SS-31 Peptide Benefits: Why Ben Pakulski Says This Is the Most Exciting Peptide | Mind Pump 2912

Key Takeaway

The greatest mental health tool isn't therapy or medication—it's physical challenge. Modern life creates a dangerous disconnect: our minds are constantly stressed while our bodies sit idle. This evolutionary mismatch is killing us. The solution? Intentionally curate hard physical challenges. When your body moves through stress, your mind can finally process it. Movement isn't just exercise—it's the bridge between psychological pressure and metabolic harmony. Stop trying to think your way out of anxiety. Move your way through it.

Episode Overview

Ben Pakulski, former pro bodybuilder and performance coach, discusses the peptide revolution, the critical importance of physical challenge in modern life, and how to raise resilient children. He emphasizes the dangers of unregulated peptide sources, shares his framework for teaching kids essential life skills, and explains why movement is the most effective tool for managing stress and anxiety in our psychologically demanding but physically easy world.

Full Transcript

Transcript of SS-31 Peptide Benefits: Why Ben Pakulski Says This Is the Most Exciting Peptide | Mind Pump 2912 from Mind Pump Show. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Well, Ben, welcome back to the show, dude. It's been a while, man. You guys have come a long way. We've missed you. Yeah, man. It's awesome to see how far you guys have come and yet you're still the same. Yeah, I appreciate that's a that's a that's a compliment, actually, especially from someone like you. I love watching your stuff. You're one of the smartest people out there. Definitely the smartest bodybuilder, but I said one of the smartest people cuz I just say smartest bodybuilder. smartest bodybuilder.

smartest bodybuilder. Was that a lot? It doesn't mean much. I think so. But, uh, definitely smart. Got to get the job in. Got to get the job. But definitely one of the smartest people out there and uh since the last time we talked, a lot has changed in our space. Uh when we first met, which was a while ago, uh the like the the use of peptides, the science around peptides, uh and just these new interventions were fringe. They were kind of fringe. Uh we talked about it a little bit off air um back then.

I remember you and I actually had a conversation. Um and now it's like all over the place. It's like like a big deal. So I'd like to start there with you uh with how you feel about that whole space of peptides and what you're seeing and how they're working with people and and some of the research that you've seen around them. It's it's the greatest um opportunity in in performance that exists and a really scary thing at the same time I think because the possibility within peptides uh of healing of improving performance of eradicating potential illness and disease is like nothing else with minimal side effects.

However, with the current landscape that we're in, I believe a [snorts] lot of people are going to hurt themselves because the unregulated nature of these things, like I forget the exact percentage, but something like 90 to 93% of these things are coming in from China. [snorts] And we have no idea what's coming in. So, like if it's the peptide itself that we're administering, you're probably going to get a lot of great benefits, but we don't know if there's long-term negative effects. We don't know if there's other toxins coming with that, your LPS, your heavy metals.

So, like I'm super cautious with people. Like I'm not someone who's going to get behind it and say, "Hey, everyone should be taking peptides until you know the source for sure." Like I very at least start there. Most people buying these research use only peptides. I just can't advocate for it, man. Like unless I know exactly where it's coming from and I know that I can I can follow supply chain. I know the API is great because, you know, I've actually studied this a lot way more than I care to talk about.

And uh there's a lot of places where it can break down in the supply chain cuz everyone wants to cut corners. And in in the peptide space, you're getting a lot of weird people. A lot of like these people are are like they like to live on the fringe, you know, not not the people using it, but the people who own the companies. So like they're they're looking for ways to cut corners. They're looking for ways to to make more money. And I'm like, you know, if you're paying $7 for a bottle of something from China, like how good do you think it possibly is, right?

So the average bottle costs from, you know, you'll know this if you see any Chinese suppliers between $7 and $15. $15. $15. The margins are crazy what they're making. making. making. So I could give you 10 suppliers right now in China that are between $7 and $15. They're charging one to 300 online in research use only and you're like, how good could this be? You know, so I'm I'm um cautious but incredibly optimistic about the whole space. I'm I'm a massive fan of specific peptides and I'd love to get into those, but I also want to start off with like I don't want to just make it sound like a panacea because it's not.

I have a client who got heavy metal uh toxicity from peptides. from peptides. from peptides. Really? Really? Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He got uh like pretty severe mercury uh mercury and aluminum I think he had from he was using peptides. But the thing is with peptides you're not using one, right? You're using five, right? And I was like, man, and he didn't I don't know where they were coming from. This is before he started working with me. It's like, man, this is a big problem. So, yeah, I don't want to be the advocate that says everyone should be using them, although I hope in the future that that is the case and we're all getting them from great sources.

How did he know he had heavy metal toxicity? Was it through testing or symptoms or both? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did he have symptoms of uh heavy metal? Yeah. Again, this is prior to working with me. He came to me sort of like at the tail end of his uh diagnosis. So symptoms just like terrible low energy, um like hard time sleeping, gut issues, like uh diarrhea, like frequent um digestive distress. So like a lot of a lot of weird things happening in his body. body. body.

And and you did the protocol. Uh oh, heavy metals. And was that the first place you looked the peptides? Uh he looked there. So he came to me when it was like cuz he had been tested maybe 6 or 12 months prior and he said he was all clean and then he did this extensive protocol with another coach and so Yeah. Wow. Which peptides are the most exciting? You said there were a few that you really like. Well, a lot of them, right? Um, a lot of them have the potential to be exciting.

Um, you know, everyone knows the basic ones, your BPC, your TB, and I'm super excited about those. But the one that I'm sort of like most excited about right now, other than, you know, your your GLPs, like your um SS31, I don't know if you've tried it, but yeah, it's a remarkable product, remarkable supplement. Like brain benefits, energy benefits. Um, I've I've done quite a bit of a deep dive on on the research there and it's I know it just seems amazing to me. So, I know that one's going to be a pharmaceutical in short time.

Um, but I think that one's a Which one is that one? So, it improves mitochondrial function. What's interesting about that one is so I've used both that and Matsi and I [clears throat] noticed Matsi. I did not notice the SS31. Uh, I don't remember what the dose was, but it was what was recommenire. Really? So, I actually I No, I did push it up. Uh if you if you know my personality, I'll probably uh I don't remember what the dose was, but I do know I started pushing it because that's what they told me.

But what's interesting is I've talked to other people and uh they will like one or the other better. I agree with you. And so now what what's going on there? Because they're diff they're both mitochondrial, you know, improving mitochondrial function, but they're totally different in what they're doing, right? right? right? Yep. Yep. So SS31, as you'll know, is repairing mitochondrial integrity, the cardiolipin molecules, um driving more energy through the system. And I think that one works better for people who have a little more damage to their system, a little maybe more accumulated stress.

So I've got my dad on 10 milligrams three times a week and he's just seeing these remarkable benefits. My dad's 70 years old and has, you know, heart disease and bunch of other stuff. And so 10 milligrams a day is a relatively high dose. Um most people are going to start around two milligrams a day. And so most people most people I've given 2 milligrams a day recommendations to would say I don't feel much. You push it to five like I think I feel something. And at 10, which I'm not saying anyone should do by the way.

Um most people are going to feel a difference. difference. difference. Okay? Okay? Okay? Uh especially cuz remember all the people I I'm talking to are men over 40. So by that point you got some accumulated damage mitochondria for sure. And the harder you push your body the more you're going to have. So with the M C again it could be a genetic thing. I don't know. Yeah. Um, we're still like in the early stages of looking at gene influences cuz it could just be something there.

I don't know. But it seems to be driving more of the AMPK side. If you're not in a in ampk state, if you're in more of an mtor balance state, you may not feel the benefit of uh [snorts] Matzi from what I understand. understand. understand. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, um, way we're sort of thinking about Matzi at this point, at least the way I'm thinking about it is if I'm going to do days of extended fasting or intentionally being in chloric deficit, I'll take some Matsi.

And it seems the research says that it's going to have better benefit when you're in a calorie depleted state. depleted state. depleted state. Okay. Okay. Okay. Oh, interesting. Oh, interesting. Oh, interesting. And I remember you saying a while ago, you're like, "Yeah, a lot of people feel great on Matzi." You didn't notice much uh back then when you took it. No, I still don't. It's really interesting how some people react one way uh versus another. Like that, didn't you like? Yeah, I like the Matsi. I hadn't tried the other ones.

31 ones. 31 ones. 31 um for Matsi. I don't remember whatever the recommend. So, it's probably it's probably could be a dosing thing. It could be a a could be a dosing thing. It could be a sourcing thing. Like, there's so much variance, man. So, what I've learned since studying this stuff, there's pH considerations, there's storage and transport considerations, mixing. So many considerations and you're like, we just don't know, right? Cuz if if you get a product that's been sitting on a shelf somewhere or it's even sitting in somebody's freezer for 6 to 12 months, nobody's done the testing to say like, is this thing because we're like, hey, we put in the freezer, it's good.

Nobody's actually done the testing over 6 and 12 months to see is this thing actually going to still have the same level of uh integrity and efficacy after that amount of time. We think it does, but we don't know until somebody starts doing the testing. So, you're the perfect guy then to I I I'm so glad you're here cuz I love throwing uh things at people like you, just ideas. And so, I've been really interested in these uh myostatin inhibiting uh kind of pathways, right? Uh and there there's a lot of money going into it now because of the GLP u you know, drugs.

uh we got this very powerful appetite suppressing weight loss um intervention, but of course the side effect of eating low calories and not strength training and all that stuff is muscle loss. So they're like how do we figure how do we fix this which you know it's a bunch of lift weights and eat a little more food but they're like what interventions can we implement? And so there's all this money now going into myostatin inhibition. Now the problem with that at least from what I see in the data is when they have uh animal studies where they inhibit myostatin not through gene knockout but rather through intervention is you see muscle growth but you don't see a proportional increase in athletic performance, endurance or strength.

Part of that uh they think is mitochondrial density doesn't improve your so it's more muscle but it's not very good muscle or functional. So I I'm as I'm reading this section, actually, in fact, I was reading this this morning. I'm like, you know, I I bet you a good combination with that would be a MOT or SS31, a mitochondrial peptide to help with maybe those potential side effects of a mitochondrial inhibiting peptide. So do you recall what the data says around people just gaining muscle without training or is it like the the training response is heightened?

No, they don't they just build muscle. So there there was there was one with chimps that was crazy. This is not a human study but with chimps where they they did two uh myioatin inhibitors or three groups uh GLP GLP plus active inhibition plus whatever the other one is that inhibits I don't know if what the other uh pathway was but there were two myostatin inhibitors and the last group they all ate the same amount of food built muscle while losing weight which is crazy because they were in such a low calorie state.

So, there's some powerful potential stuff uh that's coming out there. Episode is brought to you by a sponsor, Ketone IQ. So, check this out. When you get on a ketogenic diet and your body and brain are running on ketones, you notice a few things. One of them is you're sharper. You can think faster. No energy crashes. You got this real good consistent energy. You're probably uplifted. You're in a better mood. That's because ketones are a very clean source of energy. The brain loves running on ketones.

Here's the problem. It's the ketogenic diet. That means you have no carbs. That sucks. Eat no carbohydrates just to get those effects. Some people can do it. Many people don't want to do it. Carbohydrates give you energy for your workouts and they taste good. Well, check it out. There's a company called Ketone IQ that has a product that gives you exogenous ketones. Meaning you take it and now your brain is running on ketones and it doesn't matter if you eat carbs. You got the focus, the energy, the mood uplift.

It's amazing. I use two to three a day. Go to ketone.com/mindpump. On that link, you can get a massive discount. We also have two days left for the mapsupper lower program sale. It's 40% off. Go to mapsupper.com. Use the code launch for the 40% off. Yeah, you know, I had dinner with a guy on Saturday night who was uh selling me on this stuff and I was like, to be honest, I haven't looked at it. Like, so I've got some friends who went down to Mexico and did the the gene therapy, gene editing for fall statin.

Um, you know, I'm not going to share any names, but you guys would know this. Um, and most of them across the board said they put on about 10 pounds of muscle. muscle. muscle. Wow. Wow. Wow. Lost a little bit of fat and it seems to stay. Um, but that's sort of the extent of my interaction with these things because to be honest, one, I don't really have an interest personally in in getting huge amounts of muscle. Well, you're trying to lose you've been trying to lose muscle for a decade.

