Riz Ahmed: The Shame I Carried Nearly Broke Me

Key Takeaway

The distance between your public and private self is the amount of shame you carry. This gap—between how you want to be seen and who you are when no one's watching—measures the performance we're all living. Instead of chasing external validation through awards and applause, seek moments of flow where you forget yourself entirely. That's when you're truly alive, not auditioning for approval but present in the moment.

Episode Overview

Riz Ahmed joins Jay Shetty to discuss his series 'Bait,' exploring identity, validation-seeking, and the performance of everyday life. They dive deep into childhood memories, the gap between public and private selves, shame, finding flow states, and the dangers of living as if life is one continuous audition.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Riz Ahmed: The Shame I Carried Nearly Broke Me from On Purpose. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

I have long deep history with this critical voice and this shame and I really think it can kill you man. What part of you still feels like it doesn't belong? Different parts of me in every place that I go to. If you felt totally comfortable everywhere you went, then you're probably not in the right place. What is RZ Amed's dream? External markers of achievement, the award, the round of applause. They don't nourish you on a soul level. And the thing that I'm seeking now is a sense of flow.

That moment when you forget yourself. Hey everyone, welcome back to OnPurpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest is someone I've been wanting to have in this seat for god knows how many years. Uh I'm joined by the one, the only Riz Ahmed, Academy Award-winning actor, writer, producer, and artist known for Sound of Metal, Rogue One, and The Night of and for bringing deeply human stories to life. Riz is currently starring in Bait. If you haven't seen it, make sure you do.

A series exploring identity and the tension between who we are and how we're seen. His re-imagined film Hamlet and Digger, his new film coming later this year. Please welcome to On Purpose, Riz Ahmed. RZ, honestly, whether it was Post 911 Blues, whether it was Four Lions, we've been with you from the start. I've been cheering you on. I am a huge fan of how you put yourself out there, the conversations you have, your multid-disciplinary art form, and honestly, I've been waiting for this moment, I feel like, for like god, at least at least 7 years since I launched the show.

Likewise, Jay, because I'm watching you and I've just been rooting for you from the beginning. And um you know, we were just saying this before the camera started rolling. We have so many people in common in the work world, but also in the personal world cuz we grew up not too far away from each other in kind of overlapping worlds as well. So seeing you doing your thing, blazing a trail, it's just super inspiring. So likewise, man, I've been itching to get in here and yeah, talk to you.

you. you. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I was thinking about it and and I I want to vouch for this cuz I like doing this when I've got someone on the show when I've got a memory that stands out to me. And it was probably around 5 years ago, I think it was, you'd been nominated for an Oscar. We had this South Asian Oscars evening in LA and you were at the party. It was probably the only time I've actually been in the room with you. It was me, you, and we were talking to Bella, Bella Bajari, who's chief content officer, Netflix, dear friend.

And you said to Bella, you were like, "Give this guy a show, man." Like, you were like, you were vouching for me even back then. You're like, "Give him a show, Bella. Like, what are you doing?" And I was like, "This is so like, "This is I was like, "This is so nice. I'll take it." Like, you're the man of the moment. You're nominated for the Oscar and you're trying to get me a show. And now we got three shows on Netflix. Soing, you know, I was like, I feel like you planted a very important seed.

I want to give you your flowers. Give you credit for that. Man, for me, the reason I was rooting for you was because because because of not just what you have to say, because of course, what you say is is so rooted in this ancient tradition. It's how you say it. It's how approachable it is. It's how human it feels. It's how relatable it felt. just even selfishly on a personal level when I hear you speak when I see the way that you're relating to people and making these things that can sometimes feel very abstract or kind of elusive ideas esoteric ideas and bring them into the everyday bring them into our daily lives.

It makes me feel less stupid. Do you know what I mean? It makes me like, okay, yeah, okay. Yeah. All right. I can I understand that. I get to grips with that. And and I'm certainly one of those people who for a long time thought, what's this meditation stuff? What is this? This is kind of a bit airy fairy. And it actually became such a big part of my life for many years and changed my life in so many different ways. It's really because of people like you making it relatable, making it human.

So yeah, on a personal level, I was like, I need more J [ __ ] in my life. You know what? Be kind, man. Thank you. That means the world. It's an incredible moment for you. I feel like you're everywhere in a good way. I feel like bait has just pierced through the zeitgeist and the culture. I mean 95% on Rotten Tomatoes. Unbelievable. Like that that is ridiculous to even think about. And like to see the kind of conversations it started. It's not just, "Oh my god, you should watch this show.

It's really good." It started conversations about identity, about shame, about mental health, about inner critic, about guilt, about all these things. And And you see it wherever wherever I go on my feed, whether it's Tik Tok or Instagram. Either it's you or someone talking about the show. How does it feel to put yourself out there in such a vulnerable way? Because this story has so much of a correlation with your reality. How does it feel to put yourself out there almost not wanting validation and then to be validated for it?

It's really interesting, isn't it? Because the whole show is about validation seeking and how it can lead us down a really dangerous path. Um, it's very natural. It's very human. We're social animals to want that connection, want that praise, want that affirmation to be seen. But if you are purely dependent on that external validation and you're not giving yourself that self-love, you can become completely lost. And that's what the show is about. And the show is really inspired by my own journey with that. You know, I've been on that journey.

I continue to go on that journey. I haven't fixed it. I haven't solved the equation. It's a constant battle, you know, trying to find that self-love and not just be on a treadmill looking for it from other places. So the show is about that about that about that and about trying to get past validation. So in a weird way when people were validating the show, I'm like, this is a trap. You know, it's interesting. I was saying something like this to someone the other day, which is I I've never been great at receiving praise.

Just now when you were saying all these nice things about me, I was actually saying, "Okay, I'm here with J Shay. I'm going to open my heart, try and be present, and receive receive the good energy." But something in me, and I'm sure you've come come up against this with all kinds of people. I don't know how you deal with it yourself even. Something about receiving praise sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable. uncomfortable. uncomfortable. And so I'm trying to find that balance of not being desperate and hungry for it.

You know, you can't live off a diet of this candy, of these dopamine hits of people's brain, but also just receive it and avoid it. I can sometimes swing between those extremes. You know, there's on the one hand is googling yourself late at night and on the other hand it's like going, "No, no, nothing is rubbish." And so I'm just trying to find that healthy middle ground because the show's about that in a way. Yeah. No, I I I find that powerful because I feel like it's almost like my friend said this to me the other day and I really liked it.

It's this idea of like too tight, too loose. Like sometimes you're holding yourself too tightly like everything matters and everything's important. everything's important. everything's important. Yes. Yes. Yes. And then sometimes you don't hold yourself tightly at all. It's too loose and you're like ah nothing matters. No, it doesn't matter what anyone else says about me. And it's like, if you think about it, you're always trying to oscillate between too tight, too loose. You're trying to find that perfect balance of like, how do I hold myself in a way I don't suffocate myself or strangle myself, but how do I hold myself in a way that I don't also just let myself go, where where nothing is important or valuable.

And I was thinking about it cuz in the show, we get so many of these flashbacks into Sha's childhood, his teenage years. I've seen the show. I loved it. And I have been talking about it with colleagues and friends and people who have all had interesting reflections on it. Both people from South Asian backgrounds and people from completely not. And that's what I love about the show is that it starts really fascinating dialogues beyond culture and gender and race. But one of the things that stood out I wanted to ask you is what's a childhood memory that you have that you would say defines who you are today?

When I was about 8 years old, me and my brother got put up against the wall by a couple of um skin heads, right? Uh for people outside of the British context, they're kind of like it was like a racist movement basically. And they put a knife to my brother's throat. I remember being 8 years old looking up at him. He was kind of defending me. And it was just the this kind of shocking realization that oh, I'm different. I'm different in a way that that that means that I could be in danger.

And feeling otherred in that way made me more vigilant, made me more aware of my identity. In many ways, has set me on a lifelong journey of trying to like square the circle of my identity. In some periods of time, I tried to code switch a lot. If I've gone to a predominantly white upper class school, which I did, I'd code switch in that way. Then I'd hang out in my neighborhood. I'd code switch another way. And I think that journey has defined I think that's how why I started acting was kind of code switching from one social environment to another.

It's it's a kind of performance, right? And where I'm at now and really what the show Bait is also trying to do and what it's about, it's about that search for identity. So, I'm trying to bring all those different sides of me together, not edit and censor myself when I walk into a room. I did this monologue for SNL UK recently and I was working with the writers on it and it was about identity crisis and I was like, I'm having an identity crisis. The UK is having everyone's having ident.

We're all trying to work out who we are. And I said, "Look, that's why I sound like a mix between Stormsy and Rishi Sunnak." And just trying to embrace that, be playful about that confusion. I think that moment of realizing my difference and navigating identity was a big one. The other one's a lot more of a playful memory. memory. memory. Every time there was a community gathering at some point, the aunties would be high on Coca-Cola and Fanta and they would say, "Bring Gou down." Gou was my name in the community.

