Perfectionism and Loneliness Are the Same Problem | Gordon Flett

Key Takeaway

Combat perfectionism by developing mattering—the felt sense that you are significant to others. When you feel like you matter, you're less likely to engage in toxic social comparison and self-criticism. Start by recognizing that the people posting "perfect" lives online are often hurting too. Instead of chasing impossible standards, focus on meaningful relationships where you feel valued and seen. Practice self-compassion by talking to yourself the way you'd talk to your best friend.

Episode Overview

Clinical psychologist Gordon Flett discusses his decades of research on perfectionism and introduces "mattering" as a powerful antidote. He explains how perfectionism undermines performance, damages health, and destroys relationships through toxic social comparison and chronic self-criticism. The conversation explores practical strategies for developing self-compassion and the concept of mattering—feeling significant to others—as a path toward healthier striving and genuine fulfillment.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Perfectionism and Loneliness Are the Same Problem | Gordon Flett from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Hey, welcome to the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Today we're talking about perfectionism, toxic social comparison, self-doubt, burnout, insecurity. If any of these things sound familiar to you, we're going to talk about a really fascinating and helpful antidote, and that is mattering. My guest will describe what mattering is and how you can develop it. There are lots of practical strategies. Said guest is Gordon Flett, a retired professor in the Department of Psychology at York University in Toronto in Canada. Gordon Flett on mattering coming up after this quick break.

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Money is on the line. Always say hello with Qualtrics. Try Qualtrics for free plus 20% off your first 6 months when you go to qualtrics.com/happier. That's q u o.com/happier. Gordon Flett, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Dan. We're going to talk about mattering, but I'd I'd like to start with your what I understand to be your initial scholarly interest, which is perfectionism. And And And I'd be curious to hear like how did you get interested in perfectionism? Right. Well, my situation with that was largely driven by my colleague who started at the university the exact same time I did.

Uh Paul Hewitt from University of British Columbia. And uh we just started talking about collaborating, and we've been now working on this heading towards almost, I guess, over 40 years. And uh you know, I was interested in this as well seeing its debilitating impact on the students that I was encountering. I spent some time at the university as the undergraduate director where I would be seeing students who were struggling. And so many of them it came down to being very bright, very capable students, but debilitated by perfectionism and the self-criticism that comes along with it.

So, there's that. There's also some family connections in terms of members of our family who are perfectionistic. I am not. People assume if you study something you must be somebody who has that attribute, but but I'm surrounded by people who do have that tendency. You mentioned the devastating impact of perfectionism not on you, but on the students that you were working with as a professor. A lot of people think of perfectionism as a good thing. A great way to get ahead, but clearly your work has shown that it's not.

So, why are people wrong when they have a positive view of perfectionism? People have this very positive glow and people say, "Well, you know, what's your biggest fault for a job interview?" I'm a perfectionist, which for me would be a red flag when students came and said, "You know, I want to work with you. I'm a perfectionist." I'm going, "Do you think that's a good thing to tell me because we know that it's associated with a lot of self-doubt and concerns about how you're being seen by others." And in the case of productivity, which is the belief, you know, "If I'm a perfectionist, I'll I'll do better and I'll produce more." We actually showed with a study of Canadian professors that perfectionism undermined performance and had lower quality work.

So, there's a there's a key dividing line between conscientiousness and healthy striving versus going too far. And unfortunately, it tends to play on people's minds when they're needing to be absolutely perfect because we can all remember those times when we weren't, we made a mistake, and perfectionists tend to ruminate a lot about it and go over and over it. So, they can keep the stress fresh for them, and the bottom line I would suggest to anybody who thinks perfectionism is a good thing is that it is associated with health problems.

And one study that was done, it was shown to predict early mortality over a 7-year period after controlling for some of the other big-ticket factors we know that are good or bad for our health. So, what we say is that anything that's so involved with stress, and perfectionists generate a lot of stress, so it becomes very debilitating not only in terms of mental health, but also physical health. You drew a line between perfectionism and conscientiousness or healthy striving. What what's the difference and how do we know when we're on the right or wrong side of that line?

The biggest difference I think is in terms of the satisfaction. People who are healthy strivers or striving for excellence derive some satisfaction and know when enough is enough, but the extreme perfectionist can always find a way to push it to never ever getting that sense of satisfaction. And uh the example of this I point to in terms of famous people, a fellow who invented the chronometer to tell longitude, Harrison, who actually we believe is in my wife's family tree, um worked for almost 50 years on the device that we ended up having to tell longitude, the chronometer, but seemed to get no satisfaction from it and even when the British government said that it was enough in terms of meeting the requirements that they were looking for uh for this device, he still felt he had to work on it another 15 years.

So, not only is there a tendency to not have much satisfaction that goes along with that stress, there's also a rigidity in terms of, you know, needing to be perfect even when you don't really need to be perfect any longer. Um so, it's it's a sort of thing that ends up leaving people awash in stress. stress. stress. Another historical example that um I saw cited in in some of the articles I was reading about you in preparation for this conversation is Brian Wilson, the Yes. Yes.

Yes. creative force behind the Beach Boys who enjoyed an enormous amount of success, but he didn't actually enjoy the success because he was so busy comparing himself to the Beatles. Yes, he he said that he felt so small, he felt as small as the dot over the letter I trying to keep up with the Beatles and I actually got that book, his biogra- autobiography from a for a dollar in a at a bookstore out of a guy's garage in Vermont when we were down visiting in the US and I just said I was I meant to find this book because, you know, the hyper competitiveness that was there meant that I think it contributed to Brian Wilson's own mental health problems and and subsequent addiction problems.

Because those were the days when the Beatles were putting out four or five classic albums sometimes in one year and he was trying to keep up keep up with that as opposed to artists that come out with something once every two, three, four years these days and uh just impossible once you start with that game of comparing and this is a problem with people who feel like they don't matter but also perfectionists is that there's a chronic social comparison orientation and you can always if you look hard enough find somebody who seems to be doing better than you and then feeling like a failure even though you're incredibly successful.

successful. successful. It's interesting. I see this in myself. I think a lot about a quote that um that heard from this uh young woman who uh has a very successful Substack that I read. Her name is Emily Sundberg and she's got a Substack uh called Feed Me if anybody wants to follow it. It's very good. And she writes a lot about business and one of the things that one of her observations is it's very hard to compete with a team that is having more fun than you.

