Psychologist: "Stress Is Destroying Your Relationships & Life!" Do This To Fix It! | Guy Winch

Key Takeaway

When you're mentally drained from work, relaxing alone won't recharge you. You need active recovery—doing something that energizes you, like exercise, creativity, or socializing. Relaxation is only 50% of recovery; the other 50% is recharging through activities that fill your battery. Your workday doesn't end when you close your laptop—it ends when you stop thinking about work.

Episode Overview

Dr. Guy Winch, psychologist and author of 'Mind Over Grind,' discusses how work stress infiltrates our relationships and mental health. He explains why awareness of burnout is rising while stress levels peak, how chronic work stress can numb our emotions and damage relationships, and provides practical psychological tools to create boundaries, stop rumination, and truly recover from work demands.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Psychologist: "Stress Is Destroying Your Relationships & Life!" Do This To Fix It! | Guy Winch from The School of Greatness. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

If you are stressed out at work, your partner who might not be working will start to develop symptoms of burnout. Really, that's how much the transfer happens. We think we manage it. We really don't. really don't. really don't. Psychologist and author and host of his own psychology podcast. His TED talk been viewed by over 4 million people. million people. million people. He's been working with individuals, couples. Please welcome Dr. Guy Winch. I've worked with many people who thought they had fallen out of love or whose partner suddenly changed and I'm like is it your partner who changed or is it you?

Is it your work stress that has become so chronic that you can't feel it? it? it? How can time travel reignite love or passion in a relationship? An exercise that I suggest to couples reenact one of the earlier dates you had in which you realized you started to have feelings for one another. Try and go through that first magical moment. couples who were able to do it were able to really kind of take it on as a fun project and even in prepping for it they were starting to get into the mindset.

Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. Stress is entirely psychological. The messaging is critical which is super useful because we can actually do it and it seems like a cheat but it's not a cheat. It's a cheat the other way when we keep using it in a negative way to stress ourselves out. What is one psychological way to manage our mind to overcome burnout in life? So, welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. Today I'm with the inspiring Guy Wench. And he is an internationally renowned psychologist and best-selling author and his talks have been viewed more than 35 million times and his science-based books have been translated into 30 plus languages.

Today, he's here to offer a guide to combating the many stresses modern work imposes on our relationships. Guy, I'm so pumped that you're here you're here you're here and it's a thrill to be here again. It's exciting, man. I'm excited about this and I have a powerful first question for you. Uh, a lot of people are struggling relationships today and I'm curious is the biggest reason that people are struggling in their relationships in their work relationships, romantic relationships, friendships having to do with the person they're in the relationship with or the wound they haven't healed within themsel yet?

Uh well, look, the wounds they haven't healed within themselves are probably causing them to make difficult choices in who they're in relationships with. The two are related. In other words, when you've healed the wounds within you, you are more likely to choose more healthy relationship partners and to form healthier relationships. And that includes the romantic, the personal friendships, and even work. We don't like to stay in unhealthy relationships when we feel healthy inside. healthy inside. healthy inside. That's true. So, if we're unhealthy inside or we have wounds inside and we have all these relationships already established with years of history, how do you start either unwinding those unhealthy patterns in those relationships?

Do you just eliminate all those relationships, those relationships, those relationships, you know, or do you take a look in the mirror and say, "Oh, I've got work to do in this in this part of the relationship." How do we start that once we're aware that we are having breakdown in multiple relationships? Well, you have to start with looking within yourself and like, so what is it about me that's choosing these kinds of people or these kinds of relationships? What is it about me that's tolerating staying in situations that are not great for me and that I might not even like?

A lot of people are in relationships that make them miserable, but they stay in them. them. them. Why? Why? Why? Many, many reasons. They tell themselves that that's the best they can do. It's a sunk cost kind of thing. Well, I've already invested all these years and I don't want to start looking because it's such a difficult marketplace out there as it were. I mean, it's very, you know, people are very afraid of starting over in that. So, let me just stay where I am. And then they find reasons, oh, maybe this is not too terrible today, so I guess it's okay.

When might not be terrible today, but it's generally not not great. Um but when you start to work on yourself and when you start to change two things will happen. You will either start making different choices or you will start changing in such a way that certain people will just drop out because you're not fun for them anymore. They don't get away with their stuff anymore because you're starting to set limits. You're starting to be more assertive. You're starting to set expectations. And so suddenly, mm- this is not working for me.

I like running rough showed or I like being, you know, like uh the boss of this or I like things my way entirely. People will drop out. out. out. They'll start to fade away. You know, or you'll have so much conflict that you'll drop out. You'll be like, "Ah, this just doesn't work." doesn't work." doesn't work." It's one or the other. But there is a cleaning house that often happens when people really start to change. What age do people start waking up around seeing if their relationships in their life are working for them or not?

Is there a season of life that usually people are like, "Huh, you know, I'm 25 or I'm 30 now and like, oh, these high school or college friends, maybe I'm not that same person anymore or the relationship I've been in for six or seven years. I'm not who I was when I started that relationship." Is there a season that people usually wake up to recognizing if the relationships are working or not? So, when I was younger, there used to be this thing called like the midlife crisis, which was never a thing.

Yes. But that they called it a midlife crisis and it happened around 40 which is also not where midlife is really. Um but that was when people start to second guess but it's actually about circumstances. So for example when there external stresses that happen on the relationship we saw it during the pandemic. We saw it after 9/11 when something big happens in the world that stresses the relationship. It forces a contemplation. contemplation. contemplation. It forces you to start to think like is this working? And it either brings people closer or it pushes them apart.

Really, Really, Really, how does someone create that artificially without having, you know, a war or some pandemic? How do you create that to see if you're with the right person? You know, it's interesting when when when uh I used to teach couples therapy and and one of the um things, one of the wisdoms of coup's therapy is and family therapy, it's the same thing because it's a system is that they will not change unless they're in crisis because they're too comfortable. And change is uncomfortable. But in a crisis, you're already uncomfortable.

You're more likely to change. And so some of the wisdoms, if they're not in crisis, put them in crisis. as a therapist, put pressure on them so that the crisis happens and they're forced to examine. examine. examine. What are some ways you can put crisis on a relationship? a relationship? a relationship? So, not as a therapist because I'm not suggesting everyone rushes to couple therapist and say, "Stress us out." We don't that either. That's not the best, you know, use of it. But is to actually self-examine.

It's actually to have a conversation first with yourself. I mean, first get clarity within you. Is this working for me? Is it not? And it's not a yes or no. It's like what is working? What isn't? Am I generally happy? We in a society today where we're we're all, you know, the part of the thing about the grind is that when we're in the grind, it's work. It's everywhere. Our head is down. We just go from thing to thing to thing. We don't pause to lift our head up and go, "Wait, is this working for me?

Am I happy? Is this where I want to be going? Is this where I want to be?" We just keep going in this autopilot mode. And when we're in autopilot mode, we often fly into the face of the cliff. And so it's just lifting your head and starting to ask yourself the important questions that alone can start not putting you in crisis but start alerting you and then once you start having those conversations with the other people then then you start getting somewhere in terms of do I have a partner here.

Your book, Mind Over Grind: How to Break Free When Work Hijacks Your Life, talks a lot about how to overcome burnout and kind of this stress that you just mentioned where it's just like, you know, people are on autopilot of just working very hard that it's hard to have emotional space to have fun and have joy and love and peace and harmony in your relationships outside of work. It sounds like for a lot of people if they don't know how to create boundaries or structure or space or time away.

