Senators John Fetterman and Dave McCormick: Bipartisanship, Money in DC, Datacenters, Graham Platner

Key Takeaway

Stop letting perfect be the enemy of progress. When faced with transformative opportunities like AI or energy innovation, focus on building practical community covenants instead of getting paralyzed by fear. Just as Pennsylvania overcame misinformation about fracking through education and demonstrable benefits, we can embrace AI by clearly outlining what data centers will contribute to communities: tax revenue, infrastructure investment, and economic opportunity. The key is moving past partisan rage-bait to have honest conversations about real trade-offs.

Episode Overview

Pennsylvania Senators John Fetterman (D) and Dave McCormick (R) discuss their bipartisan approach to governing in America's most politically divided swing state. They explore working-class coalition building, the dangers of partisan extremism, energy policy, AI development, and why Pennsylvania's political model of finding common ground could serve as a blueprint for the rest of the country.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Senators John Fetterman and Dave McCormick: Bipartisanship, Money in DC, Datacenters, Graham Platner from All-In Podcast. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Now a look at the state of Pennsylvania. It's one of the most important states in this presidential race. Both of Pennsylvania's senators, Democrat John Fetterman and Republican Dave McCormick, voted in favor of the bill. In this situation, we both agree that shutting our government down is wrong for our Commonwealth and for our nation. nation. nation. So, we're looking for ways to find common ground. And when we disagree, we disagree. But, when we can agree, we agree. Our votes are about country over party at this point.

Well, we're trying to set a good example because we have lots of disagreements, but we trust each other, we like one another, and we look for ways to work together. I thought the best way to kick this off was to actually give both of you a few moments to just say what's on your mind. And so, I think in the rules of parliamentary decorum, Senator Fetterman, as the senior sitting senator from Pennsylvania, maybe you can start. Um I'm proud that to call Senator McCormick a a good friend.

Uh and now things are very more polarized. And now I refuse to uh uh uh engage in the kinds of extremism. And you know, we're going to fight together for Pennsylvania and for our nation right now. And we're going to continue to have conversations like this, you know, whether in Pennsylvania or here across. So, across. So, across. So, um um um so, we so, we so, we we have to find a better way forward through a lot of the circumstances. Yeah. Yeah. Dave. Dave. Dave. Yeah, I think um I mean, one of the the the benefits of being in a place like Pennsylvania is that uh the the voters expect us really to find ways to work together.

And if you put this moment in perspective, perspective, perspective, I think it's probably the most consequential moment in all of our lifetimes. lifetimes. lifetimes. A- and in fact, I think it might be the most consequential moment in humankind, which is which is is statement. So much change is happening. It's artificial intelligence, of course, but it's it's really how that's affecting everything. Life sciences, defense, energy. It's it's a moment of enormous change. And that that change creates a lot of anxiety that lends itself to polarization and extremes.

And so, if there was ever a time where it's more important to find ways to work together, it it's now. And so, we've found ways to work together on everything from everything from everything from energy policy to fentanyl the fentanyl crisis to anti-Semitism in Pennsylvania and across the country to drone technology. And and these are issues that are of such consequence that you can't get there by just being with your team. You have to be able to find common ground. And we've we've really looked for ways to do that.

Yeah, I I think he could confirm. Pennsylvania keeps you honest. Now, and now, I'd like to remind everybody that we are the only two people in our respective cycles that flipped seats. flipped seats. flipped seats. You know, that's really you know, both parties want that. They we we want to flip seats. It's like, well, you know, we we've done that because I think we've rejected the extreme kinds of views and now it's better to work together for for Pennsylvania or for our country for right now.

And AI is really really important. And well, sometimes will put me at odds where the direction that the Democratic Party seems to be moving in that now. So, now, moratorium for data centers. For me, that's a China-first kinds of policy. For that, I'm going to continue to push back that. I'm not going to describe that as a scourge. I'm going to describe that as an incredible new opportunity. And now, you know, my friend, he he organized an incredible symposium in Western Pennsylvania that brought AI together and energy.

And that's two parts of things Pennsylvania really brings to the table in this very, very important conversation. I think that we're at this point now where where where is it fair to say as goes Pennsylvania, as goes the rest of the country in the sense that if if you can find common ground in the state on these very thorny issues, maybe the rest of the country can find ground and the vice versa is also true. If you guys can't find resolution, what are the odds that California and West Virginia making it up find resolution?

