The Genetics of Evil: Are People Born Bad? - Dr Kathryn Paige Harden

What happened after the publication of What happened after the publication of your last book? [laughter] your last book? [laughter] your last book? [laughter] >> Oh, it was a wild time. I I there was a >> Oh, it was a wild time. I I there was a >> Oh, it was a wild time. I I there was a lot of controversy. There was a lot of lot of controversy. There was a lot of lot of controversy. There was a lot of push back. Um the conversations that I push back. Um the conversations that I push back. Um the conversations that I had with real people, not with other had with real people, not with other had with real people, not with other academics, but with just people who academics, but with just people who academics, but with just people who wrote me, people who, you know, happened wrote me, people who, you know, happened wrote me, people who, you know, happened to encounter the book in some way. That to encounter the book in some way. That to encounter the book in some way. That was fantastic. Um, people wrote me and was fantastic. Um, people wrote me and was fantastic. Um, people wrote me and they said, they said, they said, "I've always wondered why I'm so "I've always wondered why I'm so "I've always wondered why I'm so different from my parents or why I'm so different from my parents or why I'm so different from my parents or why I'm so different from my siblings and your work different from my siblings and your work different from my siblings and your work has given me a new way of understanding has given me a new way of understanding has given me a new way of understanding that." They that." They that." They um wrote to me about their decision to um wrote to me about their decision to um wrote to me about their decision to have kids or their decision not to have have kids or their decision not to have have kids or their decision not to have kids and how thinking about genetics has kids and how thinking about genetics has kids and how thinking about genetics has shaped that. So, that part of the shaped that. So, that part of the shaped that. So, that part of the conversation, which is the dialogue conversation, which is the dialogue conversation, which is the dialogue between an author and their readers, was between an author and their readers, was between an author and their readers, was fantastic. I loved that. Mhm. fantastic. I loved that. Mhm. fantastic. I loved that. Mhm. >> And then there was another part of the >> And then there was another part of the >> And then there was another part of the dialogue which was me with other dialogue which was me with other dialogue which was me with other academics and that was really surprising academics and that was really surprising academics and that was really surprising to me um in part because I felt like to me um in part because I felt like to me um in part because I felt like they some people needed to turn me into they some people needed to turn me into they some people needed to turn me into a villain in order to a villain in order to a villain in order to get their own message out. Um and I was get their own message out. Um and I was get their own message out. Um and I was kind of caught off guard by that whole kind of caught off guard by that whole kind of caught off guard by that whole process. So um I wish I could say that I process. So um I wish I could say that I process. So um I wish I could say that I had a thicker skin now but I but I don't had a thicker skin now but I but I don't had a thicker skin now but I but I don't in many ways. I I really do care what in many ways. I I really do care what in many ways. I I really do care what people think. I care about getting it people think. I care about getting it people think. I care about getting it right. Um so it took me a bit to think right. Um so it took me a bit to think right. Um so it took me a bit to think about how to get myself back out there about how to get myself back out there about how to get myself back out there in terms of the ideas in the wake of in terms of the ideas in the wake of in terms of the ideas in the wake of that. that. that. >> Especially if you're doing something >> Especially if you're doing something >> Especially if you're doing something that you think is trying to educate that you think is trying to educate that you think is trying to educate people about what is true. people about what is true. people about what is true. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I'm trying to emancipate you from >> I'm trying to emancipate you from >> I'm trying to emancipate you from ignorance and explain things that make ignorance and explain things that make ignorance and explain things that make you feel less broken and alone. And then you feel less broken and alone. And then you feel less broken and alone. And then someone comes in and says, "Well, someone comes in and says, "Well, someone comes in and says, "Well, actually what she's trying to actually what she's trying to actually what she's trying to >> what she's really saying, >> what she's really saying, >> what she's really saying, >> dude, don't try and [ __ ] imbue me >> dude, don't try and [ __ ] imbue me >> dude, don't try and [ __ ] imbue me with your perspective of who you think I with your perspective of who you think I with your perspective of who you think I am or what you think my work is." And am or what you think my work is." And am or what you think my work is." And that's where we're getting dign. There's that's where we're getting dign. There's that's where we're getting dign. There's that line, right, that the only insults that line, right, that the only insults that line, right, that the only insults that hurt are the ones that we believe. that hurt are the ones that we believe. that hurt are the ones that we believe. I don't think that's true. I think the I don't think that's true. I think the I don't think that's true. I think the only insults that hurt or the insults only insults that hurt or the insults only insults that hurt or the insults that hurt most are the ones that we that hurt most are the ones that we that hurt most are the ones that we think other people might believe about think other people might believe about think other people might believe about us. I think the insults that hurt most us. I think the insults that hurt most us. I think the insults that hurt most are the ones in which I didn't recognize are the ones in which I didn't recognize are the ones in which I didn't recognize the person they were insulting. So when the person they were insulting. So when the person they were insulting. So when you write a book, you have ideas and you write a book, you have ideas and you write a book, you have ideas and they're literally, you know, in black they're literally, you know, in black they're literally, you know, in black and white. They're on the text. and white. They're on the text. and white. They're on the text. >> You can point and you can say, "Look, I >> You can point and you can say, "Look, I >> You can point and you can say, "Look, I wrote this." And then when someone says, wrote this." And then when someone says, wrote this." And then when someone says, "She said X," when I literally had said "She said X," when I literally had said "She said X," when I literally had said the exact opposite of that. There's the exact opposite of that. There's the exact opposite of that. There's something very alienating and something very alienating and something very alienating and disorienting about disorienting about disorienting about feeling like you are talking but people feeling like you are talking but people feeling like you are talking but people are deliberately not hearing you. are deliberately not hearing you. are deliberately not hearing you. >> Surely part of that must be a sense that >> Surely part of that must be a sense that >> Surely part of that must be a sense that other people could pattern match it as other people could pattern match it as other people could pattern match it as truth though because if not if if I call truth though because if not if if I call truth though because if not if if I call you fat you're not fat. So you go well you fat you're not fat. So you go well you fat you're not fat. So you go well it's funny if if I say that you're too it's funny if if I say that you're too it's funny if if I say that you're too tanned you've got too much fake tan on. tanned you've got too much fake tan on. tanned you've got too much fake tan on. You go I'm not wearing any fake tan. You go I'm not wearing any fake tan. You go I'm not wearing any fake tan. >> Yeah. So obviously that's not going to >> Yeah. So obviously that's not going to >> Yeah. So obviously that's not going to land. So that's what I mean that the land. So that's what I mean that the land. So that's what I mean that the lens through which these criticisms at lens through which these criticisms at lens through which these criticisms at least seem to bite the most are someone least seem to bite the most are someone least seem to bite the most are someone somewhere might believe that this could somewhere might believe that this could somewhere might believe that this could be true be true be true >> version of me. That's true. The author >> version of me. That's true. The author >> version of me. That's true. The author Sally Rooney, she's a novelist, an Irish Sally Rooney, she's a novelist, an Irish Sally Rooney, she's a novelist, an Irish novelist, and she talks in one of her novelist, and she talks in one of her novelist, and she talks in one of her books about there's you, the author, and books about there's you, the author, and books about there's you, the author, and then there's a version of you that wears then there's a version of you that wears then there's a version of you that wears your name and has your face and everyone your name and has your face and everyone your name and has your face and everyone talks about her and but it's not you. talks about her and but it's not you. talks about her and but it's not you. And in some ways she's saying the exact And in some ways she's saying the exact And in some ways she's saying the exact opposite things. And so you almost feel opposite things. And so you almost feel opposite things. And so you almost feel like there's like a doppelganger of you like there's like a doppelganger of you like there's like a doppelganger of you walking around that is making the exact walking around that is making the exact walking around that is making the exact opposite argument that you are. And I opposite argument that you are. And I opposite argument that you are. And I think you're right that it's thinking think you're right that it's thinking think you're right that it's thinking that other people are going to think that other people are going to think that other people are going to think that she's mean. that she's mean. that she's mean. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Is so disorienting. >> Is so disorienting. >> Is so disorienting. >> This weird shadow page. >> This weird shadow page. >> This weird shadow page. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's also I think there's something >> It's also I think there's something >> It's also I think there's something about relationships like I don't know if about relationships like I don't know if about relationships like I don't know if you've ever been in a relationship where you've ever been in a relationship where you've ever been in a relationship where you say something and the other person you say something and the other person you say something and the other person doesn't hear it at all the way you doesn't hear it at all the way you doesn't hear it at all the way you intended and then you end up having this intended and then you end up having this intended and then you end up having this fight where you're like but I didn't say fight where you're like but I didn't say fight where you're like but I didn't say that but you can't convince the other that but you can't convince the other that but you can't convince the other person that you didn't say that and person that you didn't say that and person that you didn't say that and you're really just you're really just you're really just >> seeing the world and you're hearing >> seeing the world and you're hearing >> seeing the world and you're hearing words in a totally different way and it words in a totally different way and it words in a totally different way and it makes you feel really estranged from makes you feel really estranged from makes you feel really estranged from other people I think when that happens other people I think when that happens other people I think when that happens like what's what's going on that I can't like what's what's going on that I can't like what's what's going on that I can't get my message across clearly. And as a get my message across clearly. And as a get my message across clearly. And as a writer, words are so important to me. writer, words are so important to me. writer, words are so important to me. They're the way that I feel like I make They're the way that I feel like I make They're the way that I feel like I make sense of the world and I make change in sense of the world and I make change in sense of the world and I make change in the world. And so when I when I feel the world. And so when I when I feel the world. And so when I when I feel like my words are saying this and like my words are saying this and like my words are saying this and someone is saying the exact opposite, I someone is saying the exact opposite, I someone is saying the exact opposite, I feel like, wait, what what is happening feel like, wait, what what is happening feel like, wait, what what is happening here? Um, my dad was really helpful in here? Um, my dad was really helpful in here? Um, my dad was really helpful in the whole process. So my dad was a the whole process. So my dad was a the whole process. So my dad was a fighter pilot for the US Navy when he fighter pilot for the US Navy when he fighter pilot for the US Navy when he was a young man and he just kept saying was a young man and he just kept saying was a young man and he just kept saying you always get, you know, the the most you always get, you know, the the most you always get, you know, the the most uh fire when you're directly over the uh fire when you're directly over the uh fire when you're directly over the target. And I just kept remembering that target. And I just kept remembering that target. And I just kept remembering that that there's something about that there's something about that there's something about genetics, which is a scientific field, genetics, which is a scientific field, genetics, which is a scientific field, that really gets to it really touches on that really gets to it really touches on that really gets to it really touches on issues that people think are really issues that people think are really issues that people think are really important in their actual lives, not important in their actual lives, not important in their actual lives, not just academically. just academically. just academically. And so if I'm getting all of this fury And so if I'm getting all of this fury And so if I'm getting all of this fury about a book that I wrote as a college about a book that I wrote as a college about a book that I wrote as a college professor, I must actually be talking professor, I must actually be talking professor, I must actually be talking about something important to people about something important to people about something important to people >> on some deeper level, on some real low >> on some deeper level, on some real low >> on some deeper level, on some real low level. level. level. >> You did a big four million person study. >> You did a big four million person study. >> You did a big four million person study. You were a part of that. I did. What did You were a part of that. I did. What did You were a part of that. I did. What did you learn? you learn? you learn? >> Well, it wasn't just me. There's many >> Well, it wasn't just me. There's many >> Well, it wasn't just me. There's many co-authors. co-authors. co-authors. Um, science, especially with this as a Um, science, especially with this as a Um, science, especially with this as a is very much a group endeavor. And I was is very much a group endeavor. And I was is very much a group endeavor. And I was really lucky to work with two of my really lucky to work with two of my really lucky to work with two of my former trainees who are now independent former trainees who are now independent former trainees who are now independent scientists on that paper. Um so we scientists on that paper. Um so we scientists on that paper. Um so we pulled DNA from 4 million people mostly pulled DNA from 4 million people mostly pulled DNA from 4 million people mostly from um UK Bioank 23 and me customers from um UK Bioank 23 and me customers from um UK Bioank 23 and me customers um participants in a big study called um participants in a big study called um participants in a big study called all of us all of us all of us and we were looking at what genes are and we were looking at what genes are and we were looking at what genes are more common in people who have done one more common in people who have done one more common in people who have done one of seven things. So they have ADHD of seven things. So they have ADHD of seven things. So they have ADHD symptoms in childhood. symptoms in childhood. symptoms in childhood. um they had sex at a young age. They um they had sex at a young age. They um they had sex at a young age. They have more sexual partners. They have have more sexual partners. They have have more sexual partners. They have ever smoked pot. They are um engaging in ever smoked pot. They are um engaging in ever smoked pot. They are um engaging in what we call problematic alcohol use, what we call problematic alcohol use, what we call problematic alcohol use, which is drinking to the point that it which is drinking to the point that it which is drinking to the point that it causes problems in your life. Um they've causes problems in your life. Um they've causes problems in your life. Um they've ever smoked a cigarette and they ever smoked a cigarette and they ever smoked a cigarette and they describe themselves as someone who describe themselves as someone who describe themselves as someone who really likes to take risks. I'm a person really likes to take risks. I'm a person really likes to take risks. I'm a person who likes to take risks. So what we were who likes to take risks. So what we were who likes to take risks. So what we were looking at is genes that are more common looking at is genes that are more common looking at is genes that are more common in people who not just in do one of in people who not just in do one of in people who not just in do one of these things but are more common in any these things but are more common in any these things but are more common in any any one of these behaviors. Can we find any one of these behaviors. Can we find any one of these behaviors. Can we find genes that are just generally involved genes that are just generally involved genes that are just generally involved in being a risk taker? in being a risk taker? in being a risk taker? >> Is that suite of things altogether >> Is that suite of things altogether >> Is that suite of things altogether risk-taking? Where's the ADHD part come risk-taking? Where's the ADHD part come risk-taking? Where's the ADHD part come into that? into that? into that? >> Oh well ADHD is mo is impulsivity and >> Oh well ADHD is mo is impulsivity and >> Oh well ADHD is mo is impulsivity and hyperactivity. So so one way you can hyperactivity. So so one way you can hyperactivity. So so one way you can think about it is this is disinhibition. think about it is this is disinhibition. think about it is this is disinhibition. These are all of these things are These are all of these things are These are all of these things are behaviors that violate some rule, right? behaviors that violate some rule, right? behaviors that violate some rule, right? So someone says it's not healthy to So someone says it's not healthy to So someone says it's not healthy to smoke, you shouldn't drink if you have smoke, you shouldn't drink if you have smoke, you shouldn't drink if you have problems. Kids who have ADHD are get the problems. Kids who have ADHD are get the problems. Kids who have ADHD are get the diagnosis of ADHD because they're doing diagnosis of ADHD because they're doing diagnosis of ADHD because they're doing things in school that they shouldn't be things in school that they shouldn't be things in school that they shouldn't be doing. Um sexual behavior is moralized. doing. Um sexual behavior is moralized. doing. Um sexual behavior is moralized. So if you're having sex at 14 or if So if you're having sex at 14 or if So if you're having sex at 14 or if you're having sex with very many sexual you're having sex with very many sexual you're having sex with very many sexual partners, that's against kind of a partners, that's against kind of a partners, that's against kind of a conventional morality. So they're all conventional morality. So they're all conventional morality. So they're all things where people are engaging in a things where people are engaging in a things where people are engaging in a behavior in which they might experience behavior in which they might experience behavior in which they might experience consequences or might experience social consequences or might experience social consequences or might experience social judgment and they're doing it anyways. judgment and they're doing it anyways. judgment and they're doing it anyways. So there's a risk-taking element there So there's a risk-taking element there So there's a risk-taking element there and there's a kind of reward seeking and there's a kind of reward seeking and there's a kind of reward seeking element there. And there's nothing element there. And there's nothing element there. And there's nothing magical about those seven behaviors. magical about those seven behaviors. magical about those seven behaviors. they just happened to be the ones in they just happened to be the ones in they just happened to be the ones in which we had enough data where enough which we had enough data where enough which we had enough data where enough people had done them and we could gather people had done them and we could gather people had done them and we could gather enough genetic data from people. Um, and enough genetic data from people. Um, and enough genetic data from people. Um, and then we looked and saw what genes could then we looked and saw what genes could then we looked and saw what genes could we discover that are associated with all we discover that are associated with all we discover that are associated with all of these things. And then what else of these things. And then what else of these things. And then what else about a person's life do they project if about a person's life do they project if about a person's life do they project if we can tap into this um genetic we can tap into this um genetic we can tap into this um genetic liability, this genetic predisposition liability, this genetic predisposition liability, this genetic predisposition towards loss of risk takingaking? It's towards loss of risk takingaking? It's towards loss of risk takingaking? It's actually a follow-up to a study that we actually a follow-up to a study that we actually a follow-up to a study that we published a couple years ago. Um, so published a couple years ago. Um, so published a couple years ago. Um, so it's a similar concept but just more it's a similar concept but just more it's a similar concept but just more people this time which gives you more people this time which gives you more people this time which gives you more power. Um, and it's interesting power. Um, and it's interesting power. Um, and it's interesting how much people vary in those behaviors. how much people vary in those behaviors. how much people vary in those behaviors. So to just think of one of them which is So to just think of one of them which is So to just think of one of them which is number of sexual partners. number of number of sexual partners. number of number of sexual partners. number of sexual partners in our data set ranges sexual partners in our data set ranges sexual partners in our data set ranges from zero, so people who are lifelong from zero, so people who are lifelong from zero, so people who are lifelong abstinate to 99 because you're not abstinate to 99 because you're not abstinate to 99 because you're not allowed to put three digits of sexual allowed to put three digits of sexual allowed to put three digits of sexual partners into the survey. So, um it's partners into the survey. So, um it's partners into the survey. So, um it's really a whole range of human behavior. really a whole range of human behavior. really a whole range of human behavior. And so thinking about what are the genes And so thinking about what are the genes And so thinking about what are the genes that influence you at literally every that influence you at literally every that influence you at literally every stage of your lifespan from when you're stage of your lifespan from when you're stage of your lifespan from when you're a kid to you're turning into a sexually a kid to you're turning into a sexually a kid to you're turning into a sexually mature adolescent into you know mature adolescent into you know mature adolescent into you know substance use and risk-taking in substance use and risk-taking in substance use and risk-taking in adulthood. adulthood. adulthood. >> What got you thinking about wrongdoing >> What got you thinking about wrongdoing >> What got you thinking about wrongdoing and impulsivity and bad behavior, and impulsivity and bad behavior, and impulsivity and bad behavior, antisocial behavior? antisocial behavior? antisocial behavior? >> I've kind of always been interested in >> I've kind of always been interested in >> I've kind of always been interested in it. Maybe it's the opposite of me search it. Maybe it's the opposite of me search it. Maybe it's the opposite of me search because I was a very not cool not because I was a very not cool not because I was a very not cool not risk-taking adolescent. But when I my risk-taking adolescent. But when I my risk-taking adolescent. But when I my first job in science first job in science first job in science was in a um mouse lab. So it was a was in a um mouse lab. So it was a was in a um mouse lab. So it was a behavioral neuroscience lab that studied behavioral neuroscience lab that studied behavioral neuroscience lab that studied mice and it was studying opiate mice and it was studying opiate mice and it was studying opiate addiction and withdrawal in mice. So, it addiction and withdrawal in mice. So, it addiction and withdrawal in mice. So, it was getting mice addicted to morphine was getting mice addicted to morphine was getting mice addicted to morphine and then taking it away and seeing if we and then taking it away and seeing if we and then taking it away and seeing if we could manipulate something about their could manipulate something about their could manipulate something about their biology, about their brain to make them biology, about their brain to make them biology, about their brain to make them more or less addicted to that opiate more or less addicted to that opiate more or less addicted to that opiate substance. substance. substance. >> More resilient. >> More resilient. >> More resilient. >> Yeah. More resilient. Um, and this was I >> Yeah. More resilient. Um, and this was I >> Yeah. More resilient. Um, and this was I mean this was when I was a college mean this was when I was a college mean this was when I was a college freshman. So, 1999 to 2000. freshman. So, 1999 to 2000. freshman. So, 1999 to 2000. very you know the I when I started the very you know the I when I started the very you know the I when I started the draft of the human genome hadn't even draft of the human genome hadn't even draft of the human genome hadn't even been completed yet. been completed yet. been completed yet. >> Um but my PI was using a method where >> Um but my PI was using a method where >> Um but my PI was using a method where you manipulate how genes are expressed you manipulate how genes are expressed you manipulate how genes are expressed in the mouse brain. So my very first job in the mouse brain. So my very first job in the mouse brain. So my very first job in science my my only job before that in science my my only job before that in science my my only job before that had been being a waitress at this like had been being a waitress at this like had been being a waitress at this like diner in South Carolina that served meat diner in South Carolina that served meat diner in South Carolina that served meat and three vegetables and you got the and three vegetables and you got the and three vegetables and you got the church ladies. So I went from that to church ladies. So I went from that to church ladies. So I went from that to working in this lab where my job was to working in this lab where my job was to working in this lab where my job was to basically do little brain surgery on the basically do little brain surgery on the basically do little brain surgery on the mouse brains. So put them on this little mouse brains. So put them on this little mouse brains. So put them on this little apparatus and drill a hole in their apparatus and drill a hole in their apparatus and drill a hole in their heads and put a little shunt in so that heads and put a little shunt in so that heads and put a little shunt in so that we could inject things in this very we could inject things in this very we could inject things in this very particular spot in their brains. And I particular spot in their brains. And I particular spot in their brains. And I just thought this is awesome. Like this just thought this is awesome. Like this just thought this is awesome. Like this feels like science fiction to me. feels like science fiction to me. feels like science fiction to me. >> We're taking this behavior that I've >> We're taking this behavior that I've >> We're taking this behavior that I've always seen. Um, we can get into this if always seen. Um, we can get into this if always seen. Um, we can get into this if you want, but I was raised in a you want, but I was raised in a you want, but I was raised in a fundamentalist household in a very fundamentalist household in a very fundamentalist household in a very evangelical Christian household. So, I evangelical Christian household. So, I evangelical Christian household. So, I was raised to think of drug use entirely was raised to think of drug use entirely was raised to think of drug use entirely in moral terms, like this is about in moral terms, like this is about in moral terms, like this is about willpower. This is about um your willpower. This is about um your willpower. This is about um your relationship with Jesus. And now we're relationship with Jesus. And now we're relationship with Jesus. And now we're modeling it in mice and now we're going modeling it in mice and now we're going modeling it in mice and now we're going to manipulate something in mice brains to manipulate something in mice brains to manipulate something in mice brains in order to see if we can change that in order to see if we can change that in order to see if we can change that behavior. it has something to do with behavior. it has something to do with behavior. it has something to do with their genes. I just thought that was an their genes. I just thought that was an their genes. I just thought that was an incredible paradigm shift. Um, and so incredible paradigm shift. Um, and so incredible paradigm shift. Um, and so I've I I never really switched my I've I I never really switched my I've I I never really switched my interest in risk-taking phenotypes or interest in risk-taking phenotypes or interest in risk-taking phenotypes or substance use phenotypes. What I substance use phenotypes. What I substance use phenotypes. What I switched was the species. Instead of switched was the species. Instead of switched was the species. Instead of studying it in mice, now I study it in studying it in mice, now I study it in studying it in mice, now I study it in people. people. people. >> What's the talk to me about the >> What's the talk to me about the >> What's the talk to me about the evolutionary roots before we even get evolutionary roots before we even get evolutionary roots before we even get into the really really spicy stuff of into the really really spicy stuff of into the really really spicy stuff of the [laughter] heritability of the [laughter] heritability of the [laughter] heritability of antisocial behavior and things like antisocial behavior and things like antisocial behavior and things like that? Let's the pallet cleanser of that? Let's the pallet cleanser of that? Let's the pallet cleanser of evolutionary psychology. What's the evolutionary psychology. What's the evolutionary psychology. What's the evolutionary roots of sort of evolutionary roots of sort of evolutionary roots of sort of aggression, dominance, impulsivity, that aggression, dominance, impulsivity, that aggression, dominance, impulsivity, that kind of kind of kind of >> I mean, I think we're still figuring it >> I mean, I think we're still figuring it >> I mean, I think we're still figuring it out. In fact, I have a project on this out. In fact, I have a project on this out. In fact, I have a project on this going on right now to think about can we going on right now to think about can we going on right now to think about can we trace some of the the specific evolution trace some of the the specific evolution trace some of the the specific evolution of the genes that are associated with of the genes that are associated with of the genes that are associated with these behaviors. Um but there is a these behaviors. Um but there is a these behaviors. Um but there is a theory that essentially humans have theory that essentially humans have theory that essentially humans have selfdomemesticated selfdomemesticated selfdomemesticated >> that they if you look at us compared to >> that they if you look at us compared to >> that they if you look at us compared to our most you know closest genetic our most you know closest genetic our most you know closest genetic ancestor in comparison to chimpanzees ancestor in comparison to chimpanzees ancestor in comparison to chimpanzees >> all of us all humans males and females >> all of us all humans males and females >> all of us all humans males and females juveniles and adults engage in less juveniles and adults engage in less juveniles and adults engage in less aggression more cooperation. aggression more cooperation. aggression more cooperation. um our physiology has changed in ways um our physiology has changed in ways um our physiology has changed in ways that are less aggressive. We have, you that are less aggressive. We have, you that are less aggressive. We have, you know, we've lost our big canines and we know, we've lost our big canines and we know, we've lost our big canines and we don't have the same huge jaw in the same don't have the same huge jaw in the same don't have the same huge jaw in the same way. And so there's some interesting way. And so there's some interesting way. And so there's some interesting theories about um essentially humans theories about um essentially humans theories about um essentially humans in their long journey towards becoming in their long journey towards becoming in their long journey towards becoming this incredibly cooperative species. this incredibly cooperative species. this incredibly cooperative species. We selected each other to be We selected each other to be We selected each other to be more self-controlled, more more self-controlled, more more self-controlled, more self-regulated. self-regulated. self-regulated. >> At the same time, >> At the same time, >> At the same time, there's there's a counterveailing force there's there's a counterveailing force there's there's a counterveailing force there, which is that um there's a lot of there, which is that um there's a lot of there, which is that um there's a lot of ways in which some risk-taking is ways in which some risk-taking is ways in which some risk-taking is rewarded in a society and even necessary rewarded in a society and even necessary rewarded in a society and even necessary in a society. So I talk in my book about in a society. So I talk in my book about in a society. So I talk in my book about this one study where they looked at who this one study where they looked at who this one study where they looked at who was most likely to be a successful was most likely to be a successful was most likely to be a successful entrepreneur by the age of I think 35 in entrepreneur by the age of I think 35 in entrepreneur by the age of I think 35 in the United States. And it was people who the United States. And it was people who the United States. And it was people who had some level of you know what we might had some level of you know what we might had some level of you know what we might think of as social privilege or so think of as social privilege or so think of as social privilege or so material resources. So white men from material resources. So white men from material resources. So white men from middle to upper income families. Um but middle to upper income families. Um but middle to upper income families. Um but amongst them who was most likely to amongst them who was most likely to amongst them who was most likely to become an entrepreneur become an entrepreneur become an entrepreneur >> when controlling for white men from >> when controlling for white men from >> when controlling for white men from upper income families. upper income families. upper income families. >> Yeah. Like amongst people who might have >> Yeah. Like amongst people who might have >> Yeah. Like amongst people who might have >> because there's lots of them and not all >> because there's lots of them and not all >> because there's lots of them and not all of them not many of them become of them not many of them become of them not many of them become successful entrepreneurs. successful entrepreneurs. successful entrepreneurs. >> Exactly. Most of them do not. Right. So >> Exactly. Most of them do not. Right. So >> Exactly. Most of them do not. Right. So amongst people who might say have enough amongst people who might say have enough amongst people who might say have enough resources resources resources >> raw materials >> raw materials >> raw materials >> raw materials >> raw materials >> raw materials um who does become a successful um who does become a successful um who does become a successful entrepreneur and one of the best entrepreneur and one of the best entrepreneur and one of the best predictors is did you engage in some predictors is did you engage in some predictors is did you engage in some delinquency as a teenager? risk-taking. delinquency as a teenager? risk-taking. delinquency as a teenager? risk-taking. >> Yeah. So, did you ever get did you were >> Yeah. So, did you ever get did you were >> Yeah. So, did you ever get did you were you ever arrested? Did you ever paint you ever arrested? Did you ever paint you ever arrested? Did you ever paint graffiti? Did you ever do not serious graffiti? Did you ever do not serious graffiti? Did you ever do not serious not serious aggressive delinquency, but not serious aggressive delinquency, but not serious aggressive delinquency, but some ant something that was a little bit some ant something that was a little bit some ant something that was a little bit rulebreaking, maybe got in trouble at rulebreaking, maybe got in trouble at rulebreaking, maybe got in trouble at school, maybe got in trouble with the school, maybe got in trouble with the school, maybe got in trouble with the law. And you know, entrepreneurs like law. And you know, entrepreneurs like law. And you know, entrepreneurs like that tracks, right? Like you can think that tracks, right? Like you can think that tracks, right? Like you can think of them as people who are like of them as people who are like of them as people who are like there's a conventional way of doing there's a conventional way of doing there's a conventional way of doing things and I don't really care that things and I don't really care that things and I don't really care that that's the conventional way of doing that's the conventional way of doing that's the conventional way of doing things. I want to do it my own way. And things. I want to do it my own way. And things. I want to do it my own way. And so I think that as a species we we need so I think that as a species we we need so I think that as a species we we need cooperation but then we also need some cooperation but then we also need some cooperation but then we also need some level of risk takingaking some outliers. level of risk takingaking some outliers. level of risk takingaking some outliers. We need some level of deviance in order We need some level of deviance in order We need some level of deviance in order to push the society forward too. And so to push the society forward too. And so to push the society forward too. And so these things are kind of always these things are kind of always these things are kind of always intentioned. the level of deviance is intentioned. the level of deviance is intentioned. the level of deviance is less because the water line of less because the water line of less because the water line of domestication has also gone down gone domestication has also gone down gone domestication has also gone down gone down. Yeah, I think Rutka Bregman talks down. Yeah, I think Rutka Bregman talks down. Yeah, I think Rutka Bregman talks about the puppification about the puppification about the puppification >> is the term he uses. I was talking to >> is the term he uses. I was talking to >> is the term he uses. I was talking to you before I came in about my friend you before I came in about my friend you before I came in about my friend Greg from Bloom and uh he I asked him Greg from Bloom and uh he I asked him Greg from Bloom and uh he I asked him how is it that you have managed to grow how is it that you have managed to grow how is it that you have managed to grow so quickly this huge company it's maybe so quickly this huge company it's maybe so quickly this huge company it's maybe going to be worth a billion dollars this going to be worth a billion dollars this going to be worth a billion dollars this year. and he year. and he year. and he unironically turned to me and said, "I unironically turned to me and said, "I unironically turned to me and said, "I just think I'm too [ __ ] to work out just think I'm too [ __ ] to work out just think I'm too [ __ ] to work out what risk is." what risk is." what risk is." [laughter] He's like, "I don't have It's [laughter] He's like, "I don't have It's [laughter] He's like, "I don't have It's not that I've overcome risk. It's that I not that I've overcome risk. It's that I not that I've overcome risk. It's that I don't have the capacity don't have the capacity don't have the capacity >> to be able to feel risk." He's like, "I >> to be able to feel risk." He's like, "I >> to be able to feel risk." He's like, "I just don't it just it sort of doesn't just don't it just it sort of doesn't just don't it just it sort of doesn't register for me." So, he just I put it register for me." So, he just I put it register for me." So, he just I put it all in black. all in black. all in black. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then put it all in black again. And >> And then put it all in black again. And >> And then put it all in black again. And put it all in black again. Put it He put it all in black again. Put it He put it all in black again. Put it He just keeps on betting the house. And just keeps on betting the house. And just keeps on betting the house. And obviously that's going to be a obviously that's going to be a obviously that's going to be a competitive advantage and you're going competitive advantage and you're going competitive advantage and you're going to end up with survivorship buyers, the to end up with survivorship buyers, the to end up with survivorship buyers, the ones who stick it out ones who stick it out ones who stick it out >> because there's a lot of people who are >> because there's a lot of people who are >> because there's a lot of people who are going to put it on black and they're going to put it on black and they're going to put it on black and they're going to lose. Yeah. Precisely. So, but going to lose. Yeah. Precisely. So, but going to lose. Yeah. Precisely. So, but you don't need you don't hear those you don't need you don't hear those you don't need you don't hear those stories, right? You get self. Okay. So, stories, right? You get self. Okay. So, stories, right? You get self. Okay. So, we have um we have um we have um >> humans need to cooperate more over time. >> humans need to cooperate more over time. >> humans need to cooperate more over time. Uh that means that we need to have more Uh that means that we need to have more Uh that means that we need to have more pro-social behavior. We need to be able pro-social behavior. We need to be able pro-social behavior. We need to be able to self-regulate. We need to not be to self-regulate. We need to not be to self-regulate. We need to not be deviating from norms. They become deviating from norms. They become deviating from norms. They become cultural norms which get enforced a cultural norms which get enforced a cultural norms which get enforced a little bit more too. We're worried about little bit more too. We're worried about little bit more too. We're worried about what other people think of us so on and what other people think of us so on and what other people think of us so on and so forth. And that opens up if you're so forth. And that opens up if you're so forth. And that opens up if you're going to be a Viking that wants to raid going to be a Viking that wants to raid going to be a Viking that wants to raid Lindesfan and pillage and come back and Lindesfan and pillage and come back and Lindesfan and pillage and come back and not have trauma about it. If you're not have trauma about it. If you're not have trauma about it. If you're going to be a person who aggressively going to be a person who aggressively going to be a person who aggressively goes to become chieftain and all the goes to become chieftain and all the goes to become chieftain and all the rest, there's some opportunities that rest, there's some opportunities that rest, there's some opportunities that open up. But overall, open up. But overall, open up. But overall, humans have built themselves into a humans have built themselves into a humans have built themselves into a pretty well regulated and self-regulated pretty well regulated and self-regulated pretty well regulated and self-regulated species. I mean compared to almost other species. I mean compared to almost other species. I mean compared to almost other all other species especially our primate all other species especially our primate all other species especially our primate relatives like we have the ability to relatives like we have the ability to relatives like we have the ability to forecast into the future the ability to forecast into the future the ability to forecast into the future the ability to anticipate well if I do this then this anticipate well if I do this then this anticipate well if I do this then this might happen and then this might happen might happen and then this might happen might happen and then this might happen and the ability to take seriously the and the ability to take seriously the and the ability to take seriously the consequences not just for ourselves but consequences not just for ourselves but consequences not just for ourselves but for other people. So compared to many for other people. So compared to many for other people. So compared to many other species, humans have an other species, humans have an other species, humans have an extraordinary amount of empathy, extraordinary amount of empathy, extraordinary amount of empathy, emotional empathy, the ability to feel emotional empathy, the ability to feel emotional empathy, the ability to feel the distress of other people, to be able the distress of other people, to be able the distress of other people, to be able to anticipate what the other person is to anticipate what the other person is to anticipate what the other person is feeling. And that's again across sexes, feeling. And that's again across sexes, feeling. And that's again across sexes, across genders. It's visible very early across genders. It's visible very early across genders. It's visible very early in life. in life. in life. >> So we have this architecture of >> So we have this architecture of >> So we have this architecture of self-regulation self-regulation self-regulation that exists for a reason. And then we that exists for a reason. And then we that exists for a reason. And then we also have I mean humans are just like an also have I mean humans are just like an also have I mean humans are just like an endlessly varying species, right? Like I endlessly varying species, right? Like I endlessly varying species, right? Like I I say in my book that in every crack in I say in my book that in every crack in I say in my book that in every crack in human sameness, we see evidence of the human sameness, we see evidence of the human sameness, we see evidence of the genotype genotype genotype >> because that's the grist for the >> because that's the grist for the >> because that's the grist for the evolutionary mill is us being evolutionary mill is us being evolutionary mill is us being genetically different from one another. genetically different from one another. genetically different from one another. And so you're going to see that genetic And so you're going to see that genetic And so you're going to see that genetic variation and risk-taking too. And variation and risk-taking too. And variation and risk-taking too. And that's not all. It can be very that's not all. It can be very that's not all. It can be very maladaptive at the extreme, but it's not maladaptive at the extreme, but it's not maladaptive at the extreme, but it's not maladaptive all the way through maladaptive all the way through maladaptive all the way through distribution. [clears throat] distribution. [clears throat] distribution. [clears throat] As another example, there's I mean this As another example, there's I mean this As another example, there's I mean this is not risk-taking per se, but I think is not risk-taking per se, but I think is not risk-taking per se, but I think it it exemplifies a similar point which it it exemplifies a similar point which it it exemplifies a similar point which is that if you look at the genes that is that if you look at the genes that is that if you look at the genes that are associated with schizophrenia, so are associated with schizophrenia, so are associated with schizophrenia, so with this very serious mental disorder with this very serious mental disorder with this very serious mental disorder characterized by psychoticis, you know, characterized by psychoticis, you know, characterized by psychoticis, you know, hearing things, believing things that hearing things, believing things that hearing things, believing things that aren't true. aren't true. aren't true. If you look at people who have a high If you look at people who have a high If you look at people who have a high number of those genetic variants but number of those genetic variants but number of those genetic variants but aren't schizophrenic, aren't schizophrenic, aren't schizophrenic, you see that they're more likely to be you see that they're more likely to be you see that they're more likely to be artists. They're more likely to be artists. They're more likely to be artists. They're more likely to be engineers. They're more likely to be engineers. They're more likely to be engineers. They're more likely to be musicians. They're more likely to be in musicians. They're more likely to be in musicians. They're more likely to be in creative professions, which is a creative professions, which is a creative professions, which is a hypothesis that we've had for a long hypothesis that we've had for a long hypothesis that we've had for a long time. And to the extent that these genes time. And to the extent that these genes time. And to the extent that these genes that are bad genes or disease genes are that are bad genes or disease genes are that are bad genes or disease genes are also predisposing people towards art and also predisposing people towards art and also predisposing people towards art and creativity, that's going to keep them creativity, that's going to keep them creativity, that's going to keep them around in the human gene pool for around in the human gene pool for around in the human gene pool for longer. And I think um my hypothesis is longer. And I think um my hypothesis is longer. And I think um my hypothesis is that is that it's a similar thing with that is that it's a similar thing with that is that it's a similar thing with disinhibition that at the extreme that's disinhibition that at the extreme that's disinhibition that at the extreme that's very maladaptive outcomes but you know very maladaptive outcomes but you know very maladaptive outcomes but you know to the extent that your friend has you to the extent that your friend has you to the extent that your friend has you know is maybe a little bit further down know is maybe a little bit further down know is maybe a little bit further down you get from bloom you get from bloom you get from bloom >> and then he gets lots of material >> and then he gets lots of material >> and then he gets lots of material resources and he has lots of mating resources and he has lots of mating resources and he has lots of mating opportunities and you know he's seen as opportunities and you know he's seen as opportunities and you know he's seen as a very attractive partner and that's a very attractive partner and that's a very attractive partner and that's going to increase it's going to keep going to increase it's going to keep going to increase it's going to keep those genes circulating around in the those genes circulating around in the those genes circulating around in the gene pool. It's an interesting challenge gene pool. It's an interesting challenge gene pool. It's an interesting challenge to look at pop stars or founders and to look at pop stars or founders and to look at pop stars or founders and think think think how many genes away from schizophrenia how many genes away from schizophrenia how many genes away from schizophrenia were you? [laughter] were you? [laughter] were you? [laughter] You know, like I look at uh I don't know You know, like I look at uh I don't know You know, like I look at uh I don't know like a Marilyn Manson or Machine Gun like a Marilyn Manson or Machine Gun like a Marilyn Manson or Machine Gun Kelly or something. I'm like you are I Kelly or something. I'm like you are I Kelly or something. I'm like you are I mean you're pretty skitsy as it is. mean you're pretty skitsy as it is. mean you're pretty skitsy as it is. You're fascinating a fascinating You're fascinating a fascinating You're fascinating a fascinating individual. Has such an interesting life individual. Has such an interesting life individual. Has such an interesting life with all you different directions that with all you different directions that with all you different directions that you've gone in and dressing in cool you've gone in and dressing in cool you've gone in and dressing in cool weird different ways. I reckon if I gave weird different ways. I reckon if I gave weird different ways. I reckon if I gave you just like another 5% of the genes, I you just like another 5% of the genes, I you just like another 5% of the genes, I reckon you could be completely crazy. reckon you could be completely crazy. reckon you could be completely crazy. >> Yeah. Or if you'd had just that much >> Yeah. Or if you'd had just that much >> Yeah. Or if you'd had just that much worse of a childhood environment, right? worse of a childhood environment, right? worse of a childhood environment, right? Like if you activated a little Yes. Like Like if you activated a little Yes. Like Like if you activated a little Yes. Like if they'd had the same genotype, but if they'd had the same genotype, but if they'd had the same genotype, but instead of it being channeled into instead of it being channeled into instead of it being channeled into creativity and being raised by nurturing creativity and being raised by nurturing creativity and being raised by nurturing parents of direct, parents of direct, parents of direct, >> you know, abuse or a maltreatment or >> you know, abuse or a maltreatment or >> you know, abuse or a maltreatment or real or or even like a birth, you know, real or or even like a birth, you know, real or or even like a birth, you know, an insert a difficult birth or labor and an insert a difficult birth or labor and an insert a difficult birth or labor and delivery experience of that kind of delivery experience of that kind of delivery experience of that kind of pushed them in that way. An inverse pushed them in that way. An inverse pushed them in that way. An inverse question would be to look at question would be to look at question would be to look at schizophrenic people and think how many schizophrenic people and think how many schizophrenic people and think how many of you were meant to be artists and you of you were meant to be artists and you of you were meant to be artists and you just had the the the wrong foundations just had the the the wrong foundations just had the the the wrong foundations for the first, you know, decade of your for the first, you know, decade of your for the first, you know, decade of your life. I have a a friend here in Austin life. I have a a friend here in Austin life. I have a a friend here in Austin who who who was in the sort of psychedelicy scene was in the sort of psychedelicy scene was in the sort of psychedelicy scene that is everywhere in the city for that is everywhere in the city for that is everywhere in the city for >> a good while. And I asked him, "Have you >> a good while. And I asked him, "Have you >> a good while. And I asked him, "Have you ever partaken in mushrooms or anything ever partaken in mushrooms or anything ever partaken in mushrooms or anything like that?" No, man. I've got I got a a like that?" No, man. I've got I got a a like that?" No, man. I've got I got a a few close relatives that have got few close relatives that have got few close relatives that have got schizophrenia and I think it was 28. schizophrenia and I think it was 28. schizophrenia and I think it was 28. >> So once you get past 30 or 35 I think >> So once you get past 30 or 35 I think >> So once you get past 30 or 35 I think the risk of it causing the risk of it causing the risk of it causing >> a schizophrenic break. But is this this >> a schizophrenic break. But is this this >> a schizophrenic break. But is this this this isn't just this isn't just this isn't just >> myth. This is actual truth. >> myth. This is actual truth. >> myth. This is actual truth. >> Truth. >> Truth. >> Truth. >> Oh, cool. >> Oh, cool. >> Oh, cool. >> Yeah. So I think there's evidence to >> Yeah. So I think there's evidence to >> Yeah. So I think there's evidence to suggest that people who have a family suggest that people who have a family suggest that people who have a family history of bipolar disorder and history of bipolar disorder and history of bipolar disorder and schizophrenia are potentially ne more schizophrenia are potentially ne more schizophrenia are potentially ne more negatively affected by cannabis and by negatively affected by cannabis and by negatively affected by cannabis and by hallucinogens by psychedelic drugs hallucinogens by psychedelic drugs hallucinogens by psychedelic drugs generally. And that the risk for that generally. And that the risk for that generally. And that the risk for that first psychotic break is really you know first psychotic break is really you know first psychotic break is really you know most commonly 15 to 30 like really most commonly 15 to 30 like really most commonly 15 to 30 like really concentrated in young adulthood. So, if concentrated in young adulthood. So, if concentrated in young adulthood. So, if you've made it to your to your 30s you've made it to your to your 30s you've made it to your to your 30s without your without experiencing a without your without experiencing a without your without experiencing a psychotic psych, psychotic psych, psychotic psych, >> you've probably pass through the period >> you've probably pass through the period >> you've probably pass through the period of major risk. That doesn't mean the of major risk. That doesn't mean the of major risk. That doesn't mean the risk is over, but it's a lot smaller. risk is over, but it's a lot smaller. risk is over, but it's a lot smaller. >> And that tracks also about brain >> And that tracks also about brain >> And that tracks also about brain development. Like, we don't really see a development. Like, we don't really see a development. Like, we don't really see a fully adult brain in terms of the wiring fully adult brain in terms of the wiring fully adult brain in terms of the wiring of the prefrontal cortex until 27 to 30. of the prefrontal cortex until 27 to 30. of the prefrontal cortex until 27 to 30. So, if you're thinking about So, if you're thinking about So, if you're thinking about not not adding something that might not not adding something that might not not adding something that might disrupt brain development while it's disrupt brain development while it's disrupt brain development while it's still cohering and then maybe it's a still cohering and then maybe it's a still cohering and then maybe it's a little bit safer uh after after that little bit safer uh after after that little bit safer uh after after that period of time. period of time. period of time. >> I told my kids if you ever want to try >> I told my kids if you ever want to try >> I told my kids if you ever want to try psychedelic drugs you should wait until psychedelic drugs you should wait until psychedelic drugs you should wait until after 30. after 30. after 30. >> Have you got schizophrenia in your >> Have you got schizophrenia in your >> Have you got schizophrenia in your family? family? family? >> We do not have schizophrenia in our >> We do not have schizophrenia in our >> We do not have schizophrenia in our family. family. family. >> You just didn't want them to have a >> You just didn't want them to have a >> You just didn't want them to have a psych psychotic break anyway. I I feel psych psychotic break anyway. I I feel psych psychotic break anyway. I I feel like psychedelic drugs are really great. like psychedelic drugs are really great. like psychedelic drugs are really great. I mean, what they do is they disrupt I mean, what they do is they disrupt I mean, what they do is they disrupt your normal patterns of brain your normal patterns of brain your normal patterns of brain communication and they allow parts of communication and they allow parts of communication and they allow parts of your brain to talk to each other that your brain to talk to each other that your brain to talk to each other that don't ordinarily talk to each other. And don't ordinarily talk to each other. And don't ordinarily talk to each other. And I think that can be really powerful in I think that can be really powerful in I think that can be really powerful in middle age when you're kind of tending middle age when you're kind of tending middle age when you're kind of tending towards a neurobiological rut. You know, towards a neurobiological rut. You know, towards a neurobiological rut. You know, when every day is the same and you're when every day is the same and you're when every day is the same and you're But I think your 20s are already a But I think your 20s are already a But I think your 20s are already a chaotic time. It's already a time of chaotic time. It's already a time of chaotic time. It's already a time of rapid development, rapid rapid development, rapid rapid development, rapid neuroplasticity. I don't think there's a neuroplasticity. I don't think there's a neuroplasticity. I don't think there's a need to add that additional element of need to add that additional element of need to add that additional element of disruption to it at that point in age. I disruption to it at that point in age. I disruption to it at that point in age. I mean, lots of people do, but mean, lots of people do, but mean, lots of people do, but and I don't know I is there great data and I don't know I is there great data and I don't know I is there great data on is it worse to do it at 25 versus 35 on is it worse to do it at 25 versus 35 on is it worse to do it at 25 versus 35 or riskier? I don't know. But I've done or riskier? I don't know. But I've done or riskier? I don't know. But I've done psychedelic drugs and I'm a psychologist psychedelic drugs and I'm a psychologist psychedelic drugs and I'm a psychologist that knows something about neurobiology. that knows something about neurobiology. that knows something about neurobiology. And my reading of the evidence was like, And my reading of the evidence was like, And my reading of the evidence was like, I don't think so this would be terrible, I don't think so this would be terrible, I don't think so this would be terrible, but I think you should wait until your but I think you should wait until your but I think you should wait until your brain is cooked before you mess with it. brain is cooked before you mess with it. brain is cooked before you mess with it. Before we continue, I've been drinking Before we continue, I've been drinking Before we continue, I've been drinking AG1 every morning for as long as I can AG1 every morning for as long as I can AG1 every morning for as long as I can remember now because it is the simplest remember now because it is the simplest remember now because it is the simplest way I found to cover my bases and not way I found to cover my bases and not way I found to cover my bases and not overthink nutrition. 