And I sometimes look at myself and the way I operate in business and it's often a death march or a slogging and it isn't as much fun as I really want it to be and I think that's because of some perfectionistic tendencies that are not allowing me to declare when enough is enough so that I can relax, recharge, and have more fun. Yeah, I've seen that in case of people who it's almost like if I'm having fun I must not be working hard enough. I must not be pushing myself hard enough.

I need to to go right to the point of exhaustion and and indeed one of the biggest correlates of perfectionism and and where you have to say at the end of the day is it worth it was extreme burnout is consistently linked with the different dimensions of perfectionism that we've studied over the years. And uh there I point to the example of the guy who created the burnout concept, Freudenberger, who himself pushed himself to the point of absolute exhaustion and burnout to the point where the family is sitting in the car waiting to go on the family vacation and dad can't get out because he's so debilitatingly exhausted that they end up calling off the the vacation.

And in his book, which is very hard to find, he talked extensively about perfectionism and I think it was a lot of projection that that was in there because he was just pushing himself beyond the limit. And and the thing that always gets me and my colleague Paul is how can it be? Everybody says, "No, nobody's perfect." But it's almost like somebody's still trying to be the one. Or at least, if not perfect, being better than somebody else who's out there. And you know, the standards for comparison are such.

I I know on one podcast the you know, famous US Olympic sprinter Michael Johnson is lamenting the fact that people have beaten his time. Even though he's now retired and it's not fair to compare his you know, his past performance to current athletes. current athletes. current athletes. Because you can always see, well, you know, that I'm not the I have to not only be perfect, I have to be the best. Is perfectionism on the rise these days? And if so, why? Yes, it is on the rise.

I know you had a previous guest Tom Curran on and he just had a new paper that came out this past week showing like once again, what they'd found in an earlier work called the meta-analysis showing that when you took our our scales and our scales measure three elements of perfectionism. One is self-oriented perfectionism, asking perfection of demanding it from the self. Other-oriented, demanding it from other people. And then socially prescribed, which is the feeling that others expect you to be perfect. Um so, the flip side of other oriented.

Well, charting scores for students over the years have shown that these levels keep going up and up across 30, 40 years of collecting data with our scale, which is called the the multidimensional perfectionism scale. So, it's pretty clear and you know, what I point to I I've looked at more recently the concept of societally prescribed perfectionism, the idea that we're having cues in society, and some of that is social media, where you can find people who are engaging in crafted lives, who who show only the good side of their seemingly perfect life.

And people say that even when people go, you know, I know that's not true, they still feel badly when they start to compare their their own lives to to those images. And and I think in general, there are certain societies where also it's more expected that you should be absolutely aiming for the top and and never I've had work done with colleagues in China and Japan and and even in Russia, where that's something that's so so sort of expected in society. Um so, I think but the big thing I point to is the perniciousness of social comparison now enabled by having the opportunity to go online and see how other people are doing.

And um I remember when I was in school many many many moons ago, it used to be that you would compare on test scores, but now you can compare on lives. And uh we we've actually started looking at what we call social comparison life rumination, where we do have students who are saying, I can't stop thinking about how other people are doing in life and they're doing better than me. And perfectionists are likely to do this. Also, people who are prone to say, well, I don't matter as much as they do because look at their lives.

They've got their act together. They've got the status that I can only hope to dream of. But in fact, the problem is and what I'd like to tell your listeners is that there are so many people out there who are putting false images out there and I tell students don't compare. There's no way to win that game, especially when you realize that there are people out there who are not being truthful. That they are totally posing how their life is going and then when you find out in some sad examples where we found out that somebody was actually hurting but putting this image out there and nobody knew that the person needed help when they desperately needed it.

But you say don't compare, but that's that seems so much easier said than done. done. done. Yes. Yeah, that's true. It's also uh one another thing that we've been studying is the idea of forced comparison so that people say I don't want to compare, but I keep getting this rubbed in my nose uh wherever I go or you know, it could be the case of a [snorts] sibling being compared to an older sibling by a parent or a teacher. So it's it's not easy to avoid these kinds of uh information bursts that can really hit at your sense of who you are.

So that's where you need to learn how to be able to not internalize it and to judge yourself based on this and you know, there's a reason why perfectionists are very very low in self-compassion, but that's exactly what they need. They need to be able to start to learn how to be kind to themselves instead of pushing themselves and judging themselves and according to impossible standards, but also forgiving themselves if they made a mistake. Uh that's we also study mistake rumination and the tendency for a mistake to haunt someone years afterwards because they just can't get past it and uh they'll they'll wake up dreaming about a mistake as if they're right back in that situation and not realizing that a mistake could happen to anything that happens that may may not be a reflection on the self, but they see it as a reflection on the self because they want also perfectionists like control and they don't want to admit that there are things that could happen that are beyond their control.

As I keep saying, we will get to mattering because that that is the the heart of the matter in terms of the focus of this conversation and as You could have added a two-parter with me or my colleague and uh cuz we could talk all day about perfectionism, too. perfectionism, too. perfectionism, too. It is mattering is such an important as you you argue and your your research shows such an important antidote to to perfectionism, but I since you brought up self-compassion, I think it's worth just taking a beat here.

Um people who've listened to this show for a while and we we I talk about self-compassion all the time. It is one way to think about it is just the ability to relate to yourself the way you would relate to a good friend. We all have this capacity to be great teachers, mentors, parents, friends, etc. The radical and empowering notion at the heart of self-compassion is you can channel that innate capacity that you do have toward yourself. So, maybe just say a little bit more about how one can practice self-compassion specifically as it relates to perfectionism and and toxic comparison.

Just saying in terms of that that it's not just a problem with the perfectionism self lack of self-compassion for students. So, we we've had a recent paper where we showed that young mothers of young children are if they're perfectionistic or exceedingly low in self-compassion. So, they're not giving themselves a break and you know, that really comes back to the idea of I know you've talked about mindfulness and and imagery on on the show. Perfectionism is kind of antithetical to the mindfulness approach because it's they're too busy achieving and doing and not being able to engage in self-reflection that that's not rumination.

One of the things about perfectionists is you know, it just just being able to reward yourself as a form of kindness when you actually do well as opposed to absolutely perfect and giving some positive self thoughts there and pats on the back. Um I've talked to clinicians. I'm not a clinician, but I've studied so much to to relate it to what they do and I've talked to clinicians who have said that perfectionists really resist the concept of self-compassion. It's almost like a self-stigma. It's like, "Oh, if I'm being kind on myself, I'm making an excuse and why do I need to make an excuse?

