The Funniest Conversation You'll Ever Hear About Achieving Inner Peace | Pete Holmes

Key Takeaway

True peace comes from recognizing yourself as awareness itself - the unchanging presence witnessing all experience. When you ask 'Am I aware?' and answer yes, notice you didn't need to reference any external experience. This self-knowing awareness is your deepest nature, always present, always peaceful, regardless of life circumstances. Practice asking: 'What is aware of my experience right now?' Turn the camera back on itself.

Episode Overview

Pete Holmes shares his spiritual journey from evangelical Christianity through atheism to non-dual awareness, sparked by a divorce and psychedelic experience. He explores how viewing Jesus as a mystic rather than through dogmatic theology reveals a message of inherent acceptance. The conversation delves into practical meditation techniques, the nature of awareness, and finding lasting peace beyond external validation.

Full Transcript

Transcript of The Funniest Conversation You'll Ever Hear About Achieving Inner Peace | Pete Holmes from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Ramdas said, "If you think you're enlightened, go spend a week with your parents." I've sat with my mother going, "I am loving awareness. loving awareness. loving awareness. She has my number, man. She'll break me out of that spell." If you can just say yes to what is, that's all you need. Yes. Thank you. It just shortcircuits your brain. That's been one of the most powerful things in my life. All right. Can I Can you just I know you've told it before, but I I think it would be good level setting if you would just tell a little bit of your personal story.

You were raised the next town over for me. You were raised in Lexington. I I grew up in Newton, Massachusetts. And you grew up in a, as I understand it, a bibleelving family, an evangelical family, which I didn't know they had in in Massachusetts at all. Um, seriously, I thought that that I was surprised to hear that that's where you were from, but can you say a little bit about your upbringing? Uh, sure. Yeah. Well, it's a little bit more complicated than that. My mother was more churchy.

My father went uh because it's good to be normal. That's what that was his quote. We went to church because he wanted to fit in and not be a weirdo. That's what he said. Did he have that bad of a bus? Yeah. I go, "Dad, why do we go to church?" He goes, "You don't want to be a willow, Peter. I could call my father's bank and get money. get money. get money. It's Shay Holmes. I just want to send $500 to 444 8911 8911 8911 and they do it." Yes, Mr.

Holmes. Uh, so my dad was not super, no, not he he would cry at the music, which I thought was really sweet, but my mother uh wanted us to go to church. And then I really took to it because I wrote about this in my book, just in case the people with restless leg have read it. Um, I just was a kid that I believed grown-ups. Like if you had a wallet and keys and khakis and you, you know, when the world was just legs, you know, everybody's so big and they're like, "This is what it is.

Why would they lie? They know all the things." So I bought into it even more than my mother did. So that's that's what ended up happening. Um I thought I was going to be a youth pastor cuz this is my head. I went to a Christian college. Um, like technically Harvard was a Christian college, but you know what I mean. Like a like a like a lame one. I thought you were going to say I went to the Harvard of Christian college. No, that's Weaton. If you're laughing, I can't believe it.

Uh, but Weeden is the Harvard of Christian colleges. I went to the uh Swathmore of Christian colleges uh called Gordon College. I haven't heard of it either, but they had like you had to take Bible classes and you could major in youth ministry. This is just a long way to say no one's ever asked me for my degree. And thank God because it it was it was kind of like a summer camp school. I I enjoyed my time there. Um but that's where a lot of people got married.

They called it the MRS degree. Um because people you'll never be there with as many Christian people. That's the thinking. you're going to get out in the world and it's going to be Sodom and Gomorrah. So, marry someone here. And I thought that was really dumb. And then I really wanted to have sex. And that's what it required. Yeah, you got to get married if you're going to have sex. So, that's what I did. did. did. I mean, this is a lot of people. You should know about this.

There's a lot of people that are like, you can't don't do premarital sex. So, you get married uh in large part to have sex. Divorce rates in that cohort must be unusually high, would you say? Yeah, I think so. Although, I know a lot of people that are still together that did that. Um, and I'm I'm sort of joking. Obviously, I my first wife and I had a connection. We loved each other. I got married when I was 22, though. And then when I was everything was just fine.

We moved here to Park Slope um because we were lesbians and my brain was so fast. I was like, "Do we do it?" I was like, "Go, go for it. Go for it. for it. for it. These good money." Broke the ice with diarrhea. Like I think it's all We talked about sonar pings. That was a sonar ping to see where are we? What are we? And then I was like, we're ready for the Park Slope humor. And then when I was 28, I'll really do the broadstrokes.

When I was 28, my wife left me. She was having an affair. Um, only person I had ever been with. And my understanding of of the divine was if you don't smoke and don't drink and don't swear and you get married and you don't have premarital sex, I felt like I had done everything right. And then uh it was like I was paying into a protection service and uh the mafia still burned down my bakery. So, it caused this crisis of faith and I was like, uh, I I dabbled in atheism.

I was just sort of like I started by being like, well, maybe it's not. All my friends are comedians. All my friends are atheists. So, they were all like, "You should listen to this onewoman show, Letting Go of God. You should read The God Delusion. All this stuff." So I looked into it and honestly my first takeaway was what a relief it was to not think that everyone who wasn't in my church was going to hell. That was actually it was a the chapter in my book is called her atheist because it was a a relief of a burden.

I it wasn't oh no I'm alone. It was like thank God we're not all on the brink of being tortured for real. for real. for real. That's that was that weighed on me so heavy. I studied in Israel. I went spec one of the semesters in college specifically to study hell. I just didn't understand how this religion had gotten so with us, against us, in out, heaven, hell, all that. Um, but I didn't really get the answer. Anyway, then my wife leaves me and I start thinking maybe it's not how I thought it was.