Golu means roundo. Yeah. roundo. Yeah. roundo. Yeah. Little spherical round object. Don't apparently my brother named me Gulu. I had a round head growing up. Don't ask. Bring Gulu down. It's time. And I would perform and I would do Michael Jackson dancing and I would do like just r and it honestly they basically I'd be smashed off Coca-Cola as like a six-year-old just like just freaking out just throwing my limbs, you know. And I just remember these rows of aunties just sat there clapping just feel like this is the best feeling ever.

I'm just getting to express these quite wild animal movements. I mean it look nothing like how dancing should look. I just basically freak out in this really expressive way and be affirmed for it. Quite strange. But I don't know if anyone else can relate to that. If any other kids out there were brought down to dance for the aunties. But I say the mixture of those two things, you know, self-expression and navigating identity is something that could be a bit dangerous. Those two elements, I think, have kind of really forged my whole path.

And I've been exploring how those two things relate to each other my whole life. Yeah. I'm fascinated by those two memories because they, like you said, one's playful and has certain consequences with what happens with that, the validation, the the praise, the applause for losing control, and then the other one is actually quite to be in that threatening place as a young man with your brother and feeling the the racist implications of having that kind of interaction with someone. So many people go I mean, sure, I'm sure you experienced a lot of 100%.

When you said Gulu, I was like, so I was overweight growing up. So I was bullied for that. I was bullied for the color of my skin because the area I grew up in, there weren't a lot of people of our color. And so I I get it like I I hear that. And that doesn't make it any more normal or easy or better for any of us. It's just like, no, that's what you went through. But I can also relate to the other side of the aunties.

I can totally relate to everything you just said where I'm just like we'd be at like an event and the act had pulled out or something and then my mom would be like, "All right, you got to go on stage and save the day." And I'm like, "What do you mean? Like, I haven't prepared anything. I'm not ready for this." And I'd have to figure it out. We're all out here just trying to please aunties. aunties. aunties. Literally. Literally. What is up with that? And the that?

What is up with that? And the funny thing is where I was saying this to you earlier and I I saved it, but I was like, was like, was like, you know, like you you kind of you lived the auntie's dream. Like you went to a great school. great school. great school. You then went to Oxford and did PP. For anyone who doesn't know, that's the prime minister's degree. Like the prime ministers of England, I think pretty much every single one of them did PPE at Oxford as a subject.

Like is it is the most world-class degree could possibly do in the whole entire country. Then you go I want to become an actor and then you go be an actor too. I'm like you did it like you you did the academic dream, you did the you did your dream like when you look at it from that perspective of hey wait a minute I actually lived every dream here. when you look back and go what is my dream now or uncovering what what is RZ Ahmed's dream do you have anything that feels close you know it's so interesting hearing you say this because I don't know if you have this Jay if I sit back here and I say Jay you've done this thing you brought kind of mindfulness and this eastern philosophy to like the world you've got the world's number one health podcast all this kind of stuff you're aware of those things possibly as facts but your internal experience of it does it really land like that or does it feel like a series of mistakes that went right, moments of hubris that went wrong, a journey that's constantly unfolding that you're not quite in control of.

And in many ways, like you don't stop to like breathe, but maybe you I mean, I'm sure you stop to breathe all the time, so you stop to kind of in, you know, kind of really have check out that perspective. But when you're saying um these things about kind of living the dream or whatever, I guess I don't see it like that. I feel very grateful for my journey. And maybe the reason why I don't see it like that is I realized that all these kind of external markers of achievement, they don't really land.

They don't really land in the way you think they will. the award, the round of applause, these fleeting moments, these moments of kind of these dopamine hits, those moments of the little kid dancing in front of the aunties being handed another cup of Coca-Cola in a round of applause and a you know those moments they feel nice. They feel good, but they but they're very very fleeting. They don't nourish you on a soul level. Those external things I think what we're searching for as artists, as storytellers, as actors, but really any of us is a sense of flow.

You know that moment when you forget yourself? yourself? yourself? Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. It's that feeling when you're not literally selfconscious literally selfconscious literally selfconscious and you talk about this so much, right? And this this feeling of connection to all things and all people and every now and again in a fleeting moment whether you're lost in a jigsaw puzzle you love or video game or a or on stage performing or in a conversation playing with your kid, you forget yourself. And that's the thing I'm chasing. It's trying to live that as much as possible, both in my art and in my life.

I want to try and just find a way of just living as close as possible to that pocket rather than these milestones and these trophies and these things of achievement. Of course, we all have an ego. We need one. I'm still setting goals. I'm still setting targets. We're still living in this world. But I've realized in a weird way, having achieved some of those things, having ticked some of those boxes, it doesn't feed your soul in the way you think it will. It makes so much sense because I think as humans, we're only good at living in the two extremes.

So, one is life is all about goals. It's about the milestone. It's about winning and I want to get there. And then the other option is, oh, none of that matters. I've just got to be. And really, it's all in the middle somewhere like you're saying, which is I need to have goals and I need to know where I'm going, but I know that that's not the thing that's going to feed my soul or make me feel full. I've been just thinking about this a lot lately because I talk about these things and I practice these things, but then you meet someone who does it better than you, more naturally, more effortlessly, and you go, go, go, "You're talking about me, Jay?" Yeah.

Yeah. I was talking about you. I was was was Thank you. I was talking about one of my friends who's like she can make like if she saw a beautiful colored flower on the side of a road, she would stop and grab them and feel like someone just gave her a million dollars. dollars. dollars. Oh, amazing. Oh, amazing. Oh, amazing. And it sounds ridiculous to say it, but having watched her do that, I'm just like that's what I want. Like to be a, you know, to be able to turn that really ordinary simple moment Yes.

Yes. Yes. into feeling like it's the most or we see this in kids. I know you're a dad, too. It's like, you see this in kids when you watch a kid just marvel at something and they're lost in the moment. You know, there's that classic stereotypical thing of like, I'm trying to get everyone out of the house. Put on your shoes cuz we've got somewhere to be. Milestone, objective, achievement, goal, and the kid is like playing with the Velcro on the shoes and it's that Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. That's what it's all about. It's this moment. What you're saying kind of reminds me of obviously there's that cliche, it's not the destination, it's the journey. But I think you need to set the destination so that you get to experience the journey. And that's what I'm talking about. It's like you can aim to achieve XY Z. Just know that XY Z isn't going to be the juice. The juice is going to be that feeling of flow that if you're lucky, you might feel trying to get there.

You know, the love that we've got on bait was overwhelming for me in a way because it was so personal because it was drawn from such a all my insecurities and neurosis and such a personal place. Not cuz I'm trying to do something that's all about me, but actually because I think those feelings are universal. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. I started I was actually saying to my wife, it's like should I be enjoying that more? Should it be landing more? And that's when I realized like it's actually the reward was the process of making it was the process of reaching inside to a vulnerable place and kind of offering it up.

There's that moment of offering is that moment of letting go. There's this sample at the start of a JCole track JCole track JCole track um called the climbback. The track's called the climbback and I think it's a sample from a very old audio book called the tower of leadership. Mhm. And it says you need to ask yourself why are you doing this work? Is it to get or is it to let go? That's it. When you reaching inside to share something and it's an offering, that is the reward, man.

That feeling of lightness, that expansiveness, the things you get back from it, they're nice, but it's never going to be the juice like that letting go was. So, I'm trying to making my peace with that. Now, summer is all about freedom, and your jewelry should reflect that. I think there's something special about summer because it invites us to be a little lighter. We travel more, spend longer evenings with the people we love, and collect small moments that end up becoming the memories we hold on to all year.

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That's huge though to even be attempting to do that because it's so easy to stay on the hamster wheel. It's almost easier to just keep producing, keep building, keep putting out, keep doing that thing. You had this great line. I think you said it in one of the interviews and it's it's it's in the themes debate. It's even in I believe it might even be in the show, but you said like life just feels like one big audition. And I wanted to ask you about that.

I think it's such a great line because I think people are exhausted feeling like their life just feels like one big audition big time. And we see obviously your character Charlotte like he's going for an actual audition but then his life turns into pretending like everything has to be about that moment and he has to be that character in his normal life and I think we do that to ourselves. Is it possible to live as if life is not an audition? Yeah, that is really the central idea of the show.

That's why the show is based around an audition. It's not really a show about being an actor. It's about this. We always feel like we are all auditioning and that's because I think of social media to a considerable extent. The attention economy that we all exist in that our value is about our visibility. And so we're all constantly performing this version of ourselves that we think we should be that we think people want us to be. That's true on your LinkedIn profile, on a Zoom call, on your social media, just as it is for an for an actor, right?

Like, here's the script. I have to behave like a more desirable, put together, successful version of myself, but actually I can't make sense of this script of life and I'm having a panic attack. And so, how do you switch that off? How do you kind of like stop performing? I think is really interesting because you could say, well, you know what? It's about being really vulnerable. vulnerable. vulnerable. It's about embracing your messiness. You can also get into like performative vulnerability. I think so much of it isn't about what you do.

