The Internet is Clueless About Relationships - Dr Max Butterfield

Dr. Max Butterfield, welcome to the Dr. Max Butterfield, welcome to the show. show. show. >> Chris, thank you for having me. Please >> Chris, thank you for having me. Please >> Chris, thank you for having me. Please call me Max. call me Max. call me Max. >> No, Dr. Max Butterfield, you rip. I >> No, Dr. Max Butterfield, you rip. I >> No, Dr. Max Butterfield, you rip. I absolutely love your content. I think absolutely love your content. I think absolutely love your content. I think you're so fantastic. you're so fantastic. you're so fantastic. >> Oh, I I really appreciate it. I I am >> Oh, I I really appreciate it. I I am >> Oh, I I really appreciate it. I I am shocked every day when somebody tells me shocked every day when somebody tells me shocked every day when somebody tells me that because I'm nobody, you know? I that because I'm nobody, you know? I that because I'm nobody, you know? I just have been telling people who I am just have been telling people who I am just have been telling people who I am every day for the last year, and it kind every day for the last year, and it kind every day for the last year, and it kind of started to take hold, I guess. of started to take hold, I guess. of started to take hold, I guess. >> Yeah. I mean, there's very few people >> Yeah. I mean, there's very few people >> Yeah. I mean, there's very few people doing evidence-based relationship doing evidence-based relationship doing evidence-based relationship advice, uh, especially on in short form advice, uh, especially on in short form advice, uh, especially on in short form on social media. So, it it it doesn't on social media. So, it it it doesn't on social media. So, it it it doesn't surprise me that it's going well. PhD in surprise me that it's going well. PhD in surprise me that it's going well. PhD in experimental psychology, masters in experimental psychology, masters in experimental psychology, masters in clinical psych, masters in experimental clinical psych, masters in experimental clinical psych, masters in experimental psych, bachelor's in psych, and some psych, bachelor's in psych, and some psych, bachelor's in psych, and some additional work in religion, law, and additional work in religion, law, and additional work in religion, law, and languages. languages. languages. >> A couple things I really, you know, in >> A couple things I really, you know, in >> A couple things I really, you know, in in first grade, I decided I like school in first grade, I decided I like school in first grade, I decided I like school and I was never going to leave. So, and I was never going to leave. So, and I was never going to leave. So, still here 30 years later. still here 30 years later. still here 30 years later. >> All right, I'm going to get you to I'm >> All right, I'm going to get you to I'm >> All right, I'm going to get you to I'm going to get you to react to something going to get you to react to something going to get you to react to something straight off the bat. Norwegian bath straight off the bat. Norwegian bath straight off the bat. Norwegian bath althlete Ster home leg grade. Have you althlete Ster home leg grade. Have you althlete Ster home leg grade. Have you seen this? seen this? seen this? >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Okay. So, this 28-year-old guy chose the >> Okay. So, this 28-year-old guy chose the >> Okay. So, this 28-year-old guy chose the Olympics as a place to shoot his shot Olympics as a place to shoot his shot Olympics as a place to shoot his shot with his ex after he won the bronze in with his ex after he won the bronze in with his ex after he won the bronze in the men's 20 kilometer batlon in a viral the men's 20 kilometer batlon in a viral the men's 20 kilometer batlon in a viral post a after his win. In the interview, post a after his win. In the interview, post a after his win. In the interview, this guy confessed to cheating on the this guy confessed to cheating on the this guy confessed to cheating on the love of his life, revealing that she love of his life, revealing that she love of his life, revealing that she dumped him after he came clean a week dumped him after he came clean a week dumped him after he came clean a week ago and said he was committing social ago and said he was committing social ago and said he was committing social suicide in the hopes of winning her suicide in the hopes of winning her suicide in the hopes of winning her back. Seems like his plan backfired back. Seems like his plan backfired back. Seems like his plan backfired since his ex, who has remained since his ex, who has remained since his ex, who has remained anonymous, reportedly told Norwegian anonymous, reportedly told Norwegian anonymous, reportedly told Norwegian tabloid VG that it's hard to forgive tabloid VG that it's hard to forgive tabloid VG that it's hard to forgive even after a declaration of love in even after a declaration of love in even after a declaration of love in front of the whole world. So for the front of the whole world. So for the front of the whole world. So for the people that haven't seen it, Dean will people that haven't seen it, Dean will people that haven't seen it, Dean will cut it in now. 6 months ago, I met the cut it in now. 6 months ago, I met the cut it in now. 6 months ago, I met the love of my life, the world's most love of my life, the world's most love of my life, the world's most beautiful, wonderful person in the beautiful, wonderful person in the beautiful, wonderful person in the world. And 3 months ago, I made the world. And 3 months ago, I made the world. And 3 months ago, I made the biggest mistake of my life and cheated biggest mistake of my life and cheated biggest mistake of my life and cheated on her. As you can see, that guy used on her. As you can see, that guy used on her. As you can see, that guy used probably the crowning moment of his probably the crowning moment of his probably the crowning moment of his entire career, maybe his entire life, entire career, maybe his entire life, entire career, maybe his entire life, right? You've right? You've right? You've >> from a child to do this thing. Batlons, >> from a child to do this thing. Batlons, >> from a child to do this thing. Batlons, the the the >> rifle shooting with the skiing thing. I >> rifle shooting with the skiing thing. I >> rifle shooting with the skiing thing. I think think think >> that's I believe so. Yeah. >> that's I believe so. Yeah. >> that's I believe so. Yeah. >> Um way more of an expert on >> Um way more of an expert on >> Um way more of an expert on relationships than on [ __ ] bialons. relationships than on [ __ ] bialons. relationships than on [ __ ] bialons. Um you chose that moment, the crowning Um you chose that moment, the crowning Um you chose that moment, the crowning moment as he gets to do the interview. moment as he gets to do the interview. moment as he gets to do the interview. Could have thanked his mom, could have Could have thanked his mom, could have Could have thanked his mom, could have thanked God, could have thanked all the thanked God, could have thanked all the thanked God, could have thanked all the hard work, used it as the opportunity to hard work, used it as the opportunity to hard work, used it as the opportunity to try and do it. try and do it. try and do it. dissect this from a science-based lens dissect this from a science-based lens dissect this from a science-based lens for me, please. What's going on? for me, please. What's going on? for me, please. What's going on? >> Yeah. Well, I mean, the first thing I >> Yeah. Well, I mean, the first thing I >> Yeah. Well, I mean, the first thing I want to know is, was this planned? You want to know is, was this planned? You want to know is, was this planned? You know, did he think this through? Cuz to know, did he think this through? Cuz to know, did he think this through? Cuz to me, that is very different if he's like, me, that is very different if he's like, me, that is very different if he's like, "Okay, I know what I'm going to do. I'm "Okay, I know what I'm going to do. I'm "Okay, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to try to get her back and he's going to try to get her back and he's going to try to get her back and he's rationally, you know, got some reasons rationally, you know, got some reasons rationally, you know, got some reasons or if this was just like, hey, I'm in or if this was just like, hey, I'm in or if this was just like, hey, I'm in front of the camera. I'm all excited. I front of the camera. I'm all excited. I front of the camera. I'm all excited. I don't know what to say. I don't know how don't know what to say. I don't know how don't know what to say. I don't know how to regulate myself. Let me just let this to regulate myself. Let me just let this to regulate myself. Let me just let this fly." I I think the results are going to fly." I I think the results are going to fly." I I think the results are going to be the same regardless, but the feedback be the same regardless, but the feedback be the same regardless, but the feedback I would have for him would be very I would have for him would be very I would have for him would be very different depending on whether he did different depending on whether he did different depending on whether he did this on on this on on this on on >> Give me both Give me both units. >> Give me both Give me both units. >> Give me both Give me both units. >> Well, I mean, so if he did this on the >> Well, I mean, so if he did this on the >> Well, I mean, so if he did this on the fly, I would, you know, going forward, I fly, I would, you know, going forward, I fly, I would, you know, going forward, I don't know how you walk this back, first don't know how you walk this back, first don't know how you walk this back, first of all. I mean, like you said, he shot of all. I mean, like you said, he shot of all. I mean, like you said, he shot his shot here in front of the whole his shot here in front of the whole his shot here in front of the whole world. This was his crowning world. This was his crowning world. This was his crowning achievement. achievement. achievement. >> He shot his shot after shooting many >> He shot his shot after shooting many >> He shot his shot after shooting many shots, actually. shots, actually. shots, actually. >> That's exactly what, you know, going >> That's exactly what, you know, going >> That's exactly what, you know, going through my head. It's like by athlete, through my head. It's like by athlete, through my head. It's like by athlete, like just stick to your 50 m or whatever like just stick to your 50 m or whatever like just stick to your 50 m or whatever it is. don't let's not shoot this kind it is. don't let's not shoot this kind it is. don't let's not shoot this kind of shot in this situation. Right? So of shot in this situation. Right? So of shot in this situation. Right? So that's and that's what I would tell him. that's and that's what I would tell him. that's and that's what I would tell him. I think in a lot of ways you've got to I think in a lot of ways you've got to I think in a lot of ways you've got to you got to use humor there to diffuse you got to use humor there to diffuse you got to use humor there to diffuse the situation with the individual the situation with the individual the situation with the individual because he he just blew up his life because he he just blew up his life because he he just blew up his life really because it's this is not just really because it's this is not just really because it's this is not just going to affect his relationship with going to affect his relationship with going to affect his relationship with this woman. Now every woman on the this woman. Now every woman on the this woman. Now every woman on the planet is like, "Oh, this guy's a planet is like, "Oh, this guy's a planet is like, "Oh, this guy's a cheater. Okay, cool." And that's not the cheater. Okay, cool." And that's not the cheater. Okay, cool." And that's not the message that I don't I don't think you message that I don't I don't think you message that I don't I don't think you want that out there. And and again this want that out there. And and again this want that out there. And and again this this is what I would tell him just this is what I would tell him just this is what I would tell him just straight off the cuff is like look man straight off the cuff is like look man straight off the cuff is like look man we've got two things to do is one is we've got two things to do is one is we've got two things to do is one is repair and the damage and then the repair and the damage and then the repair and the damage and then the second is what do we do for you to help second is what do we do for you to help second is what do we do for you to help you regulate and think through what you you regulate and think through what you you regulate and think through what you know what you're what you're going to do know what you're what you're going to do know what you're what you're going to do in the future. Now if he planned this in the future. Now if he planned this in the future. Now if he planned this out I would ask questions instead. And out I would ask questions instead. And out I would ask questions instead. And my first question would be like what my first question would be like what my first question would be like what were you thinking? What what what was were you thinking? What what what was were you thinking? What what what was going through your head here? cuz I going through your head here? cuz I going through your head here? cuz I don't know honestly. I I think there is don't know honestly. I I think there is don't know honestly. I I think there is this desire probably to tell her and this desire probably to tell her and this desire probably to tell her and tell the world that like no I'm I'm a tell the world that like no I'm I'm a tell the world that like no I'm I'm a good guy. I'm trying to do the right good guy. I'm trying to do the right good guy. I'm trying to do the right thing. And that would be my hope here is thing. And that would be my hope here is thing. And that would be my hope here is that ultimately he's trying to do the that ultimately he's trying to do the that ultimately he's trying to do the right thing and he he feels bad. And right thing and he he feels bad. And right thing and he he feels bad. And that kind of shame and guilt that you that kind of shame and guilt that you that kind of shame and guilt that you would feel after cheating is going to would feel after cheating is going to would feel after cheating is going to motivate people to great lengths to try motivate people to great lengths to try motivate people to great lengths to try to repair and restore. So, if we're to repair and restore. So, if we're to repair and restore. So, if we're thinking about is this guy a good guy, thinking about is this guy a good guy, thinking about is this guy a good guy, he might actually be a really good guy he might actually be a really good guy he might actually be a really good guy who made a mistake or he might be an who made a mistake or he might be an who made a mistake or he might be an idiot. And that and that's why I don't idiot. And that and that's why I don't idiot. And that and that's why I don't think I think we'd have to ask more think I think we'd have to ask more think I think we'd have to ask more questions and and find out. And I don't questions and and find out. And I don't questions and and find out. And I don't know the guy. And so, it's it's fun to know the guy. And so, it's it's fun to know the guy. And so, it's it's fun to think about him being an idiot, but at think about him being an idiot, but at think about him being an idiot, but at the same time, I feel so bad for him. the same time, I feel so bad for him. the same time, I feel so bad for him. Look, I I get it, but there is a bit of Look, I I get it, but there is a bit of Look, I I get it, but there is a bit of there's the beginning of a potentially there's the beginning of a potentially there's the beginning of a potentially [ __ ] romcom going on here. 100%. And I [ __ ] romcom going on here. 100%. And I [ __ ] romcom going on here. 100%. And I think 100% think 100% think 100% >> when we look at sort of the cliches in >> when we look at sort of the cliches in >> when we look at sort of the cliches in romance, especially romance films and romance, especially romance films and romance, especially romance films and stuff where there's a a clumsy stuff where there's a a clumsy stuff where there's a a clumsy protagonist or a guy on the side and all protagonist or a guy on the side and all protagonist or a guy on the side and all the rest of it, it's strange how uh with the rest of it, it's strange how uh with the rest of it, it's strange how uh with the right lighting and a slightly better the right lighting and a slightly better the right lighting and a slightly better script, this could be the beginning, you script, this could be the beginning, you script, this could be the beginning, you know, the crowning achievement of this know, the crowning achievement of this know, the crowning achievement of this guy's life and he sort of lays down this guy's life and he sort of lays down this guy's life and he sort of lays down this this accomplishment at the feet of this this accomplishment at the feet of this this accomplishment at the feet of this woman. I think one of the things that woman. I think one of the things that woman. I think one of the things that most people get skeptical around is if most people get skeptical around is if most people get skeptical around is if if he'd used that opportunity to win her if he'd used that opportunity to win her if he'd used that opportunity to win her back after he'd broken up with her and back after he'd broken up with her and back after he'd broken up with her and said, "I realized I made a mistake." said, "I realized I made a mistake." said, "I realized I made a mistake." that feels different to that feels different to that feels different to the this sort of rumbling of his uh lack the this sort of rumbling of his uh lack the this sort of rumbling of his uh lack of virtue, this sort of low credibility of virtue, this sort of low credibility of virtue, this sort of low credibility man potentially who is sort of using man potentially who is sort of using man potentially who is sort of using >> I I I did see one person say that it was >> I I I did see one person say that it was >> I I I did see one person say that it was emotional manipulation. I think if emotional manipulation. I think if emotional manipulation. I think if anybody is being emotionally anybody is being emotionally anybody is being emotionally manipulated, it's him by himself. I manipulated, it's him by himself. I manipulated, it's him by himself. I think that he is doing he may be is it think that he is doing he may be is it think that he is doing he may be is it emotional manipulation or is it kind of emotional manipulation or is it kind of emotional manipulation or is it kind of just just just >> holy [ __ ] I [ __ ] up and and maybe I'm >> holy [ __ ] I [ __ ] up and and maybe I'm >> holy [ __ ] I [ __ ] up and and maybe I'm a bad guy or maybe I'm not a bad guy but a bad guy or maybe I'm not a bad guy but a bad guy or maybe I'm not a bad guy but I'm just like I I clambering clamoring I'm just like I I clambering clamoring I'm just like I I clambering clamoring to get back into connection with this to get back into connection with this to get back into connection with this person. I'm so disregulated. I just need person. I'm so disregulated. I just need person. I'm so disregulated. I just need something and if she sees me basically something and if she sees me basically something and if she sees me basically dedicating the greatest moment of my dedicating the greatest moment of my dedicating the greatest moment of my life to her. That being said he was in a life to her. That being said he was in a life to her. That being said he was in a relationship for 6 months. He cheated 3 relationship for 6 months. He cheated 3 relationship for 6 months. He cheated 3 months in and told her a week ago. Um I months in and told her a week ago. Um I months in and told her a week ago. Um I I I look, if you're going to be an I I look, if you're going to be an I I look, if you're going to be an Olympic athlete, [ __ ] keep it in your Olympic athlete, [ __ ] keep it in your Olympic athlete, [ __ ] keep it in your pants for 6 months, dude. You've worked pants for 6 months, dude. You've worked pants for 6 months, dude. You've worked toward this for a long at least four toward this for a long at least four toward this for a long at least four years. years. years. >> Holy [ __ ] >> Holy [ __ ] >> Holy [ __ ] >> Well, and not to mention I I think >> Well, and not to mention I I think >> Well, and not to mention I I think you're right on point there in terms of you're right on point there in terms of you're right on point there in terms of he's probably disregulated. He's he's probably disregulated. He's he's probably disregulated. He's probably trying anything and not in his probably trying anything and not in his probably trying anything and not in his maybe right mind in that way. And that's maybe right mind in that way. And that's maybe right mind in that way. And that's what happens is often when a what happens is often when a what happens is often when a relationship fails, people they they'll relationship fails, people they they'll relationship fails, people they they'll do anything and they'll try anything. do anything and they'll try anything. do anything and they'll try anything. It's like they're allocating their It's like they're allocating their It's like they're allocating their effort to the wrong things. So this is effort to the wrong things. So this is effort to the wrong things. So this is not a situation where you want to try not a situation where you want to try not a situation where you want to try harder. This is a situation where you harder. This is a situation where you harder. This is a situation where you want to try better. And for him here, want to try better. And for him here, want to try better. And for him here, rather than being like, you know, on rather than being like, you know, on rather than being like, you know, on national international television, hey, national international television, hey, national international television, hey, I cheated. Hey, I I messed up my I cheated. Hey, I I messed up my I cheated. Hey, I I messed up my relationship and I just want to say relationship and I just want to say relationship and I just want to say sorry to Melinda or who whatever her sorry to Melinda or who whatever her sorry to Melinda or who whatever her name is, you know, and that kind of name is, you know, and that kind of name is, you know, and that kind of reallocation is essential because it's reallocation is essential because it's reallocation is essential because it's not trying harder is not going to it's not trying harder is not going to it's not trying harder is not going to it's not going to do this. Trying harder, in not going to do this. Trying harder, in not going to do this. Trying harder, in fact, often chases people away. That's fact, often chases people away. That's fact, often chases people away. That's an interesting one. Talk to me about an interesting one. Talk to me about an interesting one. Talk to me about some of the ways that the romantic mind some of the ways that the romantic mind some of the ways that the romantic mind tells people to try and fix breakups tells people to try and fix breakups tells people to try and fix breakups that the um sort of status driven that the um sort of status driven that the um sort of status driven slightly more rational mind is got a bit slightly more rational mind is got a bit slightly more rational mind is got a bit of an aversion to. Yeah. You know, I I of an aversion to. Yeah. You know, I I of an aversion to. Yeah. You know, I I think in many ways we have no idea what think in many ways we have no idea what think in many ways we have no idea what we're doing in human relation. Nobody we're doing in human relation. Nobody we're doing in human relation. Nobody does, you know, in human relationships does, you know, in human relationships does, you know, in human relationships because we are animals and we are very because we are animals and we are very because we are animals and we are very reactionary and it but it doesn't feel reactionary and it but it doesn't feel reactionary and it but it doesn't feel like it because we have this higher like it because we have this higher like it because we have this higher order cognition that makes a lot of order cognition that makes a lot of order cognition that makes a lot of sense and it tries to convince us that sense and it tries to convince us that sense and it tries to convince us that no, I'm doing this for a very specific no, I'm doing this for a very specific no, I'm doing this for a very specific reason. And so as a result, people reason. And so as a result, people reason. And so as a result, people rationalize what they're doing at a rationalize what they're doing at a rationalize what they're doing at a level that is always going to feel like level that is always going to feel like level that is always going to feel like it makes sense from the inside and from it makes sense from the inside and from it makes sense from the inside and from the outside. the outside. the outside. very different. very different. very different. And so let me give let me give let me And so let me give let me give let me And so let me give let me give let me give you an example. There's this give you an example. There's this give you an example. There's this concept out there that nobody's talking concept out there that nobody's talking concept out there that nobody's talking about in terms of relationships, but about in terms of relationships, but about in terms of relationships, but learning theorists know it really well. learning theorists know it really well. learning theorists know it really well. And it's called approach avoidance. And And it's called approach avoidance. And And it's called approach avoidance. And it's not the kind of avoidance that you it's not the kind of avoidance that you it's not the kind of avoidance that you would talk about when we're talking would talk about when we're talking would talk about when we're talking about relationships. Like this person about relationships. Like this person about relationships. Like this person doesn't want a relationship with me, doesn't want a relationship with me, doesn't want a relationship with me, therefore they're avoidant. This is all therefore they're avoidant. This is all therefore they're avoidant. This is all this is to say is that sometimes scary this is to say is that sometimes scary this is to say is that sometimes scary things are also desirable and sometimes things are also desirable and sometimes things are also desirable and sometimes desirable things are also scary. So, in desirable things are also scary. So, in desirable things are also scary. So, in other words, I want to pursue this other words, I want to pursue this other words, I want to pursue this relationship, but I know I might get relationship, but I know I might get relationship, but I know I might get hurt. And what that causes me to do is hurt. And what that causes me to do is hurt. And what that causes me to do is take some steps forward and then take take some steps forward and then take take some steps forward and then take some steps backward. And same with a some steps backward. And same with a some steps backward. And same with a breakup. This bad thing has happened and breakup. This bad thing has happened and breakup. This bad thing has happened and you might have to deal with some hard you might have to deal with some hard you might have to deal with some hard truths to get this person back or to fix truths to get this person back or to fix truths to get this person back or to fix what's going on in yourself to not be a what's going on in yourself to not be a what's going on in yourself to not be a cheater anymore or whatever. And that's cheater anymore or whatever. And that's cheater anymore or whatever. And that's hard and that's scary. And so, you take hard and that's scary. And so, you take hard and that's scary. And so, you take a couple of steps forward and a couple a couple of steps forward and a couple a couple of steps forward and a couple of steps back. M of steps back. M of steps back. M >> and this also applies when we're trying >> and this also applies when we're trying >> and this also applies when we're trying to get somebody back. So suppose you to get somebody back. So suppose you to get somebody back. So suppose you broke up with somebody and you know broke up with somebody and you know broke up with somebody and you know you'll do anything to get them back. you'll do anything to get them back. you'll do anything to get them back. That is a slow process and people think That is a slow process and people think That is a slow process and people think that grand gestures are the way to go. that grand gestures are the way to go. that grand gestures are the way to go. They're not grand gestures. Like suppose They're not grand gestures. Like suppose They're not grand gestures. Like suppose you had a scared cat under a car and you you had a scared cat under a car and you you had a scared cat under a car and you know it's been living in your know it's been living in your know it's been living in your neighborhood for a long time. It's neighborhood for a long time. It's neighborhood for a long time. It's getting hungry. it's not doing well and getting hungry. it's not doing well and getting hungry. it's not doing well and you want to coax it out from under the you want to coax it out from under the you want to coax it out from under the car and you decide you're going to dive car and you decide you're going to dive car and you decide you're going to dive under the car and grab it by the tail under the car and grab it by the tail under the car and grab it by the tail and pull it out. You're never going to and pull it out. You're never going to and pull it out. You're never going to see that cat again if you miss the tail. see that cat again if you miss the tail. see that cat again if you miss the tail. And that's often what we do with And that's often what we do with And that's often what we do with breakups. That's often what we do when breakups. That's often what we do when breakups. That's often what we do when we really like people is we dive under we really like people is we dive under we really like people is we dive under that car and we we make this grand that car and we we make this grand that car and we we make this grand gesture, this big grab. But really what gesture, this big grab. But really what gesture, this big grab. But really what you need to do is very slowly approach you need to do is very slowly approach you need to do is very slowly approach that car. Maybe a days for days you do that car. Maybe a days for days you do that car. Maybe a days for days you do this and you you know offer that piece this and you you know offer that piece this and you you know offer that piece of food or you put out that water you of food or you put out that water you of food or you put out that water you show that you're a safe person. show that you're a safe person. show that you're a safe person. >> That's an investment and that takes a >> That's an investment and that takes a >> That's an investment and that takes a lot of time and it requires delayed lot of time and it requires delayed lot of time and it requires delayed gratification. We don't have a lot of gratification. We don't have a lot of gratification. We don't have a lot of ability for delayed gratification in ability for delayed gratification in ability for delayed gratification in adult society. Unfortunately, adult society. Unfortunately, adult society. Unfortunately, >> we certainly don't. If we are out of >> we certainly don't. If we are out of >> we certainly don't. If we are out of regulation and scared and anxious and we regulation and scared and anxious and we regulation and scared and anxious and we know that know that know that >> the attachment wound that we're >> the attachment wound that we're >> the attachment wound that we're currently trying to fix, the exact shape currently trying to fix, the exact shape currently trying to fix, the exact shape and size of it is the same shape and and size of it is the same shape and and size of it is the same shape and size that that person is there. And if size that that person is there. And if size that that person is there. And if only I could get them and slot them in, only I could get them and slot them in, only I could get them and slot them in, all of my pain would stop. And the all of my pain would stop. And the all of my pain would stop. And the quicker that I can do that, quicker that I can do that, quicker that I can do that, >> right, >> right, >> right, >> the more quickly I'm going to get back >> the more quickly I'm going to get back >> the more quickly I'm going to get back into regulation. So therefore, the into regulation. So therefore, the into regulation. So therefore, the grander the gesture, they will see how grander the gesture, they will see how grander the gesture, they will see how important and impressive and how much I important and impressive and how much I important and impressive and how much I care about them. I just got the bronze care about them. I just got the bronze care about them. I just got the bronze medal in the batlon and I'm going to do medal in the batlon and I'm going to do medal in the batlon and I'm going to do it and that the the sky's gonna and then it and that the the sky's gonna and then it and that the the sky's gonna and then my dregulation is going to be fixed. my dregulation is going to be fixed. my dregulation is going to be fixed. She's going to see how grand of a She's going to see how grand of a She's going to see how grand of a gesture this is. It is it gesture this is. It is it gesture this is. It is it >> on his >> on his >> on his to kind of defend a guy that's cheated to kind of defend a guy that's cheated to kind of defend a guy that's cheated as as as >> poorly as I can. Um, >> poorly as I can. Um, >> poorly as I can. Um, the sort of grand gesture thing, first the sort of grand gesture thing, first the sort of grand gesture thing, first off, does sound romantic. off, does sound romantic. off, does sound romantic. And secondly, I think it's it's coming And secondly, I think it's it's coming And secondly, I think it's it's coming from a good place. At least the grand from a good place. At least the grand from a good place. At least the grand gesture thing, not the [ __ ] I'm a gesture thing, not the [ __ ] I'm a gesture thing, not the [ __ ] I'm a cheetah thing. The grand gesture thing cheetah thing. The grand gesture thing cheetah thing. The grand gesture thing is coming from a good place, which is I is coming from a good place, which is I is coming from a good place, which is I want to just try my best to show you how want to just try my best to show you how want to just try my best to show you how much I care. And what is being missed is much I care. And what is being missed is much I care. And what is being missed is unfortunately a dynamic that exists in unfortunately a dynamic that exists in unfortunately a dynamic that exists in pretty much all humans, especially pretty much all humans, especially pretty much all humans, especially humans that have just been slighted or humans that have just been slighted or humans that have just been slighted or someone that's not feeling particularly someone that's not feeling particularly someone that's not feeling particularly receptive to whatever it is that you're receptive to whatever it is that you're receptive to whatever it is that you're going to try and do to them. They're a going to try and do to them. They're a going to try and do to them. They're a kind of a bit of a tough standup comedy kind of a bit of a tough standup comedy kind of a bit of a tough standup comedy audience that are sort of sitting back audience that are sort of sitting back audience that are sort of sitting back like, "Go on, make me laugh." And you like, "Go on, make me laugh." And you like, "Go on, make me laugh." And you you the more cloying that you are, the you the more cloying that you are, the you the more cloying that you are, the more pliable that you appear, the more more pliable that you appear, the more more pliable that you appear, the more disregulated you are. like, "Hey, the disregulated you are. like, "Hey, the disregulated you are. like, "Hey, the situation we just went