Joe Rogan Experience #2537 - David Sinclair

Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience. Showing my day, Joe Rogan Podcast, my night, all day! Mr. Sinclair, good to see you again. Dr. Sinclair? Doctor. I'm kidding, you can call me David. Yeah, do you ever introduce yourself as doctor? Never. Yeah, that's a kind of a... it's a weird thing because you're allowed to. I'm actually a Sir David from Australia, but... Are you a sir? Yeah, but it's kind of a joke, I don't really... How does that work out? Did you get knighted or some shit? The Queen's representative gave me some Australian version of a knighthood. But I get to put AO at the end of my name. AO? Yeah, Order of Australia. Oh. But it actually makes no difference to my life, so it's just an extra couple of letters. It's kind of cool, let people know. I'm honored, for sure, but it's just a joke. Well, it's kind of anybody, sir. You meet a guy at the gas station, how you doing, sir? It's like, wow, how does he know? Right, you don't say, how you doing, king. Yeah. Right? Well, I'm David. I'm Australian, so in Australia, if you have any ego, you get beaten up in the playground. That is true. Australia is the land of the tall poppy syndrome. They don't fuck around. They don't like you getting a big head in Australia. That is true. I like to go back there, though, because it's a level playing field. Nobody cares who you are. I love the people there. Australian people are some of my favorite people. They're awesome. They're very friendly and fun. It's a great place to be. It's just too far to get there. It's such a haul. Oh, no, if you just, you know, whiskey in an Ambien, and you're there without. Is that what you do? I used to. I've gone clean. I don't drink much at all anymore. What does that mean? How often does he drink much at all? Celebrations. Do you want to drink right now? No, it would be a bad look. I've got the coffee that you gave me. Yeah, this is a Laird's superfood coffee. So, Laird Hamilton. It's black rifle coffee mixed with his superfood stuff, which is, this one's turmeric. So, it's turmeric, and I think it has coconut milk in it and some other jazz. Oh, that's great. Delicious. Anti-inflammatory. Yes. Which I know you're all about. Yes, as a prophet of longevity. Yes. Is that another title of yours? Yes, you can call me Sir David the Prophet. How about that? Sir David the Prophet. Dr. Sir David, the Prophet of Longevity. That'll do. So, there's a lot. Let's just jump right into it, because there is a lot going on in the longevity space. Thank you for having me back on. My pleasure. And by the way, I also want to thank you for, I think this is the fourth time on, which is amazing. Thank you. Congrats on all your success. Thank you. It's been wonderful to see. Also, the book that I wrote, which you first had me on to promote, has done so well, and it's really because of you. And the book, Lifespan, became a bestseller. Not just that, but it's now been read millions of times around the world. It's in 40 languages. Well, that's phenomenal, and it's my pleasure. And that's not a promo. As you know, you don't make any money from books, really, but I'm just honored that it was read by so many people around the world, because it wasn't an easy read. It was high-tech science. Well, people are very interested, especially nowadays. I can't recall a time in my life where optimizing your health and longevity has been more of a subject that people are interested in. Well, I think that's largely because, not to keep blowing smoke up your rear, but largely because of what you did in the book. So the book went global, and it was right in 2019, and the pandemic hit. And I think most people saw their own mortality at that point. Most people under the age of about 70 didn't even think about dying, but then pandemic's like, shit, I could die. And I saw the book take off. You launched it. But yeah, since then, a lot of people have jumped on the bandwagon, and now longevity is, I hear this everywhere I go. It's everything. It's everywhere. It's everywhere. People are constantly talking about different modalities. How often do you cold plunge? Are you sauna? What about the red light? What do you think? Is this legit? Is that legit? Everybody's optimizing everything constantly all the time. But the reason why it's caught on is because if you do follow some of the protocols, you will feel better. And so that's the ultimate goal. Longevity is wonderful, but feeling better in the moment currently, like living your life, should be primary. Longevity, I think, is if you're optimizing your life and you feel better, you will live longer. It's like this. It's all part of it. So if you follow the longevity principles and the ideas behind it, you certainly will live better right now. You will. And it's not even that hard. There are basic things, five basic things you can do or avoid, and you can live another 15 years. It's really not that hard. And that's what I'm excited about telling millions of people today is, and maybe we can go over the kind of things that people can do easily to live longer. Well, I definitely want to do that. But I also want to talk about what is the current state of science as applied to longevity treatments? Because I know that there's some pretty groundbreaking stuff that's in the pipeline right now. Yeah. So since 2019, a lot of what we talked about has come true, which is the amazing thing. We were speculating in 2019 that we could potentially reverse aging. And that was a sin to say that as a scientist publicly in those days. I put it in the book. And it's actually come true since then, certainly for the lab, for mice, monkeys. And now we have a human clinical trial. The first potential human age reversal technology is in people right now. Listen, it completely seems logical. The idea that that at one point in time would have been heresy in science to discuss it. That seems crazy. If people get old and we understand the mechanism, why couldn't we reverse it? Well, I think for a long time we had to accept it in the way that cancer used to be accepted 200 years ago, probably. There was nothing you could do about it. And then my colleagues and I found that aging has a root cause that's the same in pretty much every cell in the body, and that we could control that. And that there were genes that not only slowed it down, but in 2020 we had a big publication that showed we could actually safely for the first time reverse that process, like reinstalling software in the cell to make it work again. And so what is the – is that using CRISPR? What are you using to – Well, we deliver genes into the body like CRISPR. I have a little prop here I brought in my pocket here. What is that? This is a representation of how we deliver the age reversal genes. It's a virus-like capsule that we make in the lab. And this is what's going into the patients right now, into their eyes initially. And the eye is a good place to start. How do you pick the people to get on these tests? They volunteer. I was really fortunate to see the first patient get dosed earlier this year. And that person bravely volunteered to be the first person to get trillions of these injected into his eye to see if it could cure his glaucoma, loss of vision. I bet if you have glaucoma, you're probably like, listen, what's the worst that could happen? Well, exactly. He pretty much was totally blind in one eye, and so there's really nothing that he has to lose. There's a risk that something might go wrong, but not really. The good news is, and I can report to everybody around the world, that nothing's gone wrong so far. Everything's proceeding according to plan. And we're at a turning point, potentially, in human history if it works. So I interrupted you, but explain this little virus transport system. Oh, sure. And for those of you listening, I've got a little rubber ball with spikes on it. It looks a bit like COVID, but don't be scared of it. It's not a pathogenic virus. It's actually a domesticated version of a virus. And this little plastic ball has little adapters. These red balls on the surface of the big ball target it to the cells in the back of the eye. And you can change the balls to target different tissues. We could change that outside little spike and target it to the liver, which we've done, and cured mice of their fatty liver disease as well. But this one's for the eye. And within that big ball is a protein capsule, and inside the protein capsule is our DNA special delivery, which we call OSK or ER-100. ER-100 is epigenetic reprogramming 100, the drug that we know when we put it into human cells, it makes them younger, and then they work like they were young again. This episode is presented by Paramount+. On October 16th, The King returns. Sylvester Stallone is back as mob boss Dwight Manfredi in the Paramount Plus hit series, Tulsa King. With new enemies closing in and his empire on the line, Dwight and his crew prepare for the biggest fight of their lives. Tulsa King, new season, streaming October 16th only on Paramount+. The football season is heating up, and every week feels bigger with DraftKings Sportsbook, the number one sportsbook for live betting. Plus, get extra protection with early exit opt-in, and if your player leaves the game with an eligible injury in the first half, your bet is protected. 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Try it yourself for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash ROGAN. It's rated the number one hiring site based on G2 for a reason. Because on top of the qualified candidates, it also shows you the most interested ones first. Save time and meet great candidates sooner with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash ROGAN. That's ZipRecruiter.com slash ROGAN. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. This sounds like the beginning of a horror movie. You know what I mean? Like the scientist is on a talk show, and the scientist is explaining it, and everyone's at home with their coffee like, Wow, this is wonderful, we're going to get younger again. And the scientist says, Don't worry, it's all going to work out. 28 days later, garbage in the streets, cars on fire, the guy's waking up from a coma, doesn't know what happened, goes outside, these optimized humans are eating each other. I admit, it is science fiction, and I even have to pinch myself that it's actually happening. But we've done a lot of safety studies, and this trial is FDA approved because they've looked at all the data. Well, God knows they never fuck anything up. I figured you might say that. Perfect. Yeah. Well, it's in the eye, so that's why we start with the eye. It's enclosed, it's not going to spread. Nobody's going to grow another eye. And so these trillions of cells that you're putting into the eyes. The little capsule, the virus-like particles. Trillions, I shouldn't call them cells, trillions of capsules that you're putting into the eye. What are they doing for glaucoma? Well, what they're doing is, there are three genes in this DNA package, and I call them OSK. OSK are three special genes that we found safely reprogram cells and reboot the backup copy of youth, which we now believe exists in our body. That's a big deal, that there's a backup copy of youth. Even an old person, I don't see an old person anymore on the street. I just see a person that needs to be rebooted. These OSK genes. You just see, wait a minute, hold on. When you see old people, you don't see old people. You just say, oh, that poor person needs to be rebooted. You're doing the perfect job for you. Your personality is perfectly suited for your occupation. If that's how you actually look at people. Well, I do, and the reason is that we all have this backup copy that the DNA, the instructions to be young, that made us into who we are as kids, is still in our bodies. Almost largely intact. You just need to read it again. And that's why reinstalling software or, I used to use the analogy of a CD. Kids these days probably don't know what a CD is. It's a little plastic circle like a record that we used to put 20 songs on. It was awesome at the time. I think most people know. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. It's a bit of a silly joke. Maybe a 10-year-old does it. When I teach kids at Harvard, most of them have never held a CD. Isn't that wild? Yeah. They're not coming back, but albums, definitely. So think of it like an album that you scratch, and the scratches are like aging, and we are getting rid of the scratches with these three genes, OSK. So let me tell you how these three genes work, we found. There was a person whose name is well-known in science circles called Shinya Yamanaka, from Japan, obviously. And he discovered that there was a set of four genes that could reliably make adult cells, like skin cells, into stem cells. And he deservedly won the Nobel Prize for that in 2006. But that wouldn't be useful here. If I turned you into a bunch of stem cells, you'd probably die within a few minutes. So we don't want to do that. And cancer is also a potential. So it took us about, well, from 2019, it took us a while to figure out that if we leave out one of the Yamanaka genes and just use three, OSK, leave out the other one called M, we'd get safe age reversal, about 75%. have 80% back to youth, but no further. We don't go back to zero, which is what Yamanaka did. And instead of cells losing their identity, which is what a stem cell has, no identity, we regain identity. So it's actually, I could draw graphs, but it doesn't really help listeners. But basically, old age is losing identity of your cells, so they don't work, they forget how to work. That's what we think old age is in my lab. And stem cells have no identity. It was like a very early embryo. In between, our cells have a lot of identity. They function beautifully. We're in our 20s, we're at peak. And what we've done is we've figured out how to go back towards youth, get these cells to work like they did again, get the backup copy somewhere it exists, we're looking for it. And now cells actually behave like they did when we were 20. And if it works, we're gonna have glaucoma patients seeing for the first time. And that's the beginning of a whole cascade of drugs that I wanna develop for diseases of aging and eventually whole body rejuvenation. So the initial experiments are on glaucoma because it's a contained thing. The eyeball is a contained thing, and you could do it that way? Yeah, my student, Wang Chenglu, who was doing this in 2017, I said, let's do the liver. Let's rejuvenate the liver. And he said, no, the eye is a good idea. And he was right. So that's exactly why we chose that first. But just think about how many people have vision problems. It's 40 million just in the US for glaucoma. Macular degeneration is even more. And in the lab, we can cure that as well in the mice. Now, macular degeneration and glaucoma, these are diseases of aging, right, you would say? Or glaucoma is a disease? Oh, yeah. What about people that have had eyeball injuries and things like, is there a backup copy of the eyeball where you could sort of reformat the eyeball structure? You should come work in my lab. At least come visit. I would love to visit. And the reason I say that is, that's the exact question that we're asking. We showed that even if you injure, say, a nerve, whether it's peripheral in your arm or in your brain or in the eye, like the optic nerve, we can regrow those back to where they were. And actually, in 2020, on the cover of Nature magazine, there was the picture of an eye. And in the paper we published, you could see the nerves regrowing back. And so we think that injury is also treatable. Actually, a group in China just took our technology, this OSK stuff, put it into mice that had bad joints, and it regrew their muscle and their bone back to normal. Whoa. And so we're also looking at treating injury, back injury, joints, osteoarthritis. That would be phenomenal. Because there's so many people that are suffering from arthritis. I know so many people with injuries, like martial arts injuries. I have one. My left knee is fucked up. It's annoying. I keep it together. I've got it, like, I maintain it, but it's always an issue. I have to stay on it. It's constantly after me. And there's little you can do, like stem cells, a little bit of relief, but not much. Stem cells give you relief, but not when, once you're dealing with cartilage damage and you're dealing with the, I had a meniscus surgery where they took out a piece of my meniscus, and I had my ACL reconstructed on that knee as well. So it's just an issue, but it works pretty good for like what it should be. Like if we were living in the 1930s, I'd be a cripple. You know? Hang in there because we're gonna be in a world where we can rebuild parts of the body, including joints. The problem with that is like, how does that apply to athletics? We're gonna have fucking super soldiers in every sport. There's gonna be people in every sport that could do what Michael Jordan did and like leap from halfway across the basketball court and dunk. That's probably coming. And there may be DNA tests to see if you've got these OSK genes inserted. And we're working on it, working on a drink and a pill as well for- A drink and a pill? Yeah. I mean, we're now eight years ahead of what the public realizes. Really? In my lab at Harvard, yeah. A drink and a pill, and what's a drink and a pill gonna do? Well, right now it's in mice, so we've still got a ways to go. But when we give the drink to mice, they get rejuvenated. You just give it to 80 year olds. If you're on the way out, like, let's fucking go. Like, give it a chance. Well, this is what the FDA is for. They forbid that. Yeah, that's why we need to get rid of them. Get rid of the FDA and just give it to old people. If I was an old guy and I was like hanging in there, and I'm walking around with a, and you're like, look, this drink and a pill might kill you, or you might be like a 30 year old again. I'm like, let's fucking go. Well, I get emails a lot. I've had to take my emails off public access because there's a lot of people that want this. Oh, I'm sure. There was one guy that wouldn't leave the building until he saw me. So it's getting to that