Radiohead’s Ed O’Brien on Depression, Trauma & Finding Light Again

This underlying depression had been This underlying depression had been going on for years. It [music] just going on for years. It [music] just going on for years. It [music] just seemed so bleak and it seemed how do I seemed so bleak and it seemed how do I seemed so bleak and it seemed how do I get out of that? get out of that? get out of that? >> Depressions, breakdowns, illnesses, the >> Depressions, breakdowns, illnesses, the >> Depressions, breakdowns, illnesses, the body is saying there's something not body is saying there's something not body is saying there's something not right here. right here. right here. >> Ed [music] O'Brien of Radiohead >> Ed [music] O'Brien of Radiohead >> Ed [music] O'Brien of Radiohead >> one of the architects of modern rock and >> one of the architects of modern rock and >> one of the architects of modern rock and rock and roll Hall of Fame [music] rock and roll Hall of Fame [music] rock and roll Hall of Fame [music] inductee inductee inductee >> has a solo record called Blue Morpho. >> has a solo record called Blue Morpho. >> has a solo record called Blue Morpho. >> The idea that the guy from Radiohead is >> The idea that the guy from Radiohead is >> The idea that the guy from Radiohead is going to complain going to complain going to complain >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> about not being happy, you know, nobody >> about not being happy, you know, nobody >> about not being happy, you know, nobody wants to hear that. wants to hear that. wants to hear that. >> No. And it was exactly that. It felt >> No. And it was exactly that. It felt >> No. And it was exactly that. It felt very indulgent. I'm not like that. I'm a very indulgent. I'm not like that. I'm a very indulgent. I'm not like that. I'm a rocker. But but but my body was just rocker. But but but my body was just rocker. But but but my body was just saying enough. I felt like I was saying enough. I felt like I was saying enough. I felt like I was carrying a weight [music] every day that carrying a weight [music] every day that carrying a weight [music] every day that was weighing me down. It was very very was weighing me down. It was very very was weighing me down. It was very very very physical. I cared so much before very physical. I cared so much before very physical. I cared so much before what people thought of me. The healing what people thought of me. The healing what people thought of me. The healing process is a process of self-love and process is a process of self-love and process is a process of self-love and going, "I'm [music] okay. going, "I'm [music] okay. going, "I'm [music] okay. I'm okay. I'm no longer hiding." You I'm okay. I'm no longer hiding." You I'm okay. I'm no longer hiding." You have to ask, [music] "Well, why was I have to ask, [music] "Well, why was I have to ask, [music] "Well, why was I hiding?" Well, I was hiding because hiding?" Well, I was hiding because hiding?" Well, I was hiding because >> Hey everybody, real quick before we dive >> Hey everybody, real quick before we dive >> Hey everybody, real quick before we dive in here, I wanted to take [music] a in here, I wanted to take [music] a in here, I wanted to take [music] a quick second to genuinely thank you for quick second to genuinely thank you for quick second to genuinely thank you for being here. The fact that you give us being here. The fact that you give us being here. The fact that you give us your time and your attention is your time and your attention is your time and your attention is something I do not take for granted something I do not take for granted something I do not take for granted ever. And if you're getting something ever. And if you're getting something ever. And if you're getting something out of these conversations and you out of these conversations and you out of these conversations and you haven't already, I want you to consider haven't already, I want you to consider haven't already, I want you to consider subscribing to the channel. It's really subscribing to the channel. It's really subscribing to the channel. It's really the single easiest way to help us out. the single easiest way to help us out. the single easiest way to help us out. It's free, it only takes a second, and It's free, it only takes a second, and It's free, it only takes a second, and it's actually a huge part of how we keep it's actually a huge part of how we keep it's actually a huge part of how we keep growing this show and bringing on the growing this show and bringing on the growing this show and bringing on the kinds of guests that make it worth your kinds of guests that make it worth your kinds of guests that make it worth your while. And according to our metrics, 67% while. And according to our metrics, 67% while. And according to our metrics, 67% of you watching right now aren't of you watching right now aren't of you watching right now aren't subscribed yet. So, if you're in that subscribed yet. So, if you're in that subscribed yet. So, if you're in that group, tap subscribe. It feels silly to group, tap subscribe. It feels silly to group, tap subscribe. It feels silly to ask, but it really is very helpful for ask, but it really is very helpful for ask, but it really is very helpful for us more than you know. All right. Let's us more than you know. All right. Let's us more than you know. All right. Let's get into it. get into it. get into it. It's like perfect timing that I'm It's like perfect timing that I'm It's like perfect timing that I'm sitting with you today to have this sitting with you today to have this sitting with you today to have this conversation. conversation. conversation. >> There were no coincidences. >> There were no coincidences. >> There were no coincidences. >> Yeah. That's right. >> Yeah. That's right. >> Yeah. That's right. Just synchronicities and Just synchronicities and Just synchronicities and In your case, like I'm curious In your case, like I'm curious In your case, like I'm curious >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> of the ways in which the album Blue >> of the ways in which the album Blue >> of the ways in which the album Blue Morpho Morpho Morpho mimics like the process of creating that mimics like the process of creating that mimics like the process of creating that work of art work of art work of art mirrors the journey that you went on mirrors the journey that you went on mirrors the journey that you went on with your with your mental health and with your with your mental health and with your with your mental health and your depression and and um this process your depression and and um this process your depression and and um this process of trying to make sense and and come to of trying to make sense and and come to of trying to make sense and and come to some place of healing and wholeness. some place of healing and wholeness. some place of healing and wholeness. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. I mean I mean I mean it's it completely mirrors that. it's it completely mirrors that. it's it completely mirrors that. Um Um Um and it is a it's a transformation and and it is a it's a transformation and and it is a it's a transformation and creativity is a I I guess it's a creativity is a I I guess it's a creativity is a I I guess it's a transformation of sorts. transformation of sorts. transformation of sorts. And there's a start a middle and an end. And there's a start a middle and an end. And there's a start a middle and an end. And the middle is where it gets really And the middle is where it gets really And the middle is where it gets really challenging. challenging. challenging. I feel like I feel like I feel like I haven't got enough experience of this I haven't got enough experience of this I haven't got enough experience of this a transformation but my experience of a transformation but my experience of a transformation but my experience of transformation is it feels impossible transformation is it feels impossible transformation is it feels impossible without without without the deeply challenging aspect the deeply challenging aspect the deeply challenging aspect >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> that is at the heart of it. >> that is at the heart of it. >> that is at the heart of it. Because Because Because you know, if you take the human body if you know, if you take the human body if you know, if you take the human body if you take the the mental health you take the the mental health you take the the mental health you know, my my my my belief is that the you know, my my my my belief is that the you know, my my my my belief is that the the the the there's an innate or not my belief but I there's an innate or not my belief but I there's an innate or not my belief but I I resonate with those who say or I resonate with those who say or I resonate with those who say or this idea that that there's an innate this idea that that there's an innate this idea that that there's an innate human the body has an innate human human the body has an innate human human the body has an innate human intelligence. It wants to heal. intelligence. It wants to heal. intelligence. It wants to heal. You know. You know. You know. And And And that's what depressions and that's what that's what depressions and that's what that's what depressions and that's what breakdowns and that's what illnesses can breakdowns and that's what illnesses can breakdowns and that's what illnesses can be or early onset. The body is saying be or early onset. The body is saying be or early onset. The body is saying there's something not right here and are there's something not right here and are there's something not right here and are you going to listen to this? And you you going to listen to this? And you you going to listen to this? And you know, the the coping mechanisms and the know, the the coping mechanisms and the know, the the coping mechanisms and the things from childhood that we all that things from childhood that we all that things from childhood that we all that become part of our character and you become part of our character and you become part of our character and you know, we think they're us. There gets to a point your body goes There gets to a point your body goes your body knows it's no longer serving your body knows it's no longer serving your body knows it's no longer serving you. Your mind goes I'm just this is me. you. Your mind goes I'm just this is me. you. Your mind goes I'm just this is me. I'm just carrying on and and essentially I'm just carrying on and and essentially I'm just carrying on and and essentially I think that's what a breakdown is. Your I think that's what a breakdown is. Your I think that's what a breakdown is. Your body's saying, "Enough." body's saying, "Enough." body's saying, "Enough." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. The universe is always knocking The universe is always knocking The universe is always knocking >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> trying to get our attention. >> trying to get our attention. >> trying to get our attention. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh but we're so captured >> Uh but we're so captured >> Uh but we're so captured um by our minds and by the stories that um by our minds and by the stories that um by our minds and by the stories that we're recycling in our brain thinking we're recycling in our brain thinking we're recycling in our brain thinking that they're ours not realizing that that they're ours not realizing that that they're ours not realizing that they were embedded before, you know, we they were embedded before, you know, we they were embedded before, you know, we had the ability to had the ability to had the ability to exercise agency over them and we're kind exercise agency over them and we're kind exercise agency over them and we're kind of all operating on some kind of loop of all operating on some kind of loop of all operating on some kind of loop like playing out a narrative that we like playing out a narrative that we like playing out a narrative that we didn't consciously choose. didn't consciously choose. didn't consciously choose. And when the universe is knocking trying And when the universe is knocking trying And when the universe is knocking trying to get your attention, to get your attention, to get your attention, we always have the opportunity to pay we always have the opportunity to pay we always have the opportunity to pay attention and make change, but for some attention and make change, but for some attention and make change, but for some reason reason reason it seems like the human animal uh needs it seems like the human animal uh needs it seems like the human animal uh needs to to to be in sufficient pain or suffering be in sufficient pain or suffering be in sufficient pain or suffering before they'll heed that knock and start before they'll heed that knock and start before they'll heed that knock and start making those changes. Like we can all making those changes. Like we can all making those changes. Like we can all make a different choice. make a different choice. make a different choice. But for some reason, we need to be in But for some reason, we need to be in But for some reason, we need to be in that place of suffering as, you know, that place of suffering as, you know, that place of suffering as, you know, kind of like the the crucible for our kind of like the the crucible for our kind of like the the crucible for our growth and for our learning and growth and for our learning and growth and for our learning and I don't know why that is, uh but if we I don't know why that is, uh but if we I don't know why that is, uh but if we don't pay attention, those knocks get don't pay attention, those knocks get don't pay attention, those knocks get louder and those the chaos, you know, louder and those the chaos, you know, louder and those the chaos, you know, starts to increase and the pain starts to increase and the pain starts to increase and the pain increases until we increases until we increases until we are willing to listen and course are willing to listen and course are willing to listen and course correct. correct. correct. >> Well, I think fundamentally, you know, >> Well, I think fundamentally, you know, >> Well, I think fundamentally, you know, there's there's human beings don't like there's there's human beings don't like there's there's human beings don't like being out their comfort zone. They get being out their comfort zone. They get being out their comfort zone. They get into a rhythm into a rhythm into a rhythm and that becomes and that becomes and that becomes that's how they make sense of that's how they make sense of that's how they make sense of everything. everything. everything. And And And yeah, it the only way to break that and yeah, it the only way to break that and yeah, it the only way to break that and and then that you're right. I I always and then that you're right. I I always and then that you're right. I I always say this or my personal experience is say this or my personal experience is say this or my personal experience is the universe gives you has you have the universe gives you has you have the universe gives you has you have everything around you in order to evolve everything around you in order to evolve everything around you in order to evolve and it's whether you listen or whether and it's whether you listen or whether and it's whether you listen or whether you're awake to it. you're awake to it. you're awake to it. And And And you know, and you're right. Exactly. If you know, and you're right. Exactly. If you know, and you're right. Exactly. If If I look back on my situation, If I look back on my situation, If I look back on my situation, this this this this underlying depression had been this underlying depression had been this underlying depression had been going on for years and I I'd sort of going on for years and I I'd sort of going on for years and I I'd sort of tried to tried to tried to address it with address it with address it with you know, start I went to see a healer you know, start I went to see a healer you know, start I went to see a healer in Brazil to to sort of kick it all off, in Brazil to to sort of kick it all off, in Brazil to to sort of kick it all off, but I also made things everything from but I also made things everything from but I also made things everything from dietary changes which were actually dietary changes which were actually dietary changes which were actually profound. profound. profound. You know, eliminating alcohol for a You know, eliminating alcohol for a You know, eliminating alcohol for a while, no drugs, while, no drugs, while, no drugs, um um um food, the kind of food I was eating cuz food, the kind of food I was eating cuz food, the kind of food I was eating cuz you know, there's the there's the link you know, there's the there's the link you know, there's the there's the link between the gut and the and the brain. between the gut and the and the brain. between the gut and the and the brain. Oh, I thought I'm I'm dealing with this. Oh, I thought I'm I'm dealing with this. Oh, I thought I'm I'm dealing with this. I'm dealing with this. It's this, but I'm dealing with this. It's this, but I'm dealing with this. It's this, but you get to you get to a certain point you get to you get to a certain point you get to you get to a certain point that toolbox that you have in order to that toolbox that you have in order to that toolbox that you have in order to to to help. to to help. to to help. You know, it's like that for me was that You know, it's like that for me was that You know, it's like that for me was that darkest moment was like everything I was darkest moment was like everything I was darkest moment was like everything I was doing wasn't wasn't doing wasn't wasn't doing wasn't wasn't >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> wasn't making a jot of difference. >> wasn't making a jot of difference. >> wasn't making a jot of difference. >> And when you're when you're in it, you >> And when you're when you're in it, you >> And when you're when you're in it, you don't want to hear that this is your don't want to hear that this is your don't want to hear that this is your opportunity for growth and opportunity for growth and opportunity for growth and transformation cuz it's hell. It's transformation cuz it's hell. It's transformation cuz it's hell. It's paralyzing. paralyzing. paralyzing. >> hell. That's right. And I think that >> hell. That's right. And I think that >> hell. That's right. And I think that thing of framing it thing of framing it thing of framing it within within within a bit like an artist or a musician or a bit like an artist or a musician or a bit like an artist or a musician or something when they frame the work they something when they frame the work they something when they frame the work they do within the arc of their life. It's do within the arc of their life. It's do within the arc of their life. It's the same thing with these these moments the same thing with these these moments the same thing with these these moments of supreme challenge and darkness. of supreme challenge and darkness. of supreme challenge and darkness. If you can frame it as this is the this If you can frame it as this is the this If you can frame it as this is the this is my hero's journey and I think that's is my hero's journey and I think that's is my hero's journey and I think that's why I definitely embraced why I definitely embraced why I definitely embraced this notion of the dark night of the this notion of the dark night of the this notion of the dark night of the soul which I think comes from St. John soul which I think comes from St. John soul which I think comes from St. John of the Cross. of the Cross. of the Cross. And And And this idea and you know, Dante's Inferno this idea and you know, Dante's Inferno this idea and you know, Dante's Inferno midway through life I lost myself in the midway through life I lost myself in the midway through life I lost myself in the woods. woods. woods. When I was able to I was just okay, when When I was able to I was just okay, when When I was able to I was just okay, when I'm like I'm not a freak. I'm like I'm not a freak. I'm like I'm not a freak. This is what This is what This is what people for thousands of years have been people for thousands of years have been people for thousands of years have been going through and this is part of the going through and this is part of the going through and this is part of the journey. This is the part of the journey journey. This is the part of the journey journey. This is the part of the journey of existence and of existence and of existence and I think it's super important to have I think it's super important to have I think it's super important to have that. that. that. To be able to frame it almost like you To be able to frame it almost like you To be able to frame it almost like you frame your life as a film sometimes in frame your life as a film sometimes in frame your life as a film sometimes in in in the sense of trying to make sense in in the sense of trying to make sense in in the sense of trying to make sense of it, you know, because of it, you know, because of it, you know, because on the you know, the coalface of it, it on the you know, the coalface of it, it on the you know, the coalface of it, it just seems so bleak and it seemed how do just seems so bleak and it seemed how do just seems so bleak and it seemed how do I get out of there? And I think for me I get out of there? And I think for me I get out of there? And I think for me that that was the hardest bit. It was that that was the hardest bit. It was that that was the hardest bit. It was like how long is this going to go on like how long is this going to go on like how long is this going to go on for? Because after 9 months I didn't for? Because after 9 months I didn't for? Because after 9 months I didn't feel like I'd made any shifts, but feel like I'd made any shifts, but feel like I'd made any shifts, but for instance, I guess if I'd had a for instance, I guess if I'd had a for instance, I guess if I'd had a if I lived in a community for instance, if I lived in a community for instance, if I lived in a community for instance, if we were in a proper community where if we were in a proper community where if we were in a proper community where you had your elders and your elders you had your elders and your elders you had your elders and your elders who'd been through that, they could go who'd been through that, they could go who'd been through that, they could go there. It's all right, you just sit with there. It's all right, you just sit with there. It's all right, you just sit with it. But I had a feeling that's what I it. But I had a feeling that's what I it. But I had a feeling that's what I had to do, but had to do, but had to do, but for me it was for me it was for me it was it it it the moment I was able to frame it in a the moment I was able to frame it in a the moment I was able to frame it in a in in in in a bigger journey is that the in in in in a bigger journey is that the in in in in a bigger journey is that the bigger picture is suddenly became more bigger picture is suddenly became more bigger picture is suddenly became more palatable. It was it was easier to deal palatable. It was it was easier to deal palatable. It was it was easier to deal with. with. with. >> How long had you been in the depths >> How long had you been in the depths >> How long had you been in the depths before you were able to make that before you were able to make that before you were able to make that perspective shift? perspective shift? perspective shift? >> about 6 7 months. They're >> about 6 7 months. They're >> about 6 7 months. They're Yeah, they're gradual things. It was Yeah, they're gradual things. It was Yeah, they're gradual things. It was particularly bad in the winter. particularly bad in the winter. particularly bad in the winter. And then the spring and summer comes, And then the spring and summer comes, And then the spring and summer comes, but you're still carrying away. You're but you're still carrying away. You're but you're still carrying away. You're still like what what why why did I feel still like what what why why did I feel still like what what why why did I feel heavy? Why is this exhausting? What's heavy? Why is this exhausting? What's heavy? Why is this exhausting? What's you know, why that why you know, why that why you know, why that why but then a bit of sunshine gives you a but then a bit of sunshine gives you a but then a bit of sunshine gives you a bit more, you know, bit more, you know, bit more, you know, you might go and swim in a river and you you might go and swim in a river and you you might go and swim in a river and you feel better and feel better and feel better and so it yeah, it was it did feel a lot so it yeah, it was it did feel a lot so it yeah, it was it did feel a lot like a long time and I like a long time and I like a long time and I that for me was I was fortunate cuz my that for me was I was fortunate cuz my that for me was I was fortunate cuz my wife Susie, she's kinesiologist. wife Susie, she's kinesiologist. wife Susie, she's kinesiologist. And she'd been through a similar sort of And she'd been through a similar sort of And she'd been through a similar sort of hers was longer hers was longer hers was longer through her teachings and through her through her teachings and through her through her teachings and through her her work it's like she's like her work it's like she's like her work it's like she's like you've got this. You just got to sit in you've got this. You just got to sit in you've got this. You just got to sit in the fire. Trust in the trust in the the fire. Trust in the trust in the the fire. Trust in the trust in the universe. universe. universe. >> This wasn't your first bout with >> This wasn't your first bout with >> This wasn't your first bout with depression. depression. depression. Uh Uh, but maybe the most acute or Uh Uh, but maybe the most acute or Uh Uh, but maybe the most acute or prolonged, like it's coinciding with prolonged, like it's coinciding with prolonged, like it's coinciding with lockdown, right? lockdown, right? lockdown, right? You tried the dietary You