Seven Doorways to a Richer, More Alive Experience | Rosa Lewis

Key Takeaway

Sacred sadness isn't about wallowing—it's about staying present with grief while remaining connected. When you feel sad, resist the urge to distract yourself. Instead, let the emotion move completely through your body by staying with the direct sensations, not the stories. Put on sad music if needed, cry deeply, and feel it fully in the present moment. This opens your heart and builds capacity for presence, creating space for what matters most in life.

Episode Overview

Rosa Lewis, meditation teacher and mystic, explores how to unlock deeper levels of being through wholehearted presence. The conversation covers seven aspects of experience—including sacred sadness, sensitivity, and the dark night of the soul—that most people resist but which serve as gateways to living more awake and alive. Lewis emphasizes that presence isn't about controlling experience but allowing all parts of ourselves, including difficult emotions, to flow freely.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Seven Doorways to a Richer, More Alive Experience | Rosa Lewis from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Rosa Lewis, welcome to the show. Thanks, yeah. Really nice to be here. Okay, so Okay, so Okay, so so many questions for you, but the first one is you describe yourself as not only a meditation teacher, but also a mystic. And so I'd just be curious of what what does that mean actually? Yeah. Yeah, it's a great question. Um and it's and it's and it's you know, it's like a whole topic that I feel like feel like feel like we could probably spend an hour just talking about what that means.

So I'll try and be be succinct, but um yeah, I guess one of the most important parts of it is that there's a a deeper aspect of reality than just the sort of logical logical logical linear time rational material world that is um is um is um yeah, sort of focused on by a lot of uh humanity as the main aspect of experience. And then there are these sort of deeper more subtle realms of um experience that are present and like linear and and time isn't always linear.

There's like different ways in which causality can happen and um the the the yeah, there's a connection to something bigger than just us. So you could call that a kind of um um um like a divinity or a mystery or uh Buddha nature or something that has an an an intelligence and a rhyme and a reason that isn't isn't this sort of like just logical linear logical linear logical linear rational material realm that um yeah, that we're in. And I would say that the the being a mystic is um um um yeah, a kind of communing with those those parts of experience, being connected to them, being open to them.

That being more the sort of baseline of reality and um experience sort of like arising from there as as its main source. So what in the subtitle of your book, you use the word presence. Mhm. Like being present. Mhm. The the full title just for the listener, I will have said this in the intro, but just just to just to just to make sure I properly promote the book. Uh it's called Unlocking the Depths of Being, Wholehearted Presence for a Mystical Reality. Reality. Reality. I'm I'm I'm narrowing in on the word presence because I think that's something that everybody gets being awake and aware right now, right here in the present moment.

If I understand correctly and you I hope you will correct me if I don't. That really is for many of us the gateway into what you're describing in terms of a deeper level of reality or mysticism. mysticism. mysticism. Yes. Yeah. For me it like yeah, it will starts there because otherwise it's just kind of you're you're actually just adding like ideas and concepts and going off into off into off into somewhere else and it's it's actually yeah, you go through the door of presence. Wholeheartedness is in there as well because it's about um it's about wholeness and feeling and yeah, embodiment and and the um and like showing up and being in the moment.

Um and sort of committing to yeah, committing to presence and committing to to the full spectrum of what that can mean. And then as that as you practice and um through meditation and other things yeah, these other other aspects of experience which I'm sure we'll talk about, it's like what it means to be in the present moment can start to get uh broader and more expansive. So whether So whether So whether or not a listener understands exactly what you Rosa are pointing at when you talk about a deeper level of reality aka the mystical whether whether we get that or not just is it you it's important to know like the the only way to get it is through waking up right now.

Like it the only way to to get to that state is by being awake and aware right now. Yes. Yeah, it happens by paying attention to your immediate experience in the present moment and being the the the here with what is in your body, your heart heart heart in your direct experience. So we're going to get to the how of all of this and um your book really lays out these like seven aspects of our present moment experience that we can kind of unlock um and look and investigate.

Um But before we do that, I'm just curious like how did you get where you are now? Like what how does one become a mystic? I think the you know wise ass in me that will never go away um um um would say, you know, like just dozens of ayahuasca trips? Like what so what what's on your CV in order to get to call yourself a mystic? Yeah. Yeah, there there are some psychedelics sprinkled in there and I'm not uh I I think that psychedelics open things up, but it's more it's more um meditation and shadow work focused actually.

actually. actually. Um Um Um and and and um um um it's interesting because now when I look back on uh when I was a child and a and a young adult, there were a lot of elements of mystical experience there, but I was in a very rational paradigm and so I was kind of seeing I was sort of like discounting that and seeing that seeing through that lens. Um but my sort of experience of when I first started experiencing these things is um I I I did a Well, there was a few things that happened at once.

One was I got a bad concussion and that just sort of like shh shh shh affected how it's kind of like opened my mind a little bit to to what was going on and then I sort of listened to a few was listening to a few kind of like more spiritual things, some Alan Watts type stuff and having sort of like energetic responses to to that where which I didn't really have a bucket to put that in. I was still in a very rational frame, but just these sort of like big sort of overwhelming emotional energetic kind of responses where I would hear something and it would be like a sort of transmission quality where I would kind of suddenly be in a very different experience and then uh you know, sort of like synchronicities were showing up and things like that and then um I did a uh uh uh like group shadow work therapy retreat and essentially um yeah, that that's it's like a very embodied embodied embodied um um um therapeutic modality that is about um kind of like opening these different archetypes and and letting these modes and ways of being flow through you more fully.

And my process was around um opening up to the the the lover archetype to to a deeper level of feeling feeling feeling and um and um and um when that happened, then I just sort of started getting a lot more It really really transformed how I experienced the world. For one, I was like I'm allowed to feel these things that I'm normally just repressing. And then for two, with that with more of letting that repression out, uh yeah, just more kind of like archetypal imaginal energetic emotional things started to sort of come in to reality.

