The Ancient Philosophy That Makes Anxiety Optional | Maria Semple

Key Takeaway

Keep a sign on your desk that says 'Dig it, baby.' Before doing any work, ask yourself if you truly love what you're about to create. If you don't dig it, walk away and wait until you do. This simple filter ensures you only produce work you're genuinely excited about, transforming obligation into joy and dramatically improving the quality of your output.

Episode Overview

Author Maria Simple discusses her novel 'Go Gentle' and her deep practice of Stoicism, including her daily morning routine that combines Stoic philosophy with journaling. She explores the tension between Stoic principles of controlling only what's within your power and the messy, chaotic nature of being human—particularly when it comes to desire and love.

Full Transcript

Transcript of The Ancient Philosophy That Makes Anxiety Optional | Maria Semple from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Maria Simple, welcome to the show. Thank you. I'm excited to be here. Dan, your book is awesome. Go Gentle. Everybody should read it. Um I I was lucky enough to get an uh an early copy uh because we're friends. Um and yeah, just let me start by saying congratulations. congratulations. congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. It's exciting for me that it's out in the world now and people are starting to read it. It's very cool. Yeah, it's super cool. I mean, I'll just speak selfishly that that having talked to you throughout, you know, I I I we met each other a couple years ago and and just being able to watch you do this thing u in the middle of a period of like real personal tumult uh on your side.

Um yeah, it's very cool to watch it from soup to nuts. Oh, thank you. Yeah. To go from I'm sure we met when I was desparing that the book wouldn't come together and probably also giddy that I was writing the greatest thing ever. It's all, you know, you cover every single thing when you're writing a novel. It takes, you know, years and you kind of feel all the emotions while you're doing it. You had a um you had a sign that you put on your computer while you were writing it and I think it it said, "Dig it, baby." Yes.

Yes. Yes. What was Can you just unpack that? Yeah. So, I have a sign that says, "Dig it, baby." And what it what it does for me is it basically tells me that if I'm not loving what I'm writing, I should just get up and walk away and just wait till I dig it. Like, I'm I'm not going to start right. I'm not going to continue writing unless I fully dig it. And that um the the story of that is that many years ago um u uh my former partner and I produced this show together and he was doing a series of monologues and he'd never done monologues before in his life and he'd never performed and I had gone to a Buddhist meditation retreat, a week of silence and the only time we could speak was when a guy named Scott Kelman who was an acting teacher came in and and did with us something he called the work.

And it was this I guess they were acting exercises. I I'm still kind of unclear about what an acting teacher was doing in a Buddhist meditation um silent retreat, but he came and he was really reminded me of of um like Roy Shider and in um uh and all that jazz when he was playing Bob FSY. He was just like a seriously cool cat, this guy. And he would just make us go really deep and and kind of stand in front of people and and look at them and kind of tolerate being looked at and then all the emotions that came up from it.

So maybe there was some kind of Buddhist stuff, but so I really like this guy. And right before um our opening night of of this show, uh George, my ex, was kind of nervous about for the first time going up in front of an audience. And so I said, "I think we should bring in this guy, Scott Kelman. I think that he's going to be able to help you." So Scott came in and watched George do these monologues. and George um like stared at this spot like high up on the ceiling and just read and delivered the monologue, his first one.

And then Scott said to George, "Who are you looking at?" Um and George said, "Well, I'm just looking above everybody because I feel like if I look at anyone, I'm going to get really distracted. Like there's going to be friends of mine in the audience and I don't want to have to look at them because I don't know how to do this." And then Scott said, "Okay, I want you to do it again and this time I want you to look people in the eyes and I want you to dig it, baby." And and I just really like that, the idea of just like look people in the eyes and this time dig it baby.

And so that's what I have on my on my desk. And the the look people in the eyes is kind of um important too cuz it's just it's about being sincere and wanting to connect and and kind of taking a risk in in that way. So So that's kind of what I like to write by. write by. write by. I love that. I didn't actually know the full story even though you and I had talked about the sign uh over dinner uh several times. it so gives it a lot more color hearing the full story.

And it feels to me like life advice not only for the creative act where you know we those of us who do creative work can fall prey I think to the sunk cost fallacy you know it's like oh I've been working on this for a while so I got to finish it even if it it's a slog I've been there but also for like life uh for all of life you know just whatever we're doing let's actually dig it let's actually be here for it. Absolutely.

And just like a willingness to commit to things without any other voice in your head, you know, it's like the resentment and you know that that's there's a lot of stoicism in that. Senica writes a lot about it and as you know my book has a lot of stoicism in it but that's a really big thing that there's a lot of quotes about that that I really like which is just like you know show up and show up with just like pure gung-ho spirit. Uh, that's a a modern word.

They didn't use gung-ho back then, but um but that's what it is. And I I do think it is a it it um it it's very simplifying, you know, in a way. You just kind of have to make the decision like I get to do this, you know? That's like a thing that I really like. Instead of I have to do this, you shift it to I get to do this. And that's like the kind of energy I really feel like one should bring to everything.

