The Ancient Philosophy That Makes Anxiety Optional | Maria Semple

Maria Simple, welcome to the show. Maria Simple, welcome to the show. >> Thank you. I'm excited to be here. Dan, >> Thank you. I'm excited to be here. Dan, >> Thank you. I'm excited to be here. Dan, >> your book is awesome. Go Gentle. >> your book is awesome. Go Gentle. >> your book is awesome. Go Gentle. Everybody should read it. Um I I was Everybody should read it. Um I I was Everybody should read it. Um I I was lucky enough to get an uh an early copy lucky enough to get an uh an early copy lucky enough to get an uh an early copy uh because we're friends. Um and yeah, uh because we're friends. Um and yeah, uh because we're friends. Um and yeah, just let me start by saying just let me start by saying just let me start by saying congratulations. congratulations. congratulations. >> Thank you. Thank you. It's exciting for >> Thank you. Thank you. It's exciting for >> Thank you. Thank you. It's exciting for me that it's out in the world now and me that it's out in the world now and me that it's out in the world now and people are starting to read it. It's people are starting to read it. It's people are starting to read it. It's very cool. Yeah, it's super cool. I very cool. Yeah, it's super cool. I very cool. Yeah, it's super cool. I mean, I'll just speak selfishly that mean, I'll just speak selfishly that mean, I'll just speak selfishly that that having talked to you throughout, that having talked to you throughout, that having talked to you throughout, you know, I I I we met each other a you know, I I I we met each other a you know, I I I we met each other a couple years ago and and just being able couple years ago and and just being able couple years ago and and just being able to watch you do this thing u in the to watch you do this thing u in the to watch you do this thing u in the middle of a period of like real personal middle of a period of like real personal middle of a period of like real personal tumult uh on your side. Um yeah, it's tumult uh on your side. Um yeah, it's tumult uh on your side. Um yeah, it's very cool to watch it from soup to nuts. very cool to watch it from soup to nuts. very cool to watch it from soup to nuts. >> Oh, thank you. Yeah. To go from I'm sure >> Oh, thank you. Yeah. To go from I'm sure >> Oh, thank you. Yeah. To go from I'm sure we met when I was desparing that the we met when I was desparing that the we met when I was desparing that the book wouldn't come together and probably book wouldn't come together and probably book wouldn't come together and probably also giddy that I was writing the also giddy that I was writing the also giddy that I was writing the greatest thing ever. It's all, you know, greatest thing ever. It's all, you know, greatest thing ever. It's all, you know, you cover every single thing when you're you cover every single thing when you're you cover every single thing when you're writing a novel. It takes, you know, writing a novel. It takes, you know, writing a novel. It takes, you know, years and you kind of feel all the years and you kind of feel all the years and you kind of feel all the emotions while you're doing it. emotions while you're doing it. emotions while you're doing it. >> You had a um you had a sign that you put >> You had a um you had a sign that you put >> You had a um you had a sign that you put on your computer on your computer on your computer >> while you were writing it and I think it >> while you were writing it and I think it >> while you were writing it and I think it it said, "Dig it, baby." it said, "Dig it, baby." it said, "Dig it, baby." >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. What was Can you just unpack that? What was Can you just unpack that? What was Can you just unpack that? >> Yeah. So, I have a sign that says, "Dig >> Yeah. So, I have a sign that says, "Dig >> Yeah. So, I have a sign that says, "Dig it, baby." And what it what it does for it, baby." And what it what it does for it, baby." And what it what it does for me is it basically tells me that if I'm me is it basically tells me that if I'm me is it basically tells me that if I'm not loving what I'm writing, I should not loving what I'm writing, I should not loving what I'm writing, I should just get up and walk away and just wait just get up and walk away and just wait just get up and walk away and just wait till I dig it. Like, I'm I'm not going till I dig it. Like, I'm I'm not going till I dig it. Like, I'm I'm not going to start right. I'm not going to to start right. I'm not going to to start right. I'm not going to continue writing unless I fully dig it. continue writing unless I fully dig it. continue writing unless I fully dig it. And that um the the story of that is And that um the the story of that is And that um the the story of that is that many years ago um u uh my former that many years ago um u uh my former that many years ago um u uh my former partner and I produced this show partner and I produced this show partner and I produced this show together and he was doing a series of together and he was doing a series of together and he was doing a series of monologues and he'd never done monologues and he'd never done monologues and he'd never done monologues before in his life and he'd monologues before in his life and he'd monologues before in his life and he'd never performed and I had gone to a never performed and I had gone to a never performed and I had gone to a Buddhist meditation retreat, a week of Buddhist meditation retreat, a week of Buddhist meditation retreat, a week of silence and the only time we could speak silence and the only time we could speak silence and the only time we could speak was when a guy named Scott Kelman was when a guy named Scott Kelman was when a guy named Scott Kelman who was an acting teacher came in and who was an acting teacher came in and who was an acting teacher came in and and did with us something he called the and did with us something he called the and did with us something he called the work. And it was this I guess they were work. And it was this I guess they were work. And it was this I guess they were acting exercises. I I'm still kind of acting exercises. I I'm still kind of acting exercises. I I'm still kind of unclear about what an acting teacher was unclear about what an acting teacher was unclear about what an acting teacher was doing in a Buddhist meditation um silent doing in a Buddhist meditation um silent doing in a Buddhist meditation um silent retreat, but he came and he was really retreat, but he came and he was really retreat, but he came and he was really reminded me of of um like Roy Shider and reminded me of of um like Roy Shider and reminded me of of um like Roy Shider and in um uh and all that jazz when he was in um uh and all that jazz when he was in um uh and all that jazz when he was playing Bob FSY. He was just like a playing Bob FSY. He was just like a playing Bob FSY. He was just like a seriously cool cat, this guy. And he seriously cool cat, this guy. And he seriously cool cat, this guy. And he would just make us go really deep and would just make us go really deep and would just make us go really deep and and kind of stand in front of people and and kind of stand in front of people and and kind of stand in front of people and and look at them and kind of tolerate and look at them and kind of tolerate and look at them and kind of tolerate being looked at and then all the being looked at and then all the being looked at and then all the emotions that came up from it. So maybe emotions that came up from it. So maybe emotions that came up from it. So maybe there was some kind of Buddhist stuff, there was some kind of Buddhist stuff, there was some kind of Buddhist stuff, but so I really like this guy. And right but so I really like this guy. And right but so I really like this guy. And right before um our opening night of of this before um our opening night of of this before um our opening night of of this show, uh George, my ex, was kind of show, uh George, my ex, was kind of show, uh George, my ex, was kind of nervous about for the first time going nervous about for the first time going nervous about for the first time going up in front of an audience. And so I up in front of an audience. And so I up in front of an audience. And so I said, "I think we should bring in this said, "I think we should bring in this said, "I think we should bring in this guy, Scott Kelman. I think that he's guy, Scott Kelman. I think that he's guy, Scott Kelman. I think that he's going to be able to help you." So Scott going to be able to help you." So Scott going to be able to help you." So Scott came in and watched George do these came in and watched George do these came in and watched George do these monologues. and George um like stared at monologues. and George um like stared at monologues. and George um like stared at this spot like high up on the ceiling this spot like high up on the ceiling this spot like high up on the ceiling and just read and delivered the and just read and delivered the and just read and delivered the monologue, his first one. And then Scott monologue, his first one. And then Scott monologue, his first one. And then Scott said to George, "Who are you looking said to George, "Who are you looking said to George, "Who are you looking at?" Um and George said, "Well, I'm just at?" Um and George said, "Well, I'm just at?" Um and George said, "Well, I'm just looking above everybody because I feel looking above everybody because I feel looking above everybody because I feel like if I look at anyone, I'm going to like if I look at anyone, I'm going to like if I look at anyone, I'm going to get really distracted. Like there's get really distracted. Like there's get really distracted. Like there's going to be friends of mine in the going to be friends of mine in the going to be friends of mine in the audience and I don't want to have to audience and I don't want to have to audience and I don't want to have to look at them because I don't know how to look at them because I don't know how to look at them because I don't know how to do this." And then Scott said, "Okay, I do this." And then Scott said, "Okay, I do this." And then Scott said, "Okay, I want you to do it again and this time I want you to do it again and this time I want you to do it again and this time I want you to look people in the eyes and want you to look people in the eyes and want you to look people in the eyes and I want you to dig it, baby." And and I I want you to dig it, baby." And and I I want you to dig it, baby." And and I just really like that, the idea of just just really like that, the idea of just just really like that, the idea of just like look people in the eyes and this like look people in the eyes and this like look people in the eyes and this time dig it baby. And so that's what I time dig it baby. And so that's what I time dig it baby. And so that's what I have on my on my desk. And the the look have on my on my desk. And the the look have on my on my desk. And the the look people in the eyes is kind of um people in the eyes is kind of um people in the eyes is kind of um important too cuz it's just it's about important too cuz it's just it's about important too cuz it's just it's about being sincere and wanting to connect and being sincere and wanting to connect and being sincere and wanting to connect and and kind of taking a risk in in that and kind of taking a risk in in that and kind of taking a risk in in that way. So So that's kind of what I like to way. So So that's kind of what I like to way. So So that's kind of what I like to write by. write by. write by. >> I love that. I didn't actually know the >> I love that. I didn't actually know the >> I love that. I didn't actually know the full story even though you and I had full story even though you and I had full story even though you and I had talked about the sign uh over dinner uh talked about the sign uh over dinner uh talked about the sign uh over dinner uh several times. it so gives it a lot more several times. it so gives it a lot more several times. it so gives it a lot more color hearing the full story. And it color hearing the full story. And it color hearing the full story. And it feels to me like life advice not only feels to me like life advice not only feels to me like life advice not only for the creative act where you know we for the creative act where you know we for the creative act where you know we those of us who do creative work can those of us who do creative work can those of us who do creative work can fall prey I think to the sunk cost fall prey I think to the sunk cost fall prey I think to the sunk cost fallacy you know it's like oh I've been fallacy you know it's like oh I've been fallacy you know it's like oh I've been working on this for a while so I got to working on this for a while so I got to working on this for a while so I got to finish it even if it it's a slog I've finish it even if it it's a slog I've finish it even if it it's a slog I've been there but also for like life uh for been there but also for like life uh for been there but also for like life uh for all of life you know just whatever we're all of life you know just whatever we're all of life you know just whatever we're doing let's actually dig it let's doing let's actually dig it let's doing let's actually dig it let's actually be here for it. actually be here for it. actually be here for it. >> Absolutely. And just like a willingness >> Absolutely. And just like a willingness >> Absolutely. And just like a willingness to commit to things without any other to commit to things without any other to commit to things without any other voice in your head, you know, it's like voice in your head, you know, it's like voice in your head, you know, it's like the resentment and you know that that's the resentment and you know that that's the resentment and you know that that's there's a lot of stoicism in that. there's a lot of stoicism in that. there's a lot of stoicism in that. Senica writes a lot about it and as you Senica writes a lot about it and as you Senica writes a lot about it and as you know my book has a lot of stoicism in it know my book has a lot of stoicism in it know my book has a lot of stoicism in it but that's a really big thing that but that's a really big thing that but that's a really big thing that there's a lot of quotes about that that there's a lot of quotes about that that there's a lot of quotes about that that I really like which is just like you I really like which is just like you I really like which is just like you know show up and show up with just like know show up and show up with just like know show up and show up with just like pure gung-ho spirit. Uh, that's a a pure gung-ho spirit. Uh, that's a a pure gung-ho spirit. Uh, that's a a modern word. They didn't use gung-ho modern word. They didn't use gung-ho modern word. They didn't use gung-ho back then, but um but that's what it is. back then, but um but that's what it is. back then, but um but that's what it is. And I I do think it is a it it um it And I I do think it is a it it um it And I I do think it is a it it um it it's very simplifying, you know, in a it's very simplifying, you know, in a it's very simplifying, you know, in a way. You just kind of have to make the way. You just kind of have to make the way. You just kind of have to make the decision like I get to do this, you decision like I get to do this, you decision like I get to do this, you know? That's like a thing that I really know? That's like a thing that I really know? That's like a thing that I really like. Instead of I have to do this, you like. Instead of I have to do this, you like. Instead of I have to do this, you shift it to I get to do this. And that's shift it to I get to do this. And that's shift it to I get to do this. And that's like the kind of energy I really feel like the kind of energy I really feel like the kind of energy I really feel like one should bring to everything. Do like one should bring to everything. Do like one should bring to everything. Do you never fall back into a place that I you never fall back into a place that I you never fall back into a place that I and I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I and I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I and I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I I feel like too often I'm trudging I feel like too often I'm trudging I feel like too often I'm trudging through my to-do list and so I'm not through my to-do list and so I'm not through my to-do list and so I'm not digging it. I'm just doing it. Um, does digging it. I'm just doing it. Um, does digging it. I'm just doing it. Um, does that ever happen to you? And if so, how that ever happen to you? And if so, how that ever happen to you? And if so, how do you pull yourself out of trudging to do you pull yourself out of trudging to do you pull yourself out of trudging to digging? digging? digging? >> Well, well, to-do list is not a good >> Well, well, to-do list is not a good >> Well, well, to-do list is not a good example cuz I really love getting [ __ ] example cuz I really love getting [ __ ] example cuz I really love getting [ __ ] done, you know? Like I feel like in a done, you know? Like I feel like in a done, you know? Like I feel like in a way that's really what writing a novel way that's really what writing a novel way that's really what writing a novel is for me. It's just this like massive is for me. It's just this like massive is for me. It's just this like massive to-do list. So I really bring like fish to-do list. So I really bring like fish to-do list. So I really bring like fish joyful energy energy to like tasks, you joyful energy energy to like tasks, you joyful energy energy to like tasks, you know, and having to do anything. So know, and having to do anything. So know, and having to do anything. So to-do list is not the best thing. I to-do list is not the best thing. I to-do list is not the best thing. I think it might be more like working out think it might be more like working out think it might be more like working out or something, you know, for me. But but or something, you know, for me. But but or something, you know, for me. But but so anything that's just like planning so anything that's just like planning so anything that's just like planning you know that it could it making you know that it could it making you know that it could it making decisions planning coming up with some decisions planning coming up with some decisions planning coming up with some kind of scheme I find very creative kind of scheme I find very creative kind of scheme I find very creative actually you know like even a to-do list actually you know like even a to-do list actually you know like even a to-do list of oh how am I going to get that done of oh how am I going to get that done of oh how am I going to get that done who do I call first oh no maybe I should who do I