to be fungible. So, if McDonald's if if your if your restaurant McDonald's if if your if your restaurant McDonald's if if your if your restaurant has a cook that has a long cultivated has a cook that has a long cultivated has a cook that has a long cultivated sensibility and that cook wants to sensibility and that cook wants to sensibility and that cook wants to leave, leave, leave, it's really hard to replace them. If it's really hard to replace them. If it's really hard to replace them. If McDonald's has written a set of rules McDonald's has written a set of rules McDonald's has written a set of rules that are very precise and engineered the that are very precise and engineered the that are very precise and engineered the inputs such that those work, then they inputs such that those work, then they inputs such that those work, then they can fire anyone and replace them can fire anyone and replace them can fire anyone and replace them instantly. instantly. instantly. And one way to put it is that I think And one way to put it is that I think And one way to put it is that I think that metrics are algorithmic recipes for that metrics are algorithmic recipes for that metrics are algorithmic recipes for values. values. values. What they've done What they've done What they've done is change what we value away from is change what we value away from is change what we value away from something that requires sensitivity and something that requires sensitivity and something that requires sensitivity and context and replace it with something context and replace it with something context and replace it with something that anyone can track and then if we that anyone can track and then if we that anyone can track and then if we fire that person and replace them with fire that person and replace them with fire that person and replace them with another, the tracking will continue another, the tracking will continue another, the tracking will continue uninterrupted and unchanged. uninterrupted and unchanged. uninterrupted and unchanged. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love that comparison between old I love that comparison between old I love that comparison between old school cookbooks and new school school cookbooks and new school school cookbooks and new school cookbooks. And And as you say in the cookbooks. And And as you say in the cookbooks. And And as you say in the book, it's not as if the new school book, it's not as if the new school book, it's not as if the new school cookbook is wrong, you know? And cookbook is wrong, you know? And cookbook is wrong, you know? And actually can be very useful. actually can be very useful. actually can be very useful. A bit like your rock climbing analogy, A bit like your rock climbing analogy, A bit like your rock climbing analogy, right? To get you started, right? right? To get you started, right? right? To get you started, right? >> Exactly right. >> Exactly right. >> Exactly right. >> started, you learn how to cook from it, >> started, you learn how to cook from it, >> started, you learn how to cook from it, but then realize Well, when can you but then realize Well, when can you but then realize Well, when can you break these rules? break these rules? break these rules? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> You know, what happens when you're >> You know, what happens when you're >> You know, what happens when you're staying at an Airbnb with your mates and staying at an Airbnb with your mates and staying at an Airbnb with your mates and actually actually actually you know, all the ingredients that you you know, all the ingredients that you you know, all the ingredients that you use at home are not available. Or the use at home are not available. Or the use at home are not available. Or the oven is different, goes through a oven is different, goes through a oven is different, goes through a different type of heat. Can you adapt? different type of heat. Can you adapt? different type of heat. Can you adapt? Well, clearly a very good chef will be Well, clearly a very good chef will be Well, clearly a very good chef will be able to adapt. Someone who's able to adapt. Someone who's able to adapt. Someone who's rigid rigid rigid >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> to the rules is going to suddenly >> to the rules is going to suddenly >> to the rules is going to suddenly struggle. And why I want us to talk struggle. And why I want us to talk struggle. And why I want us to talk about this is because principles is what I think a lot about principles is what I think a lot about in health. I think where we go wrong in in health. I think where we go wrong in in health. I think where we go wrong in health health health or where some people go wrong is where or where some people go wrong is where or where some people go wrong is where we too rigidly stick to rules. Rules can we too rigidly stick to rules. Rules can we too rigidly stick to rules. Rules can be helpful. A dietary prescription by be helpful. A dietary prescription by be helpful. A dietary prescription by some expert can be useful to get you some expert can be useful to get you some expert can be useful to get you started. started. started. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> But at some point you got to then start >> But at some point you got to then start >> But at some point you got to then start asking yourself, is this the right asking yourself, is this the right asking yourself, is this the right approach for me? Does this fit with my approach for me? Does this fit with my approach for me? Does this fit with my cultural values? Can I eat in this way? cultural values? Can I eat in this way? cultural values? Can I eat in this way? Would I be happy eating this way for the Would I be happy eating this way for the Would I be happy eating this way for the next 10 years? Or whatever it might be. next 10 years? Or whatever it might be. next 10 years? Or whatever it might be. And And And I've always taught my patients I've always taught my patients I've always taught my patients principles as opposed to principles as opposed to principles as opposed to >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> harsh rules. Because once you understand >> harsh rules. Because once you understand >> harsh rules. Because once you understand the principle, the principle, the principle, you start to gain a degree of you start to gain a degree of you start to gain a degree of self-mastery. You know, self-mastery. You know, self-mastery. You know, oh, you know, I can tweak this