Rethinking Success | Mia Birdsong

Key Takeaway

Start a 'Kid Fun' exchange with 2-3 families: every other Saturday, one family hosts all the kids for 4 hours while other couples get free time. This simple system builds community, strengthens your relationship, and creates a village to help raise your children—without the cost of babysitters or the isolation of doing it alone.

Episode Overview

Dan Harris interviews Mia Birdsong about rethinking success through the lens of community and relationships. Birdsong argues that American culture's emphasis on independence and individual achievement is fundamentally at odds with human nature, leading to isolation despite professional success. She shares practical strategies for building community, including shared childcare arrangements, and critiques how capitalism's extractive nature prevents us from having the time and energy needed for meaningful relationships.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Rethinking Success | Mia Birdsong from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hello everybody. How we doing? Something I've been thinking about and writing about a lot lately is how to define success. success. success. a shrink. A therapist I was seeing once observed that I was psychologically speaking the apex of western man. I believe that was the phrase he used. And I also believe he did not mean this as a compliment. He observed that because of my conditioning in this individualistic culture, I had come to view success in a limited way really just in terms of money and power.

And the skills that I had honed in this regard were what the psychologist called I skills. Meaning they were all about myself. you know, how to work hard, how to hone my craft, how to stick up for myself. And I was lacking, according to the shrink, you skills, you know, skills that involved other people like communication, collaboration, compassion. And I want to add here that this is not gooey or gauzy stuff, you skills. As the Wharton organizational psychologist and bestselling author Adam Grant has often argued, these days in the workplace, character skills, in other words, you skills are more important than cognitive skills, eye skills.

Anyway, I bring all this up because it was in this spirit that I got interested in the work of a writer named Mia Birdong, who is my guest today. Mia has some provocative ideas about rethinking success, independence, individualism, and the American dream. For her, the real keys are relationships and community, i.e. you skills. I want to say just early and often here, I'm aware that words like relationships and community can come off as soft or cliched or anodine or meaningless. meaningless. meaningless. That's the way uh they came off for me for many many years.

But there is a growing body of research and thought that strongly suggests that these are actually the critical skills for health, for happiness, and as I mentioned before, for success. So in this conversation, we talk about how to build community, what it looks like in Mia's life, community, mutuality as a concept versus reciprocity, how to work with resentment and rejection in community, the etmological connection between friendship and freedom. I find that fascinating. The transformative power of asking for help, something many of us struggle with. Why she thinks the idea of bootstrapping or going it alone is a kind of self-hatred.

It's a provocative idea, and much more. Just a little bit more about Mia Birdong before we dive in. She's the founding executive director of a think tank called Next River and the author of a book called How We Show Up. This interview was originally recorded and aired in the spring of 2024, but we're reposting it as we approach a new year because we feel it could provoke a radical rethink for you. And this is the time of year to be doing that kind of work. Before we dive in, I want to do a quick plug here for the new 10% app.

So cool to be able to say those words. Uh the app has just gone live. We will be doing a free New Year's meditation challenge in early January, seven days with Joseph Goldstein, the great meditation teacher. He has cooked up something incredibly cool for you. Uh it's a kind of master class, an extraordinary and accessible on-ramp to Buddhist meditation. This 7-day course that he's crafted is good for beginners. It's also good for experienced meditators. I was in the room meditating right alongside him as he recorded these sessions and I've been hanging out with him for years and I still got a ton out of these meditations.

In fact, I'm going to be doing them again right alongside you from January 5th through the 11th. If you want to do this free challenge, you can sign up at danharris.com. Not only is the challenge free, there's also a 30-day free trial for the app if you want to try before you buy. One last note f I promise this is the last thing I'm going to say before we toss a break and get to the conversation. But one last note, we will not be holding our weekly live meditation on Tuesday, December 30th, since I and many of you will be on vacation.

I will, however, be live and with you three times during the New Year's challenge, the regular live meditation and Q&A session at 4:00 on Tuesday the 6th of January, but we'll do those again at 4 Eastern on the 8th and the 11th. Okay, we'll get started with Mia a bird song right after this. Today's show is sponsored by Hule. That's h u l. There's this great guy who does um some work on our house here in New York, Christopher. Shout out to Christopher. to Christopher. to Christopher.

And uh when he found out that Hule was sponsoring uh the show and that they had very kindly sent me uh several cases of their stuff, he was super excited because he's a power user of Hule and uh I gave him some Hule and uh he is just uh delighted. One of their products is something called Hule ready to drink. Uh it's a complete meal in a bottle. 35 g of protein, 7 g of fiber, and 27 vitamins and minerals. Literally ready to go. No prep, no mess.

and it keeps you full when the alternative is grabbing whatever holiday snack is closest. I'm also digging Hule's new canned super greens drink. I've got a bunch of cans in the fridge. 42 vitamins and nutrients, 4 g of fiber, 25 calories, no added sugar. In December, it is often the case that our vegetable intake bottoms out because we're spending so much time at holiday parties. Fuels canned supergreens drink can be an answer to that. Three flavors to choose from: apple, peach, and blueberry. Uh, if you're trying to stay fueled during the busiest, snackiest time of the year, Hule makes it easy and Hule just launched into Target nationwide.

You can find them in the health and wellness aisle. Get 15% off your first order at hule.com with the code happier. That's code happapper. H A P I E R. Minimum $75 purchase. Huge thanks to Hule for helping me and Christopher stay sane and healthy this holiday season and for supporting this podcast. Mia Birdong, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here. Glad to have you here. I just curious, why did you get so interested in this subject of community? What was going on for you?

for you? for you? So, I think it's that I was noticing that the more, and I'm putting successful, I'm putting that in quotes, I was becoming, the less connected I felt and the harder it was to be in community. community. community. And I was curious about what that was about because it's not how I grew up. And I was also doing economic justice work that was really grounded in understanding the ways in which social capital can mitigate people's experience of poverty and was you know giving talks and presentations on all of that and would often have like at the end you know the you give a talk and then at the end like some people come up and they want to ask you questions or whatever And And And like an unsettling number of times during that period, there would be somebody kind of standing off to the side, clearly waiting for everybody to be done.