call first oh no maybe I should who do I call first oh no maybe I should call the other person first before this call the other person first before this call the other person first before this you know that's like very happy for me you know that's like very happy for me you know that's like very happy for me to be doing all that and so that that's to be doing all that and so that that's to be doing all that and so that that's not really hard but I'd say I'd say the not really hard but I'd say I'd say the not really hard but I'd say I'd say the I'd say when I'm doing something I don't I'd say when I'm doing something I don't I'd say when I'm doing something I don't really like to do, I really try to to really like to do, I really try to to really like to do, I really try to to um think of it as as character building, um think of it as as character building, um think of it as as character building, you know, is is like I' I'm going to go you know, is is like I' I'm going to go you know, is is like I' I'm going to go through this and I'm going to be better through this and I'm going to be better through this and I'm going to be better on the other side and I will be stronger on the other side and I will be stronger on the other side and I will be stronger on the other side and kind of um on the other side and kind of um on the other side and kind of um grittier maybe on the other side. So grittier maybe on the other side. So grittier maybe on the other side. So that brings joy to it, I think. that brings joy to it, I think. that brings joy to it, I think. So what I'm hearing as a throughine in So what I'm hearing as a throughine in So what I'm hearing as a throughine in throughout this very young conversation, throughout this very young conversation, throughout this very young conversation, you know, that we're just starting is a you know, that we're just starting is a you know, that we're just starting is a is bringing cognitive reframes is bringing cognitive reframes is bringing cognitive reframes >> to stuff. >> to stuff. >> to stuff. >> Does that does that land for you? >> Does that does that land for you? >> Does that does that land for you? >> Oh, very much so. And in fact, there's >> Oh, very much so. And in fact, there's >> Oh, very much so. And in fact, there's something that I've been um that that something that I've been um that that something that I've been um that that we'll I'm sure talk about the stoicism we'll I'm sure talk about the stoicism we'll I'm sure talk about the stoicism that I'm very into, but um there was a that I'm very into, but um there was a that I'm very into, but um there was a quote that I was reading that it said quote that I was reading that it said quote that I was reading that it said that stoics try to bring the most useful that stoics try to bring the most useful that stoics try to bring the most useful perspective to a situation. And I really perspective to a situation. And I really perspective to a situation. And I really like that because I feel like yes, it's like that because I feel like yes, it's like that because I feel like yes, it's reframing. I feel like everything you reframing. I feel like everything you reframing. I feel like everything you can reframe and I really like the word can reframe and I really like the word can reframe and I really like the word useful cuz it's so simple and it's like useful cuz it's so simple and it's like useful cuz it's so simple and it's like oh yeah there's like a useful way of oh yeah there's like a useful way of oh yeah there's like a useful way of looking at something and there's not. looking at something and there's not. looking at something and there's not. Epictitus says there's like two handles Epictitus says there's like two handles Epictitus says there's like two handles um by which you can hold like a vase I I um by which you can hold like a vase I I um by which you can hold like a vase I I think is what he's referring to. Hold think is what he's referring to. Hold think is what he's referring to. Hold something and hold it by the right something and hold it by the right something and hold it by the right handle. And so I do think that if that handle. And so I do think that if that handle. And so I do think that if that that refraraming that refraraming that refraraming um is is useful, it it makes your um is is useful, it it makes your um is is useful, it it makes your existence better. And I think that what existence better. And I think that what existence better. And I think that what I really like about it is that it really I really like about it is that it really I really like about it is that it really to me activates my imagination. You to me activates my imagination. You to me activates my imagination. You know, if something like bad has know, if something like bad has know, if something like bad has happened, you know, quote unquote, or happened, you know, quote unquote, or happened, you know, quote unquote, or you know, I don't get what I want or you know, I don't get what I want or you know, I don't get what I want or there's a frustrating person. I actually there's a frustrating person. I actually there's a frustrating person. I actually think it's really fun to just get your think it's really fun to just get your think it's really fun to just get your imagination like fired up and just think imagination like fired up and just think imagination like fired up and just think like, oh, what's another way of looking like, oh, what's another way of looking like, oh, what's another way of looking at this again that I'm into my like at this again that I'm into my like at this again that I'm into my like to-do list energy and I'm then excited. to-do list energy and I'm then excited. to-do list energy and I'm then excited. I'm like like psyched about this I'm like like psyched about this I'm like like psyched about this situation like oh there's a way that's I situation like oh there's a way that's I situation like oh there's a way that's I can reframe this to make it like to make can reframe this to make it like to make can reframe this to make it like to make it positive. It is amazing the simple it positive. It is amazing the simple it positive. It is amazing the simple power of changing your perspective power of changing your perspective power of changing your perspective >> uh to alleviate uh dread uh anxiety, >> uh to alleviate uh dread uh anxiety, >> uh to alleviate uh dread uh anxiety, anger, whatever. anger, whatever. anger, whatever. >> Yeah, it really is. It's kind of crazy >> Yeah, it really is. It's kind of crazy >> Yeah, it really is. It's kind of crazy that it's so available, you know, at any that it's so available, you know, at any that it's so available, you know, at any given time. Like nothing's keeping you given time. Like nothing's keeping you given time. Like nothing's keeping you from doing it, you know, you're just from doing it, you know, you're just from doing it, you know, you're just 100% in control of it. It's just readily 100% in control of it. It's just readily 100% in control of it. It's just readily um there for the taking, you know, um there for the taking, you know, um there for the taking, you know, should should you choose. should should you choose. should should you choose. >> Yeah. I I think the biggest obstacle is >> Yeah. I I think the biggest obstacle is >> Yeah. I I think the biggest obstacle is remembering. Um I think the biggest remembering. Um I think the biggest remembering. Um I think the biggest problem in all of whatever you want to problem in all of whatever you want to problem in all of whatever you want to call it, personal growth, call it, personal growth, call it, personal growth, self-improvement, spiritual development, self-improvement, spiritual development, self-improvement, spiritual development, whatever. The biggest problem is whatever. The biggest problem is whatever. The biggest problem is remembering. You can remembering. You can remembering. You can >> listen to Maria hold forth on stoicism, >> listen to Maria hold forth on stoicism, >> listen to Maria hold forth on stoicism, which she's about to do. Um and then you which she's about to do. Um and then you which she's about to do. Um and then you know, you go through the rest of your know, you go through the rest of your know, you go through the rest of your day and you're pulled into the tides of day and you're pulled into the tides of day and you're pulled into the tides of forgetting and and then a ripe forgetting and and then a ripe forgetting and and then a ripe opportunity comes up for reframing and opportunity comes up for reframing and opportunity comes up for reframing and you just forget to do it you just forget to do it you just forget to do it >> completely. And and I think that that's >> completely. And and I think that that's >> completely. And and I think that that's why practice is really important, you why practice is really important, you why practice is really important, you know, and I think everything know, and I think everything know, and I think everything like, you know, meditation is a practice like, you know, meditation is a practice like, you know, meditation is a practice and I have a stoic practice and I I and I have a stoic practice and I I and I have a stoic practice and I I think that without a practice, it's just think that without a practice, it's just think that without a practice, it's just a, you know, it's just like something a, you know, it's just like something a, you know, it's just like something that makes you like all psyched to uh that makes you like all psyched to uh that makes you like all psyched to uh change your life. I used to I used to change your life. I used to I used to change your life. I used to I used to always say like like um God my life is I always say like like um God my life is I always say like like um God my life is I I heard something that changed my life I heard something that changed my life I heard something that changed my life and now I've forgotten it. You know, and now I've forgotten it. You know, and now I've forgotten it. You know, it's like and I think that's what you go it's like and I think that's what you go it's like and I think that's what you go through if you don't just go through through if you don't just go through through if you don't just go through almost like the drudgery of practice and almost like the drudgery of practice and almost like the drudgery of practice and that's what it's for, right? So you can that's what it's for, right? So you can that's what it's for, right? So you can internalize it and that and that this internalize it and that and that this internalize it and that and that this stuff starts to become second nature or stuff starts to become second nature or stuff starts to become second nature or the first maybe not the first response the first maybe not the first response the first maybe not the first response cuz sometimes that's just visceral, you cuz sometimes that's just visceral, you cuz sometimes that's just visceral, you know, of just dread or shame or panic or know, of just dread or shame or panic or know, of just dread or shame or panic or whatever it is, but maybe like very whatever it is, but maybe like very whatever it is, but maybe like very quickly afterwards you can go to the the quickly afterwards you can go to the the quickly afterwards you can go to the the reframing thing and it almost feels reframing thing and it almost feels reframing thing and it almost feels natural. I love what you're saying and natural. I love what you're saying and natural. I love what you're saying and yes, I've been humbled so often when uh yes, I've been humbled so often when uh yes, I've been humbled so often when uh taking the Buddhist or stoic or taking the Buddhist or stoic or taking the Buddhist or stoic or psychologically wise approach is the psychologically wise approach is the psychologically wise approach is the eighth reflex on my part um after you eighth reflex on my part um after you eighth reflex on my part um after you know um a million other less know um a million other less know um a million other less constructive roots. But at least it's constructive roots. But at least it's constructive roots. But at least it's >> and damage. Yeah. And the damage is >> and damage. Yeah. And the damage is >> and damage. Yeah. And the damage is done, right? And now it's like, oh done, right? And now it's like, oh done, right? And now it's like, oh Jesus, now all these apology emails I Jesus, now all these apology emails I Jesus, now all these apology emails I have to write and all of this [ __ ] you have to write and all of this [ __ ] you have to write and all of this [ __ ] you know? But it's so I almost think on just know? But it's so I almost think on just know? But it's so I almost think on just a basic level that's why you should do a basic level that's why you should do a basic level that's why you should do it. It just like saves you a lot of it. It just like saves you a lot of it. It just like saves you a lot of time. time. time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know is is um is is the I I have a >> You know is is um is is the I I have a >> You know is is um is is the I I have a phrase that I like that I say the low phrase that I like that I say the low phrase that I like that I say the low road always dogs you know is it's just road always dogs you know is it's just road always dogs you know is it's just it just makes life a lot easier not to it just makes life a lot easier not to it just makes life a lot easier not to have taken the low road because it will have taken the low road because it will have taken the low road because it will stay with you. stay with you. stay with you. >> Yep. Damn it. Um the lower road can be >> Yep. Damn it. Um the lower road can be >> Yep. Damn it. Um the lower road can be really fun for really fun for really fun for >> Oh my god. you delicious nanoc >> Oh my god. you delicious nanoc >> Oh my god. you delicious nanoc >> the best. >> the best. >> the best. >> Um, all right, Maria. So, you're you're >> Um, all right, Maria. So, you're you're >> Um, all right, Maria. So, you're you're let's talk about stoicism. So, the the let's talk about stoicism. So, the the let's talk about stoicism. So, the the the the protagonist in your new novel, the the protagonist in your new novel, the the protagonist in your new novel, which again is called Go Gentle and is which again is called Go Gentle and is which again is called Go Gentle and is phenomenal. Um, phenomenal. Um, phenomenal. Um, uh is a uh uh an expert in stoicism and uh is a uh uh an expert in stoicism and uh is a uh uh an expert in stoicism and and has um written books about it and is and has um written books about it and is and has um written books about it and is a teacher of it. Um, and and this is a teacher of it. Um, and and this is a teacher of it. Um, and and this is based, as I understand it, in your own based, as I understand it, in your own based, as I understand it, in your own deep personal interest in stoicism. So, deep personal interest in stoicism. So, deep personal interest in stoicism. So, I'd be interested in hearing your story. I'd be interested in hearing your story. I'd be interested in hearing your story. How did you get interested in stoicism? How did you get interested in stoicism? How did you get interested in stoicism? And and what what is it for those of us And and what what is it for those of us And and what what is it for those of us who are uninitiated? who are uninitiated? who are uninitiated? >> Well, uh, okay. So, I got into stoicism >> Well, uh, okay. So, I got into stoicism >> Well, uh, okay. So, I got into stoicism maybe um 12 years ago or so, and I I maybe um 12 years ago or so, and I I maybe um 12 years ago or so, and I I think I just read about it in the New think I just read about it in the New think I just read about it in the New York Times, and I read a book about it. York Times, and I read a book about it. York Times, and I read a book about it. Uh William Irvine wrote a book um called Uh William Irvine wrote a book um called Uh William Irvine wrote a book um called I don't know, we'll we'll we can look it I don't know, we'll we'll we can look it I don't know, we'll we'll we can look it up in the show notes or whatever. The up in the show notes or whatever. The up in the show notes or whatever. The Art of Living. Art of Living. Art of Living. >> He's been on the show, so I'll put I'll >> He's been on the show, so I'll put I'll >> He's been on the show, so I'll put I'll put the episode, right? I'll put that put the episode, right? I'll put that put the episode, right? I'll put that episode. episode. episode. >> Okay. The Guide to the Good Life. I >> Okay. The Guide to the Good Life. I >> Okay. The Guide to the Good Life. I think that's his William Irvine. Okay. think that's his William Irvine. Okay. think that's his William Irvine. Okay. So, it's just this really great kind of So, it's just this really great kind of So, it's just this really great kind of intro to stoicism. And I read it and was intro to stoicism. And I read it and was intro to stoicism. And I read it and was really turned on and and I think that really turned on and and I think that really turned on and and I think that what turned me on initially was this what turned me on initially was this what turned me on initially was this perspective thing, you know, which was perspective thing, you know, which was perspective thing, you know, which was which it but I'd say the the basis of which it but I'd say the the basis of which it but I'd say the the basis of it, as I understand it, is that, you it, as I understand it, is that, you it, as I understand it, is that, you know, there's things that you can know, there's things that you can know, there's things that you can control. There's things that you can't control. There's things that you can't control. There's things that you can't control. your job is to only focus on control. your job is to only focus on control. your job is to only focus on what you can control and that's virtue what you can control and that's virtue what you can control and that's virtue and everything else you just cheerfully and everything else you just cheerfully and everything else you just cheerfully throw over to fate. And so that sounds, throw over to fate. And so that sounds, throw over to fate. And so that sounds, you know, suspiciously like um the AA you know, suspiciously like um the AA you know, suspiciously like um the AA serenity prayer, you know, and a lot of serenity prayer, you know, and a lot of serenity prayer, you know, and a lot of other kind of systems. Um and it was other kind of systems. Um and it was other kind of systems. Um and it was formulated 300 BC, you know, by the formulated 300 BC, you know, by the formulated 300 BC, you know, by the Greeks. And it's kind of crazy that that Greeks. And it's kind of crazy that that Greeks. And it's kind of crazy that