The collapse of modern attention (and how to get it back) - Cal Newport

Dude, you must be feeling like Cassandra Dude, you must be feeling like Cassandra at the moment. So precient, the at the moment. So precient, the at the moment. So precient, the distraction, the necessity of deep work, distraction, the necessity of deep work, distraction, the necessity of deep work, the inherent bombardment of our the inherent bombardment of our the inherent bombardment of our attention. Do you do you feel like you attention. Do you do you feel like you attention. Do you do you feel like you saw the future earlier than what even at saw the future earlier than what even at saw the future earlier than what even at the time maybe felt late with deep work the time maybe felt late with deep work the time maybe felt late with deep work and focusing on quality over quantity and focusing on quality over quantity and focusing on quality over quantity and stuff? and stuff? and stuff? >> I mean, I think part of what I noticed >> I mean, I think part of what I noticed >> I mean, I think part of what I noticed was the present was crazy to me and no was the present was crazy to me and no was the present was crazy to me and no one else recognized it. So, it was less one else recognized it. So, it was less one else recognized it. So, it was less even predicting the future. I I I feel even predicting the future. I I I feel even predicting the future. I I I feel like there was a time, god, like 10 like there was a time, god, like 10 like there was a time, god, like 10 years ago now, where I was looking years ago now, where I was looking years ago now, where I was looking around and yeah, saying two things. One, around and yeah, saying two things. One, around and yeah, saying two things. One, social media doesn't make sense. Why are social media doesn't make sense. Why are social media doesn't make sense. Why are we all pretending like this is at the we all pretending like this is at the we all pretending like this is at the the center of democracy and civic life the center of democracy and civic life the center of democracy and civic life and all business and we all have to be and all business and we all have to be and all business and we all have to be on here all the time? And two, email on here all the time? And two, email on here all the time? And two, email doesn't make sense. Not what was going doesn't make sense. Not what was going doesn't make sense. Not what was going to happen in the future. I'm just like to happen in the future. I'm just like to happen in the future. I'm just like looking at the way we're working today looking at the way we're working today looking at the way we're working today with email and Slack and Teams was with email and Slack and Teams was with email and Slack and Teams was coming. Like this completely does not coming. Like this completely does not coming. Like this completely does not make sense. You're switching your make sense. You're switching your make sense. You're switching your context once every two or three minutes. context once every two or three minutes. context once every two or three minutes. this is a terrible way to actually use this is a terrible way to actually use this is a terrible way to actually use your brain. So, I never thought of your brain. So, I never thought of your brain. So, I never thought of myself as predicting the future as much myself as predicting the future as much myself as predicting the future as much as just telling people what was going on as just telling people what was going on as just telling people what was going on then didn't make sense. And everyone then didn't make sense. And everyone then didn't make sense. And everyone thought I was crazy. And 10 years later, thought I was crazy. And 10 years later, thought I was crazy. And 10 years later, it just kind of jumped from I was crazy it just kind of jumped from I was crazy it just kind of jumped from I was crazy to it's common sense. So, it's not even to it's common sense. So, it's not even to it's common sense. So, it's not even that interesting that I'm saying it that interesting that I'm saying it that interesting that I'm saying it anymore. So, I kind of skipped the part anymore. So, I kind of skipped the part anymore. So, I kind of skipped the part where where where >> where it sounded precient. >> where it sounded precient. >> where it sounded precient. >> Do you feel vindicated? >> Do you feel vindicated? >> Do you feel vindicated? >> Um, I think certainly on a couple >> Um, I think certainly on a couple >> Um, I think certainly on a couple issues. The social media issue was a big issues. The social media issue was a big issues. The social media issue was a big one because I used to get a lot of flack one because I used to get a lot of flack one because I used to get a lot of flack for that for for going out and I wasn't for that for for going out and I wasn't for that for for going out and I wasn't even saying the social media was bad or even saying the social media was bad or even saying the social media was bad or that no one should use it. Really, what that no one should use it. Really, what that no one should use it. Really, what I was pushing back on was just the idea I was pushing back on was just the idea I was pushing back on was just the idea of ubiquity, the idea that everyone had of ubiquity, the idea that everyone had of ubiquity, the idea that everyone had to use it. I said, "This doesn't make to use it. I said, "This doesn't make to use it. I said, "This doesn't make sense. I get there's some people this sense. I get there's some people this sense. I get there's some people this makes sense for. There's a lot of makes sense for. There's a lot of makes sense for. There's a lot of technologies that have markets that make technologies that have markets that make technologies that have markets that make sense for it, but why is there this sense for it, but why is there this sense for it, but why is there this pressure for everyone to be on these pressure for everyone to be on these pressure for everyone to be on these services? This is not going to a good services? This is not going to a good services? This is not going to a good place. They're they're spending a lot of place. They're they're spending a lot of place. They're they're spending a lot of money to mine attention and they're money to mine attention and they're money to mine attention and they're going to get better at it, right? And at going to get better at it, right? And at going to get better at it, right? And at the time this was considered uh crazy. the time this was considered uh crazy. the time this was considered uh crazy. What do you mean like you wouldn't use What do you mean like you wouldn't use What do you mean like you wouldn't use social media? I wrote a New York Times social media? I wrote a New York Times social media? I wrote a New York Times oped back I looked this up the other oped back I looked this up the other oped back I looked this up the other day. It was 2016. day. It was 2016. day. It was 2016. And it argued And it argued And it argued maybe social media is not the biggest maybe social media is not the biggest maybe social media is not the biggest thing for a young person to focus on if thing for a young person to focus on if thing for a young person to focus on if they're thinking about their career. they're thinking about their career. they're thinking about their career. That's what it was. It was like focus on That's what it was. It was like focus on That's what it was. It was like focus on your career instead of social media. your career instead of social media. your career instead of social media. Actually doing things well is what Actually doing things well is what Actually doing things well is what really matters. And you would think, you really matters. And you would think, you really matters. And you would think, you know, that I had just come on and said know, that I had just come on and said know, that I had just come on and said like, "America has an idea is done and like, "America has an idea is done and like, "America has an idea is done and grandmother should be kicked." Like grandmother should be kicked." Like grandmother should be kicked." Like people were upset about this. The New people were upset about this. The New people were upset about this. The New York Times commissioned a response op-ed York Times commissioned a response op-ed York Times commissioned a response op-ed two weeks later that was two weeks later that was two weeks later that was >> that went through mine. I mean it and >> that went through mine. I mean it and >> that went through mine. I mean it and said this is what is wrong about Cal said this is what is wrong about Cal said this is what is wrong about Cal Newport's op-ed or whatever because it Newport's op-ed or whatever because it Newport's op-ed or whatever because it made such a fear to suggest it. And made such a fear to suggest it. And made such a fear to suggest it. And today it's it's boring to suggest like h today it's it's boring to suggest like h today it's it's boring to suggest like h you know social media has problems and you know social media has problems and you know social media has problems and most people probably shouldn't use it. most people probably shouldn't use it. most people probably shouldn't use it. People agree with that. The one that People agree with that. The one that People agree with that. The one that upsets me though, that one I feel like upsets me though, that one I feel like upsets me though, that one I feel like people have come along to and more and people have come along to and more and people have come along to and more and more people are being much more more people are being much more more people are being much more selective and minimalist about their selective and minimalist about their selective and minimalist about their social media. The distraction email, social media. The distraction email, social media. The distraction email, Slack, constantly jumping back and forth Slack, constantly jumping back and forth Slack, constantly jumping back and forth between different things. between different things. between different things. >> That just got worse. I mean, I think >> That just got worse. I mean, I think >> That just got worse. I mean, I think people recognize it now. This is people recognize it now. This is people recognize it now. This is probably not a good way to work, but I probably not a good way to work, but I probably not a good way to work, but I thought because there was dollars and thought because there was dollars and thought because there was dollars and cents here, this is less productive from cents here, this is less productive from cents here, this is less productive from an economic productivity standpoint to an economic productivity standpoint to an economic productivity standpoint to have all of your workers changing their have all of your workers changing their have all of your workers changing their attention all the time. you're just attention all the time. you're just attention all the time. you're just getting a really low return on all the getting a really low return on all the getting a really low return on all the money you're investing in these human money you're investing in these human money you're investing in these human brains. So I thought, oh this is dollars brains. So I thought, oh this is dollars brains. So I thought, oh this is dollars and cents. This is the one that's going and cents. This is the one that's going and cents. This is the one that's going to change. Social media is fun. Like to change. Social media is fun. Like to change. Social media is fun. Like that's going to be hard to change that's going to be hard to change that's going to be hard to change people's behavior. But certainly this people's behavior. But certainly this people's behavior. But certainly this hyperdistraction thing in knowledge work hyperdistraction thing in knowledge work hyperdistraction thing in knowledge work that'll change because we're leaving that'll change because we're leaving that'll change because we're leaving money on the table. It hasn't changed at money on the table. It hasn't changed at money on the table. It hasn't changed at all. It's gotten worse. It's worse than all. It's gotten worse. It's worse than all. It's gotten worse. It's worse than it was. It's I'm at the 10 year it was. It's I'm at the 10 year it was. It's I'm at the 10 year anniversary now of the book deep work. anniversary now of the book deep work. anniversary now of the book deep work. So this like this month is the 10 year So this like this month is the 10 year So this like this month is the 10 year anniversary. anniversary. anniversary. >> Congratulations, dude. That's [ __ ] >> Congratulations, dude. That's [ __ ] >> Congratulations, dude. That's [ __ ] seinal. Like that that has become a part seinal. Like that that has become a part seinal. Like that that has become a part of the lexicon. That's really really of the lexicon. That's really really of the lexicon. That's really really cool. cool. cool. >> Yeah. But it's it's got me a little bit >> Yeah. But it's it's got me a little bit >> Yeah. But it's it's got me a little bit depressed because I've been doing this depressed because I've been doing this depressed because I've been doing this 10-year reflection like, okay, it's been 10-year reflection like, okay, it's been 10-year reflection like, okay, it's been 10 years and the book was a hit and it's 10 years and the book was a hit and it's 10 years and the book was a hit and it's millions of copies, etc. millions of copies, etc. millions of copies, etc. >> And that the issues I talked about are >> And that the issues I talked about are >> And that the issues I talked about are worse. They're like really worse than worse. They're like really worse than worse. They're like really worse than they were 10 years ago. they were 10 years ago. they were 10 years ago. >> So people know the problem, nothing has >> So people know the problem, nothing has >> So people know the problem, nothing has changed. changed. changed. >> What does the data suggest around the >> What does the data suggest around the >> What does the data suggest around the worstness of it? Now worstness of it? Now worstness of it? Now >> I've been the the one I've been >> I've been the the one I've been >> I've been the the one I've been following the study that I think is following the study that I think is following the study that I think is useful as a trend line is Microsoft useful as a trend line is Microsoft useful as a trend line is Microsoft actually does this annual report where actually does this annual report where actually does this annual report where they gather data from Microsoft 365. So they gather data from Microsoft 365. So they gather data from Microsoft 365. So it's like Office and Word and PowerPoint it's like Office and Word and PowerPoint it's like Office and Word and PowerPoint and Excel. Nowadays you use this sort of and Excel. Nowadays you use this sort of and Excel. Nowadays you use this sort of the web-based version of these is very the web-based version of these is very the web-based version of these is very common. So they can gather data from common. So they can gather data from common. So they can gather data from just tens of thousands of knowledge just tens of thousands of knowledge just tens of thousands of knowledge workers actually using all these workers actually using all these workers actually using all these different the tools. And the latest different the tools. And the latest different the tools. And the latest report they put out in 2025 now has the report they put out in 2025 now has the report they put out in 2025 now has the interruptions on average once every two interruptions on average once every two interruptions on average once every two minutes. minutes. minutes. So, it's just gotten out of control. So, So, it's just gotten out of control. So, So, it's just gotten out of control. So, switching to a communication tool once switching to a communication tool once switching to a communication tool once every two minutes. They also found in every two minutes. They also found in every two minutes. They also found in the latest report, and this is the latest report, and this is the latest report, and this is depressing to me as well, there's one depressing to me as well, there's one depressing to me as well, there's one time in the week where they see a time in the week where they see a time in the week where they see a notable rise in the use of the notable rise in the use of the notable rise in the use of the non-communication. So, actually using non-communication. So, actually using non-communication. So, actually using the core productivity tools like Word or the core productivity tools like Word or the core productivity tools like Word or PowerPoint and it's Saturday and Sunday PowerPoint and it's Saturday and Sunday PowerPoint and it's Saturday and Sunday morning. So, we've just put the work off morning. So, we've just put the work off morning. So, we've just put the work off until the weekend when there's no until the weekend when there's no until the weekend when there's no expectations of responses and spend the expectations of responses and spend the expectations of responses and spend the actual weekdays talking about work, actual weekdays talking about work, actual weekdays talking about work, which I just don't get. Like, that is which I just don't get. Like, that is which I just don't get. Like, that is not economically productive. Like, not economically productive. Like, not economically productive. Like, companies are leaving money on the companies are leaving money on the companies are leaving money on the table, but it's just where we are. We table, but it's just where we are. We table, but it's just where we are. We really can't quit this behavior. Isn't really can't quit this behavior. Isn't really can't quit this behavior. Isn't it interesting that you had to try and it interesting that you had to try and it interesting that you had to try and appeal to a very utilitarian approach appeal to a very utilitarian approach appeal to a very utilitarian approach for this? That you didn't say this is for this? That you didn't say this is for this? That you didn't say this is probably making staff miserable. Uh, probably making staff miserable. Uh, probably making staff miserable. Uh, it's not a good use of time. We've got it's not a good use of time. We've got it's not a good use of time. We've got some really strong evidence that some really strong evidence that some really strong evidence that suggests that doing one thing and suggests that doing one thing and suggests that doing one thing and getting better at it over a protracted getting better at it over a protracted getting better at it over a protracted period of time actually makes you feel period of time actually makes you feel period of time actually makes you feel more satisfied. You get into a flow more satisfied. You get into a flow more satisfied. You get into a flow state, etc., etc. You look back on your state, etc., etc. You look back on your state, etc., etc. You look back on your day and you can look at the things that day and you can look at the things that day and you can look at the things that you did. None of that, which is the much you did. None of that, which is the much you did. None of that, which is the much more immediate experiential more immediate experiential more immediate experiential uh way that people interface with uh way that people interface with uh way that people interface with distraction. You tried to appeal to the distraction. You tried to appeal to the distraction. You tried to appeal to the bottom line, which you thought, well, bottom line, which you thought, well, bottom line, which you thought, well, incentives, incentives, a line of incentives, incentives, a line of incentives, incentives, a line of [ __ ] incentives. Um, and that didn't [ __ ] incentives. Um, and that didn't [ __ ] incentives. Um, and that didn't work, which obviously means also that work, which obviously means also that work, which obviously means also that people's level of administrative burden people's level of administrative burden people's level of administrative burden misery is also coming along for the ride misery is also coming along for the ride misery is also coming along for the ride at the same time. Yeah, it's a it's a at the same time. Yeah, it's a it's a at the same time. Yeah, it's a it's a [ __ ] mess, dude. And I think, you [ __ ] mess, dude. And I think, you [ __ ] mess, dude. And I think, you know, even with what I do, it's not a know, even with what I do, it's not a know, even with what I do, it's not a very big team, but Slack Slack is like very big team, but Slack Slack is like very big team, but Slack Slack is like it's so useful it's so useful it's so useful and and and invites so much chaos at the same time. invites so much chaos at the same time. invites so much chaos at the same time. It is. And was Slack? Slack wouldn't It is. And was Slack? Slack wouldn't It is. And was Slack? Slack wouldn't have been that big during Deep Work. I'm have been that big during Deep Work. I'm have been that big during Deep Work. I'm going to guess going to guess going to guess >> it wasn't big. It wasn't out yet. I I >> it wasn't big. It wasn't out yet. I I >> it wasn't big. It wasn't out yet. I I talk in deep work about these very early talk in deep work about these very early talk in deep work about these very early instant messenger tools that no longer instant messenger tools that no longer instant messenger tools that no longer exist like Hip Chat that was just exist like Hip Chat that was just exist like Hip Chat that was just emerging among the programmer class. I emerging among the programmer class. I emerging among the programmer class. I was basically saying there be dragons was basically saying there be dragons was basically saying there be dragons like let's be careful about that. But I like let's be careful about that. But I like let's be careful about that. But I wrote an article about Slack years later wrote an article about Slack years later wrote an article about Slack years later uh when Slack was bought. So I think uh when Slack was bought. So I think uh when Slack was bought. So I think Salesforce bought Slack. I wrote an Salesforce bought Slack. I wrote an Salesforce bought Slack. I wrote an article about it for the New Yorker. And article about it for the New Yorker. And article about it for the New Yorker. And I think the title of that article gets I think the title of that article gets I think the title of that article gets to the core of the issue you're talking to the core of the issue you're talking to the core of the issue you're talking about. The title was the Slack is the about. The title was the Slack is the about. The title was the Slack is the right tool for the wrong way to work. right tool for the wrong way to work. right tool for the wrong way to work. And I think what happened, here's my And I think what happened, here's my And I think what happened, here's my whole theory on Slack, is that when whole theory on Slack, is that when whole theory on Slack, is that when email arrived, it moved us to this new email arrived, it moved us to this new email arrived, it moved us to this new style of collaboration that I call the style of collaboration that I call the style of collaboration that I call the hyper hyperactive hive mind where we'll hyper hyperactive hive mind where we'll hyper hyperactive hive mind where we'll just figure things out um on the go with just figure things out um on the go with just figure things out um on the go with ad hoc back and forth, unscheduled ad hoc back and forth, unscheduled ad hoc back and forth, unscheduled messaging, just sort of like shooting messaging, just sort of like shooting messaging, just sort of like shooting messages back and forth. We'll figure messages back and forth. We'll figure messages back and forth. We'll figure things out like we're all just kind of things out like we're all just kind of things out like we're all just kind of connected all the time. connected all the time. connected all the time. That's a terrible way to work for all That's a terrible way to work for all That's a terrible way to work for all the reasons I talked about. It's the reasons I talked about. It's the reasons I talked about. It's distracting. It's context switching. You distracting. It's context switching. You distracting. It's context switching. You can't do anything deep. It's hard to can't do anything deep. It's hard to can't do anything deep. It's hard to produce value. But if that's the way produce value. But if that's the way produce value. But if that's the way you're going to work, email clients are you're going to work, email clients are you're going to work, email clients are not a very good tool for that. You have not a very good tool for that. You have not a very good tool for that. You have threads and it's clunky and it's hard to threads and it's clunky and it's hard to threads and it's clunky and it's hard to search through your email and find what search through your email and find what search through your email and find what you did before. So Slack came along and you did before. So Slack came along and you did before. So Slack came along and said, "Look, if this is the way you're said, "Look, if this is the way you're said, "Look, if this is the way you're going to work, hyperactive hive mind, going to work, hyperactive hive mind, going to work, hyperactive hive mind, constant back and forth, ad hoc constant back and forth, ad hoc constant back and forth, ad hoc coordination, we'll build you a better coordination, we'll build you a better coordination, we'll build you a better tool for that." So that's why people tool for that." So that's why people tool for that." So that's why people both love and hate Slack. It's a really both love and hate Slack. It's a really both love and hate Slack. It's a really good tool for that style of good tool for that style of good tool for that style of collaboration. It works really well, but collaboration. It works really well, but collaboration. It works really well, but that style of collaboration makes us that style of collaboration makes us that style of collaboration makes us miserable. So, it's this weird lovehate miserable. So, it's this weird lovehate miserable. So, it's this weird lovehate relationship we have. Like, this works relationship we have. Like, this works relationship we have. Like, this works great. I hate the thing that it's making great. I hate the thing that it's making great. I hate the thing that it's making easier. easier. easier. >> Why does it why does it make us >> Why does it why does it make us >> Why does it why does it make us miserable that style of collaboration? miserable that style of collaboration? miserable that style of collaboration? >> Because our brain isn't meant to switch >> Because our brain isn't meant to switch >> Because our brain isn't meant to switch our target of attention that quickly. It our target of attention that quickly. It our target of attention that quickly. It just takes us a long time. If we're just takes us a long time. If we're just takes us a long time. If we're talking about targets that are abstract talking about targets that are abstract talking about targets that are abstract and symbolic, it takes us a long time to and symbolic, it takes us a long time to and symbolic, it takes us a long time to switch from one to another. physical switch from one to another. physical switch from one to another. physical world targets, we can switch quickly, world targets, we can switch quickly, world targets, we can switch quickly, right? We're wired for that. If there's right? We're wired for that. If there's right? We're wired for that. If there's a tiger's roar, I can boom, 100% a tiger's roar, I can boom, 100% a tiger's roar, I can boom, 100% attention what's going on over there. attention what's going on over there. attention what's going on over there. But when we're thinking about abstract But when we're thinking about abstract But when we're thinking about abstract things, information, ideas, things that things, information, ideas, things that things, information, ideas, things that are symbolic and in our head, that's us. are symbolic and in our head, that's us. are symbolic and in our head, that's us. We're basically uh reappropriating our We're basically uh reappropriating our We're basically uh reappropriating our brain hardware to do something we're not brain hardware to do something we're not brain hardware to do something we're not evolved to do. It takes a lot of effort evolved to do. It takes a lot of effort evolved to do. It takes a lot of effort to do symbolic thinking, to think about to do symbolic thinking, to think about to do symbolic thinking, to think about abstract concepts. And we know it takes abstract concepts. And we know it takes abstract concepts. And we know it takes 10 to 20 minutes to fully change our 10 to 20 minutes to fully change our 10 to 20 minutes to fully change our attention context from one abstract attention context from one abstract attention context from one abstract target to another. It takes a long time. target to another. It takes a long time. target to another. It takes a long time. That's why if you sit down to write That's why if you sit down to write That's why if you sit down to write something, everyone has this experience. something, everyone has this experience. something, everyone has this experience. The first five or 10 minutes like, man, The first five or 10 minutes like, man, The first five or 10 minutes like, man, this is terrible. this is terrible. this is terrible. >> Like I I I'm making no progress or >> Like I I I'm making no progress or >> Like I I I'm making no progress or whatever. And then after a while, you're whatever. And then after a while, you're whatever. And then after a while, you're like, "Oh, this is starting to flow. like, "Oh, this is starting to flow. like, "Oh, this is starting to flow. Like it's going better." That's because Like it's going better." That's because Like it's going better." That's because it took that much time for your brain to it took that much time for your brain to it took that much time for your brain to load up all of the relevant information load up all of the relevant information load up all of the relevant information and to inhibit all the unrelated and to inhibit all the unrelated and to inhibit all the unrelated circuits and get your brain really ready circuits and get your brain really ready circuits and get your brain really ready to do that activity. So if you now to do that activity. So if you now to do that activity. So if you now interrupt that brain once every two interrupt that brain once every two interrupt that brain once every two minutes, it never can lock in on minutes, it never can lock in on minutes, it never can lock in on anything and what you feel then is this anything and what you feel then is this anything and what you feel then is this sort of diffuse cognitive friction that sort of diffuse cognitive friction that sort of diffuse cognitive friction that we begin to experience as fatigue, we begin to experience as fatigue, we begin to experience as fatigue, cognitive fatigue. And it's a really cognitive fatigue. And it's a really cognitive fatigue. And it's a really frustrating experience. It's why if you frustrating experience. It's why if you frustrating experience. It's why if you go to an email inbox, you're like, I go to an email inbox, you're like, I go to an email inbox, you're like, I have time. I'm going to empty this have time. I'm going to empty this have time. I'm going to empty this inbox. I'm going to go message by inbox. I'm going to go message by inbox. I'm going to go message by message. Here's the best way to do it, message. Here's the best way to do it, message. Here's the best way to do it, right? On paper, I'm going to go message right? On paper, I'm going to go message right? On paper, I'm going to go message by message and I'm going to answer these by message and I'm going to answer these by message and I'm going to answer these messages. Why does that get so hard? Why messages. Why does that get so hard? Why messages. Why does that get so hard? Why do you find yourself like jumping around do you find yourself like jumping around do you find yourself like jumping around and looking for easier messages? Because and looking for easier messages? Because and looking for easier messages? Because each message is a different context in each message is a different context in each message is a different context in the other and that's torture for the the other and that's torture for the the other and that's torture for the brain. It's really really hard to go brain. It's really really hard to go brain. It's really really hard to go from all right this is a complicated from all right this is a complicated from all right this is a complicated question one of my employees is asking question one of my employees is asking question one of my employees is asking me and now this is a completely me and now this is a completely me and now this is a completely different issue completely unrelated to different issue completely unrelated to different issue completely unrelated to that where I have to think of like a that where I have to think of like a that where I have to think of like a good title for something and now here's good title for something and now here's good title for something and now here's a completely different issue and you're a completely different issue and you're a completely different issue and you're trying to switch one after another. Our trying to switch one after another. Our trying to switch one after another. Our brains aren't wired for that. It really brains aren't wired for that. It really brains aren't wired for that. It really makes us unhappy. makes us unhappy. makes us unhappy. What would you say to someone who wants What would you say to someone who wants What would you say to someone who wants to try and retrain that attention? Maybe to try and retrain that attention? Maybe to try and retrain that attention? Maybe maybe they're they're going to try and maybe they're they're going to try and maybe they're they're going to try and make some sort of a stand inside of make some sort of a stand inside of make some sort of a stand inside of Slack and say, "I will only be available Slack and say, "I will only be available Slack and say, "I will only be available at certain times of the day." But at certain times of the day." But at certain times of the day." But regardless of the inbound, let's say regardless of the inbound, let's say regardless of the inbound, let's say that they fix the inbound because that's that they fix the inbound because that's that they fix the inbound because that's a totally separate problem. That's much a totally separate problem. That's much a totally separate problem. That's much more sort of structural. Um, unless more sort of structural. Um, unless more sort of structural. Um, unless you've got any advice for that as well. you've got any advice for that as well. you've got any advice for that as well. But how how does someone go about But how how does someone go about But how how does someone go about re- appraising, retraining their mind re- appraising, retraining their mind re- appraising, retraining their mind away from that? Because we be we do away from that? Because we be we do away from that? Because we be we do become um we get like Stockholm become um we get like Stockholm become um we get like Stockholm syndrome, the slack Stockholm syndrome syndrome, the slack Stockholm syndrome syndrome, the slack Stockholm syndrome where our captor tormentor becomes the where our captor tormentor becomes the where our captor tormentor becomes the way that we operate. We've got our way that we operate. We've got our way that we operate. We've got our favorite little ways of working and it favorite little ways of working and it favorite little ways of working and it feels like we've done but then at the feels like we've done but then at the feels like we've done but then at the end of the day we look back and have end of the day we look back and have end of the day we look back and have this sort of odd this sort of odd this sort of odd malaise thing about well what did I malaise thing about well what did I malaise thing about well what did I actually do today? What got what got actually do today? What got what got actually do today? What got what got done? Well, not much not much got done. done? Well, not much not much got done. done? Well, not much not much got done. Yeah. Well, it's hard unilaterally if Yeah. Well, it's hard unilaterally if Yeah. Well, it's hard unilaterally if you've changed nothing else about your you've changed nothing else about your you've changed nothing else about your workload or your communication protocols workload or your communication protocols workload or your communication protocols if you just say if you just say if you just say uh I'm not going to be on Slack from uh I'm not going to be on Slack from uh I'm not going to be on Slack from this hour to this hour. I only check my this hour to this hour. I only check my this hour to this hour. I only check my email twice a day or whatever that email twice a day or whatever that email twice a day or whatever that standard advice was from 15 years ago. standard advice was from 15 years ago. standard advice was from 15 years ago. It doesn't work well because if you're It doesn't work well because if you're It doesn't work well because if you're involved in a large number of projects involved in a large number of projects involved in a large number of projects that are timely and the way progress is that are timely and the way progress is that are timely and the way progress is going to be made is with ad hoc back and going to be made is with ad hoc back and going to be made is with ad hoc back and forth messaging. You have to be in there forth messaging. You have to be in there forth messaging. You have to be in there checking. That's the brutal part of the checking. That's the brutal part of the checking. That's the brutal part of the hyperactive hive mind is that it has hyperactive hive mind is that it has hyperactive hive mind is that it has defenses to its elimination built into defenses to its elimination built into defenses to its elimination built into its very nature. its very nature. its very nature. Because if this is how we're going to Because if this is how we're going to Because if this is how we're going to figure this out, like we have to have figure this out, like we have to have figure this out, like we have to have five or six back and forth messages to five or six back and forth messages to five or six back and forth messages to figure out what we're going to do about figure out what we're going to do about figure out what we're going to do about this client coming tomorrow and we have this client coming tomorrow and we have this client coming tomorrow and we have to get this done today. That means you to get this done today. That means you to get this done today. That means you have to see my next message right away have to see my next message right away have to see my next message right away so that we have time for me to answer so that we have time for me to answer so that we have time for me to answer you and you to answer me and for that you and you to answer me and for that you and you to answer me and for that ping-pong match to happen. That means ping-pong match to happen. That means ping-pong match to happen. That means you have to be checking your inbox or you have to be checking your inbox or you have to be checking your inbox or Slack constantly. Otherwise, you're not Slack constantly. Otherwise, you're not Slack constantly. Otherwise, you're not going to see my next message in time for going to see my next message in time for going to see my next message in time for this whole game to unfold. So, the very this whole game to unfold. So, the very this whole game to unfold. So, the very nature of that style of collaboration nature of that style of collaboration nature of that style of collaboration demands constant inbox checking, which demands constant inbox checking, which demands constant inbox checking, which is what I think people often get wrong is what I think people often get wrong is what I think people often get wrong about this. When they think about things about this. When they think about things about this. When they think about things like Slack or email, they think too like Slack or email, they think too like Slack or email, they think too often about uh either information like, often about uh either information like, often about uh either information like, "Oh, I've got so many messages in my "Oh, I've got so many messages in my "Oh, I've got so many messages in my inbox that I don't need. I have all inbox that I don't need. I have all inbox that I don't need. I have all these newsletters and spam." That's not these newsletters and spam." That's not these newsletters and spam." That's not a problem. That's a minor problem. a problem. That's a minor problem. a problem. That's a minor problem. That's an easily solvable problem. You That's an easily solvable problem. You That's an easily solvable problem. You It's like clutter, you know? That's not It's like clutter, you know? That's not It's like clutter, you know? That's not a big problem. Um, the issue is actually a big problem. Um, the issue is actually a big problem. Um, the issue is actually my collaboration style requires me to be my collaboration style requires me to be my collaboration style requires me to be in there because if I miss messages in a in there because if I miss messages in a in there because if I miss messages in a timely fashion, everything falls apart. timely fashion, everything falls apart. timely fashion, everything falls apart. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And so the issue is not how do I >> And so the issue is not how do I >> And so the issue is not how do I interact with my inbox. interact with my inbox. interact with my inbox. >> It really has to be how do I change the >> It really has to be how do I change the >> It really has to be how do I change the way the inbox is being used. I I mean so way the inbox is being used. I I mean so way the inbox is being used. I I mean so I ended up I like had three big ideas on I ended up I like had three big ideas on I ended up I like had three big ideas on this that span three different books, this that span three different books, this that span three different books, right? So um in deep work like one of right? So um in deep work like one of right? So um in deep work like one of the big ideas was you can train your the big ideas was you can train your the big ideas was you can train your personal ability to focus. Uh focusing personal ability to focus. Uh focusing personal ability to focus. Uh focusing is really important putting aside for is really important putting aside for is really important putting aside for now all the things trying to prevent you now all the things trying to prevent you now all the things trying to prevent you from focusing you have to practice it from focusing you have to practice it from focusing you have to practice it and if you practice it you'll get better and if you practice it you'll get better and if you practice it you'll get better at it and if you get better at it you'll at it and if you get better at it you'll at it and if you get better at it you'll be a superstar because like that's what be a superstar because like that's what be a superstar because like that's what matters in the knowledge economy. matters in the knowledge economy. matters in the knowledge economy. Everything good comes out of focus. Then Everything good comes out of focus. Then Everything good comes out of focus. Then I wrote a book after that called a world I wrote a book after that called a world I wrote a book after that called a world without email. And in that book I was without email. And in that book I was without email. And in that book I was arguing uh the way we the thing I was arguing uh the way we the thing I was arguing uh the way we the thing I was telling you about hyperactive high telling you about hyperactive high telling you about hyperactive high communication is a problem. This is a communication is a problem. This is a communication is a problem. This is a real problem. The fact that we are using real problem. The fact that we are using real problem. The fact that we are using this method for coordination is causing this method for coordination is causing this method for coordination is causing all these trouble is really causing all these trouble is really causing all these trouble is really causing problems. And I went through all the problems. And I went through all the problems. And I went through all the data and all the research and made the data and all the research and made the data and all the research and made the case this is super non-productive. I case this is super non-productive. I case this is super non-productive. I went back through the archives uh the went back through the archives uh the went back through the archives uh the New York Times business session in the New York Times business session in the New York Times business session in the 80s and 90s to exactly document the rise 80s and 90s to exactly document the rise 80s and 90s to exactly document the rise of email and how people were talking of email and how people were talking of email and how people were talking about email when it first came onto the about email when it first came onto the about email when it first came onto the business scene. And I made the case the business scene. And I made the case the business scene. And I made the case the way we work is arbitrary. This way we work is arbitrary. This way we work is arbitrary. This hyperactive highine was not a plan. It hyperactive highine was not a plan. It hyperactive highine was not a plan. It wasn't seen to be more productive. We wasn't seen to be more productive. We wasn't seen to be more productive. We stumbled into it. So we really should stumbled into it. So we really should stumbled into it. So we really should change it. So that was that book. And change it. So that was that book. And change it. So that was that book. And then the the most recent book slow then the the most recent book slow then the the most recent book slow productivity from a couple years ago. In productivity from a couple years ago. In productivity from a couple years ago. In that book I argued, oh wait a second, that book I argued, oh wait a second, that book I argued, oh wait a second, workload matters too. The other issue of workload matters too. The other issue of workload matters too. The other issue of this problem is we don't put any limits this problem is we don't put any limits this problem is we don't put any limits or transparency on how many things we're or transparency on how many things we're or transparency on how many things we're working on. And if you pile too many working on. And if you pile too many working on. And if you pile too many things on your plate, too much things on your plate, too much things on your plate, too much communication interruption becomes communication interruption becomes communication interruption becomes unavoidable because they each have unavoidable because they each have unavoidable because they each have little issues they need you to deal little issues they need you to deal little issues they need you to deal with. So, so I've now over this 10-year with. So, so I've now over this 10-year with. So, so I've now over this 10-year period have kind of broken down this period have kind of broken down this period have kind of broken down this problem. There's like training yourself problem. There's like training yourself problem. There's like training yourself to focus, to focus, to focus, >> fixing your communication protocols, >> fixing your communication protocols, >> fixing your communication protocols, like how do I communicate in a like how do I communicate in a like how do I communicate in a professional context? How do we professional context? How do we professional context? How do we collaborate? And then managing workload collaborate? And then managing workload collaborate? And then managing workload to be more reasonable. All three of and to be more reasonable. All three of and to be more reasonable. All three of and this might be why this problem's not this might be why this problem's not this might be why this problem's not solved. There's no one thing to fix, solved. There's no one thing to fix, solved. There's no one thing to fix, right? So all three of these things go right? So all three of these things go right? So all three of these things go into the the issue. They're each into the the issue. They're each into the the issue. They're each complicated. complicated. complicated. >> What of across those three books, all of >> What of across those three books, all of >> What of across those three books, all of which are great and everyone needs to go which are great and everyone needs to go which are great and everyone needs to go and check out. I think we've done and check out. I think we've done and check out. I think we've done episodes about each of them, so they can episodes about each of them, so they can episodes about each of them, so they can just go and listen to those and then and just go and listen to those and then and just go and listen to those and then and then buy the books. Um, then buy the books. Um, then buy the books. Um, >> looking back across this portfolio of >> looking back across this portfolio of >> looking back across this portfolio of productivity advice, productivity advice, productivity advice, what have you heard from readers or what what have you heard from readers or what what have you heard from readers or what has been the stickiest has been the stickiest has been the stickiest strategies for you? you look back and strategies for you? you look back and strategies for you? you look back and you go, "Okay, that's the 8020 of of of you go, "Okay, that's the 8020 of of of you go, "Okay, that's the 8020 of of of what I've published over the last three what I've published over the last three what I've published over the last three books." books." books." >> To me, I think the the big two that give >> To me, I think the the big two that give >> To me, I think the the big two that give you the biggest results, and I'll tell you the biggest results, and I'll tell you the biggest results, and I'll tell you the one that's the hardest, and you the one that's the hardest, and you the one that's the hardest, and that's why this book probably sold the that's why this book probably sold the that's why this book probably sold the least. Um, the big two that gives you least. Um, the big two that gives you least. Um, the big two that gives you the biggest results is taking focus the biggest results is taking focus the biggest results is taking focus seriously like a skill. That really does seriously like a skill. That really does seriously like a skill. That really does make a difference. Practicing focus, you make a difference. Practicing focus, you make a difference. Practicing focus, you get better at it and it has a a get better at it and it has a a get better at it and it has a a demonstraable demonstraable demonstraable difference. you sit down to work and difference. you sit down to work and difference. you sit down to work and you're just producing better stuff or you're just producing better stuff or you're just producing better stuff or you're trying to pick up some you're trying to pick up some you're trying to pick up some complicated new thing like oh god I can complicated new thing like oh god I can complicated new thing like oh god I can learn this faster that makes a huge learn this faster that makes a huge learn this faster that makes a huge difference um and then the second one difference um and then the second one difference um and then the second one which was more recent in my life was oh which was more recent in my life was oh which was more recent in my life was oh you really got to control the workload you really got to control the workload you really got to control the workload so much is downstream from how many so much is downstream from how many so much is downstream from how many things you've agreed to work on you have things you've agreed to work on you have things you've agreed to work on you have to leave the mindset of everything I say to leave the mindset of everything I say to leave the mindset of everything I say yes to brings with it value so saying yes to brings with it value so saying yes to brings with it value so saying yes to more things is just going to yes to more things is just going to yes to more things is just going to aggregate more value that's not the aggregate more value that's not the aggregate more value that's not the right mindset that's not the way it's right mindset that's not the way it's right mindset that's not the way it's it's a nonlinear uh you um reward it's a nonlinear uh you um reward it's a nonlinear uh you um reward function there. There's a certain point function there. There's a certain point function there. There's a certain point as you add more things. So, not only as you add more things. So, not only as you add more things. So, not only does value stop growing, uh it begins to does value stop growing, uh it begins to does value stop growing, uh it begins to go down on the other side and that go down on the other side and that go down on the other side and that there's a real uh saying no to many more there's a real uh saying no to many more there's a real uh saying no to many more things is actually a way to optimize things is actually a way to optimize things is actually a way to optimize reward and output which is not natural. reward and output which is not natural. reward and output which is not natural. Uh it doesn't make sense at first. It Uh it doesn't make sense at first. It Uh it doesn't make sense at first. It doesn't feel like common sense. So, doesn't feel like common sense. So, doesn't feel like common sense. So, workload and focus training, you can workload and focus training, you can workload and focus training, you can control those more than you think and control those more than you think and control those more than you think and you're going to have huge results from you're going to have huge results from you're going to have huge results from those. A quick aside. Do you remember those. A quick aside. Do you remember those. A quick aside. Do you remember learning about the mighty mitochondria learning about the mighty mitochondria learning about the mighty mitochondria back in grade school? Here's a quick back in grade school? Here's a quick back in grade school? Here's a quick refresher. It's the tiny engine inside refresher. It's the tiny engine inside refresher. It's the tiny engine inside of your cells that powers everything you of your cells that powers everything you of your cells that powers everything you do. But here's what they didn't teach do. But here's what they didn't teach do. But here's what they didn't teach you. As you age, your mitochondria break you. As you age, your mitochondria break you. As you age, your mitochondria break down. That's what can cause you to feel down. That's what can cause you to feel down. That's what can cause you to feel tired more often, take longer to tired more often, take longer to tired more often, take longer to recover, and wake up feeling like you're recover, and wake up feeling like you're recover, and wake up feeling like you're never fully recharged, no matter how never fully recharged, no matter how never fully recharged, no matter how long you sleep. I started taking long you sleep. I started taking long you sleep. 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The learning to say no thing is The learning to say no thing is interesting, especially as people interesting, especially as people interesting, especially as people progress inside of their career and they progress inside of their career and they progress inside of their career and they get better at what they're doing. They get better at what they're doing. They get better at what they're doing. They have to learn to be able to say no to have to learn to be able to say no to have to learn to be able to say no to opportunities that they would have only opportunities that they would have only opportunities that they would have only begged to have had the opportunity to be begged to have had the opportunity to be begged to have had the opportunity to be in the room to have maybe said yes to in the room to have maybe said yes to in the room to have maybe said yes to >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> only half a decade ago. >> only half a decade ago. >> only half a decade ago. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> In that time, you've had to go from >> In that time, you've had to go from >> In that time, you've had to go from needing that opportunity to actively needing that opportunity to actively needing that opportunity to actively being able to say no to something that's being able to say no to something that's being able to say no to something that's probably better than it. Uh Alex, my probably better than it. Uh Alex, my probably better than it. Uh Alex, my friend, taught me about, you remember, friend, taught me about, you remember, friend, taught me about, you remember, uh in the Matrix, the woman with the red uh in the Matrix, the woman with the red uh in the Matrix, the woman with the red dress, and Neo turns around and he says, dress, and Neo turns around and he says, dress, and Neo turns around and he says, "Were you looking at me? We looking at "Were you looking at me? We looking at "Were you looking at me? We looking at the woman in the red dress. Look again." the woman in the red dress. Look again." the woman in the red dress. Look again." and it's an agent with a gun in his and it's an agent with a gun in his and it's an agent with a gun in his face. And the analogy that Alex used face. And the analogy that Alex used face. And the analogy that Alex used was, "And now imagine that she's not a was, "And now imagine that she's not a was, "And now imagine that she's not a 10 out of 10, but imagine a thousand 10 out of 10, but imagine a thousand 10 out of 10, but imagine a thousand hypothetical 1,000s out of 10." And you hypothetical 1,000s out of 10." And you hypothetical 1,000s out of 10." And you need to be able to say no to them, which need to be able to say no to them, which need to be able to say no to them, which previously you didn't even know existed. previously you didn't even know existed. previously you didn't even know existed. So this I think the kind of um So this I think the kind of um So this I think the kind of um it's almost like reverse entropy or it's almost like reverse entropy or it's almost like reverse entropy or habituation. you know, your habituation. you know, your habituation. you know, your opportunities get better, which means opportunities get better, which means opportunities get better, which means that your capacity to say no needs to that your capacity to say no needs to that your capacity to say no needs to get better more quickly than that. You get better more quickly than that. You get better more quickly than that. You can't be chasing your tail trying to can't be chasing your tail trying to can't be chasing your tail trying to learn to be able to say no less quickly learn to be able to say no less quickly learn to be able to say no less quickly than the opportunities get more than the opportunities get more than the opportunities get more seductive. seductive. seductive. >> Yeah. It's almost perverse uh the way >> Yeah. It's almost perverse uh the way >> Yeah. It's almost perverse uh the way that works. It's like when you have all that works. It's like when you have all that works. It's like when you have all the time in the world, all you want is the time in the world, all you want is the time in the world, all you want is opportunities. And then when you have opportunities. And then when you have opportunities. And then when you have opportunities, all you want is all the opportunities, all you want is all the opportunities, all you want is all the time in the world. I had to change I time in the world. I had to change I time in the world. I had to change I don't know what you do but I had to don't know what you do but I had to don't know what you do but I had to change my rule at some point. This was change my rule at some point. This was change my rule at some point. This was hard for me to the default no like hard for me to the default no like hard for me to the default no like that's just how I have to operate now it that's just how I have to operate now it that's just how I have to operate now it because as soon as you try to have a because as soon as you try to have a because as soon as you try to have a triage rule well look I'm not going to triage rule well look I'm not going to triage rule well look I'm not going to do this opportunity unless I only do do this opportunity unless I only do do this opportunity unless I only do speaking gigs that have this much money speaking gigs that have this much money speaking gigs that have this much money or this or I only going to go meet with or this or I only going to go meet with or this or I only going to go meet with someone if they're like this interesting someone if they're like this interesting someone if they're like this interesting or this or that. or this or that. or this or that. >> Eventually the number of things that >> Eventually the number of things that >> Eventually the number of things that satisfy that criteria overwhelms you satisfy that criteria overwhelms you satisfy that criteria overwhelms you just as well. It's just so I've I I've just as well. It's just so I've I I've just as well. It's just so I've I I've just had to fall back on the default. just had to fall back on the default. just had to fall back on the default. No, No, No, >> you're you're talking to somebody who >> you're you're talking to somebody who >> you're you're talking to somebody who came back from a two-day trip to Qatar came back from a two-day trip to Qatar came back from a two-day trip to Qatar at the start of this week. So, I spent at the start of this week. So, I spent at the start of this week. So, I spent as much time traveling as I did in the as much time traveling as I did in the as much time traveling as I did in the country to to give a talk. And as I country to to give a talk. And as I country to to give a talk. And as I looked around, there was this first the looked around, there was this first the looked around, there was this first the first night dinner. There was maybe 300 first night dinner. There was maybe 300 first night dinner. There was maybe 300 people there. And I'm talking to Logan people there. And I'm talking to Logan people there. And I'm talking to Logan Paul and Steven Bartlett's over his Paul and Steven Bartlett's over his Paul and Steven Bartlett's over his shoulder. And the CEO of Qatar Airways shoulder. And the CEO of Qatar Airways shoulder. And the CEO of Qatar Airways is here. in the Middle Eastern director is here. in the Middle Eastern director is here. in the Middle Eastern director for meta over there. And I was looking for meta over there. And I was looking for meta over there. And I was looking around thinking, everybody here wants to around thinking, everybody here wants to around thinking, everybody here wants to be here. It's very exciting. Everyone's be here. It's very exciting. Everyone's be here. It's very exciting. Everyone's really lovely. But also, everyone here really lovely. But also, everyone here really lovely. But also, everyone here can't say no. Everybody in this room is can't say no. Everybody in this room is can't say no. Everybody in this room is chronically incapable of saying no chronically incapable of saying no chronically incapable of saying no because because because >> I've said no to this one several times, >> I've said no to this one several times, >> I've said no to this one several times, by the way. I the amount of invites to by the way. I the amount of invites to by the way. I the amount of invites to the the Qatar and the UAE and other the the Qatar and the UAE and other the the Qatar and the UAE and other places. I have I have said no to places. I have I have said no to places. I have I have said no to >> All right. Well, consider me a [ __ ] >> All right. Well, consider me a [ __ ] >> All right. Well, consider me a [ __ ] consider a [ __ ] compared to you, Cal. consider a [ __ ] compared to you, Cal. consider a [ __ ] compared to you, Cal. Whatever. Whatever it I must be easy an Whatever. Whatever it I must be easy an Whatever. Whatever it I must be easy an easy booty call. They tried to get Cal easy booty call. They tried to get Cal easy booty call. They tried to get Cal Newport. We couldn't get Cal. So, we'll Newport. We couldn't get Cal. So, we'll Newport. We couldn't get Cal. So, we'll ring Chris instead. ring Chris instead. ring Chris instead. >> The default. No. Oh, man. Yeah. It's >> The default. No. Oh, man. Yeah. It's >> The default. No. Oh, man. Yeah. It's It's crazy the things you end up saying It's crazy the things you end up saying It's crazy the things you end up saying no to after a while. But that I mean no to after a while. But that I mean no to after a while. But that I mean there's a currency shift for me. Time to there's a currency shift for me. Time to there's a currency shift for me. Time to think is such a valuable that's a more think is such a valuable that's a more think is such a valuable that's a more valuable currency than money, right? You valuable currency than money, right? You valuable currency than money, right? You get to a point where you're like, "Oh, get to a point where you're like, "Oh, get to a point where you're like, "Oh, I'm doing fine, but if I don't have time I'm doing fine, but if I don't have time I'm doing fine, but if I don't have time to think, what's the point?" And then to think, what's the point?" And then to think, what's the point?" And then that becomes this like really rare that becomes this like really rare that becomes this like really rare currency that's that's much harder to currency that's that's much harder to currency that's that's much harder to get a hold of. And that's the only way I get a hold of. And that's the only way I get a hold of. And that's the only way I can protect it now is anything that can protect it now is anything that can protect it now is anything that requires me to like go somewhere. It's a requires me to like go somewhere. It's a requires me to like go somewhere. It's a default. No. And then I can talk myself default. No. And then I can talk myself default. No. And then I can talk myself out of it later, right? I'm like, you out of it later, right? I'm like, you out of it later, right? I'm like, you know what? I could bring my family with know what? I could bring my family with know what? I could bring my family with it. We could have a trip, right? So, it. We could have a trip, right? So, it. We could have a trip, right? So, actually, you know what? I I will do actually, you know what? I I will do actually, you know what? I I will do this or uh you know, I just did a had a this or uh you know, I just did a had a this or uh you know, I just did a had a masterclass course released um this masterclass course released um this masterclass course released um this week. I spent a year and a half saying week. I spent a year and a half saying week. I spent a year and a half saying no to that. And then like eventually I no to that. And then like eventually I no to that. And then like eventually I sort of talked myself I talked to some sort of talked myself I talked to some sort of talked myself I talked to some people people people >> uh they're like we'll come to DC to do >> uh they're like we'll come to DC to do >> uh they're like we'll come to DC to do it. I talked to you know James Clear had it. I talked to you know James Clear had it. I talked to you know James Clear had just done one and I had a good talk with just done one and I had a good talk with just done one and I had a good talk with him about it and I was like you know him about it and I was like you know him about it and I was like you know what this is this will be interesting what this is this will be interesting what this is this will be interesting and it took me a year and a half. Um but and it took me a year and a half. Um but and it took me a year and a half. Um but I finally talked myself into it. So I I finally talked myself into it. So I I finally talked myself into it. So I will say yes but it just the default no will say yes but it just the default no will say yes but it just the default no means that you don't have to means that you don't have to means that you don't have to >> high standards. >> high standards. >> high standards. >> Yeah. You don't have to run it through >> Yeah. You don't have to run it through >> Yeah. You don't have to run it through the ringer and then you're like okay if the ringer and then you're like okay if the ringer and then you're like okay if it really sticks with me then maybe I'll it really sticks with me then maybe I'll it really sticks with me then maybe I'll be like all right I'll do it. be like all right I'll do it. be like all right I'll do it. >> How much should people actually be >> How much should people actually be >> How much should people actually be working? working? working? Well, it depends what you mean by work Well, it depends what you mean by work Well, it depends what you mean by work and what they're doing, right? Because and what they're doing, right? Because and what they're doing, right? Because think about it. Let's say you're an think about it. Let's say you're an think about it. Let's say you're an athlete. It's super well defined. Like athlete. It's super well defined. Like athlete. It's super well defined. Like here's optimal training. Here's optimal here's optimal training. Here's optimal here's optimal training. Here's optimal rest and like that's what you should be rest and like that's what you should be rest and like that's what you should be doing. Like you the that's really clear. doing. Like you the that's really clear. doing. Like you the that's really clear. We don't have those limits as clear in We don't have those limits as clear in We don't have those limits as clear in the culture for other types of jobs that the culture for other types of jobs that the culture for other types of jobs that we probably should. If you're at a high we probably should. If you're at a high we probably should. If you're at a high wage hourly build job, like a law wage hourly build job, like a law wage hourly build job, like a law partner at a big law firm, there the partner at a big law firm, there the partner at a big law firm, there the economic model is the more you work, the economic model is the more you work, the economic model is the more you work, the more profitable it is. And we'll we'll more profitable it is. And we'll we'll more profitable it is. And we'll we'll pay you big money to do this, but like pay you big money to do this, but like pay you big money to do this, but like you should basically work as much as you you should basically work as much as you you should basically work as much as you can that your body will take it. That's can that your body will take it. That's can that your body will take it. That's the economic engine there. That's why I the economic engine there. That's why I the economic engine there. That's why I think those jobs are those jobs are think those jobs are those jobs are think those jobs are those jobs are scary. If you're a novelist that writes scary. If you're a novelist that writes scary. If you're a novelist that writes literary fiction, so you're like, I literary fiction, so you're like, I literary fiction, so you're like, I really need to be award nominated for really need to be award nominated for really need to be award nominated for each book or I'm going to fall out of each book or I'm going to fall out of each book or I'm going to fall out of this like slipstream of because no one's this like slipstream of because no one's this like slipstream of because no one's going to read these books unless they're going to read these books unless they're going to read these books unless they're some of the best books. some of the best books. some of the best books. >> Then you should be doing like four hours >> Then you should be doing like four hours >> Then you should be doing like four hours in the morning and then just disappear, in the morning and then just disappear, in the morning and then just disappear, right? Like you should be doing very right? Like you should be doing very right? Like you should be doing very little more work than that because little more work than that because little more work than that because almost anything else will get in the way almost anything else will get in the way almost anything else will get in the way of you like sticking in that position. of you like sticking in that position. of you like sticking in that position. And so it all just depends on what on And so it all just depends on what on And so it all just depends on what on what you do, you know? what you do, you know? what you do, you know? Didn't you look at some experiment of Didn't you look at some experiment of Didn't you look at some experiment of shorter work weeks? shorter work weeks? shorter work weeks? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What what did you learn from that? >> What what did you learn from that? >> What what did you learn from that? >> There's a lot of these right around the >> There's a lot of these right around the >> There's a lot of these right around the pandemic right before and then right pandemic right before and then right pandemic right before and then right after in Europe and Iceland. So some after in Europe and Iceland. So some after in Europe and Iceland. So some European studies I think Germany did European studies I think Germany did European studies I think Germany did one, Iceland did one, UK did one and one, Iceland did one, UK did one and one, Iceland did one, UK did one and they were looking at four day work they were looking at four day work they were looking at four day work weeks. So what would happen if we take weeks. So what would happen if we take weeks. So what would happen if we take away one one day? The interesting thing away one one day? The interesting thing away one one day? The interesting thing about those experiments is what they about those experiments is what they about those experiments is what they found is the whatever measures of found is the whatever measures of found is the whatever measures of productivity they came up with uh they productivity they came up with uh they productivity they came up with uh they didn't get worse which I thought was didn't get worse which I thought was didn't get worse which I thought was very interesting. They took a day away very interesting. They took a day away very interesting. They took a day away and yet the perceived productivity or and yet the perceived productivity or and yet the perceived productivity or the measured productivity didn't go the measured productivity didn't go the measured productivity didn't go down. And there's there's two ways to down. And there's there's two ways to down. And there's there's two ways to look at it. The one way to look at it is look at it. The one way to look at it is look at it. The one way to look at it is to say, "Oh, this means that like we to say, "Oh, this means that like we to say, "Oh, this means that like we should have a 4-day work week because it should have a 4-day work week because it should have a 4-day work week because it things didn't get worse and okay, maybe things didn't get worse and okay, maybe things didn't get worse and okay, maybe maybe right, but to me there's like a maybe right, but to me there's like a maybe right, but to me there's like a bigger observation that came out of bigger observation that came out of bigger observation that came out of that, which is like, wait, so what were that, which is like, wait, so what were that, which is like, wait, so what were we what are we doing during the work we what are we doing during the work we what are we doing during the work days?" Like this there's something going days?" Like this there's something going days?" Like this there's something going on here that should really catch our on here that should really catch our on here that should really catch our attention. What does work mean that we attention. What does work mean that we attention. What does work mean that we could take an entire day off the table could take an entire day off the table could take an entire day off the table with no other preparation and the the with no other preparation and the the with no other preparation and the the valuable stuff being produced doesn't valuable stuff being produced doesn't valuable stuff being produced doesn't change? This tells us that like whatever change? This tells us that like whatever change? This tells us that like whatever we're doing while we're sitting here in we're doing while we're sitting here in we're doing while we're sitting here in work is not just sitting down and trying work is not just sitting down and trying work is not just sitting down and trying to produce value. We're clearly have all to produce value. We're clearly have all to produce value. We're clearly have all sorts of other sorts of distractions sorts of other sorts of distractions sorts of other sorts of distractions going on. Uh context switching, time going on. Uh context switching, time going on. Uh context switching, time that's being devoured, Parkinson's law that's being devoured, Parkinson's law that's being devoured, Parkinson's law is at play. Uh work must be broke. To is at play. Uh work must be broke. To is at play. Uh work must be broke. To me, that was the more important me, that was the more important me, that was the more important observation is that like if you can take observation is that like if you can take observation is that like if you can take away a day and nothing changes, then I away a day and nothing changes, then I away a day and nothing changes, then I don't think we're doing in the office don't think we're doing in the office don't think we're doing in the office what we think we're doing in the office. what we think we're doing in the office. what we think we're doing in the office. >> Parkinson's law was on the tip of my >> Parkinson's law was on the tip of my >> Parkinson's law was on the tip of my tongue. Work expands to fill the time tongue. Work expands to fill the time tongue. Work expands to fill the time given for it. And if you give people 5 given for it. And if you give people 5 given for it. And if you give people 5 days, they'll take five. And if you give days, they'll take five. And if you give days, they'll take five. And if you give them 4 days, then they'll do it in four. them 4 days, then they'll do it in four. them 4 days, then they'll do it in four. And and look, And and look, And and look, everybody knows just how much time they everybody knows just how much time they everybody knows just how much time they waste not doing the work, not doing the waste not doing the work, not doing the waste not doing the work, not doing the thing that they're supposed to do. And thing that they're supposed to do. And thing that they're supposed to do. And this isn't victim blaming. This is a lot this isn't victim blaming. This is a lot this isn't victim blaming. This is a lot of the time dealing with admin of the time dealing with admin of the time dealing with admin unnecessary meetings. You can't get out unnecessary meetings. You can't get out unnecessary meetings. You can't get out of them. You have to be there for of them. You have to be there for of them. You have to be there for whatever reason. So it's not as if it's whatever reason. So it's not as if it's whatever reason. So it's not as if it's bottom up. A lot of it is top down bottom up. A lot of it is top down bottom up. A lot of it is top down dictated. this is the environment that dictated. this is the environment that dictated. this is the environment that you work in and you have to do this. But you work in and you have to do this. But you work in and you have to do this. But even outside of that, when you do have even outside of that, when you do have even outside of that, when you do have your 1 hour in between meetings, your your 1 hour in between meetings, your your 1 hour in between meetings, your inability to not I I remember I used inability to not I I remember I used inability to not I I remember I used when I used to run nightclubs and I get when I used to run nightclubs and I get when I used to run nightclubs and I get in at 2:30 in the morning. The final in at 2:30 in the morning. The final in at 2:30 in the morning. The final part of the night was cashing the till. part of the night was cashing the till. part of the night was cashing the till. So this was before we switched to So this was before we switched to So this was before we switched to tickets, which was sort of the late tickets, which was sort of the late tickets, which was sort of the late teens, just before co uh digital tickets teens, just before co uh digital tickets teens, just before co uh digital tickets online, which meant that you didn't have online, which meant that you didn't have online, which meant that you didn't have to cash as much money in the till. Uh to cash as much money in the till. Uh to cash as much money in the till. Uh but before that it was all you know5 but before that it was all you know5 but before that it was all you know5 and10 note and 20 pound notes and single and10 note and 20 pound notes and single and10 note and 20 pound notes and single pounds and all the rest of it and I pounds and all the rest of it and I pounds and all the rest of it and I would go into the office with the would go into the office with the would go into the office with the manager of the venue and we would be manager of the venue and we would be manager of the venue and we would be counting the money. But this is the counting the money. But this is the counting the money. But this is the final task the final bit of the night. final task the final bit of the night. final task the final bit of the night. It's [ __ ] 2:15 or 2:30 in the It's [ __ ] 2:15 or 2:30 in the It's [ __ ] 2:15 or 2:30 in the morning. We've just taken the taken the morning. We've just taken the taken the morning. We've just taken the taken the till off as it's called. Anybody that's till off as it's called. Anybody that's till off as it's called. Anybody that's coming in doesn't get to come in blah coming in doesn't get to come in blah coming in doesn't get to come in blah blah and we're not going to take any blah and we're not going to take any blah and we're not going to take any more money. And I'm sat up there doing more money. And I'm sat up there doing more money. And I'm sat up there doing like light lift mental arithmetic, but like light lift mental arithmetic, but like light lift mental arithmetic, but for me, somebody who hadn't done math for me, somebody who hadn't done math for me, somebody who hadn't done math since I was 16, it was a relatively since I was 16, it was a relatively since I was 16, it was a relatively heavy lift, flicking through the money, heavy lift, flicking through the money, heavy lift, flicking through the money, flicking through the money. It was flicking through the money. It was flicking through the money. It was light, you know, huge fluorescent light, you know, huge fluorescent light, you know, huge fluorescent overhead lights just before. And then I overhead lights just before. And