Self-Knowledge Is Always Bad News | Dan Harris on Wild Card with Rachel Martin

Key Takeaway

The next time you're spiraling in anxiety, ask yourself one simple question from meditation teacher Joseph Goldstein: 'Is this useful?' Some worrying makes sense, but we often cross the line between constructive anguish and useless rumination. This single question can snap you out of overthinking and redirect your energy toward what actually matters—even helping someone else instead of drowning in your own thoughts.

Episode Overview

Dan Harris, host of the 10% Happier podcast, sits down with Rachel Martin for NPR's Wild Card to discuss loneliness, meditation, envy, and the Buddhist concept of no-self. Through candid stories about claustrophobia, Instagram deletion, and realizing he wasn't as 'chill' as he thought, Harris reveals how self-awareness and acceptance of being 'goodish' can transform defensiveness into growth.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Self-Knowledge Is Always Bad News | Dan Harris on Wild Card with Rachel Martin from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Hey, it's the 10% Happier podcast. I'm your host Dan Harris. Today we have a conversation about envy, Instagram, defensiveness, and why the Buddhists do not believe you have a soul. soul. soul. This is a conversation between me and my old friend Rachel Martin from NPR. Uh she has her own show called Wild Card, which she refers to as a metaphysical game show. So, what you're about to hear is me playing the game with her. And the goal is for you to enjoy our conversation, but also to go check out her show, which again is called Wild Card.

All right, we'll get started with Rachel Martin and Wild Card right after this. I was on my first retreat and everybody was bowing to the Buddha and I thought it was like I really hated it and then I wrote about how I started doing it, but only for a hamstring stretch. stretch. stretch. My favorite thing I ever wrote was the first line to my first book, which was the voice in my head is an [ __ ] And I think that is true. I think it's true for many people.

Have you ever heard the expression self-knowledge is always bad news? No, but that's so true. I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wild Card, the game where cards control the conversation. My guest this week is Dan Harris. Dan Harris and I have been on parallel tracks for much of our career. We both covered faith and spirituality as reporters. We were colleagues for a while at ABC and then several years later we both ended up leaving our news jobs. I started this very show and Dan created the incredibly successful podcast 10% Happier based on his book of the same name.

He's generous and wise and the only Buddhist I know who can drop the F-word into a mantra and somehow it works. I'm so happy to welcome Dan Harris to Wild Card. Wild Card. Wild Card. Hi. Hi. Hi. I love I love that. That's my innovation. innovation. innovation. That's your value add to the Dharma. We're just going to start with memories. First three cards, I hold three up and you pick randomly one, two, or three. Two. Two. Two. Two. Feeling two. At what point in your life did you spend the most time alone?

Well, Well, Well, uh there was a strange twist in my life uh uh uh that you you made a reference to, which is after is after is after uh decades of being a hard-charging news anchor, I got interested in meditation. Mhm. As a result of that, I now every year do a 10-day silent meditation retreat. Uh in fact, this year I'm going to do on the urging of my teacher, I'm going to do 14 days. Uh so, that is a lot of alone time and uh in silence.

Um and uh it's challenging. I I um um um A lot of people focus on the silent aspect of silent retreats. Not talking isn't a huge problem for me. Um Um Um it's loneliness. it's loneliness. it's loneliness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a way in which um it kind of brings up this primordial primordial primordial sadness uh like a homesickness. Mhm. And and even though I am homesick for my actual home, it it's kind of It's all people. It I don't know. It's deeper than that.

It's it's um I think one of the psychological trends for me in looking back at my life is is a fear of feeling unmoored, alone, adrift. Uh and the some of the earliest traumas, and this may be a small T trauma uh uh uh for me. I had I've had a very uh charmed life. Uh but going to summer camp as a kid was incredibly hard for me and I used to have these really intense gnarly bouts of homesickness. I have a very clear memory of sitting in the back of my my dad's shit-brown Plymouth Valiant um Valiant um Valiant um and weeping in his lap on visiting day.

Um and I would just I would be bereft every summer for a period of time and then I would recover. So, loneliness is a root of sadness for you. Yeah. Yes, loneliness loneliness loneliness Yes, it it's but it's loneliness, but it's also this kind of yearning for some some connection or stability. Like it was was was Homesickness feels like a better word for it, but like a a much much bigger than than than wanting my actual home, whatever wherever that happens to be in the moment.

But why what what do you get out of putting yourself intentionally in that position? that position? that position? I mean, 10 days is a long time. Now you're going to do 14 days silent retreat, no people hardly. What I mean, I guess it's exposure therapy? I don't know. Well, a couple a couple of things to say about that. This is the perfect question. I'm laughing because it's perfect. perfect. perfect. One of the immense sources of power in mindfulness meditation is that you see see see that some poet said this, maybe Rilke.