Because I'm not perfect." And back down the cognitive rabbit hole they go. So what they end up doing often with these very resistant perfectionists is they say to them, "Okay, well, what would you say to your best friend who's doing this? Let's think of your best friend growing up, you know, six or seven. If you saw your friend doing this, what would you say to to that to that young person who's your pal?" And they say, "Well, I wouldn't let them beat themselves up." And then I say, "Well, okay, well, now imagine that you are that person because why would you do that to yourself if you happen to be that that person?" And that then proceeds into a discussion about the relationship that the self has with the self and understanding that at the at the root of it is that we all deserve to get a sense of self-acceptance.

And this is what perfectionists cannot do. They do not have unconditional self-acceptance. So learning that is a vital thing and and really acknowledging, as threatening as it might be, that that nobody is perfect and there's a reason why humans are flawed and anybody has got issues. Um but realizing that other people are much better at hiding some of those issues and perfectionists are one who tend to very much hide behind the front that I know you've discussed in other segments. Well, what's interesting in listening to you right there is relating to yourself the way you would relate to a good friend.

And that that I think for most people will seem doable. But you you then said unconditional self-acceptance. self-acceptance. self-acceptance. That feels like a higher bar at least to me, but maybe I'm wrong. Yeah, it is a much higher bar and of course sometimes it's wrapped around the interactions we've had with parents. I know I've talked to one literary agent about perfectionism and she said that, you know, the maximum in her family, her mother was don't be expecting unconditional positive regard around here because I expect you to perform.

And we we internalize those parental dictates often if we do have somebody like that. So the socially prescribed perfectionism is not just your perception, but it's veridical in terms of what is being demanded. As it is sometimes in workplace situations where, you know, you've got to be spot on and you'll hear immediately if you're not from somebody. Usually the internet will jump up and remind somebody they need to be perfect. So it's not easy. So that's why often when it's really a deep deep uh clinical issue, it's not going to be a simple matter that somebody might need more than one or two sessions if they're willing to go for help, which perfectionists are often not willing to go for help either because you have to be able then to admit that you're not perfect to be able to do that.

But at least being aware of the fact that this is something you shouldn't be doing and and and finding ways to practice techniques so you don't automatically do that. And and I don't mind uh pointing again to the links with the health and saying to somebody if you're driv- driven to do this and beat yourself up because you think it'll pay off, sometimes you'll find out when your health is so much in jeopardy that it didn't pay off. And we we've we've heard from people who said, "Geez, if I'd only known sooner because I didn't have to go down this road." And and then they're facing a you know, a a grim set of circumstances.

Um eventually some some people just have to I think I think it'd be helpful to look at some of the famous celebrities and their challenges and realize that even these people who might seem perfect, they might seem have to have ideal lives have been through a lot and they've had to learn to accept that they have their limitations as well. Every single thing you said there is helpful for our entire um 23-minute acquaintance. 23-minute acquaintance. 23-minute acquaintance. And I do want to press on unconditional self-acceptance.

Is that really something you think a a non-Buddhist monk can achieve? I think so if I think people to get to a sense of unconditional self-acceptance, they're going to need a lot of learning by saying what happens to yourself and to others when you're not able to come up with that. And And that's another part of it as well is that people who are on themselves also tend to be critical of others. And there's a correlation for those who people who are able to develop unconditional self-acceptance, they also tend to be more accepting of other people, which again is something that perfectionists have a very difficult time doing.

But I would just encourage people to just start to try and connect their own dots through a mindfulness practice of saying, you know, we're only on this planet for so long and here's a style that might help me in in the short term, but in the long term the stress is going to end up taking a toll and you know, the the creator of the stress concept Salye, who was a person immigrated to Canada and then developed the concept of stress said that once we have some stress, it invariably knows what part of our bodies to attack where we're most vulnerable.

So, if somebody thinks, well, it's not going to get me, well, eventually it's going to come home to roost for everyone. everyone. everyone. Let me see if I can describe how this has worked for me and you can tell me if it if it sounds right to you as somebody who's really studied this for a long time. I started with basic self-compassion, you know, learning uh to uh to uh to when I can remember to do it in moments of suffering to talk to myself the way I talk to my son, for example.

And I found that very helpful. I found, just as you said, that the more I was easing up on the internal cattle prod, uh in my own mind, the better my relationships were. relationships were. relationships were. And the more accepting and understanding I was in my relationships. And because, and we're going to get to this when we talk about mattering, because relationships are really the most important variable in human flourishing, that's what the data shows over and over and over again, I then started to get even happier and then my relationships improved even more and up by went.

And I often think about something I heard a guest on this on this show once say, which is that wounding happens in relationships, but healing happens in relationships, too. And so, And so, And so, I don't know that I have perpetual unconditional self-acceptance, but I'm much closer to it and and achieve it momentarily, not because purely of internal work, but because my internal work has unlocked so much warmth in my relationships that it has put me occasionally on this upward spiral. So, I said a lot there, but does any of that land with you?

Oh, it all lands with me, especially the importance of relationships. I think that's one thing that might help people to really get past their own tendency to just be hard on themselves and say, "I'm not letting up because you do get into this evaluative mindset that you used to apply to other people." I'm convinced that perfectionists are very evaluative people and they can't help themselves sometimes, but at the end of the day, when people have had serious health issues, they're not thinking about, "Well, why didn't somebody do that?

Or why didn't somebody do this?" They're thinking about, "Hey, why aren't there more people around?" And one of the byproducts that we study of perfectionism is under a model we call the social disconnection model, because perfectionism is a factor that is not widely acknowledged, but it is consistently linked with loneliness and pushing people away. And there's there's a abject stories of isolated people. The person I could point to the most here would be would be would be the Kaczynski, the Unabomber. There he is in his shack and I think it was Montana as a, you know, a failed math professor, extreme perfectionist, and telling society how they that they need to be in his manifesto.

And he was totally isolated from his family, from just about everybody. And you know, at the end of the day I would say to people and they say, "Oh, perfectionism is working for me." I'd say two things. How's your health? And how are your relationships? Because we made our our mark in the field by talking about the interpersonal side of perfectionism and how it costs so many different ways in terms of the the impoverished social network and ending up feeling totally isolated and alienated in some instances.