made lifestyle You tried the dietary You made lifestyle You tried the dietary You made lifestyle changes and helpful, but not changes and helpful, but not changes and helpful, but not going to solve the whole problem. You going to solve the whole problem. You going to solve the whole problem. You have this perspective shift where you have this perspective shift where you have this perspective shift where you realize maybe I can exert some agency if realize maybe I can exert some agency if realize maybe I can exert some agency if I just look at this as I just look at this as I just look at this as uh, a hero's journey and I'm just in it uh, a hero's journey and I'm just in it uh, a hero's journey and I'm just in it right now. right now. right now. What were the decisions that you made What were the decisions that you made What were the decisions that you made about how you were going to exercise about how you were going to exercise about how you were going to exercise that agency? Like what did you decide to that agency? Like what did you decide to that agency? Like what did you decide to explore in terms of modalities to claw explore in terms of modalities to claw explore in terms of modalities to claw your way out of this hole? your way out of this hole? your way out of this hole? >> I kept it pretty simple. I I mean, I'd >> I kept it pretty simple. I I mean, I'd >> I kept it pretty simple. I I mean, I'd had had had bits of therapy over the years, but bits of therapy over the years, but bits of therapy over the years, but I found that I found that I found that it was completely conditional on it was completely conditional on it was completely conditional on my relationship with the therapist and my relationship with the therapist and my relationship with the therapist and how much I resonated with them and I how much I resonated with them and I how much I resonated with them and I hadn't found anybody that I resonated hadn't found anybody that I resonated hadn't found anybody that I resonated with, so I didn't have a therapist. with, so I didn't have a therapist. with, so I didn't have a therapist. One thing that really helped, I'd had One thing that really helped, I'd had One thing that really helped, I'd had for years five elements acupuncture, for years five elements acupuncture, for years five elements acupuncture, which is the old form of acupuncture. It which is the old form of acupuncture. It which is the old form of acupuncture. It was pre-Maoist was pre-Maoist was pre-Maoist China. So, it's all about China. So, it's all about China. So, it's all about um, the destiny of an individual and um, the destiny of an individual and um, the destiny of an individual and also their relationship between heaven also their relationship between heaven also their relationship between heaven and earth. It's very It's Oh, wow. It's and earth. It's very It's Oh, wow. It's and earth. It's very It's Oh, wow. It's It's the old acupuncture in China. The It's the old acupuncture in China. The It's the old acupuncture in China. The communists didn't like it, of course, communists didn't like it, of course, communists didn't like it, of course, when it came in because they're all when it came in because they're all when it came in because they're all about There's no, you know, the about There's no, you know, the about There's no, you know, the individuality is subsumed to the individuality is subsumed to the individuality is subsumed to the >> Yeah, this is not serving the state. >> Yeah, this is not serving the state. >> Yeah, this is not serving the state. >> This is not serving the state. So, all >> This is not serving the state. So, all >> This is not serving the state. So, all the five elements practitioners got the five elements practitioners got the five elements practitioners got driven out to Taiwan. driven out to Taiwan. driven out to Taiwan. So, a lot of the old knowledge, all the So, a lot of the old knowledge, all the So, a lot of the old knowledge, all the old Daoist knowledge gets goes out to old Daoist knowledge gets goes out to old Daoist knowledge gets goes out to Taiwan. Taiwan. Taiwan. And And And there was a British man called J.R. there was a British man called J.R. there was a British man called J.R. Worsley who went over, I think, in the Worsley who went over, I think, in the Worsley who went over, I think, in the '50s or '60s and he brought the old form '50s or '60s and he brought the old form '50s or '60s and he brought the old form 50 He brought five elements acupuncture 50 He brought five elements acupuncture 50 He brought five elements acupuncture to the UK and actually, interestingly, to the UK and actually, interestingly, to the UK and actually, interestingly, to America. to America. to America. And it's different from TCM, traditional And it's different from TCM, traditional And it's different from TCM, traditional Chinese medicine is fabulous, you know, Chinese medicine is fabulous, you know, Chinese medicine is fabulous, you know, you put a but it's all about you put a you put a but it's all about you put a you put a but it's all about you put a you put a needle in there, you put a needle in there, you put a needle in there, fix your kidneys, you know, it's very fix your kidneys, you know, it's very fix your kidneys, you know, it's very it's very utilitarian. it's very utilitarian. it's very utilitarian. This is philosophical, it's spiritual. This is philosophical, it's spiritual. This is philosophical, it's spiritual. So, that was tremendously helpful So, that was tremendously helpful So, that was tremendously helpful because I would go and see him every because I would go and see him every because I would go and see him every 4 weeks 4 weeks 4 weeks and you talk for half an hour cuz he's and you talk for half an hour cuz he's and you talk for half an hour cuz he's established, so how are you? So, there's established, so how are you? So, there's established, so how are you? So, there's the there's a therapeutic, but what was the there's a therapeutic, but what was the there's a therapeutic, but what was great, it was great, it was great, it was it went more than therapy because I it went more than therapy because I it went more than therapy because I okay, I'm going to hit some points here okay, I'm going to hit some points here okay, I'm going to hit some points here and they were and they were and they were very beautiful names like very beautiful names like very beautiful names like heaven's gate or heaven's gate or heaven's gate or and I found it and I found it and I found it profoundly profoundly profoundly powerful. powerful. powerful. So, that helped shift So, that helped shift So, that helped shift um stuff. um stuff. um stuff. But, I just think being still But, I just think being still But, I just think being still I think I've been lived had such a I think I've been lived had such a I think I've been lived had such a busy life and a lot of that was as I say busy life and a lot of that was as I say busy life and a lot of that was as I say running from the ghosts of my past. I running from the ghosts of my past. I running from the ghosts of my past. I There was a reason I was busy. There was a reason I was busy. There was a reason I was busy. >> We had talked previously and you you had >> We had talked previously and you you had >> We had talked previously and you you had mentioned that you came across Gabor mentioned that you came across Gabor mentioned that you came across Gabor Mate's work and Mate's work and Mate's work and >> amazing. >> amazing. >> amazing. >> this >> this >> this epiphany that perhaps there's something epiphany that perhaps there's something epiphany that perhaps there's something in your childhood [snorts] in your childhood [snorts] in your childhood [snorts] that needs a little bit of excavation in that needs a little bit of excavation in that needs a little bit of excavation in order for you to uh order for you to uh order for you to uh >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> make peace with yourself. >> make peace with yourself. >> make peace with yourself. >> Yeah, I mean it is it again >> Yeah, I mean it is it again >> Yeah, I mean it is it again I was reading this book I was reading this book I was reading this book in at the start of this having fallen in at the start of this having fallen in at the start of this having fallen into this hole into this hole into this hole and this book was exactly what I needed. and this book was exactly what I needed. and this book was exactly what I needed. The universe provided me. Susie said, "I The universe provided me. Susie said, "I The universe provided me. Susie said, "I think you should read this book when the think you should read this book when the think you should read this book when the body says no." body says no." body says no." And I was reading it And I was reading it And I was reading it and and and you know, it's essentially you know, it's essentially you know, it's essentially he noticed in private practice that that he noticed in private practice that that he noticed in private practice that that a lot of people with autoimmune diseases a lot of people with autoimmune diseases a lot of people with autoimmune diseases and cancers and addictions and cancers and addictions and cancers and addictions where's the source of the of of this? where's the source of the of of this? where's the source of the of of this? It's all in childhood. And he said it He It's all in childhood. And he said it He It's all in childhood. And he said it He said it's all in childhood. And said it's all in childhood. And said it's all in childhood. And and he does that beautiful thing that and he does that beautiful thing that and he does that beautiful thing that somebody who's very learned, and you you somebody who's very learned, and you you somebody who's very learned, and you you know they're speaking a truth, it seems know they're speaking a truth, it seems know they're speaking a truth, it seems really simple. And And I was reading really simple. And And I was reading really simple. And And I was reading this, and he was giving examples of this, and he was giving examples of this, and he was giving examples of case studies. case studies. case studies. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And talking about the trauma of the >> And talking about the trauma of the >> And talking about the trauma of the child. And I was reading this, and I'm child. And I was reading this, and I'm child. And I was reading this, and I'm going, going, going, I said, I said, I said, "Well, that's like my childhood." And "Well, that's like my childhood." And "Well, that's like my childhood." And I'd never allowed myself to go I'd never allowed myself to go I'd never allowed myself to go my child I'd never allowed myself to use my child I'd never allowed myself to use my child I'd never allowed myself to use that word trauma, right? It feels like that word trauma, right? It feels like that word trauma, right? It feels like such a heavy word. Trauma was something such a heavy word. Trauma was something such a heavy word. Trauma was something that was that was that was I you know, if if like Gabor Maté, for I you know, if if like Gabor Maté, for I you know, if if like Gabor Maté, for instance, his instance, his instance, his his uh parents and his grandparents his uh parents and his grandparents his uh parents and his grandparents were in concentration camps. were in concentration camps. were in concentration camps. That felt to me like trauma. That's a That felt to me like trauma. That's a That felt to me like trauma. That's a level of hurt and trauma that So, I level of hurt and trauma that So, I level of hurt and trauma that So, I wasn't allowing myself. I'd go, "Well, wasn't allowing myself. I'd go, "Well, wasn't allowing myself. I'd go, "Well, you know, you know, you know, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> yeah, it was a bit [ __ ] but, you know, >> yeah, it was a bit [ __ ] but, you know, >> yeah, it was a bit [ __ ] but, you know, in that classic way. But what I realized in that classic way. But what I realized in that classic way. But what I realized I'd done was, I think in order to I'd done was, I think in order to I'd done was, I think in order to cope with it, cope with it, cope with it, and I've got obviously like, you know, and I've got obviously like, you know, and I've got obviously like, you know, Gen X in Britain, Gen X in Britain, Gen X in Britain, no one None of us None of us processed no one None of us None of us processed no one None of us None of us processed anything. We had all this stuff, you anything. We had all this stuff, you anything. We had all this stuff, you should be like this, and and all this should be like this, and and all this should be like this, and and all this kind of some pretty nasty stuff could kind of some pretty nasty stuff could kind of some pretty nasty stuff could happen, happen, happen, but we weren't listened to, and that's but we weren't listened to, and that's but we weren't listened to, and that's just a That's just how it was. just a That's just how it was. just a That's just how it was. And so, And so, And so, it makes for very good humor. I mean, I it makes for very good humor. I mean, I it makes for very good humor. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons the think that's one of the reasons the think that's one of the reasons the British have a kind of quite dry and British have a kind of quite dry and British have a kind of quite dry and sarcastic humor, cuz sarcastic humor, cuz sarcastic humor, cuz >> with it. >> with it. >> with it. >> Well, it's that line in um >> Well, it's that line in um >> Well, it's that line in um uh Cri- Is it Crimes and Misdemeanors? uh Cri- Is it Crimes and Misdemeanors? uh Cri- Is it Crimes and Misdemeanors? Is it the the the the humor is tragedy Is it the the the the humor is tragedy Is it the the the the humor is tragedy plus time? plus time? plus time? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> If it bends, it's >> If it bends, it's >> If it bends, it's If it bends, it's funny. If it breaks, If it bends, it's funny. If it breaks, If it bends, it's funny. If it breaks, it's not funny. So, it's not funny. So, it's not funny. So, >> Tragedy plus time equals comedy. >> Tragedy plus time equals comedy. >> Tragedy plus time equals comedy. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> So, I think that's why the you know you >> So, I think that's why the you know you >> So, I think that's why the you know you look at Monty Python and you know that look at Monty Python and you know that look at Monty Python and you know that that that there'll be a lot of trauma that that there'll be a lot of trauma that that there'll be a lot of trauma that those childhoods and just the that those childhoods and just the that those childhoods and just the British way very zipped up and very you British way very zipped up and very you British way very zipped up and very you know Americans can see it you can see know Americans can see it you can see know Americans can see it you can see what we we're like as a nation. what we we're like as a nation. what we we're like as a nation. Um Um Um >> But it feels indulgent >> But it feels indulgent >> But it feels indulgent to think that if your childhood isn't to think that if your childhood isn't to think that if your childhood isn't you know completely insane that you you know completely insane that you you know completely insane that you would characterize it as being would characterize it as being would characterize it as being traumatic. You know what I mean? And so traumatic. You know what I mean? And so traumatic. You know what I mean? And so >> terrible. >> terrible. >> terrible. >> like oh come on >> like oh come on >> like oh come on >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> It wasn't really that bad. >> It wasn't really that bad. >> It wasn't really that bad. >> that bad. >> that bad. >> that bad. >> But that then prevents you from really >> But that then prevents you from really >> But that then prevents you from really kind of performing an autopsy on kind of performing an autopsy on kind of performing an autopsy on whatever emotional needs went unmet that whatever emotional needs went unmet that whatever emotional needs went unmet that show up later in life and create these show up later in life and create these show up later in life and create these narratives about you know It stops you narratives about you know It stops you narratives about you know It stops you from healing you are in your inner from healing you are in your inner from healing you are in your inner monologue and all of that. monologue and all of that. monologue and all of that. >> Yeah, it stops you from healing. >> Yeah, it stops you from healing. >> Yeah, it stops you from healing. And and and that's the thing it was And and and that's the thing it was And and and that's the thing it was exactly that it felt very indulgent. I'm exactly that it felt very indulgent. I'm exactly that it felt very indulgent. I'm not like that I'm a rocker but but but not like that I'm a rocker but but but not like that I'm a rocker but but but my body was just saying enough. And my body was just saying enough. And my body was just saying enough. And that's somebody saying you have to that's somebody saying you have to that's somebody saying you have to process this stuff because I also had a process this stuff because I also had a process this stuff because I also had a sense before this that the way I was sense before this that the way I was sense before this that the way I was being was sort of unsustainable. I was being was sort of unsustainable. I was being was sort of unsustainable. I was using using using profound amounts of energy to see a day profound amounts of energy to see a day profound amounts of energy to see a day through or see a project through and I through or see a project through and I through or see a project through and I knew that in the medium of music knew that in the medium of music knew that in the medium of music I had this innate sense music shouldn't I had this innate sense music shouldn't I had this innate sense music shouldn't be like a struggle. It should be a flow. be like a struggle. It should be a flow. be like a struggle. It should be a flow. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And >> And >> And and that's what I found subsequently and that's what I found subsequently and that's what I found subsequently about all of it. Life is a flow. When about all of it. Life is a flow. When about all of it. Life is a flow. When once you've once you've once you've once you process stuff and once you once once you process stuff and once you once once you process stuff and once you once you're becoming whole you're becoming whole you're becoming whole you're not using colossal amounts of you're not using colossal amounts of you're not using colossal amounts of energy just to to make things happen. I energy just to to make things happen. I energy just to to make things happen. I felt like I was carrying felt like I was carrying felt like I was carrying a weight every day that was weighing me a weight every day that was weighing me a weight every day that was weighing me down. It was very very very physical. down. It was very very very physical. down. It was very very very physical. I mean part of the process of this is I I mean part of the process of this is I I mean part of the process of this is I think it's so interesting how it think it's so interesting how it think it's so interesting how it manifests itself in the body. manifests itself in the body. manifests itself in the body. >> What's the operative story that's >> What's the operative story that's >> What's the operative story that's running in the background that is running in the background that is running in the background that is motivating you to push and be hard and motivating you to push and be hard and motivating you to push and be hard and have that burdened kind of relationship have that burdened kind of relationship have that burdened kind of relationship with the world and your work. with the world and your work. with the world and your work. >> I had a relentless >> I had a relentless >> I had a relentless I was never satisfied I was never satisfied I was never satisfied with with with what I'd done. So, Jared, who's the what I'd done. So, Jared, who's the what I'd done. So, Jared, who's the the the my five elements acupuncture the the my five elements acupuncture the the my five elements acupuncture uh practitioner, he's the kind of he's uh practitioner, he's the kind of he's uh practitioner, he's the kind of he's the top guy in the UK. He said to me the top guy in the UK. He said to me the top guy in the UK. He said to me when I went back to see him and I was in when I went back to see him and I was in when I went back to see him and I was in this period of darkness and he said this period of darkness and he said this period of darkness and he said he said, "Are you happy with what you've he said, "Are you happy with what you've he said, "Are you happy with what you've uh you've achieved?" uh you've achieved?" uh you've achieved?" So, we're talking 2021. So, we're talking 2021. So, we're talking 2021. And And And it required supreme honesty. If anyone it required supreme honesty. If anyone it required supreme honesty. If anyone else had asked me that in a I'd have else had asked me that in a I'd have else had asked me that in a I'd have gone to course. It's I mean, it's gone to course. It's I mean, it's gone to course. It's I mean, it's amazing. I'm the most blessed and I knew amazing. I'm the most blessed and I knew amazing. I'm the most blessed and I knew that. that. that. But I didn't feel it and I said to But I didn't feel it and I said to But I didn't feel it and I said to myself, myself, myself, "No, I don't." "No, I don't." "No, I don't." And he said, "Don't you think that's And he said, "Don't you think that's And he said, "Don't you think that's crazy?" I said, "Yeah, and I said, "I crazy?" I said, "Yeah, and I said, "I crazy?" I said, "Yeah, and I said, "I know it's crazy. You know, that's why know it's crazy. You know, that's why know it's crazy. You know, that's why when someone asked me that or or a when someone asked me that or or a when someone asked me that or or a journalist, you go, 'Yes, of course it's journalist, you go, 'Yes, of course it's journalist, you go, 'Yes, of course it's extraordinary.' I know that I've had the extraordinary.' I know that I've had the extraordinary.' I know that I've had the most most most blessed experience on my blessed experience on my blessed experience on my creative life. It doesn't get better. If creative life. It doesn't get better. If creative life. It doesn't get better. If you want to be in a band from the '90s, you want to be in a band from the '90s, you want to be in a band from the '90s, yeah, it doesn't get better than being yeah, it doesn't get better than being yeah, it doesn't get better than being in Radiohead, right? And if he'd said to in Radiohead, right? And if he'd said to in Radiohead, right? And if he'd said to my 16-year-old self, 'This is going to my 16-year-old self, 'This is going to my 16-year-old self, 'This is going to be what your life I really like be what your life I really like be what your life I really like wow. It's And it is extraordinary, but I wow. It's And it is extraordinary, but I wow. It's And it is extraordinary, but I didn't feel it and that was all didn't feel it and that was all didn't feel it and that was all self-worth and and and the way that we self-worth and and and the way that we self-worth and and and the way that we were were were just the way that people talked to you just the way that people talked to you just the way that people talked to you as a young child. You know, I I had a I as a young child. You know, I I had a I as a young child. You know, I I had a I had an epiphany in had an epiphany in had an epiphany in sort of three-quarters way through this. sort of three-quarters way through this. sort of three-quarters way through this. I was meditating and I was meditating and I was meditating and this thing came up in my mind and I this thing came up in my mind and I this thing came up in my mind and I spoken quite a lot about this. My I my spoken quite a lot about this. My I my spoken quite a lot about this. My I my report, like a lot of kids' reports, report, like a lot of kids' reports, report, like a lot of kids' reports, said, "Could do better." said, "Could do better." said, "Could do better." Yeah. And I realized that Yeah. And I realized that Yeah. And I realized that oh my god, that's that that those those oh my god, that's that that those those oh my god, that's that that those those >> Tattooed on your brain. >> Tattooed on your brain. >> Tattooed on your brain. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Those three words stopped me sitting >> Those three words stopped me sitting >> Those three words stopped me sitting back and going, "Wow, back and going, "Wow, back and going, "Wow, this is great." Because it says, "You this is great." Because it says, "You this is great." Because it says, "You cannot enjoy this. You've got to keep cannot enjoy this. You've got to keep cannot enjoy this. You've got to keep doing. You've got to do And it's doing. You've got to do And it's doing. You've got to do And it's relentless. It's exhausting. It's not relentless. It's exhausting. It's not relentless. It's exhausting. It's not sustainable. sustainable. sustainable. >> The the idea that the guy from Radiohead >> The the idea that the guy from Radiohead >> The the idea that the guy from Radiohead is going to complain about not being is going to complain about not being is going to complain about not being happy, you know, nobody wants to hear happy, you know, nobody wants to hear happy, you know, nobody wants to hear that. that. that. >> No. >> If you're a creator or even just someone >> If you're a creator or even just someone with an idea, building something online with an idea, building something online with an idea, building something online has probably crossed your mind. A blog, has probably crossed your mind. A blog, has probably crossed your mind. A blog, a podcast, or of course, a podcast, or of course, a podcast, or of course, or maybe even a membership community. or maybe even a membership community. or maybe even a membership community. But, where to begin? I'm not a designer. But, where to begin? I'm not a designer. But, where to begin? I'm not a designer. I don't know how to build a website. I don't know how to build a website. I don't know how to build a website. [music] I can't afford to pay someone [music] I can't afford to pay someone [music] I can't afford to pay someone else to do it all for me. Forget about else to do it all for me. Forget about else to do it all for me. Forget about all that, says Squarespace. Take a seat. all that, says Squarespace. Take a seat. all that, says Squarespace. Take a seat. Relax. I got you. Because I, Relax. I got you. Because I, Relax. I got you. Because I, Squarespace, am an all-in-one platform Squarespace, am an all-in-one platform Squarespace, am an all-in-one platform that takes all the complexity and that takes all the complexity and that takes all the complexity and unaffordable cost out of building a unaffordable cost out of building a unaffordable cost out of building a beautiful website. Their design tools beautiful website. Their design tools beautiful website. Their design tools are especially powerful. You can start are especially powerful. You can start are especially powerful. You can start with professionally designed templates with professionally designed templates with professionally designed templates and customize everything with intuitive and customize everything with intuitive and customize everything with intuitive editing tools, so your site actually editing tools, so your site actually editing tools, so your site actually reflects your voice and your brand. reflects your voice and your brand. reflects your voice and your brand. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> And if you create content, videos, >> And if you create content, videos, >> And if you create content, videos, articles, courses, Squarespace makes it articles, courses, Squarespace makes it articles, courses, Squarespace makes it easy to organize everything into a easy to organize everything into a easy to organize everything into a polished library and even put premium polished library and even put premium polished library and even put premium content behind a paywall to create content behind a paywall to create content behind a paywall to create recurring revenue. [music] recurring revenue. [music] recurring revenue. [music] Plus, you can stay connected with your Plus, you can stay connected with your Plus, you can stay connected with your audience using built-in email campaigns audience using built-in email campaigns audience using built-in email campaigns that look just as good as your site. that look just as good as your site. that look just as good as your site. Head to squarespace.com/richroll Head to squarespace.com/richroll Head to squarespace.com/richroll for a free trial, and when you're ready for a free trial, and when you're ready for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, use offer code richroll to to launch, use offer code richroll to to launch, use offer code richroll to save 10% off your first purchase of a save 10% off your first purchase of a save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. website or domain. website or domain. If you're close to making a switch to an If you're close to making a switch to an If you're close to making a switch to an electric vehicle, you probably have a electric vehicle, you probably have a electric vehicle, you probably have a few lingering questions. And they're few lingering questions. And they're few lingering questions. And they're probably about things like charging, probably about things like charging, probably about things like charging, range, how this actually fits into your range, how this actually fits into your range, how this actually fits into your day-to-day life. I I being right there, day-to-day life. I I being right there, day-to-day life. I I being right there, and what surprised me most is how and what surprised me most is how and what surprised me most is how quickly those concerns don't just get quickly those concerns don't just get quickly those concerns don't just get answered, they just disappear. Because answered, they just disappear. Because answered, they just disappear. Because charging becomes something you do at charging becomes something you do at charging becomes something you do at home, you plug in at night, and in the home, you plug in at night, and in the home, you plug in at night, and in the morning you're just ready. No detours, morning you're just ready. No detours, morning you're just ready. No detours, no stops. With a Rivian, you have more no stops. With a Rivian, you have more no stops. With a Rivian, you have more than enough range for everyday driving. than enough range for everyday driving. than enough range for everyday driving. And for road trips, the vehicle handles And for road trips, the vehicle handles And for road trips, the vehicle handles the planning, maps your route, and tells the planning, maps your route, and tells the planning, maps your route, and tells you exactly when and where to charge. you exactly when and where to charge. you exactly when and where to charge. [music] [music] [music] And then there's everything else that And then there's everything else that And then there's everything else that quietly fades away. Gas stations, oil quietly fades away. Gas stations, oil quietly fades away. Gas stations, oil changes, all the little maintenance changes, all the little maintenance changes, all the little maintenance things that used to take up time and things that used to take up time and things that used to take up time and attention. It's not that you adjust to attention. It's not that you adjust to attention. It's not that you adjust to it, it's just that life gets simpler. it, it's just that life gets simpler. it, it's just that life gets simpler. And once you experience that, it's hard And once you experience that, it's hard And once you experience that, it's hard to imagine going back. Learn more and to imagine going back. Learn more and to imagine going back. Learn more and schedule a demo drive near you at schedule a demo drive near you at schedule a demo drive near you at rivian.com. Some days are just better than others. Some days are just better than others. Sometimes you [music] eat well, but Sometimes you [music] eat well, but Sometimes you [music] eat well, but sleep poorly. Or maybe you sleep great, sleep poorly. Or maybe you sleep great, sleep poorly. Or maybe you sleep great, but confusingly end up foggy-brained. but confusingly end up foggy-brained. but confusingly end up foggy-brained. Then, every once in a while, everything Then, every once in a while, everything Then, every once in a while, everything is just [music] right. And what Whoop is just [music] right. And what Whoop is just [music] right. And what Whoop does is help turn those dialed-in days does is help turn those dialed-in days does is help turn those dialed-in days from occasional into frequent. Because from occasional into frequent. Because from occasional into frequent. Because it's the wearable health and fitness it's the wearable health and fitness it's the wearable health and fitness coach that provides you with coach that provides you with coach that provides you with personalized insights into your sleep, personalized insights into your sleep, personalized insights into your sleep, into your [music] recovery, and your into your [music] recovery, and your into your [music] recovery, and your strain, and overall health. So, you can strain, and overall health. So, you can strain, and overall health. So, you can actually see how your habits are shaping actually see how your habits are shaping actually see how your habits are shaping how you feel. [music] Whoop helps me how you feel. [music] Whoop helps me how you feel. [music] Whoop helps me spot patterns, so I can make adjustments spot patterns, so I can make adjustments spot patterns, so I can make adjustments in real time to my training, of course, in real time to my training, of course, in real time to my training, of course, but also to my work schedule, to what I but also to my work schedule, to what I but also to my work schedule, to what I eat and when I eat, eat and when I eat, eat and when I eat, >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> what time I go to bed, and what time I >> what time I go to bed, and what time I >> what time I go to bed, and what time I wake up. This is why Whoop has been wake up. This is why Whoop has been wake up. This is why Whoop has been affixed to my left wrist right here for affixed to my left wrist right here for affixed to my left wrist right here for 6 and 1/2 years [music] straight. 6 and 1/2 years [music] straight. 6 and 1/2 years [music] straight. Because it just retires the need to Because it just retires the need to Because it just retires the need to guess, and allows me to make decisions guess, and allows me to make decisions guess, and allows me to make decisions with more intention. As you can probably with more intention. As you can probably with more intention. As you can probably tell, I am very bullish on Whoop. But tell, I am very bullish on Whoop. But tell, I am very bullish on Whoop. But hey, listen, look into it for yourself. hey, listen, look into it for yourself. hey, listen, look into it for yourself. [music] [music] [music] For more info and to sign up, go to For more info and to sign up, go to For more info and to sign up, go to join.whoop.com/roll join.whoop.com/roll join.whoop.com/roll for 1 month free of Whoop. You have this You have this animating force that's telling you animating force that's telling you animating force that's telling you you're not enough. You got to push you're not enough. You got to push you're not enough. You got to push harder. You have to always be, you know, harder. You have to always be, you know, harder. You have to always be, you know, going the extra mile in order to earn going the extra mile in order to earn going the extra mile in order to earn love and acceptance and and feel worthy love and acceptance and and feel worthy love and acceptance and and feel worthy of of of not just being in this band, but but but not just being in this band, but but but not just being in this band, but but but being alive and that leads to this lack being alive and that leads to this lack being alive and that leads to this lack of satisfaction. of satisfaction. of satisfaction. But not for nothing, But not for nothing, But not for nothing, it's got to feel at times it's got to feel at times it's got to feel at times quite heavy and burdensome to be in a quite heavy and burdensome to be in a quite heavy and burdensome to be in a band like Radiohead that is so revered. band like Radiohead that is so revered. band like Radiohead that is so revered. I mean, this band is so iconic. It's I mean, this band is so iconic. It's I mean, this band is so iconic. It's almost like a religion for people. And almost like a religion for people. And almost like a religion for people. And to have to to have to to have to carry that around is so loaded with carry that around is so loaded with carry that around is so loaded with expectations on how you're showing up to expectations on how you're showing up to expectations on how you're showing up to to fulfill that that that promise with to fulfill that that that promise with to fulfill that that that promise with the legion of of fans all over the the legion of of fans all over the the legion of of fans all over the world. I mean, how do you how do you world. I mean, how do you how do you world. I mean, how do you how do you carry that? How does that feel inside carry that? How does that feel inside carry that? How does that feel inside you? you? you? >> I I It's interesting uh it it's I don't >> I I It's interesting uh it it's I don't >> I I It's interesting uh it it's I don't feel that at all. Like my son said to feel that at all. Like my son said to feel that at all. Like my son said to me, cuz I I don't I It doesn't register me, cuz I I don't I It doesn't register me, cuz I I don't I It doesn't register with me at all that. My son said to me with me at all that. My son said to me with me at all that. My son said to me when we did these shows last last year, when we did these shows last last year, when we did these shows last last year, he said, he said, he said, "Dad, I don't think you realize how big "Dad, I don't think you realize how big "Dad, I don't think you realize how big Radiohead are." And I go, Radiohead are." And I go, Radiohead are." And I go, "I think you're right." I "I think you're right." I "I think you're right." I I I have I I have I I have >> They're pretty big. >> They're pretty big. >> They're pretty big. >> Yeah. And >> Yeah. And >> Yeah. And yeah, and but I've got yeah, and but I've got yeah, and but I've got no no no >> Cuz you're in it, you don't have that >> Cuz you're in it, you don't have that >> Cuz you're in it, you don't have that perspective. perspective. perspective. >> Yeah, and my life is, you know, my life >> Yeah, and my life is, you know, my life >> Yeah, and my life is, you know, my life is as soon as the kids were born, that is as soon as the kids were born, that is as soon as the kids were born, that becomes like becomes like becomes like if I if I That becomes a central part of if I if I That becomes a central part of if I if I That becomes a central part of my life. That's the most the most my life. That's the most the most my life. That's the most the most important thing in my life. And important thing in my life. And important thing in my life. And everything else gets And the Now, if I everything else gets And the Now, if I everything else gets And the Now, if I hadn't had kids and I'd stayed into that hadn't had kids and I'd stayed into that hadn't had kids and I'd stayed into that bubble and, you know, I think that would bubble and, you know, I think that would bubble and, you know, I think that would have happened, but because have happened, but because have happened, but because kids don't give a [ __ ] and kids don't give a [ __ ] and kids don't give a [ __ ] and and I loved being a dad. I I I think and I loved being a dad. I I I think and I loved being a dad. I I I think when Sal was born, when Salvador was when Sal was born, when Salvador was when Sal was born, when Salvador was born, born, born, I had a sense of I had a sense of I had a sense of this is my purpose. this is my purpose. this is my purpose. This felt more real and more powerful This felt more real and more powerful This felt more real and more powerful and deeper than anything I'd ever had. and deeper than anything I'd ever had. and deeper than anything I'd ever had. And I remember the day after he was born And I remember the day after he was born And I remember the day after he was born at home, at home, at home, and uh and uh and uh we'd set up a birthing pool in the we'd set up a birthing pool in the we'd set up a birthing pool in the sitting room, and sitting room, and sitting room, and and uh and uh and uh and the next day, and the next day, and the next day, so Sal, we had an enormous bed, and Sal, so Sal, we had an enormous bed, and Sal, so Sal, we had an enormous bed, and Sal, for the first year, slept in our bed for the first year, slept in our bed for the first year, slept in our bed between Susie and myself. It was so between Susie and myself. It was so between Susie and myself. It was so beautiful. beautiful. beautiful. And Susie didn't get out of bed for 14 And Susie didn't get out of bed for 14 And Susie didn't get out of bed for 14 days with this whole thing, very much days with this whole thing, very much days with this whole thing, very much very much subscribed and influenced by very much subscribed and influenced by very much subscribed and influenced by the whole continuum concept. the whole continuum concept. the whole continuum concept. And so the And so the And so the mother and child, Susie and Sal were mother and child, Susie and Sal were mother and child, Susie and Sal were asleep, and I was clearing I mean, it asleep, and I was clearing I mean, it asleep, and I was clearing I mean, it was just like a bomb site. I was getting was just like a bomb site. I was getting was just like a bomb site. I was getting rid of this huge amounts of water that rid of this huge amounts of water that rid of this huge amounts of water that had had had you know, it had it had all the all the you know, it had it had all the all the you know, it had it had all the all the stuff from a birth, and stuff from a birth, and stuff from a birth, and and I remember I felt like I had this and I remember I felt like I had this and I remember I felt like I had this moment. I was like, and I was so like, moment. I was like, and I was so like, moment. I was like, and I was so like, this is my job. I found my role. So, this is my job. I found my role. So, this is my job. I found my role. So, that stopped me from being in kind of being in kind of Radiohead land. And I'm pretty private. Radiohead land. And I'm pretty private. Radiohead land. And I'm pretty private. I've never liked I've always felt deeply I've never liked I've always felt deeply I've never liked I've always felt deeply uncomfortable uncomfortable uncomfortable on the more public aspect of, you know, on the more public aspect of, you know, on the more public aspect of, you know, if we do an awards ceremony, or we go if we do an awards ceremony, or we go if we do an awards ceremony, or we go out en masse. I love the gigs. I love out en masse. I love the gigs. I love out en masse. I love the gigs. I love love love love love those shows, cuz love love love love those shows, cuz love love love love those shows, cuz there's a con But the the more the the there's a con But the the more the the there's a con But the the more the the other stuff, I always sort of other stuff, I always sort of other stuff, I always sort of sort of was able to So, I did sort of was able to So, I did sort of was able to So, I did that question you asked me doesn't that question you asked me doesn't that question you asked me doesn't really register with me, cuz I didn't really register with me, cuz I didn't really register with me, cuz I didn't really carry that with me. And I kind of really carry that with me. And I kind of really carry that with me. And I kind of like that, because the other thing is like that, because the other thing is like that, because the other thing is that I Again, I realized that at very that I Again, I realized that at very that I Again, I realized that at very early. I remember it was early. I remember it was early. I remember it was uh around the time of OK Computer, and I uh around the time of OK Computer, and I uh around the time of OK Computer, and I was a single guy, was a single guy, was a single guy, and I was at a party, and I was at a party, and I was at a party, and I was having a conversation with and I was having a conversation with and I was having a conversation with this girl, and we were getting on really this girl, and we were getting on really this girl, and we were getting on really well. I was like, she's lovely and she's well. I was like, she's lovely and she's well. I was like, she's lovely and she's liking me and liking me and liking me and and then she said um she said, "What do and then she said um she said, "What do and then she said um she said, "What do you do?" you do?" you do?" And up until then I'd been really And up until then I'd been really And up until then I'd been really honest. I said, "I'm in this band and honest. I said, "I'm in this band and honest. I said, "I'm in this band and you know." And I said and and in before you know." And I said and and in before you know." And I said and and in before that the previous five years you go "in that the previous five years you go "in that the previous five years you go "in radio" they go, "Oh yeah, Creep, right?" radio" they go, "Oh yeah, Creep, right?" radio" they go, "Oh yeah, Creep, right?" You go, "Yeah." And there was a You go, "Yeah." And there was a You go, "Yeah." And there was a And this is OK Computer being out for 3 And this is OK Computer being out for 3 And this is OK Computer being out for 3 months. And she said, "What do you do?" months. And she said, "What do you do?" months. And she said, "What do you do?" And I said, "I'm in a band." She said, And I said, "I'm in a band." She said, And I said, "I'm in a band." She said, "What's that?" She said, "Radiohead." "What's that?" She said, "Radiohead." "What's that?" She said, "Radiohead." And it was bizarre and it completely And it was bizarre and it completely And it was bizarre and it completely >> changed, yeah. >> changed, yeah. >> changed, yeah. >> changed the connection. And we were >> changed the connection. And we were >> changed the connection. And we were getting on well and I thought getting on well and I thought getting on well and I thought >> And then she freaked out. >> And then she freaked out. >> And then she freaked out. >> to freak out. Yeah, I was just like >> to freak out. Yeah, I was just like >> to freak out. Yeah, I was just like [laughter] I was just like [laughter] I was just like [laughter] I was just like oh I I I you see oh I I I you see oh I I I you see you see which I I one of the things I you see which I I one of the things I you see which I I one of the things I realized in this whole realized in this whole realized in this whole >> But it took until OK Computer for that >> But it took until OK Computer for that >> But it took until OK Computer for that to happen. to happen. to happen. >> Yeah, exactly. And suddenly you're on >> Yeah, exactly. And suddenly you're on >> Yeah, exactly. And suddenly you're on another level. But I've always one of my another level. But I've always one of my another level. But I've always one of my things is I love things is I love things is I love talking to people. I grew up. So my talking to people. I grew up. So my talking to people. I grew up. So my parents my grandparents were osteopaths. parents my grandparents were osteopaths. parents my grandparents were osteopaths. And they had their practice on the And they had their practice on the And they had their practice on the ground floor of this big Oxford house. ground floor of this big Oxford house. ground floor of this big Oxford house. So there were there were five rooms So there were there were five rooms So there were there were five rooms and there was a big waiting room with and there was a big waiting room with and there was a big waiting room with lots of patients waiting to be treated. lots of patients waiting to be treated. lots of patients waiting to be treated. I would just wander down as a toddler, I would just wander down as a toddler, I would just wander down as a toddler, 2-year-old, and just talk to people, 2-year-old, and just talk to people, 2-year-old, and just talk to people, old, young. So for for I've always loved old, young. So for for I've always loved old, young. So for for I've always loved I've always been interested in other I've always been interested in other I've always been interested in other people and and and just talking to people and and and just talking to people and and and just talking to people. So people. So people. So you have to the Radiohead stuff has to you have to the Radiohead stuff has to you have to the Radiohead stuff has to be worn lightly if you're going to make be worn lightly if you're going to make be worn lightly if you're going to make connections to people. I'm interested in connections to people. I'm interested in connections to people. I'm interested in that. I'm interested in that. I'm interested in that. I'm interested in I don't know. I'm I I I I like I'm I don't know. I'm I I I I like I'm I don't know. I'm I I I I like I'm interested in people. I'm interested in people. I'm interested in people. I'm you know. you know. you know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. What's interesting to me about that is What's interesting to me about that is What's interesting to me about that is you know, knowing you a little bit from you know, knowing you a little bit from you know, knowing you a little bit from the time we spent in Austin the time we spent in Austin the time we spent in Austin there's a healthy part to that. This there's a healthy part to that. This there's a healthy part to that. This idea like I'm not comfortable with all idea like I'm not comfortable with all idea like I'm not comfortable with all the hullabaloo. Like I know what my the hullabaloo. Like I know what my the hullabaloo. Like I know what my priorities are. I understand what's priorities are. I understand what's priorities are. I understand what's really important. But the flip side of really important. But the flip side of really important. But the flip side of that coin that coin that coin is is is is motivated by something different. is motivated by something different. is motivated by something different. Like, there is a discomfort Like, there is a discomfort Like, there is a discomfort uh within you around uh within you around uh within you around worthiness. And, you know, we talked worthiness. And, you know, we talked worthiness. And, you know, we talked about this last time like, you're very about this last time like, you're very about this last time like, you're very comfortable kind of being in the comfortable kind of being in the comfortable kind of being in the background in Radiohead. Like, you background in Radiohead. Like, you background in Radiohead. Like, you create the soundscapes. You're literally create the soundscapes. You're literally create the soundscapes. You're literally responsible for the sound that we responsible for the sound that we responsible for the sound that we identify as being Radiohead. identify as being Radiohead. identify as being Radiohead. But, your face is not as recognizable But, your face is not as recognizable But, your face is not as recognizable because you're not fronting the band. because you're not fronting the band. because you're not fronting the band. You're kind of in the back playing You're kind of in the back playing You're kind of in the back playing around with wires and plugging things in around with wires and plugging