NOAH KAHAN Reveals His Battle with OCD & Anxiety - And What He’s Sharing for the First Time Ever

Key Takeaway

Noah Kahan opens up about the intersection of creativity and mental health, revealing a profound truth: the belief that suffering fuels art can become a prison. His journey teaches us that healing doesn't dull creativity—it actually unlocks it. The real breakthrough comes when you stop trying to manufacture vulnerability and instead create from wherever you truly are, even if that place is healthier than before.

Episode Overview

In this deeply personal conversation, singer-songwriter Noah Kahan discusses his upcoming album 'The Great Divide' and Netflix documentary 'Out of Body.' He explores the complex relationship between creativity and mental health, sharing how he navigated writer's block, imposter syndrome, and the fear that healing would diminish his artistic voice. Key themes include the isolation of creative struggle, the pressure of following up massive success, learning to be present in moments of achievement, and dismantling the myth that suffering is necessary for great art.

Full Transcript

Transcript of NOAH KAHAN Reveals His Battle with OCD & Anxiety - And What He’s Sharing for the First Time Ever from On Purpose. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

It's easy to look at somebody and be like, "Your life must be so sick, man. You have no clue." Talking about the mental illness stuff. It used to be this thing that I was ashamed of. I'm just now trying to unwind this idea that I have to be unhealthy physically or in pain in some emotional way in my life to create good music. If someone says that I did a good job, I'm like, "Yeah, I'm good." Someone says that I suck, I'm like, "I suck." Getting to talk about this is not common for me.

Right now, I need it more than ever. Hey everyone, welcome back to OnPurpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today on OnPurpose, I'm joined by singer songwriter Noah Khan. Noah's highly anticipated new album, The Great Divide, is out April 24th, alongside his brand new Netflix documentary, Noah Khan, Out of Body, out April 13th. Please welcome to OnPurpose, Noah Khan. Noah, it's great to finally meet you. Thank you for having me. I'm a huge fan and this is awesome. So, thank you.

I have to say I'm a huge fan. Thank you for sending your documentary in advance. I was I'm actually really looking forward to people seeing it because it was so raw. It was so vulnerable. It was super real. I felt like I got to know you before I got to know you today. And then when we're sitting down before the interview today, I'm like, "Oh, wait. This is I feel like I've already got very familiar with you." Yeah. It's so weird like to know it's going to be out in the world.

Like it was almost like I was able to compartmentalize the process of making it with like not thinking about anyone seeing it so that I was able to kind of be more myself. And then in a lot of ways it was like really therapeutic to film um and to watch back. It's like a very heavy experience like watching yourself and getting to see your family. But like my family and I were talking, we're like, we're actually so lucky that we got to be a part of this because how rare is it to get to see how you all interact with each other in a natural way and like how you can kind of take into perspective like what it would look like from an outside angle and like watching it back.

I think my whole family was like we are really good to each other and like we all are funny and love each other and so it was a really amazing like abil like chance to see who we are and through the eyes of someone else and through the artistic lens of like a director and um and hopefully soon the audience which is it's just a special thing. So I appreciate you watching it. Um it's like my first time talking about it right now. So, I'm still like learning how to talk about it and learning how to like express um my feelings on it cuz I'm still kind of finding out what they are.

Um but ultimately, like I just hope that people that watch it feel connected to their families, to their lives, to their own insecurities, um through, you know, me talking about mine. Um and it was hard and it was scary, but I think ultimately like those are the things that move people and and can make people take stock of who they are. So making it, there was moments where I was like, should I talk about this? Should I say this? Like, should I really say what I'm feeling?

So I have this like hyperactive ability to like know how it's going to be perceived. And just trying to put away like my concerns about how people would perceive me and just try to be myself was like a fun challenge and I think helped me in like my own life now. Yeah. Well, I really hope this conversation is as much a discovery and exploration for you as it is for us. And so that I hope that it helps so that I hope that it helps you you you uh in the journey of what you're trying to do and the mission and the purpose that's behind it.

We see so much of your childhood in it. You talk about it like what's a childhood memory that stands out to you that still defines who you are today. are today. are today. My dad and I in the documentary play um father and son at the end which is like the first song I learned to sing and one of the first songs I learned to play guitar on with my dad. And so like I think playing that song at this um senior citizens home uh in in Hanover was like really defining cuz it was like my first time performing and it was my first time realizing that like I wasn't as good as I thought I was.

Like I think I thought it was really good and then I went and did that performance. I'm like oh like this is really hard. And also like the song itself is about like a lot of it's about like aging and kind of like the discrepancy between youth and and people that are getting older and like the youth feeling like old people don't understand and we're literally doing it in an old folks song. Like these people are probably like, "Yeah, the dad character is way more correct than this character." But that was like a defining moment for me and also the only time my dad and I have ever performed like for anyone besides our family uh until we did the documentary.

So I always remember that like a really special moment of my childhood. That is special. That's super special. What What were you like as a kid? Like how would you describe yourself growing up? up? up? I was I'm one of four like kind of like middle child like it's my older brother, my older sister than me, then my younger brother. So I was kind of like in my own world a little bit I think. Very creative, very like aspirational to do something creative with my life even from a very young age.

Um but also like very distracted um distracting just kind of trying to be heard even just around the dinner table or in school just like trying to make my voice the loudest one to get like a chance to say what I had to say. And what was your message? Just raising your voice. Just yelling and like Yeah. Just being like an [ __ ] basically, I think. Uh, but just trying to be heard and trying to like get the attention that I wanted, just kind of being in the middle and trying to just have my voice be one that people can hear.

I was not a great student. I love I I think I was pretty smart, but didn't really care much for school cuz I always always always wanted to be musician. And truly, like every year of school for me felt like just one more year of me not getting to go be a singer. Mhm. So, I was just looking forward to being done with school and going to write songs and going to play music um and going to do open mic. So, very like I don't know kind of just like itching and a little anxious to get out um as a kid from whatever situation wasn't like going to achieve my dreams.

What do you think your vision was for life if if this hadn't happened like this incredible success and journey that you're on right now? Like what what did you envision? you envision? you envision? I literally never ever thought about it. Like I've never thought about anything else besides being a musician. Wow. in sixth grade you wrote a letter to yourself that you would open when you graduate high school and like my letter was just was just was just that's such a great exercise. Yeah, it is actually really cool and like kind of sets you up for like sadness in a lot of ways.

Like, oh man, I haven't done any of that [ __ ] Uh but for me it was like I want to have a record deal by the time I graduate high school and I want to make it was basically like you better still be making music. You better still be like writing and like thinking about music. Uh and when I graduated high school, I had a record deal and I opened up the letter. I'm like this is cool. I think I made my like childhood self pretty proud there.

And so I remember writing that and actually like throughout high school, I was like thinking about like, man, I got to get that record dealer. Sixth grade, no one's going to beat me up. up. up. But yeah, it was always my life plan. I think if I I people do ask me all the time about what I would do if I wasn't in music, but it's always with the context of already being in music. I think music is so my job feels so me focused all the time and like so centered on who I am and marketing me and marketing my vulnerability and um whatever.

And so I think just something that would be focused on other people and focused on like helping other people and extending and extending and extending myself to help others spotlight themselves. Um just something that wasn't so Noah all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. You I mean you've talked about how like writing as a teenager was an outlet for feeling different and your anxiety like what what was that feeling different than that music was an outlet for and what was the anxiety back then? Yeah, it was interesting.

So, I I was always trying to fit in and always and like had lots of friends and um but I always kind of felt like I was hiding this part of myself that was like really vulnerable and um sad and going through a lot of like mental health stuff even at a really early age. Um, and I think that created this like disconnect in my life where like I was going to school or hanging out with my friends and like really putting on um to be who I thought would be like accepted and then going home and feeling like really just disconnected from like this presentation of myself all the time.

Um, and so writing music was like my own special little thing. And for a long time, I really missed that too, like when it was just my special my special little buddy, you know, just going home and writing a song and and like having this other like Hannah Montana thing that I did where like I would go home and like write music and then go to school and just be like, you know, a class clown and be annoying at school and then go home and like just kind of access this other other side of myself.

So writing music was always a way for me to uh to kind of have something that made me feel like I belonged and who I like in who I really was. was. was. Yeah. Do you miss that because you don't feel you get to do that anymore in a certain way? Like I just feel like everything I do even like internally on my own like I just always am thinking about it from like a how is this going to move my career forward? How do we market this?

Like I don't know when you like start to be sentient to like who you are and what your music can represent to people, it can affect like the intention. And so sometimes I worry that I'm not being I'm not saying things that I feel. I'm just saying things that sound like deep or sad or whatever. And um I like to think that the music that I put out is all stuff that I connect to, but it's just in the writing process and in like thinking about like how do we market your vulnerability in the next album?

How do we like show people this other sad thing? And and when it's like I feel like there's all this [ __ ] that's up for grabs and up for like everything that I have is going out and being taken in and being absorbed or being sold. And I miss when it was just me and the guitar and like the only person in the world that was going to hear that song was maybe my mom. and then I my my notebook or whatever. Um whatever. Um whatever. Um yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, I I miss that and I miss having music be just this special thing um that wasn't like adulterated by the other side of music, which is not as much fun for me.

for me. for me. But what I'm hearing from you is that in your writing process, you're almost using that awareness that you have to go, oh no, I want to write with intention and I want to write with my real feeling. And it almost feels like you're using as a filter, which I guess you're saying in the past that filter didn't exist. You didn't need to. Now you almost have to filter it through that. that. that. Yeah. And in a lot of ways it's nice because seeing people respond and and I'm not even talking about like marketing or charts or whatever like selling shows out.