So, what is it like a day in the life in the US Senate trying to find these compromises cuz from our perspective outside in a lot of the time it just seems like nothing is happening. Dave. Dave. Yeah, I think if you step back you would we I know we look very similar, but we we have we have many similar backgrounds. We do? We do? We do? We have We have We have What's the difference? We have similar backgrounds in the sense we both grew up in rural Pennsylvania.

And had similar, you know, similar childhoods and John went into public service. I service. I service. I I left went to West Point, went to the military, but we both came back from those those rural backgrounds. But what's interesting in Pennsylvania is 19 electoral votes electoral votes electoral votes and the it's a microcosm of the country. You have these two big urban centers, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, which are mostly Democrats. You have these these rural areas that are mostly red, mostly Republican. And you got to build a coalition across those to win.

So, ironically, a lot of the same people that voted for Senator Fetterman voted for me and and and voted for President Trump. And and that's the coalition you have to build. And the in particular it is a working families coalition. So, the thing that's ironic is that even though all the all the national unions would have vote would have endorsed Kamala Harris and Bob Casey, my opponent. The rank and file, two-thirds of the rank and file, the electricians, the pipefitters, the steamfitters voted for me. Same with him.

They voted for him. So, it we actually, even though we have a lot of differences in our parties, we have come together around that coalition. And that coalition includes a very significant Latino turnout, a very significant African-American turnout, the highest African-American turnout in 2024 in the last 30 years. And so, that coalition, I think, is up for grabs. Who wins that coalition in Pennsylvania and who wins it in the country, I think, will dictate the future to a large degree in 2028 and beyond. And so, that's what we're working on together cuz we're trying to build that coalition to do good things together in Pennsylvania.

The Senate The Senate The Senate is at an all-time low in terms of approval rating. We have the lowest approval rating of a president in history after Biden, who was extremely low-rated. You guys can't control the debt. debt. debt. The American populace believe we'd be in a golden age right now. They're not seeing it. Inflation is soaring. The president seems to be running amok, has no check in the house, and you guys are responsible responsible responsible us what you really think, John. Other than miss other than that, Mrs.

Lincoln. Lincoln. Lincoln. Well, and $40 trillion in debt and you're spending more than ever. So, the American people, I think, are extremely frustrated with both parties. It's great to see you guys come together. Um but what are you going to do to bring back some balance between the branches of the government cuz this does not seem to be going in the right direction for anybody but the people in this room, which is to say the top 10% of our society. Well, I I mean, for me, if you you referenced inflation is soaring.

Well, just just recently, that's pri- primarily driven by energy prices right now. Now, why are those energy prices high? Well, because the president decided to hold Iran accountable. And now, now, now, I'm the only Democrat that actually agrees with that. That was not That was not a radical idea for a Democrats. Every single person running for president as a Democrat said, "We must never allow Iran to acquire a nuclear bomb." And now we have the opportunity to hold them accountable. Why? That's why I continue to vote and against these War Powers Act now, too.

So, for inflation, yes, now absolutely no one thinks $5 a gallon is is great, but if you allow Iran to become nuclear, you know, that's going to seem quaint, you know, if $5 a gallon holding that up, too. So, what's driving this economic conversation overall right now? So, for me, I think what's most important uh turn everything as a part partisan thing. And that's the danger where if we despise despise despise Trump more than we are concerned about Iran becoming a nuclear power, that will have profound implications for not just in that region, but also for a global stage for right now.

That's the difficulty difficulty difficulty moving forward now. Uh I've said this in the podcast uh you know, for all in, I you know, who's the leaders party? I'm like, that's TDS 100%. You know, our party is defined by the opposition of whatever he comes out for. I've said he Trump comes out for ice cream and lazy Sundays, we're we we're going to hate that [ __ ] You know, and we're going to vote it down. Now, we all have We all have a bandwidth and we all have a platform.

You You I feel like you have to discriminate. I don't care about the ballroom. If you want to build it, sure, great. I was there for the the White House correspondent dinner and I saw how dangerous that was for for our leadership, but I don't care about the reflecting pool. But now we can't stop talking about all this other kind of [ __ ] So we can really focus on thing that's more important when now it's become all just distract distracted by the small small ball game. ball game.

ball game. Dave, is there a path to resolution? I mean, like you're you guys are going to be forced to confront the filibuster, which is this critical bullwark that sort of leaves some sort of attempt at finding common ground out there, but there's a lot of pressure to end it. I think Senator Fetterman, you said you'd be supportive of ending the filibuster. Is that where we're going to just total tribalism? Yeah, let's talk about the filibuster. Let's talk about that. The entire Democratic Party, including myself, we were so wrong about the filibuster.