And to me, you know, as you say, life is about people. At the end of the day, it's really all that matters. And And And this is a tendency that that this is a tendency that that just keeps people away either because you're want to stay isolated cuz you're expecting others to be harsh or not what you want them to be or others have learned to take a wide berth and not engage because they're not wanting to be held up to those same standards. And um you know, I think it's great when you said though that, you know, I think well, how would I talk to my son?

I need to start talking to myself that way. I think most parents could relate to that. They wouldn't want to be hard. There are some parents who are exceedingly perfectionistic that can feel that they they need to push their their kids right to you know, the edge. But but others realize they want that relationship. Um they would, you know, a balance certainly in terms of the focus on achievement versus the having a person who's a nice person who should be somebody that people want to spend time with on the planet.

Maybe to a fault, but I'm not a tiger dad. If we we he he gets as much candy and TV time with his dad that You you don't want to be a tiger dad. The the book about tiger moms, tiger moms, tiger moms, you know, there's the story of the one daughter in the book because I I read anything that I think might smack of something to do with perfectionism. And when you find a story in that book of the young child going out with no clothes into the snow to get away from the mom who's expecting a lot, that is not what any anybody could see as a good good outcome.

And uh uh it's funny I'll just say this bridge a little to mattering is that the concept I have of anti-mattering, which we'll explain, but um I was reading and find found the uh book uh biography about Paul Dirac, who was the person who's the famous Nobel Prize winner who created the concept of antimatter. But he had a horrible father. Um he had a father that saw him as the protege, so he he drilled his son separately in a separate table while the rest of the family ate in the kitchen.

Um and when he made a mistake in terms of teaching him languages, he would humiliate him. So that Dirac, who ended up being a Nobel Prize winner, wouldn't say anything to other people in public. He wouldn't interact. He certainly couldn't be on a podcast because he was so worried about the reaction if he varied and made a mistake in terms of what he was saying. Um so it got to the point where he was a guy who was brilliant. His father coached him in terms of the academic side.

And he ends up doing this, but he he ends up winning the Nobel. I think a lot of Sheldon in The Big Bang is is based on his his personality characteristics. Um but at the end of the day, he ends up hating his father and sort of tolerating his mother. So that when he wins the Nobel, he invites his mother and refuses to have his father come. And sadly, um his older brother saw the favorite treatment that his he was getting, and he ended up taking his own life.

Um and uh Dirac said that the only time I thought that our parents cared about us was when I saw my dad crying at my brother's funeral. funeral. funeral. So, I'm going, "That's That's a cautionary tale about what cost achievement sends." And uh you know, the parent seemingly was oblivious to how the kids were feeling about the the interaction style, but but you know, eventually it had such significant cost and they developed that sense of resentment over over not not uh getting the kind of treatment and there no no sort of affection was shown certainly by the father.

I'm screwing my son up in lots of ways, but it's not that way. I'm sure you're doing a great job on a lot of things, too. I got to be I got to be the prophet for the uh self self-reward and kindness. Right, exactly. Thank you for modeling that. Yes. that. Yes. that. Yes. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. We talk about mental health more openly these days, but asking for help can still feel hard and BetterHelp's latest research confirms this. BetterHelp's 2026 State of Stigma report surveyed 2,000 Americans and revealed that 85% of Americans believe getting support is wise, yet 74% say society discourages people from doing so.

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Let's just start with a basic definition. What do you mean by mattering? mattering? mattering? Well, this form of mattering is about mattering to other people. So, that other people care about you, other people are interested in you, other people essentially value you. Um so, that they would miss you if you're not around. So, essentially and the most extreme example would be somebody treats you as a special kid, the one who who you know, the grandparent who treats you as a special kid, but people care about you and and clearly you know that um you make a difference in their lives and ideally they they do the same in your life.

You mentioned the grandchild. I think some of your interest in mattering comes from experiences with your grandmother. Yes, the story I like to tell is that both of my grandmothers worked at the cafeteria that was at the top of the road where my my one grandmother and grandfather lived and we would get to go visit and my sister and I would get treated like the king and the queen are there and you know, it was everything was there except the red carpet. Um and uh you know, surrounded by people who knew that we were coming and were also giving us this adulation and it can really mess with you because you don't realize at the time that other kids are not that fortunate.

So, you know, we were we were very fortunate to have this and and the other grandmother who worked there actually lived with us. So, I was sort of raised by our parents, but also our grandmother and grandfather in the house. When you're surrounded by people who show you that kind of care and affection, affection, affection, it's a great start and you know, if only everybody had that start to life because we know that not other others are not as fortunate and uh my mother as well was somebody who was uh you know, so affect She only went to grade eight, but she learned the the street smarts and the importance of relationships.

And where where comes into play in terms of the you know, the mattering as healing. Um I can remember my childhood uh a idyllic there idyllic, but it all took a turn when I was home for lunch the day that JFK was assassinated and the TV was on. So, I'm there home having my lunch. I'm 6 years old and I'm watching the TV, Walter Cronkite, and the news comes that the president has been shot. Ultimately, the president is is gone. And I'm thinking what what this is what how could this be?

I just saw him on TV and how does a 6-year-old make any sense of this? So, my mother and grandmother were both there and they kept me home and said, "Well, you know, we need to talk about it. We want to know what you're thinking." And, you know, I was I was fortunate to be able to have two loving adults who were helped me make some sense out of this. But, I sort of filed it away and didn't realize that there was a research element to this in terms of mattering until much later on down the road.

the road. the road. You had a light bulb moment a about mattering after a near-death experience? Yeah, that that was one of the times I had a light bulb and just say that uh I feel sometimes you study something that you're meant to study. In this case, uh the initial work on mattering was very sparse and I sent off for a book as a graduate student that had this piece in there and I go, "What is this concept?" And I go, "Oh." And Rosenberg, the famous theorist, is saying that this might be the most important part of the self-concept, especially for adolescents in terms of their their sense of worth.

So, I just filed that away. Um Um Um but, later on I had my own health experiences and I actually had a bout of sepsis. I had actually turned totally jaundiced beyond yellow to be actual orange, like pumpkin orange. And um my own Dr. House at the time, I use that example, figured out what the problem was. But, at the time I said, you know, at the end of the day, um my wife told me while I was hooked up to all these transfusions and and wires in the hospital, she phones me while I'm lying there saying, there saying, there saying, "Well, some good news if you actually ever come out of there." And by this time I lost 30 lb and it wasn't looking good.