We met we met that way where you like if I want to put on muscle, it's there. So, it's not a concern for me. But some of my clients are interested in adding muscle, but my approach to adding muscle, I would way rather teach you how to train hard and earn the muscle than just like take something to get it. And I'm like, ah, like I know this world is, you know, we're in a looks maxing world and I just heard that word recently. We just had a thing literally last week where all our our staff came in and they challenged us with all these words that we slang and that was one of them.

All of us are looking, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm seeing meing looks maxing. U so I get why people would want it but like I'm so much more interested in teaching people how to master their body because putting on 10 lbs of muscle because you know speaking from a guy who's been there right I walked on the Olympia stage and I was like oh is this it you know I was like I I accomplished my dream I looked the way I wanted to look and I was like oh it didn't change who I am so what I know as as someone who's done what you know a lot of people want to do is I put on all the muscle it doesn't change my character so just cuz I put on 10 pounds of muscle it doesn't make me more confident it doesn't make me anything different other than like, oh, maybe I look different in the mirror.

Confidence is built through challenge. It's built through struggle. It's built through overcoming obstacles. So, if the reason we're trying to build muscle is because we want to be more confident, we want to be I don't look better, well, go do the work, right? If we're building muscle because we want a longevity benefit, go do the work, you know? Like, I don't know that just just muscle is what we're after. Yeah. How do you communicate that well? Because uh or effectively because uh we know this. We've been we've all been working out for years and we train people for years and I know you've you've done the same.

And if I had to list all the benefits that came from uh the the the fitness journey um very little of those benefits are actually the the Yeah. the physical end result. So many of the benefits are just the whole process whole process whole process person I'm becoming in the process. Yeah. I mean um I [clears throat] I you know uh fitness is such a microcosm of I guess life. Uh very simplified you know like it's hard it hurts. I suck. I gotta get better. You know, I gotta go show up.

I gotta be disciplined. And the carryover to everything else is profound. But how do you sell that to somebody when someone just is what's sold to them so much is the benefits are that you look good. Yep. Well, I [clears throat] can go a lot of different directions and it depends how long you got. But I would say the society we live in is extremely difficult mentally, cognitively, emotionally, a lot of lot of emotional stress, a lot of mental uh challenge, but physically very very easy.

So evolutionarily we had a lot of physical stress and not a lot of psychological stress, right? Some psychological stress, but even if they were there was psychological stress, it was always coupled with physical stress. So what's happened is there's a disconnect like an evolutionary disconnect where now we're having so much psychological stress and no physical challenge. So the body becomes this metabolically disconnected organism where the brain is constantly in a state of fight or flight and the body sitting on the couch or sitting in the car you know reacting to someone cutting you off and so we have to intentionally curate hard things for our body otherwise the body will break down.

So I think that that's my stance is like we have to intentionally curate challenges. We have to intentionally curate struggle uh to make sure the body and the mind can be in harmony. So when I'm when I'm stressed whether it be from work or from driving the car and getting cut off or whatever moving my body is the fastest and most effective way out of that stressful state. So if people learn that and they can operationalize that that's what changes your life. So most people who are trying to change a psychological state, maybe it's in inadequacy, maybe it's insecurity, they're trying to change that by changing the way they look.

I'm like, it's not the way you look, it's the it's the movement to get the way you look that changes the the psychological state, right? state, right? state, right? We're trying to outthink our way out of uh Can't do it. No, no, you can't think your way out of that those types of things. It's interesting. I I uh I've been really digging deep into a lot of that uh data on anxiety and stress. And I have uh kids and I have two older kids. One's 20, one's 16.

So, it's it's been interesting for me uh for a little while. And when you look at it and you know, I've heard people say this like, "Oh, we're just uh we're so stressed today or the stress is different today." And I've heard that argument before. But then when I think back to previous generations, like, you know, you're living through the Great Depression or World War I or World War II, like like that's way more stressful. That's way more stressful, right? Or just less resilient or Yeah.

Yeah. Like what's the difference? And so what what it brought me to was was research on what is protective against stress and uh what I keep coming up to is uh is there a purpose behind the stress? Do you feel a mean? Do you feel meaning behind it? Because Because Because if you're uh if you're doing something stressful and you feel like it's worthless stress, it's very stressful on the body. But if you're doing something like look at volunteers. I love looking at research on volunteer workers who go out and get poor sleep and they're out there serving people and helping people and they're doing it for free and they just feel good.

And it's like those people are under a lot of objective stress, but they don't they're not reporting lots of stress because they feel a lot high sense of purpose behind what they're doing. Man, you nailed it. So that's where I was going to go. And I think the best example, maybe the most extreme example, maybe the best example is Elon. Elon Musk wakes up every day and like how do you CEO three companies at the highest level in the world, sleep four or five hours a night and still wake up and do it every day.

You're like that's it's remarkable, right? So he's he's driven by purpose, you know? It could be some pain because I know he had some some trauma as a child, but like it's got to be a deep purpose, right? So yeah, you nailed it, man. And my I have I have a 19-year-old stepson and he's going through some stuff right now and I'm like, man, you just need something bigger than yourself. Like like I have anxiety. I have this. I'm like, every man has anxiety at some point in their life.

Maybe at all points in their life, but they're willing to outwork that. They're willing to realize like, hey, I have no choice. I have to get up and do the work. I have to get up and grind. I have to have a re I have to have a reason to get up otherwise I'm just going to sit in my anxiety. I was I forget it was I think it was um either [snorts] Mark Twain somebody was was writing recently and I was or I was reading about it recently and they were saying something like literally every man is living with anxiety living with inner torment but you just get up and and go about your life right and then you find the things that are important then the anxiety fades away because you start filling in all those gaps and deficiencies that are causing the anxiety right if you're anxious because your health is bad well we have to fix that if you're anxious because you're broke and we'll we'll fix that by making money if you're anxious because I don't know [clears throat] your rel relationship status is bad or you're insecurity you're insecure like you start fixing those problems if you're willing to do the work whereas my uh my stepson's just sort of like sitting at home waiting for it to fix it itself and I'm like man you you got to get up it's it's a tough one is there as a father and and seeing that in your 19-year-old stepson are there things that you have implemented or you communicate to the younger ones like are there like this you do you think about that a lot I think about stuff like this a lot like as my kids growing them face challenges and and uh hard situations now because they they just have to realize that they're they're they're or just don't rescue them.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. They have to figure out that they can do it on their own. Is there an example you can think of that you can draw on though that's happened recently where it's just like there was an opportunity for you to do that? Like are you seeking out and putting in those situations or are you just aware of the opportunity of oh here's a time where I can Well, so the example that stands out to me with my kids is sports. So like they don't always win and sometimes they don't always get the call.

call. call. So good for that. I think every kid should play sports. You're like, "Hey man, you didn't make the team or you didn't get my son right now just started in football and he didn't get the starting job as a quarterback." And you're like, "How are you going to deal with that?" Like, "How are you going to react?" And so the the natural inclination is like, "Ah, you know, put the other guy down." I'm like, "No, no, man. He's he's did great. He he pushed you hard.

Uh, honor that. Respect that. Shake his hand. Next year, come back, beat him. How you going to do that?" You know, uh, I have to get better. So my son's doing his sprint training every day and he's doing like, you know, he's doing all the things. And I'm like, that's his decision, not mine, right? I'm not going to be the one who's like the angry dad yelling at my son to do the work. I was like, no, man. That's that's not me. Like, my job is to facilitate what you want to do, but you have to make the decision to move toward the the growth.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You don't want to steal it from him. You know what's interesting about that? Uh almost like one of the worst things that could happen to your kid when you put him in sports is he's excellent at at them right out the gates and is always super good. super good. super good. Like like like how do you like that? That's actually uh not not a blessing. That can potentially be a big curse% that they just go in and crush all things. things. things. The thing that changed my athletic career as a young one, I got cut from the 12-year-old all-star team baseball team.

[snorts] team. [snorts] team. [snorts] And they're like, "Sorry, you know, you're not good enough to make this team." I was like, "Okay, thank you." And I was hurt and they brought me back as the last taxi player, which basically meant I had to be on the practice team. And I was like, "Okay, I'll do it. I'll take it." And within a couple weeks into the season, I was l I was hitting lead off most hits on the team. Ended up MVP of the teams. Like that's cool.

that's cool. that's cool. I was cut and I was dejected and they gave me an opportunity and I was [snorts] like I'm never going to I never want to experience that again. And that took like I was a pretty solid baseball player from 12 to 17 when I gave it up for bodybuilding. Um but that was it. It was that event. And I remember it clearly cuz I was like I'm never going to let these coaches down. Those coaches were hard on me. I was 12 and I was like, "Go, keep going.

I'll take it." And ever since then, I'm the most coachable guy in the world when it comes to interacting with coaches cuz I remember that like nobody could be harder than me on me than those four guys where I was four coaches on that team. They beat me into the ground. I was like, I don't care. I'll keep going. Uh so that was a good learning lesson. learning lesson. learning lesson. I don't I don't think there's anything better than sports for kids for that reason. I mean, the reason why I bring that up and ask that is I've got a seven-year-old who has no interest in sports whatsoever.

And it's so crazy for my wife and I who sports are on 24/7. We play sports all the time. Like it's a part of our life life life and he's just Legos, puzzles, reading, you know, all the things. He's such a great kid and like but we and and I just slowly try and introduce it. Now I know we both were late bloomers so as far as getting into sports. So there's this hope that eventually, but I think about this a lot because I know what it did for me and I know what a it's such every day from practice to games to cut to there's so many lessons within it and if you as a dad if you're aware of that and you see it's like it just presents these great opportunities.

So I always think like what am I going to do if he doesn't like if there's a possibility that he's I I would just create some some man standards in the house like hey man men can defend themselves you know our our Schaefer men defend themselves and uh we do jiu-jitsu and we we run [clears throat] you know or like we lift or something you know create standards that like this is an interesting thing that maybe you guys haven't thought about about about you probably I don't know my anyone beyond my grandfather I don't know their names I don't know anything about them right anything older than my grandfather Um, but think about our kids.

Like we are going to be the first generation where there's going to be a time capsule for the rest of time. We're going to have dig a digital fingerprint for the rest of time. So it's your opportunity now to sit back and go, what legacy do I want to create for the name of the back of the jersey? You're the start, man. Like there may be guys who've come before you and I always think like I come from a very strong line of men. I don't know who they are, but I know where they were the strongest of their generation or they're strongest of of the species, right?

Because they had to survive. So like you get to be intentional about what you start now as a legacy for your family. It's like what traditions do I want to create? What standards do I want to create for my kids? And like so you know I want my kids to play sports, but it's not just like hey pick any sport you want. I'm like hey we got to have standards. We have to have daily standards around we're going to do this every day. And so I have I have what I call four master skills and they have to study and and do something for their four master skills every day.

And that started you know as soon as they're sort of able and I'm happy to share those but it's basically like I'll share what they are really quickly. So, it's uh master your body, master your finances, master communication, and master your emotions because I believe those are the four most important things for young people. Now, you can make an argument there's other stuff, but u master your body, master your finances, master communication, and master emotions. Um and so, all of my kids are are focusing at some level on doing some stuff for that.

Uh and it could be little. It could be like, "Hey, did you do 10 push-ups today?" Or like whatever, but like we're going to do something every day. Why? because I want in the back of their mind when they don't know what to do with themselves, when they don't like, I'm bored. Have you done your master skills? So, we just have a lowlevel standard, but you got to do something, you know? I want I want I know it's been a little while since you transitioned out of uh pro bodybuilding, but um you've been one of the more successful people to do so.

And uh I I I can't imagine the challenge uh that a a well any pro alete but a pro bodybuilder in particular would have uh having to change their identity I guess to go from this really huge muscular whatever guy competing to switch into something else. And I see that often is a very difficult transition for people. But you seem to have no problem doing it. like what what talk about that a little bit and changing your identity to going from bodybuilder guy competing on stage you know getting big strong shredded uh you know prep you know all that stuff to moving out of it to like what you do now.