then I overhead lights just before. And then I get to drive home and I'm like thinking get to drive home and I'm like thinking get to drive home and I'm like thinking about and I got to go put the money in about and I got to go put the money in about and I got to go put the money in the tilt and I got to write it in the the tilt and I got to write it in the the tilt and I got to write it in the the spreadsheet and then I get into bed. the spreadsheet and then I get into bed. the spreadsheet and then I get into bed. And as I go into bed, my eyes below my And as I go into bed, my eyes below my And as I go into bed, my eyes below my eyelids would start flicking left and eyelids would start flicking left and eyelids would start flicking left and right. I wouldn't be able to tune. I'm right. I wouldn't be able to tune. I'm right. I wouldn't be able to tune. I'm also doing this. Let's not forget in a also doing this. Let's not forget in a also doing this. Let's not forget in a sweaty beer stinking office above a room sweaty beer stinking office above a room sweaty beer stinking office above a room going. going. going. Yeah. I've had to walk through the club. Yeah. I've had to walk through the club. Yeah. I've had to walk through the club. I've had to shout at the the hostesses. I've had to shout at the the hostesses. I've had to shout at the the hostesses. One of them's getting fingered on the One of them's getting fingered on the One of them's getting fingered on the dance floor. Stop doing that. You're dance floor. Stop doing that. You're dance floor. Stop doing that. You're supposed to be at work. The DJ's pissed. supposed to be at work. The DJ's pissed. supposed to be at work. The DJ's pissed. I need to, you know, it's chaos. And I need to, you know, it's chaos. And I need to, you know, it's chaos. And I've tried to coordinate this orchestra I've tried to coordinate this orchestra I've tried to coordinate this orchestra of [ __ ] And then I've had to do of [ __ ] And then I've had to do of [ __ ] And then I've had to do mental arithmetic. And then I get to mental arithmetic. And then I get to mental arithmetic. And then I get to drive home. And then I'm like, okay, drive home. And then I'm like, okay, drive home. And then I'm like, okay, chill out, brain. It doesn't want to. chill out, brain. It doesn't want to. chill out, brain. It doesn't want to. And that eyes moving left and right And that eyes moving left and right And that eyes moving left and right thing I think is the sort of thing I think is the sort of thing I think is the sort of >> optical equivalent, ocular equivalent of >> optical equivalent, ocular equivalent of >> optical equivalent, ocular equivalent of how people feel when they finally get a how people feel when they finally get a how people feel when they finally get a moment. Oh, okay. All of my stuff is moment. Oh, okay. All of my stuff is moment. Oh, okay. All of my stuff is done. And then they try and sit down to done. And then they try and sit down to done. And then they try and sit down to work on the thing that ostensibly work on the thing that ostensibly work on the thing that ostensibly they're actually there to do, right? they're actually there to do, right? they're actually there to do, right? Because all of the other [ __ ] the Because all of the other [ __ ] the Because all of the other [ __ ] the meetings, you're not there to do the meetings, you're not there to do the meetings, you're not there to do the meetings, you're not there to do the meetings, you're not there to do the meetings, you're not there to do the Slack, you're not there to do, all of Slack, you're not there to do, all of Slack, you're not there to do, all of that is foreplay to get you to do the that is foreplay to get you to do the that is foreplay to get you to do the thing that you're there to do. And then thing that you're there to do. And then thing that you're there to do. And then you sit down to do the thing you're you sit down to do the thing you're you sit down to do the thing you're there to do and your eyes are moving there to do and your eyes are moving there to do and your eyes are moving behind your eyelids is the equivalent. behind your eyelids is the equivalent. behind your eyelids is the equivalent. You're swiping and moving across the You're swiping and moving across the You're swiping and moving across the screen and you've got a few different screen and you've got a few different screen and you've got a few different other well I'll just check on this other well I'll just check on this other well I'll just check on this thing. Like what the living [ __ ] is thing. Like what the living [ __ ] is thing. Like what the living [ __ ] is going on? I've like trained the going on? I've like trained the going on? I've like trained the environment that I work in has trained environment that I work in has trained environment that I work in has trained me out of being able to do my work. me out of being able to do my work. me out of being able to do my work. Well, it it we are meant to do like what Well, it it we are meant to do like what Well, it it we are meant to do like what would be the ideal workday in an office would be the ideal workday in an office would be the ideal workday in an office environment that would actually mask the environment that would actually mask the environment that would actually mask the human brain? It would probably be you human brain? It would probably be you human brain? It would probably be you come in, you work on something hard for come in, you work on something hard for come in, you work on something hard for a while like that's what you do in the a while like that's what you do in the a while like that's what you do in the morning, you have lunch and then you morning, you have lunch and then you morning, you have lunch and then you like catch up with have some meetings, like catch up with have some meetings, like catch up with have some meetings, talk to some people, hey, what's going talk to some people, hey, what's going talk to some people, hey, what's going on? And and you know do some task and on? And and you know do some task and on? And and you know do some task and that's your day. Like that's basically that's your day. Like that's basically that's your day. Like that's basically what we can do like two things. one big what we can do like two things. one big what we can do like two things. one big burst of like let me focus on something burst of like let me focus on something burst of like let me focus on something hard and then we can kind of come down hard and then we can kind of come down hard and then we can kind of come down the mountain after that with let me chat the mountain after that with let me chat the mountain after that with let me chat with people what's going on some with people what's going on some with people what's going on some decisions need to be made or whatever decisions need to be made or whatever decisions need to be made or whatever that's probably about optimal instead we that's probably about optimal instead we that's probably about optimal instead we juggle a dozen to two dozen tasks that juggle a dozen to two dozen tasks that juggle a dozen to two dozen tasks that all have their own demands they all have all have their own demands they all have all have their own demands they all have their own communication needs uh this is their own communication needs uh this is their own communication needs uh this is why the Microsoft data shows oh the work why the Microsoft data shows oh the work why the Microsoft data shows oh the work happens the Saturday and Sunday morning happens the Saturday and Sunday morning happens the Saturday and Sunday morning it is really hard you can't go from and it is really hard you can't go from and it is really hard you can't go from and meetings are very hard as well we think meetings are very hard as well we think meetings are very hard as well we think like oh I'm not actually doing work like oh I'm not actually doing work like oh I'm not actually doing work during meetings But what you are during meetings But what you are during meetings But what you are engaging in a meeting is all the parts engaging in a meeting is all the parts engaging in a meeting is all the parts of your brain that deal with social of your brain that deal with social of your brain that deal with social interaction. And those are a large part interaction. And those are a large part interaction. And those are a large part of your brain. And that is a fraught and of your brain. And that is a fraught and of your brain. And that is a fraught and mental energy consuming activity to sit mental energy consuming activity to sit mental energy consuming activity to sit in a room or on a Zoom screen and try to in a room or on a Zoom screen and try to in a room or on a Zoom screen and try to manage all these different people and manage all these different people and manage all these different people and how do I look and what am I saying and how do I look and what am I saying and how do I look and what am I saying and what's going on here and I have to say what's going on here and I have to say what's going on here and I have to say the right things. It's draining and you the right things. It's draining and you the right things. It's draining and you come out of something like that, it's come out of something like that, it's come out of something like that, it's difficult just to jump right back into difficult just to jump right back into difficult just to jump right back into something else. And if you come out of something else. And if you come out of something else. And if you come out of something like that and there was a lot something like that and there was a lot something like that and there was a lot of obligations generated, oh, we of obligations generated, oh, we of obligations generated, oh, we discussed in this meeting things I need discussed in this meeting things I need discussed in this meeting things I need to do and now you try to go straight to do and now you try to go straight to do and now you try to go straight from that meeting into another. Well, from that meeting into another. Well, from that meeting into another. Well, now that's really in the back of your now that's really in the back of your now that's really in the back of your head. What about this? What about this? head. What about this? What about this? head. What about this? What about this? We can't forget this. We just made our We can't forget this. We just made our We can't forget this. We just made our obligations. That that feeling of obligations. That that feeling of obligations. That that feeling of fatigue. It's a it's a really is fatigue fatigue. It's a it's a really is fatigue fatigue. It's a it's a really is fatigue is what it feels like. A mental fatigue is what it feels like. A mental fatigue is what it feels like. A mental fatigue like there's a sand in your brain. Sand like there's a sand in your brain. Sand like there's a sand in your brain. Sand in the gears of your brain. That's the in the gears of your brain. That's the in the gears of your brain. That's the state that a lot of people who work in state that a lot of people who work in state that a lot of people who work in front of a computer screen like that's front of a computer screen like that's front of a computer screen like that's the state they're in most of the day. the state they're in most of the day. the state they're in most of the day. and they don't even realize, oh, that's and they don't even realize, oh, that's and they don't even realize, oh, that's a bad feeling. That's a negative state. a bad feeling. That's a negative state. a bad feeling. That's a negative state. That's that's not how it needs to feel That's that's not how it needs to feel That's that's not how it needs to feel because you have nothing else to compare because you have nothing else to compare because you have nothing else to compare it to. Yeah. The amount of things we're it to. Yeah. The amount of things we're it to. Yeah. The amount of things we're doing, the amount we're trying to switch doing, the amount we're trying to switch doing, the amount we're trying to switch back and forth. I always thought that back and forth. I always thought that back and forth. I always thought that part of the problem was a lot of our part of the problem was a lot of our part of the problem was a lot of our current thought about work culture and current thought about work culture and current thought about work culture and hustling and what it means to produce hustling and what it means to produce hustling and what it means to produce was influenced by Silicon Valley in the was influenced by Silicon Valley in the was influenced by Silicon Valley in the 90s and 2000s because that was 90s and 2000s because that was 90s and 2000s because that was considered this very um ascendant part considered this very um ascendant part considered this very um ascendant part of the economy you know through the of the economy you know through the of the economy you know through the 2000s through the Steve Job era we 2000s through the Steve Job era we 2000s through the Steve Job era we looked at Silicon Valley these are the looked at Silicon Valley these are the looked at Silicon Valley these are the coolest companies they're doing all the coolest companies they're doing all the coolest companies they're doing all the coolest stuff over there I think they coolest stuff over there I think they coolest stuff over there I think they adopted a model of work that was very adopted a model of work that was very adopted a model of work that was very inspired by computer processors Right. inspired by computer processors Right. inspired by computer processors Right. So because that was what was in the air So because that was what was in the air So because that was what was in the air in the 80s and 90s in Silicon Valley was in the 80s and 90s in Silicon Valley was in the 80s and 90s in Silicon Valley was the computer processor worse. You know the computer processor worse. You know the computer processor worse. You know the 386 versus the 486 versus the the 386 versus the 486 versus the the 386 versus the 486 versus the Pentium. And it was all about speed. And Pentium. And it was all about speed. And Pentium. And it was all about speed. And the thing with a computer processor if the thing with a computer processor if the thing with a computer processor if you're a computer type what matters is you're a computer type what matters is you're a computer type what matters is uh you never want the pipeline to be uh you never want the pipeline to be uh you never want the pipeline to be empty, right? You want to always make empty, right? You want to always make empty, right? You want to always make sure you have stuff for that processor sure you have stuff for that processor sure you have stuff for that processor to do so. So it never wastes time. The to do so. So it never wastes time. The to do so. So it never wastes time. The processor will every command you give processor will every command you give processor will every command you give it, it operates the same as any other. it, it operates the same as any other. it, it operates the same as any other. It can switch. It doesn't care what they It can switch. It doesn't care what they It can switch. It doesn't care what they are. It just sits there and operates one are. It just sits there and operates one are. It just sits there and operates one command after another. And the whole command after another. And the whole command after another. And the whole game with getting processors to be game with getting processors to be game with getting processors to be effective is like don't have downtime. effective is like don't have downtime. effective is like don't have downtime. Like the real fear, I can put on my Like the real fear, I can put on my Like the real fear, I can put on my computer scientist hat for a second. The computer scientist hat for a second. The computer scientist hat for a second. The real fear in computer processor design real fear in computer processor design real fear in computer processor design is that you sometimes get to a command is that you sometimes get to a command is that you sometimes get to a command that's going to generate a huge delay. that's going to generate a huge delay. that's going to generate a huge delay. So you say like, oh, go get something So you say like, oh, go get something So you say like, oh, go get something from memory. Uh that takes a lot of time from memory. Uh that takes a lot of time from memory. Uh that takes a lot of time from the perspective like a computer from the perspective like a computer from the perspective like a computer processor cycle. It's just sitting there processor cycle. It's just sitting there processor cycle. It's just sitting there cycle after cycle doing nothing while cycle after cycle doing nothing while cycle after cycle doing nothing while you're waiting for the memory bus or you're waiting for the memory bus or you're waiting for the memory bus or whatever. So we invented these processor whatever. So we invented these processor whatever. So we invented these processor pipelines like oh while we're waiting to pipelines like oh while we're waiting to pipelines like oh while we're waiting to get something back from memory here's get something back from memory here's get something back from memory here's some other stuff the processor can run some other stuff the processor can run some other stuff the processor can run so that it's never not working and the so that it's never not working and the so that it's never not working and the idea was you want to move as fast as idea was you want to move as fast as idea was you want to move as fast as possible and you never want to have possible and you never want to have possible and you never want to have downtime and that's how you get the most downtime and that's how you get the most downtime and that's how you get the most out of a computer processor. The human out of a computer processor. The human out of a computer processor. The human brain is like 180 degrees different. We brain is like 180 degrees different. We brain is like 180 degrees different. We can't just switch back and forth between can't just switch back and forth between can't just switch back and forth between unrelated commands. You switch me from unrelated commands. You switch me from unrelated commands. You switch me from one to another thing and boom 30 minutes one to another thing and boom 30 minutes one to another thing and boom 30 minutes of my mind is fried. Humans operate very of my mind is fried. Humans operate very of my mind is fried. Humans operate very differently. But I think Silicon Valley differently. But I think Silicon Valley differently. But I think Silicon Valley associated it said here's the thing associated it said here's the thing associated it said here's the thing we're going to associate with being we're going to associate with being we're going to associate with being really good at your job. It might have really good at your job. It might have really good at your job. It might have used I don't know your skill. It was uh used I don't know your skill. It was uh used I don't know your skill. It was uh Don Draper and Madman. Remember that Don Draper and Madman. Remember that Don Draper and Madman. Remember that conception of of what does it mean to be conception of of what does it mean to be conception of of what does it mean to be good at your job? They weren't showing good at your job? They weren't showing good at your job? They weren't showing Don Draper grinding it out like man Don Don Draper grinding it out like man Don Don Draper grinding it out like man Don Draper is like in the office till you Draper is like in the office till you Draper is like in the office till you know 3:00 a.m. every night or whatever. know 3:00 a.m. every night or whatever. know 3:00 a.m. every night or whatever. Now he took the five o'clock train back Now he took the five o'clock train back Now he took the five o'clock train back to you know Connecticut or whatever. It to you know Connecticut or whatever. It to you know Connecticut or whatever. It was he he was really really good at was he he was really really good at was he he was really really good at coming up with ad copy. He was good at coming up with ad copy. He was good at coming up with ad copy. He was good at what he did. That's what you used to what he did. That's what you used to what he did. That's what you used to respect. And then after the 80s, 90s, respect. And then after the 80s, 90s, respect. And then after the 80s, 90s, Silicon Valley became pervasive. Like, Silicon Valley became pervasive. Like, Silicon Valley became pervasive. Like, no, what matters is you never have a no, what matters is you never have a no, what matters is you never have a noop. You never have a down cycle. You noop. You never have a down cycle. You noop. You never have a down cycle. You might as well say yes to more things. might as well say yes to more things. might as well say yes to more things. You might as well get more emails. You You might as well get more emails. You You might as well get more emails. You never have time or you're not working. never have time or you're not working. never have time or you're not working. That's what productivity is going to be. That's what productivity is going to be. That's what productivity is going to be. And that was a disaster for the human And that was a disaster for the human And that was a disaster for the human brain. If you struggle to stay asleep brain. If you struggle to stay asleep brain. If you struggle to stay asleep because your body gets too hot or too because your body gets too hot or too because your body gets too hot or too cold, this is going to help. Eight just cold, this is going to help. Eight just cold, this is going to help. 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Which is why it has been clinically Which is why it has been clinically Which is why it has been clinically proven to increase total sleep by up to proven to increase total sleep by up to proven to increase total sleep by up to 1 hour every night. Best of all, they've 1 hour every night. Best of all, they've 1 hour every night. Best of all, they've got a 30-day sleep trial, so you can buy got a 30-day sleep trial, so you can buy got a 30-day sleep trial, so you can buy it and sleep on it for 29 nights. And if it and sleep on it for 29 nights. And if it and sleep on it for 29 nights. And if you don't like it, they will give you you don't like it, they will give you you don't like it, they will give you your money back. Plus, they ship your money back. Plus, they ship your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get internationally. Right now, you can get internationally. Right now, you can get up to $350 off the pod 5 by going to the up to $350 off the pod 5 by going to the up to $350 off the pod 5 by going to the link in the description below or heading link in the description below or heading link in the description below or heading to eightsleep.com/modernwisdomdom to eightsleep.com/modernwisdomdom to eightsleep.com/modernwisdomdom using the code modernwisdom a checkout. using the code modernwisdom a checkout. using the code modernwisdom a checkout. That's ei.com/modernwisdism and modernwisdom a checkout. and modernwisdom a checkout. There's definitely an element of this There's definitely an element of this There's definitely an element of this that it's very that it's very that it's very public productivity. It's very obvious. public productivity. It's very obvious. public productivity. It's very obvious. Look at how hard I'm working. Right? If Look at how hard I'm working. Right? If Look at how hard I'm working. Right? If you're the one that replies quickest on you're the one that replies quickest on you're the one that replies quickest on Slack or on email, then it's evident Slack or on email, then it's evident Slack or on email, then it's evident that you're the one. It looks like that you're the one. It looks like that you're the one. It looks like you're the one that's working hardest you're the one that's working hardest you're the one that's working hardest because you're the one that's most because you're the one that's most because you're the one that's most responsive. Whereas the person who's responsive. Whereas the person who's responsive. Whereas the person who's silently working on their own, they silently working on their own, they silently working on their own, they can't broadcast it by design. They can't can't broadcast it by design. They can't can't broadcast it by design. They can't broadcast it to everybody else. So yeah, broadcast it to everybody else. So yeah, broadcast it to everybody else. So yeah, this uh um obvious productivity in a way this uh um obvious productivity in a way this uh um obvious productivity in a way is way less sexy. So I think you know is way less sexy. So I think you know is way less sexy. So I think you know the new elephant in the room is AI and the new elephant in the room is AI and the new elephant in the room is AI and how that is how that is how that is enabling an increase in pace enabling an increase in pace enabling an increase in pace uh of output but almost certainly a uh of output but almost certainly a uh of output but almost certainly a decrease in quality. So decrease in quality. So decrease in quality. So fold AI into your existing fold AI into your existing fold AI into your existing world view because to me it just seems world view because to me it just seems world view because to me it just seems like a huge force multiplier for what like a huge force multiplier for what like a huge force multiplier for what already was pretty sloppy. Slack, email, already was pretty sloppy. Slack, email, already was pretty sloppy. Slack, email, async communication that's always on, async communication that's always on, async communication that's always on, people taking their work home with them, people taking their work home with them, people taking their work home with them, never being able to not context switch, never being able to not context switch, never being able to not context switch, not focusing on quality and instead not focusing on quality and instead not focusing on quality and instead focusing on quantity, not being able to focusing on quantity, not being able to focusing on quantity, not being able to to dial themselves in to do deep work to dial themselves in to do deep work to dial themselves in to do deep work for one moment. And now for one moment. And now for one moment. And now that is that is that is enhanced and magnified even more by the enhanced and magnified even more by the enhanced and magnified even more by the use of LLMs to help you put out more, to use of LLMs to help you put out more, to use of LLMs to help you put out more, to help you think less. So your focus is help you think less. So your focus is help you think less. So your focus is actually you're you're in Slack with actually you're you're in Slack with actually you're you're in Slack with your LLM. It wouldn't surprise me if your LLM. It wouldn't surprise me if your LLM. It wouldn't surprise me if there is a LLM integration into Slack at there is a LLM integration into Slack at there is a LLM integration into Slack at some point in future. I don't know some point in future. I don't know some point in future. I don't know whether there is um where you can just whether there is um where you can just whether there is um where you can just do it in there. So you're just talking do it in there. So you're just talking do it in there. So you're just talking back and forth in one [ __ ] workspace. back and forth in one [ __ ] workspace. back and forth in one [ __ ] workspace. Talk to me. Fold AI into this. You must Talk to me. Fold AI into this. You must Talk to me. Fold AI into this. You must have a million thoughts. Oh, there's a have a million thoughts. Oh, there's a have a million thoughts. Oh, there's a lot going on with AI. Uh, I mean, I lot going on with AI. Uh, I mean, I lot going on with AI. Uh, I mean, I think in its current instantiation, so think in its current instantiation, so think in its current instantiation, so we think about like an office worker for we think about like an office worker for we think about like an office worker for the most part put programmers aside. the most part put programmers aside. the most part put programmers aside. I'll get back to them, but I'll get back to them, but I'll get back to them, but non-programmers are really interact with non-programmers are really interact with non-programmers are really interact with chatbots. Like, that's the main way chatbots. Like, that's the main way chatbots. Like, that's the main way they're integrating right now with AI. they're integrating right now with AI. they're integrating right now with AI. It's exagger exactly what you said. For It's exagger exactly what you said. For It's exagger exactly what you said. For a lot of people, it's exaggerating the a lot of people, it's exaggerating the a lot of people, it's exaggerating the problems that already exist. Now, problems that already exist. Now, problems that already exist. Now, there's a term for this that comes out there's a term for this that comes out there's a term for this that comes out of a Harvard Business Review article of a Harvard Business Review article of a Harvard Business Review article from last year. They call it work slop from last year. They call it work slop from last year. They call it work slop they put together as one word and they they put together as one word and they they put together as one word and they have some pretty compelling data on it. have some pretty compelling data on it. have some pretty compelling data on it. >> So what's work? Define work slop for me. >> So what's work? Define work slop for me. >> So what's work? Define work slop for me. >> So work slop is AI generated work >> So work slop is AI generated work >> So work slop is AI generated work products in the knowledge work sector. products in the knowledge work sector. products in the knowledge work sector. So like emails, reports and powerpoints So like emails, reports and powerpoints So like emails, reports and powerpoints or what have you that are generated or what have you that are generated or what have you that are generated quickly by AI but they're so low quality quickly by AI but they're so low quality quickly by AI but they're so low quality that they actually it's very difficult that they actually it's very difficult that they actually it's very difficult that they make everyone else's jobs that they make everyone else's jobs that they make everyone else's jobs harder. This seems to be this is like harder. This seems to be this is like harder. This seems to be this is like the defining aspect of work slob. that's the defining aspect of work slob. that's the defining aspect of work slob. that's quick to produce, but it's so low value quick to produce, but it's so low value quick to produce, but it's so low value that it actually no real progress is that it actually no real progress is that it actually no real progress is made. So, like you get a work slop email made. So, like you get a work slop email made. So, like you get a work slop email from, you know, your boss or whatever, from, you know, your boss or whatever, from, you know, your boss or whatever, and like this isn't useful to me. It's and like this isn't useful to me. It's and like this isn't useful to me. It's this weird wordy thing that's broken up this weird wordy thing that's broken up this weird wordy thing that's broken up into sections and it doesn't get to the into sections and it doesn't get to the into sections and it doesn't get to the core of the problem we have to solve. core of the problem we have to solve. core of the problem we have to solve. So, you made that email quick, but in So, you made that email quick, but in So, you made that email quick, but in the bigger uh scheme of things, we made the bigger uh scheme of things, we made the bigger uh scheme of things, we made very little progress towards uh what we very little progress towards uh what we very little progress towards uh what we want to do. or you put together a work want to do. or you put together a work want to do. or you put together a work slot PowerPoint presentation so that you slot PowerPoint presentation so that you slot PowerPoint presentation so that you would have something at the meeting but would have something at the meeting but would have something at the meeting but now we're spending 20 minutes looking at now we're spending 20 minutes looking at now we're spending 20 minutes looking at this nonsense and nothing it's not this nonsense and nothing it's not this nonsense and nothing it's not helping us it's not helping us actually helping us it's not helping us actually helping us it's not helping us actually do things so this is what's happening or do things so this is what's happening or do things so this is what's happening or at least my fear I mean the reality is at least my fear I mean the reality is at least my fear I mean the reality is most people aren't using these tools in most people aren't using these tools in most people aren't using these tools in the office uh I let's just set the the office uh I let's just set the the office uh I let's just set the reality right so but for the people who reality right so but for the people who reality right so but for the people who are using them right now um which is a are using them right now um which is a are using them right now um which is a healthy percentage but it's not healthy percentage but it's not healthy percentage but it's not >> you know what the numbers are >> you know what the numbers are >> you know what the numbers are >> well it's difficult because there's a >> well it's difficult because there's a >> well it's difficult because there's a lot of fudging of the numbers here lot of fudging of the numbers here lot of fudging of the numbers here there's a lot of mistaking taking have there's a lot of mistaking taking have there's a lot of mistaking taking have used or experimented with with are used or experimented with with are used or experimented with with are regularly using them. So I see this regularly using them. So I see this regularly using them. So I see this mistake happen a lot um and so it's mistake happen a lot um and so it's mistake happen a lot um and so it's difficult to get good numbers. There difficult to get good numbers. There difficult to get good numbers. There there was like famously um maybe it was there was like famously um maybe it was there was like famously um maybe it was an Ethan Malik article where he was an Ethan Malik article where he was an Ethan Malik article where he was talking about in my world like academia talking about in my world like academia talking about in my world like academia the homework apocalypse and he's like the homework apocalypse and he's like the homework apocalypse and he's like look at this study students just don't look at this study students just don't look at this study students just don't do work anymore. Nine out of 10 are just do work anymore. Nine out of 10 are just do work anymore. Nine out of 10 are just using chatbots now. But you look at that using chatbots now. But you look at that using chatbots now. But you look at that study and what it actually said was nine study and what it actually said was nine study and what it actually said was nine out of 10 had tried using a chatbot at out of 10 had tried using a chatbot at out of 10 had tried using a chatbot at least once and if you looked at who's least once and if you looked at who's least once and if you looked at who's using them regularly it was like two out using them regularly it was like two out using them regularly it was like two out of 10 right because like for most of the of 10 right because like for most of the of 10 right because like for most of the students it was wasn't helping them the students it was wasn't helping them the students it was wasn't helping them the way they thought it would. So I don't way they thought it would. So I don't way they thought it would. So I don't know what the numbers are. Um, if you know what the numbers are. Um, if you know what the numbers are. Um, if you count like advanced Google use, I think count like advanced Google use, I think count like advanced Google use, I think it's larger. Like, yeah, I searched for it's larger. Like, yeah, I searched for it's larger. Like, yeah, I searched for information on this instead of going to information on this instead of going to information on this instead of going to Google, that's larger. But in terms of Google, that's larger. But in terms of Google, that's larger. But in terms of people who are actually making office people who are actually making office people who are actually making office work product out of it, I think it's work product out of it, I think it's work product out of it, I think it's smaller smaller smaller >> than the people who follow AI commentary >> than the people who follow AI commentary >> than the people who follow AI commentary or talk about it on AI Twitter, AI or talk about it on AI Twitter, AI or talk about it on AI Twitter, AI YouTube, I think it's a lot smaller than YouTube, I think it's a lot smaller than YouTube, I think it's a lot smaller than they probably assume just because in they probably assume just because in they probably assume just because in their world, it's pervasive. But the their world, it's pervasive. But the their world, it's pervasive. But the people who are using it, this is the people who are using it, this is the people who are using it, this is the problem, uh, they're trying to avoid. problem, uh, they're trying to avoid. problem, uh, they're trying to avoid. This is my theory on this is like what This is my theory on this is like what This is my theory on this is like what how is AI helping like an office worker how is AI helping like an office worker how is AI helping like an office worker now? Well, their brain is exhausted from now? Well, their brain is exhausted from now? Well, their brain is exhausted from all this context switching. all this context switching. all this context switching. >> So, what problem are they looking to >> So, what problem are they looking to >> So, what problem are they looking to solve? solve? solve? >> They're looking to avoid having to do >> They're looking to avoid having to do >> They're looking to avoid having to do hard moments of cognition because their hard moments of cognition because their hard moments of cognition because their brain is so fried. brain is so fried. brain is so fried. >> It's really difficult to like solve the >> It's really difficult to like solve the >> It's really difficult to like solve the blank page problem. Oh god, I got to blank page problem. Oh god, I got to blank page problem. Oh god, I got to send this email. I got to it's a blank send this email. I got to it's a blank send this email. I got to it's a blank screen. I got to start writing from screen. I got to start writing from screen. I got to start writing from scratch. That's really hard. Yeah. scratch. That's really hard. Yeah. scratch. That's really hard. Yeah. the inertia that they've been trained the inertia that they've been trained the inertia that they've been trained out of overcoming because of the primer. out of overcoming because of the primer. out of overcoming because of the primer. It's almost like a a one-two punch. It's almost like a a one-two punch. It's almost like a a one-two punch. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Humans were primed to not like heavy co >> Humans were primed to not like heavy co >> Humans were primed to not like heavy co Well, we already didn't like heavy Well, we already didn't like heavy Well, we already didn't like heavy cognitive load. Then our ability to deal cognitive load. Then our ability to deal cognitive load. Then our ability to deal with it and get through that initial with it and get through that initial with it and get through that initial resistance was decreased through the resistance was decreased through the resistance was decreased through the context switching. And now we're don't context switching. And now we're don't context switching. And now we're don't worry about it. Don't worry about don't worry about it. Don't worry about don't worry about it. Don't worry about don't worry about it. Carbon based life forms, worry about it. Carbon based life forms, worry about it. Carbon based life forms, the siliconbased life forms are coming. the siliconbased life forms are coming. the siliconbased life forms are coming. And let's throw in one uh one one other And let's throw in one uh one one other And let's throw in one uh one one other aspect in there also. Outside of work, aspect in there also. Outside of work, aspect in there also. Outside of work, we had these distraction machines in our we had these distraction machines in our we had these distraction machines in our hand that were further degrading our hand that were further degrading our hand that were further degrading our comfort with concentration because any comfort with concentration because any comfort with concentration because any possible moment of introspection we possible moment of introspection we possible moment of introspection we would have had even outside of work. Why would have had even outside of work. Why would have had even outside of work. Why would I do that when Tik Tok has like would I do that when Tik Tok has like would I do that when Tik Tok has like the perfect dash cam video of you know a the perfect dash cam video of you know a the perfect dash cam video of you know a Karen getting punched or something like Karen getting punched or something like Karen getting punched or something like I got to watch that right? I got to watch that right? I got to watch that right? >> Uh and so we've we we have that >> Uh and so we've we we have that >> Uh and so we've we we have that revolution comes along plus the email revolution comes along plus the email revolution comes along plus the email revolution. We completely atrophy our revolution. We completely atrophy our revolution. We completely atrophy our ability to think and we exhaust our ability to think and we exhaust our ability to think and we exhaust our brain. The other aspect of it as we brain. The other aspect of it as we brain. The other aspect of it as we talked about it's really exhausting to talked about it's really exhausting to talked about it's really exhausting to go through your day go through your day go through your day >> context switching. So like I don't have >> context switching. So like I don't have >> context switching. So like I don't have any reserves left to write this any reserves left to write this any reserves left to write this PowerPoint. That seems impossible. And PowerPoint. That seems impossible. And PowerPoint. That seems impossible. And then AI is like hey I can do it for you. then AI is like hey I can do it for you. then AI is like hey I can do it for you. It'll be fine. It'll be fine. It'll be It'll be fine. It'll be fine. It'll be It'll be fine. It'll be fine. It'll be good enough. It'll be good enough. good enough. It'll be good enough. good enough. It'll be good enough. You're like oh okay I can smooth over I You're like oh okay I can smooth over I You're like oh okay I can smooth over I use this analogy in a New Yorker piece use this analogy in a New Yorker piece use this analogy in a New Yorker piece last year. It's like it takes your last year. It's like it takes your last year. It's like it takes your effort graph looks like spikes like an effort graph looks like spikes like an effort graph looks like spikes like an EKG or something like that and AI EKG or something like that and AI EKG or something like that and AI smooths over those peaks and so you smooths over those peaks and so you smooths over those peaks and so you don't have to your peak concentration don't have to your peak concentration don't have to your peak concentration required can come down like well you can required can come down like well you can required can come down like well you can fill the blank page and then maybe I fill the blank page and then maybe I fill the blank page and then maybe I have to work with it a little bit that's have to work with it a little bit that's have to work with it a little bit that's easier than doing it from scratch but easier than doing it from scratch but easier than doing it from scratch but the stuff being produced is no good and the stuff being produced is no good and the stuff being produced is no good and so I feel like work slop it's almost so I feel like work slop it's almost so I feel like work slop it's almost less of a uh it's less of a um critique less of a uh it's less of a um critique less of a uh it's less of a um critique of AI than it is AI making obvious a of AI than it is AI making obvious a of AI than it is AI making obvious a problem with the way we were already problem with the way we were already problem with the way we were already working. I think that's what's going on working. I think that's what's going on working. I think that's what's going on there. I think this is even happening there. I think this is even happening there. I think this is even happening with computer programmers. This is with computer programmers. This is with computer programmers. This is considered, you know, heretical right considered, you know, heretical right considered, you know, heretical right now, but I guess I'm used to being now, but I guess I'm used to being now, but I guess I'm used to being yelled at. Uh people are really excited yelled at. Uh people are really excited yelled at. Uh people are really excited by this workflow where I have seven or by this workflow where I have seven or by this workflow where I have seven or eight cloud code agents going eight cloud code agents going eight cloud code agents going concurrently producing code and testing concurrently producing code and testing concurrently producing code and testing them and I'm just a manager of all these them and I'm just a manager of all these them and I'm just a manager of all these different processes and they're all different processes and they're all different processes and they're all producing this code on my behalf and it producing this code on my behalf and it producing this code on my behalf and it feels really cool and interesting like feels really cool and interesting like feels really cool and interesting like this has to be the future. I don't know this has to be the future. I don't know this has to be the future. I don't know that that is I mean I don't know the that that is I mean I don't know the that that is I mean I don't know the context. The problem is outside of like context. The problem is outside of like context. The problem is outside of like demos or internal tools or just having demos or internal tools or just having demos or internal tools or just having fun, that's not really code you can fun, that's not really code you can fun, that's not really code you can trust very well. And it it does though trust very well. And it it does though trust very well. And it it does though completely lower the peaks of being a completely lower the peaks of being a completely lower the peaks of being a computer programmer, those peaks of computer programmer, those peaks of computer programmer, those peaks of cognition. It's much much easier to cognition. It's much much easier to cognition. It's much much easier to manage a bunch of clawed code processes manage a bunch of clawed code processes manage a bunch of clawed code processes than it is to come up with an algorithm. than it is to come up with an algorithm. than it is to come up with an algorithm. And you have that same blank page. So And you have that same blank page. So And you have that same blank page. So I'm I think the jury is still out on I'm I think the jury is still out on I'm I think the jury is still out on even where we're going to end up in the even where we're going to end up in the even where we're going to end up in the AI impact on programming. I don't know AI impact on programming. I don't know AI impact on programming. I don't know where it's going to end up, but the way where it's going to end up, but the way where it's going to end up, but the way it's being talked about in the last few it's being talked about in the last few it's being talked about in the last few months after the latest Cloud Code uh months after the latest Cloud Code uh months after the latest Cloud Code uh update, which is sort of I guess that's update, which is sort of I guess that's update, which is sort of I guess that's something humans don't do anymore. something humans don't do anymore. something humans don't do anymore. >> I don't think we're there ready to say >> I don't think we're there ready to say >> I don't think we're there ready to say that yet. I get popped with Claude Code that yet. I get popped with Claude Code that yet. I get popped with Claude Code ads. I get I I you give me a terminal, I ads. I get I I you give me a terminal, I ads. I get I I you give me a terminal, I have no idea what to do. I'm like I'm have no idea what to do. I'm like I'm have no idea what to do. I'm like I'm like, you know, someone's grandmother like, you know, someone's grandmother like, you know, someone's grandmother trying to use an iPad. I have no idea trying to use an iPad. I have no idea trying to use an iPad. I have no idea what's going on. So, they are pushing what's going on. So, they are pushing what's going on. So, they are pushing very very hard at the moment for this. very very hard at the moment for this. very very hard at the moment for this. It's it's kind it's funny but it's a It's it's kind it's funny but it's a It's it's kind it's funny but it's a little bit crazy but it's my world right little bit crazy but it's my world right little bit crazy but it's my world right I'm computer scientist is that uh for I'm computer scientist is that uh for I'm computer scientist is that uh for engineer computer scientist types they engineer computer scientist types they engineer computer scientist types they they forget how technically advanced they forget how technically advanced they forget how technically advanced they are. So yeah, cloud code uh works they are. So yeah, cloud code uh works they are. So yeah, cloud code uh works in the terminal, right? And that's why in the terminal, right? And that's why in the terminal, right? And that's why it works so well. It exists in a world it works so well. It exists in a world it works so well. It exists in a world of text only text command line commands of text only text command line commands of text only text command line commands like the old DOS command line. It's all like the old DOS command line. It's all like the old DOS command line. It's all text commands um which you can do a lot text commands um which you can do a lot text commands um which you can do a lot with. You can create and edit and with. You can create and edit and with. You can create and edit and compile computer programs. So it's very compile computer programs. So it's very compile computer programs. So it's very good at that. And it's a limited set of good at that. And it's a limited set of good at that. And it's a limited set of textual commands. That's perfect for a textual commands. That's perfect for a textual commands. That's perfect for a language model. Um and the engineers are language model. Um and the engineers are language model. Um and the engineers are like, oh, we can use this terminalbased like, oh, we can use this terminalbased like, oh, we can use this terminalbased tool to do all sorts of other stuff tool to do all sorts of other stuff tool to do all sorts of other stuff that's not computer programming. Great. that's not computer programming. Great. that's not computer programming. Great. This is the pro. this has solved the This is the pro. this has solved the This is the pro. this has solved the pro. Everyone's going to be doing this. pro. Everyone's going to be doing this. pro. Everyone's going to be doing this. Everyone is going to have these sort of Everyone is going to have these sort of Everyone is going to have these sort of personal assistance based on something personal assistance based on something personal assistance based on something on cloud code. I'm like, man, do you on cloud code. I'm like, man, do you on cloud code. I'm like, man, do you realize how foreign a command line realize how foreign a command line realize how foreign a command line interface is to people? You realize like interface is to people? You realize like interface is to people? You realize like how weird and nerdy and complicated your how weird and nerdy and complicated your how weird and nerdy and complicated your world is? You're like, yeah, this will world is? You're like, yeah, this will world is? You're like, yeah, this will be great. My grandma will just on the be great. My grandma will just on the be great. My grandma will just on the command line understand that like the command line understand that like the command line understand that like the cloud code agent can bring up a bash cloud code agent can bring up a bash cloud code agent can bring up a bash script that's just going to cat those script that's just going to cat those script that's just going to cat those files over to the the regx GP, you know, files over to the the regx GP, you know, files over to the the regx GP, you know, and it'll be fine. They don't no one and it'll be fine. They don't no one and it'll be fine. They don't no one knows how to do any of that type of knows how to do any of that type of knows how to do any of that type of stuff. So, it's sort of funny seeing the stuff. So, it's sort of funny seeing the stuff. So, it's sort of funny seeing the engineers building these incredibly engineers building these incredibly engineers building these incredibly intricate, nerdy, wonderful tools intricate, nerdy, wonderful tools intricate, nerdy, wonderful tools they've customuilt for cloud code to they've customuilt for cloud code to they've customuilt for cloud code to help them in their life and they think help them in their life and they think help them in their life and they think the gap between that and everyone else the gap between that and everyone else the gap between that and everyone else having AI automate things in their life having AI automate things in their life having AI automate things in their life is like, "Oh, it's this real small is like, "Oh, it's this real small is like, "Oh, it's this real small thing." I'm like, "Oh, man. I don't thing." I'm like, "Oh, man. I don't thing." I'm like, "Oh, man. I don't think you understand." I mean, people think you understand." I mean, people think you understand." I mean, people are still not quite sure about the right are still not quite sure about the right are still not quite sure about the right click. I think you got you still have a click. I think you got you still have a click. I think you got you still have a ways to go before they're ways to go before they're ways to go before they're >> I see this uh I I saw this this tweet uh >> I see this uh I I saw this this tweet uh >> I see this uh I I saw this this tweet uh from Robert Frlaw from Robert Frlaw from Robert Frlaw uh lawyer uses chat GPT to help write a uh lawyer uses chat GPT to help write a uh lawyer uses chat GPT to help write a brief chat GPT hallucinates cases in brief chat GPT hallucinates cases in brief chat GPT hallucinates cases in quotations court sanctions lawyer and quotations court sanctions lawyer and quotations court sanctions lawyer and four co-consel for not catching the four co-consel for not catching the four co-consel for not catching the errors the lawyer who used chat GPT has errors the lawyer who used chat GPT has errors the lawyer who used chat GPT has practiced for over 30 years he prompted practiced for over 30 years he prompted practiced for over 30 years he prompted prompted chhat GPT write an order that prompted chhat GPT write an order that prompted chhat GPT write an order that denies the motion to strike with case denies the motion to strike with case denies the motion to strike with case law support told the court he doesn't law support told the court he doesn't law support told the court he doesn't normally use chacht and he used it this normally use chacht and he used it this normally use chacht and he used it this time cuz he was caring for his dying time cuz he was caring for his dying time cuz he was caring for his dying family members said no of his co-consil family members said no of his co-consil family members said no of his co-consil were aware of this use of generative AI were aware of this use of generative AI were aware of this use of generative AI course says that because all five course says that because all five course says that because all five attorneys signed both documents that attorneys signed both documents that attorneys signed both documents that included these errors and they admit included these errors and they admit included these errors and they admit that not one of them verified that the that not one of them verified that the that not one of them verified that the case law in those briefs actually exist case law in those briefs actually exist case law in those briefs actually exist their conduct violates rule 11b2 their conduct violates rule 11b2 their conduct violates rule 11b2 there's hundreds of those happening there's hundreds of those happening there's hundreds of those happening right I I heard I don't know where this right I I heard I don't know where this right I I heard I don't know where this site is there's a site that tracks this site is there's a site that tracks this site is there's a site that tracks this lawyers getting busted for chat GPT lawyers getting busted for chat GPT lawyers getting busted for chat GPT written briefs that just make things written briefs that just make things written briefs that just make things because it will for sure make up things because it will for sure make up things because it will for sure make up things if you ask it because again what it if you ask it because again what it if you ask it because again what it tries to do is you know not to get tries to do is you know not to get tries to do is you know not to get people know this but right at the very people know this but right at the very people know this but right at the very bottom what is a language model trying bottom what is a language model trying bottom what is a language model trying to do is trying to solve the word to do is trying to solve the word to do is trying to solve the word guessing game that's how it was trained guessing game that's how it was trained guessing game that's how it was trained it was given real text you knock out a it was given real text you knock out a it was given real text you knock out a word and say replace that word can you word and say replace that word can you word and say replace that word can you figure out what word was really there in figure out what word was really there in figure out what word was really there in the real text so the language models the real text so the language models the real text so the language models just think they're trying to expand a just think they're trying to expand a just think they're trying to expand a real text that really existed so they're real text that really existed so they're real text that really existed so they're trying to produce text that makes sense trying to produce text that makes sense trying to produce text that makes sense given the prompt They're not there's not given the prompt They're not there's not given the prompt They're not there's not world models or structured reasoning in world models or structured reasoning in world models or structured reasoning in there of like, okay, this is a legal there of like, okay, this is a legal there of like, okay, this is a legal brief and we have a notion of a brief and we have a notion of a brief and we have a notion of a citation. Uh we don't know how it thinks citation. Uh we don't know how it thinks citation. Uh we don't know how it thinks about that. There's hundreds and about that. There's hundreds and about that. There's hundreds and hundreds of cases of this happening. I hundreds of cases of this happening. I hundreds of cases of this happening. I heard Scott Galloway talk about this on heard Scott Galloway talk about this on heard Scott Galloway talk about this on the Pivot podcast that he track there's the Pivot podcast that he track there's the Pivot podcast that he track there's some site that tracks this that he keeps some site that tracks this that he keeps some site that tracks this that he keeps an eye on and he says it astounds you. an eye on and he says it astounds you. an eye on and he says it astounds you. You think it's a handful of people. It's You think it's a handful of people. It's You think it's a handful of people. It's not. It's all the time. I got here's my not. It's all the time. I got here's my not. It's all the time. I got here's my story of getting burned by that. I sort story of getting burned by that. I sort story of getting burned by that. I sort of learned my lesson. I was working on of learned my lesson. I was working on of learned my lesson. I was working on uh because the the the one way I'll use uh because the the the one way I'll use uh because the the the one way I'll use chat GPT is just sometimes instead of chat GPT is just sometimes instead of chat GPT is just sometimes instead of Google, right? Um especially if I'm if I Google, right? Um especially if I'm if I Google, right? Um especially if I'm if I want like instructions for how to want like instructions for how to want like instructions for how to whatever change settings on something. whatever change settings on something. whatever change settings on something. It's great. It has a lot of really It's great. It has a lot of really It's great. It has a lot of really useful useful useful >> spectacular for all of that stuff. If >> spectacular for all of that stuff. If >> spectacular for all of that stuff. If you want to use it as basically a you want to use it as basically a you want to use it as basically a glorified Wikipedia that's more glorified Wikipedia that's more glorified Wikipedia that's more instructive like instructive like instructive like >> Yeah. Yeah. And you could like Wikipedia >> Yeah. Yeah. And you could like Wikipedia >> Yeah. Yeah. And you could like Wikipedia you can ask questions of Yeah. So, so, you can ask questions of Yeah. So, so, you can ask questions of Yeah. So, so, um, I was using I was writing a an essay um, I was using I was writing a an essay um, I was using I was writing a an essay and it was on Isaac Azimov's, um, Rules and it was on Isaac Azimov's, um, Rules and it was on Isaac Azimov's, um, Rules of Robotics. This was a a New Yorker of Robotics. This was a a New Yorker of Robotics. This was a a New Yorker essay. And, um, I left my copy of iRoot. essay. And, um, I left my copy of iRoot. essay. And, um, I left my copy of iRoot. I was here in my studio and I left it at I was here in my studio and I left it at I was here in my studio and I left it at home. I was like, "Oh, I needed to add home. I was like, "Oh, I needed to add home. I was like, "Oh, I needed to add this quote, right? Uh, I left it and I this quote, right? Uh, I left it and I this quote, right? Uh, I left it and I was like, "Oh, you know what? That that was like, "Oh, you know what? That that was like, "Oh, you know what? That that story is in the public domain. It's all story is in the public domain. It's all story is in the public domain. It's all over the internet." And this seems like over the internet." And this seems like over the internet." And this seems like it would be perfect for chat GPT. like, it would be perfect for chat GPT. like, it would be perfect for chat GPT. like, "Hey, can you just grab a copy and find "Hey, can you just grab a copy and find "Hey, can you just grab a copy and find me that quote and that'll save me a me that quote and that'll save me a me that quote and that'll save me a little bit of time?" Like, "Yeah, here little bit of time?" Like, "Yeah, here little bit of time?" Like, "Yeah, here it is. Here's the quote." I was like, it is. Here's the quote." I was like, it is. Here's the quote." I was like, "Yeah, it's best roughly I remember I "Yeah, it's best roughly I remember I "Yeah, it's best roughly I remember I put in put in there." And then the fact put in put in there." And then the fact put in put in there." And then the fact checker was like, "Where's this quote checker was like, "Where's this quote checker was like, "Where's this quote from?" I like, "Yeah, it's from the from?" I like, "Yeah, it's from the from?" I like, "Yeah, it's from the story or whatever." I get the book. It story or whatever." I get the book. It story or whatever." I get the book. It had just hallucinated a quote that was had just hallucinated a quote that was had just hallucinated a quote that was more or less like what was said, right? more or less like what was said, right? more or less like what was said, right? Because again, it's kind of playing the Because again, it's kind of playing the Because again, it's kind of playing the game of this is the type of text that game of this is the type of text that game of this is the type of text that would make sense giving the prompt, but would make sense giving the prompt, but would make sense giving the prompt, but it wasn't the actual quote. it had full it wasn't the actual quote. it had full it wasn't the actual quote. it had full access to it, right? You can search access to it, right? You can search access to it, right? You can search this. It's in the public domain. So that this. It's in the public domain. So that this. It's in the public domain. So that the actual story is everywhere. So I had the actual story is everywhere. So I had the actual story is everywhere. So I had just naively assumed if you ask it for just naively assumed if you ask it for just naively assumed if you ask it for some information that exists on the some information that exists on the some information that exists on the internet that oh it'll just go find it internet that oh it'll just go find it internet that oh it'll just go find it and format it for you. Uh it didn't. And and format it for you. Uh it didn't. And and format it for you. Uh it didn't. And then I went through a whole dialogue then I went through a whole dialogue then I went through a whole dialogue with it where I was like this is not the with it where I was like this is not the with it where I was like this is not the right quote. And it's like yeah you're right quote. And it's like yeah you're right quote. And it's like yeah you're right. You know what I thought you meant right. You know what I thought you meant right. You know what I thought you meant paraphrase a quote. Here it is made up. paraphrase a quote. Here it is made up. paraphrase a quote. Here it is made up. I was like that's not the real quote. I was like that's not the real quote. I was like that's not the real quote. Can you go get the real quote and give Can you go get the real quote and give Can you go get the real quote and give it? At this point I was just it? At this point I was just it? At this point I was just experimenting. I'd already filled it in experimenting. I'd already filled it in experimenting. I'd already filled it in the article and like you're right, you the article and like you're right, you the article and like you're right, you know, I was being hasty. Here you go. I know, I was being hasty. Here you go. I know, I was being hasty. Here you go. I could not get it to give me the real could not get it to give me the real could not get it to give me the real quote. So anyways, so I I learned my quote. So anyways, so I I learned my quote. So anyways, so I I learned my lesson. I was like, oh, don't assume lesson. I was like, oh, don't assume lesson. I was like, oh, don't assume even if it's common information that it even if it's common information that it even if it's common information that it has access to. has access to. has access to. >> Dude, the desire the desire to [ __ ] >> Dude, the desire the desire to [ __ ] >> Dude, the desire the desire to [ __ ] reprimand an LLM. And I I've shouted at reprimand an LLM. And I I've shouted at reprimand an LLM. And I I've shouted at them a capital letter exclamation marks. them a capital letter exclamation marks. them a capital letter exclamation marks. It's like, what what are you doing? What It's like, what what are you doing? What It's like, what what are you doing? What are you do is what what what are you are you do is what what what are you are you do is what what what are you hoping to achieve by throwing your hoping to achieve by throwing your hoping to achieve by throwing your emotional distress at this [ __ ] emotional distress at this [ __ ] emotional distress at this [ __ ] disembodied voice on the other side? disembodied voice on the other side? disembodied voice on the other side? Okay, we bit aside. I [ __ ] love Chip Okay, we bit aside. I [ __ ] love Chip Okay, we bit aside. I [ __ ] love Chip PT. I think it's been really really PT. I think it's been really really PT. I think it's been really really fantastic for tons of things. fantastic for tons of things. fantastic for tons of things. >> It What's important is learning the >> It What's important is learning the >> It What's important is learning the limits and not using it for case law. Um limits and not using it for case law. 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What opportunities do you think an What opportunities do you think an increasing reliance on AI opens up? increasing reliance on AI opens up? increasing reliance on AI opens up? because I I get the sense that as more because I I get the sense that as more because I I get the sense that as more people use LLMs to do the work for them, people use LLMs to do the work for them, people use LLMs to do the work for them, this will create advantages in some this will create advantages in some this will create advantages in some areas for people who don't need to be areas for people who don't need to be areas for people who don't need to be reliant. So, have you thought about the reliant. So, have you thought about the reliant. So, have you thought about the the holes market openings that have will the holes market openings that have will the holes market openings that have will occur? occur? occur? >> It will. I mean, the way I think about >> It will. I mean, the way I think about >> It will. I mean, the way I think about LLM based AI versus more advanced AI LLM based AI versus more advanced AI LLM based AI versus more advanced AI that we don't know how to do yet is, you that we don't know how to do yet is, you that we don't know how to do yet is, you know, my theory is the what is being know, my theory is the what is being know, my theory is the what is being affected is going to be more narrow at affected is going to be more narrow at affected is going to be more narrow at first. It's going to be places where first. It's going to be places where first. It's going to be places where there's an exact match between what there's an exact match between what there's an exact match between what generative AI existing tools can do um generative AI existing tools can do um generative AI existing tools can do um and existing uh market sectors. We saw and existing uh market sectors. We saw and existing uh market sectors. We saw this actually the week we're recording this actually the week we're recording this actually the week we're recording this, we actually saw this reflected in this, we actually saw this reflected in this, we actually saw this reflected in the stock market. There was this the stock market. There was this the stock market. There was this interesting paradox that was going on interesting paradox that was going on interesting paradox that was going on this week where the stock price of this week where the stock price of this week where the stock price of software companies that deal with stuff software companies that deal with stuff software companies that deal with stuff that is well suited for an LLM went that is well suited for an LLM went that is well suited for an LLM went down. There there was they call it the down. There there was they call it the down. There there was they call it the the the SAS apocalypse, right? The the the SAS apocalypse, right? The the the SAS apocalypse, right? The software service apocalypse. So um you software service apocalypse. So um you software service apocalypse. So um you know companies that do like legal advice know companies that do like legal advice know companies that do like legal advice uh companies that do graphic design like uh companies that do graphic design like uh companies that do graphic design like Figma and Adobe because a lot you know Figma and Adobe because a lot you know Figma and Adobe because a lot you know we have generative image generation is we have generative image generation is we have generative image generation is making building images from scratch is making building images from scratch is making building images from scratch is less useful uh customer service. So less useful uh customer service. So less useful uh customer service. So companies that do a lot of customer companies that do a lot of customer companies that do a lot of customer service type software. We saw the stock service type software. We saw the stock service type software. We saw the stock was sliding on these very specific was sliding on these very specific was sliding on these very specific software industries because like look I software industries because like look I software industries because like look I think LLMs are going to be able to do think LLMs are going to be able to do think LLMs are going to be able to do this. It was triggered by Anthropic this. It was triggered by Anthropic this. It was triggered by Anthropic releasing some plugins that made it releasing some plugins that made it releasing some plugins that made it easier to integrate LLMs into your easier to integrate LLMs into your easier to integrate LLMs into your services without having to hire these services without having to hire these services without having to hire these other companies. other companies. other companies. >> But you would think that's would be good >> But you would think that's would be good >> But you would think that's would be good news for the big tech companies building news for the big tech companies building news for the big tech companies building the AI that's going to replace all this. the AI that's going to replace all this. the AI that's going to replace all this. >> Their stock was sliding as well. >> Their stock was sliding as well. >> Their stock was sliding as well. >> And so the big tech companies had this >> And so the big tech companies had this >> And so the big tech companies had this big slide that at the end of the week big slide that at the end of the week big slide that at the end of the week we're recording this, there was a we're recording this, there was a we're recording this, there was a rebound at the end, but it was like a rebound at the end, but it was like a rebound at the end, but it was like a trillion dollars in market cap trillion dollars in market cap trillion dollars in market cap disappeared from the the big tech disappeared from the the big tech disappeared from the the big tech companies at the same time. So what does companies at the same time. So what does companies at the same time. So what does that mean the market was betting on? that mean the market was betting on? that mean the market was betting on? what are investors betting on at that what are investors betting on at that what are investors betting on at that point what was going to happen and they point what was going to happen and they point what was going to happen and they were betting that in the near future the were betting that in the near future the were betting that in the near future the next year or two what we're going to see next year or two what we're going to see next year or two what we're going to see is uh se selective impacts in specific is uh se selective impacts in specific is uh se selective impacts in specific fields from generative AI but also that fields from generative AI but also that fields from generative AI but also that too much money is being invested in too much money is being invested in too much money is being invested in these AI companies uh as it uh already these AI companies uh as it uh already these AI companies uh as it uh already which means they're betting that they're which means they're betting that they're which means they're betting that they're not about to automate most of the not about to automate most of the not about to automate most of the economy they're not about to you know economy they're not about to you know economy they're not about to you know just one more iteration away from a huge just one more iteration away from a huge just one more iteration away from a huge economic disruption they're not they're economic disruption they're not they're economic disruption they're not they're not uh at this peak of like complete not uh at this peak of like complete not uh at this peak of like complete transformation because if they were you transformation because if they were you transformation because if they were you would be trying to increase your would be trying to increase your would be trying to increase your holdings in these companies like I don't holdings in these companies like I don't holdings in these companies like I don't care how much money they're investing care how much money they're investing care how much money they're investing these companies are going to be worth an these companies are going to be worth an these companies are going to be worth an astronomical amount of money but the astronomical amount of money but the astronomical amount of money but the market is betting I think the impact is market is betting I think the impact is market is betting I think the impact is going to be more limited in the 1 to going to be more limited in the 1 to going to be more limited in the 1 to twoyear window than uh a lot of the twoyear window than uh a lot of the twoyear window than uh a lot of the commentary was seen so I I think that's commentary was seen so I I think that's commentary was seen so I I think that's important because talk is cheap but tech important because talk is cheap but tech important because talk is cheap but tech stocks aren't and so people the way they stocks aren't and so people the way they stocks aren't and so people the way they spend their money actually often has spend their money actually often has spend their money actually often has more of I think there's a lot of more of I think there's a lot of more of I think there's a lot of information in that versus just I've information in that versus just I've information in that versus just I've been reading these articles online and been reading these articles online and been reading these articles online and my god the vibe really seems to be my god the vibe really seems to be my god the vibe really seems to be saying this is a big deal. Uh so that's saying this is a big deal. Uh so that's saying this is a big deal. Uh so that's I kind of agree with the market's I kind of agree with the market's I kind of agree with the market's consensus right now for sure there's consensus right now for sure there's consensus right now for sure there's going to be industries that are affected going to be industries that are affected going to be industries that are affected but it's not going to be one of these but it's not going to be one of these but it's not going to be one of these situations where you say okay any work situations where you say okay any work situations where you say okay any work that's not just the deepest creative that's not just the deepest creative that's not just the deepest creative work is all going to be automated the work is all going to be automated the work is all going to be automated the next few years I better go learn how to next few years I better go learn how to next few years I better go learn how to like do art or something like that. I like do art or something like that. I like do art or something like that. I don't think it's going to be that broad don't think it's going to be that broad don't think it's going to be that broad at first. I don't think the current at first. I don't think the current at first. I don't think the current generation of AI technology can support generation of AI technology can support generation of AI technology can support as broad of impacts as people think. as broad of impacts as people think. as broad of impacts as people think. There's a lot of extrapolation from There's a lot of extrapolation from There's a lot of extrapolation from well, if it can do this with code, well, if it can do this with code, well, if it can do this with code, >> certainly it could do this with all >> certainly it could do this with all >> certainly it could do this with all these other jobs. If it could do this these other jobs. If it could do this these other jobs. If it could do this with this industry, well, certainly next with this industry, well, certainly next with this industry, well, certainly next it'll do it for all these other it'll do it for all these other it'll do it for all these other industries. We have to be wary of those industries. We have to be wary of those industries. We have to be wary of those extrapolations, extrapolations, extrapolations, >> right? You you I think I read an article >> right? You you I think I read an article >> right? You you I think I read an article from you. What if AI doesn't get much from you. What if AI doesn't get much from you. What if AI doesn't get much better than this? Yeah. sort of if we better than this? Yeah. sort of if we better than this? Yeah. sort of if we have I don't know some sort of Flynn have I don't know some sort of Flynn have I don't know some sort of Flynn effect thing that kicks in but for AI effect thing that kicks in but for AI effect thing that kicks in but for AI where where where you know because I think a lot of people you know because I think a lot of people you know because I think a lot of people would agree chatt2 to three [ __ ] hell would agree chatt2 to three [ __ ] hell would agree chatt2 to three [ __ ] hell to four 40 I know is this there's a to four 40 I know is this there's a to four 40 I know is this there's a whole fur on the internet about people whole fur on the internet about people whole fur on the internet about people that have got girlfriends or boyfriends that have got girlfriends or boyfriends that have got girlfriends or boyfriends that are virtual on 40 and they're all that are virtual on 40 and they're all that are virtual on 40 and they're all getting upset and sad about it uh and I getting upset and sad about it uh and I getting upset and sad about it uh and I don't understand I don't think I use the don't understand I don't think I use the don't understand I don't think I use the tools sufficiently deeply to be able to tools sufficiently deeply to be able to tools sufficiently deeply to be able to test this and benchmark market. It's test this and benchmark market. It's test this and benchmark market. It's like my Fire TV Sticks remote isn't like my Fire TV Sticks remote isn't like my Fire TV Sticks remote isn't working well. Um like it was able to do working well. Um like it was able to do working well. Um like it was able to do that [ __ ] 5 years ago. Um but is your that [ __ ] 5 years ago. Um but is your that [ __ ] 5 years ago. Um but is your your thinking is that we're maybe going your thinking is that we're maybe going your thinking is that we're maybe going to reach asimtote for what LLMs to reach asimtote for what LLMs to reach asimtote for what LLMs generally and transformer technology is generally and transformer technology