I can't believe I'm the kind of guy who quotes poetry now, but anyway, that no feeling is final. Mhm. Everything changes all the time. And so, when you get really quiet uh and your mind is tuned up because you're doing this exercise of trying to focus on one thing at a time, usually the feeling of your breath coming in and going out, and then every time you get distracted, you start again and again and again. What it helps you see is how quickly the mind is working all the time.

We're moving We're like, as my meditation teacher says, throughout the day we're kind of like a bee in a jar moving up through excitement or interest and then down through loneliness or anger or uh uh uh fear or whatever. We're just cycling through these thoughts and emotions and urges so quickly all the time. And what happens on retreat is you start to And this can happen in a daily practice, too. You just start to see how wild and chaotic the mind is and as a result, you're not so owned by it.

And so, I do go through a period of loneliness or homesickness, usually in the first couple of days of retreat. Mhm. But the power is seeing, oh yeah, I I can I can be with this. And it's going to change. to change. to change. with you, right? It it is also like, I'm just going to sit with myself and all that myself contains. Not all of it's awesome. awesome. awesome. Yes, and but and and this is a little out there, so you may you may want to cut it, but then you start to see like, what is this thing I'm calling a self?

Mhm. How solid is that? Mhm. And that's a that's a very interesting, sometimes a little scary, but ultimately liberating thing because then you don't take your emotions, your anxiety, your anger, whatever, so personally. And you're able to work with them in a more fluid and sophisticated way. And so, it's a long way of answering your question, which is why do I put myself through this retreat? Well, why would you put yourself through a vigorous workout? That sucks, too, but it has many many benefits. Okay, there's so much in there I want to get back to, so maybe one of these cards will afford us the opportunity.

Okay, next set of three. One, two, or three. three. three. Three. Three. Three. Three. What's a moment with a stranger that made you feel loved? Okay, you answer that first. Oh, flipping that one. Um Um Um so, I I have talked about this before. I I sort of live for for those moments, like stranger moments. I love stranger kindness. From the tiniest little things. I like I I I get weepy when someone waves to me when I've let them in on a lane of traffic or they have done the same for me.

It like makes me so because there's so many jerks who drive and when someone just acknowledges, I'm like, oh yes, thank you. thank you. thank you. Um the more uh the more profound story is that I um my eldest kid eldest kid eldest kid during the pandemic, we went on a trip up to New Hampshire and we were at these waterfalls that come cascade down all these rocks and um he fell down this waterfall. He waterfall. He waterfall. He uh uh uh he slipped and he fell about 10 feet and landed on his back on a rock.

It was incredibly harrowing. It was very scary. We had to wait a long time for people to hike up the mountain with a stretcher on tires. It was wild. And um and there was just a woman there who was a nurse and she was with her own kids and own family and she she was everything you want that person to be in that moment, you know? And we're it's COVID. We're outside, but everyone's still wearing masks, so I couldn't even see her face, just her eyes and she had the kindest eyes.

And as a mother, she knew exactly what I was feeling feeling feeling and um and she just she gave me all her love and kindness and I just felt it so profoundly. It was such a gift to me in that moment. And we exchanged holiday cards for a few years and um I just I I love the opportunity to repeat that story because we all have the capacity to touch people in moments of crisis like that, but in the most banal moments when you think a thing doesn't matter, like to reach out to a person person person from a place of compassion creates a story that that person might tell for decades, you know?

So, that's my story. It was beautiful. It's really beautiful. Just to put some some some uh uh uh a sheen of uh psychological research on top of this, you know, there there there's been a quite a bit of research into what uh the the scientist Barbara Fredrickson calls um micro interactions. And so so we tend to move I'll speak for myself as somebody who kind of wired as a frosty New Englander. I for much of my life in fact, you know, I kind of wince a little bit with embarrassment to recall that you met me in that we met each other in 2006 cuz I was very much in this mode at that time of just hurtling through the world in a sort of self-centered ambitious way and um um um often really often really often really frankly rude uh to to people not because of you were super serious, very focused, a little tightly wound, and just like very serious person.

serious person. serious person. Well, Well, Well, um um um that's all true and I you know, I fear that it's a little generous honestly and uh you know, I I I I what I was doing was denying myself of a massive opportunity for well-being. You know, we we life is a target-rich opportunity for these these these little moments of happiness that uh Dr. Fredrickson calls micro interactions. You know, we're just constantly moving constantly moving constantly moving uh through the world and and meeting other people, baristas, the people you give your clothes to at the dry cleaner, coming into NPR today I met Summer who's one of your producers and these don't have to be long exchanges.

