Science of Attraction, Compatibility & Romance | Dr. Paul Eastwick

When you look at who gets the right When you look at who gets the right swipes and who receives messages on the swipes and who receives messages on the swipes and who receives messages on the apps, it's the most popular people. I apps, it's the most popular people. I apps, it's the most popular people. I mean, folks have claimed that it's one mean, folks have claimed that it's one mean, folks have claimed that it's one of the most unequal markets in the of the most unequal markets in the of the most unequal markets in the world, but regular acquaintance is not world, but regular acquaintance is not world, but regular acquaintance is not nearly so dramatic. I don't think the nearly so dramatic. I don't think the nearly so dramatic. I don't think the influence of attractiveness ever goes influence of attractiveness ever goes influence of attractiveness ever goes away, right? There's always going to be away, right? There's always going to be away, right? There's always going to be an unlevel playing field to some extent, an unlevel playing field to some extent, an unlevel playing field to some extent, but the more that people spend time but the more that people spend time but the more that people spend time together getting to know each other, it together getting to know each other, it together getting to know each other, it reduces some of those market forces that reduces some of those market forces that reduces some of those market forces that give the desirable people all the give the desirable people all the give the desirable people all the advantages. advantages. advantages. Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and where we discuss science and where we discuss science and science-based [music] tools for everyday science-based [music] tools for everyday science-based [music] tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and opthalmology at of neurobiology and opthalmology at of neurobiology and opthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest Stanford School of Medicine. My guest Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Paul Eastwick, a professor today is Dr. Paul Eastwick, a professor today is Dr. Paul Eastwick, a professor of psychology at the University of of psychology at the University of of psychology at the University of California, Davis. Today we discuss the California, Davis. Today we discuss the California, Davis. Today we discuss the science of attraction, mate selection, science of attraction, mate selection, science of attraction, mate selection, and relationships. And I promise you and relationships. And I promise you and relationships. And I promise you what you are going to hear will surprise what you are going to hear will surprise what you are going to hear will surprise you. Paul's research has discovered that you. Paul's research has discovered that you. Paul's research has discovered that much of what you've heard about how much of what you've heard about how much of what you've heard about how people select partners, date, form people select partners, date, form people select partners, date, form relationships, even break up or relationships, even break up or relationships, even break up or repartner is simply wrong. At least when repartner is simply wrong. At least when repartner is simply wrong. At least when you look at the actual data. For you look at the actual data. For you look at the actual data. For example, his data show that both men and example, his data show that both men and example, his data show that both men and women when given a choice select women when given a choice select women when given a choice select partners that are younger than them. partners that are younger than them. partners that are younger than them. Yes, you heard that right. It's not just Yes, you heard that right. It's not just Yes, you heard that right. It's not just men. Men and women equally select men. Men and women equally select men. Men and women equally select partners that are younger than them partners that are younger than them partners that are younger than them given the choice. His data also given the choice. His data also given the choice. His data also challenged the idea that financial challenged the idea that financial challenged the idea that financial status is more important to women when status is more important to women when status is more important to women when looking for male partners. Turns out looking for male partners. Turns out looking for male partners. Turns out that when men are looking for female that when men are looking for female that when men are looking for female partners, on average, financial status partners, on average, financial status partners, on average, financial status is as important as it is when women are is as important as it is when women are is as important as it is when women are looking for men. And somewhat less looking for men. And somewhat less looking for men. And somewhat less surprising, his work shows that indeed surprising, his work shows that indeed surprising, his work shows that indeed dating apps select for qualities that dating apps select for qualities that dating apps select for qualities that are not the ones that research shows are not the ones that research shows are not the ones that research shows builds lasting partnerships. But he also builds lasting partnerships. But he also builds lasting partnerships. But he also offers solutions to those that are using offers solutions to those that are using offers solutions to those that are using dating apps to try and find a partner. dating apps to try and find a partner. dating apps to try and find a partner. Today's discussion is not just about Today's discussion is not just about Today's discussion is not just about finding a partner. It's also about what finding a partner. It's also about what finding a partner. It's also about what solidifies and maintains healthy solidifies and maintains healthy solidifies and maintains healthy relationships over time. Again, what the relationships over time. Again, what the relationships over time. Again, what the data say about that. Things like data say about that. Things like data say about that. Things like physical intimacy being among the very physical intimacy being among the very physical intimacy being among the very strongest predictors of relationship strongest predictors of relationship strongest predictors of relationship stability. As well as both partners stability. As well as both partners stability. As well as both partners feeling that no matter who else might be feeling that no matter who else might be feeling that no matter who else might be attractive to them, that their partner attractive to them, that their partner attractive to them, that their partner has unique qualities that no one else has unique qualities that no one else has unique qualities that no one else can match. So whether you are in a can match. So whether you are in a can match. So whether you are in a relationship or not, looking for a relationship or not, looking for a relationship or not, looking for a relationship or not, today's discussion relationship or not, today's discussion relationship or not, today's discussion gets into social bonding of all sorts gets into social bonding of all sorts gets into social bonding of all sorts and repeatedly throughout today's and repeatedly throughout today's and repeatedly throughout today's episode both as it relates to single episode both as it relates to single episode both as it relates to single people looking for a partner, people who people looking for a partner, people who people looking for a partner, people who are already partnered, we talk about the are already partnered, we talk about the are already partnered, we talk about the importance of activities that are done importance of activities that are done importance of activities that are done with other people, could be other with other people, could be other with other people, could be other couples or other single people, etc. And couples or other single people, etc. And couples or other single people, etc. And that this is critical for those wanting that this is critical for those wanting that this is critical for those wanting to meet a partner and it turns out to be to meet a partner and it turns out to be to meet a partner and it turns out to be critical for maintaining a healthy critical for maintaining a healthy critical for maintaining a healthy long-term relationship. We'll talk about long-term relationship. We'll talk about long-term relationship. We'll talk about what the data say about that. Super what the data say about that. Super what the data say about that. Super interesting. So today is not just about interesting. So today is not just about interesting. So today is not just about the real data of how people rate the real data of how people rate the real data of how people rate attractiveness, find partners, and the attractiveness, find partners, and the attractiveness, find partners, and the glue that keeps people happily together. glue that keeps people happily together. glue that keeps people happily together. It's about the real life data and the It's about the real life data and the It's about the real life data and the actions that anyone can take that help actions that anyone can take that help actions that anyone can take that help you build and sustain excellent romantic you build and sustain excellent romantic you build and sustain excellent romantic and other types of relationships. Before and other types of relationships. Before and other types of relationships. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that we begin, I'd like to emphasize that we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my this podcast is separate from my this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. teaching and research roles at Stanford. teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however part of my desire and It is however part of my desire and It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer effort to bring zero cost to consumer effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science information about science and science information about science and science related tools to the general public. In related tools to the general public. In related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode keeping with that theme, today's episode keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my does include sponsors. And now for my does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Paul Eastwick. Dr. discussion with Dr. Paul Eastwick. Dr. discussion with Dr. Paul Eastwick. Dr. Paul Eastwick, welcome. Paul Eastwick, welcome. Paul Eastwick, welcome. >> Thank you so much for having me. A lot >> Thank you so much for having me. A lot >> Thank you so much for having me. A lot of theories out there, a lot of of theories out there, a lot of of theories out there, a lot of speculation about attraction, dating, speculation about attraction, dating, speculation about attraction, dating, romance, and relationships, which are romance, and relationships, which are romance, and relationships, which are separable things. Of course, we'll talk separable things. Of course, we'll talk separable things. Of course, we'll talk about all of them. But one of the about all of them. But one of the about all of them. But one of the semi-dominant themes in the public semi-dominant themes in the public semi-dominant themes in the public narrative and indeed on many podcasts is narrative and indeed on many podcasts is narrative and indeed on many podcasts is is kind of anchoring to evolutionary is kind of anchoring to evolutionary is kind of anchoring to evolutionary theory which to put it really coarsely theory which to put it really coarsely theory which to put it really coarsely sort of a market-based theory. You know sort of a market-based theory. You know sort of a market-based theory. You know people even say I married up or uh you people even say I married up or uh you people even say I married up or uh you know and people but quantitative know and people but quantitative know and people but quantitative measures on people they're a six they're measures on people they're a six they're measures on people they're a six they're a seven they're a 10 in this but a four a seven they're a 10 in this but a four a seven they're a 10 in this but a four in that. You know, as a neuroscientist, in that. You know, as a neuroscientist, in that. You know, as a neuroscientist, I hear that and I immediately go to, and I hear that and I immediately go to, and I hear that and I immediately go to, and again, this is just purely theoretical. again, this is just purely theoretical. again, this is just purely theoretical. >> Oh, this sounds very limbic. This is >> Oh, this sounds very limbic. This is >> Oh, this sounds very limbic. This is very much of like the hypothalamus. This very much of like the hypothalamus. This very much of like the hypothalamus. This is very much like the kind of thing that is very much like the kind of thing that is very much like the kind of thing that you might expect under conditions of you might expect under conditions of you might expect under conditions of like um low food availability, like um low food availability, like um low food availability, >> low mate availability, a lot of weapons >> low mate availability, a lot of weapons >> low mate availability, a lot of weapons and a few and very few laws, you know, and a few and very few laws, you know, and a few and very few laws, you know, to to regulate violence or something. to to regulate violence or something. to to regulate violence or something. Meaning men will will harm each other in Meaning men will will harm each other in Meaning men will will harm each other in order to get access to mates. women will order to get access to mates. women will order to get access to mates. women will um be deceptive. This is the whole idea. um be deceptive. This is the whole idea. um be deceptive. This is the whole idea. And you step back and you go, well, And you step back and you go, well, And you step back and you go, well, that's not the world we live in now. We that's not the world we live in now. We that's not the world we live in now. We have a forebrain. We can make choices. have a forebrain. We can make choices. have a forebrain. We can make choices. We can be strategic in the direction of We can be strategic in the direction of We can be strategic in the direction of benevolence. We can think about benevolence. We can think about benevolence. We can think about kindness. And so to me, it seems we need kindness. And so to me, it seems we need kindness. And so to me, it seems we need a revision or at least a better a revision or at least a better a revision or at least a better understanding of what's actually true in understanding of what's actually true in understanding of what's actually true in 2026 and forward. So, if you would, what 2026 and forward. So, if you would, what 2026 and forward. So, if you would, what are your thoughts about what is not true are your thoughts about what is not true are your thoughts about what is not true based on the data based on the data based on the data >> and perhaps what is true about this >> and perhaps what is true about this >> and perhaps what is true about this quote unquote evolutionary model of quote unquote evolutionary model of quote unquote evolutionary model of dating relationships and so on. The dating relationships and so on. The dating relationships and so on. The marketplace ideas, I think they marketplace ideas, I think they marketplace ideas, I think they definitely have their place and it deres definitely have their place and it deres definitely have their place and it deres from a a sensible evolutionary from a a sensible evolutionary from a a sensible evolutionary perspective like what you're describing. perspective like what you're describing. perspective like what you're describing. I think it describes well what happens I think it describes well what happens I think it describes well what happens in initial attraction settings when in initial attraction settings when in initial attraction settings when people are really meeting for the first people are really meeting for the first people are really meeting for the first time. There's this class demo that I do time. There's this class demo that I do time. There's this class demo that I do in my undergraduate classes. A lot of in my undergraduate classes. A lot of in my undergraduate classes. A lot of people use this demo and what you do is people use this demo and what you do is people use this demo and what you do is you have a bunch of your students put a you have a bunch of your students put a you have a bunch of your students put a number on their foreheads and they sort number on their foreheads and they sort number on their foreheads and they sort of hold it up so that they can't see it of hold it up so that they can't see it of hold it up so that they can't see it but other people can. and you tell the but other people can. and you tell the but other people can. and you tell the students your goal is to pair up with students your goal is to pair up with students your goal is to pair up with the highest value person that you can the highest value person that you can the highest value person that you can and you don't know what your number is, and you don't know what your number is, and you don't know what your number is, but I'm going to count to five and then but I'm going to count to five and then but I'm going to count to five and then I want you all to stroll around the room I want you all to stroll around the room I want you all to stroll around the room and try to make mating offers to folks. and try to make mating offers to folks. and try to make mating offers to folks. And what you see is that the people who And what you see is that the people who And what you see is that the people who have been randomly assigned a low have been randomly assigned a low have been randomly assigned a low number, they start to panic because what number, they start to panic because what number, they start to panic because what happens is that nobody will talk to happens is that nobody will talk to happens is that nobody will talk to them. them. them. >> And this is random. uh you know >> And this is random. uh you know >> And this is random. uh you know otherwise it would be very unethical and otherwise it would be very unethical and otherwise it would be very unethical and also who would decide but also who would decide but also who would decide but >> but people don't like it. I mean if you >> but people don't like it. I mean if you >> but people don't like it. I mean if you get a low number get a low number get a low number >> it's not an enjoyable experience >> it's not an enjoyable experience >> it's not an enjoyable experience >> and I think there is a parallel to what >> and I think there is a parallel to what >> and I think there is a parallel to what people are experiencing as they're people are experiencing as they're people are experiencing as they're growing up or maybe even if they're a growing up or maybe even if they're a growing up or maybe even if they're a little older and they're going to a little older and they're going to a little older and they're going to a party and they haven't met anybody party and they haven't met anybody party and they haven't met anybody there. So this is an analogy there. So this is an analogy there. So this is an analogy for how people internalize and you know for how people internalize and you know for how people internalize and you know act upon something that we call mate act upon something that we call mate act upon something that we call mate value and it's it's like what you value and it's it's like what you value and it's it's like what you describe. It's supposedly linked to describe. It's supposedly linked to describe. It's supposedly linked to traits that reflect your core traits that reflect your core traits that reflect your core desiraability like maybe your physical desiraability like maybe your physical desiraability like maybe your physical attractiveness but it could be other attractiveness but it could be other attractiveness but it could be other related traits too. It could be things related traits too. It could be things related traits too. It could be things like the size of your bank account or like the size of your bank account or like the size of your bank account or your status. your status. your status. What we tend to see is that when people What we tend to see is that when people What we tend to see is that when people are meeting for the first time, this is are meeting for the first time, this is are meeting for the first time, this is um a reasonable faximile of how people um a reasonable faximile of how people um a reasonable faximile of how people behave. behave. behave. But interesting things tend to happen But interesting things tend to happen But interesting things tend to happen when people get to know each other over when people get to know each other over when people get to know each other over a little bit more time. What then tends a little bit more time. What then tends a little bit more time. What then tends to happen is that that agreement that is to happen is that that agreement that is to happen is that that agreement that is required for that study to work. That required for that study to work. That required for that study to work. That study only works because you can read study only works because you can read study only works because you can read the numbers on people's foreheads. But the numbers on people's foreheads. But the numbers on people's foreheads. But if I were to blur that number, we if I were to blur that number, we if I were to blur that number, we wouldn't see as much pairing up. It wouldn't see as much pairing up. It wouldn't see as much pairing up. It wouldn't be as sad and as difficult for wouldn't be as sad and as difficult for wouldn't be as sad and as difficult for the people with low numbers. And in real the people with low numbers. And in real the people with low numbers. And in real life, that's kind of what tends to life, that's kind of what tends to life, that's kind of what tends to happen. We stop agreeing about who the happen. We stop agreeing about who the happen. We stop agreeing about who the eights are and who the fives are. And eights are and who the fives are. And eights are and who the fives are. And people might on average say that you're people might on average say that you're people might on average say that you're a six, but if I've gotten to know you a six, but if I've gotten to know you a six, but if I've gotten to know you over time, it means there's a chance I over time, it means there's a chance I over time, it means there's a chance I think you're a nine. There's also a think you're a nine. There's also a think you're a nine. There's also a chance I think you're a three. And so chance I think you're a three. And so chance I think you're a three. And so that increase in idiosyncrasy and that increase in idiosyncrasy and that increase in idiosyncrasy and variability, I think, is a really variability, I think, is a really variability, I think, is a really fortunate thing. And it's the thing fortunate thing. And it's the thing fortunate thing. And it's the thing that's going to allow a lot of partners that's going to allow a lot of partners that's going to allow a lot of partners to find each other uh even if they're to find each other uh even if they're to find each other uh even if they're not consensually the most desirable not consensually the most desirable not consensually the most desirable people. Consensually meaning in the eyes people. Consensually meaning in the eyes people. Consensually meaning in the eyes of others. of others. of others. >> Right. Right. Right. Right. So even if >> Right. Right. Right. Right. So even if >> Right. Right. Right. Right. So even if on average people think uh you're kind on average people think uh you're kind on average people think uh you're kind of middling with enough time people are of middling with enough time people are of middling with enough time people are more likely to find okay but okay you more likely to find okay but okay you more likely to find okay but okay you all think I'm a five but she thinks I'm all think I'm a five but she thinks I'm all think I'm a five but she thinks I'm a 10. And then what you're kind of a 10. And then what you're kind of a 10. And then what you're kind of crossing your fingers for are these crossing your fingers for are these crossing your fingers for are these moments where and I think she's a 10 moments where and I think she's a 10 moments where and I think she's a 10 too. And it's this uh level of sort of too. And it's this uh level of sort of too. And it's this uh level of sort of disagreement or the emergence of what we disagreement or the emergence of what we disagreement or the emergence of what we might comp call compatibility that I might comp call compatibility that I might comp call compatibility that I think is it's been missing from the think is it's been missing from the think is it's been missing from the evolutionary narratives, but I think it evolutionary narratives, but I think it evolutionary narratives, but I think it plays a core part in explaining how plays a core part in explaining how plays a core part in explaining how couples get together as well. Wow. Um so couples get together as well. Wow. Um so couples get together as well. Wow. Um so many things come to mind. Uh the first many things come to mind. Uh the first many things come to mind. Uh the first thing that comes to mind is the thing that comes to mind is the thing that comes to mind is the question, you know, who and what are question, you know, who and what are question, you know, who and what are others looking at? Yeah, it seems like others looking at? Yeah, it seems like others looking at? Yeah, it seems like one of the more I want to use the word one of the more I want to use the word one of the more I want to use the word immature, but let's say less evolved, immature, but let's say less evolved, immature, but let's say less evolved, not in the evolutionary biology context, not in the evolutionary biology context, not in the evolutionary biology context, but kind of like life maturation sense, but kind of like life maturation sense, but kind of like life maturation sense, like less evolved aspects of self is like less evolved aspects of self is like less evolved aspects of self is when when when >> we are not thinking about what we >> we are not thinking about what we >> we are not thinking about what we actually like and don't like, actually like and don't like, actually like and don't like, >> but we're paying a lot of attention to >> but we're paying a lot of attention to >> but we're paying a lot of attention to what other people like and dislike as a what other people like and dislike as a what other people like and dislike as a barometer of what we should do or not barometer of what we should do or not barometer of what we should do or not do. Now, of course, that can be very do. Now, of course, that can be very do. Now, of course, that can be very informative in healthy ways, but when it informative in healthy ways, but when it informative in healthy ways, but when it really comes down to it, it's a really comes down to it, it's a really comes down to it, it's a potentially very toxic aspect of human potentially very toxic aspect of human potentially very toxic aspect of human nature, right? So, what I what I hear nature, right? So, what I what I hear nature, right? So, what I what I hear you saying is that at some point there's you saying is that at some point there's you saying is that at some point there's this kind of um dating, romance, and this kind of um dating, romance, and this kind of um dating, romance, and relational maturity that people come to relational maturity that people come to relational maturity that people come to where they're really able to sense what where they're really able to sense what where they're really able to sense what they actually like and they're able to they actually like and they're able to they actually like and they're able to put the blinders up to how other people put the blinders up to how other people put the blinders up to how other people are necessarily behaving. like are does are necessarily behaving. like are does are necessarily behaving. like are does everyone like this person? Do they not everyone like this person? Do they not everyone like this person? Do they not like this person? And the the words that like this person? And the the words that like this person? And the the words that come to mind, two words are junior high, come to mind, two words are junior high, come to mind, two words are junior high, >> like the junior high school dance for a >> like the junior high school dance for a >> like the junior high school dance for a number of reasons is kind of the first number of reasons is kind of the first number of reasons is kind of the first time, you know, most kids are starting time, you know, most kids are starting time, you know, most kids are starting to hit puberty or somewhere in puberty to hit puberty or somewhere in puberty to hit puberty or somewhere in puberty at that phase. And so there's a lot of at that phase. And so there's a lot of at that phase. And so there's a lot of recognition of others and recognition of others and recognition of others and >> kind of like who is cool, who's not >> kind of like who is cool, who's not >> kind of like who is cool, who's not cool, who's getting attention, who's not cool, who's getting attention, who's not cool, who's getting attention, who's not getting attention seems to surface first getting attention seems to surface first getting attention seems to surface first in junior high. in junior high. in junior high. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And admittedly, we're all pretty >> And admittedly, we're all pretty >> And admittedly, we're all pretty immature in junior high. Yeah. Exactly. immature in junior high. Yeah. Exactly. >> [laughter] >> So, has this been looked at in in a >> So, has this been looked at in in a >> So, has this been looked at in in a structured way? For instance, are there structured way? For instance, are there structured way? For instance, are there adults who are um good adults who are um good adults who are um good >> at ignoring what you you know what the >> at ignoring what you you know what the >> at ignoring what you you know what the consensus is? And are are they able to consensus is? And are are they able to consensus is? And are are they able to find mates and and set up relationships find mates and and set up relationships find mates and and set up relationships more readily than people who are paying more readily than people who are paying more readily than people who are paying a lot of attention to what other people a lot of attention to what other people a lot of attention to what other people like and don't like? Yes, I'm I am sure like and don't like? Yes, I'm I am sure like and don't like? Yes, I'm I am sure that there's considerable individual that there's considerable individual that there's considerable individual variability in how people react to variability in how people react to variability in how people react to what's going on around them. Sometimes what's going on around them. Sometimes what's going on around them. Sometimes you see this phenomenon called mate you see this phenomenon called mate you see this phenomenon called mate choice copying. But what that choice copying. But what that choice copying. But what that essentially means is that you know you essentially means is that you know you essentially means is that you know you kind of look to see who's attracted to kind of look to see who's attracted to kind of look to see who's attracted to somebody in my uh you know is everybody somebody in my uh you know is everybody somebody in my uh you know is everybody attracted to this person? Well, there attracted to this person? Well, there attracted to this person? Well, there must be some signal there. I'll sort of must be some signal there. I'll sort of must be some signal there. I'll sort of follow that. follow that. follow that. I totally agree. It it's a very junior I totally agree. It it's a very junior I totally agree. It it's a very junior high way of thinking about this whole high way of thinking about this whole high way of thinking about this whole process. But I think a lot of what is process. But I think a lot of what is process. But I think a lot of what is happening is that if people are spending happening is that if people are spending happening is that if people are spending time together and I I often go back to time together and I I often go back to time together and I I often go back to thinking about what is it like when thinking about what is it like when thinking about what is it like when we're hanging out in mixed gender groups we're hanging out in mixed gender groups we're hanging out in mixed gender groups if you're heterosexual. if you're heterosexual. if you're heterosexual. So we're spending time together and So we're spending time together and So we're spending time together and maybe for whatever reason I happen to maybe for whatever reason I happen to maybe for whatever reason I happen to spend more time with this person. we spend more time with this person. we spend more time with this person. we find something interesting to chat find something interesting to chat find something interesting to chat about. I see her reacting in situations about. I see her reacting in situations about. I see her reacting in situations that other people don't get to see. And that other people don't get to see. And that other people don't get to see. And so the particular time that I spend with so the particular time that I spend with so the particular time that I spend with her ends up being the material that I her ends up being the material that I her ends up being the material that I use that causes my opinion to diverge use that causes my opinion to diverge use that causes my opinion to diverge from everybody else's. So everybody else from everybody else's. So everybody else from everybody else's. So everybody else might be like, "She's not all that might be like, "She's not all that might be like, "She's not all that great." And I think, "But you weren't great." And I think, "But you weren't great." And I think, "But you weren't there when we were hanging out talking there when we were hanging out talking there when we were hanging out talking about, you know, some family challenges about, you know, some family challenges about, you know, some family challenges that I had. I'm trying to put myself that I had. I'm trying to put myself that I had. I'm trying to put myself back in like what were the things we back in like what were the things we back in like what were the things we would have been frustrated about in high would have been frustrated about in high would have been frustrated about in high school. But you know talking about like school. But you know talking about like school. But you know talking about like problems at school or problems with problems at school or problems with problems at school or problems with other friends like she was supportive other friends like she was supportive other friends like she was supportive and listened to me and then I was and listened to me and then I was and listened to me and then I was supportive and I listened to her and supportive and I listened to her and supportive and I listened to her and that reciprocity through a unique that reciprocity through a unique that reciprocity through a unique experience with another person. A lot of experience with another person. A lot of experience with another person. A lot of times this is where initial attraction times this is where initial attraction times this is where initial attraction comes from. It sounds a little squishy. comes from. It sounds a little squishy. comes from. It sounds a little squishy. It doesn't sound like the sexy form of It doesn't sound like the sexy form of It doesn't sound like the sexy form of attraction that we often think about, attraction that we often think about, attraction that we often think about, but what we see in our work is a lot of but what we see in our work is a lot of but what we see in our work is a lot of times this is how it happens. It it times this is how it happens. It it times this is how it happens. It it takes a little while, but attraction can takes a little while, but attraction can takes a little while, but attraction can form when two people spend that time form when two people spend that time form when two people spend that time together sort of pulling unique things together sort of pulling unique things together sort of pulling unique things out of each other. I'd like to take a out of each other. I'd like to take a out of each other. I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge one of our quick break to acknowledge one of our quick break to acknowledge one of our sponsors, David. David makes protein sponsors, David. David makes protein sponsors, David. David makes protein bars unlike any other. Their newest bar, bars unlike any other. Their newest bar, bars unlike any other. 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I personally have used Lingo, the day. I personally have used Lingo, and it's been an invaluable tool for and it's been an invaluable tool for and it's been an invaluable tool for improving my metabolic health. If you improving my metabolic health. If you improving my metabolic health. If you would like to try Lingo, Hubberman Lab would like to try Lingo, Hubberman Lab would like to try Lingo, Hubberman Lab listeners in the US and UK can save 10% listeners in the US and UK can save 10% listeners in the US and UK can save 10% on a 4-week plan. Just visit on a 4-week plan. Just visit on a 4-week plan. Just visit hellolingo.com/huberman hellolingo.com/huberman hellolingo.com/huberman for more information. Terms and for more information. Terms and for more information. Terms and conditions apply. Again, that's conditions apply. Again, that's conditions apply. Again, that's hellingo.com/huberman. >> It's interesting. I'm thinking about um >> It's interesting. I'm thinking about um movies. movies. movies. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And um admittedly, I haven't seen that >> And um admittedly, I haven't seen that >> And um admittedly, I haven't seen that many romantic comedies, but there's some many romantic comedies, but there's some many romantic comedies, but there's some very there's some pretty awesome I've very there's some pretty awesome I've very there's some pretty awesome I've seen a few of them. Uh but there's some seen a few of them. Uh but there's some seen a few of them. Uh but there's some awesome movies about this issue. awesome movies about this issue. awesome movies about this issue. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I'll offer some examples that will >> And I'll offer some examples that will >> And I'll offer some examples that will date myself, but date myself, but date myself, but >> that seem to fall into at least three >> that seem to fall into at least three >> that seem to fall into at least three bins. bins. bins. >> One is >> One is >> One is you're awesome. I'm awesome. Let's get you're awesome. I'm awesome. Let's get you're awesome. I'm awesome. Let's get together. All right. Nowadays, I think together. All right. Nowadays, I think together. All right. Nowadays, I think regardless of music taste, I think the regardless of music taste, I think the regardless of music taste, I think the kind of uh like royally celebrated kind of uh like royally celebrated kind of uh like royally celebrated couple is not a royal couple. couple is not a royal couple. couple is not a royal couple. Incidentally, I would say it's like the Incidentally, I would say it's like the Incidentally, I would say it's like the Taylor Swift Taylor Swift Taylor Swift >> Kelsey couple. People like people are >> Kelsey couple. People like people are >> Kelsey couple. People like people are like they're both winners. They're both like they're both winners. They're both like they're both winners. They're both super attractive. They're both super super attractive. They're both super super attractive. They're both super successful. And you know whether you successful. And you know whether you successful. And you know whether you like the Chiefs or you don't, whether or like the Chiefs or you don't, whether or like the Chiefs or you don't, whether or not you like her music or you don't, not you like her music or you don't, not you like her music or you don't, you're like, you're like they're like you're like, you're like they're like you're like, you're like they're like badass winners pairing up badass winners pairing up badass winners pairing up >> and it's very hard to say anything >> and it's very hard to say anything >> and it's very hard to say anything except like, wow, they totally quote except like, wow, they totally quote except like, wow, they totally quote unquote belong together, right? There's unquote belong together, right? There's unquote belong together, right? There's a sort of So there's that pairing and a sort of So there's that pairing and a sort of So there's that pairing and you can find that in movies and uh all you can find that in movies and uh all you can find that in movies and uh all the like ' 80s like um uh John Hughes the like ' 80s like um uh John Hughes the like ' 80s like um uh John Hughes movies centered around this like um and movies centered around this like um and movies centered around this like um and then broke that model. We'll go back to then broke that model. We'll go back to then broke that model. We'll go back to that. The other one would be Yeah. the that. The other one would be Yeah. the that. The other one would be Yeah. the breaking of that model. the like the breaking of that model. the like the breaking of that model. the like the it's this is very 80s but the kind of it's this is very 80s but the kind of it's this is very 80s but the kind of like the athlete you know pairs up with like the athlete you know pairs up with like the athlete you know pairs up with the nerd right okay now we nowadays we the nerd right okay now we nowadays we the nerd right okay now we nowadays we have athlete nerds and so it doesn't have athlete nerds and so it doesn't have athlete nerds and so it doesn't work quite as well work quite as well work quite as well >> and then the third model is the like >> and then the third model is the like >> and then the third model is the like well you're screwed up and I'm screwed well you're screwed up and I'm screwed well you're screwed up and I'm screwed up but we're really good people up but we're really good people up but we're really good people >> like you get true romance >> like you get true romance >> like you get true romance >> the movie True Romance which is an >> the movie True Romance which is an >> the movie True Romance which is an amazing movie right you know she was a amazing movie right you know she was a amazing movie right you know she was a >> you know not by her own choice >> you know not by her own choice >> you know not by her own choice apparently like she she's like I've been apparently like she she's like I've been apparently like she she's like I've been a prostitute for three call girl for a prostitute for three call girl for a prostitute for three call girl for three days and he's three days and he's three days and he's Well, I you know, someone paid for you Well, I you know, someone paid for you Well, I you know, someone paid for you to be on this date with me. They fall in to be on this date with me. They fall in to be on this date with me. They fall in love. They leave their love. They leave their love. They leave their >> professions, right? And they go and they >> professions, right? And they go and they >> professions, right? And they go and they go on this sort of semi-rime spree um go on this sort of semi-rime spree um go on this sort of semi-rime spree um that really uh demonstrates their that really uh demonstrates their that really uh demonstrates their immense love and devotion to one immense love and devotion to one immense love and devotion to one another. And the whole notion is like another. And the whole notion is like another. And the whole notion is like you're so cool. They both think the you're so cool. They both think the you're so cool. They both think the other person is super cool, don't care other person is super cool, don't care other person is super cool, don't care about their past, and kind of enjoy the about their past, and kind of enjoy the about their past, and kind of enjoy the fact that they're both kind of from fact that they're both kind of from fact that they're both kind of from >> uh hard scrabble backgrounds. So then >> uh hard scrabble backgrounds. So then >> uh hard scrabble backgrounds. So then there's that. And what's so different there's that. And what's so different there's that. And what's so different about that kind of model compared to about that kind of model compared to about that kind of model compared to like today where I hear because I so I like today where I hear because I so I like today where I hear because I so I don't have a lot to offer about personal don't have a lot to offer about personal don't have a lot to offer about personal experience on apps many years ago but experience on apps many years ago but experience on apps many years ago but it's been a while is this notion that it's been a while is this notion that it's been a while is this notion that like everyone you hear this everyone's like everyone you hear this everyone's like everyone you hear this everyone's competing for the same small number of competing for the same small number of competing for the same small number of people. people. people. >> So it seems like even those those three >> So it seems like even those those three >> So it seems like even those those three cliche models that are presented in a cliche models that are presented in a cliche models that are presented in a number of movies they exist. It's like number of movies they exist. It's like number of movies they exist. It's like since when did is everyone thinking that since when did is everyone thinking that since when did is everyone thinking that they're supposed to pair up with the they're supposed to pair up with the they're supposed to pair up with the same small number of people? This is same small number of people? This is same small number of people? This is like ridiculous. That's like saying like ridiculous. That's like saying like ridiculous. That's like saying everyone's supposed to like the same everyone's supposed to like the same everyone's supposed to like the same >> top three songs even though you might >> top three songs even though you might >> top three songs even though you might not even like that genre of music. not even like that genre of music. not even like that genre of music. That's that's um insanity. That's that's um insanity. That's that's um insanity. >> Yeah, the apps absolutely pull for this. >> Yeah, the apps absolutely pull for this. >> Yeah, the apps absolutely pull for this. So when you look at who gets the right So when you look at who gets the right So when you look at who gets the right swipes and who receives messages on the swipes and who receives messages on the swipes and who receives messages on the apps, it's the most popular people. I apps, it's the most popular people. I apps, it's the most popular people. I mean, folks have claimed that it's one mean, folks have claimed that it's one mean, folks have claimed that it's one of the most unequal markets in the of the most unequal markets in the of the most unequal markets in the world. I mean, it's basically a world. I mean, it's basically a world. I mean, it's basically a kleptocracy. The extent to which Yeah, kleptocracy. The extent to which Yeah, kleptocracy. The extent to which Yeah, kleptocracy, right? The extent to which kleptocracy, right? The extent to which kleptocracy, right? The extent to which it's skewed, right? That there's like, it's skewed, right? That there's like, it's skewed, right? That there's like, you know, the rich, quote unquote, who you know, the rich, quote unquote, who you know, the rich, quote unquote, who have all the, you know, who who get all have all the, you know, who who get all have all the, you know, who who get all the all the the right swipes at the top. the all the the right swipes at the top. the all the the right swipes at the top. But regular acquaintance is not nearly But regular acquaintance is not nearly But regular acquaintance is not nearly so dramatic. So, you know, one example so dramatic. So, you know, one example so dramatic. So, you know, one example that I like to use is that if our job that I like to use is that if our job that I like to use is that if our job was just to evaluate whether somebody was just to evaluate whether somebody was just to evaluate whether somebody standing in front of us was hot or not, standing in front of us was hot or not, standing in front of us was hot or not, and it was somebody that we like and it was somebody that we like and it was somebody that we like interacted with briefly interacted with briefly interacted with briefly and we're making just simple binary and we're making just simple binary and we're making just simple binary judgments, you and I are going to agree judgments, you and I are going to agree judgments, you and I are going to agree about like 2/3 of the time. So that's about like 2/3 of the time. So that's about like 2/3 of the time. So that's that's better than 50/50, but it's far that's better than 50/50, but it's far that's better than 50/50, but it's far from 100%. I I think actually that would from 100%. I I think actually that would from 100%. I I think actually that would surprise a lot of people. There's a surprise a lot of people. There's a surprise a lot of people. There's a reasonable amount of disagreement there. reasonable amount of disagreement there. reasonable amount of disagreement there. That's already starting to set the stage That's already starting to set the stage That's already starting to set the stage for us not necessarily pursuing the most for us not necessarily pursuing the most for us not necessarily pursuing the most appealing person because if there's appealing person because if there's appealing person because if there's disagreement, that means there's a disagreement, that means there's a disagreement, that means there's a chance that, well, you're going to go chance that, well, you're going to go chance that, well, you're going to go for this person, I'm going to go for for this person, I'm going to go for for this person, I'm going to go for that person, and it it levels out the that person, and it it levels out the that person, and it it levels out the playing field somewhat. I don't think playing field somewhat. I don't think playing field somewhat. I don't think the influence of attractiveness ever the influence of attractiveness ever the influence of attractiveness ever goes away, right? There's always going goes away, right? There's always going goes away, right? There's always going to be an unlevel playing field to some to be an unlevel playing field to some to be an unlevel playing field to some extent, but the more that people spend extent, but the more that people spend extent, but the more that people spend time together getting to know each time together getting to know each time together getting to know each other, it reduces some of those, you other, it reduces some of those, you other, it reduces some of those, you know, uh th those market forces that know, uh th those market forces that know, uh th those market forces that give the desirable people all the give the desirable people all the give the desirable people all the advantages. advantages. advantages. >> Yeah. The reason junior high school >> Yeah. The reason junior high school >> Yeah. The reason junior high school seemed so dreadful in my memory. I mean, seemed so dreadful in my memory. I mean, seemed so dreadful in my memory. I mean, I had a good time in junior high school, I had a good time in junior high school, I had a good time in junior high school, but it it was largely, at least for me, but it it was largely, at least for me, but it it was largely, at least for me, the fact that people in my peer group, the fact that people in my peer group, the fact that people in my peer group, cuz it was a pretty broad age range, cuz it was a pretty broad age range, cuz it was a pretty broad age range, were were still um among the guys were were were still um among the guys were were were still um among the guys were hitting puberty at different rates. hitting puberty at different rates. hitting puberty at different rates. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, like a game of soccer that at one >> So, like a game of soccer that at one >> So, like a game of soccer that at one time was pretty even with respect to who time was pretty even with respect to who time was pretty even with respect to who could play well, like suddenly you're could play well, like suddenly you're could play well, like suddenly you're playing against what felt like a grown playing against what felt like a grown playing against what felt like a grown man. There's actually a kid in our town man. There's actually a kid in our town man. There's actually a kid in our town who I don't want to give up his name who who I don't want to give up his name who who I don't want to give up his name who I think he went on to I don't ever think I think he went on to I don't ever think I think he went on to I don't ever think he became a professional soccer player, he became a professional soccer player, he became a professional soccer player, but he was just but he was just but he was just >> he was like fully developed by the >> he was like fully developed by the >> he was like fully developed by the eighth grade. He was like facial hair eighth grade. He was like facial hair eighth grade. He was like facial hair and he was fast and he had like legs and he was fast and he had like legs and he was fast and he had like legs like tree trunks and he could move and I like tree trunks and he could move and I like tree trunks and he could move and I mean it was just mean it was just mean it was just >> completely dangerous to have him out on >> completely dangerous to have him out on >> completely dangerous to have him out on the field with the rest of us, right? the field with the rest of us, right? the field with the rest of us, right? And he was And he was And he was >> respected, adored, admired like and it >> respected, adored, admired like and it >> respected, adored, admired like and it was very context dependent. This was the was very context dependent. This was the was very context dependent. This was the other thing I was going to say. I think other thing I was going to say. I think other thing I was going to say. I think you and I are both scientists. So, you and I are both scientists. So, you and I are both scientists. So, coming up, you spent a lot of time in coming up, you spent a lot of time in coming up, you spent a lot of time in labs. labs. labs. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I never forget there was a romance in a >> I never forget there was a romance in a >> I never forget there was a romance in a neighboring lab um that none of us neighboring lab um that none of us neighboring lab um that none of us understood. Like none of us understood. understood. Like none of us understood. understood. Like none of us understood. >> That's funny. >> That's funny. >> That's funny. >> And I remember asking my friend who was >> And I remember asking my friend who was >> And I remember asking my friend who was in this pairing and he said the in this pairing and he said the in this pairing and he said the attraction for him, although she was attraction for him, although she was attraction for him, although she was also attractive, but the the the hook also attractive, but the the the hook also attractive, but the the the hook was her prowess at aloquotting. So was her prowess at aloquotting. So was her prowess at aloquotting. So there's a thing you do with antibodies there's a thing you do with antibodies there's a thing you do with antibodies and labs where they come in and you have and labs where they come in and you have and labs where they come in and you have to put them into the little things so to put them into the little things so to put them into the little things so that you know you freeze out a little that you know you freeze out a little that you know you freeze out a little bit and apparent bit and apparent bit and apparent >> really hard. >> really hard. >> really hard. >> Yeah. You get good at it. But apparently >> Yeah. You get good at it. But apparently >> Yeah. You get good at it. But apparently like he walked in one day and she had a like he walked in one day and she had a like he walked in one day and she had a bunch of these little tubes stuffed bunch of these little tubes stuffed bunch of these little tubes stuffed between her fingers and she was just between her fingers and she was just between her fingers and she was just aloquotting really quickly while talking aloquotting really quickly while talking aloquotting really quickly while talking and from that moment he was just like and from that moment he was just like and from that moment he was just like smitten. smitten. smitten. >> That's beautiful. >> That's beautiful. >> That's beautiful. >> And I'll say they both never heard an >> And I'll say they both never heard an >> And I'll say they both never heard an example this good. I was like her example this good. I was like her example this good. I was like her aloquatting process like it or prowess aloquatting process like it or prowess aloquatting process like it or prowess and I thought to myself like is this and I thought to myself like is this and I thought to myself like is this like tapping into something? They they like tapping into something? They they like tapping into something? They they actually have children. He's his actually have children. He's his actually have children. He's his professor. They have children together. professor. They have children together. professor. They have children together. They seem very happy. I think anyone They seem very happy. I think anyone They seem very happy. I think anyone would say they're both attractive would say they're both attractive would say they're both attractive people. But their pairing seemed like people. But their pairing seemed like people. But their pairing seemed like >> not predictable by any other external >> not predictable by any other external >> not predictable by any other external metrics. And the fact that something so metrics. And the fact that something so metrics. And the fact that something so specific was the hook. specific was the hook. specific was the hook. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that opened up into what turned out >> And that opened up into what turned out >> And that opened up into what turned out to be a long-standing marriage with kids to be a long-standing marriage with kids to be a long-standing marriage with kids is kind of wild. It is. is kind of wild. It is. is kind of wild. It is. >> But is this uncommon? Because what you >> But is this uncommon? Because what you >> But is this uncommon? Because what you described before is kind of like this, described before is kind of like this, described before is kind of like this, like there's something unique that makes like there's something unique that makes like there's something unique that makes it feel like there's a special it feel like there's a special it feel like there's a special attraction that indicates something that attraction that indicates something that attraction that indicates something that opens up to a special discussion and opens up to a special discussion and opens up to a special discussion and then there's this then there's this then there's this >> kind of um intimacy, right, that they >> kind of um intimacy, right, that they >> kind of um intimacy, right, that they share share share >> around aloquading that was spawned by >> around aloquading that was spawned by >> around aloquading that was spawned by aloquading. I don't recommend folks run aloquading. I don't recommend folks run aloquading. I don't recommend folks run out and learn how to aloquat in order to out and learn how to aloquat in order to out and learn how to aloquat in order to like this is not a strategy. Um like this is not a strategy. Um like this is not a strategy. Um [laughter] but that's the thing. [laughter] but that's the thing. [laughter] but that's the thing. >> Thematically it might be, but um so what >> Thematically it might be, but um so what >> Thematically it might be, but um so what are your thoughts on something like are your thoughts on something like are your thoughts on something like that? Okay, this is an incredible that? Okay, this is an incredible that? Okay, this is an incredible example and I think if if we're talking example and I think if if we're talking example and I think if if we're talking about couples, I think most people would about couples, I think most people would about couples, I think most people would find this idea intuitive that if you find this idea intuitive that if you find this idea intuitive that if you know I ask somebody what is what is it know I ask somebody what is what is it know I ask somebody what is what is it that you love about your wife or what is that you love about your wife or what is that you love about your wife or what is it that you love about your husband? You it that you love about your husband? You it that you love about your husband? You know, you're going to get a bunch of if know, you're going to get a bunch of if know, you're going to get a bunch of if you get them talking for long enough, you get them talking for long enough, you get them talking for long enough, you'll get some idiosyncratic details. you'll get some idiosyncratic details. you'll get some idiosyncratic details. You'll get some stories. I mean, maybe You'll get some stories. I mean, maybe You'll get some stories. I mean, maybe if they're really forthcoming, they'll if they're really forthcoming, they'll if they're really forthcoming, they'll give you the in jokes and they'll give you the in jokes and they'll give you the in jokes and they'll explain the moments that made them feel explain the moments that made them feel explain the moments that made them feel something special for this person. something special for this person. something special for this person. I think what I'm suggesting is that I think what I'm suggesting is that I think what I'm suggesting is that those moments, the the the creation of a those moments, the the the creation of a those moments, the the the creation of a narrative with another person, it goes narrative with another person, it goes narrative with another person, it goes back earlier than we think. And that a back earlier than we think. And that a back earlier than we think. And that a lot of times what we're doing when we're lot of times what we're doing when we're lot of times what we're doing when we're trying to figure out if we're into trying to figure out if we're into trying to figure out if we're into somebody, yes, we look at how they look somebody, yes, we look at how they look somebody, yes, we look at how they look visually and we we take in all that visually and we we take in all that visually and we we take in all that information and it matters a lot. But information and it matters a lot. But information and it matters a lot. But we're also talking with them, forming we're also talking with them, forming we're also talking with them, forming little stories. If you have a little bit little stories. If you have a little bit little stories. If you have a little bit of good banter, that means when I see of good banter, that means when I see of good banter, that means when I see you at the party next week, I'm going to you at the party next week, I'm going to you at the party next week, I'm going to want to sit next to you and see if we want to sit next to you and see if we want to sit next to you and see if we can recreate that moment. And that's can recreate that moment. And that's can recreate that moment. And that's often where attraction is coming from. I often where attraction is coming from. I often where attraction is coming from. I think that's why the apps are so hard think that's why the apps are so hard think that's why the apps are so hard because it turns it into an interview because it turns it into an interview because it turns it into an interview where you're trying to impress other where you're trying to impress other where you're trying to impress other people with your traits. And again, people with your traits. And again, people with your traits. And again, traits are important, but it's like it traits are important, but it's like it traits are important, but it's like it it's not the life of the thing. The life it's not the life of the thing. The life it's not the life of the thing. The life of the thing is the little stories and of the thing is the little stories and of the thing is the little stories and moments that two people are sharing and moments that two people are sharing and moments that two people are sharing and and that's I think something that that and that's I think something that that and that's I think something that that people can be doing more with. people can be doing more with. people can be doing more with. >> I'd like to divide this process that we >> I'd like to divide this process that we >> I'd like to divide this process that we call dating, romance, relationships, call dating, romance, relationships, call dating, romance, relationships, etc. into some pieces that may or may etc. into some pieces that may or may etc. into some pieces that may or may not be the right way to segment it. So, not be the right way to segment it. So, not be the right way to segment it. So, so please um change any of what I'm so please um change any of what I'm so please um change any of what I'm about to, you know, toss out. We're about to, you know, toss out. We're about to, you know, toss out. We're talking about impressions. talking about impressions. talking about impressions. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That either seed or don't see desire for >> That either seed or don't see desire for >> That either seed or don't see desire for more time. So, interest more time. So, interest more time. So, interest >> and then that I'll just broadly separate >> and then that I'll just broadly separate >> and then that I'll just broadly separate with compatibility over time. with compatibility over time. with compatibility over time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, let's spend some time on impressions >> So, let's spend some time on impressions >> So, let's spend some time on impressions that lead to desire. Which ones are that lead to desire. Which ones are that lead to desire. Which ones are meaningful? Which ones aren't? Which meaningful? Which ones aren't? Which meaningful? Which ones aren't? Which ones can be a bit misleading? I think ones can be a bit misleading? I think ones can be a bit misleading? I think most people are probably more intuitive most people are probably more intuitive most people are probably more intuitive about those if they're really honest, about those if they're really honest, about those if they're really honest, like what they find, who they find like what they find, who they find like what they find, who they find attractive, attractive, attractive, >> who they'd be willing to admit they find >> who they'd be willing to admit they find >> who they'd be willing to admit they find attractive if you remove all the other attractive if you remove all the other attractive if you remove all the other social inputs. social inputs. social inputs. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so on. But the compatibility over >> And so on. But the compatibility over >> And so on. But the compatibility over time piece is the one that is really time piece is the one that is really time piece is the one that is really hard. If you just look at the statistics hard. If you just look at the statistics hard. If you just look at the statistics on marriage, let alone the statistics on marriage, let alone the statistics on marriage, let alone the statistics on, you know, other relationships. on, you know, other relationships. on, you know, other relationships. >> It's not a bleak picture, but the >> It's not a bleak picture, but the >> It's not a bleak picture, but the numbers don't play out into if people numbers don't play out into if people numbers don't play out into if people get together and make the commitment. get together and make the commitment. get together and make the commitment. Most of the time it works out. It Most of the time it works out. It Most of the time it works out. It unfortunately doesn't seem to be that unfortunately doesn't seem to be that unfortunately doesn't seem to be that way or maybe who knows fortunately but way or maybe who knows fortunately but way or maybe who knows fortunately but so impressions leading to desire given so impressions leading to desire given so impressions leading to desire given that many of the people listening to that many of the people listening to that many of the people listening to this will they'll be thinking about this will they'll be thinking about this will they'll be thinking about their own history with their current their own history with their current their own history with their current partner or are seeking a partner or partner or are seeking a partner or partner or are seeking a partner or maybe not. What do the data say about maybe not. What do the data say about maybe not. What do the data say about what people are picking up on as really what people are picking up on as really what people are picking up on as really valid cues that drive real desire as valid cues that drive real desire as valid cues that drive real desire as opposed to the opposed to the opposed to the >> the BS about like, well, everyone else >> the BS about like, well, everyone else >> the BS about like, well, everyone else thought they were great or the great on thought they were great or the great on thought they were great or the great on paper kind of thing. The early phases paper kind of thing. The early phases paper kind of thing. The early phases especially are just naturally filled especially are just naturally filled especially are just naturally filled with a lot of uncertainty. And I think with a lot of uncertainty. And I think with a lot of uncertainty. And I think this is a bummer for a lot of people this is a bummer for a lot of people this is a bummer for a lot of people because it can feel like you're really because it can feel like you're really because it can feel like you're really into somebody or like they're really into somebody or like they're really into somebody or like they're really into me and then it turns on a dime. So into me and then it turns on a dime. So into me and then it turns on a dime. So part of that is about like searching for part of that is about like searching for part of that is about like searching for signals trying to resolve the signals trying to resolve the signals trying to resolve the uncertainty. And the problem is that uncertainty. And the problem is that uncertainty. And the problem is that it's not like, oh, if I get sufficient it's not like, oh, if I get sufficient it's not like, oh, if I get sufficient evidence that you're smart, that's going evidence that you're smart, that's going evidence that you're smart, that's going to do it. Or if I get sufficient to do it. Or if I get sufficient to do it. Or if I get sufficient evidence that you're really good at evidence that you're really good at evidence that you're really good at aloquotting, that's going to do it. What aloquotting, that's going to do it. What aloquotting, that's going to do it. What people are, I think, trying to do is people are, I think, trying to do is people are, I think, trying to do is they're trying to figure out like, do I they're trying to figure out like, do I they're trying to figure out like, do I feel enough of something for you that I feel enough of something for you that I feel enough of something for you that I want to continue this that I want to want to continue this that I want to want to continue this that I want to keep going? Yes. And but I don't want to keep going? Yes. And but I don't want to keep going? Yes. And but I don't want to act like cuz sometimes when people think act like cuz sometimes when people think act like cuz sometimes when people think about the spark, what they think is, about the spark, what they think is, about the spark, what they think is, "Oh, it's got to be there right away and "Oh, it's got to be there right away and "Oh, it's got to be there right away and I've already got to be feeling 100 for I've already got to be feeling 100 for I've already got to be feeling 100 for this person, right? I got to be at the this person, right? I got to be at the this person, right? I got to be at the top of the scale." That actually isn't top of the scale." That actually isn't top of the scale." That actually isn't what happens on average. Typically, if what happens on average. Typically, if what happens on average. Typically, if you if you look at what most you if you look at what most you if you look at what most relationships look like and you look relationships look like and you look relationships look like and you look back at the beginning, the the typical back at the beginning, the the typical back at the beginning, the the typical first impression is middling. That's how first impression is middling. That's how first impression is middling. That's how we feel at first. Middling. Just kind of we feel at first. Middling. Just kind of we feel at first. Middling. Just kind of I don't know, middle of the sky. That I don't know, middle of the sky. That I don't know, middle of the sky. That seemed all right. You know, it was fine. seemed all right. You know, it was fine. seemed all right. You know, it was fine. And then we interacted again. And then we interacted again. And then we interacted again. >> Not bad, not over the top. >> Not bad, not over the top. >> Not bad, not over the top. >> Not bad. Not Not over the top. And as we >> Not bad. Not Not over the top. And as we >> Not bad. Not Not over the top. And as we spend a little more time together, oh, spend a little more time together, oh, spend a little more time together, oh, like actually I find him pretty funny or like actually I find him pretty funny or like actually I find him pretty funny or I think he's really smart or um you I think he's really smart or um you I think he's really smart or um you know, I really like how good a listener know, I really like how good a listener know, I really like how good a listener he was. And I think what people are he was. And I think what people are he was. And I think what people are often trying to do is get enough moments often trying to do is get enough moments often trying to do is get enough moments that fit enough of these different trait that fit enough of these different trait that fit enough of these different trait categories that they think, well, you categories that they think, well, you categories that they think, well, you know, whatever other people say about know, whatever other people say about know, whatever other people say about this person, like with me, he seems like this person, like with me, he seems like this person, like with me, he seems like a pretty sensitive guy. with me, he a pretty sensitive guy. with me, he a pretty sensitive guy. with me, he seems pretty witty. With me, you know, seems pretty witty. With me, you know, seems pretty witty. With me, you know, like I actually think he's really hot like I actually think he's really hot like I actually think he's really hot when he does XYZ. And so if you when he does XYZ. And so if you when he does XYZ. And so if you accumulate enough of those, then you accumulate enough of those, then you accumulate enough of those, then you find yourself, you know, it's like you find yourself, you know, it's like you find yourself, you know, it's like you keep coming back. So that's how I think keep coming back. So that's how I think keep coming back. So that's how I think about it is this like slow accumulation about it is this like slow accumulation about it is this like slow accumulation of information. of information. of information. Sometimes people will encounter things Sometimes people will encounter things Sometimes people will encounter things like like the ick where there's one like like the ick where there's one like like the ick where there's one moment and then they tip over the edge moment and then they tip over the edge moment and then they tip over the edge the other way into feeling like I can't the other way into feeling like I can't the other way into feeling like I can't be with this person. be with this person. be with this person. >> Is that typically women who feel that >> Is that typically women who feel that >> Is that typically women who feel that about men? I mean do men describe that? about men? I mean do men describe that? about men? I mean do men describe that? >> I think yeah men have those experiences >> I think yeah men have those experiences >> I think yeah men have those experiences too. It is pretty underresarched. And too. It is pretty underresarched. And too. It is pretty underresarched. And one of the reasons why is because this one of the reasons why is because this one of the reasons why is because this whole phase I'm talking about is whole phase I'm talking about is whole phase I'm talking about is remarkably hard to study because we as remarkably hard to study because we as remarkably hard to study because we as researchers we're very good at how do researchers we're very good at how do researchers we're very good at how do you feel about somebody if you're you feel about somebody if you're you feel about somebody if you're looking at a picture or if you've hung looking at a picture or if you've hung looking at a picture or if you've hung out for like four minutes. I mean that's out for like four minutes. I mean that's out for like four minutes. I mean that's what a lot of the initial attraction what a lot of the initial attraction what a lot of the initial attraction paradigms look like. I like those paradigms look like. I like those paradigms look like. I like those paradigms. I study those paradigms paradigms. I study those paradigms paradigms. I study those paradigms myself. And then it's very easy to myself. And then it's very easy to myself. And then it's very easy to recruit couples and then see what recruit couples and then see what recruit couples and then see what happens to them. what explains why their happens to them. what explains why their happens to them. what explains why their relationships stay together and why they relationships stay together and why they relationships stay together and why they fall apart. But this period and it's fall apart. But this period and it's fall apart. But this period and it's it's my favorite thing to think about it's my favorite thing to think about it's my favorite thing to think about and it's also one of the most mysterious and it's also one of the most mysterious and it's also one of the most mysterious is Yeah, but what happened from like is Yeah, but what happened from like is Yeah, but what happened from like minute 10 to you know day 30 where now minute 10 to you know day 30 where now minute 10 to you know day 30 where now you were really determined to be in a you were really determined to be in a you were really determined to be in a relationship with this person and and relationship with this person and and relationship with this person and and that's a typical amount of time. it it that's a typical amount of time. it it that's a typical amount of time. it it usually doesn't happen instantaneously usually doesn't happen instantaneously usually doesn't happen instantaneously that people know right away, hey, no, that people know right away, hey, no, that people know right away, hey, no, this is it. I want to be with this this is it. I want to be with this this is it. I want to be with this person. It's that slow accumulation. And person. It's that slow accumulation. And person. It's that slow accumulation. And when we look at it, it's it's almost when we look at it, it's it's almost when we look at it, it's it's almost like you've got a window of uncertainty like you've got a window of uncertainty like you've got a window of uncertainty and it's slowly collapsing to a stable and it's slowly collapsing to a stable and it's slowly collapsing to a stable impression that people have of this impression that people have of this impression that people have of this person as they gather a little bit more person as they gather a little bit more person as they gather a little bit more information and a little bit more information and a little bit more information and a little bit more information. And what you just hope for information. And what you just hope for information. And what you just hope for is that as two people you're collapsing is that as two people you're collapsing is that as two people you're collapsing to a fairly stable impression that is to a fairly stable impression that is to a fairly stable impression that is both very positive of each other. And I both very positive of each other. And I both very positive of each other. And I think a large part that's how people get think a large part that's how people get think a large part that's how people get together together together >> and hopefully accurate too. >> and hopefully accurate too. >> and hopefully accurate too. >> Yeah. So the accuracy part is >> Yeah. So the accuracy part is >> Yeah. So the accuracy part is interesting because I mean you know I'm interesting because I mean you know I'm interesting because I mean you know I'm a psychologist. I'm a social a psychologist. I'm a social a psychologist. I'm a social psychologist and so social psychologists psychologist and so social psychologists psychologist and so social psychologists are big into well your perception is are big into well your perception is are big into well your perception is your reality and boy do you see a lot of your reality and boy do you see a lot of your reality and boy do you see a lot of evidence especially in relationships evidence especially in relationships evidence especially in relationships that people are biased when it comes to that people are biased when it comes to that people are biased when it comes to their romantic relationships their romantic relationships their romantic relationships >> in what sense >> in what sense >> in what sense >> it can happen in ways like you know >> it can happen in ways like you know >> it can happen in ways like you know everybody kind of agrees that your everybody kind of agrees that your everybody kind of agrees that your partner's a jerk but you genuinely don't partner's a jerk but you genuinely don't partner's a jerk but you genuinely don't think they're a jerk and when they're think they're a jerk and when they're think they're a jerk and when they're with you they don't seem like a jerk so with you they don't seem like a jerk so with you they don't seem like a jerk so any kind measure I would take your any kind measure I would take your any kind measure I would take your perception of, you know, your partner perception of, you know, your partner perception of, you know, your partner versus everybody else's perception. You versus everybody else's perception. You versus everybody else's perception. You would seem to be horribly positively would seem to be horribly positively would seem to be horribly positively biased biased biased for your partner. for your partner. for your partner. The question is whether you're wrong and The question is whether you're wrong and The question is whether you're wrong and I land on the side of I mean from your I land on the side of I mean from your I land on the side of I mean from your perspective you're not perspective you're not perspective you're not to argue that it would be better to to argue that it would be better to to argue that it would be better to listen to the consensus that your listen to the consensus that your listen to the consensus that your partner is a jerk kind it's sort of like partner is a jerk kind it's sort of like partner is a jerk kind it's sort of like um you're arguing for like a sleeper um you're arguing for like a sleeper um you're arguing for like a sleeper effect like there's wisdom in what other effect like there's wisdom in what other effect like there's wisdom in what other people know that you don't see. people know that you don't see. people know that you don't see. The evidence for that is actually not The evidence for that is actually not The evidence for that is actually not not great. It's it I'm it it could be not great. It's it I'm it it could be not great. It's it I'm it it could be and I'm sure it happens sometimes, but and I'm sure it happens sometimes, but and I'm sure it happens sometimes, but what usually happens in relationships is what usually happens in relationships is what usually happens in relationships is that people's own impressions and that people's own impressions and that people's own impressions and perceptions tend to be the major driver. perceptions tend to be the major driver. perceptions tend to be the major driver. Now, that can go in the other way, too, Now, that can go in the other way, too, Now, that can go in the other way, too, because we might all agree this person because we might all agree this person because we might all agree this person would be the most amazing partner to be would be the most amazing partner to be would be the most amazing partner to be with, and yet you've now gotten to the with, and yet you've now gotten to the with, and yet you've now gotten to the point in this relationship where you point in this relationship where you point in this relationship where you don't see it anymore, and you can't don't see it anymore, and you can't don't see it anymore, and you can't unsee the negative things you've seen. unsee the negative things you've seen. unsee the negative things you've seen. And so, that relationship can be very And so, that relationship can be very And so, that relationship can be very hard to salvage. The statement has been hard to salvage. The statement has been hard to salvage. The statement has been made by someone I know and trust about made by someone I know and trust about made by someone I know and trust about all things in life, all things in life, all things in life, all things in life, all things in life, all things in life, not just relationships, but certainly not just relationships, but certainly not just relationships, but certainly including them, that including them, that including them, that If people just treated If people just treated If people just treated their taste in people, in music, in art, their taste in people, in music, in art, their taste in people, in music, in art, in experiences the same way they treated in experiences the same way they treated in experiences the same way they treated their taste in food, everyone would be a their taste in food, everyone would be a their taste in food, everyone would be a lot better off. lot better off. lot better off. >> Meaning, >> Meaning, >> Meaning, if one has the impression that they if one has the impression that they if one has the impression that they really like something, they really like really like something, they really like really like something, they really like this person, then just go for it. I this person, then just go for it. I this person, then just go for it. I mean, unless there's some sort of danger mean, unless there's some sort of danger mean, unless there's some sort of danger they're not aware of, right? they're not aware of, right? they're not aware of, right? >> Okay. Okay. And which and we'll talk >> Okay. Okay. And which and we'll talk >> Okay. Okay. And which and we'll talk about consensus, communicating danger, about consensus, communicating danger, about consensus, communicating danger, separate separate issue, but it crosses separate separate issue, but it crosses separate separate issue, but it crosses into this online dating thing based on a into this online dating thing based on a into this online dating thing based on a lot of conversations I've had with young lot of conversations I've had with young lot of conversations I've had with young men and women. But music, you hear it, men and women. But music, you hear it, men and women. But music, you hear it, you either like it or you don't. We you either like it or you don't. We you either like it or you don't. We don't tend to have a hard time defending don't tend to have a hard time defending don't tend to have a hard time defending our stance on those things. But when it our stance on those things. But when it our stance on those things. But when it comes to relationships, it's almost like comes to relationships, it's almost like comes to relationships, it's almost like we're many people are walking around we're many people are walking around we're many people are walking around with a little or a lot of that junior with a little or a lot of that junior with a little or a lot of that junior high narrative in their in their mind. high narrative in their in their mind. high narrative in their in their mind. >> Not necessarily be with somebody that >> Not necessarily be with somebody that >> Not necessarily be with somebody that they can't stand because everyone else they can't stand because everyone else they can't stand because everyone else thinks they're great. I think that's thinks they're great. I think that's thinks they're great. I think that's pretty rare. Probably happens, but it's pretty rare. Probably happens, but it's pretty rare. Probably happens, but it's pretty rare. But at these early stages pretty rare. But at these early stages pretty rare. But at these early stages that you study, that they're navigating that you study, that they're navigating that you study, that they're navigating that process in a way where they're not that process in a way where they're not that process in a way where they're not in tune with their own taste. they're in tune with their own taste. they're in tune with their own taste. they're integrating all this other information integrating all this other information integrating all this other information in a way that's not helpful. It's not in a way that's not helpful. It's not in a way that's not helpful. It's not protecting them. In fact, it's it's just protecting them. In fact, it's it's just protecting them. In fact, it's it's just clouding the signal. It's noise, clouding the signal. It's noise, clouding the signal. It's noise, >> right? In the signal to noise model, >> right? In the signal to noise model, >> right? In the signal to noise model, like it's noise. It's just pure noise. like it's noise. It's just pure noise. like it's noise. It's just pure noise. >> And as a consequence, >> And as a consequence, >> And as a consequence, >> people are wasting their time and other >> people are wasting their time and other >> people are wasting their time and other people's time. people's time. people's time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I don't believe everyone's trying to >> And I don't believe everyone's trying to >> And I don't believe everyone's trying to waste each other's time. It just seems waste each other's time. It just seems waste each other's time. It just seems that we're conditioned to do this. Yeah. that we're conditioned to do this. Yeah. that we're conditioned to do this. Yeah. And I will say it does take a pretty And I will say it does take a pretty And I will say it does take a pretty strong strong strong person to say, "Listen, I know that's person to say, "Listen, I know that's person to say, "Listen, I know that's what you see. I know that's what they what you see. I know that's what they what you see. I know that's what they say, but like this person's great. Like say, but like this person's great. Like say, but like this person's great. Like they're right for me." And when people they're right for me." And when people they're right for me." And when people do that in general, people tend to back do that in general, people tend to back do that in general, people tend to back off. off. off. >> And of course, there's >> And of course, there's >> And of course, there's >> Shakespeare about this, right? But that >> Shakespeare about this, right? But that >> Shakespeare about this, right? But that tends to be cultural pressure of like, tends to be cultural pressure of like, tends to be cultural pressure of like, "No, you two can't be together or the "No, you two can't be together or the "No, you two can't be together or the parents don't want her or one set of parents don't want her or one set of parents don't want her or one set of parents." I mean some of the greatest parents." I mean some of the greatest parents." I mean some of the greatest romances have been born out of that fu romances have been born out of that fu romances have been born out of that fu to the to the elders to the community to the to the elders to the community to the to the elders to the community but this is a little different. Yes. You but this is a little different. Yes. You but this is a little different. Yes. You know, it's a tricky thing to navigate know, it's a tricky thing to navigate know, it's a tricky thing to navigate because I I think one of the best because I I think one of the best because I I think one of the best situations to end up in is where you're situations to end up in is where you're situations to end up in is where you're in a relationship and let's say it's a in a relationship and let's say it's a in a relationship and let's say it's a new relationship and your friends around new relationship and your friends around new relationship and your friends around you basically think, you know, we're you basically think, you know, we're you basically think, you know, we're happy for you and we're going to happy for you and we're going to happy for you and we're going to celebrate you and, you know, we're going celebrate you and, you know, we're going celebrate you and, you know, we're going to celebrate this relationship. We to celebrate this relationship. We to celebrate this relationship. We support you. We just wouldn't be support you. We just wouldn't be support you. We just wouldn't be terribly interested in this person terribly interested in this person terribly interested in this person ourselves. That's the ideal, right? ourselves. That's the ideal, right? ourselves. That's the ideal, right? Where it's not exceptionally Where it's not exceptionally Where it's not exceptionally competitive. You're not worried about competitive. You're not worried about competitive. You're not worried about your friends trying to poach your your friends trying to poach your your friends trying to poach your partner away, but at the same time, partner away, but at the same time, partner away, but at the same time, they're supportive of the relationship they're supportive of the relationship they're supportive of the relationship because that support from friends and because that support from friends and because that support from friends and family, it is important. Like, it family, it is important. Like, it family, it is important. Like, it certainly shapes how people feel. certainly shapes how people feel. certainly shapes how people feel. there's a way to navigate that that there's a way to navigate that that there's a way to navigate that that doesn't make it a you know like I'm glad doesn't make it a you know like I'm glad doesn't make it a you know like I'm glad you I'm glad you like my girlfriend but you I'm glad you like my girlfriend but you I'm glad you like my girlfriend but like don't like her too much please. You like don't like her too much please. You like don't like her too much please. You want to kind of try to find that balance want to kind of try to find that balance want to kind of try to find that balance there. And that's a tricky thing. I mean there. And that's a tricky thing. I mean there. And that's a tricky thing. I mean I think this is a lot of what people are I think this is a lot of what people are I think this is a lot of what people are trying to navigate in adolescence. trying to navigate in adolescence. trying to navigate in adolescence. They're trying to figure out like how They're trying to figure out like how They're trying to figure out like how can I be part of a friend group and have can I be part of a friend group and have can I be part of a friend group and have a romantic relationship and navigate the a romantic relationship and navigate the a romantic relationship and navigate the complexities that come with that. I complexities that come with that. I complexities that come with that. I mean, I vividly remember these like mean, I vividly remember these like mean, I vividly remember these like junior high, early high school junior high, early high school junior high, early high school experiences experiences experiences of dating somebody, but also your of dating somebody, but also your of dating somebody, but also your friends are into this person. And friends are into this person. And friends are into this person. And actually, it was a relationship where my actually, it was a relationship where my actually, it was a relationship where my girlfriend at the time broke up with me, girlfriend at the time broke up with me, girlfriend at the time broke up with me, starts dating my best friend. We're all starts dating my best friend. We're all starts dating my best friend. We're all friends now. It's all fine now. And it's friends now. It's all fine now. And it's friends now. It's all fine now. And it's like at this moment that I discover like at this moment that I discover like at this moment that I discover evolutionary psychology, that I discover evolutionary psychology, that I discover evolutionary psychology, that I discover this narrative. And it just felt like this narrative. And it just felt like this narrative. And it just felt like such a double-edged sword cuz how such a double-edged sword cuz how such a double-edged sword cuz how wonderful is it to think about how wonderful is it to think about how wonderful is it to think about how people have been navigating these people have been navigating these people have been navigating these challenges, ex-girlfriends breaking up challenges, ex-girlfriends breaking up challenges, ex-girlfriends breaking up with you for your best friend. This has with you for your best friend. This has with you for your best friend. This has been happening for tens of thousands of been happening for tens of thousands of been happening for tens of thousands of years. Like I'm not alone. I'm not the years. Like I'm not alone. I'm not the years. Like I'm not alone. I'm not the first person to experience this. And first person to experience this. And first person to experience this. And then to also read at the same time, oh then to also read at the same time, oh then to also read at the same time, oh my god, this reflects something true my god, this reflects something true my god, this reflects something true about my deep underlying value. This is about my deep underlying value. This is about my deep underlying value. This is kind of scary. So those two things kind of scary. So those two things kind of scary. So those two things together, weirdly, were what got me together, weirdly, were what got me together, weirdly, were what got me hooked on this. The the feeling like hooked on this. The the feeling like hooked on this. The the feeling like evolutionary psychology is fascinating evolutionary psychology is fascinating evolutionary psychology is fascinating and really bleak at the same time. and really bleak at the same time. and really bleak at the same time. >> Yeah, I agree. Uh I was going to say >> Yeah, I agree. Uh I was going to say >> Yeah, I agree. Uh I was going to say brutal. I'm sorry you had to go through brutal. I'm sorry you had to go through brutal. I'm sorry you had to go through that. Although I'm glad you're all that. Although I'm glad you're all that. Although I'm glad you're all friends. I think it happens. It's all friends. I think it happens. It's all friends. I think it happens. It's all good. probably not to everyone, but I I good. probably not to everyone, but I I good. probably not to everyone, but I I can remember similar experiences where can remember similar experiences where can remember similar experiences where you're just like, "Oh man, what a gut you're just like, "Oh man, what a gut you're just like, "Oh man, what a gut punch." And part of the maturational punch." And part of the maturational punch." And part of the maturational process is um process is um process is um >> realizing like, okay, they might be >> realizing like, okay, they might be >> realizing like, okay, they might be better suited and they'll be someone for better suited and they'll be someone for better suited and they'll be someone for me. And me. And me. And >> honestly, they were better suited for >> honestly, they were better suited for >> honestly, they were better suited for each other. each other. each other. >> All right. All right. I have a question >> All right. All right. I have a question >> All right. All right. I have a question about the science or how to study these about the science or how to study these about the science or how to study these sorts of things. So, if I set aside my sorts of things. So, if I set aside my sorts of things. So, if I set aside my science hat and I say, "All right, science hat and I say, "All right, science hat and I say, "All right, >> you can study this stuff, but wait, >> you can study this stuff, but wait, >> you can study this stuff, but wait, >> if we're talking about a a kind of >> if we're talking about a a kind of >> if we're talking about a a kind of unique hook, like let's just assume the unique hook, like let's just assume the unique hook, like let's just assume the person the people are within the range person the people are within the range person the people are within the range of attractiveness. Again, I hate this of attractiveness. Again, I hate this of attractiveness. Again, I hate this quantitative thing, but they think the quantitative thing, but they think the quantitative thing, but they think the other person's attractive, they're they other person's attractive, they're they other person's attractive, they're they they're dating because they want to find they're dating because they want to find they're dating because they want to find someone, right? They're not resistant to someone, right? They're not resistant to someone, right? They're not resistant to commitment. They're looking for for a commitment. They're looking for for a commitment. They're looking for for a partner. And the number of histories partner. And the number of histories partner. And the number of histories that people are bringing to that is that people are bringing to that is that people are bringing to that is infinite or near infinite. So let's say infinite or near infinite. So let's say infinite or near infinite. So let's say the hook is listen one person had a hard the hook is listen one person had a hard the hook is listen one person had a hard past based on um an abusive household. past based on um an abusive household. past based on um an abusive household. The other person is really gentle. They The other person is really gentle. They The other person is really gentle. They had a great past and and the person had a great past and and the person had a great past and and the person feels very safe in that. Right? We feels very safe in that. Right? We feels very safe in that. Right? We always think about the trauma bond, always think about the trauma bond, always think about the trauma bond, right? Which is an unfortunate thing right? Which is an unfortunate thing right? Which is an unfortunate thing that does seem to happen. But it could that does seem to happen. But it could that does seem to happen. But it could also be both people had difficult pasts. also be both people had difficult pasts. also be both people had difficult pasts. you know, parents with addiction issues you know, parents with addiction issues you know, parents with addiction issues or mental health issues and they can or mental health issues and they can or mental health issues and they can relate. Okay, that's one example. The relate. Okay, that's one example. The relate. Okay, that's one example. The other is uh we both value X, we both other is uh we both value X, we both other is uh we both value X, we both value Y. And so the the unique glue, value Y. And so the the unique glue, value Y. And so the the unique glue, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> is near infinite, right? So the question >> is near infinite, right? So the question >> is near infinite, right? So the question I have and this isn't a challenge, it's I have and this isn't a challenge, it's I have and this isn't a challenge, it's just a genuine um curiosity is how do just a genuine um curiosity is how do just a genuine um curiosity is how do you study this process then? Because you study this process then? Because you study this process then? Because what are the universals of what is it what are the universals of what is it what are the universals of what is it what people define as some kind of um what people define as some kind of um what people define as some kind of um like lock and key that they didn't know like lock and key that they didn't know like lock and key that they didn't know they were looking for that that lock and they were looking for that that lock and they were looking for that that lock and key combination and then they go oh this key combination and then they go oh this key combination and then they go oh this feels unique and the reason I asked this feels unique and the reason I asked this feels unique and the reason I asked this is because I want to frame the the is because I want to frame the the is because I want to frame the the science but also I want to know to what science but also I want to know to what science but also I want to know to what extent being aware of what's critical to extent being aware of what's critical to extent being aware of what's critical to oneself is important in this process. oneself is important in this process. oneself is important in this process. >> Does that make sense? There's a lot of >> Does that make sense? There's a lot of >> Does that make sense? There's a lot of words there, but basically like how well words there, but basically like how well words there, but basically like how well one knows themselves can often help lead one knows themselves can often help lead one knows themselves can often help lead to better choices in in partner choice. to better choices in in partner choice. to better choices in in partner choice. >> And so people go know like gosh, I I >> And so people go know like gosh, I I >> And so people go know like gosh, I I really really would like someone that I really really would like someone that I really really would like someone that I could feel understood around this or could feel understood around this or could feel understood around this or feel really safe around this or make feel really safe around this or make feel really safe around this or make them feel really safe around that. With them feel really safe around that. With them feel really safe around that. With any relationship, it's almost like you any relationship, it's almost like you any relationship, it's almost like you have to hold these two seemingly have to hold these two seemingly have to hold these two seemingly contradictory truths at the same time. contradictory truths at the same time. contradictory truths at the same time. One is that One is that One is that >> no two people in the history of the >> no two people in the history of the >> no two people in the history of the world have experienced what we're world have experienced what we're world have experienced what we're experiencing right now. And yet there experiencing right now. And yet there experiencing right now. And yet there are broad general principles that we can are broad general principles that we can are broad general principles that we can point to that can explain some of the point to that can explain some of the point to that can explain some of the dynamics of every romantic relationship dynamics of every romantic relationship dynamics of every romantic relationship that has ever existed. So when it comes that has ever existed. So when it comes that has ever existed. So when it comes to broad principles, I love the to broad principles, I love the to broad principles, I love the attachment framework. I mean, what's attachment framework. I mean, what's attachment framework. I mean, what's fascinating about attachment is that fascinating about attachment is that fascinating about attachment is that this is just as evolutionary as all the this is just as evolutionary as all the this is just as evolutionary as all the other evolutionary theories you've heard other evolutionary theories you've heard other evolutionary theories you've heard about online. It's just a different about online. It's just a different about online. It's just a different evolutionary theory. But this evolutionary theory. But this evolutionary theory. But this perspective suggests that we are perspective suggests that we are perspective suggests that we are creatures that form bonds with each creatures that form bonds with each creatures that form bonds with each other. We essentially crave closeness, other. We essentially crave closeness, other. We essentially crave closeness, intimacy, support. We thrive when we get intimacy, support. We thrive when we get intimacy, support. We thrive when we get it. We're more likely to recover. We it. We're more likely to recover. We it. We're more likely to recover. We sleep better. We get all of these sleep better. We get all of these sleep better. We get all of these benefits from close attached benefits from close attached benefits from close attached relationships. relationships. relationships. But for some people or at some points in But for some people or at some points in But for some people or at some points in their lives, we can struggle to have their lives, we can struggle to have their lives, we can struggle to have those kinds of relationships sometimes those kinds of relationships sometimes those kinds of relationships sometimes because we become too anxious about because we become too anxious about because we become too anxious about them. We need them a little too much. We them. We need them a little too much. We them. We need them a little too much. We become uncomfortable in our own skin or become uncomfortable in our own skin or become uncomfortable in our own skin or we tip the other way. We become very we tip the other way. We become very we tip the other way. We become very avoidant. We become overly independent. avoidant. We become overly independent. avoidant. We become overly independent. We become convinced that we really don't We become convinced that we really don't We become convinced that we really don't need anybody else. need anybody else. need anybody else. These are broad attachment dynamics that These are broad attachment dynamics that These are broad attachment dynamics that people will go through their whole lives people will go through their whole lives people will go through their whole lives having to navigate. A lot of people have having to navigate. A lot of people have having to navigate. A lot of people have probably heard about like the you can probably heard about like the you can probably heard about like the you can have an anxious attachment style or an have an anxious attachment style or an have an anxious attachment style or an avoidant attachment style and all of avoidant attachment style and all of avoidant attachment style and all of that is true. But one thing we know that is true. But one thing we know that is true. But one thing we know today from studying more couples and today from studying more couples and today from studying more couples and getting better at studying couples over getting better at studying couples over getting better at studying couples over longer periods of time is you realize longer periods of time is you realize longer periods of time is you realize that boy people's attachment that boy people's attachment that boy people's attachment orientations really can change. So orientations really can change. So orientations really can change. So somebody can come into a relationship somebody can come into a relationship somebody can come into a relationship with an avoidant trauma-filled past, but with an avoidant trauma-filled past, but with an avoidant trauma-filled past, but with enough time with the right kind of with enough time with the right kind of with enough time with the right kind of person, again sharing their unique bond, person, again sharing their unique bond, person, again sharing their unique bond, which maybe science will never crack, which maybe science will never crack, which maybe science will never crack, but they know all about it. but they know all about it. but they know all about it. That person will start to become less That person will start to become less That person will start to become less and less avoidant with time. They'll and less avoidant with time. They'll and less avoidant with time. They'll become more secure. They'll get more of become more secure. They'll get more of become more secure. They'll get more of those physiological benefits out of the those physiological benefits out of the those physiological benefits out of the relationship. they'll get more of the relationship. they'll get more of the relationship. they'll get more of the support related benefits out of the support related benefits out of the support related benefits out of the relationship and that can in effect turn relationship and that can in effect turn relationship and that can in effect turn somebody into a more secure person. So somebody into a more secure person. So somebody into a more secure person. So the these are the attachment lessons the these are the attachment lessons the these are the attachment lessons that I often point to and I think that I often point to and I think that I often point to and I think they're they're useful for at least they're they're useful for at least they're they're useful for at least helping me remember that tension between helping me remember that tension between helping me remember that tension between like yeah anxiety and avoidance. Two like yeah anxiety and avoidance. Two like yeah anxiety and avoidance. Two very broad processes that are always very broad processes that are always very broad processes that are always happening behind the scenes and yet the happening behind the scenes and yet the happening behind the scenes and yet the way it unfolds for any one particular way it unfolds for any one particular way it unfolds for any one particular couple. It's always going to be this couple. It's always going to be this couple. It's always going to be this weird unique combination of stories and weird unique combination of stories and weird unique combination of stories and in jokes and little moments that in jokes and little moments that in jokes and little moments that scaffold up to hopefully, you know, help scaffold up to hopefully, you know, help scaffold up to hopefully, you know, help somebody become more secure eventually. somebody become more secure eventually. somebody become more secure eventually. I'd like to take a quick break and I'd like to take a quick break and I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that vitamin mineral probiotic drink that vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. 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Seems to me that barring um again like Seems to me that barring um again like Seems to me that barring um again like an emotional or physical safety issue, an emotional or physical safety issue, an emotional or physical safety issue, >> the less that couples are talking to >> the less that couples are talking to >> the less that couples are talking to other people besides a trained other people besides a trained other people besides a trained >> therapist, if they choose to do that, >> therapist, if they choose to do that, >> therapist, if they choose to do that, maybe not even doing that about their maybe not even doing that about their maybe not even doing that about their relationship, probably the more relationship, probably the more relationship, probably the more protected their relationship is. So protected their relationship is. So protected their relationship is. So that's interesting. that's interesting. that's interesting. >> The the darts of uh envious people. >> The the darts of uh envious people. >> The the darts of uh envious people. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> the unhelpful positive comments from >> the unhelpful positive comments from >> the unhelpful positive comments from people, right? Because there could be people, right? Because there could be people, right? Because there could be instances where a relationship is really instances where a relationship is really instances where a relationship is really flagging and and flagging and and flagging and and >> someone doesn't disclose that and they >> someone doesn't disclose that and they >> someone doesn't disclose that and they they don't really understand what's they don't really understand what's they don't really understand what's going on and were they not to share that going on and were they not to share that going on and were they not to share that then, you know, everyone's getting all then, you know, everyone's getting all then, you know, everyone's getting all this positive input and they think, this positive input and they think, this positive input and they think, well, I think this is just how it's well, I think this is just how it's well, I think this is just how it's supposed to go. supposed to go. supposed to go. >> So there's the suffering and silence >> So there's the suffering and silence >> So there's the suffering and silence piece. Y piece. Y piece. Y >> we want to I I don't think that's good. >> we want to I I don't think that's good. >> we want to I I don't think that's good. But there's the kind of um going out for But there's the kind of um going out for But there's the kind of um going out for external assessment piece. And as I say external assessment piece. And as I say external assessment piece. And as I say this, I you know it's it's funny because this, I you know it's it's funny because this, I you know it's it's funny because we the year at UC Davis and I did my PhD we the year at UC Davis and I did my PhD we the year at UC Davis and I did my PhD there. I was just remembering like when there. I was just remembering like when there. I was just remembering like when you pick projects in graduate school, you pick projects in graduate school, you pick projects in graduate school, you get some consensus about what's a you get some consensus about what's a you get some consensus about what's a good project. But so much of becoming a good project. But so much of becoming a good project. But so much of becoming a good scientist is kind of learning to good scientist is kind of learning to good scientist is kind of learning to put up the middle finger and just keep put up the middle finger and just keep put up the middle finger and just keep going as the the sort of pressure test going as the the sort of pressure test going as the the sort of pressure test of doing science is people going, "Well, of doing science is people going, "Well, of doing science is people going, "Well, that's is that really that interesting?" that's is that really that interesting?" that's is that really that interesting?" And you don't really know how much to And you don't really know how much to And you don't really know how much to pay attention to it. And it kind of pays pay attention to it. And it kind of pays pay attention to it. And it kind of pays to be a little bit bulldogish and just to be a little bit bulldogish and just to be a little bit bulldogish and just go, "Yeah, I don't know like and just go, "Yeah, I don't know like and just go, "Yeah, I don't know like and just ignore it and just keep going." I can ignore it and just keep going." I can ignore it and just keep going." I can say this is also true in any kind of say this is also true in any kind of say this is also true in any kind of creative endeavor or public facing life. creative endeavor or public facing life. creative endeavor or public facing life. Like it doesn't make good adaptive sense Like it doesn't make good adaptive sense Like it doesn't make good adaptive sense to pay too much attention but nobody to pay too much attention but nobody to pay too much attention but nobody wants to be the person that like steps wants to be the person that like steps wants to be the person that like steps in it or does something really stupid. in it or does something really stupid. in it or does something really stupid. But in relationships when if something But in relationships when if something But in relationships when if something feels good feels good feels good >> maybe >> maybe >> maybe >> we shouldn't be going out and getting >> we shouldn't be going out and getting >> we shouldn't be going out and getting you know putting our finger in the wind you know putting our finger in the wind you know putting our finger in the wind to get input. So it's fascinating to get input. So it's fascinating to get input. So it's fascinating because I mentioned earlier that right because I mentioned earlier that right because I mentioned earlier that right the the extent to which you feel at the the extent to which you feel at the the extent to which you feel at least like the people around you have least like the people around you have least like the people around you have your relationships back that's a useful your relationships back that's a useful your relationships back that's a useful thing but I think that probably isn't thing but I think that probably isn't thing but I think that probably isn't happening through a process of happening through a process of happening through a process of yeah like pseudotherapy I want to talk yeah like pseudotherapy I want to talk yeah like pseudotherapy I want to talk to my friends about my relationship or to my friends about my relationship or to my friends about my relationship or at least to the extent that that is at least to the extent that that is at least to the extent that that is happening I bet you're right that has happening I bet you're right that has happening I bet you're right that has some real risks. I think probably the some real risks. I think probably the some real risks. I think probably the good version of this process or the one good version of this process or the one good version of this process or the one that I would advocate for comes from that I would advocate for comes from that I would advocate for comes from research looking at like couple friends research looking at like couple friends research looking at like couple friends or like double date nights. So, I'm not or like double date nights. So, I'm not or like double date nights. So, I'm not asking you for input on my relationship, asking you for input on my relationship, asking you for input on my relationship, but in effect, I'm asking you and maybe but in effect, I'm asking you and maybe but in effect, I'm asking you and maybe your partner to experience our your partner to experience our your partner to experience our relationship in real time by hanging out relationship in real time by hanging out relationship in real time by hanging out together, the four of us. And so that together, the four of us. And so that together, the four of us. And so that can often feel like validation without can often feel like validation without can often feel like validation without explicitly asking for it. And I think explicitly asking for it. And I think explicitly asking for it. And I think that can often be a very good thing. And that can often be a very good thing. And that can often be a very good thing. And there's research showing that, you know, there's research showing that, you know, there's research showing that, you know, generally couples who feel like they generally couples who feel like they generally couples who feel like they have couple friends and are embedded in have couple friends and are embedded in have couple friends and are embedded in networks like that that that generally networks like that that that generally networks like that that that generally tends to go well on average. Um so yeah, tends to go well on average. Um so yeah, tends to go well on average. Um so yeah, I would think about it that way. It's I would think about it that way. It's I would think about it that way. It's like you can feel that you have the like you can feel that you have the like you can feel that you have the support of the people around you without support of the people around you without support of the people around you without directly asking directly asking directly asking for their assessment of your for their assessment of your for their assessment of your relationship because the reality is relationship because the reality is relationship because the reality is other people don't know. And this is other people don't know. And this is other people don't know. And this is hard as a judge because when I encounter hard as a judge because when I encounter hard as a judge because when I encounter couples and I have friends who are in couples and I have friends who are in couples and I have friends who are in relationships, it is so tempting to look relationships, it is so tempting to look relationships, it is so tempting to look at that relationship and think like, at that relationship and think like, at that relationship and think like, well, man, like she shouldn't have done well, man, like she shouldn't have done well, man, like she shouldn't have done that or I don't know if if I were her, I that or I don't know if if I were her, I that or I don't know if if I were her, I wouldn't stand for this. But I'm not in wouldn't stand for this. But I'm not in wouldn't stand for this. But I'm not in that relationship. So unless you are a that relationship. So unless you are a that relationship. So unless you are a therapist and they're coming to you for therapist and they're coming to you for therapist and they're coming to you for therapy, I find it useful to try to therapy, I find it useful to try to therapy, I find it useful to try to resist that impulse because a resist that impulse because a resist that impulse because a relationship is this vast deep store of relationship is this vast deep store of relationship is this vast deep store of information that two people have and information that two people have and information that two people have and often we're not privy to what's really often we're not privy to what's really often we're not privy to what's really going on there. going on there. going on there. >> I'm going back to junior high school >> I'm going back to junior high school >> I'm going back to junior high school again and I can remember at this one again and I can remember at this one again and I can remember at this one game I hope this isn't dramatic. game I hope this isn't dramatic. game I hope this isn't dramatic. >> No, no, it's not. Not at all. But we had >> No, no, it's not. Not at all. But we had >> No, no, it's not. Not at all. But we had this uh all girls school in our in our this uh all girls school in our in our this uh all girls school in our in our town, Castilea School, which was a town, Castilea School, which was a town, Castilea School, which was a boarding school. And so their dances boarding school. And so their dances boarding school. And so their dances were the best because they'd invite were the best because they'd invite were the best because they'd invite people from other schools, but all the people from other schools, but all the people from other schools, but all the >> guys were really excited to go, right? >> guys were really excited to go, right? >> guys were really excited to go, right? Cuz the numbers were really like worked Cuz the numbers were really like worked Cuz the numbers were really like worked out really well in our favorite women out really well in our favorite women out really well in our favorite women and and and boys and girls in our and and and boys and girls in our and and and boys and girls in our school, right? Would go to these dances. school, right? Would go to these dances. school, right? Would go to these dances. But that means you just have like an But that means you just have like an But that means you just have like an outsized pool of so everyone got someone outsized pool of so everyone got someone outsized pool of so everyone got someone to dance with at some point. This is to dance with at some point. This is to dance with at some point. This is what mattered in the seventh grade, what mattered in the seventh grade, what mattered in the seventh grade, right? But there were these people I had right? But there were these people I had right? But there were these people I had to say there were these individuals who to say there were these individuals who to say there were these individuals who were not going through the admittedly were not going through the admittedly were not going through the admittedly like tense challenge of like tense challenge of like tense challenge of >> first dance, first slow dance. This was >> first dance, first slow dance. This was >> first dance, first slow dance. This was before phones and it was tense then too. before phones and it was tense then too. before phones and it was tense then too. >> And they weren't doing any of that. What >> And they weren't doing any of that. What >> And they weren't doing any of that. What were they doing? They were running were they doing? They were running were they doing? They were running around telling people about who was around telling people about who was around telling people about who was doing what and who was doing that. And I doing what and who was doing that. And I doing what and who was doing that. And I remember thinking at the time, I mean, remember thinking at the time, I mean, remember thinking at the time, I mean, I'm no psychologist then or now, but I'm no psychologist then or now, but I'm no psychologist then or now, but thinking like they're avoiding the whole thinking like they're avoiding the whole thinking like they're avoiding the whole thing. Yeah, this is like going to a thing. Yeah, this is like going to a thing. Yeah, this is like going to a soccer game and instead of playing soccer game and instead of playing soccer game and instead of playing soccer, they're like critiquing people soccer, they're like critiquing people soccer, they're like critiquing people from the sidelines cuz it's a lot easier from the sidelines cuz it's a lot easier from the sidelines cuz it's a lot easier to do that than to actually get out to do that than to actually get out to do that than to actually get out there and risk and risk miss, you know, there and risk and risk miss, you know, there and risk and risk miss, you know, like being the goalie that lets the the like being the goalie that lets the the like being the goalie that lets the the winning shot through. And I remember winning shot through. And I remember winning shot through. And I remember thinking like these people are really uh thinking like these people are really uh thinking like these people are really uh really corrosive. really corrosive. really corrosive. >> Um, one or two in particular, I don't >> Um, one or two in particular, I don't >> Um, one or two in particular, I don't know what ever became of them. know what ever became of them. know what ever became of them. Hopefully, they're doing well in their Hopefully, they're doing well in their Hopefully, they're doing well in their lives. They got over this. But lives. They got over this. But lives. They got over this. But >> those people exist throughout life. >> those people exist throughout life. >> those people exist throughout life. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Meaning they're rarely the people that >> Meaning they're rarely the people that >> Meaning they're rarely the people that are happy in their own relationship are happy in their own relationship are happy in their own relationship life. Now, I have to say it's probably a life. Now, I have to say it's probably a life. Now, I have to say it's probably a Y chromosome link disorder, but I assume Y chromosome link disorder, but I assume Y chromosome link disorder, but I assume that my friends who are in male friends that my friends who are in male friends that my friends who are in male friends who are in relationship. who are in relationship. who are in relationship. If they're still in the relationship If they're still in the relationship If they're still in the relationship that it's going great. that it's going great. that it's going great. >> That's funny. >> That's funny. >> That's funny. >> There's not a lot of feedback. Like >> There's not a lot of feedback. Like >> There's not a lot of feedback. Like there's not a whole lot of feedback there's not a whole lot of feedback there's not a whole lot of feedback exchange. That said, if something were exchange. That said, if something were exchange. That said, if something were really like really off, I assume that really like really off, I assume that really like really off, I assume that they would bring it up, but probably not they would bring it up, but probably not they would bring it up, but probably not to me. like there's I do think that to me. like there's I do think that to me. like there's I do think that there's probably a sex difference here there's probably a sex difference here there's probably a sex difference here and these things are changing now, but I and these things are changing now, but I and these things are changing now, but I think that there's not a lot of sitting think that there's not a lot of sitting think that there's not a lot of sitting around talking about how well or poorly around talking about how well or poorly around talking about how well or poorly the relationship is going. And so like, the relationship is going. And so like, the relationship is going. And so like, you know, you ask about somebody's you know, you ask about somebody's you know, you ask about somebody's spouse like, "How are they doing?" And spouse like, "How are they doing?" And spouse like, "How are they doing?" And they go, "Yeah, great." Like we did this they go, "Yeah, great." Like we did this they go, "Yeah, great." Like we did this this weekend. There's not a whole lot this weekend. There's not a whole lot this weekend. There's not a whole lot of, "Yeah, we we had this one moment of of, "Yeah, we we had this one moment of of, "Yeah, we we had this one moment of exchange that was kind of sticky. Can I exchange that was kind of sticky. Can I exchange that was kind of sticky. Can I get your input on it?" Like that's not get your input on it?" Like that's not get your input on it?" Like that's not happening. That's just not happening. At happening. That's just not happening. At happening. That's just not happening. At least not in my life. I'm glad you least not in my life. I'm glad you least not in my life. I'm glad you brought up these gender differences brought up these gender differences brought up these gender differences because I think you're hitting on one because I think you're hitting on one because I think you're hitting on one that at least again as a relationships that at least again as a relationships that at least again as a relationships researcher I would sit here and say I researcher I would sit here and say I researcher I would sit here and say I think this is the big one. And the big think this is the big one. And the big think this is the big one. And the big one is that women generally are better one is that women generally are better one is that women generally are better at cultivating social support from all at cultivating social support from all at cultivating social support from all corners of their lives, not just their corners of their lives, not just their corners of their lives, not just their romantic partner. Whereas for men, it's romantic partner. Whereas for men, it's romantic partner. Whereas for men, it's largely their romantic partner. That's largely their romantic partner. That's largely their romantic partner. That's where they're getting most of their where they're getting most of their where they're getting most of their support, intimacy needs met. Probably support, intimacy needs met. Probably support, intimacy needs met. Probably the person who at least for a while is the person who at least for a while is the person who at least for a while is mostly in their corner. And this is why mostly in their corner. And this is why mostly in their corner. And this is why you see across the full range of the arc you see across the full range of the arc you see across the full range of the arc of a relationship that men are always a of a relationship that men are always a of a relationship that men are always a little bit more eager than women. little bit more eager than women. little bit more eager than women. >> Eager in what sense? >> Eager in what sense? >> Eager in what sense? >> Eager in in all the ways. I want to be >> Eager in in all the ways. I want to be >> Eager in in all the ways. I want to be in this relationship in the first place. in this relationship in the first place. in this relationship in the first place. I'm more likely to say I love you first. I'm more likely to say I love you first. I'm more likely to say I love you first. I'm more I'm more likely to want to be I'm more I'm more likely to want to be I'm more I'm more likely to want to be exclusive. I'm more likely to want to exclusive. I'm more likely to want to exclusive. I'm more likely to want to take things to the next level. take things to the next level. take things to the next level. >> Men are more willing to do that. >> Men are more willing to do that. >> Men are more willing to do that. >> Men's counter current to all this stuff >> Men's counter current to all this stuff >> Men's counter current to all this stuff about men being non-committal. about men being non-committal. about men being non-committal. >> Yeah. Right. So like I don't uh I don't >> Yeah. Right. So like I don't uh I don't >> Yeah. Right. So like I don't uh I don't this is what there's like new review this is what there's like new review this is what there's like new review papers on this that are really papers on this that are really papers on this that are really compelling and it's like kind of the compelling and it's like kind of the compelling and it's like kind of the same effect size across the board which same effect size across the board which same effect size across the board which is how we talk about you know how big is is how we talk about you know how big is is how we talk about you know how big is the sex difference? You know, it's it's the sex difference? You know, it's it's the sex difference? You know, it's it's mediumsiz, but it's just right there all mediumsiz, but it's just right there all mediumsiz, but it's just right there all the way through through breaking up. Who the way through through breaking up. Who the way through through breaking up. Who who wants who's more likely to want to who wants who's more likely to want to who wants who's more likely to want to break up? It's women who are more likely break up? It's women who are more likely break up? It's women who are more likely to want to break up. Men are more likely to want to break up. Men are more likely to want to break up. Men are more likely to be thinking about their exes. to be thinking about their exes. to be thinking about their exes. >> And the the not while they're in a >> And the the not while they're in a >> And the the not while they're in a relationship. relationship. relationship. >> Right. Right. Right. Not while they're >> Right. Right. Right. Not while they're >> Right. Right. Right. Not while they're in a relationship. Right. Now it's over. in a relationship. Right. Now it's over. in a relationship. Right. Now it's over. >> That's the meme. You know, I went >> That's the meme. You know, I went >> That's the meme. You know, I went online. The meme is like, who's he online. The meme is like, who's he online. The meme is like, who's he thinking about? Who's Okay. Yeah. thinking about? Who's Okay. Yeah. thinking about? Who's Okay. Yeah. Exactly. The reason put forward for Exactly. The reason put forward for Exactly. The reason put forward for this, and I find it very compelling, is this, and I find it very compelling, is this, and I find it very compelling, is that that that That's because men just don't quite have That's because men just don't quite have That's because men just don't quite have their social lives put together in the their social lives put together in the their social lives put together in the same way that women do. Meaning they same way that women do. Meaning they same way that women do. Meaning they don't have a lot of male friends or don't have a lot of male friends or don't have a lot of male friends or here. By the way, I want to put up a here. By the way, I want to put up a here. By the way, I want to put up a disclaimer at the beginning. I should disclaimer at the beginning. I should disclaimer at the beginning. I should have said this to make the conversation have said this to make the conversation have said this to make the conversation more fluid. We're framing everything in more fluid. We're framing everything in more fluid. We're framing everything in the context of heterosexual pairings, the context of heterosexual pairings, the context of heterosexual pairings, but I I think it's fair to assume that but I I think it's fair to assume that but I I think it's fair to assume that this would also extend to homosexual this would also extend to homosexual this would also extend to homosexual pairings. pairings. pairings. >> I think it would >> I think it would >> I think it would >> in in many ways. But >> in in many ways. But >> in in many ways. But >> men have friends. Yeah, >> men have friends. Yeah, >> men have friends. Yeah, >> I realize activity based friendships >> I realize activity based friendships >> I realize activity based friendships are, you know, kind of the the dominant are, you know, kind of the the dominant are, you know, kind of the the dominant theme. theme. theme. >> Men not getting having connection in >> Men not getting having connection in >> Men not getting having connection in other things. other things. other things. >> You know, is it could it be that the >> You know, is it could it be that the >> You know, is it could it be that the like the connection that I feel to my like the connection that I feel to my like the connection that I feel to my male friends and co-workers is is very male friends and co-workers is is very male friends and co-workers is is very deep. deep. deep. >> They're important to me. They're like >> They're important to me. They're like >> They're important to me. They're like family to me by now. We spend so much family to me by now. We spend so much family to me by now. We spend so much time together. time together. time together. >> So, it feels connected. >> So, it feels connected. >> So, it feels connected. >> It's just but it's a very different kind >> It's just but it's a very different kind >> It's just but it's a very different kind of um I don't ever think of the word of um I don't ever think of the word of um I don't ever think of the word intimacy. I think of trust. intimacy. I think of trust. intimacy. I think of trust. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I'm not trying to just, you know, >> And I'm not trying to just, you know, >> And I'm not trying to just, you know, like be, you know, put up a wall to my like be, you know, put up a wall to my like be, you know, put up a wall to my whatever feminine traits I happen to whatever feminine traits I happen to whatever feminine traits I happen to harbor, you know, like I I I'm I'm cool harbor, you know, like I I I'm I'm cool harbor, you know, like I I I'm I'm cool with that. I'm good with the idea that I with that. I'm good with the idea that I with that. I'm good with the idea that I have emotions and that I have needs and have emotions and that I have needs and have emotions and that I have needs and stuff, but I but I think it it just stuff, but I but I think it it just stuff, but I but I think it it just makes good intuitive sense to me that if makes good intuitive sense to me that if makes good intuitive sense to me that if I have something that I'm really that I I have something that I'm really that I I have something that I'm really that I want input on that's of a more like has want input on that's of a more like has want input on that's of a more like has a more of an emotional undercurrent that a more of an emotional undercurrent that a more of an emotional undercurrent that I would bring that to my romantic I would bring that to my romantic I would bring that to my romantic partner. So, here's the question I would partner. So, here's the question I would partner. So, here's the question I would pose and I would be clear. I'm not a pose and I would be clear. I'm not a pose and I would be clear. I'm not a therapist. I'm a scientist. But I would therapist. I'm a scientist. But I would therapist. I'm a scientist. But I would I would ask you this. I would ask you this. I would ask you this. If something went wrong, do you feel If something went wrong, do you feel If something went wrong, do you feel like you have a sense that there are like you have a sense that there are like you have a sense that there are other people in your life and not your other people in your life and not your other people in your life and not your partner but other people that you could partner but other people that you could partner but other people that you could go to if you needed to? go to if you needed to? go to if you needed to? >> Definitely. >> Definitely. >> Definitely. >> See, that is the essence of social >> See, that is the essence of social >> See, that is the essence of social support. It's actually not literally do support. It's actually not literally do support. It's actually not literally do you take people up on it. It's do you you take people up on it. It's do you you take people up on it. It's do you kind of have a vague sense that people kind of have a vague sense that people kind of have a vague sense that people are around and that's the part that are around and that's the part that are around and that's the part that matters. That's the part that gives us matters. That's the part that gives us matters. That's the part that gives us the health and well-being benefits. It's the health and well-being benefits. It's the health and well-being benefits. It's like a bank account you never have to like a bank account you never have to like a bank account you never have to dip into. It just gives you the sense to dip into. It just gives you the sense to dip into. It just gives you the sense to dip into it. dip into it. dip into it. >> Yeah. [laughter] Right. Right. There you >> Yeah. [laughter] Right. Right. There you >> Yeah. [laughter] Right. Right. There you go. go. go. >> Luckily, it's a vast account. I try not >> Luckily, it's a vast account. I try not >> Luckily, it's a vast account. I try not to make too many withdrawals on it. to make too many withdrawals on it. to make too many withdrawals on it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, just the feeling that it's there is >> So, just the feeling that it's there is >> So, just the feeling that it's there is really the core component. And I think really the core component. And I think really the core component. And I think there are a lot of men, not you and not there are a lot of men, not you and not there are a lot of men, not you and not me, but a lot of men out there that me, but a lot of men out there that me, but a lot of men out there that don't feel like they have that social don't feel like they have that social don't feel like they have that social support bank account, support bank account, support bank account, >> like a close male friend or female >> like a close male friend or female >> like a close male friend or female friend or female friendly platonic or friend or female friendly platonic or friend or female friendly platonic or family for that matter. I mean, you family for that matter. I mean, you family for that matter. I mean, you know, who's who's more likely to like know, who's who's more likely to like know, who's who's more likely to like lose touch with siblings? I I I'm lose touch with siblings? I I I'm lose touch with siblings? I I I'm willing to bet that that's more likely willing to bet that that's more likely willing to bet that that's more likely to be men, too. So, I think this is part to be men, too. So, I think this is part to be men, too. So, I think this is part of like the modern challenge of of like the modern challenge of of like the modern challenge of masculinity that that that worries me masculinity that that that worries me masculinity that that that worries me that I point to like I want to help men that I point to like I want to help men that I point to like I want to help men at least have that sense. I think they at least have that sense. I think they at least have that sense. I think they can cultivate it through all the can cultivate it through all the can cultivate it through all the activity- based things that you describe activity- based things that you describe activity- based things that you describe and like I did that myself throughout my and like I did that myself throughout my and like I did that myself throughout my 20s and 30s. Like I could not count the 20s and 30s. Like I could not count the 20s and 30s. Like I could not count the number of kickball and softball teams number of kickball and softball teams number of kickball and softball teams that I participated in. And I did that that I participated in. And I did that that I participated in. And I did that not because I wanted support. I don't not because I wanted support. I don't not because I wanted support. I don't think I ever got emotional and cried in think I ever got emotional and cried in think I ever got emotional and cried in front of any of those guys, but I knew front of any of those guys, but I knew front of any of those guys, but I knew they were there and that if I ever had they were there and that if I ever had they were there and that if I ever had to go to that, I I could. You I'm to go to that, I I could. You I'm to go to that, I I could. You I'm talking about memes and internet themes talking about memes and internet themes talking about memes and internet themes and I have to be careful doing that and I have to be careful doing that and I have to be careful doing that because I don't want to put too much because I don't want to put too much because I don't want to put too much weight on the uh the direction of those weight on the uh the direction of those weight on the uh the direction of those things and what they really mean. And things and what they really mean. And things and what they really mean. And the science is what I'm interested in. the science is what I'm interested in. the science is what I'm interested in. But, you know, I think um most guys But, you know, I think um most guys But, you know, I think um most guys would probably say that that scene in would probably say that that scene in would probably say that that scene in that movie, The Town, where uh Ben that movie, The Town, where uh Ben that movie, The Town, where uh Ben Affleck walks in and says, you know, Affleck walks in and says, you know, Affleck walks in and says, you know, listen, listen, listen, yep, we got to do something. People are yep, we got to do something. People are yep, we got to do something. People are going to get hurt. We got to do this. going to get hurt. We got to do this. going to get hurt. We got to do this. And you know, like, and you can't talk And you know, like, and you can't talk And you know, like, and you can't talk to anybody. And his friend's only to anybody. And his friend's only to anybody. And his friend's only response is who's driving. response is who's driving. response is who's driving. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is is kind of like the essence of what a >> Is is kind of like the essence of what a >> Is is kind of like the essence of what a lot of men want and kind of idealize lot of men want and kind of idealize lot of men want and kind of idealize male friendship as. Like, are we got to male friendship as. Like, are we got to male friendship as. Like, are we got to go bury a body or create one? And go bury a body or create one? And go bury a body or create one? And there's it's just that it's the loyalty. there's it's just that it's the loyalty. there's it's just that it's the loyalty. It's the trust. A lot's encapsulated in It's the trust. A lot's encapsulated in It's the trust. A lot's encapsulated in that. It's a bad quote unquote badass that. It's a bad quote unquote badass that. It's a bad quote unquote badass scene, right? But they're about to do scene, right? But they're about to do scene, right? But they're about to do something real bad. I recommend that, something real bad. I recommend that, something real bad. I recommend that, right? That's not the friend test you right? That's not the friend test you right? That's not the friend test you want. I know people have used that as want. I know people have used that as want. I know people have used that as the friend test and they paid dearly for the friend test and they paid dearly for the friend test and they paid dearly for it. Right. But the point is that friends it. Right. But the point is that friends it. Right. But the point is that friends who aren't going to ask too many who aren't going to ask too many who aren't going to ask too many questions that they can hold in the questions that they can hold in the questions that they can hold in the center of their um mind without any long center of their um mind without any long center of their um mind without any long preamble that your friend needs preamble that your friend needs preamble that your friend needs something and you'll do whatever it is something and you'll do whatever it is something and you'll do whatever it is that they need because you love them. that they need because you love them. that they need because you love them. >> I think that that's what's the deeper >> I think that that's what's the deeper >> I think that that's what's the deeper layer of it. layer of it. layer of it. I'm realizing there I have this like I'm realizing there I have this like I'm realizing there I have this like sense that there's a a big contradiction sense that there's a a big contradiction sense that there's a a big contradiction not in the scientific literature but in not in the scientific literature but in not in the scientific literature but in the public perception the public perception the public perception >> which is this I feel like one common >> which is this I feel like one common >> which is this I feel like one common narrative these days is narrative these days is narrative these days is >> look men failed they just failed like >> look men failed they just failed like >> look men failed they just failed like they didn't step up right they weren't they didn't step up right they weren't they didn't step up right they weren't committal you know we have to take care committal you know we have to take care committal you know we have to take care of them they live much longer in a of them they live much longer in a of them they live much longer in a relationship we die much earlier relationship we die much earlier relationship we die much earlier >> that's one narrative that you hear a lot >> that's one narrative that you hear a lot >> that's one narrative that you hear a lot about. It's a scary narrative, right? about. It's a scary narrative, right? about. It's a scary narrative, right? >> Because you also hear the narrative, >> Because you also hear the narrative, >> Because you also hear the narrative, yeah, like women are just uh very yeah, like women are just uh very yeah, like women are just uh very extractive. They'll trade up. You know extractive. They'll trade up. You know extractive. They'll trade up. You know how unfortunately your friend dated your how unfortunately your friend dated your how unfortunately your friend dated your uh then they you they broke up. She uh then they you they broke up. She uh then they you they broke up. She broke up with you first. broke up with you first. broke up with you first. >> Right. Right. But, you know, a lot of >> Right. Right. But, you know, a lot of >> Right. Right. But, you know, a lot of the things that come into play like the the things that come into play like the the things that come into play like the Coldplay concert affair that got went Coldplay concert affair that got went Coldplay concert affair that got went viral was about this woman and you know, viral was about this woman and you know, viral was about this woman and you know, and a lot of it was pointed at her, him and a lot of it was pointed at her, him and a lot of it was pointed at her, him too, but you know, it was like too, but you know, it was like too, but you know, it was like >> a lot was made of this thing that does >> a lot was made of this thing that does >> a lot was made of this thing that does happen. happen. happen. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That there's this notion like, well, who >> That there's this notion like, well, who >> That there's this notion like, well, who would actually pair up with their, you would actually pair up with their, you would actually pair up with their, you know, their female friend? A woman know, their female friend? A woman know, their female friend? A woman pairing up with a female friend's pairing up with a female friend's pairing up with a female friend's husband or brother. There's a lot of husband or brother. There's a lot of husband or brother. There's a lot of that. And you never know how much of that. And you never know how much of that. And you never know how much of this is being these narratives are being this is being these narratives are being this is being these narratives are being fed. So, I feel like now we're at this fed. So, I feel like now we're at this fed. So, I feel like now we're at this point that seems to be resolving a point that seems to be resolving a point that seems to be resolving a little bit, but we've been at this point little bit, but we've been at this point little bit, but we've been at this point where there are these two camps and I where there are these two camps and I where there are these two camps and I saw something on um Twitter X some time saw something on um Twitter X some time saw something on um Twitter X some time ago and it just like stopped me in my ago and it just like stopped me in my ago and it just like stopped me in my tracks which said the way you destroy a tracks which said the way you destroy a tracks which said the way you destroy a society is to get the men and the women society is to get the men and the women society is to get the men and the women to hate each other and maybe I would to hate each other and maybe I would to hate each other and maybe I would just underwrite distrust each other. just underwrite distrust each other. just underwrite distrust each other. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. And so >> Right. And so >> Right. And so >> we need to move through this. I'm not >> we need to move through this. I'm not >> we need to move through this. I'm not actually asking you to solve it but what actually asking you to solve it but what actually asking you to solve it but what do the data say? For instance, if we do the data say? For instance, if we do the data say? For instance, if we were to look at dating apps and I ask, were to look at dating apps and I ask, were to look at dating apps and I ask, do you think that the dynamics on dating do you think that the dynamics on dating do you think that the dynamics on dating apps, the algorithms, which are clearly apps, the algorithms, which are clearly apps, the algorithms, which are clearly designed to make the company's money? designed to make the company's money? designed to make the company's money? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Do you think those are more femaledriven >> Do you think those are more femaledriven >> Do you think those are more femaledriven algorithms or maledriven algorithms? Not algorithms or maledriven algorithms? Not algorithms or maledriven algorithms? Not meaning who runs the companies. We know meaning who runs the companies. We know meaning who runs the companies. We know the answer to that the answer to that the answer to that >> for the most part. The question is, do >> for the most part. The question is, do >> for the most part. The question is, do you think that the apps are trying to you think that the apps are trying to you think that the apps are trying to optimize for more women to come to them optimize for more women to come to them optimize for more women to come to them or for more men to come to them and stay or for more men to come to them and stay or for more men to come to them and stay there? Because the theory is always kind there? Because the theory is always kind there? Because the theory is always kind of launch in the opposite direction. And of launch in the opposite direction. And of launch in the opposite direction. And if that wasn't clear, um I'm just if that wasn't clear, um I'm just if that wasn't clear, um I'm just wondering who's who's got the power. My wondering who's who's got the power. My wondering who's who's got the power. My understanding now again, the dating apps understanding now again, the dating apps understanding now again, the dating apps are hard to decipher because like these are hard to decipher because like these are hard to decipher because like these companies don't share data with us. I've companies don't share data with us. I've companies don't share data with us. I've worked with some matchmaking companies worked with some matchmaking companies worked with some matchmaking companies data. They're more interested in data. They're more interested in data. They're more interested in generally in collaborating with generally in collaborating with generally in collaborating with scientists because they've they got to scientists because they've they got to scientists because they've they got to make people on dates happy. They don't make people on dates happy. They don't make people on dates happy. They don't work on engagement, they work on happy work on engagement, they work on happy work on engagement, they work on happy dates, right? dates, right? dates, right? >> So, they're more interested in talking >> So, they're more interested in talking >> So, they're more interested in talking to scientists. to scientists. to scientists. >> But I think when your goal is getting >> But I think when your goal is getting >> But I think when your goal is getting users and getting engagement, users and getting engagement, users and getting engagement, >> what you're probably trying to do is >> what you're probably trying to do is >> what you're probably trying to do is bring more women in because my bring more women in because my bring more women in because my understanding is that there's more men understanding is that there's more men understanding is that there's more men on the apps. Yeah, I think so. I what I on the apps. Yeah, I think so. I what I on the apps. Yeah, I think so. I what I don't know and I don't know if anybody don't know and I don't know if anybody don't know and I don't know if anybody knows other than the people at these knows other than the people at these knows other than the people at these companies is like okay but how many of companies is like okay but how many of companies is like okay but how many of those apps are in use and how many those apps are in use and how many those apps are in use and how many people you know regular users I'm not people you know regular users I'm not people you know regular users I'm not sure. So you got to bring more women in sure. So you got to bring more women in sure. So you got to bring more women in but again engagement is the goal right I but again engagement is the goal right I but again engagement is the goal right I mean that's what the apps want you mean that's what the apps want you mean that's what the apps want you spending time on it and then they want spending time on it and then they want spending time on it and then they want you to get the fancier features. So is you to get the fancier features. So is you to get the fancier features. So is that going to be more geared toward men? that going to be more geared toward men? that going to be more geared toward men? It it might be, but I'm kind of It it might be, but I'm kind of It it might be, but I'm kind of speculating here. I expect that when speculating here. I expect that when speculating here. I expect that when you're trying to create an app for you're trying to create an app for you're trying to create an app for heterosexual men and women, you're going heterosexual men and women, you're going heterosexual men and women, you're going to have to somehow marry those two to have to somehow marry those two to have to somehow marry those two challenges. And look, one of the bigger challenges. And look, one of the bigger challenges. And look, one of the bigger gender differences that we see in the gender differences that we see in the gender differences that we see in the whole realm of sex and relationships is whole realm of sex and relationships is whole realm of sex and relationships is in swiping behavior. the fact that women in swiping behavior. the fact that women in swiping behavior. the fact that women will swipe yes on like 5% of the men will swipe yes on like 5% of the men will swipe yes on like 5% of the men they see, but men swipe yes at about they see, but men swipe yes at about they see, but men swipe yes at about 50/50. But that fits the kind of 50/50. But that fits the kind of 50/50. But that fits the kind of evolutionary quote unquote narrative evolutionary quote unquote narrative evolutionary quote unquote narrative like men being less selective, wanting like men being less selective, wanting like men being less selective, wanting to spread their to spread their to spread their >> their DNA, this kind of thing. I mean, >> their DNA, this kind of thing. I mean, >> their DNA, this kind of thing. I mean, >> to my mind, that whole thing around like >> to my mind, that whole thing around like >> to my mind, that whole thing around like men want to spread their DNA. Okay. Like men want to spread their DNA. Okay. Like men want to spread their DNA. Okay. Like I believe in in evolutionary biology, I believe in in evolutionary biology, I believe in in evolutionary biology, sure, but there's a lot of modern sure, but there's a lot of modern sure, but there's a lot of modern features that make like accountability features that make like accountability features that make like accountability for offspring and things like it's not for offspring and things like it's not for offspring and things like it's not like men can run around just having kids like men can run around just having kids like men can run around just having kids with anyone and and afford all of that, with anyone and and afford all of that, with anyone and and afford all of that, right? It's I mean, you know, we were right? It's I mean, you know, we were right? It's I mean, you know, we were talking earlier the sort of like two talking earlier the sort of like two talking earlier the sort of like two models. There's like the there's like models. There's like the there's like models. There's like the there's like the Genghask Khan ideal within this the Genghask Khan ideal within this the Genghask Khan ideal within this evolutionary evolutionary evolutionary >> biology model and then there's, you >> biology model and then there's, you >> biology model and then there's, you know, kind of like where are we now? I know, kind of like where are we now? I know, kind of like where are we now? I mean, I don't think anyone mean, I don't think anyone mean, I don't think anyone with the exception of some very wealthy with the exception of some very wealthy with the exception of some very wealthy people who who have kids with lots and people who who have kids with lots and people who who have kids with lots and lots of people and clearly can afford lots of people and clearly can afford lots of people and clearly can afford it, it, it, >> I don't think anyone's thinking they're >> I don't think anyone's thinking they're >> I don't think anyone's thinking they're going to go out and just have kids with going to go out and just have kids with going to go out and just have kids with as many people as they possibly can, as many people as they possibly can, as many people as they possibly can, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And so what what's so interesting about >> And so what what's so interesting about >> And so what what's so interesting about these gendered dynamics is that from my these gendered dynamics is that from my these gendered dynamics is that from my perspective, they tend to get the perspective, they tend to get the perspective, they tend to get the largest the biggest gulf between men and largest the biggest gulf between men and largest the biggest gulf between men and women in the situations that are the women in the situations that are the women in the situations that are the weirdest. So, for example, we this is weirdest. So, for example, we this is weirdest. So, for example, we this is and this is a real study. You recruit and this is a real study. You recruit and this is a real study. You recruit confederates. So, that means it's confederates. So, that means it's confederates. So, that means it's somebody who's working for the somebody who's working for the somebody who's working for the experimentter. And then uh they go experimentter. And then uh they go experimentter. And then uh they go around campus and they ask people, "I've around campus and they ask people, "I've around campus and they ask people, "I've noticed you around and I find you very noticed you around and I find you very noticed you around and I find you very attractive. Would you like to go to bed attractive. Would you like to go to bed attractive. Would you like to go to bed with me?" And when you do this, you find with me?" And when you do this, you find with me?" And when you do this, you find that men are about 20 times more likely that men are about 20 times more likely that men are about 20 times more likely to say yes to that request than women. to say yes to that request than women. to say yes to that request than women. Very few women say yes to this request, Very few women say yes to this request, Very few women say yes to this request, but a reasonable number of men do. All but a reasonable number of men do. All but a reasonable number of men do. All right. But the thing about that right. But the thing about that right. But the thing about that experiment, and that experiment is very experiment, and that experiment is very experiment, and that experiment is very valuable, and it's very influential, and valuable, and it's very influential, and valuable, and it's very influential, and I love at least that it was real, that I love at least that it was real, that I love at least that it was real, that people were actually out in the world people were actually out in the world people were actually out in the world doing something, even if it's a little doing something, even if it's a little doing something, even if it's a little wild and uh probably a little scary, wild and uh probably a little scary, wild and uh probably a little scary, especially for the women. But if you do especially for the women. But if you do especially for the women. But if you do this one little tweak and you say, this one little tweak and you say, this one little tweak and you say, "Yeah, okay, but how about like the last "Yeah, okay, but how about like the last "Yeah, okay, but how about like the last time that happened to you in real life, time that happened to you in real life, time that happened to you in real life, like in a context where you knew people like in a context where you knew people like in a context where you knew people and then you look at the gender and then you look at the gender and then you look at the gender difference, it's not 20 times more, it's difference, it's not 20 times more, it's difference, it's not 20 times more, it's two times more." two times more." two times more." >> What do you mean? >> What do you mean? >> What do you mean? >> It's like the last time somebody you >> It's like the last time somebody you >> It's like the last time somebody you know, like among a group of friends like know, like among a group of friends like know, like among a group of friends like ask like, "Hey, do you want to go hook ask like, "Hey, do you want to go hook ask like, "Hey, do you want to go hook up?" How much more likely then are men up?" How much more likely then are men up?" How much more likely then are men to say yes than women? And men are still to say yes than women? And men are still to say yes than women? And men are still more likely, but they're only twice as more likely, but they're only twice as more likely, but they're only twice as likely rather than 20 times as likely. likely rather than 20 times as likely. likely rather than 20 times as likely. >> So, this is not my belief, but the >> So, this is not my belief, but the >> So, this is not my belief, but the cynical um incel types on the internet cynical um incel types on the internet cynical um incel types on the internet or the just cynical guys will say will or the just cynical guys will say will or the just cynical guys will say will say, "Oh, that's because women are say, "Oh, that's because women are say, "Oh, that's because women are sleeping around more than they used to sleeping around more than they used to sleeping around more than they used to when the first experiment was done." I when the first experiment was done." I when the first experiment was done." I don't believe that's true. But I can don't believe that's true. But I can don't believe that's true. But I can tell you that would be their reflexive tell you that would be their reflexive tell you that would be their reflexive response. Like like there's so there's response. Like like there's so there's response. Like like there's so there's this ammo there these arrows that each this ammo there these arrows that each this ammo there these arrows that each side holds. one side holds the side holds. one side holds the side holds. one side holds the >> guys aren't stepping up. They're not >> guys aren't stepping up. They're not >> guys aren't stepping up. They're not they're not managing their own lives, they're not managing their own lives, they're not managing their own lives, let alone making themselves somebody who let alone making themselves somebody who let alone making themselves somebody who would be attractive as a a partner who would be attractive as a a partner who would be attractive as a a partner who could listen and do and take help take could listen and do and take help take could listen and do and take help take care of somebody because the notion of care of somebody because the notion of care of somebody because the notion of taking care is something we can talk taking care is something we can talk taking care is something we can talk about. the guys are saying, "Well, about. the guys are saying, "Well, about. the guys are saying, "Well, they're just all extractive, you know, they're just all extractive, you know, they're just all extractive, you know, that and there's deceptiveness there, that and there's deceptiveness there, that and there's deceptiveness there, and they'll trade up in a at a moment's and they'll trade up in a at a moment's and they'll trade up in a at a moment's notice, you know, and and so notice, you know, and and so notice, you know, and and so >> I mean, I don't want to feed the flames >> I mean, I don't want to feed the flames >> I mean, I don't want to feed the flames of distrust, but the data you just of distrust, but the data you just of distrust, but the data you just provided, what do they what is the provided, what do they what is the provided, what do they what is the conclusion? Like, so that's the result, conclusion? Like, so that's the result, conclusion? Like, so that's the result, but but in that paper, what's the the but but in that paper, what's the the but but in that paper, what's the the authors, you know, we the authors authors, you know, we the authors authors, you know, we the authors therefore conclude that?" So I would I therefore conclude that?" So I would I therefore conclude that?" So I would I would conclude this would conclude this would conclude this >> that approaching strangers >> that approaching strangers >> that approaching strangers is especially in a romantic or sexual is especially in a romantic or sexual is especially in a romantic or sexual context is very very tricky, very context is very very tricky, very context is very very tricky, very challenging and it is a weird modern challenging and it is a weird modern challenging and it is a weird modern skill because we actually evolved in skill because we actually evolved in skill because we actually evolved in environments where you didn't actually environments where you didn't actually environments where you didn't actually meet that many strangers. So if some meet that many strangers. So if some meet that many strangers. So if some people are adept at that, God bless. But people are adept at that, God bless. But people are adept at that, God bless. But for most of us, we had to get