And then the more shadow work I did and the more I later start meditation, the more meditation I did, the more the more the more sort of these altered states and different uh parts of experience started coming in. So interesting. So you you're using some terms I'd love to hear some more I I don't know that I know exactly what you mean when you say shadow work uh or archetype or imaginal. I think I kind of know what you're talking about um Jungian stuff, but it but especially for the listener who might have no idea.

Would you mind just teaching us a little bit? Yeah, totally. Yeah, so um yeah, shadow work is it's um um um yeah, a kind of Jungian Jungian Jungian that psychology and then specifically the the type of shadow work I did is a is a specific type made by um a man called Cliff Barry. Uh but it's built on Jung's work and it's really that um essentially there are parts of you that either from birth or through your childhood or or or so young adult hood, it's like it's like it's like you will have learned that there are certain aspects of you that are not uh welcome welcome welcome or certain parts of you that are not certain emotional responses or um so the type of sha- shadow work that I've done, uh Cliff Barry's, it has it uses four archetypes.

So lover, warrior, magician, and sovereign. And lover is really about yeah, like emotions and feeling and um and that sort of realm, whereas magician is a lot more about kind of like thinking and seeing options and being rational and uh being able to perceive what's what's going on. So it's almost like these kind of totally different modes that we have or ways of being. And And And a really common one in our society is that you will have essentially sort of shut down the emotional mode quite a lot and this was true of me as well and and learned to feel less because emotions are not welcome.

And then to compensate, you will like think more and use your you have again an inflated magician use that more and be extra sort of rational and and see see through that lens to avoid feeling. And then, And then, And then, the shadow work bit is that the the lover, the feeling is in shadow. It's like not accessible to you. You can't um Yeah, you can't um sort of there's not just like a free flow of feeling in your life. Um life. Um life. Um And so, you have to basically go back and revisit and sort of unblock that um aspect of your being so that that can can flow more freely.

You can be more in balance. You can have more optionality in your range of how you experience the world, how you show up, what's what's which bits of your being are accessible. Um Um Um And those four archetypes as well are good good example they are examples of archetypes being a kind of sort of like a in this realm that's a bit more um Yeah, a bit less concrete and a bit less literal and a bit more sort of energetic. Things can get a bit soupy and archetypes are kind of like ways of like it's sort of like a meaning a way to gather a bunch of meaning and say like ah yeah, the lover archetype it's sort of it gives people a sense of what you're talking about.

It's it's sort of like a packet of meaning and information, right? It's like oh yeah, it's that's like feeling. That's the bit of me that Yeah, is embodied and soft and open and whereas the magician archetype it's this more sort of mental um um um And so, archetypes are kind of yeah, ways of um sort of pointing towards something that can be a bit fuzzy and hard to hard to grasp. grasp. grasp. Um Um Um Yeah, kind of like a symbol. I'm going to say a bunch of words and then you're going to tell me if the words make sense.

Um and the the the point of the words is to just make sure I understand what you're saying cuz I think it's really interesting. interesting. interesting. Um my understanding is that for you know, a long time in many different traditions we've had different ways of talking about talking about talking about aspects of our personality. You know, there there are the Buddha had a a demon he called him Mara and he would Mara was the like embodiment of delusion and greed and hatred. Um you know, in the Hindu tradition they have inner avatars like aspects of the personality.

Um in in later Christian traditions and I think maybe even ancient Greece and Rome they had either demons or daemons d a e m o n s and in modern psychology we have the modular model of the mind where we have these different modes we go into which either might dog us or we might have been told during our life are unacceptable. unacceptable. unacceptable. Um Um Um so, we we have various levels of health in our relationship with different parts of our personality. Speaking of parts, there's also internal family systems where we relate to different uh we name our different parts and and enter into conversation with them.

So, like just we all know we have different aspects of our personality and occasionally one of these aspects or parts or demons has the steering wheel. Um and Um and Um and uh and occasionally other uh parts of our personality we have no visibility into it all because we weren't ever allowed to by the culture or by our family to have a relationship with them. And I think what you're describing here is that you learn through this work to just kind of like end the war with the various aspects of your psyche uh with which you had you know um unhealthy or relationship with unhealthy relationships with or just total lack of visibility into.

How am I doing? Yeah, yep. Yeah, beautifully put. Yeah. And specifically with the shadow work as well the the they say that that the aim is to have um um um a a a like a nice kind of conference meeting of the of the aspects and the sovereign can listen to all of the aspects and kind of like choose a way forward from there so that they're all present and all available. all available. all available. I like that metaphor. Um I want that for myself for my own fractious intracranial committee.

Um okay, so thank you for your patience in letting me slash us learn a little bit more about you before we dive into um uh some of the your recommendations here. Just again, the book is called Unlocking the Depths of Being a wholehearted presence for a mystical reality. And so, in the book as I understand it and please you'll correct me if I'm misstating at any step along the way here, but in the book as I understand it there are these like seven aspects of experience when it comes to like being present.

Um that we can unlock. Um and I'm not sure we'll get to all seven, but um um um we'll do our best to work through some of them. Um the first is sacred sadness. So, can you just talk a little bit about what that is? Yeah, totally. Yeah, so um I guess everyone knows sadness and I think a lot of people know what sadness feels like to feel when you're sort of disconnected from the world and it feels pretty bad and you don't want to feel sad.

Um Um Um And sacred sadness is really it's it's like feeling sad and feeling connected and feeling that sadness is a deep connective force that connects you more deeply to yourself, to the world, to others. Can open your heart, can make you realize what's important in life. Um and the reason it's first is because I found that with working with people it's like it's like it's like opening to grief and specifically grief this kind of grief that has a connected feel to it is it it's it's like that's a a a kind of prerequisite for for opening to anything mystical because there's there's a there's a kind of like open-hearted open-hearted like willingness to be moved by life and the feeling that that is uh beautiful and it doesn't have to be there's not a kind of control where it it it it I'm only orienting towards good stuff.

