Roblox’s David Baszucki Built the Biggest Playground on Earth

You just said something interesting You just said something interesting right before we started recording. I right before we started recording. I right before we started recording. I asked you how old you were when you asked you how old you were when you asked you how old you were when you started Roblox. started Roblox. started Roblox. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> You told me the age and then you said, >> You told me the age and then you said, >> You told me the age and then you said, "Oh, that's actually an interesting "Oh, that's actually an interesting "Oh, that's actually an interesting story and metaphor there." What did you story and metaphor there." What did you story and metaphor there." What did you mean by that? mean by that? mean by that? >> So, first off, super interesting story >> So, first off, super interesting story >> So, first off, super interesting story cuz arguably one could say I started cuz arguably one could say I started cuz arguably one could say I started Roblox when I was 2 years old cuz a lot Roblox when I was 2 years old cuz a lot Roblox when I was 2 years old cuz a lot of this [ __ ] really fascinates me. But of this [ __ ] really fascinates me. But of this [ __ ] really fascinates me. But there's an interesting story because there's an interesting story because there's an interesting story because before Roblox I had started a company before Roblox I had started a company before Roblox I had started a company called knowledge revolution physics called knowledge revolution physics called knowledge revolution physics enter you know educational software enter you know educational software enter you know educational software simulator how to learn physics very simulator how to learn physics very simulator how to learn physics very early getting into motion and simulation early getting into motion and simulation early getting into motion and simulation and all of that. We were in this very and all of that. We were in this very and all of that. We were in this very unique position with knowledge unique position with knowledge unique position with knowledge revolution way back in the early days of revolution way back in the early days of revolution way back in the early days of the Mac in that we had all of these kids the Mac in that we had all of these kids the Mac in that we had all of these kids instead of using it to do their physics instead of using it to do their physics instead of using it to do their physics experiments they were like starting to experiments they were like starting to experiments they were like starting to build stuff. It was 2D at that time. Um build stuff. It was 2D at that time. Um build stuff. It was 2D at that time. Um it was um just in the pre- internet it was um just in the pre- internet it was um just in the pre- internet time. And so we could see them all time. And so we could see them all time. And so we could see them all trying to build and share their stuff. trying to build and share their stuff. trying to build and share their stuff. And so we see the oh my gosh, there's And so we see the oh my gosh, there's And so we see the oh my gosh, there's going to be a whole new market here. going to be a whole new market here. going to be a whole new market here. Immersive 3D multi-player Immersive 3D multi-player Immersive 3D multi-player playing, working, learning, listening to playing, working, learning, listening to playing, working, learning, listening to music, all of that stuff. What happened music, all of that stuff. What happened music, all of that stuff. What happened along the way to the founding of Roblox along the way to the founding of Roblox along the way to the founding of Roblox is in that period after knowledge is in that period after knowledge is in that period after knowledge revolution I took a two two-year revolution I took a two two-year revolution I took a two two-year sbatical in a way I went a little astray sbatical in a way I went a little astray sbatical in a way I went a little astray I started going more lo almost more I started going more lo almost more I started going more lo almost more logical okay I want to start a company logical okay I want to start a company logical okay I want to start a company and I wasn't thinking about just all of and I wasn't thinking about just all of and I wasn't thinking about just all of the stuff we learned at knowledge the stuff we learned at knowledge the stuff we learned at knowledge revolution so at about a year in I had a revolution so at about a year in I had a revolution so at about a year in I had a bit of a it's almost like a vision where bit of a it's almost like a vision where bit of a it's almost like a vision where I was saying, whoa, you can't be logical I was saying, whoa, you can't be logical I was saying, whoa, you can't be logical on this. You have to be intuitive and go on this. You have to be intuitive and go on this. You have to be intuitive and go back to some of the roots of knowledge back to some of the roots of knowledge back to some of the roots of knowledge revolution, which was all about fun and revolution, which was all about fun and revolution, which was all about fun and about play and about building something about play and about building something about play and about building something very innovative. So instead of this very innovative. So instead of this very innovative. So instead of this logical track, me and some several logical track, me and some several logical track, me and some several people actually from Knowledge people actually from Knowledge people actually from Knowledge Revolution said, "We're going to do this Revolution said, "We're going to do this Revolution said, "We're going to do this very unorthodox thing and build this very unorthodox thing and build this very unorthodox thing and build this wacky new product, you know, immersive wacky new product, you know, immersive wacky new product, you know, immersive human coexperience human coexperience human coexperience multiplayer cloud-based multiplayer cloud-based multiplayer cloud-based creator-led UGC. creator-led UGC. creator-led UGC. Very illogical, very risky." It was Very illogical, very risky." It was Very illogical, very risky." It was logical and risky because at the time logical and risky because at the time logical and risky because at the time you were doing this. This is like 2002 you were doing this. This is like 2002 you were doing this. This is like 2002 >> very no one got it back then and no one >> very no one got it back then and no one >> very no one got it back then and no one quite thought of it. We had a business quite thought of it. We had a business quite thought of it. We had a business plan slide along the way when we finally plan slide along the way when we finally plan slide along the way when we finally raised some angel money that's actually raised some angel money that's actually raised some angel money that's actually very accurate to today and it was a very accurate to today and it was a very accurate to today and it was a little bit what's the history of little bit what's the history of little bit what's the history of storytelling and communication. you know storytelling and communication. you know storytelling and communication. you know that that history of communication was that that history of communication was that that history of communication was um the mail system, voice, texting, um the mail system, voice, texting, um the mail system, voice, texting, maybe video, but in sci-fi, everyone was maybe video, but in sci-fi, everyone was maybe video, but in sci-fi, everyone was talking about the holiday deck and you talking about the holiday deck and you talking about the holiday deck and you know that immersive stuff we would see know that immersive stuff we would see know that immersive stuff we would see on Star Trek. We actually believed it on Star Trek. We actually believed it on Star Trek. We actually believed it and that was part of the idea behind and that was part of the idea behind and that was part of the idea behind starting Roblox. We thought 3D immersive starting Roblox. We thought 3D immersive starting Roblox. We thought 3D immersive digital stuff would combine digital stuff would combine digital stuff would combine communication being in the same place communication being in the same place communication being in the same place with storytelling and the rest. That's with storytelling and the rest. That's with storytelling and the rest. That's kind of how we got our launch. Um, and kind of how we got our launch. Um, and kind of how we got our launch. Um, and the the other cool thing about the the the other cool thing about the the the other cool thing about the launch is we initially thought it was so launch is we initially thought it was so launch is we initially thought it was so fun and cool to work on. Even a fun and cool to work on. Even a fun and cool to work on. Even a fourperson lifestyle company at that fourperson lifestyle company at that fourperson lifestyle company at that time was very appealing. time was very appealing. time was very appealing. >> Okay. So fourperson lifestyle company >> Okay. So fourperson lifestyle company >> Okay. So fourperson lifestyle company because the first company you started because the first company you started because the first company you started you didn't raise any outside capital for you didn't raise any outside capital for you didn't raise any outside capital for correct. knowledge revolution got very correct. knowledge revolution got very correct. knowledge revolution got very far without raising any money far without raising any money far without raising any money >> and you sold it for what 20 million >> and you sold it for what 20 million >> and you sold it for what 20 million something like that that's when you took something like that that's when you took something like that that's when you took the sobatical the sobatical the sobatical >> that's correct >> that's correct >> that's correct >> explain to me what how you knew that you >> explain to me what how you knew that you >> explain to me what how you knew that you were being logical instead of following were being logical instead of following were being logical instead of following your intuition during this soatical your intuition during this soatical your intuition during this soatical >> what do you mean by logical >> what do you mean by logical >> what do you mean by logical >> I think logical goes to what are what's >> I think logical goes to what are what's >> I think logical goes to what are what's someone trying to optimize for someone trying to optimize for someone trying to optimize for literally at at that time I had been a literally at at that time I had been a literally at at that time I had been a CEO and so in a way I was optimizing for CEO and so in a way I was optimizing for CEO and so in a way I was optimizing for being another CEO and dropping into being another CEO and dropping into being another CEO and dropping into CEOness when in fact a lot of the magic CEOness when in fact a lot of the magic CEOness when in fact a lot of the magic of knowledge revolution had been about of knowledge revolution had been about of knowledge revolution had been about inventing new stuff and that was inventing new stuff and that was inventing new stuff and that was actually for some of the early knowledge actually for some of the early knowledge actually for some of the early knowledge revolution people and myself that was revolution people and myself that was revolution people and myself that was actually our superpower. It wasn't like actually our superpower. It wasn't like actually our superpower. It wasn't like just that being a CEO thing. So uh when just that being a CEO thing. So uh when just that being a CEO thing. So uh when I came out of knowledge revolution I I came out of knowledge revolution I I came out of knowledge revolution I actually went and looked at a bunch of actually went and looked at a bunch of actually went and looked at a bunch of CEO jobs. That seemed like the logical CEO jobs. That seemed like the logical CEO jobs. That seemed like the logical thing. Wait, applying to be a CEO of a thing. Wait, applying to be a CEO of a thing. Wait, applying to be a CEO of a company you didn't start. company you didn't start. company you didn't start. >> That's right. What a mistake, right? >> That's right. What a mistake, right? >> That's right. What a mistake, right? >> What's your distinction between the >> What's your distinction between the >> What's your distinction between the difference between a founder and a CEO? difference between a founder and a CEO? difference between a founder and a CEO? >> Although I kind of learned at that time >> Although I kind of learned at that time >> Although I kind of learned at that time like actually my founder kind of mode like actually my founder kind of mode like actually my founder kind of mode from knowledge revolution. I couldn't from knowledge revolution. I couldn't from knowledge revolution. I couldn't find a position. Obviously, it was a find a position. Obviously, it was a find a position. Obviously, it was a mistake to be looking for that type of mistake to be looking for that type of mistake to be looking for that type of thing that was much more of a founder. thing that was much more of a founder. thing that was much more of a founder. >> You're a world builder. That's right. >> You're a world builder. That's right. >> You're a world builder. That's right. >> No way you're going to jump into >> No way you're going to jump into >> No way you're going to jump into somebody else's world. What you're somebody else's world. What you're somebody else's world. What you're describing is literally like a vision I describing is literally like a vision I describing is literally like a vision I had one night where like I was on this had one night where like I was on this had one night where like I was on this path and there was like this big barrier path and there was like this big barrier path and there was like this big barrier there, but this path which was more there, but this path which was more there, but this path which was more worldbuilder creators is like boom, I worldbuilder creators is like boom, I worldbuilder creators is like boom, I got it. And that's when Roblox started. got it. And that's when Roblox started. got it. And that's when Roblox started. >> Okay, we got to pause here because >> Okay, we got to pause here because >> Okay, we got to pause here because there's like almost like a paradox there's like almost like a paradox there's like almost like a paradox between you. So I had um dinner with between you. So I had um dinner with between you. So I had um dinner with Honam who's been one of the earliest Honam who's been one of the earliest Honam who's been one of the earliest investors in Roblox. Guy's been telling investors in Roblox. Guy's been telling investors in Roblox. Guy's been telling me about Roblox for for as long as I've me about Roblox for for as long as I've me about Roblox for for as long as I've known him. Think he's been involved for, known him. Think he's been involved for, known him. Think he's been involved for, you know, a decade and a half. Um, and you know, a decade and a half. Um, and you know, a decade and a half. Um, and he's like, "The thing about Dave is if he's like, "The thing about Dave is if he's like, "The thing about Dave is if you ask Dave the time, he'll build you a you ask Dave the time, he'll build you a you ask Dave the time, he'll build you a clock." Some of the most unique clock." Some of the most unique clock." Some of the most unique descriptions of another human being I've descriptions of another human being I've descriptions of another human being I've ever heard. So, you're known as this ever heard. So, you're known as this ever heard. So, you're known as this really, you know, essentially like really, you know, essentially like really, you know, essentially like eccentric genius systems builder. But eccentric genius systems builder. But eccentric genius systems builder. But then I watch your talk at Stanford and then I watch your talk at Stanford and then I watch your talk at Stanford and all you're talking about is following all you're talking about is following all you're talking about is following your intuition. Can you reconcile those your intuition. Can you reconcile those your intuition. Can you reconcile those two things for me? two things for me? two things for me? >> They're both very valuable. And so I >> They're both very valuable. And so I >> They're both very valuable. And so I would say that early CEO lesson was would say that early CEO lesson was would say that early CEO lesson was definitely a sign of not following my definitely a sign of not following my definitely a sign of not following my intuition is like logically be another intuition is like logically be another intuition is like logically be another CEO rather than follow my intuition and CEO rather than follow my intuition and CEO rather than follow my intuition and build roadblocks. I would say combining build roadblocks. I would say combining build roadblocks. I would say combining intuition with tenacity and taking the intuition with tenacity and taking the intuition with tenacity and taking the long view. If those things can coexist, long view. If those things can coexist, long view. If those things can coexist, it's super super powerful. And I think it's super super powerful. And I think it's super super powerful. And I think along the way with um ho for example along the way with um ho for example along the way with um ho for example that metaphor of building a clock. It's that metaphor of building a clock. It's that metaphor of building a clock. It's funny because when we started Roblox we funny because when we started Roblox we funny because when we started Roblox we used to joke we want to start a used to joke we want to start a used to joke we want to start a perpetual motion machine. And what is a perpetual motion machine. And what is a perpetual motion machine. And what is a perpetual motion machine? It's something perpetual motion machine? It's something perpetual motion machine? It's something that can keep going get better and that can keep going get better and that can keep going get better and better. That's what kind of the the better. That's what kind of the the better. That's what kind of the the notion of building a cloud 3D UGC notion of building a cloud 3D UGC notion of building a cloud 3D UGC system. If we keep building that system, system. If we keep building that system, system. If we keep building that system, creators are going to make more and more creators are going to make more and more creators are going to make more and more amazing content. We can keep tuning the amazing content. We can keep tuning the amazing content. We can keep tuning the system and we'll get kind of that system and we'll get kind of that system and we'll get kind of that perpetual motion machine. And the perpetual motion machine. And the perpetual motion machine. And the metaphor of that clock thing is really metaphor of that clock thing is really metaphor of that clock thing is really interesting because if we dive into interesting because if we dive into interesting because if we dive into that, um, it's harder to build a clock, that, um, it's harder to build a clock, that, um, it's harder to build a clock, but if you ask me the time every day for but if you ask me the time every day for but if you ask me the time every day for the next 20 years, it's probably easier the next 20 years, it's probably easier the next 20 years, it's probably easier to build the clock than to tell you the to build the clock than to tell you the to build the clock than to tell you the time every day for the next 20 years. time every day for the next 20 years. time every day for the next 20 years. And that was part of the thought behind And that was part of the thought behind And that was part of the thought behind Roblox. Roblox. Roblox. >> I was just on stage at an event with my >> I was just on stage at an event with my >> I was just on stage at an event with my friend Eric, who's the co-founder and friend Eric, who's the co-founder and friend Eric, who's the co-founder and CEO of RAMP. When I looked over to my CEO of RAMP. When I looked over to my CEO of RAMP. When I looked over to my right, I noticed that on the sleeve of right, I noticed that on the sleeve of right, I noticed that on the sleeve of Eric's jacket, it said, "We win when our Eric's jacket, it said, "We win when our Eric's jacket, it said, "We win when our customers win." RAMP is the presenting customers win." RAMP is the presenting customers win." RAMP is the presenting sponsor of this podcast. And the way sponsor of this podcast. And the way sponsor of this podcast. And the way that RAMP helps their customers win is that RAMP helps their customers win is that RAMP helps their customers win is by helping you save time, save money, by helping you save time, save money, by helping you save time, save money, and grow revenue. The median company and grow revenue. The median company and grow revenue. The median company running on RAMP cuts their expenses by running on RAMP cuts their expenses by running on RAMP cuts their expenses by 5%. The median company running on ramp 5%. The median company running on ramp 5%. The median company running on ramp also grows their revenue by 16%. So when also grows their revenue by 16%. So when also grows their revenue by 16%. So when you're running your business on ramp and you're running your business on ramp and you're running your business on ramp and your competitors are not, you have a your competitors are not, you have a your competitors are not, you have a massive competitive advantage that massive competitive advantage that massive competitive advantage that compounds over time. Ramp is the only compounds over time. Ramp is the only compounds over time. Ramp is the only all-in-one platform designed to make all-in-one platform designed to make all-in-one platform designed to make your finance team faster and happier. your finance team faster and happier. your finance team faster and happier. Many of the top founders and CEOs I know Many of the top founders and CEOs I know Many of the top founders and CEOs I know run their business on RAM. I run my run their business on RAM. I run my run their business on RAM. I run my business on RAMP and you should too. Go business on RAMP and you should too. Go business on RAMP and you should too. Go to ramp.com today to learn how they can to ramp.com today to learn how they can to ramp.com today to learn how they can help your business save time, save help your business save time, save help your business save time, save money, and grow revenue. That is money, and grow revenue. That is money, and grow revenue. That is ramp.com. ramp.com. ramp.com. Okay, let's go back to where you were Okay, let's go back to where you were Okay, let's go back to where you were saying it was the idea behind Roblox. saying it was the idea behind Roblox. saying it was the idea behind Roblox. You had the sobatical, you start Roblox, You had the sobatical, you start Roblox, You had the sobatical, you start Roblox, there's four people you described as there's four people you described as there's four people you described as like a lifestyle business and going into like a lifestyle business and going into like a lifestyle business and going into that. that. that. >> It's interesting. I I think the >> It's interesting. I I think the >> It's interesting. I I think the lifestyle business could be a metaphor lifestyle business could be a metaphor lifestyle business could be a metaphor for having no expectation and being so for having no expectation and being so for having no expectation and being so excited about the area we were going excited about the area we were going excited about the area we were going into. It was like a validation of our into. It was like a validation of our into. It was like a validation of our intuition. we're going to go do intuition. we're going to go do intuition. we're going to go do something enormously both fun and something enormously both fun and something enormously both fun and something on our business plan like it something on our business plan like it something on our business plan like it could be really big but it it was at the could be really big but it it was at the could be really big but it it was at the time so fun we I think we're thinking time so fun we I think we're thinking time so fun we I think we're thinking we'd be very satisfied if we could work we'd be very satisfied if we could work we'd be very satisfied if we could work on this for many years what happened is on this for many years what happened is on this for many years what happened is it got a life of its own and it it just it got a life of its own and it it just it got a life of its own and it it just the responsibility got bigger the second the responsibility got bigger the second the responsibility got bigger the second we were live we could see this thing is we were live we could see this thing is we were live we could see this thing is going to keep growing what was the the going to keep growing what was the the going to keep growing what was the the original product. original product. original product. >> There was actually an original product >> There was actually an original product >> There was actually an original product that was an incredible failure. So, and that was an incredible failure. So, and that was an incredible failure. So, and the the original product that was the the the original product that was the the the original product that was the incredible failure was arguably us incredible failure was arguably us incredible failure was arguably us knowing knowing knowing we intuitively knew what the viral we intuitively knew what the viral we intuitively knew what the viral product would be. We we knew the viral product would be. We we knew the viral product would be. We we knew the viral product would be online in the cloud, product would be online in the cloud, product would be online in the cloud, multiplayer, digital stuff, physically multiplayer, digital stuff, physically multiplayer, digital stuff, physically simulated, access anywhere, simulated, access anywhere, simulated, access anywhere, um user creation, build cool stuff. We um user creation, build cool stuff. We um user creation, build cool stuff. We kind of knew that. We wanted to get kind of knew that. We wanted to get kind of knew that. We wanted to get something out sooner. And so what we something out sooner. And so what we something out sooner. And so what we tried to get out, which luckily was tried to get out, which luckily was tried to get out, which luckily was along that trajectory, was something along that trajectory, was something along that trajectory, was something that was more of a singleplayer puzzle that was more of a singleplayer puzzle that was more of a singleplayer puzzle builder type game. We um we thought, "Oh builder type game. We um we thought, "Oh builder type game. We um we thought, "Oh my gosh, if this puzzle game thing kind my gosh, if this puzzle game thing kind my gosh, if this puzzle game thing kind of gets viral, that will give us a of gets viral, that will give us a of gets viral, that will give us a little bit more runway to build the four little bit more runway to build the four little bit more runway to build the four Roblox." But as you can imagine, that Roblox." But as you can imagine, that Roblox." But as you can imagine, that single player puzzle type game is not single player puzzle type game is not single player puzzle type game is not quite as fun as multiplayer immersive 3D quite as fun as multiplayer immersive 3D quite as fun as multiplayer immersive 3D with your avatar going with your friends with your avatar going with your friends with your avatar going with your friends and doing all of these things. So, sure and doing all of these things. So, sure and doing all of these things. So, sure enough, within like a couple weeks of enough, within like a couple weeks of enough, within like a couple weeks of that, we're just like, "Yeah, we knew that, we're just like, "Yeah, we knew that, we're just like, "Yeah, we knew it. It's not going viral." Like, what it. It's not going viral." Like, what it. It's not going viral." Like, what are we gonna do? So, how do you get from are we gonna do? So, how do you get from are we gonna do? So, how do you get from the single player puzzle game to the single player puzzle game to the single player puzzle game to building a platform? building a platform? building a platform? >> Just deep breath, >> Just deep breath, >> Just deep breath, six more months of engineering. Let's six more months of engineering. Let's six more months of engineering. Let's go. go. go. >> What does the team look like in the six >> What does the team look like in the six >> What does the team look like in the six months? Is it still full of people? months? Is it still full of people? months? Is it still full of people? >> Initially, it was just Eric Castle and >> Initially, it was just Eric Castle and >> Initially, it was just Eric Castle and myself and then John and Matt Dusk were myself and then John and Matt Dusk were myself and then John and Matt Dusk were just coming on board. So, that decision just coming on board. So, that decision just coming on board. So, that decision happened when it was two of us. happened when it was two of us. happened when it was two of us. >> And you had raised any money? >> And you had raised any money? >> And you had raised any money? >> Nope. Just having a good time building >> Nope. Just having a good time building >> Nope. Just having a good time building this thing this thing this thing >> and funding it yourself. >> and funding it yourself. >> and funding it yourself. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You said something very interesting. >> You said something very interesting. >> You said something very interesting. It's like we started this with no It's like we started this with no It's like we started this with no expectations. Say more about that. expectations. Say more about that. expectations. Say more about that. >> After selling knowledge revolution and >> After selling knowledge revolution and >> After selling knowledge revolution and taking my 2-year sbatical, I tried that, taking my 2-year sbatical, I tried that, taking my 2-year sbatical, I tried that, you know, that CEO thing when I wasn't you know, that CEO thing when I wasn't you know, that CEO thing when I wasn't using my intuition, then I came back and using my intuition, then I came back and using my intuition, then I came back and the revelation was almost so big. Just the revelation was almost so big. Just the revelation was almost so big. Just like, oh, I could work on invention fun like, oh, I could work on invention fun like, oh, I could work on invention fun and inventing roadblocks. What a luxury. and inventing roadblocks. What a luxury. and inventing roadblocks. What a luxury. That is such a fun luxury. I could do That is such a fun luxury. I could do That is such a fun luxury. I could do that for my whole life. And so I think I that for my whole life. And so I think I that for my whole life. And so I think I think that was more coming off of that think that was more coming off of that think that was more coming off of that other linear track just being so pleased other linear track just being so pleased other linear track just being so pleased with it. Obviously the second we started with it. Obviously the second we started with it. Obviously the second we started going a lot of other instincts kicked in going a lot of other instincts kicked in going a lot of other instincts kicked in the responsibility how big can we make the responsibility how big can we make the responsibility how big can we make this that the the second we saw the this that the the second we saw the this that the the second we saw the perpetual motion machine starting to perpetual motion machine starting to perpetual motion machine starting to work. That was really interesting. work. That was really interesting. work. That was really interesting. >> When it was just you, your co-founder >> When it was just you, your co-founder >> When it was just you, your co-founder and these two other people, were you and these two other people, were you and these two other people, were you using the term perpetual motion machine? using the term perpetual motion machine? using the term perpetual motion machine? >> I was using it. Yeah. Where'd you come >> I was using it. Yeah. Where'd you come >> I was using it. Yeah. Where'd you come from? from? from? >> Perpetual motion machines in physics are >> Perpetual motion machines in physics are >> Perpetual motion machines in physics are even now if I go on short form video even now if I go on short form video even now if I go on short form video platform every once in a few months you platform every once in a few months you platform every once in a few months you can see some crazy mechanical gadget can see some crazy mechanical gadget can see some crazy mechanical gadget that if you look like if you look at it that if you look like if you look at it that if you look like if you look at it they'll say you know what the water they'll say you know what the water they'll say you know what the water falls out of here and that falls out of falls out of here and that falls out of falls out of here and that falls out of here and it's a breakthrough in physics here and it's a breakthrough in physics here and it's a breakthrough in physics and the machine will just go forever. Um and the machine will just go forever. Um and the machine will just go forever. Um that's what a perpetual motion machine that's what a perpetual motion machine that's what a perpetual motion machine is. They've been around for hundreds of is. They've been around for hundreds of is. They've been around for hundreds of years. Obviously, it's physically years. Obviously, it's physically years. Obviously, it's physically impossible. You know, thermodynamics, impossible. You know, thermodynamics, impossible. You know, thermodynamics, more energy in than out, friction. No more energy in than out, friction. No more energy in than out, friction. No perpetual motion machine ever works, but perpetual motion machine ever works, but perpetual motion machine ever works, but it is it is kind of this interesting it is it is kind of this interesting it is it is kind of this interesting moniker for the notion. Are you building moniker for the notion. Are you building moniker for the notion. Are you building a system that will have a life on its a system that will have a life on its a system that will have a life on its own? Will it grow on its own? I think in own? Will it grow on its own? I think in own? Will it grow on its own? I think in the in the context of Roblox, is it the in the context of Roblox, is it the in the context of Roblox, is it something that will organically gather something that will organically gather something that will organically gather traffic rather than buying traffic? And traffic rather than buying traffic? And traffic rather than buying traffic? And in that case, the content on Roblox was in that case, the content on Roblox was in that case, the content on Roblox was perpetual. It was made by creators and perpetual. It was made by creators and perpetual. It was made by creators and the acquisition of users was perpetual. the acquisition of users was perpetual. the acquisition of users was perpetual. And that it was word of mouth. And that it was word of mouth. And that it was word of mouth. >> You're how old when you started Roblox? >> You're how old when you started Roblox? >> You're how old when you started Roblox? >> 20 years ago roughly. So like early 40s. >> 20 years ago roughly. So like early 40s. >> 20 years ago roughly. So like early 40s. >> Very fascinating to me that you're like, >> Very fascinating to me that you're like, >> Very fascinating to me that you're like, I want to build a perpetual motion I want to build a perpetual motion I want to build a perpetual motion machine. Something that has no end. machine. Something that has no end. machine. Something that has no end. Something that carries on forever. Did Something that carries on forever. Did Something that carries on forever. Did Did you know the next company Did you know the next company Did you know the next company >> that you want to build is going to be >> that you want to build is going to be >> that you want to build is going to be the last company you work on? the last company you work on? the last company you work on? >> I did. One things that uh that Ho Nam >> I did. One things that uh that Ho Nam >> I did. One things that uh that Ho Nam told me about you is like he has told me about you is like he has told me about you is like he has unbelievable patience and endurance and unbelievable patience and endurance and unbelievable patience and endurance and he wants to work on something for the he wants to work on something for the he wants to work on something for the rest of his life. Yeah. But you knew rest of his life. Yeah. But you knew rest of his life. Yeah. But you knew that in your early 40s. that in your early 40s. that in your early 40s. >> I think I actually knew it in my 20s >> I think I actually knew it in my 20s >> I think I actually knew it in my 20s because I think and I actually think I because I think and I actually think I because I think and I actually think I knew it even very early on like when I knew it even very early on like when I knew it even very early on like when I was programming Apple 2 stuff. For some was programming Apple 2 stuff. For some was programming Apple 2 stuff. For some reason I intuitively wanted to build reason I intuitively wanted to build reason I intuitively wanted to build world simulations. And you know world simulations. And you know world simulations. And you know >> were you playing these games like >> were you playing these games like >> were you playing these games like Civilization? Civilization? Civilization? >> I was more building them. So like when I >> I was more building them. So like when I >> I was more building them. So like when I was hacking up Apple 2 code, I always was hacking up Apple 2 code, I always was hacking up Apple 2 code, I always wanted to build how do we simulate wanted to build how do we simulate wanted to build how do we simulate reality type games. And then when we reality type games. And then when we reality type games. And then when we built knowledge revolution, that was built knowledge revolution, that was built knowledge revolution, that was arguably a two-dimensional world arguably a two-dimensional world arguably a two-dimensional world simulator. I would say video games have simulator. I would say video games have simulator. I would say video games have historically been more about how they historically been more about how they historically been more about how they look. I was pulled to not just how they look. I was pulled to not just how they look. I was pulled to not just how they look, but how they function as well and look, but how they function as well and look, but how they function as well and what's like how much fidelity can we get what's like how much fidelity can we get what's like how much fidelity can we get out of it. So I was really interested in out of it. So I was really interested in out of it. So I was really interested in that when we formed knowledge that when we formed knowledge that when we formed knowledge revolution. It was very early in the revolution. It was very early in the revolution. It was very early in the days of simulating physics on a computer days of simulating physics on a computer days of simulating physics on a computer and it was in you know there were papers and it was in you know there were papers and it was in you know there were papers in sigraph at the time very early you in sigraph at the time very early you in sigraph at the time very early you know algorithms of how you do collisions know algorithms of how you do collisions know algorithms of how you do collisions and all of that kind of stuff that we and all of that kind of stuff that we and all of that kind of stuff that we had to pull that research out to build had to pull that research out to build had to pull that research out to build that knowledge revolution physics that knowledge revolution physics that knowledge revolution physics simulator. And I would I would say that simulator. And I would I would say that simulator. And I would I would say that instinct carried into Roblox as well. instinct carried into Roblox as well. instinct carried into Roblox as well. So, I would say um when we um sold So, I would say um when we um sold So, I would say um when we um sold knowledge revolution and we started knowledge revolution and we started knowledge revolution and we started Roblox, I was thinking that immersive 3D Roblox, I was thinking that immersive 3D Roblox, I was thinking that immersive 3D physically simulated stuff should have a physically simulated stuff should have a physically simulated stuff should have a 20 30 40 50 year trajectory. 20 30 40 50 year trajectory. 20 30 40 50 year trajectory. >> You know what's confusing to me? Like >> You know what's confusing to me? Like >> You know what's confusing to me? Like having that understanding so early and having that understanding so early and having that understanding so early and then yet you you fell off your I think then yet you you fell off your I think then yet you you fell off your I think this is really important for people this is really important for people this is really important for people listening. It's like fell off your path listening. It's like fell off your path listening. It's like fell off your path for 2 years where it's like the chance for 2 years where it's like the chance for 2 years where it's like the chance that you're going to build something that you're going to build something that you're going to build something that you can work on for 30, 40, 50 that you can work on for 30, 40, 50 that you can work on for 30, 40, 50 years. Professional motion machine and years. Professional motion machine and years. Professional motion machine and that was created by somebody else. that was created by somebody else. that was created by somebody else. >> It's not going to happen. You had to >> It's not going to happen. You had to >> It's not going to happen. You had to build it from scratch the way you wanted build it from scratch the way you wanted build it from scratch the way you wanted to do it. to do it. to do it. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Okay. So, >> Okay. So, >> Okay. So, >> I got I got lucky. I fell off that and >> I got I got lucky. I fell off that and >> I got I got lucky. I fell off that and got back on it. got back on it. got back on it. >> God damn right. You got lucky. >> God damn right. You got lucky. >> God damn right. You got lucky. >> Yeah, I think so. >> Yeah, I think so. >> Yeah, I think so. >> I mean, you made definitely made the >> I mean, you made definitely made the >> I mean, you made definitely made the right decision. So, wait, let's go back right decision. So, wait, let's go back right decision. So, wait, let's go back to you. Now, you're building like we're to you. Now, you're building like we're to you. Now, you're building like we're not going to do this like single player not going to do this like single player not going to do this like single player puzzle game. We started Roblox, but puzzle game. We started Roblox, but puzzle game. We started Roblox, but who's creat you knew it was going to be who's creat you knew it was going to be who's creat you knew it was going to be a platform from that point? a platform from that point? a platform from that point? >> We did. >> We did. >> We did. >> Okay. So, but who's making the games? >> Okay. So, but who's making the games? >> Okay. So, but who's making the games? >> At that point, we had four people. Matt >> At that point, we had four people. Matt >> At that point, we had four people. Matt and John joined Eric and myself. John and John joined Eric and myself. John and John joined Eric and myself. John was a really good game maker. And so, was a really good game maker. And so, was a really good game maker. And so, then we have we had a little bit of a then we have we had a little bit of a then we have we had a little bit of a warm-up phase where John made a couple warm-up phase where John made a couple warm-up phase where John made a couple very famous first Roblox games like very famous first Roblox games like very famous first Roblox games like Classic Crossroads and Chaos Canyon. Classic Crossroads and Chaos Canyon. Classic Crossroads and Chaos Canyon. They were really pretty fun and they They were really pretty fun and they They were really pretty fun and they tested the system. So, we had in-house tested the system. So, we had in-house tested the system. So, we had in-house creation. The three of us are coding. creation. The three of us are coding. creation. The three of us are coding. Um, and then we we had some users Um, and then we we had some users Um, and then we we had some users starting to play on classic crossroads. starting to play on classic crossroads. starting to play on classic crossroads. >> How are you getting them? >> How are you getting them? >> How are you getting them? >> Really interesting. I don't know what >> Really interesting. I don't know what >> Really interesting. I don't know what entrepreneur I heard this from. They entrepreneur I heard this from. They entrepreneur I heard this from. They said, "Look, just go buy 50 users a day said, "Look, just go buy 50 users a day said, "Look, just go buy 50 users a day from Google." Like, that's it. And you from Google." Like, that's it. And you from Google." Like, that's it. And you can buy them for a buck a a buck a user. can buy them for a buck a a buck a user. can buy them for a buck a a buck a user. And so, we said, "Oh, that's a really And so, we said, "Oh, that's a really And so, we said, "Oh, that's a really good idea. Let's go buy 50 users a day." good idea. Let's go buy 50 users a day." good idea. Let's go buy 50 users a day." That was the germination of all of That was the germination of all of That was the germination of all of Roblox. If we were able to like reverse Roblox. If we were able to like reverse Roblox. If we were able to like reverse engineer the whole social graph tree all engineer the whole social graph tree all engineer the whole social graph tree all the way back to the starting of Roblox, the way back to the starting of Roblox, the way back to the starting of Roblox, we'd probably see a one month period, we'd probably see a one month period, we'd probably see a one month period, you know, times 50 users times 30, you know, times 50 users times 30, you know, times 50 users times 30, probably see 1,500 users that were saw probably see 1,500 users that were saw probably see 1,500 users that were saw some ad online building game, come try some ad online building game, come try some ad online building game, come try it out. That are the initial social it out. That are the initial social it out. That are the initial social graph of everyone on Roblox. Now, in the graph of everyone on Roblox. Now, in the graph of everyone on Roblox. Now, in the afternoon, the four of us go online. afternoon, the four of us go online. afternoon, the four of us go online. There's maybe third 20 or 30 people just There's maybe third 20 or 30 people just There's maybe third 20 or 30 people just hanging out in these games and we're hanging out in these games and we're hanging out in these games and we're kind of watching them. We had been kind of watching them. We had been kind of watching them. We had been making those games with Roblox Studio, making those games with Roblox Studio, making those games with Roblox Studio, which was our creation environment. And which was our creation environment. And which was our creation environment. And we we were in a rush. When can we we we were in a rush. When can we we we were in a rush. When can we publish the full closed loop system? The publish the full closed loop system? The publish the full closed loop system? The the closed loop system is anyone can the closed loop system is anyone can the closed loop system is anyone can download Roblox Studio. You can make an download Roblox Studio. You can make an download Roblox Studio. You can make an experience. You can push it live. experience. You can push it live. experience. You can push it live. There's a a page where you can see all There's a a page where you can see all There's a a page where you can see all of the experiences. You can jump in and of the experiences. You can jump in and of the experiences. You can jump in and start playing that. And that's a, you start playing that. And that's a, you start playing that. And that's a, you know, that's a kind of a closed loop know, that's a kind of a closed loop know, that's a kind of a closed loop perpetual motion machine. So, we're perpetual motion machine. So, we're perpetual motion machine. So, we're we're just like, okay, we got to get we're just like, okay, we got to get we're just like, okay, we got to get this studio thing out. Like, what's this studio thing out. Like, what's this studio thing out. Like, what's going to happen? We don't know. I hope going to happen? We don't know. I hope going to happen? We don't know. I hope someone likes it. Blah blah blah. We got someone likes it. Blah blah blah. We got someone likes it. Blah blah blah. We got about 1500 users. about 1500 users. about 1500 users. >> So, you go from you're trying to get >> So, you go from you're trying to get >> So, you go from you're trying to get them from from being users to creators. them from from being users to creators. them from from being users to creators. >> That's right. And then a few years >> That's right. And then a few years >> That's right. And then a few years later, which I want to talk to because later, which I want to talk to because later, which I want to talk to because people I don't think many people know people I don't think many people know people I don't think many people know that the size of businesses people are that the size of businesses people are that the size of businesses people are building on top of your platform. So building on top of your platform. So building on top of your platform. So yeah, they're they're massive. Now at yeah, they're they're massive. Now at yeah, they're they're massive. Now at this point where we're on the story, this point where we're on the story, this point where we're on the story, you're turning your users into creators. you're turning your users into creators. you're turning your users into creators. >> And it happened very virally. So there >> And it happened very virally. So there >> And it happened very virally. So there there's a day we were in a little office there's a day we were in a little office there's a day we were in a little office on Chestnut Street in Menlo Park, the on Chestnut Street in Menlo Park, the on Chestnut Street in Menlo Park, the four of us. It's like, okay, it's 1:00 four of us. It's like, okay, it's 1:00 four of us. It's like, okay, it's 1:00 in the afternoon. Let's push Roblox in the afternoon. Let's push Roblox in the afternoon. Let's push Roblox Studio Live, see what happens. And then Studio Live, see what happens. And then Studio Live, see what happens. And then probably around 3 or 4:00, we started probably around 3 or 4:00, we started probably around 3 or 4:00, we started seeing our Oh, someone just published seeing our Oh, someone just published seeing our Oh, someone just published something. Look at that. Look at that. something. Look at that. Look at that. something. Look at that. Look at that. Oh, someone published something that Oh, someone published something that Oh, someone published something that other people are playing. Oh, look at other people are playing. Oh, look at other people are playing. Oh, look at that. Oh my gosh. Now there's 20 things that. Oh my gosh. Now there's 20 things that. Oh my gosh. Now there's 20 things published and that has a bunch of people published and that has a bunch of people published and that has a bunch of people in it. Oh my gosh. And so we went home in it. Oh my gosh. And so we went home in it. Oh my gosh. And so we went home that night just going, "Okay, closed that night just going, "Okay, closed that night just going, "Okay, closed loop viral system." Like these are users loop viral system." Like these are users loop viral system." Like these are users now that have way more word of mouth now that have way more word of mouth now that have way more word of mouth than anything we're buying. This system than anything we're buying. This system than anything we're buying. This system is growing on its own. is growing on its own. is growing on its own. >> Why do they have way more word of mouth >> Why do they have way more word of mouth >> Why do they have way more word of mouth than anything you're buying? Because than anything you're buying? Because than anything you're buying? Because they're telling their friends to play they're telling their friends to play they're telling their friends to play the game that they made. the game that they made. the game that they made. >> They made a game. The variety of the >> They made a game. The variety of the >> They made a game. The variety of the games. All of a sudden, there's a games. All of a sudden, there's a games. All of a sudden, there's a hundred different things. It's not the hundred different things. It's not the hundred different things. It's not the boring stuff we made. Uh for the boring stuff we made. Uh for the boring stuff we made. Uh for the existing users, I'm seeing something new existing users, I'm seeing something new existing users, I'm seeing something new every minute rather than this boring every minute rather than this boring every minute rather than this boring stuff we made 3 weeks ago. So, new stuff we made 3 weeks ago. So, new stuff we made 3 weeks ago. So, new content, uh, breath of imagination, content, uh, breath of imagination, content, uh, breath of imagination, creators bringing friends, all of those creators bringing friends, all of those creators bringing friends, all of those just viral. just viral. just viral. >> What do you think when people compare >> What do you think when people compare >> What do you think when people compare Roblox to YouTube? Roblox to YouTube? Roblox to YouTube? >> I think it's it's interesting. Um, it's >> I think it's it's interesting. Um, it's >> I think it's it's interesting. Um, it's a little different. And I I a little different. And I I a little different. And I I >> Well, you're Roblox is inherently social >> Well, you're Roblox is inherently social >> Well, you're Roblox is inherently social in a way that YouTube will never be. in a way that YouTube will never be. in a way that YouTube will never be. >> I think there are there's both consumers >> I think there are there's both consumers >> I think there are there's both consumers and creators, but you hit it exactly and creators, but you hit it exactly and creators, but you hit it exactly right. The comparison I would say to right. The comparison I would say to right. The comparison I would say to YouTube would be a just difference YouTube would be a just difference YouTube would be a just difference between the phone system and reading a between the phone system and reading a between the phone system and reading a magazine. Like reading a magazine on a magazine. Like reading a magazine on a magazine. Like reading a magazine on a cloudy day 50 years ago, you can do by cloudy day 50 years ago, you can do by cloudy day 50 years ago, you can do by yourself. On the phone system on a yourself. On the phone system on a yourself. On the phone system on a cloudy day, you call your friends in cloudy day, you call your friends in cloudy day, you call your friends in the, you know, Beaver Cleaver 50s and the, you know, Beaver Cleaver 50s and the, you know, Beaver Cleaver 50s and say, "Hey, what's up?" kind of thing. say, "Hey, what's up?" kind of thing. say, "Hey, what's up?" kind of thing. And so I feel the difference is they're And so I feel the difference is they're And so I feel the difference is they're both content platforms. The content in a both content platforms. The content in a both content platforms. The content in a video platform is typically solo. video platform is typically solo. video platform is typically solo. >> I'm by myself when I watch YouTube. I >> I'm by myself when I watch YouTube. I >> I'm by myself when I watch YouTube. I don't watch other people. don't watch other people. don't watch other people. >> The content in Roblox is really a a >> The content in Roblox is really a a >> The content in Roblox is really a a scaffold for communication and being scaffold for communication and being scaffold for communication and being together. We together. We together. We >> So, is this a game platform or is this a >> So, is this a game platform or is this a >> So, is this a game platform or is this a social network? social network? social network? >> We've actually said um we have slides in >> We've actually said um we have slides in >> We've actually said um we have slides in our early business plan showing two our early business plan showing two our early business plan showing two viral loops rather than one viral loop. viral loops rather than one viral loop. viral loops rather than one viral loop. >> What are the two viral loops? >> What are the two viral loops? >> What are the two viral loops? >> So, in YouTube there's a bit of a >> So, in YouTube there's a bit of a >> So, in YouTube there's a bit of a content viral loop. The better the content viral loop. The better the content viral loop. The better the content, the more retentive it is. and content, the more retentive it is. and content, the more retentive it is. and they, you know, they they have very they, you know, they they have very they, you know, they they have very thoughtful ways of everyone finding good thoughtful ways of everyone finding good thoughtful ways of everyone finding good content. In Roblox, the viral loop is content. In Roblox, the viral loop is content. In Roblox, the viral loop is both the quality of the content as well both the quality of the content as well both the quality of the content as well as the users being with each other. So, as the users being with each other. So, as the users being with each other. So, there is both a content viral loop and a there is both a content viral loop and a there is both a content viral loop and a communication connection viral loop. communication connection viral loop. communication connection viral loop. I've heard that other platforms, other I've heard that other platforms, other I've heard that other platforms, other messaging platforms actually see you messaging platforms actually see you messaging platforms actually see you guys as a big threat. Snapchat is one guys as a big threat. Snapchat is one guys as a big threat. Snapchat is one I've heard because there the user I've heard because there the user I've heard because there the user behavior on Roblox is yeah I can play behavior on Roblox is yeah I can play behavior on Roblox is yeah I can play games with my friends but it's actually games with my friends but it's actually games with my friends but it's actually like the use case I've seen is like the use case I've seen is like the use case I've seen is >> they'll come home from school you your >> they'll come home from school you your >> they'll come home from school you your younger users and younger users and younger users and >> where do they like when we were kids >> where do they like when we were kids >> where do they like when we were kids we'd like get on our bikes and like go we'd like get on our bikes and like go we'd like get on our bikes and like go find the other friends they get on find the other friends they get on find the other friends they get on Roblox and all their friends are there Roblox and all their friends are there Roblox and all their friends are there but sometimes they're not even playing but sometimes they're not even playing but sometimes they're not even playing the games they're just sending messages the games they're just sending messages the games they're just sending messages to each other to each other to each other >> I would say um it's interesting what's >> I would say um it's interesting what's >> I would say um it's interesting what's the utility of messaging the utility of messaging the utility of messaging um even very visual messaging or um even very visual messaging or um even very visual messaging or ephemeral or non-ephemeral messaging ephemeral or non-ephemeral messaging ephemeral or non-ephemeral messaging versus immersive 3D and in a way um I versus immersive 3D