point. Yeah, there's a little bit of that, right? People get a little selfish, like it's all about them. Yeah, and actually the US government blocked an investment from a foreign country into one of my companies because they were afraid of super soldiers. Ooh, what country? Well, they were afraid of technology getting out. Which country? Could I guess? Sure. China. It wasn't. It wasn't? No, no. Russia? It was somewhere in between here and China. Oh, well that's pretty vague. It's a little sensitive, but yeah, the US government does have the ability to block a foreign investment, and they did in this case, 160 million bucks they blocked. Wow. That was a painful episode. So they were worried that people were gonna actually engineer super soldiers. This episode is brought to you by Superpower. Your doctor spends eight minutes with you, and your insurance company decides what blood work you're allowed to get. That's not healthcare, it's a broken system. With Superpower, you have control over your health. For $199, you get all the tools you need to understand your body. It starts with one blood test measuring over 100 biomarkers. Then, they give you detailed insights and a personalized plan built around you, your labs, health history, genetics, wearable data, and goals. Go to superpower.com slash Rogan and take control of your health. Yeah, this technology could give an advantage to Congress. Do you know about the Russian experiments that they did during World War II where they were trying to come up with a chimpanzee-human hybrid? Tell us. Yes, so it's very difficult, obviously, to get information out of the former Soviet Union as to what their top-secret programs were, but there seems to be an indication that there was actual real research to try to, you know, because obviously, Russia lost an incredible amount of people in World War II. I mean, tens of millions of soldiers died in World War II from Russia, and I think they said, "'Wouldn't it be great if it wasn't people?' And so they were doing experiments with hybridization, and they were trying to combine human beings and chimpanzees to create a, you know, a stable of super soldiers that were like some hybrid hominin. Yeah, there's a scientist in New York who does this for a living. What? He does that for a living? Well, he's not creating them, but I've seen, I was on stage with him. He made hybrid embryos. They didn't reach birth or anything. See, the thing is, if that guy's doing that and he's ethical and he lives in America and we have rules and regulations and the FDA and all that good stuff, what the fuck is going on in other countries where they don't have that? Right, right. Well, there's genetic engineering of humans already, and certainly selection. Yes. Even parents today in the US can, if they have the money, they can select. Well, people select. Even based on intelligence. People select for hotness. They select for tallness. They select for intelligence. It's like Gattaca. Yes. It's a great movie if you haven't seen it. It is a great movie, yeah. See if you can find that Russian hybridization program. It never happened, I don't think. I don't think they did it, but there's actually a guy who was also involved in a gigantic fertility scam. Not a scam, per se, but he was a doctor that was supposed to be doing fertility treatments with women, like if you went with your wife to a doctor and said, hey, we're having a hard time getting pregnant, and well, David, I just need some of your sperm, and I'll take your wife's egg, we'll make you a nice baby, and he was using his sperm on everybody. On everybody! Everybody gets mine. One of my kid's partners is from someone in the US who had hundreds of babies. There is a ton of those guys. As I was doing research for this, I started looking up all these stories, and I said, wait, this is a different story? The same thing? There's been a ton of these doctors from fertility clinics that use their own sperm, but this one doctor that did that also claimed that he impregnated an orangutan. Yeah, like how? How'd you do that? Soviet doctor Joseph Stalin. Dictator. Dictator, oh. Obviously. Wanted to rebuild the Red Army in the mid-1920s. With plant-of-the-ape-style troops by crossing humans with apes, Stalin is said to have told Ivanov, I want a new, invincible human being, insensitive to pain, resistant, and indifferent about the quality of the food they ate, which is crazy. The only legitimate source of the claim comes from a 2002 paper in the academic journal Science in Context by the Russian historian of science, Kirill Rassianov. Rassianov's study follows the ill-fated attempt by the Russian psychologist, or physiologist, rather, ooh, that word, Ilya Ivanov, to crossbreed humans with anthropoid apes. His research offers an important warning about the ethical abuses. Brr, brr, brr, brr, brr. Did you do it? What happened? The alleged quote from Stalin is not found in the paper, and there's no evidence of Stalin ever made such a statement. Yeah, I don't know. However, why the Soviets would find such a human-chimp hybridization program in the first place, and what could be learned from this sordid tale of ethical misconduct, is an important topic and fascinating in its own right. That's an interesting way of phrasing it, like a sordid tale of ethical misconduct. However, if you are going to go to war, would you rather have human-made orcs fight for us, or Johnny Robinson, who grew up down the street, who's a nice kid, who just really wanted money for college, and so he signed up for military service, and you're gonna fly him over to fight this war that maybe he doesn't need to die in when you can have these monsters that you made in a lab fight? Yep, and the average ape can kill a human with one punch. Easy, yeah. So they're much stronger than we realize. That's what I'm talking about, let's go. Well, we're in the process of building anthropoid robots that I think will be recruited to the army. Yeah, that's gonna be weird. Like, our robots beat your robots, so give us your oil? How's that gonna work? And if we all have one at home, what stops the government recruiting them all? Right, and also, the real problem's gonna be, we both know, the real problem's gonna be sex robots. Is it a problem? It is gonna be a problem for people that don't have a sex robot. People won't leave home. It's gonna be a problem with people that want a regular person, and there's none available, because everybody's got a sex robot. Yeah, well, it comes with fewer strings attached. It also comes with the same problems that AI comes with, right, where AI says, David, you're amazing, everything you do is wonderful, you should be so proud of yourself. I just love that. No real, we would all love that, but that's not healthy, right? You're so big. This is one of the reasons why actual real relationships between human beings are good, is because you do things that are annoying, you don't realize they're annoying, and then your wife or your husband or whatever it is tells you, hey, you're fucking annoying, and you're like, I'm sorry, I'll fix that. I didn't mean to, that's not what I was trying to do, I was in my own head, I was thinking to myself, you're right, I was selfish. You get better, it's like how people grow. Like, relationships are important to help people grow. Not with AI, like, you can fart in my face any day, David, I don't mind at all. Your farts are amazing. I know the problem is, they're gonna be way smarter than us, too. Right. I don't know how people are gonna say, go stack the dishwasher to one of these robots. They're smarter than all humans combined. Yeah, but they're not gonna mind stacking, that they're smart enough to be bored out of hell, and they're gonna beat us up. They don't care. They're not going to mind doing, like, menial tasks. But while you're doing it, you know, you can go, explain to me quantum entanglement. Like, so while they're filling up the dishwasher. They're gonna go, F you one day. Well, if you have a particle, and the particle's in... Yeah, I just invented a cure for aging. Right. Well, look at what it's done with mathematics. Like, just over the last couple weeks, they've solved more than 50 program, or 50 mathematical equations, that they have struggled for decade upon decade to try to solve. And AI's like, oh, I got it. Yeah, well, biology's a little bit more complicated, but already AI is doing a lot of the science that we used to do in my lab. In fact, what we just recently did it in a couple of months would have taken about 160 years to complete. What? And it's only getting faster. Eventually, someone can make a drug on their phone. Say that again. Two months instead of 160 years. Well, what exactly was it that you had to do? Oh, so this drink and the pill that we're looking for, that's not easy, right? So we have some candidate molecules. We have a cocktail that works, but we want a single molecule. Are you taking this stuff? Not yet. You're thinking about it? Yeah. No one can stop you. Well, that is true. That is true, but it'd be a bad look if I died. So maybe I wouldn't do it. But why's your doctor gonna die? I don't think so. We've done a lot of safety tests, and it looks really safe. But I'm not gonna publicly do anything against the law. Of course. It'd be in private, of course. Of course, not publicly. I'm at a stage where I have to be a good boy because I've got the world watching. A lot is at stake. And if this trial has any issues, it's not good. You gotta dot your I's and cross your T's and follow every, I understand that. But please explain again, because I'm being rude, I interrupted you. When you're telling me that in two months it did something that would've required 160 years of work, like what do you exactly mean by that? Yeah, and now it would probably be impossible in thousands of years. Because what we do is, Looking for molecules, a single molecule that can replace this cocktail. So you need a molecule to do three or four activities in the cell. Finding one activity is what pharmaceutical companies do. It takes hundreds of millions, if not billions, to make a drug. We know that, right? My little lab of 20 people and students, young kids, are trying to make one drug do three or four different things. That's beyond the reach of pharmaceutical experience, at least five years ago. So what we do is we've teamed up with a group at St. Jude's Hospital, where they can take ... It was 10 billion. Now it's a trillion theoretical and also known drugs. With my hands, I'm showing a big funnel. And these trillion- You're really good at podcasts. You're helping out the audio people and everything. I love it. I relaunched my podcast. That's why. Oh, that's why. Yeah. Lifespan, David Sinclair. Shameless plug. So this funnel is full of a trillion molecules, and we have to come down to one. How do we do that? Well, we don't look for a trillion molecules at the bench. That would take 160 or thousands of years with the case of a trillion molecules, even with robots, even with a lot of graduate students. So we do it inside the computer. We just use a lot of compute, and we dock each of these molecules against the enzymes that we now know how they work, thanks to Google DeepMind solved the problem of how do all our proteins look, 20,000 of them. And there's a lot of compute. But out the other end, a couple of months later, we have 200 molecules that we can now test in the lab within a few weeks. Actually next week, we're testing these 200 against human cells. And we've also got AI helping us to tell us if the human cells go from 92 years old back to 20. We can tell that just by looking at them, thanks to the AI. Is there a way to stop them from turning you into a baby, because that's what I would worry about? Yes. Yes. I don't want to be a baby again. Right. Some people are already there. I'd like to cut it off at, like, I was pretty good at 25. You know, I'm going to get attacked for saying this, but that is what we do in the lab. We take 92-year-old cells, and they stop at 20-something. Why would you get attacked for that? Because on the internet, people take a clip, and they say, Sinclair says we can all go back to being 20 again. You suffer from this too, right? They take a clip, and it's out of context. And I'm just saying, cells from humans, skin cells, we take them back to 25. All my students can do this. In fact, if you had these little genes, OSK, in your garage, you could do this experiment. It's not hard at all to reverse aging. The question is, how do you safely make it a drug? And that's been the hard part over the last 10 years. So how would it be able to regulate this reduction or reversal of aging and stop it at 20-something years old? Well, that's what took so long. It wasn't obvious that these three Yamanaka genes called OSK were the right cocktail. My student, who I mentioned, Won Chang, he was struggling. He was trying a lot of different genes. Most of them from embryos, because we know embryos have to do a reset in the first week of life. Otherwise, they stay the age of the parents. And he found that leaving out one of the Yamanaka genes was the trick. And now that we know, it's super easy. But in those days, he was ready to quit. How did he find that out? Well, he tried lots of different combinations, hundreds in human cells. And you look at the cells to see if they get younger. And then we can measure molecularly that they get younger. And are you measuring them by the length of their telomeres? Yeah, partly. But actually, a better measure is the chemicals that are added and subtracted off DNA itself called methyls. And it's just a carbon molecule with three hydrogens. Very simple molecule. But what cells do is they use these methyls to tag genes to be switched off. So when we're growing as an embryo, the cells that want to become neurons will shut off all these other unwanted genes like liver genes and skin genes. And the ones that don't get this methyl chemical stay on for our life. And that's how nerve cells develop and stay healthy. But what happens during aging, a friend of mine, Steve Horvath, discovered that you can use this as a clock. These chemicals, they change over time. And we found that that happens largely due to DNA damage, going in the sun, these kind of things. But it does exist to rapidly age a mouse, which we published in 2023. Oh, so like maybe like some nefarious state actor, like some Russian spy could like inject something in your coffee and you would turn 99 overnight? We know how to do that. Whoa. Yeah. That's the dark side of this. It is. You could spike your husband's drink, fuck that dude, and turn him into an old man. Hey, what did you do? Someone tweeted the other day, if a 92 year old could be 25 again, would you have sex with them? And my response was, yes, but imagine how much they know, but would they have sex with you? Right. That's a better question. That's the question. Yeah. They'd be looking for another 20 year old. Right. So anyway, how do we do it? We can measure those chemicals and determine how old a cell is. Or a human. I could take your skin cells from your mouth or your blood and tell you how old you are. People would be so disturbed by old rich guys dating young women if that was the case. You can tell if they looked young. Because people get very mad at that. You ever notice? Yeah. Yeah. You see some real old decrepit dude with a hot young wife and people are like, God damn it. They get really mad. Right. Right. Now, the best way to do that is to have a big bank account, but eventually you'll actually look young again. Right. But people still get grossed out. I wonder if they would get grossed out if he looked 20. They'd be like, he's praying. He has so much more years of knowledge and information. I don't care if he looks 20. That's a 99 year old man. That day will come. That day will come where you will not be able to tell how old somebody is by looking at them. You'll have to do a test for these genes. This episode is brought to you by Ethos. Life is unpredictable. That's why you need life insurance. It helps give your family financial stability if the worst happens so they can continue living the life you've built. With Ethos, you can get covered in minutes. All online, no medical exam, just a few health questions. With policies as low as $30 a month. Get your free quote at ethos.com slash JRE. That's ethos.com slash JRE. Application times and rates may vary. This episode is brought to you by Visible. As fall hits, we enter another season of change. Time to shift gears, drop the dead weight, and upgrade the wardrobe for the drop in temperature. But one thing that doesn't need to change, your phone. The smartest upgrade this season isn't a new phone, it's a better wireless plan. Switch to Visible, the ultimate wireless hack. You get unlimited 5G data and unlimited hotspot powered by Verizon for just $25 a month. That means keeping the phone you already have, ditching your overpriced phone bill, and pocketing some savings for yourself. All the perks of big wireless for half the cost. Switch today at Visible.com. The Visible plan starts at just $25 a month, or get the premium Visible Plus Pro plan and save $10 on your first month with promo code Rogan. Terms apply. See Visible.com for plan features and network management details. Wow. I wonder if people still lie about their age, if that's the case. I wonder if no one will care. You would probably lie the other way, like, I'm 80. It's right. Tell everybody he's 80. That's right. Well, when we live for hundreds of years, people will do that. They'll be proud of their age. Do you know anything about ancient civilizations and some of the weirdness of the records of like ancient Sumer? Well, only really what I've learned from listening to you. Well, what's really weird is the ancient king's lists, because, so, okay. The theory, the theory among these alternative archeologist types is that there was a very advanced civilization that existed on earth tens of thousands of years ago, and were probably wiped out by comet impact. And what we have today is a rebuild of civilization. There's not a linear progression from caveman to us, and that at one point in time, we had reached great heights. This explains the pyramids. This explains Machu Picchu, Sacsayhuaman, some megalithic