That it's sort of like the in Buddhist terms it's like you know, the craving and aversion of just trying to make things different, trying to get to the good stuff, avoid the bad stuff. And And And when people can sort of get a bit of a flavor of sacred sadness or just yeah, opening to their grief more and like feeling safe in that and like ah it's actually this can be beautiful. This can be it's still sad and it's meaningful and it's then that just opens up a a doorway for for something um Yeah, a kind of presence with with less of that craving and aversion happening.

Uh that actually makes complete sense to me that there's something about allowing in the sadness that most of us spend a lot of time medicating away either through actual medication or through scrolling or gambling or shopping or whatever. whatever. whatever. Binging on Netflix. Not against any of those things, but if you know, taken to too far or you're actually just closing yourself off from like a really important part of of life. And doing the hard thing of letting it in I think you're saying is a foundational aspect of you know, living a more vibrant life.

Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, and um I would say a couple of things that that help people with it is that I think um I think in the book I say opening open my heart requires an equal measure of beauty and heartbreak or something like that. And that. And that. And I think art can be a way to do this in a way that's a bit safer. So, I recommend one of the the exercises is listening to sad music and having a cry or also watching a sad film can do it.

Just something where there's like like like uh yeah, that feeling of like the the beauty of it as is is still present as well can be a way for people to sort of like ease in if they want to. Uh Uh Uh Yeah, sort of dip their toes in the water a bit more with it. with it. with it. I'm a big fan of using aesthetics, beauty, art to to feel more. Um That is that is I think pretty readily accessible. If we were to go one click deeper into the less accessible, what would what else would you recommend in this zone?

this zone? this zone? Yeah, there's like a um um um I guess there's like that that the moment of just like when you have have a cry and there's a sort of moment of like if I open to this, I'm just going to get so overwhelmed by like the depths of this sadness. It's kind of like you really let go and you're just there's like almost a kind of it's it's it's sort of like a fear of destruction from it and it's sort of it's almost like you do just let yourself be completely destroyed by it and you cry so you sort of cry so deeply that you really hit the thing and then it you feel that release afterwards.

Um Um Um And I think there's that that process where you're just really like getting into this really really getting into the sadness and really letting it letting it rip. And again, like staying importantly like staying with the present moment experience. One thing I have as well and for each chapter is a kind of in you can you can sort of get an inflated version of sadness where it it it uh you then start to wallow in self-pity and stories about the world being terrible. terrible.

terrible. Um Um Um and it's not about going off into that. It's about the the embodied experience of like letting it through with with tears, with tears, with tears, with uh yeah, with the direct experience in in the emotion. This podcast is brought to you by Function Health, which is a service I have used personally that I have derived a lot of benefit from. I specifically want to talk today about uh the subject of immunity. This is something that is easy to take for granted. Many people only think about their immune system when it fails, but there are ways to get ahead of it.

There are three markers specifically that tell a very powerful story about your immune function, vitamin D, vitamin D, vitamin D, zinc, and hs-CRP. Function tracks all of these alongside 160 plus other markers, uh so you can see exactly where your immune system is supported and where it's vulnerable because immune resilience is not something you build by guessing, you build it with data. Like I said, I've used Function myself. You take uh blood test and then they send you an incredibly detailed summary, which I then use to talk to my doctor.

They test a lot of things that your doctor may not. I found it really helpful. Check your health the way I do. 160 plus lab tests a year for $365 plus the ability to dive deeper into your results with Function's trusted connections to platforms you already use like ChatGPT and Claude. You can join at functionhealth.com/happier functionhealth.com/happier functionhealth.com/happier or use the gift code happier25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. When you're in that level up mindset for your business, it's wild how much the basic stuff matters like how you talk to customers and keep your team on the same page.

A cleaner, more modern setup can make everything feel smoother, which is why today's episode is sponsored by Quo, spelled Q U O, the modern alternative to run your business communications. Quo is the number one rated business phone system on G2 with over 3,000 reviews built for how modern teams work. That's why more than 90,000 businesses from solo operators to growing teams rely on Quo to stay connected, professional, and consistently reachable. Your entire team can handle calls and texts from one shared number. Everyone sees the full thread making replies faster and customers feel genuinely cared for.

Make this the season where no opportunity and no customer slips away. Try Quo for free plus get 20% off your first 6 months when you go to quo.com/happier. That's quo.com/happier. That's quo.com/happier. That's quo.com/happier. Quo, no missed calls, no missed customers. customers. customers. If I'm understanding you correct correctly, it seems like the first could prevent the former could prevent the latter like if if we and I've never actually I'm embarrassed to admit I've actually actually actually never really done what you're suggesting here, although I find it very attractive as an idea as somebody who's not not not super doesn't allow himself to be super emotional.

Um emotional. Um emotional. Um and I'd say that as a weakness. Um But if if we next time we're sad like take it all the way. way. way. Like really let it in. Then you're allowing it to move through as opposed to this kind of ambient sadness we might have by looking at the news for example. And we never really work it all the way through. We're just kind of stuck in this sadness rage cocktail. Um cocktail. Um cocktail. Um And then many of us feel like subconsciously or consciously the need to kind of performatively be morose all the time as if that's going to help.

Um But in fact, we want to let it the emotion move all the way through so that we can have the space to like take effective action depending on what our power and capability is. Uh again, I'm going to try again is am I summing am I reacting in an accurate, helpful way? Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and as it's it's like as um as the there might be a backlog that there's almost always a backlog for people that sort of needs to be felt, but as that opens up, it just becomes more and more kind of spacious and yeah, helps helps helps build presence, build um capacity to to be here.

Um Um Um both because you're more able to the the sadness is sort of a part of what's allowed to be here. And then also because there's yeah, less sort of backlog that's sort of trying to be avoided or carried or or um um um moved around. moved around. moved around. Perhaps the key word that you just used right there is allow. Mhm. Because we do spend a lot of time fending off fending off fending off quote-unquote difficult emotions such as sadness. Yeah. sadness. Yeah. sadness.