Do you never fall back into a place that I and I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I I feel like too often I'm trudging through my to-do list and so I'm not digging it. I'm just doing it. Um, does that ever happen to you? And if so, how do you pull yourself out of trudging to digging? digging? digging? Well, well, to-do list is not a good example cuz I really love getting [ __ ] done, you know? Like I feel like in a way that's really what writing a novel is for me.

It's just this like massive to-do list. So I really bring like fish joyful energy energy to like tasks, you know, and having to do anything. So to-do list is not the best thing. I think it might be more like working out or something, you know, for me. But but so anything that's just like planning you know that it could it making decisions planning coming up with some kind of scheme I find very creative actually you know like even a to-do list of oh how am I going to get that done who do I call first oh no maybe I should call the other person first before this you know that's like very happy for me to be doing all that and so that that's not really hard but I'd say I'd say the I'd say when I'm doing something I don't really like to do, I really try to to um think of it as as character building, you know, is is like I' I'm going to go through this and I'm going to be better on the other side and I will be stronger on the other side and kind of um grittier maybe on the other side.

So that brings joy to it, I think. So what I'm hearing as a throughine in throughout this very young conversation, you know, that we're just starting is a is bringing cognitive reframes to stuff. to stuff. to stuff. Does that does that land for you? Oh, very much so. And in fact, there's something that I've been um that that we'll I'm sure talk about the stoicism that I'm very into, but um there was a quote that I was reading that it said that stoics try to bring the most useful perspective to a situation.

And I really like that because I feel like yes, it's reframing. I feel like everything you can reframe and I really like the word useful cuz it's so simple and it's like oh yeah there's like a useful way of looking at something and there's not. Epictitus says there's like two handles um by which you can hold like a vase I I think is what he's referring to. Hold something and hold it by the right handle. And so I do think that if that that refraraming that refraraming that refraraming um is is useful, it it makes your existence better.

And I think that what I really like about it is that it really to me activates my imagination. You know, if something like bad has happened, you know, quote unquote, or you know, I don't get what I want or there's a frustrating person. I actually think it's really fun to just get your imagination like fired up and just think like, oh, what's another way of looking at this again that I'm into my like to-do list energy and I'm then excited. I'm like like psyched about this situation like oh there's a way that's I can reframe this to make it like to make it positive.

It is amazing the simple power of changing your perspective uh to alleviate uh dread uh anxiety, anger, whatever. anger, whatever. anger, whatever. Yeah, it really is. It's kind of crazy that it's so available, you know, at any given time. Like nothing's keeping you from doing it, you know, you're just 100% in control of it. It's just readily um there for the taking, you know, should should you choose. Yeah. I I think the biggest obstacle is remembering. Um I think the biggest problem in all of whatever you want to call it, personal growth, self-improvement, spiritual development, whatever.

The biggest problem is remembering. You can listen to Maria hold forth on stoicism, which she's about to do. Um and then you know, you go through the rest of your day and you're pulled into the tides of forgetting and and then a ripe opportunity comes up for reframing and you just forget to do it completely. And and I think that that's why practice is really important, you know, and I think everything like, you know, meditation is a practice and I have a stoic practice and I I think that without a practice, it's just a, you know, it's just like something that makes you like all psyched to uh change your life.

I used to always say like like um God my life is I I heard something that changed my life and now I've forgotten it. You know, it's like and I think that's what you go through if you don't just go through almost like the drudgery of practice and that's what it's for, right? So you can internalize it and that and that this stuff starts to become second nature or the first maybe not the first response cuz sometimes that's just visceral, you know, of just dread or shame or panic or whatever it is, but maybe like very quickly afterwards you can go to the the reframing thing and it almost feels natural.

I love what you're saying and yes, I've been humbled so often when uh taking the Buddhist or stoic or psychologically wise approach is the eighth reflex on my part um after you know um a million other less constructive roots. But at least it's and damage. Yeah. And the damage is done, right? And now it's like, oh Jesus, now all these apology emails I have to write and all of this [ __ ] you know? But it's so I almost think on just a basic level that's why you should do it.

It just like saves you a lot of time. time. time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know is is um is is the I I have a phrase that I like that I say the low road always dogs you know is it's just it just makes life a lot easier not to have taken the low road because it will stay with you. Yep. Damn it. Um the lower road can be really fun for Oh my god. you delicious nanoc the best. the best. the best. Um, all right, Maria.

So, you're you're let's talk about stoicism. So, the the the the protagonist in your new novel, which again is called Go Gentle and is phenomenal. Um, phenomenal. Um, phenomenal. Um, uh is a uh uh an expert in stoicism and and has um written books about it and is a teacher of it. Um, and and this is based, as I understand it, in your own deep personal interest in stoicism. So, I'd be interested in hearing your story. How did you get interested in stoicism? And and what what is it for those of us who are uninitiated?

Well, uh, okay. So, I got into stoicism maybe um 12 years ago or so, and I I think I just read about it in the New York Times, and I read a book about it. Uh William Irvine wrote a book um called I don't know, we'll we'll we can look it up in the show notes or whatever. The Art of Living. He's been on the show, so I'll put I'll put the episode, right? I'll put that episode. episode. episode. Okay. The Guide to the Good Life.