And then I met really beautiful atheists, which was really confusing to me. I know. I was sheltered. I I was just like, why would you be good? We There was a story. It was me and I know you should know that there are people wondering that like if if it's not the lifeguard God, why wouldn't The example was we were on a holiday and me and these comedians and there was an unmanned little mini bar and it was just like no one was working it and it was like 2:00 in the morning.

We were probably drinking. We're like, why? And I wasn't going to steal it, but I was like, why not just take it if it doesn't matter? And they were beautiful. I just wasn't ready for it. They were like, because somebody is working this shift and maybe they'll get in trouble because things were stolen. Maybe they'll get fired. We're not doing it to avoid punishment. We're doing it because we have to take care of each other. And I was just like blown away. Yeah, you can clap.

That is not my line. But it was beautiful and it was it was important. You know, I'd grown up thinking like the good people believed in my religion and so I was getting surprised. And then and I'm I'm only a little embarrassed what a cliche this is. I did Bonnaroo and I took mushrooms. And it wasn't that I had a religious experience. It's that mushrooms showed me. It wasn't what I saw. It's that I saw that with which I was seeing. If that makes sense. want to do some mushrooms, bro.

bro. I am terrified of mushrooms. You don't have to. And I I'm glad you said that because that is not my message. message. message. I'm not here. I think a lot of people are advocating that Ramdas was one of my first teachers and and that was a huge part of of that path and I loved it and I I've done my share, but I don't think it's essential. I'm not against them, but I'm certainly not telling people to do them. And and we're learning more about them.

Even though they're miraculous, there are certain neurotypes that do not do well with them, and you might be one of them. So, listen to your intuition. But intuition. But intuition. But I think that neurotype is Jewish. Now, I think you should do them. But, you know, I didn't even take that much. It wasn't a Jesus trip. It wasn't a God trip. It just it felt like I mean I can't really put it any better than that. It was it wasn't what I was seeing. I noticed I saw myself as a witnessing presence.

witnessing presence. witnessing presence. So So So I got a break from Pete. You take this is it man. We're jumping right in. When you take away everything that can be taken away, what's left? And that's what happened on mushrooms. And I went to that place and then I was kicked out for wearing the wrong garments. It's a Jesus reference. I know where you are. It's the same people with restless legs. legs. legs. I And then so I had to come back. And then I didn't go to Ramdas right away.

I went to Joseph Campbell because the the takeaway was it's ineffable. I had a moment. And I don't remember much from that trip like that I can tell you about specifically, but there was a moment tears are streaming down my face. I'm looking I mean I'm emotional remembering. I'm looking at a tree. I'm feeling no separation. All of these things just crying in a field at a music festival and I thought I'm going to have to talk about this and ruin it. So I came back with this real desire to find a way to talk about things you can't talk about and it softened me not just to the tradition I was raised with which is Christianity but all of them and once I found Joseph Campbell I started to discover that the mystics were way ahead of us and they were saying literalism is missing the point it's good to build a bridge it's not good to talk about the ineffable it's good for doctor.

It's not good for a clergyman necessarily. Is that metaphor is the only language we have to speak of the mystery. You could say God, let's just say the mystery, reality, awareness, you can't talk about it directly. So then when I started looking at things like a virgin birth or a death and a resurrection through a mystical lens, I was like, "Oh, they're trying to evoke something. It's not trying to be accurate." I'm not saying it's not accurate. There's a there's a possibility that that's just literal.

That's not my understanding. But I'm saying it's trying to evoke something. It's not to be right or to be in or to win a debate or to convert the most people. It's a personal experience and whatever gets you there evokes that experience in you. And that there were ways without mushrooms of and meditation is one of them. But storytelling is another one, contemplation, study, chanting, these types of things would take you to that place. But I had the pathway because I had had the psychedelic experience.

There were path there were foot footprints in the snow and I could go back. I uh I I don't know that much about uh Christianity, but is it possible to do a rereading for you of the life and utterances of Jesus and view him as a mystic as opposed to the way he's often portrayed now, which is a little bit more encrusted with dogma? Absolutely. And that's honestly one of the greatest thrills of my life. And I'm assuming some of you were probably raised in that tradition.

And that's it's been really [snorts] intoxicating to realize that there were not everything. It's uh Father Greg Bole who's a hero of mine says you call he calls it the mystic lens. You have to go into these things and look at you know what what do you want? What what are you going to take and what are you going to leave? And I I think you have to be careful. But sorry, I people have probably heard me say this before, but it's it's something that I feel very passionate about.

I think all of Christianity can be summarized in the prodical son. And I joke I jokingly say that it's Jesus's closer. That's that's comedians talk for their best bit. Also, if this is interesting to you, historically speaking, it's the most um what's the word? Verifiable. Meaning scholars, meaning non-religious scholars are like this was Jesus. Jesus said the prodigal son. Now to answer your question, I'll do this really quick. What Christ has become, it's called atonement theory. It's this idea that you're a wicked little boy and Jesus died to change God's mind about you.

Richard Roar, my spiritual father, said, "Jesus didn't die to change God's mind." Listen to those words. Change God's mind. God's mind. God's mind. Jesus didn't die to change God's mind about you. He died to change our mind about God. about God. about God. that he's in it with us. God suffers in and through and with and as you. That he's involved. That it matters. It's beautiful. So the prodigal son, there's no Jesus character in the prodigal son. You've been told, I'm sure, believe in Jesus. He died for you.

He's going to wash away your sins, and now you can finally go back to God. That's that's the main narrative. The prodigal son tells a different story and I'll tell it real quick. It's not a king. People often say it's a king and he has two sons. One of them says, "Give me my inheritance." You know the story. Gives it to him. Loving father gives him his inheritance. He goes off into a faroff land. I would argue that's where we are right now. We're in a faroff land using our inheritance.