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Just go to the link in the description Just go to the link in the description Just go to the link in the description below or head to below or head to below or head to drinkag.com/modernwisdom. drinkag.com/modernwisdom. drinkag.com/modernwisdom. That's drinkag1.com/modern wisdom. Do you think wrongdoing is wisdom. Do you think wrongdoing is something that's freely chosen then? Or something that's freely chosen then? Or something that's freely chosen then? Or are we [laughter] are we are we [laughter] are we are we [laughter] are we >> just going straight into the free will >> just going straight into the free will >> just going straight into the free will question here? question here? question here? >> Yeah. Well, look, are we born >> Yeah. Well, look, are we born >> Yeah. Well, look, are we born predisposed toward transgression? predisposed toward transgression? predisposed toward transgression? >> I think we're definitely predisposed to >> I think we're definitely predisposed to >> I think we're definitely predisposed to our transgressions. I think that luck our transgressions. I think that luck our transgressions. I think that luck the luck of having your genes, the luck the luck of having your genes, the luck the luck of having your genes, the luck of having your parents, the luck of how of having your parents, the luck of how of having your parents, the luck of how those have combined. those have combined. those have combined. um the choices that you make when you're um the choices that you make when you're um the choices that you make when you're not really old enough to know the not really old enough to know the not really old enough to know the ramifications of those choices. You ramifications of those choices. You ramifications of those choices. You know, the choices that you make as a know, the choices that you make as a know, the choices that you make as a young teenager, all of that really shape young teenager, all of that really shape young teenager, all of that really shape the person that you are. And so that the person that you are. And so that the person that you are. And so that person might be will might certainly person might be will might certainly person might be will might certainly experience themselves as freely experience themselves as freely experience themselves as freely choosing. But the person who is doing choosing. But the person who is doing choosing. But the person who is doing the choosing, the person that is the choosing, the person that is the choosing, the person that is deciding between the options, deciding between the options, deciding between the options, that person is so profoundly shaped by that person is so profoundly shaped by that person is so profoundly shaped by factors outside of their control factors outside of their control factors outside of their control >> on a set of train tracks. >> on a set of train tracks. >> on a set of train tracks. >> Yeah. I mean I I find the free will >> Yeah. I mean I I find the free will >> Yeah. I mean I I find the free will question question question actually I find the free will question actually I find the free will question actually I find the free will question not not the most interesting question not not the most interesting question not not the most interesting question because the question of do we have free because the question of do we have free because the question of do we have free will is is a question about all of us will is is a question about all of us will is is a question about all of us either all humans have free will or all either all humans have free will or all either all humans have free will or all humans don't have free will and even if humans don't have free will and even if humans don't have free will and even if we don't have free will we still have to we don't have free will we still have to we don't have free will we still have to figure out how to treat each other and figure out how to treat each other and figure out how to treat each other and we still have to figure out how to get we still have to figure out how to get we still have to figure out how to get on with the business of life. on with the business of life. on with the business of life. >> I'm more interested in the question of >> I'm more interested in the question of >> I'm more interested in the question of um um um what given the science what given the science what given the science do we know about how our genes, our do we know about how our genes, our do we know about how our genes, our environments have shaped us? And then environments have shaped us? And then environments have shaped us? And then given that given that we definitely know given that given that we definitely know given that given that we definitely know that um how shaped we are by those that um how shaped we are by those that um how shaped we are by those forces forces forces >> what role should that play in punishment >> what role should that play in punishment >> what role should that play in punishment in reward and how we and and again in in reward and how we and and again in in reward and how we and and again in how we treat each other. how we treat each other. how we treat each other. >> I completely agree. I'm not >> I completely agree. I'm not >> I completely agree. I'm not >> particularly interested in the free will >> particularly interested in the free will >> particularly interested in the free will question. Anakah Harris been on. She was question. Anakah Harris been on. She was question. Anakah Harris been on. She was great. Sam's been on. I know you know great. Sam's been on. I know you know great. Sam's been on. I know you know him. Like cool. Alex Okconor, one of my him. Like cool. Alex Okconor, one of my him. Like cool. Alex Okconor, one of my friends is big into this. Yeah. friends is big into this. Yeah. friends is big into this. Yeah. >> It's fine. It's okay, but to me it feels >> It's fine. It's okay, but to me it feels >> It's fine. It's okay, but to me it feels like a little bit of a cognitive dead like a little bit of a cognitive dead like a little bit of a cognitive dead end. I'm sure maybe I'm just not smart end. I'm sure maybe I'm just not smart end. I'm sure maybe I'm just not smart enough to fully I I I appreciate the the enough to fully I I I appreciate the the enough to fully I I I appreciate the the arguments of determinism and arguments of determinism and arguments of determinism and compatibilism so on and so forth. Uh but compatibilism so on and so forth. Uh but compatibilism so on and so forth. Uh but for me, a much more sort of functionally for me, a much more sort of functionally for me, a much more sort of functionally interesting one is to assume that we do interesting one is to assume that we do interesting one is to assume that we do and then play with the the variables and then play with the the variables and then play with the the variables inside of it. inside of it. inside of it. >> Inside of it. >> Inside of it. >> Inside of it. >> Yeah. Okay. This is the sandbox that >> Yeah. Okay. This is the sandbox that >> Yeah. Okay. This is the sandbox that we're in. There's a a cool idea that uh we're in. There's a a cool idea that uh we're in. There's a a cool idea that uh Derek Thompson came up with. But not Derek Thompson came up with. But not Derek Thompson came up with. But not Derek Thompson, sorry. uh uh uh Derek Thompson, sorry. uh uh uh Derek Thompson, sorry. uh uh uh Derek Sitters uh and he says uh Derek Sitters uh and he says uh Derek Sitters uh and he says uh functionally true but literally false. functionally true but literally false. functionally true but literally false. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And something which is functionally true >> And something which is functionally true >> And something which is functionally true but uh literally false but functionally but uh literally false but functionally but uh literally false but functionally true would be a belief that we have free true would be a belief that we have free true would be a belief that we have free will. will. will. >> Oh that's >> Oh that's >> Oh that's >> like even if you're a determinist acting >> like even if you're a determinist acting >> like even if you're a determinist acting as if you're not makes your life better as if you're not makes your life better as if you're not makes your life better because you don't outsource your agency. because you don't outsource your agency. because you don't outsource your agency. Something that would be uh literally Something that would be uh literally Something that would be uh literally false but functionally true might be false but functionally true might be false but functionally true might be porcupines can throw their quills. porcupines can throw their quills. porcupines can throw their quills. [laughter] They can't. They're not dark, [laughter] They can't. They're not dark, [laughter] They can't. They're not dark, but if you give them a wide enough but if you give them a wide enough but if you give them a wide enough birth, birth, birth, >> they can do project them. >> they can do project them. >> they can do project them. >> Yeah. You you you're safer. You're more >> Yeah. You you you're safer. You're more >> Yeah. You you you're safer. You're more likely to be safe. Um pigs are uniquely likely to be safe. Um pigs are uniquely likely to be safe. Um pigs are uniquely dirty animals, morally dirty animals, dirty animals, morally dirty animals, dirty animals, morally dirty animals, and you shouldn't eat them. They're and you shouldn't eat them. They're and you shouldn't eat them. They're morally just the same as pretty much any morally just the same as pretty much any morally just the same as pretty much any other animal. Uh but their skin does other animal. Uh but their skin does other animal. Uh but their skin does carry a higher pathogen load, especially carry a higher pathogen load, especially carry a higher pathogen load, especially if you're in sort of Middle Eastern if you're in sort of Middle Eastern if you're in sort of Middle Eastern style. So again, literally false, but style. So again, literally false, but style. So again, literally false, but functionally true. functionally true. functionally true. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um uh treat the gun as if it's always >> Um uh treat the gun as if it's always >> Um uh treat the gun as if it's always loaded. loaded. loaded. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um so all of these things are >> Um so all of these things are >> Um so all of these things are interesting. Anyway, that's my that's my interesting. Anyway, that's my that's my interesting. Anyway, that's my that's my position on that. Okay. So position on that. Okay. So position on that. Okay. So >> I agree. I mean, I think the I think the >> I agree. I mean, I think the I think the >> I agree. I mean, I think the I think the free will question is intellectually free will question is intellectually free will question is intellectually interesting but of limited practical interesting but of limited practical interesting but of limited practical utility for a lot of the questions that utility for a lot of the questions that utility for a lot of the questions that we have. So, for example, someone runs we have. So, for example, someone runs we have. So, for example, someone runs someone else over with their car and you someone else over with their car and you someone else over with their car and you learn that that person had epilepsy and learn that that person had epilepsy and learn that that person had epilepsy and they were having a seizure when they did they were having a seizure when they did they were having a seizure when they did it. And then you learn that that person it. And then you learn that that person it. And then you learn that that person knew they were epileptic but didn't take knew they were epileptic but didn't take knew they were epileptic but didn't take their medication. And then you learn their medication. And then you learn their medication. And then you learn that that person um doesn't have that that person um doesn't have that that person um doesn't have epilepsy epilepsy epilepsy but was having a panic attack because but was having a panic attack because but was having a panic attack because they have a history of extreme childhood they have a history of extreme childhood they have a history of extreme childhood maltreatment maltreatment maltreatment and then you find out that no it's not and then you find out that no it's not and then you find out that no it's not that but they're that but they're that but they're >> make it stop. >> make it stop. >> make it stop. >> Yeah. So all of those are different >> Yeah. So all of those are different >> Yeah. So all of those are different reasons, right? So we can think of like reasons, right? So we can think of like reasons, right? So we can think of like it's a seizure. it's a seizure. it's a seizure. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> It's a seizure that's governed by this >> It's a seizure that's governed by this >> It's a seizure that's governed by this medication choice. It's a panic attack. medication choice. It's a panic attack. medication choice. It's a panic attack. It's panic attack that's linked to their It's panic attack that's linked to their It's panic attack that's linked to their um um um >> mistreatment, >> mistreatment, >> mistreatment, >> their mistreatment history. Um it's none >> their mistreatment history. Um it's none >> their mistreatment history. Um it's none of those things. They seem to have mowed of those things. They seem to have mowed of those things. They seem to have mowed someone down in cold blood, someone down in cold blood, someone down in cold blood, >> but their father was also in prison for >> but their father was also in prison for >> but their father was also in prison for a violent crime and their mother is also a violent crime and their mother is also a violent crime and their mother is also in prison for a violent crime and they in prison for a violent crime and they in prison for a violent crime and they might have inherited a tendency. We have might have inherited a tendency. We have might have inherited a tendency. We have all sorts of wild intuitions and people all sorts of wild intuitions and people all sorts of wild intuitions and people really differ in their intuitions about really differ in their intuitions about really differ in their intuitions about all those scenarios about who who's the all those scenarios about who who's the all those scenarios about who who's the most culpable and who's the most most culpable and who's the most most culpable and who's the most blameless out of all of those. And the blameless out of all of those. And the blameless out of all of those. And the free will question doesn't help you, free will question doesn't help you, free will question doesn't help you, >> right? It's like >> right? It's like >> right? It's like >> from the perspective of determinism, >> from the perspective of determinism, >> from the perspective of determinism, epilepsy and the choice not to take your epilepsy and the choice not to take your epilepsy and the choice not to take your epilepsy medication and the being the epilepsy medication and the being the epilepsy medication and the being the psychopathic child of two psychopaths psychopathic child of two psychopaths psychopathic child of two psychopaths are all the same. But that's not how are all the same. But that's not how are all the same. But that's not how people reason about things. Y and part people reason about things. Y and part people reason about things. Y and part of what I was interested in this book of what I was interested in this book of what I was interested in this book project is, project is, project is, >> okay, from the perspective of academic >> okay, from the perspective of academic >> okay, from the perspective of academic philosophy, these might all be the same, philosophy, these might all be the same, philosophy, these might all be the same, but from the perspective of the average but from the perspective of the average but from the perspective of the average judge or juror or person in relationship judge or juror or person in relationship judge or juror or person in relationship trying to think about why did this trying to think about why did this trying to think about why did this person hurt me and should I forgive person hurt me and should I forgive person hurt me and should I forgive them? Free will doesn't help us solve them? Free will doesn't help us solve them? Free will doesn't help us solve that problem. And and why do we reason that problem. And and why do we reason that problem. And and why do we reason so differently? so differently? so differently? >> Literally true. about functionally >> Literally true. about functionally >> Literally true. about functionally false. Literally true about functionally false. Literally true about functionally false. Literally true about functionally false. All right. Heritability of false. All right. Heritability of false. All right. Heritability of antisocial behavior. antisocial behavior. antisocial behavior. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What's it? How does that look? Give me >> What's it? How does that look? Give me >> What's it? How does that look? Give me the suite of the suite of the suite of >> the suite of it. Okay. So, antisocial >> the suite of it. Okay. So, antisocial >> the suite of it. Okay. So, antisocial behavior are doing things persistently behavior are doing things persistently behavior are doing things persistently that violate social norms, moral norms, that violate social norms, moral norms, that violate social norms, moral norms, the rights of others. And so in the rights of others. And so in the rights of others. And so in childhood this looks like skipping childhood this looks like skipping childhood this looks like skipping school, lying to parents, that's mild school, lying to parents, that's mild school, lying to parents, that's mild forms, to robbery to stealing to hurting forms, to robbery to stealing to hurting forms, to robbery to stealing to hurting another person, beating them up to another person, beating them up to another person, beating them up to torturing the family cat, cruelty to torturing the family cat, cruelty to torturing the family cat, cruelty to animals. What we see is that the animals. What we see is that the animals. What we see is that the heritability, which is to back up a heritability, which is to back up a heritability, which is to back up a second, heritability is are people who second, heritability is are people who second, heritability is are people who are more genetically alike more are more genetically alike more are more genetically alike more behaviorally alike. So um we see very behaviorally alike. So um we see very behaviorally alike. So um we see very high heritability 80% for schizophrenia. high heritability 80% for schizophrenia. high heritability 80% for schizophrenia. So identical twins are not perfectly So identical twins are not perfectly So identical twins are not perfectly similar for schizophrenia but if your similar for schizophrenia but if your similar for schizophrenia but if your identical twin has schizophrenia you identical twin has schizophrenia you identical twin has schizophrenia you have a 50/50 shot of developing yourself have a 50/50 shot of developing yourself have a 50/50 shot of developing yourself which is way higher than a base rate of which is way higher than a base rate of which is way higher than a base rate of 1%. So that's 1%. So that's 1%. So that's >> thought you said it was 80%. >> thought you said it was 80%. >> thought you said it was 80%. >> So oh the the percent of variance is >> So oh the the percent of variance is >> So oh the the percent of variance is 80%. Um, so, so that's kind of a 80%. Um, so, so that's kind of a 80%. Um, so, so that's kind of a benchmark that I think that people can benchmark that I think that people can benchmark that I think that people can have in their heads about like a highly have in their heads about like a highly have in their heads about like a highly heritable mental disorder is something heritable mental disorder is something heritable mental disorder is something like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. What we see is that childhood antisocial What we see is that childhood antisocial What we see is that childhood antisocial behavior is nearly as heritable as behavior is nearly as heritable as behavior is nearly as heritable as schizophrenia, schizophrenia, schizophrenia, particularly if you're looking at kids particularly if you're looking at kids particularly if you're looking at kids who also have what is called unemotional who also have what is called unemotional who also have what is called unemotional traits. So callous unemotional traits is traits. So callous unemotional traits is traits. So callous unemotional traits is basically like psychopathy in children. basically like psychopathy in children. basically like psychopathy in children. So children who So children who So children who hurt others, break rules, upset their hurt others, break rules, upset their hurt others, break rules, upset their parents and don't feel bad about it, parents and don't feel bad about it, parents and don't feel bad about it, don't feel guilty about it. And that's don't feel guilty about it. And that's don't feel guilty about it. And that's not just risk-taking. That's not just I not just risk-taking. That's not just I not just risk-taking. That's not just I want to do something and I am am risk want to do something and I am am risk want to do something and I am am risk tolerant. There's also an element of tolerant. There's also an element of tolerant. There's also an element of again callousness of lack of empathy again callousness of lack of empathy again callousness of lack of empathy towards towards towards whether other people are hurting in that whether other people are hurting in that whether other people are hurting in that scenario. So what we see is that in scenario. So what we see is that in scenario. So what we see is that in children who have you know early onset children who have you know early onset children who have you know early onset of antisocial behavior and antisocial of antisocial behavior and antisocial of antisocial behavior and antisocial behavior accompanied by these callous behavior accompanied by these callous behavior accompanied by these callous unemotional lack of guilt lack of unemotional lack of guilt lack of unemotional lack of guilt lack of remorse feelings. Some of the remorse feelings. Some of the remorse feelings. Some of the heritability estimates are also at 80% heritability estimates are also at 80% heritability estimates are also at 80% just as high as schizophrenia. just as high as schizophrenia. just as high as schizophrenia. Now, not every child who has antisocial Now, not every child who has antisocial Now, not every child who has antisocial behavior shows this lack of remorse, behavior shows this lack of remorse, behavior shows this lack of remorse, lack of empathy, and some of them seem lack of empathy, and some of them seem lack of empathy, and some of them seem to be, you know, dealing with to be, you know, dealing with to be, you know, dealing with environmental factors that are causing environmental factors that are causing environmental factors that are causing them to act out. So, they might have a them to act out. So, they might have a them to act out. So, they might have a trauma history, they might have a trauma history, they might have a trauma history, they might have a maltreatment history. So what you see is maltreatment history. So what you see is maltreatment history. So what you see is the heritability of antisocial behavior the heritability of antisocial behavior the heritability of antisocial behavior tends to be lower in those kids. That tends to be lower in those kids. That tends to be lower in those kids. That seems to be more of a response to your seems to be more of a response to your seems to be more of a response to your environmental circumstances. environmental circumstances. environmental circumstances. Whereas it's the kids where you look at Whereas it's the kids where you look at Whereas it's the kids where you look at the parents and you're like these seem the parents and you're like these seem the parents and you're like these seem to be completely average parent. They're to be completely average parent. They're to be completely average parent. They're not maltreating the child. No one's not maltreating the child. No one's not maltreating the child. No one's living in poverty. They're not living in living in poverty. They're not living in living in poverty. They're not living in a highle environment and this kid is a highle environment and this kid is a highle environment and this kid is still acting anti in this antisocial way still acting anti in this antisocial way still acting anti in this antisocial way and doesn't feel bad about it. that is and doesn't feel bad about it. that is and doesn't feel bad about it. that is the most heritable kind of subtype of the most heritable kind of subtype of the most heritable kind of subtype of conduct problems. Um, and it's a real conduct problems. Um, and it's a real conduct problems. Um, and it's a real problem in psychiatry because parents problem in psychiatry because parents problem in psychiatry because parents come to the psychiatrist or the doctor's come to the psychiatrist or the doctor's come to the psychiatrist or the doctor's office or the therapist's office and office or the therapist's office and office or the therapist's office and they're like, "My kid is aggressive they're like, "My kid is aggressive they're like, "My kid is aggressive >> and my kid doesn't feel bad about the >> and my kid doesn't feel bad about the >> and my kid doesn't feel bad about the fact they're aggressive." And that is fact they're aggressive." And that is fact they're aggressive." And that is the form of child mental health problems the form of child mental health problems the form of child mental health problems for which we have some of some of the we for which we have some of some of the we for which we have some of some of the we have the fewest effective treatments for have the fewest effective treatments for have the fewest effective treatments for compared to say my child is depressed or compared to say my child is depressed or compared to say my child is depressed or my child is anxious. my child is anxious. my child is anxious. >> You know even my child even if your >> You know even my child even if your >> You know even my child even if your child is manic there's medication for child is manic there's medication for child is manic there's medication for that. It's not going to cure it but it's that. It's not going to cure it but it's that. It's not going to cure it but it's going to manage the symptoms. Whereas going to manage the symptoms. Whereas going to manage the symptoms. Whereas the persistently antisocial children, the persistently antisocial children, the persistently antisocial children, it's we're we're we are at the limit it's we're we're we are at the limit it's we're we're we are at the limit scientifically of knowing how to how to scientifically of knowing how to how to scientifically of knowing how to how to effectively help them and help their effectively help them and help their effectively help them and help their families. families. families. [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] >> How do you think most people >> How do you think most people >> How do you think most people typically interpret the behavior of a typically interpret the behavior of a typically interpret the behavior of a kid like that and what's a different kid like that and what's a different kid like that and what's a different frame that you would give them using a frame that you would give them using a frame that you would give them using a behavioral genetic lens? behavioral genetic lens? behavioral genetic lens? >> Yeah. So I think often people describe >> Yeah. So I think often people describe >> Yeah. So I think often people describe interacting with interacting with interacting with really antisocial children that they in really antisocial children that they in really antisocial children that they in their most common responses as avoidance their most common responses as avoidance their most common responses as avoidance or harshness. So a lot of times when or harshness. So a lot of times when or harshness. So a lot of times when people are very callous children or people are very callous children or people are very callous children or adults you'll hear people say and makes adults you'll hear people say and makes adults you'll hear people say and makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand the hairs on the back of my neck stand the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. There's this sense that there's up. There's this sense that there's up. There's this sense that there's something eerie or off or off-putting something eerie or off or off-putting something eerie or off or off-putting about a child or an adult that doesn't about a child or an adult that doesn't about a child or an adult that doesn't seem to be displaying seem to be displaying seem to be displaying the kind of empathic distress at another the kind of empathic distress at another the kind of empathic distress at another person's distress that we typically see person's distress that we typically see person's distress that we typically see in other humans. And I think that Spidey in other humans. And I think that Spidey in other humans. And I think that Spidey sense feeling that my hair is on the sense feeling that my hair is on the sense feeling that my hair is on the back of my feeling. back of my feeling. back of my feeling. >> And I think it's a I think it's an old >> And I think it's a I think it's an old >> And I think it's a I think it's an old thing. Like I mean I think it's an thing. Like I mean I think it's an thing. Like I mean I think it's an evolutionarily old evolutionarily old evolutionarily old um mechanism to say okay there's um mechanism to say okay there's um mechanism to say okay there's something about the the way this something about the the way this something about the the way this organism organism organism um um um >> or or and or they respond with harshness >> or or and or they respond with harshness >> or or and or they respond with harshness like I they can't act this way. They like I they can't act this way. They like I they can't act this way. They have to know they can't act this way. have to know they can't act this way. have to know they can't act this way. >> You know I heard a line a phenomenal >> You know I heard a line a phenomenal >> You know I heard a line a phenomenal line from my friend Connor beaten from line from my friend Connor beaten from line from my friend Connor beaten from man talks the other day. He says we try man talks the other day. He says we try man talks the other day. He says we try to control that that which we feel we to control that that which we feel we to control that that which we feel we cannot trust. cannot trust. cannot trust. >> Yes. And you see it in relationships. If >> Yes. And you see it in relationships. If >> Yes. And you see it in relationships. If you're concerned about whether or not you're concerned about whether or not you're concerned about whether or not your is is my partner going to stray? your is is my partner going to stray? your is is my partner going to stray? Are they going to cheat on me on a night Are they going to cheat on me on a night Are they going to cheat on me on a night out? That is when you will see more out? That is when you will see more out? That is when you will see more controlling behavior or text me when you controlling behavior or text me when you controlling behavior or text me when you get there. Who are you with and how long get there. Who are you with and how long get there. Who are you with and how long we out for? You said that you were going we out for? You said that you were going we out for? You said that you were going to go did you go to I saw a photo of you to go did you go to I saw a photo of you to go did you go to I saw a photo of you in the background as opposed to I it's I in the background as opposed to I it's I in the background as opposed to I it's I feel like I can I don't need to do feel like I can I don't need to do feel like I can I don't need to do control because the trust is there. And control because the trust is there. And control because the trust is there. And it feels like it's sort of the same it feels like it's sort of the same it feels like it's sort of the same here. this this child that doesn't seem here. this this child that doesn't seem here. this this child that doesn't seem to be showing pro-social behavior and to be showing pro-social behavior and to be showing pro-social behavior and isn't remorseful. Uh I don't trust that isn't remorseful. Uh I don't trust that isn't remorseful. Uh I don't trust that if they first off, I don't trust that if they first off, I don't trust that if they first off, I don't trust that they're not going to do something bad. they're not going to do something bad. they're not going to do something bad. And if they do do something bad, I'm not And if they do do something bad, I'm not And if they do do something bad, I'm not convinced that they would own up to it convinced that they would own up to it convinced that they would own up to it or tell me or care enough to learn to or tell me or care enough to learn to or tell me or care enough to learn to not do it again. So I need to come in as not do it again. So I need to come in as not do it again. So I need to come in as this sort of external this sort of external this sort of external structure to constrain this behavior. structure to constrain this behavior. structure to constrain this behavior. Yeah, I think that's totally true. And I Yeah, I think that's totally true. And I Yeah, I think that's totally true. And I think with kids, the temptation is think with kids, the temptation is think with kids, the temptation is control and control through harshness. control and control through harshness. control and control through harshness. So, I'm going to take away all your So, I'm going to take away all your So, I'm going to take away all your toys. I'm not going to allow you to have toys. I'm not going to allow you to have toys. I'm not going to allow you to have playdates. I'm going to withdraw my playdates. I'm going to withdraw my playdates. I'm going to withdraw my affection. I'm going to um verbally affection. I'm going to um verbally affection. I'm going to um verbally berate you, shame you, blame you. I'm berate you, shame you, blame you. I'm berate you, shame you, blame you. I'm going to spank you or use some sort of going to spank you or use some sort of going to spank you or use some sort of other corporal punishment. There are other corporal punishment. There are other corporal punishment. There are these studies from the 90s where they these studies from the 90s where they these studies from the 90s where they take a child with conduct problems and take a child with conduct problems and take a child with conduct problems and they bring them into the lab and they they bring them into the lab and they they bring them into the lab and they have them interact with a woman who's have them interact with a woman who's have them interact with a woman who's not their mom. So this is just a not their mom. So this is just a not their mom. So this is just a volunteer, no interaction with the volunteer, no interaction with the volunteer, no interaction with the child. And they see over the course of child. And they see over the course of child. And they see over the course of the interaction that even this stranger the interaction that even this stranger the interaction that even this stranger begins to respond to the child with no begins to respond to the child with no begins to respond to the child with no warmth, with coercion, with harshness, warmth, with coercion, with harshness, warmth, with coercion, with harshness, with impatience. with impatience. with impatience. And I think that's a very again I think And I think that's a very again I think And I think that's a very again I think that you're picking up on the right that you're picking up on the right that you're picking up on the right thing which is there's a fear and an thing which is there's a fear and an thing which is there's a fear and an uncertainty and we respond to it uncertainty and we respond to it uncertainty and we respond to it >> lack of trust >> lack of trust >> lack of trust >> with with a lack of trust with a control >> with with a lack of trust with a control >> with with a lack of trust with a control and also the way that we try to control and also the way that we try to control and also the way that we try to control children in our culture is often through children in our culture is often through children in our culture is often through a lot of harshness. The problem is that a lot of harshness. The problem is that a lot of harshness. The problem is that is that those children are the most is that those children are the most is that those children are the most vulnerable to harsh punishment. So, the vulnerable to harsh punishment. So, the vulnerable to harsh punishment. So, the best p one of the best predictors of an best p one of the best predictors of an best p one of the best predictors of an antisocial child antisocial child antisocial child escalating in their antisocial behavior escalating in their antisocial behavior escalating in their antisocial behavior is how harshly have they been punished is how harshly have they been punished is how harshly have they been punished by the grown-ups in their lives. by the grown-ups in their lives. by the grown-ups in their lives. >> Why do you think that is? >> Why do you think that is? >> Why do you think that is? >> I think I think there's a couple >> I think I think there's a couple >> I think I think there's a couple reasons. One, I think that we're back to reasons. One, I think that we're back to reasons. One, I think that we're back to your friend. I'm not saying her your friend. I'm not saying her your friend. I'm not saying her antisocial, but this this, you know, antisocial, but this this, you know, antisocial, but this this, you know, attitude towards risk and potential attitude towards risk and potential attitude towards risk and potential negative consequences. Some people are negative consequences. Some people are negative consequences. Some people are much more sensitive to punishment than much more sensitive to punishment than much more sensitive to punishment than other people. They learn immediately other people. They learn immediately other people. They learn immediately from punishment or they're like, "I lost from punishment or they're like, "I lost from punishment or they're like, "I lost it all. Let's go again." And I'm I'm it all. Let's go again." And I'm I'm it all. Let's go again." And I'm I'm willing to do that same thing over and willing to do that same thing over and willing to do that same thing over and over again. You see this even with over again. You see this even with over again. You see this even with animals where some rats, if you train animals where some rats, if you train animals where some rats, if you train them to press a lever and they get them to press a lever and they get them to press a lever and they get alcohol for it, and then midway through alcohol for it, and then midway through alcohol for it, and then midway through the experiment, you switch it such that the experiment, you switch it such that the experiment, you switch it such that instead of getting alcohol, they now get instead of getting alcohol, they now get instead of getting alcohol, they now get shocked. shocked. shocked. Most rats, 75 to 80% will stop pressing Most rats, 75 to 80% will stop pressing Most rats, 75 to 80% will stop pressing the bar. They're like, "Okay, well, I the bar. They're like, "Okay, well, I the bar. They're like, "Okay, well, I used to be able to get drunk off of used to be able to get drunk off of used to be able to get drunk off of this." But now I'm getting shocked, so this." But now I'm getting shocked, so this." But now I'm getting shocked, so I'm not going to do this anymore. But I'm not going to do this anymore. But I'm not going to do this anymore. But there's a minority of rats that will there's a minority of rats that will there's a minority of rats that will actually increase their rate of actually increase their rate of actually increase their rate of behavior. They will start pressing the behavior. They will start pressing the behavior. They will start pressing the bar more. And I think some of that is bar more. And I think some of that is bar more. And I think some of that is like, I'm not learning from to like, I'm not learning from to like, I'm not learning from to anthropomorphize the rat. If I'm the rat anthropomorphize the rat. If I'm the rat anthropomorphize the rat. If I'm the rat in the situation, I'm not learning from in the situation, I'm not learning from in the situation, I'm not learning from punishment. I learned really well from punishment. I learned really well from punishment. I learned really well from reward. So maybe this time maybe this reward. So maybe this time maybe this reward. So maybe this time maybe this time it'll be the time that I get this time it'll be the time that I get this time it'll be the time that I get this reward that I'm expecting. And I think reward that I'm expecting. And I think reward that I'm expecting. And I think that there's the same sort of individual that there's the same sort of individual that there's the same sort of individual differences between people where some differences between people where some differences between people where some people are very reward sensitive and not people are very reward sensitive and not people are very reward sensitive and not at all punishment sensitive. If they at all punishment sensitive. If they at all punishment sensitive. If they don't learn from being punished, then don't learn from being punished, then don't learn from being punished, then punishing them isn't going to help them punishing them isn't going to help them punishing them isn't going to help them learn. Right? like that. It's and what learn. Right? like that. It's and what learn. Right? like that. It's and what we see with children with antisocial we see with children with antisocial we see with children with antisocial behavior is that they're one way to behavior is that they're one way to behavior is that they're one way to think about it is it's almost like a think about it is it's almost like a think about it is it's almost like a learning disability. This inability to learning disability. This inability to learning disability. This inability to learn from pain, learn from negative learn from pain, learn from negative learn from pain, learn from negative consequences. consequences. consequences. >> And so the parent is like, well, that >> And so the parent is like, well, that >> And so the parent is like, well, that didn't work. How do I ratchet this up didn't work. How do I ratchet this up didn't work. How do I ratchet this up further? further? further? >> Become more extreme. >> Become more extreme. >> Become more extreme. >> More extreme. You don't get your phone >> More extreme. You don't get your phone >> More extreme. You don't get your phone for two months. You don't get to see any for two months. You don't get to see any for two months. You don't get to see any of your friends. We're we're going to of your friends. We're we're going to of your friends. We're we're going to take everything that you like out of take everything that you like out of take everything that you like out of your room. You don't get to do sports. your room. You don't get to do sports. your room. You don't get to do sports. And now they're like, "Or I'm going to And now they're like, "Or I'm going to And now they're like, "Or I'm going to spank you. I'm going to, you know, I'm spank you. I'm going to, you know, I'm spank you. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to going to going to berate you for being such a bad kid." berate you for being such a bad kid." berate you for being such a bad kid." And now if none of that punishment And now if none of that punishment And now if none of that punishment they're actually learning from and all they're actually learning from and all they're actually learning from and all you're doing is taking away any you're doing is taking away any you're doing is taking away any opportunity for them to connect with you opportunity for them to connect with you opportunity for them to connect with you and care about the reward of being in and care about the reward of being in and care about the reward of being in relationship with you, then you're then relationship with you, then you're then relationship with you, then you're then you're actually destroying the one you're actually destroying the one you're actually destroying the one handle that you might have, which is handle that you might have, which is handle that you might have, which is people grow from connection. People grow people grow from connection. People grow people grow from connection. People grow from wanting to be attached to another from wanting to be attached to another from wanting to be attached to another person. Um, so I I think there's this person. Um, so I I think there's this person. Um, so I I think there's this really vicious feedback loop that that really vicious feedback loop that that really vicious feedback loop that that especially antisocial children can get especially antisocial children can get especially antisocial children can get in where they elicit from adults the in where they elicit from adults the in where they elicit from adults the exact opposite of the treatment that exact opposite of the treatment that exact opposite of the treatment that they would need in order to stop their they would need in order to stop their they would need in order to stop their behavior. behavior. behavior. >> That is so fascinating. We'll get back >> That is so fascinating. We'll get back >> That is so fascinating. We'll get back to talking in just one second, but to talking in just one second, but to talking in just one second, but first, if you have been feeling a bit first, if you have been feeling a bit first, if you have been feeling a bit sluggish, your testosterone levels might sluggish, your testosterone levels might sluggish, your testosterone levels might be the problem. They play a huge role in be the problem. They play a huge role in be the problem. They play a huge role in your energy, your focus, and your your energy, your focus, and your your energy, your focus, and your performance. But most people have no performance. But most people have no performance. But most people have no idea where theirs are or what to do if idea where theirs are or what to do if idea where theirs are or what to do if something's off. Which is why I something's off. Which is why I something's off. 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And right with function it's just $499. And right now you can get $100 off, bringing it now you can get $100 off, bringing it now you can get $100 off, bringing it down to $399 bucks. Get the exact same down to $399 bucks. Get the exact same down to $399 bucks. Get the exact same blood panels that I get and save that blood panels that I get and save that blood panels that I get and save that $100 by going to the link in the $100 by going to the link in the $100 by going to the link in the description below or heading to description below or heading to description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdism. What um what about when this evolves What um what about when this evolves into adulthood? into adulthood? into adulthood? >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's what's I think so troubling and what's I think so troubling and what's I think so troubling and difficult for our moral intuitions is difficult for our moral intuitions is difficult for our moral intuitions is that by the time someone's a man, if that by the time someone's a man, if that by the time someone's a man, if they're still impulsively hurting other they're still impulsively hurting other they're still impulsively hurting other people, then of course we feel outrage people, then of course we feel outrage people, then of course we feel outrage at that. How could you do that? How can at that. How could you do that? How can at that. How could you do that? How can we stop you? Other people need to be we stop you? Other people need to be we stop you? Other people need to be protected from you. protected from you. protected from you. But every single one of those people was But every single one of those people was But every single one of those people was once a child. And that once a child. And that once a child. And that evokes more of our empathic response of evokes more of our empathic response of evokes more of our empathic response of did they did they ever really have a did they did they ever really have a did they did they ever really have a chance to be a different sort of man if chance to be a different sort of man if chance to be a different sort of man if they if all of so much of this is rooted they if all of so much of this is rooted they if all of so much of this is rooted in the experiences and in the in the experiences and in the in the experiences and in the neurobiology of their childhood neurobiology of their childhood neurobiology of their childhood development. development. development. So where this really I think comes I So where this really I think comes I So where this really I think comes I think comes to a um a crucible where we think comes to a um a crucible where we think comes to a um a crucible where we don't really know what to do as a don't really know what to do as a don't really know what to do as a society is around adolescent school society is around adolescent school society is around adolescent school shooters. I mean you see how confused shooters. I mean you see how confused shooters. I mean you see how confused our response to this is right if our response to this is right if our response to this is right if someone's 15. You now have states some someone's 15. You now have states some someone's 15. You now have states some crimes where the shooter is being tried crimes where the shooter is being tried crimes where the shooter is being tried as an adult and their parents are being as an adult and their parents are being as an adult and their parents are being charged as responsible for providing charged as responsible for providing charged as responsible for providing with the gun. And when you see something with the gun. And when you see something with the gun. And when you see something like that, you're like, we have no idea like that, you're like, we have no idea like that, you're like, we have no idea what to do with teenagers as a culture. what to do with teenagers as a culture. what to do with teenagers as a culture. If we're saying both the parents are If we're saying both the parents are If we're saying both the parents are responsible for their behavior and a responsible for their behavior and a responsible for their behavior and a 15-year-old is responsible for 15-year-old is responsible for 15-year-old is responsible for themselves as if they were a grown-up, themselves as if they were a grown-up, themselves as if they were a grown-up, that's a sign of, I think, deep moral that's a sign of, I think, deep moral that's a sign of, I think, deep moral confusion on the part of our society confusion on the part of our society confusion on the part of our society about what we're going to do with them. about what we're going to do with them. about what we're going to do with them. What do we do with people who harm? And What do we do with people who harm? And What do we do with people who harm? And their harming is rooted in this long their harming is rooted in this long their harming is rooted in this long developmental process that started way developmental process that started way developmental process that started way before they were, before they were, before they were, you know, really able to make any real you know, really able to make any real you know, really able to make any real choices about who they were going to be choices about who they were going to be choices about who they were going to be or how their lives were going to go. or how their lives were going to go. or how their lives were going to go. >> There is definitely a question when do >> There is definitely a question when do >> There is definitely a question when do you become culpable for your own you become culpable for your own you become culpable for your own actions, right? We don't look at a actions, right? We don't look at a actions, right? We don't look at a 2-year-old. 2-year-old. 2-year-old. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And they've got a nature. Oh, he's a bit >> And they've got a nature. Oh, he's a bit >> And they've got a nature. Oh, he's a bit fussy, bit boisterous. And then you roll fussy, bit boisterous. And then you roll fussy, bit boisterous. And then you roll the clock forward and he's 5 years old the clock forward and he's 5 years old the clock forward and he's 5 years old and pulling the wings off flies in a and pulling the wings off flies in a and pulling the wings off flies in a garden outside. And then you roll the garden outside. And then you roll the garden outside. And then you roll the clock forward a little bit more and he's clock forward a little bit more and he's clock forward a little bit more and he's setting fire to stuff in school and setting fire to stuff in school and setting fire to stuff in school and bullying the kids and this is now his bullying the kids and this is now his bullying the kids and this is now his fourth different education establishment fourth different education establishment fourth different education establishment and he's been put under some special and he's been put under some special and he's been put under some special segregated thing and he's 14 and he's segregated thing and he's 14 and he's segregated thing and he's 14 and he's hanging around with gangs and he's what hanging around with gangs and he's what hanging around with gangs and he's what where when do we say you are now where when do we say you are now where when do we say you are now culpable for your actions? Well, I think culpable for your actions? Well, I think culpable for your actions? Well, I think that as humans, as individual humans, that as humans, as individual humans, that as humans, as individual humans, that differs by people and it's really that differs by people and it's really that differs by people and it's really kind of a I mean, it's sort of also like kind of a I mean, it's sort of also like kind of a I mean, it's sort of also like when is an animal conscious? You know, when is an animal conscious? You know, when is an animal conscious? You know, it's a it's a sliding scale. There's a it's a it's a sliding scale. There's a it's a it's a sliding scale. There's a lot of gray there. And then you have a lot of gray there. And then you have a lot of gray there. And then you have a criminal legal system that's trying to criminal legal system that's trying to criminal legal system that's trying to take this fuzziness between a 13 and an take this fuzziness between a 13 and an take this fuzziness between a 13 and an 18y old and say, "Okay, this is the age 18y old and say, "Okay, this is the age 18y old and say, "Okay, this is the age at, you know, at 16 or at 15, you can be at, you know, at 16 or at 15, you can be at, you know, at 16 or at 15, you can be tried as an adult." and but before that tried as an adult." and but before that tried as an adult." and but before that you're you're a child. This isn't just you're you're a child. This isn't just you're you're a child. This isn't just the United States. This isn't just the United States. This isn't just the United States. This isn't just high-income countries. They have the high-income countries. They have the high-income countries. They have the same debates in same debates in same debates in um in the aftermath of genocide um in the aftermath of genocide um in the aftermath of genocide um in Africa in several countries um in Africa in several countries um in Africa in several countries because of the use of child soldiers. because of the use of child soldiers. because of the use of child soldiers. And there's been this exact same problem And there's been this exact same problem And there's been this exact same problem which is if someone be someone was which is if someone be someone was which is if someone be someone was recruited by an army to be a soldier and recruited by an army to be a soldier and recruited by an army to be a soldier and hooked on drugs and given a machine gun hooked on drugs and given a machine gun hooked on drugs and given a machine gun at 13 and at 18 they're still a at 13 and at 18 they're still a at 13 and at 18 they're still a combatant and committing war crimes. To combatant and committing war crimes. To combatant and committing war crimes. To what extent are they culpable for that? what extent are they culpable for that? what extent are they culpable for that? Are they a victim because they were they Are they a victim because they were they Are they a victim because they were they were made to go to war or are they an were made to go to war or are they an were made to go to war or are they an agent that we're holding responsible agent that we're holding responsible agent that we're holding responsible because now they're a grown man and because now they're a grown man and because now they're a grown man and they're still doing these things. Um, in they're still doing these things. Um, in they're still doing these things. Um, in my book I talk about how my book I talk about how my book I talk about how some of the most successful programs for some of the most successful programs for some of the most successful programs for the re-entry of these child soldiers are the re-entry of these child soldiers are the re-entry of these child soldiers are communities where there's rituals that communities where there's rituals that communities where there's rituals that that both recognize that they were hurt that both recognize that they were hurt that both recognize that they were hurt and also ask them to and also ask them to and also ask them to um kind of admit responsibility and take um kind of admit responsibility and take um kind of admit responsibility and take responsibility for the actions that responsibility for the actions that responsibility for the actions that they've committed. Whereas we have very they've committed. Whereas we have very they've committed. Whereas we have very little like that within the American little like that within the American little like that within the American criminal legal system, even within a lot criminal legal system, even within a lot criminal legal system, even within a lot of our relationships, like I did a of our relationships, like I did a of our relationships, like I did a terrible thing. I'm not an innocent terrible thing. I'm not an innocent terrible thing. I'm not an innocent victim and these are all the reasons victim and these are all the reasons victim and these are all the reasons that it that I I was shaped to do that. that it that I I was shaped to do that. that it that I I was shaped to do that. Holding both of those in your head at Holding both of those in your head at Holding both of those in your head at the same time, I think is a challenging the same time, I think is a challenging the same time, I think is a challenging thing for us. thing for us. thing for us. >> What about addiction? >> What about addiction? >> What about addiction? >> Addiction, I mean, I think addiction is >> Addiction, I mean, I think addiction is >> Addiction, I mean, I think addiction is a very similar process. I think that a very similar process. I think that a very similar process. I think that some of the most sophisticated some of the most sophisticated some of the most sophisticated philosophers are people in recovery from philosophers are people in recovery from philosophers are people in recovery from addiction like lit like practical addiction like lit like practical addiction like lit like practical philosophers because think about what philosophers because think about what philosophers because think about what being in recovery for addiction being in recovery for addiction being in recovery for addiction asks you to do even just the steps in AA asks you to do even just the steps in AA asks you to do even just the steps in AA it's I'm powerless against alcohol it's I'm powerless against alcohol it's I'm powerless against alcohol I'm going to submit to a higher power I'm going to submit to a higher power I'm going to submit to a higher power I'm going to atone and ask for I'm going to atone and ask for I'm going to atone and ask for forgiveness from other people I'm going forgiveness from other people I'm going forgiveness from other people I'm going to vow to do differently today. So, it's to vow to do differently today. So, it's to vow to do differently today. So, it's this I I think that's a beautiful this I I think that's a beautiful this I I think that's a beautiful example of holding in mind those two example of holding in mind those two example of holding in mind those two things that I was just saying, which is things that I was just saying, which is things that I was just saying, which is there's lots of reasons, including my there's lots of reasons, including my there's lots of reasons, including my brain, including my biology, that I'm brain, including my biology, that I'm brain, including my biology, that I'm addicted to alcohol. addicted to alcohol. addicted to alcohol. I am powerless. I'm admitting my I am powerless. I'm admitting my I am powerless. I'm admitting my powerlessness against this and I'm powerlessness against this and I'm powerlessness against this and I'm taking responsibility. I'm seeking taking responsibility. I'm seeking taking responsibility. I'm seeking forgiveness and I'm vowing to behave forgiveness and I'm vowing to behave forgiveness and I'm vowing to behave differently today, one day at a time. differently today, one day at a time. differently today, one day at a time. And there's nothing about the academic And there's nothing about the academic And there's nothing about the academic philosophy of free will that gets you to philosophy of free will that gets you to philosophy of free will that gets you to that point. That is both radical that point. That is both radical that point. That is both radical compassion for a self that's been shaped compassion for a self that's been shaped compassion for a self that's been shaped by forces beyond your control and a by forces beyond your control and a by forces beyond your control and a determination to seek whatever agency determination to seek whatever agency determination to seek whatever agency and responsibility that you can in like and responsibility that you can in like and responsibility that you can in like in this current present moment. Um, so I in this current present moment. Um, so I in this current present moment. Um, so I think that addiction is an area in which think that addiction is an area in which think that addiction is an area in which we are starting to get to a both and we are starting to get to a both and we are starting to get to a both and perspective. perspective. perspective. Um, when it comes to violence, we have a Um, when it comes to violence, we have a Um, when it comes to violence, we have a lot harder time doing that because then lot harder time doing that because then lot harder time doing that because then there's victims that aren't, you know, there's victims that aren't, you know, there's victims that aren't, you know, you can say like, oh, the addict's just you can say like, oh, the addict's just you can say like, oh, the addict's just hurting themselves. That's not usually hurting themselves. That's not usually hurting themselves. That's not usually true. There's also other people hurt by true. There's also other people hurt by true. There's also other people hurt by that. But um that. But um that. But um moving the the moving the the moving the the keeping that tension in mind for other keeping that tension in mind for other keeping that tension in mind for other things like we do for addiction I think things like we do for addiction I think things like we do for addiction I think is is is um is a is a move that's difficult to do um is a is a move that's difficult to do um is a is a move that's difficult to do but I think a necessary one. but I think a necessary one. but I think a necessary one. >> Yeah. Because the the blast radius of >> Yeah. Because the the blast radius of >> Yeah. Because the the blast radius of damage begins to cover other people. damage begins to cover other people. damage begins to cover other people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And in that we have a desire for >> And in that we have a desire for >> And in that we have a desire for retribution, revenge to make an example retribution, revenge to make an example retribution, revenge to make an example of somebody etc. etc. I guess is there of somebody etc. etc. I guess is there of somebody etc. etc. I guess is there not a relationship between people's not a relationship between people's not a relationship between people's genetics and their ability to choose or genetics and their ability to choose or genetics and their ability to choose or enact agency? enact agency? enact agency? >> Yeah, that's such a good question. I >> Yeah, that's such a good question. I >> Yeah, that's such a good question. I I really do think that everyone I really do think that everyone I really do think that everyone has I think that everyone can change. has I think that everyone can change. has I think that everyone can change. I don't think that everyone's capacity I don't think that everyone's capacity I don't think that everyone's capacity to change necessarily comes through to change necessarily comes through to change necessarily comes through their own willpower. I think often their own willpower. I think often their own willpower. I think often people change because their community people change because their community people change because their community helps them change. Does our willpower helps them change. Does our willpower helps them change. Does our willpower come from our own willpower? come from our own willpower? come from our own willpower? >> Yeah. I mean, I I think the will I think >> Yeah. I mean, I I think the will I think >> Yeah. I mean, I I think the will I think everything about us is related to our everything about us is related to our everything about us is related to our genetics. Like there's no part of genetics. Like there's no part of genetics. Like there's no part of ourselves that's exempt from coming from ourselves that's exempt from coming from ourselves that's exempt from coming from the brain that we have. I think often the brain that we have. I think often the brain that we have. I think often people think of, well, my sins are the people think of, well, my sins are the people think of, well, my sins are the genetic part. That's the flesh, my genetic part. That's the flesh, my genetic part. That's the flesh, my addiction, my riskiness, my temptation, addiction, my riskiness, my temptation, addiction, my riskiness, my temptation, my tendency towards aggression. And then my tendency towards aggression. And then my tendency towards aggression. And then there's some, you know, willpower or there's some, you know, willpower or there's some, you know, willpower or like overcoming part that's like somehow like overcoming part that's like somehow like overcoming part that's like somehow not your body or sometime somehow not not your body or sometime somehow not not your body or sometime somehow not your genes. your genes. your genes. >> Um that everything is related to your >> Um that everything is related to your >> Um that everything is related to your genetics. Both both your smoking and genetics. Both both your smoking and genetics. Both both your smoking and your quitting smoking both your your quitting smoking both your your quitting smoking both your addiction and your recovery. Even your addiction and your recovery. Even your addiction and your recovery. Even your belief in free will is heritable belief in free will is heritable belief in free will is heritable >> uh is more similar and identical twins. >> uh is more similar and identical twins. >> uh is more similar and identical twins. persuasion, size of stomach, ghrelin persuasion, size of stomach, ghrelin persuasion, size of stomach, ghrelin release. release. release. >> I mean, it's this again, heritability, >> I mean, it's this again, heritability, >> I mean, it's this again, heritability, heritability studies or twin studies or heritability studies or twin studies or heritability studies or twin studies or genetic studies are never going to tell genetic studies are never going to tell genetic studies are never going to tell you like this part's your body because you like this part's your body because you like this part's your body because this other part is your soul or your this other part is your soul or your this other part is your soul or your spirit. It's all your body. It's turtles spirit. It's all your body. It's turtles spirit. It's all your body. It's turtles all the way down. It's genotype all the all the way down. It's genotype all the all the way down. It's genotype all the way down. You're never going to find way down. You're never going to find way down. You're never going to find some aspect of yourself that's sort of some aspect of yourself that's sort of some aspect of yourself that's sort of exempt from being embodied. exempt from being embodied. exempt from being embodied. Um I talk in my book about this uh study Um I talk in my book about this uh study Um I talk in my book about this uh study of twins reared apart where of twins reared apart where of twins reared apart where um two of them met in later life and um two of them met in later life and um two of them met in later life and realized that they were both very realized that they were both very realized that they were both very religious and both believed in both free religious and both believed in both free religious and both believed in both free will as a reflection of God's grace. And will as a reflection of God's grace. And will as a reflection of God's grace. And the author of the study was talking the author of the study was talking the author of the study was talking about the irony that they see themselves about the irony that they see themselves about the irony that they see themselves in terms of this, you know, spiritual in terms of this, you know, spiritual in terms of this, you know, spiritual freedom, but even that belief in their freedom, but even that belief in their freedom, but even that belief in their spiritual freedom is very similar to spiritual freedom is very similar to spiritual freedom is very similar to their long long separated identical. their long long separated identical. their long long separated identical. >> I can see where you're going. Yeah. >> I can see where you're going. Yeah. >> I can see where you're going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um then the study was done by this guy >> Um then the study was done by this guy >> Um then the study was done by this guy Lyndon Eves who was in addition to being Lyndon Eves who was in addition to being Lyndon Eves who was in addition to being a behavior geneticist also an Anglican a behavior geneticist also an Anglican a behavior geneticist also an Anglican priest. priest. priest. um who a fellow Englishman who felt came um who a fellow Englishman who felt came um who a fellow Englishman who felt came over to the United States. And what I over to the United States. And what I over to the United States. And what I love about Dr. Eve's writing, I guess love about Dr. Eve's writing, I guess love about Dr. Eve's writing, I guess Reverend Eve's writing is that he really Reverend Eve's writing is that he really Reverend Eve's writing is that he really resists resists resists either ors. He's like, I am a man of the either ors. He's like, I am a man of the either ors. He's like, I am a man of the cloth and also cloth and also cloth and also I have studies showing that your genes I have studies showing that your genes I have studies showing that your genes affect whether or not you believe God. affect whether or not you believe God. affect whether or not you believe God. >> Right? So like, how do we put those >> Right? So like, how do we put those >> Right? So like, how do we put those together? That's kind of a mystery of together? That's kind of a mystery of together? That's kind of a mystery of being human. being human. being human. >> It's messy. And this is one of the >> It's messy. And this is one of the >> It's messy. And this is one of the reasons why I think um reasons why I think um reasons why I think um the behavioral genetics argument in the the behavioral genetics argument in the the behavioral genetics argument in the same way as the evolutionary psychology same way as the evolutionary psychology same way as the evolutionary psychology argument, I'm sure you've seen Corey argument, I'm sure you've seen Corey argument, I'm sure you've seen Corey Clark's study that she did a couple of Clark's study that she did a couple of Clark's study that she did a couple of years ago of what are the most years ago of what are the most years ago of what are the most reprehensible things to talk about and reprehensible things to talk about and reprehensible things to talk about and the two that came up were your area of the two that came up were your area of the two that came up were your area of work in evolutionary psychology. Um it's work in evolutionary psychology. Um it's work in evolutionary psychology. Um it's much cleaner to say it is all much cleaner to say it is all much cleaner to say it is all environment. it is just blank slate all environment. it is just blank slate all environment. it is just blank slate all the way down because if we take we know the way down because if we take we know the way down because if we take we know that it can't be entirely and the that it can't be entirely and the that it can't be entirely and the behavioral geneticists are never apart behavioral geneticists are never apart behavioral geneticists are never apart from Huntington's are never saying it's from Huntington's are never saying it's from Huntington's are never saying it's exclusively on your genes and as soon as exclusively on your genes and as soon as exclusively on your genes and as soon as you open the crack the optics of the you open the crack the optics of the you open the crack the optics of the argument just fall apart because it's argument just fall apart because it's argument just fall apart because it's nowhere near as pathy as it's just nowhere near as pathy as it's just nowhere near as pathy as it's just environment bro environment bro environment bro >> um is there a difference in heritability >> um is there a difference in heritability >> um is there a difference in heritability of antisocial behavior of antisocial behavior of antisocial behavior That's sexed. Do men That's sexed. Do men That's sexed. Do men >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> inherit more >> inherit more >> inherit more uh accurately more is is is the uh accurately more is is is the uh accurately more is is is the heritability a greater effect on boys heritability a greater effect on boys heritability a greater effect on boys than it is on girls? than it is on girls? than it is on girls? >> Generally, no. But there's one exception >> Generally, no. But there's one exception >> Generally, no. But there's one exception that I want to come back to. So what we that I want to come back to. So what we that I want to come back to. So what we see is that the genes that are see is that the genes that are see is that the genes that are associated with antisocial behavior in associated with antisocial behavior in associated with antisocial behavior in boys also affect girls. If you have a boys also affect girls. If you have a boys also affect girls. If you have a fraternal twin, if you're female and you fraternal twin, if you're female and you fraternal twin, if you're female and you have a fraternal twin that's a male have a fraternal twin that's a male have a fraternal twin that's a male sibling, then his antisocial behavior sibling, then his antisocial behavior sibling, then his antisocial behavior predicts your likelihood of manifesting predicts your likelihood of manifesting predicts your likelihood of manifesting it. Um that the same liabilities are it. Um that the same liabilities are it. Um that the same liabilities are uh reflected in the same way. So the uh reflected in the same way. So the uh reflected in the same way. So the same genetic liabilities make you more same genetic liabilities make you more same genetic liabilities make you more likely to be physically aggressive. They likely to be physically aggressive. They likely to be physically aggressive. They make you more like to be relationally make you more like to be relationally make you more like to be relationally aggressive. They make you more likely to aggressive. They make you more likely to aggressive. They make you more likely to be substance using. They make you more be substance using. They make you more be substance using. They make you more likely to be risk-taking. It's just for likely to be risk-taking. It's just for likely to be risk-taking. It's just for everything the mean for men, the average everything the mean for men, the average everything the mean for men, the average for men is shifted up. for men is shifted up. for men is shifted up. >> So, >> So, >> So, >> oh, so the same impact would have a >> oh, so the same impact would have a >> oh, so the same impact would have a sorry, the the same raw materials would sorry, the the same raw materials would sorry, the the same raw materials would have a greater impact in real life. have a greater impact in real life. have a greater impact in real life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The same way as Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The same way as Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The same way as women commit suicide. Sorry, women women commit suicide. Sorry, women women commit suicide. Sorry, women attempt suicide more than men, but men attempt suicide more than men, but men attempt suicide more than men, but men commit suicide more than women. It's commit suicide more than women. It's commit suicide more than women. It's their ability to enact their ability to enact their ability to enact >> violence, antisocial stuff tends to be >> violence, antisocial stuff tends to be >> violence, antisocial stuff tends to be greater. So, it's magnified. Right. greater. So, it's magnified. Right. greater. So, it's magnified. Right. Interesting. And so, you know, part of Interesting. And so, you know, part of Interesting. And so, you know, part of that is around social opportunity. Like that is around social opportunity. Like that is around social opportunity. Like for many years, you know, women were for many years, you know, women were for many years, you know, women were very discouraged from drinking, very very discouraged from drinking, very very discouraged from drinking, very diff discouraged from smoking. So, you diff discouraged from smoking. So, you diff discouraged from smoking. So, you saw a big sex difference in smoking and saw a big sex difference in smoking and saw a big sex difference in smoking and drinking. Now, it's more socially drinking. Now, it's more socially drinking. Now, it's more socially acceptable for women to smoke and drink. acceptable for women to smoke and drink. acceptable for women to smoke and drink. And so, that average difference has And so, that average difference has And so, that average difference has narrowed and it's the same genes that narrowed and it's the same genes that narrowed and it's the same genes that seem to be involved in both. The seem to be involved in both. The seem to be involved in both. The exception there is that most of our exception there is that most of our exception there is that most of our current studies have focused on what are current studies have focused on what are current studies have focused on what are called the autotosomes. So we have 23 called the autotosomes. So we have 23 called the autotosomes. So we have 23 pairs of chromosomes. One pair is the pairs of chromosomes. One pair is the pairs of chromosomes. One pair is the sex chromosomes X Y or XX and typically sex chromosomes X Y or XX and typically sex chromosomes X Y or XX and typically developing children. And then the other developing children. And then the other developing children. And then the other 22 pair are the same across sexes. And 22 pair are the same across sexes. And 22 pair are the same across sexes. And nearly all of our contemporary studies nearly all of our contemporary studies nearly all of our contemporary studies have focused just on those 22 pairs of have focused just on those 22 pairs of have focused just on those 22 pairs of autotosomes for kind of boring technical autotosomes for kind of boring technical autotosomes for kind of boring technical reasons that I'm not going to get into. reasons that I'm not going to get into. reasons that I'm not going to get into. We're just now really diving in to the X We're just now really diving in to the X We're just now really diving in to the X chromosome to see is there something chromosome to see is there something chromosome to see is there something about the X chromosome that might have about the X chromosome that might have about the X chromosome that might have specific effects on antisocial behavior. specific effects on antisocial behavior. specific effects on antisocial behavior. And the reason why that's interesting is And the reason why that's interesting is And the reason why that's interesting is because men only have one X whereas because men only have one X whereas because men only have one X whereas women have two. And so men are much more women have two. And so men are much more women have two. And so men are much more vulnerable to the effects of a genetic vulnerable to the effects of a genetic vulnerable to the effects of a genetic variant that's XL linked because they variant that's XL linked because they variant that's XL linked because they don't have another copy to compensate. don't have another copy to compensate. don't have another copy to compensate. >> Oh, that's so cool. >> Oh, that's so cool. >> Oh, that's so cool. >> So that's why colorb blindness for >> So that's why colorb blindness for >> So that's why colorb blindness for instance is much more prevalent in men instance is much more prevalent in men instance is much more prevalent in men versus women because it's a sex link. versus women because it's a sex link. versus women because it's a sex link. It's an X chromosome linked um genetic. It's an X chromosome linked um genetic. It's an X chromosome linked um genetic. >> That is so sick. So the reason why we >> That is so sick. So the reason why we >> That is so sick. So the reason why we think the X chromosome might be think the X chromosome might be think the X chromosome might be important important important um is um is um is and again just to back up a second most and again just to back up a second most and again just to back up a second most of what we study in our lab is what we of what we study in our lab is what we of what we study in our lab is what we would call common genetic variation. So would call common genetic variation. So would call common genetic variation. So these are genetic differences between these are genetic differences between these are genetic differences between people that exist in at least 5% people that exist in at least 5% people that exist in at least 5% sometimes people say at least 1% of the sometimes people say at least 1% of the sometimes people say at least 1% of the population. population. population. The thing about common genetic variants The thing about common genetic variants The thing about common genetic variants is that um they're common which means is that um they're common which means is that um they're common which means that they are likely to have a that they are likely to have a that they are likely to have a relatively small effect in isolation relatively small effect in isolation relatively small effect in isolation because if they had a big effect because if they had a big effect because if they had a big effect evolution would make them not common evolution would make them not common evolution would make them not common would weed them out very very quickly. would weed them out very very quickly. would weed them out very very quickly. So you have this trade-off between how So you have this trade-off between how So you have this trade-off between how common is a genetic variant and how big common is a genetic variant and how big common is a genetic variant and how big of an effect how powerful it is. Um, so of an effect how powerful it is. Um, so of an effect how powerful it is. Um, so what we're looking at is lots of common what we're looking at is lots of common what we're looking at is lots of common genetic variants, each of which have a genetic variants, each of which have a genetic variants, each of which have a tiny effect, but if you add them all up, tiny effect, but if you add them all up, tiny effect, but if you add them all up, then you get an appreciable effect of then you get an appreciable effect of then you get an appreciable effect of one one that's meaningful. But there are one one that's meaningful. But there are one one that's meaningful. But there are studies of rare genetic variants. And studies of rare genetic variants. And studies of rare genetic variants. And there's one very famous study that was there's one very famous study that was there's one very famous study that was done in the 1990s where they looked at a done in the 1990s where they looked at a done in the 1990s where they looked at a rare variant on um a gene on the X rare variant on um a gene on the X rare variant on um a gene on the X chromosome and that gene was called chromosome and that gene was called chromosome and that gene was called MAOA. So um your monoamines are how your MAOA. So um your monoamines are how your MAOA. So um your monoamines are how your neurons are talking to each other. It's neurons are talking to each other. It's neurons are talking to each other. It's like serotonin is a monoamine, dopamine like serotonin is a monoamine, dopamine like serotonin is a monoamine, dopamine is a monoamine. So mono monoamine is a monoamine. So mono monoamine is a monoamine. So mono monoamine oxidase is an enzyme that basically is oxidase is an enzyme that basically is oxidase is an enzyme that basically is like a Pac-Man eating the like a Pac-Man eating the like a Pac-Man eating the neurotransmitter in your brain. And if neurotransmitter in your brain. And if neurotransmitter in your brain. And if it doesn't work well, then you get this it doesn't work well, then you get this it doesn't work well, then you get this incredible buildup of the signals that incredible buildup of the signals that incredible buildup of the signals that your brain ordinarily uses to your brain ordinarily uses to your brain ordinarily uses to communicate with each other. Okay, so communicate with each other. Okay, so communicate with each other. Okay, so why is that important? In this one why is that important? In this one why is that important? In this one family where they found this genetic family where they found this genetic family where they found this genetic variant on the X chromosome, variant on the X chromosome, variant on the X chromosome, it made the MAOA it made the MAOA it made the MAOA enzyme not work and all the men in that enzyme not work and all the men in that enzyme not work and all the men in that family suffered from extremely serious family suffered from extremely serious family suffered from extremely serious antisocial behavior problems. Whereas antisocial behavior problems. Whereas antisocial behavior problems. Whereas their sisters were completely wow their sisters were completely wow their sisters were completely wow >> typically functioning. So the men, one >> typically functioning. So the men, one >> typically functioning. So the men, one raped his sister, one committed arson, raped his sister, one committed arson, raped his sister, one committed arson, one stabbed his boss with a pitchfork. one stabbed his boss with a pitchfork. one stabbed his boss with a pitchfork. Huge levels of antisocial violence in Huge levels of antisocial violence in Huge levels of antisocial violence in this family. And the their sisters and this family. And the their sisters and this family. And the their sisters and their moms were like, "What the [ __ ] is their moms were like, "What the [ __ ] is their moms were like, "What the [ __ ] is going on here?" Like, why why do my sons going on here?" Like, why why do my sons going on here?" Like, why why do my sons and my brothers keep doing this and we and my brothers keep doing this and we and my brothers keep doing this and we don't have this problem? And it's don't have this problem? And it's don't have this problem? And it's because they have two exes. And so if because they have two exes. And so if because they have two exes. And so if they inherited the mutation, it didn't they inherited the mutation, it didn't they inherited the mutation, it didn't matter because there was another matter because there was another matter because there was another functioning version of functioning version of functioning version of >> to regress them back toward the mean >> to regress them back toward the mean >> to regress them back toward the mean >> to to to kind of dosage like they could >> to to to kind of dosage like they could >> to to to kind of dosage like they could compensate for it. Whereas if if you're compensate for it. Whereas if if you're compensate for it. Whereas if if you're a man and you have 1x and you got this, a man and you have 1x and you got this, a man and you have 1x and you got this, you know, 50-50 shot, which of your you know, 50-50 shot, which of your you know, 50-50 shot, which of your mom's exes are you getting? It's a 50-50 mom's exes are you getting? It's a 50-50 mom's exes are you getting? It's a 50-50 shot whether or not you were going to be shot whether or not you were going to be shot whether or not you were going to be antisocial. antisocial. antisocial. >> So that's a rare variant. >> So that's a rare variant. >> So that's a rare variant. You know, the vast majority of people You know, the vast majority of people You know, the vast majority of people who are deeply antisocial do not have who are deeply antisocial do not have who are deeply antisocial do not have this MAOA problem. this MAOA problem. this MAOA problem. >> Can't use the MAOA excuse. >> Can't use the MAOA excuse. >> Can't use the MAOA excuse. >> They can't use the MAOA excuse. But I I >> They can't use the MAOA excuse. But I I >> They can't use the MAOA excuse. But I I think it's important for two reasons. think it's important for two reasons. think it's important for two reasons. And one is that we think of our moral And one is that we think of our moral And one is that we think of our moral faculties as our ability to not go faculties as our ability to not go faculties as our ability to not go around stabbing our boss every time around stabbing our boss every time around stabbing our boss every time we're mad at him in moral terms, in we're mad at him in moral terms, in we're mad at him in moral terms, in spiritual terms or in cognitive terms. spiritual terms or in cognitive terms. spiritual terms or in cognitive terms. And it turns out that it's very And it turns out that it's very And it turns out that it's very vulnerable to disruption. You can change vulnerable to disruption. You can change vulnerable to disruption. You can change one letter of your genome that changes one letter of your genome that changes one letter of your genome that changes one gene which changes one enzyme and one gene which changes one enzyme and one gene which changes one enzyme and that capacity is really that capacity is really that capacity is really if not destroyed very very impaired. And if not destroyed very very impaired. And if not destroyed very very impaired. And so the extent to which our morality is a so the extent to which our morality is a so the extent to which our morality is a biological faculty I think is very much biological faculty I think is very much biological faculty I think is very much supported by the fact that we can so supported by the fact that we can so supported by the fact that we can so profoundly disrupt it by this one change profoundly disrupt it by this one change profoundly disrupt it by this one change in our genome. And the other thing that in our genome. And the other thing that in our genome. And the other thing that I find so interesting about this case I find so interesting about this case I find so interesting about this case study is that um these men were in the study is that um these men were in the study is that um these men were in the criminal legal system in the Netherlands criminal legal system in the Netherlands criminal legal system in the Netherlands and no one was like, "Oh, this must be a and no one was like, "Oh, this must be a and no one was like, "Oh, this must be a genetic problem." They weren't not genetic problem." They weren't not genetic problem." They weren't not guilty by reason of insanity. They guilty by reason of insanity. They guilty by reason of insanity. They weren't, you know, lacking capacity to weren't, you know, lacking capacity to weren't, you know, lacking capacity to stay on trial. They were stay on trial. They were stay on trial. They were indistinguishable indistinguishable indistinguishable from the rest of the offending from the rest of the offending from the rest of the offending population based just on their behavior. population based just on their behavior. population based just on their behavior. And the only reason we know that their And the only reason we know that their And the only reason we know that their behavior was due to this genetic cause behavior was due to this genetic cause behavior was due to this genetic cause is because of the familial data that is because of the familial data that is because of the familial data that made the pattern of transmission so made the pattern of transmission so made the pattern of transmission so clear. clear. clear. And I think that really brings up the And I think that really brings up the And I think that really brings up the question, how many other people who are question, how many other people who are question, how many other people who are persistently violent in families that persistently violent in families that persistently violent in families that are persistently violent? There might be are persistently violent? There might be are persistently violent? There might be some some some um genetic or neurobiological um genetic or neurobiological um genetic or neurobiological explanation that we just haven't explanation that we just haven't explanation that we just haven't discovered yet. Like we just don't know discovered yet. Like we just don't know discovered yet. Like we just don't know that. In the 80s, they would have that. In the 80s, they would have that. In the 80s, they would have considered it ridiculous. Like this considered it ridiculous. Like this considered it ridiculous. Like this persistently violent family, it's you're persistently violent family, it's you're persistently violent family, it's you're telling me it's because they have a telling me it's because they have a telling me it's because they have a >> one gene that's wrong. like would have >> one gene that's wrong. like would have >> one gene that's wrong. like would have seen sounded like science fiction, seen sounded like science fiction, seen sounded like science fiction, >> but that was the case for this family. >> but that was the case for this family. >> but that was the case for this family. Um, so I, you know, we haven't in modern Um, so I, you know, we haven't in modern Um, so I, you know, we haven't in modern genomics turned our attention very often genomics turned our attention very often genomics turned our attention very often back to the X chromosome, but my lab's back to the X chromosome, but my lab's back to the X chromosome, but my lab's doing this now and I'm I'm really doing this now and I'm I'm really doing this now and I'm I'm really excited about this project. excited about this project. excited about this project. >> In other news, you've probably heard me >> In other news, you've probably heard me >> In other news, you've probably heard me talk about element before, and that's talk about element before, and that's talk about element before, and that's because I am frankly [laughter] because I am frankly [laughter] because I am frankly [laughter] dependent on it. Uh, and it's how I've dependent on it. Uh, and it's how I've dependent on it. 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I I want to pull heart of the question. I I want to pull heart of the question. I I want to pull apart two ideas which apart two ideas which apart two ideas which are were very confounded in my mind too are were very confounded in my mind too are were very confounded in my mind too which is accountability which is accountability which is accountability and punishment. and punishment. and punishment. So in my mind, punishment is So in my mind, punishment is So in my mind, punishment is um um um deliberately making someone suffer as deliberately making someone suffer as deliberately making someone suffer as retribution for the harm that they've retribution for the harm that they've retribution for the harm that they've caused. Whereas accountability is saying caused. Whereas accountability is saying caused. Whereas accountability is saying you've done this, you've harmed someone. you've done this, you've harmed someone. you've done this, you've harmed someone. We as a community are enforcing our We as a community are enforcing our We as a community are enforcing our rules that you don't get to do that and rules that you don't get to do that and rules that you don't get to do that and we're doing what we need to do to keep we're doing what we need to do to keep we're doing what we need to do to keep you from doing it again and and keep you from doing it again and and keep you from doing it again and and keep other people safe. other people safe. other people safe. Um, Um, Um, the United States, we hold people the United States, we hold people the United States, we hold people accountable, but we do it through a very accountable, but we do it through a very accountable, but we do it through a very retributive punishment system. We retributive punishment system. We retributive punishment system. We incarcerate more people in worse incarcerate more people in worse incarcerate more people in worse conditions than any other country has conditions than any other country has conditions than any other country has ever done in the history of the world. I ever done in the history of the world. I ever done in the history of the world. I think it's more people um were think it's more people um were think it's more people um were incarcerated at the height of mass incarcerated at the height of mass incarcerated at the height of mass incarceration than were ever put in the incarceration than were ever put in the incarceration than were ever put in the goolog by the Soviets. It's like it's a goolog by the Soviets. It's like it's a goolog by the Soviets. It's like it's a we have a truly [snorts] massive we have a truly [snorts] massive we have a truly [snorts] massive >> um incarceration >> um incarceration >> um incarceration incarcereral state here. incarcereral state here. incarcereral state here. So I I want to reframe your question and So I I want to reframe your question and So I I want to reframe your question and I I think your question is so and it's I I think your question is so and it's I I think your question is so and it's your question is the question that I your question is the question that I your question is the question that I started my book at. I started my book started my book at. I started my book started my book at. I started my book thinking thinking thinking well can we justify punishing people if well can we justify punishing people if well can we justify punishing people if and how do we who deserves to be and how do we who deserves to be and how do we who deserves to be punished based on what we know about punished based on what we know about punished based on what we know about science and I I have come to the science and I I have come to the science and I I have come to the conclusion that conclusion that conclusion that I don't think anyone deserves to suffer I don't think anyone deserves to suffer I don't think anyone deserves to suffer and that doesn't mean that we have no and that doesn't mean that we have no and that doesn't mean that we have no rules and we don't hold people rules and we don't hold people rules and we don't hold people accountable and pulling those two things accountable and pulling those two things accountable and pulling those two things apart is apart is apart is >> the very unsexy argument. >> the very unsexy argument. >> the very unsexy argument. >> It's very unsexy. >> It's very unsexy. >> It's very unsexy. >> It's incredibly unsexy. >> It's incredibly unsexy. >> It's incredibly unsexy. >> Well, you know, because Americans like >> Well, you know, because Americans like >> Well, you know, because Americans like the either or the either or the either or >> simplicity, >> simplicity, >> simplicity, >> simplicity like um there's a philosopher >> simplicity like um there's a philosopher >> simplicity like um there's a philosopher Hana Pequard who who writes about what Hana Pequard who who writes about what Hana Pequard who who writes about what she calls the rescue blame trap. And the she calls the rescue blame trap. And the she calls the rescue blame trap. And the rescue blame trap is rescue blame trap is rescue blame trap is this vacasillation that we do where we this vacasillation that we do where we this vacasillation that we do where we say, "This person say, "This person say, "This person stabbed his boss with a pitchfork. This stabbed his boss with a pitchfork. This stabbed his boss with a pitchfork. This person committed a horrible sexual person committed a horrible sexual person committed a horrible sexual crime. They did it. They deserve to be crime. They did it. They deserve to be crime. They did it. They deserve to be punished for it because they did it. punished for it because they did it. punished for it because they did it. They did this horrible thing. They did this horrible thing. They did this horrible thing. And then you think, "Oh, but they were And then you think, "Oh, but they were And then you think, "Oh, but they were maltreated. Oh, but their genes. Oh, but maltreated. Oh, but their genes. Oh, but maltreated. Oh, but their genes. Oh, but their neurobiology. Oh, but their their neurobiology. Oh, but their their neurobiology. Oh, but their extenduating circumstances. extenduating circumstances. extenduating circumstances. Maybe all of that rescues them from Maybe all of that rescues them from Maybe all of that rescues them from blame." M blame." M blame." M >> and that lasts for about 35 seconds >> and that lasts for about 35 seconds >> and that lasts for about 35 seconds until you think about what a horrible until you think about what a horrible until you think about what a horrible thing they did thing they did thing they did >> and then you go back to the rescue and >> and then you go back to the rescue and >> and then you go back to the rescue and it's this very unsatisfying cycle that it's this very unsatisfying cycle that it's this very unsatisfying cycle that we do see seesawing between we do see seesawing between we do see seesawing between that this this person is awful and but I that this this person is awful and but I that this this person is awful and but I can also I'm a scientist I can think can also I'm a scientist I can think can also I'm a scientist I can think about all the extenduating circumstances about all the extenduating circumstances about all the extenduating circumstances and It's and It's and It's unsexy and nuanced and and difficult and unsexy and nuanced and and difficult and unsexy and nuanced and and difficult and I think takes a lot of imagination I think takes a lot of imagination I think takes a lot of imagination practical and moral. But what if you're practical and moral. But what if you're practical and moral. But what if you're trying to keep both of those things at trying to keep both of those things at trying to keep both of those things at the same in your head at the same time the same in your head at the same time the same in your head at the same time rather than seesawing back? rather than seesawing back? rather than seesawing back? >> Does that mean that somebody who commits >> Does that mean that somebody who commits >> Does that mean that somebody who commits a murder but has a particular genetic a murder but has a particular genetic a murder but has a particular genetic profile should get extenduating profile should get extenduating profile should get extenduating circumstance they should be treated in a circumstance they should be treated in a circumstance they should be treated in a different way by the court? I I mean I different way by the court? I I mean I different way by the court? I I mean I think that they I mean I think what we think that they I mean I think what we think that they I mean I think what we do now which is like let's lock you up do now which is like let's lock you up do now which is like let's lock you up with no therapy and no education and no with no therapy and no education and no with no therapy and no education and no possibility of ever being rehabilitated possibility of ever being rehabilitated possibility of ever being rehabilitated and never getting out again. and never getting out again. and never getting out again. Um that's not good for that person which Um that's not good for that person which Um that's not good for that person which you might not care about. But we also you might not care about. But we also you might not care about. But we also know that it doesn't work to defer know that it doesn't work to defer know that it doesn't work to defer violent crime. Like it's just like not violent crime. Like it's just like not violent crime. Like it's just like not very effective. very effective. very effective. >> I I agree. I I've had a couple of >> I I agree. I I've had a couple of >> I I agree. I I've had a couple of conversations about the ineffectiveness conversations about the ineffectiveness conversations about the ineffectiveness of uh like retributive justice, just of uh like retributive justice, just of uh like retributive justice, just punishing for the sake of it. Let's use punishing for the sake of it. Let's use punishing for the sake of it. Let's use something else that isn't quite as uh something else that isn't quite as uh something else that isn't quite as uh contentious as whether or not the penal contentious as whether or not the penal contentious as whether or not the penal system works well. Let's say that system works well. Let's say that system works well. Let's say that somebody has the genes to make them uh somebody has the genes to make them uh somebody has the genes to make them uh high desire for sexual novelty. high desire for sexual novelty. high desire for sexual novelty. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They cheat in a relationship and they >> They cheat in a relationship and they >> They cheat in a relationship and they have every genetic variant under the sun have every genetic variant under the sun have every genetic variant under the sun >> that predisposes them to it. And their >> that predisposes them to it. And their >> that predisposes them to it. And their dad cheated on their mom. they had all dad cheated on their mom. they had all dad cheated on their mom. they had all of the environmental factors that of the environmental factors that of the environmental factors that reinforced it. Should that person's reinforced it. Should that person's reinforced it. Should that person's partner take them back more easily partner take them back more easily partner take them back more easily knowing that they had if we were able to knowing that they had if we were able to knowing that they had if we were able to say, well, my 23 and me or my Intel XDNA say, well, my 23 and me or my Intel XDNA say, well, my 23 and me or my Intel XDNA came back and actually said that my came back and actually said that my came back and actually said that my dopamine B I've got the comb te variant dopamine B I've got the comb te variant dopamine B I've got the comb te variant like the double A for this, which means like the double A for this, which means like the double A for this, which means that my dopamine baseline's higher and I that my dopamine baseline's higher and I that my dopamine baseline's higher and I process cortisol in a different way and process cortisol in a different way and process cortisol in a different way and I actually d I actually d I actually d >> I don't think so. No, not necessarily. >> I don't think so. No, not necessarily. >> I don't think so. No, not necessarily. you know, the extenduating circumstances you know, the extenduating circumstances you know, the extenduating circumstances outside of the legal system trying to outside of the legal system trying to outside of the legal system trying to get to. get to. get to. >> So, I think the cheating partner example >> So, I think the cheating partner example >> So, I think the cheating partner example is a great example because I one I think is a great example because I one I think is a great example because I one I think it's it gets to why we find the kind of it's it gets to why we find the kind of it's it gets to why we find the kind of Roberts of Pski determinist framework to Roberts of Pski determinist framework to Roberts of Pski determinist framework to be unsatisfying which is that we matter be unsatisfying which is that we matter be unsatisfying which is that we matter to each other. We matter to each other to each other. We matter to each other to each other. We matter to each other in this way that we call ethical or that in this way that we call ethical or that in this way that we call ethical or that we call moral. And we have a a long we call moral. And we have a a long we call moral. And we have a a long evolved neurobiological architecture evolved neurobiological architecture evolved neurobiological architecture that is like I experience myself as a that is like I experience myself as a that is like I experience myself as a mind that makes choices and I experience mind that makes choices and I experience mind that makes choices and I experience you as a mind who makes choices and when you as a mind who makes choices and when you as a mind who makes choices and when you make choices that hurt me, you could you make choices that hurt me, you could you make choices that hurt me, you could give me all the philosoph philosophical give me all the philosoph philosophical give me all the philosoph philosophical arguments all day long arguments all day long arguments all day long >> about why you were determined to cheat. >> about why you were determined to cheat. >> about why you were determined to cheat. I don't care. Um there's this I don't care. Um there's this I don't care. Um there's this philosopher Peter Strawson who was philosopher Peter Strawson who was philosopher Peter Strawson who was writing in the mid to late um 20th writing in the mid to late um 20th writing in the mid to late um 20th century and he called these the reactive century and he called these the reactive century and he called these the reactive attitudes which is the resentment, the attitudes which is the resentment, the attitudes which is the resentment, the blame, the praise, the admiration that blame, the praise, the admiration that blame, the praise, the admiration that we have to each other. And he basically we have to each other. And he basically we have to each other. And he basically said, even if the thesis of determinism said, even if the thesis of determinism said, even if the thesis of determinism is true, is true, is true, there's no escaping the fact that we there's no escaping the fact that we there's no escaping the fact that we matter to each other in ways that matter to each other in ways that matter to each other in ways that generate these reactive attitudes. generate these reactive attitudes. generate these reactive attitudes. >> Do you not end up with a kind of genetic >> Do you not end up with a kind of genetic >> Do you not end up with a kind of genetic determinism that gets slipped in under a determinism that gets slipped in under a determinism that gets slipped in under a different guise with the predisposition different guise with the predisposition different guise with the predisposition of people towards certain types of of people towards certain types of of people towards certain types of behaviors, which is level of culpability behaviors, which is level of culpability behaviors, which is level of culpability changes that there's an amount that you changes that there's an amount that you changes that there's an amount that you are culpable. There's amount of you that are culpable. There's amount of you that are culpable. There's amount of you that did this thing and then there's a bit of did this thing and then there's a bit of did this thing and then there's a bit of you that kind of didn't do this thing. you that kind of didn't do this thing. you that kind of didn't do this thing. >> Yes. And I again I as a behavior >> Yes. And I again I as a behavior >> Yes. And I again I as a behavior geneticist I do not think of it that way geneticist I do not think of it that way geneticist I do not think of it that way at all. Like it's sort of the way that at all. Like it's sort of the way that at all. Like it's sort of the way that people used to talk about the god of the people used to talk about the god of the people used to talk about the god of the gaps. God was what we couldn't explain. gaps. God was what we couldn't explain. gaps. God was what we couldn't explain. I think people are tempted towards like I think people are tempted towards like I think people are tempted towards like a free will of the gaps right like a free will of the gaps right like a free will of the gaps right like however much you however much you however much you >> uh your behavior was heritable or >> uh your behavior was heritable or >> uh your behavior was heritable or genetically determined that's the part genetically determined that's the part genetically determined that's the part that you're not responsible for. And that you're not responsible for. And that you're not responsible for. And then whatever is left over in the then whatever is left over in the then whatever is left over in the remainder is the part that you're remainder is the part that you're remainder is the part that you're responsible for. responsible for. responsible for. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I think the condition of being human on >> I think the condition of being human on >> I think the condition of being human on this planet is that none of us chose to this planet is that none of us chose to this planet is that none of us chose to be who we are be who we are be who we are and we are responsible for all of and we are responsible for all of and we are responsible for all of ourselves anyways. ourselves anyways. ourselves anyways. And also that means that we should be And also that means that we should be And also that means that we should be kinder to each other and and more kinder to each other and and more kinder to each other and and more reluctant to make the each other suffer reluctant to make the each other suffer reluctant to make the each other suffer for the sake of suffering. Yes. thinking for the sake of suffering. Yes. thinking for the sake of suffering. Yes. thinking about the genetic lottery and the fact about the genetic lottery and the fact about the genetic lottery and the fact that people start from different genetic that people start from different genetic that people start from different genetic baselines. baselines. baselines. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Certain people, >> Certain people, >> Certain people, if your impulse control is better, if your impulse control is better, if your impulse control is better, you're probably going to do better in you're probably going to do better in you're probably going to do better in school. You're probably going to do school. You're probably going to do school. You're probably going to do better in higher I have to assume that better in higher I have to assume that better in higher I have to assume that you'll do better in higher education. It you'll do better in higher education. It you'll do better in higher education. It means more qualifications. means more qualifications. means more qualifications. >> You're less likely to be suspended for >> You're less likely to be suspended for >> You're less likely to be suspended for like bringing a gun to school. Yes. See like bringing a gun to school. Yes. See like bringing a gun to school. Yes. See that in the data? that in the data? that in the data? >> All of these things. And is it fair to >> All of these things. And is it fair to >> All of these things. And is it fair to say that one of the um perspectives that say that one of the um perspectives that say that one of the um perspectives that you have about the world is that trying you have about the world is that trying you have about the world is that trying to rele some of the genetic inequality to rele some of the genetic inequality to rele some of the genetic inequality so that everybody gets a more equal so that everybody gets a more equal so that everybody gets a more equal access to be able to be successful in access to be able to be successful in access to be able to be successful in life is one of the things that that we life is one of the things that that we life is one of the things that that we should go for. should go for. should go for. >> I think it can be. So >> I think it can be. So >> I think it can be. So >> So just on if if that's the case >> So just on if if that's the case >> So just on if if that's the case >> Yeah. When it comes to having somebody >> Yeah. When it comes to having somebody >> Yeah. When it comes to having somebody who stands in the who stands in the who stands in the accuser box or the the accused the accuser box or the the accused the accuser box or the the accused the persecutor box in court, should the same persecutor box in court, should the same persecutor box in court, should the same thing not happen but just in reverse? If thing not happen but just in reverse? If thing not happen but just in reverse? If we want to give a leg up to people who we want to give a leg up to people who we want to give a leg up to people who have a genetic profile which makes them have a genetic profile which makes them have a genetic profile which makes them less amanable to the current reward less amanable to the current reward less amanable to the current reward system that this society has offered system that this society has offered system that this society has offered people, people, people, >> does that not mean the same thing just >> does that not mean the same thing just >> does that not mean the same thing just holds true when they've misbehaved as holds true when they've misbehaved as holds true when they've misbehaved as opposed to when they can't behave well? opposed to when they can't behave well? opposed to when they can't behave well? Yeah. So, to some Okay, God, I have so Yeah. So, to some Okay, God, I have so Yeah. So, to some Okay, God, I have so many different responses to this. Like, many different responses to this. Like, many different responses to this. Like, my mind is going in five different my mind is going in five different my mind is going in five different places at once. Um, so to some extent, places at once. Um, so to some extent, places at once. Um, so to some extent, we already do this and it's in the we already do this and it's in the we already do this and it's in the criminal sentencing phase of trials, criminal sentencing phase of trials, criminal sentencing phase of trials, which is the quote unquote mitigation which is the quote unquote mitigation which is the quote unquote mitigation phase. And this is where someone says phase. And this is where someone says phase. And this is where someone says >> insanity plea, >> insanity plea, >> insanity plea, >> no, not insanity. So, insanity is are >> no, not insanity. So, insanity is are >> no, not insanity. So, insanity is are you going to be exempted from the normal you going to be exempted from the normal you going to be exempted from the normal um the normal criminal penalties um the normal criminal penalties um the normal criminal penalties entirely? So if you are you know entirely? So if you are you know entirely? So if you are you know actively psychotic at the time of the actively psychotic at the time of the actively psychotic at the time of the tri at the time of the crime and you tri at the time of the crime and you tri at the time of the crime and you could you could not know that what you could you could not know that what you could you could not know that what you were doing is wrong and you could not were doing is wrong and you could not were doing is wrong and you could not have stopped yourself then that's not have stopped yourself then that's not have stopped yourself then that's not guilty by reason of insanity which is guilty by reason of insanity which is guilty by reason of insanity which is rarely attempted even less commonly rarely attempted even less commonly rarely attempted even less commonly successful I think it's like 1% of successful I think it's like 1% of successful I think it's like 1% of defendants get off by not reason by defendants get off by not reason by defendants get off by not reason by guilty of insanity Yates um drowned her guilty of insanity Yates um drowned her guilty of insanity Yates um drowned her five children in Texas um in the early five children in Texas um in the early five children in Texas um in the early 2000s. That's an example I talk about in 2000s. That's an example I talk about in 2000s. That's an example I talk about in my book of a not guilty by reason of my book of a not guilty by reason of my book of a not guilty by reason of insanity. insanity. insanity. What most people have is a is a um are What most people have is a is a um are What most people have is a is a um are you guilty or not? Did you do it or not? you guilty or not? Did you do it or not? you guilty or not? Did you do it or not? And that's not focused on do you deserve And that's not focused on do you deserve And that's not focused on do you deserve to be punished. That's focused on to be punished. That's focused on to be punished. That's focused on >> are the facts of the did you do the >> are the facts of the did you do the >> are the facts of the did you do the thing. And then there's a separate phase thing. And then there's a separate phase thing. And then there's a separate phase which is the sentencing phase for so at which is the sentencing phase for so at which is the sentencing phase for so at least for a capital crime where it's how least for a capital crime where it's how least for a capital crime where it's how much does this person deserve to be much does this person deserve to be much does this person deserve to be punished and that is the point of the punished and that is the point of the punished and that is the point of the sentencing phase and that's where people sentencing phase and that's where people sentencing phase and that's where people come in and they that you have what are come in and they that you have what are come in and they that you have what are called mitigation specialists and their called mitigation specialists and their called mitigation specialists and their job is to humanize this defendant and job is to humanize this defendant and job is to humanize this defendant and say say say they were born pre-term, they were born they were born pre-term, they were born they were born pre-term, they were born addicted to drugs, they were deeply addicted to drugs, they were deeply addicted to drugs, they were deeply maltreated by their parents. They were a maltreated by their parents. They were a maltreated by their parents. They were a victim of sexual abuse. Here are the um victim of sexual abuse. Here are the um victim of sexual abuse. Here are the um things that have happened to them that things that have happened to them that things that have happened to them that might explain how they got to this might explain how they got to this might explain how they got to this place. place. place. What I find so interesting about that is What I find so interesting about that is What I find so interesting about that is there's this idea built into the system there's this idea built into the system there's this idea built into the system that some people have been negatively that some people have been negatively that some people have been negatively affected by luck and then there's other affected by luck and then there's other affected by luck and then there's other people who haven't, right? Like there's people who haven't, right? Like there's people who haven't, right? Like there's like everyone everyone got to the place like everyone everyone got to the place like everyone everyone got to the place where they were doing where they were doing where they were doing if they're at this point in a criminal if they're at this point in a criminal if they're at this point in a criminal trial. They've all gotten to this place trial. They've all gotten to this place trial. They've all gotten to this place somehow. somehow. somehow. >> And then the options are are you going >> And then the options are are you going >> And then the options are are you going to be incarcerated with no hope of to be incarcerated with no hope of to be incarcerated with no hope of rehabilitation forever versus only for rehabilitation forever versus only for rehabilitation forever versus only for 25 years? And that's different from how 25 years? And that's different from how 25 years? And that's different from how other societies and other countries other societies and other countries other societies and other countries treat this problem which is treat this problem which is treat this problem which is someone has harmed someone else someone has harmed someone else someone has harmed someone else grievously. grievously. grievously. What do we do now? So I think this whole What do we do now? So I think this whole What do we do now? So I think this whole process of like process of like process of like um someone's done something and now um someone's done something and now um someone's done something and now we're going to try to adjudicate how we're going to try to adjudicate how we're going to try to adjudicate how much it was environmental luck versus much it was environmental luck versus much it was environmental luck versus some some some magical free will that they might have magical free will that they might have magical free will that they might have versus genetics. and then we're going to versus genetics. and then we're going to versus genetics. and then we're going to send a blame value. send a blame value. send a blame value. >> At no point has have they brought >> At no point has have they brought >> At no point has have they brought genetics in. genetics in. genetics in. >> Well, that's what's I mean, I find this >> Well, that's what's I mean, I find this >> Well, that's what's I mean, I find this fascinating on so many levels. And it fascinating on so many levels. And it fascinating on so many levels. And it goes back to how academic philosophy goes back to how academic philosophy goes back to how academic philosophy doesn't match the public conversation. doesn't match the public conversation. doesn't match the public conversation. The reason why they don't bring genetics The reason why they don't bring genetics The reason why they don't bring genetics in is because bringing genetics in tends in is because bringing genetics in tends in is because bringing genetics in tends to make jurors and judges either has no to make jurors and judges either has no to make jurors and judges either has no effect on their retributive sentiments effect on their retributive sentiments effect on their retributive sentiments or it actually makes them more or it actually makes them more or it actually makes them more retributive. retributive. retributive. Oh, what was that experiment? Wasn't Oh, what was that experiment? Wasn't Oh, what was that experiment? Wasn't there some What was that experiment? there some What was that experiment? there some What was that experiment? >> It's a Okay, so there's an experiment >> It's a Okay, so there's an experiment >> It's a Okay, so there's an experiment where they have people Well, there's where they have people Well, there's where they have people Well, there's several, but I'm going to tell you about several, but I'm going to tell you about several, but I'm going to tell you about this one. Um, where they have just this one. Um, where they have just this one. Um, where they have just ordinary average Americans come into the ordinary average Americans come into the ordinary average Americans come into the lab and they are lab and they are lab and they are um given information about a number of um given information about a number of um given information about a number of hypothetical sperm donors and they say, hypothetical sperm donors and they say, hypothetical sperm donors and they say, you know, some people say, "This sperm you know, some people say, "This sperm you know, some people say, "This sperm donor read speaks French. This sperm donor read speaks French. This sperm donor read speaks French. This sperm donor is 6'4. This sperm donor is has a donor is 6'4. This sperm donor is has a donor is 6'4. This sperm donor is has a college education. This sperm donor has college education. This sperm donor has college education. This sperm donor has bipolar disorder. This sperm donor was bipolar disorder. This sperm donor was bipolar disorder. This sperm donor was later found to have committed a violent later found to have committed a violent later found to have committed a violent crime. And then they have to estimate crime. And then they have to estimate crime. And then they have to estimate what is the likelihood that a child what is the likelihood that a child what is the likelihood that a child conceived from this sperm would be tall, conceived from this sperm would be tall, conceived from this sperm would be tall, would graduate from college, would speak would graduate from college, would speak would graduate from college, would speak French, would would also commit a French, would would also commit a French, would would also commit a violent crime themselves. violent crime themselves. violent crime themselves. And then they ask, okay, so in this this And then they ask, okay, so in this this And then they ask, okay, so in this this situation in which um the child situation in which um the child situation in which um the child conceived from the sperm donor has conceived from the sperm donor has conceived from the sperm donor has committed a violent crime. committed a violent crime. committed a violent crime. Um here's details of the crime. You're Um here's details of the crime. You're Um here's details of the crime. You're on the jury. You have to recommend the on the jury. You have to recommend the on the jury. You have to recommend the sentence. sentence. sentence. How many years in prison do you think How many years in prison do you think How many years in prison do you think this person should get? this person should get? this person should get? >> So this person um >> So this person um >> So this person um uh I'm I'm forgetting the exact details, uh I'm I'm forgetting the exact details, uh I'm I'm forgetting the exact details, but it's something along the lines in but it's something along the lines in but it's something along the lines in the study. This person came up to a the study. This person came up to a the study. This person came up to a couple and they were leaving a movie couple and they were leaving a movie couple and they were leaving a movie theater and they tried to rob him and theater and they tried to rob him and theater and they tried to rob him and they ended up, you know, killing the they ended up, you know, killing the they ended up, you know, killing the male half of the couple uh with like a male half of the couple uh with like a male half of the couple uh with like a box cutter. box cutter. box cutter. >> So violent, >> So violent, >> So violent, impulsive impulsive impulsive superhero for a son superhero for a son superhero for a son >> and and so they're asked to put >> and and so they're asked to put >> and and so they're asked to put themselves in the in the jury's place. themselves in the in the jury's place. themselves in the in the jury's place. If you I'm going ask you this. So, if If you I'm going ask you this. So, if If you I'm going ask you this. So, if you were a juror and you had this you were a juror and you had this you were a juror and you had this >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> um case in front of you, how many years >> um case in front of you, how many years >> um case in front of you, how many years in prison would you recommend as the in prison would you recommend as the in prison would you recommend as the sentence for that? sentence for that? sentence for that? >> Just from that crime, I don't know >> Just from that crime, I don't know >> Just from that crime, I don't know anything. anything. anything. >> From that crime, you don't know anything >> From that crime, you don't know anything >> From that crime, you don't know anything else. else. else. >> 20. >> 20. >> 20. >> Yes. So, that's right about the average. >> Yes. So, that's right about the average. >> Yes. So, that's right about the average. I think the average in the study is I think the average in the study is I think the average in the study is between 20 and 25 between 20 and 25 between 20 and 25 >> years. But what they find is that the >> years. But what they find is that the >> years. But what they find is that the people who believe that violence can be people who believe that violence can be people who believe that violence can be inherited. So the people who believe inherited. So the people who believe inherited. So the people who believe that if the sperm donor was violent, the that if the sperm donor was violent, the that if the sperm donor was violent, the child conceived from that sperm is child conceived from that sperm is child conceived from that sperm is violent regardless of their upbringing violent regardless of their upbringing violent regardless of their upbringing actually suggested higher prison terms actually suggested higher prison terms actually suggested higher prison terms rather than lower. rather than lower. rather than lower. >> We need to keep that person incarcerated >> We need to keep that person incarcerated >> We need to keep that person incarcerated because they have so little control over because they have so little control over because they have so little control over their behavior that they might go and do their behavior that they might go and do their behavior that they might go and do it again. it again. it again. >> Yes. Exactly. So there's this >> Yes. Exactly. So there's this >> Yes. Exactly. So there's this interesting thing where both genes and interesting thing where both genes and interesting thing where both genes and your environment combine. They interact. your environment combine. They interact. your environment combine. They interact. They're interwoven to shape the person They're interwoven to shape the person They're interwoven to shape the person that you become who's more or less that you become who's more or less that you become who's more or less likely to do these things. But people likely to do these things. But people likely to do these things. But people reason about the genetic causes and the reason about the genetic causes and the reason about the genetic causes and the environmental causes differently. environmental causes differently. environmental causes differently. Whereas the environmental causes are Whereas the environmental causes are Whereas the environmental causes are more likely to be seen as mitigating. If more likely to be seen as mitigating. If more likely to be seen as mitigating. If you say this person committed a crime, you say this person committed a crime, you say this person committed a crime, but he was beaten by his parent. but he was beaten by his parent. but he was beaten by his parent. >> Oh wow, that is so crazy. Whereas if you >> Oh wow, that is so crazy. Whereas if you >> Oh wow, that is so crazy. Whereas if you say this person committed a crime and say this person committed a crime and say this person committed a crime and his dad also was violent and he maybe his dad also was violent and he maybe his dad also was violent and he maybe even has inherited genes and may be more even has inherited genes and may be more even has inherited genes and may be more retributive and that again like from the retributive and that again like from the retributive and that again like from the perspective of like aki style perspective of like aki style perspective of like aki style determinism that makes no sense right determinism that makes no sense right determinism that makes no sense right they're both causes but the average they're both causes but the average they're both causes but the average person the average juror the average person the average juror the average person the average juror the average judge reasons about the genetic causes judge reasons about the genetic causes judge reasons about the genetic causes and the environmental causes and the environmental causes and the environmental causes >> oh my god >> oh my god >> oh my god >> differently [ __ ] >> differently [ __ ] >> differently [ __ ] >> which I have lots of reason I have lots >> which I have lots of reason I have lots >> which I have lots of reason I have lots of thoughts thoughts as to why that is. of thoughts thoughts as to why that is. of thoughts thoughts as to why that is. But I think that's part of like part of But I think that's part of like part of But I think that's part of like part of why we have we don't have ready answers why we have we don't have ready answers why we have we don't have ready answers for how does our growing knowledge of for how does our growing knowledge of for how does our growing knowledge of the genotype fit into our everyday the genotype fit into our everyday the genotype fit into our everyday um blaming practices is because we as a um blaming practices is because we as a um blaming practices is because we as a culture are so confused about like or culture are so confused about like or culture are so confused about like or not even confused but we we reason about not even confused but we we reason about not even confused but we we reason about these things in such different ways. these things in such different ways. these things in such different ways. >> Well, let me give you why I think at >> Well, let me give you why I think at >> Well, let me give you why I think at least. least. least. >> Yeah. What's your theory about why >> Yeah. What's your theory about why >> Yeah. What's your theory about why >> one one part of it? I mean, first off, >> one one part of it? I mean, first off, >> one one part of it? I mean, first off, that is [ __ ] brilliant. I mean, it's that is [ __ ] brilliant. I mean, it's that is [ __ ] brilliant. I mean, it's tragic, but it's absolutely brilliant. tragic, but it's absolutely brilliant. tragic, but it's absolutely brilliant. The fact that you can have someone uh The fact that you can have someone uh The fact that you can have someone uh for whom all of the raw materials of for whom all of the raw materials of for whom all of the raw materials of being very aggressive and disregulated being very aggressive and disregulated being very aggressive and disregulated and antisocial with low inhibition and antisocial with low inhibition and antisocial with low inhibition somehow makes them somehow makes them somehow makes them more more more more deserving of retribution. more deserving of retribution. more deserving of retribution. uh and maybe in some ways actually less uh and maybe in some ways actually less uh and maybe in some ways actually less culpable but more deserving of culpable but more deserving of culpable but more deserving of retribution because in future they may retribution because in future they may retribution because in future they may do it again. Yeah. As opposed to this do it again. Yeah. As opposed to this do it again. Yeah. As opposed to this inherent sort of perspective we have. inherent sort of perspective we have. inherent sort of perspective we have. Well, he was such a sweet boy until dot Well, he was such a sweet boy until dot Well, he was such a sweet boy until dot dot dot and then this thing happened and dot dot and then this thing happened and dot dot and then this thing happened and sort of perverted or molested the sort of perverted or molested the sort of perverted or molested the direction of the that he would have been direction of the that he would have been direction of the that he would have been a good person. I think most of us see a good person. I think most of us see a good person. I think most of us see good in everybody else. And that's good in everybody else. And that's good in everybody else. And that's probably a very uh a right idea to sort probably a very uh a right idea to sort probably a very uh a right idea to sort of trust first and then scrutinize of trust first and then scrutinize of trust first and then scrutinize second. Um, personally I think that the second. Um, personally I think that the second. Um, personally I think that the entire world needs to read uh the entire world needs to read uh the entire world needs to read uh the genetic lottery and blueprint by [ __ ] genetic lottery and blueprint by [ __ ] genetic lottery and blueprint by [ __ ] plowman because just nobody plowman because just nobody plowman because just nobody the number of people who actually the number of people who actually the number of people who actually understand the genetic influence on understand the genetic influence on understand the genetic influence on behavior is essentially zero. It's behavior is essentially zero. It's behavior is essentially zero. It's essentially zero. Like when you and this essentially zero. Like when you and this essentially zero. Like when you and this has gotten worse I think we've learned has gotten worse I think we've learned has gotten worse I think we've learned less of it. We've somehow managed to less of it. We've somehow managed to less of it. We've somehow managed to unlearn [laughter] [ __ ] I mean, you unlearn [laughter] [ __ ] I mean, you unlearn [laughter] [ __ ] I mean, you even see this, even see this, even see this, >> you even and and >> you even and and >> you even and and maybe it's that we don't know or that we maybe it's that we don't know or that we maybe it's that we don't know or that we ignore because there's some fascinating ignore because there's some fascinating ignore because there's some fascinating studies around when you ask women what studies around when you ask women what studies around when you ask women what sort of traits they want in a sperm sort of traits they want in a sperm sort of traits they want in a sperm donor versus what sort of traits they donor versus what sort of traits they donor versus what sort of traits they want in a partner, you get some really want in a partner, you get some really want in a partner, you get some really interesting differences. interesting differences. interesting differences. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Because what you get to do is separate >> Because what you get to do is separate >> Because what you get to do is separate out um the traits I want in my future out um the traits I want in my future out um the traits I want in my future children children children >> from the traits that I'm versus the >> from the traits that I'm versus the >> from the traits that I'm versus the traits I'm going to be attracted to. traits I'm going to be attracted to. traits I'm going to be attracted to. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh because I don't need your investment. >> Uh because I don't need your investment. >> Uh because I don't need your investment. I don't need I don't need I don't need >> Yeah, that's interesting. >> Yeah, that's interesting. >> Yeah, that's interesting. >> So when you split those up, so just the >> So when you split those up, so just the >> So when you split those up, so just the fact that that exists shows that people, fact that that exists shows that people, fact that that exists shows that people, at least women, understand that their at least women, understand that their at least women, understand that their kids are going to be made of the raw kids are going to be made of the raw kids are going to be made of the raw materials of the person that they have materials of the person that they have materials of the person that they have them with. Yeah, but I I think the the them with. Yeah, but I I think the the them with. Yeah, but I I think the the the big problem is just a denial of the the big problem is just a denial of the the big problem is just a denial of the genetic influence on behavior or a lack genetic influence on behavior or a lack genetic influence on behavior or a lack of understanding or a belief that there of understanding or a belief that there of understanding or a belief that there is some sort of a limit that you know is some sort of a limit that you know is some sort of a limit that you know very pervasive blank slateist very pervasive blank slateist very pervasive blank slateist perspective which you were thrown under perspective which you were thrown under perspective which you were thrown under the bus for going against after your the bus for going against after your the bus for going against after your last book and last book and last book and >> anytime that I want to try and talk >> anytime that I want to try and talk >> anytime that I want to try and talk about plowman or any embryo selection or about plowman or any embryo selection or about plowman or any embryo selection or anything it just anything it just anything it just Hitler's got a lot to answer for, right? Hitler's got a lot to answer for, right? Hitler's got a lot to answer for, right? But this is another one of those things But this is another one of those things But this is another one of those things >> we should definitely come back to embryo >> we should definitely come back to embryo >> we should definitely come back to embryo selection. So I you said many selection. So I you said many selection. So I you said many interesting things in there. interesting things in there. interesting things in there. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> I think there's Okay, so one interesting >> I think there's Okay, so one interesting >> I think there's Okay, so one interesting you thing you said was with the guy who you thing you said was with the guy who you thing you said was with the guy who was abused, you can think, oh, but he was abused, you can think, oh, but he was abused, you can think, oh, but he was a sweet kid and then this happened. was a sweet kid and then this happened. was a sweet kid and then this happened. What you can do is you can imagine an What you can do is you can imagine an What you can do is you can imagine an alternate self, an alternate person alternate self, an alternate person alternate self, an alternate person where where where this didn't happen to him and you can this didn't happen to him and you can this didn't happen to him and you can empathize with this counterfactual. What empathize with this counterfactual. What empathize with this counterfactual. What would he have been like if he hadn't would he have been like if he hadn't would he have been like if he hadn't been abused or what would he be like if been abused or what would he be like if been abused or what would he be like if he hadn't um gotten a brain tumor? Um he hadn't um gotten a brain tumor? Um he hadn't um gotten a brain tumor? Um whereas with genes, whereas with genes, whereas with genes, it's much harder to come up with the it's much harder to come up with the it's much harder to come up with the alternate version of the person if they alternate version of the person if they alternate version of the person if they didn't have their genotype. didn't have their genotype. didn't have their genotype. >> And and that gets into into the idea of >> And and that gets into into the idea of >> And and that gets into into the idea of genetic essentialism. So genetic genetic essentialism. So genetic genetic essentialism. So genetic determinism is my genes made me do it. determinism is my genes made me do it. determinism is my genes made me do it. My genes determine my behavior. So maybe My genes determine my behavior. So maybe My genes determine my behavior. So maybe I'm less culpable for my behavior. And I'm less culpable for my behavior. And I'm less culpable for my behavior. And that's one frame that we can think about that's one frame that we can think about that's one frame that we can think about genes and it happens a lot, right? like genes and it happens a lot, right? like genes and it happens a lot, right? like I I am genetically predisposed to I I am genetically predisposed to I I am genetically predisposed to um have a higher body weight. So um have a higher body weight. So um have a higher body weight. So therefore I'm not at fault if I have a therefore I'm not at fault if I have a therefore I'm not at fault if I have a higher body weight. Like that's a higher body weight. Like that's a higher body weight. Like that's a conversation that we're having in our conversation that we're having in our conversation that we're having in our culture. And that's a genetic culture. And that's a genetic culture. And that's a genetic determinist frame. determinist frame. determinist frame. >> But it can switch to a genetic >> But it can switch to a genetic >> But it can switch to a genetic essentialist frame where it's your genes essentialist frame where it's your genes essentialist frame where it's your genes caused you to be a bad to do a bad caused you to be a bad to do a bad caused you to be a bad to do a bad thing. Therefore you are a bad person. thing. Therefore you are a bad person. thing. Therefore you are a bad person. like an inherently bad person. like an inherently bad person. like an inherently bad person. >> Genetic morality. >> Genetic morality. >> Genetic morality. >> Yes. You're bad to the bone. You're a >> Yes. You're bad to the bone. You're a >> Yes. You're bad to the bone. You're a naturalb born killer. You're bad seed. naturalb born killer. You're bad seed. naturalb born killer. You're bad seed. Right. We have these English idioms Right. We have these English idioms Right. We have these English idioms >> that reflect an idea that we can kind of >> that reflect an idea that we can kind of >> that reflect an idea that we can kind of wander into which is there is an essence wander into which is there is an essence wander into which is there is an essence to a person. There's a true self. to a person. There's a true self. to a person. There's a true self. There's a deep down thing that is Chris. There's a deep down thing that is Chris. There's a deep down thing that is Chris. >> And in a previous time, we might have >> And in a previous time, we might have >> And in a previous time, we might have thought that was your soul or that was thought that was your soul or that was thought that was your soul or that was your spirit. M your spirit. M your spirit. M >> and people talk about how genes have >> and people talk about how genes have >> and people talk about how genes have become a a quote unquote essence become a a quote unquote essence become a a quote unquote essence placeholder. So now instead of talking placeholder. So now instead of talking placeholder. So now instead of talking about like Chris's immortal soul, we about like Chris's immortal soul, we about like Chris's immortal soul, we might think well Chris's genes are his might think well Chris's genes are his might think well Chris's genes are his true self, his deepest self. And it's true self, his deepest self. And it's true self, his deepest self. And it's when people switch from genetic when people switch from genetic when people switch from genetic determinism to genetic essentialism that determinism to genetic essentialism that determinism to genetic essentialism that genes stop being reliably mitigating genes stop being reliably mitigating genes stop being reliably mitigating because it's not. You were shaped by because it's not. You were shaped by because it's not. You were shaped by luck and so therefore none of us is luck and so therefore none of us is luck and so therefore none of us is fully under you know none of us none of fully under you know none of us none of fully under you know none of us none of us na said something like no one you us na said something like no one you us na said something like no one you know dragged himself by the hair out of know dragged himself by the hair out of know dragged himself by the hair out of the swamp right like no one is creating the swamp right like no one is creating the swamp right like no one is creating themselves from scratch but if you themselves from scratch but if you themselves from scratch but if you switch to the essentialist frame it's I switch to the essentialist frame it's I switch to the essentialist frame it's I don't care what your genes are your don't care what your genes are your don't care what your genes are your genes are who you really are and now genes are who you really are and now genes are who you really are and now you're telling me that this person is you're telling me that this person is you're telling me that this person is essentially bad essentially bad essentially bad >> like why would that make me feel more >> like why would that make me feel more >> like why would that make me feel more sympathy for them sympathy for them sympathy for them >> a quick aside you've probably heard >> a quick aside you've probably heard >> a quick aside you've probably heard heard experts like Dr. Ronda Patrick heard experts like Dr. Ronda Patrick heard experts like Dr. Ronda Patrick talk about the benefits of omega-3s. talk about the benefits of omega-3s. talk about the benefits of omega-3s. 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Right now, you can get 35% off your first now, you can get 35% off your first now, you can get 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money back subscription and that 30-day money back subscription and that 30-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the guarantee by going to the link in the guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to description below or heading to description below or heading to livemus.com/modernwisdom livemus.com/modernwisdom livemus.com/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom a and using the code modernwisdom a and using the code modernwisdom a checkout. That's lie checkout. That's lie checkout. That's lie mus.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom a checkout. and modernwisdom a checkout. What about what else has been What about what else has been What about what else has been experimentally tested around experimentally tested around experimentally tested around retribution? I'm pretty interested in retribution? I'm pretty interested in retribution? I'm pretty interested in the role that this has. the role that this has. the role that this has. >> Yeah. So, retribution is something >> Yeah. So, retribution is something >> Yeah. So, retribution is something So, retribution is in in my mind the So, retribution is in in my mind the So, retribution is in in my mind the desire to make another person suffer. desire to make another person suffer. desire to make another person suffer. It is a instinct that emerges very early It is a instinct that emerges very early It is a instinct that emerges very early in childhood development. There's some in childhood development. There's some in childhood development. There's some great work by Paul Bloom and his great work by Paul Bloom and his great work by Paul Bloom and his colleagues showing that, you know, three colleagues showing that, you know, three colleagues showing that, you know, three year olds are not that retributive, but year olds are not that retributive, but year olds are not that retributive, but by the time you're five, by the time you're five, by the time you're five, um, 5-year-olds will pay stickers, um, 5-year-olds will pay stickers, um, 5-year-olds will pay stickers, you know, their version of money, this you know, their version of money, this you know, their version of money, this prize that they really like prize that they really like prize that they really like >> in order to see um, someone who has been >> in order to see um, someone who has been >> in order to see um, someone who has been portrayed as taking away a ball clubbed portrayed as taking away a ball clubbed portrayed as taking away a ball clubbed by a by a puppet. So it's like you by a by a puppet. So it's like you by a by a puppet. So it's like you children will pay to see someone that children will pay to see someone that children will pay to see someone that they think is a ball taker like they think is a ball taker like they think is a ball taker like physically hit. physically hit. physically hit. >> What do you think that is before we even >> What do you think that is before we even >> What do you think that is before we even get into that? What's what is the get into that? What's what is the get into that? What's what is the emotional drive for retribution? emotional drive for retribution? emotional drive for retribution? >> I think it's an evolved cooperation >> I think it's an evolved cooperation >> I think it's an evolved cooperation enforcement mechanism. enforcement mechanism. enforcement mechanism. >> Y >> Y >> Y >> I think that um we experience >> I think that um we experience >> I think that um we experience dopamine being released. we experience dopamine being released. we experience dopamine being released. we experience this kind of neurobiological mechanism this kind of neurobiological mechanism this kind of neurobiological mechanism of wanting of wanting of wanting um when we do things that historically um when we do things that historically um when we do things that historically have been good for human survival and have been good for human survival and have been good for human survival and fitness, right? Like we don't go walk fitness, right? Like we don't go walk fitness, right? Like we don't go walk around and being like, "Oh, maybe I around and being like, "Oh, maybe I around and being like, "Oh, maybe I should eat in 3 days." Like it feels should eat in 3 days." Like it feels should eat in 3 days." Like it feels good to eat. It feels good to have sex. good to eat. It feels good to have sex. good to eat. It feels good to have sex. It feels good to drink water. Because we It feels good to drink water. Because we It feels good to drink water. Because we have to do all of that to exist and have to do all of that to exist and have to do all of that to exist and survive and propagate our genes. And we survive and propagate our genes. And we survive and propagate our genes. And we also feel good. We also see dopamine also feel good. We also see dopamine also feel good. We also see dopamine being released in the vententral stratum being released in the vententral stratum being released in the vententral stratum when we see someone who's been portrayed when we see someone who's been portrayed when we see someone who's been portrayed as a wrongdoer as a wrongdoer as a wrongdoer be made to suffer. be made to suffer. be made to suffer. >> Has that been tested experimentally? >> Has that been tested experimentally? >> Has that been tested experimentally? >> Yes, you can see that in the scanner. So >> Yes, you can see that in the scanner. So >> Yes, you can see that in the scanner. So ordinarily if you see someone be be ordinarily if you see someone be be ordinarily if you see someone be be hurt, you have an empathic response. But hurt, you have an empathic response. But hurt, you have an empathic response. But if you if that person who's being hurt if you if that person who's being hurt if you if that person who's being hurt is first portrayed as violating some is first portrayed as violating some is first portrayed as violating some cooperative or moral norm, then what you cooperative or moral norm, then what you cooperative or moral norm, then what you see in the scanner is that people show a see in the scanner is that people show a see in the scanner is that people show a pattern that's consistent with reward pattern that's consistent with reward pattern that's consistent with reward when they see that person suffer. And I when they see that person suffer. And I when they see that person suffer. And I think the fact that you see it in the think the fact that you see it in the think the fact that you see it in the same areas, in the same same areas, in the same same areas, in the same neurotransmitters, as you see other neurotransmitters, as you see other neurotransmitters, as you see other other basically rewarding processes is a other basically rewarding processes is a other basically rewarding processes is a clue that this is something that was clue that this is something that was clue that this is something that was necessary. that sense of at least necessary. that sense of at least necessary. that sense of at least outrage outrage outrage >> and um willingness to endure some cost >> and um willingness to endure some cost >> and um willingness to endure some cost in order to enforce your cooperative in order to enforce your cooperative in order to enforce your cooperative norms against someone else. norms against someone else. norms against someone else. >> Willingness to endure some cost. >> Willingness to endure some cost. >> Willingness to endure some cost. >> So I one way that we can also see >> So I one way that we can also see >> So I one way that we can also see whether or not someone's um find whether or not someone's um find whether or not someone's um find something rewarding is are they willing something rewarding is are they willing something rewarding is are they willing to pay for it. like children will pay to pay for it. like children will pay to pay for it. like children will pay stickers, adults will pay money. Um, and stickers, adults will pay money. Um, and stickers, adults will pay money. Um, and so that we there's these economic games so that we there's these economic games so that we there's these economic games where you see how much digital money where you see how much digital money where you see how much digital money will someone pay for the opportunity to will someone pay for the opportunity to will someone pay for the opportunity to punish a freeloader, punish a freeloader, punish a freeloader, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> All of these are >> All of these are >> All of these are >> but if it was somebody that hadn't been >> but if it was somebody that hadn't been >> but if it was somebody that hadn't been seen as a defector previously, they seen as a defector previously, they seen as a defector previously, they would be like, why am I going to give my would be like, why am I going to give my would be like, why am I going to give my money to punish this person that didn't money to punish this person that didn't money to punish this person that didn't do anything and make even give you money do anything and make even give you money do anything and make even give you money to not punish the person that didn't do to not punish the person that didn't do to not punish the person that didn't do anything wrong? That would be anything wrong? That would be anything wrong? That would be pro-social. pro-social. pro-social. >> Exactly. What it's got me thinking about >> Exactly. What it's got me thinking about >> Exactly. What it's got me thinking about if if we feel pleasure if if we feel pleasure if if we feel pleasure when somebody who is seen to have when somebody who is seen to have when somebody who is seen to have contravene some social contract is contravene some social contract is contravene some social contract is punished. punished. punished. This explains why Hitler called Jews This explains why Hitler called Jews This explains why Hitler called Jews vermin and rats to dehumanize them vermin and rats to dehumanize them vermin and rats to dehumanize them because that then legitimates because that then legitimates because that then legitimates >> and traders globalist traders are >> and traders globalist traders are >> and traders globalist traders are >> that is their transgression. The the >> that is their transgression. The the >> that is their transgression. The the othering thing makes sense. the um othering thing makes sense. the um othering thing makes sense. the um reason that we want to care so much reason that we want to care so much reason that we want to care so much about our reputation uh makes an awful about our reputation uh makes an awful about our reputation uh makes an awful lot of sense because somewhere in the lot of sense because somewhere in the lot of sense because somewhere in the back of our mind we realize if I'm not back of our mind we realize if I'm not back of our mind we realize if I'm not careful and if the optics of Chris or if careful and if the optics of Chris or if careful and if the optics of Chris or if the optics of Paige are the optics of Paige are the optics of Paige are sufficiently poorly interpreted that not sufficiently poorly interpreted that not sufficiently poorly interpreted that not only might other people not want to only might other people not want to only might other people not want to support me but other people might want support me but other people might want support me but other people might want to punish me and not only might they to punish me and not only might they to punish me and not only might they want to punish me they might get want to punish me they might get want to punish me they might get pleasure from punishing me and they pleasure from punishing me and they pleasure from punishing me and they might get pleasure from watching other might get pleasure from watching other might get pleasure from watching other people punish me and they might even pay people punish me and they might even pay people punish me and they might even pay a cost in order to support it. a cost in order to support it. a cost in order to support it. >> So, you know, it really does reinforce what's important is not who you are. what's important is not who you are. What's important is what other people What's important is what other people What's important is what other people think you are. think you