I think that's his William Irvine. Okay. So, it's just this really great kind of intro to stoicism. And I read it and was really turned on and and I think that what turned me on initially was this perspective thing, you know, which was which it but I'd say the the basis of it, as I understand it, is that, you know, there's things that you can control. There's things that you can't control. your job is to only focus on what you can control and that's virtue and everything else you just cheerfully throw over to fate.

And so that sounds, you know, suspiciously like um the AA serenity prayer, you know, and a lot of other kind of systems. Um and it was formulated 300 BC, you know, by the Greeks. And it's kind of crazy that that it's so old and it really is you know only focus on what you can control. And um you know cognitive behavioral therapy is you know is very much rooted in stoicism. And so that's that's that I I think for anybody in any program the first time you hear something like that like or let them write the mail you know just like let it like whatever is going on whatever people whatever is going to happen in the outside world it's not your business just concern yourself with yourself it's a it's really energizing and it's a super turnon you know and again it's one of those things where you're like yeah my life is going to be different whatever you know I'm now going to live this like really happy superior life and so uh I started reading the stoics themselves um Senica Epictitus and uh Marcus Aurelius and I just uh started kind of invented this program for myself because I didn't know anyone who was a stoic or anyone who was into it and so I just started every day sitting down and reading stoicism and figuring out my philosophy of life and writing it down and doing these journal exercises that I kind of created for myself.

And that's how I start every day. And it's really fun, you know. It's like it's actually very hard to turn myself away from it, you know. And then I read some of the I don't know. I just like putter around with my stoicism and get very happy and and focused, you know, and it's like to to me um it really helps. One of the things I do, it's like clarify your purpose. That's a big thing in stoicism is just like what you know what um what am I going to do that day?

What is today about? What virtue? And the word virtue is kind of problematic because it sounds churchy or whatever, but it's the four virtues. Um I think they're Plato is um wisdom, courage, justice, and temperance. So it's not judgy. It's just about your own character. And so um so anyway, so then I got really into it and I'm still into it. It's kept it's kept alive in me for all these years. So the the the the turn on here, I just want to dig into this is there's something, if I'm hearing you correctly, really invigorating and empowering empowering empowering about focusing on what you can control and letting everything else fall to the wayside.

wayside. wayside. Exactly. and and and the more you kind of study it uh and learn about it, the more wisdom you see in it, you know, and the more you really see that there's actually nothing outside of yourself you can control when you really start looking at it that way. So, it really positively reinforces things. And then there's the um yeah, there's the reframing that's fun, you know, that that I think is is is good and easy. And then pretty soon it it's I I mean you you've gone through this with with your meditation practice is you'll be in a situation and you'll just kind of notice that you have just experienced it in a very in in not very maybe even a slightly different way than you might have a year before where it just doesn't stress you out or cause you anxiety and you're like oh wow I think something must have worked along the way.

I don't quite know how, but some there's been a shift and I I have a much more peaceful existence. existence. existence. Tell me about the this morning p practice that you do. Can you just really walk us through because it sounds like you've invented it and so there isn't some isn't some isn't some workbook people can buy. So, can you just give us the steps in case we want to replicate it for ourselves? Yes. Oh, shoot. I wish I brought my stoic book with me. I almost did.

But um it's and and so it's this little book that's now about 60 pages long that I've rewritten about 15 or 20 times that I keep writing and improving and then going back to Kinko's and having them print up a new one and put a little coil binder on it and then do it, you know, when it gets too marked up, I I make a new one. And so I start out by by writing down my philosophy of life which is um my philosophy of life is to bring my actions, desires and so I say no my goal for today is to bring my actions, desires and thoughts into line with my philosophy of life.

My philosophy of life is virtue equals freedom. Virtue is the only good. its pursuit is the only guarantee of abiding good cheer, secure joy and a tranquil mind. So that took like 10 years for me to write. Okay. I So like that's my philosophy of life. And so I write that down every day to remind myself. And then I go to the four virtues and I have um you know adjectives listed next to the virtues. And if it's like wisdom, I'll go to one of my adjectives next to wisdom, you know.

um which is like you know sound judgment or something because wisdom really is about just separating what you can control from what you can control. Um, and then justice is about like there's a lot of kind of meta in that, you know, it's about friendliness, benevolence. It's not about like being a justice warrior. It's about just like being a good human being, you know, to others. Then there's courage, which is like about work. Um, and it's like love of work. Um there's a lot about like not falling in with the mob, you know, about like moral courage, um about endurance.

And then under temperance, it's about kind of discipline, patience, speaking less, um speaking kindly. So, I work I kind of pick little subcategories of virtues that I need to work on that day, you know, and then I kind of I journal all this out. I journal it out and then it's like clarify my purpose and I figure out what my purpose is that day. And then there's like a list of prompts. Today I did um I think today I did I get to do this. That's what I did.

