Self-Help Without Other People Is Just Selfish — and Here’s the Science to Prove It | Dan Harris

Key Takeaway

Today, pair one minute of mindfulness with one small act of connection. While brushing your teeth, waiting in line, or walking, notice physical sensations; when your mind wanders, simply begin again. Then deliberately greet one person you would usually rush past—your barista, colleague, neighbor, or driver. This trains attention while creating a “micro interaction” that can lift mood, reduce isolation, and build the relationship habits that support long-term wellbeing.

Episode Overview

In a live conversation with Allison Gilbert, Dan Harris reframes meditation as practical mental training rather than an attempt to empty the mind. He explains how mindfulness, self-compassion, and small moments of human connection can interrupt anxiety, soften reactivity, and create an upward spiral between inner wellbeing and stronger relationships.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Self-Help Without Other People Is Just Selfish — and Here’s the Science to Prove It | Dan Harris from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Hello, my fellow suffering beings. Uh, welcome to the 10% Happier podcast. I'm your host, Dan Harris. Normally on this show, given that I'm the host, I ask a bunch of questions of some smart guest. Today though, I'm on the receiving end of the questions. What you're about to hear is an event that was recorded live at the 92nd Street Y where I was interviewed uh by the journalist Allison Gilbert. We talk about why meditation still has a PR problem. Why self-help without thinking about other people is just selfish.

How I personally cope with my panic disorder and sometimes take stairs instead of the elevator. The case for loving kindness practice even though it can feel a little cheesy. I sometimes describe it as uh being like Valentine's Day with a gun to your head. and why and how uh I used Chachi PT to help me get a really important recent medical diagnosis. So, a lot here and I think you're going to enjoy it. A little bit more uh before we dive in on Allison Gilbert, who is the one asking the questions.

Uh she runs a series of events at the 92nd Street Y, which is an incredible institution in New York City. It's called uh the connected lives series. So, it's an occasional series of events she does. She also has an app called More Connected that helps you uh feel less isolated, build stronger friendships, etc., etc. Uh you can get that app by visiting being moreconnected.com. Thank you guys for coming and thank you Dan Harris. Dan Harris. Dan Harris. Thanks for having me. I am just uh a kid in a candy store.

Truly, I am so thrilled that you're here. And I want to start with some congratulations for you. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. 10 years. 10 years. 10 years. I didn't know you were going to graduate before I before I before I Well, it's 10 years of your podcast. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I just Amazing. It's amazing. It's amazing. It's amazing. And the other person who had something to say and we have to acknowledge her here is Dr. Ruth Westimer because we are here in honor of her. And I was thinking about preparing to interview you tonight.

So I was thinking, what does Dan Harris and Dr. Ruth Westimer have in common? And so I came up with two things. One is that she was a straight shooter. And if you have read Dan's books, if you listen to his podcast, you know that you don't mince words. You're very, very straightforward. and that she changed of course the conversation about sex sex sex and what I think that you do what I think you do so well is that you're changing the conversation about meditation meditation meditation and you have said it has a massive PR problem.

What is the PR problem that meditation has that you have sought so successfully to change? Well, I think it switched. Um, when I wrote 10% Happier 12 and a half years ago, or I think maybe just 12 years ago, uh, it was just considered considered considered uh, uh, uh, fringe hippie pursuit. Um, and I was trying to argue, no, no, there's actually a lot of data to show that it can rewire key parts of your brain, help with anxiety and depression, make you more effective at work.

Um, I think that is no longer really the issue. I think most most most do you think because of your efforts do you think that you were helpful in that? I maybe I was helpful but I do think that the primary engine for social acceptance of meditation has been the science. science. science. Um I maybe gave it a little bit of air time which was helpful but it really is the scientists who have changed the conversation. What I think the the problem now is is that most people I be I can't see you guys, but I'd be curious if if I could see you to do a a hand raising exercise, which I won't make you do because I can't see you.

Um, but most people, I suspect if I asked you who thinks meditation is good for you, most people would raise their hands. And if I said who thinks they suck at meditation, most people would also raise their hands. And that that is the problem. People think it's good. I get it. It's good for you, but I can't do it. I can't clear my mind. And so, I think most of what my job is on the planet now is to assure people that you don't have to clear your mind.

As I often joke, clearing your mind isn't is impossible unless you're enlightened or you've died. The the the goal of meditation is just to focus your mind for a few nanoseconds at a time. And then every time you get distracted, you start again and again and again. And it is that starting again. That is the practice. So the moment when you wake up from distraction, which is the moment when most people tell themselves a story that they're un incapable of meditation, that is actually proof of success.

Because what happens when you notice that you've gotten carried away is that you getting an insight into how your mind works. In other words, I don't know if I'm allowed to do this in 96 Second Street. by Oh, good. Oh, do blue here. Um, you see, oh, I'm [ __ ] crazy, right? And that's helpful because when you see that, it doesn't own you as much, right? And that, you know, the the more familiar you get with the voice in your head, with the internal chaos and cacophony, the less owned you are and yanked around by you are by all of the noise.