are. think you are. >> And I think you see this play out. You >> And I think you see this play out. You >> And I think you see this play out. You know, empathy is painful. Like to see know, empathy is painful. Like to see know, empathy is painful. Like to see someone be hurt and hurt for them, hurt someone be hurt and hurt for them, hurt someone be hurt and hurt for them, hurt with them is so uncomfortable. with them is so uncomfortable. with them is so uncomfortable. >> Mhm. And if that person was a wrongdoer, >> Mhm. And if that person was a wrongdoer, >> Mhm. And if that person was a wrongdoer, then I could alchemize that pain into then I could alchemize that pain into then I could alchemize that pain into pleasure. And I think that gives us the pleasure. And I think that gives us the pleasure. And I think that gives us the temptation to search for the ways in temptation to search for the ways in temptation to search for the ways in which this is how I'm going to get some which this is how I'm going to get some which this is how I'm going to get some pleasure. I'm going to f my morality is pleasure. I'm going to f my morality is pleasure. I'm going to f my morality is going to stand on the shoulders of other going to stand on the shoulders of other going to stand on the shoulders of other people that have fallen behind. So, we people that have fallen behind. So, we people that have fallen behind. So, we saw this two interesting things that saw this two interesting things that saw this two interesting things that we're obviously we're in the middle of we're obviously we're in the middle of we're obviously we're in the middle of the [ __ ] Epstein furora at the the [ __ ] Epstein furora at the the [ __ ] Epstein furora at the moment. moment. moment. >> And uh a couple of things I've noticed. >> And uh a couple of things I've noticed. >> And uh a couple of things I've noticed. First one was um a bunch of memes First one was um a bunch of memes First one was um a bunch of memes floating around about Mark Zuckerberg floating around about Mark Zuckerberg floating around about Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos that neither of them seem and Jeff Bezos that neither of them seem and Jeff Bezos that neither of them seem to appear in the Epstein emails, at to appear in the Epstein emails, at to appear in the Epstein emails, at least not yet. And um that was they were least not yet. And um that was they were least not yet. And um that was they were sort of lorded as super cads of the sort of lorded as super cads of the sort of lorded as super cads of the internet because they hadn't presumably internet because they hadn't presumably internet because they hadn't presumably they had the opportunity to go but they they had the opportunity to go but they they had the opportunity to go but they didn't something like that. Uh and that didn't something like that. Uh and that didn't something like that. Uh and that made me think, oh, people see morality made me think, oh, people see morality made me think, oh, people see morality as zero sum. So that those two people by as zero sum. So that those two people by as zero sum. So that those two people by doing nothing differently to what doing nothing differently to what doing nothing differently to what they've done yesterday to today because they've done yesterday to today because they've done yesterday to today because the total amount of morality in the the total amount of morality in the the total amount of morality in the other people was decreased, other people was decreased, other people was decreased, >> the remaining people have sort of all >> the remaining people have sort of all >> the remaining people have sort of all been raised up by it. like the fact that been raised up by it. like the fact that been raised up by it. like the fact that this owner of a fashion brand and this this owner of a fashion brand and this this owner of a fashion brand and this shake were in the emails but other shake were in the emails but other shake were in the emails but other people who are peers of theirs weren't. people who are peers of theirs weren't. people who are peers of theirs weren't. They lost so you gain. So there is this They lost so you gain. So there is this They lost so you gain. So there is this sort of um supply this fixed supply of sort of um supply this fixed supply of sort of um supply this fixed supply of morality and by some people losing it morality and by some people losing it morality and by some people losing it others have been have been raised. So it others have been have been raised. So it others have been have been raised. So it wasn't just you're not as bad as them wasn't just you're not as bad as them wasn't just you're not as bad as them it's you're actively better than you it's you're actively better than you it's you're actively better than you were before. were before. were before. >> Yeah. the standards have shifted. >> Yeah. the standards have shifted. >> Yeah. the standards have shifted. >> You have been increased by this. I >> You have been increased by this. I >> You have been increased by this. I thought that was really interesting. thought that was really interesting. thought that was really interesting. >> I mean, I think if you if you see any >> I mean, I think if you if you see any >> I mean, I think if you if you see any victim of violence, victim of violence, victim of violence, the process by which others then seize the process by which others then seize the process by which others then seize on what they might have ever done wrong on what they might have ever done wrong on what they might have ever done wrong in their life and transmit that. Once in their life and transmit that. Once in their life and transmit that. Once you start noticing that pattern, it's you start noticing that pattern, it's you start noticing that pattern, it's really, really obvious. really, really obvious. really, really obvious. >> Can you say that in a different way? So, >> Can you say that in a different way? So, >> Can you say that in a different way? So, someone is um uh someone is um uh someone is um uh uh victimized by the police and there's uh victimized by the police and there's uh victimized by the police and there's a debate about whether or not, you know, a debate about whether or not, you know, a debate about whether or not, you know, the police were justified in hurting the police were justified in hurting the police were justified in hurting this person or whether the person was this person or whether the person was this person or whether the person was resisting arrest. resisting arrest. resisting arrest. And then you have this And then you have this And then you have this always this outpouring of news about always this outpouring of news about always this outpouring of news about everything that this person has done in everything that this person has done in everything that this person has done in their life. And it's they were an honor their life. And it's they were an honor their life. And it's they were an honor student. They were, you know, they love student. They were, you know, they love student. They were, you know, they love to play the guitar. And then it was to play the guitar. And then it was to play the guitar. And then it was like, no, they once shoplifted or they like, no, they once shoplifted or they like, no, they once shoplifted or they once like kicked a tire five five years once like kicked a tire five five years once like kicked a tire five five years ago. ago. ago. >> What is that? Like why are why are we >> What is that? Like why are why are we >> What is that? Like why are why are we having this this not just in the having this this not just in the having this this not just in the incident but the everything leading up incident but the everything leading up incident but the everything leading up to it this moral reckoning with whether to it this moral reckoning with whether to it this moral reckoning with whether or not this person ever did a bad thing or not this person ever did a bad thing or not this person ever did a bad thing or was a did a ever ever ever did an or was a did a ever ever ever did an or was a did a ever ever ever did an admirable thing. And I think the process admirable thing. And I think the process admirable thing. And I think the process behind that is really complicated. It's behind that is really complicated. It's behind that is really complicated. It's not just one pro, not not just one thing not just one pro, not not just one thing not just one pro, not not just one thing that's going into that kind of that's going into that kind of that's going into that kind of um digging through the person who's died um digging through the person who's died um digging through the person who's died life. But if you remember that if you're life. But if you remember that if you're life. But if you remember that if you're feeling empathy for someone suffering, feeling empathy for someone suffering, feeling empathy for someone suffering, you can you can you can toggle it over to pleasure if you can toggle it over to pleasure if you can toggle it over to pleasure if you can convince yourself that they're bad and convince yourself that they're bad and convince yourself that they're bad and they deserved it. It is such a they deserved it. It is such a they deserved it. It is such a temptation. temptation. temptation. >> It is so wild. >> It is so wild. >> It is so wild. >> It's such a temptation. that's out >> It's such a temptation. that's out >> It's such a temptation. that's out there. there. there. >> Well, it's the freest it's some of the >> Well, it's the freest it's some of the >> Well, it's the freest it's some of the freest pleasure that you're ever going freest pleasure that you're ever going freest pleasure that you're ever going to get as well. It's it's completely to get as well. It's it's completely to get as well. It's it's completely costless to you. And you you would be costless to you. And you you would be costless to you. And you you would be familiar with the bless her heart effect familiar with the bless her heart effect familiar with the bless her heart effect from evolutionary psychology. from evolutionary psychology. from evolutionary psychology. >> Um it's one of the reasons that uh >> Um it's one of the reasons that uh >> Um it's one of the reasons that uh female interexual competition has female interexual competition has female interexual competition has venting whereas male intraexual venting whereas male intraexual venting whereas male intraexual competition tends not to in quite the competition tends not to in quite the competition tends not to in quite the same way. And it's um Paige, I'm really same way. And it's um Paige, I'm really same way. And it's um Paige, I'm really worried about uh about Jenny. Like she worried about uh about Jenny. Like she worried about uh about Jenny. Like she just keeps on sleeping with all of these just keeps on sleeping with all of these just keeps on sleeping with all of these guys and I'm so worried about guys and I'm so worried about guys and I'm so worried about >> Oh, it's like bow concern. Yeah. >> Oh, it's like bow concern. Yeah. >> Oh, it's like bow concern. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's vent. So you're allow >> Yeah. Yeah. It's vent. So you're allow >> Yeah. Yeah. It's vent. So you're allow you're um what is couched under you're um what is couched under you're um what is couched under pro-social concern for somebody else is pro-social concern for somebody else is pro-social concern for somebody else is actually a way of spreading rumor. But actually a way of spreading rumor. But actually a way of spreading rumor. But implicit in that is I mean I would never implicit in that is I mean I would never implicit in that is I mean I would never sleep at the No, of I mean not me but sleep at the No, of I mean not me but sleep at the No, of I mean not me but I'm worried about Jenny. So it's this I'm worried about Jenny. So it's this I'm worried about Jenny. So it's this sort of very paternalistic very caring sort of very paternalistic very caring sort of very paternalistic very caring but but but >> what you get with this is something not >> what you get with this is something not >> what you get with this is something not too dissimilar where too dissimilar where too dissimilar where your morality gets to stand on the your morality gets to stand on the your morality gets to stand on the shoulders of somebody else's. So not shoulders of somebody else's. So not shoulders of somebody else's. So not only you getting the pleasure at this only you getting the pleasure at this only you getting the pleasure at this person who rightly or wrongly you think person who rightly or wrongly you think person who rightly or wrongly you think is a defector of the social laws but you is a defector of the social laws but you is a defector of the social laws but you by pointing it out by pointing it out by pointing it out >> so good you get to feel like >> so good you get to feel like >> so good you get to feel like >> everyone else gets to see you as the oh >> everyone else gets to see you as the oh >> everyone else gets to see you as the oh it's always good that that Christine was it's always good that that Christine was it's always good that that Christine was there you know to tell us about the bad there you know to tell us about the bad there you know to tell us about the bad behavior of Jenny isn't that so uh yeah behavior of Jenny isn't that so uh yeah behavior of Jenny isn't that so uh yeah your morality gets to stand on their your morality gets to stand on their your morality gets to stand on their shoulders and I think um there are a lot shoulders and I think um there are a lot shoulders and I think um there are a lot of of of >> combining >> combining >> combining reward pathways to get people to behave reward pathways to get people to behave reward pathways to get people to behave in this sort of a manner. Their sense of in this sort of a manner. Their sense of in this sort of a manner. Their sense of uh social righteousness gets raised up. uh social righteousness gets raised up. uh social righteousness gets raised up. They just They just They just endogenously get pinged with a [ __ ] endogenously get pinged with a [ __ ] endogenously get pinged with a [ __ ] ton of dopamine for having done this ton of dopamine for having done this ton of dopamine for having done this thing. they get to potentially the sort thing. they get to potentially the sort thing. they get to potentially the sort of justified self-deception or true uh of justified self-deception or true uh of justified self-deception or true uh honest approach to this is uh that honest approach to this is uh that honest approach to this is uh that person needs to be uh told that they've person needs to be uh told that they've person needs to be uh told that they've misbehaved and pushed out and misbehaved and pushed out and misbehaved and pushed out and potentially we need to be protected from potentially we need to be protected from potentially we need to be protected from them so they need to be outcast them so they need to be outcast them so they need to be outcast sufficiently um and it's all messed up sufficiently um and it's all messed up sufficiently um and it's all messed up in is do they do do they should they be in is do they do do they should they be in is do they do do they should they be on the outside or are they are we on the outside or are they are we on the outside or are they are we actually actually actually >> yeah and I think so this idea of like >> yeah and I think so this idea of like >> yeah and I think so this idea of like you just said pushed out right? Like you just said pushed out right? Like you just said pushed out right? Like pushed out this idea that we're deciding pushed out this idea that we're deciding pushed out this idea that we're deciding who gets the protection of the group and who gets the protection of the group and who gets the protection of the group and who is going to be cast as an outsider, who is going to be cast as an outsider, who is going to be cast as an outsider, as a moral reparate, as someone who as a moral reparate, as someone who as a moral reparate, as someone who deserved it and then they can be pushed deserved it and then they can be pushed deserved it and then they can be pushed out. They can be pushed out of life out. They can be pushed out of life out. They can be pushed out of life >> and we still feel pleasure at it. The >> and we still feel pleasure at it. The >> and we still feel pleasure at it. The other thing about the you know the other thing about the you know the other thing about the you know the pleasure of retribution pleasure of retribution pleasure of retribution thinking about that changed my thinking thinking about that changed my thinking thinking about that changed my thinking is is is we have evolved pleasure at eating sugar we have evolved pleasure at eating sugar we have evolved pleasure at eating sugar that's was necessary for our that's was necessary for our that's was necessary for our survival of our species survival of our species survival of our species >> and then now we're in an environment >> and then now we're in an environment >> and then now we're in an environment where you can either eat that where you can either eat that where you can either eat that sugar on steroids ultrarocessed foods sugar on steroids ultrarocessed foods sugar on steroids ultrarocessed foods foods with no other nutritional value. foods with no other nutritional value. foods with no other nutritional value. >> You're thinking about scapegoating on >> You're thinking about scapegoating on >> You're thinking about scapegoating on steroids, steroids, steroids, >> right? And or you can say that that >> right? And or you can say that that >> right? And or you can say that that evolved desire is important and it's not evolved desire is important and it's not evolved desire is important and it's not going away and I'm not going to academic going away and I'm not going to academic going away and I'm not going to academic philosophy my way out of it, philosophy my way out of it, philosophy my way out of it, >> but I'm also not going to let it lead. >> but I'm also not going to let it lead. >> but I'm also not going to let it lead. >> You think we need a Zenic for >> You think we need a Zenic for >> You think we need a Zenic for retribution? retribution? retribution? >> And I I mean, or I think we need like a >> And I I mean, or I think we need like a >> And I I mean, or I think we need like a better food culture for retribution. I better food culture for retribution. I better food culture for retribution. I mean, I think I I really think that so mean, I think I I really think that so mean, I think I I really think that so much of American culture is predicated much of American culture is predicated much of American culture is predicated on feeding people the retributive on feeding people the retributive on feeding people the retributive version of empty calories. How can I get version of empty calories. How can I get version of empty calories. How can I get you to feel good that other people you to feel good that other people you to feel good that other people suffering and convince you that you're suffering and convince you that you're suffering and convince you that you're that you're a good and you get to feel that you're a good and you get to feel that you're a good and you get to feel like a good person while you doing it like a good person while you doing it like a good person while you doing it while you're doing it? Like what a draw. while you're doing it? Like what a draw. while you're doing it? Like what a draw. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> Um, in my new book, I talk about this >> Um, in my new book, I talk about this >> Um, in my new book, I talk about this trial that, um, took place in Norway trial that, um, took place in Norway trial that, um, took place in Norway when there was, you know, Norway has when there was, you know, Norway has when there was, you know, Norway has so much less crime, so much less violent so much less crime, so much less violent so much less crime, so much less violent crime than the United States does. They crime than the United States does. They crime than the United States does. They incarcerate way fewer people. They incarcerate way fewer people. They incarcerate way fewer people. They incarcerate them less in less harsh incarcerate them less in less harsh incarcerate them less in less harsh institutions for much shorter periods of institutions for much shorter periods of institutions for much shorter periods of time. Um, and it's very rare for them to time. Um, and it's very rare for them to time. Um, and it's very rare for them to have like a mass shooting event. have like a mass shooting event. have like a mass shooting event. And but they did they had this guy And but they did they had this guy And but they did they had this guy Anders Brie who um shot I think 60 Anders Brie who um shot I think 60 Anders Brie who um shot I think 60 children on a um an island. They were children on a um an island. They were children on a um an island. They were there for a summer camp. It was the there for a summer camp. It was the there for a summer camp. It was the worst mass murder in Norway's history. worst mass murder in Norway's history. worst mass murder in Norway's history. Um this is someone who has had t like Um this is someone who has had t like Um this is someone who has had t like who had terrible genetic and who had terrible genetic and who had terrible genetic and environmental luck. He had environmental luck. He had environmental luck. He had >> um a very unstable mother and it also he >> um a very unstable mother and it also he >> um a very unstable mother and it also he was described as someone who was was described as someone who was was described as someone who was antisocial from the time he was three or antisocial from the time he was three or antisocial from the time he was three or four. Norway has this incredible four. Norway has this incredible four. Norway has this incredible wraparound social welfare state and um wraparound social welfare state and um wraparound social welfare state and um so you can see the so you can see the so you can see the >> high visibility >> high visibility >> high visibility >> the notes from the social worker being >> the notes from the social worker being >> the notes from the social worker being like this child is aggressive and like this child is aggressive and like this child is aggressive and violent. The other kids won't be aren't violent. The other kids won't be aren't violent. The other kids won't be aren't allowed to play with him because he allowed to play with him because he allowed to play with him because he keeps torturing their pets when he's keeps torturing their pets when he's keeps torturing their pets when he's five. So even in this in this five. So even in this in this five. So even in this in this environment where there's incredible environment where there's incredible environment where there's incredible social resources, this person still grew social resources, this person still grew social resources, this person still grew up and still grew up to be violent. I up and still grew up to be violent. I up and still grew up to be violent. I found the trial fascinating found the trial fascinating found the trial fascinating um because they ultimately um because they ultimately um because they ultimately sentenced him to the maximum sentence in sentenced him to the maximum sentence in sentenced him to the maximum sentence in Norway, which is 21 years. Norway, which is 21 years. Norway, which is 21 years. >> Doesn't seem like a lot. It's what, like >> Doesn't seem like a lot. It's what, like >> Doesn't seem like a lot. It's what, like four months per child. and they gave him four months per child. and they gave him four months per child. and they gave him he's in the maximum security prison he's in the maximum security prison he's in the maximum security prison which um there was an Instagram meme which um there was an Instagram meme which um there was an Instagram meme which is is this a Norwegian prison or a which is is this a Norwegian prison or a which is is this a Norwegian prison or a London hotel room and people can't tell London hotel room and people can't tell London hotel room and people can't tell the difference between and the only the difference between and the only the difference between and the only thing that puts it away is the security thing that puts it away is the security thing that puts it away is the security camera dome on the ceiling of the prison camera dome on the ceiling of the prison camera dome on the ceiling of the prison room. room. room. >> So things that seem quite cushy for an >> So things that seem quite cushy for an >> So things that seem quite cushy for an American system. Um and in the trial you American system. Um and in the trial you American system. Um and in the trial you see the reckoning of a society where see the reckoning of a society where see the reckoning of a society where they are saying they are saying they are saying this person did a horrible thing. We this person did a horrible thing. We this person did a horrible thing. We have our maximum retributive impulses have our maximum retributive impulses have our maximum retributive impulses towards him. Of course we do. He towards him. Of course we do. He towards him. Of course we do. He murdered our children murdered our children murdered our children >> and he is still one of us. And how will >> and he is still one of us. And how will >> and he is still one of us. And how will it corrupt us in our culture to indulge it corrupt us in our culture to indulge it corrupt us in our culture to indulge those maximum impulses? So, we want to those maximum impulses? So, we want to those maximum impulses? So, we want to keep our society safe, but we're keep our society safe, but we're keep our society safe, but we're recognizing that he's still one of us. recognizing that he's still one of us. recognizing that he's still one of us. He's still Norwegian. He's still part of He's still Norwegian. He's still part of He's still Norwegian. He's still part of our society. And from an American our society. And from an American our society. And from an American perspective, it was wild like reading perspective, it was wild like reading perspective, it was wild like reading the this trial transcript because it was the this trial transcript because it was the this trial transcript because it was a way of a way of a way of feeling that retribution feeling that retribution feeling that retribution but not leading entirely with it and but not leading entirely with it and but not leading entirely with it and also recognizing also recognizing also recognizing the inherent humanity of this person the inherent humanity of this person the inherent humanity of this person who's part of their society. who's part of their society. who's part of their society. >> Do you think somebody that shot 60 kids >> Do you think somebody that shot 60 kids >> Do you think somebody that shot 60 kids has that much humanity? has that much humanity? has that much humanity? >> I think we all have that humanity. I >> I think we all have that humanity. I >> I think we all have that humanity. I mean, I think that's what it comes down mean, I think that's what it comes down mean, I think that's what it comes down to. I think that every single person, to. I think that every single person, to. I think that every single person, even when they do horrible things, even when they do horrible things, even when they do horrible things, it's still human. And and also that even it's still human. And and also that even it's still human. And and also that even if they don't, that me treating them if they don't, that me treating them if they don't, that me treating them like they don't does something to my like they don't does something to my like they don't does something to my humanity. humanity. humanity. >> That seems to be two different >> That seems to be two different >> That seems to be two different arguments. Um, one, they're related. arguments. Um, one, they're related. arguments. Um, one, they're related. >> Yeah, of course. Um, I'm trying to >> Yeah, of course. Um, I'm trying to >> Yeah, of course. Um, I'm trying to separate them out. I mean, yeah, I was separate them out. I mean, yeah, I was separate them out. I mean, yeah, I was going to try I was about to say going to try I was about to say going to try I was about to say something before that my ability to flip something before that my ability to flip something before that my ability to flip empathy into pleasure at a defector's empathy into pleasure at a defector's empathy into pleasure at a defector's pain pain pain pathway is defunct. I always seem to on pathway is defunct. I always seem to on pathway is defunct. I always seem to on the side of I'm so sorry for that the side of I'm so sorry for that the side of I'm so sorry for that person. You know, person. You know, person. You know, always, always, always. you've managed always, always, always. you've managed always, always, always. you've managed to find uh an example where not just one to find uh an example where not just one to find uh an example where not just one but it tends to be my threshold for it but it tends to be my threshold for it but it tends to be my threshold for it tends to be a bit higher. tends to be a bit higher. tends to be a bit higher. >> So I'm thinking about this person that >> So I'm thinking about this person that >> So I'm thinking about this person that shot shot shot >> 60 kids the residual amount of humanity in that the residual amount of humanity in that person seems to be very low for me in person seems to be very low for me in person seems to be very low for me in how I would see them. how I would see them. how I would see them. That to me seems to be the kind of thing That to me seems to be the kind of thing That to me seems to be the kind of thing even if you were to say what does this even if you were to say what does this even if you were to say what does this do for society outside of it that is do for society outside of it that is do for society outside of it that is such a heinous crime that I'd say it it such a heinous crime that I'd say it it such a heinous crime that I'd say it it it is so far beyond it is so far beyond it is so far beyond even the normality of abnormal crime even the normality of abnormal crime even the normality of abnormal crime that that should be a you don't get to that that should be a you don't get to that that should be a you don't get to come out again and that would be a come out again and that would be a come out again and that would be a pro-social as far as I can see that pro-social as far as I can see that pro-social as far as I can see that would be a pro-social thing to do first would be a pro-social thing to do first would be a pro-social thing to do first off as a hey we have a limit Here in off as a hey we have a limit Here in off as a hey we have a limit Here in Sweden, Sweden, Sweden, >> Norway. >> Norway. >> Norway. >> Norway. Here in Norway, we have a limit. >> Norway. Here in Norway, we have a limit. >> Norway. Here in Norway, we have a limit. We may be very loving and a fun accent We may be very loving and a fun accent We may be very loving and a fun accent like a typewriter covered in foil kick like a typewriter covered in foil kick like a typewriter covered in foil kick down stairs, but down stairs, but down stairs, but this person has gone beyond the limit. this person has gone beyond the limit. this person has gone beyond the limit. Uh therefore, other people shouldn't. Uh therefore, other people shouldn't. Uh therefore, other people shouldn't. So, I guess um So, I guess um So, I guess um >> yeah, I like >> yeah, I like >> yeah, I like >> warning them warning them off. But the >> warning them warning them off. But the >> warning them warning them off. But the other one being like the that is such an other one being like the that is such an other one being like the that is such an an extreme crime. an extreme crime. an extreme crime. >> Yeah. the likelihood of rep even if even >> Yeah. the likelihood of rep even if even >> Yeah. the likelihood of rep even if even if his desire to murder children drops if his desire to murder children drops if his desire to murder children drops by one per year over the next six by one per year over the next six by one per year over the next six decades he still wants to murder a child decades he still wants to murder a child decades he still wants to murder a child like that I'm aware that's not the way like that I'm aware that's not the way like that I'm aware that's not the way that like a fall off the murder that like a fall off the murder that like a fall off the murder [laughter] murder desire [laughter] murder desire [laughter] murder desire >> I got this weird like like line graph in >> I got this weird like like line graph in >> I got this weird like like line graph in my head of course but it's like murder my head of course but it's like murder my head of course but it's like murder desire inertia or whatever the [ __ ] but desire inertia or whatever the [ __ ] but desire inertia or whatever the [ __ ] but >> to me that seems weak that seems wimpy >> to me that seems weak that seems wimpy >> to me that seems weak that seems wimpy and I don't think I don't think that and I don't think I don't think that and I don't think I don't think that that is a sufficient deterrent to others that is a sufficient deterrent to others that is a sufficient deterrent to others and I also don't think it is a uh and I also don't think it is a uh and I also don't think it is a uh sufficient amount of time to basically sufficient amount of time to basically sufficient amount of time to basically quarantine this person. quarantine this person. quarantine this person. >> So there's so many different threads in >> So there's so many different threads in >> So there's so many different threads in your argument and I I want to pull them your argument and I I want to pull them your argument and I I want to pull them apart because I I think they're each apart because I I think they're each apart because I I think they're each interesting and and in some ways it's interesting and and in some ways it's interesting and and in some ways it's like you just touched on what are why do like you just touched on what are why do like you just touched on what are why do we incarcerate people? Like why do we we incarcerate people? Like why do we we incarcerate people? Like why do we have a criminal legal system? Like what have a criminal legal system? Like what have a criminal legal system? Like what is the purpose of it, right? and one is is the purpose of it, right? and one is is the purpose of it, right? and one is just containment, just protecting the just containment, just protecting the just containment, just protecting the other people from this person, right? Um other people from this person, right? Um other people from this person, right? Um I do believe in Norway it's possible I do believe in Norway it's possible I do believe in Norway it's possible that if at the end of the sentence he's that if at the end of the sentence he's that if at the end of the sentence he's judged to still be a risk to others, judged to still be a risk to others, judged to still be a risk to others, then he could be that sentence could be then he could be that sentence could be then he could be that sentence could be lengthened for the sake of other people. lengthened for the sake of other people. lengthened for the sake of other people. >> Um one is >> Um one is >> Um one is um some sort of expression of um some sort of expression of um some sort of expression of retribution like I don't care if you retribution like I don't care if you retribution like I don't care if you could be better in the future. I don't could be better in the future. I don't could be better in the future. I don't care if you had a you're going to have a care if you had a you're going to have a care if you had a you're going to have a >> you lost that privilege. >> you lost that privilege. >> you lost that privilege. >> You've lost the privilege. I >> You've lost the privilege. I >> You've lost the privilege. I >> you did something that's beyond the pale >> you did something that's beyond the pale >> you did something that's beyond the pale and now I you deserve you deserve to not and now I you deserve you deserve to not and now I you deserve you deserve to not live. You deserve to suffer. You deserve live. You deserve to suffer. You deserve live. You deserve to suffer. You deserve like whatever that is. And then one of like whatever that is. And then one of like whatever that is. And then one of them is rehabilitation. So given that them is rehabilitation. So given that them is rehabilitation. So given that someone has done this, someone has done this, someone has done this, is there some intervention by the state, is there some intervention by the state, is there some intervention by the state, by other people that can prevent it from by other people that can prevent it from by other people that can prevent it from happening again? Repair essentially happening again? Repair essentially happening again? Repair essentially repair this person and repair their repair this person and repair their repair this person and repair their relationship to the community um such relationship to the community um such relationship to the community um such that they don't commit any more violent that they don't commit any more violent that they don't commit any more violent crimes. Um, and we don't stick with like crimes. Um, and we don't stick with like crimes. Um, and we don't stick with like we don't have one lane. Like your answer we don't have one lane. Like your answer we don't have one lane. Like your answer combined all of those things where combined all of those things where combined all of those things where you're like, but h like what if he's you're like, but h like what if he's you're like, but h like what if he's still a danger and also he did such a still a danger and also he did such a still a danger and also he did such a horrible thing maybe it doesn't matter horrible thing maybe it doesn't matter horrible thing maybe it doesn't matter if he's a danger and also if he if this if he's a danger and also if he if this if he's a danger and also if he if this is such a long rooted problem, how could is such a long rooted problem, how could is such a long rooted problem, how could he ever hope to change? he ever hope to change? he ever hope to change? >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Um, and I'm really interested by the >> Um, and I'm really interested by the >> Um, and I'm really interested by the word weak. Like what is it? It's weak by word weak. Like what is it? It's weak by word weak. Like what is it? It's weak by the states. It's weak by the juror. Like the states. It's weak by the juror. Like the states. It's weak by the juror. Like what what is the is it reflects weak what what is the is it reflects weak what what is the is it reflects weak social bonds? Like what is what is being social bonds? Like what is what is being social bonds? Like what is what is being weak where? weak where? weak where? Like that's an interesting Like that's an interesting Like that's an interesting >> uh >> uh >> uh it is it is it is insufficient insufficient insufficient uh when held up. You asked me earlier on uh when held up. You asked me earlier on uh when held up. You asked me earlier on this person stabbed one guy with a box this person stabbed one guy with a box this person stabbed one guy with a box and you're like yeah I gave him 20 and you're like yeah I gave him 20 and you're like yeah I gave him 20 years. at homeboy managed to do it to 60 years. at homeboy managed to do it to 60 years. at homeboy managed to do it to 60 children. children. children. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Um have you considered >> Um have you considered >> Um have you considered the role of the role of the role of 120 parents needing to feel vindicated? 120 parents needing to feel vindicated? 120 parents needing to feel vindicated? >> Yeah. I mean I think there's and this >> Yeah. I mean I think there's and this >> Yeah. I mean I think there's and this idea of vindication and also this sense idea of vindication and also this sense idea of vindication and also this sense of um I I guess I should say like I was of um I I guess I should say like I was of um I I guess I should say like I was very moved by this. I'm not saying that very moved by this. I'm not saying that very moved by this. I'm not saying that you're defending the guy just getting you're defending the guy just getting you're defending the guy just getting doing the thing or getting the 20 years. doing the thing or getting the 20 years. doing the thing or getting the 20 years. >> And I do think it speaks to a very >> And I do think it speaks to a very >> And I do think it speaks to a very different different different way of thinking of the role and function way of thinking of the role and function way of thinking of the role and function of punishment in a society because it is of punishment in a society because it is of punishment in a society because it is so radically different from what we so radically different from what we so radically different from what we would do in the United States. But I would do in the United States. But I would do in the United States. But I just want to echo like I'm a mother. I just want to echo like I'm a mother. I just want to echo like I'm a mother. I have three kids. Like if I were one of have three kids. Like if I were one of have three kids. Like if I were one of those parents, would I be able to cooly those parents, would I be able to cooly those parents, would I be able to cooly sit here and talk to you about not sit here and talk to you about not sit here and talk to you about not letting their retributive instinct lead? letting their retributive instinct lead? letting their retributive instinct lead? >> I'm not sure. Like the only time I've >> I'm not sure. Like the only time I've >> I'm not sure. Like the only time I've ever like blacked out in anger was when ever like blacked out in anger was when ever like blacked out in anger was when someone hurt one of my children. Like I someone hurt one of my children. Like I someone hurt one of my children. Like I think there's a really basic thing in think there's a really basic thing in think there's a really basic thing in there. And I think the other thing that there. And I think the other thing that there. And I think the other thing that you're getting at is you're getting at is you're getting at is >> um we signal the value of people >> um we signal the value of people >> um we signal the value of people by how much we're willing to punish by how much we're willing to punish by how much we're willing to punish others who've hurt them. Mhm. others who've hurt them. Mhm. others who've hurt them. Mhm. >> So you know when we say like one of the >> So you know when we say like one of the >> So you know when we say like one of the one of the things that made that that um one of the things that made that that um one of the things that made that that um uh uh uh denotes or it comes along with the denotes or it comes along with the denotes or it comes along with the status of being an enslaved person in a status of being an enslaved person in a status of being an enslaved person in a culture is that their masters get to culture is that their masters get to culture is that their masters get to hurt them and no one there's no hurt them and no one there's no hurt them and no one there's no punishment for that. Right. So, so I I punishment for that. Right. So, so I I punishment for that. Right. So, so I I think one of the things you're picking think one of the things you're picking think one of the things you're picking up on when you say like what about those up on when you say like what about those up on when you say like what about those parents parents parents >> is >> is >> is does it signal something about the value does it signal something about the value does it signal something about the value of those children or the value of those of those children or the value of those of those children or the value of those children to their parents to their children to their parents to their children to their parents to their society to the collective society to the collective society to the collective if someone is not punished for hurting if someone is not punished for hurting if someone is not punished for hurting them? Um, a lot of times when we someone them? Um, a lot of times when we someone them? Um, a lot of times when we someone does something outrageous, not not even does something outrageous, not not even does something outrageous, not not even outrageous as mass murder, we say, outrageous as mass murder, we say, outrageous as mass murder, we say, "Who do you think you are?" And I think "Who do you think you are?" And I think "Who do you think you are?" And I think that's saying, "Who do you think I am that's saying, "Who do you think I am that's saying, "Who do you think I am that you think you can get away with that you think you can get away with that you think you can get away with treating me like this?" So, we assert treating me like this?" So, we assert treating me like this?" So, we assert the value of people. Correct. the value of people. Correct. the value of people. Correct. >> That's part of the social signal of >> That's part of the social signal of >> That's part of the social signal of punishment. And I think that's why it punishment. And I think that's why it punishment. And I think that's why it wrinkles as and I don't think there is wrinkles as and I don't think there is wrinkles as and I don't think there is any I don't think there's any response any I don't think there's any response any I don't think there's any response to harm especially harm at that level to harm especially harm at that level to harm especially harm at that level where there isn't going to be some where there isn't going to be some where there isn't going to be some remainder that feels unsatisfying remainder that feels unsatisfying remainder that feels unsatisfying either we're going to either we're going to either we're going to >> kill burn him and kill him string him up >> kill burn him and kill him string him up >> kill burn him and kill him string him up and burn him and kill him. and burn him and kill him. and burn him and kill him. >> What does that do to us, right? Like I >> What does that do to us, right? Like I >> What does that do to us, right? Like I think that really I think what does that think that really I think what does that think that really I think what does that do to our do to our do to our society's society's society's again honoring of the inherent value of again honoring of the inherent value of again honoring of the inherent value of every human if we are so easy for anyone every human if we are so easy for anyone every human if we are so easy for anyone to say string them up you know good to say string them up you know good to say string them up you know good riddance like I there there is a really riddance like I there there is a really riddance like I there there is a really the our response to our most antisocial the our response to our most antisocial the our response to our most antisocial people can bring out the most callous people can bring out the most callous people can bring out the most callous and and unemotional and like um and and unemotional and like um and and unemotional and like um antisocial instincts of ourselves where antisocial instincts of ourselves where antisocial instincts of ourselves where you would never and under any sort of you would never and under any sort of you would never and under any sort of other circumstances be like let them die other circumstances be like let them die other circumstances be like let them die >> but like in this case it comes so easily >> but like in this case it comes so easily >> but like in this case it comes so easily to us. Um, so again, I don't think to us. Um, so again, I don't think to us. Um, so again, I don't think there's a per I don't think there is a there's a per I don't think there is a there's a per I don't think there is a perfect solution to the the problem of perfect solution to the the problem of perfect solution to the the problem of harm, but I do think by looking to other harm, but I do think by looking to other harm, but I do think by looking to other societies, societies, societies, we can begin to think, we can begin to think, we can begin to think, well, what are we overemphasizing in our well, what are we overemphasizing in our well, what are we overemphasizing in our in our approach to this, which is very in our approach to this, which is very in our approach to this, which is very um people deserve to suffer and our job um people deserve to suffer and our job um people deserve to suffer and our job is just to figure out how much they is just to figure out how much they is just to figure out how much they deserve to suffer. Well, definitely the deserve to suffer. Well, definitely the deserve to suffer. Well, definitely the retribution for something like addiction retribution for something like addiction retribution for something like addiction or psychopathy feels very different to or psychopathy feels very different to or psychopathy feels very different to antisocial disorder retribution, but antisocial disorder retribution, but antisocial disorder retribution, but really that's only because the first two really that's only because the first two really that's only because the first two are more pathized and we have names for are more pathized and we have names for are more pathized and we have names for them. them. them. >> But if we start to sort of take the >> But if we start to sort of take the >> But if we start to sort of take the behavioral genetics red pill, then we behavioral genetics red pill, then we behavioral genetics red pill, then we go, well, go, well, go, well, >> take the pill, behavioral genetics pill. >> take the pill, behavioral genetics pill. >> take the pill, behavioral genetics pill. Well, you know, you you you start to Well, you know, you you you start to Well, you know, you you you start to think think think that person that's an addict might not that person that's an addict might not that person that's an addict might not have had that much of a predisposition have had that much of a predisposition have had that much of a predisposition toward it and might actually have some toward it and might actually have some toward it and might actually have some pretty strong genetic uh influences pretty strong genetic uh influences pretty strong genetic uh influences toward willpower and they chose to do toward willpower and they chose to do toward willpower and they chose to do this thing and they chose to or that this thing and they chose to or that this thing and they chose to or that psychopath who's acting in this way is psychopath who's acting in this way is psychopath who's acting in this way is sort of choosing to be callous. It's not sort of choosing to be callous. It's not sort of choosing to be callous. It's not so much outside of their [sighs] so much outside of their [sighs] so much outside of their [sighs] >> you know what I mean? You can see where >> you know what I mean? You can see where >> you know what I mean? You can see where I'm talking here. Whereas the person I'm talking here. Whereas the person I'm talking here. Whereas the person who's antisocial disorder could have who's antisocial disorder could have who's antisocial disorder could have been fighting against all of the tides been fighting against all of the tides been fighting against all of the tides of their genetic predisposition and the of their genetic predisposition and the of their genetic predisposition and the epigenetic impact and the upbringing epigenetic impact and the upbringing epigenetic impact and the upbringing that they had and so on and so forth. Um that they had and so on and so forth. Um that they had and so on and so forth. Um we don't because we don't have this we don't because we don't have this we don't because we don't have this global perspective. I can't see through global perspective. I can't see through global perspective. I can't see through you and see sort of what contributes you and see sort of what contributes you and see sort of what contributes what is left inside. what is left inside. what is left inside. >> I mean I think this is where there there >> I mean I think this is where there there >> I mean I think this is where there there will always be a gap between science will always be a gap between science will always be a gap between science which is about averages and trends and which is about averages and trends and which is about averages and trends and statistical patterns. statistical patterns. statistical patterns. and biography which is this is the and biography which is this is the and biography which is this is the individual person and I know exactly how individual person and I know exactly how individual person and I know exactly how these combined and this individual these combined and this individual these combined and this individual person and and I can see what could have person and and I can see what could have person and and I can see what could have gone differently. I began my new book gone differently. I began my new book gone differently. I began my new book well the first real first full chapter well the first real first full chapter well the first real first full chapter of the book I began with this letter of the book I began with this letter of the book I began with this letter that I got from someone in prison in that I got from someone in prison in that I got from someone in prison in Texas and he's been there for his whole Texas and he's been there for his whole Texas and he's been there for his whole adult life. He's been there since he was adult life. He's been there since he was adult life. He's been there since he was 16 16 16 and he um committed a sexually violent and he um committed a sexually violent and he um committed a sexually violent crime um kidnapping a woman at knife crime um kidnapping a woman at knife crime um kidnapping a woman at knife point. An awful thing I think when he point. An awful thing I think when he point. An awful thing I think when he was 15 since he's been in prison since was 15 since he's been in prison since was 15 since he's been in prison since he was 16. And then he's been, you know, he was 16. And then he's been, you know, he was 16. And then he's been, you know, in an adult in an adult in an adult um kind of notorious prison in Texas um kind of notorious prison in Texas um kind of notorious prison in Texas since then. since then. since then. and he wrote me this letter and he said, and he wrote me this letter and he said, and he wrote me this letter and he said, um, there was an article in Texas um, there was an article in Texas um, there was an article in Texas Monthly magazine about my lab. And so he Monthly magazine about my lab. And so he Monthly magazine about my lab. And so he said, I read about you in Texas Monthly said, I read about you in Texas Monthly said, I read about you in Texas Monthly and I know some people, you know, don't and I know some people, you know, don't and I know some people, you know, don't believe in behavioral genetics, but I believe in behavioral genetics, but I believe in behavioral genetics, but I do. I think the apple doesn't fall far do. I think the apple doesn't fall far do. I think the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. from the tree. from the tree. >> The idea of not believing in behavioral >> The idea of not believing in behavioral >> The idea of not believing in behavioral genetics is hilarious, but please go on. genetics is hilarious, but please go on. genetics is hilarious, but please go on. Um, and then he wrote me this series of Um, and then he wrote me this series of Um, and then he wrote me this series of questions and one of them was, "What do questions and one of them was, "What do questions and one of them was, "What do you think makes a child go bad, nature you think makes a child go bad, nature you think makes a child go bad, nature or nurture?" or nurture?" or nurture?" And And And it was I mean it was such one like most it was I mean it was such one like most it was I mean it was such one like most of the mail 99% of the mail I get in my of the mail 99% of the mail I get in my of the mail 99% of the mail I get in my university mailbox is like university mailbox is like university mailbox is like academic journals. So this is this was academic journals. So this is this was academic journals. So this is this was very surprising to get this letter and very surprising to get this letter and very surprising to get this letter and then I got in I opened it and um he had then I got in I opened it and um he had then I got in I opened it and um he had cut out cartoons from other magazines cut out cartoons from other magazines cut out cartoons from other magazines and taped them to the letter and one of and taped them to the letter and one of and taped them to the letter and one of them was this white tiger on a them was this white tiger on a them was this white tiger on a psychoanalyst couch and the caption goes psychoanalyst couch and the caption goes psychoanalyst couch and the caption goes and they train me to perform but when I and they train me to perform but when I and they train me to perform but when I do what I'm really good at they go do what I'm really good at they go do what I'm really good at they go ballistic. ballistic. ballistic. >> Oh that's great. which is funny and dark >> Oh that's great. which is funny and dark >> Oh that's great. which is funny and dark and also like oh this is coming from and also like oh this is coming from and also like oh this is coming from someone who's in jail for a sexually someone who's in jail for a sexually someone who's in jail for a sexually violent crime like that a new shimmer on violent crime like that a new shimmer on violent crime like that a new shimmer on that yeah that yeah that yeah >> that cartoon >> that cartoon >> that cartoon >> and you know he's asking he was asking >> and you know he's asking he was asking >> and you know he's asking he was asking me the same question that you're asking me the same question that you're asking me the same question that you're asking me which I