that it's so old and it really is you know it's so old and it really is you know it's so old and it really is you know only focus on what you can control. And only focus on what you can control. And only focus on what you can control. And um you know cognitive behavioral therapy um you know cognitive behavioral therapy um you know cognitive behavioral therapy is you know is very much rooted in is you know is very much rooted in is you know is very much rooted in stoicism. And so that's that's that I I stoicism. And so that's that's that I I stoicism. And so that's that's that I I think for anybody in any program the think for anybody in any program the think for anybody in any program the first time you hear something like that first time you hear something like that first time you hear something like that like or let them write the mail you know like or let them write the mail you know like or let them write the mail you know just like let it like whatever is going just like let it like whatever is going just like let it like whatever is going on whatever people whatever is going to on whatever people whatever is going to on whatever people whatever is going to happen in the outside world it's not happen in the outside world it's not happen in the outside world it's not your business just concern yourself with your business just concern yourself with your business just concern yourself with yourself it's a it's really energizing yourself it's a it's really energizing yourself it's a it's really energizing and it's a super turnon you know and and it's a super turnon you know and and it's a super turnon you know and again it's one of those things where again it's one of those things where again it's one of those things where you're like yeah my life is going to be you're like yeah my life is going to be you're like yeah my life is going to be different whatever you know I'm now different whatever you know I'm now different whatever you know I'm now going to live this like really happy going to live this like really happy going to live this like really happy superior life and so uh I started superior life and so uh I started superior life and so uh I started reading the stoics themselves um Senica reading the stoics themselves um Senica reading the stoics themselves um Senica Epictitus and uh Marcus Aurelius and I Epictitus and uh Marcus Aurelius and I Epictitus and uh Marcus Aurelius and I just uh started kind of invented this just uh started kind of invented this just uh started kind of invented this program for myself because I didn't know program for myself because I didn't know program for myself because I didn't know anyone who was a stoic or anyone who was anyone who was a stoic or anyone who was anyone who was a stoic or anyone who was into it and so I just started every day into it and so I just started every day into it and so I just started every day sitting down and reading stoicism and sitting down and reading stoicism and sitting down and reading stoicism and figuring out my philosophy of life and figuring out my philosophy of life and figuring out my philosophy of life and writing it down and doing these journal writing it down and doing these journal writing it down and doing these journal exercises that I kind of created for exercises that I kind of created for exercises that I kind of created for myself. And that's how I start every myself. And that's how I start every myself. And that's how I start every day. And it's really fun, you know. It's day. And it's really fun, you know. It's day. And it's really fun, you know. It's like it's actually very hard to turn like it's actually very hard to turn like it's actually very hard to turn myself away from it, you know. And then myself away from it, you know. And then myself away from it, you know. And then I read some of the I don't know. I just I read some of the I don't know. I just I read some of the I don't know. I just like putter around with my stoicism and like putter around with my stoicism and like putter around with my stoicism and get very happy and and focused, you get very happy and and focused, you get very happy and and focused, you know, and it's like to to me um it know, and it's like to to me um it know, and it's like to to me um it really helps. One of the things I do, really helps. One of the things I do, really helps. One of the things I do, it's like clarify your purpose. That's a it's like clarify your purpose. That's a it's like clarify your purpose. That's a big thing in stoicism is just like what big thing in stoicism is just like what big thing in stoicism is just like what you know what um you know what um you know what um what am I going to do that day? What is what am I going to do that day? What is what am I going to do that day? What is today about? What virtue? And the word today about? What virtue? And the word today about? What virtue? And the word virtue is kind of problematic because it virtue is kind of problematic because it virtue is kind of problematic because it sounds churchy or whatever, but it's the sounds churchy or whatever, but it's the sounds churchy or whatever, but it's the four virtues. Um I think they're Plato four virtues. Um I think they're Plato four virtues. Um I think they're Plato is um wisdom, courage, justice, and is um wisdom, courage, justice, and is um wisdom, courage, justice, and temperance. So it's not judgy. It's just temperance. So it's not judgy. It's just temperance. So it's not judgy. It's just about your own character. And so about your own character. And so about your own character. And so um so anyway, so then I got really into um so anyway, so then I got really into um so anyway, so then I got really into it and I'm still into it. It's kept it's it and I'm still into it. It's kept it's it and I'm still into it. It's kept it's kept alive in me for all these years. kept alive in me for all these years. kept alive in me for all these years. So the the the the turn on here, I just So the the the the turn on here, I just So the the the the turn on here, I just want to dig into this is want to dig into this is want to dig into this is >> there's something, if I'm hearing you >> there's something, if I'm hearing you >> there's something, if I'm hearing you correctly, really invigorating and correctly, really invigorating and correctly, really invigorating and empowering empowering empowering about focusing on what you can control about focusing on what you can control about focusing on what you can control and letting everything else fall to the and letting everything else fall to the and letting everything else fall to the wayside. wayside. wayside. >> Exactly. and and and the more you kind >> Exactly. and and and the more you kind >> Exactly. and and and the more you kind of study it uh and learn about it, the of study it uh and learn about it, the of study it uh and learn about it, the more wisdom you see in it, you know, and more wisdom you see in it, you know, and more wisdom you see in it, you know, and the more you really see that there's the more you really see that there's the more you really see that there's actually nothing outside of yourself you actually nothing outside of yourself you actually nothing outside of yourself you can control when you really start can control when you really start can control when you really start looking at it that way. So, it really looking at it that way. So, it really looking at it that way. So, it really positively reinforces things. And then positively reinforces things. And then positively reinforces things. And then there's the um yeah, there's the there's the um yeah, there's the there's the um yeah, there's the reframing that's fun, you know, that reframing that's fun, you know, that reframing that's fun, you know, that that I think is is is good and easy. And that I think is is is good and easy. And that I think is is is good and easy. And then pretty soon it it's I I mean you then pretty soon it it's I I mean you then pretty soon it it's I I mean you you've gone through this with with your you've gone through this with with your you've gone through this with with your meditation practice is you'll be in a meditation practice is you'll be in a meditation practice is you'll be in a situation and you'll just kind of notice situation and you'll just kind of notice situation and you'll just kind of notice that you have just experienced it in a that you have just experienced it in a that you have just experienced it in a very in in not very maybe even a very in in not very maybe even a very in in not very maybe even a slightly different way than you might slightly different way than you might slightly different way than you might have a year before where it just doesn't have a year before where it just doesn't have a year before where it just doesn't stress you out or cause you anxiety and stress you out or cause you anxiety and stress you out or cause you anxiety and you're like oh wow I think something you're like oh wow I think something you're like oh wow I think something must have worked along the way. I don't must have worked along the way. I don't must have worked along the way. I don't quite know how, but some there's been a quite know how, but some there's been a quite know how, but some there's been a shift and I I have a much more peaceful shift and I I have a much more peaceful shift and I I have a much more peaceful existence. existence. existence. >> Tell me about the this morning p >> Tell me about the this morning p >> Tell me about the this morning p practice that you do. Can you just practice that you do. Can you just practice that you do. Can you just really walk us through because it sounds really walk us through because it sounds really walk us through because it sounds like you've invented it and so there like you've invented it and so there like you've invented it and so there isn't some isn't some isn't some >> workbook people can buy. So, can you >> workbook people can buy. So, can you >> workbook people can buy. So, can you just give us the steps in case we want just give us the steps in case we want just give us the steps in case we want to replicate it for ourselves? to replicate it for ourselves? to replicate it for ourselves? >> Yes. Oh, shoot. I wish I brought my >> Yes. Oh, shoot. I wish I brought my >> Yes. Oh, shoot. I wish I brought my stoic book with me. I almost did. But um stoic book with me. I almost did. But um stoic book with me. I almost did. But um it's and and so it's this little book it's and and so it's this little book it's and and so it's this little book that's now about 60 pages long that I've that's now about 60 pages long that I've that's now about 60 pages long that I've rewritten about 15 or 20 times that I rewritten about 15 or 20 times that I rewritten about 15 or 20 times that I keep writing and improving and then keep writing and improving and then keep writing and improving and then going back to Kinko's and having them going back to Kinko's and having them going back to Kinko's and having them print up a new one and put a little coil print up a new one and put a little coil print up a new one and put a little coil binder on it and then do it, you know, binder on it and then do it, you know, binder on it and then do it, you know, when it gets too marked up, I I make a when it gets too marked up, I I make a when it gets too marked up, I I make a new one. And so I start out by by new one. And so I start out by by new one. And so I start out by by writing down my philosophy of life which writing down my philosophy of life which writing down my philosophy of life which is um my philosophy of life is to bring is um my philosophy of life is to bring is um my philosophy of life is to bring my actions, desires and so I say no my my actions, desires and so I say no my my actions, desires and so I say no my goal for today is to bring my actions, goal for today is to bring my actions, goal for today is to bring my actions, desires and thoughts into line with my desires and thoughts into line with my desires and thoughts into line with my philosophy of life. My philosophy of philosophy of life. My philosophy of philosophy of life. My philosophy of life is virtue equals freedom. Virtue is life is virtue equals freedom. Virtue is life is virtue equals freedom. Virtue is the only good. its pursuit is the only the only good. its pursuit is the only the only good. its pursuit is the only guarantee of abiding good cheer, secure guarantee of abiding good cheer, secure guarantee of abiding good cheer, secure joy and a tranquil mind. So that took joy and a tranquil mind. So that took joy and a tranquil mind. So that took like 10 years for me to write. Okay. I like 10 years for me to write. Okay. I like 10 years for me to write. Okay. I So like that's my philosophy of life. So like that's my philosophy of life. So like that's my philosophy of life. And so I write that down every day to And so I write that down every day to And so I write that down every day to remind myself. And then I go to the four remind myself. And then I go to the four remind myself. And then I go to the four virtues and I have um you know virtues and I have um you know virtues and I have um you know adjectives listed next to the virtues. adjectives listed next to the virtues. adjectives listed next to the virtues. And if it's like wisdom, I'll go to one And if it's like wisdom, I'll go to one And if it's like wisdom, I'll go to one of my adjectives next to wisdom, you of my adjectives next to wisdom, you of my adjectives next to wisdom, you know. um which is like you know sound know. um which is like you know sound know. um which is like you know sound judgment or something because wisdom judgment or something because wisdom judgment or something because wisdom really is about just separating what you really is about just separating what you really is about just separating what you can control from what you can control. can control from what you can control. can control from what you can control. Um, and then Um, and then Um, and then justice is about like there's a lot of justice is about like there's a lot of justice is about like there's a lot of kind of meta in that, you know, it's kind of meta in that, you know, it's kind of meta in that, you know, it's about friendliness, benevolence. It's about friendliness, benevolence. It's about friendliness, benevolence. It's not about like being a justice warrior. not about like being a justice warrior. not about like being a justice warrior. It's about just like being a good human It's about just like being a good human It's about just like being a good human being, you know, to others. Then there's being, you know, to others. Then there's being, you know, to others. Then there's courage, which is like about work. Um, courage, which is like about work. Um, courage, which is like about work. Um, and it's like love of work. Um there's a and it's like love of work. Um there's a and it's like love of work. Um there's a lot about like not falling in with the lot about like not falling in with the lot about like not falling in with the mob, you know, about like moral courage, mob, you know, about like moral courage, mob, you know, about like moral courage, um about endurance. um about endurance. um about endurance. And then under temperance, And then under temperance, And then under temperance, it's about kind of discipline, it's about kind of discipline, it's about kind of discipline, patience, speaking less, patience, speaking less, patience, speaking less, um speaking kindly. So, I work I kind of um speaking kindly. So, I work I kind of um speaking kindly. So, I work I kind of pick little subcategories of virtues pick little subcategories of virtues pick little subcategories of virtues that I need to work on that day, you that I need to work on that day, you that I need to work on that day, you know, and then I kind of I journal all know, and then I kind of I journal all know, and then I kind of I journal all this out. I journal it out and then it's this out. I journal it out and then it's this out. I journal it out and then it's like clarify my purpose and I figure out like clarify my purpose and I figure out like clarify my purpose and I figure out what my purpose is that day. And then what my purpose is that day. And then what my purpose is that day. And then there's like a list of prompts. Today there's like a list of prompts. Today there's like a list of prompts. Today I did um I did um I did um I think today I did I get to do this. I think today I did I get to do this. I think today I did I get to do this. That's what I did. I was like, I get to That's what I did. I was like, I get to That's what I did. I was like, I get to go and talk about my book with Dan. go and talk about my book with Dan. go and talk about my book with Dan. Like, this is really amazing that I get Like, this is really amazing that I get Like, this is really amazing that I get to do this, you know? Like, I love Dan. to do this, you know? Like, I love Dan. to do this, you know? Like, I love Dan. Like, there's a podcast studio down the Like, there's a podcast studio down the Like, there's a podcast studio down the street in my publishers's house that's street in my publishers's house that's street in my publishers's house that's all set up, you know, that's like all all set up, you know, that's like all all set up, you know, that's like all this good stuff is happening and it's this good stuff is happening and it's this good stuff is happening and it's about not like, oh, [ __ ] I got to go do about not like, oh, [ __ ] I got to go do about not like, oh, [ __ ] I got to go do this thing with Dan and you know, it's this thing with Dan and you know, it's this thing with Dan and you know, it's like cuz it could I love you, but you like cuz it could I love you, but you like cuz it could I love you, but you know what I'm saying? We all can just know what I'm saying? We all can just know what I'm saying? We all can just slide into that. So it's basically just slide into that. So it's basically just slide into that. So it's basically just like reframing it so it's really like reframing it so it's really like reframing it so it's really positive and then I'll read the Stoics positive and then I'll read the Stoics positive and then I'll read the Stoics and I you know and then I read other and I you know and then I read other and I you know and then I read other philosophy. I'm reading some Rouso now. philosophy. I'm reading some Rouso now. philosophy. I'm reading some Rouso now. I'm trying to I'm not trying to but I I'm trying to I'm not trying to but I I'm trying to I'm not trying to but I enjoy branching out of it. Um and uh and enjoy branching out of it. Um and uh and enjoy branching out of it. Um and uh and yeah then and then I'm like ready to yeah then and then I'm like ready to yeah then and then I'm like ready to write. write. write. >> You know what can be good for your brain >> You know what can be good for your brain >> You know what can be good for your brain health? Learning a new language. health? Learning a new language. health? Learning a new language. Engaging in mentally demanding tasks Engaging in mentally demanding tasks Engaging in mentally demanding tasks like language learning helps build like language learning helps build like language learning helps build what's called cognitive reserve. Having what's called cognitive reserve. Having what's called cognitive reserve. Having that reserve can help your brain that reserve can help your brain that reserve can help your brain function better for longer, even as it function better for longer, even as it function better for longer, even as it ages. Which brings me to one of our ages. 