It's just like uh a little chit-chat. Summer grew up in Las Vegas and I was telling her about how I took my son to Vegas and he loved it and you know you know you know neither of us may ever ultimately remember this interaction, but it's a little hit of dopamine that is available to all of us as we move through the world. So let me answer your actual question about uh uh a stranger interaction that made me feel loved. Um Um Um just to set this up a little bit.

I notwithstanding the fact that I'm allegedly some sort of happiness expert, you know, continue to Only 10% happier. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. I thank God I called the book 10% happier. Um happier. Um happier. Um I I have lots of challenges, you know, and one of them is that uh I have really intense claustrophobia. Oh, yeah. I know this one. It's gotten worse over the years. years. years. Really? And um I so I struggle on elevators and airplanes. It's a it's a it's a real challenge for me and uh there's a there's a there's a a studio in New York City where I often record podcasts when I'm not recording from my home studio and uh one day I showed up at the studio and I was in the middle of this I was at a in a particularly bad place with my claustrophobia and it was the first time I'd been there and uh I saw I looked at the elevators and they looked really small and scary to me and uh I I kind of was panicking and I had a suitcase and all this stuff with me and the security guard looked at me and I said, "Hey, said, "Hey, said, "Hey, c- c- c- can I just can I walk up?" And he's like, "It's 16 flights, dude, and you've got all this stuff." And he said he got up from his desk, put his blazer on and said, "I'm going to ride with you." He somehow knew what was going on with me.

His name is Barry, b a r i uh and uh I see him all the time cuz I go to the studio and he rode with he said, "I'll hold your hand if you want." And I didn't need him to hold my hand, but he just talked to me about where he's from and where his family lives and we made it to the 16th floor and even though though though I'm slightly more stable in my claustrophobia having done a lot of um uh uh uh what's called exposure therapy uh every time I go to the studio Barry rides the elevator with me.

Oh, come on. This is a beautiful story. Mhm. That's a beautiful story. I love that he just saw that and didn't make a big deal out of it. He was just like, "This is what we're doing. I'm just going to ride up with you." Yeah. I got you. Last one in this round. One, two, or three? One. You knew. One. You're feeling one. When did you first find a group of peers who really understood you? Oh. I uh I remember the exact moment. Really? Really? Really?

Yes. So I had a really good group of friends in high school and uh also some good friends in college. Um Um Um But But But it it it I was always jealous of my little brother uh who loved his college so much and uh really had this crew that it just he felt he felt he felt they were they were so smart and he felt so embedded in it and I never had that. All through my 20s I was kind of moving around in television news from small market to small market and I had friends, but I just didn't have I didn't I never felt like I had my crew.

And um and then my when I turned 30 I or actually in my late 20s I moved to New York City and started working at ABC News and for the first couple of years I was traveling so much. It was post-9/11 and I was in war zones and I was just you know, away for long periods of time and I came home in in 2003 after I think 6 months in Iraq and uh I didn't have I really just the few friends I had in New York City had moved away and really didn't have didn't have didn't have I felt very lonely here we're coming back to this and um a guy from work, a guy I didn't even really like that much invited me to a party.

party. party. And And And at that party I met a bunch of people I really liked and one of them who's still one of my best friends to this day, her name is Kayama. Kayama came over to me and said, "We're having a party tonight tomorrow night. night. night. Um Double date. come. Don't don't bring that guy." She said, "I like you. I don't like your friend, but you should come to this party tomorrow night." And at that party I met another guy named Willie and Kayama and Willie and now our massive like cinematic universe of friends are that's those are my people and it was it my life is like a before and after that weekend.

weekend. weekend. So I have to ask you, what was it about those people in particular that made you feel understood in a way that you hadn't before? Why did those become your friends? friends? friends? I really like smart weirdos. You know, I guess I come off as you know, I I I was former anchorman. I kind of still talk like an anchorman. present as weird, Dan. You don't present as weird. as weird. as weird. what I'm saying. But I am weird. I mean, you know, I'm the guy who like needs help getting on an elevator and you know, know, know, uh goes on silent meditation retreats.

I'm a definitely a a weirdo. I'm an part of why I'm so happy not to be in the news industry is you know, I'm I'm I have a much more creative output these days and there are in our extended friend group, there are writers and artists and artists and artists and uh people who do all sorts of things and that just makes life and I'm married to a doctor and so it's very diverse in every possible way and that just makes life more interesting. Yeah. Before we start round two, I'm going to step back from the game and talk about your podcast and where you're at in your professional life, which I think is a good place from the outside it seems to be.

be. be. And tell me if I'm my mouth is right. Is this 10 years of doing your podcast? It is, right? 10% happier? Congratulations. Thank you. I mean, you're a former news person. You know that we we ascribe this meaning to these times, these anniversaries, but 10 years is a thing. For for better for worse, it's a place where culturally we set a marker and we kind of look back. And so I as you look back on the last 10 years, how's the show changed? What are you what are you still trying to figure out in terms of how you how you learn and teach simultaneously, which is what 10% happier feels like to me.