In my cycle in 2020, every single Democrat identified we have to we have to eliminate the filibuster. Seems like it made sense now, and thank God thank God we had people that stood uh there whether it's Senator Manchin or Senator uh Sinema, you know, history has vindicated their wisdom to do that thing. And now Democrats, we all wanted to get rid of it in '22 and 2025 we love it. And now it it now it enforces people to work together with both sides. Now, if you turn the Senate into a smaller version of the house and majority majority Right.

Now that would have profound profound implications for now. So now someone that'd be the first person to announce, "Hey, I was so wrong about that." Uh that's one of the kinds of hill I would die on now to defend the filibuster, how important it is to the Senate, but also Senate for the mi- minority rights, whoever that happens to be in that time. You know, that's what's so critical what the filibuster is to governance here. governance here. governance here. I I would say um first of all uh Congress, but lots of institutions right now have very low public approval, very low trust.

That That's a huge problem. It's across It's across all areas. It's to church uh uh public officials, business uh in many cases. So, we've got to rebuild trust in our institutions. And one of the ways you do that is through your own personal conduct. So, one of the things we can do is try to set the example. Uh if you look at my voting and his voting, I I am I'm a unapologetic conservative. I vote as a conservative. At the same time, that doesn't mean you can't work together.

So, we look for every opportunity for bipartisan legislation. So, I've got more bipartisan legislation than anybody. We've collaborated on dozens of things together because you can do both. And the filibuster, I mean, it is frustrating as a business person. I was in business for 25 years. So frustrating the way the pace of of how slowly things move. But I do think it creates the requirement, the impetus to get things done. And I would disagree with you. I think a lot of big things have been done.

I look at If you look at the energy agenda, we can't win the AI race without energy. And uh we made huge progress on energy. I'm hoping we're going to get permanent reform, which would be the biggest economic lever we could possibly get done over the next 6 months or the next 2 and 1/2 years. Um we've closed the border. We've stopped the flow of fentanyl. We had 4,000 people who died in Pennsylvania in the last year of the Biden administration at 1,600. This year it's down 60%.

Those same statistics nationally. And then there's huge intractable problems like the debt and the deficit, which are existential, that we're not dealing with. And that's not a product so much of the filibuster or not the filibuster. That's a product of the polarization of our country. And both sides taking advantage of anybody willing to to to look at a problem in a in a hard way. my question was though about the bottom half of the company country in the K-shaped economy we're in and how it's not working and you guys are phenomenally unpopular with that group of Americans.

So is there a way to talk about wealth concentration? Yeah, wealth concentration. The bottom half is not happy with No, no, it's on both sides. No, it's a huge problem and No, it's a huge problem and I don't I don't think I listened carefully last night. I mean I I just want to tell you that is a huge huge problem that's growing. That median income in Pennsylvania is $52,000 a year. When you guys say AI or AI anxiety, I mean these these folks, they've been down this road once before when a bunch of smart rich people said we got the answer, it's called globalization.

And what happened in my hometown is there was a mill of 2,000 people that got gutted. It's now 100 people. So there's enormous anxiety, but it's because there's no path to getting ahead. And everybody in this room, room, room, the last 10 years has been the greatest 10 years in the history of humanity for those who have assets. So do you have a plan? Yeah, well there's there's got to be a plan. plan. plan. it? it? it? There's got to be a number of plans. Well, do you have a plan?

Because it's not just going to be me, it's going to be us. Because right now, I'm listen, I'm a I am a beneficiary of of capitalism. I have been wildly fortunate because of capitalism. But we are we are going to lose capitalism unless we find a combination of a ways to address it. So what are the ways? The Invest America accounts is a perfect way, right? Where you are building opportunity for the next generation. The the school choice provision in the Working Families Tax Cut Act, $1,700 everybody in this room can give $1,700 every year.

Billions of dollars that are going to go into school choice for for making sure everybody has equal equality of opportunity. If you don't do that at maximum scale maximum scale maximum scale and this moment leaves the majority of Americans behind, we're not going to be able to get anything done. Spend more money on programs. Yeah, spend more money, but not not spend more money in spend more money in giving people opportunity. So the reason those two accounts are great, it takes it out of the government, circumvents the government, it's based on incentives and a choice by people that have wealth.