It's just watching people like in the crowd hearing the music and like watching a girl and her dad or frat guys or grown men like out there like feeling the music. Yes. Yes. Yes. That helps me like it inspires me to be vulnerable. It's just a matter of like towing the line between being vulnerable and trying to achieve what people think vulnerability looks like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes realizing that sometimes some things don't fit into a box. They don't fit into a three and a half minute song.

Sometimes the conversation is much larger and being okay with not being able to say everything you want all the time. Um, and just yeah, even like as I talked about the documentary, just like I'm still figuring out how to talk about these feelings that I express. Like I don't have a thousand foot view of like what I went through. And so learning how to like express myself without feeling like I'm giving myself away um is a is something that I've been grappling with a lot. a lot.

a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's this I mean just for whatever it's worth when I was watching the documentary my wife randomly was walking through the room and she stopped. She didn't even know what I was watching. Like she just thought it was on my laptop and I'm watching it and she walked in on the moment where you're singing for the little wonderful girl who has cancer. And my wife just stopped and was like she heard it and she was so mesmerized. She came over and she just saw the little girl and she was just and it's like that was just your music and that moment and she had no clue what I was Yeah.

She didn't know and and it it had an impact in like this very passive way of even experiencing it. And I think that says a lot about what you're channeling and putting through. That's the most wonderful compliment that somebody that I'm sure your wife has a very different background than I do like or or maybe she was from my hometown. I don't know. No, no, no. She's She's She's But, uh, just like somebody that's not in the in my world or in my body or in my experience, like finding a connection within themselves or like an interest in something.

I think that's like what mental health, the conversation about mental health for me has been so cool is like understanding that where I came from um is my own and I grew up with privilege and with uh access and like that people that didn't have that are still connecting to the feelings there and it brings us together and it kind of helps equalize um our differences into this like larger similarity of just going through something mentally. Yeah. I listen to you and I'm like wait was I from Vermont?

Yeah. Why does this steal my soul? Like, you know, and I'm not I'm not just saying that to flatter you. I'm like, as a I'm like, wait a minute. Why does this like why does this hit so deep? You know, it's and it's such a beautiful thing of like connecting to strangers or people from different walks of life and different backgrounds. But I find it fascinating that you talk about, you know, almost missing this old experience, but then in the documentary, you kind of start it with like this line of I'm so afraid of losing this special thing and it might go away.

Yeah. And so it's almost like there's there's something beautiful about what's happening now, too. Yeah. It's it's I think I'm just constantly in like a grass is greener mindset and constantly trying to go backwards. I worked for this songwriter in Nashville and he's this older guy started when he was in his 40s. His name was Tom Douglas, uh, great writer. He said songwriting is all about trying to go back and and to somewhere simpler and somewhere easier. And I think that's how I live a lot of my life.

And I'm very actively like hyperactively aware of moments as they're there and I'm not able to be inside of the moment because I'm so worried about when it's gone and I know I'll never be able to go back to it. And so in the documentary you see a lot of me being like this imposter syndrome of like I might not get this ever again. This might all go away. and for having worked for so long for like nine eight or nine years before I had that kind of moment that allowed me into those big venues and that like more kind of like global success I guess I'm so aware of how fleeting and how hard it can be to refind it.

And so I think I spent so much time worrying about not being able to get it again that a lot of those moments I wasn't able to fully live in. So when there were moments like Fenway Park in the documentary as you as you see in in the movie like that I'm able to fully be in those are so special to me like and you you felt you were like that was one of the few times that was one of the few times that I felt like I was just there and like looking out and I just felt like so with everybody else in that moment and not thinking about before or after and you know that's why that show was so special to me like the fans all being there the venue amazing but like for me selfishly it was just like oh I'm here this is awesome I am right where you guys are right now and I felt like the same for a little I mean, I I I feel like I love watching that genuine kind of present yet anxious feeling we all experience.

Like that shot of you lying on the lawn at Fenway, like lying on the ground and texting right at the beginning beginning beginning and and it's like you're like, I can't believe I'm here. It's surreal, but then you're like, but I'm anxious. And and when I watch that, I'm like, but that's so real. Like that is the most present way in one sense to experience anything. It's like that's the human experience, right? It's like, oh man, I always am so jealous of like, and maybe there's no one exists that can do this, but someone that's just like fully living in the moment, like fully like just accepting things as they come, being right there, experiencing everything and not thinking about the context or the future.

It's possible. Yeah, it's possible. Oh, that would be so sick, dude. If you have a guy in LA that you could hook me up with, like just implant something in my brain. So, it's like I don't know if it's tech I only know the meditative way to that. I don't know the technological way to that. Even meditation, bro. I'll be meditating and I'll be like, man, I don't think I'm meditating good enough. I meditated so much better when I was young, dude. It's hard. Meditation like it's so um powerful, but it's so difficult to like It's like golf.

It's hard. It is. And you have It takes a while. Like it's the consistency is is key for meditation, I think. But I'd like to learn more about that from you someday. Of course. Right. Of course. I love how you talk about though. This I I think what I what I'm getting at is there's I just feel like you're really honest about how we all feel. I think it's very easy to artist to be like, "All right, I had this success. You know, six season was insane.

like the next thing is going to be as big or bigger. And the reality is I think anyone who's had any success, you're always scared of your next thing. Like that's just such a normal human emotion. And so you talk about this idea of being scared and sad for the next album. How does that bleed into your creativity and how do you use it rather than be controlled by it? That's a great question. I'm still learning. Um I mean when I was 16 years old, no record deal, nobody knew I was like making music or anything.

Uh I remember still feeling that way. Like I wrote a song called Sink when I was a kid and I like loved this song and then the next day I was crying cuz I'm like I'll never make anything as good as that again. So there was no stakes at all for me at that point in my life. Uh but that feeling has chased me around throughout my entire career and was incredibly difficult um coming off of of stick season just because I kept on raising like the stakes emotionally for myself to to have to follow it up.

Uh, and for the first like year after being on tour for three years of stick season, I was just kind of lost in how to fight that feeling. I had a conversation with a few different artists. I don't necessarily want to name them just cuz I don't want to put them on the spot, but they had gone through this themselves like burnout and um, major success and needing to follow things up. And the advice was just like the best advice I got was like it's just not going to be the same process and you can't control it.

you can't like try to make it perfect and it's just going to be what it is. So, I had to just kind of let go of um this idea of like the followup and just make music for that same, same, same, you know, 8-year-old that picked up the guitar the first time and just make music because it's what I'm supposed to do. Yeah, I it's beautiful to hear that you actually reached out to other artists who've gone through similar things and have you have you felt that support in that community because I think there aren't so many more artists now who are talking about their mental health and are talking about the creative process and everything else.

Do you Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I feel like people really want to talk about themselves. I think and sometimes it's just getting that conversation started. It's funny because like creativity and its intersection with selfworth is so difficult for people to navigate. You know, that's so well said. Explain that for me. That's me. That's me. That's Yeah. Just I think a lot of times as creative people, as writers, um actors, whatever podcasts, you feel like what you do is who you are. And when you're talking, what your job is is expressing yourself.

You feel like when you can't express yourself, you're not good at your job and you're not good at satisfying this need to to let yourself out. Um, and so it becomes very lonely because you feel like admitting that to somebody is not just admitting that you're struggling in your job means you're struggling with yourself. Um, and that can be really really difficult to say to somebody, especially somebody that you look up to that you think has it all together. Um, so like talking to these people was really hard.

Like my voice shakes on the phone being like, I just don't think I can write songs anymore and I don't think I can do this. And like having to open yourself up to somebody like that and be like and be afraid that they're going to say, "Well, that sucks." You know, and and to hear someone say, "I get it, and I went through that, too." Or, "I have my own version of that in my life." Um, it just makes the world feel brighter. It makes like the clouds over your head just for a second go away, and you're like, "At least, even if it's not fixed yet, at least you've been here before and there's a path out." Um, so I'd like unbelievably grateful to those artists, to my family, to my wife, to the people that like sat with me in those feelings and like observed how I was handling it and recognized that I needed some help.

So, I'm really grateful to the people that helped me. And if you're listening to the podcast, like, thank you so much. And I this album would not have happened without without them. So, everything you just said was so well articulated. that I hope you listen back to because it was just everything you just said about creativity and selfworth just resonated so strongly. Thank you. Yeah, it's it's hard to describe and it's hard. You just described it really well. Thanks, man. Thanks, man. Thanks, man. Just I was like you literally just summed up the essence of dude when I was a kid I was like even cuz when even when I was going through this stuff as a kid like writer's block and stuff like that, I would just look up artists with writer's block and hope that I could see a quote from somebody that would just like unlock everything.