I would say the biggest change is that when it started it was very meditation focused. Mhm. And while I'm uh still a huge believer and proponent in the practice, the show over time has really evolved into every aspect of doing life better. You know, we really think about it as drawing from modern psychology and ancient wisdom to you know, all evidence-based stuff to help you upgrade your life and um and I'm just following my own interests here. Uh you know, so I'm interested in how to sleep better, how to exercise without you know, being driven by self-hatred, how to how to how to um you know, improve your your work life, how to improve your home life.

I I want to talk about all these things because as discussed, I'm a bit of a mess myself and so I'm just kind of using this the way many of the psychology researchers I interview talk about their own work is research is me search and that's what's happening on the podcast. the podcast. the podcast. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that's what's happening in your work. Yes, 100%. No, I started this because I have my own questions and it's helpful to hear from other people if they're still in if they're in the muck of those same questions and how they've managed their way out or conclusions or if they're just still swimming in the existential goo of it all.

I mean, you talk about how the podcast has evolved to be, you know, let's just look at all of our life and and different facets of it and how we can improve. But I do feel like this optimization culture can sometimes feel oppressive. Like everything can always be better and so how do we make it better? My sleep and I got the rings, and I got the apps that tell me the stuff, and um sometimes do you just want to throw it all up and be like, "On today's episode, how to just be cool with having things not be better than they are?" It's a huge theme on our show, and it's a huge uh uh uh um topic of discussion on my team.

Um I have a really um uh mixed relationship with this idea of optimization. I I am naturally somebody who uh who uh who uh uh uh uh wants to, you know, track my sleep and count my steps and all that stuff, but it I I think it's a really it I I think it's a really tricky Yeah. thing to do without driving yourself crazy. There's a great expression, the subtle aggression of self-improvement. self-improvement. self-improvement. Mhm. I I think, however, if you can switch the motivation to, and I'm going to use a loaded word, but if you switch the motivation to love, Mhm.

it just becomes simpler. Uh so, one of the things that I've gotten into the habit of saying of saying of saying uh throughout the day, before I meditate or before I exercise or before I go to bed, is and this is a little kind of off-brand in its earnestness, but I'm doing this, fill in the blank, exercise, whatever, whatever, whatever, um um um so that I can be stronger and happier, so that I can make other people stronger and happier. and happier. and happier. That s- tweak to my motivation Yeah.

It's not just about you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, [clears throat] it is about me. Let's say it's cool, like I think it's totally fine to self-love is really important. In fact, I think it's the unlock for a whole spiral of benefits. Because how we are with ourselves inexorably redounds to how we are with other people. And so, if you can take care of yourself, that's not self-indulgence, and it's not weakness. Um So, yeah, that's that's kind of how I think about it, and I I I On the show, the the spirit very much is, "Look, this is a menu, not a to-do list.

We're going to explore all these things, but you should take what you want." Like want." Like want." Like whatever works for you is is cool. Like I there's I there's I there's I There are some of my brothers and sisters in the wellness space who are super prescriptive, and that's just not my style. my style. my style. So, if there's a person listening or watching who has not had the opportunity to check your show out, I know this can be an annoying question, but tell me an episode that you would point someone to.

Where do you send them? Probably the Probably the most influential person for me in in this whole space of what whatever you want to call it, wellness, human flourishing, whatever, is a guy who's not famous. Um his name is Joseph Goldstein. Oh, he's your teacher. And he's a Yeah, he's my meditation teacher, has been for a a long time, and he's a very close friend. And he's 82 years old, does not, you know, wear robes or anything like that. He's a Jewish guy from the Catskills who wears khakis and button-downs.

He you know, it doesn't ha- He doesn't present as a as a guru. Uh but he is a walking example of what can happen with sustained practice. He is funny and smart and other-oriented and helpful and helpful and helpful and teaches using these very pithy phrases. phrases. phrases. Mhm. Just little like one-liners that are kind of like Buddhist earworms. They just, you know, wiggle their way into your mindstream and then surface when you need them the most. So, I'll give you an example. Um the next time you're in a spiral of anxiety, anxiety, anxiety, maybe if you can catch yourself in one of these um overthinking periods, ask yourself this question.

And again, this comes from Joseph. Joseph. Joseph. Is this useful? Like some amount of worrying makes sense, but we often and very quickly cross the line between constructive anguish and useless rumination. And that little question of, "Is this useful? Or should I you know, think about something else? Maybe even help somebody else." That's an incredibly helpful little earworm. And so, uh at the beginning of this year, 2026, I dropped two episodes with Joseph where we went through a bunch of these phrases. And you just get to hear this truly brilliant human being um um um who I and I I don't love this word ins- inspiring, but it is inspiring in a in in the true sense of that word, because it it gives you a sense of, "Oh, yeah, like this is what's on offer." Right.

