The Comms Strategist Behind Anduril, Shopify & Cognition | Lulu Cheng Meservey

So you were born in China yet you speak So you were born in China yet you speak Norwegian. Can you explain what occurred Norwegian. Can you explain what occurred Norwegian. Can you explain what occurred in your life between these two points? in your life between these two points? in your life between these two points? >> Yes. I was born in rural China. I was >> Yes. I was born in rural China. I was >> Yes. I was born in rural China. I was born in a little village where I think born in a little village where I think born in a little village where I think um my mom didn't even know whether I um my mom didn't even know whether I um my mom didn't even know whether I would come out a boy or a girl or in 6 would come out a boy or a girl or in 6 would come out a boy or a girl or in 6 months or 12 months or there was very months or 12 months or there was very months or 12 months or there was very little knowledge. And so I emerged and little knowledge. And so I emerged and little knowledge. And so I emerged and we were able to leave China because my we were able to leave China because my we were able to leave China because my father was sent to Germany to get his father was sent to Germany to get his father was sent to Germany to get his PhD in astrophysics. I think at that PhD in astrophysics. I think at that PhD in astrophysics. I think at that time the number of people who wanted to time the number of people who wanted to time the number of people who wanted to leave China far exceeded the number of leave China far exceeded the number of leave China far exceeded the number of people who were allowed to. So people who were allowed to. So people who were allowed to. So technically we were supposed to stay technically we were supposed to stay technically we were supposed to stay behind as a kind of collateral to make behind as a kind of collateral to make behind as a kind of collateral to make sure that he came back. However, dot dot sure that he came back. However, dot dot sure that he came back. However, dot dot dot we end up settling in Germany. My dot we end up settling in Germany. My dot we end up settling in Germany. My mom and I actually do go to join my mom and I actually do go to join my mom and I actually do go to join my father at the University of H Highleberg father at the University of H Highleberg father at the University of H Highleberg where he was getting uh his PhD and we where he was getting uh his PhD and we where he was getting uh his PhD and we started moving around to different started moving around to different started moving around to different universities where he would study at universities where he would study at universities where he would study at like University of X to work at the like University of X to work at the like University of X to work at the observatory and so University of Oslo is observatory and so University of Oslo is observatory and so University of Oslo is one of the places where he uh was sent one of the places where he uh was sent one of the places where he uh was sent to work on astrophysics and that's where to work on astrophysics and that's where to work on astrophysics and that's where I did a lot of my growing up went to I did a lot of my growing up went to I did a lot of my growing up went to public school and I just became a little public school and I just became a little public school and I just became a little bit Norwegian. How many different bit Norwegian. How many different bit Norwegian. How many different countries did you live in then? countries did you live in then? countries did you live in then? >> Yeah, I grew up in uh China, then >> Yeah, I grew up in uh China, then >> Yeah, I grew up in uh China, then Germany, Norway, Canada, at which point Germany, Norway, Canada, at which point Germany, Norway, Canada, at which point we were able to become Canadian we were able to become Canadian we were able to become Canadian citizens, which was very exciting and citizens, which was very exciting and citizens, which was very exciting and welcoming for us. And then grand slam, welcoming for us. And then grand slam, welcoming for us. And then grand slam, big dream, the United States. So I came big dream, the United States. So I came big dream, the United States. So I came to the US for college, been here ever to the US for college, been here ever to the US for college, been here ever since, and a few years ago naturalized since, and a few years ago naturalized since, and a few years ago naturalized in the first Trump administration, which in the first Trump administration, which in the first Trump administration, which was very exciting for me. was very exciting for me. was very exciting for me. >> How long did you know that you wanted to >> How long did you know that you wanted to >> How long did you know that you wanted to come to America? Was it just for school come to America? Was it just for school come to America? Was it just for school or did you think no, I'm going to live or did you think no, I'm going to live or did you think no, I'm going to live here after? here after? here after? >> No, I just wanted to live and be here >> No, I just wanted to live and be here >> No, I just wanted to live and be here and be American. It was a dream that was and be American. It was a dream that was and be American. It was a dream that was sort of inherited from my father. If he sort of inherited from my father. If he sort of inherited from my father. If he hadn't gone to Germany, he would have hadn't gone to Germany, he would have hadn't gone to Germany, he would have tried to go to the US. In fact, the only tried to go to the US. In fact, the only tried to go to the US. In fact, the only reason he couldn't was because it was reason he couldn't was because it was reason he couldn't was because it was like overs subscribed as a destination like overs subscribed as a destination like overs subscribed as a destination at the time. So, we've had kind of a at the time. So, we've had kind of a at the time. So, we've had kind of a multigenerational dream to come to the multigenerational dream to come to the multigenerational dream to come to the US. And what I'm doing now feels like US. And what I'm doing now feels like US. And what I'm doing now feels like the culmination of multiple generations the culmination of multiple generations the culmination of multiple generations of work. I consider you a very singular of work. I consider you a very singular of work. I consider you a very singular like player on the board. I don't know like player on the board. I don't know like player on the board. I don't know anybody else that has a business like anybody else that has a business like anybody else that has a business like yours. You do the comms for some of the yours. You do the comms for some of the yours. You do the comms for some of the greatest tech founders in the world. You greatest tech founders in the world. You greatest tech founders in the world. You have anywhere, you know, from like 10, have anywhere, you know, from like 10, have anywhere, you know, from like 10, let's say 10 to 12 clients at a time, let's say 10 to 12 clients at a time, let's say 10 to 12 clients at a time, but you have a weight list of, you know, but you have a weight list of, you know, but you have a weight list of, you know, a thousand companies that want to work a thousand companies that want to work a thousand companies that want to work with you. A with you. A with you. A >> little less. >> little less. >> little less. >> Yeah, a little less that that want to >> Yeah, a little less that that want to >> Yeah, a little less that that want to work with you. But it's always like the work with you. But it's always like the work with you. But it's always like the elite of the elite. And a few of these elite of the elite. And a few of these elite of the elite. And a few of these people have been on the show, for people have been on the show, for people have been on the show, for example, and I've talked to them uh in example, and I've talked to them uh in example, and I've talked to them uh in private about you. So, it's an unlikely private about you. So, it's an unlikely private about you. So, it's an unlikely story. I happen to know this because we story. I happen to know this because we story. I happen to know this because we spent a bunch of time together the last spent a bunch of time together the last spent a bunch of time together the last year and a half, but can you explain? year and a half, but can you explain? year and a half, but can you explain? Okay, you go to college. What do you Okay, you go to college. What do you Okay, you go to college. What do you think you were going to do when you were think you were going to do when you were think you were going to do when you were in school? in school? in school? >> I did not know what to do. You and I >> I did not know what to do. You and I >> I did not know what to do. You and I have talked about friends of ours who've have talked about friends of ours who've have talked about friends of ours who've known maybe from an early age that they known maybe from an early age that they known maybe from an early age that they wanted to go in a certain direction. I wanted to go in a certain direction. I wanted to go in a certain direction. I did not know. And I think because the did not know. And I think because the did not know. And I think because the thing that I'm doing actually has not thing that I'm doing actually has not thing that I'm doing actually has not existed until I started doing it. And existed until I started doing it. And existed until I started doing it. And there are many other things like this there are many other things like this there are many other things like this out there that don't exist until someone out there that don't exist until someone out there that don't exist until someone starts doing it. So, I think there's a starts doing it. So, I think there's a starts doing it. So, I think there's a lesson there. But what I really was lesson there. But what I really was lesson there. But what I really was forced to do and then enjoyed doing was forced to do and then enjoyed doing was forced to do and then enjoyed doing was some version of super duper reading the some version of super duper reading the some version of super duper reading the room and then figuring out how to become room and then figuring out how to become room and then figuring out how to become and speak as someone that the room would and speak as someone that the room would and speak as someone that the room would accept. And as a kid moving around and accept. And as a kid moving around and accept. And as a kid moving around and always being the weird kid with the always being the weird kid with the always being the weird kid with the weird accent and the weird clothes. It's weird accent and the weird clothes. It's weird accent and the weird clothes. It's a it's a forced almost survival a it's a forced almost survival a it's a forced almost survival mechanism. I'll tell you a story about mechanism. I'll tell you a story about mechanism. I'll tell you a story about uh in Norway in a second how I learned uh in Norway in a second how I learned uh in Norway in a second how I learned this. And when I got to Canada, I this. And when I got to Canada, I this. And when I got to Canada, I actually learned English from a book actually learned English from a book actually learned English from a book called English. [laughter] called English. [laughter] called English. [laughter] It literally was like a green and blue It literally was like a green and blue It literally was like a green and blue book. I could I could picture it looked book. I could I could picture it looked book. I could I could picture it looked like a Greyhound bus seat type of design like a Greyhound bus seat type of design like a Greyhound bus seat type of design called English. I read it and I was like called English. I read it and I was like called English. I read it and I was like Neo waking up from the Matrix. I was Neo waking up from the Matrix. I was Neo waking up from the Matrix. I was like, I know English. like, I know English. like, I know English. >> I thought I knew English. I actually did >> I thought I knew English. I actually did >> I thought I knew English. I actually did not because not because not because >> English there's like the book English >> English there's like the book English >> English there's like the book English and then there's the how people actually and then there's the how people actually and then there's the how people actually use it English. So, while I was in use it English. So, while I was in use it English. So, while I was in college, I did uh an interview with BCG college, I did uh an interview with BCG college, I did uh an interview with BCG or something that the career office or something that the career office or something that the career office funnels you towards. And thank goodness funnels you towards. And thank goodness funnels you towards. And thank goodness I did not get this role. But part of the I did not get this role. But part of the I did not get this role. But part of the reason I didn't get the role was they reason I didn't get the role was they reason I didn't get the role was they asked me if I had any experience doing asked me if I had any experience doing asked me if I had any experience doing something. And I said, "Yeah, I I have something. And I said, "Yeah, I I have something. And I said, "Yeah, I I have quite a bit of experience below the quite a bit of experience below the quite a bit of experience below the belt." [laughter] belt." [laughter] belt." [laughter] And the difference between below the And the difference between below the And the difference between below the belt and under my belt is in some ways belt and under my belt is in some ways belt and under my belt is in some ways almost nothing and in other ways like in almost nothing and in other ways like in almost nothing and in other ways like in that interview everything. that interview everything. that interview everything. >> And so even now I feel like I'm still >> And so even now I feel like I'm still >> And so even now I feel like I'm still learning to speak English and adapt and learning to speak English and adapt and learning to speak English and adapt and to and to think about the fine textures to and to think about the fine textures to and to think about the fine textures of words and meanings in every different of words and meanings in every different of words and meanings in every different setting. setting. setting. >> So wait, explain the connection between >> So wait, explain the connection between >> So wait, explain the connection between what you do in comms now with have what you do in comms now with have what you do in comms now with have jumping around from culture to culture. jumping around from culture to culture. jumping around from culture to culture. You said you have a story about this. You said you have a story about this. You said you have a story about this. When you were When you were When you were >> I'll tell you the story. >> I'll tell you the story. >> I'll tell you the story. >> I'm in Norway and I'm just desperately >> I'm in Norway and I'm just desperately >> I'm in Norway and I'm just desperately trying to fit in and be a normal kid. trying to fit in and be a normal kid. trying to fit in and be a normal kid. When you when you get to um the public When you when you get to um the public When you when you get to um the public schools in Oslo, they have something schools in Oslo, they have something schools in Oslo, they have something called mutaken, which is like welcome called mutaken, which is like welcome called mutaken, which is like welcome class. So, it's like a transition class. So, it's like a transition class. So, it's like a transition halfway house for immigrants who can't halfway house for immigrants who can't halfway house for immigrants who can't speak Norwegian. And once they think speak Norwegian. And once they think speak Norwegian. And once they think you're ready enough, they transition you you're ready enough, they transition you you're ready enough, they transition you out. So, I'm in this classroom and it's out. So, I'm in this classroom and it's out. So, I'm in this classroom and it's uh like October and I'm trying to fit uh like October and I'm trying to fit uh like October and I'm trying to fit in. We had talked about Halloween. in. We had talked about Halloween. in. We had talked about Halloween. Halloween was coming up and in the US Halloween was coming up and in the US Halloween was coming up and in the US you wear your costume to school and you you wear your costume to school and you you wear your costume to school and you have a little parade and it's awesome. have a little parade and it's awesome. have a little parade and it's awesome. In Norway they knew what this was. So I In Norway they knew what this was. So I In Norway they knew what this was. So I show up to school in a full body rabbit show up to school in a full body rabbit show up to school in a full body rabbit costume and I mean it's got the gloves. costume and I mean it's got the gloves. costume and I mean it's got the gloves. It's got a tail like everything and It's got a tail like everything and It's got a tail like everything and nobody else is wearing any costume nobody else is wearing any costume nobody else is wearing any costume whatsoever. So I'm the new It's like the whatsoever. So I'm the new It's like the whatsoever. So I'm the new It's like the only thing worse than my normal clothes only thing worse than my normal clothes only thing worse than my normal clothes was a full body rabbit costume. I sat was a full body rabbit costume. I sat was a full body rabbit costume. I sat there, you know, I had to hold my there, you know, I had to hold my there, you know, I had to hold my pencils like this like the whole day in pencils like this like the whole day in pencils like this like the whole day in class. And it just turned out that it class. And it just turned out that it class. And it just turned out that it was not customary to wear these things was not customary to wear these things was not customary to wear these things to school. So, how would I have known to school. So, how would I have known to school. So, how would I have known that from any of the conversations that that from any of the conversations that that from any of the conversations that I had had where people knew the date? I I had had where people knew the date? I I had had where people knew the date? I thought we were all on the same page, thought we were all on the same page, thought we were all on the same page, guys. Like, it's October 31st. We talked guys. Like, it's October 31st. We talked guys. Like, it's October 31st. We talked about this. And it just wasn't a thing about this. And it just wasn't a thing about this. And it just wasn't a thing you did at school. So, the the takeaway you did at school. So, the the takeaway you did at school. So, the the takeaway is that there's a lot that is unspoken. is that there's a lot that is unspoken. is that there's a lot that is unspoken. There's a lot of context that people There's a lot of context that people There's a lot of context that people just assume that you might have. And if just assume that you might have. And if just assume that you might have. And if you think you do and you actually don't, you think you do and you actually don't, you think you do and you actually don't, it will be exposed in sometimes very it will be exposed in sometimes very it will be exposed in sometimes very dramatic ways. dramatic ways. dramatic ways. >> Okay. So, let's like jump in what to >> Okay. So, let's like jump in what to >> Okay. So, let's like jump in what to exactly what you do today and why you exactly what you do today and why you exactly what you do today and why you think it is needed more than ever. If think it is needed more than ever. If think it is needed more than ever. If >> I walk up to you, I didn't know you at >> I walk up to you, I didn't know you at >> I walk up to you, I didn't know you at all. And I say, "Hey, nice to meet you, all. And I say, "Hey, nice to meet you, all. And I say, "Hey, nice to meet you, Lulu." What do you do? How do you Lulu." What do you do? How do you Lulu." What do you do? How do you describe what you do? describe what you do? describe what you do? >> What I describe is I help founders >> What I describe is I help founders >> What I describe is I help founders build a movement build a movement build a movement to help their companies succeed. to help their companies succeed. to help their companies succeed. If you are building like the seventh B2B If you are building like the seventh B2B If you are building like the seventh B2B SAS in a in a a pretty crowded category, SAS in a in a a pretty crowded category, SAS in a in a a pretty crowded category, I'm not sure that's the most relevant I'm not sure that's the most relevant I'm not sure that's the most relevant for you and it's not necessarily the for you and it's not necessarily the for you and it's not necessarily the thing that brings me joy. But if you are thing that brings me joy. But if you are thing that brings me joy. But if you are building something like we've talked building something like we've talked building something like we've talked about and that it's sort of easy to talk about and that it's sort of easy to talk about and that it's sort of easy to talk about because it's such a perfect case about because it's such a perfect case about because it's such a perfect case study from the past but we've talked study from the past but we've talked study from the past but we've talked about ramp or general matter or these about ramp or general matter or these about ramp or general matter or these you you need to build a movement of you you need to build a movement of you you need to build a movement of people to believe something people to believe something people to believe something counterintuitive because you are counterintuitive because you are counterintuitive because you are essentially creating something new that essentially creating something new that essentially creating something new that if it were obvious it would have been if it were obvious it would have been if it were obvious it would have been done by virtue of it not being done. you done by virtue of it not being done. you done by virtue of it not being done. you now have to break through all of the now have to break through all of the now have to break through all of the existing biases and rally people to you existing biases and rally people to you existing biases and rally people to you and these are people who have lots of and these are people who have lots of and these are people who have lots of great options that they have to say no great options that they have to say no great options that they have to say no to to come join you on this quest and to to come join you on this quest and to to come join you on this quest and that is building a movement. So explain that is building a movement. So explain that is building a movement. So explain the context of what was going on at the the context of what was going on at the the context of what was going on at the time in the country when you started time in the country when you started time in the country when you started working with Andre. working with Andre. working with Andre. >> I had accidentally sort of become the >> I had accidentally sort of become the >> I had accidentally sort of become the co-founder of a communications firm and co-founder of a communications firm and co-founder of a communications firm and I didn't know what comms was and I I didn't know what comms was and I I didn't know what comms was and I didn't know what PR was. didn't know what PR was. didn't know what PR was. >> Okay, you got to say more about that. If >> Okay, you got to say more about that. If >> Okay, you got to say more about that. If you don't know what comms and PR is, how you don't know what comms and PR is, how you don't know what comms and PR is, how do you accidentally become the do you accidentally become the do you accidentally become the co-founder of this? co-founder of this? co-founder of this? >> For grad school, I studied diplomacy >> For grad school, I studied diplomacy >> For grad school, I studied diplomacy within which I studied international within which I studied international within which I studied international security within which I studied security within which I studied security within which I studied counterinsurgency. So I really wanted to counterinsurgency. So I really wanted to counterinsurgency. So I really wanted to work in and for the government and and work in and for the government and and work in and for the government and and on security issues and I could not on security issues and I could not on security issues and I could not because I was not a citizen at the time. because I was not a citizen at the time. because I was not a citizen at the time. So it was difficult. So I ended up in So it was difficult. So I ended up in So it was difficult. So I ended up in Washington DC doing what felt like a Washington DC doing what felt like a Washington DC doing what felt like a pretty close thing which was political pretty close thing which was political pretty close thing which was political risk. I.e. if uh Google is entering into risk. I.e. if uh Google is entering into risk. I.e. if uh Google is entering into Egypt and there's a coup, what do you Egypt and there's a coup, what do you Egypt and there's a coup, what do you do? It's not a normal business do? It's not a normal business do? It's not a normal business situation. Or if Alibaba is having its situation. Or if Alibaba is having its situation. Or if Alibaba is having its biggest IPO in the US, um the things biggest IPO in the US, um the things biggest IPO in the US, um the things that they have to overcome are not just that they have to overcome are not just that they have to overcome are not just normal business things. there's like normal business things. there's like normal business things. there's like fears about China which to this day fears about China which to this day fears about China which to this day continue and many are warranted and um continue and many are warranted and um continue and many are warranted and um about data privacy and all these things. about data privacy and all these things. about data privacy and all these things. Anyway, Anyway, Anyway, I was working on political risk and I was working on political risk and I was working on political risk and ended up partnering with the man who was ended up partnering with the man who was ended up partnering with the man who was helping Jack Ma run their IPO and he was helping Jack Ma run their IPO and he was helping Jack Ma run their IPO and he was born and bred Texan, had worked in born and bred Texan, had worked in born and bred Texan, had worked in government, had now become um the head government, had now become um the head government, had now become um the head of corporate affairs for Alibaba. of corporate affairs for Alibaba. of corporate affairs for Alibaba. After the successful IPO, he decided to After the successful IPO, he decided to After the successful IPO, he decided to start a firm and he asked me to go and start a firm and he asked me to go and start a firm and he asked me to go and do it with him, Jim Wilkinson, one do it with him, Jim Wilkinson, one do it with him, Jim Wilkinson, one someone that I consider a great mentor someone that I consider a great mentor someone that I consider a great mentor and teacher, took a bet on me. Someone and teacher, took a bet on me. Someone and teacher, took a bet on me. Someone who has never done this before, and he who has never done this before, and he who has never done this before, and he said, "I think you can figure this out." said, "I think you can figure this out." said, "I think you can figure this out." I didn't know if I agreed, but I went I didn't know if I agreed, but I went I didn't know if I agreed, but I went with him. And so, here I was, the with him. And so, here I was, the with him. And so, here I was, the co-founder and COO of a comms firm, and co-founder and COO of a comms firm, and co-founder and COO of a comms firm, and I was googling like, "What is PR? I was googling like, "What is PR? I was googling like, "What is PR? [laughter] What is communications? What [laughter] What is communications? What [laughter] What is communications? What is this?" And I would learn essentially is this?" And I would learn essentially is this?" And I would learn essentially by embarrassing myself. We would go into by embarrassing myself. We would go into by embarrassing myself. We would go into meetings and again credit to Jim for meetings and again credit to Jim for meetings and again credit to Jim for just throwing me into these situations, just throwing me into these situations, just throwing me into these situations, but we would go into meetings with but we would go into meetings with but we would go into meetings with leaders of like Citadel and major leaders of like Citadel and major leaders of like Citadel and major serious operations. S&P Global, I would serious operations. S&P Global, I would serious operations. S&P Global, I would say things, sometimes they landed, other say things, sometimes they landed, other say things, sometimes they landed, other times somebody would pull me aside at times somebody would pull me aside at times somebody would pull me aside at the end of the meeting and be like, you the end of the meeting and be like, you the end of the meeting and be like, you know, maybe fewer like Power Rangers know, maybe fewer like Power Rangers know, maybe fewer like Power Rangers references next time. May uh we had a references next time. May uh we had a references next time. May uh we had a meeting with GAP Inc. where um it was meeting with GAP Inc. where um it was meeting with GAP Inc. where um it was very clear that I didn't know what very clear that I didn't know what very clear that I didn't know what corporate communications was. I thought corporate communications was. I thought corporate communications was. I thought it was like put on a sale, you know, it was like put on a sale, you know, it was like put on a sale, you know, summer sale and just learned the hard summer sale and just learned the hard summer sale and just learned the hard way by doing way by doing way by doing >> your clients in this case, they wanted >> your clients in this case, they wanted >> your clients in this case, they wanted like traditional PR. Correct. like traditional PR. Correct. like traditional PR. Correct. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Which is not what you do at all today. >> Which is not what you do at all today. >> Which is not what you do at all today. >> Currently, it's not what I do. When I >> Currently, it's not what I do. When I >> Currently, it's not what I do. When I was learning traditional comms, it was was learning traditional comms, it was was learning traditional comms, it was very much wipe on, wipe off. What am I very much wipe on, wipe off. What am I very much wipe on, wipe off. What am I doing here? And I didn't have any doing here? And I didn't have any doing here? And I didn't have any credentials, you know, like I'm nobody. credentials, you know, like I'm nobody. credentials, you know, like I'm nobody. Nobody would answer my emails. People Nobody would answer my emails. People Nobody would answer my emails. People didn't want to deal with me. Reporters didn't want to deal with me. Reporters didn't want to deal with me. Reporters didn't take me seriously as they didn't take me seriously as they didn't take me seriously as they probably should not have. So all probably should not have. So all probably should not have. So all understandable. understandable. understandable. But then I get to know Matt Steckman, But then I get to know Matt Steckman, But then I get to know Matt Steckman, now president of Andre, and Trey, now president of Andre, and Trey, now president of Andre, and Trey, chairman of Andre. We were all in DC at chairman of Andre. We were all in DC at chairman of Andre. We were all in DC at the time. and uh Trey recommended me to the time. and uh Trey recommended me to the time. and uh Trey recommended me to the team to handle their comps and they the team to handle their comps and they the team to handle their comps and they had talked to a bunch of people. had talked to a bunch of people. had talked to a bunch of people. >> What was the state of their business >> What was the state of their business >> What was the state of their business when this is happening? when this is happening? when this is happening? >> It was pretty early. It was in the first >> It was pretty early. It was in the first >> It was pretty early. It was in the first year of the company. Our company was year of the company. Our company was year of the company. Our company was founded around the same time as them. Of founded around the same time as them. Of founded around the same time as them. Of course, our PR firm didn't become course, our PR firm didn't become course, our PR firm didn't become Andreal, but it was around the same age Andreal, but it was around the same age Andreal, but it was around the same age at that point. And they were in the at that point. And they were in the at that point. And they were in the process of defining what the company process of defining what the company process of defining what the company was. They had actually been in semi- was. They had actually been in semi- was. They had actually been in semi- stealth the whole time where there was stealth the whole time where there was stealth the whole time where there was the website and the website provided the website and the website provided the website and the website provided just enough fodder for all these just enough fodder for all these just enough fodder for all these conspiracy theories about what what is conspiracy theories about what what is conspiracy theories about what what is Palmer doing but not enough information. Palmer doing but not enough information. Palmer doing but not enough information. It wasn't like today where you do your It wasn't like today where you do your It wasn't like today where you do your launch moment and you have your launch moment and you have your launch moment and you have your cinematic launch video and it was just cinematic launch video and it was just cinematic launch video and it was just like the company existed and there was like the company existed and there was like the company existed and there was rumors and gossip about it but not fully rumors and gossip about it but not fully rumors and gossip about it but not fully defined and they to their credit defined and they to their credit defined and they to their credit recognized that it was time to really recognized that it was time to really recognized that it was time to really define it. And you would compare their define it. And you would compare their define it. And you would compare their idea at this time in history to a idea at this time in history to a idea at this time in history to a counterinsurgency. Correct. counterinsurgency. Correct. counterinsurgency. Correct. >> I believe that they were very much like >> I believe that they were very much like >> I believe that they were very much like an insurgent. Okay. They were going an insurgent. Okay. They were going an insurgent. Okay. They were going >> Yeah. They had a smaller team than the >> Yeah. They had a smaller team than the >> Yeah. They had a smaller team than the people that they were up against. Like people that they were up against. Like people that they were up against. Like imagine Boeing or Rathon. Um they were imagine Boeing or Rathon. Um they were imagine Boeing or Rathon. Um they were going against the grain of their going against the grain of their going against the grain of their community. So especially in Silicon community. So especially in Silicon community. So especially in Silicon Valley, it was super duper not cool to Valley, it was super duper not cool to Valley, it was super duper not cool to work with the government. that that's work with the government. that that's work with the government. that that's when Google had employees walking out when Google had employees walking out when Google had employees walking out protesting any involvement in Project protesting any involvement in Project protesting any involvement in Project Maven with the DoD and they didn't have Maven with the DoD and they didn't have Maven with the DoD and they didn't have access to mainstream information access to mainstream information access to mainstream information propagation networks. For example, the propagation networks. For example, the propagation networks. For example, the media just hated Palmer. This was when media just hated Palmer. This was when media just hated Palmer. This was when he was kind of persona non grata in tech he was kind of persona non grata in tech he was kind of persona non grata in tech and mainstream for supporting Trump and and mainstream for supporting Trump and and mainstream for supporting Trump and not supporting Hillary while he was at not supporting Hillary while he was at not supporting Hillary while he was at Facebook. So it was pretty soon after he Facebook. So it was pretty soon after he Facebook. So it was pretty soon after he was pushed out, fired for political was pushed out, fired for political was pushed out, fired for political beliefs at Facebook, which is kind of beliefs at Facebook, which is kind of beliefs at Facebook, which is kind of mind-blowing to think today, but at the mind-blowing to think today, but at the mind-blowing to think today, but at the time it was like, of course he should time it was like, of course he should time it was like, of course he should be, of course he should be a pariah. be, of course he should be a pariah. be, of course he should be a pariah. This is this is unacceptable for someone This is this is unacceptable for someone This is this is unacceptable for someone to hold these political beliefs. And so to hold these political beliefs. And so to hold these political beliefs. And so this was the situation that they were this was the situation that they were this was the situation that they were in. And they rightfully decided that in. And they rightfully decided that in. And they rightfully decided that they were going to take matters into they were going to take matters into they were going to take matters into their own hands and create their own their own hands and create their own their own hands and create their own stories and create their own ways to get stories and create their own ways to get stories and create their own ways to get it out there. So they took a massive it out there. So they took a massive it out there. So they took a massive bet on me bet on me bet on me really changed my life because Palmer really changed my life because Palmer really changed my life because Palmer sometimes very kindly is like you helped sometimes very kindly is like you helped sometimes very kindly is like you helped us with comms or like actually he helped us with comms or like actually he helped us with comms or like actually he helped me with comms. You know I I me with comms. You know I I me with comms. You know I I learned how to do comms by working with learned how to do comms by working with learned how to do comms by working with Palmer and Trey and Brian and Matt. Palmer and Trey and Brian and Matt. Palmer and Trey and Brian and Matt. >> I have a question for you. The way >> I have a question for you. The way >> I have a question for you. The way Palmer is now where like he takes the Palmer is now where like he takes the Palmer is now where like he takes the fight to them. He goes direct. I know fight to them. He goes direct. I know fight to them. He goes direct. I know that's part of your manifesto. Was he that's part of your manifesto. Was he that's part of your manifesto. Was he like that back then? like that back then? like that back then? >> He still had that same fighting spirit. >> He still had that same fighting spirit. >> He still had that same fighting spirit. Now, the environment was different and Now, the environment was different and Now, the environment was different and so it would land differently and his so it would land differently and his so it would land differently and his audience was a little bit different. So, audience was a little bit different. So, audience was a little bit different. So, it would have looked different on the it would have looked different on the it would have looked different on the surface, but I think the the fighting surface, but I think the the fighting surface, but I think the the fighting spirit and the instinct was there. And spirit and the instinct was there. And spirit and the instinct was there. And that's why I had this wonderful that's why I had this wonderful that's why I had this wonderful opportunity to work with these great opportunity to work with these great opportunity to work with these great guys at a time when I was objectively guys at a time when I was objectively guys at a time when I was objectively really underqualified. They could have really underqualified. They could have really underqualified. They could have gotten, you know, best of the best. They gotten, you know, best of the best. They gotten, you know, best of the best. They could have gotten anybody. Um, and I could have gotten anybody. Um, and I could have gotten anybody. Um, and I will always be so grateful. This is why will always be so grateful. This is why will always be so grateful. This is why I I talk all the time about being so I I talk all the time about being so I I talk all the time about being so grateful to these guys. It's like you grateful to these guys. It's like you grateful to these guys. It's like you don't understand. People People don't don't understand. People People don't don't understand. People People don't understand. They enabled me to learn how understand. They enabled me to learn how understand. They enabled me to learn how to do comms. I would not be in this to do comms. I would not be in this to do comms. I would not be in this position. I would be like at a regular position. I would be like at a regular position. I would be like at a regular PR agency doing regular PR agency things PR agency doing regular PR agency things PR agency doing regular PR agency things if it hadn't been if it hadn't been if it hadn't been >> believe that though. I definitely >> believe that though. I definitely >> believe that though. I definitely believe that the influence and your believe that the influence and your believe that the influence and your appreciation for them, but I I've known appreciation for them, but I I've known appreciation for them, but I I've known you too much. Your personality type you too much. Your personality type you too much. Your personality type would not your personality would not would not your personality would not would not your personality would not allow you to be a normal person working allow you to be a normal person working allow you to be a normal person working in a normal company. Even the way the in a normal company. Even the way the in a normal company. Even the way the structure of your company is incredibly structure of your company is incredibly structure of your company is incredibly rare. I I actually don't believe that rare. I I actually don't believe that rare. I I actually don't believe that you believe that. you believe that. you believe that. >> Yeah. I don't know what I would be >> Yeah. I don't know what I would be >> Yeah. I don't know what I would be doing. doing. doing. >> Maybe I would have ended up here by some >> Maybe I would have ended up here by some >> Maybe I would have ended up here by some other means. But it other means. But it other means. But it >> doesn't mean you would have found this >> doesn't mean you would have found this >> doesn't mean you would have found this path, but you would have. You're too path, but you would have. You're too path, but you would have. You're too singular of an individual. singular of an individual. singular of an individual. >> Couldn't ended up somewhere else. I >> Couldn't ended up somewhere else. I >> Couldn't ended up somewhere else. I don't know where don't know where don't know where >> I don't know where. But that is where um >> I don't know where. But that is where um >> I don't know where. But that is where um the lessons of counterinsurgency and the lessons of counterinsurgency and the lessons of counterinsurgency and accepting that you don't have the accepting that you don't have the accepting that you don't have the mainstream information networks and that mainstream information networks and that mainstream information networks and that you don't have a lot of people already you don't have a lot of people already you don't have a lot of people already on your side and just not relying on on your side and just not relying on on your side and just not relying on those and building your own came into those and building your own came into those and building your own came into play. So we play. So we play. So we >> So this is very like you know I think >> So this is very like you know I think >> So this is very like you know I think this is like the playbook for startups, this is like the playbook for startups, this is like the playbook for startups, right? So explain right? So explain right? So explain >> block and pose. There [laughter] you go. >> block and pose. There [laughter] you go. >> block and pose. There [laughter] you go. Let's go. So explain I love this idea of Let's go. So explain I love this idea of Let's go. So explain I love this idea of yours like explain the similarities yours like explain the similarities yours like explain the similarities between somebody that has an idea to between somebody that has an idea to between somebody that has an idea to start a company or a movement which I start a company or a movement which I start a company or a movement which I love the the phrase you use and a love the the phrase you use and a love the the phrase you use and a counterinsurgent and what they have in counterinsurgent and what they have in counterinsurgent and what they have in common. common. common. >> When I was studying counterinsurgency >> When I was studying counterinsurgency >> When I was studying counterinsurgency they made us pretend to be a terrorist they made us pretend to be a terrorist they made us pretend to be a terrorist group cuz the best way to study the group cuz the best way to study the group cuz the best way to study the thing that you're fighting is to thing that you're fighting is to thing that you're fighting is to understand the thing that you're understand the thing that you're understand the thing that you're fighting. And so they had us create fighting. And so they had us create fighting. And so they had us create these mock terrorist groups and you had these mock terrorist groups and you had these mock terrorist groups and you had to come up with your mission and vision. to come up with your mission and vision. to come up with your mission and vision. You had to create your manifesto. We can You had to create your manifesto. We can You had to create your manifesto. We can talk about the importance of a good talk about the importance of a good talk about the importance of a good manifesto. This is when I got really manifesto. This is when I got really manifesto. This is when I got really manifesto pilled. I think we're maybe manifesto pilled. I think we're maybe manifesto pilled. I think we're maybe now overdoing it. Maybe it's part of now overdoing it. Maybe it's part of now overdoing it. Maybe it's part of that is my fault, but the value of a that is my fault, but the value of a that is my fault, but the value of a good manifesto good manifesto good manifesto cannot be overstated. So cannot be overstated. So cannot be overstated. So >> what makes a good manifesto? >> what makes a good manifesto? >> what makes a good manifesto? A good manifesto looks at the world and A good manifesto looks at the world and A good manifesto looks at the world and says, says, says, "The people that we're fighting or "The people that we're fighting or "The people that we're fighting or trying to replace, they have more trying to replace, they have more trying to replace, they have more numbers than us. They have more money numbers than us. They have more money numbers than us. They have more money than us. They have more force than us. than us. They have more force than us. than us. They have more force than us. And today, they have more legitimacy And today, they have more legitimacy And today, they have more legitimacy than us. But we are going to beat all of than us. But we are going to beat all of than us. But we are going to beat all of that with more intensity." that with more intensity." that with more intensity." There's a quote that's maybe apocryphal There's a quote that's maybe apocryphal There's a quote that's maybe apocryphal that says, "One man plus the truth is a that says, "One man plus the truth is a that says, "One man plus the truth is a majority." And I think that applies to majority." And I think that applies to majority." And I think that applies to insurgent movements where a small number insurgent movements where a small number insurgent movements where a small number of people who are willing to die for the of people who are willing to die for the of people who are willing to die for the cause in this case literally and have cause in this case literally and have cause in this case literally and have that intensity intensity can overcome that intensity intensity can overcome that intensity intensity can overcome everything. everything. everything. There's no amount of money or incumbency There's no amount of money or incumbency There's no amount of money or incumbency that can overcome somebody who wants it that can overcome somebody who wants it that can overcome somebody who wants it so much more. so much more. so much more. The purpose of a manifesto The purpose of a manifesto The purpose of a manifesto is to make concrete that intensity is to make concrete that intensity is to make concrete that intensity and paint for people a vision of what and paint for people a vision of what and paint for people a vision of what the world could be such that when they the world could be such that when they the world could be such that when they see it, they are willing to leave their see it, they are willing to leave their see it, they are willing to leave their jobs, families, security, jobs, families, security, jobs, families, security, everything to go and make that happen. everything to go and make that happen. everything to go and make that happen. And a good manifesto is once you see it, And a good manifesto is once you see it, And a good manifesto is once you see it, you can't get it out of your head. you you can't get it out of your head. you you can't get it out of your head. you have to go do it. So the manifesto is have to go do it. So the manifesto is have to go do it. So the manifesto is the magnet. the magnet. the magnet. And if you don't have that, you have no And if you don't have that, you have no And if you don't have that, you have no right to go up to someone and say, right to go up to someone and say, right to go up to someone and say, "Leave your comfortable job and leave "Leave your comfortable job and leave "Leave your comfortable job and leave your beautiful family and come with me your beautiful family and come with me your beautiful family and come with me on what is probably a death mission." on what is probably a death mission." on what is probably a death mission." Who do you think you are? You have no Who do you think you are? You have no Who do you think you are? You have no right unless you have articulated that. right unless you have articulated that. right unless you have articulated that. >> I want to tell you about the presenting >> I want to tell you about the presenting >> I want to tell you about the presenting sponsor of this podcast, RAMP. I have sponsor of this podcast, RAMP. I have sponsor of this podcast, RAMP. I have been reading a lot about SpaceX lately. been reading a lot about SpaceX lately. been reading a lot about SpaceX lately. SpaceX is one of the most valuable SpaceX is one of the most valuable SpaceX is one of the most valuable businesses in the world and one of the businesses in the world and one of the businesses in the world and one of the main themes in the history of SpaceX is main themes in the history of SpaceX is main themes in the history of SpaceX is constantly attacking and questioning constantly attacking and questioning constantly attacking and questioning your cost. Ramp helps many of the most your cost. Ramp helps many of the most your cost. Ramp helps many of the most innovative businesses in the world do innovative businesses in the world do innovative businesses in the world do exactly that. The median company running exactly that. The median company running exactly that. The median company running on ramp cuts their expenses by 5%. And on ramp cuts their expenses by 5%. And on ramp cuts their expenses by 5%. And one thing SpaceX has demonstrated is one thing SpaceX has demonstrated is one thing SpaceX has demonstrated is that a religious dedication to that a religious dedication to that a religious dedication to controlling costs can help actually controlling costs can help actually controlling costs can help actually increase revenue because you can pursue increase revenue because you can pursue increase revenue because you can pursue opportunities you couldn't otherwise. opportunities you couldn't otherwise. opportunities you couldn't otherwise. And we see that in the ramp data too. And we see that in the ramp data too. And we see that in the ramp data too. The median company running on ramp also The median company running on ramp also The median company running on ramp also grows their revenue by 16%. So when grows their revenue by 16%. So when grows their revenue by 16%. So when you're running your business on ramp and you're running your business on ramp and you're running your business on ramp and your competitors are not, you have a your competitors are not, you have a your competitors are not, you have a massive competitive advantage that massive competitive advantage that massive competitive advantage that compounds over time. Ramp is the only compounds over time. Ramp is the only compounds over time. Ramp is the only platform designed to make your finance platform designed to make your finance platform designed to make your finance team faster and happier. Many of the top team faster and happier. Many of the top team faster and happier. Many of the top founders and CEOs I know run [music] founders and CEOs I know run [music] founders and CEOs I know run [music] their business on RAMP. I run my their business on RAMP. I run my their business on RAMP. I run my business on RAMP and you should too. Go business on RAMP and you should too. Go business on RAMP and you should too. Go to ramp.com to learn how they can help to ramp.com to learn how they can help to ramp.com to learn how they can help your business save time, save money, and your business save time, save money, and your business save time, save money, and grow revenue. That is ramp.com. grow revenue. That is ramp.com. grow revenue. That is ramp.com. So you've written a great manifesto. So you've written a great manifesto. So you've written a great manifesto. It's called Go Direct. It's called Go Direct. It's called Go Direct. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Okay. Can you explain the ideas that are >> Okay. Can you explain the ideas that are >> Okay. Can you explain the ideas that are contained in your manifesto and why you contained in your manifesto and why you contained in your manifesto and why you think it's so important for founders think it's so important for founders think it's so important for founders today to do this? today to do this? today to do this? >> I remember trying to name the manifesto. >> I remember trying to name the manifesto. >> I remember trying to name the manifesto. Spent like days and days and then we Spent like days and days and then we Spent like days and days and then we ended up with go direct the manifesto. ended up with go direct the manifesto. ended up with go direct the manifesto. >> It was one of these things that you toil >> It was one of these things that you toil >> It was one of these things that you toil over for weeks maybe months and then end over for weeks maybe months and then end over for weeks maybe months and then end up writing it in like two hours. The key up writing it in like two hours. The key up writing it in like two hours. The key idea in the manifesto idea in the manifesto idea in the manifesto is that traditional PR as we know it is is that traditional PR as we know it is is that traditional PR as we know it is dead. Maybe you can see the body, but it dead. Maybe you can see the body, but it dead. Maybe you can see the body, but it doesn't have a pulse. doesn't have a pulse. doesn't have a pulse. And it's a good thing because And it's a good thing because And it's a good thing because traditional PR meant that you would have traditional PR meant that you would have traditional PR meant that you would have to filter your message through somebody to filter your message through somebody to filter your message through somebody else's prism. You would have to be else's prism. You would have to be else's prism. You would have to be dependent on somebody else to have the dependent on somebody else to have the dependent on somebody else to have the goodwill and the alignment and the means goodwill and the alignment and the means goodwill and the alignment and the means to faithfully portray to the world what to faithfully portray to the world what to faithfully portray to the world what you want to say. you want to say. you want to say. That actually very rarely happens. If That actually very rarely happens. If That actually very rarely happens. If you're doing something pretty you're doing something pretty you're doing something pretty uncontroversial and well understood, uncontroversial and well understood, uncontroversial and well understood, that can go fairly smoothly because it that can go fairly smoothly because it that can go fairly smoothly because it won't be distorted that much. But if won't be distorted that much. But if won't be distorted that much. But if you're doing something you're doing something you're doing something unconventional, far outside the unconventional, far outside the unconventional, far outside the mainstream, unpopular, mainstream, unpopular, mainstream, unpopular, then you do not want this to be filtered then you do not want this to be filtered then you do not want this to be filtered through somebody else's prism. And the through somebody else's prism. And the through somebody else's prism. And the second thing is I believe that there's a second thing is I believe that there's a second thing is I believe that there's a lot of virtue in being self-reliant for lot of virtue in being self-reliant for lot of virtue in being self-reliant for its own sake. For its own sake, even if its own sake. For its own sake, even if its own sake. For its own sake, even if nothing is on the line, we are sovereign nothing is on the line, we are sovereign nothing is on the line, we are sovereign human beings. We should be in control of human beings. We should be in control of human beings. We should be in control of our destinies. We should be in control our destinies. We should be in control our destinies. We should be in control of our narrative destinies and the of our narrative destinies and the of our narrative destinies and the stories that help us achieve the stories that help us achieve the stories that help us achieve the destiny. This is narrative sovereignty. destiny. This is narrative sovereignty. destiny. This is narrative sovereignty. You never just want to be depending on You never just want to be depending on You never just want to be depending on someone else. And so the manifesto was a someone else. And so the manifesto was a someone else. And so the manifesto was a way of giving founders permission and way of giving founders permission and way of giving founders permission and exhortation exhortation exhortation that nobody's going to do this for you. that nobody's going to do this for you. that nobody's going to do this for you. And that's good. It is in some way And that's good. It is in some way And that's good. It is in some way scary, but it is in some way liberating scary, but it is in some way liberating scary, but it is in some way liberating because you're the guy. There's no other because you're the guy. There's no other because you're the guy. There's no other guy who's going to go do this for you. guy who's going to go do this for you. guy who's going to go do this for you. And the same amount of seriousness that And the same amount of seriousness that And the same amount of seriousness that you apply to the product or the code or you apply to the product or the code or you apply to the product or the code or the hiring, you have to be applying to the hiring, you have to be applying to the hiring, you have to be applying to your story and you're the only person your story and you're the only person your story and you're the only person who can say it. You're the only person who can say it. You're the only person who can say it. You're the only person who can do it that effectively because who can do it that effectively because who can do it that effectively because you have at the beginning especially not you have at the beginning especially not you have at the beginning especially not a lot of evidence to back you up. You a lot of evidence to back you up. You a lot of evidence to back you up. You have your word and you're going to back have your word and you're going to back have your word and you're going to back it up with your personal reputation, it up with your personal reputation, it up with your personal reputation, right? like the greatest founders that right? like the greatest founders that right? like the greatest founders that we know go to the people that they know we know go to the people that they know we know go to the people that they know and say, "I know this sounds crazy. Hear and say, "I know this sounds crazy. Hear and say, "I know this sounds crazy. Hear me out. I'm gonna do this. We're going me out. I'm gonna do this. We're going me out. I'm gonna do this. We're going to do this together." And the other to do this together." And the other to do this together." And the other person's like, "All right. Okay, David person's like, "All right. Okay, David person's like, "All right. Okay, David Sra, Sra, Sra, >> this seems okay because you're doing it >> this seems okay because you're doing it >> this seems okay because you're doing it and I and I trust you." So, there's just and I and I trust you." So, there's just and I and I trust you." So, there's just no other way around it. no other way around it. no other way around it. >> So, when I read your manifesto, one >> So, when I read your manifesto, one >> So, when I read your manifesto, one thing I love about the you and this is thing I love about the you and this is thing I love about the you and this is this idea that um it's a very old idea. this idea that um it's a very old idea. this idea that um it's a very old idea. like you bring you take these ideas from like you bring you take these ideas from like you bring you take these ideas from history and from the past history and from the past history and from the past >> and so like when I when I'm reading your >> and so like when I when I'm reading your >> and so like when I when I'm reading your manifesto on your website I'm like oh manifesto on your website I'm like oh manifesto on your website I'm like oh this is like Julius Caesar this is like this is like Julius Caesar this is like this is like Julius Caesar this is like Napoleon this is like Churchill this is Napoleon this is like Churchill this is Napoleon this is like Churchill this is like Abraham Lincoln like Abraham Lincoln like Abraham Lincoln >> you're just applying it to in many cases >> you're just applying it to in many cases >> you're just applying it to in many cases like the the legendary tech founders of like the the legendary tech founders of like the the legendary tech founders of today today today >> yeah the reason the company is called >> yeah the reason the company is called >> yeah the reason the company is called Rostra is because Rostra was the Rostra is because Rostra was the Rostra is because Rostra was the speakers platform in Rome from which speakers platform in Rome from which speakers platform in Rome from which place history was changed and there were place history was changed and there were place history was changed and there were many times when the mood in the city was many times when the mood in the city was many times when the mood in the city was A somebody hauled themselves up there A somebody hauled themselves up there A somebody hauled themselves up there and stood to face the crowd and stood to face the crowd and stood to face the crowd [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] and then they stepped down and the mood and then they stepped down and the mood and then they stepped down and the mood was B. And this happened after Caesar's was B. And this happened after Caesar's was B. And this happened after Caesar's murder. You know, the city completely murder. You know, the city completely murder. You know, the city completely turned in its perception of what had turned in its perception of what had turned in its perception of what had just happened and who was the good guy just happened and who was the good guy just happened and who was the good guy and who was the bad guy and who had and who was the bad guy and who had and who was the bad guy and who had legitimacy because of words spoken from legitimacy because of words spoken from legitimacy because of words spoken from the rostra. So, I think that we have the rostra. So, I think that we have the rostra. So, I think that we have figured out how to relate to and move figured out how to relate to and move figured out how to relate to and move and rally and gather other people a long and rally and gather other people a long and rally and gather other people a long time ago. And some of that has some of time ago. And some of that has some of time ago. And some of that has some of that art has been lost um in recent that art has been lost um in recent that art has been lost um in recent times because we're just like distracted times because we're just like distracted times because we're just like distracted and our attention spans are shot. and our attention spans are shot. and our attention spans are shot. But these are all things that we figured But these are all things that we figured But these are all things that we figured out a long time ago. out a long time ago. out a long time ago. >> Okay. So, let's go back to where we were >> Okay. So, let's go back to where we were >> Okay. So, let's go back to where we were earlier. You started working with Andre. earlier. You started working with Andre. earlier. You started working with Andre. This idea of go direct comes after your This idea of go direct comes after your This idea of go direct comes after your experience with them. Correct. experience with them. Correct. experience with them. Correct. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Okay. How did that your work you're >> Okay. How did that your work you're >> Okay. How did that your work you're doing with Andrew and Palmer shape this doing with Andrew and Palmer shape this doing with Andrew and Palmer shape this this manifesto that's going to come a this manifesto that's going to come a this manifesto that's going to come a few years later? few years later? few years later? >> This is necessity is the mother of >> This is necessity is the mother of >> This is necessity is the mother of invention. Okay. invention. Okay. invention. Okay. >> And a lot of companies now that consider >> And a lot of companies now that consider >> And a lot of companies now that consider going direct as a default. I believe going direct as a default. I believe going direct as a default. I believe have Endril and Palmer and Matt Brian have Endril and Palmer and Matt Brian have Endril and Palmer and Matt Brian and Trey to thank for this because going and Trey to thank for this because going and Trey to thank for this because going not direct was actually just not an not direct was actually just not an not direct was actually just not an option. you're gonna call some option. you're gonna call some option. you're gonna call some mainstream reporter and say, "Hey, the mainstream reporter and say, "Hey, the mainstream reporter and say, "Hey, the guy who got fired from Facebook for guy who got fired from Facebook for guy who got fired from Facebook for supporting Trump that you hate uh is supporting Trump that you hate uh is supporting Trump that you hate uh is doing a thing and you should hear him doing a thing and you should hear him doing a thing and you should hear him out." Just very hard to do. There were a out." Just very hard to do. There were a out." Just very hard to do. There were a really small number of reporters who really small number of reporters who really small number of reporters who were fair during that time that I were fair during that time that I were fair during that time that I remember, but it it just wasn't the way. remember, but it it just wasn't the way. remember, but it it just wasn't the way. And so, we were not going the And so, we were not going the And so, we were not going the traditional path of Techrunch or what traditional path of Techrunch or what traditional path of Techrunch or what Palmer calls trying to get the coolest Palmer calls trying to get the coolest Palmer calls trying to get the coolest startup award at one of these startup award at one of these startup award at one of these conferences. We were going directly to conferences. We were going directly to conferences. We were going directly to Quantico, speaking to the Marines there. Quantico, speaking to the Marines there. Quantico, speaking to the Marines there. Um, Palmer went to Camp Pendleton. Um, Um, Palmer went to Camp Pendleton. Um, Um, Palmer went to Camp Pendleton. Um, going to speak at National Defense going to speak at National Defense going to speak at National Defense University, going to speak to the CIA, University, going to speak to the CIA, University, going to speak to the CIA, just going to the people directly, like just going to the people directly, like just going to the people directly, like literally walking into their building literally walking into their building literally walking into their building and speaking to them and then showing and speaking to them and then showing and speaking to them and then showing them the thing. And then same for them the thing. And then same for them the thing. And then same for recruiting. Instead of letting uh some recruiting. Instead of letting uh some recruiting. Instead of letting uh some hostile outlet hostile outlet hostile outlet >> Yeah. You said this before, like, okay, >> Yeah. You said this before, like, okay, >> Yeah. You said this before, like, okay, you go to whatever, I'm just going to you go to whatever, I'm just going to you go to whatever, I'm just going to make it up, New York Times to get a make it up, New York Times to get a make it up, New York Times to get a message out to get to the actual like message out to get to the actual like message out to get to the actual like 200 people you want to reach. You're 200 people you want to reach. You're 200 people you want to reach. You're just assuming, okay, maybe 500,000 just assuming, okay, maybe 500,000 just assuming, okay, maybe 500,000 people read the story and hopefully the people read the story and hopefully the people read the story and hopefully the 200 people you want to reach that 200 people you want to reach that 200 people you want to reach that actually matter to what you're trying to actually matter to what you're trying to actually matter to what you're trying to the impact you're trying to have in the the impact you're trying to have in the the impact you're trying to have in the world, get to that. Like, well, let's world, get to that. Like, well, let's world, get to that. Like, well, let's just cut that. Just go directly to them. just cut that. Just go directly to them. just cut that. Just go directly to them. >> Just tell them. >> Just tell them. >> Just tell them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's it's like you and I both care about >> It's it's like you and I both care about >> It's it's like you and I both care about a really shockingly small number of a really shockingly small number of a really shockingly small number of people's opinions, and these are people people's opinions, and these are people people's opinions, and these are people that in our case are like a text message that in our case are like a text message that in our case are like a text message away. Why would you go to somebody else away. Why would you go to somebody else away. Why would you go to somebody else as a supplicant asking them to carry the as a supplicant asking them to carry the as a supplicant asking them to carry the message for you so that they can filter message for you so that they can filter message for you so that they can filter through their worldview and then their through their worldview and then their through their worldview and then their editor and then put it into their editor and then put it into their editor and then put it into their publication and then hope that that publication and then hope that that publication and then hope that that spray and prey reaches some of the spray and prey reaches some of the spray and prey reaches some of the people that you care about. Also, by the people that you care about. Also, by the people that you care about. Also, by the way, you lose we were talking earlier way, you lose we were talking earlier way, you lose we were talking earlier about intensity and the power of about intensity and the power of about intensity and the power of intensity to overcome a lot of other intensity to overcome a lot of other intensity to overcome a lot of other things. You lose the intensity along the things. You lose the intensity along the things. You lose the intensity along the way because it becomes watered down. So way because it becomes watered down. So way because it becomes watered down. So the founder relays the message to uh the founder relays the message to uh the founder relays the message to uh their PR person who then puts it into their PR person who then puts it into their PR person who then puts it into their words or tries to remember it and their words or tries to remember it and their words or tries to remember it and then relays it to a reporter who then then relays it to a reporter who then then relays it to a reporter who then pitches their editor and then they write pitches their editor and then they write pitches their editor and then they write it and then the editor weighs in and it and then the editor weighs in and it and then the editor weighs in and then it goes out and then whoever it's then it goes out and then whoever it's then it goes out and then whoever it's reaching is trying to interpret it. This reaching is trying to interpret it. This reaching is trying to interpret it. This is why in in AI right now it's so stark. is why in in AI right now it's so stark. is why in in AI right now it's so stark. You've got some AI companies who do not You've got some AI companies who do not You've got some AI companies who do not need a mainstream audience because all need a mainstream audience because all need a mainstream audience because all they care about is recruiting they care about is recruiting they care about is recruiting five top ML engineers and they actually five top ML engineers and they actually five top ML engineers and they actually know who they are know who they are know who they are and they're going to go what to and they're going to go what to and they're going to go what to >> Good Morning America. [laughter] >> Good Morning America. [laughter] >> Good Morning America. [laughter] >> Good Morning America. The Kelly Ripa >> Good Morning America. The Kelly Ripa >> Good Morning America. The Kelly Ripa show. show. show. >> Yeah. Like what are you doing >> Yeah. Like what are you doing >> Yeah. Like what are you doing >> Oprah? What? and and and blast out to >> Oprah? What? and and and blast out to >> Oprah? What? and and and blast out to some big number of who knows who these some big number of who knows who these some big number of who knows who these people are as opposed to people are as opposed to people are as opposed to a podcast with a lot fewer listeners. a podcast with a lot fewer listeners. a podcast with a lot fewer listeners. Brian Armstrong went to a podcast called Brian Armstrong went to a podcast called Brian Armstrong went to a podcast called Pot of Jake and it was a guy called Jake Pot of Jake and it was a guy called Jake Pot of Jake and it was a guy called Jake and he had like I don't know a hundred and he had like I don't know a hundred and he had like I don't know a hundred listeners and then afterwards he had 115 listeners and then afterwards he had 115 listeners and then afterwards he had 115 or something you know reach people like or something you know reach people like or something you know reach people like Brian um or there's like a few substacks Brian um or there's like a few substacks Brian um or there's like a few substacks or there's a few people on X like you or there's a few people on X like you or there's a few people on X like you you know where they're getting their you know where they're getting their you know where they're getting their information just go there work information just go there work information just go there work backwards. Does this require because backwards. Does this require because backwards. Does this require because like I can't tell the the the conditions like I can't tell the the the conditions like I can't tell the the the conditions in which this occurred, but I had the in which this occurred, but I had the in which this occurred, but I had the craziest experience where I wind up craziest experience where I wind up craziest experience where I wind up spending like eight straight hours with spending like eight straight hours with spending like eight straight hours with Palmer and I found him I've never met Palmer and I found him I've never met Palmer and I found him I've never met like a mind that was like him. like a mind that was like him. like a mind that was like him. Unbelievably charismatic, crazy Unbelievably charismatic, crazy Unbelievably charismatic, crazy storytelling, but like he is an storytelling, but like he is an storytelling, but like he is an inexhaustible mind in my opinion. I inexhaustible mind in my opinion. I inexhaustible mind in my opinion. I couldn't reach the bottom of him saying couldn't reach the bottom of him saying couldn't reach the bottom of him saying interesting interesting interesting >> Time out. Wait, is this when you had to >> Time out. Wait, is this when you had to >> Time out. Wait, is this when you had to call emergency backup podcasters to come call emergency backup podcasters to come call emergency backup podcasters to come [laughter] help? [laughter] help? [laughter] help? >> I've told you a story. >> I've told you a story. >> I've told you a story. >> Had to call a friend. So, no, we just >> Had to call a friend. So, no, we just >> Had to call a friend. So, no, we just happened to be with it was a weird happened to be with it was a weird happened to be with it was a weird circumstance. I can't even tell any circumstance. I can't even tell any circumstance. I can't even tell any details, but just there happened to be details, but just there happened to be details, but just there happened to be other podcasters and I was just like, other podcasters and I was just like, other podcasters and I was just like, dude, after three hours, it's like you dude, after three hours, it's like you dude, after three hours, it's like you got to start asking questions because I got to start asking questions because I got to start asking questions because I I can't it was so wildly entertaining I can't it was so wildly entertaining I can't it was so wildly entertaining and it's it's similar to like I would and it's it's similar to like I would and it's it's similar to like I would say Toby Luke in a different way. It's say Toby Luke in a different way. It's say Toby Luke in a different way. It's like you can't predict what his response like you can't predict what his response like you can't predict what his response to your statement is going to be. And to your statement is going to be. And to your statement is going to be. And that makes a very fascinating, but in that makes a very fascinating, but in that makes a very fascinating, but in this case, I was like, "Holy I got this case, I was like, "Holy I got this case, I was like, "Holy I got to like tap out on this." But he's also to like tap out on this." But he's also to like tap out on this." But he's also one of the most charismatic people on one of the most charismatic people on one of the most charismatic people on the planet. So, does going direct only the planet. So, does going direct only the planet. So, does going direct only work with that kind of founder? work with that kind of founder? work with that kind of founder? >> No. Um, it works better with that kind >> No. Um, it works better with that kind >> No. Um, it works better with that kind of founder, but you don't have to have of founder, but you don't have to have of founder, but you don't have to have traditional personal charisma. You can traditional personal charisma. You can traditional personal charisma. You can be more quiet, more introverted. You can be more quiet, more introverted. You can be more quiet, more introverted. You can you can have a whole range of you can have a whole range of you can have a whole range of personality types, but you have to have personality types, but you have to have personality types, but you have to have intensity of belief in the idea. So the intensity of belief in the idea. So the intensity of belief in the idea. So the idea has to be fleshed out and coherent idea has to be fleshed out and coherent idea has to be fleshed out and coherent and then your belief in it needs to be and then your belief in it needs to be and then your belief in it needs to be unassalable. So how much of your work is unassalable. So how much of your work is unassalable. So how much of your work is working with the founder to make their working with the founder to make their working with the founder to make their thinking clear enough? Because there's thinking clear enough? Because there's thinking clear enough? Because there's that idea that Steve Jobs would would that idea that Steve Jobs would would that idea that Steve Jobs would would say the simpler the idea the more say the simpler the idea the more say the simpler the idea the more they'll spread, they'll spread, they'll spread, >> right? And so he would spend un there's >> right? And so he would spend un there's >> right? And so he would spend un there's actually a book on this entire book on actually a book on this entire book on actually a book on this entire book on this. There's two books called one's this. There's two books called one's this. There's two books called one's called insanely simple, the other one's called insanely simple, the other one's called insanely simple, the other one's called the presentation secrets of Steve called the presentation secrets of Steve called the presentation secrets of Steve Jobs. read both of them and you know it Jobs. read both of them and you know it Jobs. read both of them and you know it was like he's such a clear thinker and was like he's such a clear thinker and was like he's such a clear thinker and look at the way he describes his look at the way he describes his look at the way he describes his products and the way he does an products and the way he does an products and the way he does an interview like there's so much work interview like there's so much work interview like there's so much work behind the scenes that you're not seeing behind the scenes that you're not seeing behind the scenes that you're not seeing for him to distill his thinking down to for him to distill his thinking down to for him to distill his thinking down to that is like is that a lot of the work that is like is that a lot of the work that is like is that a lot of the work that you're doing with these founders? that you're doing with these founders? that you're doing with these founders? >> Yeah. So I'll give you an example of a >> Yeah. So I'll give you an example of a >> Yeah. So I'll give you an example of a of a founder that I met at an event. I of a founder that I met at an event. I of a founder that I met at an event. I actually don't remember his company. We actually don't remember his company. We actually don't remember his company. We don't work together but that's what don't work together but that's what don't work together but that's what makes him a good example. We spoke for makes him a good example. We spoke for makes him a good example. We spoke for maybe seven minutes and for six of the maybe seven minutes and for six of the maybe seven minutes and for six of the minutes he is saying okay I have a minutes he is saying okay I have a minutes he is saying okay I have a business where anybody can become their business where anybody can become their business where anybody can become their own cloud kitchen. You know, there's all own cloud kitchen. You know, there's all own cloud kitchen. You know, there's all these people at home who know how to these people at home who know how to these people at home who know how to cook really good food and there's people cook really good food and there's people cook really good food and there's people who want more variety than the stuff who want more variety than the stuff who want more variety than the stuff they get on Door Dash and I'm connecting they get on Door Dash and I'm connecting they get on Door Dash and I'm connecting them and there's a network of and and them and there's a network of and and them and there's a network of and and there's a lot there and we had to there's a lot there and we had to there's a lot there and we had to distill it down and I'm listening to distill it down and I'm listening to distill it down and I'm listening to this and I thought, okay, this and I thought, okay, this and I thought, okay, so you're turning a cook into a chef and so you're turning a cook into a chef and so you're turning a cook into a chef and he said, "That's it." And he ran with he said, "That's it." And he ran with he said, "That's it." And he ran with it. Sometimes it's just having somebody it. Sometimes it's just having somebody it. Sometimes it's just having somebody who's not necessarily smarter than you who's not necessarily smarter than you who's not necessarily smarter than you and I don't know more about the topic, and I don't know more about the topic, and I don't know more about the topic, especially some of these AI founders who especially some of these AI founders who especially some of these AI founders who are just like technical geniuses. But are just like technical geniuses. But are just like technical geniuses. But sometimes someone sitting across from sometimes someone sitting across from sometimes someone sitting across from