The Food Addiction Crisis: Why Millions Can’t Stop Eating Sugar | Jen Unwin

Many people blame themselves for lacking Many people blame themselves for lacking willpower around sugar. willpower around sugar. willpower around sugar. Is this a willpower problem or is it an Is this a willpower problem or is it an Is this a willpower problem or is it an addiction one? It's it's so not a addiction one? It's it's so not a addiction one? It's it's so not a willpower problem just to say to people willpower problem just to say to people willpower problem just to say to people because yes, people feel so self-laming, because yes, people feel so self-laming, because yes, people feel so self-laming, don't they? And responsible for not don't they? And responsible for not don't they? And responsible for not being able to control what they eat. being able to control what they eat. being able to control what they eat. Yes, sugar has many effects in the Yes, sugar has many effects in the Yes, sugar has many effects in the brain, but one is to light up the reward brain, but one is to light up the reward brain, but one is to light up the reward centers like other drugs where other centers like other drugs where other centers like other drugs where other drugs like alcohol, um, nicotine, drugs like alcohol, um, nicotine, drugs like alcohol, um, nicotine, caffeine, they give us this sort of caffeine, they give us this sort of caffeine, they give us this sort of dopamine boost in in the brain dopamine boost in in the brain dopamine boost in in the brain >> which is the sort of reward, motivation, >> which is the sort of reward, motivation, >> which is the sort of reward, motivation, neurotransmitter. You're going to repeat neurotransmitter. You're going to repeat neurotransmitter. You're going to repeat the kind of things that give you that the kind of things that give you that the kind of things that give you that bit of a high and and sugar sugar will bit of a high and and sugar sugar will bit of a high and and sugar sugar will do that. So some of us are more do that. So some of us are more do that. So some of us are more vulnerable than others but because those vulnerable than others but because those vulnerable than others but because those are the primitive reward centers in the are the primitive reward centers in the are the primitive reward centers in the brain. Um it's not about logic really brain. Um it's not about logic really brain. Um it's not about logic really it's about a kind of primitive drive. So it's about a kind of primitive drive. So it's about a kind of primitive drive. So a willpower a willpower a willpower yes maybe to some extent how you set up yes maybe to some extent how you set up yes maybe to some extent how you set up your environment and other things we can your environment and other things we can your environment and other things we can talk about in terms of how you can talk about in terms of how you can talk about in terms of how you can improve this problem but once you've got improve this problem but once you've got improve this problem but once you've got into that addiction problem you're never into that addiction problem you're never into that addiction problem you're never going to solve it with willpower. No, it going to solve it with willpower. No, it going to solve it with willpower. No, it is much more about the effects of of is much more about the effects of of is much more about the effects of of sugar and refined carbohydrates, sugar and refined carbohydrates, sugar and refined carbohydrates, ultrarocessed foods on the brain itself, ultrarocessed foods on the brain itself, ultrarocessed foods on the brain itself, I would say. I would say. I would say. >> Yeah, it's kind of interesting, isn't >> Yeah, it's kind of interesting, isn't >> Yeah, it's kind of interesting, isn't it? This idea that sugar it? This idea that sugar it? This idea that sugar can be addictive. Yeah, I I guess people can be addictive. Yeah, I I guess people can be addictive. Yeah, I I guess people would say yes, there are addictive uh would say yes, there are addictive uh would say yes, there are addictive uh properties of sugary foods, but going properties of sugary foods, but going properties of sugary foods, but going that step further to say sugar addiction that step further to say sugar addiction that step further to say sugar addiction is a real problem or ultrarocessed food is a real problem or ultrarocessed food is a real problem or ultrarocessed food addiction is a real problem addiction is a real problem addiction is a real problem >> is something that is still pretty >> is something that is still pretty >> is something that is still pretty controversial. controversial. controversial. You have been a clinical psychologist You have been a clinical psychologist You have been a clinical psychologist for many many years. I think you for many many years. I think you for many many years. I think you identify as a food or sugar addict identify as a food or sugar addict identify as a food or sugar addict yourself. yourself. yourself. >> I do. >> I do. >> I do. >> In your view, as someone who's at the >> In your view, as someone who's at the >> In your view, as someone who's at the cutting edge of this, Jen, why do you cutting edge of this, Jen, why do you cutting edge of this, Jen, why do you think this idea that food can be think this idea that food can be think this idea that food can be addictive for some people addictive for some people addictive for some people >> is so controversial? >> is so controversial? >> is so controversial? >> Yeah, you're you're you're completely >> Yeah, you're you're you're completely >> Yeah, you're you're you're completely right. It it's it is still right. It it's it is still right. It it's it is still controversial. And people do say, which controversial. And people do say, which controversial. And people do say, which kind of makes sense, how can food be kind of makes sense, how can food be kind of makes sense, how can food be addictive? because we need to eat. So it addictive? because we need to eat. So it addictive? because we need to eat. So it make it makes no sense that something we make it makes no sense that something we make it makes no sense that something we have to have can be addictive. So for have to have can be addictive. So for have to have can be addictive. So for example, people will say you know well example, people will say you know well example, people will say you know well alcohol you don't you don't need we alcohol you don't you don't need we alcohol you don't you don't need we don't need alcohol to survive and don't need alcohol to survive and don't need alcohol to survive and alcohol is that substance which we know alcohol is that substance which we know alcohol is that substance which we know does have those effects in in the brain does have those effects in in the brain does have those effects in in the brain whereas food we we need it to to whereas food we we need it to to whereas food we we need it to to survive. My kind of response to that is survive. My kind of response to that is survive. My kind of response to that is well it's not all food. So we say food well it's not all food. So we say food well it's not all food. So we say food addiction but we can perhaps go into the addiction but we can perhaps go into the addiction but we can perhaps go into the nuance of what what we should call this nuance of what what we should call this nuance of what what we should call this disorder. Some people say sugar disorder. Some people say sugar disorder. Some people say sugar addiction because there is a lot of addiction because there is a lot of addiction because there is a lot of evidence now from brain studies that of evidence now from brain studies that of evidence now from brain studies that of those effects I was saying about sugar those effects I was saying about sugar those effects I was saying about sugar sort of lighting up the reward centers. sort of lighting up the reward centers. sort of lighting up the reward centers. So sugar we know is is a substance that So sugar we know is is a substance that So sugar we know is is a substance that kind of lights up the brain. Refined kind of lights up the brain. Refined kind of lights up the brain. Refined carbohydrates because they very soon carbohydrates because they very soon carbohydrates because they very soon become sugar you know they they can they become sugar you know they they can they become sugar you know they they can they can have the same effect. um we don't can have the same effect. um we don't can have the same effect. um we don't have to eat those foods. So obviously we have to eat those foods. So obviously we have to eat those foods. So obviously we have to eat to survive and we need have to eat to survive and we need have to eat to survive and we need nutrient-dense food to feed the body and nutrient-dense food to feed the body and nutrient-dense food to feed the body and brain. We don't have to eat sugar and we brain. We don't have to eat sugar and we brain. We don't have to eat sugar and we certainly don't have to eat certainly don't have to eat certainly don't have to eat ultrarocessed foods that have been sort ultrarocessed foods that have been sort ultrarocessed foods that have been sort of manufactured in a factory and of manufactured in a factory and of manufactured in a factory and literally designed literally designed literally designed to hook users. The writing was on the to hook users. The writing was on the to hook users. The writing was on the wall for the cigarette companies. Those wall for the cigarette companies. Those wall for the cigarette companies. Those companies bought a lot of the big food companies bought a lot of the big food companies bought a lot of the big food companies and brought their marketing companies and brought their marketing companies and brought their marketing and their sort of science and to the and their sort of science and to the and their sort of science and to the formulation of those foods and literally formulation of those foods and literally formulation of those foods and literally sort of have people in brain scanners sort of have people in brain scanners sort of have people in brain scanners while they while they testing out their while they while they testing out their while they while they testing out their formulations to see what lights up the formulations to see what lights up the formulations to see what lights up the brain more. So they kind of literally brain more. So they kind of literally brain more. So they kind of literally designing these foods to get us hooked. designing these foods to get us hooked. designing these foods to get us hooked. There's that fantastic book by Michael There's that fantastic book by Michael There's that fantastic book by Michael Moss called Hooked which sort of exposes Moss called Hooked which sort of exposes Moss called Hooked which sort of exposes this this whole kind of industry. So, this this whole kind of industry. So, this this whole kind of industry. So, you know, we probably shouldn't call you know, we probably shouldn't call you know, we probably shouldn't call some of those things food. So, that some of those things food. So, that some of those things food. So, that would be be my argument really is that would be be my argument really is that would be be my argument really is that certain food type substances have the certain food type substances have the certain food type substances have the same effects on the brain and and can same effects on the brain and and can same effects on the brain and and can become addictive for for some people. become addictive for for some people. become addictive for for some people. So, we have to be it I think it really So, we have to be it I think it really So, we have to be it I think it really helps to think of the whole thing like helps to think of the whole thing like helps to think of the whole thing like alcohol. So we know that most of us as alcohol. So we know that most of us as alcohol. So we know that most of us as adults get exposed to alcohol. adults get exposed to alcohol. adults get exposed to alcohol. >> Uh some people really like it. They have >> Uh some people really like it. They have >> Uh some people really like it. They have uh maybe too much maybe harmful uses but uh maybe too much maybe harmful uses but uh maybe too much maybe harmful uses but then some people will develop a a real then some people will develop a a real then some people will develop a a real problem with their relationship with problem with their relationship with problem with their relationship with alcohol will become a substance use alcohol will become a substance use alcohol will become a substance use disorder. I see it is exactly the same disorder. I see it is exactly the same disorder. I see it is exactly the same with these kinds of foods that some of with these kinds of foods that some of with these kinds of foods that some of us have this for whatever reason genetic us have this for whatever reason genetic us have this for whatever reason genetic trauma can be a factor you know just trauma can be a factor you know just trauma can be a factor you know just overexposure overexposure overexposure when we're very young um we develop that when we're very young um we develop that when we're very young um we develop that substance use disorder which is very substance use disorder which is very substance use disorder which is very different from people saying different from people saying different from people saying sort of blily I'm you know oh I'm sort of blily I'm you know oh I'm sort of blily I'm you know oh I'm addicted to ice cream because they they addicted to ice cream because they they addicted to ice cream because they they love it and they have it maybe a couple love it and they have it maybe a couple love it and they have it maybe a couple of times a week. It's very different a of times a week. It's very different a of times a week. It's very different a person with a natural food use disorder, person with a natural food use disorder, person with a natural food use disorder, the extent of the impact on their lives, the extent of the impact on their lives, the extent of the impact on their lives, for example. So although it's a for example. So although it's a for example. So although it's a continuum, you've got people who you continuum, you've got people who you continuum, you've got people who you wouldn't classify as having food wouldn't classify as having food wouldn't classify as having food addiction as such and and people that addiction as such and and people that addiction as such and and people that you really would and those are the sort you really would and those are the sort you really would and those are the sort of people that that I identify with and of people that that I identify with and of people that that I identify with and I'm trying to I'm trying to I'm trying to >> look into the the research and look into >> look into the the research and look into >> look into the the research and look into the sort of treatment programs that can the sort of treatment programs that can the sort of treatment programs that can can help people. But I think using that can help people. But I think using that can help people. But I think using that comparator is a really good because comparator is a really good because comparator is a really good because everybody understands all the public everybody understands all the public everybody understands all the public understand that don't they? They understand that don't they? They understand that don't they? They understand that some people have lost understand that some people have lost understand that some people have lost control of their relationship with control of their relationship with control of their relationship with alcohol and they need to abstain. And so alcohol and they need to abstain. And so alcohol and they need to abstain. And so it's a very similar picture in my view. it's a very similar picture in my view. it's a very similar picture in my view. But it is still it is still But it is still it is still But it is still it is still controversial and obviously there are controversial and obviously there are controversial and obviously there are people who are very anti the idea people who are very anti the idea people who are very anti the idea particularly the processed food particularly the processed food particularly the processed food industry. industry. industry. >> Yeah. We we'll talk later perhaps about >> Yeah. We we'll talk later perhaps about >> Yeah. We we'll talk later perhaps about the merits of getting this established the merits of getting this established the merits of getting this established formally as a diagnostic category, you formally as a diagnostic category, you formally as a diagnostic category, you know, food addiction or sugar addiction. know, food addiction or sugar addiction. know, food addiction or sugar addiction. Okay. Okay. Okay. >> Mhm. My hope for this conversation is >> Mhm. My hope for this conversation is >> Mhm. My hope for this conversation is that it helps people understand that it helps people understand that it helps people understand if they may have a problem with food. if they may have a problem with food. if they may have a problem with food. They may already know that anyway, but They may already know that anyway, but They may already know that anyway, but it may help them see in a different it may help them see in a different it may help them see in a different light. light. light. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And then it's also really practical to >> And then it's also really practical to >> And then it's also really practical to help them actually start to do something help them actually start to do something help them actually start to do something about it. Because I think about it. Because I think about it. Because I think >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> one thing that I think we both seen lots >> one thing that I think we both seen lots >> one thing that I think we both seen lots of is this idea that of is this idea that of is this idea that knowledge knowledge knowledge doesn't always convert to action. People doesn't always convert to action. People doesn't always convert to action. People can read books or listen to podcasts can read books or listen to podcasts can read books or listen to podcasts about the damages of excess sugar about the damages of excess sugar about the damages of excess sugar intake, right? They can see about its intake, right? They can see about its intake, right? They can see about its relationship with type 2 diabetes or relationship with type 2 diabetes or relationship with type 2 diabetes or obesity or your teeth or whatever it obesity or your teeth or whatever it obesity or your teeth or whatever it might be. might be. might be. >> And they can even go on these two, three >> And they can even go on these two, three >> And they can even go on these two, three week elimination week elimination week elimination protocols or diets and go through the protocols or diets and go through the protocols or diets and go through the withdrawal and go, "Yeah, you know what? withdrawal and go, "Yeah, you know what? withdrawal and go, "Yeah, you know what? I I've got so much energy. My skin's I I've got so much energy. My skin's I I've got so much energy. My skin's clearer. Um, I can concentrate for clearer. Um, I can concentrate for clearer. Um, I can concentrate for longer. My sleep's better." Yet some longer. My sleep's better." Yet some longer. My sleep's better." Yet some people that's not enough. They go back people that's not enough. They go back people that's not enough. They go back and as you said right at the start, and as you said right at the start, and as you said right at the start, >> I think one of the problems is that >> I think one of the problems is that >> I think one of the problems is that people then feel guilt and shame because people then feel guilt and shame because people then feel guilt and shame because Susan down the road Susan down the road Susan down the road can have a sweet treat can have a sweet treat can have a sweet treat >> at Christmas once a year >> at Christmas once a year >> at Christmas once a year >> and doesn't think about it for the rest >> and doesn't think about it for the rest >> and doesn't think about it for the rest of the year. Whereas other people of the year. Whereas other people of the year. Whereas other people >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> they just have it once. And I think you >> they just have it once. And I think you >> they just have it once. And I think you have a quote, one is too many, a have a quote, one is too many, a have a quote, one is too many, a thousand is never enough. I love that thousand is never enough. I love that thousand is never enough. I love that quote because it just anybody who's quote because it just anybody who's quote because it just anybody who's listening who has a food addiction listening who has a food addiction listening who has a food addiction problem will recognize that that it's problem will recognize that that it's problem will recognize that that it's the first biscuit or the first spoon of the first biscuit or the first spoon of the first biscuit or the first spoon of ice cream that sets it sets it off and ice cream that sets it sets it off and ice cream that sets it sets it off and then you can't stop until you've had then you can't stop until you've had then you can't stop until you've had you know way too way too much and even you know way too way too much and even you know way too way too much and even that doesn't feel like enough. that doesn't feel like enough. that doesn't feel like enough. >> Yeah. What was the Pringles marketing >> Yeah. What was the Pringles marketing >> Yeah. What was the Pringles marketing campaign a few years ago? You know once campaign a few years ago? You know once campaign a few years ago? You know once you pop you can't stop now. you pop you can't stop now. you pop you can't stop now. >> They literally use those Yeah. marketing >> They literally use those Yeah. marketing >> They literally use those Yeah. marketing terms. And what I think a lot of people terms. And what I think a lot of people terms. And what I think a lot of people don't understand is that it sounds like don't understand is that it sounds like don't understand is that it sounds like a catchy marketing slogan. You know, a catchy marketing slogan. You know, a catchy marketing slogan. You know, nothing wrong there. They're just trying nothing wrong there. They're just trying nothing wrong there. They're just trying to market their products. to market their products. to market their products. >> But underpinning that is something >> But underpinning that is something >> But underpinning that is something really quite dangerous really quite dangerous really quite dangerous >> because a lot of people can't stop and >> because a lot of people can't stop and >> because a lot of people can't stop and they don't realize that that food has they don't realize that that food has they don't realize that that food has been engineered to hit the bliss point been engineered to hit the bliss point been engineered to hit the bliss point in your brain so that if you are in your brain so that if you are in your brain so that if you are predisposed that way, you actually predisposed that way, you actually predisposed that way, you actually cannot cannot cannot Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So, let's just get some perspective >> So, let's just get some perspective >> So, let's just get some perspective here. Okay. We're we're obviously living here. Okay. We're we're obviously living here. Okay. We're we're obviously living in, you know, a very toxic food in, you know, a very toxic food in, you know, a very toxic food environment in the 21st century, environment in the 21st century, environment in the 21st century, depending on where you live in the depending on where you live in the depending on where you live in the world, but I think in most countries world, but I think in most countries world, but I think in most countries now, now, now, >> most countries, >> most countries, >> most countries, >> it's become a very problematic food >> it's become a very problematic food >> it's become a very problematic food environment. environment. environment. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> If we go back to our huntergatherer >> If we go back to our huntergatherer >> If we go back to our huntergatherer ancestors, ancestors, ancestors, do you think that sugar addiction do you think that sugar addiction do you think that sugar addiction existed back then? existed back then? existed back then? That's such a great question and I love That's such a great question and I love That's such a great question and I love the evolutionary lens. I think it I the evolutionary lens. I think it I the evolutionary lens. I think it I think it's brilliant and I think it think it's brilliant and I think it think it's brilliant and I think it really helps us to sort of uh really helps us to sort of uh really helps us to sort of uh understand. So I I think understand. So I I think understand. So I I think the reward center evolved in the in the the reward center evolved in the in the the reward center evolved in the in the brain to keep us alive essentially, brain to keep us alive essentially, brain to keep us alive essentially, didn't it? And one of the things that we didn't it? And one of the things that we didn't it? And one of the things that we needed to do to stay alive was to eat as needed to do to stay alive was to eat as needed to do to stay alive was to eat as much as we could when it was available. much as we could when it was available. much as we could when it was available. Um because there would be times when it Um because there would be times when it Um because there would be times when it wasn't available and particularly in the wasn't available and particularly in the wasn't available and particularly in the winter. So this is I think it's kind of winter. So this is I think it's kind of winter. So this is I think it's kind of you know widely you know widely you know widely uh talked about now isn't it that you uh talked about now isn't it that you uh talked about now isn't it that you know in the autumn we needed to really know in the autumn we needed to really know in the autumn we needed to really eat all the fruit that we could find and eat all the fruit that we could find and eat all the fruit that we could find and it wouldn't be like certainly in this it wouldn't be like certainly in this it wouldn't be like certainly in this country it wasn't like we have now there country it wasn't like we have now there country it wasn't like we have now there wasn't banana trees and uh um what else wasn't banana trees and uh um what else wasn't banana trees and uh um what else is a sugary mango trees and things like is a sugary mango trees and things like is a sugary mango trees and things like things we can get now there would be things we can get now there would be things we can get now there would be little sour berries but you know as many little sour berries but you know as many little sour berries but you know as many as we could eat would would help us to as we could eat would would help us to as we could eat would would help us to put on weight and the same with nuts you put on weight and the same with nuts you put on weight and the same with nuts you know, they were there in the autumn and know, they were there in the autumn and know, they were there in the autumn and so we would get those. Um, if if we were so we would get those. Um, if if we were so we would get those. Um, if if we were really driven, and I probably would have really driven, and I probably would have really driven, and I probably would have been one of these people, we might been one of these people, we might been one of these people, we might shimmy up a tree and get some honey out shimmy up a tree and get some honey out shimmy up a tree and get some honey out of a tree from the bees. But we'd have of a tree from the bees. But we'd have of a tree from the bees. But we'd have to be really driven to do that because to be really driven to do that because to be really driven to do that because we're going to get stung probably and, we're going to get stung probably and, we're going to get stung probably and, you know, maybe fall out of the tree. you know, maybe fall out of the tree. you know, maybe fall out of the tree. So, we had to be really motivated to to So, we had to be really motivated to to So, we had to be really motivated to to go and get that food. And that was how go and get that food. And that was how go and get that food. And that was how we survived. It wasn't available all we survived. It wasn't available all we survived. It wasn't available all year round. So, we didn't even have eggs year round. So, we didn't even have eggs year round. So, we didn't even have eggs all year round. We would have had those. all year round. We would have had those. all year round. We would have had those. See, everything was seasonal. See, everything was seasonal. See, everything was seasonal. And um there's lots of evidence, isn't And um there's lots of evidence, isn't And um there's lots of evidence, isn't there, that that wherever humans went, there, that that wherever humans went, there, that that wherever humans went, they um basically led to the extinction they um basically led to the extinction they um basically led to the extinction of all the sort of fatty herbivores of all the sort of fatty herbivores of all the sort of fatty herbivores because that was what we like what we because that was what we like what we because that was what we like what we like to eat um meat and and and fat. So, like to eat um meat and and and fat. So, like to eat um meat and and and fat. So, um I I think there wasn't there wouldn't um I I think there wasn't there wouldn't um I I think there wasn't there wouldn't have been people who had a food have been people who had a food have been people who had a food addiction cuz the food wasn't the addiction cuz the food wasn't the addiction cuz the food wasn't the environment didn't support that environment didn't support that environment didn't support that behavior. You couldn't just go and and behavior. You couldn't just go and and behavior. You couldn't just go and and get stuff. Whereas now it's all year get stuff. Whereas now it's all year get stuff. Whereas now it's all year round. It's everywhere. You don't even round. It's everywhere. You don't even round. It's everywhere. You don't even have to leave the sofa. have to leave the sofa. have to leave the sofa. >> That's the key problem, isn't it? Yeah. >> That's the key problem, isn't it? Yeah. >> That's the key problem, isn't it? Yeah. >> I think because on several occasions >> I think because on several occasions >> I think because on several occasions I've spoken to people who have spent I've spoken to people who have spent I've spoken to people who have spent time and lived with hunter gatherers. time and lived with hunter gatherers. time and lived with hunter gatherers. >> Yeah. If I think last time I spoke to >> Yeah. If I think last time I spoke to >> Yeah. If I think last time I spoke to Daniel Lieberman, Professor Daniel Daniel Lieberman, Professor Daniel Daniel Lieberman, Professor Daniel Lieberman from Harvard, um I think he Lieberman from Harvard, um I think he Lieberman from Harvard, um I think he told me that he has been out on a hunt told me that he has been out on a hunt told me that he has been out on a hunt with the Hata tribe who are with the Hata tribe who are with the Hata tribe who are >> hunt together tribe, you know, >> hunt together tribe, you know, >> hunt together tribe, you know, >> amazing >> amazing >> amazing >> still living I think in Tanzania in the >> still living I think in Tanzania in the >> still living I think in Tanzania in the way that they've always lived to to you way that they've always lived to to you way that they've always lived to to you know mostly know mostly know mostly >> and I think he's been out with tribesmen >> and I think he's been out with tribesmen >> and I think he's been out with tribesmen when they find honey or they've had a when they find honey or they've had a when they find honey or they've had a long day out. didn't manage to capture long day out. didn't manage to capture long day out. didn't manage to capture the whatever animal they were hunting the whatever animal they were hunting the whatever animal they were hunting >> that they would literally gorge on >> that they would literally gorge on >> that they would literally gorge on honey. honey. honey. >> But they they found the honey, they got >> But they they found the honey, they got >> But they they found the honey, they got it, and they would literally almost like it, and they would literally almost like it, and they would literally almost like drink it. drink it. drink it. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And so there's a couple of things for me >> And so there's a couple of things for me >> And so there's a couple of things for me that come up there, which is people say, that come up there, which is people say, that come up there, which is people say, "Oh, I've got a sweet tooth." You know, "Oh, I've got a sweet tooth." You know, "Oh, I've got a sweet tooth." You know, this is and well, I kind of think we've this is and well, I kind of think we've this is and well, I kind of think we've all got a sweet tooth. all got a sweet tooth. all got a sweet tooth. >> You know, we evolved to have it. >> You know, we evolved to have it. >> You know, we evolved to have it. >> Exactly. It it served us very very well >> Exactly. It it served us very very well >> Exactly. It it served us very very well in a different food environment in a different food environment in a different food environment >> in this food environment >> in this food environment >> in this food environment >> and our brains haven't you know that's >> and our brains haven't you know that's >> and our brains haven't you know that's such a small space of time from that such a small space of time from that such a small space of time from that food environment to this in terms of food environment to this in terms of food environment to this in terms of evolution our brains are evolution our brains are evolution our brains are >> just the same essentially >> just the same essentially >> just the same essentially >> but but going back to guilt shame lack >> but but going back to guilt shame lack >> but but going back to guilt shame lack of willpower of willpower of willpower >> I think it's pretty clear that if you >> I think it's pretty clear that if you >> I think it's pretty clear that if you took those tribesmen and women took those tribesmen and women took those tribesmen and women >> and put them in a modern western city >> and put them in a modern western city >> and put them in a modern western city in 6 months you'd probably see the same in 6 months you'd probably see the same in 6 months you'd probably see the same patterns, patterns, patterns, >> right? It's I don't think they have any >> right? It's I don't think they have any >> right? It's I don't think they have any better ability to not take the sugar better ability to not take the sugar better ability to not take the sugar when it's there. And the reason I share when it's there. And the reason I share when it's there. And the reason I share that is because I know from chat to that is because I know from chat to that is because I know from chat to patients over the years, patients over the years, patients over the years, >> I know how many people beat themselves >> I know how many people beat themselves >> I know how many people beat themselves up on this. They think that they're the up on this. They think that they're the up on this. They think that they're the failure. There's something wrong with failure. There's something wrong with failure. There's something wrong with them. It's like actually no. It's this them. It's like actually no. It's this them. It's like actually no. It's this food environment food environment food environment >> that's proving really problematic for >> that's proving really problematic for >> that's proving really problematic for you. We never needed an off switch for you. We never needed an off switch for you. We never needed an off switch for food. We always just needed an on food. We always just needed an on food. We always just needed an on switch, motivated to go get. And I would switch, motivated to go get. And I would switch, motivated to go get. And I would have been one of those that was a that have been one of those that was a that have been one of those that was a that was a go-getter for food. That's why I'm was a go-getter for food. That's why I'm was a go-getter for food. That's why I'm here because my ancestors here because my ancestors here because my ancestors were good were good at that. They were were good were good at that. They were were good were good at that. They were driven to survive. And so that's that's driven to survive. And so that's that's driven to survive. And so that's that's why I'm here today. So we we never why I'm here today. So we we never why I'm here today. So we we never needed an off switch. And now we haven't needed an off switch. And now we haven't needed an off switch. And now we haven't got an off switch. And food is is got an off switch. And food is is got an off switch. And food is is everywhere. I mean, I'm amazed that everywhere. I mean, I'm amazed that everywhere. I mean, I'm amazed that anybody's a normal weight to be honest anybody's a normal weight to be honest anybody's a normal weight to be honest or anybody isn't everybody isn't type or anybody isn't everybody isn't type or anybody isn't everybody isn't type two diabetic because um but yeah, two diabetic because um but yeah, two diabetic because um but yeah, because of the environment that that we because of the environment that that we because of the environment that that we live in and and also the just the live in and and also the just the live in and and also the just the culture around food, you know, now culture around food, you know, now culture around food, you know, now today. today. today. >> Yeah, it's kind of interesting that >> Yeah, it's kind of interesting that >> Yeah, it's kind of interesting that you're surprised that anyone is of a you're surprised that anyone is of a you're surprised that anyone is of a normal weight these days or or what is normal weight these days or or what is normal weight these days or or what is considered in a verse comes a normal considered in a verse comes a normal considered in a verse comes a normal weight. I think you have to try quite weight. I think you have to try quite weight. I think you have to try quite hard to be healthy. hard to be healthy. hard to be healthy. >> Yeah. And if we look at the stats, it's >> Yeah. And if we look at the stats, it's >> Yeah. And if we look at the stats, it's unusual to be of a normal weight unusual to be of a normal weight unusual to be of a normal weight >> in many countries now, certainly in >> in many countries now, certainly in >> in many countries now, certainly in America and here in the UK, right? America and here in the UK, right? America and here in the UK, right? >> So the norm is to be overweight or obese >> So the norm is to be overweight or obese >> So the norm is to be overweight or obese >> and metabolically >> and metabolically >> and metabolically >> and metabolically unwell. When when your >> and metabolically unwell. When when your >> and metabolically unwell. When when your