Yeah. You know what comes up for me as you say that is bodybuilding was always something I did. It wasn't something that I am. And I know a lot of people have themsel their identity wrapped up in what they do and for me it just never was. So, you know, even until I was a pro bodybuilder. And past you, I being a pro bodybuilder for many years, I never told people I was a bodybuilder. I love to train. I love to grow. I love to work hard.

Like, I didn't see myself as a bodybuilder, you know? And maybe that's some version of inadequacy. Maybe it's some version of like I just never was my identity. So, leaving bodybuilding almost felt like a relief for me. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, bodybuilding is something that I needed. You know, I had I had a pretty rough childhood. Bodybuilding gave me a lot. Bodybuilding gave me everything to be honest. Everything I have to this day, bodybuilding has given me. So yeah, leaving bodybuilding felt more like I could go back to being who I truly am rather than the armor that I had to grow to overcome my deep level inadequacy, deep level insecurity.

So yeah, depending how deep you want to go. Well, do you feel like you had a good relationship with it all the way through or do you think that this is mature wise you talk talking back about it? You know what I'm saying? Like in the beginning I didn't I don't know that I ever had a bad relationship with bodybuilding. I just wanted I just wanted to be better. Like I just my bodybuilding for me was about uh you know the the contest was a pageant.

It was about who am I becoming? How much am I growing between each contest? How can I improve? I improve? I improve? So by the time I was 17, I went to the Olympia in '98 which was uh Ronnie's first win and I was 160 pounds and I was like this is all I want to do. And from that point on the standard for me was like I want to look like Flex Wheeler. I want to look like Jay Cutler. I want to look like Dorian is and until I'm there, I'm nothing.

So why I'm not. So it wasn't uh anything other than this pursuit of I'm going there to the top of that mountain. And I was never worried about my placing in a show. I was never worried about anyone else's feedback like you got big arms, small arms, small calves, I don't care until I look like that. I'm not I'm not there. So I was so goal driven goal driven goal driven um that it was just like consumed me. So I don't think I had a negative like a lot of people talk about having body dysmorphia.

like I don't think I had that. I think I was just like uh obsessed on achieving my goal and obsessed with being the best version of myself in the gym. And you could say that comes from um so when I talk about my childhood, I come from a family of obese alcoholics. Everyone was lazy. Nobody ever finished high school. Uh they just blamed everyone outside of themselves. And I hated that. And I felt like I was never like them. I feel like I I just don't feel like I'm like these people.

And I didn't want to be like those people. So it became part of my identity to move away from that. I'm like I don't want to be like them. I'm going to do the exact opposite of what they would do. And that drove me. So like maybe that's why I set this goal. I'm like that's the exact opposite of what my family is, you know? know? know? Um Um Um yeah. So when I left bodybuilding to be honest even to now I feel more myself now than I ever have in my entire life.

Even as a young kid, imagine like feeling like you're part of this this family of obese alcoholics, you know, drug addicts, gambling addicts, and uh not feeling like you belong there. like I can't be myself because I was very judged. My mom had a problem with alcoholism. Um so I was always sort of mistreated, treated like the step, you know, the stepchild. And uh yeah, so I was never able to be myself. So going through bodybuilding earned I think I earned my place in this world in bodybuilding.

That's why I wanted to be the best. I'm like I'm going to go here because I'm going to make something of myself. myself. myself. Yeah. I I'd argue that it was part of you finding your identity going through it and it's more of which makes sense to why to Sal's point why you seem to have had this kind of almost easy transition out of it because you didn't wrap your identity around it was more so I proved to myself I'm not that other thing y y y and you've already proven that and it was probably some sense of relief of like well I've done I'm done proving it I don't need to prove anything anymore and so and so and so well I want to back up so you you were you you you went to the Olympia 98 at 160 pounds first of all what brought you to the Olympia So, I didn't have a good relationship with my dad growing up.

Like my dad uh looking back on it, he's a my dad's a wonderful man. Um but my parents had separated and uh didn't have we didn't have a lot of contact. Um so when I was 15, I wanted to play sports. So I moved high schools to go live with my dad because I'd had to be in in the in the location. I had to be close to the school. school. school. So I'm living with my dad, just him and I. And uh we didn't really talk.

We didn't realize my dad was not a very good communicator. Um so I started training and I was like, "Hey dad, I'm going to train at this gym just up the road. Would you can you sign me up?" He's like, "Yep, I'll pay for it. No problem." Um so I'm training at this gym and uh I didn't want to be a bodybuilder at all. No interest. Just want I just want to train cuz I was being recruited to play D1 baseball. So uh but I when I get to this gym uh there's a lot of bodybuilders there.

And I open still to this point didn't want to be a bodybuilder. I opened up a magazine one day. I think it was Muslim fitness mid and flex and I saw an ad for the Olympia and it was in like 6 weeks and I was like hey you want to go I left it open on the on the kitchen uh table like you want to go to this he goes let's go and it was 6 weeks later and I went and we drove down it was 10-hour drive from Toronto and uh I was like this is all I want to do I just knew it just that's so random just how did you know cuz 160 lbs is way different than different than different than eventually what you became that's wild that you could even see that I want to do that you're looking at that at 160 60.

You think that's even baseball, too. So, how did that just shift real? shift real? shift real? I don't know, man. I was in the gym for, you know, 6 months, maybe 12 months at that point. Um, and I love I have I I think I have a bit of obsessive personality maybe. personality maybe. personality maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I was training twice a day before school and after school. I just wanted to be the best and and I just want to be fast. So, like what I found in baseball and I was stupid.

I didn't have any coaches or anything. I was just like if I do this stuff, I feel faster. So, I went to the gym twice a day, had the same thing same thing same thing every day. I was like, I'm going to go to this because it makes me faster. I was like, great. Um, so I was making decent progress, starting to see some some changes in my body, and then I don't know, man, when I got to I can remember as clear as it was yesterday, like exactly who who I was looking at, you know, Ronnie Coleman, they were wearing these suits.

Ronnie Coleman was wearing a blue suit and he was Imagine a bodybuilding a blue suit. That's back when they had them all tailored to be had this big old suit. They're They're They're ridiculous. ridiculous. ridiculous. cartoon character, man. And it was so small, right? Like the Olympia now is this big event. Back then it was like this little hall. Uh it was it was a joke. Was it was it in Vegas? Was it in Vegas? In New York City. The next year it was in Vegas.

99 was in Vegas. Oh wow. Oh wow. Oh wow. I went to that one too. [snorts] So there's a funny story. In '98 I went to uh it was in New York and I was 160 lbs. And the next year I went back and I was 230. was 230. was 230. Whoa. You went from 160 to 230 as a kid in the fir the first year. How old were you? 17. Holy. So you're not so you're obviously still natural at that time. Okay. So this is when you knew you had genetics for bodybuilding for sure.

For eating maybe. Well, so you were 230 and fat. No. Uh yeah, I was probably I was under 20%. I was probably 16 18%. Yeah, that's a lot of that's a massive amount of muscle. L pounds at that age. That's insane. 70 70 lbs at that age. Did you know now did you know as you're training uh and gaining all that size in a year? Cuz that's insane. Uh because I think that's how much muscle I gained my whole life. whole life. whole life. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, maybe.

Uh were you like uh oh uh I think I'm good at this. I think I have genetics. genetics. genetics. Anybody say anything to you? Like hey dude, you dude, you dude, you So here's a funny story. I uh at the 99 Olympia, some man comes up to me and he he says, "Hey, I'd like to write an article for you. I write on you. I write for one of the magazines on you. You're just some kid." Yeah. He goes, "You as one of the future mass monsters of the sport." Now my my red flags will be going up.

Hold on a second. You want to talk to a kid about Yeah. Yeah. Like so we did a little interview. I never saw that the article, but like that was sort of the first validation for me like, "Oh, maybe I'm on the right track." And cuz in one year I was Did he recognize you from the previous year or something? No, he just he just saw me and he's just saw some jacked young kid probably. I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Wow. And you had no And so at that point, did you think, "Oh, I got good genetics." Or I didn't care, man.

I just I so, you know, call me stupid. When I started this quest from like the 17-year-old 160 kid, I just didn't have any doubt that that that's what I was going to do. So, I was like, I'm going to do whatever it takes. There's no like maybe I'll do it, maybe I won't. I'm like, I'll train six times a day if I have to. I'll eat [ __ ] dog food if you tell me I need to. That's where I'm going. Um, so I I didn't care if for anyone's validation.

I wasn't looking for anyone's validation. And then the next year, uh, I think it was early 2000, I was walking around one of the first shows I ever went to locally in Canada and, uh, I got my first bodybuilding contract. I got a contract with Muscle Tech. Is this before you competed? Way before I competed. Yeah. What? What? What? Cuz you're just walking around. You have to look crazy if people are doing this to you, dude. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, how did that happen? So, you're walking around.

It's like a supplement expo or something. No, it was like a bodybuilding show, you know, like a local show where they have like some exhibitors set up. And because Muscle Tech was a Canadian company, they were based there. So this is either late 99 or early 2000. Is this when they had uh what's his name? Greg Kov. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Giant. You guys know who that was? Who? Who? He was giant. 400 lb. Greg Kovac. This guy's like overhead behind the neck pressing four plates. If I see him, I'll know.

I've seen him. You'll know. You'll Yeah, if I see him, I'm sure I see. He was in all the muscle tech. Well, I was going to say I mean I was taking Celtech around those taking I was taking Celtech around those those years. So I know taking all that stuff. stuff. stuff. Yeah. Oh, this is uh Greg Kovac. K O V. I have a feeling the name already is ringing a bell when it's He was just a giant. He was like a giant human being. human being.

human being. Was that their first big signing? Was that Was he the first big face of them? Yep. Yep. Yep. And then were you to follow? I mean, no, I was a kid. But like I was very happy to be getting free supplements. I was going to say, what was the contract? Just free. Whatever I wanted cuz the company was new. So I would literally just pull up whenever I wanted. You remember when that was such a big deal though? We talk about this all the time.

Like if you would have asked us way back in the days if like we could just get free subs, we would have probably done. probably done. probably done. So imagine how that was the year before I went to university for the first year. And so when I went to university, I had this muscle tech contract. I had the muscle tech team athlete jacket. I had closets full of Celltech and they used to have mezotech bars protein closets full. So I would trade. So like that's how I got through college, man.

I was like, "Yeah, I'll trade you. I got some protein." protein." protein." Totally, man. Totally, man. Totally, man. Oh yeah, I totally remember. So look see see I'm on the right there next to next to next to I remember him. Yeah, he was he passed away, right? Yeah, he did. Yeah. Big. But he was I mean he was so strong. I mean he benched six, seven plates and just uh insane. Yeah, it was absurd. Yeah. Insane. Okay. So, you got you get this contract. You never competed.

You didn't even look for it. You're just walking around and you're how old at this point? this point? this point? 19. 19. 19. 19. And how do you remember how big you were at this point? Probably 240. Probably 240. Probably 240. Okay. Do you at what point is someone coming up to you and saying was it then were they like you got to compete or they more interested in like no we just want this jack kid? They just want the jack kid. I because I was going to university I was like yeah I got to go to school for four years.

So that yeah I never made any commits to competing. competing. competing. When you when you look back at those those two years of training uh what were you doing right and what were you not doing right? doing right? doing right? Taking advantage of new begans I think. And I I was just training all the time and I was very blessed I'll say like circumstantially. I went into the I just happened to be within walking distance of the only bodybuilding gym in Toronto. Um I could walk there in 15 minutes.

Winter, sun, summer, doesn't matter. I'd walk, you know, twice a day. And I met these two guys, brothers, who uh were way further ahead. They were they were much far further ahead than me in bodybuilding. They they didn't necessarily teach me how to train. They taught me what hard work was. And these guys are still friends to this day. And uh uh uh that's cool. that's cool. that's cool. Without those guys, I wouldn't have been the man I am. like they just set the stand. They're only a couple years older, but they were just so much bigger and they worked.