things in around with wires and plugging things in and and and >> working pedals and whatever it is that >> working pedals and whatever it is that >> working pedals and whatever it is that you do. you do. you do. >> And, >> And, >> And, this mental health journey that you've this mental health journey that you've this mental health journey that you've been on and this album that you just been on and this album that you just been on and this album that you just released, this hero's journey, released, this hero's journey, released, this hero's journey, isn't just about depression. It's about isn't just about depression. It's about isn't just about depression. It's about self-love and honoring your own artistic self-love and honoring your own artistic self-love and honoring your own artistic voice to get in front voice to get in front voice to get in front >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> more than you ever have and use your >> more than you ever have and use your >> more than you ever have and use your voice and be comfortable with that. voice and be comfortable with that. voice and be comfortable with that. Like, there is a very beautiful Like, there is a very beautiful Like, there is a very beautiful self-reverence in this work where you're self-reverence in this work where you're self-reverence in this work where you're honoring yourself maybe for the first honoring yourself maybe for the first honoring yourself maybe for the first time as an as an artist. And that is time as an as an artist. And that is time as an as an artist. And that is the consequence of this mental health the consequence of this mental health the consequence of this mental health hero's journey that you've been on, that hero's journey that you've been on, that hero's journey that you've been on, that you can be you can be you can be in the fullness of your creative in the fullness of your creative in the fullness of your creative expression. expression. expression. >> Yeah, I mean, >> Yeah, I mean, >> Yeah, I mean, it it's the process of it. It's it it's the process of it. It's it it's the process of it. It's interesting cuz it's I'm no longer interesting cuz it's I'm no longer interesting cuz it's I'm no longer hiding. hiding. hiding. I mean, it's that it's that thing and I mean, it's that it's that thing and I mean, it's that it's that thing and why was I You have to ask yourself, why why was I You have to ask yourself, why why was I You have to ask yourself, why was I hiding? was I hiding? was I hiding? Well, I was hiding because I had huge Well, I was hiding because I had huge Well, I was hiding because I had huge lack of self-worth, lack of self-worth, lack of self-worth, you know, you know, you know, and by the way, I you know, we were all and by the way, I you know, we were all and by the way, I you know, we were all responsible for the sound. It's really responsible for the sound. It's really responsible for the sound. It's really lovely of you to say that. I mean, I lovely of you to say that. I mean, I lovely of you to say that. I mean, I definitely played a part in that, but it definitely played a part in that, but it definitely played a part in that, but it it was a it was a collective thing. it was a it was a collective thing. it was a it was a collective thing. But, I But, I But, I I didn't feel comfortable being front I didn't feel comfortable being front I didn't feel comfortable being front and center and I and center and I and center and I I guess I was always hiding. And I think I guess I was always hiding. And I think I guess I was always hiding. And I think that thing that started in my childhood that thing that started in my childhood that thing that started in my childhood in that that sort of in that that sort of in that that sort of quite scary environment as a child. quite scary environment as a child. quite scary environment as a child. You know, is if you don't if you don't You know, is if you don't if you don't You know, is if you don't if you don't put your head above the parapet, you're put your head above the parapet, you're put your head above the parapet, you're not going to get hurt. not going to get hurt. not going to get hurt. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But what's so amazing about all of this? >> But what's so amazing about all of this? >> But what's so amazing about all of this? I mean, I essentially say that that that I mean, I essentially say that that that I mean, I essentially say that that that the healing journey is a journey of the the healing journey is a journey of the the healing journey is a journey of the truth is a journey of truth, right? And truth is a journey of truth, right? And truth is a journey of truth, right? And the truth sets you free. So, what I've the truth sets you free. So, what I've the truth sets you free. So, what I've found in this whole process, so you found in this whole process, so you found in this whole process, so you know, like the previous record I did know, like the previous record I did know, like the previous record I did solo, I was racked with like, can I do solo, I was racked with like, can I do solo, I was racked with like, can I do this? Body but I was deeply this? Body but I was deeply this? Body but I was deeply uncomfortable being that being that uncomfortable being that being that uncomfortable being that being that person on point. So, what do I do? I go person on point. So, what do I do? I go person on point. So, what do I do? I go out under my initials EOB. out under my initials EOB. out under my initials EOB. >> Yeah, you wouldn't even put your full >> Yeah, you wouldn't even put your full >> Yeah, you wouldn't even put your full name on it. name on it. name on it. >> Says everything. >> Says everything. >> Says everything. >> Like, you're kind of but it's a step. >> Like, you're kind of but it's a step. >> Like, you're kind of but it's a step. >> It's a step. >> It's a step. >> It's a step. >> You made a solo album, but you're still >> You made a solo album, but you're still >> You made a solo album, but you're still too uncomfortable to actually attach too uncomfortable to actually attach too uncomfortable to actually attach your name to it. your name to it. your name to it. >> But it's that thing, the truth sets you >> But it's that thing, the truth sets you >> But it's that thing, the truth sets you free and you you you I've been saying, free and you you you I've been saying, free and you you you I've been saying, I'm not fully there, but I'm definitely I'm not fully there, but I'm definitely I'm not fully there, but I'm definitely on the journey. on the journey. on the journey. I really don't care anymore because I really don't care anymore because I really don't care anymore because I cared so much before what people I cared so much before what people I cared so much before what people thought of me because I guess I wanted thought of me because I guess I wanted thought of me because I guess I wanted to be liked and loved. Why does somebody to be liked and loved. Why does somebody to be liked and loved. Why does somebody want to be liked and loved? Because they want to be liked and loved? Because they want to be liked and loved? Because they feel that there was a deficit of that feel that there was a deficit of that feel that there was a deficit of that there's a hole there. You know, it's a there's a hole there. You know, it's a there's a hole there. You know, it's a classic journey, right? classic journey, right? classic journey, right? So, once you So, once you So, once you learn about once you go to that dark learn about once you go to that dark learn about once you go to that dark place and the healing process is as you place and the healing process is as you place and the healing process is as you said is a process of self-love and said is a process of self-love and said is a process of self-love and going, I'm okay. going, I'm okay. going, I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm okay. You know, and then you feel it and then You know, and then you feel it and then You know, and then you feel it and then of course for me of course for me of course for me my connection with spirit for want of a my connection with spirit for want of a my connection with spirit for want of a better word, that's the thing that makes better word, that's the thing that makes better word, that's the thing that makes everything else everything else everything else I can handle anything in a way. I don't I can handle anything in a way. I don't I can handle anything in a way. I don't care what people think of me now. You care what people think of me now. You care what people think of me now. You know, that feeling that I have and I know, that feeling that I have and I know, that feeling that I have and I I think very much like Thoreau, you I think very much like Thoreau, you I think very much like Thoreau, you know, his writings and Walden that that know, his writings and Walden that that know, his writings and Walden that that when I'm in nature, that's my you know, when I'm in nature, that's my you know, when I'm in nature, that's my you know, when we're here. when we're here. when we're here. And if you were to leave me here all day And if you were to leave me here all day And if you were to leave me here all day and I'm wandering around and I've got a and I'm wandering around and I've got a and I'm wandering around and I've got a cup of tea and I can make some tea, good cup of tea and I can make some tea, good cup of tea and I can make some tea, good tea and tea and tea and hit hear the birds and see the see the hit hear the birds and see the see the hit hear the birds and see the see the creatures and creatures and creatures and you can say anything to me now and it's you can say anything to me now and it's you can say anything to me now and it's going to brush off me whereas before I'd going to brush off me whereas before I'd going to brush off me whereas before I'd be rocked by it but but it's that be rocked by it but but it's that be rocked by it but but it's that connection with spirit which is at the connection with spirit which is at the connection with spirit which is at the center now which is anchored in there. center now which is anchored in there. center now which is anchored in there. And that's the thing that I try to do on And that's the thing that I try to do on And that's the thing that I try to do on a daily basis to maintain that. If I a daily basis to maintain that. If I a daily basis to maintain that. If I don't have that center, that's the thing don't have that center, that's the thing don't have that center, that's the thing that knocks me and I do start caring. that knocks me and I do start caring. that knocks me and I do start caring. But that is the key thing and that was But that is the key thing and that was But that is the key thing and that was the thing that came to me in this dark the thing that came to me in this dark the thing that came to me in this dark night of the soul. It's like a you know, night of the soul. It's like a you know, night of the soul. It's like a you know, people use that beautiful word grace people use that beautiful word grace people use that beautiful word grace and and I can't explain it because I'm and and I can't explain it because I'm and and I can't explain it because I'm it's quite hard to explain for those who it's quite hard to explain for those who it's quite hard to explain for those who you know, I come from like I always say you know, I come from like I always say you know, I come from like I always say I come from Oxford which is one of the I come from Oxford which is one of the I come from Oxford which is one of the most cerebral places on the planet. most cerebral places on the planet. most cerebral places on the planet. They threw out spirits and God when they They threw out spirits and God when they They threw out spirits and God when they threw out religion and I understand the threw out religion and I understand the threw out religion and I understand the the casting aside of religion because the casting aside of religion because the casting aside of religion because it's it's it's you know, you know, you know, there are beautiful aspects of it but there are beautiful aspects of it but there are beautiful aspects of it but there's also controlling people which is there's also controlling people which is there's also controlling people which is and and the you know, and and the you know, and and the you know, but but but that thing is so part of my life now and that thing is so part of my life now and that thing is so part of my life now and has been and and and I think I've been has been and and and I think I've been has been and and and I think I've been seeking it for a long time like I I've seeking it for a long time like I I've seeking it for a long time like I I've been meditating for 20 years. I call been meditating for 20 years. I call been meditating for 20 years. I call myself the mongrel meditator. I taught myself the mongrel meditator. I taught myself the mongrel meditator. I taught myself and for years I just would turn myself and for years I just would turn myself and for years I just would turn up on the mat and just up on the mat and just up on the mat and just just be quiet and but now it feels just be quiet and but now it feels just be quiet and but now it feels different. It's a different level and different. It's a different level and different. It's a different level and that's the thing. that's the thing. that's the thing. I think it's that thing that when when I think it's that thing that when when I think it's that thing that when when you really look at the when I really you really look at the when I really you really look at the when I really looked at the the So, how does it all looked at the the So, how does it all looked at the the So, how does it all fit together? What are the What are What fit together? What are the What are What fit together? What are the What are What happens first? I think that thing of happens first? I think that thing of happens first? I think that thing of that dark night of the soul that dark night of the soul that dark night of the soul forces you to look at your fears and sit forces you to look at your fears and sit forces you to look at your fears and sit at your fears, really find out what it at your fears, really find out what it at your fears, really find out what it is that's put you in this place and then is that's put you in this place and then is that's put you in this place and then you sit you sit you sit and you're not running away from it and and you're not running away from it and and you're not running away from it and that that each day it gets easier to sit that that each day it gets easier to sit that that each day it gets easier to sit with them. And then you find stillness, with them. And then you find stillness, with them. And then you find stillness, and in that stillness and in that stillness and in that stillness comes grace, comes spirit. And so comes grace, comes spirit. And so comes grace, comes spirit. And so it's it's it's it's it's it's it's quite a tricky thing to talk about, it's quite a tricky thing to talk about, it's quite a tricky thing to talk about, but that's my truth. That's what I feel. but that's my truth. That's what I feel. but that's my truth. That's what I feel. And I think I don't know if you've And I think I don't know if you've And I think I don't know if you've experienced that form of grace. Have you experienced that form of grace. Have you experienced that form of grace. Have you Is that something that Is that something that Is that something that >> Yeah, I think that >> Yeah, I think that >> Yeah, I think that >> on your journey? >> on your journey? >> on your journey? >> Yeah. Yeah, of course. Uh I think a lot >> Yeah. Yeah, of course. Uh I think a lot >> Yeah. Yeah, of course. Uh I think a lot of it has to do with again, going back of it has to do with again, going back of it has to do with again, going back to uh you know, the story that we tell to uh you know, the story that we tell to uh you know, the story that we tell ourselves about what it is. Like, we ourselves about what it is. Like, we ourselves about what it is. Like, we have words for these things. You're have words for these things. You're have words for these things. You're having a mental health crisis, you know? having a mental health crisis, you know? having a mental health crisis, you know? And when you And when you And when you use violent word choices like that, it's use violent word choices like that, it's use violent word choices like that, it's going to compel you to think that going to compel you to think that going to compel you to think that there's something bad or wrong. there's something bad or wrong. there's something bad or wrong. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And when you experience some degree of >> And when you experience some degree of >> And when you experience some degree of discomfort, your first impulse is how do discomfort, your first impulse is how do discomfort, your first impulse is how do I change this? How do I get out of this? I change this? How do I get out of this? I change this? How do I get out of this? It's not supposed to be this way. And It's not supposed to be this way. And It's not supposed to be this way. And what you're talking about is being okay what you're talking about is being okay what you're talking about is being okay with the discomfort. Like, the stillness with the discomfort. Like, the stillness with the discomfort. Like, the stillness is acceptance and surrender. is acceptance and surrender. is acceptance and surrender. And when you're attached to And when you're attached to And when you're attached to whatever you're going through changing, whatever you're going through changing, whatever you're going through changing, you're actually interfering with the you're actually interfering with the you're actually interfering with the process that actually is going to get process that actually is going to get process that actually is going to get you to change and transform, which is you to change and transform, which is you to change and transform, which is stopping everything, being okay with stopping everything, being okay with stopping everything, being okay with where you're at, relinquishing your where you're at, relinquishing your where you're at, relinquishing your impulse to control, letting go of um impulse to control, letting go of um impulse to control, letting go of um your discomfort with the uncertainty of your discomfort with the uncertainty of your discomfort with the uncertainty of it all and what it means, and allowing it all and what it means, and allowing it all and what it means, and allowing it to be what it is. Like, it's it to be what it is. Like, it's it to be what it is. Like, it's basically basically basically accepting reality. accepting reality. accepting reality. And in your case, And in your case, And in your case, you go out to Wales. This is your you go out to Wales. This is your you go out to Wales. This is your special place. And this very primal, special place. And this very primal, special place. And this very primal, untouched part of the world becomes an untouched part of the world becomes an untouched part of the world becomes an antenna to spirit that allows you to antenna to spirit that allows you to antenna to spirit that allows you to inhabit a deeper sense of stillness that inhabit a deeper sense of stillness that inhabit a deeper sense of stillness that brings the healing that you need so that brings the healing that you need so that brings the healing that you need so that you can detatch from you can detatch from you can detatch from outcomes, focus on process, and the more outcomes, focus on process, and the more outcomes, focus on process, and the more in alignment you become, the easier it in alignment you become, the easier it in alignment you become, the easier it is for you to speak your truth and get is for you to speak your truth and get is for you to speak your truth and get in front of the microphone and create in front of the microphone and create in front of the microphone and create art that is actually a reflection of art that is actually a reflection of art that is actually a reflection of who you truly are rather than trying to who you truly are rather than trying to who you truly are rather than trying to make something that you think people make something that you think people make something that you think people want from you or that you should be want from you or that you should be want from you or that you should be doing because of your station in life. doing because of your station in life. doing because of your station in life. How's that for my big How's that for my big How's that for my big my big monologue on how to be Brian? my big monologue on how to be Brian? my big monologue on how to be Brian? >> As you were just saying that I'm like, >> As you were just saying that I'm like, >> As you were just saying that I'm like, you are so coherent and eloquent on you are so coherent and eloquent on you are so coherent and eloquent on this. I mean, there's a reason you're this. I mean, there's a reason you're this. I mean, there's a reason you're writing books and there's a reason you writing books and there's a reason you writing books and there's a reason you did this podcast. I'm still in that did this podcast. I'm still in that did this podcast. I'm still in that phase. It's funny as you said that cuz phase. It's funny as you said that cuz phase. It's funny as you said that cuz when you say it's like being with a when you say it's like being with a when you say it's like being with a teacher who you know, you're talking teacher who you know, you're talking teacher who you know, you're talking about serene it's like I'm still in that about serene it's like I'm still in that about serene it's like I'm still in that phase and I'm kind of phase and I'm kind of phase and I'm kind of I haven't pieced it all together. It's I haven't pieced it all together. It's I haven't pieced it all together. It's still bits like that and I can see bits still bits like that and I can see bits still bits like that and I can see bits and I'm sort of riffing on it. and I'm sort of riffing on it. and I'm sort of riffing on it. >> This is This is my autopsy. >> This is This is my autopsy. >> This is This is my autopsy. >> But it's but what you're saying is >> But it's but what you're saying is >> But it's but what you're saying is presumably that's also that's that's a presumably that's also that's that's a presumably that's also that's that's a journey. That's a very common journey. journey. That's a very common journey. journey. That's a very common journey. >> I mean, nobody wants to get still and >> I mean, nobody wants to get still and >> I mean, nobody wants to get still and stop and you know, sit in their stop and you know, sit in their stop and you know, sit in their discomfort. We want to go out in the discomfort. We want to go out in the discomfort. We want to go out in the world and make people world and make people world and make people like us and notice us and do things and like us and notice us and do things and like us and notice us and do things and have relationships, etc. have relationships, etc. have relationships, etc. And we just And we just And we just we just get in our own way constantly. we just get in our own way constantly. we just get in our own way constantly. >> so interesting I found >> so interesting I found >> so interesting I found I had several mantras and one of them I had several mantras and one of them I had several mantras and one of them was was was I do this thing where I am I do this thing where I am I do this thing where I am I had every day part of my ritual was I had every day part of my ritual was I had every day part of my ritual was you know, I meditate, then I'd go you know, I meditate, then I'd go you know, I meditate, then I'd go outside with a pot of tea. Beautiful. outside with a pot of tea. Beautiful. outside with a pot of tea. Beautiful. Pai Mu Tan tea, a white tea. Pai Mu Tan tea, a white tea. Pai Mu Tan tea, a white tea. Rain or shine, any season, and I'd Rain or shine, any season, and I'd Rain or shine, any season, and I'd listen to the birds and then I've got my listen to the birds and then I've got my listen to the birds and then I've got my book and I'd read my book and I'd read my book and I'd read my just my intentions and one of them was just my intentions and one of them was just my intentions and one of them was was this thing and you mentioned it was this thing and you mentioned it was this thing and you mentioned it about nobody wants uncertainty. about nobody wants uncertainty. about nobody wants uncertainty. It's It's It's one of my mantras is like that's the one of my mantras is like that's the one of my mantras is like that's the place to be. I know creatively that's place to be. I know creatively that's place to be. I know creatively that's the place to be, uncertainty, because the place to be, uncertainty, because the place to be, uncertainty, because because uncertainty is in creativity, because uncertainty is in creativity, because uncertainty is in creativity, that's the place where that's the place where that's the place where you do your best work. you do your best work. you do your best work. You're not relying on what's gone before You're not relying on what's gone before You're not relying on what's gone before or what you know. You're kind of out of or what you know. You're kind of out of or what you know. You're kind of out of your comfort zone. And I think that's your comfort zone. And I think that's your comfort zone. And I think that's the same thing in life because the same thing in life because the same thing in life because what I love about and I now what I love about and I now what I love about and I now I embrace uncertainty. I embrace uncertainty. I embrace uncertainty. Or I know I I know that it's really good Or I know I I know that it's really good Or I know I I know that it's really good for me because that's the place that's for me because that's the place that's for me because that's the place that's free of past conditioning. You know, free of past conditioning. You know, free of past conditioning. You know, that's