to know for most of us, we had to get to know for most of us, we had to get to know people over time. We needed that long people over time. We needed that long people over time. We needed that long process to make a good impression on process to make a good impression on process to make a good impression on somebody because most of us are like not somebody because most of us are like not somebody because most of us are like not all that hot and [laughter] not so all that hot and [laughter] not so all that hot and [laughter] not so appealing that people fall for us the appealing that people fall for us the appealing that people fall for us the moment we see them. And so that is what moment we see them. And so that is what moment we see them. And so that is what I would tell these hypothetical incels I would tell these hypothetical incels I would tell these hypothetical incels is I think part of the problem is that is I think part of the problem is that is I think part of the problem is that you're locked into a way of thinking you're locked into a way of thinking you're locked into a way of thinking about sex and romance that it's about a about sex and romance that it's about a about sex and romance that it's about a pickup line or it's about an initial pickup line or it's about an initial pickup line or it's about an initial impression. I think women are more impression. I think women are more impression. I think women are more interested in casual sex when it's interested in casual sex when it's interested in casual sex when it's somebody that they like kind of know and somebody that they like kind of know and somebody that they like kind of know and have been friendly with for a while and have been friendly with for a while and have been friendly with for a while and have had like some good banter with. And have had like some good banter with. And have had like some good banter with. And if you surround yourself with people, if you surround yourself with people, if you surround yourself with people, not just women, but also men, and you not just women, but also men, and you not just women, but also men, and you meet friends of friends, you're going to meet friends of friends, you're going to meet friends of friends, you're going to find more opportunities that way. So, find more opportunities that way. So, find more opportunities that way. So, it's like a shift in the mindset that we it's like a shift in the mindset that we it's like a shift in the mindset that we have about how it is we meet people and have about how it is we meet people and have about how it is we meet people and how it is we get to know them. and that how it is we get to know them. and that how it is we get to know them. and that hitting on strangers is like low yield, hitting on strangers is like low yield, hitting on strangers is like low yield, very difficult. Spending time with very difficult. Spending time with very difficult. Spending time with friends, it's time consuming, although friends, it's time consuming, although friends, it's time consuming, although it's enjoyable in and of itself. It's a it's enjoyable in and of itself. It's a it's enjoyable in and of itself. It's a timeconsuming approach, but it's timeconsuming approach, but it's timeconsuming approach, but it's ultimately going to be better for more ultimately going to be better for more ultimately going to be better for more people. Uh, you know, on on average, at people. Uh, you know, on on average, at people. Uh, you know, on on average, at least in light of the apps, social least in light of the apps, social least in light of the apps, social media, this divide, I I'm very grateful media, this divide, I I'm very grateful media, this divide, I I'm very grateful that you're bringing up this notion of that you're bringing up this notion of that you're bringing up this notion of spending time in small groups. Yeah, spending time in small groups. Yeah, spending time in small groups. Yeah, probably around certain activities. probably around certain activities. probably around certain activities. Could be pickle ball, could be a Could be pickle ball, could be a Could be pickle ball, could be a barbecue, could be I mean that's how barbecue, could be I mean that's how barbecue, could be I mean that's how people used to meet. You know, sometimes people used to meet. You know, sometimes people used to meet. You know, sometimes there's work adjacency. I mean, I think there's work adjacency. I mean, I think there's work adjacency. I mean, I think that one of the reasons the coal play that one of the reasons the coal play that one of the reasons the coal play thing went so viral is that the woman thing went so viral is that the woman thing went so viral is that the woman was head of HR. So there were a number was head of HR. So there were a number was head of HR. So there were a number of things that were ethical violations of things that were ethical violations of things that were ethical violations independent of like they tried to kind independent of like they tried to kind independent of like they tried to kind of rescue it like but they were in love of rescue it like but they were in love of rescue it like but they were in love and there were marriages were failing and there were marriages were failing and there were marriages were failing and people were like there are and people were like there are and people were like there are violations down the line on this right violations down the line on this right violations down the line on this right you know in laboratories you know in laboratories you know in laboratories >> many people cuddled up in laboratories >> many people cuddled up in laboratories >> many people cuddled up in laboratories you know my adviserss were always like you know my adviserss were always like you know my adviserss were always like really adamant that no one should do really adamant that no one should do really adamant that no one should do that I listen interesting oh yeah that I listen interesting oh yeah that I listen interesting oh yeah >> so they try to lock it down I mean in >> so they try to lock it down I mean in >> so they try to lock it down I mean in graduate school I I worked alone in the graduate school I I worked alone in the graduate school I I worked alone in the lab but my graduate adviser actually uh lab but my graduate adviser actually uh lab but my graduate adviser actually uh suggested I not even date within our suggested I not even date within our suggested I not even date within our graduate program this is peerto-peer I graduate program this is peerto-peer I graduate program this is peerto-peer I was a graduate student and for the most was a graduate student and for the most was a graduate student and for the most part I I obeyed but I was so focused on part I I obeyed but I was so focused on part I I obeyed but I was so focused on work and and I guess it happened with work and and I guess it happened with work and and I guess it happened with like you'd go to meetings you meet other like you'd go to meetings you meet other like you'd go to meetings you meet other graduate students so it was really graduate students so it was really graduate students so it was really peerto-peer peerto-peer peerto-peer >> in my post-doal laboratory my adviser >> in my post-doal laboratory my adviser >> in my post-doal laboratory my adviser was like vocal to everyone like no was like vocal to everyone like no was like vocal to everyone like no dating in the lab and of course there dating in the lab and of course there dating in the lab and of course there are certain married couples nowadays are certain married couples nowadays are certain married couples nowadays with kids with kids with kids >> several of them in fact that met in the >> several of them in fact that met in the >> several of them in fact that met in the lab just by proximity interest and who lab just by proximity interest and who lab just by proximity interest and who knows aloequading prowess who knows knows aloequading prowess who knows knows aloequading prowess who knows >> somebody out there an incredible aloquat >> somebody out there an incredible aloquat >> somebody out there an incredible aloquat that never got to attract somebody to my that never got to attract somebody to my that never got to attract somebody to my knowledge this by the way folks again knowledge this by the way folks again knowledge this by the way folks again this is not a way to attract a mate this is not a way to attract a mate this is not a way to attract a mate [laughter] unless you're a molecular [laughter] unless you're a molecular [laughter] unless you're a molecular biologist perhaps but I think that biologist perhaps but I think that biologist perhaps but I think that there's real value in this in this there's real value in this in this there's real value in this in this because unlike our earlier discussion because unlike our earlier discussion because unlike our earlier discussion where other people's input where other people's input where other people's input >> um be can be kind of toxic to the >> um be can be kind of toxic to the >> um be can be kind of toxic to the process of understanding and really process of understanding and really process of understanding and really getting in touch with one's sense of getting in touch with one's sense of getting in touch with one's sense of taste I like this person I don't this taste I like this person I don't this taste I like this person I don't this feels safe it doesn't feel safe and I'm feels safe it doesn't feel safe and I'm feels safe it doesn't feel safe and I'm not using by the way the safe language not using by the way the safe language not using by the way the safe language to be politically correct like some to be politically correct like some to be politically correct like some people feel emotionally unsafe because people feel emotionally unsafe because people feel emotionally unsafe because it's just like like if there were a it's just like like if there were a it's just like like if there were a stressful circumstance, they would stressful circumstance, they would stressful circumstance, they would dissolve into a puddle of their own dissolve into a puddle of their own dissolve into a puddle of their own tears. That's a different version of it, tears. That's a different version of it, tears. That's a different version of it, right? I think we all kind of like flit right? I think we all kind of like flit right? I think we all kind of like flit to the the extremes. But that's that's to the the extremes. But that's that's to the the extremes. But that's that's another aspect. another aspect. another aspect. >> But this is a context in which you can >> But this is a context in which you can >> But this is a context in which you can get a read of how someone behaves, their get a read of how someone behaves, their get a read of how someone behaves, their values, their reflexive levels of values, their reflexive levels of values, their reflexive levels of kindness or lack thereof with other kindness or lack thereof with other kindness or lack thereof with other people. people. people. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You get a lot of data. >> You get a lot of data. >> You get a lot of data. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> In a in a setting that >> In a in a setting that >> In a in a setting that >> you're hopefully enjoying yourself in >> you're hopefully enjoying yourself in >> you're hopefully enjoying yourself in any way. That seems very very valuable. any way. That seems very very valuable. any way. That seems very very valuable. >> So we're talking 80s movies and 90s >> So we're talking 80s movies and 90s >> So we're talking 80s movies and 90s movies already. So I'm gonna throw out movies already. So I'm gonna throw out movies already. So I'm gonna throw out Say Anything. Say Anything. Say Anything. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Do you remember Say Anything? >> Do you remember Say Anything? >> Do you remember Say Anything? Absolutely. So the John Cusack lead Absolutely. So the John Cusack lead Absolutely. So the John Cusack lead character um asks out the Ioni Sky character um asks out the Ioni Sky character um asks out the Ioni Sky character, but where they go on their character, but where they go on their character, but where they go on their first date is absolutely fascinating. first date is absolutely fascinating. first date is absolutely fascinating. They go to a party. So, they are clearly They go to a party. So, they are clearly They go to a party. So, they are clearly going together, but they don't spend the going together, but they don't spend the going together, but they don't spend the whole party like attached to each other whole party like attached to each other whole party like attached to each other and they're not interviewing each other and they're not interviewing each other and they're not interviewing each other like they met on an app. They're like they met on an app. They're like they met on an app. They're actually kind of watching each other as actually kind of watching each other as actually kind of watching each other as they float through these various groups. they float through these various groups. they float through these various groups. And sometimes they're talking to other And sometimes they're talking to other And sometimes they're talking to other folks about the fact that they're kind folks about the fact that they're kind folks about the fact that they're kind of on a date right now and how is it's of on a date right now and how is it's of on a date right now and how is it's going, but they're also talking to each going, but they're also talking to each going, but they're also talking to each other. And it's kind of a beautiful other. And it's kind of a beautiful other. And it's kind of a beautiful depiction of this old kind of lost art depiction of this old kind of lost art depiction of this old kind of lost art of you're dating, but you're also with of you're dating, but you're also with of you're dating, but you're also with other people seeing how uh they behave. other people seeing how uh they behave. other people seeing how uh they behave. And and one of the moments where I sky And and one of the moments where I sky And and one of the moments where I sky sort of you can see are starting to fall sort of you can see are starting to fall sort of you can see are starting to fall for John Cusack is when he's actually for John Cusack is when he's actually for John Cusack is when he's actually looking out for some of the other folks looking out for some of the other folks looking out for some of the other folks there like you know taking their keys there like you know taking their keys there like you know taking their keys away so they don't drive. And I I think away so they don't drive. And I I think away so they don't drive. And I I think that that idea of like watching how we that that idea of like watching how we that that idea of like watching how we behave around other people can be very behave around other people can be very behave around other people can be very powerful. powerful. powerful. >> So one of his unique qualities was that >> So one of his unique qualities was that >> So one of his unique qualities was that he's protective of other people and he's protective of other people and he's protective of other people and responsible and he put other people's responsible and he put other people's responsible and he put other people's safety ahead of his own desire to go out safety ahead of his own desire to go out safety ahead of his own desire to go out and drink that night or something. and drink that night or something. and drink that night or something. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I forgot that scene. >> Yeah. I forgot that scene. >> Yeah. I forgot that scene. >> I'm I I That's a perfect segue to what I >> I'm I I That's a perfect segue to what I >> I'm I I That's a perfect segue to what I was going to say next, but I'm brought was going to say next, but I'm brought was going to say next, but I'm brought to this mildly traumatic experience in to this mildly traumatic experience in to this mildly traumatic experience in high school where I didn't go any go to high school where I didn't go any go to high school where I didn't go any go to any high school dances early in high any high school dances early in high any high school dances early in high school. I was like really in the school. I was like really in the school. I was like really in the skateboard community, just really skateboard community, just really skateboard community, just really focused on that. And then uh it was my focused on that. And then uh it was my focused on that. And then uh it was my junior year of high school. junior year of high school. junior year of high school. >> Um the now woman, then young woman, >> Um the now woman, then young woman, >> Um the now woman, then young woman, girl, whatever, uh asked me that. It was girl, whatever, uh asked me that. It was girl, whatever, uh asked me that. It was the Satie Hawkins dance where the the the Satie Hawkins dance where the the the Satie Hawkins dance where the the girls asked the boys. This was very girls asked the boys. This was very girls asked the boys. This was very oldfashioned, right? Like I've heard oldfashioned, right? Like I've heard oldfashioned, right? Like I've heard this. It already assumes, right, that this. It already assumes, right, that this. It already assumes, right, that the guy that the guys always ask the the guy that the guys always ask the the guy that the guys always ask the girls, which was pretty much the girls, which was pretty much the girls, which was pretty much the standard. standard. standard. >> We go and um she was a year older and >> We go and um she was a year older and >> We go and um she was a year older and extremely beautiful, super kind. It extremely beautiful, super kind. It extremely beautiful, super kind. It ended up being a very long-term ended up being a very long-term ended up being a very long-term relationship. But I remember going and relationship. But I remember going and relationship. But I remember going and she had something back then where her she had something back then where her she had something back then where her hands would get really cold. hands would get really cold. hands would get really cold. >> She had this thing where it was a cold >> She had this thing where it was a cold >> She had this thing where it was a cold night. And so she went into the night. And so she went into the night. And so she went into the bathroom. She said, "I'd have to like bathroom. She said, "I'd have to like bathroom. She said, "I'd have to like warm my hands." She was in there a warm my hands." She was in there a warm my hands." She was in there a really long time. And I'm standing out really long time. And I'm standing out really long time. And I'm standing out there and people are coming up to me and there and people are coming up to me and there and people are coming up to me and they're like, "What are you doing here?" they're like, "What are you doing here?" they're like, "What are you doing here?" Like, "Why are you at a dance?" And I Like, "Why are you at a dance?" And I Like, "Why are you at a dance?" And I said, "So and so invited me." And no one said, "So and so invited me." And no one said, "So and so invited me." And no one believed me. They was like, "There's no believed me. They was like, "There's no believed me. They was like, "There's no chance." And I have to say, it was the chance." And I have to say, it was the chance." And I have to say, it was the most mortifying thing. [laughter] And I most mortifying thing. [laughter] And I most mortifying thing. [laughter] And I kept waiting for this moment where she kept waiting for this moment where she kept waiting for this moment where she would come out of the bathroom and like would come out of the bathroom and like would come out of the bathroom and like vindicate me. And they all kept like vindicate me. And they all kept like vindicate me. And they all kept like dissipating before she came back. She dissipating before she came back. She dissipating before she came back. She eventually came back. And I just eventually came back. And I just eventually came back. And I just remember thinking like, oh man, like remember thinking like, oh man, like remember thinking like, oh man, like nobody even and I thinking like I'm nobody even and I thinking like I'm nobody even and I thinking like I'm either completely outclassed, like either completely outclassed, like either completely outclassed, like completely outclassed or like this is completely outclassed or like this is completely outclassed or like this is one of the best opportunities that ever one of the best opportunities that ever one of the best opportunities that ever landed uh in my lap and I'm going to I'm landed uh in my lap and I'm going to I'm landed uh in my lap and I'm going to I'm going to pursue this with everything going to pursue this with everything going to pursue this with everything I've got. So I went with the second I've got. So I went with the second I've got. So I went with the second thing and anyway, we uh thing and anyway, we uh thing and anyway, we uh >> this is John Cusack enter. >> this is John Cusack enter. >> this is John Cusack enter. >> It was it was brutal. Like I had to sit >> It was it was brutal. Like I had to sit >> It was it was brutal. Like I had to sit there and like you know and like no one there and like you know and like no one there and like you know and like no one believed me. They actually thought like believed me. They actually thought like believed me. They actually thought like I just like snuck in or something like I just like snuck in or something like I just like snuck in or something like that. Anyway, that. Anyway, that. Anyway, the John Cusack example is a really good the John Cusack example is a really good the John Cusack example is a really good one because his character in that movie one because his character in that movie one because his character in that movie is a little awkward along certain is a little awkward along certain is a little awkward along certain dimensions. He's certainly not as um dimensions. He's certainly not as um dimensions. He's certainly not as um quote unquote ambitious in the typical quote unquote ambitious in the typical quote unquote ambitious in the typical sense, although he wants to be a great sense, although he wants to be a great sense, although he wants to be a great kickboxer. Kickboxing sport of the kickboxer. Kickboxing sport of the kickboxer. Kickboxing sport of the future, right? It's a great scene future, right? It's a great scene future, right? It's a great scene between him and and her dad where he's between him and and her dad where he's between him and and her dad where he's explaining what he's going to do in life explaining what he's going to do in life explaining what he's going to do in life and and not in any kind of uh fluent way and and not in any kind of uh fluent way and and not in any kind of uh fluent way >> and her family clearly has other plans >> and her family clearly has other plans >> and her family clearly has other plans for her. But it gets to this thing that for her. But it gets to this thing that for her. But it gets to this thing that I had written down because I want to ask I had written down because I want to ask I had written down because I want to ask about next which is this notion of about next which is this notion of about next which is this notion of texting in particular. So not even apps texting in particular. So not even apps texting in particular. So not even apps but let's just say it's migrated off app but let's just say it's migrated off app but let's just say it's migrated off app or people meet they exchange number and or people meet they exchange number and or people meet they exchange number and there's some texting right and this there's some texting right and this there's some texting right and this notion of of the kind of unique um notion of of the kind of unique um notion of of the kind of unique um advantage at least early on advantage at least early on advantage at least early on >> that I think can be somewhat misleading >> that I think can be somewhat misleading >> that I think can be somewhat misleading of people who are hyperverbal. Oh, of people who are hyperverbal. Oh, of people who are hyperverbal. Oh, interesting. interesting. interesting. >> And in particular among men. And so >> And in particular among men. And so >> And in particular among men. And so here's what um I think years ago when I here's what um I think years ago when I here's what um I think years ago when I was on the job market for academic was on the job market for academic was on the job market for academic science, a really fantastic science, a really fantastic science, a really fantastic neurobiologist who actually read uh ran neurobiologist who actually read uh ran neurobiologist who actually read uh ran um let's just say a very famous school um let's just say a very famous school um let's just say a very famous school in Boston's brain science center. Um in Boston's brain science center. Um in Boston's brain science center. Um they never admit the name of their they never admit the name of their they never admit the name of their school anyway. um said to me, he said, school anyway. um said to me, he said, school anyway. um said to me, he said, "You know, the worst part about the job "You know, the worst part about the job "You know, the worst part about the job search process in uh neuroscience is search process in uh neuroscience is search process in uh neuroscience is that it selects for hyperverbal people that it selects for hyperverbal people that it selects for hyperverbal people where people can present their data, where people can present their data, where people can present their data, excite people about it, present their excite people about it, present their excite people about it, present their vision." And he said, "And there's so vision." And he said, "And there's so vision." And he said, "And there's so many amazing scientists that just don't many amazing scientists that just don't many amazing scientists that just don't know how to communicate their data know how to communicate their data know how to communicate their data >> and we're selecting for someone who can >> and we're selecting for someone who can >> and we're selecting for someone who can also teach, who can also do these also teach, who can also do these also teach, who can also do these things." And I realize he's absolutely things." And I realize he's absolutely things." And I realize he's absolutely right, you know, and some people can right, you know, and some people can right, you know, and some people can overcome this, but some of the best overcome this, but some of the best overcome this, but some of the best scientists in the world, speaking isn't scientists in the world, speaking isn't scientists in the world, speaking isn't their forte. their forte. their forte. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, in the realm of text >> Okay. So, in the realm of text >> Okay. So, in the realm of text communication, there's a kind of a bias communication, there's a kind of a bias communication, there's a kind of a bias toward can somebody like a good listener toward can somebody like a good listener toward can somebody like a good listener in a face to face interaction like a guy in a face to face interaction like a guy in a face to face interaction like a guy can just sit there, listen, can just sit there, listen, can just sit there, listen, >> not interrupt, nod, maybe reflect, >> not interrupt, nod, maybe reflect, >> not interrupt, nod, maybe reflect, >> maybe reflect, tell me more. Well, that >> maybe reflect, tell me more. Well, that >> maybe reflect, tell me more. Well, that must have been interesting, hard, must have been interesting, hard, must have been interesting, hard, whatever, you know, and can convey a lot whatever, you know, and can convey a lot whatever, you know, and can convey a lot of of genuine ability to uh to of of genuine ability to uh to of of genuine ability to uh to communicate and bond communicate and bond communicate and bond >> over text, just listening >> over text, just listening >> over text, just listening >> doesn't work. In fact, if it's just >> doesn't work. In fact, if it's just >> doesn't work. In fact, if it's just like, wow, that must have been hard to like, wow, that must have been hard to like, wow, that must have been hard to like a paragraph this long, like it like a paragraph this long, like it like a paragraph this long, like it starts to fall flat. And this is where I starts to fall flat. And this is where I starts to fall flat. And this is where I think think think >> some people might be screaming, no, no, >> some people might be screaming, no, no, >> some people might be screaming, no, no, no, that's what I want. you know, but no, that's what I want. you know, but no, that's what I want. you know, but there's a strong selection process now there's a strong selection process now there's a strong selection process now for people who can communicate quickly for people who can communicate quickly for people who can communicate quickly with their thumbs, be witty in writing. with their thumbs, be witty in writing. with their thumbs, be witty in writing. >> And so the hyperverbal thing has moved >> And so the hyperverbal thing has moved >> And so the hyperverbal thing has moved to text. to text. to text. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> that's a challenge. And I do think even >> that's a challenge. And I do think even >> that's a challenge. And I do think even though some men are very hyperverbal, though some men are very hyperverbal, though some men are very hyperverbal, there is a sex difference here that we there is a sex difference here that we there is a sex difference here that we are well aware of. are well aware of. are well aware of. >> So do you think that that's skewing >> So do you think that that's skewing >> So do you think that that's skewing things? because the ability to to kind things? because the ability to to kind things? because the ability to to kind of keep to get and keep somebody's of keep to get and keep somebody's of keep to get and keep somebody's interest early on is strongly dependent interest early on is strongly dependent interest early on is strongly dependent on these days on texting, on these days on texting, on these days on texting, >> right? I think this is a really good >> right? I think this is a really good >> right? I think this is a really good point. You know, I was reminded of some point. You know, I was reminded of some point. You know, I was reminded of some work, this is early work in the like work, this is early work in the like work, this is early work in the like online interaction space that suggested online interaction space that suggested online interaction space that suggested that actually anxious people get a lot that actually anxious people get a lot that actually anxious people get a lot out of being able to communicate with a out of being able to communicate with a out of being able to communicate with a keyboard or with texting because they keyboard or with texting because they keyboard or with texting because they don't get so overwhelmed. So, this is don't get so overwhelmed. So, this is don't get so overwhelmed. So, this is probably going to be somebody who also probably going to be somebody who also probably going to be somebody who also on a first date would be having a bit of on a first date would be having a bit of on a first date would be having a bit of a tough time. So, it might be that a tough time. So, it might be that a tough time. So, it might be that actually texting for them has at least actually texting for them has at least actually texting for them has at least the advantage of reducing some of the the advantage of reducing some of the the advantage of reducing some of the anxiety because they can take a minute anxiety because they can take a minute anxiety because they can take a minute to think about what they want to say to think about what they want to say to think about what they want to say before they have to actually come out before they have to actually come out before they have to actually come out with it. But I also think you're right with it. But I also think you're right with it. But I also think you're right that the ability to be witty over text that the ability to be witty over text that the ability to be witty over text um as opposed to the kind of like um as opposed to the kind of like um as opposed to the kind of like nonverbal listening that you're nonverbal listening that you're nonverbal listening that you're describing that is going to be a special describing that is going to be a special describing that is going to be a special advantage for some people today. So it c advantage for some people today. So it c advantage for some people today. So it c it could very well be skewing things in it could very well be skewing things in it could very well be skewing things in the way that you describe. There's not the way that you describe. There's not the way that you describe. There's not great data on this either. I mean I great data on this either. I mean I great data on this either. I mean I mentioned earlier we don't have great mentioned earlier we don't have great mentioned earlier we don't have great data on like the arc of the data on like the arc of the data on like the arc of the relationship. relationship. relationship. But some of the the people that have But some of the the people that have But some of the the people that have tackled this question uh this is great tackled this question uh this is great tackled this question uh this is great researcher named Mimi Binberg at at Ohio researcher named Mimi Binberg at at Ohio researcher named Mimi Binberg at at Ohio State. And what she does is she gets State. And what she does is she gets State. And what she does is she gets couples who are together and then says, couples who are together and then says, couples who are together and then says, "Uh, let me uh let me see your texts." "Uh, let me uh let me see your texts." "Uh, let me uh let me see your texts." And then gets the whole text thread go And then gets the whole text thread go And then gets the whole text thread go with their permission all the way back with their permission all the way back with their permission all the way back to when they first started texting. And to when they first started texting. And to when they first started texting. And what you see are some cool things like what you see are some cool things like what you see are some cool things like essentially their styles of essentially their styles of essentially their styles of communicating start to like cohhere, communicating start to like cohhere, communicating start to like cohhere, right? It's like a pattern of mutual right? It's like a pattern of mutual right? It's like a pattern of mutual influence where they they get the influence where they they get the influence where they they get the similar cadence and they start using similar cadence and they start using similar cadence and they start using similar words and other things as similar words and other things as similar words and other things as they're talking to each other. Now, of they're talking to each other. Now, of they're talking to each other. Now, of course, those are the successful cases. course, those are the successful cases. course, those are the successful cases. So, what would it look like if we had So, what would it look like if we had So, what would it look like if we had the unsuccessful cases? And I think the unsuccessful cases? And I think the unsuccessful cases? And I think you're right. We would see that the you're right. We would see that the you're right. We would see that the people who can't match or can't be witty people who can't match or can't be witty people who can't match or can't be witty early on that those are the the text early on that those are the the text early on that those are the the text threads that never become couples. Um, threads that never become couples. Um, threads that never become couples. Um, so we just have to figure out how to so we just have to figure out how to so we just have to figure out how to recruit those folks to to be in our recruit those folks to to be in our recruit those folks to to be in our studies. Give us the last 10 threads of studies. Give us the last 10 threads of studies. Give us the last 10 threads of of uh, you know, dates that never went of uh, you know, dates that never went of uh, you know, dates that never went anywhere. anywhere. anywhere. >> I'd like to take a quick break and >> I'd like to take a quick break and >> I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, acknowledge one of our sponsors, acknowledge one of our sponsors, Element. Element is an electrolyte drink Element. Element is an electrolyte drink Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing that has everything you need and nothing that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, you don't. That means the electrolytes, you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper the correct ratios, but no sugar. 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Yeah, we're sort of veering towards compatibility sort of veering towards compatibility sort of veering towards compatibility when I say um you know, if I were to, when I say um you know, if I were to, when I say um you know, if I were to, you know, ask a close family member, you you know, ask a close family member, you you know, ask a close family member, you know, like what's great about the know, like what's great about the know, like what's great about the relationship you're in, uh this is a relationship you're in, uh this is a relationship you're in, uh this is a woman, and she'll be referring to her woman, and she'll be referring to her woman, and she'll be referring to her male partner in this case. She'll male partner in this case. She'll male partner in this case. She'll generally talk about the things that he generally talk about the things that he generally talk about the things that he does and the things that he is able to does and the things that he is able to does and the things that he is able to do in support that may or may not even do in support that may or may not even do in support that may or may not even require the ability to speak. Now, he's require the ability to speak. Now, he's require the ability to speak. Now, he's not aphasic, you know, um but you know, not aphasic, you know, um but you know, not aphasic, you know, um but you know, it's it's it's >> it's more about like >> it's more about like >> it's more about like >> what he does. And when we've had >> what he does. And when we've had >> what he does. And when we've had conversations on [clears throat] this conversations on [clears throat] this conversations on [clears throat] this podcast in the past about kind of podcast in the past about kind of podcast in the past about kind of relationship glue and things like that, relationship glue and things like that, relationship glue and things like that, it's like it's like, oh, that they it's like it's like, oh, that they it's like it's like, oh, that they always like, you know, always like, you know, always like, you know, >> one person always seems to like make the >> one person always seems to like make the >> one person always seems to like make the bed by the time I'm back from the bed by the time I'm back from the bed by the time I'm back from the bathroom in the morning and you're like, bathroom in the morning and you're like, bathroom in the morning and you're like, "No, my turn." And they they or the "No, my turn." And they they or the "No, my turn." And they they or the other person always sets out the coffee other person always sets out the coffee other person always sets out the coffee or some it's these the little thing or some it's these the little thing or some it's these the little thing phenomenon. Rarely is it like sometimes phenomenon. Rarely is it like sometimes phenomenon. Rarely is it like sometimes it's a note but rarely is it like it's a note but rarely is it like it's a note but rarely is it like >> yeah I love the way you know he strings >> yeah I love the way you know he strings >> yeah I love the way you know he strings together uh you know sentences or together uh you know sentences or together uh you know sentences or something like I love the way that I something like I love the way that I something like I love the way that I love the way that um you know she love the way that um you know she love the way that um you know she describes this thing you know so describes this thing you know so describes this thing you know so >> it's often about actions at least in the >> it's often about actions at least in the >> it's often about actions at least in the in the observing the qualities of the in the observing the qualities of the in the observing the qualities of the positive qualities of the male partner positive qualities of the male partner positive qualities of the male partner and that's very kind of and that's very kind of and that's very kind of >> stereotypical >> stereotypical >> stereotypical >> but I think that it just it's it's a >> but I think that it just it's it's a >> but I think that it just it's it's a kind of window in my mind into the kind of window in my mind into the kind of window in my mind into the difference between the quote unquote difference between the quote unquote difference between the quote unquote exploration and courting process, exploration and courting process, exploration and courting process, although the courting process, what although the courting process, what although the courting process, what people do arguably matters more than people do arguably matters more than people do arguably matters more than what they say, what they say, what they say, >> and the kind of long-term thing, >> and the kind of long-term thing, >> and the kind of long-term thing, >> the the consistency of of the stability >> the the consistency of of the stability >> the the consistency of of the stability of the relationship over time. of the relationship over time. of the relationship over time. >> So, I wish that, you know, it's it's a >> So, I wish that, you know, it's it's a >> So, I wish that, you know, it's it's a shame that these apps don't select for shame that these apps don't select for shame that these apps don't select for uh action. The only way to do that would uh action. The only way to do that would uh action. The only way to do that would would be something where you would say, would be something where you would say, would be something where you would say, "Okay, if you're going to sign up for "Okay, if you're going to sign up for "Okay, if you're going to sign up for this app, you know, we're going to ask this app, you know, we're going to ask this app, you know, we're going to ask you to go on at least three dates with, you to go on at least three dates with, you to go on at least three dates with, you know, anybody that you match with, you know, anybody that you match with, you know, anybody that you match with, and we want to see you dating in these and we want to see you dating in these and we want to see you dating in these very different circumstances where the very different circumstances where the very different circumstances where the point isn't always to just talk at each point isn't always to just talk at each point isn't always to just talk at each other. That also you like you got to do other. That also you like you got to do other. That also you like you got to do things together." I wish there were things together." I wish there were things together." I wish there were dates that were like assemble this IKEA dates that were like assemble this IKEA dates that were like assemble this IKEA furniture. furniture. furniture. >> Don't people still go for like a hike or >> Don't people still go for like a hike or >> Don't people still go for like a hike or go to a show? go to a show? go to a show? >> Yeah. Yeah. No, that's that that's good, >> Yeah. Yeah. No, that's that that's good, >> Yeah. Yeah. No, that's that that's good, too, cuz at least it's it's talking and too, cuz at least it's it's talking and too, cuz at least it's it's talking and interacting, but a different kind of interacting, but a different kind of interacting, but a different kind of talking and interacting. I want I want talking and interacting. I want I want talking and interacting. I want I want like physical challenges. Get out of like physical challenges. Get out of like physical challenges. Get out of this escape room, stuff like that. this escape room, stuff like that. this escape room, stuff like that. Anyway, I'm not actually handle. Anyway, I'm not actually handle. Anyway, I'm not actually handle. >> Yeah, right. You're right. Yeah. So, you >> Yeah, right. You're right. Yeah. So, you >> Yeah, right. You're right. Yeah. So, you got to be witty, but also not panic. got to be witty, but also not panic. got to be witty, but also not panic. >> Do you suggest that? Is it is it like a >> Do you suggest that? Is it is it like a >> Do you suggest that? Is it is it like a first date? first date? first date? >> I don't know. Maybe third date. >> I don't know. Maybe third date. >> I don't know. Maybe third date. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Third date sounds good for escape. I >> Third date sounds good for escape. I >> Third date sounds good for escape. I want to be clear. I've never I've only want to be clear. I've never I've only want to be clear. I've never I've only done the the escape room board games. done the the escape room board games. done the the escape room board games. >> You're just throwing people under the >> You're just throwing people under the >> You're just throwing people under the bus just to see what happens. Get to bus just to see what happens. Get to bus just to see what happens. Get to that date. Yeah. No, no, I'm just that date. Yeah. No, no, I'm just that date. Yeah. No, no, I'm just kidding. But like you know events that kidding. But like you know events that kidding. But like you know events that sporting events I mean things that are sporting events I mean things that are sporting events I mean things that are um uh that are exciting that you're um uh that are exciting that you're um uh that are exciting that you're doing together but also facilitate doing together but also facilitate doing together but also facilitate interaction I think can be really good. interaction I think can be really good. interaction I think can be really good. It is very very hard though to simulate It is very very hard though to simulate It is very very hard though to simulate the patterns of what would it be like to the patterns of what would it be like to the patterns of what would it be like to be in a long-term relationship with this be in a long-term relationship with this be in a long-term relationship with this person and the 4,000 daily person and the 4,000 daily person and the 4,000 daily responsibilities that come with that. responsibilities that come with that. responsibilities that come with that. And I think even when we are really And I think even when we are really And I think even when we are really crazy about somebody early on, we try to crazy about somebody early on, we try to crazy about somebody early on, we try to forecast what that's going to be like as forecast what that's going to be like as forecast what that's going to be like as best we can, but we really don't know. best we can, but we really don't know. best we can, but we really don't know. And I think the like the beautiful thing And I think the like the beautiful thing And I think the like the beautiful thing but also the challenge that a lot of but also the challenge that a lot of but also the challenge that a lot of relationships have is you know what you relationships have is you know what you relationships have is you know what you do is you know like you just described do is you know like you just described do is you know like you just described like okay it becomes my job to set out like okay it becomes my job to set out like okay it becomes my job to set out the coffee and it becomes your job to the coffee and it becomes your job to the coffee and it becomes your job to mow the lawn and we create this very mow the lawn and we create this very mow the lawn and we create this very elaborate structure that guides not just elaborate structure that guides not just elaborate structure that guides not just our day-to-day lives and the crap we our day-to-day lives and the crap we our day-to-day lives and the crap we have to do but it also guides how we have to do but it also guides how we have to do but it also guides how we communicate when we communicate what we communicate when we communicate what we communicate when we communicate what we communicate about. If we create a communicate about. If we create a communicate about. If we create a business together, business together, business together, that can create a relationship that that can create a relationship that that can create a relationship that starts to feel like more transactional, starts to feel like more transactional, starts to feel like more transactional, that's maybe less warm, has less that's maybe less warm, has less that's maybe less warm, has less opportunity for connection opportunity for connection opportunity for connection as opposed to creating a relationship as opposed to creating a relationship as opposed to creating a relationship that builds, you know, time for fun that builds, you know, time for fun that builds, you know, time for fun activities together, for fun activities together, for fun activities together, for fun experiences, or again, I recognize like experiences, or again, I recognize like experiences, or again, I recognize like people are stressed and often working people are stressed and often working people are stressed and often working multiple jobs, but at least when we are multiple jobs, but at least when we are multiple jobs, but at least when we are interacting, are we able to interact interacting, are we able to interact interacting, are we able to interact about the fun, silly things that brought about the fun, silly things that brought about the fun, silly things that brought us together in the first place. Um, I us together in the first place. Um, I us together in the first place. Um, I think it's it's very challenging to do think it's it's very challenging to do think it's it's very challenging to do these things. When people go to couples these things. When people go to couples these things. When people go to couples therapy and the couples therapy is therapy and the couples therapy is therapy and the couples therapy is effective, it's usually because effective, it's usually because effective, it's usually because therapists are able to help couples therapists are able to help couples therapists are able to help couples essentially like rewind all the bad essentially like rewind all the bad essentially like rewind all the bad patterns they've created and go back to patterns they've created and go back to patterns they've created and go back to when things were good. uh rediscover when things were good. uh rediscover when things were good. uh rediscover what it was that they really appreciated what it was that they really appreciated what it was that they really appreciated about each other and like recreate their about each other and like recreate their about each other and like recreate their relationship from there in a new way. relationship from there in a new way. relationship from there in a new way. But yes, many of these things are But yes, many of these things are But yes, many of these things are they're just deeply deeply hard to they're just deeply deeply hard to they're just deeply deeply hard to forecast. forecast. forecast. >> Yeah. And there's always the natural >> Yeah. And there's always the natural >> Yeah. And there's always the natural desire to want to know if one's time and desire to want to know if one's time and desire to want to know if one's time and energy is well spent. I mean it's really energy is well spent. I mean it's really energy is well spent. I mean it's really in some sense the most um important in some sense the most um important in some sense the most um important investment is time and energy of I mean investment is time and energy of I mean investment is time and energy of I mean and uh it's kind of all we have it's all and uh it's kind of all we have it's all and uh it's kind of all we have it's all we have and that's very evolutionary in we have and that's very evolutionary in we have and that's very evolutionary in its core. You talked before about this its core. You talked before about this its core. You talked before about this kind of crystal ball question or um kind of crystal ball question or um kind of crystal ball question or um probing for particular disclosures that probing for particular disclosures that probing for particular disclosures that people are willing or not willing to people are willing or not willing to people are willing or not willing to make as a make as a make as a >> as [snorts] a perhaps better indication >> as [snorts] a perhaps better indication >> as [snorts] a perhaps better indication of whether somebody is interesting or of whether somebody is interesting or of whether somebody is interesting or appropriate. Yeah. appropriate. Yeah. appropriate. Yeah. >> For you. I realize however that the >> For you. I realize however that the >> For you. I realize however that the notion that there's a like a question or notion that there's a like a question or notion that there's a like a question or a set of questions that would say green a set of questions that would say green a set of questions that would say green light light light >> is that's not true. That just can't be >> is that's not true. That just can't be >> is that's not true. That just can't be true. There's probably some answers that true. There's probably some answers that true. There's probably some answers that are red light. Everyone, you know, knows are red light. Everyone, you know, knows are red light. Everyone, you know, knows red light. Hopefully, they're paying red light. Hopefully, they're paying red light. Hopefully, they're paying attention to that, but they it's the attention to that, but they it's the attention to that, but they it's the yellow it's the yellow but it's the yellow it's the yellow but it's the yellow it's the yellow but it's the yellow lights and not knowing what yellow lights and not knowing what yellow lights and not knowing what questions to ask to see if there's a questions to ask to see if there's a questions to ask to see if there's a sort of green light path forward. Tell sort of green light path forward. Tell sort of green light path forward. Tell me what those questions are. Like, me what those questions are. Like, me what those questions are. Like, phrased differently. If two people are phrased differently. If two people are phrased differently. If two people are on a date and they have only a few on a date and they have only a few on a date and they have only a few minutes, it's kind of a speed dating minutes, it's kind of a speed dating minutes, it's kind of a speed dating type situation and they need to make a type situation and they need to make a type situation and they need to make a good assessment as to whether or not good assessment as to whether or not good assessment as to whether or not they genuinely would like to spend more they genuinely would like to spend more they genuinely would like to spend more time with the person again. time with the person again. time with the person again. uh what what are the questions they uh what what are the questions they uh what what are the questions they should ask? should ask? should ask? >> All right. So, I like the questions that >> All right. So, I like the questions that >> All right. So, I like the questions that are a little bit more offbeat. You know, are a little bit more offbeat. You know, are a little bit more offbeat. You know, what people tend to do on speed dates is what people tend to do on speed dates is what people tend to do on speed dates is they they want to find common ground they they want to find common ground they they want to find common ground quickly. You know, if it's college quickly. You know, if it's college quickly. You know, if it's college students, maybe we're going to talk students, maybe we're going to talk students, maybe we're going to talk about their major. Uh do we share a about their major. Uh do we share a about their major. Uh do we share a major? No. Uh like pivot. Uh where are major? No. Uh like pivot. Uh where are major? No. Uh like pivot. Uh where are you from? And they'll try to find you from? And they'll try to find you from? And they'll try to find something that they can bond over something that they can bond over something that they can bond over [snorts] and that can work very well. [snorts] and that can work very well. [snorts] and that can work very well. But I think the core of what we want in But I think the core of what we want in But I think the core of what we want in an initial interaction with somebody is an initial interaction with somebody is an initial interaction with somebody is to take away something that feels like to take away something that feels like to take away something that feels like it was at least a little different than it was at least a little different than it was at least a little different than all the other interactions that we have. all the other interactions that we have. all the other interactions that we have. And so sometimes what that means is And so sometimes what that means is And so sometimes what that means is going a touch deeper than people are going a touch deeper than people are going a touch deeper than people are comfortable with. Now in in 4 minutes comfortable with. Now in in 4 minutes comfortable with. Now in in 4 minutes it's tricky if you have a little bit it's tricky if you have a little bit it's tricky if you have a little bit longer like a regular evening length longer like a regular evening length longer like a regular evening length date. I really like the 36 questions date. I really like the 36 questions date. I really like the 36 questions test. Like this is the sometimes it's test. Like this is the sometimes it's test. Like this is the sometimes it's called the fast friends procedure, but called the fast friends procedure, but called the fast friends procedure, but these are questions like, you know, these are questions like, you know, these are questions like, you know, what's one thing that you've never told what's one thing that you've never told what's one thing that you've never told somebody that you've always wanted to somebody that you've always wanted to somebody that you've always wanted to tell them and what's stopping you? Or tell them and what's stopping you? Or tell them and what's stopping you? Or >> people answer that. >> people answer that. >> people answer that. >> Yeah. I mean, after if you've been >> Yeah. I mean, after if you've been >> Yeah. I mean, after if you've been hanging out with somebody for 60 to 90 hanging out with somebody for 60 to 90 hanging out with somebody for 60 to 90 minutes, that is a pretty good way to minutes, that is a pretty good way to minutes, that is a pretty good way to elicit real depth and give like both elicit real depth and give like both elicit real depth and give like both people a chance to do some reciprocal people a chance to do some reciprocal people a chance to do some reciprocal self-disclosure cuz that's what people self-disclosure cuz that's what people self-disclosure cuz that's what people want. That's what people connect over is want. That's what people connect over is want. That's what people connect over is like I've like I feel like I've just like I've like I feel like I've just like I've like I feel like I've just heard you. Maybe it's true, maybe it's heard you. Maybe it's true, maybe it's heard you. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not, but I feel like you've just told me not, but I feel like you've just told me not, but I feel like you've just told me something that you haven't told most something that you haven't told most something that you haven't told most people and maybe you haven't told people and maybe you haven't told people and maybe you haven't told anybody. I vividly remember falling for anybody. I vividly remember falling for anybody. I vividly remember falling for somebody when that moment happened. It's somebody when that moment happened. It's somebody when that moment happened. It's like I really you are telling me this. I like I really you are telling me this. I like I really you are telling me this. I I don't I don't think you've ever told I don't I don't think you've ever told I don't I don't think you've ever told anybody this before and it is such a anybody this before and it is such a anybody this before and it is such a rush. I I think like I don't know, man. rush. I I think like I don't know, man. rush. I I think like I don't know, man. The internet, it's like convince us all The internet, it's like convince us all The internet, it's like convince us all we care about is like sex and hotness. we care about is like sex and hotness. we care about is like sex and hotness. There is nothing like the rush of having There is nothing like the rush of having There is nothing like the rush of having somebody tell you something that they've somebody tell you something that they've somebody tell you something that they've never told anybody else. And again, this never told anybody else. And again, this never told anybody else. And again, this is like the stuff that gets is like the stuff that gets is like the stuff that gets relationships researchers excited relationships researchers excited relationships researchers excited because this is what we see in our data. because this is what we see in our data. because this is what we see in our data. Responsiveness, closeness, like building Responsiveness, closeness, like building Responsiveness, closeness, like building trust and all of that stuff. Now again, trust and all of that stuff. Now again, trust and all of that stuff. Now again, four minutes is really hard. Four four minutes is really hard. Four four minutes is really hard. Four minutes you just got to get a little minutes you just got to get a little minutes you just got to get a little nugget of something that you want to nugget of something that you want to nugget of something that you want to build off later. And maybe that is your build off later. And maybe that is your build off later. And maybe that is your hometown and maybe it is like, "Isn't hometown and maybe it is like, "Isn't hometown and maybe it is like, "Isn't this a weird experience that we're only this a weird experience that we're only this a weird experience that we're only going to get to chat for 4 minutes, but going to get to chat for 4 minutes, but going to get to chat for 4 minutes, but whenever there are roots to go for a whenever there are roots to go for a whenever there are roots to go for a little bit more disclosure, I usually little bit more disclosure, I usually little bit more disclosure, I usually advise that that people go for it. It it advise that that people go for it. It it advise that that people go for it. It it it will pay off on average, even if it it will pay off on average, even if it it will pay off on average, even if it can feel kind of awkward in the moment." can feel kind of awkward in the moment." can feel kind of awkward in the moment." Do you think there's uh more excitement Do you think there's uh more excitement Do you think there's uh more excitement if one gets the sense that the other if one gets the sense that the other if one gets the sense that the other person is um taking a bit of a risk in person is um taking a bit of a risk in person is um taking a bit of a risk in disclosing it? Not like I've been dying disclosing it? Not like I've been dying disclosing it? Not like I've been dying to tell somebody this and there's never to tell somebody this and there's never to tell somebody this and there's never been opportunity. Thanks for giving me been opportunity. Thanks for giving me been opportunity. Thanks for giving me the opportunity and the opportunity and the opportunity and >> you know I whatever. I always, you know, >> you know I whatever. I always, you know, >> you know I whatever. I always, you know, wanted to come back in my second life as wanted to come back in my second life as wanted to come back in my second life as a guppy or something. I I don't know. a guppy or something. I I don't know. a guppy or something. I I don't know. I'm picking a trivial example on purpose I'm picking a trivial example on purpose I'm picking a trivial example on purpose [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] cuz it's not true. Much better tropical cuz it's not true. Much better tropical cuz it's not true. Much better tropical fish. Big tropical fish enthusiast. much fish. Big tropical fish enthusiast. much fish. Big tropical fish enthusiast. much better freshwater discus. Much better better freshwater discus. Much better better freshwater discus. Much better fresh owned by me cuz it would be have a fresh owned by me cuz it would be have a fresh owned by me cuz it would be have a really good life. Um take really good really good life. Um take really good really good life. Um take really good care of my freshwater discus. But in all care of my freshwater discus. But in all care of my freshwater discus. But in all seriousness, does that mean that people seriousness, does that mean that people seriousness, does that mean that people are walking around harboring, especially are walking around harboring, especially are walking around harboring, especially single people are harboring single people are harboring single people are harboring parts of themselves that they're craving parts of themselves that they're craving parts of themselves that they're craving intimacy, you know, that that's of the intimacy, you know, that that's of the intimacy, you know, that that's of the exchange things that they've never told exchange things that they've never told exchange things that they've never told anyone that they wish they could tell anyone that they wish they could tell anyone that they wish they could tell someone, feel safe enough to tell them. someone, feel safe enough to tell them. someone, feel safe enough to tell them. Is that what you're talking about? you Is that what you're talking about? you Is that what you're talking about? you know, creating a real moment of intimacy know, creating a real moment of intimacy know, creating a real moment of intimacy early on. That's not physical intimacy. early on. That's not physical intimacy. early on. That's not physical intimacy. It's It's It's >> I don't even know if it's emotional >> I don't even know if it's emotional >> I don't even know if it's emotional intimacy. It's like it's like human intimacy. It's like it's like human intimacy. It's like it's like human connection, right? It's like I'm a connection, right? It's like I'm a connection, right? It's like I'm a person that's had particular experiences person that's had particular experiences person that's had particular experiences and you're a person that's that's had and you're a person that's that's had and you're a person that's that's had particular experiences and we have these particular experiences and we have these particular experiences and we have these like narratives and stories about like narratives and stories about like narratives and stories about ourselves. ourselves. ourselves. >> Again, the science historically has been >> Again, the science historically has been >> Again, the science historically has been so focused on traits and I get it. Like so focused on traits and I get it. Like so focused on traits and I get it. Like I and I understand the evolutionary I and I understand the evolutionary I and I understand the evolutionary focus on traits, but man, humans are focus on traits, but man, humans are focus on traits, but man, humans are stories, right? We're narratives and we stories, right? We're narratives and we stories, right? We're narratives and we want other people to be privy to that want other people to be privy to that want other people to be privy to that narrative and then maybe eventually be a narrative and then maybe eventually be a narrative and then maybe eventually be a part of it. So I think that that is part of it. So I think that that is part of it. So I think that that is often what can be very powerful. Now for often what can be very powerful. Now for often what can be very powerful. Now for people who are single and they like want people who are single and they like want people who are single and they like want to be in a relationship, I do think that to be in a relationship, I do think that to be in a relationship, I do think that it can be that sense that they're it can be that sense that they're it can be that sense that they're lacking. A lot of people are single and lacking. A lot of people are single and lacking. A lot of people are single and are very very happy with their single are very very happy with their single are very very happy with their single lives. And I also understand that a lot lives. And I also understand that a lot lives. And I also understand that a lot of people if they're single and they're of people if they're single and they're of people if they're single and they're dating. dating. dating. Look, there's a lot of reasons to be Look, there's a lot of reasons to be Look, there's a lot of reasons to be cautious. Forming a relationship is a cautious. Forming a relationship is a cautious. Forming a relationship is a low base rate event. It doesn't happen low base rate event. It doesn't happen low base rate event. It doesn't happen all that often. all that often. all that often. >> And it's time costly. It can be >> And it's time costly. It can be >> And it's time costly. It can be financially costly. It's energetically financially costly. It's energetically financially costly. It's energetically costly. Exactly. It's very costly. Exactly. It's very costly. Exactly. It's very energetically. energetically. energetically. >> Exactly. Like we don't go around forming >> Exactly. Like we don't go around forming >> Exactly. Like we don't go around forming relationships with everybody. But I I relationships with everybody. But I I relationships with everybody. But I I also happen to think that like once the also happen to think that like once the also happen to think that like once the ball gets rolling, the pull can be very ball gets rolling, the pull can be very ball gets rolling, the pull can be very strong. And part of that pull is this strong. And part of that pull is this strong. And part of that pull is this this desire to have somebody kind of see this desire to have somebody kind of see this desire to have somebody kind of see me, get me, understand me. I might be me, get me, understand me. I might be me, get me, understand me. I might be talking about securely attached people talking about securely attached people talking about securely attached people on average, right? There's always going on average, right? There's always going on average, right? There's always going to be that avoidance pull too, like to be that avoidance pull too, like to be that avoidance pull too, like people need to self-protect to some people need to self-protect to some people need to self-protect to some extent, but the sort of desire to open extent, but the sort of desire to open extent, but the sort of desire to open up and have somebody like really get up and have somebody like really get up and have somebody like really get you, it's it's so core to the you, it's it's so core to the you, it's it's so core to the relationship science worldview and and I relationship science worldview and and I relationship science worldview and and I think it says a lot about like who we think it says a lot about like who we think it says a lot about like who we are as a species and like how we form are as a species and like how we form are as a species and like how we form mating relationships. mating relationships. mating relationships. You've said in um so many words uh You've said in um so many words uh You've said in um so many words uh before uh that men and women essentially before uh that men and women essentially before uh that men and women essentially want the same things. want the same things. want the same things. >> Yeah. I think that's going to hit some >> Yeah. I think that's going to hit some >> Yeah. I think that's going to hit some people square in the face and they're people square in the face and they're people square in the face and they're going to say that is so not true. Men going to say that is so not true. Men going to say that is so not true. Men just want blank. Women just want blank. just want blank. Women just want blank. just want blank. Women just want blank. >> I I'm like on this campaign lately to >> I I'm like on this campaign lately to >> I I'm like on this campaign lately to try and defang try and defang try and defang >> the trolls. Yeah. >> the trolls. Yeah. >> the trolls. Yeah. >> That seem to have like it's like it we >> That seem to have like it's like it we >> That seem to have like it's like it we were in high school. Let's leave junior were in high school. Let's leave junior were in high school. Let's leave junior high school. Let's go to high school. high school. Let's go to high school. high school. Let's go to high school. And there were like a bunch of like And there were like a bunch of like And there were like a bunch of like really awful people. Let's evenly really awful people. Let's evenly really awful people. Let's evenly distribute it between the sexes. Let's distribute it between the sexes. Let's distribute it between the sexes. Let's just do that for fairness sake. Yeah. just do that for fairness sake. Yeah. just do that for fairness sake. Yeah. >> And they're like constantly pointing out >> And they're like constantly pointing out >> And they're like constantly pointing out how how how >> these people are always bad and >> these people are always bad and >> these people are always bad and extractive and these people are always, extractive and these people are always, extractive and these people are always, you know, uh, cold and avoidant and like you know, uh, cold and avoidant and like you know, uh, cold and avoidant and like and and if those narratives were just and and if those narratives were just and and if those narratives were just constantly like posted on the walls and constantly like posted on the walls and constantly like posted on the walls and like and talked about in the uh over like and talked about in the uh over like and talked about in the uh over lunch and whispered in the hallways, it lunch and whispered in the hallways, it lunch and whispered in the hallways, it would be very poisonous to the whole would be very poisonous to the whole would be very poisonous to the whole environment. And that's kind of what the environment. And that's kind of what the environment. And that's kind of what the internet is. and then the traditional internet is. and then the traditional internet is. and then the traditional news, but also some podcasts, not this news, but also some podcasts, not this news, but also some podcasts, not this podcast, but will kind of amplify these podcast, but will kind of amplify these podcast, but will kind of amplify these narratives because they feel juicy. They narratives because they feel juicy. They narratives because they feel juicy. They feel uh and they get clicks. feel uh and they get clicks. feel uh and they get clicks. >> And I think we all have an innate desire >> And I think we all have an innate desire >> And I think we all have an innate desire to avoid danger. So, we like know to avoid danger. So, we like know to avoid danger. So, we like know [clears throat] where where this stuff [clears throat] where where this stuff [clears throat] where where this stuff is. But when you step back, you go, is. But when you step back, you go, is. But when you step back, you go, right? Like most people are pretty right? Like most people are pretty right? Like most people are pretty well-meaning. Most people are looking well-meaning. Most people are looking well-meaning. Most people are looking for good partnership. Nobody's perfect, for good partnership. Nobody's perfect, for good partnership. Nobody's perfect, but uh where people make mistakes. Most but uh where people make mistakes. Most but uh where people make mistakes. Most people are like looking to at least people are like looking to at least people are like looking to at least modify their behavior over time. Like modify their behavior over time. Like modify their behavior over time. Like it's all reasonably benevolent, but then it's all reasonably benevolent, but then it's all reasonably benevolent, but then there are these like there are these like there are these like >> kind of nasty characters out there >> kind of nasty characters out there >> kind of nasty characters out there >> and we give them so much credit and we >> and we give them so much credit and we >> and we give them so much credit and we give them so much power give them so much power give them so much power >> and they just plain suck. >> and they just plain suck. >> and they just plain suck. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So >> So >> So >> men and women want the same things. >> men and women want the same things. >> men and women want the same things. Let's shut them up for a second and ask Let's shut them up for a second and ask Let's shut them up for a second and ask what the data say. This was one of the what the data say. This was one of the what the data say. This was one of the first things I studied when I started first things I studied when I started first things I studied when I started looking at attraction like almost 20 looking at attraction like almost 20 looking at attraction like almost 20 years ago now. And in part because I years ago now. And in part because I years ago now. And in part because I found the gender differences found the gender differences found the gender differences fascinating. It was very clear for fascinating. It was very clear for fascinating. It was very clear for decades and decades that if you ask men decades and decades that if you ask men decades and decades that if you ask men and women about the qualities they want and women about the qualities they want and women about the qualities they want in a partner that you'll see these in a partner that you'll see these in a partner that you'll see these differences show up pretty routinely and differences show up pretty routinely and differences show up pretty routinely and they are differences that then in the they are differences that then in the they are differences that then in the hands of nefarious characters online get hands of nefarious characters online get hands of nefarious characters online get spun out into exactly the narrative that spun out into exactly the narrative that spun out into exactly the narrative that you're describing. But the basic data on you're describing. But the basic data on you're describing. But the basic data on what men and women say they want, it's what men and women say they want, it's what men and women say they want, it's there. Men will say they care about there. Men will say they care about there. Men will say they care about attractiveness in a partner more than attractiveness in a partner more than attractiveness in a partner more than women. And women will say they care women. And women will say they care women. And women will say they care about earning potential in a partner about earning potential in a partner about earning potential in a partner more than men. Now, I'm phrasing that in more than men. Now, I'm phrasing that in more than men. Now, I'm phrasing that in a particular way. And I'm I'm saying a particular way. And I'm I'm saying a particular way. And I'm I'm saying what people say they want because I'm what people say they want because I'm what people say they want because I'm critiquing the experimental paradigms critiquing the experimental paradigms critiquing the experimental paradigms that were used. It usually had people that were used. It usually had people that were used. It usually had people rating a bunch of traits on scales. And rating a bunch of traits on scales. And rating a bunch of traits on scales. And as a psychologist, I have no problem as a psychologist, I have no problem as a psychologist, I have no problem with that. I'm very interested in with that. I'm very interested in with that. I'm very interested in people's subjective experiences and I people's subjective experiences and I people's subjective experiences and I use scales all the time. But we wondered use scales all the time. But we wondered use scales all the time. But we wondered that's different than or it might be that's different than or it might be that's different than or it might be different than what happens when you're different than what happens when you're different than what happens when you're meeting people face to face and you're meeting people face to face and you're meeting people face to face and you're reacting to a set of people who might be reacting to a set of people who might be reacting to a set of people who might be very attractive or of middling very attractive or of middling very attractive or of middling attractiveness or not very attractive at attractiveness or not very attractive at attractiveness or not very attractive at all. And that to me seems closer to all. And that to me seems closer to all. And that to me seems closer to capturing what people actually want. capturing what people actually want. capturing what people actually want. Like if you meet 10 women, how much does Like if you meet 10 women, how much does Like if you meet 10 women, how much does their attractiveness drive your desire their attractiveness drive your desire their attractiveness drive your desire to date them? How much does to date them? How much does to date them? How much does attractiveness affect whether you want a attractiveness affect whether you want a attractiveness affect whether you want a second date with them or not? So, we ran second date with them or not? So, we ran second date with them or not? So, we ran speed dating studies to try to capture speed dating studies to try to capture speed dating studies to try to capture exactly this phenomenon. I'll make it exactly this phenomenon. I'll make it exactly this phenomenon. I'll make it about earning prospects because it's about earning prospects because it's about earning prospects because it's really the same the same thing. So, we really the same the same thing. So, we really the same the same thing. So, we have these men and they go speed dating have these men and they go speed dating have these men and they go speed dating and some of these women are very and some of these women are very and some of these women are very ambitious. They're going to be lawyers ambitious. They're going to be lawyers ambitious. They're going to be lawyers and doctors. Others are a little bit and doctors. Others are a little bit and doctors. Others are a little bit less ambitious. And what you'd see is less ambitious. And what you'd see is less ambitious. And what you'd see is that the men tended to like the women a that the men tended to like the women a that the men tended to like the women a little bit more to the extent that they little bit more to the extent that they little bit more to the extent that they were ambitious. It wasn't a huge driver were ambitious. It wasn't a huge driver were ambitious. It wasn't a huge driver of their liking, but it was definitely of their liking, but it was definitely of their liking, but it was definitely there and it was definitely positive. there and it was definitely positive. there and it was definitely positive. But then when we flipped it and we But then when we flipped it and we But then when we flipped it and we looked at what the women were drawn to, looked at what the women were drawn to, looked at what the women were drawn to, not what they said, but what they were not what they said, but what they were not what they said, but what they were drawn to, they also tended to like the drawn to, they also tended to like the drawn to, they also tended to like the ambitious men a little bit. And the ambitious men a little bit. And the ambitious men a little bit. And the magnitude of that preference was magnitude of that preference was magnitude of that preference was identical. And it's been 20 years of identical. And it's been 20 years of identical. And it's been 20 years of this where we've looked at ongoing this where we've looked at ongoing this where we've looked at ongoing relationships. We've looked at um you relationships. We've looked at um you relationships. We've looked at um you know 40 something countries throughout know 40 something countries throughout know 40 something countries throughout the world. That narrative uh plays out the world. That narrative uh plays out the world. That narrative uh plays out every time. There's no gender every time. There's no gender every time. There's no gender differences in the extent to which these differences in the extent to which these differences in the extent to which these traits appeal to men and women when traits appeal to men and women when traits appeal to men and women when they're evaluating like real people they're evaluating like real people they're evaluating like real people they've actually met. Online is they've actually met. Online is they've actually met. Online is different. What people say they want is different. What people say they want is different. What people say they want is different. but real people that you've different. but real people that you've different. but real people that you've at least met face to face seems to at least met face to face seems to at least met face to face seems to dramatically reduce the power of the dramatically reduce the power of the dramatically reduce the power of the gender differences and the appeal of gender differences and the appeal of gender differences and the appeal of these traits. these traits. these traits. >> Fascinating and runs countercurrent to I >> Fascinating and runs countercurrent to I >> Fascinating and runs countercurrent to I think what many people including I have think what many people including I have think what many people including I have heard out there. heard out there. heard out there. >> Yeah. But but I think the like I think >> Yeah. But but I think the like I think >> Yeah. But but I think the like I think the key lesson here is like the key lesson here is like the key lesson here is like >> believe your subjective experience when >> believe your subjective experience when >> believe your subjective experience when you're interacting with somebody and you're interacting with somebody and you're interacting with somebody and you're getting to know them. And maybe you're getting to know them. And maybe you're getting to know them. And maybe that subjective experience is like, that subjective experience is like, that subjective experience is like, "She's hot, but I am not feeling this." "She's hot, but I am not feeling this." "She's hot, but I am not feeling this." And maybe that subjective experience is And maybe that subjective experience is And maybe that subjective experience is like, you know, I know that maybe to like, you know, I know that maybe to like, you know, I know that maybe to some people he looks like he doesn't some people he looks like he doesn't some people he looks like he doesn't have his life together, but I really see have his life together, but I really see have his life together, but I really see a spark there. a spark there. a spark there. If you trust that experience, I think If you trust that experience, I think If you trust that experience, I think that's likely to go better. that's likely to go better. that's likely to go better. And we don't have an experience to go on And we don't have an experience to go on And we don't have an experience to go on like that when it's online. When it's like that when it's online. When it's like that when it's online. When it's online, it's very easy to put people in online, it's very easy to put people in online, it's very easy to put people in boxes, put people in groups, and then boxes, put people in groups, and then boxes, put people in groups, and then make the groups fight each other. And I make the groups fight each other. And I make the groups fight each other. And I too am very distressed about all the too am very distressed about all the too am very distressed about all the heteropessimism. heteropessimism. heteropessimism. >> Yeah. Right. That's It's not my term, >> Yeah. Right. That's It's not my term, >> Yeah. Right. That's It's not my term, but it's one of my favorite terms. but it's one of my favorite terms. but it's one of my favorite terms. >> Do you know who coined it? >> Do you know who coined it? >> Do you know who coined it? >> I know the year is like 2019, but I >> I know the year is like 2019, but I >> I know the year is like 2019, but I forget the author. Yeah, look it up. forget the author. Yeah, look it up. forget the author. Yeah, look it up. >> Great term. Heteropet. Right. It's like >> Great term. Heteropet. Right. It's like >> Great term. Heteropet. Right. It's like men and women can't get along. How could men and women can't get along. How could men and women can't get along. How could they get along? They've got different they get along? They've got different they get along? They've got different interests and different priorities. interests and different priorities. interests and different priorities. Look, in the close relationships realm, Look, in the close relationships realm, Look, in the close relationships realm, it's not true. And that's the realm I it's not true. And that's the realm I it's not true. And that's the realm I know. Men and women, they want the same know. Men and women, they want the same know. Men and women, they want the same things out of their relationships. Yes, things out of their relationships. Yes, things out of their relationships. Yes, there are gender differences and like there are gender differences and like there are gender differences and like the thresholds for sex and especially the thresholds for sex and especially the thresholds for sex and especially early on that can be that can be really early on that can be that can be really early on that can be that can be really messy. Um, but overall I see a lot of messy. Um, but overall I see a lot of messy. Um, but overall I see a lot of similarity and a lot of potential for similarity and a lot of potential for similarity and a lot of potential for these the bonds that men and women form these the bonds that men and women form these the bonds that men and women form to do great things for people and women to do great things for people and women to do great things for people and women and women and men and men and any and women and men and men and any and women and men and men and any gendered combination that you want to gendered combination that you want to gendered combination that you want to come up with. Um, I think we're pair come up with. Um, I think we're pair come up with. Um, I think we're pair bonding creatures. We get a lot of joy bonding creatures. We get a lot of joy bonding creatures. We get a lot of joy and a lot of fulfillment out of that. and a lot of fulfillment out of that. and a lot of fulfillment out of that. And I want to see men and women find a And I want to see men and women find a And I want to see men and women find a way to make it work again. way to make it work again. way to make it work again. springboarding off of the heteropesses. springboarding off of the heteropesses. springboarding off of the heteropesses. Yeah. term, which is great because it Yeah. term, which is great because it Yeah. term, which is great because it encapsulates so much even though what it encapsulates so much even though what it encapsulates so much even though what it encapsulates is definitely not great. encapsulates is definitely not great. encapsulates is definitely not great. Yeah. The term I'm about to use is gonna Yeah. The term I'm about to use is gonna Yeah. The term I'm about to use is gonna sound um sound um sound um >> like it means something uh it doesn't. >> like it means something uh it doesn't. >> like it means something uh it doesn't. But is there any research on But is there any research on But is there any research on homopessimism, which is not the same as homopessimism, which is not the same as homopessimism, which is not the same as homophobia? Homopim meaning I'm not homophobia? Homopim meaning I'm not homophobia? Homopim meaning I'm not aware because I happen to be aware because I happen to be aware because I happen to be heterosexual, but I have homosexual heterosexual, but I have homosexual heterosexual, but I have homosexual friends, men and women. I'm not hearing friends, men and women. I'm not hearing friends, men and women. I'm not hearing them talk a lot about how dating culture them talk a lot about how dating culture them talk a lot about how dating culture is much worse is much worse is much worse >> now. >> now. >> now. >> I hear this too. >> I hear this too. >> I hear this too. >> But >> But >> But >> then again, uh sample size isn't that >> then again, uh sample size isn't that >> then again, uh sample size isn't that great here. great here. great here. >> So I don't know because a lot of the >> So I don't know because a lot of the >> So I don't know because a lot of the same things apply in terms of like apps. same things apply in terms of like apps. same things apply in terms of like apps. Uh sure cultures vary. Yeah. Uh sure cultures vary. Yeah. Uh sure cultures vary. Yeah. >> But there are some constants in this >> But there are some constants in this >> But there are some constants in this picture. Um so in any research yours or picture. Um so in any research yours or picture. Um so in any research yours or others research about um homosexual others research about um homosexual others research about um homosexual dating and couples is there pessimism dating and couples is there pessimism dating and couples is there pessimism guys saying well guys these days and guys saying well guys these days and guys saying well guys these days and women saying in uh yeah lesbian women women saying in uh yeah lesbian women women saying in uh yeah lesbian women let's just you know for lack of a better let's just you know for lack of a better let's just you know for lack of a better term um saying term um saying term um saying >> women these days >> women these days >> women these days >> I don't think that's out there nearly to >> I don't think that's out there nearly to >> I don't think that's out there nearly to the same extent. I think some of the the same extent. I think some of the the same extent. I think some of the like interesting components that you see like interesting components that you see like interesting components that you see out there is look the apps I think did out there is look the apps I think did out there is look the apps I think did they did a lot of good in the world for they did a lot of good in the world for they did a lot of good in the world for people who you know just felt like their people who you know just felt like their people who you know just felt like their social networks had no options in them social networks had no options in them social networks had no options in them but especially for people who might have but especially for people who might have but especially for people who might have been living in places that were been living in places that were been living in places that were genuinely unsafe for gays and lesbians genuinely unsafe for gays and lesbians genuinely unsafe for gays and lesbians and might have helped them to find and might have helped them to find and might have helped them to find romantic partners. So like um I always romantic partners. So like um I always romantic partners. So like um I always want to be the first one to give the want to be the first one to give the want to be the first one to give the apps credit for that for providing those apps credit for that for providing those apps credit for that for providing those kinds of opportunities. kinds of opportunities. kinds of opportunities. Classically speaking, what you tend to Classically speaking, what you tend to Classically speaking, what you tend to see is that, you know, I've talked a see is that, you know, I've talked a see is that, you know, I've talked a little bit about the the time frame as little bit about the the time frame as little bit about the the time frame as people form relationships in the first people form relationships in the first people form relationships in the first place. And that sometimes we get locked place. And that sometimes we get locked place. And that sometimes we get locked into this idea that it's like, oh, it's into this idea that it's like, oh, it's into this idea that it's like, oh, it's going to happen in an instant and and going to happen in an instant and and going to happen in an instant and and now you're together. But the reality is now you're together. But the reality is now you're together. But the reality is it's often an elongated process. That it's often an elongated process. That it's often an elongated process. That process has tended historically to be process has tended historically to be process has tended historically to be even longer for folks who are gays and even longer for folks who are gays and even longer for folks who are gays and lesbians forming same gender lesbians forming same gender lesbians forming same gender relationships. And I think part of that relationships. And I think part of that relationships. And I think part of that is something that you you might even is something that you you might even is something that you you might even call like a bigotry tax because if you call like a bigotry tax because if you call like a bigotry tax because if you lived in a place where it was like lived in a place where it was like lived in a place where it was like vaguely dangerous to admit your same-sex vaguely dangerous to admit your same-sex vaguely dangerous to admit your same-sex attractions, you got to be really attractions, you got to be really attractions, you got to be really careful before you start disclosing how careful before you start disclosing how careful before you start disclosing how you feel about somebody because you feel about somebody because you feel about somebody because rejection doesn't just mean rejection. rejection doesn't just mean rejection. rejection doesn't just mean rejection. Rejection is maybe actually carries Rejection is maybe actually carries Rejection is maybe actually carries other threats and stigma and all of other threats and stigma and all of other threats and stigma and all of these other things with it. these other things with it. these other things with it. >> Loss of jobs. Exactly. We've seen >> Loss of jobs. Exactly. We've seen >> Loss of jobs. Exactly. We've seen examples of that like it's sort of again examples of that like it's sort of again examples of that like it's sort of again it plays on stereotypes but um I'm I'm it plays on stereotypes but um I'm I'm it plays on stereotypes but um I'm I'm going to assume some of it is true. Uh going to assume some of it is true. Uh going to assume some of it is true. Uh like in in Mad Men, right? There's a like in in Mad Men, right? There's a like in in Mad Men, right? There's a disclosure and then it doesn't go well. disclosure and then it doesn't go well. disclosure and then it doesn't go well. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Yeah. It doesn't go well. >> Yeah. It doesn't go well. >> Yeah. It doesn't go well. >> I love the movie Call Me By Your Name. >> I love the movie Call Me By Your Name. >> I love the movie Call Me By Your Name. >> I don't think I've seen it. >> I don't think I've seen it. >> I don't think I've seen it. >> Yeah. It's it's it's about 10 years old. >> Yeah. It's it's it's about 10 years old. >> Yeah. It's it's it's about 10 years old. It's it's Luca Guadanino and and he's a It's it's Luca Guadanino and and he's a It's it's Luca Guadanino and and he's a fabulous director, but it's about two fabulous director, but it's about two fabulous director, but it's about two men who get together over the course of men who get together over the course of men who get together over the course of a summer. young men who find it's it's a summer. young men who find it's it's a summer. young men who find it's it's one of Timothy Shalamé's earlier movies one of Timothy Shalamé's earlier movies one of Timothy Shalamé's earlier movies >> and one of the things they come to >> and one of the things they come to >> and one of the things they come to regret is that like we didn't disclose regret is that like we didn't disclose regret is that like we didn't disclose our feelings sooner but it's it the our feelings sooner but it's it the our feelings sooner but it's it the movie was taking place in the 1980s so movie was taking place in the 1980s so movie was taking place in the 1980s so you had to be really careful with you had to be really careful with you had to be really careful with whether you were going to be upfront whether you were going to be upfront whether you were going to be upfront about how you were feeling about about how you were feeling about about how you were feeling about somebody. wasn't uh in a place where you somebody. wasn't uh in a place where you somebody. wasn't uh in a place where you can't be fully confident that you're can't be fully confident that you're can't be fully confident that you're have a sense of safety, it could be have a sense of safety, it could be have a sense of safety, it could be really dangerous. So that's an important really dangerous. So that's an important really dangerous. So that's an important difference that we see and I think the difference that we see and I think the difference that we see and I think the apps were really good at helping people apps were really good at helping people apps were really good at helping people to uh to come together in that sense. I to uh to come together in that sense. I to uh to come together in that sense. I have a question about um financial have a question about um financial have a question about um financial stability and level. stability and level. stability and level. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> you mentioned there aren't real big >> you mentioned there aren't real big >> you mentioned there aren't real big gender differences there. Earlier we gender differences there. Earlier we gender differences there. Earlier we were saying scientists are always uh were saying scientists are always uh were saying scientists are always uh doing the opposite of improv. Instead of doing the opposite of improv. Instead of doing the opposite of improv. Instead of yes and they always say yeah but you yes and they always say yeah but you yes and they always say yeah but you know what yeah but what about it's it's know what yeah but what about it's it's know what yeah but what about it's it's a it's in our training a it's in our training a it's in our training >> income level on its own or amount of >> income level on its own or amount of >> income level on its own or amount of money that somebody has in my mind is money that somebody has in my mind is money that somebody has in my mind is somewhat informative. somewhat informative. somewhat informative. >> What's more informative is having the >> What's more informative is having the >> What's more informative is having the additional data point of where they additional data point of where they additional data point of where they started out. Oh, interesting. started out. Oh, interesting. started out. Oh, interesting. >> Because people with money who um didn't >> Because people with money who um didn't >> Because people with money who um didn't have to work very hard to get it, have to work very hard to get it, have to work very hard to get it, >> it's a different picture. Now, some >> it's a different picture. Now, some >> it's a different picture. Now, some people might say like, "Who cares?" And people might say like, "Who cares?" And people might say like, "Who cares?" And I will make the argument that some I will make the argument that some I will make the argument that some people some people who had to make a people some people who had to make a people some people who had to make a work very hard to make their money work very hard to make their money work very hard to make their money >> often times are still in the working >> often times are still in the working >> often times are still in the working hard mode. The the the the twist in the hard mode. The the the the twist in the hard mode. The the the the twist in the in the high level of income thing like in the high level of income thing like in the high level of income thing like that. The additional question that's that. The additional question that's that. The additional question that's useful is how much free time do you useful is how much free time do you useful is how much free time do you have? have? have? >> Yeah. A lot of the people I know who >> Yeah. A lot of the people I know who >> Yeah. A lot of the people I know who have a lot of money, they don't have a have a lot of money, they don't have a have a lot of money, they don't have a lot of free time. So, if people pair up lot of free time. So, if people pair up lot of free time. So, if people pair up with them thinking that they're going to with them thinking that they're going to with them thinking that they're going to feel very financially secure and have a feel very financially secure and have a feel very financially secure and have a lot of stuff, that might be true. lot of stuff, that might be true. lot of stuff, that might be true. >> But, um, how often they're going to see >> But, um, how often they're going to see >> But, um, how often they're going to see their partner or the the co-parent of their partner or the the co-parent of their partner or the the co-parent of their kids is an important question. And their kids is an important question. And their kids is an important question. And this extends both ways. like so many of this extends both ways. like so many of this extends both ways. like so many of these attributes that in the abstract these attributes that in the abstract these attributes that in the abstract sound really good to us, but then when sound really good to us, but then when sound really good to us, but then when you actually put it in a person that you actually put it in a person that you actually put it in a person that also has all these other attributes and also has all these other attributes and also has all these other attributes and things going on, you realize like, wait things going on, you realize like, wait things going on, you realize like, wait a minute, their cutthroat ambition a minute, their cutthroat ambition a minute, their cutthroat ambition actually wasn't that great, right? actually wasn't that great, right? actually wasn't that great, right? Because it means that they're never Because it means that they're never Because it means that they're never around. I think for this reason around. I think for this reason around. I think for this reason it can be very challenging especially if it can be very challenging especially if it can be very challenging especially if you're looking at long-term you're looking at long-term you're looking at long-term relationships to take things like like a relationships to take things like like a relationships to take things like like a person's um income level and use that to person's um income level and use that to person's um income level and use that to forecast like for example how their forecast like for example how their forecast like for example how their partner is going to feel about them. I partner is going to feel about them. I partner is going to feel about them. I mean, we've done some of this work, mean, we've done some of this work, mean, we've done some of this work, indeed some of the work looking at indeed some of the work looking at indeed some of the work looking at gender differences and like the reality gender differences and like the reality gender differences and like the reality is like a person's objective income, it is like a person's objective income, it is like a person's objective income, it has very very small effects on how their has very very small effects on how their has very very small effects on how their partners feel about them. The bigger partners feel about them. The bigger partners feel about them. The bigger effects are things like, you know, if effects are things like, you know, if effects are things like, you know, if now we scaffold up and look at like now we scaffold up and look at like now we scaffold up and look at like socioeconomic status. So, do you have socioeconomic status. So, do you have socioeconomic status. So, do you have the resources to get by as a couple? the resources to get by as a couple? the resources to get by as a couple? That can be very challenging for people. That can be very challenging for people. That can be very challenging for people. I've seen numerous examples of uh I've seen numerous examples of uh I've seen numerous examples of uh couples where the man loses his work couples where the man loses his work couples where the man loses his work >> and if he's not able to get stable work >> and if he's not able to get stable work >> and if he's not able to get stable work again reasonably soon. again reasonably soon. again reasonably soon. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> In most of the >> In most of the >> In most of the >> this isn't a peer-reviewed study. Most >> this isn't a peer-reviewed study. Most >> this isn't a peer-reviewed study. Most of the examples I can think of um the of the examples I can think of um the of the examples I can think of um the couple eventually dissolved couple eventually dissolved couple eventually dissolved >> and it wasn't necessarily for a lack of >> and it wasn't necessarily for a lack of >> and it wasn't necessarily for a lack of enough resources. Families were able to enough resources. Families were able to enough resources. Families were able to help etc. Um and of course we could talk help etc. Um and of course we could talk help etc. Um and of course we could talk about depression. We [clears throat] about depression. We [clears throat] about depression. We [clears throat] could talk about some other thing that could talk about some other thing that could talk about some other thing that might have happened or many things that might have happened or many things that might have happened or many things that happened, but is there a sex difference happened, but is there a sex difference happened, but is there a sex difference there? The part that I find the most there? The part that I find the most there? The part that I find the most intuitive about these examples is that intuitive about these examples is that intuitive about these examples is that when a man loses his job like that, and when a man loses his job like that, and when a man loses his job like that, and I love that there are other resources I love that there are other resources I love that there are other resources around, so we know that that's not the around, so we know that that's not the around, so we know that that's not the exact problem. My guess is that the exact problem. My guess is that the exact problem. My guess is that the challenges are coming more from his like challenges are coming more from his like challenges are coming more from his like genuine troubling like loss of identity, genuine troubling like loss of identity, genuine troubling like loss of identity, loss of self. what am I going to do with loss of self. what am I going to do with loss of self. what am I going to do with myself? And less maybe not zero, but myself? And less maybe not zero, but myself? And less maybe not zero, but less about his uh partner thinking, oh, less about his uh partner thinking, oh, less about his uh partner thinking, oh, now he's no longer a provider. And now he's no longer a provider. And now he's no longer a provider. And that's just generally my bias from what that's just generally my bias from what that's just generally my bias from what I see in the science, which is when I see in the science, which is when I see in the science, which is when tragedies befall us, they affect our tragedies befall us, they affect our tragedies befall us, they affect our perceptions especially strongly. So this perceptions especially strongly. So this perceptions especially strongly. So this guy is going to feel this pretty hard guy is going to feel this pretty hard guy is going to feel this pretty hard that he's lost his job. that he's lost his job. that he's lost his job. Stepping back and looking at the broader Stepping back and looking at the broader Stepping back and looking at the broader picture of the data, it used to be true picture of the data, it used to be true picture of the data, it used to be true that marriages were more fragile when that marriages were more fragile when that marriages were more fragile when the woman earned more than the man in the woman earned more than the man in the woman earned more than the man in the marriage. But this stopped being the marriage. But this stopped being the marriage. But this stopped being true in the '9s. So that gender true in the '9s. So that gender true in the '9s. So that gender difference doesn't exist anymore. And I difference doesn't exist anymore. And I difference doesn't exist anymore. And I think it's it's easy to surmise. I don't think it's it's easy to surmise. I don't think it's it's easy to surmise. I don't know if the sociologists who studied know if the sociologists who studied know if the sociologists who studied this have drawn exactly this conclusion, this have drawn exactly this conclusion, this have drawn exactly this conclusion, but it's easy to posit that what's but it's easy to posit that what's but it's easy to posit that what's happening there is that people in happening there is that people in happening there is that people in general have gotten more comfortable general have gotten more comfortable general have gotten more comfortable with the gender imbalanced with the gender imbalanced with the gender imbalanced relationships. And in the '9s, we were relationships. And in the '9s, we were relationships. And in the '9s, we were still getting used to this idea. still getting used to this idea. still getting used to this idea. Um, today, Um, today, Um, today, even if the average couple, the man even if the average couple, the man even if the average couple, the man earns more than the woman, you do see earns more than the woman, you do see earns more than the woman, you do see that because there is a gender that because there is a gender that because there is a gender difference in the in income levels on difference in the in income levels on difference in the in income levels on average. But in education, it's flipped average. But in education, it's flipped average. But in education, it's flipped now, right? women, at least in younger now, right? women, at least in younger now, right? women, at least in younger couples, the woman is more likely to be couples, the woman is more likely to be couples, the woman is more likely to be educated than the man. educated than the man. educated than the man. >> More educated or or educated period. >> More educated or or educated period. >> More educated or or educated period. >> More educated than the man in the >> More educated than the man in the >> More educated than the man in the relationship, right? So, so women are relationship, right? So, so women are relationship, right? So, so women are earning more of the, you know, uh, earning more of the, you know, uh, earning more of the, you know, uh, higher degrees. So, if there's a higher degrees. So, if there's a higher degrees. So, if there's a mismatch, probably the woman has more mismatch, probably the woman has more mismatch, probably the woman has more education than the guy. education than the guy. education than the guy. That's not a risk factor That's not a risk factor That's not a risk factor relative to if they were the same level, relative to if they were the same level, relative to if they were the same level, relative to if, you know, he were relative to if, you know, he were relative to if, you know, he were higher. It just doesn't really seem to higher. It just doesn't really seem to higher. It just doesn't really seem to be doing anything. I know we can like be doing anything. I know we can like be doing anything. I know we can like get really nervous about like what does get really nervous about like what does get really nervous about like what does it mean for men's desiraability if it mean for men's desiraability if it mean for men's desiraability if they're not ambitious. Like I get that they're not ambitious. Like I get that they're not ambitious. Like I get that if men are not out there like making if men are not out there like making if men are not out there like making things of themselves, I'm not worried things of themselves, I'm not worried things of themselves, I'm not worried about the women getting a better about the women getting a better about the women getting a better education than them. I think it's education than them. I think it's education than them. I think it's important for men to have a sense of important for men to have a sense of important for men to have a sense of purpose. I think trade schools can be purpose. I think trade schools can be purpose. I think trade schools can be awesome, but the mismatches in the level awesome, but the mismatches in the level awesome, but the mismatches in the level of education and in the level of income, of education and in the level of income, of education and in the level of income, those don't spell a problem. We just got those don't spell a problem. We just got those don't spell a problem. We just got to get like men feeling good about to get like men feeling good about to get like men feeling good about themselves again. themselves again. themselves again. >> And the data say they're not. >> And the data say they're not. >> And the data say they're not. >> Yeah. I mean, I think that's what you >> Yeah. I mean, I think that's what you >> Yeah. I mean, I think that's what you see. I mean, the data that concern me see. I mean, the data that concern me see. I mean, the data that concern me the most are that men and I think the most are that men and I think the most are that men and I think especially low SCEs men, they're the especially low SCEs men, they're the especially low SCEs men, they're the ones that feel like their social ones that feel like their social ones that feel like their social networks are gone. They don't know where networks are gone. They don't know where networks are gone. They don't know where to go to get any kind of companionship. to go to get any kind of companionship. to go to get any kind of companionship. So, if they're really feeling that acute So, if they're really feeling that acute So, if they're really feeling that acute sense of loneliness, of lack of sense of loneliness, of lack of sense of loneliness, of lack of belonging, you know, among like real belonging, you know, among like real belonging, you know, among like real people in their lives, um that's the people in their lives, um that's the people in their lives, um that's the thing I worry about because then that's thing I worry about because then that's thing I worry about because then that's going to affect your sense of self. going to affect your sense of self. going to affect your sense of self. that's going to affect, you know, all of that's going to affect, you know, all of that's going to affect, you know, all of your ambitions and in really bad cases your ambitions and in really bad cases your ambitions and in really bad cases might, you know, push people to some of might, you know, push people to some of might, you know, push people to some of those nastier corners of the internet. those nastier corners of the internet. those nastier corners of the internet. 