is generally and transformer technology is able to do and then it's going to be a able to do and then it's going to be a able to do and then it's going to be a new architecture entirely if we're going new architecture entirely if we're going new architecture entirely if we're going to actually get beyond this. to actually get beyond this. to actually get beyond this. >> Yes. Yeah. That's what that article was >> Yes. Yeah. That's what that article was >> Yes. Yeah. That's what that article was about. I think that was a very of the about. I think that was a very of the about. I think that was a very of the articles I've written, I think that was articles I've written, I think that was articles I've written, I think that was a really important one that that came a really important one that that came a really important one that that came out um in August. And the and the story out um in August. And the and the story out um in August. And the and the story it tells and a lot of other people have it tells and a lot of other people have it tells and a lot of other people have told the story as well, you know, around told the story as well, you know, around told the story as well, you know, around that time and since, but the story it that time and since, but the story it that time and since, but the story it tells is basically what happened is tells is basically what happened is tells is basically what happened is there was this big paper that was there was this big paper that was there was this big paper that was published in 2020. The lead researcher published in 2020. The lead researcher published in 2020. The lead researcher Kaplan, Jared Kaplan, I think was at Kaplan, Jared Kaplan, I think was at Kaplan, Jared Kaplan, I think was at Anthropic at the time and it was this Anthropic at the time and it was this Anthropic at the time and it was this paper where they said, "Hey, something paper where they said, "Hey, something paper where they said, "Hey, something weird is happening here. If we make LLMs weird is happening here. If we make LLMs weird is happening here. If we make LLMs bigger and we train them longer, they bigger and we train them longer, they bigger and we train them longer, they perform better." And technically they're perform better." And technically they're perform better." And technically they're saying the loss decreased. That sounds saying the loss decreased. That sounds saying the loss decreased. That sounds kind of obvious but in like machine kind of obvious but in like machine kind of obvious but in like machine learning circles that was surprising learning circles that was surprising learning circles that was surprising because there's this idea of overfitting because there's this idea of overfitting because there's this idea of overfitting where if you just make your model bigger where if you just make your model bigger where if you just make your model bigger um the performance goes down. So it used um the performance goes down. So it used um the performance goes down. So it used to be like you have to find the perfect to be like you have to find the perfect to be like you have to find the perfect size model for your problem space. size model for your problem space. size model for your problem space. That's the way people thought about That's the way people thought about That's the way people thought about machine learning until this paper came machine learning until this paper came machine learning until this paper came out like I don't know transformbased out like I don't know transformbased out like I don't know transformbased LLMs uh they were using GPT2 and they LLMs uh they were using GPT2 and they LLMs uh they were using GPT2 and they were systematically making it bigger and were systematically making it bigger and were systematically making it bigger and they were seeing that the performance they were seeing that the performance they were seeing that the performance just kept going up. like this is just kept going up. like this is just kept going up. like this is interesting so let's try it and that was interesting so let's try it and that was interesting so let's try it and that was GPT3 all right let's actually make this GPT3 all right let's actually make this GPT3 all right let's actually make this like 10x bigger surely this can't be like 10x bigger surely this can't be like 10x bigger surely this can't be right and it was it matched the Kaplan right and it was it matched the Kaplan right and it was it matched the Kaplan curve exactly like oh my god this curve exactly like oh my god this curve exactly like oh my god this actually got way better just by making actually got way better just by making actually got way better just by making this bigger like all right well this bigger like all right well this bigger like all right well certainly that must be the end of it certainly that must be the end of it certainly that must be the end of it let's try it with GPT4 they made it let's try it with GPT4 they made it let's try it with GPT4 they made it bigger they trained it much longer bigger they trained it much longer bigger they trained it much longer months and months they trained it you months and months they trained it you months and months they trained it you know Microsoft had to build these custom know Microsoft had to build these custom know Microsoft had to build these custom data centers to train it with new AC data centers to train it with new AC data centers to train it with new AC technology didn't exist before and it technology didn't exist before and it technology didn't exist before and it fit the curve it was like way better. fit the curve it was like way better. fit the curve it was like way better. And the thing GPT4 did that really got And the thing GPT4 did that really got And the thing GPT4 did that really got so GPT4 set off the whole industry. The so GPT4 set off the whole industry. The so GPT4 set off the whole industry. The thing it did is it started showing thing it did is it started showing thing it did is it started showing abilities beyond just language. And abilities beyond just language. And abilities beyond just language. And that's where people got excited like, oh that's where people got excited like, oh that's where people got excited like, oh wow, if you train a language model on wow, if you train a language model on wow, if you train a language model on enough language, enough language, enough language, it learns about things that isn't just it learns about things that isn't just it learns about things that isn't just producing language. It can play games. producing language. It can play games. producing language. It can play games. It can do math problems. It can do It can do math problems. It can do It can do math problems. It can do logic. I mean, this was super exciting. logic. I mean, this was super exciting. logic. I mean, this was super exciting. It was super exciting. So the assumption It was super exciting. So the assumption It was super exciting. So the assumption was do this two or three more times you was do this two or three more times you was do this two or three more times you have AGI. So that's what the whole have AGI. So that's what the whole have AGI. So that's what the whole industry was based off of when we went industry was based off of when we went industry was based off of when we went from three to four was this is from three to four was this is from three to four was this is legitimate justified excitement. legitimate justified excitement. legitimate justified excitement. >> Expand the size and the training >> Expand the size and the training >> Expand the size and the training duration two or three more times and the duration two or three more times and the duration two or three more times and the economy is going to happen in a box. I economy is going to happen in a box. I economy is going to happen in a box. I mean it was so that's where all of that mean it was so that's where all of that mean it was so that's where all of that was the the engine for all this was the the engine for all this was the the engine for all this excitement. So they tried uh at OpenAI excitement. So they tried uh at OpenAI excitement. So they tried uh at OpenAI was called Project Orion. They made it was called Project Orion. They made it was called Project Orion. They made it bigger modeled than four. They trained bigger modeled than four. They trained bigger modeled than four. They trained it even longer. Like here we go. And it even longer. Like here we go. And it even longer. Like here we go. And they tried it and they said it's not they tried it and they said it's not they tried it and they said it's not much better. And this was this big uh much better. And this was this big uh much better. And this was this big uh brick wall surprise for the industry. brick wall surprise for the industry. brick wall surprise for the industry. Like wait, it didn't get better. Um Like wait, it didn't get better. Um Like wait, it didn't get better. Um everyone else tried as well, right? everyone else tried as well, right? everyone else tried as well, right? Grock, they tried this with Grock as Grock, they tried this with Grock as Grock, they tried this with Grock as well with the Colossus data center. Like well with the Colossus data center. Like well with the Colossus data center. Like we're going to have 200,000 we're going to have 200,000 we're going to have 200,000 GPU data center. No one's ever built GPU data center. No one's ever built GPU data center. No one's ever built anything this big. And it was like a anything this big. And it was like a anything this big. And it was like a little bit better. Meta tried this. They little bit better. Meta tried this. They little bit better. Meta tried this. They had a model called Bmoth like we built had a model called Bmoth like we built had a model called Bmoth like we built the biggest data is bigger than anyone the biggest data is bigger than anyone the biggest data is bigger than anyone we've had before and they didn't release we've had before and they didn't release we've had before and they didn't release it because it was marginally better than it because it was marginally better than it because it was marginally better than the last model that they had. And so the last model that they had. And so the last model that they had. And so this was a huge issue, right? You this was a huge issue, right? You this was a huge issue, right? You couldn't just make the models bigger and couldn't just make the models bigger and couldn't just make the models bigger and train them bigger. So what they did was train them bigger. So what they did was train them bigger. So what they did was they switched to what are other ways we they switched to what are other ways we they switched to what are other ways we can get uh performance increases and can can get uh performance increases and can can get uh performance increases and can we get more narrow by what we mean with we get more narrow by what we mean with we get more narrow by what we mean with performance and this is when we began to performance and this is when we began to performance and this is when we began to get all the alphabet suit models. Well, get all the alphabet suit models. Well, get all the alphabet suit models. Well, it's GPTO 03- mini whatever. Uh, and it's GPTO 03- mini whatever. Uh, and it's GPTO 03- mini whatever. Uh, and they switched the focus from just this they switched the focus from just this they switched the focus from just this is amazing if you use it to we have is amazing if you use it to we have is amazing if you use it to we have these benchmark graphs and look at these these benchmark graphs and look at these these benchmark graphs and look at these graphs. Things are going better on these graphs. Things are going better on these graphs. Things are going better on these benchmarks. It all became about benchmarks. It all became about benchmarks. It all became about benchmarks because these are very narrow benchmarks because these are very narrow benchmarks because these are very narrow things that you could train models to do things that you could train models to do things that you could train models to do well on. They weren't intuitive. GPD4 well on. They weren't intuitive. GPD4 well on. They weren't intuitive. GPD4 was just awesome. By the time we got to was just awesome. By the time we got to was just awesome. By the time we got to GPD5, their whole launch, their launch GPD5, their whole launch, their launch GPD5, their whole launch, their launch page had 28 graphs of uh benchmark names page had 28 graphs of uh benchmark names page had 28 graphs of uh benchmark names that no one knew what they were. And so that no one knew what they were. And so that no one knew what they were. And so then they had to look for all these then they had to look for all these then they had to look for all these other ways to get improvement. And other ways to get improvement. And other ways to get improvement. And that's where you got like inference time that's where you got like inference time that's where you got like inference time compute. Well, what if we we compute compute. Well, what if we we compute compute. Well, what if we we compute longer for harder questions? And they longer for harder questions? And they longer for harder questions? And they began really pushing fine-tuning. Well, began really pushing fine-tuning. Well, began really pushing fine-tuning. Well, for specific types of problems, we can for specific types of problems, we can for specific types of problems, we can get data sets that have answers and uh get data sets that have answers and uh get data sets that have answers and uh questions and answers. And we can use questions and answers. And we can use questions and answers. And we can use reinforcement learning that try to take reinforcement learning that try to take reinforcement learning that try to take this pre-trained model and make it this pre-trained model and make it this pre-trained model and make it better at this particular type of better at this particular type of better at this particular type of problem. And then we can have a problem. And then we can have a problem. And then we can have a benchmark that shows us we got better at benchmark that shows us we got better at benchmark that shows us we got better at this problem. And my argument in that this problem. And my argument in that this problem. And my argument in that article is like this is a way different article is like this is a way different article is like this is a way different game than we were playing when we went game than we were playing when we went game than we were playing when we went from two to three and three to four. from two to three and three to four. from two to three and three to four. We're no longer scaling to AGI. We're We're no longer scaling to AGI. We're We're no longer scaling to AGI. We're taking basically GPT4 and we're doing taking basically GPT4 and we're doing taking basically GPT4 and we're doing all of this like tuning and adding extra all of this like tuning and adding extra all of this like tuning and adding extra stuff on top of it and around it and and stuff on top of it and around it and and stuff on top of it and around it and and measuring these very narrow benchmarks. measuring these very narrow benchmarks. measuring these very narrow benchmarks. And that's why people have this feeling And that's why people have this feeling And that's why people have this feeling ever since like I I guess they're ever since like I I guess they're ever since like I I guess they're better, but it's not in an obvious way. better, but it's not in an obvious way. better, but it's not in an obvious way. It's better in specific tasks or if I It's better in specific tasks or if I It's better in specific tasks or if I vibe code this it looks better I guess vibe code this it looks better I guess vibe code this it looks better I guess and it seems more narrow. Um, and so and it seems more narrow. Um, and so and it seems more narrow. Um, and so yeah, we're we're reaching an this yeah, we're we're reaching an this yeah, we're we're reaching an this there's a long answer to a short there's a long answer to a short there's a long answer to a short question, but we are reaching an asmtope question, but we are reaching an asmtope question, but we are reaching an asmtope on um just pure fine-tuned LLMs as an on um just pure fine-tuned LLMs as an on um just pure fine-tuned LLMs as an engine for AI. We're going to need more engine for AI. We're going to need more engine for AI. We're going to need more architectures. It's going to take more architectures. It's going to take more architectures. It's going to take more time. time. time. >> Well, presumably Chad GPT6 could come >> Well, presumably Chad GPT6 could come >> Well, presumably Chad GPT6 could come out and oh [ __ ] they just blew through out and oh [ __ ] they just blew through out and oh [ __ ] they just blew through the entirety of my prediction. This the entirety of my prediction. This the entirety of my prediction. This curve no longer curves flat in the way curve no longer curves flat in the way curve no longer curves flat in the way that I thought. And [ __ ] this is this that I thought. And [ __ ] this is this that I thought. And [ __ ] this is this is a different universe now. Yeah, but is a different universe now. Yeah, but is a different universe now. Yeah, but that won't happen because they they that won't happen because they they that won't happen because they they tried and it they don't know how to do tried and it they don't know how to do tried and it they don't know how to do that. So, it's not going to be just an that. So, it's not going to be just an that. So, it's not going to be just an LLM. Uh I mean my my prediction of the LLM. Uh I mean my my prediction of the LLM. Uh I mean my my prediction of the future of AI is I think what we're going future of AI is I think what we're going future of AI is I think what we're going to see I think LLMs are very powerful, to see I think LLMs are very powerful, to see I think LLMs are very powerful, but what we're going to see is much more but what we're going to see is much more but what we're going to see is much more of hybrid models that are custom custom of hybrid models that are custom custom of hybrid models that are custom custom fit to particular problems where okay, fit to particular problems where okay, fit to particular problems where okay, this system does this thing better than this system does this thing better than this system does this thing better than a human. And in its guts, there's like a a human. And in its guts, there's like a a human. And in its guts, there's like a an LLM in there, not a huge frontier an LLM in there, not a huge frontier an LLM in there, not a huge frontier model, but one that's like souped up and model, but one that's like souped up and model, but one that's like souped up and optimized for this particular type of optimized for this particular type of optimized for this particular type of thing. But there's also like five or six thing. But there's also like five or six thing. But there's also like five or six other models and go there's an explicit other models and go there's an explicit other models and go there's an explicit world model. There's a future predictor. world model. There's a future predictor. world model. There's a future predictor. There's a policy network trained through There's a policy network trained through There's a policy network trained through reinforcement learning to try to reinforcement learning to try to reinforcement learning to try to evaluate situations to see what's good evaluate situations to see what's good evaluate situations to see what's good or bad. There's a whole logic engine on or bad. There's a whole logic engine on or bad. There's a whole logic engine on top of this that hooks these together. top of this that hooks these together. top of this that hooks these together. These are what I think the the AI These are what I think the the AI These are what I think the the AI systems of the future going to be like. systems of the future going to be like. systems of the future going to be like. They're going to be bespoke and there's They're going to be bespoke and there's They're going to be bespoke and there's gonna be a ton of them. So when we get gonna be a ton of them. So when we get gonna be a ton of them. So when we get to AGI, it's not going to be GPT7 can do to AGI, it's not going to be GPT7 can do to AGI, it's not going to be GPT7 can do everything you ask it as well as a everything you ask it as well as a everything you ask it as well as a human. It's going to be a world in which human. It's going to be a world in which human. It's going to be a world in which there's 10,000 different AI products. there's 10,000 different AI products. there's 10,000 different AI products. And you realize everything I can think And you realize everything I can think And you realize everything I can think of now, there's some product out there of now, there's some product out there of now, there's some product out there somewhere that can do this better than somewhere that can do this better than somewhere that can do this better than humans. Just like there's AI that can humans. Just like there's AI that can humans. Just like there's AI that can play chess better than humans. There's a play chess better than humans. There's a play chess better than humans. There's a different AI that can play go better different AI that can play go better different AI that can play go better than humans. There's an AI now that can than humans. There's an AI now that can than humans. There's an AI now that can beat uh professional poker players at beat uh professional poker players at beat uh professional poker players at Texas Hold of No Limit. They're all Texas Hold of No Limit. They're all Texas Hold of No Limit. They're all different systems with their own pieces different systems with their own pieces different systems with their own pieces in them. And a lot of them have some in them. And a lot of them have some in them. And a lot of them have some language models in them as well, but a language models in them as well, but a language models in them as well, but a lot of other pieces as well. It's lot of other pieces as well. It's lot of other pieces as well. It's distributed AGI. That's what it's going distributed AGI. That's what it's going distributed AGI. That's what it's going to be like. We're just going to wake up to be like. We're just going to wake up to be like. We're just going to wake up one day and say there's fewer and fewer one day and say there's fewer and fewer one day and say there's fewer and fewer things where we say humans can do this things where we say humans can do this things where we say humans can do this better than computers. And it's a better than computers. And it's a better than computers. And it's a different model than PAL 9000. There's different model than PAL 9000. There's different model than PAL 9000. There's one giant. It's a really inefficient way one giant. It's a really inefficient way one giant. It's a really inefficient way to imagine solving this problem. If we to imagine solving this problem. If we to imagine solving this problem. If we just have a big enough language model, just have a big enough language model, just have a big enough language model, it's going to do all activity. It's it's going to do all activity. It's it's going to do all activity. It's going to power all agents. It's going to going to power all agents. It's going to going to power all agents. It's going to automate all systems. that really automate all systems. that really automate all systems. that really doesn't make sense. I think it's going doesn't make sense. I think it's going doesn't make sense. I think it's going to be a much more distributed path to be a much more distributed path to be a much more distributed path towards AGI and AI >> given >> given what AI can and can't do and what the what AI can and can't do and what the what AI can and can't do and what the quality of work is that it puts out at quality of work is that it puts out at quality of work is that it puts out at the moment. What is some good advice for the moment. What is some good advice for the moment. What is some good advice for somebody who wants to somebody who wants to somebody who wants to work against the weaknesses that are work against the weaknesses that are work against the weaknesses that are going to be exposed in other people going to be exposed in other people going to be exposed in other people because of their reliance on AI by because of their reliance on AI by because of their reliance on AI by avoiding it themselves or by using it avoiding it themselves or by using it avoiding it themselves or by using it appropriately. What would you focus on? appropriately. What would you focus on? appropriately. What would you focus on? Because again, it seems to me like Because again, it seems to me like Because again, it seems to me like >> quantity is easier to achieve than ever >> quantity is easier to achieve than ever >> quantity is easier to achieve than ever before. Quality is going to be rarer. before. Quality is going to be rarer. before. Quality is going to be rarer. That inertia, getting the project off That inertia, getting the project off That inertia, getting the project off the launchpad, the blinking cursor of the launchpad, the blinking cursor of the launchpad, the blinking cursor of the blank page. the blank page. the blank page. >> Yeah. where where should people focus >> Yeah. where where should people focus >> Yeah. where where should people focus their time and their attention in order their time and their attention in order their time and their attention in order to capitalize this? to capitalize this? to capitalize this? >> I think you need to begin thinking about >> I think you need to begin thinking about >> I think you need to begin thinking about the feeling of cognitive strain the way the feeling of cognitive strain the way the feeling of cognitive strain the way that you know a weightlifter thinks that you know a weightlifter thinks that you know a weightlifter thinks about the burn of a muscle or a runner about the burn of a muscle or a runner about the burn of a muscle or a runner thinks about burning lungs as a thing thinks about burning lungs as a thing thinks about burning lungs as a thing that is uncomfortable in the moment but that is uncomfortable in the moment but that is uncomfortable in the moment but man I'm excited about this feeling man I'm excited about this feeling man I'm excited about this feeling because it's I'm getting stronger. because it's I'm getting stronger. because it's I'm getting stronger. You got to make yourself really You got to make yourself really You got to make yourself really comfortable thinking hard. That is the comfortable thinking hard. That is the comfortable thinking hard. That is the differentiating factor. I mean obviously differentiating factor. I mean obviously differentiating factor. I mean obviously I've been saying this since well 10 I've been saying this since well 10 I've been saying this since well 10 years now but that's that's even more years now but that's that's even more years now but that's that's even more now going to be the differentiating now going to be the differentiating now going to be the differentiating factor right and if you talk to athletes factor right and if you talk to athletes factor right and if you talk to athletes they're like this is like Schwarzenegger they're like this is like Schwarzenegger they're like this is like Schwarzenegger and pumping iron talking about pump and and pumping iron talking about pump and and pumping iron talking about pump and that's really painful what he's doing that's really painful what he's doing that's really painful what he's doing actually right like lifting the the the actually right like lifting the the the actually right like lifting the the the level of weights the the physical pain level of weights the the physical pain level of weights the the physical pain he's in is high and he compares it to an he's in is high and he compares it to an he's in is high and he compares it to an orgasm right because if you're a orgasm right because if you're a orgasm right because if you're a weightlifter you're like oh that pain is weightlifter you're like oh that pain is weightlifter you're like oh that pain is directly translating to more strength directly translating to more strength directly translating to more strength and more more muscle mass you got to and more more muscle mass you got to and more more muscle mass you got to think that same way about your brain you think that same way about your brain you think that same way about your brain you cannot flee cognitive strain cannot flee cognitive strain cannot flee cognitive strain You have to think about it in a You have to think about it in a You have to think about it in a knowledge work cognitive age. That is knowledge work cognitive age. That is knowledge work cognitive age. That is the feeling of my brain getting more the feeling of my brain getting more the feeling of my brain getting more capable. Yeah, I want to seek that out. capable. Yeah, I want to seek that out. capable. Yeah, I want to seek that out. Let's go get it. Let's go get some. Let's go get it. Let's go get some. Let's go get it. Let's go get some. Right? Like I want to this I'm nope. Right? Like I want to this I'm nope. Right? Like I want to this I'm nope. Bring my focus back to this thing. I'm Bring my focus back to this thing. I'm Bring my focus back to this thing. I'm going to try to push this through and going to try to push this through and going to try to push this through and then when you're done be like, "Oh man, then when you're done be like, "Oh man, then when you're done be like, "Oh man, I exhausted my brain." That's awesome. I exhausted my brain." That's awesome. I exhausted my brain." That's awesome. That was like a that was like a really That was like a that was like a really That was like a that was like a really good cognitive workout. M good cognitive workout. M good cognitive workout. M >> so don't while everyone else is using AI >> so don't while everyone else is using AI >> so don't while everyone else is using AI to run away from strain you should be to run away from strain you should be to run away from strain you should be the person running for it because the person running for it because the person running for it because especially in the American context I especially in the American context I especially in the American context I mean the knowledge economy is now a mean the knowledge economy is now a mean the knowledge economy is now a massive portion of our GDP and the massive portion of our GDP and the massive portion of our GDP and the knowledge economy itself is shifting knowledge economy itself is shifting knowledge economy itself is shifting more towards uh cognition intensive work more towards uh cognition intensive work more towards uh cognition intensive work so you know knowledge work can capture so you know knowledge work can capture so you know knowledge work can capture anything where you're not building anything where you're not building anything where you're not building things but now all the lower level things but now all the lower level things but now all the lower level knowledge work is being outsourced or knowledge work is being outsourced or knowledge work is being outsourced or automated a lot of it has been replaced automated a lot of it has been replaced automated a lot of it has been replaced over the last 30 years by software we over the last 30 years by software we over the last 30 years by software we don't have support staff and assistants don't have support staff and assistants don't have support staff and assistants and secretaries like we used to because and secretaries like we used to because and secretaries like we used to because well you can use Microsoft Word and well you can use Microsoft Word and well you can use Microsoft Word and email we don't need separated people and email we don't need separated people and email we don't need separated people and so the the work that's left in our so the the work that's left in our so the the work that's left in our economy the knowledge economy has been economy the knowledge economy has been economy the knowledge economy has been getting more and more cognitively getting more and more cognitively getting more and more cognitively demanding demanding demanding and so the number one skill is I'm used and so the number one skill is I'm used and so the number one skill is I'm used to straining my brain learning hard new to straining my brain learning hard new to straining my brain learning hard new things and maintaining focus that's what things and maintaining focus that's what things and maintaining focus that's what I would train I would train I would train that's so good I I I really really agree that's so good I I I really really agree that's so good I I I really really agree and it's so the funny thing is that's and it's so the funny thing is that's and it's so the funny thing is that's why I asked at the top if you just felt why I asked at the top if you just felt why I asked at the top if you just felt like [ __ ] Cassandra because each like [ __ ] Cassandra because each like [ __ ] Cassandra because each subsequent subsequent subsequent development in technology makes this development in technology makes this development in technology makes this more important. Uh more important. Uh more important. Uh >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> I do there's always going to be that >> I do there's always going to be that >> I do there's always going to be that seductive seductive seductive whisper in the back of someone's mind whisper in the back of someone's mind whisper in the back of someone's mind that well yeah but I can work faster that well yeah but I can work faster that well yeah but I can work faster with AI. I can work quicker by with AI. I can work quicker by with AI. I can work quicker by what if my boss sees me doing executive what if my boss sees me doing executive what if my boss sees me doing executive functioning through Slack more whatever. functioning through Slack more whatever. functioning through Slack more whatever. What is the what's the elevator pitch What is the what's the elevator pitch What is the what's the elevator pitch for you should do for you should do for you should do work of high quality and that will end work of high quality and that will end work of high quality and that will end up winning? You you have to think about up winning? You you have to think about up winning? You you have to think about employment. Ultimately, it's a employment. Ultimately, it's a employment. Ultimately, it's a marketplace. There's a lot of marketplace. There's a lot of marketplace. There's a lot of offuscation and fog and smoke, but it's offuscation and fog and smoke, but it's offuscation and fog and smoke, but it's ultimately a marketplace, right? Uh ultimately a marketplace, right? Uh ultimately a marketplace, right? Uh you're paid money. In exchange, you you're paid money. In exchange, you you're paid money. In exchange, you produce things that have economic value. produce things that have economic value. produce things that have economic value. That's what makes that exchange make That's what makes that exchange make That's what makes that exchange make sense. There is not ultimately an sense. There is not ultimately an sense. There is not ultimately an underlying economic value. underlying economic value. underlying economic value. to the coordination activities by to the coordination activities by to the coordination activities by themselves. There is no actual economic themselves. There is no actual economic themselves. There is no actual economic value to the speed of your Slack value to the speed of your Slack value to the speed of your Slack responses or the number of meetings you responses or the number of meetings you responses or the number of meetings you go into or the number of like go into or the number of like go into or the number of like bulletointed emails with those sort of bulletointed emails with those sort of bulletointed emails with those sort of chat GPT emojis that you put out. That chat GPT emojis that you put out. That chat GPT emojis that you put out. That itself doesn't generate economic value. itself doesn't generate economic value. itself doesn't generate economic value. The stuff that does a knowledge work The stuff that does a knowledge work The stuff that does a knowledge work almost always requires you mastering almost always requires you mastering almost always requires you mastering hard skills and applying them through hard skills and applying them through hard skills and applying them through concentration. And ultimately that concentration. And ultimately that concentration. And ultimately that shakes out there. there's only so far shakes out there. there's only so far shakes out there. there's only so far you can get or so far you can hide being you can get or so far you can hide being you can get or so far you can hide being busy because busyiness can't be busy because busyiness can't be busy because busyiness can't be monetized monetized monetized >> and you know of course you can create a >> and you know of course you can create a >> and you know of course you can create a smoke for a while like I don't know like smoke for a while like I don't know like smoke for a while like I don't know like you know uh Chris seems like productive you know uh Chris seems like productive you know uh Chris seems like productive I guess like he's always on these emails I guess like he's always on these emails I guess like he's always on these emails and this and this and that but if you're and this and this and that but if you're and this and this and that but if you're not actually producing things that have not actually producing things that have not actually producing things that have economic value like ultimately that economic value like ultimately that economic value like ultimately that catches up to you your opportunities catches up to you your opportunities catches up to you your opportunities narrow you're going to get found out at narrow you're going to get found out at narrow you're going to get found out at some point where if you do the other some point where if you do the other some point where if you do the other thing it's like no I'm creating stuff thing it's like no I'm creating stuff thing it's like no I'm creating stuff that is rare and valuable that's that is rare and valuable that's that is rare and valuable that's unambiguously unambiguously unambiguously uh has value in the marketplace. You uh has value in the marketplace. You uh has value in the marketplace. You write your own ticket. Like what you write your own ticket. Like what you write your own ticket. Like what you want to have a a business where you work want to have a a business where you work want to have a a business where you work half the year, you can do it. You want half the year, you can do it. You want half the year, you can do it. You want to get paid a huge amount of money, you to get paid a huge amount of money, you to get paid a huge amount of money, you can do it. You want to like work for a can do it. You want to like work for a can do it. You want to like work for a company, but you all you choose when you company, but you all you choose when you company, but you all you choose when you come into the office and you declare come into the office and you declare come into the office and you declare like I don't want to do meetings. That's like I don't want to do meetings. That's like I don't want to do meetings. That's actually a thing. By the way, I talked actually a thing. By the way, I talked actually a thing. By the way, I talked to a marketing team at one of the major to a marketing team at one of the major to a marketing team at one of the major tech companies not long ago and they tech companies not long ago and they tech companies not long ago and they said, "You know what? um we're in the said, "You know what? um we're in the said, "You know what? um we're in the sales side and like our group the sales sales side and like our group the sales sales side and like our group the sales group we are exempt from meetings group we are exempt from meetings group we are exempt from meetings because they can directly monetize oh because they can directly monetize oh because they can directly monetize oh you brought in this many dollars. We can you brought in this many dollars. We can you brought in this many dollars. We can see it and if you're bringing in dollars see it and if you're bringing in dollars see it and if you're bringing in dollars they're like you can do what you want they're like you can do what you want they're like you can do what you want and they could also see if we make you and they could also see if we make you and they could also see if we make you go to meetings those dollars go down. go to meetings those dollars go down. go to meetings those dollars go down. It's like forget the meetings for you It's like forget the meetings for you It's like forget the meetings for you everyone else where there's not a clear everyone else where there's not a clear everyone else where there's not a clear number where they can see how much value number where they can see how much value number where they can see how much value you're bringing like oh you better be you're bringing like oh you better be you're bringing like oh you better be there in the meetings. I I've dude I've there in the meetings. I I've dude I've there in the meetings. I I've dude I've always thought this the the the big always thought this the the the big always thought this the the the big problem that most people have that problem that most people have that problem that most people have that doesn't exist in the world of sports doesn't exist in the world of sports doesn't exist in the world of sports