Most often that person was a white man. And after everybody kind of left, they would come up to me and in an almost confessional way say, "I don't have that kind of community in my life." And they would just kind of say it. And I was like, there was no question. There was just this like admission. And at some point, like the time that I most remember, this young man said it. And he asked me, he was like, "What do I do about that?" And I gave him some, you know, [ __ ] ad advice.

I don't even remember what I said. And it stuck with me. And I was kind of uncomfortable with what I had said and with clearly this like series of questions that I was being asked. And I think that kind of in combination with what I was experiencing myself made me just feel like there was something going on that I needed to understand for myself and something that felt like antithetical to who I thought of myself as what I wanted for myself, for my children, for my friends.

So I just I felt like I needed to understand all of that more. that more. that more. What did you learn? [snorts] So, So, So, I can imagine you're thinking [ __ ] I wrote a whole book about this. How can you ask me that question? No, I'm not thinking that. I'm thinking like what are I mean, I learned a lot of things. And the book that I wrote was really my own process and journey, right? I wasn't writing it, you know, I think sometimes people write a book because they've done a bunch of research and they have a perspective and they're going to bestow this wisdom on you.

And for me it was really that I had a bunch of questions and I was struggling with something and I wanted to share the perspectives and answers and information that I was getting as I was struggling. So I learned a lot of things. I learned that you know kind of unsurprisingly the American ideal of what success is is a very isolating one. You know we really uphold the idea of independence as a measure of success. which is kind of fundamentally antithetical to what it means to be a person.

We are not independent. We're not, you know, we're not turtles where our mom like lays a bunch of eggs on the beach and then is like, you know, peace out. Good luck with the seagulls. We don't raise ourselves. We don't care for ourselves. We don't acquire the things we need to live like food and shelter and, you know, water. on our own. We are inherently interdependent animals like biologically that's who we are and that is in opposition with the kind of ideal that America puts forward in terms of what success looks like.

So it made sense to me that part of what I was experiencing experiencing experiencing as I achieved this version of success was isolation. was isolation. was isolation. We are a society that is like allergic to asking for help because we see that as a sign of weakness. But of course, all of us need help and support. And not only do we need it, but we and the people who are offering it benefit from it. I learned that the best models we have for how to be in relationship with each other, with how to build friendships and families and communities, the best examples of those are happening in the most marginalized communities.

communities. communities. I think largely because the systems of success and support that we have, you know, either kind of exclude those folks or harm them. And people have had to for survival reasons figure out how to take care of each other outside of those systems. And I don't want to romanticize like the experience of being, you know, oppressed as like a black person or a queer person or an unhoused person. And certainly not that's not a universal experience for people who are marginalized. But the examples that I kept finding as I was interviewing people and as I was researching these ideas were among, you know, black folks, queer folks, unhoused people, sex workers, groups of people who have really had to figure out how to survive in hostile environments.

So, how did your life change as a result of learning all of this? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is that another overly broad question? No, but I mean the I feel like you know it was not just kind of trying to objectively research something. I was practicing. I was learning from the people who I was interviewing and from the kind of desktop research. I was building better community. And I think part of it is that it it sharpened a critique I already had of, you know, kind of American capitalism and our ideas of success.

It clarified for me why why why community and connection and friendship and family outside of kind of conventional definitions of those things but really expansive ideas of those things. It clarified for me why those things are important and why our survival is dependent on having those relationships. And I found so much joy and like evolution of myself in building those relationships. those relationships. those relationships. And I will say that you know I did the research from like 2018 2019. The book came out in June of 2020.

So during the pandemic and I got to experience kind of the fruits of you know this collective labor. You know, I think for a lot of people the first three years of the pandemic was a very isolating experience and then I think there were people for whom it was a time of uncertainty and anxiety and fear but there was also a lot of kind of solidifying of connection. There were ways in which the groups of people that I am in relationship with solidified and strengthened our bonds with each other.

We were providing each other with resources. We were providing each other with information. We were providing each other with a lot of emotional support. We were checking in on each other. If somebody got sick, we were taking care of them. So, it was really beautiful to kind of have had this, you know, couple of years of doing this research and practice and then have this opportunity to see, you know, in crisis what that looks like. I'm just curious on a nuts andbolts practical level once you learned, oh yeah, there's something missing from my and our understanding of success and the good life and that thing that's missing is community, community, community, interdependence, interdependence, interdependence, interbeing, as it's sometimes called.

What does your life look like on a day-to-day basis now as opposed to before you started this quest? I mean, the honest answer is that I still struggle with it. And this is the other thing that I think I learned since in in kind of the book coming out and then having conversations with people about it as they tried to put into practice ways of being in relationship that were deeper than what they had before. And I mean, I I still feel like I have an amazing, you know, community and I feel more connected to people, but I'm also very clear that this is not a like, you know, we can't bootstrap our way into community either.

We live in a society where the conditions do not actually support our relationships with each other. the conditions make it very difficult for us to have time, energy, knowledge and like reinforcing experience of being in connected relationship with each other. So one of the things that I say so much more to people now is like if this is hard even though this is who we are right we do not it's like we are air breathing creatures if we had to survive in the ocean like it would be hard right so even though this is who we are we struggle with it and that we have to recognize that so that we don't feel like you know we're failing at something that we should be good at.

We have to give ourselves and each other a lot of grace and relationship and connection requires tending but the circumstances that we're tending in are very hard which means that we have to be really vigilant about it which means it's exhausting right sometimes it's very exhausting to try to like maintain connection and relationship so now I think that I'm just more aware of when it's working and when it's not for me and both giving myself kind of permission to be shitty at it, but and also noticing and checking in with myself to see if there are things that I can do to shift that.