Yeah. And I think there's something here which is is is uh I really like that actually. It's like I think all of these seven aspects are essentially about allowing a quality to come to come to come forward. It's not about like creating an experience or experience or experience or needing to get somewhere or like like like having experience show up in a particular way. It's just kind of feeling into a part that is likely to be repressed and giving it some space and and let it letting it come through.

Okay, so very practically the next time we're sad we're sad we're sad like let it rip, I think is what you're saying. Yes. saying. Yes. saying. Yes. And if that's difficult for you, um find some sad music to listen and and feel along with and and see if that like makes it helps it feel safer and and it makes it makes some some tears or a bit more feeling. A- And again, so once whether we're letting it rip just because we have the capacity in the moment or we're going to um help midwife the full birth of the emotion with uh some sad music.

In either case, the pitfall of the path would be um um um wallowing in it. Um And so I think it might be worth you just clarifying again how we walk that line between letting taking it all the way and not wallowing. Yes. Um Yeah, so the the key is I guess where we it's the presence where we started and it's if so if it's staying with staying with staying with direct direct direct sensation and emotion in the present moment. Um moment. Um moment. Um And so if someone has like an embodiment practice, that might be easier to do through the door of like yeah, really feeling the sensations in the body.

If someone's more of a meditator, it might be like or of a passive meditator kind of like noting the sensations as they come or just something that if if you're drifting off, just like staying s- staying with the body is is the the sort of I would say the the clearest way to stay on the stay with the thing that you want to be staying with. So if you find yourself getting stuck in stories of oh, I I really been screwed by my family and I'm I'm like this.

I'm always going to be like this or um nobody's ever going to love me like all all that is those are thoughts about the past and the future and what you really want is no no, you're digging deep in a kind of gentle investigatory way into like what's happening right now. now. now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is my new homework assignment. Um Well, let's move on to the second of the seven aspects seven aspects seven aspects um that you talk about in the book and and and that is sensitivity.

What do you mean specifically by sensitivity? One thing I've discovered from working with a lot of people one-to-one and in groups is that people experience the world very differently. It's important to include that because otherwise people will often try to be someone else or something. Uh there's a sort of move away from your own sensitivity, your own um it's sort of like the the kind of one one way I used to describe tell people to get in touch with this is is the way that you've always experienced the world world since you were a kid.

And it's sort of like the small it's a very small part of you. And it's just um before um before um before you get to the point where you have kind of like intellectual overlays and ideas and and and um like strong desires and all of these things like that are sort of maybe bigger and stronger and kind of on on layered on top. It's sort of like a a small just a sort of small receptivity that can yeah, like listen and notice what's here and be present with it and sort of receive.

Yeah, and specifically your unique sensitivity. Like what does that feel like to to feel and to be you and to what are the things that you're you're picking up on? Um just sort of validating that finding that and validating it and exploring it as as a topic really. So so for you, the term sensitivity is kind of and I just want to make sure I understand this um because I think it's interesting. Especially when you invoke like how we were as kids. Like there's some kind of factory setting for us of um how we experience the world.

How open our aperture is maybe. Um Um Um And it it can get papered over. It can get get get it can get paved over uh by the the the events of our subsequent life. But by sensitivity, I think you're pushing us to like get back in touch with this with this with this original stance. original stance. original stance. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, and it has a strong sort of like it connects to the quality of innocence as well. Of just this sort of yeah. of yeah.

of yeah. Original natural Original natural Original natural kind of been there since you were a kid. Just how you receive the world before it gets gummed up with a bunch of stuff. Yeah, how would we Again, I find this very intriguing. Um Um Um Cuz I I kind of like the childhood version of myself better than I like the current version of myself. So, what what very practically can we do to get back in touch with that? Yeah, so there's a exercise in the book and it's uh it starts with just building some safety in the different aspects of yourself.

So, yourself. So, yourself. So, um um um like one thing that pulls us out of that kind of sensitivity is that it's just not safe to be for the naturalness to sort of be itself. There's a a sense of like having to put on a posture or a mask or a defense or a and you know, they get stacked up as we go through life. Um and so it's sort of like getting into a safe um um um place, you know, like a place where you're meditating and you know, nothing's uh nothing's going to come get you or you or you or um um um you don't have to be a certain way and and then and then and then sort of letting that infuse.

And then spending some time the the question yeah, what what's what's the way of being that's been there since a kid is a good way good um there's a few more questions as well in the book, but like just sitting with that and trying to feel into other specific aspects of experience that I yeah, feel or focus on or sense or that's the the sort of individual thing and then also we do on on retreats I've sort of work with this quite a lot where often people uh again, it's the allowing thing.

Often people are like um um um for some reason they have to have learned that they're not allowed to see what they can see and actually if you start saying to people oh, just um just like describe what you're seeing sitting partners and just just describe what you're seeing in their emotions or describe what you imagine that in a world might be like or describe and you you can actually see a lot more than you think you can see. There's like a lot more sensitivity there, but we've sort of uh learned not to include it because it's not polite or I don't know for many reasons, I guess, but um you can so you can also do it in in sort of pairs or small groups and explore it um as a team.

So, in the pairs I want to get back to the individual practice in a second because I I have an advantage over you cuz I have that actual words in front of me. So, I'm going to read them back to you. Um Um Um Uh but um just that curious about the the the pairs thing. So, you're sitting there and saying what you can see about the other person. Mhm. Yeah. Like how do you stop people from being dicks? Cuz I would be like oh well, I can see you have terrible taste in clothing or you know, um um um whatever.

I don't know I mean I probably wouldn't genuinely be a jerk, but I mean I might say things that don't land well or want to say things that don't land well. well. well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I guess in the context of a retreat we'll have a pretty good uh sort of of of base sign set up where it's um um um yeah, about letting people have their experience and um not taking it personally and kind of sharing what's coming up and um having a bit of space for people to uh correct, you know, if you have a projection about me and it's incorrect, I would have space to say oh, it doesn't feel true for me.

