Nutritionist Exposes the Flaws in the New Health Pyramid

The Trump administration making over The Trump administration making over America's food pyramid. America's food pyramid. America's food pyramid. >> For decades, federal policy promoted and >> For decades, federal policy promoted and >> For decades, federal policy promoted and subsidized highly processed foods. These subsidized highly processed foods. These subsidized highly processed foods. These new guidelines will make America new guidelines will make America new guidelines will make America healthy. healthy. healthy. >> Many in the health community worry about >> Many in the health community worry about >> Many in the health community worry about the increase in protein. the increase in protein. the increase in protein. >> They have caused quite a bit of >> They have caused quite a bit of >> They have caused quite a bit of discourse. What's good about them? discourse. What's good about them? discourse. What's good about them? What's maybe not so good about them. The What's maybe not so good about them. The What's maybe not so good about them. The problem is that most people will double problem is that most people will double problem is that most people will double down on red meat based on what those new down on red meat based on what those new down on red meat based on what those new guidelines look like. makes it very hard guidelines look like. makes it very hard guidelines look like. makes it very hard to actually consume less than 10% of to actually consume less than 10% of to actually consume less than 10% of calories from saturated fat. It does calories from saturated fat. It does calories from saturated fat. It does feel like mixed messaging and this is feel like mixed messaging and this is feel like mixed messaging and this is what's making us sick. I would have what's making us sick. I would have what's making us sick. I would have liked to have seen more commentary liked to have seen more commentary liked to have seen more commentary around the fact that 95% of Americans around the fact that 95% of Americans around the fact that 95% of Americans get nowhere near the fiber get nowhere near the fiber get nowhere near the fiber recommendations. This is when that idea recommendations. This is when that idea recommendations. This is when that idea of animal protein being better quality, of animal protein being better quality, of animal protein being better quality, you have to really question it. I've you have to really question it. I've you have to really question it. I've gone through this evidence with you in gone through this evidence with you in gone through this evidence with you in previous episodes, so we we don't have previous episodes, so we we don't have previous episodes, so we we don't have to go through all of it. But what I'll to go through all of it. But what I'll to go through all of it. But what I'll say is that Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. We have our resident nutrition science We have our resident nutrition science We have our resident nutrition science expert, Simon Hill, host of the Proof expert, Simon Hill, host of the Proof expert, Simon Hill, host of the Proof Podcast. And my intention for this Podcast. And my intention for this Podcast. And my intention for this episode of the podcast is to have a very episode of the podcast is to have a very episode of the podcast is to have a very focused discussion, the first and what I focused discussion, the first and what I focused discussion, the first and what I hope will turn into a kind of regular hope will turn into a kind of regular hope will turn into a kind of regular feature of this show in which we take an feature of this show in which we take an feature of this show in which we take an aspect of nutrition and kind of dive aspect of nutrition and kind of dive aspect of nutrition and kind of dive into it deeply. But just to get right into it deeply. But just to get right into it deeply. But just to get right into it, what's different about these into it, what's different about these into it, what's different about these new guidelines that sets it apart from new guidelines that sets it apart from new guidelines that sets it apart from the previous guidelines? Obviously, we the previous guidelines? Obviously, we the previous guidelines? Obviously, we have an inverted pyramid versus a plate have an inverted pyramid versus a plate have an inverted pyramid versus a plate which preceded it. Uh so where do we which preceded it. Uh so where do we which preceded it. Uh so where do we begin to understand these differences? begin to understand these differences? begin to understand these differences? >> Yeah, I think there's more in common >> Yeah, I think there's more in common >> Yeah, I think there's more in common with the previous guidelines than maybe with the previous guidelines than maybe with the previous guidelines than maybe a lot of people have been led to a lot of people have been led to a lot of people have been led to believe. That's the first thing that I believe. That's the first thing that I believe. That's the first thing that I would state. And so um there this this would state. And so um there this this would state. And so um there this this current set of guidelines has I guess current set of guidelines has I guess current set of guidelines has I guess really emphasized eating real food. Um, really emphasized eating real food. Um, really emphasized eating real food. Um, but I'll say that the old plate also but I'll say that the old plate also but I'll say that the old plate also emphasized eating real food. It just emphasized eating real food. It just emphasized eating real food. It just didn't really call it out as explicitly didn't really call it out as explicitly didn't really call it out as explicitly as that. And I think that that that as that. And I think that that that as that. And I think that that that emphasis in the new guidelines is emphasis in the new guidelines is emphasis in the new guidelines is actually a real positive. They've come actually a real positive. They've come actually a real positive. They've come out and said, "Let's eat whole, out and said, "Let's eat whole, out and said, "Let's eat whole, minimally processed foods." And they minimally processed foods." And they minimally processed foods." And they were a little stronger in calling out were a little stronger in calling out were a little stronger in calling out what they described as hyperrocessed what they described as hyperrocessed what they described as hyperrocessed foods. And so the intent behind that was foods. And so the intent behind that was foods. And so the intent behind that was to discourage the consumption of the to discourage the consumption of the to discourage the consumption of the hyper palatable what many people may hyper palatable what many people may hyper palatable what many people may have previously or heard others describe have previously or heard others describe have previously or heard others describe as ultrarocessed foods like Kevin Hull. as ultrarocessed foods like Kevin Hull. as ultrarocessed foods like Kevin Hull. Those are the foods that are high in fat Those are the foods that are high in fat Those are the foods that are high in fat and sodium and sugar that are often and sodium and sugar that are often and sodium and sugar that are often found in the center of the grocery store found in the center of the grocery store found in the center of the grocery store are extremely palatable and delicious are extremely palatable and delicious are extremely palatable and delicious and are associated with excessive and are associated with excessive and are associated with excessive calorie consumption and a whole host of calorie consumption and a whole host of calorie consumption and a whole host of um downstream metabolic consequences and um downstream metabolic consequences and um downstream metabolic consequences and chronic disease. So that is a big tick chronic disease. So that is a big tick chronic disease. So that is a big tick for the new guidelines. The there's also for the new guidelines. The there's also for the new guidelines. The there's also the continued recommendation to keep the continued recommendation to keep the continued recommendation to keep saturated fat below 10% of total saturated fat below 10% of total saturated fat below 10% of total calories. calories. calories. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> That's not something that's changed. So, >> That's not something that's changed. So, >> That's not something that's changed. So, you may have seen RFK Jr. or others in you may have seen RFK Jr. or others in you may have seen RFK Jr. or others in the media saying they're going to come the media saying they're going to come the media saying they're going to come out and take a different approach with out and take a different approach with out and take a different approach with saturated fat or fat in these saturated fat or fat in these saturated fat or fat in these guidelines. And in actual fact, in these guidelines. And in actual fact, in these guidelines. And in actual fact, in these guidelines, they still recommend guidelines, they still recommend guidelines, they still recommend consuming a diet that has less than 10% consuming a diet that has less than 10% consuming a diet that has less than 10% of calories from saturated fat. And of calories from saturated fat. And of calories from saturated fat. And that's consistent with the best research that's consistent with the best research that's consistent with the best research we have looking at fat, quality of fat we have looking at fat, quality of fat we have looking at fat, quality of fat and and cardiovascular disease in in and and cardiovascular disease in in and and cardiovascular disease in in particular. So I was happy to see that particular. So I was happy to see that particular. So I was happy to see that in there. in there. in there. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> The problem is that the the the >> The problem is that the the the >> The problem is that the the the recommendations particularly around recommendations particularly around recommendations particularly around prioritizing protein richch foods prioritizing protein richch foods prioritizing protein richch foods um and then emphasizing animal sources um and then emphasizing animal sources um and then emphasizing animal sources of of protein and recommending the of of protein and recommending the of of protein and recommending the consumption of full fat dairy. And then consumption of full fat dairy. And then consumption of full fat dairy. And then for cooking oils, adding in there that for cooking oils, adding in there that for cooking oils, adding in there that butter and tallow are also good options butter and tallow are also good options butter and tallow are also good options makes it very hard when you follow the makes it very hard when you follow the makes it very hard when you follow the guidelines to actually consume less than guidelines to actually consume less than guidelines to actually consume less than 10% of calories from saturated fat. It 10% of calories from saturated fat. It 10% of calories from saturated fat. It does feel like mixed messaging because does feel like mixed messaging because does feel like mixed messaging because as you correctly pointed out, they very as you correctly pointed out, they very as you correctly pointed out, they very explicitly state that we should be explicitly state that we should be explicitly state that we should be maintaining our intake of saturated fat maintaining our intake of saturated fat maintaining our intake of saturated fat below 10%. But when you look at this below 10%. But when you look at this below 10%. But when you look at this inverted pyramid, you see all of these inverted pyramid, you see all of these inverted pyramid, you see all of these animal foods at the top. And there is animal foods at the top. And there is animal foods at the top. And there is explicit and inferred reference and explicit and inferred reference and explicit and inferred reference and prioritization prioritization prioritization of red meat, animal proteins, this of red meat, animal proteins, this of red meat, animal proteins, this emphasis on full fat dairy, and as you emphasis on full fat dairy, and as you emphasis on full fat dairy, and as you said, butter and beef tallow. That's said, butter and beef tallow. That's said, butter and beef tallow. That's curious and interesting and different curious and interesting and different curious and interesting and different obviously. And so there seems to be a obviously. And so there seems to be a obviously. And so there seems to be a sort of inherent conflict between this sort of inherent conflict between this sort of inherent conflict between this messaging of maintaining your intake of messaging of maintaining your intake of messaging of maintaining your intake of saturated fat under 10%. With these, you saturated fat under 10%. With these, you saturated fat under 10%. With these, you know, with the imagery of these other know, with the imagery of these other know, with the imagery of these other foods that are at the very top of this foods that are at the very top of this foods that are at the very top of this new graphic, which seems to communicate new graphic, which seems to communicate new graphic, which seems to communicate this idea that these are the healthiest this idea that these are the healthiest this idea that these are the healthiest foods and these are the ones that you foods and these are the ones that you foods and these are the ones that you should be prioritizing, should be prioritizing, should be prioritizing, >> right? Yeah. So if you if you were to >> right? Yeah. So if you if you were to >> right? Yeah. So if you if you were to just create a plate of food consistently just create a plate of food consistently just create a plate of food consistently around the pyramid and those guidelines, around the pyramid and those guidelines, around the pyramid and those guidelines, most people will naturally consume more most people will naturally consume more most people will naturally consume more than 10% of their calories from than 10% of their calories from than 10% of their calories from saturated fat. And I actually had a a saturated fat. And I actually had a a saturated fat. And I actually had a a conversation with Dr. Christopher conversation with Dr. Christopher conversation with Dr. Christopher Gardner who was part of one of the Gardner who was part of one of the Gardner who was part of one of the committees that spent two years committees that spent two years committees that spent two years researching to provide an advisory researching to provide an advisory researching to provide an advisory report for the dietary guidelines and report for the dietary guidelines and report for the dietary guidelines and also Ty Beal who was part of a different also Ty Beal who was part of a different also Ty Beal who was part of a different group who were engaged um by RFK Jr. to group who were engaged um by RFK Jr. to group who were engaged um by RFK Jr. to provide their own report. And both of provide their own report. And both of provide their own report. And both of them agreed that just like Health Canada them agreed that just like Health Canada them agreed that just like Health Canada in their dietary guidelines which in their dietary guidelines which in their dietary guidelines which specifically says to where possible specifically says to where possible specifically says to where possible choose healthy protein from plants in choose healthy protein from plants in choose healthy protein from plants in their guidelines. That recommendation their guidelines. That recommendation their guidelines. That recommendation really needed to be to be in there and really needed to be to be in there and really needed to be to be in there and made clear so that yes, there can be a a made clear so that yes, there can be a a made clear so that yes, there can be a a guideline around the importance of guideline around the importance of guideline around the importance of protein, but protein source is really protein, but protein source is really protein, but protein source is really important. Mhm. important. Mhm. important. Mhm. >> And when you look at the totality of >> And when you look at the totality of >> And when you look at the totality of evidence beyond just muscle, but you evidence beyond just muscle, but you evidence beyond just muscle, but you look at protein sources and how it look at protein sources and how it look at protein sources and how it affects cardiovascular disease risk, affects cardiovascular disease risk, affects cardiovascular disease risk, risk of type 2 diabetes, just premature risk of type 2 diabetes, just premature risk of type 2 diabetes, just premature death, you know, in long-term death, you know, in long-term death, you know, in long-term observational studies, it becomes clear observational studies, it becomes clear observational studies, it becomes clear that plant protein leads to better that plant protein leads to better that plant protein leads to better long-term health outcomes. And it's not long-term health outcomes. And it's not long-term health outcomes. And it's not to say that someone only needs to eat to say that someone only needs to eat to say that someone only needs to eat plant protein, but the average American plant protein, but the average American plant protein, but the average American today is getting about 75% of their today is getting about 75% of their today is getting about 75% of their daily protein from animal protein, daily protein from animal protein, daily protein from animal protein, which of course leaves just 25% from which of course leaves just 25% from which of course leaves just 25% from plant protein. And they would be doing plant protein. And they would be doing plant protein. And they would be doing much better if even if that shifted to a much better if even if that shifted to a much better if even if that shifted to a 50/50. 50/50. 