If I if I follow this path. Right. Right. Right. Thank you for that. I'm going to go check it out. Everyone else should, too. We're back in the game. Round two. Insights. One, two, or three? One. One. What do you enjoy complaining about? My own mind. Uh the first the first line uh this I may be my favorite thing I don't love my own writing, honestly. I have a I think it's my writing is fine, but I, you know, and I write I do write books, but my favorite thing I ever wrote was the first line to my first book, which was was was the voice in my head is an [ __ ] And I think that is true I think it's true for many people.

Like we have this like like like nattering nattering nattering uh inner voice that, you know, is chasing us out of bed in the morning, and we're just constantly wanting stuff, not wanting stuff, judging people, comparing ourselves to other people. And when you're unaware of this this inner conversation, it owns you. Mhm. And this is like the this is my MO. I think it's very useful to talk openly, especially I've been blessed with this public platform, it's very [snorts] useful, I think, to talk openly about all of my craziness.

One of the most common words that Joseph Goldstein uses is ridiculous. is ridiculous. is ridiculous. And he uses it to describe the mind. It's ridiculous. We're just [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] we're we're always in the past or the future instead of right now. We're always comparing ourselves to other people. We're always judging other people, putting ourselves down. It's ridiculous. One of the little things he gets people to do is, if you're in one of these periods of time where you're just totally down on yourself, Mhm.

count the judgmental thoughts. Count the self-judgmental thoughts. They just count But by the time you hit 87, you just start laughing at it. You know, it's just it's silly and powerless. Yes. Because there's an element of just it's silly. It's just it's not worth it, right? Like it doesn't it doesn't give it so much power and agency. It's just ridiculous. Just let it go. And that um that feels that feels powerful in and of itself, just the word. Okay. word. Okay. word. Okay. Your own brain.

That's what you like to complain about. complain about. complain about. Next three. Next three. Next three. One, two, or three? Two. Two. Two. When has envy been a problem for you? Oh, man, all the time. I just deleted Instagram because it was just like I have an amazing life I have such an incredible life, but somehow, every time I looked at Instagram, I felt like I had a terrible life. And it's such a reliable source of unhappiness for me. is. And uh you know, everybody's at a party I'm not invited to, or everybody's career is taking off in ways that mine is not, and so deuces.

Uh deuces. Uh deuces. Uh I'm out. Like I still post of your job? It's like embedded in your job, like the metrics, how many followers you have, how many subscribers you have, how many Instagram posts. Like you do them. I see you walking down the street, and you do them, and they're really good and powerful, but that it's all on that same platform that is the source of so much angst and envy and sadness. Yes, and I have a lot of problems with social media. So, why then am I creating content for it?

It's where the eyeballs are, and if I can be a little node of sanity, as by the way, as are you, because I see your stuff on social media um and in particular the you and I texted about this offline, the Melinda French Gates clip that I thought you handled so beautifully. So, I think you we can I think it's possible to put little little little nuggets of goodness out there on on social media, but it it is largely a morass. Yeah. One, two, or three?

Three. Three. Three. What's something you thought about yourself that you had to unlearn? Can I flip it again? No. I mean, yes. Fine. Yes, you can. Yeah, you can. YEAH. YOU CAN. This is a hard one. Okay, so my answer to this question Oh, [snorts] it's kind of sad. It's not that sad. Um I thought that I was like a chill, relaxed person that was friendly all the time, and like just like a chill person. I This was how I thought of myself in my mind.

And after many years of working on this morning news show, I got enough data back. I got enough feedback from other people I worked with to prove otherwise. And it was a shock for me when I heard, not directly, but almost more personal I could figure out what you're communicating between the lines, and the feedback I was getting was, "Oh, you are not chill. You are not a chill person. Like you're actually a super intense person. And your vibes can be intense, and it can kind of elevate everybody else is not chill." And that was a hard thing.

So, I think at its core the question tends to be about what's a thing a negative thing you thought about yourself that you had to unlearn. But the thing that comes to my mind is like, "Well, I thought I was pretty great." And it turns out I was kind of a jerk. jerk. jerk. That was a revelation to me. Have you ever heard the expression self-knowledge is always bad news? No, but that's so true. Yeah. [gasps] Yeah. [gasps] I had I had I had a story in my head that I didn't fully crystallize until a couple of years ago.