Life. Give me life. Give me independence from you. Life incarnation. What do we do? We do what we all do. We squander it. We end up broken, destitute with the pigs. For a Jew, I'm not trying to be funny. For a Jewish person, that's a joke. He was working with the pigs. It's a way of saying he's down and out. He has no money. He has no prospects. He blew it. What does he do? He remembers who his father is. It's a recognition. It's a repent.

It's a turning around and going, "Wait, I forgot my father's a loving father. He'll take me back in as a servant." He goes back and the father before the son has even reached the house from quite a distance sees him runs out greets him doesn't make him a servant throws a party fatten calf all those Bible terms rings on his finger special robe because what is lost has been found and then the father says to the son you are always with me and everything I have is yours that sounds like what can't be taken from you awareness me life the ground of being I was with you there you can't become become what you already are.

You were my son here. You were my son there. All he did was remember. Now, what we've turned Christianity into, and I say this with love for my tradition, there needs to be a Jesus figure. So, somebody finds the guy with the pigs broken down and says, "I'll walk you back to your father." Now, your father is a vengeful man. Someone needs to be killed for this, for your sins, you wicked boy. We know he won't listen to reason, but I'll let him kill me so he'll take you back because he know somebody's heads need to roll, but it'll be me.

That would be the Jesus figure as we've come to understand it. That's not what it is. He just remembers who his father is. Now, I'm not saying you need to use those languages like I'm I'm God's son. That's a little too religious. I understand. But you go, you can't become what you already are. It's it's a metaphor. Jesus uses the idea of sons and fathers to say no matter what you do, you'll always be your parents' child. It's you can't become what you already are. And to quote Richard Roar, the whole Christian me the Christian message is to accept that you are accepted.

That's what the prodigal son does. He accepts that he's accepted that he can go home. That's that's Christianity to me. I say this as a compliment. You have a preachers style. preachers style. preachers style. You do. You do. You do. Well, I watch preachers every Sunday. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You come by it honestly. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's great. I come by it honestly. Good [clears throat] phrase. Um, Um, Um, so when you say God, cuz you do you you're not um uh you're not in the same situation now as you were in your childhood in your 20s.

You're if you're a Christian at all, you're a different kind of Christian. But you still use the word God. What do you mean by that word? Awareness. Awareness. Awareness. And let's unpack awareness. Um, hostile witness. Uh, awareness, consciousness, knowing. So, I think maybe maybe you gave a a pretty for to me uh a pretty like comprehensible like I got it uh description when you were talking about your first mushroom trip where you said took away everything except except except that's right. What the [ __ ] that I like the most Buddhists my Buddhists what is but does not exist.

I don't want to say it's the best one. I think it's the best one. what is but doesn't exist. Now, we're supposed to go sit with that for a month. So, to exist means to stand out from. I'm getting all of this from my teacher Rupert Spyro who explains it way better than me. But it's to stand out from. So, the awareness is the background. You are aware of your experience. I stand out from it and I seem to exist. So, to not exist, it it is is is but we can't it's nothing.

We can't find it. So, it doesn't exist. doesn't stand out from the background because it is the background. We're like characters in a movie and awareness or knowing knowing might be better is the screen. It's it's what makes our experience knowable. So clearly if when we were meditating if you look at your mind you're aware of your thoughts but a thought isn't aware. There's something aware that's looking at your thoughts. We hear the car horn. It appears in awareness. Mind adds Did you hear the car horns?

car horns? car horns? Mind adds the interpretation far away, but it couldn't be closer to you. It's made of you. It happened in you. That's why we say the nature of existence is love. It let it in. [clears throat] It gave it support. It was there. And we we go car horn far away. But it's the background in which and out of which everything is made. made. made. So the nature of existence of is love because love is acceptance. I guess yeah this this might be a little out of my depth to explain but I see it as a yes.

I was just going to say this is a safe place to be a [ __ ] artist cuz it's like like like bro. bro. bro. Well, even if you're resisting it, what you're resisting has already been welcomed into awareness. So meditation is trying to not conjure up this thing that doesn't exist. You're trying to mimic your own nature. You know what I'm saying? Like you are this fresh this fresh this fresh allowing. Again, Rupert uses the the metaphor the space of this room. We could be fighting. We could be dancing.

It doesn't change the nature of this room. And to me, meditation is has a lot to do with knowing yourself to be that. And what's better than being spacious? I spent the first half of my spiritual life wanting to be right or persuasive or impressive. And now I my heroes are like the space in this room room room accommodating, accommodating, accommodating, fresh, fresh, fresh, clear. And it's not just a thought experiment to go like, okay, I'm like the space in this room. Once you recognize that you are like a field of knowing, which is a little bit easier to know when your eyes are closed, but you can still know when your eyes are open.

This field of knowing, the second step is to ask what is the nature of that knowing? because it's again rupert without agitation. So we call that peaceful, you know, it's happy, it's joyful. I don't mean the kind of joy you get when you eat ice cream. I'm not talking about oxytocin or whatever. I'm talking about without agitation. So when I wake up at 4 in the morning, as I inevitably will tonight, replaying moments from our dinner, you will. you will. you will. Yeah, for sure. Restless legs.

Restless legs. Restless legs. Yeah. Do you know anything for that? No. I'll get up to pee and then I'll get back in the bed and I'll be like, "Oh, what's what what did I say to Dan? What did I embarrass myself?" And I'll just have to go who or what is aware of my experience and then if you want to get tantric with it, let's say I do it's emotional, you feel humiliation. feel humiliation. feel humiliation. So the vidantic approach is to step aside from it and go I am not humiliation.