I was like, I get to go and talk about my book with Dan. Like, this is really amazing that I get to do this, you know? Like, I love Dan. Like, there's a podcast studio down the street in my publishers's house that's all set up, you know, that's like all this good stuff is happening and it's about not like, oh, [ __ ] I got to go do this thing with Dan and you know, it's like cuz it could I love you, but you know what I'm saying?

We all can just slide into that. So it's basically just like reframing it so it's really positive and then I'll read the Stoics and I you know and then I read other philosophy. I'm reading some Rouso now. I'm trying to I'm not trying to but I enjoy branching out of it. Um and uh and yeah then and then I'm like ready to write. write. write. You know what can be good for your brain health? Learning a new language. Engaging in mentally demanding tasks like language learning helps build what's called cognitive reserve.

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Yes. And then you uh do some reading um what what might be cheesily called inspirational reading of stoic stoic philosophers etc etc. And then it culminates in some sort of journal prompt around how what how how am I going to back to back to today. How am I going to apply one aspect of this very rich philosophical tradition to what's on my docket for today? Did I roughly restate that question? question? question? Yeah. No, that's exactly it. And then you're like, let's go. Let's go do this thing.

You know, and and and and what's really good is I've set See, here's the important thing is that I've set it up so that every single thing that I'm that I set out to do is 100% in my control. you know, like like for instance, when I was coming down here, like what I I wasn't it wasn't like uh what I wanted to do today, it wasn't like I want Dan to love me. I want to sell a million books on the podcast. I want to become like an influencer.

It was like I want to be on time. I I don't want to interrupt. I feel like I have. So, I'm going to go into a shame shame spiral, but try not to interrupt. Try not to swear. And those were like the only three things I I really intended to do today was was to right were those three things. And and I'm like maybe do a B+ or something. But uh it was like I wanted to be professional like love of work. I wanted to show up with just like my full self.

And so that's what's really fun about it is it's it's not like you you set out for the day to like write a best-selling novel, you know? it it's because you can't control that. You set out for the day to do like a good day of work and to focus and to concentrate and then not to just like waste your time on the internet and take naps and things like that. It it's so that's what's kind of so fun about it and that and that it's like you only desire what's in your control.

That's like a really big thing and that's like actually quite radical is to shift. And that's why in my in my um in the the the top half of my philosophy of life is it's like to to to line up my desires, thoughts, and actions. Those are the three disciplines I think of stoicism. It's thoughts, desires, and action. But desire is really the big one, which which would be a very good segue to my book and my character, but I feel like you want to keep talking about stoicism.

So we can put a pin in the segue. No, no, no. I I want to follow your lead here. Um Okay. Because actually I think it doesn't take us far field from stoicism because because your your book uh start your protagonist starts the book in act one in this um uh in this state of feeling like she's got it all figured out and in many ways she does. she does. she does. Right. Right. Right. And and Right. And she's and I just interrupted. There we go.

So, it's like now I've just Okay. Um, but that's See, you're a friend. That's the problem is I feel like if I didn't know you, I friends apparently I steamroll over and I don't even care. That's like what it is to be a friend of mine. Um, but but so she basically has figured out that the key to life is to desire only what she has. You know, her name is Adora Hazard. She's a recently divorced um u woman who's moved to New York with her teenage daughter.

um ve very similar to my story uh lives on the Upper West Side and uh and she has kind of figured out that if you desire what you have then you're happy. And so she's set up this really fantastic life for herself. She's single. She kind of assumes that she'll never find love because she's kind of later in life. So she doesn't desire love. She um desires the company of her friends and she lives on the the um the seventh floor of an apartment building and a lot of other single women live in the other apartments and they call themselves the coven and they just like it's like the best smartest people her favorite people in the world and they kind of share Netflix passwords and do things and the idea is when they get old they'll all just like take care of each other.

Um, and and she has this she's she's the moral tutor to a a a very wealthy eccentric family who lives on Fifth Avenue and particularly to their twin boys. And so after they go to their private school and they're wearing their uniforms and they uh they come back with all their va really terrible like status obsessed values, she has to sit there and kind of talk them through it and try to like be an u do moral training for them. And so she's quite you know pleased with herself I should say which which um is kind of one of the digs against philosophers.

You know, it's like the arrogance of the philosopher. You know, it's like the Christians, that's how they kind of um what when Christianity came along, they would talk about how, you know, philosophers who were kind of running rampant until Christianity were uh you know, believed that reason could solve everything. You know, you didn't need faith. And so they were so they got a I guess a bad rap because they didn't believe in faith. they just thought, "No, I have everything I need to solve all the problems." And so there was kind of an arrogance to it.

