No.1 Christianity Expert: The Truth About Christianity! The Case For Jesus (Historian's Proof)

Am I going to hell? Am I going to hell? >> Yes. But here's the thing. Everybody is >> Yes. But here's the thing. Everybody is >> Yes. But here's the thing. Everybody is going to hell. And it's not because they going to hell. And it's not because they going to hell. And it's not because they don't believe in God. And look, I'm a don't believe in God. And look, I'm a don't believe in God. And look, I'm a historian and a theologian. So, I study historian and a theologian. So, I study historian and a theologian. So, I study ancient biblical manuscripts. And if you ancient biblical manuscripts. And if you ancient biblical manuscripts. And if you truly understand what this book is truly understand what this book is truly understand what this book is saying, I don't want you to experience saying, I don't want you to experience saying, I don't want you to experience that. that. that. >> This is not a place I want to go. So, >> This is not a place I want to go. So, >> This is not a place I want to go. So, what do I do about that? what do I do about that? what do I do about that? >> It's not about trying to earn my way >> It's not about trying to earn my way >> It's not about trying to earn my way into heaven. It's not about checking into heaven. It's not about checking into heaven. It's not about checking off. I read the Bible as many times. I off. I read the Bible as many times. I off. I read the Bible as many times. I didn't lie. I didn't steal. I didn't didn't lie. I didn't steal. I didn't didn't lie. I didn't steal. I didn't cheat. Like, it's none of that. But cheat. Like, it's none of that. But cheat. Like, it's none of that. But here's the problem. Unfortunately, we here's the problem. Unfortunately, we here's the problem. Unfortunately, we bought the lie that we are the sum of bought the lie that we are the sum of bought the lie that we are the sum of our actions, where we're chasing after our actions, where we're chasing after our actions, where we're chasing after things that aren't going to give us what things that aren't going to give us what things that aren't going to give us what we actually need. Which is also why we we actually need. Which is also why we we actually need. Which is also why we live in a world that is lacking in live in a world that is lacking in live in a world that is lacking in purpose and meaning. purpose and meaning. purpose and meaning. >> But the part that I've always struggled >> But the part that I've always struggled >> But the part that I've always struggled with is that the answer being religion with is that the answer being religion with is that the answer being religion as an antidote to that feeling because I as an antidote to that feeling because I as an antidote to that feeling because I require a really high standard of require a really high standard of require a really high standard of evidence because of the way that I am. evidence because of the way that I am. evidence because of the way that I am. >> Well, I think not only can it provide an >> Well, I think not only can it provide an >> Well, I think not only can it provide an antidote, it can provide the antidote. antidote, it can provide the antidote. antidote, it can provide the antidote. And I'll explain why. like how can we And I'll explain why. like how can we And I'll explain why. like how can we trust human accounts of these things and trust human accounts of these things and trust human accounts of these things and then how do you take people who agree then how do you take people who agree then how do you take people who agree that there's clearly something missing that there's clearly something missing that there's clearly something missing to believing that what's written in the to believing that what's written in the to believing that what's written in the Bible is the thing that should guide my Bible is the thing that should guide my Bible is the thing that should guide my life also do you have any doubt oh life also do you have any doubt oh life also do you have any doubt oh especially when there are times of especially when there are times of especially when there are times of struggle and pain and suffering like the struggle and pain and suffering like the struggle and pain and suffering like the whole Epstein thing right now we are whole Epstein thing right now we are whole Epstein thing right now we are seeing examples of true evil so there seeing examples of true evil so there seeing examples of true evil so there are moments where I think how could are moments where I think how could are moments where I think how could there be a good god however from my there be a good god however from my there be a good god however from my investigation I am convinced beyond a investigation I am convinced beyond a investigation I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that there's actual reasonable doubt that there's actual reasonable doubt that there's actual evidence for the existence of God the evidence for the existence of God the evidence for the existence of God the historical reliability of the Bible and historical reliability of the Bible and historical reliability of the Bible and the philosophical explanations for the philosophical explanations for the philosophical explanations for meaning and purpose. meaning and purpose. meaning and purpose. >> And what is that? >> And what is that? >> And what is that? >> First, we have >> First, we have >> First, we have >> that is some of the most persuasive >> that is some of the most persuasive >> that is some of the most persuasive evidence one can receive. >> Guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you. >> Guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you. We're approaching a significant We're approaching a significant We're approaching a significant subscriber milestone on this show. And subscriber milestone on this show. And subscriber milestone on this show. And roughly 69% of you that listen and love roughly 69% of you that listen and love roughly 69% of you that listen and love this show haven't yet subscribed for this show haven't yet subscribed for this show haven't yet subscribed for whatever reason. If there was ever a whatever reason. If there was ever a whatever reason. If there was ever a time for you to do us a favor, if we've time for you to do us a favor, if we've time for you to do us a favor, if we've ever done anything for you, given you ever done anything for you, given you ever done anything for you, given you value in any way, it is simply hitting value in any way, it is simply hitting value in any way, it is simply hitting that subscribe button. And it means so that subscribe button. And it means so that subscribe button. And it means so much to myself, but also to my team much to myself, but also to my team much to myself, but also to my team because when we hit these milestones, we because when we hit these milestones, we because when we hit these milestones, we go away as a team and celebrate. And go away as a team and celebrate. And go away as a team and celebrate. And it's the thing, the simple, free, easy it's the thing, the simple, free, easy it's the thing, the simple, free, easy thing you can do to help make this show thing you can do to help make this show thing you can do to help make this show a little bit better every single week. a little bit better every single week. a little bit better every single week. So, that's a favor I would ask you. And So, that's a favor I would ask you. And So, that's a favor I would ask you. And um if you do hit the subscribe button, I um if you do hit the subscribe button, I um if you do hit the subscribe button, I won't let you down and we'll continue to won't let you down and we'll continue to won't let you down and we'll continue to find small ways to make this whole find small ways to make this whole find small ways to make this whole production better. Thank you so much for production better. Thank you so much for production better. Thank you so much for being part of this journey. Means the being part of this journey. Means the being part of this journey. Means the world. And uh yeah, let's do this. Wesley, I have this fascinating uh graph Wesley, I have this fascinating uh graph in front of me here and it shows several in front of me here and it shows several in front of me here and it shows several things that I find to be really really things that I find to be really really things that I find to be really really interesting. One of them is that as of interesting. One of them is that as of interesting. One of them is that as of 2024, 2024, 2024, the decline of religion has started to the decline of religion has started to the decline of religion has started to level off and actually increase a little level off and actually increase a little level off and actually increase a little bit. And now 63% of US adults identify bit. And now 63% of US adults identify bit. And now 63% of US adults identify as Christian, which is roughly 160 as Christian, which is roughly 160 as Christian, which is roughly 160 million people. In 2025, Bible sales hit million people. In 2025, Bible sales hit million people. In 2025, Bible sales hit a 21-year high in the United States with a 21-year high in the United States with a 21-year high in the United States with 19 million units sold. Weekly Bible 19 million units sold. Weekly Bible 19 million units sold. Weekly Bible reading amongst US adults has increased reading amongst US adults has increased reading amongst US adults has increased to 42%, which is up 12% since 2024. And to 42%, which is up 12% since 2024. And to 42%, which is up 12% since 2024. And in 2024, Christian and gospel music in 2024, Christian and gospel music in 2024, Christian and gospel music streams in the US increased by roughly streams in the US increased by roughly streams in the US increased by roughly 20% according to the Washington Times. 20% according to the Washington Times. 20% according to the Washington Times. Wesley, what is going on in society? If Wesley, what is going on in society? If Wesley, what is going on in society? If we zoom out, we zoom out, we zoom out, >> I think we're in a unique bubble where >> I think we're in a unique bubble where >> I think we're in a unique bubble where we found ourselves in a time frame where we found ourselves in a time frame where we found ourselves in a time frame where we're connected more than ever. We've we're connected more than ever. We've we're connected more than ever. We've kind of come out of a period of time kind of come out of a period of time kind of come out of a period of time where the new atheism is very, very where the new atheism is very, very where the new atheism is very, very popular. You had Dawkins, Daniel, uh, popular. You had Dawkins, Daniel, uh, popular. You had Dawkins, Daniel, uh, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, Christopher Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, Christopher Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, and they made a big impact in Hitchens, and they made a big impact in Hitchens, and they made a big impact in the early 2000s. the early 2000s. the early 2000s. >> I think we should probably just give >> I think we should probably just give >> I think we should probably just give some color to what new atheism is. some color to what new atheism is. some color to what new atheism is. >> Sure. Yeah. >> Sure. Yeah. >> Sure. Yeah. >> I've actually got a graph here, which >> I've actually got a graph here, which >> I've actually got a graph here, which I'll throw up on the screen, which shows I'll throw up on the screen, which shows I'll throw up on the screen, which shows the rise and then the the fall of new the rise and then the the fall of new the rise and then the the fall of new atheism, but I was pulled in by new atheism, but I was pulled in by new atheism, but I was pulled in by new atheism. atheism. atheism. >> And that meant that I, and again, I >> And that meant that I, and again, I >> And that meant that I, and again, I should probably preface my beliefs should probably preface my beliefs should probably preface my beliefs because people are going to want to know because people are going to want to know because people are going to want to know what my bias is when I'm asking what my bias is when I'm asking what my bias is when I'm asking questions. I grew up in a very Christian questions. I grew up in a very Christian questions. I grew up in a very Christian household up until the age of 18. I then household up until the age of 18. I then household up until the age of 18. I then became agnostic/ atheist when I started became agnostic/ atheist when I started became agnostic/ atheist when I started consuming a lot of this stuff from consuming a lot of this stuff from consuming a lot of this stuff from Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris and all Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris and all Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris and all of these people. And then I find myself of these people. And then I find myself of these people. And then I find myself at a point now where I'm just at a point now where I'm just at a point now where I'm just open-minded and curious, open-minded and curious, open-minded and curious, >> but I have lots of questions. Yeah, you >> but I have lots of questions. Yeah, you >> but I have lots of questions. Yeah, you had these individuals who are writing had these individuals who are writing had these individuals who are writing these very influential works. But I these very influential works. But I these very influential works. But I sometimes wonder whether the new atheism sometimes wonder whether the new atheism sometimes wonder whether the new atheism movement worked a lot more effectively movement worked a lot more effectively movement worked a lot more effectively in print than it did in actual real in print than it did in actual real in print than it did in actual real life. Like in terms of the practicality life. Like in terms of the practicality life. Like in terms of the practicality of the application of the things that of the application of the things that of the application of the things that were being talked about, especially in were being talked about, especially in were being talked about, especially in regards to meaning, if you apply ideas regards to meaning, if you apply ideas regards to meaning, if you apply ideas like you being a product of time plus like you being a product of time plus like you being a product of time plus matter plus chance, what does that matter plus chance, what does that matter plus chance, what does that actually give you in terms of the actually give you in terms of the actually give you in terms of the ultimate identity questions? And so I ultimate identity questions? And so I ultimate identity questions? And so I think I think that's true in a lot of think I think that's true in a lot of think I think that's true in a lot of circumstances where you have these seeds circumstances where you have these seeds circumstances where you have these seeds that are planted and they grow and they that are planted and they grow and they that are planted and they grow and they produce trees that produce fruit that produce trees that produce fruit that produce trees that produce fruit that are kind of hard to digest in their are kind of hard to digest in their are kind of hard to digest in their actual application. And along with that, actual application. And along with that, actual application. And along with that, we have a world that's very complex. we have a world that's very complex. we have a world that's very complex. We're more connected than we ever have We're more connected than we ever have We're more connected than we ever have been. I don't know if we're truly we been. I don't know if we're truly we been. I don't know if we're truly we were ever truly meant to know as much were ever truly meant to know as much were ever truly meant to know as much information as we do, especially about information as we do, especially about information as we do, especially about things that are going on around the things that are going on around the things that are going on around the world and things that are hard to to world and things that are hard to to world and things that are hard to to comprehend. And so what I think that all comprehend. And so what I think that all comprehend. And so what I think that all kind of adds up to is people asking kind of adds up to is people asking kind of adds up to is people asking questions about, okay, I'm here. I'm questions about, okay, I'm here. I'm questions about, okay, I'm here. I'm right now trying to figure out what's right now trying to figure out what's right now trying to figure out what's going on. How do I actually find out the going on. How do I actually find out the going on. How do I actually find out the answers to a lot of these questions that answers to a lot of these questions that answers to a lot of these questions that just go beyond the here and the now that just go beyond the here and the now that just go beyond the here and the now that I'm experiencing? This is what um I'm experiencing? This is what um I'm experiencing? This is what um individuals like James K. Smith called individuals like James K. Smith called individuals like James K. Smith called the dynamics of disenchantment where the dynamics of disenchantment where the dynamics of disenchantment where people are struggling with these people are struggling with these people are struggling with these transcendent questions, questions that transcendent questions, questions that transcendent questions, questions that are metaphysical that go beyond just the are metaphysical that go beyond just the are metaphysical that go beyond just the here and the now in the world. Why is here and the now in the world. Why is here and the now in the world. Why is the three pounds of gray matter in my the three pounds of gray matter in my the three pounds of gray matter in my brain able to comprehend the brain able to comprehend the brain able to comprehend the complexities of the universe? How do I complexities of the universe? How do I complexities of the universe? How do I how do I come up with a solution to that how do I come up with a solution to that how do I come up with a solution to that problem? So, I think that's part of it. problem? So, I think that's part of it. problem? So, I think that's part of it. I think it's kind of moving on in a I think it's kind of moving on in a I think it's kind of moving on in a world that just is probably more messy world that just is probably more messy world that just is probably more messy than it's ever been. A lot of countries, than it's ever been. A lot of countries, than it's ever been. A lot of countries, the UK, Europe, Canada, America, all of the UK, Europe, Canada, America, all of the UK, Europe, Canada, America, all of these western countries, these western countries, these western countries, they they were founded on these they they were founded on these they they were founded on these Judeo-Christian ethics of foundations Judeo-Christian ethics of foundations Judeo-Christian ethics of foundations that come from the Old and the New that come from the Old and the New that come from the Old and the New Testaments, what we call the Bible. And Testaments, what we call the Bible. And Testaments, what we call the Bible. And a lot of people kind of attempted to a lot of people kind of attempted to a lot of people kind of attempted to divorce the religious aspect from the divorce the religious aspect from the divorce the religious aspect from the societies. And societies became less and societies. And societies became less and societies. And societies became less and less overtly religious in those natures. less overtly religious in those natures. less overtly religious in those natures. And then a lot of people saw that their And then a lot of people saw that their And then a lot of people saw that their parents were no longer going to church. parents were no longer going to church. parents were no longer going to church. Like the Bible wasn't part of kind of Like the Bible wasn't part of kind of Like the Bible wasn't part of kind of the household any longer. And I talked the household any longer. And I talked the household any longer. And I talked to a lot of young people who look at to a lot of young people who look at to a lot of young people who look at that and they say in almost like a that and they say in almost like a that and they say in almost like a rebellion against their parents, they're rebellion against their parents, they're rebellion against their parents, they're now interested in that. Their parents now interested in that. Their parents now interested in that. Their parents rebelled by disassociating from rebelled by disassociating from rebelled by disassociating from religion. And now I wonder if there's religion. And now I wonder if there's religion. And now I wonder if there's part of a rebellion in kind of looking part of a rebellion in kind of looking part of a rebellion in kind of looking back and trying to reclaim some of that back and trying to reclaim some of that back and trying to reclaim some of that religious stuff. I think in part as well religious stuff. I think in part as well religious stuff. I think in part as well this younger generation, Gen Z's and I this younger generation, Gen Z's and I this younger generation, Gen Z's and I guess to some extent also millennials guess to some extent also millennials guess to some extent also millennials have been told to live more have been told to live more have been told to live more individualistic lives and that's really individualistic lives and that's really individualistic lives and that's really been glamorized like be your own boss been glamorized like be your own boss been glamorized like be your own boss and now we work remotely and stand on and now we work remotely and stand on and now we work remotely and stand on your own two feet and we're even seeing your own two feet and we're even seeing your own two feet and we're even seeing people getting into sort of people getting into sort of people getting into sort of relationships later and later in their relationships later and later in their relationships later and later in their lives and having less children. So lives and having less children. So lives and having less children. So they're more it appears people are more they're more it appears people are more they're more it appears people are more unanchored than they've ever been and unanchored than they've ever been and unanchored than they've ever been and that was to some degree glamorized. Um that was to some degree glamorized. Um that was to some degree glamorized. Um but it also appears that when we are but it also appears that when we are but it also appears that when we are unanch anchored when we don't have unanch anchored when we don't have unanch anchored when we don't have responsibilities or we're not part of responsibilities or we're not part of responsibilities or we're not part of something mental health issues um are something mental health issues um are something mental health issues um are quick quick to follow quick quick to follow quick quick to follow >> and for this generation they're >> and for this generation they're >> and for this generation they're suffering the most with those types of suffering the most with those types of suffering the most with those types of mental health issues and then one would mental health issues and then one would mental health issues and then one would assert that they would therefore be assert that they would therefore be assert that they would therefore be searching more for searching more for searching more for >> answers to some of these existential >> answers to some of these existential >> answers to some of these existential questions questions questions >> expressive individualism I think it rose >> expressive individualism I think it rose >> expressive individualism I think it rose that's the kind of the terminology in that's the kind of the terminology in that's the kind of the terminology in soc in the sociological literature that soc in the sociological literature that soc in the sociological literature that they refer to it but I I think you they refer to it but I I think you they refer to it but I I think you touched on a good point in that like as touched on a good point in that like as touched on a good point in that like as we've removed God, part of the we've removed God, part of the we've removed God, part of the intellectual light enlightenment was intellectual light enlightenment was intellectual light enlightenment was that we would move away from the that we would move away from the that we would move away from the shackles of religiosity and the concept shackles of religiosity and the concept shackles of religiosity and the concept of a creator and that would lead us into of a creator and that would lead us into of a creator and that would lead us into a utopia. And I think the more and more a utopia. And I think the more and more a utopia. And I think the more and more we've removed that from society that we've removed that from society that we've removed that from society that hasn't decreased our levels of anxiety hasn't decreased our levels of anxiety hasn't decreased our levels of anxiety and depression and meaning. I I think and depression and meaning. I I think and depression and meaning. I I think it's increased it. it's increased it. it's increased it. >> Yeah. And especially celebrity worship, >> Yeah. And especially celebrity worship, >> Yeah. And especially celebrity worship, social media, building a following of social media, building a following of social media, building a following of your own like sort of low-key your own like sort of low-key your own like sort of low-key narcissism. narcissism. narcissism. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Has made us more and more and more and >> Has made us more and more and more and >> Has made us more and more and more and more important. And that seems to more important. And that seems to more important. And that seems to correlate with worse and worse and worse correlate with worse and worse and worse correlate with worse and worse and worse mental health when you start to become mental health when you start to become mental health when you start to become more individualistic and think more and more individualistic and think more and more individualistic and think more and more about yourself more about yourself more about yourself >> and self-importance >> and self-importance >> and self-importance >> versus others and a bigger picture. >> versus others and a bigger picture. >> versus others and a bigger picture. >> Mhm. I think we were created for >> Mhm. I think we were created for >> Mhm. I think we were created for community. I think we are as human community. I think we are as human community. I think we are as human beings a creature that is created for beings a creature that is created for beings a creature that is created for community ultimately like cards on the community ultimately like cards on the community ultimately like cards on the table as a Christian because I believe table as a Christian because I believe table as a Christian because I believe we are created in the image of a God who we are created in the image of a God who we are created in the image of a God who exists in a set of living loving exists in a set of living loving exists in a set of living loving relationships like that's what the relationships like that's what the relationships like that's what the trinity is when we talk about that idea trinity is when we talk about that idea trinity is when we talk about that idea within Christian theology. God exists in within Christian theology. God exists in within Christian theology. God exists in father son and holy spirit. And so being father son and holy spirit. And so being father son and holy spirit. And so being created in the image of God, part of created in the image of God, part of created in the image of God, part of that is you are created for that is you are created for that is you are created for relationship. And so in a society that's relationship. And so in a society that's relationship. And so in a society that's continually removing us, you know, you continually removing us, you know, you continually removing us, you know, you need to be an influencer. You're need to be an influencer. You're need to be an influencer. You're influencing everybody else. influencing everybody else. influencing everybody else. >> When I think we're not created to be >> When I think we're not created to be >> When I think we're not created to be lone wolves or lone rangers. We're lone wolves or lone rangers. We're lone wolves or lone rangers. We're created to live amongst community and created to live amongst community and created to live amongst community and have that be something that likewise have that be something that likewise have that be something that likewise gives us fulfillment. It's not that gives us fulfillment. It's not that gives us fulfillment. It's not that people who are leaders are, you know, people who are leaders are, you know, people who are leaders are, you know, rise to the top are wrong by any rise to the top are wrong by any rise to the top are wrong by any stretch, but in a society where we're stretch, but in a society where we're stretch, but in a society where we're alone together because alone together because alone together because we are sitting behind computer screens we are sitting behind computer screens we are sitting behind computer screens >> and we're talking to hundreds of >> and we're talking to hundreds of >> and we're talking to hundreds of thousands if not millions of people in thousands if not millions of people in thousands if not millions of people in some cases, but but we're secluded. some cases, but but we're secluded. some cases, but but we're secluded. >> I think that that does something to our >> I think that that does something to our >> I think that that does something to our souls because we were made to be in souls because we were made to be in souls because we were made to be in relationship with other people. I relationship with other people. I relationship with other people. I agree with everything you've said as it agree with everything you've said as it agree with everything you've said as it relates to the sort of crisis of meaning relates to the sort of crisis of meaning relates to the sort of crisis of meaning in society and I also agree with many of in society and I also agree with many of in society and I also agree with many of your reasons as to why that's occurred. your reasons as to why that's occurred. your reasons as to why that's occurred. >> The part that I've always struggled with >> The part that I've always struggled with >> The part that I've always struggled with is then the answer being Christianity or is then the answer being Christianity or is then the answer being Christianity or any other religion. any other religion. any other religion. >> Sure. I agree with, you know, so many of >> Sure. I agree with, you know, so many of >> Sure. I agree with, you know, so many of the things you've said, but then I my the things you've said, but then I my the things you've said, but then I my brain has, I think, especially after the brain has, I think, especially after the brain has, I think, especially after the age of 18 when I started reading about age of 18 when I started reading about age of 18 when I started reading about all this new atheist stuff and these all this new atheist stuff and these all this new atheist stuff and these questions of evil and am I going to hell questions of evil and am I going to hell questions of evil and am I going to hell and all these other things, I've not and all these other things, I've not and all these other things, I've not been able to get there. been able to get there. been able to get there. >> But I'm having this conversation with >> But I'm having this conversation with >> But I'm having this conversation with you today because I am open-minded and you today because I am open-minded and you today because I am open-minded and although I've got like difficult although I've got like difficult although I've got like difficult questions to ask, I'm in pursuit of the questions to ask, I'm in pursuit of the questions to ask, I'm in pursuit of the truth, not any particular ideology or truth, not any particular ideology or truth, not any particular ideology or answer. So, how do you take someone like answer. So, how do you take someone like answer. So, how do you take someone like me who agrees that there's clearly me who agrees that there's clearly me who agrees that there's clearly something missing, who believes that something missing, who believes that something missing, who believes that there's something transcendent? Like, there's something transcendent? Like, there's something transcendent? Like, it'd be a crazy thing to assume that it'd be a crazy thing to assume that it'd be a crazy thing to assume that this is it. I I think this is it. I I think this is it. I I think >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How do you take them from this position >> How do you take them from this position >> How do you take them from this position to to to >> believing that what's written in this >> believing that what's written in this >> believing that what's written in this book in front of me, the Bible, book in front of me, the Bible, book in front of me, the Bible, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> is the thing that should guide my life, >> is the thing that should guide my life, >> is the thing that should guide my life, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Because I I like, again, I say I'm going >> Because I I like, again, I say I'm going >> Because I I like, again, I say I'm going to say this again, that like to say this again, that like to say this again, that like >> I think I require a really high standard >> I think I require a really high standard >> I think I require a really high standard of evidence because of the way that I of evidence because of the way that I of evidence because of the way that I am. am. am. >> Yeah. You know, I think there's a >> Yeah. You know, I think there's a >> Yeah. You know, I think there's a historical case for it which I'm very historical case for it which I'm very historical case for it which I'm very much invested in because my training much invested in because my training much invested in because my training formerly is in historioggraphy. I study formerly is in historioggraphy. I study formerly is in historioggraphy. I study ancient biblical manuscripts and their ancient biblical manuscripts and their ancient biblical manuscripts and their kind of reliability and fidelity over kind of reliability and fidelity over kind of reliability and fidelity over the last couple of millennia. So looking the last couple of millennia. So looking the last couple of millennia. So looking at some of those manuscripts that at some of those manuscripts that at some of those manuscripts that actually can trace back to the actual actually can trace back to the actual actually can trace back to the actual time frame of Jesus and answering time frame of Jesus and answering time frame of Jesus and answering questions like is what we have now what questions like is what we have now what questions like is what we have now what the original authors wrote back then? the original authors wrote back then? the original authors wrote back then? So, I think there's a historical So, I think there's a historical So, I think there's a historical question to it. And I in my own personal question to it. And I in my own personal question to it. And I in my own personal investigation genuinely think that the investigation genuinely think that the investigation genuinely think that the evidence, the publicly available evidence, the publicly available evidence, the publicly available evidence gets us back to not only the evidence gets us back to not only the evidence gets us back to not only the time frame of Jesus, but to early time frame of Jesus, but to early time frame of Jesus, but to early eyewitness testimony that proclaims that eyewitness testimony that proclaims that eyewitness testimony that proclaims that this first century Jewish itinerate this first century Jewish itinerate this first century Jewish itinerate rabbi who was walking the dusty streets rabbi who was walking the dusty streets rabbi who was walking the dusty streets of first century made these claims and of first century made these claims and of first century made these claims and then there is sufficient evidence to say then there is sufficient evidence to say then there is sufficient evidence to say that he predicted his own death and that he predicted his own death and that he predicted his own death and resurrection and did it. How do I know resurrection and did it. How do I know resurrection and did it. How do I know Jesus Christ was real? And then how do I Jesus Christ was real? And then how do I Jesus Christ was real? And then how do I know what's written in that book is real know what's written in that book is real know what's written in that book is real versus just some guys thousands of years versus just some guys thousands of years versus just some guys thousands of years ago made a book? ago made a book? ago made a book? >> Yeah. So that is a question of >> Yeah. So that is a question of >> Yeah. So that is a question of historical reliability. So there are a historical reliability. So there are a historical reliability. So there are a couple different ways we could go about couple different ways we could go about couple different ways we could go about it. First, we have four biographical it. First, we have four biographical it. First, we have four biographical accounts of Jesus's life, which is very accounts of Jesus's life, which is very accounts of Jesus's life, which is very unusual. So we call them the Gospels, unusual. So we call them the Gospels, unusual. So we call them the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Um those Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Um those Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Um those aren't actually our earliest source aren't actually our earliest source aren't actually our earliest source material for the life of Jesus. that material for the life of Jesus. that material for the life of Jesus. that comes in the person of Paul. Paul is comes in the person of Paul. Paul is comes in the person of Paul. Paul is actually writing before the gospel actually writing before the gospel actually writing before the gospel accounts and he is uh someone who was accounts and he is uh someone who was accounts and he is uh someone who was hostile originally to the Christian hostile originally to the Christian hostile originally to the Christian message and he's persecuting Christians. message and he's persecuting Christians. message and he's persecuting Christians. He comes along and he has this radical He comes along and he has this radical He comes along and he has this radical conversion experience when he's conversion experience when he's conversion experience when he's traveling to Damascus where he says he's traveling to Damascus where he says he's traveling to Damascus where he says he's he's literally thrown off a horse. He he's literally thrown off a horse. He he's literally thrown off a horse. He hears God's voice and it's Jesus and he hears God's voice and it's Jesus and he hears God's voice and it's Jesus and he says, "Paul, why are you persecuting says, "Paul, why are you persecuting says, "Paul, why are you persecuting me?" And then he writes these things me?" And then he writes these things me?" And then he writes these things about his experience and and then about his experience and and then about his experience and and then ultimately goes and connects with the ultimately goes and connects with the ultimately goes and connects with the individuals who are who we call the individuals who are who we call the individuals who are who we call the disciples who are like this this close disciples who are like this this close disciples who are like this this close Jesus community and connects with them. Jesus community and connects with them. Jesus community and connects with them. So he's our earliest source but then you So he's our earliest source but then you So he's our earliest source but then you have these gospel accounts these these have these gospel accounts these these have these gospel accounts these these biographies and the gospels are biographies and the gospels are biographies and the gospels are interesting because they fit within the interesting because they fit within the interesting because they fit within the historical framework of ancient Greco historical framework of ancient Greco historical framework of ancient Greco Roman biography. So let me give you an Roman biography. So let me give you an Roman biography. So let me give you an example. The most well-known person in example. The most well-known person in example. The most well-known person in Jesus's day was the emperor. His name is Jesus's day was the emperor. His name is Jesus's day was the emperor. His name is Tiberius. Tiberius has four biographical Tiberius. Tiberius has four biographical Tiberius. Tiberius has four biographical accounts that are written about him. accounts that are written about him. accounts that are written about him. Valasculus, Casiodio, Sutonius, and Valasculus, Casiodio, Sutonius, and Valasculus, Casiodio, Sutonius, and Tacitus. Tacitus. Tacitus. >> So, these are the four guys. Okay. >> So, these are the four guys. Okay. >> So, these are the four guys. Okay. >> And what's interesting in sort of a >> And what's interesting in sort of a >> And what's interesting in sort of a comparative analysis of Jesus and those comparative analysis of Jesus and those comparative analysis of Jesus and those people is that they're all writing people is that they're all writing people is that they're all writing around the same time period. So the around the same time period. So the around the same time period. So the biographies are coming from the first biographies are coming from the first biographies are coming from the first century for Jesus. They're coming in century for Jesus. They're coming in century for Jesus. They're coming in this time period where you have an early this time period where you have an early this time period where you have an early eyewitness testimony for the emperor for eyewitness testimony for the emperor for eyewitness testimony for the emperor for the most well-known person in the the most well-known person in the the most well-known person in the ancient world. All of the sources except ancient world. All of the sources except ancient world. All of the sources except for uh Valas Peterculus are coming from for uh Valas Peterculus are coming from for uh Valas Peterculus are coming from the second century. the second century. the second century. >> Val Petculus is coming from the first >> Val Petculus is coming from the first >> Val Petculus is coming from the first century. He's very close to the source, century. He's very close to the source, century. He's very close to the source, but he's a paid propagandist. So even but he's a paid propagandist. So even but he's a paid propagandist. So even though he's the earliest, he's the least though he's the earliest, he's the least though he's the earliest, he's the least reliable. And for the gospels that comes reliable. And for the gospels that comes reliable. And for the gospels that comes around to the 4th century. So there's a around to the 4th century. So there's a around to the 4th century. So there's a comparison with the source material for comparison with the source material for comparison with the source material for someone like Jesus even though we really someone like Jesus even though we really someone like Jesus even though we really shouldn't have anything about him shouldn't have anything about him shouldn't have anything about him because he's he's kind of a nobody from because he's he's kind of a nobody from because he's he's kind of a nobody from nowhere nowhere nowhere >> in terms of the Roman Empire and the >> in terms of the Roman Empire and the >> in terms of the Roman Empire and the grand scheme of things. grand scheme of things. grand scheme of things. >> But we have a phenomenal amount of >> But we have a phenomenal amount of >> But we have a phenomenal amount of source information for his life. I mean, source information for his life. I mean, source information for his life. I mean, this is one of the things I discovered this is one of the things I discovered this is one of the things I discovered when I went through that new atheist when I went through that new atheist when I went through that new atheist phase was that really everybody kind of phase was that really everybody kind of phase was that really everybody kind of agrees that there was a guy called Jesus agrees that there was a guy called Jesus agrees that there was a guy called Jesus from Nazareth and that he was a real from Nazareth and that he was a real from Nazareth and that he was a real historical person. historical person. historical person. >> I guess the part in dispute was whether >> I guess the part in dispute was whether >> I guess the part in dispute was whether things like his resurrection actually things like his resurrection actually things like his resurrection actually happened or whether he was just a happened or whether he was just a happened or whether he was just a spiritual leader back then like we have spiritual leader back then like we have spiritual leader back then like we have spiritual leaders today. And I think one spiritual leaders today. And I think one spiritual leaders today. And I think one of the one of the things that I got of the one of the things that I got of the one of the things that I got really stuck on when I was reading about really stuck on when I was reading about really stuck on when I was reading about Jesus and the Bible was there appears to Jesus and the Bible was there appears to Jesus and the Bible was there appears to be quite a significant gap between his be quite a significant gap between his be quite a significant gap between his life, his death, and then the writings life, his death, and then the writings life, his death, and then the writings that go into the Bible. And for me in my that go into the Bible. And for me in my that go into the Bible. And for me in my head, I was like, well, if you know, head, I was like, well, if you know, head, I was like, well, if you know, >> if something happened in my life 50 >> if something happened in my life 50 >> if something happened in my life 50 years ago, I mean, I'm only 33, but if years ago, I mean, I'm only 33, but if years ago, I mean, I'm only 33, but if something happened 50 years ago, I would something happened 50 years ago, I would something happened 50 years ago, I would not be able to recount it. Frankly, I not be able to recount it. Frankly, I not be able to recount it. Frankly, I can't recount what happened last week can't recount what happened last week can't recount what happened last week accurately, accurately, accurately, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Let alone like decades ago. You've you >> Let alone like decades ago. You've you >> Let alone like decades ago. You've you must have heard this argument before. must have heard this argument before. must have heard this argument before. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> What how do you how do you square the >> What how do you how do you square the >> What how do you how do you square the circle here? circle here? circle here? >> So, there are a few things going on. >> So, there are a few things going on. >> So, there are a few things going on. First, we live in a hyperiterate First, we live in a hyperiterate First, we live in a hyperiterate culture. We are writing everything down. culture. We are writing everything down. culture. We are writing everything down. The ancient world was far less of a The ancient world was far less of a The ancient world was far less of a literate culture. They were an oral literate culture. They were an oral literate culture. They were an oral culture. These stories would have been culture. These stories would have been culture. These stories would have been passed in large groups at at at time passed in large groups at at at time passed in large groups at at at time frames, especially if we're talking frames, especially if we're talking frames, especially if we're talking about the biographical material of Jesus about the biographical material of Jesus about the biographical material of Jesus is actually written in a closer time is actually written in a closer time is actually written in a closer time frame than the majority of anyone else. frame than the majority of anyone else. frame than the majority of anyone else. >> What was that gap? >> What was that gap? >> What was that gap? >> It's it's about 40 to 60 years. >> It's it's about 40 to 60 years. >> It's it's about 40 to 60 years. >> So, I really want to I imagine there's >> So, I really want to I imagine there's >> So, I really want to I imagine there's some people listening that have probably some people listening that have probably some people listening that have probably never read the Bible. And I really want never read the Bible. And I really want never read the Bible. And I really want to explain to them like what this book to explain to them like what this book to explain to them like what this book is in the simplest terms. Can I I can is in the simplest terms. Can I I can is in the simplest terms. Can I I can open your Bible. open your Bible. open your Bible. >> Yeah, of course. Yeah. >> Yeah, of course. Yeah. >> Yeah, of course. Yeah. >> So, is there is there like chapters in >> So, is there is there like chapters in >> So, is there is there like chapters in here? here? here? >> Yeah. So, the Bible is though we now >> Yeah. So, the Bible is though we now >> Yeah. So, the Bible is though we now have it in one book is 66 books written have it in one book is 66 books written have it in one book is 66 books written over a period of about 1600 years on over a period of about 1600 years on over a period of about 1600 years on three different continents by close to three different continents by close to three different continents by close to 40 different authors in three different 40 different authors in three different 40 different authors in three different languages. languages. languages. >> So, I've just opened your Bible. Y >> So, I've just opened your Bible. Y >> So, I've just opened your Bible. Y >> and there's one section that says the >> and there's one section that says the >> and there's one section that says the Old Testament. There's another section Old Testament. There's another section Old Testament. There's another section section that says the New Testament. M section that says the New Testament. M section that says the New Testament. M what am I looking at? Like is this God's what am I looking at? Like is this God's what am I looking at? Like is this God's words? Is this a bunch of people's words? Is this a bunch of people's words? Is this a bunch of people's stories that have been compiled stories that have been compiled stories that have been compiled together? What is the Old Testament? together? What is the Old Testament? together? What is the Old Testament? What's the New Testament? What's the What's the New Testament? What's the What's the New Testament? What's the difference? difference? difference? >> Yeah. So the Old Testament is the Hebrew >> Yeah. So the Old Testament is the Hebrew >> Yeah. So the Old Testament is the Hebrew scriptures. So that's the scriptures of scriptures. So that's the scriptures of scriptures. So that's the scriptures of the Jewish people. the Jewish people. the Jewish people. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So that is uh you know it starts in >> So that is uh you know it starts in >> So that is uh you know it starts in what's referred to as the Torah, which what's referred to as the Torah, which what's referred to as the Torah, which are the first five books or the five are the first five books or the five are the first five books or the five books of Moses. And then that goes in a books of Moses. And then that goes in a books of Moses. And then that goes in a time frame all the way up to the period time frame all the way up to the period time frame all the way up to the period of the Persians. of the Persians. of the Persians. >> So that's a certain time frame. Yes. And >> So that's a certain time frame. Yes. And >> So that's a certain time frame. Yes. And they've gone and collected books from they've gone and collected books from they've gone and collected books from that time frame or writings from that that time frame or writings from that that time frame or writings from that time frame. time frame. time frame. >> Yeah. So the ancient Jewish people had >> Yeah. So the ancient Jewish people had >> Yeah. So the ancient Jewish people had and remember all of these books they and remember all of these books they and remember all of these books they would have circulated as independent would have circulated as independent would have circulated as independent writings. writings. writings. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So we start to see things like this >> So we start to see things like this >> So we start to see things like this happen in the 4th century. Prior to that happen in the 4th century. Prior to that happen in the 4th century. Prior to that everything's in independent scrolls. So everything's in independent scrolls. So everything's in independent scrolls. So there's an understanding when even you there's an understanding when even you there's an understanding when even you get them all sort of put in one unit get them all sort of put in one unit get them all sort of put in one unit that would have contained the that would have contained the that would have contained the scriptures, the word of God more so than scriptures, the word of God more so than scriptures, the word of God more so than like this is the word of God. like this is the word of God. like this is the word of God. >> The reason why I am unapologetic and >> The reason why I am unapologetic and >> The reason why I am unapologetic and very open about my total naivity is very open about my total naivity is very open about my total naivity is because often in these conversations because often in these conversations because often in these conversations >> you end up kind of preaching to the >> you end up kind of preaching to the >> you end up kind of preaching to the choir. choir. choir. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> If you know what I mean. And there's a >> If you know what I mean. And there's a >> If you know what I mean. And there's a huge amount of people, especially huge amount of people, especially huge amount of people, especially younger people that went through that younger people that went through that younger people that went through that new atheist movement, were maybe born in new atheist movement, were maybe born in new atheist movement, were maybe born in the 2000s that are now 26 years old, the 2000s that are now 26 years old, the 2000s that are now 26 years old, >> that have never read the Bible, have >> that have never read the Bible, have >> that have never read the Bible, have never even opened one, have no idea what never even opened one, have no idea what never even opened one, have no idea what it is. They just think it's this kind of it is. They just think it's this kind of it is. They just think it's this kind of like book of stories. Yeah. like book of stories. Yeah. like book of stories. Yeah. >> But these the first um you call these >> But these the first um you call these >> But these the first um you call these books, I was thinking of them like books, I was thinking of them like books, I was thinking of them like chapters. chapters. chapters. >> The first one in the Old Testament is >> The first one in the Old Testament is >> The first one in the Old Testament is Genesis. Genesis. Genesis. >> Who wrote Genesis? Was that a guy or was >> Who wrote Genesis? Was that a guy or was >> Who wrote Genesis? Was that a guy or was that God? So the idea is in Christianity that God? So the idea is in Christianity that God? So the idea is in Christianity the terminology is what's called verbal the terminology is what's called verbal the terminology is what's called verbal plenary inspiration. So verbal it's plenary inspiration. So verbal it's plenary inspiration. So verbal it's spoken plenary it's like written down spoken plenary it's like written down spoken plenary it's like written down and then inspired. So there are human and then inspired. So there are human and then inspired. So there are human authors to all these books. authors to all these books. authors to all these books. >> Okay. So humans wrote these chapters but >> Okay. So humans wrote these chapters but >> Okay. So humans wrote these chapters but they were inspired by God. they were inspired by God. they were inspired by God. >> So yes. So the understanding so in the >> So yes. So the understanding so in the >> So yes. So the understanding so in the Bible itself Peter says that men spoke Bible itself Peter says that men spoke Bible itself Peter says that men spoke as they were carried along by the Holy as they were carried along by the Holy as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. So there's a there's a Spirit. So there's a there's a Spirit. So there's a there's a historical context to all of these like historical context to all of these like historical context to all of these like the history of this period of time of the history of this period of time of the history of this period of time of the nation of Israel as they were being the nation of Israel as they were being the nation of Israel as they were being led by particular rulers. led by particular rulers. led by particular rulers. >> And where does Jesus show up? >> And where does Jesus show up? >> And where does Jesus show up? >> Jesus is the New Testament. >> Jesus is the New Testament. >> Jesus is the New Testament. >> If someone's never read the Old >> If someone's never read the Old >> If someone's never read the Old Testament, what is that about? It's just Testament, what is that about? It's just Testament, what is that about? It's just describing the time. describing the time. describing the time. >> It's a bunch of different things. So >> It's a bunch of different things. So >> It's a bunch of different things. So different things. It's there's a whole different things. It's there's a whole different things. It's there's a whole bunch of genres of literature. So, some bunch of genres of literature. So, some bunch of genres of literature. So, some of it is history, some of it is poetry, of it is history, some of it is poetry, of it is history, some of it is poetry, some of it is what's called wisdom some of it is what's called wisdom some of it is what's called wisdom literature. literature. literature. >> And who decided that these it looks like >> And who decided that these it looks like >> And who decided that these it looks like there's I don't know, it looks like there's I don't know, it looks like there's I don't know, it looks like there's about 40 books in the Old there's about 40 books in the Old there's about 40 books in the Old Testament. Testament. Testament. >> Mhm. 39 books that are in the Old >> Mhm. 39 books that are in the Old >> Mhm. 39 books that are in the Old Testament. Testament. Testament. >> Who decided that those were going to be >> Who decided that those were going to be >> Who decided that those were going to be part of the Old Testament because I'm part of the Old Testament because I'm part of the Old Testament because I'm sure that there was lots of other sure that there was lots of other sure that there was lots of other writings at the time that could have writings at the time that could have writings at the time that could have been included. been included. been included. >> Yeah. So, by the time that Jesus is >> Yeah. So, by the time that Jesus is >> Yeah. So, by the time that Jesus is around, there's approximately an around, there's approximately an around, there's approximately an agreement of what is considered agreement of what is considered agreement of what is considered scripture scripture scripture >> by who? by the Jews themselves. >> by who? by the Jews themselves. >> by who? by the Jews themselves. >> So the Jews decided which 38 books to >> So the Jews decided which 38 books to >> So the Jews decided which 38 books to put in. put in. put in. >> Yes. So you have conversations by >> Yes. So you have conversations by >> Yes. So you have conversations by individuals like there's a guy named individuals like there's a guy named individuals like there's a guy named Josephus who is writing at the end of Josephus who is writing at the end of Josephus who is writing at the end of the first century. Part of what he the first century. Part of what he the first century. Part of what he argues is that the Jewish people don't argues is that the Jewish people don't argues is that the Jewish people don't have kind of an innumerable number of have kind of an innumerable number of have kind of an innumerable number of religious texts like the Greeks do. They religious texts like the Greeks do. They religious texts like the Greeks do. They have a specific number and he uses this have a specific number and he uses this have a specific number and he uses this terminology that they were laid up in terminology that they were laid up in terminology that they were laid up in the temple. So the idea is that you know the temple. So the idea is that you know the temple. So the idea is that you know these are the books they're housed in these are the books they're housed in these are the books they're housed in the temple and they're a set number and the temple and they're a set number and the temple and they're a set number and he gives the number of the same number he gives the number of the same number he gives the number of the same number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet 22. So of letters in the Hebrew alphabet 22. So of letters in the Hebrew alphabet 22. So you usually see this 22 or 23 number, you usually see this 22 or 23 number, you usually see this 22 or 23 number, but they group them differently. And he but they group them differently. And he but they group them differently. And he gives an argument that one of the gives an argument that one of the gives an argument that one of the reasons that there we can find a reasons that there we can find a reasons that there we can find a timeline for what the Jews consider timeline for what the Jews consider timeline for what the Jews consider scripture is he says there's nothing scripture is he says there's nothing scripture is he says there's nothing written before Moses and there's not written before Moses and there's not written before Moses and there's not nothing written after the time of Artis nothing written after the time of Artis nothing written after the time of Artis Xerxes, which is the Persian Empire. So Xerxes, which is the Persian Empire. So Xerxes, which is the Persian Empire. So the book of Esther in the Bible is is the book of Esther in the Bible is is the book of Esther in the Bible is is that time period. So though there are that time period. So though there are that time period. So though there are writings after that there's this writings after that there's this writings after that there's this agreement that agreement that agreement that the voice of God in say the prophets the voice of God in say the prophets the voice of God in say the prophets giving a thus sayaith the Lord statement giving a thus sayaith the Lord statement giving a thus sayaith the Lord statement like communicating messages to the like communicating messages to the like communicating messages to the people of Israel has ceased but the people of Israel has ceased but the people of Israel has ceased but the Jewish cannon though there's like a Jewish cannon though there's like a Jewish cannon though there's like a closing of it there's a soft closing closing of it there's a soft closing closing of it there's a soft closing there's an idea that there's going to be there's an idea that there's going to be there's an idea that there's going to be a new covenant God is make going to make a new covenant God is make going to make a new covenant God is make going to make new pro promises with his people and so new pro promises with his people and so new pro promises with his people and so there are going to be more writings. there are going to be more writings. there are going to be more writings. >> Okay. So my understanding of that is >> Okay. So my understanding of that is >> Okay. So my understanding of that is that he made the case that God is no that he made the case that God is no that he made the case that God is no longer communicating with people to longer communicating with people to longer communicating with people to write these books write these books write these books >> at least that there was a stop point at >> at least that there was a stop point at >> at least that there was a stop point at Malachi. So it's sometimes referred to Malachi. So it's sometimes referred to Malachi. So it's sometimes referred to as the 400 years of silence for that as the 400 years of silence for that as the 400 years of silence for that reason reason reason >> from the point of Jesus's death. >> from the point of Jesus's death. >> from the point of Jesus's death. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> What book from the New Testament is >> What book from the New Testament is >> What book from the New Testament is written last and how big is that gap? written last and how big is that gap? written last and how big is that gap? >> That's a debate. >> That's a debate. >> That's a debate. >> Okay. What's the debate? So the debate >> Okay. What's the debate? So the debate >> Okay. What's the debate? So the debate so the the there's it's a question if so the the there's it's a question if so the the there's it's a question if John's gospel John's gospel John's gospel >> is written before 70 AD or after 70 AD >> is written before 70 AD or after 70 AD >> is written before 70 AD or after 70 AD and if it's written after 70 AD it's and if it's written after 70 AD it's and if it's written after 70 AD it's written in the '9s. So it's written written in the '9s. So it's written written in the '9s. So it's written pretty far afterwards. pretty far afterwards. pretty far afterwards. >> How many years? >> How many years? >> How many years? >> So if Jesus dies in 33. >> So if Jesus dies in 33. >> So if Jesus dies in 33. >> Okay. So about 60. >> Okay. So about 60. >> Okay. So about 60. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Fine. >> Okay. Fine. >> Okay. Fine. >> Yeah. So, so at minimum I I think like >> Yeah. So, so at minimum I I think like >> Yeah. So, so at minimum I I think like 99% of historians, biblical scholars, 99% of historians, biblical scholars, 99% of historians, biblical scholars, classicists would argue that the 27 classicists would argue that the 27 classicists would argue that the 27 books of the New Testament are written books of the New Testament are written books of the New Testament are written in the first century. And so in that in the first century. And so in that in the first century. And so in that sense, they're in the lifetime of the sense, they're in the lifetime of the sense, they're in the lifetime of the eyewitnesses to a certain degree. eyewitnesses to a certain degree. eyewitnesses to a certain degree. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And there's evidence even within some of >> And there's evidence even within some of >> And there's evidence even within some of the gospels where you have these names the gospels where you have these names the gospels where you have these names thrown out kind of randomly. And part of thrown out kind of randomly. And part of thrown out kind of randomly. And part of the thinking of that is that this is the thinking of that is that this is the thinking of that is that this is like citing your sources. At one point like citing your sources. At one point like citing your sources. At one point when Jesus is carrying the cross to when Jesus is carrying the cross to when Jesus is carrying the cross to Galatha, Galatha, Galatha, >> he kind of stumbles and they get another >> he kind of stumbles and they get another >> he kind of stumbles and they get another person to carry his cross for a little person to carry his cross for a little person to carry his cross for a little bit. bit. bit. >> And that person is Joseph of Arythea. >> And that person is Joseph of Arythea. >> And that person is Joseph of Arythea. Well, one of the gospels names one of Well, one of the gospels names one of Well, one of the gospels names one of Joseph of Arythea's son by name. And the Joseph of Arythea's son by name. And the Joseph of Arythea's son by name. And the thinking is that this is probably thinking is that this is probably thinking is that this is probably someone who's well known within the someone who's well known within the someone who's well known within the early Jesus community. And the purpose early Jesus community. And the purpose early Jesus community. And the purpose of naming that person randomly is to say of naming that person randomly is to say of naming that person randomly is to say he's actually well known. Go ask him. he's actually well known. Go ask him. he's actually well known. Go ask him. >> I mean logically there's quite a risk of >> I mean logically there's quite a risk of >> I mean logically there's quite a risk of Chinese whispers to some degree. Chinese whispers to some degree. Chinese whispers to some degree. >> As you were speaking I was trying to >> As you were speaking I was trying to >> As you were speaking I was trying to think about things that I experienced think about things that I experienced think about things that I experienced when I was younger like with my like when I was younger like with my like when I was younger like with my like grandmother before she passed away and I grandmother before she passed away and I grandmother before she passed away and I was trying to like accurately recount was trying to like accurately recount was trying to like accurately recount those memories. those memories. those memories. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I was thinking of like going to her >> I was thinking of like going to her >> I was thinking of like going to her house and then house and then house and then >> I remember one day she gave me some >> I remember one day she gave me some >> I remember one day she gave me some money but I can't remember what she gave money but I can't remember what she gave money but I can't remember what she gave it to me for and I can't remember how it to me for and I can't remember how it to me for and I can't remember how much she gave me. I know she put it in a much she gave me. I know she put it in a much she gave me. I know she put it in a card and this was only like hm 20 years card and this was only like hm 20 years card and this was only like hm 20 years ago. ago. ago. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so if I was to write about that >> And so if I was to write about that >> And so if I was to write about that today, I would be filling in some some today, I would be filling in some some today, I would be filling in some some gaps, especially especially this is the gaps, especially especially this is the gaps, especially especially this is the other thing that I always struggled with other thing that I always struggled with other thing that I always struggled with is like especially in a world where we is like especially in a world where we is like especially in a world where we didn't understand science. Now my didn't understand science. Now my didn't understand science. Now my grandmother like put it in a card and it grandmother like put it in a card and it grandmother like put it in a card and it was like I opened it and the way she did was like I opened it and the way she did was like I opened it and the way she did it was often as a surprise. So in a it was often as a surprise. So in a it was often as a surprise. So in a world where I like didn't understand world where I like didn't understand world where I like didn't understand physics or science, I might have physics or science, I might have physics or science, I might have concluded that my mother, my grandmother concluded that my mother, my grandmother concluded that my mother, my grandmother did something like magical, did something like magical, did something like magical, >> you know, at a time when we didn't >> you know, at a time when we didn't >> you know, at a time when we didn't understand anything about like really understand anything about like really understand anything about like really much about the nature of the universe much about the nature of the universe much about the nature of the universe and planets and the solar system and and planets and the solar system and and planets and the solar system and physics. physics. physics. >> So is that a risk that some of the >> So is that a risk that some of the >> So is that a risk that some of the things that have been transmuted by God things that have been transmuted by God things that have been transmuted by God into this book in front of me are prone into this book in front of me are prone into this book in front of me are prone to Chinese whispers and or just like a to Chinese whispers and or just like a to Chinese whispers and or just like a lack of understanding about the nature lack of understanding about the nature lack of understanding about the nature of the world like the resurrection for of the world like the resurrection for of the world like the resurrection for example. example. example. >> Yeah. So this is uh this is in my field >> Yeah. So this is uh this is in my field >> Yeah. So this is uh this is in my field referred to as mythological drift. So referred to as mythological drift. So referred to as mythological drift. So how do we factor in making sure that how do we factor in making sure that how do we factor in making sure that mythological drift doesn't happen? I mythological drift doesn't happen? I mythological drift doesn't happen? I think there are a couple things related think there are a couple things related think there are a couple things related to what you said. First off, I think I to what you said. First off, I think I to what you said. First off, I think I would be careful in trying to ascribe would be careful in trying to ascribe would be careful in trying to ascribe the ancient world as being the ancient world as being the ancient world as being pres-scientific and therefore largely pres-scientific and therefore largely pres-scientific and therefore largely say ignorant. I mean, even when the say ignorant. I mean, even when the say ignorant. I mean, even when the angel comes to Mary in the gospel story angel comes to Mary in the gospel story angel comes to Mary in the gospel story and says, "You're going to be with and says, "You're going to be with and says, "You're going to be with child." Mary's objection to the angel is child." Mary's objection to the angel is child." Mary's objection to the angel is a scientific one. I haven't met the a scientific one. I haven't met the a scientific one. I haven't met the minimum requirements of how babies are minimum requirements of how babies are minimum requirements of how babies are made, therefore I can't be pregnant, made, therefore I can't be pregnant, made, therefore I can't be pregnant, right? So, she's not dumb, right? She's right? So, she's not dumb, right? She's right? So, she's not dumb, right? She's not just at face value accepting that, not just at face value accepting that, not just at face value accepting that, you know, well, I believe in angels and you know, well, I believe in angels and you know, well, I believe in angels and so, you know, this kind of magic thing so, you know, this kind of magic thing so, you know, this kind of magic thing can happen. she's still objecting can happen. she's still objecting can happen. she's still objecting scientifically even though she might not scientifically even though she might not scientifically even though she might not have the terminology to understand like have the terminology to understand like have the terminology to understand like the complexities of child birth and the complexities of child birth and the complexities of child birth and embryology and all of that. So I would embryology and all of that. So I would embryology and all of that. So I would say you know this is what uh the writer say you know this is what uh the writer say you know this is what uh the writer CS Lewis calls chronological snobbery CS Lewis calls chronological snobbery CS Lewis calls chronological snobbery that he says you know we need to be that he says you know we need to be that he says you know we need to be careful of not to ascribe the ancient careful of not to ascribe the ancient careful of not to ascribe the ancient world as being more ignorant and stupid world as being more ignorant and stupid world as being more ignorant and stupid than than you know just because we are a than than you know just because we are a than than you know just because we are a product of the enlightenment and we product of the enlightenment and we product of the enlightenment and we understand scientific things. Yeah. The understand scientific things. Yeah. The understand scientific things. Yeah. The second thing is I think the the Chinese second thing is I think the the Chinese second thing is I think the the Chinese whispers or the telephone game or whispers or the telephone game or whispers or the telephone game or whatever you call it is a good is a good whatever you call it is a good is a good whatever you call it is a good is a good kind of case study. I think where it kind of case study. I think where it kind of case study. I think where it falls short is that if you play the falls short is that if you play the falls short is that if you play the telephone game, if you play Chinese telephone game, if you play Chinese telephone game, if you play Chinese whispers, there are rules in order to whispers, there are rules in order to whispers, there are rules in order to corrupt the message. So you have to corrupt the message. So you have to corrupt the message. So you have to whisper, you can only say it once. You whisper, you can only say it once. You whisper, you can only say it once. You have to do it one person to one person. have to do it one person to one person. have to do it one person to one person. In an oral culture, you would have been In an oral culture, you would have been In an oral culture, you would have been hearing these stories constantly. So hearing these stories constantly. So hearing these stories constantly. So when some of these stories are told, when some of these stories are told, when some of these stories are told, they're being told within a lifetime they're being told within a lifetime they're being told within a lifetime where there could have been individuals where there could have been individuals where there could have been individuals who say the story of the feeding of the who say the story of the feeding of the who say the story of the feeding of the 5000, that's a lot of people. So there's 5000, that's a lot of people. So there's 5000, that's a lot of people. So there's a lot of witnesses to this particular a lot of witnesses to this particular a lot of witnesses to this particular event. So if you're writing this down, event. So if you're writing this down, event. So if you're writing this down, there's an aspect of there are people there's an aspect of there are people there's an aspect of there are people out there who could verify what is being out there who could verify what is being out there who could verify what is being said, at least orally, not necessarily said, at least orally, not necessarily said, at least orally, not necessarily like literarily. Likewise, like literarily. Likewise, like literarily. Likewise, what we have in the gospel accounts, what we have in the gospel accounts, what we have in the gospel accounts, particularly after Jesus's death, when particularly after Jesus's death, when particularly after Jesus's death, when the disciples proclaiming his the disciples proclaiming his the disciples proclaiming his resurrection, they go back to Jerusalem, resurrection, they go back to Jerusalem, resurrection, they go back to Jerusalem, which is the scene of the crime. So, which is the scene of the crime. So, which is the scene of the crime. So, they go back to the exact place where they go back to the exact place where they go back to the exact place where Jesus was crucified and start telling Jesus was crucified and start telling Jesus was crucified and start telling people he was risen from the dead. If people he was risen from the dead. If people he was risen from the dead. If there is some aspect of say there is some aspect of say there is some aspect of say disingenuousness and making up a story, disingenuousness and making up a story, disingenuousness and making up a story, don't go back to the place where don't go back to the place where don't go back to the place where everybody could have seen that thing everybody could have seen that thing everybody could have seen that thing happen to that degree. Right? So in in happen to that degree. Right? So in in happen to that degree. Right? So in in one sense, Chinese whispers is is a one sense, Chinese whispers is is a one sense, Chinese whispers is is a faulty analogy in that it's less like faulty analogy in that it's less like faulty analogy in that it's less like one person whispering into another's ear one person whispering into another's ear one person whispering into another's ear and more like a 100 people in a room all and more like a 100 people in a room all and more like a 100 people in a room all saying communicating the thing verbally saying communicating the thing verbally saying communicating the thing verbally and then getting the other people to and then getting the other people to and then getting the other people to repeat it back to them and then repeat it back to them and then repeat it back to them and then corroborating with the other individuals corroborating with the other individuals corroborating with the other individuals of what's going on. Now I think there I of what's going on. Now I think there I of what's going on. Now I think there I think your point in in the story of your think your point in in the story of your think your point in in the story of your your grandmother and you know the the your grandmother and you know the the your grandmother and you know the the the letter and is a good one. You know the letter and is a good one. You know the letter and is a good one. You know how do we remember things? Do you how do we remember things? Do you how do we remember things? Do you remember 9/11? remember 9/11? remember 9/11? >> Yes, I do. Yes. And I was in the the UK >> Yes, I do. Yes. And I was in the the UK >> Yes, I do. Yes. And I was in the the UK at the time. at the time. at the time. >> Could you tell me a little bit more >> Could you tell me a little bit more >> Could you tell me a little bit more vividly what what you were doing on 911 vividly what what you were doing on 911 vividly what what you were doing on 911 compared to your grandmother and the compared to your grandmother and the compared to your grandmother and the letter? letter? letter? >> Yes, I could. Yeah. I remember coming >> Yes, I could. Yeah. I remember coming >> Yes, I could. Yeah. I remember coming home from school and like watching it on home from school and like watching it on home from school and like watching it on the screen and my and my dad having it the screen and my and my dad having it the screen and my and my dad having it on the screen and usual just looking at on the screen and usual just looking at on the screen and usual just looking at the screen. the screen. the screen. >> Yeah, me too. So whereas I couldn't tell >> Yeah, me too. So whereas I couldn't tell >> Yeah, me too. So whereas I couldn't tell you much of what else happened during an you much of what else happened during an you much of what else happened during an average day in that year, I could tell average day in that year, I could tell average day in that year, I could tell you what happened on September 11th, you what happened on September 11th, you what happened on September 11th, 2001. And that's because of the nature 2001. And that's because of the nature 2001. And that's because of the nature of what was going on. And I think when of what was going on. And I think when of what was going on. And I think when we're talking about the gospel stories we're talking about the gospel stories we're talking about the gospel stories in particular, first you have what I in particular, first you have what I in particular, first you have what I genuinely believe are eyewitness genuinely believe are eyewitness genuinely believe are eyewitness accounts from at least the source accounts from at least the source accounts from at least the source information coming from a group who information coming from a group who information coming from a group who would have heard Jesus be preaching would have heard Jesus be preaching would have heard Jesus be preaching these things multiple times in multiple these things multiple times in multiple these things multiple times in multiple different settings. Like it's it's different settings. Like it's it's different settings. Like it's it's probably likely myself as an itinerate I probably likely myself as an itinerate I probably likely myself as an itinerate I have given the same talk on a particular have given the same talk on a particular have given the same talk on a particular subject quite a few times. Yeah. And I subject quite a few times. Yeah. And I subject quite a few times. Yeah. And I joke with my wife that she could give my joke with my wife that she could give my joke with my wife that she could give my talk on the historical reliability of talk on the historical reliability of talk on the historical reliability of the Bible herself. You know, if I'm the Bible herself. You know, if I'm the Bible herself. You know, if I'm sick, I'll just send my wife, right? Cuz sick, I'll just send my wife, right? Cuz sick, I'll just send my wife, right? Cuz she's heard it so many times. I think she's heard it so many times. I think she's heard it so many times. I think that's the case that's going on with the that's the case that's going on with the that's the case that's going on with the disciples. disciples. disciples. >> There's an aspect of they would have >> There's an aspect of they would have >> There's an aspect of they would have heard say the biatitudes. heard say the biatitudes. heard say the biatitudes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That Jesus most likely more than once is >> That Jesus most likely more than once is >> That Jesus most likely more than once is the case because that's just the nature the case because that's just the nature the case because that's just the nature of not just itinerate speaking but even of not just itinerate speaking but even of not just itinerate speaking but even traveling rabbis in in the ancient traveling rabbis in in the ancient traveling rabbis in in the ancient world. And then you have this event that world. And then you have this event that world. And then you have this event that is kind of earthshattering in terms of is kind of earthshattering in terms of is kind of earthshattering in terms of their narrative of who they are. They've their narrative of who they are. They've their narrative of who they are. They've been traveling with this rabbi for 3 been traveling with this rabbi for 3 been traveling with this rabbi for 3 years straight. They've been hearing his years straight. They've been hearing his years straight. They've been hearing his teaching. They've been seeing miracles teaching. They've been seeing miracles teaching. They've been seeing miracles at least that are recorded in the at least that are recorded in the at least that are recorded in the gospels. gospels. gospels. Pretty phenomenal things. And then he Pretty phenomenal things. And then he Pretty phenomenal things. And then he gets taken and he's murdered publicly. gets taken and he's murdered publicly. gets taken and he's murdered publicly. And they think it's over. They think, And they think it's over. They think, And they think it's over. They think, you know, there are other messianic you know, there are other messianic you know, there are other messianic movements in the ancient world. most of movements in the ancient world. most of movements in the ancient world. most of which you and I aren't hearing on a which you and I aren't hearing on a which you and I aren't hearing on a regular basis because when those regular basis because when those regular basis because when those individuals die, their movement dies individuals die, their movement dies individuals die, their movement dies with them. And so that's what they think with them. And so that's what they think with them. And so that's what they think is happening, right? So they think, is happening, right? So they think, is happening, right? So they think, "Okay, we're done." "Okay, we're done." "Okay, we're done." So the story is they're hiding in this So the story is they're hiding in this So the story is they're hiding in this upper room and they're scared. In fact, upper room and they're scared. In fact, upper room and they're scared. In fact, it's the women who take on the it's the women who take on the it's the women who take on the responsibility of like going and responsibility of like going and responsibility of like going and figuring things out, which in terms of figuring things out, which in terms of figuring things out, which in terms of the time period is actually an the time period is actually an the time period is actually an embarrassing fact because of the kind of embarrassing fact because of the kind of embarrassing fact because of the kind of cultural dynamics of what's going on. cultural dynamics of what's going on. cultural dynamics of what's going on. And so And so And so you have the disciples who think it's you have the disciples who think it's you have the disciples who think it's over. What is it that has 11 scared over. What is it that has 11 scared over. What is it that has 11 scared disciples because one of them Judas goes disciples because one of them Judas goes disciples because one of them Judas goes and he kills himself. 11 scared and he kills himself. 11 scared and he kills himself. 11 scared disciples hiding in an upper room disciples hiding in an upper room disciples hiding in an upper room thinking that's it. We're done. We might thinking that's it. We're done. We might thinking that's it. We're done. We might as well, you know, Peter, James, and as well, you know, Peter, James, and as well, you know, Peter, James, and John might as well just go back to being John might as well just go back to being John might as well just go back to being fishermen cuz that's all she wrote. to fishermen cuz that's all she wrote. to fishermen cuz that's all she wrote. to then having the boldness to go out and then having the boldness to go out and then having the boldness to go out and actually proclaim this message actually proclaim this message actually proclaim this message ultimately to ultimately to ultimately to the level of persecution and hardship the level of persecution and hardship the level of persecution and hardship that they endure for the rest of their that they endure for the rest of their that they endure for the rest of their lives. Well, it's that their rabbi then lives. Well, it's that their rabbi then lives. Well, it's that their rabbi then shows up alive again. And so, at shows up alive again. And so, at shows up alive again. And so, at minimum, I think what we can say is that minimum, I think what we can say is that minimum, I think what we can say is that this is a pretty drastic event that this is a pretty drastic event that this is a pretty drastic event that takes place in their life. It's a takes place in their life. It's a takes place in their life. It's a comparative to a 9/11 event for them. comparative to a 9/11 event for them. comparative to a 9/11 event for them. And so in terms of like the memory And so in terms of like the memory And so in terms of like the memory imprint that they are experiencing imprint that they are experiencing imprint that they are experiencing for the murder of their rabbi of their for the murder of their rabbi of their for the murder of their rabbi of their teacher and then something teacher and then something teacher and then something happening where they then go happening where they then go happening where they then go for the rest of their lives. The for the rest of their lives. The for the rest of their lives. The martyrdom stories are a little bit martyrdom stories are a little bit martyrdom stories are a little bit tricky in terms of their historical tricky in terms of their historical tricky in terms of their historical reliability. I think a few of them we reliability. I think a few of them we reliability. I think a few of them we can say did happen. can say did happen. can say did happen. a lot of them is kind of up in the air a lot of them is kind of up in the air a lot of them is kind of up in the air but at minimum they suffered but at minimum they suffered but at minimum they suffered persecution. persecution. persecution. >> So the story in the Bible is that he was >> So the story in the Bible is that he was >> So the story in the Bible is that he was killed on the cross, murdered on the killed on the cross, murdered on the killed on the cross, murdered on the cross and then he was put into a tomb cross and then he was put into a tomb cross and then he was put into a tomb >> and then who saw him come out of the >> and then who saw him come out of the >> and then who saw him come out of the tomb. tomb. tomb. >> So nobody physically sees him come out >> So nobody physically sees him come out >> So nobody physically sees him come out of the tomb. But the women go to the of the tomb. But the women go to the of the tomb. But the women go to the tomb in the morning and on the third day tomb in the morning and on the third day tomb in the morning and on the third day and the tomb is empty. And so there are and the tomb is empty. And so there are and the tomb is empty. And so there are four accounts, right? And I think it's four accounts, right? And I think it's four accounts, right? And I think it's interesting also that we have four interesting also that we have four interesting also that we have four accounts that kind of give different accounts that kind of give different accounts that kind of give different angles on the stories. They're not it's angles on the stories. They're not it's angles on the stories. They're not it's not as if they got together and they not as if they got together and they not as if they got together and they corroborated and all gave the same corroborated and all gave the same corroborated and all gave the same story. The fact is that we have four story. The fact is that we have four story. The fact is that we have four accounts that kind of capitalize on accounts that kind of capitalize on accounts that kind of capitalize on different angles, which the different angles, which the different angles, which the differentiation in detail, I think, differentiation in detail, I think, differentiation in detail, I think, actually gives credibility to the the actually gives credibility to the the actually gives credibility to the the reliability of it. Because if they were reliability of it. Because if they were reliability of it. Because if they were all telling the same thing, you could all telling the same thing, you could all telling the same thing, you could argue that they got together and they argue that they got together and they argue that they got together and they colluded. They don't do that. In fact, colluded. They don't do that. In fact, colluded. They don't do that. In fact, they they touch on different aspects of they they touch on different aspects of they they touch on different aspects of the story. the story. the story. >> Are these people saying that they saw >> Are these people saying that they saw >> Are these people saying that they saw him walk out? Are they saying that they him walk out? Are they saying that they him walk out? Are they saying that they just saw it empty? What is the claims just saw it empty? What is the claims just saw it empty? What is the claims being made about his resurrection from being made about his resurrection from being made about his resurrection from these witnesses? these witnesses? these witnesses? >> Yeah. So, the tomb is empty. >> Yeah. So, the tomb is empty. >> Yeah. So, the tomb is empty. >> The tomb is empty. >> The tomb is empty. >> The tomb is empty. >> And so, it's interesting in in one of >> And so, it's interesting in in one of >> And so, it's interesting in in one of the accounts, um, Mary's at the tomb, the accounts, um, Mary's at the tomb, the accounts, um, Mary's at the tomb, and she actually talks to Jesus, but she and she actually talks to Jesus, but she and she actually talks to Jesus, but she confuses him with a gardener. Now, I confuses him with a gardener. Now, I confuses him with a gardener. Now, I think it's it's interesting that she think it's it's interesting that she think it's it's interesting that she doesn't confuse the gardener with Jesus. doesn't confuse the gardener with Jesus. doesn't confuse the gardener with Jesus. She confuses Jesus with the gardener. She confuses Jesus with the gardener. She confuses Jesus with the gardener. Like, she thinks that that this person Like, she thinks that that this person Like, she thinks that that this person she's talking to isn't Jesus. She she's talking to isn't Jesus. She she's talking to isn't Jesus. She doesn't recognize him at first. And she doesn't recognize him at first. And she doesn't recognize him at first. And she she asks him, you know, what happened? she asks him, you know, what happened? she asks him, you know, what happened? Why is the tomb opened? Where did the Why is the tomb opened? Where did the Why is the tomb opened? Where did the body go? And then there's also an body go? And then there's also an body go? And then there's also an account of an angel appearing and account of an angel appearing and account of an angel appearing and saying, why are you looking for the saying, why are you looking for the saying, why are you looking for the living among the dead? He's not here. living among the dead? He's not here. living among the dead? He's not here. He's risen. And then they go back to the He's risen. And then they go back to the He's risen. And then they go back to the disciples who are, you know, hiding in disciples who are, you know, hiding in disciples who are, you know, hiding in this upper room. Mary says, you know, I this upper room. Mary says, you know, I this upper room. Mary says, you know, I I've I met the tomb's empty. I've met I've I met the tomb's empty. I've met I've I met the tomb's empty. I've met Jesus. Jesus is not in the the tomb. Jesus. Jesus is not in the the tomb. Jesus. Jesus is not in the the tomb. He's risen. And some of them don't even He's risen. And some of them don't even He's risen. And some of them don't even believe her. They think she's crazy. believe her. They think she's crazy. believe her. They think she's crazy. Now, we don't have like an eyewitness Now, we don't have like an eyewitness Now, we don't have like an eyewitness account of the tomb being open. And this account of the tomb being open. And this account of the tomb being open. And this is actually an embarrassing fact in the is actually an embarrassing fact in the is actually an embarrassing fact in the ancient world. So some of those other ancient world. So some of those other ancient world. So some of those other gospels that I mentioned earlier that gospels that I mentioned earlier that gospels that I mentioned earlier that are written later on, Gospel of Thomas, are written later on, Gospel of Thomas, are written later on, Gospel of Thomas, Judas, Mary, Peter, there's one of them, Judas, Mary, Peter, there's one of them, Judas, Mary, Peter, there's one of them, the Gospel of Peter, which is actually the Gospel of Peter, which is actually the Gospel of Peter, which is actually trying to remedy this fact that women trying to remedy this fact that women trying to remedy this fact that women are the first eyewitnesses to the empty are the first eyewitnesses to the empty are the first eyewitnesses to the empty tomb, which is a which is an tomb, which is a which is an tomb, which is a which is an embarrassing fact in the ancient world. embarrassing fact in the ancient world. embarrassing fact in the ancient world. If that's not true, if they made it up, If that's not true, if they made it up, If that's not true, if they made it up, it seems very unlikely that they would it seems very unlikely that they would it seems very unlikely that they would have done that because women are not have done that because women are not have done that because women are not considered good eyewitnesses in either considered good eyewitnesses in either considered good eyewitnesses in either Greco Roman or unfortunately Jewish Greco Roman or unfortunately Jewish Greco Roman or unfortunately Jewish society in this time period. So the society in this time period. So the society in this time period. So the gospel of Peter tries to remedy the gospel of Peter tries to remedy the gospel of Peter tries to remedy the situation by having all of the right situation by having all of the right situation by having all of the right people in the right place at the right people in the right place at the right people in the right place at the right time. It has the Jewish and the Roman time. It has the Jewish and the Roman time. It has the Jewish and the Roman officials camping out in front of the officials camping out in front of the officials camping out in front of the tomb when it actually happens. And then tomb when it actually happens. And then tomb when it actually happens. And then has this recounted the story of the the has this recounted the story of the the has this recounted the story of the the literally the stone moving, Jesus coming literally the stone moving, Jesus coming literally the stone moving, Jesus coming out, all these things. Now, we know it's out, all these things. Now, we know it's out, all these things. Now, we know it's not historically reliable. We know that not historically reliable. We know that not historically reliable. We know that because of when it was written. We also because of when it was written. We also because of when it was written. We also know that on the eve of Passover, the know that on the eve of Passover, the know that on the eve of Passover, the priests would not be camping out in priests would not be camping out in priests would not be camping out in front of a dead body. It's just front of a dead body. It's just front of a dead body. It's just historically um anacronistic. historically um anacronistic. historically um anacronistic. But it is an account of a literary But it is an account of a literary But it is an account of a literary source later on that is embarrassed by source later on that is embarrassed by source later on that is embarrassed by what we find in here about the what we find in here about the what we find in here about the biographical information of the empty biographical information of the empty biographical information of the empty tomb. tomb. tomb. >> So is it just two women that said they >> So is it just two women that said they >> So is it just two women that said they met Jesus in some form after his death? met Jesus in some form after his death? met Jesus in some form after his death? Mary being one of them which was his Mary being one of them which was his Mary being one of them which was his mother. mother. mother. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Who's Mary? >> Who's Mary? >> Who's Mary? >> Mary. So there are a number of Marys in >> Mary. So there are a number of Marys in >> Mary. So there are a number of Marys in in the New Testament. Um this was Mary in the New Testament. Um this was Mary in the New Testament. Um this was Mary Magdalene. Magdalene. Magdalene. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah. who who was like a close >> Yeah. who who was like a close >> Yeah. who who was like a close associate. associate. associate. >> Okay. Like a friend. >> Okay. Like a friend. >> Okay. Like a friend. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, a friend. And then was there >> Okay. So, a friend. And then was there >> Okay. So, a friend. And then was there is it just her that says she saw him is it just her that says she saw him is it just her that says she saw him >> in there was a group of them. >> in there was a group of them. >> in there was a group of them. >> A group of them. >> A group of them. >> A group of them. >> Yeah. Of the women. >> Yeah. Of the women. >> Yeah. Of the women. >> Okay. And they were separate when they >> Okay. And they were separate when they >> Okay. And they were separate when they saw him. They weren't they were on their saw him. They weren't they were on their saw him. They weren't they were on their own. own. own. >> They were together. So, one of the >> They were together. So, one of the >> They were together. So, one of the gospel only mentions Mary. gospel only mentions Mary. gospel only mentions Mary. >> I believe it's the Gospel of John. But >> I believe it's the Gospel of John. But >> I believe it's the Gospel of John. But like I said before, it implies that like I said before, it implies that like I said before, it implies that there are more because she says we don't there are more because she says we don't there are more because she says we don't know where they put the body. know where they put the body. know where they put the body. >> Okay. So though that account only has >> Okay. So though that account only has >> Okay. So though that account only has her her her recounting it, it implies that there are recounting it, it implies that there are recounting it, it implies that there are others and then the other gospels have others and then the other gospels have others and then the other gospels have more women that are going to the tomb. more women that are going to the tomb. more women that are going to the tomb. >> As a percentage, what degree of >> As a percentage, what degree of >> As a percentage, what degree of certainty do you have that he was certainty do you have that he was certainty do you have that he was resurrected and that um he was who he resurrected and that um he was who he resurrected and that um he was who he said he was? Cuz I agree with you that said he was? Cuz I agree with you that said he was? Cuz I agree with you that this character clearly existed like this character clearly existed like this character clearly existed like Jesus clearly existed. I personally Jesus clearly existed. I personally Jesus clearly existed. I personally believe that he was he was killed believe that he was he was killed believe that he was he was killed >> probably on a cross. >> probably on a cross. >> probably on a cross. >> But then you get to this point of >> But then you get to this point of >> But then you get to this point of resurrection which you have to then resurrection which you have to then resurrection which you have to then believe in something supernatural. believe in something supernatural. believe in something supernatural. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So what's the probability you'd assign >> So what's the probability you'd assign >> So what's the probability you'd assign to it? to it? to it? >> I I >> I I >> I I >> if it was like likely, unlikely, very >> if it was like likely, unlikely, very >> if it was like likely, unlikely, very likely. likely. likely. >> They're all likely because I think that >> They're all likely because I think that >> They're all likely because I think that what the gospel authors are doing is what the gospel authors are doing is what the gospel authors are doing is communicating truth. And I don't communicating truth. And I don't communicating truth. And I don't ultimately see an overabundance of ultimately see an overabundance of ultimately see an overabundance of reason why they would write what they reason why they would write what they reason why they would write what they wrote other than actually recounting a wrote other than actually recounting a wrote other than actually recounting a story of what took place. story of what took place. story of what took place. >> I grew up in a place called Plymouth in >> I grew up in a place called Plymouth in >> I grew up in a place called Plymouth in the UK. I was born in Africa and in my the UK. I was born in Africa and in my the UK. I was born in Africa and in my local park there was this big poster on local park there was this big poster on local park there was this big poster on the wall about the white lady. I'll put the wall about the white lady. I'll put the wall about the white lady. I'll put it up on the screen. It's like a big it up on the screen. It's like a big it up on the screen. It's like a big legend in our city. It's this park and legend in our city. It's this park and legend in our city. It's this park and everybody says that they see this white everybody says that they see this white everybody says that they see this white lady in the park that was killed. And lady in the park that was killed. And lady in the park that was killed. And actually, there's a big board explaining actually, there's a big board explaining actually, there's a big board explaining her life, but it's all just accounts of her life, but it's all just accounts of her life, but it's all just accounts of people that say they've seen her. people that say they've seen her. people that say they've seen her. >> You have things like the Loch Ness >> You have things like the Loch Ness >> You have things like the Loch Ness monster in Scotland as well, where monster in Scotland as well, where monster in Scotland as well, where there's been 1,500 sightings of this big there's been 1,500 sightings of this big there's been 1,500 sightings of this big monster in the river. And even up until monster in the river. And even up until monster in the river. And even up until recent times, 2025, there was a surge of recent times, 2025, there was a surge of recent times, 2025, there was a surge of sightings of the Loch Ness monster sightings of the Loch Ness monster sightings of the Loch Ness monster called the Black Mass in in in the bay. called the Black Mass in in in the bay. called the Black Mass in in in the bay. >> Um, and that started in 565 AD. So, one >> Um, and that started in 565 AD. So, one >> Um, and that started in 565 AD. So, one of the things that I've always sort of of the things that I've always sort of of the things that I've always sort of struggled with when I think about humans struggled with when I think about humans struggled with when I think about humans saying they saw something is we still saying they saw something is we still saying they saw something is we still today have sightings of UFOs and Loch today have sightings of UFOs and Loch today have sightings of UFOs and Loch Ness monsters and white ladies in parks Ness monsters and white ladies in parks Ness monsters and white ladies in parks that become legend. And actually with that become legend. And actually with that become legend. And actually with the Loch Ness monster, it's pretty the Loch Ness monster, it's pretty the Loch Ness monster, it's pretty interesting that even today there are interesting that even today there are interesting that even today there are sightings all the time of this monster sightings all the time of this monster sightings all the time of this monster that lives in the river. Now, I think that lives in the river. Now, I think that lives in the river. Now, I think maybe me and you both agree that there's maybe me and you both agree that there's maybe me and you both agree that there's no monster in the river, no monster in the river, no monster in the river, >> but there's something going on. There's >> but there's something going on. There's >> but there's something going on. There's something in human nature where we do something in human nature where we do something in human nature where we do have like a proclivity to engage in have like a proclivity to engage in have like a proclivity to engage in supernatural sightings and then once supernatural sightings and then once supernatural sightings and then once we've heard it once, we then reinforce we've heard it once, we then reinforce we've heard it once, we then reinforce that we've seen it too. And even as like that we've seen it too. And even as like that we've seen it too. And even as like a young man, I mean, maybe you believe a young man, I mean, maybe you believe a young man, I mean, maybe you believe this, but like I believe that there was this, but like I believe that there was this, but like I believe that there was a woman that would stand on the landing a woman that would stand on the landing a woman that would stand on the landing of my home and it would like wake me up of my home and it would like wake me up of my home and it would like wake me up and I would run and and tell my parents and I would run and and tell my parents and I would run and and tell my parents that the lady stood on the landing. that the lady stood on the landing. that the lady stood on the landing. Again, there's people watching this that Again, there's people watching this that Again, there's people watching this that think that there was actually a lady. think that there was actually a lady. think that there was actually a lady. Probably maybe there was. But I you know Probably maybe there was. But I you know Probably maybe there was. But I you know what I'm getting at is like how do how what I'm getting at is like how do how what I'm getting at is like how do how can we trust human accounts of these can we trust human accounts of these can we trust human accounts of these things when clearly humans have an things when clearly humans have an things when clearly humans have an ability to make make things up that ability to make make things up that ability to make make things up that aren't real in some situations. aren't real in some situations. aren't real in some situations. >> Sure. Part of the answer to the question >> Sure. Part of the answer to the question >> Sure. Part of the answer to the question is one of the evidences for Jesus's is one of the evidences for Jesus's is one of the evidences for Jesus's resurrection is the fact that you and I resurrection is the fact that you and I resurrection is the fact that you and I are still talking about it almost 2,000 are still talking about it almost 2,000 are still talking about it almost 2,000 years later. years later. years later. >> My friend said this to me. I was telling >> My friend said this to me. I was telling >> My friend said this to me. I was telling you before about my Christian friend. He you before about my Christian friend. He you before about my Christian friend. He was like why are we still talking about was like why are we still talking about was like why are we still talking about it? Well I we can't prove it. it? Well I we can't prove it. it? Well I we can't prove it. >> It wasn't it didn't happen. So we're >> It wasn't it didn't happen. So we're >> It wasn't it didn't happen. So we're always going to talk about it. there's always going to talk about it. there's always going to talk about it. there's there's never going to be I mean unless there's never going to be I mean unless there's never going to be I mean unless >> something happens >> something happens >> something happens >> right the difference is that there are >> right the difference is that there are >> right the difference is that there are these other messianic movements that these other messianic movements that these other messianic movements that happened in the ancient world happened in the ancient world happened in the ancient world >> and so uh like uh Simon Barora the >> and so uh like uh Simon Barora the >> and so uh like uh Simon Barora the reason why we're not talking about Simon reason why we're not talking about Simon reason why we're not talking about Simon Barora as a messianic figure is because Barora as a messianic figure is because Barora as a messianic figure is because he died and his movement died with him he died and his movement died with him he died and his movement died with him >> and his disciples didn't go out and then >> and his disciples didn't go out and then >> and his disciples didn't go out and then proclaim his continued message until proclaim his continued message until proclaim his continued message until like to their own detriment so I would like to their own detriment so I would like to their own detriment so I would say a few things I would say liars make say a few things I would say liars make say a few things I would say liars make poor martyrs in that you will die for poor martyrs in that you will die for poor martyrs in that you will die for something you believe is true, but the something you believe is true, but the something you believe is true, but the chances of you dying for something you chances of you dying for something you chances of you dying for something you know is not true know is not true know is not true >> are less likely. So if we're talking >> are less likely. So if we're talking >> are less likely. So if we're talking about the disciples and especially if about the disciples and especially if about the disciples and especially if what they're getting for this particular what they're getting for this particular what they're getting for this particular proclamation is they're being ostracized proclamation is they're being ostracized proclamation is they're being ostracized from their own communities, pagan from their own communities, pagan from their own communities, pagan gentile communities and the Jewish gentile communities and the Jewish gentile communities and the Jewish communities because remember there was communities because remember there was communities because remember there was persecution on both sides because it was persecution on both sides because it was persecution on both sides because it was at a certain point in time continuing to at a certain point in time continuing to at a certain point in time continuing to say that Jesus was the Messiah and on say that Jesus was the Messiah and on say that Jesus was the Messiah and on top of that that he was God himself top of that that he was God himself top of that that he was God himself was not very popular Within the early was not very popular Within the early was not very popular Within the early Jesus communities, there's a complexity Jesus communities, there's a complexity Jesus communities, there's a complexity to the fact that to the fact that to the fact that people usually lie. You look at cultic people usually lie. You look at cultic people usually lie. You look at cultic figures, right? Right. Cult leaders figures, right? Right. Cult leaders figures, right? Right. Cult leaders usually do things for prominence or usually do things for prominence or usually do things for prominence or money or sex or influence. The money or sex or influence. The money or sex or influence. The interesting thing about the early interesting thing about the early interesting thing about the early disciples is they get none of that. In disciples is they get none of that. In disciples is they get none of that. In fact, they almost get the complete fact, they almost get the complete fact, they almost get the complete opposite of that in that Jesus says, opposite of that in that Jesus says, opposite of that in that Jesus says, "You're going to be persecuted. you're "You're going to be persecuted. you're "You're going to be persecuted. you're going to be put in front of tri going to be put in front of tri going to be put in front of tri tribunals and you're going to be tribunals and you're going to be tribunals and you're going to be interrogated. And that's exactly what interrogated. And that's exactly what interrogated. And that's exactly what happens. And they know that there is happens. And they know that there is happens. And they know that there is there's a danger to this because we have there's a danger to this because we have there's a danger to this because we have in the book of Acts, which is the book in the book of Acts, which is the book in the book of Acts, which is the book after the gospels, we have a recounting after the gospels, we have a recounting after the gospels, we have a recounting of the first martyr of Steven. of the first martyr of Steven. of the first martyr of Steven. >> I think of like someone like Martin >> I think of like someone like Martin >> I think of like someone like Martin Luther King or Gandhi as being, you Luther King or Gandhi as being, you Luther King or Gandhi as being, you know, leaders from history that appeared know, leaders from history that appeared know, leaders from history that appeared to be from what I've understood very to be from what I've understood very to be from what I've understood very selfless and actually realized that they selfless and actually realized that they selfless and actually realized that they were all going to die. I'll never forget were all going to die. I'll never forget were all going to die. I'll never forget the speech actually where Martin Luther the speech actually where Martin Luther the speech actually where Martin Luther King says, "I've been to the mountain King says, "I've been to the mountain King says, "I've been to the mountain top." He was a very religious man, very top." He was a very religious man, very top." He was a very religious man, very Christian man, and says, "I've been to Christian man, and says, "I've been to Christian man, and says, "I've been to the mountain top. You guys get there, the mountain top. You guys get there, the mountain top. You guys get there, but I don't get there with you." but I don't get there with you." but I don't get there with you." >> Right? >> Right? >> Right? >> And then from the information I had, he >> And then from the information I had, he >> And then from the information I had, he died very, very shortly thereafter. And died very, very shortly thereafter. And died very, very shortly thereafter. And as he's saying, "I don't get there with as he's saying, "I don't get there with as he's saying, "I don't get there with you." He's he's emotional in his face. you." He's he's emotional in his face. you." He's he's emotional in his face. You see him crying. The video is was You see him crying. The video is was You see him crying. The video is was very con persuasive of the Christianity, very con persuasive of the Christianity, very con persuasive of the Christianity, by the way. by the way. by the way. >> Um, and then he's pulled off stage and >> Um, and then he's pulled off stage and >> Um, and then he's pulled off stage and then he's shot thereafter. feels like a then he's shot thereafter. feels like a then he's shot thereafter. feels like a man that knew he wasn't going to live man that knew he wasn't going to live man that knew he wasn't going to live much longer but was willing to put his much longer but was willing to put his much longer but was willing to put his cause ahead of um his own mortality and cause ahead of um his own mortality and cause ahead of um his own mortality and um I guess Jesus was doing the same um I guess Jesus was doing the same um I guess Jesus was doing the same >> in a certain regard in terms of the >> in a certain regard in terms of the >> in a certain regard in terms of the disciples though I think like if they disciples though I think like if they disciples though I think like if they know this isn't true if they know that know this isn't true if they know that know this isn't true if they know that there's this kind of this has been there's this kind of this has been there's this kind of this has been mythological drift if things have been mythological drift if things have been mythological drift if things have been exaggerated exaggerated exaggerated why then especially experiencing that why then especially experiencing that why then especially experiencing that persecution seeing their friends die in persecution seeing their friends die in persecution seeing their friends die in that kind of setting do they continue to that kind of setting do they continue to that kind of setting do they continue to go on and do it. go on and do it. go on and do it. >> I think they definitely believed it was >> I think they definitely believed it was >> I think they definitely believed it was true. true. true. >> Yes. I think at minimum whatever is >> Yes. I think at minimum whatever is >> Yes. I think at minimum whatever is going on they like you you look at some going on they like you you look at some going on they like you you look at some of these uh secular historians and they of these uh secular historians and they of these uh secular historians and they look at the data and they say whatever's look at the data and they say whatever's look at the data and they say whatever's going on the disciples believe something going on the disciples believe something going on the disciples believe something happened that they saw something happened that they saw something happened that they saw something >> and so the I just think that the >> and so the I just think that the >> and so the I just think that the explanations explanations explanations of the alternatives of that actually of the alternatives of that actually of the alternatives of that actually happening are insufficient in so far as happening are insufficient in so far as happening are insufficient in so far as how they actually explain the data. Do how they actually explain the data. Do how they actually explain the data. Do you have any doubt? you have any doubt? you have any doubt? >> Oh, of course. >> Oh, of course. >> Oh, of course. >> Okay. So, you have at least even 1% >> Okay. So, you have at least even 1% >> Okay. So, you have at least even 1% doubt. doubt. doubt. >> Oh, definitely. And I think especially >> Oh, definitely. And I think especially >> Oh, definitely. And I think especially when there are times of things that are when there are times of things that are when there are times of things that are far more existential than historical, far more existential than historical, far more existential than historical, when times of like struggle and pain and when times of like struggle and pain and when times of like struggle and pain and suffering, and I look at the world and I suffering, and I look at the world and I suffering, and I look at the world and I look at how messy it is, the children look at how messy it is, the children look at how messy it is, the children who die young, people who are abused, who die young, people who are abused, who die young, people who are abused, all of these things, I there are moments all of these things, I there are moments all of these things, I there are moments where I think, how how could there be a where I think, how how could there be a where I think, how how could there be a good God? I mean, I'm not immune to good God? I mean, I'm not immune to good God? I mean, I'm not immune to doubt. Um, and and the interesting thing doubt. Um, and and the interesting thing doubt. Um, and and the interesting thing that I find about the Bible is that the that I find about the Bible is that the that I find about the Bible is that the Bible is very open to the God of the Bible is very open to the God of the Bible is very open to the God of the Bible being open to us coming to him Bible being open to us coming to him Bible being open to us coming to him with our doubts. with our doubts. with our doubts. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> You know, onethird of the book of >> You know, onethird of the book of >> You know, onethird of the book of Psalms, which is like right in the Psalms, which is like right in the Psalms, which is like right in the middle of the Bible, this kind of poetic middle of the Bible, this kind of poetic middle of the Bible, this kind of poetic literature, if you want to call it that, literature, if you want to call it that, literature, if you want to call it that, are sometimes referred to as the lament are sometimes referred to as the lament are sometimes referred to as the lament or the complaint psalms. It's things or the complaint psalms. It's things or the complaint psalms. It's things like Psalm 22, my God, my God, why have like Psalm 22, my God, my God, why have like Psalm 22, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from you forsaken me? Why are you so far from you forsaken me? Why are you so far from me? I like I cry out by day and I hear me? I like I cry out by day and I hear me? I like I cry out by day and I hear no answer. And I think what's no answer. And I think what's no answer. And I think what's interesting that I find with the Bible interesting that I find with the Bible interesting that I find with the Bible is its transparency in saying we're is its transparency in saying we're is its transparency in saying we're going to struggle. You know, there's going to struggle. You know, there's going to struggle. You know, there's this really great story in the Gospel of this really great story in the Gospel of this really great story in the Gospel of John. Well, this is in a couple of the John. Well, this is in a couple of the John. Well, this is in a couple of the instances of the Gospels where John the instances of the Gospels where John the instances of the Gospels where John the Baptist who's like Jesus's cousin and Baptist who's like Jesus's cousin and Baptist who's like Jesus's cousin and good friend, he's been in prison because good friend, he's been in prison because good friend, he's been in prison because he's been speaking out against Herod. he's been speaking out against Herod. he's been speaking out against Herod. He's been being a little bit too verbal He's been being a little bit too verbal He's been being a little bit too verbal politically. And so he gets taken and politically. And so he gets taken and politically. And so he gets taken and he's in prison. And though he's the one he's in prison. And though he's the one he's in prison. And though he's the one that baptized Jesus and said, you know, that baptized Jesus and said, you know, that baptized Jesus and said, you know, behold the lamb of God who takes away behold the lamb of God who takes away behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. When he's in the sin of the world. When he's in the sin of the world. When he's in prison, he doubts and he sends his prison, he doubts and he sends his prison, he doubts and he sends his disciples over to Jesus to ask, are you disciples over to Jesus to ask, are you disciples over to Jesus to ask, are you the Messiah? Are you the one we're the Messiah? Are you the one we're the Messiah? Are you the one we're waiting for? Or should we we be waiting waiting for? Or should we we be waiting waiting for? Or should we we be waiting for another? Now, in that interaction, for another? Now, in that interaction, for another? Now, in that interaction, Jesus actually says, John the Baptist is Jesus actually says, John the Baptist is Jesus actually says, John the Baptist is the greatest of all men born of women, the greatest of all men born of women, the greatest of all men born of women, which is basically everybody, right? And which is basically everybody, right? And which is basically everybody, right? And yet in that very same setting, John the yet in that very same setting, John the yet in that very same setting, John the Baptist is doubting Baptist is doubting Baptist is doubting that Jesus is who he says he is because that Jesus is who he says he is because that Jesus is who he says he is because he's experiencing pain and suffering. he's experiencing pain and suffering. he's experiencing pain and suffering. >> On that point of um you seeing you know >> On that point of um you seeing you know >> On that point of um you seeing you know horrific things happening in the world horrific things happening in the world horrific things happening in the world and then having doubts. I think for me and then having doubts. I think for me and then having doubts. I think for me that was one of the persuasive arguments that was one of the persuasive arguments that was one of the persuasive arguments of the like new atheist movement that I of the like new atheist movement that I of the like new atheist movement that I became a part of when I was like 18 became a part of when I was like 18 became a part of when I was like 18 years old which was I think Richard years old which was I think Richard years old which was I think Richard Dawkins had said about you know if God Dawkins had said about you know if God Dawkins had said about you know if God is all loving is all loving is all loving >> then why would he let a 2-year-old kid >> then why would he let a 2-year-old kid >> then why would he let a 2-year-old kid in Africa have their eyeball eaten out in Africa have their eyeball eaten out in Africa have their eyeball eaten out from the inside by a parasite. from the inside by a parasite. from the inside by a parasite. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like if if if I could intervene with >> Like if if if I could intervene with >> Like if if if I could intervene with that because you know the assertion is that because you know the assertion is that because you know the assertion is that God is omnipotent or powerful and that God is omnipotent or powerful and that God is omnipotent or powerful and omnisient or present. omnisient or present. omnisient or present. >> Yeah. If I could intervene with that as >> Yeah. If I could intervene with that as >> Yeah. If I could intervene with that as a human, I would stop that. And so if a human, I would stop that. And so if a human, I would stop that. And so if God is omnipower, omnipotent, sorry, all God is omnipower, omnipotent, sorry, all God is omnipower, omnipotent, sorry, all powerful and omnipresent, knows powerful and omnipresent, knows powerful and omnipresent, knows everything and is everywhere, then why everything and is everywhere, then why everything and is everywhere, then why wouldn't he intervene with the baby wouldn't he intervene with the baby wouldn't he intervene with the baby having its eyeball eaten out from the having its eyeball eaten out from the having its eyeball eaten out from the inside? inside? inside? >> Yeah, it's it's a good point. And I >> Yeah, it's it's a good point. And I >> Yeah, it's it's a good point. And I think if there is an objection that is think if there is an objection that is think if there is an objection that is truly impactful on Christianity on in truly impactful on Christianity on in truly impactful on Christianity on in the atheist corner, it is the problem of the atheist corner, it is the problem of the atheist corner, it is the problem of evil and always has been because it's evil and always has been because it's evil and always has been because it's far more of an emotional and existential far more of an emotional and existential far more of an emotional and existential question than it is an intellectual question than it is an intellectual question than it is an intellectual question. Now, part of the problem with question. Now, part of the problem with question. Now, part of the problem with it is that if we're talking about evil it is that if we're talking about evil it is that if we're talking about evil with a capital E, we're implying that with a capital E, we're implying that with a capital E, we're implying that there's a good with a capital G. And so there's a good with a capital G. And so there's a good with a capital G. And so I think we do run into an issue when I think we do run into an issue when I think we do run into an issue when saying that evil exists or implying that saying that evil exists or implying that saying that evil exists or implying that good exists. And if we're implying that good exists. And if we're implying that good exists. And if we're implying that good exists, we're implying that there's good exists, we're implying that there's good exists, we're implying that there's a moral law to adhere to to call the a moral law to adhere to to call the a moral law to adhere to to call the good good and the evil evil. And if good good and the evil evil. And if good good and the evil evil. And if there's a moral law, then there has to there's a moral law, then there has to there's a moral law, then there has to be a moral lawgiver. And that's where we be a moral lawgiver. And that's where we be a moral lawgiver. And that's where we come into issues with is this subjective come into issues with is this subjective come into issues with is this subjective or is this objective. I think the or is this objective. I think the or is this objective. I think the atheist movement would argue that that atheist movement would argue that that atheist movement would argue that that moral good is virtue of what helps me to moral good is virtue of what helps me to moral good is virtue of what helps me to survive. So like watching a small child survive. So like watching a small child survive. So like watching a small child suffer in such a way. suffer in such a way. suffer in such a way. >> If I didn't feel anything bad about >> If I didn't feel anything bad about >> If I didn't feel anything bad about that, that, that, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> then I wouldn't have the wiring for >> then I wouldn't have the wiring for >> then I wouldn't have the wiring for survival because I wouldn't have the survival because I wouldn't have the survival because I wouldn't have the proclivity to defend a suffering child. proclivity to defend a suffering child. proclivity to defend a suffering child. If I don't have that, then I probably If I don't have that, then I probably If I don't have that, then I probably don't reproduce and I don't pass on my don't reproduce and I don't pass on my don't reproduce and I don't pass on my genes and then I'm selected out of genes and then I'm selected out of genes and then I'm selected out of existence. So that pain I feel when I existence. So that pain I feel when I existence. So that pain I feel when I see a child suffering is a function of see a child suffering is a function of see a child suffering is a function of my evolutionary mechanics that make me my evolutionary mechanics that make me my evolutionary mechanics that make me more likely to survive and anyone that more likely to survive and anyone that more likely to survive and anyone that didn't have that wouldn't have survived didn't have that wouldn't have survived didn't have that wouldn't have survived and wouldn't be here now. and wouldn't be here now. and wouldn't be here now. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> So evolution therefore is the answer. >> So evolution therefore is the answer. >> So evolution therefore is the answer. >> I think that might suffice in certain >> I think that might suffice in certain >> I think that might suffice in certain instances. However, it's still sort of instances. However, it's still sort of instances. However, it's still sort of smuggling in moral categories into a smuggling in moral categories into a smuggling in moral categories into a biological explanation. So part of I biological explanation. So part of I biological explanation. So part of I mean you read Richard Dawkins, you read mean you read Richard Dawkins, you read mean you read Richard Dawkins, you read you read River Out of Eden and he has you read River Out of Eden and he has you read River Out of Eden and he has that section where he talks about you that section where he talks about you that section where he talks about you know we shouldn't expect to see any know we shouldn't expect to see any know we shouldn't expect to see any rhyme or reason good or bad you know DNA rhyme or reason good or bad you know DNA rhyme or reason good or bad you know DNA neither knows nor cares. DNA just is and neither knows nor cares. DNA just is and neither knows nor cares. DNA just is and we dance to its music. And there's an we dance to its music. And there's an we dance to its music. And there's an aspect of Dawkins himself in that volume aspect of Dawkins himself in that volume aspect of Dawkins himself in that volume at least at that time when he wrote it at least at that time when he wrote it at least at that time when he wrote it articulating that at the end of it all articulating that at the end of it all articulating that at the end of it all there is no such thing as actually you there is no such thing as actually you there is no such thing as actually you can't call that parasite in that that can't call that parasite in that that can't call that parasite in that that boy's eye evil. You can say I don't like boy's eye evil. You can say I don't like boy's eye evil. You can say I don't like it, but to to import this moral category it, but to to import this moral category it, but to to import this moral category of evil is actually to import an idea. of evil is actually to import an idea. of evil is actually to import an idea. And this is actually what Dawkins was And this is actually what Dawkins was And this is actually what Dawkins was criticized by by individuals like John criticized by by individuals like John criticized by by individuals like John Gray, the philosopher who taught at the Gray, the philosopher who taught at the Gray, the philosopher who taught at the London School of Economics. And he says, London School of Economics. And he says, London School of Economics. And he says, you know, you're a really great you know, you're a really great you know, you're a really great biologist, biologist, biologist, but then you want to impart actual but then you want to impart actual but then you want to impart actual intrinsic value to people. And if you're intrinsic value to people. And if you're intrinsic value to people. And if you're looking at a simple selfish DNA looking at a simple selfish DNA looking at a simple selfish DNA perspective, you can't actually ascribe perspective, you can't actually ascribe perspective, you can't actually ascribe that because your DNA, your selfish DNA that because your DNA, your selfish DNA that because your DNA, your selfish DNA exists to carry on its exists to carry on its exists to carry on its selfish DNA. And so in one sense, that selfish DNA. And so in one sense, that selfish DNA. And so in one sense, that child has no bearing on you. Now, it child has no bearing on you. Now, it child has no bearing on you. Now, it might have like a a protective mechanism might have like a a protective mechanism might have like a a protective mechanism where you want to figure out why the where you want to figure out why the where you want to figure out why the child got the parasite, and so you try child got the parasite, and so you try child got the parasite, and so you try to avoid that in order to not get the to avoid that in order to not get the to avoid that in order to not get the parasite yourself. But science parasite yourself. But science parasite yourself. But science can't actually give you an explanation can't actually give you an explanation can't actually give you an explanation for what the moral implications are in for what the moral implications are in for what the moral implications are in that instance. Let me give you an that instance. Let me give you an that instance. Let me give you an example. example. example. >> I think I understand the point there. Um >> I think I understand the point there. Um >> I think I understand the point there. Um it's essentially asserting that like why it's essentially asserting that like why it's essentially asserting that like why does that child matter to me? Because my does that child matter to me? Because my does that child matter to me? Because my DNA should just be trying to take care DNA should just be trying to take care DNA should just be trying to take care of itself. of itself. of itself. >> Um I guess in biology there's um I don't >> Um I guess in biology there's um I don't >> Um I guess in biology there's um I don't always know who my child is. But also always know who my child is. But also always know who my child is. But also from an evolutionary perspective, if we from an evolutionary perspective, if we from an evolutionary perspective, if we were raised in communities and tribes, were raised in communities and tribes, were raised in communities and tribes, we took care of all of our the children. we took care of all of our the children. we took care of all of our the children. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> In in the surroundings, I would take >> In in the surroundings, I would take >> In in the surroundings, I would take care of my brother's children and he care of my brother's children and he care of my brother's children and he would take care of mine, therefore. would take care of mine, therefore. would take care of mine, therefore. >> Yep. Yeah. >> Yep. Yeah. >> Yep. Yeah. >> And again, that goes back to the point >> And again, that goes back to the point >> And again, that goes back to the point of survival, which means that I'm more of survival, which means that I'm more of survival, which means that I'm more likely to survive if I take care of like likely to survive if I take care of like likely to survive if I take care of like my community sort of. You you read my community sort of. You you read my community sort of. You you read something like uh the origin of species something like uh the origin of species something like uh the origin of species though like like uh Darwin himself though like like uh Darwin himself though like like uh Darwin himself when he's articulating the survival of when he's articulating the survival of when he's articulating the survival of the fittest there is an aspect of the fittest there is an aspect of the fittest there is an aspect of you shouldn't take care of those people you shouldn't take care of those people you shouldn't take care of those people because they're actually bringing the because they're actually bringing the because they're actually bringing the genetic gene pool down. So we see even genetic gene pool down. So we see even genetic gene pool down. So we see even in like the eugenics movement pulling a in like the eugenics movement pulling a in like the eugenics movement pulling a lot from individuals like Darwin in lot from individuals like Darwin in lot from individuals like Darwin in order to validate the fact that in order order to validate the fact that in order order to validate the fact that in order to carry on your selfish DNA, this idea to carry on your selfish DNA, this idea to carry on your selfish DNA, this idea of taking care of the marginalized and of taking care of the marginalized and of taking care of the marginalized and those with on the fringes of society and those with on the fringes of society and those with on the fringes of society and those who are the the lesser than is is those who are the the lesser than is is those who are the the lesser than is is not evolutionary advantageous because not evolutionary advantageous because not evolutionary advantageous because survival of the fittest implies that the survival of the fittest implies that the survival of the fittest implies that the fittest should survive and these are fittest should survive and these are fittest should survive and these are obviously not the fittest. It's actually obviously not the fittest. It's actually obviously not the fittest. It's actually a Judeo-Christian ethic in the a Judeo-Christian ethic in the a Judeo-Christian ethic in the understanding of everybody having equal understanding of everybody having equal understanding of everybody having equal value that we should be taking care of value that we should be taking care of value that we should be taking care of people because they have intrinsic people because they have intrinsic people because they have intrinsic value, not exttrinsic value. That allows value, not exttrinsic value. That allows value, not exttrinsic value. That allows us to then even import an idea of taking us to then even import an idea of taking us to then even import an idea of taking care of those who are not necessarily care of those who are not necessarily care of those who are not necessarily specifically related to me and mine. And specifically related to me and mine. And specifically related to me and mine. And it comes back to okay, where are we it comes back to okay, where are we it comes back to okay, where are we grounding this objectivity in? cuz there grounding this objectivity in? cuz there grounding this objectivity in? cuz there have been societies that have attempted have been societies that have attempted have been societies that have attempted to do it in like a might is right aspect to do it in like a might is right aspect to do it in like a might is right aspect and and you ground the objectivity of and and you ground the objectivity of and and you ground the objectivity of what we say is right in a society that what we say is right in a society that what we say is right in a society that says this is better for the most amount says this is better for the most amount says this is better for the most amount of individuals within a particular of individuals within a particular of individuals within a particular community. I think about um Yevel Noah community. I think about um Yevel Noah community. I think about um Yevel Noah Harrari Harari in his book Sapiens where Harrari Harari in his book Sapiens where Harrari Harari in his book Sapiens where he says that the real defining trait of he says that the real defining trait of he says that the real defining trait of >> our species versus other species was our >> our species versus other species was our >> our species versus other species was our ability to collaborate and basically ability to collaborate and basically ability to collaborate and basically scratch each other's backs scratch each other's backs scratch each other's backs >> and that that meant that we had um >> and that that meant that we had um >> and that that meant that we had um evolutionary advantages because if we evolutionary advantages because if we evolutionary advantages because if we could work together in a big group and could work together in a big group and could work together in a big group and we could believe in stories and we we could believe in stories and we we could believe in stories and we believe in money and prison and believe in money and prison and believe in money and prison and governments etc. we could band together governments etc. we could band together governments etc. we could band together and take on the lion or band together and take on the lion or band together and take on the lion or band together and take on the elephant or whatever. and take on the elephant or whatever. and take on the elephant or whatever. And it's actually that in part there you And it's actually that in part there you And it's actually that in part there you have like I need to take care of you, have like I need to take care of you, have like I need to take care of you, you need to take care of me and we're you need to take care of me and we're you need to take care of me and we're going to reciprocate that altruism uh going to reciprocate that altruism uh going to reciprocate that altruism uh and increase our survival chances. So and increase our survival chances. So and increase our survival chances. So again that might explain why I care again that might explain why I care again that might explain why I care about that kid um because the species about that kid um because the species about that kid um because the species that didn't that didn't that didn't >> Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. >> they would never have been able to band >> they would never have been able to band >> they would never have been able to band together and take on the elephant. together and take on the elephant. together and take on the elephant. >> Yes. I think it's largely our modern >> Yes. I think it's largely our modern >> Yes. I think it's largely our modern perspective living in a society where we perspective living in a society where we perspective living in a society where we are uh starting on second base already are uh starting on second base already are uh starting on second base already with our moral perspectives, right? We with our moral perspectives, right? We with our moral perspectives, right? We have inherited all of these moral have inherited all of these moral have inherited all of these moral categories because of our categories because of our categories because of our Judeo-Christian ethic. If you look at Judeo-Christian ethic. If you look at Judeo-Christian ethic. If you look at basically every society prior to this or basically