It's about why you're doing it and how you're doing it. And I have to be honest, at least for myself, like I've never gotten to a point where I feel like I've cracked this, but I have some days, some afternoons where I just feel like it's not about me. me. me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've forgotten myself. I'm in that sense of flow. of flow. of flow. And ironically, that's when things are going the best, you know, when I'm not thinking about them in that way. But I don't know, I mean, how do you kind of find this as well, particularly kind of operating in a world that's about mindfulness and meditation and finding your purpose on a spiritual level, but of course, the medium is often digital and social media.

And how do you square that circle? Cuz it must be in a way it's similar is like being an actor. 100%. you know, you're trying to do something spiritual and forgetting yourself, but you're doing it with people watching. I haven't figured it out either. It would be stupid to say I have. And and I'm grappling with it, too. And that's why this interview is so exciting to me because the themes in bait are so universal. No matter what you do, and like you said, whether someone's applying for a job on LinkedIn or whether they're just trying to make their mom happy or whatever it may be, it's it's all in there.

And so for me, I started to realize that and you you'd feel this way, but as an actor, it's slightly different because with an actor, everyone thinks you are your roles. roles. roles. So, right, like if someone meets Chris Hemsworth, they think he's Thor and like they think they're getting a picture out, man. out, man. out, man. Yeah. They think they Yeah. They think they get a picture with Thor. If you see Robert Downey Jr., you think you're with Iron Man. Like that's that's you know, Tony Stark.

Like that's who you're in love with. You're not You don't know who Robert Downey Jr. is. Same with viz Amed whereas for you the public and private self there's an authenticity there's a coherence to it yes there is in the sense of yes I do this in real life and I do it online but I'm also a complete human being with lots of other desires and lots of other complexities so like what I try and do as much as I can which helps me more than helps anyone else is like I try not to say anything profound when I'm around people because because it's people come over for dinner party they're expecting Jay's going to be dropping some gems and I'm I literally the plainest like yeah just Man United scores.

Yeah, exactly. I would literally start talking about football because all I'm trying to do is like I don't want to play up to the caricature of what I think I've become. It's like a comedian that just thinks they have to be funny all the time. So I can feel like, oh god, I've just got everything that comes out my mouth has to be profound. And not is not only is that not realistic, it's not possible. I'm not I'm a normal person. Not everything is deep and I don't even want to be that.

And so it's this fascinating thing that I'm always dealing with. It makes you feel better, Jay. The time we've spent have you always felt to me to be very superficial. superficial. superficial. Thank you. I know that's what you want to hear. Yeah. But yeah, so I think my point is I'm always in one sense compensating for that by creating moments of breaking the image. You know, somebody said something really interesting to me that in a way inspired the whole show of Bait, right? It was this one thing was this feeling of life for all of us feels like an audition and the other thing was the distance between your public and private self is the amount of shame that you carry.

The distance between how you want to be seen or how people see you and who you are when no one's watching. That performance that we are all living in that's actually about that's a measurement of shame. And I was like, I want to do something in that spot. And for me, in that that space between those two versions of yourself, that space really started opening up for me a lot about 10 years ago when I started to become more known um in America doing some work here and doing things like Star Wars.

That is when it just felt so at odds. You know, the perception and the reality couldn't be more different. And that's something that's stressful, absurd, but also kind of funny. And so I wanted to kind of liberate myself of that shame. Hopefully invite other people to liberate themselves of of that shame as well by by actually trying to collapse that distance between the public and private self. So I'm always an actor. What if I make a show that's taking all my vulnerabilities and neurosis and and laugh about them and put them out there?

And there's so much in the show that's really directly from my upbringing. There's that skin moment. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. A version of it. I had a panic attack once when I was supporting Wuang Clan in concert at Kentishtown Forum in North London. We refilmed me having a panic attack at Kishtown Forum. I said, "I want to do the same place. I want to burst out into the same alleyway and have the same panic attack there. Even you know the British security services MI5 and MI6 rec recruiting my character.

They've tried to do that with me a few times. That's a crazy after I became more known as an actor. They reached out several times saying, "Do you want to help us with messaging? Do you want to sit down?" I was like, "No, I'm an artist. I'm not getting involved, mate. No, no, thank you." But I just tried to take all these kind of moments of confusion and contradiction and and and try and put them out there because like you said that the gap between your public and private self can feel like a straight jacket.

And I think we're all doing it. You don't have to be you or me. Like I said, we're all kind of performing it feels like these days. Yeah. And I feel the challenge is and I love that idea, the one that you shared just now, this the gap between your public and private self, how big shame is or how deep the shame you experiences. And I think that the biggest challenge becomes when you never leave the stage. And so, everyone has to perform. Everyone has to perform at work.

Everyone has to perform with family. You know, there's going to be places in your life where you have to perform. Life is that way. But if you never leave the stage and you feel like your performance on stage is who you are and is reflective of your worth, that feels like when you're really stuck because now you're saying the value I get from being on the stage is all the value I have. And especially if when you leave the stage, you're trying to be as boring as possible.

Do you know what I'm trying to say? You're trying to be as imperfect as possible. What is love? What is your safe place? What are your safe relationships? It's a place where you don't have to perform, where you get to be the messy, chaotic, neurotic, boring version of yourself. And so this weird things happen. It's like the place of love and safety is a place where and it should be like this, you know, like my cousins, they laugh about what I do. You are friends with one of my cousins, right?

And um we play football together. Exactly. Right. But what I think I love about that WhatsApp group, my cousins, is when I got nominated for an Oscar for acting, one of my cousins genuinely was like, like, like, okay, cool. Like, what is that a big deal? Is that like when I won regional employee of the month? I was about to say like, well, no, it's not like winning regional employee of the And another cousin came in and went, no, it's not like that because you actually won that award, regional employee of the month.

He didn't win. didn't win. didn't win. Oh, wow. And it's that's that's healthy. That's that's good. Do you know what I mean to have your safe place be one where those things don't matter where the performance is immaterial, but it can be lopsided, right? That's why people get addicted to being out there and getting a pat on the back. Not only are we trying to be liked or validated, it's like what bait again is set up for is trying to be something you're not. So obviously your character's trying to become the next James Bond.

And it's not really about Bond. It's this idea of I'm trying to be something I'm not. M and I think that is even more difficult than just trying to be liked because before there's one version of you trying to be liked for who you are and now you're trying to be liked for someone you'll never be and that's like an even more complicated place to be because now you're taking on traits, personality types, clothing, whatever. I mean I'm half disappointed you didn't show up in a tux today.

You know that, right? Like it's like for everyone else the subway takes you show up in a This is where I get to be boring. You're not worried. You look great. But yeah, it's like but that idea of trying to be someone we're not. I find that to be like the the golden handcuffs, the drug of society where I remember when I started when I left the monastery and I started working in the corporate world just to pay the bills and survive. I remember thinking to myself, this place is trying to make me someone that I'm not.

Yeah. and I could spend 30 years here becoming someone that I'm not. I could become partner, could make money, whatever. And that's the challenge people are having to work with because we're lucky we get to express who we are through our work and tell stories and everything. But when I think about someone who's like, J, I've got, you know, RZ, I'm that's what I've got to do every day. Like I have to be someone I'm not. Do you think that we all have an essential essence and go this is who you are?

Like I said, I grew up code switching with these very different sides to myself, wearing a school uniform at school and then shaves at home and then Reebok classics and fake Versace out with my friends. Literally changing costumes, accent and personality. It was a form of acting. Now I try and bring all of that together making things like bait or my version of Hamlet or whatever where we bring these different things together in one place. Do we have an essential center? Isn't it just about our circumstances and our environment?

This is when I'm asking you to say something profound. Jen, I need you to help me out with this. What's your take on this? Do you think we have like, okay, this is you at your core and that's you at your core? I believe that life is more about a collection and connection of ideas and stories and narratives that you've built as opposed to a center that was always the case. And right, it can sound easy to say it, but actually it's really hard. Like I always say to people, I'm as much in love with monk wisdom as I am with building a media empire as I am with being a loving partner as I am with a good friend.

Like I'm like in love with all of those parts of myself. And I'm like trying to become okay with all of those things, those things that are seen as contradictions, correct, and paradoxical and they feel like they don't mesh. But I'm like if everyone sat down and asked themselves who they were. I think we all have paradoxes within that. that. that. We've been taught to say I'm an accountant. I'm married. I'm Hindu. I'm whatever it is. Like we've been taught to have very simple labels which are very, you know, incomplete.

Yeah. And I guess it's like less about finding yourself means being in one lane. Yeah. I don't believe in that. I think that having all these different sides to who we are is is human and universal and healthy in a way. Over the last 10 years or so, I kind of really went on this journey of journey of journey of trying to make work from a more personal place. When I came into this game, I felt like for some reason I had to justify it beyond just myself enjoying it.