And I found a few, but like I tried to make a vow to myself to like talk about creative struggle uh because it's really isolating and really lonely and it just feels like you get stripped of who you are and it's um it just feels like you're drowning. So uh I always want to try my best to uh share what I've gone through um just so people can can maybe hear it and and be understood for a sec. Yeah, absolutely. I mean not not to compare but to reflect my own experience.

I spent the last from when I started the process, I spent the last 12 months months months trying to figure out just what the topic of my next book was going to be about. And it was the most excruciating 12 months of my life because I I wrote I've written two books. This was my third book that I'm writing. And I wrote chapters, threw them away. I wrote chapters that I thought were quite good and then I read them back and they weren't. And I was overthinking, ruminating, and everything else.

And then 12 months later, I was like, I'm going to write a book about overthinking cuz that's what I've just done for 12 months. Totally. That's what my actual experience rather than, you know, writing from a place of knowing, I'm going to write write from a place of what I'm struggling with and and it just reaches people. reaches people. reaches people. Yeah. But it took me a year to like even come to that conclusion where And did you feel like when you kind of made that choice internally like did it feel easier and did it feel like the words flowed and like so much more but but it was because before I was trying to technically figure out like I had this really good book it did really well and what was good about it like how would I repeat that and what would what would that chapter structure look like if it matches that structure and people said they love that chapter from that book so let me and and it's like this mathematical process which is not how I wrote that first No, it's never.

Yeah. And so then I'm like, wait, why am I trying to be a mathematician? You can only go through what you're going through. Like you can't you can't like change the feelings you have, even if they're feelings that you don't think are going to be marketable or as successful. Like, and then you kind of realize like that's actually more compelling than listening to you pretend to be going through something and pretend to have a perspective on something. Like people relate to that. That's awesome, dude. I'm pumped that you went through that, too.

Like, no. Yeah. No, no, no. Well, not pumped you went through it, but I'm pumped that you got through it and that we're able to talk about it with like the perspective. perspective. perspective. No, I'm pumped. Now I'm pumped I went through it, too, because for that year you just feel like you're pulling your hair out going totally, what are we doing here? doing here? doing here? I wonder if the next time that you and I have to do something new. Like I always wonder, are we going to be able to like is this going to help us the next time?

I'm always like, am I just going to be back to zero? Do we just forget? Do we just get amnesia and like start again? or like I hope that this experience for me and that experience for you like lets you you you have a little bit of of like confidence for the next time. Um that's like what I'm trying to like I'm trying to tell myself like I just went through this hard thing creatively um and I going to have to be more creative in my life.

Like let's hope that these lessons actually help me instead of like just forgetting about them and getting lost in the sauce. Yeah. I I feel like writing down these lessons protects them for me personally. Like I'm like I need to journal about that. I need to write about it. I need to cement what you just said, like this idea, this moment where we're having this interaction and be like, Noah said to me, "I hope we don't forget these things." things." things." Dude, I do the same thing.

I write whenever I like I used to write a good song or a song that I thought was good. Uh, and then I would put in my notes app like everything I did to get that good song. And it's funny cuz when I'm going through something hard, I'll look back at that. I'm like, "Okay, I'm trying and it's not working." Uh, so yeah, it's complicated. Creativity is so annoying because it like it makes you start from scratch every time and it makes you it forces you to like use that muscle memory.

Um and it's you know it's just aing mind. aing mind. aing mind. I mean sorry to swear but it's just a mind mind mind it's a mine man. Yeah. I I had I remember like Rick Rubin was here like maybe two years ago now and like and then you get Rick who's sitting there just going like yeah don't make anything for anyone like just make it for yourself. And I'm like yeah like I wish but but it's hard. It's like, you know, it's like and everyone's journey is so different and like everyone's like creative process is so different that it could be so hard to like find the the bridge between two people.

It's difficult. I mean, again, like I'm jealous of people that just like can write every day and love what they're making and like not have to worry about how it's being perceived or I feel like writer's block, it's so closely tied to like anxiety and like the self-fulfilling prophecy that you have. Like if you worry about something so much it's going to happen and then you worry about worrying and then you're worrying about worrying and then it's like it's here you know like there you did it dude you're like congrats like I hope that I learn in the in the process before I get to that place like to recognize what is happening internally and like question it instead of just letting it flow and going to this shitty spot.

spot. spot. It's almost like we trust every thought. Totally. Totally. Totally. And that's such an interesting idea. It's like if you trusted everything you read on social media and believed it to be true without checking it. But we do that in our mind all day all the time. And any thought doesn't get any evidence checked. There's no proof needed. There's no there's no rebuttal. Like it's like a weird arrogance that everything you think has to be correct. But But But and then you're anxious about that.

Like it's dude, you get lost. Anxious arrogance maybe is the way to think about it. Oh my god. I know. It's a little bit of like this ego thing where it's like, oh well, I've been especially cuz we all are really doing this in one way or another from since we were children. I think like expressing ourselves creatively. So, it's tied up in your inner self and this like you don't want to betray this like process that you've cultivated, but like I never question that maybe that process actually wasn't very healthy and there's a real way that I can make good music without having to suffer all the time for it.

And we look at people like Van Go and and these famous artists that like battered themselves to create and we think that's has to be how it is. Um, and I subscribed to that theory for a long time and I'm just now like trying to unwind this idea that I have to be unhealthy physically, um, or in pain in some emotional way in my life to create good music. Like, there has to be a way to access it without living it all the time. Spring is here and Springfest is happening now at Lowe's.

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See lowe's.com for details. Mulch offer excludes Alaska and Hawaii. Did you believe that if you heal too much it would reduce your creativity? 100%. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. You used to believe that? Yeah, I used to believe that for sure. Like I was like I I mean it came into the conversation when I started taking medication for my anxiety when I was in high school OCD diagnosis more recently. Like these problems were really hard for me and were disrupting my ability to wake up in the morning and to just be a human being.

But I was holding off on getting the help that I really needed for a long time because I was so afraid of it dulling my creativity. And then I would look at my creativity and be like, well, this is not pretty very good either. Like I'm not making anything good right now. I can barely put my pen to the paper. I can barely even process a single thought. And I was like, I don't want to get help because I'm worried that I'll be happy and I won't care about making something and I won't feel pain and it won't be painful enough for my audience and it won't be uh scare like the feelings won't be real enough for my audience.

Um, and it just took like kind of just saying, well, I don't want to live like this anymore. And if it means that I write a happy song, then like I need to get up in the morning. And and I found that I was still sad in a way that felt more manageable and and I still had feelings and deep thoughts about things, but I wasn't getting sidebarred by rabbit holes of obsession and rabbit holes of anxiety anymore. Um, and it really was a turning point for me making this record was just like wow wow wow taking the the step off of the the cliff so to speak into the unknown and not again it's a control thing like I can't control this and it sucked but when I let go is when I like found it again.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember I was in Joshua Tree and I like have never been to Joshua Tree. I'm not even like particularly a huge like desert guy. Kind of scares me but I was like I'm struggling a lot in my life. I need to go to Joshua Tree and like find myself and make music. and I had just gotten diagnosed with OCD and it's something I had suspected for a long time and there's so many varying kind of branches of this problem and so I never really knew where I fit into the conversation.

So I didn't want to like get the diagnosis and be like I have OCD now. I was kind of scared. But I just gotten diagnosed with OCD and I was in Joshua Tree and I was feeling so miserable. I'm in this beautiful Airbnb like I'm in the desert. I'm like this isn't making me feel connected. Oh [ __ ] And I was like so lost in that. And so, uh, being somewhere beautiful and realizing that the problem was like beyond where I was or where I put myself or how nice the studio or the collaborators were, like realizing that I just wasn't going to be able to do it on my own was like that Joshua Trade trip was like horrible, but also incredibly enlightening cuz I was like, "All right, that was my last try." Just like hoping life fixes this for me.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean like I I imagine it's also one of the things you address in the documentary is that it's challenging because you don't want to like air your family's dirty laundry like you know it's like this a lot of what you write about is your family and is your upbringing and talk to me about how hard it is when it's like what you're writing from is your family and you love obviously it's obvious in your doc that you love each other and you have a supportive relationship but at the same time it's hard to do that.

It's complicated man. I think actually like one of my biggest regrets is not knowing how to communicate how I was feeling and choosing to do it through the songs that were then marketed to millions of people and heard by millions of people without having that conversation first of saying hey mom and dad like this is what I'm feeling about you know your guys's divorce or or whatever is going on our lives uh my dad's you know brain injury and and these things that like I never really knew how to talk to them about I'm much better at saying it in songs it's I don't want to cowardly, but it's just I'm afraid of that conflict sometimes.

And so I'm like I go back to this like, okay, well, I'm going to write it down like angsty teen like I'm going to go like write it down. But like when you're writing things down in a journal versus when you're sending them to uh every streaming platform and every marketing thing in the world, the effect that I feel like it could have on people is that they feel blindsided. Um, and my mom has always told me like she was happy that I was getting those feelings out.