I am aware of my humiliation. But the tantric approach is to go, let's get as close as we can to that and let it in for tea. Beyond no resistance, welcoming. resistance, welcoming. resistance, welcoming. And you see this thing that you called humiliation is actually kind of a grabag of 75 different feelings. And in my experience, experience, experience, 62 of them are bliss. And there are some ones that you you don't know what to do with, but they they're like children. They wanted you to pat them on the head, you know, and and so you go into it, but then you go like there's this experience and then there's the knowing of it.

That's kind of Ramdas's approach. RER would go there's no diff there's no distance between the knowing of it and the experiencing of it. It's made of the knowing of it. And then you and then you just kind of fall into that. Look, I I have I think two ways of understanding it from my standpoint. So I I want to say them to you and and then just get a sense of it of whether what I just said makes any sense. Sure. Sure. Sure. Um so on the on the example you gave about humiliation about humiliation about humiliation u so from my like basic old school Buddhist mindfulness approach.

Well, anything you're feeling with the microscope of mindfulness can be investigated and broken apart into what you say 60 constituent parts. You know, it's a buzzing in the chest. It's a starburst of thoughts. It's uh rumbling in the tummy. It's a bunch of stuff. And in this way, I believe I love this phrase. I believe it's um seeing by dividing is the way they describe insight meditation or bipasana. Um, and so you see that this thing that feels monolithic, personally monogrammed, is actually made up of these fluxing parts.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and it it kind of loses its power in that way. So that's one way in. I have another another another way in, but does that how does that land with you? What I just said? I like that. Okay. Yeah. I think we're talking about the same thing. I get a little bit like, what is this experience made of? And there's a comfort to going it's me. It's it's a modulation of myself and there's no distance between there is I don't find a knower and an experience.

I find experiencing and it's very intimate and it's very close and that helps me release it a little bit. Hey, you know, it's like if you close your eyes and and go to the experience of your body right now, you know, you feel your butt on the seat, maybe your elbows on the armrest. You see that there isn't really a a body per se. There's just the knowing of these different clusters of sensation. And this either does it for you or it doesn't. So if we stick with that, we have we have body.

Well, we drop that and we just go, okay, there's a tingling at the bottom of our feet, our face, our hands, and then there's my voice. voice. voice. And then there's your thought. I like this. I don't like this. Is there a distance between where my voice is appearing in this field, this knowing field, and the thought? Now picture Michael Jordan. Isn't he right in the same Isn't he emerging out of the same place that the knowing of my voice is emerging? The knowing of the image of Michael Jordan.

This is what Rupert says. He says, "Put out an imaginary hand and pass through your mind's eye image of Michael Jordan and say, what is this made of?" Do that with my voice. What is this made of? And really, I don't want to answer that for you. Like, what what is it made of? The thought, the feeling, the sensation of my feet. What is it made of? Where is it happening? The sound of a distant thing. Your thought now a feeling comes up. An emotion. There's something really liberating about going, it's me.

It's a modulation of me. It It's the knowing of it. Is it? And then do we find a boundary? Can you go somewhere here where it ends? Is there a wall, a divider where you find and on the other side of it there isn't knowing? isn't knowing? isn't knowing? Now we kind of start to cozy into the dimensionless quality. You could call that infinite, but it's I kind of like dimensionless. It's just kind of spaceless, but it's without boundary. And this is where you get compassion.

When we were all meditating, when all our thoughts, let's all say we all got to that thoughtless place, were we different, when you're deeply asleep? Everybody's Enya. Everybody's Enya. Everybody's Enya. Everybody's Enya on the inside. Nobody's Metallica. I like Metallica. I'm just saying if you could calm anybody to zero, same. So when I'm struggling with somebody, somebody, somebody, we share the same nature. You and I share the same nature and we can go there. That's what's beautiful about things like this. We can actually go there together.

How many boundaryless, borderless, infinite spaces could there be? You know, your house is over there, my house is over there. The empty space inside is the same. It's like the Dao. The vase has a shape, but it's the empty space inside that makes it useful. These are people trying to evoke the importance of the nothing. Does that make sense? That's a tough question. Um, let me let me give you the second way in because you use the phrase we can go there. We can go there together.

And I in my experience sometimes these conversations can be beautiful but also a little frustrating for people because it's like ah I I can't get there. I don't you know like I I I can't fully gro it or experience it for myself. And so the one technique for me that's been very helpful and I'm just curious to hear your thoughts on it is it comes from Joseph Goldstein who is a a great meditation teacher and a great friend and he um has this practice called the passive voice practice.

So in your beautiful sort of impromptu meditation you were guiding us in you were having us tune into the fluxing sensations that we're calling body. Um and so one little linguistic trick you can do is oh um tightness or pressure is being known instead of oh I'm knowing or I'm aware of these sensations. Oh these sensations are being known and then known by what? That's right. Then you're just like turning the camera back at itself in a way and like oh what who's taking delivery of these who's taking delivery of these sensory packages?

What is knowing it? And there's there's nothing to find. to find. to find. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the finding. Yeah. I I never understood those like Alan Watts would talk about can a knife cut itself or can a flashlight point at itself and that's kind of the space that we're in and that's why we want metaphor and we want evocative things. But it's if our awareness is like the sun and it shines on the earth and it makes things knowable even not even but science would agree with that there's consciousness and it makes things knowable to me what we're talking about and I think we are doing the same thing is the sun does illumine itself illumine itself illumine itself it is self luminous again this is rupert we are self- knowing like something that's very useful to me is like am I I aware and if you all ask yourself am I aware and you go you go and you go yeah I'm aware where did you go to what experience and again this is all Rupert Spyra Rupert Spyra Rupert Spyra to what experience are you referring when you come back definitively with a yes yes yes what was that and don't say I have this written on my mirror don't say I don't know because you're having the experience right now That's the issue is what we're talking about when this starts sounding and I'm with you can start sounding a little too out there, a little too weird or whatever, confusing, conceptual.