and in a way um I versus immersive 3D and in a way um I don't think we think of it in terms of don't think we think of it in terms of don't think we think of it in terms of how much time doing this versus how much how much time doing this versus how much how much time doing this versus how much time doing this I think there's a time doing this I think there's a time doing this I think there's a natural evolution of a wide range of natural evolution of a wide range of natural evolution of a wide range of types of platforms you know we've seen types of platforms you know we've seen types of platforms you know we've seen natural evolution of text natural natural evolution of text natural natural evolution of text natural evolution of photo type messaging evolution of photo type messaging evolution of photo type messaging natural evolution of short form video natural evolution of short form video natural evolution of short form video these categy stories. I think we these categy stories. I think we these categy stories. I think we actually think less about like we're actually think less about like we're actually think less about like we're comparing with the time of this activity comparing with the time of this activity comparing with the time of this activity and I think we're typically saying how and I think we're typically saying how and I think we're typically saying how can we increase the quality of this can we increase the quality of this can we increase the quality of this experience like our our niche is experience like our our niche is experience like our our niche is immersive 3D coexperience um how can we immersive 3D coexperience um how can we immersive 3D coexperience um how can we make it better better we think it's a make it better better we think it's a make it better better we think it's a naturally emerging niche and I would say naturally emerging niche and I would say naturally emerging niche and I would say we feel the spec of our product has a we feel the spec of our product has a we feel the spec of our product has a long way to go like Roblox is a very long way to go like Roblox is a very long way to go like Roblox is a very primitive product relative to what will primitive product relative to what will primitive product relative to what will be possible someday. be possible someday. be possible someday. >> What other co-ex experiences besides >> What other co-ex experiences besides >> What other co-ex experiences besides games take place on the platform? Now, games take place on the platform? Now, games take place on the platform? Now, >> we have all kinds of organic things >> we have all kinds of organic things >> we have all kinds of organic things popping up. There's arguably, of course, popping up. There's arguably, of course, popping up. There's arguably, of course, concerts, music that's starting to get, concerts, music that's starting to get, concerts, music that's starting to get, we're starting to see more and more of we're starting to see more and more of we're starting to see more and more of that be done organically rather than that be done organically rather than that be done organically rather than oursel, you know. So, I think Bruno Maro oursel, you know. So, I think Bruno Maro oursel, you know. So, I think Bruno Maro showed up on one of Jandelle's games showed up on one of Jandelle's games showed up on one of Jandelle's games without us organizing it. I'd say that's without us organizing it. I'd say that's without us organizing it. I'd say that's a good sign of PL. I actually think a good sign of PL. I actually think a good sign of PL. I actually think Bruno was the peak concurrent of music Bruno was the peak concurrent of music Bruno was the peak concurrent of music anywhere on any immersive 3D platform anywhere on any immersive 3D platform anywhere on any immersive 3D platform and it was actually within a game. I and it was actually within a game. I and it was actually within a game. I think we're um early signs of shopping, think we're um early signs of shopping, think we're um early signs of shopping, early signs of who knows, you know, early signs of who knows, you know, early signs of who knows, you know, someday older people are going to go to someday older people are going to go to someday older people are going to go to church on the platform. Uh older people church on the platform. Uh older people church on the platform. Uh older people are going to work together on the are going to work together on the are going to work together on the platform, older people are going to do platform, older people are going to do platform, older people are going to do other things. I think the natural other things. I think the natural other things. I think the natural evolution of a communication platform um evolution of a communication platform um evolution of a communication platform um is what are the ways people use a is what are the ways people use a is what are the ways people use a communication platform. communication platform. communication platform. >> One of my all-time favorite quotes is >> One of my all-time favorite quotes is >> One of my all-time favorite quotes is from the book 0ero to1. It says the from the book 0ero to1. It says the from the book 0ero to1. It says the single most powerful pattern I have single most powerful pattern I have single most powerful pattern I have noticed is that successful people find noticed is that successful people find noticed is that successful people find value in unexpected places and they do value in unexpected places and they do value in unexpected places and they do this by thinking about business from this by thinking about business from this by thinking about business from first principles instead of formulas. first principles instead of formulas. first principles instead of formulas. This is exactly what apploven has done This is exactly what apploven has done This is exactly what apploven has done with their new advertising platform with their new advertising platform with their new advertising platform Axon. Axon is the most powerful Axon. Axon is the most powerful Axon. 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Less than 1% of advertisers have access to than 1% of advertisers have access to than 1% of advertisers have access to Axon. So you want to get started quickly Axon. So you want to get started quickly Axon. So you want to get started quickly and you can do that by going to and you can do that by going to and you can do that by going to axon.ai/enra. I still don't think I understand the I still don't think I understand the total like depth and breadth of your total like depth and breadth of your total like depth and breadth of your vision. So if if I come to you and I vision. So if if I come to you and I vision. So if if I come to you and I don't know anything about Roblox and don't know anything about Roblox and don't know anything about Roblox and you're the systems designer and I say you're the systems designer and I say you're the systems designer and I say okay explain to me what you have built. okay explain to me what you have built. okay explain to me what you have built. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Take as long as you want with this >> Take as long as you want with this >> Take as long as you want with this question. question. question. >> If if we had to talk super expansively I >> If if we had to talk super expansively I >> If if we had to talk super expansively I would say look there's a continuation on would say look there's a continuation on would say look there's a continuation on the human development of how we the human development of how we the human development of how we communicate. Um we said earlier it's a communicate. Um we said earlier it's a communicate. Um we said earlier it's a bit like the hollow deck right now. The bit like the hollow deck right now. The bit like the hollow deck right now. The hollow deck that we're building is very hollow deck that we're building is very hollow deck that we're building is very primitive. It's not photorealistic yet. primitive. It's not photorealistic yet. primitive. It's not photorealistic yet. You don't go inside of it yet. Um, but You don't go inside of it yet. Um, but You don't go inside of it yet. Um, but you do go into a 3D environment. Um, you do go into a 3D environment. Um, you do go into a 3D environment. Um, mostly that you could imagine or think mostly that you could imagine or think mostly that you could imagine or think about or build. You can go there with about or build. You can go there with about or build. You can go there with your friends and play hideand go seek. your friends and play hideand go seek. your friends and play hideand go seek. You can play a traditional game. You can You can play a traditional game. You can You can play a traditional game. You can be in a fashion show like Dress to be in a fashion show like Dress to be in a fashion show like Dress to Impress. Um, all of the places you go in Impress. Um, all of the places you go in Impress. Um, all of the places you go in the Holiday are made by a creator the Holiday are made by a creator the Holiday are made by a creator community. community. community. We've um incorporated an economy into We've um incorporated an economy into We've um incorporated an economy into this system. So the vast majority of this system. So the vast majority of this system. So the vast majority of people who go do that for free. Um our people who go do that for free. Um our people who go do that for free. Um our creators though are very thoughtful and creators though are very thoughtful and creators though are very thoughtful and savvy and they come up with interesting, savvy and they come up with interesting, savvy and they come up with interesting, you know, ways to spend money. So when you know, ways to spend money. So when you know, ways to spend money. So when we go into dress to impress and go into we go into dress to impress and go into we go into dress to impress and go into a fashion show, there may be something I a fashion show, there may be something I a fashion show, there may be something I can buy if I so choose it. Um, and they can buy if I so choose it. Um, and they can buy if I so choose it. Um, and they they in a way our creators because they they in a way our creators because they they in a way our creators because they have this platform are able to innovate have this platform are able to innovate have this platform are able to innovate new types of things that we think of new types of things that we think of new types of things that we think of sometimes as games or experiences. You sometimes as games or experiences. You sometimes as games or experiences. You know, it's it's funny that the top hits know, it's it's funny that the top hits know, it's it's funny that the top hits on Roblox recently have either been on Roblox recently have either been on Roblox recently have either been fashion, dress to impress, or grow a fashion, dress to impress, or grow a fashion, dress to impress, or grow a garden. You know, it's like that's garden. You know, it's like that's garden. You know, it's like that's pretty cool. pretty cool. pretty cool. >> Okay, but explain how you built the >> Okay, but explain how you built the >> Okay, but explain how you built the world though. world though. world though. >> Behind the scenes, there's a massive >> Behind the scenes, there's a massive >> Behind the scenes, there's a massive amount of technology in Roblox. like amount of technology in Roblox. like amount of technology in Roblox. like this is to make it seem as transparent this is to make it seem as transparent this is to make it seem as transparent and easy as it does. There's a there's and easy as it does. There's a there's and easy as it does. There's a there's an under layer we call the Roblox an under layer we call the Roblox an under layer we call the Roblox operating system which is the company operating system which is the company operating system which is the company that's then building this Roblox thing. that's then building this Roblox thing. that's then building this Roblox thing. And um kind of in line with kind of And um kind of in line with kind of And um kind of in line with kind of system thinking, we think of our company system thinking, we think of our company system thinking, we think of our company as the system. And the company um Roblox as the system. And the company um Roblox as the system. And the company um Roblox is really running almost as if it's nine is really running almost as if it's nine is really running almost as if it's nine separate companies. They are all very separate companies. They are all very separate companies. They are all very well connected. We all get together once well connected. We all get together once well connected. We all get together once a week and connect all these companies a week and connect all these companies a week and connect all these companies together. There is a 3D cloud simulation together. There is a 3D cloud simulation together. There is a 3D cloud simulation and tool set company running within and tool set company running within and tool set company running within Roblox. There is a mini cloud Roblox. There is a mini cloud Roblox. There is a mini cloud infrastructure company running with 40 infrastructure company running with 40 infrastructure company running with 40 data centers and hundreds of thousands data centers and hundreds of thousands data centers and hundreds of thousands of computers. All of computers. All of computers. All >> why did you decide to do that? We >> why did you decide to do that? We >> why did you decide to do that? We initially initially initially we just wanted we were actually pretty we just wanted we were actually pretty we just wanted we were actually pretty naive and so rather than going down this naive and so rather than going down this naive and so rather than going down this cloud path um I would say right when we cloud path um I would say right when we cloud path um I would say right when we were starting Roblox AWS was just were starting Roblox AWS was just were starting Roblox AWS was just starting to be a thing and S3 was just starting to be a thing and S3 was just starting to be a thing and S3 was just starting to be a thing we we like the starting to be a thing we we like the starting to be a thing we we like the idea initially of building it our idea initially of building it our idea initially of building it our ourselves ourselves ourselves five years later I think that's when five years later I think that's when five years later I think that's when there's a lot of discussion about this there's a lot of discussion about this there's a lot of discussion about this company's all cloud this company's all company's all cloud this company's all company's all cloud this company's all build it themselves kind of thing. We at build it themselves kind of thing. We at build it themselves kind of thing. We at that point started to see building infra that point started to see building infra that point started to see building infra ourselves as being a cost benefit and a ourselves as being a cost benefit and a ourselves as being a cost benefit and a scale benefit. And so I would say our we scale benefit. And so I would say our we scale benefit. And so I would say our we we're great partners with AWS and GCP we're great partners with AWS and GCP we're great partners with AWS and GCP and others. We do burst into those and others. We do burst into those and others. We do burst into those platforms, but for at the scale we're platforms, but for at the scale we're platforms, but for at the scale we're working and the cost we're working, we working and the cost we're working, we working and the cost we're working, we do this very efficiently. Like all of do this very efficiently. Like all of do this very efficiently. Like all of Roblox runs for less than a penny an Roblox runs for less than a penny an Roblox runs for less than a penny an hour for every person around the world hour for every person around the world hour for every person around the world and that's super critical. Um but so so and that's super critical. Um but so so and that's super critical. Um but so so yeah and we can go in deeper but Roblox yeah and we can go in deeper but Roblox yeah and we can go in deeper but Roblox is really is really is really >> n let's go deeper. I want to go back to >> n let's go deeper. I want to go back to >> n let's go deeper. I want to go back to the nine companies cuz this is stuff the nine companies cuz this is stuff the nine companies cuz this is stuff this is what I meant before we started this is what I meant before we started this is what I meant before we started recording. I was like you got all this recording. I was like you got all this recording. I was like you got all this crazy [ __ ] in your head that I haven't crazy [ __ ] in your head that I haven't crazy [ __ ] in your head that I haven't heard in any of the podcast. We got to heard in any of the podcast. We got to heard in any of the podcast. We got to find a way to get it out. find a way to get it out. find a way to get it out. >> So we are so underneath Roblox operating >> So we are so underneath Roblox operating >> So we are so underneath Roblox operating system. Um it's how we run the company. system. Um it's how we run the company. system. Um it's how we run the company. We have a group of engineers working not We have a group of engineers working not We have a group of engineers working not on Roblox but on the Roblox operating on Roblox but on the Roblox operating on Roblox but on the Roblox operating system. Um looking at who are the system. Um looking at who are the system. Um looking at who are the various teams, how we're organized, how various teams, how we're organized, how various teams, how we're organized, how we do all of our things in the company. we do all of our things in the company. we do all of our things in the company. >> Hold on. Back up. Back up. You have a >> Hold on. Back up. Back up. You have a >> Hold on. Back up. Back up. You have a team of engineers working on the Roblox team of engineers working on the Roblox team of engineers working on the Roblox operating system, which is just the operating system, which is just the operating system, which is just the operating system on how to run the operating system on how to run the operating system on how to run the company, the company, building the company, the company, building the company, the company, building the world. world. world. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Because running the company >> Yeah. Because running the company >> Yeah. Because running the company efficiently is the most powerful way to efficiently is the most powerful way to efficiently is the most powerful way to then build this vision. So, I I won't go then build this vision. So, I I won't go then build this vision. So, I I won't go into the extent we use AI acceleration into the extent we use AI acceleration into the extent we use AI acceleration amongst our creators, but having all of amongst our creators, but having all of amongst our creators, but having all of our engineers. our engineers. our engineers. >> Why won't you go into it? >> Why won't you go into it? >> Why won't you go into it? >> Well, I don't want to say anything >> Well, I don't want to say anything >> Well, I don't want to say anything non-public, but I would say like that is non-public, but I would say like that is non-public, but I would say like that is right in line with Roblox operating right in line with Roblox operating right in line with Roblox operating system. How does every engineer, product system. How does every engineer, product system. How does every engineer, product manager, data scientist, designer work manager, data scientist, designer work manager, data scientist, designer work in optimal ways? How do um how does the in optimal ways? How do um how does the in optimal ways? How do um how does the leader of an individual group like that leader of an individual group like that leader of an individual group like that game engine cloud thing, how do they game engine cloud thing, how do they game engine cloud thing, how do they actually operate almost like a mini CEO? actually operate almost like a mini CEO? actually operate almost like a mini CEO? How do they um run that vertical stack? How do they um run that vertical stack? How do they um run that vertical stack? How do they control um the types of How do they control um the types of How do they control um the types of engineers and product managers, how they engineers and product managers, how they engineers and product managers, how they um compensate them? That's a really big um compensate them? That's a really big um compensate them? That's a really big part of how we run our company. And I part of how we run our company. And I part of how we run our company. And I I'd say that the common thread of what I'd say that the common thread of what I'd say that the common thread of what we try to do is have as much autonomy on we try to do is have as much autonomy on we try to do is have as much autonomy on these groups or companies within and these groups or companies within and these groups or companies within and then simultaneously horizontally just then simultaneously horizontally just then simultaneously horizontally just continuously try to connect it together. continuously try to connect it together. continuously try to connect it together. So um we have lots of groups who can go So um we have lots of groups who can go So um we have lots of groups who can go and do things very quickly on their own and do things very quickly on their own and do things very quickly on their own and then we glue them together and then we glue them together and then we glue them together constantly. constantly. constantly. >> How did you come to the design of the >> How did you come to the design of the >> How did you come to the design of the way you have the company operating? way you have the company operating? way you have the company operating? There was a pivotal moment a long time There was a pivotal moment a long time There was a pivotal moment a long time at Roblox where we were running it as at Roblox where we were running it as at Roblox where we were running it as three horizontal stacks. We were running three horizontal stacks. We were running three horizontal stacks. We were running it as the web stack and the it as the web stack and the it as the web stack and the infrastructure stack. And what we would infrastructure stack. And what we would infrastructure stack. And what we would see is, see is, see is, you know, someone's working on a you know, someone's working on a you know, someone's working on a specific feature like the social graph, specific feature like the social graph, specific feature like the social graph, they would have to go and try to get they would have to go and try to get they would have to go and try to get enough bandwidth out of the web stack enough bandwidth out of the web stack enough bandwidth out of the web stack and the infrastruct. and the infrastruct. and the infrastruct. So there's always a negotiation amongst So there's always a negotiation amongst So there's always a negotiation amongst that and it was hard to say who is that and it was hard to say who is that and it was hard to say who is building the social graph. So there was building the social graph. So there was building the social graph. So there was a rotation of that where we said no a rotation of that where we said no a rotation of that where we said no someone is going to be in charge of the someone is going to be in charge of the someone is going to be in charge of the whole social graph userfacing components whole social graph userfacing components whole social graph userfacing components a web component infra and all of a a web component infra and all of a a web component infra and all of a sudden we got a lot of acceleration sudden we got a lot of acceleration sudden we got a lot of acceleration because they could load balance between because they could load balance between because they could load balance between all of those pieces. So that lesson's all of those pieces. So that lesson's all of those pieces. So that lesson's been with us today and actually it runs been with us today and actually it runs been with us today and actually it runs recursively. So within our for example recursively. So within our for example recursively. So within our for example this one group or company I've been this one group or company I've been this one group or company I've been talking about the game engine group that talking about the game engine group that talking about the game engine group that is subdivided into smaller pieces that is subdivided into smaller pieces that is subdivided into smaller pieces that also run kind of in that same way. also run kind of in that same way. also run kind of in that same way. >> Essentially like you created a series of >> Essentially like you created a series of >> Essentially like you created a series of like primitives. like primitives. like primitives. >> Yeah. In a way we're like we we have >> Yeah. In a way we're like we we have >> Yeah. In a way we're like we we have primitive system for how we run the primitive system for how we run the primitive system for how we run the company recursively from groups to teams company recursively from groups to teams company recursively from groups to teams to pods and we've tried to make that to pods and we've tried to make that to pods and we've tried to make that somewhat you know an accelerant in how somewhat you know an accelerant in how somewhat you know an accelerant in how we build the business. But the way you we build the business. But the way you we build the business. But the way you think about this these nine you think of think about this these nine you think of think about this these nine you think of them as almost individual companies them as almost individual companies them as almost individual companies inside the company. Is that the term inside the company. Is that the term inside the company. Is that the term used? used? used? >> Uh we call them groups but the leaders >> Uh we call them groups but the leaders >> Uh we call them groups but the leaders of these groups we want them to feel of these groups we want them to feel of these groups we want them to feel that autonomy of as much as possible that autonomy of as much as possible that autonomy of as much as possible running a pseudo autonomous thing that running a pseudo autonomous thing that running a pseudo autonomous thing that intersects with each other. And you know intersects with each other. And you know intersects with each other. And you know it's almost like we would have a game it's almost like we would have a game it's almost like we would have a game engine simulation company talking to a engine simulation company talking to a engine simulation company talking to a infrastructure cloud computing and infrastructure cloud computing and infrastructure cloud computing and storage company. They work with each storage company. They work with each storage company. They work with each other. This sits on top of that. But other. This sits on top of that. But other. This sits on top of that. But it's we want as much speed and autonomy it's we want as much speed and autonomy it's we want as much speed and autonomy in each of these groups. in each of these groups. in each of these groups. >> Say more about how this is organized. >> Say more about how this is organized. >> Say more about how this is organized. This is very fascinating. This is very fascinating. This is very fascinating. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, we um executive >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, we um executive >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, we um executive staff meeting um every Tuesday. We get staff meeting um every Tuesday. We get staff meeting um every Tuesday. We get together four or five hours. Leaders of together four or five hours. Leaders of together four or five hours. Leaders of all these nine companies come together. all these nine companies come together. all these nine companies come together. We go through the things they're working We go through the things they're working We go through the things they're working on by themselves, but we go through a on by themselves, but we go through a on by themselves, but we go through a lot of times of all of the horizontal lot of times of all of the horizontal lot of times of all of the horizontal things that are bringing them together. things that are bringing them together. things that are bringing them together. What do you what are the horizontal What do you what are the horizontal What do you what are the horizontal things bringing them together? things bringing them together? things bringing them together? >> It's funny, but we track at a like a >> It's funny, but we track at a like a >> It's funny, but we track at a like a ridiculously high level of fidelity even ridiculously high level of fidelity even ridiculously high level of fidelity even in our executive staff meeting. So we, in our executive staff meeting. So we, in our executive staff meeting. So we, you know, we have probably 50 to 60 you know, we have probably 50 to 60 you know, we have probably 50 to 60 things that are core to hitting, you things that are core to hitting, you things that are core to hitting, you know, the objectives we have this know, the objectives we have this know, the objectives we have this quarter, next quarter, the rest of the quarter, next quarter, the rest of the quarter, next quarter, the rest of the year. It's almost like a hand curated year. It's almost like a hand curated year. It's almost like a hand curated list at the company level and group list at the company level and group list at the company level and group level of things that we think are level of things that we think are level of things that we think are emblematic emblematic emblematic as a way of our success. And every week as a way of our success. And every week as a way of our success. And every week um we have all of the key leaders of all um we have all of the key leaders of all um we have all of the key leaders of all of those groups come together and we of those groups come together and we of those groups come together and we just go through all that list of 50. just go through all that list of 50. just go through all that list of 50. >> So who's in this meeting? It's these >> So who's in this meeting? It's these >> So who's in this meeting? It's these nine people. They're reporting directly nine people. They're reporting directly nine people. They're reporting directly to you. to you. to you. >> Some of them report to me, some report >> Some of them report to me, some report >> Some of them report to me, some report to some with without. But there's to some with without. But there's to some with without. But there's probably we'll bring in a few other probably we'll bring in a few other probably we'll bring in a few other engineers as well. So there's probably engineers as well. So there's probably engineers as well. So there's probably 15 or 18 people in that meeting. Um, and 15 or 18 people in that meeting. Um, and 15 or 18 people in that meeting. Um, and we spend an hour just we spend an hour just we spend an hour just >> No. What's the You got to explain that. >> No. What's the You got to explain that. >> No. What's the You got to explain that. >> Key deliverable one through 50 like this >> Key deliverable one through 50 like this >> Key deliverable one through 50 like this >> in an hour. >> in an hour. >> in an hour. >> It's 2 minutes. It's like one to two >> It's 2 minutes. It's like one to two >> It's 2 minutes. It's like one to two minutes an issue. minutes an issue. minutes an issue. >> Uh, just I just recorded with uh Evan >> Uh, just I just recorded with uh Evan >> Uh, just I just recorded with uh Evan Spiegel, founder of Snapchat. Yeah. Spiegel, founder of Snapchat. Yeah. Spiegel, founder of Snapchat. Yeah. >> And his he was explaining his design >> And his he was explaining his design >> And his he was explaining his design meeting and he says I forgot maybe an meeting and he says I forgot maybe an meeting and he says I forgot maybe an hour or two hours after listen to the hour or two hours after listen to the hour or two hours after listen to the episode back, but he's like we'll go episode back, but he's like we'll go episode back, but he's like we'll go over hundreds of ideas. We just go over hundreds of ideas. We just go over hundreds of ideas. We just go through it really really really rapidly. through it really really really rapidly. through it really really really rapidly. We have our core list that goes between We have our core list that goes between We have our core list that goes between 50 and 70. They cycle every month or two 50 and 70. They cycle every month or two 50 and 70. They cycle every month or two or three or four. We're constantly or three or four. We're constantly or three or four. We're constantly putting new things in. putting new things in. putting new things in. >> How do you keep track of all this? >> How do you keep track of all this? >> How do you keep track of all this? >> We have a pretty good office of CEO >> We have a pretty good office of CEO >> We have a pretty good office of CEO team. We have the Roblox operating team. We have the Roblox operating team. We have the Roblox operating system. It's got some software in there. system. It's got some software in there. system. It's got some software in there. Um my office has, you know, Stratops Um my office has, you know, Stratops Um my office has, you know, Stratops people, senior people who kind of work people, senior people who kind of work people, senior people who kind of work with me to do this on the side. So, it's with me to do this on the side. So, it's with me to do this on the side. So, it's very real time. very real time. very real time. >> Okay. Can you say more about these nine >> Okay. Can you say more about these nine >> Okay. Can you say more about these nine separate companies? I think you just separate companies? I think you just separate companies? I think you just described two of them. described two of them. described two of them. >> Yeah, we we publicly talk about all of >> Yeah, we we publicly talk about all of >> Yeah, we we publicly talk about all of them. So, I would say there's um um them. So, I would say there's um um them. So, I would say there's um um there's a people systems company that there's a people systems company that there's a people systems company that actually builds the Roblox operating actually builds the Roblox operating actually builds the Roblox operating system and has all of our recruiting and system and has all of our recruiting and system and has all of our recruiting and people and performance management stuff. people and performance management stuff. people and performance management stuff. There's an infrastructure company and There's an infrastructure company and There's an infrastructure company and that's running like our 40 data centers that's running like our 40 data centers that's running like our 40 data centers and all of our compute and bandwidth and all of our compute and bandwidth and all of our compute and bandwidth persistence. They're building out cool persistence. They're building out cool persistence. They're building out cool persistent systems as well. uh game persistent systems as well. uh game persistent systems as well. uh game engine simulation tooling and Roblox engine simulation tooling and Roblox engine simulation tooling and Roblox studio sitting in a group or a company. studio sitting in a group or a company. studio sitting in a group or a company. There is a group um called the economy There is a group um called the economy There is a group um called the economy group. It's literally all of the things group. It's literally all of the things group. It's literally all of the things around how we have Robux, how we around how we have Robux, how we around how we have Robux, how we monetize, how we um you know collect monetize, how we um you know collect monetize, how we um you know collect money, the ledger, all of that. There's money, the ledger, all of that. There's money, the ledger, all of that. There's a very large group, arguably the largest a very large group, arguably the largest a very large group, arguably the largest safety and civility group, engineering, safety and civility group, engineering, safety and civility group, engineering, product, policy, and live ops under a product, policy, and live ops under a product, policy, and live ops under a single threaded leader, chief safety single threaded leader, chief safety single threaded leader, chief safety officer, Matt, who can just run that officer, Matt, who can just run that officer, Matt, who can just run that whole thing and make decisions. There is whole thing and make decisions. There is whole thing and make decisions. There is a userfacing group that is all involved a userfacing group that is all involved a userfacing group that is all involved with social graph, virality, with social graph, virality, with social graph, virality, um the various apps we have for having um the various apps we have for having um the various apps we have for having Roblox run in different places. So it's Roblox run in different places. So it's Roblox run in different places. So it's like a wide range of these user group. like a wide range of these user group. like a wide range of these user group. >> Does all do all nine of these companies >> Does all do all nine of these companies >> Does all do all nine of these companies have the singlethreaded leader? have the singlethreaded leader? have the singlethreaded leader? >> Some of them are still matrixed. Um many >> Some of them are still matrixed. Um many >> Some of them are still matrixed. Um many of them are singlethreaded. We do have of them are singlethreaded. We do have of them are singlethreaded. We do have some leaders that run have engineering some leaders that run have engineering some leaders that run have engineering under two of them. So it's not under two of them. So it's not under two of them. So it's not absolutely perfect and in some of these absolutely perfect and in some of these absolutely perfect and in some of these these are better run by maybe a product these are better run by maybe a product these are better run by maybe a product person than an edge person. But person than an edge person. But person than an edge person. But generally there's one or two leaders for generally there's one or two leaders for generally there's one or two leaders for each of these groups that we know each of these groups that we know each of these groups that we know exactly who it is. Do you think that exactly who it is. Do you think that exactly who it is. Do you think that will be the case a year from now? will be the case a year from now? will be the case a year from now? >> I think so. Yeah. >> I think so. Yeah. >> I think so. Yeah. >> Okay. So, you don't see the need to >> Okay. So, you don't see the need to >> Okay. So, you don't see the need to change that? change that? change that? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> All right. So, let's go back. This is >> All right. So, let's go back. This is >> All right. So, let's go back. This is very fascinating. Essentially, you're very fascinating. Essentially, you're very fascinating. Essentially, you're you've designed a system. you've designed a system. you've designed a system. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Which is your company to design another >> Which is your company to design another >> Which is your company to design another system, which is the right platform that system, which is the right platform that system, which is the right platform that you're building. you're building. you're building. >> That's exactly right. >> That's exactly right. >> That's exactly right. >> I still don't understand the jump. So, >> I still don't understand the jump. So, >> I still don't understand the jump. So, within like a couple hours of letting within like a couple hours of letting within like a couple hours of letting people start building their own game, so people start building their own game, so people start building their own game, so now you're turning users back into now you're turning users back into now you're turning users back into creators. That's right. creators. That's right. creators. That's right. >> But there's no economy there. There's no >> But there's no economy there. There's no >> But there's no economy there. There's no Roblox. Pure fun. and you're not there's Roblox. Pure fun. and you're not there's Roblox. Pure fun. and you're not there's no revenue of the company at the time. no revenue of the company at the time. no revenue of the company at the time. >> No revenue pure fine. >> No revenue pure fine. >> No revenue pure fine. >> Okay. So what is taking me back to your >> Okay. So what is taking me back to your >> Okay. So what is taking me back to your decisions? You're seeing this like oh decisions? You're seeing this like oh decisions? You're seeing this like oh we're on to something. This is going to we're on to something. This is going to we're on to something. This is going to work. What's your next thought? work. What's your next thought? work. What's your next thought? >> So then what starts happening is Roblox >> So then what starts happening is Roblox >> So then what starts happening is Roblox started a persistently viral mode. Um started a persistently viral mode. Um started a persistently viral mode. Um like we could track the growth day by like we could track the growth day by like we could track the growth day by day, week by week. It's like this is day, week by week. It's like this is day, week by week. It's like this is organic growth. This is not paid organic growth. This is not paid organic growth. This is not paid acquisition. It's just like we're acquisition. It's just like we're acquisition. It's just like we're sitting back and watching that. We then sitting back and watching that. We then sitting back and watching that. We then the funds started being there. It's just the funds started being there. It's just the funds started being there. It's just like 10 concurrent, 100 concurrent, like 10 concurrent, 100 concurrent, like 10 concurrent, 100 concurrent, thousand concurrent, 10,000 concurrent. thousand concurrent, 10,000 concurrent. thousand concurrent, 10,000 concurrent. Creations are getting better. We know Creations are getting better. We know Creations are getting better. We know everything we do with Roblox Studio, the everything we do with Roblox Studio, the everything we do with Roblox Studio, the better Roblox Studio gets, the more better Roblox Studio gets, the more better Roblox Studio gets, the more viral it is. The better the game engine viral it is. The better the game engine viral it is. The better the game engine is, the more viral it is. um very early is, the more viral it is. um very early is, the more viral it is. um very early on to Eric's credit I think literally on on to Eric's credit I think literally on on to Eric's credit I think literally on week three or week four in the afternoon week three or week four in the afternoon week three or week four in the afternoon when we're now we're sitting there we when we're now we're sitting there we when we're now we're sitting there we know the names of a lot of these people know the names of a lot of these people know the names of a lot of these people there's hundreds of people Eric said there's hundreds of people Eric said there's hundreds of people Eric said um we need to build the first safety um we need to build the first safety um we need to build the first safety moderation system and moderation system and moderation system and and John and Matt and I all look at it and John and Matt and I all look at it and John and Matt and I all look at it and say you're right he's right oh my and say you're right he's right oh my and say you're right he's right oh my gosh like we got to get on this thing. gosh like we got to get on this thing. gosh like we got to get on this thing. So along the way we build like a So along the way we build like a So along the way we build like a moderation system. We have user moderation system. We have user moderation system. We have user reporting all of that for a long time. reporting all of that for a long time. reporting all of that for a long time. Matt and um Eric and John and myself we Matt and um Eric and John and myself we Matt and um Eric and John and myself we were the moderators like we would switch were the moderators like we would switch were the moderators like we would switch off. So we got to get a vibe of that and off. So we got to get a vibe of that and off. So we got to get a vibe of that and so this keeps marching on and then then so this keeps marching on and then then so this keeps marching on and then then finally we say okay how can we start finally we say okay how can we start finally we say okay how can we start making some money on this thing? Um it's making some money on this thing? Um it's making some money on this thing? Um it's growing we have costs all of that. Um, growing we have costs all of that. Um, growing we have costs all of that. Um, interestingly enough, this is another interestingly enough, this is another interestingly enough, this is another example of we we had a big intuition example of we we had a big intuition example of we we had a big intuition around virtual economy. We said, uh, we around virtual economy. We said, uh, we around virtual economy. We said, uh, we can get this out a little faster if we can get this out a little faster if we can get this out a little faster if we build this club membership thing. Um, build this club membership thing. Um, build this club membership thing. Um, that at that time, Club Penguin had a that at that time, Club Penguin had a that at that time, Club Penguin had a club membership. Can we just charge club membership. Can we just charge club membership. Can we just charge people five bucks a month for something? people five bucks a month for something? people five bucks a month for something? So, we worked on that for a while. And So, we worked on that for a while. And So, we worked on that for a while. And so, we had this thing called Builders so, we had this thing called Builders so, we had this thing called Builders Club. It was kind of fun. and we started Club. It was kind of fun. and we started Club. It was kind of fun. and we started monetizing. Exact same thing as when we monetizing. Exact same thing as when we monetizing. Exact same thing as when we started. We had this really fun moment started. We had this really fun moment started. We had this really fun moment where I was on a camping trip and um I I where I was on a camping trip and um I I where I was on a camping trip and um I I could check in how many people are could check in how many people are could check in how many people are buying builder club every day. First day buying builder club every day. First day buying builder club every day. First day it was five and then it was four, then it was five and then it was four, then it was five and then it was four, then it was six, then it was three, then it it was six, then it was three, then it it was six, then it was three, then it was eight, then it was 15. So we're was eight, then it was 15. So we're was eight, then it was 15. So we're like, "Okay, we're monetizing. This is like, "Okay, we're monetizing. This is like, "Okay, we're monetizing. This is great." Um, and so, um, Builder's Club great." Um, and so, um, Builder's Club great." Um, and so, um, Builder's Club keeps going and then for about a year or keeps going and then for about a year or keeps going and then for about a year or two, um, because it was working so well. two, um, because it was working so well. two, um, because it was working so well. Wow, it's just all viral growth, viral Wow, it's just all viral growth, viral Wow, it's just all viral growth, viral builder club is starting to work. Let's builder club is starting to work. Let's builder club is starting to work. Let's just keep working on the system, making just keep working on the system, making just keep working on the system, making it better and better. It was interesting it better and better. It was interesting it better and better. It was interesting though, just like in the early days when though, just like in the early days when though, just like in the early days when we started the puzzle game and then we started the puzzle game and then we started the puzzle game and then said, "Finally, the market has shown us said, "Finally, the market has shown us said, "Finally, the market has shown us that's not the ultimate system. let's that's not the ultimate system. let's that's not the ultimate system. let's build what we really believe. Something build what we really believe. Something build what we really believe. Something very similar happened with the builder very similar happened with the builder very similar happened with the builder club and we entered this interesting club and we entered this interesting club and we entered this interesting period where user growth was going like period where user growth was going like period where user growth was going like this but re revenue and bookings was this but re revenue and bookings was this but re revenue and bookings was kind of going like this. And so what kind of going like this. And so what kind of going like this. And so what that meant is Builder Club was getting a that meant is Builder Club was getting a that meant is Builder Club was getting a little old and stale and for the wider little old and stale and for the wider little old and stale and for the wider range of users it was really not the range of users it was really not the range of users it was really not the right thing. And in retrospect, um, it's right thing. And in retrospect, um, it's right thing. And in retrospect, um, it's funny cuz when we started the company, funny cuz when we started the company, funny cuz when we started the company, we use taglines like you make the game. we use taglines like you make the game. we use taglines like you make the game. And that's a really good early tagline. And that's a really good early tagline. And that's a really good early tagline. It's aspirational. It's aspirational. It's aspirational. Everyone's making games on Roblox. Everyone's making games on Roblox. Everyone's making games on Roblox. That's definitely not the reality of, That's definitely not the reality of, That's definitely not the reality of, you know, a billion users. And in a you know, a billion users. And in a you know, a billion users. And in a billion users, um, communication for billion users, um, communication for billion users, um, communication for many people would be very important many people would be very important many people would be very important without having to make a game. You know, without having to make a game. You know, without having to make a game. You know, there's a lot of people that just want there's a lot of people that just want there's a lot of people that just want to show up and play something. to show up and play something. to show up and play something. >> Yeah. I think you right now you said you >> Yeah. I think you right now you said you >> Yeah. I think you right now you said you last number I saw you have like I don't last number I saw you have like I don't last number I saw you have like I don't know 150 million daily active users or know 150 million daily active users or know 150 million daily active users or something. 140 whatever the the last something. 140 whatever the the last something. 140 whatever the the last public number was. Out of those 150, how public number was. Out of those 150, how public number was. Out of those 150, how many are building games? 150 million. many are building games? 150 million. many are building games? 150 million. >> I don't know if we give out our latest >> I don't know if we give out our latest >> I don't know if we give out our latest Roblox Studio numbers, but it's Roblox Studio numbers, but it's Roblox Studio numbers, but it's definitely a lot of people, but it's definitely a lot of people, but it's definitely a lot of people, but it's it's not 10 million. It's one or two it's not 10 million. It's one or two it's not 10 million. It's one or two million. And I would say the good news million. And I would say the good news million. And I would say the good news is that vision may actually return is that vision may actually return is that vision may actually return because I do think over time with AI because I do think over time with AI because I do think over time with AI acceleration and all of the things we're acceleration and all of the things we're acceleration and all of the things we're working on just like maybe in the very working on just like maybe in the very working on just like maybe in the very early days of video or YouTube was early days of video or YouTube was early days of video or YouTube was mostly consumptive. Um there was a mostly consumptive. Um there was a mostly consumptive. Um there was a little bit of this early cons you know little bit of this early cons you know little bit of this early cons you know creation and then with short form video creation and then with short form video creation and then with short form video I think we much more everyone's starting I think we much more everyone's starting I think we much more everyone's starting to make videos. I do think there's that to make videos. I do think there's that to make videos. I do think there's that potential for um something like Roblox. potential for um something like Roblox. potential for um something like Roblox. >> Yeah. Especially if they can do it in >> Yeah. Especially if they can do it in >> Yeah. Especially if they can do it in natural language. natural language. natural language. >> Exactly. So along the way um we kind of >> Exactly. So along the way um we kind of >> Exactly. So along the way um we kind of had this revelation that well maybe the had this revelation that well maybe the had this revelation that well maybe the way reason builder club is getting tired way reason builder club is getting tired way reason builder club is getting tired is not everyone wants to be a builder. A is not everyone wants to be a builder. A is not everyone wants to be a builder. A lot of people just want to have a a lot lot of people just want to have a a lot lot of people just want to have a a lot of fun. And so we had had also a big of fun. And so we had had also a big of fun. And so we had had also a big intuitive vision. What would really be intuitive vision. What would really be intuitive vision. What would really be cool another perpetual motion machine is cool another perpetual motion machine is cool another perpetual motion machine is virtual economy. And um people spend virtual economy. And um people spend virtual economy. And um people spend money they buy Robux. If we can allow money they buy Robux. If we can allow money they buy Robux. If we can allow the creators to figure out all the the creators to figure out all the the creators to figure out all the different ways someone might buy Robux different ways someone might buy Robux different ways someone might buy Robux without hurting their experience or without hurting their experience or without hurting their experience or making it any less fun, then a small making it any less fun, then a small making it any less fun, then a small portion of users will buy some Robux. portion of users will buy some Robux. portion of users will buy some Robux. They'll spend it in the game. The They'll spend it in the game. The They'll spend it in the game. The creator will accumulate those Robux in creator will accumulate those Robux in creator will accumulate those Robux in their Roblox bank account. they'll cash their Roblox bank account. they'll cash their Roblox bank account. they'll cash them out for real money and that should them out for real money and that should them out for real money and that should create another perpetual motion loop. create another perpetual motion loop. create another perpetual motion loop. Interestingly enough, we actually had a Interestingly enough, we actually had a Interestingly enough, we actually had a lot of board discussions like is that a lot of board discussions like is that a lot of board discussions like is that a good idea or not? And the um the board good idea or not? And the um the board good idea or not? And the um the board came around like I I was probably the came around like I I was probably the came around like I I was probably the biggest pusher of it because I believe biggest pusher of it because I believe biggest pusher of it because I believe some people who were hobbyists would some people who were hobbyists would some people who were hobbyists would then be able to go and earn a living. then be able to go and earn a living. then be able to go and earn a living. like you could go from hobbyist to like you could go from hobbyist to like you could go from hobbyist to earning a living on Roblox um if you earning a living on Roblox um if you earning a living on Roblox um if you could do this. So we did that very could do this. So we did that very could do this. So we did that very similar to the Roblox studio situation. similar to the Roblox studio situation. similar to the Roblox studio situation. We had a full closed loop system. And We had a full closed loop system. And We had a full closed loop system. And the closed loop system means I'm a the closed loop system means I'm a the closed loop system means I'm a creator. I can make a game or an creator. I can make a game or an creator. I can make a game or an experience. You can buy something extra experience. You can buy something extra experience. You can buy something extra for Robux. Could be a flashlight for for Robux. Could be a flashlight for for Robux. Could be a flashlight for something. As a user, I can go buy some something. As a user, I can go buy some something. As a user, I can go buy some Robux with a credit card. I can buy Robux with a credit card. I can buy Robux with a credit card. I can buy that. Um, and also from a discovery that. Um, and also from a discovery that. Um, and also from a discovery standpoint, we started showing top games standpoint, we started showing top games standpoint, we started showing top games where people are spending Robux. So, where people are spending Robux. So, where people are spending Robux. So, same thing within about an hour or two same thing within about an hour or two same thing within about an hour or two of going live. of going live. of going live. Oh my gosh, that's the top game where Oh my gosh, that's the top game where Oh my gosh, that's the top game where people are spending Roblox or Robux. people are spending Roblox or Robux. people are spending Roblox or Robux. More people went into that. More people went into that. More people went into that. >> And that's going to scale with visor >> And that's going to scale with visor >> And that's going to scale with visor growth in a way that the builder's club growth in a way that the builder's club growth in a way that the builder's club would never. And what we basically hit would never. And what we basically hit would never. And what we basically hit is an elegant, you know, economy that is an elegant, you know, economy that is an elegant, you know, economy that pretty much scales more than linearly pretty much scales more than linearly pretty much scales more than linearly with ours basically. And what we have with ours basically. And what we have with ours basically. And what we have found um without, you know, still found um without, you know, still found um without, you know, still optimizing generally for engagement and optimizing generally for engagement and optimizing generally for engagement and retention, not for money, is that retention, not for money, is that retention, not for money, is that developer incentive to balance developer incentive to balance developer incentive to balance engagement and money. if if everyone engagement and money. if if everyone engagement and money. if if everyone needs to spend money to have fun, your needs to spend money to have fun, your needs to spend money to have fun, your game isn't viral. Um, so creators have game isn't viral. Um, so creators have game isn't viral. 