She's been so supportive. my dad as well, but I still felt like this regret of being like, I wish I had talked to you guys about this first because it would have been so much healthier. It would have been more fair to you. It would have been probably more helpful for me. Um, and it's it's hard to like, like you said, air the dirty laundry uh in a way that's fair to everybody. And I don't think I did that in my last album. So, I been really trying to be intentional about making sure I communicate what I'm saying and why I'm saying it to my parents, my family in this next album.

uh making sure they have a fair shake shake to say hey maybe that makes me feel uncomfortable like please don't do that and the documentary is like another huge extension of that like allowing these people into my home to my parents' homes into their marriage into my dad's injury into my issues with my body and and things that will you know will be seen in the documentary. It's been really important to like be communicative with each other about what people are comfortable with, why we're doing it, why it's important to have hard moments in there, and how it can be helpful for people.

Uh like I had a conversation with my sister and I'm like always checking in to make sure they're okay with this. And like it's been this big anxiety thing for me of like I'm so worried that you guys feel like I'm using you or like trying to exploit our pain or our experiences for my own gain. Um my sister said it best. She's just like, "Is it painful to see um dad from an outside angle like this?" Yes. But like she's like, "I really think someone who's going through this in their own way with their parents or their friend or family or partner is going to be helped by it." And so there's like a greater greater greater good to those like just uncomfortable, vulnerable feelings.

And that made me feel better like hearing them be supportive of it and not be like mad at me or scared or um it's helped me kind of grapple with my own anxiety about about all of it and about and showing the world, my family and my life. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that conversation with your sister. I didn't know that. When when was the first time you kind of talked to your parents about this and and what was that interaction like? like? like? It was hard cuz like when we started the documentary, I don't think I was fully aware of like where it was going to go.

And I think obviously that's kind of how all good documentaries are. like it starts out with something that feels small or control and then it becomes something I don't know more universal and and deeper and so you know I'm just like hey yeah they're coming to film some stuff and then suddenly you know my dad and I are like having this really intimate moment on the porch or the conversation in the yard and I think the best way that I've always done been able to be vulnerable is like conversations like this where you're not like here are the things that you have to say like it just kind of happens naturally but I think we were kind of just like yeah they're just going to come film some stuff and I'll probably play the acoustic guitar and we'll leave and then kind of like developed into this more intimate like vulnerable piece.

Uh so I think they learned with me as things were happening uh what it was going to be like. And man like the first time watching the documentary cuz you see it all get made around you. You're kind of able to like pretend it's not happening. And I think we all were kind of like we'll think about that later. But like when it finally was time to watch it was like one of the most stressful days of my entire life, man. Yeah. It was Yeah. kind of Have you watched it with the whole family yet?

Yeah. So, it was uh it was I got it first and I one of the most poorly timed edibles of my entire life. I was literally I was like coming up on this like weed edible and the documentary gets sent to my inbox and like they're going to I'm going to send it to my family, but I really want to watch this first. Um and so watching this 2hour long, hour and a half long movie about myself was like oh my god. Yeah. And I'd never seen all the pieces together and how like emotional it was.

And my family and I talked to each other like honestly and emotionally all the time, but like we kind of were like, "No, let's have a drink and I'll see you tomorrow." Like you don't have to think about it again. So like knowing that this is just like there for everyone to watch and that I was going have to send it to my mom and brother and sister who are literally right down the road um was really scary. And so yeah, it is scary. I sent it to them and like I think that their response like I guess I was hoping that they'd be like this is amazing, great, send it off to Hollywood.

Uh, I think for them it was an emotional experience as well and it was like challenging in a lot of ways to watch. I think beautiful at the same time, but challenging them to see not just like seeing yourself on camera, which is weird and like not human, but just seeing how the themes came together and like kind of reminded us of this painful thing that we've had to go through as a family. Uh, family. Uh, family. Uh, and so it was like a lot of conversations at first about how we felt about it, if we wanted to do it or not.

I was ready and willing to be like this, let's not do it then. If if you guys are feeling any type of way about it, let's not do it. It's fine. You know, when we all watched it together as a family, we found ourselves laughing, crying, hugging, and like being so excited. Um because it brought us all a lot closer and it helped us kind of like actually visualize what it's like for my dad, what it's like for my mom, what it's like for all of us in our own way.

Um, and like I remember this feeling of just like this golden week afterwards where like we all just felt super connected to each other and we felt this gratitude and it really has brought my dad and I a lot closer in a lot of ways. There are things that I said in that documentary that I I knew someday he was going to hear but I don't think I ever could have said myself cuz I wasn't brave enough or something or I was too scared. And so like having this vehicle to like tell my dad what I was feeling and tell him how sorry I was for like my impatience with him and how sad I felt about what he had gone through.

And it created this like connection that I think we never really got to have. And um it was really really special and powerful. And like I said at the beginning like I wish every single family could have a chance to watch the way they interact with each other and to have to get to see what it looks like to love each other. um and to be a son, a daughter, a father, a mother um on screen because it really helped us. It's fascinating when that process becomes therapy becomes therapy becomes therapy and healing almost.

Did it make your parents readress any of the things you brought up? Like did it start new conversations that hadn't happened before where they said, "Oh, when you said this or when you felt this, like this is what was going through our life." life." life." Yeah, it did. It did. And you know, I'm like I said, I'm still learning how to talk about it. But I I do feel like it helped us address why our reservations were there. And a lot of times reservations are our like fears were not even about like what's actually being shown.

It's about us grappling with it being out being out being out for sure. for sure. for sure. You know, like I remember thinking about this thing with my dad or I'm like, "Oh, I don't want anybody to like see my dad as vulnerable or like going through this hard thing." Um, and I think the truth was that I was grappling with my own like shame or whatever about it and my own like embarrassment for having my own vulnerabilities or and so it wasn't even about like what's on screen.

It was about my own internal dialogue about it. And so I think that was really important and it opened up a lot of conversations about like my dad loves this movie. He's seen it. This isn't about him even in this moment. This is about my own [ __ ] And so I need to work through this and stop being like projecting my own fears onto my onto these other people in my life. Um which was really important and a hard thing to accept. But I think a lot of us had that realization and that was really healthy I think to kind of express that to each other.

Um and you know painful things like we don't always want to talk about them all the time. And it with people living all over the country and people being in different walks of life and my family and my life, like it was nice to have to kind of force ourselves to confront some of these feelings. Um, and it was really healthy. healthy. healthy. Yeah. It's uh I'm only sharing this because it's reminiscent of a conversation I had a couple of months ago with uh Chris Hemsworth who made a documentary about his father's Alzheimer's.

Alzheimer's. Alzheimer's. Oh wow. And so it's about his dad's journey and he's forgetting details and and he felt the same way as you did where it was like am I like putting my dad's story out there like this like and then what he said was when he watched it, it was really emotional for him and his dad to watch it but it was actually most amazing to watch his sons watch it watch it watch it cuz they watched it and they were like we want to spend more time with grandpa.

That's amazing. like like and he was like that was you know and it's it's that kind of thing where I'm listening to you going like this is something that your family has come closer together over it which is why you're saying like you wish every person could almost make a mini dock about their life and and not even share it publicly like it sounds like a healing experience healing experience healing experience honestly it' be a cool like that therapy thing to do. It's not it be very expensive expensive expensive but no totally and like so much of what we feel other people are going through is really just a projection of how we are experiencing our own pain.

I think like my dad is theing man. Uh he is happy doing his thing. He's loves his life. um there are struggles like in any person's life and he has um you know he has had to struggle through this injury but a lot of it was just me worrying about him and like making it seem like it was his for some reason his responsibility to feel that same worry that I had and it's not people experienced their pain differently and I learned a really good lesson through making this documentary that like my view of the world and view of people's trauma isn't always accurate and it's not fair to like suggest that they're going through what I think they're going through all the time.

I mean, that's huge. If if there was any lesson we could all learn. Totally. That's that's huge. Like to be able to actually go, "Oh, wait. The way I process stuff isn't the way people process stuff." And just cuz I'm judging this thing, doesn't I mean, that's that's huge. And what a great lesson to gain from gain from gain from it's helped me like they're using the word selfish. My therapist is like, "Say self focused, you But like a lot of times we think we're helping people or we think we're speaking some truth into the air and it's like that's not at all what's going on with this person.

Um and so getting to see that up close and getting to you know my my thing is I where my family and I are like oh my god we have to send this to dad like he has to watch this like we're all so nerfed how he's going to feel. Uh I sent to my dad he's like I love it. Like very simply like it's great buddy love it. I'm like wow that was like not what I expected you to say. like it takes this huge weight off my shoulders and like makes me happy that he's like no I know I know what's going on like you know it wasn't like this like kids gloves hey dad how you look he was like oh hell yeah yeah yeah I look cool dude that's amazing and and you haven't even had the premiere yet so I can't imagine how proud he's I mean I know that moment on the porch I mean seeing him choke up and I kind of be like all right we just got to you know I mean that's he's so proud like man that's one of the most like I I mean, I remember Tell me about that moment.

Yeah. I mean, I remember it's hard for my I think for me and my dad sometimes to like address these things and so it's hard to get emotional about it and so much of me like wants to have that conversation and like to hear him say that he gets it and I just feel like that was the closest we got. And the fact that it was able to happen for the documentary is amazing, but just for me that moment was really important. Just like seeing him kind of be like, I know it's complicated and it's hard.