So, when I moved to the US, and I tell this story often on my podcast, uh when I went to Venice, I was expecting professional bodybuilders to be really hardworking people. And so, And so, And so, I'm laughing cuz I I've heard so many stories of stories of stories of dude, I was ready to go, but the Southern California want to go to war, man. I'm like, let's [ __ ] go. I'm going to kill these guys. guys. guys. And I'm like, what was that? I'm not gonna I'm not going to call out names, but I was like, this is a workout.

I was like, what are these guys doing? Is this a joke? So these guys, the these two brothers, uh, name is Vic and Dan, um, they they taught me everything, man. They taught me like what hard work was, and they used to just destroy me and destroy each other. And so like we were not not right sometimes, man. We're doing crazy stuff. So like when I went to the US, I was like, "Oh, like I can hang with these guys. I'm better than these guys." I would do two sets to everyone for everyone I was training against.

So that was always a a real point of it was really an advantage for me, like psychological advantage for sure. But physically manage, my conditioning was way better. My strength was way better cuz like that that was my standard. I just like like nobody would keep up. You know, there's a couple bodybuilders throughout my career that kept up, but not many. not many. not many. Who were the ones that you that you branch guys like that? I never have to train with branch. I call them on so many times.

Never want to do it. Oh, really? Oh, really? Oh, really? No. You know, cuz we had that like public conflict which is sort of contrived, but I was like, "Dude, come do one workout on my gym. We'll do my style. Then we'll go to your gym. I'll do your style whenever you want." Didn't want to come. That's okay. Um Um Um I didn't know that. Yeah. I didn't I didn't know that. Um Roly Winkler is a [ __ ] freak. Really? Really? Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I know he looks like he's got crazy genetics, but he trains like like a maniac.

a maniac. a maniac. Stupid strong and ridiculous endurance. Okay. Okay. Okay. Ridiculous endurance. Okay. Yeah. Um I don't think he trains like a maniac cuz he'll take 10 15 minutes between a set, but like when he gets going like that guy's output is nuts. Wow. Wow. Wow. Yeah. He probably has the greatest output. output. output. You ever train with Cutler? I know he also he had a fast pace. No, I never train with Jay. Okay. Um, yeah, those that really is the only bodybuilder I was like like I had to work to beat them.

Usually I didn't have to work to beat people. I could like goof around a little bit and be a be a cocky prick. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, But, uh, But, uh, there's a couple bodybuilders you watch them, you watch training videos of them and you just see there certain like Gaspari is one like just crazy work ethic. He's just maniac in there. Uh, Platt like just absolute. I think Platz was I mean and I don't want to take anything away from him because he was my early idol.

Looking back at it, I think it was a show. Like watching those videos, I'm like, I could do that. Like the output and the the escapades. I'm like, I'm not sure if he was actually thinking he was working hard or if it was actually just like I'm putting on a show cuz I'm film I don't want to take anything away from the guy like but watching it, I was like h it's a bit of an exhibition, you know. Well, cuz if you watch Dorian Train, who I have the utmost respect for Oh, god.

It's not It's crazy. But it's not this exhibition where I'm trying to like scream at the camera. I'm like, "Just chill out, man. Like, do the work." You know? know? know? Dorian Dorian's impressive cuz his gym was it was just basement, bro. It was like a dark like small. It was like a small little junky. Have you been there? But I' never been there. Yeah. It's a [ __ ] hole. It's perfect, you know. It's like dark. The gym I started training at was also a [ __ ] hole.

[ __ ] hole. [ __ ] hole. Where was it? So, the one I started training at that I was saying I used to walk to. Yeah. Uh it was called Mac's Gym in Toronto and the guy was an 87y old Japanese man who owned the gym. His name is Mac is Mac is Mac and he had welded all the equipment personally. So nothing was it was all welded personally welded. Wow. Wow. Wow. Yep. Yep. Yep. Oh that's like one of your dream talk a little bit about the culture because uh there's we we brought this up on the show.

So we we love to communicate uh to average person like you know as trainers like I'm not speaking to the fitness fanatic. I love fitness fanatics. We could talk science all day, the hardcore stuff, but I like talking to the average person because they need help. And one of the fears that people have, especially women, and it's less these days than it used to be, but still, is the intimidation factor of going to the gym. And what I try to communicate to these people is like the more hardcore the gym, the gym, the gym, the better the culture.

Like you'll walk in, you could be a total beginner, you could be a 65y old woman, you could be 300 lb 300 lb 300 lb and you walk in and you put out some effort and you'll get experienced people coming over just trying to help you and coach you for free. Talk talk a little bit about the culture. Uh because I think we're missing that and I think it's such an important aspect of of fit. I think it's one of the most valuable aspects of of gyms.

Yeah, it's a great thought, man. So my gym is like that. My gym is is an amazing culture where like everyone knows your name and you're training with the same people all the time and we're trying to make each other better. I was blessed in the beginning uh exactly as you say to be like the kid who was dumb and like a deer in headlights and I just had some old dudes be like, "Hey man, don't do it like that. Do like this. Try this way." I'm like, "Okay." All I had You want to laugh?

You guys laugh at this. My first nickname in the gym. Little screamer boy. True story. True story. Guys at the gym. Oh my god. Go and work hard like Yeah, that was my first. And they loved you. I bet they love you for it. Like this kid over here is killing himself. He's awesome. So man, my my habit was, you know, I go to failure on the bench press, but you get stuck. So what do you do? You roll it off. it off. it off. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm like like what are you doing, man? Ask for a spot. I'm like I didn't want to bother anybody, so I roll it off. You roll it off your chest. chest. chest. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. But those are great. It's such a great man. I was just it it literally uh I've been talking about this recently on the show because um you know we worked in big box gyms and we've been in the gym industry. We were in the gym industry for a long time and so you you start to see trends in uh in the gym and uh in gym industry and you see these trends where they seem to come out of nowhere.

You're like what is it about this trend or what's going on? Why is it attracting so many people? Um and what's going on? What's happening here? And CrossFit was one of these. Like CrossFit came out of nowhere, right? And these are these are crapole gyms. They have barely any equipment. Uh they're typically uh don't even have AC. The programming isn't great. Uh but super popular and and it's not that they're deadlifting and squatting. I know that they kind of brought those back into popularity partially to uh to credit for that.

It's the community. They they understood community. And it's so funny because uh it wasn't that long ago. I was watching I've seen I've seen pumping air at least a million times, but I was watching it. One of the things I like to do when I watch it when I was a kid is I would watch the background because you've seen it so many times. I know what Arnold's going to say. I know what's happening with Lou, but I'd watch the background. There's, you know, the weird dude in the back doing the funny curls where when Lou's working out and this guy over here doing this thing and I I realized like there's no music playing.

playing. playing. They're not there's no music in the back. They didn't even play music in the gyms. Like gyms. Like gyms. Like Joe Gold wouldn't allow music in the gyms. gyms. gyms. He wouldn't allow music in the gym. Oh, interesting. I didn't know that. No. So Joe Gold started Gold's gym. sold sold it to someone and then to Ed Connors and then he started World Gym. Never allowed music in the gym. That's right. It was it was about it was about the culture. Well, we've talked about that, but I I never unders never knew if that was like a rule or just wouldn't allow it.

Oh, interesting. Oh, interesting. Oh, interesting. Yeah. If you made if you you know did anything crazy kick you out like he kick everybody got terrible temper. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But so I you know when I'm as I'm watching this I'm like thinking about it like one of the worst thing I think and I know people are going to hate this because fitness fanatics don't care but I think one of the worst things that we've done is wear headphones in the gym. We're in our own little bubble by ourselves.

ourselves. ourselves. Yeah, you're right. And people won't talk to you because you have the headphones on headphones on headphones on and nobody's talking to each other. I'm in my own space. Now I get it if you're like super hardcore fitness fanatic, you know? Uh cuz that's your thing. Uh that's me when I go in there. I don't care. Yeah. But most people are not fitness fanatics. And most people need to develop a relationship with fitness that lasts forever. And it's a community that does that. And there and there's no opportunity for that when we're all isolated in our own little bubble in what used to be a culture thing.

Yeah, I hear you, man. I I would say that if you and I train together, for example, example, example, Yeah. I would hope that the conversation, the dialogue that we have between sets would be the thing that makes you better in life and in the set, you know, you know, you know, talking like a trainer, bro. I know. So many people are trying to like, you know, block everything out. Like the dynamic you create should be the thing that makes you better. Yeah. I think that's important.

Like again, maybe not everyone's training with other people, but I think everyone should aspire to have at least one training partner. What What a gift. When you look back at all the guys that you trained with, was there anybody that you hit it off so much with that you trained consistently with for a while? Some great ones. No, no pros, man. No pros. pros. pros. No, I didn't have any great pro bodybuilder training part partners. Was that just because they didn't live up to what you thought?

I didn't get along well with any of the open bodybuilding guys. That's so funny to me that you don't. You have such a likable eating. Were you more of an [ __ ] before we hung out? Were you a prick? Um, Um, Um, you probably were. You probably you probably realized how much harder you train everybody else than you lost respect for everybody and you and you wore that on your I wouldn't disrespect anybody. I would in fact I would love to train with anybody. anybody. anybody. Yeah.

[snorts] Yeah. [snorts] Yeah. [snorts] Um but if I'm training with you, I'm going to make you know that you're inferior. inferior. inferior. But But But okay, okay, okay, by by any means necessary, right? By any means necessary. means necessary. means necessary. So I think that may have come across in a way a way a way a little intimidating a little bit by Yeah, by any means necessary. Um, so yeah. No, I think I just I think you know when you're when you're [snorts] interacting with 10 to 12 or 15 of like really alpha men who are competing for each other's salary and competing for each other's trophies.

You're not going to be friendly, man. So I, you know, I was close with Cedric. I was close with Sean Rhoden. I was close to Brandon. But because we travel together later in the career, I was close with Dexter. Um, I am close with Dexter. We we travel together a lot, you know. Um, but like [clears throat] as far as training in the gym, I I don't think I train with any of those guys. No. So, who So, like who was the first guy that obviously wasn't a a pro bodybuilder that like you were lifting and you went, "Oh, this this is someone I want to latch on to or that I would work out more with, like who who was that to you?" So, I'll say this.

If any of my old training partners are listening, I wasn't always nice in the gym because it was all businessmen and like if anyone slowed me down, they weren't going to last very long. So training partners were the people who were willing to show up, do the work, and not [ __ ] complain. And there wasn't a lot of those. I would burn through those pretty quickly. So throughout my career, I had four guys total who like were long-term training partners. Yeah. And it would be like, "Hey man, you want to do lunges?" "Yep." "Hey man, you want to do extensions?" "Yep." "Hey man." Like all they would say the whole [ __ ] workout is, "Yep." I was like, "Perfect." Cuz I don't want to hear about your [ __ ] problems.

I don't want to hear about your life. I don't want to hear about what you ate. I don't want to hear about your knees being sore. If you can't show up the train, don't show up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um so I was all business and that wasn't always received very well by men who have giant egos. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So um yeah, there's a couple guys, man. So like Vic, the early guy who who's uh you know, massive influence on my intensity early. Um there's another amazing story behind that one.

I'll I'll share this story because it's worth worth sharing. So 2013, I got second at the Arnold Classic. I don't know if you guys remember that, but Dexter [clears throat] beat me. The night before, before, before, uh, yeah, night before 6 PM, uh, Chad Nichols was coaching me for the show. He comes in my room. He's like, "Dude, nobody's beat you in the show." He's like, "You're you're [ __ ] dialed in. You're so dry. You're going to crush everybody." Um, so, you know, Chad leaves. Uh, I think it was like 8:30 or 9:00 p.m.

Uh, I start cramping and my lower body starts cramping. You know, you know, my abs start cramping, my throat start, my throat start cramping. So, you're like, "Okay, this is bad." is bad." is bad." So, I take quinine, which is anti- cramping, quinine sulfate, and cramping starts to come down, but then I start vomiting and [snorts] then I start diarrhea and then vomiting and diarrhea at the same time every 45 minutes through the night. So, it started at 9:00 p.m. 9:00 p.m. 9:00 p.m. This is the night before.