Now I'm like actually my joy is valid. You know, joy and if other people take joy from my work, that's valid as well. But I always felt like it's got to be a have a greater purpose, right? And for me that was about trying to stretch culture. This idea of one person at a time, one film screening, one performance at a time, opening people's hearts and minds to an experience that they didn't think they could relate to, but actually, wow, I recognize myself in it. It's like I was a big fan of watching The Crown.

Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And you know, when you're watching The Crown, you're suddenly like, I'm the Queen of England. That's me. I'm her. I totally get, you know, how it's this amazing body swap that story can achieve, right? And so to try and open people's hearts and minds to realizing that we're all the same. We're all one. And and to stretch culture in that way. And before I used to think, okay, that means me popping up in all these roles that are as different as possible to me, change people's ideas about who can play that role, that role, that role, who can be in a Star Wars movie, and all this kind of stuff.

And now more and more I think like I want to share the messy contradiction of myself. of myself. of myself. I used to think acting was about putting on the mask. Now I think it's about taking it off. It's actually about sharing the most personal personal personal thing possible thing possible thing possible and that ends up being the most universal thing. You know, it's something actually I've never really talked about publicly before, Jay, but I did this film called Mogul Mowgli, and it's about a guy who an artist who suddenly loses his ability to walk, becomes tremendously ill overnight, and is never sure if he's going to get his life back.

It was an exploration of lots of themes that I was interested in creatively, but what people don't know is that that that basically really happened to me. It was 2015 and I just started filming Star Wars. I'd never done a studio movie before, never done a big franchise. I never thought it would that would be my path. I was really happy doing indies like Nightcrawler and Four Lions and I suddenly got to be in this film set with Stormtroopers and all these big things. I was like, "Wow, is this is it going to happen for me?" One week into filming that, I that, I that, I started getting this weird pain in my legs and I thought, "Okay, maybe I've pulled something during one of the action scenes." And I woke up one morning and I couldn't get out of bed and I couldn't walk.

Tried to go to a hospital. They were like, they just kind of like palm me off. They didn't weren't really sure what it was. I went to the hospital back in my parents' neighborhood, the same hospital I was born in when I was visiting. My parents said, "Let me go and check get checked out there." They immediately saw what was happening and they were like, "You need to be admitted to hospital straight away." And I remember saying, "I can't do that. I'm feeling Star Wars right now." And they said, "You're in a very dangerous situation right now." And I'll explain to you what's happening, but you need to be hospitalized immediately.

And I just felt like, what's happening to me? Is my life kind of falling apart before my eyes? I ended up spending 2 and 1/2 months in hospital. I was unable to walk. to walk. to walk. I went down to just under 50 kilos. Wow. Wow. Wow. Uh 100 pounds, you know. I couldn't lift my arms. I couldn't walk. Uh and yeah, was kind of going to a stroke gym every day. A weird thing happens when your life falls apart like that. When you're confronted with your complete lack of control, control, control, it's really humbling.

We realize if I don't even control my own body, own body, own body, then maybe everything that I do have is a gift. a gift. a gift. And I remember being in hospital, forget going back to film the rest of Star Wars. Forget having a career, ever being able to walk again. I remember be sat there and seeing like a pigeon sat on the window sill of this NHS hospital and being almost moved to tears with by its beauty. It sounds maybe sounds crazy, but maybe you can relate to what I'm saying where you're just like, man, I did nothing to deserve that pigeon coming to visit me.

I get to see up close. Pigeons are actually amazing. They're like a little bit green and red and you're getting seeing the sunlight shine off of me. this thing that I had taken for granted. I was just absolutely blown away by this animal, this wild animal that was there. And I felt this sense of such humility and and gratitude. And I've always believed ever since then, it's when you're brought to your knees that you're halfway towards praying. It brings you closer to the love in the universe.

And I went on a real journey and that's when I kind of really started meditating in earnest. I had this kind of crazy crazy journey where where where I had to kind of almost grieve and let go of my life the way I thought it would be. be. be. And uh it was it was almost like I felt like God or the universe was saying you all this stuff that you want it's like happening for you now right make sure you appreciate it. Don't take it for granted.

You know, it was I was being taught gratitude just before being given the gift. My friends are texting me like, "Bro, I've just seen the Star Wars photos, man. Like, you're going to be in Star Wars." Yeah. I'm in a hospital desperately trying to get the nurs's attention cuz I can't get out to go to the toilet and I don't want to wet the bed. My life is just it couldn't be more different to what people are perceiving it to be. It was something about that experience made me want to start telling work from a personal place.

And the reason for that is that I felt a lot of shame around it. I felt a deep sense of shame. You know, I've never really talked about it publicly even now, but for anyone else going through that right now, I wanted wanted to kind of share that and offer that as a as an experience because experience because experience because I I felt this kind of weird shame and I felt this critical inner voice coming out that was like, you deserve this. This is what you should be.

You thought you belong up here. No, you're getting straight back down. This this is this is your fate. How dare you think you could be happy? You have the things you want. And all this shame and all this kind of like this really venomous voice was coming out. And I was like, actually, this is the thing that's killing me. The only way to heal myself of that voice is by owning it. Is owning my experience. Losing my the shame around my experience. losing my shame around who I am.

That's what Mogul Mowgli is about. That's what bait is about because I I believe, you know, what what happened to me was a kind of autoimmune condition, right? And autoimmune condition is when the body attacks itself. And I know we're both big fans of that book, The Body Keeps the Score. You know, it was my belief that I was at war with myself, that my critical inner voice was so out of control, that I was always attacking myself, beating myself over the stick so much that in a way my body had turned on itself.

I mean, I told this story jokingly before um about what I'm about to tell you, which is 2 years after I'd finished filming the night of I'd still get up in the middle of the night, go to the bathroom and start running scenes again. This is the show has come out. I wanted Emmy for this role. It's done. Like, I should have moved on with life, but still in the back of my head, it's like not good enough. You're not good enough. That's embarrassing. How you think that was good?

Get back up there. Do it again. Wow. So I had this voice in me and my it is my belief that that critical inner voice led me to that hospital bed and I had to look it in the eye and say no more shame man no more shame I'm going to own this I'm going to create work from this and that's what sound of metal was that's where Mogul Mogi was coming from that direct experience and the universe brought me Sound of Metal which was also about an artist going through a health crisis and it was like no no you're not done with it you got to go back there you got to make work from this place.

Yeah, man. I I have long deep history with this critical voice and this shame and I really think it can kill you, man. It's not something that I'm done with. Um but I think that critical inner voice just he's not the guy on the megaphone. He's a guy who's always going to be at the party. He's if I'm lucky, he's at the corner of the party. As hard as it may be, talk to me about the lowest moment, the worst day of going through that time in hospital because those are the moments that we all have experience rock bottom, but those are the moments you never hear people talk about because they're scary.

they're scary. they're scary. Yeah. And and I feel like when I'm hearing you talk about that, I'm like, sounds like you were dealing with a lot. for something mental to become physically physically physically that debilitating when you're a fit young man, healthy man in general, like that means there was there was a real war within yourself as you rightly said it. it. it. Talk to me as much as you can about that. I was alone at night in the hospital hospital hospital and um they were pumping me full of a lot of steroids introvenously and steroids keep you up, right?

and I couldn't sleep and I just felt completely alone. Whatever was going on with me, it was resistant to treatment. So, I got a tiny bit better and then it went it was going south and it started sensing that maybe there was some it might be affecting my heart and it might be affecting my ability to breathe and it was certainly was affecting my ability to swallow. I remember this because the people on set at Star Wars, God bless them, they carried on sending me food to the hospital hospital hospital and I was having trouble swallowing it.

And um I was like, am I going to make my way out of this? Am I going to die here? Is what I started asking myself. And I started talking to God. And I remember that rock bottom moment again. Like I said, when you're brought to your knees, that's when you're halfway to praying. It was that moment of total helplessness that I started talking to God and I said, "If you please give me a chance, if you please let me live, I promise you as much as I can, I I I will give.

I want to give." And what I meant by that was, and I said like, I I just feel I haven't emptied myself yet, you know? I've got more to give. And I remember just pleading with God and just the tears just streaming down my face and just saying, "Yeah, if you if you if you just let me live, if you let me get through this, I I promise you I will I will empty myself and try and give from whatever you've given me." And um it was incredibly scary.

And uh the next morning I remember they said they said that they might have to start a really intensive kind of chemo on me. God, man. I mean that's like it's a harrowing time like in your life. Like that's like just when I when I hear about cuz I I not not it wasn't life-threatening but my version of the mental turning into physical was I developed while I was a monk I developed polyp in my throat. And so these get on your vocal cords and people generally get it from like vocal exhaustion or lack of vocal rest or some sort of vocal disruption.