you can take your word cloud of thoughts you can take your word cloud of thoughts you can take your word cloud of thoughts and ideas and suggest for you a and ideas and suggest for you a and ideas and suggest for you a synthesis and for you to see that coming synthesis and for you to see that coming synthesis and for you to see that coming from someone else makes you recognize from someone else makes you recognize from someone else makes you recognize that that actually is the core of your that that actually is the core of your that that actually is the core of your idea. And now you have the compressed idea. And now you have the compressed idea. And now you have the compressed simple thing that you can share and simple thing that you can share and simple thing that you can share and spread. Okay. So, you have a simple idea spread. Okay. So, you have a simple idea spread. Okay. So, you have a simple idea >> that can spread. You have to have be >> that can spread. You have to have be >> that can spread. You have to have be you're starting a movement. Therefore, you're starting a movement. Therefore, you're starting a movement. Therefore, you have to have some kind of like you have to have some kind of like you have to have some kind of like passion or very like passion or very like passion or very like >> it's almost like a you're mission >> it's almost like a you're mission >> it's almost like a you're mission driven. How many clients do you have at driven. How many clients do you have at driven. How many clients do you have at this moment? this moment? this moment? >> Over a dozen. >> Over a dozen. >> Over a dozen. >> Okay. So, Oh, now we're expanding. Okay. >> Okay. So, Oh, now we're expanding. Okay. >> Okay. So, Oh, now we're expanding. Okay. So, I know you're you're expanding your So, I know you're you're expanding your So, I know you're you're expanding your [laughter] company. So, say you have a [laughter] company. So, say you have a [laughter] company. So, say you have a dozen. How many of them are not mission dozen. How many of them are not mission dozen. How many of them are not mission driven? driven? driven? >> None. >> None. >> None. >> Okay. So, you need to be mission driven. >> Okay. So, you need to be mission driven. >> Okay. So, you need to be mission driven. What other characteristics? What other characteristics? What other characteristics? >> It doesn't work. Like, how are you going >> It doesn't work. Like, how are you going >> It doesn't work. Like, how are you going to get somebody else to believe it if to get somebody else to believe it if to get somebody else to believe it if you don't believe it? you don't believe it? you don't believe it? >> Okay. So, perfect. So what I'm trying to >> Okay. So, perfect. So what I'm trying to >> Okay. So, perfect. So what I'm trying to get to is like what are the things that get to is like what are the things that get to is like what are the things that if the founders listening to this need if the founders listening to this need if the founders listening to this need to do before they can go direct for it to do before they can go direct for it to do before they can go direct for it to actually work. to actually work. to actually work. >> They need to convince themselves. >> They need to convince themselves. >> They need to convince themselves. You know, you have to go out in You know, you have to go out in You know, you have to go out in concentric circles and and the the dot concentric circles and and the the dot concentric circles and and the the dot inside all the circles is just you, the inside all the circles is just you, the inside all the circles is just you, the sovereign individual who believes that sovereign individual who believes that sovereign individual who believes that you're going to lead this movement. if you're going to lead this movement. if you're going to lead this movement. if you haven't convinced yourself you haven't convinced yourself you haven't convinced yourself of what it is and why it's worth doing of what it is and why it's worth doing of what it is and why it's worth doing that you're going to dedicate your life that you're going to dedicate your life that you're going to dedicate your life to it. You know, it's like if Napoleon's to it. You know, it's like if Napoleon's to it. You know, it's like if Napoleon's your general, if he's not going to die your general, if he's not going to die your general, if he's not going to die for it, why would you die for it? If for it, why would you die for it? If for it, why would you die for it? If he's not going to charge the bridge, why he's not going to charge the bridge, why he's not going to charge the bridge, why am I some schmuck running across the am I some schmuck running across the am I some schmuck running across the bridge? Same with Julius Caesar, right? bridge? Same with Julius Caesar, right? bridge? Same with Julius Caesar, right? At at um the battle against Vicking At at um the battle against Vicking At at um the battle against Vicking Getter, where he came out and was the Getter, where he came out and was the Getter, where he came out and was the easiest target out of anybody because of easiest target out of anybody because of easiest target out of anybody because of the way he was dressed. People saw him the way he was dressed. People saw him the way he was dressed. People saw him and they rallied back up. He's going to and they rallied back up. He's going to and they rallied back up. He's going to fight. We have to fight. you know, Jon fight. We have to fight. you know, Jon fight. We have to fight. you know, Jon of Arc, everything. You see the leader of Arc, everything. You see the leader of Arc, everything. You see the leader or you see a leader doing the thing that or you see a leader doing the thing that or you see a leader doing the thing that you now feel ashamed to not be doing. you now feel ashamed to not be doing. you now feel ashamed to not be doing. The person in the middle has to be the The person in the middle has to be the The person in the middle has to be the most convicted, the most passionate, and most convicted, the most passionate, and most convicted, the most passionate, and have the clearest idea of the promised have the clearest idea of the promised have the clearest idea of the promised land. land. land. >> You know what just hit me while I'm >> You know what just hit me while I'm >> You know what just hit me while I'm listening to you speak? listening to you speak? listening to you speak? >> I think this is a perfect opportunity. >> I think this is a perfect opportunity. >> I think this is a perfect opportunity. Articulate why you're doing this. Like Articulate why you're doing this. Like Articulate why you're doing this. Like what is why even start the company? Why what is why even start the company? Why what is why even start the company? Why you work like a dog like 7 days a week? you work like a dog like 7 days a week? you work like a dog like 7 days a week? I call you like 11:00 at night on the I call you like 11:00 at night on the I call you like 11:00 at night on the east coast and you pick up like and you east coast and you pick up like and you east coast and you pick up like and you have bunch of kids and like you have have bunch of kids and like you have have bunch of kids and like you have this crazy life. this crazy life. this crazy life. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So why are you like what is your >> So why are you like what is your >> So why are you like what is your mission? Like why even do this? mission? Like why even do this? mission? Like why even do this? >> I think the world is better when we >> I think the world is better when we >> I think the world is better when we allow new technologies to take root and allow new technologies to take root and allow new technologies to take root and flourish. And in my opinion building the flourish. And in my opinion building the flourish. And in my opinion building the technology is often not as hard as technology is often not as hard as technology is often not as hard as getting people to use the technology. It getting people to use the technology. It getting people to use the technology. It is not. If you build it, they will come. is not. If you build it, they will come. is not. If you build it, they will come. Which by the way originated from Field Which by the way originated from Field Which by the way originated from Field of Dreams. Did you know this? That's the of Dreams. Did you know this? That's the of Dreams. Did you know this? That's the origin of that quote. I thought it was origin of that quote. I thought it was origin of that quote. I thought it was from like the Bible or something. It's from like the Bible or something. It's from like the Bible or something. It's from Field of Dreams. If you build it, from Field of Dreams. If you build it, from Field of Dreams. If you build it, they will come. They're talking about a they will come. They're talking about a they will come. They're talking about a stadium. It is not if you build it, they stadium. It is not if you build it, they stadium. It is not if you build it, they will come. It's you might build it, will come. It's you might build it, will come. It's you might build it, maybe nobody uses it. Maybe it gets maybe nobody uses it. Maybe it gets maybe nobody uses it. Maybe it gets regulated out of existence and maybe regulated out of existence and maybe regulated out of existence and maybe nobody wants to come work on this thing nobody wants to come work on this thing nobody wants to come work on this thing and you get overtaken. So in my opinion, and you get overtaken. So in my opinion, and you get overtaken. So in my opinion, the greatest and most underestimated the greatest and most underestimated the greatest and most underestimated barrier between technology existing and barrier between technology existing and barrier between technology existing and actually having an impact is people actually having an impact is people actually having an impact is people understanding it, welcoming it into understanding it, welcoming it into understanding it, welcoming it into their lives and wanting to go work on their lives and wanting to go work on their lives and wanting to go work on it. And so there are a lot of really it. And so there are a lot of really it. And so there are a lot of really brilliant people working on the brilliant people working on the brilliant people working on the engineering and in the building. I don't engineering and in the building. I don't engineering and in the building. I don't think there's a commensurate amount of think there's a commensurate amount of think there's a commensurate amount of effort and thought being put into the effort and thought being put into the effort and thought being put into the second part, the human part of the second part, the human part of the second part, the human part of the equation of convincing people to equation of convincing people to equation of convincing people to [snorts] want it and use it and work on [snorts] want it and use it and work on [snorts] want it and use it and work on it. You see that with AI today, right? it. You see that with AI today, right? it. You see that with AI today, right? We can build the AI. We can build the AI. We can build the AI. Is the government going to allow it to Is the government going to allow it to Is the government going to allow it to be released? Are people going to use it? be released? Are people going to use it? be released? Are people going to use it? We can build data centers. We know how We can build data centers. We know how We can build data centers. We know how to build a data center. What are you to build a data center. What are you to build a data center. What are you going to do when there's a moratorum going to do when there's a moratorum going to do when there's a moratorum because people don't want it? because people don't want it? because people don't want it? >> This is a perfect example. AI right now >> This is a perfect example. AI right now >> This is a perfect example. AI right now has the worst reputation. It's like the has the worst reputation. It's like the has the worst reputation. It's like the worst favorable rating of almost worst favorable rating of almost worst favorable rating of almost anything. You've seen people talk about anything. You've seen people talk about anything. You've seen people talk about AI at commencement addresses and they're AI at commencement addresses and they're AI at commencement addresses and they're getting booed out of the room. What getting booed out of the room. What getting booed out of the room. What would you do differently? Explain the would you do differently? Explain the would you do differently? Explain the problem they have right now, what problem they have right now, what problem they have right now, what they're doing, and then how you would they're doing, and then how you would they're doing, and then how you would approach it differently. approach it differently. approach it differently. >> A lot of CEOs are describing that AI >> A lot of CEOs are describing that AI >> A lot of CEOs are describing that AI will cause massive job loss. Most people will cause massive job loss. Most people will cause massive job loss. Most people will look at that and say, "Don't say will look at that and say, "Don't say will look at that and say, "Don't say that it causes massive job loss." I look that it causes massive job loss." I look that it causes massive job loss." I look at it a little bit differently. If you at it a little bit differently. If you at it a little bit differently. If you believe that it'll cause massive job believe that it'll cause massive job believe that it'll cause massive job loss, and you're in that rare position, loss, and you're in that rare position, loss, and you're in that rare position, I think you do have an obligation to I think you do have an obligation to I think you do have an obligation to warn people and to try to get us to warn people and to try to get us to warn people and to try to get us to prepare for it. But the really small but prepare for it. But the really small but prepare for it. But the really small but really important thing is don't look really important thing is don't look really important thing is don't look happy when you're saying it. happy when you're saying it. happy when you're saying it. Don't be smiling Don't be smiling Don't be smiling when you say there's going to be a 50% when you say there's going to be a 50% when you say there's going to be a 50% unemployment rate in a year. Eric unemployment rate in a year. Eric unemployment rate in a year. Eric Schmidt doing that commencement speech. Schmidt doing that commencement speech. Schmidt doing that commencement speech. >> Explain the context of that in case >> Explain the context of that in case >> Explain the context of that in case people haven't seen it and then what he people haven't seen it and then what he people haven't seen it and then what he did and what you would do differently did and what you would do differently did and what you would do differently cuz I'd like your response to this. cuz I'd like your response to this. cuz I'd like your response to this. >> Eric Schmidt gave a commencement address >> Eric Schmidt gave a commencement address >> Eric Schmidt gave a commencement address and among other things that were totally and among other things that were totally and among other things that were totally fine. He said that AI will change the fine. He said that AI will change the fine. He said that AI will change the world and the question is whether you world and the question is whether you world and the question is whether you will help to build it and that it's will help to build it and that it's will help to build it and that it's going to disrupt all of these jobs and going to disrupt all of these jobs and going to disrupt all of these jobs and it will uh change the landscape and I it will uh change the landscape and I it will uh change the landscape and I forget his exact words but the vibe of forget his exact words but the vibe of forget his exact words but the vibe of it was it is taking away jobs deal with it was it is taking away jobs deal with it was it is taking away jobs deal with it and get on the train or you're on the it and get on the train or you're on the it and get on the train or you're on the tracks. tracks. tracks. two things. One is at the center of his two things. One is at the center of his two things. One is at the center of his story, the protagonist wasn't the human story, the protagonist wasn't the human story, the protagonist wasn't the human and it wasn't the person he was speaking and it wasn't the person he was speaking and it wasn't the person he was speaking to. He wasn't saying, "You can go change to. He wasn't saying, "You can go change to. He wasn't saying, "You can go change the world and you have the world's most the world and you have the world's most the world and you have the world's most miraculous technology to use. Think of miraculous technology to use. Think of miraculous technology to use. Think of what you could do with this." Instead, what you could do with this." Instead, what you could do with this." Instead, he said, "The technology, the he said, "The technology, the he said, "The technology, the protagonist is coming. Whether you like protagonist is coming. Whether you like protagonist is coming. Whether you like it or not, you are potentially in its it or not, you are potentially in its it or not, you are potentially in its way or you could get on the bandwagon way or you could get on the bandwagon way or you could get on the bandwagon with me." Which is just like the the with me." Which is just like the the with me." Which is just like the the wrong framing. And then the second is wrong framing. And then the second is wrong framing. And then the second is when he was talking about the when he was talking about the when he was talking about the possibility of AI essentially taking possibility of AI essentially taking possibility of AI essentially taking half the jobs of of these anxious half the jobs of of these anxious half the jobs of of these anxious graduates in the audience, he didn't graduates in the audience, he didn't graduates in the audience, he didn't seem upset. He didn't share what fear, seem upset. He didn't share what fear, seem upset. He didn't share what fear, anxiety or didn't recognize what it anxiety or didn't recognize what it anxiety or didn't recognize what it would be. He dismissed any potential would be. He dismissed any potential would be. He dismissed any potential anxiety that would arise from that. He anxiety that would arise from that. He anxiety that would arise from that. He sounded completely sounded completely sounded completely secure and blasze about this happening. secure and blasze about this happening. secure and blasze about this happening. And so a lot of people have opined on um And so a lot of people have opined on um And so a lot of people have opined on um the messaging of how you're going to the messaging of how you're going to the messaging of how you're going to talk about job displacement. Are you talk about job displacement. Are you talk about job displacement. Are you feeling are you doomer? Are you over feeling are you doomer? Are you over feeling are you doomer? Are you over optimistic? And all of this aside, optimistic? And all of this aside, optimistic? And all of this aside, a human talking to another human a human talking to another human a human talking to another human should recognize the other human's should recognize the other human's should recognize the other human's reaction to that news. And if I'm reaction to that news. And if I'm reaction to that news. And if I'm telling you that you are potentially telling you that you are potentially telling you that you are potentially going to lose status, purpose, income, going to lose status, purpose, income, going to lose status, purpose, income, and security, and security, and security, and I seem just fine, and I'm smiling as and I seem just fine, and I'm smiling as and I seem just fine, and I'm smiling as I say it, automatically there's no trust I say it, automatically there's no trust I say it, automatically there's no trust between us. You don't even think of me between us. You don't even think of me between us. You don't even think of me as barely as like the same species, but as barely as like the same species, but as barely as like the same species, but you don't think of me as being on your you don't think of me as being on your you don't think of me as being on your side. And you don't assume that other side. And you don't assume that other side. And you don't assume that other things I say are things that you would things I say are things that you would things I say are things that you would agree with or relate to. So the same way agree with or relate to. So the same way agree with or relate to. So the same way that like if you and I are disagreeing that like if you and I are disagreeing that like if you and I are disagreeing and we're fighting and we don't know if and we're fighting and we don't know if and we're fighting and we don't know if we can ever get on the same page, the we can ever get on the same page, the we can ever get on the same page, the best tactic for me is to find something best tactic for me is to find something best tactic for me is to find something that you and I agree on and to lay that that you and I agree on and to lay that that you and I agree on and to lay that as the foundation. It can be some as the foundation. It can be some as the foundation. It can be some anodine thing like you and I both really anodine thing like you and I both really anodine thing like you and I both really like that hot chocolate you did didn't like that hot chocolate you did didn't like that hot chocolate you did didn't completely unrelatable to me. So it completely unrelatable to me. So it completely unrelatable to me. So it would be something else. would be something else. would be something else. >> People don't understand she has hot >> People don't understand she has hot >> People don't understand she has hot chocolate in that cup. Every time I see chocolate in that cup. Every time I see chocolate in that cup. Every time I see you fuels inappropriate as an adult you fuels inappropriate as an adult you fuels inappropriate as an adult fuels me a grown adult. what fuels me fuels me a grown adult. what fuels me fuels me a grown adult. what fuels me and that's every restaurant I'm at with and that's every restaurant I'm at with and that's every restaurant I'm at with you you you >> alpha in the fact that others don't >> alpha in the fact that others don't >> alpha in the fact that others don't recognize recognize recognize >> the potential of this as a performance >> the potential of this as a performance >> the potential of this as a performance beverage beverage beverage >> you're a grownup >> you're a grownup >> you're a grownup >> you should not be having hot chocolate >> you should not be having hot chocolate >> you should not be having hot chocolate every dinner every dinner every dinner >> this is why I don't have to spray my >> this is why I don't have to spray my >> this is why I don't have to spray my nose with the zinc stuff because nose with the zinc stuff because nose with the zinc stuff because >> my nose my throat I talk about >> my nose my throat I talk about >> my nose my throat I talk about >> the hot chocolate is helping me speak >> the hot chocolate is helping me speak >> the hot chocolate is helping me speak >> for a living >> for a living >> for a living >> if we were arguing I wanted to get us >> if we were arguing I wanted to get us >> if we were arguing I wanted to get us back on the same page I would say so back on the same page I would say so back on the same page I would say so yeah well now we have to reconcile so yeah well now we have to reconcile so yeah well now we have to reconcile so now we have to be like this is a really now we have to be like this is a really now we have to be like this is a really beautiful place I'm glad we're beautiful place I'm glad we're beautiful place I'm glad we're Thank you for the Aman New York for Thank you for the Aman New York for Thank you for the Aman New York for letting us shoot here. By the way, letting us shoot here. By the way, letting us shoot here. By the way, >> shout out Aman New York. >> shout out Aman New York. >> shout out Aman New York. >> Now that we're back on the same page, >> Now that we're back on the same page, >> Now that we're back on the same page, you can assume that things I say in the you can assume that things I say in the you can assume that things I say in the future are things that you will probably future are things that you will probably future are things that you will probably agree with because you believe that I'm agree with because you believe that I'm agree with because you believe that I'm someone with whom you have things in someone with whom you have things in someone with whom you have things in common. So a lot of um the senior people common. So a lot of um the senior people common. So a lot of um the senior people in AI that the general public sees get in AI that the general public sees get in AI that the general public sees get introduced to them in a way where they introduced to them in a way where they introduced to them in a way where they automatically believe this person has automatically believe this person has automatically believe this person has nothing in common with me and anything nothing in common with me and anything nothing in common with me and anything else they say. I cannot assume that I else they say. I cannot assume that I else they say. I cannot assume that I would assess the situation the same way. would assess the situation the same way. would assess the situation the same way. >> Deal is how the best founders turn the >> Deal is how the best founders turn the >> Deal is how the best founders turn the world into their talent pool. [music] world into their talent pool. [music] world into their talent pool. [music] I've been studying how history's I've been studying how history's I've been studying how history's greatest founders operate for a decade. greatest founders operate for a decade. greatest founders operate for a decade. And one thing they all have in common is And one thing they all have in common is And one thing they all have in common is they understand that recruiting and they understand that recruiting and they understand that recruiting and hiring the very best talent is your hiring the very best talent is your hiring the very best talent is your [music] most important priority. A [music] most important priority. A [music] most important priority. A players recognize other A players, which players recognize other A players, which players recognize other A players, which is why top companies like Ramp, Shopify, is why top companies like Ramp, Shopify, is why top companies like Ramp, Shopify, 11 [music] Labs, Uber, and Door Dash all 11 [music] Labs, Uber, and Door Dash all 11 [music] Labs, Uber, and Door Dash all use Deal. Many of the top founders I use Deal. Many of the top founders I use Deal. Many of the top founders I know have personally invested in Deal know have personally invested in Deal know have personally invested in Deal after using their product. [music] And after using their product. [music] And after using their product. [music] And what they discovered is that deal is the what they discovered is that deal is the what they discovered is that deal is the best company in the world at building best company in the world at building best company in the world at building infrastructure for global hiring. 