And the story was that I'm a bad person. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Um I think it has its roots in childhood and some of the kind of family dynamics and dynamics and dynamics and yeah, I just got it in my head that like I was I was I was just irretrievably selfish and mean. Mhm. Uh I had a bullying incident when I was a kid where I was the bad guy. Mhm. Um Mhm. Um Mhm. Um And I I think that was a key moment where I just kind of internalized like, "Oh, yeah.

"Oh, yeah. "Oh, yeah. I'm I'm the bad guy." And uh I that was just a big part of my operating system and was why uh uh uh I would get very defensive anytime I got tough feedback. tough feedback. tough feedback. Um I would I would just overreact because because because it was triggering this thing that I didn't want to look at. Mhm. Um Mhm. Um Mhm. Um And then over Yeah, what shifted? I I I uh uh uh well, lots of therapy and meditation and um getting the getting feedback and taking it in after periods of defensiveness.

Uh a friend of mine, really smart friend of mine, her name is Dolly Chugh, and she's a professor at NYU School of Business, and she has this expression expression expression goodish. goodish. goodish. Uh and that that actually has been a key unlock for me. Um so, many of us uh have a story that we're a good person or a bad person, but when we get feedback, we get defensive because it it either reminds us that we think we're a bad person or it challenge challenges our core belief that we're a good person, and so that's the wellspring of defensiveness.

defensiveness. defensiveness. If, however, you change your self-concept to goodish, um um um which by the way, it just makes complete sense. We're all a mix of good and bad. But if you change your self-concept to goodish, well, then when you find out you screwed up and you're not as chill uh uh uh in the, you know, hallways of NPR as you thought you were, um well, then okay, well, that's fine. It doesn't it's not fundamentally threatening threatening threatening uh cuz I'm goodish, and I so uh there's always room to grow.

It's it's what the psychologists call a growth mindset. And so talking to Dolly about that was one of the things that really turned things around for me. I love the idea of goodish. It's interesting to try to teach your kids that. That's where I'm at right now is like talking about the goodish of human nature. And that we're all good and bad, and Yes. it's a complicated concept actually to wrap your head around because so much of parenting and so much of like children's literature and storytelling is about the good and the bad, and they are separate and distinct characters.

And it's it's it's like next level to think about, "Oh, it's it lives in all of us. And what is what do we choose to lean into, and what is activated, and what are our triggers for each of those components?" But we all have that duality. duality. duality. Well said, and I think it's a big problem in our news environment, too, especially in this algorithmically driven news environment where you are being fed, you know, outrage porn all the time from your side, and it's giving you a cartoonish version of the other side.

So, we're good, they're bad. There's no nuance. Mhm. And um you know, that's a good way to destroy a civilization. Right. Right. Right. Last round, beliefs. Three new cards, one, two, or three? One. One. One. What's your best definition of the soul? Well, in Buddhism uh you know, the founding principle of Buddhism of Buddhism is that there is no soul. The Buddha came out of a a Vedic or Hindu context, but then and in Hinduism, they talk about um the soul. Uh but the Buddha's concept was actually there is no soul.

Actually, if you tune up the microscope of the mind, you see that everything's changing so rapidly that there can't be some solid unchanging nugget of anything. And by the way, this goes back to my story about being a bad person. I can't be How could I be permanently bad when nothing is permanent? Yeah. There is no bedrock. And this this is is is And this is just intuitively true when you say it out loud, but hard then when you apply it to something like a soul.

And so the the key to understanding this, again, from a Buddhist context, which nobody has to believe if they don't want, um is that two things are true at the same time. On the one hand, Rachel Martin is real. I'm looking at her, and if she looks in the mirror, she will see herself, and she's got a social media feed, and she's got a podcast, and and a resume, and all that stuff. And yeah, Rachel's real. Um However, uh if you close your eyes and look for some core nugget of Rachel, you won't find it.

You'll find physical sensations, thoughts, emotions in a fluxing gumbo. fluxing gumbo. fluxing gumbo. Um And so it's self is, just fluxing gumbo. There is no It's like this chair I'm sitting in right now. Bring a high-powered microscope to it. I would find mostly empty space populated by spinning subatomic particles. That's true at the same time as this chair, I trust it, and I sit in it. And so Rachel's real, and she's not real at the same time. Rachel doesn't have a soul though from this, you know, sort of uh high-powered microscope perspective.

Does that Does that make sense what I'm saying? it's just we're all just living in this weird social contract where we've just decided to agree that we all exist. And just by by deciding, we make it we make it thus. But Yes. And And I think actually th- this is where this construct this that I'm um uh proposing to you via the Buddha uh starts to become practical uh because yes, we do live in a consensual reality or what the Buddhists call relative truth. Uh as opposed to the ultimate truth, which is back to the spinning subatomic particles.