And I think for us in the monastery it was mantra, it was chanting, it was, you know, and and I do not have a singing voice for whatever it's worth. But I think my my vocal range is pretty limited. And I was probably straining it. I don't even know how it happened. And that's that's the physical version. But we all know there's well from what we're talking about there's so much more to it. whether it's a lack of expression, a l lack of authentic communication of where you're at.

And I remember having to get them lasered off my throat. And so I went into surgery, got them lasered off. It's it's it's pretty like, you know, you don't feel it. You're sedated. It's not like I said, it's not life-threatening, but like for months after you're drinking from a straw cuz you can't eat proper food and you can't talk. So I have a whiteboard. And I remember moving in back in with my parents at the time because I couldn't be in the monastery. And I'd literally write to my mom like what I could eat, water, whatever it was.

And I'm literally carrying a whiteboard around my neck basically and just writing stuff to my family cuz I can't say anything. And at that time I'm like I give speeches at um colleges. I give talks at the temple. I'm I'm I'm like speaking is my thing. And like that's what I do, of course, of course, of course, and it's all gone and it's disappeared and like I can't even say anything like I'm I'm I'm writing words on a whiteboard. And I remember feeling very similarly to what you're saying about seeing that pigeon praying to God like I I can I can relate to it.

Again, like mine was not life-threatening. It wasn't, you know, there's a difference between not speaking and not walking. No, but it's profound because it's your your gift turns to your curse. And it's like the thing that you are blessed with, which is this ability to communicate and this desire, this purpose you have, that is the thing that's taken from you. Correct. Correct. Correct. And so, how has that affected the way that you I mean, did that just make you even more motivated to speak and to choose your words and think about your words?

Yeah. I had to go to a vocal coach to train and all of that kind of stuff. And they said that you would get your, you know, your natural voice would come back. It came back softer. I'd lost the raspiness and the depth of my voice. I sounded different. Now I now I sound back to normal. If anything, maybe it's a bit better now. So, I' got to take it. But like at the time, it was like I was like, "God, I'm going to have to learn how to talk again." Like that's how it felt.

felt. felt. And what it did for me was a few things. I remember talking to one spiritual guide at the time. And I said to him, I said, "I can't speak to God out loud anymore. Like, I can't hear myself talk to God. I can't chant. I can't. Mantra is such a big part of Eastern tradition. I can't I can't chant out loud. And you're meant to chant out loud so you can hear the spiritual sacred sound. Like that's our practice. And he goes to me, he goes, "God's teaching you to chant with your heart." Like and I was like, "God, like that that at that time I just remember that like hitting me.

It was like he was like, "Yeah, you think well you think you talk to God out loud? Like you think that's what God listens to?" He was like, "God's listening to this. Like God knows what's going on in here. It's got nothing to do with sound and voice. And I was like, wow, that's that's huge to learn to talk to God with my heart. Like, what does that even mean? Yes. And then at the same time it's what you said where it was like okay now that my voice is starting to come back how am I going to respect the fact that I have a voice like and you know to not take it for granted to be like how can you feel that this ease with which we're talking right now and we're communicating and I can hear you you can hear me when that goes away God life feels colorless and you know it loses so much value and so again and you know we were talking about this offline as well like when You of course you forget all this.

You start taking all the gifts for granted again. You probably have to in a way to try and kind of move through the trauma, but I don't know if you have moments where you remember that and you just sink into that deep sense of humility and gratitude. And humility is the word. I mean, you're taking me back there actually. I don't think I've actually thought about this. I don't even I don't think I've talked about it publicly to be honest myself. I I don't I can't remember if I've actually talked about it it it and I'm being reminded of your exper like your your experience triggering me going, going, going, "Yeah, like that." You know, that was intense.

That was intense. And and I was traumatic. It was traumatic. But all of that to say with all of yours, talk to me about where does the shame come from going through something like that and then not wanting to share it because I think there's the pain of going through something traumatic and there's then there's the pain of communicating it to a group of people who may or may not actually understand what the hell you just went through. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But talk to me about where was the shame for you in wanting to share that and what kept it in for so long.

I I will, but can I first tell you something about your voice? your voice? your voice? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I love your voice. Uh but here's the thing. When I sometimes I'm walking down the street, this has happened to me a lot, but it's happened to me enough times I want to mention it. Sometimes people stop me and they say, say I'm on the phone or whatever, they've heard me talking, they go, "Sorry, can I just tell you, you sound exactly like J Shetty." Shetty." Shetty." That is hilarious.

I'll take that as a compliment. compliment. compliment. I take it as a compliment, bro. You'd make an amazing MC. I think you got a great voice for that great you got a great voice for that mixtapes in the past. There you go. Come on, man. So, I just want to going to give your voice is flowers. Um, yeah. The shame, you know, I think that the show is about this idea of wanting to be James Bond. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. I wanted that. I mean, who who doesn't?

Or if not exactly that, a version of that. Now, what I mean by that is like you want to aspire to this archetype of of heroism. Mhm. And that is about being this kind of invulnerable, powerful alpha male, whatever that means. Although hilariously, I mean, the alpha male in a wolfpack is the animal that lets the kids beat it up the most, you know, and is like the most chill and the least aggressive, right? But we have these ideas in our culture and I guess I didn't want to I already felt like I don't fit the mold, you know, for all the reasons we've already discussed that we experienced growing up.

I don't want another strike against me of people somehow thinking I'm weak, I'm weak, I'm weak, you know, or I'm fragile or I whereas now I look at it as like well actually I feel like I showed a lot of resources and strength and grit, mental and physical, you know, teaching yourself to walk again or lift your arms or whatever. that that takes strength. And I can say that now the time I just saw the glass half empty of it and I thought I don't even want anyone to think that I'm weak, that I'm broken, that I'm not up to up to the mark.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And in a way, I actually think that there's some truth in that that I think the culture has shifted a little bit more. more. more. Mhm. You know, I think we do because of spaces like this, man, that you've created and other people have created where we can talk and celebrate our vulnerabilities a bit more, you know? I mean, I mean, it's talking about this right now. My body right now is kind of like going, "Oh god, yeah, did I just say all this?

Did I do all this?" But I also feel a bit lighter. It's that thing of digging inside. Like I said, it's an offering. You know, if there's someone going through something like this that's watching this, if it normalizes their experience, if it makes them feel less alone, then that's beautiful, you know, and I want to share that. I I think it was that really. I think it was kind of my again, it was the distance between that public and private self. And I felt that if my public self gets too close to my reality Mhm.

Mhm. Mhm. it'll fall apart again. Yeah. Well said. Yeah. No, I I really believe you sharing that especially talking about perception in that externally everyone could be like you're winning, your career's been amazing, you won Emmys like Oscar nom you know all this stuff and it's like to actually go oh wait a minute even him like there's there's stuff he's going through not only is affecting him mentally, physically and that mental physical connection that I want people to make here which I know you do too which is this idea that a lot of what we're going through physically is coming from some sort of emotional block, mental block.

And in bait, you visualize that as this severed pig's head, which which is this Patrick Stewart voice, severed pig's head. So yes, the critical inner voice in bait is a severed pig's head. It was sent to the family as a racist attack. And it's about, I guess, how we can internalize the criticism of us, internalize the prejudice. So it starts to become almost like his best friend. Like and for me for a long time my critical inner voice was something I didn't want to lose. I was worried that if I if I if I make peace with it or turn the volume down on that too much I'll get lazy.

I'll get complacent. I remember even when when we won an Oscar for our short film. film. film. It's so funny. It was almost like the Oscar was looking at me going you ain't [ __ ] The kind of elation lasted as long as me going there, collecting it, going backstage, going to the toilet, coming back and sitting down again. By the time I sat down, in fact, I would say my critical inner voice was at an alltime high when I was sat there holding that screw in my hand cuz it was almost like a survival mechanism.

My brain was going, that voice, that part of my brain was going, was going, was going, "Don't put your feet up now. Don't think you can get complacent. Don't kick back. I have programmed you to strive, not to savor. savor. savor. And so you now going to really crack the whip. whip. whip. And it's just it was just going crazy. I remember sitting there in that seat having the most aggressively critical thoughts to myself. It was like out of control. control. control. But in a show is played by Seed Pigs head.

I want you to know there was a moment long moment where I was like it has to be J Shay. We ended up getting Sir Patrick Stewart. So you lost the role to someone who's I thought it has to be a really kind of super established actor, one of the greats. So it makes Shaw, my character, feel insecure. feel insecure. feel insecure. Actually, what if you were my evil twin? I mean, there's not this slight resemblance maybe. resemblance maybe. resemblance maybe. I was like, yeah, what if it should be Jay?

Jay should be my critical inner voice. voice. voice. That would be hilarious. That would have been so funny. I know. So, Patrick Stewart was was the right choice. It was one of those moments in the in the show where you're like, "What?" Like, it's such a surprise. Right. Right. Yeah. Talk to me about that because I think what you just identified is the high performers and overachievers curse where the inner critic is what drives you to extraordinary success. Do you think? Usually. Right. Usually from everyone I've interviewed, whether it's basketball players, whether it's tennis players, whether it's F1 drivers, they all say the same thing.