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The founder of 11 Labs has a great founder of 11 Labs has a great founder of 11 Labs has a great description of the value [music] deal description of the value [music] deal description of the value [music] deal can give your company. He said, "We can give your company. He said, "We can give your company. He said, "We built 11 Labs to break down language and built 11 Labs to break down language and built 11 Labs to break down language and communication barriers. With deal communication barriers. With deal communication barriers. With deal enabling us to hire and support enabling us to hire and support enabling us to hire and support exceptional talent anywhere, we can exceptional talent anywhere, we can exceptional talent anywhere, we can accelerate our innovation and bring more accelerate our innovation and bring more accelerate our innovation and bring more [music] voices, stories, and ideas to [music] voices, stories, and ideas to [music] voices, stories, and ideas to every corner of the world. Deal is every corner of the world. Deal is every corner of the world. Deal is trusted by over 40,000 [music] trusted by over 40,000 [music] trusted by over 40,000 [music] businesses. Learn how they can help your businesses. Learn how they can help your businesses. Learn how they can help your business today by going to business today by going to business today by going to deal.com/enra. deal.com/enra. deal.com/enra. That is deal.com/enra. Something that I've heard you say a few Something that I've heard you say a few times is that humans crave a story. One times is that humans crave a story. One times is that humans crave a story. One of my favorite alltime quotes is from of my favorite alltime quotes is from of my favorite alltime quotes is from Steve Jobs. says the storyteller is the Steve Jobs. says the storyteller is the Steve Jobs. says the storyteller is the most powerful person in the world and most powerful person in the world and most powerful person in the world and something that I think is important something that I think is important something that I think is important because I just I was sitting here because I just I was sitting here because I just I was sitting here listening to you when I asked you like listening to you when I asked you like listening to you when I asked you like oh what's your mission behind like why oh what's your mission behind like why oh what's your mission behind like why you even do this and you're talking you even do this and you're talking you even do this and you're talking about the importance of creating new about the importance of creating new about the importance of creating new technology I think you and I what you're technology I think you and I what you're technology I think you and I what you're doing on the PR side and what I'm trying doing on the PR side and what I'm trying doing on the PR side and what I'm trying to do with the podcast is like this new to do with the podcast is like this new to do with the podcast is like this new podcast this show essentially started podcast this show essentially started podcast this show essentially started out as like we should have a love letter out as like we should have a love letter out as like we should have a love letter to capitalism right it's like I'm the to capitalism right it's like I'm the to capitalism right it's like I'm the son of a Cuban immigrant my grandfather son of a Cuban immigrant my grandfather son of a Cuban immigrant my grandfather was born in Cuba Castro takes over he's was born in Cuba Castro takes over he's was born in Cuba Castro takes over he's like this is we need to get out like this is we need to get out like this is we need to get out of here that one decision by a man I of here that one decision by a man I of here that one decision by a man I don't I don't ever remember eating don't I don't ever remember eating don't I don't ever remember eating changed the trajectory of my life. And changed the trajectory of my life. And changed the trajectory of my life. And what's weird to me is capitalism seems what's weird to me is capitalism seems what's weird to me is capitalism seems like one of the greatest inventions like one of the greatest inventions like one of the greatest inventions humanity ever had. A huge force of good, humanity ever had. A huge force of good, humanity ever had. A huge force of good, the reason that one of the reasons that the reason that one of the reasons that the reason that one of the reasons that America's the most powerful and America's the most powerful and America's the most powerful and prosperous nation on the planet, it prosperous nation on the planet, it prosperous nation on the planet, it should be celebrated. I remember sitting should be celebrated. I remember sitting should be celebrated. I remember sitting across from Bezos, Jeff Bezos one time. across from Bezos, Jeff Bezos one time. across from Bezos, Jeff Bezos one time. I got to talk to him for several hours, I got to talk to him for several hours, I got to talk to him for several hours, which was incredible. And I told him, I which was incredible. And I told him, I which was incredible. And I told him, I was like, "The idea that they protested was like, "The idea that they protested was like, "The idea that they protested outside of your house and they put a outside of your house and they put a outside of your house and they put a guillotine in front of your guillotine in front of your guillotine in front of your house is insane to me." And I told him house is insane to me." And I told him house is insane to me." And I told him and I told him, I go, "You made a magic and I told him, I go, "You made a magic and I told him, I go, "You made a magic button that I can press and anything button that I can press and anything button that I can press and anything comes to my house." Used to be 2 days. comes to my house." Used to be 2 days. comes to my house." Used to be 2 days. Now it comes like 3 hours later. Now it comes like 3 hours later. Now it comes like 3 hours later. >> And I was like, "That's what it's like, >> And I was like, "That's what it's like, >> And I was like, "That's what it's like, you deserve all the money." He just you deserve all the money." He just you deserve all the money." He just laughed and laughed and laughed. laughed and laughed and laughed. laughed and laughed and laughed. >> But >> But >> But >> I think like the the other story, you >> I think like the the other story, you >> I think like the the other story, you don't displace. You can't just like say, don't displace. You can't just like say, don't displace. You can't just like say, "Oh, communism sucks. Look at all the "Oh, communism sucks. Look at all the "Oh, communism sucks. Look at all the people that have died. Look what people that have died. Look what people that have died. Look what happened in Cuba. Look what happened to happened in Cuba. Look what happened to happened in Cuba. Look what happened to all these countries." You have to tell a all these countries." You have to tell a all these countries." You have to tell a better story. You have to give them a better story. You have to give them a better story. You have to give them a better alternative. I feel the people in better alternative. I feel the people in better alternative. I feel the people in AI, I use AI every day. It seems AI, I use AI every day. It seems AI, I use AI every day. It seems miraculous to me. We use it for the miraculous to me. We use it for the miraculous to me. We use it for the podcast, they use it for learning, use podcast, they use it for learning, use podcast, they use it for learning, use it for entertainment, all these other it for entertainment, all these other it for entertainment, all these other things. They're not putting forth like a things. They're not putting forth like a things. They're not putting forth like a better story. better story. better story. >> They're not doing it in the right way. >> They're not doing it in the right way. >> They're not doing it in the right way. Also, there are people who have painted Also, there are people who have painted Also, there are people who have painted really wonderful optimistic visions of really wonderful optimistic visions of really wonderful optimistic visions of what AI could create in the future, but what AI could create in the future, but what AI could create in the future, but it feels like PR and people write it off it feels like PR and people write it off it feels like PR and people write it off and it feels heavy-handed. The last time and it feels heavy-handed. The last time and it feels heavy-handed. The last time there was a really effective techno there was a really effective techno there was a really effective techno optimist message was the Jetsons. optimist message was the Jetsons. optimist message was the Jetsons. And it's because And it's because And it's because they weren't beating you over the head they weren't beating you over the head they weren't beating you over the head with technology is going to make your with technology is going to make your with technology is going to make your life great. The show was about other life great. The show was about other life great. The show was about other stuff. I don't know. They go around, stuff. I don't know. They go around, stuff. I don't know. They go around, they go about their family dynamic they go about their family dynamic they go about their family dynamic family, where you have a robot in your family, where you have a robot in your family, where you have a robot in your house doing all your work. You have a house doing all your work. You have a house doing all your work. You have a flying car in the background. It was flying car in the background. It was flying car in the background. It was ambient. It was ambient and assumed ambient. It was ambient and assumed ambient. It was ambient and assumed everything everything everything >> technopesimist. >> technopesimist. >> technopesimist. The tech is in the foreground and it's The tech is in the foreground and it's The tech is in the foreground and it's about the tech. about the tech. about the tech. Terminator or Blade Runner, anything Terminator or Blade Runner, anything Terminator or Blade Runner, anything where there's a future that you where there's a future that you where there's a future that you potentially don't want potentially don't want potentially don't want >> dystopian. >> dystopian. >> dystopian. >> It's a the dystopian stories about the >> It's a the dystopian stories about the >> It's a the dystopian stories about the tech. The tech is the thing people focus tech. The tech is the thing people focus tech. The tech is the thing people focus on. But the utopian stories about tech, on. But the utopian stories about tech, on. But the utopian stories about tech, when you make tech the thing people when you make tech the thing people when you make tech the thing people focus on, they write it off as PR. And focus on, they write it off as PR. And focus on, they write it off as PR. And so I think what we want is for the so I think what we want is for the so I think what we want is for the utopian stories about tech or the utopian stories about tech or the utopian stories about tech or the optimistic stories about tech to have it optimistic stories about tech to have it optimistic stories about tech to have it in the background just be ambient. A lot in the background just be ambient. A lot in the background just be ambient. A lot of people have read sci-fi novels or and of people have read sci-fi novels or and of people have read sci-fi novels or and sci-fi novel novels are usually not sci-fi novel novels are usually not sci-fi novel novels are usually not about the technology itself. It's about about the technology itself. It's about about the technology itself. It's about a story like Neil Stevenson's Diamond a story like Neil Stevenson's Diamond a story like Neil Stevenson's Diamond Age is about Nell and her family and um Age is about Nell and her family and um Age is about Nell and her family and um Seven Eves is about the people being Seven Eves is about the people being Seven Eves is about the people being sent to space and the fact that they sent to space and the fact that they sent to space and the fact that they have technology to preserve the human have technology to preserve the human have technology to preserve the human race is in the background as an enabler race is in the background as an enabler race is in the background as an enabler and these are the types of stories that and these are the types of stories that and these are the types of stories that make people so inspired that they have make people so inspired that they have make people so inspired that they have now started companies. You and I have now started companies. You and I have now started companies. You and I have talked to many founders who have started talked to many founders who have started talked to many founders who have started companies based on being inspired by companies based on being inspired by companies based on being inspired by sci-fi. Palmer is obviously one of them. sci-fi. Palmer is obviously one of them. sci-fi. Palmer is obviously one of them. And it's not because they're bludgeoning And it's not because they're bludgeoning And it's not because they're bludgeoning you over the head with one specific you over the head with one specific you over the head with one specific invention. It's because they're showing invention. It's because they're showing invention. It's because they're showing the better world and the human stories the better world and the human stories the better world and the human stories within it with technology in the within it with technology in the within it with technology in the ambiance. ambiance. ambiance. >> I feel like if people went back and >> I feel like if people went back and >> I feel like if people went back and studied like David Oggovy, Claude studied like David Oggovy, Claude studied like David Oggovy, Claude Hopkins, Albert Lasker, some of the Hopkins, Albert Lasker, some of the Hopkins, Albert Lasker, some of the greatest copyriters and some of the greatest copyriters and some of the greatest copyriters and some of the greatest uh founders of these the heyday greatest uh founders of these the heyday greatest uh founders of these the heyday like the Madison Avenue of these like the Madison Avenue of these like the Madison Avenue of these advertising agencies, they they just all advertising agencies, they they just all advertising agencies, they they just all say the same over and over again. say the same over and over again. say the same over and over again. They're just like, "Show the benefit. They're just like, "Show the benefit. They're just like, "Show the benefit. show what don't show your product, show show what don't show your product, show show what don't show your product, show the change it enables. I think one of the change it enables. I think one of the change it enables. I think one of the best examples of this is if you the best examples of this is if you the best examples of this is if you heard the story when Steve Jobs was heard the story when Steve Jobs was heard the story when Steve Jobs was really young. I think he was like in his really young. I think he was like in his really young. I think he was like in his 20s and he's like the he tells the story 20s and he's like the he tells the story 20s and he's like the he tells the story of uh the the most efficient uh like of uh the the most efficient uh like of uh the the most efficient uh like locomotion for any, you know, uh any locomotion for any, you know, uh any locomotion for any, you know, uh any creature on Earth. And uh it's like you creature on Earth. And uh it's like you creature on Earth. And uh it's like you know uh a man is really like low on that know uh a man is really like low on that know uh a man is really like low on that compared to other animals. Well, you put compared to other animals. Well, you put compared to other animals. Well, you put a man on a bike and he's way more a man on a bike and he's way more a man on a bike and he's way more >> cuz I drink chocolate milk. But he's way >> cuz I drink chocolate milk. But he's way >> cuz I drink chocolate milk. But he's way more efficient than even like the condor more efficient than even like the condor more efficient than even like the condor I think is the the what he the animal I think is the the what he the animal I think is the the what he the animal that um he that he just compared it to. that um he that he just compared it to. that um he that he just compared it to. But he's like but if you put him on like But he's like but if you put him on like But he's like but if you put him on like the bicycle he goes so what I'm creating the bicycle he goes so what I'm creating the bicycle he goes so what I'm creating is the bicycle for the mind. And then is the bicycle for the mind. And then is the bicycle for the mind. And then you're like oh I want a computer because you're like oh I want a computer because you're like oh I want a computer because this is now makes me more efficient. It this is now makes me more efficient. It this is now makes me more efficient. It makes me takes me from the slowfooted makes me takes me from the slowfooted makes me takes me from the slowfooted human to the fastest animal and the most human to the fastest animal and the most human to the fastest animal and the most efficient animal on the planet. That is efficient animal on the planet. That is efficient animal on the planet. That is a perfect illustration of like I'm not a perfect illustration of like I'm not a perfect illustration of like I'm not selling you bits and bites and RAM. I'm selling you bits and bites and RAM. I'm selling you bits and bites and RAM. I'm saying what is going to occur after you saying what is going to occur after you saying what is going to occur after you use my product. So let's go through some use my product. So let's go through some use my product. So let's go through some examples because I think some of your examples because I think some of your examples because I think some of your clients you're on the board of Shopify clients you're on the board of Shopify clients you're on the board of Shopify for example. for example. for example. >> I think Toby does this perfectly like >> I think Toby does this perfectly like >> I think Toby does this perfectly like the way he conveys what Shopify is is the way he conveys what Shopify is is the way he conveys what Shopify is is like trying to create more entrepreneurs like trying to create more entrepreneurs like trying to create more entrepreneurs in the world. So one thing I want to in the world. So one thing I want to in the world. So one thing I want to point out is talking about the change in point out is talking about the change in point out is talking about the change in you with the product is exactly the you with the product is exactly the you with the product is exactly the right way and what we were talking about right way and what we were talking about right way and what we were talking about earlier with showing technology in the earlier with showing technology in the earlier with showing technology in the background of a human story and not just background of a human story and not just background of a human story and not just bludgeoning you with the technology is bludgeoning you with the technology is bludgeoning you with the technology is more effective. The second thing that's more effective. The second thing that's more effective. The second thing that's really effective about bicycles of the really effective about bicycles of the really effective about bicycles of the mind is the analogy because he just mind is the analogy because he just mind is the analogy because he just saved himself two paragraphs of saved himself two paragraphs of saved himself two paragraphs of explaining by saying the word bicycle explaining by saying the word bicycle explaining by saying the word bicycle cuz we know what a bicycle is. So I was cuz we know what a bicycle is. So I was cuz we know what a bicycle is. So I was talking to a founder a few weeks ago talking to a founder a few weeks ago talking to a founder a few weeks ago where he said we take a system that where he said we take a system that where he said we take a system that ingests the data and then finds the ingests the data and then finds the ingests the data and then finds the inefficiencies and identifies inefficiencies and identifies inefficiencies and identifies and I thought about it and I said oh and I thought about it and I said oh and I thought about it and I said oh it's Ozmpic for companies. Okay. And if it's Ozmpic for companies. Okay. And if it's Ozmpic for companies. Okay. And if you know what Ompic is then you've just you know what Ompic is then you've just you know what Ompic is then you've just saved yourself two paragraphs of of saved yourself two paragraphs of of saved yourself two paragraphs of of explaining where you get two birds one explaining where you get two birds one explaining where you get two birds one stone. You get the complexity but you stone. You get the complexity but you stone. You get the complexity but you also get the simplicity and it's the also get the simplicity and it's the also get the simplicity and it's the best of both worlds. So give me some best of both worlds. So give me some best of both worlds. So give me some more examples from some of your your more examples from some of your your more examples from some of your your like the way they described their like the way they described their like the way they described their mission. They distill it down to like mission. They distill it down to like mission. They distill it down to like the the existence of their company. What the the existence of their company. What the the existence of their company. What is their company doing for the people is their company doing for the people is their company doing for the people their customers and the people that use their customers and the people that use their customers and the people that use their products? their products? their products? >> You asked about Shopify and Toby is very >> You asked about Shopify and Toby is very >> You asked about Shopify and Toby is very good at this where he talks about good at this where he talks about good at this where he talks about there's kind of two levels of Shopify. there's kind of two levels of Shopify. there's kind of two levels of Shopify. One is the level of this wondrous One is the level of this wondrous One is the level of this wondrous technology and what it means for the technology and what it means for the technology and what it means for the world. And in some ways it is the world. And in some ways it is the world. And in some ways it is the technology backing entrepreneurship and technology backing entrepreneurship and technology backing entrepreneurship and entrepreneurship is going to be the last entrepreneurship is going to be the last entrepreneurship is going to be the last bastion of human economic value. If they bastion of human economic value. If they bastion of human economic value. If they take everything from us, we will always take everything from us, we will always take everything from us, we will always have entrepreneurship. So Shopify is have entrepreneurship. So Shopify is have entrepreneurship. So Shopify is sort of like a hedge against every job sort of like a hedge against every job sort of like a hedge against every job being taken because they can't take from being taken because they can't take from being taken because they can't take from us our agency and our ability to start us our agency and our ability to start us our agency and our ability to start new things. Shopify creates the new things. Shopify creates the new things. Shopify creates the technology to make that happen. technology to make that happen. technology to make that happen. Shopify's infrastructure for Shopify's infrastructure for Shopify's infrastructure for entrepreneurship. That's one level for entrepreneurship. That's one level for entrepreneurship. That's one level for it. Another level is the merchants. Toby it. Another level is the merchants. Toby it. Another level is the merchants. Toby and Harley do a wonderful job of telling and Harley do a wonderful job of telling and Harley do a wonderful job of telling the Shopify story through what it has the Shopify story through what it has the Shopify story through what it has done for the merchants. skims done for the merchants. skims done for the merchants. skims successful company probably IPO was successful company probably IPO was successful company probably IPO was possible because Kim and Yens and the possible because Kim and Yens and the possible because Kim and Yens and the team didn't have to sit down and say team didn't have to sit down and say team didn't have to sit down and say like okay we want to start the store but like okay we want to start the store but like okay we want to start the store but first we have to figure out how to first we have to figure out how to first we have to figure out how to individually do a web portal and individually do a web portal and individually do a web portal and payments and design and all of these payments and design and all of these payments and design and all of these things and patch it together how many things and patch it together how many things and patch it together how many people have that as an insurmountable people have that as an insurmountable people have that as an insurmountable obstacle before they're able to actually obstacle before they're able to actually obstacle before they're able to actually bring their business online so the story bring their business online so the story bring their business online so the story of one merchant going from someone's of one merchant going from someone's of one merchant going from someone's dream and it might be somebody in a dream and it might be somebody in a dream and it might be somebody in a small town who is retiring and has small town who is retiring and has small town who is retiring and has always wanted to open a marmalade shop always wanted to open a marmalade shop always wanted to open a marmalade shop or whatever, or maybe it's one of the or whatever, or maybe it's one of the or whatever, or maybe it's one of the biggest celebrities on earth launching biggest celebrities on earth launching biggest celebrities on earth launching Skims, turning that into what is now a Skims, turning that into what is now a Skims, turning that into what is now a thriving business, um, is the best way thriving business, um, is the best way thriving business, um, is the best way to talk about Shopify, even though to talk about Shopify, even though to talk about Shopify, even though they're not the hero of the story. So they're not the hero of the story. So they're not the hero of the story. So again, we're seeing a theme. Same thing again, we're seeing a theme. Same thing again, we're seeing a theme. Same thing as what I said previously with the as what I said previously with the as what I said previously with the Jetsons. The Jetsons are the hero of the Jetsons. The Jetsons are the hero of the Jetsons. The Jetsons are the hero of the story. It is not called show about story. It is not called show about story. It is not called show about robots. robots. robots. you know, the robot made series and then you know, the robot made series and then you know, the robot made series and then the Jetsons are side characters. They're the Jetsons are side characters. They're the Jetsons are side characters. They're the heroes. The human story is the hero the heroes. The human story is the hero the heroes. The human story is the hero and then the technology is ambient. It's and then the technology is ambient. It's and then the technology is ambient. It's the same thing with Shopify. In this in the same thing with Shopify. In this in the same thing with Shopify. In this in the ski story, Kim and Yens and their the ski story, Kim and Yens and their the ski story, Kim and Yens and their team, they're the entrepreneurs. They're team, they're the entrepreneurs. They're team, they're the entrepreneurs. They're the hero. Shopify is ambient because the hero. Shopify is ambient because the hero. Shopify is ambient because without them, none of this would be without them, none of this would be without them, none of this would be possible in its current form. But you possible in its current form. But you possible in its current form. But you are not bludgeoning people with this is are not bludgeoning people with this is are not bludgeoning people with this is about Shopify. about Shopify. about Shopify. >> All right. You wrote this essay called >> All right. You wrote this essay called >> All right. You wrote this essay called Standing On 2026 that I absolutely Standing On 2026 that I absolutely Standing On 2026 that I absolutely loved. You talked about the difference loved. You talked about the difference loved. You talked about the difference in strategy that founders should take in strategy that founders should take in strategy that founders should take moving forward. Can you like lay out the moving forward. Can you like lay out the moving forward. Can you like lay out the thesis and like the main idea behind thesis and like the main idea behind thesis and like the main idea behind what you're writing? what you're writing? what you're writing? >> This is my philippad for the year, which >> This is my philippad for the year, which >> This is my philippad for the year, which is this tirade I've been I've been going is this tirade I've been I've been going is this tirade I've been I've been going on, which is that everything seems fake on, which is that everything seems fake on, which is that everything seems fake now. Everything is fake. Everything is now. Everything is fake. Everything is now. Everything is fake. Everything is fake. You you go to some of these fake. You you go to some of these fake. You you go to some of these launches, first of all, every launch launches, first of all, every launch launches, first of all, every launch uses the same like slop cinematic video, uses the same like slop cinematic video, uses the same like slop cinematic video, same template. It was original a few same template. It was original a few same template. It was original a few times and now it's just like they're all times and now it's just like they're all times and now it's just like they're all doing it and then half of them you go to doing it and then half of them you go to doing it and then half of them you go to the engagement it's completely fake. You the engagement it's completely fake. You the engagement it's completely fake. You you saw um one from today I think you you saw um one from today I think you you saw um one from today I think you said that it had like said that