Night before every 45 minutes. And I would try to sleep. I couldn't eat anything because I threw it up. So, I literally every 45 minutes on on the clock, every four minutes, either diarrhe or or uh vomiting. And so, I'm, you know, I'm like, "Fuck, I'm out. My tan's all [ __ ] up." Because by that point, you're all tanned, you know, tan's all like because I'm sweating in the night and I'm cold and, you know, just a disaster. And then it's like uh I think 10:30 the next morning and I'm like I haven't eat anything since 6:00 the night before and I was like I can't do this show man.

I'm sitting laying in bed. I'm like can't stand up. I'm dizzy. I'm like what do I do? Should I start drinking water? I'm like Chad what do I do? He goes a man like I don't know like see how he feels cuz I couldn't even eat a banana. I couldn't anything. And then I [snorts] get a call at 10:30 uh from maybe it was 11 from Vic who actually for it was from his wife. Like this guy was my earliest training partner. And she's like, "Hey." She's talking to my wife and she she's like, "Hey, don't tell Ben, but Vic can't make it for the show.

Um, he's going in for testicular can. He's got testicular cancer. He got to go and have his testicle removed on Monday." Monday." Monday." So, like I didn't know that. I wasn't on the phone a minute. My wife is on the phone and uh so I'm like laying in bed. I'm like, "What's going on?" She like, "Vicky can't come." I'm like, "Tell me why." And so she's like, "He's got to go in for testicular cancer, get his testic testicle removed." And and so I'm like in that moment I was like, "Fuck it.

Let's go." Like I'm sitting here complaining about a sore belly. My best friend's about to [ __ ] lose his testicles. I'm like, "Let's go." I'm like, "Call the tanning lady. Let's put on I put on a tan." Pull my hat over my eyes. I walk down. I'm like, "Let's go. We're going on." And I was like, I said, "Chad, stand behind the judges. If I pass out, let them know what's going on." I didn't eat the whole day. I got [ __ ] sack in that show. Like most people don't know that.

Like the night before even after the night show. So I did the morning show and the night show. Even after the night show, I went to dinner. I couldn't eat. It's like the whole day I went to that show. So you see me at that show. I'm like, I got second, so I was looked okay. But imagine not eating for all that time, not drinking water, not filling up, not a disaster. Now, what what what caused that? Was it just the just the just the I have no idea.

So, the last thing I ate, I had a burger and fries at 6 p.m. So, you could say it was diuretics. You could say it was cuz I was cramping. You could say it was the food. Like, I don't know, man. Wow. Wow. Wow. I don't know. But yeah, I don't know. It was It was a rough night. And I just remember like going on stage and I would walk off stage, I put my head down, everyone's like, "You all right?" I'm like, "Fine." Like, "Leave me alone." But if it wasn't for him, I wouldn't have gone on stage.

Oh man. To take second and to be that probably flat is crazy. Yeah. I literally I tried to eat a banana, dude. I couldn't eat a banana. Wow. Wow. Wow. I believe wasn't it Jay Cutler who won he won one of his show. It's the the famous quad stomp photo and I think he had like the flu the day before and something something something and it made him shredded looking like he came in real dry I think if I'm not mistaken. not mistaken. not mistaken. I don't know.

So that's what happened. Now, when you're you're working out with these guys, are they ever leading? No. No. No. I was going to say, so are they really working out? working out? working out? This is business for you. This is your job. job. job. That's what I mean. Yeah. Like I mean, I think we're all like that, too. Dude, I don't know. Nobody's leading my workout or someone lead your workout. workout. workout. No. No. If I'm working out with I don't want to work out with somebody that gets to work out.

I know. I know what I mean. That's what I meant. I think I think if you had someone you trusted, you would Yeah. Maybe someone maybe my a coach. If someone was coaching me, if I hired you and you're like coaching me through it, then you could. But that's what I mean. I think with fitness fanatics, it's not so important. Uh I think culture is still important. Uh but it's less than it would be for like the average person shows up uh and they're consistent because they're part of this community and I think we've totally I think we've totally lost that.

Can you like all these crazy workout partners and and situations where you've pushed like that? Are there workouts when you think back because what thousands tens of thousands now workout I was gonna say are there workouts that stand out like like that one like do you have like workout of course I do oh my god dude that's so so there there was a period where I had two training partners one for the first hour one for the second hour that I did that for about 3 hours train out train out train out so I would literally walk in the change room he's on one today just so you know can you imagine I'd walk in the change room, change my t-shirt, come back out for round two.

So, I had a dry t-shirt, ready for the second workout. second workout. second workout. Oh my god. That was pretty uh intense. Uh I would I would I don't know frequently. I would often do 20 sets of one- arm dumbbell rows. rows. rows. Wow. Wow. Wow. For for a workout just to go and do 20 sets of one like heavy as I could like, you know, 200 220 lb dumbbells just like 20 21. Was this because back was like an emphasis for you and back thickness or whatever.

So like I got to hit this you know man. Um, I learned too late. Again, maybe maybe right at the right time, but had I learned how to train earlier, I don't think we weak body parts would have been a thing. I just I I fel fell into the dogma of like, you know, Dorian, look at his back and and look at the exercises he does, you should do those, too. Or like Ronnie Coleman does this, so you should do that, too. So, I got really strong and I was deadlifting 800 lb.

I was doing bent rows of five plates. I was very strong and I didn't grow my back. And then all of a sudden, somebody said to me like, "Hey man, you're just doing the wrong exercises for your body. Your body structure is different than these people. Why don't we find the ones that actually direct tension to the lats instead of just mindlessly moving weights?" weights?" weights?" And when I finally found the things that worked, everything started to grow. Wow. Wow. Wow. So that was just a big paradigm shift for me.

That's where the whole business that I run came from. It's like I went through this entire learning phase of like how do I actually understand what this muscle is supposed to do for my mechanics? That's the difference is in in what I do now versus what most people do is like uh your body is extremely different than mine which means your your setup your exercise selection should be different. So that's what the whole business is based around. Once I figured out the exercise that actually fit my body, my body started to go well.

Okay, that ties back to what I asked you earlier that I didn't feel like we got to finish was you looking back those first two years you built all this muscle. We talked about some of the things you did right. What would you say you did wrong? Like, so knowing what you know now, if you could go back and tell 17-year-old kid, hey, train more like this or less or more. I have to say, man, because I the thing that I did really well was I learned how to train hard and you could argue that training hard is should be first or you could argue that training well should be first.

first. first. You know, training hard for me was great. It caused some injuries, um, caused some challenges, um, but I managed to get through them. Um, yeah. So like I'm not sure if I would have said change anything looking back on it like hindsight is hard hard to change because it played such an important role right so like may maybe you weren't doing everything the right way but it but the built the character yeah say what you got from that still played such a massive role in at what point because obviously you're you got crazy genetics uh at an early age at what point uh do you incorporate performance-enhancing substances like anabolics?

So, I did my first cycle um probably going into the summer before university because I was about to do I was about to do a show. So, I would have been 19. been 19. been 19. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Um I was about to do a show. So, I was dieting for a show. I hired my first bodybuilding coach. bodybuilding coach. bodybuilding coach. So, up to this point, you haven't actually done a show yet. You just been training to get bigger. So, you're like 240 or something like that.

And you So, going into into university at my first university, I was 260 with abs. You know what? This is so good to communicate because communicate because communicate because uh people think steroids do what they don't. Uh and uh this is just not the I' look we've worked in gyms long enough. I've I've I've You put 70 lbs on before You put 70 lbs on before taking taking taking I know I know more than that. There's there's people that you can take guys that can take all the steroids in their life and they'll never eat again.

Dude, I knew a guy I'll tell you I'll tell you a funny story, dude. I used to own I was part owner of a gym down in Palm Desert for about a year and it's relatively close to Mexico. So, I'd have trainers that would drive down there, come back with a bunch of gear or whatever. whatever. whatever. And uh I had the sales guy that worked for I won't say his name, but I had the sales guy that worked for me that was just taking I mean, he was kamicazi, dude.

He was taking so much stuff. It was just whatever he can get his hands on. Yeah. on. Yeah. on. Yeah. And he just looked unhealthy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he might have gained I mean, he might have gained 10 pounds of muscle. I'm not exaggerating, but he just didn't look good. And he was doing all And people like, "Is it fake?" Well, no. I know it's not fake because I use some of the stuff and I know other people use some of the stuff and it was totally different.

different. different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's one guy that you guys would know in the fitness industry who same idea. I went and met him probably 2012 or 13. I'm like that's your [ __ ] stack? He brings out his his his uh notebook and he shows me. He's like this is what I'm taking. I was like what? Like you're taking this and you look like that? I'm like geez something. I don't know. Just that was the first time I got it. This isn't for you dude. Totally. Totally.

Totally. Give it up man. Give it up. So, you did your first cycle, your 260. What was the cycle and what did it do to you? I got really strong. Um, I think I was taking 400 megs of test, 400 megs of EQ. I was on it for probably 12 weeks, maybe been a little longer than that. And so, I know the the foundation of it was test and EQ. I think the first six weeks was EQ or no, the first six week is test and deca.

second six week is test and EQ and I would have rotated through something else on top of that whether it been a Diana ball or it would [snorts] have been um been um been um there was another molecule which I forget but yeah 12 weeks you know maybe 1,000 milligrams in total um just cuz I had a coach at the time like hey take this I was like all right um yeah I remember this sounds nuts but I remember um skull crushes with the straight or two plates.

plates. plates. Nuts. I was very strong. Very strong. Um like I couldn't even during my my highest level of bodybuilding, I wouldn't do that. But that first cycle was nuts. I can't imagine you at that peak with Dball because I know what I know. The first time I did Dball, it was the most insane thing that every time I came back to a body part, I was lifting 10 20 pounds more every time. My first cycle of trend was like that. I was like, "This is not right." Yeah, it was I scared I remember scaring myself being like, "This is way too fast.

Like, I'm this strong already." From from what I've read about uh Trembolone. Um cuz in the early in the early days, people were using Tren at like uh 170 milligrams a week, 200 milligrams, and I'm seeing people online 600 milligrams 1,000. That's [ __ ] nuts. And they're talking about all these psychiatric uh issues from it. Uh like, is that true? Were you guys using that little back then? and versus I remember it was 30 milligs per milliliter and I was either doing I started off with half a milligram three or excuse me half a mill three times a week.

So 15 milligrams three times a week. week. week. That was my starting dose. So 45 milligram 45 milligrams a week. Yep. Or I may I think I probably would have gone up to like 1 ml three times a week. That was my that but that was like I was by that by that point I was um competing. I would have been 24 25 at that point. that point. that point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How did the first show go? So, we do the you do the stack.

I won. I won. I won. Huh? Huh? Huh? I won. I won. I won. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I won. Um, it's funny because I just never thought I never just never I just never thought I never doubted I was going to win, man. I just always knew that I know if I did what I need to do, I would win. Um, yeah. So, I won um won my first show and I had a mentor early early on and um he passed six weeks after my first show.

I had a heart attack and so I was scheduled to do another show 6 weeks after and I was like, "Fuck it, I'm not doing it." I felt like I had lost like my my mentor in the sport. I was like, I don't know that I want to do it. Um, and then 3 weeks before, maybe it was like two weeks before, I was like, ah, let's just jump in, do it anyways. So, uh, that qualified me for my for the provincials, which is the same as a state show.

That was the next year, won that one. Next year, skip a year. I went to and did the Canadian Nationals. I lost by one point. I also did the North Americans, lost by three points. three points. three points. You actually break that long between shows early on. A year. Yeah. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Yep. Yep. Yep. Cuz that's not really common. normally early on when you're kind of climbing the ladder, you're doing shows like I just had no desire to do shows. I just wanted to win.

So like if I'm like if I'm not ready to go do that show and win, I'm like I'm not going. Yeah. Yeah, I get that. Yeah. I'm not going. So yeah. How was how was uh like one of the hardest things I I I say that even so I only ended up doing six total shows in my career and I still to this day don't think I ever brought the best version of me to stage. Peing. Peing. Peing. It's hard. It's harder than what people realize.

