The Era of AI Agents | Aaron Levie on The a16z Show

The diffusion of AI capability is going The diffusion of AI capability is going to take longer than people in Silicon to take longer than people in Silicon to take longer than people in Silicon Valley realize. Valley realize. Valley realize. >> It's just absurd to think you're going >> It's just absurd to think you're going >> It's just absurd to think you're going to vibe code your way to like SAP. All to vibe code your way to like SAP. All to vibe code your way to like SAP. All of that domain knowledge, it's not just of that domain knowledge, it's not just of that domain knowledge, it's not just represented in some well orchestrated represented in some well orchestrated represented in some well orchestrated data layer. data layer. data layer. >> The engineering compute budget >> The engineering compute budget >> The engineering compute budget conversation is going to be the most conversation is going to be the most conversation is going to be the most wild one in the next couple years. wild one in the next couple years. wild one in the next couple years. >> The biggest problem right now is >> The biggest problem right now is >> The biggest problem right now is everybody is trying to figure out the everybody is trying to figure out the everybody is trying to figure out the economics of all of this when they're economics of all of this when they're economics of all of this when they're off by at least an order of magnitude on off by at least an order of magnitude on off by at least an order of magnitude on how big the opportunity is. If you have how big the opportunity is. If you have how big the opportunity is. If you have a hundred or a thousand times more a hundred or a thousand times more a hundred or a thousand times more agents than people, then your software agents than people, then your software agents than people, then your software has to be built for agents. has to be built for agents. has to be built for agents. >> People in the abstract say things like, >> People in the abstract say things like, >> People in the abstract say things like, "Now you're marketing to agents that "Now you're marketing to agents that "Now you're marketing to agents that you're like an API. You've got a good you're like an API. You've got a good you're like an API. You've got a good IDL." I actually think that's almost IDL." I actually think that's almost IDL." I actually think that's almost exactly wrong, which is exactly wrong, which is exactly wrong, which is >> wow, this is breaking podcast news. >> wow, this is breaking podcast news. >> wow, this is breaking podcast news. >> If you start to imagine that we all have >> If you start to imagine that we all have >> If you start to imagine that we all have to build software for agents, I think to build software for agents, I think to build software for agents, I think we're like all clear on that, right? So we're like all clear on that, right? So we're like all clear on that, right? So like that trend is happening which is like that trend is happening which is like that trend is happening which is like we spend as much time now thinking like we spend as much time now thinking like we spend as much time now thinking about the agent interface to our tool as about the agent interface to our tool as about the agent interface to our tool as we do the human interface. Sure. And the we do the human interface. Sure. And the we do the human interface. Sure. And the reason we're doing that is because our reason we're doing that is because our reason we're doing that is because our hypothesis would be that if you have a hypothesis would be that if you have a hypothesis would be that if you have a hundred or a thousand times more agents hundred or a thousand times more agents hundred or a thousand times more agents than people than people than people >> then your software has to be built for >> then your software has to be built for >> then your software has to be built for agents. And then what what is the way agents. And then what what is the way agents. And then what what is the way that those agents are going to interact that those agents are going to interact that those agents are going to interact with your system? It's going to be with your system? It's going to be with your system? It's going to be through an API or a CLI or MCP or through an API or a CLI or MCP or through an API or a CLI or MCP or whatever. And the the paradigm that whatever. And the the paradigm that whatever. And the the paradigm that appears to be taking off and is quite appears to be taking off and is quite appears to be taking off and is quite successful so far in terms of efficacy successful so far in terms of efficacy successful so far in terms of efficacy is what if you give a coding agent is what if you give a coding agent is what if you give a coding agent access to your SAS tools and uh a coding access to your SAS tools and uh a coding access to your SAS tools and uh a coding agent access to you know your your agent access to you know your your agent access to you know your your knowledge work sort of workflows and knowledge work sort of workflows and knowledge work sort of workflows and context and that kind of becomes this context and that kind of becomes this context and that kind of becomes this superpower which is it's not just like superpower which is it's not just like superpower which is it's not just like the agent is not only capable of like the agent is not only capable of like the agent is not only capable of like you know reading some data understanding you know reading some data understanding you know reading some data understanding some information it can actually code some information it can actually code some information it can actually code its way or uses APIs you know through its way or uses APIs you know through its way or uses APIs you know through whatever task it's trying to achieve. whatever task it's trying to achieve. whatever task it's trying to achieve. That appears to be like a like a That appears to be like a like a That appears to be like a like a paradigm that is is starting to paradigm that is is starting to paradigm that is is starting to compound. And you know that was the compound. And you know that was the compound. And you know that was the that's the claw cloud co-work that's the claw cloud co-work that's the claw cloud co-work phenomenon. That's the whatever OpenAI phenomenon. That's the whatever OpenAI phenomenon. That's the whatever OpenAI is is kind of cooking up. Um you know is is kind of cooking up. Um you know is is kind of cooking up. Um you know with the super app perplexity computer with the super app perplexity computer with the super app perplexity computer etc. And uh and I actually think it it etc. And uh and I actually think it it etc. And uh and I actually think it it it kind of makes sense as like the it kind of makes sense as like the it kind of makes sense as like the ultimate manifestation of this stuff. ultimate manifestation of this stuff. ultimate manifestation of this stuff. >> I think I mean I think you're right. It >> I think I mean I think you're right. It >> I think I mean I think you're right. It it it makes sense in a in an theoretical it it makes sense in a in an theoretical it it makes sense in a in an theoretical way. Yeah. way. Yeah. way. Yeah. >> But in a in a practical way, we have to >> But in a in a practical way, we have to >> But in a in a practical way, we have to be really careful in that be really careful in that be really careful in that >> that the way to say it is algorithmic >> that the way to say it is algorithmic >> that the way to say it is algorithmic thinking thinking thinking >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> is really really really hard for the >> is really really really hard for the >> is really really really hard for the vast majority of people who have jobs. vast majority of people who have jobs. vast majority of people who have jobs. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And and so the the easiest way to think >> And and so the the easiest way to think >> And and so the the easiest way to think about it is if you were to go into any about it is if you were to go into any about it is if you were to go into any person and ask them to create a person and ask them to create a person and ask them to create a flowchart for a particular thing that flowchart for a particular thing that flowchart for a particular thing that they have to go do, they would probably they have to go do, they would probably they have to go do, they would probably fail. Yeah. At producing that flowchart. fail. Yeah. At producing that flowchart. fail. Yeah. At producing that flowchart. Yep. Yep. Yep. >> There. So within any organization, you >> There. So within any organization, you >> There. So within any organization, you know, say doing a marketing plan and know, say doing a marketing plan and know, say doing a marketing plan and there's 50 marketing people working on a there's 50 marketing people working on a there's 50 marketing people working on a giant product line. Yep. giant product line. Yep. giant product line. Yep. >> One person probably understands and >> One person probably understands and >> One person probably understands and could document the flowchart could document the flowchart could document the flowchart >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> So if you put one of these agents >> So if you put one of these agents >> So if you put one of these agents >> or you put this this this tool, this >> or you put this this this tool, this >> or you put this this this tool, this co-working tool in front of people to co-working tool in front of people to co-working tool in front of people to create these things, their ability to create these things, their ability to create these things, their ability to explain to it explain to it explain to it >> what to do is really really limited >> what to do is really really limited >> what to do is really really limited >> 100%. So then you're >> 100%. So then you're >> 100%. So then you're >> but what if that becomes the new this is >> but what if that becomes the new this is >> but what if that becomes the new this is the new way you have to interface with the new way you have to interface with the new way you have to interface with computers and you just have to cycle computers and you just have to cycle computers and you just have to cycle that through. that through. that through. >> Well then you're what you you're >> Well then you're what you you're >> Well then you're what you you're basically you you just go back to basically you you just go back to basically you you just go back to you're basically just developing the you're basically just developing the you're basically just developing the next abstraction layer for how people next abstraction layer for how people next abstraction layer for how people interact. Yeah. And the developing an interact. Yeah. And the developing an interact. Yeah. And the developing an abstraction layer has historically at abstraction layer has historically at abstraction layer has historically at each level of the abstraction layer been each level of the abstraction layer been each level of the abstraction layer been a highly skilled very specific a highly skilled very specific a highly skilled very specific individual within an organization individual within an organization individual within an organization developing that. And then the little developing that. And then the little developing that. And then the little parts that they build just become little parts that they build just become little parts that they build just become little toollets in the world of people doing toollets in the world of people doing toollets in the world of people doing particular tasks. And some people are particular tasks. And some people are particular tasks. And some people are able to stitch them together and some able to stitch them together and some able to stitch them together and some can't. But that happened with paper can't. But that happened with paper can't. But that happened with paper clips and thumbtacks before and it's clips and thumbtacks before and it's clips and thumbtacks before and it's going to happen with whatever we do going to happen with whatever we do going to happen with whatever we do next. next. next. >> I I think that I I think basically the >> I I think that I I think basically the >> I I think that I I think basically the timeless part is is the job just moves timeless part is is the job just moves timeless part is is the job just moves up a rung and and and you learn a new up a rung and and and you learn a new up a rung and and and you learn a new set of skills and and that's why I set of skills and and that's why I set of skills and and that's why I actually don't think anything about this actually don't think anything about this actually don't think anything about this is any different. Uh it's just now the is any different. Uh it's just now the is any different. Uh it's just now the leverage you get is obviously you know leverage you get is obviously you know leverage you get is obviously you know fantastic. Uh there was this viral um uh fantastic. Uh there was this viral um uh fantastic. Uh there was this viral um uh kind of tweet that went around which was kind of tweet that went around which was kind of tweet that went around which was the anthropic growth marketer. Did you the anthropic growth marketer. Did you the anthropic growth marketer. Did you guys see this? It's basically one person guys see this? It's basically one person guys see this? It's basically one person and and he was using claude code at the and and he was using claude code at the and and he was using claude code at the time to basically you know more or less time to basically you know more or less time to basically you know more or less automate what maybe five or 10 people automate what maybe five or 10 people automate what maybe five or 10 people would have done in various kind of silo would have done in various kind of silo would have done in various kind of silo jobs. And um uh and I think the reason jobs. And um uh and I think the reason jobs. And um uh and I think the reason why it's interesting is is yeah you had why it's interesting is is yeah you had why it's interesting is is yeah you had to have been a systems thinker to be to have been a systems thinker to be to have been a systems thinker to be able to accomplish that. So like clearly able to accomplish that. So like clearly able to accomplish that. So like clearly he already was technical enough to be he already was technical enough to be he already was technical enough to be able to pull that off. But it did kind able to pull that off. But it did kind able to pull that off. But it did kind of represent like what would each of of represent like what would each of of represent like what would each of these jobs look like if you had like these jobs look like if you had like these jobs look like if you had like imagine you had you know X job in the imagine you had you know X job in the imagine you had you know X job in the economy and right next to that person economy and right next to that person economy and right next to that person was an infinite pool of engineers that was an infinite pool of engineers that was an infinite pool of engineers that could automate whatever that person could automate whatever that person could automate whatever that person wanted and you know what would that job wanted and you know what would that job wanted and you know what would that job look like in the future as a result of look like in the future as a result of look like in the future as a result of that automation that now is possible. that automation that now is possible. that automation that now is possible. Yes, I agree that you'd have to find a Yes, I agree that you'd have to find a Yes, I agree that you'd have to find a way to like you know think through your way to like you know think through your way to like you know think through your job as a system to be able to pull that job as a system to be able to pull that job as a system to be able to pull that off. Maybe the agent gets better and off. Maybe the agent gets better and off. Maybe the agent gets better and better over time at being able to like better over time at being able to like better over time at being able to like nudge you in that direction. But I like nudge you in that direction. But I like nudge you in that direction. But I like it does it does sort of stand a reason it does it does sort of stand a reason it does it does sort of stand a reason that like you will start to, you know, that like you will start to, you know, that like you will start to, you know, try and automate a lot of that that kind try and automate a lot of that that kind try and automate a lot of that that kind of work of like, well, why don't I take of work of like, well, why don't I take of work of like, well, why don't I take like the keywords that are working in like the keywords that are working in like the keywords that are working in this in Google Adwords and then port this in Google Adwords and then port this in Google Adwords and then port them over to Facebook and make sure that them over to Facebook and make sure that them over to Facebook and make sure that those are replicated and then take in those are replicated and then take in those are replicated and then take in the new signal from what's happening in the new signal from what's happening in the new signal from what's happening in the market. the market. the market. >> That's a big leap. Like so one thing >> That's a big leap. Like so one thing >> That's a big leap. Like so one thing first. first. first. >> I almost had you. You were nodding a >> I almost had you. You were nodding a >> I almost had you. You were nodding a little bit and then I sh I said little bit and then I sh I said little bit and then I sh I said something that went too far. something that went too far. something that went too far. >> The anthropic growth person as an >> The anthropic growth person as an >> The anthropic growth person as an example like that's a job that is the example like that's a job that is the example like that's a job that is the rest of yeah I could do that job rest of yeah I could do that job rest of yeah I could do that job is infinite and you've got the best is infinite and you've got the best is infinite and you've got the best >> like when demand is infinite and frankly >> like when demand is infinite and frankly >> like when demand is infinite and frankly supply is infinite. This is not a supply is infinite. This is not a supply is infinite. This is not a difficult job and and so let's difficult job and and so let's difficult job and and so let's >> guy that runs the petrol pup in >> guy that runs the petrol pup in >> guy that runs the petrol pup in Australia right now is amazing. Australia right now is amazing. Australia right now is amazing. >> Right. Right. So like be instead be the >> Right. Right. So like be instead be the >> Right. Right. So like be instead be the $600 PC marketing person and see how you $600 PC marketing person and see how you $600 PC marketing person and see how you can do against the Neo. That's a real can do against the Neo. That's a real can do against the Neo. That's a real job. job. job. >> All right, fine. We need a better we >> All right, fine. We need a better we >> All right, fine. We need a better we need a better uh example. need a better uh example. need a better uh example. >> But there is I mean it is it it is >> But there is I mean it is it it is >> But there is I mean it is it it is really interesting. Like I here let me really interesting. Like I here let me really interesting. Like I here let me do an old example an old person example do an old example an old person example do an old example an old person example like my my cousin MBA elite school like my my cousin MBA elite school like my my cousin MBA elite school joined her first job. She's a little joined her first job. She's a little joined her first job. She's a little older than me. Joined with right on the older than me. Joined with right on the older than me. Joined with right on the cusp of computing. like she actually cusp of computing. like she actually cusp of computing. like she actually didn't use a spreadsheet in in grad didn't use a spreadsheet in in grad didn't use a spreadsheet in in grad school and then they all a spreadsheet school and then they all a spreadsheet school and then they all a spreadsheet showed up but she wasn't a spreadsheet showed up but she wasn't a spreadsheet showed up but she wasn't a spreadsheet person so instead they told her hire as person so instead they told her hire as person so instead they told her hire as many interns as you want and so her many interns as you want and so her many interns as you want and so her first year on the job she like first year on the job she like first year on the job she like supervised like essentially a whole room supervised like essentially a whole room supervised like essentially a whole room of agents. of agents. of agents. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And the the the kids who was me not >> And the the the kids who was me not >> And the the the kids who was me not literally but they were in college came literally but they were in college came literally but they were in college came and just did all the spreadsheeting. and just did all the spreadsheeting. and just did all the spreadsheeting. >> Yeah. But then what happened sort of >> Yeah. But then what happened sort of >> Yeah. But then what happened sort of this over magically over the next couple this over magically over the next couple this over magically over the next couple years was she and her cohort all became years was she and her cohort all became years was she and her cohort all became the spreadsheet people. the spreadsheet people. the spreadsheet people. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then this idea that you being a >> And then this idea that you being a >> And then this idea that you being a manager in a bank or just a two years in manager in a bank or just a two years in manager in a bank or just a two years in meant you had a cadre of people doing meant you had a cadre of people doing meant you had a cadre of people doing spreadsheet. No, the whole abstraction spreadsheet. No, the whole abstraction spreadsheet. No, the whole abstraction layer moved up. And the old job before layer moved up. And the old job before layer moved up. And the old job before those interns was you just sat there those interns was you just sat there those interns was you just sat there with basically calculators and an HP an with basically calculators and an HP an with basically calculators and an HP an HP calculator figuring out the model for HP calculator figuring out the model for HP calculator figuring out the model for some M&A deal or whatever and you only some M&A deal or whatever and you only some M&A deal or whatever and you only got to do like two iterations before you got to do like two iterations before you got to do like two iterations before you had to put put out the the pitch deck or had to put put out the the pitch deck or had to put put out the the pitch deck or just go to the customer or the client or just go to the customer or the client or just go to the customer or the client or whatever and then all of a sudden whatever and then all of a sudden whatever and then all of a sudden they're doing 30 iterations themselves. they're doing 30 iterations themselves. they're doing 30 iterations themselves. But they see and so I think where we are But they see and so I think where we are But they see and so I think where we are with agents is just at this step where with agents is just at this step where with agents is just at this step where you think you need 50 and the you think you need 50 and the you think you need 50 and the abstraction layer is such that we're abstraction layer is such that we're abstraction layer is such that we're dividing up in these really small pieces dividing up in these really small pieces dividing up in these really small pieces with one super smart person coordinating with one super smart person coordinating with one super smart person coordinating them all and and pretty soon that that them all and and pretty soon that that them all and and pretty soon that that whole thing is just gonna they're all whole thing is just gonna they're all whole thing is just gonna they're all going to collapse on each other and going to collapse on each other and going to collapse on each other and there is just going to be like a skill there is just going to be like a skill there is just going to be like a skill set set set >> amount of code call it an agent that is >> amount of code call it an agent that is >> amount of code call it an agent that is like marketingish. Yes. like marketingish. Yes. like marketingish. Yes. >> And you'll be able to ask it marketing >> And you'll be able to ask it marketing >> And you'll be able to ask it marketing stuff. Yeah. And then the next step will stuff. Yeah. And then the next step will stuff. Yeah. And then the next step will be and have it go do things. I'm I'm a be and have it go do things. I'm I'm a be and have it go do things. I'm I'm a little skeptical of the until the the little skeptical of the until the the little skeptical of the until the the whole like non-reproducible, non-random whole like non-reproducible, non-random whole like non-reproducible, non-random element of this AI stuff goes away, the element of this AI stuff goes away, the element of this AI stuff goes away, the doing stuff is going to get very costly doing stuff is going to get very costly doing stuff is going to get very costly and and so then you get into the human and and so then you get into the human and and so then you get into the human in a loop discussion and all of that. in a loop discussion and all of that. in a loop discussion and all of that. But I think we're just we're at that But I think we're just we're at that But I think we're just we're at that exact I feel like when I talk to people exact I feel like when I talk to people exact I feel like when I talk to people trying to do stuff Yeah. that we're trying to do stuff Yeah. that we're trying to do stuff Yeah. that we're right at I'm feel like I'm at right at I'm feel like I'm at right at I'm feel like I'm at Thanksgiving dinner talking to my cousin Thanksgiving dinner talking to my cousin Thanksgiving dinner talking to my cousin six months in her job when when I'm six months in her job when when I'm six months in her job when when I'm using a spreadsheet already and I'm and using a spreadsheet already and I'm and using a spreadsheet already and I'm and I'm like I don't know why this is so I'm like I don't know why this is so I'm like I don't know why this is so hard. You should just use one hard. You should just use one hard. You should just use one >> and then two years later she's doing it. >> and then two years later she's doing it. >> and then two years later she's doing it. >> And and I think this right now you have >> And and I think this right now you have >> And and I think this right now you have to be an absolute you have to be a to be an absolute you have to be a to be an absolute you have to be a rocket scientist and the growth rocket scientist and the growth rocket scientist and the growth marketing person to create 42 agents and marketing person to create 42 agents and marketing person to create 42 agents and spin them all up and do all of this spin them all up and do all of this spin them all up and do all of this stuff. But the rocket science part of it stuff. But the rocket science part of it stuff. But the rocket science part of it just is going to evaporate in very short just is going to evaporate in very short just is going to evaporate in very short order order order >> and then you're talking about wow >> and then you're talking about wow >> and then you're talking about wow there's a giant chunk of domain there's a giant chunk of domain there's a giant chunk of domain expertise that expertise that expertise that >> it goes back to the domain expert. >> it goes back to the domain expert. >> it goes back to the domain expert. >> So I I I actually think something that >> So I I I actually think something that >> So I I I actually think something that you said I'll take the other side of you said I'll take the other side of you said I'll take the other side of which is I think it's very tempting to which is I think it's very tempting to which is I think it's very tempting to be like these agents are going to code be like these agents are going to code be like these agents are going to code and do X. Yeah, and do X. Yeah, and do X. Yeah, >> but I think we're going the opposite >> but I think we're going the opposite >> but I think we're going the opposite way. So I think actually where we way. So I think actually where we way. So I think actually where we started was we'd like take like a piece started was we'd like take like a piece started was we'd like take like a piece of SAS software and we'd add AI. Yeah. of SAS software and we'd add AI. Yeah. of SAS software and we'd add AI. Yeah. >> And then that's like the new kind of >> And then that's like the new kind of >> And then that's like the new kind of like AI enabled. So that's like the like AI enabled. So that's like the like AI enabled. So that's like the extreme version of using code for these extreme version of using code for these extreme version of using code for these types of things. But now what are we types of things. But now what are we types of things. But now what are we actually doing? We're like okay the SAS actually doing? We're like okay the SAS actually doing? We're like okay the SAS software is still SAS software and the software is still SAS software and the software is still SAS software and the agent uses it as a computer because like agent uses it as a computer because like agent uses it as a computer because like it's actually very good at that. So I'd it's actually very good at that. So I'd it's actually very good at that. So I'd say like we started with code say like we started with code say like we started with code >> then we went to the terminal which is >> then we went to the terminal which is >> then we went to the terminal which is actually less code. Yeah. actually less code. Yeah. actually less code. Yeah. >> And now this year is going to be the >> And now this year is going to be the >> And now this year is going to be the year of computer use. Yes. So it's year of computer use. Yes. So it's year of computer use. Yes. So it's almost like they're much more like almost like they're much more like almost like they're much more like humans using computers than them humans using computers than them humans using computers than them generating code. And that feels like generating code. And that feels like generating code. And that feels like very much like this mezzanine step. very much like this mezzanine step. very much like this mezzanine step. Yeah. And I actually come from like the Yeah. And I actually come from like the Yeah. And I actually come from like the generating code type of the world. Like generating code type of the world. Like generating code type of the world. Like I would argue that that's happening I would argue that that's happening I would argue that that's happening less, not more. less, not more. less, not more. >> Yeah. I think um so uh to me whether >> Yeah. I think um so uh to me whether >> Yeah. I think um so uh to me whether it's computer use, API use, or writing it's computer use, API use, or writing it's computer use, API use, or writing code on the fly, uh I I kind of maybe code on the fly, uh I I kind of maybe code on the fly, uh I I kind of maybe erroneously put that all in one blank erroneously put that all in one blank erroneously put that all in one blank category. category. category. >> They're very different. >> They're very different. >> They're very different. >> They're very different. But but but what >> They're very different. But but but what >> They're very different. But but but what we we have an agent uh that that we're we we have an agent uh that that we're we we have an agent uh that that we're working on where you it just makes a working on where you it just makes a working on where you it just makes a determination whether it should use an determination whether it should use an determination whether it should use an existing skill, it should using an existing skill, it should using an existing skill, it should using an existing tool from Box, or it should existing tool from Box, or it should existing tool from Box, or it should write code to solve that problem. And write code to solve that problem. And write code to solve that problem. And its ability to do any one of those three its ability to do any one of those three its ability to do any one of those three at any moment ends up being incredibly at any moment ends up being incredibly at any moment ends up being incredibly useful because sometimes there's just useful because sometimes there's just useful because sometimes there's just some specific operation you want to be some specific operation you want to be some specific operation you want to be able to do where writing code to be able able to do where writing code to be able able to do where writing code to be able to do that operation is just faster and to do that operation is just faster and to do that operation is just faster and we don't have to we don't we can't we don't have to we don't we can't we don't have to we don't we can't possibly you know kind of pre-plan for possibly you know kind of pre-plan for possibly you know kind of pre-plan for every thing that anybody would ever want every thing that anybody would ever want every thing that anybody would ever want to do on their documents. And so the to do on their documents. And so the to do on their documents. And so the fact that the the model is good enough fact that the the model is good enough fact that the the model is good enough to also write code on the fly for that to also write code on the fly for that to also write code on the fly for that use case ends up just being like an use case ends up just being like an use case ends up just being like an amazing property even though maybe 90% amazing property even though maybe 90% amazing property even though maybe 90% of the things that it's going to do of the things that it's going to do of the things that it's going to do should just be using an existing time should just be using an existing time should just be using an existing time predto takes over and over time there's predto takes over and over time there's predto takes over and over time there's like literally like seven apps on her like literally like seven apps on her like literally like seven apps on her iPhone there's seven SAS apps we end up iPhone there's seven SAS apps we end up iPhone there's seven SAS apps we end up like over time these things tend to like over time these things tend to like over time these things tend to consolidate consolidate consolidate >> what but the but the seven apps on the >> what but the but the seven apps on the >> what but the but the seven apps on the iPhone is is a is a issue of humans iPhone is is a is a issue of humans iPhone is is a is a issue of humans don't want to learn these things over don't want to learn these things over don't want to learn these things over and over again and so I as a human I and over again and so I as a human I and over again and so I as a human I don't I can't I don't have the mental don't I can't I don't have the mental don't I can't I don't have the mental bandwidth to learn that many apps but an bandwidth to learn that many apps but an bandwidth to learn that many apps but an agent that is going to use tools and agent that is going to use tools and agent that is going to use tools and APIs and be able to code things doesn't APIs and be able to code things doesn't APIs and be able to code things doesn't have any of the same constraints that we have any of the same constraints that we have any of the same constraints that we have so I I don't know like I I don't have so I I don't know like I I don't have so I I don't know like I I don't mind mind mind >> well you could argue that there's just >> well you could argue that there's just >> well you could argue that there's just so many things to do and you can make so many things to do and you can make so many things to do and you can make interfaces sufficiently general. interfaces sufficiently general. interfaces sufficiently general. >> Yeah, fair. >> Yeah, fair. >> Yeah, fair. >> I Let me I think I like what I like what >> I Let me I think I like what I like what >> I Let me I think I like what I like what you said then because I'm back. We're you said then because I'm back. We're you said then because I'm back. We're back. Okay, back. Okay, back. Okay, >> we're we're we're aligned. We're >> we're we're we're aligned. We're >> we're we're we're aligned. We're aligned. No, but but I think there's aligned. No, but but I think there's aligned. No, but but I think there's something super interesting here which I something super interesting here which I something super interesting here which I do really really like which is that that do really really like which is that that do really really like which is that that where software has evolved, you know, where software has evolved, you know, where software has evolved, you know, like I use SAP all day. I work in like I use SAP all day. I work in like I use SAP all day. I work in finance. I have to go and generate all finance. I have to go and generate all finance. I have to go and generate all these reports and then somebody shows up these reports and then somebody shows up these reports and then somebody shows up and says I want a a report that does and says I want a a report that does and says I want a a report that does this view slice this way and I'm like oh this view slice this way and I'm like oh this view slice this way and I'm like oh god I don't know how to make that right god I don't know how to make that right god I don't know how to make that right and like now let me go wade through the and like now let me go wade through the and like now let me go wade through the SAP help system and try to find it. One SAP help system and try to find it. One SAP help system and try to find it. One thing that that let's just say AI could thing that that let's just say AI could thing that that let's just say AI could be very good at is it actually can be very good at is it actually can be very good at is it actually can navigate that surface area much much navigate that surface area much much navigate that surface area much much better. you know the help is all there better. you know the help is all there better. you know the help is all there and so it's a matter of finding it and so it's a matter of finding it and so it's a matter of finding it mapping language and humans have been a mapping language and humans have been a mapping language and humans have been a bottleneck in tapping the past 25 years bottleneck in tapping the past 25 years bottleneck in tapping the past 25 years of software capabilities I mean like I of software capabilities I mean like I of software capabilities I mean like I spent my life my life with sitting next spent my life my life with sitting next spent my life my life with sitting next to people on airplanes saying how can I to people on airplanes saying how can I to people on airplanes saying how can I make PowerPoint do X make PowerPoint do X make PowerPoint do X >> just go to the ribbon >> just go to the ribbon >> just go to the ribbon >> well and and you know it was because it >> well and and you know it was because it >> well and and you know it was because it it hurt physically hurt to watch it hurt physically hurt to watch it hurt physically hurt to watch somebody suffering with bullets and somebody suffering with bullets and somebody suffering with bullets and numbering in Word or trying to figure numbering in Word or trying to figure numbering in Word or trying to figure out you know like oh let me just make a out you know like oh let me just make a out you know like oh let me just make a two-sided a two axis graph in Excel two-sided a two axis graph in Excel two-sided a two axis graph in Excel which like is rocket science like almost which like is rocket science like almost which like is rocket science like almost no one can do that but yet it's super no one can do that but yet it's super no one can do that but yet it's super common and so people are like have not common and so people are like have not common and so people are like have not and so that impedance mismatch was a and so that impedance mismatch was a and so that impedance mismatch was a human user interface human user interface human user interface >> I totally buy it on the consumption >> I totally buy it on the consumption >> I totally buy it on the consumption layer I totally buy it which is like the layer I totally buy it which is like the layer I totally buy it which is like the the the perfectly fluid like UI or the the perfectly fluid like UI or the the perfectly fluid like UI or consumption layer I just feel the consumption layer I just feel the consumption layer I just feel the backend like the systems of record it'll backend like the systems of record it'll backend like the systems of record it'll probably converge into like some probably converge into like some probably converge into like some database database database >> like some generic set of APIs like that >> like some generic set of APIs like that >> like some generic set of APIs like that they'll connect to and like that seems they'll connect to and like that seems they'll connect to and like that seems seems to be the direction it's going. seems to be the direction it's going. seems to be the direction it's going. >> I agree. I think you got to start >> I agree. I think you got to start >> I agree. I think you got to start >> well like so I spent all weekend like >> well like so I spent all weekend like >> well like so I spent all weekend like implementing my nano cloud bot and when implementing my nano cloud bot and when implementing my nano cloud bot and when you first start out it's like you're you first start out it's like you're you first start out it's like you're building an integration for everything. building an integration for everything. building an integration for everything. The nano cloud is very like like The nano cloud is very like like The nano cloud is very like like OpenCloud has all of the integrations. OpenCloud has all of the integrations. OpenCloud has all of the integrations. NanoCloud has very few of them and so NanoCloud has very few of them and so NanoCloud has very few of them and so you haven't built all of its own tools you haven't built all of its own tools you haven't built all of its own tools >> but after you know two or three days of >> but after you know two or three days of >> but after you know two or three days of these like you know you kind of have the these like you know you kind of have the these like you know you kind of have the tool integrations that you need and you tool integrations that you need and you tool integrations that you need and you know like know like know like >> yeah but back to the I mean we're >> yeah but back to the I mean we're >> yeah but back to the I mean we're talking about personal productivity talking about personal productivity talking about personal productivity probably like you're like organizing probably like you're like organizing probably like you're like organizing your life or something. Well, it's work your life or something. Well, it's work your life or something. Well, it's work productivity. productivity. productivity. >> Okay, fine. Work productivity and then >> Okay, fine. Work productivity and then >> Okay, fine. Work productivity and then an SAP system and like and like and so an SAP system and like and like and so an SAP system and like and like and so so there's like an inf like there's an so there's like an inf like there's an so there's like an inf like there's an infinite amount of complexity when you infinite amount of complexity when you infinite amount of complexity when you get to okay some company that has a get to okay some company that has a get to okay some company that has a global supply chain and they're dealing global supply chain and they're dealing global supply chain and they're dealing with 75 pieces of information across you with 75 pieces of information across you with 75 pieces of information across you know 30 different systems that does know 30 different systems that does know 30 different systems that does require a certain amount of of require a certain amount of of require a certain amount of of horsepower from the agent that is just horsepower from the agent that is just horsepower from the agent that is just we've I mean we just haven't been able we've I mean we just haven't been able we've I mean we just haven't been able to get from from any architecture up to get from from any architecture up to get from from any architecture up until now. But like take but that what until now. But like take but that what until now. But like take but that what you just described is literally what it you just described is literally what it you just described is literally what it has been doing for 50 years and will has been doing for 50 years and will has been doing for 50 years and will continue to do which is you know I have continue to do which is you know I have continue to do which is you know I have a friend who was the CIO of of uh the VA a friend who was the CIO of of uh the VA a friend who was the CIO of of uh the VA >> and and he spent all he spent his time >> and and he spent all he spent his time >> and and he spent all he spent his time on was gluing those 75 VA systems on was gluing those 75 VA systems on was gluing those 75 VA systems together and it's all just integration together and it's all just integration together and it's all just integration redundancy redundancy redundancy >> perfect for integr Yeah. This I totally >> perfect for integr Yeah. This I totally >> perfect for integr Yeah. This I totally agree. Okay, great. agree. Okay, great. agree. Okay, great. >> For integration, these things are the >> For integration, these things are the >> For integration, these things are the best, but but it's integration, right? best, but but it's integration, right? best, but but it's integration, right? It's literally how do I stitch these two It's literally how do I stitch these two It's literally how do I stitch these two systems, systems, systems, >> but it's in but now the thing that I >> but it's in but now the thing that I >> but it's in but now the thing that I think is happening is it's kind of like think is happening is it's kind of like think is happening is it's kind of like integration on demand. integration on demand. integration on demand. >> It's it's my it's my new query in the >> It's it's my it's my new query in the >> It's it's my it's my new query in the system that that the IT team didn't system that that the IT team didn't system that that the IT team didn't pre-wire. Now I need it to happen at pre-wire. Now I need it to happen at pre-wire. Now I need it to happen at runtime. runtime. runtime. >> Uh let me get off my lawn. Okay. Okay. >> Uh let me get off my lawn. Okay. Okay. >> Uh let me get off my lawn. Okay. Okay. So, okay. So, the reason I I just was in So, okay. So, the reason I I just was in So, okay. So, the reason I I just was in a room filled with a bunch of CFOs and a room filled with a bunch of CFOs and a room filled with a bunch of CFOs and CIOS and this they all looked at me when CIOS and this they all looked at me when CIOS and this they all looked at me when I said something along these lines, I said something along these lines, I said something along these lines, although not as optimistic as you can although not as optimistic as you can although not as optimistic as you can imagine, but they just b they realism. imagine, but they just b they realism. imagine, but they just b they realism. No, it it caused like six of them to No, it it caused like six of them to No, it it caused like six of them to come running up afterwards and say, come running up afterwards and say, come running up afterwards and say, "You're insane. You've lost all "You're insane. You've lost all "You're insane. You've lost all credibility with me." Because it's credibility with me." Because it's credibility with me." Because it's >> Wait, wait, what? What specifically that >> Wait, wait, what? What specifically that >> Wait, wait, what? What specifically that the the agents are going to do the the agents are going to do the the agents are going to do integration? integration? integration? >> That this that the integration is a >> That this that the integration is a >> That this that the integration is a problem that will get a lot easier. Yes, problem that will get a lot easier. Yes, problem that will get a lot easier. Yes, >> they were against that. >> they were against that. >> they were against that. >> No, they're No one's against >> No, they're No one's against >> No, they're No one's against practical, practical, practical, >> but their their fear is like unleashing >> but their their fear is like unleashing >> but their their fear is like unleashing not just the agents themselves but not just the agents themselves but not just the agents