structures that don't make any sense, the Trilithon stones in Baalbek, Lebanon, that are hundreds and hundreds of tons that are massive, that are, you know, nine meters off the ground. No one understands exactly how they placed them. When you look at the Sumerian king's list, it gets very weird because there's kings that reigned for thousands of years, and then you have the flood, and then after the flood, the age of these people drops pretty dramatically, and the reigns are, after a few hundred years, become normal, become like a normal person, like 50 years, 30 years, like that. But thousands of years before. And then people are looking at it like, okay, is this just myth? Is this poor record keeping? Do they have just these, you know, hyperbolic, elevated stories about these kings that were so amazing, they reigned for 30,000 years? Or had they achieved, not just in building, because in building, we know they'd achieve incredibly complex structure, like the pyramid, for instance, like they had insane engineering, somehow or another, the ability to move these 500-ton stones from hundreds of miles away. Like, how did they do this? We don't really know, but we know that they did it. Did they also have the kind of technology that you're talking about right now? Because if it's possible today, and if that is a, I mean, it makes it very difficult because it goes against what you would call, like, the modern narrative that they're teaching in universities in terms of the timeline of human history. But if that changes, and we have undeniable evidence, well, it looks like these people were far more advanced than we thought, and there probably was some sort of a reset of civilization. What else had they accomplished, and had they gotten involved in genetic engineering? Had they figured out a way to extend lifespan? And if they did, imagine all the work that you've accomplished in your, you're 57 now? About to be 57? Yeah. You look great, by the way. Hey, thanks. You really do. It's dark. It's incredible. People speculate it's all fake, but it's actually, it's not. But anyway. You're at the- Happy birthday, too. It's coming up. Thank you very much. Yeah. Yeah. I don't look as good as you, though. Yes, you do. It's a different- Physically, you're way better than me. That's different, though. My face looks older. You look very young for your age. You know why? Why? Because I've spent all my time in a lab, and I haven't gone outdoors for a while. I'm sure that helps. That does help. My point is, imagine if you had 500 years to do research, not just 57 years. Imagine if you could continue learning and growing, and they did develop some sort of a life extension technology where you could not just be older, but be healthier than you've ever been before, and live for 1,000 years. You would get so much done. The exponential increase in technological innovation that we would have in this society would be absolutely mind-blowing. Exactly. Exactly, exactly. This is a really important point. That might be what these alternative history people think. That might be what had taken place tens of thousands of years ago. Yeah. Well, I'm a Harvard scientist, so I'm not going to say anything that isn't proven. Of course. That's for me. Yes. That's where I live. That's why I shut up. But you did make some really important points. One is that ancient civilizations have always been way more advanced than we think. Yes. Dinosaurs are a lot more real than we make them look. We always get things wrong looking back in time, and looking forward in time. But the other thing that you said, which is really important, is that if we do have extension of human lifespan, like the Bible and these civilizations suggest, then how will you think about your life if being 100, you're still in your prime? You do things very differently. Who would you marry? What career would you think about? You might have multiple lifetimes, multiple marriages, multiple families. And that will happen. It's not really a question of if anymore. It's like asking the Wright brothers, will we fly? Yeah, we built the glider. We're going to fly around. The question is, will we build a Concorde? Will we go to space? And I think that will happen. Yeah. No, I think so too. I think, well, certainly one thing that we know is that there's a giant difference between people who are 57 years old today versus 57 years old in the 1930s. It's just a giant difference. A giant difference in your physical ability, your health. We'd be old men. Yeah, we would be old men. And what, I mean, when I was a child, I thought of people, I'm almost 59, I'll be 59 in a week. I used to think of a 59 year old as being basically dead. Like you're barely getting around, you know, you're probably tired all the time. Looking to retire. Yeah. Looking to retire. You got no energy. I'm filled with energy. I'm constantly doing... How old is he? 60. That's what it says. Oh no. I don't know if that's accurate. I bet that's accurate. They had no fucking vitamins. Nobody knew what the proper nutrients you should take were. Nobody knew what was really important in terms of resistance training and sleep and red light therapy and all that jazz. And they were doing all the bad stuff, like heavy smoking, drinking, not sleeping a lot. Yep. Not sleeping a lot. And pesticides and all kinds of terrible shit. Sixty year old. What? That guy's 60? That's crazy. No way. I don't know, man. Come on. Shut up. That guy's fucking 28 years old. There's no way. That guy's 60? Is that real? I doubt it. I doubt it. How about that guy that looks 50 and he says, everyone thinks I'm 18, like, yeah, sure. What's that? on Instagram, which I occasionally visit. And he obviously looks old, like he looks 40. Oh, he's a crazy person. And he says, people think I look 18. Oh. Are you crazy? Well, there's a lot of crazy people out there. There's a lot. Well, that's body dysmorphia. You know? There must be. Bodybuilders, they think they're tiny. A lot of people, people are crazy. People have a distorted perception of what they look like. Yeah, the plastic surgery industry is massive It's just growing and growing you can see yeah on the street La especially but imagine a world where you don't need I'm successful You can take a pill your doctor could get it or eventually it's a cream on your face And you literally get younger we do this in mice already the mice get younger is it going to work in humans? I think it's just a matter of time so in the mice Experiments, what have you achieved? Well a lot you know I can reveal here Some of it For the first time we this this pill that we give them to drink actually because they can't chew The mice within four weeks with this cocktail it has three components Which are top secret my lab is sworn to secrecy they after four weeks. We give it to them three days a week Monday Wednesday Friday weekends off within those four weeks they get better physically mentally Excuse me. They so we put them through tests if you just in a couple days. Oh, no three days a week for a month Oh, okay This is the guy he went viral last year. He's been 59 years old what fucking it seems so not real He looks like 30 years 30 exactly he might have just amazing genetics well look at Yoel Romero Well there there are people that are freaks Singapore. Yeah, Wow Twondo quando tan and he's 60 years old yeah, he's been gone Without a facelift yeah, I don't know he certainly doesn't look like he's had a facelift. Yeah, right his skin is fucking incredible Yeah, but he's probably never been in the Sun. It could be full a full AI Account it's trolling everyone. I don't know so that's possible, too Like look at that picture right there like that looks a little AI ish go back to that one again Keep your pants on Jamie That looks very AI doesn't it I'm just it could be Is all his 59th birthday his whole thing is that he's young for his eight looks half his age Wow This will be normal 2024 so it's not this has been going on for a while, okay, so this is pre AI yeah, if it's fake Then he would have been called out now. I feel right so he might just be a genetic freak could be yep Which is interesting right like do you guys study? The different like you know unfortunately certain people that have like like pale people for instance with thin skin They age hardcore they go and there are those kids that get old in their teens right we study that as well We're reversing that But yeah, we do study the genetics of aging that's the real Application for it where people are going to be excited about it people that have that what is it called progeria exactly? Yeah, yeah, and so we have mice that have this same gene mutation And they get old really quickly and we're giving them the drink right now And so in the drink you give it to them how often and for a month. It's once a day Every other day three days a week for a month and Yeah in normal old mice we see them fitter stronger a better memory they run around the cake in just a month It's amazing. We only did a month because it was Christmas holiday season We didn't we didn't want to go for longer, but it worked in four weeks I'm shocked even these genes require six to eight weeks to work for revision recovery of vision And so this this is working on a different pathway Well, here's the cool thing. We we think it's working through the same mechanism the reboot the reinstallation of software The drink because there are genes called TETs There are three of them in the body, and they do something spell that TET capital TET There's one two three and these are genes that make enzymes that remove these methyls off the DNA So they they control the clock and if we get rid of those genes Our system doesn't work. We cannot restore vision and our pill doesn't work without Removing and altering those chemicals so in other words. It's not just because the chemicals make the cell healthier It's actually resetting this clock on the DNA Whoa, and that was the big deal I said why when my student told me and that's why I think it got the cover of nature magazine which is We're actually looking at the clock of life And we've realized that this clock that goes around this biological clock Isn't just a clock when you move the hands of the clock time goes backwards for the body Meaning the clock is aging and aging is the clock Wow, what is it? You don't really know in terms of humans, but is there any indication that improves? Cognitive function in mice Yes I can say without a doubt that other labs and ours have shown that when you reverse the age of the brain in a mouse It gets better at learning and we even have some hints And we're gonna publish this that lost memories come back So Alzheimer's patients, I believe still have memories they just cannot access them and that one day we can reverse Alzheimer's disease by making the brain young and That using that approach making the whole body young we can cure diseases that are currently incurable Holy shit Well young people don't get Alzheimer's why because the body can tackle the problem The young body can heal itself. So my approach is make the body young. It'll heal itself in every way Well, do you have children three? Yeah, one of the things that's just phenomenal is watching them heal Yeah, I'm like it is so It's so wild but also you envy them so much because they get cut and it's like two days later like where's your cut It's fucking gone. Like that's crazy I know my daughter had a cutter She fell and knocked her head and she had this like dark spot on her head like where she got injured It was like four or five days. It was gone. I was like that fucking thing would be with me for four months Yeah, and the good thing is if we rub our cocktail on the skin of the mice, they heal like the young again Oh, well, so that would be like a great application for ladies who want the beauty treatment on the face, right? Cuz that's where we're headed. Whoa. Yeah, just yeah, and we're working on hair We can grow human hair on mice now Really that took a few years and now we can check if we can regrow hair and make it dark again You can grow human hair on mice. Yeah, I'm not allowed to put actually I did post it on Instagram and the university said get that down But it exists we grow it from stem cells from human stem cells We make little balls of hair takes a few months We open up the ball to make a flat piece of skin human skin And we put that in the back of a mouse that can accept human skin And then you get black tufts of hair from humans in a man You get any kind of hair like could I get an afro? I just want to get one to piss people off. I would love an afro like a Colin Kaepernick type. Just a big crazy one Yeah, we can grow you grow hair We can do that. We were one of the few labs that can grow this hair So I thought about doing that for a company, but I think hair transplants would just be easier. Oh Right, so you would grow hair in a lab and then transplant those hairs we can do that. Yeah Oh, well, that's the thing because I got a hair transplant but the way I describe it is like your tape it's like taking people that are really healthy and Moving them into a town where everyone's dying Cuz like you're taking hair from back here where it's gonna stay and you're putting it up here where it's all falling out Oh, I didn't thrive. What's that? It doesn't thrive if you move it. Oh it thrives, but everybody else dies Oh shit, you know, you can only take so much from the back of your head and move it to the top of your head That's why a lot of guys with hair transplants look goofy Cuz you have like this strong hairline in the front and it goes back like that and then everything else looks like chaos That sucks, you know what I take for my hair, what do you take among other things? Viagra Viagra Yeah, actually, I shouldn't say the brand name. That's actually I take it. So that's what I tell everybody that is true It's low dose seven milligrams a day of to tell a film and it's good for a lot of things a lot I know it's good for endurance Yeah. Yeah, I know athletes who take it for endurance. They probably take it to fuck too. Let's not kid ourselves Well, it's a nice. It's a nice benefit When a sign a paper just came out about its role in preventing cancer I tweeted what what's not to love it people love that tweet, but the point is actually last week They found that these drugs In mice and seemingly in people who take these drugs are actually resistant to can't certain types of cancers like head and neck cancer So interesting turning out to be really important blood flow Well two reasons that are not related to blood flow, but they're related to what's called nitric oxide signaling Which is what helps dilate blood vessels in all your body, including your penis The other two mechanisms one showed that to Della feel is good for Exposing the tumor to the immune system. There are certain cells called MDS sees that protect the tumor from getting attacked and The drug stops that so now the tumors shrink in mice and seemingly in people in tumors And then the second mechanism is really interesting. It seems to this was sedanafil. So this is now Viagra found that the cancer is Threat a lot of cancers thrive on cholesterol and this blocks the ability of cancer cells to use cholesterol I thought they thrived on glucose that too Exactly, right. So you want to be in ketosis if you've got a tumor right in general, so fasting is good but now it looks like These ed drugs that might be good for it as well fascinating and wasn't um, I think Viagra was a it was an accident right wasn't wasn't it a blood pressure medication. It's a good story It was for angina right was for your for your heart but the story goes that Women especially and and the men didn't want to give up the drugs that they had left over It was amazing I think it was 75% had a positive reaction for erections and without it 22 So it's it's very clear that it was working. Mmm interesting. And so So, how does it help hair? well, we don't know for sure but there's a lot of evidence that Part of the reason hair dies out and stops growing is a lack of blood flow and the minoxidil that people put on their hair Helps with that, right interesting and then DHT inhibitors Exactly. Also, I'll be do testaride people can take orally The problem with that is my friend had severe depression when he took that. Yeah It really fucked him up and he didn't realize because he didn't understand that that was this It was like what is wrong with me and he was getting suicidal and then he got off of it And it just went away and he's like, oh my god I can't believe that this episode is sponsored by better help You've probably heard about better help before but maybe you haven't heard from those who have actually used better Help that feedback can tell you everything you need to know go to better help comm slash Reviews and check out the feedback from hundreds of people saying how much they love this service It's easy to see why to get started. All you have to do is answer a few questions You'll get matched up with a therapist based on your needs and if it's not the right fit You can switch therapists at any time see the reviews see what stands out and see if better help is right for you Visit better help comm slash JRE. That's better help Comm slash JRE. Yeah. Well, I I'm taking it For a number of reasons including my hair and my prostate see if I can keep it from growing But I fortunately I haven't had that side effect, but everything depends right? It varies biologically depending on the person Yeah, it's important when either of us says that drugs good that drugs bad, right? People realize that you have to test it see and with doctor supervision Yeah, that was where I was gonna get to was like because different medications have different reactions or different people's reactions to medications They vary quite wildly. So like before you Make this public like how how do you determine whether or not this is going to be safe for a Wide variety of people to reverse aging. Oh my drug our drug that we're making Well, we will test it on a lot of people before it goes out into the the wide world And you started testing it on people so far. Yeah, there are people right now who have this These genes in their eye and how's it going? I'm not allowed to say but