Like there's many times where a day before or two days later or so I'm looking at myself going whoa this is what I wanted. It's hard to do. Did you hit that out the park right away or did you feel the same way where it took a long time to really dial that in? I still I think still to this day I haven't. haven't. haven't. Okay. So you feel the same way too. I feel like I've never No one's ever seen the be like on stage the best.

I had some good ones but not not like not Yeah. I think, you know, I had kids in 2012 and 13. So, I was start hitting my peak in 2012 probably would have been 2012 and 13 would have been like as I was just coming into my peak. Yeah. That's when my son and my daughter were born. born. born. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I like had I continued, I would have hopefully keep getting better. Looking back at it now, man, I think the absence of peaking is just stupidity.

Like it's just like doing dumb [ __ ] Like looking back at what I know now, I'm like, if you just stay consistent and you're actually in shape, it's so easy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To, you [snorts] know, now I peak guys, it's very easy. Yeah, cuz what I tried to do in the past like, oh, you got a salt load and then you got a water deplete and you got a car load and you're like, ah, man, just like keep it the same. Like, keep it simple. Oh, carb load is fine, but I think people do, or at least I overco complicated it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, because you get so many different pieces of advice. You're not sure what like am I ready? Am I not ready? Should I take this diuretic? Should I do this water load? Like, I don't know. So, you're just always trying new things, you know? you know? you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so it's great to learn, but not great to get the get the consistent outcome. outcome. outcome. How common are the GLPs now in bodybuilding? I got to imagine that they're using them in pre-contest uh for dieting.

dieting. dieting. Um I don't know. I don't really keep in touch with a lot of bodybuilders if I'm honest, man. I've been to a show and I went to Olympia a couple times, but not much. Um much. Um much. Um a guy like you, when you look at because, you know, I know this this is for everybody's always looked back and go, "Oh, we were so much, you know, hard, you know, it was so much harder for us, but I mean, uh looking now, if you saw a bodybuilder, you see GLP in a pre-contest, would you be like, [ __ ] Well, Well, Well, cuz that's like the hardest part, dude, is like you're starving yourself.

Yeah. But I love that, right? So, I think I think the thing that bodybuilders miss is like the hard work is the prize, man. The the the discomfort. the discomfort. the discomfort. You like the pre-contest diet? I agree with that. There's something there's something to be said about knowing that most can't do this. this. this. You can't do this. Yeah. I just I there there's just there's something about I mean this is the the people that scoff at bodybuilding as a sport because oh it's not a sport.

The fact that it's there's never a day off. You compare that. That's the thing that it makes it like a sport is that name me another sport where you don't get a day off. Like it's the every thing that you intake is accounted for. Every workout can't be missed. And there's something about knowing that most people can't do that. is just is just is just I feel like um if I wasn't suffering, I wasn't enjoying it. Like I I was like I was either suffering in the gym or I was suffering because of the diet.

Like I wanted I wanted to suffer. I loved it. Yeah. It's Yeah. You could say something about my mental well-being. Yeah. But I think that's I think that there's something about that's what makes uh you successful at it is that you versus being the person who like complains about it. Yeah. You have to lean into that. You have to leave. I don't know how you would make it in a sport like bodybuilding without Yeah, you wouldn't make it very far, I wouldn't think, unless you find a way to enjoy.

enjoy. enjoy. Where do you place all that intensity now? Like as you're Well, he's zen now, dude. Yeah, I know. You're the zen guy. You're so chill. so chill. so chill. You learn that it's a tool. So, you know, I had a lot [clears throat] of aggression as a young kid. I had a lot of uh Yeah, I guess just aggression is the right word. I had a lot of energy and I was told that that was bad. I was told that, you know, you're a bad kid.

You're misbehaving. End up in jail. And uh I didn't realize it was just it was just a part just a it was just a part [clears throat] of me, you know. It wasn't all of me. It was just a part of me. And um so I sort of put it away or I I thought I was a bad person. I compartmentalized it and I was like, you know, I'm a bad person. I made it about me. And uh what I realized is that was my gift.

But nobody ever told me that. Man, when you learn to use that, nobody else, not not a lot of other people in the world have that level of intensity, that level of commitment, that level of of compulsion to move towards something. And uh if you learn to wield that tool, that weapon, it'll take you far. If it controls you, you'll go in the wrong direction, you know. So, I learned through my [snorts] bodybuilding years, through many other years, whether it be meditation or plant medicines, that uh that's just an amazing part of me that I don't want to deny, but I don't need to let it come out every day.

You know, it's still there. If I want to access it, it's still there. And I think it's a superpower, but it's not useful if I'm having a conversation. And it's not useful if I'm, you know, reading to my kids at night. Like that's that's not So I just always think of like these different versions of myself and this different level of arousal that I get to kind of play with. You know, I get to be really intense when I need to be, but I get to be really calm and centered when I need to be, right?

That's the that's the premise of my business. The business is sort of taking the shape of what I call the warrior and the monk. Mhm. So obviously the warrior self-explanatory is like I want to be able to run, jump, play, fight, uh all of it, uh when I need to at the highest level, you know, and then I want to be able to be the the lighthouse in the storm and be calm. So do you do martial arts now for those like bursts of intensity or like just training?

So you know, it's funny. I would love to do martial arts. I actually did a lot of Muay Thai after retiring and I love it. Um but just finding time in my day now. So like my my kids are my top priority. It's like I'm taking to every sporting event that I can. So, takes some time. It takes some time. Um, so I still get my workouts in. I still get my cardios in, but trying to make time like you I feel like I I had 20 years of selfishness.

Now it's time that I'm no longer the the top priority. But I once my kids are off to university, I'm sure I'll go back and do something like that. Tell us about your gym. Uh, how's that going? And you talked a little bit you you mentioned the culture of your gym a little bit uh earlier. So, let's talk about that. about that. about that. Um, so when I'm there, um, um, um, I know everyone's name. I know what they're working out that day. I, uh, probably know what their their wife's name is or their husband's name is.

I know what their dog's name is. I know what the kids' name are. So, and it's a culture of making everybody better. Like, I want to understand you. I want to understand why you're in the gym. I understand why you're struggling. I want to understand what your mental challenges are. And I want to make you better. And because I've done it at a high level, most people will give me the time and be like, "Hey, I'd love to take some advice or ask me a question." So that um creates a standard so like everyone sees me doing it for them and it lets lets the guard down, right?

No one comes in with a big ego because they know they're not the top of the totem pole. Like some people are, but the people you guys know this, the people at the top of the totem pole generally aren't the ones with the big egos. It's the ones sort of like totally try to fight fighting to be there. So, I'm very blessed to have a lot of really great athletes in the gym and we kind of just keep this culture of uh you know supporting each other, caring for each other and making everybody better as as a common value.

Have you had to bury anybody in a workout in there as I can? There it is. Have you had to humble any members as often as I can because I would imag So, what happens too when you're that guy, right, who has that reputation, I imagine there's always some somebody who wants to challenge that. And so, you know, it's funny. So two years ago, I think it was two years ago in June, I tore my labum in my hip, my left hip. I did it during a leg workout.

And ever since then, that's the worst bodybuilding injury I've ever had. That sounds horrible. It's horrible. And uh ever since then, I can't I can squat and I can deadlift, but I suffer for three or four days. I limp for three or four days afterwards. So my squatting and deadlifting since I did that, I'm like, ah. So I'm like I've asked about should I do surgery? Should I not do surgery? Because I don't want to stop the training. But like, yeah, I love to go, man.

But if I go literally any amount of deadlift, any amount of hard deadlift, I just limp. I look like an old man. So, I just So, my training in the last two years, I'll have to I'll have to admit, reluctantly, is has taken a bit of a backseat. It's not It's not the same as it was before. But, ironically, I shifted into doing a little more sprinting. Yeah. And sprinting feels great. Doesn't hurt my You can sprint and your hips. My hips Okay. But my but if I loaded deadlift, even if I put a bar like a plate on a bar, my my hips going to hurt the next day.

day. day. Wow. So, Wow. So, Wow. So, how'd you hurt it? What were you doing? Leg press. I was trying again. Those leg press. Bearing somebody. Yeah. God. Really? How much weight do you have on their Yeah, but going too deep. But going too deep, right? Like like ah [ __ ] A little little uncontrolled, you know, just getting getting stupid cuz you're training with somebody who's got a big ego. You got you got to show them up, man. Damn it. You're not 25 anymore, dog. Dude, you're not 25 anymore.

And I even went and got stem cells injected into my hip and didn't make it. Like I have no pain, but you do certain things. Yeah. Yeah. How often are you able to go in there? To your gym? Oh, well, most days. Oh, awesome. So, you're in there all the time? time? time? Yeah, most days. Oh, that's great. That's got to be so awesome. I I feel like uh at some point I want to own a gym just, you know, if we ever retire, which I don't know if that'll ever have no better name than cells.

cells. cells. They think it's a pizzeria and sell take a page out of Planet Fitness. Yeah. But I but no, I I just it's just the um just the the environment, you know? I mean, we have we actually have trainers here now that train clients and I love walking out and seeing people working out and training together and it's just the vibe, dude. I just I just love it. Absolutely love it. So, it's got to be so great to be in there. there. there. Yeah. It It's good and bad, right?

So, for the first four or five years, people weren't allowed in there and we had co trainers, but no, like public Yeah. Um, so now you know like imagine somebody came into your office and like mused something, [ __ ] it up, and then left. Like, what are these people doing, man? They don't respect my So sometimes they're a little pissed off. But that I usually run a pretty tight [ __ ] Most people in there are pretty good. I have a very strict no [ __ ] policy. So, uh, anyone breaks anything, kick them out or if they at least they, you know, act negligently, we kick them out.

I would imagine because you keep it so limited that you can almost do like an application process for We did. We did. Well, so we have a waiting list. waiting list. waiting list. Oh, you do? Okay. We do have a waiting list. Oh, so that's kind of cool. So then you can you can start to you can you can kick someone off. Yeah. Yeah. Sparse people out. Yeah. And I don't need your money, right? I'm like at the point like I need your 300 bucks. I'm like [ __ ] taking it get out, man.

Leave me alone. I'd rather have my my peace and my sanity than your [ __ ] $300. [ __ ] $300. [ __ ] $300. Exactly. You you've been remarkably consistent with uh you know who you are on social media. It's been a long time now and uh there's always the allure of the algorithm pulling you in a different direction and maybe slightly compromising who you are, integrity, but you've been you've remained incredibly consistent. Talk about that a little bit because I know a lot of people try to build their business through social media and I've seen this, you know, so we've been doing this for a long time too and you just see this you just see how people change because the algorithm, you know, is going to reward a certain way of communicating or style or whatever.

Yeah. My team's trying to get me to do it. I just I just have no desire to Of course they are because that's their job. It's like, "Hey, here's what you got to do to get the clicks." Yeah. I have no desire to be anything other than myself, man. And like I've had relative success, thank goodness, by being myself. Um so for me to change to do something else or be someone else just like this doesn't make sense to me. Like I I don't want to play someone else's game.

I want to play my game. And I think when I'm authentically myself generally comes across pretty well. Most people react pretty well. So I guess because I've had some version of success, I'm not chasing anything at this point. Um yeah, I think uh I chase education, I chase knowledge, I chase wisdom, I chase results. And if I just uh exude those things effectively and I'm myself and I love solving problems and I think that's why I shifted into coaching people is um I basically look at a body the same way I look at a business.

I'm like there's just complex problems to solve. So you're like how do I solve this problem in the most efficient way? Um, so I just take those values that I live by and speak them online. online. online. When you when we uh met each other almost eight years ago, I think it was uh you were already uh successful. So what has over the eight years that we've been friends? What has the the business looked like for you as far as like has it been this even coast?

Did you have some tough years that went down? Did you have to pivot a lot? Like what is what has that kind of journey been like since we've known each other? Yeah. So prior to co I was doing uh very well in exactly what you guys are doing actually the like the digital programs. That's right. I remember that. That's right. right. right. Yep. So we're doing really well in that. And uh I was mentoring some coaches. I had you know a couple times a year I take on 30 coaches and mentor them and that was going really well.