This actually feels true or um and just make more yeah, much more space for that to it to be a sort of group experiment and a sharing and a a big high openness to what that could be. Um be. Um be. Um as the sort of foundation of of where we're we're speaking from. Feels interesting. Slightly dangerous. Um l- Um l- Um l- Let's go back to the individual practice. Um practice. Um practice. Um It's called the trusting experience meditation and again this is to help us you know, get in touch with with what Rosa's calling sensitivity.

And so there are three steps to this process. I'm going to walk through going to walk I'm going to walk through this Rosa and then I'll let you just hold forth on the other side, but I have I have the notes and I don't think you do. do. do. Um Um Um So, it starts with some affirmations like some things you can say to yourself and this is the safety part you were talking about before. You know, your experience is welcome as it is. It's safe for you to see the truth.

Shadows and dissonance are welcome. There's a deeper layer of meaningfulness. meaningfulness. meaningfulness. So, you're just sending the signal I think from mind to body and beyond that you're okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's cool. It's cool. It's cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The second The second The second step is space. So, it's just kind of just like leaving space for sensations or emotions or images to arise. I think this is probably helpful if you have a meditation experience. meditation experience. meditation experience. Um enough stability in the mind to observe whatever's happening without getting carried away by it, although that will of course happen.

And then the final step is inquiry and it's asking this question what is a way of seeing or feeling that has been there since you were a child? What is something you're highly sensitive to? Yeah. Do you want to say more about it? It might be an inquiry that takes people a bit of time, you know, it might even be sort of like an inquiry that takes people weeks and months to to really get to like some of the ways that that is true for them, but yeah, essentially I've just found working with many people one-to-one that they have ways it's quite kind of magical.

It's almost like ways that they see the world that they think it's like the water they're swimming in a bit where um um um yeah, some people are just really like keyed into other people's emotions and just get a lot of information about that. They don't even sort of realize that they get it or other people it's like really sort of um a way more kind of like technical and notice notice notice um um um I don't know, but I this one's hard for me to imagine cuz I'm not like this, but like very specific high-res kind of technical technical technical things about experience or what's what's around and around and around and uh uh uh it's just these sorts of different um um um yeah, different ways and modes and um um um something something clicks in when someone someone someone uh realizes that about themselves and validates their experience because before that it there it can be a kind of um um um a sort of maybe like it's subtly leaving your own experience or something that happens um rather than just like living in it and from it.

Um and when you're living in it and from it, it's more free to flow. This is super interesting. Um Um Um Okay, so we're just to reset for the listener we're walking through the seven aspects of of the experience of being alive that that we might um not really fully investigate or even actively resist that we can use to to be more awake and alive and awake and alive in our lives. In other words, be more present. One of the most venerable spiritual cliches presence, but uh um but nonetheless extremely important um and as as discussed earlier with Rosa like the like the like the the gateway to to what we might call the mystical.

mystical. mystical. Um so, the third we've worked through the first two. Uh the third is the dark night of the soul, which soul, which soul, which doesn't sound super fun, but uh what do you mean specifically by it? you what do you mean specifically by it? Yeah, that's the reason why it has to be included because included because included because it is it is it is not the fun bit, but it is an important bit. bit. bit. And And And what I mean by that is that um yeah, it's sort of pointing to that shadow work shadow work shadow work element and element and element and it's really that there is a lot in experience in individual experience, in the collective, in the world that is hard to be with and intense and um um um yeah, overwhelming and we would ideally want it to be another way way way where where where um yeah, either from like an individual perspective we'd want it to be the way that yeah, like I specifically want it to be or equally like on a collective level there's obviously things that are just like super like super like super um um um inherently kind of sad and difficult and it's just about including that part of experience and not turning away and letting that be a part of what's here and letting that in to your system so that that that um um um again, it's like coming out of the the craving and of an aversion um um um and coming into just a more kind of like a wholehearted welcoming of the full spectrum of experience.

experience. experience. And um And um And um yeah, this bit can get super uh super sort of like mystical in the way that it it shows up and I think it's talked about in in the stages of insight and Vipassanā meditation. There's always that that that as you as you meditate and pay attention to experience, it's um you know, you get these different phases and at some point you're just in a lot of sort of fear and disgust and misery and that's just like part of the what needs to flow through in order to come further out into into equanimity.

equanimity. equanimity. Um Um Um but it also happens on this emotional level where it's it's almost like as you open the heart, as you open yourself to more presence, more presence, more presence, you're kind of opening to these more lovely beautiful parts of experience and that's that's that's great, but the aperture's kind of going in all directions and so as more comes in, more darkness is going to come in and it's and it's and it's um um um yeah, giving space for that to flow through so that um it can be processed, it can be included, it can be uh uh uh welcome.

You can build the capacity to to be with it and then you get this sense of like uh uh uh yeah, robustness yeah, robustness yeah, robustness and equanimity that can be present with a broader range of experience. It's the um um um it's the bad news that we often that we don't often lead with when we're encouraging people to get into meditation or spirituality. Um Um Um or allowing uh to go back to that word, um that if you're truly, you know, letting stuff in, being more awake, um you know, taking off the blinders that uh our modern tech-obsessed world wants us to wear, so that we're better consumers and uh scrollers, et cetera, et cetera, um it's not all going to be bliss.

This is This is This is much of what you'll take in will be difficult and that's why they call it the dark night of the soul that it it nothing's not this isn't um a malfunctioning. This is a part of the path that has been recognized and described for millennia. There's something about including it that I mean, it's still pain painful and hard. It I think in part of including it is is uh recognizing that this this kind of like like like in my experience there's no bypassing this completely.

Um but if you don't talk about it and people hit that territory, then it can make it worse because people feel on top of the the struggle, people then put a layer on which is I'm doing something wrong, there's something wrong with me, with me, with me, there's no way out of this, there's, you know, you then get this sort of extra layer of that this is bad. Whereas if it's something that is included and says, you know, this is going to come up and it's going to be intense and the one of the reasons it comes up is as an alchemical opportunity to to transmute something or a chance to like deepen your wisdom into greater equanimity or a chance to then people have more more of a sense of resilience around it because they can see that it's even though it's hard, it's it can be a good thing that it's coming up and up and up and uh it has a meaning, it has a purpose, there's a there's a yeah, that there's there's there's good things to to come from the experience even if the experience itself is hard.