50/50. >> Mhm. So absent that direct advice to >> Mhm. So absent that direct advice to >> Mhm. So absent that direct advice to consume more plant protein and to really consume more plant protein and to really consume more plant protein and to really prioritize plant protein in in the prioritize plant protein in in the prioritize plant protein in in the pyramid itself because if you look at pyramid itself because if you look at pyramid itself because if you look at the size of the the legumes in that the size of the the legumes in that the size of the the legumes in that pyramid compared to the ribeye, they're pyramid compared to the ribeye, they're pyramid compared to the ribeye, they're tiny. So most people are going to tiny. So most people are going to tiny. So most people are going to overlook that and and I think as a overlook that and and I think as a overlook that and and I think as a consequence of these guidelines double consequence of these guidelines double consequence of these guidelines double down on the consumption of of beef and down on the consumption of of beef and down on the consumption of of beef and poultry and full fat dairy, poultry and full fat dairy, poultry and full fat dairy, >> right? which plays into this inherent >> right? which plays into this inherent >> right? which plays into this inherent contradiction between the statements contradiction between the statements contradiction between the statements around saturated fat and what is around saturated fat and what is around saturated fat and what is actually being communicated through this actually being communicated through this actually being communicated through this graphic. Uh but what you just shared graphic. Uh but what you just shared graphic. Uh but what you just shared also brings up a whole bunch of other also brings up a whole bunch of other also brings up a whole bunch of other issues. Uh you mentioned the advisory issues. Uh you mentioned the advisory issues. Uh you mentioned the advisory committee, the 2025 advisory committee committee, the 2025 advisory committee committee, the 2025 advisory committee that Christopher Gardner was that Christopher Gardner was that Christopher Gardner was participating in. Um this conjures up participating in. Um this conjures up participating in. Um this conjures up questions of process and procedure like questions of process and procedure like questions of process and procedure like what is the process by which these what is the process by which these what is the process by which these guidelines are established and guidelines are established and guidelines are established and historically there are committees of historically there are committees of historically there are committees of people there is this advisory committee people there is this advisory committee people there is this advisory committee and it's implied that like the and it's implied that like the and it's implied that like the administration administration administration um takes the recommendations from this um takes the recommendations from this um takes the recommendations from this committee and that's what ends up in committee and that's what ends up in committee and that's what ends up in these recommendations. In the case of these recommendations. In the case of these recommendations. In the case of the new guidelines that really wasn't the new guidelines that really wasn't the new guidelines that really wasn't the case. So we have this advisory the case. So we have this advisory the case. So we have this advisory committee that creates this report and committee that creates this report and committee that creates this report and it was uh to some degree uh it was uh to some degree uh it was uh to some degree uh plantforward, not entirely plant-based, plantforward, not entirely plant-based, plantforward, not entirely plant-based, but it emphasized vegetables, fruits, but it emphasized vegetables, fruits, but it emphasized vegetables, fruits, legumes, nuts, whole grains. It talks legumes, nuts, whole grains. It talks legumes, nuts, whole grains. It talks about fish and seafood and unsaturated about fish and seafood and unsaturated about fish and seafood and unsaturated fats. Uh but it didn't have mention of fats. Uh but it didn't have mention of fats. Uh but it didn't have mention of prioritizing animal proteins, let alone prioritizing animal proteins, let alone prioritizing animal proteins, let alone red meat uh or beef tallow, right? like red meat uh or beef tallow, right? like red meat uh or beef tallow, right? like that seems to fly in the face of the that seems to fly in the face of the that seems to fly in the face of the recommendations. Um, so what do you make recommendations. Um, so what do you make recommendations. Um, so what do you make of that disconnect between the committee of that disconnect between the committee of that disconnect between the committee report and the decisions that were made report and the decisions that were made report and the decisions that were made regarding those aspects of the of the regarding those aspects of the of the regarding those aspects of the of the inverted pyramid that are kind of inverted pyramid that are kind of inverted pyramid that are kind of anathema to the recommendations? anathema to the recommendations? anathema to the recommendations? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, the current >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, the current >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, the current administration essentially set those the administration essentially set those the administration essentially set those the committee's recommendations to the side committee's recommendations to the side committee's recommendations to the side and then created their own uh additional and then created their own uh additional and then created their own uh additional panel of scientists which which then did panel of scientists which which then did panel of scientists which which then did their own scientific foundation uh their own scientific foundation uh their own scientific foundation uh report which is what Tai Beiel and Don report which is what Tai Beiel and Don report which is what Tai Beiel and Don Layman were a part of. And so they they Layman were a part of. And so they they Layman were a part of. And so they they were tasked with reviewing the the were tasked with reviewing the the were tasked with reviewing the the advisory piece from Christopher advisory piece from Christopher advisory piece from Christopher Gardner's committee and they would they Gardner's committee and they would they Gardner's committee and they would they went through 50 plus recommendations and went through 50 plus recommendations and went through 50 plus recommendations and you just spoke to some of those you just spoke to some of those you just spoke to some of those recommendations were about eating more recommendations were about eating more recommendations were about eating more plant protein and they were recommending plant protein and they were recommending plant protein and they were recommending like Mediterranean dash pescatarian like Mediterranean dash pescatarian like Mediterranean dash pescatarian style dietary patterns with a lot of style dietary patterns with a lot of style dietary patterns with a lot of fiber and unsaturated fats and low and fiber and unsaturated fats and low and fiber and unsaturated fats and low and ultrarocessed foods. ultrarocessed foods. ultrarocessed foods. and around 30 of the 50s something and around 30 of the 50s something and around 30 of the 50s something recommendations recommendations recommendations were completely rejected were completely rejected were completely rejected and they put forward their own kind of and they put forward their own kind of and they put forward their own kind of set of recommendations to the set of recommendations to the set of recommendations to the administration. Now the interesting administration. Now the interesting administration. Now the interesting thing is I thought Don Layman Ty Beiel thing is I thought Don Layman Ty Beiel thing is I thought Don Layman Ty Beiel and that group wrote the guidelines but and that group wrote the guidelines but and that group wrote the guidelines but they didn't even write the guidelines they didn't even write the guidelines they didn't even write the guidelines they just hand over their advisory piece they just hand over their advisory piece they just hand over their advisory piece and the admin administration does what and the admin administration does what and the admin administration does what they want to do with it. So, at the end they want to do with it. So, at the end they want to do with it. So, at the end of the day, and this might surprise of the day, and this might surprise of the day, and this might surprise people, I'm I'm I'm led to believe people, I'm I'm I'm led to believe people, I'm I'm I'm led to believe through these conversations I've had through these conversations I've had through these conversations I've had that that really it's politicians that that that really it's politicians that that that really it's politicians that end up writing the the guidelines. Uh, end up writing the the guidelines. Uh, end up writing the the guidelines. Uh, and to to get to the heart of your and to to get to the heart of your and to to get to the heart of your question, I mean, based on what the question, I mean, based on what the question, I mean, based on what the guidelines look like, based on where the guidelines look like, based on where the guidelines look like, based on where the scientific committee's recommendations scientific committee's recommendations scientific committee's recommendations were and my understanding of the broader were and my understanding of the broader were and my understanding of the broader literature, literature, literature, I I have to think that there there are I I have to think that there there are I I have to think that there there are um um um there are reasons beyond public health there are reasons beyond public health there are reasons beyond public health that have influenced that set of that have influenced that set of that have influenced that set of recommendations. recommendations. recommendations. >> And what would those be, Simon? >> And what would those be, Simon? >> And what would those be, Simon? >> I mean, we would we would be >> I mean, we would we would be >> I mean, we would we would be speculating, but I'm sure that there's speculating, but I'm sure that there's speculating, but I'm sure that there's all sorts of corporate and financial all sorts of corporate and financial all sorts of corporate and financial interests that are affecting the way interests that are affecting the way interests that are affecting the way that things are worded. So, let's that things are worded. So, let's that things are worded. So, let's maintain maintain maintain >> Well, there's also the personal >> Well, there's also the personal >> Well, there's also the personal preferences of people like RFK Jr. who preferences of people like RFK Jr. who preferences of people like RFK Jr. who are at the helm of this, are there not? are at the helm of this, are there not? are at the helm of this, are there not? >> Totally. And he he may, you know, a lot >> Totally. And he he may, you know, a lot >> Totally. And he he may, you know, a lot of us can be we have biases that we're of us can be we have biases that we're of us can be we have biases that we're unaware of. And he may be blinded by his unaware of. And he may be blinded by his unaware of. And he may be blinded by his own anecdotal experience of feeling own anecdotal experience of feeling own anecdotal experience of feeling better on the way that he eats, but better on the way that he eats, but better on the way that he eats, but that's not representative of science. that's not representative of science. that's not representative of science. And And And >> there's no scientific evidence-based >> there's no scientific evidence-based >> there's no scientific evidence-based rationale for promoting beef tallow. rationale for promoting beef tallow. rationale for promoting beef tallow. >> No. And if you I mean, if you go back >> No. And if you I mean, if you go back >> No. And if you I mean, if you go back and read the wording of of the the and read the wording of of the the and read the wording of of the the healthy fat section in that paper, a a healthy fat section in that paper, a a healthy fat section in that paper, a a year one nutrition scientist would be year one nutrition scientist would be year one nutrition scientist would be able to pick up the errors that were in able to pick up the errors that were in able to pick up the errors that were in there. It says to, you know, it there. It says to, you know, it there. It says to, you know, it specifically says eat more oils rich in specifically says eat more oils rich in specifically says eat more oils rich in essential fats like olive oil. Now, essential fats like olive oil. Now, essential fats like olive oil. Now, olive oil contains some essential fats, olive oil contains some essential fats, olive oil contains some essential fats, but it's very small amount. If if you but it's very small amount. If if you but it's very small amount. If if you were wanting to eat an oil that's rich were wanting to eat an oil that's rich were wanting to eat an oil that's rich in essential fats, essential fats are in essential fats, essential fats are in essential fats, essential fats are our omega6 and omega-3 fats, you'd be our omega6 and omega-3 fats, you'd be our omega6 and omega-3 fats, you'd be recommending seed oils. So, they recommending seed oils. So, they recommending seed oils. So, they actually inadvertently actually inadvertently actually inadvertently unknowingly recommended the consumption unknowingly recommended the consumption unknowingly recommended the consumption of vegetable and seed oils, the very of vegetable and seed oils, the very of vegetable and seed oils, the very thing that he demonizes in the media. thing that he demonizes in the media. thing that he demonizes in the media. And that was also one of the I'd say one And that was also one of the I'd say one And that was also one of the I'd say one of the surprising things for me was that of the surprising things for me was that of the surprising things for me was that nowhere in the guidelines, not only did nowhere in the guidelines, not only did nowhere in the guidelines, not only did they maintain the saturated fat less they maintain the saturated fat less they maintain the saturated fat less than 10% calorie recommendation. And I than 10% calorie recommendation. And I than 10% calorie recommendation. And I think they really had to just cuz the think they really had to just cuz the think they really had to just cuz the evidence is so strong, they did not in evidence is so strong, they did not in evidence is so strong, they did not in in in any sentence at all call out seed in in any sentence at all call out seed in in any sentence at all call out seed oils and tell people recommend against oils and tell people recommend against oils and tell people recommend against their consumption because I I think that their consumption because I I think that their consumption because I I think that in those cases the evidence was just too in those cases the evidence was just too in those cases the evidence was just too strong. So what they did is they just strong. So what they did is they just strong. So what they did is they just decided to avoid it. They didn't say it decided to avoid it. They didn't say it decided to avoid it. They didn't say it was neither good nor bad. It's absent. was neither good nor bad. It's absent. was neither good nor bad. It's absent. If you control F through the entire If you control F through the entire If you control F through the entire document, seed oils or vegetable oils, document, seed oils or vegetable oils, document, seed oils or vegetable oils, you you won't see any commentary on them you you won't see any commentary on them you you won't see any commentary on them despite how much of a big deal RFK Jr. despite how much of a big deal RFK Jr. despite how much of a big deal RFK Jr. made about them in the media. I know made about them in the media. I know made about them in the media. I know that the AHA, Stanford, Harvard, various that the AHA, Stanford, Harvard, various that the AHA, Stanford, Harvard, various nutrition organizations have kind of nutrition organizations have kind of nutrition organizations have kind of come out uh on this saturated fat mixed come out uh on this saturated fat mixed come out uh on this saturated fat mixed messaging aspect of the new guidelines messaging aspect of the new guidelines messaging aspect of the new guidelines with a kind of WTF like this doesn't with a kind of WTF like this doesn't with a kind of WTF like this doesn't really make sense. And I also know that really make sense. And I also know that really make sense. And I also know that JAMAMA uh has explicitly said that the JAMAMA uh has explicitly said that the JAMAMA uh has explicitly said that the process and procedure that went you know process and procedure that went you know process and procedure that went you know into crafting these guidelines was a into crafting these guidelines was a into crafting these guidelines was a major departure from the usual evidence major departure from the usual evidence major departure from the usual evidence review process. review process. review process. >> I think the blessing here and it's it's >> I think the blessing here and it's it's >> I think the blessing here and it's it's a blessing and a curse is that 95% of a blessing and a curse is that 95% of a blessing and a curse is that 95% of Americans do not follow the guidelines. Americans do not follow the guidelines. Americans do not follow the guidelines. >> Yeah. I mean this is the crazy thing >> Yeah. I mean this is the crazy thing >> Yeah. I mean this is the crazy thing about this. There's so much ink spilled about this. There's so much ink spilled about this. There's so much ink spilled about these guidelines every time they about these guidelines every time they about these guidelines every time they drop. Uh and you know whether or not drop. Uh and you know whether or not drop. Uh and you know whether or not public health outcomes improve or public health outcomes improve or public health outcomes improve or decline uh fingers are always pointed at decline uh fingers are always pointed at decline uh fingers are always pointed at these guidelines without enough uh these guidelines without enough uh these guidelines without enough uh discourse around the fact that people discourse around the fact that people discourse around the fact that people just don't follow them fundamentally. just don't follow them fundamentally. just don't follow them fundamentally. >> Yeah. So, I mean, we can debate them all >> Yeah. So, I mean, we can debate them all >> Yeah. So, I mean, we can debate them all we want, but fundamentally we're we're we want, but fundamentally we're we're we want, but fundamentally we're we're not debating the things that really not debating the things that really not debating the things that really matter, which is what really shapes matter, which is what really shapes matter, which is what really shapes someone's