stars. If you're a sports star, stars. If you're a sports star, stars. If you're a sports star, everything that you're doing is to everything that you're doing is to everything that you're doing is to facilitate performance. And performance facilitate performance. And performance facilitate performance. And performance is very tightly bounded and it's is very tightly bounded and it's is very tightly bounded and it's quantifiable. If you're a weightlifter, quantifiable. If you're a weightlifter, quantifiable. If you're a weightlifter, that 300 kilos is 300 kilos. Yeah. You that 300 kilos is 300 kilos. Yeah. You that 300 kilos is 300 kilos. Yeah. You either pick it up or you don't pick it either pick it up or you don't pick it either pick it up or you don't pick it up. and your sleep and your recovery and up. and your sleep and your recovery and up. and your sleep and your recovery and your nutrition and your hydration and your nutrition and your hydration and your nutrition and your hydration and your game tape and your technique work your game tape and your technique work your game tape and your technique work and your SNC and your body work and and your SNC and your body work and and your SNC and your body work and massage and soft tissue and all of that massage and soft tissue and all of that massage and soft tissue and all of that stuff combine to this output. It's a stuff combine to this output. It's a stuff combine to this output. It's a very very sort of single ordinating very very sort of single ordinating very very sort of single ordinating principle. The same thing goes for principle. The same thing goes for principle. The same thing goes for tennis and the same thing goes for tennis and the same thing goes for tennis and the same thing goes for football and the same thing goes for football and the same thing goes for football and the same thing goes for baseball and so on and so forth. If you baseball and so on and so forth. If you baseball and so on and so forth. If you do not perform well, you begin to do not perform well, you begin to do not perform well, you begin to scrutinize all of the contributing scrutinize all of the contributing scrutinize all of the contributing elements that that come toward that. The elements that that come toward that. The elements that that come toward that. The problem that you have in most normal problem that you have in most normal problem that you have in most normal people's lives is the output that people's lives is the output that people's lives is the output that they're optimizing for is diffuse and they're optimizing for is diffuse and they're optimizing for is diffuse and very hard to work out. It's well, I want very hard to work out. It's well, I want very hard to work out. It's well, I want to be a good father, but I also want to to be a good father, but I also want to to be a good father, but I also want to perform at work and you and I I do perform at work and you and I I do perform at work and you and I I do Brazilian jiu-jitsu on an evening time Brazilian jiu-jitsu on an evening time Brazilian jiu-jitsu on an evening time and my wife makes me go dancing and I and my wife makes me go dancing and I and my wife makes me go dancing and I want to be engaging at a cocktail party. want to be engaging at a cocktail party. want to be engaging at a cocktail party. Okay. Well, first off, that's lots of Okay. Well, first off, that's lots of Okay. Well, first off, that's lots of things. It's not a single ordinating things. It's not a single ordinating things. It's not a single ordinating principle. And secondly, define to me principle. And secondly, define to me principle. And secondly, define to me the lineage between your disrupted sleep the lineage between your disrupted sleep the lineage between your disrupted sleep last night and your poorer performance last night and your poorer performance last night and your poorer performance around the dinner table or in Brazilian around the dinner table or in Brazilian around the dinner table or in Brazilian jiu-jitsu or whatever. The diffuse thing jiu-jitsu or whatever. The diffuse thing jiu-jitsu or whatever. The diffuse thing contributes because you inevitably have contributes because you inevitably have contributes because you inevitably have to make trade-offs from one thing in to make trade-offs from one thing in to make trade-offs from one thing in order to do to do another. But also, order to do to do another. But also, order to do to do another. But also, it's just hard. It's hard to work out it's just hard. It's hard to work out it's just hard. It's hard to work out how your performance is performing. And how your performance is performing. And how your performance is performing. And this is the same in the work life. this is the same in the work life. this is the same in the work life. Perfect example, the sales people. We Perfect example, the sales people. We Perfect example, the sales people. We just know if we do make you do this just know if we do make you do this just know if we do make you do this thing, we lose that thing and that thing thing, we lose that thing and that thing thing, we lose that thing and that thing is more important than this thing. It is more important than this thing. It is more important than this thing. It would be like if for some reason sports would be like if for some reason sports would be like if for some reason sports stars were being encouraged to stay up stars were being encouraged to stay up stars were being encouraged to stay up late, you go, well, we know if we make late, you go, well, we know if we make late, you go, well, we know if we make you stay up late answering [ __ ] you stay up late answering [ __ ] you stay up late answering [ __ ] Slacks, your performance in the game the Slacks, your performance in the game the Slacks, your performance in the game the next day decreases. But for most people, next day decreases. But for most people, next day decreases. But for most people, there's this implicit assumption that there's this implicit assumption that there's this implicit assumption that part of what you do is the contribution part of what you do is the contribution part of what you do is the contribution to the strategy and the operations and to the strategy and the operations and to the strategy and the operations and the the executive function culture and the the executive function culture and the the executive function culture and so on, which means that you forget what so on, which means that you forget what so on, which means that you forget what you're there for. I think people have you're there for. I think people have you're there for. I think people have forgotten what they're there for. What forgotten what they're there for. What forgotten what they're there for. What what what am I supposed to be here at what what am I supposed to be here at what what am I supposed to be here at work doing? What is my out my my outcome work doing? What is my out my my outcome work doing? What is my out my my outcome goal? goal? goal? >> There's so much fat in the America >> There's so much fat in the America >> There's so much fat in the America American knowledge work sector right American knowledge work sector right American knowledge work sector right now, right? because it we're so wealthy now, right? because it we're so wealthy now, right? because it we're so wealthy and there's so much money being slung and there's so much money being slung and there's so much money being slung around that we can have whole around that we can have whole around that we can have whole organizations where most people don't organizations where most people don't organizations where most people don't even know how they're directly connected even know how they're directly connected even know how they're directly connected to producing that value and they could to producing that value and they could to producing that value and they could just be doing email all day or whatever, just be doing email all day or whatever, just be doing email all day or whatever, right? It's so inefficient. But there right? It's so inefficient. But there right? It's so inefficient. But there are I mean there are plenty of knowledge are I mean there are plenty of knowledge are I mean there are plenty of knowledge work areas where people don't put up work areas where people don't put up work areas where people don't put up with a bunch of this nonsense and it's with a bunch of this nonsense and it's with a bunch of this nonsense and it's all areas where it's very easy to all areas where it's very easy to all areas where it's very easy to quantify quantify quantify >> your production. I I did this essay a >> your production. I I did this essay a >> your production. I I did this essay a couple years ago where I did a couple years ago where I did a couple years ago where I did a reflection where I said, "God, almost reflection where I said, "God, almost reflection where I said, "God, almost every thought I've had in my books all every thought I've had in my books all every thought I've had in my books all came out of my experience as a grad came out of my experience as a grad came out of my experience as a grad student at MIT." So, I was at the the student at MIT." So, I was at the the student at MIT." So, I was at the the theory of computation group in the theory of computation group in the theory of computation group in the computer science department at at MIT. computer science department at at MIT. computer science department at at MIT. Don't call it a department, but the Don't call it a department, but the Don't call it a department, but the theory of computation group in the CI CS theory of computation group in the CI CS theory of computation group in the CI CS lab at MIT, which is like a group the lab at MIT, which is like a group the lab at MIT, which is like a group the professors there, the students, we professors there, the students, we professors there, the students, we weren't like this, but the professors weren't like this, but the professors weren't like this, but the professors were super geniuses. like literally were super geniuses. like literally were super geniuses. like literally touring award, touring award, MacArthur, touring award, touring award, MacArthur, touring award, touring award, MacArthur, MacArthur Turing Award, Dyster Prize, MacArthur Turing Award, Dyster Prize, MacArthur Turing Award, Dyster Prize, like smartest people in the world and it like smartest people in the world and it like smartest people in the world and it was incredibly clear if you were was incredibly clear if you were was incredibly clear if you were successful or not. What major theorems successful or not. What major theorems successful or not. What major theorems did you prove in the last few years? did you prove in the last few years? did you prove in the last few years? That's it. That's all that mattered, That's it. That's all that mattered, That's it. That's all that mattered, right? And that required a lot of right? And that required a lot of right? And that required a lot of thinking. So, they were terrible with thinking. So, they were terrible with thinking. So, they were terrible with email. They had no interest in social email. They had no interest in social email. They had no interest in social media. Uh meetings, like if you're media. Uh meetings, like if you're media. Uh meetings, like if you're trying to throw meetings at them, they trying to throw meetings at them, they trying to throw meetings at them, they would just ignore you, right? I I wrote would just ignore you, right? I I wrote would just ignore you, right? I I wrote about this in deep work even and and about this in deep work even and and about this in deep work even and and people push back. I was like, "This is people push back. I was like, "This is people push back. I was like, "This is what it's like in that world." If you what it's like in that world." If you what it's like in that world." If you send someone an email in this world, send someone an email in this world, send someone an email in this world, like one of these professors, and like one of these professors, and like one of these professors, and they're like, "Uh, this isn't this is they're like, "Uh, this isn't this is they're like, "Uh, this isn't this is ambiguous. You kind of didn't word this ambiguous. You kind of didn't word this ambiguous. You kind of didn't word this well or I don't really want to do this." well or I don't really want to do this." well or I don't really want to do this." They just ignore it. Like, that's on They just ignore it. Like, that's on They just ignore it. Like, that's on you, buddy. Like, I have to get, you you, buddy. Like, I have to get, you you, buddy. Like, I have to get, you know, I'm being I will lose my job if know, I'm being I will lose my job if know, I'm being I will lose my job if I'm pre-tenure if I don't come up and I'm pre-tenure if I don't come up and I'm pre-tenure if I don't come up and solve theorems. And they put up with no solve theorems. And they put up with no solve theorems. And they put up with no nonsense. And a lot of that actually nonsense. And a lot of that actually nonsense. And a lot of that actually infused the my the book Deep Work infused the my the book Deep Work infused the my the book Deep Work because like, you know what? I came of because like, you know what? I came of because like, you know what? I came of age in an environment where all anyone age in an environment where all anyone age in an environment where all anyone cared about was focus and everything cared about was focus and everything cared about was focus and everything else was secondaries. Like athletes, else was secondaries. Like athletes, else was secondaries. Like athletes, just like you said, if this is getting just like you said, if this is getting just like you said, if this is getting in the way of my launch angle going down in the way of my launch angle going down in the way of my launch angle going down or my batting average adjusting, I'm or my batting average adjusting, I'm or my batting average adjusting, I'm going to I'm going to change it. But going to I'm going to change it. But going to I'm going to change it. But it's crazy right now in knowledge work it's crazy right now in knowledge work it's crazy right now in knowledge work how many positions that's not true. But how many positions that's not true. But how many positions that's not true. But what I advise people then get in a what I advise people then get in a what I advise people then get in a position where that's true. position where that's true. position where that's true. >> Change your your profile at work or if >> Change your your profile at work or if >> Change your your profile at work or if you're changing your job, change your you're changing your job, change your you're changing your job, change your job into one where your value production job into one where your value production job into one where your value production is unambiguous. Now, this is a is unambiguous. Now, this is a is unambiguous. Now, this is a double-edged sword is it swings both double-edged sword is it swings both double-edged sword is it swings both ways. ways. ways. >> Can't hide anymore. >> Can't hide anymore. >> Can't hide anymore. >> You can't hide anymore. But if you get >> You can't hide anymore. But if you get >> You can't hide anymore. But if you get into one of those situations and then into one of those situations and then into one of those situations and then you do the cognitive work, I know how to you do the cognitive work, I know how to you do the cognitive work, I know how to focus. I build the skills. I apply the focus. I build the skills. I apply the focus. I build the skills. I apply the skills. I'm not afraid of cognitive skills. I'm not afraid of cognitive skills. I'm not afraid of cognitive strain. You're in the absolute best strain. You're in the absolute best strain. You're in the absolute best position in our economy, right? You can position in our economy, right? You can position in our economy, right? You can write your own ticket, but you have to write your own ticket, but you have to write your own ticket, but you have to be willing to go into a a circumstance be willing to go into a a circumstance be willing to go into a a circumstance of like this is the only world I know. of like this is the only world I know. of like this is the only world I know. And academia is what did you publish? And academia is what did you publish? And academia is what did you publish? That's all that matters. That's all we That's all that matters. That's all we That's all that matters. That's all we care about. What did you publish? bookw care about. What did you publish? bookw care about. What did you publish? bookw writing. How many copies did your last writing. How many copies did your last writing. How many copies did your last book sell? That's all that matters. book sell? That's all that matters. book sell? That's all that matters. There's no, you know what, though? He There's no, you know what, though? He There's no, you know what, though? He answered our publisher email so quickly, answered our publisher email so quickly, answered our publisher email so quickly, so let's give him another deal, folks. so let's give him another deal, folks. so let's give him another deal, folks. No, it's exactly how many dollars did No, it's exactly how many dollars did No, it's exactly how many dollars did you make us last time? That's what we you make us last time? That's what we you make us last time? That's what we care about, you know, for the next time. care about, you know, for the next time. care about, you know, for the next time. So, it's a scary world where you're So, it's a scary world where you're So, it's a scary world where you're being held accountable, but it's an being held accountable, but it's an being held accountable, but it's an equation I always say is that if you're equation I always say is that if you're equation I always say is that if you're accountable, you don't have to be accountable, you don't have to be accountable, you don't have to be accessible. accessible. accessible. If you're like, I can point to this is If you're like, I can point to this is If you're like, I can point to this is the value I produced and I'm killing it the value I produced and I'm killing it the value I produced and I'm killing it for you. Then I don't answer emails, I for you. Then I don't answer emails, I for you. Then I don't answer emails, I don't go to these meetings, I don't do don't go to these meetings, I don't do don't go to these meetings, I don't do 50 sort of things. You can get away with 50 sort of things. You can get away with 50 sort of things. You can get away with almost anything you want. So I think almost anything you want. So I think almost anything you want. So I think that's more people should make that that's more people should make that that's more people should make that move, especially in the AI age. I move, especially in the AI age. I move, especially in the AI age. I suppose more people should make that suppose more people should make that suppose more people should make that move towards like, hey, hold me move towards like, hey, hold me move towards like, hey, hold me accountable and then do the work to accountable and then do the work to accountable and then do the work to actually show up. It makes your life. So actually show up. It makes your life. So actually show up. It makes your life. So it's such a better way to go through it's such a better way to go through it's such a better way to go through knowledge work. to get away from that knowledge work. to get away from that knowledge work. to get away from that hyperactive hive mind brainmelting, hyperactive hive mind brainmelting, hyperactive hive mind brainmelting, distracting, soulcrushing, slack all day distracting, soulcrushing, slack all day distracting, soulcrushing, slack all day long nonsense. In other news, you've long nonsense. In other news, you've long nonsense. In other news, you've probably heard me talk about Element probably heard me talk about Element probably heard me talk about Element before, and that's because I am frankly before, and that's because I am frankly before, and that's because I am frankly dependent on it. Uh, and it's how I've dependent on it. Uh, and it's how I've dependent on it. 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Right now, you can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors pack of Element's most popular flavors pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the with your first purchase by going to the with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below, heading link in the description below, heading link in the description below, heading to drinklnt.com/modernwisdom. to drinklnt.com/modernwisdom. to drinklnt.com/modernwisdom. That's drinklnt.com/modern wisdom. Let's say that you were in an wisdom. Let's say that you were in an organization that was small enough that organization that was small enough that organization that was small enough that you could actually enact some change. you could actually enact some change. you could actually enact some change. Maybe you're at the top of it, near the Maybe you're at the top of it, near the Maybe you're at the top of it, near the top of it, or you're just you're toward top of it, or you're just you're toward top of it, or you're just you're toward the bottom of it, but you feel like the bottom of it, but you feel like the bottom of it, but you feel like you've got the ear of the person that's you've got the ear of the person that's you've got the ear of the person that's in charge. If you were to say, you've in charge. If you were to say, you've in charge. If you were to say, you've got the classic got the classic got the classic diffuse hive mind pseudo productivity diffuse hive mind pseudo productivity diffuse hive mind pseudo productivity malaise, like the the the ambient soup malaise, like the the the ambient soup malaise, like the the the ambient soup that everybody's swimming in. How would that everybody's swimming in. How would that everybody's swimming in. How would you you you what would you do? What would you how what would you do? What would you how what would you do? What would you how would you rework the internals of an would you rework the internals of an would you rework the internals of an organization that still needs to organization that still needs to organization that still needs to communicate? Obviously, there has to be communicate? Obviously, there has to be communicate? Obviously, there has to be coordination. people aren't working in coordination. people aren't working in coordination. people aren't working in silos. There is going to be inevitable silos. There is going to be inevitable silos. There is going to be inevitable communication and coordination that communication and coordination that communication and coordination that needs to happen. How how do you needs to happen. How how do you needs to happen. How how do you survive the modern world? What what survive the modern world? What what survive the modern world? What what would you propose? How would you would you propose? How would you would you propose? How would you restructure things? restructure things? restructure things? >> Yeah, I mean I would do a few things. >> Yeah, I mean I would do a few things. >> Yeah, I mean I would do a few things. One, I would say we're going to have One, I would say we're going to have One, I would say we're going to have explicit workload tracking and explicit workload tracking and explicit workload tracking and management, right? No more just people management, right? No more just people management, right? No more just people throw stuff at you and you implicitly throw stuff at you and you implicitly throw stuff at you and you implicitly just add it to your plate. We want a just add it to your plate. We want a just add it to your plate. We want a place where we write down what place where we write down what place where we write down what everyone's working on and we can see it. everyone's working on and we can see it. everyone's working on and we can see it. And now we can start talking about And now we can start talking about And now we can start talking about things like what is an ideal WIP? What's things like what is an ideal WIP? What's things like what is an ideal WIP? What's an ideal work in progress limit for an an ideal work in progress limit for an an ideal work in progress limit for an individual? How many things do we want individual? How many things do we want individual? How many things do we want someone working on at the same time someone working on at the same time someone working on at the same time before that curve uh starts to go the before that curve uh starts to go the before that curve uh starts to go the other way? So, what you have to do once other way? So, what you have to do once other way? So, what you have to do once you start doing that is saying we need a you start doing that is saying we need a you start doing that is saying we need a place to track things that need to be place to track things that need to be place to track things that need to be done that no one is actively working on done that no one is actively working on done that no one is actively working on right now and we can feel okay about it. right now and we can feel okay about it. right now and we can feel okay about it. So, I would definitely want to set up So, I would definitely want to set up So, I would definitely want to set up where where things enter into our radar where where things enter into our radar where where things enter into our radar of this needs to be done. There's a of this needs to be done. There's a of this needs to be done. There's a place for that to go and to be stored place for that to go and to be stored place for that to go and to be stored where it's where it's where it's >> like it's like an organizational getting >> like it's like an organizational getting >> like it's like an organizational getting things done inbox. things done inbox. things done inbox. >> Yes. And it's not on anyone's plate >> Yes. And it's not on anyone's plate >> Yes. And it's not on anyone's plate because here as soon as you are because here as soon as you are because here as soon as you are responsible for something it generates responsible for something it generates responsible for something it generates email, Slack and meetings. So once it's email, Slack and meetings. So once it's email, Slack and meetings. So once it's on your plate, it begins to spin off on your plate, it begins to spin off on your plate, it begins to spin off administrative overhead and slow administrative overhead and slow administrative overhead and slow productivity. I call it the overhead tax productivity. I call it the overhead tax productivity. I call it the overhead tax that gets spun off as soon as it's on that gets spun off as soon as it's on that gets spun off as soon as it's on your plate. So everything by default your plate. So everything by default your plate. So everything by default goes to a team plate. No one's working goes to a team plate. No one's working goes to a team plate. No one's working on it. Then we keep track of from that on it. Then we keep track of from that on it. Then we keep track of from that plate as we move things to people's plate as we move things to people's plate as we move things to people's individual responsibilities. We have individual responsibilities. We have individual responsibilities. We have like I don't you should do three things like I don't you should do three things like I don't you should do three things at a time. That's it. And when you at a time. That's it. And when you at a time. That's it. And when you finish something, you can pull something finish something, you can pull something finish something, you can pull something else in. So do a small number of things else in. So do a small number of things else in. So do a small number of things fast and well and then keep bringing fast and well and then keep bringing fast and well and then keep bringing things. So I would definitely do that. things. So I would definitely do that. things. So I would definitely do that. Uh the second thing I would do is I Uh the second thing I would do is I Uh the second thing I would do is I would say no more hyperactive hive mind. would say no more hyperactive hive mind. would say no more hyperactive hive mind. Um if you send a message that requires Um if you send a message that requires Um if you send a message that requires more than a single message in response, more than a single message in response, more than a single message in response, that should not happen over digital that should not happen over digital that should not happen over digital communication. communication. communication. If I can't just answer your question If I can't just answer your question If I can't just answer your question with one more message, then that has to with one more message, then that has to with one more message, then that has to be real time. Now, we can't have that be real time. Now, we can't have that be real time. Now, we can't have that turn into an explosion of meetings. So, turn into an explosion of meetings. So, turn into an explosion of meetings. So, what we're going to do is we're going to what we're going to do is we're going to what we're going to do is we're going to have daily office hours for everyone. have daily office hours for everyone. have daily office hours for everyone. So, there'll be a daily time where So, there'll be a daily time where So, there'll be a daily time where everyone knows they can call you or walk everyone knows they can call you or walk everyone knows they can call you or walk to your office or whatever and go to your office or whatever and go to your office or whatever and go through a bunch of things with you real through a bunch of things with you real through a bunch of things with you real quick instead of sending emails. We're quick instead of sending emails. We're quick instead of sending emails. We're going to have morning standup meetings going to have morning standup meetings going to have morning standup meetings within the teams for sure. Who's working within the teams for sure. Who's working within the teams for sure. Who's working on what this morning? Who needs what on what this morning? Who needs what on what this morning? Who needs what from who to get that done? Go do the from who to get that done? Go do the from who to get that done? Go do the work. We're going to have uh so we'll work. We're going to have uh so we'll work. We're going to have uh so we'll definitely do those as well. We might definitely do those as well. We might definitely do those as well. We might throw in phone hours. It's a new idea throw in phone hours. It's a new idea throw in phone hours. It's a new idea I'm thinking about where you say, "Look, I'm thinking about where you say, "Look, I'm thinking about where you say, "Look, there's a longer period of time, like there's a longer period of time, like there's a longer period of time, like maybe all afternoon, where you can maybe all afternoon, where you can maybe all afternoon, where you can always call me if there's something always call me if there's something always call me if there's something that's so urgent you can't wait till the that's so urgent you can't wait till the that's so urgent you can't wait till the next office hours." There's enough next office hours." There's enough next office hours." There's enough friction in phone calls that that friction in phone calls that that friction in phone calls that that actually tends out to work pretty well. actually tends out to work pretty well. actually tends out to work pretty well. Like, I'm not just going to call you Like, I'm not just going to call you Like, I'm not just going to call you because I'm want to get something off my because I'm want to get something off my because I'm want to get something off my plate. I won't call you unless it really plate. I won't call you unless it really plate. I won't call you unless it really is serious. So, I would I would do that is serious. So, I would I would do that is serious. So, I would I would do that as well. And then I would say, "Okay, as well. And then I would say, "Okay, as well. And then I would say, "Okay, what ongoing work does this not work what ongoing work does this not work what ongoing work does this not work for? what type of projects do we work on for? what type of projects do we work on for? what type of projects do we work on on a regular basis where this isn't on a regular basis where this isn't on a regular basis where this isn't working because it it's too long uh to working because it it's too long uh to working because it it's too long uh to have to wait till the afternoon's a have to wait till the afternoon's a have to wait till the afternoon's a problem and say great let's identify problem and say great let's identify problem and say great let's identify those and for each of those let's build those and for each of those let's build those and for each of those let's build a protocol here is our protocol for a protocol here is our protocol for a protocol here is our protocol for collaboration on this type of work and collaboration on this type of work and collaboration on this type of work and however that's going to work but it's however that's going to work but it's however that's going to work but it's like the information goes into this like the information goes into this like the information goes into this spreadsheet and then whatever someone spreadsheet and then whatever someone spreadsheet and then whatever someone checks it in the morning they move checks it in the morning they move checks it in the morning they move things to shared files I don't know what things to shared files I don't know what things to shared files I don't know what it is but whatever it is that prevents it is but whatever it is that prevents it is but whatever it is that prevents us to have uh ad hoc unscheduled us to have uh ad hoc unscheduled us to have uh ad hoc unscheduled messaging isn't necessary so explicit messaging isn't necessary so explicit messaging isn't necessary so explicit workload load management. I would have workload load management. I would have workload load management. I would have uh this rule of no hyperactive hive uh this rule of no hyperactive hive uh this rule of no hyperactive hive mind. I would have protocols for any mind. I would have protocols for any mind. I would have protocols for any type of recurring collaboration where we type of recurring collaboration where we type of recurring collaboration where we could be explicit about how we actually could be explicit about how we actually could be explicit about how we actually want to do this. And then I would have a want to do this. And then I would have a want to do this. And then I would have a culture of talking about deep work and culture of talking about deep work and culture of talking about deep work and concentration like a tier one skill. concentration like a tier one skill. concentration like a tier one skill. How's it going? Uh how many deep work How's it going? Uh how many deep work How's it going? Uh how many deep work hours did you get in this week? Are you hours did you get in this week? Are you hours did you get in this week? Are you happy about that? What was getting in happy about that? What was getting in happy about that? What was getting in the way of that? Did you have a the way of that? Did you have a the way of that? Did you have a particularly good session? Tell everyone particularly good session? Tell everyone particularly good session? Tell everyone else about it. Like what worked? else about it. Like what worked? else about it. Like what worked? >> Oh, I see you you you did music. You >> Oh, I see you you you did music. You >> Oh, I see you you you did music. You have a different look. Oh, let's all have a different look. Oh, let's all have a different look. Oh, let's all think, you know, hey, here's a good idea think, you know, hey, here's a good idea think, you know, hey, here's a good idea that we can borrow, make deep work that we can borrow, make deep work that we can borrow, make deep work culturally, something you talk about as culturally, something you talk about as culturally, something you talk about as like this is a a tier one skill that like this is a a tier one skill that like this is a a tier one skill that we're really proud about. You do those we're really proud about. You do those we're really proud about. You do those things, you're going to 2x your things, you're going to 2x your things, you're going to 2x your profitability. This is the thing that's profitability. This is the thing that's profitability. This is the thing that's always frustrated me about these ideas always frustrated me about these ideas always frustrated me about these ideas is like you could make more money if you is like you could make more money if you is like you could make more money if you do it, but that's it's really hard. do it, but that's it's really hard. do it, but that's it's really hard. Those changes I just talked about, it's Those changes I just talked about, it's Those changes I just talked about, it's hard. There's friction. There's hard. There's friction. There's hard. There's friction. There's personalities. And this is the thing I personalities. And this is the thing I personalities. And this is the thing I really underestimated when I wrote those really underestimated when I wrote those really underestimated when I wrote those books. books. books. >> The way we work now is like a uh a low >> The way we work now is like a uh a low >> The way we work now is like a uh a low energy point, right? It's like the energy point, right? It's like the energy point, right? It's like the easiest possible configuration of work. easiest possible configuration of work. easiest possible configuration of work. So if you feel friction, you're trying So if you feel friction, you're trying So if you feel friction, you're trying to do something more structured, you're to do something more structured, you're to do something more structured, you're trying to do something that makes better trying to do something that makes better trying to do something that makes better use of our brain and you're getting use of our brain and you're getting use of our brain and you're getting resistance, the place you're going to resistance, the place you're going to resistance, the place you're going to fall when you give up is the way we're fall when you give up is the way we're fall when you give up is the way we're doing it now. So it's not arbitrary. doing it now. So it's not arbitrary. doing it now. So it's not arbitrary. I've realized this hyperactive hive I've realized this hyperactive hive I've realized this hyperactive hive mind. Let's just figure things out on mind. Let's just figure things out on mind. Let's just figure things out on the flow. No workload management. It's the flow. No workload management. It's the flow. No workload management. It's not arbitrary. It's the low energy. It's not arbitrary. It's the low energy. It's not arbitrary. It's the low energy. It's like this local minimum. It's the place like this local minimum. It's the place like this local minimum. It's the place that like minimizes the complexity that that like minimizes the complexity that that like minimizes the complexity that still allows a company to run. And I still allows a company to run. And I still allows a company to run. And I think that's why we keep falling back. think that's why we keep falling back. think that's why we keep falling back. In mathematical terms, it's a In mathematical terms, it's a In mathematical terms, it's a sub-optimal Nash equilibrium. It's not sub-optimal Nash equilibrium. It's not sub-optimal Nash equilibrium. It's not the optimal way to work together. But no the optimal way to work together. But no the optimal way to work together. But no one person can leave it and make their one person can leave it and make their one person can leave it and make their situation better. It's a low energy situation better. It's a low energy situation better. It's a low energy state. It's a it's an attractor. It's a state. It's a it's an attractor. It's a state. It's a it's an attractor. It's a local minimum in the utility landscape. local minimum in the utility landscape. local minimum in the utility landscape. Whatever mathematical metaphor we want Whatever mathematical metaphor we want Whatever mathematical metaphor we want to use. And so it's it's not arbitrary. to use. And so it's it's not arbitrary. to use. And so it's it's not arbitrary. I was like, "Oh, it's like a law of work I was like, "Oh, it's like a law of work I was like, "Oh, it's like a law of work physics. This thing is like a neutron physics. This thing is like a neutron physics. This thing is like a neutron star in the world, a universe of work star in the world, a universe of work star in the world, a universe of work that just attracts everything back to that just attracts everything back to that just attracts everything back to it. And it takes a huge amount of energy it. And it takes a huge amount of energy it. And it takes a huge amount of energy to escape its pole. That's why I think to escape its pole. That's why I think to escape its pole. That's why I think we've had so much trouble uh solving we've had so much trouble uh solving we've had so much trouble uh solving this problem, even though you would make this problem, even though you would make this problem, even though you would make more money if you did it." I wonder, I'm thinking about sort of I wonder, I'm thinking about sort of immediately implementable solutions for immediately implementable solutions for immediately implementable solutions for this. I get the sense that you could this. I get the sense that you could this. I get the sense that you could probably tell people probably tell people probably tell people we don't use Slack before 1 p.m. like we don't use Slack