We're talking about the most intimate familiar experience and not just to get familiar with it, but to align ourselves with its qualities. It's fulfilled. fulfilled. fulfilled. It's at peace. And when you talk about 10% happier, obviously I was thinking about happiness. There's different altitudes to answer that question at. And don't get me wrong, I'm all about finding your purpose. I'm all about sharing art, connection, helping, all family, love. We can have that chat. The most lasting one is getting familiar with who you are because that's their take it from me.

Take it from an affirmation addict. I did town hall on Friday. It's gone. It's gone. You know what I mean? That's I did a comedy show. went great. Show it to me. I don't buy into the idea. Tony Robbins, who I like, talks about living his life for rocking chair moments. When he's old, he'll sit in a rocking chair and remember all the things he did. With respect, I don't buy it. it. it. I don't think that's how it goes. I think what you should what we should be going for is peace of mind, self-abiding, self-abiding, self-abiding, self-reme, all of these things, because that's a lasting peace that doesn't even need to be conceptualized.

is if if we're old and falling completely apart, it's still with you. What are the modalities for you that help you get peace of mind? I mean, honestly, conversations like this I meditation obviously I I mean obviously meaning I think we have that in common. And then and then sort of strangely service getting this is fun, but my wife when she left she was like you're going to love it. You're going to talk about your favorite thing to talk about. So this is indulgent. And then when I'm with my daughter, I'm not thinking, oh, we're in God's dream.

I'm just loving my daughter. And that is worth a thousand live podcast that 10 thou a million. You know what I mean? So we can come at it lots of different ways. I'm not I I I'm not quite fully baked yet that I could say there's nothing to nothing to nothing to uh the seeming the my uh or whatever you want to call it. I I think it matters that we had a nice dinner. I think it matters that we were joking backstage. I think it matters that you're smiling.

I think it matters that my wife kissed me before she left. I think it matters that I'm excited that I'm going to see my daughter tomorrow. I think it matters that I did a show, that I did what's written in my bones to give to other people, and I can still recall the faces of the people laughing and the and the thrill of that connection and that merging. I'll talk out the other side of my face as well. I'm just also very interested in what Jesus called the peace that passeth understanding that one too, one too, one too, King James.

King James. King James. Both. I'm interested in both. You called yourself an affirmation addict. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, I felt seen when you said it. Um, good boy. good boy. good boy. Thank you. [sighs and gasps] So, say more about that. I meant specifically the the how good a BOY I AM. JUST FABULOUS. GREAT. Great stuff. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. You want to talk about that though? I want to talk about addiction to affirmation. affirmation. affirmation. Yeah. I think everybody's trying to feel safe. safe. safe. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think people are using outmoded out outdated modalities. Um, and I don't I don't You like IFS? I like IFS. I don't think there's any I say that with no shame. I learned getting laughs and being a Golden Boy meant meant meant uh less fighting, more safety, more quiet quiet quiet for everybody. So, it's a wound, but it's not it's not it's not I I don't begrudge it and and it's useful. We were talking backstage. I was like, "Yeah, there are days where I'm depressed or anxious and then I'm I'm driven into the hands of other people when I'm broken." This Pete is only so useful.

Well, we're like a screen in the movie. Like, that's fine. But bro, broken Pete is actually one of my favorite pets cuz he needs you. And God, that's we talked about this at the pre-tholy the pre-tholy the pre-tholy and wholeness. It's the same root, right? We need each other. We belong to each other. Ramdas would say we're walking each other home. So the Pete that's an affirmation act. It is like thank God. thank God. thank God. You know You know You know how much closer to me do you feel to knowing we have the same thing?

I think this whole roose is an excuse to love each other. It's all an elaborate hoax. And I've had experiences this undulating overflowing overflowing overflowing gratuitous almost obscene yes of ah can't help. It's its nature to erupt and expand and clash and we're all going to go backstage and take off our masks and laugh to tears. And I'll say, "Thank God I was that guy that just needed people to laugh or he felt like a wicked boy." You You You wouldn't be talking if we weren't affirmation addicts.

affirmation addicts. affirmation addicts. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. This not This wouldn't be happening. Great. It's all an excuse. It's a hoax. If we were fine, we'd be at home. Right. So, our wives, yes, yes, yes, are not here tonight. Um, not by mistake. Um, that your wife's at a play, my wife's at home. And th those people are fine. Valerie is, you said it backstage that she's just sunlight. Not everybody sees it. So, I I think I'm not just saying this cuz you like it, but that's a credit to you.

There's certain people that can see Valerie and I just think she's incredible and she's not It's funny talk talk about happiness, relational happiness. We just uncovered this. I was like I we've been together for 13 years and we really are just I I I don't know. It's just one of the great loves. I really think it is. And sometimes people say, "What's your secret?" And we go I say, "Find someone who thinks what's annoying about you is funny. funny. funny. And that's Valerie. I do a meditation event.

I open by saying diarrhea. She would be like, "That's my man." She would and she wouldn't be faking it. She'd literally she'd feel embarrassed and she'd be like a warm I she says to me the most loving thing she says is uh cuz I'm I'm quirky. I'm I'm weird. She'll tell you I'm 75 people in a day and she sees all of them and she goes and I and I say to her, "My first wife left me." And I'll be like, "Please don't leave me." You know, like I know it's so tender, right?

And she goes, "I'd be bored with anyone else." Can you hear? Ah, wow. But yeah, she's not here. She's at Oh, Mary. Mary. Mary. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm proud of her because we both deal with codependence. So, she she loves being like a support. She wants to be there. I' I'd have checked in with her 12 times. She'd be smiling, you know. She went and [clears throat] I'm proud of her. I was like, "You really wanted to see that show. It's the last night. Go see it." So, she's doing good stuff, too.