And um even though Adore is not particularly arrogant, I did just kind of write it just with a little kind of flavor of being pleased with herself. And so um so then what happens is early on she meets a handsome stranger at the ballet, a man at the ballet. Um and she and and he pulls her into this kind of international mystery and and Adora kind of realizes that maybe um like desire is nothing uh is that she hasn't snuffed it out as well as she thought she did.

you know that in fact there is something in like a flame that is burning inside of her and this guy awakes it and then this whole plot awakes it and then we kind of go back and learn about what happened to her and why she kind of turned to stoicism and uh why like character became very important to her and the story she'd been telling herself and so it it's all you know my books are crazy it's a pretty crazy plot um but but it's very very philosophyheavy which is my this aspect of exactly uh how this book is crazy crazy crazy is it is it in the end something of a repudiation of stoicism then you know it's kind of interesting is that I I I think that one of the things that's to me kind of interesting is that you know it stoicism doesn't love chaos you know and and I kind of like chaos you know like you say, "Oh, I love the low road." You know, it's like I I mean, you don't really love the road low road, but I mean, it's like kind of asking you not to be human, you know, to want to not want to like lust or just like give into your appetites or, you know, to just like do the wrong thing and just like feel good, you know, sending a hundred angry texts and becoming completely unhinged in the moment.

Like that is being human, you know? And so I feel like there's um there's there's there's certainly a denial of that in stoicism, you know, of a stoic sage. And so, and I think love is it's, you know, especially in the early stages, as I was writing about in my book, it's just by definition, you know, chaotic and you're unhinged and you're, you know, desiring what you don't have and you'll do anything to get it and to keep it and all of that kind of good great [ __ ] you know, that that love is.

And so I think at the end she kind of, you know, um is still a stoic and but maybe has has uh has modified it a little bit. Where are you with stoicism? I love stoicism, but I will say I'm also kind of now uh getting into Nichze who really hated the stoics. Um and and and he's pretty he he has his own set of problems, but but there's something about just like the will um just the creative will that I think is just really fascinating.

Um but but I will always I don't know that I will ever not um do my stoic practice because it really does make me feel good, you know, when I it it's just now a practice. I mean I don't know if you meditate do you meditate like every morning, Dan? Do you start out the day? It uh it really depends on the day. Okay. So So I So I feel like and I don't know if if you I certainly don't feel this when I meditate, which is why I rarely meditate, but I don't feel good when I meditate, you know?

Like I feel bad when I meditate. I will say sorry. I know this is a meditation podcast. supposed to be. But I mean, I just judge myself too much, you know, and it's like and I get anxious. I get like have all this anxiety and and I think stoicism kind of in a way for a practice just at least makes me feel good while I'm doing it. I'm not just like like sweating with shame, you know, while I'm doing it. Sorry. Is this not a good thing to say on this podcast?

No. No. There's no such thing of a bad thing to say on this show. And it's not really I mean we talk about meditation and Buddhism a lot but it's really about we do we've done tons on stoicism we do sleep and we it's all aspects of life. Um, Ken, maybe this is a little bit cute what I'm going to say. Um, and I I do want to get back to stoicism and your take on it and what you said about Niche, which I I need to learn more about cuz I don't fully understand.

But just to respond to what you said about um meditation, which is very common, the experience you're describing. Uh, and the cute part is I I I do want to reframe it if I can for you that might and maybe this will be helpful and this is not designed to browbe you into meditating. Oh, please help change the way you and some others think about it. The point of meditation is not to feel any kind of way. The point is to be cool with whatever you're feeling.

And that leads to a kind of meta equinimity where you realize that whatever comes up externally or internally, you can handle it because you've sat with it. You've sat with all the ugliness of your mind. Mhm. Uh and survived. Um one of my favorite little little little uh apherisms, it's a coinage of Joseph Goldstein, who I know you're familiar with, my my favorite meditation teacher, and and and he he often tells people it's okay, which does not mean everything's okay. It just means it's okay to feel whatever you're feeling right now.

And that creates a kind of equinimity that allows you to navigate all life's ups and downs with more with more with more skill. Does that make sense what I'm saying? saying? saying? No, it does. And then you bring that into everything. Then there's just kind of a general benevolence that then you will greet the day and other people with, right, once you kind of give it to yourself. I I can really see that. I can see that. But I get, you know, I have the same issue you have, which is anxiety is I feel like when I sit to meditate, meditate, meditate, I just like my heart races, you know, and and it it feels like it wouldn't be racing if I weren't meditating.

So why why am I putting myself in this situation? situation? situation? You know, maybe you have an answer for that. that. that. I do. I do a two two-part answer. Two-part answer. One is you can think about it like first well before I give you the two-part answer the I want to signal again. signal again. signal again. I know I know you've never you've never been the the seller the peddler. I know. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Two-part answer. One is you can think of it as a a kind of exposure therapy.

You know the anxiety is a prominent and massively salient feature of your mind and my mind and it whether we meditate or not it's going to be there. And so meditation is a way to kind of learn to work with this gnarly inconvenient um psychological feature or bug um uh more skillfully. So that's one answer. The second answer is I there are types of meditation that I think go right at anxiety in particular. You used this word before, meta, not mea like uh like uh like uh um the name of the company that owns Instagram, but meta, which is a kind of benevolence or friendliness.

And that style of meditation where you systematically envision certain people, send them good vibes, including yourself, uh which can be very cheesy as you know. Um it was designed by the Buddha. It is said uh as an antidote to fear. Um and so you know and it makes sense. Love is kind of the opposite of fear. And so if you can just generate that skill of warmth, compassion, it pulls you out of spirals of fear and anxiety. So that's my two-part answer. Okay. So I love the meta practice.