through was one situation we just went through was one situation we just went through was one that was highly unsafe for me, right? that was highly unsafe for me, right? that was highly unsafe for me, right? You did a thing that made me unsafe. You You did a thing that made me unsafe. You You did a thing that made me unsafe. You broke up with me or you cheated on me or broke up with me or you cheated on me or broke up with me or you cheated on me or you did some you mistreated me or you you did some you mistreated me or you you did some you mistreated me or you did something and now you're steaming in did something and now you're steaming in did something and now you're steaming in with what to you feels like a grand with what to you feels like a grand with what to you feels like a grand romantic gesture, but to me just feels romantic gesture, but to me just feels romantic gesture, but to me just feels like more dysregulation. It's just like more dysregulation. It's just like more dysregulation. It's just you're spewing your unsafety at me. So, you're spewing your unsafety at me. So, you're spewing your unsafety at me. So, it's important for the person, the it's important for the person, the it's important for the person, the protagonist person that's trying to do protagonist person that's trying to do protagonist person that's trying to do the winning back, at least as far as I the winning back, at least as far as I the winning back, at least as far as I can see, to [ __ ] pump the brakes can see, to [ __ ] pump the brakes can see, to [ __ ] pump the brakes >> to be like, "Okay, a text that says, >> to be like, "Okay, a text that says, >> to be like, "Okay, a text that says, "I've been thinking a lot. I'd love I'd "I've been thinking a lot. I'd love I'd "I've been thinking a lot. I'd love I'd love to speak if if you have if you'd love to speak if if you have if you'd love to speak if if you have if you'd care to." Yeah. Oh, it And it's so care to." Yeah. Oh, it And it's so care to." Yeah. Oh, it And it's so important to to just be chill sometimes important to to just be chill sometimes important to to just be chill sometimes and even if you're not feeling that way and even if you're not feeling that way and even if you're not feeling that way on the inside to to project that kind of on the inside to to project that kind of on the inside to to project that kind of confidence, but also confidence, but also confidence, but also >> fake it until you regulate it. >> fake it until you regulate it. >> fake it until you regulate it. >> Oh. Oh my gosh. Yes. >> Oh. Oh my gosh. Yes. >> Oh. Oh my gosh. Yes. >> Yes. And and it's like, >> Yes. And and it's like, >> Yes. And and it's like, >> "Hey, do you want to grab coffee? Been >> "Hey, do you want to grab coffee? Been >> "Hey, do you want to grab coffee? Been thinking about you." So simple. You thinking about you." So simple. You thinking about you." So simple. You know, you give people that advice and know, you give people that advice and know, you give people that advice and they're like, "I don't know why I didn't they're like, "I don't know why I didn't they're like, "I don't know why I didn't think about that." And that's because think about that." And that's because think about that." And that's because your mind is going so many different your mind is going so many different your mind is going so many different places. That is what dysregulation is. places. That is what dysregulation is. places. That is what dysregulation is. You're in this fight orflight mode. You're in this fight orflight mode. You're in this fight orflight mode. You're not I mean, imagine if you just You're not I mean, imagine if you just You're not I mean, imagine if you just had to go to a comedy show and make had to go to a comedy show and make had to go to a comedy show and make people laugh, but you're being chased by people laugh, but you're being chased by people laugh, but you're being chased by a bear. Okay? Like, best of luck to you. a bear. Okay? Like, best of luck to you. a bear. Okay? Like, best of luck to you. And that's how it feels when you're And that's how it feels when you're And that's how it feels when you're pursuing a romantic relationship and pursuing a romantic relationship and pursuing a romantic relationship and things aren't going well. You've got things aren't going well. You've got things aren't going well. You've got this fight orflight response. You're this fight orflight response. You're this fight orflight response. You're being chased by a bear and then you're being chased by a bear and then you're being chased by a bear and then you're trying to chase somebody at the same trying to chase somebody at the same trying to chase somebody at the same time. You're going to look like a time. You're going to look like a time. You're going to look like a maniac. And maniac. And maniac. And of course, it's not going to work. of course, it's not going to work. of course, it's not going to work. >> And so self-regulation is the very first >> And so self-regulation is the very first >> And so self-regulation is the very first primary primary primary endeavor that you need to undertake is endeavor that you need to undertake is endeavor that you need to undertake is figure out how to regulate your own figure out how to regulate your own figure out how to regulate your own emotions. And that's the nice part is emotions. And that's the nice part is emotions. And that's the nice part is these are skills and they're skills that these are skills and they're skills that these are skills and they're skills that can be taught. And unfortunately, you can be taught. And unfortunately, you can be taught. And unfortunately, you don't there's no class. Even in like don't there's no class. Even in like don't there's no class. Even in like second grade, there's no class. How do second grade, there's no class. How do second grade, there's no class. How do you calm down? But there probably should you calm down? But there probably should you calm down? But there probably should be. What would be your prescription to be. What would be your prescription to be. What would be your prescription to somebody who is going through somebody who is going through somebody who is going through emotionally turbulent relationship stuff emotionally turbulent relationship stuff emotionally turbulent relationship stuff and they're thinking, I really could do and they're thinking, I really could do and they're thinking, I really could do with regulating. This breakup is is with regulating. This breakup is is with regulating. This breakup is is turning me inside out. I can't stop turning me inside out. I can't stop turning me inside out. I can't stop thinking about them. Whatever. Whatever. thinking about them. Whatever. Whatever. thinking about them. Whatever. Whatever. Uh Uh Uh what does science say about how people what does science say about how people what does science say about how people should recover from a breakup? should recover from a breakup? should recover from a breakup? >> There's a couple of different approaches >> There's a couple of different approaches >> There's a couple of different approaches that people take and for me mine is that people take and for me mine is that people take and for me mine is distraction. I I think distraction is distraction. I I think distraction is distraction. I I think distraction is very important. Healthy distraction. So very important. Healthy distraction. So very important. Healthy distraction. So don't distract yourself with alcohol for don't distract yourself with alcohol for don't distract yourself with alcohol for example. Um example. Um example. Um one drink fine you know no big deal. But one drink fine you know no big deal. But one drink fine you know no big deal. But um healthy distraction is go to work um healthy distraction is go to work um healthy distraction is go to work pour yourself into it. Go to school pour pour yourself into it. Go to school pour pour yourself into it. Go to school pour yourself into it. Um, healthy yourself into it. Um, healthy yourself into it. Um, healthy distraction is hanging out with your distraction is hanging out with your distraction is hanging out with your friends, join a new wreck league, play friends, join a new wreck league, play friends, join a new wreck league, play kickball, whatever. I, you know, I don't kickball, whatever. I, you know, I don't kickball, whatever. I, you know, I don't care. But whatever you're interested in, care. But whatever you're interested in, care. But whatever you're interested in, if it's video games, that's fine. That if it's video games, that's fine. That if it's video games, that's fine. That is enough to kind of give you a chance is enough to kind of give you a chance is enough to kind of give you a chance to literally calm down. And you don't to literally calm down. And you don't to literally calm down. And you don't want to get lost in those things, but want to get lost in those things, but want to get lost in those things, but just having a couple of good nights just having a couple of good nights just having a couple of good nights where you sleep is really important. And where you sleep is really important. And where you sleep is really important. And so if you can tire yourself out by so if you can tire yourself out by so if you can tire yourself out by lifting heavy, by running long, well, lifting heavy, by running long, well, lifting heavy, by running long, well, you know, whatever it is, playing you know, whatever it is, playing you know, whatever it is, playing soccer, and so you sleep as a result, soccer, and so you sleep as a result, soccer, and so you sleep as a result, your body's just going to start taking your body's just going to start taking your body's just going to start taking care of itself in ways that it just was care of itself in ways that it just was care of itself in ways that it just was unable to before. Yeah. Another unable to before. Yeah. Another unable to before. Yeah. Another interesting thing that I learned is interesting thing that I learned is interesting thing that I learned is people's sense of guilt is almost always people's sense of guilt is almost always people's sense of guilt is almost always directly correlated with the likelihood directly correlated with the likelihood directly correlated with the likelihood that they're going to be caught. So, that they're going to be caught. So, that they're going to be caught. So, this is an evolutionary theory, and it this is an evolutionary theory, and it this is an evolutionary theory, and it makes complete sense that if somebody's makes complete sense that if somebody's makes complete sense that if somebody's ever done something, uh they uh were ever done something, uh they uh were ever done something, uh they uh were driving down a road and a rapper came driving down a road and a rapper came driving down a road and a rapper came out of the car and there was super out of the car and there was super out of the car and there was super strong wind and it blew away and you're strong wind and it blew away and you're strong wind and it blew away and you're like, I'm never going to find. No one's like, I'm never going to find. No one's like, I'm never going to find. No one's ever going to know. There was it was in ever going to know. There was it was in ever going to know. There was it was in the middle of the night. Uh or you do it the middle of the night. Uh or you do it the middle of the night. Uh or you do it in the middle of a busy neighborhood and in the middle of a busy neighborhood and in the middle of a busy neighborhood and tons of people can see and they're like, tons of people can see and they're like, tons of people can see and they're like, did that rapper just come out of that did that rapper just come out of that did that rapper just come out of that car? Is that Dr. Max Butterfield from car? Is that Dr. Max Butterfield from car? Is that Dr. Max Butterfield from Instagram? like the the likelihood that Instagram? like the the likelihood that Instagram? like the the likelihood that guy. guy. guy. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I broke up >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I broke up >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I broke up with my boyfriend because of him. with my boyfriend because of him. with my boyfriend because of him. >> Uh the likelihood of you being caught is >> Uh the likelihood of you being caught is >> Uh the likelihood of you being caught is directly correlated with the amount of directly correlated with the amount of directly correlated with the amount of guilt that you feel. And I just every guilt that you feel. And I just every guilt that you feel. And I just every time that I see uh time that I see uh time that I see uh situations where someone is under situations where someone is under situations where someone is under pressure being um pressure being um pressure being um there's all of these court cases going there's all of these court cases going there's all of these court cases going on at the moment about the Epstein on at the moment about the Epstein on at the moment about the Epstein files, right? And people are being poked files, right? And people are being poked files, right? And people are being poked and prodded and and cross-examined or and prodded and and cross-examined or and prodded and and cross-examined or whatever. And I'm looking, this is big whatever. And I'm looking, this is big whatever. And I'm looking, this is big [ __ ] right? This is really [ __ ] this [ __ ] right? This is really [ __ ] this [ __ ] right? This is really [ __ ] this is the biggest case in the world right is the biggest case in the world right is the biggest case in the world right now and probably the biggest one that'll now and probably the biggest one that'll now and probably the biggest one that'll happen for quite a while. And he's the happen for quite a while. And he's the happen for quite a while. And he's the worst guy in history and so on and so worst guy in history and so on and so worst guy in history and so on and so forth. And I'm looking at these people forth. And I'm looking at these people forth. And I'm looking at these people and I'm watching them and I'm thinking, and I'm watching them and I'm thinking, and I'm watching them and I'm thinking, >> how's this [ __ ] breathing so >> how's this [ __ ] breathing so >> how's this [ __ ] breathing so slowly? And it's to me it's a one one of slowly? And it's to me it's a one one of slowly? And it's to me it's a one one of a few things. either goat meditator, a few things. either goat meditator, a few things. either goat meditator, breath work practitioner, uh with a breath work practitioner, uh with a breath work practitioner, uh with a [ __ ] nervous system like a glass [ __ ] nervous system like a glass [ __ ] nervous system like a glass lake. Um didn't do it and and lake. Um didn't do it and and lake. Um didn't do it and and importantly didn't do it and doesn't importantly didn't do it and doesn't importantly didn't do it and doesn't think that he's going to be uh falsely think that he's going to be uh falsely think that he's going to be uh falsely accused accused accused >> of having done it because didn't do it >> of having done it because didn't do it >> of having done it because didn't do it and still might do it is all of the and still might do it is all of the and still might do it is all of the disadvantages of guilt without any of disadvantages of guilt without any of disadvantages of guilt without any of the benefits of actually having to get the benefits of actually having to get the benefits of actually having to get away with the [ __ ] thing. Uh or the away with the [ __ ] thing. Uh or the away with the [ __ ] thing. Uh or the third one just straight up doesn't think third one just straight up doesn't think third one just straight up doesn't think that he's going to be caught regardless that he's going to be caught regardless that he's going to be caught regardless of whether he did it or not. So yeah, of whether he did it or not. So yeah, of whether he did it or not. So yeah, that I just it's interesting especially that I just it's interesting especially that I just it's interesting especially watching somebody who did it, announced watching somebody who did it, announced watching somebody who did it, announced it themselves or maybe he got he didn't it themselves or maybe he got he didn't it themselves or maybe he got he didn't really say or he says that he told her. really say or he says that he told her. really say or he says that he told her. Um this like retrospective guilt thing Um this like retrospective guilt thing Um this like retrospective guilt thing is real interesting to me because is real interesting to me because is real interesting to me because obviously all of the evidence is out obviously all of the evidence is out obviously all of the evidence is out there. He's already said it all. there. He's already said it all. there. He's already said it all. >> Right. And you know well there's another >> Right. And you know well there's another >> Right. And you know well there's another possibility as well and that's drugs. possibility as well and that's drugs. possibility as well and that's drugs. you know, the when you take beta you know, the when you take beta you know, the when you take beta blockers, for example, I don't know if blockers, for example, I don't know if blockers, for example, I don't know if you know about beta blockers, but you know about beta blockers, but you know about beta blockers, but basically it it blocks the ability in basically it it blocks the ability in basically it it blocks the ability in your body to detect that you're feeling your body to detect that you're feeling your body to detect that you're feeling anxious and they're meant for something anxious and they're meant for something anxious and they're meant for something else, but you know, uh you could take else, but you know, uh you could take else, but you know, uh you could take them if you have a you're you're going them if you have a you're you're going them if you have a you're you're going to go into a like a billiards tournament to go into a like a billiards tournament to go into a like a billiards tournament and you don't want shaky hands, so you and you don't want shaky hands, so you and you don't want shaky hands, so you take beta blockers or you have a big take beta blockers or you have a big take beta blockers or you have a big presentation and they're they're presentation and they're they're presentation and they're they're prescription only, so you have to go to prescription only, so you have to go to prescription only, so you have to go to your physician to get them. But these your physician to get them. But these your physician to get them. But these beta blockers essentially lower your beta blockers essentially lower your beta blockers essentially lower your heart rate, lower your respiration rate, heart rate, lower your respiration rate, heart rate, lower your respiration rate, lower your uh your blood pressure, like lower your uh your blood pressure, like lower your uh your blood pressure, like all that stuff. But they also all that stuff. But they also all that stuff. But they also disconnect. So you don't feel that disconnect. So you don't feel that disconnect. So you don't feel that sensation of the beating heart. And so sensation of the beating heart. And so sensation of the beating heart. And so >> you know there could be any any files >> you know there could be any any files >> you know there could be any any files are using performance-enhancing. are using performance-enhancing. are using performance-enhancing. >> They're juicing. That's what it is. >> They're juicing. That's what it is. >> They're juicing. That's what it is. >> But come on, if I said that to you, >> But come on, if I said that to you, >> But come on, if I said that to you, would you be shocked if the you know would you be shocked if the you know would you be shocked if the you know they went to their doctor and they said, they went to their doctor and they said, they went to their doctor and they said, "I got to go to the courtroom and I have "I got to go to the courtroom and I have "I got to go to the courtroom and I have to I have to maintain calm." Like what to I have to maintain calm." Like what to I have to maintain calm." Like what do you do? Beta blockers done, do you do? Beta blockers done, do you do? Beta blockers done, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Little do you know >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Little do you know >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Little do you know that you're helping people regulate that you're helping people regulate that you're helping people regulate their way through being cross-examined their way through being cross-examined their way through being cross-examined about being a part of the [ __ ] worst about being a part of the [ __ ] worst about being a part of the [ __ ] worst conspiracy in history. conspiracy in history. conspiracy in history. >> That Let's just Let's cut this. Come on, >> That Let's just Let's cut this. Come on, >> That Let's just Let's cut this. Come on, man. You got to You got to help me out. man. You got to You got to help me out. man. You got to You got to help me out. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, okay. How similar is grieving a breakup to How similar is grieving a breakup to How similar is grieving a breakup to grieving a death? Like neurologically in grieving a death? Like neurologically in grieving a death? Like neurologically in terms of the way that it it sort of terms of the way that it it sort of terms of the way that it it sort of impacts our attachment system? impacts our attachment system? impacts our attachment system? >> I think in many ways it's the same. >> I think in many ways it's the same. >> I think in many ways it's the same. Yeah. We're very we have very blunt Yeah. We're very we have very blunt Yeah. We're very we have very blunt instruments in terms of our regulatory instruments in terms of our regulatory instruments in terms of our regulatory systems and it's like like fight or systems and it's like like fight or systems and it's like like fight or flight for example. The idea that we're flight for example. The idea that we're flight for example. The idea that we're being chased by a bear is going to being chased by a bear is going to being chased by a bear is going to activate the same systems as getting in activate the same systems as getting in activate the same systems as getting in a fight with your mom. And maybe not to a fight with your mom. And maybe not to a fight with your mom. And maybe not to the same degree, but it's just one the same degree, but it's just one the same degree, but it's just one system and it's either on or off. And in system and it's either on or off. And in system and it's either on or off. And in many ways, I think grief is the same. many ways, I think grief is the same. many ways, I think grief is the same. And so as a result, any kind of loss, And so as a result, any kind of loss, And so as a result, any kind of loss, whether you lose your dog or your whether you lose your dog or your whether you lose your dog or your grandma or your romantic partner, we grandma or your romantic partner, we grandma or your romantic partner, we just have these blunt instruments that just have these blunt instruments that just have these blunt instruments that are kind of on or off. This episode is are kind of on or off. This episode is are kind of on or off. This episode is brought to you by Gym Shark. You want to brought to you by Gym Shark. You want to brought to you by Gym Shark. You want to look and feel good when you're in the look and feel good when you're in the look and feel good when you're in the gym, and Gym Shark makes the best men's gym, and Gym Shark makes the best men's gym, and Gym Shark makes the best men's and girls gymwear on the planet. Let's and girls gymwear on the planet. 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Basically everything they make. It's unbelievably everything they make. It's unbelievably everything they make. It's unbelievably well fitted, high quality. It's cheap. well fitted, high quality. It's cheap. well fitted, high quality. It's cheap. You get 30 days of free returns, global You get 30 days of free returns, global You get 30 days of free returns, global shipping, and a 10% discount sitewide if shipping, and a 10% discount sitewide if shipping, and a 10% discount sitewide if you go to the link in the description you go to the link in the description you go to the link in the description below or head to below or head to below or head to jy.sh/modernwisdisomdom. jy.sh/modernwisdisomdom. jy.sh/modernwisdisomdom. Use the code modernwisdom10 at checkout. Use the code modernwisdom10 at checkout. Use the code modernwisdom10 at checkout. That's jim.sh/modernwisdom sh/modern That's jim.sh/modernwisdom sh/modern That's jim.sh/modernwisdom sh/modern wisdom and modern wisdom 10 at checkout. wisdom and modern wisdom 10 at checkout. wisdom and modern wisdom 10 at checkout. Why do we ruminate so much? What's the Why do we ruminate so much? What's the Why do we ruminate so much? What's the role of rumination? role of rumination? role of rumination? There are variety of theories about There are variety of theories about There are variety of theories about that. You know, you mentioned that. You know, you mentioned that. You know, you mentioned evolutionary theory before and one idea evolutionary theory before and one idea evolutionary theory before and one idea is that rumination will prevent you from is that rumination will prevent you from is that rumination will prevent you from doing this in the future. So, this is an doing this in the future. So, this is an doing this in the future. So, this is an applied mechanism that over time people applied mechanism that over time people applied mechanism that over time people who tended to ruminate would make less who tended to ruminate would make less who tended to ruminate would make less mistakes actually over time. you know, mistakes actually over time. you know, mistakes actually over time. you know, just kind of one theory and they'd be just kind of one theory and they'd be just kind of one theory and they'd be more likely to survive. So, you more likely to survive. So, you more likely to survive. So, you accidentally cut off your finger with a accidentally cut off your finger with a accidentally cut off your finger with a rock back in the back in the day and you rock back in the back in the day and you rock back in the back in the day and you know, you smash it or whatever. That's know, you smash it or whatever. That's know, you smash it or whatever. That's just kind of basic learning. Don't don't just kind of basic learning. Don't don't just kind of basic learning. Don't don't do that again. And if you're constantly do that again. And if you're constantly do that again. And if you're constantly worrying, don't smash my finger, don't worrying, don't smash my finger, don't worrying, don't smash my finger, don't smash my finger, remember that time I smash my finger, remember that time I smash my finger, remember that time I smashed my finger, smashed my finger, smashed my finger, >> you're a lot less likely to smash your >> you're a lot less likely to smash your >> you're a lot less likely to smash your finger. And it's the same with breakups finger. And it's the same with breakups finger. And it's the same with breakups or or anything else. So, that that's one or or anything else. So, that that's one or or anything else. So, that that's one theory. Another is much more uh local theory. Another is much more uh local theory. Another is much more uh local kind of present to your own life and kind of present to your own life and kind of present to your own life and that is it serves a function for you in that is it serves a function for you in that is it serves a function for you in the moment which is you ruminate and you the moment which is you ruminate and you the moment which is you ruminate and you get in some ways rewarded by that. It get in some ways rewarded by that. It get in some ways rewarded by that. It creates maybe stimulation in you whether creates maybe stimulation in you whether creates maybe stimulation in you whether it's dopamine or anything else and that it's dopamine or anything else and that it's dopamine or anything else and that rumination makes it's rewarding even rumination makes it's rewarding even rumination makes it's rewarding even though it's punishing at the same time. though it's punishing at the same time. though it's punishing at the same time. This is again this idea that sometimes This is again this idea that sometimes This is again this idea that sometimes punishing things can feel good like that punishing things can feel good like that punishing things can feel good like that class clown in fifth grade that gets class clown in fifth grade that gets class clown in fifth grade that gets yelled at by the teacher but all the yelled at by the teacher but all the yelled at by the teacher but all the other students laugh. That punishment is other students laugh. That punishment is other students laugh. That punishment is actually reinforcing and you know in actually reinforcing and you know in actually reinforcing and you know in many ways. So that's that's another many ways. So that's that's another many ways. So that's that's another theory is that rumination is this loop theory is that rumination is this loop theory is that rumination is this loop that we get stuck in that certainly it that we get stuck in that certainly it that we get stuck in that certainly it makes us feel bad but also it can be makes us feel bad but also it can be makes us feel bad but also it can be self- continuing. And so different self- continuing. And so different self- continuing. And so different people have different you know different people have different you know different people have different you know different approaches to understanding it. For me, approaches to understanding it. For me, approaches to understanding it. For me, I that's what I like to look at when I'm I that's what I like to look at when I'm I that's what I like to look at when I'm advising people is what function is this advising people is what function is this advising people is what function is this serving for you? And most people say, serving for you? And most people say, serving for you? And most people say, "What are you talking about? "What are you talking about? "What are you talking about? That's not serving any function." And That's not serving any function." And That's not serving any function." And that's why it keeps happening is because that's why it keeps happening is because that's why it keeps happening is because we don't have that insight that it we don't have that insight that it we don't have that insight that it actually is doing something. And that's actually is doing something. And that's actually is doing something. And that's we have to get to the bottom of it. Rick we have to get to the bottom of it. Rick we have to get to the bottom of it. Rick Hansen has a podcast with his son Forest Hansen has a podcast with his son Forest Hansen has a podcast with his son Forest called Being Well, and they did a full called Being Well, and they did a full called Being Well, and they did a full episode on rumination. And that was one episode on rumination. And that was one episode on rumination. And that was one of the things that I found so of the things that I found so of the things that I found so fascinating. He as gets people to ask fascinating. He as gets people to ask fascinating. He as gets people to ask this question. Um, what are you getting this question. Um, what are you getting this question. Um, what are you getting out of your rumination? out of your rumination? out of your rumination? >> What are you getting out of your what >> What are you getting out of your what >> What are you getting out of your what what is it that what is it that what is it that >> it's doing for you? And you're right. >> it's doing for you? And you're right. >> it's doing for you? And you're right. When you first think about that When you first think about that When you first think about that question, you go, "What the [ __ ] do you question, you go, "What the [ __ ] do you question, you go, "What the [ __ ] do you mean if I could mean if I could mean if I could >> exercise this out of me? If I could >> exercise this out of me? If I could >> exercise this out of me? If I could expune it from myself, of course I I expune it from myself, of course I I expune it from myself, of course I I don't want to be thinking about this don't want to be thinking about this don't want to be thinking about this thing from the past. this stupid thing from the past. this stupid thing from the past. this stupid sentence that I said at dinner last sentence that I said at dinner last sentence that I said at dinner last night or how that person that I really night or how that person that I really night or how that person that I really like probably doesn't like me back and like probably doesn't like me back and like probably doesn't like me back and I'm worried that they don't or whatever I'm worried that they don't or whatever I'm worried that they don't or whatever that my girlfriend's going to find out that my girlfriend's going to find out that my girlfriend's going to find out that I cheated on her. Um, but it is it that I cheated on her. Um, but it is it that I cheated on her. Um, but it is it is and uh couple of things a couple of is and uh couple of things a couple of is and uh couple of things a couple of insights that that I think at least hold insights that that I think at least hold insights that that I think at least hold a bit of water. One is that the human a bit of water. One is that the human a bit of water. One is that the human mind abhors uncertainty so much. mind abhors uncertainty so much. mind abhors uncertainty so much. Ambiguity and uncertainty are kind of Ambiguity and uncertainty are kind of Ambiguity and uncertainty are kind of one of the seats of of um like the one of the seats of of um like the one of the seats of of um like the germinators of anxiety. And if you've germinators of anxiety. And if you've germinators of anxiety. And if you've got ambiguity and uncertainty, you would got ambiguity and uncertainty, you would got ambiguity and uncertainty, you would rather imagine a catastrophe than deal rather imagine a catastrophe than deal rather imagine a catastrophe than deal with ambiguity because what happened, with ambiguity because what happened, with ambiguity because what happened, what is going to happen, what this means what is going to happen, what this means what is going to happen, what this means for the future. There is an open loop for the future. There is an open loop for the future. There is an open loop somewhere and you're closing it. You're somewhere and you're closing it. You're somewhere and you're closing it. You're collapsing it down. But because we have collapsing it down. But because we have collapsing it down. But because we have a negativity bias, you're collapsing it a negativity bias, you're collapsing it a negativity bias, you're collapsing it down to perhaps a situation so bad that down to perhaps a situation so bad that down to perhaps a situation so bad that even the physics of the universe even the physics of the universe even the physics of the universe couldn't allow it to, you know, your couldn't allow it to, you know, your couldn't allow it to, you know, your [ __ ] dead grandmother comes back and [ __ ] dead grandmother comes back and [ __ ] dead grandmother comes back and she sees that you cheated on your she sees that you cheated on your she sees that you cheated on your girlfriend and then the entire univer girlfriend and then the entire univer girlfriend and then the entire univer Well, I mean, this guy's managed to make Well, I mean, this guy's managed to make Well, I mean, this guy's managed to make the entire world see. Um, the entire world see. Um, the entire world see. Um, >> you are collapsing down the superp >> you are collapsing down the superp >> you are collapsing down the superp position of all of the uncertainty into position of all of the uncertainty into position of all of the uncertainty into something. And it just goes to show how something. And it just goes to show how something. And it just goes to show how much humans abhore much humans abhore much humans abhore uh ambiguity and uncertainty that we uh ambiguity and uncertainty that we uh ambiguity and uncertainty that we would rather imagine a catastrophe than would rather imagine a catastrophe than would