think we we are me which I think we we are me which I think we we are >> which I don't think has an answer >> which I don't think has an answer >> which I don't think has an answer because I think is part of the tension because I think is part of the tension because I think is part of the tension of being a modern human um of being a modern human um of being a modern human um why did I do this thing why do you as a why did I do this thing why do you as a why did I do this thing why do you as a scientist think I did this thing? And scientist think I did this thing? And scientist think I did this thing? And when I was reflecting on it, it's like, when I was reflecting on it, it's like, when I was reflecting on it, it's like, well, I can give you a scientific well, I can give you a scientific well, I can give you a scientific answer. Like, on average, people who are answer. Like, on average, people who are answer. Like, on average, people who are um exposed to lead and abused as um exposed to lead and abused as um exposed to lead and abused as children and had labor and delivery children and had labor and delivery children and had labor and delivery complications and had a certain set of complications and had a certain set of complications and had a certain set of genetic variants, genetic variants, genetic variants, >> these things combined to make you more >> these things combined to make you more >> these things combined to make you more likely to commit a violent crime. Um, likely to commit a violent crime. Um, likely to commit a violent crime. Um, but is that really why he's writing me? but is that really why he's writing me? but is that really why he's writing me? Like it's is he won a science lesson or Like it's is he won a science lesson or Like it's is he won a science lesson or is he like I think when people ask why is he like I think when people ask why is he like I think when people ask why they're really asking was it all my they're really asking was it all my they're really asking was it all my fault? fault? fault? >> Yep. Am I >> Yep. Am I >> Yep. Am I >> do I have hope for change? Am I okay? >> do I have hope for change? Am I okay? >> do I have hope for change? Am I okay? They're looking for a different story They're looking for a different story They're looking for a different story about themselves. about themselves. about themselves. And this is someone who on paper might And this is someone who on paper might And this is someone who on paper might seem like seem like seem like you you didn't even make it to 15 years you you didn't even make it to 15 years you you didn't even make it to 15 years old without raping a woman. Like why old without raping a woman. Like why old without raping a woman. Like why should we? But there's some part of him should we? But there's some part of him should we? But there's some part of him that's asking why and there's some parts that's asking why and there's some parts that's asking why and there's some parts of him that wants information and that of him that wants information and that of him that wants information and that to me speaks to something very universal to me speaks to something very universal to me speaks to something very universal and human. I think it is I think it is a and human. I think it is I think it is a and human. I think it is I think it is a a really a really a really understandable thing to have done understandable thing to have done understandable thing to have done something and you're like why did I do something and you're like why did I do something and you're like why did I do that? Am I a stranger to myself? Does that? Am I a stranger to myself? Does that? Am I a stranger to myself? Does this mean that it's all my fault? Could this mean that it's all my fault? Could this mean that it's all my fault? Could I have done differently? Will I do I have done differently? Will I do I have done differently? Will I do differently in the future? Isn't it differently in the future? Isn't it differently in the future? Isn't it interesting that we don't necessarily interesting that we don't necessarily interesting that we don't necessarily ask ourselves that with the same level ask ourselves that with the same level ask ourselves that with the same level of like sanguin reflection when we do of like sanguin reflection when we do of like sanguin reflection when we do something that's outside our positive something that's outside our positive something that's outside our positive bound of what we thought we were able to bound of what we thought we were able to bound of what we thought we were able to do. Yeah. do. Yeah. do. Yeah. >> We don't uh we we flatter ourselves with >> We don't uh we we flatter ourselves with >> We don't uh we we flatter ourselves with >> oh I I scored that goal. I mean you know >> oh I I scored that goal. I mean you know >> oh I I scored that goal. I mean you know like yeah it takes a very particular like yeah it takes a very particular like yeah it takes a very particular sort of person to go I don't know where sort of person to go I don't know where sort of person to go I don't know where that came I don't know where that skill that came I don't know where that skill that came I don't know where that skill came. I don't know where that romantic came. I don't know where that romantic came. I don't know where that romantic gesture for Valentine's Day came from. I gesture for Valentine's Day came from. I gesture for Valentine's Day came from. I don't know where that level of love and don't know where that level of love and don't know where that level of love and depth and reflection came from. depth and reflection came from. depth and reflection came from. >> That's interesting. I feel like with >> That's interesting. I feel like with >> That's interesting. I feel like with writing, I definitely have that writing, I definitely have that writing, I definitely have that experience where experience where experience where >> [ __ ] where did the sentence come from? >> [ __ ] where did the sentence come from? >> [ __ ] where did the sentence come from? Better than my upper bound. Better than my upper bound. Better than my upper bound. >> I'll look back on writing that I've done >> I'll look back on writing that I've done >> I'll look back on writing that I've done in the past and I'm like, that's not in the past and I'm like, that's not in the past and I'm like, that's not bad. And I have no conscious memory of bad. And I have no conscious memory of bad. And I have no conscious memory of writing it and you know that idea of writing it and you know that idea of writing it and you know that idea of genius is not something about you, but a genius is not something about you, but a genius is not something about you, but a genius is genius is genius is >> some sort of, you know, inspiration in >> some sort of, you know, inspiration in >> some sort of, you know, inspiration in the ether that can you moves through the ether that can you moves through the ether that can you moves through you. I find that a really I that's you. I find that a really I that's you. I find that a really I that's whenever I've seen my work where I'm whenever I've seen my work where I'm whenever I've seen my work where I'm like that's not terrible that I I I like that's not terrible that I I I like that's not terrible that I I I actually am less likely to think of it actually am less likely to think of it actually am less likely to think of it as mine. as mine. as mine. >> What >> What >> What what have you learned about the what have you learned about the what have you learned about the epigenetic inheritance stuff? epigenetic inheritance stuff? epigenetic inheritance stuff? >> Yeah. I mean so the idea of epigenetic >> Yeah. I mean so the idea of epigenetic >> Yeah. I mean so the idea of epigenetic inheritance so the idea of so your inheritance so the idea of so your inheritance so the idea of so your genome is your DNA your DNA sequence genome is your DNA your DNA sequence genome is your DNA your DNA sequence and then your epiggenome which is and and then your epiggenome which is and and then your epiggenome which is and your DNA is the same in every cell in your DNA is the same in every cell in your DNA is the same in every cell in your body and it's the the same every your body and it's the the same every your body and it's the the same every day of your life whereas your epigenome day of your life whereas your epigenome day of your life whereas your epigenome is everything on top of your genome that is everything on top of your genome that is everything on top of your genome that affects how the genome is read in a cell affects how the genome is read in a cell affects how the genome is read in a cell your epiggenome is why your neurons are your epiggenome is why your neurons are your epiggenome is why your neurons are different than your liver cells and why different than your liver cells and why different than your liver cells and why you look different than you did when you you look different than you did when you you look different than you did when you Number nine, you have the same DNA, but Number nine, you have the same DNA, but Number nine, you have the same DNA, but you have a different body now. And you have a different body now. And you have a different body now. And that's because of these epigenetic that's because of these epigenetic that's because of these epigenetic changes. changes. changes. So epigenetic inheritance is this idea So epigenetic inheritance is this idea So epigenetic inheritance is this idea that not just the DNA sequence, but that not just the DNA sequence, but that not just the DNA sequence, but something about the epigenetic marks something about the epigenetic marks something about the epigenetic marks that affect how the gene is read could that affect how the gene is read could that affect how the gene is read could be transmitted from parent to offspring. be transmitted from parent to offspring. be transmitted from parent to offspring. That is a really difficult and That is a really difficult and That is a really difficult and controversial area of research. Like controversial area of research. Like controversial area of research. Like some biologists think that humans do not some biologists think that humans do not some biologists think that humans do not inherit the epiggenome. inherit the epiggenome. inherit the epiggenome. What egg and sperm cells do is they What egg and sperm cells do is they What egg and sperm cells do is they strip out, you know, most of the strip out, you know, most of the strip out, you know, most of the epigenetic mark so that they aren't epigenetic mark so that they aren't epigenetic mark so that they aren't inherited. inherited. inherited. >> There is some animal models and mice >> There is some animal models and mice >> There is some animal models and mice that that that >> did not just see one about exercise >> did not just see one about exercise >> did not just see one about exercise >> probably in mice maybe >> probably in mice maybe >> probably in mice maybe >> the the children of mice that had >> the the children of mice that had >> the the children of mice that had exercised more were Yeah. So in humans, exercised more were Yeah. So in humans, exercised more were Yeah. So in humans, research on epigenetic inheritance is research on epigenetic inheritance is research on epigenetic inheritance is really hard to do. You multiple really hard to do. You multiple really hard to do. You multiple generations of data. The confounding is generations of data. The confounding is generations of data. The confounding is terrible. And I um I'm okay with social terrible. And I um I'm okay with social terrible. And I um I'm okay with social and political controversies, but even I and political controversies, but even I and political controversies, but even I have not waited into epigenetic have not waited into epigenetic have not waited into epigenetic inheritance. I do do stuff on inheritance. I do do stuff on inheritance. I do do stuff on epigenetics within the lifespan of a epigenetics within the lifespan of a epigenetics within the lifespan of a child. Okay. Right. So like how does child. Okay. Right. So like how does child. Okay. Right. So like how does your environment your environment your environment >> what's what's real and what's [ __ ] >> what's what's real and what's [ __ ] >> what's what's real and what's [ __ ] about epigenetics? about epigenetics? about epigenetics? >> Oh gosh. I mean, I think there's these >> Oh gosh. I mean, I think there's these >> Oh gosh. I mean, I think there's these cultural memes about like um all of cultural memes about like um all of cultural memes about like um all of trauma is epigenetically inherited or trauma is epigenetically inherited or trauma is epigenetically inherited or that you can't believe anything from that you can't believe anything from that you can't believe anything from behavior genetics because it's all behavior genetics because it's all behavior genetics because it's all actually epigenetics. actually epigenetics. actually epigenetics. I think those are vast I think those are vast I think those are vast oversimplifications. oversimplifications. oversimplifications. Um I think we understand. I gave a talk Um I think we understand. I gave a talk Um I think we understand. I gave a talk for a group of students on campus last for a group of students on campus last for a group of students on campus last week and they were like well how do you week and they were like well how do you week and they were like well how do you you know I'm not really that interested you know I'm not really that interested you know I'm not really that interested in genes because of everything we know in genes because of everything we know in genes because of everything we know about epigenetics and I was like what is about epigenetics and I was like what is about epigenetics and I was like what is what do we know about epigenetics like what do we know about epigenetics like what do we know about epigenetics like what exactly are you thinking about this what exactly are you thinking about this what exactly are you thinking about this is actually a very new area of research is actually a very new area of research is actually a very new area of research humans they had no answer to that humans they had no answer to that humans they had no answer to that question question question >> great statement >> great statement >> great statement >> um so I mean I'm fascinated I The sort >> um so I mean I'm fascinated I The sort >> um so I mean I'm fascinated I The sort of epigenetics that I study is called of epigenetics that I study is called of epigenetics that I study is called DNA methylation. Um, so methylation is DNA methylation. Um, so methylation is DNA methylation. Um, so methylation is the addition of a methyl group, which is the addition of a methyl group, which is the addition of a methyl group, which is kind of like a chemical tag that binds kind of like a chemical tag that binds kind of like a chemical tag that binds to the DNA sequence at particular spots to the DNA sequence at particular spots to the DNA sequence at particular spots and changes how and changes how and changes how um DNA is expressed. um DNA is expressed. um DNA is expressed. And I'm really interested in the the DNA And I'm really interested in the the DNA And I'm really interested in the the DNA methylation is particularly in children methylation is particularly in children methylation is particularly in children because I'm interested in the idea that because I'm interested in the idea that because I'm interested in the idea that we can look at how, we can look at how, we can look at how, you know, poverty or stress or trauma or you know, poverty or stress or trauma or you know, poverty or stress or trauma or insults to health that are ultimately insults to health that are ultimately insults to health that are ultimately going to affect your, you know, your going to affect your, you know, your going to affect your, you know, your aging 60 years later. aging 60 years later. aging 60 years later. >> How are they getting under the skin in >> How are they getting under the skin in >> How are they getting under the skin in early life early life early life long before we can actually see any of long before we can actually see any of long before we can actually see any of these health problems? Like we know that these health problems? Like we know that these health problems? Like we know that children who are for instance being children who are for instance being children who are for instance being raised in poverty are likely to die raised in poverty are likely to die raised in poverty are likely to die sooner. It's very hard to see the health sooner. It's very hard to see the health sooner. It's very hard to see the health consequences of poverty when children consequences of poverty when children consequences of poverty when children are four because four-year-olds are are four because four-year-olds are are four because four-year-olds are healthy. Like four-year-olds all look healthy. Like four-year-olds all look healthy. Like four-year-olds all look healthy. healthy. healthy. >> But is that not how do you know the >> But is that not how do you know the >> But is that not how do you know the difference between epigenetic impact and difference between epigenetic impact and difference between epigenetic impact and just during a period where you really just during a period where you really just during a period where you really needed to feed a body and an immune needed to feed a body and an immune needed to feed a body and an immune system, it didn't have the fuel to be system, it didn't have the fuel to be system, it didn't have the fuel to be able to do it. the epigenetic stuff able to do it. the epigenetic stuff able to do it. the epigenetic stuff feels to be a little bit more deep and feels to be a little bit more deep and feels to be a little bit more deep and long-lasting as opposed to this is a long-lasting as opposed to this is a long-lasting as opposed to this is a more transient important period where more transient important period where more transient important period where like if you just never went to the gym like if you just never went to the gym like if you just never went to the gym that well I'm smaller and weaker but I'm that well I'm smaller and weaker but I'm that well I'm smaller and weaker but I'm smaller and weaker because I didn't do smaller and weaker because I didn't do smaller and weaker because I didn't do the thing required to make me big and the thing required to make me big and the thing required to make me big and strong. strong. strong. >> Yeah. I mean I So that's you're right >> Yeah. I mean I So that's you're right >> Yeah. I mean I So that's you're right that like there's a phenotype of a child that like there's a phenotype of a child that like there's a phenotype of a child which is like what is their growth which is like what is their growth which is like what is their growth status? Are they overweight? Are they status? Are they overweight? Are they status? Are they overweight? Are they too short for their age? Do they have too short for their age? Do they have too short for their age? Do they have more infections than usual? And the more infections than usual? And the more infections than usual? And the epiggenome is getting at something epiggenome is getting at something epiggenome is getting at something that's like, you know, more at the level that's like, you know, more at the level that's like, you know, more at the level of the cellular machinery. of the cellular machinery. of the cellular machinery. >> And although it's controversial whether >> And although it's controversial whether >> And although it's controversial whether or not epigenetic marks can be or not epigenetic marks can be or not epigenetic marks can be transmitted from parent to child, we transmitted from parent to child, we transmitted from parent to child, we know that they're they are propagated know that they're they are propagated know that they're they are propagated across cell division. So part of how across cell division. So part of how across cell division. So part of how your epiggenome works now is because your epiggenome works now is because your epiggenome works now is because your epigenome was changed when you were your epigenome was changed when you were your epigenome was changed when you were five. And those epigenetic marks, even five. And those epigenetic marks, even five. And those epigenetic marks, even though you're you have different cells though you're you have different cells though you're you have different cells now because they've been replicating now because they've been replicating now because they've been replicating this whole time, those same epigenetic this whole time, those same epigenetic this whole time, those same epigenetic processes have been carried over. processes have been carried over. processes have been carried over. >> Yeah. I've heard self decision. >> Yeah. I've heard self decision. >> Yeah. I've heard self decision. >> I've heard something about that. This is >> I've heard something about that. This is >> I've heard something about that. This is probably getting into the realm of what probably getting into the realm of what probably getting into the realm of what one of your students tried to ask you one of your students tried to ask you one of your students tried to ask you last week. last week. last week. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh that when the epigenetic dial is >> Uh that when the epigenetic dial is >> Uh that when the epigenetic dial is turned up for a particular however turned up for a particular however turned up for a particular however something is being expressed, it is very something is being expressed, it is very something is being expressed, it is very difficult to turn that back down. Oh, I difficult to turn that back down. Oh, I difficult to turn that back down. Oh, I don't that's an interesting question. I don't that's an interesting question. I don't that's an interesting question. I don't know if that's true on a general don't know if that's true on a general don't know if that's true on a general level. Um, level. Um, level. Um, >> a kind of lock in of this thing >> a kind of lock in of this thing >> a kind of lock in of this thing happened, the expression is occurring at happened, the expression is occurring at happened, the expression is occurring at this particular level and that is now this particular level and that is now this particular level and that is now the level it's going to continue at. the level it's going to continue at. the level it's going to continue at. >> I think generally speaking, what I what >> I think generally speaking, what I what >> I think generally speaking, what I what I what I do think is a general pattern I what I do think is a general pattern I what I do think is a general pattern is that is that is that um it's just much harder to change your um it's just much harder to change your um it's just much harder to change your epiggenome in adulthood than it is in epiggenome in adulthood than it is in epiggenome in adulthood than it is in childhood. So if we look at measures of childhood. So if we look at measures of childhood. So if we look at measures of the epiggenome at 60, they're very the epiggenome at 60, they're very the epiggenome at 60, they're very correlated with where you were at 70. If correlated with where you were at 70. If correlated with where you were at 70. If you look at at 40, they're very you look at at 40, they're very you look at at 40, they're very correlated with you 50. That's not that correlated with you 50. That's not that correlated with you 50. That's not that doesn't mean that, you know, health doesn't mean that, you know, health doesn't mean that, you know, health interventions don't matter. Health interventions don't matter. Health interventions don't matter. Health interventions can definitely make a interventions can definitely make a interventions can definitely make a difference in middle age and in older difference in middle age and in older difference in middle age and in older adulthood. But where you see the most adulthood. But where you see the most adulthood. But where you see the most flux in what is the epigenome doing, flux in what is the epigenome doing, flux in what is the epigenome doing, what is behavior doing, what is body what is behavior doing, what is body what is behavior doing, what is body weight doing is in the first 10 years of weight doing is in the first 10 years of weight doing is in the first 10 years of life. I mean, and that's kind of across life. I mean, and that's kind of across life. I mean, and that's kind of across the board. like childhood is our period the board. like childhood is our period the board. like childhood is our period of peak plasticity and then of peak plasticity and then of peak plasticity and then >> including epigenetic plasticity >> including epigenetic plasticity >> including epigenetic plasticity >> including I think epigenetic plasticity >> including I think epigenetic plasticity >> including I think epigenetic plasticity >> that's cool that's a cool way to think >> that's cool that's a cool way to think >> that's cool that's a cool way to think about it what's some of the interesting about it what's some of the interesting about it what's some of the interesting studies around uh in uterero epigenetic studies around uh in uterero epigenetic studies around uh in uterero epigenetic changes because you know we do have some changes because you know we do have some changes because you know we do have some periods where for a brief amount of time periods where for a brief amount of time periods where for a brief amount of time every girl that is watching was inside every girl that is watching was inside every girl that is watching was inside of their grandmother. of their grandmother. of their grandmother. >> Yes. Isn't that fascinating? >> Yes. Isn't that fascinating? >> Yes. Isn't that fascinating? >> So cool. And the, you know, the >> So cool. And the, you know, the >> So cool. And the, you know, the canonical studies on this are ones where canonical studies on this are ones where canonical studies on this are ones where you've had like a, in humans at least you've had like a, in humans at least you've had like a, in humans at least are where you've had a very serious are where you've had a very serious are where you've had a very serious um insult or deprivation at a particular um insult or deprivation at a particular um insult or deprivation at a particular point in pregnancy. So for instance, point in pregnancy. So for instance, point in pregnancy. So for instance, when the Nazis blockaded Holland, there when the Nazis blockaded Holland, there when the Nazis blockaded Holland, there was this very serious famine in Holland. was this very serious famine in Holland. was this very serious famine in Holland. Um but it affected different regions of Um but it affected different regions of Um but it affected different regions of the country differently and also people the country differently and also people the country differently and also people just happened to be pregnant for just happened to be pregnant for just happened to be pregnant for different parts of their pregnancies different parts of their pregnancies different parts of their pregnancies >> during a little split test. What >> during a little split test. What >> during a little split test. What >> you had a little split test. Some were >> you had a little split test. Some were >> you had a little split test. Some were first trimester, some were second, some first trimester, some were second, some first trimester, some were second, some were third. were third. were third. >> Yes. And then some were just across the >> Yes. And then some were just across the >> Yes. And then some were just across the border, but they were getting food from border, but they were getting food from border, but they were getting food from somewhere else. And so they were just somewhere else. And so they were just somewhere else. And so they were just like the village next door, but they like the village next door, but they like the village next door, but they were not nearly as affected by the Nazi were not nearly as affected by the Nazi were not nearly as affected by the Nazi blockade. And so they never had so much blockade. And so they never had so much blockade. And so they never had so much famine. Um and you see that um uh the famine. Um and you see that um uh the famine. Um and you see that um uh the children and then I think the children and then I think the children and then I think the grandchildren of those moms who were grandchildren of those moms who were grandchildren of those moms who were starved when they were pregnant have starved when they were pregnant have starved when they were pregnant have worse health outcomes. They have higher worse health outcomes. They have higher worse health outcomes. They have higher body weight. They have higher rates of body weight. They have higher rates of body weight. They have higher rates of antisocial behavior. Um, and we're antisocial behavior. Um, and we're antisocial behavior. Um, and we're seeing that in our research too that the seeing that in our research too that the seeing that in our research too that the second trimester in particular is like a second trimester in particular is like a second trimester in particular is like a very sensitive period of time very sensitive period of time very sensitive period of time potentially for the development of of potentially for the development of of potentially for the development of of um for brain development, for the um for brain development, for the um for brain development, for the development of lots of behavioral. development of lots of behavioral. development of lots of behavioral. >> Same thing goes is it mothers that go >> Same thing goes is it mothers that go >> Same thing goes is it mothers that go into poverty? I've seen is it Joyce into poverty? I've seen is it Joyce into poverty? I've seen is it Joyce Beninson? I feel like she did something Beninson? I feel like she did something Beninson? I feel like she did something to do with this. to do with this. to do with this. >> Yes. Um, so we're working now um I'm not >> Yes. Um, so we're working now um I'm not >> Yes. Um, so we're working now um I'm not allowed to talk about the results yet, allowed to talk about the results yet, allowed to talk about the results yet, but I'm pretty excited about them. Um but I'm pretty excited about them. Um but I'm pretty excited about them. Um we're look we're working with a group we're look we're working with a group we're look we're working with a group that has is doing a cash transfer on that has is doing a cash transfer on that has is doing a cash transfer on unconditional cash transfer. So unconditional cash transfer. So unconditional cash transfer. So essentially cash gifts to lowinccome essentially cash gifts to lowinccome essentially cash gifts to lowinccome moms. Um so some moms get $30 extra moms. Um so some moms get $30 extra moms. Um so some moms get $30 extra dollars a month and some moms get $300 dollars a month and some moms get $300 dollars a month and some moms get $300 extra per month. And then the kids have extra per month. And then the kids have extra per month. And then the kids have been followed. They're they're now six. been followed. They're they're now six. been followed. They're they're now six. And so we are looking at did cash to And so we are looking at did cash to And so we are looking at did cash to moms change children epigenetics. And moms change children epigenetics. And moms change children epigenetics. And the mechanism that that would move the mechanism that that would move the mechanism that that would move through would be moms had an alleviation through would be moms had an alleviation through would be moms had an alleviation of stress, less cortisol, better of stress, less cortisol, better of stress, less cortisol, better nutrition. nutrition. nutrition. >> Uh there so there seems to be moms who >> Uh there so there seems to be moms who >> Uh there so there seems to be moms who get money don't report that many much get money don't report that many much get money don't report that many much lower levels of stress. They do report lower levels of stress. They do report lower levels of stress. They do report more being better able to breastfeed as more being better able to breastfeed as more being better able to breastfeed as long as they wanted to. Um and they long as they wanted to. Um and they long as they wanted to. Um and they delayed the start of child care. So if delayed the start of child care. So if delayed the start of child care. So if they wanted to stay home with the baby they wanted to stay home with the baby they wanted to stay home with the baby for longer, they could. for longer, they could. for longer, they could. >> This feels less epigenetic. and and they >> This feels less epigenetic. and and they >> This feels less epigenetic. and and they also um uh it improves the nutrition of also um uh it improves the nutrition of also um uh it improves the nutrition of the child. So they're spending the extra the child. So they're spending the extra the child. So they're spending the extra money on money on money on >> So I get it. This to me doesn't feel >> So I get it. This to me doesn't feel >> So I get it. This to me doesn't feel that epigenetic though. This is just if that epigenetic though. This is just if that epigenetic though. This is just if look at attachment theory. If the kid look at attachment theory. If the kid look at attachment theory. If the kid gets ripped away from mom, what is that gets ripped away from mom, what is that gets ripped away from mom, what is that uh imbuing into their nervous system? uh imbuing into their nervous system? uh imbuing into their nervous system? What what is the learned nervous system What what is the learned nervous system What what is the learned nervous system behavior? So it's interesting that you behavior? So it's interesting that you behavior? So it's interesting that you say that that doesn't feel epigenetic to say that that doesn't feel epigenetic to say that that doesn't feel epigenetic to you because in some ways every every you because in some ways every every you because in some ways every every behavioral change is going to be behavioral change is going to be behavioral change is going to be somewhat epigenetic because again you somewhat epigenetic because again you somewhat epigenetic because again you have the same genotype your whole life. have the same genotype your whole life. have the same genotype your whole life. >> So if you're changing something is ch >> So if you're changing something is ch >> So if you're changing something is ch and and that change is and and that change is and and that change is >> there's a little record that's being >> there's a little record that's being >> there's a little record that's being made. Okay. That's interesting. I I mean made. Okay. That's interesting. I I mean made. Okay. That's interesting. I I mean I I this is one of the reasons I was I I this is one of the reasons I was I I this is one of the reasons I was excited to speak to you about excited to speak to you about excited to speak to you about epigenetics because I haven't done I epigenetics because I haven't done I epigenetics because I haven't done I need to ask you who the best person to need to ask you who the best person to need to ask you who the best person to talk about like who's the the spicy talk about like who's the the spicy talk about like who's the the spicy world expert who's the plowman of world expert who's the plowman of world expert who's the plowman of epigenetics. epigenetics. epigenetics. >> Probably Steve Horvath. >> Probably Steve Horvath. >> Probably Steve Horvath. >> I've been in touch with him. I should I >> I've been in touch with him. I should I >> I've been in touch with him. I should I should I should bring him on. should I should bring him on. should I should bring him on. >> Epigenetic age. >> Epigenetic age. >> Epigenetic age. >> I should bring him on. >> I should bring him on. >> I should bring him on. >> Um there was this episode of the >> Um there was this episode of the >> Um there was this episode of the Kardashians where the Kim and Khloe get Kardashians where the Kim and Khloe get Kardashians where the Kim and Khloe get their epigenetic age measured. Okay. their epigenetic age measured. Okay. their epigenetic age measured. Okay. >> I think with blood, although it could >> I think with blood, although it could >> I think with blood, although it could have been with saliva. And one of So have been with saliva. And one of So have been with saliva. And one of So there's these these DNA methylation there's these these DNA methylation there's these these DNA methylation clocks clocks clocks >> that were trained on how old you are in >> that were trained on how old you are in >> that were trained on how old you are in years or trained in um how many years years or trained in um how many years years or trained in um how many years you have left to live. you have left to live. you have left to live. >> And then now with new people, you can be >> And then now with new people, you can be >> And then now with new people, you can be like you're I don't know how old you like you're I don't know how old you like you're I don't know how old you are. are. are. >> 37. >> 37. >> 37. >> 37. You're 37, but epigenetically you're >> 37. You're 37, but epigenetically you're >> 37. You're 37, but epigenetically you're more like a 32y old more like a 32y old more like a 32y old >> or and that would predict you having a >> or and that would predict you having a >> or and that would predict you having a longer lifespan. So it's this kind of longer lifespan. So it's this kind of longer lifespan. So it's this kind of biological age biological age biological age >> different to doing telomeres. >> different to doing telomeres. >> different to doing telomeres. >> Yes, it's different. So telomeres is the >> Yes, it's different. So telomeres is the >> Yes, it's different. So telomeres is the end of your DNA whereas this is the end of your DNA whereas this is the end of your DNA whereas this is the pattern of those methyl groups attaching pattern of those methyl groups attaching pattern of those methyl groups attaching to your to your to your >> um and so there's this funny scene where >> um and so there's this funny scene where >> um and so there's this funny scene where they're like talking about doing these they're like talking about doing these they're like talking about doing these epigenetic age clocks and Kim Kardashian epigenetic age clocks and Kim Kardashian epigenetic age clocks and Kim Kardashian says, "Oh, we're going to do the Horvath says, "Oh, we're going to do the Horvath says, "Oh, we're going to do the Horvath test after Steve Horvath who's an test after Steve Horvath who's an test after Steve Horvath who's an epigenetic researcher." And Khloe epigenetic researcher." And Khloe epigenetic researcher." And Khloe Kardashian, I think it's Khloe, goes Kardashian, I think it's Khloe, goes Kardashian, I think it's Khloe, goes horbath. Whoresbath. And she just keeps horbath. Whoresbath. And she just keeps horbath. Whoresbath. And she just keeps misharing Steve Horvath's name as [ __ ] misharing Steve Horvath's name as [ __ ] misharing Steve Horvath's name as [ __ ] bath. bath. bath. >> Imagine that. The most the most people >> Imagine that. The most the most people >> Imagine that. The most the most people on the planet that will ever hear your on the planet that will ever hear your on the planet that will ever hear your name is one of the Kardashians name is one of the Kardashians name is one of the Kardashians mispronouncing it. mispronouncing it. mispronouncing it. >> I was Steve Horvath. I would have that >> I was Steve Horvath. I would have that >> I was Steve Horvath. I would have that in every slide for every talk. in every slide for every talk. in every slide for every talk. >> Horvath. >> Horvath. >> Horvath. >> Horvotation. [laughter] >> Horvotation. [laughter] >> Horvotation. [laughter] Horvath. Horvath. Horvath. >> Chloe Kardashian. >> Chloe Kardashian. >> Chloe Kardashian. >> Fantastic. Um, okay. What did you learn >> Fantastic. Um, okay. What did you learn >> Fantastic. Um, okay. What did you learn about the role of luck through about the role of luck through about the role of luck through motherhood? motherhood? motherhood? >> Oh gosh. I mean, I think that becoming a >> Oh gosh. I mean, I think that becoming a >> Oh gosh. I mean, I think that becoming a parent is the riskiest thing you could parent is the riskiest thing you could parent is the riskiest thing you could do. In some ways, it's the most do. In some ways, it's the most do. In some ways, it's the most optimistic gamble you could ever make. optimistic gamble you could ever make. optimistic gamble you could ever make. And I in my new book, I should say the And I in my new book, I should say the And I in my new book, I should say the name. My new book is called Original name. My new book is called Original name. My new book is called Original Sin. I feel like my publisher would want Sin. I feel like my publisher would want Sin. I feel like my publisher would want me to say the name the title of it. Um, me to say the name the title of it. Um, me to say the name the title of it. Um, in my new book I quote the writer Andrew in my new book I quote the writer Andrew in my new book I quote the writer Andrew Solomon who wrote this fabulous book Solomon who wrote this fabulous book Solomon who wrote this fabulous book called Far from the Tree which is all called Far from the Tree which is all called Far from the Tree which is all about parents and children who are very about parents and children who are very about parents and children who are very different from each other. So deaf different from each other. So deaf different from each other. So deaf children have hearing parents or nor children have hearing parents or nor children have hearing parents or nor like normally functioning parents who like normally functioning parents who like normally functioning parents who have um uh sants chess or music have um uh sants chess or music have um uh sants chess or music prodigies as children. And in the prodigies as children. And in the prodigies as children. And in the introduction to his book, he writes um introduction to his book, he writes um introduction to his book, he writes um no reproduction is a myth. No children no reproduction is a myth. No children no reproduction is a myth. No children are reproduced. Children are produced. are reproduced. Children are produced. are reproduced. Children are produced. >> And as a behavioral geneticist, I think >> And as a behavioral geneticist, I think >> And as a behavioral geneticist, I think that's a perfect description of I have that's a perfect description of I have that's a perfect description of I have my genes, my partners. I I have children my genes, my partners. I I have children my genes, my partners. I I have children with two with my first husband, my with two with my first husband, my with two with my first husband, my second husband. So that's why I'm saying second husband. So that's why I'm saying second husband. So that's why I'm saying saying partners. I'm not in a thuffle. saying partners. I'm not in a thuffle. saying partners. I'm not in a thuffle. My children's dads, they have their My children's dads, they have their My children's dads, they have their genes. and we have recombined them in genes. and we have recombined them in genes. and we have recombined them in ways that are ways that are ways that are unpredictable with every single one of unpredictable with every single one of unpredictable with every single one of our children. our children. our children. >> Um I I think there's something like 70 >> Um I I think there's something like 70 >> Um I I think there's something like 70 trillion possible combinations trillion possible combinations trillion possible combinations that each that each that each set of partners could have with all set of partners could have with all set of partners could have with all their potential kids. And if you think their potential kids. And if you think their potential kids. And if you think about that, about how different those about that, about how different those about that, about how different those children could be and how much their children could be and how much their children could be and how much their characteristics are going to shape your characteristics are going to shape your characteristics are going to shape your life just as much as you shape your life just as much as you shape your life just as much as you shape your kids' life, you really are opening kids' life, you really are opening kids' life, you really are opening yourself up to fortune, I think, every yourself up to fortune, I think, every yourself up to fortune, I think, every time you produce a child. And I mean, so time you produce a child. And I mean, so time you produce a child. And I mean, so many parents describe this phenomenon many parents describe this phenomenon many parents describe this phenomenon where they have a kid and they're like, where they have a kid and they're like, where they have a kid and they're like, I'm a really good dad. I'm a really good I'm a really good dad. I'm a really good I'm a really good dad. I'm a really good mom. I'm doing everything perfectly if mom. I'm doing everything perfectly if mom. I'm doing everything perfectly if you have your easy baby first. And then you have your easy baby first. And then you have your easy baby first. And then you have your second kid and you're you have your second kid and you're you have your second kid and you're like, like, like, "This is this person is totally "This is this person is totally "This is this person is totally different. Same mom, same dad, but they different. Same mom, same dad, but they different. Same mom, same dad, but they don't sleep at the same time. They don't don't sleep at the same time. They don't don't sleep at the same time. They don't eat at the same time. Their temperament eat at the same time. Their temperament eat at the same time. Their temperament is different. How they respond to how I is different. How they respond to how I is different. How they respond to how I parent them is different. So my children parent them is different. So my children parent them is different. So my children didn't ask to be here. They were thrown didn't ask to be here. They were thrown didn't ask to be here. They were thrown into consciousness and then brought home into consciousness and then brought home into consciousness and then brought home from the hospital with this from the hospital with this from the hospital with this genetic package that no one had control genetic package that no one had control genetic package that no one had control over and a family environment that they over and a family environment that they over and a family environment that they don't have any control over. And you don't have any control over. And you don't have any control over. And you know, they're so different from one know, they're so different from one know, they're so different from one another. They're so different from one another. They're so different from one another. They're so different from one another. And I really feel like my role another. And I really feel like my role another. And I really feel like my role as a mom is to as a mom is to as a mom is to who did I get like who am I getting to who did I get like who am I getting to who did I get like who am I getting to know? um while they get a grip on what know? um while they get a grip on what know? um while they get a grip on what it means to be on this planet. So, I it means to be on this planet. So, I it means to be on this planet. So, I have a picture in their room have a picture in their room have a picture in their room um and it's a print from an artist I um and it's a print from an artist I um and it's a print from an artist I like, Haley Baitman, and it says, "It's like, Haley Baitman, and it says, "It's like, Haley Baitman, and it says, "It's a miracle we ever met." And that's a miracle we ever met." And that's a miracle we ever met." And that's really how I feel about them, that really how I feel about them, that really how I feel about them, that >> I met these people >> I met these people >> I met these people who are so different from me and so who are so different from me and so who are so different from me and so different from each other different from each other different from each other um based on the luck of the draw. and um based on the luck of the draw. and um based on the luck of the draw. and and now we have to ride out this and now we have to ride out this and now we have to ride out this relationship with each other. You know, relationship with each other. You know, relationship with each other. You know, we have to figure out how to to to we have to figure out how to to to we have to figure out how to to to attach um and grow and while they grow attach um and grow and while they grow attach um and grow and while they grow up. up. up. >> What's your perspective on embryo >> What's your perspective on embryo >> What's your perspective on embryo selection? [sighs and gasps] selection? [sighs and gasps] selection? [sighs and gasps] >> I have a very complicated feelings about >> I have a very complicated feelings about >> I have a very complicated feelings about embryo selection. Okay. So, the first embryo selection. Okay. So, the first embryo selection. Okay. So, the first thing I want to say is thing I want to say is thing I want to say is I think that having a child again is an I think that having a child again is an I think that having a child again is an incredibly incredibly incredibly risky, risky, risky, ultimately optimistic thing. And I think ultimately optimistic thing. And I think ultimately optimistic thing. And I think babies are good. So, I really support babies are good. So, I really support babies are good. So, I really support people's right to build their families people's right to build their families people's right to build their families on their own terms, even if that's not on their own terms, even if that's not on their own terms, even if that's not the terms that I would build them on. I the terms that I would build them on. I the terms that I would build them on. I I I think reproductive autonomy is I I think reproductive autonomy is I I think reproductive autonomy is really really important. really really important. really really important. >> Good disclaimer. >> Good disclaimer. >> Good disclaimer. >> I I think that's I think that's very >> I I think that's I think that's very >> I I think that's I think that's very very important. Um very important. Um very important. Um I think that there are some situations I think that there are some situations I think that there are some situations in which the upsides seem very very in which the upsides seem very very in which the upsides seem very very clear to me. Like if you have a disorder clear to me. Like if you have a disorder clear to me. Like if you have a disorder that's prevalent in your family and you that's prevalent in your family and you that's prevalent in your family and you want to mitigate even by a few want to mitigate even by a few want to mitigate even by a few percentage points the risk of that and percentage points the risk of that and percentage points the risk of that and that's what's going to make you feel that's what's going to make you feel that's what's going to make you feel safe to bring a child into the world safe to bring a child into the world safe to bring a child into the world >> like that feels like a good to me. >> like that feels like a good to me. >> like that feels like a good to me. >> Um here's what I worry about. So those >> Um here's what I worry about. So those >> Um here's what I worry about. So those are the pros. The things I worry about are the pros. The things I worry about are the pros. The things I worry about is one, you said yourself that no one is one, you said yourself that no one is one, you said yourself that no one understands genetics. Like it's understands genetics. Like it's understands genetics. Like it's polygenic scores and and genetic risk polygenic scores and and genetic risk polygenic scores and and genetic risk assessments are complicated to assessments are complicated to assessments are complicated to understand and complicated to understand and complicated to understand and complicated to communicate even to experts. communicate even to experts. communicate even to experts. And I do worry about are the claims that And I do worry about are the claims that And I do worry about are the claims that some companies are making are they being some companies are making are they being some companies are making are they being matched by the evidence and are they matched by the evidence and are they matched by the evidence and are they being communicated to prospective being communicated to prospective being communicated to prospective parents in a way that appropriately parents in a way that appropriately parents in a way that appropriately conveys the sort of uncertainty. conveys the sort of uncertainty. conveys the sort of uncertainty. >> As far as I can as far as I can see, the >> As far as I can as far as I can see, the >> As far as I can as far as I can see, the only company that's even remotely close only company that's even remotely close only company that's even remotely close is Herasite. If it's not them, I think is Herasite. If it's not them, I think is Herasite. If it's not them, I think everybody else and even they are still everybody else and even they are still everybody else and even they are still at the absolute frontier of how it is at the absolute frontier of how it is at the absolute frontier of how it is that they put their stuff that they put their stuff that they put their stuff >> there. And I mean and they to their >> there. And I mean and they to their >> there. And I mean and they to their credit um have been very transparent credit um have been very transparent credit um have been very transparent about their statistical models and their about their statistical models and their about their statistical models and their reasoning which not all companies have reasoning which not all companies have reasoning which not all companies have done. Um done. Um done. Um >> I think they're trying to do it right. >> I think they're trying to do it right. >> I think they're trying to do it right. I think there's also the larger I think there's also the larger I think there's also the larger question. I wrote about this on my question. I wrote about this on my question. I wrote about this on my Subtock recently which is how do Subtock recently which is how do Subtock recently which is how do how does something becoming a choice how does something becoming a choice how does something becoming a choice particularly around the body particularly around the body particularly around the body change everyone else's experience even change everyone else's experience even change everyone else's experience even if they don't make that choice. So, if they don't make that choice. So, if they don't make that choice. So, um, if you if if we've kind of already um, if you if if we've kind of already um, if you if if we've kind of already seen this a little bit with Down seen this a little bit with Down seen this a little bit with Down syndrome in that, um, in some countries, syndrome in that, um, in some countries, syndrome in that, um, in some countries, screening for Down syndrome amongst screening for Down syndrome amongst screening for Down syndrome amongst embryos is near universal embryos is near universal embryos is near universal >> and >> and >> and >> Iceland, I think, >> Iceland, I think, >> Iceland, I think, >> I think is Iceland is in there, Denmark >> I think is Iceland is in there, Denmark >> I think is Iceland is in there, Denmark is in there and nearly all of those is in there and nearly all of those is in there and nearly all of those pregnancies are terminated or never pregnancies are terminated or never pregnancies are terminated or never implanted. implanted. implanted. And that has changed the perception of a And that has changed the perception of a And that has changed the perception of a down's birth from this is something that down's birth from this is something that down's birth from this is something that happens and it's part of our social happens and it's part of our social happens and it's part of our social solidarity to support this child growing solidarity to support this child growing solidarity to support this child growing up to you chose to have this kid because up to you chose to have this kid because up to you chose to have this kid because you could have avoided it. And those are you could have avoided it. And those are you could have avoided it. And those are in countries that have really strong in countries that have really strong in countries that have really strong um sort of traditions, cultural, legal, um sort of traditions, cultural, legal, um sort of traditions, cultural, legal, social, financial of social solidarity. social, financial of social solidarity. social, financial of social solidarity. They have public medicine systems. Um, They have public medicine systems. Um, They have public medicine systems. Um, in America, we already have such a in America, we already have such a in America, we already have such a fractured sense of solidarity with each fractured sense of solidarity with each fractured sense of solidarity with each other around our bodies. other around our bodies. other around our bodies. And And And how will how might that what's going to how will how might that what's going to how will how might that what's going to happen when that system when everyone's happen when that system when everyone's happen when that system when everyone's responsible for themselves and no one's responsible for themselves and no one's responsible for themselves and no one's responsible to each other responsible to each other responsible to each other um is further pressured by and now if um is further pressured by and now if um is further pressured by and now if you have a kid who's sick or you have a you have a kid who's sick or you have a you have a kid who's sick or you have a kid who has a condition we perceive it kid who has a condition we perceive it kid who has a condition we perceive it as you chose that because you could have