In the book, you describe an exercise uh for uh for uh for you know, kind of leaning into the thing that we don't want to lean into. Um I think it's called the life-death-rebirth cycle. It's like a visualization to release stuck energy. Can you Can you walk us through it? Mhm. So again, I don't have it in front of me, so if I if I do something different, you can tell me, but um um um yeah, it's um the the the the the first step is to think about how you relate to death and um specifically it it it's not that you need to take on relating to death in any specific way, but from a like modern individualist capitalist rationalist world, a lot of people are really really scared of death.

And death. And death. And uh it's not that you don't have to be scared, but there there are other ways that you can relate to death. And just spending some time feeling that there might be something um um um kind of nice about it, also. Yeah, like a returning home or a a release or a um these sorts of qualities might be in death and um so the exercise starts by sort of just bringing in some of those possibilities and then like spending a bit of time being with the imaginal qualities of death.

And um lots of people have a hard time understanding what the imaginal is, but the but death is actually one of the best ways to think about it because we don't have any uh there's no way of actually knowing what is on the other side of death. Everything we think about is is death is inherently imaginal inherently imaginal inherently imaginal because it doesn't have a um yeah, like a a logical concrete um um um thing in our in our world. And so um um um there's like a some questions to connect people to to this this imaginal experience.

And so it's sort of feeling into like, ah what what Yeah, what do you imagine is there on the other side of death? What's the um what's the like vibe of it? What if if even if it's just like a void that you think is uh death is a void, is it like a black void? Is it a white void? Is it a transparent void? Are there sort of like these imaginal these imaginal these imaginal if you believe in God and a like higher intelligence, what does that intelligence know?

intelligence know? intelligence know? Um like where are you going? Where is it compared to this universe? And just sort of like feeling through some of this not to get the answer, obviously, because there's no way of validating, but just to feel it in your system imaginarily, like what do I How do I relate to death? And kind of build it out a bit and get a bit of a more of a sort of emotional resonance going, resonance going, resonance going, where it's not just this is a scary bad thing that I don't ever want to happen.

It's more like, ah this is a sort of experience that I'm going to go through one day and how do I relate to it and what How does it show up in my experience and what is it? Um Um Um and then once that's sort of a bit more alive, you can use that to um um um essentially bring in some bits of experience that you want to be different to how they are and just imagine them going getting absorbed by that death and seeing if that changes that changes that changes changes how you relate to it in the experience and if it if it changes what's showing up at all.

If a driver in your fleet got in an accident tomorrow, could you prove what actually happened? Without footage, it's much harder, so your insurance rates spike and you're stuck paying for it. That's why so many fleets choose Samsara's AI-powered dash cams, clear video evidence, real-time alerts, and coaching tools that help prevent accidents before they happen. But Samsara is more than a dash cam, it's a complete connected operations platform with GPS tracking, asset visibility, maintenance insights, safety analytics, and compliance tools all in one place. Protect your drivers, cut costs, and operate smarter with Samsara.

I always want to show love to the hardworking men and women who keep America running. Those include truck drivers, field crews, warehouse teams, but who's looking out for them? That's what Samsara does. Don't wait for the next accident to take action. Head to samsara.com/happier samsara.com/happier samsara.com/happier to request a free demo and see how Samsara brings visibility and safety to your operations. That's samsara.com/happier. samsara.com/happier. samsara.com/happier. Samsara, operate smarter. Most small business owners I know, and I would include myself in this category, lie awake running through mental to-do lists.

lists. lists. But if there's one thing you can easily check off, it's your website. With Wix Harmony, creating a website takes about as long as a coffee break. It lets you get your website up and running super fast without compromising your vision, so you can stop losing sleep over one more thing on the list. Wix Harmony is the flagship AI website builder from our sponsor today, Wix, wix. All you do is you describe your idea and get a fully functional site built for you with built-in solutions for every business type, e-commerce, restaurants, services, you name it.

Every website is backed by 99.9% 99.9% 99.9% uptime and enterprise-grade security, no add-ons required. Enjoy a creation process that is as natural as thinking. You can flow between describing what you want and editing things by hand to shape every detail of your site. It's super easy to generate and edit custom images, text, web pages, sections, web components, et cetera. This is what you want if you're a small business owner, believe me, I get it. Ready to create your website? Go to wix.com/harmony. That's wix.com/harmony. So if we start from the from the from the thesis that look look uh life is life can be difficult um uh and there can be lots of dark nights of the soul uh and um um um avoiding it is not going to help us um really.

really. really. It might be good for a minute or two, but it's not really an abiding strategy. So one way one portal into some a deeper way of being alive is to, you know, kind of let it in. So, if we start from that idea, idea, idea, it's a natural progression I think you're saying to all right, how do we practice this? Well, let's conjure the thing that most of us are most afraid of the the most difficult aspect of being alive, which is the terrifying mystery of death.

Um and let's see if we can't um make it as vivid as possible in our mind um through this guided practice guided practice guided practice um or through this, you know, the practice that we guide ourselves through uh so that we can um maybe achieve a degree of equanimity with this inevitability. Yes. Yeah, exactly. And then it sort of it also sort of folds in on itself where if you're comfortable with that, one of the things that keeps you away from the challenging stuff and in a more is this sense of I need to be in control.

I need to sort of keep of keep of keep um um um keep experience together in a very specific way. Keep the bad stuff out. And when there's a sense of death, uh death is okay. It's sort of it can sort of get this like metaphorical um momentum behind it where it's like oh I can let go. I I um you know, you know, you know, the the sort of smaller things that that can seem can seem can seem a bigger deal. It's like it's almost like a little mini mini ego death of just like oh well, I said something silly.