every society prior to this or basically every society prior to this or even societies in the east, that's not a even societies in the east, that's not a even societies in the east, that's not a given, right? That's not an assumption. given, right? That's not an assumption. given, right? That's not an assumption. Especially in societies that have say uh Especially in societies that have say uh Especially in societies that have say uh understandings of karmic cycles whether understandings of karmic cycles whether understandings of karmic cycles whether that's in like Buddhism or Hinduism the that's in like Buddhism or Hinduism the that's in like Buddhism or Hinduism the idea of altruism is actually can be idea of altruism is actually can be idea of altruism is actually can be categorized as an evil because in the categorized as an evil because in the categorized as an evil because in the cycle of samsara of birth life death and cycle of samsara of birth life death and cycle of samsara of birth life death and rebirth you are actually the your lot in rebirth you are actually the your lot in rebirth you are actually the your lot in this life is due to your wrongdoing in this life is due to your wrongdoing in this life is due to your wrongdoing in the last life. So in helping someone the last life. So in helping someone the last life. So in helping someone like that you are actually inhibiting like that you are actually inhibiting like that you are actually inhibiting them from being reincarnated better on them from being reincarnated better on them from being reincarnated better on the other side. So an idea like altruism the other side. So an idea like altruism the other side. So an idea like altruism doesn't exist within that eastern doesn't exist within that eastern doesn't exist within that eastern society. And if you look in the ancient society. And if you look in the ancient society. And if you look in the ancient world, let's pick on the Babylonians. world, let's pick on the Babylonians. world, let's pick on the Babylonians. The Babylonians, if they were to read The Babylonians, if they were to read The Babylonians, if they were to read Dawkins' River out of Eden, would Dawkins' River out of Eden, would Dawkins' River out of Eden, would basically say, "Yeah, exactly." Right. basically say, "Yeah, exactly." Right. basically say, "Yeah, exactly." Right. So they have this creation story. It's So they have this creation story. It's So they have this creation story. It's called the Inumalish, and it's this big called the Inumalish, and it's this big called the Inumalish, and it's this big battle of the gods, and it's uh it's an battle of the gods, and it's uh it's an battle of the gods, and it's uh it's an origin story, an attempt to explain why origin story, an attempt to explain why origin story, an attempt to explain why everything is here. But the conclusion everything is here. But the conclusion everything is here. But the conclusion of it is basically you are a product of of it is basically you are a product of of it is basically you are a product of a big battle and a mistake, right? The a big battle and a mistake, right? The a big battle and a mistake, right? The one god loses and you, everything around one god loses and you, everything around one god loses and you, everything around you, the earth, the sky, it's just the you, the earth, the sky, it's just the you, the earth, the sky, it's just the remains of the gods that lost. So remains of the gods that lost. So remains of the gods that lost. So meaning, value, purpose, not really meaning, value, purpose, not really meaning, value, purpose, not really ultimately. You're just the product of ultimately. You're just the product of ultimately. You're just the product of time plus matter plus chance as well. time plus matter plus chance as well. time plus matter plus chance as well. It's just framed within a religious It's just framed within a religious It's just framed within a religious perspective. whereas Dawkins frames it perspective. whereas Dawkins frames it perspective. whereas Dawkins frames it in a natural materialistic perspective. in a natural materialistic perspective. in a natural materialistic perspective. So where do we get the categories So where do we get the categories So where do we get the categories to even say that we should be taking to even say that we should be taking to even say that we should be taking care of people in communities outside of care of people in communities outside of care of people in communities outside of our specific community our specific community our specific community because in some cultures they have the because in some cultures they have the because in some cultures they have the ethic of love thy neighbor but in others ethic of love thy neighbor but in others ethic of love thy neighbor but in others it's eat thy neighbor and so the it's eat thy neighbor and so the it's eat thy neighbor and so the question is which society do you want to question is which society do you want to question is which society do you want to pick? And you're saying that that came pick? And you're saying that that came pick? And you're saying that that came from Judeo-Christian values. from Judeo-Christian values. from Judeo-Christian values. >> Yes, >> Yes, >> Yes, >> I would agree. Yeah, I would agree that. >> I would agree. Yeah, I would agree that. >> I would agree. Yeah, I would agree that. I think I'm trying to understand if it's I think I'm trying to understand if it's I think I'm trying to understand if it's innate in us from a God what's good and innate in us from a God what's good and innate in us from a God what's good and evil or whether it's, you know, we we evil or whether it's, you know, we we evil or whether it's, you know, we we all subscribe to a culture that was, you all subscribe to a culture that was, you all subscribe to a culture that was, you know, the foundation of that was these know, the foundation of that was these know, the foundation of that was these Christian values and um yeah, which one Christian values and um yeah, which one Christian values and um yeah, which one is it? is it? is it? >> Yeah. Well, was I born with a good and >> Yeah. Well, was I born with a good and >> Yeah. Well, was I born with a good and evil or was 2,000 or 3,000 years ago evil or was 2,000 or 3,000 years ago evil or was 2,000 or 3,000 years ago when Jesus came to be and we had these when Jesus came to be and we had these when Jesus came to be and we had these books? Did that just influence them? books? Did that just influence them? books? Did that just influence them? >> Yeah. Well, I think ultimately there's >> Yeah. Well, I think ultimately there's >> Yeah. Well, I think ultimately there's an aspect of our conscience that's an aspect of our conscience that's an aspect of our conscience that's imprinted on us that we we understand imprinted on us that we we understand imprinted on us that we we understand ethics to some degree or another, but ethics to some degree or another, but ethics to some degree or another, but the framework to actually find the the framework to actually find the the framework to actually find the objectivity of that ethic is found in objectivity of that ethic is found in objectivity of that ethic is found in the revelation of specific revelation in the revelation of specific revelation in the revelation of specific revelation in scripture. scripture. scripture. >> Do you believe in evolution? >> Do you believe in evolution? >> Do you believe in evolution? >> I don't. >> I don't. >> I don't. >> You don't believe it's true? >> You don't believe it's true? >> You don't believe it's true? >> No. I am open to the fact that I don't >> No. I am open to the fact that I don't >> No. I am open to the fact that I don't think that a belief in evolution think that a belief in evolution think that a belief in evolution undermines Christianity in any way. undermines Christianity in any way. undermines Christianity in any way. However, I'm and prefacing this by However, I'm and prefacing this by However, I'm and prefacing this by saying I'm not a scientist. I'm an saying I'm not a scientist. I'm an saying I'm not a scientist. I'm an advocate for intelligent design and I advocate for intelligent design and I advocate for intelligent design and I would basically punt the complex would basically punt the complex would basically punt the complex conversations of evolutionary biology to conversations of evolutionary biology to conversations of evolutionary biology to individuals who are far more studied individuals who are far more studied individuals who are far more studied than me like Steven Meyer and Jonathan than me like Steven Meyer and Jonathan than me like Steven Meyer and Jonathan Mcclache and John Tours and Mcclache and John Tours and Mcclache and John Tours and Douglas Axe and those individuals who Douglas Axe and those individuals who Douglas Axe and those individuals who have studied it. At the exact same time have studied it. At the exact same time have studied it. At the exact same time though it also depends on what you mean though it also depends on what you mean though it also depends on what you mean by evolution, right? So like adaptation by evolution, right? So like adaptation by evolution, right? So like adaptation genetically is a thing genetically is a thing genetically is a thing >> I guess. So I'm saying do you believe >> I guess. So I'm saying do you believe >> I guess. So I'm saying do you believe that we evolved from very simple that we evolved from very simple that we evolved from very simple organisms to become a human that you see organisms to become a human that you see organisms to become a human that you see today? today? today? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> And the argument for that would be you >> And the argument for that would be you >> And the argument for that would be you know I share 98% of the same DNA as like know I share 98% of the same DNA as like know I share 98% of the same DNA as like a chimpanzeee and we have these fossil a chimpanzeee and we have these fossil a chimpanzeee and we have these fossil records which seem to show a progression records which seem to show a progression records which seem to show a progression over time. over time. over time. >> You don't believe that's true? >> You don't believe that's true? >> You don't believe that's true? >> No I don't. But at the exact same time, >> No I don't. But at the exact same time, >> No I don't. But at the exact same time, I think, you know, there are individuals I think, you know, there are individuals I think, you know, there are individuals within the Christian faith, intelligent within the Christian faith, intelligent within the Christian faith, intelligent people who do and have no problem with people who do and have no problem with people who do and have no problem with understanding of a theistic evolutionary understanding of a theistic evolutionary understanding of a theistic evolutionary model. However, I think in the effort of model. However, I think in the effort of model. However, I think in the effort of survival of the fittest, I still think survival of the fittest, I still think survival of the fittest, I still think that you're starting a few miles down that you're starting a few miles down that you're starting a few miles down the road in answering the question of the road in answering the question of the road in answering the question of the arrival of the fittest. How do minds the arrival of the fittest. How do minds the arrival of the fittest. How do minds come from mindless matter? How does come from mindless matter? How does come from mindless matter? How does everything come from nothing? How do how everything come from nothing? How do how everything come from nothing? How do how do we answer those questions? And I do we answer those questions? And I do we answer those questions? And I think that's why you can use the think that's why you can use the think that's why you can use the evolutionary model as an explanation of evolutionary model as an explanation of evolutionary model as an explanation of how God has actually created right the how God has actually created right the how God has actually created right the biology of the situation. But I think biology of the situation. But I think biology of the situation. But I think the bigger question is the cosmological the bigger question is the cosmological the bigger question is the cosmological questions. How did this all get going? questions. How did this all get going? questions. How did this all get going? You know, the big bang, what was the big You know, the big bang, what was the big You know, the big bang, what was the big banger? banger? banger? How did that first ball get rolling? And How did that first ball get rolling? And How did that first ball get rolling? And then why can you and I, Stephen, sit then why can you and I, Stephen, sit then why can you and I, Stephen, sit here and like I said before, have the here and like I said before, have the here and like I said before, have the three lbs of gray matter in my head kind three lbs of gray matter in my head kind three lbs of gray matter in my head kind of uh ruminate over these very complex of uh ruminate over these very complex of uh ruminate over these very complex questions. questions. questions. >> You know, I I think it was on the >> You know, I I think it was on the >> You know, I I think it was on the Galapicus Islands. I'm probably going to Galapicus Islands. I'm probably going to Galapicus Islands. I'm probably going to butcher this, but I'll I'll do my very butcher this, but I'll I'll do my very butcher this, but I'll I'll do my very best. They, you know, the sailors went best. They, you know, the sailors went best. They, you know, the sailors went to an island, they left a bird there, to an island, they left a bird there, to an island, they left a bird there, they came back 50 years later, the they came back 50 years later, the they came back 50 years later, the bird's beak had grown to be very, very bird's beak had grown to be very, very bird's beak had grown to be very, very long long long >> because the prey on that island that it >> because the prey on that island that it >> because the prey on that island that it was eating were in in hole. So, they was eating were in in hole. So, they was eating were in in hole. So, they needed longer beaks. So, it kind of needed longer beaks. So, it kind of needed longer beaks. So, it kind of shows us that if you leave an animal in shows us that if you leave an animal in shows us that if you leave an animal in an environment, it will adapt and it's, an environment, it will adapt and it's, an environment, it will adapt and it's, you know, it will select out the the you know, it will select out the the you know, it will select out the the short beak birds for the long beak short beak birds for the long beak short beak birds for the long beak birds. And just in that short period of birds. And just in that short period of birds. And just in that short period of time, you can see that it's like, you time, you can see that it's like, you time, you can see that it's like, you know, it's becoming a different type of know, it's becoming a different type of know, it's becoming a different type of animal. And if you extrapolate that out animal. And if you extrapolate that out animal. And if you extrapolate that out over a long long period of time, almost over a long long period of time, almost over a long long period of time, almost an inconceivable amount of time, you an inconceivable amount of time, you an inconceivable amount of time, you know, maybe hundreds of millions of know, maybe hundreds of millions of know, maybe hundreds of millions of years, years, years, >> one can understand why like me and a >> one can understand why like me and a >> one can understand why like me and a chimpanzeee, chimpanzeee, chimpanzeee, there are similarities in how we look. there are similarities in how we look. there are similarities in how we look. Um, and there are 99% similar like 98% Um, and there are 99% similar like 98% Um, and there are 99% similar like 98% similarities in my DNA and a chimp similarities in my DNA and a chimp similarities in my DNA and a chimp chimpanzeee's DNA. So, one would argue chimpanzeee's DNA. So, one would argue chimpanzeee's DNA. So, one would argue that we are we have a common ancestor. that we are we have a common ancestor. that we are we have a common ancestor. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, >> it's like very compelling evidence to >> it's like very compelling evidence to >> it's like very compelling evidence to me. me. me. >> Sure. I mean, it's the transitions going >> Sure. I mean, it's the transitions going >> Sure. I mean, it's the transitions going from as the chimpanzeee type thing, from as the chimpanzeee type thing, from as the chimpanzeee type thing, right? Because we're obviously not right? Because we're obviously not right? Because we're obviously not arguing that that we were a chimpanzeee, arguing that that we were a chimpanzeee, arguing that that we were a chimpanzeee, a chimpanzeee exist today, but that a chimpanzeee exist today, but that a chimpanzeee exist today, but that yeah, that homminid, whatever that yeah, that homminid, whatever that yeah, that homminid, whatever that homminid was, homminid was, homminid was, >> what is the transitionary >> what is the transitionary >> what is the transitionary fossil explanation whatever that goes fossil explanation whatever that goes fossil explanation whatever that goes from the monkey to the human being? And from the monkey to the human being? And from the monkey to the human being? And I don't really think we have an answer I don't really think we have an answer I don't really think we have an answer for that in terms of consciousness for that in terms of consciousness for that in terms of consciousness questions like why what makes our questions like why what makes our questions like why what makes our ability to reason and think and ability to reason and think and ability to reason and think and contemplate different than all of the contemplate different than all of the contemplate different than all of the other species in the animal kingdom. And other species in the animal kingdom. And other species in the animal kingdom. And how do we go if we're arguing that, you how do we go if we're arguing that, you how do we go if we're arguing that, you know, everything comes from know, everything comes from know, everything comes from single-sellled organisms? single-sellled organisms? single-sellled organisms? I guess you could have a if you want to I guess you could have a if you want to I guess you could have a if you want to call it a time of the gaps explanation, call it a time of the gaps explanation, call it a time of the gaps explanation, you know, just just add lots of millions you know, just just add lots of millions you know, just just add lots of millions of years and it solves this issue. I of years and it solves this issue. I of years and it solves this issue. I don't know if I am completely satisfied don't know if I am completely satisfied don't know if I am completely satisfied with that answer if cuz obviously with that answer if cuz obviously with that answer if cuz obviously there's adaptation but you know if there's adaptation but you know if there's adaptation but you know if you're looking at whether there's the you're looking at whether there's the you're looking at whether there's the dodo bird example or Darwin's finches dodo bird example or Darwin's finches dodo bird example or Darwin's finches right where the beaks are different um right where the beaks are different um right where the beaks are different um you're still getting beaked birds and you're still getting beaked birds and you're still getting beaked birds and we've never seen one species turn into a we've never seen one species turn into a we've never seen one species turn into a completely different species completely different species completely different species >> the thing that I filled the gap with is >> the thing that I filled the gap with is >> the thing that I filled the gap with is that it's just a matter of time so you that it's just a matter of time so you that it's just a matter of time so you know with the birds example it's like 50 know with the birds example it's like 50 know with the birds example it's like 50 years or something or decades years or something or decades years or something or decades But when we think about Earth being like But when we think about Earth being like But when we think about Earth being like 5 billion years old, 5 billion years old, 5 billion years old, >> I think it's almost inconceivable what >> I think it's almost inconceivable what >> I think it's almost inconceivable what can happen over such a long period of can happen over such a long period of can happen over such a long period of time like it's conceivable that if me time like it's conceivable that if me time like it's conceivable that if me and you went to different parts of and you went to different parts of and you went to different parts of planet Earth and lived in two completely planet Earth and lived in two completely planet Earth and lived in two completely different environments and then we came different environments and then we came different environments and then we came back 5 billion years later and there was back 5 billion years later and there was back 5 billion years later and there was no medicine and no factors helping us to no medicine and no factors helping us to no medicine and no factors helping us to survive that you know we would have survive that you know we would have survive that you know we would have branched gone in two different branched gone in two different branched gone in two different directions completely and you you know directions completely and you you know directions completely and you you know your ancestors who were living in the your ancestors who were living in the your ancestors who were living in the jungle might jungle might jungle might 9 foot and actually what was useful for 9 foot and actually what was useful for 9 foot and actually what was useful for survival where I lived in some cave was survival where I lived in some cave was survival where I lived in some cave was being 2t tall, being 2t tall, being 2t tall, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And then we wouldn't be able to >> And then we wouldn't be able to >> And then we wouldn't be able to reproduce which kind of makes us reproduce which kind of makes us reproduce which kind of makes us different species now. Like that's I different species now. Like that's I different species now. Like that's I mean that's sounds conceivable for me mean that's sounds conceivable for me mean that's sounds conceivable for me over four like 4.5 billion years. Seems over four like 4.5 billion years. Seems over four like 4.5 billion years. Seems conceivable that conceivable that conceivable that like we both agree on adaptation. like we both agree on adaptation. like we both agree on adaptation. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Like small adaptations. But then if you >> Like small adaptations. But then if you >> Like small adaptations. But then if you expand the time horizon, those small expand the time horizon, those small expand the time horizon, those small adaptations become massive. adaptations become massive. adaptations become massive. >> Yeah. I mean ultimately no matter which >> Yeah. I mean ultimately no matter which >> Yeah. I mean ultimately no matter which way you want to swing it, I think the way you want to swing it, I think the way you want to swing it, I think the adding millions of years as the adding millions of years as the adding millions of years as the explanation is a little bit too explanation is a little bit too explanation is a little bit too convenient. convenient. convenient. >> But I think at the end of the day, >> But I think at the end of the day, >> But I think at the end of the day, you're still looking at the complexity you're still looking at the complexity you're still looking at the complexity in nature that points to a design of in nature that points to a design of in nature that points to a design of something that is is amazing. something that is is amazing. something that is is amazing. And the the question of okay, how do we And the the question of okay, how do we And the the question of okay, how do we Dawkins is, you know, famous for saying Dawkins is, you know, famous for saying Dawkins is, you know, famous for saying that that it it has the illusion of that that it it has the illusion of that that it it has the illusion of design to it, right? There's not not design to it, right? There's not not design to it, right? There's not not actually a design to it. It's just the actually a design to it. It's just the actually a design to it. It's just the illusion of design. But I think, you illusion of design. But I think, you illusion of design. But I think, you know, if we actually look at when Darwin know, if we actually look at when Darwin know, if we actually look at when Darwin was writing, they thought the smaller was writing, they thought the smaller was writing, they thought the smaller you got, the simpler it got. And now we you got, the simpler it got. And now we you got, the simpler it got. And now we know that the smaller you get, in fact, know that the smaller you get, in fact, know that the smaller you get, in fact, the more complex you get. the more complex you get. the more complex you get. >> As in the more you zoom into the design, >> As in the more you zoom into the design, >> As in the more you zoom into the design, like the more you zoom into the brain or like the more you zoom into the brain or like the more you zoom into the brain or >> Yeah. Our understanding of science has >> Yeah. Our understanding of science has >> Yeah. Our understanding of science has grown exponentially even from Darwin's grown exponentially even from Darwin's grown exponentially even from Darwin's day. And there's an aspect of like day. And there's an aspect of like day. And there's an aspect of like Darwinian evolution that is is has moved Darwinian evolution that is is has moved Darwinian evolution that is is has moved on into what we would now call like on into what we would now call like on into what we would now call like neodyarwinian evolutionary theory. neodyarwinian evolutionary theory. neodyarwinian evolutionary theory. And you look at um individuals like I And you look at um individuals like I And you look at um individuals like I mentioned Steven Meyer before and he mentioned Steven Meyer before and he mentioned Steven Meyer before and he even uh has questioned some of these even uh has questioned some of these even uh has questioned some of these things about the explanations that are things about the explanations that are things about the explanations that are working as givens for evolutionary working as givens for evolutionary working as givens for evolutionary theory. I still don't think it gets us theory. I still don't think it gets us theory. I still don't think it gets us back to, okay, then why do we have back to, okay, then why do we have back to, okay, then why do we have purpose? purpose? purpose? >> I've had so many founders speak to me >> I've had so many founders speak to me >> I've had so many founders speak to me and say, why didn't this particular ad and say, why didn't this particular ad and say, why didn't this particular ad that I ran on this platform work for me? that I ran on this platform work for me? that I ran on this platform work for me? 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Every time I've tried to improve Every time I've tried to improve Every time I've tried to improve something in my life, like my something in my life, like my something in my life, like my businesses, my health, my relationships, businesses, my health, my relationships, businesses, my health, my relationships, I've noticed that the biggest shifts I've noticed that the biggest shifts I've noticed that the biggest shifts have come from being better informed. have come from being better informed. have come from being better informed. And when it comes to our health, most of And when it comes to our health, most of And when it comes to our health, most of us know very, very little. So when our us know very, very little. So when our us know very, very little. 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Go to functionhealth.com/doac functionhealth.com/doac functionhealth.com/doac and use the code DOAC25 and use the code DOAC25 and use the code DOAC25 for $25 off your membership. for $25 off your membership. for $25 off your membership. Where do you think we came from? Like, Where do you think we came from? Like, Where do you think we came from? Like, where do you think I came from or my where do you think I came from or my where do you think I came from or my ancestors came from? Do you think they ancestors came from? Do you think they ancestors came from? Do you think they were put on Earth as humans? Do you were put on Earth as humans? Do you were put on Earth as humans? Do you believe in the Adam and Eve story? Do believe in the Adam and Eve story? Do believe in the Adam and Eve story? Do you think there was some kind of you think there was some kind of you think there was some kind of evolution? And when did you think this evolution? And when did you think this evolution? And when did you think this when do you think this happened? when do you think this happened? when do you think this happened? >> So I know that the world is at least 35 >> So I know that the world is at least 35 >> So I know that the world is at least 35 years old. years old. years old. >> Uh I don't think it's an answer that the >> Uh I don't think it's an answer that the >> Uh I don't think it's an answer that the Bible is actually attempting to address Bible is actually attempting to address Bible is actually attempting to address in terms of the age of the earth. in terms of the age of the earth. in terms of the age of the earth. >> Billions of years old. I don't see any >> Billions of years old. I don't see any >> Billions of years old. I don't see any reason not to because I don't think that reason not to because I don't think that reason not to because I don't think that the creation story in Genesis chapter 1 the creation story in Genesis chapter 1 the creation story in Genesis chapter 1 is necessarily is necessarily is necessarily an attempt to reveal the mechanisms of an attempt to reveal the mechanisms of an attempt to reveal the mechanisms of how God did that exactly how God did that exactly how God did that exactly >> cuz the sort of scientific consensus >> cuz the sort of scientific consensus >> cuz the sort of scientific consensus says that it's roughly 4.5 billion years says that it's roughly 4.5 billion years says that it's roughly 4.5 billion years old the earth. old the earth. old the earth. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And microbes and single cellled >> And microbes and single cellled >> And microbes and single cellled organisms are estimated to have appeared organisms are estimated to have appeared organisms are estimated to have appeared 3.5 to 4 billion years ago almost as 3.5 to 4 billion years ago almost as 3.5 to 4 billion years ago almost as soon as Earth. Cold enough to have soon as Earth. Cold enough to have soon as Earth. Cold enough to have liquid water. liquid water. liquid water. >> Sure. Yeah. And and I'm I'm fine with >> Sure. Yeah. And and I'm I'm fine with >> Sure. Yeah. And and I'm I'm fine with that actually. I don't I don't think I that actually. I don't I don't think I that actually. I don't I don't think I have to adhere to neo neodyarwinian have to adhere to neo neodyarwinian have to adhere to neo neodyarwinian evolution in order to actually believe evolution in order to actually believe evolution in order to actually believe that the world is old. I think I would that the world is old. I think I would that the world is old. I think I would adhere to an intelligent design thesis. adhere to an intelligent design thesis. adhere to an intelligent design thesis. But But But >> what does that mean? >> what does that mean? >> what does that mean? >> So essentially that the the world around >> So essentially that the the world around >> So essentially that the the world around us is intelligently designed. Not us is intelligently designed. Not us is intelligently designed. Not necessarily in that it it came through necessarily in that it it came through necessarily in that it it came through processes of evolution. Once again, I'm processes of evolution. Once again, I'm processes of evolution. Once again, I'm not a scientist, right? I'm a historian. not a scientist, right? I'm a historian. not a scientist, right? I'm a historian. I I genuinely do believe that there was I I genuinely do believe that there was I I genuinely do believe that there was a historical Adam and Eve and that those a historical Adam and Eve and that those a historical Adam and Eve and that those were the first people. were the first people. were the first people. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Now, what did they look like? I don't >> Now, what did they look like? I don't >> Now, what did they look like? I don't know. I think they they probably lived a know. I think they they probably lived a know. I think they they probably lived a long long time ago. And I don't know if long long time ago. And I don't know if long long time ago. And I don't know if the breakdown of Genesis chapter 1 and the breakdown of Genesis chapter 1 and the breakdown of Genesis chapter 1 and the like seven days of creation are the like seven days of creation are the like seven days of creation are actually attempting to articulate seven actually attempting to articulate seven actually attempting to articulate seven 24-hour days. They could be. 24-hour days. They could be. 24-hour days. They could be. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I just don't think that's the point. But >> I just don't think that's the point. But >> I just don't think that's the point. But you do believe that humans were put here you do believe that humans were put here you do believe that humans were put here as humans as humans as humans >> and you believe that the other animals >> and you believe that the other animals >> and you believe that the other animals were put here in their in some kind of were put here in their in some kind of were put here in their in some kind of early form. early form. early form. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And then you also believe in adaptation >> And then you also believe in adaptation >> And then you also believe in adaptation of those species. Fine. Okay. Fine. of those species. Fine. Okay. Fine. of those species. Fine. Okay. Fine. >> And going back to like talking about >> And going back to like talking about >> And going back to like talking about trying to explain these things trying to explain these things trying to explain these things scientifically. I always find like we scientifically. I always find like we scientifically. I always find like we can explore the answers scientifically, can explore the answers scientifically, can explore the answers scientifically, but that's only going to get us so far, but that's only going to get us so far, but that's only going to get us so far, especially when we're discussing meaning especially when we're discussing meaning especially when we're discussing meaning and purpose questions. So, let me give and purpose questions. So, let me give and purpose questions. So, let me give you uh a little bit of a story that a you uh a little bit of a story that a you uh a little bit of a story that a friend of mine, Glenn Scrier, uh likes friend of mine, Glenn Scrier, uh likes friend of mine, Glenn Scrier, uh likes to articulate in uh this parable that he to articulate in uh this parable that he to articulate in uh this parable that he tells that he calls Betty the botist. tells that he calls Betty the botist. tells that he calls Betty the botist. So, you have Betty the botist and she's So, you have Betty the botist and she's So, you have Betty the botist and she's been uh looking at a plant sample in her been uh looking at a plant sample in her been uh looking at a plant sample in her lab. She's been spending all weekend lab. She's been spending all weekend lab. She's been spending all weekend looking at this plant sample. She's been looking at this plant sample. She's been looking at this plant sample. She's been uh you know, investigating it and doing uh you know, investigating it and doing uh you know, investigating it and doing all of these tests on it all weekend. all of these tests on it all weekend. all of these tests on it all weekend. And Jerry, the lab assistant, comes in And Jerry, the lab assistant, comes in And Jerry, the lab assistant, comes in on Monday. And on Monday. And on Monday. And Betty looks at Jerry and says, "Jerry, Betty looks at Jerry and says, "Jerry, Betty looks at Jerry and says, "Jerry, thank you for the botanic botanical thank you for the botanic botanical thank you for the botanic botanical specimen that you left me on the specimen that you left me on the specimen that you left me on the weekend. Thank you for this botanical weekend. Thank you for this botanical weekend. Thank you for this botanical specimen. I've been doing all of these specimen. I've been doing all of these specimen. I've been doing all of these tests. I've been looking at the tests. I've been looking at the tests. I've been looking at the components of it and the complexity of components of it and the complexity of components of it and the complexity of the biology and there are the biology and there are the biology and there are pharmacological implications that I've pharmacological implications that I've pharmacological implications that I've extrapolated from its various biological extrapolated from its various biological extrapolated from its various biological components and we can use these to cure components and we can use these to cure components and we can use these to cure diseases. There's so many things. Thank diseases. There's so many things. Thank diseases. There's so many things. Thank you so much for the botanical specimen. you so much for the botanical specimen. you so much for the botanical specimen. And Jerry says, And Jerry says, And Jerry says, "Betty, "Betty, "Betty, it was February 14th on the weekend. it was February 14th on the weekend. it was February 14th on the weekend. That was a long stem rose. That was a long stem rose. That was a long stem rose. >> Do you know what I left for you? Do you >> Do you know what I left for you? Do you >> Do you know what I left for you? Do you know what the implication of the know what the implication of the know what the implication of the botanical specimen, as you're calling botanical specimen, as you're calling botanical specimen, as you're calling it, was for what I was trying to it, was for what I was trying to it, was for what I was trying to communicate to you?" Now, did Betty the communicate to you?" Now, did Betty the communicate to you?" Now, did Betty the Botnist understand the long stem rose? Botnist understand the long stem rose? Botnist understand the long stem rose? In one way, she understood it more than In one way, she understood it more than In one way, she understood it more than most because she had done all of the most because she had done all of the most because she had done all of the tests and run through all of the tests and run through all of the tests and run through all of the different ways that she could different ways that she could different ways that she could extrapolate what that thing was. extrapolate what that thing was. extrapolate what that thing was. But what Jerry was trying to actually But what Jerry was trying to actually But what Jerry was trying to actually illustrate was something that went illustrate was something that went illustrate was something that went beyond that. It was a love gift. He was beyond that. It was a love gift. He was beyond that. It was a love gift. He was trying to communicate something that trying to communicate something that trying to communicate something that went beyond the simple biology. and and went beyond the simple biology. and and went beyond the simple biology. and and Betty could very simply say, "Well, I Betty could very simply say, "Well, I Betty could very simply say, "Well, I couldn't get that from the data. I I couldn't get that from the data. I I couldn't get that from the data. I I couldn't have extrapolated the couldn't have extrapolated the couldn't have extrapolated the implications of it being a love gift." implications of it being a love gift." implications of it being a love gift." And in that so far as it being a And in that so far as it being a And in that so far as it being a parable, we can look at all of the parable, we can look at all of the parable, we can look at all of the scientific explanations, but there's scientific explanations, but there's scientific explanations, but there's something that goes beyond the simple something that goes beyond the simple something that goes beyond the simple data in terms of meaning and purpose and data in terms of meaning and purpose and data in terms of meaning and purpose and desire, desire, desire, identity questions that go far beyond identity questions that go far beyond identity questions that go far beyond that, right? Like we can look, I could that, right? Like we can look, I could that, right? Like we can look, I could tell you the different chemical tell you the different chemical tell you the different chemical components that make up the page and the components that make up the page and the components that make up the page and the ink and like the size of the paper and ink and like the size of the paper and ink and like the size of the paper and it transparency and all of that. I could it transparency and all of that. I could it transparency and all of that. I could say, you know, Stephen, what is this? say, you know, Stephen, what is this? say, you know, Stephen, what is this? And you could go into all of this And you could go into all of this And you could go into all of this explanation about how paper is made and explanation about how paper is made and explanation about how paper is made and the pulp and how we extrapolated and the pulp and how we extrapolated and the pulp and how we extrapolated and eventually put it together and the eventually put it together and the eventually put it together and the binding and and I could say, okay, yeah, binding and and I could say, okay, yeah, binding and and I could say, okay, yeah, but this is a Bible. This is meant to but this is a Bible. This is meant to but this is a Bible. This is meant to communicate something to you. you know, communicate something to you. you know, communicate something to you. you know, what is the explanation for this? One what is the explanation for this? One what is the explanation for this? One explanation could be the chemical and explanation could be the chemical and explanation could be the chemical and and you know, scientific components that and you know, scientific components that and you know, scientific components that make up the Bible. Another explanation make up the Bible. Another explanation make up the Bible. Another explanation could be this is a religious text that's could be this is a religious text that's could be this is a religious text that's actually trying to communicate something actually trying to communicate something actually trying to communicate something to you. And so I think in the scientific to you. And so I think in the scientific to you. And so I think in the scientific data, data, data, all of that is obviously important, all of that is obviously important, all of that is obviously important, right? Like there's this great quote by right? Like there's this great quote by right? Like there's this great quote by C. Lewis where he says that men were C. Lewis where he says that men were C. Lewis where he says that men were scientific because they expected laws in scientific because they expected laws in scientific because they expected laws in nature and so they looked for the nature and so they looked for the nature and so they looked for the legislator legislator legislator and you look you read individuals like and you look you read individuals like and you look you read individuals like Francis Bacon who came up with the the Francis Bacon who came up with the the Francis Bacon who came up with the the scientific method and they're inherently scientific method and they're inherently scientific method and they're inherently religious right they almost articulate religious right they almost articulate religious right they almost articulate what they're doing in their scientific what they're doing in their scientific what they're doing in their scientific endeavor as an act of worship because if endeavor as an act of worship because if endeavor as an act of worship because if the exploration of the creative world the exploration of the creative world the exploration of the creative world points to a creator then that can be an points to a creator then that can be an points to a creator then that can be an act of understanding who and why we're act of understanding who and why we're act of understanding who and why we're here. In terms of the scientific here. In terms of the scientific here. In terms of the scientific questions, I'm very interested in them, questions, I'm very interested in them, questions, I'm very interested in them, especially as a non-scientist. They especially as a non-scientist. They especially as a non-scientist. They fascinate me. But in terms of the fascinate me. But in terms of the fascinate me. But in terms of the meaning questions, meaning questions, meaning questions, I think I would air on the side of I think I would air on the side of I think I would air on the side of caution of attempting to be Betty the caution of attempting to be Betty the caution of attempting to be Betty the botist and sometimes I read individuals botist and sometimes I read individuals botist and sometimes I read individuals like Dawkins and I'm I'm hearing Betty like Dawkins and I'm I'm hearing Betty like Dawkins and I'm I'm hearing Betty the Botnist extrapolate and define the the Botnist extrapolate and define the the Botnist extrapolate and define the botanical specimen. I think part of the botanical specimen. I think part of the botanical specimen. I think part of the reason why the new atheist movement that reason why the new atheist movement that reason why the new atheist movement that I again was captured by was not I again was captured by was not I again was captured by was not sufficient is because as you say it sufficient is because as you say it sufficient is because as you say it didn't didn't didn't it didn't fill some kind of gap it didn't fill some kind of gap it didn't fill some kind of gap >> and and much of the gap I think for a >> and and much of the gap I think for a >> and and much of the gap I think for a lot of people is okay so if if I believe lot of people is okay so if if I believe lot of people is okay so if if I believe in the science and and that argument and in the science and and that argument and in the science and and that argument and the atheist argument or I believe in the the atheist argument or I believe in the the atheist argument or I believe in the Bible I still need a an answer to like Bible I still need a an answer to like Bible I still need a an answer to like yeah but so what like what's the point yeah but so what like what's the point yeah but so what like what's the point of this even in the example of evolution of this even in the example of evolution of this even in the example of evolution I yeah but why am I evolving I yeah but why am I evolving I yeah but why am I evolving Why? Why am I trying to survive? Why? Why am I trying to survive? Why? Why am I trying to survive? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> A means to what end? Okay, I'm trying to >> A means to what end? Okay, I'm trying to >> A means to what end? Okay, I'm trying to have more kids, but then why are my kids have more kids, but then why are my kids have more kids, but then why are my kids trying to have more kids? What's the trying to have more kids? What's the trying to have more kids? What's the point? point? point? >> And you just keep hitting this wall of >> And you just keep hitting this wall of >> And you just keep hitting this wall of like, okay, but what's the point? What's like, okay, but what's the point? What's like, okay, but what's the point? What's the point? Am I meant to do something? the point? Am I meant to do something? the point? Am I meant to do something? Is it is there a mission for me? Is it is there a mission for me? Is it is there a mission for me? >> Right? >> Right? >> Right? >> And I think that question is one that I >> And I think that question is one that I >> And I think that question is one that I think about uh sometimes, which is think about uh sometimes, which is think about uh sometimes, which is >> no matter what I believe, like what is >> no matter what I believe, like what is >> no matter what I believe, like what is the point? And I think that's why the the point? And I think that's why the the point? And I think that's why the Bible is such an amazing explanation for Bible is such an amazing explanation for Bible is such an amazing explanation for that. Because in a world that tells you that. Because in a world that tells you that. Because in a world that tells you ultimately that you're a product of time ultimately that you're a product of time ultimately that you're a product of time plus matters chance, the Bible looks at plus matters chance, the Bible looks at plus matters chance, the Bible looks at you, Stephen, and says you're created you, Stephen, and says you're created you, Stephen, and says you're created with meaning and purpose and intention. with meaning and purpose and intention. with meaning and purpose and intention. You bear the image of God. You bear the image of God. You bear the image of God. So there's something that is actually So there's something that is actually So there's something that is actually screaming from your biology screaming from your biology screaming from your biology about who you are that goes beyond the about who you are that goes beyond the about who you are that goes beyond the fact that you're not just a physical fact that you're not just a physical fact that you're not just a physical specimen sitting in front of me. Right? specimen sitting in front of me. Right? specimen sitting in front of me. Right? You have a mind and that mind is maybe You have a mind and that mind is maybe You have a mind and that mind is maybe your brain or we're not even sure about your brain or we're not even sure about your brain or we're not even sure about that. Right? that. Right? that. Right? >> So what makes Steven Steven? You're not >> So what makes Steven Steven? You're not >> So what makes Steven Steven? You're not not your body. And that's why I mean not your body. And that's why I mean not your body. And that's why I mean there's this inherent conversation there's this inherent conversation there's this inherent conversation within Christianity about the fact that within Christianity about the fact that within Christianity about the fact that our hope is not a spiritual one. The end our hope is not a spiritual one. The end our hope is not a spiritual one. The end result is the resurrection, right? The result is the resurrection, right? The result is the resurrection, right? The reason why Jesus rose from the dead is reason why Jesus rose from the dead is reason why Jesus rose from the dead is scripture calls him the first fruit. So scripture calls him the first fruit. So scripture calls him the first fruit. So we're all going to be resurrected. we're all going to be resurrected. we're all going to be resurrected. There's going to be a new heaven and a There's going to be a new heaven and a There's going to be a new heaven and a new earth. And that's the promise of new earth. And that's the promise of new earth. And that's the promise of Christianity, is it? Christianity, is it? Christianity, is it? >> So, so that's the point. >> So, so that's the point. >> So, so that's the point. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> The point of this life according to the >> The point of this life according to the >> The point of this life according to the Bible is that I get to go to this place Bible is that I get to go to this place Bible is that I get to go to this place called heaven. called heaven. called heaven. >> No. So it's a both and. So when g when >> No. So it's a both and. So when g when >> No. So it's a both and. So when g when Jesus's disciples ask him how to pray, Jesus's disciples ask him how to pray, Jesus's disciples ask him how to pray, he says, you know, he gives them the he says, you know, he gives them the he says, you know, he gives them the Lord's prayer. Our father, who art in Lord's prayer. Our father, who art in Lord's prayer. Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth kingdom come, thy will be done on earth kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. So it's not just as it is in heaven. So it's not just as it is in heaven. So it's not just about, you know, I'm going to die and my about, you know, I'm going to die and my about, you know, I'm going to die and my spirit's going to go to somewhere else. spirit's going to go to somewhere else. spirit's going to go to somewhere else. And you know, that's the whole goal. And you know, that's the whole goal. And you know, that's the whole goal. It's to bring heaven here as well. What It's to bring heaven here as well. What It's to bring heaven here as well. What we do matters because you're a human we do matters because you're a human we do matters because you're a human being. You're not a human doing. And so being. You're not a human doing. And so being. You're not a human doing. And so what you do here and who you are here what you do here and who you are here what you do here and who you are here actually has an implication actually has an implication actually has an implication >> to to who and what >> to to who and what >> to to who and what >> to everything. So we're put here to be >> to everything. So we're put here to be >> to everything. So we're put here to be stewards of creation of each other to be stewards of creation of each other to be stewards of creation of each other to be examples of imagebearers of God. Like examples of imagebearers of God. Like examples of imagebearers of God. Like your life has intrinsic meaning. your life has intrinsic meaning. your life has intrinsic meaning. >> Internal meaning. Yeah. >> Internal meaning. Yeah. >> Internal meaning. Yeah. >> Internal meaning more than just what you >> Internal meaning more than just what you >> Internal meaning more than just what you can contribute. Right. Right. So that can contribute. Right. Right. So that can contribute. Right. Right. So that would be exttrinsic your ability to give would be exttrinsic your ability to give would be exttrinsic your ability to give back to society your ability to uh back to society your ability to uh back to society your ability to uh contribute to the advancement of contribute to the advancement of contribute to the advancement of scientific technological you know fill scientific technological you know fill scientific technological you know fill in the gap you have value that goes in the gap you have value that goes in the gap you have value that goes beyond that right this is why we fight beyond that right this is why we fight beyond that right this is why we fight for people everywhere for people everywhere for people everywhere and that's I think why injustice and that's I think why injustice and that's I think why injustice something like injustice bothers us so something like injustice bothers us so something like injustice bothers us so much and why evil bothers us so much. much and why evil bothers us so much. much and why evil bothers us so much. >> You know the chimpanzeee that has like >> You know the chimpanzeee that has like >> You know the chimpanzeee that has like 98% the same DNA as me. Yeah. 98% the same DNA as me. Yeah. 98% the same DNA as me. Yeah. >> Do they have the same intrinsic meaning? >> Do they have the same intrinsic meaning? >> Do they have the same intrinsic meaning? You know, even my dog, I'm like, does my You know, even my dog, I'm like, does my You know, even my dog, I'm like, does my dog have that same intrinsic meaning? dog have that same intrinsic meaning? dog have that same intrinsic meaning? And is my dog going to go to heaven? And is my dog going to go to heaven? And is my dog going to go to heaven? >> I think scripture tells us what we need >> I think scripture tells us what we need >> I think scripture tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to to know, not always what we want to to know, not always what we want to know. There have been individuals know. There have been individuals know. There have been individuals throughout church history who have throughout church history who have throughout church history who have articulated that. I mean, St. Francis of articulated that. I mean, St. Francis of articulated that. I mean, St. Francis of Aisi was big on animals going to heaven. Aisi was big on animals going to heaven. Aisi was big on animals going to heaven. Uh C. Lewis was big on animals going to Uh C. Lewis was big on animals going to Uh C. Lewis was big on animals going to heaven. Um, in fact, when he wrote the heaven. Um, in fact, when he wrote the heaven. Um, in fact, when he wrote the last battle, you know, the last series last battle, you know, the last series last battle, you know, the last series in his line, the witch in the wardrobe in his line, the witch in the wardrobe in his line, the witch in the wardrobe books, uh, there are animals in heaven. books, uh, there are animals in heaven. books, uh, there are animals in heaven. I mean, if there's a new Earth, I think I mean, if there's a new Earth, I think I mean, if there's a new Earth, I think there are going to be animals. I don't there are going to be animals. I don't there are going to be animals. I don't know if they're going to be the same know if they're going to be the same know if they're going to be the same animals that existed on this side, but I animals that existed on this side, but I animals that existed on this side, but I also I have no idea. But I think there's also I have no idea. But I think there's also I have no idea. But I think there's something different because I think you something different because I think you something different because I think you have a soul. have a soul. have a soul. >> And you think my dog doesn't have a >> And you think my dog doesn't have a >> And you think my dog doesn't have a soul? soul? soul? >> I don't know. But I don't think he has >> I don't know. But I don't think he has >> I don't know. But I don't think he has the same kind of the same kind of the same kind of spiritual component that you are endowed spiritual component that you are endowed spiritual component that you are endowed with in the same way. with in the same way. with in the same way. >> How do we know? Like, how do we how do I >> How do we know? Like, how do we how do I >> How do we know? Like, how do we how do I know that? You know, these chimpanzees, know that? You know, these chimpanzees, know that? You know, these chimpanzees, they're pretty smart. I was watching one they're pretty smart. I was watching one they're pretty smart. I was watching one touch a touchcreen the other day and touch a touchcreen the other day and touch a touchcreen the other day and solving problems and I was thinking is solving problems and I was thinking is solving problems and I was thinking is it is there not like an element of I it is there not like an element of I it is there not like an element of I don't know human arrogance to think that don't know human arrogance to think that don't know human arrogance to think that these other creatures like the big the these other creatures like the big the these other creatures like the big the whales they're so unbelievably smart whales they're so unbelievably smart whales they're so unbelievably smart they don't have a soul they work they don't have a soul they work they don't have a soul they work together in packs they love they have together in packs they love they have together in packs they love they have kids they seem to pursue things yeah I kids they seem to pursue things yeah I kids they seem to pursue things yeah I mean I think that's a testimony to kind mean I think that's a testimony to kind mean I think that's a testimony to kind of the general reflection of God's good of the general reflection of God's good of the general reflection of God's good creation at the same time we describe creation at the same time we describe creation at the same time we describe when you're just repeating something we when you're just repeating something we when you're just repeating something we we use adjectives like aping we use adjectives like aping we use adjectives like aping We understand that there's an aspect of We understand that there's an aspect of We understand that there's an aspect of like if you train the monkey to push the like if you train the monkey to push the like if you train the monkey to push the button, it's going to push the button. button, it's going to push the button. button, it's going to push the button. If you give the elephant the paintbrush If you give the elephant the paintbrush If you give the elephant the paintbrush and kind of, you know, convince it to and kind of, you know, convince it to and kind of, you know, convince it to paint itself, it's going to paint paint itself, it's going to paint paint itself, it's going to paint itself. But if you if you can train the itself. But if you if you can train the itself. But if you if you can train the elephant to paint the Mona Lisa, is it elephant to paint the Mona Lisa, is it elephant to paint the Mona Lisa, is it really going to understand what it's really going to understand what it's really going to understand what it's painted in the same way that painted in the same way that painted in the same way that Michelangelo understands it? Sorry, Da Michelangelo understands it? Sorry, Da Michelangelo understands it? Sorry, Da Vinci, who painted the Mona Lisa. Now Vinci, who painted the Mona Lisa. Now Vinci, who painted the Mona Lisa. Now I'm getting myself into trouble. Whoever I'm getting myself into trouble. Whoever I'm getting myself into trouble. Whoever painted the Mona Lisa, Da Vinci, there's painted the Mona Lisa, Da Vinci, there's painted the Mona Lisa, Da Vinci, there's something about the value and what is something about the value and what is something about the value and what is being put in there that is different. being put in there that is different. being put in there that is different. >> So do you believe that me and you are >> So do you believe that me and you are >> So do you believe that me and you are born with a particular mission and born with a particular mission and born with a particular mission and meaning on this planet or do you think meaning on this planet or do you think meaning on this planet or do you think we have to go and find that particular we have to go and find that particular we have to go and find that particular meaning or mission? meaning or mission? meaning or mission? >> That's a great question. Uh I think >> That's a great question. Uh I think >> That's a great question. Uh I think the chief end of man is to know God the chief end of man is to know God the chief end of man is to know God and glorify him in so far as Jesus is and glorify him in so far as Jesus is and glorify him in so far as Jesus is asked what is the greatest commandment asked what is the greatest commandment asked what is the greatest commandment in the law. And Jesus uses two examples. in the law. And Jesus uses two examples. in the law. And Jesus uses two examples. He quotes from you know two different He quotes from you know two different He quotes from you know two different passages in the Old Testament and he passages in the Old Testament and he passages in the Old Testament and he says love the Lord your God with all of says love the Lord your God with all of says love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength and your heart, soul, mind and strength and your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. I mean love your neighbor as yourself. I mean love your neighbor as yourself. I mean ultimately I think we always want some ultimately I think we always want some ultimately I think we always want some sort of a grandiose sort of a grandiose sort of a grandiose purpose and we want the calling of like purpose and we want the calling of like purpose and we want the calling of like Moses. We want to go out in the bush or Moses. We want to go out in the bush or Moses. We want to go out in the bush or we want to go out in the desert and find we want to go out in the desert and find we want to go out in the desert and find a burning bush and have that calling on a burning bush and have that calling on a burning bush and have that calling on our lives. our lives. our lives. I don't think that's wrong. But I think I don't think that's wrong. But I think I don't think that's wrong. But I think ultimately our purpose is to live a ultimately our purpose is to live a ultimately our purpose is to live a faithful life to who we were created to faithful life to who we were created to faithful life to who we were created to be in being image bearsers of God and be in being image bearsers of God and be in being image bearsers of God and being faithful in loving God with being faithful in loving God with being faithful in loving God with everything that we have. So that like everything that we have. So that like everything that we have. So that like the Jewish phraseiology of loving God the Jewish phraseiology of loving God the Jewish phraseiology of loving God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and with all of our heart, soul, mind, and with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength. It's kind of a standin for strength. It's kind of a standin for strength. It's kind of a standin for your entire being with everything you your entire being with everything you your entire being with everything you have. Love God with that by what you do, have. Love God with that by what you do, have. Love God with that by what you do, by what you say, by how you live. Like by what you say, by how you live. Like by what you say, by how you live. Like do unto others as you would have them do do unto others as you would have them do do unto others as you would have them do unto you, right? That's the golden rule. unto you, right? That's the golden rule. unto you, right? That's the golden rule. But if you look at other religions, it's But if you look at other religions, it's But if you look at other religions, it's almost always framed in the negative. almost always framed in the negative. almost always framed in the negative. Don't do unto others what you don't want Don't do unto others what you don't want Don't do unto others what you don't want done to you. So there's a difference done to you. So there's a difference done to you. So there's a difference between not punching someone in the face between not punching someone in the face between not punching someone in the face and building someone a hospital. So the and building someone a hospital. So the and building someone a hospital. So the meaning of our lives is to love our meaning of our lives is to love our meaning of our lives is to love our creator at the most fundamental level creator at the most fundamental level creator at the most fundamental level >> at the basic level and to understand how >> at the basic level and to understand how >> at the basic level and to understand how that expresses in everyday life. So that expresses in everyday life. So that expresses in everyday life. So Martin Luther, the German Protestant Martin Luther, the German Protestant Martin Luther, the German Protestant reformer, he said the the faithful reformer, he said the the faithful reformer, he said the the faithful Christian um shoemaker Christian um shoemaker Christian um shoemaker doesn't glorify God by sewing little doesn't glorify God by sewing little doesn't glorify God by sewing little crosses into the shoes, but by making crosses into the shoes, but by making crosses into the shoes, but by making really good quality shoes. And so really good quality shoes. And so really good quality shoes. And so there's an aspect of God has endowed us, there's an aspect of God has endowed us, there's an aspect of God has endowed us, right? We're created in God's image. We right? We're created in God's image. We right? We're created in God's image. We create as an aspect of an outpouring of create as an aspect of an outpouring of create as an aspect of an outpouring of that which we are created to be. And we that which we are created to be. And we that which we are created to be. And we we do that well. You know, the proverb we do that well. You know, the proverb we do that well. You know, the proverb says, "Whatever your hand um finds to says, "Whatever your hand um finds to says, "Whatever your hand um finds to do, do it with all its might." And the do, do it with all its might." And the do, do it with all its might." And the idea is, you know, you have the idea is, you know, you have the idea is, you know, you have the capability to do incredible things. And capability to do incredible things. And capability to do incredible things. And the reason why you have that capability the reason why you have that capability the reason why you have that capability is because you bear the image of a is because you bear the image of a is because you bear the image of a creator who like I said before lives in creator who like I said before lives in creator who like I said before lives in a set of living loving relationships. a set of living loving relationships. a set of living loving relationships. And so that God actually didn't need to And so that God actually didn't need to And so that God actually didn't need to create you me anything. Right? So God is create you me anything. Right? So God is create you me anything. Right? So God is not better off or worse off if we love not better off or worse off if we love not better off or worse off if we love him or worship him or believe in him. He him or worship him or believe in him. He him or worship him or believe in him. He he really isn't. He has existed in a in he really isn't. He has existed in a in he really isn't. He has existed in a in love in relationship. love in relationship. love in relationship. And yet the story of the Bible is that And yet the story of the Bible is that And yet the story of the Bible is that God chooses to create out of an God chooses to create out of an God chooses to create out of an outpouring of his love knowing even that outpouring of his love knowing even that outpouring of his love knowing even that we are going to rebel against him. We we are going to rebel against him. We we are going to rebel against him. We are going to sin right do wrong against are going to sin right do wrong against are going to sin right do wrong against how he has actually created us to be and how he has actually created us to be and how he has actually created us to be and still desires to have that relationship. still desires to have that relationship. still desires to have that relationship. >> And if we do sin >> And if we do sin >> And if we do sin >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> if I sin in my life do I go to hell? You >> if I sin in my life do I go to hell? You >> if I sin in my life do I go to hell? You you don't you don't you don't I mean the answer to that is yes and no. I mean the answer to that is yes and no. I mean the answer to that is yes and no. But the But the But the >> am I going to hell? >> am I going to hell? >> am I going to hell? >> Are you going to hell? Steven Bartlett. >> Are you going to hell? Steven Bartlett. >> Are you going to hell? Steven Bartlett. Is Steven Bartlett going to hell? This Is Steven Bartlett going to hell? This Is Steven Bartlett going to hell? This is the clip that they're going to put is the clip that they're going to put is the clip that they're going to put online, right? Wes says Stephen Bartlett online, right? Wes says Stephen Bartlett online, right? Wes says Stephen Bartlett is going to hell. I mean, here's the is going to hell. I mean, here's the is going to hell. I mean, here's the thing. Everybody is going to hell. thing. Everybody is going to hell. thing. Everybody is going to hell. Everybody. Here's how I've said it in Everybody. Here's how I've said it in Everybody. Here's how I've said it in the past, right? The Bible is very the past, right? The Bible is very the past, right? The Bible is very clear. All good people go to heaven. But clear. All good people go to heaven. But clear. All good people go to heaven. But Jesus said, "No one is good but God Jesus said, "No one is good but God Jesus said, "No one is good but God alone." So if all good people go to alone." So if all good people go to alone." So if all good people go to heaven heaven heaven and no one is good but God alone, only and no one is good but God alone, only and no one is good but God alone, only God is in heaven. God is in heaven. God is in heaven. >> So do you believe that there is a a hell >> So do you believe that there is a a hell >> So do you believe that there is a a hell and a heaven as we sort of typically and a heaven as we sort of typically and a heaven as we sort of typically understand it? A place that is great to understand it? A place that is great to understand it? A place that is great to go to after we die and a place that is go to after we die and a place that is go to after we die and a place that is very hot. very hot. very hot. >> Place that is very hot. I mean there's a >> Place that is very hot. I mean there's a >> Place that is very hot. I mean there's a lot of imagery of um like fire and lot of imagery of um like fire and lot of imagery of um like fire and weeping and nashing of teeth. I think a weeping and nashing of teeth. I think a weeping and nashing of teeth. I think a lot of that uh is kind of reflective and lot of that uh is kind of reflective and lot of that uh is kind of reflective and allegorical more than it's like a a allegorical more than it's like a a allegorical more than it's like a a physical tangible thing that is you know physical tangible thing that is you know physical tangible thing that is you know most of our perceptions of hell are most of our perceptions of hell are most of our perceptions of hell are largely shaped by depictions in the largely shaped by depictions in the largely shaped by depictions in the Middle Ages of Dante's Inferno and that Middle Ages of Dante's Inferno and that Middle Ages of Dante's Inferno and that kind of thing right I think it's more so kind of thing right I think it's more so kind of thing right I think it's more so that that that you will experience the full weight of you will experience the full weight of you will experience the full weight of the separation from God's goodness not the separation from God's goodness not the separation from God's goodness not necessarily a separation from God necessarily a separation from God necessarily a separation from God because I because I because I God's punishment and his wrath are going God's punishment and his wrath are going God's punishment and his wrath are going to be felt there. But if we're talking to be felt there. But if we're talking to be felt there. But if we're talking about like a good place, bad place about like a good place, bad place about like a good place, bad place in the very simplest of terms, yes, but in the very simplest of terms, yes, but in the very simplest of terms, yes, but heaven isn't full of good people. Heaven heaven isn't full of good people. Heaven heaven isn't full of good people. Heaven is full of people who understand they is full of people who understand they is full of people who understand they are not good enough. And so I mentioned are not good enough. And so I mentioned are not good enough. And so I mentioned that like justice mercy thing. Justice that like justice mercy thing. Justice that like justice mercy thing. Justice is fulfilled on Jesus. So because is fulfilled on Jesus. So because is fulfilled on Jesus. So because justice is fulfilled now, justice is fulfilled now, justice is fulfilled now, mercy, which is not getting what we do mercy, which is not getting what we do mercy, which is not getting what we do deserve, is able to be given to those deserve, is able to be given to those deserve, is able to be given to those who put their trust in Jesus. who put their trust in Jesus. who put their trust in Jesus. >> So if I don't believe in Jesus and I >> So if I don't believe in Jesus and I >> So if I don't believe in Jesus and I don't believe in the Bible, don't believe in the Bible, don't believe in the Bible, >> but I live a >> but I live a >> but I live a >> good life, I'm nice to people, >> good life, I'm nice to people, >> good life, I'm nice to people, charitable, try and be kind wherever I charitable, try and be kind wherever I charitable, try and be kind wherever I can be. can be. can be. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I don't believe in God, am I going >> And I don't believe in God, am I going >> And I don't believe in God, am I going to hell or heaven as it relates to the to hell or heaven as it relates to the to hell or heaven as it relates to the scriptures? Well, I don't think if scriptures? Well, I don't think if scriptures? Well, I don't think if you're living your life rejecting God, you're living your life rejecting God, you're living your life rejecting God, God is not going to force you into his God is not going to force you into his God is not going to force you into his presence. presence. presence. >> So, I'm not going to go into he I'm not >> So, I'm not going to go into he I'm not >> So, I'm not going to go into he I'm not going to go to heaven then. going to go to heaven then. going to go to heaven then. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Where am I going to go? >> Where am I going to go? >> Where am I going to go? >> Well, you would you would go hell. >> Well, you would you would go hell. >> Well, you would you would go hell. >> So So if I don't believe in the Bible >> So So if I don't believe in the Bible >> So So if I don't believe in the Bible and Jesus and God, then I'm going to go and Jesus and God, then I'm going to go and Jesus and God, then I'm going to go to hell. to hell. to hell. >> Yes. In so far as if >> Yes. In so far as if >> Yes. In so far as if heaven is a place for those who have heaven is a place for those who have heaven is a place for those who have submitted their lives to Jesus, who are submitted their lives to Jesus, who are submitted their lives to Jesus, who are living the identity of what they're living the identity of what they're living the identity of what they're created to be and said, "Your will be created to be and said, "Your will be created to be and said, "Your will be done, God." done, God." done, God." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Hell is a place where God says, "You >> Hell is a place where God says, "You >> Hell is a place where God says, "You rejected me. Your will be done. I'm rejected me. Your will be done. I'm rejected me. Your will be done. I'm going to I'm going to give you what you going to I'm going to give you what you going to I'm going to give you what you want in that I'm going to remove my want in that I'm going to remove my want in that I'm going to remove my grace and mercy from you and you are grace and mercy from you and you are grace and mercy from you and you are going to experience truly what you going to experience truly what you going to experience truly what you desire in being separated from me and my desire in being separated from me and my desire in being separated from me and my goodness and my grace. goodness and my grace. goodness and my grace. >> And what is that place like according to >> And what is that place like according to >> And what is that place like according to the scripture? Give me a give me a the scripture? Give me a give me a the scripture? Give me a give me a depiction in my mind of what hell might depiction in my mind of what hell might depiction in my mind of what hell might be like for me. be like for me. be like for me. >> Yeah. I mean, it's not a good place. >> Yeah. I mean, it's not a good place. >> Yeah. I mean, it's not a good place. It's not a nice place. is a place that It's not a nice place. is a place that It's not a nice place. is a place that no matter what's going on, no matter what's going on, no matter what's going on, if you are a believer, if you if you if you are a believer, if you if you if you are a believer, if you if you truly understand what this book is truly understand what this book is truly understand what this book is saying, seriously, I think it should saying, seriously, I think it should saying, seriously, I think it should motivate you to want to desire. Steven motivate you to want to desire. Steven motivate you to want to desire. Steven Bartlett, I desire you to have a Bartlett, I desire you to have a Bartlett, I desire you to have a personal relationship with your creator personal relationship with your creator personal relationship with your creator because I don't want you to experience because I don't want you to experience because I don't want you to experience whatever hell is. I I I desire for you whatever hell is. I I I desire for you whatever hell is. I I I desire for you to be in perfect to be in perfect to be in perfect relationship with your God. Not relationship with your God. Not relationship with your God. Not necessarily because I want you to get a necessarily because I want you to get a necessarily because I want you to get a get out of hell free card, but because I get out of hell free card, but because I get out of hell free card, but because I actually think that in living how God actually think that in living how God actually think that in living how God created you to be in accepting living created you to be in accepting living created you to be in accepting living out the image that you bear, you're out the image that you bear, you're out the image that you bear, you're going to find the meaning and purpose going to find the meaning and purpose going to find the meaning and purpose that you ultimately have expressed that that you ultimately have expressed that that you ultimately have expressed that you have this innate desire for. I think you have this innate desire for. I think you have this innate desire for. I think it's about I think it's according to it's about I think it's according to it's about I think it's according to Gallup it's 18% of Americans don't Gallup it's 18% of Americans don't Gallup it's 18% of Americans don't believe in a god believe in a god believe in a god >> now to get into heaven >> now to get into heaven >> now to get into heaven >> as it's described in the Bible do I just >> as it's described in the Bible do I just >> as it's described in the Bible do I just need to say I believe in God or do I need to say I believe in God or do I need to say I believe in God or do I have to have some sort of active have to have some sort of active have to have some sort of active commitment and evidence in my life that commitment and evidence in my life that commitment and evidence in my life that I am living my life in line with God's I am living my life in line with God's I am living my life in line with God's you know teachings you know teachings you know teachings >> I think ultimately salvation right >> I think ultimately salvation right >> I think ultimately salvation right salvation implies you're being saved salvation implies you're being saved salvation implies you're being saved from something from something from something >> right the good news is good news because >> right the good news is good news because >> right the good news is good news because the bad news is bad. the bad news is bad. the bad news is bad. >> And the bad news is very bad. I was >> And the bad news is very bad. I was >> And the bad news is very bad. I was looking at what the Bible says about looking at what the Bible says about looking at what the Bible says about hell and in um Revelations it says it's hell and in um Revelations it says it's hell and in um Revelations it says it's a lake of fire. In Mark it says it's a lake of fire. In Mark it says it's a lake of fire. In Mark it says it's unquenchable fire. unquenchable fire. unquenchable fire. >> In Matthew it says eternal fire prepared >> In Matthew it says eternal fire prepared >> In Matthew it says eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. for the devil and his angels. for the devil and his angels. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh in Matthew again it says outer >> Uh in Matthew again it says outer >> Uh in Matthew again it says outer darkness where there will be weeping and darkness where there will be weeping and darkness where there will be weeping and nashing of teeth. nashing of teeth. nashing of teeth. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> They will be shut out from the presence >> They will be shut out from the presence >> They will be shut out from the presence of the Lord. Weeping and nashing of of the Lord. Weeping and nashing of of the Lord. Weeping and nashing of teeth and torment. Eternal punishment. teeth and torment. Eternal punishment. teeth and torment. Eternal punishment. and the smoke of their torment rises and the smoke of their torment rises and the smoke of their torment rises forever. This is not a place I want to forever. This is not a place I want to forever. This is not a place I want to go. go. go. >> No. No. And I think I think the urgency >> No. No. And I think I think the urgency >> No. No. And I think I think the urgency of the Christian message is the bad news of the Christian message is the bad news of the Christian message is the bad news is really bad. And that's what makes the is really bad. And that's what makes the is really bad. And that's what makes the good news so good. Jesus good news so good. Jesus good news so good. Jesus has taken on that hell on your behalf. has taken on that hell on your behalf. has taken on that hell on your behalf. And it goes beyond simply a believing, And it goes beyond simply a believing, And it goes beyond simply a believing, right? It's not just about saying the right? It's not just about saying the right? It's not just about saying the right words. It's not just a an right words. It's not just a an right words. It's not just a an incantation. incantation. incantation. You are not saved by what you do, right? You are not saved by what you do, right? You are not saved by what you do, right? You're saved by works. It's just You're saved by works. It's just You're saved by works. It's just Jesus's. Jesus lived the life you Jesus's. Jesus lived the life you Jesus's. Jesus lived the life you couldn't and made the sacrifice you couldn't and made the sacrifice you couldn't and made the sacrifice you can't can't can't on your behalf in order to establish on your behalf in order to establish on your behalf in order to establish that right relationship with God. So that right relationship with God. So that right relationship with God. So that's where grace comes into the that's where grace comes into the that's where grace comes into the picture. Justice is getting what you do picture. Justice is getting what you do picture. Justice is getting what you do deserve. Mercy is not getting what you deserve. Mercy is not getting what you deserve. Mercy is not getting what you do deserve. Grace is getting what you do deserve. Grace is getting what you do deserve. Grace is getting what you don't deserve. don't deserve. don't deserve. So So So in so far as Christ on the cross in so far as Christ on the cross in so far as Christ on the cross fulfills the justice of his holy law, fulfills the justice of his holy law, fulfills the justice of his holy law, mercy is enacted and you don't get that mercy is enacted and you don't get that mercy is enacted and you don't get that punishment by putting your faith and punishment by putting your faith and punishment by putting your faith and trust in Jesus as your lord and your trust in Jesus as your lord and your trust in Jesus as your lord and your savior as your creator. You don't get savior as your creator. You don't get savior as your creator. You don't get that punishment and now you get grace that punishment and now you get grace that punishment and now you get grace which is not what you're owed but you which is not what you're owed but you which is not what you're owed but you are adopted as a child of the most high. are adopted as a child of the most high. are adopted as a child of the most high. So of the 18% of people that say they So of the 18% of people that say they So of the 18% of people that say they don't believe in a god, they are almost don't believe in a god, they are almost don't believe in a god, they are almost certainly going tell according to certainly going tell according to certainly going tell according to scripture. scripture. scripture. >> Well, so James, the book of James in the >> Well, so James, the book of James in the >> Well, so James, the book of James in the Bible, who's actually the um the uh Bible, who's actually the um the uh Bible, who's actually the um the uh halfb brotherther of Jesus um he writes halfb brotherther of Jesus um he writes halfb brotherther of Jesus um he writes a book and he says, "You believe that a book and he says, "You believe that a book and he says, "You believe that God is one." He says, "Great. So do the God is one." He says, "Great. So do the God is one." He says, "Great. So do the demons." demons." demons." So the point is like if anybody knows So the point is like if anybody knows So the point is like if anybody knows and believes in God, it's the demons. and believes in God, it's the demons. and believes in God, it's the demons. It's Satan, right? So, so what's the It's Satan, right? So, so what's the It's Satan, right? So, so what's the difference there? difference there? difference there? >> The difference is there is that there's >> The difference is there is that there's >> The difference is there is that there's a relational component of when we in in a relational component of when we in in a relational component of when we in in sort of the Christianes Christian sort of the Christianes Christian sort of the Christianes Christian terminology when I say Jesus is your terminology when I say Jesus is your terminology when I say Jesus is your Lord and your Savior, what I mean is Lord and your Savior, what I mean is Lord and your Savior, what I mean is that he has rescued you. He has saved that he has rescued you. He has saved that he has rescued you. He has saved you from the penalties of sin and death. you from the penalties of sin and death. you from the penalties of sin and death. But then the Lord component is that now But then the Lord component is that now But then the Lord component is that now you have submitted your life to him in you have submitted your life to him in you have submitted your life to him in obedience and repentance. Now repentance obedience and repentance. Now repentance obedience and repentance. Now repentance is kind of another religious word that is kind of another religious word that is kind of another religious word that maybe is not always fully understood. maybe is not always fully understood. maybe is not always fully understood. Repentance is the changing and Repentance is the changing and Repentance is the changing and understanding of the way you live. You understanding of the way you live. You understanding of the way you live. You understand that the things that you used understand that the things that you used understand that the things that you used to do to do to do that are wrong are not the things that that are wrong are not the things that that are wrong are not the things that are either what you should do or are are either what you should do or are are either what you should do or are going to give you fulfillment. going to give you fulfillment. going to give you fulfillment. And you stop doing those not because God And you stop doing those not because God And you stop doing those not because God is a cosmic killjoy and he doesn't want is a cosmic killjoy and he doesn't want is a cosmic killjoy and he doesn't want you to feel the goodness of those things you to feel the goodness of those things you to feel the goodness of those things but because those things are actually but because those things are actually but because those things are actually harmful to you. They are hurting you and harmful to you. They are hurting you and harmful to you. They are hurting you and they are creating a separation of the they are creating a separation of the they are creating a separation of the relationship between you and God. relationship between you and God. relationship between you and God. >> There's going to be a very small number >> There's going to be a very small number >> There's going to be a very small number of people that actually live in such a of people that actually live in such a of people that actually live in such a way that are fully repented and have way that are fully repented and have way that are fully repented and have accepted the Lord as their savior. accepted the Lord as their savior. accepted the Lord as their savior. Right? there's only rough I think it was Right? there's only rough I think it was Right? there's only rough I think it was 30% of people actually go to church 30% of people actually go to church 30% of people actually go to church somewhat frequently and uh somewhat frequently and uh somewhat frequently and uh >> the other sort of 56% seldom will never >> the other sort of 56% seldom will never >> the other sort of 56% seldom will never go that they're not really really active go that they're not really really active go that they're not really really active in their belief. They probably haven't in their belief. They probably haven't in their belief. They probably haven't repented. So it would appear to me that repented. So it would appear to me that repented. So it would appear to me that a very small percentage of people are a very small percentage of people are a very small percentage of people are actually qualifying for the kingdom of actually qualifying for the kingdom of actually qualifying for the kingdom of heaven as it's described in the Bible. heaven as it's described in the Bible. heaven as it's described in the Bible. >> The miracle of this is that your >> The miracle of this is that your >> The miracle of this is that your salvation is received not achieved. And salvation is received not achieved. And salvation is received not achieved. And so once again, it's it's not about like so once again, it's it's not about like so once again, it's it's not about like brownie points. It's not about checking brownie points. It's not about checking brownie points. It's not about checking off, you know, I read the Bible as many off, you know, I read the Bible as many off, you know, I read the Bible as many times. I went to church as many times. I times. I went to church as many times. I times. I went to church as many times. I you know, I didn't lie. I didn't steal. you know, I didn't lie. I didn't steal. you know, I didn't lie. I didn't steal. I didn't cheat. I didn't um because we I didn't cheat. I didn't um because we I didn't cheat. I didn't um because we still exist in this beautiful yet broken still exist in this beautiful yet broken still exist in this beautiful yet broken world. And because we live in a world world. And because we live in a world world. And because we live in a world that is marred by the brokenness of the that is marred by the brokenness of the that is marred by the brokenness of the fall fall fall of our first parents, Adam and Eve, of our first parents, Adam and Eve, of our first parents, Adam and Eve, making that decision to rebel against making that decision to rebel against making that decision to rebel against God. And because of that, now the the God. And because of that, now the the God. And because of that, now the the creation itself has been affected. creation itself has been affected. creation itself has been affected. It's not about trying to earn my way It's not about trying to earn my way It's not about trying to earn my way into heaven. So is it a very small into heaven. So is it a very small into heaven. So is it a very small percentage of people who are actually percentage of people who are actually percentage of people who are actually repenting? Maybe. But what of those what repenting? Maybe. But what of those what repenting? Maybe. But what of those what of that percentage is attempt who fully of that percentage is attempt who fully of that percentage is attempt who fully understands? It's interesting the word understands? It's interesting the word understands? It's interesting the word that we translate as repentance is the that we translate as repentance is the that we translate as repentance is the Greek word metaninoia. It means change Greek word metaninoia. It means change Greek word metaninoia. It means change your mind. And so there's an aspect of your mind. And so there's an aspect of your mind. And so there's an aspect of it's not just about the doing. it's not just about the doing. it's not just about the doing. It's an understanding. It's a component It's an understanding. It's a component It's an understanding. It's a component of I don't want to do these things. Even of I don't want to do these things. Even of I don't want to do these things. Even when I do them, I I don't I don't want when I do them, I I don't I don't want when I do them, I I don't I don't want to lie anymore. Like I see the harm that to lie anymore. Like I see the harm that to lie anymore. Like I see the harm that that causes and the brokenness that it that causes and the brokenness that it that causes and the brokenness that it creates. And so even if I'm still creates. And so even if I'm still creates. And so even if I'm still breaking the law of God, right? So, in breaking the law of God, right? So, in breaking the law of God, right? So, in the book of James that I mentioned, uh the book of James that I mentioned, uh the book of James that I mentioned, uh there's this part where James says if there's this part where James says if there's this part where James says if you break one you break one you break one rule in the law, you it's as if you've rule in the law, you it's as if you've rule in the law, you it's as if you've broken them all. And I've sometimes used broken them all. And I've sometimes used broken them all. And I've sometimes used this illustration of it's like you're this illustration of it's like you're this illustration of it's like you're hanging off a cliff uh on a linked hanging off a cliff uh on a linked hanging off a cliff uh on a linked chain, right? If you cut any of those chain, right? If you cut any of those chain, right? If you cut any of those links, you're going to fall, right? It's links, you're going to fall, right? It's links, you're going to fall, right? It's no longer holding you. That's kind of no longer holding you. That's kind of no longer holding you. That's kind of the the thinking that I think James is the the thinking that I think James is the the thinking that I think James is getting at when he writes that. So you getting at when he writes that. So you getting at when he writes that. So you reference the original sin which is Adam reference the original sin which is Adam reference the original sin which is Adam and Eve taking the apple and Eve taking the apple and Eve taking the apple >> or fruit >> or fruit >> or fruit >> or the fruit whatever it might be. God >> or the fruit whatever it might be. God >> or the fruit whatever it might be. God made Adam and Eve. He's omnipotent made Adam and Eve. He's omnipotent made Adam and Eve. He's omnipotent omniscient. When he made them he knew omniscient. When he made them he knew omniscient. When he made them he knew they were going to take the apple. they were going to take the apple. they were going to take the apple. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But he made them anyway. >> But he made them anyway. >> But he made them anyway. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So that sounds like a setup. >> So that sounds like a setup. >> So that sounds like a setup. >> I you could read it as a setup. I think >> I you could read it as a setup. I think >> I you could read it as a setup. I think more so what's going on I think what more so what's going on I think what more so what's going on I think what what's what's the what strikes me as what's what's the what strikes me as what's what's the what strikes me as more amazing is that God did it anyways more amazing is that God did it anyways more amazing is that God did it anyways and he didn't hit the restart button and he didn't hit the restart button and he didn't hit the restart button >> and then he knew that when he made them >> and then he knew that when he made them >> and then he knew that when he made them that it would result in this thousands that it would result in this thousands that it would result in this thousands and thousands of year years of people and thousands of year years of people and thousands of year years of people worshiping him worshiping him worshiping him >> Mhm. I think you'd think I was a bad >> Mhm. I think you'd think I was a bad >> Mhm. I think you'd think I was a bad person like if I made something knowing person like if I made something knowing person like if I made something knowing that it was going to make a mistake and that it was going to make a mistake and that it was going to make a mistake and that mistake would result in people that mistake would result in people that mistake would result in people worshiping me for the next forever. worshiping me for the next forever. worshiping me for the next forever. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> You you would say I did this to get you >> You you would say I did this to get you >> You you would say I did this to get you to worship me. Sure. to worship me. Sure. to worship me. Sure. >> And to basically make you live in guilt >> And to basically make you live in guilt >> And to basically make you live in guilt >> that I appropate like logically that's >> that I appropate like logically that's >> that I appropate like logically that's like hold no. Like what's wrong with like hold no. Like what's wrong with like hold no. Like what's wrong with that logically? that logically? that logically? >> Well, I think I think you could read it >> Well, I think I think you could read it >> Well, I think I think you could read it like that. Uh I think ultimately and like that. Uh I think ultimately and like that. Uh I think ultimately and this might sound like a copout to some, this might sound like a copout to some, this might sound like a copout to some, but maybe God knows something we don't. but maybe God knows something we don't. but maybe God knows something we don't. >> Yeah, maybe. Yeah. >> Yeah, maybe. Yeah. >> Yeah, maybe. Yeah. >> And uh that he has reasons for allowing >> And uh that he has reasons for allowing >> And uh that he has reasons for allowing evil that maybe we don't understand and evil that maybe we don't understand and evil that maybe we don't understand and can't comprehend because he is God. can't comprehend because he is God. can't comprehend because he is God. There's an interesting thing in both the There's an interesting thing in both the There's an interesting thing in both the book of revelation and in one of the book of revelation and in one of the book of revelation and in one of the letters of Peter where it basically says letters of Peter where it basically says letters of Peter where it basically says from uh before the foundation of the from uh before the foundation of the from uh before the foundation of the world was laid the lamb was slain. So world was laid the lamb was slain. So world was laid the lamb was slain. So Jesus Jesus Jesus was crucified that the cross that whole was crucified that the cross that whole was crucified that the cross that whole bringing back people in unity and bringing back people in unity and bringing back people in unity and relationship with God via this act of relationship with God via this act of relationship with God via this act of the only innocent person who ever lived the only innocent person who ever lived the only innocent person who ever lived being murdered on a cross. Right? great being murdered on a cross. Right? great being murdered on a cross. Right? great act of evil accomplishing a lot of good. act of evil accomplishing a lot of good. act of evil accomplishing a lot of good. Once again, not the way I would do it if Once again, not the way I would do it if Once again, not the way I would do it if I was God, right? There's all sorts of I was God, right? There's all sorts of I was God, right? There's all sorts of things that we think, you know, if I was things that we think, you know, if I was things that we think, you know, if I was God, I'd do it like this. Um, thank God, I'd do it like this. Um, thank God, I'd do it like this. Um, thank goodness I'm not God. Uh, I would get a goodness I'm not God. Uh, I would get a goodness I'm not God. Uh, I would get a whole lot of things wrong. You wouldn't whole lot of things wrong. You wouldn't whole lot of things wrong. You wouldn't want to live in that world. But I think want to live in that world. But I think want to live in that world. But I think what's interesting is that the cross was what's interesting is that the cross was what's interesting is that the cross was not a contingency plan. The cross was not a contingency plan. The cross was not a contingency plan. The cross was the plan all the way along. And so God the plan all the way along. And so God the plan all the way along. And so God is glorified in that act. And I think is glorified in that act. And I think is glorified in that act. And I think part of it is what I was saying before. part of it is what I was saying before. part of it is what I was saying before. If God is love, if love is the greatest If God is love, if love is the greatest If God is love, if love is the greatest ethic, and the greatest ethic is ethic, and the greatest ethic is ethic, and the greatest ethic is expressed in expressed in expressed in the greatest example, which is the greatest example, which is the greatest example, which is self-sacrifice, then God is actually self-sacrifice, then God is actually self-sacrifice, then God is actually communicating the greatest ethic in the communicating the greatest ethic in the communicating the greatest ethic in the greatest possible way in what we see in greatest possible way in what we see in greatest possible way in what we see in the gospel message of how he the gospel message of how he the gospel message of how he accomplishes accomplishes accomplishes the unification with his people for the the unification with his people for the the unification with his people for the goodness and glory of who he is. And do goodness and glory of who he is. And do goodness and glory of who he is. And do I understand all the complexities and I understand all the complexities and I understand all the complexities and mysteries that go in conjunction with mysteries that go in conjunction with mysteries that go in conjunction with that? No. But I'm convinced beyond a that? No. But I'm convinced beyond a that? No. But I'm convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that the historical and reasonable doubt that the historical and reasonable doubt that the historical and the philosophical case for the existence the philosophical case for the existence the philosophical case for the existence of God and then that God specifically of God and then that God specifically of God and then that God specifically being the God that is articulated in the being the God that is articulated in the being the God that is articulated in the Bible is true. And on that basis, Bible is true. And on that basis, Bible is true. And on that basis, I am willing to submit my life because I am willing to submit my life because I am willing to submit my life because of both the evidence and because I've of both the evidence and because I've of both the evidence and because I've actually seen my own life change actually seen my own life change actually seen my own life change radically. So you're you're a friend, radically. So you're you're a friend, radically. So you're you're a friend, right? You say like you've seen an right? You say like you've seen an right? You say like you've seen an actual actual actual experiential change in that person's experiential change in that person's experiential change in that person's life. life. life. >> Oh, yeah. No, my so my friend um I >> Oh, yeah. No, my so my friend um I >> Oh, yeah. No, my so my friend um I talked about him anonymously on here, talked about him anonymously on here, talked about him anonymously on here, but he then clipped it, posted on his but he then clipped it, posted on his but he then clipped it, posted on his Instagram and said Stephen's talking Instagram and said Stephen's talking Instagram and said Stephen's talking about me. Okay. about me. Okay. about me. Okay. >> And he's he's like doing some interviews >> And he's he's like doing some interviews >> And he's he's like doing some interviews and stuff now. So I feel more and stuff now. So I feel more and stuff now. So I feel more comfortable talking about him more comfortable talking about him more comfortable talking about him more publicly. But yeah, my friend who was publicly. But yeah, my friend who was publicly. But yeah, my friend who was going through a little bit of a crisis going through a little bit of a crisis going through a little bit of a crisis of meaning in his life was living in of meaning in his life was living in of meaning in his life was living in Dubai in this penthouse apartment, Dubai in this penthouse apartment, Dubai in this penthouse apartment, single, kind of alone, remote working, single, kind of alone, remote working, single, kind of alone, remote working, >> all those kinds of, you know, very >> all those kinds of, you know, very >> all those kinds of, you know, very individualistic lifestyle, successful in individualistic lifestyle, successful in individualistic lifestyle, successful in a material sense, a material sense, a material sense, >> all of a sudden turned to Christianity, >> all of a sudden turned to Christianity, >> all of a sudden turned to Christianity, flew to America, got baptized, and is flew to America, got baptized, and is flew to America, got baptized, and is now now now >> Christian. >> Christian. >> Christian. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And would I say he is happier than >> And would I say he is happier than >> And would I say he is happier than before? 100%. Would I say I am very glad before? 100%. Would I say I am very glad before? 100%. Would I say I am very glad he became Christian? 100%. Would I say he became Christian? 100%. Would I say he became Christian? 100%. Would I say that I believe his future's going to be that I believe his future's going to be that I believe his future's going to be better because he's now a Christian? better because he's now a Christian? better because he's now a Christian? 100%. That's a lot of 100%. 100%. That's a lot of 100%. 100%. That's a lot of 100%. >> No, but it's true. It's objectively >> No, but it's true. It's objectively >> No, but it's true. It's objectively true. Like I even spoke to we've been true. Like I even spoke to we've been true. Like I even spoke to we've been friends for decades and all of us feel friends for decades and all of us feel friends for decades and all of us feel the same way. We don't even have to the same way. We don't even have to the same way. We don't even have to agree with what he believes to think agree with what he believes to think agree with what he believes to think actually he's it's helped him. Well, and actually he's it's helped him. Well, and actually he's it's helped him. Well, and in that I don't think that I think in that I don't think that I think in that I don't think that I think there's an objectivity to the actual there's an objectivity to the actual there's an objectivity to the actual evidence that I evaluate in terms of the evidence that I evaluate in terms of the evidence that I evaluate in terms of the historical reliability of the Bible and historical reliability of the Bible and historical reliability of the Bible and the philosophical explanations for the philosophical explanations for the philosophical explanations for meaning and purpose and morality, how we meaning and purpose and morality, how we meaning and purpose and morality, how we ground those, the scientific data of a ground those, the scientific data of a ground those, the scientific data of a universe that looks like it's fine-tuned universe that looks like it's fine-tuned universe that looks like it's fine-tuned and has intelligence designed into it. and has intelligence designed into it. and has intelligence designed into it. But the subjectivity of how I understand But the subjectivity of how I understand But the subjectivity of how I understand my life and have seen it change my life and have seen it change my life and have seen it change radically and what what you see in your radically and what what you see in your radically and what what you see in your friend is not inconsequential. friend is not inconsequential. friend is not inconsequential. >> No, it's not. >> No, it's not. >> No, it's not. >> And it it it testifies to something. It >> And it it it testifies to something. It >> And it it it testifies to something. It testifies to a hope that even in testifies to a hope that even in testifies to a hope that even in scripture in 1 Peter 3, scripture in 1 Peter 3, scripture in 1 Peter 3, Peter writing to the dispersed church in Peter writing to the dispersed church in Peter writing to the dispersed church in the ancient world has this in the the ancient world has this in the the ancient world has this in the context of persecution says, "But in context of persecution says, "But in context of persecution says, "But in your hearts rever Christ as Lord. Always your hearts rever Christ as Lord. Always your hearts rever Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to be prepared to give an answer to be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give a reason everyone who asks you to give a reason everyone who asks you to give a reason for the hope that you have. But do so for the hope that you have. But do so for the hope that you have. But do so with gentleness and respect, keeping a with gentleness and respect, keeping a with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience so that those who speak clear conscience so that those who speak clear conscience so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior maliciously against your good behavior maliciously against your good behavior in Christ will be ashamed of their in Christ will be ashamed of their in Christ will be ashamed of their slander." And there's this implication slander." And there's this implication slander." And there's this implication that always be prepared to give an that always be prepared to give an that always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you for an answer to everyone who asks you for an answer to everyone who asks you for an argument for the existence of God. No, argument for the existence of God. No, argument for the existence of God. No, that's not what he says. He says to give that's not what he says. He says to give that's not what he says. He says to give the reason for the hope that you have. the reason for the hope that you have. the reason for the hope that you have. Your friend is communicating a hope that Your friend is communicating a hope that Your friend is communicating a hope that you took notice of. And I think that is you took notice of. And I think that is you took notice of. And I think that is literally the word to give an answer literally the word to give an answer literally the word to give an answer that we translate as to give an answer, that we translate as to give an answer, that we translate as to give an answer, defense, or reason in many English Bible defense, or reason in many English Bible defense, or reason in many English Bible translations is the Greek word apologia. translations is the Greek word apologia. translations is the Greek word apologia. to give an apologetic to give a defense to give an apologetic to give a defense to give an apologetic to give a defense and scripturally and scripturally and scripturally scripture does call us to love the Lord scripture does call us to love the Lord scripture does call us to love the Lord our God with all of our mind and I think our God with all of our mind and I think our God with all of our mind and I think there's an aspect of God if I my friend there's an aspect of God if I my friend there's an aspect of God if I my friend Tim Barnett works for actually stand to Tim Barnett works for actually stand to Tim Barnett works for actually stand to reason which is Greg Kokal's reason which is Greg Kokal's reason which is Greg Kokal's organization you had Greg Greg in in in organization you had Greg Greg in in in organization you had Greg Greg in in in your uh panel discussion recently my your uh panel discussion recently my your uh panel discussion recently my friend Tim says if you want to know the friend Tim says if you want to know the friend Tim says if you want to know the mind of God you better start by using mind of God you better start by using mind of God you better start by using your own and so in that way I think we your own and so in that way I think we your own and so in that way I think we can worship God through that you know can worship God through that you know can worship God through that you know there's a component of God has endowed there's a component of God has endowed there's a component of God has endowed us with intelligence and we can use that us with intelligence and we can use that us with intelligence and we can use that to speak to the things that he has to speak to the things that he has to speak to the things that he has actually actually actually created and the evidence for that. But created and the evidence for that. But created and the evidence for that. But at the exact same time the hope of the at the exact same time the hope of the at the exact same time the hope of the life changed of to use you know Jesus's life changed of to use you know Jesus's life changed of to use you know Jesus's own language in John 3 being born again own language in John 3 being born again own language in John 3 being born again I think also communicates something that I think also communicates something that I think also communicates something that is genuinely profound. I is genuinely profound. I is genuinely profound. I agree and I agree and I agree and I I would assert that maybe if he had I would assert that maybe if he had I would assert that maybe if he had converted to pretty much any of the converted to pretty much any of the converted to pretty much any of the major religions, he would have major religions, he would have major religions, he would have experienced the same transformative experienced the same transformative experienced the same transformative upside. upside. upside. >> And when you look at people that do >> And when you look at people that do >> And when you look at people that do convert to other religions outside of convert to other religions outside of convert to other religions outside of Christianity, they do experience a Christianity, they do experience a Christianity, they do experience a greater sense of meaning and community greater sense of meaning and community greater sense of meaning and community and all the things that come with it and all the things that come with it and all the things that come with it that gives them that sense of belonging that gives them that sense of belonging that gives them that sense of belonging and maybe calms their anxieties and and maybe calms their anxieties and and maybe calms their anxieties and their worries and their nihilism to a their worries and their nihilism to a their worries and their nihilism to a point where they can live a bit more of point where they can live a bit more of point where they can live a bit more of a content life. So is it is that a content life. So is it is that a content life. So is it is that evidence of Christianity or is that just evidence of Christianity or is that just evidence of Christianity or is that just evidence that we're all in search of evidence that we're all in search of evidence that we're all in search of meaning in a world that's increasingly meaning in a world that's increasingly meaning in a world that's increasingly nihilistic and individualistic and says nihilistic and individualistic and says nihilistic and individualistic and says that there's nothing other than as you that there's nothing other than as you that there's nothing other than as you say like time space matter etc. say like time space matter etc. say like time space matter etc. >> No that's a great point. I don't think >> No that's a great point. I don't think >> No that's a great point. I don't think it's arbitrary. I think you know there's it's arbitrary. I think you know there's it's arbitrary. I think you know there's an aspect of religiosity that is always an aspect of religiosity that is always an aspect of religiosity that is always going to be a net positive for society going to be a net positive for society going to be a net positive for society no matter what that religion is because no matter what that religion is because no matter what that religion is because I think it's going to give an aspect of I think it's going to give an aspect of I think it's going to give an aspect of purpose and identity to people. At the purpose and identity to people. At the purpose and identity to people. At the exact same time, I don't think it's just exact same time, I don't think it's just exact same time, I don't think it's just the subjective point of view. Right? the subjective point of view. Right? the subjective point of view. Right? This is why I think it's very dangerous This is why I think it's very dangerous This is why I think it's very dangerous when I go out. So, I used to work for a when I go out. So, I used to work for a when I go out. So, I used to work for a a minister organization that worked on a minister organization that worked on a minister organization that worked on university campuses and we would go and university campuses and we would go and university campuses and we would go and we would talk with students and uh I too we would talk with students and uh I too we would talk with students and uh I too many times to count would hear a student many times to count would hear a student many times to count would hear a student ask another student, why do you believe ask another student, why do you believe ask another student, why do you believe in Christianity? And they would then in Christianity? And they would then in Christianity? And they would then proceed in articulating how they became proceed in articulating how they became proceed in articulating how they became a Christian. Mhm. a Christian. Mhm. a Christian. Mhm. >> Well, that's not the answer, right? >> Well, that's not the answer, right? >> Well, that's not the answer, right? That's not the actually the question That's not the actually the question That's not the actually the question they asked. They asked, "Why do you they asked. They asked, "Why do you they asked. They asked, "Why do you believe it's true and you answered with believe it's true and you answered with believe it's true and you answered with how you kind of got into this group if how you kind of got into this group if how you kind of got into this group if they had ran into a Buddhist, they said, they had ran into a Buddhist, they said, they had ran into a Buddhist, they said, why do you believe Buddhism is true?" why do you believe Buddhism is true?" why do you believe Buddhism is true?" and you say, you know, well, I just met and you say, you know, well, I just met and you say, you know, well, I just met these really great people on campus and these really great people on campus and these really great people on campus and they invited me over for, you know, they invited me over for, you know, they invited me over for, you know, karma discussions and pizza and and it's karma discussions and pizza and and it's karma discussions and pizza and and it's radically changed my life and I, you radically changed my life and I, you radically changed my life and I, you know, follow the noble truths and the know, follow the noble truths and the know, follow the noble truths and the the the path of the Buddha and it it's the the path of the Buddha and it it's the the path of the Buddha and it it's changed my life. changed my life. changed my life. When you give them that story, now I When you give them that story, now I When you give them that story, now I don't I don't want people to hear me don't I don't want people to hear me don't I don't want people to hear me saying that giving your testimony is not saying that giving your testimony is not saying that giving your testimony is not a good thing to do. I just think there's a good thing to do. I just think there's a good thing to do. I just think there's a time and a place where it could have a time and a place where it could have a time and a place where it could have been any situation. It sounds been any situation. It sounds been any situation. It sounds convenient. You could have run into a convenient. You could have run into a convenient. You could have run into a Muslim or a Mormon or a Buddhist or a Muslim or a Mormon or a Buddhist or a Muslim or a Mormon or a Buddhist or a Hindu and just stumbled into those Hindu and just stumbled into those Hindu and just stumbled into those conversations. And that's where I think conversations. And that's where I think conversations. And that's where I think answering why I believe it's true answering why I believe it's true answering why I believe it's true is more than just that. It's no less is more than just that. It's no less is more than just that. It's no less than that, but it's more than that than that, but it's more than that than that, but it's more than that because I believe that the multivalent because I believe that the multivalent because I believe that the multivalent argument for the truthfulness with the argument for the truthfulness with the argument for the truthfulness with the capital T of Christianity has a capital T of Christianity has a capital T of Christianity has a historical backing and a philosophical historical backing and a philosophical historical backing and a philosophical backing and scientific backing and backing and scientific backing and backing and scientific backing and psychological backing and all of those psychological backing and all of those psychological backing and all of those things. And I bet your friend would say things. And I bet your friend would say things. And I bet your friend would say it too. it too. it too. >> Oh yeah, >> Oh yeah, >> Oh yeah, >> I bet he would. >> I bet he would. >> I bet he would. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And in one sense, my goal is to adhere >> And in one sense, my goal is to adhere >> And in one sense, my goal is to adhere to truth with a capital T even above my to truth with a capital T even above my to truth with a capital T even above my allegiance to Jesus. Now, I believe allegiance to Jesus. Now, I believe allegiance to Jesus. Now, I believe Jesus is the truth with a capital T. So, Jesus is the truth with a capital T. So, Jesus is the truth with a capital T. So, I I don't think that there's a conflict I I don't think that there's a conflict I I don't think that there's a conflict of interest there. But I I want to of interest there. But I I want to of interest there. But I I want to follow what's true because even if it's follow what's true because even if it's follow what's true because even if it's a convenient lie, it's still a lie and I a convenient lie, it's still a lie and I a convenient lie, it's still a lie and I don't want to live my life for a lie. don't want to live my life for a lie. don't want to live my life for a lie. New year always has a strange energy to New year always has a strange energy to New year always has a strange energy to it because people start talking about it because people start talking about it because people start talking about their goals, fresh starts, and new their goals, fresh starts, and new their goals, fresh starts, and new habits. But the reality is that most habits. But the reality is that most habits. But the reality is that most people carry the same ideas they had people carry the same ideas they had people carry the same ideas they had last year into the new year. I'm guilty last year into the new year. I'm guilty last year into the new year. I'm guilty of that, too. and they still don't end of that, too. and they still don't end of that, too. and they still don't end up doing anything with them. And I get up doing anything with them. And I get up doing anything with them. And I get why starting something new, especially why starting something new, especially why starting something new, especially if it's a business or a project, is if it's a business or a project, is if it's a business or a project, is overwhelming. Before you start, you're overwhelming. Before you start, you're overwhelming. Before you start, you're looking for the perfect moment and to be looking for the perfect moment and to be looking for the perfect moment and to be the perfect version of yourself. When the perfect version of yourself. When the perfect version of yourself. 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Whether it's in business or health, we all have big business or health, we all have big business or health, we all have big goals that we want to accomplish. And goals that we want to accomplish. And goals that we want to accomplish. And one of the things I've learned is that one of the things I've learned is that one of the things I've learned is that when you aim at the big big goal, it can when you aim at the big big goal, it can when you aim at the big big goal, it can feel incredibly psychologically feel incredibly psychologically feel incredibly psychologically uncomfortable because it's kind of like uncomfortable because it's kind of like uncomfortable because it's kind of like being stood at the foot of Mount Everest being stood at the foot of Mount Everest being stood at the foot of Mount Everest and looking upwards. The way to and looking upwards. The way to and looking upwards. The way to accomplish your goals is by breaking accomplish your goals is by breaking accomplish your goals is by breaking them down into tiny small steps. And we them down into tiny small steps. And we them down into tiny small steps. And we call this in our team the 1%. And call this in our team the 1%. And call this in our team the 1%. And actually this philosophy is highly actually this philosophy is highly actually this philosophy is highly responsible for much of our success responsible for much of our success responsible for much of our success here. So what we've done so that you at here. So what we've done so that you at here. So what we've done so that you at home can accomplish any big goal that home can accomplish any big goal that home can accomplish any big goal that you have is we've made these 1% diaries you have is we've made these 1% diaries you have is we've made these 1% diaries and we released these last year and they and we released these last year and they and we released these last year and they all sold out. So I asked my team over all sold out. So I asked my team over all sold out. So I asked my team over and over again to bring the diaries back and over again to bring the diaries back and over again to bring the diaries back but also to introduce some new colors but also to introduce some new colors but also to introduce some new colors and to make some minor tweaks to the and to make some minor tweaks to the and to make some minor tweaks to the diary. So now we have a better range for diary. So now we have a better range for diary. So now we have a better range for you. So, if you have a big goal in mind you. So, if you have a big goal in mind you. So, if you have a big goal in mind and you need a framework and a process and you need a framework and a process and you need a framework and a process and some motivation, then I highly and some motivation, then I highly and some motivation, then I highly recommend you get one of these diaries recommend you get one of these diaries recommend you get one of these diaries before they all sell out once again. And before they all sell out once again. And before they all sell out once again. And you can get yours at the diary.com. you can get yours at the diary.com. you can get yours at the diary.com. And if you want the link, the link is in And if you want the link, the link is in And if you want the link, the link is in the description below. the description below. the description below. >> And on that point, one of the things >> And on that point, one of the things >> And on that point, one of the things that really convinced me when I was a uh that really convinced me when I was a uh that really convinced me when I was a uh when I was going through my little when I was going through my little when I was going through my little atheism phase was this this geography atheism phase was this this geography atheism phase was this this geography argument, which I'm sure you've heard a argument, which I'm sure you've heard a argument, which I'm sure you've heard a million times. If I'd been born in Saudi million times. If I'd been born in Saudi million times. If I'd been born in Saudi Arabia, I'd probably be a Muslim. If I'd Arabia, I'd probably be a Muslim. If I'd Arabia, I'd probably be a Muslim. If I'd been born in is India, I'd probably be been born in is India, I'd probably be been born in is India, I'd probably be Hindu. So it seems like the religion you Hindu. So it seems like the religion you Hindu. So it seems like the religion you believe entirely depends on where you believe entirely depends on where you believe entirely depends on where you were born, were born, were born, >> not on necessarily what is true. And >> not on necessarily what is true. And >> not on necessarily what is true. And therefore, if we go back to this point therefore, if we go back to this point therefore, if we go back to this point about hell, I remember thinking at like about hell, I remember thinking at like about hell, I remember thinking at like 19 years old, oh my god, like actually 19 years old, oh my god, like actually 19 years old, oh my god, like actually where you're born is determining whether where you're born is determining whether where you're born is determining whether you go to this fiery eternal suffering you go to this fiery eternal suffering you go to this fiery eternal suffering or not. And that's not fair. So this or not. And that's not fair. So this or not. And that's not fair. So this must all be not true. must all be not true. must all be not true. >> Yeah. I mean, I was born in Pakistan. So >> Yeah. I mean, I was born in Pakistan. So >> Yeah. I mean, I was born in Pakistan. So I was born in a majority Muslim country I was born in a majority Muslim country I was born in a majority Muslim country and I'm not a Muslim. Now, you could and I'm not a Muslim. Now, you could and I'm not a Muslim. Now, you could argue my parents weren't Muslims, but I argue my parents weren't Muslims, but I argue my parents weren't Muslims, but I know tons of people who were. My know tons of people who were. My know tons of people who were. My colleague Steve, who is our Alberta colleague Steve, who is our Alberta colleague Steve, who is our Alberta director at Apologetics Canada. He was director at Apologetics Canada. He was director at Apologetics Canada. He was born in Korea and went to a school born in Korea and went to a school born in Korea and went to a school setting that was Buddhist. setting that was Buddhist. setting that was Buddhist. >> But, but I mean, the numbers are the >> But, but I mean, the numbers are the >> But, but I mean, the numbers are the numbers like you're like 95% I don't numbers like you're like 95% I don't numbers like you're like 95% I don't know what the numbers are, but I know know what the numbers are, but I know know what the numbers are, but I know it's over 90% likely to be the religion it's over 90% likely to be the religion it's over 90% likely to be the religion of that territory if you take a on a of that territory if you take a on a of that territory if you take a on a religion at all religion at all religion at all >> just by where you were born. And that >> just by where you were born. And that >> just by where you were born. And that doesn't fit. I remember thinking very doesn't fit. I remember thinking very doesn't fit. I remember thinking very clearly at 19 years old, this doesn't clearly at 19 years old, this doesn't clearly at 19 years old, this doesn't feel fair. feel fair. feel fair. >> Sure. as a way to determine who gets >> Sure. as a way to determine who gets >> Sure. as a way to determine who gets into hell or heaven, which is like my into hell or heaven, which is like my into hell or heaven, which is like my parents and where they they conceived me parents and where they they conceived me parents and where they they conceived me or whatever. or whatever. or whatever. >> Sure. I mean, in one sense, you don't >> Sure. I mean, in one sense, you don't >> Sure. I mean, in one sense, you don't want fair because fair is you going to want fair because fair is you going to want fair because fair is you going to hell. Um, and the gospel message is not hell. Um, and the gospel message is not hell. Um, and the gospel message is not fair, right? So, so the actual gospel fair, right? So, so the actual gospel fair, right? So, so the actual gospel message is not about fairness message is not about fairness message is not about fairness because fairness is because fairness is because fairness is I get the just penalty for what I do. I get the just penalty for what I do. I get the just penalty for what I do. Right? And that's where the whole Right? And that's where the whole Right? And that's where the whole concept of mercy and grace are so concept of mercy and grace are so concept of mercy and grace are so they're so central to the Christian they're so central to the Christian they're so central to the Christian message is Buddhism and Hinduism are message is Buddhism and Hinduism are message is Buddhism and Hinduism are based on fairness based on fairness based on fairness solely based on fairness right the cycle solely based on fairness right the cycle solely based on fairness right the cycle of samsara of life death birth and of samsara of life death birth and of samsara of life death birth and rebirth the karmic cycles that's fair uh rebirth the karmic cycles that's fair uh rebirth the karmic cycles that's fair uh in one sense what god does when he in one sense what god does when he in one sense what god does when he intervenes in humanity when he intervenes in humanity when he intervenes in humanity when he incarnates becomes flesh steps into incarnates becomes flesh steps into incarnates becomes flesh steps into humanity and actually experiences pain humanity and actually experiences pain humanity and actually experiences pain and hurt and suffering and death in a and hurt and suffering and death in a and hurt and suffering and death in a way that makes the God of the Bible way that makes the God of the Bible way that makes the God of the Bible unique and actually experiential to what unique and actually experiential to what unique and actually experiential to what you and I go through when we have those you and I go through when we have those you and I go through when we have those struggles and doubts. He then struggles and doubts. He then struggles and doubts. He then takes on the punishment that we deserve. takes on the punishment that we deserve. takes on the punishment that we deserve. And the fairness is not actually what is And the fairness is not actually what is And the fairness is not actually what is then given because the fairness is then given because the fairness is then given because the fairness is Wes Huff Wes Huff Wes Huff getting what he actually deserves for getting what he actually deserves for getting what he actually deserves for the weight and the penalty of his cosmic the weight and the penalty of his cosmic the weight and the penalty of his cosmic rebellion rebellion rebellion in choosing a life that is is against in choosing a life that is is against in choosing a life that is is against and away from God. I'm unclear. and away from God. I'm unclear. and away from God. I'm unclear. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So, if I was if I had Moroccan parents, >> So, if I was if I had Moroccan parents, >> So, if I was if I had Moroccan parents, my probability of being Muslim is like my probability of being Muslim is like my probability of being Muslim is like 99%. 99%. 99%. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Um, and if I was born in Morocco, that >> Um, and if I was born in Morocco, that >> Um, and if I was born in Morocco, that would that would kind of set me up to go would that would kind of set me up to go would that would kind of set me up to go to hell theoretically. to hell theoretically. to hell theoretically. >> Yes. In so far as you're either you're >> Yes. In so far as you're either you're >> Yes. In so far as you're either you're taking on your sin. taking on your sin. taking on your sin. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that's the punishment. Or Christ is >> And that's the punishment. Or Christ is >> And that's the punishment. Or Christ is taking on your sin and then you are then taking on your sin and then you are then taking on your sin and then you are then covered in his intercession. covered in his intercession. covered in his intercession. >> Okay. But it's not about believing or >> Okay. But it's not about believing or >> Okay. But it's not about believing or not believing. not believing. not believing. >> Yeah. Which you explained earlier. Yeah. >> Yeah. Which you explained earlier. Yeah. >> Yeah. Which you explained earlier. Yeah. Which was which was useful for me Which was which was useful for me Which was which was useful for me because that that that gave me a new because that that that gave me a new because that that that gave me a new understanding that I didn't have understanding that I didn't have understanding that I didn't have previously. previously. previously. >> Um the other thing I think a lot about >> Um the other thing I think a lot about >> Um the other thing I think a lot about or I thought a lot about was prayer. So or I thought a lot about was prayer. So or I thought a lot about was prayer. So this was really compelling to me when I this was really compelling to me when I this was really compelling to me when I was younger, which was, you know, I was younger, which was, you know, I was younger, which was, you know, I would I would hear these stories of would I would hear these stories of would I would hear these stories of horrific things that had happened in the horrific things that had happened in the horrific things that had happened in the world. If you think about what happened world. If you think about what happened world. If you think about what happened in Nazi Germany and I'd hear that the in Nazi Germany and I'd hear that the in Nazi Germany and I'd hear that the people there were, you know, very people there were, you know, very people there were, you know, very religious and praying and it didn't seem religious and praying and it didn't seem religious and praying and it didn't seem to change the odds of their fate. And to change the odds of their fate. And to change the odds of their fate. And when you look at hospital stats of when you look at hospital stats of when you look at hospital stats of Christians versus non-Christians, Christians versus non-Christians, Christians versus non-Christians, generally praying doesn't seem to be generally praying doesn't seem to be generally praying doesn't seem to be impacting outcome. impacting outcome. impacting outcome. >> So therefore, I concluded as like a >> So therefore, I concluded as like a >> So therefore, I concluded as like a 19-year-old that maybe prayer doesn't 19-year-old that maybe prayer doesn't 19-year-old that maybe prayer doesn't work and why are people doing it when it work and why are people doing it when it work and why are people doing it when it doesn't seem to historically have doesn't seem to historically have doesn't seem to historically have worked? What is the what is your worked? What is the what is your worked? What is the what is your perspective? Does praying work? If if my perspective? Does praying work? If if my perspective? Does praying work? If if my child is sick and I start praying, is is child is sick and I start praying, is is child is sick and I start praying, is is that going to help? that going to help? that going to help? >> I mean, it also kind of begs the >> I mean, it also kind of begs the >> I mean, it also kind of begs the question of what we think prayer is. question of what we think prayer is. question of what we think prayer is. Is prayer Is prayer Is prayer incantations incantations incantations to plate God? to plate God? to plate God? >> What does that mean? >> What does that mean? >> What does that mean? >> Like is God a genie? Right. So I say the >> Like is God a genie? Right. So I say the >> Like is God a genie? Right. So I say the right prayers and uh he gives me what right prayers and uh he gives me what right prayers and uh he gives me what what I want. what I want. what I want. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um now there are some religious systems >> Um now there are some religious systems >> Um now there are some religious systems that that is kind of what prayer is is that that is kind of what prayer is is that that is kind of what prayer is is is you know that's all the agricultural is you know that's all the agricultural is you know that's all the agricultural deities of the ancient near east. like deities of the ancient near east. like deities of the ancient near east. like you you say the right things and you you you say the right things and you you you say the right things and you give the right sacrifices and the the give the right sacrifices and the the give the right sacrifices and the the the hope is that you know the gods would the hope is that you know the gods would the hope is that you know the gods would accept that and then they then you know accept that and then they then you know accept that and then they then you know in the reciprocal nature of that they in the reciprocal nature of that they in the reciprocal nature of that they give you good crops. I think prayer in give you good crops. I think prayer in give you good crops. I think prayer in Christianity is a give and take in that Christianity is a give and take in that Christianity is a give and take in that it's a relational thing. It's God it's a relational thing. It's God it's a relational thing. It's God desiring desiring desiring to have communication with you. If you to have communication with you. If you to have communication with you. If you read the psalms, a lot of which are read the psalms, a lot of which are read the psalms, a lot of which are prayers, uh even, you know, I mentioned prayers, uh even, you know, I mentioned prayers, uh even, you know, I mentioned the lament psalms, like it's David or the lament psalms, like it's David or the lament psalms, like it's David or whoever the psalmist coming to God and whoever the psalmist coming to God and whoever the psalmist coming to God and saying, "I don't get it. I'm hurting. saying, "I don't get it. I'm hurting. saying, "I don't get it. I'm hurting. I'm broken. I'm alone. I don't feel I'm broken. I'm alone. I don't feel I'm broken. I'm alone. I don't feel you." There's an aspect of the you." There's an aspect of the you." There's an aspect of the relational component of prayer. Now, relational component of prayer. Now, relational component of prayer. Now, prayer is not just that, right? prayer prayer is not just that, right? prayer prayer is not just that, right? prayer is, you know, asking is is supplications is, you know, asking is is supplications is, you know, asking is is supplications is is is is is is committing your desires to God because committing your desires to God because committing your desires to God because you believe that God can actually work you believe that God can actually work you believe that God can actually work in the universe and do things. in the universe and do things. in the universe and do things. >> And that's kind of what the Bible the >> And that's kind of what the Bible the >> And that's kind of what the Bible the Bible says. It says, "Pour out your Bible says. It says, "Pour out your Bible says. It says, "Pour out your hearts to him. Call him and and call to hearts to him. Call him and and call to hearts to him. Call him and and call to me and I will answer you in in me and I will answer you in in me and I will answer you in in Jeremiah." Jeremiah." Jeremiah." >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And it also says, "Ask and it will be >> And it also says, "Ask and it will be >> And it also says, "Ask and it will be given to you in Matthew." given to you in Matthew." given to you in Matthew." >> Yeah. Seek and you will find. Knock and >> Yeah. Seek and you will find. Knock and >> Yeah. Seek and you will find. Knock and the door will be opened unto you. I the door will be opened unto you. I the door will be opened unto you. I mean, part of those is that the the mean, part of those is that the the mean, part of those is that the the there's a little bit of a trickiness in there's a little bit of a trickiness in there's a little bit of a trickiness in quote mining because the context could quote mining because the context could quote mining because the context could mean prayer. The context could mean, you mean prayer. The context could mean, you mean prayer. The context could mean, you know, the the salvific act of God, you know, the the salvific act of God, you know, the the salvific act of God, you know, uh knock and the door shall be know, uh knock and the door shall be know, uh knock and the door shall be opened unto you. Like if if you're opened unto you. Like if if you're opened unto you. Like if if you're actually seeking God and you're doing actually seeking God and you're doing actually seeking God and you're doing that with an open heart and an open that with an open heart and an open that with an open heart and an open mind, God is going to say, you know, mind, God is going to say, you know, mind, God is going to say, you know, yes, I'm I'm entering into your life. yes, I'm I'm entering into your life. yes, I'm I'm entering into your life. I'm doing I'm revealing myself to you. I'm doing I'm revealing myself to you. I'm doing I'm revealing myself to you. Now, God can answer yes. God can answer Now, God can answer yes. God can answer Now, God can answer yes. God can answer no. And God can answer weight. Those are no. And God can answer weight. Those are no. And God can answer weight. Those are all answers to prayer. all answers to prayer. all answers to prayer. >> Do you think God answers prayers? >> Do you think God answers prayers? >> Do you think God answers prayers? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And is there a certain type of prayer he >> And is there a certain type of prayer he >> And is there a certain type of prayer he might answer? You know, cuz if I lose my might answer? You know, cuz if I lose my might answer? You know, cuz if I lose my keys, oh, please, you know, help me find keys, oh, please, you know, help me find keys, oh, please, you know, help me find my keys. my keys. my keys. >> I assume he might not answer that one. >> I assume he might not answer that one. >> I assume he might not answer that one. But is there a certain type of prayer But is there a certain type of prayer But is there a certain type of prayer you think God answers? you think God answers? you think God answers? >> I don't think it's I don't think it's a >> I don't think it's I don't think it's a >> I don't think it's I don't think it's a magical formula. magical formula. magical formula. >> Okay. I I think you know the thing that >> Okay. I I think you know the thing that >> Okay. I I think you know the thing that we see within Christianity is that is we see within Christianity is that is we see within Christianity is that is that prayer is that prayer is that prayer is the a relational aspect like there are the a relational aspect like there are the a relational aspect like there are so when when the disciples I mentioned so when when the disciples I mentioned so when when the disciples I mentioned earlier they asked Jesus how should we earlier they asked Jesus how should we earlier they asked Jesus how should we pray and he gives the Lord's prayer in pray and he gives the Lord's prayer in pray and he gives the Lord's prayer in some ways that's less of a prescription some ways that's less of a prescription some ways that's less of a prescription you know say these words in the right you know say these words in the right you know say these words in the right way because even Jesus says you know way because even Jesus says you know way because even Jesus says you know don't babble like the pagans do don't babble like the pagans do don't babble like the pagans do >> um but there's an aspect of our father >> um but there's an aspect of our father >> um but there's an aspect of our father who art in heaven like a recognition of who art in heaven like a recognition of who art in heaven like a recognition of who God is. Holy be your name, right? who God is. Holy be your name, right? who God is. Holy be your name, right? Your kingdom come. Your will be done on Your kingdom come. Your will be done on Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this earth as it is in heaven. Give us this earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. Right? There's a, day our daily bread. Right? There's a, day our daily bread. Right? There's a, you know, give us the provision that we you know, give us the provision that we you know, give us the provision that we need. Give us this day our daily bread. need. Give us this day our daily bread. need. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our our trespasses, our And forgive us our our trespasses, our And forgive us our our trespasses, our sins as we forgive those who sin against sins as we forgive those who sin against sins as we forgive those who sin against us. That's an interesting one because us. That's an interesting one because us. That's an interesting one because we're asking God to forgive us like we we're asking God to forgive us like we we're asking God to forgive us like we forgive others, which can be dangerous forgive others, which can be dangerous forgive others, which can be dangerous sometimes, right? Maybe I don't want to sometimes, right? Maybe I don't want to sometimes, right? Maybe I don't want to pray that all the time. For yours is the pray that all the time. For yours is the pray that all the time. For yours is the kingdom, the power, and the glory kingdom, the power, and the glory kingdom, the power, and the glory forever and ever. Amen. So, in some forever and ever. Amen. So, in some forever and ever. Amen. So, in some ways, is that God telling us is that ways, is that God telling us is that ways, is that God telling us is that Jesus telling us how to pray exactly? I Jesus telling us how to pray exactly? I Jesus telling us how to pray exactly? I don't think that's not a part of it. But don't think that's not a part of it. But don't think that's not a part of it. But I also think that, you know, there's an I also think that, you know, there's an I also think that, you know, there's an aspect of it. Recognize who God is. aspect of it. Recognize who God is. aspect of it. Recognize who God is. Recognize who you are. Uh, you know, do Recognize who you are. Uh, you know, do Recognize who you are. Uh, you know, do ask for provision. Do ask for things ask for provision. Do ask for things ask for provision. Do ask for things that you need and you even that you that you need and you even that you that you need and you even that you want. And you know recognize that we want. And you know recognize that we want. And you know recognize that we want this reality as earth on earth as want this reality as earth on earth as want this reality as earth on earth as it is in heaven. You know, there's it is in heaven. You know, there's it is in heaven. You know, there's components of what Jesus is saying in components of what Jesus is saying in components of what Jesus is saying in that go beyond simply like a wrote that go beyond simply like a wrote that go beyond simply like a wrote prayer in some kind of incantation or prayer in some kind of incantation or prayer in some kind of incantation or you know list of you say the the right you know list of you say the the right you know list of you say the the right things in the right way and you know things in the right way and you know things in the right way and you know then God is going to you know that then God is going to you know that then God is going to you know that that's what ancient Greco Roman paganism that's what ancient Greco Roman paganism that's what ancient Greco Roman paganism was like and prayer even if you aren't was like and prayer even if you aren't was like and prayer even if you aren't religious has a basis in neuroscience religious has a basis in neuroscience religious has a basis in neuroscience that says it's really good for our that says it's really good for our that says it's really good for our well-being. Neuroscience research shows well-being. Neuroscience research shows well-being. Neuroscience research shows that prayer activates brain networks for that prayer activates brain networks for that prayer activates brain networks for attention, emotional regulation, and attention, emotional regulation, and attention, emotional regulation, and social connection while reducing stress. social connection while reducing stress. social connection while reducing stress. And when they do brain ECG scans, they And when they do brain ECG scans, they And when they do brain ECG scans, they find people are more calm and focused find people are more calm and focused find people are more calm and focused when they're in states of prayer, and when they're in states of prayer, and when they're in states of prayer, and they have greater resilience over time, they have greater resilience over time, they have greater resilience over time, which is, I mean, reason enough to have which is, I mean, reason enough to have which is, I mean, reason enough to have some form of active prayer. some form of active prayer. some form of active prayer. >> Regardless of that, I I'm really >> Regardless of that, I I'm really >> Regardless of that, I I'm really interested in how you think about interested in how you think about interested in how you think about everything that's going on with everything that's going on with everything that's going on with technology at the moment. technology at the moment. technology at the moment. >> We're living in a very interesting time. >> We're living in a very interesting time. >> We're living in a very interesting time. It's kind of like we're trying to summon It's kind of like we're trying to summon It's kind of like we're trying to summon the gods ourself. We're we're creating the gods ourself. We're we're creating the gods ourself. We're we're creating this form of intelligence that, you this form of intelligence that, you this form of intelligence that, you know, people are developing a know, people are developing a know, people are developing a relationship with and are speaking to relationship with and are speaking to relationship with and are speaking to every day and we've made it on silicon every day and we've made it on silicon every day and we've made it on silicon chips and using these things called GPUs chips and using these things called GPUs chips and using these things called GPUs and it's called artificial intelligence. and it's called artificial intelligence. and it's called artificial intelligence. Are you concerned Are you concerned Are you concerned >> by the direction of travel in this >> by the direction of travel in this >> by the direction of travel in this direction direction direction >> that we're now seeking guidance and >> that we're now seeking guidance and >> that we're now seeking guidance and comfort and all of these things from AI comfort and all of these things from AI comfort and all of these things from AI instead of this book in front of us? Hm. instead of this book in front of us? Hm. instead of this book in front of us? Hm. I think there's aspects where I have I think there's aspects where I have I think there's aspects where I have concerns. I mean, my my colleagues um concerns. I mean, my my colleagues um concerns. I mean, my my colleagues um Andy Stiger and Steve Kim uh are are Andy Stiger and Steve Kim uh are are Andy Stiger and Steve Kim uh are are more invested in these questions, I more invested in these questions, I more invested in these questions, I think, than I am. My my uh colleague think, than I am. My my uh colleague think, than I am. My my uh colleague Andy, he did his PhD at Aberdine in the Andy, he did his PhD at Aberdine in the Andy, he did his PhD at Aberdine in the question of philosophical anthropology. question of philosophical anthropology. question of philosophical anthropology. What does it mean to be human? And he he What does it mean to be human? And he he What does it mean to be human? And he he investigated a lot into the questions of investigated a lot into the questions of investigated a lot into the questions of things like AI. and my colleague Steve things like AI. and my colleague Steve things like AI. and my colleague Steve is kind of looking into things that is kind of looking into things that is kind of looking into things that relate to transhumanism. So, I mean, relate to transhumanism. So, I mean, relate to transhumanism. So, I mean, these are these are relevant questions these are these are relevant questions these are these are relevant questions to who we are. I'm not convinced that to who we are. I'm not convinced that to who we are. I'm not convinced that the intelligence part of AI outweighs the intelligence part of AI outweighs the intelligence part of AI outweighs the artificial. I don't see AI thinking. the artificial. I don't see AI thinking. the artificial. I don't see AI thinking. I see there being an aspect of the I see there being an aspect of the I see there being an aspect of the coding that AI will regurgitate, but I coding that AI will regurgitate, but I coding that AI will regurgitate, but I don't I'm not convinced that AI will don't I'm not convinced that AI will don't I'm not convinced that AI will ever say become conscious. I think it ever say become conscious. I think it ever say become conscious. I think it will fake the touring test in that it will fake the touring test in that it will fake the touring test in that it will kind of attempt to convince us that will kind of attempt to convince us that will kind of attempt to convince us that it is cogn cognizant of its own it is cogn cognizant of its own it is cogn cognizant of its own existence, but I I don't I don't know if existence, but I I don't I don't know if existence, but I I don't I don't know if that's actually possible. And I think that's actually possible. And I think that's actually possible. And I think there's something about the innateness there's something about the innateness there's something about the innateness of of consciousness of of consciousness of of consciousness that we don't really know, right? We that we don't really know, right? We that we don't really know, right? We don't really know what consciousness is. don't really know what consciousness is. don't really know what consciousness is. There's all sorts of weird explanations There's all sorts of weird explanations There's all sorts of weird explanations of why like is your brain your who you of why like is your brain your who you of why like is your brain your who you are? Not really, right? It's not not we are? Not really, right? It's not not we are? Not really, right? It's not not we don't really have I think entirely don't really have I think entirely don't really have I think entirely sufficient answers to these questions. sufficient answers to these questions. sufficient answers to these questions. But at the exact same time, I think it But at the exact same time, I think it But at the exact same time, I think it makes sense that if we are created in makes sense that if we are created in makes sense that if we are created in God's image, there's an aspect of we God's image, there's an aspect of we God's image, there's an aspect of we want to create in our image. want to create in our image. want to create in our image. >> And there's going to be that outpouring >> And there's going to be that outpouring >> And there's going to be that outpouring of the creation of something new and of the creation of something new and of the creation of something new and amazing and advancing in our amazing and advancing in our amazing and advancing in our understanding and knowledge. This is understanding and knowledge. This is understanding and knowledge. This is kind of sets people up for this whole kind of sets people up for this whole kind of sets people up for this whole simulation theory argument where they simulation theory argument where they simulation theory argument where they say that if you imagine any rate of say that if you imagine any rate of say that if you imagine any rate of improvement on our current reality, improvement on our current reality, improvement on our current reality, >> people are already making virtual >> people are already making virtual >> people are already making virtual reality worlds. If you can go on so many reality worlds. If you can go on so many reality worlds. If you can go on so many different programs now and type in, I different programs now and type in, I different programs now and type in, I want to go to the top of Mount Everest want to go to the top of Mount Everest want to go to the top of Mount Everest and there's a village there. And then and there's a village there. And then and there's a village there. And then you can experience that in three you can experience that in three you can experience that in three dimensions. You can put on a headset and dimensions. You can put on a headset and dimensions. You can put on a headset and go to the top of Mount Everest and go to the top of Mount Everest and go to the top of Mount Everest and there's this rendered village there. M there's this rendered village there. M there's this rendered village there. M >> if you imagine any rate of improvement >> if you imagine any rate of improvement >> if you imagine any rate of improvement even 1% a year in this technology even 1% a year in this technology even 1% a year in this technology >> eventually whether it's in 500 years or >> eventually whether it's in 500 years or >> eventually whether it's in 500 years or 10,000 years you get to a point where 10,000 years you get to a point where 10,000 years you get to a point where it's almost indistinguishable from this it's almost indistinguishable from this it's almost indistinguishable from this experience that mean you are having experience that mean you are having experience that mean you are having today in the real world and so the today in the real world and so the today in the real world and so the simulation theory posits simulation theory posits simulation theory posits >> that again you just think about how long >> that again you just think about how long >> that again you just think about how long technology's been here it's like 50 technology's been here it's like 50 technology's been here it's like 50 years ago we didn't have computers like years ago we didn't have computers like years ago we didn't have computers like this we didn't even have like the iPhone this we didn't even have like the iPhone this we didn't even have like the iPhone or phones that's just 50 years or phones that's just 50 years or phones that's just 50 years >> imagine billions of years and a rate of >> imagine billions of years and a rate of >> imagine billions of years and a rate of improvement you get to something improvement you get to something improvement you get to something indistinguishable from this. And it's indistinguishable from this. And it's indistinguishable from this. And it's conceivable that me and you with conceivable that me and you with conceivable that me and you with computers will run simulations. We'll computers will run simulations. We'll computers will run simulations. We'll make things like The Sims and video make things like The Sims and video make things like The Sims and video games and GTA 6, although that's taking games and GTA 6, although that's taking games and GTA 6, although that's taking forever. And with an improvement of forever. And with an improvement of forever. And with an improvement of technology, at any rate, those worlds technology, at any rate, those worlds technology, at any rate, those worlds will feel real theoretically to the will feel real theoretically to the will feel real theoretically to the characters within them. characters within them. characters within them. >> So, simulation theory posits that >> So, simulation theory posits that >> So, simulation theory posits that actually this is what our lives are. actually this is what our lives are. actually this is what our lives are. There was an a civilization at some There was an a civilization at some There was an a civilization at some point in the cosmic universe that got to point in the cosmic universe that got to point in the cosmic universe that got to that point of technological that point of technological that point of technological sophistication. They ran a bunch of sophistication. They ran a bunch of sophistication. They ran a bunch of different simulations on a computer or different simulations on a computer or different simulations on a computer or whatever their technology was. And this whatever their technology was. And this whatever their technology was. And this is one such world we're living in right is one such world we're living in right is one such world we're living in right now. now. now. >> And that is actually our god. It could >> And that is actually our god. It could >> And that is actually our god. It could be some four-year-old alien that had a be some four-year-old alien that had a be some four-year-old alien that had a laptop, laptop, laptop, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> 10 gazillion years ago. And the big bang >> 10 gazillion years ago. And the big bang >> 10 gazillion years ago. And the big bang was the day that he started the was the day that he started the was the day that he started the simulation. simulation. simulation. >> Yeah. Almost like it was intelligently >> Yeah. Almost like it was intelligently >> Yeah. Almost like it was intelligently designed, right? designed, right? designed, right? >> Yeah. Like actually this is like this is >> Yeah. Like actually this is like this is >> Yeah. Like actually this is like this is I I think there probably is some kind of I I think there probably is some kind of I I think there probably is some kind of god. I just don't know what what it is. god. I just don't know what what it is. god. I just don't know what what it is. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> So, I don't know whether it's the one in >> So, I don't know whether it's the one in >> So, I don't know whether it's the one in in the book that you have in front of me in the book that you have in front of me in the book that you have in front of me here, whether it's the one that they here, whether it's the one that they here, whether it's the one that they believe in the Muslim religion or believe in the Muslim religion or believe in the Muslim religion or whether it's like a 4-year-old kid on whether it's like a 4-year-old kid on whether it's like a 4-year-old kid on his laptop that was messing around in a his laptop that was messing around in a his laptop that was messing around in a technologically sophisticated universe technologically sophisticated universe technologically sophisticated universe 10 billion years ago, 10 billion years ago, 10 billion years ago, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> But I think there's something bigger >> But I think there's something bigger >> But I think there's something bigger than I am, than I am, than I am, >> right? And I think, you know, the the >> right? And I think, you know, the the >> right? And I think, you know, the the simulation theory I don't think really simulation theory I don't think really simulation theory I don't think really solves the issue because it just kind of solves the issue because it just kind of solves the issue because it just kind of punts the can down the road in that it punts the can down the road in that it punts the can down the road in that it still avoids the question of what what still avoids the question of what what still avoids the question of what what is that? How did we get here? And what is that? How did we get here? And what is that? How did we get here? And what is the ultimate explanation for is the ultimate explanation for is the ultimate explanation for everything? So probabilistically is in everything? So probabilistically is in everything? So probabilistically is in the world around us in what we see with the world around us in what we see with the world around us in what we see with like our relational characteristics and like our relational characteristics and like our relational characteristics and everything is it possible that we live everything is it possible that we live everything is it possible that we live in a simulation? I think it yes it is. I in a simulation? I think it yes it is. I in a simulation? I think it yes it is. I think probabilistically though with how think probabilistically though with how think probabilistically though with how the description of creation and the the description of creation and the the description of creation and the human condition and what we see within human condition and what we see within human condition and what we see within history. I think personally the God of history. I think personally the God of history. I think personally the God of the Bible is the most reasonable the Bible is the most reasonable the Bible is the most reasonable explanation especially when we're explanation especially when we're explanation especially when we're comparing it to other religious comparing it to other religious comparing it to other religious worldviews. I think the simulation worldviews. I think the simulation worldviews. I think the simulation theory is an interesting one or you know theory is an interesting one or you know theory is an interesting one or you know the string theory multiple universes. I the string theory multiple universes. I the string theory multiple universes. I just think that those are almost like just think that those are almost like just think that those are almost like we're walking around the question. we're we're walking around the question. we're we're walking around the question. we're circling around the question and it's circling around the question and it's circling around the question and it's not actually answering. We still need a not actually answering. We still need a not actually answering. We still need a god. god. god. >> Yeah. And then, you know, even in the >> Yeah. And then, you know, even in the >> Yeah. And then, you know, even in the example I gave with a four-year-old example I gave with a four-year-old example I gave with a four-year-old messing around in his laptop 10 billion messing around in his laptop 10 billion messing around in his laptop 10 billion years ago in a technologically advanced years ago in a technologically advanced years ago in a technologically advanced civilization. I then my brain a few civilization. I then my brain a few civilization. I then my brain a few seconds later asked, well, what was the seconds later asked, well, what was the seconds later asked, well, what was the point of his life? point of his life? point of his life? >> Yeah. And who created him? >> Yeah. And who created him? >> Yeah. And who created him? >> And I could say the same about God, I >> And I could say the same about God, I >> And I could say the same about God, I guess, like the God of the Christian guess, like the God of the Christian guess, like the God of the Christian Bible. Like who why is this God? Like Bible. Like who why is this God? Like Bible. Like who why is this God? Like who created this God? Did someone create who created this God? Did someone create who created this God? Did someone create this God or is this just has he always this God or is this just has he always this God or is this just has he always been there? been there? been there? >> Right? I mean, philosophically, it's a >> Right? I mean, philosophically, it's a >> Right? I mean, philosophically, it's a category error because all things that category error because all things that category error because all things that are have a beginning have a creator. And are have a beginning have a creator. And are have a beginning have a creator. And philosophically, the God of the Bible is philosophically, the God of the Bible is philosophically, the God of the Bible is an entity that ontologically didn't have an entity that ontologically didn't have an entity that ontologically didn't have a beginning. So, if we're talking about a beginning. So, if we're talking about a beginning. So, if we're talking about an unmoved mover, right, in the kind of an unmoved mover, right, in the kind of an unmoved mover, right, in the kind of arisatilian arisatilian arisatilian categories of of philosophy, God didn't categories of of philosophy, God didn't categories of of philosophy, God didn't have a creator because God is the author have a creator because God is the author have a creator because God is the author of creation. of creation. of creation. >> Okay? It's kind of like asking what does >> Okay? It's kind of like asking what does >> Okay? It's kind of like asking what does blue smell like? blue smell like? blue smell like? >> And God I should think of as like a you >> And God I should think of as like a you >> And God I should think of as like a you know in the Bible in these well not in know in the Bible in these well not in know in the Bible in these well not in the Bible but in depictions of God it's the Bible but in depictions of God it's the Bible but in depictions of God it's like a guy with a beard. like a guy with a beard. like a guy with a beard. >> Yeah. No. >> Yeah. No. >> Yeah. No. >> Or it's like some like mystical force >> Or it's like some like mystical force >> Or it's like some like mystical force that's kind of like a a white light, that's kind of like a a white light, that's kind of like a a white light, >> right? No. I I think I mean those are >> right? No. I I think I mean those are >> right? No. I I think I mean those are attempts probably inadequately to attempts probably inadequately to attempts probably inadequately to express aspects of how we would visually express aspects of how we would visually express aspects of how we would visually communicate who God is. I think that communicate who God is. I think that communicate who God is. I think that probably misses the mark more than it probably misses the mark more than it probably misses the mark more than it actually gets at what you know what and actually gets at what you know what and actually gets at what you know what and who God is. I don't know if there's a who God is. I don't know if there's a who God is. I don't know if there's a there's a proper way that could give a there's a proper way that could give a there's a proper way that could give a physical attribution description of God physical attribution description of God physical attribution description of God other than Jesus who is God incarnate, other than Jesus who is God incarnate, other than Jesus who is God incarnate, right? Could you think of a a more right? Could you think of a a more right? Could you think of a a more powerful a more amazing example of of a powerful a more amazing example of of a powerful a more amazing example of of a God than one who actually enters into God than one who actually enters into God than one who actually enters into his creation? his creation? his creation? I don't know. My fiance says that God is I don't know. My fiance says that God is I don't know. My fiance says that God is love. love. love. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> she says that a lot. My fiance tends to >> she says that a lot. My fiance tends to >> she says that a lot. My fiance tends to be right as well. be right as well. be right as well. >> Nice. >> Nice. >> Nice. >> So, I I tend to in the first time she >> So, I I tend to in the first time she >> So, I I tend to in the first time she says something that I don't believe, I says something that I don't believe, I says something that I don't believe, I tend to assume it's not true for a tend to assume it's not true for a tend to assume it's not true for a while, but then it tends to be proven to while, but then it tends to be proven to while, but then it tends to be proven to be true within a year. So, when she said be true within a year. So, when she said be true within a year. So, when she said to me that God is love, I really thought to me that God is love, I really thought to me that God is love, I really thought deeply about it. I thought maybe she's deeply about it. I thought maybe she's deeply about it. I thought maybe she's right. Maybe love is God. right. Maybe love is God. right. Maybe love is God. >> I mean, that's from the Bible. God is >> I mean, that's from the Bible. God is >> I mean, that's from the Bible. God is love. The thing grammatically that's love. The thing grammatically that's love. The thing grammatically that's interesting about that when John writes interesting about that when John writes interesting about that when John writes that in his epistle is grammatically in that in his epistle is grammatically in that in his epistle is grammatically in the Greek it's phrased in a way that God the Greek it's phrased in a way that God the Greek it's phrased in a way that God is love but love is not God right so you is love but love is not God right so you is love but love is not God right so you can't deify the can't deify the can't deify the what love is what love is what love is when I you know when you love your when I you know when you love your when I you know when you love your fiance that isn't God that's like an fiance that isn't God that's like an fiance that isn't God that's like an inefficient inefficient inefficient description of what we know God to be so description of what we know God to be so description of what we know God to be so God is love but love is not God. And in God is love but love is not God. And in God is love but love is not God. And in that sense, going back to what I was that sense, going back to what I was that sense, going back to what I was saying said a few times now, you know saying said a few times now, you know saying said a few times now, you know what what the Bible is saying when it what what the Bible is saying when it what what the Bible is saying when it says God is love is that that is the says God is love is that that is the says God is love is that that is the ultimate character of who God is in that ultimate character of who God is in that ultimate character of who God is in that love is this highest value. It is that love is this highest value. It is that love is this highest value. It is that which we you know hold as the example which we you know hold as the example which we you know hold as the example ethic of what we want. We want to be ethic of what we want. We want to be ethic of what we want. We want to be loved, right? To be loved and not known loved, right? To be loved and not known loved, right? To be loved and not known is is is very insufficient. very insufficient. very insufficient. And to be known but not loved is what we And to be known but not loved is what we And to be known but not loved is what we all fear. But I think what we find in all fear. But I think what we find in all fear. But I think what we find in the Bible is a God who both loves and the Bible is a God who both loves and the Bible is a God who both loves and knows us. And I think that's where the knows us. And I think that's where the knows us. And I think that's where the God who is love, who creates us and God who is love, who creates us and God who is love, who creates us and calls us to love him with all of our calls us to love him with all of our calls us to love him with all of our soul, all of our mind, all of our soul, all of our mind, all of our soul, all of our mind, all of our strength, that properly kind of fulfills strength, that properly kind of fulfills strength, that properly kind of fulfills what I think we mean when we say God is what I think we mean when we say God is what I think we mean when we say God is love. love. love. >> There is a a deep crisis of meaning in >> There is a a deep crisis of meaning in >> There is a a deep crisis of meaning in the world, especially in you know the the world, especially in you know the the world, especially in you know the western world. Three in five American western world. Three in five American western world. Three in five American adults between 18 and 25 years old said adults between 18 and 25 years old said adults between 18 and 25 years old said that their life lacked meaning and that their life lacked meaning and that their life lacked meaning and purpose with 50% of the same group purpose with 50% of the same group purpose with 50% of the same group saying their poor mental health was saying their poor mental health was saying their poor mental health was linked to not knowing what to do with my linked to not knowing what to do with my linked to not knowing what to do with my life. life. life. >> And a lack of purpose is significantly >> And a lack of purpose is significantly >> And a lack of purpose is significantly associated with many of the mental associated with many of the mental associated with many of the mental health illnesses like depression and health illnesses like depression and health illnesses like depression and anxiety. And as of April 2025, the anxiety. And as of April 2025, the anxiety. And as of April 2025, the overall prevalence of depression in US overall prevalence of depression in US overall prevalence of depression in US teenagers and adults has increased by teenagers and adults has increased by teenagers and adults has increased by 60% over the last decade according to 60% over the last decade according to 60% over the last decade according to the C CDC. And tragically, globally, the C CDC. And tragically, globally, the C CDC. And tragically, globally, more than almost a million people die more than almost a million people die more than almost a million people die due to suicide every year. And it's the due to suicide every year. And it's the due to suicide every year. And it's the third leading cause of death among 15 to third leading cause of death among 15 to third leading cause of death among 15 to 29 year olds according to the World 29 year olds according to the World 29 year olds according to the World Health Organization. Health Organization. Health Organization. What are we getting wrong? What are we getting wrong? What are we getting wrong? I think we're looking for our purpose I think we're looking for our purpose I think we're looking for our purpose and our meaning and things that are and our meaning and things that are and our meaning and things that are ultimately not going to give the value ultimately not going to give the value ultimately not going to give the value that those things actually require. that those things actually require. that those things actually require. So it's not a matter of if we worship So it's not a matter of if we worship So it's not a matter of if we worship it's a matter of what we worship and it's a matter of what we worship and it's a matter of what we worship and worship if worship is, you know, giving worship if worship is, you know, giving worship if worship is, you know, giving our all to something. our all to something. our all to something. I think there's a lot of things within I think there's a lot of things within I think there's a lot of things within society that are going to tell us that society that are going to tell us that society that are going to tell us that our identity is going to be fulfilled in our identity is going to be fulfilled in our identity is going to be fulfilled in money or it's going to be fulfilled in money or it's going to be fulfilled in money or it's going to be fulfilled in relationships or accolades or all of relationships or accolades or all of relationships or accolades or all of these aspects are ultimately going to these aspects are ultimately going to these aspects are ultimately going to fall short in giving us actual purpose fall short in giving us actual purpose fall short in giving us actual purpose and meaning and if they're not grounded and meaning and if they're not grounded and meaning and if they're not grounded in actually giving us value. Right? Your in actually giving us value. Right? Your in actually giving us value. Right? Your friend is a as far as I understand is a friend is a as far as I understand is a friend is a as far as I understand is a good example of that. Right? You know, good example of that. Right? You know, good example of that. Right? You know, we can achieve all of these things. You we can achieve all of these things. You we can achieve all of these things. You hear athletes and actors and famous hear athletes and actors and famous hear athletes and actors and famous people talk about all the wealth, all people talk about all the wealth, all people talk about all the wealth, all the like celebrity status they could the like celebrity status they could the like celebrity status they could possibly desire and being completely possibly desire and being completely possibly desire and being completely empty, being completely empty, being completely empty, being completely fulfilled. fulfilled. fulfilled. And I think that's because And I think that's because And I think that's because we're we're chasing after we're we're chasing after we're we're chasing after things that aren't going to give us what things that aren't going to give us what things that aren't going to give us what we actually need, right? They're we actually need, right? They're we actually need, right? They're faximiles and cheap reproductions of faximiles and cheap reproductions of faximiles and cheap reproductions of what actually can give give us meaning what actually can give give us meaning what actually can give give us meaning and purpose. And that's because we are and purpose. And that's because we are and purpose. And that's because we are created to be in relationship with our created to be in relationship with our created to be in relationship with our God. And that is where we will find our God. And that is where we will find our God. And that is where we will find our true identity. That's what's going to true identity. That's what's going to true identity. That's what's going to give us the motivation to actually get give us the motivation to actually get give us the motivation to actually get up in the morning like your friend you up in the morning like your friend you up in the morning like your friend you saying you know you couldn't get up in saying you know you couldn't get up in saying you know you couldn't get up in the morning the morning the morning he finds not just a motivational value he finds not just a motivational value he finds not just a motivational value in the Christian faith he finds actually in the Christian faith he finds actually in the Christian faith he finds actually meaning and purpose in the Christian meaning and purpose in the Christian meaning and purpose in the Christian faith that getting up in the morning has faith that getting up in the morning has faith that getting up in the morning has a purpose that goes beyond the here and a purpose that goes beyond the here and a purpose that goes beyond the here and the now and that can affect all of the the now and that can affect all of the the now and that can affect all of the people around him and now he can pursue people around him and now he can pursue people around him and now he can pursue his entrepreneurial activities or his his entrepreneurial activities or his his entrepreneurial activities or his relationships or even his finances for relationships or even his finances for relationships or even his finances for the glory of God. And then that gives it the glory of God. And then that gives it the glory of God. And then that gives it an ontological meaning that goes beyond an ontological meaning that goes beyond an ontological meaning that goes beyond the simple basics of kind of what the simple basics of kind of what the simple basics of kind of what secular materialism has to offer. secular materialism has to offer. secular materialism has to offer. >> Young men in particular are struggling >> Young men in particular are struggling >> Young men in particular are struggling in their own unique ways. in their own unique ways. in their own unique ways. >> And is is that in part in your view >> And is is that in part in your view >> And is is that in part in your view because they are worshiping the wrong because they are worshiping the wrong because they are worshiping the wrong role models in life? role models in life? role models in life? >> I think it could be. I think men often >> I think it could be. I think men often >> I think it could be. I think men often find we find our identity in the things find we find our identity in the things find we find our identity in the things that we do right well we we hear about that we do right well we we hear about that we do right well we we hear about this in that unfortunately we've bought this in that unfortunately we've bought this in that unfortunately we've bought the lie that we are the sum of our the lie that we are the sum of our the lie that we are the sum of our actions this is why when people lose actions this is why when people lose actions this is why when people lose their jobs when they get let go of their their jobs when they get let go of their their jobs when they get let go of their careers they have identity crisises careers they have identity crisises careers they have identity crisises because if we believe that we are the because if we believe that we are the because if we believe that we are the sum of our actions we can put a lot of sum of our actions we can put a lot of sum of our actions we can put a lot of stock in something that is ultimately stock in something that is ultimately stock in something that is ultimately going to lead us like empty um same going to lead us like empty um same going to lead us like empty um same thing with relationships Right? You thing with relationships Right? You thing with relationships Right? You watch any romcom, what is it almost watch any romcom, what is it almost watch any romcom, what is it almost always about? Lonely guy, lonely girl. always about? Lonely guy, lonely girl. always about? Lonely guy, lonely girl. They meet each other. They fall in love. They meet each other. They fall in love. They meet each other. They fall in love. At the end, everything works out. And At the end, everything works out. And At the end, everything works out. And now, now their identity is fulfilled. now, now their identity is fulfilled. now, now their identity is fulfilled. Well, I mean, all you have to do is to Well, I mean, all you have to do is to Well, I mean, all you have to do is to get married to know that that's not get married to know that that's not get married to know that that's not going to fulfill every desire and need going to fulfill every desire and need going to fulfill every desire and need you have, right? I love my wife. I love you have, right? I love my wife. I love you have, right? I love my wife. I love my marriage. It's one of the best things my marriage. It's one of the best things my marriage. It's one of the best things that I've ever done. But if I put all of that I've ever done. But if I put all of that I've ever done. But if I put all of my eggs in that basket, my eggs in that basket, my eggs in that basket, it it's it could very well and almost it it's it could very well and almost it it's it could very well and almost certainly will lead me astray, certainly will lead me astray, certainly will lead me astray, especially if that falls apart, especially if that falls apart, especially if that falls apart, especially when there are times of especially when there are times of especially when there are times of hardship and struggle. So, I think you hardship and struggle. So, I think you hardship and struggle. So, I think you are more than the sum of your actions are more than the sum of your actions are more than the sum of your actions because you have value that goes beyond because you have value that goes beyond because you have value that goes beyond that. And it's actually living out that that. And it's actually living out that that. And it's actually living out that value that can give you the meaning and value that can give you the meaning and value that can give you the meaning and the purpose you're finding. But men in the purpose you're finding. But men in the purpose you're finding. But men in particular, we find value in what we do. particular, we find value in what we do. particular, we find value in what we do. I think women although I don't want to I think women although I don't want to I think women although I don't want to speak you know too broadly I think speak you know too broadly I think speak you know too broadly I think speaking in generalities speaking in generalities speaking in generalities women find a lot of identity in women find a lot of identity in women find a lot of identity in relational values relational values relational values in the relationships that they have with in the relationships that they have with in the relationships that they have with their friends or their significant their friends or their significant their friends or their significant others. Men often find others. Men often find others. Men often find value in like what they're able to value in like what they're able to value in like what they're able to contribute to physically. contribute to physically. contribute to physically. And so And so And so especially in a world where especially in a world where especially in a world where you know economic crisis is a thing or you know economic crisis is a thing or you know economic crisis is a thing or work complications with with things like work complications with with things like work complications with with things like technology removing a lot of technology removing a lot of technology removing a lot of occupations. I I think that can be a gen occupations. I I think that can be a gen occupations. I I think that can be a gen genuine hardship. genuine hardship. genuine hardship. >> Yeah. I was just looking at the some >> Yeah. I was just looking at the some >> Yeah. I was just looking at the some research on PubMed and it says exactly research on PubMed and it says exactly research on PubMed and it says exactly that. says, "In a recent qualitative that. says, "In a recent qualitative that. says, "In a recent qualitative analysis in the United States of suicide analysis in the United States of suicide analysis in the United States of suicide notes, majority male sample, the authors notes, majority male sample, the authors notes, majority male sample, the authors identified themes that differed by identified themes that differed by identified themes that differed by gender, yeah, such as men more often gender, yeah, such as men more often gender, yeah, such as men more often referring to financial hardship, etc., referring to financial hardship, etc., referring to financial hardship, etc., >> which can imply feelings of failure and >> which can imply feelings of failure and >> which can imply feelings of failure and worthlessness tied to traditional roles. worthlessness tied to traditional roles. worthlessness tied to traditional roles. In contrast, women's notes were more In contrast, women's notes were more In contrast, women's notes were more about lowered selfworth and about lowered selfworth and about lowered selfworth and interpersonal relationships." interpersonal relationships." interpersonal relationships." >> Mhm. So if that does hold and and we're >> Mhm. So if that does hold and and we're >> Mhm. So if that does hold and and we're implying there that sometimes it's to do implying there that sometimes it's to do implying there that sometimes it's to do with a feeling of worthlessness for men, with a feeling of worthlessness for men, with a feeling of worthlessness for men, >> are you saying that Christianity can >> are you saying that Christianity can >> are you saying that Christianity can provide something that is an antidote to provide something that is an antidote to provide something that is an antidote to that feeling? that feeling? that feeling? >> I think not only can it provide an >> I think not only can it provide an >> I think not only can it provide an antidote, it can provide the antidote. antidote, it can provide the antidote. antidote, it can provide the antidote. >> What would you say to anyone that's >> What would you say to anyone that's >> What would you say to anyone that's listening right now that feels a little listening right now that feels a little listening right now that feels a little bit lost in their life? I would say that bit lost in their life? I would say that bit lost in their life? I would say that you have purpose and you have meaning you have purpose and you have meaning you have purpose and you have meaning more than what society tells you more than what society tells you more than what society tells you is going to give you that meaning and is going to give you that meaning and is going to give you that meaning and purpose and that there's a God who loves purpose and that there's a God who loves purpose and that there's a God who loves you and he loves you so much that he you and he loves you so much that he you and he loves you so much that he stepped out of eternity and into stepped out of eternity and into stepped out of eternity and into humanity and he lived the perfect life humanity and he lived the perfect life humanity and he lived the perfect life that you couldn't in order to establish that you couldn't in order to establish that you couldn't in order to establish and create the union of the and create the union of the and create the union of the relationship. ship with God that you're relationship. ship with God that you're relationship. ship with God that you're actually seeking. actually seeking. actually seeking. >> And what would you tell them step one >> And what would you tell them step one >> And what would you tell them step one would be to go in that direction? would be to go in that direction? would be to go in that direction? >> Well, I would say, you know, push into >> Well, I would say, you know, push into >> Well, I would say, you know, push into something like read the Bible. I would something like read the Bible. I would something like read the Bible. I would say open the Gospel of Matthew, open the say open the Gospel of Matthew, open the say open the