Um it's uh it's sort of Andrew Carnegie uh brought to present day. Take that wealth, put it in the hands of those who will benefit from it, but it's your choice. It's not dictated dictated by the government. I think that's going to have to be part of the answer. Does anyone in Congress subscribe to the notion notion notion that I think is rooted in uh you know, uh empiricism that the more we spend, the harder it is for people to have economic mobility? You know, and I think that there's a a simplified notion that government has to play a role in driving people's progress.

And the truth is, the more government intervenes in markets, the more inefficient and the more expensive those markets get, and therefore the more inaccessible wealth and value creation is for any individual. And the freer the market, the less the government intervenes, the less the government is spending, the less the government is buying, the better things get for people generally speaking. generally speaking. generally speaking. Does is And it seems to me every time I visit DC, I leave profoundly unhappy because I meet with people in Congress, and this is a notion that seems to be diametrically opposed to their viewpoints that everything is about doing more for people.

Government needs to do more on both sides of the aisle. Versus if the government did less, things would get more affordable, things would get more accessible, and people would have greater economic mobility. Well, I mean, you know, talk about the the the the government. Now, we had not just one, we had two shutdowns. Both were historic in terms of their length. Now, we couldn't just agree on very basic things. And now we've shut the government down collectively for over 120 days or whatever now. So, then that's one of the thing as a Democrat I refuse to engage in that thing.

If that's a core responsibility as a senator, keep our government open and for the love of God, find a way to agree enough to keep things open and put things in risk and make our country less less safe. You know, I'm proud to be a capitalist. And our capitalism is the the one system that has proven to raise life's standard of humans across the globe. You know, that. And now people in my party and now now we're having bad ideas refuse to die. And now we're talking about socialism and and communist right now.

We have We have candidates now that I'm I am a communist these things. And that's like, "Hmm, that seems interesting." You know, what's your point now? Talk to anyone that's had to live under those kinds of regime. Now, they're all absolute capitalist right now. And that's that's absolutely the fact. That the market will has fixed a lot of these kinds of problems. You know, and I'm not terrified by AI. Am I concerned about it? Uh 100% right right now and with now my foes and now the concerns about mass hacking and uh weaponizing it that way.

You know, that's coming. And now I think that should belong to America. You know, that you know, we America should build that chassis. And now that's why if we turn my party into where AI is the scourge or the cancer, now I refuse to reject that because it's going to transform the world. Now, it can come from us or it can come from China. Whose side are you're going to be in? And a lot of the people that oppose that, now a lot of that opposition is funded by a lot of these groups that are aligned with CCP.

So, that's part of the danger right now tell. So, that's a dangerous time right now and like Democrats now my party oh the problems are billionaires. Oh, but we love the billionaires that fund you know our kinds of views and our views and that too. too. too. Uh now target people, you know, people you know, call out Bezos or whatever. It's like you don't don't do that. Don't call out private citizens identify them the problem. You know, they are create jobs. If you've never created a job, don't criticize people that that have really changed our our economy for the better I I honestly.

Why is Graham Platon are doing so well in the polls? This is a candidate that has a literal Nazi tattoo on his chest. Yeah yeah, I know. is what is history tells us comes next if he wins? If a candidate like that can win, what does that tell us? Yeah, well when I when I was a kid, if someone had a Nazi tattoo, you probably could call them a Nazi sympathizer, you know, and someone now and now it just yesterday we discovered that he was sexting with up to a dozen women and now Democrats now some of them are saying, well, what's the big problem?

You know, that's you know, they're constantly just ignoring a lot of these things um and now this is a guy that just a couple years ago couple years a couple years ago described described described uh an American soldier in a firefight with the Taliban uh uh uh dumb mother that doesn't deserve to live. That's his words. Who does that? Who lurks on there and you know, he's really a tough guy behind a keyboard and I can't ex- you know, explain other than that it's a backlash to to how partisan things are.

Someone like that should have been have been have been uh in this race right now so here we are, you know, a guy that was text sexting to up to a dozen women. You know, he's getting a swawol on. And uh when I were kind of just what's the big deal? Uh why not confront that and just then call that out? And that's that's the danger if now if now if now um um um these kinds of views could you imagine if could you imagine if either one of us described an American soldier as a dumb that deserves to lie or he described the our army as as absolute trash absolute trash.