And so, that's what we're trying to do in meditation. And I think I think not enough people know that. You said something before that I want to just go back to just really quickly. You said the research shows that we know it's good for us and yet there's a kind of headwind that makes us not want to try again or attempt it for the first time. It's like you know how to eat better. Like sure, eat more kale, but it's really hard to do. You know to exercise more, but it's kind of a pain.

You don't want to do it. You're kind of lazy. Maybe it's just you're too busy. So I'm wondering what is that way of smoothing the path that makes people more inclined to do it? So there's the PR problem which is oh I I get it. It's good for me but like I can't do it. My mind is too busy which I think we've just fully litigated. Um the then there's the practical problem which is true of all habits uh all healthy habits which is I don't have time for it or I don't have the discipline.

Um there is a large body of research on uh what it takes for humans to change their behavior. And the bad news is it's hard. The good news is it's doable, but you just have to follow us some guidelines from and this is this is I'm speaking in generalizations. I'm actually one of those annoying people who can like uh decide I'm going to do something and then just do it which makes me really really frustrating to talk to. But for most people it's very very hard to to um establish a habit.

And so then there are some guidelines. One is make it as easy as possible. set the bar almost comically low. So with meditation it might be one minute dailyish. dailyish. dailyish. Uh and so one little rule is one little rule is um don't miss two days but you don't have to do it every day. And if you start small like that a couple of things happen. One is um you start to get some momentum. Two you start to have this story of I'm the type of person who meditates.

And this is also true for exercise. With exercise, they often say um if you're if you're having trouble starting, just putting your running shoes by the door. Yeah. Or buying workout gear. The just these little steps and then you build on each step sequentially. Couple of other little things that help piggybacking. So we all have habits that we're already doing. Hopefully brushing your teeth is a well- established habit. you can piggy back whatever new habit you want to um adopt meditation exercise on top of that.

Well, you mentioned that in meditation for fidgety skeptics. Yes. The brushing your teeth or if you're at a grocery store, you're on the line. Maybe that's my example, not yours, but you could be at a stoplight when you're driving. These micro moments can be really beneficial. beneficial. beneficial. Yes, that's slightly different. So, but but true. Um so it is true on the one hand that um you can use your existing habits to create to to uh you can draft off of them to create new ones.

But is also true that with meditation there's new research showing that uh you can get most of the benefits of a formal seated practice from free range versions of the practice. So just as you were saying if you're trying if you attempt to be mindful while you're brushing your teeth. So what does it feel like as my uh uh arm and hand are moving? What is what are the sensations in my mouth? What and then you notice when you get distracted and start again? That can um rewire uh your prefrontal cortex where the the part of the brain that's associated with attention regulation just the way formal practice would.

And so that that's really helpful to know. Same with um standing online at the grocery store instead of checking your phone. If you're just mindful of what that seeing is happening, what's the s what what's the temperature on my face right now? And then you every time you get distracted, you start again. You can do this with washing the dishes, you can do this with having a conversation, you can do this with eating. And so this is really helpful to know because then you don't actually have to fold yourself into a pretzel uh on a cushion.

I want to just zoom out just for a little bit. So, we've gotten pretty in the weeds already. And I want to just zoom out because we're here to talk about connections with other people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not just connection to ourselves. But here's the magic I feel in your work is that when we are more connected to ourselves, we are better. Yes. Yes. Yes. In relationships to other people. And I want to go back to 2014 if you don't mind just for a second. That was a big year for you.

That was the year that the book came out, 10% Happier. It was the year that Alexander, your son, was born. And I'm just curious, he never knew the other version of Dan Harris. He's only known this known this known this guy here sitting with me today. Do you think you're a different dad today because of this practice than you might have been if you didn't find meditation so many years ago? Yeah, I kind of um shudder to think actually about uh what kind of dad I would have been.

I'm not a perfect dad by any stretch. Um, as Alexander likes to let me know, but I do I have this tendency uh that that I still work with to to get angry. You know, I just have a temper. And this runs in my family. I um had a grandfather, Robert Johnson. Um not the guy who made a deal with the devil. um uh but my uh my mother's father and he was a very cranky temperamental guy and I have some of that in my system and th this practice among others really helps me ride it so that I don't act it out and lash out and I think if I would have I think I would have been controlled by these angry urges in ways that I am not really now yesterday in fact um Alexander was talking to his friend.

They I was driving Alexander and and his friend somewhere and um they were talking about what what it's like when their dads get angry and I said, "Do I get angry much?" He said, "No, but when you do, it's a little scary." And I was like, "Okay, that I don't love that when I get angry, it's a little scary, but the fact that it doesn't happen very often for me given my baseline is a huge achievement. My father was very uh short-tempered and I remember when he started sketching started sketching started sketching and he took his sketchbook with him.