And sometimes there aren't. Sometimes I just go through a little period of feeling like I'm not as connected to my folks as I'd like to be. you know, as problematic as some of our technology is, I'm so grateful that I can, you know, text a whole bunch of people at once as opposed to having to like, I don't know, phone call them on the phone or visit them individually to just say like, I'm thinking about you. Sorry if I've been absent. Like, I noticed you've been absent, like whatever that is to just kind of maintain a little bit of the noticing of what's not working if I can't actually make it work.

Personally, I think it's very helpful actually to point out that this is hard, that the structure of modern society militates against having a community. Totally. [snorts] I wish I'd written that more into the book because I think that, that, that, you know, we often have like lists of stuff that we are trying to do and habits we're trying to change to make ourselves better people. And that can just become kind of a burdensome like list of ways in which you're [ __ ] up and that's just not helpful.

Like then we just feel like [ __ ] about ourselves. And I feel like it's okay for us to not get it right when it comes to relationship. But I think it is helpful to be explicit about that with ourselves and with our people, right? That we're like we're all struggling to do all these things and we're not always going to get it right. And if we can notice when we're screwing it up or when it's a struggle because of the circumstances we live in, I think even that's helpful in terms of the context of our relationships as well.

Yeah. And I actually would broaden it out personally as somebody who talks to audiences a lot about behavior change. I I often talk about the sort of seven or eight or nine pantheon of no-brainers when it comes to, you know, doing life better. sleep, exercise, meditations, nature, psychotherapy, medication if you need it, having a healthy diet without getting crazy about it. And the one I always end on is the importance of relationships because we have all of this data that shows us it's the number one lever to pull if you want to live a happy and long life.

But but one of the things I often point out to people is that habit formation is very hard. And I don't say that to be discouraging. I say it for just the opposite reason that if you can have these Pantheon these no-brainers in your mind as sort of directionally appropriate as north stars but give yourself a break as you're doing your best to pursue these then then I actually think that's the best probably that you're going to do. Yeah. And I think that part of it is again in the context of capitalism, we have to have to have to provide labor in order to earn this madeup thing called money so that we can get our basic needs met.

So we can literally stay alive, right? We can we have food and shelter and you know ideally some form of health care and education. And that just that takes up so much of our time and energy that all of those other things which we absolutely need to live a life of well-being like we can't actually like we're not failing ourselves if we can't hit those things right. it is that our culture is actually failing us that we live in a culture that is designed to impede us from being well people and because it's trying to extract from us our labor and I think it's really important especially for folks who are struggling with any of those things to recognize that you know we live in a society where work is the sun around which the universe of our lives revolves, which means that it dictates our time and we're meant to organize everything else in our lives around that.

And some of us absolutely like and myself included have the privilege of being able to dictate some of that. But nonetheless, if I don't work, I don't eat. If I don't work, my family does not have a place to live. So there's a prioritization there that has to happen. And that means that exercise, nutrition, therapy, nature, right? All those things that you named end up being like the second thing that I do. Like the the work piece has to come first or I die, right? Or we end up on the street or whatever.

And part of the leap of faith I think we need to take around the relationship piece is [snorts] that when it's working, it brings ease to all of those other things, right? there's a way in which I need to like pay more attention to time in nature or meditation or nutrition or exercise if I'm super disconnected from my people because my body right my system my spirit my mental health is not as supported if I'm not connected to other people so there all these levers to push and pull there's no actual like stasis of balance that we get to which can be like really discouraging right like to say that things are systems and you can't actually change those things, right?

On the one hand, I think is important to know like it's not your fault, right? It's not your fault that you're struggling with these things. And it also can feel too big to actually do anything about. And that's a place that I really like to sit in, that tension, right, of like the potential for just feeling hopeless and despondent about it all versus the ways in which we can kind of create our own micro infrastructures of support. the ways in which we can organize to change those systems, the ways in which we can recognize that we have a like no matter who your people are, right?

You have there's some history of your ancestors having to struggle with some of these same things and figuring out how to stand in a long arc that is not just about like what is it that you experience in your lifetime but what did your ancestors pass on to you and what are you passing on to your descendants so that it's not just we live in this [ __ ] up system and it is preventing me from realizing the best possible version of myself, but knowing that is actually generational work that needs to happen and figuring out what is yours to do in that arc.

And I feel like that's where my hope kind of stays is that yes, like I'm not going to live in a society that is actually as supportive of its all of its living beings as it should be. But I can do my part while I'm here to make sure that my descendants are a little closer to whatever that is. Yeah. I heard a the Daly Lama say something once that I I found to be reassuring even though I don't actually know if I buy the metaphysics of his assertion which I'm about to relate to you which is that I believe he was saying this to a bunch of activists that you need to think about this work over the course of multiple lifetimes and whether you believe in rebirth or not it's you know it's a it kind of puts it in perspective and calms you down but let me just go back to capitalism for a second because I'm curious how deep your critique of capitalism goes.

You talked about how we were in an extractive system and we need to work and that can prevent us from doing the things that we need to do to be happy and highly functioning. But, you know, I've spent time living with indigenous communities and from what I could tell they were all working too, raising children and attending the fields, hunting. I don't know of many societies where outside of the upper crust people weren't working. So maybe you're saying that yes, work is part of life, but we're not providing a social safety net that allows people to have enough extra time so that they can do the things that the human animal needs to do to thrive.

Yeah. So I think there is like separating the idea that work is capitalism, right? Of course, human beings have to do things in order to access the things we need to survive. Those things don't just like come to us. It's that we live in a system where we have to participate in the kind of grind of being productive in order to earn money and that if we do not do that, we starve, right? Or don't receive medical care or we can't have a house. In a well society, everyone is able to participate to the best of their own abilities.