She said that the university just phoned to say that you're going to be awarded the research chair on personality and health. And I said, well, you know, hopefully I get a chance to do this. It was It's something that's a a a great opportunity in terms of the resources. But, I said, when I get around to it, one of the things I've got to study is that connection to people. And you know, when you're you're lying there thinking this could be it, you're thinking about the people in your life, not you know, anything else.

And doesn't matter how many papers, publications, books, it's you know, these are the people that you're you're thinking about. And I think I read somewhere or heard that you've done some work in a hospice situation. And um I'm sure you've seen when it gets down to the tough times for people that they want the people around them and hope that somebody will be there to, you know, take care of them and show show them that they mattered. And so, can you draw a line specifically between between between perfectionism and mattering and how the latter helps with the former?

Yes, one of the things that's became a become apparent then I think surprised some of the people in the perfectionism field is that a lot of what's driving perfectionism is the unmet interpersonal needs for love, acceptance, belonging, and a need to matter. Perfectionism is almost like a coping mechanism, a way to try and get those unfulfilled interpersonal needs met. So, it's the idea of, well, if I am perfect or if I do better than others, I'm going to get the the the recognition, the significance, the love from other people.

And unfortunately, what happens in the case of this is that extreme instances where there's a very rigid set of circumstances where that love and acceptance is not available, it's never enough. Perfectionists believe that if I am perfect then the interpersonal needs will be met or at least more approximated, but find out in the meantime that actually it's a recipe for the stress getting to you and more loneliness and you know, it's not the answer that they're looking for and sometimes perfectionist go, well, I was actually perfect this one time.

I wasn't getting what I need interpersonally though. So maybe I need to push the bar up even higher because when I go even higher that's and that's how you can really get into an upward spiral that's very self-defeating in the long run. So there's now about six papers overall that have shown the link between perfectionism and the feeling of not mattering. mattering. mattering. And some of these are form of not mattering that's an extreme I don't matter to anyone. So it becomes very generalized when it when it's in a more painful painful painful expression.

expression. expression. And um And um And um you know, then people are kind of caught because they're going, well, even if I'm being a bit successful, I'm still not getting the interpersonal side of what I need addressed. So then what do I do because I've already exhausted myself through trying to be perfect. perfect. perfect. That's the negative side. That's the connection between connection between connection between Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. not feeling that you matter and and subsequently becoming a perfectionist. What it how is it that generating a sense of mattering can solve your perfectionistic impulses?

perfectionistic impulses? perfectionistic impulses? Well, and that would be the case where the the need is is being satisfied and people are saying, I I could see where people could say to themselves, well, maybe I don't need to be perfect in order to get the kind of attention and the respect and the significance. So that you know, that that obviously was a misguided thing and I've learned that I'm getting satisfied in here now. So I don't need to be perfect anymore. And And And that that is something that is a hopeful in terms of you thinking, well, what can we do to try and help the perfectionist in our life?

And if they get a true sense that they truly do matter to people, people, people, some people lose sight of how much they matter and they come up with a mistaken view that they don't matter when they actually do matter. That might be the sort of thing that at least gets them to say maybe I don't need to be perfect all the time or I don't need to be perfect in this I can pick and choose and be a little more selective and a little less judgmental of myself and others because I'm now getting the rewards in life and learning as well that it's not just about achievements, it's about your people in your life.

Right, just to put a put a fine point on that. If you've been laboring under the delusion that perfectionism is what is required for you to feel lovable or to get love, if in fact you can just shift your focus for a moment to the to the fact that there are people, if you're lucky enough to have them in your life who love you no matter what, uh, uh, uh, specifically for who you are, uh, flaws at all, at all, at all, if you can take that in, it can illuminate the absurdity and the self-defeating nature of perfection.

Yeah, and and that's the key you said was if you can take it in. Can you take it in? Are you capable of this and one theorist who talked about perfectionism and procrastination and not mattering said that unfortunately some people have had a life of, you know, maybe neglect for instance and they're not really capable of feeling a sense of mattering at the start. They have to learn to be able to take in the feeling and then apply it to things like their need to be perfect.

So, you know, that that will require a lot of work on the front end to be able to say, you know, look, you do matter. How come you don't feel it? And get people to to get to a point where they have worked on that relationship with the self and are able to now take it in. Uh, Um, so many people reject it and they think, "Oh, people are just trying to humor me. People are just trying to stop me from having my pity party, but I'm going to have the pity party anyway." And, uh, you know, that is driven a lot by the feeling something else involved with perfectionism, which is a deep-seated feeling of being an impostor, where you're not as as actually feeling as good about yourself as other people seem to be treating you.

So, we are going to get, as we always do on the show, we are relentlessly practical. We're going to get to some some thing You have lots of ideas and strategies for how we can generate a sense of mattering. But, before we get Let Let's dwell a little bit longer on the problem. This sense of not mattering can come from, you know, a rough childhood, but can also come from just being part of a community that is devalued by the larger society. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's the truth of it.

And, and, uh, you know, let me just say for your listeners, first of all, that I distinguish between three different types. The mattering is the positive feeling of being valued by others. Anti-mattering is the flip side of that, where you're feeling that you're invisible or insignificant or treating mistreated in a way that makes you feel unvalued or devalued. And then, more recently, we've been studying what we call the fear of not mattering, which has all kinds of implications these days in terms of worries about your future as relates to, like, workplace AI decisions, where you might be made to feel irrelevant and phased out.

As great as mattering is in terms of that feeling and the knowing that you're valued by others, there's the flip side. And, um, the anti-mattering concept, in part, I thought of it because I was looking at work by Nancy Schlossberg on mattering versus marginalization. versus marginalization. versus marginalization. And, we know that it's veridical that many people are put into marginalized situations, where they're uh, looked down on, they're ostracized, or treated a certain way. This is something that's a reality for some people and and what I say in those instances is that's when you need to through the people who are close to you develop a positive sense of mattering to them because it will help you with the challenges and the adversities that you experience through that marginalization and being treated that way and you know, I also realize that when people's lives are stretched, I can think of a single parent for instance with many kids.

You know, I can say well, you you know, you could go and do something like volunteer which is a way to build a sense of mattering and this is what I tell parents of perfectionistic kids who are worried about their kids. They say what can we do here because it's can we what can we do here because it's not us putting pressure on this kid. Sometimes it's the peers, sometimes it's just wanting to achieve to overcompensate for feelings of inferiority and I say well, you can you can volunteer can volunteer can volunteer and show that you are getting a sense of value as a family with the time together so that sense of worth can come through contributing to others rather than you know, single achievement focus.