So if he was getting annoyed online or something was taking too long instead of having that be something that he would then lash out, he just started drawing. Sketching and drawing can actually be very power. I have um panic disorder. Uh and um it really shows up in um enclosed spaces. I did not take the elevator tonight. Um and airplanes can be very difficult for me. And uh drawing is and I'm not even an artist, but uh drawing is very helpful. For those who are new um to you tonight, um if there's one person who is new to Dan Harris here, I I do want to go back a little bit to the story really that put you on this path.

uh you know where this is going, but there were some words that you used to describe yourself in 10% Happier and some other interviews that I've read um since then, of course, that you were snippy with colleagues, self-centered, smug, angry with producers, you threw papers in the air when you were a Cub reporter in Maine. I wrote this about myself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh and then here are things that I think many of us who are hard charging in our careers can relate to. You were perpetually concerned with career advancement.

You were mindlessly ambitious, super hard charging at the expense of everything else. Who were you close to at that time? We're talking about relationships here. How did all of that impact how you showed up in relationship to other humans at work and at home? At that period of time, I actually had a very warm group of friends. Um, and I don't think they saw this version of me. So, I think that this version of me, it it was corrosive to my work relationships, although I did have very close work relationships.

Uh, but it could it could that sort of head-long attitude um that super ambitious attitude could get in the way of my work relationships. I kind of quarantined my friend group and had uh I don't think they were none of them watched me on TV so that it it was a very separate little world and I think that was a saving grace for me um to have have have close friendships that were unrelated to this massive stressor which was work. I wonder if you were aware, likely you were, that when you were so willing to be vulnerable and authentic with what you were struggling with that it would have such ripple effects.

You uh admitted uh which I think was against some of your friends must have advised you not to admit this publicly. Uh you got involved with cocaine, ecstasy. Yeah. ecstasy. Yeah. ecstasy. Yeah. Um, and then something happened on June 7th, 2004 7th, 2004 7th, 2004 in front of 5 million people. What happened on that day? I had a panic attack. Uh, I the backstory is that I, some of you already know this, so I'll keep it quick, but I had spent a lot of time post 911 in war zones, uh, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, that kind of thing.

And, uh, came home, got depressed, didn't know I was depressed. um and then started self-medicating with recreational drugs. I I was not high on the air when I had the panic attack on Good Morning America. Um but it was um I I after I had the panic attack actually my mother was watching and she called me and said I you had a panic attack and well she's a doctor. She's a doctor was a doctor. She's retired now playing a lot of bingo. and um um um she got me in to see a psychiatrist and I actually didn't know what had caused it and the psychiatrist asked a bunch of questions and one of the questions was do you do drugs and I said yes and he I often tell this story where he kind of leaned back in his chair and gave me this shrinky look which communicated the sentiment of okay [ __ ] mystery solved and and and he explained that my drug use was even though I was not high on the air, it my ambient drug use was enough to change my brain chemistry and make it more likely for me to freak out.

So that was the time when I quit doing drugs, agreed to go see this this guy once or twice a week. I think I saw him for a decade. And it was that moment that kind of set me on the trail toward meditation. A few things before we hear from our sponsors. I've got exciting news. If you love this show, but do not love listening to the advertisements, a subscription to my app, 10% with Dan Harris, now includes a private adfree feed of the 10% Happier podcast available on whatever platform you choose, whether that's Apple podcasts, Spotify, or right inside the app itself.

Plus, along with an ad-ree listening experience, the app also gives you a growing library of meditations from world-class teachers, exclusive live stream events with me and many of our incredible instructors, and robust and supportive discussion threads where you can ask questions, share your struggles, and connect with our growing community. We've got a free 14-day trial if you want to try before you buy. Join the party. danharris.com. We'll be right back after this. So this I find very interesting. So many of the meditation teachers that you speak about are Jewish.

Yes. Yes. Yes. And we're here at the 92nd Street Y. So there are a bunch of questions I have about this that I think that you're going to be very okay with me chatting with you about. You mentioned your mom. She's not Jewish. Your dad is. You had a bar mitzvah because you wanted it. Because other kids were having it in the Boston area. Not because you were terribly religious at all. It was more of a of a of a wanted the money. Is there something about your childhood that you felt allowed you to be more open to the opportunities that you were beginning to feel meditation offered?

Is there something about my childhood that made me sort of open to more open to it? More willing to try? Was there anything that was um was there freedom in your home? There was freedom in my home, but actually everything about my childhood made me really skeptical about meditation because my parents were hippies and they had forced me to do yoga and I hated that. And I associated meditation as I think many did at this period of time with the new age. And I also found a lot of the atmospherics around meditation to be intensely annoying.

all the like stories being shared instead of told and sacred spaces and a lot of this and I I just I just I just that was a turnoff actually to you massive turnoff and uh I don't think that kind of skepticism I think it helped in telling the story but it hurt me in my own personal development because I was reflexively rejecting things for superficial reasons that that that and the story of my contemplative career is just getting over myself and seeing how wrong I was time and time again.

Well, some of the Jewish scholars that you were mentioning, Goldstein, Goldman, Kornfield, Goldman, Kornfield, Goldman, Kornfield, Saltsburg, these are all wonderful scholars and scholars and scholars and like a law firm. Yes. And then one is Joseph Goldstein. Yes. Yes. Yes. And who just spent the weekend at our house. house. house. Who is Joseph Goldstein? How did he come into your life? And um you've described him as a mench. He's incredible. Do you He's a mench. He's incredible. Do you guys know who Joseph Goldstein is? Okay.