So um the digital program is always you know great revenue, easy to do at the gym. So that was you know easy and then co happened. Everyone stopped working out. So, I was like, "Well, I got to pivot." So, I pivoted into uh more mentoring of coaches and then taking online clients. Um and it wasn't even an intentional um like, oh, I got to like re rebuild myself. I was just like, well, that income is going to go away. I'm just going to offer this coaching um thing, which I had been doing anyways.

I just sort of ramped it up. And that just went really well. And because I'd been mentoring coaches online, I just pluck the best ones out of the cohort and like, "Hey, you want to come work for me?" And I pay better than anyone else in the industry. So, I was able to retain the best coaches who've still been with me for 5 years. Um, so yeah, that's been sort of the business just just the co pivot because you nobody knew how long it was going to last.

Nobody knew if we were going to have gyms are opening again. So, um, that was sort of the biggest pivot and it was a blessing. You know, like while I would love to go back to the e ebooks and programs and stuff like that, um, the the interpersonal excuse me, connection that I get from working with clients is remarkable. Yeah. Um, so like the income was easy or not easy, it was consistent when I was doing the digital programs. Um, but I lost connection like I wasn't, you know, hugely in touch with clients.

And because I wasn't doing bodybuilding anymore, I wasn't really wanting to build muscle. I wasn't trying to like get out there and be aggressive in muscle building. So it was like beautiful opportunity to transition into like mentoring men over 40, coaching men over 40 to, you know, whether it be performance focused or longevity focused. You know, when we first met too, you were also on this lose a 100 pounds journey. pounds journey. pounds journey. I did. I did. I did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I got down [clears throat] to 225, but I felt like ET.

I felt really skinny. Was that the lowest? So, the lowest you got down got down got down like my biggest size, dude. 225. 225. 225. And where you big structure? Where are you hovering right now? 235. 235. 235. Okay. Only only 10 pounds higher than that. And And how much have you had to like scale volume and eating all that? It's very low. Like man, if I go back to the gym for three weeks consistently, I get bigger again. Oh, I imagine. Yes. Do you ever play with that every once in a while?

Do you ever Okay. As I said, you ramp it up. I get some meat comes through the gym and wants to train and I'll end up being 260. [clears throat] [clears throat] Hey, talk. Okay. So, this this is something that uh you know, I'm approaching 45 and so uh you know, I I never heard anybody communicate this to me when I was in my 20s or teens. Uh I always heard, "Oh, it gets so much harder when you get older." And so I just always thought that man, you know, being fit and being strong and having muscle as you get older is so difficult.

I think that comes from the if you didn't start until you one of the things that I've noticed as I've gotten older is actually how easy it is to stay fit and keeping muscles easy. Yeah. the amount of training I have to do today. And I don't know if that's a testament to those crazy 3, four years of bodybuilding for me or what, but it is wild how little the the the kid, the 20-year-old kid that used to train double days to just gain an extra 5 or 10 pounds.

10 pounds. 10 pounds. I mean, I think now it's like, God, I I I touch a weight, you know, every few days and I I'll hang on to a lot of my muscle. Like, how has that been for you? And do you communicate that to people? Like that's one of the things I try and talk to people about like man just it's a selling point. Yeah. Stick with it right now cuz it actually gets easier if you keep building on it for years. Yeah. Um it's it actually surprises me how much strength I've been able to keep and how much muscle that if I want to turn it on, it comes back um Yeah.

Much more than I would have expected considering how little I have to do. Way muscle memory is crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's actually remarkable. I know. And we all heard that get thrown around, but I don't think it I don't know. I don't know if people explain it well enough because I didn't think it was going to be like that. Not like to the to the level to just like you're saying like the effort that I have to put towards just to maintain and if I want to turn it on and I I struggle to gain I was not a I didn't put no 50 lbs on in a year or two like So let me ask you this question.

Is it the same for mobility or does mobility go away faster? That's an interesting question. So, because I have an interesting mobility journey. Um, in fact, when we first met, I was on my kick of like really getting working on my mobility cuz it sucked right before that. And one of the things I also talked to these guys, I actually uh don't have to put nearly in the work for mobility to keep what I put all the hard work in to get it. But what I do have to do is there's certain things for example really deep range of motion squats and sit like now when I play with my son I sit in in that in that position which I couldn't do that 10 years yeah 10 years ago I couldn't do that.

that. that. So as long as I do things like that I don't have to get down and do the 9090s and a lot of the mobility work that I had to do to get to there. So uh so in a sense I am still training that mo I'm keeping I'm keeping myself but I'm not having to put I used to have to dedicate time like I'm going to spend 30 minutes of just mobility work every day for for a couple years to get to that place but I still don't have to.

There's certain exercises I just have to do occasionally that maintain that stability, strength and mobility and range of motion and it maintains. I don't I don't find myself having to put that much effort either there. I I think it's because you probably train like I find I don't know if you guys agree with this, but I find training has always been exponentially more effective for improving range of motion than any mobility workout. Like doing training with great ranges. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's so much more effective.

Well, because real mobility is uh is the strength there. Yeah. It's range of motion with strength. strength. strength. You can't have one. So, and that's what I mean. So, as long as I do some movements that encourage that that I couldn't do before, I'm I'm good. good. good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Muscle memory is just it's also remarkable. When you look at this, the just what we know about it, um it's crazy. Uh like you build 10 pounds of muscle, it could take you a year to the average person could take them a year to build it.

They could lose it all and then gain it back in a month. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. I mean, it's just crazy how fast. Well, you remember when I did a thing la last year. Two years ago now? Two years ago. I I did a GLP1 thing. So, I intentionally took GLP1 for how long? Uh for six months somewhere around there. Three to six months. Something like that. Yeah. Three to six months. And the my goal was to take my trainer brain out of it. So I wasn't going to go try and hit my protein intake, train really hard.

Like I was like, I'm going to do this. Be a normie. Yes. I want to be a normie and if I'm not hungry, I'm not going to eat. If I don't feel like training, I'm not going to train. I'm just going to take this thing and let And boy was it I don't know if you've messed with GLP ones at all, but all, but all, but you did 30 days. Oh, bro. I mean, I could go a day or two and not eat and just not think about it.

But then I Zic or what did you do? Uh I did appetite. Yeah, but I tell you what, like I the fatigue and I mean it was I would there was days where I had to choose like either get a couple exercises in or help my wife around the house cuz I couldn't do both. I didn't have enough fuel and energy to do both. Anyways, lost a ton of weight. Damn near half of it was muscle. So, I think I lo I think I lost a total of 25 or 30 lbs somewhere around there.

Half muscle, half half half fat. Yeah. And uh and then I then I documented on YouTube uh training to get it back. And of course everybody thought I was lying. And I mean I did the the DEXA scan before to show everything like that. But I mean I put on 25 lbs of muscle or 22 what was it Dylan? 22 in the first month. 30 30 days. 22 lbs of muscle and not even muscle memory and not training crazy like slowly scaling totally. I mean, I was like doing two lifts a day, moderate intensity volume, I scaled the intensity volume over time, but with not training like an animal at that and I put on 20 something pounds of muscle in in 30 and change no other variables.

I mean, obviously I'm eating because I was hungry and off of it. But I mean, it was a cool a it was a cool experiment. experiment. experiment. Yeah. I ran low dose red diet for 30 days just cuz I wouldn't like have an opinion without like I got to see what this actually feels like. It's it's crazy. crazy. crazy. It's crazy. Yeah, you don't even think about food. I have I have a client who's a surgeon who uses it as a um [clears throat] focus aid because he's like, you know, I didn't realize how much like talk I have in the back of my mind thinking about food or whatever.

Like just goes away. So now in surgery, I can just be completely focused. It's like a neutropic. It's like it's an interesting insight. insight. insight. Yeah. There there there's studies right now on uh GLP like uh uh peptides. So this in the class of that for um uh for alcohol no for alcohol abuse uh for quitting. Yeah, quitting. Yeah, quitting. Yeah, it works. it works. it works. Yeah. Yeah. But and so it's really it's a very interesting uh space to look at right now. Pretty well.

There's also been some uh feedback though that people are becoming I forget the name of the word exactly but it's they basically lose sexual desire as well. well. well. Yeah. Oh yeah. You seen that? Yeah, we talked about that. I've heard of that. So here's what I wanted. Here's what I would want. Passion in general sort of. Yeah. So here's what I would want to like parse out because I know it acts on the what however we perceive you know hedenistic value in our brain. So there's definitely that part of it but I want to know I want to separate uh people who are eating adequately and people are just way undereating cuz you just eat no calories you're going to lose your desire for sex you're not going to be as happy.

That's the argument that's the argument that you have to have to have to that's the argument that I would make too s because I mean that this is this is what I mean by what I felt like I remember vividly many many days of being so depleted and coming home from just podcasting like we do anything labor right come home and like I know I need to get a lift in and all I got to do is get in the garage do a couple lifts and it's like but I also I want to play with my kid and I want to help my wife and it was just like I had to choose it might be one of those things where it's not the GLP but the fact that you're eating nothing.

So, uh, but I'd like to see that. I'd like to see people, it's like, uh, when people do the keto flu, it's like, well, it's not keto flu. You just need sodium and then suddenly it goes away. Like, uh, I'd like to see when people actually eat adequately on a GLP. If you still see people who are like, I'm losing, you know, desire for, right, right, right, for things. I my my guess is that it's it's mostly that we actually uh trained a group 50 people on GLPs and um, one thing that was crazy was how many of them would plateau.

Oh my god. cuz they they'd lose a lot of weight but their cl their calories got so low that it's like where you going to go you got 1,200 calories and you got 30 lbs to go man. So I had a client been with me for maybe two months. He messaged me 3 days ago. He goes hey just want to let you know that I've been ramping up my reatride dose. I'm now at 10 milligrams twice a week. And I was like whoa. And he's like but I'm still getting some more cravings.

Can I go higher? And I was like whoa man that's crazy. Yeah. crazy. Yeah. crazy. Yeah. So, So, So, like people are using it like this guy specifically is using it to like eradicate any thought of food. I was like, man, what about just like you know he won't eat he'll eat once a day maybe and like it's crazy how people are just um sort of stuck in this rut or this this belief system of like this is going to solve all my problems and if it's not doing it adequately I need to take more like hold on man that's not how this stuff how I would categorize this stuff for sure.

Oh, the other side too. I I share this on the podcast with the guys. So, I have some people in in close to me that are taking it too. Now, even though I took my trainer brain out of my whole experiment, I what I didn't take an account for is just I've still got years of of good healthy behaviors around food, exercise, and so when I would taste something that wasn't healthy for me, I would like it was bland. I didn't like it. And I realized I recognized that man, I'm eating so low that a a nutritious plate sounded good to me.

And so I craved actually the the better foods. And I and I and I so even though I wasn't doing anything going my way, I still actually preferred chicken and rice and like real like healthy stuff. When I see other people who don't have that connection at all, I literally they're just eating less. Yeah. They're eating twice a day, but it's fire Cheetos and then they're on their toilet just [ __ ] up and not connecting the dots. They're like, you know, that that's what's doing that, right?

right? right? They don't get it. They still don't. And so, and they're losing weight because they're only eating, you know, 800 calories of Fire Cheetos, Cheetos, Cheetos, right? right? right? And they're paying for it on the toilet all day long and then still going back to it. It's like, whoa, that's crazy that this thing is working. It's keeping them from eating hardly anything. But even the signal of you are effed up every time you do that is not enough. It's a reward, right? I'm doing good.

So, I'm going to reward reward myself with Cheetos. with Cheetos. with Cheetos. And while Lee I was asking him cuz I remember I'm like cuz I remember also doing this ice cream has always been my uh kryptonite and uh I had some in the freezer doing the GLP one and Katrina would be asking me. She's like um do you not even want I'm like no I have no desire for it. And she's like have you tried it? I'm like no I haven't because I haven't wanted it.

She's like well I wonder if you tried it if you'd feel different. I'm like okay you know I'll try it one day. So I decided to go in there and I took a bite of it. I'm like, "Wow, that's the first time in my life I ever took a bite of ice cream and I didn't desire it didn't taste good and I had no desire for another bite." So, what's and I asked this person the same thing. I'm like, "Does it does it taste good to you when you have?" And she's like, "No." And I'm like, "And you're still doing it." So, there's not even the reward system of this tastes good.