themselves but humans to do integration because you put humans to do integration because you put humans to do integration because you put people creating new integrations and you people creating new integrations and you people creating new integrations and you just say please break my system of just say please break my system of just say please break my system of record. record. record. >> Oh yeah. And so this idea that you just >> Oh yeah. And so this idea that you just >> Oh yeah. And so this idea that you just create like a new API between you know create like a new API between you know create like a new API between you know system 27 and system 38 system 27 and system 38 system 27 and system 38 >> and and then you're that might be fine >> and and then you're that might be fine >> and and then you're that might be fine for a report because if that person for a report because if that person for a report because if that person wants to be wrong that's their business wants to be wrong that's their business wants to be wrong that's their business but you're not but you're not but you're not >> I think I think we have a readonly >> I think I think we have a readonly >> I think I think we have a readonly version of this for a number of years version of this for a number of years version of this for a number of years before before before >> where N is N is very large >> where N is N is very large >> where N is N is very large >> and and a lot of it's just the >> and and a lot of it's just the >> and and a lot of it's just the consumption layer where the consumer is consumption layer where the consumer is consumption layer where the consumer is a human being it really feels right now a human being it really feels right now a human being it really feels right now a lot of the a stuff is consumption a lot of the a stuff is consumption a lot of the a stuff is consumption >> but uh yeah I mean it's um uh you We >> but uh yeah I mean it's um uh you We >> but uh yeah I mean it's um uh you We actually have so we just rolled out the actually have so we just rolled out the actually have so we just rolled out the official box CLI. Thank you for the official box CLI. Thank you for the official box CLI. Thank you for the liking the tweet on that. liking the tweet on that. liking the tweet on that. >> I I've been I I used it. I have some >> I I've been I I used it. I have some >> I I've been I I used it. I have some feedback. We'll talk about feedback. We'll talk about feedback. We'll talk about >> I'll take I'll take all the feedback. >> I'll take I'll take all the feedback. >> I'll take I'll take all the feedback. But it's a really interesting thing. So But it's a really interesting thing. So But it's a really interesting thing. So we we had these all these debates we we had these all these debates we we had these all these debates internally of like okay you give Claude internally of like okay you give Claude internally of like okay you give Claude code the box CLI and you can now code the box CLI and you can now code the box CLI and you can now interact with your entire box system via interact with your entire box system via interact with your entire box system via natural language and you get the natural language and you get the natural language and you get the horsepower of Opus 46 being the horsepower of Opus 46 being the horsepower of Opus 46 being the orchestrator of doing a bunch of orchestrator of doing a bunch of orchestrator of doing a bunch of operations and it's like it's like you operations and it's like it's like you operations and it's like it's like you know blows your mind. I guess I'll get know blows your mind. I guess I'll get know blows your mind. I guess I'll get some feedback, but it blows your mind in some feedback, but it blows your mind in some feedback, but it blows your mind in some ways because you could just be some ways because you could just be some ways because you could just be like, upload this entire folder from my like, upload this entire folder from my like, upload this entire folder from my desktop into box and it'll work or desktop into box and it'll work or desktop into box and it'll work or process all these documents in this process all these documents in this process all these documents in this folder and it'll work. And um and it's folder and it'll work. And um and it's folder and it'll work. And um and it's amazing. And then we started thinking amazing. And then we started thinking amazing. And then we started thinking through like well let's say you were a through like well let's say you were a through like well let's say you were a company with with you know 5,000 company with with you know 5,000 company with with you know 5,000 employees and everybody had access to employees and everybody had access to employees and everybody had access to some shared repository like you know some shared repository like you know some shared repository like you know engineering documentation and you know engineering documentation and you know engineering documentation and you know marketing assets or whatever and marketing assets or whatever and marketing assets or whatever and everybody had cla everybody had cla everybody had cla um you know running with the CLI. Wow. um you know running with the CLI. Wow. um you know running with the CLI. Wow. We now have some really interesting new We now have some really interesting new We now have some really interesting new challenges which is like like how do you challenges which is like like how do you challenges which is like like how do you coordinate you know possibly the fact coordinate you know possibly the fact coordinate you know possibly the fact that you might be hitting the system that you might be hitting the system that you might be hitting the system >> like you know 10,000 times an hour or >> like you know 10,000 times an hour or >> like you know 10,000 times an hour or something. Not from a like a performance something. Not from a like a performance something. Not from a like a performance standpoint but just like how how do you standpoint but just like how how do you standpoint but just like how how do you make sure that people didn't move like a make sure that people didn't move like a make sure that people didn't move like a file from one thing accidentally from file from one thing accidentally from file from one thing accidentally from one folder to another folder while the one folder to another folder while the one folder to another folder while the other person was trying to do a write other person was trying to do a write other person was trying to do a write operation and somebody else was trying operation and somebody else was trying operation and somebody else was trying to delete something because you have to delete something because you have to delete something because you have these agents running wild. This is this these agents running wild. This is this these agents running wild. This is this is going to be like the new big question is going to be like the new big question is going to be like the new big question that every CFO, CIO, etc. is running that every CFO, CIO, etc. is running that every CFO, CIO, etc. is running around trying to with their hair on around trying to with their hair on around trying to with their hair on fire. fire. fire. >> There's just that's exactly what I ran >> There's just that's exactly what I ran >> There's just that's exactly what I ran into which is I played around with your into which is I played around with your into which is I played around with your example which is create the video example which is create the video example which is create the video example which is create like a a example which is create like a a example which is create like a a marketing plan directory or something marketing plan directory or something marketing plan directory or something and like all of a sudden I'm like in and like all of a sudden I'm like in and like all of a sudden I'm like in some loop creating directories like some loop creating directories like some loop creating directories like >> it's going to go on as long as it can, >> it's going to go on as long as it can, >> it's going to go on as long as it can, >> right? And and I was like I wonder what >> right? And and I was like I wonder what >> right? And and I was like I wonder what the limit is on box for nested the limit is on box for nested the limit is on box for nested directories because I'm about to hit it. directories because I'm about to hit it. directories because I'm about to hit it. >> Uh actually we're gonna find out too. >> Uh actually we're gonna find out too. >> Uh actually we're gonna find out too. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but it it does feel to >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but it it does feel to >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but it it does feel to me that that a like a a lot of the me that that a like a a lot of the me that that a like a a lot of the intuition is to like build a new layer intuition is to like build a new layer intuition is to like build a new layer of controls and whatever. But what's of controls and whatever. But what's of controls and whatever. But what's actually happening on the ground is is actually happening on the ground is is actually happening on the ground is is is is the opposite. So I'll give you an is is the opposite. So I'll give you an is is the opposite. So I'll give you an example. Like when we all picked up a example. Like when we all picked up a example. Like when we all picked up a lot of these personal agents, we would lot of these personal agents, we would lot of these personal agents, we would like give them our API keys. Yeah. We like give them our API keys. Yeah. We like give them our API keys. Yeah. We would give them our email addresses and would give them our email addresses and would give them our email addresses and then they would kind of access those then they would kind of access those then they would kind of access those things and they're like, "Oh, but how things and they're like, "Oh, but how things and they're like, "Oh, but how can I stop it from like whatever?" Like, can I stop it from like whatever?" Like, can I stop it from like whatever?" Like, >> and so what everybody's doing now is you >> and so what everybody's doing now is you >> and so what everybody's doing now is you give it its own phone number. Yep. I give it its own phone number. Yep. I give it its own phone number. Yep. I actually gave my Nano Claw its own actually gave my Nano Claw its own actually gave my Nano Claw its own credit card came in. credit card came in. credit card came in. >> Hopefully just a Visa debit card that >> Hopefully just a Visa debit card that >> Hopefully just a Visa debit card that you bought at CVS. you bought at CVS. you bought at CVS. >> All the money, >> All the money, >> All the money, >> but I have no no but then but then I >> but I have no no but then but then I >> but I have no no but then but then I gave it its own Gmail account which you gave it its own Gmail account which you gave it its own Gmail account which you can log into and then Gmail actually has can log into and then Gmail actually has can log into and then Gmail actually has all of these arback permissions that you all of these arback permissions that you all of these arback permissions that you so you could make an argument that like so you could make an argument that like so you could make an argument that like >> you know we've actually built in a lot >> you know we've actually built in a lot >> you know we've actually built in a lot of these permission systems. You have to of these permission systems. You have to of these permission systems. You have to treat it like a human as a separate treat it like a human as a separate treat it like a human as a separate human and then instead of like building human and then instead of like building human and then instead of like building another off layer another another off layer another another off layer another >> okay now can I instantly take do a take >> okay now can I instantly take do a take >> okay now can I instantly take do a take down of of of this uh element that we're down of of of this uh element that we're down of of of this uh element that we're going to run into going to run into going to run into >> please >> please >> please >> okay so that is fantastic for personal >> okay so that is fantastic for personal >> okay so that is fantastic for personal productivity productivity productivity >> and the question that we're going to run >> and the question that we're going to run >> and the question that we're going to run into is in an enterprise let's say I into is in an enterprise let's say I into is in an enterprise let's say I have let's just make a simple example I have let's just make a simple example I have let's just make a simple example I have a 50 person team of something have a 50 person team of something have a 50 person team of something should everybody als basically will we should everybody als basically will we should everybody als basically will we have a hund will we have a hundred have a hund will we have a hundred have a hund will we have a hundred people now collaborate I I mean people now collaborate I I mean people now collaborate I I mean basically 50 humans and then 50 and then basically 50 humans and then 50 and then basically 50 humans and then 50 and then 50 agents in that same shared space and 50 agents in that same shared space and 50 agents in that same shared space and do I have I obviously have complete do I have I obviously have complete do I have I obviously have complete oversight over my agent but what if my oversight over my agent but what if my oversight over my agent but what if my agent collaborates with somebody else uh agent collaborates with somebody else uh agent collaborates with somebody else uh and and then accidentally gets access to and and then accidentally gets access to and and then accidentally gets access to some resource because they were sharing some resource because they were sharing some resource because they were sharing with that other person and I'm not with that other person and I'm not with that other person and I'm not supposed to have access to that resource supposed to have access to that resource supposed to have access to that resource and now this autonomous sort of stateful and now this autonomous sort of stateful and now this autonomous sort of stateful you know agent is is running around you know agent is is running around you know agent is is running around working on somebody else's information. working on somebody else's information. working on somebody else's information. default end to end argument is you treat default end to end argument is you treat default end to end argument is you treat them like human beings and them like human beings and them like human beings and >> it doesn't work. So you can't fully >> it doesn't work. So you can't fully >> it doesn't work. So you can't fully treat them like humans because here's treat them like humans because here's treat them like humans because here's the thing and with regular humans you the thing and with regular humans you the thing and with regular humans you don't get to look at the Slack channel don't get to look at the Slack channel don't get to look at the Slack channel of the person that that is working with of the person that that is working with of the person that that is working with you or working for you. You don't get to you or working for you. You don't get to you or working for you. You don't get to log in as them. You don't get to oversee log in as them. You don't get to oversee log in as them. You don't get to oversee them. You are they are accountable for them. You are they are accountable for them. You are they are accountable for their own set of execution in the real their own set of execution in the real their own set of execution in the real world. You don't get penalized for what world. You don't get penalized for what world. You don't get penalized for what how they screw up the agent. You have how they screw up the agent. You have how they screw up the agent. You have all the liability of whatever they're all the liability of whatever they're all the liability of whatever they're doing. you do have complete oversight doing. you do have complete oversight doing. you do have complete oversight and you're probably going to need to and you're probably going to need to and you're probably going to need to have that complete oversight. They have have that complete oversight. They have have that complete oversight. They have no right to privacy. So, so there's no right to privacy. So, so there's no right to privacy. So, so there's going to be these some of these going to be these some of these going to be these some of these breakdowns that aren't as clean as just breakdowns that aren't as clean as just breakdowns that aren't as clean as just treat them like a person because I need treat them like a person because I need treat them like a person because I need to be able to kind of I need to be able to be able to kind of I need to be able to be able to kind of I need to be able to give access to something to them, but to give access to something to them, but to give access to something to them, but I also need to be able to like log in as I also need to be able to like log in as I also need to be able to like log in as them at some point and be like, "No, no, them at some point and be like, "No, no, them at some point and be like, "No, no, you [ __ ] up the whole thing and I need you [ __ ] up the whole thing and I need you [ __ ] up the whole thing and I need to undo it all." But if I can log in as to undo it all." But if I can log in as to undo it all." But if I can log in as them, how could they have operated in them, how could they have operated in them, how could they have operated in the real world working with other people the real world working with other people the real world working with other people and keeping anything, you know, and keeping anything, you know, and keeping anything, you know, confidential or secure or whatever? So, confidential or secure or whatever? So, confidential or secure or whatever? So, it really is still an extension of you. it really is still an extension of you. it really is still an extension of you. It's like almost impossible to get It's like almost impossible to get It's like almost impossible to get around them being an extension of you. around them being an extension of you. around them being an extension of you. So, now the thing that we're thinking So, now the thing that we're thinking So, now the thing that we're thinking through that we're not going to be able through that we're not going to be able through that we're not going to be able to do anytime soon. to do anytime soon. to do anytime soon. >> I I I just doesn't logically follow. >> I I I just doesn't logically follow. >> I I I just doesn't logically follow. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, >> maybe. But, for example, um for my >> maybe. But, for example, um for my >> maybe. But, for example, um for my employees, I can log in as them. employees, I can log in as them. employees, I can log in as them. >> You don't though. You don't you don't >> You don't though. You don't you don't >> You don't though. You don't you don't >> I can get access to their email. >> I can get access to their email. >> I can get access to their email. >> Yeah. No, in like in a if you get like >> Yeah. No, in like in a if you get like >> Yeah. No, in like in a if you get like sued. You're not logging in. You're not sued. You're not logging in. You're not sued. You're not logging in. You're not logging in as them on a regular basis logging in as them on a regular basis logging in as them on a regular basis because they sent one email. because they sent one email. because they sent one email. >> Isn't the right operating model with an >> Isn't the right operating model with an >> Isn't the right operating model with an agent the same thing? It's like agent the same thing? It's like agent the same thing? It's like >> the risk is like a thousand times >> the risk is like a thousand times >> the risk is like a thousand times greater. Like these people like they greater. Like these people like they greater. Like these people like they will just leak your information whenever will just leak your information whenever will just leak your information whenever they want. Like they will happily just they want. Like they will happily just they want. Like they will happily just go and send some email to somebody go and send some email to somebody go and send some email to somebody because they got prompted. because they got prompted. because they got prompted. >> You think the terminal state is that >> You think the terminal state is that >> You think the terminal state is that these things are still these sloppy these things are still these sloppy these things are still these sloppy computers and therefore they will always computers and therefore they will always computers and therefore they will always >> I don't like the word sloppy. Um unless >> I don't like the word sloppy. Um unless >> I don't like the word sloppy. Um unless we're saying it very in a colloquial we're saying it very in a colloquial we're saying it very in a colloquial sense. Um but like sense. Um but like sense. Um but like >> they'll they'll never be able to contain >> they'll they'll never be able to contain >> they'll they'll never be able to contain information. They'll never information. They'll never information. They'll never >> um so we're like I think the ability for >> um so we're like I think the ability for >> um so we're like I think the ability for you to keep the something in the context you to keep the something in the context you to keep the something in the context window a secret like as in like you tell window a secret like as in like you tell window a secret like as in like you tell it do not reveal X thing in the context it do not reveal X thing in the context it do not reveal X thing in the context window. I think that's a very hard window. I think that's a very hard window. I think that's a very hard problem to solve. problem to solve. problem to solve. >> Let's so then so then thus if anything >> Let's so then so then thus if anything >> Let's so then so then thus if anything can ever enter that context window can ever enter that context window can ever enter that context window because they have access to a resource because they have access to a resource because they have access to a resource then in theory you should assume it can then in theory you should assume it can then in theory you should assume it can be you know prompt ejected out of the be you know prompt ejected out of the be you know prompt ejected out of the pro of the context window. And I don't pro of the context window. And I don't pro of the context window. And I don't know that we know of a way to solve that know that we know of a way to solve that know that we know of a way to solve that at the moment. Like that's like and so at the moment. Like that's like and so at the moment. Like that's like and so so if I know your new agent's, you know, so if I know your new agent's, you know, so if I know your new agent's, you know, email address and I email it like it's email address and I email it like it's email address and I email it like it's it's an assistant, but like I can I can it's an assistant, but like I can I can it's an assistant, but like I can I can social engineer it 10 times easier than social engineer it 10 times easier than social engineer it 10 times easier than a human, like it'll be hard for you to a human, like it'll be hard for you to a human, like it'll be hard for you to pull off that that agent is now also has pull off that that agent is now also has pull off that that agent is now also has access to your like M&A documents and access to your like M&A documents and access to your like M&A documents and stuff. stuff. stuff. >> But isn't this like literally all of AI >> But isn't this like literally all of AI >> But isn't this like literally all of AI right now? right now? right now? >> Which part? >> Which part? >> Which part? >> I mean, the fact that we've got these >> I mean, the fact that we've got these >> I mean, the fact that we've got these shared systems that we use the shared systems that we use the shared systems that we use the intelligence for that have shared intelligence for that have shared intelligence for that have shared context But what do you mean by it's all context But what do you mean by it's all context But what do you mean by it's all of AI? of AI? of AI? >> Well, I'm just saying like right now >> Well, I'm just saying like right now >> Well, I'm just saying like right now when we use AI internally and agents when we use AI internally and agents when we use AI internally and agents internally, this is exactly how we use internally, this is exactly how we use internally, this is exactly how we use them. them. them. >> But this is why you were they're working >> But this is why you were they're working >> But this is why you were they're working as as you effectively right now and we as as you effectively right now and we as as you effectively right now and we don't yet know how to make them not work don't yet know how to make them not work don't yet know how to make them not work as you. as you. as you. >> Let me offer an example. Let me let me >> Let me offer an example. Let me let me >> Let me offer an example. Let me let me offer an example. offer an example. offer an example. >> We don't and then solving this problem >> We don't and then solving this problem >> We don't and then solving this problem though like like the uh like though like like the uh like though like like the uh like the issue will be will be like you will the issue will be will be like you will the issue will be will be like you will just be able to trick the agent to just be able to trick the agent to just be able to trick the agent to reveal information. So then so then they reveal information. So then so then they reveal information. So then so then they that's why like having them have access that's why like having them have access that's why like having them have access to their own resources where they can to their own resources where they can to their own resources where they can fully make their own decisions is not fully make their own decisions is not fully make their own decisions is not yet something that we've been able to yet something that we've been able to yet something that we've been able to pull off. pull off. pull off. >> But there's a perfect example for >> But there's a perfect example for >> But there's a perfect example for solving your problem which is we already solving your problem which is we already solving your problem which is we already lived through this with open source. lived through this with open source. lived through this with open source. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> The model for open source >> The model for open source >> The model for open source >> was it's all there and you just use it >> was it's all there and you just use it >> was it's all there and you just use it and you pick and choose. And then like and you pick and choose. And then like and you pick and choose. And then like nobody debated it because the world was nobody debated it because the world was nobody debated it because the world was much smaller then and we weren't all on much smaller then and we weren't all on much smaller then and we weren't all on X doing podcasts when this was all X doing podcasts when this was all X doing podcasts when this was all happening. But then quickly everybody happening. But then quickly everybody happening. But then quickly everybody realized all the problems you you were realized all the problems you you were realized all the problems you you were just talking about. Like if you're just talking about. Like if you're just talking about. Like if you're running a big company, you can't have running a big company, you can't have running a big company, you can't have some person just go copy in a bunch of some person just go copy in a bunch of some person just go copy in a bunch of source code from open source into your source code from open source into your source code from open source into your commercial product like that. There was commercial product like that. There was commercial product like that. There was a whole licensing problem, a whole a whole licensing problem, a whole a whole licensing problem, a whole quality a whole bunch of stuff. And so quality a whole bunch of stuff. And so quality a whole bunch of stuff. And so all these norms got developed. The the all these norms got developed. The the all these norms got developed. The the debate that we're happening that's debate that we're happening that's debate that we're happening that's happening right now is just is this happening right now is just is this happening right now is just is this really interesting modern artifact of really interesting modern artifact of really interesting modern artifact of how new technologies develop, which is how new technologies develop, which is how new technologies develop, which is this is all happening in real time. it this is all happening in real time. it this is all happening in real time. it during open source like we met in a during open source like we met in a during open source like we met in a conference room this big and debated how conference room this big and debated how conference room this big and debated how much open source we could use in Windows much open source we could use in Windows much open source we could use in Windows or office right and nobody in the or office right and nobody in the or office right and nobody in the internet knew we were having this debate internet knew we were having this debate internet knew we were having this debate it was a very and it I think it's just it was a very and it I think it's just it was a very and it I think it's just so interesting that not just this the so interesting that not just this the so interesting that not just this the debate about specifics but this whole debate about specifics but this whole debate about specifics but this whole notion of where is this heading is notion of where is this heading is notion of where is this heading is happening in writ large and everybody is happening in writ large and everybody is happening in writ large and everybody is just trying to get to the end state just trying to get to the end state just trying to get to the end state >> like way way way more like in a in a >> like way way way more like in a in a >> like way way way more like in a in a sense more quickly than we can actually sense more quickly than we can actually sense more quickly than we can actually reach the end state. And so what really reach the end state. And so what really reach the end state. And so what really needs to happen is people just need to needs to happen is people just need to needs to happen is people just need to go build. go build. go build. >> We need standards. >> We need standards. >> We need standards. >> What? >> What? >> What? >> We just need some standards. >> We just need some standards. >> We just need some standards. >> I think I think we've got different >> I think I think we've got different >> I think I think we've got different intuitions on the end state. intuitions on the end state. intuitions on the end state. >> No, no, we don't want my intuition, but >> No, no, we don't want my intuition, but >> No, no, we don't want my intuition, but like like like >> one could make an end to end argument >> one could make an end to end argument >> one could make an end to end argument that these things actually converge on that these things actually converge on that these things actually converge on the same type of reliability as a human the same type of reliability as a human the same type of reliability as a human being, which is exactly how we view like being, which is exactly how we view like being, which is exactly how we view like self-driving. And in that case, you use self-driving. And in that case, you use self-driving. And in that case, you use the exact same mechanisms that we use to the exact same mechanisms that we use to the exact same mechanisms that we use to protect with human beings. like you protect with human beings. like you protect with human beings. like you consider insider threat, you consider consider insider threat, you consider consider insider threat, you consider the fact that people can be bought off, the fact that people can be bought off, the fact that people can be bought off, you consider the fact that people make you consider the fact that people make you consider the fact that people make mistakes and you build and that's mistakes and you build and that's mistakes and you build and that's operational processes. So, so one operational processes. So, so one operational processes. So, so one intuition is like that will be the end intuition is like that will be the end intuition is like that will be the end state. state. state. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> There's another intuition. >> There's another intuition. >> There's another intuition. >> Well, the point is like I'm JUST SAYING >> Well, the point is like I'm JUST SAYING >> Well, the point is like I'm JUST SAYING I'M TALKING ABOUT WHERE we're at now. I I'M TALKING ABOUT WHERE we're at now. I I'M TALKING ABOUT WHERE we're at now. I actually I don't know that we disagree actually I don't know that we disagree actually I don't know that we disagree on the end state and and and by the way on the end state and and and by the way on the end state and and and by the way like strategically we're hedging because like strategically we're hedging because like strategically we're hedging because we're going to build we're gonna we're we're going to build we're gonna we're we're going to build we're gonna we're gonna build Asian users and reg and gonna build Asian users and reg and gonna build Asian users and reg and we're like so we're like I love the idea we're like so we're like I love the idea we're like so we're like I love the idea of open claw having a box account and it of open claw having a box account and it of open claw having a box account and it it operates and it's like twice as many it operates and it's like twice as many it operates and it's like twice as many accounts. accounts. accounts. >> Exactly. THIS IS GREAT DOUBLE THE NO I >> Exactly. THIS IS GREAT DOUBLE THE NO I >> Exactly. THIS IS GREAT DOUBLE THE NO I LOVE IT. I'm I'm just saying on the LOVE IT. I'm I'm just saying on the LOVE IT. I'm I'm just saying on the ground right now, we don't yet know how ground right now, we don't yet know how ground right now, we don't yet know how to give it an M&A data room to fully to give it an M&A data room to fully to give it an M&A data room to fully securely be able to securely be able to securely be able to >> But that but it's actually it is harder >> But that but it's actually it is harder >> But that but it's actually it is harder than that though because the the threat than that though because the the threat than that though because the the threat >> he's a skeptic. I'm >> he's a skeptic. I'm >> he's a skeptic. I'm >> the the threat vectors are going to be >> the the threat vectors are going to be >> the the threat vectors are going to be way more sophisticated. So, we do have a way more sophisticated. So, we do have a way more sophisticated. So, we do have a a a cat and a mouse game going on where a a cat and a mouse game going on where a a cat and a mouse game going on where you can't just assume that the agent you can't just assume that the agent you can't just assume that the agent acts like a human does today because acts like a human does today because acts like a human does today because it's going to be the fastest, most it's going to be the fastest, most it's going to be the fastest, most thoughtful, craziest ass human that ever thoughtful, craziest ass human that ever thoughtful, craziest ass human that ever existed trying to actually leak the existed trying to actually leak the existed trying to actually leak the information because it got injected in information because it got injected in information because it got injected in some way. Yeah. And so there part of some way. Yeah. And so there part of some way. Yeah. And so there part of what's going to happen is you're we're what's going to happen is you're we're what's going to happen is you're we're going to go through this phase where going to go through this phase where going to go through this phase where like the enterprise customers are just like the enterprise customers are just like the enterprise customers are just going to like close everything off until going to like close everything off until going to like close everything off until there's some sense of sanity in all of there's some sense of sanity in all of there's some sense of sanity in all of this and then but in the meantime the this and then but in the meantime the this and then but in the meantime the individual and specifically the individual and specifically the individual and specifically the developers have such a big developers have such a big developers have such a big >> are going to and that's going to be the >> are going to and that's going to be the >> are going to and that's going to be the that I think is the most exciting that I think is the most exciting that I think is the most exciting tension that's going to happen is that tension that's going to happen is that tension that's going to happen is that that the enterprises are going to be are that the enterprises are going to be are that the enterprises are going to be are are going to get left behind by these are going to get left behind by these are going to get left behind by these sort of advanced individ individuals sort of advanced individ individuals sort of advanced individ individuals which will then start to look like the which will then start to look like the which will then start to look like the startups and the startups will start to startups and the startups will start to startups and the startups will start to move much much faster than enterprises move much much faster than enterprises move much much faster than enterprises because they just don't have any of because they just don't have any of because they just don't have any of these problems and these problems and these problems and >> no the the and and you know you could >> no the the and and you know you could >> no the the and and you know you could end up with like the agent going rogue end up with like the agent going rogue end up with like the agent going rogue in a startup and doing you had no you in a startup and doing you had no you in a startup and doing you had no you had no employees that go rogue routinely had no employees that go rogue routinely had no employees that go rogue routinely in startups. in startups. in startups. >> Yeah. Well, it'll just be an episode of >> Yeah. Well, it'll just be an episode of >> Yeah. Well, it'll just be an episode of Silicon Valley and so you know big deal. Silicon Valley and so you know big deal. Silicon Valley and so you know big deal. >> I agree with you on like the okay it's >> I agree with you on like the okay it's >> I agree with you on like the okay it's it's people etc. the same risk. I think it's people etc. the same risk. I think it's people etc. the same risk. I think you there's a couple, you know, you there's a couple, you know, you there's a couple, you know, differences though, uh, in the sense differences though, uh, in the sense differences though, uh, in the sense that that I can't really threaten, you that that I can't really threaten, you that that I can't really threaten, you know, the like cloud code that it's just know, the like cloud code that it's just know, the like cloud code that it's just I'm gonna pull the plug on it in the I'm gonna pull the plug on it in the I'm gonna pull the plug on it in the same way that you do have that threat as same way that you do have that threat as same way that you do have that threat as a regular employee is like you at least a regular employee is like you at least a regular employee is like you at least like 95% of people are not, you know, like 95% of people are not, you know, like 95% of people are not, you know, trying to do bad stuff, you know, within trying to do bad stuff, you know, within trying to do bad stuff, you know, within an organization, an organization, an organization, >> but they they they're not trying, but >> but they they they're not trying, but >> but they they they're not trying, but the ability to inadvertently do bad the ability to inadvertently do bad the ability to inadvertently do bad stuff. Yeah. to your point about it stuff. Yeah. to your point about it stuff. Yeah. to your point about it still not having that stuff fixed, still not having that stuff fixed, still not having that stuff fixed, >> I would I would argue that that uh it's >> I would I would argue that that uh it's >> I would I would argue that that uh it's a lot easier to have people not share, a lot easier to have people not share, a lot easier to have people not share, let's say, files with somebody outside let's say, files with somebody outside let's say, files with somebody outside the company in a in a in a wrong way the company in a in a in a wrong way the company in a in a in a wrong way more than it is for an agent right now more than it is for an agent right now more than it is for an agent right now to to have that same set of instructions to to have that same set of instructions to to have that same set of instructions >> and also you have the tools so that you >> and also you have the tools so that you >> and also you have the tools so that you you can basically stop that at a whole you can basically stop that at a whole you can basically stop that at a whole different level of abstraction different level of abstraction different level of abstraction >> which is why you have to build this into >> which is why you have to build this into >> which is why you have to build this into software and but I do think actually if software and but I do think actually if software and but I do think actually if you were to like if you were like put a you were to like if you were like put a you were to like if you were like put a bow around your last point that a lot of bow around your last point that a lot of bow around your last point that a lot of this is actually why the diffusion of AI this is actually why the diffusion of AI this is actually why the diffusion of AI capability is going to take longer than capability is going to take longer than capability is going to take longer than people in Silicon Valley realize because people in Silicon Valley realize because people in Silicon Valley realize because what's happening is like we see startups what's happening is like we see startups what's happening is like we see startups that can start from the ground up that can start from the ground up that can start from the ground up without any of the risks that we're without any of the risks that we're without any of the risks that we're talking about because they have nothing talking about because they have nothing talking about because they have nothing to blow up and and so we look at that as to blow up and and so we look at that as to blow up and and so we look at that as the trajectory that we're on and then the trajectory that we're on and then the trajectory that we're on and then you go to like JP Morgan and you're like you go to like JP Morgan and you're like you go to like JP Morgan and you're like how are you going to set up NanoClaw uh how are you going to set up NanoClaw uh how are you going to set up NanoClaw uh to to be able to to actually like you to to be able to to actually like you to to be able to to actually like you know automate your business anytime soon know automate your business anytime soon know automate your business anytime soon and it's like oh okay there's going to and it's like oh okay there's going to and it's like oh okay there's going to be like a little bit of a gap there. be like a little bit of a gap there. be like a little bit of a gap there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, what do you guys think? Here's I >> Well, what do you guys think? Here's I >> Well, what do you guys think? Here's I think that that opens up a pretty think that that opens up a pretty think that that opens up a pretty interesting problem which is this split interesting problem which is this split interesting problem which is this split between big and small startup and between big and small startup and between big and small startup and enterprise which is just that enterprise which is just that enterprise which is just that >> that the the enterp the current SAS >> that the the enterp the current SAS >> that the the enterp the current SAS vendors who are all struggling in this vendors who are all struggling in this vendors who are all struggling in this SAS apocalypse weirdness that I I don't SAS apocalypse weirdness that I I don't SAS apocalypse weirdness that I I don't really agree with but they are really agree with but they are really agree with but they are struggling with this problem that they struggling with this problem that they struggling with this problem that they they don't really sell the line of they don't really sell the line of they don't really sell the line of business data they actually sell this business data they actually sell this business data they actually sell this intelligence and domain expertise in intelligence and domain expertise in intelligence and domain expertise in this whole system and the agent side of this whole system and the agent side of this whole system and the agent side of things wants to only buy the data now things wants to only buy the data now things wants to only buy the data now >> and they only want to license the data >> and they only want to license the data >> and they only want to license the data and they want to have unlimited access and they want to have unlimited access and they want to have unlimited access to the data but they've actually never to the data but they've actually never to the data but they've actually never really enabled that like that's never really enabled that like that's never really enabled that like that's never been their business and it's been a been their business and it's been a been their business and it's been a long-standing tension point with the long-standing tension point with the long-standing tension point with the likes of Workday and SAP and stuff like likes of Workday and SAP and stuff like likes of Workday and SAP and stuff like how much API access to have how much API access to have how much API access to have >> I mean Salesforce went through three >> I mean Salesforce went through three >> I mean Salesforce went through three different massive platform redesigns you different massive platform redesigns you different massive platform redesigns you know it's I think that that's a know it's I think that that's a know it's I think that that's a particularly interesting problem not for particularly interesting problem not for particularly interesting problem not for the same reason that Wall Street does the same reason that Wall Street does the same reason that Wall Street does Wall Street's all wrong about the Wall Street's all wrong about the Wall Street's all wrong about the economics and the problem and all that economics and the problem and all that economics and the problem and all that stuff. But from a technology stuff. But from a technology stuff. But from a technology perspective, what does system of record perspective, what does system of record perspective, what does system of record mean in in the face of people wanting to mean in in the face of people wanting to mean in in the face of people wanting to access the data when the data for access the data when the data for access the data when the data for training or for training or for training or for >> well they they are talking about for >> well they they are talking about for >> well they they are talking about for I think of it as executing the I think of it as executing the I think of it as executing the day-to-day operations. Their concern is day-to-day operations. Their concern is day-to-day operations. Their concern is that somebody that they want to do the that somebody that they want to do the that somebody that they want to do the training layer on on your data like I'm training layer on on your data like I'm training layer on on your data like I'm a big customer. They want to do the my a big customer. They want to do the my a big customer. They want to do the my vendor wants to build a training build. vendor wants to build a training build. vendor wants to build a training build. >> Actually, even even if you don't even >> Actually, even even if you don't even >> Actually, even even if you don't even get into training, they're concerned get into training, they're concerned get into training, they're concerned because because like monetizing, you because because like monetizing, you because because like monetizing, you know, uh you know, sending a little bit know, uh you know, sending a little bit know, uh you know, sending a little bit over the internet versus like you're in over the internet versus like you're in over the internet versus like you're in my UI, it's a very different level of my UI, it's a very different level of my UI, it's