Yeah, he's amazing. Um he uh is a is turning 82 on Wednesday. And he is um my friend Jay who's in the room has has semi semiaiciously described Joseph as the pope of Western Buddhism. He's kind of like the one of, if not the most respected western teachers of the Dharma. And uh I got connected with him. We had two mutual friends. One of them is Sam Harris, the podcaster who's I'm not related to him, but he's a good friend and he's close with Joseph and uh then uh Dr.

Mark Epstein, who's a writer and psychiatrist here in New York City, who I befriended and he the two of them introduced me to Joseph and we just really hit it off. This was in 2010, so quite a while ago. And you went on a retreat. retreat. retreat. I went on a retreat with him and um yeah, now he's we're just very close friends and he's great friends with my son and my wife and um I had an experience um on uh Thursday actually where I was telling the story backstage.

Uh I was in a very tense phone call with the editor of my next book and we were fighting about what the title was going to be. really pissed and uh I got off the phone and I was like sheet white and I went to talk to my wife which is always the thing I do when I'm freaking out and we talked a little bit but then I had to step away because I had to go record a podcast. I'm sure that podcast is not going to turn out well.

Um and then after I got out of the podcast uh both Bianca and Joseph were there and they said two things in in concert. One, you need to take a clonopin, which is a great thing to hear from your meditation teacher. teacher. teacher. Small dose. Small dose. Um, and two, uh, we advise you to capitulate. And, uh, it was really helpful to have these two incredibly forceful figures in my life. Yeah. Who get along like a house on fire, mostly in opposition to me. Um, and just, you know, the the fact that I have that I can call Joseph Goldstein when I'm freaking out, which is is not uncommon, I hate to say, is so valuable.

And he is um he's just such a thoughtful, funny, thoughtful, funny, thoughtful, funny, um, um, um, learned person. And you called him a scholar, I would say. And he is that, so you certainly weren't wrong. But he is more a well he's for for sure a teacher but I guess I think of him mostly as a practitioner practitioner practitioner since he was 20 maybe 21 so for 60 years he has been he has dedicated his life he otherwise would have been a lawyer or an architect he has brought this big brain to Buddhism and not just the study of Buddhism but the practice of it 3 months a year he's in silent meditation on retreat by himself and you're about to go on another silent retreat your longest one to date.

Yes. Yes. Not three months. I am I usually do 10 days a year with Joseph. I'm going to He last year peer pressured me into 14 days. Um but what the point I'm trying to make is that what Joseph really is is somebody who is just loves this practice, engages with it deeply himself, has spent years of his life in silent meditation on silent meditation retreats and loves to talk about it and help people upgrade their own minds. And so I'm the beneficiary of that. And what I've tried to do is to pass that along to as many other people as I can.

Well, I was really lucky uh that he wasn't on retreat when I reached out to him. him. him. So I emailed Joseph and I wanted to get his thoughts on you. [clears throat] [clears throat] Dad, do you have any more clonopin? So this is the first time you met. This is Joseph speaking. I remember him sitting toward the back of the hall asking questions that were half a challenge and half a sincere interest to understand. But what impressed me from the beginning was Dan's quick connection to the teachings and his dedication to the practice even as he encountered all the difficulties of a firsttime meditator.

And you mentioned some of those difficulties, but I wonder if what are those difficulties that you personally encountered? Was it staying on task? You had mentioned it's important to come back back back daily, if not more. So, you had a hard charging TV career. So, where was your headwind most of the time? Well, there's nothing special about me in this regard. the the the the problems that you have all experienced to the extent that you've meditated. I experienced those just mind wandering, the dealing with overwhelming emotions, the the planning of a homicide, whatever, just like random thoughts and powerful emotions and um you know on retreat, which you don't have to do in order to be a good meditator, but it can be a great thing to do on retreat.

A lot of boredom and loneliness and loneliness and loneliness and so just the stuff of an average human mind. Um, but I was really convinced from the first time I sat down to meditate that this is not like hackysack, you know, this is not like a hippie pastime. Although I actually read today that young people, non-hippies are really getting into hackysack these days. days. days. I have to not use that joke anymore. Um the I just knew from the first time I in the summer of 2009 that I sat down to meditate.

I set an alarm on my Blackberry for 5 minutes and I just knew right away this is exercise for the brain. brain. brain. Yeah. And um [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] yeah, I've just had an unwavering commitment since then based on just personal interest and personal suffering wanting to I've had anxiety and depression since I was a little boy. Often people say to me as they get to know me if when I'm making friends, "Wow, you're really anxious for a meditation guy." And I'm like, "You have the causality wrong." Um, this I'm my interest is really driven by my own uh tendency to toward despair and fear.

And over time, as those tendencies have gotten better, although they they do come back, um the motivation has switched toward wanting to help other people with their own um anxiety and anger and anguish. Well, you're going to help us here tonight. We may not have all the same uh haunts. haunts. haunts. We all have some haunts. They're just different haunts. And what I really appreciate about your work is that meditation doesn't look the same for everybody. Not only is it a different quantity of time that might work, you can go on a walking meditation.