Um do you feel like work is one of the biggest reasons why people are struggling in intimate relationships if they don't know how to navigate work? Work has a huge impact on our relationships outside of work as well. And when I was doing research for this book, I was so stunned by some of the research and and what it was saying. Like there's research that shows that if you are stressed out at work, your partner who might not be working will start to develop symptoms of burnout.

Really, Really, Really, that's how much the transfer happens, the spillover into your home life. When you are stressed out at work, your partner can lose their sex drive because primarily you're no fun to be around. And I don't mean you personally, um, but you know, but that's the thing. We we we think we manage it. we really don't manage it at all. And so this grind is we just keep going but without asking ourselves a question. But yes, it's really impacting our relationship. There's other research that shows that when somebody is really stressed and pressured at work, they will not only fall down on their responsibilities at home with the kids, with their partners, they will actively undermine their partner within their home unconsciously, not even being aware necessarily that they're doing it.

How what does that look like? They'll undermine their partner at home. What is that? What are some ways? Here's an example. You're you come home from work. you you had a very very long and stressful day and you know the kids run to your partner and say hey can I have another cookie can I watch TV can I spend another hour on the iPad and your partner appropriately says no okay and then they'll run to you hey can I have a cookie iPad hour etc and you'll be like yeah fine whatever and it won't even occur to you like wait let me check with them actually what are the rules what is the thing because you're checked out so you know you're you're Doing that we we bring home resentment sometimes from work toward home because home doesn't get our families don't get how stressed out we are what we had to go through all day.

Do you think people's lack of work life balance then is causing them to feel stressed at home or is work life balance a myth? Work life balance is not a myth but I think it exists primarily or needs to in our own head. The work life balance is how we psychologically think about our work and our personal life, our professional identity and our personal or family identity. those boundaries get confused in our heads. And what happens is that when our work gets very demanding and by the way this happens when we are engaged with our work, when we love our work, when we're passionate about our work, we lose the boundaries between that and we start to amputate aspects of ourselves one by one.

We start to push them aside. We start to lose them. We start to lose touch with them. And we become two-dimensional workers. We become true drones in doing what we're doing and feeling, oh, we're happy in what we're doing. But we're not really because we just neglected entire aspects of our personality, our relationships, of our life outside of work. And it happens gradually usually and and and before we know it, it's just that. Here's a thought experiment I suggest people do. If tomorrow work was taken away, something was erased and you you had no work, what would you do?

No. Who are you? Oh, what's your identity? Yeah. Who are you then? What's your life about then? Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. And for many people, they blink at me and they go um because there's not much. That's interesting. That's interesting. That's interesting. What What should people try to be if there was no work? It's not about inventing something. It's about who did you used to be? Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. What aspects of yourself are not coming to the for not getting any oxygen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What what you know because people sometimes you know in the book I talk about this one guy.

He was a lawyer and he was so uptight and he was so rigid and so like you know like he was like you would sit like that. He was so and it turned out that in college he did improv. improv. improv. He used to do improv. Yeah. Yeah. And which is spoiler alert that happens later. But but um but I was like there was not a shred of that. That person was no joy. Not I had never seen his teeth. Never seen his teeth. And so I'm like oh my god that's how deeply buried that had become.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And clearly it was a part of him. Why do you think people lose so much of their joy? Is it tied to work stress or pressures of life or societal things? Why why is that? Because we have so much joy. Well not everyone. You know, some people have a lot of pain and suffering growing up, but most people have joy and play in their life growing up and then work, they lose play. Now, I get you have to have results and you've got to make money and you got to create profits and all these different things, but but but why do they lose that?

Is it all related to work? to work? to work? First of all, joy is considered a nice to have, not a mustave for a lot of people. But for a lot of people um it's it's truly a reality of our time of the current workplace the current economy. They are working you know two jobs or they're working a very demanding job then coming home taking care of their kids. They have very very little time for themselves. There's very little time to breathe. There's very little time to even take their temperature and ask themselves themselves themselves what what do they feel like doing?

But they just don't have that autonomy. They don't have that space to even question it. And so they just there's so much they have to get done that they they completely lose sight of that like if something can go well joy will have to go. Yes, I liked doing that but I don't have time to do that anymore. But it again it creeps up on you so that you at some point end up with just duty all day. You're in duty mode. Whether it's as a parent, whether it's as a worker, whether it's as caretaker, whatever the thing is, thing is, thing is, it's exhausting, right?

Well, that's why burnout is peaking. I mean, the interesting thing about stress and burnout is that awareness of stress and burnout has gone up. The awareness of the importance of work life balance has gone up. And yet, at the same time, the awareness has gone up. Stress and burnout are peaking on an all-time highs. highs. highs. Really? Really? Really? Yes. Yes. Yes. Why is that? Because they're not contained to the workplace. because that stuff spills over into our life outside of work in the ways I gave examples about in terms of our relationships in other ways such that you can't just it's not about oh let's let's do something at work to make things a little bit easier you have to manage your mind you have to manage the psychology of your mind because for many of us for example um who have either demanding jobs or again we're passionate about our work they're desperate to switch off at the end of the day and they cannot they cannot they cannot because they have more responsibilities at home.

at home. at home. No, because they're ruminating about work. work. work. Ah, Ah, Ah, because they're obsessing about it. Because they can't let go of that really annoying thing that happened or that really dismissive thing that somebody said or that somebody didn't show up for them when they had showed up for that person over and over again and it was so hurtful and disappointing, they can't let it go. Really, why do people hold on to the obsession of what happens at work when they're at home so much?

This episode is brought to you by Apple Watch. With each new year, big goals are set, big promises get made, and then right around the second Friday of January, Quitter's Day, most resolutions start to fade. And in fact, most people give up by the second Friday of the year. And it's time to break that pattern with Apple Watch, designed to make 2026 all about quitting quitting. It brings motivation into the moments when it matters most with tools like the workout app, pace alerts, and activity rings.

Whether your goal is moving more, staying active throughout the day, or building better habits, Apple Watch emphasizes progress with features that nudge, remind, and support consistency. It tracks the ways the body moves, celebrates goals as they're reached, and helps create momentum that lasts past January. And as the new year begins, staying committed becomes less about perfection and more about not giving up. Find out more at apple.com/applewatch series 11. iPhone 11 or later required. Look, our our unconscious mind thinks work is the most important thing in our life because factually it's where we spend most of our time.

It what pays our bills. It will it's what fulfills our needs. It what you know just looking at it factually like that must be the most important thing. So anything that happens there is considered very important number one. Number two, interpersonal slights are really stick with us wherever they happen. When somebody's rude, dismissive, univilized, let alone when you're being bullied or harassed, it is very difficult to let that go. So, we obsess about it. We we ruminate about it. And it's those are intrusive thoughts. Those are not volunt voluntary thoughts.

That's not something we decide I'm going to go home and obsess about how my coworker, you know, was rude to me in the meeting for the all the evening. It's not something we do, but it's something we want to do, but it's something that happens to us. And then we're sitting there and we're checked out and we're trying to be present, but our mind keeps getting dragged back into this bombardment of intrusive thoughts and we don't have the mechanism. We don't know how to switch that off.

I talk about how to switch that off in the book, but it's something we need to do in a very deliberate way. What is one psychological way to manage our mind to overcome burnout in life? So, just to explain something about burnout, when we are at work all day and we are in a stressful work environment, again, stressful not necessarily because it's toxic or certainly if it is, just because it's demanding, it's pressured. We are in fight or flight. our bodies and our minds are in a battlefield and and our mind doesn't really distinguish well between whether the battlefield is happening in the boardroom or actually in a battlefield.