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Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman. in the kind of classic pure in the kind of classic pure stereotypical narrative, you know, men stereotypical narrative, you know, men stereotypical narrative, you know, men who were slightly older who were slightly older who were slightly older had more resources. had more resources. had more resources. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> This isn't always true. >> This isn't always true. >> This isn't always true. >> But there's this what apparently based >> But there's this what apparently based >> But there's this what apparently based on your work is a uh myth that women on your work is a uh myth that women on your work is a uh myth that women desire older men. Uh men desire younger desire older men. Uh men desire younger desire older men. Uh men desire younger women. women. women. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Your work points to the possibility that >> Your work points to the possibility that >> Your work points to the possibility that there is no gender differences in there is no gender differences in there is no gender differences in attraction to younger partners. attraction to younger partners. attraction to younger partners. >> Yeah. And look, let me say that this is >> Yeah. And look, let me say that this is >> Yeah. And look, let me say that this is I think one of the more tenant I think one of the more tenant I think one of the more tenant >> and it's a big and it's a big sample >> and it's a big and it's a big sample >> and it's a big and it's a big sample size 4000. size 4000. size 4000. >> I'm like so and uh I'll weave a quick >> I'm like so and uh I'll weave a quick >> I'm like so and uh I'll weave a quick anecdote. There's this guy at the gym anecdote. There's this guy at the gym anecdote. There's this guy at the gym that I sometimes go to. that I sometimes go to. that I sometimes go to. >> He's probably in his like 70s or >> He's probably in his like 70s or >> He's probably in his like 70s or something and he's in something and he's in something and he's in >> what great shape. He's retired. He made >> what great shape. He's retired. He made >> what great shape. He's retired. He made money. He's enjoying life. He's got money. He's enjoying life. He's got money. He's enjoying life. He's got grandkids. He's like he just seems like grandkids. He's like he just seems like grandkids. He's like he just seems like I don't know him that well, but it seems I don't know him that well, but it seems I don't know him that well, but it seems like he's really got it together and like he's really got it together and like he's really got it together and he's really loving life. And I always he's really loving life. And I always he's really loving life. And I always say, uh, what brings you here every day? say, uh, what brings you here every day? say, uh, what brings you here every day? You know, I figured it would be like, You know, I figured it would be like, You know, I figured it would be like, why it just feels so good. And he just why it just feels so good. And he just why it just feels so good. And he just always says the same thing. He always always says the same thing. He always always says the same thing. He always just says, I don't want to lose my wife just says, I don't want to lose my wife just says, I don't want to lose my wife to a younger guy. And I always laugh and to a younger guy. And I always laugh and to a younger guy. And I always laugh and I go, I go, I go, >> then like I know a lot about the contour >> then like I know a lot about the contour >> then like I know a lot about the contour of his life. And maybe there's something of his life. And maybe there's something of his life. And maybe there's something he's not disclosing, but you know, he's not disclosing, but you know, he's not disclosing, but you know, anyone would say like this guy's just anyone would say like this guy's just anyone would say like this guy's just totally got it made. He's in and he's, totally got it made. He's in and he's, totally got it made. He's in and he's, you know, I again I don't know the you know, I again I don't know the you know, I again I don't know the details of his life and I shouldn't, but details of his life and I shouldn't, but details of his life and I shouldn't, but I know enough about it that, you know, I know enough about it that, you know, I know enough about it that, you know, he's checked off all the boxes three or he's checked off all the boxes three or he's checked off all the boxes three or four times and then had the wisdom in my four times and then had the wisdom in my four times and then had the wisdom in my opinion to not just keep working like a opinion to not just keep working like a opinion to not just keep working like a maniac and just spend time with his kids maniac and just spend time with his kids maniac and just spend time with his kids and grandkids and his wife. But he and grandkids and his wife. But he and grandkids and his wife. But he always answers the exact same way. How's always answers the exact same way. How's always answers the exact same way. How's it going? He goes, "Pretty good. Just it going? He goes, "Pretty good. Just it going? He goes, "Pretty good. Just don't want to lose my wife to younger don't want to lose my wife to younger don't want to lose my wife to younger guys. So, I'm here again today." guys. So, I'm here again today." guys. So, I'm here again today." >> Let me tell you about this study. And >> Let me tell you about this study. And >> Let me tell you about this study. And look, again, I'm a scientist and look, again, I'm a scientist and look, again, I'm a scientist and sometimes the data I'm like, "Huh? You sometimes the data I'm like, "Huh? You sometimes the data I'm like, "Huh? You don't say. I didn't see this one coming. don't say. I didn't see this one coming. don't say. I didn't see this one coming. I mentioned this earlier. So, we I mentioned this earlier. So, we I mentioned this earlier. So, we partnered up with folks who do partnered up with folks who do partnered up with folks who do matchmaking. So, these are people who matchmaking. So, these are people who matchmaking. So, these are people who are paying for a service are paying for a service are paying for a service because they want to be in a long-term because they want to be in a long-term because they want to be in a long-term relationship. relationship. relationship. And so, they will set people on dates And so, they will set people on dates And so, they will set people on dates and they've got a whole pool that and they've got a whole pool that and they've got a whole pool that they're working with. And within that they're working with. And within that they're working with. And within that pool, the men who are searching for pool, the men who are searching for pool, the men who are searching for dates are older than the women by about dates are older than the women by about dates are older than the women by about four years on average. Okay? So that's four years on average. Okay? So that's four years on average. Okay? So that's that's what they've got to work with. that's what they've got to work with. that's what they've got to work with. And they set people up on these dates. And they set people up on these dates. And they set people up on these dates. And so most of the time the woman is And so most of the time the woman is And so most of the time the woman is going to be younger than the man, but going to be younger than the man, but going to be younger than the man, but there's a range. Sometimes the woman is there's a range. Sometimes the woman is there's a range. Sometimes the woman is much younger than the guy. And sometimes much younger than the guy. And sometimes much younger than the guy. And sometimes the woman is the same age as the guy. the woman is the same age as the guy. the woman is the same age as the guy. And sometimes the woman's even a little And sometimes the woman's even a little And sometimes the woman's even a little older than the guy. All right? So what older than the guy. All right? So what older than the guy. All right? So what you'd expect to see is that if men are you'd expect to see is that if men are you'd expect to see is that if men are looking for younger women and women are looking for younger women and women are looking for younger women and women are looking for older men, then when we look looking for older men, then when we look looking for older men, then when we look at how the age of the partner affects at how the age of the partner affects at how the age of the partner affects whether you want to go on a second date whether you want to go on a second date whether you want to go on a second date with this person, with this person, with this person, it should be the younger folks appeal to it should be the younger folks appeal to it should be the younger folks appeal to the men more and the older folks appeal the men more and the older folks appeal the men more and the older folks appeal to the women more. But that wasn't what to the women more. But that wasn't what to the women more. But that wasn't what we saw. We saw that the younger folks we saw. We saw that the younger folks we saw. We saw that the younger folks appeal to the men more. And by the way, appeal to the men more. And by the way, appeal to the men more. And by the way, it's not a huge effect. It's not like it's not a huge effect. It's not like it's not a huge effect. It's not like the gross stereotype that's out there. the gross stereotype that's out there. the gross stereotype that's out there. Men are a little bit more interested in Men are a little bit more interested in Men are a little bit more interested in the women to the extent that they're the women to the extent that they're the women to the extent that they're younger, but it's not gigantic. Women younger, but it's not gigantic. Women younger, but it's not gigantic. Women are doing the same thing. They're a are doing the same thing. They're a are doing the same thing. They're a little bit more interested in the little bit more interested in the little bit more interested in the younger guys. They don't say that on younger guys. They don't say that on younger guys. They don't say that on paper. In fact, sometimes they're like, paper. In fact, sometimes they're like, paper. In fact, sometimes they're like, "Don't set me up with the younger guys." "Don't set me up with the younger guys." "Don't set me up with the younger guys." And then they do and they say, "Huh, And then they do and they say, "Huh, And then they do and they say, "Huh, that was interesting. I enjoyed that. I that was interesting. I enjoyed that. I that was interesting. I enjoyed that. I enjoyed that date. I would like to see enjoyed that date. I would like to see enjoyed that date. I would like to see him again." him again." him again." >> Are the stated reasons um similar in any >> Are the stated reasons um similar in any >> Are the stated reasons um similar in any way? For instance, are both groups way? For instance, are both groups way? For instance, are both groups saying less less baggage? That would be saying less less baggage? That would be saying less less baggage? That would be kind of a cliche answer, but we could kind of a cliche answer, but we could kind of a cliche answer, but we could place that on either side. place that on either side. place that on either side. >> I don't know. And I would love to know. >> I don't know. And I would love to know. >> I don't know. And I would love to know. I think sometimes when women are when I think sometimes when women are when I think sometimes when women are when they downrate like whether they care they downrate like whether they care they downrate like whether they care about attractiveness or something. I I about attractiveness or something. I I about attractiveness or something. I I think sometimes they are like kidding think sometimes they are like kidding think sometimes they are like kidding themselves a little bit that they themselves a little bit that they themselves a little bit that they actually do appreciate a younger guy actually do appreciate a younger guy actually do appreciate a younger guy who's maybe is fit and in shape or they who's maybe is fit and in shape or they who's maybe is fit and in shape or they don't fully appreciate how exciting it don't fully appreciate how exciting it don't fully appreciate how exciting it would feel to be sitting across the would feel to be sitting across the would feel to be sitting across the table from a guy like that. I mean, this table from a guy like that. I mean, this table from a guy like that. I mean, this is my best uh my best guess. And what's is my best uh my best guess. And what's is my best uh my best guess. And what's so fascinating about this data set is so fascinating about this data set is so fascinating about this data set is that look, they're trying to create that look, they're trying to create that look, they're trying to create these couples, but you know, you only these couples, but you know, you only these couples, but you know, you only create a couple a fraction of the time. create a couple a fraction of the time. create a couple a fraction of the time. Much of the time the people don't really Much of the time the people don't really Much of the time the people don't really hit it off, but in the couples that get hit it off, but in the couples that get hit it off, but in the couples that get created, the guy was four years older created, the guy was four years older created, the guy was four years older than the woman. And in the couples that than the woman. And in the couples that than the woman. And in the couples that don't get created, the guy is four years don't get created, the guy is four years don't get created, the guy is four years older than the woman cuz that was what older than the woman cuz that was what older than the woman cuz that was what they had in the sample to begin with. So they had in the sample to begin with. So they had in the sample to begin with. So we look around and you see that age we look around and you see that age we look around and you see that age difference. That age difference is real. difference. That age difference is real. difference. That age difference is real. And I'm sure it means something And I'm sure it means something And I'm sure it means something important. And data like this just make important. And data like this just make important. And data like this just make me think something else is going on me think something else is going on me think something else is going on here. Whatever is creating this age here. Whatever is creating this age here. Whatever is creating this age difference, it's at least it's not, you difference, it's at least it's not, you difference, it's at least it's not, you know, a age difference in in how people know, a age difference in in how people know, a age difference in in how people sort, it's not happening on date one. sort, it's not happening on date one. sort, it's not happening on date one. It's not happening at the initial It's not happening at the initial It's not happening at the initial attraction phase. Maybe it's happening attraction phase. Maybe it's happening attraction phase. Maybe it's happening earlier who puts themselves in the pool. earlier who puts themselves in the pool. earlier who puts themselves in the pool. Maybe it's happening later. I don't Maybe it's happening later. I don't Maybe it's happening later. I don't know. She's going to date this younger know. She's going to date this younger know. She's going to date this younger guy like once or twice, but then she's guy like once or twice, but then she's guy like once or twice, but then she's going to be done with him and she'll, going to be done with him and she'll, going to be done with him and she'll, you know, settle down with somebody you know, settle down with somebody you know, settle down with somebody who's a little older. who's a little older. who's a little older. >> She said she's done with him. >> She said she's done with him. >> She said she's done with him. >> Yeah. Right. Exactly. Right. But Right. >> Yeah. Right. Exactly. Right. But Right. >> Yeah. Right. Exactly. Right. But Right. But it could go the other way, too. But it could go the other way, too. But it could go the other way, too. >> Well, what I've heard before, uh, cuz >> Well, what I've heard before, uh, cuz >> Well, what I've heard before, uh, cuz I'm 50, I have some, uh, female friends I'm 50, I have some, uh, female friends I'm 50, I have some, uh, female friends who are dating, and they'll say that who are dating, and they'll say that who are dating, and they'll say that they do date younger guys, but then the they do date younger guys, but then the they do date younger guys, but then the deal breaker is if the guy says he wants deal breaker is if the guy says he wants deal breaker is if the guy says he wants >> kids. Kids, that's tough. >> kids. Kids, that's tough. >> kids. Kids, that's tough. >> And then >> And then >> And then >> the So the agreement is to move on based >> the So the agreement is to move on based >> the So the agreement is to move on based on that. Often this is a common on that. Often this is a common on that. Often this is a common reasonably common thing. Yeah. Actually reasonably common thing. Yeah. Actually reasonably common thing. Yeah. Actually hear about this more and more these hear about this more and more these hear about this more and more these days. days. days. >> Yeah. And I think um one thing that that >> Yeah. And I think um one thing that that >> Yeah. And I think um one thing that that online dating affords is if you've got online dating affords is if you've got online dating affords is if you've got something like that that's exceptionally something like that that's exceptionally something like that that's exceptionally important to you, there are important to you, there are important to you, there are opportunities to filter on it. Um we opportunities to filter on it. Um we opportunities to filter on it. Um we haven't talked about this too much yet, haven't talked about this too much yet, haven't talked about this too much yet, but but you can get into a whole line of but but you can get into a whole line of but but you can get into a whole line of research and studies on, you know, oh, research and studies on, you know, oh, research and studies on, you know, oh, if people are filtering for things in if people are filtering for things in if people are filtering for things in the abstract, does that match what's the abstract, does that match what's the abstract, does that match what's ultimately going to appeal to them when ultimately going to appeal to them when ultimately going to appeal to them when they meet face to face? We find that they meet face to face? We find that they meet face to face? We find that generally speaking, these things tend to generally speaking, these things tend to generally speaking, these things tend to be pretty uncorrelated. So what people be pretty uncorrelated. So what people be pretty uncorrelated. So what people think they want doesn't match up with think they want doesn't match up with think they want doesn't match up with what they actually end up liking once what they actually end up liking once what they actually end up liking once they meet somebody face to face. But you they meet somebody face to face. But you they meet somebody face to face. But you can argue that sometimes that's not a can argue that sometimes that's not a can argue that sometimes that's not a good thing. If somebody really wants good thing. If somebody really wants good thing. If somebody really wants kids, shouldn't it be within their power kids, shouldn't it be within their power kids, shouldn't it be within their power to craft a pool of partners who also to craft a pool of partners who also to craft a pool of partners who also want kids to give them that opportunity? want kids to give them that opportunity? want kids to give them that opportunity? Like that seems like a reasonable Like that seems like a reasonable Like that seems like a reasonable humanistic thing to do. And so to the humanistic thing to do. And so to the humanistic thing to do. And so to the extent that the apps are able to do that extent that the apps are able to do that extent that the apps are able to do that or these services are able to do that, I or these services are able to do that, I or these services are able to do that, I think that's uh that's ultimately a good think that's uh that's ultimately a good think that's uh that's ultimately a good thing. I think thing. I think thing. I think >> click like want kids or not. >> click like want kids or not. >> click like want kids or not. >> Yeah, I think I think often I think I I >> Yeah, I think I think often I think I I >> Yeah, I think I think often I think I I think you can I in in some apps that think you can I in in some apps that think you can I in in some apps that might be like a special feature you have might be like a special feature you have might be like a special feature you have to pay for things. These things get to pay for things. These things get to pay for things. These things get complicated. complicated. complicated. >> Who knows if the news is accurate uh >> Who knows if the news is accurate uh >> Who knows if the news is accurate uh because it's not real data. It's sort of because it's not real data. It's sort of because it's not real data. It's sort of whatever the news decides to shine a whatever the news decides to shine a whatever the news decides to shine a light on. this idea that um more young light on. this idea that um more young light on. this idea that um more young people are going to church with which is people are going to church with which is people are going to church with which is a values plural uh indicator like a values plural uh indicator like a values plural uh indicator like >> you know people can most churches are >> you know people can most churches are >> you know people can most churches are open to whoever shows up but the open to whoever shows up but the open to whoever shows up but the assumption is that people are there uh assumption is that people are there uh assumption is that people are there uh for certain reasons that they're either for certain reasons that they're either for certain reasons that they're either trying to build on or or have certain trying to build on or or have certain trying to build on or or have certain values values values >> that are sort of family children uh >> that are sort of family children uh >> that are sort of family children uh >> values morals adjacent if not central >> values morals adjacent if not central >> values morals adjacent if not central right I think people know what I'm right I think people know what I'm right I think people know what I'm saying I mean sure bad people can show saying I mean sure bad people can show saying I mean sure bad people can show up at church, but but the idea is that up at church, but but the idea is that up at church, but but the idea is that somebody's taking the time uh to get somebody's taking the time uh to get somebody's taking the time uh to get dressed up on a Sunday morning and go dressed up on a Sunday morning and go dressed up on a Sunday morning and go and listen to someone else speak and a and listen to someone else speak and a and listen to someone else speak and a lot of people are meeting that way now. lot of people are meeting that way now. lot of people are meeting that way now. Are there any data that that's a Are there any data that that's a Are there any data that that's a response to the kind of like wild west response to the kind of like wild west response to the kind of like wild west of of of >> um of online dating and you know social >> um of online dating and you know social >> um of online dating and you know social media and and just the general culture media and and just the general culture media and and just the general culture of like everybody it's kind of the the of like everybody it's kind of the the of like everybody it's kind of the the culture of everybody. I mean even in culture of everybody. I mean even in culture of everybody. I mean even in high school there were subgroups. Some high school there were subgroups. Some high school there were subgroups. Some people moved between subgroups, but people moved between subgroups, but people moved between subgroups, but it's, you know, it the the vastness of it's, you know, it the the vastness of it's, you know, it the the vastness of the internet and social media, the internet and social media, the internet and social media, >> even if you state your preferences about >> even if you state your preferences about >> even if you state your preferences about what you do and don't want to see on what you do and don't want to see on what you do and don't want to see on social media is like it's a flood. I social media is like it's a flood. I social media is like it's a flood. I mean, I see people and things on there mean, I see people and things on there mean, I see people and things on there from way back when that like they're not from way back when that like they're not from way back when that like they're not bad people. I have no interest in what bad people. I have no interest in what bad people. I have no interest in what they're doing now. And then occasionally they're doing now. And then occasionally they're doing now. And then occasionally I see people I'm like, "Oh, no way." And I see people I'm like, "Oh, no way." And I see people I'm like, "Oh, no way." And reconnect. So, but it's a it's a fire reconnect. So, but it's a it's a fire reconnect. So, but it's a it's a fire hose. hose. hose. >> Yeah. And you need some way to reduce it >> Yeah. And you need some way to reduce it >> Yeah. And you need some way to reduce it to something manageable. I mean, again, to something manageable. I mean, again, to something manageable. I mean, again, we we evolved in an environment where we we we evolved in an environment where we we we evolved in an environment where we knew like 50 other people, you know, knew like 50 other people, you know, knew like 50 other people, you know, that's like your group. You you probably that's like your group. You you probably that's like your group. You you probably knew more than that. Maybe you know, knew more than that. Maybe you know, knew more than that. Maybe you know, like 150, some nearby groups, but that's like 150, some nearby groups, but that's like 150, some nearby groups, but that's all ages and all genders and everything all ages and all genders and everything all ages and all genders and everything else. It's a small number of potential else. It's a small number of potential else. It's a small number of potential partners for you, but you had reasons to partners for you, but you had reasons to partners for you, but you had reasons to interact, structures that were going to interact, structures that were going to interact, structures that were going to put you in contact with each other. And put you in contact with each other. And put you in contact with each other. And to the extent that church is fulfilling to the extent that church is fulfilling to the extent that church is fulfilling a function like that, I think that's a function like that, I think that's a function like that, I think that's great. And in fact, I think that's great. And in fact, I think that's great. And in fact, I think that's exactly what's missing. And if church exactly what's missing. And if church exactly what's missing. And if church isn't your thing, there's like a million isn't your thing, there's like a million isn't your thing, there's like a million other things that people can do in any other things that people can do in any other things that people can do in any kind of modern urban context that are kind of modern urban context that are kind of modern urban context that are going to be helpful along those lines. I going to be helpful along those lines. I going to be helpful along those lines. I mean, you can join any kind of inter mean, you can join any kind of inter mean, you can join any kind of inter mural sports team. I mean, mural sports team. I mean, mural sports team. I mean, >> improv class. >> improv class. >> improv class. >> Exactly. Yeah. So, I think the improv >> Exactly. Yeah. So, I think the improv >> Exactly. Yeah. So, I think the improv classes are amazing because not only is classes are amazing because not only is classes are amazing because not only is it a chance to interact in a group over it a chance to interact in a group over it a chance to interact in a group over a a period of time where you don't get a a period of time where you don't get a a period of time where you don't get to opt out if you don't love somebody to opt out if you don't love somebody to opt out if you don't love somebody right away, but also you're like right away, but also you're like right away, but also you're like practicing being [laughter] vulnerable practicing being [laughter] vulnerable practicing being [laughter] vulnerable and in, you know, being responsive and and in, you know, being responsive and and in, you know, being responsive and things like that. So, I think these things like that. So, I think these things like that. So, I think these things are all wonderful. Are people things are all wonderful. Are people things are all wonderful. Are people doing it because they're trying to limit doing it because they're trying to limit doing it because they're trying to limit the pools to the folks that they think the pools to the folks that they think the pools to the folks that they think will fit what they're looking for? I'll will fit what they're looking for? I'll will fit what they're looking for? I'll bet you some people are doing that. I'll bet you some people are doing that. I'll bet you some people are doing that. I'll bet that, you know, if somebody's like, bet that, you know, if somebody's like, bet that, you know, if somebody's like, I really want to be with somebody else I really want to be with somebody else I really want to be with somebody else who's active, so I'm going to join a who's active, so I'm going to join a who's active, so I'm going to join a running club. Or, yeah, I want to be running club. Or, yeah, I want to be running club. Or, yeah, I want to be with somebody who shares my value, so with somebody who shares my value, so with somebody who shares my value, so I'm going to join church. I think that's I'm going to join church. I think that's I'm going to join church. I think that's great. If I'm like being buzzill great. If I'm like being buzzill great. If I'm like being buzzill scientist, scientist, scientist, I'd probably sit here and be like, it I'd probably sit here and be like, it I'd probably sit here and be like, it probably actually doesn't matter. Like, probably actually doesn't matter. Like, probably actually doesn't matter. Like, join the church, join the running club, join the church, join the running club, join the church, join the running club, join all these things. Like, you're join all these things. Like, you're join all these things. Like, you're probably know more or less likely to probably know more or less likely to probably know more or less likely to find somebody that you're going to click find somebody that you're going to click find somebody that you're going to click with. with. with. >> It's more about getting yourself in a >> It's more about getting yourself in a >> It's more about getting yourself in a small group environment. small group environment. small group environment. >> Exactly. Exactly. But I'll be the first >> Exactly. Exactly. But I'll be the first >> Exactly. Exactly. But I'll be the first to say like when it comes to like the to say like when it comes to like the to say like when it comes to like the base rates of these things, like if your base rates of these things, like if your base rates of these things, like if your if your goal was, you know, in 90 days I if your goal was, you know, in 90 days I if your goal was, you know, in 90 days I want to be in a relationship, what are want to be in a relationship, what are want to be in a relationship, what are the things I should do that give me the the things I should do that give me the the things I should do that give me the best likelihood? I'm embarrassed to say best likelihood? I'm embarrassed to say best likelihood? I'm embarrassed to say my field can't answer that question. I my field can't answer that question. I my field can't answer that question. I can't tell you, you know, use two apps can't tell you, you know, use two apps can't tell you, you know, use two apps and use these two apps and go to church. and use these two apps and go to church. and use these two apps and go to church. Don't join kickball cuz they're a mess. Don't join kickball cuz they're a mess. Don't join kickball cuz they're a mess. I was a kickball player, so I'm allowed I was a kickball player, so I'm allowed I was a kickball player, so I'm allowed to say that. Uh but you should join the to say that. Uh but you should join the to say that. Uh but you should join the running club. We can't answer questions running club. We can't answer questions running club. We can't answer questions like that. So, in the absence of that like that. So, in the absence of that like that. So, in the absence of that kind of specificity, my answer is always kind of specificity, my answer is always kind of specificity, my answer is always just be around people on repeated just be around people on repeated just be around people on repeated occasions. occasions. occasions. >> I'm not trying to provide push back >> I'm not trying to provide push back >> I'm not trying to provide push back here. I'm not qualified to do it. I'm here. I'm not qualified to do it. I'm here. I'm not qualified to do it. I'm going to I'm from a totally different going to I'm from a totally different going to I'm from a totally different field. But I feel like there's certain field. But I feel like there's certain field. But I feel like there's certain small group smallish group environments small group smallish group environments small group smallish group environments like church. But there there could be like church. But there there could be like church. But there there could be other examples like for instance like a other examples like for instance like a other examples like for instance like a hiking club or rock climbing or hiking club or rock climbing or hiking club or rock climbing or something like that where something like that where something like that where >> there's kind of a um this shouldn't be >> there's kind of a um this shouldn't be >> there's kind of a um this shouldn't be the reason uh people do it and the only the reason uh people do it and the only the reason uh people do it and the only reason people do it but let's say um reason people do it but let's say um reason people do it but let's say um people pair up as a consequence of time people pair up as a consequence of time people pair up as a consequence of time there there there >> that the culture of that thing provides >> that the culture of that thing provides >> that the culture of that thing provides additional opportunities to uh grow the additional opportunities to uh grow the additional opportunities to uh grow the relationship with peers right because relationship with peers right because relationship with peers right because there certain things like you join an there certain things like you join an there certain things like you join an improv class great like big my sister's improv class great like big my sister's improv class great like big my sister's really into drama and theater still does really into drama and theater still does really into drama and theater still does theater classes for her own her own theater classes for her own her own theater classes for her own her own enrichment. But like but if you meet enrichment. But like but if you meet enrichment. But like but if you meet someone there, it's not like the the the someone there, it's not like the the the someone there, it's not like the the the culture around it um sort of cultivates culture around it um sort of cultivates culture around it um sort of cultivates the evolution of the relationship. Like the evolution of the relationship. Like the evolution of the relationship. Like whereas in like church like you might whereas in like church like you might whereas in like church like you might even get married in that church in the even get married in that church in the even get married in that church in the context of a of a hiking club, like you context of a of a hiking club, like you context of a of a hiking club, like you might be out with the other couples that might be out with the other couples that might be out with the other couples that you meet or or single people that you you meet or or single people that you you meet or or single people that you meet for many years. Like you can sort meet for many years. Like you can sort meet for many years. Like you can sort of it's it's a community that that can of it's it's a community that that can of it's it's a community that that can grow over time. certain things here I'm grow over time. certain things here I'm grow over time. certain things here I'm showing my ignorance around improv showing my ignorance around improv showing my ignorance around improv classes but certain things like a classes but certain things like a classes but certain things like a pottery class or pickle ball or pottery class or pickle ball or pottery class or pickle ball or something like something like something like >> it doesn't just at face value present a >> it doesn't just at face value present a >> it doesn't just at face value present a sort of trajectory of like sort of trajectory of like sort of trajectory of like >> that's right >> that's right >> that's right >> I'm sounding really nerdy here but kind >> I'm sounding really nerdy here but kind >> I'm sounding really nerdy here but kind of like a a set of maturational stages of like a a set of maturational stages of like a a set of maturational stages that it that you can continue to like be that it that you can continue to like be that it that you can continue to like be in the relationship there does that make in the relationship there does that make in the relationship there does that make sense really stumbling for the words sense really stumbling for the words sense really stumbling for the words here no totally this by the way is a here no totally this by the way is a here no totally this by the way is a great reason to not meet people at work great reason to not meet people at work great reason to not meet people at work >> not meet people at work. I'm not trying >> not meet people at work. I'm not trying >> not meet people at work. I'm not trying to like throw a cold blanket on people to like throw a cold blanket on people to like throw a cold blanket on people who decide to meet people at work, but who decide to meet people at work, but who decide to meet people at work, but often times often times that the often times often times that the often times often times that the relationship doesn't necessarily relationship doesn't necessarily relationship doesn't necessarily flourish in the context of the work flourish in the context of the work flourish in the context of the work environment. It's not like the work environment. It's not like the work environment. It's not like the work environment makes the relationship grow. environment makes the relationship grow. environment makes the relationship grow. I've seen more things split over time if I've seen more things split over time if I've seen more things split over time if both people work there. Often times they both people work there. Often times they both people work there. Often times they have to move to separate buildings, have to move to separate buildings, have to move to separate buildings, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Um just for a variety of reasons, but >> Um just for a variety of reasons, but >> Um just for a variety of reasons, but it's not like the culture encourages it. it's not like the culture encourages it. it's not like the culture encourages it. Whereas there are certain things that Whereas there are certain things that Whereas there are certain things that are a bit more since you were talking are a bit more since you were talking are a bit more since you were talking for a moment there like an evolutionary for a moment there like an evolutionary for a moment there like an evolutionary biologist like we evolved in small biologist like we evolved in small biologist like we evolved in small villages and small groups where villages and small groups where villages and small groups where >> you know you had peers and elders that >> you know you had peers and elders that >> you know you had peers and elders that that provide this positive reinforcement that provide this positive reinforcement that provide this positive reinforcement on relationship. You know it's kind of on relationship. You know it's kind of on relationship. You know it's kind of an interesting thing like no matter how an interesting thing like no matter how an interesting thing like no matter how evolved we are or progressive we are. evolved we are or progressive we are. evolved we are or progressive we are. >> I don't know many women that ask men to >> I don't know many women that ask men to >> I don't know many women that ask men to marry them marry them marry them >> in 2026. I'm sure they're out there, but >> in 2026. I'm sure they're out there, but >> in 2026. I'm sure they're out there, but it's still the it's still the it's still the >> tacid assumption that men are going to >> tacid assumption that men are going to >> tacid assumption that men are going to do the asking. do the asking. do the asking. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Just saying. >> Just saying. >> Just saying. >> Okay. So, how progressive are we really? >> Okay. So, how progressive are we really? >> Okay. So, how progressive are we really? Right. It's also true that when people Right. It's also true that when people Right. It's also true that when people get married, most of the time they stand get married, most of the time they stand get married, most of the time they stand up in front of other people and state up in front of other people and state up in front of other people and state their vows. This is not like, you know, their vows. This is not like, you know, their vows. This is not like, you know, uh, you know, under the bed sheets, I uh, you know, under the bed sheets, I uh, you know, under the bed sheets, I promise. I promise I This is like a promise. I promise I This is like a promise. I promise I This is like a public disclosure. These days it ends up public disclosure. These days it ends up public disclosure. These days it ends up on Instagram, on Instagram, on Instagram, >> you know. So, you know, there's clearly >> you know. So, you know, there's clearly >> you know. So, you know, there's clearly a feedback that comes from being part of a feedback that comes from being part of a feedback that comes from being part of a larger structure that reinforces a larger structure that reinforces a larger structure that reinforces relationships over time. relationships over time. relationships over time. >> Yeah. And it can be a big >> Yeah. And it can be a big >> Yeah. And it can be a big >> You promised, you didn't just promise to >> You promised, you didn't just promise to >> You promised, you didn't just promise to me, you promised to the whole world, me, you promised to the whole world, me, you promised to the whole world, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And that can be an important source of >> And that can be an important source of >> And that can be an important source of support, too, because then it's that at support, too, because then it's that at support, too, because then it's that at least the subjective sense like these least the subjective sense like these least the subjective sense like these people have our backs, right? if we run people have our backs, right? if we run people have our backs, right? if we run into hard times, into hard times, into hard times, >> there's a community that's going to be >> there's a community that's going to be >> there's a community that's going to be there and support us. there and support us. there and support us. >> And then I think you're right on the >> And then I think you're right on the >> And then I think you're right on the initial attraction side, having a sense initial attraction side, having a sense initial attraction side, having a sense that we're part of this larger that we're part of this larger that we're part of this larger collective that there's something about collective that there's something about collective that there's something about that that that feels good and provides that that that feels good and provides that that that feels good and provides structure that like that can help keep structure that like that can help keep structure that like that can help keep moving things forward. And you're right moving things forward. And you're right moving things forward. And you're right that the workplace context is that the workplace context is that the workplace context is particularly tricky because many particularly tricky because many particularly tricky because many workplaces don't want to encourage that workplaces don't want to encourage that workplaces don't want to encourage that kind of thing. And it's going to often kind of thing. And it's going to often kind of thing. And it's going to often happen anyway. And probably the smartest happen anyway. And probably the smartest happen anyway. And probably the smartest workplaces are the ones that allow for workplaces are the ones that allow for workplaces are the ones that allow for the possibility that peers are going to the possibility that peers are going to the possibility that peers are going to get together and have structures in get together and have structures in get together and have structures in place that that will be able to keep the place that that will be able to keep the place that that will be able to keep the personal life appropriately personal and personal life appropriately personal and personal life appropriately personal and then you know deal with the fallout if then you know deal with the fallout if then you know deal with the fallout if the if the fallout happens. One place I the if the fallout happens. One place I the if the fallout happens. One place I trained might have been UC Davis. All trained might have been UC Davis. All trained might have been UC Davis. All the junior faculty of which there were the junior faculty of which there were the junior faculty of which there were many of them when I first joined there many of them when I first joined there many of them when I first joined there were a large fraction of couples in the were a large fraction of couples in the were a large fraction of couples in the department or who had spouses in other department or who had spouses in other department or who had spouses in other departments departments departments >> I think more than 80% of those couples >> I think more than 80% of those couples >> I think more than 80% of those couples ended up divorced now wow ended up divorced now wow ended up divorced now wow >> now we can't there are a lot of >> now we can't there are a lot of >> now we can't there are a lot of variables there fortunately most of them variables there fortunately most of them variables there fortunately most of them are on good terms um I can't say they are on good terms um I can't say they are on good terms um I can't say they ended up with other people in the ended up with other people in the ended up with other people in the department that didn't happen department that didn't happen department that didn't happen >> but you know I watched and was like whoa >> but you know I watched and was like whoa >> but you know I watched and was like whoa like this is interesting uh you know like this is interesting uh you know like this is interesting uh you know this didn't I want to say didn't end this didn't I want to say didn't end this didn't I want to say didn't end well cuz I think they're all happy now well cuz I think they're all happy now well cuz I think they're all happy now but there does seem to be some but there does seem to be some but there does seem to be some additional stress uh of that. So I mean additional stress uh of that. So I mean additional stress uh of that. So I mean this gets to a question you've actually this gets to a question you've actually this gets to a question you've actually studied which is this notion of um studied which is this notion of um studied which is this notion of um >> similarity. >> similarity. >> similarity. >> So maybe we should talk more about that >> So maybe we should talk more about that >> So maybe we should talk more about that because it's more data driven uh because it's more data driven uh because it's more data driven uh question which is perceived similarity question which is perceived similarity question which is perceived similarity matters more than actual similarity. matters more than actual similarity. matters more than actual similarity. What is perceived similarity? So What is perceived similarity? So What is perceived similarity? So perceived similarity is this general perceived similarity is this general perceived similarity is this general sense like we have a lot in common. sense like we have a lot in common. sense like we have a lot in common. There are a million things that we could There are a million things that we could There are a million things that we could talk about. We share the same values and talk about. We share the same values and talk about. We share the same values and attitudes and preferences about things attitudes and preferences about things attitudes and preferences about things in general. But notice the way I'm in general. But notice the way I'm in general. But notice the way I'm describing it. I'm not tethering it to describing it. I'm not tethering it to describing it. I'm not tethering it to any particular attitude or value or any particular attitude or value or any particular attitude or value or preference or anything else because it's preference or anything else because it's preference or anything else because it's so free floating. I as the perceiver get so free floating. I as the perceiver get so free floating. I as the perceiver get to attach it to whatever I want and that to attach it to whatever I want and that to attach it to whatever I want and that uh affords people to have a certain uh affords people to have a certain uh affords people to have a certain amount of motivated reasoning so that amount of motivated reasoning so that amount of motivated reasoning so that when they like somebody a lot they will when they like somebody a lot they will when they like somebody a lot they will find the similarities there. They will find the similarities there. They will find the similarities there. They will really come to think that what really really come to think that what really really come to think that what really matters is that we love Japanese cinema matters is that we love Japanese cinema matters is that we love Japanese cinema and that we you know that we share the and that we you know that we share the and that we you know that we share the same politics. Whereas for another same politics. Whereas for another same politics. Whereas for another couple, uh, you know what, we have couple, uh, you know what, we have couple, uh, you know what, we have different politics, but that doesn't different politics, but that doesn't different politics, but that doesn't really matter to us. really matter to us. really matter to us. >> Does anyone say that nowadays? >> Does anyone say that nowadays? >> Does anyone say that nowadays? >> No, people still do. I mean, look, we >> No, people still do. I mean, look, we >> No, people still do. I mean, look, we what you see in the political matching what you see in the political matching what you see in the political matching data is that the odds that people ofo, data is that the odds that people ofo, data is that the odds that people ofo, you know, diametrically opposed you know, diametrically opposed you know, diametrically opposed preferences, the odds they're going to preferences, the odds they're going to preferences, the odds they're going to get together in the first place are get together in the first place are get together in the first place are very, very low. But among the mismatches very, very low. But among the mismatches very, very low. But among the mismatches that do exist, it actually doesn't that do exist, it actually doesn't that do exist, it actually doesn't predict satisfaction all that much. And predict satisfaction all that much. And predict satisfaction all that much. And I think this is why because you just I think this is why because you just I think this is why because you just compartmentalize it. If we match, it's compartmentalize it. If we match, it's compartmentalize it. If we match, it's important. If we don't match, oh, who important. If we don't match, oh, who important. If we don't match, oh, who cares? Does anybody care about that? cares? Does anybody care about that? cares? Does anybody care about that? Right? So much motivated reasoning. So, Right? So much motivated reasoning. So, Right? So much motivated reasoning. So, this is why if what I wanted to do was this is why if what I wanted to do was this is why if what I wanted to do was take two people who had never met and take two people who had never met and take two people who had never met and assess everything I could about them and assess everything I could about them and assess everything I could about them and then figure out whether they were going then figure out whether they were going then figure out whether they were going to be a match or not, ba based on to be a match or not, ba based on to be a match or not, ba based on whether they were similar, I really was whether they were similar, I really was whether they were similar, I really was probably going to be no better than a probably going to be no better than a probably going to be no better than a coin flip at figuring out whether or not coin flip at figuring out whether or not coin flip at figuring out whether or not they were going to click. That's actual they were going to click. That's actual they were going to click. That's actual similarity. I take things that are true similarity. I take things that are true similarity. I take things that are true about you without the ability for you to about you without the ability for you to about you without the ability for you to engage in motivated reasoning and I say, engage in motivated reasoning and I say, engage in motivated reasoning and I say, "Okay, you're an 83% match on all the "Okay, you're an 83% match on all the "Okay, you're an 83% match on all the things I could assess. You two should things I could assess. You two should things I could assess. You two should like each other." When we've done like each other." When we've done like each other." When we've done studies like that, you you basically get studies like that, you you basically get studies like that, you you basically get a coin flip every time. Well, this is a coin flip every time. Well, this is a coin flip every time. Well, this is why the apps seem totally useless why the apps seem totally useless why the apps seem totally useless because if you were just pair up, well, because if you were just pair up, well, because if you were just pair up, well, you want this and you want this, I want you want this and you want this, I want you want this and you want this, I want that, too, and I want that, too. You're that, too, and I want that, too. You're that, too, and I want that, too. You're telling me that it's as good as chance. telling me that it's as good as chance. telling me that it's as good as chance. It's as good as chance. And look, if It's as good as chance. And look, if It's as good as chance. And look, if there's evidence for similarity on there's evidence for similarity on there's evidence for similarity on anything, it could be in the realm of anything, it could be in the realm of anything, it could be in the realm of like demographics, like demographics, like demographics, socioeconomic status kinds of things. I socioeconomic status kinds of things. I socioeconomic status kinds of things. I I've seen like unpublished data, but I've seen like unpublished data, but I've seen like unpublished data, but promising, but even then, those effects promising, but even then, those effects promising, but even then, those effects are so small. So, I'm, you know, we're are so small. So, I'm, you know, we're are so small. So, I'm, you know, we're going from a 50/50 coin flip to like going from a 50/50 coin flip to like going from a 50/50 coin flip to like 5347. These are small effects across the 5347. These are small effects across the 5347. These are small effects across the board because we get all of this board because we get all of this board because we get all of this motivational latitude. When we really motivational latitude. When we really motivational latitude. When we really like somebody, we find the things we like somebody, we find the things we like somebody, we find the things we have in common. We focus on those. We have in common. We focus on those. We have in common. We focus on those. We convince ourselves those are the most convince ourselves those are the most convince ourselves those are the most important things in the world. And the important things in the world. And the important things in the world. And the thing is, who am I to criticize them thing is, who am I to criticize them thing is, who am I to criticize them because the people in the happiest because the people in the happiest because the people in the happiest relationships, that's what they're relationships, that's