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I just want to for for for anybody who wants to do a for for for anybody who wants to do a for for for anybody who wants to do a bootleg version of this for themselves. bootleg version of this for themselves. bootleg version of this for themselves. It sounds like roughly speaking the the It sounds like roughly speaking the the It sounds like roughly speaking the the the exercise begins by um uh restating the exercise begins by um uh restating the exercise begins by um uh restating what your what your what your life philosophy is and then the next life philosophy is and then the next life philosophy is and then the next click deeper is how does that apply to click deeper is how does that apply to click deeper is how does that apply to what you're going to do today. what you're going to do today. what you're going to do today. >> Yes. And then you uh do some reading um >> Yes. And then you uh do some reading um >> Yes. And then you uh do some reading um what what might be cheesily called what what might be cheesily called what what might be cheesily called inspirational reading of stoic inspirational reading of stoic inspirational reading of stoic >> stoic philosophers etc etc. And then it >> stoic philosophers etc etc. And then it >> stoic philosophers etc etc. And then it culminates in some sort of journal culminates in some sort of journal culminates in some sort of journal prompt around how what prompt around how what prompt around how what how how am I going to back to back to how how am I going to back to back to how how am I going to back to back to today. How am I going to apply one today. How am I going to apply one today. How am I going to apply one aspect of this very rich philosophical aspect of this very rich philosophical aspect of this very rich philosophical tradition to what's on my docket for tradition to what's on my docket for tradition to what's on my docket for today? Did I roughly restate that today? Did I roughly restate that today? Did I roughly restate that question? question? question? >> Yeah. No, that's exactly it. And then >> Yeah. No, that's exactly it. And then >> Yeah. No, that's exactly it. And then you're like, let's go. Let's go do this you're like, let's go. Let's go do this you're like, let's go. Let's go do this thing. You know, and and and and what's thing. You know, and and and and what's thing. You know, and and and and what's really good is I've set See, here's the really good is I've set See, here's the really good is I've set See, here's the important thing is that I've set it up important thing is that I've set it up important thing is that I've set it up so that every single thing that I'm that so that every single thing that I'm that so that every single thing that I'm that I set out to do is 100% in my control. I set out to do is 100% in my control. I set out to do is 100% in my control. you know, like like for instance, when I you know, like like for instance, when I you know, like like for instance, when I was coming down here, like what I I was coming down here, like what I I was coming down here, like what I I wasn't it wasn't like uh what I wanted wasn't it wasn't like uh what I wanted wasn't it wasn't like uh what I wanted to do today, it wasn't like I want Dan to do today, it wasn't like I want Dan to do today, it wasn't like I want Dan to love me. I want to sell a million to love me. I want to sell a million to love me. I want to sell a million books on the podcast. I want to become books on the podcast. I want to become books on the podcast. I want to become like an influencer. It was like I want like an influencer. It was like I want like an influencer. It was like I want to be on time. I I don't want to to be on time. I I don't want to to be on time. I I don't want to interrupt. I feel like I have. So, I'm interrupt. I feel like I have. So, I'm interrupt. I feel like I have. So, I'm going to go into a shame shame spiral, going to go into a shame shame spiral, going to go into a shame shame spiral, but try not to interrupt. Try not to but try not to interrupt. Try not to but try not to interrupt. Try not to swear. And those were like the only swear. And those were like the only swear. And those were like the only three things I I really intended to do three things I I really intended to do three things I I really intended to do today was was to right were those three today was was to right were those three today was was to right were those three things. And and I'm like maybe do a B+ things. And and I'm like maybe do a B+ things. And and I'm like maybe do a B+ or something. But uh it was like I or something. But uh it was like I or something. But uh it was like I wanted to be professional like love of wanted to be professional like love of wanted to be professional like love of work. I wanted to show up with just like work. I wanted to show up with just like work. I wanted to show up with just like my full self. And so that's what's my full self. And so that's what's my full self. And so that's what's really fun about it is it's it's not really fun about it is it's it's not really fun about it is it's it's not like you you set out for the day to like like you you set out for the day to like like you you set out for the day to like write a best-selling novel, you know? it write a best-selling novel, you know? it write a best-selling novel, you know? it it's because you can't control that. You it's because you can't control that. You it's because you can't control that. You set out for the day to do like a good set out for the day to do like a good set out for the day to do like a good day of work and to focus and to day of work and to focus and to day of work and to focus and to concentrate and then not to just like concentrate and then not to just like concentrate and then not to just like waste your time on the internet and take waste your time on the internet and take waste your time on the internet and take naps and things like that. It it's so naps and things like that. It it's so naps and things like that. It it's so that's what's kind of so fun about it that's what's kind of so fun about it that's what's kind of so fun about it and that and that it's like you only and that and that it's like you only and that and that it's like you only desire what's in your control. That's desire what's in your control. That's desire what's in your control. That's like a really big thing and that's like like a really big thing and that's like like a really big thing and that's like actually quite radical is to shift. And actually quite radical is to shift. And actually quite radical is to shift. And that's why in my in my um in the the the that's why in my in my um in the the the that's why in my in my um in the the the top half of my philosophy of life is top half of my philosophy of life is top half of my philosophy of life is it's like to to to line up my desires, it's like to to to line up my desires, it's like to to to line up my desires, thoughts, and actions. Those are the thoughts, and actions. Those are the thoughts, and actions. Those are the three disciplines I think of stoicism. three disciplines I think of stoicism. three disciplines I think of stoicism. It's thoughts, desires, and action. But It's thoughts, desires, and action. But It's thoughts, desires, and action. But desire is really the big one, which desire is really the big one, which desire is really the big one, which which would be a very good segue to my which would be a very good segue to my which would be a very good segue to my book and my character, but I feel like book and my character, but I feel like book and my character, but I feel like you want to keep talking about stoicism. you want to keep talking about stoicism. you want to keep talking about stoicism. So we can put a pin in the segue. So we can put a pin in the segue. So we can put a pin in the segue. >> No, no, no. I I want to follow your lead >> No, no, no. I I want to follow your lead >> No, no, no. I I want to follow your lead here. Um Okay. here. Um Okay. here. Um Okay. >> Because actually I think it doesn't take >> Because actually I think it doesn't take >> Because actually I think it doesn't take us far field from stoicism because us far field from stoicism because us far field from stoicism because because your your book uh start your because your your book uh start your because your your book uh start your protagonist starts the book in act one protagonist starts the book in act one protagonist starts the book in act one in this um in this um in this um >> uh in this state of feeling like she's >> uh in this state of feeling like she's >> uh in this state of feeling like she's got it all figured out and in many ways got it all figured out and in many ways got it all figured out and in many ways she does. she does. she does. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And and Right. And she's and I just >> And and Right. And she's and I just >> And and Right. And she's and I just interrupted. There we go. So, it's like interrupted. There we go. So, it's like interrupted. There we go. So, it's like now I've just Okay. Um, but that's See, now I've just Okay. Um, but that's See, now I've just Okay. Um, but that's See, you're a friend. That's the problem is I you're a friend. That's the problem is I you're a friend. That's the problem is I feel like if I didn't know you, I feel like if I didn't know you, I feel like if I didn't know you, I friends apparently I steamroll over and friends apparently I steamroll over and friends apparently I steamroll over and I don't even care. That's like what it I don't even care. That's like what it I don't even care. That's like what it is to be a friend of mine. Um, but but is to be a friend of mine. Um, but but is to be a friend of mine. Um, but but so she basically has figured out that so she basically has figured out that so she basically has figured out that the key to life is to desire only what the key to life is to desire only what the key to life is to desire only what she has. You know, her name is Adora she has. You know, her name is Adora she has. You know, her name is Adora Hazard. She's a recently divorced um u Hazard. She's a recently divorced um u Hazard. She's a recently divorced um u woman who's moved to New York with her woman who's moved to New York with her woman who's moved to New York with her teenage daughter. um ve very similar to teenage daughter. um ve very similar to teenage daughter. um ve very similar to my story uh lives on the Upper West Side my story uh lives on the Upper West Side my story uh lives on the Upper West Side and uh and she has kind of figured out and uh and she has kind of figured out and uh and she has kind of figured out that if you desire what you have then that if you desire what you have then that if you desire what you have then you're happy. And so she's set up this you're happy. And so she's set up this you're happy. And so she's set up this really fantastic life for herself. She's really fantastic life for herself. She's really fantastic life for herself. She's single. She kind of assumes that she'll single. She kind of assumes that she'll single. She kind of assumes that she'll never find love because she's kind of never find love because she's kind of never find love because she's kind of later in life. So she doesn't desire later in life. So she doesn't desire later in life. So she doesn't desire love. She um desires the company of her love. She um desires the company of her love. She um desires the company of her friends and she lives on the the um the friends and she lives on the the um the friends and she lives on the the um the seventh floor of an apartment building seventh floor of an apartment building seventh floor of an apartment building and a lot of other single women live in and a lot of other single women live in and a lot of other single women live in the other apartments and they call the other apartments and they call the other apartments and they call themselves the coven and they just like themselves the coven and they just like themselves the coven and they just like it's like the best smartest people her it's like the best smartest people her it's like the best smartest people her favorite people in the world and they favorite people in the world and they favorite people in the world and they kind of share Netflix passwords and do kind of share Netflix passwords and do kind of share Netflix passwords and do things and the idea is when they get old things and the idea is when they get old things and the idea is when they get old they'll all just like take care of each they'll all just like take care of each they'll all just like take care of each other. Um, and and she has this she's other. Um, and and she has this she's other. Um, and and she has this she's she's the moral tutor to a a a very she's the moral tutor to a a a very she's the moral tutor to a a a very wealthy eccentric family who lives on wealthy eccentric family who lives on wealthy eccentric family who lives on Fifth Avenue and particularly to their Fifth Avenue and particularly to their Fifth Avenue and particularly to their twin boys. And so after they go to their twin boys. And so after they go to their twin boys. And so after they go to their private school and they're wearing their private school and they're wearing their private school and they're wearing their uniforms and they uh they come back with uniforms and they uh they come back with uniforms and they uh they come back with all their va really terrible like status all their va really terrible like status all their va really terrible like status obsessed values, she has to sit there obsessed values, she has to sit there obsessed values, she has to sit there and kind of talk them through it and try and kind of talk them through it and try and kind of talk them through it and try to like be an u do moral training for to like be an u do moral training for to like be an u do moral training for them. And so she's quite you know them. And so she's quite you know them. And so she's quite you know pleased with herself I should say which pleased with herself I should say which pleased with herself I should say which which um is kind of one of the digs which um is kind of one of the digs which um is kind of one of the digs against philosophers. You know, it's against philosophers. You know, it's against philosophers. You know, it's like the arrogance of the philosopher. like the arrogance of the philosopher. like the arrogance of the philosopher. You know, it's like the Christians, You know, it's like the Christians, You know, it's like the Christians, that's how they kind of um what when that's how they kind of um what when that's how they kind of um what when Christianity came along, they would talk Christianity came along, they would talk Christianity came along, they would talk about how, you know, philosophers who about how, you know, philosophers who about how, you know, philosophers who were kind of running rampant until were kind of running rampant until were kind of running rampant until Christianity were uh you know, believed Christianity were uh you know, believed Christianity were uh you know, believed that reason could solve everything. You that reason could solve everything. You that reason could solve everything. You know, you didn't need faith. And so they know, you didn't need faith. And so they know, you didn't need faith. And so they were so they got a I guess a bad rap were so they got a I guess a bad rap were so they got a I guess a bad rap because they didn't believe in faith. because they didn't believe in faith. because they didn't believe in faith. they just thought, "No, I have they just thought, "No, I have they just thought, "No, I have everything I need to solve all the everything I need to solve all the everything I need to solve all the problems." And so there was kind of an problems." And so there was kind of an problems." And so there was kind of an arrogance to it. And um even though arrogance to it. And um even though arrogance to it. And um even though Adore is not particularly arrogant, I Adore is not particularly arrogant, I Adore is not particularly arrogant, I did just kind of write it just with a did just kind of write it just with a did just kind of write it just with a little kind of flavor of being pleased little kind of flavor of being pleased little kind of flavor of being pleased with herself. And so um so then what with herself. And so um so then what with herself. And so um so then what happens is early on she meets a handsome happens is early on she meets a handsome happens is early on she meets a handsome stranger at the ballet, a man at the stranger at the ballet, a man at the stranger at the ballet, a man at the ballet. Um and she and and he pulls her ballet. Um and she and and he pulls her ballet. Um and she and and he pulls her into this kind of international mystery into this kind of international mystery into this kind of international mystery and and Adora kind of realizes that and and Adora kind of realizes that and and Adora kind of realizes that maybe um like desire is nothing uh is maybe um like desire is nothing uh is maybe um like desire is nothing uh is that she hasn't snuffed it out as well that she hasn't snuffed it out as well that she hasn't snuffed it out as well as she thought she did. you know that in as she thought she did. you know that in as she thought she did. you know that in fact there is something in like a flame fact there is something in like a flame fact there is something in like a flame that is burning inside of her and this that is burning inside of her and this that is burning inside of her and this guy awakes it and then this whole plot guy awakes it and then this whole plot guy awakes it and then this whole plot awakes it and then we kind of go back awakes it and then we kind of go back awakes it and then we kind of go back and learn about what happened to her and and learn about what happened to her and and learn about what happened to her and why she kind of turned to stoicism and why she kind of turned to stoicism and why she kind of turned to stoicism and uh why like character became very uh why like character became very uh why like character