it had like said that it had like >> it has like 100red likes but 4700 >> it has like 100red likes but 4700 >> it has like 100red likes but 4700 retweets. It's like why are you paying retweets. It's like why are you paying retweets. It's like why are you paying for retweets? for retweets? for retweets? >> Yeah. There was another one from a >> Yeah. There was another one from a >> Yeah. There was another one from a couple weeks ago and then another one couple weeks ago and then another one couple weeks ago and then another one from the week after that. And the reason from the week after that. And the reason from the week after that. And the reason we know is because you and I have the we know is because you and I have the we know is because you and I have the eye to look for it. And also I know who eye to look for it. And also I know who eye to look for it. And also I know who some of these agencies are. I get the some of these agencies are. I get the some of these agencies are. I get the messages, you know, pitching the paid messages, you know, pitching the paid messages, you know, pitching the paid promotions. I know the people who get promotions. I know the people who get promotions. I know the people who get the messages. And you can just start to the messages. And you can just start to the messages. And you can just start to tell after a while that number one, the tell after a while that number one, the tell after a while that number one, the amount of engagement this thing has is amount of engagement this thing has is amount of engagement this thing has is completely disproportionate to how completely disproportionate to how completely disproportionate to how interesting it actually is. And then interesting it actually is. And then interesting it actually is. And then number two, when you look through the number two, when you look through the number two, when you look through the people who are engaging with it, it's people who are engaging with it, it's people who are engaging with it, it's all like some random account in a all like some random account in a all like some random account in a developing country [laughter] developing country [laughter] developing country [laughter] that has no other tweets that are than that has no other tweets that are than that has no other tweets that are than um shilling products like this. When um shilling products like this. When um shilling products like this. When that happens, I write off the entire that happens, I write off the entire that happens, I write off the entire company as fake. I don't think this was company as fake. I don't think this was company as fake. I don't think this was a fake video or fake engagement. I think a fake video or fake engagement. I think a fake video or fake engagement. I think to myself, it's a fake company with a to myself, it's a fake company with a to myself, it's a fake company with a fake founder. I will never buy their fake founder. I will never buy their fake founder. I will never buy their product, do business with them. I would product, do business with them. I would product, do business with them. I would never recommend somebody go work with never recommend somebody go work with never recommend somebody go work with them. The whole thing is fake. them. The whole thing is fake. them. The whole thing is fake. >> What is the advice that you have in the >> What is the advice that you have in the >> What is the advice that you have in the essay for to do like what would you do essay for to do like what would you do essay for to do like what would you do today? today? today? >> You can do things that can't be faked. >> You can do things that can't be faked. >> You can do things that can't be faked. So, first of all, it's better to put out So, first of all, it's better to put out So, first of all, it's better to put out something that truly represents the best something that truly represents the best something that truly represents the best version of what you are doing that might version of what you are doing that might version of what you are doing that might get lower engagement, but the people who get lower engagement, but the people who get lower engagement, but the people who are engaging are actually real people are engaging are actually real people are engaging are actually real people and they care. So, it's better to get 50 and they care. So, it's better to get 50 and they care. So, it's better to get 50 people who feel like this is speaking to people who feel like this is speaking to people who feel like this is speaking to them than to get the 4,700 them than to get the 4,700 them than to get the 4,700 retweets or whatever that you saw that retweets or whatever that you saw that retweets or whatever that you saw that seems obviously fake. Two is there are seems obviously fake. Two is there are seems obviously fake. Two is there are things that the fakes can't replicate. things that the fakes can't replicate. things that the fakes can't replicate. And these things are relationships with And these things are relationships with And these things are relationships with other humans. You should make sure to be other humans. You should make sure to be other humans. You should make sure to be telling your friends about it, telling telling your friends about it, telling telling your friends about it, telling your contacts, and um partnering with your contacts, and um partnering with your contacts, and um partnering with the people that you've known and trusted the people that you've known and trusted the people that you've known and trusted for a long time. that can't be faked by for a long time. that can't be faked by for a long time. that can't be faked by one of these fake companies. Another is one of these fake companies. Another is one of these fake companies. Another is doing things in the real world. Um where doing things in the real world. Um where doing things in the real world. Um where you might just bring people over to your you might just bring people over to your you might just bring people over to your house and talk about it. Fake company house and talk about it. Fake company house and talk about it. Fake company can't do that. There's a sense of can't do that. There's a sense of can't do that. There's a sense of taste and discernment and taste and discernment and taste and discernment and beauty beauty beauty >> that I don't see in these fake things. >> that I don't see in these fake things. >> that I don't see in these fake things. They're not made with love. They're not made with love. They're not made with love. >> Yeah. You keep saying there going to be >> Yeah. You keep saying there going to be >> Yeah. You keep saying there going to be like a return to beauty. What does that like a return to beauty. What does that like a return to beauty. What does that mean? mean? mean? >> There is a return to beauty. What does >> There is a return to beauty. What does >> There is a return to beauty. What does that mean? that mean? that mean? >> People are allowed to care about >> People are allowed to care about >> People are allowed to care about objectively beautiful things. Again, we objectively beautiful things. Again, we objectively beautiful things. Again, we had probably a decade or the better part had probably a decade or the better part had probably a decade or the better part of a decade where we had to take this of a decade where we had to take this of a decade where we had to take this aesthetic relativistic view of aesthetic relativistic view of aesthetic relativistic view of everything is beautiful in someone's everything is beautiful in someone's everything is beautiful in someone's eyes and this piece of art that is like eyes and this piece of art that is like eyes and this piece of art that is like clearly trash is just as beautiful as clearly trash is just as beautiful as clearly trash is just as beautiful as one of the great masters. or somebody one of the great masters. or somebody one of the great masters. or somebody who is clearly unhealthy and unhappy is who is clearly unhealthy and unhappy is who is clearly unhealthy and unhappy is just as beautiful as someone who takes just as beautiful as someone who takes just as beautiful as someone who takes really good care of themselves. And really good care of themselves. And really good care of themselves. And >> you're talking about putting obese women >> you're talking about putting obese women >> you're talking about putting obese women on like the front of a magazine. on like the front of a magazine. on like the front of a magazine. >> Uh yes. Like um like the Victoria Secret >> Uh yes. Like um like the Victoria Secret >> Uh yes. Like um like the Victoria Secret had this phase of like obese women and had this phase of like obese women and had this phase of like obese women and men. Men Victor's Secret. It became men. Men Victor's Secret. It became men. Men Victor's Secret. It became [laughter] This isn't Victor's secret, This isn't Victor's secret, >> but it was for a while. Like, why why >> but it was for a while. Like, why why >> but it was for a while. Like, why why are we all pretending it was like the are we all pretending it was like the are we all pretending it was like the Emperor's new clothes, the Emperor's new Emperor's new clothes, the Emperor's new Emperor's new clothes, the Emperor's new lingerie? Like, we're all pretending lingerie? Like, we're all pretending lingerie? Like, we're all pretending that this is still sexy, and we're that this is still sexy, and we're that this is still sexy, and we're pretending that this still looks good. pretending that this still looks good. pretending that this still looks good. Anyway, coming off of the back of that, Anyway, coming off of the back of that, Anyway, coming off of the back of that, people are allowed now to say, "This is people are allowed now to say, "This is people are allowed now to say, "This is more beautiful than this." And a more beautiful than this." And a more beautiful than this." And a beautiful building is more beautiful beautiful building is more beautiful beautiful building is more beautiful than an ugly building. And a beautiful than an ugly building. And a beautiful than an ugly building. And a beautiful website is worth creating. This is what website is worth creating. This is what website is worth creating. This is what Joe Jebia and the National Design Studio Joe Jebia and the National Design Studio Joe Jebia and the National Design Studio team are doing is saying we believe that team are doing is saying we believe that team are doing is saying we believe that more beautiful experiences on the more beautiful experiences on the more beautiful experiences on the internet reflect the dignity of being an internet reflect the dignity of being an internet reflect the dignity of being an American citizen. And that is what we American citizen. And that is what we American citizen. And that is what we want. So we're going to put in effort want. So we're going to put in effort want. So we're going to put in effort from the best talent in the private from the best talent in the private from the best talent in the private sector to go make that for you because sector to go make that for you because sector to go make that for you because it's worth something. We're not going to it's worth something. We're not going to it's worth something. We're not going to pretend that a website has to be ugly. pretend that a website has to be ugly. pretend that a website has to be ugly. And anything big or small or glamorous And anything big or small or glamorous And anything big or small or glamorous or very pedestrian like a simple or very pedestrian like a simple or very pedestrian like a simple government website can be made more government website can be made more government website can be made more beautiful. And when it is, people beautiful. And when it is, people beautiful. And when it is, people appreciate it so much more because we do appreciate it so much more because we do appreciate it so much more because we do have this inherent have this inherent have this inherent yearning for beauty. And going back to yearning for beauty. And going back to yearning for beauty. And going back to real versus fake things, the fake things real versus fake things, the fake things real versus fake things, the fake things don't have beauty. They're orphans in a don't have beauty. They're orphans in a don't have beauty. They're orphans in a way. Nobody loves them. way. Nobody loves them. way. Nobody loves them. >> So, you think an appreciation for beauty >> So, you think an appreciation for beauty >> So, you think an appreciation for beauty is universal? is universal? is universal? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> It's interesting. I just read this book. >> It's interesting. I just read this book. >> It's interesting. I just read this book. um his name is the memoir of this guy um his name is the memoir of this guy um his name is the memoir of this guy named Kelly Johnson who's the one that named Kelly Johnson who's the one that named Kelly Johnson who's the one that started skunk works at Lockheed Martin started skunk works at Lockheed Martin started skunk works at Lockheed Martin >> and he he talked about that like he um >> and he he talked about that like he um >> and he he talked about that like he um he worked so much and worked so like his he worked so much and worked so like his he worked so much and worked so like his his work was so stressful and difficult his work was so stressful and difficult his work was so stressful and difficult he wound up having to like have part of he wound up having to like have part of he wound up having to like have part of his he got ulcers to have part of his his he got ulcers to have part of his his he got ulcers to have part of his stomach cut out just under unbelievable stomach cut out just under unbelievable stomach cut out just under unbelievable pressure he put on himself and he had to pressure he put on himself and he had to pressure he put on himself and he had to find a way to to literally take him out find a way to to literally take him out find a way to to literally take him out of his work so he'd like to spend time of his work so he'd like to spend time of his work so he'd like to spend time outdoors and he became a rancher and he outdoors and he became a rancher and he outdoors and he became a rancher and he said you know one of the most important said you know one of the most important said you know one of the most important things that ever happened in his life is things that ever happened in his life is things that ever happened in his life is just the fact that he liked watching the just the fact that he liked watching the just the fact that he liked watching the sunset every night sunset every night sunset every night >> and he's just like there's nothing more >> and he's just like there's nothing more >> and he's just like there's nothing more beautiful on the planet than a sunset beautiful on the planet than a sunset beautiful on the planet than a sunset and he's writing those words 40 years and he's writing those words 40 years and he's writing those words 40 years ago he's been dead for you know 30 years ago he's been dead for you know 30 years ago he's been dead for you know 30 years 35 years and it's just like that's still 35 years and it's just like that's still 35 years and it's just like that's still true today it was still true in time of true today it was still true in time of true today it was still true in time of Julius Caesar explain to me the Julius Caesar explain to me the Julius Caesar explain to me the connection because you you you talk connection because you you you talk connection because you you you talk about everything's fake which I agree about everything's fake which I agree about everything's fake which I agree with with with >> and at the same time you talk about >> and at the same time you talk about >> and at the same time you talk about taste and beauty so explain how those taste and beauty so explain how those taste and beauty so explain how those things connect like almost like taste things connect like almost like taste things connect like almost like taste and beauty I think the way you describe and beauty I think the way you describe and beauty I think the way you describe Taste was taste is the recognition of Taste was taste is the recognition of Taste was taste is the recognition of beauty. beauty. beauty. >> So explain how taste and beauty is an >> So explain how taste and beauty is an >> So explain how taste and beauty is an anecdote to everything being fake. anecdote to everything being fake. anecdote to everything being fake. >> Well, first of all, um just on the thing >> Well, first of all, um just on the thing >> Well, first of all, um just on the thing about sunsets, the one thing more about sunsets, the one thing more about sunsets, the one thing more beautiful than a sunset is a sunset with beautiful than a sunset is a sunset with beautiful than a sunset is a sunset with friends. Sunset with the homies. friends. Sunset with the homies. friends. Sunset with the homies. >> Yeah. to paraphrase Cicero, >> Yeah. to paraphrase Cicero, >> Yeah. to paraphrase Cicero, >> you know, he he would say he would say >> you know, he he would say he would say >> you know, he he would say he would say something akin to it's a it's a great um something akin to it's a it's a great um something akin to it's a it's a great um joy to be looking at the beautiful stars joy to be looking at the beautiful stars joy to be looking at the beautiful stars tonight, but even better to be looking tonight, but even better to be looking tonight, but even better to be looking at them with you. Cicero in 50 BC wrote at them with you. Cicero in 50 BC wrote at them with you. Cicero in 50 BC wrote the last great treatise on friendship the last great treatise on friendship the last great treatise on friendship and we've been underestimating the and we've been underestimating the and we've been underestimating the importance of it ever since. And so one importance of it ever since. And so one importance of it ever since. And so one of the other things on the list of of the other things on the list of of the other things on the list of things that are real that can't be faked things that are real that can't be faked things that are real that can't be faked is friendship and having your friends is friendship and having your friends is friendship and having your friends come along for the journey and support come along for the journey and support come along for the journey and support you. Now, as to the question of why you. Now, as to the question of why you. Now, as to the question of why taste, beauty, discernment, elegance are taste, beauty, discernment, elegance are taste, beauty, discernment, elegance are antithetical to fake things. It's antithetical to fake things. It's antithetical to fake things. It's because fake things are not beautiful. because fake things are not beautiful. because fake things are not beautiful. It sounds like something that isn't It sounds like something that isn't It sounds like something that isn't necessarily true. You're like, well, in necessarily true. You're like, well, in necessarily true. You're like, well, in theory, someone could create something theory, someone could create something theory, someone could create something that's fake and it could be beautiful. that's fake and it could be beautiful. that's fake and it could be beautiful. In theory, yes. But it hasn't been done. In theory, yes. But it hasn't been done. In theory, yes. But it hasn't been done. In practice, I have not seen a company In practice, I have not seen a company In practice, I have not seen a company or a project that wasn't real that was or a project that wasn't real that was or a project that wasn't real that was also beautiful. So, I can't explain the also beautiful. So, I can't explain the also beautiful. So, I can't explain the mechanism, but empirically it is the mechanism, but empirically it is the mechanism, but empirically it is the case that fake things do not turn out case that fake things do not turn out case that fake things do not turn out beautiful. And I think it's because no beautiful. And I think it's because no beautiful. And I think it's because no one has put that love and care into them one has put that love and care into them one has put that love and care into them because why would you put the love and because why would you put the love and because why would you put the love and care if you are just going to buy the care if you are just going to buy the care if you are just going to buy the engagement engagement engagement anyway? On the flip side, it's that anyway? On the flip side, it's that anyway? On the flip side, it's that beautiful things can't be faked. You beautiful things can't be faked. You beautiful things can't be faked. You know, beauty is a scoreboard. It's a know, beauty is a scoreboard. It's a know, beauty is a scoreboard. It's a very obvious scoreboard. Someone who is very obvious scoreboard. Someone who is very obvious scoreboard. Someone who is healthy, who takes care of themselves, healthy, who takes care of themselves, healthy, who takes care of themselves, you see it right there. You can't you see it right there. You can't you see it right there. You can't pretend. And so, I think beauty is sort pretend. And so, I think beauty is sort pretend. And so, I think beauty is sort of like a stamp of authenticity. of like a stamp of authenticity. of like a stamp of authenticity. >> What's the business version of that? >> What's the business version of that? >> What's the business version of that? What is beautiful? Like, use an example What is beautiful? Like, use an example What is beautiful? Like, use an example of one of your your your clients like of one of your your your clients like of one of your your your clients like the effort they put into making their the effort they put into making their the effort they put into making their product more beautiful. like what would product more beautiful. like what would product more beautiful. like what would be something we can point to? be something we can point to? be something we can point to? >> I would suggest go to General Matters >> I would suggest go to General Matters >> I would suggest go to General Matters website. website. website. We and they and a talented team that We and they and a talented team that We and they and a talented team that slaved over this website slaved over this website slaved over this website for a long time. You know, some slaved for a long time. You know, some slaved for a long time. You know, some slaved more than others. I'm not saying I was more than others. I'm not saying I was more than others. I'm not saying I was in the minds making the website, but we in the minds making the website, but we in the minds making the website, but we all put so much thought and so much care all put so much thought and so much care all put so much thought and so much care into it and argued back and forth into it and argued back and forth into it and argued back and forth probably longer than we should have. And probably longer than we should have. And probably longer than we should have. And you see it and it's so simple. And then you see it and it's so simple. And then you see it and it's so simple. And then you go into the mission and the you go into the mission and the you go into the mission and the manifesto and it's so short and it took manifesto and it's so short and it took manifesto and it's so short and it took a lot of people. I mean the billable a lot of people. I mean the billable a lot of people. I mean the billable hours and cumulative IQ points that were hours and cumulative IQ points that were hours and cumulative IQ points that were spent on this are unfathomable and it spent on this are unfathomable and it spent on this are unfathomable and it ends up with something that is so ends up with something that is so ends up with something that is so simple, so elegant in my opinion, but simple, so elegant in my opinion, but simple, so elegant in my opinion, but you wouldn't have gotten there without you wouldn't have gotten there without you wouldn't have gotten there without going through that journey. You know, if going through that journey. You know, if going through that journey. You know, if somebody had just thrown up some kind of somebody had just thrown up some kind of somebody had just thrown up some kind of slop site and slop site and slop site and viodated the thing and put a bunch of viodated the thing and put a bunch of viodated the thing and put a bunch of random words that Claude wrote up there, random words that Claude wrote up there, random words that Claude wrote up there, I don't think you would get the same. I don't think you would get the same. I don't think you would get the same. >> Or even worse, use a template. >> Or even worse, use a template. >> Or even worse, use a template. >> You're anti- template. I've heard >> You're anti- template. I've heard >> You're anti- template. I've heard >> I'm anti- template. >> I'm anti- template. >> I'm anti- template. >> This is one of the most interesting >> This is one of the most interesting >> This is one of the most interesting ideas. Explain this. ideas. Explain this. ideas. Explain this. >> I do not use templates. >> I do not use templates. >> I do not use templates. >> Okay. But people come to you and they're >> Okay. But people come to you and they're >> Okay. But people come to you and they're like, "Okay, well, I'm a company. You like, "Okay, well, I'm a company. You like, "Okay, well, I'm a company. You work with other companies. They had this work with other companies. They had this work with other companies. They had this problem. I'm sure you have some kind of problem. I'm sure you have some kind of problem. I'm sure you have some kind of template for this problem." You're like, template for this problem." You're like, template for this problem." You're like, "No, we're going to start from a blank "No, we're going to start from a blank "No, we're going to start from a blank sheet of paper." explain your thinking sheet of paper." explain your thinking sheet of paper." explain your thinking on this. on this. on this. >> Two reasons. One is, yeah, I do get >> Two reasons. One is, yeah, I do get >> Two reasons. One is, yeah, I do get asked for templates a lot and I always asked for templates a lot and I always asked for templates a lot and I always say I don't have templates. I actually say I don't have templates. I actually say I don't have templates. I actually have to resist the temptation. I have to have to resist the temptation. I have to have to resist the temptation. I have to pass the marshmallow test to save myself pass the marshmallow test to save myself pass the marshmallow test to save myself time by using templates. I can make my time by using templates. I can make my time by using templates. I can make my life easier and have 20 more minutes at life easier and have 20 more minutes at life easier and have 20 more minutes at night to read by using more templates. night to read by using more templates. night to read by using more templates. And the reason I resist it is number And the reason I resist it is number And the reason I resist it is number one, no two situations are the same. And one, no two situations are the same. And one, no two situations are the same. And by pretending that they are, we miss by pretending that they are, we miss by pretending that they are, we miss that texture. At the beginning of this that texture. At the beginning of this that texture. At the beginning of this conversation, we talked about context conversation, we talked about context conversation, we talked about context and texture and respecting that. And I and texture and respecting that. And I and texture and respecting that. And I think that alpha comes from the little think that alpha comes from the little think that alpha comes from the little cracks in reality that only you can see cracks in reality that only you can see cracks in reality that only you can see and that you can exploit. And if you are and that you can exploit. And if you are and that you can exploit. And if you are just plastering over that with a just plastering over that with a just plastering over that with a templated version of something else, you templated version of something else, you templated version of something else, you are sacrificing the opportunity to be are sacrificing the opportunity to be are sacrificing the opportunity to be better. And I am sacrificing the better. And I am sacrificing the better. And I am sacrificing the opportunity to be better than my own opportunity to be better than my own opportunity to be better than my own work of 6 months ago. Why do I want to work of 6 months ago. Why do I want to work of 6 months ago. Why do I want to settle for the schlubby nonsense of the settle for the schlubby nonsense of the settle for the schlubby nonsense of the thing that I did when I was six months thing that I did when I was six months thing that I did when I was six months dumber that I am now? I'm not going to dumber that I am now? I'm not going to dumber that I am now? I'm not going to do that. So, I don't use templates. The do that. So, I don't use templates. The do that. So, I don't use templates. The