a very different level of monetization initially that you monetization initially that you monetization initially that you >> that's sort of that monetization part is >> that's sort of that monetization part is >> that's sort of that monetization part is the Wall Street point. I because I think the Wall Street point. I because I think the Wall Street point. I because I think like look there is so much domain stuff like look there is so much domain stuff like look there is so much domain stuff in in an SAP just to pick an example, in in an SAP just to pick an example, in in an SAP just to pick an example, not to pick on them or anything, but not to pick on them or anything, but not to pick on them or anything, but like they're not going anywhere. like like they're not going anywhere. like like they're not going anywhere. like it's ridiculous. It's just absurd to it's ridiculous. It's just absurd to it's ridiculous. It's just absurd to think you're gonna vibe code your way to think you're gonna vibe code your way to think you're gonna vibe code your way to like SAP. But like SAP. But like SAP. But >> also all of that those all of that >> also all of that those all of that >> also all of that those all of that domain knowledge it's not so it's not domain knowledge it's not so it's not domain knowledge it's not so it's not just represented in some well just represented in some well just represented in some well orchestrated data layer as much as they orchestrated data layer as much as they orchestrated data layer as much as they tried. tried. tried. >> There's like a whole bunch in the in the >> There's like a whole bunch in the in the >> There's like a whole bunch in the in the UI. There's a whole bunch in middle UI. There's a whole bunch in middle UI. There's a whole bunch in middle tiers. There's a whole bunch in just how tiers. There's a whole bunch in just how tiers. There's a whole bunch in just how you use it. And so I I'm really unsure you use it. And so I I'm really unsure you use it. And so I I'm really unsure how this thing evolves because SAP isn't how this thing evolves because SAP isn't how this thing evolves because SAP isn't going anywhere. So then that's going to going anywhere. So then that's going to going anywhere. So then that's going to slow the diffusion of AI on that slow the diffusion of AI on that slow the diffusion of AI on that particular data source independent of particular data source independent of particular data source independent of whether or not it's agentified AI that's whether or not it's agentified AI that's whether or not it's agentified AI that's doing stuff or just read only reporting doing stuff or just read only reporting doing stuff or just read only reporting on stuff. So where do you come down on on stuff. So where do you come down on on stuff. So where do you come down on where do you think that's going to go? where do you think that's going to go? where do you think that's going to go? >> I'm afraid of saying something that >> I'm afraid of saying something that >> I'm afraid of saying something that okay okay okay >> that's otherwise you're not going to get >> that's otherwise you're not going to get >> that's otherwise you're not going to get invited back. Say something good. Uh I'm invited back. Say something good. Uh I'm invited back. Say something good. Uh I'm I'm I think I've I think I'm I've drunk I'm I think I've I think I'm I've drunk I'm I think I've I think I'm I've drunk the Kool-Aid on uh on uh build something the Kool-Aid on uh on uh build something the Kool-Aid on uh on uh build something agents want. Um so this kind of the Paul agents want. Um so this kind of the Paul agents want. Um so this kind of the Paul Graham term kind of like emerged on you Graham term kind of like emerged on you Graham term kind of like emerged on you know the past year on this topic which know the past year on this topic which know the past year on this topic which is just like like event and I I think we is just like like event and I I think we is just like like event and I I think we would actually then I fully agree on would actually then I fully agree on would actually then I fully agree on this which is at some point at you do this which is at some point at you do this which is at some point at you do enough sort of iterations of this and at enough sort of iterations of this and at enough sort of iterations of this and at some point the agent is largely in some point the agent is largely in some point the agent is largely in charge of what tools it wants to charge of what tools it wants to charge of what tools it wants to implement and use and and whatnot. And implement and use and and whatnot. And implement and use and and whatnot. And yes, it can't. The agent is not going to yes, it can't. The agent is not going to yes, it can't. The agent is not going to be able to change out an enterprise be able to change out an enterprise be able to change out an enterprise system, but like again, enough system, but like again, enough system, but like again, enough generations later, the agent might might generations later, the agent might might generations later, the agent might might just run into so many walls with your just run into so many walls with your just run into so many walls with your software that it's just going to say, software that it's just going to say, software that it's just going to say, "You need to finally rip out your legacy "You need to finally rip out your legacy "You need to finally rip out your legacy HR system or I'm not going to be able to HR system or I'm not going to be able to HR system or I'm not going to be able to automate this workflow for you." Yeah. automate this workflow for you." Yeah. automate this workflow for you." Yeah. So, I do think you have this really So, I do think you have this really So, I do think you have this really interesting, you know, dynamic, which is interesting, you know, dynamic, which is interesting, you know, dynamic, which is back to this whole whole point of back to this whole whole point of back to this whole whole point of imagine that there's a hundred or a imagine that there's a hundred or a imagine that there's a hundred or a thousand times more agent volume on thousand times more agent volume on thousand times more agent volume on software than people. You do that enough software than people. You do that enough software than people. You do that enough times and eventually the software stack times and eventually the software stack times and eventually the software stack that agents talk to has to be built for that agents talk to has to be built for that agents talk to has to be built for them and and maybe there'll be a couple them and and maybe there'll be a couple them and and maybe there'll be a couple holdouts maybe maybe a couple ERP holdouts maybe maybe a couple ERP holdouts maybe maybe a couple ERP systems are like the final hold outs systems are like the final hold outs systems are like the final hold outs that don't do that but everything else that don't do that but everything else that don't do that but everything else you basically like your business will you basically like your business will you basically like your business will will be your business performance will will be your business performance will will be your business performance will correlate to how well your agents can correlate to how well your agents can correlate to how well your agents can get access to the information they need get access to the information they need get access to the information they need to do their work and so thus your to do their work and so thus your to do their work and so thus your enterprise IT stack has to be set up in enterprise IT stack has to be set up in enterprise IT stack has to be set up in such a way to support that and so agents such a way to support that and so agents such a way to support that and so agents are kind of in charge And because are kind of in charge And because are kind of in charge And because basically your software has to support basically your software has to support basically your software has to support those agents being effective. And then those agents being effective. And then those agents being effective. And then that's going to mean everybody that that's going to mean everybody that that's going to mean everybody that built a SAS business or a software built a SAS business or a software built a SAS business or a software business is like the game is can you business is like the game is can you business is like the game is can you build really really high quality APIs. build really really high quality APIs. build really really high quality APIs. Can you have a way of monetizing that? Can you have a way of monetizing that? Can you have a way of monetizing that? You know, do you have a way of handling You know, do you have a way of handling You know, do you have a way of handling the identities and and all of the access the identities and and all of the access the identities and and all of the access controls for agents and like like that controls for agents and like like that controls for agents and like like that becomes the new problem you have to becomes the new problem you have to becomes the new problem you have to solve if you're building a software solve if you're building a software solve if you're building a software company. Um, and um, uh, so yeah, like company. Um, and um, uh, so yeah, like company. Um, and um, uh, so yeah, like and then and then how you monetize it, and then and then how you monetize it, and then and then how you monetize it, like do do you monetize it, like does like do do you monetize it, like does like do do you monetize it, like does workday charge a penny for every HR workday charge a penny for every HR workday charge a penny for every HR record it pulls? Like we'll figure that record it pulls? Like we'll figure that record it pulls? Like we'll figure that out. I do think that in some businesses out. I do think that in some businesses out. I do think that in some businesses it could mean less revenue and then in it could mean less revenue and then in it could mean less revenue and then in other businesses it can mean a lot more other businesses it can mean a lot more other businesses it can mean a lot more revenue. Like the thing we get excited revenue. Like the thing we get excited revenue. Like the thing we get excited by is like every agent really loves by is like every agent really loves by is like every agent really loves working with files. So there'll probably working with files. So there'll probably working with files. So there'll probably be more files in the future than than be more files in the future than than be more files in the future than than there was going to be before. And so, there was going to be before. And so, there was going to be before. And so, you know, can we build a platform that you know, can we build a platform that you know, can we build a platform that like makes it really easy for agents to like makes it really easy for agents to like makes it really easy for agents to work with that data? you know, we we work with that data? you know, we we work with that data? you know, we we we're betting that that's actually a we're betting that that's actually a we're betting that that's actually a really optimistic outcome for for you really optimistic outcome for for you really optimistic outcome for for you know, our our kind of business model. know, our our kind of business model. know, our our kind of business model. There might be some business models that There might be some business models that There might be some business models that are like more constrained because like are like more constrained because like are like more constrained because like the agent is doing more of the value the agent is doing more of the value the agent is doing more of the value than than the software is at in that than than the software is at in that than than the software is at in that kind of future scenario and then kind of future scenario and then kind of future scenario and then there'll be everything in between. there'll be everything in between. there'll be everything in between. >> Can I can I quibble with one thing? I >> Can I can I quibble with one thing? I >> Can I can I quibble with one thing? I >> You're going to quibble with that? I >> You're going to quibble with that? I >> You're going to quibble with that? I thought that was like so not thought that was like so not thought that was like so not controversial. controversial. controversial. >> No, no. I I I generally >> No, no. I I I generally >> No, no. I I I generally >> We're here to quibble. >> We're here to quibble. >> We're here to quibble. >> No, no, no, no. But there's one thing I >> No, no, no, no. But there's one thing I >> No, no, no, no. But there's one thing I think like Paul Graham and many actually think like Paul Graham and many actually think like Paul Graham and many actually gloss over, which is they focus on the gloss over, which is they focus on the gloss over, which is they focus on the interface. They'll say things like you interface. They'll say things like you interface. They'll say things like you build something for the agents build something for the agents build something for the agents >> and I actually think that's exactly >> and I actually think that's exactly >> and I actually think that's exactly wrong. Okay. wrong. Okay. wrong. Okay. >> In the sense that >> In the sense that >> In the sense that >> and to be fair to Paul Graham uh he >> and to be fair to Paul Graham uh he >> and to be fair to Paul Graham uh he didn't he had didn't he had didn't he had >> extrapolated >> extrapolated >> extrapolated I have brought I brought Paul Graham I have brought I brought Paul Graham I have brought I brought Paul Graham into this is great. So okay let me let into this is great. So okay let me let into this is great. So okay let me let me talk about something people in the me talk about something people in the me talk about something people in the abstract say things like now you're abstract say things like now you're abstract say things like now you're marketing to agents the most important marketing to agents the most important marketing to agents the most important thing is to being like whatever you're thing is to being like whatever you're thing is to being like whatever you're like an API you've got a good IDL. I like an API you've got a good IDL. I like an API you've got a good IDL. I actually think that's almost exactly actually think that's almost exactly actually think that's almost exactly wrong which is wow that's wrong which is wow that's wrong which is wow that's >> this is breaking podcast news. That's >> this is breaking podcast news. That's >> this is breaking podcast news. That's the one thing agents are really good at. the one thing agents are really good at. the one thing agents are really good at. >> Oh, okay. Is finding their way through >> Oh, okay. Is finding their way through >> Oh, okay. Is finding their way through >> at the end of the day, like it's the >> at the end of the day, like it's the >> at the end of the day, like it's the semantics that end up mattering a lot semantics that end up mattering a lot semantics that end up mattering a lot more, right? And so, like the agents in more, right? And so, like the agents in more, right? And so, like the agents in in in my recollection or in in my in in my recollection or in in my in in my recollection or in in my experience are very very good at picking experience are very very good at picking experience are very very good at picking the right the right the right >> backend for whatever they're doing. So, >> backend for whatever they're doing. So, >> backend for whatever they're doing. So, they don't they're not like, oh, like they don't they're not like, oh, like they don't they're not like, oh, like the interface for this is very good, the the interface for this is very good, the the interface for this is very good, the document, it's none of that. They're document, it's none of that. They're document, it's none of that. They're like they're like the cost parameters of like they're like the cost parameters of like they're like the cost parameters of this the durability of that like and so this the durability of that like and so this the durability of that like and so like they actually have the collective like they actually have the collective like they actually have the collective wisdom of our experience using these wisdom of our experience using these wisdom of our experience using these platforms like let's take cloud platforms like let's take cloud platforms like let's take cloud platforms there's a bunch of cloud platforms there's a bunch of cloud platforms there's a bunch of cloud platforms out there y and whenever I ask platforms out there y and whenever I ask platforms out there y and whenever I ask an agent to choose a platform it's an agent to choose a platform it's an agent to choose a platform it's actually using meaningful stuff not actually using meaningful stuff not actually using meaningful stuff not interface stuff so I think as an interface stuff so I think as an interface stuff so I think as an industry we're so focused on these industry we're so focused on these industry we're so focused on these interfaces like oh you need to like interfaces like oh you need to like interfaces like oh you need to like market to agents this and that when market to agents this and that when market to agents this and that when really I think that we're going to be really I think that we're going to be really I think that we're going to be pushed to actually build better systems pushed to actually build better systems pushed to actually build better systems and that's what's going to be chosen. and that's what's going to be chosen. and that's what's going to be chosen. Okay. Actually, so then there's probably Okay. Actually, so then there's probably Okay. Actually, so then there's probably no quibbling. I think we're actually no quibbling. I think we're actually no quibbling. I think we're actually fully aligned. I'm sorry to ruin the fully aligned. I'm sorry to ruin the fully aligned. I'm sorry to ruin the quibble thing. Um I I I don't treat this quibble thing. Um I I I don't treat this quibble thing. Um I I I don't treat this as like a, you know, kind of a as like a, you know, kind of a as like a, you know, kind of a marketing, you know, esque thing. I I marketing, you know, esque thing. I I marketing, you know, esque thing. I I more mean like if your tool is closed more mean like if your tool is closed more mean like if your tool is closed off to the agent, the agent eventually off to the agent, the agent eventually off to the agent, the agent eventually will find a better tool for that company will find a better tool for that company will find a better tool for that company to go use. And so and so what will to go use. And so and so what will to go use. And so and so what will happen is is it used to be that you happen is is it used to be that you happen is is it used to be that you would go to like Gartner to be like, would go to like Gartner to be like, would go to like Gartner to be like, tell me what to do. Tell me what system tell me what to do. Tell me what system tell me what to do. Tell me what system to use or whatot. at at some point with to use or whatot. at at some point with to use or whatot. at at some point with enough iterations the the agent is going enough iterations the the agent is going enough iterations the the agent is going to say you should probably use this kind to say you should probably use this kind to say you should probably use this kind of database for this type of operation of database for this type of operation of database for this type of operation and if you're not in if you're not in and if you're not in if you're not in and if you're not in if you're not in there then you're it's your DOA there then you're it's your DOA there then you're it's your DOA >> and and I I think we should actually be >> and and I I think we should actually be >> and and I I think we should actually be celebrating this because agents are celebrating this because agents are celebrating this because agents are actually pretty smart at choosing the actually pretty smart at choosing the actually pretty smart at choosing the right technology in the past I really right technology in the past I really right technology in the past I really think it was a lot of the other things think it was a lot of the other things think it was a lot of the other things that that caused people to buy it which that that caused people to buy it which that that caused people to buy it which is like is like is like >> but but don't worry we will in Silicon >> but but don't worry we will in Silicon >> but but don't worry we will in Silicon Valley we will ruin the meritocracy of Valley we will ruin the meritocracy of Valley we will ruin the meritocracy of this very quickly because you'll just this very quickly because you'll just this very quickly because you'll just like like I'm going to outspend like like I'm going to outspend like like I'm going to outspend >> well the agent they'll bring an API to >> well the agent they'll bring an API to >> well the agent they'll bring an API to incent the agent, but that you know incent the agent, but that you know incent the agent, but that you know there's a the marketing the marketing there's a the marketing the marketing there's a the marketing the marketing agent at workday the marketing agent at agent at workday the marketing agent at agent at workday the marketing agent at workday will have the ability to workday will have the ability to workday will have the ability to purchase the recommendations. purchase the recommendations. purchase the recommendations. >> Find a way to replicate steak dinners >> Find a way to replicate steak dinners >> Find a way to replicate steak dinners for agents. for agents. for agents. >> Yeah. Like what is the >> Yeah. Like what is the >> Yeah. Like what is the >> there is a but here's a real here's a >> there is a but here's a real here's a >> there is a but here's a real here's a thing that again that that happened with thing that again that that happened with thing that again that that happened with the web sort of internally like internal the web sort of internally like internal the web sort of internally like internal like just pick internal sites like every like just pick internal sites like every like just pick internal sites like every company had fileshares with like the company had fileshares with like the company had fileshares with like the best documentation the best slideshows best documentation the best slideshows best documentation the best slideshows the best financial models for any the best financial models for any the best financial models for any department or working area and people department or working area and people department or working area and people sort of got familiar with that and then sort of got familiar with that and then sort of got familiar with that and then when they didn't find the one they when they didn't find the one they when they didn't find the one they wanted they created a new one and many wanted they created a new one and many wanted they created a new one and many organizations sort of operated like that organizations sort of operated like that organizations sort of operated like that was essentially a free market in fact was essentially a free market in fact was essentially a free market in fact Because before the world of box, like it Because before the world of box, like it Because before the world of box, like it didn't if it was in a file, they just didn't if it was in a file, they just didn't if it was in a file, they just didn't care, right? They only cared didn't care, right? They only cared didn't care, right? They only cared about if it was in SQL. about if it was in SQL. about if it was in SQL. >> And so one of the risks with the model >> And so one of the risks with the model >> And so one of the risks with the model you're describing is that the agents you're describing is that the agents you're describing is that the agents themselves will spin up what becomes themselves will spin up what becomes themselves will spin up what becomes like a de facto new system of record. like a de facto new system of record. like a de facto new system of record. >> Oh, they're going to fragment the heck >> Oh, they're going to fragment the heck >> Oh, they're going to fragment the heck out of out of out of >> in the in what you the IT people think >> in the in what you the IT people think >> in the in what you the IT people think of as some middleware enduser BS area. of as some middleware enduser BS area. of as some middleware enduser BS area. And and I I think that that is a is a And and I I