So we are in fight or flight. When we come home that is when we need to give our systems a break from fight or flight. You can't be activated all the time because that's when wear and tear will happen, exhaustion and burnout. So when people come home and they're still thinking about work, they're extending that fight or flight until they go to bed and then they're never getting a break from it. So one thing that people can do and it's a really it's a trivial thing sounds like but it's a critical thing is you need to detach psychologically from work at some point after work.

You maybe can't do it, you know, at 7 or at 8, but at some point it's got to be because your work day, by the way, it doesn't end when you leave work. Your work day doesn't end when you shut your laptop. Your work day ends when you stop thinking about work. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. And unless you stop thinking about work, you're still at work. So, you have to detach psychologically from work. What's the best way you've studied or seen people do on how they can break their mind from thinking about work once they're away from work?

So, there are two things. First of all, I believe that you have to have a ritual to transition from your workday to your personal time, family time, even if it's family time and parenting duties and caretaking duties, whatever the thing is, but that you're in a different mode because you don't have to be in fight or flight flight flight for that. You do often at work. So there needs to be a ritual. And the point of a ritual is it's repetitive and it it trains your brain that when you start doing it, your brain learns over time, we're about to change our mindset.

We're about to relax. We do that with kids when we're putting them to bed, right? We an hour before they go to bed, we bring the lights down. We slow things down. We move the toys away. we prepare them to kind of settle down. We need to settle down as well. And so you want a transition that will help your brain learn that now it's time to shift from work mode. And that should include as many of the senses as possible because that's a deeper resonance within the brain.

So sound, so music very evocative. Have your playlist that helps you relax at the end of the day that you can listen to. Our clothing is very embodied as a as a cognition for us. us. us. Suit off and put something else on or your work clothes. Right. Yes. Now, I am pretty casual in my job. And I know people who work in t-shirts and jeans, but have the t-shirts and jeans that you wear at work and have different t-shirt and jeans that you don't wear at work that you wear at home because your mind will learn to associate when I put those on.

Then I'm in a relaxed mode. So there's, you know, there's the site that light, you know, change the lighting when you get home. Yes. In any way. It doesn't really matter in which direction, but just something that symbolizes for you. Now this is about home. Use scent if you can, you know, use all the senses that you can to really and use the same ritual. It has to be repetitive so that when you start doing it, that's the end of your day. Here's one other thing that you can do, and again, this is going to sound stupid, but our brain takes some things unfortunately seriously.

One thing our brain takes really seriously is calendars. And most people when you look at their calendar, it's all booked up with different colors all through the day. And then the evening comes and it's just white space. And so your brain is not told what to be doing in the white space. Write family time. time. time. Write veg out. Write something that tells your brain, "My task now is to do something that's relaxing, that's recharging, that kind of thing." of thing." of thing." Chill mode. Chill mode.

Write chill mode. But write something so your brain knows that's my task now. task now. task now. Uh-huh. Give your brain a task. Even if it's to do nothing. Yes. Interesting. Yes. Interesting. Yes. Interesting. Do nothing is a great title. Yeah. do nothing for the next 5 hours. What would you say are the common coping strategies that people believe are helping them overcome burnout but are actually hurting them? Some of the things people think to do um and and this is very very common is they come home and you said you know like do nothing veg out and they are like I am going to slouch down on the couch and binge this series or doom scroll for three or four hours.

I feel drained so I'm just going to relax. And here's the thing about that. You will wake up tired the next morning no matter how much you relax. relax. relax. Really? Really? Really? Yes. Because relaxation is only 50% of the story. Our brain confuses physical and mental exhaustion. It doesn't distinguish well. So you are mentally tired. Some people have very physically demanding jobs. Most don't. Most are sitting with a screen all day. So when you get home, you're not physically exhausted. You're mentally drained. mentally drained.

mentally drained. Yes. Yes. Yes. And then relaxing won't drain you further, but it won't recharge you. It won't fill the battery. What will fill the battery is something active that is recharging for you. So I'm sure that just use you an example, uh you know, when you get home at the end of the day and you haven't had a chance to work out, you're athletic, you're an athlete. You know, if you go and you go to a practice session with handball or you do something, you might feel like that is the last thing I feel like doing right now.

But if you force yourself to do it, when you get back, you are going to feel more energized than before you left, even though you expended a bunch of energy energy energy to do it. If somebody's creative, if they're a painter, getting up and painting for half an hour or doing something creative, if they're an organizer organizing, if they're extrovert going and socializing and forcing themselves to get up, even though they feel drained, they will come back feeling more energized. They will sleep better because relaxing is 50%, recharging recharging recharging is 50%.

is 50%. is 50%. And the biggest mistake we make for burnout is, well, we're tired, so we're just going to relax. Yeah. And the other problem with that is that our brain is just like you just spent the entire day looking at a screen. Now you got to look at the screen for a few minutes. few minutes. few minutes. And now you're so sorry. What's the difference? Like you know where's the you know how are you preventing like it's just the same thing even if you're watching something different.

So the idea is like do something recharging and that's very individual for you. So you can't just lay down and veg and watch. watch. watch. You can do both. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But if that's all you're doing, right? right? right? Then no. then you're going to be tired. You talk about, you know, in one of your previous books, you talked about emotional first aid, which is something I loved. You also talked about how to heal a broken heart. Are there any new emotional tools that you've learned in the last few years that have been really helpful for people that you work with?

So, one of them is about this rumination stuff. I spoke about it in my book, Emotional First Aid, but I've developed my ideas a little bit further. How how bad is ruminating for someone's mind? mind? mind? Oh, well, it's bad for their body as much as for their mind because when you're ruminating, you are flooding yourself with cortisol. You are literally putting yourself into stress. When you're home and you start to think about how annoying your boss was when they did this and they said that, and you'll feel it.

You'll start to it'll start to feel like gh that that feeling of stress wherever you tend to feel it in your shoulders, your stomach, you know, whatever your typical stress manifestation is. You will feel that and and so you are literally putting yourself into fight or flight. You're putting yourself into stress and rumination by definition is an unproductive form of self-reflection. In other words, we're not trying to figure it out. We're just, you know, we're just thinking about it. That's so annoying when they said that.

And then we do this thing where we have a fantasy conversation with our boss that we'll never have in which we we tell them off. We have mic drop moments. I wish I want to go in and I would say this to him. I want to give him the finger and I want to like throw this at them and they're like you're not going to do that. But even in fact now it might feel satisfying in the moment but you're actually getting yourself really worked up in that scenario and people can go through those variations for hours literally hours spent on that kind of stuff.

Now what we ruminate about and what causes the rumination is not so much the incident but the emotion that it evokes. And so with then we start rumination surfing because that was so unfair that happened at work which reminds you of the other thing that was unfair that happened three years ago which reminds you of the unfair thing that happened 5 weeks ago that now you're remembering and like life is so and suddenly it's this downwards rabbit hole in the spiral that just makes you feel so upset and again it feels compelling.

It feels like you're thinking about something important but you're not thinking it through. you're just replaying the crappy parts of it. So what you have to do to break out of that is a understand that it's being fueled by the emotion and then b you have to do two things. Shrink the emotion and convert it into a problem that can be solved. How does someone convert rumination into something that can be solved? Okay, so for example, your boss said something really annoying, shot you down in a meeting, whatever it is.

The problem is as follows and there are many different problems you can pose. Do I need to do something about that? Do I need to address it with the boss directly? Do I need to understand why they shut me down? Is there something I can learn about the fact that I was suggesting something that they tend to not like, etc., etc. Were they just in a bad mood and I can let it go because that was unusual for them? um if it's something I need to address, how do I address it?