what they're relationships, that's what they're doing. They're exhibiting those kinds of doing. They're exhibiting those kinds of doing. They're exhibiting those kinds of biases. And it's like stupid human biases. And it's like stupid human biases. And it's like stupid human tricks, but it like kind of works. tricks, but it like kind of works. tricks, but it like kind of works. >> You want to hear something really scary? >> You want to hear something really scary? >> You want to hear something really scary? >> Yeah. Uh, you probably know this >> Yeah. Uh, you probably know this >> Yeah. Uh, you probably know this already, but I was shocked. Uh, let's already, but I was shocked. Uh, let's already, but I was shocked. Uh, let's just say someone I know who would know just say someone I know who would know just say someone I know who would know um told me that the biggest dating app um told me that the biggest dating app um told me that the biggest dating app in the world by an enormous margin is in the world by an enormous margin is in the world by an enormous margin is >> it's not Tinder, >> it's not Tinder, >> it's not Tinder, >> Instagram. >> Instagram. >> Instagram. >> Oh, >> Oh, >> Oh, >> and this was actually very much in >> and this was actually very much in >> and this was actually very much in parallel parallel parallel >> to the the algorithm favoring >> to the the algorithm favoring >> to the the algorithm favoring communication by direct message. People communication by direct message. People communication by direct message. People will say like social media isn't social will say like social media isn't social will say like social media isn't social anymore. It's not about like seeing what anymore. It's not about like seeing what anymore. It's not about like seeing what people are doing. The real dynamics, the people are doing. The real dynamics, the people are doing. The real dynamics, the real time spent, and you'll notice how real time spent, and you'll notice how real time spent, and you'll notice how you get rewarded and what gets served up you get rewarded and what gets served up you get rewarded and what gets served up in the algorithm. Rewarded meaning like in the algorithm. Rewarded meaning like in the algorithm. Rewarded meaning like what what posts do better than others. what what posts do better than others. what what posts do better than others. >> If there's a strong correlate to >> If there's a strong correlate to >> If there's a strong correlate to communication about that through direct communication about that through direct communication about that through direct message, it's a dating app that's kind message, it's a dating app that's kind message, it's a dating app that's kind of cloaked for many people as a social of cloaked for many people as a social of cloaked for many people as a social media app. But of course, I use it to media app. But of course, I use it to media app. But of course, I use it to teach neuroscience, right? And and other teach neuroscience, right? And and other teach neuroscience, right? And and other things. And this will be on Instagram. things. And this will be on Instagram. things. And this will be on Instagram. So, I mean, I'm a big fan of of So, I mean, I'm a big fan of of So, I mean, I'm a big fan of of Instagram and other social media Instagram and other social media Instagram and other social media platforms for teaching and learning. And platforms for teaching and learning. And platforms for teaching and learning. And I say that sincerely, but the majority I say that sincerely, but the majority I say that sincerely, but the majority of the time spent now is not scrolling. of the time spent now is not scrolling. of the time spent now is not scrolling. It's it's getting to communications that It's it's getting to communications that It's it's getting to communications that move to real world and then feed back move to real world and then feed back move to real world and then feed back >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> to social media. So, I found that um >> to social media. So, I found that um >> to social media. So, I found that um interesting. So, I'm imagining a interesting. So, I'm imagining a interesting. So, I'm imagining a question uh because you study questions question uh because you study questions question uh because you study questions people ask them on dates. And we used to people ask them on dates. And we used to people ask them on dates. And we used to be able to say, be able to say, be able to say, >> if you were on a deserted island, >> if you were on a deserted island, >> if you were on a deserted island, >> who would you want to be there with? >> who would you want to be there with? >> who would you want to be there with? Like, who's the one person that you Like, who's the one person that you Like, who's the one person that you could stand being with or perhaps even could stand being with or perhaps even could stand being with or perhaps even really enjoy being with, assuming you really enjoy being with, assuming you really enjoy being with, assuming you have all the resources? have all the resources? have all the resources? >> Now, I think the question should be, >> Now, I think the question should be, >> Now, I think the question should be, >> who's the one person that would get you >> who's the one person that would get you >> who's the one person that would get you to not engage with anyone else in in the to not engage with anyone else in in the to not engage with anyone else in in the world? In other words, set down what you world? In other words, set down what you world? In other words, set down what you called, and I've never heard this called, and I've never heard this called, and I've never heard this before, the derivation of alternatives. before, the derivation of alternatives. before, the derivation of alternatives. >> This is an interesting term. So, in some >> This is an interesting term. So, in some >> This is an interesting term. So, in some ways, like committed partnership is ways, like committed partnership is ways, like committed partnership is about setting aside the idea that there about setting aside the idea that there about setting aside the idea that there might be somebody better for us. might be somebody better for us. might be somebody better for us. >> And I would argue, again, I have strong >> And I would argue, again, I have strong >> And I would argue, again, I have strong positive feelings towards Instagram. Um, positive feelings towards Instagram. Um, positive feelings towards Instagram. Um, I really do. Uh, it's a a fun and great I really do. Uh, it's a a fun and great I really do. Uh, it's a a fun and great platform when used in, you know, platform when used in, you know, platform when used in, you know, moderation. Yeah. But it's the opposite moderation. Yeah. But it's the opposite moderation. Yeah. But it's the opposite of the deserted island. And a former of the deserted island. And a former of the deserted island. And a former guest on this podcast who happens to be guest on this podcast who happens to be guest on this podcast who happens to be a divorce lawyer, um, James Ston, has a divorce lawyer, um, James Ston, has a divorce lawyer, um, James Ston, has talked about the fact that many, many, talked about the fact that many, many, talked about the fact that many, many, many of the divorces that he um, many of the divorces that he um, many of the divorces that he um, >> litigates, no, that he that he's >> litigates, no, that he that he's >> litigates, no, that he that he's involved in. Yeah. That he helps resolve involved in. Yeah. That he helps resolve involved in. Yeah. That he helps resolve uh, win for his clients started with uh, uh, win for his clients started with uh, uh, win for his clients started with uh, a a a >> innocuous communication on his starts >> innocuous communication on his starts >> innocuous communication on his starts with a like. starts with a like, starts with a like. starts with a like, starts with a like. starts with a like, starts with a conversation, starts with a ends with a conversation, starts with a ends with a conversation, starts with a ends up in the corner of a grievance or a or up in the corner of a grievance or a or up in the corner of a grievance or a or a a commonality that's sensed and then a a commonality that's sensed and then a a commonality that's sensed and then the derivation of alternatives emerges the derivation of alternatives emerges the derivation of alternatives emerges and eventually the relationship and eventually the relationship and eventually the relationship dissolves. dissolves. dissolves. >> We think about how people handle >> We think about how people handle >> We think about how people handle alternative partners. If you're in a alternative partners. If you're in a alternative partners. If you're in a purportedly monogous relationship, this purportedly monogous relationship, this purportedly monogous relationship, this is a challenge that relationships are is a challenge that relationships are is a challenge that relationships are going to face and going to face and going to face and I sort of see these like twin streams I sort of see these like twin streams I sort of see these like twin streams happening at the same time. So happening at the same time. So happening at the same time. So what you see in general is that for what you see in general is that for what you see in general is that for people who are in relationships and people who are in relationships and people who are in relationships and especially if they are happy in that especially if they are happy in that especially if they are happy in that relationship, relationship, relationship, any alternative partner that you can any alternative partner that you can any alternative partner that you can throw at them, throw at them, throw at them, they will tend to think that that they will tend to think that that they will tend to think that that alternative partner is pretty weak alternative partner is pretty weak alternative partner is pretty weak sauce. They think that person is less sauce. They think that person is less sauce. They think that person is less desirable than any other metric you desirable than any other metric you desirable than any other metric you might want to come up with for how might want to come up with for how might want to come up with for how desirable that person actually is. desirable that person actually is. desirable that person actually is. That's what we mean by deriggation of That's what we mean by deriggation of That's what we mean by deriggation of alternatives. It's like they're coming alternatives. It's like they're coming alternatives. It's like they're coming in up here, but because I'm partnered in up here, but because I'm partnered in up here, but because I'm partnered with you and I'm happy with you, I see with you and I'm happy with you, I see with you and I'm happy with you, I see them as less desirable than they them as less desirable than they them as less desirable than they actually are. Side note, that's why this actually are. Side note, that's why this actually are. Side note, that's why this one of the reasons why the marketplace one of the reasons why the marketplace one of the reasons why the marketplace metaphor starts to break down because metaphor starts to break down because metaphor starts to break down because people actually start to become bad people actually start to become bad people actually start to become bad barometers of what is quote unquote barometers of what is quote unquote barometers of what is quote unquote good. You stop seeing this alternative's good. You stop seeing this alternative's good. You stop seeing this alternative's actual value because you're so happy actual value because you're so happy actual value because you're so happy with the person that you have. Okay. So, with the person that you have. Okay. So, with the person that you have. Okay. So, this is a good thing and this is a real this is a good thing and this is a real this is a good thing and this is a real defense mechanism that people have. defense mechanism that people have. defense mechanism that people have. >> Is it a defense mechanism or I mean, but >> Is it a defense mechanism or I mean, but >> Is it a defense mechanism or I mean, but it's protective of healthy monogous it's protective of healthy monogous it's protective of healthy monogous relationship. relationship. relationship. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean it in the >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean it in the >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean it in the best Yeah. You know what? That's so best Yeah. You know what? That's so best Yeah. You know what? That's so funny because in our jargon we say funny because in our jargon we say funny because in our jargon we say defense mechanism. I mean that in the defense mechanism. I mean that in the defense mechanism. I mean that in the best possible mechanism. best possible mechanism. best possible mechanism. >> Yeah. Protective mechanism. Right. Yeah. >> Yeah. Protective mechanism. Right. Yeah. >> Yeah. Protective mechanism. Right. Yeah. You're defending the relationship. You're defending the relationship. You're defending the relationship. That's so funny. I'd like forgotten. That's so funny. I'd like forgotten. That's so funny. I'd like forgotten. >> We've had a few too many uh >> We've had a few too many uh >> We've had a few too many uh psychologist. Right. Of course. that has psychologist. Right. Of course. that has psychologist. Right. Of course. that has a negative connotation for some people, a negative connotation for some people, a negative connotation for some people, not for me. Okay? So, it's a protective not for me. Okay? So, it's a protective not for me. Okay? So, it's a protective mechanism, but at the same time, people mechanism, but at the same time, people mechanism, but at the same time, people also do this thing that you might call also do this thing that you might call also do this thing that you might call like playing with fire, but it's more like playing with fire, but it's more like playing with fire, but it's more like, you know, playing with what really like, you know, playing with what really like, you know, playing with what really seems to be a harmless book of matches. seems to be a harmless book of matches. seems to be a harmless book of matches. And I just I'm just messaging these And I just I'm just messaging these And I just I'm just messaging these people. Well, what's the big deal? This people. Well, what's the big deal? This people. Well, what's the big deal? This isn't going to go anywhere. Uh I'm just, isn't going to go anywhere. Uh I'm just, isn't going to go anywhere. Uh I'm just, you know, we're we're we're chatting a you know, we're we're we're chatting a you know, we're we're we're chatting a little bit. This isn't going to go little bit. This isn't going to go little bit. This isn't going to go anywhere. And things escalate. Sorry to anywhere. And things escalate. Sorry to anywhere. And things escalate. Sorry to interrupt, but um and you know, one of interrupt, but um and you know, one of interrupt, but um and you know, one of uh uh uh >> our former guests on this podcast who's >> our former guests on this podcast who's >> our former guests on this podcast who's immensely popular in the dating immensely popular in the dating immensely popular in the dating relationships and romance sphere is relationships and romance sphere is relationships and romance sphere is Esther Prell, and I don't want to put Esther Prell, and I don't want to put Esther Prell, and I don't want to put words in her mouth, but I think the words in her mouth, but I think the words in her mouth, but I think the perception about some of her messaging, perception about some of her messaging, perception about some of her messaging, whether accurate or not, is that there whether accurate or not, is that there whether accurate or not, is that there can be some value to, you know, in in can be some value to, you know, in in can be some value to, you know, in in her first book, I think, and I haven't her first book, I think, and I haven't her first book, I think, and I haven't read it, but um the the excerpt that was read it, but um the the excerpt that was read it, but um the the excerpt that was uh relayed to me was this notion like, uh relayed to me was this notion like, uh relayed to me was this notion like, oh, like someone isn't feeling as much oh, like someone isn't feeling as much oh, like someone isn't feeling as much chemistry in a relationship. So, like chemistry in a relationship. So, like chemistry in a relationship. So, like the woman, this wouldn't happen nowadays the woman, this wouldn't happen nowadays the woman, this wouldn't happen nowadays most likely, but goes to a bar and like most likely, but goes to a bar and like most likely, but goes to a bar and like flirts a bit and then like some some flirts a bit and then like some some flirts a bit and then like some some sense of of um sexual confidence is sense of of um sexual confidence is sense of of um sexual confidence is restored and then her husband is then restored and then her husband is then restored and then her husband is then attracted to her differently again. And attracted to her differently again. And attracted to her differently again. And you know, I've heard the more crude you know, I've heard the more crude you know, I've heard the more crude phrase, doesn't matter where you get phrase, doesn't matter where you get phrase, doesn't matter where you get your appetite as long as you eat at your appetite as long as you eat at your appetite as long as you eat at home. This is more of the 1950s60s home. This is more of the 1950s60s home. This is more of the 1950s60s variety. By the way, none of these variety. By the way, none of these variety. By the way, none of these statements come from me, although my statements come from me, although my statements come from me, although my mouth is saying them. These are things mouth is saying them. These are things mouth is saying them. These are things that you hear out there, right? that you hear out there, right? that you hear out there, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. directly uh in opposition to what you're directly uh in opposition to what you're directly uh in opposition to what you're saying, which is not to say that what saying, which is not to say that what saying, which is not to say that what you're saying is wrong. I just think you're saying is wrong. I just think you're saying is wrong. I just think that there was a there was about a 20 or that there was a there was about a 20 or that there was a there was about a 20 or 30 year period there where people kind 30 year period there where people kind 30 year period there where people kind of assumed that monogamy could thrive. of assumed that monogamy could thrive. of assumed that monogamy could thrive. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Despite the inputs and monogamy could >> Despite the inputs and monogamy could >> Despite the inputs and monogamy could thrive perhaps even better if people thrive perhaps even better if people thrive perhaps even better if people acknowledge this aspect of self that is acknowledge this aspect of self that is acknowledge this aspect of self that is still attracted other people. They talk still attracted other people. They talk still attracted other people. They talk about it. what you're talking about is about it. what you're talking about is about it. what you're talking about is really a more of a protective cloak really a more of a protective cloak really a more of a protective cloak around the commitment. I do sense people around the commitment. I do sense people around the commitment. I do sense people are veering back toward that what you're are veering back toward that what you're are veering back toward that what you're describing. You know how I think about describing. You know how I think about describing. You know how I think about it is is the protective cloak it is is the protective cloak it is is the protective cloak um that that's sort of there as a um that that's sort of there as a um that that's sort of there as a baseline but then signals will get baseline but then signals will get baseline but then signals will get through some sometimes sometimes cuz through some sometimes sometimes cuz through some sometimes sometimes cuz you're messing around on Instagram but you're messing around on Instagram but you're messing around on Instagram but sometimes because you went to the bar sometimes because you went to the bar sometimes because you went to the bar with your friends and there was this with your friends and there was this with your friends and there was this cute guy who was chatting you up and the cute guy who was chatting you up and the cute guy who was chatting you up and the evidence there too I interpret I think evidence there too I interpret I think evidence there too I interpret I think the way a stair would interpret it and the way a stair would interpret it and the way a stair would interpret it and and what you see in the data also and what you see in the data also and what you see in the data also suggests something like a protect ive suggests something like a protect ive suggests something like a protect ive mechanism again it's playing with fire mechanism again it's playing with fire mechanism again it's playing with fire but if you look in studies where they but if you look in studies where they but if you look in studies where they ask people have a sexual fantasy about ask people have a sexual fantasy about ask people have a sexual fantasy about your partner now how much sexual desire your partner now how much sexual desire your partner now how much sexual desire do you feel for your partner it has gone do you feel for your partner it has gone do you feel for your partner it has gone up great that's pretty straightforward up great that's pretty straightforward up great that's pretty straightforward now please have a sexual fantasy about I now please have a sexual fantasy about I now please have a sexual fantasy about I don't know whoever's in second place don't know whoever's in second place don't know whoever's in second place that's not your partner that's not your partner that's not your partner then you start having sexual feelings then you start having sexual feelings then you start having sexual feelings for that person and you start having for that person and you start having for that person and you start having sexual feelings for your partner at the sexual feelings for your partner at the sexual feelings for your partner at the same time. So, it's exactly the metaphor same time. So, it's exactly the metaphor same time. So, it's exactly the metaphor that you're describing that when we feel that you're describing that when we feel that you're describing that when we feel a sense of attraction, it can rebound a sense of attraction, it can rebound a sense of attraction, it can rebound onto our partner. And by the way, it onto our partner. And by the way, it onto our partner. And by the way, it doesn't happen in the reverse. Okay. So, doesn't happen in the reverse. Okay. So, doesn't happen in the reverse. Okay. So, the partner, your current partner, the partner, your current partner, the partner, your current partner, again, for most people in happy again, for most people in happy again, for most people in happy relationships, holds a special position, relationships, holds a special position, relationships, holds a special position, you might say, where even when there is you might say, where even when there is you might say, where even when there is a little bit of a threat, and I've a little bit of a threat, and I've a little bit of a threat, and I've noticed somebody, it it rebounds noticed somebody, it it rebounds noticed somebody, it it rebounds somewhat. I don't advise that people go somewhat. I don't advise that people go somewhat. I don't advise that people go out and do this. You're saying it out and do this. You're saying it out and do this. You're saying it rebounds like it's a it's a fuel for the rebounds like it's a it's a fuel for the rebounds like it's a it's a fuel for the relationship the way that Esther and relationship the way that Esther and relationship the way that Esther and other people have talked about that's a other people have talked about that's a other people have talked about that's a real thing. real thing. real thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I mean it >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I mean it >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I mean it recent studies I can point to one or recent studies I can point to one or recent studies I can point to one or two. They're all like within the last two. They're all like within the last two. They're all like within the last few years. few years. few years. >> This is going to be very uncomfortable >> This is going to be very uncomfortable >> This is going to be very uncomfortable for some people to hear that their for some people to hear that their for some people to hear that their partner may come home immensely partner may come home immensely partner may come home immensely attracted to them because they had some attracted to them because they had some attracted to them because they had some sort of interaction during the day of sort of interaction during the day of sort of interaction during the day of either being attracted to someone or either being attracted to someone or either being attracted to someone or receiving signals of attractiveness. receiving signals of attractiveness. receiving signals of attractiveness. Right. Where I am a thousand% with with Right. Where I am a thousand% with with Right. Where I am a thousand% with with Estair is that the danger, the problem Estair is that the danger, the problem Estair is that the danger, the problem is not that your partner was sexually is not that your partner was sexually is not that your partner was sexually attracted to somebody else. The problem attracted to somebody else. The problem attracted to somebody else. The problem is usually in the escalation. It's yeah, is usually in the escalation. It's yeah, is usually in the escalation. It's yeah, but now are they like repeatedly hanging but now are they like repeatedly hanging but now are they like repeatedly hanging out with them and having like a out with them and having like a out with them and having like a conversations that they feel secretive conversations that they feel secretive conversations that they feel secretive about or that you know if if it's you about or that you know if if it's you about or that you know if if it's you that you feel secretive about? Those are that you feel secretive about? Those are that you feel secretive about? Those are the warning signs because then what will the warning signs because then what will the warning signs because then what will start to happen is that the protective start to happen is that the protective start to happen is that the protective layer that people typically put around layer that people typically put around layer that people typically put around their partners, it will start to erode their partners, it will start to erode their partners, it will start to erode and that's when people are at a greater and that's when people are at a greater and that's when people are at a greater risk of infidelity. It's usually a risk of infidelity. It's usually a risk of infidelity. It's usually a process like that. The simple fact that process like that. The simple fact that process like that. The simple fact that we can be attracted to other people that we can be attracted to other people that we can be attracted to other people that is not a problem for the average is not a problem for the average is not a problem for the average relationship. It's the repeated follow relationship. It's the repeated follow relationship. It's the repeated follow through on that attraction that becomes through on that attraction that becomes through on that attraction that becomes a problem. And that's something that a problem. And that's something that a problem. And that's something that evolved in recent years that there used evolved in recent years that there used evolved in recent years that there used to be far more transient interactions to be far more transient interactions to be far more transient interactions that would never resurface again. You that would never resurface again. You that would never resurface again. You sit next to someone on a plane, you'd sit next to someone on a plane, you'd sit next to someone on a plane, you'd have a conversation. Uh there might be have a conversation. Uh there might be have a conversation. Uh there might be attraction, there might not be, but you attraction, there might not be, but you attraction, there might not be, but you develop some degree of intimacy. Some develop some degree of intimacy. Some develop some degree of intimacy. Some people would disclose a lot on planes people would disclose a lot on planes people would disclose a lot on planes and then you never hear or talk to them and then you never hear or talk to them and then you never hear or talk to them again. Nowadays, there's almost always again. Nowadays, there's almost always again. Nowadays, there's almost always an opportunity for people to follow up an opportunity for people to follow up an opportunity for people to follow up and connect with people. That's what and connect with people. That's what and connect with people. That's what James Ston is referring to. Yeah. when James Ston is referring to. Yeah. when James Ston is referring to. Yeah. when he talks about social media being a um he talks about social media being a um he talks about social media being a um an uh borrowing other person's language an uh borrowing other person's language an uh borrowing other person's language here an attack vector, you know, on a here an attack vector, you know, on a here an attack vector, you know, on a relationship and maybe that is a good relationship and maybe that is a good relationship and maybe that is a good reason for people who are in committed reason for people who are in committed reason for people who are in committed relationships to just get off of social relationships to just get off of social relationships to just get off of social media period. But it's also a context media period. But it's also a context media period. But it's also a context where people spend quote unquote spend where people spend quote unquote spend where people spend quote unquote spend time with people for other reasons. time with people for other reasons. time with people for other reasons. >> Yeah, it's tricky. Uh if if I I don't >> Yeah, it's tricky. Uh if if I I don't >> Yeah, it's tricky. Uh if if I I don't recommend using that sort of process to recommend using that sort of process to recommend using that sort of process to bolster your relationship. I guess if bolster your relationship. I guess if bolster your relationship. I guess if you're going to do it, you know, try to you're going to do it, you know, try to you're going to do it, you know, try to do it by watching somebody. Um, yeah. do it by watching somebody. Um, yeah. do it by watching somebody. Um, yeah. Who's uh Yeah. figure out if you're a Who's uh Yeah. figure out if you're a Who's uh Yeah. figure out if you're a man who's with a woman, just ask her man who's with a woman, just ask her man who's with a woman, just ask her like what actor does she have the hots like what actor does she have the hots like what actor does she have the hots for and like be kind enough to watch a for and like be kind enough to watch a for and like be kind enough to watch a movie featuring him. Like maybe that's movie featuring him. Like maybe that's movie featuring him. Like maybe that's that's a way to make this work. that's a way to make this work. that's a way to make this work. >> Or the reverse. Yeah, sure. >> Or the reverse. Yeah, sure. >> Or the reverse. Yeah, sure. >> Some of the um what appear to be the >> Some of the um what appear to be the >> Some of the um what appear to be the strongest and happiest couples that I strongest and happiest couples that I strongest and happiest couples that I know, I know very little about their know, I know very little about their know, I know very little about their dynamics, period. dynamics, period. dynamics, period. >> Yeah. which is kind of an interesting >> Yeah. which is kind of an interesting >> Yeah. which is kind of an interesting thing in its own right, but some of the thing in its own right, but some of the thing in its own right, but some of the people that are in that set seem to have people that are in that set seem to have people that are in that set seem to have a pretty uh relaxed a pretty uh relaxed a pretty uh relaxed >> rapport around, oh yeah, uh so and so >> rapport around, oh yeah, uh so and so >> rapport around, oh yeah, uh so and so referring to their spouse really likes referring to their spouse really likes referring to their spouse really likes that actor or actress. Like it's like that actor or actress. Like it's like that actor or actress. Like it's like it's just kind of a thing that they it's just kind of a thing that they it's just kind of a thing that they understand, but it's over there, understand, but it's over there, understand, but it's over there, >> right? It's it's at a distance. Yeah. >> right? It's it's at a distance. Yeah. >> right? It's it's at a distance. Yeah. It's not um it's not like a looming It's not um it's not like a looming It's not um it's not like a looming threat. threat. threat. >> It's very different if it's about >> It's very different if it's about >> It's very different if it's about somebody that you both like know and somebody that you both like know and somebody that you both like know and spend time with. It's much more spend time with. It's much more spend time with. It's much more threatening in those cases. And and I threatening in those cases. And and I threatening in those cases. And and I think that also is part of why that think that also is part of why that think that also is part of why that deraggation process happens is because deraggation process happens is because deraggation process happens is because that threat feels very uncomfortable. that threat feels very uncomfortable. that threat feels very uncomfortable. Like even if it's your attraction, like Like even if it's your attraction, like Like even if it's your attraction, like you kind of want to downplay it because you kind of want to downplay it because you kind of want to downplay it because the thought of what would it mean if I'm the thought of what would it mean if I'm the thought of what would it mean if I'm like with the wrong person or like what like with the wrong person or like what like with the wrong person or like what would happen if this thing spiraled out would happen if this thing spiraled out would happen if this thing spiraled out of control, it it's upsetting for most of control, it it's upsetting for most of control, it it's upsetting for most people. I mean, we take all this time to people. I mean, we take all this time to people. I mean, we take all this time to build a relationship up to be this thing build a relationship up to be this thing build a relationship up to be this thing that we really value that's a central that we really value that's a central that we really value that's a central part of our lives. The thought that like part of our lives. The thought that like part of our lives. The thought that like it could disappear at a moment's notice it could disappear at a moment's notice it could disappear at a moment's notice because of of a a mistake that we would because of of a a mistake that we would because of of a a mistake that we would make, it it can be threatening to most make, it it can be threatening to most make, it it can be threatening to most people. E even if we're imagining people. E even if we're imagining people. E even if we're imagining ourselves ourselves ourselves engaging in the actions that would bring engaging in the actions that would bring engaging in the actions that would bring things to an end. things to an end. things to an end. I heard a really scary story that may or I heard a really scary story that may or I heard a really scary story that may or may not be informative. may not be informative. may not be informative. >> I think it is and maybe you can help me >> I think it is and maybe you can help me >> I think it is and maybe you can help me understand it. Anytime someone starts a understand it. Anytime someone starts a understand it. Anytime someone starts a story with I have a friend, it gets a a story with I have a friend, it gets a a story with I have a friend, it gets a a little [laughter] little [laughter] little [laughter] weird, but based on an observation I had weird, but based on an observation I had weird, but based on an observation I had a long time ago a long time ago a long time ago >> where I was going to a gym and I had a >> where I was going to a gym and I had a >> where I was going to a gym and I had a tr truly just platonic friendship with tr truly just platonic friendship with tr truly just platonic friendship with this woman. uh she would go to the gym this woman. uh she would go to the gym this woman. uh she would go to the gym too. Back then, not a lot of women too. Back then, not a lot of women too. Back then, not a lot of women worked out in gyms if I'm honest. Like worked out in gyms if I'm honest. Like worked out in gyms if I'm honest. Like like it was like not a lot of women like it was like not a lot of women like it was like not a lot of women lifted weights. It was like something lifted weights. It was like something lifted weights. It was like something that was kind of reserved for guys or that was kind of reserved for guys or that was kind of reserved for guys or for female bodybuilders, but she wasn't for female bodybuilders, but she wasn't for female bodybuilders, but she wasn't a bodybuilder, but she she liked lifting a bodybuilder, but she she liked lifting a bodybuilder, but she she liked lifting weights and super fit. She's a super weights and super fit. She's a super weights and super fit. She's a super accomplished athlete now. accomplished athlete now. accomplished athlete now. >> She um one day when we were leaving, she >> She um one day when we were leaving, she >> She um one day when we were leaving, she was like really upset. I was like, was like really upset. I was like, was like really upset. I was like, "What's up?" And she's like, "All these "What's up?" And she's like, "All these "What's up?" And she's like, "All these guys kept coming up to me." And I'm guys kept coming up to me." And I'm guys kept coming up to me." And I'm like, "Well, that's happening all the like, "Well, that's happening all the like, "Well, that's happening all the [clears throat] time." you know, she's [clears throat] time." you know, she's [clears throat] time." you know, she's like, "No, they were all really like, "No, they were all really like, "No, they were all really unattractive." unattractive." unattractive." And I said, "Okay, well, you're good at And I said, "Okay, well, you're good at And I said, "Okay, well, you're good at dealing with you." Like, she was very dealing with you." Like, she was very dealing with you." Like, she was very skilled. She's very beautiful then and skilled. She's very beautiful then and skilled. She's very beautiful then and now, and so very skilled at like saying, now, and so very skilled at like saying, now, and so very skilled at like saying, "Thanks, but no thanks." "Thanks, but no thanks." "Thanks, but no thanks." >> And then she said something that was >> And then she said something that was >> And then she said something that was absolutely like shocking to me that I've absolutely like shocking to me that I've absolutely like shocking to me that I've shared with other female friends and shared with other female friends and shared with other female friends and some men and they always go, "No way." some men and they always go, "No way." some men and they always go, "No way." And she said, "I feel like I have to go And she said, "I feel like I have to go And she said, "I feel like I have to go like flirt with a really attractive guy like flirt with a really attractive guy like flirt with a really attractive guy now." now." now." >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And it was clear that despite being >> And it was clear that despite being >> And it was clear that despite being incredibly attractive, incredibly incredibly attractive, incredibly incredibly attractive, incredibly accomplished accomplished accomplished and s athlete, and s athlete, and s athlete, >> was questioning her own value, this is >> was questioning her own value, this is >> was questioning her own value, this is very evo evolutionary biology, because very evo evolutionary biology, because very evo evolutionary biology, because the guys that were approaching her were the guys that were approaching her were the guys that were approaching her were in her mind very quote unquote low in her mind very quote unquote low in her mind very quote unquote low value, unattractive. Ah, value, unattractive. Ah, value, unattractive. Ah, >> it it like got to her, you know. Of >> it it like got to her, you know. Of >> it it like got to her, you know. Of course, my interpretation was, "Okay, course, my interpretation was, "Okay, course, my interpretation was, "Okay, guys, the next time a really attractive guys, the next time a really attractive guys, the next time a really attractive woman walks up to you and seems like woman walks up to you and seems like woman walks up to you and seems like she's chatting you up, she's chatting you up, she's chatting you up, >> you don't know that it's actually about >> you don't know that it's actually about >> you don't know that it's actually about you, you know, you know, like just know you, you know, you know, like just know you, you know, you know, like just know that it may not be about you." Like, that it may not be about you." Like, that it may not be about you." Like, like note to self. And what's wild is like note to self. And what's wild is like note to self. And what's wild is that years later I observed and talked that years later I observed and talked that years later I observed and talked to someone in a basically same dynamic, to someone in a basically same dynamic, to someone in a basically same dynamic, >> but she's married and she said, "Yeah, >> but she's married and she said, "Yeah, >> but she's married and she said, "Yeah, if a bunch of people hit people always if a bunch of people hit people always if a bunch of people hit people always hit on this this other woman, too." hit on this this other woman, too." hit on this this other woman, too." She's like, "If they do that, She's like, "If they do that, She's like, "If they do that, >> I sort of feel like I have to go kind of >> I sort of feel like I have to go kind of >> I sort of feel like I have to go kind of um get a clear perception again of um get a clear perception again of um get a clear perception again of whether or not I could be with an whether or not I could be with an whether or not I could be with an attractive guy." And now granted, she's attractive guy." And now granted, she's attractive guy." And now granted, she's married to a super successful, what married to a super successful, what married to a super successful, what anyone, male or female, would describe anyone, male or female, would describe anyone, male or female, would describe as super good-look guy, as super good-look guy, as super good-look guy, >> and they have a super stable family. And >> and they have a super stable family. And >> and they have a super stable family. And I thought to myself, I thought to myself, I thought to myself, >> "Oh my god." And I don't know that this >> "Oh my god." And I don't know that this >> "Oh my god." And I don't know that this is unique to women. I don't know. But is unique to women. I don't know. But is unique to women. I don't know. But it's kind of weird if you think about it's kind of weird if you think about it's kind of weird if you think about it. Now, it could be their unique it. Now, it could be their unique it. Now, it could be their unique insecurity, but it's like if data start insecurity, but it's like if data start insecurity, but it's like if data start coming in, coming in, coming in, >> let's flip it. date. If a lot of really >> let's flip it. date. If a lot of really >> let's flip it. date. If a lot of really attractive people of the opposite sex attractive people of the opposite sex attractive people of the opposite sex start talking to you, whoever's start talking to you, whoever's start talking to you, whoever's listening to this listening to this listening to this >> that you perhaps start to wonder if >> that you perhaps start to wonder if >> that you perhaps start to wonder if something something something >> important is going on there. There's >> important is going on there. There's >> important is going on there. There's information there. I just would like you information there. I just would like you information there. I just would like you to reflect on this. I've been perplexed to reflect on this. I've been perplexed to reflect on this. I've been perplexed by it for a long time. In some sense, it by it for a long time. In some sense, it by it for a long time. In some sense, it makes total sense, makes total sense, makes total sense, >> but as a scientist, I've learned, yeah, >> but as a scientist, I've learned, yeah, >> but as a scientist, I've learned, yeah, but but but >> just like like what's really going on >> just like like what's really going on >> just like like what's really going on here? I think the part of the story here? I think the part of the story here? I think the part of the story that's the most headscratching is that that's the most headscratching is that that's the most headscratching is that they're in relationships. So shouldn't they're in relationships. So shouldn't they're in relationships. So shouldn't they they they >> in the second case? >> in the second case? >> in the second case? >> Yeah. In the second case. So shouldn't >> Yeah. In the second case. So shouldn't >> Yeah. In the second case. So shouldn't they be getting the feedback they be getting the feedback they be getting the feedback that's positive on a regular basis? that's positive on a regular basis? that's positive on a regular basis? Anyway, let's for the sake of argument Anyway, let's for the sake of argument Anyway, let's for the sake of argument just assume that she was. So she was just assume that she was. So she was just assume that she was. So she was getting positive feedback at home and getting positive feedback at home and getting positive feedback at home and yet the experience of having less yet the experience of having less yet the experience of having less appealing men come up to her led her to appealing men come up to her led her to appealing men come up to her led her to feel like I need to do something to feel like I need to do something to feel like I need to do something to reaffirm my reaffirm my reaffirm my >> I think it was a question am I losing it >> I think it was a question am I losing it >> I think it was a question am I losing it was the was kind of the language that was the was kind of the language that was the was kind of the language that came up am I losing it whatever it was came up am I losing it whatever it was came up am I losing it whatever it was >> one of the reasons that scientifically I >> one of the reasons that scientifically I >> one of the reasons that scientifically I am out here like questioning the am out here like questioning the am out here like questioning the usefulness of the made value construct usefulness of the made value construct usefulness of the made value construct is because I know that people of quote is because I know that people of quote is because I know that people of quote unquote low value can have absolutely unquote low value can have absolutely unquote low value can have absolutely fantastic relationships and people of fantastic relationships and people of fantastic relationships and people of quote unquote high value can have quote unquote high value can have quote unquote high value can have absolutely terrible relationship. absolutely terrible relationship. absolutely terrible relationship. >> I observed that many many times. Sure. >> I observed that many many times. Sure. >> I observed that many many times. Sure. >> There you go. So that happens all the >> There you go. So that happens all the >> There you go. So that happens all the time. time. time. I think one of the strongest uh most uh I think one of the strongest uh most uh I think one of the strongest uh most uh like resonant things that made value like resonant things that made value like resonant things that made value does for us or the way that we does for us or the way that we does for us or the way that we experience it most acutely is indeed in experience it most acutely is indeed in experience it most acutely is indeed in the attention we get from strangers and the attention we get from strangers and the attention we get from strangers and or the junior high type scenarios that or the junior high type scenarios that or the junior high type scenarios that we talked about. So that we do have a we talked about. So that we do have a we talked about. So that we do have a level of attractiveness and it changes level of attractiveness and it changes level of attractiveness and it changes as we age. There is a consensus out as we age. There is a consensus out as we age. There is a consensus out there about how desirable we are. And there about how desirable we are. And there about how desirable we are. And that consensus is not going to stay that consensus is not going to stay that consensus is not going to stay exactly where it is. It's going to exactly where it is. It's going to exactly where it is. It's going to shift. And you might be in a shift. And you might be in a shift. And you might be in a relationship and be very happy with the relationship and be very happy with the relationship and be very happy with the person who unambiguously person who unambiguously person who unambiguously thinks you're a 10. And yet still thinks you're a 10. And yet still thinks you're a 10. And yet still wonder, what does everybody else think? wonder, what does everybody else think? wonder, what does everybody else think? Like do they think I'm a seven? Do they Like do they think I'm a seven? Do they Like do they think I'm a seven? Do they think I'm a four? What has happened to think I'm a four? What has happened to think I'm a four? What has happened to me? So I totally get that. That me? So I totally get that. That me? So I totally get that. That experience of how am I coming across to experience of how am I coming across to experience of how am I coming across to the world? Is it less than I thought it the world? Is it less than I thought it the world? Is it less than I thought it was? And that the only great information was? And that the only great information was? And that the only great information that you have is how strangers respond that you have is how strangers respond that you have is how strangers respond to you. It's sort of a funny way of to you. It's sort of a funny way of to you. It's sort of a funny way of flipping all of this stuff around flipping all of this stuff around flipping all of this stuff around because again, as a relationships because again, as a relationships because again, as a relationships researcher, my bias is always your researcher, my bias is always your researcher, my bias is always your husband thinks you're a 10. You think husband thinks you're a 10. You think husband thinks you're a 10. You think he's a 10. You won the lottery. Like he's a 10. You won the lottery. Like he's a 10. You won the lottery. Like that's it. You did it. But I that's it. You did it. But I that's it. You did it. But I acknowledge, yeah, there can be cases acknowledge, yeah, there can be cases acknowledge, yeah, there can be cases where we still wonder about what where we still wonder about what where we still wonder about what strangers think of us and it might strangers think of us and it might strangers think of us and it might matter to our sense of selfworth and matter to our sense of selfworth and matter to our sense of selfworth and sense of who we are. So, so I'm not sense of who we are. So, so I'm not sense of who we are. So, so I'm not going to judge it, but it is a going to judge it, but it is a going to judge it, but it is a fascinating flip of the way I typically fascinating flip of the way I typically fascinating flip of the way I typically think about these things. think about these things. think about these things. >> It makes me wonder whether that our um >> It makes me wonder whether that our um >> It makes me wonder whether that our um >> notions of self and this goes back to >> notions of self and this goes back to >> notions of self and this goes back to the what we were talking about before the what we were talking about before the what we were talking about before the Esther Prell thing and the Esther Prell thing and the Esther Prell thing and attractiveness that sort of boomerangs attractiveness that sort of boomerangs attractiveness that sort of boomerangs back into the relationship. something back into the relationship. something back into the relationship. something that's going to be uncomfortable for a that's going to be uncomfortable for a that's going to be uncomfortable for a lot of people to to hear, but at at some lot of people to to hear, but at at some lot of people to to hear, but at at some level all of it makes me wonder whether level all of it makes me wonder whether level all of it makes me wonder whether um there's a healthy um there's a healthy um there's a healthy compartmentalization compartmentalization compartmentalization >> that >> that >> that >> we could adopt as as a society. Which is >> we could adopt as as a society. Which is >> we could adopt as as a society. Which is not to say like anyone can be attracted not to say like anyone can be attracted not to say like anyone can be attracted to anyone and therefore commitment isn't to anyone and therefore commitment isn't to anyone and therefore commitment isn't real. real. real. >> Nor is it saying like okay when you're >> Nor is it saying like okay when you're >> Nor is it saying like okay when you're in a committed relationship it's it's a in a committed relationship it's it's a in a committed relationship it's it's a complete black box. Right. Right. complete black box. Right. Right. complete black box. Right. Right. Because there is this thing called the Because there is this thing called the Because there is this thing called the internet and there's this thing called internet and there's this thing called internet and there's this thing called the human psyche and you study it and the human psyche and you study it and the human psyche and you study it and around these issues. But maybe it's if around these issues. But maybe it's if around these issues. But maybe it's if people understood that those are two people understood that those are two people understood that those are two different things. different things. different things. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Sometimes we refer to it like as the >> Sometimes we refer to it like as the >> Sometimes we refer to it like as the shiny object, shiny object, shiny object, >> but that that's a an aspect of self or >> but that that's a an aspect of self or >> but that that's a an aspect of self or it's an aspect of of wanting that's not it's an aspect of of wanting that's not it's an aspect of of wanting that's not it's not not real. It's real, but that it's not not real. It's real, but that it's not not real. It's real, but that maybe there's a way to compartmentalize maybe there's a way to compartmentalize maybe there's a way to compartmentalize it so that it's has the potential to be it so that it's has the potential to be it so that it's has the potential to be toxic to relationship. Yeah. toxic to relationship. Yeah. toxic to relationship. Yeah. >> But acknowledging that it's real, that >> But acknowledging that it's real, that >> But acknowledging that it's real, that it's part of our wiring it's part of our wiring it's part of our wiring >> might diffuse some of its power. >> might diffuse some of its power. >> might diffuse some of its power. >> Like I said, some of these couples that >> Like I said, some of these couples that >> Like I said, some of these couples that are like, "Oh, yeah." Like, what's the are like, "Oh, yeah." Like, what's the are like, "Oh, yeah." Like, what's the the phrase couples have where they're the phrase couples have where they're the phrase couples have where they're like, "Oh, you get a it's like a hall like, "Oh, you get a it's like a hall like, "Oh, you get a it's like a hall pass." pass." pass." >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Which is never going to happen, right? >> Which is never going to happen, right? >> Which is never going to happen, right? She's like, you know, so and so, you She's like, you know, so and so, you She's like, you know, so and so, you know, my wife gets a hall my I get a know, my wife gets a hall my I get a know, my wife gets a hall my I get a hall pass with cuz basically it's never hall pass with cuz basically it's never hall pass with cuz basically it's never going to happen, right? So, it's not going to happen, right? So, it's not going to happen, right? So, it's not really a hall pass. It's a it's a it's a really a hall pass. It's a it's a it's a really a hall pass. It's a it's a it's a hall pass that uh exists in this hall pass that uh exists in this hall pass that uh exists in this alternate universe where um the other alternate universe where um the other alternate universe where um the other person could actually sleep with person could actually sleep with person could actually sleep with someone. someone. someone. >> Be careful with the hall notion because >> Be careful with the hall notion because >> Be careful with the hall notion because I don't know where that could lead. I'm I don't know where that could lead. I'm I don't know where that could lead. I'm not suggesting not suggesting not suggesting >> not a protocol I suggest. Not a protocol >> not a protocol I suggest. Not a protocol >> not a protocol I suggest. Not a protocol I suggest. I suggest. I suggest. >> But um it's kind of interesting because >> But um it's kind of interesting because >> But um it's kind of interesting because uh the parallel that comes to mind is uh the parallel that comes to mind is uh the parallel that comes to mind is you know if you're in Los Angeles long you know if you're in Los Angeles long you know if you're in Los Angeles long enough you get to know some people who enough you get to know some people who enough you get to know some people who are actors. Yeah. And from time to time, are actors. Yeah. And from time to time, are actors. Yeah. And from time to time, you'll run into somebody, male or you'll run into somebody, male or you'll run into somebody, male or female, who is who was a spectacular female, who is who was a spectacular female, who is who was a spectacular actor, had an amazing run on a comedy actor, had an amazing run on a comedy actor, had an amazing run on a comedy series or movies, and they're no longer series or movies, and they're no longer series or movies, and they're no longer working. And it is a working. And it is a working. And it is a >> biodal distribution. People who are >> biodal distribution. People who are >> biodal distribution. People who are happy and content and focusing on their happy and content and focusing on their happy and content and focusing on their life and can see that was the younger, life and can see that was the younger, life and can see that was the younger, more attractive, more attractive, more attractive, >> working, >> working, >> working, funny, sexy, whatever. And this is men funny, sexy, whatever. And this is men funny, sexy, whatever. And this is men and women versus the like tortured and women versus the like tortured and women versus the like tortured I'm not getting work, the work is not as I'm not getting work, the work is not as I'm not getting work, the work is not as good as it used to be. I mean there it's good as it used to be. I mean there it's good as it used to be. I mean there it's like and I've seen this with people who like and I've seen this with people who like and I've seen this with people who had uh fame young for other reasons in had uh fame young for other reasons in had uh fame young for other reasons in sports and things like that and they are sports and things like that and they are sports and things like that and they are crushed. crushed. crushed. >> And so what you want to say is like just >> And so what you want to say is like just >> And so what you want to say is like just realize that you have this awesome realize that you have this awesome realize that you have this awesome aspect of self that doesn't live in you aspect of self that doesn't live in you aspect of self that doesn't live in you right now anymore, but it's still you. right now anymore, but it's still you. right now anymore, but it's still you. Like you got that. Like you got that. Like you got that. >> Yeah. You know, I think there's a >> Yeah. You know, I think there's a >> Yeah. You know, I think there's a similarity here. Like if people just be similarity here. Like if people just be similarity here. Like if people just be like, I've got everything I need and I'm like, I've got everything I need and I'm like, I've got everything I need and I'm good because yeah, that other stuff good because yeah, that other stuff good because yeah, that other stuff exists and I feel good about it. Not exists and I feel good about it. Not exists and I feel good about it. Not like I'm gonna pretend it doesn't exist. like I'm gonna pretend it doesn't exist. like I'm gonna pretend it doesn't exist. Seems like they could be a very Seems like they could be a very Seems like they could be a very functional way to move through life for functional way to move through life for functional way to move through life for people who have this insecurity. I people who have this insecurity. I people who have this insecurity. I totally agree. And in fact, I'll even go totally agree. And in fact, I'll even go totally agree. And in fact, I'll even go a step further, which is to say, I try. a step further, which is to say, I try. a step further, which is to say, I try. I don't always succeed, but I try to I don't always succeed, but I try to I don't always succeed, but I try to think this way about relationships that think this way about relationships that think this way about relationships that have come and gone, too. Because I think have come and gone, too. Because I think have come and gone, too. Because I think there's a real tendency I mean I was there's a real tendency I mean I was there's a real tendency I mean I was going to say in our culture but it might going to say in our culture but it might going to say in our culture but it might be a lot of cultures to see like past be a lot of cultures to see like past be a lot of cultures to see like past relationships that have ended and I'll relationships that have ended and I'll relationships that have ended and I'll even put divorces in this category to even put divorces in this category to even put divorces in this category to look back and say I failed. And I think look back and say I failed. And I think look back and say I failed. And I think people reinforce this even people reinforce this even people reinforce this even unintentionally. You know you you go unintentionally. You know you you go unintentionally. You know you you go through a breakup a dating breakup and through a breakup a dating breakup and through a breakup a dating breakup and people say I'm so sorry. I know what people say I'm so sorry. I know what people say I'm so sorry. I know what that's like. come over and have some ice that's like. come over and have some ice that's like. come over and have some ice cream. You go through a divorce and cream. You go through a divorce and cream. You go through a divorce and people say, "Well, what happened?" people say, "Well, what happened?" people say, "Well, what happened?" Because they're trying to make sure that Because they're trying to make sure that Because they're trying to make sure that it doesn't happen to them because it doesn't happen to them because it doesn't happen to them because they're interpreting it as a failure. they're interpreting it as a failure. they're interpreting it as a failure. And boy, I think if we give each other a And boy, I think if we give each other a And boy, I think if we give each other a little bit of grace and see it all as, little bit of grace and see it all as, little bit of grace and see it all as, yeah, that was a thing that happened. It yeah, that was a thing that happened. It yeah, that was a thing that happened. It was real. It mattered in that moment. was real. It mattered in that moment. was real. It mattered in that moment. Things happened along the way. It it it Things happened along the way. It it it Things happened along the way. It it it didn't work out. I changed. You changed. didn't work out. I changed. You changed. didn't work out. I changed. You changed. like being able to accept that like all like being able to accept that like all like being able to accept that like all of those things are real and have or had of those things are real and have or had of those things are real and have or had value. You know, I'd love to try to value. You know, I'd love to try to value. You know, I'd love to try to encourage people to do that. I know like encourage people to do that. I know like encourage people to do that. I know like there's so many people out there right there's so many people out there right there's so many people out there right now who are like, "Yeah, but my ex is a now who are like, "Yeah, but my ex is a now who are like, "Yeah, but my ex is a dick." And I I'm with you. I totally get dick." And I I'm with you. I totally get dick." And I I'm with you. I totally get that. And to the extent that there's any that. And to the extent that there's any that. And to the extent that there's any ability to hold these two thoughts in ability to hold these two thoughts in ability to hold these two thoughts in mind simultaneously, I think it's good. mind simultaneously, I think it's good. mind simultaneously, I think it's good. >> My girlfriend and I have a rule. We >> My girlfriend and I have a rule. We >> My girlfriend and I have a rule. We don't have many rules. One of the rules don't have many rules. One of the rules don't have many rules. One of the rules is we don't talk negatively about anyone is we don't talk negatively about anyone is we don't talk negatively about anyone else that we've ever been with. else that we've ever been with. else that we've ever been with. >> We we >> We we >> We we were very comfortable with the fact that were very comfortable with the fact that were very comfortable with the fact that we've had previous relationships because we've had previous relationships because we've had previous relationships because early on we realize that like in the end early on we realize that like in the end early on we realize that like in the end like that's all about our choices. So like that's all about our choices. So like that's all about our choices. So it's kind of a crazy argument. Um and uh it's kind of a crazy argument. Um and uh it's kind of a crazy argument. Um and uh and she said something beautiful. She and she said something beautiful. She and she said something beautiful. She said like I'm grateful to all the good said like I'm grateful to all the good said like I'm grateful to all the good and bad things that you've had to and bad things that you've had to and bad things that you've had to experience regardless of you know and I experience regardless of you know and I experience regardless of you know and I said the same to her because the said the same to her because the said the same to her because the relationship is great and we bring that relationship is great and we bring that relationship is great and we bring that >> and I do think it was built on the >> and I do think it was built on the >> and I do think it was built on the trials and tribulations and great things trials and tribulations and great things trials and tribulations and great things you know now I'm careful to not ask too you know now I'm careful to not ask too you know now I'm careful to not ask too many questions and she's careful to ask many questions and she's careful to ask many questions and she's careful to ask not ask too many we we actually have um not ask too many we we actually have um not ask too many we we actually have um uh selective uh ignorance around around uh selective uh ignorance around around uh selective uh ignorance around around certain we just like I don't care like I certain we just like I don't care like I certain we just like I don't care like I genuinely don't genuinely don't genuinely don't >> go down certain lines of inquiry and she >> go down certain lines of inquiry and she >> go down certain lines of inquiry and she doesn't either. And I think it's great. doesn't either. And I think it's great. doesn't either. And I think it's great. >> I think it's great. I think it's uh it >> I think it's great. I think it's uh it >> I think it's great. I think it's uh it sets up like a you're the we're here sets up like a you're the we're here sets up like a you're the we're here now. This is time move from now forward now. This is time move from now forward now. This is time move from now forward and where it goes we determine that. But and where it goes we determine that. But and where it goes we determine that. But but histories are real but histories are real but histories are real >> and I have always admired I have a few >> and I have always admired I have a few >> and I have always admired I have a few friends that um paired up friends that um paired up friends that um paired up >> very early and they went through all >> very early and they went through all >> very early and they went through all these developmental milestones together, these developmental milestones together, these developmental milestones together, first jobs, some even graduate college first jobs, some even graduate college first jobs, some even graduate college as couples, kids, you know, all this as couples, kids, you know, all this as couples, kids, you know, all this stuff. And there's something really stuff. And there's something really stuff. And there's something really beautiful about people that you you have beautiful about people that you you have beautiful about people that you you have a long developmental trajectory to big a long developmental trajectory to big a long developmental trajectory to big milestones that they reach together. milestones that they reach together. milestones that they reach together. Nowadays, people are pairing up later. Nowadays, people are pairing up later. Nowadays, people are pairing up later. They're getting divorced and remarrying. They're getting divorced and remarrying. They're getting divorced and remarrying. It's harder to build a common narrative, It's harder to build a common narrative, It's harder to build a common narrative, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Is there any data about common narrative >> Is there any data about common narrative >> Is there any data about common narrative good or bad like we went through a lot good or bad like we went through a lot good or bad like we went through a lot can be building as well. Is time can be building as well. Is time can be building as well. Is time together a factor? Like when you control together a factor? Like when you control together a factor? Like when you control for everything else, is duration of for everything else, is duration of for everything else, is duration of relationship relationship relationship an indicator of sort of quality and an indicator of sort of quality and an indicator of sort of quality and satisfaction of relationship? satisfaction of relationship? satisfaction of relationship? >> So if we're looking strictly at >> So if we're looking strictly at >> So if we're looking strictly at relationship duration, relationship duration, relationship duration, honestly, on average, it tends to be a honestly, on average, it tends to be a honestly, on average, it tends to be a bad sign. In other words, wait a second. bad sign. In other words, wait a second. bad sign. In other words, wait a second. Staying together is bad. Staying together is bad. Staying together is bad. >> Yeah. No, no, it just means that like >> Yeah. No, no, it just means that like >> Yeah. No, no, it just means that like that over time people were the happiest that over time people were the happiest that over time people were the happiest early on in their relationship than they early on in their relationship than they early on in their relationship than they are today. Right. It actually kind of a are today. Right. It actually kind of a are today. Right. It actually kind of a bummer. Um bummer. Um bummer. Um >> can you just break up and get back >> can you just break up and get back >> can you just break up and get back together a bunch? together a bunch? together a bunch? >> Yeah. Right. Okay. >> Yeah. Right. Okay. >> Yeah. Right. Okay. >> We don't study that. We should um that >> We don't study that. We should um that >> We don't study that. We should um that might have some problems volunteering. might have some problems volunteering. might have some problems volunteering. >> Yeah. But let me say this. the the >> Yeah. But let me say this. the the >> Yeah. But let me say this. the the narrative, narrative, narrative, right? The idea that we experienced a right? The idea that we experienced a right? The idea that we experienced a lot, that we grew, that we faced all lot, that we grew, that we faced all lot, that we grew, that we faced all these obstacles, that is huge. So, it's these obstacles, that is huge. So, it's these obstacles, that is huge. So, it's so so literal time is not the best so so literal time is not the best so so literal time is not the best metric to capture, I think, the essence metric to capture, I think, the essence metric to capture, I think, the essence of what you're getting at. It's a sense of what you're getting at. It's a sense of what you're getting at. It's a sense that like we were in this together and that like we were in this together and that like we were in this together and that we had a shared story. This is also that we had a shared story. This is also that we had a shared story. This is also why breakups are so hard because not why breakups are so hard because not why breakups are so hard because not only are you often losing a source of only are you often losing a source of only are you often losing a source of support, perhaps for men it might be support, perhaps for men it might be support, perhaps for men it might be more likely to be their only source of more likely to be their only source of more likely to be their only source of support. Not only um do you have to face support. Not only um do you have to face support. Not only um do you have to face the possibility of getting back out the possibility of getting back out the possibility of getting back out there, but you're also losing the there, but you're also losing the there, but you're also losing the continuity with yourself. you're losing continuity with yourself. you're losing continuity with yourself. you're losing the stories and the narratives that the stories and the narratives that the stories and the narratives that you've built with this other person and you've built with this other person and you've built with this other person and all of those memories and all of those all of those memories and all of those all of those memories and all of those components. components. components. >> Well, I think that's why it can feel >> Well, I think that's why it can feel >> Well, I think that's why it can feel like a failure because there's this like a failure because there's this like a failure because there's this understandable and I think very understandable and I think very understandable and I think very desirable wish that the desirable wish that the desirable wish that the >> it's like a novel. It's going to have a >> it's like a novel. It's going to have a >> it's like a novel. It's going to have a beginning, a middle, and an end beginning, a middle, and an end beginning, a middle, and an end >> and the end is death. >> and the end is death. >> and the end is death. >> Like we're going to till death do us >> Like we're going to till death do us >> Like we're going to till death do us part. That is written into the script, part. That is written into the script, part. That is written into the script, right? And so I think if it ends early, right? And so I think if it ends early, right? And so I think if it ends early, I think a lot of people don't know how I think a lot of people don't know how I think a lot of people don't know how to integrate it into their life story. to integrate it into their life story. to integrate it into their life story. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The evolutionary biology part, which >> The evolutionary biology part, which >> The evolutionary biology part, which seems very real to me, seems very real to me, seems very real to me, >> is that all we have is time and energy. >> is that all we have is time and energy. >> is that all we have is time and energy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And when we invest, >> And when we invest, >> And when we invest, >> time is running. There's no doover, >> time is running. There's no doover, >> time is running. There's no doover, right? right? right? >> You know, there's [laughter] no doover. >> You know, there's [laughter] no doover. >> You know, there's [laughter] no doover. So I think that people carry a lot of So I think that people carry a lot of So I think that people carry a lot of resent about the time lost. resent about the time lost. resent about the time lost. >> Yeah. and and the energy and the >> Yeah. and and the energy and the >> Yeah. and and the energy and the investments that you put into it. But investments that you put into it. But investments that you put into it. But and I think I think it's useful to think and I think I think it's useful to think and I think I think it's useful to think about those investments as being about about those investments as being about about those investments as being about like self and story like self and story like self and story and that to the extent that you can use and that to the extent that you can use and that to the extent that you can use it as an opportunity to like whether it as an opportunity to like whether it as an opportunity to like whether it's like reinvent or recreate or you it's like reinvent or recreate or you it's like reinvent or recreate or you know you preserve some of the parts of know you preserve some of the parts of know you preserve some of the parts of yourself from the prior relationship but yourself from the prior relationship but yourself from the prior relationship but maybe not all the prior parts of maybe not all the prior parts of maybe not all the prior parts of yourself. there are some things that yourself. there are some things that yourself. there are some things that you'd rather let go. To the extent that you'd rather let go. To the extent that you'd rather let go. To the extent that you can hold on to the good parts of the you can hold on to the good parts of the you can hold on to the good parts of the story, the parts that you want to story, the parts that you want to story, the parts that you want to remember, that you want to keep, it' be remember, that you want to keep, it' be remember, that you want to keep, it' be so painful when you're going through the so painful when you're going through the so painful when you're going through the breakup in the first place that I think breakup in the first place that I think breakup in the first place that I think a lot of times people just want to like a lot of times people just want to like a lot of times people just want to like take all of it, put it in a box, and get take all of it, put it in a box, and get take all of it, put it in a box, and get rid of it. Definitely throw away the rid of it. Definitely throw away the rid of it. Definitely throw away the photos at some point. photos at some point. photos at some point. >> Yeah. Yeah. Although, although now >> Yeah. Yeah. Although, although now >> Yeah. Yeah. Although, although now everything's, you know, in the cloud, everything's, you know, in the cloud, everything's, you know, in the cloud, it's very, very challenging. it's very, very challenging. it's very, very challenging. Hypothalamus versus forebrain. Does the Hypothalamus versus forebrain. Does the Hypothalamus versus forebrain. Does the good primitive stuff, good primitive stuff, good primitive stuff, >> meaning, >> meaning, >> meaning, >> yep, >> yep, >> yep, >> sexual attractiveness, outweigh the >> sexual attractiveness, outweigh the >> sexual attractiveness, outweigh the ability to think about how great someone ability to think about how great someone ability to think about how great someone is? Ideally, there's both. is? Ideally, there's both. is? Ideally, there's both. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But the good lover beats stated >> But the good lover beats stated >> But the good lover beats stated preferences model. preferences model. preferences model. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is something that, >> Is something that, >> Is something that, >> okay, >> okay, >> okay, >> you've talked about before. In other >> you've talked about before. In other >> you've talked about before. In other words, is the real glue in a long-term words, is the real glue in a long-term words, is the real glue in a long-term relationship relationship relationship some form of physical intimacy that in some form of physical intimacy that in some form of physical intimacy that in or put differently, can we think and or put differently, can we think and or put differently, can we think and talk our way perhaps to ourselves? talk our way perhaps to ourselves? talk our way perhaps to ourselves? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Forward through a relationship that >> Forward through a relationship that >> Forward through a relationship that doesn't have that physical intimacy. doesn't have that physical intimacy. doesn't have that physical intimacy. Usually, you will see that things like Usually, you will see that things like Usually, you will see that things like sexual satisfaction or sexual desire for sexual satisfaction or sexual desire for sexual satisfaction or sexual desire for your partner are going to be pretty your partner are going to be pretty your partner are going to be pretty tightly related to how you feel about tightly related to how you feel about tightly related to how you feel about the relationship in general. It's an the relationship in general. It's an the relationship in general. It's an important component. I wouldn't say it's important component. I wouldn't say it's important component. I wouldn't say it's an essential component or even the an essential component or even the an essential component or even the central component for many people, but central component for many people, but central component for many people, but for other people it certainly can be. for other people it certainly can be. for other people it certainly can be. And I again I do believe in the church And I again I do believe in the church And I again I do believe in the church of Esther Pel which is that there are of Esther Pel which is that there are of Esther Pel which is that there are ways of recultivating ways of recultivating ways of recultivating sexual feelings about somebody that sexual feelings about somebody that sexual feelings about somebody that actually our sexual feelings about actually our sexual feelings about actually our sexual feelings about somebody. It's not like a switch where somebody. It's not like a switch where somebody. It's not like a switch where it's just on or it's off and we know it's just on or it's off and we know it's just on or it's off and we know just when we look at them that sometimes just when we look at them that sometimes just when we look at them that sometimes it's about the things we're talking it's about the things we're talking it's about the things we're talking about the time we spend together or the about the time we spend together or the about the time we spend together or the time that we spend apart and that that time that we spend apart and that that time that we spend apart and that that can be rekindling in various ways. So I can be rekindling in various ways. So I can be rekindling in various ways. So I think the key thing for me is not to think the key thing for me is not to think the key thing for me is not to engage in fatalism about the sexual engage in fatalism about the sexual engage in fatalism about the sexual desire component. That when like the desire component. That when like the desire component. That when like the when the passion fades in a when the passion fades in a when the passion fades in a relationship, relationship, relationship, that doesn't mean that it's gone that doesn't mean that it's gone that doesn't mean that it's gone forever. It might not be something that forever. It might not be something that forever. It might not be something that you feel like every day at 7:00 p.m. you feel like every day at 7:00 p.m. you feel like every day at 7:00 p.m. anymore. It might be the kind of thing anymore. It might be the kind of thing anymore. It might be the kind of thing that that comes to the four in certain that that comes to the four in certain that that comes to the four in certain circumstances or when you're not totally circumstances or when you're not totally circumstances or when you're not totally exhausted. exhausted. exhausted. I think that's okay. And a lot of I think that's okay. And a lot of I think that's okay. And a lot of relationships can absolutely thrive relationships can absolutely thrive relationships can absolutely thrive under those circumstances. And you can under those circumstances. And you can under those circumstances. And you can push it to extremes, too, where it's push it to extremes, too, where it's push it to extremes, too, where it's like, "My partner hasn't been sexually like, "My partner hasn't been sexually like, "My partner hasn't been sexually attracted to me in, you know, years and attracted to me in, you know, years and attracted to me in, you know, years and years." Like, that's going to be tough. years." Like, that's going to be tough. years." Like, that's going to be tough. And part of the reason that's tough is And part of the reason that's tough is And part of the reason that's tough is because you don't have the sexual because you don't have the sexual because you don't have the sexual intimacy. But also part of the reason intimacy. But also part of the reason intimacy. But also part of the reason it's tough is cuz it's making me feel it's tough is cuz it's making me feel it's tough is cuz it's making me feel terrible about myself. So these things terrible about myself. So these things terrible about myself. So these things all like cascade in various negative all like cascade in various negative all like cascade in various negative ways, but I think they can also be be ways, but I think they can also be be ways, but I think they can also be be helped in ways too that you know that helped in ways too that you know that helped in ways too that you know that engage some of these more, you know, the engage some of these more, you know, the engage some of these more, you know, the parts of our brains that at least we're parts of our brains that at least we're parts of our brains that at least we're more uh aware of and and have some more uh aware of and and have some more uh aware of and and have some agency over. agency over. agency over. >> So is it true that sexual attractiveness >> So is it true that sexual attractiveness >> So is it true that sexual attractiveness that rating the person's uh a person that rating the person's uh a person that rating the person's uh a person rating their partner as a quote unquote rating their partner as a quote unquote rating their partner as a quote unquote good lover is good lover is good lover is among the strongest predictors of how among the strongest predictors of how among the strongest predictors of how positively they feel about their partner positively they feel about their partner positively they feel about their partner because that's that I I really because that's that I I really because that's that I I really appreciate your answer, but I I want to appreciate your answer, but I I want to appreciate your answer, but I I want to make sure that if that's true, that make sure that if that's true, that make sure that if that's true, that comes comes through because what I'm comes comes through because what I'm comes comes through because what I'm hearing is yes, it can those feelings hearing is yes, it can those feelings hearing is yes, it can those feelings can uh wax and wayne and yes, life can uh wax and wayne and yes, life can uh wax and wayne and yes, life circumstances and raising kids and job circumstances and raising kids and job circumstances and raising kids and job and stress. Yes. Yes. And yes, I think and stress. Yes. Yes. And yes, I think and stress. Yes. Yes. And yes, I think uh everyone including me acknowledges uh everyone including me acknowledges uh everyone including me acknowledges that. But this idea that it's not that. But this idea that it's not that. But this idea that it's not important after a certain stage or that important after a certain stage or that important after a certain stage or that a really healthy romantic relationship a really healthy romantic relationship a really healthy romantic relationship can exist without that. What I'm hearing can exist without that. What I'm hearing can exist without that. What I'm hearing is the data is the data is the data >> point in the other direction. >> point in the other direction. >> point in the other direction. >> No, that is absolutely correct. the the >> No, that is absolutely correct. the the >> No, that is absolutely correct. the the subjective sense that and that's exactly subjective sense that and that's exactly subjective sense that and that's exactly the wording that we use the subjective the wording that we use the subjective the wording that we use the subjective sense that like this person that I am sense that like this person that I am sense that like this person that I am with or or this person that in that with or or this person that in that with or or this person that in that study we have people who are in study we have people who are in study we have people who are in relationships but we also have people relationships but we also have people relationships but we also have people who are reporting on like just folks who are reporting on like just folks who are reporting on like just folks that they're initially attracted to. But that they're initially attracted to. But that they're initially attracted to. But in both it actually doesn't really in both it actually doesn't really in both it actually doesn't really matter. In both cases, feeling like this matter. In both cases, feeling like this matter. In both cases, feeling like this person is a good lover or likely to be a person is a good lover or likely to be a person is a good lover or likely to be a good lover in the case of the attraction good lover in the case of the attraction good lover in the case of the attraction scenarios is a very very good sign for scenarios is a very very good sign for scenarios is a very very good sign for how [clears throat] positively you feel how [clears throat] positively you feel how [clears throat] positively you feel about the relationship in general and about the relationship in general and about the relationship in general and whether you want the relationship to whether you want the relationship to whether you want the relationship to continue it. But again, it's that it's continue it. But again, it's that it's continue it. But again, it's that it's that subjective sense and that's that's that subjective sense and that's that's that subjective sense and that's that's kind of where I'm getting to this kind of where I'm getting to this kind of where I'm getting to this component of like if if I start to feel component of like if if I start to feel component of like if if I start to feel like you're not a great lover, like like you're not a great lover, like like you're not a great lover, like that's going to rebound. So that then that's going to rebound. So that then that's going to rebound. So that then you don't feel desirable and it's going you don't feel desirable and it's going you don't feel desirable and it's going to sort of cascade in all of these to sort of cascade in all of these to sort of cascade in all of these negative ways. negative ways. negative ways. >> All seems to converge on it's an >> All seems to converge on it's an >> All seems to converge on it's an important feature of romantic important feature of romantic important feature of romantic relationships to cultivate protect from relationships to cultivate protect from relationships to cultivate protect from you know Yeah. And you describe some to you know Yeah. And you describe some to you know Yeah. And you describe some to me surprising um me surprising um me surprising um >> you know I I I think for some reason it >> you know I I I think for some reason it >> you know I I I think for some reason it it makes total sense and yet it's it makes total sense and yet it's it makes total sense and yet it's surprising that this kind of energy from surprising that this kind of energy from surprising that this kind of energy from the outside can the outside can the outside can >> provide positive support to the >> provide positive support to the >> provide positive support to the relationship. Um, but [clears throat] relationship. Um, but [clears throat] relationship. Um, but [clears throat] Esther said it, excuse me, has said it Esther said it, excuse me, has said it Esther said it, excuse me, has said it and others have said it. So, and others have said it. So, and others have said it. So, >> very interesting. Final question. Sounds >> very interesting. Final question. Sounds >> very interesting. Final question. Sounds like a game show. Final question. like a game show. Final question. like a game show. Final question. [laughter] Um, [laughter] Um, [laughter] Um, >> billion dollar question. >> billion dollar question. >> billion dollar question. >> Your course on this topic and related >> Your course on this topic and related >> Your course on this topic and related topics is incredibly popular for obvious topics is incredibly popular for obvious topics is incredibly popular for obvious reasons. It's super interesting topic. I reasons. It's super interesting topic. I reasons. It's super interesting topic. I mean at at the end of the day like our mean at at the end of the day like our mean at at the end of the day like our species evolved through these dynamics species evolved through these dynamics species evolved through these dynamics you know it it wasn't all like you know you know it it wasn't all like you know you know it it wasn't all like you know club the the lion you know gather food club the the lion you know gather food club the the lion you know gather food make it was there was a lot of dynamics make it was there was a lot of dynamics make it was there was a lot of dynamics I always chuckle when people say like I always chuckle when people say like I always chuckle when people say like you know stress is a holdover from when you know stress is a holdover from when you know stress is a holdover from when we were being hunted by saber-tooth type we were being hunted by saber-tooth type we were being hunted by saber-tooth type no that's complete like nonsense it was no that's complete like nonsense it was no that's complete like nonsense it was also there for when your spouse went also there for when your spouse went also there for when your spouse went hunting for the day or gathering and you hunting for the day or gathering and you hunting for the day or gathering and you didn't know if they were going to come didn't know if they were going to come didn't know if they were going to come back or they came back after sundown back or they came back after sundown back or they came back after sundown when normally They're there at sundown when normally They're there at sundown when normally They're there at sundown and it's for when your baby was sick. and it's for when your baby was sick. and it's for when your baby was sick. Like this notion that like stress was Like this notion that like stress was Like this notion that like stress was only about pation. Like so it's just so only about pation. Like so it's just so only about pation. Like so it's just so stupid. I'd like to uh have words with stupid. I'd like to uh have words with stupid. I'd like to uh have words with whoever came up with that. It's so dumb. whoever came up with that. It's so dumb. whoever came up with that. It's so dumb. It makes no it's not true. It makes no it's not true. It makes no it's not true. >> What are the questions that students are >> What are the questions that students are >> What are the questions that students are asking most often nowadays? Because I asking most often nowadays? Because I asking most often nowadays? Because I realize that as a, you know, 50-year-old realize that as a, you know, 50-year-old realize that as a, you know, 50-year-old male, uh, I suffer from a number of male, uh, I suffer from a number of male, uh, I suffer from a number of different delusions about relationships different delusions about relationships different delusions about relationships as it is for people in their 20s. as it is for people in their 20s. as it is for people in their 20s. uh 30s now. Um and maybe for everybody uh 30s now. Um and maybe for everybody uh 30s now. Um and maybe for everybody because we're all in our own experience. because we're all in our own experience. because we're all in our own experience. But I think even though the college But I think even though the college But I think even though the college classroom is not a perfect sample by any classroom is not a perfect sample by any classroom is not a perfect sample by any stretch presumably there a lot of stretch presumably there a lot of stretch presumably there a lot of different people in there. different people in there. different people in there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Men, women, right? Some are most are >> Men, women, right? Some are most are >> Men, women, right? Some are most are probably straight, some are gay on probably straight, some are gay on probably straight, some are gay on average 2%. Like you're going to get a average 2%. Like you're going to get a average 2%. Like you're going to get a lot of questions. What are the big lot of questions. What are the big lot of questions. What are the big questions that that people seem to want questions that that people seem to want questions that that people seem to want answered that answered that answered that you're just hearing over and over again you're just hearing over and over again you're just hearing over and over again that are both in the direction of like that are both in the direction of like that are both in the direction of like this is a challenge but also like what's this is a challenge but also like what's this is a challenge but also like what's going right out there? Is anything going going right out there? Is anything going going right out there? Is anything going right? right? right? >> I think most of the questions are about >> I think most of the questions are about >> I think most of the questions are about like like there is often an assumption like like there is often an assumption like like there is often an assumption that like that like that like >> yeah but these days >> yeah but these days >> yeah but these days it's so screwed up like that's what it's so screwed up like that's what it's so screwed up like that's what they're saying. they're saying. they're saying. >> Yeah. like the I mean you just have this >> Yeah. like the I mean you just have this >> Yeah. like the I mean you just have this undercurrent. It's almost like and I undercurrent. It's almost like and I undercurrent. It's almost like and I worry about this sometimes that when I worry about this sometimes that when I worry about this sometimes that when I teach the science on these topics teach the science on these topics teach the science on these topics there's a general sense of okay but that there's a general sense of okay but that there's a general sense of okay but that this is science from the before times this is science from the before times this is science from the before times like what like today like what like today like what like today when the the apps have have controlled when the the apps have have controlled when the the apps have have controlled everything and like nobody goes out everything and like nobody goes out everything and like nobody goes out anymore like what are we supposed to do anymore like what are we supposed to do anymore like what are we supposed to do and sometimes I fall back on the well and sometimes I fall back on the well and sometimes I fall back on the well look like these these groups and things look like these these groups and things look like these these groups and things like we were talking about these clubs. like we were talking about these clubs. like we were talking about these clubs. They're still out there. You can still They're still out there. You can still They're still out there. You can still get out there and meet people. get out there and meet people. get out there and meet people. >> Activities. >> Activities. >> Activities. >> Yeah. Activities like through these >> Yeah. Activities like through these >> Yeah. Activities like through these avenues. They tend to work pretty well. avenues. They tend to work pretty well. avenues. They tend to work pretty well. And at the same time, I have to And at the same time, I have to And at the same time, I have to acknowledge that the generations are acknowledge that the generations are acknowledge that the generations are going to change and these folks going to change and these folks going to change and these folks experiences will be different than the experiences will be different than the experiences will be different than the experiences that my generation had. So I experiences that my generation had. So I experiences that my generation had. So I think in many ways this ends up being think in many ways this ends up being think in many ways this ends up being the challenge to like to convey the the challenge to like to convey the the challenge to like to convey the science to folks but also do it in a way science to folks but also do it in a way science to folks but also do it in a way that shows that you're being responsive that shows that you're being responsive that shows that you're being responsive and aware of the fact that any and aware of the fact that any and aware of the fact that any generation feels like but things have generation feels like but things have generation feels like but things have changed now and sometimes it takes a changed now and sometimes it takes a changed now and sometimes it takes a while to know like what has really while to know like what has really while to know like what has really changed. I do think that these students changed. I do think that these students changed. I do think that these students go out less often. I think they drink go out less often. I think they drink go out less often. I think they drink less often. I think they are they aren't less often. I think they are they aren't less often. I think they are they aren't spending time socializing in the same spending time socializing in the same spending time socializing in the same way and they're interfacing more with way and they're interfacing more with way and they're interfacing more with technology that's probably helping some technology that's probably helping some technology that's probably helping some people and it's probably really making people and it's probably really making people and it's probably really making it hard for some other people and so um it hard for some other people and so um it hard for some other people and so um you know I try to like live the example you know I try to like live the example you know I try to like live the example of hey like I spent time hanging out of hey like I spent time hanging out of hey like I spent time hanging out with people in groups and it was hard with people in groups and it was hard with people in groups and it was hard and I got rejected and you know my high and I got rejected and you know my high and I got rejected and you know my high school girlfriend dumped me but I ended school girlfriend dumped me but I ended school girlfriend dumped me but I ended up doing okay and um I hope that other up doing okay and um I hope that other up doing okay and um I hope that other people can like resonate with that people can like resonate with that people can like resonate with that message in my glasses. message in my glasses. message in my glasses. >> Love it. And I'm also hearing um perhaps >> Love it. And I'm also hearing um perhaps >> Love it. And I'm also hearing um perhaps don't just sign up for something, but be don't just sign up for something, but be don't just sign up for something, but be the person who organizes it. the person who organizes it. the person who organizes it. >> Yeah. Yeah. I love this. I love this. >> Yeah. Yeah. I love this. I love this. >> Yeah. Yeah. I love this. I love this. >> Like you can throw a picnic or a party >> Like you can throw a picnic or a party >> Like you can throw a picnic or a party and uh and uh and uh >> when I was a graduate student at Davis, >> when I was a graduate student at Davis, >> when I was a graduate student at Davis, uh I often didn't make it cuz I was in uh I often didn't make it cuz I was in uh I often didn't make it cuz I was in lab, but um every Friday there was a lab, but um every Friday there was a lab, but um every Friday there was a pickup beach volleyball game. pickup beach volleyball game. pickup beach volleyball game. >> Oh, that's fantastic. And then people >> Oh, that's fantastic. And then people >> Oh, that's fantastic. And then people would go to uh there was a Thai would go to uh there was a Thai would go to uh there was a Thai restaurant that was that was also a bar. restaurant that was that was also a bar. restaurant that was that was also a bar. >> That night sometimes ended the next >> That night sometimes ended the next >> That night sometimes ended the next morning. There was a tattoo shop right morning. There was a tattoo shop right morning. There was a tattoo shop right across the street that closed called across the street that closed called across the street that closed called American Graffiti. American Graffiti. American Graffiti. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. That some people got tattoos. >> Yeah. That some people got tattoos. >> Yeah. That some people got tattoos. Do not recommend and definitely don't Do not recommend and definitely don't Do not recommend and definitely don't get tattooed drunk. Probably don't even get tattooed drunk. Probably don't even get tattooed drunk. Probably don't even get Do what you want. But um [laughter] get Do what you want. But um [laughter] get Do what you want. But um [laughter] but but it was every Friday and there but but it was every Friday and there but but it was every Friday and there was only one rule which is that you had was only one rule which is that you had was only one rule which is that you had to at least attempt to do the kind of to at least attempt to do the kind of to at least attempt to do the kind of like bump set approach to beach like bump set approach to beach like bump set approach to beach volleyball. You couldn't just hit it volleyball. You couldn't just hit it volleyball. You couldn't just hit it across [laughter] across [laughter] across [laughter] >> and it didn't matter how bad you were, >> and it didn't matter how bad you were, >> and it didn't matter how bad you were, you know, you know, you know, >> you had to do the three >> you had to do the three >> you had to do the three >> and then everyone would go Thai food. >> and then everyone would go Thai food. >> and then everyone would go Thai food. >> Some people would have >> Some people would have >> Some people would have >> drinks if they drank. Somebody would >> drinks if they drank. Somebody would >> drinks if they drank. Somebody would have a lot of drinks they definitely have a lot of drinks they definitely have a lot of drinks they definitely drank. drank. drank. >> It's just a really cool thing. Anyone >> It's just a really cool thing. Anyone >> It's just a really cool thing. Anyone could come. could come. could come. >> Yeah. Things like that happened a lot >> Yeah. Things like that happened a lot >> Yeah. Things like that happened a lot and it took like zero planning. It was and it took like zero planning. It was and it took like zero planning. It was an email that basically just went out an email that basically just went out an email that basically just went out and no one person was in charge. It was and no one person was in charge. It was and no one person was in charge. It was just kind of in the collective. Yeah. just kind of in the collective. Yeah. just kind of in the collective. Yeah. >> They did uh like cooking competition >> They did uh like cooking competition >> They did uh like cooking competition things where things where things where >> you'd meet at someone's house and >> you'd meet at someone's house and >> you'd meet at someone's house and everyone would have to bring like a everyone would have to bring like a everyone would have to bring like a particular dish and then everyone would particular dish and then everyone would particular dish and then everyone would try them. And I had no time in graduate try them. And I had no time in graduate try them. And I had no time in graduate school. I was working all the time. I school. I was working all the time. I school. I was working all the time. I would make time for these things would make time for these things would make time for these things occasionally and they were a lot of fun. occasionally and they were a lot of fun. occasionally and they were a lot of fun. Like these things are super easy to do. Like these things are super easy to do. Like these things are super easy to do. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, >> you don't have to have any real athletic >> you don't have to have any real athletic >> you don't have to have any real athletic ability or cooking ability, trust me. ability or cooking ability, trust me. ability or cooking ability, trust me. Um, it I just feel like there's so much Um, it I just feel like there's so much Um, it I just feel like there's so much opportunity for that, but the barrier opportunity for that, but the barrier opportunity for that, but the barrier must be really there for people if must be really there for people if must be really there for people if they're not doing these things cuz I they're not doing these things cuz I they're not doing these things cuz I think it was just reflexive. think it was just reflexive. think it was just reflexive. >> Technology >> Technology >> Technology has a pull. has a pull. has a pull. >> Um, and we can say it's the phones. Um, >> Um, and we can say it's the phones. Um, >> Um, and we can say it's the phones. Um, but we could also say that it's whatever but we could also say that it's whatever but we could also say that it's whatever is on your TV. I mean, there's lots of is on your TV. I mean, there's lots of is on your TV. I mean, there's lots of reasons these days for people to stay in reasons these days for people to stay in reasons these days for people to stay in that just weren't there 20 to 30 years that just weren't there 20 to 30 years that just weren't there 20 to 30 years ago. I'd hope that the message would ago. I'd hope that the message would ago. I'd hope that the message would resonate like you know gang like like resonate like you know gang like like resonate like you know gang like like these whether it's the entertainment these whether it's the entertainment these whether it's the entertainment companies or the apps they're they're companies or the apps they're they're companies or the apps they're they're trying to keep you away from real trying to keep you away from real trying to keep you away from real socialization. Young people, don't you socialization. Young people, don't you socialization. Young people, don't you like rebelling and stuff? Rebel against like rebelling and stuff? Rebel against like rebelling and stuff? Rebel against this, you know. Exactly. Like form these this, you know. Exactly. Like form these this, you know. Exactly. Like form these groups. go out and meet people again in groups. go out and meet people again in groups. go out and meet people again in person. I think it's coming back. person. I think it's coming back. person. I think it's coming back. >> I I really do. I I think the pand I >> I I really do. I I think the pand I >> I I really do. I I think the pand I think it's like it was like a long think it's like it was like a long think it's like it was like a long pandemic hangover where we we just kind pandemic hangover where we we just kind pandemic hangover where we we just kind of forgot this part of our social of forgot this part of our social of forgot this part of our social architecture, but but it's coming back. architecture, but but it's coming back. architecture, but but it's coming back. It it didn't go anywhere. We're still It it didn't go anywhere. We're still It it didn't go anywhere. We're still social creatures and we also have these social creatures and we also have these social creatures and we also have these great frontal loes. And even if you great frontal loes. And even if you great frontal loes. And even if you don't feel like going out and don't feel like going out and don't feel like going out and interacting with people, you can kind of interacting with people, you can kind of interacting with people, you can kind of nudge yourself to do it. Um, and I I nudge yourself to do it. Um, and I I nudge yourself to do it. Um, and I I think uh I think that's pretty think uh I think that's pretty think uh I think that's pretty fantastic. Thank you so much for the fantastic. Thank you so much for the fantastic. Thank you so much for the work you do. It's very brave. It's very work you do. It's very brave. It's very work you do. It's very brave. It's very brave because it runs right up against brave because it runs right up against brave because it runs right up against some long-standing theories of which I, some long-standing theories of which I, some long-standing theories of which I, you know, I I still think very highly of you know, I I still think very highly of you know, I I still think very highly of of a good fraction of the evolutionary of a good fraction of the evolutionary of a good fraction of the evolutionary biology and psychology literature. I now biology and psychology literature. I now biology and psychology literature. I now have to filter it through these new have to filter it through these new have to filter it through these new findings. Um, but you've created your findings. Um, but you've created your findings. Um, but you've created your own new field basically. uh which is of own new field basically. uh which is of own new field basically. uh which is of course why your book which we'll provide course why your book which we'll provide course why your book which we'll provide a link to um and your work is is so a link to um and your work is is so a link to um and your work is is so popular and and it I love the optimism popular and and it I love the optimism popular and and it I love the optimism that it shines into every interaction. that it shines into every interaction. that it shines into every interaction. I'm sure people picked up on that that I'm sure people picked up on that that I'm sure people picked up on that that you're not a doom and gloom guy, you're you're not a doom and gloom guy, you're you're not a doom and gloom guy, you're a solutions guy. Really appreciate your a solutions guy. Really appreciate your a solutions guy. Really appreciate your time here. Um many people will thank you time here. Um many people will thank you time here. Um many people will thank you both those in relationship. you learn both those in relationship. you learn both those in relationship. you learn some things to, you know, armor your some things to, you know, armor your some things to, you know, armor your relationship, understand your relationship, understand your relationship, understand your relationship better yourself, and uh and relationship better yourself, and uh and relationship better yourself, and uh and for those who are who are seeking for those who are who are seeking for those who are who are seeking partners or who are just observing the partners or who are just observing the partners or who are just observing the world around them and are content where world around them and are content where world around them and are content where they're at, um they're going to benefit. they're at, um they're going to benefit. they're at, um they're going to benefit. So, thank you so much. Really appreciate So, thank you so much. Really appreciate So, thank you so much. Really appreciate you. you. you. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> Thank you for joining me for today's >> Thank you for joining me for today's >> Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Paul Eastwick. To discussion with Dr. Paul Eastwick. To discussion with Dr. Paul Eastwick. To learn more about his work and to find a learn more about his work and to find a learn more about his work and to find a link to his book, Bonded by Evolution: link to his book, Bonded by Evolution: link to his book, Bonded by Evolution: The New Science of Love and Connection, The New Science of Love and Connection, The New Science of Love and Connection, please see the links in the show notes please see the links in the show notes please see the links in the show notes caption. If you're learning from andor caption. If you're learning from andor caption. 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