diet. And, you know, yes, it's someone's diet. And, you know, yes, it's someone's diet. And, you know, yes, it's interesting and can be helpful for the interesting and can be helpful for the interesting and can be helpful for the person out there who has the resources person out there who has the resources person out there who has the resources and time and education to kind of listen and time and education to kind of listen and time and education to kind of listen to these debates and improve some of to these debates and improve some of to these debates and improve some of their diet choices. But the average their diet choices. But the average their diet choices. But the average American's diet is shaped by their American's diet is shaped by their American's diet is shaped by their environment, disparity in income, environment, disparity in income, environment, disparity in income, um these social determinants of of um these social determinants of of um these social determinants of of health. And so, you know, I always laugh health. And so, you know, I always laugh health. And so, you know, I always laugh when people point to the 1980 dietary when people point to the 1980 dietary when people point to the 1980 dietary guidelines and say, you know, the guidelines and say, you know, the guidelines and say, you know, the recommendation there was to eat less recommendation there was to eat less recommendation there was to eat less saturated fat and look at what's saturated fat and look at what's saturated fat and look at what's happened to health. happened to health. happened to health. The recommendation at the time to eat The recommendation at the time to eat The recommendation at the time to eat less saturated fat. There's nothing less saturated fat. There's nothing less saturated fat. There's nothing wrong with that recommendation. It could wrong with that recommendation. It could wrong with that recommendation. It could have been clearer and I think it should have been clearer and I think it should have been clearer and I think it should have said, "Hey, if you want to eat less have said, "Hey, if you want to eat less have said, "Hey, if you want to eat less saturated fat, which is in these foods, saturated fat, which is in these foods, saturated fat, which is in these foods, what you eat instead is important. We what you eat instead is important. We what you eat instead is important. We want you to eat, you know, these whole want you to eat, you know, these whole want you to eat, you know, these whole foods and nuts and seeds and fatty fish foods and nuts and seeds and fatty fish foods and nuts and seeds and fatty fish and legumes and whatnot." It didn't and legumes and whatnot." It didn't and legumes and whatnot." It didn't necessarily say that. But the increase necessarily say that. But the increase necessarily say that. But the increase in obesity and the increase in type 2 in obesity and the increase in type 2 in obesity and the increase in type 2 diabetes is not because they said to eat diabetes is not because they said to eat diabetes is not because they said to eat less saturated fat. It's because the less saturated fat. It's because the less saturated fat. It's because the food industry quickly jumped and said, food industry quickly jumped and said, food industry quickly jumped and said, "Okay, there's a lot there's a eat less "Okay, there's a lot there's a eat less "Okay, there's a lot there's a eat less fat message. Let's print that on the fat message. Let's print that on the fat message. Let's print that on the front of all of our foods and create front of all of our foods and create front of all of our foods and create these hyper palatable, very energy these hyper palatable, very energy these hyper palatable, very energy dense, delicious foods that are low fat dense, delicious foods that are low fat dense, delicious foods that are low fat and are convenient and are cheap and and are convenient and are cheap and and are convenient and are cheap and highly processed, good shelf life. highly processed, good shelf life. highly processed, good shelf life. >> And that's what people people ate less >> And that's what people people ate less >> And that's what people people ate less foods that contain saturated fat, but foods that contain saturated fat, but foods that contain saturated fat, but swapped it unfortunately with these very swapped it unfortunately with these very swapped it unfortunately with these very ultrarocessed, high refined carbohydrate ultrarocessed, high refined carbohydrate ultrarocessed, high refined carbohydrate foods. And the consequence of that is foods. And the consequence of that is foods. And the consequence of that is that you don't see an improvement in that you don't see an improvement in that you don't see an improvement in health. And if anything, you see health health. And if anything, you see health health. And if anything, you see health move in the direct in the direction that move in the direct in the direction that move in the direct in the direction that was not intended. So it might be fair to was not intended. So it might be fair to was not intended. So it might be fair to say that the majority of people don't say that the majority of people don't say that the majority of people don't really pay much attention to these really pay much attention to these really pay much attention to these guidelines, let alone follow them. Um, guidelines, let alone follow them. Um, guidelines, let alone follow them. Um, they are still significant and they are still significant and they are still significant and important. It's not something that we important. It's not something that we important. It's not something that we should dismiss a because they do inform should dismiss a because they do inform should dismiss a because they do inform individual decisions, but also they're individual decisions, but also they're individual decisions, but also they're critical in terms of setting policy when critical in terms of setting policy when critical in terms of setting policy when you think about school lunch programs you think about school lunch programs you think about school lunch programs and institutional you know food systems and institutional you know food systems and institutional you know food systems and you know there's a whole domino and you know there's a whole domino and you know there's a whole domino effect that um occurs from the effect that um occurs from the effect that um occurs from the establishment of these guidelines into establishment of these guidelines into establishment of these guidelines into you know food procurement systems etc. you know food procurement systems etc. you know food procurement systems etc. and you know the food that ends up on and you know the food that ends up on and you know the food that ends up on your kid's plate at lunch every day. your kid's plate at lunch every day. your kid's plate at lunch every day. >> That's right. And I also think we should >> That's right. And I also think we should >> That's right. And I also think we should emphasize that I do think if the average emphasize that I do think if the average emphasize that I do think if the average American today American today American today consuming the average American diet was consuming the average American diet was consuming the average American diet was to instead consume the diet recommended to instead consume the diet recommended to instead consume the diet recommended in the guidelines. in the guidelines. in the guidelines. >> Yeah. Or the last guidelines or the >> Yeah. Or the last guidelines or the >> Yeah. Or the last guidelines or the guidelines before that. They're all like guidelines before that. They're all like guidelines before that. They're all like going to be going to be going to be >> I think their health is going to >> I think their health is going to >> I think their health is going to improve. So improve. So improve. So >> I just want to throw that out there. And >> I just want to throw that out there. And >> I just want to throw that out there. And I think they could be better. And I I think they could be better. And I I think they could be better. And I think that what I would love to see, I think that what I would love to see, I think that what I would love to see, I think Health Canada is probably the best think Health Canada is probably the best think Health Canada is probably the best guidelines that are out there or Japan's guidelines that are out there or Japan's guidelines that are out there or Japan's or Finland, but I'm just waiting for the or Finland, but I'm just waiting for the or Finland, but I'm just waiting for the guidelines to come out and and guidelines to come out and and guidelines to come out and and specifically talk about food specifically talk about food specifically talk about food replacements. we want you to eat less of replacements. we want you to eat less of replacements. we want you to eat less of this and instead of eating that, this and instead of eating that, this and instead of eating that, explicitly state what to eat more of explicitly state what to eat more of explicitly state what to eat more of >> because the the benefit that you get >> because the the benefit that you get >> because the the benefit that you get from eating less of something is is from eating less of something is is from eating less of something is is often yes, you're reducing your exposure often yes, you're reducing your exposure often yes, you're reducing your exposure of whatever was in that food. of whatever was in that food. of whatever was in that food. >> But it's it's a summation of that plus >> But it's it's a summation of that plus >> But it's it's a summation of that plus what you're bringing into the diet what you're bringing into the diet what you're bringing into the diet because usually when we take calories because usually when we take calories because usually when we take calories out, we bring something else in. what's out, we bring something else in. what's out, we bring something else in. what's coming in and and and what nutritional coming in and and and what nutritional coming in and and and what nutritional properties are are in that affects that properties are are in that affects that properties are are in that affects that total net outcome. On the plus side, I total net outcome. On the plus side, I total net outcome. On the plus side, I would say that these new guidelines do would say that these new guidelines do would say that these new guidelines do take a step in that direction in that take a step in that direction in that take a step in that direction in that they say eat real food. You know, it's they say eat real food. You know, it's they say eat real food. You know, it's like so obvious, right? But to be like so obvious, right? But to be like so obvious, right? But to be explicit about that and to avoid quote explicit about that and to avoid quote explicit about that and to avoid quote unquote highly processed foods, I think unquote highly processed foods, I think unquote highly processed foods, I think there's some issues around the vagueness there's some issues around the vagueness there's some issues around the vagueness of that and you know how that's getting of that and you know how that's getting of that and you know how that's getting interpreted. But to call that out was interpreted. But to call that out was interpreted. But to call that out was something that previous guidelines something that previous guidelines something that previous guidelines didn't do. And I think that this set of didn't do. And I think that this set of didn't do. And I think that this set of guidelines also was very conscious of guidelines also was very conscious of guidelines also was very conscious of being uh being uh being uh uh public facing like directly uh public facing like directly uh public facing like directly communicating with the individual as communicating with the individual as communicating with the individual as opposed to this thing that the opposed to this thing that the opposed to this thing that the government comes up with to set policy government comes up with to set policy government comes up with to set policy and I think that that is a positive um and I think that that is a positive um and I think that that is a positive um distinction between distinction between distinction between this set of guidelines and past. this set of guidelines and past. this set of guidelines and past. >> Yeah, I I agree with that. But I think I >> Yeah, I I agree with that. But I think I >> Yeah, I I agree with that. But I think I mean you can't fault that their PR mean you can't fault that their PR mean you can't fault that their PR campaign. The way that they marketed campaign. The way that they marketed campaign. The way that they marketed these new guidelines is superior to these new guidelines is superior to these new guidelines is superior to previous parties. They they really were previous parties. They they really were previous parties. They they really were able to get out there on social media. able to get out there on social media. able to get out there on social media. They did a great job with their website. They did a great job with their website. They did a great job with their website. And I agree the emphasis I think on on And I agree the emphasis I think on on And I agree the emphasis I think on on real food is a big win. real food is a big win. real food is a big win. >> Here is the dilemma. When you choose >> Here is the dilemma. When you choose >> Here is the dilemma. 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But incredibly quick and easy process. But incredibly quick and easy process. But it's not just about saving money. It's it's not just about saving money. It's it's not just about saving money. It's about taking back your time and your about taking back your time and your about taking back your time and your attention. And right now, as a listener attention. And right now, as a listener attention. And right now, as a listener of this show, you can try Noble today of this show, you can try Noble today of this show, you can try Noble today for just $10. Go to for just $10. Go to for just $10. Go to noblemobile.com/rich. noblemobile.com/rich. noblemobile.com/rich. Get paid to use your phone less. One of the other differences is this uh One of the other differences is this uh emphasis on increasing protein intake. emphasis on increasing protein intake. emphasis on increasing protein intake. >> What do you make of this? And what >> What do you make of this? And what >> What do you make of this? And what exactly do the guidelines say about exactly do the guidelines say about exactly do the guidelines say about this? this? this? >> Okay, I think you know that I think >> Okay, I think you know that I think >> Okay, I think you know that I think protein's important, protein's important, protein's important, but we need to contextualize this. So, but we need to contextualize this. So, but we need to contextualize this. So, usually when people are are talking usually when people are are talking usually when people are are talking about protein, uh, the conversation is about protein, uh, the conversation is about protein, uh, the conversation is is centered around building muscle or is centered around building muscle or is centered around building muscle or trying to reduce our risk of trying to reduce our risk of trying to reduce our risk of psychopenia, losing muscle as we age. psychopenia, losing muscle as we age. psychopenia, losing muscle as we age. And particularly, I'm I'm sure you've And particularly, I'm I'm sure you've And particularly, I'm I'm sure you've seen in the last two or three years, seen in the last two or three years, seen in the last two or three years, that's really taken the podcast world by that's really taken the podcast world by that's really taken the podcast world by storm, right? It's all about muscle is storm, right? It's all about muscle is storm, right? It's all about muscle is is this metabolic organ. It's very is this metabolic organ. It's very is this metabolic organ. It's very important for functional independence as important for functional independence as important for functional independence as we age for metabolic health. And I agree we age for metabolic health. And I agree we age for metabolic health. And I agree with that. with that. with that. Where I would push back a little bit is Where I would push back a little bit is Where I would push back a little bit is that the research looking at building that the research looking at building that the research looking at building good quality muscle and maintaining good quality muscle and maintaining good quality muscle and maintaining muscle as it as it pertains to protein. muscle as it as it pertains to protein. muscle as it as it pertains to protein. It's pretty clear that when you're in It's pretty clear that when you're in It's pretty clear that when you're in the range of 1.2 g per kilogram to 1.6 the range of 1.2 g per kilogram to 1.6 the range of 1.2 g per kilogram to 1.6 six grams per kilogram. That's an six grams per kilogram. That's an six grams per kilogram. That's an optimal protein intake to support sceal optimal protein intake to support sceal optimal protein intake to support sceal muscle adaptations. Basically, to help muscle adaptations. Basically, to help muscle adaptations. Basically, to help that muscle maintain a healthy size and that muscle maintain a healthy size and that muscle maintain a healthy size and function. function. function. The average American today, where do you The average American today, where do you The average American today, where do you think their protein intake is at? think their protein intake is at? think their protein intake is at? >> I'm sure it far exceeds that. >> I'm sure it far exceeds that. >> I'm sure it far exceeds that. >> It's at about 1.2 g per kilogram. >> It's at about 1.2 g per kilogram. >> It's at about 1.2 g per kilogram. >> So, so it's right in that range. >> So, so it's right in that range. >> So, so it's right in that range. >> It's right in that range. So, so the >> It's right in that range. So, so the >> It's right in that range. So, so the question that I would throw out to all question that I would throw out to all question that I would throw out to all of us is what explains psychopenia of us is what explains psychopenia of us is what explains psychopenia today? the fact that 30% of of uh aging today? the fact that 30% of of uh aging today? the fact that 30% of of uh aging adults in America have psychopenia, adults in America have psychopenia, adults in America have psychopenia, which is a loss of muscle size and which is a loss of muscle size and which is a loss of muscle size and function, function, function, >> sedentary