second reason is second reason is second reason is we've talked about things that are we've talked about things that are we've talked about things that are inherently valuable. inherently valuable. inherently valuable. Inherently valuable to me is the idea Inherently valuable to me is the idea Inherently valuable to me is the idea that that that everything everything everything deserves deserves deserves originality and that there's a shortage originality and that there's a shortage originality and that there's a shortage of it in the world. Anything worth doing of it in the world. Anything worth doing of it in the world. Anything worth doing deserves originality. Now, if there's deserves originality. Now, if there's deserves originality. Now, if there's like a founder that I literally didn't like a founder that I literally didn't like a founder that I literally didn't care about, they would just, you know, care about, they would just, you know, care about, they would just, you know, by definition I would never work with, by definition I would never work with, by definition I would never work with, maybe I would toss them a template. But maybe I would toss them a template. But maybe I would toss them a template. But anybody that I care about, I would be anybody that I care about, I would be anybody that I care about, I would be insulting them by taking the shortcut insulting them by taking the shortcut insulting them by taking the shortcut and discounting their originality. And I and discounting their originality. And I and discounting their originality. And I would be insulting my own ability to would be insulting my own ability to would be insulting my own ability to continue generating new ideas. continue generating new ideas. continue generating new ideas. >> I found one of my all-time favorite >> I found one of my all-time favorite >> I found one of my all-time favorite quotes when I was reading the book 0ero quotes when I was reading the book 0ero quotes when I was reading the book 0ero to1. The quote says, "The single most to1. The quote says, "The single most to1. The quote says, "The single most powerful pattern I have noticed is that powerful pattern I have noticed is that powerful pattern I have noticed is that successful people find value [music] in successful people find value [music] in successful people find value [music] in unexpected places. And they do this by unexpected places. And they do this by unexpected places. And they do this by thinking about business from first thinking about business from first thinking about business from first principles instead of formulas. That is principles instead of formulas. That is principles instead of formulas. That is exactly what apploven has done with exactly what apploven has done with exactly what apploven has done with their advertising platform. Applovening their advertising platform. Applovening their advertising platform. Applovening connects you with over a billion connects you with over a billion connects you with over a billion potential new [music] customers inside potential new [music] customers inside potential new [music] customers inside mobile games. Apploving allows you to mobile games. Apploving allows you to mobile games. Apploving allows you to capture undivided attention. Apploven capture undivided attention. Apploven capture undivided attention. Apploven ads are full screen video ads that are ads are full screen video ads that are ads are full screen video ads that are watched for an average of 35 seconds. watched for an average of 35 seconds. watched for an average of 35 seconds. That is retention that blows other ad That is retention that blows other ad That is retention that blows other ad platforms out of the water. And you can platforms out of the water. And you can platforms out of the water. And you can launch on Apploven in minutes. You set launch on Apploven in minutes. You set launch on Apploven in minutes. You set the goal [music] and Apploven achieves the goal [music] and Apploven achieves the goal [music] and Apploven achieves it. There's no complex setup, no it. There's no complex setup, no it. There's no complex setup, no expertise needed, and AppLoven scales expertise needed, and AppLoven scales expertise needed, and AppLoven scales quickly. They can put your ads in front quickly. They can put your ads in front quickly. They can put your ads in front of over a billion potential customers. of over a billion potential customers. of over a billion potential customers. Other businesses have seen immediate Other businesses have seen immediate Other businesses have seen immediate results, have scaled to hundreds of results, have scaled to hundreds of results, have scaled to hundreds of thousands of dollars of spend per day thousands of dollars of spend per day thousands of dollars of spend per day and increase their revenue by millions. and increase their revenue by millions. and increase their revenue by millions. So, you want to get started quickly So, you want to get started quickly So, you want to get started quickly before all of your competitors are on before all of your competitors are on before all of your competitors are on Apploven. And you can do that by going Apploven. And you can do that by going Apploven. And you can do that by going to apploven.com. to apploven.com. to apploven.com. That's apploven.com. [music] >> I don't know if you're going to remember >> I don't know if you're going to remember this, but hearing you speak right now, this, but hearing you speak right now, this, but hearing you speak right now, there's actually templates in there's actually templates in there's actually templates in communication, too, which you see this communication, too, which you see this communication, too, which you see this with like there can be autocomplete with like there can be autocomplete with like there can be autocomplete because we just say the same stuff over because we just say the same stuff over because we just say the same stuff over and over again. So, you and I were at uh and over again. So, you and I were at uh and over again. So, you and I were at uh we were doing this event. Cognition is a we were doing this event. Cognition is a we were doing this event. Cognition is a a customer of yours. I'm friends with a customer of yours. I'm friends with a customer of yours. I'm friends with two of the founders. They asked me to two of the founders. They asked me to two of the founders. They asked me to come to this actually by pure chance come to this actually by pure chance come to this actually by pure chance this same hotel we're today. this same hotel we're today. this same hotel we're today. >> Was this the thing where I sent that >> Was this the thing where I sent that >> Was this the thing where I sent that email? email? email? >> I'm going to get to there. Exactly. This >> I'm going to get to there. Exactly. This >> I'm going to get to there. Exactly. This is ex this good. You do remember this. is ex this good. You do remember this. is ex this good. You do remember this. >> So they're like, "Hey, will you come do >> So they're like, "Hey, will you come do >> So they're like, "Hey, will you come do this event and like interview two this event and like interview two this event and like interview two founders for us?" I'm like, "Yeah, I founders for us?" I'm like, "Yeah, I founders for us?" I'm like, "Yeah, I love you guys. That's fine." And I don't love you guys. That's fine." And I don't love you guys. That's fine." And I don't check my email. Like I push everything check my email. Like I push everything check my email. Like I push everything to text. And my email is just like I to text. And my email is just like I to text. And my email is just like I literally just don't read it. And I just literally just don't read it. And I just literally just don't read it. And I just happened to see like one pop up and it happened to see like one pop up and it happened to see like one pop up and it says Lulu. And I'm like, "Oh, I'll read says Lulu. And I'm like, "Oh, I'll read says Lulu. And I'm like, "Oh, I'll read Lulu's email." I'm like, "I'm not Lulu's email." I'm like, "I'm not Lulu's email." I'm like, "I'm not reading this other stuff." And in this reading this other stuff." And in this reading this other stuff." And in this email, this had gone back and forth for email, this had gone back and forth for email, this had gone back and forth for like I missed the thread. And I guess like I missed the thread. And I guess like I missed the thread. And I guess this other founder's normal PR person this other founder's normal PR person this other founder's normal PR person had sent over like a list of questions had sent over like a list of questions had sent over like a list of questions like this are the questions that David like this are the questions that David like this are the questions that David We want David to ask the founder which We want David to ask the founder which We want David to ask the founder which is like first of all you're is like first of all you're is like first of all you're crazy if you think like you can put like crazy if you think like you can put like crazy if you think like you can put like control what's going to come out of my control what's going to come out of my control what's going to come out of my mouth and you I jump in this you're like mouth and you I jump in this you're like mouth and you I jump in this you're like these questions suck and David's David these questions suck and David's David these questions suck and David's David would never ask these questions like would never ask these questions like would never ask these questions like these aren't good enough but I realize these aren't good enough but I realize these aren't good enough but I realize and then you read them it's just like and then you read them it's just like and then you read them it's just like the most bland boring templated the most bland boring templated the most bland boring templated that you've ever seen. It's like I I that you've ever seen. It's like I I that you've ever seen. It's like I I think there is something why are we think there is something why are we think there is something why are we attracted to people like Palmer Lucky? attracted to people like Palmer Lucky? attracted to people like Palmer Lucky? We had Mark Andre on this uh this We had Mark Andre on this uh this We had Mark Andre on this uh this podcast and I was like I think the two podcast and I was like I think the two podcast and I was like I think the two best podcast guests at least in best podcast guests at least in best podcast guests at least in business-wise in terms of like what business-wise in terms of like what business-wise in terms of like what comes out of their mouth and how they're comes out of their mouth and how they're comes out of their mouth and how they're able to to speak is like I told Mark able to to speak is like I told Mark able to to speak is like I told Mark it's like you and Paul are lucky because it's like you and Paul are lucky because it's like you and Paul are lucky because it's like they're so fascinating and it's like they're so fascinating and it's like they're so fascinating and entertaining to uh to like hear speak entertaining to uh to like hear speak entertaining to uh to like hear speak and it's part of it is because they're and it's part of it is because they're and it's part of it is because they're not it's impossible to say that either not it's impossible to say that either not it's impossible to say that either of them or any of the good communication of them or any of the good communication of them or any of the good communication communicators even Elon or any else like communicators even Elon or any else like communicators even Elon or any else like that is like speaking in template form. that is like speaking in template form. that is like speaking in template form. they are truly unique and kind of they are truly unique and kind of they are truly unique and kind of leaning into what makes them unique. leaning into what makes them unique. leaning into what makes them unique. >> When you use a template, you are giving >> When you use a template, you are giving >> When you use a template, you are giving up on the possibility that you could be up on the possibility that you could be up on the possibility that you could be better. And I say this sometimes about better. And I say this sometimes about better. And I say this sometimes about AI writing, your AI is a wonderful tool. AI writing, your AI is a wonderful tool. AI writing, your AI is a wonderful tool. I use it all the time. But [snorts] if I use it all the time. But [snorts] if I use it all the time. But [snorts] if you are relying on AI to write for you you are relying on AI to write for you you are relying on AI to write for you and to generate ideas for you, you are and to generate ideas for you, you are and to generate ideas for you, you are putting yourself at sea level or you're putting yourself at sea level or you're putting yourself at sea level or you're putting yourself at the level of anyone putting yourself at the level of anyone putting yourself at the level of anyone else in the population who wants to pay else in the population who wants to pay else in the population who wants to pay fractions of a cent for a token to get fractions of a cent for a token to get fractions of a cent for a token to get the same out you know similar output the same out you know similar output the same out you know similar output from the same shared brain. So if you from the same shared brain. So if you from the same shared brain. So if you are far below average you should do that are far below average you should do that are far below average you should do that because average is better than you. But because average is better than you. But because average is better than you. But if you believe that you can be even a if you believe that you can be even a if you believe that you can be even a little bit better than average, you little bit better than average, you little bit better than average, you would be robbing yourself to do that. would be robbing yourself to do that. would be robbing yourself to do that. And actually Ralph Waldo Emerson calls And actually Ralph Waldo Emerson calls And actually Ralph Waldo Emerson calls it a form of suicide because in it a form of suicide because in it a form of suicide because in imitating others, which is what a imitating others, which is what a imitating others, which is what a template is, you are killing your own template is, you are killing your own template is, you are killing your own ideas. You know what are we? ideas. You know what are we? ideas. You know what are we? What are we if not a unique combination What are we if not a unique combination What are we if not a unique combination of beliefs, ideas, feelings? Like if you of beliefs, ideas, feelings? Like if you of beliefs, ideas, feelings? Like if you were really to unpack the soul that we were really to unpack the soul that we were really to unpack the soul that we have, it's these things. I believe that have, it's these things. I believe that have, it's these things. I believe that there's a, you know, more special spark there's a, you know, more special spark there's a, you know, more special spark of life too. But if you take that and of life too. But if you take that and of life too. But if you take that and you mute it, you are killing a really you mute it, you are killing a really you mute it, you are killing a really sacred part of yourself. So I can sacred part of yourself. So I can sacred part of yourself. So I can understand why he would say imitation is understand why he would say imitation is understand why he would say imitation is suicide. and using templates is robbing suicide. and using templates is robbing suicide. and using templates is robbing yourself of the possibility that you yourself of the possibility that you yourself of the possibility that you could ever be better than the last thing could ever be better than the last thing could ever be better than the last thing and that's a shame. and that's a shame. and that's a shame. >> Okay. So, you are the world's leading >> Okay. So, you are the world's leading >> Okay. So, you are the world's leading expert in terms of founder CEO comms, expert in terms of founder CEO comms, expert in terms of founder CEO comms, right? You also do crisis comms for the right? You also do crisis comms for the right? You also do crisis comms for the same companies as well. So I need to same companies as well. So I need to same companies as well. So I need to make sure I understand the way you think make sure I understand the way you think make sure I understand the way you think about this based on not only the work about this based on not only the work about this based on not only the work you've done in the past and the c the you've done in the past and the c the you've done in the past and the c the clients that I know of but also this clients that I know of but also this clients that I know of but also this essay that you wrote where is the proper essay that you wrote where is the proper essay that you wrote where is the proper reading of that essay that everything is reading of that essay that everything is reading of that essay that everything is fake is that you need to lean into the fake is that you need to lean into the fake is that you need to lean into the more distinct parts of yourself more distinct parts of yourself more distinct parts of yourself >> is that what you're doing with your >> is that what you're doing with your >> is that what you're doing with your customers or your clients rather customers or your clients rather customers or your clients rather >> yeah I am leaning into things that only >> yeah I am leaning into things that only >> yeah I am leaning into things that only I can do and there are people many of I can do and there are people many of I can do and there are people many of them who are smarter than me or more them who are smarter than me or more them who are smarter than me or more sophisticated or better connected or sophisticated or better connected or sophisticated or better connected or more experienced or whatever it is, but more experienced or whatever it is, but more experienced or whatever it is, but the combination of things that together the combination of things that together the combination of things that together I feel uniquely suited to do. I need to I feel uniquely suited to do. I need to I feel uniquely suited to do. I need to do as much of that as possible and it do as much of that as possible and it do as much of that as possible and it has to be me. There's a million ways you has to be me. There's a million ways you has to be me. There's a million ways you could get something else from not me. could get something else from not me. could get something else from not me. But if you want to build a movement But if you want to build a movement But if you want to build a movement around a technology that has around a technology that has around a technology that has civilizational importance, this is what civilizational importance, this is what civilizational importance, this is what I'm here to do. this is what I live to I'm here to do. this is what I live to I'm here to do. this is what I live to do. You know, it's sort of like your do. You know, it's sort of like your do. You know, it's sort of like your thing. You've got the one thing. I'm not thing. You've got the one thing. I'm not thing. You've got the one thing. I'm not trying to compete with other people trying to compete with other people trying to compete with other people doing other things. It's like this doing other things. It's like this doing other things. It's like this specific thing. And any of the founders specific thing. And any of the founders specific thing. And any of the founders that we're talking about, they have been that we're talking about, they have been that we're talking about, they have been put on earth to do a thing that needs put on earth to do a thing that needs put on earth to do a thing that needs doing. doing. doing. They're the ones. Why would you ever put They're the ones. Why would you ever put They're the ones. Why would you ever put yourself on the same level as something yourself on the same level as something yourself on the same level as something that can be faked? And now that we are that can be faked? And now that we are that can be faked? And now that we are inundated with all of this fake inundated with all of this fake it is really important to stand out so it is really important to stand out so that you can attract your people. You that you can attract your people. You that you can attract your people. You kind of have to fight your way through kind of have to fight your way through kind of have to fight your way through the fray and through the noise to even the fray and through the noise to even the fray and through the noise to even get their attention. And that's another get their attention. And that's another get their attention. And that's another part of it, too. part of it, too. part of it, too. >> Do you know who Dana White is? >> Do you know who Dana White is? >> Do you know who Dana White is? >> Mhm. Okay. >> Mhm. Okay. >> Mhm. Okay. >> Yeah, I saw your >> Yeah, I saw your >> Yeah, I saw your >> Yeah. I think he's a perfect example of >> Yeah. I think he's a perfect example of >> Yeah. I think he's a perfect example of this. Like I I would tell a lot of this. Like I I would tell a lot of this. Like I I would tell a lot of founders like you should just go watch founders like you should just go watch founders like you should just go watch his press conferences. I don't care if his press conferences. I don't care if his press conferences. I don't care if you don't like fighting. That's fine. you don't like fighting. That's fine. you don't like fighting. That's fine. Just watch the press conferences he does Just watch the press conferences he does Just watch the press conferences he does after the fights. And like that's how after the fights. And like that's how after the fights. And like that's how you should communicate. There's two you should communicate. There's two you should communicate. There's two things that came to mind when you were things that came to mind when you were things that came to mind when you were just speaking. One, he has this idea just speaking. One, he has this idea just speaking. One, he has this idea where like the most important thing is where like the most important thing is where like the most important thing is like you have to know who you are. like you have to know who you are. like you have to know who you are. That's step one. He's like don't do That's step one. He's like don't do That's step one. He's like don't do anything else until you figure out who anything else until you figure out who anything else until you figure out who the hell who you truly are. And two, the hell who you truly are. And two, the hell who you truly are. And two, figure out what you truly want to do in figure out what you truly want to do in figure out what you truly want to do in life. And he goes once you make those life. And he goes once you make those life. And he goes once you make those two decisions. He's got like this simple two decisions. He's got like this simple two decisions. He's got like this simple genius. It's like you just wake up every genius. It's like you just wake up every genius. It's like you just wake up every day and get after it. Like you already day and get after it. Like you already day and get after it. Like you already you know who you are and what you want you know who you are and what you want you know who you are and what you want to do. So you just do that every day and to do. So you just do that every day and to do. So you just do that every day and you never stop. you never stop. you never stop. >> And I think those two things like >> And I think those two things like >> And I think those two things like knowing exactly who you are, what you knowing exactly who you are, what you knowing exactly who you are, what you want to do, and then finding that want to do, and then finding that want to do, and then finding that opportunity that only you can do. Mhm. opportunity that only you can do. Mhm. opportunity that only you can do. Mhm. >> That is the most important thing. If >> That is the most important thing. If >> That is the most important thing. If you're trying to do great things and you're trying to do great things and you're trying to do great things and distinct things in the world, you have distinct things in the world, you have distinct things in the world, you have to do those first. to do those first. to do those first. >> Yeah. And sometimes when you see repeat >> Yeah. And sometimes when you see repeat >> Yeah. And sometimes when you see repeat entrepreneurs who are successful, it is entrepreneurs who are successful, it is entrepreneurs who are successful, it is a version of that company. So William a version of that company. So William a version of that company. So William Hockey who did Plaid now doing column Hockey who did Plaid now doing column Hockey who did Plaid now doing column feels like a natural evolution of one feels like a natural evolution of one feels like a natural evolution of one big mission for his life. I think that big mission for his life. I think that big mission for his life. I think that it's possible to have multiple companies it's possible to have multiple companies it's possible to have multiple companies but one meta company, if you will. I but one meta company, if you will. I but one meta company, if you will. I always ask these kind of founders like always ask these kind of founders like always ask these kind of founders like what's the last company what's the last company what's the last company >> because yeah there's all like you can >> because yeah there's all like you can >> because yeah there's all like you can see it in a lot of these examples like see it in a lot of these examples like see it in a lot of these examples like you had to go through these experiences you had to go through these experiences you had to go through these experiences but there's like one company that just but there's like one company that just but there's like one company that just like you wouldn't sell there's just not like you wouldn't sell there's just not like you wouldn't sell there's just not this is the last thing I work on and I this is the last thing I work on and I this is the last thing I work on and I think that's when you've truly found think that's when you've truly found think that's when you've truly found your mission. What you said about Dana your mission. What you said about Dana your mission. What you said about Dana White reminds me of something, which is White reminds me of something, which is White reminds me of something, which is I actually use Dana White, shout out I actually use Dana White, shout out I actually use Dana White, shout out Dana, as an example of what we talked Dana, as an example of what we talked Dana, as an example of what we talked about earlier where you're not hitting about earlier where you're not hitting about earlier where you're not hitting people over the head with the overt PR people over the head with the overt PR people over the head with the overt PR messaging that they're going to write messaging that they're going to write messaging that they're going to write off. You have the human story and then off. You have the human story and then off. You have the human story and then the thing that you're trying to sell is the thing that you're trying to sell is the thing that you're trying to sell is sort of in the background. So, um, maybe sort of in the background. So, um, maybe sort of in the background. So, um, maybe we call this like the Jetsons rule. we call this like the Jetsons rule. we call this like the Jetsons rule. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> He did this with MMA. That was the >> He did this with MMA. That was the >> He did this with MMA. That was the reality show reality show reality show before watching MMA was mainstream. before watching MMA was mainstream. before watching MMA was mainstream. Humans being interested in the lives and Humans being interested in the lives and Humans being interested in the lives and striving of other humans was mainstream. striving of other humans was mainstream. striving of other humans was mainstream. It always has been. And so the reality It always has been. And so the reality It always has been. And so the reality show gave us a way to follow along on show gave us a way to follow along on show gave us a way to follow along on the human journey of people training for the human journey of people training for the human journey of people training for these fights. these fights. these fights. And MMA was ambiently in the background. And MMA was ambiently in the background. And MMA was ambiently in the background. And if you watched a season of this, you And if you watched a season of this, you And if you watched a season of this, you got to know MMA. It's like people who got to know MMA. It's like people who got to know MMA. It's like people who watch I guess F1. They just get to know watch I guess F1. They just get to know watch I guess F1. They just get to know the show the show the show >> Netflix. Yeah. Whatever it's called. >> Netflix. Yeah. Whatever it's called. >> Netflix. Yeah. Whatever it's called. Driving to whatever. Driving to whatever. Driving to whatever. >> I I [laughter] watched it. I can't >> I I [laughter] watched it. I can't >> I I [laughter] watched it. I can't remember. remember. remember. >> That got me in F1. Yeah. I didn't care >> That got me in F1. Yeah. I didn't care >> That got me in F1. Yeah. I didn't care about F1 until this is why I learned about F1 until this is why I learned about F1 until this is why I learned drug dealing from the wire in the drug dealing from the wire in the drug dealing from the wire in the background. background. background. >> I'm kidding. I'm not a drug dealer. >> I'm kidding. I'm not a drug dealer. >> I'm kidding. I'm not a drug dealer. >> Um >> Um >> Um many examples of this where you actually many examples of this where you actually many examples of this where you actually become interested in a thing and absorb become interested in a thing and absorb become interested in a thing and absorb it because it's around the other stuff it because it's around the other stuff it because it's around the other stuff that you're interested in. that you're interested in. that you're interested in. >> The thing with Dana was interesting. We >> The thing with Dana was interesting. We >> The thing with Dana was interesting. We talked about this off camera, I think, talked about this off camera, I think, talked about this off camera, I think, after we recorded, but you and I just after we recorded, but you and I just after we recorded, but you and I just had lunch when we talked about the fact had lunch when we talked about the fact had lunch when we talked about the fact that learning from history is a form of that learning from history is a form of that learning from history is a form of leverage and that time is really the leverage and that time is really the leverage and that time is really the only filter you can trust and that if only filter you can trust and that if only filter you can trust and that if you wanted to know about persuasion or you wanted to know about persuasion or you wanted to know about persuasion or starting a movement, go read Cicero. starting a movement, go read Cicero. starting a movement, go read Cicero. Like these ideas, everything has been Like these ideas, everything has been Like these ideas, everything has been like kind of solved. You just have to go like kind of solved. You just have to go like kind of solved. You just have to go find them. One thing that Dana told me find them. One thing that Dana told me find them. One thing that Dana told me was interesting. It's like everybody was interesting. It's like everybody was interesting. It's like everybody told him like this isn't going to work. told him like this isn't going to work. told him like this isn't going to work. No one's going to watch these people No one's going to watch these people No one's going to watch these people fighting. And he's just like it's going fighting. And he's just like it's going fighting. And he's just like it's going to go everywhere because if for all of to go everywhere because if for all of to go everywhere because if for all of human history they human history they human history they >> I love watching people fighting >> I love watching people fighting >> I love watching people fighting >> for go back thousands of years it's like >> for go back thousands of years it's like >> for go back thousands of years it's like there if you have two men usually two there if you have two men usually two there if you have two men usually two men like they're going to come to some men like they're going to come to some men like they're going to come to some kind of combat. And the great thing kind of combat. And the great thing kind of combat. And the great thing about his sport which he realized that about his sport which he realized that about his sport which he realized that he could be global from day one is like he could be global from day one is like he could be global from day one is like you don't they don't you don't have to you don't they don't you don't have to you don't they don't you don't have to speak the same language. It's like I speak the same language. It's like I speak the same language. It's like I could watch it as American, you could could watch it as American, you could could watch it as American, you could watch as Brazilian, you could watch it watch as Brazilian, you could watch it watch as Brazilian, you could watch it as a Chinese. We're watching the same as a Chinese. We're watching the same as a Chinese. We're watching the same thing and we still understand what's thing and we still understand what's thing and we still understand what's going on. And he's just like no, of going on. And he's just like no, of going on. And he's just like no, of course this is going to work. course this is going to work. course this is going to work. >> Yeah. With my first company, the one >> Yeah. With my first company, the one >> Yeah. With my first company, the one where I was learning comms on the fly where I was learning comms on the fly where I was learning comms on the fly for a company retreat, we actually went for a company retreat, we actually went for a company retreat, we actually went to go train with UFC fighters. And we to go train with UFC fighters. And we to go train with UFC fighters. And we trained with the team of Uriah Faber, trained with the team of Uriah Faber, trained with the team of Uriah Faber, who's now in the Hall of Fame and who's now in the Hall of Fame and who's now in the Hall of Fame and created, pioneered the bantamweight created, pioneered the bantamweight created, pioneered the bantamweight category. And he and his team spent the category. And he and his team spent the category. And he and his team spent the day training with us, you know, day training with us, you know, day training with us, you know, physically, but also just talking about physically, but also just talking about physically, but also just talking about their mindset. And one of the things their mindset. And one of the things their mindset. And one of the things that stuck with me the most is nobody that stuck with me the most is nobody that stuck with me the most is nobody owes you anything. There are guys who owes you anything. There are guys who owes you anything. There are guys who show up uh at their gym with a backpack show up uh at their gym with a backpack show up uh at their gym with a backpack coming from Brazil because this is the coming from Brazil because this is the coming from Brazil because this is the only thing that they want to do or know only thing that they want to do or know only thing that they want to do or know how to do and they're they're going to how to do and they're they're going to how to do and they're they're going to do this and and they don't need a lot of do this and and they don't need a lot of do this and and they don't need a lot of infrastructure around them. They don't infrastructure around them. They don't infrastructure around them. They don't need for something to to tell them that need for something to to tell them that need for something to to tell them that they're ready. There's they're just they're ready. There's they're just they're ready. There's they're just going to go do it now. And then the going to go do it now. And then the going to go do it now. And then the other thing that they talked about was other thing that they talked about was other thing that they talked about was sometimes your big break is being called sometimes your big break is being called sometimes your big break is being called up for a fight on last notice on on last up for a fight on last notice on on last up for a fight on last notice on on last minute notice because you're not the minute notice because you're not the minute notice because you're not the person in the big letters but you're person in the big letters but you're person in the big letters but you're hoping to be and if the person is hurt hoping to be and if the person is hurt hoping to be and if the person is hurt or drops out or whatever it is which or drops out or whatever it is which or drops out or whatever it is which sometimes happens you might get a call sometimes happens you might get a call sometimes happens you might get a call on short notice and that is your moment on short notice and that is your moment on short notice and that is your moment and you have to be ready for that moment and you have to be ready for that moment and you have to be ready for that moment and so their mantra was don't get ready and so their mantra was don't get ready and so their mantra was don't get ready stay ready and your big fight could stay ready and your big fight could stay ready and your big fight could happen anytime which I think is a good happen anytime which I think is a good happen anytime which I think is a good just guiding principle for Okay, so I just guiding principle for Okay, so I just guiding principle for Okay, so I have these conversations selfishly have these conversations selfishly have these conversations selfishly because I get to sit across from like because I get to sit across from like because I get to sit across from like world-class experts and essentially just world-class experts and essentially just world-class experts and essentially just pepper them with questions and I'm pepper them with questions and I'm pepper them with questions and I'm looking for ideas I can then just apply looking for ideas I can then just apply looking for ideas I can then just apply to my business and then the people to my business and then the people to my business and then the people listening hopefully do the same. So listening hopefully do the same. So listening hopefully do the same. So usually people are building great usually people are building great usually people are building great founders build their careers off a founders build their careers off a founders build their careers off a handful of ideas. It's not 20, handful of ideas. It's not 20, handful of ideas. It's not 20, it's five or four or three. So when I it's five or four or three. So when I it's five or four or three. So when I think about you and thinking about okay, think about you and thinking about okay, think about you and thinking about okay, let me summarize your your handful of let me summarize your your handful of let me summarize your your handful of ideas and you tell me if I'm missing ideas and you tell me if I'm missing ideas and you tell me if I'm missing some or if I'm wrong in any. Number one, some or if I'm wrong in any. Number one, some or if I'm wrong in any. Number one, lean into what makes you distinctive. lean into what makes you distinctive. lean into what makes you distinctive. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Two, go direct and not in any particular >> Two, go direct and not in any particular >> Two, go direct and not in any particular order. Three, uh you have to simplify order. Three, uh you have to simplify order. Three, uh you have to simplify your message so it it spreads, right? your message so it it spreads, right? your message so it it spreads, right? And then four, you have to have some And then four, you have to have some And then four, you have to have some kind of mission. kind of mission. kind of mission. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> What am I missing? >> What am I missing? >> What am I missing? >> Trust yourself. This sounds very >> Trust yourself. This sounds very >> Trust yourself. This sounds very self-help kind of cheesy, but this is self-help kind of cheesy, but this is self-help kind of cheesy, but this is the message that you need to believe in the message that you need to believe in the message that you need to believe in yourself versus a hundred other people, yourself versus a hundred other people, yourself versus a hundred other people, a thousand other people, millions of a thousand other people, millions of a thousand other people, millions of other people. You need to have the other people. You need to have the other people. You need to have the actually insane confidence in your idea actually insane confidence in your idea actually insane confidence in your idea that you're willing to trust one person that you're willing to trust one person that you're willing to trust one person over everybody else. That is very hard over everybody else. That is very hard over everybody else. That is very hard to do, right? If you're looking at any to do, right? If you're looking at any to do, right? If you're looking at any kind of scenario and there's one guy kind of scenario and there's one guy kind of scenario and there's one guy saying this and a million people saying saying this and a million people saying saying this and a million people saying it can't be done, you might want to side it can't be done, you might want to side it can't be done, you might want to side with a million people, but like we've with a million people, but like we've with a million people, but like we've said, one man plus the truth is a said, one man plus the truth is a said, one man plus the truth is a majority. And you have to believe that majority. And you have to believe that majority. And you have to believe that you're that person and that what you're you're that person and that what you're you're that person and that what you're seeing is the truth and you have to seeing is the truth and you have to seeing is the truth and you have to pursue it. And then you have to stay pursue it. And then you have to stay pursue it. And then you have to stay with it because you can't compound with it because you can't compound with it because you can't compound something that changes. The way something that changes. The way something that changes. The way compounding works is that it has to be a compounding works is that it has to be a compounding works is that it has to be a set principle that then compounds. And set principle that then compounds. And set principle that then compounds. And if you change what that thing is, you if you change what that thing is, you if you change what that thing is, you start the clock again. and you start the start the clock again. and you start the start the clock again. and you start the compounding over again, it's not compounding over again, it's not compounding over again, it's not compounding. Compounding is incompatible compounding. Compounding is incompatible compounding. Compounding is incompatible with changing the thing that you're with changing the thing that you're with changing the thing that you're compounding. So, I I would say that compounding. So, I I would say that compounding. So, I I would say that that's the fifth quest. That's the um that's the fifth quest. That's the um that's the fifth quest. That's the um fifth point. And then one other I'll fifth point. And then one other I'll fifth point. And then one other I'll tell you what the takeaway is, but I'll tell you what the takeaway is, but I'll tell you what the takeaway is, but I'll actually illustrate it for you. I'm actually illustrate it for you. I'm actually illustrate it for you. I'm going to tell you about a sequence of going to tell you about a sequence of going to tell you about a sequence of events and then you're going to react to events and then you're going to react to events and then you're going to react to it. There's a man and a woman sort of it. There's a man and a woman sort of it. There's a man and a woman sort of older and they're immigrants from older and they're immigrants from older and they're immigrants from Europe. Um, they're living in the US. Europe. Um, they're living in the US. Europe. Um, they're living in the US. Um, I forget where, but they don't have Um, I forget where, but they don't have Um, I forget where, but they don't have a lot of money. Their son is in an a lot of money. Their son is in an a lot of money. Their son is in an insane asylum and, uh, it's his insane asylum and, uh, it's his insane asylum and, uh, it's his birthday. He's he's been put in this birthday. He's he's been put in this birthday. He's he's been put in this asylum because he has a a he's suicidal. asylum because he has a a he's suicidal. asylum because he has a a he's suicidal. He has this mental illness, a form of He has this mental illness, a form of He has this mental illness, a form of schizophrenia or something adjacent. schizophrenia or something adjacent. schizophrenia or something adjacent. It's called referential mania. And so, It's called referential mania. And so, It's called referential mania. And so, he's like super paranoid. It means that he's like super paranoid. It means that he's like super paranoid. It means that he thinks that everything that happens he thinks that everything that happens he thinks that everything that happens has something to do with him. and he has something to do with him. and he has something to do with him. and he sees conspiracies everywhere and so um sees conspiracies everywhere and so um sees conspiracies everywhere and so um he is tortured by this. he is tortured by this. he is tortured by this. It's his birthday and so they go and It's his birthday and so they go and It's his birthday and so they go and they buy him a birthday gift and they're they buy him a birthday gift and they're they buy him a birthday gift and they're trying to figure out what to get him. So trying to figure out what to get him. So trying to figure out what to get him. So they get these like jellies and they go they get these like jellies and they go they get these like jellies and they go to take it to him and um the asylum to take it to him and um the asylum to take it to him and um the asylum won't let them come in. They say, "I'm won't let them come in. They say, "I'm won't let them come in. They say, "I'm sorry, he's had another attempt sorry, he's had another attempt sorry, he's had another attempt recently. He doesn't want to see you." recently. He doesn't want to see you." recently. He doesn't want to see you." So they go home and that night they're So they go home and that night they're So they go home and that night they're thinking about their memories and the thinking about their memories and the thinking about their memories and the father says, "We have to get him out of father says, "We have to get him out of father says, "We have to get him out of there." So they're they're at the there." So they're they're at the there." So they're they're at the kitchen table. It's really late. It's kitchen table. It's really late. It's kitchen table. It's really late. It's like midnight or something and um the like midnight or something and um the like midnight or something and um the phone rings phone rings phone rings and and and they're surprised. The woman picks it up they're surprised. The woman picks it up they're surprised. The woman picks it up and there's a little girl. The little and there's a little girl. The little and there's a little girl. The little girl says, "Charlie. I'm looking for girl says, "Charlie. I'm looking for girl says, "Charlie. I'm looking for Charlie." And the woman says, "Um, no, Charlie." And the woman says, "Um, no, Charlie." And the woman says, "Um, no, sorry. you must have dialed the wrong sorry. you must have dialed the wrong sorry. you must have dialed the wrong number. And she she hangs it up and she number. And she she hangs it up and she number. And she she hangs it up and she and the man continue their conversation and the man continue their conversation and the man continue their conversation and she says, "In the morning, we'll go and she says, "In the morning, we'll go and she says, "In the morning, we'll go get him out." And then the phone rings get him out." And then the phone rings get him out." And then the phone rings again and it's the end of the story. again and it's the end of the story. again and it's the end of the story. >> What do you want me to do with this? >> What do you want me to do with this? >> What do you want me to do with this? >> Tell me your reactions to the story. >> Tell me your reactions to the story. >> Tell me your reactions to the story. >> I don't have one. >> I don't have one. >> I don't have one. >> What are your questions? >> What are your questions? >> What are your questions? >> It's incomplete. Like who's like who was >> It's incomplete. Like who's like who was >> It's incomplete. Like who's like who was the little girl? What who's the person the little girl? What who's the person the little girl? What who's the person that called back? Was this the same that called back? Was this the same that called back? Was this the same little girl? What happens to their son? little girl? What happens to their son? little girl? What happens to their son? >> It's not incomplete. It's a complete >> It's not incomplete. It's a complete >> It's not incomplete. It's a complete story. It's a story called Signs and story. It's a story called Signs and story. It's a story called Signs and Symbols by Vladimir Navakov. And I think Symbols by Vladimir Navakov. And I think Symbols by Vladimir Navakov. And I think the message from that story is if we the message from that story is if we the message from that story is if we don't have a coher a coherent story, we don't have a coher a coherent story, we don't have a coher a coherent story, we desperately try to fill it in. If we're desperately try to fill it in. If we're desperately try to fill it in. If we're not given a story, we try to make a not given a story, we try to make a not given a story, we try to make a story out of it. What I told you was a story out of it. What I told you was a story out of it. What I told you was a bunch of facts, each of which could have bunch of facts, each of which could have bunch of facts, each of which could have stood alone. You know, wrong numbers stood alone. You know, wrong numbers stood alone. You know, wrong numbers happen all the time. Who do we care? happen all the time. Who do we care? happen all the time. Who do we care? Who's the little girl? It's just wrong Who's the little girl? It's just wrong Who's the little girl? It's just wrong number. number. number. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. What happens to the son? I mean, either What happens to the son? I mean, either What happens to the son? I mean, either he lives or he dies or I just told you he lives or he dies or I just told you he lives or he dies or I just told you like a bunch of information. Just take like a bunch of information. Just take like a bunch of information. Just take that information and go. But we can't. I that information and go. But we can't. I that information and go. But we can't. I read that story before bed and I stayed read that story before bed and I stayed read that story before bed and I stayed up thinking about all of the possible up thinking about all of the possible up thinking about all of the possible things it could mean. And in the story, things it could mean. And in the story, things it could mean. And in the story, there's way more detail. You can pick at there's way more detail. You can pick at there's way more detail. You can pick at things like the color of the jellies and things like the color of the jellies and things like the color of the jellies and he forgot the keys and all of this. he forgot the keys and all of this. he forgot the keys and all of this. >> And what it says to me is that we all >> And what it says to me is that we all >> And what it says to me is that we all have a form of referential mania. You have a form of referential mania. You have a form of referential mania. You know, we actually have what in this know, we actually have what in this know, we actually have what in this young man was a severe mental illness, young man was a severe mental illness, young man was a severe mental illness, but we have a version of it, which is we but we have a version of it, which is we but we have a version of it, which is we need to believe that things around us need to believe that things around us need to believe that things around us are pointing to something. And if we're are pointing to something. And if we're are pointing to something. And if we're not told what that is, we will try to not told what that is, we will try to not told what that is, we will try to fill it in ourselves because our brains fill it in ourselves because our brains fill it in ourselves because our brains crave a story. So, if you're a founder crave a story. So, if you're a founder crave a story. So, if you're a founder and you're giving people a bunch of and you're giving people a bunch of and you're giving people a bunch of information, this is what we do. I hired information, this is what we do. I hired information, this is what we do. I hired this person. We're opening an office this person. We're opening an office this person. We're opening an office here. Here's some current events. We here. Here's some current events. We here. Here's some current events. We fundraised. People will weave that into fundraised. People will weave that into fundraised. People will weave that into a narrative whether you want them to or a narrative whether you want them to or a narrative whether you want them to or not. not. not. So that's not in your control. The thing So that's not in your control. The thing So that's not in your control. The thing in your control is whether you get to in your control is whether you get to in your control is whether you get to decide what that story is and fill it in decide what that story is and fill it in decide what that story is and fill it in for them and give them a sense of for them and give them a sense of for them and give them a sense of satisfaction and completion and feeling satisfaction and completion and feeling satisfaction and completion and feeling like, okay, I understand it. Here's like, okay, I understand it. Here's like, okay, I understand it. Here's where this is going. Therefore, here's where this is going. Therefore, here's where this is going. Therefore, here's what likely comes next. You know, if I what likely comes next. You know, if I what likely comes next. You know, if I had told you this story in a slightly had told you this story in a slightly had told you this story in a slightly different form, you would have maybe different form, you would have maybe different form, you would have maybe assumed I could have told you the same assumed I could have told you the same assumed I could have told you the same facts in a different way that would make facts in a different way that would make facts in a different way that would make you assume that the sun was going to you assume that the sun was going to you assume that the sun was going to meet a bad end or that there would be a meet a bad end or that there would be a meet a bad end or that there would be a happy ending or whatever. I could have happy ending or whatever. I could have happy ending or whatever. I could have made you believe any of those things made you believe any of those things made you believe any of those things with the same set of facts. And this is with the same set of facts. And this is with the same set of facts. And this is what the founders often are not paying what the founders often are not paying what the founders often are not paying enough attention to. It's the space in enough attention to. It's the space in enough attention to. It's the space in between the facts that ties them into a between the facts that ties them into a between the facts that ties them into a story that is our responsibility to fill story that is our responsibility to fill story that is our responsibility to fill in because if you let people fill it in in because if you let people fill it in in because if you let people fill it in halfhazardly, they might end up with any halfhazardly, they might end up with any halfhazardly, they might end up with any conclusion that you don't control. conclusion that you don't control. conclusion that you don't control. >> I think it's a perfect place to end. >> I think it's a perfect place to end. >> I think it's a perfect place to end. Lulu, thanks for joining us. Lulu, thanks for joining us. Lulu, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please >> I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please >> I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please remember to subscribe wherever you're remember to subscribe wherever you're remember to subscribe wherever you're listening and leave a review. And make listening and leave a review. And make listening and leave a review. And make sure you listen to my other podcast, sure you listen to my other podcast, sure you listen to my other podcast, Founders. For almost a decade, I've Founders. For almost a decade, I've Founders. For almost a decade, I've obsessively read over 400 biographies of obsessively read over 400 biographies of obsessively read over 400 biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs, history's greatest entrepreneurs, history's greatest entrepreneurs, searching for ideas that you can use in searching for ideas that you can use in searching for ideas that you can use in your work. Most of the guests you hear your work. Most of the guests you hear your work. Most of the guests you hear on this show first found me through on this show first found me through on this show first found me through Founders.