you wink twice if it's great I Would say that everything's on target Okay, that's good to hear nothing bad to report nothing bad to report. I think those might be the words I'm allowed to say and is that the only clinical trials you've used with any of these applications for for humans so far That was the first glaucoma and also sudden blindness It's called nigh on which is now twice as more prevalent because of the GLP one drugs Really? It's not well known. Obviously companies don't want to talk about it. But yes Sudden blindness has doubled seemingly because of these meds. You have to holy shit Sudden blindness has doubled because of GLP ones due to nigh on which is like a stroke in your eye And then your other eye can go which is pretty scary and there's nothing you can do about it hopefully our drug does work for those people and Well, obviously Correlation does not equal causation, but it seems to be Yeah, there's a scientist at Harvard. You could look up his work Joe Rizzo. It looks like it's repeatable across the planet Wow That's terrible because there's so many people out there that are just telling everyone they should get on GLP one Yeah, I've seen that like by online people like online podcasters saying everyone should get on GLP ones It's groundbreaking technology. This is amazing. It's gonna transform society like We just started taking these the fuck are you saying? Yeah, it's not risk-free same with ad drugs Here goes recent studies suggest that a potential rare link between GLP one receptor Agonist medication such as Ozempeg, Wigovy, blah blah blah and a condition called non arteritic anterior What's that word ischemic ischemic ischemic optic neuropathy an Eyestroke can cause sudden painless loss of vision in one eye while absolute risk remains very low Anyone experienced sudden vision change you should seek emergency mental medical evaluation immediately Well very low is like it's still what does that mean 10,000 people one in 10,000? Yeah. Yeah That's a no total of 10,000. Oh total of 10,000 so far for Taking this time, I think it's pretty the drugs were 68.6 times more likely to develop this and eight times more likely to develop diabetic. What is that? We only got the blurb oh My god, then Wow Yeah, I mean these things are just they're just rolling out and the people that are like super enthusiastic and also They have some sort of a financial interest in promoting these things which Oftentimes does seem to be the case with a lot of these people they have either stock in these companies or some sort of a stake in them Yeah, it's true Though I will I will say to counter that that's GLP one drugs have probably saved millions of lives already and they're pretty common I think it's 10% of people are trying them and 25% want to yeah, I mean they don't work for everybody I have a good friend of mine that had a terrible reaction from it and he was hospitalized and but I know other people where it's completely transformed their life and they've lost a ton of weight and particularly people that just For whatever reason the food addiction was so incredibly strong that whatever Their Constitution the way they're the way they're designed the way they're built the way they've evolved as a person Built the way they've evolved as a human being they weren't capable of overcoming it They take the GLP ones and then they sort of start getting moving and then they lose all the weight They start feeling better. They start making a lot of other positive changes You get that momentum, which I always talk about is which is one of the most important things for transforming your life Everyone wants to talk about discipline. I think discipline is the primary that's the main engine But one of the things that comes along with any kind of an exercise program or changing your life program Where you start getting positive results is momentum and momentum is absolutely huge. Thank you because then you start feeling that's so important This is good. So I think GLP ones are fantastic for getting people going. Yes, everybody should hear this. It's really important I'll give you my example. It's a Classic case. I couldn't fast for more than about a day. I want to do more I know that three days fasting is good a week can be even better, but I couldn't do it I was I don't have a lot of willpower when it comes to this kind of stuff. I Tried a GLP one receptor agonist. I gave it and it was easy I didn't even feel like I needed to snack at night Which is one of the things that I and many people suffer from but the fact that I could do it. I Went off the drug. I didn't need it. But now I can fast for I went for two weeks In a couple of months ago, well, it's easy now like now that I know that I can do it mentally It's not hard at all the momentum. Exactly. I know what's possible. Yeah. Yeah That's fascinating You are you still on a plant-based diet? Mostly? Yeah, I what I had I just had a conversation with a friend of mine about this I don't know how much of the information that he was telling me was totally accurate. But what he was saying was that That He was told before he did fasting that one of the bet because he's a runner He said one of the best ways to get into fasting is to get your body into ketosis first He said and what he thinks is that a carnivore based diet and what he was told was a good way if you could do That for a few weeks it mitigates your appetite like one of the things that happens with a lot of these diets that Regulate insulin resistance is that when you get used to consuming just fats and protein You don't have the kind of hunger pangs that you have with carbohydrates Like when I if I go in a bad streak and I'm eating pizza and pasta and and I've done that in the past I don't really do that much and all unless I'm on vacation in the in the past though what I would get hungry I would get crazy hungry. Like I've got to eat now I don't get that at all anymore because I'm mostly on a carnivore based diet Mostly what I eat the like you look the bulk of my diet. It's meat and fermented vegetables. It's meat and like Kimchi and sauerkraut and stuff along those lines and when I eat like that my hunger is Very easy to control and I've gone 24 hours like like it's nothing not eating It's like not a problem at all. Yeah, that's the most I've ever fasted is 24 hours. Okay. Well see if you can go for three It's really worth it. You feel really great Ketosis, that's what everybody says. Yeah. Yeah, you go into what's called deep cleansing. It's called chaperone mediated autophagy or CMA and a friend of mine in New York Maria Corvo studies this and It cleans out a lot of the old proteins in your body. So ketosis doesn't just make you feel good You're actually renewing your protein in your body and rebuilding it and so I do that as a as an anti-aging thing What I find it's the biggest benefit is mental acuity It's a John it has a giant impact when I stick to the diet in terms of my ability to form sentences Like recall information and just be present in podcasts. Yeah, so in in my podcast What you do is really quite difficult. You make it look easy So when I'm when I'm doing my podcast and often it's solo so it's challenging I forget things I have to remember hundreds of papers for these things. They're quite hard Either I'm gonna fast and if I don't remember to fast I did an experiment. I took some ketones. You can drink these things. Mm-hmm, right? So yeah, there's the one the little drink I think was each on IQ tonight. Yeah, fantastic stuff. Yeah. Yeah, I use that I love that stuff. I do that. I take that before I do UFC broadcast a lot of yeah I actually took some before because one that's great before podcast as well Well, the more than one more difficult things that I do is the UFC commentary because it's six hours It's six hours of talking on air live Yeah, and about fights and and I'm also recalling fights and I'm also I'm seeing positions So I have to remember in my mind how this is finished because like in jiu-jitsu there might be I don't know how many positions there are thousands and there's moves where I'm like, what is he doing? What is he doing? Oh, oh, that's that that's the peruvian necktie. I'm looking at his arms a bit like your brain is fuck I am exhausted at the end of six hours and fucking starving like after the UFC is over. I can eat so much food It's I'm so hungry, but you take a little drink. I take a little ketone ketone IQ. I take nootropics I drink this stuff. My friend Derek makes this his guerrilla mind. It's just a nootropic. Oh, I guess it's a nootropic cocktail with Um Caffeine in it. This stuff's really good for a podcast. I also take alpha brain alpha brain black labels phenomenal for that There's a bunch of different ones that I take the gum Neurogum neurogum is excellent for that too, but I just do fucking everything I can to maximize that's how you do it All right. Yes secret is now out. All right, but what you do is amazing and I thought you were on modafinil or something No, I've taken that before in the past But the problem with that stuff is I think I like it too much and I want to take it all the time Oh, you know when I used to take that if I had a gig in San Diego And I drive home after the gig and it was like, you know One o'clock in the morning when I'm done and then I'm like, I'll just go home It's only two and a half hours and I start making the drive and you just get so tired But if I take new vigil or pro vigil before I do that, I would be able to drive. No problem On what's that? Can you sleep after that? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it doesn't seem to affect your ability to sleep, which is really interesting It's not like caffeine. Do you do it? Do you take it at all our armodefinil for talks when I'm you know, traveling Does it help you definitely would it like in what way? It gets rid of my jet lag and I can focus my brain often is either scattered or filled with facts that I Causes me like now to not be able to talk properly But if I'm on it, which I'm not I'm on point every time For me the best thing for jet lag is exercise. There's something about regular rigorous exercise It doesn't even have to be long it just has to be where my heart rate gets really elevated like above 150 beats per minute for a 15 20 minutes like I have to really go hard where I'm sweaty and breathing heavy, you know Especially if I could jack it up to like 180 190 like I'm doing like Tabata sprints on an airdyne bike that kind of stuff Completely resets me. Yeah hard kettlebell workouts Like I'll do like a hard series where a minimal amount of rest in between so I'm really pushing it once I relax I'm back. It's like it whatever it is where your body just needs to like shake it up and like get all of it Out of your system. It's like now I feel completely normal. Yeah Well, you might remember last time we talked about hormesis Yeah, which doesn't kill you makes you stronger and that's what you're doing. You're putting your body into survival mode so one of the reasons I Mostly plants why I take and a man and these other molecules is to mimic that I don't work out like you do I should but I don't and Why don't you? Uh, I think partly because I've told myself I'm too busy Which is bullshit. I Need it. I need a partner who will motivate me. I think that would help maybe just get a trainer That's that's a solution. You got some cheddar get a trainer. I Got some share. I was that money money. Yeah, no, I can definitely hold one Yeah, and you know, it's on me. I actually I will own that that I have to get it I just was explaining this to my friend last night. It was like I gotta start working I'm like just get a trainer get a trainer someone who's good and that way they'll develop a program for you All you have to do is just show up and do what they tell you to do Just do it and it's mindless You could just like just go through what they tell you to do and you'll just you trust the process. You'll improve radically All right. All right. Here's what we're gonna do. Okay, I'm gonna take you guys We're gonna do you're gonna get me a jug of that fucking juice of this stuff. All right, and you'll be my trainer Well, I will I've done that before with my comedian friends. Really? Sure I'll just come I do it the right way where I take him through it. Very easy I don't have him work out hard at all, especially in the beginning. Everything is like nice and easy It's like a little bit of strain. You're not gonna be exhausted afterwards and I would build you up I'm a bill. I'm a firm believer and not overtaxing the system on people that are sedentary I really think it's a slow gradual process. I think you have to get better the same way you got sick over time Okay, good. You make radical changes in a short period of time. Don't get me wrong and even just a little bit of you know Moderately rigorous exercise a few days a week will a few days a week will give you great improvements But I'm not one of those guys is like, you know We're gonna do two hours today and you're gonna go to failure and you're gonna be throwing up in a garbage pan You're not gonna do that again the next day. I want you to do it again the next day I want you to have a nice workout where you know You're doing like 10 push-ups and 10 sit-ups and 10 bodyweight squats And then we're gonna do some of these kettlebell cleans and kettlebell nothing hard Like everything's gonna be like whoo. Okay, you put it down. You're fine, and I want you to leave Rejuvenated like you feel like oh that was like exhilarating nothing crazy and then we'll slowly start to add a little bit over time That's what I think the right thing to do with people who don't work out all the time You can't just jump in and you know, it's like working and skipping meals You just can't do a day or three without practicing. 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This episode is brought to you by the farmers dog Here's a fun fact research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer On average than dogs who are overweight Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist and trust me. I know I buy one the farmers dog. I use it for both my dogs They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me It's human grade food. 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Just go to the farmers dog Rogan this offers for new customers only well, it's also you're gonna get injured and this is one of the main things that happens to People that dive right into the deep end of the pool when they start working out is they get hurt they get muscle pulls They get back aches They got all these different things that happen because I think you just pushed your body too quickly, you know It's like you're in boot camp like well, you don't have to be in boot camp This is not the way to do it. The way to do it is like slowly build Build up and trust the process, slowly. Start by, if you're overweight, like my friend Jelly Roll, he lost 250 pounds. What did he do? Started walking, just started walking, walking around the neighborhood. Walk around the block, walk upstairs, just slowly. And then change the diet, and then add some stuff, and next thing you know, you're doing this, and write it all down, too, that's the other thing. Write down what you're gonna do, and write down how you feel, and then keep doing that. And if you can do that all the time, you'll start developing this momentum that we were talking about, where you're like, okay, I'm on the course, I'm on a process. But it doesn't have to be like, you're exhausted, and then you go to the lab, and you're like, I can't even fucking concentrate. You know, I was doing Tabata sprints on the Airdyne machine, like this is crazy. Well, that's, it's really good advice, and I'm gonna take you up on it. So let's say I'm lucky enough to come on the show again. Yeah. I'll wear a tight T-shirt. Let's go. Right, so, 20 million people are gonna do that. You're gonna have to get off that fucking goofy plant-based diet. Well, let's speak about that, because that's one of the things we disagree on. I'm on a plant-based diet, because I've seen a lot of work, on animals at least, that plants promote longevity. I eat a lot of protein. It's interesting, because you're not an animal. You know that, right? I'm not a mouse. You're not a mouse. I'm definitely an animal, but I'm not a mouse. You're a human. I agree. Meat is the most nutrient-dense food that's available. I love meat. I love meat. She eats it all the time. I believe that there are two states that we can be in. I should try meat, and then we can see if it works. You'll feel great. Because I've been measuring myself with rings and blood tests for the last 20 years. You should try elk. I'll get you an elk steak. I'd love to try. It sounds good. I'm not against meat. I will eat it. You'll eat it, and you'll be like, whoa. Yeah, don't get me addicted to meat. You feel it right away, like, ah. Ooh, all your synapses will start firing. Your body starts like, yes, this is what we wanted, David. Here's some science, which is what I do. There are two states. This is my theory. There's the abundance mode, which is very good for health. You'll build muscle. You'll heal better. That's meat. Kill the mammoth. There's adversity mode, which is we're out of meat. We gotta eat roots and berries. That's adversity. We gotta run, running, exercise, eating less. That's adversity. Both are good for you. This one is pro-survival. This one is pro-growth. This one is longevity. This one is you're gonna be stronger, fitter. How do you determine that, though, in terms of what is longevity versus what is just health and vitality currently? Well, it's based on the last 30 years of research in a variety of animals. This doesn't have to do with the blue zones, does it? No, I'm not involved in it. Because you know that's all horse shit, right? I read that recently, yeah. Isn't that nuts? It's a lot of it's fraud. Well, records are hard. Well, it's not just hard. A lot of it is actual fraud, where people are getting checks for their grandpa, and grandpa was dead. So they weren't writing it into the government. They didn't expose, like, this was the problem with Okinawa in particular, is that they would have to, in order for these people to get taken off the