Um, and just to feel to see his pride in me and to see his love for me in that moment, even after I'm sitting there like critiquing his ability to play the song, which I regret the I just feel like such a dick. But I was like, it's like, you know, your dad, you become a little kid again. You're just like, "Come on, dude. Just play the right thing." But just seeing him like get emotional. Um, but just I could see in his eyes like this this conversation that we haven't really had, but I could see like it happened like between us in that moment like telepathically almost and that was like just really really uh really special for me.

me. me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was something that I really really uh will never forget. And I'm really grateful to people that helped make this documentary for like pushing in a way like us to these moments and to these interactions because it's so easy just to drift away and drift through life and just like go home for Thanksgiving or go home uh and go out to dinner and um Asan Zar had a great bit about like going to see your parents and like how it's the same thing every time and you leave and like you're happy to leave but you feel guilty and I I felt that a lot of just like I feel like I came here and just didn't we didn't solve or work through anything.

We just like were together and that can be beautiful, but sometimes you want more. And like that those moments with my family like allowed us to confront a lot of things and allowed us to have like moments that we'll remember forever. It's beautiful, man. Thank you. I can tell it is emotional. Yeah, it makes me emotional, man. I uh I just can love my family so much, dude. And like getting to be close to them in this way in this journey has been incredibly complicated for everybody.

like, you know, having my family be really exposed to the world, even just without this documentary, just through my album and through promotion of it and through people coming into connection with where we're from um and who we are has been really challenging and this just felt like a platform for us to kind of like grapple with that together. And even after and like the editing and the conversation about what we wanted to be in the movie, it just allowed us to like heal a little bit, I think.

And like just allowed me to to find like peace with a lot of it. And uh yeah, it's it'sing crazy, man. You've talked so much about today like kind of we've been weaving this idea of mental health and just how important is to you. The documentary you speak about it quite openly. Has success made mental health harder in some ways or has it made it better in some ways? It's so hard to say. Like my mental health challenges weren't going anywhere. Whether I became a musician, like a touring like professional musician or whatever I am, they weren't going anywhere.

I would have been interested to see how they manifested. Uh I think it's introduced this lifestyle and this like level of like like I said this like self-focused kind of business lifestyle has created a lot of mental health challenges for me. also has kind of allowed me to confront them in a way that maybe like if I went to college and went and got a job in an office or somewhere I could probably more easily not ever deal with it. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

So, in a lot of ways, I think it's helped me, but it's also introduced a lot of different challenges into my life that you see in the documentary, but also just wouldn't be there without music and touring and creative struggle and just all the things that go along with being in this like weirding industry. industry. industry. Yeah. What's your what's your most daily or regular experience from a mental health point of view that that you that you go through? I think a lot of it is just like self-image and that like extends to like physical image but also like mental image.

Like I worry that I've just wasted so much time like hating who I am. Uh and just like being aware of this thing that's happening to me that like is like feels like it's grinding me down sometimes and like and knowing that I have this thing and that knowing that it could be better but it's not right now. Like that's probably my most like I wake up and I'm like why do I feel like [ __ ] Like I'm pissed. It's a beautiful morning. The birds areing chirping.

It's beautiful outside. I've you know career success aside. I have like I have this like lovely little life and I wish I could wake up and not be like miserable for no reason it feels like sometimes. And being aware of like those moments that I just can't feel connected. Uh it's really lonely. Yeah, I think that's probably my like daily it's like that's my daily driver that feeling. Um I think I kind of that feeling escalates and escalates and I it comes to like these bigger more intense like episodes for me of mental health.

Um but that's what is kind of the backdrop to my day is like darn I feel like [ __ ] this sucks and I have to just like wade through it every day. Um and it gets easier and there's days that are better and worse but like generally I just kind of am feeling like I wish I didn't feel depressed, you know? Yeah, I felt it was really brave for you to address the body dysmorphia image dysmorphia image dysmorphia image approach. I I wasn't expecting that and I think you kind of really went there.

It felt so courageous in one sense to do that and of course honest. Yeah. I I feel like I don't know and I say it in the documentary just like I don't know where I fit into like the world of this thing I'm going through. I'm never really confronted in a way that's like and this is how I feel about my body. It's like it's just this thing that lives in the back of my brain that is like more prominent than other times. And it really came out in the documentary and like watching that back is like even I mean man even my mom was just like I had no idea like I think she knew I had something like that but she didn't know like how much it was affecting me and even just seeing myself I'm like I don't feel like that right now but like I do feel like that a lot and it's like it's hard when the thing that you really compartmentalize and you lock away like is now there.

And so it's scary for me even to talk to you about it because I don't want to say the wrong thing. I don't want to I I know how much of an issue this is for people and how it can ruin lives and and how hard it is for people's mental health. Um that I I'm always so afraid that I'm like I don't want to represent an issue because I'm afraid of like saying the wrong thing or giving advice or like I don't know of like making it feel like I know what I'm talking about cuz I have no idea.

It's just this thing that is there within me. And um yeah, really really difficult concept because it's so tied up in who you are and the feelings you've had since you were a kid that like it's hard to describe like the body dysmorphia problem succinctly. And I as you can hear right now struggling I struggle to do it but it's complicated man. And it was easy I think it's easy to say like I want to talk about that but when it comes time to talk about it like I don't feel eloquent at all.

I don't feel articulate. I feel like it's just this like dreamlike stance that I that I have to fall into. It's weird. Yeah. I think it's a strange challenge that we put on ourselves and other people to properly articulate these extremely nuanced daily regular feelings that are that don't always make sense. Like in one sense, we're trying to finally package up some perfect words around something that changes how we feel about it daily. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh and and it's almost it's almost an impossible task.

impossible task. impossible task. Totally. Totally. Totally. Because you're absolutely right that you can feel something one day, people feel it differently. I I just felt like you don't see a lot of men especially being able to say that publicly and so I think it's going to help a lot of men and just even coming to terms with it themselves. I remember like I have this song called The Shape of My Shadow which was weirdly one of those like hour moments where I like felt really aware and understanding of my struggle with it and like it goes away.

But in that moment I wrote the song and uh played it live on World Mental Health Day in Florida a few years ago. Um, and was like hearing it being heard for the first time. Uh, and then walking off stage and like having people in my in my crew and people in my life come up to me and be like, "Dude, like men especially be like, I I go through that, too." Wow. Wow. Wow. And like that was [ __ ] cool that you did that, bro. Like, I feel that one.

And like people that I wouldn't expect. I think you think like body dysmorphia and like you're looking like you're like physically looking at somebody and like how do you look? Like is this person look overweight? Then like they'll probably connect with does this person look really skinny? They'll probably It's not how it is, man. like it's almost not even about your body at all. all. all. It's for me it's not even I don't think it's even about like what I actually appear to be. It's how we think of ourselves.

So these people coming up and saying that to me was like this is like important like this this is something really really difficult to articulate and to talk about and like the fact that I just had three people that probably wouldn't have said anything to me if I never played that song come up and say like hey dude like thank you or like I get that and that's huge. It was really special, man. Eye opening and it like makes you feel like more sensitive to people and like you just never [ __ ] know what someone's going through, man.

Like you really don't. really don't. really don't. Yeah. You don't. And uh it's easy to like look at somebody and be like, "Your life must be so sick." And then be like, "Man, you have noing clue." Yeah. Yeah. And and you assume that, right? If someone's like put together or looks a certain way or maybe they're making a decent amount living or whatever it may be, it's like we just go, "Okay, well, you don't have any real problems." So, you know? Yeah. Oh, it's such a good point, man.

I always whenever I come to LA and do like anything like this, I'm always like, "Oh yeah, like I got driven here in the black SUV and I'm going to come here and complain about my shit." Like people in the world right now going through so much and it it does feel like there's a push and pull of like how do I talk about what I'm going through without like being insensitive to like people who are struggling in much more significant or just different but significant ways um while also not discrediting what I've gone through at the same time.

It's been a real challenge for me. uh to talk about. I hope that in the documentary people can see that through line through everybody's life that regardless of sex, creed, class, gender identity, um race, that people can like find things that connect us. Um like these feelings that are painful. I I like to think everybody's experiencing something similar in some way. And maybe that's not true, but that's like my hope is that there's like world peace, but like we all can have a conversation no matter where we're from about our mental health and how it's affecting us and like we can hear similarities in some things.

And that's what I hope is true because with everything, you know, that that's going on in the world right now, um, like how, you know, divided the world is and how awful people are being treated right now that we can find ways to be brought together through vulnerability and and through being honest with each other about how we feel. So, is is that how you think about making an impact on the world with everything you see? Is that Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. where you focus? I think just trying to be like completely honest about how I feel like whenever I can because then it doesn't feel like you have to perform.

And I was talking to somebody last night at this like weird party thing. Uh, and I was just like, dude, if you start making music like trying to sound like somebody, then when the time comes to like you want to be yourself, you it's going to feel like you're lying. you're lying. you're lying. Yeah. Yeah. So, like if you can just be as honest as you can and like accept whatever that does for you socially, career-wise, emotionally, like live and die by that because then you never have to change and you never have to adjust your presentation.

All you have to do is reach within which you've been doing forever anyway. So, yeah, that's well said. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's I think that's the difference also between actors and musicians like you know an actor does have to pretend to be someone and that does affect their personality and it does affect their self-image and it it it can deeply affect everything from the way they speak to the way they look or anything. anything. anything. Have you done acting? I have not in any Yeah.