But I realize that this is kind of blue sky thinking for somebody who's got a life situation where they're just trying to get to to get by on a day-to-day basis and may not have the opportunity to go volunteer or do the sort of things that they ideally would would like to do. I think that anybody exposed vertically to some kind of ism whether it's racism, sexism, ageism sexism, ageism sexism, ageism the their felt experience of that could be this feeling of anti-mattering. And what I like to try and urge people to do there is to not play the game of internalizing that message that other people are or society is sending to you.

Really is true that everybody counts and everybody matters. I always think of Harry Bosch the famous fictional detective, you know, everybody counts or nobody counts. Everybody has something to bring to the table but people internalize that message and don't have others in their lives who give them the more positive mattering message that can help pull them out of it. And I know about the ages, I'm I you know, through skin issues went went white much earlier than you would have through regular aging process. And uh when my research chair was up for renewal the second time, I was trying to balance my own research and and overseeing 200 researchers at our university.

And then the word came through our dean that he heard from the head of research that I wasn't going to be renewed for my research chair. And the the head of research at the university bluntly said, "Well, uh he's too old." You know, I said, "I experienced this the once." And my my approach with these things is the chip on the shoulder I'll show you sort of approach. But I said, "How would it be if you had a life filled with these kind of messages where, you know, it's coming at you from all sides and all people and you didn't have an opportunity that I had to be able to do the I'll show you." So, it's no wonder that the stress and the distress that's sort of built into vertical anti-mattering can really wreak havoc in terms of people's lives and feelings about themselves and and what what Rosenberg said in his a very original work is that we also have to realize that everybody has a need to matter.

And when people aren't getting that need to matter, some people will turn to antisocial means of expression as a way of sort of saying, "You didn't think that I mattered? Well, now maybe you'll think twice because of some of these heinous things that that people end up doing." And that that's been called the search for significance theory of of pretty antisocial behavior. Cuz everybody one of the points I want to underscore is that everybody has this basic need to matter. I believe it's tied right into our survival because I think it's tied into the intention and interest that we get as infants to get us fed and taken care of.

And I see this cuz I now have four grandchildren that are three and under. And I see the interactions and I can't turn off the psychology part of me to say, well, no wonder we need attention, we need to be needed, we need interest of others because it's through getting that interest and attention that we end up getting fed and taken care of early in life before we can even speak. And I think that that makes it so rewarding when we have that sense of attention and interest from others because it's been tied to addressing basic needs, but at the same time so disquieting and so against our nature when we're getting treated in a way that we're not getting attention, we're actually getting devalued and and unregarded by others and uh there I go back to the famous book of Ralph Ellison Invisible Man and it's filled with examples of being treated in a way that you're invisible and you don't matter and Allison said in one interview and one preface to a later edition, he said it's not just a case of being invisible, you get to be looked at in a society where nobody's even seeing you, even considering you, so you're unvisible.

Uh which is a you know, a next level at We don't have time to get into this in a deep way, but but you know, one of the things that you you have argued and I think this is really amply borne out by history um that that and you referenced it earlier, anti-mattering can have very dangerous consequences and I think humiliation is an underappreciated force in human affairs. We see it on the level of geopolitics when nations feel humiliated, the Weimar Republic are that's just one great example that leaps to mind, but uh school shooters for sure and I've I've just seen it play it out play out in my own life that some of the greatest cruelty that that I've experienced is at the hands of people who I humiliated in some way or that I made feel like they didn't matter.

And yeah, so this is a dangerous yeah, so this is a dangerous force that we're playing with here. Brown and Harris did a famous study on the origins of depression and life stress in women back in the 70s and 80s and the number one factor that came through in terms of the most troubling event was being humiliated. Where you're feeling that you've been treated as less than and everybody knows it and you know, it's understandable if it actually did happen that way to have some kind of a strong response to it.

So, let's get practical in terms of how we can boost our mattering quotient personally. Um I think the first question is how can one self-assess? Like Like Like how can I figure out whether I have enough mattering in my life? Usually people who don't have enough mattering in their life have come to to figure it out where they're they're jealous of others or they're wondering why. One of the cues for for feeling that you don't matter is loneliness. Loneliness is so strongly correlated with with the the feeling of not mattering that we talked about it as the double jeopardy of not only feeling alone and isolated but feeling insignificant and irrelevant.

So, I think when people are lonely, they start to think, well, I guess I just don't matter as much as other people or I don't matter enough for somebody to call when I thought they should or or whatever. But people are often incorrect about the self-assessment and this is a key point I want to underscore for for your listeners is that people are often wrong about this and Rosenberg talked about this back in 1981 because he said that, you know, it's a very subjective appraisal. Do I matter to others?

And well, we turns out that about three out of 10 people have a feeling of not mattering to others but within there are some who actually do matter to others but they don't realize it. A lot of people undersell themselves that they don't realize they matter when they do. So, we need to realize that people we matter more to people than than we often know and this is why I say that whatever we talk about in terms of making sure that people have a sense of matter.

We need to know that people know for certain that they matter. The subjective element is really, really problematic. One study done with a school board I worked with, uh we found that overall that about 30% of the students said they didn't feel like they mattered or they weren't sure. When parents were asked, "Is it possible your child has a sense of not mattering?" Only 8% said, "May maybe my kid feels like he or she doesn't matter." So, about one out of five of the students were walking around feeling like they don't matter when their parents thought that they actually did believe that they mattered.

So, when I tell this to a group of parents, I get horrified looks because now they're thinking, "Oh, no, am I one of these parents? I thought my kid was okay." And my advice to those parents is, "You want to make sure you don't feel worried anymore, show them that they matter. And don't stop when they hit the adolescence period where they say, you know, 'Talk to the hand, I'm too cool to to show that I need anything from a from a parent's because they still want to know that you care, they still want to know that you're interested in them and you're looking out for them, but they just won't admit it necessarily because that's just not on according to the age group.

So, I say to to parents and anyone really, if you're not sure about whether somebody knows, show them that you care through the various means that that can drive that message home and and don't stop showing it until they say they've had enough because people will find a way through their insecurities and self-doubts to convince themselves they don't matter when in fact they do matter. My wife and I have been enjoying IQ bars recently. These are plant-based protein bars that taste great when most plant-based products honestly taste like chalk.

