Science-Based Meditation Tools to Improve Your Brain & Health | Dr. Richard Davidson

We actually have really good data on We actually have really good data on this that at least for beginning this that at least for beginning this that at least for beginning meditators, if you do it for 30 days and meditators, if you do it for 30 days and meditators, if you do it for 30 days and you do it just five minutes a day, you you do it just five minutes a day, you you do it just five minutes a day, you will see a significant reduction in will see a significant reduction in will see a significant reduction in symptoms of depression, symptoms of symptoms of depression, symptoms of symptoms of depression, symptoms of anxiety, and symptoms of stress. We've anxiety, and symptoms of stress. We've anxiety, and symptoms of stress. We've shown that repeatedly in randomized shown that repeatedly in randomized shown that repeatedly in randomized control trials. You'll see an increase control trials. You'll see an increase control trials. You'll see an increase on measures of well-being or on measures of well-being or on measures of well-being or flourishing, and we can talk about what flourishing, and we can talk about what flourishing, and we can talk about what those actually mean. You can even see those actually mean. You can even see those actually mean. You can even see just with this amount of practice a just with this amount of practice a just with this amount of practice a reduction in IL6. IL6 is a reduction in IL6. IL6 is a reduction in IL6. IL6 is a pro-inflammatory cytoine. pro-inflammatory cytoine. pro-inflammatory cytoine. Welcome to the Hubberman Lab podcast Welcome to the Hubberman Lab podcast Welcome to the Hubberman Lab podcast where we discuss science and where we discuss science and where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and opthalmology at of neurobiology and opthalmology at of neurobiology and opthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest Stanford School of Medicine. My guest Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Richie Davidson. Dr. Dr. today is Dr. Richie Davidson. Dr. Dr. today is Dr. Richie Davidson. Dr. Dr. Richie Davidson is a professor of Richie Davidson is a professor of Richie Davidson is a professor of psychology and psychiatry at the psychology and psychiatry at the psychology and psychiatry at the University of Wisconsin Madison. He is a University of Wisconsin Madison. He is a University of Wisconsin Madison. He is a pioneer in the study of how meditation pioneer in the study of how meditation pioneer in the study of how meditation impacts the brain both during impacts the brain both during impacts the brain both during meditations but also how it changes your meditations but also how it changes your meditations but also how it changes your brain over time, what we refer to as brain over time, what we refer to as brain over time, what we refer to as neuroplasticity. Today we discuss the neuroplasticity. Today we discuss the neuroplasticity. Today we discuss the incredible health and neuroplasticity incredible health and neuroplasticity incredible health and neuroplasticity benefits that come from regular benefits that come from regular benefits that come from regular meditation, including very brief meditation, including very brief meditation, including very brief meditations of just 5 minutes per day. meditations of just 5 minutes per day. meditations of just 5 minutes per day. Dr. Davidson also dispels many common Dr. Davidson also dispels many common Dr. Davidson also dispels many common myths about meditation. For example, myths about meditation. For example, myths about meditation. For example, contrary to what most people believe, contrary to what most people believe, contrary to what most people believe, the point of meditation is not to clear the point of meditation is not to clear the point of meditation is not to clear your mind or to feel inner peace during your mind or to feel inner peace during your mind or to feel inner peace during the meditation, but rather to observe the meditation, but rather to observe the meditation, but rather to observe your thoughts and any stress you might your thoughts and any stress you might your thoughts and any stress you might experience during the meditation. And in experience during the meditation. And in experience during the meditation. And in doing so, it's kind of like the final doing so, it's kind of like the final doing so, it's kind of like the final hard repetitions of resistance exercise hard repetitions of resistance exercise hard repetitions of resistance exercise or the burn you might feel during or the burn you might feel during or the burn you might feel during cardio, which comes from lactate. In cardio, which comes from lactate. In cardio, which comes from lactate. In that sense, the stress you feel during that sense, the stress you feel during that sense, the stress you feel during meditation and your ability to observe meditation and your ability to observe meditation and your ability to observe it acts as a sort of lactate of the mind it acts as a sort of lactate of the mind it acts as a sort of lactate of the mind that in turn makes you adapt. It makes that in turn makes you adapt. It makes that in turn makes you adapt. It makes you more stress resilient, focused, and you more stress resilient, focused, and you more stress resilient, focused, and peaceful outside of the meditation. Dr. peaceful outside of the meditation. Dr. peaceful outside of the meditation. Dr. Davidson also explains how your brain Davidson also explains how your brain Davidson also explains how your brain changes during different types of changes during different types of changes during different types of meditation such as open monitoring meditation such as open monitoring meditation such as open monitoring meditation or eyes open meditation, meditation or eyes open meditation, meditation or eyes open meditation, walking versus seated, and standing walking versus seated, and standing walking versus seated, and standing meditations, and more. I've been doing meditations, and more. I've been doing meditations, and more. I've been doing meditation over many years, but this meditation over many years, but this meditation over many years, but this conversation with Dr. Richie Davidson conversation with Dr. Richie Davidson conversation with Dr. Richie Davidson changed my daily routine. Afterwards, I changed my daily routine. Afterwards, I changed my daily routine. Afterwards, I immediately started implementing a immediately started implementing a immediately started implementing a 5-minute perday meditation of the sort 5-minute perday meditation of the sort 5-minute perday meditation of the sort that Dr. Davidson describes specifically that Dr. Davidson describes specifically that Dr. Davidson describes specifically for stress resilience. And I have to say for stress resilience. And I have to say for stress resilience. And I have to say it's had a profound impact on my levels it's had a profound impact on my levels it's had a profound impact on my levels of mental clarity, focus, and sleep and of mental clarity, focus, and sleep and of mental clarity, focus, and sleep and stress, just as he explains. In fact, stress, just as he explains. In fact, stress, just as he explains. In fact, it's proved to be one of the most it's proved to be one of the most it's proved to be one of the most beneficial practices I've taken on, beneficial practices I've taken on, beneficial practices I've taken on, especially on days when I wake up with especially on days when I wake up with especially on days when I wake up with tons to do, a little bit stressed or a tons to do, a little bit stressed or a tons to do, a little bit stressed or a lot stressed, and if I didn't sleep lot stressed, and if I didn't sleep lot stressed, and if I didn't sleep quite as well as I would have liked. So quite as well as I would have liked. So quite as well as I would have liked. So today you're going to hear about the today you're going to hear about the today you're going to hear about the incredible science of meditation, the incredible science of meditation, the incredible science of meditation, the brain and bodily changes that occur, but brain and bodily changes that occur, but brain and bodily changes that occur, but also how you can rewire your brain using also how you can rewire your brain using also how you can rewire your brain using meditation. Dr. Richie Davidson is a meditation. Dr. Richie Davidson is a meditation. Dr. Richie Davidson is a true pioneer in this field, being one of true pioneer in this field, being one of true pioneer in this field, being one of the first to bring brain imaging and the first to bring brain imaging and the first to bring brain imaging and studies of mindfulness and meditation to studies of mindfulness and meditation to studies of mindfulness and meditation to the west. He has of course authored some the west. He has of course authored some the west. He has of course authored some of the most impactful research papers on of the most impactful research papers on of the most impactful research papers on these topics, but also popular books, these topics, but also popular books, these topics, but also popular books, including a new book coming out later including a new book coming out later including a new book coming out later this month entitled Born to Flourish: this month entitled Born to Flourish: this month entitled Born to Flourish: How to Thrive in a Challenging World, How to Thrive in a Challenging World, How to Thrive in a Challenging World, which I myself look forward to reading. which I myself look forward to reading. which I myself look forward to reading. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my that this podcast is separate from my that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. teaching and research roles at Stanford. teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and It is, however, part of my desire and It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer effort to bring zero cost to consumer effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science information about science and science information about science and science related tools to the general public. In related tools to the general public. In related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode keeping with that theme, today's episode keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my does include sponsors. And now for my does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Richie Davidson. Dr. discussion with Dr. Richie Davidson. Dr. discussion with Dr. Richie Davidson. Dr. Richie Davidson, welcome. Richie Davidson, welcome. Richie Davidson, welcome. >> Thank you, Andrew. I'm honored to be >> Thank you, Andrew. I'm honored to be >> Thank you, Andrew. I'm honored to be here. here. here. >> Well, it's an honor to have you here. I >> Well, it's an honor to have you here. I >> Well, it's an honor to have you here. I am a longtime fan of your research, of am a longtime fan of your research, of am a longtime fan of your research, of what you've built at the University of what you've built at the University of what you've built at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, uh the books you've Wisconsin, Madison, uh the books you've Wisconsin, Madison, uh the books you've written. We'll talk about your new book. written. We'll talk about your new book. written. We'll talk about your new book. I didn't even know you had a new book. I didn't even know you had a new book. I didn't even know you had a new book. This wasn't a book tour invite. I had se This wasn't a book tour invite. I had se This wasn't a book tour invite. I had se uh seen you give a seminar at Stanford uh seen you give a seminar at Stanford uh seen you give a seminar at Stanford and I said great, here's my opportunity and I said great, here's my opportunity and I said great, here's my opportunity to finally get you on the podcast. But to finally get you on the podcast. But to finally get you on the podcast. But you really transformed the way that I you really transformed the way that I you really transformed the way that I think about not just meditation but all think about not just meditation but all think about not just meditation but all states of mind and how that relates to states of mind and how that relates to states of mind and how that relates to our individual traits and how those can our individual traits and how those can our individual traits and how those can change over time. Today we'll talk about change over time. Today we'll talk about change over time. Today we'll talk about concept and protocols, but I'm curious concept and protocols, but I'm curious concept and protocols, but I'm curious how you think about states of mind how you think about states of mind how you think about states of mind generally. I think it's really important generally. I think it's really important generally. I think it's really important that we frame the discussion with this that we frame the discussion with this that we frame the discussion with this because we all know what sleep is. Most because we all know what sleep is. Most because we all know what sleep is. Most people have heard that sleep has people have heard that sleep has people have heard that sleep has different components, REM sleep, etc. We different components, REM sleep, etc. We different components, REM sleep, etc. We know what it is to be awake, stressed know what it is to be awake, stressed know what it is to be awake, stressed versus calm. But how should we think versus calm. But how should we think versus calm. But how should we think about states of mind? And then once you about states of mind? And then once you about states of mind? And then once you tell us how you think about that, tell us how you think about that, tell us how you think about that, perhaps then we can better place this perhaps then we can better place this perhaps then we can better place this thing we call meditation into a thing we call meditation into a thing we call meditation into a particular bin. particular bin. particular bin. >> So thank you first for having me, >> So thank you first for having me, >> So thank you first for having me, Andrew. And I've just want to say I've Andrew. And I've just want to say I've Andrew. And I've just want to say I've been a long-term fan of yours. So, uh, been a long-term fan of yours. So, uh, been a long-term fan of yours. So, uh, uh, I'm really happy to be here. Uh, in uh, I'm really happy to be here. Uh, in uh, I'm really happy to be here. Uh, in terms of states of mind, I think that at terms of states of mind, I think that at terms of states of mind, I think that at the outset, it's really important that the outset, it's really important that the outset, it's really important that we, uh, also remind listeners that there we, uh, also remind listeners that there we, uh, also remind listeners that there is a thing called traits, too. And so, is a thing called traits, too. And so, is a thing called traits, too. And so, we can't talk about states without also we can't talk about states without also we can't talk about states without also talking about traits. And we'll get to talking about traits. And we'll get to talking about traits. And we'll get to traits in a moment. But I think with traits in a moment. But I think with traits in a moment. But I think with regard to states, we can think of them regard to states, we can think of them regard to states, we can think of them as organized as organized as organized patterns of activity in the brain that patterns of activity in the brain that patterns of activity in the brain that have corresponding have corresponding have corresponding uh uh organized mental uh uh organized mental uh uh organized mental coralates, if you will, or subjective coralates, if you will, or subjective coralates, if you will, or subjective coralates. And there are certain states coralates. And there are certain states coralates. And there are certain states that occur with regularity that are part that occur with regularity that are part that occur with regularity that are part of our biological rhythms. And so um of our biological rhythms. And so um of our biological rhythms. And so um most human beings will have states of most human beings will have states of most human beings will have states of wakefulness of deep sleep and of REM wakefulness of deep sleep and of REM wakefulness of deep sleep and of REM sleep every day and that is regulated by sleep every day and that is regulated by sleep every day and that is regulated by well-known kinds of biological rhythms. well-known kinds of biological rhythms. well-known kinds of biological rhythms. And then there are other kinds of states And then there are other kinds of states And then there are other kinds of states that uh are sometimes described that are that uh are sometimes described that are that uh are sometimes described that are states during what we normally think of states during what we normally think of states during what we normally think of as waking. Although I think honestly the as waking. Although I think honestly the as waking. Although I think honestly the concept of state is often used loosely concept of state is often used loosely concept of state is often used loosely without um rigorous uh boundary criteria without um rigorous uh boundary criteria without um rigorous uh boundary criteria for what constitutes a state and how it for what constitutes a state and how it for what constitutes a state and how it might be distinguished from another might be distinguished from another might be distinguished from another state. There are certain states which if state. There are certain states which if state. There are certain states which if they occur with regularity will lead to they occur with regularity will lead to they occur with regularity will lead to a trait. They'll lead to a shift in the a trait. They'll lead to a shift in the a trait. They'll lead to a shift in the baseline for the next state. Mhm. baseline for the next state. Mhm. baseline for the next state. Mhm. >> There was a paper I wrote many many >> There was a paper I wrote many many >> There was a paper I wrote many many years ago with my dear friend and years ago with my dear friend and years ago with my dear friend and colleague um Daniel Gleman who I wrote colleague um Daniel Gleman who I wrote colleague um Daniel Gleman who I wrote the book Altered Traits with. Uh and the the book Altered Traits with. Uh and the the book Altered Traits with. Uh and the origin of altered traits is really in a origin of altered traits is really in a origin of altered traits is really in a sentence that we wrote in a paper 20 sentence that we wrote in a paper 20 sentence that we wrote in a paper 20 years earlier where we said the after is years earlier where we said the after is years earlier where we said the after is the before for the next during. the before for the next during. the before for the next during. >> The after is the before. >> The after is the before. >> The after is the before. >> For the next during. >> For the next during. >> For the next during. >> Let's drill into that for a second. >> Let's drill into that for a second. >> Let's drill into that for a second. >> Yeah. So what we mean by that is that >> Yeah. So what we mean by that is that >> Yeah. So what we mean by that is that the how you are after a state say you the how you are after a state say you the how you are after a state say you you do a little meditation practice and you do a little meditation practice and you do a little meditation practice and it leads to a state change. uh that it leads to a state change. uh that it leads to a state change. uh that state change may persist in some way and state change may persist in some way and state change may persist in some way and that becomes the next before for the that becomes the next before for the that becomes the next before for the next during. The during is the state is next during. The during is the state is next during. The during is the state is the say the meditation state and so it's the say the meditation state and so it's the say the meditation state and so it's a description of how a state can lead to a description of how a state can lead to a description of how a state can lead to a trait in the domain of emotion. You a trait in the domain of emotion. You a trait in the domain of emotion. You might think that frequent bouts of anger might think that frequent bouts of anger might think that frequent bouts of anger which you can think of as a state can which you can think of as a state can which you can think of as a state can lead to the trait of irritability lead to the trait of irritability lead to the trait of irritability >> which is sort of chronically having a >> which is sort of chronically having a >> which is sort of chronically having a low threshold. You can think of a trait low threshold. You can think of a trait low threshold. You can think of a trait in certain cases as altering the in certain cases as altering the in certain cases as altering the threshold for the elicitation of a threshold for the elicitation of a threshold for the elicitation of a state. state. state. >> So a trait of irritability would be uh a >> So a trait of irritability would be uh a >> So a trait of irritability would be uh a trait where you have a lowered threshold trait where you have a lowered threshold trait where you have a lowered threshold for the elicitation of anger. for for the elicitation of anger. for for the elicitation of anger. for example. example. example. >> Mhm. Yeah. I love that example because I >> Mhm. Yeah. I love that example because I >> Mhm. Yeah. I love that example because I know that many people will resonate with know that many people will resonate with know that many people will resonate with it because so much of what we see online it because so much of what we see online it because so much of what we see online nowadays is designed to capture our nowadays is designed to capture our nowadays is designed to capture our attention by engaging negative affect attention by engaging negative affect attention by engaging negative affect mild anger, frustration or even outrage. mild anger, frustration or even outrage. mild anger, frustration or even outrage. There's other content online too of There's other content online too of There's other content online too of course and this podcast is online after course and this podcast is online after course and this podcast is online after all um and many other uh sources of what all um and many other uh sources of what all um and many other uh sources of what I consider benevolent educational I consider benevolent educational I consider benevolent educational information. But information. But information. But it is so true that you know what we it is so true that you know what we it is so true that you know what we experience in one portion of our day experience in one portion of our day experience in one portion of our day impacts how we are in the rest of our impacts how we are in the rest of our impacts how we are in the rest of our day. And perhaps the simplest correlate day. And perhaps the simplest correlate day. And perhaps the simplest correlate for all of it for me anyway is sleep. for all of it for me anyway is sleep. for all of it for me anyway is sleep. You know if I sleep really well for You know if I sleep really well for You know if I sleep really well for three or four nights in a row I wake up three or four nights in a row I wake up three or four nights in a row I wake up in a certain state that certainly makes in a certain state that certainly makes in a certain state that certainly makes my day go differently. And the inverse my day go differently. And the inverse my day go differently. And the inverse is also true if I don't sleep well. I is also true if I don't sleep well. I is also true if I don't sleep well. I feel like we have such great feel like we have such great feel like we have such great nomenclature and understanding of brain nomenclature and understanding of brain nomenclature and understanding of brain activity um and how that impacts activity um and how that impacts activity um and how that impacts emotionality for sleep. We know that REM emotionality for sleep. We know that REM emotionality for sleep. We know that REM sleepbased dreams are very vivid. Uh sleepbased dreams are very vivid. Uh sleepbased dreams are very vivid. Uh slowwave sleepbased dreams are less slowwave sleepbased dreams are less slowwave sleepbased dreams are less vivid perhaps. We know the electrical vivid perhaps. We know the electrical vivid perhaps. We know the electrical activities associated with those activities associated with those activities associated with those different states of sleep. different states of sleep. different states of sleep. I'm aware of a lot less I'm aware of a lot less I'm aware of a lot less information about brain activities and information about brain activities and information about brain activities and and clear definitions of waking states and clear definitions of waking states and clear definitions of waking states of mind. Do you mind if we talk about of mind. Do you mind if we talk about of mind. Do you mind if we talk about this for a little bit? Sure. It's been a this for a little bit? Sure. It's been a this for a little bit? Sure. It's been a few years since I've heard about and I few years since I've heard about and I few years since I've heard about and I don't think we've ever really talked on don't think we've ever really talked on don't think we've ever really talked on this podcast about, you know, alpha this podcast about, you know, alpha this podcast about, you know, alpha waves, beta waves, theta waves. Maybe waves, beta waves, theta waves. Maybe waves, beta waves, theta waves. Maybe you just educate us a bit on some of the you just educate us a bit on some of the you just educate us a bit on some of the waking brain states that we've all waking brain states that we've all waking brain states that we've all experienced perhaps are in right now, experienced perhaps are in right now, experienced perhaps are in right now, but we just don't hear about that much but we just don't hear about that much but we just don't hear about that much anymore. So yeah, we can talk about anymore. So yeah, we can talk about anymore. So yeah, we can talk about those um oscillations of brain those um oscillations of brain those um oscillations of brain electrical activity and there are broad electrical activity and there are broad electrical activity and there are broad suggestions for what kind of state they suggestions for what kind of state they suggestions for what kind of state they may reflect. Um uh and you know I'll go may reflect. Um uh and you know I'll go may reflect. Um uh and you know I'll go through that but it's also important to through that but it's also important to through that but it's also important to recognize that you can be showing alpha recognize that you can be showing alpha recognize that you can be showing alpha activity in one part of the brain and activity in one part of the brain and activity in one part of the brain and beta activity in another part of the beta activity in another part of the beta activity in another part of the brain simultaneously. And so it's a bit brain simultaneously. And so it's a bit brain simultaneously. And so it's a bit coarse to talk about these as general coarse to talk about these as general coarse to talk about these as general characteristics. But there could be characteristics. But there could be characteristics. But there could be times when we see predominantly one times when we see predominantly one times when we see predominantly one oscillation or another. And so talking oscillation or another. And so talking oscillation or another. And so talking about generalized states in that context about generalized states in that context about generalized states in that context may be more reasonable. So with that as may be more reasonable. So with that as may be more reasonable. So with that as a caveat, let me say that in um in a caveat, let me say that in um in a caveat, let me say that in um in humans we see uh a broad range of humans we see uh a broad range of humans we see uh a broad range of frequencies that go from approximately frequencies that go from approximately frequencies that go from approximately one hertz, one cycle per second to one hertz, one cycle per second to one hertz, one cycle per second to approximately 40 hertz. And from roughly approximately 40 hertz. And from roughly approximately 40 hertz. And from roughly 1 to four hertz is delta activity that 1 to four hertz is delta activity that 1 to four hertz is delta activity that is typically not seen during waking. Uh is typically not seen during waking. Uh is typically not seen during waking. Uh it's predominant during deep sleep. And it's predominant during deep sleep. And it's predominant during deep sleep. And there is data that suggests that the there is data that suggests that the there is data that suggests that the density of uh delta activity or slowwave density of uh delta activity or slowwave density of uh delta activity or slowwave activity during deep sleep is actually activity during deep sleep is actually activity during deep sleep is actually diagnostic of how restorative that sleep diagnostic of how restorative that sleep diagnostic of how restorative that sleep is which is a whole separate set of is which is a whole separate set of is which is a whole separate set of issues and super cool. And there are issues and super cool. And there are issues and super cool. And there are actually some really interesting um actually some really interesting um actually some really interesting um highly novel strategies now using neuro highly novel strategies now using neuro highly novel strategies now using neuro stimulation to actually boost slowwave stimulation to actually boost slowwave stimulation to actually boost slowwave activity during deep sleep which may activity during deep sleep which may activity during deep sleep which may actually help to potentiate some of the actually help to potentiate some of the actually help to potentiate some of the skill acquisition that we do during the skill acquisition that we do during the skill acquisition that we do during the day day day >> including meditation. And we're doing >> including meditation. And we're doing >> including meditation. And we're doing some of that work now and which is some of that work now and which is some of that work now and which is actually you had asked earlier before we actually you had asked earlier before we actually you had asked earlier before we started about some novel new work um started about some novel new work um started about some novel new work um that we're doing and that's also one of that we're doing and that's also one of that we're doing and that's also one of the really cool new things um uh so we the really cool new things um uh so we the really cool new things um uh so we can dive into that. can dive into that. can dive into that. >> I'd like to take a quick break to >> I'd like to take a quick break to >> I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge one of our sponsors David. acknowledge one of our sponsors David. acknowledge one of our sponsors David. David makes protein bars unlike any David makes protein bars unlike any David makes protein bars unlike any other. 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I saw a paper recently that described a, and forgive recently that described a, and forgive recently that described a, and forgive me if this was one of your papers, um, I me if this was one of your papers, um, I me if this was one of your papers, um, I don't think it was, it described a don't think it was, it described a don't think it was, it described a pre-sleep meditation that one could do pre-sleep meditation that one could do pre-sleep meditation that one could do to significantly increase the amount of to significantly increase the amount of to significantly increase the amount of growth hormone that's released once one growth hormone that's released once one growth hormone that's released once one gets to sleep. And I thought that wasn't gets to sleep. And I thought that wasn't gets to sleep. And I thought that wasn't >> and I thought this can't and then I I >> and I thought this can't and then I I >> and I thought this can't and then I I realized this makes total sense, right? realized this makes total sense, right? realized this makes total sense, right? I mean, it's it has to do with I forget I mean, it's it has to do with I forget I mean, it's it has to do with I forget the the sentence he wrote, but that how the the sentence he wrote, but that how the the sentence he wrote, but that how we exit one state impacts how we we exit one state impacts how we we exit one state impacts how we encounter the next one. Yeah. encounter the next one. Yeah. encounter the next one. Yeah. >> And perhaps even our trait within uh uh >> And perhaps even our trait within uh uh >> And perhaps even our trait within uh uh that next event of life. Um so we'll that next event of life. Um so we'll that next event of life. Um so we'll definitely get back to this when we talk definitely get back to this when we talk definitely get back to this when we talk about protocols because I think that about protocols because I think that about protocols because I think that people vastly underestimate the extent people vastly underestimate the extent people vastly underestimate the extent to which um different uh let's call them to which um different uh let's call them to which um different uh let's call them meditations for lack of a better word uh meditations for lack of a better word uh meditations for lack of a better word uh right now how that can impact how we right now how that can impact how we right now how that can impact how we show up to work how we show up to show up to work how we show up to show up to work how we show up to relating how we show up even to sleep. relating how we show up even to sleep. relating how we show up even to sleep. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> And it's not just about being calm so >> And it's not just about being calm so >> And it's not just about being calm so you can fall asleep. Turns out this you can fall asleep. Turns out this you can fall asleep. Turns out this meditation that was described um boosts meditation that was described um boosts meditation that was described um boosts growth hormone in a you know incredible growth hormone in a you know incredible growth hormone in a you know incredible way um without altering some of the way um without altering some of the way um without altering some of the other features of sleep. other features of sleep. other features of sleep. >> I saw that paper too. Okay. >> I saw that paper too. Okay. >> I saw that paper too. Okay. >> It wasn't ours. Yeah. Uh but yeah, super >> It wasn't ours. Yeah. Uh but yeah, super >> It wasn't ours. Yeah. Uh but yeah, super interesting. I I agree. interesting. I I agree. interesting. I I agree. >> Yeah. So, just to continue with the >> Yeah. So, just to continue with the >> Yeah. So, just to continue with the brain oscillations, I talked about brain oscillations, I talked about brain oscillations, I talked about delta. The next brain the next faster delta. The next brain the next faster delta. The next brain the next faster brain rhythm is theta activity which is brain rhythm is theta activity which is brain rhythm is theta activity which is roughly between five and seven hertz. Um roughly between five and seven hertz. Um roughly between five and seven hertz. Um theta activity is often seen uh during theta activity is often seen uh during theta activity is often seen uh during transition from wakefulness to sleep. Uh transition from wakefulness to sleep. Uh transition from wakefulness to sleep. Uh and it's associated with these um uh as and it's associated with these um uh as and it's associated with these um uh as you were saying earlier these liinal you were saying earlier these liinal you were saying earlier these liinal states. It's also been associated with states. It's also been associated with states. It's also been associated with certain kinds of meditation. certain kinds of meditation. certain kinds of meditation. Alpha activity is roughly between 8 and Alpha activity is roughly between 8 and Alpha activity is roughly between 8 and 13 cycles per second or hertz. And uh 13 cycles per second or hertz. And uh 13 cycles per second or hertz. And uh it's often characterized as quote it's often characterized as quote it's often characterized as quote relaxed wakefulness. Beta activity is uh relaxed wakefulness. Beta activity is uh relaxed wakefulness. Beta activity is uh typically defined as roughly 13 to typically defined as roughly 13 to typically defined as roughly 13 to roughly 20 hertz and uh it's associated roughly 20 hertz and uh it's associated roughly 20 hertz and uh it's associated with uh activation. uh if there is a with uh activation. uh if there is a with uh activation. uh if there is a cognitive task that a person is engaged cognitive task that a person is engaged cognitive task that a person is engaged in uh you will typically see increases in uh you will typically see increases in uh you will typically see increases in beta activity um particularly in the in beta activity um particularly in the in beta activity um particularly in the cortical regions that are engaged in cortical regions that are engaged in cortical regions that are engaged in those cognitive tasks. And then finally those cognitive tasks. And then finally those cognitive tasks. And then finally there's gamma activity. Gamma activity there's gamma activity. Gamma activity there's gamma activity. Gamma activity is especially interesting. We see that is especially interesting. We see that is especially interesting. We see that in meditators uh long-term meditators. in meditators uh long-term meditators. in meditators uh long-term meditators. Gamma activity has as its um peak Gamma activity has as its um peak Gamma activity has as its um peak frequency roughly 40 hertz. It is seen frequency roughly 40 hertz. It is seen frequency roughly 40 hertz. It is seen in a number of contexts. One of them is in a number of contexts. One of them is in a number of contexts. One of them is during what some have called insight. Uh during what some have called insight. Uh during what some have called insight. Uh and insight is where uh I think most and insight is where uh I think most and insight is where uh I think most viewers have had the experience of um viewers have had the experience of um viewers have had the experience of um working on a problem and all of a sudden working on a problem and all of a sudden working on a problem and all of a sudden they they just have an aha moment. Uh they they just have an aha moment. Uh they they just have an aha moment. Uh and things sort of gel. They congeal. Uh and things sort of gel. They congeal. Uh and things sort of gel. They congeal. Uh they come together. And there have been they come together. And there have been they come together. And there have been some clever experimental designs where some clever experimental designs where some clever experimental designs where investigators have created tasks that investigators have created tasks that investigators have created tasks that increase the likelihood of aha moments. increase the likelihood of aha moments. increase the likelihood of aha moments. They're sort of trivial uh in the They're sort of trivial uh in the They're sort of trivial uh in the experimental context or simple cognitive experimental context or simple cognitive experimental context or simple cognitive tasks where all of a sudden you just tasks where all of a sudden you just tasks where all of a sudden you just recognize the answer. It might be recognize the answer. It might be recognize the answer. It might be something like a cross word puzzle and something like a cross word puzzle and something like a cross word puzzle and um you know you're trying to get um you know you're trying to get um you know you're trying to get something a word to fit and suddenly you something a word to fit and suddenly you something a word to fit and suddenly you get the word it comes in a moment and get the word it comes in a moment and get the word it comes in a moment and it's kind of an instantaneous it's kind of an instantaneous it's kind of an instantaneous recognition and you typically would see recognition and you typically would see recognition and you typically would see a burst of gamma oscillations that is a burst of gamma oscillations that is a burst of gamma oscillations that is very short it the average duration would very short it the average duration would very short it the average duration would be around 250 milliseconds really short be around 250 milliseconds really short be around 250 milliseconds really short what we see in these long-term what we see in these long-term what we see in these long-term meditators is the prevalence of high meditators is the prevalence of high meditators is the prevalence of high amplitude gamma activity that goes on amplitude gamma activity that goes on amplitude gamma activity that goes on for seconds and minutes. for seconds and minutes. for seconds and minutes. >> When we first saw that, by the way, and >> When we first saw that, by the way, and >> When we first saw that, by the way, and there's a lot of interesting history there's a lot of interesting history there's a lot of interesting history here, but we first reported this in 2004 here, but we first reported this in 2004 here, but we first reported this in 2004 with very long-term meditators where the with very long-term meditators where the with very long-term meditators where the average lifetime practice of this group average lifetime practice of this group average lifetime practice of this group was 34,000 hours. Um, listeners can do was 34,000 hours. Um, listeners can do was 34,000 hours. Um, listeners can do go do the arithmetic later, but 34,000 go do the arithmetic later, but 34,000 go do the arithmetic later, but 34,000 hours is a big number. And in these hours is a big number. And in these hours is a big number. And in these practitioners, we saw these really high practitioners, we saw these really high practitioners, we saw these really high amplitude gamma oscillations that amplitude gamma oscillations that amplitude gamma oscillations that actually were visible to the naked eye, actually were visible to the naked eye, actually were visible to the naked eye, which is unusual for this kind of which is unusual for this kind of which is unusual for this kind of measurement. Uh, and in the original measurement. Uh, and in the original measurement. Uh, and in the original paper, which was published in PNAS in paper, which was published in PNAS in paper, which was published in PNAS in 2004, we actually had a figure of the 2004, we actually had a figure of the 2004, we actually had a figure of the raw EEG from one practitioner just to raw EEG from one practitioner just to raw EEG from one practitioner just to illustrate how prominent it is that you illustrate how prominent it is that you illustrate how prominent it is that you can see it with the naked eye. And we've can see it with the naked eye. And we've can see it with the naked eye. And we've subsequently replicated that. It's been subsequently replicated that. It's been subsequently replicated that. It's been replicated by others. We've also seen replicated by others. We've also seen replicated by others. We've also seen that this gamma activity is um found that this gamma activity is um found that this gamma activity is um found during slowwave sleep. It's actually during slowwave sleep. It's actually during slowwave sleep. It's actually superimposed on delta oscillations. superimposed on delta oscillations. superimposed on delta oscillations. >> Is there any evidence that meditation >> Is there any evidence that meditation >> Is there any evidence that meditation can actually replace sleep or that it can actually replace sleep or that it can actually replace sleep or that it can offset some of the negative effects can offset some of the negative effects can offset some of the negative effects of sleep depriv mild sleep deprivation? of sleep depriv mild sleep deprivation? of sleep depriv mild sleep deprivation? >> This is a great question. I think about >> This is a great question. I think about >> This is a great question. I think about it a lot. I don't think that the it a lot. I don't think that the it a lot. I don't think that the evidence is is clear on this at all. Um, evidence is is clear on this at all. Um, evidence is is clear on this at all. Um, and I'll give several examples. First, and I'll give several examples. First, and I'll give several examples. First, the Daly Lama, who probably meditates the Daly Lama, who probably meditates the Daly Lama, who probably meditates more than anybody I know, he has a more than anybody I know, he has a more than anybody I know, he has a practice of literally doing practice of literally doing practice of literally doing approximately 4 hours of meditation approximately 4 hours of meditation approximately 4 hours of meditation every day. And he's been doing that for every day. And he's been doing that for every day. And he's been doing that for more than 60 years. more than 60 years. more than 60 years. >> I'm reassured by that. If you told me >> I'm reassured by that. If you told me >> I'm reassured by that. If you told me the Daly Lama meditates for, you know, the Daly Lama meditates for, you know, the Daly Lama meditates for, you know, 40 minutes a week, I'd actually be 40 minutes a week, I'd actually be 40 minutes a week, I'd actually be concerned about the role of Don Daly concerned about the role of Don Daly concerned about the role of Don Daly Lama. So the title, you know, Lama. So the title, you know, Lama. So the title, you know, >> so and he very proudly says, "I sleep 9 >> so and he very proudly says, "I sleep 9 >> so and he very proudly says, "I sleep 9 hours a night." hours a night." hours a night." >> Wow. Okay. >> Wow. Okay. >> Wow. Okay. >> Nine hours a night. And he gets nine >> Nine hours a night. And he gets nine >> Nine hours a night. And he gets nine hours of sleep. That's his regular hours of sleep. That's his regular hours of sleep. That's his regular sleep. Uh and he gets it all the time. sleep. Uh and he gets it all the time. sleep. Uh and he gets it all the time. And you know, I don't know whether he And you know, I don't know whether he And you know, I don't know whether he would say he needs it, but he gets nine would say he needs it, but he gets nine would say he needs it, but he gets nine hours a night. And he's very proud of hours a night. And he's very proud of hours a night. And he's very proud of that. that. that. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh >> okay, >> okay, >> okay, >> that's one counter example. You know, >> that's one counter example. You know, >> that's one counter example. You know, myself, I have done a bunch of um sleep myself, I have done a bunch of um sleep myself, I have done a bunch of um sleep science with collaborating with some science with collaborating with some science with collaborating with some sleep researchers, and many years ago, sleep researchers, and many years ago, sleep researchers, and many years ago, one of these people said to me, Richie, one of these people said to me, Richie, one of these people said to me, Richie, you really should give up an alarm you really should give up an alarm you really should give up an alarm clock. Just don't use an alarm clock clock. Just don't use an alarm clock clock. Just don't use an alarm clock anymore. Uh and I was getting at that anymore. Uh and I was getting at that anymore. Uh and I was getting at that time between 5 and a half and 6 hours a time between 5 and a half and 6 hours a time between 5 and a half and 6 hours a night of sleep. And I gave up the alarm night of sleep. And I gave up the alarm night of sleep. And I gave up the alarm clock and my average length of sleep clock and my average length of sleep clock and my average length of sleep increased by about 30 to 45 minutes. increased by about 30 to 45 minutes. increased by about 30 to 45 minutes. >> And I feel much better. Oh, sure. >> And I feel much better. Oh, sure. >> And I feel much better. Oh, sure. Especially since the extra sleep tends Especially since the extra sleep tends Especially since the extra sleep tends to be toward morning, you're getting to be toward morning, you're getting to be toward morning, you're getting more REM sleep. But the difference for more REM sleep. But the difference for more REM sleep. But the difference for me between 5 and a half and, you know, me between 5 and a half and, you know, me between 5 and a half and, you know, six or six and a half is in terms of six or six and a half is in terms of six or six and a half is in terms of just subjective well-being and focus, just subjective well-being and focus, just subjective well-being and focus, etc. is uh tremendous. Slightly related etc. is uh tremendous. Slightly related etc. is uh tremendous. Slightly related question. If one were going to choose to question. If one were going to choose to question. If one were going to choose to meditate and had the option to do it at meditate and had the option to do it at meditate and had the option to do it at a sort of liinal state between let's say a sort of liinal state between let's say a sort of liinal state between let's say uh being awake and going to sleep at uh being awake and going to sleep at uh being awake and going to sleep at night or between sleep um and what night or between sleep um and what night or between sleep um and what shortly after one wakes up and starting shortly after one wakes up and starting shortly after one wakes up and starting the day versus in the middle of the day the day versus in the middle of the day the day versus in the middle of the day or in the middle of the morning. Is or in the middle of the morning. Is or in the middle of the morning. Is there any advantage to placing there any advantage to placing there any advantage to placing meditation in one of these what I'm meditation in one of these what I'm meditation in one of these what I'm calling liinal states or transition calling liinal states or transition calling liinal states or transition states between sleeping and awake in states between sleeping and awake in states between sleeping and awake in either direction? I would say probably either direction? I would say probably either direction? I would say probably for most people yes is the answer but I for most people yes is the answer but I for most people yes is the answer but I think there's a lot of individual think there's a lot of individual think there's a lot of individual variability. In general I would say it's variability. In general I would say it's variability. In general I would say it's useful to meditate when you're feeling useful to meditate when you're feeling useful to meditate when you're feeling most awake uh and uh less sleepy. most awake uh and uh less sleepy. most awake uh and uh less sleepy. Sleepiness is uh an important obstacle Sleepiness is uh an important obstacle Sleepiness is uh an important obstacle in meditation and there's a lot to say in meditation and there's a lot to say in meditation and there's a lot to say about that. about that. about that. >> Yeah, I'm surprised to hear that. I >> Yeah, I'm surprised to hear that. I >> Yeah, I'm surprised to hear that. I expected you to say that one should expected you to say that one should expected you to say that one should meditate at a time when the brain is meditate at a time when the brain is meditate at a time when the brain is closest to sleep because you want to be closest to sleep because you want to be closest to sleep because you want to be in a a state of mind that's less about in a a state of mind that's less about in a a state of mind that's less about controlling your thoughts. But then controlling your thoughts. But then controlling your thoughts. But then again, I could also see an argument for again, I could also see an argument for again, I could also see an argument for how meditation it involves a redirect of how meditation it involves a redirect of how meditation it involves a redirect of attention. Um, so let's actually drill attention. Um, so let's actually drill attention. Um, so let's actually drill into this a bit. into this a bit. into this a bit. >> What is the meditative state that that >> What is the meditative state that that >> What is the meditative state that that one is seeking for quote unquote one is seeking for quote unquote one is seeking for quote unquote effective meditation? effective meditation? effective meditation? >> Yeah. So, first let me um say that just >> Yeah. So, first let me um say that just >> Yeah. So, first let me um say that just like there are hundreds of different like there are hundreds of different like there are hundreds of different kinds of sports, there are hundreds of kinds of sports, there are hundreds of kinds of sports, there are hundreds of different different kinds of meditation. different different kinds of meditation. different different kinds of meditation. They don't all do the same thing. They They don't all do the same thing. They They don't all do the same thing. They have different effects on the brain and have different effects on the brain and have different effects on the brain and the body. And so I think it's really the body. And so I think it's really the body. And so I think it's really important that we not lump all of important that we not lump all of important that we not lump all of meditation together. Uh uh so that's one meditation together. Uh uh so that's one meditation together. Uh uh so that's one really important thing. really important thing. really important thing. >> Can we divide it up? So for instance, if >> Can we divide it up? So for instance, if >> Can we divide it up? So for instance, if we were going to draw the parallel with we were going to draw the parallel with we were going to draw the parallel with exercise, and maybe we'll do that exercise, and maybe we'll do that exercise, and maybe we'll do that several times today, we can broadly lump several times today, we can broadly lump several times today, we can broadly lump exercise into cardiovascular and exercise into cardiovascular and exercise into cardiovascular and resistance training. There's also resistance training. There's also resistance training. There's also mobility work, and then and then there's mobility work, and then and then there's mobility work, and then and then there's a bunch of other stuff with meditation. a bunch of other stuff with meditation. a bunch of other stuff with meditation. Can we create some broad bins? Yes. Can we create some broad bins? Yes. Can we create some broad bins? Yes. >> And what are those broad bins? And then >> And what are those broad bins? And then >> And what are those broad bins? And then we can go into specific practices. we can go into specific practices. we can go into specific practices. >> Yeah. So yes, we can create some broad >> Yeah. So yes, we can create some broad >> Yeah. So yes, we can create some broad bins. So, and we've done that. We've bins. So, and we've done that. We've bins. So, and we've done that. We've published some papers uh that uh offer published some papers uh that uh offer published some papers uh that uh offer typologies for classifying different typologies for classifying different typologies for classifying different meditation states. So um one kind of meditation states. So um one kind of meditation states. So um one kind of meditation we call focused attention meditation we call focused attention meditation we call focused attention meditation and focused attention meditation and focused attention meditation and focused attention meditation is um where you are narrowing meditation is um where you are narrowing meditation is um where you are narrowing your uh aperture of awareness to a your uh aperture of awareness to a your uh aperture of awareness to a specific uh object. It could be an specific uh object. It could be an specific uh object. It could be an external object. It could also be an external object. It could also be an external object. It could also be an internal. It could be for example your internal. It could be for example your internal. It could be for example your respiration. uh it could be a sound and respiration. uh it could be a sound and respiration. uh it could be a sound and there is a narrowing of the aperture and there is a narrowing of the aperture and there is a narrowing of the aperture and this is all broadly within the category this is all broadly within the category this is all broadly within the category of practices that we would say uh are uh of practices that we would say uh are uh of practices that we would say uh are uh cultivating aspects of awareness. So cultivating aspects of awareness. So cultivating aspects of awareness. So another awareness practice is what we another awareness practice is what we another awareness practice is what we call open monitoring meditation and open call open monitoring meditation and open call open monitoring meditation and open monitoring is where there is no specific monitoring is where there is no specific monitoring is where there is no specific focus. Um but rather the aperture is focus. Um but rather the aperture is focus. Um but rather the aperture is broadened and there is no specific broadened and there is no specific broadened and there is no specific intention to focus on any one thing or intention to focus on any one thing or intention to focus on any one thing or another. The invitation is to simply be another. The invitation is to simply be another. The invitation is to simply be aware of whatever is arising as it aware of whatever is arising as it aware of whatever is arising as it arises. One of the aspirations there or arises. One of the aspirations there or arises. One of the aspirations there or the invitations is not to um try to get the invitations is not to um try to get the invitations is not to um try to get rid of thoughts because our minds and rid of thoughts because our minds and rid of thoughts because our minds and our brains are built to generate our brains are built to generate our brains are built to generate thoughts. So there's no um goal if you thoughts. So there's no um goal if you thoughts. So there's no um goal if you will to get rid of thoughts but rather will to get rid of thoughts but rather will to get rid of thoughts but rather to if thoughts arise that's another to if thoughts arise that's another to if thoughts arise that's another object that you can be aware of. You object that you can be aware of. You object that you can be aware of. You know we talked about sleep and and know we talked about sleep and and know we talked about sleep and and sleepiness and and that earlier you can sleepiness and and that earlier you can sleepiness and and that earlier you can even you know you can do you can be even you know you can do you can be even you know you can do you can be aware of being sleepy. You can be aware aware of being sleepy. You can be aware aware of being sleepy. You can be aware of being distracted. of being distracted. of being distracted. The goal, if you will, is not to change The goal, if you will, is not to change The goal, if you will, is not to change or to fix anything, if you will. The the or to fix anything, if you will. The the or to fix anything, if you will. The the invitation is to shift from a mode of invitation is to shift from a mode of invitation is to shift from a mode of doing to a mode of simply being. doing to a mode of simply being. doing to a mode of simply being. >> I want to talk about this thing about >> I want to talk about this thing about >> I want to talk about this thing about doing to being. um because the language doing to being. um because the language doing to being. um because the language can sound a bit mystical and vague to can sound a bit mystical and vague to can sound a bit mystical and vague to people, but as a longtime practitioner people, but as a longtime practitioner people, but as a longtime practitioner of yoga nidra, um I've talked a lot of yoga nidra, um I've talked a lot of yoga nidra, um I've talked a lot about on this podcast, there's this about on this podcast, there's this about on this podcast, there's this instruction inside of yoga nidra to instruction inside of yoga nidra to instruction inside of yoga nidra to shift from thinking and doing to being shift from thinking and doing to being shift from thinking and doing to being and feeling. and feeling. and feeling. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Which is beautiful language, poetic, >> Which is beautiful language, poetic, >> Which is beautiful language, poetic, etc. But also as neuroscientists and for etc. But also as neuroscientists and for etc. But also as neuroscientists and for the general public, I think it might be the general public, I think it might be the general public, I think it might be useful for us to just maybe just double useful for us to just maybe just double useful for us to just maybe just double click on that for one second. click on that for one second. click on that for one second. >> As a neuroscientist, I think of thinking >> As a neuroscientist, I think of thinking >> As a neuroscientist, I think of thinking and doing as okay, doing is action. and doing as okay, doing is action. and doing as okay, doing is action. >> Um, so that would the opposite of that >> Um, so that would the opposite of that >> Um, so that would the opposite of that would be stop moving the body. Um, would be stop moving the body. Um, would be stop moving the body. Um, thinking uh well there's a whole thinking uh well there's a whole thinking uh well there's a whole discussion to be had about what is discussion to be had about what is discussion to be had about what is thinking in neuroscience. Um, but thinking in neuroscience. Um, but thinking in neuroscience. Um, but certainly you wouldn't want to plan. certainly you wouldn't want to plan. certainly you wouldn't want to plan. You wouldn't want to be ruminating on You wouldn't want to be ruminating on You wouldn't want to be ruminating on the past. the past. the past. Presumably, you would want to be more in Presumably, you would want to be more in Presumably, you would want to be more in a state of sensation and perceiving a state of sensation and perceiving a state of sensation and perceiving what's happening right now. So, is that what's happening right now. So, is that what's happening right now. So, is that an appropriate breakdown or is it um is an appropriate breakdown or is it um is an appropriate breakdown or is it um is it wrong? Is it insufficient? I'm not it wrong? Is it insufficient? I'm not it wrong? Is it insufficient? I'm not trying to score an A with the professor trying to score an A with the professor trying to score an A with the professor here. I'm just trying to I'm trying to here. I'm just trying to I'm trying to here. I'm just trying to I'm trying to figure out when we hear move from figure out when we hear move from figure out when we hear move from thinking and doing to being and feeling, thinking and doing to being and feeling, thinking and doing to being and feeling, what does that mean in terms of what does that mean in terms of what does that mean in terms of actionable steps that people can take? actionable steps that people can take? actionable steps that people can take? Yeah. So I think that the way you Yeah. So I think that the way you Yeah. So I think that the way you describe it is basically accurate with a describe it is basically accurate with a describe it is basically accurate with a little bit of um perhaps uh tweak. Uh so little bit of um perhaps uh tweak. Uh so little bit of um perhaps uh tweak. Uh so if if when uh if one is invited to do if if when uh if one is invited to do if if when uh if one is invited to do this and one finds oneself ruminating or this and one finds oneself ruminating or this and one finds oneself ruminating or planning for example which is supposedly planning for example which is supposedly planning for example which is supposedly an activity you're quote not supposed to an activity you're quote not supposed to an activity you're quote not supposed to be doing you know rather than trying to be doing you know rather than trying to be doing you know rather than trying to stop it stop it stop it >> um it's simply to be aware of it. Wow >> um it's simply to be aware of it. Wow >> um it's simply to be aware of it. Wow I'm now planning or I'm now ruminating I'm now planning or I'm now ruminating I'm now planning or I'm now ruminating about something that happened in the about something that happened in the about something that happened in the past. What really is most important is past. What really is most important is past. What really is most important is the invitation not to change it, not to the invitation not to change it, not to the invitation not to change it, not to actively try to shift it, but to simply actively try to shift it, but to simply actively try to shift it, but to simply be aware. Um, and one of the, I think, be aware. Um, and one of the, I think, be aware. Um, and one of the, I think, conjectures in all of this is that conjectures in all of this is that conjectures in all of this is that there's so much going on under the hood there's so much going on under the hood there's so much going on under the hood that we're typically not aware of. You that we're typically not aware of. You that we're typically not aware of. You know our lives are moving at such a pace know our lives are moving at such a pace know our lives are moving at such a pace that the information that is that the information that is that the information that is transpiring uh is um is occurring at transpiring uh is um is occurring at transpiring uh is um is occurring at such a rapid rate that we are typically such a rapid rate that we are typically such a rapid rate that we are typically aware of only a small fraction of that. aware of only a small fraction of that. aware of only a small fraction of that. And this is a practice that's inviting And this is a practice that's inviting And this is a practice that's inviting you to simply um be aware of that. And you to simply um be aware of that. And you to simply um be aware of that. And uh uh and and you know, not doing is a uh uh and and you know, not doing is a uh uh and and you know, not doing is a helpful kind of thing because if we're helpful kind of thing because if we're helpful kind of thing because if we're if we're acting in the world, we if we're acting in the world, we if we're acting in the world, we obviously need to navigate and there are obviously need to navigate and there are obviously need to navigate and there are things we we obviously need to do to be things we we obviously need to do to be things we we obviously need to do to be safe and to protect ourselves and so safe and to protect ourselves and so safe and to protect ourselves and so forth. And so that will engage other forth. And so that will engage other forth. And so that will engage other mechanisms. I'm interested in um the mechanisms. I'm interested in um the mechanisms. I'm interested in um the possibility or maybe you've seen this in possibility or maybe you've seen this in possibility or maybe you've seen this in the data that there are at least two the data that there are at least two the data that there are at least two different types of people. People who different types of people. People who different types of people. People who for instance go through life for instance go through life for instance go through life feeling, doing, being, thinking, and feeling, doing, being, thinking, and feeling, doing, being, thinking, and projecting things out into the world. Or projecting things out into the world. Or projecting things out into the world. Or maybe they're quiet people and they maybe they're quiet people and they maybe they're quiet people and they don't project much out into the world, don't project much out into the world, don't project much out into the world, but they're just doing their thing. And but they're just doing their thing. And but they're just doing their thing. And they're not thinking about their they're not thinking about their they're not thinking about their thinking. They're not thinking about thinking. They're not thinking about thinking. They're not thinking about their doing. They're just doing. We know their doing. They're just doing. We know their doing. They're just doing. We know people like this. Then there are people people like this. Then there are people people like this. Then there are people who are always multitracking who are always multitracking who are always multitracking like uh you know they're self-conscious like uh you know they're self-conscious like uh you know they're self-conscious they're very self-aware and I'm they're very self-aware and I'm they're very self-aware and I'm wondering whether or not a form of wondering whether or not a form of wondering whether or not a form of meditation where somebody arrives at the meditation where somebody arrives at the meditation where somebody arrives at the meditation very self-aware like oh meditation very self-aware like oh meditation very self-aware like oh there's my thought about that again there's my thought about that again there's my thought about that again there's my thought about that again and there's my thought about that again and there's my thought about that again and working perhaps on not judging it working perhaps on not judging it working perhaps on not judging it could be beneficial but perhaps what could be beneficial but perhaps what could be beneficial but perhaps what that person quote unquote needs or would that person quote unquote needs or would that person quote unquote needs or would benefit from was just being in a state benefit from was just being in a state benefit from was just being in a state of of a freedom from their of of a freedom from their of of a freedom from their selfmonitoring whereas the other person selfmonitoring whereas the other person selfmonitoring whereas the other person perhaps could uh you know things perhaps could uh you know things perhaps could uh you know things clinician here could afford to be a clinician here could afford to be a clinician here could afford to be a little more self-aware and realize oh little more self-aware and realize oh little more self-aware and realize oh you know I'm in this mode where and see you know I'm in this mode where and see you know I'm in this mode where and see their thinking a little bit their thinking a little bit their thinking a little bit >> totally and and you're naming something >> totally and and you're naming something >> totally and and you're naming something super important uh and you know I think super important uh and you know I think super important uh and you know I think that the way you characterize the the that the way you characterize the the that the way you characterize the the second person who is more self-aware second person who is more self-aware second person who is more self-aware uh it's um there's more than just uh it's um there's more than just uh it's um there's more than just self-awareeness awareness in your self-awareeness awareness in your self-awareeness awareness in your description. There's a kind of holding description. There's a kind of holding description. There's a kind of holding back. Uh there uh it's not just back. Uh there uh it's not just back. Uh there uh it's not just monitoring, but there's a kind of monitoring, but there's a kind of monitoring, but there's a kind of suppression almost. suppression almost. suppression almost. >> It's a lot of work. >> It's a lot of work. >> It's a lot of work. >> It's a lot of work. >> It's a lot of work. >> It's a lot of work. >> And it's kind and it could be stifling >> And it's kind and it could be stifling >> And it's kind and it could be stifling for their creativity. Absolutely. for their creativity. Absolutely. for their creativity. Absolutely. >> We had my friend David Cho on the >> We had my friend David Cho on the >> We had my friend David Cho on the podcast. Now we're friends. That was podcast. Now we're friends. That was podcast. Now we're friends. That was actually the first time we had met, but actually the first time we had met, but actually the first time we had met, but we become good friends. And he's a we become good friends. And he's a we become good friends. And he's a brilliant artist. Brilliant artist. and brilliant artist. Brilliant artist. and brilliant artist. Brilliant artist. and he talks about how the best art comes he talks about how the best art comes he talks about how the best art comes from just forgetting what anyone thinks from just forgetting what anyone thinks from just forgetting what anyone thinks or wants. Um, you know, Rick Rubin talks or wants. Um, you know, Rick Rubin talks or wants. Um, you know, Rick Rubin talks about this, just getting the audience about this, just getting the audience about this, just getting the audience out of your mind and just letting it out of your mind and just letting it out of your mind and just letting it flow through you. flow through you. flow through you. >> And I think great artists do that and >> And I think great artists do that and >> And I think great artists do that and it's what we pay money to see. We want it's what we pay money to see. We want it's what we pay money to see. We want to see that form of expression. to see that form of expression. to see that form of expression. >> We don't want to see the self-monitoring >> We don't want to see the self-monitoring >> We don't want to see the self-monitoring artist. artist. artist. >> Yeah, that's great. Um, and I I totally >> Yeah, that's great. Um, and I I totally >> Yeah, that's great. Um, and I I totally resonate with that. And there is a um a resonate with that. And there is a um a resonate with that. And there is a um a phrase in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition phrase in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition phrase in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition um uh that is called undistracted um uh that is called undistracted um uh that is called undistracted non-meditation. >> Undistracted non-meditation. And that's >> Undistracted non-meditation. And that's said to be the highest form of said to be the highest form of said to be the highest form of meditation where you just drop all the meditation where you just drop all the meditation where you just drop all the crap, crap, crap, >> you know, all the the you know, all the >> you know, all the the you know, all the >> you know, all the the you know, all the techniques, all the control, all the techniques, all the control, all the techniques, all the control, all the tightness. tightness. tightness. >> This is my goal in life. Watch out folks >> This is my goal in life. Watch out folks >> This is my goal in life. Watch out folks if this ever happens. if this ever happens. if this ever happens. >> But you're totally awake. You're you're >> But you're totally awake. You're you're >> But you're totally awake. You're you're fully aware. fully aware. fully aware. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh but there's no artifice. There's no >> Uh but there's no artifice. There's no >> Uh but there's no artifice. There's no um uh it's just complete freedom. um uh it's just complete freedom. um uh it's just complete freedom. >> Uh and and there are, you know, I think >> Uh and and there are, you know, I think >> Uh and and there are, you know, I think there I I've had the um uh the honor of there I I've had the um uh the honor of there I I've had the um uh the honor of just hanging out with some people who I just hanging out with some people who I just hanging out with some people who I think are really in that as a trait. Um think are really in that as a trait. Um think are really in that as a trait. Um that that's who they are. Rick Rubin's that that's who they are. Rick Rubin's that that's who they are. Rick Rubin's like that. He's a close friend and I can like that. He's a close friend and I can like that. He's a close friend and I can tell you I've spent a lot of time with tell you I've spent a lot of time with tell you I've spent a lot of time with Rick and how he appears to people and Rick and how he appears to people and Rick and how he appears to people and his kind of mythical status. I think a his kind of mythical status. I think a his kind of mythical status. I think a lot of people his magneticism lot of people his magneticism lot of people his magneticism is because that's real. is because that's real. is because that's real. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> He can be in very very close proximity >> He can be in very very close proximity >> He can be in very very close proximity to things online, in person. He can see to things online, in person. He can see to things online, in person. He can see all of it. He's in real touch with it, all of it. He's in real touch with it, all of it. He's in real touch with it, but he's still him. somehow it doesn't but he's still him. somehow it doesn't but he's still him. somehow it doesn't invade him in a way that changes the way invade him in a way that changes the way invade him in a way that changes the way he shows up. He, you know, like if if we he shows up. He, you know, like if if we he shows up. He, you know, like if if we were to paint little uh beams of energy, were to paint little uh beams of energy, were to paint little uh beams of energy, now we're really sounding woo coming out now we're really sounding woo coming out now we're really sounding woo coming out of there's stuff coming out, there's of there's stuff coming out, there's of there's stuff coming out, there's stuff going in stuff going in stuff going in >> and they're interacting but they're not >> and they're interacting but they're not >> and they're interacting but they're not contaminating one another where they contaminating one another where they contaminating one another where they interact. It just makes both things interact. It just makes both things interact. It just makes both things better. Yeah. better. Yeah. better. Yeah. >> And that's a very very rare trait. >> And that's a very very rare trait. >> And that's a very very rare trait. >> Yeah, I agree. You know, there's a term >> Yeah, I agree. You know, there's a term >> Yeah, I agree. You know, there's a term that I often use which, you know, I can that I often use which, you know, I can that I often use which, you know, I can talk about how we can define this more talk about how we can define this more talk about how we can define this more technically, but for lack of a better technically, but for lack of a better technically, but for lack of a better word, I call stickiness. And it's kind word, I call stickiness. And it's kind word, I call stickiness. And it's kind of a an affective hysteresis, if you of a an affective hysteresis, if you of a an affective hysteresis, if you will. It's um it's kind of where, you will. It's um it's kind of where, you will. It's um it's kind of where, you know, you're hanging on to emotions that know, you're hanging on to emotions that know, you're hanging on to emotions that um that may not be useful. you're um that may not be useful. you're um that may not be useful. you're carrying stuff from a previous carrying stuff from a previous carrying stuff from a previous experience into a current experience and experience into a current experience and experience into a current experience and it muddles things. Uh, and you know the it muddles things. Uh, and you know the it muddles things. Uh, and you know the the our emotional lives are so infused the our emotional lives are so infused the our emotional lives are so infused with this kind of stickiness. But with with this kind of stickiness. But with with this kind of stickiness. But with like like with Rick Rubin uh or with like like with Rick Rubin uh or with like like with Rick Rubin uh or with other people who are showing this other people who are showing this other people who are showing this they're there there's no stickiness. they're there there's no stickiness. they're there there's no stickiness. >> Uh there's no stickiness. uh and you >> Uh there's no stickiness. uh and you >> Uh there's no stickiness. uh and you know that's a kind of um uh of freedom know that's a kind of um uh of freedom know that's a kind of um uh of freedom that uh I think is very much what we're that uh I think is very much what we're that uh I think is very much what we're talking about as the um trait talking about as the um trait talking about as the um trait manifestation of um these kinds of manifestation of um these kinds of manifestation of um these kinds of practices. practices. practices. >> Yeah, it's interesting. I think a lot of >> Yeah, it's interesting. I think a lot of >> Yeah, it's interesting. I think a lot of people mistakenly use drugs to try and people mistakenly use drugs to try and people mistakenly use drugs to try and access that state. And I also think that access that state. And I also think that access that state. And I also think that we have a real um as a species, as a we have a real um as a species, as a we have a real um as a species, as a culture, but also as a species, we have culture, but also as a species, we have culture, but also as a species, we have a real affinity to people who can um a real affinity to people who can um a real affinity to people who can um embody embody embody this uh freedom that you're talking this uh freedom that you're talking this uh freedom that you're talking about. Great comedians. Like when about. Great comedians. Like when about. Great comedians. Like when Richard Prior was on, you're just like I Richard Prior was on, you're just like I Richard Prior was on, you're just like I mean you maybe he had a a subscript in mean you maybe he had a a subscript in mean you maybe he had a a subscript in there. Maybe he was devoting like 2% of there. Maybe he was devoting like 2% of there. Maybe he was devoting like 2% of his prefrontal cortex to monitoring, but his prefrontal cortex to monitoring, but his prefrontal cortex to monitoring, but it just seemed like we call it flow, but it just seemed like we call it flow, but it just seemed like we call it flow, but >> we're in their flow, they're in ours, >> we're in their flow, they're in ours, >> we're in their flow, they're in ours, whatever it is. There's a there's a whatever it is. There's a there's a whatever it is. There's a there's a powerful interaction there that there powerful interaction there that there powerful interaction there that there seems to be very little self-monitoring. seems to be very little self-monitoring. seems to be very little self-monitoring. Um, then there are a few other I mean I Um, then there are a few other I mean I Um, then there are a few other I mean I we see it in athletics. we see it in athletics. we see it in athletics. >> Yeah, totally. >> Yeah, totally. >> Yeah, totally. >> We we just see it. We can feel it and >> We we just see it. We can feel it and >> We we just see it. We can feel it and it's super powerful. it's super powerful. it's super powerful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that's from the perspective of, you >> And that's from the perspective of, you >> And that's from the perspective of, you know, performing arts or comedic arts. know, performing arts or comedic arts. know, performing arts or comedic arts. But for people who want to approach But for people who want to approach But for people who want to approach meditation, would it do you think it's meditation, would it do you think it's meditation, would it do you think it's useful at all to ask themselves useful at all to ask themselves useful at all to ask themselves um before they go into the meditation, um before they go into the meditation, um before they go into the meditation, you know, are they in a are they in a you know, are they in a are they in a you know, are they in a are they in a mode of self-monitoring or are they in a mode of self-monitoring or are they in a mode of self-monitoring or are they in a kind of or are they more feeling more kind of or are they more feeling more kind of or are they more feeling more free, more present to just whatever free, more present to just whatever free, more present to just whatever they're it is they're experiencing it they're it is they're experiencing it they're it is they're experiencing it experiencing, not questioning it. Yeah. experiencing, not questioning it. Yeah. experiencing, not questioning it. Yeah. and asking them for and asking them for and asking them for >> do you think it's useful in order to get >> do you think it's useful in order to get >> do you think it's useful in order to get the most out of a meditation practice? I the most out of a meditation practice? I the most out of a meditation practice? I guess what I'm getting at indirectly guess what I'm getting at indirectly guess what I'm getting at indirectly here is here is here is >> most meditation practices involve >> most meditation practices involve >> most meditation practices involve shifting from doing one thing to maybe shifting from doing one thing to maybe shifting from doing one thing to maybe you're walking, maybe you're you're open you're walking, maybe you're you're open you're walking, maybe you're you're open eyes, but typically I think people eyes, but typically I think people eyes, but typically I think people either sit or lie down, close eyes and either sit or lie down, close eyes and either sit or lie down, close eyes and start focusing on their breathing and start focusing on their breathing and start focusing on their breathing and try and quote unquote get present. try and quote unquote get present. try and quote unquote get present. >> Is there anything? >> Is there anything? >> Is there anything? >> Well, the kind of practice that I most >> Well, the kind of practice that I most >> Well, the kind of practice that I most often do is actually with eyes open, but often do is actually with eyes open, but often do is actually with eyes open, but >> really Yeah. >> really Yeah. >> really Yeah. >> Oh, well then just tell us about that. >> Oh, well then just tell us about that. >> Oh, well then just tell us about that. What what would be a good um uh let's What what would be a good um uh let's What what would be a good um uh let's use the parallel to cardio again. I I use the parallel to cardio again. I I use the parallel to cardio again. I I would say if somebody is really out of would say if somebody is really out of would say if somebody is really out of shape and wants to get in shape, I would shape and wants to get in shape, I would shape and wants to get in shape, I would say the first thing is take two say the first thing is take two say the first thing is take two 20-minute walks a day 20-minute walks a day 20-minute walks a day >> and then we could talk about getting on >> and then we could talk about getting on >> and then we could talk about getting on a exercise bike and then maybe doing a exercise bike and then maybe doing a exercise bike and then maybe doing some resistance. You'd start layering some resistance. You'd start layering some resistance. You'd start layering things in, right? But what would be the things in, right? But what would be the things in, right? But what would be the equivalent of the two 20-minute walks a equivalent of the two 20-minute walks a equivalent of the two 20-minute walks a day for meditation? day for meditation? day for meditation? >> So this is the protocol question. I >> So this is the protocol question. I >> So this is the protocol question. I guess it's you know I would say it's guess it's you know I would say it's guess it's you know I would say it's really important to start modestly and really important to start modestly and really important to start modestly and we often will ask a person what's the we often will ask a person what's the we often will ask a person what's the minimum amount of meditation that you minimum amount of meditation that you minimum amount of meditation that you think you can commit to every single day think you can commit to every single day think you can commit to every single day and do it for 30 days consistently and do it for 30 days consistently and do it for 30 days consistently >> five minutes perfect whatever that >> five minutes perfect whatever that >> five minutes perfect whatever that number is perfect start with that and uh number is perfect start with that and uh number is perfect start with that and uh and then the next question is are you and then the next question is are you and then the next question is are you comfortable doing it formally as a comfortable doing it formally as a comfortable doing it formally as a seated practice ractice or would you seated practice ractice or would you seated practice ractice or would you prefer to do it while you're walking or prefer to do it while you're walking or prefer to do it while you're walking or while you're doing another while you're doing another while you're doing another non-cognitively demanding activity? It non-cognitively demanding activity? It non-cognitively demanding activity? It could be commuting. Uh it could be could be commuting. Uh it could be could be commuting. Uh it could be washing the dishes. Um there are lots of washing the dishes. Um there are lots of washing the dishes. Um there are lots of those kind of activities that we often those kind of activities that we often those kind of activities that we often do on a daily basis that uh you can do on a daily basis that uh you can do on a daily basis that uh you can actually intentionally use your mind in actually intentionally use your mind in actually intentionally use your mind in this way while you're also doing those this way while you're also doing those this way while you're also doing those activities. And by the way, we've shown, activities. And by the way, we've shown, activities. And by the way, we've shown, we actually have really good data on we actually have really good data on we actually have really good data on this, that at least for beginning this, that at least for beginning this, that at least for beginning meditators, meditators, meditators, it doesn't matter if you're doing it as it doesn't matter if you're doing it as it doesn't matter if you're doing it as a formal meditation practice or as an a formal meditation practice or as an a formal meditation practice or as an active practice, the benefits are active practice, the benefits are active practice, the benefits are absolutely comparable. absolutely comparable. absolutely comparable. >> And what are those benefits? So if you >> And what are those benefits? So if you >> And what are those benefits? So if you do it for 30 days and you do it just do it for 30 days and you do it just do it for 30 days and you do it just five minutes a day, you will see a five minutes a day, you will see a five minutes a day, you will see a significant reduction in symptoms of significant reduction in symptoms of significant reduction in symptoms of depression, symptoms of anxiety, and depression, symptoms of anxiety, and depression, symptoms of anxiety, and symptoms of stress. We've shown that symptoms of stress. We've shown that symptoms of stress. We've shown that repeatedly in randomized control trials, repeatedly in randomized control trials, repeatedly in randomized control trials, you'll see an increase on measures of you'll see an increase on measures of you'll see an increase on measures of well-being or flourishing, and we can well-being or flourishing, and we can well-being or flourishing, and we can talk about what those actually mean. You talk about what those actually mean. You talk about what those actually mean. You can even see just with this amount of can even see just with this amount of can even see just with this amount of practice a reduction in IL6. IL6 is a practice a reduction in IL6. IL6 is a practice a reduction in IL6. IL6 is a pro-inflammatory cytoine. Uh that is pro-inflammatory cytoine. Uh that is pro-inflammatory cytoine. Uh that is important in uh systemic inflammation. important in uh systemic inflammation. important in uh systemic inflammation. Uh and with just this minimal amount of Uh and with just this minimal amount of Uh and with just this minimal amount of practice, you see a significant practice, you see a significant practice, you see a significant reduction in IL is 6 over the course of reduction in IL is 6 over the course of reduction in IL is 6 over the course of 28 days, 5 minutes a day. We've actually 28 days, 5 minutes a day. We've actually 28 days, 5 minutes a day. We've actually seen changes in the microbiome seen changes in the microbiome seen changes in the microbiome >> uh and we've seen changes in the brain. >> uh and we've seen changes in the brain. >> uh and we've seen changes in the brain. uh with just this minimal amount of uh with just this minimal amount of uh with just this minimal amount of practice. But the the important point is practice. But the the important point is practice. But the the important point is that you're doing it every day. When that you're doing it every day. When that you're doing it every day. When people ask me what's the best form of people ask me what's the best form of people ask me what's the best form of meditation that they should do if meditation that they should do if meditation that they should do if they're just beginning, I say the best they're just beginning, I say the best they're just beginning, I say the best form of meditation that you can possibly form of meditation that you can possibly form of meditation that you can possibly do is the form of meditation that you do is the form of meditation that you do is the form of meditation that you actually do. So figure out what that actually do. So figure out what that actually do. So figure out what that form of meditation is and then stick to form of meditation is and then stick to form of meditation is and then stick to it. Do it every single day. it. Do it every single day. it. Do it every single day. >> I love this. I I actually am going to >> I love this. I I actually am going to >> I love this. I I actually am going to challenge our podcast audience to five challenge our podcast audience to five challenge our podcast audience to five minutes a day for 30 days. I'll put minutes a day for 30 days. I'll put minutes a day for 30 days. I'll put something out on social media. Rob, something out on social media. Rob, something out on social media. Rob, please remind me. Um to put something please remind me. Um to put something please remind me. Um to put something out on social media to do uh 5 minutes a out on social media to do uh 5 minutes a out on social media to do uh 5 minutes a day for 30 days because what you day for 30 days because what you day for 30 days because what you describe are significant health effects. describe are significant health effects. describe are significant health effects. >> Yeah, totally. >> Yeah, totally. >> Yeah, totally. >> And and as you describe them, it made me >> And and as you describe them, it made me >> And and as you describe them, it made me remember this um set of experiments from remember this um set of experiments from remember this um set of experiments from neuroplasticity. Do you mind if I share neuroplasticity. Do you mind if I share neuroplasticity. Do you mind if I share these because I have a this is a these because I have a this is a these because I have a this is a theoretical practical question as we theoretical practical question as we theoretical practical question as we move into these protocols. But move into these protocols. But move into these protocols. But >> before we do that, what what should we >> before we do that, what what should we >> before we do that, what what should we call this protocol? It's the Richie call this protocol? It's the Richie call this protocol? It's the Richie Davidson uh Davidson uh Davidson uh >> five minutes a day. >> five minutes a day. >> five minutes a day. >> Five minutes a day. Richie's five. It's >> Five minutes a day. Richie's five. It's >> Five minutes a day. Richie's five. It's the Richie Five uh meditation. I'm going the Richie Five uh meditation. I'm going the Richie Five uh meditation. I'm going to start that. Um later I'll share what to start that. Um later I'll share what to start that. Um later I'll share what I've been doing, but it's not even that. I've been doing, but it's not even that. I've been doing, but it's not even that. I've been doing 10 breaths upon waking. I've been doing 10 breaths upon waking. I've been doing 10 breaths upon waking. 