And these two levels of reality speak to each other. So, the next time you're stuck in some story about how Rachel's this way, she's not this way, life is going this way or that way, you can you can switch into the ultimate perspective for a second. Okay? No, no, no, on some level, this is all an illusion. This is all a like a in a movie, a play of light and sound on a on a projected on a screen. There isn't there isn't solidity. It's just 24 frames per second.

Mhm. And then it And then for people who tend to drift off into that kind of nihilistic space of oh, and none of it matters. matters. matters. Yeah. No, no, no, it does matter. Both things are true at the same time. Like we are we are human beings, and our ethical conduct has consequences or lack of ethical conduct has consequences, too. And so you you want to hold It's a paradox. Much of life is understanding and utilizing paradox, and this is the big one, in my opinion, that these two things are true at the same time, and can you toggle back and forth between them with some skill.

skill. skill. How does that affect your idea of um um um um your feelings about about being forgotten, about about there being no remainder of you. I mean, I know you have a child. There's like a physical remainder of you. Mhm. But how many generations before nobody remembers who who who great-grandpa Dan was? Does that freak you out, or is that just part of the deal? It doesn't freak me out that much. You know, I I about a year and a half ago, I was interviewing somebody on my show who's an amazing Buddhist teacher named Vinny Ferraro, who it has an incredible story, which I'll tell very quickly, which is that he grew up in a very low-income environment in Rhode Island, and was a addict and a criminal, and served several stints in jail and prison, and at one during one of his terms, he was in there with his own father.

Mhm. Uh and got out, got sober, found the Dharma, and has become this incredible teacher. He's the only teacher I've ever interviewed who throughout the whole interview will call me bro. Um And he's very funny and very wise. And he got me interested in an aspect of Buddhism that a lot of people might be tempted to reject, and that's totally fine. It's hardcore. But the Buddha himself recommended that twice a day you recall five things. This body that I'm occupying is of the nature to grow old.

It's of the nature to get sick. It will die. N- Here's the the grimmest one. grimmest one. grimmest one. Everything and everyone I uh cherish uh cherish uh cherish uh will someday be lost to me. Mhm. And the fifth one where he kind of pulls the knife out a little bit as Vinnie says, the only true possessions I have in this context are my actions. And so that's [clears throat] where the kind of hope resides, which is okay, so yeah, we if you want to look at it, the truth of truth of truth of this reality that we inhabit is that it is relentlessly impermanent Mhm.

and chaotic and entropic and very little is in your control. But you are in control of your actions to a large degree and the and the and the the the the karmic consequences of those actions will outlive you. And so if you take that seriously, it it will impact how you behave. you behave. you behave. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And that to me feels like a soul. Like I guess when I use that word, it's just some kind of what what difference do we make, who are we, and if we are the sum total of how we behave here, the choices we make and the actions we take and the consequences of those actions.

those actions. those actions. That makes sense to me. Makes sense to me, too. I'm totally cool with calling that a soul. I I don't, you know, I have no desire to like police people's language. So soul is it's certainly inoffensive to me, but from a from a Buddhist perspective, you know, it it's it it's it it's not a thing. It's not a thing. Three more. One, two, or three? Two. Two. Two. Is there a religious practice or ritual that you're envious of? The the The the I have this odd interest in something that simultaneously repulses me, which is devotional practice.

There are aspects of Buddhism where you really and and other traditions as well, where you sort of you bow Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. to to to a statue of the Buddha or it could be Quan Yin who's um I I I this is where my Buddhist knowledge is going to um uh run out of road, but it I think she is like the avatar of compassion in certain schools of Buddhism. And so I don't know a ton about this devotional practice. I just know that I have some friends who've done it and I I see that my initial response to it is revulsion.

Like the like prostrating yourself in front of some kind of literally prostrations. literally prostrations. literally prostrations. And And And when I have that kind of response, I always try to investigate it. Like all right, what's going on there? Because my life has just been a succession of things that I dismissed and was totally wrong about and later came to embrace. And so I'm just curious like, huh, what's going on with that? It is interesting that that practice and at the same time I like you see a person who can do that and it feels also like a beautiful surrender.

It feels like a like beauty and liberation in that kind of surrender. of surrender. of surrender. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In my first book, I wrote about how I was on my first retreat and everybody was bowing to the Buddha and I thought it was like I really hated it and then I wrote about how I started doing it, but only for a hamstring stretch. I I think the way I've come to understand devotional practice to the extent that I understand it at all, which is very limited, is that ultimately what you're bowing to is an aspect of the mind of the human mind.