And because it's a collective, right, there is a sense of responsibility for everyone who's in that collective. So you know we are people who are taking care of children are participating in some way and we make sure that they have food and shelter and water and care and rest and all the things that they need. People with disabilities right they exist. So we don't say like you know you don't you're not participating and you're not being productive so you don't get to eat. We have elders, right, who have, you know, less energy, less physical capacity, whatever.

And we still make sure that those folks are taken care of. One of the analogies that I sometimes use is there's this, I think it's a trust game, maybe. I don't remember what it is exactly, but you have a group of people and they're all standing in a circle with like their right shoulder facing in and they're all kind of tightly together and everybody sits down. So everyone is being held and everyone is holding and you know a someone who's much smaller than me can hold can I can be sitting in their lap because the strength of the group is actually supporting them and holding me and I feel like that is just a beautiful analogy of what the alchemy and like physics of a well community looks like.

Everyone is being held, everyone is holding and everybody is contributing to whatever their capacity is. And you know, over the course of our lifetimes or over the course of a week, like our capacity changes, but we in our in in our society, people are expected to show up to work often for a wage that doesn't actually allow them to access the things that they need to live. And they're expected to do that regardless of what their capacity is that day. So people show up to work sick.

They show up to work when they have people to take care of. they show up to work and when like transportation systems aren't working. And if they don't, they get fired. And that is the reality for a huge number of people in our society. And we're just we're not taking care of people and we're not providing them with the things they need. We are extracting from them. And it's almost as if people are being held hostage to this system because if they don't participate, they'll die or [snorts] they'll be on the street or they'll be malnourished and they certainly will not be well emotionally.

Do you believe the system can be fixed, you know, within the current system that we could legislate our way to a well society through the current paradigm or that it needs to be sort of overturned wholly? overturned wholly? overturned wholly? I mean, I don't see capitalism as a system that is meant to support us. So, it doesn't make sense to me to try to fix it. I'm much more interested in returning to slashcreating slashcreating slashcreating new systems that prioritize our well-being as opposed to profit. And as I say that, you know, I myself have an internal voice that's like that's unrealistic and you know, all the things.

And what I say to that voice and what I ask people who think that's ridiculous or unachievable is is is I mean one we don't know unless we try and and and we've also done a lot of hard things. I mean, the thing that I always go back to for myself when I think about what it means to end awful systems is I think about and this is where I go back to generational work, right? I think about my ancestors in like I don't know the 1700s and know that there were folks who were enslaved who were like, we really we just need to make like less shitty slavery, right?

like we need to create some laws and some regulations so that this system is less harmful to us because they couldn't imagine it not existing because it had existed for generations and would go on to exist for generations after they were dead. And then there were other folks who were like no like this system is just like fundamentally morally wrong and corrupt and it needs to not exist. And those folks were like, "We need to abolish it. We need to get rid of it." And they never saw the end of it.

But they believed that it was not enough to just kind of tinker around the edges of something that should not exist. So I try to put myself when I think about capitalism, I try to put myself in the mindset of being like, you know, it's all I've ever known. It's all generations of us have ever known. But it has not existed forever, right? It's not the only way to do things. And I think that we as human beings are like infinitely creative and have such capacity for imagining and building new things.

And I'm like, let's try something different. And I don't know how we get there. Like let's be clear, I don't know like what I don't have like a plan or a strategy for that. And there are people who absolutely have thought about these things. That's not my lane. That's not the role that I hold. But I see the ways in which capitalism is harmful not just to us, but I mean we're it's literally destroying the planet that we live on. It is harmful to like all life on the planet.

And I'm like, I don't want to just keep a system because it's really big and seems hard to get rid of if it's actually going to end up getting rid of us. I appreciate you letting me take you on this. Um, I don't know if it's a tangent, but just down this road. It's not a tangent. I feel like this is so fundamental to the work because again, like we're talking about community and the ways in which the system we live in makes it challenging, right?

Are there not the conditions for us to connect with each other? I mean, if only because we don't have enough [ __ ] time to do it, right? Like, if you're at work 40 hours, which we say is like full-time, but many of us, of course, work over fulltime, like whatever that is. Um, you think about the, you know, sleep, right? You got to sleep. And then all the things you need to do to run an adult life, right? whether it's raising children or caretaking for other people.

Um you know paying your bills, grocery shopping, cook like all the stuff you don't actually have a lot of time to be in relationship with people and relationships require time. So it is right in here like it feels like it is fundamental to what we're talking about. Yeah. I think for this show we don't often talk about um uh sometimes we do. It's not verboten by any stretch, but it's it's a we're we usually dwell in the space of like how an individual can improve their own lives and the lives of the people around them.

And so I think it's f I think it's totally fascinating and I'm glad we discussed it. And I want to also just get back to some of the things we were talking about earlier about like how your life looks differently, things you uh you've implemented into your life in order to to get this community that you so convincingly argue we need in order to thrive. And I believe one of the things you've done in order to sort of get this community going in your life is to involve other people in raising your children.

children. children. Absolutely. Neither of my husband or I grew up in families where our parents were the only people raising us. I was raised by my mom. My father was absolutely a part of my life, but I lived with my mother full-time. and she as a single working person figured out fairly early on that that was like not a thing you do by yourself. And she had friends who were basically my aunties and helped raise me. And then I think there was also just that my my kind of school community of folks, my friends and I helped raise each other.

My friend's parents helped raise me. So that was a context that I grew up in where there was just like lots of caring adults around me supporting me in whatever it was I was doing. And then my husband grew up in a kind of like the opposite kind of context where he lived with his parents. He's one of seven [snorts] and they lived in a commune sounds too culty but like a a very tight-knit rural community. So there were just groups of kids run around all the all the time.