Our wives are a little different because after one of my events, one of the rare ones that she came to, um, h backstage, she said, "I like you so much better in public. It's fantastic. It's fantastic. It's a great line. It sounds like I'll enjoy her if I get to meet her." Yeah. It still hurts a little actually, my story. my story. my story. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Noval is incredibly sweet, but I am sort of a a little bit of a baby. I again I'm self-directing back to the topic of happiness.

I think there's something about being unmbarrassed that that's how I am. I'm I say this to Val all the time. I'm like I'm not resigned to being this way, you know, like I am working on it, but like thank you for reassuring me here that all this sort of stuff. It's we talked about it backstage. It's like I'll go and entertain a thousand people and and and really get them and and then I just need somebody to be like you weren't embarrassing. embarrassing. embarrassing. You don't need to be afraid.

It it's it's this real there's a pendulum swing. And again, thank God. Mhm. Cuz if I came home the guy that was on stage, nobody I mean I love that guy, but like that's not he's not a great partner or father. Like you need a real person. That's the other thing about happiness is like having outlets. I I feel like you know how we're one of the few tribes that don't do like you know American tribe. We don't do mask work. We don't we don't we do Halloween but we don't have a lot of allowances for like like New Year's.

Oh, it was kind of wild on New Year's. You know, it's such a pathetic substitute for cultures that understood the nuance, the dreamlike, ethereal quality of all the different masks we wear. And that is one of the reasons I think I'm a very like a deeply happy person is I have these can grab this vine and swing to a pirate ship and be a comedian. I know it's not all of me, but it's this whole other thing. And then I also get that psychological need. I need to be heard and I need to be understood and people laugh.

I like the laugh, but I like the connection more. I like the understanding more. And then I swing back. I tell Val after I do the show, I'm like, I won't tell that joke for a month. And those 30 days, I'll just be, you know, a boring dad. I love it. But it it's because of that outlet. It could be karaoke. I don't It doesn't have to be show business, but it could be that friend that I I'm so grateful for friends that love salty me cuz I I like being People know me as like a sweet, positive guy.

That's true. But man, I love roasting things. Man, I love complaining. complaining. complaining. I love being a [ __ ] And when you find real friends that don't just allow that, but celebrate that, that's that's like wearing masks. It's like it's a drinking buddy or it's a it's your choir. These are the people that know this side of me. I find that to be really And then you're not I'm not burdening my wife. I I I obviously I don't think it's just a burden, but like comedy me is like takes, hot takes.

That's great, but like you don't want to be with that guy all the time. So when I'm at dinner, I'm not do doing hot takes. Like it's like I got it out of my system. So outlets could be your baseball team, but places where you can do it. do it. do it. You know, You know, You know, when as you're speaking, I'm thinking a little bit about RuPaul's brilliant stuff on drag. Yeah. you know, just that that is I mean it's it's it's mask work. mask work.

mask work. It's mask work, but most people aren't doing it. doing it. doing it. And I think that's a real loss. I I always thought it was funny or interesting that in some of these uh tribes that do mask work, they put on the mask of like the misfit, the devil, and they look in the mirror and they go, "Oh, "Oh, "Oh, I'm the devil." And then they get to act that way and and and everyone knows it's divine. putting on a show is divine. I'm not Pete.

You're not Dan. I don't know your names, but you're not that. You look in the mirror and go this. And you go around and people keep nudging you to be what they think you are and what you told them they are. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's it's it's de I think one of the reasons why we sometimes way too much but acclaim actors when Merryill Street transforms, we go, I knew it. I knew you weren't that last one and you're not this one. this one.

this one. We're we're not that. I I think there's more understanding someone so so-called non-spiritual people when a baseball player Red Sox is traded to the Yankees like Johnny Damon was on the Red Sox gets traded to the Yankees. Go to Fenway Park, play the Yankees. Johnny Damon comes up and he's a Yankee. Everybody gives him a standing ovation. That's a divine moment. You're not the uniform. I remember you. I know you. You're the guy's son. and you can go home. It was just a game.

It's my daughter's name, Leela. It's a dance. It's a play. It's the play of the universe. It's not wrong. I'll be someone you can be mad at so you can learn how to forgive. I'll be somebody for you to love. It's just it's all an excuse to clash up against each other. And it's all uniforms and masks and play. And that's why I think comedy is so important. We laugh at it. Nothing essential to me is out there because it's the it's the same. We're all the same.

What you're describing is beautiful. I'm interested to hear how good are you at applying it to life. In particular, you you exist and have thrived in a in a hyper competitive and often quite toxic business, the entertainment business. How good are you at like uh and moonshine. moonshine. moonshine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you may have a side hustle I'm unaware of. That chatt did not alert me to. Yeah. There's a there's a there's a something doesn't line up. No, I I'm I I think it could line up, but I'm curious to hear how how well you think you line it up in in in your day-to-day life.

day-to-day life. day-to-day life. Yeah. to steal a line from Father Greg Bole, who if you don't know who Greg Bole is, you should I I couldn't recommend his books more. Um, he founded Homeboy Industries, a charity I really love. And I asked him the same question cuz he I mean, he'll make you weep talking about this sort of stuff. And I'm like, how how how do you keep yourself in that space? He's dealing with he works with gang members and people are literally dying and people are all these sorts of tragedies and he just goes breath breath by breath he's like with every damn breath and I try to remember that I asked Richard Roar something similar I was like are you cooked are you converted do you just see everybody as God and drag talk about RuPaul or is it effort and he's like it's both absolutely me we were talking about this at the last thing take a couple meals away take away my coffee.