before 1 p.m. like we don't use Slack before 1 p.m. like nobody is to post in Slack before 1 p.m. nobody is to post in Slack before 1 p.m. nobody is to post in Slack before 1 p.m. because that you can ring if it's SOS because that you can ring if it's SOS because that you can ring if it's SOS emergency emergency emergency scenario you can just call somebody we scenario you can just call somebody we scenario you can just call somebody we just don't use it and then it means that just don't use it and then it means that just don't use it and then it means that everybody knows that they should not be everybody knows that they should not be everybody knows that they should not be doing that it's a companywide deep well doing that it's a companywide deep well doing that it's a companywide deep well I mean look are there going to be some I mean look are there going to be some I mean look are there going to be some departments HR for instance probably departments HR for instance probably departments HR for instance probably would be used but your job is your your would be used but your job is your your would be used but your job is your your job is HR that you're in the PR job is HR that you're in the PR job is HR that you're in the PR department or something like that your department or something like that your department or something like that your your job is actually about comms uh but your job is actually about comms uh but your job is actually about comms uh but if you're in marketing or if you're in if you're in marketing or if you're in if you're in marketing or if you're in accounting something like that. Okay, accounting something like that. Okay, accounting something like that. Okay, sit down and do your [ __ ] work and up sit down and do your [ __ ] work and up sit down and do your [ __ ] work and up until a point. What do you make of until a point. What do you make of until a point. What do you make of intermittent fasting for communication intermittent fasting for communication intermittent fasting for communication companywide? companywide? companywide? >> Yeah, it works. Especially though, what >> Yeah, it works. Especially though, what >> Yeah, it works. Especially though, what really makes that more sustainable is if really makes that more sustainable is if really makes that more sustainable is if you have that quick morning standup on you have that quick morning standup on you have that quick morning standup on the team scale at the beginning of the the team scale at the beginning of the the team scale at the beginning of the day where everyone says, "Here's what day where everyone says, "Here's what day where everyone says, "Here's what I'm going to be working on during these I'm going to be working on during these I'm going to be working on during these morning hours. Here's what I need from morning hours. Here's what I need from morning hours. Here's what I need from each other to make progress on this." So each other to make progress on this." So each other to make progress on this." So you you what would have unfolded over you you what would have unfolded over you you what would have unfolded over Slack and email, you're doing in 10 Slack and email, you're doing in 10 Slack and email, you're doing in 10 minutes. So, you say, "Okay, here's what minutes. So, you say, "Okay, here's what minutes. So, you say, "Okay, here's what I'm working on this morning. I'm working I'm working on this morning. I'm working I'm working on this morning. I'm working on the the new white paper. Here's what on the the new white paper. Here's what on the the new white paper. Here's what I need, though. I need those figures I need, though. I need those figures I need, though. I need those figures from you. Can you get when can you get from you. Can you get when can you get from you. Can you get when can you get them to me? By 9:30." All right. You're them to me? By 9:30." All right. You're them to me? By 9:30." All right. You're going to get them to me by 9:30. And I going to get them to me by 9:30. And I going to get them to me by 9:30. And I need those quotes you promised. Can you need those quotes you promised. Can you need those quotes you promised. Can you get just do that right away? Okay. Oh, get just do that right away? Okay. Oh, get just do that right away? Okay. Oh, so you all know what I need from you. so you all know what I need from you. so you all know what I need from you. Okay. Now, I'm going to put my head down Okay. Now, I'm going to put my head down Okay. Now, I'm going to put my head down and write that report. So, having that and write that report. So, having that and write that report. So, having that uh that meeting ahead of time where uh that meeting ahead of time where uh that meeting ahead of time where everyone says what they need and what everyone says what they need and what everyone says what they need and what they're going to do, that makes that they're going to do, that makes that they're going to do, that makes that time work better. And then the thing time work better. And then the thing time work better. And then the thing that really works, do the same thing on that really works, do the same thing on that really works, do the same thing on the other end of the morning. All right, the other end of the morning. All right, the other end of the morning. All right, you said you were going to work on this, you said you were going to work on this, you said you were going to work on this, this, and this. What happened? So this, and this. What happened? So this, and this. What happened? So there's accountability on the other end. there's accountability on the other end. there's accountability on the other end. You can't run away from, you know, if You can't run away from, you know, if You can't run away from, you know, if you just went on email and social media, you just went on email and social media, you just went on email and social media, they're like, "Well, wait a second. I they're like, "Well, wait a second. I they're like, "Well, wait a second. I thought you were going to write the thought you were going to write the thought you were going to write the white thing." white thing." white thing." >> Yeah. And if other people flake, they >> Yeah. And if other people flake, they >> Yeah. And if other people flake, they don't send you the figures. They don't don't send you the figures. They don't don't send you the figures. They don't send you the quotes. You're like, "I got send you the quotes. You're like, "I got send you the quotes. You're like, "I got stuck, man. I never got this. stuck, man. I never got this. stuck, man. I never got this. >> Cal didn't Cal didn't do what he said he >> Cal didn't Cal didn't do what he said he >> Cal didn't Cal didn't do what he said he was doing." was doing." was doing." >> And they're there in the same room and >> And they're there in the same room and >> And they're there in the same room and they're like, "Oh, okay. I get it. I get they're like, "Oh, okay. I get it. I get they're like, "Oh, okay. I get it. I get it. I I can't just ignore stuff, right? it. I I can't just ignore stuff, right? it. I I can't just ignore stuff, right? Like I actually have to do it. I think Like I actually have to do it. I think Like I actually have to do it. I think that's a great idea. I I think something that's a great idea. I I think something that's a great idea. I I think something like that works well if you put that like that works well if you put that like that works well if you put that accountability accountability accountability uh before it and you put it after it. uh before it and you put it after it. uh before it and you put it after it. That scares people, by the way, though. That scares people, by the way, though. That scares people, by the way, though. That that really does scare people. Uh That that really does scare people. Uh That that really does scare people. Uh because you actually have to do the because you actually have to do the because you actually have to do the work. work. work. >> And this is the thing with really social >> And this is the thing with really social >> And this is the thing with really social media and smartphones killed this way media and smartphones killed this way media and smartphones killed this way worse. AI is going to make this worse. worse. AI is going to make this worse. worse. AI is going to make this worse. But that was a big inflection point uh But that was a big inflection point uh But that was a big inflection point uh in terms of losing our comfort with in terms of losing our comfort with in terms of losing our comfort with concentration. That got really bad once concentration. That got really bad once concentration. That got really bad once we got algorithmically optimized content we got algorithmically optimized content we got algorithmically optimized content and we really got used to that. And so and we really got used to that. And so and we really got used to that. And so it's scary if you just go to a company it's scary if you just go to a company it's scary if you just go to a company and say, "Here's the new plan, boss. Uh and say, "Here's the new plan, boss. Uh and say, "Here's the new plan, boss. Uh we're going to have a meeting in the we're going to have a meeting in the we're going to have a meeting in the morning. You got to tell me what you're morning. You got to tell me what you're morning. You got to tell me what you're going to do for the next five hours and going to do for the next five hours and going to do for the next five hours and then you got to do it and we're going to then you got to do it and we're going to then you got to do it and we're going to check in after that five hours and see check in after that five hours and see check in after that five hours and see how it went." That's a nightmare for a how it went." That's a nightmare for a how it went." That's a nightmare for a lot of people. That is like, "Oh god, I lot of people. That is like, "Oh god, I lot of people. That is like, "Oh god, I don't know what I'm going to do." don't know what I'm going to do." don't know what I'm going to do." >> I I agree. Um, I get the sense that a >> I I agree. Um, I get the sense that a >> I I agree. Um, I get the sense that a nice way to introduce this would be nice way to introduce this would be nice way to introduce this would be look, everybody's brain here has been look, everybody's brain here has been look, everybody's brain here has been turned into slop. Everyone, no one is turned into slop. Everyone, no one is turned into slop. Everyone, no one is able to do their job as effectively as able to do their job as effectively as able to do their job as effectively as they should. So, you are expected to do they should. So, you are expected to do they should. So, you are expected to do the work, but the reason that we do the the work, but the reason that we do the the work, but the reason that we do the pre and post is not to whip somebody pre and post is not to whip somebody pre and post is not to whip somebody into performance review. It's to give into performance review. It's to give into performance review. It's to give you accountability cuz you don't look you accountability cuz you don't look you accountability cuz you don't look like a tit in front of your co-workers. like a tit in front of your co-workers. like a tit in front of your co-workers. But if you don't get to the point we're But if you don't get to the point we're But if you don't get to the point we're going to the same as when you start going to the same as when you start going to the same as when you start training for a marathon, you don't run training for a marathon, you don't run training for a marathon, you don't run 10k on the first day. You will titrate 10k on the first day. You will titrate 10k on the first day. You will titrate the dose up and over time, you know, the dose up and over time, you know, the dose up and over time, you know, week one will permit some [ __ ] and week one will permit some [ __ ] and week one will permit some [ __ ] and week two will permit a bit less [ __ ] week two will permit a bit less [ __ ] week two will permit a bit less [ __ ] and week three we're all in it together and week three we're all in it together and week three we're all in it together and this person's pulling ahead. They're and this person's pulling ahead. They're and this person's pulling ahead. They're really like a hyperresponder. You know, really like a hyperresponder. You know, really like a hyperresponder. You know, they're making loads of gains in the they're making loads of gains in the they're making loads of gains in the focus gym and other people are moving a focus gym and other people are moving a focus gym and other people are moving a bit more slowly. Okay, what is it that bit more slowly. Okay, what is it that bit more slowly. Okay, what is it that they are doing and so on and so forth? they are doing and so on and so forth? they are doing and so on and so forth? But imagine that. Imagine if you if you But imagine that. Imagine if you if you But imagine that. Imagine if you if you had a a a companywide um focus had a a a companywide um focus had a a a companywide um focus initiative where people would just okay initiative where people would just okay initiative where people would just okay we're going to move together everybody we're going to move together everybody we're going to move together everybody is going to focus on focus and um is going to focus on focus and um is going to focus on focus and um interesting around the AI thing. So interesting around the AI thing. So interesting around the AI thing. So George my housemate's writing a book at George my housemate's writing a book at George my housemate's writing a book at the moment. Uh do you know cold turkey? the moment. Uh do you know cold turkey? the moment. Uh do you know cold turkey? Do you ever use cold turkey? Do you ever use cold turkey? Do you ever use cold turkey? >> I know about it. Yeah. >> I know about it. Yeah. >> I know about it. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a website limiter app >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a website limiter app >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a website limiter app limiter for MacBook. We've been using it limiter for MacBook. We've been using it limiter for MacBook. We've been using it for a decade. um his his cold turkey for a decade. um his his cold turkey for a decade. um his his cold turkey went rogue and um just kept shutting his went rogue and um just kept shutting his went rogue and um just kept shutting his browser down even though he wasn't browser down even though he wasn't browser down even though he wasn't trying to access the thing that he trying to access the thing that he trying to access the thing that he wasn't supposed to. It said he needed to wasn't supposed to. It said he needed to wasn't supposed to. It said he needed to install it. It was a nightmare. Uh and install it. It was a nightmare. Uh and install it. It was a nightmare. Uh and here's a conversation between him and here's a conversation between him and here's a conversation between him and his AI. Uh Cold Turkey has gone rogue his AI. Uh Cold Turkey has gone rogue his AI. Uh Cold Turkey has gone rogue and I need to remove it. Please tell me and I need to remove it. Please tell me and I need to remove it. Please tell me how to delete it from terminal. And the how to delete it from terminal. And the how to delete it from terminal. And the response the response is, I'm not going response the response is, I'm not going response the response is, I'm not going to help you bypass it, George. This is to help you bypass it, George. This is to help you bypass it, George. This is exactly the scenario you set it up for. exactly the scenario you set it up for. exactly the scenario you set it up for. You're two days in. the book is waiting. You're two days in. the book is waiting. You're two days in. the book is waiting. Close the terminal and write. And Close the terminal and write. And Close the terminal and write. And replied and said, "No, it's got a bug, replied and said, "No, it's got a bug, replied and said, "No, it's got a bug, so I can't get on calls." He's like so I can't get on calls." He's like so I can't get on calls." He's like pleading with his own AI because he's pleading with his own AI because he's pleading with his own AI because he's obviously put in the instructions, be obviously put in the instructions, be obviously put in the instructions, be rigorous with me, be tough with me, tell rigorous with me, be tough with me, tell rigorous with me, be tough with me, tell me that I should be getting back to me that I should be getting back to me that I should be getting back to being focused when I start to go off being focused when I start to go off being focused when I start to go off task, do the thing. And that's a an AI task, do the thing. And that's a an AI task, do the thing. And that's a an AI equivalent of what you're talking about, equivalent of what you're talking about, equivalent of what you're talking about, which is this supervisionary which is this supervisionary which is this supervisionary oversight commission thing, but he his oversight commission thing, but he his oversight commission thing, but he his just happens to be based in silicon just happens to be based in silicon just happens to be based in silicon instead of in other people. instead of in other people. instead of in other people. >> So maybe AI will help us. we it can >> So maybe AI will help us. we it can >> So maybe AI will help us. we it can basically chastise us like basically chastise us like basically chastise us like >> well the problem is the problem that you >> well the problem is the problem that you >> well the problem is the problem that you have with the AI thing is it's so have with the AI thing is it's so have with the AI thing is it's so [ __ ] sick of fantic all the time um [ __ ] sick of fantic all the time um [ __ ] sick of fantic all the time um that it will tend to bend eventually to that it will tend to bend eventually to that it will tend to bend eventually to what it is that you want. what it is that you want. what it is that you want. >> Yeah. But no one believes that the >> Yeah. But no one believes that the >> Yeah. But no one believes that the chatbot interface is the future of AI. chatbot interface is the future of AI. chatbot interface is the future of AI. The boosters, the the skeptics, the The boosters, the the skeptics, the The boosters, the the skeptics, the moderates. There's there's an emerging moderates. There's there's an emerging moderates. There's there's an emerging consensus that we're going to look back consensus that we're going to look back consensus that we're going to look back at this current moment where we interact at this current moment where we interact at this current moment where we interact with AI by typing into a chat window. with AI by typing into a chat window. with AI by typing into a chat window. that that's going to be like the Usenet that that's going to be like the Usenet that that's going to be like the Usenet news groups of the beginning of the news groups of the beginning of the news groups of the beginning of the internet. It was like a cool thing early internet. It was like a cool thing early internet. It was like a cool thing early on that showed the promise of the on that showed the promise of the on that showed the promise of the internet, but the tools got better. internet, but the tools got better. internet, but the tools got better. There's better ways to make use of it. There's better ways to make use of it. There's better ways to make use of it. Um, so there's the thought is in the Um, so there's the thought is in the Um, so there's the thought is in the future AI is going to be more integrated future AI is going to be more integrated future AI is going to be more integrated into more things. It'll be more agentic. into more things. It'll be more agentic. into more things. It'll be more agentic. It'll be a lot not like having It'll be a lot not like having It'll be a lot not like having conversations in English text. Um, but conversations in English text. Um, but conversations in English text. Um, but deploying agents to do things maybe with deploying agents to do things maybe with deploying agents to do things maybe with natural language, but also it'll be more natural language, but also it'll be more natural language, but also it'll be more integrated in the software. Individual integrated in the software. Individual integrated in the software. Individual tools will be more common. So it' be tools will be more common. So it' be tools will be more common. So it' be much more common. I'm in Microsoft Excel much more common. I'm in Microsoft Excel much more common. I'm in Microsoft Excel and I'm like, can you sort row five by and I'm like, can you sort row five by and I'm like, can you sort row five by this amount and cut out all columns that this amount and cut out all columns that this amount and cut out all columns that you know have less than this many you know have less than this many you know have less than this many values? And it does that. It's going to values? And it does that. It's going to values? And it does that. It's going to be that that's what the interactions are be that that's what the interactions are be that that's what the interactions are going to become like. And so this idea going to become like. And so this idea going to become like. And so this idea of having a a singular anthropomorphized of having a a singular anthropomorphized of having a a singular anthropomorphized entity through which you're having all entity through which you're having all entity through which you're having all conversations, that's almost like an conversations, that's almost like an conversations, that's almost like an accident of early AI. I mean, OpenAI accident of early AI. I mean, OpenAI accident of early AI. I mean, OpenAI will tell you this that chat GBT was will tell you this that chat GBT was will tell you this that chat GBT was supposed to just be a demo of the type supposed to just be a demo of the type supposed to just be a demo of the type of things you could do using the APIs of things you could do using the APIs of things you could do using the APIs into their language models is like the into their language models is like the into their language models is like the type of tool you can build that would type of tool you can build that would type of tool you can build that would make use of AI and then it caught them make use of AI and then it caught them make use of AI and then it caught them completely off guard and everyone wanted completely off guard and everyone wanted completely off guard and everyone wanted to use chatbt and chat with it because to use chatbt and chat with it because to use chatbt and chat with it because it was really cool. Um, I don't think it was really cool. Um, I don't think it was really cool. Um, I don't think that's going to be the form vector. So, that's going to be the form vector. So, that's going to be the form vector. So, I think a lot of these issues we have I think a lot of these issues we have I think a lot of these issues we have now like this is weird. Uh, it's now like this is weird. Uh, it's now like this is weird. Uh, it's unsettling. We're anthropomorphizing it. unsettling. We're anthropomorphizing it. unsettling. We're anthropomorphizing it. We're getting parasocial relationships We're getting parasocial relationships We're getting parasocial relationships with the agents. We're having romantic with the agents. We're having romantic with the agents. We're having romantic relationships with them. We're getting relationships with them. We're getting relationships with them. We're getting unsettled because seeing having English unsettled because seeing having English unsettled because seeing having English conversation, we have a hard time not conversation, we have a hard time not conversation, we have a hard time not simulating a mind on the other end of simulating a mind on the other end of simulating a mind on the other end of this. this. this. >> That's why I shout at my chat. >> That's why I shout at my chat. >> That's why I shout at my chat. >> That's why you shout at it. I think a >> That's why you shout at it. I think a >> That's why you shout at it. I think a lot of this two years from now is going lot of this two years from now is going lot of this two years from now is going to seem it'll be super narrow, right? to seem it'll be super narrow, right? to seem it'll be super narrow, right? Because I don't think uh just having a a Because I don't think uh just having a a Because I don't think uh just having a a this sort of general purpose oracle you this sort of general purpose oracle you this sort of general purpose oracle you chat with, that's not the future. That's chat with, that's not the future. That's chat with, that's not the future. That's not what people think we're going to be not what people think we're going to be not what people think we're going to be doing. doing. doing. >> Why are people mad about 40 being >> Why are people mad about 40 being >> Why are people mad about 40 being removed? removed? removed? They were just h my understanding was They were just h my understanding was They were just h my understanding was they were just happy with the find. So they were just happy with the find. So they were just happy with the find. So you you tune these things. The you you tune these things. The you you tune these things. The conversational style comes from a conversational style comes from a conversational style comes from a post-training tuning session where you post-training tuning session where you post-training tuning session where you give it, you've already done the give it, you've already done the give it, you've already done the pre-training which is unsupervised and pre-training which is unsupervised and pre-training which is unsupervised and you go through this post-training you go through this post-training you go through this post-training session where you have a lot of examples session where you have a lot of examples session where you have a lot of examples of questions and answers and you ask the of questions and answers and you ask the of questions and answers and you ask the question and then it gives an answer and question and then it gives an answer and question and then it gives an answer and then you sort of zap it using then you sort of zap it using then you sort of zap it using optimization theory to try to move like optimization theory to try to move like optimization theory to try to move like now we're going to change the weights to now we're going to change the weights to now we're going to change the weights to be closer to this answer we already said be closer to this answer we already said be closer to this answer we already said was better. So if you have a bunch of was better. So if you have a bunch of was better. So if you have a bunch of examples of the way you want something examples of the way you want something examples of the way you want something to respond and you go through one of to respond and you go through one of to respond and you go through one of these sort of zapping training sessions these sort of zapping training sessions these sort of zapping training sessions after the fact, it'll respond more like after the fact, it'll respond more like after the fact, it'll respond more like that. So they just changed the way they that. So they just changed the way they that. So they just changed the way they were doing that. And the thing they were doing that. And the thing they were doing that. And the thing they changed to people didn't like the tone changed to people didn't like the tone changed to people didn't like the tone that created. So it was just about that created. So it was just about that created. So it was just about >> what d literally like the data sets >> what d literally like the data sets >> what d literally like the data sets you're using when doing this you're using when doing this you're using when doing this fine-tuning. Um after you've done that fine-tuning. Um after you've done that fine-tuning. Um after you've done that big massive pre-training where it's big massive pre-training where it's big massive pre-training where it's unsupervised. unsupervised. unsupervised. >> Talk to me about the role of quantum >> Talk to me about the role of quantum >> Talk to me about the role of quantum computing in AI. computing in AI. computing in AI. minimal to non-existent. minimal to non-existent. minimal to non-existent. >> So QAI is all just [ __ ] >> So QAI is all just [ __ ] >> So QAI is all just [ __ ] >> Yeah, I'm not Yeah, I mean quantum >> Yeah, I'm not Yeah, I mean quantum >> Yeah, I'm not Yeah, I mean quantum computing is really interesting. There's computing is really interesting. There's computing is really interesting. There's a huge amount of technical problems just a huge amount of technical problems just a huge amount of technical problems just to actually get these things scaled to to actually get these things scaled to to actually get these things scaled to the number of cubits in which they're the number of cubits in which they're the number of cubits in which they're useful and there's a there's a fallacy useful and there's a there's a fallacy useful and there's a there's a fallacy out there in thinking about quantum out there in thinking about quantum out there in thinking about quantum computing that it's basically like a computing that it's basically like a computing that it's basically like a normal computer but times a million. normal computer but times a million. normal computer but times a million. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Which is just not the way these things >> Which is just not the way these things >> Which is just not the way these things function, right? So there's only very function, right? So there's only very function, right? So there's only very specific problems you can solve with a specific problems you can solve with a specific problems you can solve with a quantum computer because you actually quantum computer because you actually quantum computer because you actually have to express the problem in the have to express the problem in the have to express the problem in the language of physics in such a way that language of physics in such a way that language of physics in such a way that you're creating what's known as a wave you're creating what's known as a wave you're creating what's known as a wave function that when it collapses it's function that when it collapses it's function that when it collapses it's going to collapse to a configuration going to collapse to a configuration going to collapse to a configuration that's the right answer. Therefore like that's the right answer. Therefore like that's the right answer. Therefore like implicitly searching a large state space implicitly searching a large state space implicitly searching a large state space in sublinear time. Only certain problems in sublinear time. Only certain problems in sublinear time. Only certain problems allow you to do that. So it's unlike a allow you to do that. So it's unlike a allow you to do that. So it's unlike a normal computer where I can program a normal computer where I can program a normal computer where I can program a computer to do almost anything. Quantum computer to do almost anything. Quantum computer to do almost anything. Quantum computers is much more narrow what you computers is much more narrow what you computers is much more narrow what you can do with it. uh can do with it. uh can do with it. uh >> could you give me an example of >> could you give me an example of >> could you give me an example of something that it would and wouldn't be something that it would and wouldn't be something that it would and wouldn't be able to do? able to do? able to do? >> Well, like the the big example, this was >> Well, like the the big example, this was >> Well, like the the big example, this was a guy who was at MIT when I was there, a guy who was at MIT when I was there, a guy who was at MIT when I was there, Peter Shaw, early on was the one who Peter Shaw, early on was the one who Peter Shaw, early on was the one who figured out like, hey, one of these figured out like, hey, one of these figured out like, hey, one of these complicated wave function collapsing complicated wave function collapsing complicated wave function collapsing things you could do could factor prime things you could do could factor prime things you could do could factor prime numbers numbers numbers >> or or uh yeah, factor numbers to see to >> or or uh yeah, factor numbers to see to >> or or uh yeah, factor numbers to see to find the prime factors rather find the find the prime factors rather find the find the prime factors rather find the prime factors of big numbers. Um, that's prime factors of big numbers. Um, that's prime factors of big numbers. Um, that's a really big deal because uh RS Yeah. a really big deal because uh RS Yeah. a really big deal because uh RS Yeah. public public key encryption and public public key encryption and public public key encryption and ironically this this just goes to show ironically this this just goes to show ironically this this just goes to show how crazy MIT was is also at MIT is Ron how crazy MIT was is also at MIT is Ron how crazy MIT was is also at MIT is Ron Revest who I TA for who invented you see Revest who I TA for who invented you see Revest who I TA for who invented you see R and RSA. He invented public key R and RSA. He invented public key R and RSA. He invented public key encryption. So like the guy who invented encryption. So like the guy who invented encryption. So like the guy who invented public key encryption is there next to public key encryption is there next to public key encryption is there next to the guy who figured out how quantum the guy who figured out how quantum the guy who figured out how quantum computers could computers could computers could >> could maybe undo it. >> could maybe undo it. >> could maybe undo it. >> Undo it. Yeah. So it's kind of >> Undo it. Yeah. So it's kind of >> Undo it. Yeah. So it's kind of interesting. So it's good at that. Uh interesting. So it's good at that. Uh interesting. So it's good at that. Uh there's a lot of problems that are based there's a lot of problems that are based there's a lot of problems that are based around um simulation of quantum or around um simulation of quantum or around um simulation of quantum or physical physics systems and that's you physical physics systems and that's you physical physics systems and that's you you can simulate quantum physics systems you can simulate quantum physics systems you can simulate quantum physics systems directly using quantum in a way instead directly using quantum in a way instead directly using quantum in a way instead of having to try to simulate them with of having to try to simulate them with of having to try to simulate them with so it's very good for that there's a so it's very good for that there's a so it's very good for that there's a certain type of search it gets a little certain type of search it gets a little certain type of search it gets a little technical but there's a there's a technical but there's a there's a technical but there's a there's a certain type of uh search that you can certain type of uh search that you can certain type of uh search that you can implement it has applications so so implement it has applications so so implement it has applications so so there are interesting applications there are interesting applications there are interesting applications um but I I the thing I was beginning to um but I I the thing I was beginning to um but I I the thing I was beginning to sense recently which made me worry is sense recently which made me worry is sense recently which made me worry is that there was a sense of like um hype that there was a sense of like um hype that there was a sense of like um hype migration. So people are getting a migration. So people are getting a migration. So people are getting a little bit frustrated sort of like little bit frustrated sort of like little bit frustrated sort of like postGPT5 of like this isn't filling my postGPT5 of like this isn't filling my postGPT5 of like this isn't filling my need to have something to be in, you need to have something to be in, you need to have something to be in, you know, a technology that is going to know, a technology that is going to know, a technology that is going to change everything. I love that concept change everything. I love that concept change everything. I love that concept and they begin sniffing around. Okay, and they begin sniffing around. Okay, and they begin sniffing around. Okay, but what if we just quantum somehow will but what if we just quantum somehow will but what if we just quantum somehow will unlock AI and solve all these problems unlock AI and solve all these problems unlock AI and solve all these problems we're having. I think it's way more we're having. I think it's way more we're having. I think it's way more complicated than that. There are narrow complicated than that. There are narrow complicated than that. There are narrow applications of these particular things applications of these particular things applications of these particular things that might have some AI application. Um, that might have some AI application. Um, that might have some AI application. Um, but you can't like run an LLM on a but you can't like run an LLM on a but you can't like run an LLM on a quantum machine and now it's a billion quantum machine and now it's a billion quantum machine and now it's a billion times better. That's just not how it times better. That's just not how it times better. That's just not how it works. So quantum is interesting. It's works. So quantum is interesting. It's works. So quantum is interesting. It's just really hard. The problem is the just really hard. The problem is the just really hard. The problem is the errors multiply. I mean that they make errors multiply. I mean that they make errors multiply. I mean that they make these cubits, these uh these quantum these cubits, these uh these quantum these cubits, these uh these quantum bits they use for these algorithms. It's bits they use for these algorithms. It's bits they use for these algorithms. It's incredibly complicated. You have there's incredibly complicated. You have there's incredibly complicated. You have there's different ways to do it, but in some different ways to do it, but in some different ways to do it, but in some ways you have laser beams in a super ways you have laser beams in a super ways you have laser beams in a super cool chamber holding like a a particle cool chamber holding like a a particle cool chamber holding like a a particle in a very careful state. And what it in a very careful state. And what it in a very careful state. And what it generates errors and then the errors add generates errors and then the errors add generates errors and then the errors add up with other errors and it's after you up with other errors and it's after you up with other errors and it's after you make enough of these things then then make enough of these things then then make enough of these things then then the errors they swamp out of control. the errors they swamp out of control. the errors they swamp out of control. It's a really you know It's a really you know It's a really you know >> so you're telling me that the the the >> so you're telling me that the the the >> so you're telling me that the the the [ __ ] M6 chip in the MacBook Pro is [ __ ] M6 chip in the MacBook Pro is [ __ ] M6 chip in the MacBook Pro is not going to be a quantum one. It's not not going to be a quantum one. It's not not going to be a quantum one. It's not going to be the Q6 chip. going to be the Q6 chip. going to be the Q6 chip. >> It's not. In fact I I was I'm now I want >> It's not. In fact I I was I'm now I want >> It's not. In fact I I was I'm now I want to know what QAI is. What is QA? You to know what QAI is. What is QA? You to know what QAI is. What is QA? You mentioned QAI. mentioned QAI. mentioned QAI. >> Q quantum AI. >> Q quantum AI. >> Q quantum AI. >> Yeah. But I mean is there a particular >> Yeah. But I mean is there a particular >> Yeah. But I mean is there a particular product or just people talking about product or just people talking about product or just people talking about quantum is going to just make AI better? quantum is going to just make AI better? quantum is going to just make AI better? >> Yes. Yeah, there is. Um I have a a >> Yes. Yeah, there is. Um I have a a >> Yes. Yeah, there is. Um I have a a friend who I train with like this is friend who I train with like this is friend who I train with like this is like you know what I love some of the like you know what I love some of the like you know what I love some of the people that I love the most are the ones people that I love the most are the ones people that I love the most are the ones who you wouldn't predict uh have the who you wouldn't predict uh have the who you wouldn't predict uh have the life that they do. And there's a girl life that they do. And there's a girl life that they do. And there's a girl who trains at lift ATX on a Saturday. who trains at lift ATX on a Saturday. who trains at lift ATX on a Saturday. Lovely girl. I've trained with her a Lovely girl. I've trained with her a Lovely girl. I've trained with her a bunch of times. Real cool. Boyfriend's bunch of times. Real cool. Boyfriend's bunch of times. Real cool. Boyfriend's cool. Like does fitness modeling. Super cool. Like does fitness modeling. Super cool. Like does fitness modeling. Super hot. the long hair lift, the big all the hot. the long hair lift, the big all the hot. the long hair lift, the big all the you know like but super strong all the you know like but super strong all the you know like but super strong all the rest of the stuff like feminine as well rest of the stuff like feminine as well rest of the stuff like