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You launched this second perpetual You launched this second perpetual motion machine. This virtual economy, motion machine. This virtual economy, motion machine. This virtual economy, this currency, a virtual economy. How this currency, a virtual economy. How this currency, a virtual economy. How many years into Roblox? many years into Roblox? many years into Roblox? >> Very early on. It's got to be 15 years >> Very early on. It's got to be 15 years >> Very early on. It's got to be 15 years ago. ago. ago. >> You've been building this economy for 15 >> You've been building this economy for 15 >> You've been building this economy for 15 years. years. years. >> That's right. Is there some another >> That's right. Is there some another >> That's right. Is there some another flywheel where it's like, okay, I was flywheel where it's like, okay, I was flywheel where it's like, okay, I was making games for fun. I'm a user. You making games for fun. I'm a user. You making games for fun. I'm a user. You turn me into a creator. That was all turn me into a creator. That was all turn me into a creator. That was all fun. Now you're turning me from a fun. Now you're turning me from a fun. Now you're turning me from a creator into an entrepreneur. Therefore, creator into an entrepreneur. Therefore, creator into an entrepreneur. Therefore, now I have I'm making more money. I can now I have I'm making more money. I can now I have I'm making more money. I can also It has to increase the quality of also It has to increase the quality of also It has to increase the quality of the games. Quality's gone up up up. I I the games. Quality's gone up up up. I I the games. Quality's gone up up up. I I would say quality is um ultimately going would say quality is um ultimately going would say quality is um ultimately going to be limited not just by the creativity to be limited not just by the creativity to be limited not just by the creativity of our developers, but I also feel an of our developers, but I also feel an of our developers, but I also feel an interesting thing about Roblox is in the interesting thing about Roblox is in the interesting thing about Roblox is in the video space, the camera, the display, video space, the camera, the display, video space, the camera, the display, they're getting pretty refined. like 4K they're getting pretty refined. like 4K they're getting pretty refined. like 4K camera, 4K 60 Hz display. That's a camera, 4K 60 Hz display. That's a camera, 4K 60 Hz display. That's a pretty mature technology relative to pretty mature technology relative to pretty mature technology relative to maybe, you know, black and white movies maybe, you know, black and white movies maybe, you know, black and white movies with no sound 100 years ago. In the with no sound 100 years ago. In the with no sound 100 years ago. In the video space, in the video coex, you video space, in the video coex, you video space, in the video coex, you know, co-emersion space, we're not there know, co-emersion space, we're not there know, co-emersion space, we're not there yet. like um we're really excited cuz yet. like um we're really excited cuz yet. like um we're really excited cuz there's a lot of technical people at there's a lot of technical people at there's a lot of technical people at Roblox who I think the ultimate spec is Roblox who I think the ultimate spec is Roblox who I think the ultimate spec is to video what human coexperience can be to video what human coexperience can be to video what human coexperience can be which is huge crowds of people 10,000 which is huge crowds of people 10,000 which is huge crowds of people 10,000 people people people >> but realistic >> but realistic >> but realistic >> uh photoreal. >> uh photoreal. >> uh photoreal. >> Yeah, because right now the games look >> Yeah, because right now the games look >> Yeah, because right now the games look shitty. shitty. shitty. >> We we believe we're going to get to >> We we believe we're going to get to >> We we believe we're going to get to photoreal. photoreal. photoreal. >> I'm not obviously insulting you. >> I'm not obviously insulting you. >> I'm not obviously insulting you. >> We believe we're going to get to photo >> We believe we're going to get to photo >> We believe we're going to get to photo real. real. real. >> Isn't it crazy how far you've gotten? >> Isn't it crazy how far you've gotten? >> Isn't it crazy how far you've gotten? Like you hit on something about, you Like you hit on something about, you Like you hit on something about, you know, deep in our nature. That's right. know, deep in our nature. That's right. know, deep in our nature. That's right. The fact that you don't want to do The fact that you don't want to do The fact that you don't want to do things alone. You don't want to shop things alone. You don't want to shop things alone. You don't want to shop alone. You don't want to play games alone. You don't want to play games alone. You don't want to play games alone. alone. alone. >> Bones of the platform are very >> Bones of the platform are very >> Bones of the platform are very interesting. And I think it's it's interesting. And I think it's it's interesting. And I think it's it's almost like um you know Roblox is very almost like um you know Roblox is very almost like um you know Roblox is very sophisticated, very technically sophisticated, very technically sophisticated, very technically complicated, but in a way that's the complicated, but in a way that's the complicated, but in a way that's the same traction one would have gotten on same traction one would have gotten on same traction one would have gotten on that early, you know, black and white that early, you know, black and white that early, you know, black and white movie in a movie hall without any sound movie in a movie hall without any sound movie in a movie hall without any sound and like some text between the scenes. and like some text between the scenes. and like some text between the scenes. >> I just I just saw something. So you the >> I just I just saw something. So you the >> I just I just saw something. So you the fact that you got this far with because fact that you got this far with because fact that you got this far with because the the kids don't care what the game the the kids don't care what the game the the kids don't care what the game looks like. They just want to hang out. looks like. They just want to hang out. looks like. They just want to hang out. >> We got pretty far with black and white. >> We got pretty far with black and white. >> We got pretty far with black and white. Um, no sound movies. Um, no sound movies. Um, no sound movies. >> I would, if I was in your position, I'd >> I would, if I was in your position, I'd >> I would, if I was in your position, I'd feel very confident investing and feel very confident investing and feel very confident investing and continuing to reinvest into this continuing to reinvest into this continuing to reinvest into this platform given how far you got. Could platform given how far you got. Could platform given how far you got. Could you imagine how big the platform could you imagine how big the platform could you imagine how big the platform could be if it's photo realistic? be if it's photo realistic? be if it's photo realistic? >> Um, can you imagine 10,000 simultaneous >> Um, can you imagine 10,000 simultaneous >> Um, can you imagine 10,000 simultaneous users photorealistic on a 2 gig Android users photorealistic on a 2 gig Android users photorealistic on a 2 gig Android device? device? device? >> What's the most concurrent users? You >> What's the most concurrent users? You >> What's the most concurrent users? You said the Bruno Mars was the most you said the Bruno Mars was the most you said the Bruno Mars was the most you ever had on the platform. ever had on the platform. ever had on the platform. >> I think there's two types of >> I think there's two types of >> I think there's two types of concurrency. So in Bruno Mars, we're concurrency. So in Bruno Mars, we're concurrency. So in Bruno Mars, we're talking 20 million people. Um, but those talking 20 million people. Um, but those talking 20 million people. Um, but those are sharded amongst copies of are sharded amongst copies of are sharded amongst copies of experiences. When we say the technical experiences. When we say the technical experiences. When we say the technical goal is say 10,000, that's in a goal is say 10,000, that's in a goal is say 10,000, that's in a basketball arena. And so running 10,000 basketball arena. And so running 10,000 basketball arena. And so running 10,000 concurrent people is really technically concurrent people is really technically concurrent people is really technically complicated. They may be all around the complicated. They may be all around the complicated. They may be all around the world um talking trying to get together. world um talking trying to get together. world um talking trying to get together. And so when we say concurrency, And so when we say concurrency, And so when we say concurrency, it's it's in the exact same environment it's it's in the exact same environment it's it's in the exact same environment where you can see and hear every single where you can see and hear every single where you can see and hear every single person. This is why you keep saying that person. This is why you keep saying that person. This is why you keep saying that it's a it's like a little secret that it's a it's like a little secret that it's a it's like a little secret that Roblox is actually an infrastructure Roblox is actually an infrastructure Roblox is actually an infrastructure company. company. company. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Okay. You have not yet figured out how >> Okay. You have not yet figured out how >> Okay. You have not yet figured out how to create the technology to go with to to create the technology to go with to to create the technology to go with to do what you're describing what you want do what you're describing what you want do what you're describing what you want to do. Correct. And that's what you're to do. Correct. And that's what you're to do. Correct. And that's what you're doing every day. doing every day. doing every day. >> I would say part of the job being >> I would say part of the job being >> I would say part of the job being interesting and fun is I think we have a interesting and fun is I think we have a interesting and fun is I think we have a reasonable idea of how we're going to reasonable idea of how we're going to reasonable idea of how we're going to get there. And so no time frame, not get there. And so no time frame, not get there. And so no time frame, not saying when Roblox will get 10,000 user saying when Roblox will get 10,000 user saying when Roblox will get 10,000 user photorealistic, all of that, but I think photorealistic, all of that, but I think photorealistic, all of that, but I think technically we have a reasonable idea of technically we have a reasonable idea of technically we have a reasonable idea of how we're going to get there. That's how we're going to get there. That's how we're going to get there. That's kind of exciting kind of exciting kind of exciting >> and very hard to compete with. >> and very hard to compete with. >> and very hard to compete with. >> We run the company in a way. Uh it's >> We run the company in a way. Uh it's >> We run the company in a way. Uh it's interesting. I mean, we're in a we've interesting. I mean, we're in a we've interesting. I mean, we're in a we've been in many crazy times, right? We've been in many crazy times, right? We've been in many crazy times, right? We've been in the PC revolution, the web been in the PC revolution, the web been in the PC revolution, the web revolution, mobile revolution, crypto revolution, mobile revolution, crypto revolution, mobile revolution, crypto revolution, AI acceleration revolution. revolution, AI acceleration revolution. revolution, AI acceleration revolution. We have to run the company almost as if We have to run the company almost as if We have to run the company almost as if we're imagining a virtual other company we're imagining a virtual other company we're imagining a virtual other company who really loves this space. So, we have who really loves this space. So, we have who really loves this space. So, we have like an imaginary competitor. So, we we like an imaginary competitor. So, we we like an imaginary competitor. So, we we literally think about running the literally think about running the literally think about running the company that way. Michael Michael Dell company that way. Michael Michael Dell company that way. Michael Michael Dell said this exact same thing on this said this exact same thing on this said this exact same thing on this podcast. Um where you know I think 5 podcast. Um where you know I think 5 podcast. Um where you know I think 5 years he he stood up and he's like you years he he stood up and he's like you years he he stood up and he's like you know there's a company that's going to know there's a company that's going to know there's a company that's going to be doing uh going to compete in every be doing uh going to compete in every be doing uh going to compete in every single area we're in. Uh they're going single area we're in. Uh they're going single area we're in. Uh they're going to be doing they're going to be faster to be doing they're going to be faster to be doing they're going to be faster better than us technology. And he goes better than us technology. And he goes better than us technology. And he goes and we're going to be that company. and we're going to be that company. and we're going to be that company. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> And he believes in like even if you >> And he believes in like even if you >> And he believes in like even if you don't have a crisis, you make a crisis. don't have a crisis, you make a crisis. don't have a crisis, you make a crisis. >> We we have to we have to look over here >> We we have to we have to look over here >> We we have to we have to look over here at that imaginary company and then be at that imaginary company and then be at that imaginary company and then be that company. that company. that company. >> Very similar to how Dell thinks. I just >> Very similar to how Dell thinks. I just >> Very similar to how Dell thinks. I just did this episode on Elon and he said the did this episode on Elon and he said the did this episode on Elon and he said the same thing. He's like, uh, even when same thing. He's like, uh, even when same thing. He's like, uh, even when we're it looks like we're going to win, we're it looks like we're going to win, we're it looks like we're going to win, I always assume that we're losing. You I always assume that we're losing. You I always assume that we're losing. You keep that mentality. I want to go back keep that mentality. I want to go back keep that mentality. I want to go back to like, okay, so you you stumbled in to like, okay, so you you stumbled in to like, okay, so you you stumbled in now. We're a couple years into Roblox's now. We're a couple years into Roblox's now. We're a couple years into Roblox's history. Now you have this this virtual history. Now you have this this virtual history. Now you have this this virtual economy. You can see that it's going to economy. You can see that it's going to economy. You can see that it's going to scale way better than Builder's Club. scale way better than Builder's Club. scale way better than Builder's Club. Honam, again, I want to read this tweet Honam, again, I want to read this tweet Honam, again, I want to read this tweet uh because, you know, I've got so much uh because, you know, I've got so much uh because, you know, I've got so much information about you from him. And he information about you from him. And he information about you from him. And he says in the early days of the journey says in the early days of the journey says in the early days of the journey with Roblox, a nextgen Roblox received with Roblox, a nextgen Roblox received with Roblox, a nextgen Roblox received $500 million seed round prior to launch. $500 million seed round prior to launch. $500 million seed round prior to launch. Company was called Improbable. Ho is Company was called Improbable. Ho is Company was called Improbable. Ho is kind of a spicy guy. So he was aptly kind of a spicy guy. So he was aptly kind of a spicy guy. So he was aptly named. named. named. Does Roblox used less than $10 million Does Roblox used less than $10 million Does Roblox used less than $10 million of equity to build their business to of equity to build their business to of equity to build their business to cash flow break even. Is that true? cash flow break even. Is that true? cash flow break even. Is that true? >> Yes, it is. >> Yes, it is. >> Yes, it is. >> Okay. And then you reinvested billions >> Okay. And then you reinvested billions >> Okay. And then you reinvested billions in your history of the free cash flow in in your history of the free cash flow in in your history of the free cash flow in the coming de in the coming decades from the coming de in the coming decades from the coming de in the coming decades from that competitor of this vision that that competitor of this vision that that competitor of this vision that you're talking about. you're talking about. you're talking about. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Okay. So, and then his point was 500 >> Okay. So, and then his point was 500 >> Okay. So, and then his point was 500 million that seed round of this million that seed round of this million that seed round of this competitor that died nothing over the competitor that died nothing over the competitor that died nothing over the long run. long run. long run. >> I think they're still around doing >> I think they're still around doing >> I think they're still around doing military simulation. I think um the military simulation. I think um the military simulation. I think um the reason it was 500 million I think that reason it was 500 million I think that reason it was 500 million I think that was at the peak of like VC I think it was at the peak of like VC I think it was at the peak of like VC I think it was Masan or whatever. was Masan or whatever. was Masan or whatever. >> Oh god. And that was just that's the >> Oh god. And that was just that's the >> Oh god. And that was just that's the check you get. Yeah. You know, so sorry check you get. Yeah. You know, so sorry check you get. Yeah. You know, so sorry there's no hundred million, there's 500 there's no hundred million, there's 500 there's no hundred million, there's 500 million. million. million. >> So talk about how you were so efficient. >> So talk about how you were so efficient. >> So talk about how you were so efficient. 10 million to get to break even. 10 million to get to break even. 10 million to get to break even. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How'd you do that? >> How'd you do that? >> How'd you do that? I think we've always been very good at I think we've always been very good at I think we've always been very good at product management of the surface and product management of the surface and product management of the surface and always been very good at doing the right always been very good at doing the right always been very good at doing the right minimum viable, you know, walk almost minimum viable, you know, walk almost minimum viable, you know, walk almost through the space so that do less um through the space so that do less um through the space so that do less um take the long view, know where we're take the long view, know where we're take the long view, know where we're going, uh get a lot of stuff on the way. going, uh get a lot of stuff on the way. going, uh get a lot of stuff on the way. I do think we're pretty good at I do think we're pretty good at I do think we're pretty good at eliminating eliminating eliminating distractions. So, we're we're kind of distractions. So, we're we're kind of distractions. So, we're we're kind of going down the right path and I think we going down the right path and I think we going down the right path and I think we do that pretty well. do that pretty well. do that pretty well. >> What are the some of the distractions >> What are the some of the distractions >> What are the some of the distractions that you avoided are eliminated? that you avoided are eliminated? that you avoided are eliminated? >> Oh, man. like there's just um it's it >> Oh, man. like there's just um it's it >> Oh, man. like there's just um it's it takes a lot of hubris to build platform takes a lot of hubris to build platform takes a lot of hubris to build platform because I think everyone it's so fun to because I think everyone it's so fun to because I think everyone it's so fun to build content like we all want to build build content like we all want to build build content like we all want to build games and stuff and big complicated games and stuff and big complicated games and stuff and big complicated features and a lot of times the features features and a lot of times the features features and a lot of times the features our creators need are boring and purely our creators need are boring and purely our creators need are boring and purely performance-based and uh we have a performance-based and uh we have a performance-based and uh we have a saying in the company like um per saying in the company like um per saying in the company like um per performance is a is a growth feature and performance is a is a growth feature and performance is a is a growth feature and you know we put an enormous amount of you know we put an enormous amount of you know we put an enormous amount of work on raw performance features scale work on raw performance features scale work on raw performance features scale features those kind of things that takes features those kind of things that takes features those kind of things that takes a lot of hubris so what's a raw a lot of hubris so what's a raw a lot of hubris so what's a raw performance feature performance feature performance feature >> we watch um how long it takes on a wide >> we watch um how long it takes on a wide >> we watch um how long it takes on a wide range of devices when someone clicks I range of devices when someone clicks I range of devices when someone clicks I want to play that experience to the time want to play that experience to the time want to play that experience to the time till they're interacting and um the the till they're interacting and um the the till they're interacting and um the the vision would the video we've come to vision would the video we've come to vision would the video we've come to assume on in video um in short form assume on in video um in short form assume on in video um in short form video I can just scroll through like video I can just scroll through like video I can just scroll through like we're used to that gaming has we're used to that gaming has we're used to that gaming has traditionally never had that gaming has traditionally never had that gaming has traditionally never had that gaming has traditionally like you download or you traditionally like you download or you traditionally like you download or you do this do this do this >> loading screen >> loading screen >> loading screen >> you have like this background thing >> you have like this background thing >> you have like this background thing people love um I text you or something people love um I text you or something people love um I text you or something let's go try this okay we're in people let's go try this okay we're in people let's go try this okay we're in people actually like that without maybe knowing actually like that without maybe knowing actually like that without maybe knowing it So, we we just made the decision we it So, we we just made the decision we it So, we we just made the decision we want to get the time to jump into any want to get the time to jump into any want to get the time to jump into any Roblox game down to zero basically. And Roblox game down to zero basically. And Roblox game down to zero basically. And that's very technically complicated. Um, that's very technically complicated. Um, that's very technically complicated. Um, but we do believe it has long-term but we do believe it has long-term but we do believe it has long-term growth aspects to us. growth aspects to us. growth aspects to us. >> Okay. So, you have this engine that is >> Okay. So, you have this engine that is >> Okay. So, you have this engine that is you're now making money, right? You are you're now making money, right? You are you're now making money, right? You are >> staying focused on just building this >> staying focused on just building this >> staying focused on just building this perpetual motion machine. You're not perpetual motion machine. You're not perpetual motion machine. You're not going on these other side quests. And if going on these other side quests. And if going on these other side quests. And if I'm understanding what you're saying I'm understanding what you're saying I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, then if you just limit your correctly, then if you just limit your correctly, then if you just limit your investment to things that make the user investment to things that make the user investment to things that make the user experience better, that will lead to experience better, that will lead to experience better, that will lead to more like money, more user growth, more more like money, more user growth, more more like money, more user growth, more money, more like you now you have this money, more like you now you have this money, more like you now you have this other like kind of flywheel going on other like kind of flywheel going on other like kind of flywheel going on very early. That's right. very early. That's right. very early. That's right. >> Trying to figure out basically the the >> Trying to figure out basically the the >> Trying to figure out basically the the line of my questioning is just like how line of my questioning is just like how line of my questioning is just like how the hell did you only burn $10 million? the hell did you only burn $10 million? the hell did you only burn $10 million? >> Yeah. We got viral very quickly and then >> Yeah. We got viral very quickly and then >> Yeah. We got viral very quickly and then we started monetizing very quickly we started monetizing very quickly we started monetizing very quickly >> and then you were just very careful what >> and then you were just very careful what >> and then you were just very careful what you used the company money for. you used the company money for. you used the company money for. >> That's right. And and we did rate we had >> That's right. And and we did rate we had >> That's right. And and we did rate we had secondary we went public. Um there's a secondary we went public. Um there's a secondary we went public. Um there's a certain amount of financial prudence certain amount of financial prudence certain amount of financial prudence where um I I think we didn't spend any where um I I think we didn't spend any where um I I think we didn't spend any money but we we always made sure we had money but we we always made sure we had money but we we always made sure we had enough cash along the way. Um, and so, enough cash along the way. Um, and so, enough cash along the way. Um, and so, you know, if we if we raise a secondary you know, if we if we raise a secondary you know, if we if we raise a secondary round, we might put some padding in round, we might put some padding in round, we might put some padding in there, but we actually never dipped there, but we actually never dipped there, but we actually never dipped below that initial 10 million. below that initial 10 million. below that initial 10 million. >> I heard from Ho and I think other people >> I heard from Ho and I think other people >> I heard from Ho and I think other people like you you were very careful when like you you were very careful when like you you were very careful when raising money. It was almost like they raising money. It was almost like they raising money. It was almost like they had to slowly commit. You kept saying had to slowly commit. You kept saying had to slowly commit. You kept saying no, no, no, no. uh with with some of the no, no, no, no. uh with with some of the no, no, no, no. uh with with some of the VCs we talked to, we definitely in that VCs we talked to, we definitely in that VCs we talked to, we definitely in that sense I think we did a really good job sense I think we did a really good job sense I think we did a really good job intuitively connecting with Golong VCs intuitively connecting with Golong VCs intuitively connecting with Golong VCs and we really we we got very fortunate and we really we we got very fortunate and we really we we got very fortunate whether it was um Altos or Greylock or whether it was um Altos or Greylock or whether it was um Altos or Greylock or Index or others that in a way we got uh Index or others that in a way we got uh Index or others that in a way we got uh VCs I think who could risk it all who VCs I think who could risk it all who VCs I think who could risk it all who could um not like oh my gosh this one of could um not like oh my gosh this one of could um not like oh my gosh this one of my first deals like what are we going to my first deals like what are we going to my first deals like what are we going to you know that could really go long with you know that could really go long with you know that could really go long with us and I think that was very helpful. So us and I think that was very helpful. So us and I think that was very helpful. So why was it important? Was you were just why was it important? Was you were just why was it important? Was you were just worried about dilution? Like what was worried about dilution? Like what was worried about dilution? Like what was Are you a control freak Are you a control freak Are you a control freak >> in some areas? Probably. Yeah. Like the >> in some areas? Probably. Yeah. Like the >> in some areas? Probably. Yeah. Like the more more more >> hopefully in other areas not. >> hopefully in other areas not. >> hopefully in other areas not. >> No, but you pretty vertically >> No, but you pretty vertically >> No, but you pretty vertically integrated. You like to control integrated. You like to control integrated. You like to control everything. Uh you've built it own data everything. Uh you've built it own data everything. Uh you've built it own data centers, your rendering systems, your AI centers, your rendering systems, your AI centers, your rendering systems, your AI creation tools. Uh you're funded by creation tools. Uh you're funded by creation tools. Uh you're funded by operating cash flow. I I think there's operating cash flow. I I think there's operating cash flow. I I think there's areas of my life where hopefully like areas of my life where hopefully like areas of my life where hopefully like I've decided