Okay. It's I just it's like a drug. I just feel like a runner's high after I do it. So here's my question. If I um if like my practice was to sit down in the morning and like listen do you have it on your app? I'm imagining a meta practice. Okay. So let's say I go to your app and I do meta every morning. That doesn't that feels like cheating for me as meditation. Like I for you know like I have this idea that I need to sit there and empty my thoughts and if something goes by watch it like a cloud or whatever and then but like could I just every morning do a meta practice like if you guide me or another teacher I like literally listen to a tape and I'm not like alone quietly with my thoughts.

Yes. It's a million% you can do exactly what you're describing. And just to say on the clearing your mind thing, that's impossible. And that's a a pernicious misconception that people carry into their meditation practice that makes it miserable because it they're trying to do an impossible thing. So there's no cheating. Another Josephism is whatever works, do what works. If meditate, if doing no meditation is what works for you, I want you to do no meditation. Okay? If doing some meditation of a specific variety is what works for you, then do that.

Okay. God, you know, I'm actually gonna do this. I'm gonna do about I'm gonna do like a 10day meta practice because I love the meta practice, like I say. So, that's, you know, like I go into it without dread. I'd be like, "Oh, yeah. You get to sit down and like send good wishes to the stranger, you know, which I love doing." Um, so, so, okay, good. That Okay, and I'll report back. But this kind of brings us back to your character and your story and and also your personal story.

Um because we were talking before we went down this little rabbit hole uh about the limits of stoicism and I'm wondering if deliberately you know the the stoicism's reputation and I'm not an expert in it. Stoicism's reputation as kind of clinical and reasonable um is missing the the warm and gooey piece that is the inevitable result I believe of loving kindness practice. kindness practice. kindness practice. Right. I I mean I there's a lot to be said here and you can pull quotes and you know like I say justice is really about you know friendliness and being compassionate and the difficult people that you give love to and all of that but um I don't really think that's what it's about you know like I like I think if you really wanted to defend stoicism that you could say oh no it it's in there it's all in there.

Um it is pretty cold you know it it is pretty uh it's purely rational you know and and I think it is rational to love people and to be kind to people and and uh to embrace difficult people you know uh but but it's all in stoicism it's like rooted in in rationality you So they they say it's part of being human. So maybe that gets a little closer, you know, that that's what being a human is. And we have to get along with people. And you know what's what is it?

What's good for the hive is what's good for the bee or what's good for I don't know what be is good for the hive or whatever it is. Like we all have to work together in a system. Um but no, it's not. Yeah. It it I I and and I'm not an expert. I mean, I I spend a lot of time on it, but I I certainly don't hold myself out an expert. We should get Ryan Holiday on the phone because he would have a good answer for this.

Um but I think that uh that the um that that just about being purely loving, I I'm not seeing that in the in the text of stoicism, you know, just like running around joyfully and giving love. giving love. giving love. Yeah. Oh, so just to say about Ryan Holidayiday, he's been on the show several times. I'll put a link to my interview in the show notes. I'll put a link to my interviews with Ryan. But uh and I'm sure he would have a lot to say on this subject.

But getting back to you and your main character Adora, um it seems like the the while you and Adora both continue to love and practice stoicism, there is this addition of um a little bit more messiness and warmth and wild love that you're all you're innovating on top of it. it. it. Yes. and just allowing that. And you know, I'll tell you something that I was writing that was kind of one of the sparks for writing the book or there's this section in the middle of the book that's a going into Adora's past and and and and and one of the things that I really love about um about stoicism and what I wanted to write about and particularly as it pertained to me is that I realized as I was studying stoicism that I'd never thought about my personal character wi-i which was really horrifying to me, you know, that I I was raised Catholic, but I I feel like they didn't talk about character.

They just talked about like miracles that Jesus did. And if you didn't believe it, you'd have to like say more Hail Marys. It was not not a good priest I went to, apparently. But it was just like I I didn't learn about like just being in control of of your character and always doing the right thing and having like moral courage and separating that out from kind of status seeking and the and and what what society is telling you will make you happy. you know, all the bainted bounties as as if we've called them before of just, you know, success and reputation and money and all that stuff.

And I I realized that as I started getting into stoicism that I was I just kind of internalized all this garbage without really thinking about it. And and so that that's really what I wanted to write about was kind of character, you know, and that that Adora kind of felt like she had bad character because she wanted kind of the wrong things, you know, she was like like I was. I conveniently made her a former TV writer in Hollywood as as I was. And and she was younger when she did it as as was I.

Um, but you know, she wanted she was chasing all these things that that society tells you are going to make you happy. And so I think one of my real turnons with stoicism was just kind of separating out all of that stuff, you know, questioning that really. they they go the Stoics go really hard at that does not make you happy. You know, that is like the like act the path of suffering to to pursue any of that. Even if you get it, it's going to make you miserable.