10 breaths before I get out of bed. I'm 10 breaths before I get out of bed. I'm 10 breaths before I get out of bed. I'm like, if I can just do 10 breaths of like, if I can just do 10 breaths of like, if I can just do 10 breaths of focused meditation before I get out of focused meditation before I get out of focused meditation before I get out of bed, the whole day will go better. And bed, the whole day will go better. And bed, the whole day will go better. And it and it tends to. Um, there's this it and it tends to. Um, there's this it and it tends to. Um, there's this wild set of findings in the wild set of findings in the wild set of findings in the neuroplasticity uh research that most neuroplasticity uh research that most neuroplasticity uh research that most people don't talk about because it's people don't talk about because it's people don't talk about because it's very inconvenient for neuroscientists. very inconvenient for neuroscientists. very inconvenient for neuroscientists. We're all familiar with the enriched We're all familiar with the enriched We're all familiar with the enriched environment thing where you give rats a environment thing where you give rats a environment thing where you give rats a bunch of toys or mice a bunch of toys or bunch of toys or mice a bunch of toys or bunch of toys or mice a bunch of toys or monkey monkeys a bunch of toys. And the monkey monkeys a bunch of toys. And the monkey monkeys a bunch of toys. And the idea would be if you give kids a bunch idea would be if you give kids a bunch idea would be if you give kids a bunch of toys or listening to Mozart that of toys or listening to Mozart that of toys or listening to Mozart that their brains will develop more. You see their brains will develop more. You see their brains will develop more. You see more physical connections, you see more physical connections, you see more physical connections, you see improved cognition, etc., etc. A really improved cognition, etc., etc. A really improved cognition, etc., etc. A really smart guy down at University of smart guy down at University of smart guy down at University of California, Irvine, Ron Frostig, did an California, Irvine, Ron Frostig, did an California, Irvine, Ron Frostig, did an experiment where he said, "Maybe this is experiment where he said, "Maybe this is experiment where he said, "Maybe this is all backwards. all backwards. all backwards. Maybe the normal cages they live in Maybe the normal cages they live in Maybe the normal cages they live in without all these toys are just deprived without all these toys are just deprived without all these toys are just deprived environments." environments." environments." >> And it turns out that's probably the >> And it turns out that's probably the >> And it turns out that's probably the case. Yeah. case. Yeah. case. Yeah. >> So all this enriched environment stuff, >> So all this enriched environment stuff, >> So all this enriched environment stuff, it's not that it's BS. It's just that it's not that it's BS. It's just that it's not that it's BS. It's just that the experimental conditions were so the experimental conditions were so the experimental conditions were so deprived that what you had was most deprived that what you had was most deprived that what you had was most animals just deprived in a certain way. animals just deprived in a certain way. animals just deprived in a certain way. Then you give them what they needed Then you give them what they needed Then you give them what they needed naturally and all of a sudden you saw naturally and all of a sudden you saw naturally and all of a sudden you saw more connections, etc. If we applied more connections, etc. If we applied more connections, etc. If we applied that to meditation, something that we that to meditation, something that we that to meditation, something that we think of as kind of an enriched mental think of as kind of an enriched mental think of as kind of an enriched mental environment, okay, I'm going to now do environment, okay, I'm going to now do environment, okay, I'm going to now do this exercise. I'm going to do five this exercise. I'm going to do five this exercise. I'm going to do five minutes a day or 10 or 20. We think of minutes a day or 10 or 20. We think of minutes a day or 10 or 20. We think of it as kind of adding exercise, but it as kind of adding exercise, but it as kind of adding exercise, but riding a treadmill, doing resistance riding a treadmill, doing resistance riding a treadmill, doing resistance training, I mean, we used to just farm training, I mean, we used to just farm training, I mean, we used to just farm and go get water and do things. So, in and go get water and do things. So, in and go get water and do things. So, in some sense, all of that is a replacement some sense, all of that is a replacement some sense, all of that is a replacement for a quote unquote deprived for a quote unquote deprived for a quote unquote deprived environment. environment. environment. >> Exactly. So, is it possible that what >> Exactly. So, is it possible that what >> Exactly. So, is it possible that what you're describing is not something that you're describing is not something that you're describing is not something that people developed over time, people developed over time, people developed over time, um, but rather something that was core um, but rather something that was core um, but rather something that was core to our experience as humans and that the to our experience as humans and that the to our experience as humans and that the brain needed, but that with the advent brain needed, but that with the advent brain needed, but that with the advent of technologies and busyiness or of technologies and busyiness or of technologies and busyiness or whatever, we've gotten away from. And so whatever, we've gotten away from. And so whatever, we've gotten away from. And so when you talk about doing five or 10 or when you talk about doing five or 10 or when you talk about doing five or 10 or 20 minutes of meditation a day and 20 minutes of meditation a day and 20 minutes of meditation a day and seeing all these health effects, what seeing all these health effects, what seeing all these health effects, what we're doing is we're actually just we're doing is we're actually just we're doing is we're actually just putting back what needed to be there in putting back what needed to be there in putting back what needed to be there in the first place, this is like the the first place, this is like the the first place, this is like the equivalent of you getting your 30 equivalent of you getting your 30 equivalent of you getting your 30 minutes more sleep because alarm clocks minutes more sleep because alarm clocks minutes more sleep because alarm clocks weren't really a thing weren't really a thing weren't really a thing >> 2,000 years ago. Does that make sense? >> 2,000 years ago. Does that make sense? >> 2,000 years ago. Does that make sense? >> It makes sense, but um you know and I >> It makes sense, but um you know and I >> It makes sense, but um you know and I think that there's an element of truth think that there's an element of truth think that there's an element of truth to it, but I also think that there's uh to it, but I also think that there's uh to it, but I also think that there's uh some additional um discussion that we some additional um discussion that we some additional um discussion that we should have about it and and and should have about it and and and should have about it and and and dialogue. So um first of all uh uh these dialogue. So um first of all uh uh these dialogue. So um first of all uh uh these practices have been around for you know practices have been around for you know practices have been around for you know 2500 years or more. Um it's not like 2500 years or more. Um it's not like 2500 years or more. Um it's not like they've been invented in the modern era they've been invented in the modern era they've been invented in the modern era to deal with the uh uh the separation to deal with the uh uh the separation to deal with the uh uh the separation that has occurred between humans and the that has occurred between humans and the that has occurred between humans and the natural world that is a distinctly natural world that is a distinctly natural world that is a distinctly modern uh kind of invention. So that's modern uh kind of invention. So that's modern uh kind of invention. So that's one thing. The second thing is that yes, one thing. The second thing is that yes, one thing. The second thing is that yes, I agree with you that the I agree with you that the I agree with you that the characteristics that we're talking about characteristics that we're talking about characteristics that we're talking about as um traits that are outcomes of these as um traits that are outcomes of these as um traits that are outcomes of these practices, there are many ways to get practices, there are many ways to get practices, there are many ways to get there and there are probably natural there and there are probably natural there and there are probably natural ways to get there that don't require ways to get there that don't require ways to get there that don't require meditation. In fact, you know, when we meditation. In fact, you know, when we meditation. In fact, you know, when we in our early days, we interviewed these in our early days, we interviewed these in our early days, we interviewed these practitioners around Dharmala, India, practitioners around Dharmala, India, practitioners around Dharmala, India, who were um practitioners that the Daly who were um practitioners that the Daly who were um practitioners that the Daly Lama referred us to who are spending 30 Lama referred us to who are spending 30 Lama referred us to who are spending 30 years in retreat um in they're called years in retreat um in they're called years in retreat um in they're called hermit monks and you know they're you hermit monks and you know they're you hermit monks and you know they're you you have to hike for three hours to find you have to hike for three hours to find you have to hike for three hours to find their cave. Uh and we interviewed these their cave. Uh and we interviewed these their cave. Uh and we interviewed these these people. you know, they they told these people. you know, they they told these people. you know, they they told us, well, you know, I need to meditate, us, well, you know, I need to meditate, us, well, you know, I need to meditate, but many others are just born or they're but many others are just born or they're but many others are just born or they're just naturally um uh have these just naturally um uh have these just naturally um uh have these qualities. They don't need to meditate qualities. They don't need to meditate qualities. They don't need to meditate as much as me. I'm just a simple, you as much as me. I'm just a simple, you as much as me. I'm just a simple, you know, um poor monk who really needs to know, um poor monk who really needs to know, um poor monk who really needs to do this because I'm inferior to those do this because I'm inferior to those do this because I'm inferior to those people, if you will. Um and it's kind of people, if you will. Um and it's kind of people, if you will. Um and it's kind of modesty, but also, you know, there may modesty, but also, you know, there may modesty, but also, you know, there may be some truth to that. uh uh and so I be some truth to that. uh uh and so I be some truth to that. uh uh and so I think that that is is real but I also think that that is is real but I also think that that is is real but I also think that the qualities like for think that the qualities like for think that the qualities like for example kindness I believe and this is example kindness I believe and this is example kindness I believe and this is the subject of this new book that I the subject of this new book that I the subject of this new book that I wrote with my colleague Kland Doll born wrote with my colleague Kland Doll born wrote with my colleague Kland Doll born to flourish qualities like kindness are to flourish qualities like kindness are to flourish qualities like kindness are innate um they are part of our innate innate um they are part of our innate innate um they are part of our innate repertoire but in order for them to be repertoire but in order for them to be repertoire but in order for them to be expressed they require nurturing and expressed they require nurturing and expressed they require nurturing and it's very similar to the way scientists it's very similar to the way scientists it's very similar to the way scientists talk about language talk about language talk about language Language is innate. I think most Language is innate. I think most Language is innate. I think most scientists would agree with that. But we scientists would agree with that. But we scientists would agree with that. But we know that there have been case studies, know that there have been case studies, know that there have been case studies, for example, of feral children who are for example, of feral children who are for example, of feral children who are raised in the wild and they don't raised in the wild and they don't raised in the wild and they don't develop normal language. So in order for develop normal language. So in order for develop normal language. So in order for the language to develop normally, it the language to develop normally, it the language to develop normally, it requires nurturing of some kind. Uh and requires nurturing of some kind. Uh and requires nurturing of some kind. Uh and kindness is the same thing. It requires kindness is the same thing. It requires kindness is the same thing. It requires nurturing. in order for it to be nurturing. in order for it to be nurturing. in order for it to be expressed. And similarly for other expressed. And similarly for other expressed. And similarly for other qualities that we're cultivating when we qualities that we're cultivating when we qualities that we're cultivating when we meditate, I think those qualities are meditate, I think those qualities are meditate, I think those qualities are innate, but they require nurturing. And innate, but they require nurturing. And innate, but they require nurturing. And um uh and in certain cases, I think that um uh and in certain cases, I think that um uh and in certain cases, I think that in order for those qualities to really in order for those qualities to really in order for those qualities to really be expressed at high levels, if you be expressed at high levels, if you be expressed at high levels, if you will, intentional nurturing may be will, intentional nurturing may be will, intentional nurturing may be required for at least the vast majority required for at least the vast majority required for at least the vast majority of people. There may be, you know, of people. There may be, you know, of people. There may be, you know, statistically very rare people who statistically very rare people who statistically very rare people who emerge who are like this from the start emerge who are like this from the start emerge who are like this from the start for whatever reason, but for most of us, for whatever reason, but for most of us, for whatever reason, but for most of us, I think uh this kind of nurturing is I think uh this kind of nurturing is I think uh this kind of nurturing is important. important. important. >> As many of you know, I've been taking >> As many of you know, I've been taking >> As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I discovered it way back in 2012, long discovered it way back in 2012, long discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've before I ever had a podcast, and I've before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since. 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Again, that's drink AG1 with the numeral drink AG1 with the numeral drink AG1 with the numeral one.com/huberman one.com/huberman one.com/huberman to get six free travel packs and a to get six free travel packs and a to get six free travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your subscription. Why do you think it is subscription. Why do you think it is subscription. Why do you think it is that so many people find it challenging that so many people find it challenging that so many people find it challenging to maintain a meditation practice? I to maintain a meditation practice? I to maintain a meditation practice? I mean, 5 minutes a day is nothing. 10 mean, 5 minutes a day is nothing. 10 mean, 5 minutes a day is nothing. 10 minutes a day is barely anything even minutes a day is barely anything even minutes a day is barely anything even for the very busiest of person. And the for the very busiest of person. And the for the very busiest of person. And the positive effects that you describe and positive effects that you describe and positive effects that you describe and we could also layer in reduced stress, we could also layer in reduced stress, we could also layer in reduced stress, anxiety, lower resting heart rate, anxiety, lower resting heart rate, anxiety, lower resting heart rate, increased uh you know um uh feelings of increased uh you know um uh feelings of increased uh you know um uh feelings of well-being and on and on. I mean there well-being and on and on. I mean there well-being and on and on. I mean there there are just so many great studies now there are just so many great studies now there are just so many great studies now including like you said you know double including like you said you know double including like you said you know double blind trials. I mean it's it's blind trials. I mean it's it's blind trials. I mean it's it's incredible. Um, so why do you think it's incredible. Um, so why do you think it's incredible. Um, so why do you think it's so hard for people to maintain this so hard for people to maintain this so hard for people to maintain this practice of just saying, "Okay, you know practice of just saying, "Okay, you know practice of just saying, "Okay, you know what? I'm going to just go into this what? I'm going to just go into this what? I'm going to just go into this atypical state. It's it's not being atypical state. It's it's not being atypical state. It's it's not being stimulated by anything in my stimulated by anything in my stimulated by anything in my environment. I have to do this environment. I have to do this environment. I have to do this internally. There there aren't gyms to internally. There there aren't gyms to internally. There there aren't gyms to go to for this." Although I mean there go to for this." Although I mean there go to for this." Although I mean there are things there are breath work classes are things there are breath work classes are things there are breath work classes and things like that, but people don't and things like that, but people don't and things like that, but people don't tend to stick to it. That's the tend to stick to it. That's the tend to stick to it. That's the challenge. challenge. challenge. >> So I do have a theory about it which >> So I do have a theory about it which >> So I do have a theory about it which I'll share. But before I do that, let me I'll share. But before I do that, let me I'll share. But before I do that, let me just say that um I often use the analogy just say that um I often use the analogy just say that um I often use the analogy of brushing our teeth. When when humans of brushing our teeth. When when humans of brushing our teeth. When when humans first evolved on this planet, none of us first evolved on this planet, none of us first evolved on this planet, none of us were brushing our teeth. And somehow a a were brushing our teeth. And somehow a a were brushing our teeth. And somehow a a very large swath of humanity has learned very large swath of humanity has learned very large swath of humanity has learned to brush their teeth every day. It's not to brush their teeth every day. It's not to brush their teeth every day. It's not part of our genome. part of our genome. part of our genome. >> I think most people brush their teeth so >> I think most people brush their teeth so >> I think most people brush their teeth so that their breath isn't bad. I think that their breath isn't bad. I think that their breath isn't bad. I think they like the idea that their teeth look they like the idea that their teeth look they like the idea that their teeth look cleaner and they get less um gum cleaner and they get less um gum cleaner and they get less um gum disease, etc. But all the scary stuff is disease, etc. But all the scary stuff is disease, etc. But all the scary stuff is actually very um ineffective public actually very um ineffective public actually very um ineffective public health messaging. I mean that that's my health messaging. I mean that that's my health messaging. I mean that that's my guess. guess. guess. >> Yeah. So actually that's quite >> Yeah. So actually that's quite >> Yeah. So actually that's quite interesting um that that view. But interesting um that that view. But interesting um that that view. But getting back to your question, why do getting back to your question, why do getting back to your question, why do people find it so hard? So there was a people find it so hard? So there was a people find it so hard? So there was a study published in science not too long study published in science not too long study published in science not too long ago by a group of social psychologists. ago by a group of social psychologists. ago by a group of social psychologists. Um and uh it was a study of quote Um and uh it was a study of quote Um and uh it was a study of quote boredom. Um, and what they did boredom. Um, and what they did boredom. Um, and what they did essentially in this study, the core of essentially in this study, the core of essentially in this study, the core of it was they took people into the lab and it was they took people into the lab and it was they took people into the lab and they said, um, we had a little problem they said, um, we had a little problem they said, um, we had a little problem and we're gonna you guys are going to and we're gonna you guys are going to and we're gonna you guys are going to have to wait for like 15 or 20 minutes have to wait for like 15 or 20 minutes have to wait for like 15 or 20 minutes before the experiment starts while we before the experiment starts while we before the experiment starts while we fix some piece of equipment. And they fix some piece of equipment. And they fix some piece of equipment. And they were in a waiting room. there were uh were in a waiting room. there were uh were in a waiting room. there were uh magazines and books around and they also magazines and books around and they also magazines and books around and they also said that they're they're um you know said that they're they're um you know said that they're they're um you know social psychologists are really good at social psychologists are really good at social psychologists are really good at creating these um scenarios. Uh and so creating these um scenarios. Uh and so creating these um scenarios. Uh and so uh another experimentter came in and uh another experimentter came in and uh another experimentter came in and said, you know, they're from another said, you know, they're from another said, you know, they're from another research group and they understand that research group and they understand that research group and they understand that they have to wait a little while and we they have to wait a little while and we they have to wait a little while and we have another experiment that you can do have another experiment that you can do have another experiment that you can do in the meantime and it involves um in the meantime and it involves um in the meantime and it involves um receiving electric shocks. Um and of receiving electric shocks. Um and of receiving electric shocks. Um and of course it's completely voluntary. You course it's completely voluntary. You course it's completely voluntary. You are free to participate or not. And the are free to participate or not. And the are free to participate or not. And the bottom line is that this is particularly bottom line is that this is particularly bottom line is that this is particularly male male male undergraduates in the United States undergraduates in the United States undergraduates in the United States prefer to shock themselves than to sit prefer to shock themselves than to sit prefer to shock themselves than to sit alone and not do anything. It's a robust alone and not do anything. It's a robust alone and not do anything. It's a robust finding. People could not sit without finding. People could not sit without finding. People could not sit without doing something is the bottom line. And doing something is the bottom line. And doing something is the bottom line. And the reason I think is that once we the reason I think is that once we the reason I think is that once we actually begin to inspect our own minds, actually begin to inspect our own minds, actually begin to inspect our own minds, most people are frightened at the chaos most people are frightened at the chaos most people are frightened at the chaos that they see. One of the things we that they see. One of the things we that they see. One of the things we found when we look at a very in a very found when we look at a very in a very found when we look at a very in a very granular way is that when people start granular way is that when people start granular way is that when people start to meditate, to meditate, to meditate, we see a statistically reliable increase we see a statistically reliable increase we see a statistically reliable increase in anxiety in the first week. in anxiety in the first week. in anxiety in the first week. interesting. And that's often when interesting. And that's often when interesting. And that's often when people say, "I can't do this. It's people say, "I can't do this. It's people say, "I can't do this. It's making me crazy." Um, and you know what making me crazy." Um, and you know what making me crazy." Um, and you know what we tell them is that's exactly you're we tell them is that's exactly you're we tell them is that's exactly you're doing exactly the right thing. You're, doing exactly the right thing. You're, doing exactly the right thing. You're, you know, you're noticing the chaos in you know, you're noticing the chaos in you know, you're noticing the chaos in your own mind. your own mind. your own mind. >> This is the soreness that comes from a >> This is the soreness that comes from a >> This is the soreness that comes from a new exercise program. new exercise program. new exercise program. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> But people know to associate the >> But people know to associate the >> But people know to associate the soreness with, okay, the exercise was soreness with, okay, the exercise was soreness with, okay, the exercise was effective. It's going to lead to an effective. It's going to lead to an effective. It's going to lead to an adaptation. And we haven't changed the adaptation. And we haven't changed the adaptation. And we haven't changed the the narrative yet about this, but what the narrative yet about this, but what the narrative yet about this, but what we're trying to where we say it this is we're trying to where we say it this is we're trying to where we say it this is great that you're feeling anxious. It's great that you're feeling anxious. It's great that you're feeling anxious. It's exactly what you should be feeling. exactly what you should be feeling. exactly what you should be feeling. Forgive me, I'm I'm doing all this in Forgive me, I'm I'm doing all this in Forgive me, I'm I'm doing all this in real time, so if I if I'm slow, um real time, so if I if I'm slow, um real time, so if I if I'm slow, um there's a reason. there's a reason. there's a reason. The analogy to exercise feels ever more The analogy to exercise feels ever more The analogy to exercise feels ever more important now because thankfully the important now because thankfully the important now because thankfully the narrative has been embedded in people's narrative has been embedded in people's narrative has been embedded in people's minds that you lift objects or you cycle minds that you lift objects or you cycle minds that you lift objects or you cycle or run or row or swim etc to stimulate or run or row or swim etc to stimulate or run or row or swim etc to stimulate an adaptation. I think that the exercise an adaptation. I think that the exercise an adaptation. I think that the exercise scientists, the fields of health and scientists, the fields of health and scientists, the fields of health and wellness, whatever it is, has been very wellness, whatever it is, has been very wellness, whatever it is, has been very effective in getting the message out effective in getting the message out effective in getting the message out that the the burn in your muscles that the the burn in your muscles that the the burn in your muscles is the thing that's going to lead to an is the thing that's going to lead to an is the thing that's going to lead to an easier run the next time, to more easier run the next time, to more easier run the next time, to more fitness, more longevity, more fitness, more longevity, more fitness, more longevity, more well-being, etc. well-being, etc. well-being, etc. >> But it's discomfort in the moment. For a >> But it's discomfort in the moment. For a >> But it's discomfort in the moment. For a long while now, I've been trying to long while now, I've been trying to long while now, I've been trying to convince people, because it's true, that convince people, because it's true, that convince people, because it's true, that the agitation that one feels trying to the agitation that one feels trying to the agitation that one feels trying to solve a problem or read a hard uh page solve a problem or read a hard uh page solve a problem or read a hard uh page or passage in a book, the one that you or passage in a book, the one that you or passage in a book, the one that you have to return to three times that you have to return to three times that you have to return to three times that you can't wrap your head around, that that can't wrap your head around, that that can't wrap your head around, that that agitation is the stimulus for agitation is the stimulus for agitation is the stimulus for neuroplasticity. If you could just neuroplasticity. If you could just neuroplasticity. If you could just breeze right through it, the brain has breeze right through it, the brain has breeze right through it, the brain has no reason to change. It's not stimulated no reason to change. It's not stimulated no reason to change. It's not stimulated to change. to change. to change. >> It can, after all, just do the thing >> It can, after all, just do the thing >> It can, after all, just do the thing you're trying to do. So it becomes sort you're trying to do. So it becomes sort you're trying to do. So it becomes sort of a duh when you compare when you look of a duh when you compare when you look of a duh when you compare when you look at exercise or you look at um cognitive at exercise or you look at um cognitive at exercise or you look at um cognitive development but somehow when it comes to development but somehow when it comes to development but somehow when it comes to meditation maybe we can accomplish this meditation maybe we can accomplish this meditation maybe we can accomplish this today I think you're doing this for us today I think you're doing this for us today I think you're doing this for us just knowing for me just knowing that in just knowing for me just knowing that in just knowing for me just knowing that in the first week anxiety is going to go up the first week anxiety is going to go up the first week anxiety is going to go up but that's the equivalent of lactate but that's the equivalent of lactate but that's the equivalent of lactate accumulating in the muscles of of um accumulating in the muscles of of um accumulating in the muscles of of um >> it's the lactate of the mind >> it's the lactate of the mind >> it's the lactate of the mind >> the burn it's the lactate of the mind >> the burn it's the lactate of the mind >> the burn it's the lactate of the mind >> thank you >> thank you >> thank you >> yes >> yes >> yes >> thank Thank you. Um, perfect. >> thank Thank you. Um, perfect. >> thank Thank you. Um, perfect. I believe that languaging and messaging I believe that languaging and messaging I believe that languaging and messaging is so critical to get people to adopt is so critical to get people to adopt is so critical to get people to adopt practices that require this discomfort practices that require this discomfort practices that require this discomfort adaptation loop that needs to be adaptation loop that needs to be adaptation loop that needs to be repeated over time. repeated over time. repeated over time. >> I love that. >> I love that. >> I love that. >> I kn I knew we'd get someplace in that >> I kn I knew we'd get someplace in that >> I kn I knew we'd get someplace in that in that one. Thanks to you. So glad in that one. Thanks to you. So glad in that one. Thanks to you. So glad you're here. So, week one, five minutes you're here. So, week one, five minutes you're here. So, week one, five minutes a day, expect and embrace the anxiety. a day, expect and embrace the anxiety. a day, expect and embrace the anxiety. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Is it the thing that's going to produce >> Is it the thing that's going to produce >> Is it the thing that's going to produce the adaptation? the adaptation? the adaptation? >> I think it's contributing to it. Yes. Uh >> I think it's contributing to it. Yes. Uh >> I think it's contributing to it. Yes. Uh and and you know, it's also being aware and and you know, it's also being aware and and you know, it's also being aware of the anxiety without being hijacked by of the anxiety without being hijacked by of the anxiety without being hijacked by the anxiety, without being lost in the the anxiety, without being lost in the the anxiety, without being lost in the anxiety. So being able to see the anxiety. So being able to see the anxiety. So being able to see the anxiety anxiety anxiety um as it's arising. um as it's arising. um as it's arising. Uh and that's um you know this is Uh and that's um you know this is Uh and that's um you know this is training in meta awareness. uh meta training in meta awareness. uh meta training in meta awareness. uh meta awareness is super important. I actually awareness is super important. I actually awareness is super important. I actually think metawareness is a necessary think metawareness is a necessary think metawareness is a necessary prerequisite for any kind of human prerequisite for any kind of human prerequisite for any kind of human transformation, mental transformation. transformation, mental transformation. transformation, mental transformation. >> Um could you define it for us? Tell us a >> Um could you define it for us? Tell us a >> Um could you define it for us? Tell us a bit more about it. I'm very curious. bit more about it. I'm very curious. bit more about it. I'm very curious. >> Yeah. So I would say metawareness is the >> Yeah. So I would say metawareness is the >> Yeah. So I would say metawareness is the faculty of knowing what our minds are faculty of knowing what our minds are faculty of knowing what our minds are doing. And to some listeners that may doing. And to some listeners that may doing. And to some listeners that may sound a little strange, but how many of sound a little strange, but how many of sound a little strange, but how many of you have had the experience of reading a you have had the experience of reading a you have had the experience of reading a book where you might be reading each book where you might be reading each book where you might be reading each word on a page and you read one page, a word on a page and you read one page, a word on a page and you read one page, a second page, and after a few minutes you second page, and after a few minutes you second page, and after a few minutes you have no idea what you've just read. Your have no idea what you've just read. Your have no idea what you've just read. Your mind is lost. It's somewhere else. But mind is lost. It's somewhere else. But mind is lost. It's somewhere else. But then you wake up. The moment you wake up then you wake up. The moment you wake up then you wake up. The moment you wake up is a moment of metawareness. is a moment of metawareness. is a moment of metawareness. And it turns out that that's a trainable And it turns out that that's a trainable And it turns out that that's a trainable skill. And that is one of the really important And that is one of the really important prerequisites prerequisites prerequisites um for all other forms of training of um for all other forms of training of um for all other forms of training of mental training. mental training. mental training. >> Do we know where this meta awareness >> Do we know where this meta awareness >> Do we know where this meta awareness resides in the brain? Is it preffrontal resides in the brain? Is it preffrontal resides in the brain? Is it preffrontal cortex? cortex? cortex? >> You know, it's a network of uh >> You know, it's a network of uh >> You know, it's a network of uh prefrontal cortex, anterior singulate, prefrontal cortex, anterior singulate, prefrontal cortex, anterior singulate, um insula. um insula. um insula. uh uh I think those are all structures uh uh I think those are all structures uh uh I think those are all structures that are participating in meta that are participating in meta that are participating in meta awareness. awareness. awareness. >> It's interesting because I feel like as >> It's interesting because I feel like as >> It's interesting because I feel like as we were discussing earlier, people crave we were discussing earlier, people crave we were discussing earlier, people crave forgetting about themselves and just forgetting about themselves and just forgetting about themselves and just being in experience. It's just such a being in experience. It's just such a being in experience. It's just such a powerfully and I think positive powerfully and I think positive powerfully and I think positive seductive thing. I often think about, seductive thing. I often think about, seductive thing. I often think about, you know, like at a party dancing like you know, like at a party dancing like you know, like at a party dancing like it like people who can just dance and it like people who can just dance and it like people who can just dance and enjoy themselves versus people who are enjoy themselves versus people who are enjoy themselves versus people who are self-conscious about how they're self-conscious about how they're self-conscious about how they're dancing. Even people who are good at dancing. Even people who are good at dancing. Even people who are good at dancing, you can be metaware without dancing, you can be metaware without dancing, you can be metaware without being awkwardly self-conscious, if you being awkwardly self-conscious, if you being awkwardly self-conscious, if you will. So, um, you know, you talked will. So, um, you know, you talked will. So, um, you know, you talked earlier about flow. Uh, I didn't jump in earlier about flow. Uh, I didn't jump in earlier about flow. Uh, I didn't jump in then, but flow can occur with or without then, but flow can occur with or without then, but flow can occur with or without meta awareness. meta awareness. meta awareness. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. A lot of flow I think occurs without A lot of flow I think occurs without A lot of flow I think occurs without metawareness. So you know Chickix Mahai metawareness. So you know Chickix Mahai metawareness. So you know Chickix Mahai who first studied flow he studied rock who first studied flow he studied rock who first studied flow he studied rock climbers and like a rock climber who is climbers and like a rock climber who is climbers and like a rock climber who is I mean think about this why do people do I mean think about this why do people do I mean think about this why do people do stuff like rock climbing. I think that stuff like rock climbing. I think that stuff like rock climbing. I think that the reason why people do stuff like that the reason why people do stuff like that the reason why people do stuff like that is to produce this state of flow where is to produce this state of flow where is to produce this state of flow where um most of those kinds of states of flow um most of those kinds of states of flow um most of those kinds of states of flow I think are states of flow without I think are states of flow without I think are states of flow without metawareness where you're completely metawareness where you're completely metawareness where you're completely absorbed in the activity and for a rock absorbed in the activity and for a rock absorbed in the activity and for a rock climber if there's even a momentary climber if there's even a momentary climber if there's even a momentary lapse in attention it could be lapse in attention it could be lapse in attention it could be potentially lethal. uh and so by potentially lethal. uh and so by potentially lethal. uh and so by arranging one's physical environment in arranging one's physical environment in arranging one's physical environment in that way you are um basically forcing uh that way you are um basically forcing uh that way you are um basically forcing uh the default mode to be suppressed. the default mode to be suppressed. the default mode to be suppressed. >> Uh and the default mode is a mode that >> Uh and the default mode is a mode that >> Uh and the default mode is a mode that we know is associated with a lot of we know is associated with a lot of we know is associated with a lot of self-reerential thought and self-reerential thought and self-reerential thought and self-reerential thought often is self-reerential thought often is self-reerential thought often is anxietyprovoking. anxietyprovoking. anxietyprovoking. uh and so this is a way to transiently uh and so this is a way to transiently uh and so this is a way to transiently suppress the default mode but flow can suppress the default mode but flow can suppress the default mode but flow can also occur with meta awareness also occur with meta awareness also occur with meta awareness uh and so and it doesn't diminish the uh and so and it doesn't diminish the uh and so and it doesn't diminish the quality of the flow and one analogy that quality of the flow and one analogy that quality of the flow and one analogy that we can use is in a movie theater I mean we can use is in a movie theater I mean we can use is in a movie theater I mean viewers have had the experience of being viewers have had the experience of being viewers have had the experience of being in a movie theater and I'm sure people in a movie theater and I'm sure people in a movie theater and I'm sure people have had the experience of being in a have had the experience of being in a have had the experience of being in a movie theater where you're so engrossed movie theater where you're so engrossed movie theater where you're so engrossed in the movie that you may actually in the movie that you may actually in the movie that you may actually you're not aware that you're in a you're not aware that you're in a you're not aware that you're in a theater and you may not be even aware theater and you may not be even aware theater and you may not be even aware that you're watching a movie. You're so that you're watching a movie. You're so that you're watching a movie. You're so you are totally absorbed in the plot and you are totally absorbed in the plot and you are totally absorbed in the plot and we've actually come up with a term to we've actually come up with a term to we've actually come up with a term to define that and we call it experiential define that and we call it experiential define that and we call it experiential fusion fusion fusion where you're fused with the experience where you're fused with the experience where you're fused with the experience and that is a kind of the the analogous and that is a kind of the the analogous and that is a kind of the the analogous to flow without metawareness. But to flow without metawareness. But to flow without metawareness. But imagine being in the movie theater where imagine being in the movie theater where imagine being in the movie theater where your your attention is riveted and your your attention is riveted and your your attention is riveted and there's absolutely no lapse in attention there's absolutely no lapse in attention there's absolutely no lapse in attention but in the kind of penumbra of but in the kind of penumbra of but in the kind of penumbra of awareness. You are aware you're in a awareness. You are aware you're in a awareness. You are aware you're in a movie theater. You're aware that you're movie theater. You're aware that you're movie theater. You're aware that you're watching a movie but that doesn't watching a movie but that doesn't watching a movie but that doesn't diminish the quality of your attention. diminish the quality of your attention. diminish the quality of your attention. I want to um ask about this thing about I want to um ask about this thing about I want to um ask about this thing about chaos. Noticing the chaos of one's mind chaos. Noticing the chaos of one's mind chaos. Noticing the chaos of one's mind because you said that sits at the seat because you said that sits at the seat because you said that sits at the seat of the anxiety that people will feel of the anxiety that people will feel of the anxiety that people will feel when they first start to meditate. Now when they first start to meditate. Now when they first start to meditate. Now everyone knows in the Richie meditation everyone knows in the Richie meditation everyone knows in the Richie meditation to push through the first week, expect to push through the first week, expect to push through the first week, expect the the lactate of the mind, push the the lactate of the mind, push the the lactate of the mind, push through it. I love that so much. Thank through it. I love that so much. Thank through it. I love that so much. Thank you. The idea that the mind is chaotic you. The idea that the mind is chaotic you. The idea that the mind is chaotic and getting comfortable with that and and getting comfortable with that and and getting comfortable with that and not reacting to it, not feeling like we not reacting to it, not feeling like we not reacting to it, not feeling like we have to get away from it. Um, we've have to get away from it. Um, we've have to get away from it. Um, we've heard this before, but I think it's heard this before, but I think it's heard this before, but I think it's somewhat of a novel concept to me to somewhat of a novel concept to me to somewhat of a novel concept to me to think that a goal of meditation is to be think that a goal of meditation is to be think that a goal of meditation is to be able to see that and sit with it, not able to see that and sit with it, not able to see that and sit with it, not necessarily eradicate it. You know, I necessarily eradicate it. You know, I necessarily eradicate it. You know, I think you said, you know, the Daly Lama. think you said, you know, the Daly Lama. think you said, you know, the Daly Lama. I think for most of us, we see the Daly I think for most of us, we see the Daly I think for most of us, we see the Daly Lama and other monks in robes and you Lama and other monks in robes and you Lama and other monks in robes and you say he sleeps 9 hours per night and he's say he sleeps 9 hours per night and he's say he sleeps 9 hours per night and he's meditating four hours per day and we meditating four hours per day and we meditating four hours per day and we think, oh, he looks very blissed out and think, oh, he looks very blissed out and think, oh, he looks very blissed out and that's great for them. that's great for them. that's great for them. Do you think he has chaos in his mind? Do you think he has chaos in his mind? Do you think he has chaos in his mind? is the idea that extreme meditators or is the idea that extreme meditators or is the idea that extreme meditators or even you know well practitioned even you know well practitioned even you know well practitioned meditators are free of the chaos or that meditators are free of the chaos or that meditators are free of the chaos or that they're just comfortable with the chaos. they're just comfortable with the chaos. they're just comfortable with the chaos. I would say that um it's a developmental I would say that um it's a developmental I would say that um it's a developmental process that changes longitudinally. process that changes longitudinally. process that changes longitudinally. So initially there's a lot of chaos and So initially there's a lot of chaos and So initially there's a lot of chaos and I think it gradually subsides. I don't I think it gradually subsides. I don't I think it gradually subsides. I don't think it it's like a step function. And think it it's like a step function. And think it it's like a step function. And I think it really occurs gradually over I think it really occurs gradually over I think it really occurs gradually over time and the chaos just sort of time and the chaos just sort of time and the chaos just sort of naturally diminishes. naturally diminishes. naturally diminishes. Um, but that's a long-term process. Uh, Um, but that's a long-term process. Uh, Um, but that's a long-term process. Uh, and I think for most of us, uh, there's and I think for most of us, uh, there's and I think for most of us, uh, there's always going to be some chaos. Uh, but always going to be some chaos. Uh, but always going to be some chaos. Uh, but part of the chaos also is, I think, a part of the chaos also is, I think, a part of the chaos also is, I think, a source of creativity. And you know when source of creativity. And you know when source of creativity. And you know when we talk about metaare meta awareness and we talk about metaare meta awareness and we talk about metaare meta awareness and awareness of all that's going on in our awareness of all that's going on in our awareness of all that's going on in our mind you know I often give my students mind you know I often give my students mind you know I often give my students the the permission to I even if they're the the permission to I even if they're the the permission to I even if they're not meditators to just spend a couple not meditators to just spend a couple not meditators to just spend a couple hours a week inspecting your mind. Just hours a week inspecting your mind. Just hours a week inspecting your mind. Just inspect your mind. Pay attention to inspect your mind. Pay attention to inspect your mind. Pay attention to what's going on in your mind. Don't do what's going on in your mind. Don't do what's going on in your mind. Don't do stuff outside. But a and if you come up stuff outside. But a and if you come up stuff outside. But a and if you come up with some interesting thought, write a with some interesting thought, write a with some interesting thought, write a little note to yourself as you're doing little note to yourself as you're doing little note to yourself as you're doing this, you know, not a lot of words, but this, you know, not a lot of words, but this, you know, not a lot of words, but just a note to remind you when you're just a note to remind you when you're just a note to remind you when you're finished with this session. Um, and I finished with this session. Um, and I finished with this session. Um, and I have the conviction that there's a lot have the conviction that there's a lot have the conviction that there's a lot of creative work that humans do on a of creative work that humans do on a of creative work that humans do on a regular basis that's kind of like regular basis that's kind of like regular basis that's kind of like dreams. Most people don't remember their dreams. Most people don't remember their dreams. Most people don't remember their dreams, but they occur reliably. dreams, but they occur reliably. dreams, but they occur reliably. And I think that there's a lot of And I think that there's a lot of And I think that there's a lot of creative thought that occurs on a creative thought that occurs on a creative thought that occurs on a regular basis, but we just don't pay regular basis, but we just don't pay regular basis, but we just don't pay attention to it and we we forget it just attention to it and we we forget it just attention to it and we we forget it just like we forget our dreams. like we forget our dreams. like we forget our dreams. But if we have the invitation to really But if we have the invitation to really But if we have the invitation to really inspect our mind in that way, I think um inspect our mind in that way, I think um inspect our mind in that way, I think um this chaos actually uh often contains this chaos actually uh often contains this chaos actually uh often contains the seat of real creative insight that the seat of real creative insight that the seat of real creative insight that potentially could be valuable. potentially could be valuable. potentially could be valuable. >> I do too. I I mean I wake up every >> I do too. I I mean I wake up every >> I do too. I I mean I wake up every morning with at least one idea from the morning with at least one idea from the morning with at least one idea from the transition from sleep to waking. transition from sleep to waking. transition from sleep to waking. Sometimes it's from a dream. I often Sometimes it's from a dream. I often Sometimes it's from a dream. I often will record my dreams as voice memos. will record my dreams as voice memos. will record my dreams as voice memos. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> After I die if somebody ever finds these >> After I die if somebody ever finds these >> After I die if somebody ever finds these voice me they're so crazy. Every once in voice me they're so crazy. Every once in voice me they're so crazy. Every once in a while I'll try and listen to one. I'm a while I'll try and listen to one. I'm a while I'll try and listen to one. I'm like this is crazy. But I don't want to like this is crazy. But I don't want to like this is crazy. But I don't want to forget things and sometimes I don't want forget things and sometimes I don't want forget things and sometimes I don't want to wake up and turn the lights on and to wake up and turn the lights on and to wake up and turn the lights on and I'll go back to sleep and so I'll just I'll go back to sleep and so I'll just I'll go back to sleep and so I'll just record something in the voice memo. record something in the voice memo. record something in the voice memo. Sometimes write it down. Um, I think Sometimes write it down. Um, I think Sometimes write it down. Um, I think there's so much learning to be had from there's so much learning to be had from there's so much learning to be had from what's coming up from the uh the what's coming up from the uh the what's coming up from the uh the unconscious mind in dreams, but also unconscious mind in dreams, but also unconscious mind in dreams, but also just having a mode of capture during the just having a mode of capture during the just having a mode of capture during the day. Some way to just capture the things day. Some way to just capture the things day. Some way to just capture the things that spring to mind. The great Joe that spring to mind. The great Joe that spring to mind. The great Joe Strummer from the Clash, he said this. Strummer from the Clash, he said this. Strummer from the Clash, he said this. He said, you know, if you are walking He said, you know, if you are walking He said, you know, if you are walking along and an idea comes to mind, you along and an idea comes to mind, you along and an idea comes to mind, you have to write it down because you think have to write it down because you think have to write it down because you think you'll remember it later, but you you you'll remember it later, but you you you'll remember it later, but you you will remember it in a form that is not will remember it in a form that is not will remember it in a form that is not nearly as potent. Yeah. Said something nearly as potent. Yeah. Said something nearly as potent. Yeah. Said something like that. um that this is the mind like that. um that this is the mind like that. um that this is the mind throwing you ideas that and you got you throwing you ideas that and you got you throwing you ideas that and you got you have to capture them. have to capture them. have to capture them. >> I love that. I think it's it's wise >> I love that. I think it's it's wise >> I love that. I think it's it's wise advice. advice. advice. >> Friends of mine who are songwriters, >> Friends of mine who are songwriters, >> Friends of mine who are songwriters, poets, they they do this all the time. poets, they they do this all the time. poets, they they do this all the time. They're constantly writing things down They're constantly writing things down They're constantly writing things down that they may not develop something that they may not develop something that they may not develop something from, but they understand that there's from, but they understand that there's from, but they understand that there's information being like thrown up to the information being like thrown up to the information being like thrown up to the surface for them. surface for them. surface for them. >> If you don't write it down or capture it >> If you don't write it down or capture it >> If you don't write it down or capture it in some other way, it's it it goes it's in some other way, it's it it goes it's in some other way, it's it it goes it's eancent. I actually have um I mean this eancent. I actually have um I mean this eancent. I actually have um I mean this may seem contrary to may seem contrary to may seem contrary to um views of how meditation is done but um views of how meditation is done but um views of how meditation is done but when I meditate every morning I actually when I meditate every morning I actually when I meditate every morning I actually have a a little notepad by my cushion have a a little notepad by my cushion have a a little notepad by my cushion and occasionally I don't do this every and occasionally I don't do this every and occasionally I don't do this every session but maybe twice a week um I'll session but maybe twice a week um I'll session but maybe twice a week um I'll actually write down something during the actually write down something during the actually write down something during the meditation one or two words just to meditation one or two words just to meditation one or two words just to remind me because something comes up in remind me because something comes up in remind me because something comes up in my practice u maybe an idea And I I want my practice u maybe an idea And I I want my practice u maybe an idea And I I want to remember it. I know also that I'm I to remember it. I know also that I'm I to remember it. I know also that I'm I won't remember it after uh in in the won't remember it after uh in in the won't remember it after uh in in the same richness. And so I'll just jot jot same richness. And so I'll just jot jot same richness. And so I'll just jot jot it down and then go back to my practice. it down and then go back to my practice. it down and then go back to my practice. >> Is meditation something that kids can do >> Is meditation something that kids can do >> Is meditation something that kids can do and benefit from? Has that been studied and benefit from? Has that been studied and benefit from? Has that been studied in a formal way? in a formal way? in a formal way? >> Yes, it's been studied. Um we actually >> Yes, it's been studied. Um we actually >> Yes, it's been studied. Um we actually developed a um what we've called a um a developed a um what we've called a um a developed a um what we've called a um a mindfulness-based kindness curriculum mindfulness-based kindness curriculum mindfulness-based kindness curriculum for preschool kids. preschool for preschool kids. preschool for preschool kids. preschool >> preschool and we've actually published a >> preschool and we've actually published a >> preschool and we've actually published a randomized control trial in a public randomized control trial in a public randomized control trial in a public school system of this curriculum and the school system of this curriculum and the school system of this curriculum and the curriculum is available freely on our curriculum is available freely on our curriculum is available freely on our website in both English and Spanish. So website in both English and Spanish. So website in both English and Spanish. So if any teachers are out there or you if any teachers are out there or you if any teachers are out there or you know teachers and want to use it, please know teachers and want to use it, please know teachers and want to use it, please please feel free to to download it and please feel free to to download it and please feel free to to download it and and see how it is. But yeah, so it looks and see how it is. But yeah, so it looks and see how it is. But yeah, so it looks very different. So, for example, what we very different. So, for example, what we very different. So, for example, what we do with a three-year-old, one of the do with a three-year-old, one of the do with a three-year-old, one of the exercises that they love is we ring a exercises that they love is we ring a exercises that they love is we ring a bell in a classroom and we have them bell in a classroom and we have them bell in a classroom and we have them listen tell them listen to the sound and listen tell them listen to the sound and listen tell them listen to the sound and as soon as you no longer hear sound, as soon as you no longer hear sound, as soon as you no longer hear sound, raise your hand. raise your hand. raise your hand. And it's it's amazing to see this And it's it's amazing to see this And it's it's amazing to see this because you can get 25 because you can get 25 because you can get 25 three and four year olds sitting three and four year olds sitting three and four year olds sitting perfectly still for around 10 seconds, perfectly still for around 10 seconds, perfectly still for around 10 seconds, but you know they could taste it. but you know they could taste it. but you know they could taste it. There's a palpable, There's a palpable, There's a palpable, you know, sense of of quiet in that 10 you know, sense of of quiet in that 10 you know, sense of of quiet in that 10 seconds and then they all raise their seconds and then they all raise their seconds and then they all raise their hand excitedly, but they can really hand excitedly, but they can really hand excitedly, but they can really taste it. And so I I do think it's taste it. And so I I do think it's taste it. And so I I do think it's possible. The other thing is um and this possible. The other thing is um and this possible. The other thing is um and this is something really important. There's is something really important. There's is something really important. There's something we've discovered something we've discovered something we've discovered empirically recently which is that empirically recently which is that empirically recently which is that flourishing is infectious. It's flourishing is infectious. It's flourishing is infectious. It's contagious. contagious. contagious. Flourishing is contagious. Flourishing is contagious. Flourishing is contagious. >> Can you explain what that means and how >> Can you explain what that means and how >> Can you explain what that means and how you study that? you study that? you study that? >> Yeah. So um uh in the example of you >> Yeah. So um uh in the example of you >> Yeah. So um uh in the example of you asked about meditating in kids and the asked about meditating in kids and the asked about meditating in kids and the reason I'm bringing up in this context reason I'm bringing up in this context reason I'm bringing up in this context is one of the best things I can think a is one of the best things I can think a is one of the best things I can think a parent can do for a kid is not to have parent can do for a kid is not to have parent can do for a kid is not to have the kid meditate but meditate yourself the kid meditate but meditate yourself the kid meditate but meditate yourself and just and just and just >> be with the child and be fully present >> be with the child and be fully present >> be with the child and be fully present be connected be connected be connected and really show up in that way and you and really show up in that way and you and really show up in that way and you will osmotically transmit will osmotically transmit will osmotically transmit through your demeanor through your demeanor through your demeanor uh and your uh and your uh and your um your interaction you will transmit um your interaction you will transmit um your interaction you will transmit these qualities to the child in a these qualities to the child in a these qualities to the child in a completely implicit way and that's what completely implicit way and that's what completely implicit way and that's what we mean when we say flourishing is we mean when we say flourishing is we mean when we say flourishing is contagious but how we studied it. So let contagious but how we studied it. So let contagious but how we studied it. So let me actually share one of the this is a me actually share one of the this is a me actually share one of the this is a finding that we're super excited about finding that we're super excited about finding that we're super excited about and it's not yet published but it's um and it's not yet published but it's um and it's not yet published but it's um the paper is just under review. So one the paper is just under review. So one the paper is just under review. So one of the things we're deeply interested in of the things we're deeply interested in of the things we're deeply interested in these days is how can we scale human these days is how can we scale human these days is how can we scale human flourishing. So, we're doing this kind flourishing. So, we're doing this kind flourishing. So, we're doing this kind of sector by sector. And one sector that of sector by sector. And one sector that of sector by sector. And one sector that we're doing a lot of work with is we're doing a lot of work with is we're doing a lot of work with is educators. And educators around the educators. And educators around the educators. And educators around the world and particularly in the US, but world and particularly in the US, but world and particularly in the US, but we've done this in in Mexico, too. So, we've done this in in Mexico, too. So, we've done this in in Mexico, too. So, it's not just US-based, but they're it's not just US-based, but they're it's not just US-based, but they're super stressed. They're not well paid super stressed. They're not well paid super stressed. They're not well paid and all of that. Um uh so, we did a and all of that. Um uh so, we did a and all of that. Um uh so, we did a study with public school educators in study with public school educators in study with public school educators in Louisville, Kentucky. Louisville, Kentucky. Louisville, Kentucky. And there are many reasons why we went And there are many reasons why we went And there are many reasons why we went to Louisville, but Louisville is a to Louisville, but Louisville is a to Louisville, but Louisville is a complicated school system. It's diverse. complicated school system. It's diverse. complicated school system. It's diverse. There are a lot of problems in it. And There are a lot of problems in it. And There are a lot of problems in it. And um it's a big urban school district, the um it's a big urban school district, the um it's a big urban school district, the Jefferson County Public School District Jefferson County Public School District Jefferson County Public School District in Louisville. And we did a randomized in Louisville. And we did a randomized in Louisville. And we did a randomized control trial with 832 educators in control trial with 832 educators in control trial with 832 educators in Louisville. And we had them use our Louisville. And we had them use our Louisville. And we had them use our healthy minds program which is uh uh a healthy minds program which is uh uh a healthy minds program which is uh uh a um a digital offering which is freely um a digital offering which is freely um a digital offering which is freely available as the healthy minds program available as the healthy minds program available as the healthy minds program uh where we had them cultivate four key uh where we had them cultivate four key uh where we had them cultivate four key pillars of well-being awareness pillars of well-being awareness pillars of well-being awareness connection insight and purpose. We can connection insight and purpose. We can connection insight and purpose. We can take a deeper dive into each of those take a deeper dive into each of those take a deeper dive into each of those after. But they practiced for around after. But they practiced for around after. But they practiced for around five minutes a day. The average was a five minutes a day. The average was a five minutes a day. The average was a little less than five minutes a day. little less than five minutes a day. little less than five minutes a day. over the course of 28 days. And we over the course of 28 days. And we over the course of 28 days. And we measured standard outcomes like measured standard outcomes like measured standard outcomes like depression and anxiety and stress and depression and anxiety and stress and depression and anxiety and stress and and measures of flourishing. And we find and measures of flourishing. And we find and measures of flourishing. And we find what we found in other studies, which is what we found in other studies, which is what we found in other studies, which is that depression and anxiety and stress that depression and anxiety and stress that depression and anxiety and stress went down and measures of well-being and went down and measures of well-being and went down and measures of well-being and flourishing went up. But the real kicker flourishing went up. But the real kicker flourishing went up. But the real kicker is that we by prior agreement had access is that we by prior agreement had access is that we by prior agreement had access to the um student level data in the to the um student level data in the to the um student level data in the school system. school system. school system. >> So we were able to look at the >> So we were able to look at the >> So we were able to look at the performance of the students who are performance of the students who are performance of the students who are taught by teachers randomly assigned to taught by teachers randomly assigned to taught by teachers randomly assigned to the well-being training and we compared the well-being training and we compared the well-being training and we compared them to students who are taught by them to students who are taught by them to students who are taught by teachers randomly assigned to a control teachers randomly assigned to a control teachers randomly assigned to a control group. the the students had no idea that group. the the students had no idea that group. the the students had no idea that there was any research going on. And there was any research going on. And there was any research going on. And what we found is that on standardized what we found is that on standardized what we found is that on standardized tests, this is in middle school children tests, this is in middle school children tests, this is in middle school children and the sample size for the students was and the sample size for the students was and the sample size for the students was around 13,000. around 13,000. around 13,000. Uh and what we found is that the Uh and what we found is that the Uh and what we found is that the math standardized math scores of the math standardized math scores of the math standardized math scores of the students who were taught by teachers students who were taught by teachers students who were taught by teachers randomly assigned to the well-being randomly assigned to the well-being randomly assigned to the well-being training was significantly greater than training was significantly greater than training was significantly greater than the scores of the students who are the scores of the students who are the scores of the students who are taught by teachers randomly assigned to taught by teachers randomly assigned to taught by teachers randomly assigned to the control group. the control group. the control group. >> Same curriculum, >> Same curriculum, >> Same curriculum, >> identical. >> identical. >> identical. >> So what do you think is being >> So what do you think is being >> So what do you think is being transmitted there? Is it that the transmitted there? Is it that the transmitted there? Is it that the teachers are calmer, therefore the teachers are calmer, therefore the teachers are calmer, therefore the students are calmer? Is it that the students are calmer? Is it that the students are calmer? Is it that the teachers are calmer, therefore they're teachers are calmer, therefore they're teachers are calmer, therefore they're clearer, so the students I mean there clearer, so the students I mean there clearer, so the students I mean there are a lot of variables and we don't need are a lot of variables and we don't need are a lot of variables and we don't need to isolate them. I mean this isn't uh to isolate them. I mean this isn't uh to isolate them. I mean this isn't uh we're not trying to do uh you know we're not trying to do uh you know we're not trying to do uh you know pharmarmacology here. Um but what do you pharmarmacology here. Um but what do you pharmarmacology here. Um but what do you think could be going on? think could be going on? think could be going on? >> Yeah, I think everything you said is >> Yeah, I think everything you said is >> Yeah, I think everything you said is likely to be going on. I think the likely to be going on. I think the likely to be going on. I think the students are the teachers are are likely students are the teachers are are likely students are the teachers are are likely calmer. They're more connected. Uh the calmer. They're more connected. Uh the calmer. They're more connected. Uh the and what we know is that you know it was and what we know is that you know it was and what we know is that you know it was interesting because we looked at reading interesting because we looked at reading interesting because we looked at reading scores and the the data for the scores and the the data for the scores and the the data for the standardized reading measure was in the standardized reading measure was in the standardized reading measure was in the same direction but it wasn't as robust. same direction but it wasn't as robust. same direction but it wasn't as robust. The the biggest signal was in math The the biggest signal was in math The the biggest signal was in math scores and we know that math performance scores and we know that math performance scores and we know that math performance is degraded by stress more than reading is degraded by stress more than reading is degraded by stress more than reading performance performance performance uh uh in this age group. And so it, you uh uh in this age group. And so it, you uh uh in this age group. And so it, you know, could be is something as simple as know, could be is something as simple as know, could be is something as simple as the kids who were taught by teachers the kids who were taught by teachers the kids who were taught by teachers that went through the well-being that went through the well-being that went through the well-being training are simply calmer and less training are simply calmer and less training are simply calmer and less stressed when they take the exam. Uh and stressed when they take the exam. Uh and stressed when they take the exam. Uh and so their true competence is more likely so their true competence is more likely so their true competence is more likely to be reflected in the test uh uh and to be reflected in the test uh uh and to be reflected in the test uh uh and not have it degraded by this kind of not have it degraded by this kind of not have it degraded by this kind of added stress and anxiety. So uh so this added stress and anxiety. So uh so this added stress and anxiety. So uh so this is you know an illustration that is you know an illustration that is you know an illustration that flourishing is contagious in this way. flourishing is contagious in this way. flourishing is contagious in this way. >> I would like to take a quick break and >> I would like to take a quick break and >> I would like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors JWVE. acknowledge one of our sponsors JWVE. acknowledge one of our sponsors JWVE. 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To learn more, visit juv spelled To learn more, visit juv spelled To learn more, visit juv spelled jovv.com/huberman. jovv.com/huberman. jovv.com/huberman. Again, that's jovv.com/huberman. It's so interesting and again that I can It's so interesting and again that I can think of so many different variables think of so many different variables think of so many different variables that could be at play. Um, we did an that could be at play. Um, we did an that could be at play. Um, we did an episode, one of our most popular episode, one of our most popular episode, one of our most popular episodes of ever, um, with a guy named episodes of ever, um, with a guy named episodes of ever, um, with a guy named James Hollis. Are you familiar with James Hollis. Are you familiar with James Hollis. Are you familiar with James Hollis? No, James Hollis? No, James Hollis? No, >> he's a probably by now 85year-old >> he's a probably by now 85year-old >> he's a probably by now 85year-old Yungian analyst. Yungian analyst. Yungian analyst. >> Brilliant guy. He wrote he's written a >> Brilliant guy. He wrote he's written a >> Brilliant guy. He wrote he's written a number of books. The Eden Project, which number of books. The Eden Project, which number of books. The Eden Project, which is about uh relationships and relating is about uh relationships and relating is about uh relationships and relating um uh under Saturn Shadow on the uh um uh under Saturn Shadow on the uh um uh under Saturn Shadow on the uh about trauma and healing. Just just an about trauma and healing. Just just an about trauma and healing. Just just an incredible incredible incredible soul, an incredible human and just an soul, an incredible human and just an soul, an incredible human and just an incredible educator and um I'm not alone incredible educator and um I'm not alone incredible educator and um I'm not alone in in believing that. Just spectacular. in in believing that. Just spectacular. in in believing that. Just spectacular. And I said, you know, he's a Yungian And I said, you know, he's a Yungian And I said, you know, he's a Yungian analyst. So I said, you know, what's the analyst. So I said, you know, what's the analyst. So I said, you know, what's the key to a really good life? Like, but can key to a really good life? Like, but can key to a really good life? Like, but can we talk protocols? And he said something we talk protocols? And he said something we talk protocols? And he said something really interesting that I think will really interesting that I think will really interesting that I think will resonate uh with what you're saying and resonate uh with what you're saying and resonate uh with what you're saying and perhaps shed some light on what happened perhaps shed some light on what happened perhaps shed some light on what happened with these students and flourishing in with these students and flourishing in with these students and flourishing in general. He said, "It's so important general. He said, "It's so important general. He said, "It's so important that we that we that we wake up each day and we suit up and we wake up each day and we suit up and we wake up each day and we suit up and we show up and we work in school, in show up and we work in school, in show up and we work in school, in relationships, in life," he said. But relationships, in life," he said. But relationships, in life," he said. But it's also just as important that we take it's also just as important that we take it's also just as important that we take a short amount of time every day and get a short amount of time every day and get a short amount of time every day and get out of stimulus and response. out of stimulus and response. out of stimulus and response. >> Because by getting out of stimulus and >> Because by getting out of stimulus and >> Because by getting out of stimulus and response, and I'm not being nearly as response, and I'm not being nearly as response, and I'm not being nearly as eloquent as Hollis, we eloquent as Hollis, we eloquent as Hollis, we come to know ourselves in a certain way come to know ourselves in a certain way come to know ourselves in a certain way that lets ourselves show up so much more that lets ourselves show up so much more that lets ourselves show up so much more effectively for everything else. effectively for everything else. effectively for everything else. And so maybe, just maybe, what these And so maybe, just maybe, what these And so maybe, just maybe, what these teachers achieve is by sitting in this teachers achieve is by sitting in this teachers achieve is by sitting in this anxiety, because now I'm thinking about anxiety, because now I'm thinking about anxiety, because now I'm thinking about the lactate of the mind, they're doing a the lactate of the mind, they're doing a the lactate of the mind, they're doing a practice which lets them experience the practice which lets them experience the practice which lets them experience the anxiety, not respond to it. They're anxiety, not respond to it. They're anxiety, not respond to it. They're getting out of stimulus and response. getting out of stimulus and response. getting out of stimulus and response. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> And perhaps in the classroom, >> And perhaps in the classroom, >> And perhaps in the classroom, they're able to teach more, teach more they're able to teach more, teach more they're able to teach more, teach more effectively because they're not paying effectively because they're not paying effectively because they're not paying attention to the things that don't attention to the things that don't attention to the things that don't matter. Mhm. Mhm. matter. Mhm. Mhm. matter. Mhm. Mhm. >> Or maybe it's because they're also >> Or maybe it's because they're also >> Or maybe it's because they're also paying attention to the things that do paying attention to the things that do paying attention to the things that do matter. Their signal to noise is higher. matter. Their signal to noise is higher. matter. Their signal to noise is higher. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So to speak. Anyway, I couldn't help but >> So to speak. Anyway, I couldn't help but >> So to speak. Anyway, I couldn't help but reference the Hollis thing because to reference the Hollis thing because to reference the Hollis thing because to not do that would would would be remiss. not do that would would would be remiss. not do that would would would be remiss. But also, you know, here's a guy who's But also, you know, here's a guy who's But also, you know, here's a guy who's saying you got to go to work each day. saying you got to go to work each day. saying you got to go to work each day. This is essential to building a good This is essential to building a good This is essential to building a good life and you have to do all these things life and you have to do all these things life and you have to do all these things and and he's also saying but getting out and and he's also saying but getting out and and he's also saying but getting out of stimulus response is what makes you of stimulus response is what makes you of stimulus response is what makes you effective in everything and of course effective in everything and of course effective in everything and of course improves your self-standing. And I think improves your self-standing. And I think improves your self-standing. And I think what you're saying, I don't want to put what you're saying, I don't want to put what you're saying, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what I think words in your mouth, but what I think words in your mouth, but what I think you're saying when you talk about you're saying when you talk about you're saying when you talk about meditation is that it's a it's a way of meditation is that it's a it's a way of meditation is that it's a it's a way of getting out of stimulus and response. getting out of stimulus and response. getting out of stimulus and response. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great >> Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great >> Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great analogy. Yeah. analogy. Yeah. analogy. Yeah. >> Well, he deserves all the credit for all >> Well, he deserves all the credit for all >> Well, he deserves all the credit for all of that. um you deserve all the credit of that. um you deserve all the credit of that. um you deserve all the credit for running all these experiments for running all these experiments for running all these experiments because I feel like what's been so because I feel like what's been so because I feel like what's been so frustrating over the years has been to frustrating over the years has been to frustrating over the years has been to hear how powerful meditation is but that hear how powerful meditation is but that hear how powerful meditation is but that for people in the west for people in the west for people in the west um the word meditation brings up ideas um the word meditation brings up ideas um the word meditation brings up ideas of mysticism and um ancient things and of mysticism and um ancient things and of mysticism and um ancient things and people think well that's not for me. people think well that's not for me. people think well that's not for me. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> That's not going to benefit me now in >> That's not going to benefit me now in >> That's not going to benefit me now in this world. But I would argue we need it this world. But I would argue we need it this world. But I would argue we need it even more so now. even more so now. even more so now. >> I I agree. I think that um and I think >> I I agree. I think that um and I think >> I I agree. I think that um and I think that the divisiveness and polarization that the divisiveness and polarization that the divisiveness and polarization that is just eating away at our society that is just eating away at our society that is just eating away at our society is um uh underscores the the critical is um uh underscores the the critical is um uh underscores the the critical importance of this. I I think it's importance of this. I I think it's importance of this. I I think it's needed now more than ever before in needed now more than ever before in needed now more than ever before in human history. And I think that it will, human history. And I think that it will, human history. And I think that it will, you know, with just modest amounts of you know, with just modest amounts of you know, with just modest amounts of practice and and one of the other um, practice and and one of the other um, practice and and one of the other um, you know, kind of slogans that we think you know, kind of slogans that we think you know, kind of slogans that we think is really important is that it's easier is really important is that it's easier is really important is that it's easier than you think. It really is. It it five than you think. It really is. It it five than you think. It really is. It it five minutes a day has a measurable impact. minutes a day has a measurable impact. minutes a day has a measurable impact. And so I think that if we really take And so I think that if we really take And so I think that if we really take this to heart, um, you know, if everyone this to heart, um, you know, if everyone this to heart, um, you know, if everyone practiced for five minutes a day, I have practiced for five minutes a day, I have practiced for five minutes a day, I have the strong conviction that this world the strong conviction that this world the strong conviction that this world would really be a different place. would really be a different place. would really be a different place. >> Oh, absolutely. I think I think the >> Oh, absolutely. I think I think the >> Oh, absolutely. I think I think the challenge is convincing people and and challenge is convincing people and and challenge is convincing people and and that's, you know, you're doing it. We're that's, you know, you're doing it. We're that's, you know, you're doing it. We're we're trying to do that little by we're trying to do that little by we're trying to do that little by little. I mean, for a zerocost little. I mean, for a zerocost little. I mean, for a zerocost tool, it's it's just outsized positive tool, it's it's just outsized positive tool, it's it's just outsized positive effects. I think most people come to the effects. I think most people come to the effects. I think most people come to the table because it will lower their blood table because it will lower their blood table because it will lower their blood pressure. They hear that it will reduce pressure. They hear that it will reduce pressure. They hear that it will reduce their stress, maybe make them more their stress, maybe make them more their stress, maybe make them more effective, make them smarter, sleep effective, make them smarter, sleep effective, make them smarter, sleep better. But there are also the higher better. But there are also the higher better. But there are also the higher order effects um that people talk about order effects um that people talk about order effects um that people talk about being gaining some understanding of being gaining some understanding of being gaining some understanding of consciousness and what it may or may not consciousness and what it may or may not consciousness and what it may or may not be. When do those effects tend to be. When do those effects tend to be. When do those effects tend to arrive? Um if they ever do, right? Is it arrive? Um if they ever do, right? Is it arrive? Um if they ever do, right? Is it true that by meditating, by getting out true that by meditating, by getting out true that by meditating, by getting out of the stimulus and response and just of the stimulus and response and just of the stimulus and response and just watching one's thoughts and not watching one's thoughts and not watching one's thoughts and not responding to them and just non-judgment responding to them and just non-judgment responding to them and just non-judgment that we can actually gain some that we can actually gain some that we can actually gain some fundamental insight into how our minds fundamental insight into how our minds fundamental insight into how our minds work? I do think that that's possible work? I do think that that's possible work? I do think that that's possible and I think that it does occur and um and I think that it does occur and um and I think that it does occur and um you know I think that uh if we're really you know I think that uh if we're really you know I think that uh if we're really good scientists um there there is an good scientists um there there is an good scientists um there there is an important element of humility uh as we important element of humility uh as we important element of humility uh as we approach this uh that underscores really approach this uh that underscores really approach this uh that underscores really how little we know. Uh, and I think that how little we know. Uh, and I think that how little we know. Uh, and I think that these kinds of practices help us tap these kinds of practices help us tap these kinds of practices help us tap into something that I think is part of into something that I think is part of into something that I think is part of what it means to be a human being. Um, what it means to be a human being. Um, what it means to be a human being. Um, and and part of it is honestly um, you and and part of it is honestly um, you and and part of it is honestly um, you know, we can use the words um, spiritual know, we can use the words um, spiritual know, we can use the words um, spiritual in some way. Uh, and uh, you know, or in some way. Uh, and uh, you know, or in some way. Uh, and uh, you know, or transcendent and by that I mean transcendent and by that I mean transcendent and by that I mean something connected to something larger something connected to something larger something connected to something larger than oneself. And I I know that this is than oneself. And I I know that this is than oneself. And I I know that this is getting into a little bit of woowoo getting into a little bit of woowoo getting into a little bit of woowoo territory uh and uh uh but territory uh and uh uh but territory uh and uh uh but people do have a taste of this and it people do have a taste of this and it people do have a taste of this and it helps to give their life helps to give their life helps to give their life more meaning and and to infuse it with a more meaning and and to infuse it with a more meaning and and to infuse it with a kind of purpose that um I think is kind of purpose that um I think is kind of purpose that um I think is really beneficial. really beneficial. really beneficial. I wonder and I'd love your thoughts on I wonder and I'd love your thoughts on I wonder and I'd love your thoughts on this whether by doing meditation this whether by doing meditation this whether by doing meditation and seeing that the mind is chaotic and and seeing that the mind is chaotic and and seeing that the mind is chaotic and that it's difficult to control and that that it's difficult to control and that that it's difficult to control and that perhaps the best thing we can do is just perhaps the best thing we can do is just perhaps the best thing we can do is just observe and not respond to it but not observe and not respond to it but not observe and not respond to it but not try and control it that inevitably in try and control it that inevitably in try and control it that inevitably in one's meditation practice that the one's meditation practice that the one's meditation practice that the reality surfaces that we're all going to reality surfaces that we're all going to reality surfaces that we're all going to die die die and I think for a lot of people the fear and I think for a lot of people the fear and I think for a lot of people the fear of death is terrifying. of death is terrifying. of death is terrifying. I It's inevitable and it's terrifying. I It's inevitable and it's terrifying. I It's inevitable and it's terrifying. And I do sometimes feel that a lot of And I do sometimes feel that a lot of And I do sometimes feel that a lot of the the stuff in the world that we're the the stuff in the world that we're the the stuff in the world that we're offered, whether or not it's drugs or offered, whether or not it's drugs or offered, whether or not it's drugs or alcohol or excessive work or whatever, alcohol or excessive work or whatever, alcohol or excessive work or whatever, that just all the stuff is um that a that just all the stuff is um that a that just all the stuff is um that a deeper layer of that offering is that it deeper layer of that offering is that it deeper layer of that offering is that it it distracts us from that reality. Mhm. it distracts us from that reality. Mhm. it distracts us from that reality. Mhm. >> Um because >> Um because >> Um because it's terrifying, right? I I don't most it's terrifying, right? I I don't most it's terrifying, right? I I don't most any healthy person doesn't want to die, any healthy person doesn't want to die, any healthy person doesn't want to die, >> although I don't think it's terrifying >> although I don't think it's terrifying >> although I don't think it's terrifying for all people. And I think that it's for all people. And I think that it's for all people. And I think that it's this is actually one of the dimensions this is actually one of the dimensions this is actually one of the dimensions that is shifted by long-term meditation that is shifted by long-term meditation that is shifted by long-term meditation practice unquestionably. practice unquestionably. practice unquestionably. >> Is it shifted because people come to >> Is it shifted because people come to >> Is it shifted because people come to some understanding of energy and the some understanding of energy and the some understanding of energy and the fact that they will likely become part fact that they will likely become part fact that they will likely become part of something else? Or do you think it's of something else? Or do you think it's of something else? Or do you think it's that they can just accept the reality that they can just accept the reality that they can just accept the reality that we're here than we're not here? that we're here than we're not here? that we're here than we're not here? >> I think it's more the latter. And also >> I think it's more the latter. And also >> I think it's more the latter. And also um imagine that this is the last day um imagine that this is the last day um imagine that this is the last day we're living right now. we're living right now. we're living right now. >> Friday the 13th of all days. >> Friday the 13th of all days. >> Friday the 13th of all days. >> Of all days. >> Of all days. >> Of all days. >> It happens to be Friday the 13th. >> It happens to be Friday the 13th. >> It happens to be Friday the 13th. >> Uh and you know, are we um are we >> Uh and you know, are we um are we >> Uh and you know, are we um are we showing up in a way that showing up in a way that showing up in a way that feels right for us? uh and making the feels right for us? uh and making the feels right for us? uh and making the most of our lives and not squandering most of our lives and not squandering most of our lives and not squandering the opportunity that we have. And if we the opportunity that we have. And if we the opportunity that we have. And if we can live every day in that way, uh it can live every day in that way, uh it can live every day in that way, uh it really will change, I think, how we really will change, I think, how we really will change, I think, how we approach approach approach our mortality. our mortality. our mortality. And I know for me personally, I mean, we And I know for me personally, I mean, we And I know for me personally, I mean, we I'm not well, it it I feel very I'm not well, it it I feel very I'm not well, it it I feel very differently about dying today than I did differently about dying today than I did differently about dying today than I did like 15 years ago. It's that that's one like 15 years ago. It's that that's one like 15 years ago. It's that that's one dimension where there's been a dramatic dimension where there's been a dramatic dimension where there's been a dramatic shift. shift. shift. >> Would you mind elaborating on that? How >> Would you mind elaborating on that? How >> Would you mind elaborating on that? How how so? How did you feel about it 15 20 how so? How did you feel about it 15 20 how so? How did you feel about it 15 20 years ago? years ago? years ago? >> Yeah, I was terrified. you know, in the >> Yeah, I was terrified. you know, in the >> Yeah, I was terrified. you know, in the same way I, you know, had a family. I same way I, you know, had a family. I same way I, you know, had a family. I have two kids that I have all these, you have two kids that I have all these, you have two kids that I have all these, you know, responsibilities know, responsibilities know, responsibilities and um I reflect on this. I really do. and um I reflect on this. I really do. and um I reflect on this. I really do. And um you know, if I died today, I And um you know, if I died today, I And um you know, if I died today, I would feel like I've lived a very would feel like I've lived a very would feel like I've lived a very fulfilling life. Um and uh uh and fulfilling life. Um and uh uh and fulfilling life. Um and uh uh and I'm fine with that. I'm fine with that. I'm fine with that. >> That's a great thing to be able to say. >> That's a great thing to be able to say. >> That's a great thing to be able to say. That's a great thing to be able to say. That's a great thing to be able to say. That's a great thing to be able to say. I don't think most people would probably I don't think most people would probably I don't think most people would probably be able to say the same wholeheartedly. be able to say the same wholeheartedly. be able to say the same wholeheartedly. Yeah. And you attribute some of that Yeah. And you attribute some of that Yeah. And you attribute some of that sense to meditation. Definitely. But sense to meditation. Definitely. But sense to meditation. Definitely. But it's been gradual. You know, I've been it's been gradual. You know, I've been it's been gradual. You know, I've been at this my my very first meditation at this my my very first meditation at this my my very first meditation retreat was in 1974. retreat was in 1974. retreat was in 1974. Uh and I've been practicing daily ever Uh and I've been practicing daily ever Uh and I've been practicing daily ever since. since. since. >> Every single day. Well, I may have >> Every single day. Well, I may have >> Every single day. Well, I may have missed you one or two days a year when I missed you one or two days a year when I missed you one or two days a year when I had a 6 a.m. flight, but other than had a 6 a.m. flight, but other than had a 6 a.m. flight, but other than that, yes. that, yes. that, yes. >> And what is your practice um your most >> And what is your practice um your most >> And what is your practice um your most consistent practice been? consistent practice been? consistent practice been? >> You know, my practice has changed >> You know, my practice has changed >> You know, my practice has changed many times over these the course of many times over these the course of many times over these the course of these years and very different these years and very different these years and very different traditions in which I've practiced. Um traditions in which I've practiced. Um traditions in which I've practiced. Um so, so, so, >> what about time of day? Is it typically >> what about time of day? Is it typically >> what about time of day? Is it typically >> morning? It's always been morning for >> morning? It's always been morning for >> morning? It's always been morning for me. You get up, use the bathroom, have a me. You get up, use the bathroom, have a me. You get up, use the bathroom, have a drink of water, and start or you go drink of water, and start or you go drink of water, and start or you go right into it? right into it? right into it? >> No, I get up uh uh and I make myself uh >> No, I get up uh uh and I make myself uh >> No, I get up uh uh and I make myself uh these days a cup of strong black tea these days a cup of strong black tea these days a cup of strong black tea >> uh and I drink the tea which takes maybe >> uh and I drink the tea which takes maybe >> uh and I drink the tea which takes maybe 15 minutes uh and then I meditate. 15 minutes uh and then I meditate. 