Basically, the athletes who I think are playing at the levels where every inch counts and every minute matters, they all have this crazy inner critic, which they have to learn what to do with it because in the moment they have to believe that this point is the only thing that matters. And then as soon as they win or lose the point, they have to believe that point doesn't matter at all. Wow. Wow. Wow. Because that's the switch that so that their code switch or that and is that it's like when I'm playing this point, this is the most important point in the world and as soon as the point's over, whether I win or lost the point, that point's irrelevant.

So you need the inner critic and the inner cheerleader. Totally. You've got and you've got to basically be able to toggle between them both. Yeah. It's I don't want to believe that it the inner critic is the jet fuel. I want to believe that it's like one of the engines, right? But there's got to be that other engine because you know I also feel that yes I feel like the inner critic or that fear of failure the possibility of shame all these things can drive us but I think it can also make us quite tense tense tense and I think our best performances come when we're in a state of flow and that is about like you saying too tight too loose that is also about being kind of loose that's about a joy it's about openness and receptivity and play and curiosity.

Yeah. curiosity. Yeah. curiosity. Yeah. All those things that the critic does not really give us. And so, yeah, for me, it's like on that mixing desk of the voices in my head. You don't want to hear the voices in my head, Jay. There's a lot of them. You're one of them. But I'm trying to just find that right balance and find the right moment to bring up that cheerleader versus the critic. I'm glad you said that because I I would agree with you and I would encourage people to go there, especially if you're a high achiever, high performer, or even if you you have goals and you think the only way to get there is to make yourself feel bad and beat yourself up and to actually go, well, that isn't the way I want to get there.

There is a way of getting there that isn't that that just seems to be the most common way that a lot of successful people have got there, but then they didn't like where they got either. I think it can get you to a place, but then it will kill you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, people would whip horses to like make them run faster. You're gonna kill that horse at some point, man. You're going to really get exhausted. Yeah, that's a great visual. I'm trying to find a way of something else kind of taking over.

And honestly, I kind of feel like what you were talking about before with kids, that's been a great teacher for me, you know, play. just on a really basic level. level. level. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Play the joy of that, the curiosity of it actually not being in control. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. That's been a a great teacher for me. Not least because actually I think kids I mean you can't control them really. I mean they humble you every day, right? They they they totally kind of you know there's that thing where you don't raise your kids, they raise you.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. I I think that that's kind of something I'm trying to pass the baton from the critic to the to the cheerleader or to the child. Yeah. To the child. I like that. Yeah. There's this there's this beautiful quote from George Bernard Shaw that I love where he said, "We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing." playing." playing." And I love that. Like it just it's so good cuz I'm like yeah like that's why we feel old is because we stop playing.

We stop being curious. We stop marveling at the greatness of a Velcro shoe. that simplicity. And that's why time I was I was looking into it actually because that's why as we get older, I'm sure you feel this way too. Time just flies. Every adult I talk to, they're like, "Yeah, god, time's just going faster." Apparently, that is a proven fact that our brains subjectively experience time differently as we get older. Yes. So in terms of subjectively the spread of our life um and how it feels to our brains is 50% of our life is lived between the age of 0 and 8 years old which is crazy.

That's like half of it cuz of how a day feels when you're a little kid. How expansive and huge it can feel and how quick a year can feel towards the tail end. So yeah, as you're starting to feel more and more conscious of time and its passage, like what is that doing for you? Is that just mean streamlining and focusing on the things you really want to or how are you managing with that? At one point in my life, I listened to Steve Jobs's Stanford commencement speech every day for 9 months.

Wow. Wow. Wow. In my opinion, it's the best speech ever given because he also knew he was going to die. So I feel like when someone knows they're going to die, it's that death awareness meditation, right? It's a big part of the kind of monastic tradition and eastern philosophy. philosophy. philosophy. Yeah, absolutely. And it's like every word mattered like he didn't that wasn't performance. If you if you see him do it, he also just reads it like dead pan. Like there's no performance. There's no emphasis.

There's no poet. Like he's not trying. It's just truth. Yeah. Cuz he knows he's going to die. So, it's like there's a So, I listen to that and there's a line in it that just goes like something like and I'll butcher it and people should listen to the real thing, but he he literally says something like every few days if I I check in with myself and I ask myself, I look in the mirror like am I doing what I want to do, if this was my last day, and if after 3 or 4 days the answer isn't this is what I should be doing, then I know I've got something to change.

And I'm like, I don't think we can all live like that all the time. I think I think there's you know people have responsibilities and pressures and whatever but I think there's truth to the idea of did you call the person that you would call if it was your last day. Did you talk to your partner in the way you would if it was the last time you were going to talk to them? Did you look at your kid before you went out to work in a way that you would want them to know was how much you loved them.

Like I think all those things do matter. That applies even if you've got to go to a job every day and you've got to say hello to people. It's like did you behave with everyone in the way that you want to be remembered? I think that is important to me and I think it's streamlining. I think it's focusing. I think it's all those things, but really it's more about it's less about what I do and it's more about who I am in in that what is the spirit of my being.

I've noticed versions of that where like in order to become successful, I've had to be more technical. I've had to be more strategic. I've had to be more organized. I've had to be what whatever the words are. And then I go I'm just a guy who loves the heart. Like I'm that's who I am at the core of like I'm just a guy who just wants to like love and be loved. Like that's who I am at my essence. essence. essence. And who are the people who can take me back to that in this crazy world where I have to be all these other versions of myself in order to do the thing.

Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. People always say like what's your favorite place? And I'm like I'm never looking for my favorite place. I'm looking for my favorite people because as long as I'm with my favorite people it doesn't matter where I am. And so I'm looking for people actively always always always that keep taking me back to that place within my heart and can do it quicker, more beautifully, more gracefully, more elegantly. And I find I'm some of them are old friends that I've had for 20, 25 years.

And some of them are new people that I just met last year. People who can make you more yourself. Yeah. Yeah. People who can make you forget yourself. forget yourself. forget yourself. Yeah. People who go beyond that performance of the avatar. like the the person who's not getting you to play up to your avatar or your you know what and so I'm looking I'm always looking to not collectors and there's I don't need a million of those people but you got to find a few people that you just drop in your nervous system calms down you know the active mind switches on so important so important interesting you say that because like you know we're in LA right now and I had a very kind of like you're making me think about this because I I had this narrative where I was like I don't like LA and you're actually making me think about this is Like there are periods of time when I've adored LA and the thing that was surprising me now is just before coming here I was like I got to go to LA man being from London like like walking and you know like driving and everything spread out and I was like you don't see any and all these kind of cliched criticisms right and yet I woke up today in LA absolutely loving it cuz I'm with my wife with my kid I'm with family you know family has come to visit it the house is full and it's suddenly like being back as a kid surrounded by clapping aunties or whatever.

You know what I mean? It was just it just feels like that environment. Um it feels like home. Absolutely. It's the people, man. It's the people that made the place 100%. And and yeah, I was kind of confronted with that realization this morning. I was like, "Oh yeah, I've just slipped into this kind of lazy narrative. It's like it's not what it's about." Yeah. And and and the time piece too that you brought up that I think is a really valuable thing. It's like how much can I not try and fill time and how much can I not try and be distracted.

I find it hard like kind of doing nothing. nothing. nothing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Something that is starting to help is reading. reading. reading. I'm very poorly read. No, I don't believe that really. Yeah. I kind of like through your work. I would like I pick up a lot of things in like um I listen to a lot of music. I listen to podcasts. I watch talks. I go to talks. I talked to people. Um, but I had like growing up crazy ADHD and I would get into a lot of trouble at school.

Now I look back I'm like, "Oh, of course that's what that was." And you know, there's loads of different ways in which that manifest. So sitting down to read a book was like torture. It was historically again the narrative. Oh, I don't read. I can't read. Recently, particularly being married to a novelist that was like this is a bit of a deal breaker. You need to be reading book. you at least read my book. It's like, okay, I got to sit down and do this. do this.

do this. That is the thing that is allowing me to like sit and kind of do nothing. It's forgetting myself. forgetting myself. forgetting myself. You know what I mean? But I otherwise struggle with it. I can very easily fill time, create a new idea. Now, let's progress it. What if we do that? What if we And I'm sure I don't know. How do you manage that? Is that something that you also navigate? also navigate? also navigate? I had to set rules around it because I'm like that as well.

I feel like I'm a creative brain. I like I like building stuff. for like playing with stuff, but I had to start just building real parameters around that where And what do you mean like as in you don't work after 6 p.m. like Yeah. It's like I won't think about work or be on my phone after 6 p.m. Because to me that rest and renewal is where the best ideas come out. Talking about flow state, I can't invent flow. I can't engineer it. I can't manufacture it.