husband uh David came on a few months husband uh David came on a few months husband uh David came on a few months ago, ago, ago, >> we were chatting in detail about this. M >> we were chatting in detail about this. M >> we were chatting in detail about this. M I think you guys are the first husband I think you guys are the first husband I think you guys are the first husband and wife couple to have appeared on the and wife couple to have appeared on the and wife couple to have appeared on the show in uh in different conversation not show in uh in different conversation not show in uh in different conversation not together about relationship advice together about relationship advice together about relationship advice although maybe we could do that in some although maybe we could do that in some although maybe we could do that in some point in the future maybe point in the future maybe point in the future maybe >> um >> um >> um >> but >> but >> but this idea that it's not normal anymore I this idea that it's not normal anymore I this idea that it's not normal anymore I think is something that we can all think is something that we can all think is something that we can all reflect on and what does that say reflect on and what does that say reflect on and what does that say >> is there a risk though that this kind of >> is there a risk though that this kind of >> is there a risk though that this kind of message is disempowering and what I mean message is disempowering and what I mean message is disempowering and what I mean by that is by that is by that is >> if we're just victims >> if we're just victims >> if we're just victims to the food environment. I guess some to the food environment. I guess some to the food environment. I guess some people might make the case, Jen, that people might make the case, Jen, that people might make the case, Jen, that >> well, there's nothing we can do until >> well, there's nothing we can do until >> well, there's nothing we can do until the food environment changes. the food environment changes. the food environment changes. >> I'm just playing devil's advocate there. >> I'm just playing devil's advocate there. >> I'm just playing devil's advocate there. >> Yeah. No, I understand. Or people people >> Yeah. No, I understand. Or people people >> Yeah. No, I understand. Or people people can feel so hopeless because that's the can feel so hopeless because that's the can feel so hopeless because that's the environment we live in. environment we live in. environment we live in. >> And so give us some hope. >> And so give us some hope. >> And so give us some hope. >> It's difficult. Yeah, it's difficult. >> It's difficult. Yeah, it's difficult. >> It's difficult. Yeah, it's difficult. So, so, so the hope of course is and So, so, so the hope of course is and So, so, so the hope of course is and it's it's exactly your your message of it's it's exactly your your message of it's it's exactly your your message of this this podcast is that we can make this this podcast is that we can make this this podcast is that we can make small changes to our own environments. small changes to our own environments. small changes to our own environments. We can have control over the things that We can have control over the things that We can have control over the things that we do on a daily basis um that will we do on a daily basis um that will we do on a daily basis um that will really impact our metabolic health, but really impact our metabolic health, but really impact our metabolic health, but also cravings and the way that we also cravings and the way that we also cravings and the way that we respond to food. So it is supremely respond to food. So it is supremely respond to food. So it is supremely possible to become uh a food addict in possible to become uh a food addict in possible to become uh a food addict in in recovery. It it just takes some in recovery. It it just takes some in recovery. It it just takes some effort. So I think another thing that I effort. So I think another thing that I effort. So I think another thing that I like to say is it's not your fault that like to say is it's not your fault that like to say is it's not your fault that you have these struggles. But once you you have these struggles. But once you you have these struggles. But once you know the information that we're talking know the information that we're talking know the information that we're talking about today, then it become it can about today, then it become it can about today, then it become it can become your responsibility to to do become your responsibility to to do become your responsibility to to do something different. something different. something different. >> Well well then it almost has to become >> Well well then it almost has to become >> Well well then it almost has to become your responsibility because there's no your responsibility because there's no your responsibility because there's no other option. Yeah, that's why I call other option. Yeah, that's why I call other option. Yeah, that's why I call the book fork in the road because there the book fork in the road because there the book fork in the road because there there are choices. We all have choices there are choices. We all have choices there are choices. We all have choices every day, you know, multiple times a every day, you know, multiple times a every day, you know, multiple times a day about which path we're choosing. day about which path we're choosing. day about which path we're choosing. Whether we're choosing health and Whether we're choosing health and Whether we're choosing health and well-being or whether we're choosing a well-being or whether we're choosing a well-being or whether we're choosing a path which is going to lead us into path which is going to lead us into path which is going to lead us into worse mental well-being, worse worse worse mental well-being, worse worse worse mental well-being, worse worse physical health and and you know those physical health and and you know those physical health and and you know those those choice points are you know it can those choice points are you know it can those choice points are you know it can be difficult to always make the right be difficult to always make the right be difficult to always make the right choice. And I'm not saying you know any choice. And I'm not saying you know any choice. And I'm not saying you know any of us are perfect at that. you know, we of us are perfect at that. you know, we of us are perfect at that. you know, we all maybe take the the wrong step from all maybe take the the wrong step from all maybe take the the wrong step from time to time, but I think if we've got time to time, but I think if we've got time to time, but I think if we've got that, it's almost like having a a that, it's almost like having a a that, it's almost like having a a lighthouse that you're you're aiming for lighthouse that you're you're aiming for lighthouse that you're you're aiming for that even if you take a wrong step, you that even if you take a wrong step, you that even if you take a wrong step, you can still sort of re, you know, rroot can still sort of re, you know, rroot can still sort of re, you know, rroot and and be following, you know, it's and and be following, you know, it's and and be following, you know, it's important that people are thinking about important that people are thinking about important that people are thinking about well, what do they, you know, when do well, what do they, you know, when do well, what do they, you know, when do they feel at their best? What what's they feel at their best? What what's they feel at their best? What what's really important to them? So, we were really important to them? So, we were really important to them? So, we were talking before we came on about family talking before we came on about family talking before we came on about family and that that's that's so important. and that that's that's so important. and that that's that's so important. >> And I think if you can attach to those >> And I think if you can attach to those >> And I think if you can attach to those sorts of aims and and goals in the sorts of aims and and goals in the sorts of aims and and goals in the moment, it can help you to make moment, it can help you to make moment, it can help you to make perhaps what seems the more difficult perhaps what seems the more difficult perhaps what seems the more difficult choice, but actually is the choice choice, but actually is the choice choice, but actually is the choice that's going to lead you keep you well, that's going to lead you keep you well, that's going to lead you keep you well, lead you towards being able to lead you towards being able to lead you towards being able to >> live the life that you, you know, you >> live the life that you, you know, you >> live the life that you, you know, you were kind of born to live and not be were kind of born to live and not be were kind of born to live and not be living. living. living. I've got a lovely clip which I often use I've got a lovely clip which I often use I've got a lovely clip which I often use in my lectures of one of the people that in my lectures of one of the people that in my lectures of one of the people that took part in our treatment study and I took part in our treatment study and I took part in our treatment study and I we asked him just we were doing a video we asked him just we were doing a video we asked him just we were doing a video and we said you know what what's it like and we said you know what what's it like and we said you know what what's it like to have food addiction? He just said to have food addiction? He just said to have food addiction? He just said it's like it's it's it's hell. You have it's like it's it's it's hell. You have it's like it's it's it's hell. You have no hope. You're you're on a roller no hope. You're you're on a roller no hope. You're you're on a roller coaster that you feel you just don't see coaster that you feel you just don't see coaster that you feel you just don't see any way off. You know, you feel you any way off. You know, you feel you any way off. You know, you feel you can't control your own behavior and feel can't control your own behavior and feel can't control your own behavior and feel totally hopeless about that. That's totally hopeless about that. That's totally hopeless about that. That's that's no way that's no way to live. And that's no way that's no way to live. And that's no way that's no way to live. And um I know because I've been there myself um I know because I've been there myself um I know because I've been there myself as well that that's it that's that's a as well that that's it that's that's a as well that that's it that's that's a place where you're not connecting with place where you're not connecting with place where you're not connecting with family, you're not doing your best at family, you're not doing your best at family, you're not doing your best at work, you're not looking after yourself. work, you're not looking after yourself. work, you're not looking after yourself. So So So >> yeah, as part of my research for this >> yeah, as part of my research for this >> yeah, as part of my research for this conversation, I watched your conversation, I watched your conversation, I watched your conversation with Ken Bry on his YouTube conversation with Ken Bry on his YouTube conversation with Ken Bry on his YouTube channel. And it's a fascinating channel. And it's a fascinating channel. And it's a fascinating conversation. What was even more conversation. What was even more conversation. What was even more fascinating was reading the comments fascinating was reading the comments fascinating was reading the comments >> under that interview. And I wrote a few >> under that interview. And I wrote a few >> under that interview. And I wrote a few down because when people down because when people down because when people >> challenge this idea that it's an >> challenge this idea that it's an >> challenge this idea that it's an addiction and I get I understand and and addiction and I get I understand and and addiction and I get I understand and and sometimes I think these are academic sometimes I think these are academic sometimes I think these are academic things because ultimately things because ultimately things because ultimately what does an individual want? If an what does an individual want? If an what does an individual want? If an individual is consuming too much food, individual is consuming too much food, individual is consuming too much food, whether that be sugar, ultrarocessed whether that be sugar, ultrarocessed whether that be sugar, ultrarocessed foods or whatever else in a way that's foods or whatever else in a way that's foods or whatever else in a way that's harming their physical health and mental harming their physical health and mental harming their physical health and mental well-being, well-being, well-being, >> they want help to reduce stroke, stop >> they want help to reduce stroke, stop >> they want help to reduce stroke, stop that. Mhm. that. Mhm. that. Mhm. >> Whether we as professionals call it an >> Whether we as professionals call it an >> Whether we as professionals call it an addiction or not, ultimately for that addiction or not, ultimately for that addiction or not, ultimately for that individual, they just want help, right? individual, they just want help, right? individual, they just want help, right? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And some of the comments underneath that >> And some of the comments underneath that >> And some of the comments underneath that video were were these, right? One one video were were these, right? One one video were were these, right? One one person said, "I'm addicted to sugar. I person said, "I'm addicted to sugar. I person said, "I'm addicted to sugar. I gave up cigarettes so easy, never got gave up cigarettes so easy, never got gave up cigarettes so easy, never got back to it, but man, that sugar is back to it, but man, that sugar is back to it, but man, that sugar is really my drug. I can't stop it." really my drug. I can't stop it." really my drug. I can't stop it." Someone else Jen said, "I used to lie to Someone else Jen said, "I used to lie to Someone else Jen said, "I used to lie to my wife, go out and secretly buy ice my wife, go out and secretly buy ice my wife, go out and secretly buy ice cream with cash, cream with cash, cream with cash, >> so she couldn't track it." >> so she couldn't track it." >> so she couldn't track it." >> Someone else said, "Sugar is harder for >> Someone else said, "Sugar is harder for >> Someone else said, "Sugar is harder for me to quit than crack or meth was. me to quit than crack or meth was. me to quit than crack or meth was. >> I was a user of them for 11 years." If >> I was a user of them for 11 years." If >> I was a user of them for 11 years." If you heard those three comments you heard those three comments you heard those three comments about some other drug, about some other drug, about some other drug, you would probably go, they've got an you would probably go, they've got an you would probably go, they've got an addiction problem, wouldn't you? addiction problem, wouldn't you? addiction problem, wouldn't you? >> Mhm. Yeah. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> But we don't go to that. So why I guess >> But we don't go to that. So why I guess >> But we don't go to that. So why I guess first of all, why do you think it's first of all, why do you think it's first of all, why do you think it's important to have this recognized as a important to have this recognized as a important to have this recognized as a formal addiction or or do you think it's formal addiction or or do you think it's formal addiction or or do you think it's important? Yes, I I do think it's important? Yes, I I do think it's important? Yes, I I do think it's important and the charity that that I important and the charity that that I important and the charity that that I work with, that's one of our key aims is work with, that's one of our key aims is work with, that's one of our key aims is to um get the World Health Organizations to um get the World Health Organizations to um get the World Health Organizations recognize this condition. So, there's recognize this condition. So, there's recognize this condition. So, there's quite a lot of evidence, there's a been quite a lot of evidence, there's a been quite a lot of evidence, there's a been a few research papers where if you um a few research papers where if you um a few research papers where if you um label this kind of behavior as label this kind of behavior as label this kind of behavior as addictive, you know, people might you addictive, you know, people might you addictive, you know, people might you might say, "Oh, that's stigmatizing or might say, "Oh, that's stigmatizing or might say, "Oh, that's stigmatizing or people don't want to be labeled as people don't want to be labeled as people don't want to be labeled as addict." But actually the research shows addict." But actually the research shows addict." But actually the research shows that um that that label makes people that um that that label makes people that um that that label makes people more sympathetic to themselves and it more sympathetic to themselves and it more sympathetic to themselves and it also makes us more sympathetic to others also makes us more sympathetic to others also makes us more sympathetic to others because then we can understand a because then we can understand a because then we can understand a behavior that on the face of it looks behavior that on the face of it looks behavior that on the face of it looks illogical. You know what why you've got illogical. You know what why you've got illogical. You know what why you've got type two diabetes why are you still type two diabetes why are you still type two diabetes why are you still >> having ice cream every every day or all >> having ice cream every every day or all >> having ice cream every every day or all these biscuits? You know, it it seems these biscuits? You know, it it seems these biscuits? You know, it it seems like a crazy thing to do, but if we if like a crazy thing to do, but if we if like a crazy thing to do, but if we if we label it as an addiction, I think we label it as an addiction, I think we label it as an addiction, I think people these days do understand. For people these days do understand. For people these days do understand. For example, you know, most of us know example, you know, most of us know example, you know, most of us know someone who's who's had an alcohol someone who's who's had an alcohol someone who's who's had an alcohol problem. Well, we've seen it in the problem. Well, we've seen it in the problem. Well, we've seen it in the media where people have done that and media where people have done that and media where people have done that and then they through abstinence and other then they through abstinence and other then they through abstinence and other practices, they, you know, they're practices, they, you know, they're practices, they, you know, they're they're in recovery from that. So, I they're in recovery from that. So, I they're in recovery from that. So, I think we can feel more sympathetic. think we can feel more sympathetic. think we can feel more sympathetic. Number one. Number two, um I think we've Number one. Number two, um I think we've Number one. Number two, um I think we've got these massive epidemics that we've got these massive epidemics that we've got these massive epidemics that we've sort of touched on of obesity, type two sort of touched on of obesity, type two sort of touched on of obesity, type two diabetes, metabolic unwwellness, diabetes, metabolic unwwellness, diabetes, metabolic unwwellness, um mental health problems, and could it um mental health problems, and could it um mental health problems, and could it be that part of that story is to do for be that part of that story is to do for be that part of that story is to do for some people and why, you know, they some people and why, you know, they some people and why, you know, they continue to suffer is to do with the continue to suffer is to do with the continue to suffer is to do with the fact that they've got an an addiction to fact that they've got an an addiction to fact that they've got an an addiction to sugar and these ultrarocessed foods. and sugar and these ultrarocessed foods. and sugar and these ultrarocessed foods. and that until we incorporate that in our that until we incorporate that in our that until we incorporate that in our treatment as health care professionals, treatment as health care professionals, treatment as health care professionals, they're never going to be successful. they're never going to be successful. they're never going to be successful. And also, you know, same with the we're And also, you know, same with the we're And also, you know, same with the we're not really touched on eating disorders, not really touched on eating disorders, not really touched on eating disorders, which sort of overlap with food which sort of overlap with food which sort of overlap with food addiction, but um many people with with addiction, but um many people with with addiction, but um many people with with an eating disorder actually have a food an eating disorder actually have a food an eating disorder actually have a food addiction and at the moment you can't addiction and at the moment you can't addiction and at the moment you can't get treatment for that in the in the UK. get treatment for that in the in the UK. get treatment for that in the in the UK. >> You can't get treatment for what? >> You can't get treatment for what? >> You can't get treatment for what? >> For food addiction, >> For food addiction, >> For food addiction, >> but you can of course for eating >> but you can of course for eating >> but you can of course for eating disorders. can of course for eating disorders. can of course for eating disorders. can of course for eating disorders, but if someone was disorders, but if someone was disorders, but if someone was misdiagnosed and they actually had an misdiagnosed and they actually had an misdiagnosed and they actually had an eating disorder, a food addiction, beg eating disorder, a food addiction, beg eating disorder, a food addiction, beg you pardon, and they're in an eating you pardon, and they're in an eating you pardon, and they're in an eating disorder service, they're going to get disorder service, they're going to get disorder service, they're going to get the wrong approach of of treatment. the wrong approach of of treatment. the wrong approach of of treatment. >> So, are they quite marketkedly different >> So, are they quite marketkedly different >> So, are they quite marketkedly different the approaches you would take? So the approaches you would take? So the approaches you would take? So generally although obviously that's not generally although obviously that's not generally although obviously that's not my e field of expertise eating disorders my e field of expertise eating disorders my e field of expertise eating disorders um but um but um but generally the idea of an eating disorder generally the idea of an eating disorder generally the idea of an eating disorder treatment program is a sort of all foods treatment program is a sort of all foods treatment program is a sort of all foods fit you know it's good you shouldn't fit you know it's good you shouldn't fit you know it's good you shouldn't restrict certain food categories and you restrict certain food categories and you restrict certain food categories and you should be able to sort of eat all foods should be able to sort of eat all foods should be able to sort of eat all foods now if I went in if I was you know when now if I went in if I was you know when now if I went in if I was you know when I was really in the midst of my food if I was really in the midst of my food if I was really in the midst of my food if I'd gone into a program like that I I'd gone into a program like that I I'd gone into a program like that I never would have succeeded because I never would have succeeded because I never would have succeeded because I could never could eat all foods and be could never could eat all foods and be could never could eat all foods and be all right. So I couldn't have had all right. So I couldn't have had all right. So I couldn't have had biscuits and and be all right by biscuits and and be all right by biscuits and and be all right by definition because I'd lost my control definition because I'd lost my control definition because I'd lost my control of that that relationship of that that relationship of that that relationship >> because as you say one is too many >> because as you say one is too many >> because as you say one is too many enough. So I'd never have been in in enough. So I'd never have been in in enough. So I'd never have been in in recovery then. recovery then. recovery then. >> Yeah. And we will get to your personal >> Yeah. And we will get to your personal >> Yeah. And we will get to your personal story, Jen, but my understanding story, Jen, but my understanding story, Jen, but my understanding >> is that there are certain foods now that >> is that there are certain foods now that >> is that there are certain foods now that you simply cannot have. Not even one. you simply cannot have. Not even one. you simply cannot have. Not even one. And you've learned over the years to go, And you've learned over the years to go, And you've learned over the years to go, "No, no, "No, no, "No, no, >> I just abstain." >> I just abstain." >> I just abstain." >> That's that's almost like a gateway >> That's that's almost like a gateway >> That's that's almost like a gateway food. If I start, I won't stop. And and food. If I start, I won't stop. And and food. If I start, I won't stop. And and as you say, as you say, as you say, >> that might be different advice from what >> that might be different advice from what >> that might be different advice from what you're getting in an eating disorder you're getting in an eating disorder you're getting in an eating disorder clinic. So, going back to that earlier clinic. So, going back to that earlier clinic. So, going back to that earlier question, I guess one of the reasons why question, I guess one of the reasons why question, I guess one of the reasons why it might be so useful to get this it might be so useful to get this it might be so useful to get this recognized recognized recognized >> Yeah. is so there's a difference >> Yeah. is so there's a difference >> Yeah. is so there's a difference >> the right people get the right treatment >> the right people get the right treatment >> the right people get the right treatment and and treatment is is available. So at and and treatment is is available. So at and and treatment is is available. So at the moment because it's not a recognized the moment because it's not a recognized the moment because it's not a recognized condition of course research isn't condition of course research isn't condition of course research isn't funded funded funded um treatments aren't treatment research um treatments aren't treatment research um treatments aren't treatment research or treatment clinics aren't funded. So or treatment clinics aren't funded. So or treatment clinics aren't funded. So if if you you know if you go to your GP if if you you know if you go to your GP if if you you know if you go to your GP and you say I can't give up cigarettes and you say I can't give up cigarettes and you say I can't give up cigarettes they can send you to the quit smoking they can send you to the quit smoking they can send you to the quit smoking service. If you have lost control of service. If you have lost control of service. If you have lost control of your ratio with alcohol, they can send your ratio with alcohol, they can send your ratio with alcohol, they can send you to the alcohol team um or the the you to the alcohol team um or the the you to the alcohol team um or the the drug team. Um if you go to your GP and drug team. Um if you go to your GP and drug team. Um if you go to your GP and say, "I'm addicted to sugar." I I don't say, "I'm addicted to sugar." I I don't say, "I'm addicted to sugar." I I don't know what they would do unless they go know what they would do unless they go know what they would do unless they go and see David obviously and then he's and see David obviously and then he's and see David obviously and then he's got a very good idea of what to do. But got a very good idea of what to do. But got a very good idea of what to do. But I think generally if people went went to I think generally if people went went to I think generally if people went went to their doctors and and said that they their doctors and and said that they their doctors and and said that they they wouldn't know where to refer them. they wouldn't know where to refer them. they wouldn't know where to refer them. And if they referred them to eating And if they referred them to eating And if they referred them to eating disorder service, that may or may not be disorder service, that may or may not be disorder service, that may or may not be right for them. So, we've made a uh now right for them. So, we've made a uh now right for them. So, we've made a uh now a second application to the WHO to get a second application to the WHO to get a second application to the WHO to get food addiction as a a recognized um food addiction as a a recognized um food addiction as a a recognized um disorder. And I think I think what's disorder. And I think I think what's disorder. And I think I think what's will also be good about it being will also be good about it being will also be good about it being recognized is that it really points the recognized is that it really points the recognized is that it really points the finger where the finger needs pointing. finger where the finger needs pointing. finger where the finger needs pointing. So, we've actually applied for it to be So, we've actually applied for it to be So, we've actually applied for it to be called ultrarocessed food use disorder. called ultrarocessed food use disorder. called ultrarocessed food use disorder. That's where the most research exists. That's where the most research exists. That's where the most research exists. um use this use disorder term is the um use this use disorder term is the um use this use disorder term is the term that is used um in the term that is used um in the term that is used um in the international classification of international classification of international classification of diseases. So you get alcohol use diseases. So you get alcohol use diseases. So you get alcohol use disorder for example. So disorder for example. So disorder for example. So >> formal term >> formal term >> formal term >> it's a formal term. So we've called it >> it's a formal term. So we've called it >> it's a formal term. So we've called it octopus food use disorder and I think octopus food use disorder and I think octopus food use disorder and I think that nicely points the finger where the that nicely points the finger where the that nicely points the finger where the finger needs pointing about where the finger needs pointing about where the finger needs pointing about where the where the problem is. It links back to where the problem is. It links back to where the problem is. It links back to this issue about the food supply. Um, this issue about the food supply. Um, this issue about the food supply. Um, you know, I think in the last few years you know, I think in the last few years you know, I think in the last few years there's been really this growing there's been really this growing there's been really this growing recognition of the dangers of recognition of the dangers of recognition of the dangers of ultrarocessed food. You talk about it on ultrarocessed food. You talk about it on ultrarocessed food. You talk about it on the podcast. We've got the wonderful um the podcast. We've got the wonderful um the podcast. We've got the wonderful um >> Chris Van Tullikin's book. Um, you know, >> Chris Van Tullikin's book. Um, you know, >> Chris Van Tullikin's book. Um, you know, lots of stuff. You've spoke to Rob lots of stuff. You've spoke to Rob lots of stuff. You've spoke to Rob Lustig. So I I think we starting to Lustig. So I I think we starting to Lustig. So I I think we starting to recognize the harms that those foods recognize the harms that those foods recognize the harms that those foods have on us physically and mentally and have on us physically and mentally and have on us physically and mentally and for for this proportion of vulnerable for for this proportion of vulnerable for for this proportion of vulnerable people you know that they can get stuck people you know that they can get stuck people you know that they can get stuck in this addictive relationship. in this addictive relationship. in this addictive relationship. >> Yeah. And I think there's a wider point >> Yeah. And I think there's a wider point >> Yeah. And I think there's a wider point here for us to really unpack which is here for us to really unpack which is here for us to really unpack which is that actually we should recognize that that actually we should recognize that that actually we should recognize that there are certain foods which I guess there are certain foods which I guess there are certain foods which I guess Michael Pollen would call food like Michael Pollen would call food like Michael Pollen would call food like substances as opposed to substances as opposed to substances as opposed to >> foods right >> foods right >> foods right >> that can be addictive. >> that can be addictive. >> that can be addictive. >> So in your >> So in your >> So in your experience and from your research what experience and from your research what experience and from your research what are the common foods that people have a are the common foods that people have a are the common foods that people have a problematic relationship with? problematic relationship with? problematic relationship with? >> Yeah. So things that have that >> Yeah. So things that have that >> Yeah. So things that have that combination of uh sugar, fat, refined combination of uh sugar, fat, refined combination of uh sugar, fat, refined grains, um salt and salt. Yeah. Although grains, um salt and salt. Yeah. Although grains, um salt and salt. Yeah. Although salt on its own probably isn't the salt on its own probably isn't the salt on its own probably isn't the problem, but when it's combined with problem, but when it's combined with problem, but when it's combined with with these other things. Um so that's so with these other things. Um so that's so with these other things. Um so that's so many of the modern foods that we you many of the modern foods that we you many of the modern foods that we you know, I mean, bread has got most of know, I mean, bread has got most of know, I mean, bread has got most of those things in now, hasn't it? sort of those things in now, hasn't it? sort of those things in now, hasn't it? sort of the industrially made bread, pizzas, the industrially made bread, pizzas, the industrially made bread, pizzas, donuts, you've got ice cream, um cakes, donuts, you've got ice cream, um cakes, donuts, you've got ice cream, um cakes, biscuits, all of these sort of biscuits, all of these sort of biscuits, all of these sort of >> tortilla chips. >> tortilla chips. >> tortilla chips. >> Tort Yeah. Dorito type things. Yeah. >> Tort Yeah. Dorito type things. Yeah. >> Tort Yeah. Dorito type things. Yeah. Crunchy. As you said, so many Crunchy. As you said, so many Crunchy. As you said, so many ingredients and kind of formulated to ingredients and kind of formulated to ingredients and kind of formulated to hit that that sweet, sour, salty, hit that that sweet, sour, salty, hit that that sweet, sour, salty, crunchy. crunchy. crunchy. >> Yeah. What I've noticed, Jen, is >> Yeah. What I've noticed, Jen, is >> Yeah. What I've noticed, Jen, is and this is I'm not obviously you have and this is I'm not obviously you have and this is I'm not obviously you have to make progress somewhere. Like if you to make progress somewhere. Like if you to make progress somewhere. Like if you can get the WH, the World Health can get the WH, the World Health can get the WH, the World Health Organization to recognize it, you know, Organization to recognize it, you know, Organization to recognize it, you know, around ultrarocessed foods, it opens the around ultrarocessed foods, it opens the around ultrarocessed foods, it opens the door to progressing that over the years, door to progressing that over the years, door to progressing that over the years, right? Because right? Because right? Because >> one thing >> one thing >> one thing >> I think look if we deal with ultra >> I think look if we deal with ultra >> I think look if we deal with ultra processed foods first you know you can processed foods first you know you can processed foods first you know you can get perhaps an inverted commas clean get perhaps an inverted commas clean get perhaps an inverted commas clean tortilla chip packet right which only tortilla chip packet right which only tortilla chip packet right which only has three or four ingredients but it's has three or four ingredients but it's has three or four ingredients but it's it's not only the ingredients it's the it's not only the ingredients it's the it's not only the ingredients it's the combination of them together that combination of them together that combination of them together that becomes problematic. becomes problematic. becomes problematic. >> Yeah. Our hunter gatherer ancestors >> Yeah. Our hunter gatherer ancestors >> Yeah. Our hunter gatherer ancestors didn't have crunchy salt sweet didn't have crunchy salt sweet didn't have crunchy salt sweet >> together. >> together. >> together. >> Together, >> Together, >> Together, >> which is a delight for the taste buds. >> which is a delight for the taste buds. >> which is a delight for the taste buds. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> It really is. >> It really is. >> It really is. >> And that's what that's your brain >> And that's what that's your brain >> And that's what that's your brain lighting up, isn't it? You can almost lighting up, isn't it? You can almost lighting up, isn't it? You can almost feel it kind of bing bing bing, you feel it kind of bing bing bing, you feel it kind of bing bing bing, you know, when you when you eat these know, when you when you eat these know, when you when you eat these things. Um you that's the pleasure, the things. Um you that's the pleasure, the things. Um you that's the pleasure, the reward, that's the the brain kind of reward, that's the the brain kind of reward, that's the the brain kind of very quickly because they they enter the very quickly because they they enter the very quickly because they they enter the bloodstream very quickly. That's another bloodstream very quickly. That's another bloodstream very quickly. That's another thing about drugs, isn't it? the faster thing about drugs, isn't it? the faster thing about drugs, isn't it? the faster they enter the bloodstream and and hit they enter the bloodstream and and hit they enter the bloodstream and and hit the brain, the more addictive they are. the brain, the more addictive they are. the brain, the more addictive they are. So foods that we all know that foods So foods that we all know that foods So foods that we all know that foods that are whole foods that are full of that are whole foods that are full of that are whole foods that are full of fiber and sort of natural, they get fiber and sort of natural, they get fiber and sort of natural, they get digested slowly. So those the sugar and digested slowly. So those the sugar and digested slowly. So those the sugar and the it's not it doesn't hit the brain in the it's not it doesn't hit the brain in the it's not it doesn't hit the brain in the same way as these processed foods the same way as these processed foods the same way as these processed foods with processed grains, sugar, salt, fat, with processed grains, sugar, salt, fat, with processed grains, sugar, salt, fat, all you know quickly quickly available. all you know quickly quickly available. all you know quickly quickly available. 