rather imagine a catastrophe than deal with not knowing. I think that's deal with not knowing. I think that's deal with not knowing. I think that's that's kind of that's that's a pretty that's kind of that's that's a pretty that's kind of that's that's a pretty cool insight. Well, another another cool insight. Well, another another cool insight. Well, another another element of this is that our brains are element of this is that our brains are element of this is that our brains are also also also cognitive misers. They want to take the cognitive misers. They want to take the cognitive misers. They want to take the path of least resistance. They want to path of least resistance. They want to path of least resistance. They want to do the thing that's easiest. And so if do the thing that's easiest. And so if do the thing that's easiest. And so if you wear in a path, this is, you know, you wear in a path, this is, you know, you wear in a path, this is, you know, very much kind of glossing over a lot of very much kind of glossing over a lot of very much kind of glossing over a lot of details, but if you wear in a path, that details, but if you wear in a path, that details, but if you wear in a path, that path is going to get used again and it's path is going to get used again and it's path is going to get used again and it's going to get used again and again. And going to get used again and again. And going to get used again and again. And so if you ruminate once, you're a little so if you ruminate once, you're a little so if you ruminate once, you're a little more likely to ruminate again. And if more likely to ruminate again. And if more likely to ruminate again. And if you ruminate again, and you you see you ruminate again, and you you see you ruminate again, and you you see where this is going, this isn't good. So where this is going, this isn't good. So where this is going, this isn't good. So if we have an evolved tendency to if we have an evolved tendency to if we have an evolved tendency to ruminate and it can serve a function for ruminate and it can serve a function for ruminate and it can serve a function for us and it's selfreinforcing us and it's selfreinforcing us and it's selfreinforcing just because of cognitive architecture, just because of cognitive architecture, just because of cognitive architecture, we're kind of doomed in a lot of ways we're kind of doomed in a lot of ways we're kind of doomed in a lot of ways once that rumination starts unless once that rumination starts unless once that rumination starts unless there's intervention. And interventions there's intervention. And interventions there's intervention. And interventions I mean therapy can be helpful but there I mean therapy can be helpful but there I mean therapy can be helpful but there are other interventions as well. Just are other interventions as well. Just are other interventions as well. Just >> you know breaking your routine, going >> you know breaking your routine, going >> you know breaking your routine, going somewhere else, doing something else. It somewhere else, doing something else. It somewhere else, doing something else. It doesn't always have to be therapy. doesn't always have to be therapy. doesn't always have to be therapy. Therapy is good for some people um but Therapy is good for some people um but Therapy is good for some people um but for others you can do this without you for others you can do this without you for others you can do this without you know this serious kind of costly know this serious kind of costly know this serious kind of costly intervention. It's like do something intervention. It's like do something intervention. It's like do something else, think about something else. Yeah, else, think about something else. Yeah, else, think about something else. Yeah, it seems like you're suggesting that the it seems like you're suggesting that the it seems like you're suggesting that the content of your thoughts after a content of your thoughts after a content of your thoughts after a difficult period are pretty important difficult period are pretty important difficult period are pretty important that if you want to get over whatever it that if you want to get over whatever it that if you want to get over whatever it is that's happening, giving yourself is that's happening, giving yourself is that's happening, giving yourself some fresh territory to inhabit. [ __ ] I some fresh territory to inhabit. [ __ ] I some fresh territory to inhabit. [ __ ] I I I really really hate the way that if I I really really hate the way that if I I really really hate the way that if my partner's been on a night out that I my partner's been on a night out that I my partner's been on a night out that I worry about them the next morning and worry about them the next morning and worry about them the next morning and whether I've got a text or that every whether I've got a text or that every whether I've got a text or that every morning I wake up and I think about that morning I wake up and I think about that morning I wake up and I think about that girl and hasn't she hasn't text me back girl and hasn't she hasn't text me back girl and hasn't she hasn't text me back or whatever. It's like, okay, well maybe or whatever. It's like, okay, well maybe or whatever. It's like, okay, well maybe if you do something different because if you do something different because if you do something different because your thoughts are attached to the your thoughts are attached to the your thoughts are attached to the patterns that you've been behaving, the patterns that you've been behaving, the patterns that you've been behaving, the fact that you get up and look at your fact that you get up and look at your fact that you get up and look at your phone straight away or the fact that you phone straight away or the fact that you phone straight away or the fact that you get up and go to that part of the house get up and go to that part of the house get up and go to that part of the house in order to get breakfast. Well, maybe in order to get breakfast. Well, maybe in order to get breakfast. Well, maybe if you got up and went straight to a if you got up and went straight to a if you got up and went straight to a coffee shop, that pattern's already coffee shop, that pattern's already coffee shop, that pattern's already disrupted the way that you operate and disrupted the way that you operate and disrupted the way that you operate and therefore it's going to disrupt the way therefore it's going to disrupt the way therefore it's going to disrupt the way that you think. that you think. that you think. >> Exactly. You know, if you wake up and >> Exactly. You know, if you wake up and >> Exactly. You know, if you wake up and you check your phone instantly, put your you check your phone instantly, put your you check your phone instantly, put your phone somewhere else. Put it in the phone somewhere else. Put it in the phone somewhere else. Put it in the garage. Put it in the car before you go garage. Put it in the car before you go garage. Put it in the car before you go to bed. It It's not It doesn't have to to bed. It It's not It doesn't have to to bed. It It's not It doesn't have to be complicated. It just is switch things be complicated. It just is switch things be complicated. It just is switch things up a little bit. And up a little bit. And up a little bit. And I think people over complicate, I think people over complicate, I think people over complicate, especially people who tend to ruminate. especially people who tend to ruminate. especially people who tend to ruminate. They're like, "Well, there has to be a They're like, "Well, there has to be a They're like, "Well, there has to be a complicated solution. Right. Let me complicated solution. Right. Let me complicated solution. Right. Let me allow me to ruminate about my rumination allow me to ruminate about my rumination allow me to ruminate about my rumination problem. problem. problem. >> Yeah. No. Exactly. Exactly. And and I >> Yeah. No. Exactly. Exactly. And and I >> Yeah. No. Exactly. Exactly. And and I think sometimes also just arguing with think sometimes also just arguing with think sometimes also just arguing with yourself, just chipping, you don't have yourself, just chipping, you don't have yourself, just chipping, you don't have to completely prove the rumination to completely prove the rumination to completely prove the rumination wrong, but just chipping away at it. I wrong, but just chipping away at it. I wrong, but just chipping away at it. I was talking to a guy a while back and he was talking to a guy a while back and he was talking to a guy a while back and he was worried that this woman he broke up was worried that this woman he broke up was worried that this woman he broke up with was living her best life after they with was living her best life after they with was living her best life after they broke up. And he just had that thought broke up. And he just had that thought broke up. And he just had that thought just kept popping into her head o his just kept popping into her head o his just kept popping into her head o his head over and over and over again. head over and over and over again. head over and over and over again. >> And I said to him, "How do you know she >> And I said to him, "How do you know she >> And I said to him, "How do you know she didn't step in gum today? didn't step in gum today? didn't step in gum today? He's like, "I don't I don't know. Maybe He's like, "I don't I don't know. Maybe He's like, "I don't I don't know. Maybe she did. Maybe she did." You know, and she did. Maybe she did." You know, and she did. Maybe she did." You know, and that's that's all it takes is just a that's that's all it takes is just a that's that's all it takes is just a little bit of possibility. And you can little bit of possibility. And you can little bit of possibility. And you can do that to yourself. Just argue with do that to yourself. Just argue with do that to yourself. Just argue with yourself. And it's not I I don't want to yourself. And it's not I I don't want to yourself. And it's not I I don't want to say that there's just a simple solution. say that there's just a simple solution. say that there's just a simple solution. All you have to do is stop thinking that All you have to do is stop thinking that All you have to do is stop thinking that way. That's not it at all. It has to be way. That's not it at all. It has to be way. That's not it at all. It has to be very intentional. You actually have to very intentional. You actually have to very intentional. You actually have to take steps. Put your phone in the car, take steps. Put your phone in the car, take steps. Put your phone in the car, go out for breakfast, chip away. Maybe go out for breakfast, chip away. Maybe go out for breakfast, chip away. Maybe she did stepping gum. And those things she did stepping gum. And those things she did stepping gum. And those things really add up over time. really add up over time. really add up over time. >> I love the idea of uh >> I love the idea of uh >> I love the idea of uh rumination being a teacher. And the rumination being a teacher. And the rumination being a teacher. And the reason that I like it is I think a lot reason that I like it is I think a lot reason that I like it is I think a lot of people have a problem with their of people have a problem with their of people have a problem with their first order emotions, right? Feeling first order emotions, right? Feeling first order emotions, right? Feeling sad. But it's really the second and sad. But it's really the second and sad. But it's really the second and third order emotions. It's their third order emotions. It's their third order emotions. It's their frustration at their sadness and then frustration at their sadness and then frustration at their sadness and then their bitterness about their frustration their bitterness about their frustration their bitterness about their frustration about their sadness. But if you've got about their sadness. But if you've got about their sadness. But if you've got this infinite regress of self this infinite regress of self this infinite regress of self flagagillation about all of the [ __ ] flagagillation about all of the [ __ ] flagagillation about all of the [ __ ] that you've done or think that you've that you've done or think that you've that you've done or think that you've done or how you should have seen the done or how you should have seen the done or how you should have seen the thing that you were going to do, um, a thing that you were going to do, um, a thing that you were going to do, um, a nice way to work out again, how is this nice way to work out again, how is this nice way to work out again, how is this serving you? Even if it's an ultimate as serving you? Even if it's an ultimate as serving you? Even if it's an ultimate as opposed to approximate outcome that opposed to approximate outcome that opposed to approximate outcome that we're playing with now from an we're playing with now from an we're playing with now from an evolutionary lens, what's cool is you evolutionary lens, what's cool is you evolutionary lens, what's cool is you go, oh, it's trying to keep me safe. go, oh, it's trying to keep me safe. go, oh, it's trying to keep me safe. It's trying to teach me something. I It's trying to teach me something. I It's trying to teach me something. I went through this very difficult, went through this very difficult, went through this very difficult, painful situation and it's making me painful situation and it's making me painful situation and it's making me think about it and then it's making me think about it and then it's making me think about it and then it's making me think about how much of an idiot I am think about how much of an idiot I am think about how much of an idiot I am for thinking about it and then it's for thinking about it and then it's for thinking about it and then it's getting me frustrated at how much of an getting me frustrated at how much of an getting me frustrated at how much of an idiot I think I am for how much I'm idiot I think I am for how much I'm idiot I think I am for how much I'm thinking about it and all of this is thinking about it and all of this is thinking about it and all of this is just trying to marshall defenses to make just trying to marshall defenses to make just trying to marshall defenses to make sure that I'm safe and make sure that my sure that I'm safe and make sure that my sure that I'm safe and make sure that my life goes well moving forward. So, thank life goes well moving forward. So, thank life goes well moving forward. So, thank you. Thank you many million-year-old you. Thank you many million-year-old you. Thank you many million-year-old programming for trying to keep me safe. programming for trying to keep me safe. programming for trying to keep me safe. And it just I think it at least helps to And it just I think it at least helps to And it just I think it at least helps to it's a solvent that helps to dissolve a it's a solvent that helps to dissolve a it's a solvent that helps to dissolve a little bit of the the judgment that little bit of the the judgment that little bit of the the judgment that people have around around that stuff people have around around that stuff people have around around that stuff >> that that kind of self judgment is so >> that that kind of self judgment is so >> that that kind of self judgment is so prevalent and I really envy the people prevalent and I really envy the people prevalent and I really envy the people who don't think you know who who just who don't think you know who who just who don't think you know who who just can turn it off and go for that run or can turn it off and go for that run or can turn it off and go for that run or turn it off and just watch TV or you turn it off and just watch TV or you turn it off and just watch TV or you know whatever it is that they do. um know whatever it is that they do. um know whatever it is that they do. um because that that's not me and I think because that that's not me and I think because that that's not me and I think most people find themselves really most people find themselves really most people find themselves really harshly judging not just what they've harshly judging not just what they've harshly judging not just what they've done but especially what they haven't done but especially what they haven't done but especially what they haven't done what they could have done as an done what they could have done as an done what they could have done as an alternative and there's a lot of new alternative and there's a lot of new alternative and there's a lot of new research out there about and we do this research out there about and we do this research out there about and we do this some of this in our research lab about some of this in our research lab about some of this in our research lab about the difference between compassion and the difference between compassion and the difference between compassion and self-compassion self-compassion self-compassion and what's really interesting is if some and what's really interesting is if some and what's really interesting is if some so suppose you uh you know you cheat and so suppose you uh you know you cheat and so suppose you uh you know you cheat and like this guy and he should feel guilty like this guy and he should feel guilty like this guy and he should feel guilty for that don't get me wrong He should for that don't get me wrong He should for that don't get me wrong He should feel very guilty about that. But that feel very guilty about that. But that feel very guilty about that. But that being said, it's much easier for me to being said, it's much easier for me to being said, it's much easier for me to say, you know what, everybody makes say, you know what, everybody makes say, you know what, everybody makes mistakes. Move on. You know, don't maybe mistakes. Move on. You know, don't maybe mistakes. Move on. You know, don't maybe don't mention it at the Olympics again don't mention it at the Olympics again don't mention it at the Olympics again next time. And but to to forgive next time. And but to to forgive next time. And but to to forgive yourself is often much more difficult. yourself is often much more difficult. yourself is often much more difficult. So there's this disparity that So there's this disparity that So there's this disparity that researchers have been targeting researchers have been targeting researchers have been targeting recently. Why is it that it's easy to recently. Why is it that it's easy to recently. Why is it that it's easy to know when to apply compassion to someone know when to apply compassion to someone know when to apply compassion to someone else's life? And in our own case, we else's life? And in our own case, we else's life? And in our own case, we have a lot of guilt and shame about what have a lot of guilt and shame about what have a lot of guilt and shame about what we could have done or what we didn't do we could have done or what we didn't do we could have done or what we didn't do or what we should have done differently. or what we should have done differently. or what we should have done differently. And that creates problems downstream. And that creates problems downstream. And that creates problems downstream. >> How do you advise people to develop more >> How do you advise people to develop more >> How do you advise people to develop more self-compassion? That's it's s it's such self-compassion? That's it's s it's such self-compassion? That's it's s it's such the cutting edge of research that there the cutting edge of research that there the cutting edge of research that there is not a good intervention right now is not a good intervention right now is not a good intervention right now that there there's some there's this that there there's some there's this that there there's some there's this researcher named Kristen Nef who is kind researcher named Kristen Nef who is kind researcher named Kristen Nef who is kind of the guru of this and one of the of the guru of this and one of the of the guru of this and one of the things she shows is that kind of like things she shows is that kind of like things she shows is that kind of like writing a letter to uh yourself as you writing a letter to uh yourself as you writing a letter to uh yourself as you would to a friend can be really helpful. would to a friend can be really helpful. would to a friend can be really helpful. Even just writing a letter to a friend Even just writing a letter to a friend Even just writing a letter to a friend advising them if they were in the same advising them if they were in the same advising them if they were in the same situation here's what you should do. So, situation here's what you should do. So, situation here's what you should do. So, a lot of it has to do with a lot of it has to do with a lot of it has to do with self-reflection and just being aware of self-reflection and just being aware of self-reflection and just being aware of this fact that we're treating ourselves this fact that we're treating ourselves this fact that we're treating ourselves differently than other people. But differently than other people. But differently than other people. But truly, researchers are looking for truly, researchers are looking for truly, researchers are looking for interventions as we speak. We're doing interventions as we speak. We're doing interventions as we speak. We're doing in our lab as well because it's it's in our lab as well because it's it's in our lab as well because it's it's such a prevalent problem that only such a prevalent problem that only such a prevalent problem that only recently has been identified. recently has been identified. recently has been identified. >> Very cool. Talk to me about high >> Very cool. Talk to me about high >> Very cool. Talk to me about high rejection sensitivity. I I had an rejection sensitivity. I I had an rejection sensitivity. I I had an inclination about this, but I'd never inclination about this, but I'd never inclination about this, but I'd never heard it as a formal term before I heard it as a formal term before I heard it as a formal term before I started looking at your work. started looking at your work. started looking at your work. >> Yeah. So rejection sensitivity is >> Yeah. So rejection sensitivity is >> Yeah. So rejection sensitivity is basically do you like rejection or not? basically do you like rejection or not? basically do you like rejection or not? And most people don't. So it's normal And most people don't. So it's normal And most people don't. So it's normal not to like it, but how much does it not to like it, but how much does it not to like it, but how much does it affect you downstream? And some people affect you downstream? And some people affect you downstream? And some people what happens is they are so sensitive to what happens is they are so sensitive to what happens is they are so sensitive to being rejected that they see signs of it being rejected that they see signs of it being rejected that they see signs of it even when they haven't been rejected at even when they haven't been rejected at even when they haven't been rejected at all. So you send me a text and I don't all. So you send me a text and I don't all. So you send me a text and I don't respond instantly. respond instantly. respond instantly. If you were high in rejection If you were high in rejection If you were high in rejection sensitivity, it's, oh, he hates me sensitivity, it's, oh, he hates me sensitivity, it's, oh, he hates me and probably he never wants to talk to and probably he never wants to talk to and probably he never wants to talk to me again and you know what, I'm never me again and you know what, I'm never me again and you know what, I'm never going to talk to him again. I'll show going to talk to him again. I'll show going to talk to him again. I'll show him. And so what that what that does is him. And so what that what that does is him. And so what that what that does is it creates these turbulent social it creates these turbulent social it creates these turbulent social environments where you are now seeing environments where you are now seeing environments where you are now seeing it's a lens that you see rejection it's a lens that you see rejection it's a lens that you see rejection everywhere. Even when it's just everywhere. Even when it's just everywhere. Even when it's just ambiguous, sometimes people don't text ambiguous, sometimes people don't text ambiguous, sometimes people don't text right back. And so rejection sensitivity right back. And so rejection sensitivity right back. And so rejection sensitivity has been associated with neurode has been associated with neurode has been associated with neurode divergence in some ways. So you you will divergence in some ways. So you you will divergence in some ways. So you you will occasionally see it in people with occasionally see it in people with occasionally see it in people with autism or people with ADHD. Uh you'll autism or people with ADHD. Uh you'll autism or people with ADHD. Uh you'll see it in people with personality see it in people with personality see it in people with personality disorders at a much higher rate. And the disorders at a much higher rate. And the disorders at a much higher rate. And the reason why isn't necessarily because reason why isn't necessarily because reason why isn't necessarily because it's causing those disorders, but it's it's causing those disorders, but it's it's causing those disorders, but it's part of a constellation of behaviors and part of a constellation of behaviors and part of a constellation of behaviors and kind of just ways of living and lenses kind of just ways of living and lenses kind of just ways of living and lenses of viewing the world. of viewing the world. of viewing the world. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. What about what? Talk to me about some What about what? Talk to me about some What about what? Talk to me about some of the ways that you wish more men and of the ways that you wish more men and of the ways that you wish more men and women knew um how to signal interest women knew um how to signal interest women knew um how to signal interest because I think this is something I'm because I think this is something I'm because I think this is something I'm seeing more of online now. Maybe this is seeing more of online now. Maybe this is seeing more of online now. Maybe this is kind of the progeny of a postmeto world kind of the progeny of a postmeto world kind of the progeny of a postmeto world where men have been taught not only that where men have been taught not only that where men have been taught not only that no means no, but that anything short of no means no, but that anything short of no means no, but that anything short of a really really obvious hell yeah is a really really obvious hell yeah is a really really obvious hell yeah is probably get the [ __ ] away from me. and probably get the [ __ ] away from me. and probably get the [ __ ] away from me. and they don't want to make women feel they don't want to make women feel they don't want to make women feel uncomfortable and they don't want to uncomfortable and they don't want to uncomfortable and they don't want to blow through boundaries that aren't blow through boundaries that aren't blow through boundaries that aren't there and they're scared of being a part there and they're scared of being a part there and they're scared of being a part of some me too and they're just good of some me too and they're just good of some me too and they're just good people generally. people generally. people generally. >> Uh so I'm seeing more >> Uh so I'm seeing more >> Uh so I'm seeing more there was a video of a girl talking there was a video of a girl talking there was a video of a girl talking about how in New York people women are about how in New York people women are about how in New York people women are stealing finance bros salads. There's stealing finance bros salads. There's stealing finance bros salads. There's >> I've seen that. Yeah, absolutely. >> I've seen that. Yeah, absolutely. >> I've seen that. Yeah, absolutely. >> There's a a girl walking through Central >> There's a a girl walking through Central >> There's a a girl walking through Central Park with like pretty big boobs and no Park with like pretty big boobs and no Park with like pretty big boobs and no top on. no top on, no bra on, saying top on. no top on, no bra on, saying top on. no top on, no bra on, saying like, "No, my skin's glowing and no like, "No, my skin's glowing and no like, "No, my skin's glowing and no guy's going to come up and talk to me. guy's going to come up and talk to me. guy's going to come up and talk to me. There's another one of a girl walking in There's another one of a girl walking in There's another one of a girl walking in a maxi dress, this party dress down the a maxi dress, this party dress down the a maxi dress, this party dress down the street, and the caption something like, street, and the caption something like, street, and the caption something like, I can't wait to go out and have no guy I can't wait to go out and have no guy I can't wait to go out and have no guy come up to me at the bar." Um, what do come up to me at the bar." Um, what do come up to me at the bar." Um, what do you wish more men and women knew about you wish more men and women knew about you wish more men and women knew about how to signal interest? how to signal interest? how to signal interest? >> Yeah, it's much simpler than you would >> Yeah, it's much simpler than you would >> Yeah, it's much simpler than you would imagine. You don't need tricks. The imagine. You don't need tricks. The imagine. You don't need tricks. The easiest way to do it is say, "Hey, easiest way to do it is say, "Hey, easiest way to do it is say, "Hey, you're cute," or whatever. I don't know you're cute," or whatever. I don't know you're cute," or whatever. I don't know what people say. uh normal people, human what people say. uh normal people, human what people say. uh normal people, human beings, you know, but you can say beings, you know, but you can say beings, you know, but you can say whatever. You can say, "Hey, I like whatever. You can say, "Hey, I like whatever. You can say, "Hey, I like you." Or, "Hey, that's a killer boots." you." Or, "Hey, that's a killer boots." you." Or, "Hey, that's a killer boots." That is that is a great phrase. Not That is that is a great phrase. Not That is that is a great phrase. Not super dangerous. You know, that's the super dangerous. You know, that's the super dangerous. You know, that's the danger I think with uh with flirting and danger I think with uh with flirting and danger I think with uh with flirting and signaling interest is that you can go signaling interest is that you can go signaling interest is that you can go too far. You can absolutely go too far. You can absolutely go too far. You can absolutely go overboard. And commenting on people's overboard. And commenting on people's overboard. And commenting on people's bodies, for example, don't probably bodies, for example, don't probably bodies, for example, don't probably don't do that. Um commenting on their don't do that. Um commenting on their don't do that. Um commenting on their clothes is body adjacent. And so that clothes is body adjacent. And so that clothes is body adjacent. And so that can be dangerous as well, like but get can be dangerous as well, like but get can be dangerous as well, like but get chased. chased. chased. >> Yeah, it it really is. You know, it's >> Yeah, it it really is. You know, it's >> Yeah, it it really is. You know, it's like, oh, that that top is pretty tight, like, oh, that that top is pretty tight, like, oh, that that top is pretty tight, huh? You know, like Yeah. Um, and so you do have to be Yeah. Um, and so you do have to be careful. Flirting by its very nature is careful. Flirting by its very nature is careful. Flirting by its very nature is ambiguous. That's why it's good. People ambiguous. That's why it's good. People ambiguous. That's why it's good. People have lost the ability in many ways to have lost the ability in many ways to have lost the ability in many ways to flirt because flirt because flirt because not because of me too but because I not because of me too but because I not because of me too but because I think people took flirting a little too think people took flirting a little too think people took flirting a little too far in the workplace in schools and as a far in the workplace in schools and as a far in the workplace in schools and as a result we had to teach them okay stop result we had to teach them okay stop result we had to teach them okay stop doing that you know stop commenting on doing that you know stop commenting on doing that you know stop commenting on people's bodies that's not welcome in people's bodies that's not welcome in people's bodies that's not welcome in some in some cases but I think that's some in some cases but I think that's some in some cases but I think that's why being forthright is helpful but it's why being forthright is helpful but it's why being forthright is helpful but it's hard because you have to put yourself hard because you have to put yourself hard because you have to put yourself out there whereas with flirting it's out there whereas with flirting it's out there whereas with flirting it's like oh maybe I like you maybe I don't like oh maybe I like you maybe I don't like oh maybe I like you maybe I don't So you can't reject me if I haven't So you can't reject me if I haven't So you can't reject me if I haven't actually signaled that I like you. actually signaled that I like you. actually signaled that I like you. >> But I feel like this has been going on a >> But I feel like this has been going on a >> But I feel like this has been going on a really long time. I had a moment when I really long time. I had a moment when I really long time. I had a moment when I was teaching a class probably was teaching a class probably was teaching a class probably >> eight years ago. And this was when apps >> eight years ago. And this was when apps >> eight years ago. And this was when apps were, you know, they were I wouldn't say were, you know, they were I wouldn't say were, you know, they were I wouldn't say the dominant form of find dating apps of the dominant form of find dating apps of the dominant form of find dating apps of finding people, but they had become much finding people, but they had become much finding people, but they had become much more prevalent than they used to be. And more prevalent than they used to be. And more prevalent than they used to be. And there was this guy who I really liked in there was this guy who I really liked in there was this guy who I really liked in class as a student. I had him for a class as a student. I had him for a class as a student. I had him for a couple courses and he had gotten a text couple courses and he had gotten a text couple courses and he had gotten a text from a girl and he didn't know how to from a girl and he didn't know how to from a girl and he didn't know how to respond. And there were in class respond. And there were in class respond. And there were in class probably 15 people giving him advice on probably 15 people giving him advice on probably 15 people giving him advice on what to text back what to text back what to text back at once. at once. at once. And my reaction was in my head was, "Oh And my reaction was in my head was, "Oh And my reaction was in my head was, "Oh no, like this isn't they're debating no, like this isn't they're debating no, like this isn't they're debating things that are so basic. things that are so basic. things that are so basic. >> They're in their head so much. They >> They're in their head so much. They >> They're in their head so much. They don't have a chance. These poor kids." don't have a chance. These poor kids." don't have a chance. These poor kids." And so I think we have to get back to And so I think we have to get back to And so I think we have to get back to the basics in many ways. And it's very the basics in many ways. And it's very the basics in many ways. And it's very difficult on social media. It's very difficult on social media. It's very difficult on social media. It's very difficult through text because you don't difficult through text because you don't difficult through text because you don't have that back and forth. If I tell you have that back and forth. If I tell you have that back and forth. If I tell you a joke in person, I tease you a little a joke in person, I tease you a little a joke in person, I tease you a little bit. That's much more obvious. But if I bit. That's much more obvious. But if I bit. That's much more obvious. But if I send a text, it's like, was he being send a text, it's like, was he being send a text, it's like, was he being sarcastic? sarcastic? sarcastic? >> You know, was that what did he mean by >> You know, was that what did he mean by >> You know, was that what did he mean by that? And that those were all the that? And that those were all the that? And that those were all the questions that they were debating back questions that they were debating back questions that they were debating back and forth like how do I respond to that? and forth like how do I respond to that? and forth like how do I respond to that? >> So part of it is just the limitations in >> So part of it is just the limitations in >> So part of it is just the limitations in the way we communicate. the way we communicate. the way we communicate. 