How can I learn what to say in the meeting that they will actually endorse rather than let me decide to pay attention to what their boss is going to when people are speaking. I'll keep my eye on the boss at the next meeting. See what they're nodding and try and conclude from that what are the kinds of things they like to hear versus not etc. Once you have a plan, it eases the stress. You can stop ruminating because you have a plan. You figured it out.

But unless you pose it as a question of what do I need to do if anything and if I need to do something how do I address it and if I need to address it what's the most effective way to do it right right right once you start asking those questions you're figuring something out then you're literally trying to get to solutions you're cutting through all the angst along the way there just seems to be a lot of work stress in the in societal I guess conversations a lot people are stressed people for getting laid off work, the economy, the uncertainty of the economy in the future, rising prices everywhere.

If someone's in love in a relationship romantically, but they go through years of work stress, is it possible they could fall out of love romantically because of work stress? And the second part, is it the boss and the work environment's fault or is it their fault? fault? fault? Okay, part one. Yes, people can fall out of love when they're really chronically stressed stressed stressed because it's numbing. Yes. Yes. Yes. So, it's not that they're falling out out of love, per se. It's that they're not feeling much.

It's numbing. It's numbing. It's numbing. Yes. Yes. Yes. You're just dealing with the pressures. You don't have time to think or feel about other things. There's something that's useful about that because if you were actually feeling how depressing your situation were, you might not be able to function. So, you know, so to numb yourself in order to get through it has its advantages, but that can again spill over outside of work and suddenly you become numb to many things and that can be including your partner.

I've worked with many people who thought they had fallen out of love or whose partner suddenly changed suddenly changed suddenly changed and became really annoying or really this or that and I'm like it's your partner who changed or is it you like is it your work stress that has become so chronic that you can't feel it and and then when they do get a break when they do kind of use these tools to kind of lower the stress then they start to just reconnect to the feelings.

feelings. feelings. Mhm. But also, it's dynamic because if you're the partner and this person is standoffish, you know, they come home at the end of the day and when you go up to give them a hug, they're stiff because they're still in work mode. At some point, you're not going to be a fan either. And then it starts setting up a difficult dynamic between two people. Interesting, Interesting, Interesting, right? right? right? Gosh. Gosh. Gosh. So, work is the enemy, huh? So, again, a lot of this is happening in our head.

our head. our head. Work is difficult. I want to be clear. Work is difficult. But it's how we manage it that's responsible for a large chunk of what we're doing to ourselves because we're not creating that separation because we're not creating the boundaries because we're not nourishing ourselves in the way that we need to to be able to manage that. Now there's a lot work can do to make things easier for us like exhibiting caring like there's a study that shows that when there's uh layoffs about to happen and unfortunately you know how these things work layoffs are announced but they're 6 months ahead in advance so let's tell everyone that they're you know know know someone's getting laid off in 6 months get to work people you know it's like it's so difficult and so you know it's so now the the research is that if you're a personal manager who doesn't have any more information than you do who can't control necessarily the budget, so doesn't necessarily know who's getting laid off.

If they exhibit caring to you, if they just say, "Hey, I know how difficult this is. How are you doing?" doing?" doing?" That reduces stress by a huge percentage, percentage, percentage, right? right? right? Just caring that everyone's empowered to do that. Every manager, every team leader is empowered, every coworker is empowered to exhibit caring. And it has a huge impact in a great way. If someone has fallen out of love, you know, from work stress or just pressures of life, what would you say are a few steps they could try to reactivate those feelings and emotions to fall back in love with their partner?

You just have to lower you have to lower the stress, right? I mean, when when you're treading water and the water's up to here, you need to lower the water first. I mean, you need to get more breathing room. breathing room. breathing room. Yes. And there's a bunch they can do to get more breathing room because again a lot of that stress is spent on ruminating. ruminating. ruminating. Stress is very psychological, right? Like people say to me sometimes like, "What do I do about the fact that my job is just very very stressful?" But does it have to be stressful?

Can you change the way you think about it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Let's say the job is typic is is comparatively comparatively comparatively stressful. stressful. stressful. Yes. The first thing you can do about that is stop telling yourself that your job is very stressful because what that means is means is means is reinforcing it, right? Yeah, it's reinforcing it. But there are many moments in which it's not. It's many moments in which it is and there many moments at which there's a lunch break in which it's not stressful.

There are a few meetings which aren't terrible. But you're telling yourself that those two are stressful and terrible. So you're keeping yourself on alert and you're likely to perceive any negative thing that happens there as see that's stressful too and that's so you're you're you're you're poisoning yourself into perceiving into perceiving into perceiving things that are more ambiguous or not that stressful as stressful. So don't say my job is very stressful. Say my job has stressful elements. I use firefighters as an example because I work with a bunch of firefighters and you know is is their job very stressful?

They run into burning buildings. Yeah. Those moments are very stressful. There's a lot of downtime where they're just hanging out and just kind of relaxing and they always say to me like, "No, my job isn't very stressful." There are moments that are, but we are in the firehouse most of the time. Yeah. Playing stressful. Yeah. If it's my turn to cook, it's stressful cuz people hate my cooking, you know, like that kind of thing. Um, but it's like, and it's a great lesson, I took from them like, yeah, if they can describe their job as intermittently stressful, then that's true of most of us.

Mhm. Yeah. And that framing alone makes a big difference. The framing of it is Yeah. It's finding ways to almost play a game in your mind when you go to work, right? It's like, how can I make today fun even though usually it's stressful? How can I crack a little joke with a co-orker in between a stressful moment? How can I shake it off in the bathroom and just kind of relax? How can I listen to some music that brings me a little joy throughout the day?

How can I do something? How can I prepare my favorite meal for lunch so I know I have something to look forward to? to? to? Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. Like every couple hours like there's going to be joyful moments throughout my day. How can I send a funny meme to a friend? Whatever it is, like how can I do something where my day becomes more enjoyable where you can actually enjoy work rather than just be overwhelmed and stressed by it. And again, it doesn't mean there's not going to be stressful moments and pressure-filled moments and responsibilities, responsibilities, responsibilities, but how can you reframe the way you think and act every day, work and life?

Absolutely. Find one thing to look forward to during the day. And it could be what you just said is a great example. I prepared my favorite meal for lunch, so at least I'll get 15 minutes to have that and I look forward to that. As long as you say that to yourself and you frame that to yourself, it immediately, it's amazing because people will think, well, that doesn't change anything. It does. Stress is entirely psychological. It is entirely our tolerances and what we're telling ourselves. The messaging is critical, which a is super useful because we can actually do it.

Yes. Yes. Yes. And and and it seems like a cheat, but it's not a cheat. It's a cheat the other way when we keep using it in the negative way to stress ourselves out. We can reclaim that and use it to decrease our stress. our stress. our stress. What is the difference between two people who are going to the same work environment where one person doesn't seem like a lot phases them even though there's pressure-filled stressful moments and the other person is always on alert and overwhelmed and overstressed.

What is the difference between those two people in a similar environment? Well, it's their mindset because the overly stressed person has come, you know, anticipating the worst, expecting a very difficult day, knowing. Now, by the way, if you have a very difficult meeting coming up, then you should prepare for it. You should like raise your defenses and be like, take a deep breath and like, okay, I know this is going to be difficult. You know what I can do? I'm going to sit through it and then I'm going to text my friend to say hey can I call you for 5 minutes afterwards just to be able to like complain about like you know like I can do something like that but they're setting themselves up to experience all of the stressful because they're like I hate this I hate my job if you say to yourself I hate my job and you are not looking for another job it's a problem because you're just making yourself miserable miserable miserable don't stay there either change the way you feel about it or I'll stay there or say I hate certain aspects of my job.