He described them American army as absolute trash. Um and and that's a viable candidate now and that's that's a bizarre place to live right now as a Democrat. You know I'm If he wins what happens to this what what does that tell us about where we're headed? headed? headed? Well, look at what I mean what's happening there is I mean there's there's problems on both parties but certainly what you've seen on the left is two things. I think it's indisputable. One is a a migration to these terrible ideas of socialism and Marxism and so forth.

But in addition to that this really rise of anti-Semitism and hatred and that and that the tell here of how pervasive it is is is is the people who are now campaigning in Maine Chuck Schumer. Uh Elizabeth These are mainstream Democrats that have now lurched so far to the left and I think I think this is going to be if if those candidates win and that becomes validation of the viability of that stream of thinking in the Democratic Party I think it's horribly unhealthy for America.

Ironically the best thing we want if we're Republicans is a strong Democratic Party that keeps us honest and keeps us in check with good ideas and and that's not happening and as I said we have problems on both sides but I think that lurch to the left is really frightening a frightening thing. Well, and then let's say and you just you know brought up Israel. You know, that's a profound betrayal for my party on on Israel or not too. You know, the people that are winning a lot of these elections, you know, you know, one of their signature view is anti-anti-Israel and borderline just, you know, raw anti-Semitism in from a lot of these candidates now too.

And that's that's exactly where where we are. Um and now that has isolated me in the party and just calling that what that is. I mean that that's that's dangerous and now that that's where one of the things that we happen to agree on. That's the right side [snorts] of history for me and that's a that's a that's a I mean maybe one of the best things that can happen is Shapiro continues to do well in Pennsylvania. Irrespective of which party you align with, a prominent Jew Jew Jew winning in Pennsylvania, running that state well is a very good sign actually for the rest of the country that there is common ground in that anti-Semitism is much more in check than the perception.

perception. perception. We had also on I think Josh is fantastic. Yeah, and he you know, has a lot of disagreements about us maybe uh going into this war and, you know, maybe maybe maybe being egged into doing it. Uh and and by the way, Fetterman, if you're look or Freeberg, if you're looking for the source of why people feel comfortable saying these terrible things, you can look no further than Trump and what he said about McCain being a war hero. That started this actually, this rhetoric.

And now everybody wants to one-up it. He said he's not a war hero and he got captured. That's where this started. Sachs Oh, please. You're trying to blame Trump for the fact that a Democratic candidate in Maine has a swastika tattoo on his face? face? face? No, the rhetoric Okay. Okay. All right. We're in tedious land. land. land. And he needs to We're in tedious land, but fortunately we're not interviewing you, Jay Cal. Let me ask Senator Fetterman a question. So, I appreciate your common sense views on AI, on capitalism, on all the things we're talking about.

And I think that the the the people in Pennsylvania appreciate it. I think you're very popular there. But I'm curious, do you ever get worried that you might get primary in the Democratic Party when when you come up? Because I mean the Bernie Sanders wing is powerful. They have a lot of activists. They're very noisy. I mean, do you ever I mean, I appreciate your maverick streak and your independence, but do you How do you think about that risk? Well, Well, Well, a seat or a job is is not I'm always going to be I'm going to be honest, and I'm always going to have you know, my votes or my opinions are going to be what I happen to believe is is true.

You know, it's not a seat worth trying to maintain if I'm going to lie or to pretend that things aren't absolutely true. Yeah, absolutely. I can be be primary, and there are some Democrats that are they're angry at me. If they're angry at me for supporting Israel, yeah, they have at it. If they're angry at me that I think it's wrong to shut down the government, that's fine. Uh if if they're angry at me because I I refuse to call him a Nazi or a fascist or a piece of [ __ ] I'll never do that.

You can hold me on that, too. But what's really strange in that the truth is somebody that votes like a 93% of Democratic line. And if I change my party, there was a lot of palace intrigue that I'm going to change the party, and then I'm never going to do that. And if I did, I could change you know, I could announce right now, I am changing it right now. My votes aren't going to change. My views everything. Uh I wouldn't vote any differently. Things I happen to believe.