And so for it to exist, I need to be in this lucid state where said something that randomly allowed for me to be inspired at 8:00 p.m. and it came up. And that's fine, but I don't need to act on it immediately. I just need to let it breathe and let it sit. Letting it sit. Best ideas come on the toilet. See, bro, the shower. Actually, we started taking our phones to the toilets. The toilets now not the creative mecca it used to be, but the shower, man.

Shower is always where you go. Yeah. And actually, just to give LA's flowers, driving has been great for me. I agree in that sense when you're just going on these long drives and you allow the thing to bubble up. David Lynch talk about the fish, right? These fish that would just swim to the surface sometimes if you could just allow the water to be still enough. RZ, I want to do a set of questions for you that we've got that speak about everything we've been talking about, but we're going to do them as not rapid fire, but we're going to do them as quicker fire.

Yeah. Quicker. Yeah. Not rambly fire. I don't want No, no, no. You can give longer answers, but I I want to kind of get some out from you. So, what's the hardest mask you've had to take off? I think it was probably around my health. Yeah. You know, kind of letting people into that even it was happening. I was trying to keep people at a distance. I didn't want people to see me like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Particularly if I thought I was like, if I might die, then I don't want people to remember me like this almost, you know?

So, I I think it was that. I think it was when I was at my most vulnerable, letting people in on what was happening and starting to slowly share that. What part of you still feels like it doesn't belong? Different parts of me in every place that I go to. That's interesting. Yeah. And I think a lot of people feel like that. A lot of creative people feel like that. I've learned to embrace that actually. I actually feel like having that slight outsiders perspective is I think be kind of fun.

It allows me to like enjoy things at a distance as well. But yeah, I mean all the time. I mean, ah, you know, I remember going to meet the queen and accidentally trying to fist bump her. That's so good. It was like a British film industry reception. Everyone lines up. She put her hand out like this. From the angle that I was at, I thought she was going like this. I went like this. The security went like this and ended up just going like this, you know?

It was super weird. Yeah. Her her ring. So, um I don't know, man. Like there's there's all these kind of moments of feeling like a fish out of water that now I actually kind of like I quite enjoy being like where am I? What is this? You know it's something you can laugh about later. Yeah. It's a better story too. I think so. Yeah. If you felt totally comfortable everywhere you went, then you're probably not in the right place. David Bowie says this thing of is when you can't feel the bottom of the swimming pool is you know you're in the right place.

You know you're slightly out of your depth working it out. That's beautiful. I love that. That's that's one of the reasons why I've I actually like living in LA because I'm reminded of my insignificance daily because it's so big and I go to an event and I'm the least important person in the room and I love it because it because it because the only conversation I'll have is a really meaningful one because the only person who's aware of me is someone who's connected to the kind of work I do and then that allows me to bask in the glory of the rarity of that human and the interaction we just had.

So I try to belong to one person than belong to a room or a place or a space because belonging to one person is kind of all we're looking for anyway. It's like when you meet one person and you go, "Oh god, we even like you know we're from the same area like you know we know the same people like that to me in a busy big room is like pure joy that I know even the person winning an award on stage as you've rightly just said isn't even feeling." Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And so it's not being celebrated that make gives us joy. It's not belonging to a whole room that gives us joy. It's just one person that looks at you and you go, "We're from the same place. We believe in the same things. We care about whatever whatever that may be." Or I had a really good debate with someone that engaged me in a really curious way and we don't agree. It can be so overwhelming in those rooms, can't it? Where like you're chatting to people and you feel that everyone's like looking over your shoulders to see if there's someone else to talk to and it's like pinball.

It's like social pinball. But finding a center in those rooms, finding a kind of a rooted place to drop into. Yeah, that's the way to do it. Yeah. I always I always say to God, I'm like, I just want to meet the one person you want me to meet today. And and that's how I walk into a room. I love it. And I always meet that person and it's always like becomes a friendship or we had a great conversation and we don't talk ever again or and it's just like, yeah, God, like I'm here for you, so you just introduce me to the one person you want to introduce me to.

And it Yeah, that that kind of carries me. So this one's a good one. So, uh, when was the last time you tried to people, please? This is going to sound like a small thing, thing, thing, but clothes matter to me a lot. Me too, man. I grew up near Wembley Market where they sold all the fake designer clothes. Yeah. So, it was all about that. We'd go and buy some and we'd sell them and then we go, you know, and try and buy some real ones.

And I don't know, we were just kind of obsessed with it, you know, as teenagers trying to wear the mask or having the costume or find worth, whatever it is. Now I see it more as a kind of expression of myself. Recently I was going to do a talk show or something and I said I shouldn't wear that outfit. That's too me in a weird way. Wow. Wow. Wow. I was like that's I need to meet the audience where they're at. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe they haven't seen a show like this or have related to someone like me from my background.

I'm doing something maybe target like you know it's middle America or something. And I and I was I tried to dilute down what I would wear and who I would be. would be. would be. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And luckily when I was wearing a thing, I was like, "Who the hell is this? What am I what am I doing?" And I took it off. But I remember and and I remember actually in that moment being quite surprised. Oh, that's still that's just still a really strong instinct in me.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To do that, to edit and censor myself in that way. It sounds like a small thing, but do you think though you only get away with being able to make that choice when you're successful? I think chicken and egg. I think the people who become the most successful are the people who are most unapologetically themselves. I love that. What a great answer. Yeah, because the specificity and the honesty and the authenticity is what people are attracted to. Just feels real, you know. That's the narrative again we tell ourselves.

Oh, when I'm when I'm successful, then I'll be myself. When people accept me, I'll be me. Or if you be you, then people will accept you. Yeah. Yeah. So well said, man. So well said. I feel like before we go to the final five, which is our uh rapid fire, I feel like we have to give a bunch of shout outs to places in North and Northwest London that we grew up around because we got to go niche. We were talking about this before. We were like, we could have done a whole interview about Northwest London and no one else would have got us apart from our hometown, which we love.

So, this is for the 15 people that know exactly what we're talking about. I'm going to start with what I said to you earlier. Kebabish. Kebabish. Kebabish is on road. on road. on road. Yeah. Gabbish is literally a place that I shout out on my last rap song. Do you know what? When I said that to you earlier, I didn't even know that. I just did a track called We Good with Cassie's. It's on the bait soundtrack. Actually, Actually, Actually, I name check Kabish specifically. And the amount of people from my past who reached out and texted me like, "Bro, kebabish.

You remember those days when we used to go kebabish?" The garlic mayo. My mouth is watering as I'm talking. It's actually the naan. It's the freshness of the naan. Sha kebabish eating road. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah, that's a good one. What about were you St. Ans or St. George's? These are two shopping malls in Harrow in Northwest London, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whichever one the girl I was dating wanted to go to. It was like I was I was flexible. Yeah. I was like whichever. All right.

So, that's a good one. Yeah, that's a great one. I was actually saying again to shout out this area in London. So, northwest London, we have all the best Jay's. We have J Sean, J Paul, and J Shetty. And that's the holy trinity, man. It's the holy brown trinity. That's hilarious. Um, and then we have Risen De Patel. Yes, we're also there holding Nap for Rainers Lane, Sbury Town. So, um, but it's interesting. It's this kind of little pocket corner of the world that's there super multicultural, you know, because of that.

I think it's like a real creative hot bed and you get some interesting stuff happening there. Yeah. Anthony Joshua from Watford. AJ. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Sitting down with you is like it is sitting down with an old friend. like it feels that way because the schools you went to, the people you grew up around, friends and family. But RZ, you've been amazing to talk to today. Honestly, this is an absolute honor to have been beyond my expectations to get your openness, your honesty, your vulnerability.

The the show Bait is a winner already. Can't wait for more people to watch it. I can't wait for you. I mean, I know you got Digger coming out this year. You've got, you know, Hamlet that's out already. Like it's I feel like, you know, just keeps becoming more and more your year for actually putting out real expression. expression. expression. Thank you, brother. Truth. I'm trying to receive it. There we go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate you. But RZ, we end every interview with the final five.

These questions have to be answered in one sentence maximum. sentence maximum. sentence maximum. Oh god. Here we go. So RZ, these are your final five brought to you by State Farm. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? Idris Ela once said to me, "Categorize yourself not." Explain. I'd hit a glass ceiling in my career in the UK. He was like, "You should go to America." I'm like, "Bro, what are they going to do with a guy like me over there?

You're going to do nothing. I'm this. They don't have that. They have that. I'm not this." And he went categorize yourself, not my friend. And actually, when you do that, you're doing other people's work for them. It's about the limitations people place on you, how we internalize them and then we perpetuate that narrative and go when I'm this, this is my lane, I'm this flavor. There's so many different sides to who you are. I told him that recently and he was like I was like, "Bro, do you remember that conversation?" He was like, "Nah, no memory of that." I was like, "Great.