Never mind. It that you sort of like let that bit of your ego kind of die or you I um you know, you know, you know, like yeah, that Does that make sense? It's sort of like um Yes. The bad coming in doesn't seem as bad if it's just if it's just a sort of mini or quite major sort of ego death that's that's occurring. occurring. occurring. Yeah, I mean it's kind of like a the least the way I understand or operationalize what I think you're saying is saying is saying is um um um in light of death, the I'm worried about isn't that deep.

deep. deep. Mhm. Um and uh then the trick is to keep death top of mind. Um so that we can view keep our um um um keep our problems in perspective. What one way that I find helpful and it's I really like the exercise you're describing. describing. describing. But one way I perhaps additional way for people is is the Buddha's five daily remembrances, you know, what once in the morning once at night. I've I really have been able to get into the habit of just recalling um um um this body is of the nature to grow old, grow old, grow old, get sick, die.

I'm going to someday lose everything and everybody I hold dear uh uh uh and as as a as a result, the only real possessions I have are my actions. Um Um Um And just doing that twice a day, I mean it doesn't mean I never get carried away by but um I think I'm less less likely to because death is closer. It just has more salience for me than it used to. Yeah. Yeah, love that. Okay, we're moving through our list here. The fourth um aspect of experience that you're suggesting we suggesting we suggesting we unlock unlock unlock on route to presence uh is and these are your words falling in love with experience.

Say more, please. Yeah, so um there's going to be a a reason to do it, right? Is one thing. And And um um um yeah, I just think it's it's really it's kind of like letting letting that happen, letting beauty, joy, uh uh uh just all the lovely beautiful stuff flow and um and um and um yeah, that's going to be different for everyone like what that is and how how what makes them feel feel feel that about life and I think spending some time really being being with that in yourself and remembering moments and feeling the the sort of heart heart opening qualities of it and being being inspired by it, being um um um just enjoying it and yeah, I guess this one came up from um from from working with people a lot.

It's It's It's this there's such an easy like self-punishing mode that people go into. And And And uh either like full of yeah, like self-critique or kind of like um uh maybe turning practice into like another thing that you have to do and be really really really you know, um discipline is obviously can be an important part, but that it can tip over into this sort of like yeah, more just self-punishing and uh sort of practical I have to go through the steps and I have to do this and I have to and I I've just found that the more people's heart is online, the more like uh open-heartedness and passion and and joy that is flowing, the easier the the path becomes and the more naturally it sort of stems from this place of of love rather than um yeah, sort of punishment, I guess.

I mean I don't think anybody's going to argue with this. This this one sounds good. good. good. Um Um Um yet again, I think the question is like how? how? how? Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah, so I think that there's a um there's like a vulnerability required in it. In the same way of like and I and I talk about this in there about um that that that sort of soulmates or specific things or places might inspire a lot of love and the I think the the sort of downside of the thing that stops it is the same as if you're falling in love with the person where person where person where uh it's kind of scary to open your heart and like be vulnerable and really feel what you feel and like let it flow through you.

Um but but but yeah, it's just finding those um um um people or places things that inspire the the joy and love in you and um like yeah, connecting connecting to that and and really letting it letting it flow, letting it be present. So, there's a there's another guided practice here um the three steps are one, recall like recall a moment when you felt alive and I think the words you use are where everything in experience was singing together. Could be a person, place, some sort of past mystical experience.

The second step is to intensify it. You might say to yourself, let the felt sense of being in love live through you. If you're holding back, uh turn the sensations up 10 times stronger. And then the third is inquiry. Third step is inquiry. Ask, you know, who are you when you're connected to this love? What would it mean to live from this from this from this heart-connected place? heart-connected place? heart-connected place? Yeah. Yeah, and there's something there. I think specifically the turning it up 10 times, it's sort of trying to um it's trying to sort of um um um yeah, yeah, yeah, avoid the thing where it's like oh it's scary.

I'm not sure I want to I or like self-judgment or things that stop you feeling um it's really just letting you like let it rip. And then the the kind of connecting it back to who you are is that um um um yeah, falling in love with experience is not not not uh it's it's just it's just unhooking the the feeling from and then I need to sort of get something from that. Like I'm falling in love with this place and so I need to come back here all the time or I'm falling in love with this person, so we need to have this certain type of relationship.

It's it's it's keeping it back to that the sensations that it's bringing up in you and the mode and the feeling and the inspiration is the is the point. It doesn't need to go somewhere. Uh it's sort of that the the process and the feeling of falling in love is the purpose rather than um that sort of yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm falling in love and then therefore I want this and this and this to happen. Right. Right. Right. Because that's not being present. That's that's projecting forward.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I think we can sneak in one more here. here. here. Cool. Cool. Cool. So, number five on your list is potency. potency. potency. It's actually potency colon the Kali inside you. Kali, K A L I, which I believe is a Hindu goddess? Yeah. Am I right? It's a Hindu? Yeah. Um Um Um Okay, but I love Please please describe it. Yeah. Yeah, so this is um letting the truth speak for itself. And so And so And so um um um there's lots of reasons in society to like be polite and say the nice thing and uh and uh and uh or or to um be sort of a bit kind of manipulative and to try and um like dominate people and control people and get them to do what you want.

And this is sort of uh letting go both of those and just letting the truth truth sort of speak for itself and come out in a very direct way. And when you do that, it tends to be very potent. The one of the reasons I've specifically included the the Kali element is because um um um yeah, there's something um it's even it's interesting actually, there's even something a bit gendered here maybe where it's like uh there's a lot of pressure to not speak the truth in our society and maybe in all societies.

societies. societies. And there has to be a kind of like fierceness and a fierce sort of commitment and Kali as a goddess, she you know, she has a sword she'll uh cut off people's heads in in the the mythology. Uh it's just like really letting the the the sort of truth just like say the thing that is true regardless. regardless. regardless. And um And um And um yeah, I think that the the gendered piece is maybe specifically she's a female feminine goddess and um I think both think both think both for men and women it's it's sort of like letting it's not necessarily the truth I'm talking about is not necessarily like a rational uh logical or this is the objective ultimate truth.