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You can sign up for a $1 per month trial period sign up for a $1 per month trial period sign up for a $1 per month trial period by going to the link in the description by going to the link in the description by going to the link in the description below or heading to below or heading to below or heading to shopify.com/modernwisdom shopify.com/modernwisdom shopify.com/modernwisdom all lowercase. That's all lowercase. That's all lowercase. That's shopify.com/modernwisdom shopify.com/modernwisdom shopify.com/modernwisdom to upgrade your selling today. to upgrade your selling today. to upgrade your selling today. Crowdsourcing or crowdfunding your texts Crowdsourcing or crowdfunding your texts Crowdsourcing or crowdfunding your texts back to someone in a relationship. I back to someone in a relationship. I back to someone in a relationship. I mean, now people just use chatbt. You've mean, now people just use chatbt. You've mean, now people just use chatbt. You've seen that South Park episode, right? seen that South Park episode, right? seen that South Park episode, right? Where all of the guys outsource their Where all of the guys outsource their Where all of the guys outsource their texts to their girlfriends to chatt and texts to their girlfriends to chatt and texts to their girlfriends to chatt and all of their girlfriends are having such all of their girlfriends are having such all of their girlfriends are having such a lovely time and the guy's like, "How a lovely time and the guy's like, "How a lovely time and the guy's like, "How are you? How is she?" So, and then they are you? How is she?" So, and then they are you? How is she?" So, and then they realize that it's because everyone's realize that it's because everyone's realize that it's because everyone's [ __ ] outsourced it to an LLM. Uh, you [ __ ] outsourced it to an LLM. Uh, you [ __ ] outsourced it to an LLM. Uh, you mentioned uh people's outfits. What does mentioned uh people's outfits. What does mentioned uh people's outfits. What does science say about why women dress up? science say about why women dress up? science say about why women dress up? >> There's a there's a lot of back and >> There's a there's a lot of back and >> There's a there's a lot of back and forth about that and you know there's forth about that and you know there's forth about that and you know there's arguments from the evolutionary psych arguments from the evolutionary psych arguments from the evolutionary psych side, uh cultural psych, um maybe side, uh cultural psych, um maybe side, uh cultural psych, um maybe personality, you know, a variety of personality, you know, a variety of personality, you know, a variety of things. Uh things. Uh things. Uh all that to say, I don't think science all that to say, I don't think science all that to say, I don't think science says anything. I think people have says anything. I think people have says anything. I think people have theories. I think there's evidence in theories. I think there's evidence in theories. I think there's evidence in one way or another. But in in my one way or another. But in in my one way or another. But in in my opinion, the evidence that's most opinion, the evidence that's most opinion, the evidence that's most persuasive is that it depends and persuasive is that it depends and persuasive is that it depends and depends on the context. So in many depends on the context. So in many depends on the context. So in many cases, women dress up to impress each cases, women dress up to impress each cases, women dress up to impress each other more so than to impress men. And other more so than to impress men. And other more so than to impress men. And that seems counterintuitive because like that seems counterintuitive because like that seems counterintuitive because like why why would they do that? But there why why would they do that? But there why why would they do that? But there are a lot of reasons why you might want are a lot of reasons why you might want are a lot of reasons why you might want to do that. Women have a social to do that. Women have a social to do that. Women have a social hierarchy in the same way that men do. hierarchy in the same way that men do. hierarchy in the same way that men do. And they don't want their mate to get And they don't want their mate to get And they don't want their mate to get poached. And so you have to show not poached. And so you have to show not poached. And so you have to show not just the man that you're an attractive just the man that you're an attractive just the man that you're an attractive person. You have to show other women person. You have to show other women person. You have to show other women like don't mess with me, you're wasting like don't mess with me, you're wasting like don't mess with me, you're wasting your time. So personally, I find that your time. So personally, I find that your time. So personally, I find that explanation, that evidence to be pretty explanation, that evidence to be pretty explanation, that evidence to be pretty persuasive, but not everyone does. persuasive, but not everyone does. persuasive, but not everyone does. >> Yeah, it's an interesting one. I I mean, >> Yeah, it's an interesting one. I I mean, >> Yeah, it's an interesting one. I I mean, I've seen so many different studies. I've seen so many different studies. I've seen so many different studies. There was a a great one that I learned There was a a great one that I learned There was a a great one that I learned about from about from about from uh not Joyce Benninsson or Candace uh not Joyce Benninsson or Candace uh not Joyce Benninsson or Candace Blake. Uh, not Corey Clark, someone Blake. Uh, not Corey Clark, someone Blake. Uh, not Corey Clark, someone else. One of the one of the evolutionary else. One of the one of the evolutionary else. One of the one of the evolutionary psychology ladies taught me this great psychology ladies taught me this great psychology ladies taught me this great study where they had a protagonist, this study where they had a protagonist, this study where they had a protagonist, this uh what what do they call the the person uh what what do they call the the person uh what what do they call the the person that's the actor in a study? What's it that's the actor in a study? What's it that's the actor in a study? What's it called? called? called? >> Typically, >> Typically, >> Typically, I don't know. Actually, I usually use I don't know. Actually, I usually use I don't know. Actually, I usually use target. I use target and actor target. I use target and actor target. I use target and actor personally. personally. personally. >> Okay. Well, whoever that is, uh, one >> Okay. Well, whoever that is, uh, one >> Okay. Well, whoever that is, uh, one version of the study, same same woman version of the study, same same woman version of the study, same same woman twice. One version of the study, uh, twice. One version of the study, uh, twice. One version of the study, uh, she's wearing quite revealing clothing. she's wearing quite revealing clothing. she's wearing quite revealing clothing. second version of the study. She's second version of the study. She's second version of the study. She's wearing pretty covered up clothing and wearing pretty covered up clothing and wearing pretty covered up clothing and two people who think they're about to go two people who think they're about to go two people who think they're about to go into the study are waiting outside. The into the study are waiting outside. The into the study are waiting outside. The classic it's begun before you think it's classic it's begun before you think it's classic it's begun before you think it's begun thing. The protagonist goes up, begun thing. The protagonist goes up, begun thing. The protagonist goes up, asks them for directions and then they asks them for directions and then they asks them for directions and then they did uh vocal analysis sort of micro did uh vocal analysis sort of micro did uh vocal analysis sort of micro expression tracking, body language expression tracking, body language expression tracking, body language changes and stuff. And the same woman in changes and stuff. And the same woman in changes and stuff. And the same woman in much more conservative clothing that much more conservative clothing that much more conservative clothing that sort of quite kind and pass her on the sort of quite kind and pass her on the sort of quite kind and pass her on the way or just say whatever. I don't think way or just say whatever. I don't think way or just say whatever. I don't think they know where they need to to send her they know where they need to to send her they know where they need to to send her in any case. And then in the other in any case. And then in the other in any case. And then in the other version of it, uh there's sort of this version of it, uh there's sort of this version of it, uh there's sort of this like this sort of look up and down and like this sort of look up and down and like this sort of look up and down and then did you see what she was? No, no, then did you see what she was? No, no, then did you see what she was? No, no, no, no. Um so I don't think I mean guys no, no. Um so I don't think I mean guys no, no. Um so I don't think I mean guys might notice the fact that she was more might notice the fact that she was more might notice the fact that she was more revealing, but I don't think that it revealing, but I don't think that it revealing, but I don't think that it would be from the clothes. I don't think would be from the clothes. I don't think would be from the clothes. I don't think that they're paying as much attention. I that they're paying as much attention. I that they're paying as much attention. I think this is the thing that think this is the thing that think this is the thing that >> women don't understand about what guys >> women don't understand about what guys >> women don't understand about what guys notice about women. I mean, there was notice about women. I mean, there was notice about women. I mean, there was that great study you you talked about. that great study you you talked about. that great study you you talked about. What was that study to do with Armani What was that study to do with Armani What was that study to do with Armani suits? suits? suits? >> Yeah. is a classic classic study in um >> Yeah. is a classic classic study in um >> Yeah. is a classic classic study in um just this idea that there is competition just this idea that there is competition just this idea that there is competition am intraexual competition competition am intraexual competition competition am intraexual competition competition among women and between each other. And among women and between each other. And among women and between each other. And so the study shows that if you put guys so the study shows that if you put guys so the study shows that if you put guys in Armani suits versus Burger King in Armani suits versus Burger King in Armani suits versus Burger King attire wear the uniform whatever and you attire wear the uniform whatever and you attire wear the uniform whatever and you ask women same guy. So, like you have ask women same guy. So, like you have ask women same guy. So, like you have you wearing Burger King and you have you you wearing Burger King and you have you you wearing Burger King and you have you wearing Armani suits and you ask women wearing Armani suits and you ask women wearing Armani suits and you ask women which version of Chris now and you which version of Chris now and you which version of Chris now and you wouldn't say it that way. It's like do wouldn't say it that way. It's like do wouldn't say it that way. It's like do you think Chris is attractive? And the you think Chris is attractive? And the you think Chris is attractive? And the Armani suit Chris people like yeah and Armani suit Chris people like yeah and Armani suit Chris people like yeah and in the Burger King uniform people are in the Burger King uniform people are in the Burger King uniform people are like women are like um no same guy just like women are like um no same guy just like women are like um no same guy just different clothes. Are you know is he different clothes. Are you know is he different clothes. Are you know is he attractive? Is he powerful? Is he attractive? Is he powerful? Is he attractive? Is he powerful? Is he somebody you'd want to date and mate somebody you'd want to date and mate somebody you'd want to date and mate with? Not really. No. But if you do that with? Not really. No. But if you do that with? Not really. No. But if you do that with women, the guys are like, "Yeah, with women, the guys are like, "Yeah, with women, the guys are like, "Yeah, she's hot." Doesn't matter what she's she's hot." Doesn't matter what she's she's hot." Doesn't matter what she's wearing, whether it's the powerful, you wearing, whether it's the powerful, you wearing, whether it's the powerful, you know, business attire, whether it's the know, business attire, whether it's the know, business attire, whether it's the Burger King uniform. And this study has Burger King uniform. And this study has Burger King uniform. And this study has been replicated many, many times. First, been replicated many, many times. First, been replicated many, many times. First, first kind of discussed in the '9s, and first kind of discussed in the '9s, and first kind of discussed in the '9s, and it has continued to, you know, be it has continued to, you know, be it has continued to, you know, be investigated in many, many different investigated in many, many different investigated in many, many different ways. And and so I look at that and I ways. And and so I look at that and I ways. And and so I look at that and I talk about that and I say, "Yeah, so talk about that and I say, "Yeah, so talk about that and I say, "Yeah, so women are pigs just like men." You know, women are pigs just like men." You know, women are pigs just like men." You know, I mean, it's very like we have our own I mean, it's very like we have our own I mean, it's very like we have our own domains of being a pig. domains of being a pig. domains of being a pig. >> Yeah. They're slightly they're slightly >> Yeah. They're slightly they're slightly >> Yeah. They're slightly they're slightly different and they're pointed in different and they're pointed in different and they're pointed in different directions. Yeah. Uh I think different directions. Yeah. Uh I think different directions. Yeah. Uh I think it's it's it's it's it's it's kind of tragic in some ways that uh the kind of tragic in some ways that uh the kind of tragic in some ways that uh the amount of effort that women go through amount of effort that women go through amount of effort that women go through thinking that there is some sort of male thinking that there is some sort of male thinking that there is some sort of male judge or tyrant that's kind this judge or tyrant that's kind this judge or tyrant that's kind this panopticon [ __ ] godlike figure panopticon [ __ ] godlike figure panopticon [ __ ] godlike figure looking over them to judge their beauty looking over them to judge their beauty looking over them to judge their beauty standards. when the call is very much standards. when the call is very much standards. when the call is very much coming from inside of the house and if coming from inside of the house and if coming from inside of the house and if if all women didn't like the beauty if all women didn't like the beauty if all women didn't like the beauty standards that were being enforced, I standards that were being enforced, I standards that were being enforced, I feel like if they were somehow able to feel like if they were somehow able to feel like if they were somehow able to do uh God's eye coordination and all do uh God's eye coordination and all do uh God's eye coordination and all say, "Okay, well, why don't we all try say, "Okay, well, why don't we all try say, "Okay, well, why don't we all try and have less long hair and less long and have less long hair and less long and have less long hair and less long nails and less high heels and less tan nails and less high heels and less tan nails and less high heels and less tan and all the rest of this stuff? We can and all the rest of this stuff? We can and all the rest of this stuff? We can kind of bring the market down together kind of bring the market down together kind of bring the market down together and guys are probably not going to and guys are probably not going to and guys are probably not going to [ __ ] notice." Now, when's the last [ __ ] notice." Now, when's the last [ __ ] notice." Now, when's the last time you heard a guy say, "Did you see time you heard a guy say, "Did you see time you heard a guy say, "Did you see her nails?" her nails?" her nails?" >> Dude, it's it is it is wild. I mean, >> Dude, it's it is it is wild. I mean, >> Dude, it's it is it is wild. I mean, that's the other thing that jewelry is a that's the other thing that jewelry is a that's the other thing that jewelry is a a a sort of area of attire that most a a sort of area of attire that most a a sort of area of attire that most guys I don't think really pay any guys I don't think really pay any guys I don't think really pay any attention to. The difference between a attention to. The difference between a attention to. The difference between a $50 bag and a $10,000 Birkin or a Louis $50 bag and a $10,000 Birkin or a Louis $50 bag and a $10,000 Birkin or a Louis Vuitton bag or something. The difference Vuitton bag or something. The difference Vuitton bag or something. The difference between this brand of shoes from the between this brand of shoes from the between this brand of shoes from the high street and this brand of shoes high street and this brand of shoes high street and this brand of shoes that's $1,000. We have no idea. Who do that's $1,000. We have no idea. Who do that's $1,000. We have no idea. Who do you who do you think that this is for? you who do you think that this is for? you who do you think that this is for? But the same thing, the same exact But the same thing, the same exact But the same thing, the same exact [ __ ] dynamic is true. Guys, how much [ __ ] dynamic is true. Guys, how much [ __ ] dynamic is true. Guys, how much do you think that woman knows about the do you think that woman knows about the do you think that woman knows about the specific Sporting Cup edition Ricaro specific Sporting Cup edition Ricaro specific Sporting Cup edition Ricaro seats that you've got inside of your BMW seats that you've got inside of your BMW seats that you've got inside of your BMW M3? like but this is a limited edition M3? like but this is a limited edition M3? like but this is a limited edition because it's got the the twin tip because it's got the the twin tip because it's got the the twin tip exhaust at the back and they're the exhaust at the back and they're the exhaust at the back and they're the black and then there's the Alcantra seat black and then there's the Alcantra seat black and then there's the Alcantra seat in the middle and it's actually got the in the middle and it's actually got the in the middle and it's actually got the iDrive with the other like no not only iDrive with the other like no not only iDrive with the other like no not only does she not know she doesn't understand does she not know she doesn't understand does she not know she doesn't understand or care or care or care >> right. Yeah. And it's >> right. Yeah. And it's >> right. Yeah. And it's again it's it's about allocation of your again it's it's about allocation of your again it's it's about allocation of your effort, not this amplification of that effort, not this amplification of that effort, not this amplification of that effort, you know, and whether it's like, effort, you know, and whether it's like, effort, you know, and whether it's like, hey, I'm going to tweak my car so it's a hey, I'm going to tweak my car so it's a hey, I'm going to tweak my car so it's a perfect car that will finally attract perfect car that will finally attract perfect car that will finally attract the love of my life. That's that's the love of my life. That's that's the love of my life. That's that's stupid, you know. That's that's not stupid, you know. That's that's not stupid, you know. That's that's not going to work. So, where can you put going to work. So, where can you put going to work. So, where can you put that effort? Instead, literally go talk that effort? Instead, literally go talk that effort? Instead, literally go talk to a woman. That would be step one. Direction over speed, dude. Right. Direction over speed, dude. Right. >> Direction over speed. Uh is is a man >> Direction over speed. Uh is is a man >> Direction over speed. Uh is is a man saying uh you're too good for me or saying uh you're too good for me or saying uh you're too good for me or you're out of my league. Is that a red you're out of my league. Is that a red you're out of my league. Is that a red flag? I saw someone saying that that's a flag? I saw someone saying that that's a flag? I saw someone saying that that's a red flag. I don't think so. I mean, red flag. I don't think so. I mean, red flag. I don't think so. I mean, well, let me let me back that up. Can it well, let me let me back that up. Can it well, let me let me back that up. Can it be? Yes, but not out of context. You be? Yes, but not out of context. You be? Yes, but not out of context. You have to consider why is he saying that? have to consider why is he saying that? have to consider why is he saying that? So, if you give that as blanket advice, So, if you give that as blanket advice, So, if you give that as blanket advice, no, that that is not a red flag. It no, that that is not a red flag. It no, that that is not a red flag. It could be it could be a green flag. You could be it could be a green flag. You could be it could be a green flag. You know, it could indicate humility. But know, it could indicate humility. But know, it could indicate humility. But the reality there is we don't have more the reality there is we don't have more the reality there is we don't have more information about why did that guy say information about why did that guy say information about why did that guy say it? And so this is about investment it? And so this is about investment it? And so this is about investment rather than, you know, creating these rather than, you know, creating these rather than, you know, creating these rules. People want it fast. They want to rules. People want it fast. They want to rules. People want it fast. They want to be like, okay, this guy said this thing, be like, okay, this guy said this thing, be like, okay, this guy said this thing, therefore he's a good guy. Yeah. That's therefore he's a good guy. Yeah. That's therefore he's a good guy. Yeah. That's that's like a magic spell. And that is that's like a magic spell. And that is that's like a magic spell. And that is not how relationships are built. They, not how relationships are built. They, not how relationships are built. They, you know, they're built over time. you know, they're built over time. you know, they're built over time. They're built by getting to know people. They're built by getting to know people. They're built by getting to know people. And there's just no way of I mean And there's just no way of I mean And there's just no way of I mean there are a few things people could say there are a few things people could say there are a few things people could say that would be a red flag like hey I'm that would be a red flag like hey I'm that would be a red flag like hey I'm going to murder you. going to murder you. going to murder you. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But even then I just said it and that's >> But even then I just said it and that's >> But even then I just said it and that's not out you know out of context maybe not out you know out of context maybe not out you know out of context maybe now you know you clip this and and it's now you know you clip this and and it's now you know you clip this and and it's like oh we like oh we like oh we >> Dr. Max Butterfield is after he's after >> Dr. Max Butterfield is after he's after >> Dr. Max Butterfield is after he's after Chris. This is this is big trouble here. Chris. This is this is big trouble here. Chris. This is this is big trouble here. >> But you know that's why context is so >> But you know that's why context is so >> But you know that's why context is so important. important. important. >> There's no shortcuts. I think this is >> There's no shortcuts. I think this is >> There's no shortcuts. I think this is sort of much of the meta theme of what sort of much of the meta theme of what sort of much of the meta theme of what you're doing with your content, which is you're doing with your content, which is you're doing with your content, which is to say to say to say if we take very short if we take very short if we take very short uh out of context pieces of relationship uh out of context pieces of relationship uh out of context pieces of relationship situation and then apply a universal situation and then apply a universal situation and then apply a universal rule from that, we end up getting in all rule from that, we end up getting in all rule from that, we end up getting in all sorts of trouble. It's so super [ __ ] sorts of trouble. It's so super [ __ ] sorts of trouble. It's so super [ __ ] squirrely because squirrely because squirrely because Yeah. I mean, you're too good for me is Yeah. I mean, you're too good for me is Yeah. I mean, you're too good for me is if said by a guy who's quite high status if said by a guy who's quite high status if said by a guy who's quite high status and self assured and self assured and self assured actually quite a nice compliment and it actually quite a nice compliment and it actually quite a nice compliment and it can be done in such a cute, flirty way, can be done in such a cute, flirty way, can be done in such a cute, flirty way, >> right? You're just too good for me. How >> right? You're just too good for me. How >> right? You're just too good for me. How how have I ended up with a girl like how have I ended up with a girl like how have I ended up with a girl like you? You know, that's that's a nice you? You know, that's that's a nice you? You know, that's that's a nice thing to hear, especially if it's done thing to hear, especially if it's done thing to hear, especially if it's done from a place of uh not sort of pliable from a place of uh not sort of pliable from a place of uh not sort of pliable sing, but it's it's it's genuinely done sing, but it's it's it's genuinely done sing, but it's it's it's genuinely done out of a look. And we both know that out of a look. And we both know that out of a look. And we both know that we're good for each other, but that's we're good for each other, but that's we're good for each other, but that's cool. cool. cool. >> And to to look at your date as she walks >> And to to look at your date as she walks >> And to to look at your date as she walks through, even on the third date, and you through, even on the third date, and you through, even on the third date, and you go, "Dude, you are so out of my league. go, "Dude, you are so out of my league. go, "Dude, you are so out of my league. Holy shit." Like, that's that's cool. I Holy shit." Like, that's that's cool. I Holy shit." Like, that's that's cool. I I think that's good. I think that's good. I think that's good. >> Right. That's the romcom writing right >> Right. That's the romcom writing right >> Right. That's the romcom writing right there. there. there. >> Exactly. So, well, okay. Are there >> Exactly. So, well, okay. Are there >> Exactly. So, well, okay. Are there things such things as real red flags in things such things as real red flags in things such things as real red flags in beyond the obvious [ __ ] of like I'm beyond the obvious [ __ ] of like I'm beyond the obvious [ __ ] of like I'm going to eat you and and bury your bones going to eat you and and bury your bones going to eat you and and bury your bones in the guard. What about red flags that in the guard. What about red flags that in the guard. What about red flags that people should pay attention to? I think people should pay attention to? I think people should pay attention to? I think there are certainly some, you know, and there are certainly some, you know, and there are certainly some, you know, and big ones are maybe not what's being big ones are maybe not what's being big ones are maybe not what's being said. Uh they could be what's being said. Uh they could be what's being said. Uh they could be what's being done. You know, behavior matters a lot done. You know, behavior matters a lot done. You know, behavior matters a lot more than what people say because more than what people say because more than what people say because people, let me back it up and say people, let me back it up and say people, let me back it up and say there's a behavior intention gap. And so there's a behavior intention gap. And so there's a behavior intention gap. And so I might want to do a lot of really nice I might want to do a lot of really nice I might want to do a lot of really nice things for someone, but if I never do things for someone, but if I never do things for someone, but if I never do that, okay, that's a red flag. And that, okay, that's a red flag. And that, okay, that's a red flag. And that's a pattern over time is do I that's a pattern over time is do I that's a pattern over time is do I follow through or not? And okay, that follow through or not? And okay, that follow through or not? And okay, that that's important. An inability to that's important. An inability to that's important. An inability to regulate emotions. You know, we talked regulate emotions. You know, we talked regulate emotions. You know, we talked about this already. That's a major red about this already. That's a major red about this already. That's a major red flag. If you see these outbursts of flag. If you see these outbursts of flag. If you see these outbursts of anger, even if it's just minor ones anger, even if it's just minor ones anger, even if it's just minor ones leaking out, leaking out, leaking out, >> you know, something goes wrong, you >> you know, something goes wrong, you >> you know, something goes wrong, you punch a wall. punch a wall. punch a wall. >> Yeah, that's that's worth looking at. >> Yeah, that's that's worth looking at. >> Yeah, that's that's worth looking at. And it's not I have punched a wall when And it's not I have punched a wall when And it's not I have punched a wall when I was 13, you know, and so like, was I was 13, you know, and so like, was I was 13, you know, and so like, was that a red flag back then? Yeah. I that a red flag back then? Yeah. I that a red flag back then? Yeah. I wasn't fully emotionally developed. wasn't fully emotionally developed. wasn't fully emotionally developed. >> People shouldn't have dated you when you >> People shouldn't have dated you when you >> People shouldn't have dated you when you were 13, were 13, were 13, >> right? And they didn't, let me tell you. >> right? And they didn't, let me tell you. >> right? And they didn't, let me tell you. So, So, So, >> tell Epstein, right? Yeah. You know, and >> tell Epstein, right? Yeah. You know, and >> tell Epstein, right? Yeah. You know, and that's a red flag. Like, what are people that's a red flag. Like, what are people that's a red flag. Like, what are people doing doing doing under the cover of secrecy? You know, if under the cover of secrecy? You know, if under the cover of secrecy? You know, if if what are they doing? And if you find if what are they doing? And if you find if what are they doing? And if you find out that again, they're what they say out that again, they're what they say out that again, they're what they say they're doing is different from what they're doing is different from what they're doing is different from what they're actually doing, that that's they're actually doing, that that's they're actually doing, that that's worth looking at. So, ultimately for me, worth looking at. So, ultimately for me, worth looking at. So, ultimately for me, I guess the the short answer to your I guess the the short answer to your I guess the the short answer to your question is it's about consistency and question is it's about consistency and question is it's about consistency and it's about regulation. So, do actions it's about regulation. So, do actions it's about regulation. So, do actions match up with intentions? And are they a match up with intentions? And are they a match up with intentions? And are they a calm person? And do they be can they do calm person? And do they be can they do calm person? And do they be can they do they have the the ability to become calm they have the the ability to become calm they have the the ability to become calm when they get disregulated? Because we when they get disregulated? Because we when they get disregulated? Because we all get disregulated. all get disregulated. all get disregulated. >> Exactly. I was going that's exactly what >> Exactly. I was going that's exactly what >> Exactly. I was going that's exactly what I was going to say that not everybody is I was going to say that not everybody is I was going to say that not everybody is calm. And so you don't necessarily want calm. And so you don't necessarily want calm. And so you don't necessarily want somebody who is always calm. It's somebody who is always calm. It's somebody who is always calm. It's actually kind of cool to be someone actually kind of cool to be someone actually kind of cool to be someone who's excitable and and and maybe who's excitable and and and maybe who's excitable and and and maybe actually there's a useful time for them actually there's a useful time for them actually there's a useful time for them to get angry especially if it's on your to get angry especially if it's on your to get angry especially if it's on your behalf. But it's if Yeah. If you're late behalf. But it's if Yeah. If you're late behalf. But it's if Yeah. If you're late for the flight and you just make it, for the flight and you just make it, for the flight and you just make it, does that ruin the entire holiday, does that ruin the entire holiday, does that ruin the entire holiday, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Or by the time that the flight's landed, >> Or by the time that the flight's landed, >> Or by the time that the flight's landed, has everybody been able to sort of has everybody been able to sort of has everybody been able to sort of burble their emotions back down? burble their emotions back down? burble their emotions back down? >> Right. Exactly. >> Right. Exactly. >> Right. Exactly. >> In other news, this episode is brought >> In other news, this episode is brought >> In other news, this episode is brought to you by RP Strength. This training app to you by RP Strength. This training app to you by RP Strength. This training app has made a huge impact on my gains and has made a huge impact on my gains and has made a huge impact on my gains and enjoyment in the gym over the last two enjoyment in the gym over the last two enjoyment in the gym over the last two years now. It's designed by Dr. Mike years now. It's designed by Dr. Mike years now. It's designed by Dr. Mike Israel and comes with over 45 pre-made Israel and comes with over 45 pre-made Israel and comes with over 45 pre-made training programs, 250 technique videos, training programs, 250 technique videos, training programs, 250 technique videos, takes all of the guesswork out of takes all of the guesswork out of takes all of the guesswork out of crafting the ideal lifting routine by crafting the ideal lifting routine by crafting the ideal lifting routine by literally spoon feeding you a literally spoon feeding you a literally spoon feeding you a step-by-step plan for every workout. It step-by-step plan for every workout. 