You can do a guided meditation where you're listening to the 10% Happier app. You can do it on your own. You like that plug? That was good. Um, you you you can do that do that do that wherever you get your apps. You can do it that way. And one of the meditations that I particularly appreciated in light of this series connected lives, which I loved learning about from you, is that it puts you in place of relationships. So, you're not alone being completely internally focused.

just to step back because you you raised something earlier and I don't think I gave it uh my full attention. attention. attention. Okay. Okay. Okay. The the uh interaction between inner work and how you are in the world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just this I think is um an overlooked um phenomenon. The the way and I'm responsible for this uh to a certain extent. the way meditation is often talked about as a solo pursuit and an internal internal internal um exercise. Um but the the point isn't to as as um Joseph's close friend and and collaborator Sharon Gold Sharon Salsberg often says the point is not to become a better meditator.

It's to become a better person. And I don't think that is emphasized enough. And again I take responsibility for that. Um I think of that's actually the reason why I was so happy that you said yes because I see what you've just said which is that by working on ourselves that's actually why in the joy of connections when Dr. Ruth, we were putting together the book. There are five components and self came first. came first. came first. Yes. Yes. Yes. Self working on yourself, being kind of more aware of your own actions and your behaviors.

Self is first. It helps set you up for deepening and nurturing and making better all the connections. Yes. But self help without thinking about other people is just selfish. And I think and it's also just stupid because we if you think about evolution the we evolve to need other people. Right now we're in a culture that militates against social connection at every turn uh through individualism and of course through technology. It is not a coincidence in my opinion that we are seeing unprecedented levels of anxiety, depression, suicide addiction and loneliness.

loneliness. loneliness. So the I'm all for self-help or self-care, but the point, yes, is to have more bandwidth to relate to other people more successfully. Not in a finger waggy you you should be a good person way, but because your relationships will dictate your happiness. This is an upward spiral that is available to all of us. Uh just to step back, I think most of us live in a downward spiral much of the time. We are kicking our own asses and that impacts our relationships because relationships are the most important variable in human flourishing.

We feel even worse. Our relationships get even worse. And a friend of mine calls this the toilet vortex. vortex. vortex. There is this upward spiral where you you take care of your own mind. That improves your relationships. Your inner weather gets even bumier. Your relationships improve even uh even more. And up you go. And I'm not saying you you you you will and I certainly am not always on the upward spiral. I have my bad days. Um but you want to be like upward spiral ready.

Yes. And I think and I actually think you can start on either side. Self taking care of your own mind is a great way to get access to the upward spiral. But you can also just start by um being um kind and generous with other people. that will make you feel good. Now, it's a tricky balance because you if you focus too much on yourself, your relationships will suffer. And if you focus too much on other people, you may forget yourself. The Tibetan Buddhists call that idiot compassion.

So, this is this is an art. This is an art and a science actually kind of at the same time. A lot of us, myself included, are worried about how AI is going to impact us when it comes to our work lives. There are a lot of things that AI can genuinely replace. And I get that that's scary for a lot of us. But one thing that AI cannot replace is teamwork. And in my experience, working effectively in teams is the key to success. Which brings me to one of our sponsors today, Notion, which is an AI powered workspace that enables human collaboration.

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Learn more about how Notion can support your business at notion.com/happier. notion.com/happier. notion.com/happier. That's all lowercase letters notion.com/happier notion.com/happier notion.com/happier to try notion today. And when you use our link, you are supporting our show. I think what I find so powerful is that it puts you instantly this compassion in community. Yes. And we know, quoting other research, that when you say hello to the person making your coffee or when you pick up your dry cleaning and you take your AirPods out and you have a moment of humanity, of humanity, of humanity, it helps you feel in place that you belong to something larger than yourself.

this compassion practice. Yes. I was so for so much of my life just so self-centered and just kind of in a in my own little rut and groove and and pursuing my own agenda and like there's just there's a time and place for all of that. I'm not trying to um be overly self-critical, but I found that through doing high doses of this practice over the years um has really just kind of like my factory settings are at Frosty New Englander. And it's just warmed me up.

And you're absolutely right. There's a ton of data that shows that these so-called micro interactions um are a potent source of happiness. And like when you ignore the possibility of just these tiny little moments of interaction with the people you are encountering all day long, you're kind of like metaphorically speaking leaving money on the table happiness-wise. Um, and you know, I think just being on the lookout for that is a really powerful little practice and this underlying practice of meta can really prime you to do it.

do it. do it. So when you blow past your door man, you don't say hello. Yes. When you don't engage at all perhaps with your Uber driver, does the opening up of that opportunity make you experience your world? Does it change your body? Does it change how you relate to yourself? Does it make you happier? Does it make you 10% happier? How does it make you feel inside? And then how does it all kind of work together in this wonderful stew that you're um telling us that we should embrace embrace embrace it?