lifestyle. >> sedentary lifestyle. >> sedentary lifestyle. >> It's the fact that most people are not >> It's the fact that most people are not >> It's the fact that most people are not moving against resistance. The protein moving against resistance. The protein moving against resistance. The protein intake is already there, but we we're intake is already there, but we we're intake is already there, but we we're spending spending spending 95% of the oxygen is given to this this 95% of the oxygen is given to this this 95% of the oxygen is given to this this to protein when that variable is pretty to protein when that variable is pretty to protein when that variable is pretty much already taken care of. much already taken care of. much already taken care of. What's missing is that most people are What's missing is that most people are What's missing is that most people are not doing resistance training. The not doing resistance training. The not doing resistance training. The stimulus is not there. stimulus is not there. stimulus is not there. >> And there are great analysis analyses >> And there are great analysis analyses >> And there are great analysis analyses looking at this. If you just take looking at this. If you just take looking at this. If you just take sedentary people and dial up protein, sedentary people and dial up protein, sedentary people and dial up protein, even if you dial it up to like 2 g per even if you dial it up to like 2 g per even if you dial it up to like 2 g per kilogram, kilogram, kilogram, >> nothing happens to their strength or >> nothing happens to their strength or >> nothing happens to their strength or muscle. muscle. muscle. >> And whereas when you add resistance >> And whereas when you add resistance >> And whereas when you add resistance training and and it even the first hour training and and it even the first hour training and and it even the first hour or week of resistance training is where or week of resistance training is where or week of resistance training is where most of the benefit is achieved. When most of the benefit is achieved. When most of the benefit is achieved. When you add that first hour uh of resistance you add that first hour uh of resistance you add that first hour uh of resistance training, now you start to see as you training, now you start to see as you training, now you start to see as you increase protein up to about 1.5 g per increase protein up to about 1.5 g per increase protein up to about 1.5 g per kilogram, you see significant increases kilogram, you see significant increases kilogram, you see significant increases in strength. But most of that strength in strength. But most of that strength in strength. But most of that strength is actually achieved by 1.2 g per is actually achieved by 1.2 g per is actually achieved by 1.2 g per kilogram. Going from 1.2 to 1.5, we're kilogram. Going from 1.2 to 1.5, we're kilogram. Going from 1.2 to 1.5, we're squeezing the last drips of water out of squeezing the last drips of water out of squeezing the last drips of water out of the towel. Right? So I think back to the towel. Right? So I think back to the towel. Right? So I think back to your question about the emphasis on your question about the emphasis on your question about the emphasis on protein in the guidelines, protein in the guidelines, protein in the guidelines, I think it's good for people to be I think it's good for people to be I think it's good for people to be protein aware particularly as people are protein aware particularly as people are protein aware particularly as people are getting older where often there is less getting older where often there is less getting older where often there is less appetite. That's the population where appetite. That's the population where appetite. That's the population where protein intake can start to fall below 1 protein intake can start to fall below 1 protein intake can start to fall below 1 g per kilogram. I think that's a bit of g per kilogram. I think that's a bit of g per kilogram. I think that's a bit of a separate discussion. Uh, I think that a separate discussion. Uh, I think that a separate discussion. Uh, I think that the that the guidelines the that the guidelines the that the guidelines should have had a some emphasis on should have had a some emphasis on should have had a some emphasis on protein, protein, protein, more so on the source, more so on the source, more so on the source, getting people to choose plant protein, getting people to choose plant protein, getting people to choose plant protein, getting people to choose fatty fish over getting people to choose fatty fish over getting people to choose fatty fish over red meat and and poultry, the two main red meat and and poultry, the two main red meat and and poultry, the two main sources of of animal protein in the in sources of of animal protein in the in sources of of animal protein in the in the American diet. And in doing so, the American diet. And in doing so, the American diet. And in doing so, people will would have still continued people will would have still continued people will would have still continued to to consume enough protein, but at the to to consume enough protein, but at the to to consume enough protein, but at the same time reducing saturated fat, same time reducing saturated fat, same time reducing saturated fat, increasing healthy unsaturated fats, increasing healthy unsaturated fats, increasing healthy unsaturated fats, increasing fiber consumption. So, we're increasing fiber consumption. So, we're increasing fiber consumption. So, we're improving diet quality. And arguably, a improving diet quality. And arguably, a improving diet quality. And arguably, a message should have gone out saying that message should have gone out saying that message should have gone out saying that in order to get this protein to work, in order to get this protein to work, in order to get this protein to work, you need to move your body. you need to move your body. you need to move your body. >> Yeah. I think on the plus side we can >> Yeah. I think on the plus side we can >> Yeah. I think on the plus side we can say that perhaps protein plays somewhat say that perhaps protein plays somewhat say that perhaps protein plays somewhat of a a role. You tell me if it's of a a role. You tell me if it's of a a role. You tell me if it's significant or not in terms of satiety. significant or not in terms of satiety. significant or not in terms of satiety. Like if we are emphasizing more protein Like if we are emphasizing more protein Like if we are emphasizing more protein in our diet that to your point of like in our diet that to your point of like in our diet that to your point of like what are we not eating and what are we what are we not eating and what are we what are we not eating and what are we replacing it with that's crowding out replacing it with that's crowding out replacing it with that's crowding out our cravings for less healthy options. our cravings for less healthy options. our cravings for less healthy options. Um, but at the same time, protein Um, but at the same time, protein Um, but at the same time, protein deficiency really isn't a problem. We h deficiency really isn't a problem. We h deficiency really isn't a problem. We h we're under this impression in this we're under this impression in this we're under this impression in this culture that we're protein deficient. culture that we're protein deficient. culture that we're protein deficient. And we're just really not. And we're just really not. And we're just really not. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um, and that's a very intractable, >> Um, and that's a very intractable, >> Um, and that's a very intractable, seemingly intractable kind of idea, uh, seemingly intractable kind of idea, uh, seemingly intractable kind of idea, uh, that everybody needs to be eating more that everybody needs to be eating more that everybody needs to be eating more protein. And the concerning aspect of protein. And the concerning aspect of protein. And the concerning aspect of these new guidelines is that it all aims these new guidelines is that it all aims these new guidelines is that it all aims towards towards towards um these animal proteins with an um these animal proteins with an um these animal proteins with an emphasis on red meat, which emphasis on red meat, which emphasis on red meat, which if you talk to people like Christopher if you talk to people like Christopher if you talk to people like Christopher Gardner or these research scientists Gardner or these research scientists Gardner or these research scientists who've been looking at this intently for who've been looking at this intently for who've been looking at this intently for decades, decades, decades, there seems to be scientific consensus there seems to be scientific consensus there seems to be scientific consensus that uh you know, elevating your red that uh you know, elevating your red that uh you know, elevating your red meat intake uh or alternatively your meat intake uh or alternatively your meat intake uh or alternatively your processed meat consumption um that's a processed meat consumption um that's a processed meat consumption um that's a separate issue I suppose uh is going to separate issue I suppose uh is going to separate issue I suppose uh is going to worsen long-term outcomes especially in worsen long-term outcomes especially in worsen long-term outcomes especially in terms of you know things like cancer and terms of you know things like cancer and terms of you know things like cancer and and cardiovascular disease and cardiovascular disease and cardiovascular disease >> and the dose matters so I think >> and the dose matters so I think >> and the dose matters so I think sometimes that gets a little bit lost in sometimes that gets a little bit lost in sometimes that gets a little bit lost in these conversations these conversations these conversations >> but if you just glance at these >> but if you just glance at these >> but if you just glance at these guidelines and you're like oh increase guidelines and you're like oh increase guidelines and you're like oh increase your protein oh animal-based proteins I your protein oh animal-based proteins I your protein oh animal-based proteins I need to be eating more meat looks like need to be eating more meat looks like need to be eating more meat looks like red meat's not a problem I'm going to red meat's not a problem I'm going to red meat's not a problem I'm going to eat more of that and that's at the very eat more of that and that's at the very eat more of that and that's at the very top of this graphic. Is that not like a top of this graphic. Is that not like a top of this graphic. Is that not like a common uh interpretation that the common uh interpretation that the common uh interpretation that the average consumer who isn't like steeped average consumer who isn't like steeped average consumer who isn't like steeped in the science like someone like in the science like someone like in the science like someone like yourself is going to conclude from that? yourself is going to conclude from that? yourself is going to conclude from that? >> I think most people will double down on >> I think most people will double down on >> I think most people will double down on red meat based on what those new red meat based on what those new red meat based on what those new guidelines look like if it's a food that guidelines look like if it's a food that guidelines look like if it's a food that they already enjoy. And to your point they already enjoy. And to your point they already enjoy. And to your point about deficiencies, I would have liked about deficiencies, I would have liked about deficiencies, I would have liked to have seen more commentary around the to have seen more commentary around the to have seen more commentary around the fact that 95% of Americans get nowhere fact that 95% of Americans get nowhere fact that 95% of Americans get nowhere near the fiber re recommendations. Mhm. near the fiber re recommendations. Mhm. near the fiber re recommendations. Mhm. >> That really should have been the >> That really should have been the >> That really should have been the nutrient of focus, not not protein. And nutrient of focus, not not protein. And nutrient of focus, not not protein. And that's why I like the recommendation of that's why I like the recommendation of that's why I like the recommendation of consuming more plant protein consuming more plant protein consuming more plant protein where possible because it fixes the where possible because it fixes the where possible because it fixes the fiber thing at the same time and reduces fiber thing at the same time and reduces fiber thing at the same time and reduces saturated fat. So, you kind of get that saturated fat. So, you kind of get that saturated fat. So, you kind of get that overall diet quality uh diet quality overall diet quality uh diet quality overall diet quality uh diet quality improvement. I I do think that the the improvement. I I do think that the the improvement. I I do think that the the definition of quality protein, definition of quality protein, definition of quality protein, maybe we can chat about that because I I maybe we can chat about that because I I maybe we can chat about that because I I feel like so much of the conversation feel like so much of the conversation feel like so much of the conversation has been over the last 2 or 3 years with has been over the last 2 or 3 years with has been over the last 2 or 3 years with regards to psychopenia has really regards to psychopenia has really regards to psychopenia has really centered on animal protein being centered on animal protein being centered on animal protein being superior quality. So, I think people may superior quality. So, I think people may superior quality. So, I think people may be confused because they're they've been be confused because they're they've been be confused because they're they've been led to believe that somehow the animal led to believe that somehow the animal led to believe that somehow the animal source of protein is better for source of protein is better for source of protein is better for protecting their muscle as they age. protecting their muscle as they age. protecting their muscle as they age. Would you agree with that? Would you agree with that? Would you agree with that? >> I would agree that that is the the the >> I would agree that that is the the the >> I would agree that that is the the the common assumption. Yeah, common assumption. Yeah, common assumption. Yeah, >> that's the common assumption and it's >> that's the common assumption and it's >> that's the common assumption and it's often explained often explained often explained that the amino acids which are what make that the amino acids which are what make that the amino acids which are what make up protein are superior ratios in animal up protein are superior ratios in animal up protein are superior ratios in animal protein or more complete that it's more protein or more complete that it's more protein or more complete that it's more digestible these are the things that I digestible these are the things that I digestible these are the things that I think people will think people will think people will >> bioavailable digestible etc across the >> bioavailable digestible etc across the >> bioavailable digestible etc across the board there is this presumption or board there is this presumption or board there is this presumption or assumption that if you're getting your assumption that if you're getting your assumption that if you're getting your protein from an animal source it is protein from an animal source it is protein from an animal source it is going to be better than the best plant going to be better than the best plant going to be better than the best plant version of that full stop and the version of that full stop and the version of that full stop and the inquiry kind of like stops there. inquiry kind of like stops there. inquiry kind of like stops there. >> Yeah. And then not only is is the amino >> Yeah. And then not only is is the amino >> Yeah. And then not only is is the amino acid uh kind of makeup superior or more acid uh kind of makeup superior or more acid uh kind of makeup superior or more complete, but then plant protein complete, but then plant protein complete, but then plant protein contains fiber and other anti-nutrients contains fiber and other anti-nutrients contains fiber and other anti-nutrients which blocks absorption which blocks absorption which blocks absorption >> anti-nutrient argument. Yeah. And so I >> anti-nutrient argument. Yeah. And so I >> anti-nutrient argument. Yeah. And so I understand how the average person is understand how the average person is understand how the average person is kind of left thinking, well, kind of left thinking, well, kind of left thinking, well, if I'm thinking about quality protein, if I'm thinking about quality protein, if I'm thinking about quality protein, then the animal protein sounds better then the animal protein sounds better then the animal protein sounds better because it sounds like my body's going because it sounds like my body's going because it sounds like my body's going to be able to absorb more of it and use to be able to absorb more of it and use to be able to absorb more of it and use it to build muscle and I'm going to the it to build muscle and I'm going to the it to build muscle and I'm going to the gym. I don't want to waste my time. gym. I don't want to waste my time. gym. I don't want to waste my time. >> And I look at these guidelines and >> And I look at these guidelines and >> And I look at these guidelines and there's all kinds of like animal there's all kinds of like animal there's all kinds of like animal proteins in there. So that's what that's proteins in there. So that's what that's proteins in there. So that's what that's what I'm going to do. what I'm going to do. what I'm going to do. >> And so I actually empathize and I think >> And so I actually empathize and I think >> And so I actually empathize and I think that that is a logical kind of place to that that is a logical kind of place to that that is a logical kind of place to land when you hear all of that land when you hear all of that land when you hear all of that information. But what I'd say is that information. But what I'd say is that information. But what I'd say is that that's that's an incomplete story that's that's an incomplete story that's that's an incomplete story because we have to we have to test that because we have to we have to test that because we have to we have to test that hypothesis. When you feed people animal hypothesis. When you feed people animal hypothesis. When you feed people animal protein in a