There were lots and lots and lots of adults who were doing caretaking of children, helping to raise kids. We like I am now part of that community. So there all these folks who my husband and his siblings grew up with who are people that my children have now grown up with. So we both grew up in that context. And you know, part of what we were talking about earlier is why I wrote the book that I wrote. And what I saw is that for us, right, like we live in a city, we own our own home, we both at the time were essentially running our own businesses.

And there was a way in which it was super easy to kind of isolate and feel like everything that needed to happen for our children was going to be up to us. And there was a point after my son was born when I was just like this is this is some [ __ ] Like at the very least I need to have some dates with my husband. And I was thinking about how occasionally we would like pay for a babysitter and go out to eat. And I was like that's you know I like a fancy cocktail like that becomes very expensive.

So I thought you know there are other families who are struggling with the same thing. and I talked to two other families that my daughter, the kids all went to school together and we started this thing called kid fun and that was our like marketing for the kids. We didn't call it date night. And every other Saturday for like 4 hours, all the kids would go to one family's house. And then the other two couples could go do whatever, go have dates. Sometimes for us that meant we could go and have sex like when it was light out still in our house.

Like we would stay home and like, like, like, you know, get take out, have sex, and like watch a movie. So there was certainly the intended result was like that I got to spend this time with my husband where we were not, you know, caretaking. We were not talking about logistics. We could just like hang out and enjoy each other's company. But there ended up being all of these other benefits that thrilled me. And part of it was about the kids and their relationships with each other and that they, you know, had this regular time when they would spend time together in each other's homes.

They got to be in different households and adapt to like whatever the rules in that household are. And that I feel like is just such a good skill for people to have, right? I also found that when we had the kids in our house, like they were entertaining themselves. They were like, you know, playing, they were watching whatever. And I still got to have kitchen date with my husband. We would be in the kitchen. The kids would be eating pizza. We'd take our pizza and a glass of wine and like be in the kitchen.

And the kids would be in the living room. So we still got to like spend time with each other which was amazing. And then the other thing was about the the relationships that the kids had with the adults who weren't their parents and the ways in which which which I myself got close to children who were not my children. The ways in which I saw my kids develop relationships with adults who were not their parents. and the love and care that those relationships provided for them was just really beautiful.

And that was just like it was so easy to structure and put together. Everybody was excited about it. You know, we stopped doing it when our kids could start being at home by themselves. But I think during those early years when you're just kind of consumed with the relentlessness of taking care of little people who can't, you know, make their own dinner or obviously be trusted to be home by themselves. It was such a a relief for us, but also there were all these other benefits that ended up happening, which was amazing.

was amazing. was amazing. Coming up, Mia Birdong talks about uh some practical tips for building community in your own life, mutuality versus reciprocity, and some tips on working with an inevitable part of interacting with other people, resentment and rejection, when you're in community with others. like in the example you just gave um with the other families, how important is like equivalence like equivalence like equivalence of help? Like does everybody have to be giving and taking the same amount? I mean in this context we did because we just kind of rotated but I think of other contexts where again if there are enough people that it's not about reciprocation, right?

It is about mutuality and for me that distinction is reciprocation is I do this thing for you that's worth this amount of time or money or there's some like calculation that happens and then with the understanding that at some point you will do that thing for me right or something equivalent for me. Whereas mutuality feels much more it's less about a one-on-one relationship. It feels like it's about a group and it is that everybody contributes like to their capability and that we we understand that the folks who you know in the moment or consistently can contribute less that them getting what they need benefits us, right?

So, it's not like we're all doing more to take care of this person and it's completely like altruistic, but it's actually this understanding that that our own well-being is dependent on the well-being of the people in our community and that you know like all of us contribute in the ways that we can. It's looking at the complexity of contribution as well, right? Like I had a friend who um mo had to move recently and I had my husband come over because I was like there he's he'll just kind of like come and like he's my farm hand at home, right?

If I need like bales of hay or whatever moved and it's not because he's actually stronger than me. It's because my contribution tends to be more of the like management organizing of things, right? like I don't clean the house, he does. Um I want the bales of hay moved. Like he'll do that for me. So I had him come over to help move stuff with us. And to be clear, this was my Pilates instructor. There are a whole lot of very strong people there. But I was like, he should come and bring some energy that is like he will just do whatever we tell him to do as opposed to being trying to manage it.

Because there were a lot of us in the management role. And he did it not because he don't take Pilates with her, but he knows that her well-being benefits me, right? And she is part of our community. And there was a way in which I feel like that that knowing, right, that like we we do things for somebody in our community because we know that they deserve whatever that is and we recognize that they have a role in our community that is facilitated, right, by our supporting them.

I mean, I keep going back to the word alchemy because it feels very like somebody could probably do the math, but you don't need to because you just it's there's a kind of like pragmatic faith that you have to have in that context that I find is in and of itself a nourishing thing, right? When I can show up for people that I love, when it is me giving freely of my time, energy, commitment, whatever, there's a way in which I am nourished by that, right?

That I'm nourished by supporting other people. people. people. I like that pragmatic faith. While we're on a a practical tip here, one of the things you write about is rejection. Um, and I'm going to read you back to you. You say when people say no, it's information about them, not rejection, not about you. This realization helps us process, helps us distinguish between what's ours to deal with and what is somebody else's. Yes. I mean, that totally question. I don't know. I mean, I think that we that we that we and this is not to say like if you take something if it feels hurtful that you shouldn't feel hurt.

like feel hurt but understand that there's something about receiving other people's boundary right that I have tried to find gratitude in like one of the things I often say if I ask a friend for something or to do something for me right and they say no because they're busy or don't have the capacity for it or whatever is I say thank you because I don't want my folks to extend themselves in ways that are crossing their own boundaries, right? That are beyond what is a like healthy limitation for them.