And so that's just something I hadn't heard. That's like really fresh and new. you know, if you're just sitting around mindlessly munching down, you know, just the messages of society, it's like, oh, wow, there's another way and I don't have to be like a toxic person, you know, carrying this stuff around with me. And so that's kind of ador Adora's journey as well, like you you see, and that was really fun for me to write about. about. about. What was the term you used? Bainted bounties.

What? bounties. What? bounties. What? Oh, a b a bainted bounty. I you know what I use that you don't remember? um at dinner once a few months ago and you really liked it. So I was giving you another shot at another I was giving you another shot at it, Dan. Um that's so embarrassing. I My memory is like Swiss cheese. No, it doesn't matter. It was so minor. No, no. It's what Senica calls kind of the um the things that get dangled in front of you as uh as things that you you know the Stoics call them externals that anything that's outside of your control that and often you desire them.

But so the bainted bounties are basically like you know riches or something that you think like oh it's it's bountiful but it's like it's like baited with um you know with treachery or with you know with negativity and you think you're going for something that's going to make you happy but it's actually um it's it's you know it's something that that you snap at you know uh and and yet it's it's it's so is it baited about it B A I T baited baited. Okay. baited.

Okay. baited. Okay. Baited bounty. Baited bounty. Baited bounty. So, so, so that I probably said this at dinner and don't remember that either, but but but uh the Buddha talked about the terrible bait of the world. Um Um Um Okay, that's what it is. The baited bounty. Yeah. bounty. Yeah. bounty. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what does he say? The the bait of the world. the world. the world. It's all the same stuff. you know, if you're he also said, "What the world calls happiness, I I call suffering, and what the world calls suffering, I call happiness." And so, it's all about the the downside of desire.

He he he's not anti-pleasure, but he he describes it, and this is quite a um simile here, um as being like licking honey from the edge of a razor. Um Okay. Ouch. Okay. So there's there's um yeah, we need to eat and reproduce and lots. He's not saying we we need a um completely um monkish, although he was a monk uh life. Uh it it's that if if if that's where you're placing all of your hope for happiness and fulfillment, it is unlikely to provide. Right?

And that's and that's what this is. The Stoics have one of my favorite terms just because it's so clunky and it's so like such a bad translation but I don't know how else to do it is they they um so I think it's Senica mainly who says that that that you can want money and pleasure and reputation. Okay, that that but but that you have but that if you get it, you have to get it without attachment. you you know what I'm saying that you can like as long as you're not attached to it you can have it which was convenient for him because he was like the richest man in the empire you know so he had to like come up with a workaround right about like I'm sitting here in my robes you know with all of of my of my enslaved people around me so how do I um circle that square but so but but they call he he he he puts externals which again is anything that's not your character into two categories and and he calls externals in Indifference I N D I F E R E N Ts, right?

Indifference. They are like an indifference. And so he calls them indifference. And he says that that there are preferred indifference, which is like, you know, comfort and pleasure and money. And then there's dispreferred indifference. And I just think that's a really funny term is a dispreerred indifference. So when something really bad happens, I'm like that was a dispreferred indifferent. you know that that these things that happen you can um you still can want good things to happen to you. You know what I mean? And I think that that does allow for humanity because we are human.

I want my book to do well, you know, and I don't think that that makes me like a shallow bad person that I want people to read my book. I want it to get out in the world, but I if I'm just like not a if like my whole sense of tranquility doesn't hinge on that, then you know that's okay. I don't eat a ton of meat, but when I do, I really want it to be high quality and responsible, sustainable, healthy, environmentally friendly. That's important to me.

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M it's a very narrow path that I hear you describing which is uh you don't want to deny your humanity. You're a a person who has spent several years working to create this uh beautiful book. So you want it to do well. You can't help that you want it to do well and you're doing these morning rituals that help you sainely tune into the fact that um if you want things that are beyond your control that is a reliable wellspring of unhappiness. unhappiness. unhappiness. Exactly. Exactly.

And so you know that's and so during the day if I'm writing you know like I say I want to focus. I want to just try to do the best work I can. Um, and and then and then at the end of the day, I'm happy. And I guess that it is like a matter of faith or not happy, but it's like I've done what I set out to do so I don't have this whole extra thing of like being miserable from from not achieving that.

And then, you know, you put enough of them together and then you've got a product. I guess that's kind of the faith that you have to do. You know, that it's not just about wanting the success of it. You know, I want to finish a book. You know what I'm saying? Like I'm not pretending that I don't want to finish a book. I am not just like totally floating um in in non-attachment, you know? And that's I mean I always find and I'm sure I've talked to you about this is is how do you like get [ __ ] done with non-attachment, right?

How do you how do you get through the day? And we both are accomplished people and we obviously value finishing books, right? and and having like crazy projects that we see to fruition and that takes a lot of self-will, right? It takes a lot of determination and desire and a lot of like like fueled by fantasy, you know, in my case of just and that's all like danger zone, danger zone, you know, but I think you do need that. I think you do need that. How do you balance that?