controlled study and you protein in a controlled study and you protein in a controlled study and you feed people plant protein and you expose feed people plant protein and you expose feed people plant protein and you expose them to the same type of exercise and them to the same type of exercise and them to the same type of exercise and you measure muscle protein synthesis, so you measure muscle protein synthesis, so you measure muscle protein synthesis, so you can actually get into the cell and you can actually get into the cell and you can actually get into the cell and take a biopsy and look at the synthesis take a biopsy and look at the synthesis take a biopsy and look at the synthesis or you do a study that goes longer and or you do a study that goes longer and or you do a study that goes longer and you measure changes in muscle size you measure changes in muscle size you measure changes in muscle size hypertrophy or even better changes in hypertrophy or even better changes in hypertrophy or even better changes in strength because that's really what we strength because that's really what we strength because that's really what we care about. care about. care about. This is when that idea of animal protein This is when that idea of animal protein This is when that idea of animal protein being better quality, you you start you being better quality, you you start you being better quality, you you start you have to really question it. And I've have to really question it. And I've have to really question it. And I've gone through this evidence with you in gone through this evidence with you in gone through this evidence with you in previous episodes, so we don't have to previous episodes, so we don't have to previous episodes, so we don't have to go through all of it. But what I'll what go through all of it. But what I'll what go through all of it. But what I'll what I'll say is that, you know, researchers I'll say is that, you know, researchers I'll say is that, you know, researchers like Stuart Phillips, like Stuart Phillips, like Stuart Phillips, who is, you know, one of the main who is, you know, one of the main who is, you know, one of the main protein researchers in the world, Luke protein researchers in the world, Luke protein researchers in the world, Luke Vanlon, I've had both on my show several Vanlon, I've had both on my show several Vanlon, I've had both on my show several times. The old kind of way of thinking times. The old kind of way of thinking times. The old kind of way of thinking about protein was that animal protein is about protein was that animal protein is about protein was that animal protein is more anabolic. Okay, before they had run more anabolic. Okay, before they had run more anabolic. Okay, before they had run enough studies to test this. And then enough studies to test this. And then enough studies to test this. And then over time, there's been these clinical over time, there's been these clinical over time, there's been these clinical trials, first looking at healthy adults, trials, first looking at healthy adults, trials, first looking at healthy adults, you know, people aged in their 30s and you know, people aged in their 30s and you know, people aged in their 30s and 40s, and putting one group on a 40s, and putting one group on a 40s, and putting one group on a completely plant-based diet where 100% completely plant-based diet where 100% completely plant-based diet where 100% of the proteins coming from plants, and of the proteins coming from plants, and of the proteins coming from plants, and the other group on an omnivorous diet, the other group on an omnivorous diet, the other group on an omnivorous diet, representative of American style diet in representative of American style diet in representative of American style diet in terms of where proteins coming from, and terms of where proteins coming from, and terms of where proteins coming from, and putting them in resistance training, putting them in resistance training, putting them in resistance training, following them for 10 weeks or 12 weeks, following them for 10 weeks or 12 weeks, following them for 10 weeks or 12 weeks, and tracking those things that I and tracking those things that I and tracking those things that I mentioned, and we don't see any mentioned, and we don't see any mentioned, and we don't see any significant differences. in terms of significant differences. in terms of significant differences. in terms of those outcomes of muscle size and muscle those outcomes of muscle size and muscle those outcomes of muscle size and muscle strength. strength. strength. So this idea of bioavailability and So this idea of bioavailability and So this idea of bioavailability and amino acid makeup, it's not affecting amino acid makeup, it's not affecting amino acid makeup, it's not affecting those outcomes that we care about. those outcomes that we care about. those outcomes that we care about. >> There has been this kind of secondary >> There has been this kind of secondary >> There has been this kind of secondary question to that of okay, well those are question to that of okay, well those are question to that of okay, well those are healthy adults, they're in their 30s and healthy adults, they're in their 30s and healthy adults, they're in their 30s and 40s, 40s, 40s, >> but what about an older population of >> but what about an older population of >> but what about an older population of people who have some age related muscle people who have some age related muscle people who have some age related muscle changes? And maybe you've heard of changes? And maybe you've heard of changes? And maybe you've heard of anabolic resistance. So that is this anabolic resistance. So that is this anabolic resistance. So that is this idea that as we get older, our muscle is idea that as we get older, our muscle is idea that as we get older, our muscle is less responsive to resistance training less responsive to resistance training less responsive to resistance training and to protein, less sensitive, and that and to protein, less sensitive, and that and to protein, less sensitive, and that maybe you need more protein or high maybe you need more protein or high maybe you need more protein or high quality protein or more resistance quality protein or more resistance quality protein or more resistance training to attenuate the the loss as training to attenuate the the loss as training to attenuate the the loss as you age. And so that was a question that you age. And so that was a question that you age. And so that was a question that was outstanding. And then Luke Vanlon, was outstanding. And then Luke Vanlon, was outstanding. And then Luke Vanlon, his group, he's based in the his group, he's based in the his group, he's based in the Netherlands. Great guy. You should have Netherlands. Great guy. You should have Netherlands. Great guy. You should have him on the show. him on the show. him on the show. >> I will. >> I will. >> I will. >> Yeah, I had him on last year. >> Yeah, I had him on last year. >> Yeah, I had him on last year. >> Anybody you recommend having? >> Anybody you recommend having? >> Anybody you recommend having? >> He's he is I would say is considered >> He's he is I would say is considered >> He's he is I would say is considered probably the the top protein researcher probably the the top protein researcher probably the the top protein researcher out there, you know, top top five. And out there, you know, top top five. And out there, you know, top top five. And they were he was interested in looking they were he was interested in looking they were he was interested in looking at muscle protein synthesis, at muscle protein synthesis, at muscle protein synthesis, looking at animal protein versus plant looking at animal protein versus plant looking at animal protein versus plant protein. And they did it in a single protein. And they did it in a single protein. And they did it in a single meal. and they looked at a meal that was meal. and they looked at a meal that was meal. and they looked at a meal that was rich in beef and then a plant-based rich in beef and then a plant-based rich in beef and then a plant-based meal. And they looked at they were doing meal. And they looked at they were doing meal. And they looked at they were doing elderly subjects. So these were elderly subjects. So these were elderly subjects. So these were seven-year-olds. seven-year-olds. seven-year-olds. And in the single meal, the animal And in the single meal, the animal And in the single meal, the animal protein led to more muscle protein protein led to more muscle protein protein led to more muscle protein synthesis in the first couple of hours. synthesis in the first couple of hours. synthesis in the first couple of hours. And so their hypothesis was, okay, we And so their hypothesis was, okay, we And so their hypothesis was, okay, we want to measure this over a 10-day want to measure this over a 10-day want to measure this over a 10-day period and look at daily muscle protein period and look at daily muscle protein period and look at daily muscle protein synthesis, and now we want to look at a synthesis, and now we want to look at a synthesis, and now we want to look at a omnivorous diet and a completely vegan omnivorous diet and a completely vegan omnivorous diet and a completely vegan diet. And so they ran that study and it diet. And so they ran that study and it diet. And so they ran that study and it was a crossover study. So every was a crossover study. So every was a crossover study. So every participant got to do both stud both participant got to do both stud both participant got to do both stud both diets in separate orders diets in separate orders diets in separate orders >> which means you act as your own control. >> which means you act as your own control. >> which means you act as your own control. So this is considered a very high So this is considered a very high So this is considered a very high quality trial. quality trial. quality trial. >> And they they found no significant >> And they they found no significant >> And they they found no significant differences in muscle protein synthesis. differences in muscle protein synthesis. differences in muscle protein synthesis. So what happened to the person who got So what happened to the person who got So what happened to the person who got the sort of additional stimulus through the sort of additional stimulus through the sort of additional stimulus through the animal protein initially in the the animal protein initially in the the animal protein initially in the hours subsequent did that like even out hours subsequent did that like even out hours subsequent did that like even out over time? over time? over time? >> Yeah. So, one of, and this kind of >> Yeah. So, one of, and this kind of >> Yeah. So, one of, and this kind of brings into question all historical brings into question all historical brings into question all historical studies that have looked at like a 2hour studies that have looked at like a 2hour studies that have looked at like a 2hour window of muscle protein synthesis window of muscle protein synthesis window of muscle protein synthesis because it might be that fiber and other because it might be that fiber and other because it might be that fiber and other components in plant protein delays the components in plant protein delays the components in plant protein delays the the absorption of of amino acids, but the absorption of of amino acids, but the absorption of of amino acids, but that doesn't result in less muscle that doesn't result in less muscle that doesn't result in less muscle protein synthesis uh over time if you if protein synthesis uh over time if you if protein synthesis uh over time if you if you follow that signal for longer. M you follow that signal for longer. M you follow that signal for longer. M >> so the area under the curve is seems to >> so the area under the curve is seems to >> so the area under the curve is seems to be just as big but it's a different be just as big but it's a different be just as big but it's a different curve instead of it just going up and curve instead of it just going up and curve instead of it just going up and down quickly it's more of a delayed cur down quickly it's more of a delayed cur down quickly it's more of a delayed cur curve that stays delayed anabolic curve that stays delayed anabolic curve that stays delayed anabolic response response response >> right and so they that's why they were >> right and so they that's why they were >> right and so they that's why they were interested in looking at the daily the interested in looking at the daily the interested in looking at the daily the total 24-hour window muscle protein total 24-hour window muscle protein total 24-hour window muscle protein synthesis and that's where they didn't synthesis and that's where they didn't synthesis and that's where they didn't see any significant difference and see any significant difference and see any significant difference and then then then naturally they were interested in okay naturally they were interested in okay naturally they were interested in okay well That's 10 days and that's looking well That's 10 days and that's looking well That's 10 days and that's looking at a biomarker of of muscle protein at a biomarker of of muscle protein at a biomarker of of muscle protein synthesis. synthesis. synthesis. Why don't we be the first lab in the Why don't we be the first lab in the Why don't we be the first lab in the world to to take this study further with world to to take this study further with world to to take this study further with these seven-year-olds and let's look at these seven-year-olds and let's look at these seven-year-olds and let's look at changes in muscle size and in uh changes in muscle size and in uh changes in muscle size and in uh strength. And this is the study we were strength. And this is the study we were strength. And this is the study we were waiting for. waiting for. waiting for. And And And so they that first study important to so they that first study important to so they that first study important to note that they they fed people all the note that they they fed people all the note that they they fed people all the meals. It was like a metabolic ward meals. It was like a metabolic ward meals. It was like a metabolic ward almost provided all the food almost provided all the food almost provided all the food >> just controlled all the variables. >> just controlled all the variables. >> just controlled all the variables. >> And so the omnivorous diet and the vegan >> And so the omnivorous diet and the vegan >> And so the omnivorous diet and the vegan diet 1.1 g of protein per kilogram. diet 1.1 g of protein per kilogram. diet 1.1 g of protein per kilogram. That's the intake they looked at. And That's the intake they looked at. And That's the intake they looked at. And why did they look at that? Because they why did they look at that? Because they why did they look at that? Because they wanted to look at a real world intake. wanted to look at a real world intake. wanted to look at a real world intake. Back to our what we were saying earlier. Back to our what we were saying earlier. Back to our what we were saying earlier. That's pretty much where people are at. That's pretty much where people are at. That's pretty much where people are at. And And And in the real living study where they in the real living study where they in the real living study where they wanted to carry it out over I believe 10 wanted to carry it out over I believe 10 wanted to carry it out over I believe 10 or 12 weeks or 12 weeks or 12 weeks and this study I was on I was emailing and this study I was on I was emailing and this study I was on I was emailing Luke Vanlin this morning has been Luke Vanlin this morning has been Luke Vanlin this morning has been accepted for for being published. It's accepted for for being published. It's accepted for for being published. It's it's actually not out as we record this it's actually not out as we record this it's actually not out as we record this right now. So I've had I've had the the right now. So I've had I've had the the right now. So I've had I've had the the uh ability to kind of look through this uh ability to kind of look through this uh ability to kind of look through this study beforehand. So this will be new study beforehand. So this will be new study beforehand. So this will be new for some people that are listening. But for some people that are listening. But for some people that are listening. But they what what they found was that when they what what they found was that when they what what they found was that when when it was a real living experiment and when it was a real living experiment and when it was a real living experiment and they had people on the vegan diet, these they had people on the vegan diet, these they had people on the vegan diet, these seven-year-olds, what do you think seven-year-olds, what do you think seven-year-olds, what do you think happened to their protein intake? happened to their protein intake? happened to their protein intake? >> I don't know. >> I don't know. >> I don't know. >> It dropped. >> It dropped. >> It dropped. >> What do you mean it dropped? >> What do you mean it dropped? >> What do you mean it dropped? >> The the vegan diet >> The the vegan diet >> The the vegan diet was more filling. was more filling. was more filling. People reported being fuller after People reported being fuller after People reported being fuller after meals. They ate less calories and less meals. They ate less calories and less meals. They ate less calories and less total protein total protein total protein which is a really good thing in a which is a really good thing in a which is a really good thing in a country where people are consuming too country where people are consuming too country where people are consuming too many calories. It's actually a a many calories. It's actually a a many calories. It's actually a a positive thing for like cardio metabolic positive thing for like cardio metabolic positive thing for like cardio metabolic >> because all of the fiber and you know >> because all of the fiber and you know >> because all of the fiber and you know everything else that comes packed around everything else that comes packed around everything else that comes packed around the protein source the protein source the protein source >> but it seemed to uh reduce muscle >> but it seemed to uh reduce muscle >> but it seemed to uh reduce muscle protein synthesis. Now they've gone gone protein synthesis. Now they've gone gone protein synthesis. Now they've gone gone back and looked at this and this will be back and looked at this and this will be back and looked at this and this will be in the paper that when they added in the paper that when they added in the paper that when they added resistance training to it resistance training to it resistance training to it even though that the the vegan group even though that the the vegan group even though that the the vegan group were consuming less protein muscle size were consuming less protein muscle size were consuming less protein muscle size and strength was no different. Meaning and strength was no different. Meaning and strength was no different. Meaning the conclusion that you draw from that the conclusion that you draw from that the conclusion that you draw from that is that it's much more about the is that it's much more about the is that it's much more about the resistance training than it is about a resistance training than it is about a resistance training than it is about a specific specific specific amount of protein intake. amount of protein intake. amount of protein intake. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Let alone the source of that protein. >> Let alone the source of that protein. >> Let alone the source of that protein. >> Yeah. And and what I would say is if >> Yeah. And and what I would say is if >> Yeah. And and what I would say is if you're talking about an elderly you're talking about an elderly you're talking about an elderly population that's not training, population that's not training, population that's not training, then if they're go if they're not then if they're go if they're not then if they're go if they're not training and they just start eating a training and they just start eating a training and they just start eating a vegan diet and they're not thinking vegan diet and they're not thinking vegan diet and they're not thinking about their protein intake, about their protein intake, about their protein intake, >> not >> not >> not >> might not be a good thing. >> might not be a good thing. >> might not be a good thing. >> Not good. And that study is not even >> Not good. And that study is not even >> Not good. And that study is not even measuring bone density. measuring bone density. measuring bone density. >> And we know that I would say I would say >> And we know that I would say I would say >> And we know that I would say I would say one of the limitations of a of a vegan one of the limitations of a of a vegan one of the limitations of a of a vegan diet. I think all diets have diet. I think all diets have diet. I think all diets have limitations. If you look in the limitations. If you look in the limitations. If you look in the literature um big benefits for like literature um big benefits for like literature um big benefits for like cardioabolic health, but often there are cardioabolic health, but often there are cardioabolic health, but often there are these studies that show increased uh these studies that show increased uh these studies that show increased uh risk of fracture. So that's not even risk of fracture. So that's not even risk of fracture. So that's not even measured in this study, but I would say measured in this study, but I would say measured in this study, but I would say that that that if you were 70 plus, you wouldn't want if you were 70 plus, you wouldn't want if you were 70 plus, you wouldn't want to just kind of blindly follow a vegan to just kind of blindly follow a vegan to just kind of blindly follow a vegan diet without being aware of protein and diet without being aware of protein and diet without being aware of protein and not doing resistance training. not doing resistance training. not doing resistance training. >> I think make sure resistance training is >> I think make sure resistance training is >> I think make sure resistance training is in play if you can in whatever way that in play if you can in whatever way that in play if you can in whatever way that looks like. And then having some looks like. And then having some looks like. And then having some intentionality on protein intake, I intentionality on protein intake, I intentionality on protein intake, I think, is important, particularly as we think, is important, particularly as we think, is important, particularly as we age, if if we're noticing that we're age, if if we're noticing that we're age, if if we're noticing that we're eating less overall food volume. But eating less overall food volume. But eating less overall food volume. But setting aside the cohort of the setting aside the cohort of the setting aside the cohort of the elder person 70 and above and just elder person 70 and above and just elder person 70 and above and just looking at the average maybe middle-aged looking at the average maybe middle-aged looking at the average maybe middle-aged American or even younger Americans or American or even younger Americans or American or even younger Americans or people across the world. I mean we're people across the world. I mean we're people across the world. I mean we're talking we're talking to everybody here. talking we're talking to everybody here. talking we're talking to everybody here. Um the TLDDR here is this overemphasis Um the TLDDR here is this overemphasis Um the TLDDR here is this overemphasis on animalbased proteins is misplaced on animalbased proteins is misplaced on animalbased proteins is misplaced because the evidence um pretty strongly because the evidence um pretty strongly because the evidence um pretty strongly suggests that there isn't a difference suggests that there isn't a difference suggests that there isn't a difference in terms of uh the anabolic effects of in terms of uh the anabolic effects of in terms of uh the anabolic effects of protein protein protein uh based upon whether it's derived from uh based upon whether it's derived from uh based upon whether it's derived from an animal source or a plant source. an animal source or a plant source. an animal source or a plant source. >> Right? But with the the plant source and >> Right? But with the the plant source and >> Right? But with the the plant source and this comes back to what is our this comes back to what is our this comes back to what is our definition of quality. I think our definition of quality. I think our definition of quality. I think our definition of quality has to be muscle definition of quality has to be muscle definition of quality has to be muscle related outcomes but also chronic related outcomes but also chronic related outcomes but also chronic disease health span outcomes. Right? One disease health span outcomes. Right? One disease health span outcomes. Right? One is is lifestyle disease promoting is is lifestyle disease promoting is is lifestyle disease promoting because it has a lot of saturated fat because it has a lot of saturated fat because it has a lot of saturated fat and not for nothing perhaps hormones and and not for nothing perhaps hormones and and not for nothing perhaps hormones and all these other things that come from all these other things that come from all these other things that come from animal agriculture. Whereas the plant animal agriculture. Whereas the plant animal agriculture. Whereas the plant version uh is not only lacking those version uh is not only lacking those version uh is not only lacking those negatives but has all these other um negatives but has all these other um negatives but has all these other um beneficial health benefiting aspects to beneficial health benefiting aspects to beneficial health benefiting aspects to it, the fiber, the you know the kind of it, the fiber, the you know the kind of it, the fiber, the you know the kind of micronutrients, polyphenols, etc. micronutrients, polyphenols, etc. micronutrients, polyphenols, etc. >> Right? So you you can you can optimize >> Right? So you you can you can optimize >> Right? So you you can you can optimize for your sceal muscle and your bone by for your sceal muscle and your bone by for your sceal muscle and your bone by making sure you're eating enough total making sure you're eating enough total making sure you're eating enough total protein. But then by choosing more plant protein. But then by choosing more plant protein. But then by choosing more plant protein, you are also optimizing protein, you are also optimizing protein, you are also optimizing cardioabolic risk factors like APOB, cardioabolic risk factors like APOB, cardioabolic risk factors like APOB, blood pressure, blood glucose control, blood pressure, blood glucose control, blood pressure, blood glucose control, all of these things that predict all of these things that predict all of these things that predict someone's risk of having a heart attack someone's risk of having a heart attack someone's risk of having a heart attack or having a stroke or having a stroke or having a stroke >> or developing diabetes, developing fatty >> or developing diabetes, developing fatty >> or developing diabetes, developing fatty liver disease. So, um I think just liver disease. So, um I think just liver disease. So, um I think just having a bit more of a holistic having a bit more of a holistic having a bit more of a holistic definition of what a quality protein is definition of what a quality protein is definition of what a quality protein is would be really helpful right now. would be really helpful right now. would be really helpful right now. For me, historically, a car has always For me, historically, a car has always For me, historically, a car has always just been a way to get around. But I just been a way to get around. But I just been a way to get around. 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Rivian gives you both, so you can adventure without both, so you can adventure without both, so you can adventure without compromise. The other big distinction between The other big distinction between previous guidelines and this one is the previous guidelines and this one is the previous guidelines and this one is the uh emphasis on full fat. Uh the old uh emphasis on full fat. Uh the old uh emphasis on full fat. Uh the old guidelines guidelines guidelines uh many many previous guidelines um were uh many many previous guidelines um were uh many many previous guidelines um were emphasizing low fat or fat-free uh but emphasizing low fat or fat-free uh but emphasizing low fat or fat-free uh but we have this full fat diet uh aspect to we have this full fat diet uh aspect to we have this full fat diet uh aspect to these guidelines. So what do you make of these guidelines. So what do you make of these guidelines. So what do you make of that? what motivated that? What is the, that? what motivated that? What is the, that? what motivated that? What is the, you know, kind of charitable you know, kind of charitable you know, kind of charitable interpretation of that? And where should interpretation of that? And where should interpretation of that? And where should we not be confused? Charitable we not be confused? Charitable we not be confused? Charitable interpretation is that interpretation is that interpretation is that if if you're in a school and a kid's if if you're in a school and a kid's if if you're in a school and a kid's getting full fat milk or low fat, getting full fat milk or low fat, getting full fat milk or low fat, low-fat milk is usually pretty watery. low-fat milk is usually pretty watery. low-fat milk is usually pretty watery. So, what do they do? They flavor it and So, what do they do? They flavor it and So, what do they do? They flavor it and add all sorts of sugars and it's the add all sorts of sugars and it's the add all sorts of sugars and it's the flavored milk. Mhm. So the charitable flavored milk. Mhm. So the charitable flavored milk. Mhm. So the charitable interpretation is that they are making interpretation is that they are making interpretation is that they are making an improvement upon flavored milk an improvement upon flavored milk an improvement upon flavored milk products by recommending the consumption products by recommending the consumption products by recommending the consumption of full fat dairy. Um of full fat dairy. Um of full fat dairy. Um when you look at the evidence, and we've when you look at the evidence, and we've when you look at the evidence, and we've been through this before, you always been through this before, you always been through this before, you always have to ask compared to what have to ask compared to what have to ask compared to what because you can make any food food group because you can make any food food group because you can make any food food group look good or bad depending on what you look good or bad depending on what you look good or bad depending on what you compare it to. And I would say full fat compare it to. And I would say full fat compare it to. And I would say full fat dairy is is one of those confusing full dairy is is one of those confusing full dairy is is one of those confusing full food groups. food groups. food groups. Uh it depends which what type of dairy Uh it depends which what type of dairy Uh it depends which what type of dairy we're talking about. Are we talking we're talking about. Are we talking we're talking about. Are we talking about butter or cheese or yogurt or about butter or cheese or yogurt or about butter or cheese or yogurt or milk? Uh but if you compare cheese to milk? Uh but if you compare cheese to milk? Uh but if you compare cheese to butter, well, I can sit here and make butter, well, I can sit here and make butter, well, I can sit here and make the argument that cheese lowers the argument that cheese lowers the argument that cheese lowers cholesterol. cholesterol. cholesterol. >> It improves cholesterol. There's studies >> It improves cholesterol. There's studies >> It improves cholesterol. There's studies showing that. M and but what I'd be showing that. M and but what I'd be showing that. M and but what I'd be leaving out is that if I compared cheese leaving out is that if I compared cheese leaving out is that if I compared cheese to nuts and seeds and sources of to nuts and seeds and sources of to nuts and seeds and sources of unsaturated fats, cheese significantly unsaturated fats, cheese significantly unsaturated fats, cheese significantly increases cholesterol. increases cholesterol. increases cholesterol. So, um I I think the the overall So, um I I think the the overall So, um I I think the the overall recommendation for full fat dairy, I recommendation for full fat dairy, I recommendation for full fat dairy, I think that what I wish was in there was think that what I wish was in there was think that what I wish was in there was an acknowledgement that a lot of people an acknowledgement that a lot of people an acknowledgement that a lot of people are lactose intolerant. It wasn't in are lactose intolerant. It wasn't in are lactose intolerant. It wasn't in there. there. there. um and a stronger emphasis on when um and a stronger emphasis on when um and a stronger emphasis on when you're choosing plant-based you're choosing plant-based you're choosing plant-based alternatives, what to look for alternatives, what to look for alternatives, what to look for >> because I do think that from a a >> because I do think that from a a >> because I do think that from a a plant-based alternative, they're also plant-based alternative, they're also plant-based alternative, they're also there there's such a wide range of there there's such a wide range of there there's such a wide range of choices and not all of them are a good choices and not all of them are a good choices and not all of them are a good substitute for for dairy. Some of them substitute for for dairy. Some of them substitute for for dairy. Some of them are very low in protein. They don't are very low in protein. They don't are very low in protein. They don't contain B12 or vitamin D or iodine. And contain B12 or vitamin D or iodine. And contain B12 or vitamin D or iodine. And in fact, there's a big push right now to in fact, there's a big push right now to in fact, there's a big push right now to say, "Hey, why don't we say, "Hey, why don't we say, "Hey, why don't we regulate plant-based alternatives a bit regulate plant-based alternatives a bit regulate plant-based alternatives a bit more and have some requirements in place more and have some requirements in place more and have some requirements in place with regards to nutrients like vitamin D with regards to nutrients like vitamin D with regards to nutrients like vitamin D and protein and iodine so that the and protein and iodine so that the and protein and iodine so that the person who's shifting off of of dairy person who's shifting off of of dairy person who's shifting off of of dairy for health reasons, environmental or for health reasons, environmental or for health reasons, environmental or ethical, whatever they're bringing into ethical, whatever they're bringing into ethical, whatever they're bringing into their diet is actually a satisfactory their diet is actually a satisfactory their diet is actually a satisfactory replacement." Mhm. replacement." Mhm. replacement." Mhm. >> Um, overall >> Um, overall >> Um, overall I I wasn't too phased by the overall I I wasn't too phased by the overall I I wasn't too phased by the overall dairy recommendations because I think dairy recommendations because I think dairy recommendations because I think you can have some dairy within a healthy you can have some dairy within a healthy you can have some dairy within a healthy diet if you're lactose tolerant. Um, and diet if you're lactose tolerant. Um, and diet if you're lactose tolerant. Um, and we see that in Mediterranean diets and we see that in Mediterranean diets and we see that in Mediterranean diets and DASH diets and Nordic style diets. Um, DASH diets and Nordic style diets. Um, DASH diets and Nordic style diets. Um, I didn't like the recommendation for I didn't like the recommendation for I didn't like the recommendation for butter. I think that was very butter. I think that was very butter. I think that was very contradictory to the best evidence that contradictory to the best evidence that contradictory to the best evidence that we have out there along with with we have out there along with with we have out there along with with tallow. Um so that was confusing and um tallow. Um so that was confusing and um tallow. Um so that was confusing and um I mean that's really all I have to say I mean that's really all I have to say I mean that's really all I have to say about that. Yeah, I can't help but think about that. Yeah, I can't help but think about that. Yeah, I can't help but think that at least on some base level, this that at least on some base level, this that at least on some base level, this uh emphasis on full fat dairy stems from uh emphasis on full fat dairy stems from uh emphasis on full fat dairy stems from a reaction to uh the ineffectiveness of a reaction to uh the ineffectiveness of a reaction to uh the ineffectiveness of previous decades of campaigns pushing previous decades of campaigns pushing previous decades of campaigns pushing low-fat and fat-free foods. So, we low-fat and fat-free foods. So, we low-fat and fat-free foods. So, we talked earlier about this narrative of talked earlier about this narrative of talked earlier about this narrative of like, oh, like look what happened when like, oh, like look what happened when like, oh, like look what happened when we told everyone to eat low fat and we told everyone to eat low fat and we told everyone to eat low fat and everybody got fatter than ever. Um, everybody got fatter than ever. Um, everybody got fatter than ever. Um, let's stop vilifying fat. Uh, you know, let's stop vilifying fat. Uh, you know, let's stop vilifying fat. Uh, you know, fat has its proper place in a healthy fat has its proper place in a healthy fat has its proper place in a healthy diet and we should be eating, you know, diet and we should be eating, you know, diet and we should be eating, you know, we should be eating full fat and not be we should be eating full fat and not be we should be eating full fat and not be afraid of fat. Like, that's kind of like afraid of fat. Like, that's kind of like afraid of fat. Like, that's kind of like a a general narrative that's out there. a a general narrative that's out there. a a general narrative that's out there. And so does that not translate into, you And so does that not translate into, you And so does that not translate into, you know, this mention in the guidelines of know, this mention in the guidelines of know, this mention in the guidelines of like full fat dairy? Like it it kind of like full fat dairy? Like it it kind of like full fat dairy? Like it it kind of like emanates from that place like emanates from that place like emanates from that place likely. And I I think the public deserve likely. And I I think the public deserve likely. And I I think the public deserve to know that again that the low-fat to know that again that the low-fat to know that again that the low-fat messaging didn't work not because messaging didn't work not because messaging didn't work not because they're the science was wrong on they're the science was wrong on they're the science was wrong on saturated fat. It didn't work because saturated fat. It didn't work because saturated fat. It didn't work because the messaging resulted in people the messaging resulted in people the messaging resulted in people consuming more consuming more consuming more lowfat, ultrarocessed foods. They lowfat, ultrarocessed foods. They lowfat, ultrarocessed foods. They weren't consuming more nuts and seeds. weren't consuming more nuts and seeds. weren't consuming more nuts and seeds. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And olive oil. >> And olive oil. >> And olive oil. >> Uh so I think you're right in that a lot >> Uh so I think you're right in that a lot >> Uh so I think you're right in that a lot of people have been led to believe that of people have been led to believe that of people have been led to believe that fat's not the problem. You know, we we fat's not the problem. You know, we we fat's not the problem. You know, we we we we blame the wrong thing, but it's we we blame the wrong thing, but it's we we blame the wrong thing, but it's there's there's a little bit of nuance there's there's a little bit of nuance there's there's a little bit of nuance or a lot of a lot of nuance and context or a lot of a lot of nuance and context or a lot of a lot of nuance and context missing from that. I guess my overall missing from that. I guess my overall missing from that. I guess my overall perspective on this is on the one hand I perspective on this is on the one hand I perspective on this is on the one hand I think it's great that these guidelines think it's great that these guidelines think it's great that these guidelines say you know look you got to eat real say you know look you got to eat real say you know look you got to eat real food whole foods emphasis on whole foods food whole foods emphasis on whole foods food whole foods emphasis on whole foods you got to get rid of the highly you got to get rid of the highly you got to get rid of the highly processed foods we can all agree these processed foods we can all agree these processed foods we can all agree these are positive things and I like the fact are positive things and I like the fact are positive things and I like the fact that um these guidelines are are that um these guidelines are are that um these guidelines are are consumerf facing and are thinking about consumerf facing and are thinking about consumerf facing and are thinking about the individual and not just a the individual and not just a the individual and not just a governmental you know kind of like governmental you know kind of like governmental you know kind of like policy issuance Um, policy issuance Um, policy issuance Um, so there's a lot of good to be said so there's a lot of good to be said so there's a lot of good to be said about that in addition to the fact that, about that in addition to the fact that, about that in addition to the fact that, you know, it takes a pretty hard line on you know, it takes a pretty hard line on you know, it takes a pretty hard line on added sugar and sugary beverages and added sugar and sugary beverages and added sugar and sugary beverages and basically saying like no amount of added basically saying like no amount of added basically saying like no amount of added sugar is okay. Like, yeah, that's a sugar is okay. Like, yeah, that's a sugar is okay. Like, yeah, that's a that's a pretty good, you know, kind of that's a pretty good, you know, kind of that's a pretty good, you know, kind of public health message. Uh, it's limiting public health message. Uh, it's limiting public health message. Uh, it's limiting sodium to beneath 2,300 milligrams a sodium to beneath 2,300 milligrams a sodium to beneath 2,300 milligrams a day. day. day. The language around alcohol maybe could The language around alcohol maybe could The language around alcohol maybe could be a little bit more strident. It's be a little bit more strident. It's be a little bit more strident. It's basically saying like drink less. But basically saying like drink less. But basically saying like drink less. But fundamentally when you know we glance fundamentally when you know we glance fundamentally when you know we glance out and kind of look at uh out and kind of look at uh out and kind of look at uh modern developed society we just see modern developed society we just see modern developed society we just see chronic lifestyle diseases running chronic lifestyle diseases running chronic lifestyle diseases running rampant like the increase in rampant like the increase in rampant like the increase in cardiovascular disease in stroke in cardiovascular disease in stroke in cardiovascular disease in stroke in chronic high blood pressure the rise in chronic high blood pressure the rise in chronic high blood pressure the rise in type 2 diabetes type 2 diabetes type 2 diabetes uh dementia Alzheimer's all of these uh dementia Alzheimer's all of these uh dementia Alzheimer's all of these things derive from at least in some part things derive from at least in some part things derive from at least in some part uh decisions around nutrition and uh decisions around nutrition and uh decisions around nutrition and lifestyle. And when I see guidelines lifestyle. And when I see guidelines lifestyle. And when I see guidelines that are emphasizing things that are that are emphasizing things that are that are emphasizing things that are kind of diseasepromoting on some level, kind of diseasepromoting on some level, kind of diseasepromoting on some level, like too much red meat, you know, like like too much red meat, you know, like like too much red meat, you know, like basically basically basically people are eating too much saturated people are eating too much saturated people are eating too much saturated fat, they're eating too many animal fat, they're eating too many animal fat, they're eating too many animal products, they're not suffering from a products, they're not suffering from a products, they're not suffering from a protein deficiency, they're not getting protein deficiency, they're not getting protein deficiency, they're not getting enough fiber. And I would have preferred enough fiber. And I would have preferred enough fiber. And I would have preferred if the messaging was, you know, along if the messaging was, you know, along if the messaging was, you know, along those lines and consistent with that, those lines and consistent with that, those lines and consistent with that, like we need to be eating more plant like we need to be eating more plant like we need to be eating more plant foods. I'm not saying everybody should foods. I'm not saying everybody should foods. I'm not saying everybody should go plant-based, but like people are not go plant-based, but like people are not go plant-based, but like people are not eating enough fruits and vegetables and eating enough fruits and vegetables and eating enough fruits and vegetables and nuts and seeds and legumes. They're nuts and seeds and legumes. They're nuts and seeds and legumes. They're eating way too much meat. They're eating eating way too much meat. They're eating eating way too much meat. They're eating way too much processed food. Uh way too way too much processed food. Uh way too way too much processed food. Uh way too much saturated fat. They're walking much saturated fat. They're walking much saturated fat. They're walking around worried if they're getting enough around worried if they're getting enough around worried if they're getting enough protein while they're eating literally protein while they're eating literally protein while they're eating literally hamburgers every single day. Like, it's hamburgers every single day. Like, it's hamburgers every single day. Like, it's insane, right? And we're all sick. And insane, right? And we're all sick. And insane, right? And we're all sick. And then we want to say, "Oh, it's because then we want to say, "Oh, it's because then we want to say, "Oh, it's because of the lowfat messaging or it's because of the lowfat messaging or it's because of the lowfat messaging or it's because we're not getting enough protein." when we're not getting enough protein." when we're not getting enough protein." when it's so obviously the result of it's so obviously the result of it's so obviously the result of eating too much in general, like eating too much in general, like eating too much in general, like overeing essentially and those foods overeing essentially and those foods overeing essentially and those foods being overly processed and um being overly processed and um being overly processed and um overindexing on the bad fats and this is overindexing on the bad fats and this is overindexing on the bad fats and this is what's making us sick, especially when what's making us sick, especially when what's making us sick, especially when you combine it with a lack of uh you combine it with a lack of uh you combine it with a lack of uh exercise and movement. exercise and movement. exercise and movement. >> Yeah, you're preaching to the choir >> Yeah, you're preaching to the choir >> Yeah, you're preaching to the choir here. I wrote a book on this, but here. I wrote a book on this, but here. I wrote a book on this, but >> uh I would the the there's another side >> uh I would the the there's another side >> uh I would the the there's another side of me that that feels like, you know, 60 of me that that feels like, you know, 60 of me that that feels like, you know, 60 to 70% of the average American's diet is to 70% of the average American's diet is to 70% of the average American's diet is coming from ultrarocessed foods. And coming from ultrarocessed foods. And coming from ultrarocessed foods. And should we let perfection be the enemy of should we let perfection be the enemy of should we let perfection be the enemy of good here? good here? good here? >> And it comes back to I just think it's >> And it comes back to I just think it's >> And it comes back to I just think it's more interesting totally to to ask, you more interesting totally to to ask, you more interesting totally to to ask, you know, why can't the average American know, why can't the average American know, why can't the average American follow these these these guidelines? follow these these these guidelines? follow these these these guidelines? What are what's the structural problems? What are what's the structural problems? What are what's the structural problems? Like what has to change? Human beings Like what has to change? Human beings Like what has to change? Human beings are messy. Human beings are messy, you are messy. Human beings are messy, you are messy. Human beings are messy, you know, but know, but know, but >> we're emotional. We eat We eat based on >> we're emotional. We eat We eat based on >> we're emotional. We eat We eat based on emotion and our and and basically emotion and our and and basically emotion and our and and basically environment. environment. environment. >> That's true. We and the environment >> That's true. We and the environment >> That's true. We and the environment piece is kind of where I'm getting at. I piece is kind of where I'm getting at. I piece is kind of where I'm getting at. I think some might think that the answer think some might think that the answer think some might think that the answer here is more educ education or here is more educ education or here is more educ education or technology like where the CGMs and these technology like where the CGMs and these technology like where the CGMs and these types of things, but the more I've been types of things, but the more I've been types of things, but the more I've been the longer I've been in this space, I the longer I've been in this space, I the longer I've been in this space, I realized that it's a lot more complex realized that it's a lot more complex realized that it's a lot more complex than that. to to truly shape the average than that. to to truly shape the average than that. to to truly shape the average American's diet and to truly like reduce American's diet and to truly like reduce American's diet and to truly like reduce the the metabolic diseases the the metabolic diseases the the metabolic diseases is is going to cha take massive is is going to cha take massive is is going to cha take massive structural changes and that requires structural changes and that requires structural changes and that requires policy changes. Yeah, I think that's an policy changes. Yeah, I think that's an policy changes. Yeah, I think that's an important emphasis. Uh the word important emphasis. Uh the word important emphasis. Uh the word structural and environmental when we put structural and environmental when we put structural and environmental when we put it all on the individual and uh it all on the individual and uh it all on the individual and uh basically say well it's up to you and basically say well it's up to you and basically say well it's up to you and your willpower to make these decisions your willpower to make these decisions your willpower to make these decisions like human beings are just we just we're like human beings are just we just we're like human beings are just we just we're not very good at that. And this goes not very good at that. And this goes not very good at that. And this goes back to something Dan Bututner has back to something Dan Bututner has back to something Dan Bututner has shared on the podcast a couple times shared on the podcast a couple times shared on the podcast a couple times like it's all about your environment. like it's all about your environment. like it's all about your environment. Like your environment has to be Like your environment has to be Like your environment has to be conducive to making the healthy choice. conducive to making the healthy choice. conducive to making the healthy choice. And when your environment is kind of And when your environment is kind of And when your environment is kind of pushing you towards making those pushing you towards making those pushing you towards making those unhealthy choices, you're swimming unhealthy choices, you're swimming unhealthy choices, you're swimming upstream. And it's very difficult for upstream. And it's very difficult for upstream. And it's very difficult for the individual to make the contrary the individual to make the contrary the individual to make the contrary healthier choice. We need, you know, healthier choice. We need, you know, healthier choice. We need, you know, bike lanes. We need policy shifts that bike lanes. We need policy shifts that bike lanes. We need policy shifts that remove the vending machines from the remove the vending machines from the remove the vending machines from the schools and the offices and the schools and the offices and the schools and the offices and the institutions. We have to make the institutions. We have to make the institutions. We have to make the healthy foods available at arms length healthy foods available at arms length healthy foods available at arms length and affordable. And this is all dictated and affordable. And this is all dictated and affordable. And this is all dictated by policy. public health policy. And by policy. public health policy. And by policy. public health policy. And this gets at the core of like what this gets at the core of like what this gets at the core of like what Jessica Nurk talks about. When you have Jessica Nurk talks about. When you have Jessica Nurk talks about. When you have someone like RFK Jr. who's running HHS, someone like RFK Jr. who's running HHS, someone like RFK Jr. who's running HHS, he can say everything he wants to say he can say everything he wants to say he can say everything he wants to say about what he's going to do to make about what he's going to do to make about what he's going to do to make America healthy again, but essentially America healthy again, but essentially America healthy again, but essentially every single one of his talking points every single one of his talking points every single one of his talking points speaks to some personal choice around a speaks to some personal choice around a speaks to some personal choice around a diet. You know, like whether it's like diet. You know, like whether it's like diet. You know, like whether it's like swapping seed oils for butter, it swapping seed oils for butter, it swapping seed oils for butter, it doesn't even matter. It's all about the doesn't even matter. It's all about the doesn't even matter. It's all about the individual. but he's in charge of an individual. but he's in charge of an individual. but he's in charge of an institution that