15 minutes uh and then I meditate. >> Got it. Do you set a timer or a chime? >> Got it. Do you set a timer or a chime? >> Got it. Do you set a timer or a chime? Yeah, I do set a timer and you know I Yeah, I do set a timer and you know I Yeah, I do set a timer and you know I meditate at various lengths but I my meditate at various lengths but I my meditate at various lengths but I my modal time sitting is about 45 minutes a modal time sitting is about 45 minutes a modal time sitting is about 45 minutes a day. Um sometimes it's longer, sometimes day. Um sometimes it's longer, sometimes day. Um sometimes it's longer, sometimes it's shorter but uh usually around 45 it's shorter but uh usually around 45 it's shorter but uh usually around 45 minutes a day and maybe three or four minutes a day and maybe three or four minutes a day and maybe three or four days a week I do a really short practice days a week I do a really short practice days a week I do a really short practice at night, maybe five minutes before I go at night, maybe five minutes before I go at night, maybe five minutes before I go to sleep. to sleep. to sleep. Since everyone that takes on the five Since everyone that takes on the five Since everyone that takes on the five minute a day 30-day meditation challenge minute a day 30-day meditation challenge minute a day 30-day meditation challenge will do it uh once they reach 30 days will do it uh once they reach 30 days will do it uh once they reach 30 days would does it make sense to update that would does it make sense to update that would does it make sense to update that to a longer meditation or would you just to a longer meditation or would you just to a longer meditation or would you just suggest that people stay with that as suggest that people stay with that as suggest that people stay with that as long as possible? What I would suggest long as possible? What I would suggest long as possible? What I would suggest is check in with yourself uh and see how is check in with yourself uh and see how is check in with yourself uh and see how you're feeling about it and um how it's you're feeling about it and um how it's you're feeling about it and um how it's resonating with you and uh uh and if you resonating with you and uh uh and if you resonating with you and uh uh and if you feel like you can't really do much more feel like you can't really do much more feel like you can't really do much more just stick with five minutes a day and just stick with five minutes a day and just stick with five minutes a day and keep doing that. The important thing is keep doing that. The important thing is keep doing that. The important thing is to stick with a daily practice. And one to stick with a daily practice. And one to stick with a daily practice. And one of the things that um we talk about in of the things that um we talk about in of the things that um we talk about in this new book, Born to Flourish, is a this new book, Born to Flourish, is a this new book, Born to Flourish, is a lot of people have a really difficult lot of people have a really difficult lot of people have a really difficult time time time coming up with a with really being able coming up with a with really being able coming up with a with really being able to do this daily. Uh and one of the to do this daily. Uh and one of the to do this daily. Uh and one of the things that we talk about based on our things that we talk about based on our things that we talk about based on our finding that it doesn't matter at least finding that it doesn't matter at least finding that it doesn't matter at least in the early stages whether you're in the early stages whether you're in the early stages whether you're meditating uh as a formal practice or meditating uh as a formal practice or meditating uh as a formal practice or doing it while doing other activities of doing it while doing other activities of doing it while doing other activities of daily living that are not demanding like daily living that are not demanding like daily living that are not demanding like walking or commuting. You tie this to walking or commuting. You tie this to walking or commuting. You tie this to regular activities that you do every day regular activities that you do every day regular activities that you do every day whatever those activities are. We we whatever those activities are. We we whatever those activities are. We we talk about this idea of social talk about this idea of social talk about this idea of social zeitgeabers. A zeitgeab as you know is zeitgeabers. A zeitgeab as you know is zeitgeabers. A zeitgeab as you know is an environmental event, a signal um that an environmental event, a signal um that an environmental event, a signal um that is that marks a um in the classical is that marks a um in the classical is that marks a um in the classical literature a biological rhythm like um literature a biological rhythm like um literature a biological rhythm like um light is a zeitgeab um to set our light is a zeitgeab um to set our light is a zeitgeab um to set our biological rhythms. But we in the modern biological rhythms. But we in the modern biological rhythms. But we in the modern world we have social zeitgeabers that world we have social zeitgeabers that world we have social zeitgeabers that are human created zeitgeab. So eating are human created zeitgeab. So eating are human created zeitgeab. So eating for example as a zeitge um we eat for example as a zeitge um we eat for example as a zeitge um we eat typically at roughly similar times every typically at roughly similar times every typically at roughly similar times every day at least most people and that's an day at least most people and that's an day at least most people and that's an opportunity uh you do that every day you opportunity uh you do that every day you opportunity uh you do that every day you can pair a little practice with that um can pair a little practice with that um can pair a little practice with that um and you know one of the practices that and you know one of the practices that and you know one of the practices that you can do which I do every time I eat you can do which I do every time I eat you can do which I do every time I eat virtually unless I'm meeting with virtually unless I'm meeting with virtually unless I'm meeting with someone and it's awkward um but I do it someone and it's awkward um but I do it someone and it's awkward um but I do it at home is do a little appreciation at home is do a little appreciation at home is do a little appreciation practice spend just a um 30 to to 90 practice spend just a um 30 to to 90 practice spend just a um 30 to to 90 seconds reflecting on all the people it seconds reflecting on all the people it seconds reflecting on all the people it took to have food on your plate. Um and took to have food on your plate. Um and took to have food on your plate. Um and it also gives you a sense of it also gives you a sense of it also gives you a sense of interdependence. And when I sit down, interdependence. And when I sit down, interdependence. And when I sit down, you know, and have my breakfast, uh it's you know, and have my breakfast, uh it's you know, and have my breakfast, uh it's a cue for me. It's a social zeitgeaber. a cue for me. It's a social zeitgeaber. a cue for me. It's a social zeitgeaber. I do my appreciation practice every I do my appreciation practice every I do my appreciation practice every single time. Um and then you there's single time. Um and then you there's single time. Um and then you there's crazy things you can do like I have a crazy things you can do like I have a crazy things you can do like I have a cat at home. Um, I'm the one who scoops cat at home. Um, I'm the one who scoops cat at home. Um, I'm the one who scoops the litter every night. I actually do the litter every night. I actually do the litter every night. I actually do that as a practice. that as a practice. that as a practice. >> Um, uh, and it it literally takes no >> Um, uh, and it it literally takes no >> Um, uh, and it it literally takes no extra time. I do it while I'm doing the extra time. I do it while I'm doing the extra time. I do it while I'm doing the the scooping of the litter, but I I the scooping of the litter, but I I the scooping of the litter, but I I honestly do this in in a very authentic, honestly do this in in a very authentic, honestly do this in in a very authentic, genuine way. I reflect on, you know, the genuine way. I reflect on, you know, the genuine way. I reflect on, you know, the cat really appreciates this. My wife cat really appreciates this. My wife cat really appreciates this. My wife appreciates this. Um, and people who go appreciates this. Um, and people who go appreciates this. Um, and people who go into the room with the cat litter into the room with the cat litter into the room with the cat litter appreciate that it's clean and scooped appreciate that it's clean and scooped appreciate that it's clean and scooped on a regular basis. And you know, I just on a regular basis. And you know, I just on a regular basis. And you know, I just reflect on that intentionally. reflect on that intentionally. reflect on that intentionally. Uh, it doesn't take much. It's easier Uh, it doesn't take much. It's easier Uh, it doesn't take much. It's easier than you think. than you think. than you think. >> Yeah. It's so interesting. I mean, I I >> Yeah. It's so interesting. I mean, I I >> Yeah. It's so interesting. I mean, I I don't want to um contort the message don't want to um contort the message don't want to um contort the message you're you're offering because it's a you're you're offering because it's a you're you're offering because it's a powerful one about a bringing awareness powerful one about a bringing awareness powerful one about a bringing awareness to the things that we have to do anyway to the things that we have to do anyway to the things that we have to do anyway and allowing that to make us more and allowing that to make us more and allowing that to make us more effective and happier and more present. effective and happier and more present. effective and happier and more present. But there's also this idea around But there's also this idea around But there's also this idea around disciplines and the word discipline gets disciplines and the word discipline gets disciplines and the word discipline gets is kind of heavy. No, nobody really is kind of heavy. No, nobody really is kind of heavy. No, nobody really likes it um because we got disciplined likes it um because we got disciplined likes it um because we got disciplined or something. But uh I used to pride or something. But uh I used to pride or something. But uh I used to pride myself on working longer hours than myself on working longer hours than myself on working longer hours than everyone and and as the years have gone everyone and and as the years have gone everyone and and as the years have gone on, I pride myself in just I can um on, I pride myself in just I can um on, I pride myself in just I can um consistency is my superpower. consistency is my superpower. consistency is my superpower. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I may not show up with the most >> I may not show up with the most >> I may not show up with the most intensity every time, although intensity every time, although intensity every time, although sometimes, but intensity sometimes, but intensity sometimes, but intensity uh kind of waxes and waines, but there's uh kind of waxes and waines, but there's uh kind of waxes and waines, but there's something about just showing up anyway something about just showing up anyway something about just showing up anyway and just doing it anyway that is so and just doing it anyway that is so and just doing it anyway that is so powerful. And I I sometimes wonder powerful. And I I sometimes wonder powerful. And I I sometimes wonder whether or not the mind is just it's our whether or not the mind is just it's our whether or not the mind is just it's our foe until we embrace that piece. It's foe until we embrace that piece. It's foe until we embrace that piece. It's kind of a little bit of what you're kind of a little bit of what you're kind of a little bit of what you're saying. saying. saying. >> Yeah. And I love the consistency uh >> Yeah. And I love the consistency uh >> Yeah. And I love the consistency uh theme and also the discipline. And yes, theme and also the discipline. And yes, theme and also the discipline. And yes, I think you're naming something real and I think you're naming something real and I think you're naming something real and important. And there's a delicate important. And there's a delicate important. And there's a delicate calculus uh that ranges between kind of calculus uh that ranges between kind of calculus uh that ranges between kind of um letting go and discipline and each um letting go and discipline and each um letting go and discipline and each person I think person I think person I think falls at a different point in this falls at a different point in this falls at a different point in this continuum. Uh and what works for one continuum. Uh and what works for one continuum. Uh and what works for one person may not work for for another. You person may not work for for another. You person may not work for for another. You know with with regard to meditation I know with with regard to meditation I know with with regard to meditation I always say that what's best for one always say that what's best for one always say that what's best for one person isn't necessarily what's best for person isn't necessarily what's best for person isn't necessarily what's best for others. And we have to discover what others. And we have to discover what others. And we have to discover what works for us. Um, you know, what we do works for us. Um, you know, what we do works for us. Um, you know, what we do know is that in in terms of meditation know is that in in terms of meditation know is that in in terms of meditation that consistency is really important. that consistency is really important. that consistency is really important. You know, I was never a particularly You know, I was never a particularly You know, I was never a particularly good athlete or bad athlete, but I've good athlete or bad athlete, but I've good athlete or bad athlete, but I've just been really consistent at exercise just been really consistent at exercise just been really consistent at exercise and I mean, I play fewer sports these and I mean, I play fewer sports these and I mean, I play fewer sports these days than than I did. But just that just days than than I did. But just that just days than than I did. But just that just continuing to show up um allows you to continuing to show up um allows you to continuing to show up um allows you to be the person among your peers. Not that be the person among your peers. Not that be the person among your peers. Not that it's competitive where you go, everyone it's competitive where you go, everyone it's competitive where you go, everyone else seems to have quit and they're else seems to have quit and they're else seems to have quit and they're talking about how much this hurts and talking about how much this hurts and talking about how much this hurts and that hurts and you're like and all that that hurts and you're like and all that that hurts and you're like and all that you really had to do is just kind of you really had to do is just kind of you really had to do is just kind of keep keep going. And I I sometimes think keep keep going. And I I sometimes think keep keep going. And I I sometimes think that the people that are max intensity that the people that are max intensity that the people that are max intensity and they you know it's like gold medal and they you know it's like gold medal and they you know it's like gold medal or bust, they're always the ones are or bust, they're always the ones are or bust, they're always the ones are often the ones that we don't hear from often the ones that we don't hear from often the ones that we don't hear from anymore. They're like gone burn out. anymore. They're like gone burn out. anymore. They're like gone burn out. >> Yeah. So I I love the examples of the >> Yeah. So I I love the examples of the >> Yeah. So I I love the examples of the Dollaly Lama and you know the the Dollaly Lama and you know the the Dollaly Lama and you know the the Michael Jordans of every domain, but Michael Jordans of every domain, but Michael Jordans of every domain, but >> I don't know. I mean, I I'm more >> I don't know. I mean, I I'm more >> I don't know. I mean, I I'm more interested in um being the person that interested in um being the person that interested in um being the person that at 50 60 I mean, you're in your mid70s. at 50 60 I mean, you're in your mid70s. at 50 60 I mean, you're in your mid70s. You look incredible. You're super vital, You look incredible. You're super vital, You look incredible. You're super vital, cognitively sharp, you're in shape, cognitively sharp, you're in shape, cognitively sharp, you're in shape, you're excited about life, you're not you're excited about life, you're not you're excited about life, you're not afraid of death. Clearly, you're on to afraid of death. Clearly, you're on to afraid of death. Clearly, you're on to something, you know? So, and I doubt something, you know? So, and I doubt something, you know? So, and I doubt it's just the black tea. I'm guessing it's just the black tea. I'm guessing it's just the black tea. I'm guessing it's to some extent, I mean, there you it's to some extent, I mean, there you it's to some extent, I mean, there you have all the other aspects of your life, have all the other aspects of your life, have all the other aspects of your life, but this consistency of meditation but this consistency of meditation but this consistency of meditation practice. practice. practice. >> Yeah. No, I think it's been super >> Yeah. No, I think it's been super >> Yeah. No, I think it's been super important. I do think that the important. I do think that the important. I do think that the discipline that you're talking about is discipline that you're talking about is discipline that you're talking about is really important and it is part of it. really important and it is part of it. really important and it is part of it. uh um but again I think we need to find uh um but again I think we need to find uh um but again I think we need to find the right balance for each person and the right balance for each person and the right balance for each person and initially it's really important to um initially it's really important to um initially it's really important to um have people uh invite them to taste this have people uh invite them to taste this have people uh invite them to taste this with the lowest possible friction so with the lowest possible friction so with the lowest possible friction so that they can can really um experience that they can can really um experience that they can can really um experience the benefit and then it can gradually the benefit and then it can gradually the benefit and then it can gradually >> progress and and they can you know um uh >> progress and and they can you know um uh >> progress and and they can you know um uh harness some discip discipline which harness some discip discipline which harness some discip discipline which eventually will be important. eventually will be important. eventually will be important. >> I'd like to talk about >> I'd like to talk about >> I'd like to talk about online culture and social media just online culture and social media just online culture and social media just briefly because I don't want to demonize briefly because I don't want to demonize briefly because I don't want to demonize it. I teach on social media. This will it. I teach on social media. This will it. I teach on social media. This will be aired on various online platforms and be aired on various online platforms and be aired on various online platforms and clips of it will appear on social media. clips of it will appear on social media. clips of it will appear on social media. But I have this um sneaking suspicion But I have this um sneaking suspicion But I have this um sneaking suspicion that that that by going online by going online by going online um the mind starts to believe this thing um the mind starts to believe this thing um the mind starts to believe this thing that's not true that that's not true that that's not true that if we're not online if we're not online if we're not online either posting or looking at what people either posting or looking at what people either posting or looking at what people post or both that somehow will post or both that somehow will post or both that somehow will disappear. disappear. disappear. And it gets to this idea of the anxiety And it gets to this idea of the anxiety And it gets to this idea of the anxiety that one feels when you just go into that one feels when you just go into that one feels when you just go into your own mind and it's chaos in there your own mind and it's chaos in there your own mind and it's chaos in there for so many people. It's like it's chaos for so many people. It's like it's chaos for so many people. It's like it's chaos in here and then just learning to sit in here and then just learning to sit in here and then just learning to sit with that. I think a lot of people go with that. I think a lot of people go with that. I think a lot of people go into the world because the chaos of the into the world because the chaos of the into the world because the chaos of the world can occupy their attention and world can occupy their attention and world can occupy their attention and then it's not about the chaos that's in then it's not about the chaos that's in then it's not about the chaos that's in them. them. them. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Again, I don't want to demonize online >> Again, I don't want to demonize online >> Again, I don't want to demonize online platforms because I use them, I educate platforms because I use them, I educate platforms because I use them, I educate on them, I learn from them and I'm and I on them, I learn from them and I'm and I on them, I learn from them and I'm and I gain entertainment from them, too. But I gain entertainment from them, too. But I gain entertainment from them, too. But I wonder whether or not the net effect of wonder whether or not the net effect of wonder whether or not the net effect of social media and the internet over the social media and the internet over the social media and the internet over the last, let's say, 10 to 15 years has been last, let's say, 10 to 15 years has been last, let's say, 10 to 15 years has been to trick the mind at an unconscious to trick the mind at an unconscious to trick the mind at an unconscious level into thinking that if we're not on level into thinking that if we're not on level into thinking that if we're not on there, we're going to miss out. But it's there, we're going to miss out. But it's there, we're going to miss out. But it's not FOMO of not like we're not going to not FOMO of not like we're not going to not FOMO of not like we're not going to be included, but that I actually think be included, but that I actually think be included, but that I actually think it may run much deeper than that. That it may run much deeper than that. That it may run much deeper than that. That it's that we that we don't exist. that it's that we that we don't exist. that it's that we that we don't exist. that life is there and if we're not aware of life is there and if we're not aware of life is there and if we're not aware of it, we don't exist. Because I see it, we don't exist. Because I see it, we don't exist. Because I see parents looking at their phones while parents looking at their phones while parents looking at their phones while their kids are running around them. So, their kids are running around them. So, their kids are running around them. So, you can't say, "Oh, well, this is only, you can't say, "Oh, well, this is only, you can't say, "Oh, well, this is only, you know, well, we have kids and you're you know, well, we have kids and you're you know, well, we have kids and you're tending to your kids." And some parents tending to your kids." And some parents tending to your kids." And some parents are great parents, but uh I see a lot of are great parents, but uh I see a lot of are great parents, but uh I see a lot of kids that are clearly being, you know, kids that are clearly being, you know, kids that are clearly being, you know, babysat by devices and the parents will babysat by devices and the parents will babysat by devices and the parents will say, "Listen, it's the only thing that say, "Listen, it's the only thing that say, "Listen, it's the only thing that quiets them down and gets them to settle quiets them down and gets them to settle quiets them down and gets them to settle down while I can tend to things." So I down while I can tend to things." So I down while I can tend to things." So I can relate. But yeah, what do you think can relate. But yeah, what do you think can relate. But yeah, what do you think about the idea that the internet while about the idea that the internet while about the idea that the internet while powerful and can be used for great good powerful and can be used for great good powerful and can be used for great good may have convinced may have convinced may have convinced billions of human minds that they don't billions of human minds that they don't billions of human minds that they don't exist if they're not observing or exist if they're not observing or exist if they're not observing or engaging on there. I mean I think that engaging on there. I mean I think that engaging on there. I mean I think that that's um something super important and that's um something super important and that's um something super important and uh uh I think uh uh I think uh uh I think uh you know with regard to attention we uh you know with regard to attention we uh you know with regard to attention we talk about um uh two big buckets. One is talk about um uh two big buckets. One is talk about um uh two big buckets. One is um stimulus captured attention and the um stimulus captured attention and the um stimulus captured attention and the the folks who design products online the folks who design products online the folks who design products online have been really good at capturing our have been really good at capturing our have been really good at capturing our attention. uh and uh uh and our attention. uh and uh uh and our attention. uh and uh uh and our attention gets hijacked by that and uh attention gets hijacked by that and uh attention gets hijacked by that and uh and it leads to the kind of inference and it leads to the kind of inference and it leads to the kind of inference that you're talking about which is that that you're talking about which is that that you're talking about which is that people feel that they may not exist people feel that they may not exist people feel that they may not exist unless they're um they're online and you unless they're um they're online and you unless they're um they're online and you know I read uh some survey study that know I read uh some survey study that know I read uh some survey study that was done uh um uh within the last year was done uh um uh within the last year was done uh um uh within the last year uh that reported that the average uh that reported that the average uh that reported that the average American opens their phone 152 times a American opens their phone 152 times a American opens their phone 152 times a day. I think most people would agree day. I think most people would agree day. I think most people would agree they don't need to open their phone 152 they don't need to open their phone 152 they don't need to open their phone 152 times a day. Um but we do it uh for um times a day. Um but we do it uh for um times a day. Um but we do it uh for um for those kinds of reasons. And um uh for those kinds of reasons. And um uh for those kinds of reasons. And um uh you know I often say we we are all part you know I often say we we are all part you know I often say we we are all part of a grand experiment for which none of of a grand experiment for which none of of a grand experiment for which none of us have provided our informed consent. us have provided our informed consent. us have provided our informed consent. Uh, and I think it's serious and I think Uh, and I think it's serious and I think Uh, and I think it's serious and I think that we don't know what the long-term that we don't know what the long-term that we don't know what the long-term consequences are going to be, but we do consequences are going to be, but we do consequences are going to be, but we do know that, you know, the short-term know that, you know, the short-term know that, you know, the short-term consequences, um, at least in certain consequences, um, at least in certain consequences, um, at least in certain cases are not very good. And I'm someone cases are not very good. And I'm someone cases are not very good. And I'm someone who is also, like you, Andrew, a great who is also, like you, Andrew, a great who is also, like you, Andrew, a great believer in the potential value of believer in the potential value of believer in the potential value of technology. And I believe that technology. And I believe that technology. And I believe that technology is um is basically neutral technology is um is basically neutral technology is um is basically neutral and we can use it for the good and we and we can use it for the good and we and we can use it for the good and we can also it can be used for harm. Um but can also it can be used for harm. Um but can also it can be used for harm. Um but you know the previous surgeon general of you know the previous surgeon general of you know the previous surgeon general of the United States who I miss VC Mertie the United States who I miss VC Mertie the United States who I miss VC Mertie uh issued a health advisory in 2023 uh issued a health advisory in 2023 uh issued a health advisory in 2023 on um social media. The title was social on um social media. The title was social on um social media. The title was social media and youth mental health and he has media and youth mental health and he has media and youth mental health and he has um scary data that that were was um scary data that that were was um scary data that that were was reported in that report. Some of the reported in that report. Some of the reported in that report. Some of the data show that the psychiatric problems data show that the psychiatric problems data show that the psychiatric problems in adolescence scale linearly with the in adolescence scale linearly with the in adolescence scale linearly with the um hours of social media consumption per um hours of social media consumption per um hours of social media consumption per day. And so it is really uh eroding the day. And so it is really uh eroding the day. And so it is really uh eroding the mental health of our youth, not to say mental health of our youth, not to say mental health of our youth, not to say of our adults too. of our adults too. of our adults too. >> Yeah, I think a lot of adults now are >> Yeah, I think a lot of adults now are >> Yeah, I think a lot of adults now are hitting those uh hitting uh the black hitting those uh hitting uh the black hitting those uh hitting uh the black ice of internet use just like even among ice of internet use just like even among ice of internet use just like even among peers of ours professionals. I mean it peers of ours professionals. I mean it peers of ours professionals. I mean it was wild to see how many people was wild to see how many people was wild to see how many people who were chairs of departments, who were chairs of departments, who were chairs of departments, brilliant um creators, academics, uh brilliant um creators, academics, uh brilliant um creators, academics, uh people from all domains of life, um people from all domains of life, um people from all domains of life, um demolished their careers by getting demolished their careers by getting demolished their careers by getting caught up in stuff online and not being caught up in stuff online and not being caught up in stuff online and not being thoughtful about what they were posting. thoughtful about what they were posting. thoughtful about what they were posting. You just go, I can't believe it. I mean, You just go, I can't believe it. I mean, You just go, I can't believe it. I mean, they they they threw away their they they they threw away their they they they threw away their professional lives with their thumbs. professional lives with their thumbs. professional lives with their thumbs. It was wild, right? If you think about It was wild, right? If you think about It was wild, right? If you think about it, and this is happening less nowadays, it, and this is happening less nowadays, it, and this is happening less nowadays, but just people but just people but just people just nuking their careers that they had just nuking their careers that they had just nuking their careers that they had spent 20, 30 years building. These were spent 20, 30 years building. These were spent 20, 30 years building. These were very successful, very smart people. very successful, very smart people. very successful, very smart people. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But somehow got caught up in it. We see >> But somehow got caught up in it. We see >> But somehow got caught up in it. We see that less. But I do see a lot of people that less. But I do see a lot of people that less. But I do see a lot of people getting into the the whole polarization getting into the the whole polarization getting into the the whole polarization thing to the point where there really is thing to the point where there really is thing to the point where there really is no common ground online. It's no common ground online. It's no common ground online. It's impossible. you you can't take a nuanced impossible. you you can't take a nuanced impossible. you you can't take a nuanced perspective on something. I try, you perspective on something. I try, you perspective on something. I try, you know, I said, "Oh, I thought the new know, I said, "Oh, I thought the new know, I said, "Oh, I thought the new food guidelines um could afford to food guidelines um could afford to food guidelines um could afford to include a few more vegetable suggestions include a few more vegetable suggestions include a few more vegetable suggestions and some fermented foods and like and some fermented foods and like and some fermented foods and like immediately that the fact that I didn't immediately that the fact that I didn't immediately that the fact that I didn't completely attack it, right, was I got completely attack it, right, was I got completely attack it, right, was I got attacked for that, but then I got attacked for that, but then I got attacked for that, but then I got attacked for the other side for not attacked for the other side for not attacked for the other side for not completely embracing it." So, it's like completely embracing it." So, it's like completely embracing it." So, it's like you can't win. you can't win. you can't win. >> You can't win. >> You can't win. >> You can't win. >> But getting offline is not an option. >> But getting offline is not an option. >> But getting offline is not an option. >> It's not an option. And the younger >> It's not an option. And the younger >> It's not an option. And the younger generation has been very clear with me generation has been very clear with me generation has been very clear with me about that. It is not an option to get about that. It is not an option to get about that. It is not an option to get to not be on social media platforms to to not be on social media platforms to to not be on social media platforms to not be texting much of the day is to not not be texting much of the day is to not not be texting much of the day is to not exist in the social millu. And so how do exist in the social millu. And so how do exist in the social millu. And so how do we reconcile that? we reconcile that? we reconcile that? >> Yeah. So um these are uh really >> Yeah. So um these are uh really >> Yeah. So um these are uh really complicated issues. I think that um you complicated issues. I think that um you complicated issues. I think that um you know I certainly don't uh in any way know I certainly don't uh in any way know I certainly don't uh in any way pretend to have the answer but I do pretend to have the answer but I do pretend to have the answer but I do think that we need to take digital think that we need to take digital think that we need to take digital hygiene seriously and we need to figure hygiene seriously and we need to figure hygiene seriously and we need to figure out ways of as part of standard school out ways of as part of standard school out ways of as part of standard school curricula of educating our youth in how curricula of educating our youth in how curricula of educating our youth in how to change their relationship or how to to change their relationship or how to to change their relationship or how to be to say it a different way. how to be be to say it a different way. how to be be to say it a different way. how to be in healthy relationship with their in healthy relationship with their in healthy relationship with their digital devices and the products and digital devices and the products and digital devices and the products and features that are available on those features that are available on those features that are available on those devices. I have the conviction that it's devices. I have the conviction that it's devices. I have the conviction that it's a trainable skill. a trainable skill. a trainable skill. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But we need particularly in youth to >> But we need particularly in youth to >> But we need particularly in youth to start early before they get their first start early before they get their first start early before they get their first phone. Is there any evidence that phone. Is there any evidence that phone. Is there any evidence that meditation because it allows somebody to meditation because it allows somebody to meditation because it allows somebody to sit with the lactate of the mind can sit with the lactate of the mind can sit with the lactate of the mind can also um afford someone less impulsivity also um afford someone less impulsivity also um afford someone less impulsivity and um sort of being less prone to and um sort of being less prone to and um sort of being less prone to getting hooked by the chaos of the world getting hooked by the chaos of the world getting hooked by the chaos of the world around them. around them. around them. >> Yeah, I I don't you know I don't think >> Yeah, I I don't you know I don't think >> Yeah, I I don't you know I don't think there's any hard data on that, but I there's any hard data on that, but I there's any hard data on that, but I think it's a great question. I think think it's a great question. I think think it's a great question. I think it's actually empirically tractable. it's actually empirically tractable. it's actually empirically tractable. >> I think it's really worth studying. My >> I think it's really worth studying. My >> I think it's really worth studying. My conviction is yes, I think it's it would conviction is yes, I think it's it would conviction is yes, I think it's it would be helpful, but there the data don't be helpful, but there the data don't be helpful, but there the data don't exist. exist. exist. >> What would an experiment look like that >> What would an experiment look like that >> What would an experiment look like that look like? I feel like we should run look like? I feel like we should run look like? I feel like we should run that experiment. that experiment. that experiment. >> That would be cool. I'd love to >> That would be cool. I'd love to >> That would be cool. I'd love to collaborate. collaborate. collaborate. >> Yeah, I feel like there's got to be >> Yeah, I feel like there's got to be >> Yeah, I feel like there's got to be established inlab measures of established inlab measures of established inlab measures of impulsivity. impulsivity. impulsivity. >> Yeah, there are good measures of >> Yeah, there are good measures of >> Yeah, there are good measures of impulsivity. And actually with impulsivity. And actually with impulsivity. And actually with impulsivity, um there there are measures impulsivity, um there there are measures impulsivity, um there there are measures that go beyond self-report measures. that go beyond self-report measures. that go beyond self-report measures. their behavioral measures of impulsivity their behavioral measures of impulsivity their behavioral measures of impulsivity which may have more validity. And so it which may have more validity. And so it which may have more validity. And so it would be extremely interesting and you would be extremely interesting and you would be extremely interesting and you know with device use and with with a know with device use and with with a know with device use and with with a person's consent you can actually get person's consent you can actually get person's consent you can actually get backend data so you don't rely on backend data so you don't rely on backend data so you don't rely on self-report. So it can be really um self-report. So it can be really um self-report. So it can be really um robust kind of evidence. The word robust kind of evidence. The word robust kind of evidence. The word discipline comes to mind again and I discipline comes to mind again and I discipline comes to mind again and I think so many people when they hear think so many people when they hear think so many people when they hear discipline they think about doing discipline they think about doing discipline they think about doing certain things waking up at 5, certain things waking up at 5, certain things waking up at 5, exercising, meditating, eating clean, exercising, meditating, eating clean, exercising, meditating, eating clean, etc. But to me the most etc. But to me the most etc. But to me the most interesting aspect of discipline are the interesting aspect of discipline are the interesting aspect of discipline are the don't do. don't do. don't do. >> It's all the stuff you don't do. You >> It's all the stuff you don't do. You >> It's all the stuff you don't do. You know, we're in the Winter Olympics now know, we're in the Winter Olympics now know, we're in the Winter Olympics now and I haven't been watching. I like the and I haven't been watching. I like the and I haven't been watching. I like the summer Olympics. But um inevitably when summer Olympics. But um inevitably when summer Olympics. But um inevitably when they do the Olympics, they interview the they do the Olympics, they interview the they do the Olympics, they interview the people who win gold medals or they'll do people who win gold medals or they'll do people who win gold medals or they'll do a day in the life of and and they'll a day in the life of and and they'll a day in the life of and and they'll say, you know, uh they wake up at 5 a.m. say, you know, uh they wake up at 5 a.m. say, you know, uh they wake up at 5 a.m. and then they train and they always want and then they train and they always want and then they train and they always want to say, "What do you what do they eat?" to say, "What do you what do they eat?" to say, "What do you what do they eat?" >> You know, they go, "Oh, you have four >> You know, they go, "Oh, you have four >> You know, they go, "Oh, you have four eggs in my oatmeal or whatever it is." eggs in my oatmeal or whatever it is." eggs in my oatmeal or whatever it is." Um what they really need to show is all Um what they really need to show is all Um what they really need to show is all the things they don't eat, right? the things they don't eat, right? the things they don't eat, right? Because sure, what they eat is Because sure, what they eat is Because sure, what they eat is interesting perhaps, but far more interesting perhaps, but far more interesting perhaps, but far more relevant to their performance is all the relevant to their performance is all the relevant to their performance is all the things they don't eat. It's all the things they don't eat. It's all the things they don't eat. It's all the things they're not doing. Yeah. things they're not doing. Yeah. things they're not doing. Yeah. >> And of course that makes for much less >> And of course that makes for much less >> And of course that makes for much less entertaining um shows. So they don't do entertaining um shows. So they don't do entertaining um shows. So they don't do that. But I feel like the the training that. But I feel like the the training that. But I feel like the the training that would be so valuable is the to that would be so valuable is the to that would be so valuable is the to train up the no-go response. train up the no-go response. train up the no-go response. >> Absolutely. One of the things in my own >> Absolutely. One of the things in my own >> Absolutely. One of the things in my own life that I'm very aware of is and life that I'm very aware of is and life that I'm very aware of is and apppropo not doing is not taking out my apppropo not doing is not taking out my apppropo not doing is not taking out my phone. phone. phone. >> Uh and I'm very intentionally aware of >> Uh and I'm very intentionally aware of >> Uh and I'm very intentionally aware of that. I actually do a little practice of that. I actually do a little practice of that. I actually do a little practice of feeling my phone in my pocket and I feeling my phone in my pocket and I feeling my phone in my pocket and I really um will not take it out unless I really um will not take it out unless I really um will not take it out unless I actually need it. I remind people when I actually need it. I remind people when I actually need it. I remind people when I have meetings at our center, you know, have meetings at our center, you know, have meetings at our center, you know, often it's just the cultural habit often it's just the cultural habit often it's just the cultural habit particularly with young people. You particularly with young people. You particularly with young people. You know, they put their phone on the table know, they put their phone on the table know, they put their phone on the table and there are data showing that even if and there are data showing that even if and there are data showing that even if you have all your notifications turned you have all your notifications turned you have all your notifications turned off, the simple presence of the device off, the simple presence of the device off, the simple presence of the device is enough to uh impair the interaction is enough to uh impair the interaction is enough to uh impair the interaction in some way to have an discernable in some way to have an discernable in some way to have an discernable impact. impact. impact. >> And cognitive ability, there's this >> And cognitive ability, there's this >> And cognitive ability, there's this really I don't know if you've seen the really I don't know if you've seen the really I don't know if you've seen the study, it's pretty cool. They uh they study, it's pretty cool. They uh they study, it's pretty cool. They uh they looked at cognitive performance in looked at cognitive performance in looked at cognitive performance in people that had the phone upside down on people that had the phone upside down on people that had the phone upside down on the table in their backpack beneath the table in their backpack beneath the table in their backpack beneath their chair or in a different room. And their chair or in a different room. And their chair or in a different room. And only by having it in a different room, only by having it in a different room, only by having it in a different room, um do you see the the normal level of um do you see the the normal level of um do you see the the normal level of cognitive focus, not even an cognitive focus, not even an cognitive focus, not even an improvement. improvement. improvement. >> It turns out that people can focus just >> It turns out that people can focus just >> It turns out that people can focus just as well. It's really interesting. they as well. It's really interesting. they as well. It's really interesting. they focus just as well if the phone is on focus just as well if the phone is on focus just as well if the phone is on the table or under uh their chair in the table or under uh their chair in the table or under uh their chair in their backpack, but that the brain is their backpack, but that the brain is their backpack, but that the brain is using additional resources to keep using additional resources to keep using additional resources to keep suppressing the thought about the phone. suppressing the thought about the phone. suppressing the thought about the phone. So, their cognitive performance is So, their cognitive performance is So, their cognitive performance is diminished. diminished. diminished. >> So, the phone is really a cognitive >> So, the phone is really a cognitive >> So, the phone is really a cognitive detractor under those conditions. I detractor under those conditions. I detractor under those conditions. I think about that a lot. It's also why I think about that a lot. It's also why I think about that a lot. It's also why I have a lock box for my phone. I keep have a lock box for my phone. I keep have a lock box for my phone. I keep keep it in a separate room. It's one of keep it in a separate room. It's one of keep it in a separate room. It's one of the reasons I love this podcast more and the reasons I love this podcast more and the reasons I love this podcast more and more with every passing week because no more with every passing week because no more with every passing week because no phones in here. Uh we can really drop phones in here. Uh we can really drop phones in here. Uh we can really drop into things. Yeah. I think that um into things. Yeah. I think that um into things. Yeah. I think that um training the no-go response having that training the no-go response having that training the no-go response having that level of discipline is the superpower. level of discipline is the superpower. level of discipline is the superpower. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> All the other stuff, the to-dos, I mean, >> All the other stuff, the to-dos, I mean, >> All the other stuff, the to-dos, I mean, yeah, it's it's it's important. Can't yeah, it's it's it's important. Can't yeah, it's it's it's important. Can't just not do anything obviously, but we just not do anything obviously, but we just not do anything obviously, but we focus so much on what to take, what to focus so much on what to take, what to focus so much on what to take, what to do. People always want to know what do. People always want to know what do. People always want to know what should I take, you know, what should I should I take, you know, what should I should I take, you know, what should I do? What's the ideal workout routine? do? What's the ideal workout routine? do? What's the ideal workout routine? What's the And here we have this five What's the And here we have this five What's the And here we have this five minute a day meditation. Great. But it's minute a day meditation. Great. But it's minute a day meditation. Great. But it's also all the things you're not doing also all the things you're not doing also all the things you're not doing when you can sit for five minutes. when you can sit for five minutes. when you can sit for five minutes. You're not responding to the impulse to You're not responding to the impulse to You're not responding to the impulse to get up. get up. get up. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> The discomfort of body that can come up >> The discomfort of body that can come up >> The discomfort of body that can come up during meditation, a pain in the back, during meditation, a pain in the back, during meditation, a pain in the back, um, uh, your hip getting tight. Should um, uh, your hip getting tight. Should um, uh, your hip getting tight. Should we look at those as an opportunity to we look at those as an opportunity to we look at those as an opportunity to train up the mind and our ability to not train up the mind and our ability to not train up the mind and our ability to not go into stimulus response or should we go into stimulus response or should we go into stimulus response or should we get comfortable? get comfortable? get comfortable? >> It's a great question and uh uh you know >> It's a great question and uh uh you know >> It's a great question and uh uh you know my very first meditation retreat in 1974 my very first meditation retreat in 1974 my very first meditation retreat in 1974 that I just went into this cold and it that I just went into this cold and it that I just went into this cold and it was like meditation boot camp. Uh it was was like meditation boot camp. Uh it was was like meditation boot camp. Uh it was a kind of retreat where we were a kind of retreat where we were a kind of retreat where we were practicing for 16 hours a day and my practicing for 16 hours a day and my practicing for 16 hours a day and my body was on fire. I it was so painful body was on fire. I it was so painful body was on fire. I it was so painful physically that was you know the most physically that was you know the most physically that was you know the most predominant experience that I had it predominant experience that I had it predominant experience that I had it just intense intense physical pain and just intense intense physical pain and just intense intense physical pain and then in this style of practice after the then in this style of practice after the then in this style of practice after the third day you had to make a vow that third day you had to make a vow that third day you had to make a vow that you're not going to move during each you're not going to move during each you're not going to move during each hourong session so the meditation hourong session so the meditation hourong session so the meditation sessions were hour long and you had to sessions were hour long and you had to sessions were hour long and you had to make a vow that you're not going to move make a vow that you're not going to move make a vow that you're not going to move man the pain was so intense the physical man the pain was so intense the physical man the pain was so intense the physical pain and you You know, eventually uh pain and you You know, eventually uh pain and you You know, eventually uh after the like the fourth day, there's a after the like the fourth day, there's a after the like the fourth day, there's a kind of breakthrough that most people kind of breakthrough that most people kind of breakthrough that most people have uh which is this remarkable kind of have uh which is this remarkable kind of have uh which is this remarkable kind of experiential insight where you directly experiential insight where you directly experiential insight where you directly look at the pain and you see that it's look at the pain and you see that it's look at the pain and you see that it's not exactly what it's cracked up to be not exactly what it's cracked up to be not exactly what it's cracked up to be and uh it's actually much more and uh it's actually much more and uh it's actually much more differentiated and you begin to see all differentiated and you begin to see all differentiated and you begin to see all of its constituents and that's when of its constituents and that's when of its constituents and that's when there's a kind of release. The other there's a kind of release. The other there's a kind of release. The other thing to say is that thing to say is that thing to say is that we've done imaging work with physical we've done imaging work with physical we've done imaging work with physical pain and meditation. It's one of the pain and meditation. It's one of the pain and meditation. It's one of the most robust kind of probes that you can most robust kind of probes that you can most robust kind of probes that you can use to interrogate the quality of the use to interrogate the quality of the use to interrogate the quality of the practice and also the the longer term practice and also the the longer term practice and also the the longer term trade effects if you will. Um, and I trade effects if you will. Um, and I trade effects if you will. Um, and I liken it, by the way, you know, when you liken it, by the way, you know, when you liken it, by the way, you know, when you go to a cardiologist, you often do a go to a cardiologist, you often do a go to a cardiologist, you often do a cardiac stress test. Uh, and so one of cardiac stress test. Uh, and so one of cardiac stress test. Uh, and so one of the best ways to probe the integrity of the best ways to probe the integrity of the best ways to probe the integrity of a system is by challenging it. Um, uh, a system is by challenging it. Um, uh, a system is by challenging it. Um, uh, and not just looking at it at baseline, and not just looking at it at baseline, and not just looking at it at baseline, so to speak. And it's true of the mind so to speak. And it's true of the mind so to speak. And it's true of the mind and the brain. And one of the best and the brain. And one of the best and the brain. And one of the best challenges is physical pain. So we've challenges is physical pain. So we've challenges is physical pain. So we've done work where we've primarily used done work where we've primarily used done work where we've primarily used heat uh as a um a painful stimulus heat uh as a um a painful stimulus heat uh as a um a painful stimulus because it can be delivered very because it can be delivered very because it can be delivered very precisely and very safely. In imaging precisely and very safely. In imaging precisely and very safely. In imaging data there is a signature that is quite data there is a signature that is quite data there is a signature that is quite specifically tied to the physical pain specifically tied to the physical pain specifically tied to the physical pain itself and that there's another itself and that there's another itself and that there's another signature that is associated with the signature that is associated with the signature that is associated with the emotional reaction to the pain. emotional reaction to the pain. emotional reaction to the pain. >> The interpretation of it >> The interpretation of it >> The interpretation of it >> the interpretation. Got it. And when we >> the interpretation. Got it. And when we >> the interpretation. Got it. And when we subjectively subjectively subjectively experience distress in response to pain, experience distress in response to pain, experience distress in response to pain, it's actually mostly it's actually mostly it's actually mostly contributed by the secondary response. contributed by the secondary response. contributed by the secondary response. That is the emotional response to the That is the emotional response to the That is the emotional response to the initial noxious stimulus itself. And initial noxious stimulus itself. And initial noxious stimulus itself. And that is the set of neural changes that that is the set of neural changes that that is the set of neural changes that we most dramatically see transformed by we most dramatically see transformed by we most dramatically see transformed by meditation uh as a trade effect. uh and meditation uh as a trade effect. uh and meditation uh as a trade effect. uh and it's um particularly in this partic this it's um particularly in this partic this it's um particularly in this partic this is published data. We've we this was is published data. We've we this was is published data. We've we this was done with long-term meditation done with long-term meditation done with long-term meditation practitioners and we show that actually practitioners and we show that actually practitioners and we show that actually it's specifically retreat practice. it's specifically retreat practice. it's specifically retreat practice. So we can have two people who are So we can have two people who are So we can have two people who are matched on the total number of hours matched on the total number of hours matched on the total number of hours that they've practiced in a lifetime that they've practiced in a lifetime that they've practiced in a lifetime where in one person it is much more um where in one person it is much more um where in one person it is much more um during retreat compared to another during retreat compared to another during retreat compared to another person and it's specifically retreat person and it's specifically retreat person and it's specifically retreat practice where you're doing more practice where you're doing more practice where you're doing more intensive practice that contributes to intensive practice that contributes to intensive practice that contributes to the transformation of this emotional the transformation of this emotional the transformation of this emotional pain signature. pain signature. pain signature. >> What would a good retreat practice look >> What would a good retreat practice look >> What would a good retreat practice look like? It would be presumably a course, like? It would be presumably a course, like? It would be presumably a course, but I guess if somebody didn't have the but I guess if somebody didn't have the but I guess if somebody didn't have the resources, they could take a weekend. resources, they could take a weekend. resources, they could take a weekend. And what does that look like? They're And what does that look like? They're And what does that look like? They're meditating a couple hours a day, meditating a couple hours a day, meditating a couple hours a day, >> more than a couple of hours a day. >> more than a couple of hours a day. >> more than a couple of hours a day. >> Okay. So, it' be kind of hard to >> Okay. So, it' be kind of hard to >> Okay. So, it' be kind of hard to self-direct. self-direct. self-direct. >> Yeah. Although there are a lot of online >> Yeah. Although there are a lot of online >> Yeah. Although there are a lot of online resources uh for this and actually for a resources uh for this and actually for a resources uh for this and actually for a person who is unable for whatever reason person who is unable for whatever reason person who is unable for whatever reason to go physically to a retreat, there are to go physically to a retreat, there are to go physically to a retreat, there are online resources. But of course, you online resources. But of course, you online resources. But of course, you know, I think it's probably more know, I think it's probably more know, I think it's probably more beneficial to do it in person because beneficial to do it in person because beneficial to do it in person because you're more likely to comply with the uh you're more likely to comply with the uh you're more likely to comply with the uh with the expectations of like not with the expectations of like not with the expectations of like not checking your phone and things of that checking your phone and things of that checking your phone and things of that sort and being silent. sort and being silent. sort and being silent. >> I'm always impressed by people that can >> I'm always impressed by people that can >> I'm always impressed by people that can sort of self-direct so much discipline. sort of self-direct so much discipline. sort of self-direct so much discipline. It's pretty cool. I have rules in my It's pretty cool. I have rules in my It's pretty cool. I have rules in my house like I have a a study area in my house like I have a a study area in my house like I have a a study area in my basement where I draw and prepare basement where I draw and prepare basement where I draw and prepare podcasts and I I don't allow phones down podcasts and I I don't allow phones down podcasts and I I don't allow phones down there. Mine or anyone else's. there. Mine or anyone else's. there. Mine or anyone else's. >> That's wonderful. >> That's wonderful. >> That's wonderful. >> It's just it's an electronic free zone. >> It's just it's an electronic free zone. >> It's just it's an electronic free zone. I also now um I noticed I like working I also now um I noticed I like working I also now um I noticed I like working out. It's a pleasure for me. Um and I out. It's a pleasure for me. Um and I out. It's a pleasure for me. Um and I have a gym and I noticed that my have a gym and I noticed that my have a gym and I noticed that my workouts would take much longer if I workouts would take much longer if I workouts would take much longer if I brought my phone in. So now I allow brought my phone in. So now I allow brought my phone in. So now I allow myself to turn on an album or two and myself to turn on an album or two and myself to turn on an album or two and leave the phone outside, but there's no leave the phone outside, but there's no leave the phone outside, but there's no phones allowed there either. And now I'm phones allowed there either. And now I'm phones allowed there either. And now I'm thinking about also making that the rule thinking about also making that the rule thinking about also making that the rule for uh the loft for the bedroom, like no for uh the loft for the bedroom, like no for uh the loft for the bedroom, like no phones. So there's fewer and fewer areas phones. So there's fewer and fewer areas phones. So there's fewer and fewer areas where where things are allowed. But I where where things are allowed. But I where where things are allowed. But I think unless you set real constraints think unless you set real constraints think unless you set real constraints that it just starts to permeate that it just starts to permeate that it just starts to permeate everywhere. And I don't think I'm alone everywhere. And I don't think I'm alone everywhere. And I don't think I'm alone in that. And I grew up in Silicon in that. And I grew up in Silicon in that. And I grew up in Silicon Valley, so I'm not anti-technology. I Valley, so I'm not anti-technology. I Valley, so I'm not anti-technology. I just I want to have the richest just I want to have the richest just I want to have the richest experience of life possible. experience of life possible. experience of life possible. And so I just find that harder and And so I just find that harder and And so I just find that harder and harder to do when it's like inviting all harder to do when it's like inviting all harder to do when it's like inviting all these other things and people into the these other things and people into the these other things and people into the room when you when you have a phone room when you when you have a phone room when you when you have a phone there. Well, I love those examples and I there. Well, I love those examples and I there. Well, I love those examples and I think uh you know you are setting an think uh you know you are setting an think uh you know you are setting an inspiring example for others and I think inspiring example for others and I think inspiring example for others and I think that things have gotten so bad with uh that things have gotten so bad with uh that things have gotten so bad with uh the delletterious impact of technology the delletterious impact of technology the delletterious impact of technology that um you know we've we've been led to that um you know we've we've been led to that um you know we've we've been led to to do those kinds of things which I to do those kinds of things which I to do those kinds of things which I think are so important and I think the think are so important and I think the think are so important and I think the more examples of that the better. more examples of that the better. more examples of that the better. >> Yeah. I feel like um it took us a while >> Yeah. I feel like um it took us a while >> Yeah. I feel like um it took us a while to uh to become the country with such um to uh to become the country with such um to uh to become the country with such um excessively high rates of obesity that excessively high rates of obesity that excessively high rates of obesity that we finally went, "Oh my goodness," you we finally went, "Oh my goodness," you we finally went, "Oh my goodness," you know, and we need to do something about know, and we need to do something about know, and we need to do something about this. So, better eating, exercise, of this. So, better eating, exercise, of this. So, better eating, exercise, of course, critical. The GLP drugs have course, critical. The GLP drugs have course, critical. The GLP drugs have been, I believe, have been very helpful been, I believe, have been very helpful been, I believe, have been very helpful for a lot of people. I don't I would for a lot of people. I don't I would for a lot of people. I don't I would hope people first embrace lifestyle hope people first embrace lifestyle hope people first embrace lifestyle tools and then and in any case embrace tools and then and in any case embrace tools and then and in any case embrace lifestyle tools, but I don't think we're lifestyle tools, but I don't think we're lifestyle tools, but I don't think we're going to have the so-called ompic for um going to have the so-called ompic for um going to have the so-called ompic for um for uh addiction to devices. There isn't for uh addiction to devices. There isn't for uh addiction to devices. There isn't going to be something to come along and going to be something to come along and going to be something to come along and knock us off that uh place. I think it knock us off that uh place. I think it knock us off that uh place. I think it just requires a lot of self-control. just requires a lot of self-control. just requires a lot of self-control. >> But I can promise everyone that the work >> But I can promise everyone that the work >> But I can promise everyone that the work your workouts get way better, way your workouts get way better, way your workouts get way better, way better. Your work gets way better. I better. Your work gets way better. I better. Your work gets way better. I actually think that for the younger actually think that for the younger actually think that for the younger generation, it's become easier than ever generation, it's become easier than ever generation, it's become easier than ever to excel simply by not doing a lot of to excel simply by not doing a lot of to excel simply by not doing a lot of the things that other people around you the things that other people around you the things that other people around you are doing. are doing. are doing. >> Totally. Totally. >> Totally. Totally. >> Totally. Totally. >> You know, it's it's it used to be, you >> You know, it's it's it used to be, you >> You know, it's it's it used to be, you know, how do I succeed? How do I know, how do I succeed? How do I know, how do I succeed? How do I succeed? And you know, the I'm joking succeed? And you know, the I'm joking succeed? And you know, the I'm joking these days, the shortest um you know, these days, the shortest um you know, these days, the shortest um you know, how to become the best at your craft how to become the best at your craft how to become the best at your craft book is going to be uh by turning off book is going to be uh by turning off book is going to be uh by turning off your phone 22 hours a day, you will your phone 22 hours a day, you will your phone 22 hours a day, you will become best in class. I I I know it. become best in class. I I I know it. become best in class. I I I know it. >> I absolutely know it. And people say, >> I absolutely know it. And people say, >> I absolutely know it. And people say, "Well, then you can't access certain "Well, then you can't access certain "Well, then you can't access certain things." Is there ways around it? And um things." Is there ways around it? And um things." Is there ways around it? And um because it's really the the presence because it's really the the presence because it's really the the presence that you bring to things that um allows that you bring to things that um allows that you bring to things that um allows you to be effective. you to be effective. you to be effective. >> Yeah, absolutely. And regarding >> Yeah, absolutely. And regarding >> Yeah, absolutely. And regarding self-control, I think that self-control self-control, I think that self-control self-control, I think that self-control is a trainable skill. Uh and it is a is a trainable skill. Uh and it is a is a trainable skill. Uh and it is a byproduct of flourishing uh and one of byproduct of flourishing uh and one of byproduct of flourishing uh and one of the uh central capacities. I mean I we the uh central capacities. I mean I we the uh central capacities. I mean I we we talked about metawareness earlier and we talked about metawareness earlier and we talked about metawareness earlier and I think meta awareness is really a key I think meta awareness is really a key I think meta awareness is really a key ingredient for self-control and ingredient for self-control and ingredient for self-control and self-control will or self-regulation self-control will or self-regulation self-control will or self-regulation will improve as a consequence of that will improve as a consequence of that will improve as a consequence of that and that's a superpower. and that's a superpower. and that's a superpower. You know, there was a study done by You know, there was a study done by You know, there was a study done by these two psychologists, Moffett and these two psychologists, Moffett and these two psychologists, Moffett and Caspby, who uh are um developmental sort Caspby, who uh are um developmental sort Caspby, who uh are um developmental sort of lifespan psychologists, and they've of lifespan psychologists, and they've of lifespan psychologists, and they've been studying this cohort in Deneden, been studying this cohort in Deneden, been studying this cohort in Deneden, New Zealand. Uh it's a birth cohort. So, New Zealand. Uh it's a birth cohort. So, New Zealand. Uh it's a birth cohort. So, these folks have been studied since these folks have been studied since these folks have been studied since birth. They're now, I think, in their birth. They're now, I think, in their birth. They're now, I think, in their 60s. But there's amazing longitudinal 60s. But there's amazing longitudinal 60s. But there's amazing longitudinal data on on these people. And um they had data on on these people. And um they had data on on these people. And um they had a paper in PNAS uh a number of years ago a paper in PNAS uh a number of years ago a paper in PNAS uh a number of years ago that looked at measure behavioral that looked at measure behavioral that looked at measure behavioral measures of self-control in in these in measures of self-control in in these in measures of self-control in in these in this cohort when these people were four this cohort when these people were four this cohort when these people were four and five years of age. And this and five years of age. And this and five years of age. And this particular paper was looking at outcomes particular paper was looking at outcomes particular paper was looking at outcomes when they were 32 years of age. And what when they were 32 years of age. And what when they were 32 years of age. And what they found is that the individuals who they found is that the individuals who they found is that the individuals who are in the upper quintile of are in the upper quintile of are in the upper quintile of self-control self-control self-control at four four and five years of age had at four four and five years of age had at four four and five years of age had significantly less drug abuse, were significantly less drug abuse, were significantly less drug abuse, were significantly less likely to be involved significantly less likely to be involved significantly less likely to be involved in um in uh court proceedings. in um in uh court proceedings. in um in uh court proceedings. They earned on average $6,000 US more They earned on average $6,000 US more They earned on average $6,000 US more per year and they were matched on per year and they were matched on per year and they were matched on socioeconomic status of their families socioeconomic status of their families socioeconomic status of their families of birth. of birth. of birth. >> They were more successful >> They were more successful >> They were more successful >> more successful. So all these amazing >> more successful. So all these amazing >> more successful. So all these amazing outcomes uh and they I remember this outcomes uh and they I remember this outcomes uh and they I remember this paper was published many years ago but I paper was published many years ago but I paper was published many years ago but I remember the um there's a line in the remember the um there's a line in the remember the um there's a line in the paper that says um uh strategies which paper that says um uh strategies which paper that says um uh strategies which will improve self-control will lead to will improve self-control will lead to will improve self-control will lead to all these these uh important outcomes all these these uh important outcomes all these these uh important outcomes and save taxpayers money. I'd like to and save taxpayers money. I'd like to and save taxpayers money. I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one take a brief break and acknowledge one take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Waking Up. Waking up is of our sponsors, Waking Up. Waking up is of our sponsors, Waking Up. Waking up is a meditation app that offers hundreds of a meditation app that offers hundreds of a meditation app that offers hundreds of guided meditation programs, mindfulness guided meditation programs, mindfulness guided meditation programs, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and more. I started practicing meditation more. I started practicing meditation more. I started practicing meditation when I was about 15 years old, and it when I was about 15 years old, and it when I was about 15 years old, and it made a profound impact on my life. And made a profound impact on my life. And made a profound impact on my life. And by now, there are thousands of quality by now, there are thousands of quality by now, there are thousands of quality peer-reviewed studies that emphasize how peer-reviewed studies that emphasize how peer-reviewed studies that emphasize how useful mindfulness meditation can be for useful mindfulness meditation can be for useful mindfulness meditation can be for improving our focus, managing stress and improving our focus, managing stress and improving our focus, managing stress and anxiety, improving our mood, and much anxiety, improving our mood, and much anxiety, improving our mood, and much more. In recent years, I started using more. In recent years, I started using more. In recent years, I started using the Waking Up app for my meditations the Waking Up app for my meditations the Waking Up app for my meditations because I find it to be a terrific because I find it to be a terrific because I find it to be a terrific resource for allowing me to really be resource for allowing me to really be resource for allowing me to really be consistent with my meditation practice. consistent with my meditation practice. consistent with my meditation practice. Many people start a meditation practice Many people start a meditation practice Many people start a meditation practice and experience some benefits, but many and experience some benefits, but many and experience some benefits, but many people also have challenges keeping up people also have challenges keeping up people also have challenges keeping up with that practice. What I and so many with that practice. What I and so many with that practice. What I and so many other people love about the Waking Up other people love about the Waking Up other people love about the Waking Up app is that it has a lot of different app is that it has a lot of different app is that it has a lot of different meditations to choose from. And those meditations to choose from. And those meditations to choose from. And those meditations are of different durations. meditations are of different durations. meditations are of different durations. So, it makes it very easy to keep up So, it makes it very easy to keep up So, it makes it very easy to keep up with your meditation practice both from with your meditation practice both from with your meditation practice both from the perspective of novelty. You never the perspective of novelty. You never the perspective of novelty. You never get tired of those meditations. There's get tired of those meditations. There's get tired of those meditations. There's always something new to explore and to always something new to explore and to always something new to explore and to learn about yourself and about the learn about yourself and about the learn about yourself and about the effectiveness of meditation. And you can effectiveness of meditation. And you can effectiveness of meditation. And you can always fit meditation into your always fit meditation into your always fit meditation into your schedule, even if you only have two or schedule, even if you only have two or schedule, even if you only have two or three minutes per day in which to three minutes per day in which to three minutes per day in which to meditate. If you'd like to try the meditate. If you'd like to try the meditate. If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, please go to Waking Up app, please go to Waking Up app, please go to wakingup.com/huberman, wakingup.com/huberman, wakingup.com/huberman, where you can access a free 30-day where you can access a free 30-day where you can access a free 30-day trial. Again, that's trial. Again, that's trial. Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman wakingup.com/huberman wakingup.com/huberman to access a free 30-day trial. Super to access a free 30-day trial. Super to access a free 30-day trial. Super impressive. And I do think that um impressive. And I do think that um impressive. And I do think that um nowadays we hear so much about the dos. nowadays we hear so much about the dos. nowadays we hear so much about the dos. You need exercise, you eat this and do You need exercise, you eat this and do You need exercise, you eat this and do and five minutes a day meditation. I and five minutes a day meditation. I and five minutes a day meditation. I think the self-control component that's think the self-control component that's think the self-control component that's an outgrowth of meditation seems like a an outgrowth of meditation seems like a an outgrowth of meditation seems like a distinct benefit of meditation because distinct benefit of meditation because distinct benefit of meditation because when you're exercising, yeah, I suppose when you're exercising, yeah, I suppose when you're exercising, yeah, I suppose if you if you really hate it and you're if you if you really hate it and you're if you if you really hate it and you're constantly forcing yourself not to quit, constantly forcing yourself not to quit, constantly forcing yourself not to quit, that's a form of self-control. I feel that's a form of self-control. I feel that's a form of self-control. I feel like most people once they get going, like most people once they get going, like most people once they get going, they're kind of moving through it. But they're kind of moving through it. But they're kind of moving through it. But who knows? I do want to um use this this who knows? I do want to um use this this who knows? I do want to um use this this notion of self-control as an opportunity notion of self-control as an opportunity notion of self-control as an opportunity to look at the other side of it. And I to look at the other side of it. And I to look at the other side of it. And I was planning on doing this at some was planning on doing this at some was planning on doing this at some point. I think now is the point. I'm point. I think now is the point. I'm point. I think now is the point. I'm fundamentally confused about something fundamentally confused about something fundamentally confused about something about life. Maybe you can help me. Um, about life. Maybe you can help me. Um, about life. Maybe you can help me. Um, I'm still not sure how much of life of a I'm still not sure how much of life of a I'm still not sure how much of life of a really good life should be forcing really good life should be forcing really good life should be forcing ourselves to do things versus ourselves to do things versus ourselves to do things versus kind of quote unquote honoring what kind of quote unquote honoring what kind of quote unquote honoring what what's right for us. Now, obviously, you what's right for us. Now, obviously, you what's right for us. Now, obviously, you know, with respect to morality, with know, with respect to morality, with know, with respect to morality, with respect to the, you know, the the big respect to the, you know, the the big respect to the, you know, the the big stuff in life, that's those are easy stuff in life, that's those are easy stuff in life, that's those are easy answers, okay? But when it comes to answers, okay? But when it comes to answers, okay? But when it comes to moving through the day, we're we're now moving through the day, we're we're now moving through the day, we're we're now talking here today about starting the talking here today about starting the talking here today about starting the day doing something that you probably day doing something that you probably day doing something that you probably don't want to do or that you would don't want to do or that you would don't want to do or that you would reflexively not do as a means to gain reflexively not do as a means to gain reflexively not do as a means to gain some other larger benefit. Um, we're some other larger benefit. Um, we're some other larger benefit. Um, we're talking about going against the reflex, talking about going against the reflex, talking about going against the reflex, against the impulse. against the impulse. against the impulse. in the Buddhist traditions, in in the Buddhist traditions, in in the Buddhist traditions, in the field of meditation, how is this the field of meditation, how is this the field of meditation, how is this kind of thought about? And just kind of thought about? And just kind of thought about? And just personally, how do you think about this? personally, how do you think about this? personally, how do you think about this? Because I think a lot of people Because I think a lot of people Because I think a lot of people listening are probably thinking, "Okay, listening are probably thinking, "Okay, listening are probably thinking, "Okay, great." Like, I'll I'll do this if it great." Like, I'll I'll do this if it great." Like, I'll I'll do this if it gives me some benefits. I'll lower my gives me some benefits. I'll lower my gives me some benefits. I'll lower my heart rate. I'll have less stress. I'll heart rate. I'll have less stress. I'll heart rate. I'll have less stress. I'll learn some additional self-control. But learn some additional self-control. But learn some additional self-control. But I think people are also feeling I think people are also feeling I think people are also feeling overwhelmed with all the stuff they feel overwhelmed with all the stuff they feel overwhelmed with all the stuff they feel like they have to do and fight like they have to do and fight like they have to do and fight themselves. And I think people are tired themselves. And I think people are tired themselves. And I think people are tired of fighting. And I think part of the of fighting. And I think part of the of fighting. And I think part of the reason they're tired of fighting is that reason they're tired of fighting is that reason they're tired of fighting is that they're not picking up the phone and they're not picking up the phone and they're not picking up the phone and going, "Oh, this is cool. This is cool. going, "Oh, this is cool. This is cool. going, "Oh, this is cool. This is cool. This is great. This is great." I think This is great. This is great." I think This is great. This is great." I think that they're they feel slightly out of that they're they feel slightly out of that they're they feel slightly out of control control control that they're just can't resist it and that they're just can't resist it and that they're just can't resist it and it's just happening. And so we've lost it's just happening. And so we've lost it's just happening. And so we've lost the muscle, so to speak, the mental the muscle, so to speak, the mental the muscle, so to speak, the mental muscle of resistance. But I think that muscle of resistance. But I think that muscle of resistance. But I think that of overcoming resistance. Um, of overcoming resistance. Um, of overcoming resistance. Um, but it's also kind of a philosophical but it's also kind of a philosophical but it's also kind of a philosophical question. I mean, how much of our lives question. I mean, how much of our lives question. I mean, how much of our lives should we be forcing things upon should we be forcing things upon should we be forcing things upon ourselves to be better? And how much of ourselves to be better? And how much of ourselves to be better? And how much of life should we just live and and be free life should we just live and and be free life should we just live and and be free like a like a bulldog, which is the best like a like a bulldog, which is the best like a like a bulldog, which is the best breed of dog? breed of dog? breed of dog? >> When I first started meditating, I was >> When I first started meditating, I was >> When I first started meditating, I was fighting with my mind. Uh, and I thought fighting with my mind. Uh, and I thought fighting with my mind. Uh, and I thought that that was great. you know, I'm this that that was great. you know, I'm this that that was great. you know, I'm this is uh means I'm really doing the work is uh means I'm really doing the work is uh means I'm really doing the work that's necessary and sitting through the that's necessary and sitting through the that's necessary and sitting through the physical pain, you know, forcing myself physical pain, you know, forcing myself physical pain, you know, forcing myself to sit for an hour while my, you know, to sit for an hour while my, you know, to sit for an hour while my, you know, feeling like my knee was on fire. Um, feeling like my knee was on fire. Um, feeling like my knee was on fire. Um, and my back was killing me. And, you and my back was killing me. And, you and my back was killing me. And, you know, I had a kind of sense of pride. know, I had a kind of sense of pride. know, I had a kind of sense of pride. I'm able to just uh tough this out. Um, I'm able to just uh tough this out. Um, I'm able to just uh tough this out. Um, and I was miserable. You know, I did and I was miserable. You know, I did and I was miserable. You know, I did that kind of practice for quite some that kind of practice for quite some that kind of practice for quite some time and it may have had some benefit uh time and it may have had some benefit uh time and it may have had some benefit uh in shaping my skills of self-control. in shaping my skills of self-control. in shaping my skills of self-control. But, you know, at some point I But, you know, at some point I But, you know, at some point I discovered that maybe there's another discovered that maybe there's another discovered that maybe there's another strategy that can be effective that is strategy that can be effective that is strategy that can be effective that is um that that's not about fighting with um that that's not about fighting with um that that's not about fighting with your mind and not about fixing anything, your mind and not about fixing anything, your mind and not about fixing anything, but it's the invitation is really to but it's the invitation is really to but it's the invitation is really to make friends with your mind, to welcome make friends with your mind, to welcome make friends with your mind, to welcome this, to have a completely different this, to have a completely different this, to have a completely different stance toward it and to do it with ease. stance toward it and to do it with ease. stance toward it and to do it with ease. rather than with rather than with rather than with you know um this kind of attention you know um this kind of attention you know um this kind of attention stance. I think that that is possible stance. I think that that is possible stance. I think that that is possible uh and and the approach that we are uh and and the approach that we are uh and and the approach that we are taking in the healthy minds program for taking in the healthy minds program for taking in the healthy minds program for example is we're trying to do that. So example is we're trying to do that. So example is we're trying to do that. So there is a bit of discipline involved there is a bit of discipline involved there is a bit of discipline involved but it's kind of um really at at the but it's kind of um really at at the but it's kind of um really at at the most minimal. It's inviting people to uh most minimal. It's inviting people to uh most minimal. It's inviting people to uh to be where they are not and not and to to be where they are not and not and to to be where they are not and not and to really um make friends with their mind really um make friends with their mind really um make friends with their mind uh and not to fight against it. It's not uh and not to fight against it. It's not uh and not to fight against it. It's not about pushing away thoughts. It's not about pushing away thoughts. It's not about pushing away thoughts. It's not about um you know sitting down to about um you know sitting down to about um you know sitting down to meditate. If if you if you're restless meditate. If if you if you're restless meditate. If if you if you're restless and can't sit, that's fine. Do it while and can't sit, that's fine. Do it while and can't sit, that's fine. Do it while you're walking. So the discipline is the you're walking. So the discipline is the you're walking. So the discipline is the intentional use of the mind. Um and intentional use of the mind. Um and intentional use of the mind. Um and there is discipline involved in that. there is discipline involved in that. there is discipline involved in that. But it's kind of what is the minimum But it's kind of what is the minimum But it's kind of what is the minimum level of discipline to begin to get level of discipline to begin to get level of discipline to begin to get these networks going. these networks going. these networks going. >> And that's kind of the question that >> And that's kind of the question that >> And that's kind of the question that we've asked. we've asked. we've asked. >> Yeah. because your lab has been focused >> Yeah. because your lab has been focused >> Yeah. because your lab has been focused heavily on the neuroiming and heavily on the neuroiming and heavily on the neuroiming and understanding what brain networks are understanding what brain networks are understanding what brain networks are activated as well as the positive activated as well as the positive activated as well as the positive outcomes. So this five minute a day outcomes. So this five minute a day outcomes. So this five minute a day meditation meditation meditation could be done eyes open could be done could be done eyes open could be done could be done eyes open could be done eyes closed could be done while you're eyes closed could be done while you're eyes closed could be done while you're walking while you're commuting walking while you're commuting walking while you're commuting >> and it shuts down the sort of default >> and it shuts down the sort of default >> and it shuts down the sort of default mode network and brings higher levels of mode network and brings higher levels of mode network and brings higher levels of activity in in these awareness and activity in in these awareness and activity in in these awareness and attentional networks is that I broadly attentional networks is that I broadly attentional networks is that I broadly speaking I'm a neuroscientist but I want speaking I'm a neuroscientist but I want speaking I'm a neuroscientist but I want to translate this for for people because to translate this for for people because to translate this for for people because the names of the structures actually the names of the structures actually the names of the structures actually >> are somewhat meaningless right unless >> are somewhat meaningless right unless >> are somewhat meaningless right unless we're we're we're we're we're we're >> exactly we would got someone in a >> exactly we would got someone in a >> exactly we would got someone in a stereotax, right? So, yeah, stereotax, right? So, yeah, stereotax, right? So, yeah, >> just to be uh transparently honest, >> just to be uh transparently honest, >> just to be uh transparently honest, there's been very little imaging work on there's been very little imaging work on there's been very little imaging work on the five minutes per day. We've done the five minutes per day. We've done the five minutes per day. We've done some uh and what we've seen in the work some uh and what we've seen in the work some uh and what we've seen in the work we've done is the biggest and in general we've done is the biggest and in general we've done is the biggest and in general I think this is true. The biggest I think this is true. The biggest I think this is true. The biggest changes that you see particularly in the changes that you see particularly in the changes that you see particularly in the early stages of practice are in measures early stages of practice are in measures early stages of practice are in measures of connectivity. And it could be of connectivity. And it could be of connectivity. And it could be functional connectivity which um uh has functional connectivity which um uh has functional connectivity which um uh has to do with the functional integration to do with the functional integration to do with the functional integration across different networks or it could be across different networks or it could be across different networks or it could be in measures of actual structural in measures of actual structural in measures of actual structural connectivity that we can image with connectivity that we can image with connectivity that we can image with diffusion weighted imaging uh and diffusion weighted imaging uh and diffusion weighted imaging uh and looking at white matter uh connectivity. looking at white matter uh connectivity. looking at white matter uh connectivity. And what we've actually seen with the And what we've actually seen with the And what we've actually seen with the five minutes a day is changes in um in five minutes a day is changes in um in five minutes a day is changes in um in diffusion weighted imaging looking uh at diffusion weighted imaging looking uh at diffusion weighted imaging looking uh at uh I mean the biggest change we see is uh I mean the biggest change we see is uh I mean the biggest change we see is in the superior longitudinal faciculus in the superior longitudinal faciculus in the superior longitudinal faciculus which um as you know Andrew connects the which um as you know Andrew connects the which um as you know Andrew connects the the preffrontal and the parietal regions the preffrontal and the parietal regions the preffrontal and the parietal regions and it's basically a major pathway and it's basically a major pathway and it's basically a major pathway through which the central executive through which the central executive through which the central executive network is um interacting with the network is um interacting with the network is um interacting with the default mode and that's what we See with default mode and that's what we See with default mode and that's what we See with just 5 minutes a day of practice, we can just 5 minutes a day of practice, we can just 5 minutes a day of practice, we can see measurable changes in diffusion see measurable changes in diffusion see measurable changes in diffusion weighted parameters with just 5 minutes weighted parameters with just 5 minutes weighted parameters with just 5 minutes a day for a month. It's super a day for a month. It's super a day for a month. It's super impressive. More and more incentive to impressive. More and more incentive to impressive. More and more incentive to doing the five minutes a day meditation. doing the five minutes a day meditation. doing the five minutes a day meditation. I guess that's the protocol we're I guess that's the protocol we're I guess that's the protocol we're weaving through this entire episode. And weaving through this entire episode. And weaving through this entire episode. And of course, people could do seven, could of course, people could do seven, could of course, people could do seven, could do 10. I'd like to see people do six do 10. I'd like to see people do six do 10. I'd like to see people do six months every day. That would be months every day. That would be months every day. That would be impressive. That's what I'm going to impressive. That's what I'm going to impressive. That's what I'm going to shoot for. shoot for. shoot for. >> Six months every day. >> Six months every day. >> Six months every day. >> Yeah. just do five minutes a day for, >> Yeah. just do five minutes a day for, >> Yeah. just do five minutes a day for, you know, hit 30 days you know, hit 30 days you know, hit 30 days >> and then six months later, >> and then six months later, >> and then six months later, >> I don't know. I I feel like if it's just >> I don't know. I I feel like if it's just >> I don't know. I I feel like if it's just the repeated showing up, I that's really the repeated showing up, I that's really the repeated showing up, I that's really it. I mean, I have a prayer practice I it. I mean, I have a prayer practice I it. I mean, I have a prayer practice I do every night before I go to sleep. If do every night before I go to sleep. If do every night before I go to sleep. If I fall asleep, I get out of bed. My I fall asleep, I get out of bed. My I fall asleep, I get out of bed. My girlfriend knows this. I'll get out of girlfriend knows this. I'll get out of girlfriend knows this. I'll get out of bed and I pray. Like, I've not missed a bed and I pray. Like, I've not missed a bed and I pray. Like, I've not missed a night since I started doing this. night since I started doing this. night since I started doing this. >> I love that. I think that's beautiful. >> I love that. I think that's beautiful. >> I love that. I think that's beautiful. And I, you know, I'd love to see a study And I, you know, I'd love to see a study And I, you know, I'd love to see a study done with pre-le prayer and see how it done with pre-le prayer and see how it done with pre-le prayer and see how it affects sleep. affects sleep. affects sleep. >> My sleep is definitely better than ever, >> My sleep is definitely better than ever, >> My sleep is definitely better than ever, but there probably a variety of reasons but there probably a variety of reasons but there probably a variety of reasons for that. for that. for that. >> But sometimes I find that I'm falling >> But sometimes I find that I'm falling >> But sometimes I find that I'm falling asleep while I'm praying asleep while I'm praying asleep while I'm praying >> and I just tell myself, okay, just it's >> and I just tell myself, okay, just it's >> and I just tell myself, okay, just it's the consistency. It's like I I I have the consistency. It's like I I I have the consistency. It's like I I I have this script in my head that I'm showing this script in my head that I'm showing this script in my head that I'm showing devotion by showing up. devotion by showing up. devotion by showing up. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's just a repeated showing up. And >> It's just a repeated showing up. And >> It's just a repeated showing up. And it's one of the few areas of my life it's one of the few areas of my life it's one of the few areas of my life that I was able to really remove the the that I was able to really remove the the that I was able to really remove the the need to do it perfectly. I mean, what need to do it perfectly. I mean, what need to do it perfectly. I mean, what what would that even look like? I what would that even look like? I what would that even look like? I realize how ridiculous that is, right? realize how ridiculous that is, right? realize how ridiculous that is, right? But um some perfectionist But um some perfectionist But um some perfectionist tendencies in me, you know, we're tendencies in me, you know, we're tendencies in me, you know, we're showing up. Um so for me, the um I won't showing up. Um so for me, the um I won't showing up. Um so for me, the um I won't even say the the pride in it, the joy in even say the the pride in it, the joy in even say the the pride in it, the joy in it is from the consistency. it is from the consistency. it is from the consistency. >> Yeah, I love that. And I feel exactly >> Yeah, I love that. And I feel exactly >> Yeah, I love that. And I feel exactly the same way in my consistent practice. the same way in my consistent practice. the same way in my consistent practice. I think that's so important. I wanted to I think that's so important. I wanted to I think that's so important. I wanted to mention one thing about sleepiness mention one thing about sleepiness mention one thing about sleepiness because you mentioned that sometimes because you mentioned that sometimes because you mentioned that sometimes when you're doing the nightly prayer when you're doing the nightly prayer when you're doing the nightly prayer you're uh sleepy and and sleep you're uh sleepy and and sleep you're uh sleepy and and sleep sleepiness is is often uh something sleepiness is is often uh something sleepiness is is often uh something reported when people are meditating and reported when people are meditating and reported when people are meditating and particularly in the early stages of particularly in the early stages of particularly in the early stages of practice and uh you know I've uh dealt practice and uh you know I've uh dealt practice and uh you know I've uh dealt with sleepiness a lot uh uh and with sleepiness a lot uh uh and with sleepiness a lot uh uh and particularly before I changed my routine particularly before I changed my routine particularly before I changed my routine of and when I gave up the alarm clock of and when I gave up the alarm clock of and when I gave up the alarm clock because I was getting too little sleep because I was getting too little sleep because I was getting too little sleep deprived. deprived. deprived. >> Yeah, exactly. And I felt it and I >> Yeah, exactly. And I felt it and I >> Yeah, exactly. And I felt it and I struggled with it. So I have this struggled with it. So I have this struggled with it. So I have this meditation um teacher Mingar who uh one meditation um teacher Mingar who uh one meditation um teacher Mingar who uh one of the things he's taught is um is sleep of the things he's taught is um is sleep of the things he's taught is um is sleep sleepiness meditation. Uh and sleepiness sleepiness meditation. Uh and sleepiness sleepiness meditation. Uh and sleepiness meditation is simply to be aware of meditation is simply to be aware of meditation is simply to be aware of sleepiness. sleepiness. sleepiness. >> Just be aware of sleepiness. Uh and uh >> Just be aware of sleepiness. Uh and uh >> Just be aware of sleepiness. Uh and uh and don't try to fight it. just simply and don't try to fight it. just simply and don't try to fight it. just simply notice what it what is sleepiness, what notice what it what is sleepiness, what notice what it what is sleepiness, what is how is it feeling and um investigate is how is it feeling and um investigate is how is it feeling and um investigate it with curiosity and that completely it with curiosity and that completely it with curiosity and that completely changed things for me. There does seem changed things for me. There does seem changed things for me. There does seem to be this this thing where when we to be this this thing where when we to be this this thing where when we fight our state or our nature, it gains fight our state or our nature, it gains fight our state or our nature, it gains power. power. power. >> Yeah. But when we we don't want to give >> Yeah. But when we we don't want to give >> Yeah. But when we we don't want to give into it, but when you acknowledge it, into it, but when you acknowledge it, into it, but when you acknowledge it, but you don't completely give into it, but you don't completely give into it, but you don't completely give into it, somehow it it changes. Martha Beck was somehow it it changes. Martha Beck was somehow it it changes. Martha Beck was the first person to really teach me this the first person to really teach me this the first person to really teach me this first in her books and then on the first in her books and then on the first in her books and then on the podcast. podcast. podcast. >> This idea that like if if a feeling >> This idea that like if if a feeling >> This idea that like if if a feeling sucks or you don't want it to be there, sucks or you don't want it to be there, sucks or you don't want it to be there, that rather than trying to suppress it, that rather than trying to suppress it, that rather than trying to suppress it, you really look at it and let yourself you really look at it and let yourself you really look at it and let yourself feel it until it changes shape just a feel it until it changes shape just a feel it until it changes shape just a little bit. Her language. little bit. Her language. little bit. Her language. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then you start to look at it through >> And then you start to look at it through >> And then you start to look at it through that different slightly different lens. that different slightly different lens. that different slightly different lens. And then it morphs and it goes away. And then it morphs and it goes away. And then it morphs and it goes away. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> And I think in her des I didn't again >> And I think in her des I didn't again >> And I think in her des I didn't again didn't describe it as well as as she uh didn't describe it as well as as she uh didn't describe it as well as as she uh did or would or could, but what we're did or would or could, but what we're did or would or could, but what we're talking about over and over again today talking about over and over again today talking about over and over again today is the mind looking at the mind and it is the mind looking at the mind and it is the mind looking at the mind and it does seem to have this ability to, you does seem to have this ability to, you does seem to have this ability to, you know, humans have this ability. Do you know, humans have this ability. Do you know, humans have this ability. Do you think other animals have this ability? I think other animals have this ability? I think other animals have this ability? I know you can't answer that qu question know you can't answer that qu question know you can't answer that qu question for sure, but do you think one of the for sure, but do you think one of the for sure, but do you think one of the reasons dogs are so wonderful is because reasons dogs are so wonderful is because reasons dogs are so wonderful is because they're not self-conscious? they're not self-conscious? they're not self-conscious? >> My conjecture is that um that our >> My conjecture is that um that our >> My conjecture is that um that our ability to uh look at our minds is way ability to uh look at our minds is way ability to uh look at our minds is way more developed than in any other more developed than in any other more developed than in any other species. And there may be some species. And there may be some species. And there may be some rudimentary kinds of metaareness rudimentary kinds of metaareness rudimentary kinds of metaareness in other species. And you know some in other species. And you know some in other species. And you know some scientists have suggested that it may be scientists have suggested that it may be scientists have suggested that it may be correlated with successful performance correlated with successful performance correlated with successful performance on the self test. You know uh on the self test. You know uh on the self test. You know uh recognizing yourself in the mirror. You recognizing yourself in the mirror. You recognizing yourself in the mirror. You know there's a recent report of know there's a recent report of know there's a recent report of elephants passing the self test. elephants passing the self test. elephants passing the self test. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> so they are smart after all. >> so they are smart after all. >> so they are smart after all. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and you know that's an interesting >> Um and you know that's an interesting >> Um and you know that's an interesting story. They did this actually in the story. They did this actually in the story. They did this actually in the Bronx Zoo in New York and they had to Bronx Zoo in New York and they had to Bronx Zoo in New York and they had to construct a mirror that was the size of construct a mirror that was the size of construct a mirror that was the size of an elephant to an elephant to an elephant to >> how do they know if the elephant knows >> how do they know if the elephant knows >> how do they know if the elephant knows it's itself because they don't attack it it's itself because they don't attack it it's itself because they don't attack it if it's itself. if it's itself. if it's itself. >> So they they put rouge >> So they they put rouge >> So they they put rouge >> on the trunk and they expose the >> on the trunk and they expose the >> on the trunk and they expose the elephant to the mirror and if the elephant to the mirror and if the elephant to the mirror and if the elephant touches the point where the elephant touches the point where the elephant touches the point where the rouge is, it's recognizing itself in the rouge is, it's recognizing itself in the rouge is, it's recognizing itself in the mirror. And there are very few species mirror. And there are very few species mirror. And there are very few species that um pass the self test in that way. that um pass the self test in that way. that um pass the self test in that way. Most species don't. We were talking Most species don't. We were talking Most species don't. We were talking offline a little bit earlier about a offline a little bit earlier about a offline a little bit earlier about a course that you're teaching about this course that you're teaching about this course that you're teaching about this very thing that you're calling very thing that you're calling very thing that you're calling flourishing. So what do the students get flourishing. So what do the students get flourishing. So what do the students get in that course and what components could in that course and what components could in that course and what components could you possibly educate us on right here you possibly educate us on right here you possibly educate us on right here right now so that we can benefit without right now so that we can benefit without right now so that we can benefit without having the opportunity to take the having the opportunity to take the having the opportunity to take the course? course? course? >> Yeah, absolutely. So the course is built >> Yeah, absolutely. So the course is built >> Yeah, absolutely. So the course is built on a framework that uh we've developed on a framework that uh we've developed on a framework that uh we've developed on the plasticity of flourishing. on the plasticity of flourishing. on the plasticity of flourishing. >> It holds that there are four key pillars >> It holds that there are four key pillars >> It holds that there are four key pillars of human flourishing and each of these of human flourishing and each of these of human flourishing and each of these pillars exhibits plasticity and these pillars exhibits plasticity and these pillars exhibits plasticity and these are the key trainable ingredients that are the key trainable ingredients that are the key trainable ingredients that constitute human flourishing. So what constitute human flourishing. So what constitute human flourishing. So what are these four pillars? The first pillar are these four pillars? The first pillar are these four pillars? The first pillar is and we've talked about some in the is and we've talked about some in the is and we've talked about some in the course of our conversation already but course of our conversation already but course of our conversation already but the first we call awareness the first we call awareness the first we call awareness >> and awareness is where mindfulness is >> and awareness is where mindfulness is >> and awareness is where mindfulness is would be it's where voluntary attention would be it's where voluntary attention would be it's where voluntary attention the capacity to focus resides and it the capacity to focus resides and it the capacity to focus resides and it also includes our capacity for also includes our capacity for also includes our capacity for self-awareness and for meta awareness self-awareness and for meta awareness self-awareness and for meta awareness which we've spoken about. The second which we've spoken about. The second which we've spoken about. The second pillar we call connection. And pillar we call connection. And pillar we call connection. And connection is about the qualities which connection is about the qualities which connection is about the qualities which are important for healthy social are important for healthy social are important for healthy social relationships. Uh qualities like relationships. Uh qualities like relationships. Uh qualities like appreciation and gratitude and kindness appreciation and gratitude and kindness appreciation and gratitude and kindness and compassion. You can think of the the and compassion. You can think of the the and compassion. You can think of the the opposite of that being um at least in opposite of that being um at least in opposite of that being um at least in part social isolation and loneliness. part social isolation and loneliness. part social isolation and loneliness. Again, these are elements that we know Again, these are elements that we know Again, these are elements that we know can be trained. They are importantly can be trained. They are importantly can be trained. They are importantly connected to our well-being. The third connected to our well-being. The third connected to our well-being. The third pillar we call insight. And insight is pillar we call insight. And insight is pillar we call insight. And insight is about a curiositydriven about a curiositydriven about a curiositydriven understanding of the narrative that all understanding of the narrative that all understanding of the narrative that all human beings have about themselves. Uh human beings have about themselves. Uh human beings have about themselves. Uh the narrative that we carry around in the narrative that we carry around in the narrative that we carry around in our minds. And we know that we all have our minds. And we know that we all have our minds. And we know that we all have a set of beliefs and expectations of a set of beliefs and expectations of a set of beliefs and expectations of ourselves. And we know that at one ourselves. And we know that at one ourselves. And we know that at one extreme of the continuum, there are extreme of the continuum, there are extreme of the continuum, there are people that have very negative beliefs people that have very negative beliefs people that have very negative beliefs and expectations of themselves. And of and expectations of themselves. And of and expectations of themselves. And of course, that's her prescription for course, that's her prescription for course, that's her prescription for depression. But what's really critical depression. But what's really critical depression. But what's really critical for well-being is not so much changing for well-being is not so much changing for well-being is not so much changing the narrative, particularly at first, the narrative, particularly at first, the narrative, particularly at first, but it's changing our relationship to but it's changing our relationship to but it's changing our relationship to the narrative the narrative the narrative >> so that we can see the narrative for >> so that we can see the narrative for >> so that we can see the narrative for what it is, which is a set of beliefs what it is, which is a set of beliefs what it is, which is a set of beliefs and thoughts and expectations. And then and thoughts and expectations. And then and thoughts and expectations. And then finally, the last pillar is purpose. And finally, the last pillar is purpose. And finally, the last pillar is purpose. And purpose here is not necessarily about purpose here is not necessarily about purpose here is not necessarily about finding something grand to do with your finding something grand to do with your finding something grand to do with your life that's more meaningful and life that's more meaningful and life that's more meaningful and purposeful, but rather how can we find purposeful, but rather how can we find purposeful, but rather how can we find meaning and purpose in even the most meaning and purpose in even the most meaning and purpose in even the most pedestrian activities of daily living? pedestrian activities of daily living? pedestrian activities of daily living? And we actually talked about some of And we actually talked about some of And we actually talked about some of this earlier, but can taking out the this earlier, but can taking out the this earlier, but can taking out the garbage be connected to our sense of garbage be connected to our sense of garbage be connected to our sense of purpose? purpose? purpose? >> Cleaning the kitty litter. >> Cleaning the kitty litter. >> Cleaning the kitty litter. >> Cleaning the kitty litter. And of course >> Cleaning the kitty litter. And of course >> Cleaning the kitty litter. And of course it can be. It just requires a little bit it can be. It just requires a little bit it can be. It just requires a little bit of reframing and that's a learnable of reframing and that's a learnable of reframing and that's a learnable skill. There are really three things skill. There are really three things skill. There are really three things that we've discovered in this work uh uh that we've discovered in this work uh uh that we've discovered in this work uh uh that can be easily summarized. The first that can be easily summarized. The first that can be easily summarized. The first is that flourishing is a skill. The is that flourishing is a skill. The is that flourishing is a skill. The second is that it's easier than you second is that it's easier than you second is that it's easier than you think. And the third is that flourishing think. And the third is that flourishing think. And the third is that flourishing is contagious. So that when you're is contagious. So that when you're is contagious. So that when you're flourishing, it's going to have flourishing, it's going to have flourishing, it's going to have beneficial impact on the people around beneficial impact on the people around beneficial impact on the people around you. And our course, the art and science you. And our course, the art and science you. And our course, the art and science of human flourishing, is built on each of human flourishing, is built on each of human flourishing, is built on each of these pillars to give students uh not of these pillars to give students uh not of these pillars to give students uh not just um an intellectual understanding, just um an intellectual understanding, just um an intellectual understanding, but an experiential but an experiential but an experiential uh um practice, a taste of what these uh um practice, a taste of what these uh um practice, a taste of what these pillars actually are. One of the pillars actually are. One of the pillars actually are. One of the important insights that the course is important insights that the course is important insights that the course is built on is that there are two major built on is that there are two major built on is that there are two major forms of learning that we know from forms of learning that we know from forms of learning that we know from modern neuroscience. One we can think of modern neuroscience. One we can think of modern neuroscience. One we can think of as declarative learning which is as declarative learning which is as declarative learning which is learning about stuff. It's conceptual learning about stuff. It's conceptual learning about stuff. It's conceptual learning. Uh the other we call learning. Uh the other we call learning. Uh the other we call procedural learning and procedural procedural learning and procedural procedural learning and procedural learning is learning that is learning is learning that is learning is learning that is skill-based. It's acquired through skill-based. It's acquired through skill-based. It's acquired through practice and we know that it's practice and we know that it's practice and we know that it's instantiated in different brain networks instantiated in different brain networks instantiated in different brain networks compared to declarative learning. And compared to declarative learning. And compared to declarative learning. And human flourishing requires both. human flourishing requires both. human flourishing requires both. >> And most of the academy privileges >> And most of the academy privileges >> And most of the academy privileges declarative learning over procedural declarative learning over procedural declarative learning over procedural learning. And so this course that we learning. And so this course that we learning. And so this course that we teach is an unusual course because it teach is an unusual course because it teach is an unusual course because it includes uh a lab every week so to speak includes uh a lab every week so to speak includes uh a lab every week so to speak um a little section where students do um a little section where students do um a little section where students do the procedural learning for the stuff the procedural learning for the stuff the procedural learning for the stuff that they're learning declaratively in that they're learning declaratively in that they're learning declaratively in the lecture part of the class. the lecture part of the class. the lecture part of the class. >> I love that. I've long wanted to do a >> I love that. I've long wanted to do a >> I love that. I've long wanted to do a course that had information and course that had information and course that had information and practices involved. Sounds like you've practices involved. Sounds like you've practices involved. Sounds like you've built that course. Um if people who are built that course. Um if people who are built that course. Um if people who are not able to take the course wanted to not able to take the course wanted to not able to take the course wanted to access these different bins with some access these different bins with some access these different bins with some practical tools um you already gave us practical tools um you already gave us practical tools um you already gave us um a tool for awareness. So meditation 5 um a tool for awareness. So meditation 5 um a tool for awareness. So meditation 5 minutes would be a great place to start minutes would be a great place to start minutes would be a great place to start done daily um and just to be aware of done daily um and just to be aware of done daily um and just to be aware of what's of the chaos and be able to what's of the chaos and be able to what's of the chaos and be able to observe it but not go not follow it. How observe it but not go not follow it. How observe it but not go not follow it. How does one incorporate connection? So I does one incorporate connection? So I does one incorporate connection? So I actually talked a little bit about actually talked a little bit about actually talked a little bit about connection in in uh earlier but there's connection in in uh earlier but there's connection in in uh earlier but there's a lot more to say but one kind of a lot more to say but one kind of a lot more to say but one kind of connection is doing a little connection is doing a little connection is doing a little appreciation practice when we eat. appreciation practice when we eat. appreciation practice when we eat. That's one I talked about earlier um That's one I talked about earlier um That's one I talked about earlier um where we connect to the people even if where we connect to the people even if where we connect to the people even if we don't know them who have brought us we don't know them who have brought us we don't know them who have brought us food to the table. Some of some we may food to the table. Some of some we may food to the table. Some of some we may know some we might not know. There are know some we might not know. There are know some we might not know. There are formal kinds of connection practices formal kinds of connection practices formal kinds of connection practices that we they're meditation practices that we they're meditation practices that we they're meditation practices that we call loving kindness and that we call loving kindness and that we call loving kindness and compassion practices. And so we can um compassion practices. And so we can um compassion practices. And so we can um we've shown in a randomized control we've shown in a randomized control we've shown in a randomized control trial uh that just a few hours of this trial uh that just a few hours of this trial uh that just a few hours of this practice over two weeks is sufficient to practice over two weeks is sufficient to practice over two weeks is sufficient to produce a measurable change in the produce a measurable change in the produce a measurable change in the brain. Uh and so here's a a way you can brain. Uh and so here's a a way you can brain. Uh and so here's a a way you can do this. You can begin with a loved one do this. You can begin with a loved one do this. You can begin with a loved one and bring the loved one into your mind and bring the loved one into your mind and bring the loved one into your mind and your heart and envision a time in and your heart and envision a time in and your heart and envision a time in their life when they may have had some their life when they may have had some their life when they may have had some challenge or difficulty challenge or difficulty challenge or difficulty and then cultivate this strong and then cultivate this strong and then cultivate this strong aspiration that they be relieved of that aspiration that they be relieved of that aspiration that they be relieved of that difficulty and that they have um a life difficulty and that they have um a life difficulty and that they have um a life of ease. That's it. And you can use a simple That's it. And you can use a simple phrase that you can repeat to yourself phrase that you can repeat to yourself phrase that you can repeat to yourself um that embodies that captures that um that embodies that captures that um that embodies that captures that theme. It could be something as simple theme. It could be something as simple theme. It could be something as simple as may you be happy, may you be free of as may you be happy, may you be free of as may you be happy, may you be free of suffering. But the words don't matter. suffering. But the words don't matter. suffering. But the words don't matter. Whatever words are most well suited for Whatever words are most well suited for Whatever words are most well suited for each person. Um but then you move on to each person. Um but then you move on to each person. Um but then you move on to different categories of people. So you different categories of people. So you different categories of people. So you start with a loved one. You then move on start with a loved one. You then move on start with a loved one. You then move on to yourself. to yourself. to yourself. You then move on to to a category of You then move on to to a category of You then move on to to a category of person that we call a stranger. And a person that we call a stranger. And a person that we call a stranger. And a stranger is someone you recognize whose stranger is someone you recognize whose stranger is someone you recognize whose face you recognize, but you don't know face you recognize, but you don't know face you recognize, but you don't know them well. It could be someone that them well. It could be someone that them well. It could be someone that works in the same building that you work works in the same building that you work works in the same building that you work in. It could be a classmate. It could be in. It could be a classmate. It could be in. It could be a classmate. It could be a bus driver. It could be the cashier at a bus driver. It could be the cashier at a bus driver. It could be the cashier at a local um store that you go to, a a local um store that you go to, a a local um store that you go to, a barista. um you don't know anything barista. um you don't know anything barista. um you don't know anything about them but you recognize them and about them but you recognize them and about them but you recognize them and you can envision a time in their life you can envision a time in their life you can envision a time in their life when they may had they may have had some when they may had they may have had some when they may had they may have had some difficulty even if you don't know difficulty even if you don't know difficulty even if you don't know anything about their life. So you do anything about their life. So you do anything about their life. So you do that with the stranger and then finally that with the stranger and then finally that with the stranger and then finally you move on to what's probably the most you move on to what's probably the most you move on to what's probably the most important category which is a difficult important category which is a difficult important category which is a difficult person. someone who pushes your buttons person. someone who pushes your buttons person. someone who pushes your buttons >> and you genuinely bring them into your >> and you genuinely bring them into your >> and you genuinely bring them into your mind and your heart and you recognize a mind and your heart and you recognize a mind and your heart and you recognize a time you imagine a time when they have time you imagine a time when they have time you imagine a time when they have been having some challenge and you been having some challenge and you been having some challenge and you cultivate the aspiration that they be cultivate the aspiration that they be cultivate the aspiration that they be relieved of that suffering and that relieved of that suffering and that relieved of that suffering and that practice just done a few minutes a day practice just done a few minutes a day practice just done a few minutes a day can change your brain and it changes can change your brain and it changes can change your brain and it changes your behavior your behavior your behavior >> and it changes the brain how makes it um >> and it changes the brain how makes it um >> and it changes the brain how makes it um capable of more empathy. capable of more empathy. capable of more empathy. >> So, one of the key regions of the brain >> So, one of the key regions of the brain >> So, one of the key regions of the brain that's been implicated in empathy is the that's been implicated in empathy is the that's been implicated in empathy is the um the temporal parietal junction. What um the temporal parietal junction. What um the temporal parietal junction. What we see is that in this kind of we see is that in this kind of we see is that in this kind of compassion practice, there's compassion practice, there's compassion practice, there's significantly enhanced activation of the significantly enhanced activation of the significantly enhanced activation of the temporal parietal junction particularly temporal parietal junction particularly temporal parietal junction particularly in response to stimula in response to stimula in response to stimula of people in distress. Mhm. of people in distress. Mhm. of people in distress. Mhm. >> There's also uh networks in the brain >> There's also uh networks in the brain >> There's also uh networks in the brain that are involved in positive affect that are involved in positive affect that are involved in positive affect that are activated by this kind of that are activated by this kind of that are activated by this kind of practice. Uh and behaviorally we've practice. Uh and behaviorally we've practice. Uh and behaviorally we've shown using hard-nosed shown using hard-nosed shown using hard-nosed um tasks that are derived from um tasks that are derived from um tasks that are derived from behavioral economics and neuroeconomics. behavioral economics and neuroeconomics. behavioral economics and neuroeconomics. We actually have demonstrated and other We actually have demonstrated and other We actually have demonstrated and other scientists have demonstrated this that scientists have demonstrated this that scientists have demonstrated this that people behave more altruistically people behave more altruistically people behave more altruistically using you know these hard-nosed using you know these hard-nosed using you know these hard-nosed behavioral measures. Uh we've also shown behavioral measures. Uh we've also shown behavioral measures. Uh we've also shown that on a hard-nosed behavioral measure that on a hard-nosed behavioral measure that on a hard-nosed behavioral measure of implicit bias of implicit bias of implicit bias that there's significant reductions in that there's significant reductions in that there's significant reductions in implicit bias and those reductions are implicit bias and those reductions are implicit bias and those reductions are sustained for at least six months after sustained for at least six months after sustained for at least six months after the formal period of practice ends. So the formal period of practice ends. So the formal period of practice ends. So there's really hard-nosed evidence to there's really hard-nosed evidence to there's really hard-nosed evidence to suggest that both the brain and behavior suggest that both the brain and behavior suggest that both the brain and behavior change. So the the third pillar um change. So the the third pillar um change. So the the third pillar um insight is um really about it's it's and insight is um really about it's it's and insight is um really about it's it's and I should say just backing up for a I should say just backing up for a I should say just backing up for a moment that two of these pillars moment that two of these pillars moment that two of these pillars connection and purpose are found in connection and purpose are found in connection and purpose are found in virtually every other framework for virtually every other framework for virtually every other framework for understanding well-being. Two of them understanding well-being. Two of them understanding well-being. Two of them are unique. Uh and the two that are are unique. Uh and the two that are are unique. Uh and the two that are unique are awareness unique are awareness unique are awareness and insight. And I should just go back and insight. And I should just go back and insight. And I should just go back to awareness for one moment to just to awareness for one moment to just to awareness for one moment to just point out one other thing. There was a point out one other thing. There was a point out one other thing. There was a very famous study that was published in very famous study that was published in very famous study that was published in science many many years ago by science many many years ago by science many many years ago by Killingsworth and Gilbert, two Killingsworth and Gilbert, two Killingsworth and Gilbert, two psychologists at Harvard, and they did a psychologists at Harvard, and they did a psychologists at Harvard, and they did a study with around 3,000 people. Uh, and study with around 3,000 people. Uh, and study with around 3,000 people. Uh, and they texted them at different points they texted them at different points they texted them at different points during the day with their consent over during the day with their consent over during the day with their consent over the course of several days. And they the course of several days. And they the course of several days. And they asked three questions. The first asked three questions. The first asked three questions. The first question they asked people is what are question they asked people is what are question they asked people is what are you doing right now? And they checked you doing right now? And they checked you doing right now? And they checked off from a list of activities. Second off from a list of activities. Second off from a list of activities. Second question is where is your mind right question is where is your mind right question is where is your mind right now? When I queried now? When I queried now? When I queried and the third question is right at this and the third question is right at this and the third question is right at this moment, how happy or unhappy are you? moment, how happy or unhappy are you? moment, how happy or unhappy are you? And the finding from this study, the two And the finding from this study, the two And the finding from this study, the two key findings are that the average adult key findings are that the average adult key findings are that the average adult on these measures reports that they're on these measures reports that they're on these measures reports that they're not paying attention to what they're not paying attention to what they're not paying attention to what they're doing 47% of the time. And when they're doing 47% of the time. And when they're doing 47% of the time. And when they're not paying attention to what they're not paying attention to what they're not paying attention to what they're doing, they're significantly less happy. doing, they're significantly less happy. doing, they're significantly less happy. Even if what they're doing is boring, Even if what they're doing is boring, Even if what they're doing is boring, >> even if what they're doing is washing >> even if what they're doing is washing >> even if what they're doing is washing the dishes, if their minds are the dishes, if their minds are the dishes, if their minds are distracted, they're less happy. And the distracted, they're less happy. And the distracted, they're less happy. And the title of this paper is a wandering mind title of this paper is a wandering mind title of this paper is a wandering mind is an unhappy mind. is an unhappy mind. is an unhappy mind. >> Does that mean that a focused mind is a >> Does that mean that a focused mind is a >> Does that mean that a focused mind is a happy mind or a happier mind? happy mind or a happier mind? happy mind or a happier mind? >> I would say a happier mind but not >> I would say a happier mind but not >> I would say a happier mind but not necessarily necessarily necessarily happier. happier. happier. >> I love that study. >> I love that study. >> I love that study. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Ever more important with each year that >> Ever more important with each year that >> Ever more important with each year that we have more opportunities to for we have more opportunities to for we have more opportunities to for distraction. distraction. distraction. >> Exactly. Which also to be fair to social >> Exactly. Which also to be fair to social >> Exactly. Which also to be fair to social media means that if you want to sit down media means that if you want to sit down media means that if you want to sit down with your phone and handle some texts or with your phone and handle some texts or with your phone and handle some texts or scroll social media for a bit, there's scroll social media for a bit, there's scroll social media for a bit, there's nothing inherently wrong with that. nothing inherently wrong with that. nothing inherently wrong with that. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> It's the um it's the intrusion of that >> It's the um it's the intrusion of that >> It's the um it's the intrusion of that stuff into other activities that's stuff into other activities that's stuff into other activities that's likely to be the issue. likely to be the issue. likely to be the issue. >> Exactly. Totally agree. Totally. So, >> Exactly. Totally agree. Totally. So, >> Exactly. Totally agree. Totally. So, just to finish this insight. So, a just to finish this insight. So, a just to finish this insight. So, a practice that is easily accessible practice that is easily accessible practice that is easily accessible that can really help with insight is if that can really help with insight is if that can really help with insight is if you're in a difficult situation, you're in a difficult situation, you're in a difficult situation, whatever it is, at work, in a whatever it is, at work, in a whatever it is, at work, in a relationship, relationship, relationship, imagine imagine imagine what a person who is different from you what a person who is different from you what a person who is different from you that you may know or it could be some that you may know or it could be some that you may know or it could be some famous person who you know something famous person who you know something famous person who you know something about. imagine how they would view the about. imagine how they would view the about. imagine how they would view the situation situation situation from their perspective. from their perspective. from their perspective. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And just um allow yourself to get a a >> And just um allow yourself to get a a >> And just um allow yourself to get a a taste of how their view of the situation taste of how their view of the situation taste of how their view of the situation is different from your view of the is different from your view of the is different from your view of the situation. That's it. Mhm. situation. That's it. Mhm. situation. That's it. Mhm. >> And that is really helpful in giving us >> And that is really helpful in giving us >> And that is really helpful in giving us some distance from our own beliefs and some distance from our own beliefs and some distance from our own beliefs and expectations and helps us recognize that expectations and helps us recognize that expectations and helps us recognize that when we're we see the world, we're when we're we see the world, we're when we're we see the world, we're actually not seeing the world. We're actually not seeing the world. We're actually not seeing the world. We're seeing how we construct our own seeing how we construct our own seeing how we construct our own construction of the world through our construction of the world through our construction of the world through our filters of beliefs and expectations. And filters of beliefs and expectations. And filters of beliefs and expectations. And so it helps us become less fused, less so it helps us become less fused, less so it helps us become less fused, less identified. Um, which is really an identified. Um, which is really an identified. Um, which is really an important ingredient for well-being. And important ingredient for well-being. And important ingredient for well-being. And finally, with purpose, you know, a finally, with purpose, you know, a finally, with purpose, you know, a simple practice is whatever you're simple practice is whatever you're simple practice is whatever you're doing, whether it's a pedestrian doing, whether it's a pedestrian doing, whether it's a pedestrian activity like washing the dishes or activity like washing the dishes or activity like washing the dishes or doing your laundry, just simply reflect doing your laundry, just simply reflect doing your laundry, just simply reflect on how this is beneficial not just to on how this is beneficial not just to on how this is beneficial not just to yourself, yourself, yourself, >> but to others in your ecosystem. That's >> but to others in your ecosystem. That's >> but to others in your ecosystem. That's it. simple. it. simple. it. simple. So much of what you just said, which by So much of what you just said, which by So much of what you just said, which by the way was spectacular, awareness, the way was spectacular, awareness, the way was spectacular, awareness, connection, insight, and purpose. Um, connection, insight, and purpose. Um, connection, insight, and purpose. Um, who wouldn't want to cultivate more of who wouldn't want to cultivate more of who wouldn't want to cultivate more of those, especially given that awareness those, especially given that awareness those, especially given that awareness is correlated with more happiness, lack is correlated with more happiness, lack is correlated with more happiness, lack of awareness and presence with less of awareness and presence with less of awareness and presence with less happiness. So much of it seems to be happiness. So much of it seems to be happiness. So much of it seems to be about getting outside ourselves about getting outside ourselves about getting outside ourselves and at the same time not letting the and at the same time not letting the and at the same time not letting the things outside ourselves pull us away things outside ourselves pull us away things outside ourselves pull us away from ourselves. from ourselves. from ourselves. >> You know I and I feel funny even with >> You know I and I feel funny even with >> You know I and I feel funny even with that language. I mean the language that language. I mean the language that language. I mean the language becomes so loop-de-looped. We we don't becomes so loop-de-looped. We we don't becomes so loop-de-looped. We we don't have have have unfortunately we don't have lang real unfortunately we don't have lang real unfortunately we don't have lang real language for this. I love lactate for language for this. I love lactate for language for this. I love lactate for the mind because it's simple, it's the mind because it's simple, it's the mind because it's simple, it's accurate and it's actionable. But so accurate and it's actionable. But so accurate and it's actionable. But so much of what I think you're describing much of what I think you're describing much of what I think you're describing in these these four bins is, you know, I in these these four bins is, you know, I in these these four bins is, you know, I I think of it as like trying to ride the I think of it as like trying to ride the I think of it as like trying to ride the crest of a very um kind of some cases crest of a very um kind of some cases crest of a very um kind of some cases choppy terrain until you're there, choppy terrain until you're there, choppy terrain until you're there, >> right? We can get pulled into the, you >> right? We can get pulled into the, you >> right? We can get pulled into the, you know, the news. And it's important to be know, the news. And it's important to be know, the news. And it's important to be aware of what's going on in the world, aware of what's going on in the world, aware of what's going on in the world, but pretty soon you just be lost in it but pretty soon you just be lost in it but pretty soon you just be lost in it and then carry forward the angst, the and then carry forward the angst, the and then carry forward the angst, the feel feelings of despair, having gotten feel feelings of despair, having gotten feel feelings of despair, having gotten one over on the other team, whatever it one over on the other team, whatever it one over on the other team, whatever it is. On the other side of things, we're is. On the other side of things, we're is. On the other side of things, we're in our heads and our problems seem so in our heads and our problems seem so in our heads and our problems seem so monumental that we forget that we have monumental that we forget that we have monumental that we forget that we have agency that there are things we can do agency that there are things we can do agency that there are things we can do right there and then to handle ourselves right there and then to handle ourselves right there and then to handle ourselves and show up better. So, it's, you know, and show up better. So, it's, you know, and show up better. So, it's, you know, if can feel like a pretty narrow bridge if can feel like a pretty narrow bridge if can feel like a pretty narrow bridge to walk. to walk. to walk. >> Mh. And I'm wondering if any of the data >> Mh. And I'm wondering if any of the data >> Mh. And I'm wondering if any of the data from meditators shows that that bridge from meditators shows that that bridge from meditators shows that that bridge gets wider with time and maybe even gets wider with time and maybe even gets wider with time and maybe even easier to access that in the same way easier to access that in the same way easier to access that in the same way that somebody who's fit, right? I mean, that somebody who's fit, right? I mean, that somebody who's fit, right? I mean, they can do a really hard workout for they can do a really hard workout for they can do a really hard workout for them, but somebody who's really fit, them, but somebody who's really fit, them, but somebody who's really fit, they know, okay, when I get there, I'm they know, okay, when I get there, I'm they know, okay, when I get there, I'm kind of achy, but I know after five kind of achy, but I know after five kind of achy, but I know after five minutes of warming up, I'm going to be minutes of warming up, I'm going to be minutes of warming up, I'm going to be fine. So, there's less resistance to the fine. So, there's less resistance to the fine. So, there's less resistance to the warming up. and therefore there's more warming up. and therefore there's more warming up. and therefore there's more energy for the actual workout and then energy for the actual workout and then energy for the actual workout and then it goes much better. it goes much better. it goes much better. >> Yeah. I think what you're saying is so >> Yeah. I think what you're saying is so >> Yeah. I think what you're saying is so important. One of the things you're important. One of the things you're important. One of the things you're saying it in the exercise analogy is saying it in the exercise analogy is saying it in the exercise analogy is that you're becoming more familiar that you're becoming more familiar that you're becoming more familiar >> with what happens. Uh and as you become >> with what happens. Uh and as you become >> with what happens. Uh and as you become more familiar there's less resistance more familiar there's less resistance more familiar there's less resistance because you know that the initial uh I because you know that the initial uh I because you know that the initial uh I mean I do when I go out on a bike ride mean I do when I go out on a bike ride mean I do when I go out on a bike ride you know the first 10 minutes are agony you know the first 10 minutes are agony you know the first 10 minutes are agony for me honestly. I think that's helpful for me honestly. I think that's helpful for me honestly. I think that's helpful for people to hear. I think I, you know, for people to hear. I think I, you know, for people to hear. I think I, you know, Rob, who's my producer and close friend, Rob, who's my producer and close friend, Rob, who's my producer and close friend, he's done multiple Iron Mans, he runs he's done multiple Iron Mans, he runs