I don't mind others like just be more tempered, be more realistic. Yes. What is the biggest challenge that you face personally with your psychological mind, the way you think? After four decades of studying the mind and psychology, what is your biggest struggle still? The biggest struggle I have is that I can't get away with much. Yeah. You're like, "Yeah, yeah." Like, I know when I'm doing something incorrectly. incorrectly. incorrectly. I know where I should be doing something else. I know. Like, really, we're having a pity party now.

You know, that's not you. Like, I can't shut the voice off in the back of my mind that that now once in a while I'll be like, I'm going to feel bad for myself for an hour. I'm giving myself the hour. Sure. Sure. But it's it's it's because look it look it look it emotional health in general and and having the right mindset, you know, this is actually really effortful. It's so much easier to just go with the misery. It is, It is, It is, you know, that's the default.

Let's just let me just give in to it. Let me just like, you know, succumb to it. It's actually really difficult to have to go, no, I know that's not the right thing to do. I know I can get myself out of this mood if I just do A, B, and C. So come on, do A, B, and C, you know, or when I get home and I'm like tired and then I want to be just like I just want to veg out. No, do something recharging.

Even if it's 15 minutes, do something cuz you know the science, you know the research. research. research. I know. And and if I haven't experienced it yet, then I constantly come across situations in life where, oh, I've worked with someone who had this 3 years ago and I remember exactly what I said to them. to them. to them. Don't be a hypocrite. So that's that's take it away with this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. That's hilarious. I I want I have a practical question for you around relationships.

relationships. relationships. Is it bad for a couple to argue over text or email versus arguing or communicating in person? There are some couples who are very explosive, number one, and two, who miscommunicate. miscommunicate. miscommunicate. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Or mishar. Or mishar. Or mishar. Usually those things go together. And they're just not very productive when they speak in person. when they do it in person, it escalates really really quickly or like wait did you say this? No, I didn't say that. Yes, you did. I heard. It's that kind of stuff.

You know, people when they come to couples therapy, it's remarkable. It have two people in the same room. We had an argument last night. One person says one story, the other person's telling you a different story. Now, it's not different perspectives. They truly misremember. One of them does or both of them do what was said. You know, so for some people when you're doing it over text or over email, two things happen. Number one, you have to compose the text or the email. So that is immediately bringing you down from the kind of amydala activation kind of thing into a little more of a calmer mindset because you have to sit and write it.

You can, you know, and it gives you the opportunity to read what you're Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. hopefully writing and to amend it and it's a written record, so you can't say you didn't say that. Yes, I did say that. Well, now we kind of know who said who said what. Um, what a lot of people do today, by the way, is they'll put it into an AI and say, "Was this as hostile as I think or do they really mean this?" Really? Really? Really? Yeah. People say to me all the time, "I put all the text into AI and they and AI thought I was right." That that's a hostile thing.

And I'm like, if you tell AI like, "Is there hostility here?" AI will say to you, "Yeah, yeah, I'll find it." Sure. Sure. Sure. But that doesn't mean there necessarily was. Anyway, but but but you know, I mean, by the time we, you know, this comes out, AI will have developed and we never know. But but but the point is like for some people it's more effective actually to do it. And I know people who naturally do that. They literally will sit in a different room and they'll be arguing like crazy over text and a it can be useful because the kids are like, "My parents never argue, right?" Because they're doing it over text.

Wow. So, you know, interesting. But you could also be explosive and mean over text as well. But then you have a record of what you said and you're like, "Oh, it does. It does. I'm a jerk. I'm the jerk. Look at that." Yeah. Yeah. It does kind of you can't delete that. No, that's right. And it does kind of prevent you from like I can't just say I said it out of anger because I wrote it and then I pressed send. send. send. So it's not just a lot.

Well, a lot of people like say like, "Oh, if I could have taken the words back when they came out of my mouth." You can. You just don't press send. Exactly. Now you mentioned AI. Is AI do you think AI is helpful or hurtful in intimate relationships? The use of AI people using AI in some certain ways or just AI in general reviewing text messages and conversations asking AI for help from romantic stuff like is this helpful or hurtful? Look, I don't know what you hear.

I hear a lot of different things. I rarely hear. I asked AI to find the most romantic date I can for my partner. I told AI everything about my partner and asked what can I do to delight them for their birthday or for anniversary or for Valentine's Day. Like I I'm sure some people use it for that which would be terrific but most people are litigating on AI on AI on AI really that all Yeah. the litigating, you know, like they're putting in all of this like who's right, who's wrong, aren't they terrible, are they not terrible?

It's for that. And for a lot of people who are not in the relationship but want to be in the relationship, it's well, do they love me? Do they really care? Oh, yeah. The here's the texts. Um, and you know, like, but but is are they into me then or are they not cuz I can't make it out. And so they're like asking for relationship advice. Again, AI right now is still prone to tell us what we want to hear. And we're not very shy about indicating what it is we want to hear.

So, it's not the most, you know, like like, you know, real necessarily thing. It'll give you a nice sanitized version of what you might want to hear. Um, but AI can be terribly useful if you're actually using it to generate ideas. Like some people will, you know, use it for like, I need to talk to my partner about something sensitive. What's the best way to phrase that? How do I bring it up in a way that's not hurtful? Or here's what I'm thinking of saying that any offensive offensive that's a great use.

Why is it so hard for people to start a relationship and tell the person they're into just getting a start in a relationship that they're actually interested in them that what their intentions are, that they like them, that they want to create more with them? Why is that hard for so many people to just say how they feel about the person they're starting to date or see instead of questioning does this person like me or should I say this now? Why is that so hard for people?

Look, it's tricky because there's some people that if you say to them, hey, I like you. like you. like you. They will for some people it will make them like you less because if they have any kind of self-esteem issues then you saying you like them and you don't know about their self-esteem issues at the beginning you saying you like them makes them have an unconscious reactions to well well well really already I don't know what's wrong with them you know like something maybe they're not the right person then perhaps you think those things work out like wounded like do you want that relationship relationship relationship that's true but but they still think that you know they want that it makes you emotionally vulnerable you know for Sure.

Because now you're saying like and and my issue with it is that that that if you're starting to date someone and you like them, you really have to acknowledge that you don't know them well. well. well. Of course, Of course, Of course, at all. So saying I like you without qualifying it. qualifying it. qualifying it. True. True. True. Saying like, "Hey, I'm really just getting to know you, but so far I like to see so far." Or, "I've enjoyed our first few dates so far." Yeah, I still know nothing about you.

Yeah, except for three days of hanging out. But I think it's fair to say, you know, I still don't know you, but so far I like it, you know, like that seems more, you know, balanced. Yes. Yes. Yes. Uh, you know, I love you and you're amazing or Yeah. But here's another issue uh that I come across um people because of social media today are learning incorrectly a lot of um uh issues about dating. So, somebody showed me a, you know, a text that they sent um someone that um that their friend said.

So, this person had a date with someone. It was two dates. And after that second date, they said, "Hey, I really I really I really enjoyed the date. I really like you." And then that person took a other person took a step back and and when they not go, but they took a step back. Now, they pursued and they did get to see that person again. So they asked them at some point, "Why did you take a step back?" And that person said, because I showed the text to my friends and they all were like, "Oh my god, they're lovebombing you." Red flag.