And and if if Democrats run me out of the party, they will be attacking a committed Democrat that votes your line 93% of the time because we're in a New York time right now that I think things are more important than trying to I I know what pays the bills as a Democrat now. Literally. Literally. Literally. Campaigns are based on Trump. Literally in their campaign commercials. Yes. And in their emails and outrage. You know, it's constant rage bait. I I refuse to engage in that and I'm going to be the an example of what I think's entirely appropriate and and a lot of the conversations are driven by people that represent very, you know, safe blue state seats.

Now, like that's why Pennsylvania keeps people honest here and people are going to remember in 2028, oh yeah. Oh, I want to be bipartisan. I want to get along. You know, like people don't believe you. You know, like they remember what what they've said and how people behave. So, that's where I'm at. So, yeah, I could be primary, but what's more important to be the truthful what I think's are important values and remind people that the things we used to believe in, you know, I know, I know, I I think I think I think Senator, I want to just move to just domestic policy and economics for a second.

If you you meant you said this incredible story incredible story incredible story in the green room which maybe you can start off with which is the quantum of people that reach out to you every week to mostly complain about various companies. But just use that as an insight maybe to talk about AI because that's a huge part of your state. It's also a huge part of the American economy. American economy. American economy. And maybe compare it to what happened with shale and oil cuz there's a lot of commonalities.

I think it's quite interesting. interesting. interesting. Yeah, it's uh I don't know if he gets the same amount, but on an average week, we have 14 million people in Pennsylvania almost. On an average week, I'll get something like 100,000 outreaches to me. Uh letters, emails, phone calls, and across different issues. And you can almost see when the activist are mobilizing groups to come and and make the case on certain things. And I do a call every 2 weeks that's a sort of an open mic where you get about 10,000 people to show up.

And the the number of data center calls, data centers have become uh a much big bigger and pervasive thing. And just to put this in perspective, David David was there. Uh Dean and I hosted an energy and innovation summit in Pennsylvania last July. We had $92 billion of investment committed. We had the energy CEOs, the AI CEOs, big investors, global investors. We had uh Senator Fetterman came, Governor Shapiro came, the president came, the cabinet came. It was amazing. And that's By By the way, that's what you need.

Winning is a team sport, and winning in AI is a team sport, and you need all those players at the table. Um and so it was it was a real success. And since then, there's been enormous investments made in Pennsylvania. I visited uh one just the other week, Homer City, 4.4 gigawatts of power from a coal plant that's being transitioned over to uh natural gas. 3.4 gigs is going to go into a a data center complex. Uh a gigawatt's going back on the grid to hopefully bring down energy prices.

So, this is this is happening across Pennsylvania, but the opposition is growing, and it's clear organic part to this? Like is cuz it's very hard to understand what's happening when you have these kind of dark forces, dark pools of money? I can't I can't I can't is there a legitimate like I don't want to have this in my backyard for X, Y, and Z? and Z? and Z? enormous misinformation, enormous misinformation, enormous misinformation, and I think that misinformation is largely being driven by China and outside forces.

And then there's just legitimate not on not understanding, not knowing. knowing. knowing. Okay. Okay. Okay. And we need to do a much better job of making sure that the outlines of what these data centers mean to communities is clear. And and and frankly, there needs to be a much clearer covenant of what it means. If you're going to have a data center in your community, you're a township supervisor, here's what you know. Um you're going to they're going to bring more energy they're going to use.

They're going to protect their water with closed loop. Um they're going to give this much to the tax base. They're going to build schools or infrastructure, whatever they're going to build. to build. to build. Isn't that first part the only thing that matters in people's minds? I just don't want my energy to bill go up. No. Um because as soon as you get through that, they move to the next thing, which is water. And then the the schools are going to be crowded and there's like So the schools are going to be crowded be crowded be crowded don't because there'll be new jobs.

No, because we knew people and they're not they're not making the connection to the tax base, the roads are going to be crowded. So there's a whole comprehensive case that needs to be made. And uh what uh Jamath was making the point, we went through this before. John and I both lived through this with fracking. Huge campaign against, huge misinformation, lack of understanding, and 15 years later, I'd say there's pretty broad-based support for fracking. Yeah, well no, yeah, there's unlimited money. I mean, you know, they they someone finds some B-roll kind of a comment and they put $10 million behind it and they can they can turn you into the most extreme kinds of things.