became very important to her and the story she'd important to her and the story she'd important to her and the story she'd been telling herself and so it it's all been telling herself and so it it's all been telling herself and so it it's all you know my books are crazy it's a you know my books are crazy it's a you know my books are crazy it's a pretty crazy plot um but but it's very pretty crazy plot um but but it's very pretty crazy plot um but but it's very very philosophyheavy which is my this very philosophyheavy which is my this very philosophyheavy which is my this aspect of exactly uh how this book is aspect of exactly uh how this book is aspect of exactly uh how this book is crazy crazy crazy >> is it is it in the end something of a >> is it is it in the end something of a >> is it is it in the end something of a repudiation of stoicism then repudiation of stoicism then repudiation of stoicism then >> you know it's kind of interesting is >> you know it's kind of interesting is >> you know it's kind of interesting is that I I that I I that I I I think that one of the things that's to I think that one of the things that's to I think that one of the things that's to me kind of interesting is that me kind of interesting is that me kind of interesting is that you know it stoicism doesn't love chaos you know it stoicism doesn't love chaos you know it stoicism doesn't love chaos you know and and I kind of like chaos you know and and I kind of like chaos you know and and I kind of like chaos you know like you say, "Oh, I love the you know like you say, "Oh, I love the you know like you say, "Oh, I love the low road." You know, it's like I I mean, low road." You know, it's like I I mean, low road." You know, it's like I I mean, you don't really love the road low road, you don't really love the road low road, you don't really love the road low road, but I mean, it's like kind of asking you but I mean, it's like kind of asking you but I mean, it's like kind of asking you not to be human, you know, to want to not to be human, you know, to want to not to be human, you know, to want to not want to like lust or just like give not want to like lust or just like give not want to like lust or just like give into your appetites or, you know, to into your appetites or, you know, to into your appetites or, you know, to just like do the wrong thing and just just like do the wrong thing and just just like do the wrong thing and just like feel good, you know, like feel good, you know, like feel good, you know, sending a hundred angry texts and sending a hundred angry texts and sending a hundred angry texts and becoming completely unhinged in the becoming completely unhinged in the becoming completely unhinged in the moment. Like that is being human, you moment. Like that is being human, you moment. Like that is being human, you know? And so I feel like there's um know? And so I feel like there's um know? And so I feel like there's um there's there's there's certainly a there's there's there's certainly a there's there's there's certainly a denial of that in stoicism, you know, of denial of that in stoicism, you know, of denial of that in stoicism, you know, of a stoic sage. And so, and I think love a stoic sage. And so, and I think love a stoic sage. And so, and I think love is it's, you know, especially in the is it's, you know, especially in the is it's, you know, especially in the early stages, as I was writing about in early stages, as I was writing about in early stages, as I was writing about in my book, it's just by definition, you my book, it's just by definition, you my book, it's just by definition, you know, chaotic and you're unhinged and know, chaotic and you're unhinged and know, chaotic and you're unhinged and you're, you know, desiring what you you're, you know, desiring what you you're, you know, desiring what you don't have and you'll do anything to get don't have and you'll do anything to get don't have and you'll do anything to get it and to keep it and all of that kind it and to keep it and all of that kind it and to keep it and all of that kind of good great [ __ ] you know, that that of good great [ __ ] you know, that that of good great [ __ ] you know, that that love is. And so I think at the end she love is. And so I think at the end she love is. And so I think at the end she kind of, you know, um is still a stoic kind of, you know, um is still a stoic kind of, you know, um is still a stoic and but maybe has has uh has modified it and but maybe has has uh has modified it and but maybe has has uh has modified it a little bit. a little bit. a little bit. >> Where are you with stoicism? >> Where are you with stoicism? >> Where are you with stoicism? >> I love stoicism, but I will say I'm also >> I love stoicism, but I will say I'm also >> I love stoicism, but I will say I'm also kind of now uh kind of now uh kind of now uh getting into Nichze who really hated the getting into Nichze who really hated the getting into Nichze who really hated the stoics. Um and and and he's pretty he he stoics. Um and and and he's pretty he he stoics. Um and and and he's pretty he he has his own set of problems, but but has his own set of problems, but but has his own set of problems, but but there's something about just like the there's something about just like the there's something about just like the will um just the creative will that I will um just the creative will that I will um just the creative will that I think is just really fascinating. Um but think is just really fascinating. Um but think is just really fascinating. Um but but I will always I don't know that I but I will always I don't know that I but I will always I don't know that I will ever not um do my stoic practice will ever not um do my stoic practice will ever not um do my stoic practice because it really does make me feel because it really does make me feel because it really does make me feel good, you know, when I it it's just now good, you know, when I it it's just now good, you know, when I it it's just now a practice. I mean I don't know if you a practice. I mean I don't know if you a practice. I mean I don't know if you meditate do you meditate like every meditate do you meditate like every meditate do you meditate like every morning, Dan? Do you start out the day? morning, Dan? Do you start out the day? morning, Dan? Do you start out the day? >> It uh it really depends on the day. >> It uh it really depends on the day. >> It uh it really depends on the day. >> Okay. So So I >> Okay. So So I >> Okay. So So I So I feel like So I feel like So I feel like and I don't know if if you I certainly and I don't know if if you I certainly and I don't know if if you I certainly don't feel this when I meditate, which don't feel this when I meditate, which don't feel this when I meditate, which is why I rarely meditate, but I don't is why I rarely meditate, but I don't is why I rarely meditate, but I don't feel good when I meditate, you know? feel good when I meditate, you know? feel good when I meditate, you know? Like I feel bad when I meditate. I will Like I feel bad when I meditate. I will Like I feel bad when I meditate. I will say sorry. I know this is a meditation say sorry. I know this is a meditation say sorry. I know this is a meditation podcast. supposed to be. But I mean, I podcast. supposed to be. But I mean, I podcast. supposed to be. But I mean, I just judge myself too much, you know, just judge myself too much, you know, just judge myself too much, you know, and it's like and I get anxious. I get and it's like and I get anxious. I get and it's like and I get anxious. I get like have all this anxiety like have all this anxiety like have all this anxiety and and I think stoicism kind of in a and and I think stoicism kind of in a and and I think stoicism kind of in a way for a practice just at least makes way for a practice just at least makes way for a practice just at least makes me feel good while I'm doing it. I'm not me feel good while I'm doing it. I'm not me feel good while I'm doing it. I'm not just like like sweating with shame, you just like like sweating with shame, you just like like sweating with shame, you know, while I'm doing it. know, while I'm doing it. know, while I'm doing it. >> Sorry. Is this not a good thing to say >> Sorry. Is this not a good thing to say >> Sorry. Is this not a good thing to say on this podcast? on this podcast? on this podcast? >> No. No. There's no such thing of a bad >> No. No. There's no such thing of a bad >> No. No. There's no such thing of a bad thing to say on this show. And it's not thing to say on this show. And it's not thing to say on this show. And it's not really I mean we talk about meditation really I mean we talk about meditation really I mean we talk about meditation and Buddhism a lot but it's really about and Buddhism a lot but it's really about and Buddhism a lot but it's really about we do we've done tons on stoicism we do we do we've done tons on stoicism we do we do we've done tons on stoicism we do sleep and we it's all aspects of life. sleep and we it's all aspects of life. sleep and we it's all aspects of life. Um, Ken, maybe this is a little bit cute Um, Ken, maybe this is a little bit cute Um, Ken, maybe this is a little bit cute what I'm going to say. Um, and I I do what I'm going to say. Um, and I I do what I'm going to say. Um, and I I do want to get back to stoicism and your want to get back to stoicism and your want to get back to stoicism and your take on it and what you said about take on it and what you said about take on it and what you said about Niche, which I I need to learn more Niche, which I I need to learn more Niche, which I I need to learn more about cuz I don't fully understand. But about cuz I don't fully understand. But about cuz I don't fully understand. But just to respond to what you said about just to respond to what you said about just to respond to what you said about um meditation, which is very common, the um meditation, which is very common, the um meditation, which is very common, the experience you're describing. Uh, and experience you're describing. Uh, and experience you're describing. Uh, and the cute part is I I I do want to the cute part is I I I do want to the cute part is I I I do want to reframe it if I can for you that might reframe it if I can for you that might reframe it if I can for you that might and maybe this will be helpful and this and maybe this will be helpful and this and maybe this will be helpful and this is not designed to browbe you into is not designed to browbe you into is not designed to browbe you into meditating. Oh, please meditating. Oh, please meditating. Oh, please >> help change the way you and some others >> help change the way you and some others >> help change the way you and some others think about it. The point of meditation think about it. The point of meditation think about it. The point of meditation is not to feel any kind of way. The is not to feel any kind of way. The is not to feel any kind of way. The point is to be cool with whatever you're point is to be cool with whatever you're point is to be cool with whatever you're feeling. And that leads to a kind of feeling. And that leads to a kind of feeling. And that leads to a kind of meta equinimity where you realize that meta equinimity where you realize that meta equinimity where you realize that whatever comes up externally or whatever comes up externally or whatever comes up externally or internally, you can handle it because internally, you can handle it because internally, you can handle it because you've sat with it. You've sat with all you've sat with it. You've sat with all you've sat with it. You've sat with all the ugliness of your mind. Mhm. the ugliness of your mind. Mhm. the ugliness of your mind. Mhm. >> Uh and survived. Um one of my favorite >> Uh and survived. Um one of my favorite >> Uh and survived. Um one of my favorite little little little uh apherisms, it's a coinage of Joseph uh apherisms, it's a coinage of Joseph uh apherisms, it's a coinage of Joseph Goldstein, who I know you're familiar Goldstein, who I know you're familiar Goldstein, who I know you're familiar with, my my favorite meditation teacher, with, my my favorite meditation teacher, with, my my favorite meditation teacher, and and and >> he he often tells people it's okay, >> he he often tells people it's okay, >> he he often tells people it's okay, which does not mean everything's okay. which does not mean everything's okay. which does not mean everything's okay. It just means it's okay to feel whatever It just means it's okay to feel whatever It just means it's okay to feel whatever you're feeling right now. And that you're feeling right now. And that you're feeling right now. And that creates a kind of equinimity that allows creates a kind of equinimity that allows creates a kind of equinimity that allows you to navigate all life's ups and downs you to navigate all life's ups and downs you to navigate all life's ups and downs with more with more with more >> skill. Does that make sense what I'm >> skill. Does that make sense what I'm >> skill. Does that make sense what I'm saying? saying? saying? >> No, it does. And then you bring that >> No, it does. And then you bring that >> No, it does. And then you bring that into everything. Then there's just kind into everything. Then there's just kind into everything. Then there's just kind of a general benevolence that then you of a general benevolence that then you of a general benevolence that then you will greet the day and other people will greet the day and other people will greet the day and other people with, right, once you kind of give it to with, right, once you kind of give it to with, right, once you kind of give it to yourself. I I can really see that. I can yourself. I I can really see that. I can yourself. I I can really see that. I can see that. But I get, you know, I have see that. But I get, you know, I have see that. But I get, you know, I have the same issue you have, which is the same issue you have, which is the same issue you have, which is anxiety is I feel like when I sit to anxiety is I feel like when I sit to anxiety is I feel like when I sit to meditate, meditate, meditate, I just like my heart races, you know, I just like my heart races, you know, I just like my heart races, you know, and and it it feels like it wouldn't be and and it it feels like it wouldn't be and and it it feels like it wouldn't be racing if I weren't meditating. So why racing if I weren't meditating. So why racing if I weren't meditating. So why why am I putting myself in this why am I putting myself in this why am I putting myself in this situation? situation? situation? You know, maybe you have an answer for You know, maybe you have an answer for You know, maybe you have an answer for that. that. that. >> I do. I do a two two-part answer. >> I do. I do a two two-part answer. >> I do. I do a two two-part answer. Two-part answer. One is you can think Two-part answer. One is you can think Two-part answer. One is you can think about it like first well before I give about it like first well before I give about it like first well before I give you the two-part answer the I want to you the two-part answer the I want to you the two-part answer the I want to signal again. signal again. signal again. >> I know I know you've never you've never >> I know I know you've never you've never >> I know I know you've never you've never been the the seller the peddler. I know. been the the seller the peddler. I know. been the the seller the peddler. I know. >> Okay. Okay. Thank you. Two-part answer. >> Okay. Okay. Thank you. Two-part answer. >> Okay. Okay. Thank you. Two-part answer. One is you can think of it as a a kind One is you can think of it as a a kind One is you can think of it as a a kind of exposure therapy. You know the of exposure therapy. You know the of exposure therapy. You know the anxiety is a prominent and massively anxiety is a prominent and massively anxiety is a prominent and massively salient feature of your mind and my mind salient feature of your mind and my mind salient feature of your mind and my mind and it whether we meditate or not it's and it whether we meditate or not it's and it whether we meditate or not it's going to be there. And so meditation is going to be there. And so meditation is going to be there. And so meditation is a way to kind of learn to work with this a way to kind of learn to work with this a way to kind of learn to work with this gnarly inconvenient um psychological gnarly inconvenient um psychological gnarly inconvenient um psychological feature or bug um uh more skillfully. So feature or bug um uh more skillfully. So feature or bug um uh more skillfully. So that's one answer. The second answer is that's one answer. The second answer is that's one answer. The second answer is I there are types of meditation that I I there are types of meditation that I I there are types of meditation that I think go right at anxiety in particular. think go right at anxiety in particular. think go right at anxiety in particular. You used this word before, meta, not mea You used this word before, meta, not mea You used this word before, meta, not mea like uh like uh like uh >> um the name of the company that owns >> um the name of the company that owns >> um the name of the company that owns Instagram, but meta, which is a kind of Instagram, but meta, which is a kind of Instagram, but meta, which is a kind of benevolence or friendliness. And that benevolence or friendliness. And that benevolence or friendliness. And that style of meditation where you style of meditation where you style of meditation where you systematically envision certain people, systematically envision certain people, systematically envision certain people, send them good vibes, including send them good vibes, including send them good vibes, including yourself, uh which can be very cheesy as yourself, uh which can be very cheesy as yourself, uh which can be very cheesy as you know. Um it was designed by the you know. Um it was designed by the you know. Um it was designed by the Buddha. It is said uh as an antidote to Buddha. It is said uh as an antidote to Buddha. It is said uh as an antidote to fear. Um and so you know and it makes fear. Um and so you know and it makes fear. Um and so you know and it makes sense. Love is kind of the opposite of sense. Love is kind of the opposite of sense. Love is kind of the opposite of fear. And so if you can just generate fear. And so if you can just generate fear. And so if you can just generate that skill of warmth, compassion, it that skill of warmth, compassion, it that skill of warmth, compassion, it pulls you out of spirals of fear and pulls you out of spirals of fear and pulls you out of spirals of fear and anxiety. So that's my two-part answer. anxiety. So that's my two-part answer. anxiety. So that's my two-part answer. >> Okay. So I love the meta practice. Okay. >> Okay. So I love the meta