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See terms for details. This gets us to practical tips for boosting your own sense of mattering. One of the ways to boost your own sense of mattering is to help other people feel like they matter. Yeah, that's a critical thing. There's extensive lit. So, being a mentor, being a coach, being a volunteer. There's a reason why some people take it too far in terms of the service of others. others. others. Um because they get that sense of reward and validation in the moment. Indeed, when I became I became undergraduate director for the students as I mentioned earlier and the predecessor who was somebody I was close to said to me, "Why should you do this?

Because others have said no. Why would you want to take on this role?" He goes, "Unlike writing a paper or something, you are going to find students that you are able to help in a way that will change their lives and you will be able to go home that night knowing that you made a difference and nobody's going to be able to mess with that and to take it away. So, just a sense of otherness but it doesn't have to involve um going and doing things like volunteering or mentoring or coaching.

It can just be how you learn to relate to other people where you you check in on them. I know you've had people talking about interaction styles, about the importance of deep and responsive listening, which is a key in terms of getting that reciprocity of mattering to each other. One thing I say there is it's not just about deeply listening to someone, but it's also asking. Just thinking about what might be important and that we're showing an interest in something that they're doing. So asking and through that about what what's going on with them.

Just checking in unexpectedly. We're we're not too far away from the school where our our daughters were fortunate to go to and there was an amazing principal there. She Peggy Morrison was the master of the personal note, which we don't get a lot of these days. But if you write a letter or a note to somebody, especially now when it's something that people don't do a lot of, they know that you've taken the time to think about them and then you can express how you feel and how much you you appreciate them.

A big element of mattering to others is that showing that you they are appreciated and showing them that that you are really appreciating not only what they have done, but you also appreciate who they are as a person and to show you the impact that that can have on someone. Just before the pandemic, I was giving a public lecture at our university. Nobody knowing what was coming in a couple of months. months. months. And it was filled to capacity and not because of me, it was filled to capacity because of mattering and the deep resonance it has with everybody to the point for the first time ever, they had to get another lecture hall and fill it up and and send me there remotely so that the people were showing up and no seats left for them had a place to to where they could they could hear what was going on.

I'm giving my my public lecture and when I'm talking about facets of mattering, I said Nancy Schlossberg introduced the concept of appreciation that you know, we know we matter when we feel appreciated and we know we don't matter when we are doing something that seems to be not appreciated. And uh she talked about how the only time that anybody has ever said they matter too much are caregivers who feel that they know they're appreciated, but it's got past the point of reason and and affecting them.

So I said to people knowing this, I said, "One thing I want to say about appreciation, I know cuz we were going through it a bit." I said, "If you're somebody in the audience who's in a caregiving situation where you've been giving yourself to other people, which is what we talk about in terms of giving value to others, I said, "I want you to know how appreciated it is by me and by other people, including the other people who don't do it, but are so glad that you're doing it." So I said this and I started to go on and then I could hear in the front row it sound it sound like somebody was crying.

And I looked up and sure enough there was a lady in the front row, about middle-aged, and she had tears streaming down her face and she was trying not to audibly sob. audibly sob. audibly sob. And it's quite a visual distraction when you're giving a talk and you go, "Great, now something's happened." Um so at the end of it though, eventually she got under control and she came up to me and she said, "I I need to apologize to you." And I said, "No, you don't." I said, "You're human.

That's, you know, whatever it was." I said, "But I hope you're okay now." And she goes, "I want you to know that when you said that appreciation for caregivers was such an important thing." She goes, "I have dedicated myself to other people as a caregiver. This is the first time that anybody's ever told me that I'm appreciated and I couldn't See, I didn't realize I was carrying around this need to hear somebody say it. To say somebody said that what I was doing was needed and that people cared about and recognized what I was doing." And I said, "How sad this is that nobody along the way would tell somebody that they're appreciated." People who need to hear this and include first line responders as well.

as well. as well. We recently had a medical incident in our house where I had to phone 911 back in in the fall, right around when the our Blue Jays were losing the World Series, but we came close. And uh I found and paramedics uh fire fire personnel immediately came, then the paramedics came. Turned out to be okay in the long run, but everybody that left that night, I want them to know that I really appreciate it. And I said, "What a relief it was when you were so desperately needing somebody like this to see that truck roll up, whether it's a fire truck or it's an an ambulance." And so, I thank each and every one of them.

Uh and unfortunately, the person I didn't get to thank was the amazing person answering the call, the 911 call. And I mentioned this because we're doing some research on these people and and police officers as well as those people who answered the 911 calls, there's a subset of them who convince themselves that what they're doing doesn't matter. And our work shows that about one out of four are saying, "You know what? I'm doing this, but I don't really matter." And I'm thinking, this has to be somebody who nobody's ever sat down and said, "You're so appreciated in terms of what you've been doing." Uh because because they're judging themselves and maybe according to the self-criticism and uh lack of self-compassion that we've talked about already, Dan.

But but uh uh uh you know, people need to know that they're appreciated. So, just letting them know they're appreciated, they don't have to do anything spectacular, but just acknowledging it will yield amazing benefits. Cuz one of the things that consistently comes up when I read accounts of not mattering and burnout across different jobs is the sense of "What I'm doing is not appreciated." Another way in the work setting to give people a sense of mattering is to really give them a sense of voice where you're seriously letting people have a weighing in on opinions and and decisions that need to be made um because people need to feel that whatever is happening in in whatever setting is co-created and they have a voice that's being recognized and acknowledged and and even heated when there's change that needs to occur.

And again, allow engaging in these behaviors of helping other people know they matter. they matter. they matter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Boomerangs back on you because inculcates a sense of significance for you. However, as you said, there are some people who'd go so far in the caregiving direction that they feel unappreciated. And for them, would you say that one of the potential remedies would be to speak up and say, I need you know, to to I need some recognition here I need a thank you. Get together with other caregivers who are there to say, hey, we know what you're going through and we appreciate you because we know that that's what we've needed along the way.

I've given talks for talks for talks for the Alzheimer's Society here in Ontario on on caregiving stress and how you know, even even when somebody family member is really in deep state of cognitive difficulty, you still need to see a glimmer or some kind of thank you or the staff needs to be able to to weigh in and express what they understand about what people are going through as family members. I think there's just the the general message here is it's important to be aware of people's need to matter and just look for opportunities to let others know that you care about them and you acknowledge and and appreciate what what they've been doing.