It's ironically, you know, originally people try to try to try to convince people that I'm a socialist and now people are like now I'm mega or whatever. I'm like, "No, I'm just I haven't changed. My views are my views are are are the the same." And you know, I would tell people energy is national security. Look at what's happening in you know, in in Europe and other parts. Now, if the you don't have energy security, then your your national security is in danger. Now, AI is coming and and what what he's done, he created this amazing symposium to remind people that you know, we need both.

We need energy and Pennsylvania produces a lot of that. of that. of that. And now And now And now also AI is coming otherwise we'd still be using the spinny Jenny or whatever that's called. Now, so why do we talk about data centers? Because people forces are describing them as a scourge or a cancer that's going to bankrupt you or destroy your community. Now, why do we have that right now? Because this is something that's going to transform our society. society. society. The you know, absolutely there could be a downside, but overall it's going to be much more productive and that's going to create new opportunities.

Now, I refuse to become a party of of Luddites. And now that's you know, like honest. If I had to vote now claim that that's all cancer, it's danger and it's all downside, then I'd be lying and that's why I'm saying Republican or Democrat, you know, that's a fact. These things are very very important and that's why I'm going to just Can I just double click on this thing when you compare it to shale? So in shale, I'm going to assume that when shale was shale was shale was escalating in importance the pushback were from corporate interests interests interests that would have economically lost out.

That's what I'm guessing. The majority. Environmentalists. Environmentalists. Environmentalists. Yeah, environmental. Yeah, environmental. Yeah, environmental. But it seems like in AI we're dealing with foreign state actors. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is that fair? Is that Is that Is it as reductively simple as that? Well, if you see go to those two parts, one was the the campaign of misinformation and the other is a lack of understanding. There's much more of a campaign of misinformation from outside forces this time around. Uh but but what happened in in the you know, in the in the case of shale, methane destroys the water table.

You know, don't want these in our backyards. What happened of course was these enormous royalties for the farmers. the farmers. the farmers. We're the fourth largest natural gas reserves in the world. If we were a country, Pennsylvania would be number four. This is the economic engine for our state. Our state is the second largest energy producer in the country. So this unlocks everything for Pennsylvania. And as those jobs started be created, so you saw the economic benefit, the misinformation about the methane in the water table became clear.

Slowly and much too long, 15 years later, we're now in a place where I bet 80% of the people would have supported fracking. fracking. fracking. Last night event, you know, you described that we have 6 to 8 months ahead of China, right? Is that right? Yeah. Okay, so now, you know, you know, you know, my party is driving for a moratorium for data centers. Like, I mean Do you think China doesn't love that? You know, like and that's why they're they're they're parts behind some of the driving this this view.

You want to give that race to China. It's coming It's coming. It's the choice. Do you want America to to to build that chassis or do you want the Chinese to do that? You know, like yeah, you know, data centers can make some things with some uh some challenges. of that, John, is what you said earlier, which is it starts with TDS and then it goes with give China AI. Is that I want to say this, vote me out if you think it's okay to give China a benefit to win the AI race.

Vote me out, you know, and you know, but It's like so Your favorite person in the audience, my wife, is clapping for you. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, exactly. That's exactly the way I see it. I mean, that's exactly the way I see it as well. So um we have great bipartisan agreement here. So Dave, I was at your summit last year, the energy innovation summit where you announced $90 million dollars of new investments. The thing I was struck by was how broad-based the representation was at that summit.

You not only had software companies, you had hardware companies, you had manufacturing, you had robotics, you had energy, nuclear, fracking. And then most interestingly is that you had the trades there. And that's when a lightbulb went on for me that oh, this is a blue-collar boom because this is a construction boom and blue-collar workers are really going to benefit and the trades represented there spoke to that. And since then we've had hundreds of of thousands of new jobs, construction jobs created and 25 to 30% wage increases for construction workers.

And so I'm curious, does that help make the cause more popular in Pennsylvania? Are those trades, are the unions still on board with this or have the politics of that changed at all over the past year? year? year? Um it's a great question and it's it's been extraordinary. So just in the last 15, 16 months and this these are related by the way. It's not just energy projects and data centers. It's US Steel and a new next generation mill. It's Eli Lilly building a new plant.

It's Hanwha in the Philadelphia shipyard. But they're coming in part because of the data centers and the energy projects. And and so I've spent a lot of time with the trades lately. The most secure job in Pennsylvania right now is a secure welder. I mean is a seasoned welder and electrician. electrician. electrician. And electrician. These These honestly These These folks are coming out, they're getting the training, they're in their late teens, early 20s. They're making more than a hundred grand a year in these sites and they can't they can't build they can't hire quick enough.