So like compassion that we that that is papered over and sometimes cemented over cemented over cemented over by the world, by the world we live in where we're just armoring up and hardened, but we have this it is quintessentially human capacity for compassion, for love. To just to put it in plain English, to give a [ __ ] about ourselves and others, right? This is you know, love is this panoramic inner capacity that we have. Yeah. Bowing to the avatar of compassion is a way to it's like a snake charming that you're doing on yourself to bring that that aspect, that hidden aspect of the mind into greater salience.

Last one. Last one. One, two, or three? Three. Three. Three. What's an experience you wish you could give every person? I think most of us, consciously or subconsciously, kind of think we're stuck stuck stuck with how we are. Mhm. We have X amount of patience, X amount of generosity um um um but what we know from the science is that that that the brain by extension the mind uh uh uh it's trainable. You know, doing what what the brain is the organ of experience. So how you arrange your life, the practices you do or don't do, that you're just constantly training your brain.

your brain. your brain. Mhm. You learn how to play violin, your brain's going to change. You see it on the brain scans. You learn how to meditate, your brain will change. You get better at social fitness, your brain changes. changes. changes. We are not stuck with the aspects of our personality that we may be struggling with. Like this change is possible. It's messy and marginal and even people like me who have been meditating, you know, for a while and write books about it, you know, I continue to be a schmuck in lots of ways, but you know, the trajectory is the right one for me and it can be for anybody.

anybody. anybody. Right. And so you can be this little node of sanity in a chaotic world. And so that's the experience I want people to have. Like you can improve your life and it matters. Like it it is a political act. It's not self-indulgent. It doesn't make you a doormat. It it um yeah, it really matters. And so that kind of hope not gaslighting you and telling you everything's fine because everything's not fine, but you do have more power than you think to improve your own mind and by extension the world.

Thank you for that. Now I'm on a [ __ ] soapbox, sorry. soapbox, sorry. soapbox, sorry. god, god, god, I love a soapbox. I love it. Dan Harris, we end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine. In the time machine, you revisit one moment from your past. It is not a moment you would change anything about. It's just a moment you'd like to linger in a little bit longer. bit longer. bit longer. What moment do you choose? Oh my god, there's so many to choose from.

The moment that's coming to mind is I had this completely random experience the summer after my junior year in high school school school where I had been a total screw up my whole high school career, had a thriving weed business weed business weed business um just like really a just a not a good student. And I kind of was starting to get it together and I ended up getting into the summer school at Harvard, which isn't like getting into Harvard. Uh not at all cuz I was not I didn't get into Harvard.

I was never going to get into Harvard, but you can apply to the summer school and be a mediocre student and get in. And so I but I I was surrounded by all these smart kids and had a great summer and I was sitting on a warm Cambridge night on the front stoop of the dorm where I was living and I just kind of entered into this calm elation. Huh. And it comes back for me once in a while on a meditation retreat of just like I would say the underlying feeling is everything's okay.

Mhm. And for an anxious person Mhm. that is delicious. What a lovely thing. Yeah. Where would you go? Oh, in my memory time machine? I mean I mean I mean I'm grateful that I'm the host of the show and that I don't have to answer the memory time machine question. Because it's hard to narrow it down. Yeah, it's hard to narrow. You want to say the birth of your children and all that stuff. that stuff. that stuff. but it's also like, you know, what comes up?

It's like what Right now. Okay, so part of what the memory time machine is is you just um let whatever come up come up. And like so right now the thing that is coming up, I don't I have no idea why, is driving with my mom. My mom's been uh passed away a long time ago. But driving with my mom like in high school in Idaho Falls, my hometown in Idaho, through one of those coffee shacks. Like Idaho Falls didn't have proper coffee shops when I was growing up.

So it would be like in a strip mall, there'd be a coffee shack. And it was like a new thing and she would have her little punch card. punch card. punch card. And we would just she would look at me like with such glee. Like let's stop for a coffee. And we would pull up. I'm getting weepy. I don't know what's significant about that. That's just what came up. And I would love to sit in the car with my mom and get a drive-thru coffee from the coffee shack in front of the Safeway in Idaho Falls.

I did not expect to do that, Dan Harris. Well, it's totally beautiful and yeah, what yeah, what you said something like what I don't know why this is coming up. Well, it's a moment of Pleasure. I love talking to you every time. time. time. talking to you. This the it's such a beautiful thing you've just invented here with the with this game and just watching my own mind as we play it, you know, the questions you're not expecting you don't know what the questions are going to be and then it just to see what comes up, you know, like it it's a it's like you've taken this cheesy format of a game show and just made it something with infinite depth.

Thank you. Dan Harris is the host of the wildly successful podcast 10% Happier, the author of many books. And I'm so glad to talk to you. Thank you. you. you. Huge pleasure, always. Thank you. If you liked this episode and I hope you did, you can drop us a comment and let us know. We love hearing from you, truly. You can also like the video and subscribe to the channel to get more from Wild Card.