Not in any major way. way. way. I always wonder how you bring I wonder if the best actors bring in like they bring in more of themselves in a way to this different character so that it like creates something relatable. Yes. Yeah. So I think there's I forget what the technique is called from some study that I've done in the space with some clients that I have uh who who are actors and they talk about that where it's like if you you can't pretend to have an emotion.

So you got to find the emotion or the experience within yourself to yourself to yourself to to bring it out but at the same time I think a lot of people if you're especially if you're doing a biopic right right right you don't you you can find the emotion within yourself but ultimately you're still becoming someone else to some degree. degree. degree. Is there a part of you that feels that way? Like how do you get comfortable approaching that? It almost reminds me like of the music and the documentary of just like just like just like how do you go back into this space over and over again?

Like it's painful, dude. It's got to be painful cuz we all have like smaller I think some people have bigger parts of that that kind of character than than others do. But like we all I think we all have like cynical parts of us and like for sure and like angry parts of us, but like some people just don't have as much access or don't have as big of a angry bone inside of them. like it's got to be hard to have to like live in that moment.

moment. moment. I think that's actually where real compassion comes from. Like when you can look at your own heart and notice that it has all of these abilities and has aspects of all of these things that you may not live on a daily basis, but you start seeing it and you go, "Oh, I I see how that comes out for someone else because I've seen that in me." I know. Even if it's tiny, if that makes sense. Totally, man. That's why I always think like the goal isn't to be like a perfect person at all.

Like the goal is to understand the parts of you that make you happy and like try to access those, but it's also important to dip into the stuff that like you don't like and to question it and to approach it and look at it. In the documentary, I say like I'm finally looking at this thing. Like it used to be I think, you know, talking about body dysmorphia, fear, just mental the mental illness stuff. Like it used to be this thing that I was like ashamed of in such a big way that I wouldn't even want to look at it.

Like I would just like sprint past the door where the thing was inside. And now I'm like finally like just like brushing it with my hand, you know, and being like, "All right, like this thing is in there. I'm getting better at approaching it. I'm getting better at like understanding that it is there and not being so afraid of it." of it." of it." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um it's that's that journey has been has been helpful for me. Yeah. It's almost like the monster under the bed.

Like if you pretend that it's not there not there not there Mhm. You know it, you're scared. It just gets bigger. Yeah. It just gets bigger and you got to got to go and check and know it's like, oh, okay, brushed apart. You know, it's so important and I think for so long like of course we want to be in the light. We want to do good work, but you can't avoid the darkness and those elements that exist as you said our shame and guilt. Yeah, you can like it does find other ways to manifest and I think it's much healthier to like in my opinion like sitting down with a therapist is like the most important thing you can do with these feelings is like expressing them in a safe unbiased place where like you could say whatever you want and not feel like you're going to be judged for it cuz if you don't I do feel like we have to find a way to cope and we have to find a way to keep not feeling it and like addiction you know for me eating binge eating not eating is how I deal with a lot of stuff and I'm realizing that it's because I don't talk about it enough.

And so I keep wanting it to go away and go away and go away. But then I find myself engaging in these behaging in these behaviors that really make me unhappy and make me feel even worse. And it's this horrible cycle of just like the thing you think you're doing to help is actually making it harder and then it just kind of repeats itself and repeats itself and and you do it for soing long that the grooves in your brain there's a little train going through your head that only knows one path and like it gets deeper and deeper and deeper and it never has a way to go anywhere else because you just have lived this one routine for so long.

And so, you know, going to therapy, which I've been doing my whole life, but I feel like I wasn't really doing in a real way until like five or six, seven years ago where I started to really like go into it. What was the difference between going to therapy and then doing therapy? Yeah. So, like I said, I like my mom and my dad were always so supportive of me like and my siblings going to get help and going to talk about our feelings. We've all kind of gone through a lot of similar mental health struggles.

Thanks, mom and dad. No. Uh, and they've been so supportive and like always sent us a therapist, but I think like for a while I was just immature and like didn't want to talk to somebody. And also it's hard when you're a kid and like totally to be like, oh thising 48-year-old dude is like here to ask you about all this stuff and like obviously you're like I don't want to talk about it. Um, and you can kind of live your life for a long time like saying the right things but not actually like really letting anyone hear anything.

Yeah. and saying things that sound like you're being emotionally vulnerable or picking and choosing uh different things that you'll talk about and certain things that you won't talk about. And it's all connected. So when you start doing that, you're actually not really touching the whole thing, which is it's all connected to like one um great larger mental health thing. Doesn't sound very eloquent, but I guess what I'm trying to say is like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. is I didn't really commit myself to getting better because I wanted to selfishly selfcenteredly do it on my own.

um and only like express certain fears and emotions to people because I was still afraid of talking about them. And I think when I started seeing this new therapist and so much of it is about the person you see cuz I've had bad experiences with therapists and like once you open up to somebody and they like they don't respect that becomes reallying hard to go talk to somebody else. Like else. Like else. Like it's like you open up to a friend and like a breakup. Yeah.

And then someone like uses that against you or they laugh at you or they like make you feel crazy. It's not like okay I'll try it in the next person. It's like no I'm never touching that again. again. again. It's like a breakup. Like you hurt me and like I'm not opening myself up again. again. again. Uh so it was kind of being willing to open up again, finding the right person and then like feeling safe. Uh and then slowly just like realizing how much more there was than the kind of uh headlines of what I thought my feelings and issues were and like being asked questions that made me dig a little deeper and like being willing to cry and say, "I don't want to talk about this." And what was really complicated for me and what's still complicated is like and I do say this in the documentary is is being a mental health advocate, you know, like having this mental health charity, which like we're also proud of.

Beautiful. Really beautiful. Present. Thank you. And presenting myself as someone that like has an answer or has like a focus and like my is going to be really open and emotionally vulnerable all the time and then not feeling like I was really practicing that in my personal life. It makes it hard in therapy to like accept that I don't have all the answers and it kind of creates this feeling like you're not being honest about who you are. Um, and that was really difficult. What What's the What's the best question your therapist ever asked you?

I think it's like do you want this to be what's happening to you in in some ways? Like is it so much easier for you to cause yourself pain and to hurt yourself and is that actually something that you're is bringing you comfort? Like is this like in pain that you're inflicting on yourself emotionally occasionally physically? Like is it actually something that you have become comfortable with? It's like is it this longtime friend of yours that you don't want to leave because you feel like you're betraying something and like betraying this childhood pain or whatever it is.

That was a great question. It made me think about it cuz I think I've always been like I hate this thing. Like I want to get rid of this but like no I sometimes like no I don't. Yeah. Like and she's like I don't know if you do. Like know if you I don't know if you do. Like do you because it feels like interesting interesting interesting you want the comfort of this thing you've had for a long time and it's become such a big part of your life that you don't know who you are without it.

And it's scarier to be someone that's happy but not not familiar with something than to be unhappy but feel like you're in the safety of your own unhappiness. Oh that was that sounded great. Wow my reaction. Damn, dude. Damn, dude. Damn, dude. I got to put that in the song. Uh but that was like the most important thing uh I think she's asked me and she's asked me she's just so wonderful. I don't I hope my therapist isn't watching this but thank you so much. Uh but that question really helped me understand the context of what I was really context of what I was really feeling.

feeling. feeling. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think a lot of people would get a lot from asking that question to themselves or hopefully going through that with their therapist. I think you said after in the 2024 Grammy party, you were like talking about parties earlier. You were saying you felt like the least cool guy there. Mhm. there. Mhm. there. Mhm. And it was like that was the feeling you were having at that time and that goes back to that image and grappling with that that that emotion.

And is there a bit more peace now because that was your first time being there, right? It was like your nominate like do you think that is natural when you're doing something new and first time and then it goes away? Like what's your Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I I think like I think I really like wanted the experience to be what I'd always dreamed of cuz I'd always dreamed of that experience. And so like I got in there and the vision of like what I thought I was going to feel and what I thought it was going to look like just wasn't what it was.

And I just kind of felt like outside of all of it and it wasn't anyone's fault. It was really just me not having the confidence to like engage with this new experience and wanting to be comfortable. Um and so I felt really isolated and then my mom is like talking to everybody and she everyone loves her and like I'm like damn my mom's so cool. And I'm just sitting here. my mom and Brandy Carlile are talking and like my mom loves Brandy and and like I just kind of felt like the kid in the cafeteria that like didn't have anyone to sit with.

Um and just knowing that like the end of the night the only like measure of success I was I was putting into the night was if I won this Grammy or not. Um because I had built this thing up to be soing important to me. Uh and so it kind of made me feel like I had no purpose in the room. I felt like my purpose was um was no longer needed and that was no one's fault and it was on me for putting all the stock into this award.

Um, but I didn't feel cool and then I lost along with, you know, many others who like I'm always curious to see how they would deal with it because I was so sad and I was like obviously happy for the person I won truly and like grateful that I was even nominated and like just like walking into a room full of people who like I was so worried were going to be like disappointed and like not mad at me but like almost like their experience was that they wanted me to win.

Like I was projecting how I thought everyone wanted this night to go. And so like walking into the room with like my family, my friends, my wife, like all these people, my team who had worked so hard and like just feeling that disappointment like just really made me feel like I was on an island and that I like had let everybody down in my life. And I feel like I let my fans down. I like I I feel like I let my fans down. I was like I wanted this so bad.