They can't find enough people to meet the demand. the demand. the demand. And you know, these the data centers I mean I've looked closely at that. There's one, you know, coming in Berwick, Pennsylvania right next to where my where I went to high school. You know, You know, You know, the way to think about it is there's sort of four buckets of economic activity that comes, jobs that come. There's of course the deals that come with them, but there's the thousands of jobs to build the data centers and the energy that goes side by side.

So, these are 5, 10,000 folks on the site. Then there's the hundreds of people to run the data centers. Then of course every 3 to 4 years the the hardware and everything in the data centers gets upgraded which brings in hundreds, sometimes thousands of jobs. There's the energy that's going side by side. Then there's the restaurants, the hotels. I met with a the trucking association the other day. They they guess that it's about two logistics jobs for every one job in a data center. These things are economic engines.

So, once you get that covenant straight, people are willing to make the decision. And if there if a township supervisor or county commissioner, no senator is going to tell them to do this. This has to come from the ground up in terms of making a decision, but once they decide to do that, it's a huge engine for their communities. If they decide not to do it, my point is, okay, where's where's your plan? What is the plan? In Pennsylvania, we've been losing people for 20 years.

We can't get our kids to stay. This is like a rebirth. It's amazing what's happening, but we got to break through the misinformation and and and Freeberg, do you have a final question? If not, um Well, I mean, I think on this point why do you think it's so difficult for the Democrats to embrace the facts on the ground? Because you have an empirical story to share about job creation, value creation, and there's no empiricism on the other side that there's job displacement or job loss in the white-collar jobs, which is generally part of the zone.

things. I would say the notion of AI broadly broadly broadly is getting merged with the notion of data centers in a narrow thing. Data centers of course are an enormous component of this, but those two those two things are unrelated. Second, I I I don't think it's just Democrats. Like I mean we have No, the America First movement is now in this horseshoe exactly aligned with the Democrats Democrats Democrats We have we have the the the far left and the far right Yes. Yes. Yes. converging on an anti-data center even have some besties who occasionally buy into the jobs apocalypse.

So No, no, I'm I'm I'm I'm job displacement. displacement. displacement. Never misrepresent me, Sax. I will call you out every time. I just believe there'll be job displacement. You could also use the word job mobility. mobility. mobility. What what I what I I'll let finish my sentence, please. I'm speaking. Job displacement is occurring and that new jobs need to be created to fill that in. And I think that's the blind spot of the people who have Trump dedication syndrome is that they will never actually do anything that would modestly criticize the president.

And that's part of the challenge. I want to have a last Well, I just I just want to just about the amount of money being donated donated donated by special interest. Do we need to get money out of politics? Because that seems to be the root of a lot of these problems is that, you know, billionaires can give 50 million 50 million, 100 million, 200 million, whether it's Soros or friends of ours. It feels like there's way too much money in politics. Does that have to change for this type of issue uh you know, around data centers etc.

and special interest? And and how do we can we ever get there? Yeah, well, I I would I would say of the five things I would do to fix America right now, that wouldn't be in the top five. But yes, conceptually I like to get money out of politics. There was my race was [clears throat] $500 million. We raised $200 million We raised $200 million on my side, $300 million on the on the the opposition side. We we couldn't keep up. I was I was record before in '22.

We raised, you know, and and my race was 300 330 million. And and now that's quaint. Wait till '26. Wait till '28. This is going to look like quaint. And that and that's the thing. You know, collectively collectively collectively need to get money out or this group needs to be donating a lot more to both of us. of us. of us. Yeah, or get get rid of get rid of the primary pri- process, too. You know, and and now open to other people and now these primaries they identify the extreme kinds of views and put out someone, you know, and and that's part of it now, too.

Collectively $300 million were spent to to describe to destroy our reputations. Think what $300 million could do for Pennsylvania or for people. That was spent to destroy reputations. You know, you're terrible and I'm terrible. Uh that's the absurdity of the American politics. Right. Right. Right. On on that note, I actually want to say both of you are incredibly rational and reasonable and incredible Americans. So, I just want to thank you. Senators Fetterman and McCormick Very much appreciate it. Thank you, guys. Thanks, buddy. Thanks, brother. Good to see you, man.

Yeah, that was good. Thank