I was telling you I I'll be on an airplane. I'm like, I hate this guy's head. If we're deplaning and the row behind me tries to leave before me, I'll stand and face them them them to shame them and then take my bag down while making eye contact with them and then deliberately leave slowly. slowly. slowly. So absolutely that's that's that's why it's so compelling to have a a a practice even as we're discovering it here together talking about it. It's like it it feels like that.

It feels like oh right you know what I mean? I'm not just holding the diamond in my pocket all the time. And Valerie, my wife, again, is just so good at at the everything belongs of it all, that it's not an error when I spend a week completely forgetting any of this stuff. And she's like, it's not a it's not a mistake. It's not a flaw. You weren't good when you remembered, and you weren't bad when you forgot because you're always the guy's son. You can't become what you already are.

And yeah, but yeah, I lose it all the time. Constantly, time. Constantly, time. Constantly, every day every day every day after this, I'm going to fight you. I don't like my odds. You're like 66 and 10 years younger than me. Ah, you'll be fine. Grab a bottle. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, break it. break it. break it. That was spoken like a guy from Boston. It was It was It was that was the most awesome thing I've ever said. Oh, but that's good. Ramdas says if you think you're enlighten I'm not I'm not saying that I don't think people are enlightened.

I think awareness is enlightened. Only awareness is enlightened. Sometimes it wakes up in me. Sometimes it wakes up in you. Deep sleep, deep meditation. You're tasting your true. That's why I feel so good. Right. So I'm not claiming that. But Ramdas said if you think you're enlightened, go spend a week with your parents. parents. parents. Fminus. Fminus. Fminus. Yeah. I've sat with my mother going, I am loving awareness. It doesn't She has my number, man. She'll break me out of that spell so fast. Actually, she'll put you into the spell.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. She'll pull me into it. When I visit home, it's like they give you a play like they give you a play that you thought closed in 1986. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, "Here's your script." And you're like, "Ha, pop, you're the best. How do you do it?" You know? It's brutal. So yeah, I don't I I don't think that's I think remembering and forgetting, you know, so much of the I'm not a physicist obviously, but so much is the wave, right?

right? right? And I think I think we're in that wave and I don't think it's an error. I love thinking about and people who if anybody's ever listened to my show before you've probably heard me say this a million times but I think it bears repeating like one of the original translations of the word that we now translate as mindfulness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The word in Pali which is the language in which the Buddha's teachings were written down is sati and it the original translation is remembering.

Yeah. It's like we we're in this and this is actually just really helpful to know while meditating. Um it's like the tide coming and going. Like you're going to get lost and then wake up again and in your meditation and in your life. And so you'll be hating the back of somebody's head and then you'll be loving awareness uh 30 seconds later. Okay. So I think you'll think this is interesting. The way that I've learned to meditate with Rupert is um they call it's it sounds a little pretentious but it's the pathless path.

So a progressive path would be let's focus let's focus our attention. The pathless path is sort of like recognizing that it's absurd to focus what you are. There's nothing that you aren't. It's hard to explain but it's the image that I use is resting self-abiding. It's like being out all day in the city and then you take a hot bath. You you just rest into it. He goes, he quotes somebody as saying, "Enlightenment belongs to the supremely lazy individual for for whom even blinking is too much effort." effort." effort." And I just go, you're always with me and everything I have is yours.

Where Raman Maharshi died. They said, 'D don't die. Don't leave us. And he said, 'Where could I go?' go?' go?' Where could I go? So, you're meditating. When we were meditating, I do get distracted. It just Yeah, that that too. It's It's just It's just I'm so [clears throat] unbearably lazy. It's the opposite. I I'm not I've done the the focusing, but like what eventually started to make sense for me was just was just was just like just [groaning] and it's it's it's hard to explain and I even as I'm saying it, I can't believe it works, but that's another self-abiding as as a meditation.

Well, this is a big debate. Um and I don't take a side in this debate. Um I uh have two friends uh the aforementioned Joseph Goldstein and then my other friend Sam Harris. They are old friends of each other and have been fighting about the pathless pass path or the versus the more directed uh progressive path. And um I actually recently had them on my podcast and it's the only time in the nearly 10 years of having a show where in the middle of it I put my head on the table.

Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I could imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I you know there's a place for both. Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. And again Rupert would say as long as if you feel yourself to be a separate person if you can't just rest in it then do a mantra do breath. It's like fine. like it's sort of whatever gets you there. there. there. And and there are different times in your meditation practice, different times in your life, different people for whom different things work.

And it's I mean, one of Joseph's little expressions is, you know, whatever works. You find what works for you. There isn't, I don't think, better or worse. There's what works. Yeah. I think you would be well verssed in this. It's a tricky thing. all of this wondering about better and worse. You know what I mean? It's like and then when you're there, you see that meditation being this like gratuitous yes and this the the more you try, the worse you do. This surrendering and this melting and and like we I'm not saying I'm above it.

I'm not saying it's bad, but it reminds me of the church I grew up in. It's like was it a literal virgin birth or sinless? Was it a literal 7-day creation? It's like we might have lost the plot a little bit. If Dan's head is on the table, maybe we took a wrong turn. And I'm not throwing shade on those guys cuz I do it, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just saying when you're there, there's a lot of laughing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of laugh.

It's a funny thing to try to be what you already are. It's very funny. Okay. You you you brought us to laughter. We did do for some of you were there. We had a little event before this event. Um, and so I'm going to ask you some of the same questions I've already asked you in the course of this evening, but um, it'll be new to these folks, the restless leg folks. Um, the RLF. RLF. RLF. RLS. Oh, restless leg folks. OKAY. YES. GOT IT. YEAH.

I'm slow. Um, this is the reason why I asked the questions. Um, laughter laughter laughter in your view, you've already kind of articulated it is kind of an expression of you didn't use these words, but and so I'll check in with you. Kind of an expression of the enlightened mind. Is that is that is that what your view? I I think it it can help you taste uh let's let's say this, you don't go along with it. When you're really laughing or when you're, you know, climbing a a mountain with no harness, you go to zero.