think that that is a is a And and I I think that that is a is a real risk is is that like in a sense real risk is is that like in a sense real risk is is that like in a sense like the the the the macros end up like the the the the macros end up like the the the the macros end up running the the corporation. And so I running the the corporation. And so I running the the corporation. And so I think that they've seen this movie and think that they've seen this movie and think that they've seen this movie and they've seen what happens when you let they've seen what happens when you let they've seen what happens when you let marketing just go buy a website on the marketing just go buy a website on the marketing just go buy a website on the internet to do an event and then it's internet to do an event and then it's internet to do an event and then it's like a huge security vulnerability and like a huge security vulnerability and like a huge security vulnerability and the mailing list is leaked and the whole the mailing list is leaked and the whole the mailing list is leaked and the whole company gets sued and all. And so I company gets sued and all. And so I company gets sued and all. And so I think there's a lot more real world think there's a lot more real world think there's a lot more real world tension in this dynamic than than we tension in this dynamic than than we tension in this dynamic than than we just let on. Yeah. But I also think it's just let on. Yeah. But I also think it's just let on. Yeah. But I also think it's one of these ones where you you you know one of these ones where you you you know one of these ones where you you you know there organizations are going to run at there organizations are going to run at there organizations are going to run at different paces different paces different paces >> and JP Morgan is going to be the slowest >> and JP Morgan is going to be the slowest >> and JP Morgan is going to be the slowest at at doing this and the startups are at at doing this and the startups are at at doing this and the startups are going to be the fastest but the the going to be the fastest but the the going to be the fastest but the the delta is huge but even the startup one delta is huge but even the startup one delta is huge but even the startup one is a little far off because even is a little far off because even is a little far off because even startups do need some systems of record startups do need some systems of record startups do need some systems of record at some point and and they are going to at some point and and they are going to at some point and and they are going to all start with some SAS and they're not all start with some SAS and they're not all start with some SAS and they're not going to replace it very quickly. So I going to replace it very quickly. So I going to replace it very quickly. So I think it's a little bit trickier. So it think it's a little bit trickier. So it think it's a little bit trickier. So it feels like there's like there's two very feels like there's like there's two very feels like there's like there's two very competing viewpoints on on this one. And competing viewpoints on on this one. And competing viewpoints on on this one. And like Elon said it was like okay we're like Elon said it was like okay we're like Elon said it was like okay we're going to like issue a prompt and it's going to like issue a prompt and it's going to like issue a prompt and it's going to like spit out machine code and going to like spit out machine code and going to like spit out machine code and that's basically the collapsing of that's basically the collapsing of that's basically the collapsing of layers view like whatever existing layers view like whatever existing layers view like whatever existing interfaces and layers that we've created interfaces and layers that we've created interfaces and layers that we've created in the past are all going to go away and in the past are all going to go away and in the past are all going to go away and it's literally like prompt to machine it's literally like prompt to machine it's literally like prompt to machine code. The other argument like the code. The other argument like the code. The other argument like the history of systems is layers never go history of systems is layers never go history of systems is layers never go away. they just get layered, right? And away. they just get layered, right? And away. they just get layered, right? And because a lot of the layers are actually because a lot of the layers are actually because a lot of the layers are actually more of like organizational boundaries more of like organizational boundaries more of like organizational boundaries or like state boundaries or regular or like state boundaries or regular or like state boundaries or regular >> compatibility, they're just they stay >> compatibility, they're just they stay >> compatibility, they're just they stay for compatibility, for compatibility, for compatibility, >> right? So, so the the other argument is >> right? So, so the the other argument is >> right? So, so the the other argument is is like we've actually evolved these is like we've actually evolved these is like we've actually evolved these layers very specifically and uh because layers very specifically and uh because layers very specifically and uh because of like more human and organizational of like more human and organizational of like more human and organizational needs and they're not going to change needs and they're not going to change needs and they're not going to change and the agents are going to go ahead and and the agents are going to go ahead and and the agents are going to go ahead and map to those. And I I tend to be in that map to those. And I I tend to be in that map to those. And I I tend to be in that latter camp like I don't think that latter camp like I don't think that latter camp like I don't think that we're I think like systems are going to we're I think like systems are going to we're I think like systems are going to continue to be used in fairly similar continue to be used in fairly similar continue to be used in fairly similar ways. Maybe there's more agents using ways. Maybe there's more agents using ways. Maybe there's more agents using them, but I don't think they're going to them, but I don't think they're going to them, but I don't think they're going to evolve as much. evolve as much. evolve as much. >> Elon might be back in the like anthropic >> Elon might be back in the like anthropic >> Elon might be back in the like anthropic category of the anthropic growth category of the anthropic growth category of the anthropic growth marketer, which which is um like he he marketer, which which is um like he he marketer, which which is um like he he like, you know, over the years when you like, you know, over the years when you like, you know, over the years when you kind of like study the various IT, you kind of like study the various IT, you kind of like study the various IT, you know, departments of of his companies know, departments of of his companies know, departments of of his companies like they are the most I mean he could like they are the most I mean he could like they are the most I mean he could do that. do that. do that. >> He can do it. He's the most homegrown >> He can do it. He's the most homegrown >> He can do it. He's the most homegrown like this is first. Elon AI would do like this is first. Elon AI would do like this is first. Elon AI would do that. AI, that. AI, that. AI, >> but also it's >> but also it's >> but also it's >> and then and then from your mortals >> and then and then from your mortals >> and then and then from your mortals you're like, "Yeah, we kind of just want you're like, "Yeah, we kind of just want you're like, "Yeah, we kind of just want a CRM system that like kind of works the a CRM system that like kind of works the a CRM system that like kind of works the same way every time." same way every time." same way every time." >> I mean, this is not this is not it also >> I mean, this is not this is not it also >> I mean, this is not this is not it also hasn't been been not tried before. Like hasn't been been not tried before. Like hasn't been been not tried before. Like you if you were to look at an ERP system you if you were to look at an ERP system you if you were to look at an ERP system from first principles you know well in from first principles you know well in from first principles you know well in 1970 whatever when SAP started there 1970 whatever when SAP started there 1970 whatever when SAP started there were a bunch of different assumptions were a bunch of different assumptions were a bunch of different assumptions and today you would start from a and today you would start from a and today you would start from a different set of assumptions about different set of assumptions about different set of assumptions about what's important and you would architect what's important and you would architect what's important and you would architect a thing completely differently but then a thing completely differently but then a thing completely differently but then it would still only last like 10 years it would still only last like 10 years it would still only last like 10 years until you thought wow that was a broken until you thought wow that was a broken until you thought wow that was a broken decision and and I and so I think that decision and and I and so I think that decision and and I and so I think that >> that there's intentionality in layers >> that there's intentionality in layers >> that there's intentionality in layers but you but you but you >> you but there's also this first >> you but there's also this first >> you but there's also this first principles thing principles thing principles thing >> and you you know there's that always >> and you you know there's that always >> and you you know there's that always will exist because the decisions you can will exist because the decisions you can will exist because the decisions you can make at first principles at any given make at first principles at any given make at first principles at any given time mandate a whole bunch of different time mandate a whole bunch of different time mandate a whole bunch of different stuff. And so even if you don't go with stuff. And so even if you don't go with stuff. And so even if you don't go with LAR, which made total sense 10 years LAR, which made total sense 10 years LAR, which made total sense 10 years ago, you still need 10 or 15 years to ago, you still need 10 or 15 years to ago, you still need 10 or 15 years to get to where LAR get to where LAR get to where LAR >> not having LAR worked. And then now >> not having LAR worked. And then now >> not having LAR worked. And then now there's going to be a whole bunch of there's going to be a whole bunch of there's going to be a whole bunch of other things that you're like, "Wow, we other things that you're like, "Wow, we other things that you're like, "Wow, we could have done that completely could have done that completely could have done that completely different." And so I feel like this is different." And so I feel like this is different." And so I feel like this is again like this discussion about trying again like this discussion about trying again like this discussion about trying to race to an end point. Yeah. But let's to race to an end point. Yeah. But let's to race to an end point. Yeah. But let's see a first example of what you see a first example of what you see a first example of what you described happening and and I think that described happening and and I think that described happening and and I think that that's going to be the real tell because that's going to be the real tell because that's going to be the real tell because I think that there were just companies I think that there were just companies I think that there were just companies will figure all this out and I think will figure all this out and I think will figure all this out and I think that they will just fall back on layers that they will just fall back on layers that they will just fall back on layers and architectural models because it's and architectural models because it's and architectural models because it's the only way the only way the only way >> we know how to think about it for >> we know how to think about it for >> we know how to think about it for policy. We know how to think about for policy. We know how to think about for policy. We know how to think about for security. We know how to think about security. We know how to think about security. We know how to think about >> but it's also the only way to build a >> but it's also the only way to build a >> but it's also the only way to build a system. system. system. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Otherw otherwise you're just building an >> Otherw otherwise you're just building an >> Otherw otherwise you're just building an app. And if you're building an app to do app. And if you're building an app to do app. And if you're building an app to do one thing, we don't need all of this. one thing, we don't need all of this. one thing, we don't need all of this. Like there's a whole different way to do Like there's a whole different way to do Like there's a whole different way to do it. the the uh the thing that I'm pretty it. the the uh the thing that I'm pretty it. the the uh the thing that I'm pretty fascinated by is uh and I don't even fascinated by is uh and I don't even fascinated by is uh and I don't even have any amazing like data points or have any amazing like data points or have any amazing like data points or anecdotes but the the at least the anecdotes but the the at least the anecdotes but the the at least the notion of these sort of companies that notion of these sort of companies that notion of these sort of companies that are emerging in this in these kind of are emerging in this in these kind of are emerging in this in these kind of services categories from the ground up services categories from the ground up services categories from the ground up from the pure first principles approach from the pure first principles approach from the pure first principles approach which is like okay well if I could start which is like okay well if I could start which is like okay well if I could start a marketing agency or consultant you a marketing agency or consultant you a marketing agency or consultant you know engineering consulting company or I know engineering consulting company or I know engineering consulting company or I don't know maybe somebody's doing this don't know maybe somebody's doing this don't know maybe somebody's doing this for law firms for law firms for law firms >> construction work or anything yeah like >> construction work or anything yeah like >> construction work or anything yeah like >> well maybe construction >> well maybe construction >> well maybe construction >> design construction design architect >> design construction design architect >> design construction design architect construction Exactly. Architecture, construction Exactly. Architecture, construction Exactly. Architecture, design, anything that would be like a design, anything that would be like a design, anything that would be like a knowledge worker kind of services knowledge worker kind of services knowledge worker kind of services company because you could kind of build company because you could kind of build company because you could kind of build your company pretty differently if you your company pretty differently if you your company pretty differently if you had no constraints of I have no had no constraints of I have no had no constraints of I have no information barriers and and boundaries information barriers and and boundaries information barriers and and boundaries of what people should have access to. I of what people should have access to. I of what people should have access to. I can give the agent just all the context can give the agent just all the context can give the agent just all the context it needs to do its work. I can write it needs to do its work. I can write it needs to do its work. I can write software on the fly for particular software on the fly for particular software on the fly for particular things like like I do think that will be things like like I do think that will be things like like I do think that will be relatively disruptive, you know, for relatively disruptive, you know, for relatively disruptive, you know, for some time until the the bigger some time until the the bigger some time until the the bigger incumbents can kind of, you know, get incumbents can kind of, you know, get incumbents can kind of, you know, get out of the way on this. Um, and that out of the way on this. Um, and that out of the way on this. Um, and that will at least create, you know, some will at least create, you know, some will at least create, you know, some precedent or or case studies of what precedent or or case studies of what precedent or or case studies of what what this new sort of corporation could what this new sort of corporation could what this new sort of corporation could look like. But I do, you know, over time look like. But I do, you know, over time look like. But I do, you know, over time they'll still run into the same exact they'll still run into the same exact they'll still run into the same exact problems of every other corporation, problems of every other corporation, problems of every other corporation, which which which >> well, they'll run into they'll run into >> well, they'll run into they'll run into >> well, they'll run into they'll run into geography or market segments, you know, geography or market segments, you know, geography or market segments, you know, or or distribution challenges like those or or distribution challenges like those or or distribution challenges like those those things. Anything outside your those things. Anything outside your those things. Anything outside your little walls, you will run into the little walls, you will run into the little walls, you will run into the physical world, physical world, physical world, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> I do kind of like the idea that there >> I do kind of like the idea that there >> I do kind of like the idea that there are some new business models that open are some new business models that open are some new business models that open up now. Oh, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. up now. Oh, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. up now. Oh, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Because like there's so much either >> Because like there's so much either >> Because like there's so much either information or software that that information or software that that information or software that that basically goes underutilized by like a basically goes underutilized by like a basically goes underutilized by like a hundredx relative to like what what its hundredx relative to like what what its hundredx relative to like what what its economic value is simply because like economic value is simply because like economic value is simply because like nobody wants to pay five cents for nobody wants to pay five cents for nobody wants to pay five cents for accessing a you know piece of data or accessing a you know piece of data or accessing a you know piece of data or use a tool for $1 once. But like you do use a tool for $1 once. But like you do use a tool for $1 once. But like you do give these agents, you know, a budget give these agents, you know, a budget give these agents, you know, a budget and and a protocol to work with and all and and a protocol to work with and all and and a protocol to work with and all of a sudden you're like, "Oh, like on of a sudden you're like, "Oh, like on of a sudden you're like, "Oh, like on the fly they can go get medical research the fly they can go get medical research the fly they can go get medical research for some deep research task they're for some deep research task they're for some deep research task they're doing and I'll pay like $3 for that and doing and I'll pay like $3 for that and doing and I'll pay like $3 for that and the agent is able to go and transact." the agent is able to go and transact." the agent is able to go and transact." Like it kind of opens up a whole new Like it kind of opens up a whole new Like it kind of opens up a whole new world of business models for for the world of business models for for the world of business models for for the internet. internet. internet. >> Let me Oh, I'm gonna You're That was too >> Let me Oh, I'm gonna You're That was too >> Let me Oh, I'm gonna You're That was too nice. Okay. No, you're gonna go farther. nice. Okay. No, you're gonna go farther. nice. Okay. No, you're gonna go farther. No, that one is one where that's No, that one is one where that's No, that one is one where that's actually the biggest I think that the actually the biggest I think that the actually the biggest I think that the biggest sort of biggest sort of biggest sort of >> um in the air problem right now is >> um in the air problem right now is >> um in the air problem right now is everybody is trying to figure out the everybody is trying to figure out the everybody is trying to figure out the economics of all of this when they're economics of all of this when they're economics of all of this when they're off by at least an order of magnitude on off by at least an order of magnitude on off by at least an order of magnitude on how big the opportunity is. Okay, how big the opportunity is. Okay, how big the opportunity is. Okay, because the the new models that people because the the new models that people because the the new models that people will come up with that nobody knows what will come up with that nobody knows what will come up with that nobody knows what they are right now, but they will they are right now, but they will they are right now, but they will absolutely come out with new models absolutely come out with new models absolutely come out with new models because that's what happens with every because that's what happens with every because that's what happens with every new technology. And the thing that holds new technology. And the thing that holds new technology. And the thing that holds back the sort of the discussion now is back the sort of the discussion now is back the sort of the discussion now is you basically have a bunch of finance you basically have a bunch of finance you basically have a bunch of finance and Wall Street people trying to justify and Wall Street people trying to justify and Wall Street people trying to justify GPUs and tokens and things like as if GPUs and tokens and things like as if GPUs and tokens and things like as if we're in some old world and they're we're in some old world and they're we're in some old world and they're they're so they're they're viewing the they're so they're they're viewing the they're so they're they're viewing the world of revenue as sort of this linear world of revenue as sort of this linear world of revenue as sort of this linear step literally linear growth curve and step literally linear growth curve and step literally linear growth curve and trying to justify all the all the trying to justify all the all the trying to justify all the all the expense when people are going to create expense when people are going to create expense when people are going to create like this was the problem with PCs. like this was the problem with PCs. like this was the problem with PCs. People viewed PCs as a finite market People viewed PCs as a finite market People viewed PCs as a finite market because they just viewed the consumption because they just viewed the consumption because they just viewed the consumption of MIPS as some finite thing and they of MIPS as some finite thing and they of MIPS as some finite thing and they didn't think what would happen if we put didn't think what would happen if we put didn't think what would happen if we put all those MIPs on every desktop and in all those MIPs on every desktop and in all those MIPs on every desktop and in particular people thought software just particular people thought software just particular people thought software just came with the MIPS and nobody thought oh came with the MIPS and nobody thought oh came with the MIPS and nobody thought oh well they'll just sell the software one well they'll just sell the software one well they'll just sell the software one guy did and and it turns out that was guy did and and it turns out that was guy did and and it turns out that was like a really good idea and the same like a really good idea and the same like a really good idea and the same Bill and Paul and and the same thing Bill and Paul and and the same thing Bill and Paul and and the same thing happened but the same