not to. I've decided not to. I've decided not to. >> We're talking about work >> We're talking about work >> We're talking about work >> but for roadblocks >> but for roadblocks >> but for roadblocks no knowing what we're building and I I no knowing what we're building and I I no knowing what we're building and I I would say it's not just control. I think would say it's not just control. I think would say it's not just control. I think it's in a way hinging our destiny in a it's in a way hinging our destiny in a it's in a way hinging our destiny in a way. So I would say building data way. So I would say building data way. So I would say building data centers is centers is centers is >> Yeah. But the only way you own your >> Yeah. But the only way you own your >> Yeah. But the only way you own your destiny is if you maintain control, destiny is if you maintain control, destiny is if you maintain control, right? right? right? >> Exactly. So data center cost, >> Exactly. So data center cost, >> Exactly. So data center cost, performance, control. Yes. What other performance, control. Yes. What other performance, control. Yes. What other areas of the business are you like that areas of the business are you like that areas of the business are you like that with? with? with? >> Our game engine, for example, we said we >> Our game engine, for example, we said we >> Our game engine, for example, we said we we always imagined we need a multiplayer we always imagined we need a multiplayer we always imagined we need a multiplayer 3D immersive engine that does 10% of 3D immersive engine that does 10% of 3D immersive engine that does 10% of everything really well. Early on, it's everything really well. Early on, it's everything really well. Early on, it's like you should use that game engine, like you should use that game engine, like you should use that game engine, you should use that game engine. Said you should use that game engine. Said you should use that game engine. Said no, that's like a critical core part of no, that's like a critical core part of no, that's like a critical core part of our whole platform. We have to build our whole platform. We have to build our whole platform. We have to build that ourselves. that ourselves. that ourselves. >> I think you just like building things. >> I think you just like building things. >> I think you just like building things. We do like We do like We do like >> go back to your description like I built >> go back to your description like I built >> go back to your description like I built an operating system like I built the an operating system like I built the an operating system like I built the company and then I built an operating company and then I built an operating company and then I built an operating system to operate the company. system to operate the company. system to operate the company. >> Yeah. It's interesting because we um >> Yeah. It's interesting because we um >> Yeah. It's interesting because we um we're going to be building some other we're going to be building some other we're going to be building some other interesting things that we just decided interesting things that we just decided interesting things that we just decided on. on. on. >> Oh, of course. But did you do you see >> Oh, of course. But did you do you see >> Oh, of course. But did you do you see where I'm going with this? It's like I where I'm going with this? It's like I where I'm going with this? It's like I want to tie that natural in inclination want to tie that natural in inclination want to tie that natural in inclination or propensity you have for or propensity you have for or propensity you have for >> we're going to call it control for for >> we're going to call it control for for >> we're going to call it control for for the time being the time being the time being >> to also being very careful not only how >> to also being very careful not only how >> to also being very careful not only how much money you raised but who you raised much money you raised but who you raised much money you raised but who you raised it from. Is there a connection there? it from. Is there a connection there? it from. Is there a connection there? >> There might be like a thought around >> There might be like a thought around >> There might be like a thought around efficiency, growth, control efficiency, growth, control efficiency, growth, control >> because you can control your destiny. >> because you can control your destiny. >> because you can control your destiny. >> That's right. And and there's many >> That's right. And and there's many >> That's right. And and there's many components of our stack where we went components of our stack where we went components of our stack where we went exactly the opposite way and we said we exactly the opposite way and we said we exactly the opposite way and we said we don't need to control that. Like very in don't need to control that. Like very in don't need to control that. Like very in the game engine business 15 20 years ago the game engine business 15 20 years ago the game engine business 15 20 years ago like what audio system are you going to like what audio system are you going to like what audio system are you going to use? We'll use FOD. Everyone use it. use? We'll use FOD. Everyone use it. use? We'll use FOD. Everyone use it. We'll plug it in. So we we don't build We'll plug it in. So we we don't build We'll plug it in. So we we don't build everything. Like when we feel we can everything. Like when we feel we can everything. Like when we feel we can plug that thing in and use it, we'll go plug that thing in and use it, we'll go plug that thing in and use it, we'll go that way. that way. that way. 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Let's go back to this idea that I've Let's go back to this idea that I've Let's go back to this idea that I've heard you say a few times, and I want to heard you say a few times, and I want to heard you say a few times, and I want to understand more deeply that the the understand more deeply that the the understand more deeply that the the dirty little secret of Roblox is that dirty little secret of Roblox is that dirty little secret of Roblox is that we're actually an infrastructure we're actually an infrastructure we're actually an infrastructure company. company. company. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Okay. Explain this. I mean, running >> Okay. Explain this. I mean, running >> Okay. Explain this. I mean, running Roblox um behind the scenes is very Roblox um behind the scenes is very Roblox um behind the scenes is very complicated. So, when you know, grow a complicated. So, when you know, grow a complicated. So, when you know, grow a garden hits 20 million people at the garden hits 20 million people at the garden hits 20 million people at the same time, there's a lot going on there. same time, there's a lot going on there. same time, there's a lot going on there. That that's 20 million people all around That that's 20 million people all around That that's 20 million people all around the world. They're playing on a phone, a the world. They're playing on a phone, a the world. They're playing on a phone, a tablet, a computer, iOS, Android, PC, tablet, a computer, iOS, Android, PC, tablet, a computer, iOS, Android, PC, Mac, Xbox, PlayStation, MetaQuest. They Mac, Xbox, PlayStation, MetaQuest. They Mac, Xbox, PlayStation, MetaQuest. They are running translated versions of that are running translated versions of that are running translated versions of that experience. They are hitting um very experience. They are hitting um very experience. They are hitting um very quickly on Roblox um bandwidth. Um they quickly on Roblox um bandwidth. Um they quickly on Roblox um bandwidth. Um they are connecting to data centers in Poland are connecting to data centers in Poland are connecting to data centers in Poland or in Singapore or in Brazil. Um they or in Singapore or in Brazil. Um they or in Singapore or in Brazil. Um they are connecting to our core databases um are connecting to our core databases um are connecting to our core databases um as well. And running that is is very as well. And running that is is very as well. And running that is is very interestingly complex. Running a um a 3D interestingly complex. Running a um a 3D interestingly complex. Running a um a 3D simulation cheaply is very complicated. simulation cheaply is very complicated. simulation cheaply is very complicated. I said a penny an hour. So um that is I said a penny an hour. So um that is I said a penny an hour. So um that is part of why our infrastructure costs are part of why our infrastructure costs are part of why our infrastructure costs are not crazy is we can do a good job and not crazy is we can do a good job and not crazy is we can do a good job and even some countries that don't monetize even some countries that don't monetize even some countries that don't monetize very well. So we have core data centers, very well. So we have core data centers, very well. So we have core data centers, edge data centers and it's um we're edge data centers and it's um we're edge data centers and it's um we're running a lot of our own CPUs and GPUs running a lot of our own CPUs and GPUs running a lot of our own CPUs and GPUs all around that. That's what allows us all around that. That's what allows us all around that. That's what allows us to do that. to do that. to do that. >> And you started this from the very >> And you started this from the very >> And you started this from the very beginning of the company. We did. Yeah. beginning of the company. We did. Yeah. beginning of the company. We did. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Like the very beginning of Roblox was >> Like the very beginning of Roblox was >> Like the very beginning of Roblox was running on one giant server that was running on one giant server that was running on one giant server that was like right over there in my office. like right over there in my office. like right over there in my office. >> Can you describe what you see is the >> Can you describe what you see is the >> Can you describe what you see is the flywheel of the world that you built? flywheel of the world that you built? flywheel of the world that you built? >> I think the flywheel would be akin to >> I think the flywheel would be akin to >> I think the flywheel would be akin to saying what's the flywheel hopefully of saying what's the flywheel hopefully of saying what's the flywheel hopefully of the early phone system like way back in the early phone system like way back in the early phone system like way back in that day when AT&T comes out with the that day when AT&T comes out with the that day when AT&T comes out with the phone system. And there's there's phone system. And there's there's phone system. And there's there's probably some time where only 5% of probably some time where only 5% of probably some time where only 5% of people in America had a phone. But people in America had a phone. But people in America had a phone. But imagine the virality of going over to imagine the virality of going over to imagine the virality of going over to your neighbors, see them making a phone your neighbors, see them making a phone your neighbors, see them making a phone call across town. Oh my gosh, I want to call across town. Oh my gosh, I want to call across town. Oh my gosh, I want to do that, too. Look at that. And so, you do that, too. Look at that. And so, you do that, too. Look at that. And so, you know, when we look at the phone system, know, when we look at the phone system, know, when we look at the phone system, it it most likely grew pretty virally. it it most likely grew pretty virally. it it most likely grew pretty virally. Like, there's some early adopters. Like, there's some early adopters. Like, there's some early adopters. They're probably really expensive. Um They're probably really expensive. Um They're probably really expensive. Um but over time everyone saw that and so I but over time everyone saw that and so I but over time everyone saw that and so I think that's how we see Roblox going a think that's how we see Roblox going a think that's how we see Roblox going a bit. Um there's a lot of word of mouth bit. Um there's a lot of word of mouth bit. Um there's a lot of word of mouth as as the quality of the experiences as as the quality of the experiences as as the quality of the experiences grows on the platform. I think we can grows on the platform. I think we can grows on the platform. I think we can see correlation in growth there. And so see correlation in growth there. And so see correlation in growth there. And so if we can technically support what we if we can technically support what we if we can technically support what we ultimately think should be on the ultimately think should be on the ultimately think should be on the platform, I think there's potentially a platform, I think there's potentially a platform, I think there's potentially a lot of growth there. lot of growth there. lot of growth there. >> Blake Robbins is a friend of mine. He >> Blake Robbins is a friend of mine. He >> Blake Robbins is a friend of mine. He hangs out on the edge of the internet. hangs out on the edge of the internet. hangs out on the edge of the internet. He always finds these like weird things He always finds these like weird things He always finds these like weird things for me and he's the biggest Roblox bull for me and he's the biggest Roblox bull for me and he's the biggest Roblox bull that I've ever come across. This is the that I've ever come across. This is the that I've ever come across. This is the way he describes it. I'm curious if you way he describes it. I'm curious if you way he describes it. I'm curious if you agree with this. agree with this. agree with this. >> More creators brings more games. More >> More creators brings more games. More >> More creators brings more games. More games brings more players. More players games brings more players. More players games brings more players. More players spend more Robux. More spending attracts spend more Robux. More spending attracts spend more Robux. More spending attracts more creators. more creators. more creators. >> If we're ruthlessly pushing forward the >> If we're ruthlessly pushing forward the >> If we're ruthlessly pushing forward the quality of our technology stack, our quality of our technology stack, our quality of our technology stack, our economy stack, our safety stack. So, I economy stack, our safety stack. So, I economy stack, our safety stack. So, I would say I think what he's saying is if would say I think what he's saying is if would say I think what he's saying is if we walked away from Roblox right now, we walked away from Roblox right now, we walked away from Roblox right now, just kept the lights on, just kept the lights on, just kept the lights on, it's possible we would keep growing for it's possible we would keep growing for it's possible we would keep growing for a while. But that at the same time would a while. But that at the same time would a while. But that at the same time would be very, very dangerous and something we be very, very dangerous and something we be very, very dangerous and something we would never contemplate. would never contemplate. would never contemplate. >> Yeah. The way he described to me is that >> Yeah. The way he described to me is that >> Yeah. The way he described to me is that Roblox is a compounding machine with Roblox is a compounding machine with Roblox is a compounding machine with network effects and a fully functioning network effects and a fully functioning network effects and a fully functioning economy. economy. economy. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We I think we would we >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We I think we would we >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We I think we would we see we don't know what that full effect see we don't know what that full effect see we don't know what that full effect is. We had never claimed that we could is. We had never claimed that we could is. We had never claimed that we could walk away and all of that, but I do walk away and all of that, but I do walk away and all of that, but I do think simultaneously we know what we think simultaneously we know what we think simultaneously we know what we believe is technically possible and believe is technically possible and believe is technically possible and we're literally racing to build that. we're literally racing to build that. we're literally racing to build that. You mentioned safety a few times. Honam, You mentioned safety a few times. Honam, You mentioned safety a few times. Honam, when we had dinner to prep for this, he when we had dinner to prep for this, he when we had dinner to prep for this, he said something interesting that you have said something interesting that you have said something interesting that you have been essentially it's the biggest been essentially it's the biggest been essentially it's the biggest playground in the world, right? One way playground in the world, right? One way playground in the world, right? One way to think about this biggest playground to think about this biggest playground to think about this biggest playground in the world. Obviously, in the world. Obviously, in the world. Obviously, >> it's the safest playground in the world, >> it's the safest playground in the world, >> it's the safest playground in the world, but it's also huge. So, there's going to but it's also huge. So, there's going to but it's also huge. So, there's going to be some kind of, you know, issues that be some kind of, you know, issues that be some kind of, you know, issues that that come up. But he actually was saying that come up. But he actually was saying that come up. But he actually was saying like the investments you guys have been like the investments you guys have been like the investments you guys have been making for seven, eight, ten years making for seven, eight, ten years making for seven, eight, ten years around safety and AI way before anybody around safety and AI way before anybody around safety and AI way before anybody else was. You're getting so good at it, else was. You're getting so good at it, else was. You're getting so good at it, it's a it's actually a moat it's a it's actually a moat it's a it's actually a moat >> because over time it's going to get >> because over time it's going to get >> because over time it's going to get safer and safer. safer and safer. safer and safer. >> That's really beautiful that he said >> That's really beautiful that he said >> That's really beautiful that he said that. You know, we um we've seen this in that. You know, we um we've seen this in that. You know, we um we've seen this in self-driving and we're not going to self-driving and we're not going to self-driving and we're not going to claim we're self-driving, but in claim we're self-driving, but in claim we're self-driving, but in self-driving, say self-driving ends up self-driving, say self-driving ends up self-driving, say self-driving ends up being 40 times safer than the average being 40 times safer than the average being 40 times safer than the average human. when there is a self-driving human. when there is a self-driving human. when there is a self-driving incident in the news, you don't hear incident in the news, you don't hear incident in the news, you don't hear that. It's just like self-driving a kind that. It's just like self-driving a kind that. It's just like self-driving a kind of thing. I do believe um the the of thing. I do believe um the the of thing. I do believe um the the pressure we get in a good way from the pressure we get in a good way from the pressure we get in a good way from the media, from this, from that is an media, from this, from that is an media, from this, from that is an incredible um motivator for that moat. incredible um motivator for that moat. incredible um motivator for that moat. We the vast majority of what we've done We the vast majority of what we've done We the vast majority of what we've done on safety and stability, we've done on on safety and stability, we've done on on safety and stability, we've done on our own kind of in a visionary way. I'd our own kind of in a visionary way. I'd our own kind of in a visionary way. I'd say age check. We made the call on our say age check. We made the call on our say age check. We made the call on our own. It's not because of laws or own. It's not because of laws or own. It's not because of laws or anything like that, but the ultimate anything like that, but the ultimate anything like that, but the ultimate mode and the ultimate belief of what is mode and the ultimate belief of what is mode and the ultimate belief of what is going to be possible. We're going to going to be possible. We're going to going to be possible. We're going to know the age of everyone. We have AI know the age of everyone. We have AI know the age of everyone. We have AI systems watching content, watching systems watching content, watching systems watching content, watching communication. We're banding things. communication. We're banding things. communication. We're banding things. We're not sharing images. All of that. We're not sharing images. All of that. We're not sharing images. All of that. It's an enormous opportunity. And I It's an enormous opportunity. And I It's an enormous opportunity. And I think we um more and more, you know, think we um more and more, you know, think we um more and more, you know, we're starting to say, look, we know we're starting to say, look, we know we're starting to say, look, we know what the gold standard for safety is. what the gold standard for safety is. what the gold standard for safety is. We're building it. We're pretty far We're building it. We're pretty far We're building it. We're pretty far along. We're actually starting now to along. We're actually starting now to along. We're actually starting now to see other companies say, "Oh, maybe we see other companies say, "Oh, maybe we see other companies say, "Oh, maybe we should do what Roblox has done." We're should do what Roblox has done." We're should do what Roblox has done." We're seeing more and more governments say, seeing more and more governments say, seeing more and more governments say, "We like where you're going with this." "We like where you're going with this." "We like where you're going with this." Like, "This is really cool." So, I'm I'm Like, "This is really cool." So, I'm I'm Like, "This is really cool." So, I'm I'm really optimistic about, you know, really optimistic about, you know, really optimistic about, you know, having this force of innovation and what having this force of innovation and what having this force of innovation and what we're doing there. we're doing there. we're doing there. >> Okay. But is this something that you've >> Okay. But is this something that you've >> Okay. But is this something that you've been building and compounding since your been building and compounding since your been building and compounding since your co-founder? co-founder? co-founder? >> All the way since we built the first >> All the way since we built the first >> All the way since we built the first moderation system moderation system moderation system >> like the first year in into that. Okay. >> like the first year in into that. Okay. >> like the first year in into that. Okay. Explain what like can you I don't know Explain what like can you I don't know Explain what like can you I don't know if you can talk about this publicly like if you can talk about this publicly like if you can talk about this publicly like what have you built to make it what have you built to make it what have you built to make it >> I I think we have seen AI is more >> I I think we have seen AI is more >> I I think we have seen AI is more consistent over time and scales more consistent over time and scales more consistent over time and scales more than humans. And so the ability to run than humans. And so the ability to run than humans. And so the ability to run every asset, everything on the platform every asset, everything on the platform every asset, everything on the platform through AI, all content, image, through AI, all content, image, through AI, all content, image, everything everyone's building, everything everyone's building, everything everyone's building, everything everyone's saying and just everything everyone's saying and just everything everyone's saying and just get better and better and better at get better and better and better at get better and better and better at that. It's just been an enormous thing. that. It's just been an enormous thing. that. It's just been an enormous thing. And and so when we, you know, the part And and so when we, you know, the part And and so when we, you know, the part of AI is is very much the humanfacing of AI is is very much the humanfacing of AI is is very much the humanfacing thing like, oh, I've got an AI prompter, thing like, oh, I've got an AI prompter, thing like, oh, I've got an AI prompter, I can do all of that. Behind the scenes I can do all of that. Behind the scenes I can do all of that. Behind the scenes though at Roblox for many many years we though at Roblox for many many years we though at Roblox for many many years we were pushing very early AI BERT models were pushing very early AI BERT models were pushing very early AI BERT models primitive type models to drive safety. primitive type models to drive safety. primitive type models to drive safety. So so I mean I I do believe it's a mode So so I mean I I do believe it's a mode So so I mean I I do believe it's a mode and I I do believe we've done something and I I do believe we've done something and I I do believe we've done something very unique in that um what's going on very unique in that um what's going on very unique in that um what's going on out there right now is we're very out there right now is we're very out there right now is we're very upfront like we do have people under 13 upfront like we do have people under 13 upfront like we do have people under 13 on our platform. It's an enormous on our platform. It's an enormous on our platform. It's an enormous responsibility. we focus on once again responsibility. we focus on once again responsibility. we focus on once again all of the aspects of how they play and all of the aspects of how they play and all of the aspects of how they play and learn and do things, but that's very learn and do things, but that's very learn and do things, but that's very different than being some other platform different than being some other platform different than being some other platform that says, "Oh yeah, it's okay. No one's that says, "Oh yeah, it's okay. No one's that says, "Oh yeah, it's okay. No one's under 13. We're good." And so I I do under 13. We're good." And so I I do under 13. We're good." And so I I do think long-term leaning in and being think long-term leaning in and being think long-term leaning in and being part of that is an enormous capability. part of that is an enormous capability. part of that is an enormous capability. >> Something came to mind when you said, >> Something came to mind when you said, >> Something came to mind when you said, you know, now other companies are you know, now other companies are you know, now other companies are looking at what we've done in this and looking at what we've done in this and looking at what we've done in this and like, hey, I want some of that, too. like, hey, I want some of that, too. like, hey, I want some of that, too. Would you ever sell this kind of Would you ever sell this kind of Would you ever sell this kind of technology to other companies? I think technology to other companies? I think technology to other companies? I think it's worth thinking about like like I it's worth thinking about like like I it's worth thinking about like like I believe we will end up with the best um believe we will end up with the best um believe we will end up with the best um AI tech for text for voice maybe for AI tech for text for voice maybe for AI tech for text for voice maybe for video doing a wide range of safety video doing a wide range of safety video doing a wide range of safety things either monitoring for critical things either monitoring for critical things either monitoring for critical harms flagging adjusting all of that harms flagging adjusting all of that harms flagging adjusting all of that it's not unreasonable to think we might it's not unreasonable to think we might it's not unreasonable to think we might do that we've already started open do that we've already started open do that we've already started open sourcing some of our stuff so there's a sourcing some of our stuff so there's a sourcing some of our stuff so there's a consortium actually with some various consortium actually with some various consortium actually with some various companies involved in safety we've open companies involved in safety we've open companies involved in safety we've open sourced um one of our voice models. sourced um one of our voice models. sourced um one of our voice models. We've open sourced one of our Sentinel We've open sourced one of our Sentinel We've open sourced one of our Sentinel models. So, we are starting to go in a models. So, we are starting to go in a models. So, we are starting to go in a way down that path. way down that path. way down that path. >> So, the majority of the revenue that >> So, the majority of the revenue that >> So, the majority of the revenue that Roblox makes now just comes from this Roblox makes now just comes from this Roblox makes now just comes from this platform, this virtual economy, this platform, this virtual economy, this platform, this virtual economy, this world. Correct. world. Correct. world. Correct. >> But you have to have a million of these >> But you have to have a million of these >> But you have to have a million of these giant model companies coming and wanting giant model companies coming and wanting giant model companies coming and wanting to train their data because you have 12 to train their data because you have 12 to train their data because you have 12 14 billion. What's the hours of month? 14 billion. What's the hours of month? 