When you meditate, you go to zero. People dancing, people line cooks in a flow state, they go to zero. And so I'm not saying it's unique to laughing, but I do think one of the reasons we love deep sleep. Why would you love something you can't remember? But you love it. It's not for how you feel. You love it. You loved it. I'm looking forward to it. You love being zero cuz it was you. It was you with everything taken away that can be taken away except that which cannot be taken away.

So this isn't that exotic. You taste it every night. And when you laugh, I think you taste it. If you're, and I'm talking about my own experience, I can't imagine uh, you know, I'm not going to guess what my audience is going through, but one of the things that I experience when I'm really laughing is is void. Is just nothing. And it's such a It's like the eye of the needle. You can't you can't bring bring bring I that girl didn't say yes when I asked her out.

It can't go with you. It's It was just you. You were naked. felt good, right? And I I I think that's why a lot of the things we do, flight suits, you know what I mean? People just want a break from all of this, all of our troubles. And it feels really, really, really good. Yeah. It's in our language. We want to be blown away. Exactly. And I killed them. killed them. I killed them. Yeah. I killed killed killed killed or I died. If I bombed, I say I died.

But the the funny thing, it's not adversarial, and I promise not to go on too much about this, but if you're curious what it feels like to do standup, it's it's again holy and whole. We want to merge, right? We want to mer. It feels better meditating together. Live comedy feels better than watching it when we all are laughing at the same thing. It's like a drum circle. It's ancient. It's It's shamanic. And I'm not the fancy boy as much as I'd like to be. If I fall into it as well, we're all gone.

That's when it's good. It can be co-opted. And then the the guys like I'm the king and I'm the king. I'm the But the best ones I I say to audiences all the time, you're watching me, I'm watching you. Like you're grading me, I'm grading you. Like what do you think? You think you're off the hook? I'm nervous for you. And it's real. And then we start a [clears throat] I could talk about this forever, so you're you're going to have to moderate, but it's like it's hyperatunement.

hyperatunement. hyperatunement. It's it's it's it's sexual. I don't mean that in like a it doesn't have to do with literal sex, but it's the same thing as I'm sorry, but as a good lover, it really is. Oh, hairs on your neck when I Oh, right. I don't want to be too graphic. I'm just saying the bad sex you've had. Somebody was doing a bad open mic. You know what I mean? Like it was they weren't attuning. weren't attuning. weren't attuning. You could make it like more church friendly and just say a good conversation, a good date, attunement.

Somebody saw your face fall when you said my dad. Something happened to what's going on with your dad. Holy sh, that's amazing. We love that feeling when we can do it together and when you're I'm saying something and let's say it's crazy and we're all going with it. You're next to every Oh, it's it's amazing. None of us were there. were there. were there. Not if it's done properly. And that's why a heckler is so offensive to me cuz they're saying I resist this merging and I want to hinder their merging.

That's why a bad comedian is offensive to me because they're resisting merging with the crowd. They're not listening to the crowd. They're not attuning to the crowd. crowd. crowd. It's It's interrupting something far more special than a show. That's why a cell phone at a Broadway show is so effect. You snap me out of it. I I need to be away. And then I heard that, you know, whatever sound brings me back to all the stuff I'm trying to just a little break. Let's end on this.

You have a little um mantra that you that I really like and I'd love to hear you talk about what it means and how you apply it. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. I think you might have added a yes, but I like it. I didn't ask for notes. It is. Yes. Thank you. I've I've heard uh really good teachers saying if you can just say yes to what is that then that's all you need. Um, I don't know how true that is, but I found I wrote a book which I mentioned and and they sent copies of it, which is funny.

The book is where I wrote about Yes, thank you. And then they sent copies to all the reviewers and then I I looked through it and it was like three versions ago. As a writer, you can relate to this. It had notes to myself in it. It had a word I used to go meaning come back to this which is a silly word. Flappy just says flappy throughout the whole book. There were chapters that I cut in the book. It was just my first book deeply disappointing and you yeah you feel this like black cloud.

You're just sad then you're embarrassed. To me it's the feeling and then it's the embarrassment that you have the feeling. It's worse than the feeling. And I find that it really, we don't even have to spiritualize it or philosophize it. It just shortcircuits your brain if you say yes, thank you to it. it. it. And I mean almost instantly. In my in my experience, flight is delayed. Yes, thank you. It's so weird. That's why it works. everything works. everything works. everything attraction and aversion, right? So aversion is just charging it with all of this push like a like a a basketball underwater.

So you're giving it all the energy when you just Yeah. as if it's what you wanted. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And then you realize you're in an airport. airport. airport. you realize you'll be in an hour later and you know the brain wants me to be like and then you recognize somebody you haven't seen in 20 years. It doesn't have to be that. It can just be a clean breath and a recognition recognition recognition that you're alive and maybe you see the sun coming through the window and maybe you remember that people used to die in covered wagons on the journey you're about to take in 4 hours.

hours. hours. But that's mind stuff. But it can really be way less than that. Really not debating with the bad feeling. Just saying yes, thank you to it. It's that's been one of the most powerful things in my life for sure. I'm glad you brought it up cuz it's been really really helpful. So yeah, with the with the book I I I laughed cuz I was like it's in the book and I was like yes, thank you. And I mean it it just lifted. It just lifted.

And travel stuff. I travel a lot. So, I I do it a lot in traveling. in traveling. in traveling. You might think uh that what I'm about to say is a bit and I'm not [ __ ] with you at all as an affirmation uh junkie. Um I had high expectations for tonight and you exceeded them. You were amazing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, thank you, my friend.