thing happened happened but the same thing happened happened but the same thing happened with the cloud which was people looked with the cloud which was people looked with the cloud which was people looked at the cloud and they said, "Oh, we're at the cloud and they said, "Oh, we're at the cloud and they said, "Oh, we're going to take all of the the server going to take all of the the server going to take all of the the server business," which was like literally like business," which was like literally like business," which was like literally like 60,000 units a year, 60,000 units a year, 60,000 units a year, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And we're just going to move it to >> And we're just going to move it to >> And we're just going to move it to someone else's data center, someone else's data center, someone else's data center, >> right? And that's the >> right? And that's the >> right? And that's the >> and that would be the business, and then >> and that would be the business, and then >> and that would be the business, and then we'll divide up the the price, right? we'll divide up the the price, right? we'll divide up the the price, right? And nobody went, "Oh, they're going to And nobody went, "Oh, they're going to And nobody went, "Oh, they're going to people are going to use a thousand times people are going to use a thousand times people are going to use a thousand times as much, right, as much, right, as much, right, >> of the resource leveling if we move it >> of the resource leveling if we move it >> of the resource leveling if we move it there." And that's exactly I mean that's there." And that's exactly I mean that's there." And that's exactly I mean that's the thing that I I I it just drives me the thing that I I I it just drives me the thing that I I I it just drives me absolutely bonkers that the Wall Street absolutely bonkers that the Wall Street absolutely bonkers that the Wall Street models have this fixed revenue pie models have this fixed revenue pie models have this fixed revenue pie >> zero sum thinking >> zero sum thinking >> zero sum thinking >> and it's it's this weird zero sum where >> and it's it's this weird zero sum where >> and it's it's this weird zero sum where they they just think that the amount of they they just think that the amount of they they just think that the amount of money that a company is going to spend money that a company is going to spend money that a company is going to spend and like this was the problem with with and like this was the problem with with and like this was the problem with with Salesforce that they faced when you were Salesforce that they faced when you were Salesforce that they faced when you were starting too but like Mark was was just starting too but like Mark was was just starting too but like Mark was was just blazing the trail which was like the CRM blazing the trail which was like the CRM blazing the trail which was like the CRM business was two billion a year and it business was two billion a year and it business was two billion a year and it was two billion in like you had to go was two billion in like you had to go was two billion in like you had to go buy all these servers and these Oracle buy all these servers and these Oracle buy all these servers and these Oracle licenses and this huge headache and licenses and this huge headache and licenses and this huge headache and years of deployment and consulting when years of deployment and consulting when years of deployment and consulting when if you could just get sales people to if you could just get sales people to if you could just get sales people to sign up individually they all will sign sign up individually they all will sign sign up individually they all will sign up with no friction and that's that is up with no friction and that's that is up with no friction and that's that is exact there is no no doubt that that is exact there is no no doubt that that is exact there is no no doubt that that is what's going to happen with AI what's going to happen with AI what's going to happen with AI >> let me give you an example of this so I >> let me give you an example of this so I >> let me give you an example of this so I um you know I've been in for investing um you know I've been in for investing um you know I've been in for investing for 10 years now I probably have a for 10 years now I probably have a for 10 years now I probably have a portfolio of 240 companies I work with portfolio of 240 companies I work with portfolio of 240 companies I work with some visibility let's say into 50 of some visibility let's say into 50 of some visibility let's say into 50 of them these are all infrastructure them these are all infrastructure them these are all infrastructure companies some historically done well companies some historically done well companies some historically done well some not so well every single one of some not so well every single one of some not so well every single one of them has gone asmtoic in the six months them has gone asmtoic in the six months them has gone asmtoic in the six months and you're like, "Okay, why is this?" It and you're like, "Okay, why is this?" It and you're like, "Okay, why is this?" It just turns out there's so much more just turns out there's so much more just turns out there's so much more software being written now than ever has software being written now than ever has software being written now than ever has been before. been before. been before. >> And so it's like and and and it's not >> And so it's like and and and it's not >> And so it's like and and and it's not because they've got enterprise because they've got enterprise because they've got enterprise customers, you know, it's just because customers, you know, it's just because customers, you know, it's just because there's just so much consumption of the there's just so much consumption of the there's just so much consumption of the of of the infrastructure layer right of of the infrastructure layer right of of the infrastructure layer right now. And so with more software, with now. And so with more software, with now. And so with more software, with more agents, there's going to be a lot more agents, there's going to be a lot more agents, there's going to be a lot more consumption of computer resources. more consumption of computer resources. more consumption of computer resources. So certainly in the case of the computer So certainly in the case of the computer So certainly in the case of the computer side of things, we're see a mess. Well, side of things, we're see a mess. Well, side of things, we're see a mess. Well, we haven't even gotten to the point yet we haven't even gotten to the point yet we haven't even gotten to the point yet where everyone's phone where everyone's phone where everyone's phone >> is a huge consumer of AI, right? >> is a huge consumer of AI, right? >> is a huge consumer of AI, right? >> So once everybody's phone and on device, >> So once everybody's phone and on device, >> So once everybody's phone and on device, like once your phone on device is like once your phone on device is like once your phone on device is consuming AI, the amount of it is going consuming AI, the amount of it is going consuming AI, the amount of it is going to go up by a billion. to go up by a billion. to go up by a billion. >> So do you like the microp payment piece? >> So do you like the microp payment piece? >> So do you like the microp payment piece? >> I all of them. The microp payments, >> I all of them. The microp payments, >> I all of them. The microp payments, there's a little bit of microp payments there's a little bit of microp payments there's a little bit of microp payments that has come with every technology that has come with every technology that has come with every technology there where they always think that like there where they always think that like there where they always think that like you'll be able to get like a fraction of you'll be able to get like a fraction of you'll be able to get like a fraction of a penny, but but in the end, especially a penny, but but in the end, especially a penny, but but in the end, especially in the enterprise, like people are just in the enterprise, like people are just in the enterprise, like people are just going to consume things. It's just going to consume things. It's just going to consume things. It's just cheaper and easier to buy like a bulk cheaper and easier to buy like a bulk cheaper and easier to buy like a bulk license for a bunch of stuff. license for a bunch of stuff. license for a bunch of stuff. >> Yeah. You want some predictability on >> Yeah. You want some predictability on >> Yeah. You want some predictability on that. that. that. >> Well, you want predictability and you >> Well, you want predictability and you >> Well, you want predictability and you just want like to not have to think just want like to not have to think just want like to not have to think about. about. about. >> I just I like the idea that it is the >> I just I like the idea that it is the >> I just I like the idea that it is the first time that you could like like first time that you could like like first time that you could like like there just the agent doesn't care about there just the agent doesn't care about there just the agent doesn't care about the friction of a small transaction. And the friction of a small transaction. And the friction of a small transaction. And so it's the first time that you could so it's the first time that you could so it's the first time that you could have resources behind a payw wall that have resources behind a payw wall that have resources behind a payw wall that something will actually be willing to something will actually be willing to something will actually be willing to pay for that resource. pay for that resource. pay for that resource. >> The world has built up the >> The world has built up the >> The world has built up the infrastructure to to aggregate those infrastructure to to aggregate those infrastructure to to aggregate those payments into something efficient for a payments into something efficient for a payments into something efficient for a customer, a service, customer, a service, customer, a service, >> right? And and because tokens are such a >> right? And and because tokens are such a >> right? And and because tokens are such a significant part of COGS right now, it significant part of COGS right now, it significant part of COGS right now, it is pushing the industry to do usage base is pushing the industry to do usage base is pushing the industry to do usage base >> in a way that we had like I remember >> in a way that we had like I remember >> in a way that we had like I remember when we went from like perpetual to when we went from like perpetual to when we went from like perpetual to recurring and that required like a bunch recurring and that required like a bunch recurring and that required like a bunch of huge changes like we're like we're of huge changes like we're like we're of huge changes like we're like we're going through the exact same change going through the exact same change going through the exact same change right now towards usage base and usage right now towards usage base and usage right now towards usage base and usage base is pretty granular and it actually base is pretty granular and it actually base is pretty granular and it actually allows I mean again you will have a allows I mean again you will have a allows I mean again you will have a contract with like contract with like contract with like >> you know we went through this with with >> you know we went through this with with >> you know we went through this with with AWS like people learned AWS like people learned AWS like people learned >> to do the credit and we went through the >> to do the credit and we went through the >> to do the credit and we went through the phase where like People were like so phase where like People were like so phase where like People were like so terrified of cloud compute that they terrified of cloud compute that they terrified of cloud compute that they were like we need companies in the were like we need companies in the were like we need companies in the middle to help us find the cheapest and middle to help us find the cheapest and middle to help us find the cheapest and to arbitrate it all and to arbitrate it all and to arbitrate it all and >> okay well now you write tokens into this >> okay well now you write tokens into this >> okay well now you write tokens into this and I don't see how we possibly have and I don't see how we possibly have and I don't see how we possibly have time in this in this conversation about time in this in this conversation about time in this in this conversation about as long as you guys can stay. as long as you guys can stay. as long as you guys can stay. >> Okay. But like like the the engineering >> Okay. But like like the the engineering >> Okay. But like like the the engineering compute budget conversation to me is compute budget conversation to me is compute budget conversation to me is going to be just like the most wild one going to be just like the most wild one going to be just like the most wild one in the next couple years. It's just like in the next couple years. It's just like in the next couple years. It's just like how much should you allocate of your how much should you allocate of your how much should you allocate of your engineering expense to tokens tokens and engineering expense to tokens tokens and engineering expense to tokens tokens and and it's like you you know depending on and it's like you you know depending on and it's like you you know depending on who you read on Twitter it could be 1% who you read on Twitter it could be 1% who you read on Twitter it could be 1% and the other and other side it could be and the other and other side it could be and the other and other side it could be 100%. 100%. 100%. >> And it's like >> And it's like >> And it's like >> yeah but this stuff >> yeah but this stuff >> yeah but this stuff >> no no no what CFOs have to literally >> no no no what CFOs have to literally >> no no no what CFOs have to literally they actually have to know the answer to they actually have to know the answer to they actually have to know the answer to >> I I understand they have to know but >> I I understand they have to know but >> I I understand they have to know but CFOs always want to know the answers to CFOs always want to know the answers to CFOs always want to know the answers to things that don't have answers. things that don't have answers. things that don't have answers. >> No Wall Street is going to make them >> No Wall Street is going to make them >> No Wall Street is going to make them know the answer. know the answer. know the answer. >> No no Wall Street is going to make them >> No no Wall Street is going to make them >> No no Wall Street is going to make them come up with some number and hold them come up with some number and hold them come up with some number and hold them to it and then they'll get fired and to it and then they'll get fired and to it and then they'll get fired and then it'll but it Okay. Okay. R&D R&D is then it'll but it Okay. Okay. R&D R&D is then it'll but it Okay. Okay. R&D R&D is somewhere between 14 to 30% of revenue somewhere between 14 to 30% of revenue somewhere between 14 to 30% of revenue of any public technology company. Let's of any public technology company. Let's of any public technology company. Let's just say okay. The difference between just say okay. The difference between just say okay. The difference between compute being 2x the cost of your compute being 2x the cost of your compute being 2x the cost of your engineering team or or you know you know engineering team or or you know you know engineering team or or you know you know 3% more is like that's EP that's all 3% more is like that's EP that's all 3% more is like that's EP that's all your EPS. your EPS. your EPS. >> I I get it. We will have to know the >> I I get it. We will have to know the >> I I get it. We will have to know the answer. answer. answer. >> I'm perfectly willing to sacrifice a few >> I'm perfectly willing to sacrifice a few >> I'm perfectly willing to sacrifice a few CFOs at the altit of this. CFOs at the altit of this. CFOs at the altit of this. >> I want that. That's a good clip by the >> I want that. That's a good clip by the >> I want that. That's a good clip by the way. But but the reason the reason is is way. But but the reason the reason is is way. But but the reason the reason is is because again this is this is trying to because again this is this is trying to because again this is this is trying to know what we just don't know right now. know what we just don't know right now. know what we just don't know right now. >> And and this has happened with internet >> And and this has happened with internet >> And and this has happened with internet bandwidth. This has happened bandwidth. This has happened bandwidth. This has happened >> this is not even close to internet >> this is not even close to internet >> this is not even close to internet bandwidth. bandwidth. bandwidth. >> Oh no no no. I I beg to differ like like >> Oh no no no. I I beg to differ like like >> Oh no no no. I I beg to differ like like people were free. It happened with people were free. It happened with people were free. It happened with vacuum tubes. It happened with vacuum tubes. It happened with vacuum tubes. It happened with transistors. It has happened with every transistors. It has happened with every transistors. It has happened with every technology. There was this oh my god technology. There was this oh my god technology. There was this oh my god like it happened with programmers. There like it happened with programmers. There like it happened with programmers. There was a there there was a time when was a there there was a time when was a there there was a time when programmers were going to swallow every programmers were going to swallow every programmers were going to swallow every company. company. company. >> Yeah. And that's not it was in my >> Yeah. And that's not it was in my >> Yeah. And that's not it was in my lifetime, not some madeup weird. lifetime, not some madeup weird. lifetime, not some madeup weird. >> Yeah. But I don't think we've ever had a >> Yeah. But I don't think we've ever had a >> Yeah. But I don't think we've ever had a point where the end you every end user point where the end you every end user point where the end you every end user in an organization has has sort of a in an organization has has sort of a in an organization has has sort of a completely elastic ability to spin up a completely elastic ability to spin up a completely elastic ability to spin up a resource on their behalf. resource on their behalf. resource on their behalf. >> Well, it certainly >> Well, it certainly >> Well, it certainly >> that actually is actually in many cases >> that actually is actually in many cases >> that actually is actually in many cases very valid for them to go spin it up. very valid for them to go spin it up. very valid for them to go spin it up. >> But it certainly it certainly rhymes >> But it certainly it certainly rhymes >> But it certainly it certainly rhymes with what happened in the early 2000s with what happened in the early 2000s with what happened in the early 2000s with cloud. I remember very similar with cloud. I remember very similar with cloud. I remember very similar discussions when we went from capex to discussions when we went from capex to discussions when we went from capex to opex and then unlimited spend. opex and then unlimited spend. opex and then unlimited spend. >> Oh no. And there were remember there >> Oh no. And there were remember there >> Oh no. And there were remember there were companies who the CFOs would sit in were companies who the CFOs would sit in were companies who the CFOs would sit in our briefing center here and say you our briefing center here and say you our briefing center here and say you don't understand we are like we are don't understand we are like we are don't understand we are like we are agriculture I can see the rhyming I can agriculture I can see the rhyming I can agriculture I can see the rhyming I can see see see >> we are an agriculture company we we only >> we are an agriculture company we we only >> we are an agriculture company we we only know capex we we we have no or or no know capex we we we have no or or no know capex we we we have no or or no sold through this right no we both or or sold through this right no we both or or sold through this right no we both or or like oh no we are an opex based company like oh no we are an opex based company like oh no we are an opex based company so if you tell us I we love the cloud so if you tell us I we love the cloud so if you tell us I we love the cloud because we just shipped everything because we just shipped everything because we just shipped everything shifted everything to OPEX and so all of shifted everything to OPEX and so all of shifted everything to OPEX and so all of the stuff like the rules of accounting the stuff like the rules of accounting the stuff like the rules of accounting work out also don't I I keep thinking do work out also don't I I keep thinking do work out also don't I I keep thinking do not discount the local compute engine as not discount the local compute engine as not discount the local compute engine as being a release valve for all of this. being a release valve for all of this. being a release valve for all of this. >> When's that going to happen? >> When's that going to happen? >> When's that going to happen? >> Well, the the question is it's not when >> Well, the the question is it's not when >> Well, the the question is it's not when does it just happen with today's view of does it just happen with today's view of does it just happen with today's view of the technology, but how all of a sudden? the technology, but how all of a sudden? the technology, but how all of a sudden? Well, wow. There's Well, wow. There's Well, wow. There's >> Has that historically ever gone that >> Has that historically ever gone that >> Has that historically ever gone that direction? direction? direction? >> Yeah, exactly. It goes the opposite, >> Yeah, exactly. It goes the opposite, >> Yeah, exactly. It goes the opposite, right? right? right? >> No, it went all to the client. >> No, it went all to the client. >> No, it went all to the client. >> Well, okay. Go back to the 80s. Yes. >> Well, okay. Go back to the 80s. Yes. >> Well, okay. Go back to the 80s. Yes. >> No, that's most of the examples that >> No, that's most of the examples that >> No, that's most of the examples that we're hearing so far. we're hearing so far. we're hearing so far. >> Whoa. >> Whoa. >> Whoa. >> That was uncalled for vacuum tubes. He's talking about vacuum. vacuum tubes. He's talking about vacuum. >> But I do those examples because you >> But I do those examples because you >> But I do those examples because you can't argue with them and it's much can't argue with them and it's much can't argue with them and it's much easier that way. easier that way. easier that way. >> I You're right. I can't prosecute all >> I You're right. I can't prosecute all >> I You're right. I can't prosecute all but it's only been, you know, 10 or 15 but it's only been, you know, 10 or 15 but it's only been, you know, 10 or 15 years that it's all that it moved back years that it's all that it moved back years that it's all that it moved back to all cloud. And then what has happened to all cloud. And then what has happened to all cloud. And then what has happened recently with that? A lot of people wake recently with that? A lot of people wake recently with that? A lot of people wake up in the morning and they say, "Oh, up in the morning and they say, "Oh, up in the morning and they say, "Oh, we're moving back to doing some critical we're moving back to doing some critical we're moving back to doing some critical but stationary workflows on on prem and but stationary workflows on on prem and but stationary workflows on on prem and >> with AI." That's true. >> with AI." That's true. >> with AI." That's true. >> Dude, you wrote the blog post, man. Uh >> Dude, you wrote the blog post, man. Uh >> Dude, you wrote the blog post, man. Uh don't make me go through the the don't make me go through the the don't make me go through the the archives. the repaid. archives. the repaid. archives. the repaid. >> I had to deal with so many Wall Street >> I had to deal with so many Wall Street >> I had to deal with so many Wall Street questions on that one by the way. questions on that one by the way. questions on that one by the way. >> Well, because your also because your >> Well, because your also because your >> Well, because your also because your