I don't know. I just I mean I guess I go back to my practice, but I you know I was really I I really believe that like fantasy kind of kept me alive when I was a kid. I was a really lonely kind of unhappy kid and unpopular and I was fat and the bullies would beat me up and I would just really prefer my own company and I would just create these really elaborate fantasy scenarios, you know, of just usually involving um celebrities being in love with me.

Uh but but it was you know these like very happy worlds that were just like highly determined and I would just you know have to be at school or something or I would be like in my fantasy world in the middle of like literally dialogue and then it would be like hold that thought I have to go to class and then like come back and pick up right where I left off you know and I used to love like being alone and I grew up in Aspen Colorado and and and I would always like to be the single on the chairlift, you know, like I always hated it when I'd be in the chairlift line.

I always like kind of pretend I was with somebody and just like get on the chairlift by myself because it was just so happy for me to sit on this chair lift by myself. I would kind of hope the chairlift would stop so I could just sit there and just like live like very intensely in this fantasy world. And so I think that's what made me a novelist, you know, it it made me able to kind of sustain my attention over a long time. It made me think kind of create scenarios that were like extremely pleasurable to me and and I think that that that was a value that I bring to my books that I write.

You know, I try to write like really nice places for people to go even though it's like filled with ideas and suffering in some ways. Like generally I really want to offer someone this like very um kind of overdetermined happy world that that they can live in for a while. So um I'm I'm not going to renounce kind of fantasy and that that that kind of fantasy life. I think it's good. Well to my ear what you've done this beautiful thing I think the term for this is sublimation.

I I think maybe like of taking this difficult aspect of your childhood your childhood your childhood um and then you had this survival mechanism of the fantasy and now you've turned it into art that is a service to the world. the world. the world. Oh, well thank you. Yes. I mean that's a that's a nice way of looking at it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. One last thing to say um as we wind down here um about this balance of trying to do big and meaningful and important and beautiful things in the world without being overly attached.

Um one of the biggest sources of wisdom in my life is the CEO of of our little company. Um her name is Tony. Uh, and we were in a meeting recently about um, uh, my next book and planning a bunch of stuff. And I think she could sense that I was getting revved up and crazy. And she said, "Just keep in mind that good enough is pretty amazing." And I just I was like, I want to get that tattooed on my forehead. Like good enough is pretty amazing.

And uh if if this project is just fine, you know, is good enough, you know, it doesn't have to like put a dent in the universe, it's going to be pretty amazing for the people who read it, for my company, for me, for my family. And that's sanity inducing for me. Very much so. Yeah, I I totally agree. is that and and that you know something recently that's that's similar that I think you you can definitely relate to because I know you've been working on your book for a while is that and I haven't written a book for 10 years this is my first book in 10 years so I'd taken a lot of attempts you know abandoned novels tried this one and it didn't work out and abandoned it tried other things um a friend of mine recently who's having a book come out at the same time mine is at lunch said to me.

Um, what do you want from this book? You know, we were both like really pre pub and she's like, what do you want from this book? And I thought about it and I thought I want to have written this book this book this book now. It's so I really that's like I'm so happy I wrote the book that everything else is gravy, you know, and right? I mean, don't you feel so proud, Dan, that you're going to have written this [ __ ] book finally? I Yes. I need to do a better job of occupying that space because it's very easy for me to get into the realm of uh not being indifferent and uh and and trying to control things that I can't control.

control. control. Mhm. But I I mean but by doing your I don't know. I think by working hard and um and doing your best work that does really set you up for Yes. being able to let go a little bit, you know, it's the only way to do it. Yes. The the Buddhists call it non-attachment to results that you can work incredibly hard on a book or or your child as both of us are parents or or um or um or um uh or anything, any project, you can work really hard on it.

That's what you can control. can control. can control. But then you release it into an entropic universe and uh you have to do your best to be nonattached. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Before I let you go, can you just remind everybody of the name of the book and then also your past books just for people who want to take a deeper dive? deeper dive? deeper dive? Oh, thank you. So, this book is called Go Gentle. It's behind me. Go Gentle. Um, it's called It's a uh a novel.

And the other books that I've written, um, the one that people would know more, um, than the others is called Where'd You Go, Bernardet? I think that was your gateway uh book, Dan, into my universe. Um I wrote a book called uh Today Will Be Different and one called This One Is Mine. And so uh Go Gentle uh is is uh my fourth book and um I'm very feel very fortunate to be able to be talking about it. So thank you. Where'd you go? Bernardet was my gateway, but I had met you before that.

I met you and didn't know I didn't know anything really and I just liked you and then I was at a book sale at my kids school and saw that there there you go where'd you go Bernardet was available so I bought it read it and loved it and then we stayed being friends exactly that was a really awesome text that I still remember getting from you that was like a year later like hey by the way I read that book I was so happy that was very nice of you thank you for for texting me Yeah, I sent a similar text after I read uh Go Gentle, which in my opinion is is even better.

But where'd you go, Bernardet? Was amazing. Was amazing. Was amazing. This is even better. So, you just keep getting better. getting better. getting better. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Um Maria, thanks again for coming on. coming on. coming on. Thank you, Dan. This is fun.