Like I'm sorry guys. We wanted it for you too. Yeah, they I think they did, man. Um, I know that's not the case, but this time it's like I feel like I've gone through so much since then and like re-evaluating what I care about and like realizing that what I care most about is the story that I can tell with my music and the music that I can make and that no one can can take it away from me. No one can vote on it and and no one else can have it.

Uh, and like nurturing this thing. And so coming back, you know, having a new album, feeling like I'm really excited about it, really proud of it, proud of the journey that I went on to get to making this album, which was really difficult. And and like that's where my confidence is coming from right now. Not from whether I have good songs or not, but just knowing that I went through something and and I'm on the other side now. Uh when I was at the 24 Grammys, I was like grappling with all this creative insecurity and this insecurity about where my career was going to go.

And I thought that a Grammy was going to like like that like thing on the image you see on like like a meme or whatever like the guy puts like one piece of duct tape on the giant exploding water tank. Like I think that was what I was hoping the Grammy would be for me. That's good. That's really good. Um and like it was never going to be that anyways. And so like knowing that now makes me more like at peace with just like being able to be in this conversation, being able to be um amongst the peers that I have that are incredible musicians.

And um yeah, I I feel I don't feel cooler, but I feel more comfortable in like my own skin and my own presence. Yeah, I really appreciate the way you process that for us cuz I think 99% of us are always dealing with situations where we felt like we lost or failed or but it's it seems like you've addressed a really powerful pattern that I think's come up a few times in that when you're watching the documentary with your father, you're like, "Wait, what's his experience of it?" And even now when you're talking about being at the Grammys, you're like, "What's everyone else's expectation experience of it?" And it seems like you've really addressed like a really powerful pattern of something that seems to come up for you, which is always projecting what you think of other people's experiences.

And that's really powerful that you can see that as being a sign of whenever you're doing something big or incredible. Bro, it's projection is like so difficult because it's it forces you to question like everything you've thought about other people's perception of you. Um, and also like as my career has like grown like there's I mean you saw it today. I most lovelying people around me in the world. They're wonderful. They're wonderful. They're wonderful. Amazing. Every single person that I get to work with like is awesome.

And that's very rare, you know, especially in the music industry where you get people that are like there for the wrong reasons or whatever. But like when everywhere you go, you have style and hair and PR and management and label and whatever agent and all these people around you, like you kind of feel like they're like they like need it to go well. Like that's a projection. And so you start like being like, "Are you guys having fun? Like are you guys doing this? Are you guys enjoying this?

Like did I do good enough for you guys? Dad energy and and kid energy at the same time. same time. same time. Totally, dude. I think like it all ties back to like that being around the dinner table and like wanting to be heard and wanting to be um accepted and and wanting people to think that you have value. And when you can't find that in here in your heart or in your in your your brain, like you needed to be provided by other people. And I'm struggling with that right now.

Like just with my album coming out and just like how I'm going to like take in responses to it, good and and bad. I think like every good comment, every bad comment like have a similar have a similar reaction from me actually. Like they move me so much, you know? Like if I said someone says that I did a good job, I'm like, "Yeah, I'm good." Someone says that I suck, I'm like, "I suck." Like I want to find somewhere in the middle where like I can still have my own belief in myself.

Equilibrium is a great way to put it. I would love to find more of that in my life. Yeah. And it and it's such a hard place to live because we are so used to being really pumped up with the highs. And I always feel like the more pumped up you get with the highs, the more pulled down you get with the lows. And and that's the experience we all have. And all I can say is honestly, I don't even know if I'm allowed to say this with your team listening, but I I listen to what you did send us with the team with my team cuz everyone's a fan and everyone loved it.

And it was just like this is like, you know, Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. just and and it was it was genuinely that experience where we were listening to it and because as we were I was thinking about the interview I was thinking about like I know no one's really thinking about this I mean for whatever it's worth and and I think that equilibrium is what we all need to rise for and it's something I pursued deeply and and focus on and I found it was only when I could detach equally from the good and the bad totally and it was like if I kept letting the good pump me up the bad was always going to hit me and so I had to find and it wasn't rejecting the good cuz that also didn't work cuz for a while I tried to like reject good like how do you do it?

Yeah. If someone was like well I'm still working on it too. I haven't fully figured it out but I feel like I'm getting closer all the time. So in the beginning I was like same as what you're saying. Someone says something good amazing. If someone says something bad I feel sad. feel sad. feel sad. Then I did the opposite where I was rejecting both. So if someone said something good I'd be like all right whatever. Like I don't need to know. And if someone says something bad I'd be like I don't need to know.

That's where that's the part I'm at now. Yeah. And I was like, that doesn't work either because now and then and then what I started to realize was I I allowed the good to go in deeper and I allowed the bad to almost be filtered more clearer. And what I mean by that is instead of the good going to my head and my ego and my that that kind of like arrogance, it was going to my heart as fuel for like this is why I do what I do.

So someone said to me like hey your work you know would you like your work helped me to save my marriage or not commit suicide or whatever it is like I was like oh let me really access that that that like don't just take it as like this buzz like go yeah it's like take it take it where it lands and then when you get back when you get feedback or you get the bad it's like oh let me not take that to my heart and let me actually allow that to be like let me get the clarity of what could I improve or what could I work on that's so complicated man but so smart what you just said it's subtle it's very subtle But it's helping at least.

I'm not saying it's the end. I I think there's multiple layers to it. Can I ask you more about that? Of course. Of course. Of course. Sorry to interrupt you. Like letting the good in. And I totally feel that cuz I think I've started to do that as well. It's like this isn't just like a dopamine hit. Like I'm not putting a zin in my mouth right now. This is like there's something there that's important that like I have to internalize to help me do it again and do more of it and like to kind of like hone in on that specific thing.

But how when someone says something hurtful to you or like I guess it's like hate versus criticism are two different conversations, but like when someone says something hurtful to you, like how are you taking that in? How do you let that in? Cuz it just like it can like sits in my stomach and like makes me feel like [ __ ] Oh yeah, I I can relate. I definitely relate. Yeah, it's the worst. Uh I think what I've tried to do is to try and separate if possible and not everything is right.

It's like if you've got muddy water, there's mud and water. And my job is to get the water and remove the mud so that I can give drinking water to myself and the people I love. And so my job is to be a sie or a filter to be able to go, all right, let me take the mud out, which is the sting, the the pain, the hurt, the ego, the arrogance, and see if there's any water left for me to hold. to hold. to hold.

And if there is, then that water will actually rest quite beautifully and perfectly. And now I don't have to take it in. It's something I just have to hold and make space for. But I'm not going to hold on to the mud and the sting and the arrow because that's the part that pierces through us and breaks us down, you know? It's really really beautiful, man. Yeah. And it takes practice. Like I'm not saying I do it all the time and I'm not saying I don't fail at this all the time, but it's like I think that practice has been really helpful because accepting both didn't work, rejecting both didn't work.

And the Buddha always talked about the middle path. And it's always like if you're going to hold something, don't hold it too tight, but then you can't hold it too loosely. So it's like, how do you hold something just beautifully? It's almost like how you'd hold your wife's hand. I don't want to go from Buddha to golf, but golf. It's like So you you want to have like a bird in your hand that you're not going to crush, but you won't let get away. That's a Buddha anal that's actually that's got to get you on the golf course.

course. course. But dude, But dude, But dude, that's it. Like if you're holding your wife's hand, wife's hand, wife's hand, you're not going to squish it. Whereas like she never wants like you're like, "Oh, you're never going to leave." But you're never going to hold it softly where you don't have any affection. It's like how would you I feel like holding my wife's hand is like a good that's a really good analogy. I mean that's a really brilliant way to do it. I have like really struggled to accept criticism and like and I mean any like hate or anything like that.

Dude, me too. And I think there is a difference. I think you have to there's some [ __ ] that's like oh you know that's like that. But even criticism can be hard. Like for sure for sure for sure take it so hard and like and I think it's hard because we don't deeply receive in the heart the good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of cuz it's just the dopamine. So it's like we deeply receive the bad. That's so true. I actually feel right. I think that's why we like sometimes I watch like these horror movies and I'm like oh man I hate the part where they're all like happy in the beginning.

I'm like get to the part where they're all getting chopped up. You know, that's like what that's this thing inside of us that like that feels more like for some people or for me it feels more like that's the stuff that reaches you more cuz it's painful and scary. Um I'm not a psycho. Uh but dude, that's really really eye opening for me. Like and I want so bad to work on that. Um and work on accepting the good too. And I I'm like I'm a rejector of the good a lot of the times because it's like this superstition of like if I let any good in then like then it'll all go away cuz I need to be like I said like I need to be in pain.

But there's got to be a way like you said to like to to take it without it killing me but with with also like in a way that I can take the lesson away from it. it. it. I love that man. Uh no you've been amazing today. Like truly I've feel like you're the easiest guy to talk to. You're like so much fun to hang with. like I'm like I hope we get to do this offline but uh I we end every episode with a couple of segments that I want to take you through.