competitor competitor competitor >> what >> what >> what >> went went back to >> went went back to >> went went back to >> rep. We're talking we're talking about >> rep. We're talking we're talking about >> rep. We're talking we're talking about two very different I agree I agree with two very different I agree I agree with two very different I agree I agree with like building your own data center. I'm like building your own data center. I'm like building your own data center. I'm talking about this this notion of edge talking about this this notion of edge talking about this this notion of edge computing where things go to devices computing where things go to devices computing where things go to devices like that seems to be like that seems to be like that seems to be >> I I'm more I I'm more in the like a >> I I'm more I I'm more in the like a >> I I'm more I I'm more in the like a cloud maximalist camp. But but but cloud maximalist camp. But but but cloud maximalist camp. But but but sorry. So you just don't think you don't sorry. So you just don't think you don't sorry. So you just don't think you don't even think for like one second that it even think for like one second that it even think for like one second that it matters whether like how you're supposed matters whether like how you're supposed matters whether like how you're supposed to be an engineering leader right now to be an engineering leader right now to be an engineering leader right now managing the compute budget of the managing the compute budget of the managing the compute budget of the engineering team. engineering team. engineering team. >> No, of course it matters. I just think >> No, of course it matters. I just think >> No, of course it matters. I just think in the long term this thing will get in the long term this thing will get in the long term this thing will get >> Oh, sure. Long term all what do we who >> Oh, sure. Long term all what do we who >> Oh, sure. Long term all what do we who cares? We don't even need podcast. cares? We don't even need podcast. cares? We don't even need podcast. Here's what I think. Let me here's Here's what I think. Let me here's Here's what I think. Let me here's >> But here's a rule here's a rule of thumb >> But here's a rule here's a rule of thumb >> But here's a rule here's a rule of thumb first. Like the startups are going to first. Like the startups are going to first. Like the startups are going to burn through available capital burn through available capital burn through available capital pretending like it's not a problem and pretending like it's not a problem and pretending like it's not a problem and they are going to do that. do that they are going to do that. do that they are going to do that. do that anyway, anyway, anyway, >> right? And a lot of big companies are >> right? And a lot of big companies are >> right? And a lot of big companies are going to be so terrified they're just going to be so terrified they're just going to be so terrified they're just going to freeze and not do anything. And going to freeze and not do anything. And going to freeze and not do anything. And then people are going to actually start then people are going to actually start then people are going to actually start buying it on their own and they're going buying it on their own and they're going buying it on their own and they're going to do all the things that companies do to do all the things that companies do to do all the things that companies do when they're big, have a lot of money when they're big, have a lot of money when they're big, have a lot of money but don't want to spend it. And in the but don't want to spend it. And in the but don't want to spend it. And in the middle I we are going to see like if you middle I we are going to see like if you middle I we are going to see like if you pick a category of product or go to pick a category of product or go to pick a category of product or go to market or something there are going to market or something there are going to market or something there are going to be people who are willing to make the be people who are willing to make the be people who are willing to make the bet bet bet >> for whatever reasons that they can >> for whatever reasons that they can >> for whatever reasons that they can because of their financials and they are because of their financials and they are because of their financials and they are going to go ahead and they are going to going to go ahead and they are going to going to go ahead and they are going to become the people who lead in the space become the people who lead in the space become the people who lead in the space as so long as they can maintain the as so long as they can maintain the as so long as they can maintain the financials. Now, they might do it in financials. Now, they might do it in financials. Now, they might do it in they might say, "Oh, we're going to just they might say, "Oh, we're going to just they might say, "Oh, we're going to just do it here in this particular do it here in this particular do it here in this particular application space or here in this application space or here in this application space or here in this particular usage space, but this this particular usage space, but this this particular usage space, but this this idea that there are that nobody is going idea that there are that nobody is going idea that there are that nobody is going to go in and because they're so to go in and because they're so to go in and because they're so terrified that the CFO is going to get terrified that the CFO is going to get terrified that the CFO is going to get fired or something is is just crazy." fired or something is is just crazy." fired or something is is just crazy." Yeah. And but then there are going to be Yeah. And but then there are going to be Yeah. And but then there are going to be CFOs who make a mistake and like, okay, CFOs who make a mistake and like, okay, CFOs who make a mistake and like, okay, everybody gets a little. Yes. everybody gets a little. Yes. everybody gets a little. Yes. >> Well, if they do that, that's a complete >> Well, if they do that, that's a complete >> Well, if they do that, that's a complete fail. Yes. But but also or like you get fail. Yes. But but also or like you get fail. Yes. But but also or like you get you like you there is a really you like you there is a really you like you there is a really interesting like um uh you know finesse interesting like um uh you know finesse interesting like um uh you know finesse here which is like you don't really want here which is like you don't really want here which is like you don't really want your engineers right now having to think your engineers right now having to think your engineers right now having to think about compute budget because we're still about compute budget because we're still about compute budget because we're still developing the oh okay so that set you developing the oh okay so that set you developing the oh okay so that set you over like over like over like >> I just feel like we've been having the >> I just feel like we've been having the >> I just feel like we've been having the discussion for 15 years when it comes to discussion for 15 years when it comes to discussion for 15 years when it comes to cloud. This is totally new. Only only cloud. This is totally new. Only only cloud. This is totally new. Only only like 10 only like 10% of your like 10 only like 10% of your like 10 only like 10% of your engineering had to think about cloud engineering had to think about cloud engineering had to think about cloud infrastructure. infrastructure. infrastructure. >> In in 2016 to 2018 time frame, there's a >> In in 2016 to 2018 time frame, there's a >> In in 2016 to 2018 time frame, there's a whole set of companies that was whole set of companies that was whole set of companies that was basically like like the dashboard for basically like like the dashboard for basically like like the dashboard for what was it called? Fin where the what was it called? Fin where the what was it called? Fin where the developers developers developers >> fin is very cool right now because >> fin is very cool right now because >> fin is very cool right now because >> developers would have would developers >> developers would have would developers >> developers would have would developers have access because cloud spins were have access because cloud spins were have access because cloud spins were getting out of control and API spend getting out of control and API spend getting out of control and API spend were getting out of control and so it were getting out of control and so it were getting out of control and so it was like you know here's your Twilio was like you know here's your Twilio was like you know here's your Twilio spin here's spin here's spin here's >> but but you know it's it's pretty >> but but you know it's it's pretty >> but but you know it's it's pretty different and I'm I'm going to wait for different and I'm I'm going to wait for different and I'm I'm going to wait for all the comments to come in on YouTube all the comments to come in on YouTube all the comments to come in on YouTube to call you out on this like it's it's to call you out on this like it's it's to call you out on this like it's it's like you can get into a conference room like you can get into a conference room like you can get into a conference room and just be like hey can you make that and just be like hey can you make that and just be like hey can you make that one you know kind of algorithm a little one you know kind of algorithm a little one you know kind of algorithm a little bit more efficient so you don't use as bit more efficient so you don't use as bit more efficient so you don't use as much you know of our cluster at this much you know of our cluster at this much you know of our cluster at this time of night or whatever and then you time of night or whatever and then you time of night or whatever and then you get out of meeting somebody go improves get out of meeting somebody go improves get out of meeting somebody go improves it and you're good. it and you're good. it and you're good. >> This is like every single prompt that >> This is like every single prompt that >> This is like every single prompt that every engineer is doing like do you like every engineer is doing like do you like every engineer is doing like do you like you have to decide like do you want that you have to decide like do you want that you have to decide like do you want that to be a longunning prompt? Do you want to be a longunning prompt? Do you want to be a longunning prompt? Do you want do you want to be a longunning agent? Do do you want to be a longunning agent? Do do you want to be a longunning agent? Do you want to parallelize that? you want to parallelize that? you want to parallelize that? >> Like like do you want like what is your >> Like like do you want like what is your >> Like like do you want like what is your comfort level of wasted tokens? Like for comfort level of wasted tokens? Like for comfort level of wasted tokens? Like for me right now I'm like yeah we should me right now I'm like yeah we should me right now I'm like yeah we should probably waste a lot of tokens because probably waste a lot of tokens because probably waste a lot of tokens because that means that we're like trying new that means that we're like trying new that means that we're like trying new things. Yeah. and like like should your things. Yeah. and like like should your things. Yeah. and like like should your head of engineering be happy if if you head of engineering be happy if if you head of engineering be happy if if you run 10 experiments in parallel and thus run 10 experiments in parallel and thus run 10 experiments in parallel and thus you're obviously going to be wasting 90% you're obviously going to be wasting 90% you're obviously going to be wasting 90% of the tokens um but you're going to of the tokens um but you're going to of the tokens um but you're going to choose one of the successful paths or do choose one of the successful paths or do choose one of the successful paths or do you want to tell the team no before you you want to tell the team no before you you want to tell the team no before you go do that make sure to like like really go do that make sure to like like really go do that make sure to like like really go and design the perfect system like we go and design the perfect system like we go and design the perfect system like we actually have a whole bunch of open actually have a whole bunch of open actually have a whole bunch of open questions that are going to start to questions that are going to start to questions that are going to start to happen like literally as of this happen like literally as of this happen like literally as of this recording time people are freaking out recording time people are freaking out recording time people are freaking out right now on the new cloud code max plan right now on the new cloud code max plan right now on the new cloud code max plan you know whole like like because they're you know whole like like because they're you know whole like like because they're getting blocked after like three prompts getting blocked after like three prompts getting blocked after like three prompts So this is this is going to be like a So this is this is going to be like a So this is this is going to be like a very like real topic until we can very like real topic until we can very like real topic until we can actually find a way to build data center actually find a way to build data center actually find a way to build data center capacity. capacity. capacity. >> Oh that's a different problem. Okay. No, >> Oh that's a different problem. Okay. No, >> Oh that's a different problem. Okay. No, because no one is well assuming well because no one is well assuming well because no one is well assuming well wait no you can assume that if we build wait no you can assume that if we build wait no you can assume that if we build more capacity the price will drop more capacity the price will drop more capacity the price will drop because there is more capacity and we're because there is more capacity and we're because there is more capacity and we're priced now based on limited capac priced now based on limited capac priced now based on limited capac whatever but like this is just going to whatever but like this is just going to whatever but like this is just going to get worked out and I feel bad for the get worked out and I feel bad for the get worked out and I feel bad for the those that have to make a decision those that have to make a decision those that have to make a decision immediately about which 17 people get no immediately about which 17 people get no immediately about which 17 people get no more tokens this week or or whatever and more tokens this week or or whatever and more tokens this week or or whatever and that the whole company is walking around that the whole company is walking around that the whole company is walking around with like a token card and the the with like a token card and the the with like a token card and the the person in the lunch line person in the lunch line person in the lunch line Yeah. like it's the person in the lunch Yeah. like it's the person in the lunch Yeah. like it's the person in the lunch line is punching their card every time line is punching their card every time line is punching their card every time they do. But but like I you know I I I they do. But but like I you know I I I they do. But but like I you know I I I don't know like somebody we were talking don't know like somebody we were talking don't know like somebody we were talking about today about performance and how about today about performance and how about today about performance and how like you know we used to write command like you know we used to write command like you know we used to write command line tools that spit out the time it line tools that spit out the time it line tools that spit out the time it took after you ran a command line just took after you ran a command line just took after you ran a command line just so you knew and if you knew you were so you knew and if you knew you were so you knew and if you knew you were getting better or worse and you know but getting better or worse and you know but getting better or worse and you know but you the thing is is this is all going to you the thing is is this is all going to you the thing is is this is all going to go away. There's absolutely no doubt go away. There's absolutely no doubt go away. There's absolutely no doubt that this just goes away and that this just goes away and that this just goes away and >> I think on the 10ear time frame >> I think on the 10ear time frame >> I think on the 10ear time frame >> and the biggest reason it does is is >> and the biggest reason it does is is >> and the biggest reason it does is is because you you have to do the benny off because you you have to do the benny off because you you have to do the benny off kind of math which is if you're paying kind of math which is if you're paying kind of math which is if you're paying an enterprise salesperson you know a an enterprise salesperson you know a an enterprise salesperson you know a million dollars a year you have to ask million dollars a year you have to ask million dollars a year you have to ask how much is their tool worth. how much is their tool worth. how much is their tool worth. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And if you're paying an engineer X >> And if you're paying an engineer X >> And if you're paying an engineer X dollars a year well at some point their dollars a year well at some point their dollars a year well at some point their their tooling is worth their tooling is worth their tooling is worth >> it's absolutely worth it >> it's absolutely worth it >> it's absolutely worth it >> and it's not going to even be an issue >> and it's not going to even be an issue >> and it's not going to even be an issue and and and and and and >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I don't think it's >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I don't think it's >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I don't think it's um I think um I think um I think >> and so if there's a capacity thing in >> and so if there's a capacity thing in >> and so if there's a capacity thing in the short term, yeah, the short term, yeah, the short term, yeah, >> that's a different that that is a >> that's a different that that is a >> that's a different that that is a different problem driving the price than different problem driving the price than different problem driving the price than this just we're going to forever have to this just we're going to forever have to this just we're going to forever have to be in some budgeting exercise. be in some budgeting exercise. be in some budgeting exercise. >> I think I think law of large numbers >> I think I think law of large numbers >> I think I think law of large numbers solves this because because eventually solves this because because eventually solves this because because eventually you have enough engineers, they're using you have enough engineers, they're using you have enough engineers, they're using this much compute, but like we're in a this much compute, but like we're in a this much compute, but like we're in a transition phase where like most people transition phase where like most people transition phase where like most people thought, you know, the two-year ago thought, you know, the two-year ago thought, you know, the two-year ago level of spend on AI, which is a it's a level of spend on AI, which is a it's a level of spend on AI, which is a it's a chatbot and chatbot and chatbot and >> Yeah. Yeah. But they were wrong. >> Yeah. Yeah. But they were wrong. >> Yeah. Yeah. But they were wrong. >> Yeah. Right. Okay. >> Yeah. Right. Okay. >> Yeah. Right. Okay. >> But they were wrong. But they were >> But they were wrong. But they were >> But they were wrong. But they were wrong. wrong. wrong. >> We tried to warn them. No, but they were >> We tried to warn them. No, but they were >> We tried to warn them. No, but they were wrong because they saw it as this this wrong because they saw it as this this wrong because they saw it as this this particular use case. Yes. And the but particular use case. Yes. And the but particular use case. Yes. And the but again like you you know again like you you know again like you you know >> like the vacuum tube thing you made fun >> like the vacuum tube thing you made fun >> like the vacuum tube thing you made fun of. of. of. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But but like there was a time when they >> But but like there was a time when they >> But but like there was a time when they thought that the that like whole like thought that the that like whole like thought that the that like whole like all of the Dakotas would be covered in all of the Dakotas would be covered in all of the Dakotas would be covered in vacuum tube warehouses and people on vacuum tube warehouses and people on vacuum tube warehouses and people on roller skates would be running up and roller skates would be running up and roller skates would be running up and down the aisles replacing vacuum tubes down the aisles replacing vacuum tubes down the aisles replacing vacuum tubes just so we could fight World War II. M I just so we could fight World War II. M I just so we could fight World War II. M I I mean like that was how that was the I mean like that was how that was the I mean like that was how that was the and they thought that and then someone and they thought that and then someone and they thought that and then someone said hey how about a transistor and and said hey how about a transistor and and said hey how about a transistor and and like we are going to have a transistor like we are going to have a transistor like we are going to have a transistor moment with all of this. It might just moment with all of this. It might just moment with all of this. It might just be more supply the way we think of it be more supply the way we think of it be more supply the way we think of it >> but it also might be an actual >> but it also might be an actual >> but it also might be an actual algorithmic fundamental change. It could algorithmic fundamental change. It could algorithmic fundamental change. It could be a change in the hardware. There's a be a change in the hardware. There's a be a change in the hardware. There's a lot of stuff that can happen that lot of stuff that can happen that lot of stuff that can happen that changes this particular moment in time. changes this particular moment in time. changes this particular moment in time. It's just this I think it's particularly It's just this I think it's particularly It's just this I think it's particularly weird that everybody has just gotten to weird that everybody has just gotten to weird that everybody has just gotten to token. Yeah. which is the same thing token. Yeah. which is the same thing token. Yeah. which is the same thing that happened with IBM and mainframes. that happened with IBM and mainframes. that happened with IBM and mainframes. People were on MIPS and then one day the People were on MIPS and then one day the People were on MIPS and then one day the reality was IBM was selling more MIPS reality was IBM was selling more MIPS reality was IBM was selling more MIPS for fewer dollars every year. Yeah. And for fewer dollars every year. Yeah. And for fewer dollars every year. Yeah. And didn't even realize it. And they were didn't even realize it. And they were didn't even realize it. And they were still pricing their mainframes by MIPS still pricing their mainframes by MIPS still pricing their mainframes by MIPS until it got pointed out to them that until it got pointed out to them that until it got pointed out to them that they were on a decreasing curve because they were on a decreasing curve because they were on a decreasing curve because they were making MIPS faster than they they were making MIPS faster than they they were making MIPS faster than they can charge for. can charge for. can charge for. >> And that's what's going to happen >> And that's what's going to happen >> And that's what's going to happen guaranteed. guaranteed. guaranteed. >> Love it. >> Love it. >> Love it. >> I I just said that in a hardcore way. >> I I just said that in a hardcore way. >> I I just said that in a hardcore way. >> That was great. sound like it sounds >> That was great. sound like it sounds >> That was great. sound like it sounds really great to sound like I know what really great to sound like I know what really great to sound like I know what I'm making. I'm making. I'm making. >> Guaranteed. >> Guaranteed. >> Guaranteed. >> I actually probably believe it.