I'll just tell you for me it just um it's just a much happier way to live. Um I'll give you a story because I have panic disorder. um I am, you know, often kind of at other people's mercy, you know, or I need help, you know, and um that's I don't love being in that position, but um having some a more open friendly attitude has allowed me to get some support in moments when I need it. And the little story to uh on this tip, uh I was uh one I I sometimes record my podcast at a studio in the in New York City.

Mostly I record from home and one day I was at the studio. It was my first time at this particular studio and I had all my luggage with me. Um and I was I walked in the building and I looked at the elevator and it was very small elevator and I just it it was my mind was like this not today. Like I can't do this today. And um um um I was kind of just staring at the elevator for Lornley and I turned to the security guard and said, "Can I walk?" And he was like, "It's 16 flights." And I said, "Can I walk?

Can you just would you take this up to the 16th floor?" And he got up, put his jacket on and said, "I'm going to ride with you. I'm going to hold your hand." And we rode to the 16th floor. His name is Barry. B A R I. He's an uh immigrant from East Africa. and uh it worked and I ride the elevator with him every time I go go go and um like that kind of openness has been a huge boon for me personally. personally. personally.

I love that. Thank you for sharing that story. I uh I want to switch gears just for a moment before I take these questions. questions. questions. One part of your work that I really do find to be so impactful is and you hit on it a little bit about the stories that we tell ourselves. Um you famously have said, you know, the the voice in your head is an [ __ ] Um but here are some things that I think that people ruminate over. ruminate over. ruminate over.

I will never find love. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone's career is awesome. I'll never catch up. catch up. catch up. I'm too fat. I'm too short. I'm too tall. I'm too ugly. I'm not enough. We all have that gnawing at us. And how do we stop the [ __ ] voice in our heads? How does this practice that you're talking about nip that in the bud so you can then reorient your thinking and invest in your relationships that we were just talking about? I don't believe in silver bullets but I think there are several modalities that you can bring to bear here.

One is mindfulness where you just learn to spot that this is happening um and not take it so seriously but this is a slow process. Um second warming up your inner atmosphere through practices like meta can also help change how you relate to yourself. But I think the shortcut, the most powerful practice is something called self-compassion. It's invented by a woman named Kristen Nef, who's a psychological researcher at the University of Texas. I believe she should be considered a world historic figure for not only naming this inner capacity, but but also developing practices that help you build it and and then studying the impact of these practices and and the results are incredible.

So, if you're in these, I'm unlovable. I don't like the way I look in the mirror. Um, my career is [ __ ] If you're in one of these, if you're in this kind of toilet vortex, she has this little practice that you don't need to sit on a cushion to do. You can do it right there in the moment. One is just notice it's happening. Not hard to do. Just notice. All right. Yeah, I'm kicking my own ass. Two, and you can skip one and two. The the third step is the most important.

Two is [snorts] just to call to just to bring to mind like this is normal. There's a lie we tell ourselves when we're in um a self- flagagulation mode which is I'm the only one with this problem. But mathematically when you just consider it millions of other people are dealing with whatever you're dealing with right now. now. now. The third step is just to talk to yourself the way you would talk to a good friend. We all have this capacity to be great friends, great mentors, great parents, great uncles and aunts.

When when somebody we love is having problems, we know how to talk to them. You, and this is incredibly good news, like you can channel that capacity and direct it toward yourself. Uh, and there's a ton of research to show that it really works. Two things that the research shows will supercharge it. one, and I hate to say this, putting your hand on your heart, which is cheesy as [ __ ] will actually help. So, I don't like to have see anybody I don't like to have anybody see me doing it, but like when I'm about to get on a plane, it's like, bro, you're good.

Like, you're not going to you're you're fine. Like, you're this is not a life and death or death situation. You're good. The other thing that really helps and I you just heard me do it although I didn't name it is talking to yourself with the third person in the third person. So this is called distanced self-t talk. So using your own name or bro dude whatever sweetie. Um I I don't do use sweetie. Um you might do whatever works for you. um that this has been shown to really help the the words land.

So again, there's no silver bullet. These moments suck. And there's also a great question that Joseph recommended to you, if I remember this correctly. Is this useful? Yeah, that's really helpful, too. I love that one. This is a little bit more for sort of anxiety when you are in the throws of worrying about something over and over. This actually Joseph was writing about the first time we met um and or describing it to you and I was on a meditation retreat with him and I was sitting in the back of the hall asking obnoxious questions.

One of the obnoxious questions I asked was on the pen penultimate day of the retreat he said something to the effect of you may find your mind uh ranging off to like the things you have to do when you get home. Try to avoid that or try to be mindful of when it happens and don't go down that road. And I was like, "Well, dude, if I miss my flight, that has real consequences. Am I not correct to worry about that?" And he said, "Sure, but on the 85th time, maybe ask yourself the question, is this useful?" And that is so helpful for anxiety.

anxiety. anxiety. These are some questions um from the audience. So, thank you for writing them so beautifully and legibly, I might add. Um, how do you cope, Dan, when anxiety feels overwhelming? feels overwhelming? feels overwhelming? How do I what? How do you cope when anxiety feels overwhelming? overwhelming? overwhelming? Yeah, look, I I made the joke about clonopin earlier. Um, but I do think for some of us, medication is really important. I'm I'm I I want to be hes I'm very careful [clears throat] around a a medication like clonopin uh which can be viciously addictive.