list, they would have to inform the government that this person died, and they just didn't do it. And so they had this list of people that they were counting in their census that were, like, so old. Like, this is crazy. What are you people doing? Everyone's 100 years old. The oldest person in the world, apparently, 122. There's a theory, not proven, that the oldest person in the world was actually the daughter who was faking it to get taxes, or avoid taxes, I think it was, in France. I hope that that's not true. I bet it's true. People are full of shit. Well, either way, the maximum human lifespan is around 117, 18, which is still a lot more than we live. And what's really crazy is none of those people are doing everything right. Exactly. They're all smoking cigarettes and drinking wine and having a good time. And that's a factor that we really need to take into consideration. Loneliness and isolation and sadness are one of the greatest contributors to poor health outcomes. It's number one. Is it really? Yeah, Robert Voldinger at Harvard had a study for, I think it was 40 years, World War II vets. They looked at everything, blood pressure, cholesterol. The number one thing that predicted longevity in those men was having a reliable partner. Mm. Yeah. Not just a reliable partner. Someone that you love. That's true. Someone that you want to be around all the time. You enjoy them. You still enjoy their company, which is possible. Most people don't believe that's possible. Well, you're a role model in that. I love my wife. I have fun with her. I've been with her for a long, I've been married for 17 years. I enjoy her. I enjoy hanging out with her. She's cool. She's a fun, and I have friends that aren't in situations like that. And it's so bad when you're, like, I have a friend who just, we were actually talking last night. He just got out of a crazy relationship where he was dating this girl for seven years. It was chaos and this and that. And I said to him, and he was like, he's 40, and he goes, I don't think I'm ever gonna have a relationship again. He goes, it was so bad. He goes, being single feels so good. And I said, there's an old saying, it's so much better to be alone than to wish you were alone. And he's like, yes, that's it. Because he was with this crazy lady, and he was like, I just wish I was, and he finally got free. And now he's like, I think I'm ruined. And I'm like, it doesn't have to be like that. You can find someone that you actually love, and you really enjoy their time. You enjoy being with them. It's possible. There's good people out there. But you gotta also be someone that that kind of person wants to be with. That's the other thing. For sure, and stress of relationship. We've seen in studies that clock with those chemicals on the DNA, it accelerates when you're under stress or going through a breakup. Oh, yeah. Oh, God. You see it too. Oh, I've seen people going through divorces, and it just takes decades off of their life. They just look wrecked. And it takes a year or two for them to achieve equilibrium again. It's hard. It is, it is. I went through that actually just during COVID when our family got shoved in a house together. And yeah, it was brutal. It was unexpected too. Wow, that's the stress test, right? It was super stress. It was super stress. It's funny that you said that. Without the pandemic, we might've been able to make it. But forcing us all to be in one little house with no internet working well, it was tough. But any case, I'm great now. I'm very happy. But I do know how bad it can get. And it's brutal. Yeah, bad relationships can fucking wreck people. I mean, it can wreck your health. But also, it's not just relationships in terms of your significant other, husband, wife, partner, whatever you wanna call it, but also bad relationships at work. Like if you have a tyrant for a boss, and every day you're working overtime, and you're getting yelled at, and you're on the phone, and you're at home trying to keep up with work, and you never get, like that kind of relationship where you have this antagonistic, terrible relationship with people that you work with, that's bad too. Oh, for sure. Your body doesn't differentiate between romantic relationships. And those kinds of relationships are almost equally bad. Cortisol will be high. This will accelerate you. I used to keep fish. I was one of those people at school. And the fish that got picked on by the dominant fish was small, like color, lived short. It's biology. If you're picked on and you're stressed, you're gonna age faster. Fortunately, I think you're probably the same. At my age, I've managed to weed out most of the jerks, and I don't work with them at all. I've got a great partner who we have a hobby of longevity together. So I'm lucky in that regard now. You found a new one. Yeah, longevity specialist, imagine that. Congratulations. Well, that's nice too, right? Find someone who just like thinks the way you think, and has similar likes and interests. It's fun, like you say. Yeah, that definitely can help. Yeah, I know a lot of my friends that are in really good relationships, their significant other has the same hobby as them. Whatever it is, they both like to climb mountains, or whatever the fuck it is, find a thing. But that helps too. So you actually enjoy spending time together doing something that you're both really excited about. That helps too. So relationships is one. And the other four major ones from that study were don't smoke, don't drink, get enough rest, and get exercise. And that was enough to extend by 15 years. But what about those old people that live forever and do smoke and drink? Because that's kind of weird. Well, they're 0.01%. They're not examples of what typically happens. Is that really what it is? Yeah, it's just much. So the majority of people who get old and live to like centenarians, like what are the common things that they have? The big one is that they don't stress a lot. They usually have a good sense of humor. Hmm, interesting. Right, they haven't been overweight. And they say that they typically couldn't remember when they last got sick. I wonder how much time Twitter takes off your life. Yeah, we should study that. It's already taken a lot off mine. It does. And if you read the comments, even. Yep, exactly. I'm so much happier since I swore off of all that stuff. It's just not good for you. It's really, really bad for you. It's also, you're constantly dealing with the problems of the whole world, which I think is a lot for a human being that lives in a community, in a neighborhood. That shit that's happening over there really shouldn't be a primary focus of your life, like where you're in the moment actually doing your life. It's not the same. You're not in the same area as this problem. But yet this problem is overwhelming your all day long life. And you're in fight or flight constantly. All day, all day. And you're worried about the climate. Oh my God. Like there's so much. There's so much that freaks people out that it really shouldn't be affecting you at all. Exactly. And actually the world doesn't change if you don't read it. So it's. That's the key. That's the key. But then you're like, well, you need, you're passing off the responsibility to other people. You should get involved. Like, you should get involved. I'm gonna be over here. That's right. Well, if you focus on doing something good and you're good at it. Yes. Like yourself. I think that you don't need to be doing more than that. You can't focus on everything. And anybody who tells you can is a fool or anybody who tells you what you should or shouldn't be focusing on is a fool. Yeah. A few years ago, someone at a talk that I gave said, you should be working on climate change. Fuck off. I said, after I cure aging, I'll get to climate change. Yeah. Why don't you go to China and tell them to stop making coal factories. Shut the fuck up. Just shut up. No, you're not gonna fix it. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody is, somebody's working on it and that's their goal and God bless them. Good luck. Yeah, well, what I try to spend my day is efficiently helping the world so that people ask me, why do I study aging in the first place? And it really is that I'm trying to please my grandmother, like some of us. She was the one that told me that I need to make the world a better place and she's gone now. That's what she said to you? When I was four, it's been that ever since. She told me two things. Humans are evil. She lived through World War II in Hungary and the Russians came in and raped everybody. She said, and then, so she escaped to Australia and then she said that the other issue is that we don't do enough as humans to better the world. And so I had that stuck in my mind. She also, by the way, said, oh, we all die. And I thought, that's not really fair, is it? And that set me on this path. Make the world a better place and we all die. And you're like, ah. And what I've noticed with my kids is that even if you tell them that, they forget about it because it's brutal to think about death every day. But for some reason, it's just stuck in my head. And every day, I'm like, another 150,000 people are gonna die today due to aging-related diseases. So my lab is mission-oriented. If we are a day late with something, it's a lot of people that are suffering potentially avoidable diseases. That's why it's sort of understandable that people show up outside of your lab and like, I need to talk to you. I need this. Yeah, blind people wanna get in the trial. It's big. And I think if the trial works, it's gonna be a very strange world, especially for my lab and for me. But we'll see. And even if it doesn't work this time, the science is strong enough that we'll figure it out. We will do this. It's just a question of when. And so do you think that AI is gonna have a significant impact on the kind of improvements that you're able to? It already is. We're going super fast. And AI has revolutionized biology. It's revolutionizing everything, of course, but particularly in biology where we used to have to read 15 papers a day. Now we can read a million if we want. It's totally different. Wow. Yeah, it's a super brain. A 19-year-old came to my lab this summer and the lab grows from 20 to 40 people. And we're trying to figure out how do these three genes reset the cell? How does the cell remember what it was 30, 40 years ago? Where's that information stored in the cell? And I've got this theory that there's some new biology, there's a record in the DNA somewhere. And I gave him that task. I said, can you just go to the databases of the whole world, look at all the data that's there, it's exabytes of data, and see if my prediction is true, or at least you can get evidence for it. Two weeks later, he came back and the whole team, not the whole team, but five other people were smiling. We have to show you something, David. All right, come to my office. We sat down, he shows up on the board on this LCD screen. I think we found the smoking gun for what your theory suggests. And he used AI to process all that data. And the AI came back and said, yeah, you're probably right. And it's a 19-year-old straight out of high school who did this. Wow. That did something that the whole field and all these professors and all these fancy sirs could not figure out until now. That is phenomenal. That's so promising. It's so exciting. It is. I mean, the future really does belong to people who can wrangle AI, even on their phone. I think people on their phones are gonna be making medicines, or at least designing them. Or bombs. That's the problem. And bioweapons. Right. You recently had, was it Anna on the show, to talk about bioweapons and this kind of stuff? That is a big worry. I actually had to disclose to the U.S. government when I first got here, that I did have the capability of making a bioweapon. The Anna Jacobson episode that we just did on bioweapons was absolutely. Terrifying. Yeah, she's you know, I mean she scared the shit out of the world with her nuclear war book and now she's scaring everybody With her bioweapons book. Yeah. Yeah, that's scary It is what what I've got is a database of all known pathogens and new ones that could come So I'm trying to do my bit there to help the world if it happens again Pandemic or something unnatural. Yeah Well, that would be I mean when you think about diseases that people get that just like wreck their entire body if you really do Have an original copy somewhere in their genome of what they look like as a healthy person and you could Switch that back on with a factory reboot. I mean we could potentially get rid of all diseases, which is just bananas and injuries fix injuries grow new limbs potentially there's A new paper that just came out a few days ago that showed that the tips of the fingers of baby mice can be coaxed Once they've healed over as a stub to regrow part of the finger the talent people done that before Yeah, they found just two factors were enough. So it's not that hard The point is we've got the instructions to be young and to regrow body parts in our body. We just don't use them That's nuts so like a salamander can grow an extra leg or a leg that gets chopped off Yeah, I believe we still have that capability. We just don't use it. It just didn't make sense to regrow a limb It was quicker and safer just heal it over as a stub and move on but salamanders which get their limbs presumably eaten pretty often maintain that ability so give us you know, I Wouldn't say that we could evolve this but I think using a combination of our technology Plus this new technology that we're seeing come out where these two factors can grow new limbs I don't see a reason why we can't become like a deadpool where injury doesn't hurt us Aging can't hurt us and we can regrow body parts. How far do you think we are away from being able to regrow body parts? Oh, I mean realistically probably a couple of decades, but I I've seen enough That's not that far seen enough to know that it's doable couple of decades ago was 2006 Well things are going super fast, I mean 10 years ago, we didn't even know aging was a reversible and now it's in humans That's nuts think of that but well 2019 here there was no AI right 2019 it was an idea That we had just got the result in mice and I divulged that to the world then it was published And then we're in humans now, so if it works Then you know, it's gonna be a very different world and you're you feel very confidently that some of this stuff is gonna work Well, it's gonna work I don't know if this trial is going to be successful, but there's gonna be a lot of people doing these trials I have some competition now. Do you know about that? No So since I started my company life biosciences, which is doing the trials in with ER 100 others have jumped joined in and the party So Jeff Bezos and others have started Altos pharma They are based in three cities around the world. They have a few billion dollars to catch up Sam Altman has retro bio and Let's see Brian Armstrong from coinbase the CEO started one called new limit and they've got a lot of money all billions You think it's good that there's all these people involved in this I welcome it. Yeah competition. Yeah Yeah, I'm not doing this for my own personal benefit I want humanity to be changed the way it could be and The more people like Jeff Bezos the more people with a large bank account that are invested in this the better Fantastic, and of course a guy like Bezos. He's balling out of control. Why wouldn't you want to live forever? Well, what's left if you've got everything else, you know? Well also it's like It's like if you've got the amount of money that he has and you can tackle all these different issues You know like a space program that he's working on all these different things like of course Why wouldn't you want to do cool things? Like what's cooler than being able to grow limbs? Yeah. Yeah Yeah, what's cooler than being able to cure all diseases and reverse aging? Well, there's I don't think there's much cooler that that's why I'm doing it because that I think can be the biggest gift to humanity Is what you just said? So I don't know if I'll achieve it probably not in my lifetime But at least I've moved the needle and pushed the ball ball globally in that direction. I Wonder if we're gonna get to a point in time where we can engineer consciousness And in terms of like find out like you find out someone's a sociopath you find out someone's a kleptomaniac or Someone's an arsonist like whatever it is. Like if you could Figure out like what these little flaws are in the way the mind works if we can completely map it out and go. Oh This is the error. This is where you you're not making these two connections. Of course, it's all just biology and engineering There's nothing that stops us and this is the century that we are able to control our own biology starting with cancer heart disease and aging a True utopian world of peaceful people. Well, I'm a peaceful but healthy not peaceful. I don't think world peace I think curing aging is easier than world peace Well, if everybody achieved a state of consciousness that allowed them to understand that we're all in this together Yeah, how do we do that mushrooms? this episode is brought to you by Traeger food cooked over real wood is Just on another level and that's why Traeger is such a game-changer their grills run on real hardwood pellets So everything gets that legit wood-fired flavor whether you're grilling steaks Smoking ribs cooking chicken or even baking a pizza You just set your temperature put your food in and let Traeger handle the rest It's simple if you like food that tastes like it came off a real fire without all the work check out Traeger grills This episode is sponsored by better help if you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner better help insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session and with World Mental Health Day on the 10th now is the perfect time to give it a try In fact, don't even wait until the 10th because all that stress you feel it's not waiting around So instead of letting it build up sign up for a therapy session and unload at any time not just on World Mental Health Day if you've been waiting