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The um I mean that's from David Yeah. The um I mean that's from David Bus. It's the number one trait that he Bus. It's the number one trait that he Bus. It's the number one trait that he says to look for in a partner, which is says to look for in a partner, which is says to look for in a partner, which is uh emotional stability. How long after uh emotional stability. How long after uh emotional stability. How long after some sort of emotional perturbment that some sort of emotional perturbment that some sort of emotional perturbment that takes you away from baseline does it takes you away from baseline does it takes you away from baseline does it take your partner to get back to take your partner to get back to take your partner to get back to baseline? And the shorter that that baseline? And the shorter that that baseline? And the shorter that that window is, the better. window is, the better. window is, the better. >> And what and to give credit where credit >> And what and to give credit where credit >> And what and to give credit where credit is due, I probably got that from David. is due, I probably got that from David. is due, I probably got that from David. David is like my research grandpa. So he David is like my research grandpa. So he David is like my research grandpa. So he had a student Sarah Hill who was my PhD. had a student Sarah Hill who was my PhD. had a student Sarah Hill who was my PhD. >> Absolutely. No way. You studied under >> Absolutely. No way. You studied under >> Absolutely. No way. You studied under Sarah. Sarah. Sarah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Holy [ __ ] >> Holy [ __ ] >> Holy [ __ ] >> Yeah. So, you know, so I spoke at >> Yeah. So, you know, so I spoke at >> Yeah. So, you know, so I spoke at classic lineage. I spoke at her hb classic lineage. I spoke at her hb classic lineage. I spoke at her hb symposium two years ago. symposium two years ago. symposium two years ago. >> Did you? >> Did you? >> Did you? >> Yep. Yeah. I was by far the least >> Yep. Yeah. I was by far the least >> Yep. Yeah. I was by far the least credentialed person in the room, the credentialed person in the room, the credentialed person in the room, the only person in the room with a master's only person in the room with a master's only person in the room with a master's level education surrounded by PhD, level education surrounded by PhD, level education surrounded by PhD, double PhD, postdoc doctorate. [ __ ] double PhD, postdoc doctorate. [ __ ] double PhD, postdoc doctorate. [ __ ] Don Tubi was there. This was before uh Don Tubi was there. This was before uh Don Tubi was there. This was before uh John Tubi passed away. So [ __ ] John John Tubi passed away. So [ __ ] John John Tubi passed away. So [ __ ] John Tubi sat in the front row as I'm Tubi sat in the front row as I'm Tubi sat in the front row as I'm speaking my 15minute. speaking my 15minute. speaking my 15minute. >> That's when you need the beta blockers. >> That's when you need the beta blockers. >> That's when you need the beta blockers. Yeah, that I I wanted to feel all of Yeah, that I I wanted to feel all of Yeah, that I I wanted to feel all of that. That was it was fantastic. It was that. That was it was fantastic. It was that. That was it was fantastic. It was in Palm Springs. It was this great in Palm Springs. It was this great in Palm Springs. It was this great place. So, um yeah, Sarah's wonderful. place. So, um yeah, Sarah's wonderful. place. So, um yeah, Sarah's wonderful. She told me about another one uh this She told me about another one uh this She told me about another one uh this great study that was done. It was you'll great study that was done. It was you'll great study that was done. It was you'll probably be familiar with it probably be familiar with it probably be familiar with it >> to do with ovulatory shift hypothesis or >> to do with ovulatory shift hypothesis or >> to do with ovulatory shift hypothesis or maybe it was Christina Duranti. It's one maybe it was Christina Duranti. It's one maybe it was Christina Duranti. It's one of the two. And um of the two. And um of the two. And um >> they had the same guy dressed in leather >> they had the same guy dressed in leather >> they had the same guy dressed in leather jacket, smoking, super cool with his jacket, smoking, super cool with his jacket, smoking, super cool with his hair done or another version where he hair done or another version where he hair done or another version where he was much more nerdy and he was wearing a was much more nerdy and he was wearing a was much more nerdy and he was wearing a sort of sweater vest type thing almost sort of sweater vest type thing almost sort of sweater vest type thing almost like a Big Bang Theory caricature. like a Big Bang Theory caricature. like a Big Bang Theory caricature. >> And in both iterations of the study, >> And in both iterations of the study, >> And in both iterations of the study, women went in one, it's the same guy, women went in one, it's the same guy, women went in one, it's the same guy, right? The absolute same guy. right? The absolute same guy. right? The absolute same guy. Women go in uh and see the first guy, Women go in uh and see the first guy, Women go in uh and see the first guy, women go in and see the second guy, but women go in and see the second guy, but women go in and see the second guy, but they're told that they're twins. they're told that they're twins. they're told that they're twins. >> So, they don't know that it's the same >> So, they don't know that it's the same >> So, they don't know that it's the same dude both times, but they're told that dude both times, but they're told that dude both times, but they're told that they're twins. So, there's two different they're twins. So, there's two different they're twins. So, there's two different versions. I love it. versions. I love it. versions. I love it. >> And um they go in and they have a >> And um they go in and they have a >> And um they go in and they have a conversation and they're just told to conversation and they're just told to conversation and they're just told to sort of talk about sort of play out what sort of talk about sort of play out what sort of talk about sort of play out what dating might be like, what the sort of dating might be like, what the sort of dating might be like, what the sort of meeting would be. And they're asking the meeting would be. And they're asking the meeting would be. And they're asking the dude with the cigarette and he's like, dude with the cigarette and he's like, dude with the cigarette and he's like, you know, like maybe we could go out or you know, like maybe we could go out or you know, like maybe we could go out or you know, maybe not. I don't, you know, you know, maybe not. I don't, you know, you know, maybe not. I don't, you know, like it would be cool or something like like it would be cool or something like like it would be cool or something like maybe, you know, maybe I'd see you, maybe, you know, maybe I'd see you, maybe, you know, maybe I'd see you, maybe you're not. Like, I got my maybe you're not. Like, I got my maybe you're not. Like, I got my motorbike outside, whatever the [ __ ] motorbike outside, whatever the [ __ ] motorbike outside, whatever the [ __ ] Um, and then with the other guy, he's Um, and then with the other guy, he's Um, and then with the other guy, he's much more pliable and all the rest of much more pliable and all the rest of much more pliable and all the rest of it. And they're asked, they track the it. And they're asked, they track the it. And they're asked, they track the hormone cycles. Where are they during hormone cycles. Where are they during hormone cycles. Where are they during the ovulatory window? The women who are the ovulatory window? The women who are the ovulatory window? The women who are ovulating see the guy that's detached, ovulating see the guy that's detached, ovulating see the guy that's detached, smoking, smoking, smoking, obviously signaling sort of more obviously signaling sort of more obviously signaling sort of more classically masculine traits, but is the classically masculine traits, but is the classically masculine traits, but is the same [ __ ] dude as the other one. same [ __ ] dude as the other one. same [ __ ] dude as the other one. Even lesbians rate him as a better Even lesbians rate him as a better Even lesbians rate him as a better father. They ask questions. Who do you father. They ask questions. Who do you father. They ask questions. Who do you think would be a more invested father? think would be a more invested father? think would be a more invested father? Who do you think would be a better Who do you think would be a better Who do you think would be a better father? And uh that I mean I know father? And uh that I mean I know father? And uh that I mean I know ovulatory shifts going through this. Is ovulatory shifts going through this. Is ovulatory shifts going through this. Is it true? Is it not? Replication crisis it true? Is it not? Replication crisis it true? Is it not? Replication crisis says no. And then all of my friends say says no. And then all of my friends say says no. And then all of my friends say yes. And I kind of want to back them. yes. And I kind of want to back them. yes. And I kind of want to back them. But I this will come out I think in the But I this will come out I think in the But I this will come out I think in the wash eventually. Um but I [ __ ] that wash eventually. Um but I [ __ ] that wash eventually. Um but I [ __ ] that stuff is so good. What was that one stuff is so good. What was that one stuff is so good. What was that one about um women were more likely to vote about um women were more likely to vote about um women were more likely to vote for uh Obama over Romney when they were for uh Obama over Romney when they were for uh Obama over Romney when they were ovulating because Obama is evidently way ovulating because Obama is evidently way ovulating because Obama is evidently way more chatty than Romney was. more chatty than Romney was. more chatty than Romney was. >> Brilliant, dude. Brilliant. >> Brilliant, dude. Brilliant. >> Brilliant, dude. Brilliant. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, and that's what I really like >> Well, and that's what I really like >> Well, and that's what I really like about uh the evolutionary approach is about uh the evolutionary approach is about uh the evolutionary approach is that, you know, whether these studies that, you know, whether these studies that, you know, whether these studies turn out to replicate or not, they drive turn out to replicate or not, they drive turn out to replicate or not, they drive very interesting hypotheses. And that very interesting hypotheses. And that very interesting hypotheses. And that for me is where I really I'm always for me is where I really I'm always for me is where I really I'm always trying to look for trying to look for trying to look for hypotheses that are supported by theory hypotheses that are supported by theory hypotheses that are supported by theory and evidence and so like what would you and evidence and so like what would you and evidence and so like what would you know what's the mechanism is the know what's the mechanism is the know what's the mechanism is the question that I have in my head all the question that I have in my head all the question that I have in my head all the time if that would work what would the time if that would work what would the time if that would work what would the mechanism be and how can we target that mechanism be and how can we target that mechanism be and how can we target that through you know through the research through you know through the research through you know through the research and psychology as a whole so you know my and psychology as a whole so you know my and psychology as a whole so you know my degree some of my degrees are in degree some of my degrees are in degree some of my degrees are in experimental psych but social psych is experimental psych but social psych is experimental psych but social psych is is truly my area and um social psych is is truly my area and um social psych is is truly my area and um social psych is kind of theory loose and what I mean by kind of theory loose and what I mean by kind of theory loose and what I mean by that is Many if you read a social psych that is Many if you read a social psych that is Many if you read a social psych textbook, it's like a butterfly textbook, it's like a butterfly textbook, it's like a butterfly collection. It's like, "Oh, look at that collection. It's like, "Oh, look at that collection. It's like, "Oh, look at that one. Oh, that one's got blue wings. Look one. Oh, that one's got blue wings. Look one. Oh, that one's got blue wings. Look a tiny one." And there's no unifying a tiny one." And there's no unifying a tiny one." And there's no unifying theory of social psychology. And that at theory of social psychology. And that at theory of social psychology. And that at its core is what evolutionary psych in its core is what evolutionary psych in its core is what evolutionary psych in this domain is trying to be is a this domain is trying to be is a this domain is trying to be is a unifying theory of why people, you know, unifying theory of why people, you know, unifying theory of why people, you know, relate the way that they do. And uh it relate the way that they do. And uh it relate the way that they do. And uh it does some things really well and then does some things really well and then does some things really well and then there are some things we haven't quite there are some things we haven't quite there are some things we haven't quite figured out yet. And that's why I I take figured out yet. And that's why I I take figured out yet. And that's why I I take an eclectic approach myself just because an eclectic approach myself just because an eclectic approach myself just because I think it offers it's more like a Swiss I think it offers it's more like a Swiss I think it offers it's more like a Swiss Army knife. Offers a little more utility Army knife. Offers a little more utility Army knife. Offers a little more utility rather than this butcher knife that's rather than this butcher knife that's rather than this butcher knife that's just kind of like chopping things. just kind of like chopping things. just kind of like chopping things. >> I think more I think more and more >> I think more I think more and more >> I think more I think more and more people are uh that's not to say I don't people are uh that's not to say I don't people are uh that's not to say I don't know because I've done pretty much every know because I've done pretty much every know because I've done pretty much every big AP researcher on the planet. Uh I'm big AP researcher on the planet. Uh I'm big AP researcher on the planet. Uh I'm sure there's some out there that haven't sure there's some out there that haven't sure there's some out there that haven't been on yet, but I'll get round to you. been on yet, but I'll get round to you. been on yet, but I'll get round to you. I've lots and lots and lots and lots of I've lots and lots and lots and lots of I've lots and lots and lots and lots of them and I'm yet to see somebody who is them and I'm yet to see somebody who is them and I'm yet to see somebody who is completely unwavering in their it is completely unwavering in their it is completely unwavering in their it is adaptation explanation or die but that's adaptation explanation or die but that's adaptation explanation or die but that's it. There usually is some give. But that it. There usually is some give. But that it. There usually is some give. But that being said there's people like Candace being said there's people like Candace being said there's people like Candace Blake or Mac and Murphy who sort of Blake or Mac and Murphy who sort of Blake or Mac and Murphy who sort of human behavioral ecology and that sort human behavioral ecology and that sort human behavioral ecology and that sort of trying to couch it in a broader sense of trying to couch it in a broader sense of trying to couch it in a broader sense of what's happening in the local of what's happening in the local of what's happening in the local environment right now and how are we environment right now and how are we environment right now and how are we adapting to that. There's that really adapting to that. There's that really adapting to that. There's that really great uh study around the environmental great uh study around the environmental great uh study around the environmental security hypothesis. Have you seen this security hypothesis. Have you seen this security hypothesis. Have you seen this one? one? one? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So that the men prefer bigger women when >> So that the men prefer bigger women when >> So that the men prefer bigger women when the economy is doing badly and men the economy is doing badly and men the economy is doing badly and men prefer thinner women when the economy is prefer thinner women when the economy is prefer thinner women when the economy is doing well because doing well because doing well because >> they know where the food is. >> they know where the food is. >> they know where the food is. >> Correct. Correct. Correct. Yeah. And >> Correct. Correct. Correct. Yeah. And >> Correct. Correct. Correct. Yeah. And they did the study on uh students in the they did the study on uh students in the they did the study on uh students in the mess hall or whatever of their halls of mess hall or whatever of their halls of mess hall or whatever of their halls of residence and people before they'd eaten residence and people before they'd eaten residence and people before they'd eaten wanted the bigger women and people after wanted the bigger women and people after wanted the bigger women and people after they'd eaten wanted the thinner women. they'd eaten wanted the thinner women. they'd eaten wanted the thinner women. And you can track this. you could do a a And you can track this. you could do a a And you can track this. you could do a a tracking of the state of the economy and tracking of the state of the economy and tracking of the state of the economy and the pinup women of the era and it's it's the pinup women of the era and it's it's the pinup women of the era and it's it's crossed over which is pretty crossed over which is pretty crossed over which is pretty interesting. So, I like that. Um uh interesting. So, I like that. Um uh interesting. So, I like that. Um uh there's a few I get a little bit there's a few I get a little bit there's a few I get a little bit squirrely with some of the relationship squirrely with some of the relationship squirrely with some of the relationship science stuff, it's nice, but it seems science stuff, it's nice, but it seems science stuff, it's nice, but it seems to have less explanatory depth. But the to have less explanatory depth. But the to have less explanatory depth. But the social psych stuff, you know, Rob social psych stuff, you know, Rob social psych stuff, you know, Rob Henderson is has got some of that, a ton Henderson is has got some of that, a ton Henderson is has got some of that, a ton of that in his lineage. So, are you of that in his lineage. So, are you of that in his lineage. So, are you familiar with Tai Shiro's work? Did you familiar with Tai Shiro's work? Did you familiar with Tai Shiro's work? Did you ever come across his stuff? ever come across his stuff? ever come across his stuff? >> Some he has these three traits. I'd be >> Some he has these three traits. I'd be >> Some he has these three traits. I'd be interested to know your thoughts on interested to know your thoughts on interested to know your thoughts on these. So, he's got um conscient three these. So, he's got um conscient three these. So, he's got um conscient three three green flags that uh most people three green flags that uh most people three green flags that uh most people should generally prioritize on finding should generally prioritize on finding should generally prioritize on finding in a partner. in a partner. in a partner. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Conscientiousness. So, I think he calls >> Conscientiousness. So, I think he calls >> Conscientiousness. So, I think he calls it thoughtfulness, but what he means is it thoughtfulness, but what he means is it thoughtfulness, but what he means is conscientiousness. conscientiousness. conscientiousness. >> Um do you pay attention? Are you sort of >> Um do you pay attention? Are you sort of >> Um do you pay attention? Are you sort of reliable? Can you get things done? Have reliable? Can you get things done? Have reliable? Can you get things done? Have you got agency? Do you do you care about you got agency? Do you do you care about you got agency? Do you do you care about the partner? And have you got the the partner? And have you got the the partner? And have you got the ability to make that caring happen? Uh ability to make that caring happen? Uh ability to make that caring happen? Uh second one is uh agreeable. So somebody second one is uh agreeable. So somebody second one is uh agreeable. So somebody who is yes and not no but uh typically who is yes and not no but uh typically who is yes and not no but uh typically doesn't make everything into a fight or doesn't make everything into a fight or doesn't make everything into a fight or a disagreement tends to be supportive as a disagreement tends to be supportive as a disagreement tends to be supportive as opposed to sort of conflict. Uh and then opposed to sort of conflict. Uh and then opposed to sort of conflict. Uh and then the third one is at most moderate the third one is at most moderate the third one is at most moderate openness. Um he says you don't want too openness. Um he says you don't want too openness. Um he says you don't want too much openness because then you get into much openness because then you get into much openness because then you get into the realm of somebody who's got the realm of somebody who's got the realm of somebody who's got wandering eye. They're kind of wandering eye. They're kind of wandering eye. They're kind of unpredictable. It's very hard to lock in unpredictable. It's very hard to lock in unpredictable. It's very hard to lock in a routine. They're going to want to go a routine. They're going to want to go a routine. They're going to want to go polyamorous in 15 years time when the polyamorous in 15 years time when the polyamorous in 15 years time when the kids are a little bit older. uh when you kids are a little bit older. uh when you kids are a little bit older. uh when you definitely don't uh but you also don't definitely don't uh but you also don't definitely don't uh but you also don't want no openness because then you've got want no openness because then you've got want no openness because then you've got no adventure in your life and nothing is no adventure in your life and nothing is no adventure in your life and nothing is ever going to change. So what do you ever going to change. So what do you ever going to change. So what do you think of that? We got conscientiousness, think of that? We got conscientiousness, think of that? We got conscientiousness, we got agreeableness, we got sort of we got agreeableness, we got sort of we got agreeableness, we got sort of moderate openness as generally moderate openness as generally moderate openness as generally prioritized traits for people in in prioritized traits for people in in prioritized traits for people in in relationships. relationships. relationships. >> Yeah. What immediately strikes me is >> Yeah. What immediately strikes me is >> Yeah. What immediately strikes me is that that sounds great for me in my life that that sounds great for me in my life that that sounds great for me in my life where I am right now. And I also know if where I am right now. And I also know if where I am right now. And I also know if you ask this question to my college you ask this question to my college you ask this question to my college students, my 20-year-olds, they might students, my 20-year-olds, they might students, my 20-year-olds, they might want much higher openness and they might want much higher openness and they might want much higher openness and they might actually prefer less conscientiousness actually prefer less conscientiousness actually prefer less conscientiousness cuz like I don't want this guy or this cuz like I don't want this guy or this cuz like I don't want this guy or this girl that's just focused on school. Like girl that's just focused on school. Like girl that's just focused on school. Like I want somebody that wants to have fun. I want somebody that wants to have fun. I want somebody that wants to have fun. And so that's what I would add to this And so that's what I would add to this And so that's what I would add to this is like it's great to have these rules, is like it's great to have these rules, is like it's great to have these rules, guidelines. However, guidelines. However, guidelines. However, personality traits, especially the big personality traits, especially the big personality traits, especially the big five, th those those three um they vary five, th those those three um they vary five, th those those three um they vary throughout the lifespan. People are not throughout the lifespan. People are not throughout the lifespan. People are not aware of this that personality changes aware of this that personality changes aware of this that personality changes actually and that's why I have a beef actually and that's why I have a beef actually and that's why I have a beef I'll tell you I have a beef with I'll tell you I have a beef with I'll tell you I have a beef with personality in general because it's very personality in general because it's very personality in general because it's very situation specific. I I always ask this situation specific. I I always ask this situation specific. I I always ask this in my class when I teach personality. I in my class when I teach personality. I in my class when I teach personality. I say how many people in here are liars say how many people in here are liars say how many people in here are liars >> and like one kid will raise his hand and >> and like one kid will raise his hand and >> and like one kid will raise his hand and you know it's always a little startling you know it's always a little startling you know it's always a little startling to get that you know admission but most to get that you know admission but most to get that you know admission but most people are like no I'm not a liar and people are like no I'm not a liar and people are like no I'm not a liar and then I say how many people lie then I say how many people lie then I say how many people lie everybody raises their hand. everybody raises their hand. everybody raises their hand. >> What is personality then? what what is >> What is personality then? what what is >> What is personality then? what what is the point if it varies from situation to the point if it varies from situation to the point if it varies from situation to situation and it doesn't describe what situation and it doesn't describe what situation and it doesn't describe what people are actually doing. So, all that people are actually doing. So, all that people are actually doing. So, all that to say, um I think those traits are are to say, um I think those traits are are to say, um I think those traits are are high high quality traits, but I also high high quality traits, but I also high high quality traits, but I also think they vary so much situationally think they vary so much situationally think they vary so much situationally that it's really hard to assess and they that it's really hard to assess and they that it's really hard to assess and they vary over time so much that it might not vary over time so much that it might not vary over time so much that it might not be what you want tomorrow and it might be what you want tomorrow and it might be what you want tomorrow and it might not be what you want in 30 years. And so not be what you want in 30 years. And so not be what you want in 30 years. And so I wouldn't use it as a way to pick a I wouldn't use it as a way to pick a I wouldn't use it as a way to pick a partner, but I would use it as a a lens. partner, but I would use it as a a lens. partner, but I would use it as a a lens. Are we compatible in this moment? Are we compatible in this moment? Are we compatible in this moment? >> Yeah. I suppose some sort of cognitive >> Yeah. I suppose some sort of cognitive >> Yeah. I suppose some sort of cognitive flexibility is probably pretty important flexibility is probably pretty important flexibility is probably pretty important as well. Like is is this person open to as well. Like is is this person open to as well. Like is is this person open to growing? growing? growing? >> Um because >> Um because >> Um because >> trajectory. >> trajectory. >> trajectory. >> Yeah. If not and you are again this is >> Yeah. If not and you are again this is >> Yeah. If not and you are again this is compatibility. I I really I think about compatibility. I I really I think about compatibility. I I really I think about this so much, man. When I watch a lot of this so much, man. When I watch a lot of this so much, man. When I watch a lot of the relationship discourse that goes on the relationship discourse that goes on the relationship discourse that goes on online and the reason that he's like online and the reason that he's like online and the reason that he's like this and she's like that and that's not this and she's like that and that's not this and she's like that and that's not going to whatever, what it is for the going to whatever, what it is for the going to whatever, what it is for the most part are people who fundamentally most part are people who fundamentally most part are people who fundamentally weren't compatible in in a few very weren't compatible in in a few very weren't compatible in in a few very important areas. trying to for instance important areas. trying to for instance important areas. trying to for instance guy says um men should never open up to guy says um men should never open up to guy says um men should never open up to women about their emotions because he as women about their emotions because he as women about their emotions because he as perhaps a bit more sensitive of a guy perhaps a bit more sensitive of a guy perhaps a bit more sensitive of a guy than most on average than most on average than most on average >> tried to open up to a woman for whom >> tried to open up to a woman for whom >> tried to open up to a woman for whom that wasn't very enjoyable. That's not that wasn't very enjoyable. That's not that wasn't very enjoyable. That's not the sort of guy that they want. So what the sort of guy that they want. So what the sort of guy that they want. So what you're saying is I cheese tried to get you're saying is I cheese tried to get you're saying is I cheese tried to get with chalk. It went badly. therefore with chalk. It went badly. therefore with chalk. It went badly. therefore this weird outcome that I'm going to this weird outcome that I'm going to this weird outcome that I'm going to explain. It's like no what you need explain. It's like no what you need explain. It's like no what you need because there is an entire slew of women because there is an entire slew of women because there is an entire slew of women out there who would just melt at the out there who would just melt at the out there who would just melt at the thought of this guy opening up his heart thought of this guy opening up his heart thought of this guy opening up his heart to her and telling her about how when he to her and telling her about how when he to her and telling her about how when he was a kid he used to feel on the outside was a kid he used to feel on the outside was a kid he used to feel on the outside and d like that's all that they would and d like that's all that they would and d like that's all that they would just love to sort of bundle that and just love to sort of bundle that and just love to sort of bundle that and then they would still find you hot and then they would still find you hot and then they would still find you hot and they'd still take you to bed afterward they'd still take you to bed afterward they'd still take you to bed afterward and they're still going to wake up and and they're still going to wake up and and they're still going to wake up and watch you go to work and think he's the watch you go to work and think he's the watch you go to work and think he's the man. And similarly for the woman, there man. And similarly for the woman, there man. And similarly for the woman, there is a guy out there who is way more stoic is a guy out there who is way more stoic is a guy out there who is way more stoic and kind of doesn't really feel his and kind of doesn't really feel his and kind of doesn't really feel his feels all that much and and isn't going feels all that much and and isn't going feels all that much and and isn't going to say that. So for her to say, when to say that. So for her to say, when to say that. So for her to say, when guys open up to me, I get the ick is I guys open up to me, I get the ick is I guys open up to me, I get the ick is I need to be in a relationship with a guy need to be in a relationship with a guy need to be in a relationship with a guy who doesn't have that kind of trait. And who doesn't have that kind of trait. And who doesn't have that kind of trait. And the dude who said, "I tried to open up the dude who said, "I tried to open up the dude who said, "I tried to open up and she got the ick." It's like, okay, and she got the ick." It's like, okay, and she got the ick." It's like, okay, you just need to find the woman for whom you just need to find the woman for whom you just need to find the woman for whom not only is that acceptable, but it's not only is that acceptable, but it's not only is that acceptable, but it's actually a turnon. Like that's the sort actually a turnon. Like that's the sort actually a turnon. Like that's the sort of thing that they would go, "Oh, this of thing that they would go, "Oh, this of thing that they would go, "Oh, this is so amazing. I found a man who's is so amazing. I found a man who's is so amazing. I found a man who's competent and feels his feels or the competent and feels his feels or the competent and feels his feels or the opposite. Um, so yeah, so much of it is opposite. Um, so yeah, so much of it is opposite. Um, so yeah, so much of it is basically basically basically >> people trying to reverse engineer >> people trying to reverse engineer >> people trying to reverse engineer incompatibility and then create incompatibility and then create incompatibility and then create universal rules from it, universal rules from it, universal rules from it, >> right? And that's people want rules. >> right? And that's people want rules. >> right? And that's people want rules. They love rules. And that is because They love rules. And that is because They love rules. And that is because rules offer certainty and relationships rules offer certainty and relationships rules offer certainty and relationships are inherently uncertain. are inherently uncertain. are inherently uncertain. I I don't know what to tell you. You I I don't know what to tell you. You I I don't know what to tell you. You know, it's like you want a magic spell, know, it's like you want a magic spell, know, it's like you want a magic spell, you say the incantation, you wave your you say the incantation, you wave your you say the incantation, you wave your wand, bang, you're in love forever. wand, bang, you're in love forever. wand, bang, you're in love forever. That's not even they don't even do that That's not even they don't even do that That's not even they don't even do that in Disney movies anymore, you know, like in Disney movies anymore, you know, like in Disney movies anymore, you know, like that. That's so detached from reality. that. That's so detached from reality. that. That's so detached from reality. And yet we are drawn to it because we And yet we are drawn to it because we And yet we are drawn to it because we like certainty. It makes us feel so much like certainty. It makes us feel so much like certainty. It makes us feel so much better. So that ability to sit with better. So that ability to sit with better. So that ability to sit with uncertainty and to sit with ambiguity uncertainty and to sit with ambiguity uncertainty and to sit with ambiguity and not closing the loop. If you find and not closing the loop. If you find and not closing the loop. If you find somebody like that, that I think is a somebody like that, that I think is a somebody like that, that I think is a very good trait. very good trait. very good trait. >> Say more on that. >> Say more on