Red flag. Red flag. They're love bombing. Wow. Wow. Wow. I liked you. I enjoyed our dates. I really hope we can get to see each other again. Was considered love bombing, which doesn't seem like it at all. It's not remotely. Um, but like they learned the term on social media, so they misapplied it and then now that's a warning sign. So, so people are also misinterpreting. misinterpreting. misinterpreting. Man, that's crazy. What do you want them to say? Uh, just nothing. No engagement or just say, "See you next time." Like, what?

You know, what are you supposed to say? say? say? Hey, I had a fun time. When can I see you again? you again? you again? Yeah, that's it. You can't say I liked you. you. you. You You can, but but this is when you get a weird reaction to that, understand it's not you. It is not you. Should people be asking their friends about everything the person did or didn't do after the dates and asking them to interpret when they're actually not love experts? It's not only that they're not a love expert.

They have biases. Yes. Right. Are they happy in their relationships and they're really happy for you to have one? Or they unhappy in theirs and therefore maybe not be entirely happy for you to find love in yours? Or do they have some jealousy issues they do not really express but they're there? Or do they are they in a miserable point, a jaded point in their dating life or in their relationship life where they're just like think all relationships suck like you know everyone has biases and you have to account for the biases of the people you seek counsel from at any stage when it comes to relationships because they will bring those biases to the advice.

M and when someone is getting into a relationship and let's say they have unhealed emotional wounds, they haven't faced any of their emotional wounds at all and they're getting into a relationship. relationship. relationship. What could you expect that relationship to happen once they get into it? Based on what those wounds are, they're going to be some issues that come up because it's not going to be smooth sailing. I mean, you know this relationships take a lot of work and they take a lot of honesty and they and first of all with yourself and they take a lot of mutual guidance, right?

You're building something together. If if you have certain emotional wounds, then then you're not building something necessarily in the right direction or correctly or what you think is correct might not be or what you saw at home from your own childhood, from your own experiences might not be a great model. And so like it it'll tilt things in a certain way. Now, it's never too late to get a handle on those. It's never too late to understand what your emotional wounds are and how they might be impacting be impacting be impacting your relationship and and and your feelings about the other person, you know, and what you tend to assume like, oh, this this is my love language.

A lot of people, you know, love language is like, you know, just avoid my wounds. And that's not a love language. That's, you know, that's Yeah. Don't do anything to annoy me. Yeah. That's not a love language. If two people get into a relationship who have unresolved wounds or traumas and you could have give them a game plan on how to have a healthy long-term relationship, what would be the actions they would both need to take to start healing those wounds, assessing them, integrating the healing journey?

What would that look like? Because most people come into relationship wounded. We probably all have certain wounds. Even if you've done some work on yourself, you probably still have something lingering or something comes to the surface eventually again. So, what would be a good game plan together? If if and I say if cuz I don't know a lot of couples to do this. If they could start by acknowledging to themselves and to one another, acknowledging overtly, hey, I have not been great in relationships in the past.

I have some stuff. You have some stuff. We both have some stuff, but there's potential here. Let's start with that acknowledgment that we have some stuff that might impact us along the way. And let's keep an ongoing dialogue about how things are going, what feels good, what doesn't, where our stuff might be rearing its head, and what we can do about it. Let's keep a spotlight on that. Not every second because that's exhausting, but like let's intermittently do check-ins. Let's intermittent and let's be open to that kind of feedback.

Not that you're bad, I'm bad, you did something wrong, I did something wrong. This is our stuff manifesting. And you could just use this neutral term of this is our stuff. These are our wounds manifesting. How do we manage them in this context? That's a good idea. I think acknowledging from the beginning. I think I told you this last interview that when I started dating Martha, I said, I want to commit to therapy in the beginning of our relationship where I can personally grow, you can personally grow and we can grow together with whatever stuff we have going on.

Y Y Y and try to create more alignment, more agreements from the start rather than a year or two in frustration comes about now we have to kind of resolve something together and create agreements later. Let's start with it now. For me, that was the best thing that I probably ever done in a relationship just by it just made us appreciate one another also of like, hey, we're in this together. We both got to figure stuff out and we got to figure it out together. That has been really supportive of our relationship.

And again, it doesn't make anything perfect or whatever, but it makes it smoother, right? right? right? And it makes the challenging times easier to manage, right? And and when something comes up, you don't have to start with this whole preamble about look, there's something I need to bring up. It's just like there's there's there's an openness to it. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. How can time travel reignite love or passion in a relationship? So, a lot of times people will say to me like, "We've been together for a while." It's not that the passion is gone, but it's like we're both a little fatigued with the relationship with each other.

And sometimes um an exercise that I suggest to couples, which is a difficult one, I it's a production lift, but if you can do it, it's remarkably effective. And that is like reenact not just necessarily your first date, but one of the earlier dates you had in which you realized you started to have feelings for one another. And by reenact I mean reenact. go back to the bar or to the club, find the same kind of clothes that you wore, you know, go to and if the restaurant doesn't exist, find a similar one.

Like, literally try and set that it was a was Christmas and they were this and they were there. Go to the place, do the thing like and and do this long setup of when you're in the moment of, you know, because you're coming to, you know, to a date. So, so you know start separately. Try and get into the mindset of how you felt at the time like wow I you know this is our fourth date or our 10th date and I kind of really like her but or I really liked him but and then try and get it and then literally go through that date that date that date really.

really. really. Again it really helps you kind of remember how exciting it was at the beginning. how, you know, how like this this new love that was starting to kind of, you know, appear and start, you know, the infatuation that was starting to kind of take over. Those are the really fun moments of dating, right? The initial infatuation, and you want to make them linger, and they don't linger that long, but you want to try and make them do that, but try and recapture that uncertainty of it.

You didn't know that you're going to end up together. You didn't know that it's all going to work out. So, have the uncertainty. I don't know. I mean, I really hope this is the one, but I don't know. and then try and go through that first magical moment. And in prepping for it, it might take a lot of prep based on where it was, who was there, but but couples were able to do it were able to really kind of take it on as a fun project.

And even in prepping for it, they were starting to get into the mindset. Interesting. What have you seen by people who have recreated their kind of first date moment? With some couples, it's interesting because they had to go back, let's say, 20 years in fashion. Uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, they had to go to like vintage stores to kind of find the thing that, you know, whatever. It's like an adventure though, right? It's like a It was an adventure. But some of them chose to keep that clothing and to wear the clothing every once in a while because it reminded them or to bring souvenirs back souvenirs back souvenirs back that they didn't think to take at the time or to have reminders around to kind of remind them of that exciting kind of time.

In ter in terms of the emotional first aid strategies, what would you say is the most effective sciencebacked tool that you've either developed or learned that can help people reclaim, I guess, autonomy over their thoughts and emotions that are keeping them stuck in life in general. So So So to me, when people are stuck in life, it's because they're dealing with some kind of sense of failure. They're they're feeling unsuccessful in some kind of way. Something's not working working working and they have some kind of story about it.

it. it. And that story is what's keeping them stuck stuck stuck really really really because the story is like, I can't do this or this doesn't work out for me or if it's the workplace, well, the boss doesn't like me so I can't get ahead. you know there there's some kind of story and they're stuck in the wound of it. They're stuck in the feeling mad of it. Now I believe and this might seem very mechanistic and cold in some way but I believe that in in like limits to how long you get to feel bad about certain things in life like failures or like unsuccesses and based on the level of that give yourself an hour if it's small a day if it's bigger a week if it's very big but beyond that if you're just feeling just feeling just feeling bad or demoralized or helpless.

Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. You you're not getting anywhere. So I and I do that with myself. It's one of the annoying things that I force myself to do, which I really You're like, I can't ruminate for days. I want to do an hour. Yeah. Yeah. But the point is like when it happens, I then determine how long I give myself because otherwise I can keep stretching it. Just one more day. No, this is worthy of this much. And and then after that, there has to be a pivot.

And the pivot has to be an analysis that is self-critical free because what what really sabotages us is when we start looking at what's not working and I'm an idiot. I'm you know like I'm so stupid. Why am I a loser? Why? Like all that stuff. It has zero value. It's not motivating. It's not enhancing our self-esteem. And it's certainly not helping our confidence, right? It's literally just like gh, you know, it's choking us. So, it has to be a critical free analysis. And the critical free analysis is what's not working for me.

Where are the obstacles? And then you name each obstacle. For example, boss doesn't like me so I can't get promoted. You name each obstacle and then for each one you start brainstorming how do you get around that obstacle? Boss doesn't like me. It's two things. How do I change to another boss or how do I get the boss to like me? Because you can change the boss's opinion. So, who does the boss like? Why do they like them? like them? like them? You know, if okay, the boss is like misogynist.

He doesn't like me because I'm a woman. Great. Then I might need to change because I'm not going to be given the same opportunity here. So, then I really need to shift my strategies. But then I'm started to think about what are my options. The minute you're starting to think how to get around an obstacle, then you're already out of paralysis. You're already not stuck. You're already not demoralized. not demoralized. not demoralized. And and you know, we all know that, yeah, failure is the best teacher, etc.

The what people get stuck is they don't know how to implement that because they start to look at the failure and it just makes them feel crappy, so they stop. As opposed to like, no, you're feeling crappy because you're beating yourself up as you're doing it. Approach it like a detective. Don't have feelings about it. just analyzing analyzing analyzing what I mean it sounds like we're talking about getting self-respect how important is having self-respect in all relationships and what are the fastest ways that you see people losing their own selfrespect own selfrespect own selfrespect well one of the fastest way people lose their self-respect is by having this internal voice of a bully not I'm not saying harsh I'm saying bully bully bully they are the bully to themselves they are a major bully to themselves so many people how bad is that for selfrespect Right.

selfrespect Right. selfrespect Right. Well, if somebody outside were, you know, if somebody else were like constantly in your head because that bullying goes on a lot. Like I know people who literally will call themselves loser themselves loser themselves loser 30 times a day. Wow. Can you imagine if you had somebody following you around in life going loser, loser, loser, loser? You would be like this is torturous. But we do it to ourselves and many people do it. Now they say to me like well I'm trying to motivate myself.

I'm like are you though? Because would that be motivating for anyone else if you did it to them? Well, no. But I'm like, there's no no butt. You know, like, well, I'm trying to be a coach. I'm like, that coach will get fired right away because a coach is trying to increase the confidence of their players. Set a high expectation. Tell them they can do it, not tell them they can't. You know, if you're like, "Oh, nothing works for me." You know, like I just things never break my way.

Those kinds of thoughts, then things never break your way. What's the point of trying? of trying? of trying? It almost sounds like what we say to ourselves and how we say it to ourselves is one of the most important things we'll ever do. It is the most important thing because look, it's I'm all for, you know, hold yourself responsible, hold yourself accountable, set a high bar, set a high expectation, but do not bully yourself. Do not chastise yourself. Do not name call yourself. Do not focus on like I know so many people who walk around going, "Well, I'm ugly." And I'm like, how is that possibly useful to you?

And I don't care what you look like. You should never be saying I'm ugly. Find something you like about yourself and go, I have beautiful eyes. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. The rest is not great. What have you seen psychologically when someone says I I have negative selft talk all day long or I say I'm ugly or I'm whatever, not attractive, I'm a dummy, I'm a loser, whatever these are. How badly does that hurt someone emotionally when they speak poorly to themselves? Like what is the science or the research or the stats around that?

Do we have any of that? It's abusive. It's abusive. It's abusive. Really? Really? Really? It's it's the same. I mean, it it's even worse than when somebody does it to you externally because when somebody does it to you externally, you can go like, you know what, screw them. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. But when you're doing it to yourself, you don't go, "Well, screw me." Right? And so it's really toxic. It's absolutely damaging. And it's and it's and it's chronic for a lot of people and they come up with justifications about why that's a useful thing or why they deserve it.

Oh, but I deserve it. Like, do you know because you're that terrible a person and well, I am terrible. Like again, you have to drill down to like what makes you so terrible. Other than the fact that you're suffering, other than the fact that you're really wounded, other than the fact that you're really hurt, whose voice have you internalized that treated you this badly that you're continuing their work for them? Wow. Wow. Wow. Like it it's it's terrible. It's absolutely terrible. And and that's something that and it's a difficult habit to change because it's habitual and it it's a running commentary, a running commentary of your entire life.

But you have to get annoyed at it. You have to see it as abusive. You have to see it as some kind of part of you that's bullying yourself. You have to give it a face. You have to give it a name. You have to give it something that causes you and you have to develop an antipathy for it. You have to develop a disdain for it. You have to develop an anger toward it. But it's still part of you. So you're putting a an anger towards a part of you that's been doing this thing, right?

It is. It's not. Is it a part of you? It's something you've internalized. It's something that you've developed. But is cancer a part of you? Maybe it's not holistically part of you. It's attached to you. It came from you. It, you know, it's in you, but it's not a part of you. It's a part that should be the healed version of you. It's a part that should be removed. Yes. Yes. Yes. I think of it as a cancer. It's something you should remove. Interesting. And when we can start to do that with that voice in our head that's putting us down, so many things, you know, unlock afterwards, right?

What what is possible for people when they stop allowing the negative voice to take over their mind and their life and they they remove it from themselves and they start using a more empowering voice. What happens for them after that? So if if you've tied your legs together, right, when the sack races we used to do as kids, if you're in a sack and you're trying to move through life, you're not going to get very far. But when you step out of that, and again, stepping out of a sack is much easier proposition than what we're talking about.

M but when you free yourself up from those shackles from that abuse then people are stunned because suddenly like their possibilities suddenly like it's almost like a little scary because like oh I don't have excuses right now I don't because it sometimes it's excuses it's like oh I I I'm terrible I'll never because now I don't have to try I don't have to fail I don't have to feel be disappointed but you're miserable so what's worse not trying you know what I mean but suddenly there's a freedom There's an anxiety that comes with that freedom, but there's a sense of freedom there.

There's a sense of relief that comes when you really start to like develop. And by the way, when you develop, when I'm saying develop an intolerance for it, that is a lot of mental discipline. mental discipline. mental discipline. That mental discipline you are literally doing cognitive retraining. You are train that's like, you know, if you want to build a muscle in the gym, you got to go to the gym every day. You got to go a lot and you got to work out a lot. This is is is 24/7.

24/7. 24/7. This is 24/7 being on God. and you'll miss it at first and it'll be there at first, but just as soon as you catch it, like, no, that's not true. That's not a voice I want in my head. It is not useful for me. It is damaging. It is abusive. I don't want to live with a bully. Why am I living with a bully? Yeah. And, you know, I have compassion for people that maybe had their parents were bullying them or they lived with siblings that bullied them and it became part of their narrative.

So, it's very hard to unwire, I guess, that narrative, especially if you didn't have the tools or the training or the support when you were younger. So, you may be in your 20s or 30s or 40s and still living with that because you never had the tools. 50s and 60s. But look, I sometimes say to them, imagine someone you love and imagine you saying that to them all the time. time. time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You'd be horrified. You would feel so cruel. cruel. cruel. That's what you're doing.