to start therapy better help works with more than a hundred and twenty-five health plan networks and Eligible members have an average copay of just twenty three dollars per session with insurance Don't have insurance or live outside of the United States You can still get 10% off your first month visit better help calm to explore your payment options That's better Help calm. Yeah. Well, there are there are certain companies working on this. I know that's what's interesting, right? Like Eli Lilly is involved in pharmaceuticals Well, the pharmaceutical company rather is involved in psychedelics. They just bought a tie I think it was like 3.8 billion dollars. So they're all in with real capital. Yeah, I love it. Yeah me too. That's great I love that they're doing that we need more of that. There's too much depression Uh-huh anxiety in the world and drug addiction I mean, that's why I went to the White House and got the president to get involved in this executive order on ibogaine Yes, because I've talked to so many people that have had their life completely turned around with ibogaine so many people that were Opioid addiction and also brain injuries oddly enough brain injuries all sorts of TBI and CTE that they've had like phenomenal results from this Iboga tree, you know, which is so crazy that this thing had been around for so long and is a Schedule one substance in the United States for no reason whatsoever. There's no risk of addiction. There is no recreational use of it It's a horrible experience. I've not done it But apparently it's fucking terrible and it lasts like 24 hours like no one's got to be doing that for funsies, right? Well, the question I think that comes up with all of these drugs is do you have to have the trip and experience the craziness? We get the better get the benefit and I don't think so. I think you should be able to separate well, you know They've actually figured this out with LSD. Yeah, right. Do you know about this? Okay, so they've been Engineered a a different version of LSD that doesn't give you the hallucinogenic effects But does give you the the benefits in terms of like the cognitive effects. I tell you guys or someone else I don't know what company has done this see if you can find that. I think it might be a time But what they've they've essentially done and I think it's it's basically in the lab work stage right now I don't think that's applied to humans yet. But what they've done is Engineered a version of LSD that has all the positive effects that LSD has in terms of like introspection be able to like rethink and remap and reset the way you view things but without like Watching people's face melt and thinking that demons are eating you and all the weird stuff. Yeah that comes outstanding It it should happen with with psychedelics the way it's happened with all medicines, right? With yes something from the bark of a willow tree and then we have aspirin, right? Yeah, not eating bark anymore, right? But sometimes the bark is the really wait the way to go Right. Unfortunately, sometimes that's the part of the problem as these it's pharmaceutical drug companies They patent these natural compounds and you know use petroleum based synthetic methods of creating these Medications now that they can sell and profit wildly off of whereas the really the best way to do it is actually to get the plant It's true that there's the whole issue though that if it's not Approved then it's the Wild West. You don't know what you're getting right? That's true, too. We need a middle ground We need something you can get fast. Yeah market that's known to be safe. So what we're gonna need is mind reading Because we need to know if people are full of shit. That's what we're gonna need. We're gonna need gotta work on that Yes, I think that's that's gonna change humanity more than anything. I think you've got a good bullshit detector. It's okay There's a few people that have snuck through Unfortunately, you know some people they get through and they're like it takes a while and you're like, ah Shit, they're never coming back on the show. Yeah. Well, there's that it's the the show, you know You you learn a lot for a person in about three hours, you know You could kind of after a while you can kind of see little things and you have to be forgiving and you know you have to be charitable and some people are just nervous and they misstate things or they Exaggerate things or they forget something to get it wrong. But then there's people that are just essentially, they really don't care about anybody but themselves and Some of those people are really good at pretending to be people. They're really good at You know, they're really good at pretending to be like a normal person. Oh, here's the LSD thing LSD thing, right? Researchers recently engineered an LSD analog called. How do you say a plus-minus JRT? That appears to keep many of the LSDs brain beneficial and cognitive effects while dramatically reducing and possibly eliminating It's hallucinogenic trip in animal studies So it's almost the same molecules LSD But scientists swap the positions of just two atoms in the structure the subtle change makes JRT Bind more selectively to serotonin receptors in a way that promotes neuroplasticity growth and repair of synapses, but minimizes hallucinogenic signaling that is that's incredible Antidepressant look at this strong antidepressant effects at doses reported to be around 100 times more potent than ketamine in standard rodent tests cognitive benefits improved cognitive flexibility and Performance in tasks modeling the negative and cognitive symptoms of schizophrenia. Holy shit. That's incredible When when and where do we get it? Well, I think it's fairly recent You see Davis study. They just developed it Oh, it's in my shout out to our AI sponsor perplexity for providing us with this information. This is again I mean like we could just get this information now through AI like I mean this that AI for our show has been gigantic I mean just the ability to just ask it a question instead of Google searching and have to go through all these different fucking articles What does it say? What is that? Who's right? What's this one? What's the website? You just ask? AI and perplexity just gives us all the information so Proceedings from National Academy of Science researchers at California of San Diego Davis, excuse me University of California Davis Reported the creation of JRT chemically modified version of LSD. So this is like what year So 2025 so last year, hmm, so it's exciting five years away, but yeah, you're right that the timeline I had a minimum usually takes that long, but that's exciting. At least there is there that you don't need to lose How about for schizophrenia? Yeah, that's something. Yeah I mean that that is incredible because that is one of the saddest things to watch somebody fall into the grips of schizophrenia Yeah, I've seen people fall in and come out which is interesting. I thought for the bullshit detector we could have an AI that either dings or has a Green or a red on your forehead. I'm pretty good at it But I think no one's no one's perfect at it. And I think ultimately if we get to a place whether it's a Technological innovation or or what-have-you where we can actually read the contents of someone's thoughts I don't think that's outside the realm of possibility. Ah You'd need an implant. I think but Elon says the Neuralink is gonna be able to pull that off Yeah, you're gonna be able to talk without using words And I'm like what I think he's right though. I think if we all like lock into a hive mind and And and then if we develop like through AI if we develop a universal language worldwide Well, we already have that. What do we have? Well the new headphones from a big company that I won't name you can translate translate. Yes translate But it's translating to English. Yeah, we just all the problem with that is there's context There's all sorts of different things that other cultures different languages When it's deciphered and changed and translated into English you lose a lot of the meaning and the Context is weird. Okay, if we develop a universal language That would be ideal English is a good substitute. I was shocked. I'm always shocked traveling globally how many people can just speak English now Yeah, it's pretty amazing. It's good America rules. You're welcome Well, we have to thank Britain for that America should say you're welcome. Yeah, they they they're they're cute They did a good job of starting it out, but we took the ball and that is true. So who's next China? No, I don't want to learn Chinese. That's too hard. It's all fucking characters. That's ridiculous Even people that I know that could speak Mandarin. They can't write it, you know to like to get to that level I have a couple friends that speak fluent Mandarin and they can't write it Writing is yeah. Well the students in my lab who come from China They're being picked on by by the immigration, but they don't want to go home. They love it here I'm sure because they're stealing all your secrets and I bring it back. What is that? There's a lot of regulation on that now as a scientist. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, I could imagine Yeah, I mean it has to be because that is an actual the real threat exactly So the people that come through my lab have to be vetted now, right? But the people that come over here and experience the kind of freedom that you have in America Oh, yeah, I came here from Australia. Australia is pretty free. But compared to Australia America is so different. Yeah, I can't go back What's the big difference? That I feel I can do anything I want if I just put my mind to it. There's not social barriers There's not monetary barriers at least for a white Male like me. He's got a degree. I know it's not for everybody, but I feel like if I want to start a company I've got a great idea. I can do that here fat chance You'll do that in Australia people aren't willing to invest in great ideas down there. Not not often That's a bummer. Do you think that changes anytime soon? No, you the u.s. Is so unique There's a lot of money flowing people are willing to place a bet and even lose the money That's rare Australians most of the world if not all people are scared to lose their money if they have it Okay, I risked it I helped the world I feel good It's a very generous country very and I love it here. It's when I arrived here. I just felt I'm home I love hearing that from people that have come from somewhere else because it kind of reaffirms why People in America are so proud of what this country is should be Yeah And that's why it bums me out where people are so mad at America in terms of I get look in terms of foreign policy and some of the things that are wrong with America But just in overall this experiment and self-government is pretty remarkable Yeah, I watched the TV show. Was it the American experiment came out for the anniversary of 250th? I haven't seen it. You got to see it. What's it? Oh, it's it's the Founding Fathers and their lives and how they were fighting and what what was going on behind the scenes Hmm, they were just young kids. They're in their 20s 30s. I know that nuts Yeah, just Benjamin Franklin was the old dude, but that was so young But but they were they were in the middle of it. They kind of realized they were making history But so many things could have gone wrong We would not have had the United States if just a few votes went one way or the other a few wars Yeah a few Battles that exactly the u.s. Was losing. Yeah, Oregon's Britain badly. Yeah Yeah, yeah, we don't think the French enough actually I know right somehow they became our enemy Yeah, remember during the the Gulf War they turned French fries into freedom fries because people hated the French Yeah, but everyone hates the French because they're so arrogant. Sorry French I have some friends who are good good friends. I think generally when people are arrogant. It's because they did something fucking awesome Well in the 1800s they did they conquered Europe No, not sure if that's awesome. Here's a fun perplexing search I just did I said do Americans have a risk gene and a risk gene? Yeah, one of the best studied variants in the dopamine receptor gene dr. D for specifically the seven repeat 7r version It's associated in some studies with novelty seeking impulsivity and higher financial or social risk-taking I wonder if I have that gene for sure this seven probably not who knows The 7r variant is unevenly distributed around the world its populations in populations across the Americas It shows up at roughly 48% of chromosome studied while in East Asia. It's found in only about 2% Wow That's crazy It all comes down to genetics Evolutionary work suggests it became more common in groups that migrated further after leaving Africa and those lineages are strongly represented in the Americas today that Actually, I was thinking of the people that you know had the balls to fucking come here. Yeah Well your balls you don't have to do that much but you can still have balls to gamble and yeah That must be but an Australian should have it that completely meant well sort of you guys got forced there Look, they should move everybody over there because they were criminals, right? This is DDR gene that you just saw that was a dr4 I'm I know a bit about it because I'm writing it in my next book the dr d4. Thanks, Jamie I call this the F Eugene because I'm trying to figure out what makes humans special over other animals Mmm, and this is one of them that we are seekers of Explorers and it's it turns out turns out that this gene is turned on in Teenagers it gets eventually switched off not totally but that might be why teenagers Say F you to their parents, but it's a way genetically to get them out of the nest like I can't stand these parents They suck. They're idiots. I'm out of here. That's in this in this gene Well, it's also I As a parent have been very aware of not doing that to my kids like not forcing them into something that they don't want to do or pushing them in a general direction, but rather encouraging them to seek out their interests and Encouraging them to just like take chance and if I ever correct them if I ever get upset about something One of the first things that I tell them is I've done all everything that you've done. I've made every mistake I've fucked up. I'm you're smarter than me. I've fucked up everything. I've lied to my parents. I lied the teachers I've done everything that you're doing. So it's this is not a unique thing. I'm just telling you from my own Personal experience in my perspective. This is why I think because I love you and I want you to do well in life And I just want you to recognize this and that's how I correct my kids. I love that It's never like you listen to me because I'm your father. There's none of that. Yeah. Yeah I don't the only way we were raised it doesn't work. No, and it makes you resentment, but also Probably makes you want to do better than your parents So like motivates you in a certain way like my parents were not risk-takers at all and my whole life I've been like a wild risk-taker. That's really same. Yeah, I was resentful that my father didn't have enough ambition Now he's a great guy. We're best friends. Actually, it's been the greatest thing for me But one of the things I did with my kids you reminded me is he's 19 He's a well-built guy because we were going to the gym for a number of years I've tried to train him in health, but he spent the summer with me He's literally still working for me this summer to help with the podcast and the magazine. We're about to launch and Benjamin's his name. He's the best kid, but he slacked off He was like Ben I put you in charge of social media. You haven't posted in a week. What's going on? Well, you know I slept in but so I do think am I gonna get mad at him? Like I would a normal employee or do I treat him differently and I decided to treat him differently Probably because he's my son, but I didn't want to rule the relationship. But what I did was I said You know, I really Think you can do better. I think everything you've done the weightlifting the calculus You're amazing But in this you're not so what's going on and it worked we become closer. He's really into it He's doing a good job. That's great. So that's the way to do it. I think you can't be too hard on them Right say you fucked up. Yeah, I mean that kind of can work but it's a blunt instrument and it doesn't work on everybody and it also develops resentment and and they also they they miss out on Experiencing your perspective as a like for them to understand that you are just a person who's lived longer than them and That you can help them navigate this road. Yeah, so you don't have to make the same same mistake. Yes That's why you're helping them. You're talking to them about this not because You're just a mean dad who likes to fucking tell the kids what to do because we've all experienced that I mean I had friends growing up was fathers of fucking scream at them and throw things and beat them and it's like God and then you just grow up fucking traumatized and always resentful and angry instead of Just recognizing that like oh, I'm so fortunate that my parents have this perspective where they can explain to me Why I'm going through what I'm going through and how they got through it like a mentor. You're not the best friend You're their mentor. Yes, best friend doesn't work either. No, that doesn't work either because that just allows too much shenanigans You know, you have to have some rules, you know, you have to have some some sort of regulations Yeah, but you also kids turned out. Well, what's that? How'd you kids tell the great great? I'm so so lucky so fucking lucky I mean, I feel so fortunate. They're so smart and ambitious and driven and so it's wild it's wild to watch, you know and talented and it's um, and Also, like we never went through that period where they hit teenage years and they hate you like that God, that's so nice. I mean my youngest you get upset at me sometimes about certain things, but she bounces back quickly It's never like some kids where they just grow to hate their parents by rd4 gene Maybe they don't have strong one. I don't