And rarely am I in a position where there's only one person, right, who can do a thing for me or where the thing is life or death. And if it is life or death, people will say yes. And that and so when I receive the no, right, it's not about rejection of me, right? It is about them caring for themselves. And since I care about them and I want them to be well, I feel like I want to receive their no with some gratitude and some thanks.

And then the other thing I think is that people often have a hard time saying no. So saying thank you when people say no relieves some of that social pressure that we often feel to say yes. And I want my folks to know that like I care about them and I want them to feel like they can say no to me when they can't give freely of whatever it is that I'm asking for. What do you do if you've got a person who's consistently saying no and also asking for a lot?

I mean, I don't have that, but I think that what I would do is have a conversation. conversation. conversation. So, one of the things my therapist said to me and my husband very early we when we were in couples therapy with her is she said, "Resentment is information for you that a boundary has been crossed." And I was so mad about that because I was like, "Isn't resentment when I get to be like self-righteous about somebody else like [ __ ] up or not doing enough?" So, [snorts] if I'm asking something of somebody and they're consistently saying no and I'm doing a lot for them and I'm feeling resentful, that's information for me that I maybe shouldn't be providing as much in that relationship.

And part of it depends on what it is, right? Like if it's somebody who like can't do the like I'm not going to like there's a match that you have to have have to kind of like have with what it is you're asking for in somebody's capacity. And if I'm consistently asking them for something they don't have the capacity for that means I need to understand more about what their capacity is. But I feel like you're asking for a question about contexts in which people often like they're in relationships with people who are a little selfish, right?

And are often asking for things but not giving. And then I'm like, yeah. So for me, a balanced relationship, right, is I don't want to be giving things to people who are selfish and are not willing to give of themselves. So for me, the answer would be I mean, I'd want to have the conversation, but it's also like then I need to provide less, right? I need to I'm no longer giving freely if I'm feeling resentful. So I need to set my own boundary around what it is I'm going to do for that person.

Now, there are I definitely have people in my life for whom I do more for them than they do for me. And I'm fine with it. It doesn't feel it like is an easy thing for me to do and there's nothing I actually want from them. And that feels fine to me. And again, it's because I'm not thinking that the relationship needs to be reciprocal. That there needs to be balance because human beings aren't that way, right? We all have different capacities and abilities and people got [ __ ] going on in their lives, right?

So, if I'm not feeling resentful, then that's fine. But if I am, then I need to like reassess what's going on in that relationship for me. Yeah, that makes sense. I I think I have friends where it's not strictly equal, but it doesn't really matter. I have so much going for me in terms of luck vis, you know, like the womb I came out of and all the opportunities that have been showered down upon me in my life. And so other people may not have that, but I want them in my life.

And so if it's not entirely a one-way street, but you know, most of the traffic is going in one direction, that's fine. It's worth it. But, okay, so I know I know you get this question a lot and I know you didn't write a how-to book. Um, but I can imagine there are a lot of people listening saying, "Oh, well, we hear in every [ __ ] TED talk that we need to have social connection in order to be happy." And you, Dan Harris, are telling this all us this all the time on this show.

So, like, what do we do about it? I'm an introvert or I don't know that many people. I just moved to a new city. You know, what are the practical steps I could take? So, the first thing that when yes, I get asked this question all the time and I always say I don't know. But this is the question. This is the thing I feel like we need to ask ourselves, right? There's some internal questioning that I feel like I need to do about what kind of connection I'm looking for and why.

Like I really want to understand what is the space in myself that I have for relationship. What are the things that I need from relationship and relationship and relationship and like what kinds of relationships can I get that from? So one of the things that just came up for me is I'm thinking about like you know Mia in her 20s was often looking for romantic relationships to fill some hole in myself. And that is not a hole that's ever going to be filled by a romantic relationship.

And at some point I got to a place where I realized that and I got to take care of myself around that thing and it allowed for romantic relationships that that function in a very different way and that were not problematic for me. So I think knowing are these things that I need to get from myself or these things that I need to get from other people is really important. And then I think that there's a I mean you kind of brought up a bunch of different scenarios, right?

So when I think about the introvert, I think about how many introverts know an extrovert and can like pair up with that person. And like a lot of this requires that we talent ourselves, right? That we actually say to the people in our lives, this is a thing that I feel like I need to work on. This is something I want more of in my life. Can we talk about how to do that with each other or can we talk about how to do that in our community?

Or can you tell me how you did that here right in this particular context? So that's one thing is just like, you know, I mean, one of the things people often talk about is getting to know their neighbors. And I'm like, there's no magic like skill you need to get to know your neighbors. I've told people to like, especially if they're introverts, I'm like, pair up with the one, you know, extroverted neighbor, you know, or another introverted neighbor so y'all can just support each other. Like, you know, when I get a new neighbor to my neighborhood, we have a bakery that's real close.

So, I buy some cupcakes or whatever. I write a note and I welcome them to the neighborhood. I give them my cell phone number and my husband's cell phone number and I leave it on their doorstep, right? And inevitably, I get a text, you know, that day saying thank you. And then if there's a relationship to build beyond, can you just pick up a package for me? That's when that starts. in my on my neighborhood like we have there's a group text with a handful of us who we watch each other's animals.

I never worry if I'm like out of lemons or onions or soy sauce or whatever. I know somebody else is going to have it and I can, you know, get it. We make the kids do the like running across the street to get whatever the thing is. And that like that's like the beginning of those relationships, right? And then you know, you don't need to be best friends with your neighbors, but y'all should definitely know your neighbors. I feel like that's a piece of advice that I will I'll like die on that hill.

You should know who your neighbors are. The other thing I think is especially for folks who are like, you know, have just moved is that you don't we don't build these relationships in a day, right? Relationships take time to build. You have to find your people. It is certainly more challenging when you're not a child in school or in college anymore to build those kinds of relationships. Like part of what we we assume is going to happen in the context of school is that we're going to meet people who we're going to be friends with.