It's sad. sad. sad. How can someone not beat themselves up for doing it to themselves for decades? Well, if they're hearing this for the first time and they know that they say nasty things to themselves, they know that they say, "I'm ugly. I'm fat. I'm a loser. I'll never amount to anything." Whatever it is that's in their mind and they've been the bully to themsel forever, forever, forever, how can they not beat themselves up even more and say, "Look at the wa the life that I wasted because I did this to myself for decades." How can they, you know, let it go and not Well, look, you don't get to like beat yourself up for doing something for decades if you're still doing it.

First, stop. And that's not an easy thing. And that'll take you a while to get there. And then hopefully you were successful. We can talk about like, oh, that's a shame that I kept doing that for a long time. But if you immediately go to, no, you're right. I'm such an idiot for doing that to myself. You're still doing it. You just found a different angle. Mhm. Yeah. That's probably one of the hardest things for people to do. For me, it took me a long time.

It's extremely difficult because most of my school days, I just had confirmation of why I was so stupid because I would get bad test results and people would make fun of me and I was just like, I'm an idiot. I'm stupid. And that was the narrative that I would say, right? And it took me years to try to give myself a little more grace and say, "No, you know, maybe I'm not good there, but I'm good over here. Let me focus on the good over here." and keep compounding that good, you know, and find other things that I can improve on and see the the growth that I've had.

Maybe I'm not where I want to be, but I'm not where I once was. And it's focusing on the improvement, the growth where I am improving, things like that. You know, it took me years. There are, look, I'm a relatively intelligent person and there are things that I'm really stupid at. There are very simple things that I will get wrong all the time that are so ridiculous and my family even like they just wait for me to do them because they just stand there and start laughing like oh my god you can't do that.

How are you this smart over here but over here you're not yet? We there there's you know the very few people are smart everywhere. Yes. Yes. Yes. Right. There's emotional intelligence, there's regular intelligence, there's practical intelligence there, you know like how you manipulate objects in the world intelligence. So we all have our areas where we're not that strong and our areas that we're strong. So we can all find the thing we're not great at or that we're quote unquote stupid obsess over it. over it. over it.

But it doesn't mean we're stupid. That's a generalization. It just means that I'm not great at school. You weren't great at many of the things you are great at. But but you know, again, it took you a while to find that balance and to realize the fact that I wasn't great at school doesn't mean that I'm stupid because I'm very good at some other things. things. things. And it's true of everyone. We can all find the thing that makes us feel stupid, but we can probably find lots of other things that do not.

Yes. Yes. Yes. And so don't generalize and give yourself a label because of the one or two things. two things. two things. And just because you're not good at one thing doesn't mean you're a failure in life, you know? And you can just acknowledge, oh, I'm not that good at that. And that's okay, right? Find the things you are, emphasize those. emphasize those. emphasize those. I don't have to feel bad just because someone else is better than me at something and and I'm not that good at it yet, you know?

It's just like you don't have to make that your identity. Also, uh, mind over grind, how to break free when work hijacks your life. I feel like the next four years, as we get into 2030, there is going to be a lot of challenge and stress that could potentially come people's way if they're not prepared for it. I don't want to put this on everyone and say that it's going to happen, but I feel like if people are not emotionally and mentally preparing the way you teach about in this book, the way you shared in this interview, and they just keep grinding through life, they just keep I'm just going to one step in front of the other and I'm just going to grind at work and grind at home and just get through it.

Eventually, they're going to collapse if they don't learn these strategies now to be able to apply them. Now, when there are pressure-filled moments in life, when pressure comes at them, whether it's work or the environment or whether it's the economy or whatever, health challenges in family, like when that pressure squeezes you, if you're not emotionally and mentally prepared to take that pressure, it might break you, it might snap you, and it might crumble your relationships, everything. And so I really hope people get this book and I hope they rewatch and relisten to this episode and use some of these tools now because when 2020 hit it broke a lot of people and I just have a a sense that in the next four years there's going to be something we don't know what it is economically workrelated you know AI who knows and I want people to be prepared and the best way you compare is within your your own mind and your emotions.

It's something we've talked about many times in the show, something you've talked about in this book. So, I want people to get this book, check it out. It's called Mind Over Grind. And I want to acknowledge you uh guy for for constantly showing up and trying to serve people the best way you can because you have been doing this for four decades. You've gone through your own emotional, mental challenges in your own childhood, in your life. and you use that pain as part of your purpose to serve people, to give people tools so hopefully they don't have to go through what you've been through and other people have been through as well.

So, I want to acknowledge you for your constant devotion to serving people's minds and emotions to feel more joy, love, and peace in life. Um, I've asked you these last couple questions before, but I'm going to see where you're at right now before I ask them. People can follow you on Instagram, Guy Winch. They can also go get the book and your website. I believe it's guywinch.com is your website. Yeah. They can go anywhere and get the book. Mindover grind. Check out your other books as well, which I loved.

How to heal a broken heart and emotional first aid. Is that the other the title? Yeah. Some great strategies in both of those. Um, but this one is called the three truths, which you've answered before, but I'm curious with the wisdom you have now, because it's your last day many years away from now, and you could only leave three lessons behind to the world, what would those three truths be for you? you? you? So I think the number one and it's going to be a different answer than what I said before but the number one thing and this is I guess from learning from writing this book is that we cannot control most of what happens around us but we can control this.

We can control not just how we respond because that's the thing. Yeah. can control how how you respond but you can control how you think more than we actually allow ourselves to do. So it's not just how we respond but how you think. That would be the first one. The second one would be that we really have to look at um what our thoughts are dictating in terms of our reality reality reality because our thoughts create perception, our thoughts create stress, our thoughts create. So our thoughts are actually dictating our reality and we have control over them.

Not entirely obviously but we do. And most people like, well, I can't control what I'm thinking. Like, you can and sometimes you can argue about the thoughts that you don't like. For example, we spoke about this idea of like, you know, the the inner critical voice. It's going to appear, but you can argue with it. You can silence it. You can shush it when it you when it shows up. So, you know, we are more empowered than we think. And and the third, which is going to be super trit in a way, but but I you know, the older you get, the more you see it, is that what matters in life are two things.

Your relationships and your experiences. experiences. experiences. And your accomplishments themselves matter less than the experiences they afforded you. M they they you success you know like you can make a lot of money but unless that allowed you to have certain experiences or to cherish and cultivate certain relationships it's not what you'll remember you know on your deathbed kind of thing. So relationships and experiences are where it's at and relationships and experiences don't depend on success. That's true. And anyone can have them if you prioritize them and realize that's what it's about.

it's about. it's about. It's beautiful. And final question, your definition of greatness. My definition of greatness is, and this might be similar to what I said last time, is constantly learning about you, about the world. It's a it's a constant curve of self-improvement. It's a constant curiosity constant curiosity constant curiosity of what do I keep working on? What do I keep improving? what do I keep learning? What new thing is there for me um around the corner? the corner? the corner? This that that desire to want to get better to to to want to perfect to want to make things and again it's a shifting target cuz life throws all kinds of stuff at you.

So you might have to pivot and suddenly work on this rather than that. But whatever the challenges are to want to master them to want to master yourself and your responses to them to want to improve and become the best version of you that you can be that's greatness. Yeah, appreciate it. Thanks for being here. Thank you for having me. Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. We have a notion of mind and body is separate. Wherever you're putting the mind, you're necessarily putting the body. And so now I have decades worth of research showing that we can put the mind in very unusual places, take the measurements from the body, and indeed the effects are are clear.

What do you think is the root of sickness and illness?