And then the real key is for those people who aren't able to internalize that at the end of the day you need to be able to to matter to yourself and that that's where I would think where the most of the coaching is for those people who are on the path to burnout. Maybe they're perfectionist who are just are just are just giving themselves up and not leaving enough for themselves and giving everything to others in a very in balanced unbalanced way. And you know, I I I once gave a talk recently where I said, let's complete these stems, these sentence stems.

I know I matter to myself when myself when myself when you know, because people need to make this as a mindful component of of their day I think when we talk about mindfulness, which is correlated with with mattering, by the way. Um but they need to be mindful about mattering, and especially in terms of being mindful about their own own need to to matter and protect themselves and take care of themselves. themselves. themselves. I absolutely get and I think it seems completely obvious and doable that life is filled with opportunities to be kind to other people, which can then make them feel like they matter, which in turn makes you feel like you matter.

But the idea of specifically going at generating a sense of mattering to yourself, how would you coach people to to develop that? It's not easy because people are so focused on other people or or as I say, the perfectionists just keep keep pushing themselves. pushing themselves. pushing themselves. What I tell people is they have to essentially have a sit down with themselves and look at it, am I getting where I need to be? Am I am I feeling the way I should be feeling about life?

And if not, it's because they're not mattering to others, but also they're engaging in self-defeating tendencies. Anything that that might be pushing things to the limit is something that needs to have some self-analysis. But it's as you say, it's not not easy to do. Um Um Um I tell people, you know, just some basic habits you need to get into. Know know to when it's time to try to get some sleep as as opposed to just keep pushing and pushing and pushing. Know to not look at screens when you're going to bed at night.

And maybe also though, rearranging your time and when so that you're having more of the relationship focus that you need, where you'll get you'll get that sense of I need to matter to myself because this person cares about me, so why don't I care about myself more? I'm I'm really concerned about evidence that is out there about the shrinking friendship circles, especially among younger people, where we're not engaged in this. I was just talking I went to see the the before we had the session today and he was talking about how people just don't have the conversations that we had growing up where friends are sitting under a tree growing up and they're talking in person or you just phone somebody and you hear their voice rather than just relying on a text message all the time.

Some of it is is I think you can pick up on it through you know realizing that people care about you and then well I I can now infer that I should care about myself. This is what the sociologist and social psychologist said about what we call these reflected appraisals that you know oh we see how people are reacting to us we need to start internalizing that in terms of the sense of mattering to the other people to oneself as well. But but it's not easy because people tend to just keep pushing themselves and and many people are selfless to the point of you know putting themselves in jeopardy and it's okay I think I remember I think it might have been Salieri who talked about an altruistic altruistic egotism where you're altruistic but you realize that you should be getting some benefit out of it as well and when the point is reached that you are not feeling the benefits you need to scale back on that or find something else that will give you that that sense of benefit.

This has been such a fascinating conversation about the scourge of perfectionism and the positive influence of mattering and how to tap into it. Is is there something you were hoping that we would get to that we haven't gotten to? to? to? Yeah just one thing I would say I mentioned in passing the fear of not mattering mattering mattering and I think that this is something as a society we need to start focusing on these days. It's very easy when when you're um feeling that the world is dictating to you how things are going to be to feel very small and now with AI in particular you can have that fear of not mattering cuz you feel that they're coming for you and your job um or alternatively the fear of not mattering that I would experience for instance because I retired at the start of last year and you're thinking, "Okay, well now are you still going to have a chance to talk about things like this with with Dan?" And and others, you know.

So, it's important to balance the focus on antimattering with that that fear of not mattering and how we can learn to not let that fear overwhelm us as well. But, I think that this is something that people should talk about openly with other people because you'll find that everybody has a need to matter. And if you say something as simple as, "You know, I'm worried that AI is coming for my job. How are you feeling about this in terms of your job?" That gives people a sense of similarities and and unites them in something they can talk about because ultimately the best relationships are the ones where people let down their guard and are willing to share what's going on internally with them in terms of the thoughts, feelings, fears, and so on.

And uh this fear of not mattering we have found is a particularly driving the link between between between um the mattering construct and social media addiction. media addiction. media addiction. And uh this is one thing I encourage people I want to do more reading about is that mattering and the not mattering and these fears have a role to play in virtually all the big ticket problems that we've been talking about. I listened to your your session with Dr. Murthy, the two-parter. And uh loneliness and the fear of not mattering are mattering are mattering are closely related.

So, this is why we need to proactively find ways to boost that sense of mattering and that sense of connection. connection. connection. Um and and put down the devices because it's just feeding into that unmet need to matter. You're finding ways to satisfy it that are very surface rather than engaging in the deep conversations and interpersonal one-to-one relationships that people really need and crave. Amen. Amen. Amen. If people want to learn more about you or from you, how can they do so? I'm on Twitter/X and if if people need to contact me, it's easy to find.

It's email gflat@yorku.ca. email gflat@yorku.ca. email gflat@yorku.ca. Um and um I can say that there are some public lectures that are on YouTube that they wanted to just hear more about mattering, but not also me. There's There's other scholars. One that recently passed, the the late great Isaac Prilleltensky. Uh he introduced the concept of mattering as having value to others and uh giving value to others in terms of the the volunteering and the like. like. like. And there's a lot of material out there for people. I purposely, whenever I can, publish an academic paper and try to write it in language for real people.

Uh I was the only one, by the way, in my family that went to university and I laugh when they say, "Well, you got to don't use the academic terms." That That wouldn't have lasted 2 seconds with my mother at home. Um but there's a lot of papers that are called open access that are out there for people to read that they can find out much more about mattering. You just do a search on me and mattering and many of these papers will will pop up and then there'll be other people's papers as well.

Gordon Flett, this has been a a fantastic conversation, super helpful, super interesting. Really appreciate your time. Thank you. I greatly enjoyed it and hopefully we'll get a chance somewhere down the road to do it again. Thank you so much to everybody who worked so hard to make this show. 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vassili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Shneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

Also, one last thing before I let you go, our Summer Sunday Live series is officially underway. Every Sunday at 4:00 Eastern, you can join the legendary meditation teacher Sharon Salzberg for a deep dive into the Buddha's Buddha's Buddha's cookbook for happiness, the eightfold path. You can catch up on replays if you've already missed a few of the sessions and you can join the next live meditation and Q&A only on the 10% with Dan Harris app. Go to danharris.com to start a free trial.