So, I think you have to be you want to be talking to your doctor and be very cautious about this type of stuff. But, you know, there's certain SSRIs or anti-anxiet anti- um uh depressants can be really helpful for anxiety as well. So, just talking to your doctor about the medical options I think is a really smart move. As you will see, I'm going to list a bunch of things because I believe with anxiety, you got to you got to pull every possible lever you can.

Um, the most powerful lever I pull, and this was reflected in the story I told about what happened on Thursday after my editor was mad at me, is um, other people. people. people. There's a great expression, never worry alone. Um, and so when I have a problem, I talk to my wife, and if she's not available, I talk to Joseph or um, anybody who will [ __ ] listen, you know? Don't suffer in silence. Um, we we again this is this is basic evolution. We got to the top of the food chain not because we obviously don't have wings or talons or sharp teeth.

We got to the top of the food chain because of our ability to cooperate and collaborate. And so use that to your advantage. And and notice how when you don't get that stuff, even if you're an introvert, you you still need it. you just need less. Um when you don't get the appropriate amount of social interaction, you wither. Um, meta meta meditation according to the ancient Buddhist um, texts was developed as a kind of anti-anxiety medication um, by the Buddha who had a bunch of monks practicing in in the remote forest and they were freaked out by the local forest spirits and he invented this practice as a way to counteract fear.

I know you're going to like this next question, which is the world is a tough place right now and this all feels really self-indulgent. really self-indulgent. really self-indulgent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this feels like there are bigger issues. issues. issues. Yeah. How do you want to deal with those issues from a place of anger and um overwhelm and bitterness and hatred? Do you think that's the most effective way to deal with them? Go for it. Try it. See how it works. Um I in my experience don't think that's the the best way to operate is is car I think the question is is carving out this time for this type of practice is that self-indulgent when the world is facing so many like should our time be used differently I don't think it's mutually exclusive okay I think taking five minutes one minute minute minute to take care of your own mind so that you can respond to the many emergencies of the world more effectively is is is uh being a good citizen.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's I often say a geopolitical case for you to get your [ __ ] together. Um and the point of this is not so that you're off in some self-indulgent bliss bubble. The point of this is so that you can engage what uh Joseph Campbell says, engage joyfully in the sorrows of the world. That's the point here. Um, Um, Um, and and honestly, there's something really strange about what I'm about to say. say. say. When you're engaged in compassionate action, action, action, it's uplifting.

it's uplifting. it's uplifting. Um Um Um there's something I find really annoying about the response to and I see it in myself uh the response to the many tr I mean I'm worried about all the thing same things you're worried about AI the the potential demise of our democracy uh climate change um uh uh war on and on and on but performative misery is not helping anyone helping anyone helping anyone compassion Getting compassion Getting compassion Getting involved does two things. One, it absorbs your anxiety because it gives you a sense of agency.

And two, it feels good. And that's okay. Miserable people don't tend to change the world for the better. Happy, joyful, engaged, energetic people can make change. So, this is the opposite of self-indulgent. I love that. And how young There's a question about kids. How young is too young? young? young? Well, preschoolers can be taught these practices. I uh as a parent uh recommend caution with your own children. Uh I think it's great if the teachers in the school are teaching it. Um but I find that children, you may have noticed, are uh genetically engineered to reject any suggestion you might have for them.

So I never try to get my son to meditate. My son travels with me all over the world to give speeches and stuff like that. He could give my speech, but he actually he's usually on his iPad while I'm giving my speech. Um, but he, you know, I've never asked him to meditate. I, you know, I I I believe uh what's the Well, you don't want to be a meditation bully. bully. bully. You don't want to be a bully. Also, there's a there's a great new um great cartoon in the New Yorker had two women having lunch.

It depicted two women having lunch and one of them says to the the other, "I've been gluten-free for a week and I'm already annoying." That can happen with meditation people. I did it to my wife for many years. My medit my wife didn't meditate because I was so annoying at the beginning. And so this can really be triply dangerous with kids. So I I say if you want a mindful kid, you got to be a mindful parent. You got to model for them the behavior you want to see.

One off-topic question on this. It's not about kids. Um, it's on topic of course for this whole discussion, but I was really pleasantly surprised with what you've just done on your app. You just ended sleep week and [clears throat] we haven't talked about sleep in its impact on your ability to show up in relationships or to do this work that you're talking about. Why did you do sleepw week on your app and why is sleep so important? so important? so important? People like sleep meditations and we wanted to give it to them answer.

But of course, sleep is I as I often say is like the apex predator of healthy habits. Like you nothing works without sleep. Yeah. So, So, So, you know, meditation can be very helpful for sleep, but there are lots of other things you can do and we can get into if you want. you want. you want. I mean, I think a lot of people struggle with sleep. Is there one or two tips that you want to share with us tonight? I think that's a big problem.