is responsible for institution that is responsible for institution that is responsible for public health initiatives, regulatory public health initiatives, regulatory public health initiatives, regulatory policy uh for public health at large, policy uh for public health at large, policy uh for public health at large, like those systems and those structures like those systems and those structures like those systems and those structures that drive us either towards poor health that drive us either towards poor health that drive us either towards poor health outcomes or improved health outcomes. outcomes or improved health outcomes. outcomes or improved health outcomes. And that's what's important here, right? And that's what's important here, right? And that's what's important here, right? like are these things that HHS is doing like are these things that HHS is doing like are these things that HHS is doing uh driving improved public health uh driving improved public health uh driving improved public health outcomes or not? And to the extent that outcomes or not? And to the extent that outcomes or not? And to the extent that everything he's saying is about like everything he's saying is about like everything he's saying is about like personal choice, that's not really what personal choice, that's not really what personal choice, that's not really what his job is. One of the strongest his job is. One of the strongest his job is. One of the strongest predictors of health span is zip code. predictors of health span is zip code. predictors of health span is zip code. Where do you live? What what environment Where do you live? What what environment Where do you live? What what environment do you personally live in? And I I think do you personally live in? And I I think do you personally live in? And I I think that was something I did didn't that was something I did didn't that was something I did didn't appreciate a decade ago or not nearly appreciate a decade ago or not nearly appreciate a decade ago or not nearly enough. And so people might be listening enough. And so people might be listening enough. And so people might be listening and thinking, well, hang on, Rich. You and thinking, well, hang on, Rich. You and thinking, well, hang on, Rich. You know, I I heard information and I was know, I I heard information and I was know, I I heard information and I was able to dramatically change my life. And able to dramatically change my life. And able to dramatically change my life. And to that I would say, you know, I I to that I would say, you know, I I to that I would say, you know, I I believe that you need a top down and believe that you need a top down and believe that you need a top down and bottom up approach. So top down policy bottom up approach. So top down policy bottom up approach. So top down policy changes, bottom up like what we're doing changes, bottom up like what we're doing changes, bottom up like what we're doing and educating people. I think that's and educating people. I think that's and educating people. I think that's great and it's helpful. It's a public great and it's helpful. It's a public great and it's helpful. It's a public service or I wouldn't do it and I'm sure service or I wouldn't do it and I'm sure service or I wouldn't do it and I'm sure you wouldn't either. Um, but at an you wouldn't either. Um, but at an you wouldn't either. Um, but at an individual level, I think it's worth individual level, I think it's worth individual level, I think it's worth understanding understanding understanding and and having greater empathy to to and and having greater empathy to to and and having greater empathy to to know that our circumstances and capacity know that our circumstances and capacity know that our circumstances and capacity to change are not always equal to to change are not always equal to to change are not always equal to everyone else's everyone else's everyone else's >> depending on the environment >> depending on the environment >> depending on the environment >> and and it comes back to all of those >> and and it comes back to all of those >> and and it comes back to all of those different social determinants of health. different social determinants of health. different social determinants of health. >> Um, and so I I agree with I think >> Um, and so I I agree with I think >> Um, and so I I agree with I think Jessica Nurick's doing, you know, a Jessica Nurick's doing, you know, a Jessica Nurick's doing, you know, a great job at like really putting a great job at like really putting a great job at like really putting a number of these things front and center number of these things front and center number of these things front and center and saying, "Hey, you know what, Maha, and saying, "Hey, you know what, Maha, and saying, "Hey, you know what, Maha, you're doing a great job at identifying you're doing a great job at identifying you're doing a great job at identifying the problem. Ultrarocessed foods, food the problem. Ultrarocessed foods, food the problem. Ultrarocessed foods, food environment, but you know where you environment, but you know where you environment, but you know where you could do better? could do better? could do better? Let's make changes to that structure Let's make changes to that structure Let's make changes to that structure rather than talking about things that rather than talking about things that rather than talking about things that the individual can do in an environment the individual can do in an environment the individual can do in an environment that's set up for them to fail." that's set up for them to fail." that's set up for them to fail." >> Sure. There is, in our case, uh, an a >> Sure. There is, in our case, uh, an a >> Sure. There is, in our case, uh, an a grocery store with incredibly healthy grocery store with incredibly healthy grocery store with incredibly healthy options in between this studio and my options in between this studio and my options in between this studio and my home that I drive by every day. And I home that I drive by every day. And I home that I drive by every day. And I benefit from a health perspective benefit from a health perspective benefit from a health perspective because of that fact, because that is in because of that fact, because that is in because of that fact, because that is in my environment. And I'm privileged my environment. And I'm privileged my environment. And I'm privileged enough to be able to afford those foods. enough to be able to afford those foods. enough to be able to afford those foods. Uh, not everybody is in that situation. Uh, not everybody is in that situation. Uh, not everybody is in that situation. uh and they're living in environments uh and they're living in environments uh and they're living in environments where they're surrounded by people who where they're surrounded by people who where they're surrounded by people who are making unhealthy choices and the are making unhealthy choices and the are making unhealthy choices and the healthy choices are not at arms reach or healthy choices are not at arms reach or healthy choices are not at arms reach or they are unaffordable and to um put it they are unaffordable and to um put it they are unaffordable and to um put it on that person to go against the grain on that person to go against the grain on that person to go against the grain in that environment is not going to in that environment is not going to in that environment is not going to solve the problem. solve the problem. solve the problem. >> So these are yeah these are that's a >> So these are yeah these are that's a >> So these are yeah these are that's a top- down perspective on the problem. We top- down perspective on the problem. We top- down perspective on the problem. We all can make better choices every single all can make better choices every single all can make better choices every single day. Like I said, I do think we're all day. Like I said, I do think we're all day. Like I said, I do think we're all making these choices emotionally and making these choices emotionally and making these choices emotionally and developing a degree of self-awareness developing a degree of self-awareness developing a degree of self-awareness and exercising some discipline. We can and exercising some discipline. We can and exercising some discipline. We can all do better with regard to that. But all do better with regard to that. But all do better with regard to that. But that alone from the bottom up is not that alone from the bottom up is not that alone from the bottom up is not going to solve the problem either. We do going to solve the problem either. We do going to solve the problem either. We do need both approaches. need both approaches. need both approaches. >> I think we could have probably a round >> I think we could have probably a round >> I think we could have probably a round table with Jessica and and others. This table with Jessica and and others. This table with Jessica and and others. This is an area that I I understand I would is an area that I I understand I would is an area that I I understand I would say loosely at a high level and and want say loosely at a high level and and want say loosely at a high level and and want to know and learn a lot more about what to know and learn a lot more about what to know and learn a lot more about what where because a lot of this has been where because a lot of this has been where because a lot of this has been looked at from an evidence perspective. looked at from an evidence perspective. looked at from an evidence perspective. You know what shifts the needle when you You know what shifts the needle when you You know what shifts the needle when you do an intervention to change food do an intervention to change food do an intervention to change food marketing to kids? Does it change things marketing to kids? Does it change things marketing to kids? Does it change things when you fund certain programs or you when you fund certain programs or you when you fund certain programs or you have certain taxes on certain foods? have certain taxes on certain foods? have certain taxes on certain foods? What are the outcomes? And what have What are the outcomes? And what have What are the outcomes? And what have other countries seen? And so I I I think other countries seen? And so I I I think other countries seen? And so I I I think there are blueprints out there and Dan there are blueprints out there and Dan there are blueprints out there and Dan Butner talks about those. Um but that Butner talks about those. Um but that Butner talks about those. Um but that might be an interesting discussion to might be an interesting discussion to might be an interesting discussion to kind of dig deeper into in the future. kind of dig deeper into in the future. kind of dig deeper into in the future. >> We should let's let's get Jessica in >> We should let's let's get Jessica in >> We should let's let's get Jessica in here and we'll do it together. I would here and we'll do it together. I would here and we'll do it together. I would love that. It' be great. Speaking of love that. It' be great. Speaking of love that. It' be great. Speaking of which, I do I just I'm talking to the which, I do I just I'm talking to the which, I do I just I'm talking to the audience now like I do want to do some audience now like I do want to do some audience now like I do want to do some roundt kind of stuff. Um, so we're roundt kind of stuff. Um, so we're roundt kind of stuff. Um, so we're working on some plans with that as well, working on some plans with that as well, working on some plans with that as well, which I think would be fun when we can which I think would be fun when we can which I think would be fun when we can speak to something that's very topical speak to something that's very topical speak to something that's very topical and on people's minds um to be part of and on people's minds um to be part of and on people's minds um to be part of the conversation around these kind of the conversation around these kind of the conversation around these kind of health and nutrition related or fitness health and nutrition related or fitness health and nutrition related or fitness related concerns. So, I look forward to related concerns. So, I look forward to related concerns. So, I look forward to hosting you for a couple of those as hosting you for a couple of those as hosting you for a couple of those as well. well. well. >> I think you're the perfect host to do >> I think you're the perfect host to do >> I think you're the perfect host to do that and I think that that and I think that that and I think that >> the community desperately needs those >> the community desperately needs those >> the community desperately needs those conversations. conversations. conversations. >> Mhm. More to come. Uh, any final words >> Mhm. More to come. Uh, any final words >> Mhm. More to come. Uh, any final words on the guidelines? on the guidelines? on the guidelines? I created a a uh free to access web page I created a a uh free to access web page I created a a uh free to access web page called real food.proof.com. And because I was inundated from from And because I was inundated from from people messaging me saying, "Hey, I've people messaging me saying, "Hey, I've people messaging me saying, "Hey, I've been listening to your show for eight been listening to your show for eight been listening to your show for eight years and Christopher Gardner and Kevin years and Christopher Gardner and Kevin years and Christopher Gardner and Kevin Hall and all these guys." And Hall and all these guys." And Hall and all these guys." And >> you go for eight hours and then it's >> you go for eight hours and then it's >> you go for eight hours and then it's like, "Yeah, but okay, what do I eat and like, "Yeah, but okay, what do I eat and like, "Yeah, but okay, what do I eat and what do I not eat?" And also they're what do I not eat?" And also they're what do I not eat?" And also they're like in the new dietary guidelines that like in the new dietary guidelines that like in the new dietary guidelines that come out and they seem a little come out and they seem a little come out and they seem a little different to what you guys are talking different to what you guys are talking different to what you guys are talking about. So I went through the the about. So I went through the the about. So I went through the the scientific recommendations from scientific recommendations from scientific recommendations from Christopher Gardner's committee which Christopher Gardner's committee which Christopher Gardner's committee which was 20 of the top nutrition scientists was 20 of the top nutrition scientists was 20 of the top nutrition scientists in in the states who worked on it for 2 in in the states who worked on it for 2 in in the states who worked on it for 2 years and I took those recommendations years and I took those recommendations years and I took those recommendations and developed a very clean simple set of and developed a very clean simple set of and developed a very clean simple set of guidelines um that also addresses some guidelines um that also addresses some guidelines um that also addresses some of the myths that we've spoken about. of the myths that we've spoken about. of the myths that we've spoken about. And so there's a very simple almost And so there's a very simple almost And so there's a very simple almost landing page realfood.proof.com. landing page realfood.proof.com. landing page realfood.proof.com. And so if you're wanting to kind of And so if you're wanting to kind of And so if you're wanting to kind of doubleclick on the new dietary doubleclick on the new dietary doubleclick on the new dietary guidelines and make sense of things from guidelines and make sense of things from guidelines and make sense of things from a very practical point of view, I would a very practical point of view, I would a very practical point of view, I would I would visit that. And then lastly, I I would visit that. And then lastly, I I would visit that. And then lastly, I would say if you're looking for a would say if you're looking for a would say if you're looking for a official set of country guidelines to official set of country guidelines to official set of country guidelines to really hang your hat on, look at really hang your hat on, look at really hang your hat on, look at Canada's. Canada's. Canada's. >> Canada's the best. >> Canada's the best. >> Canada's the best. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh your page that you mentioned uh is >> Uh your page that you mentioned uh is >> Uh your page that you mentioned uh is incredible. like you shared it with me incredible. like you shared it with me incredible. like you shared it with me before I think actually you even before I think actually you even before I think actually you even published it and I was like how did you published it and I was like how did you published it and I was like how did you do this? It's incredible work and super do this? It's incredible work and super do this? It's incredible work and super helpful and very helpful and very helpful and very um graphic laden in a way that makes it um graphic laden in a way that makes it um graphic laden in a way that makes it intuitive and easy to kind of remember. intuitive and easy to kind of remember. intuitive and easy to kind of remember. It's a it that is an act of of service It's a it that is an act of of service It's a it that is an act of of service my friend. my friend. my friend. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So the URL for that again one last time >> So the URL for that again one last time >> So the URL for that again one last time >> realfood.theproof.com the proof.com >> realfood.theproof.com the proof.com >> realfood.theproof.com the proof.com >> and make sure to check out the proof >> and make sure to check out the proof >> and make sure to check out the proof podcast here at voicing change. podcast here at voicing change. podcast here at voicing change. >> Yeah, I just did that conversation with >> Yeah, I just did that conversation with >> Yeah, I just did that conversation with Christopher Gardner and Ty Beiel as Christopher Gardner and Ty Beiel as Christopher Gardner and Ty Beiel as well, so that could be another resource well, so that could be another resource well, so that could be another resource people might may want to check out. people might may want to check out. people might may want to check out. >> Um, all right. Thanks, my friend. >> Um, all right. Thanks, my friend. >> Um, all right. Thanks, my friend. >> Thank you, Rich. >> Thank you, Rich. >> Thank you, Rich. >> Let's do it again soon. All right. >> Let's do it again soon. All right. >> Let's do it again soon. All right. Peace. Peace. Peace. >> Thanks.