he's done multiple Iron Mans, he runs all the time and I asked him, "Do you do all the time and I asked him, "Do you do all the time and I asked him, "Do you do you feel good when you run?" He's like, you feel good when you run?" He's like, you feel good when you run?" He's like, "No, usually for the first 20 minutes I "No, usually for the first 20 minutes I "No, usually for the first 20 minutes I feel like garbage and then I feel feel like garbage and then I feel feel like garbage and then I feel great." I'm like, "Oh, that's that great." I'm like, "Oh, that's that great." I'm like, "Oh, that's that good." Because I thought I was the only good." Because I thought I was the only good." Because I thought I was the only one. Although I for me it's a little bit one. Although I for me it's a little bit one. Although I for me it's a little bit shorter, but I don't run the way that he shorter, but I don't run the way that he shorter, but I don't run the way that he runs. I don't cycle the way that you runs. I don't cycle the way that you runs. I don't cycle the way that you cycle. I'm out there just to, you know, cycle. I'm out there just to, you know, cycle. I'm out there just to, you know, do it, not to, you know, perform at an do it, not to, you know, perform at an do it, not to, you know, perform at an extreme level. I know that because I'm extreme level. I know that because I'm extreme level. I know that because I'm familiar with it. I know that you know familiar with it. I know that you know familiar with it. I know that you know at a certain mile distance it's going to at a certain mile distance it's going to at a certain mile distance it's going to change and it does very reliably. change and it does very reliably. change and it does very reliably. >> Uh and we also similarly can become more >> Uh and we also similarly can become more >> Uh and we also similarly can become more familiar with our own minds. familiar with our own minds. familiar with our own minds. The familiarity is the same kind of The familiarity is the same kind of The familiarity is the same kind of concept. Um we can become more familiar concept. Um we can become more familiar concept. Um we can become more familiar with our own minds and when we become with our own minds and when we become with our own minds and when we become more familiar with our own minds our more familiar with our own minds our more familiar with our own minds our capacities become more readily available capacities become more readily available capacities become more readily available more spontaneously available. And one of more spontaneously available. And one of more spontaneously available. And one of the challenges when we first start this the challenges when we first start this the challenges when we first start this work of intentionally cultivating work of intentionally cultivating work of intentionally cultivating flourishing is that we forget. We know flourishing is that we forget. We know flourishing is that we forget. We know the things that we could do to be the things that we could do to be the things that we could do to be helpful but we forget to use them in the helpful but we forget to use them in the helpful but we forget to use them in the moment in the friction of the moment or moment in the friction of the moment or moment in the friction of the moment or even if the moment is not so friction even if the moment is not so friction even if the moment is not so friction like but you know I've seen people um like but you know I've seen people um like but you know I've seen people um even meditators you know when they're if even meditators you know when they're if even meditators you know when they're if they're coming to a meal and they sit they're coming to a meal and they sit they're coming to a meal and they sit down they just immediately start um you down they just immediately start um you down they just immediately start um you know very unconsciously know very unconsciously know very unconsciously uh instead of just taking a moment you uh instead of just taking a moment you uh instead of just taking a moment you know for a little appreciation. Um, but know for a little appreciation. Um, but know for a little appreciation. Um, but the more you do it, the more it becomes the more you do it, the more it becomes the more you do it, the more it becomes spontaneous and literally the sitting spontaneous and literally the sitting spontaneous and literally the sitting down to the meal is a cue which um down to the meal is a cue which um down to the meal is a cue which um elicits this response and um it it elicits this response and um it it elicits this response and um it it really becomes more spontaneously really becomes more spontaneously really becomes more spontaneously available. It takes some time but I available. It takes some time but I available. It takes some time but I think that this is really a reliable think that this is really a reliable think that this is really a reliable outcome of uh doing this with outcome of uh doing this with outcome of uh doing this with regularity. regularity. regularity. >> Fantastic. Yeah, I'm a big fan of of >> Fantastic. Yeah, I'm a big fan of of >> Fantastic. Yeah, I'm a big fan of of ritualizing things. I have my ritualizing things. I have my ritualizing things. I have my pre-podcast ritual. It doesn't matter pre-podcast ritual. It doesn't matter pre-podcast ritual. It doesn't matter what it is. And uh the consistency is what it is. And uh the consistency is what it is. And uh the consistency is what matters because it's I I think it what matters because it's I I think it what matters because it's I I think it probably the neuroscientist in me wants probably the neuroscientist in me wants probably the neuroscientist in me wants to say that it probably allows a lot of to say that it probably allows a lot of to say that it probably allows a lot of networks that don't need to be active to networks that don't need to be active to networks that don't need to be active to be less active and probably allows the be less active and probably allows the be less active and probably allows the networks that do need to be active to um networks that do need to be active to um networks that do need to be active to um get some of that energy. Literally. I get some of that energy. Literally. I get some of that energy. Literally. I mean, we had um Martin Peard on here, mean, we had um Martin Peard on here, mean, we had um Martin Peard on here, he's an expert in mitochondria. he's an expert in mitochondria. he's an expert in mitochondria. >> He's a good friend of mine. >> He's a good friend of mine. >> He's a good friend of mine. >> Oh, yeah. He's terrific. >> Oh, yeah. He's terrific. >> Oh, yeah. He's terrific. >> I love Martin. >> I love Martin. >> I love Martin. >> And you know, when we when we used when >> And you know, when we when we used when >> And you know, when we when we used when we used to talk about energy, it sounded we used to talk about energy, it sounded we used to talk about energy, it sounded kind of woo. And you know, but it's kind of woo. And you know, but it's kind of woo. And you know, but it's mitochondria. I mean, we're talking mitochondria. I mean, we're talking mitochondria. I mean, we're talking electrical and chemical signaling electrical and chemical signaling electrical and chemical signaling between neurons and mitochondria are between neurons and mitochondria are between neurons and mitochondria are handling so much of that. And so we're handling so much of that. And so we're handling so much of that. And so we're no longer living in the space where um no longer living in the space where um no longer living in the space where um the names don't have substantiation the names don't have substantiation the names don't have substantiation in the textbooks and in biopysics in the textbooks and in biopysics in the textbooks and in biopysics >> and in molecules. Um and while that >> and in molecules. Um and while that >> and in molecules. Um and while that might not be the most important aspect, might not be the most important aspect, might not be the most important aspect, I think people that would otherwise say, I think people that would otherwise say, I think people that would otherwise say, "Oh, well, you know, this meditation "Oh, well, you know, this meditation "Oh, well, you know, this meditation stuff sounds kind of kind of out there." stuff sounds kind of kind of out there." stuff sounds kind of kind of out there." No, this is the stuff of biology. It's No, this is the stuff of biology. It's No, this is the stuff of biology. It's the absolutely it's the stuff of the absolutely it's the stuff of the absolutely it's the stuff of physics. It's the stuff of chemistry. physics. It's the stuff of chemistry. physics. It's the stuff of chemistry. So, So, So, speaking of chemistry, I'm curious what speaking of chemistry, I'm curious what speaking of chemistry, I'm curious what your thoughts are on psychedelics. We've your thoughts are on psychedelics. We've your thoughts are on psychedelics. We've talked about them before on the podcast talked about them before on the podcast talked about them before on the podcast and I always um use the usual disclaimer and I always um use the usual disclaimer and I always um use the usual disclaimer that there's some very very compelling that there's some very very compelling that there's some very very compelling clinical trials, psilocybin for major clinical trials, psilocybin for major clinical trials, psilocybin for major depression, maybe for uh other things as depression, maybe for uh other things as depression, maybe for uh other things as well. Um I gain very dangerous unless well. Um I gain very dangerous unless well. Um I gain very dangerous unless done correctly with correct you know done correctly with correct you know done correctly with correct you know health monitoring. So has been shown to health monitoring. So has been shown to health monitoring. So has been shown to be helpful for trauma for uh addictions be helpful for trauma for uh addictions be helpful for trauma for uh addictions um uh MDMA and impathogen not a um uh MDMA and impathogen not a um uh MDMA and impathogen not a psychedelic for trauma but that we still psychedelic for trauma but that we still psychedelic for trauma but that we still don't have FDA approval on these things. don't have FDA approval on these things. don't have FDA approval on these things. Um many of them are still schedule one Um many of them are still schedule one Um many of them are still schedule one so no known medical uh application and so no known medical uh application and so no known medical uh application and still very illegal to possess or sell. still very illegal to possess or sell. still very illegal to possess or sell. So that's the warning and and certainly So that's the warning and and certainly So that's the warning and and certainly populations that shouldn't go near them. populations that shouldn't go near them. populations that shouldn't go near them. people with predisposition to psychosis people with predisposition to psychosis people with predisposition to psychosis or mania. That's very very clear. With or mania. That's very very clear. With or mania. That's very very clear. With all of that said, the data are pretty all of that said, the data are pretty all of that said, the data are pretty exciting. Uh people's ability to access exciting. Uh people's ability to access exciting. Uh people's ability to access um an understanding of patterns in their um an understanding of patterns in their um an understanding of patterns in their unconscious mind um to rewire their unconscious mind um to rewire their unconscious mind um to rewire their default mode and resting networks to default mode and resting networks to default mode and resting networks to reduce anxiety and on and on. And reduce anxiety and on and on. And reduce anxiety and on and on. And psychedelics and meditation have a psychedelics and meditation have a psychedelics and meditation have a somewhat overlapping past. I'm curious somewhat overlapping past. I'm curious somewhat overlapping past. I'm curious what your thoughts are given all the what your thoughts are given all the what your thoughts are given all the disclaimers. Uh what your thoughts are disclaimers. Uh what your thoughts are disclaimers. Uh what your thoughts are and is there a place for um combining and is there a place for um combining and is there a place for um combining them with meditation to achieve uh more them with meditation to achieve uh more them with meditation to achieve uh more accelerated results? accelerated results? accelerated results? >> Yeah, those are great questions which uh >> Yeah, those are great questions which uh >> Yeah, those are great questions which uh I have thought a lot about as I'm sure I have thought a lot about as I'm sure I have thought a lot about as I'm sure you suspect. Um so I have a few nuanced you suspect. Um so I have a few nuanced you suspect. Um so I have a few nuanced views of this. First, I I'm uh excited views of this. First, I I'm uh excited views of this. First, I I'm uh excited about the new research um in the way you about the new research um in the way you about the new research um in the way you are and I also completely agree with you are and I also completely agree with you are and I also completely agree with you that there are really promising data that there are really promising data that there are really promising data from some of the clinical trials. So, from some of the clinical trials. So, from some of the clinical trials. So, you know, you mentioned um uh in severe you know, you mentioned um uh in severe you know, you mentioned um uh in severe intractable depression and there are I intractable depression and there are I intractable depression and there are I think really good data there. There's think really good data there. There's think really good data there. There's also good data for alcoholism. also good data for alcoholism. also good data for alcoholism. Um, so the the and I think that this Um, so the the and I think that this Um, so the the and I think that this resurgence of research is a great thing resurgence of research is a great thing resurgence of research is a great thing and um I'm convinced this is something and um I'm convinced this is something and um I'm convinced this is something that really could be helpful in a number that really could be helpful in a number that really could be helpful in a number of clinical situations. I'm less sanguin of clinical situations. I'm less sanguin of clinical situations. I'm less sanguin about the use of psychedelics in quote about the use of psychedelics in quote about the use of psychedelics in quote um normal people or individuals who are um normal people or individuals who are um normal people or individuals who are doing it for kind of their own um uh doing it for kind of their own um uh doing it for kind of their own um uh self-development or flourishing or self-development or flourishing or self-development or flourishing or spiritual development. I'm less sanguin spiritual development. I'm less sanguin spiritual development. I'm less sanguin for for the following reason. Uh I think for for the following reason. Uh I think for for the following reason. Uh I think that psychedelics can produce a kind of that psychedelics can produce a kind of that psychedelics can produce a kind of glimpse of a different mode of being glimpse of a different mode of being glimpse of a different mode of being which could be helpful. Uh but I think a which could be helpful. Uh but I think a which could be helpful. Uh but I think a lot depends on what happens after that lot depends on what happens after that lot depends on what happens after that so to speak. Uh and how that experience so to speak. Uh and how that experience so to speak. Uh and how that experience is actually worked with and integrated. is actually worked with and integrated. is actually worked with and integrated. And one of the things that concerns me And one of the things that concerns me And one of the things that concerns me about the stuff happening with about the stuff happening with about the stuff happening with psychedelics today is um the relative psychedelics today is um the relative psychedelics today is um the relative lack of training of the folks who guide lack of training of the folks who guide lack of training of the folks who guide psychedelic sessions. psychedelic sessions. psychedelic sessions. Uh and you can look in the United States Uh and you can look in the United States Uh and you can look in the United States today and see that today and see that today and see that many major universities, including my many major universities, including my many major universities, including my university, university, university, not through my involvement, are offering not through my involvement, are offering not through my involvement, are offering these one-year kind of certificate these one-year kind of certificate these one-year kind of certificate programs to become a psychedelic guide programs to become a psychedelic guide programs to become a psychedelic guide >> for people with very little prior >> for people with very little prior >> for people with very little prior training. And this is something that's training. And this is something that's training. And this is something that's occurring all over the place. It deeply occurring all over the place. It deeply occurring all over the place. It deeply concerns me because I wouldn't trust the concerns me because I wouldn't trust the concerns me because I wouldn't trust the kind of people who I I mean it's not to kind of people who I I mean it's not to kind of people who I I mean it's not to disparage these people. I'm sure that disparage these people. I'm sure that disparage these people. I'm sure that they have good motivation, but I I just they have good motivation, but I I just they have good motivation, but I I just don't think that uh taking a person with don't think that uh taking a person with don't think that uh taking a person with no prior training and putting them in a no prior training and putting them in a no prior training and putting them in a program for a year is sufficient to um program for a year is sufficient to um program for a year is sufficient to um to cover all of the issues and nuances to cover all of the issues and nuances to cover all of the issues and nuances that are going to arise. The other that are going to arise. The other that are going to arise. The other related issue is that when a person has related issue is that when a person has related issue is that when a person has a psychedelic experience, what happens a psychedelic experience, what happens a psychedelic experience, what happens after and what is what is kind of the after and what is what is kind of the after and what is what is kind of the residue of that and what and what I what residue of that and what and what I what residue of that and what and what I what I sense is the residue is that they have I sense is the residue is that they have I sense is the residue is that they have a memory of the experience. a memory of the experience. a memory of the experience. Um and so they remember aspects of what Um and so they remember aspects of what Um and so they remember aspects of what happened during the experience and the happened during the experience and the happened during the experience and the recollection of an experience is very recollection of an experience is very recollection of an experience is very different than the embodied different than the embodied different than the embodied transformation transformation transformation that is required to produce real change. that is required to produce real change. that is required to produce real change. You know for me there there's a simple You know for me there there's a simple You know for me there there's a simple question you can ask. Is this person question you can ask. Is this person question you can ask. Is this person kinder? kinder? kinder? Does their spouse report that they're Does their spouse report that they're Does their spouse report that they're that they're more uh enjoyable to be that they're more uh enjoyable to be that they're more uh enjoyable to be around? Are is their flourishing around? Are is their flourishing around? Are is their flourishing contagious? contagious? contagious? >> Um those are the questions that I think >> Um those are the questions that I think >> Um those are the questions that I think can be asked and I haven't seen a lot of can be asked and I haven't seen a lot of can be asked and I haven't seen a lot of convincing evidence of that. I'm a big convincing evidence of that. I'm a big convincing evidence of that. I'm a big fan of the research going on and fan of the research going on and fan of the research going on and continuing to use these substances for continuing to use these substances for continuing to use these substances for treating people who are in various treating people who are in various treating people who are in various states of significant distress. But I'm states of significant distress. But I'm states of significant distress. But I'm cautious about their use in a broader cautious about their use in a broader cautious about their use in a broader way to promote human flourishing at way to promote human flourishing at way to promote human flourishing at scale. Thank you for that very very scale. Thank you for that very very scale. Thank you for that very very thoughtful response. I Yeah, I'm thoughtful response. I Yeah, I'm thoughtful response. I Yeah, I'm enthusiastic about these compounds. I'm enthusiastic about these compounds. I'm enthusiastic about these compounds. I'm I just still have a lot of questions I just still have a lot of questions I just still have a lot of questions about, you know, like what proper about, you know, like what proper about, you know, like what proper integration really looks like. Um how to integration really looks like. Um how to integration really looks like. Um how to standardize that. Um and then of course standardize that. Um and then of course standardize that. Um and then of course there are many people who perhaps are there are many people who perhaps are there are many people who perhaps are hearing this and will say well you know hearing this and will say well you know hearing this and will say well you know there's a long-standing tradition of how there's a long-standing tradition of how there's a long-standing tradition of how to do this correctly and now people in to do this correctly and now people in to do this correctly and now people in standardized medicine in the west are standardized medicine in the west are standardized medicine in the west are now trying to you know overtake this or now trying to you know overtake this or now trying to you know overtake this or or change it and raises a lot of or change it and raises a lot of or change it and raises a lot of interesting questions. I think um interesting questions. I think um interesting questions. I think um clearly it's growing in its use. Um I clearly it's growing in its use. Um I clearly it's growing in its use. Um I haven't heard of any standard ways of haven't heard of any standard ways of haven't heard of any standard ways of meshing it with meditation. Um certainly meshing it with meditation. Um certainly meshing it with meditation. Um certainly there are people also at Stanford there are people also at Stanford there are people also at Stanford combining it with transcranial magnetic combining it with transcranial magnetic combining it with transcranial magnetic stimulation because they these compounds stimulation because they these compounds stimulation because they these compounds open up plasticity to some extent and open up plasticity to some extent and open up plasticity to some extent and the idea that one could direct the the idea that one could direct the the idea that one could direct the plasticity towards specific networks in plasticity towards specific networks in plasticity towards specific networks in the brain is pretty exciting. I mean the brain is pretty exciting. I mean the brain is pretty exciting. I mean that that I mean what's cooler than that that I mean what's cooler than that that I mean what's cooler than that, right? Combining chemistry and that, right? Combining chemistry and that, right? Combining chemistry and brain machine interface to and people's brain machine interface to and people's brain machine interface to and people's you know self-report and a really good you know self-report and a really good you know self-report and a really good practitioner and driving the neural practitioner and driving the neural practitioner and driving the neural circuit changes so that they can emerge circuit changes so that they can emerge circuit changes so that they can emerge from that better. Um but yeah, we're not from that better. Um but yeah, we're not from that better. Um but yeah, we're not quite there. We're not quite there. And quite there. We're not quite there. And quite there. We're not quite there. And I think in general the the use of of I think in general the the use of of I think in general the the use of of neuros neuro stimulation, neurom neuros neuro stimulation, neurom neuros neuro stimulation, neurom modulation methods in conjunction with modulation methods in conjunction with modulation methods in conjunction with other modalities of intervention, other modalities of intervention, other modalities of intervention, whether it be psychedelics or whether it be psychedelics or whether it be psychedelics or meditation, for example, is a very meditation, for example, is a very meditation, for example, is a very promising promising promising um avenue for exploration. And we're um avenue for exploration. And we're um avenue for exploration. And we're doing some research right now combining doing some research right now combining doing some research right now combining neurom modulation with meditation to see neurom modulation with meditation to see neurom modulation with meditation to see if we can boost the impact of meditation if we can boost the impact of meditation if we can boost the impact of meditation uh with some targeted neurom modulation uh with some targeted neurom modulation uh with some targeted neurom modulation and it's specifically neurom modulation and it's specifically neurom modulation and it's specifically neurom modulation to help facilitate sleep. What device to help facilitate sleep. What device to help facilitate sleep. What device are you using to stimulate? So we are are you using to stimulate? So we are are you using to stimulate? So we are using this um I'm sure you know using this um I'm sure you know using this um I'm sure you know something about it but it's actually something about it but it's actually something about it but it's actually there are very few groups in the world there are very few groups in the world there are very few groups in the world currently using this. It's called currently using this. It's called currently using this. It's called transcranial electric stimulation with transcranial electric stimulation with transcranial electric stimulation with temporal interference temporal interference temporal interference >> testy. Um, and the basic idea of this is >> testy. Um, and the basic idea of this is >> testy. Um, and the basic idea of this is that if you have two electrodes that are that if you have two electrodes that are that if you have two electrodes that are stimulating at a very high carrier stimulating at a very high carrier stimulating at a very high carrier frequency, say 15 kilhertz, which is frequency, say 15 kilhertz, which is frequency, say 15 kilhertz, which is essentially from all we know, the brain essentially from all we know, the brain essentially from all we know, the brain is not responsive to a 15 kilhertz is not responsive to a 15 kilhertz is not responsive to a 15 kilhertz signal. Um, so that's the carrier signal. Um, so that's the carrier signal. Um, so that's the carrier frequency. And the way it works is we're frequency. And the way it works is we're frequency. And the way it works is we're stimulating one electrode at 15,000 kHz stimulating one electrode at 15,000 kHz stimulating one electrode at 15,000 kHz and another electrode at 15,01 kHz. So and another electrode at 15,01 kHz. So and another electrode at 15,01 kHz. So there's just a one hertz offset and the there's just a one hertz offset and the there's just a one hertz offset and the geometry of the targeting is such that geometry of the targeting is such that geometry of the targeting is such that we can target deep brain structures we can target deep brain structures we can target deep brain structures where the delta frequency is maximal. We where the delta frequency is maximal. We where the delta frequency is maximal. We are targeting structures that are are targeting structures that are are targeting structures that are specifically structures where we know specifically structures where we know specifically structures where we know slowwave slow waves are generated um uh slowwave slow waves are generated um uh slowwave slow waves are generated um uh and are therefore an important and are therefore an important and are therefore an important ingredient in in deep sleep and we're ingredient in in deep sleep and we're ingredient in in deep sleep and we're we're doing and this stim the other cool we're doing and this stim the other cool we're doing and this stim the other cool thing about this stimulation is you thing about this stimulation is you thing about this stimulation is you cannot feel it. It has no subjective cannot feel it. It has no subjective cannot feel it. It has no subjective sensations. So it's very different than sensations. So it's very different than sensations. So it's very different than TMS which is TMS which is TMS which is >> you know you feel it big time. you don't >> you know you feel it big time. you don't >> you know you feel it big time. you don't feel a thing. So, we are delivering this feel a thing. So, we are delivering this feel a thing. So, we are delivering this during sleep. People don't know when during sleep. People don't know when during sleep. People don't know when they're getting stimulated. They of they're getting stimulated. They of they're getting stimulated. They of course know they're being stimulated course know they're being stimulated course know they're being stimulated because they're giving informed consent, because they're giving informed consent, because they're giving informed consent, but it doesn't wake them up but it doesn't wake them up but it doesn't wake them up >> and it increases slowwave sleep. >> and it increases slowwave sleep. >> and it increases slowwave sleep. >> We've definitively demonstrated that it >> We've definitively demonstrated that it >> We've definitively demonstrated that it increases the density of slowwave increases the density of slowwave increases the density of slowwave activity during deep sleep. activity during deep sleep. activity during deep sleep. >> How do they feel in their wakeful >> How do they feel in their wakeful >> How do they feel in their wakeful subjective life? Better. subjective life? Better. subjective life? Better. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And how do I become a participant in >> And how do I become a participant in >> And how do I become a participant in this study? I mean, I get plenty of slow this study? I mean, I get plenty of slow this study? I mean, I get plenty of slow wave sleep. My sleep is great lately. wave sleep. My sleep is great lately. wave sleep. My sleep is great lately. Um, and has been for a while, but what Um, and has been for a while, but what Um, and has been for a while, but what um are you recruiting subjects? um are you recruiting subjects? um are you recruiting subjects? >> This is a um Yeah, it's a big >> This is a um Yeah, it's a big >> This is a um Yeah, it's a big complicated protocol. So, complicated protocol. So, complicated protocol. So, >> I don't care. Are you recruiting >> I don't care. Are you recruiting >> I don't care. Are you recruiting subjects? We are recruiting. subjects? We are recruiting. subjects? We are recruiting. >> I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I do >> I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I do >> I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I do care. I'm just teasing. Uh people are care. I'm just teasing. Uh people are care. I'm just teasing. Uh people are probably thinking, "How do I get that? probably thinking, "How do I get that? probably thinking, "How do I get that? How do Well, maybe this um pre-le How do Well, maybe this um pre-le How do Well, maybe this um pre-le meditation meditation meditation >> protocol should be looked at because >> protocol should be looked at because >> protocol should be looked at because that's something anyone can do." I'll that's something anyone can do." I'll that's something anyone can do." I'll provide a link to that paper. provide a link to that paper. provide a link to that paper. >> Yeah. And and that's exactly what we're >> Yeah. And and that's exactly what we're >> Yeah. And and that's exactly what we're doing in this study. Now we're we're doing in this study. Now we're we're doing in this study. Now we're we're using a um this is a little technical using a um this is a little technical using a um this is a little technical but we're using a micro randomized but we're using a micro randomized but we're using a micro randomized design where um so uh in a single design where um so uh in a single design where um so uh in a single participant on some nights they get participant on some nights they get participant on some nights they get pre-sleep meditation pre-sleep meditation pre-sleep meditation >> just before sleep just a five minute >> just before sleep just a five minute >> just before sleep just a five minute practice practice practice >> and in other nights they do not receive >> and in other nights they do not receive >> and in other nights they do not receive that. uh and we are looking at the that. uh and we are looking at the that. uh and we are looking at the impact of that on slowwave sleep and impact of that on slowwave sleep and impact of that on slowwave sleep and also looking at the synergistic effects also looking at the synergistic effects also looking at the synergistic effects of pre-le meditation with the testy of pre-le meditation with the testy of pre-le meditation with the testy stimulation to increase slowwave stimulation to increase slowwave stimulation to increase slowwave activity and we're getting experience activity and we're getting experience activity and we're getting experience sampling measures during the next day to sampling measures during the next day to sampling measures during the next day to see if the pre-sleep meditation has a see if the pre-sleep meditation has a see if the pre-sleep meditation has a demonstrable impact on their mood the demonstrable impact on their mood the demonstrable impact on their mood the next day and how that interacts with our next day and how that interacts with our next day and how that interacts with our boosting of slowwave activity. Very very boosting of slowwave activity. Very very boosting of slowwave activity. Very very cool. cool. cool. >> I should just say um this is work that's >> I should just say um this is work that's >> I should just say um this is work that's being done collaboratively with uh Julio being done collaboratively with uh Julio being done collaboratively with uh Julio Tenoni and his group at in Wisconsin. Uh Tenoni and his group at in Wisconsin. Uh Tenoni and his group at in Wisconsin. Uh he's a very well-known sleep and he's a very well-known sleep and he's a very well-known sleep and consciousness um scientist lab. consciousness um scientist lab. consciousness um scientist lab. >> Great lab. >> Great lab. >> Great lab. >> Yeah, great lab. >> Yeah, great lab. >> Yeah, great lab. >> Are you able to share any preliminary >> Are you able to share any preliminary >> Are you able to share any preliminary findings um about what the pre-sleep findings um about what the pre-sleep findings um about what the pre-sleep five minute meditation does to deep five minute meditation does to deep five minute meditation does to deep sleep? We don't know yet. And honestly, sleep? We don't know yet. And honestly, sleep? We don't know yet. And honestly, it's not me being, you know, super it's not me being, you know, super it's not me being, you know, super cautious. We just, this is a new study cautious. We just, this is a new study cautious. We just, this is a new study that we're just in the middle of. We we that we're just in the middle of. We we that we're just in the middle of. We we have roughly 20some participants who've have roughly 20some participants who've have roughly 20some participants who've completed the protocol, but it's it's completed the protocol, but it's it's completed the protocol, but it's it's ongoing right now. ongoing right now. ongoing right now. >> Well, given what you just described, um, >> Well, given what you just described, um, >> Well, given what you just described, um, and given that this other paper and given that this other paper and given that this other paper described that some pre-sleep meditation described that some pre-sleep meditation described that some pre-sleep meditation can have a really impressive impact on can have a really impressive impact on can have a really impressive impact on growth hormone release. Um I'm growth hormone release. Um I'm growth hormone release. Um I'm encouraged to do the 5 minutes before encouraged to do the 5 minutes before encouraged to do the 5 minutes before sleep. So I suppose that um if you want sleep. So I suppose that um if you want sleep. So I suppose that um if you want to double up on the benefits, you could to double up on the benefits, you could to double up on the benefits, you could just do the 5minute per day meditation just do the 5minute per day meditation just do the 5minute per day meditation folks uh in the hour before sleep. folks uh in the hour before sleep. folks uh in the hour before sleep. >> Why not? I think it would be great. >> Why not? I think it would be great. >> Why not? I think it would be great. >> What are your thoughts on um open >> What are your thoughts on um open >> What are your thoughts on um open monitoring meditation for increasing monitoring meditation for increasing monitoring meditation for increasing creativity? Honestly the um the data on creativity? Honestly the um the data on creativity? Honestly the um the data on open monitoring meditation or for that open monitoring meditation or for that open monitoring meditation or for that matter any meditation and creativity I matter any meditation and creativity I matter any meditation and creativity I would say are very limited. In part it's would say are very limited. In part it's would say are very limited. In part it's because uh you know the the measures of because uh you know the the measures of because uh you know the the measures of creativity that are used by creativity that are used by creativity that are used by psychologists typically are honestly I psychologists typically are honestly I psychologists typically are honestly I think pretty crappy measures of think pretty crappy measures of think pretty crappy measures of creativity. So we're quite limited by creativity. So we're quite limited by creativity. So we're quite limited by the measurement tools that we have. Um, the measurement tools that we have. Um, the measurement tools that we have. Um, having said all that, I I do think that having said all that, I I do think that having said all that, I I do think that open monitoring meditation open monitoring meditation open monitoring meditation uh can really boost creativity primarily uh can really boost creativity primarily uh can really boost creativity primarily by helping people become more aware of by helping people become more aware of by helping people become more aware of the associative thoughts that they have. the associative thoughts that they have. the associative thoughts that they have. And this relates to uh something we And this relates to uh something we And this relates to uh something we talked about earlier. I often tell talked about earlier. I often tell talked about earlier. I often tell students of mine to spend time students of mine to spend time students of mine to spend time inspecting their own mind just um inspecting their own mind just um inspecting their own mind just um watching their own mind and and writing watching their own mind and and writing watching their own mind and and writing down thoughts that may occur that may be down thoughts that may occur that may be down thoughts that may occur that may be interesting. And this is a kind of open interesting. And this is a kind of open interesting. And this is a kind of open monitoring meditation. Uh it's having no monitoring meditation. Uh it's having no monitoring meditation. Uh it's having no specific object and just being open, specific object and just being open, specific object and just being open, aware, awake, and not distracted. Not aware, awake, and not distracted. Not aware, awake, and not distracted. Not getting lost in a train of thought, but getting lost in a train of thought, but getting lost in a train of thought, but simply being aware. I believe that we simply being aware. I believe that we simply being aware. I believe that we probably have much more creative thought probably have much more creative thought probably have much more creative thought occurring than we give ourselves credit occurring than we give ourselves credit occurring than we give ourselves credit for, and it's simply because we forget. for, and it's simply because we forget. for, and it's simply because we forget. And I think this can really improve And I think this can really improve And I think this can really improve that. that. that. But the data are pretty meager. But the data are pretty meager. But the data are pretty meager. >> But you still recommend it if people >> But you still recommend it if people >> But you still recommend it if people want to increase their creativity. want to increase their creativity. want to increase their creativity. >> Yes, I do. Because this is one of those >> Yes, I do. Because this is one of those >> Yes, I do. Because this is one of those things where there's essentially no things where there's essentially no things where there's essentially no downside to it. downside to it. downside to it. >> Um there'll be we know there'll be other >> Um there'll be we know there'll be other >> Um there'll be we know there'll be other benefits that have been empirically benefits that have been empirically benefits that have been empirically >> um documented. Awesome. >> um documented. Awesome. >> um documented. Awesome. Well, Richie, thank you so much for Well, Richie, thank you so much for Well, Richie, thank you so much for coming here today and educating us on coming here today and educating us on coming here today and educating us on meditation, but really much more than meditation, but really much more than meditation, but really much more than that. You've educated us on states of that. You've educated us on states of that. You've educated us on states of mind, how to access different states of mind, how to access different states of mind, how to access different states of mind, what they mean, um how they impact mind, what they mean, um how they impact mind, what they mean, um how they impact the state of being and our traits that the state of being and our traits that the state of being and our traits that we will enter after we meditate. And now we will enter after we meditate. And now we will enter after we meditate. And now everyone should be inspired to do at everyone should be inspired to do at everyone should be inspired to do at least 5 minutes per day of meditation, least 5 minutes per day of meditation, least 5 minutes per day of meditation, maybe in the morning, maybe before maybe in the morning, maybe before maybe in the morning, maybe before sleep. Would love to get the update on sleep. Would love to get the update on sleep. Would love to get the update on this study that you described looking at this study that you described looking at this study that you described looking at slowwave sleep. Um and I'm really slowwave sleep. Um and I'm really slowwave sleep. Um and I'm really excited about your book. It's so great excited about your book. It's so great excited about your book. It's so great that you have a new book coming out that you have a new book coming out that you have a new book coming out because I of course read altered traits. because I of course read altered traits. because I of course read altered traits. I've talked about on the podcast. I love I've talked about on the podcast. I love I've talked about on the podcast. I love love love the book. We'll put a link to love love the book. We'll put a link to love love the book. We'll put a link to that. But Born to Flourish, how new that. But Born to Flourish, how new that. But Born to Flourish, how new science and ancient wisdom reveal a science and ancient wisdom reveal a science and ancient wisdom reveal a simple path to thriving by you. And we simple path to thriving by you. And we simple path to thriving by you. And we should give credit to your co-author should give credit to your co-author should give credit to your co-author >> Courtland Dah. >> Courtland Dah. >> Courtland Dah. >> And he is a neuroscientist as well. >> And he is a neuroscientist as well. >> And he is a neuroscientist as well. >> Yes, he's a neuroscientist, >> Yes, he's a neuroscientist, >> Yes, he's a neuroscientist, contemplative scientist, and uh uh chief contemplative scientist, and uh uh chief contemplative scientist, and uh uh chief contemplative officer of our nonprofit contemplative officer of our nonprofit contemplative officer of our nonprofit human.org. human.org. human.org. >> Awesome. Well, you're a real pioneer in >> Awesome. Well, you're a real pioneer in >> Awesome. Well, you're a real pioneer in this space. The field as it were of this space. The field as it were of this space. The field as it were of meditation really needed a serious meditation really needed a serious meditation really needed a serious scientist to uh break in and and study scientist to uh break in and and study scientist to uh break in and and study and share so that everyone can learn and share so that everyone can learn and share so that everyone can learn about and adopt meditation and you've about and adopt meditation and you've about and adopt meditation and you've just done so much to educate so many just done so much to educate so many just done so much to educate so many people and coming here today you've just people and coming here today you've just people and coming here today you've just done more of that. So I have immense done more of that. So I have immense done more of that. So I have immense gratitude for you and I know millions of gratitude for you and I know millions of gratitude for you and I know millions of other people do as well. So thank you so other people do as well. So thank you so other people do as well. So thank you so much. Thank you. And I want to express much. Thank you. And I want to express much. Thank you. And I want to express my immense gratitude to you for bringing my immense gratitude to you for bringing my immense gratitude to you for bringing science that can make our lives better science that can make our lives better science that can make our lives better to so many people and that is such a to so many people and that is such a to so many people and that is such a gift and such a wonderful uh service gift and such a wonderful uh service gift and such a wonderful uh service that you are providing. So thank you. that you are providing. So thank you. that you are providing. So thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for joining me for today's >> Thank you for joining me for today's >> Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Richie Davidson. To discussion with Dr. Richie Davidson. To discussion with Dr. Richie Davidson. To learn more about his work and to find a learn more about his work and to find a learn more about his work and to find a link to his new book, Born to Flourish, link to his new book, Born to Flourish, link to his new book, Born to Flourish, please see the links in the show note please see the links in the show note please see the links in the show note captions. If you're learning from and or captions. If you're learning from and or captions. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe enjoying this podcast, please subscribe enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a to our YouTube channel. That's a to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zerocost way to support us. In terrific zerocost way to support us. In terrific zerocost way to support us. 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It's my very first book. coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols: An Operating It's entitled Protocols: An Operating It's entitled Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body. This is a Manual for the Human Body. This is a Manual for the Human Body. This is a book that I've been working on for more book that I've been working on for more book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on than five years, and that's based on than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and more than 30 years of research and more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for experience. And it covers protocols for experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to everything from sleep to exercise to everything from sleep to exercise to stress control protocols related to stress control protocols related to stress control protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I focus and motivation. And of course, I focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation provide the scientific substantiation provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The for the protocols that are included. The for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre-sale at book is now available by pre-sale at book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com. protocolsbook.com. protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various There you can find links to various There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you vendors. You can pick the one that you vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called like best. Again, the book is called like best. Again, the book is called Protocols, an operating manual for the Protocols, an operating manual for the Protocols, an operating manual for the human body. 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