as you chose that because you could have as you chose that because you could have prevented it by doing embryo selection. prevented it by doing embryo selection. prevented it by doing embryo selection. Um, so how how does this new technology Um, so how how does this new technology Um, so how how does this new technology which makes something that for all of which makes something that for all of which makes something that for all of human history has been an a something a human history has been an a something a human history has been an a something a chance event turning it into a choice. chance event turning it into a choice. chance event turning it into a choice. How does that change all of our How does that change all of our How does that change all of our relationships with reproduction? I don't relationships with reproduction? I don't relationships with reproduction? I don't think we know the answer to that think we know the answer to that think we know the answer to that question, but that's just that's what question, but that's just that's what question, but that's just that's what I'm thinking about right now. I'm thinking about right now. I'm thinking about right now. >> That's interesting. net net. If you had >> That's interesting. net net. If you had >> That's interesting. net net. If you had the choice between the choice between the choice between uh a parent having to have a kid that's uh a parent having to have a kid that's uh a parent having to have a kid that's sick sick sick so that other kids that are also sick so that other kids that are also sick so that other kids that are also sick don't feel uncomfortable or strange don't feel uncomfortable or strange don't feel uncomfortable or strange because because because no one is using this new technology no one is using this new technology no one is using this new technology or them stepping in because the the most or them stepping in because the the most or them stepping in because the the most compelling thing weirdly enough I've compelling thing weirdly enough I've compelling thing weirdly enough I've been thinking about this a lot. The most been thinking about this a lot. The most been thinking about this a lot. The most compelling thing that I've seen is I compelling thing that I've seen is I compelling thing that I've seen is I didn't realize when you do IVF, the didn't realize when you do IVF, the didn't realize when you do IVF, the doctor already comes over and eyeballs doctor already comes over and eyeballs doctor already comes over and eyeballs the embryos. the embryos. the embryos. >> Oh, yes. They're already choosing. Yes. >> Oh, yes. They're already choosing. Yes. >> Oh, yes. They're already choosing. Yes. I mean, I think I mean, I think I mean, I think >> which you would want to do >> which you would want to do >> which you would want to do >> like you would want to do that. You >> like you would want to do that. You >> like you would want to do that. You wouldn't say, "Hey, we're going to use wouldn't say, "Hey, we're going to use wouldn't say, "Hey, we're going to use IVF. Maybe one of us is a little bit IVF. Maybe one of us is a little bit IVF. Maybe one of us is a little bit older. Maybe it's going to be a older. Maybe it's going to be a older. Maybe it's going to be a geriatric pregnancy. Uh maybe geriatric pregnancy. Uh maybe geriatric pregnancy. Uh maybe um we've had some fertility um we've had some fertility um we've had some fertility complications. complications. complications. Um maybe yeah, fertility comp. We've Um maybe yeah, fertility comp. We've Um maybe yeah, fertility comp. We've been struggling to just get it to take. been struggling to just get it to take. been struggling to just get it to take. So, we're going to get a big harvest, do So, we're going to get a big harvest, do So, we're going to get a big harvest, do the embryo thing, and then implant. the embryo thing, and then implant. the embryo thing, and then implant. The doctor is already looking through The doctor is already looking through The doctor is already looking through the microscope, the microscope, the microscope, >> and they're already selecting usually >> and they're already selecting usually >> and they're already selecting usually for annuploites for crown or things like for annuploites for crown or things like for annuploites for crown or things like that. that. that. >> Correct. And so, they're already >> Correct. And so, they're already >> Correct. And so, they're already >> and they're like, is this one blob? Is >> and they're like, is this one blob? Is >> and they're like, is this one blob? Is this blobby one symmetrical or this blobby one symmetrical or this blobby one symmetrical or >> is this the most circular one? I think >> is this the most circular one? I think >> is this the most circular one? I think that I think number three is the most that I think number three is the most that I think number three is the most circular one. So, as soon as you accept circular one. So, as soon as you accept circular one. So, as soon as you accept that that is the way the IVF is done at that that is the way the IVF is done at that that is the way the IVF is done at the moment, having a dashboard that the moment, having a dashboard that the moment, having a dashboard that explains it to me makes explains it to me makes explains it to me makes very little difference. very little difference. very little difference. >> I think the bigger jump is >> I think the bigger jump is >> I think the bigger jump is uh medically unnecessary IVF. Like if uh medically unnecessary IVF. Like if uh medically unnecessary IVF. Like if someone IVF and then they already are someone IVF and then they already are someone IVF and then they already are having to decide and then you're like having to decide and then you're like having to decide and then you're like I'm getting more information like I I I'm getting more information like I I I'm getting more information like I I can't implant all of them. I got to pick can't implant all of them. I got to pick can't implant all of them. I got to pick one. It's that feels like less of a one. It's that feels like less of a one. It's that feels like less of a frontier. And this is I mean I don't frontier. And this is I mean I don't frontier. And this is I mean I don't know if that's right. Like this is just know if that's right. Like this is just know if that's right. Like this is just like it feels more different but I don't like it feels more different but I don't like it feels more different but I don't >> so ethic. Where's this coming from? From >> so ethic. Where's this coming from? From >> so ethic. Where's this coming from? From an ethical perspective, do you think for an ethical perspective, do you think for an ethical perspective, do you think for you? you? you? >> I don't know if it's an ethical >> I don't know if it's an ethical >> I don't know if it's an ethical perspective. It feels like a bigger perspective. It feels like a bigger perspective. It feels like a bigger technological technological technological leap and a bigger leap and a bigger leap and a bigger social leap and our understanding of social leap and our understanding of social leap and our understanding of what reproduction is. What you end up what reproduction is. What you end up what reproduction is. What you end up with there is if somebody has got uh with there is if somebody has got uh with there is if somebody has got uh some some some fertility complications, some conception fertility complications, some conception fertility complications, some conception issues, they are ethically more issues, they are ethically more issues, they are ethically more justified in having kids that they can justified in having kids that they can justified in having kids that they can select against negative traits and poor select against negative traits and poor select against negative traits and poor for positive traits than somebody. It's for positive traits than somebody. It's for positive traits than somebody. It's the same one of my friends was telling the same one of my friends was telling the same one of my friends was telling me that um if he uses full self-driving me that um if he uses full self-driving me that um if he uses full self-driving on his Tesla and he texts the on his Tesla and he texts the on his Tesla and he texts the self-driving thing turns off because it self-driving thing turns off because it self-driving thing turns off because it can see where your eyes are. It's got can see where your eyes are. It's got can see where your eyes are. It's got driverf facing cameras that look at driverf facing cameras that look at driverf facing cameras that look at them. So, interestingly, the safest way them. So, interestingly, the safest way them. So, interestingly, the safest way for him to text while he's in his Tesla for him to text while he's in his Tesla for him to text while he's in his Tesla is to drive it himself is to drive it himself is to drive it himself >> while he's texting. >> while he's texting. >> while he's texting. >> Yeah, it's like a weird incentive >> Yeah, it's like a weird incentive >> Yeah, it's like a weird incentive structure. structure. structure. >> It seems like a weird incentive >> It seems like a weird incentive >> It seems like a weird incentive structure here. structure here. structure here. >> Yeah. I wouldn't even say like again >> Yeah. I wouldn't even say like again >> Yeah. I wouldn't even say like again I would not I would not I would not I would not feel comfortable saying that I would not feel comfortable saying that I would not feel comfortable saying that someone who had done elective IVF and someone who had done elective IVF and someone who had done elective IVF and used embryo selection was behaving used embryo selection was behaving used embryo selection was behaving unethically because I'm very wary of unethically because I'm very wary of unethically because I'm very wary of imposing my own imposing my own imposing my own >> why does it give you the heebie-jebies >> why does it give you the heebie-jebies >> why does it give you the heebie-jebies what does it do to you given that I read what does it do to you given that I read what does it do to you given that I read just to add one one element here I read just to add one one element here I read just to add one one element here I read an article from Ethan Strauss. He does an article from Ethan Strauss. He does an article from Ethan Strauss. He does House of Strauss. [ __ ] awesome House of Strauss. [ __ ] awesome House of Strauss. [ __ ] awesome substack. Sports reporter, but every substack. Sports reporter, but every substack. Sports reporter, but every time he writes something, I don't know time he writes something, I don't know time he writes something, I don't know much about basketball and March Madness much about basketball and March Madness much about basketball and March Madness and [ __ ] but every time he writes and [ __ ] but every time he writes and [ __ ] but every time he writes something not about sport, it's one of something not about sport, it's one of something not about sport, it's one of the best things I've ever read. He wrote the best things I've ever read. He wrote the best things I've ever read. He wrote this one. It's called My Boy, and his this one. It's called My Boy, and his this one. It's called My Boy, and his son has got autism. And I think he son has got autism. And I think he son has got autism. And I think he describes it as not the send rockets to describes it as not the send rockets to describes it as not the send rockets to space autism, but the flap your arms and space autism, but the flap your arms and space autism, but the flap your arms and make noise autism. and he describes in make noise autism. and he describes in make noise autism. and he describes in like sort of really sort of da d d d d d like sort of really sort of da d d d d d like sort of really sort of da d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d what d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d what d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d what happens when his son goes to a party and happens when his son goes to a party and happens when his son goes to a party and he sees other parents begin to react to he sees other parents begin to react to he sees other parents begin to react to his son's behavior and he almost wants his son's behavior and he almost wants his son's behavior and he almost wants to go over and give a disclaimer to to go over and give a disclaimer to to go over and give a disclaimer to everybody in the room. everybody in the room. everybody in the room. >> I want to explain to you what's >> I want to explain to you what's >> I want to explain to you what's happening. happening. happening. >> Yeah, I just need you to know, have they >> Yeah, I just need you to know, have they >> Yeah, I just need you to know, have they noticed? When are they going to notice? noticed? When are they going to notice? noticed? When are they going to notice? Are they going to say something to me, Are they going to say something to me, Are they going to say something to me, to him? Is he ever going to be able to to him? Is he ever going to be able to to him? Is he ever going to be able to look after us in old age or are we look after us in old age or are we look after us in old age or are we always going to have to look after our always going to have to look after our always going to have to look after our own child? And he loves his son, but I I own child? And he loves his son, but I I own child? And he loves his son, but I I pretty sure he says, "I love my son, but pretty sure he says, "I love my son, but pretty sure he says, "I love my son, but like it would be better if I could have like it would be better if I could have like it would be better if I could have him, not as this." And I understand him, not as this." And I understand him, not as this." And I understand there's a personhood problem here, there's a personhood problem here, there's a personhood problem here, right? That like you don't get to have right? That like you don't get to have right? That like you don't get to have him without that. The only him is the him without that. The only him is the him without that. The only him is the him with that. Yeah, him with that. Yeah, him with that. Yeah, >> but >> but >> but anybody that is prochoice I think has to anybody that is prochoice I think has to anybody that is prochoice I think has to be pro IVF because the only downside be pro IVF because the only downside be pro IVF because the only downside that you have from the IVF is the that you have from the IVF is the that you have from the IVF is the castaway embryos that don't end up castaway embryos that don't end up castaway embryos that don't end up getting implanted getting implanted getting implanted >> which if you're not thinking of them as >> which if you're not thinking of them as >> which if you're not thinking of them as people people people >> correct. Yeah. >> correct. Yeah. >> correct. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean I think that technology >> Yeah. I mean I think that technology >> Yeah. I mean I think that technology I've said this before and I'll say it I've said this before and I'll say it I've said this before and I'll say it again. New technology again. New technology again. New technology makes us have to grapple with tensions makes us have to grapple with tensions makes us have to grapple with tensions between our values that maybe we between our values that maybe we between our values that maybe we wouldn't have had to grapple with wouldn't have had to grapple with wouldn't have had to grapple with without the technology kind of putting a without the technology kind of putting a without the technology kind of putting a fine point on it. fine point on it. fine point on it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> As a mother, >> As a mother, >> As a mother, like you ask me like why does it give me like you ask me like why does it give me like you ask me like why does it give me the heebie-jebies? Does it give me the the heebie-jebies? Does it give me the the heebie-jebies? Does it give me the heebie-jebies? It makes me uncomfortable heebie-jebies? It makes me uncomfortable heebie-jebies? It makes me uncomfortable for reasons I can't fully articulate. for reasons I can't fully articulate. for reasons I can't fully articulate. That's the hippia. That's the hippia. That's the hippia. >> I think part of it is on the one hand as >> I think part of it is on the one hand as >> I think part of it is on the one hand as a mom, a mom, a mom, I can think about ways in which my I can think about ways in which my I can think about ways in which my children suffer children suffer children suffer because of because of because of the genetic hand they were dealt and the genetic hand they were dealt and the genetic hand they were dealt and wouldn't I love to take away that wouldn't I love to take away that wouldn't I love to take away that suffering suffering suffering >> and and make the world safer for them, >> and and make the world safer for them, >> and and make the world safer for them, make motherhood safer for me, reduce make motherhood safer for me, reduce make motherhood safer for me, reduce suffering, right? like increase suffering, right? like increase suffering, right? like increase flourishing flourishing flourishing >> in I mean the value of your kid not >> in I mean the value of your kid not >> in I mean the value of your kid not hurting hurting hurting >> is >> is >> is >> or not hurting other people >> or not hurting other people >> or not hurting other people >> or not it's so so so high >> or not it's so so so high >> or not it's so so so high and at the same time and at the same time and at the same time I think motherhood does at least it has I think motherhood does at least it has I think motherhood does at least it has for me involves for me involves for me involves being in a relationship with a person being in a relationship with a person being in a relationship with a person and meeting with them who they are and and meeting with them who they are and and meeting with them who they are and them not being a them not being a them not being a them not being a them not being a them not being a project for me to perfect them not being project for me to perfect them not being project for me to perfect them not being a um a a vehicle or a vessel for my a um a a vehicle or a vessel for my a um a a vehicle or a vessel for my hopes and my dreams and my aspirations. hopes and my dreams and my aspirations. hopes and my dreams and my aspirations. Um but I am confronted with another Um but I am confronted with another Um but I am confronted with another person and my job is to love them as person and my job is to love them as person and my job is to love them as they are. they are. they are. >> Would it not be easier then to >> Would it not be easier then to >> Would it not be easier then to try and make that person as fit for the try and make that person as fit for the try and make that person as fit for the world as possible? And then that allows world as possible? And then that allows world as possible? And then that allows you to take your hands off the wheel you to take your hands off the wheel you to take your hands off the wheel even more. But fit for the world. I even more. But fit for the world. I even more. But fit for the world. I mean, fit for the world is tough in part mean, fit for the world is tough in part mean, fit for the world is tough in part because we don't really know, especially because we don't really know, especially because we don't really know, especially when we're moving away from when we're moving away from when we're moving away from monogenic diseases where it's like, monogenic diseases where it's like, monogenic diseases where it's like, okay, we have this there's this there's okay, we have this there's this there's okay, we have this there's this there's this genotype and we it causes this this genotype and we it causes this this genotype and we it causes this disease, it's going to happen 100% of disease, it's going to happen 100% of disease, it's going to happen 100% of the time. As soon as we move from that the time. As soon as we move from that the time. As soon as we move from that to these more polygenic, anything I to these more polygenic, anything I to these more polygenic, anything I study, polygenic behavioral autism, study, polygenic behavioral autism, study, polygenic behavioral autism, >> some of the genes associated with autism >> some of the genes associated with autism >> some of the genes associated with autism are also associated with going further are also associated with going further are also associated with going further in school, being more likely to graduate in school, being more likely to graduate in school, being more likely to graduate from college. from college. from college. >> IQ is negatively correlated with >> IQ is negatively correlated with >> IQ is negatively correlated with happiness. happiness. happiness. Um, some of the same genes that are Um, some of the same genes that are Um, some of the same genes that are associated with going further in school associated with going further in school associated with going further in school or being an artist are associated with or being an artist are associated with or being an artist are associated with schizophrenia as we've talked about schizophrenia as we've talked about schizophrenia as we've talked about before and we've talked about before and we've talked about before and we've talked about risk-taking. And one of the thought risk-taking. And one of the thought risk-taking. And one of the thought experiments I talk about in my book is experiments I talk about in my book is experiments I talk about in my book is again thought experiment audience. I'm again thought experiment audience. I'm again thought experiment audience. I'm not suggesting this thought experiment not suggesting this thought experiment not suggesting this thought experiment is what if is what if is what if some some some um embryo selection dictator came to um embryo selection dictator came to um embryo selection dictator came to power and said as of this year 2026 power and said as of this year 2026 power and said as of this year 2026 every couple that wants to reproduce every couple that wants to reproduce every couple that wants to reproduce has to use IVF has to do um embryo has to use IVF has to do um embryo has to use IVF has to do um embryo screening and has to select the kids screening and has to select the kids screening and has to select the kids that have the lowest anti a social that have the lowest anti a social that have the lowest anti a social offending risk takingaking jeans. offending risk takingaking jeans. offending risk takingaking jeans. >> We are going to like stop murders in >> We are going to like stop murders in >> We are going to like stop murders in this country because we're going to like this country because we're going to like this country because we're going to like breed the sin genes out of people. breed the sin genes out of people. breed the sin genes out of people. >> And you did that for several >> And you did that for several >> And you did that for several generations. And so at every generation generations. And so at every generation generations. And so at every generation you selected only the least risk-taking, you selected only the least risk-taking, you selected only the least risk-taking, most inhibited, least antisocial. most inhibited, least antisocial. most inhibited, least antisocial. Is that a world you want to live in? Is that a world you want to live in? Is that a world you want to live in? Like is that Like is that Like is that you've selected people who are most you've selected people who are most you've selected people who are most likely to go along and get along and do likely to go along and get along and do likely to go along and get along and do well in school and be great at having a well in school and be great at having a well in school and be great at having a boss and like be really good at working boss and like be really good at working boss and like be really good at working a desk job and like are very very a desk job and like are very very a desk job and like are very very self-controlled. Perhaps to the point of self-controlled. Perhaps to the point of self-controlled. Perhaps to the point of too self-control, but like too self-control, but like too self-control, but like do you when you think about your family do you when you think about your family do you when you think about your family and your friends and the cities that and your friends and the cities that and your friends and the cities that you've chosen to live in, do you want to you've chosen to live in, do you want to you've chosen to live in, do you want to live in a place that's populated only by live in a place that's populated only by live in a place that's populated only by the most puritanical and inhibited among the most puritanical and inhibited among the most puritanical and inhibited among us? Like probably not. I wouldn't. us? Like probably not. I wouldn't. us? Like probably not. I wouldn't. >> You get the you get to sort of a god's >> You get the you get to sort of a god's >> You get the you get to sort of a god's eye coordination problem here though, eye coordination problem here though, eye coordination problem here though, right? That you parents what we really right? That you parents what we really right? That you parents what we really need is to keep some of this high need is to keep some of this high need is to keep some of this high externalizing behavior in the gene pool. externalizing behavior in the gene pool. externalizing behavior in the gene pool. So we would like you to pay the price so So we would like you to pay the price so So we would like you to pay the price so that we can continue to have this grist that we can continue to have this grist that we can continue to have this grist for the mill that can spread randomly for the mill that can spread randomly for the mill that can spread randomly between between between >> I mean I think there I think you're >> I mean I think there I think you're >> I mean I think there I think you're picking up on like a really fundamental picking up on like a really fundamental picking up on like a really fundamental like exactly right which is that we put like exactly right which is that we put like exactly right which is that we put so much pressure on individual parents so much pressure on individual parents so much pressure on individual parents to be entirely responsible for the care to be entirely responsible for the care to be entirely responsible for the care of their children to to mitigate any bad of their children to to mitigate any bad of their children to to mitigate any bad outcomes. And we live in a society in outcomes. And we live in a society in outcomes. And we live in a society in which society is better off when we have which society is better off when we have which society is better off when we have variety when we have genetic diversity. variety when we have genetic diversity. variety when we have genetic diversity. like there is no evolution without like there is no evolution without like there is no evolution without mutation. There is no um the sociologist mutation. There is no um the sociologist mutation. There is no um the sociologist Emil Durkheim had this passage that Emil Durkheim had this passage that Emil Durkheim had this passage that crime is necessary to every society crime is necessary to every society crime is necessary to every society because unless you have people who are because unless you have people who are because unless you have people who are willing to do things differently a willing to do things differently a willing to do things differently a society will never evolve and society will never evolve and society will never evolve and >> but you are asking parents to pay a high >> but you are asking parents to pay a high >> but you are asking parents to pay a high price if they are the ones that have to price if they are the ones that have to price if they are the ones that have to deal with child that pay deal with child that pay deal with child that pay >> and that's why I think there isn't this >> and that's why I think there isn't this >> and that's why I think there isn't this is why I feel like the the dictating is why I feel like the the dictating is why I feel like the the dictating reproductive policy from the top down reproductive policy from the top down reproductive policy from the top down >> like if someone says no I'm Catholic >> like if someone says no I'm Catholic >> like if someone says no I'm Catholic Like I don't I believe that those IVF Like I don't I believe that those IVF Like I don't I believe that those IVF created embryos are people. I want to created embryos are people. I want to created embryos are people. I want to have children. I want to have six have children. I want to have six have children. I want to have six children and I want to use natural children and I want to use natural children and I want to use natural planning planning. Like go for it. planning planning. Like go for it. planning planning. Like go for it. >> You know, I really think that diversity >> You know, I really think that diversity >> You know, I really think that diversity in a society is maintained by having in a society is maintained by having in a society is maintained by having diversity. But but I mean this is kind diversity. But but I mean this is kind diversity. But but I mean this is kind of a classical liberal idea like what is of a classical liberal idea like what is of a classical liberal idea like what is your conception of the good? Like go your conception of the good? Like go your conception of the good? Like go pursue it, right? What is your risk pursue it, right? What is your risk pursue it, right? What is your risk tolerance for for parenting? tolerance for for parenting? tolerance for for parenting? And it's also interesting because you And it's also interesting because you And it's also interesting because you know I I gave birth to all three of my know I I gave birth to all three of my know I I gave birth to all three of my kids in Austin. kids in Austin. kids in Austin. Forget polygienic screening of embryos. Forget polygienic screening of embryos. Forget polygienic screening of embryos. Even um genetic testing for downs was Even um genetic testing for downs was Even um genetic testing for downs was introduced by by my obstitrician as if introduced by by my obstitrician as if introduced by by my obstitrician as if she were like slowly tiptoeing over a she were like slowly tiptoeing over a she were like slowly tiptoeing over a landmine. I'm not saying you have to do landmine. I'm not saying you have to do landmine. I'm not saying you have to do this and I'm not saying you should do this and I'm not saying you should do this and I'm not saying you should do this. this. this. >> You're talking to a geneticist. Don't >> You're talking to a geneticist. Don't >> You're talking to a geneticist. Don't worry. You should have just talking to a worry. You should have just talking to a worry. You should have just talking to a geneticist. I'm not saying that you geneticist. I'm not saying that you geneticist. I'm not saying that you would have to, you know, I'm not would have to, you know, I'm not would have to, you know, I'm not suggesting you would want to terminate suggesting you would want to terminate suggesting you would want to terminate the pregnancy if it was, but we do have the pregnancy if it was, but we do have the pregnancy if it was, but we do have this option available to you. So, it's a this option available to you. So, it's a this option available to you. So, it's a funny thing that this conversation about funny thing that this conversation about funny thing that this conversation about embryo selection and its ethics is embryo selection and its ethics is embryo selection and its ethics is happening at the same time where we have happening at the same time where we have happening at the same time where we have a climate where if you if you wanted to a climate where if you if you wanted to a climate where if you if you wanted to get an abortion in this state, you would get an abortion in this state, you would get an abortion in this state, you would have to leave this state, right? Like have to leave this state, right? Like have to leave this state, right? Like it's there's very different things it's there's very different things it's there's very different things happening in terms of our our happening in terms of our our happening in terms of our our reproductive autonomy. What do you think reproductive autonomy. What do you think reproductive autonomy. What do you think about embryo selection as a counter to about embryo selection as a counter to about embryo selection as a counter to the crumbling genome tubes thing? the crumbling genome tubes thing? the crumbling genome tubes thing? >> I don't know about this. >> I don't know about this. >> I don't know about this. >> Uh, okay. So, ancestrally there are >> Uh, okay. So, ancestrally there are >> Uh, okay. So, ancestrally there are selection pressures that mean people who selection pressures that mean people who selection pressures that mean people who have got genetic mutations that are have got genetic mutations that are have got genetic mutations that are sub-optimal would have been selected sub-optimal would have been selected sub-optimal would have been selected out. Uh, myopia is a good one, right? out. Uh, myopia is a good one, right? out. Uh, myopia is a good one, right? Both you and me, you chose to go Both you and me, you chose to go Both you and me, you chose to go glasses. I chose to go lasic. [laughter] glasses. I chose to go lasic. [laughter] glasses. I chose to go lasic. [laughter] Um we have to assume that if you roll Um we have to assume that if you roll Um we have to assume that if you roll the dice sufficient times uh both of us the dice sufficient times uh both of us the dice sufficient times uh both of us would be more dead than somebody who had would be more dead than somebody who had would be more dead than somebody who had perfect eyesight. perfect eyesight. perfect eyesight. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And when we are able to alleviate those >> And when we are able to alleviate those >> And when we are able to alleviate those selection pressures by glasses and selection pressures by glasses and selection pressures by glasses and LASIK, it means that we are able to pass LASIK, it means that we are able to pass LASIK, it means that we are able to pass on our suboptimal. So because the on our suboptimal. So because the on our suboptimal. So because the selection pressures have been relieved selection pressures have been relieved selection pressures have been relieved largely through healthcare and support largely through healthcare and support largely through healthcare and support and modern medicine stuff like that, you and modern medicine stuff like that, you and modern medicine stuff like that, you do end up with a civilization that do end up with a civilization that do end up with a civilization that accumulates genetic mutations that are accumulates genetic mutations that are accumulates genetic mutations that are nonoptimal at a greater rate than would nonoptimal at a greater rate than would nonoptimal at a greater rate than would have done previously because again this have done previously because again this have done previously because again this lid has been released. And the argument lid has been released. And the argument lid has been released. And the argument is, this is Tub's argument, um, you have is, this is Tub's argument, um, you have is, this is Tub's argument, um, you have a crumbling genome that it moves toward a crumbling genome that it moves toward a crumbling genome that it moves toward increasing accumulation of genetic increasing accumulation of genetic increasing accumulation of genetic mutations, ones that we would not want, mutations, ones that we would not want, mutations, ones that we would not want, but we're able to continue to support but we're able to continue to support but we're able to continue to support and buttress this with uh, technological and buttress this with uh, technological and buttress this with uh, technological progress. And the argument is that progress. And the argument is that progress. And the argument is that embryo selection is able to step in and embryo selection is able to step in and embryo selection is able to step in and reverse some of this entropy. reverse some of this entropy. reverse some of this entropy. >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> I mean, I I think this idea that >> I mean, I I think this idea that >> I mean, I I think this idea that what humans are doing with what humans are doing with what humans are doing with postindustrial healthcare in terms of postindustrial healthcare in terms of postindustrial healthcare in terms of buffering the negative effects of genes buffering the negative effects of genes buffering the negative effects of genes is somehow novel to humanity or novel to is somehow novel to humanity or novel to is somehow novel to humanity or novel to evolution. evolution. evolution. I don't really buy that. Like if you I don't really buy that. Like if you I don't really buy that. Like if you look at other species, you see multiple look at other species, you see multiple look at other species, you see multiple examples in which their ability to build examples in which their ability to build examples in which their ability to build niches for themselves reduces selection niches for themselves reduces selection niches for themselves reduces selection pressure on some genes and increases pressure on some genes and increases pressure on some genes and increases selection pre pressure on other genes selection pre pressure on other genes selection pre pressure on other genes which are involved in niche making. which are involved in niche making. which are involved in niche making. >> But we would in at least as far as I can >> But we would in at least as far as I can >> But we would in at least as far as I can see it with humans there would be no see it with humans there would be no see it with humans there would be no increased selection pressure. It would increased selection pressure. It would increased selection pressure. It would just be we will continue to compensate just be we will continue to compensate just be we will continue to compensate over and over again. I think this idea over and over again. I think this idea over and over again. I think this idea that there's no selection, there's that there's no selection, there's that there's no selection, there's always a selection, always a selection, always a selection, >> there's fewer selection pressures. >> there's fewer selection pressures. >> there's fewer selection pressures. >> I think there's fewer selection >> I think there's fewer selection >> I think there's fewer selection pressures around the things that were pressures around the things that were pressures around the things that were historically associated with mortality historically associated with mortality historically associated with mortality and now we have new ones. It's a very and now we have new ones. It's a very and now we have new ones. It's a very it's a very common idea that you see it's a very common idea that you see it's a very common idea that you see recur, you know, especially since Gton. recur, you know, especially since Gton. recur, you know, especially since Gton. This idea that like, you know, some This idea that like, you know, some This idea that like, you know, some something about modernity is making us something about modernity is making us something about modernity is making us soft. Y soft. Y soft. Y >> and that's going to corrode or degrade >> and that's going to corrode or degrade >> and that's going to corrode or degrade our genome. This was um uh Pearson's our genome. This was um uh Pearson's our genome. This was um uh Pearson's argument against universal public argument against universal public argument against universal public education for kids. We can't be education for kids. We can't be education for kids. We can't be educating all of the children because educating all of the children because educating all of the children because then, you know, they'll be able to like then, you know, they'll be able to like then, you know, they'll be able to like support themselves and reproduce and support themselves and reproduce and support themselves and reproduce and then we won't be we won't be winnowing then we won't be we won't be winnowing then we won't be we won't be winnowing out the the feeble-mindedness genes. And out the the feeble-mindedness genes. And out the the feeble-mindedness genes. And that sounds kind of awful and shocking that sounds kind of awful and shocking that sounds kind of awful and shocking to us in retrospect, but it made perfect to us in retrospect, but it made perfect to us in retrospect, but it made perfect sense to them, you know, with their sense to them, you know, with their sense to them, you know, with their logic at the time. there's a different logic at the time. there's a different logic at the time. there's a different kind of lock in from educating or not kind of lock in from educating or not kind of lock in from educating or not educating someone versus allowing a much educating someone versus allowing a much educating someone versus allowing a much harder uh inheritance of genetic harder uh inheritance of genetic harder uh inheritance of genetic mutation to keep on moving down. So mutation to keep on moving down. So mutation to keep on moving down. So anyway, you I think it's I think it's anyway, you I think it's I think it's anyway, you I think it's I think it's interesting and that 2B thing that's interesting and that 2B thing that's interesting and that 2B thing that's that's about as spicy of a theory that's about as spicy of a theory that's about as spicy of a theory basically that we should either use basically that we should either use basically that we should either use embryo selection to step in or we should embryo selection to step in or we should embryo selection to step in or we should limit healthcare in an attempt and this limit healthcare in an attempt and this limit healthcare in an attempt and this isn't his proposal at all. isn't his proposal at all. isn't his proposal at all. >> Um but that's that's like really on the >> Um but that's that's like really on the >> Um but that's that's like really on the [ __ ] cusp. That's why I wait 2 and a [ __ ] cusp. That's why I wait 2 and a [ __ ] cusp. That's why I wait 2 and a half hours to [laughter] to bring up half hours to [laughter] to bring up half hours to [laughter] to bring up crumbling genome. But it's a fascinating crumbling genome. But it's a fascinating crumbling genome. But it's a fascinating thought experiment, right? Like what are thought experiment, right? Like what are thought experiment, right? Like what are we accumulating and are there some we accumulating and are there some we accumulating and are there some things that we could what is it the things that we could what is it the things that we could what is it the increase in peanut uh allergies that increase in peanut uh allergies that increase in peanut uh allergies that we've had and that's behavioral? Uh the we've had and that's behavioral? Uh the we've had and that's behavioral? Uh the increase in asthma because households increase in asthma because households increase in asthma because households that use dishwashers and uh have like a that use dishwashers and uh have like a that use dishwashers and uh have like a 75% increase likelihood of asthma 75% increase likelihood of asthma 75% increase likelihood of asthma because not being exposed to Okay, so we because not being exposed to Okay, so we because not being exposed to Okay, so we continue to move. It's kind of like uh continue to move. It's kind of like uh continue to move. It's kind of like uh snowplow parenting but for um snowplow parenting but for um snowplow parenting but for um >> snowplow and not helicopter snowplow >> snowplow and not helicopter snowplow >> snowplow and not helicopter snowplow parenting. I like that. parenting. I like that. parenting. I like that. >> Exactly. It's snowplowing out of the >> Exactly. It's snowplowing out of the >> Exactly. It's snowplowing out of the way. But it's snowplow civilization. way. But it's snowplow civilization. way. But it's snowplow civilization. >> I mean I >> I mean I >> I mean I I guess the I guess the other reason why I guess the I guess the other reason why I guess the I guess the other reason why I'm just not like that concerned about I'm just not like that concerned about I'm just not like that concerned about the crumbliness of our genome. I when the crumbliness of our genome. I when the crumbliness of our genome. I when you say that I imagine this like kind of you say that I imagine this like kind of you say that I imagine this like kind of overcooked chocolate chip cookie like overcooked chocolate chip cookie like overcooked chocolate chip cookie like our genome is like falling apart. I our genome is like falling apart. I our genome is like falling apart. I think about a wall think about a wall think about a wall >> is um evolution takes place in vast >> is um evolution takes place in vast >> is um evolution takes place in vast time. Like evolution is is a slow time. Like evolution is is a slow time. Like evolution is is a slow process that has proceeded over eons. process that has proceeded over eons. process that has proceeded over eons. And And And any attempt to like take what's any attempt to like take what's any attempt to like take what's happening in the last 25 years and happening in the last 25 years and happening in the last 25 years and extrapolate extrapolate extrapolate >> too far in either direction, I'm just >> too far in either direction, I'm just >> too far in either direction, I'm just not all that convinced by it. And also I not all that convinced by it. And also I not all that convinced by it. And also I just think this idea that like in some just think this idea that like in some just think this idea that like in some ways the idea that there's like a good ways the idea that there's like a good ways the idea that there's like a good direction for evolution or a bad direction for evolution or a bad direction for evolution or a bad direction like I don't think evolution direction like I don't think evolution direction like I don't think evolution has is has is has is >> well if you were to say surely you would >> well if you were to say surely you would >> well if you were to say surely you would say a less robust or a more robust say a less robust or a more robust say a less robust or a more robust immune system that seems pretty immune system that seems pretty immune system that seems pretty universally good right if you had universally good right if you had universally good right if you had somebody that was more able to withstand somebody that was more able to withstand somebody that was more able to withstand pathogens and microbes and insults to pathogens and microbes and insults to pathogens and microbes and insults to their their health somebody who has uh their their health somebody who has uh their their health somebody who has uh better respiratory rate, better better respiratory rate, better better respiratory rate, better eyesight, better hearing. Like these eyesight, better hearing. Like these eyesight, better hearing. Like these things seem realistic, like but again things seem realistic, like but again things seem realistic, like but again with glasses and hearing aids and with glasses and hearing aids and with glasses and hearing aids and antibiotics, we were able to come in and antibiotics, we were able to come in and antibiotics, we were able to come in and buttress. buttress. buttress. >> So I I I >> So I I I >> So I I I think that being able to hear is a good think that being able to hear is a good think that being able to hear is a good thing. I also know that there's plenty thing. I also know that there's plenty thing. I also know that there's plenty of people in the deaf capital D deaf of people in the deaf capital D deaf of people in the deaf capital D deaf community who would who would willingly community who would who would willingly community who would who would willingly select a non-hearing child alone, you select a non-hearing child alone, you select a non-hearing child alone, you child that can't hear if they could to child that can't hear if they could to child that can't hear if they could to carry on the community. seen the the carry on the community. seen the the carry on the community. seen the the personhood of the deaf [clears throat] personhood of the deaf [clears throat] personhood of the deaf [clears throat] community, the denial of the personhood community, the denial of the personhood community, the denial of the personhood of the death deaf community. of the death deaf community. of the death deaf community. >> I think as a psychologist and a >> I think as a psychologist and a >> I think as a psychologist and a geneticist, geneticist, geneticist, I think of what's good or bad in an I think of what's good or bad in an I think of what's good or bad in an evolutionary sense. It's always being evolutionary sense. It's always being evolutionary sense. It's always being relative to an environment. Like white relative to an environment. Like white relative to an environment. Like white fur is good when it's snowy a lot and it fur is good when it's snowy a lot and it fur is good when it's snowy a lot and it starts to be bad as soon as it's not starts to be bad as soon as it's not starts to be bad as soon as it's not snowy a lot if you're if you're a snowy a lot if you're if you're a snowy a lot if you're if you're a rabbit. and not not really good or bad rabbit. and not not really good or bad rabbit. and not not really good or bad in some sort of like absolute sense. So in some sort of like absolute sense. So in some sort of like absolute sense. So I can see the argument that's like given I can see the argument that's like given I can see the argument that's like given that humans will always have some that humans will always have some that humans will always have some uh new novel pathogens because bacteria uh new novel pathogens because bacteria uh new novel pathogens because bacteria and viruses evolve a lot faster than we and viruses evolve a lot faster than we and viruses evolve a lot faster than we do. Like having an immune system that do. Like having an immune system that do. Like having an immune system that can keep up with that is going to be can keep up with that is going to be can keep up with that is going to be good for most of the environments that good for most of the environments that good for most of the environments that humans will likely face in our humans will likely face in our humans will likely face in our evolutionary future. But that there's evolutionary future. But that there's evolutionary future. But that there's still a background of like what the still a background of like what the still a background of like what the environment is there and not kind of environment is there and not kind of environment is there and not kind of like a genetically good and like an like a genetically good and like an like a genetically good and like an absolute sense I guess is the thing that absolute sense I guess is the thing that absolute sense I guess is the thing that I'm responding to. I'm responding to. I'm responding to. >> One of the things that you said before >> One of the things that you said before >> One of the things that you said before about um sort of more and less about um sort of more and less about um sort of more and less appropriate behaviors uh especially appropriate behaviors uh especially appropriate behaviors uh especially given sort of the modern world and the given sort of the modern world and the given sort of the modern world and the domestification domestication the the domestification domestication the the domestification domestication the the puppification. Do you think it means or puppification. Do you think it means or puppification. Do you think it means or could there be an argument made that the could there be an argument made that the could there be an argument made that the current push by the mainstream to sort current push by the mainstream to sort current push by the mainstream to sort of dissuade men from aggression and of dissuade men from aggression and of dissuade men from aggression and dominance and impulsivity dominance and impulsivity dominance and impulsivity is more unfair genetically? is more unfair genetically? is more unfair genetically? >> Oh, that's interesting. >> Oh, that's interesting. >> Oh, that's interesting. >> If if men are on average less >> If if men are on average less >> If if men are on average less domesticated and appropriate domesticated and appropriate domesticated and appropriate >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> for a gentle modern world and does our >> for a gentle modern world and does our >> for a gentle modern world and does our behavior needs to be curtailed more than behavior needs to be curtailed more than behavior needs to be curtailed more than women's does. Is that unfair? Gosh. Um, women's does. Is that unfair? Gosh. Um, women's does. Is that unfair? Gosh. Um, is unfair the word that I would use to is unfair the word that I would use to is unfair the word that I would use to that? I so absolutely that? I so absolutely that? I so absolutely >> Well, we're being we're being we're >> Well, we're being we're being we're >> Well, we're being we're being we're being asked to modify our behavior in a being asked to modify our behavior in a being asked to modify our behavior in a manner that women aren't simply because manner that women aren't simply because manner that women aren't simply because of what modern society of what modern society of what modern society >> I mean this has been Richard Reeves >> I mean this has been Richard Reeves >> I mean this has been Richard Reeves argument. Um I don't know if you're argument. Um I don't know if you're argument. Um I don't know if you're familiar he wrote a show. familiar he wrote a show. familiar he wrote a show. >> Oh, really? So, you know, like if we're >> Oh, really? So, you know, like if we're >> Oh, really? So, you know, like if we're not going to change schools, then we not going to change schools, then we not going to change schools, then we should register all the boys and give should register all the boys and give should register all the boys and give them an extra year as the only because them an extra year as the only because them an extra year as the only because because asking a five-year-old boy to do because asking a five-year-old boy to do because asking a five-year-old boy to do developmentally the exact same thing as developmentally the exact same thing as developmentally the exact same thing as a 5-year-old girl isn't unfair in his in a 5-year-old girl isn't unfair in his in a 5-year-old girl isn't unfair in his in his comparison. his comparison. his comparison. >> You've spent a lot of time talking about >> You've spent a lot of time talking about >> You've spent a lot of time talking about dominance and aggression. dominance and aggression. dominance and aggression. >> I want to I want to go up a level to >> I want to I want to go up a level to >> I want to I want to go up a level to think if I can articulate this in terms think if I can articulate this in terms think if I can articulate this in terms of sort of like more general principles of sort of like more general principles of sort of like more general principles and then go back to your your specific and then go back to your your specific and then go back to your your specific question. question. question. So in questions like this when we think So in questions like this when we think So in questions like this when we think about fair or unfair just or unjust about fair or unfair just or unjust about fair or unfair just or unjust I'm still very heavily influenced by RS I'm still very heavily influenced by RS I'm still very heavily influenced by RS the political philosopher John RWS and the political philosopher John RWS and the political philosopher John RWS and his thought experiment which is if you his thought experiment which is if you his thought experiment which is if you didn't know what hand you were going to didn't know what hand you were going to didn't know what hand you were going to be dealt in the natural lottery and in be dealt in the natural lottery and in be dealt in the natural lottery and in the in the social lottery the in the social lottery the in the social lottery what rules would you want for society what rules would you want for society what rules would you want for society And that's an interesting question to And that's an interesting question to And that's an interesting question to think like if I didn't know whether or think like if I didn't know whether or think like if I didn't know whether or not I was going to be a man or a woman, not I was going to be a man or a woman, not I was going to be a man or a woman, would I set school up the way that would I set school up the way that would I set school up the way that school is set up now? school is set up now? school is set up now? >> And I can't I I actually wish that I >> And I can't I I actually wish that I >> And I can't I I actually wish that I could like inhabit the mind of a man for could like inhabit the mind of a man for could like inhabit the mind of a man for a day just to see like is it really a day just to see like is it really a day just to see like is it really different? Is it very similar? I'd be different? Is it very similar? I'd be different? Is it very similar? I'd be fascinated with that. I can't do that. fascinated with that. I can't do that. fascinated with that. I can't do that. But I have a son. I have a child and so But I have a son. I have a child and so But I have a son. I have a child and so I can get to given what I know about sex I can get to given what I know about sex I can get to given what I know about sex differences in brain development in differences in brain development in differences in brain development in rates of ADHD and rates of conduct rates of ADHD and rates of conduct rates of ADHD and rates of conduct disorder, disorder, disorder, how would I design how would I design an how would I design how would I design an how would I design how would I design an educational system such that my sons and educational system such that my sons and educational system such that my sons and my daughters would have an equal my daughters would have an equal my daughters would have an equal opportunity to thrive in them? And it opportunity to thrive in them? And it opportunity to thrive in them? And it sure as heck wouldn't be what we do now. sure as heck wouldn't be what we do now. sure as heck wouldn't be what we do now. I mean, my son's in middle school I mean, my son's in middle school I mean, my son's in middle school and I [clears throat] and I [clears throat] and I [clears throat] I think it's culturally insane what we I think it's culturally insane what we I think it's culturally insane what we do. Like there is no culture on earth do. Like there is no culture on earth do. Like there is no culture on earth before industrial capitalism that was before industrial capitalism that was before industrial capitalism that was like, do you know what we should do with like, do you know what we should do with like, do you know what we should do with our 12 and 13year-old pubertal boys? We our 12 and 13year-old pubertal boys? We our 12 and 13year-old pubertal boys? We should put them inside all day. should put them inside all day. should put them inside all day. Ask them to sit still with each other Ask them to sit still with each other Ask them to sit still with each other and no older boys and no younger kids and no older boys and no younger kids and no older boys and no younger kids and no responsibilities. and no responsibilities. and no responsibilities. And we should put a 25-year-old woman in And we should put a 25-year-old woman in And we should put a 25-year-old woman in charge of them. like charge of them. like charge of them. like >> then we should get them to learn stuff >> then we should get them to learn stuff >> then we should get them to learn stuff that they won't be able to remember a that they won't be able to remember a that they won't be able to remember a decade later. decade later. decade later. >> Like I whereas he does these once a >> Like I whereas he does these once a >> Like I whereas he does these once a month um like go play in the woods for month um like go play in the woods for month um like go play in the woods for the whole day. the whole day. the whole day. >> Yep. And there's Joe Screens and there's >> Yep. And there's Joe Screens and there's >> Yep. And there's Joe Screens and there's a bunch of young men and it's like we're a bunch of young men and it's like we're a bunch of young men and it's like we're going to build a fire and we're going to going to build a fire and we're going to going to build a fire and we're going to carve things out of wood and we're going carve things out of wood and we're going carve things out of wood and we're going to like catch turtles and we're going to to like catch turtles and we're going to to like catch turtles and we're going to fish and we're going to fish and we're going to fish and we're going to hide in the brushes and while we're hide in the brushes and while we're hide in the brushes and while we're there we're going to talk about math and there we're going to talk about math and there we're going to talk about math and we're going to talk about the stars and we're going to talk about the stars and we're going to talk about the stars and and you can read stuff to prepare for and you can read stuff to prepare for and you can read stuff to prepare for your Earth native day. your Earth native day. your Earth native day. >> Well, okay. Maybe maybe I put it in a >> Well, okay. Maybe maybe I put it in a >> Well, okay. Maybe maybe I put it in a different way to unfet. different way to unfet. different way to unfet. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Uh should the additional level of Uh should the additional level of Uh should the additional level of discipline that males specifically men discipline that males specifically men discipline that males specifically men >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> are required >> are required >> are required >> Oh. Should that we have lower standards >> Oh. Should that we have lower standards >> Oh. Should that we have lower standards for them? for them? for them? >> No. No. The opposite. The opposite. The >> No. No. The opposite. The opposite. The >> No. No. The opposite. The opposite. The uh uh uh emotional containment that men are emotional containment that men are emotional containment that men are forced to do in order to adhere to a forced to do in order to adhere to a forced to do in order to adhere to a much more domesticated modern world. much more domesticated modern world. much more domesticated modern world. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Takes more effort. >> Takes more effort. >> Takes more effort. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Than it does for women. It just straight >> Than it does for women. It just straight >> Than it does for women. It just straight up takes more effort because we are up takes more effort because we are up takes more effort because we are being asked to be further away from our being asked to be further away from our being asked to be further away from our set point, right? Our predisposition set point, right? Our predisposition set point, right? Our predisposition pushes us in a direction that modern pushes us in a direction that modern pushes us in a direction that modern society has said that we're not allowed society has said that we're not allowed society has said that we're not allowed to go in. On average, more so for to go in. On average, more so for to go in. On average, more so for >> there will be more people who find it >> there will be more people who find it >> there will be more people who find it harder to harder to harder to >> do that in a way that are that is >> do that in a way that are that is >> do that in a way that are that is considered considered considered >> that are men. Yes, there has been what >> that are men. Yes, there has been what >> that are men. Yes, there has been what you could say a feminization of society you could say a feminization of society you could say a feminization of society at least in as much as traits that were at least in as much as traits that were at least in as much as traits that were more typically on the feminine side of more typically on the feminine side of more typically on the feminine side of the conscientiousness the conscientiousness the conscientiousness uh orderliness etc etc uh lower risk uh orderliness etc etc uh lower risk uh orderliness etc etc uh lower risk takingaking lower aggression lower takingaking lower aggression lower takingaking lower aggression lower dominance dominance dominance those things are being those things are being those things are being selected for that means that men need to selected for that means that men need to selected for that means that men need to pay an additional price you know it's pay an additional price you know it's pay an additional price you know it's more effortful for men to behave more effortful for men to behave more effortful for men to behave >> um And given that, is that something >> um And given that, is that something >> um And given that, is that something that should be recognized? Is that a that should be recognized? Is that a that should be recognized? Is that a kind of price? We often talk about the kind of price? We often talk about the kind of price? We often talk about the double shift that women do where women double shift that women do where women double shift that women do where women have worked during the day and then they have worked during the day and then they have worked during the day and then they come back home. But nobody ever talks come back home. But nobody ever talks come back home. But nobody ever talks about the additional emotional about the additional emotional about the additional emotional containment that men have to do, containment that men have to do, containment that men have to do, especially given their nature. especially given their nature. especially given their nature. >> I mean, so I gosh, I've never thought >> I mean, so I gosh, I've never thought >> I mean, so I gosh, I've never thought about this before. So all of everything about this before. So all of everything about this before. So all of everything I'm about to say is um I'm about to say is um I'm about to say is um I don't have high confidence that I'm I don't have high confidence that I'm I don't have high confidence that I'm right in anything I'm about to say. right in anything I'm about to say. right in anything I'm about to say. That's just as a as a preface. That's just as a as a preface. That's just as a as a preface. >> I should do that before every episode. >> I should do that before every episode. >> I should do that before every episode. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] Um, I mean, part of what's difficult for Um, I mean, part of what's difficult for Um, I mean, part of what's difficult for me to think through that is that the me to think through that is that the me to think through that is that the distributions differ, but they're highly distributions differ, but they're highly distributions differ, but they're highly overlapping. Like, most men are in the overlapping. Like, most men are in the overlapping. Like, most men are in the range of normal women and most women are range of normal women and most women are range of normal women and most women are in the range of normal men when it comes in the range of normal men when it comes in the range of normal men when it comes to conscientiousness or agreeableness or to conscientiousness or agreeableness or to conscientiousness or agreeableness or risk-taking. like the the sex difference risk-taking. like the the sex difference risk-taking. like the the sex difference or the gender difference depending on or the gender difference depending on or the gender difference depending on how you conceptualize it in these traits how you conceptualize it in these traits how you conceptualize it in these traits is going to be the most evident is going to be the most evident is going to be the most evident at the extreme. at the extreme. at the extreme. >> So, you know, we're we and we do see >> So, you know, we're we and we do see >> So, you know, we're we and we do see >> but this works all the way, right? Like >> but this works all the way, right? Like >> but this works all the way, right? Like if you start to squeeze the bracket and if you start to squeeze the bracket and if you start to squeeze the bracket and squeeze the window of what is squeeze the window of what is squeeze the window of what is acceptable. acceptable. acceptable. >> You get like outside of the tails, >> You get like outside of the tails, >> You get like outside of the tails, men are within the female range and men are within the female range and men are within the female range and women are in the women are in the women are in the >> on average you're going to have it's >> on average you're going to have it's >> on average you're going to have it's going to be a it's going to be a it's going to be a it's >> Yeah, but the I mean the distributions >> Yeah, but the I mean the distributions >> Yeah, but the I mean the distributions are very overlapping are very overlapping are very overlapping >> when you run it across multiple >> when you run it across multiple >> when you run it across multiple different traits though when you're different traits though when you're different traits though when you're talking aggression and externalizing talking aggression and externalizing talking aggression and externalizing behavior and impulsivity and risk-taking behavior and impulsivity and risk-taking behavior and impulsivity and risk-taking and dominance. Like when you roll all of and dominance. Like when you roll all of and dominance. Like when you roll all of those together and this isn't just a those together and this isn't just a those together and this isn't just a it's someone isn't just aggressive. it's someone isn't just aggressive. it's someone isn't just aggressive. >> They're aggressive and risk-taking. All >> They're aggressive and risk-taking. All >> They're aggressive and risk-taking. All of these things together and when you of these things together and when you of these things together and when you start to la this there's almost no woman start to la this there's almost no woman start to la this there's almost no woman would be as risk-taking aggressive would be as risk-taking aggressive would be as risk-taking aggressive dominant dominant dominant >> outlying as the out. >> outlying as the out. >> outlying as the out. >> No, even if you were to because on >> No, even if you were to because on >> No, even if you were to because on average you have like these massive average you have like these massive average you have like these massive overlapping distributions, right? overlapping distributions, right? overlapping distributions, right? >> Yeah. But as soon as you go, it's this >> Yeah. But as soon as you go, it's this >> Yeah. But as soon as you go, it's this trait and this trait and this trait and trait and this trait and this trait and trait and this trait and this trait and this trait. this trait. this trait. >> But I don't think that's true because >> But I don't think that's true because >> But I don't think that's true because all those things are all correlated with all those things are all correlated with all those things are all correlated with each other. So I think even if you each other. So I think even if you each other. So I think even if you >> surely it would start to push those >> surely it would start to push those >> surely it would start to push those >> hills out further. >> hills out further. >> hills out further. >> I mean we could run a simulation to do >> I mean we could run a simulation to do >> I mean we could run a simulation to do this. But I think if you were this. But I think if you were this. But I think if you were envisioning like let's say just three envisioning like let's say just three envisioning like let's say just three three traits some sort of three traits some sort of three traits some sort of three-dimensional terrain surface three-dimensional terrain surface three-dimensional terrain surface >> I think that what the things that you're >> I think that what the things that you're >> I think that what the things that you're talking about are correlated enough such talking about are correlated enough such talking about are correlated enough such that men and women are more similar than that men and women are more similar than that men and women are more similar than is commonly assumed. So I do think that is commonly assumed. So I do think that is commonly assumed. So I do think that the there's we definitely clearly see the there's we definitely clearly see the there's we definitely clearly see sex differences at the extremes at the sex differences at the extremes at the sex differences at the extremes at the outlying one but in terms of like is outlying one but in terms of like is outlying one but in terms of like is your ordinary experience your ordinary experience your ordinary experience >> but that's sorry >> but that's sorry >> but that's sorry >> that different than a a woman in the >> that different than a a woman in the >> that different than a a woman in the 60th percentile like 60th percentile like 60th percentile like >> well a question would be we can only see >> well a question would be we can only see >> well a question would be we can only see the behavior of people who manifest it the behavior of people who manifest it the behavior of people who manifest it >> and to say well this is where the tales >> and to say well this is where the tales >> and to say well this is where the tales are how many men should be out on the are how many men should be out on the are how many men should be out on the tails but a wrang tingling. [laughter] tails but a wrang tingling. [laughter] tails but a wrang tingling. [laughter] >> They're white knuckling their way >> They're white knuckling their way >> They're white knuckling their way through life. through life. through life. >> They're white knuckling their way >> They're white knuckling their way >> They're white knuckling their way through domestication and they're through domestication and they're through domestication and they're thinking, "Look, modern society says thinking, "Look, modern society says thinking, "Look, modern society says that I can't behave in that way. I'd that I can't behave in that way. I'd that I can't behave in that way. I'd really better not. That's a price that really better not. That's a price that really better not. That's a price that men have to pay that women don't." men have to pay that women don't." men have to pay that women don't." >> I mean, I think there's a price to >> I mean, I think there's a price to >> I mean, I think there's a price to the I think I'm being hung up on the the I think I'm being hung up on the the I think I'm being hung up on the price to pay like price to pay like price to pay like >> effort. >> effort. >> effort. >> I think that there's effort, >> I think that there's effort, >> I think that there's effort, >> a denial of a deni a denial of their >> a denial of a deni a denial of their >> a denial of a deni a denial of their nature, nature, nature, >> a type of containment. All I'm all I'm >> a type of containment. All I'm all I'm >> a type of containment. All I'm all I'm saying is in in a modern world that saying is in in a modern world that saying is in in a modern world that basically seems to continue to say basically seems to continue to say basically seems to continue to say unless you're addicted to drugs in jail unless you're addicted to drugs in jail unless you're addicted to drugs in jail or homeless, or homeless, or homeless, you are still from a kind of privileged you are still from a kind of privileged you are still from a kind of privileged background. And there are ways that you background. And there are ways that you background. And there are ways that you as a man aren't even seeing some of the as a man aren't even seeing some of the as a man aren't even seeing some of the additional costs that women pay, the additional costs that women pay, the additional costs that women pay, the double shift, the domestic stuff. And I double shift, the domestic stuff. And I double shift, the domestic stuff. And I think some interesting data around that. think some interesting data around that. think some interesting data around that. Um but Um but Um but >> I think that that is a the unseen cost, >> I think that that is a the unseen cost, >> I think that that is a the unseen cost, right? like that would be the unseen right? like that would be the unseen right? like that would be the unseen cost of being a woman, of being a cost of being a woman, of being a cost of being a woman, of being a mother, of the things that you need to mother, of the things that you need to mother, of the things that you need to get over. get over. get over. >> I'm just seeing if there's any >> I'm just seeing if there's any >> I'm just seeing if there's any leeway for sort of guys to have their leeway for sort of guys to have their leeway for sort of guys to have their own equivalent own equivalent own equivalent >> their own equivalent like source of >> their own equivalent like source of >> their own equivalent like source of grievance or like sense of things are grievance or like sense of things are grievance or like sense of things are unfair. I mean, whether or not they unfair. I mean, whether or not they unfair. I mean, whether or not they should, they clearly do. Like again, I'm should, they clearly do. Like again, I'm should, they clearly do. Like again, I'm not a man. I'm not going to speak for not a man. I'm not going to speak for not a man. I'm not going to speak for men. Obviously, you know, the men that I men. Obviously, you know, the men that I men. Obviously, you know, the men that I interact with are interact with are interact with are my husband. And honestly, the the the my husband. And honestly, the the the my husband. And honestly, the the the the modal man that I interact with these the modal man that I interact with these the modal man that I interact with these days is a is a 18-year-old college days is a is a 18-year-old college days is a is a 18-year-old college student who's in my class. student who's in my class. student who's in my class. >> So, sorry to hear that. >> So, sorry to hear that. >> So, sorry to hear that. >> And, you know, who are really just >> And, you know, who are really just >> And, you know, who are really just trying to figure out like what is this trying to figure out like what is this trying to figure out like what is this life thing about? Like, what is this life thing about? Like, what is this life thing about? Like, what is this adult thing about? you know, there's adult thing about? you know, there's adult thing about? you know, there's whether or not people should feel like whether or not people should feel like whether or not people should feel like society is unfair or um society is society is unfair or um society is society is unfair or um society is stacked against them. I don't think any stacked against them. I don't think any stacked against them. I don't think any data point, even if I had them, that I data point, even if I had them, that I data point, even if I had them, that I could come up with to be like, you could come up with to be like, you could come up with to be like, you shouldn't feel like life is unfair shouldn't feel like life is unfair shouldn't feel like life is unfair because here's why. because here's why. because here's why. >> I think that data is really bad at >> I think that data is really bad at >> I think that data is really bad at counteracting these kinds of like vibes counteracting these kinds of like vibes counteracting these kinds of like vibes of feeling like the headwinds of culture of feeling like the headwinds of culture of feeling like the headwinds of culture are against you. Yeah. are against you. Yeah. are against you. Yeah. >> And everything that I've read and all >> And everything that I've read and all >> And everything that I've read and all the data I've seen is that men and young the data I've seen is that men and young the data I've seen is that men and young men in particular feel like they really men in particular feel like they really men in particular feel like they really struggle to articulate what is my role struggle to articulate what is my role struggle to articulate what is my role in society? Am I valued in society? I I in society? Am I valued in society? I I in society? Am I valued in society? I I there used to be a lane for me and now I there used to be a lane for me and now I there used to be a lane for me and now I don't know what that lane is anymore. don't know what that lane is anymore. don't know what that lane is anymore. And you could think about like no, you And you could think about like no, you And you could think about like no, you shouldn't feel that way because like the shouldn't feel that way because like the shouldn't feel that way because like the distributions are overlapping or like distributions are overlapping or like distributions are overlapping or like yes, you should feel this way because yes, you should feel this way because yes, you should feel this way because but like neither one of those really get but like neither one of those really get but like neither one of those really get at the question about like well what do at the question about like well what do at the question about like well what do about it? like well also like this is about it? like well also like this is about it? like well also like this is your personal experience but I mean I your personal experience but I mean I your personal experience but I mean I find the the gap between young men and find the the gap between young men and find the the gap between young men and young women in terms of their perception young women in terms of their perception young women in terms of their perception of society of politics of hope for the of society of politics of hope for the of society of politics of hope for the future of whether or not they trust each future of whether or not they trust each future of whether or not they trust each other other other to be really sad and alarming. And I to be really sad and alarming. And I to be really sad and alarming. And I think anytime you start seeing think anytime you start seeing think anytime you start seeing society in terms of like a zero someum society in terms of like a zero someum society in terms of like a zero someum game, like if women are gaining, I'm game, like if women are gaining, I'm game, like if women are gaining, I'm losing because I'm being asked to do losing because I'm being asked to do losing because I'm being asked to do something that's more against my nature. something that's more against my nature. something that's more against my nature. Or if men's problems are given any air Or if men's problems are given any air Or if men's problems are given any air time, that is unfair because actually time, that is unfair because actually time, that is unfair because actually like women are more deserving. like women are more deserving. like women are more deserving. >> Yes. like this. >> Yes. like this. >> Yes. like this. Um I mean I think it goes back to what I Um I mean I think it goes back to what I Um I mean I think it goes back to what I was talking about earlier with like the was talking about earlier with like the was talking about earlier with like the Norwegian crime which is that like when Norwegian crime which is that like when Norwegian crime which is that like when we begin from the perspective of each we begin from the perspective of each we begin from the perspective of each one of us has value as a human and we one of us has value as a human and we one of us has value as a human and we are all we we are all in the same boat are all we we are all in the same boat are all we we are all in the same boat now like we're all in this society now like we're all in this society now like we're all in this society together. So how are we going to make it together. So how are we going to make it together. So how are we going to make it work for everyone? that feels like a work for everyone? that feels like a work for everyone? that feels like a much more productive way forward than much more productive way forward than much more productive way forward than trying to adjudicate like which trying to adjudicate like which trying to adjudicate like which should people think it's unfair or not. should people think it's unfair or not. should people think it's unfair or not. Like if they do, you're going to have to Like if they do, you're going to have to Like if they do, you're going to have to start with that like as a starting start with that like as a starting start with that like as a starting point. point. point. >> What do you think of the looks maxing >> What do you think of the looks maxing >> What do you think of the looks maxing movement as a geneticist? movement as a geneticist? movement as a geneticist? >> I mean, I know very little about this. >> I mean, I know very little about this. >> I mean, I know very little about this. Um, at the end of the day, like I'm a Um, at the end of the day, like I'm a Um, at the end of the day, like I'm a middle-aged college professor, so I am middle-aged college professor, so I am middle-aged college professor, so I am like somewhat buffered from online like somewhat buffered from online like somewhat buffered from online world. From what I have read, world. From what I have read, world. From what I have read, it does seem to me to be very ironic it does seem to me to be very ironic it does seem to me to be very ironic because because because um um um it seems that some of the interventions it seems that some of the interventions it seems that some of the interventions are making people infertile. like I'm are making people infertile. like I'm are making people infertile. like I'm going to I'm going to look smack and going to I'm going to look smack and going to I'm going to look smack and take a bunch of testosterone and ruin my take a bunch of testosterone and ruin my take a bunch of testosterone and ruin my ability to like procreate. Feels really ability to like procreate. Feels really ability to like procreate. Feels really deeply ironic deeply ironic deeply ironic >> like genetic separ. >> like genetic separ. >> like genetic separ. >> It's Yes, exactly. And also my friend >> It's Yes, exactly. And also my friend >> It's Yes, exactly. And also my friend Paul Eastwick who I think you talked to. Paul Eastwick who I think you talked to. Paul Eastwick who I think you talked to. I did a couple weeks ago. I did a couple weeks ago. I did a couple weeks ago. >> He did. >> He did. >> He did. >> Um Paul is an old friend. I've been >> Um Paul is an old friend. I've been >> Um Paul is an old friend. I've been talking about research with him for 15 talking about research with him for 15 talking about research with him for 15 years. And when I first met him I was years. And when I first met him I was years. And when I first met him I was like what do you mean you don't believe like what do you mean you don't believe like what do you mean you don't believe in mate value? like I don't believe you in mate value? like I don't believe you in mate value? like I don't believe you that that doesn't exist. And now I'm that that doesn't exist. And now I'm that that doesn't exist. And now I'm like, oh, may value exists among like, oh, may value exists among like, oh, may value exists among strangers and acquaintances and then it strangers and acquaintances and then it strangers and acquaintances and then it >> declines as people get to know each >> declines as people get to know each >> declines as people get to know each other. That actually makes total sense other. That actually makes total sense other. That actually makes total sense to me. to me. to me. >> Um, but I am very convinced by his his >> Um, but I am very convinced by his his >> Um, but I am very convinced by his his argument that the core task of evolution argument that the core task of evolution argument that the core task of evolution was how do we survive and raise the next was how do we survive and raise the next was how do we survive and raise the next generation? And so their biggest boon generation? And so their biggest boon generation? And so their biggest boon towards that was the ability to form towards that was the ability to form towards that was the ability to form pair bonds and attach to each other not pair bonds and attach to each other not pair bonds and attach to each other not to out compete strangers for some like to out compete strangers for some like to out compete strangers for some like signals vaguely related to genetic signals vaguely related to genetic signals vaguely related to genetic fitness. fitness. fitness. >> So what do you think it says that that's >> So what do you think it says that that's >> So what do you think it says that that's what's being optimized for now by young what's being optimized for now by young what's being optimized for now by young men? men? men? >> Oh, [sighs] >> Oh, [sighs] >> Oh, [sighs] what do you I mean you're you you are a what do you I mean you're you you are a what do you I mean you're you you are a younger and a man. So what do you like younger and a man. So what do you like younger and a man. So what do you like what do you think? I I actually don't what do you think? I I actually don't what do you think? I I actually don't it feels very nihilistic. It feels like it feels very nihilistic. It feels like it feels very nihilistic. It feels like if we were if we were looking at this in if we were if we were looking at this in if we were if we were looking at this in another species and we were like there's another species and we were like there's another species and we were like there's a subset of young mammals who aren't a subset of young mammals who aren't a subset of young mammals who aren't dating, aren't interested in romance, dating, aren't interested in romance, dating, aren't interested in romance, um aren't interested in reproducing, but um aren't interested in reproducing, but um aren't interested in reproducing, but are interested in are interested in are interested in extreme body modification extreme body modification extreme body modification >> to give the signals that typically would >> to give the signals that typically would >> to give the signals that typically would be attractive by the other sex but not be attractive by the other sex but not be attractive by the other sex but not in order to get the other sex. in order to get the other sex. in order to get the other sex. >> So >> So >> So >> the Lux Maxing community I think is >> the Lux Maxing community I think is >> the Lux Maxing community I think is pretty broad and in that will be a pretty broad and in that will be a pretty broad and in that will be a subset of guys who are doing it in order subset of guys who are doing it in order subset of guys who are doing it in order to get sexual access to women. They they to get sexual access to women. They they to get sexual access to women. They they want to get laid. They want to get laid want to get laid. They want to get laid want to get laid. They want to get laid so they're going to be tall or they want so they're going to be tall or they want so they're going to be tall or they want to go to the the gym to get track. I did to go to the the gym to get track. I did to go to the the gym to get track. I did I did look smacking, right? It was I did look smacking, right? It was I did look smacking, right? It was called going to the gym. called going to the gym. called going to the gym. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um so >> Um so >> Um so a couple of interesting things. This is a couple of interesting things. This is a couple of interesting things. This is defin this is kind of an defin this is kind of an defin this is kind of an inevitable inevitable inevitable end point or one of the points along the end point or one of the points along the end point or one of the points along the journey of u understanding behavioral journey of u understanding behavioral journey of u understanding behavioral genetics, understanding some mate genetics, understanding some mate genetics, understanding some mate preferences from women at least preferences from women at least preferences from women at least aesthetically for men. Um because when aesthetically for men. Um because when aesthetically for men. Um because when you combine those two things together, you combine those two things together, you combine those two things together, you there are certain things that are you there are certain things that are you there are certain things that are going to be more difficult for you to going to be more difficult for you to going to be more difficult for you to change without doing something that's change without doing something that's change without doing something that's extreme. And if you extreme. And if you extreme. And if you are growing up inside of a culture that are growing up inside of a culture that are growing up inside of a culture that is making it increasingly difficult for is making it increasingly difficult for is making it increasingly difficult for guys to guys to guys to be be be to get in front of women in a way that to get in front of women in a way that to get in front of women in a way that seems warm and welcomed. Uh if you're in seems warm and welcomed. Uh if you're in seems warm and welcomed. Uh if you're in a postmeto world where approaching women a postmeto world where approaching women a postmeto world where approaching women in public is something that in public is something that in public is something that many young men have been told that they many young men have been told that they many young men have been told that they shouldn't do that you have a little bit shouldn't do that you have a little bit shouldn't do that you have a little bit of a tall girl problem. socioeconomic of a tall girl problem. socioeconomic of a tall girl problem. socioeconomic success amongst women means that they're success amongst women means that they're success amongst women means that they're rising up through their own competence rising up through their own competence rising up through their own competence hierarchy. So there's ever fewer men hierarchy. So there's ever fewer men hierarchy. So there's ever fewer men that are above and across from them. So that are above and across from them. So that are above and across from them. So if they want to date typically on if they want to date typically on if they want to date typically on average uh woman wants to date a man as average uh woman wants to date a man as average uh woman wants to date a man as educated or more than her and as wealthy educated or more than her and as wealthy educated or more than her and as wealthy or more than she is and as tall or more or more than she is and as tall or more or more than she is and as tall or more than she is, uh you end up with an than she is, uh you end up with an than she is, uh you end up with an everinccreasing group of high performing everinccreasing group of high performing everinccreasing group of high performing women and ever decreasing group of ultra women and ever decreasing group of ultra women and ever decreasing group of ultra high performing men. If you do that and high performing men. If you do that and high performing men. If you do that and you keep on pushing, um, I think what you keep on pushing, um, I think what you keep on pushing, um, I think what you're actually seeing is guys competing you're actually seeing is guys competing you're actually seeing is guys competing with other guys as a way to find some with other guys as a way to find some with other guys as a way to find some end goal. You'll even hear it in the way end goal. You'll even hear it in the way end goal. You'll even hear it in the way that they speak like Clvicular, who's that they speak like Clvicular, who's that they speak like Clvicular, who's kind of the number one of this. He'll kind of the number one of this. He'll kind of the number one of this. He'll say, "I don't care about getting girls. say, "I don't care about getting girls. say, "I don't care about getting girls. I just want to mog." And what he means I just want to mog." And what he means I just want to mog." And what he means is, "I want to out alpha other guys." is, "I want to out alpha other guys." is, "I want to out alpha other guys." And what he's talking about with that, And what he's talking about with that, And what he's talking about with that, like mogging is not just good lux, it's like mogging is not just good lux, it's like mogging is not just good lux, it's formidability. And I'm sure that you've formidability. And I'm sure that you've formidability. And I'm sure that you've seen a lot of the stuff around male seen a lot of the stuff around male seen a lot of the stuff around male formidability is as good, if not a formidability is as good, if not a formidability is as good, if not a better predictor of sexual success than better predictor of sexual success than better predictor of sexual success than luxart are. So it's a really funny I luxart are. So it's a really funny I luxart are. So it's a really funny I don't think that this is what's meant to don't think that this is what's meant to don't think that this is what's meant to happen. They've ended up at what the happen. They've ended up at what the happen. They've ended up at what the outcome should be in any case, which is outcome should be in any case, which is outcome should be in any case, which is formidability is better a better formidability is better a better formidability is better a better predictor of male sexual success than predictor of male sexual success than predictor of male sexual success than attractiveness tends to be by pushing attractiveness tends to be by pushing attractiveness tends to be by pushing for formidability that's coded in a very for formidability that's coded in a very for formidability that's coded in a very man way. It's all about brow ridge, man way. It's all about brow ridge, man way. It's all about brow ridge, [laughter] heavy cheeks, like strong [laughter] heavy cheeks, like strong [laughter] heavy cheeks, like strong jawline. jawline. jawline. >> I just I >> I just I >> I just I >> being tall. >> being tall. >> being tall. >> I feel like >> I feel like >> I feel like >> maybe this is just me being extremely >> maybe this is just me being extremely >> maybe this is just me being extremely out of touch, but out of touch, but out of touch, but >> I'm a woman. I've been married twice. >> I'm a woman. I've been married twice. >> I'm a woman. I've been married twice. I've dated other people. I've been in I've dated other people. I've been in I've dated other people. I've been in relationships. I have, you know, I'm a relationships. I have, you know, I'm a relationships. I have, you know, I'm a heterosexual woman who has been involved heterosexual woman who has been involved heterosexual woman who has been involved in heterosexual relationships since I in heterosexual relationships since I in heterosexual relationships since I was was was 15, so nearly 30 years now. And every 15, so nearly 30 years now. And every 15, so nearly 30 years now. And every time I read this description of what time I read this description of what time I read this description of what women or especially like educated or women or especially like educated or women or especially like educated or high income or like com you know women high income or like com you know women high income or like com you know women who have some social status want who have some social status want who have some social status want >> what they're looking for in a partner >> what they're looking for in a partner >> what they're looking for in a partner how they pick partners who they choose how they pick partners who they choose how they pick partners who they choose to have sex with. I it always to have sex with. I it always to have sex with. I it always surprises me because it bears so little surprises me because it bears so little surprises me because it bears so little relationship to how relationship to how relationship to how I have ended up in I have ended up in I have ended up in sexually satisfying, romantically sexually satisfying, romantically sexually satisfying, romantically satisfying relationships. And I think satisfying relationships. And I think satisfying relationships. And I think with particularly with the education with particularly with the education with particularly with the education thing, I've long thought, thing, I've long thought, thing, I've long thought, you know, I've my first husband uh I met you know, I've my first husband uh I met you know, I've my first husband uh I met during graduate school, so he has the during graduate school, so he has the during graduate school, so he has the exact same education as me. Um, my exact same education as me. Um, my exact same education as me. Um, my second husband has, I guess on paper, second husband has, I guess on paper, second husband has, I guess on paper, less education than me, made less money less education than me, made less money less education than me, made less money than me when we first met. than me when we first met. than me when we first met. Um, so I'm I'm in one of those Um, so I'm I'm in one of those Um, so I'm I'm in one of those relationships that people suggest relationships that people suggest relationships that people suggest shouldn't happen, which is like people shouldn't happen, which is like people shouldn't happen, which is like people marrying like across or down as a woman marrying like across or down as a woman marrying like across or down as a woman >> socioeconomically. Yeah. >> socioeconomically. Yeah. >> socioeconomically. Yeah. >> And I'm like, but my husband is >> And I'm like, but my husband is >> And I'm like, but my husband is extremely competent. Like he extremely competent. Like he extremely competent. Like he >> But you know what? You know what? >> But you know what? You know what? >> But you know what? You know what? Competence is a predictor for future Competence is a predictor for future Competence is a predictor for future [laughter] socioeconomic success. That [laughter] socioeconomic success. That [laughter] socioeconomic success. That is how that would get netted down. is how that would get netted down. is how that would get netted down. >> I guess so. And it's the same thing I I >> I guess so. And it's the same thing I I >> I guess so. And it's the same thing I I always always always >> but I think the sense of like you want >> but I think the sense of like you want >> but I think the sense of like you want what you you know the competence is the what you you know the competence is the what you you know the competence is the signal for like socioeconomic status. I signal for like socioeconomic status. I signal for like socioeconomic status. I actually think it's the rever like if I actually think it's the rever like if I actually think it's the rever like if I reflect on what I want I'm like I want a reflect on what I want I'm like I want a reflect on what I want I'm like I want a man who knows how to contribute to the man who knows how to contribute to the man who knows how to contribute to the family and contribute to the society and family and contribute to the society and family and contribute to the society and like one of those ways could be money like one of those ways could be money like one of those ways could be money but actually I want someone who like but actually I want someone who like but actually I want someone who like again it's competence it's contribution again it's competence it's contribution again it's competence it's contribution >> and what you're using is education level >> and what you're using is education level >> and what you're using is education level and employment level are rough hune and employment level are rough hune and employment level are rough hune aggregates that may may indicate the aggregates that may may indicate the aggregates that may may indicate the level of competence of this person so I level of competence of this person so I level of competence of this person so I I don't disagree, but that's also the I don't disagree, but that's also the I don't disagree, but that's also the same as saying, well, my most recent uh same as saying, well, my most recent uh same as saying, well, my most recent uh graduate student, he didn't even go to a graduate student, he didn't even go to a graduate student, he didn't even go to a very good university, but he was great. very good university, but he was great. very good university, but he was great. >> No, I mean, obviously, I'm a one person >> No, I mean, obviously, I'm a one person >> No, I mean, obviously, I'm a one person like this is, you know, the end of like this is, you know, the end of like this is, you know, the end of >> I know that you're right, but the the >> I know that you're right, but the the >> I know that you're right, but the the the end of one thing is true. I think if the end of one thing is true. I think if the end of one thing is true. I think if you were to look on average, assorted you were to look on average, assorted you were to look on average, assorted mating is real. Um, but that's my I mating is real. Um, but that's my I mating is real. Um, but that's my I don't think the guys are even concerned don't think the guys are even concerned don't think the guys are even concerned about that. They're not worried about about that. They're not worried about about that. They're not worried about they're not education maxing, they're they're not education maxing, they're they're not education maxing, they're luxing, [laughter] right? They're not luxing, [laughter] right? They're not luxing, [laughter] right? They're not career maxing, career maxing, career maxing, >> they're not confidence maxing. Well, >> they're not confidence maxing. Well, >> they're not confidence maxing. Well, they that would also be something. But I they that would also be something. But I they that would also be something. But I think think think >> go learn how to like chop down a tree >> go learn how to like chop down a tree >> go learn how to like chop down a tree and diaper a baby and hike up a mountain and diaper a baby and hike up a mountain and diaper a baby and hike up a mountain and and ride a horse. Competence max and and ride a horse. Competence max and and ride a horse. Competence max instead of looks max. And then like I instead of looks max. And then like I instead of looks max. And then like I feel like that might get you more feel like that might get you more feel like that might get you more places. places. places. >> Well, the the currency that every man is >> Well, the the currency that every man is >> Well, the the currency that every man is playing with at the moment is what can playing with at the moment is what can playing with at the moment is what can be portrayed online. And I can't show be portrayed online. And I can't show be portrayed online. And I can't show you how good I my good you how good I my good you how good I my good >> I mean I think that's >> I mean I think that's >> I mean I think that's >> I can show you how much of a Chad I am >> I can show you how much of a Chad I am >> I can show you how much of a Chad I am but not how much of a dad I am. but not how much of a dad I am. but not how much of a dad I am. >> Yeah. the part that makes me so again >> Yeah. the part that makes me so again >> Yeah. the part that makes me so again like so much of this is reflected back like so much of this is reflected back like so much of this is reflected back to me in my role as a college professor to me in my role as a college professor to me in my role as a college professor and and and I I was teaching a class and I was I I I was teaching a class and I was I I I was teaching a class and I was I made some we were talking about made some we were talking about made some we were talking about de-individuation like when you're in a de-individuation like when you're in a de-individuation like when you're in a dark room or you're in a costume you dark room or you're in a costume you dark room or you're in a costume you feel less individually responsible and I feel less individually responsible and I feel less individually responsible and I said offhand I was like that's why none said offhand I was like that's why none said offhand I was like that's why none of the best parties are going to have of the best parties are going to have of the best parties are going to have bright fluorescent lighting like you're bright fluorescent lighting like you're bright fluorescent lighting like you're always going to have dim light at a good always going to have dim light at a good always going to have dim light at a good party and my students I teach online. I party and my students I teach online. I party and my students I teach online. I teach on a sound stage and my students teach on a sound stage and my students teach on a sound stage and my students have this like ask your professor a have this like ask your professor a have this like ask your professor a question button and it lit up with question button and it lit up with question button and it lit up with students being like bold of you to think students being like bold of you to think students being like bold of you to think that we've ever been to a party or I I that we've ever been to a party or I I that we've ever been to a party or I I heard that there would be parties in heard that there would be parties in heard that there would be parties in college and I've never been to one and college and I've never been to one and college and I've never been to one and my co-instructor and I looked at each my co-instructor and I looked at each my co-instructor and I looked at each other and we were like should we make a other and we were like should we make a other and we were like should we make a homework assignment which is a party homework assignment which is a party homework assignment which is a party like like like >> turn the lights down and put some music >> turn the lights down and put some music >> turn the lights down and put some music on and like maybe make some jello shots on and like maybe make some jello shots on and like maybe make some jello shots and like have people over and it was so and like have people over and it was so and like have people over and it was so it was there are these moments where you it was there are these moments where you it was there are these moments where you you know every year I go and every year you know every year I go and every year you know every year I go and every year I'm a year older and then there are I'm a year older and then there are I'm a year older and then there are these moments where the students ask these moments where the students ask these moments where the students ask something and you're like oh wow the something and you're like oh wow the something and you're like oh wow the culture has shifted and I and shifted in culture has shifted and I and shifted in culture has shifted and I and shifted in a way that as an older person I have not a way that as an older person I have not a way that as an older person I have not been privy to and how much of this is been privy to and how much of this is been privy to and how much of this is they're just not hanging out in person they're just not hanging out in person they're just not hanging out in person as much anymore like like our if college as much anymore like like our if college as much anymore like like our if college students are writing me and being like students are writing me and being like students are writing me and being like I've never been to a party I've never been to a party I've never been to a party >> and all of their socialization is >> and all of their socialization is >> and all of their socialization is happening mediated two-dimensionally happening mediated two-dimensionally happening mediated two-dimensionally through a screen. through a screen. through a screen. >> You're right. Then the only competence >> You're right. Then the only competence >> You're right. Then the only competence that seems to matter is that seems to matter is that seems to matter is >> present presentation >> present presentation >> present presentation >> the presentation of it. >> the presentation of it. >> the presentation of it. >> How do you look? And but that's that's >> How do you look? And but that's that's >> How do you look? And but that's that's not that doesn't go going back to Paul's not that doesn't go going back to Paul's not that doesn't go going back to Paul's work that doesn't help you sustain an work that doesn't help you sustain an work that doesn't help you sustain an attachment. That doesn't help you raise attachment. That doesn't help you raise attachment. That doesn't help you raise as a baby. Like that's not really what I as a baby. Like that's not really what I as a baby. Like that's not really what I think. think. think. >> Think about how antiatalist most of the >> Think about how antiatalist most of the >> Think about how antiatalist most of the sort of modern culture is at the moment sort of modern culture is at the moment sort of modern culture is at the moment anyway. anyway. anyway. >> Oh, American culture hates kids. >> Oh, American culture hates kids. >> Oh, American culture hates kids. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I got in trouble for this recently. Uh >> I got in trouble for this recently. Uh >> I got in trouble for this recently. Uh [laughter] Paige, you're great. Um I [laughter] Paige, you're great. Um I [laughter] Paige, you're great. Um I really really really >> This was so fun and so varying and all >> This was so fun and so varying and all >> This was so fun and so varying and all over the place. You did it. Where should over the place. You did it. Where should over the place. You did it. Where should people go? Let's bring this one home. people go? Let's bring this one home. people go? Let's bring this one home. Tell them where to buy your things and Tell them where to buy your things and Tell them where to buy your things and follow your things. follow your things. follow your things. >> All right. So, my new book comes out on >> All right. So, my new book comes out on >> All right. So, my new book comes out on March 3rd in the United States and in March 3rd in the United States and in March 3rd in the United States and in April in the UK. And it's called April in the UK. And it's called April in the UK. And it's called Original Sin: The Genetics Advice: The Original Sin: The Genetics Advice: The Original Sin: The Genetics Advice: The Problem of Blame, and the Future of Problem of Blame, and the Future of Problem of Blame, and the Future of Forgiveness. And if you were at all Forgiveness. And if you were at all Forgiveness. And if you were at all interested in genetics, addiction, interested in genetics, addiction, interested in genetics, addiction, antisocial behavior, how to forgive antisocial behavior, how to forgive antisocial behavior, how to forgive yourself or someone else for the way yourself or someone else for the way yourself or someone else for the way they've hurt you, or just the free will they've hurt you, or just the free will they've hurt you, or just the free will problem, or um there's a very personal problem, or um there's a very personal problem, or um there's a very personal prologue to that about having a body. prologue to that about having a body. prologue to that about having a body. So, if you're interested in any of those So, if you're interested in any of those So, if you're interested in any of those things, you should check out my book. things, you should check out my book. things, you should check out my book. >> Heck yeah, Paige. I appreciate you. >> Heck yeah, Paige. I appreciate you. >> Heck yeah, Paige. I appreciate you. >> Thank you very much for tuning in. >> Thank you very much for tuning in. >> Thank you very much for tuning in. [music] Congratulations for making it to [music] Congratulations for making it to [music] Congratulations for making it to the end of an entire episode. Uh, the end of an entire episode. Uh, the end of an entire episode. Uh, another one that I think you'll enjoy is another one that I think you'll enjoy is another one that I think you'll enjoy is right here.