Sometimes you meet those people in your workplace and that's great if that happens. And sometimes it just takes time and you have to like be out in the world and it has been really hard for folks to be out in the world for the last several years because out in the world has been a dangerous place. But there's just some like spaciousness we need to give ourselves as we begin to find the places where our people are going to be. And then I do think there is this process of like actually having conversations with people who you're already in relationship about like what kind of relationship you want and to see if they want something that can be more close or reliable or like you know kind of take it to whatever the next level would be in terms of that friendship or relationship.

relationship. relationship. You see what you just did there, which is you said I don't know when I asked you a question about how do we do this thing and then you listed a bunch of actual actionable actual actionable actual actionable tips. tips. tips. Yes. So I have lots there are lots and lots of things. I think that often when people ask the question of how they're looking for an answer, right? Like and part of it is that I I think that there is this way in which we actually need to ask ourselves and remind ourselves that being in relationship is who we are and we actually know how to do it.

We just have to give ourselves permission to do it because it can feel really [ __ ] awkward. We can feel like we're out of practice. And again, I feel like that is because of the system that we live inside of, right? That doesn't encourage connection. And it encourages us to get the things we need through transaction. Right? One of the hallmarks of American success is that you've hoarded enough resources so that you can get everything you need through transaction and you don't actually need to like rely on anybody else because you can't trust other people to show up for you.

So this is like a reclaiming of what it means to be a person. And many of us are out of practice with that, right? We feel like if we ask somebody for help then we owe them right because we think of help as something that you usually pay for or get or as some kind of like reciprocal transactional thing and this is something that is much more organic. This is something that is much more human and we have a lot of kind of detrris to remove from our assumptions about who we are, our assumptions about what other who other people are and what we all want in order to return to this thing that we actually do know how to do which is build and be in relationship with each other.

Coming up, Mia talks about the etmological connection between the words friendship and freedom and the transformative power of asking for help. I've committed a bit of journalistic malpractice, which is I'm only asking you now about a thing you often say that I like so much. In fact, was the reason why I wanted to have you on because I'd heard you say this elsewhere. Uh you talk about the etmological connection [snorts] between friendship and freedom. Can you lay that on us, please? This is like one of my favorite things and partly because this research that I came across is actually what I'm doing now.

So when I was doing research for my book, I came across in a couple of different places actually. So this information about freedom that just like resonated with me I had never heard before and it just like I could not let go of it. So one is that the etmological root of the word friendship and the word freedom is a Sanskrit word that means beloved and just that in and of itself I was like oh friendship and freedom they used to like sit together right they like came from the same womb and I was just like I don't know how to think about that but yes like my spirit just said yes to that information and then the other piece was that pre 1500s right in a like very different western context from the one we have right now.

Someone who was enslaved was understood as being unfree unfree unfree partly because they were in bondage but also because they had been separated from their people. So that to be free was to be in connected community. And again this like totally resonated with me and it just made sense to me because of what I know about human biology and who we are as people, right? like we being in the tribe, right? Like that's just like our state of being is with the collective. And I went down like three different rabbit holes in my mind when I read these pieces of information.

So the first piece was it recast for me my understanding of black people's experience in America. And if we think about your people as not just being, you know, the human beings that you like are in proximity to, but your ancestors, the land that you're on, your relationships with other living things, right? So that when black folks were kidnapped and trafficked from African continent across the ocean, we were obviously we've been separated like deeply from our people. And then if you look at the way that slavery was practiced in America, like there was this intrinsic piece of it that was about the constant threat of being sold away from your people.

And then obviously for many people the experience of being sold away from your people. If you look at the, you know, kind of postreonstruction white supremacist terrorism in the south that created a refugee crisis that we call the great migration, right? again, black folks being driven away from land and family and family and family through to the prison industrial complex to child protective services. There's been this American project of trying to make black people unfree by separating us from each other. And we see this too with like indigenous folks and you know boarding schools with practices at the US border with Mexico, people being separated from each other as a way of making them unfree.

And then of course, anytime you're perpetrating any kind of oppression on people, there's always the resistance to it, right? So, black folks jumping overboard slave ships being like, I'm going to get back to my people one way or another. People obviously rebelling, running away from, resisting, being away from their folks on the plantation. plantation. plantation. After emancipation, After emancipation, After emancipation, there were thousands of advertisements placed by black folks who were trying to find loved ones who they hadn't seen in decades. They're archived. You can find them online.

They're beautiful and utterly heartbreaking. And then I think about a lot of the resistance movements that exist being about like how are we making sure that we can be with each other? And then like I can't tell you how many black folks I know who found out like when they were grown-ups that you know their uncle Bobby is not actually their father's brother but is their father's like best friend from you know grade school. So there's this way in which we also just like make family with each other.

So there was that rabbit hole of just like understanding this American project to try to make black people unfree and our resistance to that kind of unfreedom. The other rabbit hole I went down was thinking about what I had learned and what kind of gets promoted as freedom in America and that it is deeply about independence. It is about again like getting enough resources so that you can get everything you need through transaction and not relationship. A hallmark of American freedom is that you can do whatever the [ __ ] you want and not be responsible for or accountable to anybody.

And as I thought about that, I was like, "Oh, that's like actually the opposite of freedom." We've been told there's been this like hundredsy year grift that America has been pulling on all of us, telling us that freedom is a thing that's actually the opposite of freedom. And then I thought about what would what would what would this country be like if we believed that to be free was to be in connected community. What would our economy look like? What would our school system look like?

What would our health care system look like? What would our neighborhoods be like? How would we think about designing right like cities? how would it change the way that we what we expect from each other and what we expect from, you know, government or other institutions? institutions? institutions? And I was like, well, that's the world I want to live in. I want that one. The one where we believe, as Faniel Lu Himer said, right, nobody's free unless everybody's free. Where we recognize, right, that like my well-being actually is dependent on the well-being of my neighbors.