here. You oh, you know, I can tweak this here. You oh, you know, I can tweak this here. You know, it And I think for me, I think know, it And I think for me, I think know, it And I think for me, I think that's the ideal state to get to is when that's the ideal state to get to is when that's the ideal state to get to is when you understand the core principles, you understand the core principles, you understand the core principles, but know how to tweak them for yourself but know how to tweak them for yourself but know how to tweak them for yourself and and and you know, that the stuff with algorithms you know, that the stuff with algorithms you know, that the stuff with algorithms as as a sort of modern mechanical value as as a sort of modern mechanical value as as a sort of modern mechanical value is something I think about a lot, you is something I think about a lot, you is something I think about a lot, you know, we when you know, know, we when you know, know, we when you know, it is very common these days it is very common these days it is very common these days for podcasters for podcasters for podcasters to choose guests according to to choose guests according to to choose guests according to algorithms. algorithms. algorithms. Right? YouTube is the is the prime Right? YouTube is the is the prime Right? YouTube is the is the prime platform for this where there are platform for this where there are platform for this where there are certain guests that will certain guests that will certain guests that will perform on the YouTube algorithm. perform on the YouTube algorithm. perform on the YouTube algorithm. And a lot of podcast hosts know which And a lot of podcast hosts know which And a lot of podcast hosts know which those guests are, so will choose them. those guests are, so will choose them. those guests are, so will choose them. And I'm not judging anyone for doing And I'm not judging anyone for doing And I'm not judging anyone for doing that, just to be clear. that, just to be clear. that, just to be clear. But as your subtitle is, right? How to But as your subtitle is, right? How to But as your subtitle is, right? How to stop playing someone else's game, right? stop playing someone else's game, right? stop playing someone else's game, right? The question you got to ask yourself is, The question you got to ask yourself is, The question you got to ask yourself is, is that the game you want to play? is that the game you want to play? is that the game you want to play? Right? Because you could, for example, Right? Because you could, for example, Right? Because you could, for example, keep choosing guests that are going to keep choosing guests that are going to keep choosing guests that are going to blow up on the algorithm, blow up on the algorithm, blow up on the algorithm, so you win at the algorithmic game. You so you win at the algorithmic game. You so you win at the algorithmic game. You win at the game of views, win at the game of views, win at the game of views, but you may end up with a show that you but you may end up with a show that you but you may end up with a show that you hate. hate. hate. Right? And I I actually know full well Right? And I I actually know full well Right? And I I actually know full well that that is happening to certain that that is happening to certain that that is happening to certain people. people. people. Whereas Whereas Whereas I hope, by and large, what I try and do I hope, by and large, what I try and do I hope, by and large, what I try and do on this show on this show on this show is I've got I've I've literally have one is I've got I've I've literally have one is I've got I've I've literally have one metric that determines metric that determines metric that determines if I invite a guest onto the show or if I invite a guest onto the show or if I invite a guest onto the show or not, and it's simply not, and it's simply not, and it's simply am I really interested in this human am I really interested in this human am I really interested in this human being and do I want to spend two hours being and do I want to spend two hours being and do I want to spend two hours with them trying to explore their ideas? with them trying to explore their ideas? with them trying to explore their ideas? If the answer is yes, If the answer is yes, If the answer is yes, irrespective of an algorithm, irrespective of an algorithm, irrespective of an algorithm, I will invite them onto the show. If the I will invite them onto the show. If the I will invite them onto the show. If the answer is no, doesn't matter how good answer is no, doesn't matter how good answer is no, doesn't matter how good the press release is, how good I think the press release is, how good I think the press release is, how good I think the topic might be. I'm like, you know, the topic might be. I'm like, you know, the topic might be. I'm like, you know, I just don't think I'm going to vibe I just don't think I'm going to vibe I just don't think I'm going to vibe with this person. I'm not I'm just not with this person. I'm not I'm just not with this person. I'm not I'm just not sure I'm I'm interested. So, it's it's sure I'm I'm interested. So, it's it's sure I'm I'm interested. So, it's it's curiosity that determines the guest curiosity that determines the guest curiosity that determines the guest choice. And I think long-term choice. And I think long-term choice. And I think long-term for me personally, I can't speak for for me personally, I can't speak for for me personally, I can't speak for anyone else. anyone else. anyone else. You know, 8 years on from starting this You know, 8 years on from starting this You know, 8 years on from starting this show, I still love it more than ever. show, I still love it more than ever. show, I still love it more than ever. I I feel like the luckiest guy on the I I feel like the luckiest guy on the I I feel like the luckiest guy on the planet that I get to planet that I get to planet that I get to invite people on and because the show invite people on and because the show invite people on and because the show has such a big reach, they come to my has such a big reach, they come to my has such a big reach, they come to my studio, sit with me, and we get to studio, sit with me, and we get to studio, sit with me, and we get to explore ideas together. explore ideas together. explore ideas together. I'm like, how lucky am I that I get to I'm like, how lucky am I that I get to I'm like, how lucky am I that I get to do this job? But I believe that would do this job? But I believe that would do this