practice. Okay. >> Okay. So I love the meta practice. Okay. It's I just it's like a drug. I just It's I just it's like a drug. I just It's I just it's like a drug. I just feel like a runner's high after I do it. feel like a runner's high after I do it. feel like a runner's high after I do it. So here's my question. So here's my question. So here's my question. If I um if like my practice was to sit If I um if like my practice was to sit If I um if like my practice was to sit down in the morning and like listen do down in the morning and like listen do down in the morning and like listen do you have it on your app? I'm imagining a you have it on your app? I'm imagining a you have it on your app? I'm imagining a meta practice. Okay. So let's say I go meta practice. Okay. So let's say I go meta practice. Okay. So let's say I go to your app and I do meta every morning. to your app and I do meta every morning. to your app and I do meta every morning. >> That doesn't that feels like cheating >> That doesn't that feels like cheating >> That doesn't that feels like cheating for me as meditation. Like I for you for me as meditation. Like I for you for me as meditation. Like I for you know like I have this idea that I need know like I have this idea that I need know like I have this idea that I need to sit there and empty my thoughts and to sit there and empty my thoughts and to sit there and empty my thoughts and if something goes by watch it like a if something goes by watch it like a if something goes by watch it like a cloud or whatever and then cloud or whatever and then cloud or whatever and then >> but like could I just every morning do a >> but like could I just every morning do a >> but like could I just every morning do a meta practice like if you guide me or meta practice like if you guide me or meta practice like if you guide me or another teacher I like literally listen another teacher I like literally listen another teacher I like literally listen to a tape and I'm not like alone quietly to a tape and I'm not like alone quietly to a tape and I'm not like alone quietly with my thoughts. with my thoughts. with my thoughts. >> Yes. It's a million% you can do exactly >> Yes. It's a million% you can do exactly >> Yes. It's a million% you can do exactly what you're describing. And just to say what you're describing. And just to say what you're describing. And just to say on the clearing your mind thing, that's on the clearing your mind thing, that's on the clearing your mind thing, that's impossible. And that's a a pernicious impossible. And that's a a pernicious impossible. And that's a a pernicious misconception that people carry into misconception that people carry into misconception that people carry into their meditation practice that makes it their meditation practice that makes it their meditation practice that makes it miserable because it they're trying to miserable because it they're trying to miserable because it they're trying to do an impossible thing. So there's no do an impossible thing. So there's no do an impossible thing. So there's no cheating. Another Josephism is whatever cheating. Another Josephism is whatever cheating. Another Josephism is whatever works, do what works. If meditate, if works, do what works. If meditate, if works, do what works. If meditate, if doing no meditation is what works for doing no meditation is what works for doing no meditation is what works for you, I want you to do no meditation. you, I want you to do no meditation. you, I want you to do no meditation. Okay? If doing some meditation of a Okay? If doing some meditation of a Okay? If doing some meditation of a specific variety is what works for you, specific variety is what works for you, specific variety is what works for you, then do that. then do that. then do that. >> Okay. God, you know, I'm actually gonna >> Okay. God, you know, I'm actually gonna >> Okay. God, you know, I'm actually gonna do this. I'm gonna do about I'm gonna do do this. I'm gonna do about I'm gonna do do this. I'm gonna do about I'm gonna do like a 10day meta practice because I like a 10day meta practice because I like a 10day meta practice because I love the meta practice, like I say. So, love the meta practice, like I say. So, love the meta practice, like I say. So, that's, you know, like I go into it that's, you know, like I go into it that's, you know, like I go into it without dread. I'd be like, "Oh, yeah. without dread. I'd be like, "Oh, yeah. without dread. I'd be like, "Oh, yeah. You get to sit down and like send good You get to sit down and like send good You get to sit down and like send good wishes to the stranger, you know, which wishes to the stranger, you know, which wishes to the stranger, you know, which I love doing." Um, so, so, okay, good. I love doing." Um, so, so, okay, good. I love doing." Um, so, so, okay, good. That Okay, and I'll report back. That Okay, and I'll report back. That Okay, and I'll report back. >> But this kind of brings us back to your >> But this kind of brings us back to your >> But this kind of brings us back to your character and your story and and also character and your story and and also character and your story and and also your personal story. Um because we were your personal story. Um because we were your personal story. Um because we were talking before we went down this little talking before we went down this little talking before we went down this little rabbit hole uh about the limits of rabbit hole uh about the limits of rabbit hole uh about the limits of stoicism and I'm wondering if stoicism and I'm wondering if stoicism and I'm wondering if deliberately you know the the stoicism's deliberately you know the the stoicism's deliberately you know the the stoicism's reputation and I'm not an expert in it. reputation and I'm not an expert in it. reputation and I'm not an expert in it. Stoicism's reputation as kind of Stoicism's reputation as kind of Stoicism's reputation as kind of clinical and reasonable um is missing clinical and reasonable um is missing clinical and reasonable um is missing the the warm and gooey piece that is the the the warm and gooey piece that is the the the warm and gooey piece that is the inevitable result I believe of loving inevitable result I believe of loving inevitable result I believe of loving kindness practice. kindness practice. kindness practice. >> Right. I I mean I there's a lot to be >> Right. I I mean I there's a lot to be >> Right. I I mean I there's a lot to be said here and you can pull quotes and said here and you can pull quotes and said here and you can pull quotes and you know like I say justice is really you know like I say justice is really you know like I say justice is really about you know friendliness and being about you know friendliness and being about you know friendliness and being compassionate and the difficult people compassionate and the difficult people compassionate and the difficult people that you give love to and all of that that you give love to and all of that that you give love to and all of that but um I don't really think that's what but um I don't really think that's what but um I don't really think that's what it's about you know like I like I think it's about you know like I like I think it's about you know like I like I think if you really wanted to defend stoicism if you really wanted to defend stoicism if you really wanted to defend stoicism that you could say oh no it it's in that you could say oh no it it's in that you could say oh no it it's in there it's all in there. Um it is pretty there it's all in there. Um it is pretty there it's all in there. Um it is pretty cold you know it it is pretty cold you know it it is pretty cold you know it it is pretty uh it's purely rational you know and and uh it's purely rational you know and and uh it's purely rational you know and and I think it is rational I think it is rational I think it is rational to love people and to be kind to people to love people and to be kind to people to love people and to be kind to people and and uh to embrace difficult people and and uh to embrace difficult people and and uh to embrace difficult people you know uh but but it's all in stoicism you know uh but but it's all in stoicism you know uh but but it's all in stoicism it's like rooted in it's like rooted in it's like rooted in in rationality you So they they say it's in rationality you So they they say it's in rationality you So they they say it's part of being human. So maybe that gets part of being human. So maybe that gets part of being human. So maybe that gets a little closer, you know, that that's a little closer, you know, that that's a little closer, you know, that that's what being a human is. And we have to what being a human is. And we have to what being a human is. And we have to get along with people. And get along with people. And get along with people. And you know what's what is it? What's good you know what's what is it? What's good you know what's what is it? What's good for the hive is what's good for the bee for the hive is what's good for the bee for the hive is what's good for the bee or what's good for I don't know what be or what's good for I don't know what be or what's good for I don't know what be is good for the hive or whatever it is. is good for the hive or whatever it is. is good for the hive or whatever it is. Like we all have to work together in a Like we all have to work together in a Like we all have to work together in a system. Um but no, it's not. Yeah. It it system. Um but no, it's not. Yeah. It it system. Um but no, it's not. Yeah. It it I I and and I'm not an expert. I mean, I I I and and I'm not an expert. I mean, I I I and and I'm not an expert. I mean, I I spend a lot of time on it, but I I I spend a lot of time on it, but I I I spend a lot of time on it, but I I certainly don't hold myself out an certainly don't hold myself out an certainly don't hold myself out an expert. We should get Ryan Holiday on expert. We should get Ryan Holiday on expert. We should get Ryan Holiday on the phone because he would have a good the phone because he would have a good the phone because he would have a good answer for this. Um but I think that uh answer for this. Um but I think that uh answer for this. Um but I think that uh that the um that that just about being that the um that that just about being that the um that that just about being purely loving, I I'm not seeing that in purely loving, I I'm not seeing that in purely loving, I I'm not seeing that in the in the text of stoicism, you know, the in the text of stoicism, you know, the in the text of stoicism, you know, just like running around joyfully and just like running around joyfully and just like running around joyfully and giving love. giving love. giving love. Yeah. Oh, so just to say about Ryan Yeah. Oh, so just to say about Ryan Yeah. Oh, so just to say about Ryan Holidayiday, he's been on the show Holidayiday, he's been on the show Holidayiday, he's been on the show several times. I'll put a link to my several times. I'll put a link to my several times. I'll put a link to my interview in the show notes. I'll put a interview in the show notes. I'll put a interview in the show notes. I'll put a link to my interviews with Ryan. But uh link to my interviews with Ryan. But uh link to my interviews with Ryan. But uh and I'm sure he would have a lot to say and I'm sure he would have a lot to say and I'm sure he would have a lot to say on this subject. But getting back to you on this subject. But getting back to you on this subject. But getting back to you and your main character Adora, um it and your main character Adora, um it and your main character Adora, um it seems like the the seems like the the seems like the the while you and Adora both continue to while you and Adora both continue to while you and Adora both continue to love and practice stoicism, there is love and practice stoicism, there is love and practice stoicism, there is this addition of um a little bit more this addition of um a little bit more this addition of um a little bit more messiness and warmth and wild love that messiness and warmth and wild love that messiness and warmth and wild love that you're all you're innovating on top of you're all you're innovating on top of you're all you're innovating on top of it. it. it. >> Yes. and just allowing that. And you >> Yes. and just allowing that. And you >> Yes. and just allowing that. And you know, I'll tell you something that I was know, I'll tell you something that I was know, I'll tell you something that I was writing that was kind of one of the writing that was kind of one of the writing that was kind of one of the sparks for writing the book or there's sparks for writing the book or there's sparks for writing the book or there's this section in the middle of the book this section in the middle of the book this section in the middle of the book that's a going into Adora's past and and that's a going into Adora's past and and that's a going into Adora's past and and and and and one of the things that I really love one of the things that I really love one of the things that I really love about um about stoicism and what I about um about stoicism and what I about um about stoicism and what I wanted to write about and particularly wanted to write about and particularly wanted to write about and particularly as it pertained to me is that I realized as it pertained to me is that I realized as it pertained to me is that I realized as I was studying stoicism that I'd as I was studying stoicism that I'd as I was studying stoicism that I'd never thought about my personal never thought about my personal never thought about my personal character wi-i which was really character wi-i which was really character wi-i which was really horrifying to me, you know, that I I was horrifying to me, you know, that I I was horrifying to me, you know, that I I was raised Catholic, but I I feel like they raised Catholic, but I I feel like they raised Catholic, but I I feel like they didn't talk about character. They just didn't talk about character. They just didn't talk about character. They just talked about like miracles that Jesus talked about like miracles that Jesus talked about like miracles that Jesus did. And if you didn't believe it, you'd did. And if you didn't believe it, you'd did. And if you didn't believe it, you'd have to like say more Hail Marys. It was have to like say more Hail Marys. It was have to like say more Hail Marys. It was not not a good priest I went to, not not a good priest I went to, not not a good priest I went to, apparently. But it was just like I I apparently. But it was just like I I apparently. But it was just like I I didn't learn about didn't learn about didn't learn about like just being in control of of like just being in control of of like just being in control of of your character and always doing the your character and always doing the your character and always doing the right thing and having like moral right thing and having like moral right thing and having like moral courage and separating that out from courage and separating that out from courage and separating that out from kind of status seeking and the and and kind of status seeking and the and and kind of status seeking and the and and what what society is telling you will what what society is telling you will what what society is telling you will make you happy. you know, all the make you happy. you know, all the make you happy. you know, all the bainted bounties as as if we've called bainted bounties as as if we've called bainted bounties as as if we've called them before of just, you know, success them before of just, you know, success them before of just, you know, success and reputation and money and all that and reputation and money and all that and reputation and money and all that stuff. And I I realized that as I stuff. And I I realized that as I stuff. And I I realized that as I started getting into stoicism that I was started getting into stoicism that I was started getting into stoicism that I was I just kind of internalized all this I just kind of internalized all this I just kind of internalized all this garbage without really thinking about garbage without really thinking about garbage without really thinking about it. And and so that that's really what I it. And and so that that's really what I it. And and so that that's really what I wanted to write about was kind of wanted to write about was kind of wanted to write about was kind of character, you know, and that that Adora character, you know, and that that Adora character, you know, and that that Adora kind of felt like she had bad character kind of felt like she had bad character kind of felt like she had bad character because she wanted kind of the wrong because she wanted kind of the wrong because she wanted kind of the wrong things, you know, she was like like I things, you know, she was like like I things, you know, she was like like I was. I conveniently made her a former TV was. I conveniently made her a former TV was. I conveniently made her a former TV writer in Hollywood as as I was. And and writer in Hollywood as as I was. And and writer in Hollywood as as I was. And and she was younger when she did it as as she was younger when she did it as as she was younger when she did it as as was I. Um, but you know, she wanted she was I. Um, but you know, she wanted she was I. Um, but you know, she wanted she was chasing all these things that that was chasing all these things that that was chasing all these things that that society tells you are going to make you society tells you are going to make you society tells you are going to make you happy. And so I think one of my real happy. And so I think one of my real happy. And so I think one of my real turnons with stoicism was just kind of turnons with stoicism was just kind of turnons with stoicism was just kind of separating out all of that stuff, you separating out all of that stuff, you separating out all of that stuff, you know, questioning that really. they they know, questioning that really. they they know, questioning that really. they they go the Stoics go really hard at that go the Stoics go really hard at that go the Stoics go really hard at that does not make you happy. You know, that does not make you happy. You know, that does not make you happy. You know, that is like the like act the path of is like the like act the path of is like the like act the path of suffering to to pursue any of that. Even suffering to to pursue any of that. Even suffering to to pursue any of that. Even if you get it, it's going to make you if you get it, it's going to make you if you get it, it's going to make you miserable. And so that's just something miserable. And so that's just something miserable. And so that's just something I hadn't heard. That's like really fresh I hadn't heard. That's like really fresh I hadn't heard. That's like really fresh and new. you know, if you're just and new. you know, if you're