And that when I am, you know, in the example I gave of that canalvered everybody's sitting on each other's laps thing, right? When I hold you, everybody else is holding me. That's the world that I want to live in. Last question for me. You say freedom is a practice. What does that mean? So if being free is about being in connected community, right? That's not a thing that you just step into and then it's there. It actually is a thing that we need to practice. It is a thing we need to need to need to work on both kind of our own like noticing the places that that we have where we don't believe it either because we don't trust that we can have it or something in us is resisting it.

You know, like one of the things that I absolutely struggle with is asking for help, right? is like not kind of doing whatever it is myself. I feel like the our audience can is absolutely familiar with this. But if I believe that freedom is a collective practice, then then then my asking for help, right, my well-being is something that the people who love me actually are invested in and people want to help me because part of the reason we don't ask for help is because we believe that it makes us weak.

The other thing is that we don't think people will actually help us. I would go so far as to say it's a kind of self-hatred to be independent. So, I feel like I need to push myself to ask for help when I feel myself being resistant to it because I'm uncomfortable with it. In the summer of 2021, I was diagnosed with colon cancer. And I And I And I remember remember remember making an explicit decision to not be a strong person through it, to not be like, I'mma kick cancer's ass, like I'mma do, you know, all of that to like perform a kind of, you know, strong black woman.

black woman. black woman. And I And I And I wrote emails to well first there was like a group of folks who like anointed themselves my care squad and I wrote an email to my community and I was like this is what's happening. I want all of you to help me. There are things that only I can do right nobody else can go through chemo for me. Nobody else can go through surgery and recover. Nobody else can can can hydrate me. Like there are things that I have to do myself.

But I was like everything else that can be done by another person, I am asking you all to do that. And my community showed up in the most gorgeous, beautiful, powerful way. powerful way. powerful way. And I will also say because we were talking about the conditions that allow us to be in community earlier, this was this period of the pandemic which for my folks things had slowed down a lot, right? People were not working as much. There was a lot of spaciousness [snorts] and I know that folks would have shown up for me before and they would show up for me now.

But I think that there was a way in which the conditions that we were existing in allowed for a level of joy and creativity in the way that people showed up for me. So like me and my family being fed, that was a given. That was like the low bar. There were spreadsheets. spreadsheets. spreadsheets. There was a walk crew of folks who would come to my house and make sure I was going for walks. There was an errand crew that like if I needed anything, the captain of the errand crew would like text everybody and somebody would go get whatever it was.

When I was in the hospital hospital hospital getting part of my colon removed, there was a group of people on the lawn of the hospital singing for me. My folks created a joy fund for me that was like a pot of money for me to just spend on something that brought me joy. I bought art supplies cuz I could be in bed and do art. And that asking for help, that decision transformed certainly my experience of going through surgery and chemotherapy. And just to be clear, I'm like totally fine now.

It supported my family, right? Because it's co and I have no immune system. No one can come in our house, right? So my husband's doing a lot of the caretaking inside, but there was a whole bunch of people outside making sure that whatever we needed for that care to happen was available. But the thing that I kept hearing over and over again was how beautiful and nurturing it was for the people who were able to help me to be in in a community of folks who were supporting me, right?

Like it did something for them. And I hope that this is a lesson that I never forget because one, it was I mean it was uncomfortable sometimes to be asking, right? And to know that like I'm not I'm just sitting here being sick and feeling like [ __ ] like I'm not doing anything for anybody. So, it was uncomfortable, but I could see and people told me over and over again how much beauty and joy it brought them to be able to support me in that way, but also to be doing it with this group of people, right?

There were hundreds of people involved and they didn't all know each other, but there was a way in which they could see like how other people were supporting me. It felt like people felt like they were alive. people felt and especially in this moment when we were going through this pandemic, right? It brought people a sense of purpose and capacity and a belief that like we can do these things for each other. It's a great story and I'm glad you're as healthy as you look. Thank you.

And I really agree with you about the thing we often overlook that giving people a chance to be decent, to be helpful, to be generous actually is a kind of a gift. And that's a great point that you make. I'm really grateful to you for coming on this show. Before I let you go, could you please shamelessly plug your book, your new organization, anything else you want to plug, your favorite TV show, whatever it is. Someday I will have a TV show. So the book is called How We Show Up: Reclaiming Friendship, Family, and Community or Family, Friendship, and Community, I don't remember, but How We Show Up.

And my organization is called Next River. It's an institute for practicing the future. We are doing this big project right now called freedom's revival which has been started what we've done so far is the research on the kind of conditions that are necessary for collective freedom. In mid to late September we'll be releasing the research that we've put together. It'll be on our website which is next.org. I think it'll be really amazing to read. That's what I got so far. Awesome. Keep up the good work and thank you again for coming on the show.

Mia Birds. Thank you for having me. Thanks again to Mia Birdong. Awesome to talk to her. Don't forget to go sign up at danh harris.com if you want to participate in our free New Year's meditation challenge which will be running from January 5th through the 11th. Joseph Goldstein will be our teacher. He has crafted an amazing series of seven guided meditations that really are a kind of master class and on-ramp to Buddhist meditation. Great for beginners, great for people who've been meditating for a long time.

If you join us, I'll be doing the challenge right alongside you. I'll be doing a bunch of live sessions to complement the challenge video sessions where you can come meditate a little bit more with me and then ask me some questions. It's going to be amazing and it will be run through our new 10% app, which I can't believe I get to say. I can't believe I get to have an app again. If you want to sign up for the challenge and for the app, go to danharris.com.

The challenge is totally free and there's also a free 30-day trial for the app. If you want to try it before you buy it, yeah, super excited about this. Finally, thank you to everybody who works so hard on this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. producer. producer. DJ Cashmir is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.