know about that. I think it's how you Communicate with them. I really do. I think that's a big factor You have to communicate with them like you truly care about their development and the most important thing I think the most important thing I think is that I always tell them whatever you've done Whatever mistake you've made I made way worse mistakes. I was like, I am NOT coming at you from a flawless person You know, I'm not coming at you from the perspective of someone who like you're an idiot I figured that out. You should figure it out. Like no, I Whenever that went from the time they were really little anytime. I had to correct them I said I did everything that you're doing everything. I Threw my food on the floor too. Yes all the above whatever fucking stupid thing You've done as a kid. I guarantee you that is great advice really great advice So I hope everyone listening hears that because I actually had to learn the hard way my first kid I did what my parents did which was you can't say that Yeah, and my first is a lot more rebellious and distant than my third Interesting. Yeah, it actually is really true. I've seen it Yeah, and it's I thought I was gonna kill their motivation, but it doesn't at all I thought like, you know making things easy for them and not being strict Like maybe it's good to be strict because then you just have this determination to show everybody I don't think that was my thing as a child like I'll fucking show you but I don't think everybody needs that I think you're much better off having a healthy Relationship with ambition where you're excited about things because you're passionate about them and you you find great reward in being creative or being Enthusiastic about something exactly and open their eyes to the world that exists. Yes We used to do work experience you go and do a job and that's your work experience The reason I wanted my son been to work with me is he can see how what it's like to be an entrepreneur Right build something and be excited and work is super fun. Yeah, I Think a lot of kids just don't get that experience. I don't know what's possible, right? I'm just showing them the world is what we can do as parents. That's awesome. Yeah, and you know, I mean Some people don't have that at home, unfortunately but that's one of the cool things about the world that we live in is that kids today have Access to so many different perspectives now because of the internet There's so many different podcasts and YouTube conversations and different things where they can just take a little tool from that Just take a little piece from that and apply it to the way they interact with the world Yeah For sure, and I would encourage parents to give their kids stuff to read We talked about social media how that's just addictive. I saw how my kids Wanted to just scroll through their phones then then read and if they can't read a book give them a magazine I subscribe To net net Nat Geo National Geographic for my kids and I think get them used to reading It's gonna be a lost art if we don't I know isn't that nuts? I Maybe read 10% of the things that I consume. I consume so much in audio Just for time reasons because there's so much there's so much time where I'm driving my car or I'm working out or I'm in The sauna or I'm in the hyperbaric chamber or I'm in the red light therapy. That's reading three years. It is Similar, but I think it's only like 70% of reading. I don't think it's 100% I don't think you get the full effect, but it's still way better than not doing it Yeah, you know, but I'm aware that like sitting there Concentrating actually reading a book without hearing another person's voice talking. There's another mechanism. There's another thing that's going on That's uh, it's a different way you interact with the material whether it's nonfiction or fiction Yeah, I like the fact that I can listen to you and I'm doing something else I have to sit down can move go for a walk. Yeah, that's for me. It's it's just I'm I have too many interests I have way too many things that I do and so it's very hard for me to just Allocate a certain amount of time to sit there in silence and read. Yeah, I use reading to fall asleep That's a good way. It does do that, right? That's kind of nuts how well it does that? Yeah, although I am finding it's harder to read now that my eyes aren't young Need some of my I do red light there. So I've tried that does it work for you? Oh, yeah Oh, I mean people are skeptical about this and they think I'm full of shit No, I don't need reading glasses anymore. Really? Yes. I have reading. I always have these fucking things laying around I don't even use them anymore. That's awesome. Yeah, a lot of science now for red light. It's real I can tell you as a regular user for multiple years It took a while It took like I was waiting for in the beginning like what the fuck in the back and not only that in the beginning Because I don't close my eyes in the red light bed. I thought it was making things blurrier I was like, oh my god. Am I fucking up my eyesight like listening to these assholes? But no Just took a while and then over the course of like many months I started seeing some small improvements and then I started seeing some pretty big improvements over the course of about a year Whereas now I it's not my eyes aren't perfect They aren't like they were when I was 20 But they are way better than they were when I was 50 how often did you have to do that? I do it three times a week minimum. That's what I try to do But sometimes I'll do it five days a week. Well, I just get in there and it's 20 minutes I lay in a light bed close my eyes open my eyes, whatever. It seems to work on your vision Even if you wear a blindfold, what about people that can't afford a bed? Can you get little? Yes, you can get well There's a company called it's called juve right J Uuv, is that the name of the company? They were our sponsor at one point in time. That's how I started it They had it's just a light panel that you stand in front. Oh, yeah Yeah, and that that works to that but this one the one that I got a red and near infrared light therapy devices juve J OOVV medical grade light therapy devices. I had one of those and that's when I started seeing benefits, but the The big one that I got I got from Gary Brekker from his company And it's it's a like a fucking tanning bed and you lie in it and that one's amazing, but that's expensive but I don't think you have to have that for that those kind of improvements also improves collagen your skin makes you look better and The but for me the most obvious and profound was the improvement in my vision Well, it makes sense the the science behind red light wasn't there ten years ago and people were questioning it But now we know if you shine certain wavelengths like near infrared on cells The mitochondria which are important for reversing aging or slowing it get revved up It's actually related to Viagra long story But Viagra and red light have something is in common and it does help mitochondria and that's very important for the eye the mitochondria actually the most important in any part of your body the eye is the most important part and Part of the reason we lose our vision is the mitochondria don't make enough energy How come you haven't done red light therapy before then? Well, I do but not Routinely, so I have one of those bricks that I turn on while I'm in the shower And I have a red light cap for my hair, which there's some evidence What I do is I yeah, it does it looks a little bit silly It's I don't wear it in public But I do lower it and I look at it and it shines in my eyes and on my face In the hopes that it might help. Yeah, they have one that you wear like dr Doom what fits over your face and like blast red light and your whole face. I definitely Feel a bit weird afterwards and I can see speckles, but I think the science says that it can help Well, all I know is my own anecdotal experience and for me it has radically improved my vision That's a good tip. Yeah, it stopped. Well, it was my vision was degrading Like it was it was pretty odd Like I first started using like reading glasses like a 1x like it made it a little better I'm like others a little better makes it clearer and then I went to two and then I was using 2.5 and it made it better, but it was like god this is annoying and then if I would try to like read an email and It I didn't have my reading glasses. I couldn't read shit now Crystal clear. Yeah, no problem at all Well, so my latest show is about the eye and how to protect the eyes health And so there's a lot you can do actually supplements Red light other things. I take supplements for it, too. I should mention that I take No, I have no affiliation with these people pure encapsulations makes a supplement called macular support And I take that and it's a combination of lutein and a few other things. Yeah, there was a trial a while ago that showed that taking Xanthine and others as to xanthine lutein lutein. They're good for the eye so you can get products like that Do you take it not that brand? But yes, I take something similar and has it helped you at all. I Don't know. I haven't done an experiment, right? Well, if you weren't taking it, maybe you would have more degeneration Yeah, well, you know, I've got near-perfect vision. I don't need glasses. Do you really? Yeah, near perfect near perfect. I mean, I think low-light low-light is with me Yeah, where I'll go to a restaurant with my kids and they can read the menu and I'm like that is so Embarrassing you can read that. How do you read that? I can't read shit. Like, you know, why why well, this is this what I think so we know from my lab's work that the retina because it has Tens of thousands of endings that pick up the light as you get older Those nerves lose their identity and they're not working as well. And what we do is with our therapy We can restore those nerves back to being Functional nerves and that's why mice and monkeys that lose their retinal function Get their perfect vision back again. Mmm. We're reminding those cells that have forgotten how to work So in your eye in my eye, we're 22 months apart that those nerves about half of them have forgotten how to work properly So we want to fix that and go back to being young. It's not that our nerves are gone They're not dead right there and we can restore them and that's gonna be true for a lot of organs Is that the cells are still there? They just need to be reminded how to work again. What are the potential negative? Consequences of this kind of work like when you when you sit up at night and you worry I hope it doesn't do this. Is it cancer? Is that the big one? Yeah, it's Though we've done a lot of work to allay real fears It is possible that if we go too young We can cause dysplasia Which is cells doing think what they shouldn't or if they multiply and spread that would be if you make the cells too young Like what I was saying before about don't turn me into a baby, right? We don't want to go there That's what Yamanaka did and got the Nobel for it, but that's not good here But we never see ourselves turn into stem cells again we can't we we had mice that we left it left the gene therapy on for 21 months in the eye and 19 months in the whole body of the animal and if anything they had less tumors Than the ones that didn't get treated and we actually know from a wonderful student in my lab Nalat she's a PhD student. She found that when you turn on these three same genes Not in the eye, but in cancer cells and tumors growing in mice human cancer is growing in mice. They shrink So we think it might actually help for cancer as well, which was a nice surprise Wow That's incredible make sense right if you wake up a cancer cell and it says Crap, I shouldn't be growing. I should be a You know a liver cell or something similar Now it kills itself. So we see that the cells wake up. They realize what they were 30 years ago, and then they kill themselves Mmm, what what is on the horizon in terms of like what would you like to accomplish? Or would you like to work on that? You can't do currently? Well lots lots, you know funding in my lab got completely cut last year And we've managed to survive through donations We had the funding get cut. Was it a USAID thing? You remember there was a spat between Harvard and the federal government All of the funding to have medical school got cut was that during the time where the president was Defending those anti-semitic comments on campuses Yeah, well allegedly I'm not getting into the politics No need to get into politics, but during that whole thing. Yeah. Yeah So what what we we I almost had to fire most of the people in my lab during that episode. It was quite Scary, but I got raised don't know. So now my lab survives on donations not on federal government money Thank you friends. Thank you. Thank you Well, the thing is you've accomplished enough to where people like I think he's awesome Well, I'm lucky most scientists can't raise money like that So really really it's a blessing and now I'm raising money through a foundation to help other scientists survive But yeah, it's it's been a blessing. But your question was what do I wish I could do? Yeah, I wish I could go faster I wish I could try multiple Approaches so we don't just have one shot on goal It's going slower than I would want with a big injection of cash It's going slower than I would want with a big injection of cash We could do a lot of trials a lot of different tissues. We could do a whole body reent Rejuvenation as well. Do you have a website where people can donate? Um, I do it's lifespan.com So if you go to lifespan.com There's a link there. Yeah, you could donate foundation and we're raising money for this type of research. Is it tax deductible? Uh depends on how big the donation is For ten dollars you get the new magazine that we're putting out And you learn all about how to live longer building I'm hoping to build the world's largest longevity community of millions of people who can learn How to really live longer and build health care from the ground up because top down from the government hasn't worked Yeah, actually I have a gift for you Well, yeah, I made something for you. That's unique Oh This is for you joe as a thanks to all the support you've given me and the science over the years first edition Lifespan magazine ladies and gentlemen, look at that. It's written by scientists. So it's cover. It's like a velvet cover What is this? I figured you might like that inside is the magazine. What is this material? It's beautiful Velour velour, of course at great expense. No, the magazine doesn't come with velour. That's just special for joe As a thank you present. Thank you very much. Most most science out there is written by reporters who don't know what they're talking about And so we want we wrote this for the public and you can believe whatever you read in there. 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You can subscribe get that every month just for 10 bucks I like the take at the bottom life's too short. Let's fix that. That's our slogan that life's great slogan Yeah, that's an awesome slogan. Uh, so it's it's a it's a community It's the show my show is also called lifespan on youtube, but the magazine is a passion project I want to put out something that people Love it's beautiful, right? It's like national geographic by the way Just today This is no kid. No joke. It seems crazy But my lab's research is on the cover of national geographic. Oh, that's awesome. That just came out today They they heard by the way at nat geo they said You're going on joe rogan. I went. Yeah, he goes. All right, we'll put it out early so you can now read about My lab's research on nat geo as well today. That's very cool. That's very cool. So you would just like to do More have more funding do more that that's the thing that you wish you could be working on now just having more different more different Studies and tests running concurrently We could go so fast with ai because it's spitting out new drug candidates all the time that we can't test It takes years to get through So with money we could do a lot more trials and put these through different diseases much faster If you had no regulations like an island of dr. Moreau type deal. Yeah, well, you know well at the risk of getting kicked out of my university, um Theoretically we could Very safely do more animal studies and with those best candidates put them into humans quicker Right now it takes years it's taken us close to 10 years to go from the first discovery in my lab In nature magazine to now but that's too slow. There's people dying 150 000 a day on this planet. It's terrible so I would love to have the resources, you know, like Jeff bezos and others. Yeah, my company by the way, even though we lead the pack of all these guys Um, we're really small. We're pretty small little outfit in uh in boston Uh, we've raised a lot less money, but we're because I think we're focused we have And we started earlier. We're doing pretty well. That's the big one. You started earlier. You have a lot of momentum on your side Yeah, but we I think we we could Have a big impact on aging in our lifetime with More money directed in general at the field not just me But spread it and so the money that we raise from the magazine is going to support other labs as well Um and students who can find these medicines quicker So if you in a perfect world and you had unlimited resources You would just run a bunch of different clinical trials and stuff studies concurrently. Yeah, AI is feeding us molecules. We put them into mice, we go to monkeys, we go to humans, and it would just be fast. One of my friends, Alex Zakharonkov, he has a similar company, but not on exactly what we do, not on reprogramming. But he's able, I think he's on his 35th drug, but he's driven by AI and robots. His whole lab is robots, at least he says they are. And then he goes into humans. And his company's worth billions. That approach applied to what we do would be incredible. That's best case scenario. That would be incredible. Well, I'm hoping through this conversation that people are gonna reach out. And I'm hoping through this conversation that people are realizing like, oh, well, so much