It's like as much the kind of like felt embodied elements of experience truth and kind of like letting your truth be be present and part of what's here. Um Um Um and and and yeah, that can be quite disruptive and I think there's something important about um uh yeah, about the archetype where it's saying like it's it it's powerful to to to disrupt and say the difficult thing and let the truth be spoken. So that was the the sort of importance of it including the Kali element.

I would imagine you would recommend that we say the truth without being jerks about it. Yeah, yeah, I think that there's um so it's like the wholehearted truth. Yeah, so people will have a tendency which is which is which is um they might be so they might be wanting to kind of like dominate and say things that are trying to trying to trying to impress or trying to like put other people down or I guess that's kind of what I'm imagining when you say being a jerk.

jerk. jerk. But then the truth the truth would actually be uh uh if someone sort of like dominating to put other people down in order to like feel good about themselves. The truth would be someone saying, well, right now I want to like say something that puts you down so it makes me feel good about myself. It's it it's sort of a a a a step back where you're in starting in the presence and starting in the kind of like truth of the what's in the present moment for you.

Um and then there's another thing which is the other way that people can go is being polite and hiding and not saying what is true and being a sort of people pleaser. pleaser. pleaser. And then they need to sort of be pulled in a bit more into saying the hard thing and then and then and then the they might get the feedback from people that they're being a bit of a jerk by saying the hard hard thing. And sometimes you just have to I think you have to sort of cut through people's um people's um people's um desires for you to be so sweet and nice in some ways.

Uh no question. No question and I this may be gendered in that um um um historically for me it's not like I've really held back from saying the hard thing. thing. thing. But I've been rude about it which has not helped anybody. Um Um Um and I realize that that may not be true for for women listening. Um instead they might have gone the the self-silencing route. Um So I I hear your advice as you know, sensitive to sensitive to sensitive to to everybody. Yes. Wherever your conditioning is.

Yeah, it's really it's like using the heart as the the compass of what is yeah. First connecting to what is wholeheartedly true wholeheartedly true wholeheartedly true and then being being able to speak that. And I think there's something as well which is you know, I think I mentioned this in the in the um the secret sadness. It feels like that in terms of gender it's like um men especially are not given space to feel sadness and that's Mhm. uh and it feels like that's really important that men are given space to cry and feel sad and then this has it almost a bit the opposite where it's like women are often not given space to speak difficult truths and that's really important that that's that's given space.

Yeah, not only not given the space to speak difficult truths but punished for speaking difficult truths. truths. truths. Yeah. Um Yeah. Um Yeah. Um I think also in this part of the book you you talk about saying no more often. Mhm. Yeah, there's society asks a lot of people and I guess there's like a clarity that can come online where um being well bounded and saying no in a modern busy life it there's a sort of it's almost like if you're not if you're not super busy all the time overextended doing a million things then you're not like a like a like a you're not enough or something.

There's like a societal message in there. And actually just being like no, I don't want to do that and that's no for me. That I think that to me is good potency in Kali energy of just clarity of what is truly aligned for you and what actually really actually really actually really yeah, really serves sort of the truth of yourself and experience from a deep level. And again, the key here is that whether you're speaking up, you know, speaking the truth in the moment moment moment or saying no it's about what's happening for you right now.

This is this becomes spiritual or mystical only when it's directly connected to what you're feeling right now. right now. right now. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm I have a friend who's an authentic relating teacher uh uh uh Margot Margot Margot Fisher and she um describes boundaries as it's like letting the energy speak for itself, letting the what's already here let it fall where it falls and that also has a very strong sort of Kali element where it's like the sort of truth falls where it falls and you're not it's almost like anti-manipulation is the is the um the kind of metric.

We're almost out of time but in closing here just two final questions for you. One is, you know yeah, anything you want to say in summary? summary? summary? Yeah, I think it can be a lot of information information information and it can feel like a lot to take in maybe and um I think one of the things I describe in the book is like giving yourself time for each of the chapters to show up in your life as something that um yeah, just like having some time so you know, secret sadness having some time to sink into that as a a a yeah, beautiful tender part of experience and um the focus is really on the embodied and sort of wholehearted aspect of experience rather than the understanding.

understanding. understanding. It's not about like having a needing to get some cognitive understanding. It's about going through a process in your body and in in your heart and feeling things and so yeah, giving yourself sort of time to to feel and be with each aspect of experience experience experience is is important. Final question is can you just remind everybody of the name of this book and then anything else you're putting out into the world that we should know about? Yeah, so this book is unlocking the depths of being wholehearted presence for mystical reality and it's uh it's also it's free so my website um and then yeah, I'm writing two books currently.

Um They were going to be one. Apparently. Apparently. Apparently. They were going to be one and then it became two. Um which is a surprisingly less overwhelming than writing one big one but um but um but um yeah, one's about the living imaginal realm. So I guess the these two books are sort of uh it's almost like the the unlocking the depths of being is the groundwork of um um um yeah, really sort of getting your your being kind of like getting into your being so that you can be more present and uh yeah, sort of like safely and wholeheartedly present in experience.

And then it's like from there there's a possibility that it can open more into more sort of mystical territory. So one of the books I'm writing is called the living imaginal realm which is like how experience is more imaginal and shamanic than than than um modern society would like us to believe. But yeah, I would say like this book is really um it's really kind of like the the groundwork for if if that is of interest um um um and and also like if if there's any sort of mystical explorations or spiritual explorations with psychedelics or with any kind of interest in altered states of consciousness or anything like that, it's like this this book is written to make that yeah, safe wholehearted coming from presence being connected to the body um so yeah.

And you said it's available via your website? Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. What's the website? roselimus.co.uk Great. I will put a link to that in the show notes show notes show notes so people can get more from Rose if they want it. Um in the meantime, Rose, thank you so much for making time for this. It's great to talk to you. Yeah, it was really really really nice to talk. Thanks.