job? But I believe that would change if I started to choose guests change if I started to choose guests change if I started to choose guests based on algorithms. based on algorithms. based on algorithms. And I I really think that speaks to And I I really think that speaks to And I I really think that speaks to really one of the main themes in the really one of the main themes in the really one of the main themes in the score, which is, as you say, how to stop score, which is, as you say, how to stop score, which is, as you say, how to stop playing someone else's game. So, the playing someone else's game. So, the playing someone else's game. So, the converse is converse is converse is how do you start playing your own game? how do you start playing your own game? how do you start playing your own game? And I kind of feel that's what the book And I kind of feel that's what the book And I kind of feel that's what the book is really teaching us through, you know, is really teaching us through, you know, is really teaching us through, you know, you you explore it through a variety of you you explore it through a variety of you you explore it through a variety of different ways, but ultimately, I think different ways, but ultimately, I think different ways, but ultimately, I think the book is the book is the book is a philosophy on a philosophy on a philosophy on how we can live an intentional life how we can live an intentional life how we can live an intentional life that we've designed for ourself. that we've designed for ourself. that we've designed for ourself. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> 100%. For someone who's listening to this For someone who's listening to this conversation right now conversation right now conversation right now and who thinks games are a waste of and who thinks games are a waste of and who thinks games are a waste of time, time, time, >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] >> what would you say to them? >> What is your time for? >> What is your time for? Right? Like if if a game a game a game has taken you to a point, has taken you to a point, has taken you to a point, I mean, I think not every game is for every person, not every game is for every person, but the magic of games is not just that but the magic of games is not just that but the magic of games is not just that they are these design processes, they are these design processes, they are these design processes, but that we get to dance and move but that we get to dance and move but that we get to dance and move between them. That we get to find, like between them. That we get to find, like between them. That we get to find, like you said, you said, you said, snooker is for you, snooker is for you, snooker is for you, rock climbing and fly fishing and weird rock climbing and fly fishing and weird rock climbing and fly fishing and weird role playing games are for me. role playing games are for me. role playing games are for me. And games And games And games have this have this have this magical opportunity. magical opportunity. magical opportunity. Games give us this magical opportunity Games give us this magical opportunity Games give us this magical opportunity for us to explore different facets of ourselves as explore different facets of ourselves as acting, thinking, feeling, sensing acting, thinking, feeling, sensing acting, thinking, feeling, sensing beings, and then find the one that is beings, and then find the one that is beings, and then find the one that is the most the most the most beautiful for us. beautiful for us. beautiful for us. And I don't And I don't And I don't know a better description of what it is know a better description of what it is know a better description of what it is to be alive. to be alive. to be alive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> What is your time really for? >> What is your time really for? >> What is your time really for? I think that's a great question to I think that's a great question to I think that's a great question to finish finish finish this conversation on. this conversation on. this conversation on. See, I think the new book, The Score: See, I think the new book, The Score: See, I think the new book, The Score: How to Stop Playing Someone Else's Game, How to Stop Playing Someone Else's Game, How to Stop Playing Someone Else's Game, is is is a literal masterpiece. It is so good. a literal masterpiece. It is so good. a literal masterpiece. It is so good. I hope everyone goes out and gets a I hope everyone goes out and gets a I hope everyone goes out and gets a copy. copy. copy. I think once you read it, you will start I think once you read it, you will start I think once you read it, you will start to think about your life in a very to think about your life in a very to think about your life in a very different way. And ultimately, as I say different way. And ultimately, as I say different way. And ultimately, as I say it, it's going to help you live it, it's going to help you live it, it's going to help you live a more intentional life. Thank you for a more intentional life. Thank you for a more intentional life. Thank you for taking the time to write it. taking the time to write it. taking the time to write it. Thank you for coming out to the studio, Thank you for coming out to the studio, Thank you for coming out to the studio, and uh I hope to see you again soon. If and uh I hope to see you again soon. If and uh I hope to see you again soon. If you enjoyed that conversation, then I you enjoyed that conversation, then I you enjoyed that conversation, then I think you are really going to enjoy this think you are really going to enjoy this think you are really going to enjoy this one. one. one. >> If I were to choose to live my life over >> If I were to choose to live my life over >> If I were to choose to live my life over again, again, again, >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> I would live it in this way. >> I would live it in this way. >> I would live it in this way. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I wish I hadn't worked so hard. When >> I wish I hadn't worked so hard. When >> I wish I hadn't worked so hard. When you're driven to work too hard, you you're driven to work too hard, you you're driven to work too hard, you actually ignore what matters. And where actually ignore what matters. And where actually ignore what matters. And where does that come from? Again, that comes does that come from? Again, that comes does that come from? Again, that comes from childhood trauma. [music]