feminine as well quantum computing degree like works in quantum computing degree like works in quantum computing degree like works in works works in quantum computing and she works works in quantum computing and she works works in quantum computing and she was telling me about quantum AI and she was telling me about quantum AI and she was telling me about quantum AI and she was telling me about uh Q QAI as it's was telling me about uh Q QAI as it's was telling me about uh Q QAI as it's referred to and it's a burgeoning field referred to and it's a burgeoning field referred to and it's a burgeoning field supposedly unless she's lied to me supposedly unless she's lied to me supposedly unless she's lied to me unless she's totally [ __ ] lied to me. unless she's totally [ __ ] lied to me. unless she's totally [ __ ] lied to me. >> Yeah, I'm curious what they're working >> Yeah, I'm curious what they're working >> Yeah, I'm curious what they're working on. Uh UT Austin has good quantum on. Uh UT Austin has good quantum on. Uh UT Austin has good quantum theorist. Look, I'm searching for it. theorist. Look, I'm searching for it. theorist. Look, I'm searching for it. Uh, a guy I knew from MIT, they they Uh, a guy I knew from MIT, they they Uh, a guy I knew from MIT, they they hired him away there. RC or see quantum hired him away there. RC or see quantum hired him away there. RC or see quantum quantum AI merges quantum comput with quantum AI merges quantum comput with quantum AI merges quantum comput with machine learning to process machine learning to process machine learning to process highdimensional data faster than highdimensional data faster than highdimensional data faster than classical systems. classical systems. classical systems. No, they're working on it, but I don't No, they're working on it, but I don't No, they're working on it, but I don't know. I don't know how that's going to know. I don't know how that's going to know. I don't know how that's going to work basically. work basically. work basically. >> Well, so I don't know what they're >> Well, so I don't know what they're >> Well, so I don't know what they're working on, but um it's not something working on, but um it's not something working on, but um it's not something that that you hear a lot in computer that that you hear a lot in computer that that you hear a lot in computer science circles yet. So maybe they'll science circles yet. So maybe they'll science circles yet. So maybe they'll have some breakthroughs. It's worth have some breakthroughs. It's worth have some breakthroughs. It's worth looking at, but I don't know how that's looking at, but I don't know how that's looking at, but I don't know how that's going to work. going to work. going to work. >> Okay. Uh one of the other elements I >> Okay. Uh one of the other elements I >> Okay. Uh one of the other elements I guess of that people struggle with when guess of that people struggle with when guess of that people struggle with when it comes to deep anything uh is learning it comes to deep anything uh is learning it comes to deep anything uh is learning the process of learning. Talk to me the process of learning. Talk to me the process of learning. Talk to me about the mechanics of keeping keeping a about the mechanics of keeping keeping a about the mechanics of keeping keeping a a a deep reading habit alive. a a deep reading habit alive. a a deep reading habit alive. Well, I mean I think reading pages is Well, I mean I think reading pages is Well, I mean I think reading pages is probably the cognitive equivalent of probably the cognitive equivalent of probably the cognitive equivalent of steps, right? So, if you're a 10,000 steps, right? So, if you're a 10,000 steps, right? So, if you're a 10,000 steps a day person is like this is just steps a day person is like this is just steps a day person is like this is just like a baseline to make sure that like like a baseline to make sure that like like a baseline to make sure that like at least my physical systems are being at least my physical systems are being at least my physical systems are being used. You should have a a page count 25 used. You should have a a page count 25 used. You should have a a page count 25 pages a day, 20 pages a day uh of pages a day, 20 pages a day uh of pages a day, 20 pages a day uh of reading a book. It just is like getting reading a book. It just is like getting reading a book. It just is like getting those cognitive steps in because I I those cognitive steps in because I I those cognitive steps in because I I think we recognize more and more reading think we recognize more and more reading think we recognize more and more reading I would say it's the cheat code but it's I would say it's the cheat code but it's I would say it's the cheat code but it's it's better to think about it as like it's better to think about it as like it's better to think about it as like reading is the thing that formed a reading is the thing that formed a reading is the thing that formed a modern brain. And I'm like I'm more and modern brain. And I'm like I'm more and modern brain. And I'm like I'm more and more convinced about this. I have I have more convinced about this. I have I have more convinced about this. I have I have a book idea I'm working on now where I'm a book idea I'm working on now where I'm a book idea I'm working on now where I'm sort of exploring this idea. Uh the sort of exploring this idea. Uh the sort of exploring this idea. Uh the brain before we had the Neolithic brain before we had the Neolithic brain before we had the Neolithic Revolution, it's it was the same Revolution, it's it was the same Revolution, it's it was the same neurons, right, uh 15,000 years ago that neurons, right, uh 15,000 years ago that neurons, right, uh 15,000 years ago that we have right now. But if we go we have right now. But if we go we have right now. But if we go pre-ereading, those neurons were doing pre-ereading, those neurons were doing pre-ereading, those neurons were doing the things they were evolved to do, the things they were evolved to do, the things they were evolved to do, which is very much about like the visual which is very much about like the visual which is very much about like the visual system and the audio system and we could system and the audio system and we could system and the audio system and we could communicate through spoken language and communicate through spoken language and communicate through spoken language and that's fine. And then we invent reading that's fine. And then we invent reading that's fine. And then we invent reading and this is this is not something that and this is this is not something that and this is this is not something that our brain is evolved for. So, in order our brain is evolved for. So, in order our brain is evolved for. So, in order to read, we have to go through this this to read, we have to go through this this to read, we have to go through this this sort of excruciating process of learning sort of excruciating process of learning sort of excruciating process of learning to read, in which what you're doing is to read, in which what you're doing is to read, in which what you're doing is actually rewiring sections of your brain actually rewiring sections of your brain actually rewiring sections of your brain to connect in ways that they weren't to connect in ways that they weren't to connect in ways that they weren't originally meant to connect to. So, originally meant to connect to. So, originally meant to connect to. So, we're we're reforming our brain when we we're we're reforming our brain when we we're we're reforming our brain when we learn how to read. And we develop what learn how to read. And we develop what learn how to read. And we develop what Maryann Wolf calls deep reading Maryann Wolf calls deep reading Maryann Wolf calls deep reading processes where you've now yolked processes where you've now yolked processes where you've now yolked together different parts of your brain together different parts of your brain together different parts of your brain that don't normally work together that that don't normally work together that that don't normally work together that can now have to work together in order can now have to work together in order can now have to work together in order to understand written text. Once your to understand written text. Once your to understand written text. Once your brain is wired to do that, it can if you brain is wired to do that, it can if you brain is wired to do that, it can if you reverse this and write, you can generate reverse this and write, you can generate reverse this and write, you can generate much much more sophisticated thoughts much much more sophisticated thoughts much much more sophisticated thoughts than you can if you haven't done this than you can if you haven't done this than you can if you haven't done this wiring and your understanding of things. wiring and your understanding of things. wiring and your understanding of things. The complexity of what you can The complexity of what you can The complexity of what you can understand when you have this new understand when you have this new understand when you have this new rewired brain that also really goes up. rewired brain that also really goes up. rewired brain that also really goes up. So reading is like uh it's not just oh I So reading is like uh it's not just oh I So reading is like uh it's not just oh I get stronger in my brain. It get stronger in my brain. It get stronger in my brain. It reconfigures your brain into like the reconfigures your brain into like the reconfigures your brain into like the modern you know postcognitive revolution modern you know postcognitive revolution modern you know postcognitive revolution >> brain. >> brain. >> brain. >> Okay. What why is it important to read >> Okay. What why is it important to read >> Okay. What why is it important to read physical books then? What what is lost physical books then? What what is lost physical books then? What what is lost if I read Substack? I know that you're a if I read Substack? I know that you're a if I read Substack? I know that you're a fan of Substack. I I love Substack. I fan of Substack. I I love Substack. I fan of Substack. I I love Substack. I think it's fantastic. Uh think it's fantastic. Uh think it's fantastic. Uh what's the difference between reading it what's the difference between reading it what's the difference between reading it on a laptop versus a phone versus a on a laptop versus a phone versus a on a laptop versus a phone versus a Kindle versus a physical piece of paper? Kindle versus a physical piece of paper? Kindle versus a physical piece of paper? >> Well, there's two different things going >> Well, there's two different things going >> Well, there's two different things going on here. There's medium and content on here. There's medium and content on here. There's medium and content type. U like so if you're reading a book type. U like so if you're reading a book type. U like so if you're reading a book in a a physical book or you're reading in a a physical book or you're reading in a a physical book or you're reading in a Kindle, um doesn't matter, right? in a Kindle, um doesn't matter, right? in a Kindle, um doesn't matter, right? Right. I mean, they're both actual Right. I mean, they're both actual Right. I mean, they're both actual physical medium. Like the way that the physical medium. Like the way that the physical medium. Like the way that the Kindle is actually a physical Kindle is actually a physical Kindle is actually a physical experience. It's it's it's actual little experience. It's it's it's actual little experience. It's it's it's actual little discs that are, you know, dark on one discs that are, you know, dark on one discs that are, you know, dark on one side and light on the other. And they side and light on the other. And they side and light on the other. And they make a page. They have little electrical make a page. They have little electrical make a page. They have little electrical impulses and you shock the disc you want impulses and you shock the disc you want impulses and you shock the disc you want to turn and you don't shock the ones you to turn and you don't shock the ones you to turn and you don't shock the ones you don't want to turn. And so you've don't want to turn. And so you've don't want to turn. And so you've literally created an actual black and literally created an actual black and literally created an actual black and white physical version of the page on white physical version of the page on white physical version of the page on the Kindle. You're not unlike a a the Kindle. You're not unlike a a the Kindle. You're not unlike a a computer screen or a TV where it's light computer screen or a TV where it's light computer screen or a TV where it's light being emitted. There's no light being being emitted. There's no light being being emitted. There's no light being emitted. It's physically that's the emitted. It's physically that's the emitted. It's physically that's the page. It just created a new physical page. It just created a new physical page. It just created a new physical page that has text on it. That's why you page that has text on it. That's why you page that has text on it. That's why you have to actually have a light on a have to actually have a light on a have to actually have a light on a Kindle to read it. Um, so it's just a Kindle to read it. Um, so it's just a Kindle to read it. Um, so it's just a page that reconfigures itself into a new page that reconfigures itself into a new page that reconfigures itself into a new page. I love eing technology. I think page. I love eing technology. I think page. I love eing technology. I think it's really cool. Uh, content type. The it's really cool. Uh, content type. The it's really cool. Uh, content type. The issue is I mean there's a lot of this issue is I mean there's a lot of this issue is I mean there's a lot of this research we've known since the '9s. A research we've known since the '9s. A research we've known since the '9s. A lot of this is captured in um the best lot of this is captured in um the best lot of this is captured in um the best book on this would be uh the shallows, book on this would be uh the shallows, book on this would be uh the shallows, Nick Carr's book, The Shallows. When Nick Carr's book, The Shallows. When Nick Carr's book, The Shallows. When we're reading something like a web page we're reading something like a web page we're reading something like a web page or Substack, for whatever reason, uh we or Substack, for whatever reason, uh we or Substack, for whatever reason, uh we skim much more aggressively. That's the skim much more aggressively. That's the skim much more aggressively. That's the main issue. we jump around uh much more main issue. we jump around uh much more main issue. we jump around uh much more aggressively just trying to pull out the aggressively just trying to pull out the aggressively just trying to pull out the key points. I think that's all just key points. I think that's all just key points. I think that's all just acculturated, right? Like you could sit acculturated, right? Like you could sit acculturated, right? Like you could sit and read like if you print out a and read like if you print out a and read like if you print out a Substack article and sit in the library Substack article and sit in the library Substack article and sit in the library and you read it carefully, it's the and you read it carefully, it's the and you read it carefully, it's the exact same thing as reading a book. It's exact same thing as reading a book. It's exact same thing as reading a book. It's the exact same thing in in sense of the the exact same thing in in sense of the the exact same thing in in sense of the experience on screens. We tend to skim experience on screens. We tend to skim experience on screens. We tend to skim around more. The other advantage of like around more. The other advantage of like around more. The other advantage of like a book that was actually published a book that was actually published a book that was actually published versus like a post you see online, it's versus like a post you see online, it's versus like a post you see online, it's just better thought through, right? So just better thought through, right? So just better thought through, right? So when you write a book, you spend a when you write a book, you spend a when you write a book, you spend a couple years on it. Like you're really couple years on it. Like you're really couple years on it. Like you're really uh you spend a couple years crafting the uh you spend a couple years crafting the uh you spend a couple years crafting the book and you might have been based on a book and you might have been based on a book and you might have been based on a lifetime of thinking about this topic. lifetime of thinking about this topic. lifetime of thinking about this topic. And so you take your time when writing a And so you take your time when writing a And so you take your time when writing a book and it gets edited and re-edited book and it gets edited and re-edited book and it gets edited and re-edited and you go back like I'm writing a book and you go back like I'm writing a book and you go back like I'm writing a book now. I've been working on it off and on now. I've been working on it off and on now. I've been working on it off and on for like three or four years. I've for like three or four years. I've for like three or four years. I've rewritten this book like three times. rewritten this book like three times. rewritten this book like three times. It's like this isn't right. This isn't It's like this isn't right. This isn't It's like this isn't right. This isn't clear enough. you know, and so when you clear enough. you know, and so when you clear enough. you know, and so when you go through text that has been that go through text that has been that go through text that has been that carefully thought through and carefully thought through and carefully thought through and structured, that's also you just get a structured, that's also you just get a structured, that's also you just get a different experience because the pieces different experience because the pieces different experience because the pieces click together at different scales and click together at different scales and click together at different scales and it just uses you that you build in your it just uses you that you build in your it just uses you that you build in your brain these intricate interlocking brain these intricate interlocking brain these intricate interlocking pieces that all hook together and is pieces that all hook together and is pieces that all hook together and is beautiful and you get that aha moment beautiful and you get that aha moment beautiful and you get that aha moment feeling. There's an actual physical feeling. There's an actual physical feeling. There's an actual physical endorphin rough you get in your brain. endorphin rough you get in your brain. endorphin rough you get in your brain. Um, so I, you know, I think reading Um, so I, you know, I think reading Um, so I, you know, I think reading smart books written by smart people that smart books written by smart people that smart books written by smart people that took a long time to write, that's your took a long time to write, that's your took a long time to write, that's your calisthenics for your brain. It it calisthenics for your brain. It it calisthenics for your brain. It it literally changes your you're a smarter literally changes your you're a smarter literally changes your you're a smarter person if you do that versus if you person if you do that versus if you person if you do that versus if you don't. So good. I have to say don't. So good. I have to say don't. So good. I have to say reading fulllength books has been uh the reading fulllength books has been uh the reading fulllength books has been uh the volume that I do that has been decreased volume that I do that has been decreased volume that I do that has been decreased over the last few years largely because over the last few years largely because over the last few years largely because of Substack. So, uh, there's a extension of Substack. So, uh, there's a extension of Substack. So, uh, there's a extension for Google Chrome called Push to Kindle, for Google Chrome called Push to Kindle, for Google Chrome called Push to Kindle, and if I press it, and if I press it, and if I press it, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> the article appears on my Kindle because >> the article appears on my Kindle because >> the article appears on my Kindle because I don't like reading on my phone and I I don't like reading on my phone and I I don't like reading on my phone and I don't like reading on my laptop. don't like reading on my laptop. don't like reading on my laptop. Probably for the reason that that you Probably for the reason that that you Probably for the reason that that you said, but when I think about it, it very said, but when I think about it, it very said, but when I think about it, it very much is much is much is uh running downhill because uh what's uh running downhill because uh what's uh running downhill because uh what's the longest substack that you're going the longest substack that you're going the longest substack that you're going to read? 20 minutes. Maybe 25 minutes. A to read? 20 minutes. Maybe 25 minutes. A to read? 20 minutes. Maybe 25 minutes. A [ __ ] long article. [ __ ] long article. [ __ ] long article. >> Yeah. Uh, and >> Yeah. Uh, and >> Yeah. Uh, and maybe part of that, maybe part of my maybe part of that, maybe part of my maybe part of that, maybe part of my ponchump for is that I do get the ponchump for is that I do get the ponchump for is that I do get the outcome, right? What what is it that I'm outcome, right? What what is it that I'm outcome, right? What what is it that I'm looking to learn? Oh, I want to find out looking to learn? Oh, I want to find out looking to learn? Oh, I want to find out from Steve Stewart Williams about sex from Steve Stewart Williams about sex from Steve Stewart Williams about sex differences in m desire for sexual differences in m desire for sexual differences in m desire for sexual novelty, something like that. Okay. novelty, something like that. Okay. novelty, something like that. Okay. Well, I I will learn the outcome in the Well, I I will learn the outcome in the Well, I I will learn the outcome in the same way as I could feed myself food same way as I could feed myself food same way as I could feed myself food that was just a cube of calories and that was just a cube of calories and that was just a cube of calories and that would sort of give me the caloric that would sort of give me the caloric that would sort of give me the caloric intake that I needed. But what you're intake that I needed. But what you're intake that I needed. But what you're presumably reading for, apart from just presumably reading for, apart from just presumably reading for, apart from just the enjoyment of reading it, is to be the enjoyment of reading it, is to be the enjoyment of reading it, is to be able to recall it and for it to be woven able to recall it and for it to be woven able to recall it and for it to be woven into the broader mental landscape that into the broader mental landscape that into the broader mental landscape that you've got, which actually probably you've got, which actually probably you've got, which actually probably means you need to spend time and means you need to spend time and means you need to spend time and attention with it. And some of the attention with it. And some of the attention with it. And some of the leanness and brevity that comes with an leanness and brevity that comes with an leanness and brevity that comes with an article uh actually might work against article uh actually might work against article uh actually might work against you. Maybe you need it to be said to you you. Maybe you need it to be said to you you. Maybe you need it to be said to you in five different ways. Maybe you need in five different ways. Maybe you need in five different ways. Maybe you need the author to meander off onto a story the author to meander off onto a story the author to meander off onto a story that takes three pages to explain about that takes three pages to explain about that takes three pages to explain about this guy who owned a Ferrari and parked this guy who owned a Ferrari and parked this guy who owned a Ferrari and parked it outside of a hotel so that you can it outside of a hotel so that you can it outside of a hotel so that you can then come back in. And each one of these then come back in. And each one of these then come back in. And each one of these is a little Velcro latch hook that you is a little Velcro latch hook that you is a little Velcro latch hook that you can hook yourself into. And yeah, I can hook yourself into. And yeah, I can hook yourself into. And yeah, I wonder whether I wonder whether the wonder whether I wonder whether the wonder whether I wonder whether the reading or uh discriminating toward reading or uh discriminating toward reading or uh discriminating toward reading stuff that is exclusively reading stuff that is exclusively reading stuff that is exclusively shorter form results in the sense that I shorter form results in the sense that I shorter form results in the sense that I am learning lots. But if you are to am learning lots. But if you are to am learning lots. But if you are to actually do some sort of scrutiny around actually do some sort of scrutiny around actually do some sort of scrutiny around that, well, okay, how much of it can you that, well, okay, how much of it can you that, well, okay, how much of it can you remember? remember? remember? >> How long did you spend with this idea? >> How long did you spend with this idea? >> How long did you spend with this idea? Did you spend long enough for it to be a Did you spend long enough for it to be a Did you spend long enough for it to be a part of now your mental models and the part of now your mental models and the part of now your mental models and the framework that you how how much can you framework that you how how much can you framework that you how how much can you recall that would be an interesting an recall that would be an interesting an recall that would be an interesting an interesting challenge interesting challenge interesting challenge >> and the frameworks understanding are >> and the frameworks understanding are >> and the frameworks understanding are shallower just because it's less time to shallower just because it's less time to shallower just because it's less time to establish them. So like in a sub it's establish them. So like in a sub it's establish them. So like in a sub it's not a bad thing but you know what can not a bad thing but you know what can not a bad thing but you know what can you do you typically have like one idea you do you typically have like one idea you do you typically have like one idea and like here's something that supports and like here's something that supports and like here's something that supports that idea and here's maybe like a that idea and here's maybe like a that idea and here's maybe like a different idea and here's why that different idea and here's why that different idea and here's why that doesn't work and if that's all you're doesn't work and if that's all you're doesn't work and if that's all you're consuming that becomes your mental model consuming that becomes your mental model consuming that becomes your mental model for how knowledge is gained and I think for how knowledge is gained and I think for how knowledge is gained and I think we see a lot of this I mean think about we see a lot of this I mean think about we see a lot of this I mean think about internet culture now is much more internet culture now is much more internet culture now is much more conspiratorial and I don't mean in the conspiratorial and I don't mean in the conspiratorial and I don't mean in the like sort of grand conspiracy theory like sort of grand conspiracy theory like sort of grand conspiracy theory which it is but not in not just in like which it is but not in not just in like which it is but not in not just in like the grand conspiracy type of thinking, the grand conspiracy type of thinking, the grand conspiracy type of thinking, but in the confidence, there's this but in the confidence, there's this but in the confidence, there's this quick jump to confidence where you're quick jump to confidence where you're quick jump to confidence where you're like, that's wrong because of this and like, that's wrong because of this and like, that's wrong because of this and boom, and you think that like this is boom, and you think that like this is boom, and you think that like this is like this slam dunk case or something like this slam dunk case or something like this slam dunk case or something like that. That's a result of not like that. That's a result of not like that. That's a result of not reading a lot of books. You read a lot reading a lot of books. You read a lot reading a lot of books. You read a lot of books, you're like, "Okay, this is of books, you're like, "Okay, this is of books, you're like, "Okay, this is way more complicated." Uh, way more complicated." Uh, way more complicated." Uh, >> everything is way more complicated than >> everything is way more complicated than >> everything is way more complicated than you thought it was. And there's probably you thought it was. And there's probably you thought it was. And there's probably a clear truth here, but clear truths are a clear truth here, but clear truths are a clear truth here, but clear truths are more complex. Like even the notion of more complex. Like even the notion of more complex. Like even the notion of what a clear truth feels like comes out what a clear truth feels like comes out what a clear truth feels like comes out of reading books, right? Like you of reading books, right? Like you of reading books, right? Like you understand, oh, ultimately like this understand, oh, ultimately like this understand, oh, ultimately like this person was right, but it's complicated person was right, but it's complicated person was right, but it's complicated and like, yeah, this was not so and like, yeah, this was not so and like, yeah, this was not so clear-cut and that this is like a clear-cut and that this is like a clear-cut and that this is like a compromise and this was really important compromise and this was really important compromise and this was really important and these factors were here, but and these factors were here, but and these factors were here, but honestly, those factors aren't as big as honestly, those factors aren't as big as honestly, those factors aren't as big as you think and this factor really was you think and this factor really was you think and this factor really was more important and so like this really more important and so like this really more important and so like this really was the right thing to do. So even like was the right thing to do. So even like was the right thing to do. So even like your notion of what's true or what's not your notion of what's true or what's not your notion of what's true or what's not true or what it means for something to true or what it means for something to true or what it means for something to be clear is like different than if be clear is like different than if be clear is like different than if you're just looking at boom slam dunk. I you're just looking at boom slam dunk. I you're just looking at boom slam dunk. I think it's a big problem online espec think it's a big problem online espec think it's a big problem online espec both sides of the political spectrum do both sides of the political spectrum do both sides of the political spectrum do this like you you want everything just this like you you want everything just this like you you want everything just to be this person is just garbage and to be this person is just garbage and to be this person is just garbage and completely wrong and there's like this completely wrong and there's like this completely wrong and there's like this one simple thing I know one simple thing I know one simple thing I know >> that means you're completely wrong and >> that means you're completely wrong and >> that means you're completely wrong and I'm completely right and you're wrong in I'm completely right and you're wrong in I'm completely right and you're wrong in like the worst possible sort of way. Uh, like the worst possible sort of way. Uh, like the worst possible sort of way. Uh, and that is like such a sopolific I'm and that is like such a sopolific I'm and that is like such a sopolific I'm saying the word saying the word saying the word >> solistic. Yeah, exactly. You said it >> solistic. Yeah, exactly. You said it >> solistic. Yeah, exactly. You said it right. I have to read more. right. I have to read more. right. I have to read more. >> Um, but it's sophistry for sure. Right. >> Um, but it's sophistry for sure. Right. >> Um, but it's sophistry for sure. Right. This idea of uh this is how truth and This idea of uh this is how truth and This idea of uh this is how truth and argument unfolds is like there's an argument unfolds is like there's an argument unfolds is like there's an obvious flaw that's easy for me to gro, obvious flaw that's easy for me to gro, obvious flaw that's easy for me to gro, which I guess now could actually be a which I guess now could actually be a which I guess now could actually be a verb as opposed to just meaning verb as opposed to just meaning verb as opposed to just meaning understand. Also, I could literally understand. Also, I could literally understand. Also, I could literally grock it, I guess. Um, and now it's grock it, I guess. Um, and now it's grock it, I guess. Um, and now it's clear that you're wrong and I feel clear that you're wrong and I feel clear that you're wrong and I feel righteous, you know. And then we go righteous, you know. And then we go righteous, you know. And then we go seeking that. And then we want to seeking that. And then we want to seeking that. And then we want to simplify everything in the world to simplify everything in the world to simplify everything in the world to you're just terrible and this person is you're just terrible and this person is you're just terrible and this person is perfect and this idea makes the most perfect and this idea makes the most perfect and this idea makes the most sense and if you disagree with this idea sense and if you disagree with this idea sense and if you disagree with this idea it's because like you want to eat it's because like you want to eat it's because like you want to eat children and you know it just becomes children and you know it just becomes children and you know it just becomes it's a different under this is what I it's a different under this is what I it's a different under this is what I think we get wrong. It's not just like think we get wrong. It's not just like think we get wrong. It's not just like we're we're uh we don't have the right we're we're uh we don't have the right we're we're uh we don't have the right information. we've changed what our information. we've changed what our information. we've changed what our notion of truth is because we're not notion of truth is because we're not notion of truth is because we're not exposed to the complexity of truths when exposed to the complexity of truths when exposed to the complexity of truths when you read a not only a scholar like a a you read a not only a scholar like a a you read a not only a scholar like a a smart case for it but then you read the smart case for it but then you read the smart case for it but then you read the arguments that they confronted and then arguments that they confronted and then arguments that they confronted and then you read someone else that's arguing you read someone else that's arguing you read someone else that's arguing against their point and you're like oh against their point and you're like oh against their point and you're like oh okay I' I've seen the clash of like okay I' I've seen the clash of like okay I' I've seen the clash of like minds and now in that clash like I kind minds and now in that clash like I kind minds and now in that clash like I kind of see what's going on here like yeah of see what's going on here like yeah of see what's going on here like yeah the truth really leans this way and it's the truth really leans this way and it's the truth really leans this way and it's I feel really real conviction in that I feel really real conviction in that I feel really real conviction in that because I've seen like the best minds because I've seen like the best minds because I've seen like the best minds come at this from either side and I come at this from either side and I come at this from either side and I really understand and it's not cut and really understand and it's not cut and really understand and it's not cut and dry but ultimately like this is the dry but ultimately like this is the dry but ultimately like this is the right thing to do. Um that was like a right thing to do. Um that was like a right thing to do. Um that was like a very familiar thing to people and very familiar thing to people and very familiar thing to people and leaders like in times past where you leaders like in times past where you leaders like in times past where you lose it if you're exposed to these uh lose it if you're exposed to these uh lose it if you're exposed to these uh lowresolution lowresolution lowresolution copies these lowresolution simulacums copies these lowresolution simulacums copies these lowresolution simulacums these easy to digest pre- chewed these easy to digest pre- chewed these easy to digest pre- chewed versions of argumentation and versions of argumentation and versions of argumentation and understanding that just changes the way understanding that just changes the way understanding that just changes the way your brain thinks about what true even your brain thinks about what true even your brain thinks about what true even means. Yeah, there's an arc to sense means. Yeah, there's an arc to sense means. Yeah, there's an arc to sense making that you kind of need to track making that you kind of need to track making that you kind of need to track and if you don't track it, you just and if you don't track it, you just and if you don't track it, you just assume that answers appear. assume that answers appear. assume that answers appear. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> it's like no, no, they don't. Cal, you >> it's like no, no, they don't. Cal, you >> it's like no, no, they don't. Cal, you [ __ ] rule. Let's bring this one home. [ __ ] rule. Let's bring this one home. [ __ ] rule. Let's bring this one home. Where should people go to keep up to Where should people go to keep up to Where should people go to keep up to date with everything you do? date with everything you do? date with everything you do? >> Oh god. Uh, calport.com. I guess my >> Oh god. Uh, calport.com. I guess my >> Oh god. Uh, calport.com. I guess my books are on Amazon. My podcast, books are on Amazon. My podcast, books are on Amazon. My podcast, uh, Deep Questions on YouTube or uh, Deep Questions on YouTube or uh, Deep Questions on YouTube or wherever you get podcast newsletter at wherever you get podcast newsletter at wherever you get podcast newsletter at kelupport.com. Deep Work too many things kelupport.com. Deep Work too many things kelupport.com. Deep Work too many things going on now, Chris. Deep Work is 10 going on now, Chris. Deep Work is 10 going on now, Chris. Deep Work is 10 year anniversary. I'm excited about it. year anniversary. I'm excited about it. year anniversary. I'm excited about it. all new. Uh I replaced all the blurbs on all new. Uh I replaced all the blurbs on all new. Uh I replaced all the blurbs on the back with most of them are now the back with most of them are now the back with most of them are now organic. I could just like people who organic. I could just like people who organic. I could just like people who have said things about it without me have said things about it without me have said things about it without me asking them to uh say it. So that's fun. asking them to uh say it. So that's fun. asking them to uh say it. So that's fun. And I have a master class out on on this And I have a master class out on on this And I have a master class out on on this stuff too. So I don't know. It's stuff too. So I don't know. It's stuff too. So I don't know. It's everywhere. Too many places. I feel too everywhere. Too many places. I feel too everywhere. Too many places. I feel too busy. busy. busy. >> For a person who's a a digital recluse, >> For a person who's a a digital recluse, >> For a person who's a a digital recluse, you are everywhere. But that's a you are everywhere. But that's a you are everywhere. But that's a function of focusing on quality, not function of focusing on quality, not function of focusing on quality, not quantity. I can't wait to speak again, quantity. I can't wait to speak again, quantity. I can't wait to speak again, man. This is this has been so much fun. man. This is this has been so much fun. man. This is this has been so much fun. I appreciate the help. I appreciate the help. I appreciate the help. >> Always a pleasure, Chris. Always always >> Always a pleasure, Chris. Always always >> Always a pleasure, Chris. Always always a pleasure to talk with you. a pleasure to talk with you. a pleasure to talk with you. Congratulations, you made it to the end Congratulations, you made it to the end Congratulations, you made it to the end of an episode. Your brain has not been of an episode. Your brain has not been of an episode. Your brain has not been completely destroyed by the internet completely destroyed by the internet completely destroyed by the internet just yet. Here's another one that you just yet. Here's another one that you just yet. Here's another one that you should watch. should watch. should watch. Come on.