Thanks a lot, bro." Um, but it's those throwaway moments, right, when people kind of like see you differently to how you used to be seen. Did you feel that? Like, was that hard? I know the representation conversations overplayed. I know those conversations have happened of just like, you know, making it as a brown man in Hollywood. You've you've done that. But what is the reality of that? Because we say that and then you're like, well, wait a minute. Actually, no, I haven't done that. Cuz I think that there's a reality that for women, for people of color, for people who are differently aabled, there is a lot more resistance.

I definitely do feel like sometimes I have to work, you know, twice as hard to get half as far. But I'm also kind of starting to feel like that is gives my journey more meaning meaning meaning to me. But I know for a fact also for many others, you know, and that actually I think more and more friction is what gives life its meaning. You know, you order a meal or deliver, it does not taste the same as you've taken that time to cook that for yourself.

Shout out Deliveroo. I'm not saying that I don't do that, but I'm just kind of like I I just feel like it's what's given my journey its its meaning for for me and I know for others. So, I wouldn't I wouldn't change it. I think for a long time I'd say I wish I could swap that out. Wish I could make that different, but I don't feel that way anymore. What advice would you give to someone who is a person of color, differently aabled, who is a woman, a gender that may have any of these experiences?

What would you say to them? Because I think the bitterness, the pain, the rejection real is real. It's real. It's justified. It's not imagined. I don't want to gaslight anyone who's going through that. It's hard. I would say, you know, my experience, it's like the gift and the curse are usually the same thing. You losing your voice has made you so conscious of what you're communicating and how and the words you're choosing. There's so many examples I can think of in my own journey where the thing that I thought was blocking me if I just leaned into it, it could unlock something.

And I would say to all of those people, the thing about you that's different is an obstacle in certain ways, but it's also the key. And I would say lean into the specificity of your experience of who you are. You know, I went to Oxford University and felt very out of place there on many different levels. And my experience there taught me something which is that actually cuz I was thinking about quitting after the first month. I was like, "What the hell am I doing here?" kind of had a mental health kind of breakdown almost over there and felt super depressed, super kind of like an alien.

But I kind of feel like now the place where you stick out if you can, if you can find a support, if it doesn't hurt you, the place that you stick out is a place where you should kind of stick it out. you have an opportunity of changing the temperature in that room, of bringing other people into that room. I love that, man. Yeah. It reminds me of the Stoic statement of the obstacle is the way. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. The idea of like the obstacle is the way.

There there is no other way. And so that obstacle, whether it's how you're set up or your background or your uniqueness or uniqueness or uniqueness or All right, question number two. What is the worst advice you've ever heard or received? received? received? Was one of the first casting directors I ever met said, um, hey, nice to meet you, Re. Um, just be careful about your eyes. You can look like a bit of a psychopath sometimes because I do this. I get excited and I start going like this.

I just I want to watch this interview back going, "I did it there. I did it there." I sometimes say to my wife, I go, "Am I doing the crazy eyes?" She goes, "Stop think about the crazy eyes." Okay. But it just made me very self-conscious. self-conscious. self-conscious. And actually, weirdly, I remember for a couple of years after that, I was acting like this and everything. Go and watch some of my stuff from like the early, bro. I'm like, that's brilliant. That's so good. I have big eyes.

I can be I get animated. It's I've got, you know, learn to try and lean into that. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Question number three. You mentioned your wife a few times. What's been the biggest lesson that you've learned from your wife? When I see the path that my wife has been on, how she's had to fight every step of the way, the dedication, the devotion it has taken for her to tell her story with such specificity and and reach the world with it. I think I've kind of understood what devotion means.

Devotion to her path. Her creativity is a kind of prayer is a kind of devotion. Devotion and seeing how she is with our child. I think she just operates from like a deep place, you know. you know. you know. I think the biggest thing she's taught me that and also you can never buy enough phone charges. She will take them all and lose them all. all. all. Yeah. You know they say the way that the first thing about someone that you find cute ends up being the thing that's like kill me now.

We actually met because she had lost her phone charger. phone charger. phone charger. No, I was in a cafe in New York, a laptop charger. I was in a cafe in New York just writing a script or whatever. She came in on the phone, laptop's only on the communal table. She sits down opposite me, pulls out her laptop, starts emptying out her bag looking for her charger. It's like chaos. And I was just like, "Can I can I help you? Do you want to borrow my charger?" After six years of marriage, bro, that hasn't changed.

changed. changed. She's still borrowing my charger now. I'm trying to hide the charger from her. That's always that was like, was that Did she know? She was like, "Was that no, I might have thought that maybe for a minute. Now that I know her, I just know know know it's like a vortex of charges." No, but look, I'm I'm I'm just kind of trying to downplay it and joke around, but I think, you know, my wife has taught me um so much, but the word that comes to my mind is devotion.

Devotion to a purpose, to a journey. Um yeah, to your path. I love that, man. Beautiful answer. Uh question number four, what do you pray to God for today? I went to Mecca recently, and you do this thing where you kind of try and pray for everyone you know by name. And I started realizing that everything ends up kind of cohering around like three basic ideas. I pray for people's health. health. health. I pray I pray I pray for people's ability to provide. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

Um for themselves and their loved ones uh in a way that allows them to have dignity and feel good about it. And the third thing that I always pray for everyone is is for them to be brought closer to their purpose. I always say, God, bring me close to my purpose cuz that's a way of bringing me closer to myself as you intend. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And also closer to you. Your purpose. I think your path is something that is extremely personal but also divine. And so alignment to our path to our purpose.

There's this phrase in Islam theat theat theat which is the straight path and people interpret that in different ways but for me it's about finding your path the path that's intended for you. So yeah man your health your health your health your roi your ability to provide and your path. your path. your path. I love that. Have you been to Mecca before? Is that the first time? No I went once when I was 15 but I it was different experience. Um I went older and actually in from a more spiritually skeptical place you know how life throws you around and you kind of ask questions and we went this December and both me and my wife were went with openness and I would say you know we are Muslim and um we have spirituality in our lives but we also feel often that organized religion and the way that it's used is definitely brought some skepticism into our hearts as well and and going there was incredible.

And I would say it was actually just a physical act with of walking around in a circle with all these people from all over the world. Everyone dressed the same, everyone's mask kind of stripped away. There's just such a sense of oneness there. It was really kind of beautiful. And I promised myself, I got to try and bottle this feeling. But of course, as soon as you're on that plane, you're like back on your phone. you. Um, but that was it was powerful. Yeah. It's interesting as you were talking about that because I've been thinking about this idea a lot about how modern society has made everything about upwards and forwards and actually when you look at spiritual traditions everything's circumambulating everything's circumambulating everything's circumambulating beautiful beautiful beautiful and even in India when you go to a holy place you you circle it or in a wedding when you walk around the fire seven times everything circle and so when you start looking at life that way versus that way I love it it's just a fascinating like mindset shift of like Oh, what if we saw life as cyclical and not as linear and everything we just talked about today?

I love what you're saying. I think of it as a spiral. A spiral. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Because you kind of retread the same ground in life, but hopefully from a more elevated perspective each time. I like that. You know, um, and epiphany kind of works in that way as well. And those leaps that you have of understanding. I I usually kind of not by going to by retracing your steps. Yeah. and feeling different or wanting something to feel different. I like the ascension aspect that you just added that's not just round and round and around.

It's it's so there is some ascension which is which is beautiful. Uh fifth and final question we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. I'm really excited for your answer actually. You can think about it for as long as you want. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? I want to be off my phone more. But we're all locked in because everyone's on their phone. I'll put it down if everyone else does.

I just want everyone to be off their phone. I want everyone to go back to dumb phones. And and here's why that I go through periods of time where I put my phone away totally. I put it in a little safe and I lock it away for like 12 hours or 20 hours or um you know before we had a kid, me and my wife would go away and she as a novelist she has to do that kind of deep work. You know, you can't kind of dip in and out of it.

the way she does it, at least she can't. And so the phone would go away for like 5 days. We'd like check into a hotel, give it to them, and say, "We'll take this when we check out." Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Time feels totally different. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. My experience of the day feels totally different. The thoughts in my mind are totally different. I'm a little bit closer to being obsessed with the Velcro on the shoe again. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to just do that.

I don't know what that means about this show though, Jay. Who gets to see it? Maybe we'll have certain just certain hours in the day or we can all go back. go back. go back. That's a great answer. I love it. I feel like that's that's that's the crux of it all. all. all. Rammed bait. Uh excited for everything that comes from this day. I hope we stay in touch. It's been such a joy to do this with you and I hope you felt you got to share everything and anything you wanted to talk about.

Absolutely. and thank you for creating this space for me and for other people. It's a very enriching space and empowering one where we can just be vulnerable in that way and share. So, thank you. thank you. thank you. Thank you, man. Thank you. If you're feeling inspired by this episode, you won't want to miss my conversation with Wicked's Cynthia Arivo. Arivo. Arivo. We are afraid to let a person go and we need to be okay with letting people go. We don't know what path people are walking on when they walk into our lives.

We might just be a stepping stone in their path just like stepping stones in their