It's more that they just have a habit of that [ __ ] that I still gravitate towards that even though it doesn't have those it's not hitting those pleasure signals the same way. way. way. I think what we're going to do with JLP1 just cuz people are just the way that they're going to be used. They're just going to take them. Uh, and I think what we're gonna do is come out of uh, an obesity epidemic and just go face first into a frailty epidemic. That's what I think is gonna happen because you're seeing people reporting issues.

issues. issues. Yeah. Cuz you're starting to see people reporting osteopenia, you know, because they're just they're not strength training, they're not eating enough, their protein intake's low, and they're just they're just losing weight. weight. weight. Uh, and they didn't have uh and they're losing muscle and they didn't have a lot of muscle to lose to begin with. And so the big thing that I'm seeing is uh digestive issues like people's microbiome being dysfunctional like like motility slows way down way down right so like that's going to be a huge problem that's going to lead to like a whole slew of whether it be small intestinal bio overgrowth whether it be autoimmunity like it's going to be some issues coming out of digestive tracts tracts tracts well and it and it ties back to what I so part of by slowing it down like that those foods like fire cheaters don't digest well and they then they get that feedback what I found quickly was like man if when I was eating good food.

I didn't have any of that issue. Soon as I ate out of bounds, like oh just back to the other thing a lot of people aren't talking about either is the uh rise in um resting heart rate. Uh that 25% I saw was that was a ZIC which is extremely high. extremely high. extremely high. Yeah. And it's higher with redatide it looks like. looks like. looks like. Really? Really? Really? Yeah. Because of the the triple agonism. And so what some people are reporting is insomnia, insomnia, insomnia, elevated heart rate, a little bit of anxiety uh from it.

Uh so that'll be interesting as more people use it to see what's going on. But it's you could predictably based on the data um get a rise in resting heart rate from just from going on one. Yeah, I saw that in OSI. I haven't seen in red or true but to be honest I haven't been looking so I'll I'll look more closely. more closely. more closely. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating stuff. Well yeah we'll see what happens. Have you looked at genetic considerations whether it be around GLPS or specifically how and this is interesting speaking about your friend with the with the with the Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. with the Cheetos. Um there's there's a lot of different genetic considerations on how people perceive food at level of the brain, the level of the pallet, the level of the digestive tract. There's a whole different level number of levels that so if you run somebody's genetic panel, you can see how they're going to respond to food. They can you can see levels of impulsivity. You can see uh they may have um you know low leptin levels. You can see very specific things. And so I think that's going to be the next level of of um you know precision when it comes to these GLPS.

you're going to start looking at your genes saying like, "Hey, this is the exact mechanism by which you're going to fail." So, if I look at somebody's genetic profile, I can see um you know, maybe this person has a lower sensitive pallet to fats. So, when when they eat cashews or peanut butter, they're going to want to eat more of it because you know, we have a different level of of satiation in the mouth. Some people can eat a little bit and they're good. Some people are going to eat all of it.

And you can literally see the genes for that. that. that. So, like, okay. And then you ask the question like, hey, do you have a tendency to overeat when you eat fats? Yes, I do. Great. We can see that happen genetically and we can say like, okay, this is where this person's most likely to break down. Yeah, that's the next level of precision that's we're not far off. Like I think we can get a pretty good insight. good insight. good insight. I mean, imagine that for coaching, how cool that would be just to know to have that that insight.

So, we do that now that we shifted to coaching about 18 maybe 24 months ago now. So, we work with a team of geneticists and everyone the the insights are remarkable because it just allows you to be so much more effective. Yeah. No, of course. I mean, we always we tell we teach our trainers this. Uh, one of the keys of being a great coach and trainer is the ability to forecast for your client. You know, can you tell them the hurdles and challenges that they're going to have before they have it?

Huge difference versus explain their challenges they've been having without them telling you. Right. Right. Because that I mean otherwise you just start training this person then they have those things and then it's like oh they're blaming the not lack of results or the struggles they're having on you as it's like whereas if I tell my client that hey listen this is what's going to happen week four you're going to feel like this yeah we're going to I'm going to increase calories initially and you're going to feel this way you're going to be holding a little bit more water it's going to scale is going to go up that's all normal and then you're going to see so if you can tell them what's going to happen before it happens your ability to coach them through that process you're Did I actually allow you to identify by the constraint.

So like everyone, you know, Sal's going to diet, you're going to diet, Justin's going to die, I'm going to diet. We're going to feel, we're going to feel a different constraint along the way, right? Constraint may be I'm hungry. Constraint may be I don't want to eat. Maybe the constraint is I have cravings. And and there's a wide different array of how we would be constrained in a diet or or any type of approach to fitness plan. So looking at your genes, I can literally look at everyone's genes and go, this is going to be your constraint.

This is where you're going to struggle. And if we can identify in advance, we can also change it. We can also plan for it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, oh, I know exactly where Adam's going to struggle, right? And so, some people are going to be prone to anxiety. Some people are going to have high level baseline adrenaline, so they're going to be fidgety, and they're going to want to going to want they're going to want to cheat on their diet to compensate for the adrenaline.

We can literally see so much at the level of the jeans. It's very cool. Very, very cool. Very interesting. It's always a good time having you on the show, dude. It's [clears throat] always a lot of fun, my friend. It's been too long. Yeah. It's good to see you. We hope to have Yeah, we got to do this again soon. Not wait 8 years. Yeah. Going to drag you guys down to Tampa. Tampa. Tampa. Yeah, I know. I think you're so far. That's the thing. I know it's shorter when you come over here.

here. here. I I' I'd want to come train at your gym, dude. That was one of my favorite gyms I'd ever trained in. I thought it was just one of the best ones. And I If you want to put on some muscle, you let me know. Don't encourage this guy, dude. I'll be there. Don't encourage this guy. Tell you what, what why are you doing this? What's what's going with you? What's your goal? What's Nothing. Just Nothing. Just Nothing. Just Oh, no. It's an addiction, dog.

No, it's always been of course it is. Yeah, it's always been. Yeah. No, he he he openly admits it. No, there were two big No, there were two big big things that uh that made a big impact on. One of them which was big was I finally figured out what was wrong with my gut health. I finally fixed I had struggled with gut health for so long and done so many things and it was just there was a certain amount of food I could eat and then I I'd end up getting problems and it was like I don't know know know uh maybe uh 10 years of just on and off and and the way that I would solve it when it get real bad is I I'd have to fast and then I'd have to do all these other things and so it was just very limited by it.

You'll never believe what it was. cuz I had I had to treat myself for parasites. And once I did the treatment for parasites, uh it fixed uh my gut issues. So when that got better, um I mean I was able to absorb what I could eat and I could eat normally. That made a huge difference. Um and then hormone replacement therapy on top of it made a big difference. We got tested, somebody offered to to to test us for free cuz they wanted to work with us.

My testosterone came back in the floor and I didn't know it was in the floor. Um but once I got that up, it was great. That's right. You weren't you weren't on hormone therapy when we all first met him, huh? him, huh? him, huh? No. No. I had gut health issues and maybe low testosterone back then. I had no idea. no idea. no idea. Um, so hormone therapy fixed my gut and then anadrol. Those are the three things that that that 600 milligrams of train a week.

That's it. That's it. It made a big I made a huge difference. The gut health thing alone probably 15 pounds of muscle just for my gut health alone. It was such a big deal. That's it. And where'd you get parasites? Huh? Huh? Huh? Did you like traveling? Who knows, dude? I you know I think you know that's a great topic. I think uh I don't think it's obviously it's not super common in the sense that uh you're not going to eat I thought it is if you eat sushi on a regular basis.

regular basis. regular basis. Well what I was going to say is look you live in a modern society uh and you've been eating raw vegetables or sushi for 20 years. The odds are you've probably got a parasite at some point. So I don't think you need to do a I don't think you need to treat yourself for parasites every six months or every year. But I think the average person uh has uh encountered parasites at some point. Yeah, of course. And so I tested or you just took the protocol and you felt better.

So my wife got tested. She had a parasite and they're like, "Well, you guys are married so you probably got the parasite, too." So I went on a protocol with her and it was like that was like miraculous. It was crazy. There was a period of healing afterwards. So it wasn't like like right away I'm better, but I could tell I was a lot better. And then the months afterwards it was like, "Oh man, uh huge difference." And that that easily account for 13 to 15 pounds of muscle.

No problem. Wow. Wow. Wow. Just from that. Yeah. Now he eats eight times a day and trains like crazy. No, my training is not crazy. crazy. crazy. He's got the bodybuilder mindset, man. But you don't do Is it specifically goal goal oriented or you just sort of doing it to have fun? Uh I love it. But my I'm Uh I love it. But my I'm mental. So does it matter what direction I'm going? It's going to get mental sometimes. So if I'm trying to get big, I'm going to get obsessed.

If I'm trying to get shredded, I'm going get obsessed. If I'm trying to get strong, I'll get obsessed. So, I think I'll toggle between the three of those. Keep myself in check a little bit. Why not? Why not? Why not? For the rest of your life, you know what I mean? I mean? I mean? So, that's And I have free access have access to peptides all day long. So, you know, I'm the I'm the worst guy to have access. access. access. I mean, he's the best and the worst.

So, he's he's the best and the worst cuz he's the he's our guinea pig. He's What are you guys using for peptides? He's used everything. What am I right now? What am I using? Ask what he has not used. What have you not used? not used? not used? I've tried them all. I've tried most of them. But I I love BPC. I saw your name on the seeds website. I was like, "Oh, fellow. I'm gonna be speaking there. I'm going to be speaking. [clears throat] Excuse me.

Are you gonna be going? No. No. No. I'll be speaking there. Um my I love BPC and thyus and beta. Love those. Combine those together those together those together just for like inflammation, you know. I get a different quality the way my muscles look. I recover better. Maybe the upregulation of growth hormone receptors. I'm not sure. Are you taking growth hormone? Are you taking taking taking No, no, no. I'm on all the all the hormone optimization. So, growth hormone, testosterone, thyroid. Uh testosterone is uh the max that they'll allow me to take, which is 200.

Uh growth hormone is one to two IUs a day. Thyroid 120 milligram 120 of the armor uh every morning. So it's like the whatever you know the optimization. Do you guys ever have Dr. Terry Herto on the podcast? the podcast? the podcast? No. No. No. So he's the head of International Hormone Society. He's been on my show. He's he's a great authority on hormones. He's the same. He's in his mid60s and he says every man should be taking testosterone, growth hormone, thyroid at least. He said probably oxytocin as well.

Every man. He's like otherwise why? Why are you looking? What are you doing? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Wow. I feel like Dr. Cur. I feel like Dr. Cur. Yeah. I mean, it's it improves the quality of your life. I think if you're Look, Doug, I'll give you an example of someone who doesn't need testo. Doug comes back. His testosterone levels come back 11, 1200 naturally. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Naturally. So, Naturally. So, Naturally. So, animal. animal. animal. Yeah. Total animal back. So, he's he's Yeah.

the healthiest one out of all of us. And he doesn't have to get any of that stuff. Yeah. But what I one of the issues too is I'll get blood work done and it comes back and the doctor's like, "Man, you got the best looking blood work I've ever seen." So that just makes me cool. I just take more peptides in. I guess I'm okay. I'm I guess I'm okay. I'll wait till something comes back, red flag, and then I'll change it. That's good, man. That's good stuff.

Good [ __ ] dude. All right. Yeah. Good having you, bro. Thanks, boys. Thanks, boys. Thanks, boys. All right. I know you like that episode. If you did, check this one out. Shredded, ripped, defined, singledigit body fat. Yes. You want to get there? Let's talk about it. it. it. difficult and is it worth it? That's a follow-up question. follow-up question. follow-up question. Yeah. First off, we got to say that okay, so single-digit body fat, obviously body fat percentages, uh that could be represented by one digit like 3%, 5%, 6%, 9%.

That's uh ripped for men. For women, add 10%. add 10%. add 10%. Yeah. Don't Yeah, exactly. Go you go up about