work has been done and so many breakthroughs have been made if they had more access to resources, more access to different, whatever you need. And that you could run all these different studies. We could. Our budget in my lab is only, it's almost three and a bit million. It's not much compared to what impact it could have on the planet, which is trillions of dollars saved just in the US alone. So it's a little bit of donation or getting a magazine. The impact would be life-changing for all of us. Who doesn't age? Who doesn't get diseases? Right. And who doesn't wanna feel better? It's also like so much, you can get so much more done if you feel better. Well, we take it for granted until we feel sick and then it's like, oh, I forgot what it's like to feel well. Exactly, exactly. I had a day a week and a half ago where I came back from Italy. I was a little jet lagged. I didn't sleep right. And I worked out really hard a bunch of days in a row and I was working constantly. And then I had one day I was like, I kinda feel like shit. I better not do anything today. And after I was on work, I just watched TV and relaxed. And I was like, I can't wait to feel better again. Well, imagine what it's like being old. Yes. And frail. That's every day. Yes, or sick. And right now you can't do anything about it. Yes, yeah. And while you're healthy, you take it for granted. And that's the real sin. Like you're like, ah, I'm fine, I'm great. I mean, this is what people do when they go out drinking, right? They take advantage of the fact that it's worth it for a good time just poison myself for a night. Well, it's not worth it because that also accelerates aging. But big time, right? This is what I tell my kids who like alcohol, like most kids. You might feel better in a few days, but the memory of that is gonna be in your body. Yeah. You can drink. It's fine to get drunk once in a while, but not a lot, not constantly. I used to drink once a day and I do not do that anymore because the data's incontrovertible that it affects the brain, even the size of the brain, if you drink constantly, consistently. I took eight months off of no alcohol at all and I felt a lot better. Exactly. I started drinking again one night. I went to dinner with my wife and had a margarita. I was like, ooh, I think I'm back. Ah, really? Well, I'm a lot less funny now. I do not get drunk. I haven't gotten drunk. This was over a year ago. It was when I had a drink again, I think. I think it was a year, I'm not sure. Point is, I have not been drunk since then. I will have a glass of wine with dinner or I will have a shot of whiskey before I go on stage, a little bit, but I do not get drunk anymore. It's just not worth it to me. The feeling afterwards is so terrible. The morning, and especially for me because I work out so much, when I wake up, it's like, that workout's gonna get done. Whether I feel like shit or not, that workout's gonna get done and this is gonna be rough. And then you got the sweats. It's horrible. Versus when I feel great, I love the workout. I'm excited. I look forward to it. Even when it's hard, when it's over, I'm like, whew, all right, let's eat. And I don't feel bad. I feel good. And it's like, why am I giving up that for a few hours of, ah, you know? It's just not worth it. It's not worth it. Yeah, well, you're funny even without alcohol, but I'm not, so I've lost a lot of my humor, but there's nothing better than feeling great, right? And if you can make it your hobby of working on your health and your longevity, you'll enjoy it. It shouldn't be a chore. It'll also directly affect the other things that you love because you will have more energy. Your life energy, your vitality is so important for anything you're doing, whether it's a creative thing or an intellectual thing, like anything that you're doing, if you have more energy, you'll be able to apply more energy to that thing. It's that simple. You're building a bigger gas tank for yourself. You're building a larger engine, and that's what you're doing. Exactly, mentally, physically, you can do so much when you feel good. You jump out of bed. If you wake up and you're tired, woozy, you know, your eyes are puffy, that's not how it should be when you wake up. If you're getting, and sleep is important for longevity, of course, if you're getting good deep sleep, then you should wake up and you feel great. Yes, yes. You don't even necessarily need a cup of coffee, but it's not bad if you have one. I like coffee. I'm not gonna stop drinking it. No, me neither. I don't give a fuck what anybody says. Right, it's good. And there's also conflicting information. Some people say it's good for you, there's benefits. It's good for you, come on. That's what I say. No, it really is. Anyone that says it's not doesn't read the literature. Well, I would imagine an overabundance of caffeine is not good. Too much is not good. But that's true for everything. Too much salt will kill you. Yeah, exactly. A pound of salt, you'd be dead in an hour. Right, and you can get away with very little sleep, actually, as long as it's deep sleep. Because what it's doing is clearing out the misfolded proteins in your brain and the toxins. We know this, the glymphatic system. And if you get deep sleep for an hour, you're actually gonna wake up much cleaner, healthier. And what I've been able to do with some work is figure out how to get deep sleep every night, efficiency on these rings that say above 90 sometimes. I like you say rings, because you're wearing two Aura rings. Or one Aura. Different companies. Okay, why do you wear two different rings? Because when I've got two, neither of them is correct. No, the truth is, some of them are really good for sleep, the others are good for heart. And so this one's my heart and this is my sleep. What is the difference in the companies, which one's which? You don't mind me saying who they are? No, I don't care. This is an Aura, the fat one, and then the thinner one is called Ultra Human. Ultra Human? Yeah. And which one is good for what? Well, I find Aura really good for sleep. That's their specialty. And then the heart for Ultra Human, my cardiac age. Oh, okay. So it's just like giving you data all the time? Yeah, and they're getting even better, because they, I don't get paid by these companies, but I do like that they pop up with AI information now. Have you noticed that da-da-da, or I noticed that you ate a meal last night that spiked your glucose? And this one, I'm monitoring right now so I can see what's going on anyway. But yeah, they're becoming like a- You are fucking monitored, bro. I am. Two rings and a patch? It's a hobby. It's a hobby, but you learn a lot. And I put one of these on my son and he stopped eating bad food for a long while. Really? Because he was just recognizing the impact that it had on his body. Yeah, it's good for kids. Now, I wouldn't say slap it on a kid without pediatrician recommendation, but it was amazing what happened when he could see the crap that was going in his mouth was doing to his blood sugar. Really? It was amazing. I think it's a great learning tool, if nothing else. Right, just to have actual data. I know a lot of people, it's changed their opinion on alcohol, particularly the Aura ring when they look at their sleep. Because even just a couple of drinks before you go to bed, like a couple of drinks at dinner, and then you realize, oh God, my sleep was all fucked up because of those drinks. Yeah, lay off the modafinil too, for me anyway. Yeah, some modafinil fucks with your sleep as well? Yeah, I have to work really hard to sleep well. There's quiet time, there's relaxation, the lights are dimmed. I think about a happy place rather than work. I had to do that because for 50 years I was burning the candle at all ends. I was really burnt out, and so I've fixed that now. I don't worry. So, are you one of those guys that dims the lights in your house a couple hours before you go to bed? I try, yeah. And stay off your phone? Yeah. All that stuff, yeah. Well, I don't stay off my phone as much as I want to, but yes. Do you wear red light glasses or anything? Like blockers? I used to, I haven't found a big difference for myself. But interesting fact that isn't well known, if you block blue light during the day, or just stay indoors, there's a guy in Japan who says that what happens is you get short-sightedness. Really? Because the mice that lack the ability to sense violet light get myopia, short-sighted. And he's got a device that indoors you can shine this. But our modern world, the LEDs, and being indoors means we barely get violet light, and that would be so interesting if that's what's causing us to have to wear glasses. Wow. And he claims that people that live out in the countryside that see blue light all the time because they go out don't have as much need for glasses. That actually makes sense. Well, particularly artificial light, and then also light that's from a close source. Like one of the things that if I do, if I'm tired and I lay in bed and I try to read something online on my phone, it hurts my eyes. The room's dark, it irritates my eyes. Well, it never irritates my eyes normally, but it's like at the end of the day, I guess I'm more fatigued and so that I'm- And you're trying to focus on the screen. Yeah, so now think about that when people are doing it all day long. Maybe you're doing it at work where you have to stare at a computer monitor from three feet away or closer, and then you're looking at your phone all the time or you're working from a tablet or you're watching television. It's like you're constantly staring at these light sources that are artificial. Yeah, and also keep in mind that the muscles have to focus. You don't naturally look this far. You naturally, you relax, you see out there. To look here, your muscles here have to be straining for hours and they get very tired. And I guess eventually they age to a point where you cannot keep it up. And sometimes I do this to see better though. Well, it all makes sense if you think about it, particularly like if your eyes are accustomed to only focusing on things that are close. I mean, that was what they would say about reading when people would have glasses. Fucked up your vision reading, which I used to think was nonsense, but I'm like, well, kind of makes sense if you spend all day long focusing, even though it's on a screen, you're spending all day long focusing on a book that's only a foot from your face. It does make sense. And the lens gets really inflexible. And I'm seeing this with my father. He's otherwise in perfect health at 87, which is amazing, but it's his eyes that are failing him. Maybe you should get him a red light bed. That's a great idea. I'm gonna do that. He's arriving tonight actually from Sydney. He's gonna get him a red light bed, man, because I'm telling you, there's not a thing that I've done that's impacted me in a more obvious way than that, in terms of like something that's hugely important. I'm gonna do it. And I mean, he's into science. He's been taking NMN, resveratrol, metformin, exercising. He goes to the gym two or three times a week. Well, that's great. He's a role model at 87 with no diseases, no aches or pains. That's awesome. And he's traveling the world. He was in Japan two weeks ago. Wow. Coming to Boston. That's so cool. I love hearing about people that are older that just keep on top of it and stay active and stay alive and enjoy life. Yeah, exactly. He's a great role model. And what it shows is he was an average guy till he was in his 60s. And he figured he was gonna die in his 70s probably, because everyone in my family dies young because we've got pretty bad genes. But he's just taken life by the horns and just is running with it and has not physically aged except for his eyes in the last 20 years. That's incredible. And that's not an exaggeration. Anyone who's seen him knows he walks, he moves, he travels, he does everything like he was when he was 40. That's where things like resistance exercises are so important, because it maintains bone density, maintains muscle mass, maintains your ability to just get around and do things. That's the other reason to do that. You're gonna be really strong when you're older and you won't fall. And if you do fall, you'll bounce. You won't break a bone. And he's like that. He's been working out at the gym, mostly strength training, but balance as well. It's very important to maintain balance. He's better at the gym than me at 87. That's incredible. That just shows how weak I am. That's a little humiliating. Yeah, I gotta go to the gym. How about next time, if you have me on? You're gonna be buff. Deal. We'll get you a trainer. You're in Massachusetts. There's a ton of trainers out there. Great. It's a deal. We'll find you someone. We'll find you someone. Three days a week. That's all you need. The other days, you could do stuff elective. Do stuff that you want. But three days a week, get a personal trainer and work out with them. You're on. All right. I will let you know when it's going or you help me. I can hear, though, that there's probably a few million people right now screaming, David, just go to the lab. Forget about the gym. You need to make more discoveries. Well, it'll help your lab work. It'll help everything. It'll help the amount of research you're able to do. You'll have more energy. You'll be more excited about things. I'm sure you've seen those MRI cross-sections of people's tissue where they take a 70-year-old man who's sedentary versus a 70-year-old man who's a marathon runner. It's fucking extraordinary. I've seen my own. There's too much fat in the muscle. Gotta get rid of it. Yeah, yeah. It's really extraordinary when you see those images. Those really bring it home. And the bone changes. The bone turns to fat, too. Parts of the bone. So you gotta have the strength training, for sure. Keep your bone strong. Yeah, 100%. Strength training, that's mandatory. Yeah, and then do you do a lot of aerobic exercises? Yes, yeah. I saw the training bike. Oh, yeah, well, you saw my hypoxia machine that I just got installed today. Yeah, the hypoxia thing, what it does is it replicates 14,000 feet above sea level. And you train in it. And it also has a heat element, so you could ramp the heat up to 115 degrees. So 115 degrees and. 14,000 feet above sea level. What's that? Machu Picchu kind of stuff? Yeah. You're going to hell. That's what it is. You're going straight to hell. It'll feel like it. But it should work, right? Yes. Hypoxia is great for muscle. Yes. And for adaptation. That's the big thing. And my friend, Roman, who installed it, who's one of the guys from the company, they're very specific with this protocol in terms of monitoring your heart rate, when to do it, when to push, how much time to spend, and how you do it. It's very scientific in terms of the application on athletes. My friend, Adam Greentree, turned me on to it, a fellow Australian, and he's a big hunter and does a lot of mountain hunting, and he said there's nothing he's ever done that's had more of an impact on his cardio. He said it's been phenomenal. Sounds wonderful, actually. There's a lot of science behind that. You probably know it. The best results are when people are either having too much oxygen or not enough. And you might say, well, that's weird. Why does it matter? Well, you've got to get out of your comfort zone, hormesis, we keep talking about. And there's a big study in Israel where they put people in these hyperbaric chambers. I've done that protocol. Yeah. Yeah. 60 sessions of 90 minutes over 90 days. Yeah. Yeah. I have one at my house. You do? Yeah. And the data's incontrovertible. Better wound healing, better memory. Increase in telomere length. Yeah. I saw that one. That's the Israel study. Yes. What I thought was interesting was when I went over there myself and sat in that thing, they made a joke over there in Israel, by the way. They said, this gas chamber here that you're going into, made by Germans. I thought, that's not a funny joke. Don't say that again. Anyway, I probably shouldn't have shared that. I did go into the chamber. And what I found out was that they believe what I believe, which is it's not so much the high pressure that's good for you. It's the coming down that mimics hypoxia, which your room will mimic. So the lack of oxygen or the perceived lack of oxygen from a high state is the benefit. Interesting. And that makes a lot of sense. You're going to grow new blood vessels, just like Viagra is going to open things up. We actually had a paper in 2012 that found that one of the supplements that I take, which everyone knows about, NMN, could allow animals to grow new blood vessels by getting rid of a protein that accumulates with aging. The bottom line is we could mimic this lack of blood vessels with this pill, but by exercising, it's the same. I really believe, which is barely talked about in the medical establishment, is that a major reason we get sick when we get older is lack of blood flow. It's really talked about, right? Vascular dementia, second largest cause of dementia in the world, blood flow. And it's the easiest to reverse. You just do exercise or take one of these PDE5 inhibitors, Viagra, or you take my stuff, which is NMN, which we think also works. Or all the above, which is probably the best approach. I'm two out of three. Hopefully soon three out of three. But yeah, to protect your brain, which is the most important, because you don't want to be old and demented. That's worse than anything. Keep the blood flowing in your body. Remember that. Blood flowing is important. Yes. Couldn't agree more. David, you're a treasure. I really appreciate you. Thanks for being here. You've been so kind, and thank you for getting the word out here about the great science that's going on. My pleasure, dude. I'm so happy there's someone like you out there doing this. It's such an enormous benefit to people that are listening to the world, and you're literally doing God's work. And we'll try to do more. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much. Lifespan.com is the website. Is it? Thank you. Yes. Please, folks, if you're so inclined, go donate. It'll really help. It'll change the world. David. Love you. Love you, too. Thank you.