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People can also overeat whole foods, People can also overeat whole foods, can't they? can't they? can't they? >> For sure. >> For sure. >> For sure. >> Which I guess takes it beyond UPS, >> Which I guess takes it beyond UPS, >> Which I guess takes it beyond UPS, ultrarocessed foods, which of course I ultrarocessed foods, which of course I ultrarocessed foods, which of course I think is the main problem. think is the main problem. think is the main problem. >> Yeah. But dairy, nuts. >> Yeah. But dairy, nuts. >> Yeah. But dairy, nuts. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um I actually heard when you spoke to >> Um I actually heard when you spoke to >> Um I actually heard when you spoke to Ken Barry on that conversation, he was Ken Barry on that conversation, he was Ken Barry on that conversation, he was talking about a patient who was addicted talking about a patient who was addicted talking about a patient who was addicted to steak. I don't know if you remember to steak. I don't know if you remember to steak. I don't know if you remember that. K was saying to you that they cut that. K was saying to you that they cut that. K was saying to you that they cut bits of steak, put them in a ziploc bag bits of steak, put them in a ziploc bag bits of steak, put them in a ziploc bag and put them in the bathroom and put them in the bathroom and put them in the bathroom >> and they'll sometimes sneak off to the >> and they'll sometimes sneak off to the >> and they'll sometimes sneak off to the bathroom, lock the door and eat bathroom, lock the door and eat bathroom, lock the door and eat >> what must be cold or room temperature >> what must be cold or room temperature >> what must be cold or room temperature steak which steak which steak which >> So this whole idea of >> So this whole idea of >> So this whole idea of >> addiction stroke problematic >> addiction stroke problematic >> addiction stroke problematic relationships with food. It's massive, relationships with food. It's massive, relationships with food. It's massive, isn't it? And there's certainly a isn't it? And there's certainly a isn't it? And there's certainly a proportion of people who are really proportion of people who are really proportion of people who are really struggling with that, which is why the struggling with that, which is why the struggling with that, which is why the conventional advice is often not working conventional advice is often not working conventional advice is often not working for them. they'll overeat for them. they'll overeat for them. they'll overeat anything in a way. There's a thing anything in a way. There's a thing anything in a way. There's a thing there's a there's a thing called volume there's a there's a thing called volume there's a there's a thing called volume addiction where people kind of get addiction where people kind of get addiction where people kind of get addicted just to having large amounts of addicted just to having large amounts of addicted just to having large amounts of food. You know there's and there's food. You know there's and there's food. You know there's and there's there's many explanations been put there's many explanations been put there's many explanations been put forward. One is which is you know when forward. One is which is you know when forward. One is which is you know when you stretch the stomach you actually get you stretch the stomach you actually get you stretch the stomach you actually get oxytocin serotonin kind of release. So oxytocin serotonin kind of release. So oxytocin serotonin kind of release. So you do get you do get you know in in you do get you do get you know in in you do get you do get you know in in some ways these sort of neurotransmitter some ways these sort of neurotransmitter some ways these sort of neurotransmitter highs. I think the other thing to highs. I think the other thing to highs. I think the other thing to remember is that with any addiction, remember is that with any addiction, remember is that with any addiction, it's not just about the substance. it's not just about the substance. it's not just about the substance. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. >> It's about the behavior. So, um, it's >> It's about the behavior. So, um, it's >> It's about the behavior. So, um, it's about about about the the cues. It's about who you're the the cues. It's about who you're the the cues. It's about who you're with, where, what, you know, the sort of with, where, what, you know, the sort of with, where, what, you know, the sort of social side of it. There's also the sort social side of it. There's also the sort social side of it. There's also the sort of well, I suppose the sort of comfort of well, I suppose the sort of comfort of well, I suppose the sort of comfort side of certain behaviors. So that's side of certain behaviors. So that's side of certain behaviors. So that's where you can get this overlap with with where you can get this overlap with with where you can get this overlap with with binge eating and um eating behaviors binge eating and um eating behaviors binge eating and um eating behaviors that are sort of triggered by emotional that are sort of triggered by emotional that are sort of triggered by emotional states because we eat for comfort, you states because we eat for comfort, you states because we eat for comfort, you know, or if there's a trauma history and know, or if there's a trauma history and know, or if there's a trauma history and we're maybe eating to, you know, to feel we're maybe eating to, you know, to feel we're maybe eating to, you know, to feel okay. Gabbor Mate talks about this a okay. Gabbor Mate talks about this a okay. Gabbor Mate talks about this a lot, doesn't he? Um he's really the the lot, doesn't he? Um he's really the the lot, doesn't he? Um he's really the the king of of that of that topic, you know, king of of that of that topic, you know, king of of that of that topic, you know, that we're eating to sort of fill a void that we're eating to sort of fill a void that we're eating to sort of fill a void in a sense. Obviously just like any in a sense. Obviously just like any in a sense. Obviously just like any addiction treatment where people are addiction treatment where people are addiction treatment where people are coming into treatment you have to take coming into treatment you have to take coming into treatment you have to take all of that into account. The other all of that into account. The other all of that into account. The other thing is that say so we were talking thing is that say so we were talking thing is that say so we were talking about nut butters before weren't we as about nut butters before weren't we as about nut butters before weren't we as well and how um that is a combination of well and how um that is a combination of well and how um that is a combination of you know carbohydrate fat salt you know carbohydrate fat salt you know carbohydrate fat salt um again which you wouldn't really have um again which you wouldn't really have um again which you wouldn't really have had so much in in nature. So things like had so much in in nature. So things like had so much in in nature. So things like nuts and dairy do have that rare nuts and dairy do have that rare nuts and dairy do have that rare combination of of fat, carbohydrate, combination of of fat, carbohydrate, combination of of fat, carbohydrate, protein. protein. protein. Um Um Um they're the only sort of whole foods they're the only sort of whole foods they're the only sort of whole foods that that have that and they can be that that have that and they can be that that have that and they can be problematic. Well, for any of us, but problematic. Well, for any of us, but problematic. Well, for any of us, but certainly those of us that have, you certainly those of us that have, you certainly those of us that have, you know, developed a food addiction problem know, developed a food addiction problem know, developed a food addiction problem can very easily overeat those things. can very easily overeat those things. can very easily overeat those things. And the other thing about addiction that And the other thing about addiction that And the other thing about addiction that we kind of touched on, but we didn't we kind of touched on, but we didn't we kind of touched on, but we didn't really go into is that once you've wired really go into is that once you've wired really go into is that once you've wired the brain for addiction, however that the brain for addiction, however that the brain for addiction, however that started, started, started, addiction, all addictions look the same addiction, all addictions look the same addiction, all addictions look the same in the brain. And so there was that that in the brain. And so there was that that in the brain. And so there was that that love the lovely quotes you were going love the lovely quotes you were going love the lovely quotes you were going from the people who'd listened to Ken's from the people who'd listened to Ken's from the people who'd listened to Ken's podcast about, you know, well, I I gave podcast about, you know, well, I I gave podcast about, you know, well, I I gave up this, but then sugar was my problem. up this, but then sugar was my problem. up this, but then sugar was my problem. you know that it is sort of you know that it is sort of you know that it is sort of one one one problem with with many one one one problem with with many one one one problem with with many outlets and once you if you treat outlets and once you if you treat outlets and once you if you treat somebody's main addiction problem somebody's main addiction problem somebody's main addiction problem it's a very common thing that other it's a very common thing that other it's a very common thing that other things will try and take its place things will try and take its place things will try and take its place because you're still looking for that because you're still looking for that because you're still looking for that dopamine hit. So for example, if you go dopamine hit. So for example, if you go dopamine hit. So for example, if you go to an alcoholics anonymous meeting, you to an alcoholics anonymous meeting, you to an alcoholics anonymous meeting, you see a lot of strong cups of coffee, you see a lot of strong cups of coffee, you see a lot of strong cups of coffee, you often see people smoking, you know, often see people smoking, you know, often see people smoking, you know, there's a lot of cake and biscuits there's a lot of cake and biscuits there's a lot of cake and biscuits because people are people are trying to because people are people are trying to because people are people are trying to sort of get that hit or we all know if sort of get that hit or we all know if sort of get that hit or we all know if if you give up smoking, people put on if you give up smoking, people put on if you give up smoking, people put on weight because they start eating polar weight because they start eating polar weight because they start eating polar mints. Um or another really stark mints. Um or another really stark mints. Um or another really stark example is when people have buriatric example is when people have buriatric example is when people have buriatric surgery because a lot of those people surgery because a lot of those people surgery because a lot of those people will be food addicts. Mhm. will be food addicts. Mhm. will be food addicts. Mhm. >> And then they can't, you know, they >> And then they can't, you know, they >> And then they can't, you know, they can't get that comfort from food. And a can't get that comfort from food. And a can't get that comfort from food. And a known side effect of biatric surgery is known side effect of biatric surgery is known side effect of biatric surgery is the development of a new alcohol the development of a new alcohol the development of a new alcohol >> use problem. >> use problem. >> use problem. >> Um because people are people can still, >> Um because people are people can still, >> Um because people are people can still, you know, get the alcohol. you know, get the alcohol. you know, get the alcohol. >> So So you cut off one pipeline to that >> So So you cut off one pipeline to that >> So So you cut off one pipeline to that dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, >> but the the brain has been wide in that >> but the the brain has been wide in that >> but the the brain has been wide in that individual to still want that. So they individual to still want that. So they individual to still want that. So they can't get it from food because they feel can't get it from food because they feel can't get it from food because they feel full. They've had buriatric surgery. full. They've had buriatric surgery. full. They've had buriatric surgery. they're gonna see they're gonna see they're gonna see >> for other sources of dopamine >> for other sources of dopamine >> for other sources of dopamine >> to get the same feeling, right? Because >> to get the same feeling, right? Because >> to get the same feeling, right? Because even going back to what you were saying even going back to what you were saying even going back to what you were saying before about emotions, of course, one of before about emotions, of course, one of before about emotions, of course, one of the biggest reasons that we overeat, the biggest reasons that we overeat, the biggest reasons that we overeat, I think whether you're a food addict or I think whether you're a food addict or I think whether you're a food addict or not, not, not, >> yes, >> yes, >> yes, >> certainly from my clinical experience, >> certainly from my clinical experience, >> certainly from my clinical experience, >> comfort eating, >> comfort eating, >> comfort eating, >> we eat our emotions. Yeah. >> we eat our emotions. Yeah. >> we eat our emotions. Yeah. >> You know, >> You know, >> You know, >> stress, >> stress, >> stress, >> we don't need a hole in our stomach. >> we don't need a hole in our stomach. >> we don't need a hole in our stomach. It's often the hole in our hearts, It's often the hole in our hearts, It's often the hole in our hearts, >> right? loneliness, stress, a day on >> right? loneliness, stress, a day on >> right? loneliness, stress, a day on Zooms when no natural light, we haven't Zooms when no natural light, we haven't Zooms when no natural light, we haven't been out, whatever it might be. Sugar been out, whatever it might be. Sugar been out, whatever it might be. Sugar gives you that natur that quick hit gives you that natur that quick hit gives you that natur that quick hit >> that quick hit or or you know that sort >> that quick hit or or you know that sort >> that quick hit or or you know that sort of feeling to some extent of calm. Yeah. of feeling to some extent of calm. Yeah. of feeling to some extent of calm. Yeah. One of the things I'm passionate about One of the things I'm passionate about One of the things I'm passionate about and with every passing year I become and with every passing year I become and with every passing year I become more and more passionate about this idea more and more passionate about this idea more and more passionate about this idea is that it's very rare that there's one is that it's very rare that there's one is that it's very rare that there's one piece of advice that works for everyone. piece of advice that works for everyone. piece of advice that works for everyone. Okay. So for example Okay. So for example Okay. So for example in the context of what we're talking in the context of what we're talking in the context of what we're talking about Jen about Jen about Jen it is common now with you know many it is common now with you know many it is common now with you know many nutrition professionals not everyone to nutrition professionals not everyone to nutrition professionals not everyone to be clear but but many people will say be clear but but many people will say be clear but but many people will say you shouldn't restrict anything you shouldn't restrict anything you shouldn't restrict anything >> and I understand the rationale behind >> and I understand the rationale behind >> and I understand the rationale behind that right I totally understand the that right I totally understand the that right I totally understand the rationale behind that and rationale behind that and rationale behind that and those professionals will probably um those professionals will probably um those professionals will probably um share case studies say well listen I had share case studies say well listen I had share case studies say well listen I had a patient like this and when I help them a patient like this and when I help them a patient like this and when I help them not restrict not restrict not restrict and say it's okay to have a little bit and say it's okay to have a little bit and say it's okay to have a little bit of everything. It works for them. of everything. It works for them. of everything. It works for them. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> agreed. >> agreed. >> agreed. >> But then they make the next step which >> But then they make the next step which >> But then they make the next step which is that's the advice for everyone and it is that's the advice for everyone and it is that's the advice for everyone and it ain't. ain't. ain't. >> It's not right. >> It's not right. >> It's not right. >> No, >> No, >> No, >> what you're saying is you know that that >> what you're saying is you know that that >> what you're saying is you know that that approach worked for one of your clients approach worked for one of your clients approach worked for one of your clients or your patients and maybe it worked for or your patients and maybe it worked for or your patients and maybe it worked for a hundred of them. a hundred of them. a hundred of them. >> It doesn't mean it works for everyone as >> It doesn't mean it works for everyone as >> It doesn't mean it works for everyone as you say and we'll get into your story. you say and we'll get into your story. you say and we'll get into your story. that approach probably wouldn't have that approach probably wouldn't have that approach probably wouldn't have worked for you. worked for you. worked for you. >> And you know that that general advice >> And you know that that general advice >> And you know that that general advice that restriction means that you've got a that restriction means that you've got a that restriction means that you've got a problematic relationship with food, problematic relationship with food, problematic relationship with food, which is what many people say, which is what many people say, which is what many people say, >> I just think is nonsense. Right? >> I just think is nonsense. Right? >> I just think is nonsense. Right? >> In this modern food environment, in my >> In this modern food environment, in my >> In this modern food environment, in my view, if you're not restricting view, if you're not restricting view, if you're not restricting something to a degree, something to a degree, something to a degree, >> you're probably going to be struggling >> you're probably going to be struggling >> you're probably going to be struggling with many aspects of your health. with many aspects of your health. with many aspects of your health. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's not the norm. That's not what >> That's not the norm. That's not what >> That's not the norm. That's not what people expect people to say. That's just people expect people to say. That's just people expect people to say. That's just what I've experienced myself and that's what I've experienced myself and that's what I've experienced myself and that's what I've experienced with my patients what I've experienced with my patients what I've experienced with my patients over the years. over the years. over the years. >> You know, in fact, I would say from what >> You know, in fact, I would say from what >> You know, in fact, I would say from what I've seen, Jen, there's also this idea I've seen, Jen, there's also this idea I've seen, Jen, there's also this idea that, that, that, >> you know, health is about adding in >> you know, health is about adding in >> you know, health is about adding in stuff to your diet. You know, you know, stuff to your diet. You know, you know, stuff to your diet. You know, you know, blueberries do this, so you want to add blueberries do this, so you want to add blueberries do this, so you want to add in blueberries. Um, this food does that, in blueberries. Um, this food does that, in blueberries. Um, this food does that, you want to add that in. Great. I'm not you want to add that in. Great. I'm not you want to add that in. Great. I'm not against that. And I would say in my against that. And I would say in my against that. And I would say in my clinical career, clinical career, clinical career, most of my benefit with patients has most of my benefit with patients has most of my benefit with patients has come from when they cut out stuff. So come from when they cut out stuff. So come from when they cut out stuff. So rather than adding in healthy things, rather than adding in healthy things, rather than adding in healthy things, >> they cut out things that were >> they cut out things that were >> they cut out things that were problematic. problematic. problematic. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But that's not the conventional view. >> But that's not the conventional view. >> But that's not the conventional view. >> Yeah. It's this I think I think the word >> Yeah. It's this I think I think the word >> Yeah. It's this I think I think the word restriction is such a kind of restriction is such a kind of restriction is such a kind of >> it's a triggering word. >> it's a triggering word. >> it's a triggering word. >> It's a triggering word. We go, oh, you >> It's a triggering word. We go, oh, you >> It's a triggering word. We go, oh, you mustn't. And that's, you know, going mustn't. And that's, you know, going mustn't. And that's, you know, going back to the eating disorder side, and I back to the eating disorder side, and I back to the eating disorder side, and I can see why, can see why, can see why, you know, for some people, they've you know, for some people, they've you know, for some people, they've they've overrestricted. They've dieted they've overrestricted. They've dieted they've overrestricted. They've dieted all their lives. all their lives. all their lives. >> I think if you restrict so so there's >> I think if you restrict so so there's >> I think if you restrict so so there's restricting calories and nutrition, restricting calories and nutrition, restricting calories and nutrition, which is a very bad idea, and then which is a very bad idea, and then which is a very bad idea, and then there's restricting there's restricting there's restricting certain things which are which are certain things which are which are certain things which are which are harming you or which you can't control. harming you or which you can't control. harming you or which you can't control. But overall, you're really focusing on But overall, you're really focusing on But overall, you're really focusing on getting nutrient-dense foods in in the getting nutrient-dense foods in in the getting nutrient-dense foods in in the right amounts that the body needs. right amounts that the body needs. right amounts that the body needs. You're not restricting calories and You're not restricting calories and You're not restricting calories and you're not restricting you're not restricting you're not restricting >> um >> um >> um proteins and fats essentially the proteins and fats essentially the proteins and fats essentially the essential ones that you that you need. essential ones that you that you need. essential ones that you that you need. Um I think those are two completely Um I think those are two completely Um I think those are two completely different things and I think women different things and I think women different things and I think women particularly have overrestricted particularly have overrestricted particularly have overrestricted calories, fat and protein calories, fat and protein calories, fat and protein and in my view this is why we see a lot and in my view this is why we see a lot and in my view this is why we see a lot more women come forward with sort of more women come forward with sort of more women come forward with sort of food addiction problems because they're food addiction problems because they're food addiction problems because they're they're essentially malnourished and they're essentially malnourished and they're essentially malnourished and their bodies are sort of saying you know their bodies are sort of saying you know their bodies are sort of saying you know keep eating keep eating because we need keep eating keep eating because we need keep eating keep eating because we need we need more nourishment. it's not what we need more nourishment. it's not what we need more nourishment. it's not what they're eating isn't nutrientdens. So we they're eating isn't nutrientdens. So we they're eating isn't nutrientdens. So we as you you've said that we you know as you you've said that we you know as you you've said that we you know we've done treatment programs and and we've done treatment programs and and we've done treatment programs and and we've even done some residentials where we've even done some residentials where we've even done some residentials where we've sort of had people around for the we've sort of had people around for the we've sort of had people around for the weekends and they're always amazed. So I weekends and they're always amazed. So I weekends and they're always amazed. So I work with Heidi who's a nutritionist work with Heidi who's a nutritionist work with Heidi who's a nutritionist Heidi Ya um they're just amazed at the Heidi Ya um they're just amazed at the Heidi Ya um they're just amazed at the amount of protein that we both put on amount of protein that we both put on amount of protein that we both put on our plates and they're like wow you can our plates and they're like wow you can our plates and they're like wow you can have that much protein. Well, yes. You have that much protein. Well, yes. You have that much protein. Well, yes. You know, that's that's the amount you need. know, that's that's the amount you need. know, that's that's the amount you need. And I think we, you know, as as women, And I think we, you know, as as women, And I think we, you know, as as women, we'd all been trained that you mustn't we'd all been trained that you mustn't we'd all been trained that you mustn't put fat on it and you have to have this put fat on it and you have to have this put fat on it and you have to have this tiny amount of protein. tiny amount of protein. tiny amount of protein. >> And I think you you bring some, >> And I think you you bring some, >> And I think you you bring some, you know, you raised some really you know, you raised some really you know, you raised some really important points, Jen, there you know, important points, Jen, there you know, important points, Jen, there you know, if someone has been overly restricting, if someone has been overly restricting, if someone has been overly restricting, right, maybe because of toxic diet right, maybe because of toxic diet right, maybe because of toxic diet culture and all kinds of things for a culture and all kinds of things for a culture and all kinds of things for a number of years. number of years. number of years. >> Yes. for that individual >> Yes. for that individual >> Yes. for that individual it may be that actually the right it may be that actually the right it may be that actually the right approach is hey listen you've overly approach is hey listen you've overly approach is hey listen you've overly restricted we need to bring things in we restricted we need to bring things in we restricted we need to bring things in we don't want you restricting anymore don't want you restricting anymore don't want you restricting anymore because restriction for you causes because restriction for you causes because restriction for you causes problems problems problems >> at the same time if someone has an overt >> at the same time if someone has an overt >> at the same time if someone has an overt problematic relationship with sugar or problematic relationship with sugar or problematic relationship with sugar or ultrarocessed foods restricting those ultrarocessed foods restricting those ultrarocessed foods restricting those things might be the best thing that ever things might be the best thing that ever things might be the best thing that ever happens to them right so happens to them right so happens to them right so >> one of the things that I Guess I I just >> one of the things that I Guess I I just >> one of the things that I Guess I I just I find gets people into problems these I find gets people into problems these I find gets people into problems these days. You know, there's there's great days. You know, there's there's great days. You know, there's there's great that there's so much content out there. that there's so much content out there. that there's so much content out there. There's so much information for people There's so much information for people There's so much information for people to consume. to consume. to consume. >> And the downside is that too much of it >> And the downside is that too much of it >> And the downside is that too much of it becomes black or white. becomes black or white. becomes black or white. >> It's either that or that. And the truth >> It's either that or that. And the truth >> It's either that or that. And the truth is a lot of different approaches work is a lot of different approaches work is a lot of different approaches work for a lot of different people. So the for a lot of different people. So the for a lot of different people. So the question is what's the right approach question is what's the right approach question is what's the right approach >> for you for you? >> for you for you? >> for you for you? >> And you have to >> And you have to >> And you have to >> the only way you're an N equals one >> the only way you're an N equals one >> the only way you're an N equals one experiment. This is what I found with my experiment. This is what I found with my experiment. This is what I found with my own experience. And you have to work out own experience. And you have to work out own experience. And you have to work out which foods those are that that trigger which foods those are that that trigger which foods those are that that trigger you and that don't and that you know how you and that don't and that you know how you and that don't and that you know how to how to nourish yourself with the with to how to nourish yourself with the with to how to nourish yourself with the with the right amounts of foods that you need the right amounts of foods that you need the right amounts of foods that you need for your, you know, brain or all our for your, you know, brain or all our for your, you know, brain or all our genetics is so unique, aren't they? genetics is so unique, aren't they? genetics is so unique, aren't they? We've all got these different sort of We've all got these different sort of We've all got these different sort of >> I think it's not for me it's not only >> I think it's not for me it's not only >> I think it's not for me it's not only our genetics. We've all got a different our genetics. We've all got a different our genetics. We've all got a different trauma history, a different childhood. trauma history, a different childhood. trauma history, a different childhood. Yes. And you know I I I used to see this Yes. And you know I I I used to see this Yes. And you know I I I used to see this all the time with patients that you know people think oh you know my mom you know people think oh you know my mom did this it's in my genes. Well, yeah. did this it's in my genes. Well, yeah. did this it's in my genes. Well, yeah. Or it could be that you saw your Or it could be that you saw your Or it could be that you saw your mother's problematic relationship with mother's problematic relationship with mother's problematic relationship with food as a child and she emotionally at food as a child and she emotionally at food as a child and she emotionally at so you also emotionally at and I've also so you also emotionally at and I've also so you also emotionally at and I've also seen it where and I'm not blaming anyone seen it where and I'm not blaming anyone seen it where and I'm not blaming anyone when I say this. It's just a neutral when I say this. It's just a neutral when I say this. It's just a neutral observation that observation that observation that >> for some and it could be dads as well. >> for some and it could be dads as well. >> for some and it could be dads as well. You know, it could be that if your adult You know, it could be that if your adult You know, it could be that if your adult caregivers when you were growing up caregivers when you were growing up caregivers when you were growing up >> emotionally ate and they did it in front >> emotionally ate and they did it in front >> emotionally ate and they did it in front of you, sometimes they'll do that with of you, sometimes they'll do that with of you, sometimes they'll do that with you because it's a bonding. Hey, I don't you because it's a bonding. Hey, I don't you because it's a bonding. Hey, I don't feel good. Let's all open up. feel good. Let's all open up. feel good. Let's all open up. Let's all have ice cream. Oh, for sure. Let's all have ice cream. Oh, for sure. Let's all have ice cream. Oh, for sure. There's a a family culture. There's a a family culture. There's a a family culture. >> Yeah. Again, I'm not blaming anyone >> Yeah. Again, I'm not blaming anyone >> Yeah. Again, I'm not blaming anyone here, but it may be that you just here, but it may be that you just here, but it may be that you just observed that you, observed that you, observed that you, >> you know, embodied it, and then at 40 >> you know, embodied it, and then at 40 >> you know, embodied it, and then at 40 years old now, years old now, years old now, >> that's now problematic for you. Maybe >> that's now problematic for you. Maybe >> that's now problematic for you. Maybe you got away with it as a teenager, but you got away with it as a teenager, but you got away with it as a teenager, but you ain't getting away with it anymore. you ain't getting away with it anymore. you ain't getting away with it anymore. >> And so, for that individual, >> And so, for that individual, >> And so, for that individual, >> that needs to be looked at. I mean, I >> that needs to be looked at. I mean, I >> that needs to be looked at. I mean, I guess you spent guess you spent guess you spent >> those behaviors are so ingrained in our >> those behaviors are so ingrained in our >> those behaviors are so ingrained in our psyche, aren't they? And I think the psyche, aren't they? And I think the psyche, aren't they? And I think the other thing which is super important is other thing which is super important is other thing which is super important is that so we never we don't give our kids that so we never we don't give our kids that so we never we don't give our kids caffeine or alcohol or drugs. We just caffeine or alcohol or drugs. We just caffeine or alcohol or drugs. We just don't. But we give them sugar. And often don't. But we give them sugar. And often don't. But we give them sugar. And often that's kind of glorified, isn't it? You that's kind of glorified, isn't it? You that's kind of glorified, isn't it? You know, you bang your knee, you're crying, know, you bang your knee, you're crying, know, you bang your knee, you're crying, you know, come and have come and sit you know, come and have come and sit you know, come and have come and sit down and, you know, have a lollipop or down and, you know, have a lollipop or down and, you know, have a lollipop or something. And so we give our children something. And so we give our children something. And so we give our children these foods that we now know because these foods that we now know because these foods that we now know because we've got the studies that show that we've got the studies that show that we've got the studies that show that they, you know, they're altering the they, you know, they're altering the they, you know, they're altering the structure and function of their brains. structure and function of their brains. structure and function of their brains. Um, and I think society doesn't yet, Um, and I think society doesn't yet, Um, and I think society doesn't yet, it's changing, it's improving, but it's changing, it's improving, but it's changing, it's improving, but society doesn't yet view these foods society doesn't yet view these foods society doesn't yet view these foods with enough with enough with enough skepticism and enough um concern for our skepticism and enough um concern for our skepticism and enough um concern for our our children's health. Because once, as our children's health. Because once, as our children's health. Because once, as we've already said, once the brain is we've already said, once the brain is we've already said, once the brain is wired for addiction, it's wired. And if wired for addiction, it's wired. And if wired for addiction, it's wired. And if those children have got there, there those children have got there, there those children have got there, there there is a bit of a genetic component. there is a bit of a genetic component. there is a bit of a genetic component. There's also the kind of like you say There's also the kind of like you say There's also the kind of like you say the family culture component if there's the family culture component if there's the family culture component if there's a traumatic situation going on. Um we a traumatic situation going on. Um we a traumatic situation going on. Um we show a brilliant video of Eric Clapton show a brilliant video of Eric Clapton show a brilliant video of Eric Clapton um who was famous for his drug and um who was famous for his drug and um who was famous for his drug and alcohol problems and an interviewer says alcohol problems and an interviewer says alcohol problems and an interviewer says to him to him to him >> you know so when did it start? Was it >> you know so when did it start? Was it >> you know so when did it start? Was it cocaine kind of thing? He says no it was cocaine kind of thing? He says no it was cocaine kind of thing? He says no it was sugar. He said, "When I was a kid, that sugar. He said, "When I was a kid, that sugar. He said, "When I was a kid, that was how I altered my the thing I had was how I altered my the thing I had was how I altered my the thing I had available to alter my consciousness, my available to alter my consciousness, my available to alter my consciousness, my sense of, you know, how I felt." And so sense of, you know, how I felt." And so sense of, you know, how I felt." And so I that was what I used. And and um I've I that was what I used. And and um I've I that was what I used. And and um I've spoken to a lot of people spoken to a lot of people spoken to a lot of people who who say similar things. That was who who say similar things. That was who who say similar things. That was what they had available. They were in what they had available. They were in what they had available. They were in very difficult situations, very difficult situations, very difficult situations, but they could get sugar, ice cream, you but they could get sugar, ice cream, you but they could get sugar, ice cream, you know, crisps, and and that was their know, crisps, and and that was their know, crisps, and and that was their comfort. comfort. comfort. >> You almost learn it subconsciously. You >> You almost learn it subconsciously. You >> You almost learn it subconsciously. You know, the human desire for most know, the human desire for most know, the human desire for most behaviors comes from this this need to behaviors comes from this this need to behaviors comes from this this need to change our state, right? We don't like change our state, right? We don't like change our state, right? We don't like the way we're feeling, you know, the way we're feeling, you know, the way we're feeling, you know, boredom, frustration, anger, whatever it boredom, frustration, anger, whatever it boredom, frustration, anger, whatever it might be, right? Yeah. might be, right? Yeah. might be, right? Yeah. >> And so we >> And so we >> And so we want to engage in something to change want to engage in something to change want to engage in something to change that. And that something could be that. And that something could be that. And that something could be Instagram, Tik Tok. Instagram, Tik Tok. Instagram, Tik Tok. >> We've not talked about scrolling, but >> We've not talked about scrolling, but >> We've not talked about scrolling, but that's another dopamine hit. that's another dopamine hit. that's another dopamine hit. >> It could be a cigarette. >> It could be a cigarette. >> It could be a cigarette. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It could also be food, >> It could also be food, >> It could also be food, >> drink, >> drink, >> drink, >> because it's and in many ways they all >> because it's and in many ways they all >> because it's and in many ways they all try to do the same thing. So the try to do the same thing. So the try to do the same thing. So the question is, question is, question is, >> what have you been conditioned to to do? >> what have you been conditioned to to do? >> what have you been conditioned to to do? what's your kind of inverted drug of what's your kind of inverted drug of what's your kind of inverted drug of choice? choice? choice? >> What's available? >> What's available? >> What's available? >> Yeah. And you you bring it up with the >> Yeah. And you you bring it up with the >> Yeah. And you you bring it up with the children and I think that's, you know, I children and I think that's, you know, I children and I think that's, you know, I had I had Professor Dale Bredesen on a had I had Professor Dale Bredesen on a had I had Professor Dale Bredesen on a few months ago, this amazing few months ago, this amazing few months ago, this amazing neurologist, the first person to publish neurologist, the first person to publish neurologist, the first person to publish studies showing a reversal of studies showing a reversal of studies showing a reversal of Alzheimer's. This was early, right? But Alzheimer's. This was early, right? But Alzheimer's. This was early, right? But I think his first trial was in 2014. And I think his first trial was in 2014. And I think his first trial was in 2014. And it's a very novel approach. And I've it's a very novel approach. And I've it's a very novel approach. And I've spoken to some of his patients. I've spoken to some of his patients. I've spoken to some of his patients. I've been out and done intensives within been out and done intensives within been out and done intensives within America and helped him. And it's it's America and helped him. And it's it's America and helped him. And it's it's pretty phenomenal Dale's approach and pretty phenomenal Dale's approach and pretty phenomenal Dale's approach and when he came on because one of the when he came on because one of the when he came on because one of the things we were talking about is if things we were talking about is if things we were talking about is if someone has someone has someone has early cognitive decline what can be done early cognitive decline what can be done early cognitive decline what can be done and it's you know it's not just one and it's you know it's not just one and it's you know it's not just one thing it's multiple things but one of thing it's multiple things but one of thing it's multiple things but one of the things that Dale talks about amongst the things that Dale talks about amongst the things that Dale talks about amongst many others many others many others >> is reducing sugar intake >> is reducing sugar intake >> is reducing sugar intake >> right >> right >> right >> talks about insulin resistance in the >> talks about insulin resistance in the >> talks about insulin resistance in the brain and how important it can be and brain and how important it can be and brain and how important it can be and I've seen that with patients before how I've seen that with patients before how I've seen that with patients before how it can literally have a marked it can literally have a marked it can literally have a marked improvement in cognition, but then improvement in cognition, but then improvement in cognition, but then you've got the problem of compliance, you've got the problem of compliance, you've got the problem of compliance, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> You can know you, you know, someone >> You can know you, you know, someone >> You can know you, you know, someone might listen to the podcast with me and might listen to the podcast with me and might listen to the podcast with me and Dale and then go to their mom and their Dale and then go to their mom and their Dale and then go to their mom and their carers and say, "Hey, listen. We need to carers and say, "Hey, listen. We need to carers and say, "Hey, listen. We need to cut sugar, cut sugar, cut sugar, >> but it may be very hard to do it." And I >> but it may be very hard to do it." And I >> but it may be very hard to do it." And I said to Dale, "The problem is a lot of said to Dale, "The problem is a lot of said to Dale, "The problem is a lot of people, a lot of family members people, a lot of family members people, a lot of family members >> won't deem it." I was like, "No, that's, >> won't deem it." I was like, "No, that's, >> won't deem it." I was like, "No, that's, you know, don't deprive them." you know, don't deprive them." you know, don't deprive them." >> Exactly. Right. And you know, >> Exactly. Right. And you know, >> Exactly. Right. And you know, I guess everyone has got the right to I guess everyone has got the right to I guess everyone has got the right to make a decision for their life that they make a decision for their life that they make a decision for their life that they think is the best thing. So for someone think is the best thing. So for someone think is the best thing. So for someone it might be, yeah, mom hasn't got much it might be, yeah, mom hasn't got much it might be, yeah, mom hasn't got much time left or dad hasn't got much time time left or dad hasn't got much time time left or dad hasn't got much time left. Why not let them enjoy it for the left. Why not let them enjoy it for the left. Why not let them enjoy it for the final few months? Okay. And I have I final few months? Okay. And I have I final few months? Okay. And I have I have a lot of sympathy with that. What have a lot of sympathy with that. What have a lot of sympathy with that. What Dale was saying is that for a lot of Dale was saying is that for a lot of Dale was saying is that for a lot of people, he said he said it it comes down people, he said he said it it comes down people, he said he said it it comes down to this societal education piece where to this societal education piece where to this societal education piece where >> you would naturally perhaps not want to >> you would naturally perhaps not want to >> you would naturally perhaps not want to give someone in a certain medical give someone in a certain medical give someone in a certain medical condition a cigarette. You kind of go, condition a cigarette. You kind of go, condition a cigarette. You kind of go, listen, listen, listen, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> hey, you got a cancer here. Why? What? >> hey, you got a cancer here. Why? What? >> hey, you got a cancer here. Why? What? You got lung cancer here. Don't smoke. You got lung cancer here. Don't smoke. You got lung cancer here. Don't smoke. Right. Right. Right. >> We don't see it the same way with sugar >> We don't see it the same way with sugar >> We don't see it the same way with sugar the same way, which is a problem. the same way, which is a problem. the same way, which is a problem. >> Yeah. Yes. Exactly. And it's going back >> Yeah. Yes. Exactly. And it's going back >> Yeah. Yes. Exactly. And it's going back to why do we need to get food addiction to why do we need to get food addiction to why do we need to get food addiction recognized as as an official condition. recognized as as an official condition. recognized as as an official condition. I think it legitimizes then the harms it I think it legitimizes then the harms it I think it legitimizes then the harms it the harms it can do the harms it can do the harms it can do >> and also >> and also >> and also then you wouldn't be able to serve then you wouldn't be able to serve then you wouldn't be able to serve ultrarocessed food in schools or ultrarocessed food in schools or ultrarocessed food in schools or hospitals. So we don't now there was a hospitals. So we don't now there was a hospitals. So we don't now there was a time wasn't there when you I remember time wasn't there when you I remember time wasn't there when you I remember when my granddad was in hospital you when my granddad was in hospital you when my granddad was in hospital you could have a bottle of Guinness or could have a bottle of Guinness or could have a bottle of Guinness or something you know it wasn't it wasn't something you know it wasn't it wasn't something you know it wasn't it wasn't banned. Well, now you wouldn't ever see banned. Well, now you wouldn't ever see banned. Well, now you wouldn't ever see people drinking or smoking in hospital. people drinking or smoking in hospital. people drinking or smoking in hospital. Um, but if you look at what people are Um, but if you look at what people are Um, but if you look at what people are eating and what's in the vending eating and what's in the vending eating and what's in the vending machines and also what's been sold in machines and also what's been sold in machines and also what's been sold in the foyers of hospitals, it, you know, the foyers of hospitals, it, you know, the foyers of hospitals, it, you know, to people like me that know really know to people like me that know really know to people like me that know really know the harms um on a very personal level, the harms um on a very personal level, the harms um on a very personal level, it's it's shocking the the nutrition in it's it's shocking the the nutrition in it's it's shocking the the nutrition in hospitals and schools. hospitals and schools. hospitals and schools. >> Let's get super practical, Jen. >> Let's get super practical, Jen. >> Let's get super practical, Jen. >> Yes. Um, >> Yes. Um, >> Yes. Um, how might somebody who's listening to how might somebody who's listening to how might somebody who's listening to this this this get an idea of whether they have a get an idea of whether they have a get an idea of whether they have a problematic relationship with food? Are problematic relationship with food? Are problematic relationship with food? Are there any symptoms, signs or questions there any symptoms, signs or questions there any symptoms, signs or questions they can ask themselves that would help they can ask themselves that would help they can ask themselves that would help them identify that? them identify that? them identify that? >> Yes. So, what we did is we took the six >> Yes. So, what we did is we took the six >> Yes. So, what we did is we took the six um symptoms that the WHO used to define um symptoms that the WHO used to define um symptoms that the WHO used to define substance use disorder. Um, we've made substance use disorder. Um, we've made substance use disorder. Um, we've made them into a little screening them into a little screening them into a little screening questionnaire called craved. So I love questionnaire called craved. So I love questionnaire called craved. So I love an acronym. So craved is the six an acronym. So craved is the six an acronym. So craved is the six symptoms that you'd look out for for any symptoms that you'd look out for for any symptoms that you'd look out for for any substance use disorder. But as we go substance use disorder. But as we go substance use disorder. But as we go through them, I think you and everybody through them, I think you and everybody through them, I think you and everybody else will see how well these can else will see how well these can else will see how well these can actually apply to people's behavior with actually apply to people's behavior with actually apply to people's behavior with food. So if you uh play along and uh you food. So if you uh play along and uh you food. So if you uh play along and uh you know count up people who people who are know count up people who people who are know count up people who people who are listening can say well how many of these listening can say well how many of these listening can say well how many of these would you feel would apply to you? Um would you feel would apply to you? Um would you feel would apply to you? Um and three or more is the the cutoff in and three or more is the the cutoff in and three or more is the the cutoff in so in the in the in the ICD criteria so in the in the in the ICD criteria so in the in the in the ICD criteria three or more of these symptoms um would three or more of these symptoms um would three or more of these symptoms um would be the cut off not for a diagnosis be the cut off not for a diagnosis be the cut off not for a diagnosis obviously because it's not a diagnosis obviously because it's not a diagnosis obviously because it's not a diagnosis but this would indicate that maybe but this would indicate that maybe but this would indicate that maybe you've got some addictive like symptoms you've got some addictive like symptoms you've got some addictive like symptoms in relation to your food behavior. So C in relation to your food behavior. So C in relation to your food behavior. So C is obviously for cravings and is obviously for cravings and is obviously for cravings and compulsions. So, does someone listening compulsions. So, does someone listening compulsions. So, does someone listening have a craving or compulsion for a have a craving or compulsion for a have a craving or compulsion for a certain food? certain food? certain food? >> For certain foods that feel so strong >> For certain foods that feel so strong >> For certain foods that feel so strong that you know you struggle to resist it that you know you struggle to resist it that you know you struggle to resist it or you you can't resist it. or you you can't resist it. or you you can't resist it. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So, I think we can all recognize >> Yeah. So, I think we can all recognize >> Yeah. So, I think we can all recognize that R stands for reaching for more. And that R stands for reaching for more. And that R stands for reaching for more. And this gets at the idea that we all this gets at the idea that we all this gets at the idea that we all understand um tolerance. We all understand um tolerance. We all understand um tolerance. We all understand it in relation to alcohol, understand it in relation to alcohol, understand it in relation to alcohol, don't we? So if you have don't we? So if you have don't we? So if you have uh one drink, you might feel a little uh one drink, you might feel a little uh one drink, you might feel a little bit of an effect. If you have one drink bit of an effect. If you have one drink bit of an effect. If you have one drink every night, after a while you're not every night, after a while you're not every night, after a while you're not going to feel so much of an effect from going to feel so much of an effect from going to feel so much of an effect from that. So you might then start having two that. So you might then start having two that. So you might then start having two glasses of wine a night to get So you glasses of wine a night to get So you glasses of wine a night to get So you need more and more to get the same need more and more to get the same need more and more to get the same effect. So that's what R stands for, effect. So that's what R stands for, effect. So that's what R stands for, reaching for more. So you might, you reaching for more. So you might, you reaching for more. So you might, you know, it might have been a couple of know, it might have been a couple of know, it might have been a couple of biscuits, but now once you've opened the biscuits, but now once you've opened the biscuits, but now once you've opened the biscuits, it ends up being half a packet biscuits, it ends up being half a packet biscuits, it ends up being half a packet or a whole packet. So needing more and or a whole packet. So needing more and or a whole packet. So needing more and more to feel kind of the feeling that more to feel kind of the feeling that more to feel kind of the feeling that you were you were you were >> satiated you were hoping to sort of feel >> satiated you were hoping to sort of feel >> satiated you were hoping to sort of feel calm or whatever it is. calm or whatever it is. calm or whatever it is. >> A is for acti activities neglected. And >> A is for acti activities neglected. And >> A is for acti activities neglected. And this gets at the idea that when people this gets at the idea that when people this gets at the idea that when people start getting addicted to substances, it start getting addicted to substances, it start getting addicted to substances, it sort of starts to fill up their whole sort of starts to fill up their whole sort of starts to fill up their whole lives. So they stop thinking so much lives. So they stop thinking so much lives. So they stop thinking so much about family. They stop thinking about about family. They stop thinking about about family. They stop thinking about hobbies. They stop thinking about doing hobbies. They stop thinking about doing hobbies. They stop thinking about doing well at work. um well at work. um well at work. um >> it becomes all-encompassing in their >> it becomes all-encompassing in their >> it becomes all-encompassing in their >> lives all encompassing and other things >> lives all encompassing and other things >> lives all encompassing and other things sort of you know closing down. So is is sort of you know closing down. So is is sort of you know closing down. So is is that happening? that happening? that happening? >> Can I just ask Jen there um when I was >> Can I just ask Jen there um when I was >> Can I just ask Jen there um when I was reading out some of the comments before reading out some of the comments before reading out some of the comments before that people left on that YouTube video. that people left on that YouTube video. that people left on that YouTube video. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> that second comment I read out to you >> that second comment I read out to you >> that second comment I read out to you was I used to lie to my wife and was I used to lie to my wife and was I used to lie to my wife and secretly buy ice cream with cash says secretly buy ice cream with cash says secretly buy ice cream with cash says she couldn't track it. she couldn't track it. she couldn't track it. >> Does that that doesn't quite qualify for >> Does that that doesn't quite qualify for >> Does that that doesn't quite qualify for a for activities neglected, does it? It a for activities neglected, does it? It a for activities neglected, does it? It it kind of does because that's going to it kind of does because that's going to it kind of does because that's going to affect your relationship with a wife. affect your relationship with a wife. affect your relationship with a wife. This kind of secrecy. This kind of secrecy. This kind of secrecy. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> secrecy is you don't really want to be >> secrecy is you don't really want to be >> secrecy is you don't really want to be lying to your lying to your lying to your >> spouse, your partner honest with you. >> spouse, your partner honest with you. >> spouse, your partner honest with you. >> That's not a great position to be in a >> That's not a great position to be in a >> That's not a great position to be in a great place to start, is it? So, so great place to start, is it? So, so great place to start, is it? So, so yeah, that would that would definitely yeah, that would that would definitely yeah, that would that would definitely count and you're kind of yeah, you're it count and you're kind of yeah, you're it count and you're kind of yeah, you're it would be that preoccupation where you would be that preoccupation where you would be that preoccupation where you know presumably that person is, you know presumably that person is, you know presumably that person is, you know, even while they're perhaps having know, even while they're perhaps having know, even while they're perhaps having a conversation with their spouse a conversation with their spouse a conversation with their spouse thinking, right, when can I sneak off? I thinking, right, when can I sneak off? I thinking, right, when can I sneak off? I mean, I can remember doing this thinking mean, I can remember doing this thinking mean, I can remember doing this thinking when can I when can I have half an hour when can I when can I have half an hour when can I when can I have half an hour so I can drive to view this? I literally so I can drive to view this? I literally so I can drive to view this? I literally did this. drive to view cinema and get a did this. drive to view cinema and get a did this. drive to view cinema and get a Ben and Jerry's ice cream because that's Ben and Jerry's ice cream because that's Ben and Jerry's ice cream because that's what I really really want right now and what I really really want right now and what I really really want right now and I sit in the car and eat it and then I sit in the car and eat it and then I sit in the car and eat it and then drive home and pretend that I've been to drive home and pretend that I've been to drive home and pretend that I've been to the post office or something. the post office or something. the post office or something. >> Yeah. Wow. >> Yeah. Wow. >> Yeah. Wow. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Jennis, what's so interesting is if you >> Jennis, what's so interesting is if you >> Jennis, what's so interesting is if you did that with anything else did that with anything else did that with anything else >> like alcohol or cocaine, right? >> like alcohol or cocaine, right? >> like alcohol or cocaine, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> People would naturally go, >> People would naturally go, >> People would naturally go, >> you've really got a problem. >> you've really got a problem. >> you've really got a problem. >> You got a problem here. Right. You're >> You got a problem here. Right. You're >> You got a problem here. Right. You're lying to your husband. lying to your husband. lying to your husband. >> You're nipping out of the house. You're >> You're nipping out of the house. You're >> You're nipping out of the house. You're you're you're shooting up with your drug you're you're shooting up with your drug you're you're shooting up with your drug of choice in the car of choice in the car of choice in the car >> in the car and then you get back and you >> in the car and then you get back and you >> in the car and then you get back and you are dishonest about where you've been. are dishonest about where you've been. are dishonest about where you've been. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Because you feel so ashamed and you it >> Because you feel so ashamed and you it >> Because you feel so ashamed and you it it you know it's out of control. So you it you know it's out of control. So you it you know it's out of control. So you you don't want to talk about it because you don't want to talk about it because you don't want to talk about it because also the other thing is that the also the other thing is that the also the other thing is that the addiction addiction addiction want to put it into words really it it want to put it into words really it it want to put it into words really it it wants you to keep getting the substance wants you to keep getting the substance wants you to keep getting the substance so it doesn't want you to talk about it. so it doesn't want you to talk about it. so it doesn't want you to talk about it. >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, we've got cravings >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, we've got cravings >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, we've got cravings um that feel so strong that you can't um that feel so strong that you can't um that feel so strong that you can't resist. resist. resist. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> R is uh readiness for more. >> R is uh readiness for more. >> R is uh readiness for more. >> Reaching for more. >> Reaching for more. >> Reaching for more. >> Reaching for more. >> Reaching for more. >> Reaching for more. >> Tolerance. The idea of tolerance. >> Tolerance. The idea of tolerance. >> Tolerance. The idea of tolerance. >> Okay. And A is, you know, activities >> Okay. And A is, you know, activities >> Okay. And A is, you know, activities neglected. Okay. I I reckon already on neglected. Okay. I I reckon already on neglected. Okay. I I reckon already on those three, there'll be people those three, there'll be people those three, there'll be people listening right now. If you're watching listening right now. If you're watching listening right now. If you're watching it on YouTube, guys, let us know in the it on YouTube, guys, let us know in the it on YouTube, guys, let us know in the comments where you're up to with this. comments where you're up to with this. comments where you're up to with this. Uh okay. What about VED? So V is for Uh okay. What about VED? So V is for Uh okay. What about VED? So V is for volume. And this is losing control of volume. And this is losing control of volume. And this is losing control of the amount, which is this thing we we the amount, which is this thing we we the amount, which is this thing we we said one's too many, a thousand is never said one's too many, a thousand is never said one's too many, a thousand is never enough. So maybe, you know, it's pizza enough. So maybe, you know, it's pizza enough. So maybe, you know, it's pizza night with the kids and you say, "Right, night with the kids and you say, "Right, night with the kids and you say, "Right, I'm I'm just going to have one slice I'm I'm just going to have one slice I'm I'm just going to have one slice because I'm on a diet this week. One because I'm on a diet this week. One because I'm on a diet this week. One slice with salad." And then it it can't slice with salad." And then it it can't slice with salad." And then it it can't be one slice because you you end up be one slice because you you end up be one slice because you you end up wanting two, three slices. The kids have wanting two, three slices. The kids have wanting two, three slices. The kids have gone to bed. You eat you have what have gone to bed. You eat you have what have gone to bed. You eat you have what have the leftovers, you know, you lose the leftovers, you know, you lose the leftovers, you know, you lose control of the volume. So V is for control of the volume. So V is for control of the volume. So V is for volume. volume. volume. >> E >> E >> E >> E is for exclusion. And this is the idea >> E is for exclusion. And this is the idea >> E is for exclusion. And this is the idea of withdrawal symptoms which everybody of withdrawal symptoms which everybody of withdrawal symptoms which everybody will recognize in terms of any other will recognize in terms of any other will recognize in terms of any other addiction. We know that one of the key addiction. We know that one of the key addiction. We know that one of the key problems of problems of problems of quitting any addictive substance is that quitting any addictive substance is that quitting any addictive substance is that you get withdrawal symptoms. So for you get withdrawal symptoms. So for you get withdrawal symptoms. So for example, I quit caffeine a few years example, I quit caffeine a few years example, I quit caffeine a few years ago. I suffered quite badly with ago. I suffered quite badly with ago. I suffered quite badly with withdrawal symptoms that were clearly withdrawal symptoms that were clearly withdrawal symptoms that were clearly physiological. physiological. physiological. Same for alcohol. We know people get Same for alcohol. We know people get Same for alcohol. We know people get withdrawal symptoms, nicotine. So, um, withdrawal symptoms, nicotine. So, um, withdrawal symptoms, nicotine. So, um, with sugar and ultrarocessed foods, you with sugar and ultrarocessed foods, you with sugar and ultrarocessed foods, you can get can get can get sort of hypo sort of shaky feelings, you sort of hypo sort of shaky feelings, you sort of hypo sort of shaky feelings, you can get headaches, you can get can get headaches, you can get can get headaches, you can get gastrointestinal problems, sleep gastrointestinal problems, sleep gastrointestinal problems, sleep problems, mood problems. Everybody problems, mood problems. Everybody problems, mood problems. Everybody recognizes that people can be grumpy as, recognizes that people can be grumpy as, recognizes that people can be grumpy as, you know, they even market foods, don't you know, they even market foods, don't you know, they even market foods, don't they? Saying, you know, you're very they? Saying, you know, you're very they? Saying, you know, you're very grumpy, so you ought to have a chocolate grumpy, so you ought to have a chocolate grumpy, so you ought to have a chocolate bar. I saw an advert like that recently. bar. I saw an advert like that recently. bar. I saw an advert like that recently. It's like It's like It's like >> it's all there. It's it's hiding in >> it's all there. It's it's hiding in >> it's all there. It's it's hiding in plain sight. basically the problematic plain sight. basically the problematic plain sight. basically the problematic relationship, isn't it? relationship, isn't it? relationship, isn't it? >> They're actually marketing it as a cure >> They're actually marketing it as a cure >> They're actually marketing it as a cure for the withdrawal symptom that it for the withdrawal symptom that it for the withdrawal symptom that it caused. Yeah. So, um yeah, so ease for caused. Yeah. So, um yeah, so ease for caused. Yeah. So, um yeah, so ease for an exclusion. So, if you get um an exclusion. So, if you get um an exclusion. So, if you get um withdrawal symptoms when you try and withdrawal symptoms when you try and withdrawal symptoms when you try and quit and of course this is one reason quit and of course this is one reason quit and of course this is one reason like you were saying people can't stay like you were saying people can't stay like you were saying people can't stay abstinent and it's because oftenimes abstinent and it's because oftenimes abstinent and it's because oftenimes they haven't even got through the proper they haven't even got through the proper they haven't even got through the proper sort of physiological withdrawal phase sort of physiological withdrawal phase sort of physiological withdrawal phase because it's awful. because it's awful. because it's awful. >> How long does it typically take for >> How long does it typically take for >> How long does it typically take for people? Typically I would say uh when I people? Typically I would say uh when I people? Typically I would say uh when I most people would say maybe seven six most people would say maybe seven six most people would say maybe seven six seven eight days for the sort of seven eight days for the sort of seven eight days for the sort of physiological withdrawal obviously after physiological withdrawal obviously after physiological withdrawal obviously after that you still get cravings to some that you still get cravings to some that you still get cravings to some extent but you shouldn't your physiology extent but you shouldn't your physiology extent but you shouldn't your physiology should be should be should be >> so it's quite a bit of time you have to >> so it's quite a bit of time you have to >> so it's quite a bit of time you have to be ready before you go through to go be ready before you go through to go be ready before you go through to go through through through >> that sort of valley >> that sort of valley >> that sort of valley >> but if you want to do it cold turkey >> but if you want to do it cold turkey >> but if you want to do it cold turkey we're going to probably come on to we're going to probably come on to we're going to probably come on to talking about how people might talking about how people might talking about how people might >> shift towards being more abstinent you >> shift towards being more abstinent you >> shift towards being more abstinent you don't have to do it cold turkey. That's don't have to do it cold turkey. That's don't have to do it cold turkey. That's just the way that I like to do things. just the way that I like to do things. just the way that I like to do things. >> Okay. So, V for volume, E for exclusion, >> Okay. So, V for volume, E for exclusion, >> Okay. So, V for volume, E for exclusion, and and and >> V is this is the big one really and it's >> V is this is the big one really and it's >> V is this is the big one really and it's it's the defining it's the defining it's the defining characteristic of any addiction. It's characteristic of any addiction. It's characteristic of any addiction. It's continued use despite continued use despite continued use despite damage. So, even if you know, so for damage. So, even if you know, so for damage. So, even if you know, so for example, cigarettes, everybody knows example, cigarettes, everybody knows example, cigarettes, everybody knows they're bad for you and there's a they're bad for you and there's a they're bad for you and there's a horrible picture on the thing. Even so, horrible picture on the thing. Even so, horrible picture on the thing. Even so, you're gonna smoke that cigarette. you're gonna smoke that cigarette. you're gonna smoke that cigarette. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, it's the same with with sugar and >> So, it's the same with with sugar and >> So, it's the same with with sugar and ultrarocessed foods. Maybe you've got a ultrarocessed foods. Maybe you've got a ultrarocessed foods. Maybe you've got a diagnosis of type two diabetes. diagnosis of type two diabetes. diagnosis of type two diabetes. You know, maybe you you know, you're You know, maybe you you know, you're You know, maybe you you know, you're overweight and sort of metabolically not overweight and sort of metabolically not overweight and sort of metabolically not healthy. You'd rather, you know, be healthy. You'd rather, you know, be healthy. You'd rather, you know, be losing weight losing weight losing weight even though you've maybe depressed and even though you've maybe depressed and even though you've maybe depressed and you know that the way that you eat is you know that the way that you eat is you know that the way that you eat is affecting your mental health because you affecting your mental health because you affecting your mental health because you you know, you you feel that's the case. you know, you you feel that's the case. you know, you you feel that's the case. Even so, you you can't quit. You're Even so, you you can't quit. You're Even so, you you can't quit. You're you're continuing to use you're continuing to use you're continuing to use these ultrarocessed foods and sugars to these ultrarocessed foods and sugars to these ultrarocessed foods and sugars to to kind of feel better. So, you're on to kind of feel better. So, you're on to kind of feel better. So, you're on that terrible treadmill. So, um yeah, that terrible treadmill. So, um yeah, that terrible treadmill. So, um yeah, despite knowing it's doing you harm, you despite knowing it's doing you harm, you despite knowing it's doing you harm, you struggling to quit. I struggling to quit. I struggling to quit. I >> mean, I imagine anyone who's got a >> mean, I imagine anyone who's got a >> mean, I imagine anyone who's got a problematic relationship with any food problematic relationship with any food problematic relationship with any food will score will score will score >> on the D. Well, they'll definitely score >> on the D. Well, they'll definitely score >> on the D. Well, they'll definitely score on the D because on the D because on the D because >> they wanted change. >> they wanted change. >> they wanted change. >> Exactly. They're wanting to change. >> Exactly. They're wanting to change. >> Exactly. They're wanting to change. They're wanting to be healthier. But and They're wanting to be healthier. But and They're wanting to be healthier. But and despite knowing the problems of that despite knowing the problems of that despite knowing the problems of that food, they can't stop eating it. food, they can't stop eating it. food, they can't stop eating it. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So, did you score six out of six? >> So, did you score six out of six? >> So, did you score six out of six? >> I I've always scored six. >> I I've always scored six. >> I I've always scored six. >> So, the maximum score is six. >> So, the maximum score is six. >> So, the maximum score is six. >> The maximum score is six. Fine. Yes. >> The maximum score is six. Fine. Yes. >> The maximum score is six. Fine. Yes. >> So, what if So, someone uh like you uh >> So, what if So, someone uh like you uh >> So, what if So, someone uh like you uh in the past would score six. in the past would score six. in the past would score six. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> What if someone just scores a one on >> What if someone just scores a one on >> What if someone just scores a one on that? So, go um yeah, you know what? I I that? So, go um yeah, you know what? I I that? So, go um yeah, you know what? I I sometimes have a craving for sometimes have a craving for sometimes have a craving for that food that I I can't something about that food that I I can't something about that food that I I can't something about it, but you know, it doesn't affect the it, but you know, it doesn't affect the it, but you know, it doesn't affect the rest of my life. I don't reach them all. rest of my life. I don't reach them all. rest of my life. I don't reach them all. I don't have a loss of control on I don't have a loss of control on I don't have a loss of control on volume. Do you know what I mean? volume. Do you know what I mean? volume. Do you know what I mean? >> So, that would be amazing. One or two. >> So, that would be amazing. One or two. >> So, that would be amazing. One or two. >> It's sort of normal. >> It's sort of normal. >> It's sort of normal. >> That's kind of normal. And I would say >> That's kind of normal. And I would say >> That's kind of normal. And I would say great, just be be careful, be aware that great, just be be careful, be aware that great, just be be careful, be aware that these these foods, these these foods, these these foods, you know, can be doing harm to the you know, can be doing harm to the you know, can be doing harm to the brain. you know, you don't want to have brain. you know, you don't want to have brain. you know, you don't want to have loads of them if if you can. So, I do loads of them if if you can. So, I do loads of them if if you can. So, I do know the occasional, but my know the occasional, but my know the occasional, but my mother-in-law, in fact, has has biscuits mother-in-law, in fact, has has biscuits mother-in-law, in fact, has has biscuits in her cupboard that have been there in her cupboard that have been there in her cupboard that have been there about six years. So, she can she can about six years. So, she can she can about six years. So, she can she can take them or leave them. She'll have take them or leave them. She'll have take them or leave them. She'll have one. And um one. And um one. And um >> and people like that, >> and people like that, >> and people like that, >> cuz they exist. >> cuz they exist. >> cuz they exist. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And I don't I'm taking this beyond your >> And I don't I'm taking this beyond your >> And I don't I'm taking this beyond your mother-in-law. Just for people who have mother-in-law. Just for people who have mother-in-law. Just for people who have a relationship with food that they can a relationship with food that they can a relationship with food that they can have it now and again. have it now and again. have it now and again. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. The problem is I think sometimes they The problem is I think sometimes they The problem is I think sometimes they can't understand what it's like for can't understand what it's like for can't understand what it's like for people who don't have that. Right. people who don't have that. Right. people who don't have that. Right. >> Exactly. So she really struggled with >> Exactly. So she really struggled with >> Exactly. So she really struggled with what it was like to be me and that I what it was like to be me and that I what it was like to be me and that I couldn't she and she's a lovely cook as couldn't she and she's a lovely cook as couldn't she and she's a lovely cook as well. So she'd make me this amazing well. So she'd make me this amazing well. So she'd make me this amazing cheesecake which was my favorite thing. cheesecake which was my favorite thing. cheesecake which was my favorite thing. >> Fat, sugar. >> Fat, sugar. >> Fat, sugar. >> Yeah. A bit of salt in the digestive but >> Yeah. A bit of salt in the digestive but >> Yeah. A bit of salt in the digestive but yeah delicious. Um and I I had to say, yeah delicious. Um and I I had to say, yeah delicious. Um and I I had to say, you know, I it's amazing. I love it. I you know, I it's amazing. I love it. I you know, I it's amazing. I love it. I just I'm not going to have any because just I'm not going to have any because just I'm not going to have any because if I have one slice, I'm going to eat if I have one slice, I'm going to eat if I have one slice, I'm going to eat half the thing. Um, and it's taken her a half the thing. Um, and it's taken her a half the thing. Um, and it's taken her a long time to really long time to really long time to really see that that can be she intellectually see that that can be she intellectually see that that can be she intellectually understands it. Um, but I think people understands it. Um, but I think people understands it. Um, but I think people have to really take the the leap to be have to really take the the leap to be have to really take the the leap to be able to say, "Yeah, I understand even able to say, "Yeah, I understand even able to say, "Yeah, I understand even though that isn't my problem." You know, though that isn't my problem." You know, though that isn't my problem." You know, that if if somebody tells you, you know, that if if somebody tells you, you know, that if if somebody tells you, you know, I'm trying to quit sugar, please support I'm trying to quit sugar, please support I'm trying to quit sugar, please support me. then please support them because it me. then please support them because it me. then please support them because it is really really a hard thing to do. is really really a hard thing to do. is really really a hard thing to do. Exactly like alcohol. So if you had a Exactly like alcohol. So if you had a Exactly like alcohol. So if you had a friend that was quitting alcohol, you friend that was quitting alcohol, you friend that was quitting alcohol, you wouldn't take them to the pub or bake wouldn't take them to the pub or bake wouldn't take them to the pub or bake them um you know bring them a special them um you know bring them a special them um you know bring them a special bottle of whiskey cuz it was a birthday. bottle of whiskey cuz it was a birthday. bottle of whiskey cuz it was a birthday. You'd encourage them. You'd say, "Let's You'd encourage them. You'd say, "Let's You'd encourage them. You'd say, "Let's go a walk." You know um I made you a go a walk." You know um I made you a go a walk." You know um I made you a nice meal. Um you know, well done you. nice meal. Um you know, well done you. nice meal. Um you know, well done you. You you'd really encourage them. You you'd really encourage them. You you'd really encourage them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We're getting into possible strategies We're getting into possible strategies We're getting into possible strategies that people can use and I I want to be that people can use and I I want to be that people can use and I I want to be mindful of the fact that not everyone mindful of the fact that not everyone mindful of the fact that not everyone listening is going to identify full on listening is going to identify full on listening is going to identify full on six out of six. No, six out of six. No, six out of six. No, >> right? Some are going to be you know at >> right? Some are going to be you know at >> right? Some are going to be you know at three which still qualifies I guess three which still qualifies I guess three which still qualifies I guess >> two or so three um you know maybe so >> two or so three um you know maybe so >> two or so three um you know maybe so it's a bit more like with sort of saying it's a bit more like with sort of saying it's a bit more like with sort of saying in quotes harmful use you know maybe in quotes harmful use you know maybe in quotes harmful use you know maybe there are times or vulnerabilities when there are times or vulnerabilities when there are times or vulnerabilities when you're eating too many of those kinds of you're eating too many of those kinds of you're eating too many of those kinds of foods foods foods >> or could it be for some people like I >> or could it be for some people like I >> or could it be for some people like I certainly would recognize this myself >> you know if you're super stressed or >> you know if you're super stressed or there's stuff going on or one of your there's stuff going on or one of your there's stuff going on or one of your family members isn't Well, family members isn't Well, family members isn't Well, you might go to these things, these you might go to these things, these you might go to these things, these foods as, you know, just a coping foods as, you know, just a coping foods as, you know, just a coping mechanism basically. mechanism basically. mechanism basically. >> Yeah, David's more in this category as >> Yeah, David's more in this category as >> Yeah, David's more in this category as well. well. well. >> For people who don't know, David is your >> For people who don't know, David is your >> For people who don't know, David is your husband, Dr. David Unwin, who was on the husband, Dr. David Unwin, who was on the husband, Dr. David Unwin, who was on the podcast a few months ago now. Very podcast a few months ago now. Very podcast a few months ago now. Very popular episode talking about all his popular episode talking about all his popular episode talking about all his work with low carb diets, reversing type work with low carb diets, reversing type work with low carb diets, reversing type 2 diabetes and metabolic dysfunction. 2 diabetes and metabolic dysfunction. 2 diabetes and metabolic dysfunction. So, continue just in case people haven't So, continue just in case people haven't So, continue just in case people haven't heard that one. heard that one. heard that one. >> Yes. So, he was definitely a harmful >> Yes. So, he was definitely a harmful >> Yes. So, he was definitely a harmful user. He did he did develop type two user. He did he did develop type two user. He did he did develop type two diabetes and that was because he did you diabetes and that was because he did you diabetes and that was because he did you know he did have a sweet tooth and he know he did have a sweet tooth and he know he did have a sweet tooth and he did love all those foods but he wasn't did love all those foods but he wasn't did love all those foods but he wasn't he could come back from holiday and just he could come back from holiday and just he could come back from holiday and just go right I'm having a healthy week and go right I'm having a healthy week and go right I'm having a healthy week and just that was fine he he could do that just that was fine he he could do that just that was fine he he could do that very easily um he could sort of reset um very easily um he could sort of reset um very easily um he could sort of reset um and not eat those foods whereas I would and not eat those foods whereas I would and not eat those foods whereas I would come back from a holiday and if we'd come back from a holiday and if we'd come back from a holiday and if we'd kind of overindulge on those kinds of kind of overindulge on those kinds of kind of overindulge on those kinds of foods I would would find it really foods I would would find it really foods I would would find it really really hard to sort of pull back you really hard to sort of pull back you really hard to sort of pull back you know the the the the know the the the the know the the the the lid was off if you like. So, lid was off if you like. So, lid was off if you like. So, >> so you identify as a food addict and >> so you identify as a food addict and >> so you identify as a food addict and David does not. David does not. David does not. >> He does not. >> He does not. >> He does not. >> Okay, that's really interesting. >> Okay, that's really interesting. >> Okay, that's really interesting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, let's think about these >> Okay. So, let's think about these >> Okay. So, let's think about these practical strategies. You mentioned practical strategies. You mentioned practical strategies. You mentioned already that cold turkey is one option, already that cold turkey is one option, already that cold turkey is one option, but it's not the only option. So, but it's not the only option. So, but it's not the only option. So, >> if someone has basically identified with >> if someone has basically identified with >> if someone has basically identified with several of those on on the craved several of those on on the craved several of those on on the craved questionnaire, they g, you know, I think questionnaire, they g, you know, I think questionnaire, they g, you know, I think I've got a problematic relationship with I've got a problematic relationship with I've got a problematic relationship with certain foods some of the time. certain foods some of the time. certain foods some of the time. >> How do you start advising them? They >> How do you start advising them? They >> How do you start advising them? They want to start changing that basically. want to start changing that basically. want to start changing that basically. I've been using Boncharge wellness I've been using Boncharge wellness I've been using Boncharge wellness products for over 5 years. From red products for over 5 years. 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So number one is we talked right at the beginning about this lighthouse at the beginning about this lighthouse at the beginning about this lighthouse about why well why would you want to about why well why would you want to about why well why would you want to change because it's actually going to be change because it's actually going to be change because it's actually going to be quite hard. So what's your guiding quite hard. So what's your guiding quite hard. So what's your guiding light? What's going to really keep you light? What's going to really keep you light? What's going to really keep you going when the cravings come? What going when the cravings come? What going when the cravings come? What what's your reason for wanting to change what's your reason for wanting to change what's your reason for wanting to change your relationship with foods? You know your relationship with foods? You know your relationship with foods? You know and and kind of you know just saying oh and and kind of you know just saying oh and and kind of you know just saying oh I want to lose weight isn't isn't a good I want to lose weight isn't isn't a good I want to lose weight isn't isn't a good enough reason. You know what would be enough reason. You know what would be enough reason. You know what would be better if you lost weight? What would be better if you lost weight? What would be better if you lost weight? What would be different about your life? you know what different about your life? you know what different about your life? you know what what what why do you want to do this and what what why do you want to do this and what what why do you want to do this and what's that sort of motivation? So it what's that sort of motivation? So it what's that sort of motivation? So it might be to do with you know your kids might be to do with you know your kids might be to do with you know your kids being able to play with the kids or you being able to play with the kids or you being able to play with the kids or you know staying alive long enough to see know staying alive long enough to see know staying alive long enough to see the the kids do certain things. You the the kids do certain things. You the the kids do certain things. You maybe want to be an example to the to maybe want to be an example to the to maybe want to be an example to the to the kids but finding some some real the kids but finding some some real the kids but finding some some real motivation is is is probably step one. motivation is is is probably step one. motivation is is is probably step one. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Step two is being totally honest >> Step two is being totally honest >> Step two is being totally honest brutally honest about the the drug foods brutally honest about the the drug foods brutally honest about the the drug foods again in quotes. Which which foods again in quotes. Which which foods again in quotes. Which which foods occupy your mind occupy your mind occupy your mind might you have a secret stash or often might you have a secret stash or often might you have a secret stash or often food addicts have secret stashes of food addicts have secret stashes of food addicts have secret stashes of their favorite things cuz they don't their favorite things cuz they don't their favorite things cuz they don't want to run out. um you know what what want to run out. um you know what what want to run out. um you know what what are those things you know what are you are those things you know what are you are those things you know what are you kind of literally thinking it's going to kind of literally thinking it's going to kind of literally thinking it's going to be really hard to live without it's be really hard to live without it's be really hard to live without it's nearly always the things David has lots nearly always the things David has lots nearly always the things David has lots of patients who say I literally can't of patients who say I literally can't of patients who say I literally can't live without I couldn't live without live without I couldn't live without live without I couldn't live without bread bread bread >> you know lots of people it's not sweet >> you know lots of people it's not sweet >> you know lots of people it's not sweet things always it's s it can be savory things always it's s it can be savory things always it's s it can be savory things as well and bread is such a things as well and bread is such a things as well and bread is such a common one actually so if there are common one actually so if there are common one actually so if there are foods like that that you're saying I foods like that that you're saying I foods like that that you're saying I couldn't live without probably that's something to think about probably that's something to think about and I would, you know, make a make an an and I would, you know, make a make an an and I would, you know, make a make an an honest list of all the the foods um that honest list of all the the foods um that honest list of all the the foods um that you're having where the relationship is you're having where the relationship is you're having where the relationship is that one of loss of control. that one of loss of control. that one of loss of control. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Cravings, needing more and more, losing >> Cravings, needing more and more, losing >> Cravings, needing more and more, losing control of the amount, control of the amount, control of the amount, continuing to have them even though you continuing to have them even though you continuing to have them even though you you know you they're doing you harm. you know you they're doing you harm. you know you they're doing you harm. >> Yeah. I've heard you say that you often >> Yeah. I've heard you say that you often >> Yeah. I've heard you say that you often ask people to write down a list. you ask people to write down a list. you ask people to write down a list. you know, I lose control over and then know, I lose control over and then know, I lose control over and then actually write down those foods. There's actually write down those foods. There's actually write down those foods. There's something powerful about writing and something powerful about writing and something powerful about writing and something is you can think about it and something is you can think about it and something is you can think about it and go, "Yeah, yeah." But I think well, we go, "Yeah, yeah." But I think well, we go, "Yeah, yeah." But I think well, we know there's incredible benefits to know there's incredible benefits to know there's incredible benefits to journaling. I think one of the benefits journaling. I think one of the benefits journaling. I think one of the benefits is that you see it in front of you. is that you see it in front of you. is that you see it in front of you. You've had to take it out of your brain. You've had to take it out of your brain. You've had to take it out of your brain. >> Put it down. >> Put it down. >> Put it down. >> Put it down. You You see it back. It >> Put it down. You You see it back. It >> Put it down. You You see it back. It kind of makes it real, I think, in a way kind of makes it real, I think, in a way kind of makes it real, I think, in a way that just thinking about things often that just thinking about things often that just thinking about things often doesn't. doesn't. doesn't. >> Yes. No. AB: Absolutely. And the other >> Yes. No. AB: Absolutely. And the other >> Yes. No. AB: Absolutely. And the other thing we we didn't I didn't mention thing we we didn't I didn't mention thing we we didn't I didn't mention about when we when our brains in that about when we when our brains in that about when we when our brains in that state of high dopamine and um that sort state of high dopamine and um that sort state of high dopamine and um that sort of reward centers flowing. Another thing of reward centers flowing. Another thing of reward centers flowing. Another thing that happens is it actually cuts us off that happens is it actually cuts us off that happens is it actually cuts us off from our frontal loes. And again they from our frontal loes. And again they from our frontal loes. And again they think this is probably an evolutionary think this is probably an evolutionary think this is probably an evolutionary thing that when you were driven to go thing that when you were driven to go thing that when you were driven to go and hunt you had to in a way not think and hunt you had to in a way not think and hunt you had to in a way not think about it too much because you it's about it too much because you it's about it too much because you it's dangerous. So you you may have decided dangerous. So you you may have decided dangerous. So you you may have decided oh we won't bother today. No, you needed oh we won't bother today. No, you needed oh we won't bother today. No, you needed to be really driven. So, our frontal to be really driven. So, our frontal to be really driven. So, our frontal loes are a bit cut off. So, in the in loes are a bit cut off. So, in the in loes are a bit cut off. So, in the in the moment of the cravings and the the moment of the cravings and the the moment of the cravings and the eating and the our frontal loes aren't eating and the our frontal loes aren't eating and the our frontal loes aren't really So, you can't think your way out really So, you can't think your way out really So, you can't think your way out of addiction. You have to sort of plan of addiction. You have to sort of plan of addiction. You have to sort of plan your way out. So, and one way is to be your way out. So, and one way is to be your way out. So, and one way is to be writing things down, to be really clear, writing things down, to be really clear, writing things down, to be really clear, and to be making a plan because then and to be making a plan because then and to be making a plan because then you've you've sort of you've put your you've you've sort of you've put your you've you've sort of you've put your frontal loes on on the paper, if you frontal loes on on the paper, if you frontal loes on on the paper, if you like, and you've done that at a time like, and you've done that at a time like, and you've done that at a time when you your brain's working properly. when you your brain's working properly. when you your brain's working properly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Once you once you're once you're in the >> Once you once you're once you're in the >> Once you once you're once you're in the food, it's really food, it's really food, it's really >> hard to stop that behavior when you're >> hard to stop that behavior when you're >> hard to stop that behavior when you're on the runway. on the runway. on the runway. >> So, yeah. So, write it down. Um, >> So, yeah. So, write it down. Um, >> So, yeah. So, write it down. Um, >> I think you said that one of the things >> I think you said that one of the things >> I think you said that one of the things you asked people to write down is I know you asked people to write down is I know you asked people to write down is I know I'm in trouble when I'm in trouble when I'm in trouble when >> Oh yes, that's such such a good one. >> Oh yes, that's such such a good one. >> Oh yes, that's such such a good one. >> I think that's such a great piece of >> I think that's such a great piece of >> I think that's such a great piece of advice. advice. advice. >> Yes. I know I'm in trouble when and >> Yes. I know I'm in trouble when and >> Yes. I know I'm in trouble when and that's the moment before that's the moment before that's the moment before you know you're going to get on that you know you're going to get on that you know you're going to get on that runway. So for example, one of my ones runway. So for example, one of my ones runway. So for example, one of my ones would be I know I'm in trouble when I'm would be I know I'm in trouble when I'm would be I know I'm in trouble when I'm randomly opening kitchen doors, cupboard randomly opening kitchen doors, cupboard randomly opening kitchen doors, cupboard doors in the kitchen. I don't know if doors in the kitchen. I don't know if doors in the kitchen. I don't know if you ever do that and you're not even you ever do that and you're not even you ever do that and you're not even hungry, especially when you just kind of hungry, especially when you just kind of hungry, especially when you just kind of I'm just going to have a look what's in I'm just going to have a look what's in I'm just going to have a look what's in here. Um, and here. Um, and here. Um, and >> does anyone not do that? >> does anyone not do that? >> does anyone not do that? >> If you're unlucky, there are things in >> If you're unlucky, there are things in >> If you're unlucky, there are things in there you probably shouldn't be having. there you probably shouldn't be having. there you probably shouldn't be having. So, another another thing that we'll So, another another thing that we'll So, another another thing that we'll talk about is that you can really talk about is that you can really talk about is that you can really engineer your own environment to support engineer your own environment to support engineer your own environment to support your recovery. But just I'm looking in your recovery. But just I'm looking in your recovery. But just I'm looking in there and of course if there was there and of course if there was there and of course if there was chocolate in there and I was, you know, chocolate in there and I was, you know, chocolate in there and I was, you know, I'd had a long day or something I'd had a long day or something I'd had a long day or something stressful going on or I was hungry, stressful going on or I was hungry, stressful going on or I was hungry, angry, lonely, tired, bored, I I might angry, lonely, tired, bored, I I might angry, lonely, tired, bored, I I might succumb if I saw it because then the succumb if I saw it because then the succumb if I saw it because then the minute I see it, the bra the dopamine's minute I see it, the bra the dopamine's minute I see it, the bra the dopamine's already going on the visual cues. already going on the visual cues. already going on the visual cues. >> Yeah. And that's how the, of course, >> Yeah. And that's how the, of course, >> Yeah. And that's how the, of course, that's how the marketing works for all that's how the marketing works for all that's how the marketing works for all these, you know, companies that have these, you know, companies that have these, you know, companies that have their branding, you know, the their branding, you know, the their branding, you know, the >> well, we won't mention any, but >> well, we won't mention any, but >> well, we won't mention any, but everybody knows the branding for the the everybody knows the branding for the the everybody knows the branding for the the big companies. And it's almost like the big companies. And it's almost like the big companies. And it's almost like the minute you see that branding or that minute you see that branding or that minute you see that branding or that advertising, advertising, advertising, >> that's why they advertise in the evening >> that's why they advertise in the evening >> that's why they advertise in the evening on the on the television because we're on the on the television because we're on the on the television because we're all vulnerable. Willow's gone. all vulnerable. Willow's gone. all vulnerable. Willow's gone. >> Willpower's absolutely gone. was sitting >> Willpower's absolutely gone. was sitting >> Willpower's absolutely gone. was sitting watching the telly get on to whoever del watching the telly get on to whoever del watching the telly get on to whoever del you know delivers the you know delivers the you know delivers the >> of course made it hard because >> of course made it hard because >> of course made it hard because you don't even need to go out anymore you don't even need to go out anymore you don't even need to go out anymore and go and you can get it delivered to and go and you can get it delivered to and go and you can get it delivered to you know while she's still on the sofa you know while she's still on the sofa you know while she's still on the sofa watching which of course for people who watching which of course for people who watching which of course for people who are prone to that makes it really are prone to that makes it really are prone to that makes it really difficult this idea of writing down I difficult this idea of writing down I difficult this idea of writing down I know I'm in trouble when and as you said know I'm in trouble when and as you said know I'm in trouble when and as you said for you when I'm randomly opening for you when I'm randomly opening for you when I'm randomly opening cupboards in the kitchen looking for cupboards in the kitchen looking for cupboards in the kitchen looking for something something something >> which of course may not be physical >> which of course may not be physical >> which of course may not be physical hunger it's more likely be emotional hunger it's more likely be emotional hunger it's more likely be emotional hunger hunger hunger >> reminds me of something literally >> reminds me of something literally >> reminds me of something literally earlier this week um a chap called near earlier this week um a chap called near earlier this week um a chap called near Iel was in the studio he's an author Iel was in the studio he's an author Iel was in the studio he's an author >> his latest book is called beyond belief >> his latest book is called beyond belief >> his latest book is called beyond belief and and and in that book and in our podcast together in that book and in our podcast together in that book and in our podcast together he shared how he was trying to lose he shared how he was trying to lose he shared how he was trying to lose weight for years and he said every diet weight for years and he said every diet weight for years and he said every diet worked when I was on it worked when I was on it worked when I was on it >> yes >> yes >> yes >> okay >> okay >> okay >> but he didn't stay on many of them for >> but he didn't stay on many of them for >> but he didn't stay on many of them for long and he explains what changed but long and he explains what changed but long and he explains what changed but one of the um tactics he spoke about one of the um tactics he spoke about one of the um tactics he spoke about beyond food. This is just for making beyond food. This is just for making beyond food. This is just for making change in life. change in life. change in life. >> It's something called mental >> It's something called mental >> It's something called mental contrasting. contrasting. contrasting. >> And a lot of people only imagine best >> And a lot of people only imagine best >> And a lot of people only imagine best case scenarios, right? So on January the case scenarios, right? So on January the case scenarios, right? So on January the first, oh, you know, I'm going to eat first, oh, you know, I'm going to eat first, oh, you know, I'm going to eat well this year and go to the gym. Like well this year and go to the gym. Like well this year and go to the gym. Like you're just imagining best case you're just imagining best case you're just imagining best case scenario. scenario. scenario. >> Yeah. and he was talking and I think >> Yeah. and he was talking and I think >> Yeah. and he was talking and I think it's very similar to your exercise about it's very similar to your exercise about it's very similar to your exercise about this idea that when he started to get this idea that when he started to get this idea that when he started to get really good with his choices or or he really good with his choices or or he really good with his choices or or he was making better choices for his goal, was making better choices for his goal, was making better choices for his goal, he was also planning he was also planning he was also planning what happens when I'm out for dinner and what happens when I'm out for dinner and what happens when I'm out for dinner and someone offers me chocolate cake. Yeah. someone offers me chocolate cake. Yeah. someone offers me chocolate cake. Yeah. >> Right. Cuz I know I'm going to be >> Right. Cuz I know I'm going to be >> Right. Cuz I know I'm going to be tempted. tempted. tempted. >> So I guess he was calling this mental >> So I guess he was calling this mental >> So I guess he was calling this mental contrasting, but it's the same kind of contrasting, but it's the same kind of contrasting, but it's the same kind of approach, isn't it? It's like you have approach, isn't it? It's like you have approach, isn't it? It's like you have to rehearse it. You have to plan when to rehearse it. You have to plan when to rehearse it. You have to plan when your frontal cortex, your rational brain your frontal cortex, your rational brain your frontal cortex, your rational brain is online, not when it's offline and is online, not when it's offline and is online, not when it's offline and maybe you've had a couple of glasses of maybe you've had a couple of glasses of maybe you've had a couple of glasses of wine and you're like, "Yeah, yeah, go wine and you're like, "Yeah, yeah, go wine and you're like, "Yeah, yeah, go on, I'll have it." on, I'll have it." on, I'll have it." >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And so, let's say someone wants because >> And so, let's say someone wants because >> And so, let's say someone wants because I think peer pressure I think peer pressure I think peer pressure >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> is really hard, right? And you've worked >> is really hard, right? And you've worked >> is really hard, right? And you've worked with so many patients and clients to with so many patients and clients to with so many patients and clients to help them through this, right? So if help them through this, right? So if help them through this, right? So if someone says, "Look, when I'm left to my someone says, "Look, when I'm left to my someone says, "Look, when I'm left to my own devices, I'm pretty good own devices, I'm pretty good own devices, I'm pretty good >> at home >> at home >> at home or at work when it's someone's birthday or at work when it's someone's birthday or at work when it's someone's birthday and they bring the quality street in or and they bring the quality street in or and they bring the quality street in or the the the the homebaked cakes or the the the the homebaked cakes or the the the the homebaked cakes or whatever." whatever." whatever." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And people come around and say, "Oh, >> And people come around and say, "Oh, >> And people come around and say, "Oh, it's fine. It's just one, right? One's it's fine. It's just one, right? One's it's fine. It's just one, right? One's not going to do you any harm." What not going to do you any harm." What not going to do you any harm." What advice do you have for that individual? advice do you have for that individual? advice do you have for that individual? How can they handle that scenario? Yeah, How can they handle that scenario? Yeah, How can they handle that scenario? Yeah, it it it's really hard for people in the it it it's really hard for people in the it it it's really hard for people in the beginning because you're beginning because you're beginning because you're kind of uh trying to change how people kind of uh trying to change how people kind of uh trying to change how people see you to some extent, aren't you? And see you to some extent, aren't you? And see you to some extent, aren't you? And you know, we know we don't like to have you know, we know we don't like to have you know, we know we don't like to have those and how you see yourself and how those and how you see yourself and how those and how you see yourself and how to have those sort of difficult to have those sort of difficult to have those sort of difficult conversations. And I think it is again conversations. And I think it is again conversations. And I think it is again >> as we were saying at the beginning, it's >> as we were saying at the beginning, it's >> as we were saying at the beginning, it's a very individual thing. So people need a very individual thing. So people need a very individual thing. So people need to work out what would they be to work out what would they be to work out what would they be comfortable comfortable comfortable saying. Um so we sometimes you know give saying. Um so we sometimes you know give saying. Um so we sometimes you know give them a few examples or what's wonderful them a few examples or what's wonderful them a few examples or what's wonderful in a group of course is you can say you in a group of course is you can say you in a group of course is you can say you know what people would say oh god I find know what people would say oh god I find know what people would say oh god I find it really hard when Jane at work who you it really hard when Jane at work who you it really hard when Jane at work who you know is a fantastic baker and she'll know is a fantastic baker and she'll know is a fantastic baker and she'll bring in the cupcakes and we're going to bring in the cupcakes and we're going to bring in the cupcakes and we're going to say to the group you know what what have say to the group you know what what have say to the group you know what what have how have you handled that and how have how have you handled that and how have how have you handled that and how have you handled that and we get some you handled that and we get some you handled that and we get some examples. When you say the groups, examples. When you say the groups, examples. When you say the groups, you're not talking about at work with you're not talking about at work with you're not talking about at work with your colleagues. You're talking about in your colleagues. You're talking about in your colleagues. You're talking about in the sort of the sort of the sort of >> in a treatment group addiction group or >> in a treatment group addiction group or >> in a treatment group addiction group or a support group. You know, it can be a support group. You know, it can be a support group. You know, it can be really good to get other people's uh really good to get other people's uh really good to get other people's uh advice on that. So, we would we would advice on that. So, we would we would advice on that. So, we would we would often say, well, I would sort of say how often say, well, I would sort of say how often say, well, I would sort of say how it is I'd handled it and some they'd get it is I'd handled it and some they'd get it is I'd handled it and some they'd get some other ideas and then they say, some other ideas and then they say, some other ideas and then they say, well, maybe I could do this. And we had well, maybe I could do this. And we had well, maybe I could do this. And we had one lady actually who had a group of one lady actually who had a group of one lady actually who had a group of friends. They always went out for coffee friends. They always went out for coffee friends. They always went out for coffee and a cake. It was kind of part of her and a cake. It was kind of part of her and a cake. It was kind of part of her important part of her week. And she was important part of her week. And she was important part of her week. And she was like, how am I going to handle this? And like, how am I going to handle this? And like, how am I going to handle this? And then she rehearsed it with her husband then she rehearsed it with her husband then she rehearsed it with her husband like you know what she was going to say? like you know what she was going to say? like you know what she was going to say? She was going to say you know I'm really She was going to say you know I'm really She was going to say you know I'm really trying to look after my health. You know trying to look after my health. You know trying to look after my health. You know I'm going to come for coffee. I love I'm going to come for coffee. I love I'm going to come for coffee. I love being with you guys but you know I'm not being with you guys but you know I'm not being with you guys but you know I'm not I'm not going to have have the cake and I'm not going to have have the cake and I'm not going to have have the cake and I really hope you can all support me I really hope you can all support me I really hope you can all support me because you know this is so important to because you know this is so important to because you know this is so important to me. So but it has to come from that me. So but it has to come from that me. So but it has to come from that person doesn't it? They have to feel person doesn't it? They have to feel person doesn't it? They have to feel that that's something they really could that that's something they really could that that's something they really could say. But it's great. It is great to say. But it's great. It is great to say. But it's great. It is great to rehearse it to sort of, you know, rehearse it to sort of, you know, rehearse it to sort of, you know, >> say it to a loved one that that's what >> say it to a loved one that that's what >> say it to a loved one that that's what you're going to do so that you're not, you're going to do so that you're not, you're going to do so that you're not, you don't find yourself in that you don't find yourself in that you don't find yourself in that situation and you haven't got a script situation and you haven't got a script situation and you haven't got a script almost. You haven't got a it sounds like almost. You haven't got a it sounds like almost. You haven't got a it sounds like that's what he was saying that he would that's what he was saying that he would that's what he was saying that he would >> he would rehearse what he was going to >> he would rehearse what he was going to >> he would rehearse what he was going to say. say. say. >> And I would just add to that, you know, >> And I would just add to that, you know, >> And I would just add to that, you know, if you inverted commas fail at first of if you inverted commas fail at first of if you inverted commas fail at first of all, it's not failure, right? Each time all, it's not failure, right? Each time all, it's not failure, right? Each time you do that, it's a learning process, you do that, it's a learning process, you do that, it's a learning process, right? But let's say you're trying to right? But let's say you're trying to right? But let's say you're trying to cut back on sugar or certain, you know, cut back on sugar or certain, you know, cut back on sugar or certain, you know, foods that you have a problematic foods that you have a problematic foods that you have a problematic relationship like, let's say, cake, relationship like, let's say, cake, relationship like, let's say, cake, you're trying not to have. you're trying not to have. you're trying not to have. >> If you do succumb and have it, >> If you do succumb and have it, >> If you do succumb and have it, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> don't feel bad about it. Try, I guess, >> don't feel bad about it. Try, I guess, >> don't feel bad about it. Try, I guess, try and analyze what happened. try and analyze what happened. try and analyze what happened. >> Exactly. What what led up what led up to >> Exactly. What what led up what led up to >> Exactly. What what led up what led up to it? What were the sort of uh, you know, it? What were the sort of uh, you know, it? What were the sort of uh, you know, background factors? And then background factors? And then background factors? And then >> what would you do differently next time? >> what would you do differently next time? >> what would you do differently next time? What have you learned? Because What have you learned? Because What have you learned? Because generally, yeah, people are bit generally, yeah, people are bit generally, yeah, people are bit disappointed in themselves and they disappointed in themselves and they disappointed in themselves and they often don't feel so well. If they've often don't feel so well. If they've often don't feel so well. If they've been off the sugars for a while and then been off the sugars for a while and then been off the sugars for a while and then they have it, they usually feel pretty they have it, they usually feel pretty they have it, they usually feel pretty rubbish actually. So, they're able to rubbish actually. So, they're able to rubbish actually. So, they're able to say, "Well, you know, I've learned I say, "Well, you know, I've learned I say, "Well, you know, I've learned I don't feel so great when I do that." Um, don't feel so great when I do that." Um, don't feel so great when I do that." Um, and yeah, what how would you, you know, and yeah, what how would you, you know, and yeah, what how would you, you know, it might be, it might be, it might be, you know, maybe often it's sort of you know, maybe often it's sort of you know, maybe often it's sort of things like traveling or, you know, they things like traveling or, you know, they things like traveling or, you know, they they're stuck somewhere without, you they're stuck somewhere without, you they're stuck somewhere without, you know, they're on a train, there's know, they're on a train, there's know, they're on a train, there's nothing else to eat that you can buy nothing else to eat that you can buy nothing else to eat that you can buy that they want to eat that's sort of that they want to eat that's sort of that they want to eat that's sort of from the the the um food car. So, you from the the the um food car. So, you from the the the um food car. So, you know, they might think, well, another know, they might think, well, another know, they might think, well, another time I'm going to take stuff with me. time I'm going to take stuff with me. time I'm going to take stuff with me. And that's that's a great learning And that's that's a great learning And that's that's a great learning point. So next time and then also the point. So next time and then also the point. So next time and then also the other thing is that if you if you have a other thing is that if you if you have a other thing is that if you if you have a slip up just get back on track as fast slip up just get back on track as fast slip up just get back on track as fast as you can. Don't let it slide because as you can. Don't let it slide because as you can. Don't let it slide because you like you say self criticizing or you like you say self criticizing or you like you say self criticizing or thinking I'm hopeless I'll never do it. thinking I'm hopeless I'll never do it. thinking I'm hopeless I'll never do it. You know it's all too hard. Just just You know it's all too hard. Just just You know it's all too hard. Just just learn from it and get back get back on learn from it and get back get back on learn from it and get back get back on track. It's like riding a bike. You just track. It's like riding a bike. You just track. It's like riding a bike. You just have to get back on. have to get back on. have to get back on. >> One thing I think a lot about Jen is how >> One thing I think a lot about Jen is how >> One thing I think a lot about Jen is how skills that we learn in one area of life skills that we learn in one area of life skills that we learn in one area of life are transferable to so many other areas. are transferable to so many other areas. are transferable to so many other areas. And I think there's a there's real And I think there's a there's real And I think there's a there's real relevance to what you're just talking relevance to what you're just talking relevance to what you're just talking about there, right? So let's say you're about there, right? So let's say you're about there, right? So let's say you're someone and you know, frankly, I've seen someone and you know, frankly, I've seen someone and you know, frankly, I've seen this this this thousands of times over my career thousands of times over my career thousands of times over my career >> and I've got friends who struggle with >> and I've got friends who struggle with >> and I've got friends who struggle with this, right? So this is so so common, this, right? So this is so so common, this, right? So this is so so common, but they struggle to assert themselves but they struggle to assert themselves but they struggle to assert themselves and speak up for themselves in and speak up for themselves in and speak up for themselves in particular environments. So, let's say particular environments. So, let's say particular environments. So, let's say you have a problematic relationship with you have a problematic relationship with you have a problematic relationship with cakes or desserts when you're out with cakes or desserts when you're out with cakes or desserts when you're out with your friends, whatever, your friends, whatever, your friends, whatever, and you struggle. You don't want to let and you struggle. You don't want to let and you struggle. You don't want to let people down. What will they think? You people down. What will they think? You people down. What will they think? You know, all your buddies, know, all your buddies, know, all your buddies, >> everyone else is having it. >> everyone else is having it. >> everyone else is having it. >> Everyone's having one, and I thought I'm >> Everyone's having one, and I thought I'm >> Everyone's having one, and I thought I'm going to be the weird one if I don't going to be the weird one if I don't going to be the weird one if I don't have it. They're all going to be have it. They're all going to be have it. They're all going to be thinking, "Oh, God, look at him." Or thinking, "Oh, God, look at him." Or thinking, "Oh, God, look at him." Or whatever, right? Which which is very, whatever, right? Which which is very, whatever, right? Which which is very, very real. very real. very real. If you can learn the skill over time, If you can learn the skill over time, If you can learn the skill over time, maybe you'll get it wrong a few times, maybe you'll get it wrong a few times, maybe you'll get it wrong a few times, of being able to speak up for yourself. of being able to speak up for yourself. of being able to speak up for yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And it said, "Hey guys, listen. You guys >> And it said, "Hey guys, listen. You guys >> And it said, "Hey guys, listen. You guys go for your life. Enjoy it. Have it. go for your life. Enjoy it. Have it. go for your life. Enjoy it. Have it. >> I'm just not eating like that anymore." >> I'm just not eating like that anymore." >> I'm just not eating like that anymore." Right? A you've got a problem. Well, one Right? A you've got a problem. Well, one Right? A you've got a problem. Well, one of the problems is that of the problems is that of the problems is that >> when you you definitely see this with >> when you you definitely see this with >> when you you definitely see this with alcohol, but I've seen this with my alcohol, but I've seen this with my alcohol, but I've seen this with my mates before with sugar. You or some of mates before with sugar. You or some of mates before with sugar. You or some of my mates, I should say, my mates, I should say, my mates, I should say, it almost feels like a criticism of it almost feels like a criticism of it almost feels like a criticism of them. They often take it as a critique them. They often take it as a critique them. They often take it as a critique of them because you of them because you of them because you >> whatever deciding not to drink or not >> whatever deciding not to drink or not >> whatever deciding not to drink or not having a dessert having a dessert having a dessert >> in some ways is a mirror back onto them >> in some ways is a mirror back onto them >> in some ways is a mirror back onto them >> only if they've got a problematic >> only if they've got a problematic >> only if they've got a problematic relationship because if they don't it's relationship because if they don't it's relationship because if they don't it's like why the hell does it matter? like why the hell does it matter? like why the hell does it matter? >> Why do they care? >> Why do they care? >> Why do they care? >> Hey, listen. I'm going to enjoy my >> Hey, listen. I'm going to enjoy my >> Hey, listen. I'm going to enjoy my chocolate cake. If you don't want it and chocolate cake. If you don't want it and chocolate cake. If you don't want it and you don't want to have it, I'm still you don't want to have it, I'm still you don't want to have it, I'm still going to enjoy. going to enjoy. going to enjoy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. But going back to my point is if >> Right. But going back to my point is if >> Right. But going back to my point is if you're someone who struggles you're someone who struggles you're someone who struggles >> and you learn how to speak up for >> and you learn how to speak up for >> and you learn how to speak up for yourself, yourself, yourself, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That won't just help you with that food. That won't just help you with that food. That won't just help you with that food. That will help you in every other aspect That will help you in every other aspect That will help you in every other aspect of your life. of your life. of your life. >> Absolutely. Because you're putting >> Absolutely. Because you're putting >> Absolutely. Because you're putting yourself yourself yourself first. first. first. >> Yeah. You could even look at it as go, >> Yeah. You could even look at it as go, >> Yeah. You could even look at it as go, "Oh my god, it's so unlucky that I've "Oh my god, it's so unlucky that I've "Oh my god, it's so unlucky that I've got this." And yes, of course, in the got this." And yes, of course, in the got this." And yes, of course, in the modern food environment, it is unlucky modern food environment, it is unlucky modern food environment, it is unlucky if you have that sort of relationship if you have that sort of relationship if you have that sort of relationship with food. It's not ideal. with food. It's not ideal. with food. It's not ideal. >> But you can also turn it into a real >> But you can also turn it into a real >> But you can also turn it into a real strength if you can learn the skills to strength if you can learn the skills to strength if you can learn the skills to get through it. get through it. get through it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It can transform your life in so many >> It can transform your life in so many >> It can transform your life in so many other ways. And you're right, the the other ways. And you're right, the the other ways. And you're right, the the the sugar pushers will come out of the the sugar pushers will come out of the the sugar pushers will come out of the woodwork when you try and change your woodwork when you try and change your woodwork when you try and change your behavior that some people will will try behavior that some people will will try behavior that some people will will try and push back, but it is usually because and push back, but it is usually because and push back, but it is usually because you're making them feel uncomfortable you're making them feel uncomfortable you're making them feel uncomfortable because they've got a problem. because they've got a problem. because they've got a problem. >> Okay. So, that's social settings. >> Okay. So, that's social settings. >> Okay. So, that's social settings. What's your take on cold turkey versus What's your take on cold turkey versus What's your take on cold turkey versus gradual? gradual? gradual? >> Right. Yes. >> Right. Yes. >> Right. Yes. So So So there's there's many roads to the same there's there's many roads to the same there's there's many roads to the same destination and this has it has to be destination and this has it has to be destination and this has it has to be individual because you've got to feel individual because you've got to feel individual because you've got to feel that's the right you know the right way that's the right you know the right way that's the right you know the right way for you. So um some people choose to for you. So um some people choose to for you. So um some people choose to sort of slowly cut down or or to maybe sort of slowly cut down or or to maybe sort of slowly cut down or or to maybe eliminate perhaps the perhaps the the eliminate perhaps the perhaps the the eliminate perhaps the perhaps the the worst offending worst offending worst offending thing thing thing worst offending food. you know, they worst offending food. you know, they worst offending food. you know, they might decide to sort of cut things out might decide to sort of cut things out might decide to sort of cut things out bit by bit now and that can work. It can bit by bit now and that can work. It can bit by bit now and that can work. It can obviously take a bit longer and it can obviously take a bit longer and it can obviously take a bit longer and it can be be be for people that are a very kind of end for people that are a very kind of end for people that are a very kind of end stage, let's say. I don't think it would stage, let's say. I don't think it would stage, let's say. I don't think it would have worked for me because there would have worked for me because there would have worked for me because there would have still be you're still having in a have still be you're still having in a have still be you're still having in a sense some of the substance, aren't you? sense some of the substance, aren't you? sense some of the substance, aren't you? Still having maybe other things with Still having maybe other things with Still having maybe other things with sugars or refined carbohydrates. sugars or refined carbohydrates. sugars or refined carbohydrates. So, that can sort of pull you back in. So, that can sort of pull you back in. So, that can sort of pull you back in. So there's pro there's pros and cons to So there's pro there's pros and cons to So there's pro there's pros and cons to that. There's obviously pros and cons to that. There's obviously pros and cons to that. There's obviously pros and cons to going cold turkey because um well it can going cold turkey because um well it can going cold turkey because um well it can be it's a bit of a shock to the system be it's a bit of a shock to the system be it's a bit of a shock to the system and you can feel pretty rough for as and you can feel pretty rough for as and you can feel pretty rough for as we've said about a week. The other thing we've said about a week. The other thing we've said about a week. The other thing is that anybody on medication of is that anybody on medication of is that anybody on medication of diabetes or blood pressure or other diabetes or blood pressure or other diabetes or blood pressure or other medications shouldn't do that without medications shouldn't do that without medications shouldn't do that without talking to their health care provider talking to their health care provider talking to their health care provider because if your blood sugar goes down because if your blood sugar goes down because if your blood sugar goes down and you're on say blood sugar lowering and you're on say blood sugar lowering and you're on say blood sugar lowering medications, we don't want anybody medications, we don't want anybody medications, we don't want anybody coming to any harm or you know your coming to any harm or you know your coming to any harm or you know your blood pressure can sort of reduce as blood pressure can sort of reduce as blood pressure can sort of reduce as well. So anyone who's on medication well. So anyone who's on medication well. So anyone who's on medication probably shouldn't go cold turkey probably shouldn't go cold turkey probably shouldn't go cold turkey without unless they've got proper without unless they've got proper without unless they've got proper supervision for their medications. A lot supervision for their medications. A lot supervision for their medications. A lot of those of us with sort of addiction of those of us with sort of addiction of those of us with sort of addiction problems have got very black and white problems have got very black and white problems have got very black and white brains. You know, it's kind of yes or brains. You know, it's kind of yes or brains. You know, it's kind of yes or no. It's black or white. So, uh, for me, no. It's black or white. So, uh, for me, no. It's black or white. So, uh, for me, cold turkey felt like once I'd cold turkey felt like once I'd cold turkey felt like once I'd understood the once I'd got to the point understood the once I'd got to the point understood the once I'd got to the point of understanding that it was an of understanding that it was an of understanding that it was an addiction and that these were the addiction and that these were the addiction and that these were the problematic things, problematic things, problematic things, um, then it it just made sense to me, um, then it it just made sense to me, um, then it it just made sense to me, right, okay, right, okay, right, okay, that was the right thing to do, just to that was the right thing to do, just to that was the right thing to do, just to quit completely and then deal with the quit completely and then deal with the quit completely and then deal with the consequences, if you like. So there's consequences, if you like. So there's consequences, if you like. So there's the sort of physiological withdrawal and the sort of physiological withdrawal and the sort of physiological withdrawal and then there's the sort of you can get then there's the sort of you can get then there's the sort of you can get sort of cravings for a for a while sort of cravings for a for a while sort of cravings for a for a while afterwards. And the other thing is that afterwards. And the other thing is that afterwards. And the other thing is that we've talked a lot about food, but like we've talked a lot about food, but like we've talked a lot about food, but like any other addiction recovery program, it any other addiction recovery program, it any other addiction recovery program, it isn't just about the food as as as you isn't just about the food as as as you isn't just about the food as as as you know because you've spoken to so many know because you've spoken to so many know because you've spoken to so many people um about sort of you know this people um about sort of you know this people um about sort of you know this this same sort of topic that it has to this same sort of topic that it has to this same sort of topic that it has to be beyond the food as well. You have to be beyond the food as well. You have to be beyond the food as well. You have to understand if you've been using food for understand if you've been using food for understand if you've been using food for comfort comfort comfort uh to to fill a hole to sort of, you uh to to fill a hole to sort of, you uh to to fill a hole to sort of, you know, deal with difficult memories or know, deal with difficult memories or know, deal with difficult memories or whatever, you have to find a way another whatever, you have to find a way another whatever, you have to find a way another way to to deal with those things because way to to deal with those things because way to to deal with those things because otherwise you're going to get drawn back otherwise you're going to get drawn back otherwise you're going to get drawn back in uh to the food or some other in uh to the food or some other in uh to the food or some other substance at some time. And so it's all substance at some time. And so it's all substance at some time. And so it's all about advocating for yourself as you about advocating for yourself as you about advocating for yourself as you said, you know, self-care on many said, you know, self-care on many said, you know, self-care on many levels. So I've had to learn. I was an levels. So I've had to learn. I was an levels. So I've had to learn. I was an exercise hater, particularly at school, exercise hater, particularly at school, exercise hater, particularly at school, mostly because I was overweight. Mostly mostly because I was overweight. Mostly mostly because I was overweight. Mostly because I was addicted to sugar, but because I was addicted to sugar, but because I was addicted to sugar, but I've I've come to love it. I've come to I've I've come to love it. I've come to I've I've come to love it. I've come to love exercising to feel the mental love exercising to feel the mental love exercising to feel the mental benefits of it and the physical benefits of it and the physical benefits of it and the physical benefits. I, you know, have had to sort benefits. I, you know, have had to sort benefits. I, you know, have had to sort of use techniques like, you know, yoga of use techniques like, you know, yoga of use techniques like, you know, yoga and these kinds of things to sort of and these kinds of things to sort of and these kinds of things to sort of feel feel calmer. I I have hobbies that feel feel calmer. I I have hobbies that feel feel calmer. I I have hobbies that are very calming like knitting and are very calming like knitting and are very calming like knitting and crochet that I can do to sort of keep crochet that I can do to sort of keep crochet that I can do to sort of keep away from the food is something else to away from the food is something else to away from the food is something else to think about, you know. So, people have think about, you know. So, people have think about, you know. So, people have to to to think beyond beyond the food as well. I think beyond beyond the food as well. I think beyond beyond the food as well. I guess the the point that comes to mind guess the the point that comes to mind guess the the point that comes to mind there is there is there is I think a really empowering message for I think a really empowering message for I think a really empowering message for people from your story, Jen, and your husband from your story, Jen, and your husband David's story when he was on the podcast David's story when he was on the podcast David's story when he was on the podcast a few months ago. a few months ago. a few months ago. It really seems as though both of you It really seems as though both of you It really seems as though both of you have come into a new lease of life with have come into a new lease of life with have come into a new lease of life with your health and frankly your lives your health and frankly your lives your health and frankly your lives >> in your 50s and 60s. >> in your 50s and 60s. >> in your 50s and 60s. >> Y >> Y >> Y >> and I just want to highlight that >> and I just want to highlight that >> and I just want to highlight that because many people feel it's too late because many people feel it's too late because many people feel it's too late for them to change. for them to change. for them to change. >> When you just said there that you used >> When you just said there that you used >> When you just said there that you used to hate exercise and you think it's to hate exercise and you think it's to hate exercise and you think it's primarily because you were overweight, primarily because you were overweight, primarily because you were overweight, primarily because you're addicted to primarily because you're addicted to primarily because you're addicted to sugar. sugar. sugar. >> Yes. There will be so many people >> Yes. There will be so many people >> Yes. There will be so many people listening listening listening >> who also recognize that and have told >> who also recognize that and have told >> who also recognize that and have told themselves a story that exercise is not themselves a story that exercise is not themselves a story that exercise is not for them for them for them >> but actually it wasn't that exercise >> but actually it wasn't that exercise >> but actually it wasn't that exercise wasn't for them it was in the state in wasn't for them it was in the state in wasn't for them it was in the state in which they were in which they were in which they were in >> they were unable to enjoy moving their >> they were unable to enjoy moving their >> they were unable to enjoy moving their bodies bodies bodies >> correct >> correct >> correct >> but if you can gain some degree of >> but if you can gain some degree of >> but if you can gain some degree of mastery over your food environment mastery over your food environment mastery over your food environment recognize it as an addiction if it is an recognize it as an addiction if it is an recognize it as an addiction if it is an addiction for you take certain steps to addiction for you take certain steps to addiction for you take certain steps to change things. Well, you never know. change things. Well, you never know. change things. Well, you never know. Like David said to me, how old was David Like David said to me, how old was David Like David said to me, how old was David now? Was he 67? now? Was he 67? now? Was he 67? >> 67. >> 67. >> 67. >> 67. Yeah. >> 67. Yeah. >> 67. Yeah. >> He told me he's like is he's probably >> He told me he's like is he's probably >> He told me he's like is he's probably the fest he's ever been. He he he looks the fest he's ever been. He he he looks the fest he's ever been. He he he looks good. He feels good. He's cognitively good. He feels good. He's cognitively good. He feels good. He's cognitively sharp. He's running faster than he's run sharp. He's running faster than he's run sharp. He's running faster than he's run before. before. before. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> This is a very very empowering message >> This is a very very empowering message >> This is a very very empowering message for people. So if anyone feels it's too for people. So if anyone feels it's too for people. So if anyone feels it's too late and actually oh they've had late and actually oh they've had late and actually oh they've had problems with sugar their whole life problems with sugar their whole life problems with sugar their whole life >> you Jen and your husband David I think >> you Jen and your husband David I think >> you Jen and your husband David I think are shining examples are shining examples are shining examples >> that you can change at any time. >> that you can change at any time. >> that you can change at any time. >> You just start to feel once you've quit >> You just start to feel once you've quit >> You just start to feel once you've quit all of that stuff you weirdly start to all of that stuff you weirdly start to all of that stuff you weirdly start to want to move and you start to feel more want to move and you start to feel more want to move and you start to feel more energetic. And we've seen that in many energetic. And we've seen that in many energetic. And we've seen that in many many of David's patients as well. It many of David's patients as well. It many of David's patients as well. It wasn't about getting them to take more wasn't about getting them to take more wasn't about getting them to take more exercise to lose weight. Once they get exercise to lose weight. Once they get exercise to lose weight. Once they get control of the food, they naturally lost control of the food, they naturally lost control of the food, they naturally lost weight. And then we didn't even say go weight. And then we didn't even say go weight. And then we didn't even say go and exercise. They'd come back and say, and exercise. They'd come back and say, and exercise. They'd come back and say, "Oh, I've join, you know, I've joined "Oh, I've join, you know, I've joined "Oh, I've join, you know, I've joined the gym or I'm walking every evening the gym or I'm walking every evening the gym or I'm walking every evening after my meal." Or they just feel more after my meal." Or they just feel more after my meal." Or they just feel more like moving because they're like moving because they're like moving because they're >> mitochondria are working, your brain's >> mitochondria are working, your brain's >> mitochondria are working, your brain's working, you just feel like more like working, you just feel like more like working, you just feel like more like sort of exercising. sort of exercising. sort of exercising. >> What was the name? at Chris, David's >> What was the name? at Chris, David's >> What was the name? at Chris, David's patient, who I spoke to as part of my patient, who I spoke to as part of my patient, who I spoke to as part of my Channel 4 show that came out in January, Channel 4 show that came out in January, Channel 4 show that came out in January, >> uh, Live Well with a drug free doctor. >> uh, Live Well with a drug free doctor. >> uh, Live Well with a drug free doctor. >> I remember chatting to Chris >> I remember chatting to Chris >> I remember chatting to Chris >> and he also when he was, you know, cuz >> and he also when he was, you know, cuz >> and he also when he was, you know, cuz he showed me all these images of, you he showed me all these images of, you he showed me all these images of, you know, food was his his identity. know, food was his his identity. know, food was his his identity. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> He was all the images he showed me, he >> He was all the images he showed me, he >> He was all the images he showed me, he was really overweight and there was was really overweight and there was was really overweight and there was always food around and he was always food around and he was always food around and he was >> having a great time with his food. Yeah. >> having a great time with his food. Yeah. >> having a great time with his food. Yeah. And you know, he was just telling me how And you know, he was just telling me how And you know, he was just telling me how he walks every day now, loads. He goes he walks every day now, loads. He goes he walks every day now, loads. He goes to the gym several times a week. He to the gym several times a week. He to the gym several times a week. He boxes, boxes, boxes, >> stuff that he never used to do. So, I >> stuff that he never used to do. So, I >> stuff that he never used to do. So, I think this is also another think this is also another think this is also another unrecognized benefit of dealing with unrecognized benefit of dealing with unrecognized benefit of dealing with this. this. this. >> You actually get so much vitality back >> You actually get so much vitality back >> You actually get so much vitality back >> when you start to tackle this, don't >> when you start to tackle this, don't >> when you start to tackle this, don't you? you? you? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And a vitality you perhaps have never >> And a vitality you perhaps have never >> And a vitality you perhaps have never experienced before. experienced before. experienced before. >> Yeah. Yeah. And for me, of course, it >> Yeah. Yeah. And for me, of course, it >> Yeah. Yeah. And for me, of course, it became a a passion as well that other became a a passion as well that other became a a passion as well that other people should have this information. Um, people should have this information. Um, people should have this information. Um, because it took me, so I'm a because it took me, so I'm a because it took me, so I'm a psychologist. I'm so embarrassed that it psychologist. I'm so embarrassed that it psychologist. I'm so embarrassed that it took me till I was like, uh, until I was took me till I was like, uh, until I was took me till I was like, uh, until I was about 52 to put put it all together cuz about 52 to put put it all together cuz about 52 to put put it all together cuz I'd always wondered about why, you know, I'd always wondered about why, you know, I'd always wondered about why, you know, why I'm a psychologist. I can't control why I'm a psychologist. I can't control why I'm a psychologist. I can't control my behavior around food. It was kind of my behavior around food. It was kind of my behavior around food. It was kind of even more shameful, even more even more shameful, even more even more shameful, even more embarrassing. Um, but I'd always been embarrassing. Um, but I'd always been embarrassing. Um, but I'd always been trying to work it out and eventually trying to work it out and eventually trying to work it out and eventually when I worked it out, I was like, "Ah, when I worked it out, I was like, "Ah, when I worked it out, I was like, "Ah, you know, other people need to know this you know, other people need to know this you know, other people need to know this because it makes such a difference that because it makes such a difference that because it makes such a difference that piece of information that could it could piece of information that could it could piece of information that could it could it be an addictive problem?" And then of it be an addictive problem?" And then of it be an addictive problem?" And then of course we know that the the treatment course we know that the the treatment course we know that the the treatment the effective treatments for addiction the effective treatments for addiction the effective treatments for addiction is is abstinence. is is abstinence. is is abstinence. >> And once you've that that's it. I mean, >> And once you've that that's it. I mean, >> And once you've that that's it. I mean, we could have done the podcast in like a we could have done the podcast in like a we could have done the podcast in like a minute. I could have just said that minute. I could have just said that minute. I could have just said that really you have if it's an addiction really you have if it's an addiction really you have if it's an addiction problem, abstinence is the treatment. problem, abstinence is the treatment. problem, abstinence is the treatment. Um, and once I'd unce because because that's not the general because because that's not the general messaging around health and fitness. messaging around health and fitness. messaging around health and fitness. >> Yeah. One thing >> Yeah. One thing >> Yeah. One thing that I guess is in your favor is that that I guess is in your favor is that that I guess is in your favor is that you and David did this together. That you and David did this together. That you and David did this together. That has been amazing and it has been the has been amazing and it has been the has been amazing and it has been the sort of evolving story where you know we sort of evolving story where you know we sort of evolving story where you know we found the sort of the low carbohydrate found the sort of the low carbohydrate found the sort of the low carbohydrate way of eating and then applied that to way of eating and then applied that to way of eating and then applied that to to his patients to such amazing kind of to his patients to such amazing kind of to his patients to such amazing kind of results. But for somebody with results. But for somebody with results. But for somebody with food addiction, that can be yes, eating food addiction, that can be yes, eating food addiction, that can be yes, eating in a low carbohydrate way can can be in a low carbohydrate way can can be in a low carbohydrate way can can be very very very good. But you need to very very very good. But you need to very very very good. But you need to understand the addiction piece because understand the addiction piece because understand the addiction piece because otherwise people slip and this is what otherwise people slip and this is what otherwise people slip and this is what happened to me. You I did really well on happened to me. You I did really well on happened to me. You I did really well on low carb. I lost a lot of weight, but low carb. I lost a lot of weight, but low carb. I lost a lot of weight, but then a bit like the guy you've had on then a bit like the guy you've had on then a bit like the guy you've had on who said, you know, it's really good who said, you know, it's really good who said, you know, it's really good when you're on it. when you're on it. when you're on it. There's all this kind of, you know, keto There's all this kind of, you know, keto There's all this kind of, you know, keto treats, aren't there? Keto baking. You treats, aren't there? Keto baking. You treats, aren't there? Keto baking. You know, obviously I was going to get drawn know, obviously I was going to get drawn know, obviously I was going to get drawn back into that cuz I loved baking. So, back into that cuz I loved baking. So, back into that cuz I loved baking. So, I'd start baking with, you know, I'd start baking with, you know, I'd start baking with, you know, sweeteners and almond flour and um and sweeteners and almond flour and um and sweeteners and almond flour and um and then that becomes problematic because then that becomes problematic because then that becomes problematic because you're going to get drawn into that or you're going to get drawn into that or you're going to get drawn into that or we like nut butters and things like we like nut butters and things like we like nut butters and things like that. You can still have that that. You can still have that that. You can still have that relationship with things that seem kind relationship with things that seem kind relationship with things that seem kind of in quotes healthy. Um so I had to of in quotes healthy. Um so I had to of in quotes healthy. Um so I had to really understand right you know the the really understand right you know the the really understand right you know the the those kinds of foods um for me are are those kinds of foods um for me are are those kinds of foods um for me are are addictive so I just need to leave them addictive so I just need to leave them addictive so I just need to leave them to the side of my plate literally and to the side of my plate literally and to the side of my plate literally and just focus on eating real whole foods as just focus on eating real whole foods as just focus on eating real whole foods as nature intended. If someone's listening, nature intended. If someone's listening, nature intended. If someone's listening, Jen, and I know there'll be many who are Jen, and I know there'll be many who are Jen, and I know there'll be many who are thinking, listen, the problem is thinking, listen, the problem is thinking, listen, the problem is I try and do this, but my partner keeps I try and do this, but my partner keeps I try and do this, but my partner keeps certain foods in the house. certain foods in the house. certain foods in the house. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Right. Which means that at some point I >> Right. Which means that at some point I >> Right. Which means that at some point I crack and end up eating those foods. crack and end up eating those foods. crack and end up eating those foods. >> Um, I want to know what your advice is >> Um, I want to know what your advice is >> Um, I want to know what your advice is for that person. And then let's expand for that person. And then let's expand for that person. And then let's expand it out a little because a lot of people it out a little because a lot of people it out a little because a lot of people will say will say will say and I'm interested as your take on what and I'm interested as your take on what and I'm interested as your take on what this actually means as a psychologist. this actually means as a psychologist. this actually means as a psychologist. They'll go, "Yeah, but you know, I need They'll go, "Yeah, but you know, I need They'll go, "Yeah, but you know, I need to keep sweets and sugars and and to keep sweets and sugars and and to keep sweets and sugars and and chocolates in the house for the kids chocolates in the house for the kids chocolates in the house for the kids >> or the grandkids." >> or the grandkids." >> or the grandkids." >> Right? So, two scenarios there. One is >> Right? So, two scenarios there. One is >> Right? So, two scenarios there. One is that the partner that the partner that the partner >> is not playing ball or they don't maybe, >> is not playing ball or they don't maybe, >> is not playing ball or they don't maybe, you know, I don't mean unintentionally, you know, I don't mean unintentionally, you know, I don't mean unintentionally, maybe they just like they don't maybe they just like they don't maybe they just like they don't recognize how serious it is. Yeah. and recognize how serious it is. Yeah. and recognize how serious it is. Yeah. and then children. So take them in whichever then children. So take them in whichever then children. So take them in whichever order you want. order you want. order you want. >> So so so living in a household with >> So so so living in a household with >> So so so living in a household with other people who don't want to be other people who don't want to be other people who don't want to be abstinent. Yes. Of course that that's a abstinent. Yes. Of course that that's a abstinent. Yes. Of course that that's a challenge. It's not insurmountable but challenge. It's not insurmountable but challenge. It's not insurmountable but it does make it more different it does make it more different it does make it more different difficult. Yeah. So I'm so lucky because difficult. Yeah. So I'm so lucky because difficult. Yeah. So I'm so lucky because we both kind of more or less the same. A we both kind of more or less the same. A we both kind of more or less the same. A little bit different but more or less little bit different but more or less little bit different but more or less the same. Um the same. Um the same. Um and again there are there are many and again there are there are many and again there are there are many possible answers. One is yeah to really possible answers. One is yeah to really possible answers. One is yeah to really have that conversation. If it's a have that conversation. If it's a have that conversation. If it's a partner that loves you, hopefully they partner that loves you, hopefully they partner that loves you, hopefully they want you to be healthy and well. Um, so want you to be healthy and well. Um, so want you to be healthy and well. Um, so you have that conversation about, you you have that conversation about, you you have that conversation about, you know, I'm beginning to think about my know, I'm beginning to think about my know, I'm beginning to think about my problem in in this way and I really want problem in in this way and I really want problem in in this way and I really want to try and, you know, be abstinence from to try and, you know, be abstinence from to try and, you know, be abstinence from from these foods which are my from these foods which are my from these foods which are my problematic foods. Um, problematic foods. Um, problematic foods. Um, sometimes sometimes sometimes partners are willing to have a go partners are willing to have a go partners are willing to have a go themselves. You know, they may be themselves. You know, they may be themselves. You know, they may be interested themselves in seeing how that interested themselves in seeing how that interested themselves in seeing how that goes. Otherwise, it's a negotiation goes. Otherwise, it's a negotiation goes. Otherwise, it's a negotiation about, you know, can I have this about, you know, can I have this about, you know, can I have this cupboard is my food and you keep your cupboard is my food and you keep your cupboard is my food and you keep your food over here. Or sometimes we've had food over here. Or sometimes we've had food over here. Or sometimes we've had people buy their husbands like lock people buy their husbands like lock people buy their husbands like lock boxes and give them the key. So they boxes and give them the key. So they boxes and give them the key. So they have their if they want to be in have their if they want to be in have their if they want to be in chocolate and crisp, they have it in a chocolate and crisp, they have it in a chocolate and crisp, they have it in a locked box out of sight locked box out of sight locked box out of sight >> so that the the person knows they can't >> so that the the person knows they can't >> so that the the person knows they can't get into that box or it's locked in a get into that box or it's locked in a get into that box or it's locked in a filing cabinet or something like that. filing cabinet or something like that. filing cabinet or something like that. >> When you hear that, >> When you hear that, >> When you hear that, >> you go it's pretty hard to not make the >> you go it's pretty hard to not make the >> you go it's pretty hard to not make the case this is an addiction, right? When case this is an addiction, right? When case this is an addiction, right? When when you hear things like that, a locked when you hear things like that, a locked when you hear things like that, a locked box. box. box. >> Yeah. Yeah. That people have asked their >> Yeah. Yeah. That people have asked their >> Yeah. Yeah. That people have asked their husbands to keep it outside or or only husbands to keep it outside or or only husbands to keep it outside or or only to eat it outside the home. Um, so it's to eat it outside the home. Um, so it's to eat it outside the home. Um, so it's an individual kind of negotiation about an individual kind of negotiation about an individual kind of negotiation about what's possible really in in the home. what's possible really in in the home. what's possible really in in the home. Um, you know, as say having a cupboard Um, you know, as say having a cupboard Um, you know, as say having a cupboard so the cupboard you open only has the so the cupboard you open only has the so the cupboard you open only has the things in that you want to be eating or things in that you want to be eating or things in that you want to be eating or a shelf on the fridge that's your food. a shelf on the fridge that's your food. a shelf on the fridge that's your food. It it is more difficult if it if you're It it is more difficult if it if you're It it is more difficult if it if you're seeing it Yeah. all the time. seeing it Yeah. all the time. seeing it Yeah. all the time. >> But Jen, just to bring up alcohol for a >> But Jen, just to bring up alcohol for a >> But Jen, just to bring up alcohol for a minute, minute, minute, >> I I guess >> I I guess >> I I guess >> Yeah. use the same analogy. use the >> Yeah. use the same analogy. use the >> Yeah. use the same analogy. use the analogy and if you were um if you were analogy and if you were um if you were analogy and if you were um if you were recognized as an alcoholic recognized as an alcoholic recognized as an alcoholic >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> and you were seeking help for that, >> and you were seeking help for that, >> and you were seeking help for that, >> you'd hope that your partner didn't >> you'd hope that your partner didn't >> you'd hope that your partner didn't >> would not keep alcohol in the house >> would not keep alcohol in the house >> would not keep alcohol in the house >> next to you on the sofa having a drink >> next to you on the sofa having a drink >> next to you on the sofa having a drink while you're watching. while you're watching. while you're watching. >> Yeah. But again, it goes back to that >> Yeah. But again, it goes back to that >> Yeah. But again, it goes back to that that sort of theme that's been playing that sort of theme that's been playing that sort of theme that's been playing out throughout this conversation that we out throughout this conversation that we out throughout this conversation that we don't really recognize it. don't really recognize it. don't really recognize it. >> Don't take it as seriously >> Don't take it as seriously >> Don't take it as seriously >> as seriously. It's like, oh yeah, just a >> as seriously. It's like, oh yeah, just a >> as seriously. It's like, oh yeah, just a bit of sugar. bit of sugar. bit of sugar. >> Incredibly serious. So, you know, it is >> Incredibly serious. So, you know, it is >> Incredibly serious. So, you know, it is it's going to kill you the same way as it's going to kill you the same way as it's going to kill you the same way as cigarettes. And cigarettes. And cigarettes. And >> yeah, I think that's the key point, >> yeah, I think that's the key point, >> yeah, I think that's the key point, isn't it? It's like, look, humans are isn't it? It's like, look, humans are isn't it? It's like, look, humans are hardwired to crave sugar, hardwired to crave sugar, hardwired to crave sugar, >> as we've already touched on. In our >> as we've already touched on. In our >> as we've already touched on. In our evolutionary past, if it was around, we evolutionary past, if it was around, we evolutionary past, if it was around, we might gorge on it and store a bit of fat might gorge on it and store a bit of fat might gorge on it and store a bit of fat to get us through for times when food to get us through for times when food to get us through for times when food wasn't around. wasn't around. wasn't around. >> But in the modern food environment, for >> But in the modern food environment, for >> But in the modern food environment, for most people, food is always around. So most people, food is always around. So most people, food is always around. So that so-called winter never actually that so-called winter never actually that so-called winter never actually comes, right? It's always summer. And so comes, right? It's always summer. And so comes, right? It's always summer. And so we know what are the problems today? we know what are the problems today? we know what are the problems today? Well, metabolic dysfunction, Well, metabolic dysfunction, Well, metabolic dysfunction, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> is probably one of the driving uh >> is probably one of the driving uh >> is probably one of the driving uh factors for most chronic diseases. factors for most chronic diseases. factors for most chronic diseases. >> Heart attacks, strokes, many types of >> Heart attacks, strokes, many types of >> Heart attacks, strokes, many types of Alzheimer's. Alzheimer's. Alzheimer's. >> Yeah. And a large amount, maybe 40% of >> Yeah. And a large amount, maybe 40% of >> Yeah. And a large amount, maybe 40% of cancers, cancers, cancers, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> are driven by metabolic dysfunction, you >> are driven by metabolic dysfunction, you >> are driven by metabolic dysfunction, you know, as well as other things, right? know, as well as other things, right? know, as well as other things, right? >> But the consequences of not being able >> But the consequences of not being able >> But the consequences of not being able to get on top of your food intake for to get on top of your food intake for to get on top of your food intake for some people can be, frankly, some people can be, frankly, some people can be, frankly, life-threatening and life shortening. life-threatening and life shortening. life-threatening and life shortening. So, this is not a trivial matter. We're So, this is not a trivial matter. We're So, this is not a trivial matter. We're talking about, oh, you having a bit of talking about, oh, you having a bit of talking about, oh, you having a bit of sugar, it's like, no, no, for some sugar, it's like, no, no, for some sugar, it's like, no, no, for some people, this actually kills you. people, this actually kills you. people, this actually kills you. >> Yeah. And if you've got a food >> Yeah. And if you've got a food >> Yeah. And if you've got a food addiction, you're seven times more addiction, you're seven times more addiction, you're seven times more likely to have type two diabetes, for likely to have type two diabetes, for likely to have type two diabetes, for example. So there've been studies done example. So there've been studies done example. So there've been studies done on and we know that the prevalence in on and we know that the prevalence in on and we know that the prevalence in the general population of food addiction the general population of food addiction the general population of food addiction using th those sort of symptoms is 14%. using th those sort of symptoms is 14%. using th those sort of symptoms is 14%. Well, that's more than 6 million adults Well, that's more than 6 million adults Well, that's more than 6 million adults in the UK. in the UK. in the UK. >> 14%. >> 14%. >> 14%. >> 14%. So it's very similar to alcohol. Um >> 14%. So it's very similar to alcohol. Um >> 14%. So it's very similar to alcohol. Um as a problematic thing. So as a problematic thing. So as a problematic thing. So >> that's kind of what one in six, one in >> that's kind of what one in six, one in >> that's kind of what one in six, one in seven. So in a seven. So in a seven. So in a >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it's the same in in kids and >> And it's the same in in kids and >> And it's the same in in kids and adolescence. adolescence. adolescence. It's terrifying. You know, those those It's terrifying. You know, those those It's terrifying. You know, those those kids have been brought up in this food kids have been brought up in this food kids have been brought up in this food environment. You know, when we were environment. You know, when we were environment. You know, when we were brought up, it wasn't quite as it is brought up, it wasn't quite as it is brought up, it wasn't quite as it is today. today. today. >> Even Halloween, right, when I was a kid, >> Even Halloween, right, when I was a kid, >> Even Halloween, right, when I was a kid, it wasn't that big a thing. it wasn't that big a thing. it wasn't that big a thing. >> No. Somewhere I think in the last 10 >> No. Somewhere I think in the last 10 >> No. Somewhere I think in the last 10 years it's kind of from America it feels years it's kind of from America it feels years it's kind of from America it feels like it's accelerated into being like it's accelerated into being like it's accelerated into being >> like the most ridiculous sugar fest. >> like the most ridiculous sugar fest. >> like the most ridiculous sugar fest. >> Every celebration has become a >> Every celebration has become a >> Every celebration has become a ridiculous sugar fest, hasn't it? ridiculous sugar fest, hasn't it? ridiculous sugar fest, hasn't it? Valentine's, Mother's Day, Easter, Valentine's, Mother's Day, Easter, Valentine's, Mother's Day, Easter, Christmas. Christmas. Christmas. >> Yeah. Once Christmas is done, it's like, >> Yeah. Once Christmas is done, it's like, >> Yeah. Once Christmas is done, it's like, well, let's start getting people ready well, let's start getting people ready well, let's start getting people ready for the next celebration. for the next celebration. for the next celebration. >> We've been had really. >> We've been had really. >> We've been had really. >> Yeah. Once you see it, it's everywhere. >> Yeah. Once you see it, it's everywhere. >> Yeah. Once you see it, it's everywhere. You're being marketed this stuff all the You're being marketed this stuff all the You're being marketed this stuff all the time. the garage that the someone who time. the garage that the someone who time. the garage that the someone who works in this space had had a clicker works in this space had had a clicker works in this space had had a clicker and she was thought right I'm going to and she was thought right I'm going to and she was thought right I'm going to see how many times a day I'm queued to see how many times a day I'm queued to see how many times a day I'm queued to kind of eat these foods and they're kind of eat these foods and they're kind of eat these foods and they're everywhere so you go and fill up your everywhere so you go and fill up your everywhere so you go and fill up your car you know you have to walk a gauntlet car you know you have to walk a gauntlet car you know you have to walk a gauntlet an absolute gauntlet of snack food just an absolute gauntlet of snack food just an absolute gauntlet of snack food just to pay pay the bill um there's to pay pay the bill um there's to pay pay the bill um there's advertising hoardings it's on the advertising hoardings it's on the advertising hoardings it's on the television it's on the you scrolling on television it's on the you scrolling on television it's on the you scrolling on the phone it's so we're the phone it's so we're the phone it's so we're Cute, cute, cute. Cute, cute, cute. Cute, cute, cute. >> And as you say, you're surprised that >> And as you say, you're surprised that >> And as you say, you're surprised that anyone manages. How anyone manages. How anyone manages. How >> does anybody manage? And I think we want >> does anybody manage? And I think we want >> does anybody manage? And I think we want to empower people to say, listen, it's to empower people to say, listen, it's to empower people to say, listen, it's not your fault. It's okay to fight. It's not your fault. It's okay to fight. It's not your fault. It's okay to fight. It's difficult. difficult. difficult. >> But also, >> But also, >> But also, what are you going to do? You have to do what are you going to do? You have to do what are you going to do? You have to do something. something. something. >> And there are communities of people that >> And there are communities of people that >> And there are communities of people that that are doing it. You have to sort of that are doing it. You have to sort of that are doing it. You have to sort of find your tribe to some extent. It's find your tribe to some extent. It's find your tribe to some extent. It's really important that, you know, you really important that, you know, you really important that, you know, you wouldn't expect someone with an alcohol wouldn't expect someone with an alcohol wouldn't expect someone with an alcohol problem to kind of go it alone. They problem to kind of go it alone. They problem to kind of go it alone. They would have a support group or a would have a support group or a would have a support group or a counselor or somebody supporting them. counselor or somebody supporting them. counselor or somebody supporting them. And I think, you know, we it's really And I think, you know, we it's really And I think, you know, we it's really important that people kind of find their important that people kind of find their important that people kind of find their little little support group or they have little little support group or they have little little support group or they have somebody who who's really with them on somebody who who's really with them on somebody who who's really with them on this. So, if it's not going to be your this. So, if it's not going to be your this. So, if it's not going to be your partner, you know, try and find somebody partner, you know, try and find somebody partner, you know, try and find somebody else or or a community to sort of get else or or a community to sort of get else or or a community to sort of get imshed. We didn't talk about kids. Do imshed. We didn't talk about kids. Do imshed. We didn't talk about kids. Do you want to go back to that? you want to go back to that? you want to go back to that? >> We can do. Yeah. >> We can do. Yeah. >> We can do. Yeah. >> Part two of part two of the question cuz >> Part two of part two of the question cuz >> Part two of part two of the question cuz that's really difficult as well. And that's really difficult as well. And that's really difficult as well. And everybody thinks, "Oh, this, you know, everybody thinks, "Oh, this, you know, everybody thinks, "Oh, this, you know, they're so cute. They should let them they're so cute. They should let them they're so cute. They should let them have a treat." And, you know, I was have a treat." And, you know, I was have a treat." And, you know, I was guilty of this because I didn't work guilty of this because I didn't work guilty of this because I didn't work this out till Yeah. I was maybe 52. So, this out till Yeah. I was maybe 52. So, this out till Yeah. I was maybe 52. So, obviously, I raised my kids um pretty obviously, I raised my kids um pretty obviously, I raised my kids um pretty heavily on the carbohydrate side because heavily on the carbohydrate side because heavily on the carbohydrate side because that's that's what um and we used to that's that's what um and we used to that's that's what um and we used to have carbohydrate corner which had the have carbohydrate corner which had the have carbohydrate corner which had the biscuits in for the kids to go and get. biscuits in for the kids to go and get. biscuits in for the kids to go and get. So, I So, I So, I >> But so many people have sweet drawers, >> But so many people have sweet drawers, >> But so many people have sweet drawers, aren't they? aren't they? aren't they? >> Oh, yeah. I apologize to them about it. >> Oh, yeah. I apologize to them about it. >> Oh, yeah. I apologize to them about it. I'm sorry about it. But fortunately, I'm sorry about it. But fortunately, I'm sorry about it. But fortunately, they they all eat like we do now. So, um they they all eat like we do now. So, um they they all eat like we do now. So, um >> they're in their 20s, aren't they? I >> they're in their 20s, aren't they? I >> they're in their 20s, aren't they? I think. think. think. >> Yeah. 20s and 30s. And they're all um >> Yeah. 20s and 30s. And they're all um >> Yeah. 20s and 30s. And they're all um yeah, really really yeah, really really yeah, really really >> David was saying to me that some of that >> David was saying to me that some of that >> David was saying to me that some of that drive was vanity as well. They realized drive was vanity as well. They realized drive was vanity as well. They realized that actually that actually that actually >> they felt better. They looked better. >> they felt better. They looked better. >> they felt better. They looked better. >> They felt better and looked better and >> They felt better and looked better and >> They felt better and looked better and felt lean and had six packs felt lean and had six packs felt lean and had six packs >> when they ate that way. When they ate in >> when they ate that way. When they ate in >> when they ate that way. When they ate in that sort of low carbohydrate way that that sort of low carbohydrate way that that sort of low carbohydrate way that you and David eat. Yeah. you and David eat. Yeah. you and David eat. Yeah. >> So I think for some people vanity is a >> So I think for some people vanity is a >> So I think for some people vanity is a motivating motivating motivating >> factor back isn't it? You know it's an >> factor back isn't it? You know it's an >> factor back isn't it? You know it's an important fact. We've got a important fact. We've got a important fact. We've got a granddaughter. She's 14 now and whenever granddaughter. She's 14 now and whenever granddaughter. She's 14 now and whenever she eats ultroessed food or sugar she she eats ultroessed food or sugar she she eats ultroessed food or sugar she just breaks she just breaks out. So she just breaks she just breaks out. So she just breaks she just breaks out. So she just knows she's just knows not to do just knows she's just knows not to do just knows she's just knows not to do it. Um yeah. So it it's difficult with it. Um yeah. So it it's difficult with it. Um yeah. So it it's difficult with the kids but I think you know you're the kids but I think you know you're the kids but I think you know you're you're the adults you're in charge of you're the adults you're in charge of you're the adults you're in charge of the home environment. the home environment. the home environment. >> Yeah. One of the things >> Yeah. One of the things >> Yeah. One of the things I figured out early on in my career that I figured out early on in my career that I figured out early on in my career that was really helpful for previous patients was really helpful for previous patients was really helpful for previous patients was was was >> control the environment you can control. >> control the environment you can control. >> control the environment you can control. Don't use the willpower in your house Don't use the willpower in your house Don't use the willpower in your house because you're going to have to use it because you're going to have to use it because you're going to have to use it up when you fill up petrol, when you go up when you fill up petrol, when you go up when you fill up petrol, when you go to the news agents, when you go and get to the news agents, when you go and get to the news agents, when you go and get your coffee and you're walking past the your coffee and you're walking past the your coffee and you're walking past the pan of shock lines that are waving at pan of shock lines that are waving at pan of shock lines that are waving at you, right? You're going to have to use you, right? You're going to have to use you, right? You're going to have to use your willpower there. your willpower there. your willpower there. >> Yeah. Some people there is a school of >> Yeah. Some people there is a school of >> Yeah. Some people there is a school of thought they push back and they say well thought they push back and they say well thought they push back and they say well that's not dealing with the relationship that's not dealing with the relationship that's not dealing with the relationship with foods. They'll say that you should with foods. They'll say that you should with foods. They'll say that you should be able to get to a point where you can be able to get to a point where you can be able to get to a point where you can have it there and resist. And it's not have it there and resist. And it's not have it there and resist. And it's not that I necessarily disagree with that. I that I necessarily disagree with that. I that I necessarily disagree with that. I just think that you're just making life just think that you're just making life just think that you're just making life harder for yourself harder for yourself harder for yourself >> if you're having those foods there. >> if you're having those foods there. >> if you're having those foods there. Because one evening you are going to be Because one evening you are going to be Because one evening you are going to be tired, stressed, lonely. we will have tired, stressed, lonely. we will have tired, stressed, lonely. we will have had a bad day and if it's there and had a bad day and if it's there and had a bad day and if it's there and you're in, you know, opening the you're in, you know, opening the you're in, you know, opening the cupboards looking for something and cupboards looking for something and cupboards looking for something and there's chocolate there, you're probably there's chocolate there, you're probably there's chocolate there, you're probably going to have it. going to have it. going to have it. >> I'm I'm totally with you on that. We >> I'm I'm totally with you on that. We >> I'm I'm totally with you on that. We have to resist it all day long. Let have to resist it all day long. Let have to resist it all day long. Let let's, you know, keep it safe at home. I let's, you know, keep it safe at home. I let's, you know, keep it safe at home. I don't want to eat it. So, I'm not going don't want to eat it. So, I'm not going don't want to eat it. So, I'm not going to have it at home because it, you know, to have it at home because it, you know, to have it at home because it, you know, >> and that's assuming you made the choice >> and that's assuming you made the choice >> and that's assuming you made the choice that you don't want to eat it. If you that you don't want to eat it. If you that you don't want to eat it. If you want to eat it and have at home, like, want to eat it and have at home, like, want to eat it and have at home, like, we're not saying don't have it. We're we're not saying don't have it. We're we're not saying don't have it. We're assuming that you're trying to change assuming that you're trying to change assuming that you're trying to change your relationship with those foods. your relationship with those foods. your relationship with those foods. >> Don't put it in the basket. That's the >> Don't put it in the basket. That's the >> Don't put it in the basket. That's the point. That's the point at which the point. That's the point at which the point. That's the point at which the decision is made in the supermarket. decision is made in the supermarket. decision is made in the supermarket. >> What do you do with your grandkids? >> What do you do with your grandkids? >> What do you do with your grandkids? >> Well, they they just so used to eating >> Well, they they just so used to eating >> Well, they they just so used to eating the way the way that we eat. So, um it's the way the way that we eat. So, um it's the way the way that we eat. So, um it's sort of non-food treats. So, we do other sort of non-food treats. So, we do other sort of non-food treats. So, we do other things with them. So, at Easter we'll do things with them. So, at Easter we'll do things with them. So, at Easter we'll do other activity, play games or, you know, other activity, play games or, you know, other activity, play games or, you know, walk up mountains or walk up mountains or walk up mountains or >> do something else. >> do something else. >> do something else. >> Yeah, it's hard. We've done the same >> Yeah, it's hard. We've done the same >> Yeah, it's hard. We've done the same thing, right? And it is hard because you thing, right? And it is hard because you thing, right? And it is hard because you are basically resisting the prevailing are basically resisting the prevailing are basically resisting the prevailing tide of culture. tide of culture. tide of culture. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> And it is much harder work and you need >> And it is much harder work and you need >> And it is much harder work and you need time and energy. And of course, not time and energy. And of course, not time and energy. And of course, not everyone has that. everyone has that. everyone has that. >> And so I do recognize that. But I guess >> And so I do recognize that. But I guess >> And so I do recognize that. But I guess we're sharing this to not make people we're sharing this to not make people we're sharing this to not make people feel bad, to show what might be possible feel bad, to show what might be possible feel bad, to show what might be possible and how there is a way to fight back and how there is a way to fight back and how there is a way to fight back against the food industry. against the food industry. against the food industry. >> We've been we've been there. We've, you >> We've been we've been there. We've, you >> We've been we've been there. We've, you know, that was that was my story and know, that was that was my story and know, that was that was my story and we've tried to to do something different we've tried to to do something different we've tried to to do something different and it is it is possible to to do that and it is it is possible to to do that and it is it is possible to to do that and it's not been easy at at times but and it's not been easy at at times but and it's not been easy at at times but that doesn't mean it's worth not worth that doesn't mean it's worth not worth that doesn't mean it's worth not worth uh trying to persist and and and just do uh trying to persist and and and just do uh trying to persist and and and just do a little bit better every day. If a little bit better every day. If a little bit better every day. If someone's listening, Jen, and they want someone's listening, Jen, and they want someone's listening, Jen, and they want to get involved with the community, to get involved with the community, to get involved with the community, maybe they don't have friends or family maybe they don't have friends or family maybe they don't have friends or family who are supportive, but they're really who are supportive, but they're really who are supportive, but they're really committed, is there a way they can get committed, is there a way they can get committed, is there a way they can get in touch with you or your groups? And in touch with you or your groups? And in touch with you or your groups? And and if so, how I know you have the book and if so, how I know you have the book and if so, how I know you have the book Fork in the Roads. Fork in the Roads. Fork in the Roads. Fork in the Roads. Fork in the Roads. Fork in the Roads. Great resource. Great resource. Great resource. >> Yeah, I wrote um in lockdown and it was >> Yeah, I wrote um in lockdown and it was >> Yeah, I wrote um in lockdown and it was sort of meant to be Yeah. for people sort of meant to be Yeah. for people sort of meant to be Yeah. for people that are probably listening to this that are probably listening to this that are probably listening to this conversation. It was it was for people conversation. It was it was for people conversation. It was it was for people like me who'd had these sort of lifelong like me who'd had these sort of lifelong like me who'd had these sort of lifelong struggles. It explains all about food struggles. It explains all about food struggles. It explains all about food edition and the symptoms and some of the edition and the symptoms and some of the edition and the symptoms and some of the science of it and David's done the science of it and David's done the science of it and David's done the forward. Um, but then it's also like you forward. Um, but then it's also like you forward. Um, but then it's also like you know what to eat and how to deal with know what to eat and how to deal with know what to eat and how to deal with these social situations that we all get these social situations that we all get these social situations that we all get ourselves in and what other things you ourselves in and what other things you ourselves in and what other things you might want to think about in your life. might want to think about in your life. might want to think about in your life. But it's a very little book and all the But it's a very little book and all the But it's a very little book and all the proceeds go to the the charity, the proceeds go to the the charity, the proceeds go to the the charity, the collaborative health community that I collaborative health community that I collaborative health community that I work with and that that are we're you work with and that that are we're you work with and that that are we're you know campaigning and doing research on know campaigning and doing research on know campaigning and doing research on food addiction. Um, and you know, if food addiction. Um, and you know, if food addiction. Um, and you know, if you've got a partner or a member of the you've got a partner or a member of the you've got a partner or a member of the family that doesn't get it, read the family that doesn't get it, read the family that doesn't get it, read the book yourself, but then hand it over to book yourself, but then hand it over to book yourself, but then hand it over to them because it's it's a quick read and them because it's it's a quick read and them because it's it's a quick read and it explains the problem to them in sort it explains the problem to them in sort it explains the problem to them in sort of simple terms. So, um, yeah. So, of simple terms. So, um, yeah. So, of simple terms. So, um, yeah. So, that's that's one thing to Yeah. So, the that's that's one thing to Yeah. So, the that's that's one thing to Yeah. So, the collaborative health community, you can collaborative health community, you can collaborative health community, you can look on our website. We've got look on our website. We've got look on our website. We've got information and resources for for information and resources for for information and resources for for professionals and we're just about to professionals and we're just about to professionals and we're just about to launch some um training for health care launch some um training for health care launch some um training for health care professionals so that they can professionals so that they can professionals so that they can understand how to recognize food understand how to recognize food understand how to recognize food addiction in the clinic and and what to addiction in the clinic and and what to addiction in the clinic and and what to do about it and also we've got do about it and also we've got do about it and also we've got information for for the public and some information for for the public and some information for for the public and some more resources that people can can look more resources that people can can look more resources that people can can look at. at. at. You have practiced as a clinical You have practiced as a clinical You have practiced as a clinical psychologist for over 30 years I believe psychologist for over 30 years I believe psychologist for over 30 years I believe and I've heard you talk and I've heard you talk and I've heard you talk before about the role of hope in before about the role of hope in before about the role of hope in healthcare. healthcare. healthcare. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Why in your opinion is it so important >> Why in your opinion is it so important >> Why in your opinion is it so important to have hope? to have hope? to have hope? So yes, hope was my um So yes, hope was my um So yes, hope was my um my passion really before I got into all my passion really before I got into all my passion really before I got into all of this space about uh food addiction of this space about uh food addiction of this space about uh food addiction and I my doctorate on the role of hope and I my doctorate on the role of hope and I my doctorate on the role of hope in in healthcare. Um hope is about in in healthcare. Um hope is about in in healthcare. Um hope is about having a sense of a possible better having a sense of a possible better having a sense of a possible better future. It's about future. It's about future. It's about believing that believing that believing that you can see the steps to that future and you can see the steps to that future and you can see the steps to that future and believing that you've got the motivation believing that you've got the motivation believing that you've got the motivation to take those steps or the yeah, you've to take those steps or the yeah, you've to take those steps or the yeah, you've got the you you're going to be able to got the you you're going to be able to got the you you're going to be able to take those small steps. And when people take those small steps. And when people take those small steps. And when people have that sense of hope, it has such a have that sense of hope, it has such a have that sense of hope, it has such a massive impact on how they cope with massive impact on how they cope with massive impact on how they cope with everything in in life really. Um, and everything in in life really. Um, and everything in in life really. Um, and even about, you know, things like the even about, you know, things like the even about, you know, things like the level of pain they experience or the level of pain they experience or the level of pain they experience or the amount of medication that they take or amount of medication that they take or amount of medication that they take or even it's even been linked with even it's even been linked with even it's even been linked with longevity to have that that sense of longevity to have that that sense of longevity to have that that sense of moving towards a preferred future. And I moving towards a preferred future. And I moving towards a preferred future. And I think often in in healthcare settings, think often in in healthcare settings, think often in in healthcare settings, people are so people are so people are so um um um they've lost hope really. they've lost hope really. they've lost hope really. >> Yeah. and they've they've they've >> Yeah. and they've they've they've >> Yeah. and they've they've they've they've come it's almost like a sort of they've come it's almost like a sort of they've come it's almost like a sort of you know particularly a lot of people you know particularly a lot of people you know particularly a lot of people that that come to see us are it's like that that come to see us are it's like that that come to see us are it's like you're the last house on the street you're the last house on the street you're the last house on the street really they've you know they've they've really they've you know they've they've really they've you know they've they've tried everything and they've they've tried everything and they've they've tried everything and they've they've sort of become very hopeless. So it's sort of become very hopeless. So it's sort of become very hopeless. So it's very important as healthcare very important as healthcare very important as healthcare practitioners that we're able to instill practitioners that we're able to instill practitioners that we're able to instill that sense that that sense that that sense that you know they they can get to they can you know they they can get to they can you know they they can get to they can get to a better place and they've got get to a better place and they've got get to a better place and they've got the the wherewithal to do that. you were the the wherewithal to do that. you were the the wherewithal to do that. you were talking about sort of, you know, talking about sort of, you know, talking about sort of, you know, you know, often people that we see are you know, often people that we see are you know, often people that we see are very competent in many walks of their very competent in many walks of their very competent in many walks of their lives. They've got successful careers lives. They've got successful careers lives. They've got successful careers or, you know, they've they've got a or, you know, they've they've got a or, you know, they've they've got a lovely family. Um, but they they just lovely family. Um, but they they just lovely family. Um, but they they just there's this one area that they can't there's this one area that they can't there's this one area that they can't crack. Like in this case, we're talking crack. Like in this case, we're talking crack. Like in this case, we're talking about the food. They've sort of lost about the food. They've sort of lost about the food. They've sort of lost lost hope there. And it's about trying lost hope there. And it's about trying lost hope there. And it's about trying to give people to give people to give people the hope and the the confidence that the hope and the the confidence that the hope and the the confidence that they can actually take the steps. You they can actually take the steps. You they can actually take the steps. You know, they've got that within them to know, they've got that within them to know, they've got that within them to take the steps to this better future. take the steps to this better future. take the steps to this better future. And, you know, not that it's all going And, you know, not that it's all going And, you know, not that it's all going to be plain sailing, but, you know, that to be plain sailing, but, you know, that to be plain sailing, but, you know, that they will get there in the end with, you they will get there in the end with, you they will get there in the end with, you know, with some care and and support. know, with some care and and support. know, with some care and and support. And often all you're trying to do is And often all you're trying to do is And often all you're trying to do is uncover that for people. You know, like uncover that for people. You know, like uncover that for people. You know, like for Chris that you spoke to, it was only for Chris that you spoke to, it was only for Chris that you spoke to, it was only a matter of showing him that there was a a matter of showing him that there was a a matter of showing him that there was a way way way >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. um that he could recover his health, um that he could recover his health, um that he could recover his health, which he at that point probably could which he at that point probably could which he at that point probably could barely believe that he would end up on barely believe that he would end up on barely believe that he would end up on no medication and going to the gym every no medication and going to the gym every no medication and going to the gym every day. Um, day. Um, day. Um, >> well, I think Jen, what you clearly do >> well, I think Jen, what you clearly do >> well, I think Jen, what you clearly do with this work and what you've been with this work and what you've been with this work and what you've been doing for many years to try and raise doing for many years to try and raise doing for many years to try and raise awareness of food addiction, sugar awareness of food addiction, sugar awareness of food addiction, sugar addiction, UPF addiction, that this is a addiction, UPF addiction, that this is a addiction, UPF addiction, that this is a problem that many people are struggling problem that many people are struggling problem that many people are struggling with that we need to recognize and we with that we need to recognize and we with that we need to recognize and we need to give people solutions to or need to give people solutions to or need to give people solutions to or certainly practical steps they can take. certainly practical steps they can take. certainly practical steps they can take. That is giving people hope. I'm sure That is giving people hope. I'm sure That is giving people hope. I'm sure there's many people who've taken hope there's many people who've taken hope there's many people who've taken hope just from hearing you today. Even the just from hearing you today. Even the just from hearing you today. Even the fact that you've managed to I don't know fact that you've managed to I don't know fact that you've managed to I don't know if you you you would you would say if you you you would you would say if you you you would you would say you've conquered your food addiction or you've conquered your food addiction or you've conquered your food addiction or you've learned how to manage it and you've learned how to manage it and you've learned how to manage it and >> you learned to live with it like >> you learned to live with it like >> you learned to live with it like migraine or something like that you know migraine or something like that you know migraine or something like that you know it's the same it's always or type two it's the same it's always or type two it's the same it's always or type two diabetes it's diabetes it's diabetes it's >> it it's in the background but it it's >> it it's in the background but it it's >> it it's in the background but it it's not it's not impinging on your quality not it's not impinging on your quality not it's not impinging on your quality of life. of life. of life. >> Can I just go through a few questions >> Can I just go through a few questions >> Can I just go through a few questions that some of my that some of my that some of my >> of course >> of course >> of course >> the listeners uh and people on Instagram >> the listeners uh and people on Instagram >> the listeners uh and people on Instagram have sent in. We'll maybe just take have sent in. We'll maybe just take have sent in. We'll maybe just take three or four of them. something you've three or four of them. something you've three or four of them. something you've kind of covered, so you can give a quick kind of covered, so you can give a quick kind of covered, so you can give a quick overview if you want. Uh, Renie says, overview if you want. Uh, Renie says, overview if you want. Uh, Renie says, "Jen, I'd like some tips, please, on "Jen, I'd like some tips, please, on "Jen, I'd like some tips, please, on reducing sugar intake in children reducing sugar intake in children reducing sugar intake in children >> and encouraging them to make healthier >> and encouraging them to make healthier >> and encouraging them to make healthier choices without feeling like they are choices without feeling like they are choices without feeling like they are missing out." As well as that, Jen, she missing out." As well as that, Jen, she missing out." As well as that, Jen, she also says, "Sometimes I feel I'm the also says, "Sometimes I feel I'm the also says, "Sometimes I feel I'm the worst mom ever." worst mom ever." worst mom ever." >> Oh, >> Oh, >> Oh, >> right. Because I ultimately crack and >> right. Because I ultimately crack and >> right. Because I ultimately crack and let them do these things. So, let them do these things. So, let them do these things. So, It's so hard, isn't it? Real sympathies, It's so hard, isn't it? Real sympathies, It's so hard, isn't it? Real sympathies, you know, bringing up children, you know, bringing up children, you know, bringing up children, >> it's complicated, you know, the screens >> it's complicated, you know, the screens >> it's complicated, you know, the screens and the devices and and the food and the devices and and the food and the devices and and the food environment. I think it it's incredibly environment. I think it it's incredibly environment. I think it it's incredibly hard. So, the fact that you're trying to hard. So, the fact that you're trying to hard. So, the fact that you're trying to do your best and you're thinking about do your best and you're thinking about do your best and you're thinking about it, I think that's it, I think that's it, I think that's >> so ludable. >> so ludable. >> so ludable. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, I think we've talked quite a lot about I think we've talked quite a lot about I think we've talked quite a lot about not having stuff in the house. And I not having stuff in the house. And I not having stuff in the house. And I think that is think that is think that is >> it's a great place to start. >> it's a great place to start. >> it's a great place to start. >> It's a really good place to start. Also, >> It's a really good place to start. Also, >> It's a really good place to start. Also, you can start with breakfasts. That's you can start with breakfasts. That's you can start with breakfasts. That's another thing that we often say um to another thing that we often say um to another thing that we often say um to families is, you know, start with a good families is, you know, start with a good families is, you know, start with a good healthy breakfast with maybe eggs or, healthy breakfast with maybe eggs or, healthy breakfast with maybe eggs or, you know, full fat yogurt. These kinds you know, full fat yogurt. These kinds you know, full fat yogurt. These kinds of things that aren't of things that aren't of things that aren't cereals, not sugary cereals. It's a good cereals, not sugary cereals. It's a good cereals, not sugary cereals. It's a good place to start with kids. And actually, place to start with kids. And actually, place to start with kids. And actually, you know, they love kids love baking and you know, they love kids love baking and you know, they love kids love baking and eggs. So, you know, that can be a great eggs. So, you know, that can be a great eggs. So, you know, that can be a great place to start or or another way to help place to start or or another way to help place to start or or another way to help involve them with making stuff. So, with involve them with making stuff. So, with involve them with making stuff. So, with um with our grandkids um if they stay um with our grandkids um if they stay um with our grandkids um if they stay over and they're going to school the over and they're going to school the over and they're going to school the next morning, I just do a quick smoothie next morning, I just do a quick smoothie next morning, I just do a quick smoothie with um like forest fruits, usually some with um like forest fruits, usually some with um like forest fruits, usually some frozen fruits cuz that's a bit cheaper, frozen fruits cuz that's a bit cheaper, frozen fruits cuz that's a bit cheaper, full fat yogurt, um you know, blitz it full fat yogurt, um you know, blitz it full fat yogurt, um you know, blitz it all up and they they slug that down all up and they they slug that down all up and they they slug that down before they go to school. So, but they before they go to school. So, but they before they go to school. So, but they love to make things like that, kids, love to make things like that, kids, love to make things like that, kids, don't they? So, I think if you can don't they? So, I think if you can don't they? So, I think if you can involve them in cooking, um yeah, don't involve them in cooking, um yeah, don't involve them in cooking, um yeah, don't have the worst things in the house. Um have the worst things in the house. Um have the worst things in the house. Um that's that's that's >> yeah, great advice. >> yeah, great advice. >> yeah, great advice. >> Two tips. >> Two tips. >> Two tips. >> Um the other thing that I would add is >> Um the other thing that I would add is >> Um the other thing that I would add is one thing I try to do with my children one thing I try to do with my children one thing I try to do with my children is is help them start to see the is is help them start to see the is is help them start to see the relationship between what they eat and relationship between what they eat and relationship between what they eat and how they feel. So, if they have been at how they feel. So, if they have been at how they feel. So, if they have been at a party or whatever and they've had a party or whatever and they've had a party or whatever and they've had pizza, whatever it might be, and they pizza, whatever it might be, and they pizza, whatever it might be, and they don't feel good afterwards or I don't don't feel good afterwards or I don't don't feel good afterwards or I don't know, they come out on the spot the next know, they come out on the spot the next know, they come out on the spot the next morning or what do you know what I mean? morning or what do you know what I mean? morning or what do you know what I mean? Just some way of trying to Just some way of trying to Just some way of trying to >> um connect >> um connect >> um connect >> that when I eat like this, this happens. >> that when I eat like this, this happens. >> that when I eat like this, this happens. When I eat like this, I've got more When I eat like this, I've got more When I eat like this, I've got more energy. energy. energy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I believe that long term, that's a very >> I believe that long term, that's a very >> I believe that long term, that's a very helpful thing because ultimately at some helpful thing because ultimately at some helpful thing because ultimately at some point they're going to be out of your point they're going to be out of your point they're going to be out of your control. They're going to make their own control. They're going to make their own control. They're going to make their own choices. and if they can see the impact choices. and if they can see the impact choices. and if they can see the impact of their choices, it's much easier to of their choices, it's much easier to of their choices, it's much easier to start changing that. start changing that. start changing that. >> Um, Sarah says, "I would be interested >> Um, Sarah says, "I would be interested >> Um, Sarah says, "I would be interested to know if not being breastfed to know if not being breastfed to know if not being breastfed >> increases the likelihood of sugar >> increases the likelihood of sugar >> increases the likelihood of sugar addiction." I don't know if you know addiction." I don't know if you know addiction." I don't know if you know anything about that. anything about that. anything about that. >> I I don't know that there's any evidence >> I I don't know that there's any evidence >> I I don't know that there's any evidence about it, but this is a thing that I've about it, but this is a thing that I've about it, but this is a thing that I've I've actually tweeted a thing to say who I've actually tweeted a thing to say who I've actually tweeted a thing to say who out there has got a sugar addiction who out there has got a sugar addiction who out there has got a sugar addiction who was bottlefed. I really think there is was bottlefed. I really think there is was bottlefed. I really think there is there is a a link but I don't know that there is a a link but I don't know that there is a a link but I don't know that there's any evidence but it's something there's any evidence but it's something there's any evidence but it's something that I've really thought about and you that I've really thought about and you that I've really thought about and you know a lot of the formulas did have know a lot of the formulas did have know a lot of the formulas did have sugar in I was bottlefed you know sugar in I was bottlefed you know sugar in I was bottlefed you know it wouldn't be surprising that that if it wouldn't be surprising that that if it wouldn't be surprising that that if that sort of um you know set you up to that sort of um you know set you up to that sort of um you know set you up to some extent now you know we know that some extent now you know we know that some extent now you know we know that >> people have to bottle feed so we don't >> people have to bottle feed so we don't >> people have to bottle feed so we don't want anybody sort of feeling guilty want anybody sort of feeling guilty want anybody sort of feeling guilty about that but it It may be that in about that but it It may be that in about that but it It may be that in those of us with that slight genetic those of us with that slight genetic those of us with that slight genetic vulnerability may maybe that is a factor vulnerability may maybe that is a factor vulnerability may maybe that is a factor and you know to choose the feeds that and you know to choose the feeds that and you know to choose the feeds that that don't have the excess sugars in that don't have the excess sugars in that don't have the excess sugars in them. them. them. >> Yeah. And I I want to just double down >> Yeah. And I I want to just double down >> Yeah. And I I want to just double down on on what you just said there which is on on what you just said there which is on on what you just said there which is we don't want anyone to feel guilty. we don't want anyone to feel guilty. we don't want anyone to feel guilty. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Um people often have to bottle feed for >> Um people often have to bottle feed for >> Um people often have to bottle feed for a variety of different reasons. you a variety of different reasons. you a variety of different reasons. you know, and it's like, you know, know, and it's like, you know, know, and it's like, you know, breastfeeding is really good for the gut breastfeeding is really good for the gut breastfeeding is really good for the gut microbiome, but if you had to bottle microbiome, but if you had to bottle microbiome, but if you had to bottle feed your child, there were other things feed your child, there were other things feed your child, there were other things you can do to help you can do to help you can do to help >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> increase the health of the gut >> increase the health of the gut >> increase the health of the gut microbiome. microbiome. microbiome. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And same thing here. Yeah. If you've had >> And same thing here. Yeah. If you've had >> And same thing here. Yeah. If you've had to do that, don't feel guilty. Just try to do that, don't feel guilty. Just try to do that, don't feel guilty. Just try and absorb the things that we've been and absorb the things that we've been and absorb the things that we've been talking about and figure out how you can talking about and figure out how you can talking about and figure out how you can actually change things at home perhaps actually change things at home perhaps actually change things at home perhaps to to to to to to to to to >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, to account for that. Uh Sharon >> You know, to account for that. Uh Sharon >> You know, to account for that. Uh Sharon says, "I'm really struggling with says, "I'm really struggling with says, "I'm really struggling with this. I'm definitely addicted to all this. I'm definitely addicted to all this. I'm definitely addicted to all things sugary. I read books. I Google things sugary. I read books. I Google things sugary. I read books. I Google subjects. I literally last about 2 to subjects. I literally last about 2 to subjects. I literally last about 2 to three days, then I crumble. It's not three days, then I crumble. It's not three days, then I crumble. It's not just what I eat. It's the quantity, too. just what I eat. It's the quantity, too. just what I eat. It's the quantity, too. How can I get past this when I feel I How can I get past this when I feel I How can I get past this when I feel I have no willpower or discipline?" have no willpower or discipline?" have no willpower or discipline?" >> Well, that's kind of our entire >> Well, that's kind of our entire >> Well, that's kind of our entire conversation, I guess, Jed, isn't it? conversation, I guess, Jed, isn't it? conversation, I guess, Jed, isn't it? >> Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And the >> Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And the >> Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And the thing is in the early days to not be res thing is in the early days to not be res thing is in the early days to not be res don't be restricting your proteins and don't be restricting your proteins and don't be restricting your proteins and your fats because that's how you build a your fats because that's how you build a your fats because that's how you build a body and brain and you got to repair the body and brain and you got to repair the body and brain and you got to repair the brain. You've got to be having the right brain. You've got to be having the right brain. You've got to be having the right nutrients otherwise you will be getting nutrients otherwise you will be getting nutrients otherwise you will be getting cravings. So um I I think I don't know cravings. So um I I think I don't know cravings. So um I I think I don't know that that's the case but I would say you that that's the case but I would say you that that's the case but I would say you know be eating plenty and regularly when know be eating plenty and regularly when know be eating plenty and regularly when you're trying to quit sugar be eating you're trying to quit sugar be eating you're trying to quit sugar be eating plenty of good foods because plenty of good foods because plenty of good foods because >> you you will get the cravings. Yeah. and >> you you will get the cravings. Yeah. and >> you you will get the cravings. Yeah. and two or three days. Yeah, you're not two or three days. Yeah, you're not two or three days. Yeah, you're not through you're not through the worst of through you're not through the worst of through you're not through the worst of it then. Um probably I would say for it then. Um probably I would say for it then. Um probably I would say for someone like that to to join a a program someone like that to to join a a program someone like that to to join a a program if you go to our website if you go to our website if you go to our website >> which is >> which is >> which is >> the chc-.org. Yeah. And and you know think about Yeah. And and you know think about signing up for a program because then signing up for a program because then signing up for a program because then you're you know you're getting expert you're you know you're getting expert you're you know you're getting expert advice, you're getting support on the advice, you're getting support on the advice, you're getting support on the way through, you're talking to other way through, you're talking to other way through, you're talking to other people who are going through the same people who are going through the same people who are going through the same thing. um it makes such a difference. If thing. um it makes such a difference. If thing. um it makes such a difference. If you if you can't do it on your own, you if you can't do it on your own, you if you can't do it on your own, definitely join a program. definitely join a program. definitely join a program. >> One thing we've not fully gone into >> One thing we've not fully gone into >> One thing we've not fully gone into today, but you've touched on it a few today, but you've touched on it a few today, but you've touched on it a few times, and I just want to make sure times, and I just want to make sure times, and I just want to make sure we've we've sort of covered this for we've we've sort of covered this for we've we've sort of covered this for completion, is this idea that sometimes, completion, is this idea that sometimes, completion, is this idea that sometimes, your desire for sugar is a consequence your desire for sugar is a consequence your desire for sugar is a consequence of what you ate or didn't eat of what you ate or didn't eat of what you ate or didn't eat previously. You know, so if you had a previously. You know, so if you had a previously. You know, so if you had a sugary cereal for breakfast, well, your sugary cereal for breakfast, well, your sugary cereal for breakfast, well, your blood sugar may have shot up. blood sugar may have shot up. blood sugar may have shot up. >> 3 hours later, it may start to crash >> 3 hours later, it may start to crash >> 3 hours later, it may start to crash down and you then crave when it's down and you then crave when it's down and you then crave when it's crashing down. crashing down. crashing down. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But actually, >> But actually, >> But actually, >> it may be that you don't have a sugar >> it may be that you don't have a sugar >> it may be that you don't have a sugar addiction problem. It may simply be that addiction problem. It may simply be that addiction problem. It may simply be that actually that craving is a consequence actually that craving is a consequence actually that craving is a consequence of your blood sugar drop. of your blood sugar drop. of your blood sugar drop. >> A blood sugar problem. >> A blood sugar problem. >> A blood sugar problem. >> Yeah. And so if you were able to have um >> Yeah. And so if you were able to have um >> Yeah. And so if you were able to have um a breakfast as you said with with some a breakfast as you said with with some a breakfast as you said with with some eggs for example and some avocado and eggs for example and some avocado and eggs for example and some avocado and some yogurt some you know a more some yogurt some you know a more some yogurt some you know a more proteinrich and healthy fatrich proteinrich and healthy fatrich proteinrich and healthy fatrich breakfast breakfast breakfast >> you may find you don't have the craving. >> you may find you don't have the craving. >> you may find you don't have the craving. I know many patients over the years I know many patients over the years I know many patients over the years who've been in that situation if you're who've been in that situation if you're who've been in that situation if you're having protein you know you're just not having protein you know you're just not having protein you know you're just not as hungry and as as cravy. Yeah. Yeah. as hungry and as as cravy. Yeah. Yeah. as hungry and as as cravy. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. And of course for some people >> Yeah. And of course for some people >> Yeah. And of course for some people these CGMs which I briefly spoke to you these CGMs which I briefly spoke to you these CGMs which I briefly spoke to you know these continuous glucose monitors know these continuous glucose monitors know these continuous glucose monitors can be a very useful tool maybe not I can be a very useful tool maybe not I can be a very useful tool maybe not I don't mean long term necessarily but don't mean long term necessarily but don't mean long term necessarily but >> you know a twoe trial >> you know a twoe trial >> you know a twoe trial >> you can learn a massive >> you can learn a massive >> you can learn a massive >> you can learn a ton you can go oh wow >> you can learn a ton you can go oh wow >> you can learn a ton you can go oh wow actually every time I'm craving sugar actually every time I'm craving sugar actually every time I'm craving sugar it's because my it's because my it's because my >> blood glucose is dropping >> blood glucose is dropping >> blood glucose is dropping >> what if I change what I ate and my blood >> what if I change what I ate and my blood >> what if I change what I ate and my blood sugar didn't go have these highs and sugar didn't go have these highs and sugar didn't go have these highs and lows up and down lows up and down lows up and down >> for some people their cravings vanish >> for some people their cravings vanish >> for some people their cravings vanish when they eat that Okay. Yeah. So, when they eat that Okay. Yeah. So, when they eat that Okay. Yeah. So, >> you you learn a a massive amount. And >> you you learn a a massive amount. And >> you you learn a a massive amount. And the other thing, it can be really good the other thing, it can be really good the other thing, it can be really good if you've kind of having a bit of a if you've kind of having a bit of a if you've kind of having a bit of a wobble and you want to reset. There's wobble and you want to reset. There's wobble and you want to reset. There's something about seeing it in real time something about seeing it in real time something about seeing it in real time on on your phone and you're wanting to on on your phone and you're wanting to on on your phone and you're wanting to keep your line. People like me anyway, keep your line. People like me anyway, keep your line. People like me anyway, you want to sort of you want to keep the you want to sort of you want to keep the you want to sort of you want to keep the line flat. You just get that feedback line flat. You just get that feedback line flat. You just get that feedback immediately. Um, and you see the kinds immediately. Um, and you see the kinds immediately. Um, and you see the kinds of foods that for you personally put up of foods that for you personally put up of foods that for you personally put up the blood sugar. So yeah, a lot of the blood sugar. So yeah, a lot of the blood sugar. So yeah, a lot of people with of sugar addiction problem people with of sugar addiction problem people with of sugar addiction problem do really well trying trying out uh CGM. do really well trying trying out uh CGM. do really well trying trying out uh CGM. >> Jen, I've thoroughly enjoyed our >> Jen, I've thoroughly enjoyed our >> Jen, I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. I think you're doing like conversation. I think you're doing like conversation. I think you're doing like your husband together, you guys are your husband together, you guys are your husband together, you guys are doing such incredible work. doing such incredible work. doing such incredible work. Final question is for that person who Final question is for that person who Final question is for that person who throughout this conversation has throughout this conversation has throughout this conversation has recognized recognized recognized that actually you know what that actually you know what that actually you know what >> they've realized that they have a >> they've realized that they have a >> they've realized that they have a problematic relationship with food that problematic relationship with food that problematic relationship with food that they've never properly they've never properly they've never properly admitted to themselves. They perhaps admitted to themselves. They perhaps admitted to themselves. They perhaps hidden it from the people around them. hidden it from the people around them. hidden it from the people around them. >> Of course, this conversation is full of >> Of course, this conversation is full of >> Of course, this conversation is full of advice and tips on that already. advice and tips on that already. advice and tips on that already. But for that person who thinks it's too But for that person who thinks it's too But for that person who thinks it's too late for them to change, what would you late for them to change, what would you late for them to change, what would you say to them? say to them? say to them? >> Oh gosh, never too late. So we've we've >> Oh gosh, never too late. So we've we've >> Oh gosh, never too late. So we've we've had patients in their 60s and 70s come had patients in their 60s and 70s come had patients in their 60s and 70s come along and make huge leaps in their along and make huge leaps in their along and make huge leaps in their mental and and physical health by, you mental and and physical health by, you mental and and physical health by, you know, by quitting the the sugars and know, by quitting the the sugars and know, by quitting the the sugars and ultrarocessed food, replacing it with ultrarocessed food, replacing it with ultrarocessed food, replacing it with real whole nutrient-dense food. And then real whole nutrient-dense food. And then real whole nutrient-dense food. And then that's as we've said given them the sort that's as we've said given them the sort that's as we've said given them the sort of energy and the and the focus to do of energy and the and the focus to do of energy and the and the focus to do other things in their lives. other things in their lives. other things in their lives. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, you've studied the role of hope in >> Well, you've studied the role of hope in >> Well, you've studied the role of hope in healthcare. I think you've left people healthcare. I think you've left people healthcare. I think you've left people with a lot of hope at the end of this with a lot of hope at the end of this with a lot of hope at the end of this conversation. Thank you so much for conversation. Thank you so much for conversation. Thank you so much for coming on the show. coming on the show. coming on the show. >> I hope so. Thank you very much. >> I hope so. Thank you very much. >> I hope so. Thank you very much. >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then I >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then I >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then I think you are really going to enjoy this think you are really going to enjoy this think you are really going to enjoy this one that I've picked out especially. one that I've picked out especially. one that I've picked out especially. When you consume sugar, you are When you consume sugar, you are When you consume sugar, you are poisoning your mitochondria. Sugar and poisoning your mitochondria. Sugar and poisoning your mitochondria. Sugar and cyanide do the same thing.