just and new. you know, if you're just sitting around mindlessly munching down, you know, just mindlessly munching down, you know, just the messages of society, it's like, oh, the messages of society, it's like, oh, the messages of society, it's like, oh, wow, there's another way and I don't wow, there's another way and I don't wow, there's another way and I don't have to be like a toxic person, you have to be like a toxic person, you have to be like a toxic person, you know, carrying this stuff around with know, carrying this stuff around with know, carrying this stuff around with me. And so that's kind of ador Adora's me. And so that's kind of ador Adora's me. And so that's kind of ador Adora's journey as well, like you you see, and journey as well, like you you see, and journey as well, like you you see, and that was really fun for me to write that was really fun for me to write that was really fun for me to write about. about. about. >> What was the term you used? Bainted >> What was the term you used? Bainted >> What was the term you used? Bainted bounties. What? bounties. What? bounties. What? >> Oh, a b a bainted bounty. I you know >> Oh, a b a bainted bounty. I you know >> Oh, a b a bainted bounty. I you know what I use that you don't remember? um what I use that you don't remember? um what I use that you don't remember? um at dinner once a few months ago and you at dinner once a few months ago and you at dinner once a few months ago and you really liked it. So I was giving you really liked it. So I was giving you really liked it. So I was giving you another I was giving you another shot at another I was giving you another shot at another I was giving you another shot at it, Dan. Um it, Dan. Um it, Dan. Um >> that's so embarrassing. I My memory is >> that's so embarrassing. I My memory is >> that's so embarrassing. I My memory is like Swiss cheese. like Swiss cheese. like Swiss cheese. >> No, it doesn't matter. It was so minor. >> No, it doesn't matter. It was so minor. >> No, it doesn't matter. It was so minor. No, no. It's what Senica calls kind of No, no. It's what Senica calls kind of No, no. It's what Senica calls kind of the um the things that get dangled in the um the things that get dangled in the um the things that get dangled in front of you as uh as things that you front of you as uh as things that you front of you as uh as things that you you know the Stoics call them externals you know the Stoics call them externals you know the Stoics call them externals that anything that's outside of your that anything that's outside of your that anything that's outside of your control that and often you desire them. control that and often you desire them. control that and often you desire them. But so the bainted bounties are But so the bainted bounties are But so the bainted bounties are basically like you know riches or basically like you know riches or basically like you know riches or something that you think like oh it's something that you think like oh it's something that you think like oh it's it's bountiful but it's like it's like it's bountiful but it's like it's like it's bountiful but it's like it's like baited with um you know with treachery baited with um you know with treachery baited with um you know with treachery or with you know with negativity and you or with you know with negativity and you or with you know with negativity and you think you're going for something that's think you're going for something that's think you're going for something that's going to make you happy but it's going to make you happy but it's going to make you happy but it's actually um it's it's you know it's actually um it's it's you know it's actually um it's it's you know it's something that that you snap at you know something that that you snap at you know something that that you snap at you know uh and and yet uh and and yet uh and and yet >> it's >> it's >> it's >> so is it baited about it B A I T baited >> so is it baited about it B A I T baited >> so is it baited about it B A I T baited baited. Okay. baited. Okay. baited. Okay. >> Baited bounty. >> Baited bounty. >> Baited bounty. >> So, so, so that I probably said this at >> So, so, so that I probably said this at >> So, so, so that I probably said this at dinner and don't remember that either, dinner and don't remember that either, dinner and don't remember that either, but but but uh the Buddha talked about the terrible uh the Buddha talked about the terrible uh the Buddha talked about the terrible bait of the world. bait of the world. bait of the world. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> Okay, that's what it is. The baited >> Okay, that's what it is. The baited >> Okay, that's what it is. The baited bounty. Yeah. bounty. Yeah. bounty. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And what does he say? The the bait of >> And what does he say? The the bait of >> And what does he say? The the bait of the world. the world. the world. >> It's all the same stuff. you know, if >> It's all the same stuff. you know, if >> It's all the same stuff. you know, if you're he also said, "What the world you're he also said, "What the world you're he also said, "What the world calls happiness, I I call suffering, and calls happiness, I I call suffering, and calls happiness, I I call suffering, and what the world calls suffering, I call what the world calls suffering, I call what the world calls suffering, I call happiness." And so, it's all about the happiness." And so, it's all about the happiness." And so, it's all about the the downside of desire. He he he's not the downside of desire. He he he's not the downside of desire. He he he's not anti-pleasure, but he he describes it, anti-pleasure, but he he describes it, anti-pleasure, but he he describes it, and this is quite a um simile here, um and this is quite a um simile here, um and this is quite a um simile here, um as being like licking honey from the as being like licking honey from the as being like licking honey from the edge of a razor. edge of a razor. edge of a razor. >> Um Okay. Ouch. Okay. So there's there's >> Um Okay. Ouch. Okay. So there's there's >> Um Okay. Ouch. Okay. So there's there's um yeah, we need to eat and reproduce um yeah, we need to eat and reproduce um yeah, we need to eat and reproduce and lots. He's not saying we we need a and lots. He's not saying we we need a and lots. He's not saying we we need a um completely um monkish, although he um completely um monkish, although he um completely um monkish, although he was a monk uh life. Uh it it's that if was a monk uh life. Uh it it's that if was a monk uh life. Uh it it's that if if if that's where you're placing all of if if that's where you're placing all of if if that's where you're placing all of your hope for happiness and fulfillment, your hope for happiness and fulfillment, your hope for happiness and fulfillment, it is unlikely to provide. it is unlikely to provide. it is unlikely to provide. >> Right? And that's and that's what this >> Right? And that's and that's what this >> Right? And that's and that's what this is. The Stoics have one of my favorite is. The Stoics have one of my favorite is. The Stoics have one of my favorite terms just because it's so clunky and terms just because it's so clunky and terms just because it's so clunky and it's so like such a bad translation but it's so like such a bad translation but it's so like such a bad translation but I don't know how else to do it is they I don't know how else to do it is they I don't know how else to do it is they they um so I think it's Senica mainly they um so I think it's Senica mainly they um so I think it's Senica mainly who says that that that you can want who says that that that you can want who says that that that you can want money and pleasure and reputation. Okay, money and pleasure and reputation. Okay, money and pleasure and reputation. Okay, that that but but that that but but that that but but that you have but that if you get it, that you have but that if you get it, that you have but that if you get it, you have to get it without attachment. you have to get it without attachment. you have to get it without attachment. you you know what I'm saying that you you you know what I'm saying that you you you know what I'm saying that you can like as long as you're not attached can like as long as you're not attached can like as long as you're not attached to it you can have it which was to it you can have it which was to it you can have it which was convenient for him because he was like convenient for him because he was like convenient for him because he was like the richest man in the empire you know the richest man in the empire you know the richest man in the empire you know so he had to like come up with a so he had to like come up with a so he had to like come up with a workaround right about like I'm sitting workaround right about like I'm sitting workaround right about like I'm sitting here in my robes you know with all of of here in my robes you know with all of of here in my robes you know with all of of my of my enslaved people around me so my of my enslaved people around me so my of my enslaved people around me so how do I um circle that square but so how do I um circle that square but so how do I um circle that square but so but but they call he he he he puts but but they call he he he he puts but but they call he he he he puts externals which again is anything that's externals which again is anything that's externals which again is anything that's not your character into two categories not your character into two categories not your character into two categories and and he calls externals in and and he calls externals in and and he calls externals in Indifference I N D I F E R E N Ts, Indifference I N D I F E R E N Ts, Indifference I N D I F E R E N Ts, right? Indifference. They are like an right? Indifference. They are like an right? Indifference. They are like an indifference. And so he calls them indifference. And so he calls them indifference. And so he calls them indifference. And he says that that indifference. And he says that that indifference. And he says that that there are preferred indifference, which there are preferred indifference, which there are preferred indifference, which is like, you know, comfort and pleasure is like, you know, comfort and pleasure is like, you know, comfort and pleasure and money. And then there's dispreferred and money. And then there's dispreferred and money. And then there's dispreferred indifference. And I just think that's a indifference. And I just think that's a indifference. And I just think that's a really funny term is a dispreerred really funny term is a dispreerred really funny term is a dispreerred indifference. So when something really indifference. So when something really indifference. So when something really bad happens, I'm like that was a bad happens, I'm like that was a bad happens, I'm like that was a dispreferred indifferent. you know that dispreferred indifferent. you know that dispreferred indifferent. you know that that these things that happen you can um that these things that happen you can um that these things that happen you can um you still can want good things to happen you still can want good things to happen you still can want good things to happen to you. You know what I mean? And I to you. You know what I mean? And I to you. You know what I mean? And I think that that does allow for humanity think that that does allow for humanity think that that does allow for humanity because we are human. I want my book to because we are human. I want my book to because we are human. I want my book to do well, you know, and I don't think do well, you know, and I don't think do well, you know, and I don't think that that makes me like a shallow bad that that makes me like a shallow bad that that makes me like a shallow bad person that I want people to read my person that I want people to read my person that I want people to read my book. I want it to get out in the world, book. I want it to get out in the world, book. I want it to get out in the world, but I if I'm just like not a if like my but I if I'm just like not a if like my but I if I'm just like not a if like my whole sense of tranquility doesn't hinge whole sense of tranquility doesn't hinge whole sense of tranquility doesn't hinge on that, then you know that's okay. I on that, then you know that's okay. I on that, then you know that's okay. 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That's butcherbox.com/happier. That's butcherbox.com/happier. That's butcherbox.com/happier. Don't forget to use our link so that Don't forget to use our link so that Don't forget to use our link so that they know that we sent you. >> So, it's it is to go back to the edge of >> So, it's it is to go back to the edge of the razor. M the razor. M the razor. M >> it's a very narrow path that I hear you >> it's a very narrow path that I hear you >> it's a very narrow path that I hear you describing which is uh you don't want to describing which is uh you don't want to describing which is uh you don't want to deny your humanity. You're a a person deny your humanity. You're a a person deny your humanity. You're a a person who has spent several years working to who has spent several years working to who has spent several years working to create this uh beautiful book. So you create this uh beautiful book. So you create this uh beautiful book. So you want it to do well. You can't help that want it to do well. You can't help that want it to do well. You can't help that you want it to do well and you're doing you want it to do well and you're doing you want it to do well and you're doing these morning rituals that help you these morning rituals that help you these morning rituals that help you sainely tune into the fact that um if sainely tune into the fact that um if sainely tune into the fact that um if you want things that are beyond your you want things that are beyond your you want things that are beyond your control that is a reliable wellspring of control that is a reliable wellspring of control that is a reliable wellspring of unhappiness. unhappiness. unhappiness. >> Exactly. Exactly. And so you know that's >> Exactly. Exactly. And so you know that's >> Exactly. Exactly. And so you know that's and so during the day if I'm writing you and so during the day if I'm writing you and so during the day if I'm writing you know like I say I want to focus. I want know like I say I want to focus. I want know like I say I want to focus. I want to just try to do the best work I can. to just try to do the best work I can. to just try to do the best work I can. Um, and and then and then at the end of Um, and and then and then at the end of Um, and and then and then at the end of the day, I'm happy. And I guess that it the day, I'm happy. And I guess that it the day, I'm happy. And I guess that it is like a matter of faith or not happy, is like a matter of faith or not happy, is like a matter of faith or not happy, but it's like I've done what I set out but it's like I've done what I set out but it's like I've done what I set out to do so I don't have this whole extra to do so I don't have this whole extra to do so I don't have this whole extra thing of like being miserable from from thing of like being miserable from from thing of like being miserable from from not achieving that. And then, you know, not achieving that. And then, you know, not achieving that. And then, you know, you put enough of them together and then you put enough of them together and then you put enough of them together and then you've got a product. I guess that's you've got a product. I guess that's you've got a product. I guess that's kind of the faith that you have to do. kind of the faith that you have to do. kind of the faith that you have to do. You know, that it's not just about You know, that it's not just about You know, that it's not just about wanting the success of it. You know, I wanting the success of it. You know, I wanting the success of it. You know, I want to finish a book. You know what I'm want to finish a book. You know what I'm want to finish a book. You know what I'm saying? Like I'm not pretending that I saying? Like I'm not pretending that I saying? Like I'm not pretending that I don't want to finish a book. I am not don't want to finish a book. I am not don't want to finish a book. I am not just like totally floating um in in just like totally floating um in in just like totally floating um in in non-attachment, you know? And that's I non-attachment, you know? And that's I non-attachment, you know? And that's I mean I always find and I'm sure I've mean I always find and I'm sure I've mean I always find and I'm sure I've talked to you about this is is how do talked to you about this is is how do talked to you about this is is how do you like get [ __ ] done with you like get [ __ ] done with you like get [ __ ] done with non-attachment, right? How do you how do non-attachment, right? How do you how do non-attachment, right? How do you how do you get through the day? And we both are you get through the day? And we both are you get through the day? And we both are accomplished people and we obviously accomplished people and we obviously accomplished people and we obviously value finishing books, right? and and value finishing books, right? and and value finishing books, right? and and having like crazy projects that we see having like crazy projects that we see having like crazy projects that we see to fruition and that takes a lot of to fruition and that takes a lot of to fruition and that takes a lot of self-will, right? It takes a lot of self-will, right? It takes a lot of self-will, right? It takes a lot of determination and desire and a lot of determination and desire and a lot of determination and desire and a lot of like like fueled by fantasy, you know, like like fueled by fantasy, you know, like like fueled by fantasy, you know, in my case of just and that's all like in my case of just and that's all like in my case of just and that's all like danger zone, danger zone, you know, but danger zone, danger zone, you know, but danger zone, danger zone, you know, but I think you do need you do need that. I think you do need you do need that. I think you do need you do need that. >> How do you balance that? >> How do you balance that? >> How do you balance that? >> I don't know. I just I mean I guess I go >> I don't know. I just I mean I guess I go >> I don't know. I just I mean I guess I go back to my practice, but I you know I back to my practice, but I you know I back to my practice, but I you know I was really I I really believe that like was really I I really believe that like was really I I really believe that like fantasy kind of kept me alive when I was fantasy kind of kept me alive when I was fantasy kind of kept me alive when I was a kid. I was a really lonely kind of a kid. I was a really lonely kind of a kid. I was a really lonely kind of