These are fun uh because you're such a fun loving guy. So now before you go though, I want to say thank you man because like getting to talk about this kind of stuff in this way like is not common for me and so it really means a lot like and listening to you care about the questions you're asking and the responses just for me has been like really cool and um you know I've listened to your show and and everyone says like this dude is the man and like you are awesome and like your intention like into the world for what you're doing is really really special and right now I need it more than ever.

So thank you dude like for real. You're the [ __ ] Like I would say this off camera. I'll say it on camera. Like you are awesome, bro. Thank you. Oh man, that that really touched my heart. Thank you for saying that. I mean it, dude. I'm I'm pro I'm practicing what I said earlier, which is really allowing that to to to Then I'll say something shitty to you. Um Um Um Yeah. And then I'm going to try that. No, man. Thank you, bro. It's been It's been been been No, that honestly that means the world for me coming from you and and this is like this hasn't even felt like an interview.

I feel like we've just been like honestly like those are my favorite conversations where I feel like we've just been talking and I can talk to you for another few hours. I was like I know it's [ __ ] it's over. I can keep going. I just want to be mindful of your time. But uh these are some fun segments cuz you're such a fun loving guy to end with. And I was like yeah this guy's music's so deep but he's just such a good time. Like it's it's so All right.

These these are two little games that we got and then we have a final five that we do with every guest. If you've listened you'll know. Uh this is called would you rather. All right. Wave back at someone who wasn't waving at you or tell your server at a restaurant you too after they tell you enjoy your meal. Dude, there's nothing the world worse than waving at someone that doesn't wave back at you, bro. It's got to be the server one because they walk right away.

The wave one, they're like they're going to see that for a few seconds as they pass you. Oh yeah. So that's worse. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Okay. Trip and fall on stage at one of your concerts or forget the lyrics to your song while performing on national TV. I've tripped and fallled so many times. tripped and falling so many times that people are like almost expecting it. So, I'd say trip tripping and falling, forgetting where that sucks. And you just pop right back up. You just got to get back up and go, dude.

dude. dude. That's amazing. Be extremely self-aware or completely oblivious. We were just talking about this. Ooh, I want to say be completely oblivious, but like it would kind of like spit in the face the conversation we just had. I'd say be be completely self-aware because there's always room to you can make yourself a little bit more oblivious if you want to. Yeah. Uh, send a text by accident to the person you're talking about or accidentally like a really old photo while still stalking them on Instagram.

Oh, it's so tough cuz the text one could be terrible depending on what you're saying. But saying. But saying. But liking the old photo is like crazy. Like I've had that happen to me obviously and like people like, "Dude, what are you doing?" The amount of times you must have scrolled to get to that photo. I think sending a text by accident. But those are both bad things. They're both bad. Yeah. Uh, your dog can talk and has a very strong personality that clashes with yours.

Or or your dog can't talk, but they don't really like you. you. you. That's what I already have, dude. I have German shepherds who look at me, they're just like, "Yeah, you're going to play video games again." Another spliff. Great. Like I I think uh probably dogs that don't like me cuz I can convince myself that they're just like look mean. I love it. Uh play around with Tiger Woods, but you accidentally hit him with the ball on the very first hole. Or play the best game of your life at a fancy country club, but you're alone and can never tell a soul how good your game was.

Oh, dude. These are really hard. Uh, Uh, Uh, they're very hard. I think I would probably curl up into a ball and die if I hit Tiger Woods with a golf ball. I think I'd have to just play by myself and play well, which doesn't happen to me anyway. So, perfect. So, it's not really a choice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, this game's called Gut Reaction. Noah, just complete the sentence. My favorite compliment to receive is, receive is, receive is, "I love your shoes. I love getting to come in my shoes." I was actually going to ask you where your shoes are from when you walked in today and I waited cuz I was like, I need a pair of those.

It's happening. It's happening. Exactly. I was genuinely going to ask I need I've been looking for shoes with those laces for a while. Yeah, these kind of laces are nice. Yeah. Yeah. I want I want Yeah. All right. We'll talk about shoes later. My guilty pleasure artist or song is Oh, send me on my way. Rusted root. Okay. All right. Uh, the most unhinged thought I've had this week was Oh, dude. I was driving and I was had this intrusive thought where I was like, it's probably like some OCD [ __ ] but I was like I could just like swerve into that lane and just like everything up, bro.

Like everything. had that thought before. It's so crazy how you're like, "Wait a minute. Why did my brain go there?" there?" there?" You're like, "Oh, Jesus Christ." Then I'm like I'm like then I'm like rearranging my hands to make sure I'm like very much staying on my own lane. But yeah, that's probably my craziest one. one. one. The hill I will die on for no reason is Mac and Cheese is just like not very good. I think it's like a pretty creatively boring dish. Like literally just wheat and cheese melted.

Like I feel like Caveman probably was the first person made mac and cheese. And I think people go a little too crazy for it. People get too excited. They make it in such large quantities as well. You and my wife would have a big debate over that. over that. over that. I know people really don't like when I say that. say that. say that. Yeah, you and my wife would. Uh the weirdest place I've written a song is I wrote a song in the bathroom of JFK one time which was crazy.

Yeah. Like it's like it I think I was hung over and I just it just came to me and I was like this would be a fun story to tell if I finished a song in I wrote a whole song on my phone. It hasn't come out but uh if it ever does that'll be a fun one to tell. tell. tell. Okay. So it's not out yet. Yeah. We're taking a [ __ ] brother. That's what that's what it's going to be called. called. called. Uh, one thing my wife makes fun of me for is uh uh I like to just sit there and we get these big bags of uh Tootsie Roll and mini Tootsie Roll Pops and I'll sit there and one bite just crunch the entire thing.

I'll do like 50 in a row. She calls it crunch time and uh it's just hilarious cuz you hear my teeth like shattering against the lollipops and she's like I think she does I think she just hates it. I don't think she makes fun of it as much but that's a weird thing that I do around my wife. Do you do it on purpose now? I just love it, dude. I can't I don't have the patience to like lick it or whatever. I'm just like like in my teeth.

My incizers do. They just destroy that thing. that thing. that thing. That's amazing. All right. Uh which fellow music star would you call to help you bury a dead body? Uh I'm calling my buddy Nile Horn. I think he would do it with me. think he I think he would do it with me. Nice. All right. Got it. That's a good That's That was quick. You were like I know would do it. He owes me one. Yeah. And And the last one of these forgot reaction.

First artist you'd want next to you on a long bus tour ride. Ooh. Oh my god. my buddy Corey Harper. Uh, awesome singer, songwriter, one of my best friends in the world, and just like the funniest man alive. Yeah. Amazing. Got reaction. You were good. That was great. That was fun. Those are questions. You were really impressive. All right, final five. We ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. These have to be answered in one word to one sentence. Okay. sentence. Okay.

sentence. Okay. Usually one sentence. Uh, first question. What is the best advice you've ever heard or received? Be where your feet are. Great advice. Uh, second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received? received? received? Play it safe. Yeah. Question number three. What's something you used to value that you don't anymore? I don't value like my physical appearance as much as I used to. Wow. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Wish I could expand. Yeah, please. Yeah, please. Yeah, please. Oh, I can. Oh, I only got one sentence.

Yeah. No, no, you like I took me a long time to be comfortable the way I looked, like my face, the way I look. And while I want to be healthy and I want to have better body image, I don't like need people to think I'm attractive. And that's been a cool thing. Just kind of get to be myself. That sounds really freeing. Yeah, it's dope. Yeah, that's awesome, man. I love hearing that. Question number four. What's something that you didn't value that you value now?

My time. I think I was I value my time more than I ever have. I always wanted to grind so hard and like be the dog that just like works as hard or harder than anybody else. And now I'm like so much like this is my time. I'm going to do what makes me feel good in this moment instead of like feeling like I need to be doing a million things. million things. million things. I love that. And fifth and final question. We ask this to every guest on the show.

If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? That's a great that is a great question. I was gonna say using your blinker when you turn, but that's actually already a law and people just don't follow it. Uh, that's a great answer. Uh, if I could create one law, you are not legally allowed to post videos of fireworks. Like, I'm so tired of seeing people post videos of like Fourth of July. I'm like, dude, that looks horrible.

No one sees what you'reing trying to look at. You're laughing. Your hands are shaking. like just enjoy the fireworks, dude. That's it. That's brilliant. That is hilarious. We've never had that in the history of the show. So, that is a great idea. That's like I might actually like that. I might need to like start petitioning for that to become a real law. I love it. Noah, you are such a good time. I hope you genuinely time. I hope you genuinely felt seen and heard today uh on the show.

I hope you felt you got to share in a safe space what you're going through and through and through and really did, man. You know, and uh I long this continue. I hope you'll come back. Hope we'll do a lot more of this. So, dude, totally. And yeah, I let's go play pickle ball or something sometime. I would love to hang out with you outside of it and I appreciate being on the show. It's really really cool experience and very helpful and hopefully people hear this and uh yeah, like we both want feel heard.

So, thank you man. Thank you, man. Thank you. If this is the year that you're trying to get creative, you're trying to build more, I need you to listen to this episode with Rick Rubin. Rick Rubin. Rick Rubin. Follow your own inner guide. It directs us. It might not make sight not make sense to us. Might not make sense to anyone else. Certainly won't make sense to anyone else. And that's okay. It's fine.