I struggled with um I was diagnosed last year with the dumbest syndrome, dumbest sounding syndrome you can have. Restless leg syndrome. So embarrassing. Anyway, it destroyed my life for 15 years. It was ter That's an overstatement. It degraded my life for 15 years. It was terrible. Um and you know who diagnosed it? AI. it? AI. it? AI. I was complaining about it to doctors for years. They didn't pick it up and I complained to chat GBT, another person I never worry alone with when nobody else will listen to me.

I talk to uh I uh and it picked it up and uh so so if you have restless leg syndrome, there are medical things you can do, but for for average insomnia, a couple things. Um uh Um uh Um uh it helps it helps to have a windown routine. routine. routine. Yeah. Um, so mine is I do 15 minutes of walking meditation, take a hot shower, and in the hot shower I list all the good things that happen that day, then I get into bed. Um, keeping the room cool uh is is very helpful.

Body that part of the warm shower also like uh um gets your body temperature down afterwards when you're um towing off. Um and then the cool room keeps your core temperature low. Um uh sunlight first thing in the morning can be very helpful. Um, and then, uh, I find a crucial hack is when you can't sleep, using self-compassion, talking to yourself the way you would talk to a little kid. Actually, when I was a little kid, and I would say to my dad, I can't sleep, he would say, bend over and run as fast as you can into the wall.

So, So, So, don't don't do that. Um, but when I can't sleep and I'm I'm like, yeah, that tells you a lot about how I develop my sense of humor. Um, when I can't sleep and I'm proverating like I'm I'm making all these projections into how bad the next day is going to be. It's no, It's no, It's no, first of all, get out of bed. You don't want to teach the brain that the bed is a place for struggle. So, I get out of bed, read a book, watch TV, do some more meditation.

And I just I just I I say to myself, look, you've had a million sleepless nights and the next day has always been fine. You can handle this. Don't worry about it. And that really the combination of getting out of bed and talking myself off the ledge helps me fall back to sleep. Thank you for sharing that. I I think when I go to sleep, when you say, "What are the good things that were in your day?" I think this will be on my list. Dan really meeting you is just such an extraordinary gift and I thank you so much.

I want to um towards the end just give you a little housekeeping and then I do want to um finish up with two surprises surprises surprises for Dan. Uh the housekeeping piece is that after we are done here now there is a reception as space allows for us to go to immediately afterward. uh the joy of connections and of course DAM books are for sale as well. We really hope that you um get your books and get them signed and you're staying. Yes, that's fantastic and um and again thank you.

I do enjoy with connected lives getting to know the folks who I interview and in doing that I do enjoy reaching out to people who are close to you and uh one of your dear friends is Bob Woodruff and Lee Woodruff and Bob and Lee introduced you to your wife Bianca and Bob for you who don't know him as a wonderful human and uh he was also at ABC News for a long time. And you met him in Pakistan, I think, when you were overseas. I did.

I did. So, he's known you before meditation and after, after, after, which makes me dread this video or whatever it is. Yeah. I just have a quote from Bob. Okay, good. Fine. Better. So, this is from Bob Woodruff. I never personally witnessed Dan being an [ __ ] an [ __ ] an [ __ ] as he describes himself. I always had a lot of fun with him and he was a smart, good, supportive colleague. Not always something that you find in TV, but in the TV world, especially with anchors like Dan, narcissism and ego are pretty common.

Dan has become the kind of friend people listen to and want to be around. That's very kind. He uh uh he was quite uh unfortunately famous for having um been hit by a bomb in Iraq. U nearly died, very nearly died. And after um the traumatic brain injury set me up with my wife and um as I was leaving the gym to go to my first date with Bianca in 2006, he called me and said, "Dude, she's hot. So, speaking of Bianca, yeah, yeah, yeah, I did reach out to your wife.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Do you know this? No. No. No. Did she tell you? No. No. No. Oh, good, good, good, good, good. Okay, so this is from your wife. She did give me a big hug before I left the house and made me think now maybe she was buttering me up or something. Yeah. something. Yeah. something. Yeah. Okay. It's hard to imagine someone more doggedly committed to self-improvement than you. than you. than you. The reality is that you never really needed this extensive of an overhaul.

But I would be remiss to not acknowledge my good fortune as a direct beneficiary of a more expansive you. Importantly, Importantly, Importantly, your gift shows up outside of our home in the many ways you let humanity know that we are not alone in our suffering and stories and stories and stories with love and gratitude your better half. And then she ends because you still need to be kept on your toes. Yes. Yes. So on behalf of all of us, Dan Harris, I am so honored that you came, that you accepted my invitation.

And can we all please thank Dan Harris, thank you. thank you. thank you. Thank you. Great job. Thank you so much. Thank you so much to everybody who works so hard to make this show. 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the great indie rock band Islands wrote our theme. One last thing I want to say before you go.

If you enjoy this show, please do me/ us a solid. Follow the show and leave a rating and a review on whatever platform you watch or listen to us on. It only takes a minute. It's free and it really helps new people find us and spread the good news that the mind is trainable. Thank you. Sincerely, I mean it. Thank you.