unhappy kid and unpopular and I was fat unhappy kid and unpopular and I was fat unhappy kid and unpopular and I was fat and the bullies would beat me up and I and the bullies would beat me up and I and the bullies would beat me up and I would just really prefer would just really prefer would just really prefer my own company and I would just create my own company and I would just create my own company and I would just create these really elaborate fantasy these really elaborate fantasy these really elaborate fantasy scenarios, you know, of just scenarios, you know, of just scenarios, you know, of just usually involving um celebrities being usually involving um celebrities being usually involving um celebrities being in love with me. Uh but but it was you in love with me. Uh but but it was you in love with me. Uh but but it was you know these like very happy worlds that know these like very happy worlds that know these like very happy worlds that were just like highly determined and I were just like highly determined and I were just like highly determined and I would just you know have to be at school would just you know have to be at school would just you know have to be at school or something or I would be like in my or something or I would be like in my or something or I would be like in my fantasy world in the middle of like fantasy world in the middle of like fantasy world in the middle of like literally dialogue and then it would be literally dialogue and then it would be literally dialogue and then it would be like hold that thought I have to go to like hold that thought I have to go to like hold that thought I have to go to class and then like come back and pick class and then like come back and pick class and then like come back and pick up right where I left off you know and I up right where I left off you know and I up right where I left off you know and I used to love like being alone and I grew used to love like being alone and I grew used to love like being alone and I grew up in Aspen Colorado and and and I would up in Aspen Colorado and and and I would up in Aspen Colorado and and and I would always like to be the single on the always like to be the single on the always like to be the single on the chairlift, you know, like I always hated chairlift, you know, like I always hated chairlift, you know, like I always hated it when I'd be in the chairlift line. I it when I'd be in the chairlift line. I it when I'd be in the chairlift line. I always like kind of pretend I was with always like kind of pretend I was with always like kind of pretend I was with somebody and just like get on the somebody and just like get on the somebody and just like get on the chairlift by myself because it was just chairlift by myself because it was just chairlift by myself because it was just so happy for me to sit on this chair so happy for me to sit on this chair so happy for me to sit on this chair lift by myself. I would kind of hope the lift by myself. I would kind of hope the lift by myself. I would kind of hope the chairlift would stop so I could just sit chairlift would stop so I could just sit chairlift would stop so I could just sit there and just like live like very there and just like live like very there and just like live like very intensely in this fantasy world. And so intensely in this fantasy world. And so intensely in this fantasy world. And so I think that's what made me a novelist, I think that's what made me a novelist, I think that's what made me a novelist, you know, it it made me able to kind of you know, it it made me able to kind of you know, it it made me able to kind of sustain my attention over a long time. sustain my attention over a long time. sustain my attention over a long time. It made me think kind of create It made me think kind of create It made me think kind of create scenarios that were like extremely scenarios that were like extremely scenarios that were like extremely pleasurable to me and and I think that pleasurable to me and and I think that pleasurable to me and and I think that that that was a value that I bring to my that that was a value that I bring to my that that was a value that I bring to my books that I write. You know, I try to books that I write. You know, I try to books that I write. You know, I try to write like really nice places for people write like really nice places for people write like really nice places for people to go even though it's like filled with to go even though it's like filled with to go even though it's like filled with ideas and suffering in some ways. Like ideas and suffering in some ways. Like ideas and suffering in some ways. Like generally I really want to offer someone generally I really want to offer someone generally I really want to offer someone this like very um kind of overdetermined this like very um kind of overdetermined this like very um kind of overdetermined happy world that that they can live in happy world that that they can live in happy world that that they can live in for a while. So um I'm I'm not going to for a while. So um I'm I'm not going to for a while. So um I'm I'm not going to renounce kind of fantasy renounce kind of fantasy renounce kind of fantasy >> and that that that kind of fantasy life. >> and that that that kind of fantasy life. >> and that that that kind of fantasy life. I think it's good. I think it's good. I think it's good. >> Well to my ear what you've done this >> Well to my ear what you've done this >> Well to my ear what you've done this beautiful thing I think the term for beautiful thing I think the term for beautiful thing I think the term for this is sublimation. I I think maybe this is sublimation. I I think maybe this is sublimation. I I think maybe like of taking this difficult aspect of like of taking this difficult aspect of like of taking this difficult aspect of your childhood your childhood your childhood um and then you had this survival um and then you had this survival um and then you had this survival mechanism of the fantasy and now you've mechanism of the fantasy and now you've mechanism of the fantasy and now you've turned it into art that is a service to turned it into art that is a service to turned it into art that is a service to the world. the world. the world. >> Oh, well thank you. Yes. I mean that's a >> Oh, well thank you. Yes. I mean that's a >> Oh, well thank you. Yes. I mean that's a that's a nice way of looking at it. that's a nice way of looking at it. that's a nice way of looking at it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. One last thing to say um as we wind down One last thing to say um as we wind down One last thing to say um as we wind down here um about this balance of trying to here um about this balance of trying to here um about this balance of trying to do big and meaningful and important and do big and meaningful and important and do big and meaningful and important and beautiful things in the world without beautiful things in the world without beautiful things in the world without being overly attached. Um one of the being overly attached. Um one of the being overly attached. Um one of the biggest sources of wisdom in my life is biggest sources of wisdom in my life is biggest sources of wisdom in my life is the CEO of of our little company. Um her the CEO of of our little company. Um her the CEO of of our little company. Um her name is Tony. Uh, and we were in a name is Tony. Uh, and we were in a name is Tony. Uh, and we were in a meeting recently about um, uh, my next meeting recently about um, uh, my next meeting recently about um, uh, my next book and planning a bunch of stuff. And book and planning a bunch of stuff. And book and planning a bunch of stuff. And I think she could sense that I was I think she could sense that I was I think she could sense that I was getting revved up and crazy. And she getting revved up and crazy. And she getting revved up and crazy. And she said, "Just keep in mind that good said, "Just keep in mind that good said, "Just keep in mind that good enough is pretty amazing." And I just I enough is pretty amazing." And I just I enough is pretty amazing." And I just I was like, I want to get that tattooed on was like, I want to get that tattooed on was like, I want to get that tattooed on my forehead. Like good enough is pretty my forehead. Like good enough is pretty my forehead. Like good enough is pretty amazing. And uh if if this project is amazing. And uh if if this project is amazing. And uh if if this project is just fine, you know, is good enough, you just fine, you know, is good enough, you just fine, you know, is good enough, you know, it doesn't have to like put a dent know, it doesn't have to like put a dent know, it doesn't have to like put a dent in the universe, it's going to be pretty in the universe, it's going to be pretty in the universe, it's going to be pretty amazing for the people who read it, for amazing for the people who read it, for amazing for the people who read it, for my company, for me, for my family. And my company, for me, for my family. And my company, for me, for my family. And that's sanity inducing for me. that's sanity inducing for me. that's sanity inducing for me. >> Very much so. Yeah, I I totally agree. >> Very much so. Yeah, I I totally agree. >> Very much so. Yeah, I I totally agree. is that and and that you know something is that and and that you know something is that and and that you know something recently that's that's similar that I recently that's that's similar that I recently that's that's similar that I think you you can definitely relate to think you you can definitely relate to think you you can definitely relate to because I know you've been working on because I know you've been working on because I know you've been working on your book for a while is that and I your book for a while is that and I your book for a while is that and I haven't written a book for 10 years this haven't written a book for 10 years this haven't written a book for 10 years this is my first book in 10 years so I'd is my first book in 10 years so I'd is my first book in 10 years so I'd taken a lot of attempts you know taken a lot of attempts you know taken a lot of attempts you know abandoned novels tried this one and it abandoned novels tried this one and it abandoned novels tried this one and it didn't work out and abandoned it tried didn't work out and abandoned it tried didn't work out and abandoned it tried other things um a friend of mine other things um a friend of mine other things um a friend of mine recently who's having a book come out at recently who's having a book come out at recently who's having a book come out at the same time mine is at lunch said to the same time mine is at lunch said to the same time mine is at lunch said to me. Um, what do you want from this book? me. Um, what do you want from this book? me. Um, what do you want from this book? You know, we were both like really pre You know, we were both like really pre You know, we were both like really pre pub and she's like, what do you want pub and she's like, what do you want pub and she's like, what do you want from this book? And I thought about it from this book? And I thought about it from this book? And I thought about it and I thought I want to have written and I thought I want to have written and I thought I want to have written this book this book this book now. It's so I really that's like I'm so now. It's so I really that's like I'm so now. It's so I really that's like I'm so happy I wrote the book that everything happy I wrote the book that everything happy I wrote the book that everything else is gravy, you know, and right? I else is gravy, you know, and right? I else is gravy, you know, and right? I mean, don't you feel so proud, Dan, that mean, don't you feel so proud, Dan, that mean, don't you feel so proud, Dan, that you're going to have written this you're going to have written this you're going to have written this [ __ ] book finally? [ __ ] book finally? [ __ ] book finally? >> I Yes. I need to do a better job of >> I Yes. I need to do a better job of >> I Yes. I need to do a better job of occupying that space because it's very occupying that space because it's very occupying that space because it's very easy for me to get into the realm of easy for me to get into the realm of easy for me to get into the realm of uh not being indifferent and uh and and uh not being indifferent and uh and and uh not being indifferent and uh and and trying to control things that I can't trying to control things that I can't trying to control things that I can't control. control. control. >> Mhm. But I I mean but by doing your >> Mhm. But I I mean but by doing your >> Mhm. But I I mean but by doing your >> I don't know. I think by working hard >> I don't know. I think by working hard >> I don't know. I think by working hard and um and doing your best work that and um and doing your best work that and um and doing your best work that does really set you up for does really set you up for does really set you up for >> Yes. being able to let go a little bit, >> Yes. being able to let go a little bit, >> Yes. being able to let go a little bit, you know, it's the only way to do it. you know, it's the only way to do it. you know, it's the only way to do it. >> Yes. The the Buddhists call it >> Yes. The the Buddhists call it >> Yes. The the Buddhists call it non-attachment to results that you can non-attachment to results that you can non-attachment to results that you can work incredibly hard on a book or or work incredibly hard on a book or or work incredibly hard on a book or or your child as both of us are parents or your child as both of us are parents or your child as both of us are parents or or um or um or um >> uh or anything, any project, you can >> uh or anything, any project, you can >> uh or anything, any project, you can work really hard on it. That's what you work really hard on it. That's what you work really hard on it. That's what you can control. can control. can control. >> But then you release it into an entropic >> But then you release it into an entropic >> But then you release it into an entropic universe and uh you have to do your best universe and uh you have to do your best universe and uh you have to do your best to be nonattached. to be nonattached. to be nonattached. >> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Before I let you >> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Before I let you >> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Before I let you go, can you just remind everybody of the go, can you just remind everybody of the go, can you just remind everybody of the name of the book and then also your past name of the book and then also your past name of the book and then also your past books just for people who want to take a books just for people who want to take a books just for people who want to take a deeper dive? deeper dive? deeper dive? >> Oh, thank you. So, this book is called >> Oh, thank you. So, this book is called >> Oh, thank you. So, this book is called Go Gentle. It's behind me. Go Gentle. Go Gentle. It's behind me. Go Gentle. Go Gentle. It's behind me. Go Gentle. Um, it's called It's a uh a novel. And Um, it's called It's a uh a novel. And Um, it's called It's a uh a novel. And the other books that I've written, um, the other books that I've written, um, the other books that I've written, um, the one that people would know more, um, the one that people would know more, um, the one that people would know more, um, than the others is called Where'd You than the others is called Where'd You than the others is called Where'd You Go, Bernardet? I think that was your Go, Bernardet? I think that was your Go, Bernardet? I think that was your gateway uh book, Dan, into my universe. gateway uh book, Dan, into my universe. gateway uh book, Dan, into my universe. Um I wrote a book called uh Today Will Um I wrote a book called uh Today Will Um I wrote a book called uh Today Will Be Different and one called This One Is Be Different and one called This One Is Be Different and one called This One Is Mine. And so uh Go Gentle uh is is uh my Mine. And so uh Go Gentle uh is is uh my Mine. And so uh Go Gentle uh is is uh my fourth book and um I'm very feel very fourth book and um I'm very feel very fourth book and um I'm very feel very fortunate to be able to be talking about fortunate to be able to be talking about fortunate to be able to be talking about it. So thank you. it. So thank you. it. So thank you. >> Where'd you go? Bernardet was my >> Where'd you go? Bernardet was my >> Where'd you go? Bernardet was my gateway, but I had met you before that. gateway, but I had met you before that. gateway, but I had met you before that. I met you and didn't know I didn't know I met you and didn't know I didn't know I met you and didn't know I didn't know anything really and I just liked you and anything really and I just liked you and anything really and I just liked you and then I was at a book sale at my kids then I was at a book sale at my kids then I was at a book sale at my kids school and saw that there there you go school and saw that there there you go school and saw that there there you go where'd you go Bernardet was available where'd you go Bernardet was available where'd you go Bernardet was available so I bought it read it and loved it and so I bought it read it and loved it and so I bought it read it and loved it and then we stayed being friends then we stayed being friends then we stayed being friends >> exactly that was a really awesome text >> exactly that was a really awesome text >> exactly that was a really awesome text that I still remember getting from you that I still remember getting from you that I still remember getting from you that was like a year later like hey by that was like a year later like hey by that was like a year later like hey by the way I read that book I was so happy the way I read that book I was so happy the way I read that book I was so happy that was very nice of you thank you for that was very nice of you thank you for that was very nice of you thank you for for texting me Yeah, for texting me Yeah, for texting me Yeah, >> I sent a similar text after I read uh Go >> I sent a similar text after I read uh Go >> I sent a similar text after I read uh Go Gentle, which in my opinion is is even Gentle, which in my opinion is is even Gentle, which in my opinion is is even better. But where'd you go, Bernardet? better. But where'd you go, Bernardet? better. But where'd you go, Bernardet? Was amazing. Was amazing. Was amazing. >> This is even better. So, you just keep >> This is even better. So, you just keep >> This is even better. So, you just keep getting better. getting better. getting better. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> All right. Um Maria, thanks again for >> All right. Um Maria, thanks again for >> All right. Um Maria, thanks again for coming on. coming on. coming on. >> Thank you, Dan. This is fun.