14 billion. What's the hours of month? >> It makes it so simple, right? like we're >> It makes it so simple, right? like we're >> It makes it so simple, right? like we're >> how many hours of >> how many hours of >> how many hours of >> 13 billion plus a month. >> 13 billion plus a month. >> 13 billion plus a month. >> So 13 billion of actual people >> So 13 billion of actual people >> So 13 billion of actual people interacting interacting interacting like what does this data set look like? like what does this data set look like? like what does this data set look like? >> So there's a lot of um data sets out >> So there's a lot of um data sets out >> So there's a lot of um data sets out there that are video coupled with ASDW there that are video coupled with ASDW there that are video coupled with ASDW you know it's just like a human you know it's just like a human you know it's just like a human interaction model. What's cool is interaction model. What's cool is interaction model. What's cool is because we're running this 3D simulator because we're running this 3D simulator because we're running this 3D simulator and we're running it on our own cloud and we're running it on our own cloud and we're running it on our own cloud and all of the experiences and games are and all of the experiences and games are and all of the experiences and games are running somewhat on the same simulator, running somewhat on the same simulator, running somewhat on the same simulator, we have really interesting data. We have we have really interesting data. We have we have really interesting data. We have 3D location of everything. We have um 3D location of everything. We have um 3D location of everything. We have um how people are trying to move around how people are trying to move around how people are trying to move around with their avatar. We have um obviously with their avatar. We have um obviously with their avatar. We have um obviously what they're texting and typing in a what they're texting and typing in a what they're texting and typing in a privacy safe way. Um, but what's what's privacy safe way. Um, but what's what's privacy safe way. Um, but what's what's fun about it is we would of course never fun about it is we would of course never fun about it is we would of course never sell that data. sell that data. sell that data. >> That's what I was gonna ask. >> That's what I was gonna ask. >> That's what I was gonna ask. >> Never ever ever ever for several >> Never ever ever ever for several >> Never ever ever ever for several reasons. One is um just from a values reasons. One is um just from a values reasons. One is um just from a values thing of respecting the community. Can thing of respecting the community. Can thing of respecting the community. Can you imagine like what kind of whacked you imagine like what kind of whacked you imagine like what kind of whacked out decision that would be? Roblox is out decision that would be? Roblox is out decision that would be? Roblox is selling their 3D user data. We would selling their 3D user data. We would selling their 3D user data. We would never do that. Um, also I believe over never do that. Um, also I believe over never do that. Um, also I believe over time that this data it's going to be time that this data it's going to be time that this data it's going to be very interesting data to for example very interesting data to for example very interesting data to for example imagine a future where a creator imagine a future where a creator imagine a future where a creator wants to make a really beautiful Roblox wants to make a really beautiful Roblox wants to make a really beautiful Roblox game and have a bunch of agents working game and have a bunch of agents working game and have a bunch of agents working all night long iterative wigs loops all night long iterative wigs loops all night long iterative wigs loops recoding testing recoding testing and recoding testing recoding testing and recoding testing recoding testing and imagine just like we do with code now imagine just like we do with code now imagine just like we do with code now creator want to do their whole game that creator want to do their whole game that creator want to do their whole game that way. So we go back to you guys are way. So we go back to you guys are way. So we go back to you guys are buying 50 users a day from Google. Now buying 50 users a day from Google. Now buying 50 users a day from Google. Now if you're building a a game on your if you're building a a game on your if you're building a a game on your platform, you can actually use real like platform, you can actually use real like platform, you can actually use real like the the data from actual users on Roblox the the data from actual users on Roblox the the data from actual users on Roblox to test what you're building. to test what you're building. to test what you're building. >> There's a level of indirection there. I >> There's a level of indirection there. I >> There's a level of indirection there. I would say that would say that would say that >> what's the indirection? >> what's the indirection? >> what's the indirection? >> The level of indirection is making >> The level of indirection is making >> The level of indirection is making amazing NPCs that look and behave and amazing NPCs that look and behave and amazing NPCs that look and behave and act like humans by training on that data act like humans by training on that data act like humans by training on that data for our users. So, what we'd like to be for our users. So, what we'd like to be for our users. So, what we'd like to be able is you're building your cool able is you're building your cool able is you're building your cool experience. You want 10,000 virtual experience. You want 10,000 virtual experience. You want 10,000 virtual testers. You want to describe how they testers. You want to describe how they testers. You want to describe how they act, what they do, and put those into act, what they do, and put those into act, what they do, and put those into your experience and use that to test your experience and use that to test your experience and use that to test overnight. overnight. overnight. >> I like that idea a lot. That's very >> I like that idea a lot. That's very >> I like that idea a lot. That's very interesting. The your stocks seems to be interesting. The your stocks seems to be interesting. The your stocks seems to be like all over the place sometimes. Why like all over the place sometimes. Why like all over the place sometimes. Why do you think like you have these these do you think like you have these these do you think like you have these these huge Roblox bulls are just like this is huge Roblox bulls are just like this is huge Roblox bulls are just like this is a compounding machine and then what do a compounding machine and then what do a compounding machine and then what do you think is like most misunderstood you think is like most misunderstood you think is like most misunderstood about what you're building? Why wouldn't about what you're building? Why wouldn't about what you're building? Why wouldn't this keep getting bigger and more this keep getting bigger and more this keep getting bigger and more valuable in the future? valuable in the future? valuable in the future? >> I feel like I can't predict the stock >> I feel like I can't predict the stock >> I feel like I can't predict the stock market. market. market. >> No. And and I think though I think >> No. And and I think though I think >> No. And and I think though I think ultimately, you know, it's showing I ultimately, you know, it's showing I ultimately, you know, it's showing I think the future for many companies is think the future for many companies is think the future for many companies is like we're in a time right now where raw like we're in a time right now where raw like we're in a time right now where raw user growth and engagement growth is user growth and engagement growth is user growth and engagement growth is mixing with a lot of factors. I think um mixing with a lot of factors. I think um mixing with a lot of factors. I think um technical excellence, continued technical excellence, continued technical excellence, continued innovation, having people understanding innovation, having people understanding innovation, having people understanding where we're going with this. I mean, where we're going with this. I mean, where we're going with this. I mean, there's just going to be more and more there's just going to be more and more there's just going to be more and more of that. So, I'm optimistic. And you see of that. So, I'm optimistic. And you see of that. So, I'm optimistic. And you see AI as a giant tailwind for you guys. AI as a giant tailwind for you guys. AI as a giant tailwind for you guys. >> It's an interesting time, right? Like >> It's an interesting time, right? Like >> It's an interesting time, right? Like it's a really interesting time. People it's a really interesting time. People it's a really interesting time. People are questioning all types of different are questioning all types of different are questioning all types of different types of companies. What companies are types of companies. What companies are types of companies. What companies are going to grow twice as fast? What going to grow twice as fast? What going to grow twice as fast? What companies are going to this happen? For companies are going to this happen? For companies are going to this happen? For us, it's so many areas. It's not just us, it's so many areas. It's not just us, it's so many areas. It's not just making games better and faster. It's making games better and faster. It's making games better and faster. It's increasing quality, time to market of increasing quality, time to market of increasing quality, time to market of experiences. And I do think ultimately experiences. And I do think ultimately experiences. And I do think ultimately AI will power some of what we've said AI will power some of what we've said AI will power some of what we've said around our ultimate spec. around our ultimate spec. around our ultimate spec. >> Are there completely AI generated games >> Are there completely AI generated games >> Are there completely AI generated games already on the platform? already on the platform? already on the platform? >> I would say we're getting close. And I'd >> I would say we're getting close. And I'd >> I would say we're getting close. And I'd say um right now Roblox Studio is say um right now Roblox Studio is say um right now Roblox Studio is starting to embed a pile of AI capable starting to embed a pile of AI capable starting to embed a pile of AI capable type functionality. The beauty though type functionality. The beauty though type functionality. The beauty though that we have all of our Roblox cloud that we have all of our Roblox cloud that we have all of our Roblox cloud open to MCP server and all of that open to MCP server and all of that open to MCP server and all of that stuff. We're now we're just seeing devs stuff. We're now we're just seeing devs stuff. We're now we're just seeing devs like push at this with AI coding tools like push at this with AI coding tools like push at this with AI coding tools and creator tools and like start to and creator tools and like start to and creator tools and like start to create that flywheel. create that flywheel. create that flywheel. >> And these are these can be relatively >> And these are these can be relatively >> And these are these can be relatively small teams even individuals that make small teams even individuals that make small teams even individuals that make wildly popular games. Correct. wildly popular games. Correct. wildly popular games. Correct. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> So let's get something I I don't even >> So let's get something I I don't even >> So let's get something I I don't even know how long it's taking me why it's know how long it's taking me why it's know how long it's taking me why it's taking me so long to get into this part taking me so long to get into this part taking me so long to get into this part because this is the part I'm actually because this is the part I'm actually because this is the part I'm actually most fascinated is the size of the most fascinated is the size of the most fascinated is the size of the businesses that people are building on businesses that people are building on businesses that people are building on the platform. the platform. the platform. >> I mean DevX is well over a billion bucks >> I mean DevX is well over a billion bucks >> I mean DevX is well over a billion bucks a year. You know that's the amount. a year. You know that's the amount. a year. You know that's the amount. explain to people what dev explain to people what dev explain to people what dev >> and that's the amount of raw money >> and that's the amount of raw money >> and that's the amount of raw money flowing to creators on the platform. Um flowing to creators on the platform. Um flowing to creators on the platform. Um it's it's really been I'd say it's a it's it's really been I'd say it's a it's it's really been I'd say it's a really interesting time because in the really interesting time because in the really interesting time because in the midst of AI throughout the game industry midst of AI throughout the game industry midst of AI throughout the game industry as a whole there's been a lot of you as a whole there's been a lot of you as a whole there's been a lot of you know maybe logic legitimate concern know maybe logic legitimate concern know maybe logic legitimate concern about a lot of creative people of having about a lot of creative people of having about a lot of creative people of having AI displace what they do. The thing AI displace what they do. The thing AI displace what they do. The thing we've said is we believe that money we've said is we believe that money we've said is we believe that money flowing to creators is going to flowing to creators is going to flowing to creators is going to increase, not decrease. And so that's increase, not decrease. And so that's increase, not decrease. And so that's pretty good news. If that money flowing pretty good news. If that money flowing pretty good news. If that money flowing to the Roblox creative community is to the Roblox creative community is to the Roblox creative community is increasing, increasing, increasing, we should see even more opportunity for we should see even more opportunity for we should see even more opportunity for creators. Um, we we've also seen creators. Um, we we've also seen creators. Um, we we've also seen something really interesting. You know, something really interesting. You know, something really interesting. You know, top creators on Roblox are making tens top creators on Roblox are making tens top creators on Roblox are making tens and 20s and 50s and millions of dollars. and 20s and 50s and millions of dollars. and 20s and 50s and millions of dollars. like these are pretty. like these are pretty. like these are pretty. >> I heard some of them are making that a >> I heard some of them are making that a >> I heard some of them are making that a month. month. month. >> Uh I don't I can't say that, but I would >> Uh I don't I can't say that, but I would >> Uh I don't I can't say that, but I would say they're making say they're making say they're making >> they say that. I don't know if it's >> they say that. I don't know if it's >> they say that. I don't know if it's true. I heard three kids in the middle true. I heard three kids in the middle true. I heard three kids in the middle of nowhere making $25 million a month. I of nowhere making $25 million a month. I of nowhere making $25 million a month. I won't confirm or deny, but I I would say won't confirm or deny, but I I would say won't confirm or deny, but I I would say like one thing when you hear that as as like one thing when you hear that as as like one thing when you hear that as as a measure of platform health is if we a measure of platform health is if we a measure of platform health is if we look at the year-on-year growth rate of look at the year-on-year growth rate of look at the year-on-year growth rate of creator 1, 10, 100, and a thousand, creator 1, 10, 100, and a thousand, creator 1, 10, 100, and a thousand, creator thousand year is consistently creator thousand year is consistently creator thousand year is consistently growing faster than creator number one. growing faster than creator number one. growing faster than creator number one. >> Wait, say again. >> Wait, say again. >> Wait, say again. >> The curve is even flattening more. um >> The curve is even flattening more. um >> The curve is even flattening more. um the growth rate in bookings per year for the growth rate in bookings per year for the growth rate in bookings per year for creator number a thousand um ranked by creator number a thousand um ranked by creator number a thousand um ranked by how much they're making. They are how much they're making. They are how much they're making. They are growing faster than creator number one. growing faster than creator number one. growing faster than creator number one. How curve is flattening wider um use How curve is flattening wider um use How curve is flattening wider um use around the world more opportunity for around the world more opportunity for around the world more opportunity for vertical content um more opportunity for vertical content um more opportunity for vertical content um more opportunity for some content for older people. So that some content for older people. So that some content for older people. So that is a a flattening of the curve which is a a flattening of the curve which is a a flattening of the curve which bodess well for creator thousand. bodess well for creator thousand. bodess well for creator thousand. >> What does the longtail look like at the >> What does the longtail look like at the >> What does the longtail look like at the very end? They're making a couple very end? They're making a couple very end? They're making a couple hundred bucks a month. Like what is that hundred bucks a month. Like what is that hundred bucks a month. Like what is that $10 a month? $10 a month? $10 a month? >> I think the top thousand is on average >> I think the top thousand is on average >> I think the top thousand is on average making a million bucks. making a million bucks. making a million bucks. >> I heard it's higher than that. I think >> I heard it's higher than that. I think >> I heard it's higher than that. I think it's like 1.3 million. it's like 1.3 million. it's like 1.3 million. >> Okay. And then I think as we go beyond >> Okay. And then I think as we go beyond >> Okay. And then I think as we go beyond though that curve goes way out to though that curve goes way out to though that curve goes way out to creator 10,000 beyond where there's creator 10,000 beyond where there's creator 10,000 beyond where there's significant money being made out on that significant money being made out on that significant money being made out on that part of the curve. part of the curve. part of the curve. >> Do you see a world you think about how >> Do you see a world you think about how >> Do you see a world you think about how like in the last like decade and a half, like in the last like decade and a half, like in the last like decade and a half, you know, like when you ask people what you know, like when you ask people what you know, like when you ask people what they wanted to be when they grow up like they wanted to be when they grow up like they wanted to be when they grow up like the the YouTuber wasn't even on there, the the YouTuber wasn't even on there, the the YouTuber wasn't even on there, you know, 15 years ago. Now it's like you know, 15 years ago. Now it's like you know, 15 years ago. Now it's like always in the top, you know, five or always in the top, you know, five or always in the top, you know, five or three or whatever the case is. If you do three or whatever the case is. If you do three or whatever the case is. If you do have this perpetual motion machine, you have this perpetual motion machine, you have this perpetual motion machine, you keep going. And I think once people keep going. And I think once people keep going. And I think once people understand the size of the business that understand the size of the business that understand the size of the business that they could build on this and they have a they could build on this and they have a they could build on this and they have a love for what they're doing, you know, love for what they're doing, you know, love for what they're doing, you know, you're usually only really great if you you're usually only really great if you you're usually only really great if you actually love it. Like I think being a actually love it. Like I think being a actually love it. Like I think being a Roblox creator would could displace Roblox creator would could displace Roblox creator would could displace being a YouTube creator. being a YouTube creator. being a YouTube creator. >> Who knows? I do. >> Who knows? I do. >> Who knows? I do. >> Why' you make that noise? There's Before >> Why' you make that noise? There's Before >> Why' you make that noise? There's Before Who knows? What was that noise? It's Who knows? What was that noise? It's Who knows? What was that noise? It's funny because I get these I get these funny because I get these I get these funny because I get these I get these short form videos in various platforms short form videos in various platforms short form videos in various platforms of really cool Roblox creators living in of really cool Roblox creators living in of really cool Roblox creators living in like this giant studio like this giant studio like this giant studio driving these cool cars doing short form driving these cool cars doing short form driving these cool cars doing short form video about how cool it is to be a video about how cool it is to be a video about how cool it is to be a Roblox creator. I think what they're Roblox creator. I think what they're Roblox creator. I think what they're saying is if you do this there is the saying is if you do this there is the saying is if you do this there is the potential to make a great business. So potential to make a great business. So potential to make a great business. So what do you guys do to foster like that what do you guys do to foster like that what do you guys do to foster like that message or foster the the size of the message or foster the the size of the message or foster the the size of the businesses that it can be built? That's businesses that it can be built? That's businesses that it can be built? That's pretty viral. People know I think what pretty viral. People know I think what pretty viral. People know I think what we're trying to do is create the tech we're trying to do is create the tech we're trying to do is create the tech literally like you said the technical literally like you said the technical literally like you said the technical infrastructure infrastructure infrastructure so more and more of them can bring their so more and more of them can bring their so more and more of them can bring their ideas to reality like um we've said ideas to reality like um we've said ideas to reality like um we've said publicly we want to get to 10% of global publicly we want to get to 10% of global publicly we want to get to 10% of global gaming on the platform. I think that gaming on the platform. I think that gaming on the platform. I think that means you taking that black and white means you taking that black and white means you taking that black and white film projector and turning it into a 4K film projector and turning it into a 4K film projector and turning it into a 4K projector in the in the gaming world. So projector in the in the gaming world. So projector in the in the gaming world. So you know we think a lot about the you know we think a lot about the you know we think a lot about the responsibility of building the platform responsibility of building the platform responsibility of building the platform for them. So the more photorealistic for them. So the more photorealistic for them. So the more photorealistic that it gets the wider the market gets. that it gets the wider the market gets. that it gets the wider the market gets. >> I think um in many dimensions >> I think um in many dimensions >> I think um in many dimensions concurrency um performance cost photo concurrency um performance cost photo concurrency um performance cost photo realism ease of creation AI acceleration realism ease of creation AI acceleration realism ease of creation AI acceleration and creation all of those things help and creation all of those things help and creation all of those things help bring ideas to reality. bring ideas to reality. bring ideas to reality. >> But out of all of those what is the most >> But out of all of those what is the most >> But out of all of those what is the most important you would think? important you would think? important you would think? >> I'd say it's load balanced actually. So >> I'd say it's load balanced actually. So >> I'd say it's load balanced actually. So I think one of the good things we've I think one of the good things we've I think one of the good things we've done is we if I looked at that mix and I done is we if I looked at that mix and I done is we if I looked at that mix and I looked at where our engineers are looked at where our engineers are looked at where our engineers are working, it's not like everyone is working, it's not like everyone is working, it's not like everyone is working on that one thing. We've got a working on that one thing. We've got a working on that one thing. We've got a balance of those things that are pushing balance of those things that are pushing balance of those things that are pushing forward. forward. forward. >> Do you have funds coming in and trying >> Do you have funds coming in and trying >> Do you have funds coming in and trying to buy up these games and like rolling to buy up these games and like rolling to buy up these games and like rolling them up? them up? them up? >> There is a market out there. I think if >> There is a market out there. I think if >> There is a market out there. I think if anything, we're trying to get the anything, we're trying to get the anything, we're trying to get the message out to our creators like our message out to our creators like our message out to our creators like our Devril team can help you assess what Devril team can help you assess what Devril team can help you assess what your game might actually be worth cuz a your game might actually be worth cuz a your game might actually be worth cuz a lot of them are worth a lot of money. lot of them are worth a lot of money. lot of them are worth a lot of money. The The The >> platform itself has never tried to buy >> platform itself has never tried to buy >> platform itself has never tried to buy any of that. any of that. any of that. >> We never have. I think what we want >> We never have. I think what we want >> We never have. I think what we want though some transparency in the market though some transparency in the market though some transparency in the market so you know early creators can actually so you know early creators can actually so you know early creators can actually know what kind of a gem they're sitting know what kind of a gem they're sitting know what kind of a gem they're sitting on. on. on. >> Have you seen people being taken >> Have you seen people being taken >> Have you seen people being taken advantage of? advantage of? advantage of? >> Not really. I've seen like amazing >> Not really. I've seen like amazing >> Not really. I've seen like amazing actually profit sharing, revenue actually profit sharing, revenue actually profit sharing, revenue sharing, like things that have really sharing, like things that have really sharing, like things that have really worked out for buyer and whatever. But I worked out for buyer and whatever. But I worked out for buyer and whatever. But I do think over time we want there to be a do think over time we want there to be a do think over time we want there to be a lot of kind of transparency in that. lot of kind of transparency in that. lot of kind of transparency in that. >> It's almost like you built a game to >> It's almost like you built a game to >> It's almost like you built a game to play entrepreneur and you turn them into play entrepreneur and you turn them into play entrepreneur and you turn them into real entrepreneurs real entrepreneurs real entrepreneurs >> in a sense. It's an entrepreneur game. >> in a sense. It's an entrepreneur game. >> in a sense. It's an entrepreneur game. >> Yeah. If if I wanted to teach like a you >> Yeah. If if I wanted to teach like a you >> Yeah. If if I wanted to teach like a you know a ninth grader about you know know a ninth grader about you know know a ninth grader about you know entrepreneurship like Roblox might be entrepreneurship like Roblox might be entrepreneurship like Roblox might be the best place to start. You could the best place to start. You could the best place to start. You could literally um teach them how to use AI literally um teach them how to use AI literally um teach them how to use AI coding tools, come up with a crazy idea, coding tools, come up with a crazy idea, coding tools, come up with a crazy idea, get it live um on Roblox now. They could get it live um on Roblox now. They could get it live um on Roblox now. They could buy traffic, they could spend $50. Um buy traffic, they could spend $50. Um buy traffic, they could spend $50. Um same thing, buy users on Roblox that same thing, buy users on Roblox that same thing, buy users on Roblox that whole cycle. whole cycle. whole cycle. >> Yeah, I'd be very interested in that >> Yeah, I'd be very interested in that >> Yeah, I'd be very interested in that because when I talked to Toby Luke, the because when I talked to Toby Luke, the because when I talked to Toby Luke, the founder of Shopify, founder of Shopify, founder of Shopify, >> um he said something interesting like he >> um he said something interesting like he >> um he said something interesting like he thought, you know, his job is to create thought, you know, his job is to create thought, you know, his job is to create more entrepreneurs. Like that's the way more entrepreneurs. Like that's the way more entrepreneurs. Like that's the way he looked at what he think. he looked at what he think. he looked at what he think. >> Yeah. I think it's more important than >> Yeah. I think it's more important than >> Yeah. I think it's more important than ever, especially with young people. if ever, especially with young people. if ever, especially with young people. if you look at like their empathy or their you look at like their empathy or their you look at like their empathy or their like uh like uh like uh >> they're way more attracted to like >> they're way more attracted to like >> they're way more attracted to like socialistic ideas, you know, than than I socialistic ideas, you know, than than I socialistic ideas, you know, than than I think like your generation was and think like your generation was and think like your generation was and definitely my generation was, especially definitely my generation was, especially definitely my generation was, especially in, you know, in America. in, you know, in America. in, you know, in America. >> It would be fun to imagine an >> It would be fun to imagine an >> It would be fun to imagine an entrepreneurship class that kind of entrepreneurship class that kind of entrepreneurship class that kind of connected all the dots. I build this, do connected all the dots. I build this, do connected all the dots. I build this, do this, can see this happening. That could this, can see this happening. That could this, can see this happening. That could be super educational. be super educational. be super educational. >> What's your biggest threat to that would >> What's your biggest threat to that would >> What's your biggest threat to that would inhibit you from building what you want inhibit you from building what you want inhibit you from building what you want to build? like what you're describing is to build? like what you're describing is to build? like what you're describing is actually I actually feel the biggest actually I actually feel the biggest actually I actually feel the biggest threat would be not imagining that threat would be not imagining that threat would be not imagining that competitive company and not building competitive company and not building competitive company and not building what we think that competitive company what we think that competitive company what we think that competitive company is. So the biggest threat could be is. So the biggest threat could be is. So the biggest threat could be complacency rather than we can see complacency rather than we can see complacency rather than we can see what's technically possible let's build what's technically possible let's build what's technically possible let's build that. that. that. >> How often does this imaginary company >> How often does this imaginary company >> How often does this imaginary company come up inside the discussions you're come up inside the discussions you're come up inside the discussions you're having in your real company? Now and having in your real company? Now and having in your real company? Now and then I would say given the speed at then I would say given the speed at then I would say given the speed at which we think some stuff's happening which we think some stuff's happening which we think some stuff's happening actually it's interesting the whole actually it's interesting the whole actually it's interesting the whole history of the company has arguably been history of the company has arguably been history of the company has arguably been a motion from a motion from a motion from quarterly things monthly weekly daily quarterly things monthly weekly daily quarterly things monthly weekly daily like the whole pace of our company I like the whole pace of our company I like the whole pace of our company I think has just been a historical think has just been a historical think has just been a historical acceleration of the pacing of the acceleration of the pacing of the acceleration of the pacing of the company company company >> the pacing at which you move pacing in >> the pacing at which you move pacing in >> the pacing at which you move pacing in which we make decisions um pacing at which we make decisions um pacing at which we make decisions um pacing at which we gently adjust without like which we gently adjust without like which we gently adjust without like swinging the tiller widely the the speed swinging the tiller widely the the speed swinging the tiller widely the the speed at which we check um in the speed at at which we check um in the speed at at which we check um in the speed at which we track things it's gotten faster which we track things it's gotten faster which we track things it's gotten faster over time. over time. over time. >> So the way I would think about what >> So the way I would think about what >> So the way I would think about what you've been telling me is you have this you've been telling me is you have this you've been telling me is you have this excessively long view fact that 20 excessively long view fact that 20 excessively long view fact that 20 almost 25 years ago you're like almost 25 years ago you're like almost 25 years ago you're like >> that's actually one of our values take >> that's actually one of our values take >> that's actually one of our values take the long view. the long view. the long view. >> Okay. Well so 25 years ago or 20 years >> Okay. Well so 25 years ago or 20 years >> Okay. Well so 25 years ago or 20 years ago this is going to be the last company ago this is going to be the last company ago this is going to be the last company that I'm going to work on. Uh so that I'm going to work on. Uh so that I'm going to work on. Uh so therefore you even said I think earlier therefore you even said I think earlier therefore you even said I think earlier in the conversation it's 30 40 50 year in the conversation it's 30 40 50 year in the conversation it's 30 40 50 year kind of view. So an excessively long kind of view. So an excessively long kind of view. So an excessively long longest view in the room basically. So longest view in the room basically. So longest view in the room basically. So we think about this with infinite number we think about this with infinite number we think about this with infinite number of daily iterations towards what you're of daily iterations towards what you're of daily iterations towards what you're trying to build. trying to build. trying to build. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> A combination of those two >> A combination of those two >> A combination of those two >> totally the infinite uh iterations would >> totally the infinite uh iterations would >> totally the infinite uh iterations would be a complimentary value which is get be a complimentary value which is get be a complimentary value which is get stuff done. And so we we say get stuff stuff done. And so we we say get stuff stuff done. And so we we say get stuff done means continuous iteration but done means continuous iteration but done means continuous iteration but pointing in the right long direction. pointing in the right long direction. pointing in the right long direction. So, something we haven't talked about, So, something we haven't talked about, So, something we haven't talked about, but I think I heard you speak uh I think but I think I heard you speak uh I think but I think I heard you speak uh I think this you said this in your Stanford this you said this in your Stanford this you said this in your Stanford talk, which I thought was interesting talk, which I thought was interesting talk, which I thought was interesting that there was multiple like neardeath that there was multiple like neardeath that there was multiple like neardeath experiences or almost death experiences experiences or almost death experiences experiences or almost death experiences of Roblox. We haven't talked about that of Roblox. We haven't talked about that of Roblox. We haven't talked about that at all. at all. at all. >> There were several I I think um one was >> There were several I I think um one was >> There were several I I think um one was the economy thing like if we had not the economy thing like if we had not the economy thing like if we had not figured that out, that would have been figured that out, that would have been figured that out, that would have been very dicey. very dicey. very dicey. >> Looking back now, I mean, you were >> Looking back now, I mean, you were >> Looking back now, I mean, you were obsessed with science fiction. There obsessed with science fiction. There obsessed with science fiction. There were all these other like virtual were all these other like virtual were all these other like virtual economies right at the time. economies right at the time. economies right at the time. >> Second Life, >> Second Life, >> Second Life, >> Second Life, their.com. >> Second Life, their.com. >> Second Life, their.com. >> Yeah. all of that stuff. >> Yeah. all of that stuff. >> Yeah. all of that stuff. >> So, were you taking ideas from that as >> So, were you taking ideas from that as >> So, were you taking ideas from that as well? well? well? >> Their.com and Second Life, they really >> Their.com and Second Life, they really >> Their.com and Second Life, they really were early and in parallel to us in a were early and in parallel to us in a were early and in parallel to us in a way. They were so early and so parallel. way. They were so early and so parallel. way. They were so early and so parallel. They made these very big visionary They made these very big visionary They made these very big visionary things. You know, Second Life's things. You know, Second Life's things. You know, Second Life's architecture was contiguous Earth kind architecture was contiguous Earth kind architecture was contiguous Earth kind of thing, which had some issues around of thing, which had some issues around of thing, which had some issues around scaling because in a contiguous Earth scaling because in a contiguous Earth scaling because in a contiguous Earth type situation, which is just the way type situation, which is just the way type situation, which is just the way the real world makes, there's only one the real world makes, there's only one the real world makes, there's only one copy of that roller coaster. And when 30 copy of that roller coaster. And when 30 copy of that roller coaster. And when 30 people want to go on that roller people want to go on that roller people want to go on that roller coaster, no more can go. So, we I think coaster, no more can go. So, we I think coaster, no more can go. So, we I think we were a lot more practical around we were a lot more practical around we were a lot more practical around scale. We're like, "No, man. If there's scale. We're like, "No, man. If there's scale. We're like, "No, man. If there's if there's a 100,000 copies of that if there's a 100,000 copies of that if there's a 100,000 copies of that roller coaster, we're going to figure roller coaster, we're going to figure roller coaster, we're going to figure out how to route people to that so we out how to route people to that so we out how to route people to that so we could have 10 million people riding the could have 10 million people riding the could have 10 million people riding the roller coaster. But there were a lot of roller coaster. But there were a lot of roller coaster. But there were a lot of early early visions out there, I would early early visions out there, I would early early visions out there, I would say, at the same time. For sure. say, at the same time. For sure. say, at the same time. For sure. >> What was the argument from the the the >> What was the argument from the the the >> What was the argument from the the the opposing board members to to doing the opposing board members to to doing the opposing board members to to doing the economy? economy? economy? >> We had a lot of fun going on the >> We had a lot of fun going on the >> We had a lot of fun going on the platform. Like we're just like, whoa, platform. Like we're just like, whoa, platform. Like we're just like, whoa, everyone's having fun building, you everyone's having fun building, you everyone's having fun building, you know, this viral stuff. would we distort know, this viral stuff. would we distort know, this viral stuff. would we distort it if people could make money? And but it if people could make money? And but it if people could make money? And but the idea the idea that look in the the idea the idea that look in the the idea the idea that look in the traditional game market you have studios traditional game market you have studios traditional game market you have studios with hundreds of people like we could with hundreds of people like we could with hundreds of people like we could probably get better quality if we nudged probably get better quality if we nudged probably get better quality if we nudged in that direction. Other near-death in that direction. Other near-death in that direction. Other near-death rough things is our economy got hacked rough things is our economy got hacked rough things is our economy got hacked once. So we had to like shut down the once. So we had to like shut down the once. So we had to like shut down the whole economy for two days literally whole economy for two days literally whole economy for two days literally that was somewhat scary and the reason that was somewhat scary and the reason that was somewhat scary and the reason is we had just been so early moving so is we had just been so early moving so is we had just been so early moving so fast that our the way our economy was fast that our the way our economy was fast that our the way our economy was working right now wasn't like double working right now wasn't like double working right now wasn't like double entry bookkeeping and journaling and all entry bookkeeping and journaling and all entry bookkeeping and journaling and all of that and we had no flow control of that and we had no flow control of that and we had no flow control anywhere in the economy. So, this was a anywhere in the economy. So, this was a anywhere in the economy. So, this was a famous economy hack very early in the famous economy hack very early in the famous economy hack very early in the days of Roblox where the second the days of Roblox where the second the days of Roblox where the second the economy was hacked, money could bounce economy was hacked, money could bounce economy was hacked, money could bounce from place to place very quickly. We from place to place very quickly. We from place to place very quickly. We caught it pretty quickly and we just caught it pretty quickly and we just caught it pretty quickly and we just said, "Shut everything down." We had to said, "Shut everything down." We had to said, "Shut everything down." We had to shut Roblox down for a while, then bring shut Roblox down for a while, then bring shut Roblox down for a while, then bring it back up without the economy on. it back up without the economy on. it back up without the economy on. Luckily, we caught it pretty quickly and Luckily, we caught it pretty quickly and Luckily, we caught it pretty quickly and only, you know, a small portion of the only, you know, a small portion of the only, you know, a small portion of the money had moved around, but we had to money had moved around, but we had to money had moved around, but we had to run for several days with no economic run for several days with no economic run for several days with no economic activity. activity. activity. >> Were you already a public company when >> Were you already a public company when >> Were you already a public company when this happened? No, this happened? No, this happened? No, no, no, no. Like the SE the SEC does no, no, no. Like the SE the SEC does no, no, no. Like the SE the SEC does some really good stuff and I would say some really good stuff and I would say some really good stuff and I would say some of the good stuff if we go through some of the good stuff if we go through some of the good stuff if we go through a lot of the controls in the SEC, those a lot of the controls in the SEC, those a lot of the controls in the SEC, those were things we did 15 years ago, you were things we did 15 years ago, you were things we did 15 years ago, you know, as far as this economy and backups know, as far as this economy and backups know, as far as this economy and backups and all of that. and all of that. and all of that. >> When you were designing this, were there >> When you were designing this, were there >> When you were designing this, were there any like books you were reading or like any like books you were reading or like any like books you were reading or like were there any examples? You're like, were there any examples? You're like, were there any examples? You're like, okay, I'm going to take an economy that okay, I'm going to take an economy that okay, I'm going to take an economy that I see functioning well in the real world I see functioning well in the real world I see functioning well in the real world and just make the virtual version. How and just make the virtual version. How and just make the virtual version. How did you even come up with the set of did you even come up with the set of did you even come up with the set of rules that you had? We I would say all rules that you had? We I would say all rules that you had? We I would say all four of us founders were very into high four of us founders were very into high four of us founders were very into high integrity systems. Um like what's the integrity systems. Um like what's the integrity systems. Um like what's the amount of float in the economy, how much amount of float in the economy, how much amount of float in the economy, how much currency we have, do you trade it and currency we have, do you trade it and currency we have, do you trade it and not trade it? We saw very early on in not trade it? We saw very early on in not trade it? We saw very early on in our economy, we had something really our economy, we had something really our economy, we had something really interesting in the early days of video interesting in the early days of video interesting in the early days of video games, people would have multiple games, people would have multiple games, people would have multiple currencies. And we had something that in currencies. And we had something that in currencies. And we had something that in retrospect the Roblox community really retrospect the Roblox community really retrospect the Roblox community really loves, but isn't really a good idea, I loves, but isn't really a good idea, I loves, but isn't really a good idea, I don't think. And that is a a don't think. And that is a a don't think. And that is a a participationbased currency called participationbased currency called participationbased currency called tickets as well as a moneybacked tickets as well as a moneybacked tickets as well as a moneybacked currency called Robux. We the the thing currency called Robux. We the the thing currency called Robux. We the the thing that comes out is when you have a that comes out is when you have a that comes out is when you have a participationbased participationbased participationbased uh currency, you get one ticket for uh currency, you get one ticket for uh currency, you get one ticket for every day you log in. That's really not every day you log in. That's really not every day you log in. That's really not a very good way to have people log into a very good way to have people log into a very good way to have people log into your system. You know, it's much better. your system. You know, it's much better. your system. You know, it's much better. They just love chatting with their They just love chatting with their They just love chatting with their friends or playing games. The other friends or playing games. The other friends or playing games. The other thing is any currency that um a user can thing is any currency that um a user can thing is any currency that um a user can get from work or log in will immediately get from work or log in will immediately get from work or log in will immediately be botted now. And so we just we could be botted now. And so we just we could be botted now. And so we just we could see people trying to bot that currency see people trying to bot that currency see people trying to bot that currency all day long and we had to ultimately all day long and we had to ultimately all day long and we had to ultimately get rid of it. Um so we had some good get rid of it. Um so we had some good get rid of it. Um so we had some good learnings with that. But ultimately, our learnings with that. But ultimately, our learnings with that. But ultimately, our current economy has, you know, as I've current economy has, you know, as I've current economy has, you know, as I've said, has kind of scaled better than said, has kind of scaled better than said, has kind of scaled better than linear with user engagement. linear with user engagement. linear with user engagement. >> You mentioned there's an advertising >> You mentioned there's an advertising >> You mentioned there's an advertising business inside of Roblox. business inside of Roblox. business inside of Roblox. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> How long has that been going on? >> How long has that been going on? >> How long has that been going on? >> It's just started, pretty recent. But if >> It's just started, pretty recent. But if >> It's just started, pretty recent. But if you go on to the Roblox homepage, you you go on to the Roblox homepage, you you go on to the Roblox homepage, you can see some of the experiences say can see some of the experiences say can see some of the experiences say sponsored. Right now, we have a sponsored. Right now, we have a sponsored. Right now, we have a long-term vision of what percent that long-term vision of what percent that long-term vision of what percent that is. But it's actually really helpful is. But it's actually really helpful is. But it's actually really helpful because um most of our discovery because um most of our discovery because um most of our discovery primarily organic. We've been very primarily organic. We've been very primarily organic. We've been very transparent with discovery. Um, and so transparent with discovery. Um, and so transparent with discovery. Um, and so one of the things the Roblox creators one of the things the Roblox creators one of the things the Roblox creators like is we share all of the signals of like is we share all of the signals of like is we share all of the signals of what's boosting something. It's almost what's boosting something. It's almost what's boosting something. It's almost as if we were YouTube or Tik Tok or real as if we were YouTube or Tik Tok or real as if we were YouTube or Tik Tok or real saying here's all the factors that you saying here's all the factors that you saying here's all the factors that you know bring you up here. But for some know bring you up here. But for some know bring you up here. But for some creators who want to do that creators who want to do that creators who want to do that entrepreneurial experience by 50 users entrepreneurial experience by 50 users entrepreneurial experience by 50 users um very early, their game isn't viral um very early, their game isn't viral um very early, their game isn't viral yet. They can use that sponsored thing yet. They can use that sponsored thing yet. They can use that sponsored thing just like when we bought traffic from just like when we bought traffic from just like when we bought traffic from Google. Google. Google. >> I got one more question for you. Okay, >> I got one more question for you. Okay, >> I got one more question for you. Okay, we're almost out of time. Out of time. we're almost out of time. Out of time. we're almost out of time. Out of time. Are you jumping up? You want to leave Are you jumping up? You want to leave Are you jumping up? You want to leave already? already? already? >> No, I'm stretching. I want to give an >> No, I'm stretching. I want to give an >> No, I'm stretching. I want to give an expansive answer. expansive answer. expansive answer. >> Why do things like this? Why are you >> Why do things like this? Why are you >> Why do things like this? Why are you doing podcasts? doing podcasts? doing podcasts? >> I I do feel there's a lot of depth to >> I I do feel there's a lot of depth to >> I I do feel there's a lot of depth to the way we run the company that podcast the way we run the company that podcast the way we run the company that podcast is the format to get it out and um I is the format to get it out and um I is the format to get it out and um I love podcast. Um, in today's media, if I love podcast. Um, in today's media, if I love podcast. Um, in today's media, if I know who the podcast is, like that's all know who the podcast is, like that's all know who the podcast is, like that's all I need to find great content. I like I need to find great content. I like I need to find great content. I like podcast cuz it's it's typically not podcast cuz it's it's typically not podcast cuz it's it's typically not edited. It's not showing up in a edited. It's not showing up in a edited. It's not showing up in a discovery mechanism. So, so I feel it's discovery mechanism. So, so I feel it's discovery mechanism. So, so I feel it's one of the truest forms of media. one of the truest forms of media. one of the truest forms of media. >> Okay. I'm glad you use the word depth >> Okay. I'm glad you use the word depth >> Okay. I'm glad you use the word depth because what I want to do since we're because what I want to do since we're because what I want to do since we're out of time now, I want to run this back out of time now, I want to run this back out of time now, I want to run this back like as much as you want me to be every like as much as you want me to be every like as much as you want me to be every six months or something like that six months or something like that six months or something like that because I do these selfishly like I'm because I do these selfishly like I'm because I do these selfishly like I'm obsessed with making podcasts but like obsessed with making podcasts but like obsessed with making podcasts but like I'm obsessed with entrepreneurs and I I'm obsessed with entrepreneurs and I I'm obsessed with entrepreneurs and I want to know like want to know like want to know like >> something Toby Lucas said to me that was >> something Toby Lucas said to me that was >> something Toby Lucas said to me that was fascinating. It's just like there's not fascinating. It's just like there's not fascinating. It's just like there's not like one right way to do something in a like one right way to do something in a like one right way to do something in a company. There's probably a hundred company. There's probably a hundred company. There's probably a hundred right ways, right? right ways, right? right ways, right? >> And you have to figure out like what >> And you have to figure out like what >> And you have to figure out like what makes sense for the context you're in makes sense for the context you're in makes sense for the context you're in and then who you are as the founder and and then who you are as the founder and and then who you are as the founder and like what you're trying to accomplish. like what you're trying to accomplish. like what you're trying to accomplish. >> And I have a better understanding of >> And I have a better understanding of >> And I have a better understanding of you, you, you, >> way better understanding than when we >> way better understanding than when we >> way better understanding than when we started the conversation. Even though I started the conversation. Even though I started the conversation. Even though I listen to every single interview you've listen to every single interview you've listen to every single interview you've done, your company is very misunderstood done, your company is very misunderstood done, your company is very misunderstood and there's not a lot about you as a and there's not a lot about you as a and there's not a lot about you as a person. And yet I find these people that person. And yet I find these people that person. And yet I find these people that I respect their opinion very much and I respect their opinion very much and I respect their opinion very much and like this guy is special and the way like this guy is special and the way like this guy is special and the way he's building his company is he's building his company is he's building his company is interesting. And I'm still I feel like I interesting. And I'm still I feel like I interesting. And I'm still I feel like I just like scratched just like scratched just like scratched >> I'll take that as a compliment. You >> I'll take that as a compliment. You >> I'll take that as a compliment. You should take it as a compliment. You should take it as a compliment. You should take it as a compliment. You build something amazing. Um, so thank build something amazing. Um, so thank build something amazing. Um, so thank you very much for the time. I hope you you very much for the time. I hope you you very much for the time. I hope you uh accept the imit the future invitation uh accept the imit the future invitation uh accept the imit the future invitation and every time we have this conversation and every time we have this conversation and every time we have this conversation just like peel one more layer of the just like peel one more layer of the just like peel one more layer of the onion of like what you're building and onion of like what you're building and onion of like what you're building and why you're doing it. I think it'd be why you're doing it. I think it'd be why you're doing it. I think it'd be very fascinating. very fascinating. very fascinating. >> It' be fun to peel another layer. >> It' be fun to peel another layer. >> It' be fun to peel another layer. >> All right. Perfect. Thanks. >> All right. Perfect. Thanks. >> All right. Perfect. Thanks. >> I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please >> I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please >> I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please remember to subscribe wherever you're remember to subscribe wherever you're remember to subscribe wherever you're listening and leave a review. And make listening and leave a review. And make listening and leave a review. And make sure you listen to my other podcast sure you listen to my other podcast sure you listen to my other podcast founders. For almost a decade, I've founders. For almost a decade, I've founders. For almost a decade, I've obsessively read over 400 biographies of obsessively read over 400 biographies of obsessively read over 400 biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs. history's greatest entrepreneurs. history's greatest entrepreneurs. searching for ideas that you can use in searching for ideas that you can use in searching for ideas that you can use in your work. Most of the guests you hear your work. Most of the guests you hear your work. 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