the place where everything that that's the place where everything that that's the place where everything that your mind has learned is the your mind has learned is the your mind has learned is the accumulation of a lifetime's worth of accumulation of a lifetime's worth of accumulation of a lifetime's worth of experiences. experiences. experiences. In that place of uncertainty, that In that place of uncertainty, that In that place of uncertainty, that disappears and you're like, "Oh [ __ ] disappears and you're like, "Oh [ __ ] disappears and you're like, "Oh [ __ ] where am I?" where am I?" where am I?" But that's where But that's where But that's where transformation happens, you know? And I transformation happens, you know? And I transformation happens, you know? And I And And it is a funny thing. It's It's a And And it is a funny thing. It's It's a And And it is a funny thing. It's It's a I wonder if that's I wonder if that's I wonder if that's part of the journey. That's the the part of the journey. That's the the part of the journey. That's the the journey of of the soul. The evolution is journey of of the soul. The evolution is journey of of the soul. The evolution is the the the is that You know, you're right. When is that You know, you're right. When is that You know, you're right. When we're in a more we're in a more we're in a more not infantile space, but I wouldn't say not infantile space, but I wouldn't say not infantile space, but I wouldn't say infant cuz that wouldn't be fair, but infant cuz that wouldn't be fair, but infant cuz that wouldn't be fair, but but certainly young adults, we seek but certainly young adults, we seek but certainly young adults, we seek comfort and we seek security. comfort and we seek security. comfort and we seek security. We don't trust in the universe. You We don't trust in the universe. You We don't trust in the universe. You know, the world tells us know, the world tells us know, the world tells us it's brutish and it's ugly and and our it's brutish and it's ugly and and our it's brutish and it's ugly and and our system kind of encourages us that as system kind of encourages us that as system kind of encourages us that as well. well. well. But when you go through this other side But when you go through this other side But when you go through this other side and you and you and you you go through these breakthroughs, it's you go through these breakthroughs, it's you go through these breakthroughs, it's learning more to let go and trusting and learning more to let go and trusting and learning more to let go and trusting and then you go, "Okay, that I I like being then you go, "Okay, that I I like being then you go, "Okay, that I I like being in this place of uncertainty." I feel in this place of uncertainty." I feel in this place of uncertainty." I feel like right now I'm in a like right now I'm in a like right now I'm in a really big moment of uncertainty. really big moment of uncertainty. really big moment of uncertainty. >> But uncertainty is reality. >> But uncertainty is reality. >> But uncertainty is reality. >> Yes, exactly. >> Yes, exactly. >> Yes, exactly. >> that things are more certain than they >> that things are more certain than they >> that things are more certain than they are and we make most of our life are and we make most of our life are and we make most of our life decisions decisions decisions trying to control external circumstances trying to control external circumstances trying to control external circumstances to to to give us a greater sense of certainty. I give us a greater sense of certainty. I give us a greater sense of certainty. I think I brought this up in in the panel think I brought this up in in the panel think I brought this up in in the panel that we did, but there's a great that we did, but there's a great that we did, but there's a great psychiatrist called Phil Stutz. He's psychiatrist called Phil Stutz. He's psychiatrist called Phil Stutz. He's been on the show a couple times and been on the show a couple times and been on the show a couple times and his whole thing his whole thing his whole thing uh he treats a lot of very successful uh he treats a lot of very successful uh he treats a lot of very successful um people here in town who are um people here in town who are um people here in town who are terminally dissatisfied. terminally dissatisfied. terminally dissatisfied. And his whole thing on on what's driving And his whole thing on on what's driving And his whole thing on on what's driving this degree of unhappiness and this degree of unhappiness and this degree of unhappiness and dissatisfaction dissatisfaction dissatisfaction is that they deny three unavoidable is that they deny three unavoidable is that they deny three unavoidable truths of life. truths of life. truths of life. Pain, uncertainty, and the need for Pain, uncertainty, and the need for Pain, uncertainty, and the need for constant work. Meaning we're all deluded constant work. Meaning we're all deluded constant work. Meaning we're all deluded into this idea that if we can accumulate into this idea that if we can accumulate into this idea that if we can accumulate enough and have enough enough and have enough enough and have enough stature and and and prestige, etc. stature and and and prestige, etc. stature and and and prestige, etc. that we will be able to transcend these that we will be able to transcend these that we will be able to transcend these truths. That we will arrive at a place truths. That we will arrive at a place truths. That we will arrive at a place where we won't have to deal with pain where we won't have to deal with pain where we won't have to deal with pain anymore. Everything's locked down. anymore. Everything's locked down. anymore. Everything's locked down. There'll be no more uncertainty, and we There'll be no more uncertainty, and we There'll be no more uncertainty, and we won't really have to work on ourselves won't really have to work on ourselves won't really have to work on ourselves anymore. And and this is just driving anymore. And and this is just driving anymore. And and this is just driving all of our suffering. And to your point all of our suffering. And to your point all of our suffering. And to your point uncertainty is a big one and and maybe uncertainty is a big one and and maybe uncertainty is a big one and and maybe the most nuanced one because the most nuanced one because the most nuanced one because truly everything is uncertain. We just truly everything is uncertain. We just truly everything is uncertain. We just do not know, do not know, do not know, and we think we do and we have these and we think we do and we have these and we think we do and we have these control impulses. But as an artist control impulses. But as an artist control impulses. But as an artist there's no room for discovery if you go there's no room for discovery if you go there's no room for discovery if you go into the studio or approach whatever it into the studio or approach whatever it into the studio or approach whatever it is you're trying to express is you're trying to express is you're trying to express locked into some idea of what it's going locked into some idea of what it's going locked into some idea of what it's going to be or should be. And to be or should be. And to be or should be. And I know cuz I've heard you talk about I know cuz I've heard you talk about I know cuz I've heard you talk about this with Blue Morpho this with Blue Morpho this with Blue Morpho going in without an agenda and and just going in without an agenda and and just going in without an agenda and and just paying attention and opening up your paying attention and opening up your paying attention and opening up your antenna for something to come in antenna for something to come in antenna for something to come in is how this whole thing happened by not is how this whole thing happened by not is how this whole thing happened by not being attached to what it should be or being attached to what it should be or being attached to what it should be or could be and allowing it to be what it could be and allowing it to be what it could be and allowing it to be what it wanted to be. wanted to be. wanted to be. >> Yeah, exactly. And then and you know, >> Yeah, exactly. And then and you know, >> Yeah, exactly. And then and you know, the less I sort of try to control it or the less I sort of try to control it or the less I sort of try to control it or move it move it move it the more that the richer it got that the more that the richer it got that the more that the richer it got that that and the more that and the more that and the more yeah, kind of I felt the more yeah, kind of I felt the more yeah, kind of I felt the more magnificent it got cuz it would didn't magnificent it got cuz it would didn't magnificent it got cuz it would didn't feel like me and my only job is feel like me and my only job is feel like me and my only job is my job is my intuition to being honest my job is my intuition to being honest my job is my intuition to being honest with that and going this feels good or with that and going this feels good or with that and going this feels good or that I'm not sure that's very good. And that I'm not sure that's very good. And that I'm not sure that's very good. And that's really important because you that's really important because you that's really important because you you're not like a rudderless ship. you're not like a rudderless ship. you're not like a rudderless ship. You're like you're like in the river but You're like you're like in the river but You're like you're like in the river but you're just gently going oh, that feels you're just gently going oh, that feels you're just gently going oh, that feels good and you're not you can't force good and you're not you can't force good and you're not you can't force anything. It's happening but it needs anything. It's happening but it needs anything. It's happening but it needs you to be present and it needs you to be you to be present and it needs you to be you to be present and it needs you to be true to what you're feeling. And that true to what you're feeling. And that true to what you're feeling. And that the truth that you know, you can so that the truth that you know, you can so that the truth that you know, you can so that you know, in creativity you can you can you know, in creativity you can you can you know, in creativity you can you can do those things where you can work on do those things where you can work on do those things where you can work on something all day. something all day. something all day. But you've got to also have the guts to But you've got to also have the guts to But you've got to also have the guts to go go go I'm not really feeling this. Yeah. You I'm not really feeling this. Yeah. You I'm not really feeling this. Yeah. You can see you know, we all have that thing can see you know, we all have that thing can see you know, we all have that thing we put a lot of effort into stuff and we put a lot of effort into stuff and we put a lot of effort into stuff and and but that's okay, right? That's and but that's okay, right? That's and but that's okay, right? That's >> you know when you've stumbled upon >> you know when you've stumbled upon >> you know when you've stumbled upon an idea an idea an idea a progression of sounds that is working? a progression of sounds that is working? a progression of sounds that is working? Is it just it stays with you? It's Is it just it stays with you? It's Is it just it stays with you? It's intuition? Like how do you know when oh, intuition? Like how do you know when oh, intuition? Like how do you know when oh, I need to go back and develop that I need to go back and develop that I need to go back and develop that versus like eh versus like eh versus like eh >> It's so interesting. One of the things I >> It's so interesting. One of the things I >> It's so interesting. One of the things I I I I feel like I'm a real novice to I I I feel like I'm a real novice to I I I feel like I'm a real novice to songwriting. So, I'm kind of songwriting. So, I'm kind of songwriting. So, I'm kind of speaking with I'm speaking about it in a speaking with I'm speaking about it in a speaking with I'm speaking about it in a way that way that way that it's still kind of it's still kind of it's still kind of >> The guy in Radiohead. >> The guy in Radiohead. >> The guy in Radiohead. >> Well, but the songwriting aspect that >> Well, but the songwriting aspect that >> Well, but the songwriting aspect that comes that that that comes that that that comes that that that how these songs come about that was the how these songs come about that was the how these songs come about that was the domain of Tom. domain of Tom. domain of Tom. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, Tom would get to the and he >> You know, Tom would get to the and he >> You know, Tom would get to the and he would bring us the songs in rehearsal would bring us the songs in rehearsal would bring us the songs in rehearsal not in the early days and then the not in the early days and then the not in the early days and then the studio and then we might flesh them out studio and then we might flesh them out studio and then we might flesh them out and arrange them by the and write our and arrange them by the and write our and arrange them by the and write our own parts, but we weren't involved with own parts, but we weren't involved with own parts, but we weren't involved with very very very rarely very rarely very very very rarely very rarely very very very rarely very rarely involved in the actual involved in the actual involved in the actual first shoots of that song. That was him first shoots of that song. That was him first shoots of that song. That was him on his own. on his own. on his own. And then he might work with Johnny or And then he might work with Johnny or And then he might work with Johnny or something, but for me, I hadn't something, but for me, I hadn't something, but for me, I hadn't experienced that and I've really been experienced that and I've really been experienced that and I've really been experiencing like that the last 12 experiencing like that the last 12 experiencing like that the last 12 years. So I still feel like I'm years. So I still feel like I'm years. So I still feel like I'm it's early days in that. But what's what it's early days in that. But what's what it's early days in that. But what's what I found that I found that I found that I mean, I find it in I find it just I mean, I find it in I find it just I mean, I find it in I find it just extraordinary is that sometimes you get extraordinary is that sometimes you get extraordinary is that sometimes you get this thing and essentially music is this thing and essentially music is this thing and essentially music is it's mathematical intervals and their it's mathematical intervals and their it's mathematical intervals and their patterns and sometimes they're repeated. patterns and sometimes they're repeated. patterns and sometimes they're repeated. I mean, that's essentially what it is, I mean, that's essentially what it is, I mean, that's essentially what it is, but sometimes that that musical motif but sometimes that that musical motif but sometimes that that musical motif can come out can come out can come out and in that moment, you suddenly feel and in that moment, you suddenly feel and in that moment, you suddenly feel this excitement cuz you can feel this excitement cuz you can feel this excitement cuz you can feel like the universe of this song. You like the universe of this song. You like the universe of this song. You don't know all the detail, but you don't know all the detail, but you don't know all the detail, but you suddenly go, "Oh, wow." suddenly go, "Oh, wow." suddenly go, "Oh, wow." And there's something about the emotion And there's something about the emotion And there's something about the emotion that comes with it, but it's also you that comes with it, but it's also you that comes with it, but it's also you feel the potential of what this thing a feel the potential of what this thing a feel the potential of what this thing a track that doesn't have that you kind of track that doesn't have that you kind of track that doesn't have that you kind of get meh. You don't feel that. It's just get meh. You don't feel that. It's just get meh. You don't feel that. It's just like it comes out and you go, "Okay." like it comes out and you go, "Okay." like it comes out and you go, "Okay." But the really good ones, But the really good ones, But the really good ones, they they they it's it's like a it's it's like a it's it's like a it is it's like a an acorn seed an it is it's like a an acorn seed an it is it's like a an acorn seed an acorn. In that seed, you have the acorn. In that seed, you have the acorn. In that seed, you have the potential of this magnificent tree potential of this magnificent tree potential of this magnificent tree that can grow and be that thing. It the that can grow and be that thing. It the that can grow and be that thing. It the potential of that growth is all in there potential of that growth is all in there potential of that growth is all in there from that seed. It's in that thing and from that seed. It's in that thing and from that seed. It's in that thing and you get the same thing with it's you get the same thing with it's you get the same thing with it's extraordinary you can get the same thing extraordinary you can get the same thing extraordinary you can get the same thing with music with with some notes in an with music with with some notes in an with music with with some notes in an interval and patterns, you know. >> So I've been sleeping on a Birch >> So I've been sleeping on a Birch mattress for better part of about 5 mattress for better part of about 5 mattress for better part of about 5 years [music] at this point. And one years [music] at this point. And one years [music] at this point. And one thing I would say is that having a great thing I would say is that having a great thing I would say is that having a great mattress is one [music] of those things mattress is one [music] of those things mattress is one [music] of those things you don't really fully appreciate until you don't really fully appreciate until you don't really fully appreciate until you experience the difference night you experience the difference night you experience the difference night after night. [music] Yes, it has after night. [music] Yes, it has after night. [music] Yes, it has enhanced my sleep quality courtesy of enhanced my sleep quality courtesy of enhanced my sleep quality courtesy of the quality of its responsibly sourced the quality of its responsibly sourced the quality of its responsibly sourced materials, things like organic cotton materials, things like organic cotton materials, things like organic cotton [music] [music] [music] and natural latex, fabricated to be and natural latex, fabricated to be and natural latex, fabricated to be solid but comfortable to support the solid but comfortable to support the solid but comfortable to support the body without being overly soft and so body without being overly soft and so body without being overly soft and so you can sleep cool. [music] you can sleep cool. [music] you can sleep cool. [music] Also, and you may not know this, most Also, and you may not know this, most Also, and you may not know this, most conventional mattresses are made with conventional mattresses are made with conventional mattresses are made with all manner of synthetics that create all manner of synthetics that create all manner of synthetics that create [music] chemical off-gassing. This is [music] chemical off-gassing. This is [music] chemical off-gassing. This is not good, which is another reason why not good, which is another reason why not good, which is another reason why Birch is so good. Sleep quality plus the Birch is so good. Sleep quality plus the Birch is so good. Sleep quality plus the quality of the product that you actually quality of the product that you actually quality of the product that you actually spend a third of your life on, these spend a third of your life on, these spend a third of your life on, these things really matter to me. They matter things really matter to me. They matter things really matter to me. They matter to Birch and they really should matter to Birch and they really should matter to Birch and they really should matter to you, too. [music] And with Birch you to you, too. [music] And with Birch you to you, too. [music] And with Birch you get all of it. Plus, the setup is get all of it. Plus, the setup is get all of it. Plus, the setup is simple. It shows up at your door, rolls simple. It shows up at your door, rolls simple. It shows up at your door, rolls out easily, and you get [music] 120 out easily, and you get [music] 120 out easily, and you get [music] 120 nights to really see how your body nights to really see how your body nights to really see how your body responds. Go to birchliving.com/richroll responds. Go to birchliving.com/richroll responds. Go to birchliving.com/richroll for 27% for 27% for 27% off sitewide. That's off sitewide. That's off sitewide. That's birchliving.com/richroll. birchliving.com/richroll. birchliving.com/richroll. You can get 27% off sitewide. You can get 27% off sitewide. You can get 27% off sitewide. I'm a dog person. We have two giant I'm a dog person. We have two giant I'm a dog person. We have two giant Great Pyrenees. They're the best. And if Great Pyrenees. They're the best. And if Great Pyrenees. They're the best. And if you're a dog person like me, then you you're a dog person like me, then you you're a dog person like me, then you know they're not just pets, they're know they're not just pets, they're know they're not just pets, they're family. And they deserve the best, which family. And they deserve the best, which family. And they deserve the best, which brings me to Ollie, [music] brings me to Ollie, [music] brings me to Ollie, [music] fine purveyors of fresh meals made with fine purveyors of fresh meals made with fine purveyors of fresh meals made with high-quality ingredients, portioned high-quality ingredients, portioned high-quality ingredients, portioned specifically for your dog, and delivered specifically for your dog, and delivered specifically for your dog, and delivered right to your door. The thing about right to your door. The thing about right to your door. The thing about Ollie is that you can tell that they Ollie is that you can tell that they Ollie is that you can tell that they care. And [music] since switching, the care. And [music] since switching, the care. And [music] since switching, the difference is pretty obvious. Mealtime difference is pretty obvious. Mealtime difference is pretty obvious. Mealtime is like a whole event for my guys. is like a whole event for my guys. is like a whole event for my guys. Complete focus. Bowls gone in seconds. Complete focus. Bowls gone in seconds. Complete focus. Bowls gone in seconds. But it's not just the food. Through But it's not just the food. Through But it's not just the food. Through their app, you can actually check in on their app, you can actually check in on their app, you can actually check in on your dog's health, Things like [music] your dog's health, Things like [music] your dog's health, Things like [music] weight, coat, and even digestion just by weight, coat, and even digestion just by weight, coat, and even digestion just by sharing a photo. Just another reason why sharing a photo. Just another reason why sharing a photo. Just another reason why I'm obsessed and my Great Pyrenees are, I'm obsessed and my Great Pyrenees are, I'm obsessed and my Great Pyrenees are, too. But, don't just take it from me or too. But, don't just take it from me or too. But, don't just take it from me or from Moses or from Ollie. Check it out from Moses or from Ollie. Check it out from Moses or from Ollie. Check it out for yourself and let your dogs [music] for yourself and let your dogs [music] for yourself and let your dogs [music] check it out, too. Head to check it out, too. Head to check it out, too. Head to Ollie.com/richroll, Ollie.com/richroll, Ollie.com/richroll, tell them all about your dog, and use tell them all about your dog, and use tell them all about your dog, and use code richroll to get 70% off your code richroll to get 70% off your code richroll to get 70% off your welcome kit when you subscribe [music] welcome kit when you subscribe [music] welcome kit when you subscribe [music] today. Plus, they offer an obsession today. Plus, they offer an obsession today. Plus, they offer an obsession guarantee. If you're not completely guarantee. If you're not completely guarantee. If you're not completely obsessed, you'll get your money back. obsessed, you'll get your money back. obsessed, you'll get your money back. That's Ollie.com/richroll and enter code richroll to get 70% off and enter code richroll to get 70% off your first box. Ollie, feed the your first box. Ollie, feed the your first box. Ollie, feed the obsession. Based upon what you just said, I think I Based upon what you just said, I think I can predict how you feel about can predict how you feel about can predict how you feel about the advent of AI the advent of AI the advent of AI in music and in songwriting. in music and in songwriting. in music and in songwriting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Say your piece on that. >> Say your piece on that. >> Say your piece on that. >> I mean, >> I mean, >> I mean, I really worry about AI in a general I really worry about AI in a general I really worry about AI in a general terms because I think it's another one terms because I think it's another one terms because I think it's another one of those Live it spending so much time in the Live it spending so much time in the countryside. I I was originally a countryside. I I was originally a countryside. I I was originally a country boy and then lived in a city in country boy and then lived in a city in country boy and then lived in a city in London for 30 years and Manchester and London for 30 years and Manchester and London for 30 years and Manchester and then country boy again. then country boy again. then country boy again. And what you realize when you live in a And what you realize when you live in a And what you realize when you live in a city city city is that human beings go around and they is that human beings go around and they is that human beings go around and they go, "Wow, look at these beautiful go, "Wow, look at these beautiful go, "Wow, look at these beautiful buildings and these things that we've buildings and these things that we've buildings and these things that we've created." It's all about created." It's all about created." It's all about human beings enamored with their own human beings enamored with their own human beings enamored with their own creativity and their own cleverness. creativity and their own cleverness. creativity and their own cleverness. Whereas if in the countryside, you look Whereas if in the countryside, you look Whereas if in the countryside, you look at a tree and you go, "You look at those at a tree and you go, "You look at those at a tree and you go, "You look at those leaves. You look at the perfection of leaves. You look at the perfection of leaves. You look at the perfection of that branch." And you go, that branch." And you go, that branch." And you go, "Great artists "Great artists "Great artists can maybe match that beauty and that can maybe match that beauty and that can maybe match that beauty and that that that thing and they can represent that that thing and they can represent that that thing and they can represent that." that." that." That's where real beauty resides. That's where real beauty resides. That's where real beauty resides. And uh And uh And uh I feel the same way with AI. I feel like I feel the same way with AI. I feel like I feel the same way with AI. I feel like I see these I see these I see these very, very blinkered people very, very blinkered people very, very blinkered people who are enamored with who are enamored with who are enamored with AI and its potential and they're using AI and its potential and they're using AI and its potential and they're using all sorts of excuses. Like they always all sorts of excuses. Like they always all sorts of excuses. Like they always pull out the medical one. They always pull out the medical one. They always pull out the medical one. They always go, "It's going to revolutionize go, "It's going to revolutionize go, "It's going to revolutionize medicine." But, you know, what do they let in But, you know, what do they let in through the back door? And so, in terms through the back door? And so, in terms through the back door? And so, in terms of creativity, of creativity, of creativity, there's no doubt that it will have a there's no doubt that it will have a there's no doubt that it will have a huge effect on the music industry. huge effect on the music industry. huge effect on the music industry. And what it will probably There's always And what it will probably There's always And what it will probably There's always been an aspect of of music that has has been an aspect of of music that has has been an aspect of of music that has has had a the mass appeal. had a the mass appeal. had a the mass appeal. Certainly, sort of what I call sort of Certainly, sort of what I call sort of Certainly, sort of what I call sort of plastic pop music. plastic pop music. plastic pop music. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I think that's where AI will make the >> I think that's where AI will make the >> I think that's where AI will make the biggest inroads, which is a shame biggest inroads, which is a shame biggest inroads, which is a shame because also I grew up in an era of pop because also I grew up in an era of pop because also I grew up in an era of pop music where the you know, the the the music where the you know, the the the music where the you know, the the the pop artists were people like Madonna and pop artists were people like Madonna and pop artists were people like Madonna and George Michael and you know, not that I George Michael and you know, not that I George Michael and you know, not that I was huge fans of Madonna, but was huge fans of Madonna, but was huge fans of Madonna, but brilliant pop star and a and a great brilliant pop star and a and a great brilliant pop star and a and a great singer and a great song writer. All singer and a great song writer. All singer and a great song writer. All these things. these things. these things. I think the plastic that thing I think I think the plastic that thing I think I think the plastic that thing I think the artistry of the artistry of the artistry of you know, AI doesn't have a soul you know, AI doesn't have a soul you know, AI doesn't have a soul yet. And in my understanding of spirit, yet. And in my understanding of spirit, yet. And in my understanding of spirit, how can it have a soul? how can it have a soul? how can it have a soul? I resonate with Buddhism. You know, very I resonate with Buddhism. You know, very I resonate with Buddhism. You know, very much so. I'm not a practicing Buddhist, much so. I'm not a practicing Buddhist, much so. I'm not a practicing Buddhist, but the but the but the the whole idea we've had many, many the whole idea we've had many, many the whole idea we've had many, many lives. We have a thing called a soul lives. We have a thing called a soul lives. We have a thing called a soul which inhabits our physical body. which inhabits our physical body. which inhabits our physical body. And when we're born, that soul enters And when we're born, that soul enters And when we're born, that soul enters the physical body. And when we die, it the physical body. And when we die, it the physical body. And when we die, it leaves. And then it goes up and has leaves. And then it goes up and has leaves. And then it goes up and has another lifetime. another lifetime. another lifetime. A machine can't have a soul. A machine can't have a soul. A machine can't have a soul. Um Um Um it can have a it's like a mind. It can it can have a it's like a mind. It can it can have a it's like a mind. It can have a supreme intelligence. And I I have a supreme intelligence. And I I have a supreme intelligence. And I I just think great music has to have soul. just think great music has to have soul. just think great music has to have soul. All my favorite music, you know, they All my favorite music, you know, they All my favorite music, you know, they they come from It's not just they come from It's not just they come from It's not just It's not just mathematics. It's There is It's not just mathematics. It's There is It's not just mathematics. It's There is a There's a huge aspect of it that is a There's a huge aspect of it that is a There's a huge aspect of it that is mathematics. And that's what it tries to mathematics. And that's what it tries to mathematics. And that's what it tries to do, but it's the energy and it's the do, but it's the energy and it's the do, but it's the energy and it's the love and it's the emotion and whatever love and it's the emotion and whatever love and it's the emotion and whatever it is that accompanies it that can it is that accompanies it that can it is that accompanies it that can elevate and make music what it is. elevate and make music what it is. elevate and make music what it is. >> Mhm. When you were going through it, >> Mhm. When you were going through it, >> Mhm. When you were going through it, what role what role what role did did did music play in you navigating this music play in you navigating this music play in you navigating this depression? depression? depression? >> I stopped listening to music and it was >> I stopped listening to music and it was >> I stopped listening to music and it was more about the form, the type of music. more about the form, the type of music. more about the form, the type of music. And it was really about the type of And it was really about the type of And it was really about the type of music music music I guess if you want that I traditionally I guess if you want that I traditionally I guess if you want that I traditionally come from, I guess alternative music and come from, I guess alternative music and come from, I guess alternative music and and I think that there was I just had and I think that there was I just had and I think that there was I just had enough and enough and enough and it felt like I was full. That well was it felt like I was full. That well was it felt like I was full. That well was full. I never need to hear this music full. I never need to hear this music full. I never need to hear this music again. again. >> [snorts] >> And then at that stage I was just >> And then at that stage I was just >> And then at that stage I was just it was that first lockdown and I was it was that first lockdown and I was it was that first lockdown and I was just listening to birdsong. The birds just listening to birdsong. The birds just listening to birdsong. The birds were alive, they were happy, they felt were alive, they were happy, they felt were alive, they were happy, they felt It felt like they were celebrating that It felt like they were celebrating that It felt like they were celebrating that human beings have finally stopped and human beings have finally stopped and human beings have finally stopped and they could breathe and sing their songs they could breathe and sing their songs they could breathe and sing their songs that that that So I was really enamored by birdsong and So I was really enamored by birdsong and So I was really enamored by birdsong and the sounds of nature. I couldn't listen the sounds of nature. I couldn't listen the sounds of nature. I couldn't listen to to to And then what happens, I start And then what happens, I start And then what happens, I start It's like a It's like It's like ground It's like a It's like It's like ground It's like a It's like It's like ground zero. zero. zero. And then you just feed and I started And then you just feed and I started And then you just feed and I started feeding feeding feeding um um um There's an album called Spirit of Eden There's an album called Spirit of Eden There's an album called Spirit of Eden by Talk Talk, which is an extraordinary by Talk Talk, which is an extraordinary by Talk Talk, which is an extraordinary record. So that was one of the things record. So that was one of the things record. So that was one of the things that I bought that on vinyl in in that I bought that on vinyl in in that I bought that on vinyl in in lockdown and that's that's sort of lockdown and that's that's sort of lockdown and that's that's sort of started started started That was That really resonated. That was That really resonated. That was That really resonated. And then I realized what I was being And then I realized what I was being And then I realized what I was being drawn to was sort of drawn to was sort of drawn to was sort of music that felt like it didn't have the music that felt like it didn't have the music that felt like it didn't have the traditional form or the kind of form traditional form or the kind of form traditional form or the kind of form that I was used to I because I was sort that I was used to I because I was sort that I was used to I because I was sort of letting go, the music had to of letting go, the music had to of letting go, the music had to represent that. I didn't want to hear represent that. I didn't want to hear represent that. I didn't want to hear something with something with something with a very distinct arrangement like a a very distinct arrangement like a a very distinct arrangement like a verse, chorus, verse, chorus. That had verse, chorus, verse, chorus. That had verse, chorus, verse, chorus. That had no interest in for me at all. I felt no interest in for me at all. I felt no interest in for me at all. I felt bored by it. It felt like bored by it. It felt like bored by it. It felt like But I said, "How do I But I said, "How do I But I said, "How do I But at the same time, But at the same time, But at the same time, I was I was I was playing my guitar in a very unformless playing my guitar in a very unformless playing my guitar in a very unformless way, but just little musical motifs. way, but just little musical motifs. way, but just little musical motifs. And the the the thing was as as the days And the the the thing was as as the days And the the the thing was as as the days went by and I started to listen to I went by and I started to listen to I went by and I started to listen to I started to listen to more classical started to listen to more classical started to listen to more classical music and more jazz music. So, what was music and more jazz music. So, what was music and more jazz music. So, what was coming in was coming in was coming in was not formless music, but but music that I not formless music, but but music that I not formless music, but but music that I couldn't couldn't couldn't cuz I didn't have the musical cuz I didn't have the musical cuz I didn't have the musical brainpower, if you like, to go with the brainpower, if you like, to go with the brainpower, if you like, to go with the form is like that. It felt like it was form is like that. It felt like it was form is like that. It felt like it was more open-ended. more open-ended. more open-ended. I could understand the movement. I could understand the movement. I could understand the movement. >> How can I make sounds that reflect this >> How can I make sounds that reflect this >> How can I make sounds that reflect this emotional state that I'm experiencing? emotional state that I'm experiencing? emotional state that I'm experiencing? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, and it had to be free of any kind Yeah, and it had to be free of any kind Yeah, and it had to be free of any kind of construction. It had to be without of construction. It had to be without of construction. It had to be without form, but it couldn't be form, but it couldn't be form, but it couldn't be It had to have some form. It had to have It had to have some form. It had to have It had to have some form. It had to have melody. It had to have a journey through melody. It had to have a journey through melody. It had to have a journey through it. You know, it it. You know, it it. You know, it It couldn't be sort of gratuitously It couldn't be sort of gratuitously It couldn't be sort of gratuitously You know, there has to be something that You know, there has to be something that You know, there has to be something that you latch onto for a listener. So, I was you latch onto for a listener. So, I was you latch onto for a listener. So, I was just trying to find that and that again just trying to find that and that again just trying to find that and that again was was was I mean, it was so interesting. I mean, I mean, it was so interesting. I mean, I mean, it was so interesting. I mean, the track Blue Morpho when the track Blue Morpho when the track Blue Morpho when the first thing that went down on that the first thing that went down on that the first thing that went down on that was an acoustic guitar track. So, the it was an acoustic guitar track. So, the it was an acoustic guitar track. So, the it It's so interesting. I hadn't thought of It's so interesting. I hadn't thought of It's so interesting. I hadn't thought of this, but I guess this, but I guess this, but I guess that maybe that maybe that maybe This is the first time I've realized This is the first time I've realized This is the first time I've realized this. That maybe the moment this. That maybe the moment this. That maybe the moment where where where the record the record the record was suddenly this is how it is. So, it was suddenly this is how it is. So, it was suddenly this is how it is. So, it was a beautiful hot summer 2022 was a beautiful hot summer 2022 was a beautiful hot summer 2022 in the studio in Wales. We had the in the studio in Wales. We had the in the studio in Wales. We had the windows up. Beautiful. It's a Georgian windows up. Beautiful. It's a Georgian windows up. Beautiful. It's a Georgian house, so these big windows and sash house, so these big windows and sash house, so these big windows and sash windows. We had a microphone outside windows. We had a microphone outside windows. We had a microphone outside here for the birdsong, cuz we were going here for the birdsong, cuz we were going here for the birdsong, cuz we were going to to to record some of this birdsong. record some of this birdsong. record some of this birdsong. >> Yeah, which is how that song opens. >> Yeah, which is how that song opens. >> Yeah, which is how that song opens. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. And then I had And then I had And then I had I had these series of little mo- musical I had these series of little mo- musical I had these series of little mo- musical motifs. motifs. motifs. And I had an idea for like we'll go from And I had an idea for like we'll go from And I had an idea for like we'll go from that section to that section, which is that section to that section, which is that section to that section, which is Blue Morpho, but I didn't know how they Blue Morpho, but I didn't know how they Blue Morpho, but I didn't know how they run. And certainly at the top of the run. And certainly at the top of the run. And certainly at the top of the song, song, song, I didn't know how to I didn't know how to I didn't know how to I didn't know how we would I didn't know how we would I didn't know how we would step into this song. step into this song. step into this song. And so I just sort of let go, and I had And so I just sort of let go, and I had And so I just sort of let go, and I had my acoustic guitar, and I just played my acoustic guitar, and I just played my acoustic guitar, and I just played it. it. it. And I thought it was a kind of a rough And I thought it was a kind of a rough And I thought it was a kind of a rough thing. thing. thing. And that version And that version And that version that guitar that guitar that guitar is the guitar that is on Blue Morpho, is the guitar that is on Blue Morpho, is the guitar that is on Blue Morpho, and that and that and that that was the arrangement. that was the arrangement. that was the arrangement. Now, Now, Now, I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know what I was doing. I was just I was just I was just letting go. letting go. letting go. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that was and that sort of gave me >> And that was and that sort of gave me >> And that was and that sort of gave me confidence, but that was also confidence, but that was also confidence, but that was also underpinned, and it was and it's that underpinned, and it was and it's that underpinned, and it was and it's that thing like I'm saying the more I'm thing like I'm saying the more I'm thing like I'm saying the more I'm letting go. And that was being in a letting go. And that was being in a letting go. And that was being in a place of uncertainty, but not before place of uncertainty, but not before place of uncertainty, but not before where uncertainty was something that I where uncertainty was something that I where uncertainty was something that I might be might be might be frightened of or paralyzed by. It was frightened of or paralyzed by. It was frightened of or paralyzed by. It was just a just a just a It's embracing. It's like I don't know It's embracing. It's like I don't know It's embracing. It's like I don't know what I'm doing. Let's just what I'm doing. Let's just what I'm doing. Let's just You know, just I don't I don't know what You know, just I don't I don't know what You know, just I don't I don't know what I'm doing. I don't I'm doing. I don't I'm doing. I don't >> That's the discovery part. That's the >> That's the discovery part. That's the >> That's the discovery part. That's the That's the comfort with uncertainty that That's the comfort with uncertainty that That's the comfort with uncertainty that gives birth to something new that you gives birth to something new that you gives birth to something new that you couldn't have predicted if you were couldn't have predicted if you were couldn't have predicted if you were trying to manage it, you know. trying to manage it, you know. trying to manage it, you know. >> Exactly. And that's the beauty of what I >> Exactly. And that's the beauty of what I >> Exactly. And that's the beauty of what I do. And that's why for me now, do. And that's why for me now, do. And that's why for me now, it is so it is so it is so intoxicating. It's so like, "Oh my god, intoxicating. It's so like, "Oh my god, intoxicating. It's so like, "Oh my god, I want to do this more." because the I want to do this more." because the I want to do this more." because the more I lean into this uncertainty, more I lean into this uncertainty, more I lean into this uncertainty, >> Well, that's where the [ __ ] is. >> Well, that's where the [ __ ] is. >> Well, that's where the [ __ ] is. >> Yeah, exactly. That's where it is. >> Yeah, exactly. That's where it is. >> Yeah, exactly. That's where it is. >> The The record, you're going on this >> The The record, you're going on this >> The The record, you're going on this journey. It opens with incantations. journey. It opens with incantations. journey. It opens with incantations. It's you know it's a it's it's dark and It's you know it's a it's it's dark and It's you know it's a it's it's dark and it's it's it's it's it's it's kind of pounding and you're having this kind of pounding and you're having this kind of pounding and you're having this visceral experience and then Blue visceral experience and then Blue visceral experience and then Blue Morpho, you hear the birds, you realize Morpho, you hear the birds, you realize Morpho, you hear the birds, you realize there's light at the end of the tunnel. there's light at the end of the tunnel. there's light at the end of the tunnel. Like it's going to be okay. Like it's going to be okay. Like it's going to be okay. You're telling this story You're telling this story You're telling this story and in listening to it and listening to and in listening to it and listening to and in listening to it and listening to the album again and again like the album again and again like the album again and again like you could be a film composer. Like you could be a film composer. Like you could be a film composer. Like there's a there's a lot of like film there's a there's a lot of like film there's a there's a lot of like film composition composition composition DNA built into this record. Have you DNA built into this record. Have you DNA built into this record. Have you thought about that? I mean I know thought about that? I mean I know thought about that? I mean I know Johnny's got that Johnny's got that Johnny's got that >> Johnny's got that down. >> Johnny's got that down. >> Johnny's got that down. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> He's the king. >> He's the king. >> He's the king. >> He's he's figured that one out. >> He's he's figured that one out. >> He's he's figured that one out. >> He's figured out. >> He's figured out. >> He's figured out. And he's so good at that because he's And he's so good at that because he's And he's so good at that because he's also got all the musical chops. He's got also got all the musical chops. He's got also got all the musical chops. He's got you know he can score stuff. He writes I you know he can score stuff. He writes I you know he can score stuff. He writes I can't write music. Um it's interesting. can't write music. Um it's interesting. can't write music. Um it's interesting. Yeah, I mean you know music for me is Yeah, I mean you know music for me is Yeah, I mean you know music for me is very visual when I connect with music very visual when I connect with music very visual when I connect with music it's very visual. it's very visual. it's very visual. I like I mean I've always loved I like I mean I've always loved I like I mean I've always loved uh uh uh film music. Every you know I think one film music. Every you know I think one film music. Every you know I think one of the earliest of the earliest of the earliest um albums my parents had was Midnight um albums my parents had was Midnight um albums my parents had was Midnight Cowboy. Cowboy. Cowboy. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh the Jon Voight Dustin Hoffman great >> Uh the Jon Voight Dustin Hoffman great >> Uh the Jon Voight Dustin Hoffman great soundtrack. soundtrack. soundtrack. Uh obviously everybody's talking the Uh obviously everybody's talking the Uh obviously everybody's talking the Fred Neil song Nelson sang it but also Fred Neil song Nelson sang it but also Fred Neil song Nelson sang it but also the soundtrack by John Barry. the soundtrack by John Barry. the soundtrack by John Barry. But I loved Ennio Morricone. Loved the But I loved Ennio Morricone. Loved the But I loved Ennio Morricone. Loved the sound I mean sound I mean sound I mean one of my favorite films but I I had the one of my favorite films but I I had the one of my favorite films but I I had the album before I ever I had the album for album before I ever I had the album for album before I ever I had the album for 3 years before I ever saw the film was 3 years before I ever saw the film was 3 years before I ever saw the film was Wim Wenders Paris Texas the Ry Cooder Wim Wenders Paris Texas the Ry Cooder Wim Wenders Paris Texas the Ry Cooder soundtrack. I loved that and I would soundtrack. I loved that and I would soundtrack. I loved that and I would listen in my bedroom in listen in my bedroom in listen in my bedroom in West Oxford and dream about deserts in West Oxford and dream about deserts in West Oxford and dream about deserts in West Texas you know. West Texas you know. West Texas you know. >> So this is I'm seeing your future. I >> So this is I'm seeing your future. I >> So this is I'm seeing your future. I think I think yeah you're lighting up think I think yeah you're lighting up think I think yeah you're lighting up talking about this. I think there's talking about this. I think there's talking about this. I think there's something there for you. something there for you. something there for you. >> Yeah, I mean I'm intrigued. I just I >> Yeah, I mean I'm intrigued. I just I >> Yeah, I mean I'm intrigued. I just I just there's a discipline involved just there's a discipline involved just there's a discipline involved there. there. there. And I don't know whether I can I would And I don't know whether I can I would And I don't know whether I can I would be able to, like, be able to, like, be able to, like, um um um shackle my shackle my shackle my my letting go with the discipline of my letting go with the discipline of my letting go with the discipline of making a record, you know. making a record, you know. making a record, you know. I'm I'm still at a stage and I had a I'm I'm still at a stage and I had a I'm I'm still at a stage and I had a meeting with a music supervisor here in meeting with a music supervisor here in meeting with a music supervisor here in LA. LA. LA. And he's great and he was saying similar And he's great and he was saying similar And he's great and he was saying similar things. And I said to myself, I want to things. And I said to myself, I want to things. And I said to myself, I want to do another album first. I want to I feel do another album first. I want to I feel do another album first. I want to I feel like I'm I just love making my own like I'm I just love making my own like I'm I just love making my own movies, if you like, and I movies, if you like, and I movies, if you like, and I You know, my You know, my You know, my >> Which you did with this album. >> Which you did with this album. >> Which you did with this album. >> Well, my ideal is that I make the music >> Well, my ideal is that I make the music >> Well, my ideal is that I make the music and then someone else makes the movie. and then someone else makes the movie. and then someone else makes the movie. That's what would be really cool. I That's what would be really cool. I That's what would be really cool. I mean, I'd love to be able to do mean, I'd love to be able to do mean, I'd love to be able to do >> Who's going to make the movie to my >> Who's going to make the movie to my >> Who's going to make the movie to my album? Yeah. album? Yeah. album? Yeah. >> Yeah, who's going to make the movie to >> Yeah, who's going to make the movie to >> Yeah, who's going to make the movie to my album? And if if there's anyone out my album? And if if there's anyone out my album? And if if there's anyone out there who, you know, and I I think it's there who, you know, and I I think it's there who, you know, and I I think it's interesting there are I think it's also interesting there are I think it's also interesting there are I think it's also with, you know, look at my my friend my with, you know, look at my my friend my with, you know, look at my my friend my my sort of bestie Garth who my sort of bestie Garth who my sort of bestie Garth who who's a film director and done all the who's a film director and done all the who's a film director and done all the Sing movies and written them in in Sing movies and written them in in Sing movies and written them in in animation, but made Son of Rambow. He animation, but made Son of Rambow. He animation, but made Son of Rambow. He started off in started off in started off in making, you know, videos as did David making, you know, videos as did David making, you know, videos as did David Fincher and, you know, Fincher and, you know, Fincher and, you know, but there are people like, but there are people like, but there are people like, you know, Paul Thomas Anderson who you know, Paul Thomas Anderson who you know, Paul Thomas Anderson who Johnny works with, who who Well, he's Johnny works with, who who Well, he's Johnny works with, who who Well, he's made videos for Tom. I think made videos for Tom. I think made videos for Tom. I think directors also that there's a niche directors also that there's a niche directors also that there's a niche there that they quite like that they get there that they quite like that they get there that they quite like that they get these little five, six minute songs. So, these little five, six minute songs. So, these little five, six minute songs. So, whether I have the musical rigor and whether I have the musical rigor and whether I have the musical rigor and capacity to do capacity to do capacity to do that thing, music soundtracks, I don't that thing, music soundtracks, I don't that thing, music soundtracks, I don't know. I definitely would like to do it know. I definitely would like to do it know. I definitely would like to do it someday, but I don't feel I'm ready for someday, but I don't feel I'm ready for someday, but I don't feel I'm ready for it now. I want to I want to just explore it now. I want to I want to just explore it now. I want to I want to just explore I want to just make my own music at the I want to just make my own music at the I want to just make my own music at the moment. moment. moment. >> You referred >> You referred >> You referred uh uh uh your depression as a a dark night of the your depression as a a dark night of the your depression as a a dark night of the soul or this hero's journey. There's soul or this hero's journey. There's soul or this hero's journey. There's lots of lots of lots of um um um phrases that you can kind of attach to phrases that you can kind of attach to phrases that you can kind of attach to what it's like to be in that state of of what it's like to be in that state of of what it's like to be in that state of of confusion and despair. confusion and despair. confusion and despair. The the sort of The the sort of The the sort of perpetually dissatisfied caterpillar perpetually dissatisfied caterpillar perpetually dissatisfied caterpillar that goes into the chrysalis and emerges that goes into the chrysalis and emerges that goes into the chrysalis and emerges as the blue morpho as the blue morpho as the blue morpho butterfly. What are the lessons butterfly. What are the lessons butterfly. What are the lessons that you have learned from going through that you have learned from going through that you have learned from going through this process that this process that this process that you want people to understand you want people to understand you want people to understand so that they can engage with their own so that they can engage with their own so that they can engage with their own challenges challenges challenges similarly. Like what is the wisdom similarly. Like what is the wisdom similarly. Like what is the wisdom that you've come out of these that you've come out of these that you've come out of these experiences? experiences? experiences? >> Yeah, it's okay. This is a well-worn >> Yeah, it's okay. This is a well-worn >> Yeah, it's okay. This is a well-worn journey and I love journey and I love journey and I love this expression that you Americans have. this expression that you Americans have. this expression that you Americans have. You've got this. You've got this. You've got this. You really have got this. If you can You really have got this. If you can You really have got this. If you can lean into it lean into it lean into it and and and you know, obviously there are various you know, obviously there are various you know, obviously there are various versions of it and I'm not talking about versions of it and I'm not talking about versions of it and I'm not talking about a version whereby I'm about to take my a version whereby I'm about to take my a version whereby I'm about to take my own life. own life. own life. Mine was not as acute as that. Mine was not as acute as that. Mine was not as acute as that. So, that's a whole other level. So, that's a whole other level. So, that's a whole other level. You need you know, you but for me, I'm You need you know, you but for me, I'm You need you know, you but for me, I'm so thankful for having gone through that so thankful for having gone through that so thankful for having gone through that journey. I am journey. I am journey. I am I would go that go through that again I would go that go through that again I would go that go through that again and because when you come out the other and because when you come out the other and because when you come out the other side side side and the transformation and the evolution and the transformation and the evolution and the transformation and the evolution and the gains that are to be had are so and the gains that are to be had are so and the gains that are to be had are so extraordinary. And how I feel now and extraordinary. And how I feel now and extraordinary. And how I feel now and the clarity that I have and I haven't the clarity that I have and I haven't the clarity that I have and I haven't had depression since then. had depression since then. had depression since then. I feel like I'm a whole. As you can I feel like I'm a whole. As you can I feel like I'm a whole. As you can tell, I never I don't have like you you tell, I never I don't have like you you tell, I never I don't have like you you need this this this. need this this this. need this this this. I'm I'm that very digress it it's I'm I'm that very digress it it's I'm I'm that very digress it it's it's okay and actually it's okay and actually it's okay and actually again back to my original thing, if you again back to my original thing, if you again back to my original thing, if you can frame what you're going through as can frame what you're going through as can frame what you're going through as part of the arc of your journey as this part of the arc of your journey as this part of the arc of your journey as this is just a moment. This too shall pass. is just a moment. This too shall pass. is just a moment. This too shall pass. But the thing that you will grow from But the thing that you will grow from But the thing that you will grow from this will be extraordinary and the this will be extraordinary and the this will be extraordinary and the clarity that you'll have and the peace clarity that you'll have and the peace clarity that you'll have and the peace that you'll find. that you'll find. that you'll find. You will look back on that time You will look back on that time You will look back on that time and even though you're in the middle of and even though you're in the middle of and even though you're in the middle of it and it's supremely uncomfortable, you it and it's supremely uncomfortable, you it and it's supremely uncomfortable, you look back and you go look back and you go look back and you go I got through this. I held on. You know, I got through this. I held on. You know, I got through this. I held on. You know, some days it's one foot in front of the some days it's one foot in front of the some days it's one foot in front of the other. Other days it's just literally other. Other days it's just literally other. Other days it's just literally holding on. holding on. holding on. >> It's interesting that >> It's interesting that >> It's interesting that we have the choice to we have the choice to we have the choice to basically perceive anything that happens basically perceive anything that happens basically perceive anything that happens to us as an opportunity for growth and to us as an opportunity for growth and to us as an opportunity for growth and transformation. transformation. transformation. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But if you're in that deep state of >> But if you're in that deep state of >> But if you're in that deep state of despair or, you know, just in the dark despair or, you know, just in the dark despair or, you know, just in the dark to say to that person like this too to say to that person like this too to say to that person like this too shall pass or, you know, you're going to shall pass or, you know, you're going to shall pass or, you know, you're going to look back on this and be grateful and look back on this and be grateful and look back on this and be grateful and you're going to learn so much. you're going to learn so much. you're going to learn so much. That's very difficult, right? Like Like That's very difficult, right? Like Like That's very difficult, right? Like Like is there like anything that you've is there like anything that you've is there like anything that you've learned that you can share with somebody learned that you can share with somebody learned that you can share with somebody who is in that state to help them who is in that state to help them who is in that state to help them avoid a little bit of unnecessary avoid a little bit of unnecessary avoid a little bit of unnecessary suffering? suffering? suffering? >> don't think you just sit there and wait >> don't think you just sit there and wait >> don't think you just sit there and wait for it to pass. I think there has to be for it to pass. I think there has to be for it to pass. I think there has to be you have to try and figure out what it you have to try and figure out what it you have to try and figure out what it is. is. is. And that can be a multitude of things, And that can be a multitude of things, And that can be a multitude of things, right? Like I said, like I went through right? Like I said, like I went through right? Like I said, like I went through the whole thing. It can be the whole thing. It can be the whole thing. It can be you know, if if I if I were to eat a you know, if if I if I were to eat a you know, if if I if I were to eat a diet of junk food and take loads of diet of junk food and take loads of diet of junk food and take loads of drugs and just spend my time on my phone drugs and just spend my time on my phone drugs and just spend my time on my phone on social media, I'd be in a terrible on social media, I'd be in a terrible on social media, I'd be in a terrible place. place. place. So, you know, like you said, lifestyle So, you know, like you said, lifestyle So, you know, like you said, lifestyle things are huge. And in fact in many things are huge. And in fact in many things are huge. And in fact in many ways that I think those thinking about ways that I think those thinking about ways that I think those thinking about it, those things are super helpful. it, those things are super helpful. it, those things are super helpful. Lifestyle changes are super helpful in Lifestyle changes are super helpful in Lifestyle changes are super helpful in the in the moment to propel you forward the in the moment to propel you forward the in the moment to propel you forward out of that. But out of that. But out of that. But the other thing is the other thing is the other thing is it would as I keep as I sort of alluded it would as I keep as I sort of alluded it would as I keep as I sort of alluded to is to is to is the thing that I actually tell friends the thing that I actually tell friends the thing that I actually tell friends when they're going through this then, when they're going through this then, when they're going through this then, you know, I've had friends going through you know, I've had friends going through you know, I've had friends going through it. it. it. The I guess the best advice that I said The I guess the best advice that I said The I guess the best advice that I said learn to meditate. learn to meditate. learn to meditate. That's a practical thing, but there's That's a practical thing, but there's That's a practical thing, but there's something in that something in that something in that that it's you're being proactive. that it's you're being proactive. that it's you're being proactive. But you're allowing the healing to But you're allowing the healing to But you're allowing the healing to happen because, you know, what you're happen because, you know, what you're happen because, you know, what you're reaching is a place of so I mean, I I reaching is a place of so I mean, I I reaching is a place of so I mean, I I truly believe that every child on this truly believe that every child on this truly believe that every child on this planet should be taught at school the planet should be taught at school the planet should be taught at school the ability mindfulness and meditation as a ability mindfulness and meditation as a ability mindfulness and meditation as a coping mechanism because so much of it coping mechanism because so much of it coping mechanism because so much of it is about that. is about that. is about that. >> 100%. I feel like you would >> 100%. I feel like you would >> 100%. I feel like you would you would do well living out of Malibu. you would do well living out of Malibu. you would do well living out of Malibu. You're kind of like this You're kind of like this You're kind of like this you're a wellness influencer, Ed. You you're a wellness influencer, Ed. You you're a wellness influencer, Ed. You know, like you you you grew up with know, like you you you grew up with know, like you you you grew up with osteopaths as parents. osteopaths as parents. osteopaths as parents. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh you're into acupuncture, meditation, >> Uh you're into acupuncture, meditation, >> Uh you're into acupuncture, meditation, healthy eating, immersion in nature, healthy eating, immersion in nature, healthy eating, immersion in nature, you know, Buddhism, past life like you know, Buddhism, past life like you know, Buddhism, past life like you're just I mean, you're just I mean, you're just I mean, >> Yeah, I know. I'm I'm a I'm a walking >> Yeah, I know. I'm I'm a I'm a walking >> Yeah, I know. I'm I'm a I'm a walking flipping Malibu cliche. flipping Malibu cliche. flipping Malibu cliche. >> Like, you know, you're an easy fit out >> Like, you know, you're an easy fit out >> Like, you know, you're an easy fit out here. How does that work in the in the here. How does that work in the in the here. How does that work in the in the UK? Is this still um UK? Is this still um UK? Is this still um these novel ideas these novel ideas these novel ideas >> Yeah, I mean, I've >> Yeah, I mean, I've >> Yeah, I mean, I've >> in the community of friends? >> in the community of friends? >> in the community of friends? >> funny. I think I've always resonated >> funny. I think I've always resonated >> funny. I think I've always resonated with the West Coast spirit. I've always with the West Coast spirit. I've always with the West Coast spirit. I've always I mean, what I've loved about I mean, what I've loved about I mean, what I've loved about California and out here is this California and out here is this California and out here is this openness. And I think a lot of people openness. And I think a lot of people openness. And I think a lot of people out here are seeking. out here are seeking. out here are seeking. And I'm a seeker. And I'm a seeker. And I'm a seeker. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I've loved the openness like, oh, >> And I've loved the openness like, oh, >> And I've loved the openness like, oh, I'm going to try that. My grandmother I'm going to try that. My grandmother I'm going to try that. My grandmother was American American, so I came over to was American American, so I came over to was American American, so I came over to America from America from America from you know, from age 13. you know, from age 13. you know, from age 13. And I loved And I loved And I loved that sense of you can do this. You've that sense of you can do this. You've that sense of you can do this. You've got this. got this. got this. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> That openness. And whereas Britain is >> That openness. And whereas Britain is >> That openness. And whereas Britain is all about, oh, you can't do that, mate. all about, oh, you can't do that, mate. all about, oh, you can't do that, mate. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. What are you going to do that? No, no. What are you going to do that? No, no. What are you going to do that? No, no. You know, and I've loved that thing that You know, and I've loved that thing that You know, and I've loved that thing that openness so embracing different things. openness so embracing different things. openness so embracing different things. So, I'd try that. And that's my journey. So, I'd try that. And that's my journey. So, I'd try that. And that's my journey. My journey is not like I don't have some My journey is not like I don't have some My journey is not like I don't have some guru. I haven't lived in a community guru. I haven't lived in a community guru. I haven't lived in a community like Malibu. And so, oh, you need to do like Malibu. And so, oh, you need to do like Malibu. And so, oh, you need to do this. Mine is this. Mine is this. Mine is uh entirely uh entirely uh entirely uh it it it it is just experience uh it it it it is just experience uh it it it it is just experience experiential. I've got I've tried that. experiential. I've got I've tried that. experiential. I've got I've tried that. And things come on my path and I've And things come on my path and I've And things come on my path and I've tried lots of things that don't work. tried lots of things that don't work. tried lots of things that don't work. Where I've come to is just Where I've come to is just Where I've come to is just these are things I figured out for these are things I figured out for these are things I figured out for myself. And and and you know, you're not myself. And and and you know, you're not myself. And and and you know, you're not going to do meditation and have a going to do meditation and have a going to do meditation and have a meditative practice unless there's meditative practice unless there's meditative practice unless there's something there cuz it's it's a something there cuz it's it's a something there cuz it's it's a commitment. commitment. commitment. Same thing with giving up booze. If that Same thing with giving up booze. If that Same thing with giving up booze. If that doesn't work and live and eating well if doesn't work and live and eating well if doesn't work and live and eating well if if that makes you that doesn't change if that makes you that doesn't change if that makes you that doesn't change how you feel you what's the point of how you feel you what's the point of how you feel you what's the point of investing that? I'll go back cuz getting investing that? I'll go back cuz getting investing that? I'll go back cuz getting drunk was great. You know, so well it drunk was great. You know, so well it drunk was great. You know, so well it wasn't but um wasn't but um wasn't but um Yeah, so Britain wasn't like that but Yeah, so Britain wasn't like that but Yeah, so Britain wasn't like that but it's it's the dial is shifting another it's it's the dial is shifting another it's it's the dial is shifting another generation. I was definitely um generation. I was definitely um generation. I was definitely um you know, I went to see a healer 25 you know, I went to see a healer 25 you know, I went to see a healer 25 years ago and years ago and years ago and my wife and I my wife and I my wife and I had to keep it pretty quiet. I I haven't had to keep it pretty quiet. I I haven't had to keep it pretty quiet. I I haven't even ever told my father cuz my father even ever told my father cuz my father even ever told my father cuz my father is an osteopath and he goes like it's is an osteopath and he goes like it's is an osteopath and he goes like it's all nonsense. all nonsense. all nonsense. I haven't even told him. He doesn't I haven't even told him. He doesn't I haven't even told him. He doesn't know. know. know. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Cuz I again I didn't have the courage to >> Cuz I again I didn't have the courage to >> Cuz I again I didn't have the courage to go like well, you know, [ __ ] you. I went go like well, you know, [ __ ] you. I went go like well, you know, [ __ ] you. I went and it was good and you know, whereas I and it was good and you know, whereas I and it was good and you know, whereas I come to I come to California they go oh come to I come to California they go oh come to I come to California they go oh yeah, which healer did you see? Oh yeah, yeah, which healer did you see? Oh yeah, yeah, which healer did you see? Oh yeah, we saw him. we saw him. we saw him. You need to see that one or You need to see that one or You need to see that one or was that the one that Oprah went to see? was that the one that Oprah went to see? was that the one that Oprah went to see? Yeah, so it Yeah, so it Yeah, so it I've I what is it about this place? You I've I what is it about this place? You I've I what is it about this place? You you you I mean you're on the Atlantic you you I mean you're on the Atlantic you you I mean you're on the Atlantic you you're on the Pacific rather. You you you're on the Pacific rather. You you you're on the Pacific rather. You know, you've got Asia which a lot of know, you've got Asia which a lot of know, you've got Asia which a lot of this stuff has come from Asia, right? this stuff has come from Asia, right? this stuff has come from Asia, right? You know, you've you've you've had them You know, you've you've you've had them You know, you've you've you've had them and I mean I guess that's what it is. and I mean I guess that's what it is. and I mean I guess that's what it is. Your influence from Asia is far stronger Your influence from Asia is far stronger Your influence from Asia is far stronger cuz you're nearer and certainly over the cuz you're nearer and certainly over the cuz you're nearer and certainly over the top from Seattle all the way down. top from Seattle all the way down. top from Seattle all the way down. You've had this influence of Asia from You've had this influence of Asia from You've had this influence of Asia from the from the Pacific whereas we haven't the from the Pacific whereas we haven't the from the Pacific whereas we haven't had that. We're really on the other side had that. We're really on the other side had that. We're really on the other side of the world but we gradually in the 60s of the world but we gradually in the 60s of the world but we gradually in the 60s stuff came through but stuff came through but stuff came through but there's something about this land here, there's something about this land here, there's something about this land here, isn't there? There's something about I isn't there? There's something about I isn't there? There's something about I always used to find this you know, on always used to find this you know, on always used to find this you know, on tour in America. tour in America. tour in America. You'd arrive and you should come from You'd arrive and you should come from You'd arrive and you should come from the the north the the north the the north from playing in Oregon. And the moment from playing in Oregon. And the moment from playing in Oregon. And the moment you crossed into California, there's you crossed into California, there's you crossed into California, there's something about the light. There's something about the light. There's something about the light. There's something about the energy. something about the energy. something about the energy. And that supports And that supports And that supports seekers and that supports this thing and seekers and that supports this thing and seekers and that supports this thing and maybe it's an abundance of maybe it's an abundance of maybe it's an abundance of spirit in nature. Maybe spirit in nature. Maybe spirit in nature. Maybe I don't know. You you probably know I don't know. You you probably know I don't know. You you probably know better that better that better that >> Well, I think also Los Angeles was >> Well, I think also Los Angeles was >> Well, I think also Los Angeles was you know, this is historically the place you know, this is historically the place you know, this is historically the place of dreamers. You know, the dreamers, the of dreamers. You know, the dreamers, the of dreamers. You know, the dreamers, the people with the imagination, the artists people with the imagination, the artists people with the imagination, the artists gravitated here. Uh and there's a gravitated here. Uh and there's a gravitated here. Uh and there's a permissiveness. It sort of didn't permissiveness. It sort of didn't permissiveness. It sort of didn't it wasn't developed it wasn't developed it wasn't developed with with with a history. And so it was written a history. And so it was written a history. And so it was written outside of outside of outside of the like rules and structures. Uh I the like rules and structures. Uh I the like rules and structures. Uh I think it attracted people who wanted to think it attracted people who wanted to think it attracted people who wanted to get away from that. get away from that. get away from that. >> Yeah. So there you know, the free >> Yeah. So there you know, the free >> Yeah. So there you know, the free thinking thing thinking thing thinking thing is it's just it's just a more is it's just it's just a more is it's just it's just a more permissive environment for that, I permissive environment for that, I permissive environment for that, I think. For better or worse, you know. think. For better or worse, you know. think. For better or worse, you know. But on that note, you've evolved as an But on that note, you've evolved as an But on that note, you've evolved as an artist as well as a songwriter as a artist as well as a songwriter as a artist as well as a songwriter as a musician, a vocalist. musician, a vocalist. musician, a vocalist. We talked about uh We talked about uh We talked about uh embracing uncertainty and embracing uncertainty and embracing uncertainty and as you become more whole as you become more whole as you become more whole creating this this greater access to creating this this greater access to creating this this greater access to your own personal truth and how that your own personal truth and how that your own personal truth and how that ends up in your music. ends up in your music. ends up in your music. So what is the message that you have for So what is the message that you have for So what is the message that you have for the aspiring artist or musician out the aspiring artist or musician out the aspiring artist or musician out there who's trying to there who's trying to there who's trying to up-level their relationship with up-level their relationship with up-level their relationship with creativity? creativity? creativity? >> To thine own self be true. I mean, you >> To thine own self be true. I mean, you >> To thine own self be true. I mean, you know, be true to yourself. That is the know, be true to yourself. That is the know, be true to yourself. That is the absolute key. And you got to figure out absolute key. And you got to figure out absolute key. And you got to figure out what that is cuz I spent for years what that is cuz I spent for years what that is cuz I spent for years hiding my hiding. Didn't know what I hiding my hiding. Didn't know what I hiding my hiding. Didn't know what I really felt or didn't allow myself. I really felt or didn't allow myself. I really felt or didn't allow myself. I thought I should thought I should thought I should feel. It's that you've got to be feel. It's that you've got to be feel. It's that you've got to be supremely honest to what you to your supremely honest to what you to your supremely honest to what you to your truth. truth. truth. There's obviously a commercial aspect There's obviously a commercial aspect There's obviously a commercial aspect which is can get make things very which is can get make things very which is can get make things very confusing, but you never make music for confusing, but you never make music for confusing, but you never make music for other people. You make it for yourself, other people. You make it for yourself, other people. You make it for yourself, first and foremost. You cannot first and foremost. You cannot first and foremost. You cannot second-guess what people There's no second-guess what people There's no second-guess what people There's no idea. You have to It has to move you. idea. You have to It has to move you. idea. You have to It has to move you. I think what I realized is that you make I think what I realized is that you make I think what I realized is that you make music that you want to hear. music that you want to hear. music that you want to hear. I don't like my music feels like there's I don't like my music feels like there's I don't like my music feels like there's sort of a malcolm of things, and I think sort of a malcolm of things, and I think sort of a malcolm of things, and I think in a way I'm trying to make music that in a way I'm trying to make music that in a way I'm trying to make music that Yeah, that that I haven't got in my Yeah, that that I haven't got in my Yeah, that that I haven't got in my library or and so library or and so library or and so but that's How do I do that? By being but that's How do I do that? By being but that's How do I do that? By being true to myself. true to myself. true to myself. >> Yeah. Especially with AI, all we have is >> Yeah. Especially with AI, all we have is >> Yeah. Especially with AI, all we have is our perspective. our perspective. our perspective. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And our experience and our >> And our experience and our >> And our experience and our >> all different. We're all unique, and >> all different. We're all unique, and >> all different. We're all unique, and that's what makes it so amazing, and that's what makes it so amazing, and that's what makes it so amazing, and it's you know, and it It's It can be it's you know, and it It's It can be it's you know, and it It's It can be scary cuz, you know, nobody likes to be scary cuz, you know, nobody likes to be scary cuz, you know, nobody likes to be judged. judged. judged. You know? You know? You know? But it's all right. It's just There's But it's all right. It's just There's But it's all right. It's just There's lots of music out there. lots of music out there. lots of music out there. >> And then your album just came out. So, >> And then your album just came out. So, >> And then your album just came out. So, what did Do you read reviews? Do you what did Do you read reviews? Do you what did Do you read reviews? Do you like You don't You don't care. like You don't You don't care. like You don't You don't care. >> read a review since OK Computer, >> read a review since OK Computer, >> read a review since OK Computer, since April 1997. since April 1997. since April 1997. Cuz it They were so good. Cuz it They were so good. Cuz it They were so good. And I realized there was this whole And I realized there was this whole And I realized there was this whole thing that reviews thing that reviews thing that reviews can create sort of Well, at that time can create sort of Well, at that time can create sort of Well, at that time they were able to create heaven or hell. they were able to create heaven or hell. they were able to create heaven or hell. You know, a bad review was horrific, and You know, a bad review was horrific, and You know, a bad review was horrific, and a good review, oh, brilliant. That's not a good review, oh, brilliant. That's not a good review, oh, brilliant. That's not a healthy state of mind. And then you a healthy state of mind. And then you a healthy state of mind. And then you realize, of course, the review is that's realize, of course, the review is that's realize, of course, the review is that's their unique filter, how are they their unique filter, how are they their unique filter, how are they feeling that day, feeling that day, feeling that day, how do they feel about you as an artist? how do they feel about you as an artist? how do they feel about you as an artist? Is that tainted by It's like Is that tainted by It's like Is that tainted by It's like I I I It's really liberating not reading I I I It's really liberating not reading I I I It's really liberating not reading what people write about you cuz, again, what people write about you cuz, again, what people write about you cuz, again, it's that thing back to what I said you it's that thing back to what I said you it's that thing back to what I said you You then don't walk around with You then don't walk around with You then don't walk around with uh this notion that you're either uh this notion that you're either uh this notion that you're either important or you're not important. You important or you're not important. You important or you're not important. You just you just be. That's the That's the just you just be. That's the That's the just you just be. That's the That's the essence. Just be. Just do it. essence. Just be. Just do it. essence. Just be. Just do it. >> So, the band's getting back together >> So, the band's getting back together >> So, the band's getting back together again. Radiohead, you guys are touring. again. Radiohead, you guys are touring. again. Radiohead, you guys are touring. >> Yeah, we did we did it Well, it's not >> Yeah, we did we did it Well, it's not >> Yeah, we did we did it Well, it's not like we're getting back together again, like we're getting back together again, like we're getting back together again, but we did a tour, yeah. but we did a tour, yeah. but we did a tour, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How is the health of Radiohead? How has >> How is the health of Radiohead? How has >> How is the health of Radiohead? How has your role in that band evolved as a your role in that band evolved as a your role in that band evolved as a result of stepping out on your own? Like result of stepping out on your own? Like result of stepping out on your own? Like how has that worked? how has that worked? how has that worked? >> changed at all. I mean, I think it's >> changed at all. I mean, I think it's >> changed at all. I mean, I think it's just what was nice about it was just what was nice about it was just what was nice about it was it feels very democratic. it feels very democratic. it feels very democratic. Uh Uh Uh which is kind of its strength. which is kind of its strength. which is kind of its strength. I felt like with that touring I just had an enormous sense of I just had an enormous sense of gratitude gratitude gratitude because because because in so many ways that in so many ways that in so many ways that to be doing this with my brothers and to be doing this with my brothers and to be doing this with my brothers and >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I say my brothers, but I it does feel >> I say my brothers, but I it does feel >> I say my brothers, but I it does feel like a brotherhood. like a brotherhood. like a brotherhood. It's that kind of depth It's that kind of depth It's that kind of depth >> You have that. >> You have that. >> You have that. >> You know, like you do in families, you >> You know, like you do in families, you >> You know, like you do in families, you have have have you know, when you serve up a meal you know, when you serve up a meal you know, when you serve up a meal you know your you know your sister you know your you know your sister you know your you know your sister doesn't like ketchup. You don't you doesn't like ketchup. You don't you doesn't like ketchup. You don't you know, and you know she doesn't Likewise, know, and you know she doesn't Likewise, know, and you know she doesn't Likewise, all these these bits of intimate all these these bits of intimate all these these bits of intimate knowledge I have the same thing with knowledge I have the same thing with knowledge I have the same thing with these guys without even reason. I know these guys without even reason. I know these guys without even reason. I know that that that I don't know that Colin doesn't like I don't know that Colin doesn't like I don't know that Colin doesn't like coleslaw. coleslaw. coleslaw. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But he you know, and but see you have >> But he you know, and but see you have >> But he you know, and but see you have all this incredibly detailed it's just all this incredibly detailed it's just all this incredibly detailed it's just there cuz you've grown up together. there cuz you've grown up together. there cuz you've grown up together. Uh so Uh so Uh so it just it just it just again, it feels really simple. It's just again, it feels really simple. It's just again, it feels really simple. It's just really lovely to be playing these really lovely to be playing these really lovely to be playing these these these songs these these lovely these these songs these these lovely these these songs these these lovely songs songs songs with people who are you've had this long with people who are you've had this long with people who are you've had this long journey with journey with journey with who are supreme musicians who are supreme musicians who are supreme musicians really good people really good people really good people at heart and at heart and at heart and yeah, I mean, that's what And and how yeah, I mean, that's what And and how yeah, I mean, that's what And and how lucky are we that lucky are we that lucky are we that people want to come and see it and these people want to come and see it and these people want to come and see it and these songs move people and um songs move people and um songs move people and um And And I think that's the thing when we And And I think that's the thing when we And And I think that's the thing when we played live, we were just we were sort played live, we were just we were sort played live, we were just we were sort of of of It was just It was extraordinary. It was It was just It was extraordinary. It was It was just It was extraordinary. It was very, very emotional and we found it very, very emotional and we found it very, very emotional and we found it very emotional and very emotional and very emotional and on those levels of we could sort of on those levels of we could sort of on those levels of we could sort of we've been doing this now for a while we've been doing this now for a while we've been doing this now for a while and we hadn't done it for a while. So, and we hadn't done it for a while. So, and we hadn't done it for a while. So, but but but we've been playing songs together for we've been playing songs together for we've been playing songs together for many years and many years and many years and they're emotional. They're deep songs they're emotional. They're deep songs they're emotional. They're deep songs and there's a beauty there. And people and there's a beauty there. And people and there's a beauty there. And people want to see it. I heard you uh want to see it. I heard you uh want to see it. I heard you uh >> say in another interview uh that you >> say in another interview uh that you >> say in another interview uh that you hadn't listened to a lot of the songs hadn't listened to a lot of the songs hadn't listened to a lot of the songs for a long time and then when you kind for a long time and then when you kind for a long time and then when you kind of went back and you're you're getting of went back and you're you're getting of went back and you're you're getting into the tour again, you're like, into the tour again, you're like, into the tour again, you're like, These are good songs. Like it's These are good songs. Like it's These are good songs. Like it's >> I know. >> I know. >> I know. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I know that sounds >> I know that sounds >> I know that sounds >> actually >> actually >> actually >> Everyone's always laughing when I said >> Everyone's always laughing when I said >> Everyone's always laughing when I said that, but that was my feeling. It was that, but that was my feeling. It was that, but that was my feeling. It was cuz when you're doing them, I think cuz when you're doing them, I think cuz when you're doing them, I think because because because with Radiohead, there was this sort of with Radiohead, there was this sort of with Radiohead, there was this sort of And again, it comes to could do better. And again, it comes to could do better. And again, it comes to could do better. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I think that was the universal thing >> And I think that was the universal thing >> And I think that was the universal thing for all of us. It was for all of us. It was for all of us. It was We just continue. You've got to do more. We just continue. You've got to do more. We just continue. You've got to do more. You've got to get better, better, You've got to get better, better, You've got to get better, better, better. So, better. So, better. So, you never appreciated what you'd done. you never appreciated what you'd done. you never appreciated what you'd done. And it was so nice and And it was so nice and And it was so nice and going through we we didn't have any new going through we we didn't have any new going through we we didn't have any new material to to to to have to find or material to to to to have to find or material to to to to have to find or work on or work on or work on or we would just being and you go, "Wow, we would just being and you go, "Wow, we would just being and you go, "Wow, that song's really" And not having that song's really" And not having that song's really" And not having played them for 7, 8 years. played them for 7, 8 years. played them for 7, 8 years. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, that's >> So, that's >> So, that's >> I would imagine it takes some real >> I would imagine it takes some real >> I would imagine it takes some real intentionality and conscious effort intentionality and conscious effort intentionality and conscious effort to maintain the health of all of these to maintain the health of all of these to maintain the health of all of these relationships. relationships. relationships. What is it that you and the members of What is it that you and the members of What is it that you and the members of the band have done to like protect the the band have done to like protect the the band have done to like protect the sanctity sanctity sanctity of those bonds so that you can continue of those bonds so that you can continue of those bonds so that you can continue to, you know, play music together so to, you know, play music together so to, you know, play music together so many years later. many years later. many years later. >> Well, we >> Well, we >> Well, we We haven't done any We haven't done any We haven't done any We haven't done any We haven't done any We haven't done any group therapy. group therapy. group therapy. >> Yeah, is it >> Yeah, is it >> Yeah, is it >> Which at times that would have been a >> Which at times that would have been a >> Which at times that would have been a good thing to do. Yeah, no and and full good thing to do. Yeah, no and and full good thing to do. Yeah, no and and full credit to them and I think you know, credit to them and I think you know, credit to them and I think you know, the band's inherently dysfunctional so the band's inherently dysfunctional so the band's inherently dysfunctional so group therapy is not a bad idea. I mean, group therapy is not a bad idea. I mean, group therapy is not a bad idea. I mean, I think I think I think what we did was we've just gone away what we did was we've just gone away what we did was we've just gone away from one another and from one another and from one another and everybody's moved forward and everybody's moved forward and everybody's moved forward and everybody's grown and everybody's done everybody's grown and everybody's done everybody's grown and everybody's done their own work if you like. their own work if you like. their own work if you like. I and I'm not saying they did therapy I and I'm not saying they did therapy I and I'm not saying they did therapy but it's that people have been but it's that people have been but it's that people have been You can see the You can see the You can see the age has been good age has been good age has been good to us in terms of to us in terms of to us in terms of fostering fostering fostering respect and love and and I just think respect and love and and I just think respect and love and and I just think at the end of that iteration of at the end of that iteration of at the end of that iteration of Radiohead in 2018 there were a lot of Radiohead in 2018 there were a lot of Radiohead in 2018 there were a lot of people around us people around us people around us and it got so big and and it got so big and and it got so big and Brian our manager sort of Brian our manager sort of Brian our manager sort of in the subsequent years we'd have in the subsequent years we'd have in the subsequent years we'd have meetings to bring it down to the five of meetings to bring it down to the five of meetings to bring it down to the five of us. us. us. And And And when you distill it to the five I mean when you distill it to the five I mean when you distill it to the five I mean that is Radiohead, you know, that is Radiohead, you know, that is Radiohead, you know, playing these songs that Thom has playing these songs that Thom has playing these songs that Thom has written and written and written and we add to and color and we add our own we add to and color and we add our own we add to and color and we add our own stuff but stuff but stuff but that's what it is and again it's quite that's what it is and again it's quite that's what it is and again it's quite simple but it's amazing how complex simple but it's amazing how complex simple but it's amazing how complex these things and you know, these things and you know, these things and you know, it's the classic stories of when you it's the classic stories of when you it's the classic stories of when you have a successful enterprise have a successful enterprise have a successful enterprise you can get people who attach themselves you can get people who attach themselves you can get people who attach themselves to it. to it. to it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Who >> Who >> Who aren't good for that. They're not good aren't good for that. They're not good aren't good for that. They're not good they're not part of it. They're not good they're not part of it. They're not good they're not part of it. They're not good for the soul but they they're trying to for the soul but they they're trying to for the soul but they they're trying to make themselves important in that make themselves important in that make themselves important in that organization. So we we've had a bit of organization. So we we've had a bit of organization. So we we've had a bit of you know, worming out to weeding. you know, worming out to weeding. you know, worming out to weeding. Some culling some weeding, yeah, Some culling some weeding, yeah, Some culling some weeding, yeah, definitely. definitely. definitely. >> I got to get you to the airport so I'm >> I got to get you to the airport so I'm >> I got to get you to the airport so I'm going to let you go but it was a real going to let you go but it was a real going to let you go but it was a real treat to talk to you. Uh congrats on the treat to talk to you. Uh congrats on the treat to talk to you. Uh congrats on the album. album. album. Um Um Um you're lovely. you're lovely. you're lovely. Uh I want only good things for you and Uh I want only good things for you and Uh I want only good things for you and this latest expression this latest expression this latest expression I think it's the first in many to come I think it's the first in many to come I think it's the first in many to come of you bringing full expression to your of you bringing full expression to your of you bringing full expression to your voice and I commend you for not only voice and I commend you for not only voice and I commend you for not only enduring what you did to give birth to enduring what you did to give birth to enduring what you did to give birth to this work of art this work of art this work of art but by being so open to sharing what but by being so open to sharing what but by being so open to sharing what that experience was like to help that experience was like to help that experience was like to help normalize the experience of going normalize the experience of going normalize the experience of going through difficult times. Powerful. through difficult times. Powerful. through difficult times. Powerful. >> Thank you, Rich. Yeah, >> Thank you, Rich. Yeah, >> Thank you, Rich. Yeah, well, right back at you. You know, the well, right back at you. You know, the well, right back at you. You know, the questions that you ask are questions that you ask are questions that you ask are you make it easy. Yeah, it's a flow. you make it easy. Yeah, it's a flow. you make it easy. Yeah, it's a flow. >> Good man. Well, come back and >> Good man. Well, come back and >> Good man. Well, come back and >> Yeah, I'd love to continue the >> Yeah, I'd love to continue the >> Yeah, I'd love to continue the conversation. Thank you. What a place. conversation. Thank you. What a place. conversation. Thank you. What a place. Look at this. Look at this. Look at this. >> Cheers. >> Cheers. >> Cheers. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thanks.