that. >> Say more on that. >> Well, life, you know, I felt like as a >> Well, life, you know, I felt like as a >> Well, life, you know, I felt like as a kid and as a teen that when I reached kid and as a teen that when I reached kid and as a teen that when I reached adulthood, things would kind of I would adulthood, things would kind of I would adulthood, things would kind of I would get to a point and then I would live. get to a point and then I would live. get to a point and then I would live. >> And I there was a lot of uncertainty. >> And I there was a lot of uncertainty. >> And I there was a lot of uncertainty. You know, I applied to grad school by You know, I applied to grad school by You know, I applied to grad school by the first round. I had done really well the first round. I had done really well the first round. I had done really well in undergrad, high standardized test in undergrad, high standardized test in undergrad, high standardized test scores, did all my research, whatever. I scores, did all my research, whatever. I scores, did all my research, whatever. I applied to 12 top PhD programs. Didn't applied to 12 top PhD programs. Didn't applied to 12 top PhD programs. Didn't get into a single one. And that was get into a single one. And that was get into a single one. And that was unpleasant, let me tell you. And so that unpleasant, let me tell you. And so that unpleasant, let me tell you. And so that set my life on this trajectory that set my life on this trajectory that set my life on this trajectory that eventually I made it kind of back to eventually I made it kind of back to eventually I made it kind of back to where I was trying to go. But what I where I was trying to go. But what I where I was trying to go. But what I found is that reaching that point that I found is that reaching that point that I found is that reaching that point that I was looking for in adulthood, a took was looking for in adulthood, a took was looking for in adulthood, a took forever and b once I got there, we had a forever and b once I got there, we had a forever and b once I got there, we had a baby and things got even more uncertain. baby and things got even more uncertain. baby and things got even more uncertain. I like the kid I figured the infant out. I like the kid I figured the infant out. I like the kid I figured the infant out. Great. Now he can walk. I got a bunch of Great. Now he can walk. I got a bunch of Great. Now he can walk. I got a bunch of new things to think about. And so what I new things to think about. And so what I new things to think about. And so what I learned is that adulthood creates learned is that adulthood creates learned is that adulthood creates increased uncertainty, not decreased increased uncertainty, not decreased increased uncertainty, not decreased uncertainty. And being able to sit with uncertainty. And being able to sit with uncertainty. And being able to sit with that and live with that is something that and live with that is something that and live with that is something that I've I've really grown in. I think that I've I've really grown in. I think that I've I've really grown in. I think my wife has really grown in that. my wife has really grown in that. my wife has really grown in that. >> And it makes life easier because life's >> And it makes life easier because life's >> And it makes life easier because life's never going to be certain. And when you never going to be certain. And when you never going to be certain. And when you learn to tolerate the uncertainty and learn to tolerate the uncertainty and learn to tolerate the uncertainty and live with it, you're just going to have live with it, you're just going to have live with it, you're just going to have a better time. a better time. a better time. Is there anything by way of practice or Is there anything by way of practice or Is there anything by way of practice or prescription or mantra that has helped prescription or mantra that has helped prescription or mantra that has helped you in the times where the uncertainty you in the times where the uncertainty you in the times where the uncertainty really starts to sort of twist the wet really starts to sort of twist the wet really starts to sort of twist the wet rag inside of your stomach and make you rag inside of your stomach and make you rag inside of your stomach and make you feel uncomfortable? feel uncomfortable? feel uncomfortable? Where do you go to to uncertainty is a Where do you go to to uncertainty is a Where do you go to to uncertainty is a part of life and I need to be able to be part of life and I need to be able to be part of life and I need to be able to be comfortable with it. Why? comfortable with it. Why? comfortable with it. Why? >> Yeah, I have run probably 16,000 miles I >> Yeah, I have run probably 16,000 miles I >> Yeah, I have run probably 16,000 miles I think at last count in the last 10 years think at last count in the last 10 years think at last count in the last 10 years and that helps. and that helps. and that helps. >> [ __ ] me. Yeah. >> [ __ ] me. Yeah. >> [ __ ] me. Yeah. >> What's the thing about you can't run >> What's the thing about you can't run >> What's the thing about you can't run away from your problems, but you might away from your problems, but you might away from your problems, but you might >> You can. You can. Yeah, you absolutely >> You can. You can. Yeah, you absolutely >> You can. You can. Yeah, you absolutely can. No, but that's the thing. You can. can. No, but that's the thing. You can. can. No, but that's the thing. You can. But what for me, that is not a lesson But what for me, that is not a lesson But what for me, that is not a lesson everybody should take. You know, I everybody should take. You know, I everybody should take. You know, I really I always I enjoy working out. I really I always I enjoy working out. I really I always I enjoy working out. I enjoy being active. Um, but running in enjoy being active. Um, but running in enjoy being active. Um, but running in particular, I hated running growing up. particular, I hated running growing up. particular, I hated running growing up. That was a punishment in all the other That was a punishment in all the other That was a punishment in all the other sports that I played. But I found when I sports that I played. But I found when I sports that I played. But I found when I slowed down, I had this shoulder injury slowed down, I had this shoulder injury slowed down, I had this shoulder injury and I had to stop playing basketball. and I had to stop playing basketball. and I had to stop playing basketball. So, I started running and So, I started running and So, I started running and when I slowed down, what I realized is when I slowed down, what I realized is when I slowed down, what I realized is it gave me time to think and I would it gave me time to think and I would it gave me time to think and I would have a thought that would bother me on have a thought that would bother me on have a thought that would bother me on this run and it would bother me and I this run and it would bother me and I this run and it would bother me and I would think about it and I would think would think about it and I would think would think about it and I would think about it and then I would see a bird about it and then I would see a bird about it and then I would see a bird and that thought would go away and if it and that thought would go away and if it and that thought would go away and if it was important it would come back and I was important it would come back and I was important it would come back and I would think about it again and again and would think about it again and again and would think about it again and again and again and then I would have to get out again and then I would have to get out again and then I would have to get out of the way of a car and it would go away of the way of a car and it would go away of the way of a car and it would go away and eventually that process of thinking and eventually that process of thinking and eventually that process of thinking and leaving it and thinking and leaving and leaving it and thinking and leaving and leaving it and thinking and leaving it I it really helped me just kind of it I it really helped me just kind of it I it really helped me just kind of deal with deal with deal with >> everything that was going on. And it's >> everything that was going on. And it's >> everything that was going on. And it's not a cure all for sure. not a cure all for sure. not a cure all for sure. >> But in many ways that was a meditative >> But in many ways that was a meditative >> But in many ways that was a meditative pra I hate meditation but running is a pra I hate meditation but running is a pra I hate meditation but running is a meditative practice for me. meditative practice for me. meditative practice for me. >> That's the same how many pe my my >> That's the same how many pe my my >> That's the same how many pe my my housemate George is every morning the housemate George is every morning the housemate George is every morning the yard pool outside I come downstairs and yard pool outside I come downstairs and yard pool outside I come downstairs and he's 45 minutes into a 60-minute he's 45 minutes into a 60-minute he's 45 minutes into a 60-minute meditation cuz for him he's just found meditation cuz for him he's just found meditation cuz for him he's just found the button that he can press. the button that he can press. the button that he can press. >> Yeah. And for you that would sound more >> Yeah. And for you that would sound more >> Yeah. And for you that would sound more like torture. Alex Okconor, Douglas like torture. Alex Okconor, Douglas like torture. Alex Okconor, Douglas Murray, two British friends of mine, Murray, two British friends of mine, Murray, two British friends of mine, both of them, Sam Harris has tried to both of them, Sam Harris has tried to both of them, Sam Harris has tried to teach them live to meditate. You know, teach them live to meditate. You know, teach them live to meditate. You know, this guy teaches probably millions of this guy teaches probably millions of this guy teaches probably millions of people that have got his app and they people that have got his app and they people that have got his app and they got a custoerson got a custoerson got a custoerson live meditation thing and they would live meditation thing and they would live meditation thing and they would have rather stuck pins through their have rather stuck pins through their have rather stuck pins through their fingers. fingers. fingers. >> Oh, me too. Exactly the same >> Oh, me too. Exactly the same >> Oh, me too. Exactly the same >> than done that. They would they would >> than done that. They would they would >> than done that. They would they would have they would have rather fought Sam have they would have rather fought Sam have they would have rather fought Sam Harris in Brazilian jiu-jitsu than than Harris in Brazilian jiu-jitsu than than Harris in Brazilian jiu-jitsu than than been taught to try and [ __ ] meditate been taught to try and [ __ ] meditate been taught to try and [ __ ] meditate by him. So yeah, again this is what I by him. So yeah, again this is what I by him. So yeah, again this is what I like is the like is the like is the >> there are generally accepted principles >> there are generally accepted principles >> there are generally accepted principles that are probably better and worse for that are probably better and worse for that are probably better and worse for your life, but there are no universal your life, but there are no universal your life, but there are no universal rules that work for everybody, rules that work for everybody, rules that work for everybody, >> right? And so just getting that >> right? And so just getting that >> right? And so just getting that experience and learning what works for experience and learning what works for experience and learning what works for you is going to require some trial and you is going to require some trial and you is going to require some trial and error. And the biggest thing, the error. And the biggest thing, the error. And the biggest thing, the biggest mistake I would say that people biggest mistake I would say that people biggest mistake I would say that people make is trying something, having it not make is trying something, having it not make is trying something, having it not work, and then not trying anything else work, and then not trying anything else work, and then not trying anything else or feeling like you can't try because or feeling like you can't try because or feeling like you can't try because you don't want to quit. For me, that was you don't want to quit. For me, that was you don't want to quit. For me, that was I have quit everything. I you know I I have quit everything. I you know I I have quit everything. I you know I like you read the intro when I came in like you read the intro when I came in like you read the intro when I came in and it's like yeah I I did master's and it's like yeah I I did master's and it's like yeah I I did master's degree in clinical psych. I I did not degree in clinical psych. I I did not degree in clinical psych. I I did not like being a therapist so I quit. I I like being a therapist so I quit. I I like being a therapist so I quit. I I studied in seminary. I hated it so I studied in seminary. I hated it so I studied in seminary. I hated it so I quit. I quit football in seventh grade quit. I quit football in seventh grade quit. I quit football in seventh grade since I'm confessing everything. Uh since I'm confessing everything. Uh since I'm confessing everything. Uh coach yelled at me one too many times coach yelled at me one too many times coach yelled at me one too many times once. And that you know that was enough. once. And that you know that was enough. once. And that you know that was enough. And but that being said quitting And but that being said quitting And but that being said quitting football allowed me to focus on other football allowed me to focus on other football allowed me to focus on other sports that I cared a lot about. And so sports that I cared a lot about. And so sports that I cared a lot about. And so if you don't try things, you're never if you don't try things, you're never if you don't try things, you're never gonna especially as you get older in gonna especially as you get older in gonna especially as you get older in life, you're never going to figure out life, you're never going to figure out life, you're never going to figure out what works for you, what what clicks. So what works for you, what what clicks. So what works for you, what what clicks. So never be afraid to quit. never be afraid to quit. never be afraid to quit. >> An interesting blend that people have. I >> An interesting blend that people have. I >> An interesting blend that people have. I think there's some evidence that think there's some evidence that think there's some evidence that suggests people who make changes are suggests people who make changes are suggests people who make changes are happier than people who don't. You Oh happier than people who don't. You Oh happier than people who don't. You Oh yeah. Should I move to a new city or yeah. Should I move to a new city or yeah. Should I move to a new city or not? And people are worried about which not? And people are worried about which not? And people are worried about which city is the most optimal one. Am I going city is the most optimal one. Am I going city is the most optimal one. Am I going to be more happy in this one or not? Or to be more happy in this one or not? Or to be more happy in this one or not? Or whatever. And whatever. And whatever. And maybe there is an imbalance with where maybe there is an imbalance with where maybe there is an imbalance with where the city is or the tax or the weather or the city is or the tax or the weather or the city is or the tax or the weather or the whatever. Um but people who make the whatever. Um but people who make the whatever. Um but people who make changes tend to be more happy. And also changes tend to be more happy. And also changes tend to be more happy. And also over time our openness to experience over time our openness to experience over time our openness to experience seems to go down. Typically people seems to go down. Typically people seems to go down. Typically people become more uh closed. Their openness to become more uh closed. Their openness to become more uh closed. Their openness to experience dips as they get older experience dips as they get older experience dips as they get older throughout life. throughout life. throughout life. >> And also the only way that you can find >> And also the only way that you can find >> And also the only way that you can find out if a solution is right for you is to out if a solution is right for you is to out if a solution is right for you is to try it. And also we are praising a lot try it. And also we are praising a lot try it. And also we are praising a lot of the time the stick with it muscle, of the time the stick with it muscle, of the time the stick with it muscle, the stick with it ability that you the stick with it ability that you the stick with it ability that you shouldn't give up on this thing cuz if shouldn't give up on this thing cuz if shouldn't give up on this thing cuz if you push through there is something good you push through there is something good you push through there is something good on the other side, on the other side, on the other side, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> All of these are traits especially as >> All of these are traits especially as >> All of these are traits especially as you get older that suggest well maybe you get older that suggest well maybe you get older that suggest well maybe trying something new. Don't completely trying something new. Don't completely trying something new. Don't completely quit your job entirely relationship but quit your job entirely relationship but quit your job entirely relationship but perhaps have a look on LinkedIn and see perhaps have a look on LinkedIn and see perhaps have a look on LinkedIn and see if there's anything else out there. if there's anything else out there. if there's anything else out there. Perhaps journal a little bit about why Perhaps journal a little bit about why Perhaps journal a little bit about why you're not super fired up in your you're not super fired up in your you're not super fired up in your current relationship. Perhaps have a current relationship. Perhaps have a current relationship. Perhaps have a little look on Zillow or Right Move at little look on Zillow or Right Move at little look on Zillow or Right Move at what the sort of property prices would what the sort of property prices would what the sort of property prices would be like to to to move to this different be like to to to move to this different be like to to to move to this different city that you're thinking about. Just city that you're thinking about. Just city that you're thinking about. Just little steps and you go, "Oh, wow. I go little steps and you go, "Oh, wow. I go little steps and you go, "Oh, wow. I go to a different coffee shop. I don't wake to a different coffee shop. I don't wake to a different coffee shop. I don't wake up and ruminate. I don't check my phone up and ruminate. I don't check my phone up and ruminate. I don't check my phone immediately and ruminate." And immediately and ruminate." And immediately and ruminate." And >> right, >> right, >> right, >> this is one of the reasons kind of like >> this is one of the reasons kind of like >> this is one of the reasons kind of like a psychological spring clean I suppose a psychological spring clean I suppose a psychological spring clean I suppose that you can do regularly to just patent that you can do regularly to just patent that you can do regularly to just patent interrupt the [ __ ] that you're sort interrupt the [ __ ] that you're sort interrupt the [ __ ] that you're sort of locked into. I'm going to try running of locked into. I'm going to try running of locked into. I'm going to try running that Dr. Max guy ran and everyone's got that Dr. Max guy ran and everyone's got that Dr. Max guy ran and everyone's got part of a run. I'm going to [ __ ] part of a run. I'm going to [ __ ] part of a run. I'm going to [ __ ] maybe they've got some wisdom. I'll give maybe they've got some wisdom. I'll give maybe they've got some wisdom. I'll give it a try. it a try. it a try. I think there's something to it. I think I think there's something to it. I think I think there's something to it. I think there's something to it. And there's something to it. And there's something to it. And increasingly over time like a sniper has increasingly over time like a sniper has increasingly over time like a sniper has to sort of adjust the sights on his to sort of adjust the sights on his to sort of adjust the sights on his rifle if there's wind. That wind is rifle if there's wind. That wind is rifle if there's wind. That wind is going to blow more as you get older. and going to blow more as you get older. and going to blow more as you get older. and the wind is going to actually blow in the wind is going to actually blow in the wind is going to actually blow in the direction of the direction of the direction of being closed and not being open. So, you being closed and not being open. So, you being closed and not being open. So, you need to account for that even further if need to account for that even further if need to account for that even further if you want to maintain that level of sort you want to maintain that level of sort you want to maintain that level of sort of novelty and intrigue and and get out of novelty and intrigue and and get out of novelty and intrigue and and get out of your local maximas. of your local maximas. of your local maximas. >> What's a global maxima that I could >> What's a global maxima that I could >> What's a global maxima that I could maybe get to by trying something new? maybe get to by trying something new? maybe get to by trying something new? >> And it's so important to invest in the >> And it's so important to invest in the >> And it's so important to invest in the things that things that things that give a good return. And sometimes you give a good return. And sometimes you give a good return. And sometimes you need to invest in a new, you know, you need to invest in a new, you know, you need to invest in a new, you know, you have to recognize like this is not have to recognize like this is not have to recognize like this is not giving me a good return. Like what you giving me a good return. Like what you giving me a good return. Like what you were saying, I I have to try something were saying, I I have to try something were saying, I I have to try something else because this isn't working for me. else because this isn't working for me. else because this isn't working for me. And in many ways that applies for people And in many ways that applies for people And in many ways that applies for people as well. Invest in the people that as well. Invest in the people that as well. Invest in the people that invest in you. you know, rather than invest in you. you know, rather than invest in you. you know, rather than trying to insert yourself into trying to insert yourself into trying to insert yourself into somebody's life, if they don't want you somebody's life, if they don't want you somebody's life, if they don't want you in their life, like, yeah, okay, take in their life, like, yeah, okay, take in their life, like, yeah, okay, take that as a signal that you don't have to that as a signal that you don't have to that as a signal that you don't have to cut them out of yours, but at the same cut them out of yours, but at the same cut them out of yours, but at the same time, know that it's going to be a lot time, know that it's going to be a lot time, know that it's going to be a lot harder to take that path than it is to harder to take that path than it is to harder to take that path than it is to invest in somebody who is going to be invest in somebody who is going to be invest in somebody who is going to be there for you. Before we continue, I am there for you. Before we continue, I am there for you. Before we continue, I am a massive fan of reducing your alcohol a massive fan of reducing your alcohol a massive fan of reducing your alcohol intake, but historically, non-alcoholic intake, but historically, non-alcoholic intake, but historically, non-alcoholic brews taste like ass. You don't need to brews taste like ass. You don't need to brews taste like ass. You don't need to be doing some big reset. Maybe you just be doing some big reset. Maybe you just be doing some big reset. Maybe you just want to crack a cold one without feeling want to crack a cold one without feeling want to crack a cold one without feeling like garbage the next morning, which is like garbage the next morning, which is like garbage the next morning, which is why I am such a huge fan of Athletic why I am such a huge fan of Athletic why I am such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing Co. They've got 50 types of NAS, Brewing Co. 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Yeah, I um I it's it's so it's so cool Yeah, I um I it's it's so it's so cool to think about how we can step into our to think about how we can step into our to think about how we can step into our own programming. It's one of my favorite own programming. It's one of my favorite own programming. It's one of my favorite things. Uh, things. Uh, things. Uh, speaking of programming, the way that speaking of programming, the way that speaking of programming, the way that people communicate on the internet, people communicate on the internet, people communicate on the internet, there was that Jonah Hill thing a couple there was that Jonah Hill thing a couple there was that Jonah Hill thing a couple of years ago where his texts got leaked, of years ago where his texts got leaked, of years ago where his texts got leaked, I think, by his ex and he was using all I think, by his ex and he was using all I think, by his ex and he was using all of his therapy language. I saw you react of his therapy language. I saw you react of his therapy language. I saw you react to a video. If I tell you to leave me to a video. If I tell you to leave me to a video. If I tell you to leave me alone and you leave me alone, you're alone and you leave me alone, you're alone and you leave me alone, you're legit dead to me, legit dead to me, legit dead to me, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> What do you think of that? >> What do you think of that? >> What do you think of that? >> In some ways, it depends. Uh, but in >> In some ways, it depends. Uh, but in >> In some ways, it depends. Uh, but in general, I don't think that's a very fun general, I don't think that's a very fun general, I don't think that's a very fun game. I don't, you know, I don't like game. I don't, you know, I don't like game. I don't, you know, I don't like playing that game where you have to playing that game where you have to playing that game where you have to guess at what people mean. It's like guess at what people mean. It's like guess at what people mean. It's like don't talk to me means talk to me. don't talk to me means talk to me. don't talk to me means talk to me. I don't know about you, I'm not good at I don't know about you, I'm not good at I don't know about you, I'm not good at decoding those kinds of signals decoding those kinds of signals decoding those kinds of signals personally h how are you supposed to personally h how are you supposed to personally h how are you supposed to know? So, yeah, I I think being know? So, yeah, I I think being know? So, yeah, I I think being straightforward, weirdly, has to be it's straightforward, weirdly, has to be it's straightforward, weirdly, has to be it's a skill that can be developed and a skill that can be developed and a skill that can be developed and younger people are less likely to have younger people are less likely to have younger people are less likely to have that skill. I remember when I was that skill. I remember when I was that skill. I remember when I was younger younger younger in college especially, in college especially, in college especially, I didn't know how to communicate how I I didn't know how to communicate how I I didn't know how to communicate how I was really feeling to people and I also was really feeling to people and I also was really feeling to people and I also didn't know if it was safe to do that. didn't know if it was safe to do that. didn't know if it was safe to do that. And so you use this kind of like angle And so you use this kind of like angle And so you use this kind of like angle to get there and they go you you know to get there and they go you you know to get there and they go you you know I'm looking sad today. You know, I want I'm looking sad today. You know, I want I'm looking sad today. You know, I want to make sure I want somebody to notice to make sure I want somebody to notice to make sure I want somebody to notice that I'm looking sad today. And they go, that I'm looking sad today. And they go, that I'm looking sad today. And they go, "Oh, you look sad today. Are you sad?" "Oh, you look sad today. Are you sad?" "Oh, you look sad today. Are you sad?" And I go, "No, why do you ask?" Because I want them to ask more. I want Because I want them to ask more. I want them to dig deeper, you know. So, I was them to dig deeper, you know. So, I was them to dig deeper, you know. So, I was so close but not quite there. And that so close but not quite there. And that so close but not quite there. And that is odd to me that we would need to teach is odd to me that we would need to teach is odd to me that we would need to teach people to be straightforward. And yet, people to be straightforward. And yet, people to be straightforward. And yet, here we are here we are here we are >> because there's more effort needed to >> because there's more effort needed to >> because there's more effort needed to obiscate the thing that we actually obiscate the thing that we actually obiscate the thing that we actually want, want, want, >> right? It's like, what are you doing? >> right? It's like, what are you doing? >> right? It's like, what are you doing? Why are you playing that game? And I Why are you playing that game? And I Why are you playing that game? And I think in many ways it's self-protective. think in many ways it's self-protective. think in many ways it's self-protective. It's kind of like flirting but with your It's kind of like flirting but with your It's kind of like flirting but with your emotions. Like making them prove that emotions. Like making them prove that emotions. Like making them prove that they care about me enough to dig deeper they care about me enough to dig deeper they care about me enough to dig deeper and yet I don't. It doesn't require me and yet I don't. It doesn't require me and yet I don't. It doesn't require me to put myself out there. I don't have to put myself out there. I don't have to put myself out there. I don't have to. It is hard to say. Like if I say to to. It is hard to say. Like if I say to to. It is hard to say. Like if I say to you, "Hey, Chris, I'm feeling sad today. you, "Hey, Chris, I'm feeling sad today. you, "Hey, Chris, I'm feeling sad today. I don't know like this interview. I I don't know like this interview. I I don't know like this interview. I don't I don't know how it's going to don't I don't know how it's going to don't I don't know how it's going to go." go." go." Can you imagine if I had started that Can you imagine if I had started that Can you imagine if I had started that way, you've been like, "Oh, okay." You way, you've been like, "Oh, okay." You way, you've been like, "Oh, okay." You know that. So, you have to pick your know that. So, you have to pick your know that. So, you have to pick your spots. But at the same time, if you are spots. But at the same time, if you are spots. But at the same time, if you are in fact feeling sad, which I'm not, by in fact feeling sad, which I'm not, by in fact feeling sad, which I'm not, by the way, but there there this is great, the way, but there there this is great, the way, but there there this is great, but there is a uh there's a way to but there is a uh there's a way to but there is a uh there's a way to reveal that that's more socially reveal that that's more socially reveal that that's more socially appropriate. And I think that's where appropriate. And I think that's where appropriate. And I think that's where the skill is really um learnable. the skill is really um learnable. the skill is really um learnable. >> Why do women say things like leave me >> Why do women say things like leave me >> Why do women say things like leave me alone but actually mean the opposite? How should I know? No. Uh I so I think How should I know? No. Uh I so I think it can be for a variety of reasons. We it can be for a variety of reasons. We it can be for a variety of reasons. We could look at it through a cultural lens could look at it through a cultural lens could look at it through a cultural lens and I think culturally women have been and I think culturally women have been and I think culturally women have been more penalized uh for sharing openly more penalized uh for sharing openly more penalized uh for sharing openly than men have historically. I think than men have historically. I think than men have historically. I think today, you know, it could go either way. today, you know, it could go either way. today, you know, it could go either way. Maybe men are even being penalized more. Maybe men are even being penalized more. Maybe men are even being penalized more. But I think that's one lens of But I think that's one lens of But I think that's one lens of explanation that people sometimes use is explanation that people sometimes use is explanation that people sometimes use is that women have have had to be very that women have have had to be very that women have have had to be very careful in how they communicate. And careful in how they communicate. And careful in how they communicate. And that has been transmitted across time to that has been transmitted across time to that has been transmitted across time to women today, even if it's not as true as women today, even if it's not as true as women today, even if it's not as true as it used to be. So, okay. So, that's it used to be. So, okay. So, that's it used to be. So, okay. So, that's that's maybe one lens. Another is that that's maybe one lens. Another is that that's maybe one lens. Another is that truly social media communication teaches truly social media communication teaches truly social media communication teaches them to do it. And so, that is it's them to do it. And so, that is it's them to do it. And so, that is it's like, hey ladies, this is what you have like, hey ladies, this is what you have like, hey ladies, this is what you have to do. Never tell a guy X. instead do to do. Never tell a guy X. instead do to do. Never tell a guy X. instead do ABC. And ABC. And ABC. And other times it can just be learning. You other times it can just be learning. You other times it can just be learning. You know, you learn over time, like when know, you learn over time, like when know, you learn over time, like when you're in fifth grade, that if you you're in fifth grade, that if you you're in fifth grade, that if you pretend to be sad around a boy, he'll pretend to be sad around a boy, he'll pretend to be sad around a boy, he'll pay extra attention to you. pay extra attention to you. pay extra attention to you. >> And then you never learn a better skill. >> And then you never learn a better skill. >> And then you never learn a better skill. Well, you're still doing that when Well, you're still doing that when Well, you're still doing that when you're 30. And now people are dealing you're 30. And now people are dealing you're 30. And now people are dealing with it, you know, on when you're trying with it, you know, on when you're trying with it, you know, on when you're trying to connect with them on Hinge or to connect with them on Hinge or to connect with them on Hinge or whatever. M. Mhm. I uh Joe Hudson, whatever. M. Mhm. I uh Joe Hudson, whatever. M. Mhm. I uh Joe Hudson, friend of mine, his daughter was 7 years friend of mine, his daughter was 7 years friend of mine, his daughter was 7 years old, crying in the bathtub, and she'd old, crying in the bathtub, and she'd old, crying in the bathtub, and she'd been crying in there quite regularly been crying in there quite regularly been crying in there quite regularly over the last couple of weeks. And he over the last couple of weeks. And he over the last couple of weeks. And he went in and the way that she was crying went in and the way that she was crying went in and the way that she was crying sounded kind of angry at the same time. sounded kind of angry at the same time. sounded kind of angry at the same time. And he said, "Hey, you know, when you're And he said, "Hey, you know, when you're And he said, "Hey, you know, when you're crying, how how often are you sad and crying, how how often are you sad and crying, how how often are you sad and how often you pissed off?" She said, how often you pissed off?" She said, how often you pissed off?" She said, "Pissed off?" Okay. Well, why how why "Pissed off?" Okay. Well, why how why "Pissed off?" Okay. Well, why how why are you crying if you're if you're are you crying if you're if you're are you crying if you're if you're angry? said, "Well, when I'm angry, angry? said, "Well, when I'm angry, angry? said, "Well, when I'm angry, everyone runs away, but when I cry, my everyone runs away, but when I cry, my everyone runs away, but when I cry, my sister comes and gives me a hug." sister comes and gives me a hug." sister comes and gives me a hug." >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> So, there is this the it's not just the >> So, there is this the it's not just the >> So, there is this the it's not just the message, it's the way that that's message, it's the way that that's message, it's the way that that's received. And uh yeah, I I think it's a received. And uh yeah, I I think it's a received. And uh yeah, I I think it's a difficult one. difficult one. difficult one. >> Putting us learning direct communication >> Putting us learning direct communication >> Putting us learning direct communication or not speaking in shadow sentences, or not speaking in shadow sentences, or not speaking in shadow sentences, right? Not not right? Not not right? Not not >> pointing in the direction of the thing >> pointing in the direction of the thing >> pointing in the direction of the thing that you mean, but saying it in a way that you mean, but saying it in a way that you mean, but saying it in a way where you don't plant what you want so where you don't plant what you want so where you don't plant what you want so that it can't be denied, so that you that it can't be denied, so that you that it can't be denied, so that you can't ever be invalidated. But you also can't ever be invalidated. But you also can't ever be invalidated. But you also deny the person the opportunity of deny the person the opportunity of deny the person the opportunity of actually giving you what it is that you actually giving you what it is that you actually giving you what it is that you want. It's the kind of the same as want. It's the kind of the same as want. It's the kind of the same as telling somebody to hit the bullseye on telling somebody to hit the bullseye on telling somebody to hit the bullseye on a dart board, but they've got to have a dart board, but they've got to have a dart board, but they've got to have their eyes closed, their eyes closed, their eyes closed, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Uh or you're moving it like this all the >> Uh or you're moving it like this all the >> Uh or you're moving it like this all the time. Uh yeah. Okay. I guess passive time. Uh yeah. Okay. I guess passive time. Uh yeah. Okay. I guess passive aggression shadow sentences stuff is aggression shadow sentences stuff is aggression shadow sentences stuff is similar to passive aggression. What's similar to passive aggression. What's similar to passive aggression. What's the role of passive aggression in the role of passive aggression in the role of passive aggression in relationships? You know why it comes relationships? You know why it comes relationships? You know why it comes about what its role is? about what its role is? about what its role is? >> Yeah, absolutely. So there uh sometimes >> Yeah, absolutely. So there uh sometimes >> Yeah, absolutely. So there uh sometimes researchers will call it indirect researchers will call it indirect researchers will call it indirect aggression as well. You know there's aggression as well. You know there's aggression as well. You know there's multiple names depending on which angle multiple names depending on which angle multiple names depending on which angle in the literature you you're taking and in the literature you you're taking and in the literature you you're taking and that too is one that has been debated that too is one that has been debated that too is one that has been debated and kind of misunderstood over time. It and kind of misunderstood over time. It and kind of misunderstood over time. It used to be thought that men were used to be thought that men were used to be thought that men were aggressive aggressive and then women aggressive aggressive and then women aggressive aggressive and then women were passive aggressive or indirectly were passive aggressive or indirectly were passive aggressive or indirectly aggressive. And what more re kind of aggressive. And what more re kind of aggressive. And what more re kind of recent research has shown is that men recent research has shown is that men recent research has shown is that men are just more aggressive across the are just more aggressive across the are just more aggressive across the board. board. board. And And And >> including indirectly. >> including indirectly. >> including indirectly. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So they have maybe >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So they have maybe >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So they have maybe equal levels of women uh with indirect equal levels of women uh with indirect equal levels of women uh with indirect but then when you add or maybe even a but then when you add or maybe even a but then when you add or maybe even a little less but then when you add little less but then when you add little less but then when you add aggression aggression it's like no guys aggression aggression it's like no guys aggression aggression it's like no guys are in fact more aggressive. But women, are in fact more aggressive. But women, are in fact more aggressive. But women, I think, are more uh I wouldn't say it's I think, are more uh I wouldn't say it's I think, are more uh I wouldn't say it's rewarded. It's more socially appropriate rewarded. It's more socially appropriate rewarded. It's more socially appropriate for women to be indirectly aggressive for women to be indirectly aggressive for women to be indirectly aggressive typically. And it's also less dangerous. typically. And it's also less dangerous. typically. And it's also less dangerous. So, think about it this way. If you say So, think about it this way. If you say So, think about it this way. If you say to a buddy, you know, you're fighting to a buddy, you know, you're fighting to a buddy, you know, you're fighting and you take a swing at him, you're and you take a swing at him, you're and you take a swing at him, you're probably going to hold your own at probably going to hold your own at probably going to hold your own at worst. You personally, I mean, you're a worst. You personally, I mean, you're a worst. You personally, I mean, you're a big guy, you know, you're you're gonna big guy, you know, you're you're gonna big guy, you know, you're you're gonna you're going to hold hold your own at you're going to hold hold your own at you're going to hold hold your own at worst. If a woman takes a swing at her worst. If a woman takes a swing at her worst. If a woman takes a swing at her guy guy guy in anger, that's very dangerous. And so, in anger, that's very dangerous. And so, in anger, that's very dangerous. And so, as a result, women tend to use passive as a result, women tend to use passive as a result, women tend to use passive aggression or indirect aggression a bit aggression or indirect aggression a bit aggression or indirect aggression a bit more simply because it's a it's a safer more simply because it's a it's a safer more simply because it's a it's a safer outlet. And I think I, you know, this is outlet. And I think I, you know, this is outlet. And I think I, you know, this is not my area of specialization, but I not my area of specialization, but I not my area of specialization, but I think there's some evidence that shows think there's some evidence that shows think there's some evidence that shows that when women are dealing with other that when women are dealing with other that when women are dealing with other women, they're a lot more likely to be women, they're a lot more likely to be women, they're a lot more likely to be aggressive aggressive than to be than if aggressive aggressive than to be than if aggressive aggressive than to be than if they were dealing with men because the they were dealing with men because the they were dealing with men because the potential physical repercussion coming potential physical repercussion coming potential physical repercussion coming back to them, given that they're more back to them, given that they're more back to them, given that they're more fragile and more valuable fragile and more valuable fragile and more valuable evolutionarily, they're less likely evolutionarily, they're less likely evolutionarily, they're less likely they're less likely to have lethal force they're less likely to have lethal force they're less likely to have lethal force be applied because the imbalance just be applied because the imbalance just be applied because the imbalance just isn't there. isn't there. isn't there. >> Correct. I'd have to go back and check >> Correct. I'd have to go back and check >> Correct. I'd have to go back and check on that. I'm almost on that. I'm almost on that. I'm almost >> makes makes total sense. I mean, female >> makes makes total sense. I mean, female >> makes makes total sense. I mean, female intraexual competition is the intraexual competition is the intraexual competition is the least popular on the internet, most least popular on the internet, most least popular on the internet, most fascin It's got the biggest disparity fascin It's got the biggest disparity fascin It's got the biggest disparity between um how much you're allowed to between um how much you're allowed to between um how much you're allowed to talk about it, how little you're allowed talk about it, how little you're allowed talk about it, how little you're allowed to talk about it, and how fascinating it to talk about it, and how fascinating it to talk about it, and how fascinating it is to study, is to study, is to study, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> It is [ __ ] endlessly interesting. the >> It is [ __ ] endlessly interesting. the >> It is [ __ ] endlessly interesting. the Joyce Benninssons, the Candace Blakes, Joyce Benninssons, the Candace Blakes, Joyce Benninssons, the Candace Blakes, the Cororey Clarks, the the [ __ ] the Cororey Clarks, the the [ __ ] the Cororey Clarks, the the [ __ ] Christina Durantises, the Tracy Vying Christina Durantises, the Tracy Vying Christina Durantises, the Tracy Vying cause with Mean Girl, like all of this cause with Mean Girl, like all of this cause with Mean Girl, like all of this stuff is so [ __ ] sick. I remember Rob stuff is so [ __ ] sick. I remember Rob stuff is so [ __ ] sick. I remember Rob Henderson taught me this story or maybe Henderson taught me this story or maybe Henderson taught me this story or maybe it was bus um a it was bus um a it was bus um a woman had been kidnapped by an Amazonian woman had been kidnapped by an Amazonian woman had been kidnapped by an Amazonian tribe while she was on a tour and she'd tribe while she was on a tour and she'd tribe while she was on a tour and she'd been taken into the the the local uh been taken into the the the local uh been taken into the the the local uh tribe after she'd been sort of taken tribe after she'd been sort of taken tribe after she'd been sort of taken from her from her touring group. And from her from her touring group. And from her from her touring group. And when she was there, um, a little boy had when she was there, um, a little boy had when she was there, um, a little boy had come up and given her a little parcel, come up and given her a little parcel, come up and given her a little parcel, given her a parcel that had some food in given her a parcel that had some food in given her a parcel that had some food in it. And, uh, no, sorry. One of the women it. And, uh, no, sorry. One of the women it. And, uh, no, sorry. One of the women had come up. Yeah. One of the boys had had come up. Yeah. One of the boys had had come up. Yeah. One of the boys had come up, given her a parcel that had come up, given her a parcel that had come up, given her a parcel that had some food in it. And, uh, it was, you some food in it. And, uh, it was, you some food in it. And, uh, it was, you can eat this. And she smelled it. And can eat this. And she smelled it. And can eat this. And she smelled it. And it, it sort of smelled bad, so she it, it sort of smelled bad, so she it, it sort of smelled bad, so she didn't want to. And then she went and didn't want to. And then she went and didn't want to. And then she went and sort of laid it down somewhere and sort of laid it down somewhere and sort of laid it down somewhere and didn't bother eating it. And then a didn't bother eating it. And then a didn't bother eating it. And then a little bit later in the day, one of the little bit later in the day, one of the little bit later in the day, one of the kids fell super ill. kids fell super ill. kids fell super ill. And when asked, "What's happened? Why And when asked, "What's happened? Why And when asked, "What's happened? Why are you ill?" She said, "Oh, that woman are you ill?" She said, "Oh, that woman are you ill?" She said, "Oh, that woman put this thing down near me and I went put this thing down near me and I went put this thing down near me and I went over and ate it." And they chased her over and ate it." And they chased her over and ate it." And they chased her through the jungle. You've just tried to through the jungle. You've just tried to through the jungle. You've just tried to poison one of these children. What it poison one of these children. What it poison one of these children. What it turned out had happened was that some of turned out had happened was that some of turned out had happened was that some of the other women had given the parcel to the other women had given the parcel to the other women had given the parcel to a child to give to her, knowing that she a child to give to her, knowing that she a child to give to her, knowing that she would either eat it and get sick or put would either eat it and get sick or put would either eat it and get sick or put it down and then they could accuse her it down and then they could accuse her it down and then they could accuse her of and I'm like, of and I'm like, of and I'm like, >> "It's a trap. Do you understand >> "It's a trap. Do you understand >> "It's a trap. Do you understand just how stupid the male equivalent of just how stupid the male equivalent of just how stupid the male equivalent of that would be? Like if it was a guy that that would be? Like if it was a guy that that would be? Like if it was a guy that had come in and the guys didn't like had come in and the guys didn't like had come in and the guys didn't like him, they would have like man take rock. him, they would have like man take rock. him, they would have like man take rock. Man, Man, Man, >> that's literally what I was going to >> that's literally what I was going to >> that's literally what I was going to say. say. say. >> Man throw rock at like and there's this >> Man throw rock at like and there's this >> Man throw rock at like and there's this sevenst step inception thing. sevenst step inception thing. sevenst step inception thing. Christopher Nolan's designed it. You Christopher Nolan's designed it. You Christopher Nolan's designed it. You know, it's got it's got redundancies know, it's got it's got redundancies know, it's got it's got redundancies built in. if she doesn't do it, she'll built in. if she doesn't do it, she'll built in. if she doesn't do it, she'll give it to someone and then it'll hurt give it to someone and then it'll hurt give it to someone and then it'll hurt them and then we can say that she I'm them and then we can say that she I'm them and then we can say that she I'm like, "Oh, I am so glad that I'm not a like, "Oh, I am so glad that I'm not a like, "Oh, I am so glad that I'm not a woman. I'm endlessly glad that I'm not a woman. I'm endlessly glad that I'm not a woman. I'm endlessly glad that I'm not a woman for that reason. I could not woman for that reason. I could not woman for that reason. I could not navigate that situation at all." Well, navigate that situation at all." Well, navigate that situation at all." Well, and I I was shocked. So, I made I think and I I was shocked. So, I made I think and I I was shocked. So, I made I think I've made one or two posts on I've made one or two posts on I've made one or two posts on intersexual competition recently and I intersexual competition recently and I intersexual competition recently and I thought people might find it to be thought people might find it to be thought people might find it to be mildly interesting. I find it to be very mildly interesting. I find it to be very mildly interesting. I find it to be very interesting. You know, that's one of the interesting. You know, that's one of the interesting. You know, that's one of the things we studied in in grad school a things we studied in in grad school a things we studied in in grad school a bit. And I made this post and I started bit. And I made this post and I started bit. And I made this post and I started taking shots from all over the place. taking shots from all over the place. taking shots from all over the place. It's like, what what you guys have a It's like, what what you guys have a It's like, what what you guys have a problem with this? What? I I thought it problem with this? What? I I thought it problem with this? What? I I thought it was just this wellaccepted principle. was just this wellaccepted principle. was just this wellaccepted principle. That's why I almost didn't post about That's why I almost didn't post about That's why I almost didn't post about it. I I'm out of touch. I don't know it. I I'm out of touch. I don't know it. I I'm out of touch. I don't know what people don't know what people don't know what people don't know >> and apparently a people don't know about >> and apparently a people don't know about >> and apparently a people don't know about this and b when they find out they get this and b when they find out they get this and b when they find out they get real mad. real mad. real mad. >> There are third there are hidden third >> There are third there are hidden third >> There are third there are hidden third rails. I got I got in trouble a little rails. I got I got in trouble a little rails. I got I got in trouble a little while ago for a conversation I had about while ago for a conversation I had about while ago for a conversation I had about birth rate decline. Talking about birth birth rate decline. Talking about birth birth rate decline. Talking about birth rate decline to me is so overdone. It's rate decline to me is so overdone. It's rate decline to me is so overdone. It's almost like a comedian doing a trans almost like a comedian doing a trans almost like a comedian doing a trans joke. It's hacky. Do you know? It's what joke. It's hacky. Do you know? It's what joke. It's hacky. Do you know? It's what I was interested in six years ago and I was interested in six years ago and I was interested in six years ago and it's still a big it's still a big it's still a big >> problem now or whatever. I'm like it's >> problem now or whatever. I'm like it's >> problem now or whatever. I'm like it's is this not just completely accepted is this not just completely accepted is this not just completely accepted >> to the point where talking about it is >> to the point where talking about it is >> to the point where talking about it is hacky and it's kind and I was I this hacky and it's kind and I was I this hacky and it's kind and I was I this broke out into the real internet. It broke out into the real internet. It broke out into the real internet. It broke out of the sort of broke out of the sort of broke out of the sort of >> wisdom verse stuff that I typically do >> wisdom verse stuff that I typically do >> wisdom verse stuff that I typically do and I was like oh wow this is not only and I was like oh wow this is not only and I was like oh wow this is not only not hacky this is unspeakably beyond the not hacky this is unspeakably beyond the not hacky this is unspeakably beyond the Overton window to a huge group of people Overton window to a huge group of people Overton window to a huge group of people who who who they don't have any context about where they don't have any context about where they don't have any context about where I'm coming from about the fact that I do I'm coming from about the fact that I do I'm coming from about the fact that I do this unnecessarily arduous throat this unnecessarily arduous throat this unnecessarily arduous throat clearing land acknowledgement about we clearing land acknowledgement about we clearing land acknowledgement about we must remember that we're not trying to must remember that we're not trying to must remember that we're not trying to get women out of the boardroom and back get women out of the boardroom and back get women out of the boardroom and back into the bedroom we have to remember into the bedroom we have to remember into the bedroom we have to remember that we don't want to row back women's that we don't want to row back women's that we don't want to row back women's rights and birth control and D. And now rights and birth control and D. And now rights and birth control and D. And now that we've said that, allow me to talk that we've said that, allow me to talk that we've said that, allow me to talk about how the only data that we have about how the only data that we have about how the only data that we have from the WHO or from censuses is is the from the WHO or from censuses is is the from the WHO or from censuses is is the total fertility per woman. Like we don't total fertility per woman. Like we don't total fertility per woman. Like we don't have the data around men. So whenever have the data around men. So whenever have the data around men. So whenever we're talking about this, we're talking we're talking about this, we're talking we're talking about this, we're talking about women. I go on Tucker Carlson's about women. I go on Tucker Carlson's about women. I go on Tucker Carlson's podcast and I was accused of being podcast and I was accused of being podcast and I was accused of being riddled with feminist lies and infected riddled with feminist lies and infected riddled with feminist lies and infected with bluepill thinking. And then I went with bluepill thinking. And then I went with bluepill thinking. And then I went and had another conversation a month and had another conversation a month and had another conversation a month later and was accused of being a later and was accused of being a later and was accused of being a right-wing misogynist. I'm like, "Hey right-wing misogynist. I'm like, "Hey right-wing misogynist. I'm like, "Hey guys, if I can say the same [ __ ] in two guys, if I can say the same [ __ ] in two guys, if I can say the same [ __ ] in two different places and be unspeakably on different places and be unspeakably on different places and be unspeakably on the wrong side in opposite directions, the wrong side in opposite directions, the wrong side in opposite directions, and that's the intraexual competition and that's the intraexual competition and that's the intraexual competition thing." But the best argument and this thing." But the best argument and this thing." But the best argument and this is another Rob Henderson one is another Rob Henderson one is another Rob Henderson one >> when he talk when he sort of pushes back >> when he talk when he sort of pushes back >> when he talk when he sort of pushes back against people who say against people who say against people who say have skepticism around female intraexual have skepticism around female intraexual have skepticism around female intraexual competition being as powerful as we say competition being as powerful as we say competition being as powerful as we say it is. The opposite of that is that it is. The opposite of that is that it is. The opposite of that is that women are non-agentic. women are non-agentic. women are non-agentic. Oh. So what you're saying is that women Oh. So what you're saying is that women Oh. So what you're saying is that women don't have the ability to coersse or don't have the ability to coersse or don't have the ability to coersse or cajul or manipulate their way through cajul or manipulate their way through cajul or manipulate their way through the world. So they're just sort of the world. So they're just sort of the world. So they're just sort of passive recipients of whatever other passive recipients of whatever other passive recipients of whatever other people and if it's all women that's men. people and if it's all women that's men. people and if it's all women that's men. Men just do stuff and women are the Men just do stuff and women are the Men just do stuff and women are the recip No. Okay, that doesn't seem like a recip No. Okay, that doesn't seem like a recip No. Okay, that doesn't seem like a particularly empowering perspective. And particularly empowering perspective. And particularly empowering perspective. And also to any woman that's obviously not also to any woman that's obviously not also to any woman that's obviously not how you go through the world or how you how you go through the world or how you how you go through the world or how you would want your daughters to go through would want your daughters to go through would want your daughters to go through the world. You would want them to be the world. You would want them to be the world. You would want them to be able to take control of their future. able to take control of their future. able to take control of their future. And if you deny the fact that they have And if you deny the fact that they have And if you deny the fact that they have control, that they can use intraexual control, that they can use intraexual control, that they can use intraexual competition and mate guarding and status competition and mate guarding and status competition and mate guarding and status seeking and all of these things. If you seeking and all of these things. If you seeking and all of these things. If you deny that they can use that, what you're deny that they can use that, what you're deny that they can use that, what you're basically saying is that there whichever basically saying is that there whichever basically saying is that there whichever direction the wind doth blow they there direction the wind doth blow they there direction the wind doth blow they there they there will be blown that that that they there will be blown that that that they there will be blown that that that it's very disempowering. And I think it's very disempowering. And I think it's very disempowering. And I think when you unveil, when you unveil, when you unveil, you sort of pull the rug off a little you sort of pull the rug off a little you sort of pull the rug off a little bit. You go. I'm aware that there are bit. You go. I'm aware that there are bit. You go. I'm aware that there are lots of people on the internet that say lots of people on the internet that say lots of people on the internet that say [ __ ] awful that that that couch they [ __ ] awful that that that couch they [ __ ] awful that that that couch they couch misogyny in science in a desperate couch misogyny in science in a desperate couch misogyny in science in a desperate attempt to try and make women feel bad. attempt to try and make women feel bad. attempt to try and make women feel bad. I'm just saying you've patent you've I'm just saying you've patent you've I'm just saying you've patent you've patent matched this one incorrectly. uh patent matched this one incorrectly. uh patent matched this one incorrectly. uh when you sort of reveal you do see how when you sort of reveal you do see how when you sort of reveal you do see how there's subtle misogyny coming from the there's subtle misogyny coming from the there's subtle misogyny coming from the other side of the like your side of the other side of the like your side of the other side of the like your side of the fence here by saying women are passive fence here by saying women are passive fence here by saying women are passive victims or implicitly deraggating victims or implicitly deraggating victims or implicitly deraggating motherhood because you say that it's motherhood because you say that it's motherhood because you say that it's something that some women aspire to do something that some women aspire to do something that some women aspire to do and that taking that away from them and that taking that away from them and that taking that away from them might be a bad thing. It's like okay so might be a bad thing. It's like okay so might be a bad thing. It's like okay so you're saying that women are second you're saying that women are second you're saying that women are second mothers a secondass citizen. Well no mothers a secondass citizen. Well no mothers a secondass citizen. Well no obviously I'm not it's okay. Well, obviously I'm not it's okay. Well, obviously I'm not it's okay. Well, again, hidden in some of the again, hidden in some of the again, hidden in some of the presuppositions are kind of like thinly presuppositions are kind of like thinly presuppositions are kind of like thinly veiled misogynistic assumptions from veiled misogynistic assumptions from veiled misogynistic assumptions from your side. your side. your side. >> No, it's not coming from here. So, yeah, >> No, it's not coming from here. So, yeah, >> No, it's not coming from here. So, yeah, I I I feel you on the intersectional I I I feel you on the intersectional I I I feel you on the intersectional competition thing. competition thing. competition thing. >> Well, and that's what's been so >> Well, and that's what's been so >> Well, and that's what's been so interesting to me cuz I've only been on interesting to me cuz I've only been on interesting to me cuz I've only been on social media about a year. I I did not social media about a year. I I did not social media about a year. I I did not want to be here to be honest with you. I want to be here to be honest with you. I want to be here to be honest with you. I love it now. I'm having such a good love it now. I'm having such a good love it now. I'm having such a good time. I love it. time. I love it. time. I love it. >> Did not want to join this circus. That >> Did not want to join this circus. That >> Did not want to join this circus. That being said, uh, I've learned a bunch of being said, uh, I've learned a bunch of being said, uh, I've learned a bunch of things. And one thing that's been really things. And one thing that's been really things. And one thing that's been really interesting to me is how you could be interesting to me is how you could be interesting to me is how you could be vilified kind of on both sides, just vilified kind of on both sides, just vilified kind of on both sides, just like what you're saying, for the same like what you're saying, for the same like what you're saying, for the same thing. thing. thing. >> So, I've been called a a cuck. >> So, I've been called a a cuck. >> So, I've been called a a cuck. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Thousand times. And then I get called a >> Thousand times. And then I get called a >> Thousand times. And then I get called a red pill incel a thousand times. And I'm red pill incel a thousand times. And I'm red pill incel a thousand times. And I'm neither of those things to be honest neither of those things to be honest neither of those things to be honest with you. you know, like it's it should with you. you know, like it's it should with you. you know, like it's it should be clear that I'm just trying to call be clear that I'm just trying to call be clear that I'm just trying to call balls and strikes and people don't like balls and strikes and people don't like balls and strikes and people don't like that. They don't like to be told that that. They don't like to be told that that. They don't like to be told that their favorite thing is wrong, even if their favorite thing is wrong, even if their favorite thing is wrong, even if it's very wrong. And they get it becomes it's very wrong. And they get it becomes it's very wrong. And they get it becomes very personal. So, you know, I found very personal. So, you know, I found very personal. So, you know, I found like you said, there are these there's like you said, there are these there's like you said, there are these there's many rails. There's a third rail, many rails. There's a third rail, many rails. There's a third rail, there's a fourth rail, you know, it's there's a fourth rail, you know, it's there's a fourth rail, you know, it's like, I didn't know that was there. Oh, like, I didn't know that was there. Oh, like, I didn't know that was there. Oh, I didn't know that was there. And I didn't know that was there. And I didn't know that was there. And probably there's something tomorrow that probably there's something tomorrow that probably there's something tomorrow that I'll post. Same thing. Oops. Did not I'll post. Same thing. Oops. Did not I'll post. Same thing. Oops. Did not know that was such an electric issue. know that was such an electric issue. know that was such an electric issue. Yeah, the I I I discovered at least in Yeah, the I I I discovered at least in Yeah, the I I I discovered at least in the first couple of months of 2026 that the first couple of months of 2026 that the first couple of months of 2026 that the basement had a cellar and in the the basement had a cellar and in the the basement had a cellar and in the cellar there was a [ __ ] trap door and cellar there was a [ __ ] trap door and cellar there was a [ __ ] trap door and it just kept on it just kept on going it just kept on it just kept on going it just kept on it just kept on going and I was like oh this is and I was like oh this is and I was like oh this is >> lower and lower >> lower and lower >> lower and lower >> and it was just interesting. It's really >> and it was just interesting. It's really >> and it was just interesting. It's really it's really it's really [ __ ] it's really it's really [ __ ] it's really it's really [ __ ] fascinating but ultimately uncomfortable truths will always win uncomfortable truths will always win against comforting lies just given against comforting lies just given against comforting lies just given enough time. you know, how many things enough time. you know, how many things enough time. you know, how many things were people right about long ago, were people right about long ago, were people right about long ago, whether it's a year or six months or 10 whether it's a year or six months or 10 whether it's a year or six months or 10 years ago, and then it comes years ago, and then it comes years ago, and then it comes being right but early is uncomfortable, being right but early is uncomfortable, being right but early is uncomfortable, but as long as you have your sort of but as long as you have your sort of but as long as you have your sort of stick with it muscle, I think you end up stick with it muscle, I think you end up stick with it muscle, I think you end up being redeemed in the end. Uh, so we being redeemed in the end. Uh, so we being redeemed in the end. Uh, so we said there about the sort of um said there about the sort of um said there about the sort of um difficulty I suppose in men and women's difficulty I suppose in men and women's difficulty I suppose in men and women's communication. What have you learned communication. What have you learned communication. What have you learned about uh healthy and unhealthy about uh healthy and unhealthy about uh healthy and unhealthy communication? How do you how do you communication? How do you how do you communication? How do you how do you suggest that people go about doing that suggest that people go about doing that suggest that people go about doing that better within their relationships? There better within their relationships? There better within their relationships? There there are absolutely things that you can there are absolutely things that you can there are absolutely things that you can do, skills that you can develop over do, skills that you can develop over do, skills that you can develop over time. Being open, being honest, knowing time. Being open, being honest, knowing time. Being open, being honest, knowing though how much is oversharing is an though how much is oversharing is an though how much is oversharing is an additional skill. You know, you don't additional skill. You know, you don't additional skill. You know, you don't have to say everything that pops into have to say everything that pops into have to say everything that pops into your head. And in fact, if you do, that your head. And in fact, if you do, that your head. And in fact, if you do, that probably is not going to be viewed probably is not going to be viewed probably is not going to be viewed positively, you know, and so that just positively, you know, and so that just positively, you know, and so that just takes practice and it takes feedback. takes practice and it takes feedback. takes practice and it takes feedback. And that that's part of the trouble is And that that's part of the trouble is And that that's part of the trouble is people are very afraid partly because of people are very afraid partly because of people are very afraid partly because of what can happen on social media. If I what can happen on social media. If I what can happen on social media. If I say the wrong thing, I'm cancelled. And say the wrong thing, I'm cancelled. And say the wrong thing, I'm cancelled. And for, you know, you reach a certain point for, you know, you reach a certain point for, you know, you reach a certain point where that affects your career. But I where that affects your career. But I where that affects your career. But I think for everyday people who, you know, think for everyday people who, you know, think for everyday people who, you know, have stopped posting on Instagram or on have stopped posting on Instagram or on have stopped posting on Instagram or on Facebook or whatever, there's too much Facebook or whatever, there's too much Facebook or whatever, there's too much risk because what's the benefit? risk because what's the benefit? risk because what's the benefit? >> If you post something and then you get >> If you post something and then you get >> If you post something and then you get ganged up on by literally 3 million ganged up on by literally 3 million ganged up on by literally 3 million people people people for what the the opportunity to get 15 for what the the opportunity to get 15 for what the the opportunity to get 15 likes from the couple of friends that likes from the couple of friends that likes from the couple of friends that happen to see your post. So that happen to see your post. So that happen to see your post. So that trade-off it it it's quite problematic. trade-off it it it's quite problematic. trade-off it it it's quite problematic. And so people are disconnected in real And so people are disconnected in real And so people are disconnected in real life. So they don't get a lot of life. So they don't get a lot of life. So they don't get a lot of opportunities for feedback. Is this opportunities for feedback. Is this opportunities for feedback. Is this oversharing? is this a good idea to say oversharing? is this a good idea to say oversharing? is this a good idea to say this kind of thing and then they don't this kind of thing and then they don't this kind of thing and then they don't post online either. So it's like the post online either. So it's like the post online either. So it's like the opposite of an echo chamber opposite of an echo chamber opposite of an echo chamber >> where you don't say anything and so you >> where you don't say anything and so you >> where you don't say anything and so you don't have the opportunity to learn was don't have the opportunity to learn was don't have the opportunity to learn was this good communication or not. this good communication or not. this good communication or not. >> That's so good. And I guess you never >> That's so good. And I guess you never >> That's so good. And I guess you never get to learn get to learn get to learn whether your assumptions should be whether your assumptions should be whether your assumptions should be corrected because you don't ever put corrected because you don't ever put corrected because you don't ever put yours out there, yours out there, yours out there, >> right? And you just hear because of your >> right? And you just hear because of your >> right? And you just hear because of your algorithm that you curate yourself. You algorithm that you curate yourself. You algorithm that you curate yourself. You just hear the same old stuff. You get just hear the same old stuff. You get just hear the same old stuff. You get that? That's where the echo chamber that? That's where the echo chamber that? That's where the echo chamber comes in. And so comes in. And so comes in. And so you never said, you know, you don't go you never said, you know, you don't go you never said, you know, you don't go to class as a 16-year-old in high school to class as a 16-year-old in high school to class as a 16-year-old in high school and say, you know, I think and say, you know, I think and say, you know, I think women are great. And you find out like women are great. And you find out like women are great. And you find out like women like to hear that. And so instead, women like to hear that. And so instead, women like to hear that. And so instead, you just have these thoughts that echo you just have these thoughts that echo you just have these thoughts that echo around in your head, but you you curate around in your head, but you you curate around in your head, but you you curate a very peculiar algorithm that's very a very peculiar algorithm that's very a very peculiar algorithm that's very specific to you. And you hear these guys specific to you. And you hear these guys specific to you. And you hear these guys typically who are feeding you things and typically who are feeding you things and typically who are feeding you things and I don't know are those good or bad? It I don't know are those good or bad? It I don't know are those good or bad? It really depends on what you're liking, really depends on what you're liking, really depends on what you're liking, what you're commenting on, what you're what you're commenting on, what you're what you're commenting on, what you're watching longer. And I'm not anti- media watching longer. And I'm not anti- media watching longer. And I'm not anti- media at all. But it does create problems. at all. But it does create problems. at all. But it does create problems. There are certainly tradeoffs. And one There are certainly tradeoffs. And one There are certainly tradeoffs. And one of them is that people don't interact as of them is that people don't interact as of them is that people don't interact as much and have an opportunity for much and have an opportunity for much and have an opportunity for learning and feedback. learning and feedback. learning and feedback. >> That fear of of speaking up of if I say >> That fear of of speaking up of if I say >> That fear of of speaking up of if I say something I say something wrong. I do something I say something wrong. I do something I say something wrong. I do think that that probably entrenches think that that probably entrenches think that that probably entrenches people's opinions more people's opinions more people's opinions more than if they were actually allowed to than if they were actually allowed to than if they were actually allowed to spew what is wrong because spew what is wrong because spew what is wrong because >> right >> right >> right >> there was a a great study that was done >> there was a a great study that was done >> there was a a great study that was done a while ago sort of comparing um a while ago sort of comparing um a while ago sort of comparing um erroneous beliefs that each side had erroneous beliefs that each side had erroneous beliefs that each side had about the other left and right and it about the other left and right and it about the other left and right and it was the percentage of right-wing people was the percentage of right-wing people was the percentage of right-wing people who think that leftwing people are trans who think that leftwing people are trans who think that leftwing people are trans are the people the percentage of are the people the percentage of are the people the percentage of left-wing people who think that left-wing people who think that left-wing people who think that right-wing people don't want there to be right-wing people don't want there to be right-wing people don't want there to be any birth control and there is just so any birth control and there is just so any birth control and there is just so much more. The ven diagram is actually much more. The ven diagram is actually much more. The ven diagram is actually basically two circles with a couple of basically two circles with a couple of basically two circles with a couple of bits out on the wings. Most people bits out on the wings. Most people bits out on the wings. Most people agreed with most things. Most people agreed with most things. Most people agreed with most things. Most people most people on the right wanted some most people on the right wanted some most people on the right wanted some safe gun control. Most people on the safe gun control. Most people on the safe gun control. Most people on the left wanted some strong military and you left wanted some strong military and you left wanted some strong military and you you end up with if the you end up with if the you end up with if the ven diagrams never cross over because ven diagrams never cross over because ven diagrams never cross over because people stay in their echo chambers or if people stay in their echo chambers or if people stay in their echo chambers or if people never speak up they never get to people never speak up they never get to people never speak up they never get to engage in dialogue in a meaningful way engage in dialogue in a meaningful way engage in dialogue in a meaningful way with somebody else. And you're right. I with somebody else. And you're right. I with somebody else. And you're right. I I the the patent matching like the speed I the the patent matching like the speed I the the patent matching like the speed of [ __ ] patent matching on the of [ __ ] patent matching on the of [ __ ] patent matching on the internet of you. Who are these men to internet of you. Who are these men to internet of you. Who are these men to talk about women's issues? talk about women's issues? talk about women's issues? >> Like why men need to men need to stay in >> Like why men need to men need to stay in >> Like why men need to men need to stay in their place? Who are they to speak about their place? Who are they to speak about their place? Who are they to speak about women's issues? He's like, well, women's issues? He's like, well, women's issues? He's like, well, >> the issue that you have is not about men >> the issue that you have is not about men >> the issue that you have is not about men speaking about women's issues. The issue speaking about women's issues. The issue speaking about women's issues. The issue you have is that men are speaking about you have is that men are speaking about you have is that men are speaking about women's issues from the perspective that women's issues from the perspective that women's issues from the perspective that you don't agree with. Because if they you don't agree with. Because if they you don't agree with. Because if they were saying the thing that you agreed were saying the thing that you agreed were saying the thing that you agreed with, you would be completely happy. And with, you would be completely happy. And with, you would be completely happy. And there is a cohort of women out there who there is a cohort of women out there who there is a cohort of women out there who are happy that they're saying it because are happy that they're saying it because are happy that they're saying it because that's their opinion. And also, if you that's their opinion. And also, if you that's their opinion. And also, if you were to say, who are these men to talk were to say, who are these men to talk were to say, who are these men to talk about women's issues? Okay. So, only if about women's issues? Okay. So, only if about women's issues? Okay. So, only if I'm from the group I'm from the group I'm from the group >> that I'm talking about am I allowed to >> that I'm talking about am I allowed to >> that I'm talking about am I allowed to speak on on their issues. So that means speak on on their issues. So that means speak on on their issues. So that means that gay rights are [ __ ] because I'm that gay rights are [ __ ] because I'm that gay rights are [ __ ] because I'm not gay and I'm afraid that the soldiers not gay and I'm afraid that the soldiers not gay and I'm afraid that the soldiers on the front lines of the Ukraine war. on the front lines of the Ukraine war. on the front lines of the Ukraine war. Uh I'm not Ukrainian or Russian so I I Uh I'm not Ukrainian or Russian so I I Uh I'm not Ukrainian or Russian so I I have nothing to contribute there. have nothing to contribute there. have nothing to contribute there. Palestine that's also ruined. Uh I'm not Palestine that's also ruined. Uh I'm not Palestine that's also ruined. Uh I'm not a dog so the RSPCA is I'm not a child so a dog so the RSPCA is I'm not a child so a dog so the RSPCA is I'm not a child so the NPCC that's gone. Uh I'm not a whale the NPCC that's gone. Uh I'm not a whale the NPCC that's gone. Uh I'm not a whale so the Save the Whales project that's so the Save the Whales project that's so the Save the Whales project that's also [ __ ] like you there is you it also [ __ ] like you there is you it also [ __ ] like you there is you it because people are so quick to find an because people are so quick to find an because people are so quick to find an enemy on the internet and say you are enemy on the internet and say you are enemy on the internet and say you are the guy that's doing this wrong and I the guy that's doing this wrong and I the guy that's doing this wrong and I know your true intentions know your true intentions know your true intentions >> right >> right >> right >> because the total number of reasonable >> because the total number of reasonable >> because the total number of reasonable people that exist on the internet is people that exist on the internet is people that exist on the internet is getting squished down to like five like getting squished down to like five like getting squished down to like five like they're not the ones who comment you they're not the ones who comment you they're not the ones who comment you know they don't care they like the post know they don't care they like the post know they don't care they like the post or they watch it and they move on but or they watch it and they move on but or they watch it and they move on but the ones who comment are the people who the ones who comment are the people who the ones who comment are the people who are angry typically or the people who are angry typically or the people who are angry typically or the people who are your are your are your supporters. And so in the comment supporters. And so in the comment supporters. And so in the comment sections, you see those two sections, you see those two sections, you see those two >> polarity, right? Exactly. >> polarity, right? Exactly. >> polarity, right? Exactly. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the problem with >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the problem with >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the problem with that is that it causes people to dig that is that it causes people to dig that is that it causes people to dig their heels in more. Like you see this their heels in more. Like you see this their heels in more. Like you see this you see this with um people who are real you see this with um people who are real you see this with um people who are real passionate about climate change. They passionate about climate change. They passionate about climate change. They think climate change is is super think climate change is is super think climate change is is super important. So they plant this flag in important. So they plant this flag in important. So they plant this flag in the ground and they say this is the ground and they say this is the ground and they say this is important and nobody listens. Or maybe important and nobody listens. Or maybe important and nobody listens. Or maybe people mock them or people say that they people mock them or people say that they people mock them or people say that they shouldn't be doing it. So they shout shouldn't be doing it. So they shout shouldn't be doing it. So they shout louder because people aren't listening. louder because people aren't listening. louder because people aren't listening. So what do you do when someone's not So what do you do when someone's not So what do you do when someone's not listening? You make the signal greater. listening? You make the signal greater. listening? You make the signal greater. You make the amplitude greater. And You make the amplitude greater. And You make the amplitude greater. And people still not listening. So they go people still not listening. So they go people still not listening. So they go louder. And then eventually the first louder. And then eventually the first louder. And then eventually the first that somebody sees of you, well-meaning, that somebody sees of you, well-meaning, that somebody sees of you, well-meaning, calm climate campaigner person 10 years calm climate campaigner person 10 years calm climate campaigner person 10 years ago is you gluing yourself to the M25 in ago is you gluing yourself to the M25 in ago is you gluing yourself to the M25 in London because you're shouting so loudly London because you're shouting so loudly London because you're shouting so loudly now that superglue is the only vehicle now that superglue is the only vehicle now that superglue is the only vehicle through which you can get your message through which you can get your message through which you can get your message across. And this is where I I think I've across. And this is where I I think I've across. And this is where I I think I've managed to go through the entirety of managed to go through the entirety of managed to go through the entirety of 1,60 episodes without sort of actively 1,60 episodes without sort of actively 1,60 episodes without sort of actively calling anybody out. calling anybody out. calling anybody out. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh because it for me this game of >> Uh because it for me this game of >> Uh because it for me this game of [ __ ] paddle that you play where it [ __ ] paddle that you play where it [ __ ] paddle that you play where it just increases the size of the ball and just increases the size of the ball and just increases the size of the ball and the velocity each time that you hit it. the velocity each time that you hit it. the velocity each time that you hit it. I don't think that that's particularly I I don't think that that's particularly I I don't think that that's particularly I don't think that's particularly don't think that's particularly don't think that's particularly constructive. And uh constructive. And uh constructive. And uh >> it's definitely not productive. No. And >> it's definitely not productive. No. And >> it's definitely not productive. No. And I think it's a really admirable thing to I think it's a really admirable thing to I think it's a really admirable thing to call out ideas rather than calling out call out ideas rather than calling out call out ideas rather than calling out people because ideas can be wrong. Ideas people because ideas can be wrong. Ideas people because ideas can be wrong. Ideas can be debated. People can be wrong and can be debated. People can be wrong and can be debated. People can be wrong and people can be debated. But so often it people can be debated. But so often it people can be debated. But so often it turns personal and it's like you are the turns personal and it's like you are the turns personal and it's like you are the type of person who and that is where the type of person who and that is where the type of person who and that is where the conversation ceases to be a conversation conversation ceases to be a conversation conversation ceases to be a conversation anymore. It's just people yelling at anymore. It's just people yelling at anymore. It's just people yelling at each other. each other. each other. >> Well, then not you're no longer >> Well, then not you're no longer >> Well, then not you're no longer discussing the idea. And this person discussing the idea. And this person discussing the idea. And this person allow me Max. I I appreciate that you've allow me Max. I I appreciate that you've allow me Max. I I appreciate that you've got this perspective on on ovulatory got this perspective on on ovulatory got this perspective on on ovulatory shift, but I I think that I think that shift, but I I think that I think that shift, but I I think that I think that you're mistaken here as opposed to we you're mistaken here as opposed to we you're mistaken here as opposed to we really know what you mean. We know what really know what you mean. We know what really know what you mean. We know what you mean by that. And it's that you're you mean by that. And it's that you're you mean by that. And it's that you're saying that saying that saying that >> you've lost all credibility. We know >> you've lost all credibility. We know >> you've lost all credibility. We know you're the type of person who dot dot you're the type of person who dot dot you're the type of person who dot dot dot. dot. dot. >> Exactly. It's and it's like no and there >> Exactly. It's and it's like no and there >> Exactly. It's and it's like no and there are lots and lots of people out there are lots and lots of people out there are lots and lots of people out there for whom that is true. And the more for whom that is true. And the more for whom that is true. And the more again, you were talking about it before, again, you were talking about it before, again, you were talking about it before, sort of if the uh open honest sort of if the uh open honest sort of if the uh open honest communication, wouldn't that be great? communication, wouldn't that be great? communication, wouldn't that be great? Wouldn't that be lovely for for for more Wouldn't that be lovely for for for more Wouldn't that be lovely for for for more people to do? [ __ ] me. Wouldn't that be people to do? [ __ ] me. Wouldn't that be people to do? [ __ ] me. Wouldn't that be lovely for the internet to do? lovely for the internet to do? lovely for the internet to do? >> Like that would be so great if people >> Like that would be so great if people >> Like that would be so great if people just said what they meant. I remember I just said what they meant. I remember I just said what they meant. I remember I saw this uh saw this uh saw this uh >> this tweet a while ago that was breaking >> this tweet a while ago that was breaking >> this tweet a while ago that was breaking down the fact that down the fact that down the fact that >> passive aggression and sort of >> passive aggression and sort of >> passive aggression and sort of >> sardonic standoffish language is is the >> sardonic standoffish language is is the >> sardonic standoffish language is is the language of Twitter. And it's that language of Twitter. And it's that language of Twitter. And it's that >> you see some two people going back and >> you see some two people going back and >> you see some two people going back and forth trading insults or whatever and forth trading insults or whatever and forth trading insults or whatever and one person goes lol when what they one person goes lol when what they one person goes lol when what they actually mean is [ __ ] you. But no one actually mean is [ __ ] you. But no one actually mean is [ __ ] you. But no one ever sees [ __ ] you because that would ever sees [ __ ] you because that would ever sees [ __ ] you because that would show that you got to me or that you show that you got to me or that you show that you got to me or that you crossed a line. So everybody's in this crossed a line. So everybody's in this crossed a line. So everybody's in this weird weird weird >> like Christopher Hitchens sardonic >> like Christopher Hitchens sardonic >> like Christopher Hitchens sardonic sarcastic ivory tower thing where sarcastic ivory tower thing where sarcastic ivory tower thing where they're doing this cooler than cool as a they're doing this cooler than cool as a they're doing this cooler than cool as a because nobody actually wants to show because nobody actually wants to show because nobody actually wants to show their true colors on the internet. And their true colors on the internet. And their true colors on the internet. And that means that if you do, somebody that means that if you do, somebody that means that if you do, somebody doesn't take your message for what it doesn't take your message for what it doesn't take your message for what it is. They take your message as the shadow is. They take your message as the shadow is. They take your message as the shadow of the thing that you really meant to of the thing that you really meant to of the thing that you really meant to say. Whoa. Whoa. If that's what he's say. Whoa. Whoa. If that's what he's say. Whoa. Whoa. If that's what he's saying publicly, imagine what he's saying publicly, imagine what he's saying publicly, imagine what he's saying privately. Like the same thing saying privately. Like the same thing saying privately. Like the same thing saying the same thing that because I'm saying the same thing that because I'm saying the same thing that because I'm aware that that's a rarity online. Well, aware that that's a rarity online. Well, aware that that's a rarity online. Well, and the other part of that is sometimes and the other part of that is sometimes and the other part of that is sometimes you do in you say things you might you do in you say things you might you do in you say things you might regret in the heat of the moment and regret in the heat of the moment and regret in the heat of the moment and then that gets screenshotted and saved then that gets screenshotted and saved then that gets screenshotted and saved forever and now you are that guy that forever and now you are that guy that forever and now you are that guy that did that one thing did that one thing did that one thing >> and that I think that limits people's >> and that I think that limits people's >> and that I think that limits people's even attempts to communicate even attempts to communicate even attempts to communicate for good and for bad. But that shuts I for good and for bad. But that shuts I for good and for bad. But that shuts I think that shuts down the average person think that shuts down the average person think that shuts down the average person as well. And it also it inhibits people as well. And it also it inhibits people as well. And it also it inhibits people from playing with ideas and from from playing with ideas and from from playing with ideas and from speaking freely because you just I think speaking freely because you just I think speaking freely because you just I think about it every day to be honest with about it every day to be honest with about it every day to be honest with you. It's like every day I wake up is you. It's like every day I wake up is you. It's like every day I wake up is today the day that I you know this post today the day that I you know this post today the day that I you know this post that I have scheduled is the one that that I have scheduled is the one that that I have scheduled is the one that gets me in that does me in gets me in that does me in gets me in that does me in >> and so I check every day you know it's >> and so I check every day you know it's >> and so I check every day you know it's like okay no it's fine don't worry about like okay no it's fine don't worry about like okay no it's fine don't worry about >> my my digital uh ghost of me is still >> my my digital uh ghost of me is still >> my my digital uh ghost of me is still alive. Fantastic. alive. Fantastic. alive. Fantastic. >> Right. Right. No. Exactly. And so I >> Right. Right. No. Exactly. And so I >> Right. Right. No. Exactly. And so I would probably say some not that I would would probably say some not that I would would probably say some not that I would say crazy things, but I'd be a lot more say crazy things, but I'd be a lot more say crazy things, but I'd be a lot more playful. I would try things out. And um playful. I would try things out. And um playful. I would try things out. And um so that's kind of problematic just for so that's kind of problematic just for so that's kind of problematic just for society in that we are becoming much society in that we are becoming much society in that we are becoming much more pigeonholed and we're pigeonholding more pigeonholed and we're pigeonholding more pigeonholed and we're pigeonholding ourselves in our lane, what you know, ourselves in our lane, what you know, ourselves in our lane, what you know, whatever that might be. And there's not whatever that might be. And there's not whatever that might be. And there's not as much crossover. There's not as much as much crossover. There's not as much as much crossover. There's not as much creativity. creativity. creativity. There are some benefits for people not There are some benefits for people not There are some benefits for people not saying crazy things, don't get me wrong, saying crazy things, don't get me wrong, saying crazy things, don't get me wrong, >> because there's pressure from the >> because there's pressure from the >> because there's pressure from the outside that if you do say something outside that if you do say something outside that if you do say something that's beyond the pale, you'll get found that's beyond the pale, you'll get found that's beyond the pale, you'll get found out for it, out for it, out for it, >> right? And so it's not all bad, >> right? And so it's not all bad, >> right? And so it's not all bad, >> but it's certainly not all good either. >> but it's certainly not all good either. >> but it's certainly not all good either. >> It's the least >> It's the least >> It's the least possible gracious interpretation possible gracious interpretation possible gracious interpretation >> of of anything that anybody's said. >> of of anything that anybody's said. >> of of anything that anybody's said. >> Yeah. And I have to I have to convince >> Yeah. And I have to I have to convince >> Yeah. And I have to I have to convince myself to do that in my daily life, not myself to do that in my daily life, not myself to do that in my daily life, not even on the internet, but you know, I even on the internet, but you know, I even on the internet, but you know, I get this email and I'm like, okay, I get this email and I'm like, okay, I get this email and I'm like, okay, I don't like that. And so in my head, it's don't like that. And so in my head, it's don't like that. And so in my head, it's okay, but what is the most possible okay, but what is the most possible okay, but what is the most possible gracious interpretation of this? And gracious interpretation of this? And gracious interpretation of this? And often it's like, well, maybe they're often it's like, well, maybe they're often it's like, well, maybe they're having a bad day and they didn't having a bad day and they didn't having a bad day and they didn't actually mean to phrase it that way. And actually mean to phrase it that way. And actually mean to phrase it that way. And I certainly have bad days and send the I certainly have bad days and send the I certainly have bad days and send the wrong wording. So why can't I extend wrong wording. So why can't I extend wrong wording. So why can't I extend that possibility to other people as that possibility to other people as that possibility to other people as well? Well, it takes extra effort. And well? Well, it takes extra effort. And well? Well, it takes extra effort. And sometimes that's the simple reason why sometimes that's the simple reason why sometimes that's the simple reason why we don't do that. But I really I do we don't do that. But I really I do we don't do that. But I really I do personally I try to make an effort to do personally I try to make an effort to do personally I try to make an effort to do that because so often our mind leaps to that because so often our mind leaps to that because so often our mind leaps to they hate me. That's why they did that. they hate me. That's why they did that. they hate me. That's why they did that. >> They're a bad person. >> They're a bad person. >> They're a bad person. >> They're a bad person. >> They're a bad person. >> They're a bad person. >> Yeah. This sort of reductive >> Yeah. This sort of reductive >> Yeah. This sort of reductive two-dimensional view. Dr. Max two-dimensional view. Dr. Max two-dimensional view. Dr. Max Butterfield, ladies and gentlemen. Max, Butterfield, ladies and gentlemen. Max, Butterfield, ladies and gentlemen. Max, you [ __ ] rule, dude. I I uh What can you [ __ ] rule, dude. I I uh What can you [ __ ] rule, dude. I I uh What can I do? What you think? Have a think. If I do? What you think? Have a think. If I do? What you think? Have a think. If there's anything that I can do, if there's anything that I can do, if there's anything that I can do, if there's any intros you need or signal there's any intros you need or signal there's any intros you need or signal boosts that you need, you've got me for boosts that you need, you've got me for boosts that you need, you've got me for for for whatever it is that you want. for for whatever it is that you want. for for whatever it is that you want. Uh, within reason. Uh, within reason. Uh, within reason. >> I Yeah. No, of course. I I really >> I Yeah. No, of course. I I really >> I Yeah. No, of course. I I really appreciate it. I right now I'm trying to appreciate it. I right now I'm trying to appreciate it. I right now I'm trying to grow my email list. Uh, grow my email list. Uh, grow my email list. Uh, drmaxbutterfield.com. drmaxbutterfield.com. drmaxbutterfield.com. Just put your email in there. And uh I'm Just put your email in there. And uh I'm Just put your email in there. And uh I'm got big plans. Some I can't really talk got big plans. Some I can't really talk got big plans. Some I can't really talk about publicly yet. You kind of know how about publicly yet. You kind of know how about publicly yet. You kind of know how that goes. I've got some things in the that goes. I've got some things in the that goes. I've got some things in the works. So, sign up for the email list works. So, sign up for the email list works. So, sign up for the email list and find out what the what that secret and find out what the what that secret and find out what the what that secret is. But is. But is. But >> I can, dude. Yeah. Uh, I want to fly you >> I can, dude. Yeah. Uh, I want to fly you >> I can, dude. Yeah. Uh, I want to fly you out to Austin as soon as I've got this out to Austin as soon as I've got this out to Austin as soon as I've got this new studio done. I need to get you in. new studio done. I need to get you in. new studio done. I need to get you in. We need to sit down and and and talk We need to sit down and and and talk We need to sit down and and and talk more. So, once that's ready, I'd love to more. So, once that's ready, I'd love to more. So, once that's ready, I'd love to bring you out. Everyone should follow bring you out. Everyone should follow bring you out. Everyone should follow you on Instagram as well. What's your you on Instagram as well. What's your you on Instagram as well. What's your IG? IG? IG? >> Uh, Dr. Max Butterfield. >> Uh, Dr. Max Butterfield. >> Uh, Dr. Max Butterfield. >> Dude, you're great. I'm looking forward >> Dude, you're great. I'm looking forward >> Dude, you're great. I'm looking forward to seeing what you make. to seeing what you make. to seeing what you make. >> Awesome. Thank you so much. It was a It >> Awesome. Thank you so much. It was a It >> Awesome. Thank you so much. It was a It was a blast. This was a great was a blast. This was a great was a blast. This was a great conversation. [ __ ] you. conversation. [ __ ] you. conversation. [ __ ] you. >> Congratulations. You made it to the end >> Congratulations. You made it to the end >> Congratulations. You made it to the end of an episode. Your brain has not been of an episode. Your brain has not been of an episode. Your brain has not been completely destroyed by the internet completely destroyed by the internet completely destroyed by the internet just yet. Here's another one that you just yet. Here's another one that you just yet. Here's another one that you should watch. should watch. should watch. Come on.