Gospel of Matthew, open the Gospel of John and and start reading and Gospel of John and and start reading and Gospel of John and and start reading and find out who this Jesus guy is. You find out who this Jesus guy is. You find out who this Jesus guy is. You know, investigate that question, why know, investigate that question, why know, investigate that question, why that is significant, why that matters. that is significant, why that matters. that is significant, why that matters. Because the person and character of Because the person and character of Because the person and character of Jesus goes beyond simply Jesus goes beyond simply Jesus goes beyond simply an historical character. I think Jesus an historical character. I think Jesus an historical character. I think Jesus was a genuine historical character. He's was a genuine historical character. He's was a genuine historical character. He's no less than that. But he's also so much no less than that. But he's also so much no less than that. But he's also so much more than that. And in discovering who more than that. And in discovering who more than that. And in discovering who he is in relation to who you are, that's he is in relation to who you are, that's he is in relation to who you are, that's going to change your life. going to change your life. going to change your life. >> Are you noticing that people are asking >> Are you noticing that people are asking >> Are you noticing that people are asking you you you certain questions about Christianity or certain questions about Christianity or certain questions about Christianity or religion or any of the adjacent subjects religion or any of the adjacent subjects religion or any of the adjacent subjects more now than they were 10 years ago? more now than they were 10 years ago? more now than they were 10 years ago? like are there certain themes or topics like are there certain themes or topics like are there certain themes or topics that are more front of mind for people that are more front of mind for people that are more front of mind for people these days? these days? these days? >> Yeah, I think we've we've gone through a >> Yeah, I think we've we've gone through a >> Yeah, I think we've we've gone through a shift where when I kind of started in shift where when I kind of started in shift where when I kind of started in this endeavor of what I'm doing now, this endeavor of what I'm doing now, this endeavor of what I'm doing now, this kind of crescendoed in the last uh this kind of crescendoed in the last uh this kind of crescendoed in the last uh year and a bit. Um when I started out, I year and a bit. Um when I started out, I year and a bit. Um when I started out, I think people are asking a lot more is think people are asking a lot more is think people are asking a lot more is God real and is this true? And I think God real and is this true? And I think God real and is this true? And I think now people are asking is God good? And I now people are asking is God good? And I now people are asking is God good? And I think it's because it's part and parcel think it's because it's part and parcel think it's because it's part and parcel to this meaning crisis thing. I also to this meaning crisis thing. I also to this meaning crisis thing. I also think that there have been some major think that there have been some major think that there have been some major moral issues. I mean the whole Epstein moral issues. I mean the whole Epstein moral issues. I mean the whole Epstein thing right now I think is a testament thing right now I think is a testament thing right now I think is a testament to that. We are seeing examples of true to that. We are seeing examples of true to that. We are seeing examples of true evil and I think that bothers people and evil and I think that bothers people and evil and I think that bothers people and in a world where we can rationalize in a world where we can rationalize in a world where we can rationalize subjectivizing evil we understand that subjectivizing evil we understand that subjectivizing evil we understand that is heinous and if that is evil with a is heinous and if that is evil with a is heinous and if that is evil with a capital E capital E capital E where's the G the good with a capital G? where's the G the good with a capital G? where's the G the good with a capital G? you know, C. Lewis, who I've quoted a you know, C. Lewis, who I've quoted a you know, C. Lewis, who I've quoted a few times, he said uh in his um the few times, he said uh in his um the few times, he said uh in his um the problem of pain and suffering in that problem of pain and suffering in that problem of pain and suffering in that book that he wrote that uh one of his book that he wrote that uh one of his book that he wrote that uh one of his objections to God was that there was objections to God was that there was objections to God was that there was there was so much evil and chaos in this there was so much evil and chaos in this there was so much evil and chaos in this world. He said, "But what was I world. He said, "But what was I world. He said, "But what was I comparing that to? A man does not call a comparing that to? A man does not call a comparing that to? A man does not call a line crooked unless he knows what a line crooked unless he knows what a line crooked unless he knows what a straight line looks like." Right? The straight line looks like." Right? The straight line looks like." Right? The reason you understand that there's rot reason you understand that there's rot reason you understand that there's rot is because you understand what something is because you understand what something is because you understand what something that's healthy is. And so there's an that's healthy is. And so there's an that's healthy is. And so there's an objective objective objective standard that needs to be weighed by standard that needs to be weighed by standard that needs to be weighed by these things. And I think more than these things. And I think more than these things. And I think more than ever, we're seeing things that really ever, we're seeing things that really ever, we're seeing things that really speak to speak to speak to the justice questions in terms of the the justice questions in terms of the the justice questions in terms of the meaning questions. And that meaning questions. And that meaning questions. And that has really interested me as someone who has really interested me as someone who has really interested me as someone who is I'm a historian, right? So I'm is I'm a historian, right? So I'm is I'm a historian, right? So I'm interested in the questions about I do interested in the questions about I do interested in the questions about I do things like read Greek and Coptic most things like read Greek and Coptic most things like read Greek and Coptic most of the time, right? But I've been of the time, right? But I've been of the time, right? But I've been challenged to think more about the challenged to think more about the challenged to think more about the philosophical questions because I think philosophical questions because I think philosophical questions because I think we live in an age where I'm really we live in an age where I'm really we live in an age where I'm really encouraged by people looking at encouraged by people looking at encouraged by people looking at injustice. There's a lump in our throat injustice. There's a lump in our throat injustice. There's a lump in our throat and I think there's a lump in our throat and I think there's a lump in our throat and I think there's a lump in our throat because Jesus put it there. because Jesus put it there. because Jesus put it there. >> I think um AI is going to have a big >> I think um AI is going to have a big >> I think um AI is going to have a big impact on your work. impact on your work. impact on your work. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And in ways that might not be super >> And in ways that might not be super >> And in ways that might not be super obvious. I think one of the ways is that obvious. I think one of the ways is that obvious. I think one of the ways is that if all these CEOs are true when they say if all these CEOs are true when they say if all these CEOs are true when they say that AI is going to cause massive job that AI is going to cause massive job that AI is going to cause massive job displacement and even the CEOs that are displacement and even the CEOs that are displacement and even the CEOs that are building the technology have sat here building the technology have sat here building the technology have sat here and told me that there's going to be and told me that there's going to be and told me that there's going to be massive job displacement there's going massive job displacement there's going massive job displacement there's going to be a crisis of meaning people get to be a crisis of meaning people get to be a crisis of meaning people get huge amount of work from the things that huge amount of work from the things that huge amount of work from the things that they do in their lives and they're not they do in their lives and they're not they do in their lives and they're not going to be able to do those things in going to be able to do those things in going to be able to do those things in the same way necessarily and about 60% the same way necessarily and about 60% the same way necessarily and about 60% of Americans say they're they're worried of Americans say they're they're worried of Americans say they're they're worried that AI will take away the thing that that AI will take away the thing that that AI will take away the thing that gives them their meaning. Well, I think gives them their meaning. Well, I think gives them their meaning. Well, I think we're just at the footsteps of the mean we're just at the footsteps of the mean we're just at the footsteps of the mean crisis of meaning in this regard. crisis of meaning in this regard. crisis of meaning in this regard. >> Yeah. And that's going to mean that a >> Yeah. And that's going to mean that a >> Yeah. And that's going to mean that a lot of people, you know, are going to lot of people, you know, are going to lot of people, you know, are going to struggle a lot. And that concerns me. struggle a lot. And that concerns me. struggle a lot. And that concerns me. >> I mean, I think that's what I'm more >> I mean, I think that's what I'm more >> I mean, I think that's what I'm more worried about with AI. I'm not worried worried about with AI. I'm not worried worried about with AI. I'm not worried about AI taking over the world. I I'm about AI taking over the world. I I'm about AI taking over the world. I I'm not worried about, you know, um AI not worried about, you know, um AI not worried about, you know, um AI replacing us or something like that. Uh replacing us or something like that. Uh replacing us or something like that. Uh if I'm worried about AI, it's that it's if I'm worried about AI, it's that it's if I'm worried about AI, it's that it's the the pain and suffering that it can the the pain and suffering that it can the the pain and suffering that it can cause for people who have bought into cause for people who have bought into cause for people who have bought into the lie that the sum of their identity the lie that the sum of their identity the lie that the sum of their identity is in what they can contribute and do is in what they can contribute and do is in what they can contribute and do and how the Christian worldview speaks and how the Christian worldview speaks and how the Christian worldview speaks into that. How can I think Christianly into that. How can I think Christianly into that. How can I think Christianly about a society where there could very about a society where there could very about a society where there could very well be well be well be mass identity crises because of mass identity crises because of mass identity crises because of unemployment or because you know the unemployment or because you know the unemployment or because you know the years ago we were telling truck drivers years ago we were telling truck drivers years ago we were telling truck drivers learn to code. learn to code. learn to code. >> Well now coders are being replaced by AI >> Well now coders are being replaced by AI >> Well now coders are being replaced by AI systems right AI can code better than systems right AI can code better than systems right AI can code better than the coders. So the coders. So the coders. So >> Spotify said yesterday they none of >> Spotify said yesterday they none of >> Spotify said yesterday they none of their engineers have written a line of their engineers have written a line of their engineers have written a line of code since December. And I thought, code since December. And I thought, code since December. And I thought, "Wow, hell." Like that's Yeah. "Wow, hell." Like that's Yeah. "Wow, hell." Like that's Yeah. >> And my car drives itself here in uh in >> And my car drives itself here in uh in >> And my car drives itself here in uh in America. I sat here with the other day America. I sat here with the other day America. I sat here with the other day with the CEO of Uber and he said to me, with the CEO of Uber and he said to me, with the CEO of Uber and he said to me, "They have 9 million drivers careers and "They have 9 million drivers careers and "They have 9 million drivers careers and within x number of years they will have within x number of years they will have within x number of years they will have none." none." none." >> He said the unique thing is the the >> He said the unique thing is the the >> He said the unique thing is the the speed of the the change is going to speed of the the change is going to speed of the the change is going to cause the problems because we had the cause the problems because we had the cause the problems because we had the industrial revolution. We had time to industrial revolution. We had time to industrial revolution. We had time to you know transfer to other lines of you know transfer to other lines of you know transfer to other lines of employment etc. But the speed in which employment etc. But the speed in which employment etc. But the speed in which there's going to be a displacement is um there's going to be a displacement is um there's going to be a displacement is um is going to cause the issues. And I is going to cause the issues. And I is going to cause the issues. And I wonder what's going to happen. I mean, a wonder what's going to happen. I mean, a wonder what's going to happen. I mean, a lot of people are, you know, they're lot of people are, you know, they're lot of people are, you know, they're going to be in search of meaning. And I going to be in search of meaning. And I going to be in search of meaning. And I guess that'll that will push some people guess that'll that will push some people guess that'll that will push some people towards Christianity and other towards Christianity and other towards Christianity and other religions, but not everybody. Cuz you religions, but not everybody. Cuz you religions, but not everybody. Cuz you said, you know, as you say, when our said, you know, as you say, when our said, you know, as you say, when our identities are pulled away from us in identities are pulled away from us in identities are pulled away from us in such a way, some people turn to the such a way, some people turn to the such a way, some people turn to the bottle, bottle, bottle, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Or um you know, causes mental health >> Or um you know, causes mental health >> Or um you know, causes mental health situations. situations. situations. I mean, humanity has a very unique knack I mean, humanity has a very unique knack I mean, humanity has a very unique knack to pivot to pivot to pivot >> and figure things out. Now, is there >> and figure things out. Now, is there >> and figure things out. Now, is there going to be uh you know a a l period in going to be uh you know a a l period in going to be uh you know a a l period in between when that job crisis happens? between when that job crisis happens? between when that job crisis happens? Maybe. But, uh I think I think humanity Maybe. But, uh I think I think humanity Maybe. But, uh I think I think humanity will figure things out. But I just I will figure things out. But I just I will figure things out. But I just I just don't know if that will be before just don't know if that will be before just don't know if that will be before all of you know it hits the fan. all of you know it hits the fan. all of you know it hits the fan. >> What was the first domino that fell for >> What was the first domino that fell for >> What was the first domino that fell for you that made you go on this this you that made you go on this this you that made you go on this this journey of becoming an is it the term journey of becoming an is it the term journey of becoming an is it the term Christian apologist? Christian apologist? Christian apologist? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Becoming a what does that even mean? >> Becoming a what does that even mean? >> Becoming a what does that even mean? Christian apologist. Christian apologist. Christian apologist. >> So I mentioned 1 Peter 3:15 right? But >> So I mentioned 1 Peter 3:15 right? But >> So I mentioned 1 Peter 3:15 right? But in your heart Christ is Lord always be in your heart Christ is Lord always be in your heart Christ is Lord always be prepared to give an answer. So that is prepared to give an answer. So that is prepared to give an answer. So that is that apologia. So we take the Greek word that apologia. So we take the Greek word that apologia. So we take the Greek word apologia and we stick an English suffix apologia and we stick an English suffix apologia and we stick an English suffix on the end and we have this field to on the end and we have this field to on the end and we have this field to study this discipline apologetics. study this discipline apologetics. study this discipline apologetics. >> What does that mean? You're you're >> What does that mean? You're you're >> What does that mean? You're you're explaining the Bible, explaining the Bible, explaining the Bible, >> giving reasons. Yeah. Giving answers. So >> giving reasons. Yeah. Giving answers. So >> giving reasons. Yeah. Giving answers. So apologetics is as complicated as uh apologetics is as complicated as uh apologetics is as complicated as uh arguments philosophically and arguments philosophically and arguments philosophically and scientifically for the existence of God scientifically for the existence of God scientifically for the existence of God and the historical reliability of the and the historical reliability of the and the historical reliability of the Bible. And as simple as if someone asked Bible. And as simple as if someone asked Bible. And as simple as if someone asked me why Jesus, that's an apologetic me why Jesus, that's an apologetic me why Jesus, that's an apologetic question in so far as it's giving an question in so far as it's giving an question in so far as it's giving an answer. answer. answer. >> I was looking at some of these photos of >> I was looking at some of these photos of >> I was looking at some of these photos of you as a young man. I wondered how much you as a young man. I wondered how much you as a young man. I wondered how much the situation in these photos had an the situation in these photos had an the situation in these photos had an impact on who you came to be and what impact on who you came to be and what impact on who you came to be and what you came to believe. I'll put these you came to believe. I'll put these you came to believe. I'll put these photos on the screen for anybody. photos on the screen for anybody. photos on the screen for anybody. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But um this is a a young boy in a >> But um this is a a young boy in a >> But um this is a a young boy in a wheelchair. wheelchair. wheelchair. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And in a hospital bed that looks to be >> And in a hospital bed that looks to be >> And in a hospital bed that looks to be paralyzed. paralyzed. paralyzed. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yeah. When I was 11 years old, I was >> Yeah. When I was 11 years old, I was >> Yeah. When I was 11 years old, I was diagnosed with a rare neurological diagnosed with a rare neurological diagnosed with a rare neurological condition that left me paralyzed from condition that left me paralyzed from condition that left me paralyzed from the waist down. the waist down. the waist down. >> So you at 10, you were fine. You were >> So you at 10, you were fine. You were >> So you at 10, you were fine. You were normal. normal. normal. >> Yeah. And at 11, suddenly you were >> Yeah. And at 11, suddenly you were >> Yeah. And at 11, suddenly you were paralyzed from the waist down. paralyzed from the waist down. paralyzed from the waist down. >> Yes. So I had the flu and my body's >> Yes. So I had the flu and my body's >> Yes. So I had the flu and my body's immune system instead of attacking the immune system instead of attacking the immune system instead of attacking the flu attacked the nerve endings at the flu attacked the nerve endings at the flu attacked the nerve endings at the base of my spinal cord. So the myelin base of my spinal cord. So the myelin base of my spinal cord. So the myelin sheath and caused inflammation cutting sheath and caused inflammation cutting sheath and caused inflammation cutting off the communication from my brain to off the communication from my brain to off the communication from my brain to my legs. my legs. my legs. >> And a lot of people that get that >> And a lot of people that get that >> And a lot of people that get that disease never walk again. disease never walk again. disease never walk again. >> It's complicated. Uh so the so is it >> It's complicated. Uh so the so is it >> It's complicated. Uh so the so is it called acute transverse myelitis? called acute transverse myelitis? called acute transverse myelitis? Although I've been told recently that Although I've been told recently that Although I've been told recently that there's a change in the name of the the there's a change in the name of the the there's a change in the name of the the diagnosis, but essentially transverse diagnosis, but essentially transverse diagnosis, but essentially transverse myitis is not all that rare. But acute myitis is not all that rare. But acute myitis is not all that rare. But acute that acute in in terms of the like that acute in in terms of the like that acute in in terms of the like quickness of it, I had fallen asleep a quickness of it, I had fallen asleep a quickness of it, I had fallen asleep a nap for probably no more than 30 minutes nap for probably no more than 30 minutes nap for probably no more than 30 minutes and when I woke up I was paralyzed. So and when I woke up I was paralyzed. So and when I woke up I was paralyzed. So it was the the quickness of the actual it was the the quickness of the actual it was the the quickness of the actual damage that was done to my spinal cord damage that was done to my spinal cord damage that was done to my spinal cord that was the catalyst for in the that was the catalyst for in the that was the catalyst for in the diagnosis saying that the chances of me diagnosis saying that the chances of me diagnosis saying that the chances of me walking again were were very low walking again were were very low walking again were were very low >> but within a month you were walking >> but within a month you were walking >> but within a month you were walking again. again. again. >> Yeah. 1 month to the day. So in fact the >> Yeah. 1 month to the day. So in fact the >> Yeah. 1 month to the day. So in fact the anniversary 23 year anniversary was anniversary 23 year anniversary was anniversary 23 year anniversary was recently cuz it was in February 8th. Um recently cuz it was in February 8th. Um recently cuz it was in February 8th. Um I woke up on a Saturday morning got out I woke up on a Saturday morning got out I woke up on a Saturday morning got out of bed and walked over to my wheelchair. of bed and walked over to my wheelchair. of bed and walked over to my wheelchair. Did this change your perspective on God, Did this change your perspective on God, Did this change your perspective on God, Christianity, religion? Christianity, religion? Christianity, religion? >> It did in some ways. I mean, I don't I >> It did in some ways. I mean, I don't I >> It did in some ways. I mean, I don't I don't know how it couldn't. Uh, it don't know how it couldn't. Uh, it don't know how it couldn't. Uh, it definitely to have medical professionals definitely to have medical professionals definitely to have medical professionals tell me tell me tell me you're probably going to be a paraplegic you're probably going to be a paraplegic you're probably going to be a paraplegic for the rest of your life. Like, this is for the rest of your life. Like, this is for the rest of your life. Like, this is what you need to kind of accept and and what you need to kind of accept and and what you need to kind of accept and and get used to to the exact same medical get used to to the exact same medical get used to to the exact same medical professionals, you know, the um professionals, you know, the um professionals, you know, the um pediatric neurologists saying we don't pediatric neurologists saying we don't pediatric neurologists saying we don't know why you're walking. know why you're walking. know why you're walking. that had to have an impact on me in that that had to have an impact on me in that that had to have an impact on me in that I think I I truly believe I was healed I think I I truly believe I was healed I think I I truly believe I was healed in that it was the doctors who used the in that it was the doctors who used the in that it was the doctors who used the word miracle because they said that they word miracle because they said that they word miracle because they said that they they couldn't medically explain why they couldn't medically explain why they couldn't medically explain why there was no more damage on my spinal there was no more damage on my spinal there was no more damage on my spinal cord, why I was walking with like not cord, why I was walking with like not cord, why I was walking with like not even any like atrophy or anything. even any like atrophy or anything. even any like atrophy or anything. However, I still needed to figure some However, I still needed to figure some However, I still needed to figure some of the more intellectual questions out of the more intellectual questions out of the more intellectual questions out of my head when I was a teenager. So, it of my head when I was a teenager. So, it of my head when I was a teenager. So, it wasn't just that this happened and wasn't just that this happened and wasn't just that this happened and explained a lot because I was open to explained a lot because I was open to explained a lot because I was open to the possibility of this being a fluke of the possibility of this being a fluke of the possibility of this being a fluke of there being a completely randomness to there being a completely randomness to there being a completely randomness to this. this. this. >> Mhm. And so when I was a teenager, I >> Mhm. And so when I was a teenager, I >> Mhm. And so when I was a teenager, I investigated a lot, you know, to the investigated a lot, you know, to the investigated a lot, you know, to the best of my ability as a 17-year-old in best of my ability as a 17-year-old in best of my ability as a 17-year-old in trying to answer some of the more trying to answer some of the more trying to answer some of the more meaning questions about I know what my meaning questions about I know what my meaning questions about I know what my parents raised me to believe, but if I parents raised me to believe, but if I parents raised me to believe, but if I believe it simply because they told me believe it simply because they told me believe it simply because they told me to, it's not the worst to, it's not the worst to, it's not the worst reason, but it's also not the best reason, but it's also not the best reason, but it's also not the best reason. So that's is the first time that reason. So that's is the first time that reason. So that's is the first time that I uh read the Quran cover to cover. I I uh read the Quran cover to cover. I I uh read the Quran cover to cover. I was looking into things like the Book of was looking into things like the Book of was looking into things like the Book of Mormon and the Bakabita. I was just Mormon and the Bakabita. I was just Mormon and the Bakabita. I was just curious. That's when you know reading curious. That's when you know reading curious. That's when you know reading Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, not in any type of crisis, Dennett, not in any type of crisis, Dennett, not in any type of crisis, faith crisis way, but I was I was faith crisis way, but I was I was faith crisis way, but I was I was investigating. investigating. investigating. >> So you believe in the supernatural? >> So you believe in the supernatural? >> So you believe in the supernatural? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Do you believe that we can speak to the >> Do you believe that we can speak to the >> Do you believe that we can speak to the dead? dead? dead? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> You don't believe that? >> You don't believe that? >> You don't believe that? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> So when people >> So when people >> So when people >> Well, I should I should preface that. It >> Well, I should I should preface that. It >> Well, I should I should preface that. It depends what you mean by speaking to the depends what you mean by speaking to the depends what you mean by speaking to the dead. I think it's I think it's dead. I think it's I think it's dead. I think it's I think it's possible. We have examples of it in the possible. We have examples of it in the possible. We have examples of it in the Bible. Um, Bible. Um, Bible. Um, Saul gets a medium to call up the spirit Saul gets a medium to call up the spirit Saul gets a medium to call up the spirit of Samuel. of Samuel. of Samuel. >> So, do you believe mediums are telling >> So, do you believe mediums are telling >> So, do you believe mediums are telling the truth when they say that they're the truth when they say that they're the truth when they say that they're contacting people in the afterlife? I contacting people in the afterlife? I contacting people in the afterlife? I think that there's a possibility of think that there's a possibility of think that there's a possibility of engaging the supernatural world, which engaging the supernatural world, which engaging the supernatural world, which is dangerous. And I think there's a very is dangerous. And I think there's a very is dangerous. And I think there's a very fuzzy line between mediums who are con fuzzy line between mediums who are con fuzzy line between mediums who are con artists and people who are act engaged artists and people who are act engaged artists and people who are act engaged in something that is dabbling in the in something that is dabbling in the in something that is dabbling in the supernatural. supernatural. supernatural. >> I say this in part because I I've heard >> I say this in part because I I've heard >> I say this in part because I I've heard people say that, you know, their people say that, you know, their people say that, you know, their partner's passed away and then they've partner's passed away and then they've partner's passed away and then they've seen signs, their partner has left them seen signs, their partner has left them seen signs, their partner has left them signs. Hm. signs. Hm. signs. Hm. >> Do do you believe in this kind of thing? >> Do do you believe in this kind of thing? >> Do do you believe in this kind of thing? >> I don't think so. Not in those ways. I I >> I don't think so. Not in those ways. I I >> I don't think so. Not in those ways. I I think when people are dead, they're think when people are dead, they're think when people are dead, they're dead. Um, but I think there are aspects dead. Um, but I think there are aspects dead. Um, but I think there are aspects of the supernatural world and a world of the supernatural world and a world of the supernatural world and a world that's going on behind the scenes that's that's going on behind the scenes that's that's going on behind the scenes that's articulated within scripture that have articulated within scripture that have articulated within scripture that have an impact on this world in a way that if an impact on this world in a way that if an impact on this world in a way that if people can be distracted and misled to people can be distracted and misled to people can be distracted and misled to think that they are contacting dead think that they are contacting dead think that they are contacting dead relatives, then that is otherwise going relatives, then that is otherwise going relatives, then that is otherwise going to uh prevent them from pursuing what to uh prevent them from pursuing what to uh prevent them from pursuing what they should be as image bearsers of God. they should be as image bearsers of God. they should be as image bearsers of God. So you think it's demonic in some some So you think it's demonic in some some So you think it's demonic in some some capacity? capacity? capacity? >> I think it can be. I don't think it's >> I think it can be. I don't think it's >> I think it can be. I don't think it's always. I think in emotionally always. I think in emotionally always. I think in emotionally vulnerable states, we are willing to vulnerable states, we are willing to vulnerable states, we are willing to adhere to all sorts of things. adhere to all sorts of things. adhere to all sorts of things. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And there's a um there's a sensitivity >> And there's a um there's a sensitivity >> And there's a um there's a sensitivity that I want to communicate around that. that I want to communicate around that. that I want to communicate around that. >> Mh. Because I think people especially in >> Mh. Because I think people especially in >> Mh. Because I think people especially in the in the periods of the deaths of the in the periods of the deaths of the in the periods of the deaths of loved ones often want to look for loved ones often want to look for loved ones often want to look for validation in their passed away loved validation in their passed away loved validation in their passed away loved ones leaving something or communicating ones leaving something or communicating ones leaving something or communicating or or or >> and also that we all want to believe >> and also that we all want to believe >> and also that we all want to believe when we lose people we love that they when we lose people we love that they when we lose people we love that they are somewhere better that they are in a are somewhere better that they are in a are somewhere better that they are in a good place and this is one of the the good place and this is one of the the good place and this is one of the the things that I struggled with earlier things that I struggled with earlier things that I struggled with earlier when we were talking about hell which is when we were talking about hell which is when we were talking about hell which is if such a small percentage of people are if such a small percentage of people are if such a small percentage of people are making it to hell by whatever measure of making it to hell by whatever measure of making it to hell by whatever measure of acceptance one believes, then that would acceptance one believes, then that would acceptance one believes, then that would mean that like my grandmother who wasn't mean that like my grandmother who wasn't mean that like my grandmother who wasn't necessarily a devout religious person or necessarily a devout religious person or necessarily a devout religious person or a Christian or she hadn't repented is a Christian or she hadn't repented is a Christian or she hadn't repented is currently in hell. And that's a hard currently in hell. And that's a hard currently in hell. And that's a hard thought to take that she is in such a thought to take that she is in such a thought to take that she is in such a awful place now. awful place now. awful place now. >> Yeah. And this will this this would >> Yeah. And this will this this would >> Yeah. And this will this this would obviously make people not want to obviously make people not want to obviously make people not want to experience that dissonance and therefore experience that dissonance and therefore experience that dissonance and therefore reject religion and say, "Well, no, my reject religion and say, "Well, no, my reject religion and say, "Well, no, my if I accept the Bible, then I have to if I accept the Bible, then I have to if I accept the Bible, then I have to accept my grandmother's currently accept my grandmother's currently accept my grandmother's currently burning in hell, burning in hell, burning in hell, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And so I'm going to reject the Bible. >> And so I'm going to reject the Bible. >> And so I'm going to reject the Bible. It's much easier than accepting that my It's much easier than accepting that my It's much easier than accepting that my grandmother's suffering right now, grandmother's suffering right now, grandmother's suffering right now, >> right? I mean, ultimately that's a um I >> right? I mean, ultimately that's a um I >> right? I mean, ultimately that's a um I I wouldn't do it that way. Therefore, I wouldn't do it that way. Therefore, I wouldn't do it that way. Therefore, it's not true." it's not true." it's not true." >> Sorry. What you mean? Well, I don't >> Sorry. What you mean? Well, I don't >> Sorry. What you mean? Well, I don't think that God should send my think that God should send my think that God should send my grandmother to hell. grandmother to hell. grandmother to hell. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Therefore, I'm going to conclude that >> Therefore, I'm going to conclude that >> Therefore, I'm going to conclude that it's not true based on that type of Now, it's not true based on that type of Now, it's not true based on that type of Now, at the end of the day, at the end of the day, at the end of the day, does God communicate with people in ways does God communicate with people in ways does God communicate with people in ways that go beyond my understanding? I've that go beyond my understanding? I've that go beyond my understanding? I've talked to enough Muslims in the Muslim talked to enough Muslims in the Muslim talked to enough Muslims in the Muslim world who've had dreams about Jesus to world who've had dreams about Jesus to world who've had dreams about Jesus to know that something goes on. like I know that something goes on. like I know that something goes on. like I don't understand sometimes what what don't understand sometimes what what don't understand sometimes what what happens on the deathbed between an happens on the deathbed between an happens on the deathbed between an individual and their maker. So it's not individual and their maker. So it's not individual and their maker. So it's not my place to say that they are burning in my place to say that they are burning in my place to say that they are burning in hell or whatever you know descriptive hell or whatever you know descriptive hell or whatever you know descriptive language you want to use language you want to use language you want to use >> cuz I it's that's between them and God >> cuz I it's that's between them and God >> cuz I it's that's between them and God at the exact same time apart from the at the exact same time apart from the at the exact same time apart from the saving work of Christ I'm going to hell. saving work of Christ I'm going to hell. saving work of Christ I'm going to hell. So, and I I genuinely believe that is So, and I I genuinely believe that is So, and I I genuinely believe that is that apart from the inbreaking of God that apart from the inbreaking of God that apart from the inbreaking of God into my life in part and parcel by into my life in part and parcel by into my life in part and parcel by things like this, but also by like things like this, but also by like things like this, but also by like showing me and allowing me to showing me and allowing me to showing me and allowing me to investigate these things and wrestle investigate these things and wrestle investigate these things and wrestle through questions and putting people in through questions and putting people in through questions and putting people in places in my life that have formed me places in my life that have formed me places in my life that have formed me and shaped me and allowed me to look at and shaped me and allowed me to look at and shaped me and allowed me to look at the evidence and have conversations and the evidence and have conversations and the evidence and have conversations and be honest and transparent. And those are be honest and transparent. And those are be honest and transparent. And those are the things that have led me down a road the things that have led me down a road the things that have led me down a road to say, you know, I'm convinced. I'm to say, you know, I'm convinced. I'm to say, you know, I'm convinced. I'm convinced that this is true convinced that this is true convinced that this is true experientially, that it is experientially, that it is experientially, that it is intellectually intellectually intellectually robust, and that it is experientially robust, and that it is experientially robust, and that it is experientially profound profound profound for me and for so many other people, for me and for so many other people, for me and for so many other people, your friend included. your friend included. your friend included. >> What's the most important thing that we >> What's the most important thing that we >> What's the most important thing that we haven't talked about that we should have haven't talked about that we should have haven't talked about that we should have talked about, Wesley? For the people talked about, Wesley? For the people talked about, Wesley? For the people that are listening, you know, I would that are listening, you know, I would that are listening, you know, I would assume they're very curious people. Some assume they're very curious people. Some assume they're very curious people. Some of them are religious, some of them of them are religious, some of them of them are religious, some of them aren't. What is the most important thing aren't. What is the most important thing aren't. What is the most important thing that we should close on in your view? that we should close on in your view? that we should close on in your view? >> Part of my academic study is that I do >> Part of my academic study is that I do >> Part of my academic study is that I do what's called paparology and what's called paparology and what's called paparology and paleography. So I make faximiles of paleography. So I make faximiles of paleography. So I make faximiles of manuscripts, ancient manuscripts, um manuscripts, ancient manuscripts, um manuscripts, ancient manuscripts, um particularly biblical manuscripts. So particularly biblical manuscripts. So particularly biblical manuscripts. So this is a biblical manuscript, right? this is a biblical manuscript, right? this is a biblical manuscript, right? P46. P46. P46. It's a late second or third century page It's a late second or third century page It's a late second or third century page from a collection of Paul's epistles. So from a collection of Paul's epistles. So from a collection of Paul's epistles. So >> Paul from the Bible. >> Paul from the Bible. >> Paul from the Bible. >> Paul from the Bible. He wrote this. >> Paul from the Bible. He wrote this. >> Paul from the Bible. He wrote this. >> Well, so he wrote that and then a scribe >> Well, so he wrote that and then a scribe >> Well, so he wrote that and then a scribe in the second century copied it down. So in the second century copied it down. So in the second century copied it down. So this is I made this. So this is genuine this is I made this. So this is genuine this is I made this. So this is genuine papyrus. I'm only wrote on one side so papyrus. I'm only wrote on one side so papyrus. I'm only wrote on one side so you could see kind of how the papyrus is you could see kind of how the papyrus is you could see kind of how the papyrus is put together. And then I got you a I got put together. And then I got you a I got put together. And then I got you a I got you a nice Bible. you a nice Bible. you a nice Bible. >> Oh, >> Oh, >> Oh, >> but I have put a bookmark in the page >> but I have put a bookmark in the page >> but I have put a bookmark in the page where that passage is. where that passage is. where that passage is. >> Why why did you pick that particular >> Why why did you pick that particular >> Why why did you pick that particular passage? passage? passage? >> Well, why don't you open it up and read >> Well, why don't you open it up and read >> Well, why don't you open it up and read it? So it's it's on the little it? So it's it's on the little it? So it's it's on the little inscription note that I have there. uh inscription note that I have there. uh inscription note that I have there. uh Romans 12. So you can see on the bottom Romans 12. So you can see on the bottom Romans 12. So you can see on the bottom there that there's the title. there that there's the title. there that there's the title. >> Oh yeah. 12 112. >> Oh yeah. 12 112. >> Oh yeah. 12 112. >> So it says, "Rejoice in hope. Be patient >> So it says, "Rejoice in hope. Be patient >> So it says, "Rejoice in hope. Be patient in tribulation. Be constant in prayer. in tribulation. Be constant in prayer. in tribulation. Be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints Contribute to the needs of the saints Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality. Bless and seek to show hospitality. Bless and seek to show hospitality. Bless those who persecute you. Bless and do those who persecute you. Bless and do those who persecute you. Bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who not curse them. Rejoice with those who not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice. Weep with those who weep. Live rejoice. Weep with those who weep. Live rejoice. Weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be in harmony with one another. Do not be in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. haughty, but associate with the lowly. haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay Never be wise in your own sight. Repay Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought no one evil for evil, but give thought no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of to do what is honorable in the sight of to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends all. If possible, so far as it depends all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peacefully with all. on you, live peacefully with all. on you, live peacefully with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God. For it is leave it to the wrath of God. For it is leave it to the wrath of God. For it is written, "Vengeance is mine. I will written, "Vengeance is mine. I will written, "Vengeance is mine. I will repay, says the Lord. To the contrary, repay, says the Lord. To the contrary, repay, says the Lord. To the contrary, if your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he if your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he if your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him something to drink. is thirsty, give him something to drink. is thirsty, give him something to drink. For by so doing, you will heat burning For by so doing, you will heat burning For by so doing, you will heat burning coals on his head. Do not be overcome by coals on his head. Do not be overcome by coals on his head. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. evil, but overcome evil with good. evil, but overcome evil with good. >> So hopefully that's a good passage to >> So hopefully that's a good passage to >> So hopefully that's a good passage to >> beautiful >> beautiful >> beautiful >> remember, think about, and then that's >> remember, think about, and then that's >> remember, think about, and then that's the box for it. the box for it. the box for it. >> Thank you so much. This is so beautiful. >> Thank you so much. This is so beautiful. >> Thank you so much. This is so beautiful. Wesley, we have a closing tradition on Wesley, we have a closing tradition on Wesley, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves this podcast where the last guest leaves this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next not knowing who a question for the next not knowing who a question for the next not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question they're leaving it for. And the question they're leaving it for. And the question left for you is, "What is one risk that left for you is, "What is one risk that left for you is, "What is one risk that you should be taking in your life but you should be taking in your life but you should be taking in your life but aren't currently?" where I am in my aren't currently?" where I am in my aren't currently?" where I am in my life, I feel like so many things have life, I feel like so many things have life, I feel like so many things have happened so quickly that there's like an happened so quickly that there's like an happened so quickly that there's like an aspect of unpredictability and I I'm aspect of unpredictability and I I'm aspect of unpredictability and I I'm just a little bit My wife and I were just a little bit My wife and I were just a little bit My wife and I were talking last night and it was like we talking last night and it was like we talking last night and it was like we need to embrace what's happening right need to embrace what's happening right need to embrace what's happening right now, but from a year from now if it's now, but from a year from now if it's now, but from a year from now if it's all gone that's totally okay. all gone that's totally okay. all gone that's totally okay. >> Mhm. and and and we're fine with that >> Mhm. and and and we're fine with that >> Mhm. and and and we're fine with that whether that's you know financially or whether that's you know financially or whether that's you know financially or with social media or or opportunity or with social media or or opportunity or with social media or or opportunity or and maybe the risk is pushing into that and maybe the risk is pushing into that and maybe the risk is pushing into that and and and saying like you know maybe and and and saying like you know maybe and and and saying like you know maybe there's an aspect of that yes I think there's an aspect of that yes I think there's an aspect of that yes I think it's wise to keep that in calibration it's wise to keep that in calibration it's wise to keep that in calibration and understand that if this goes away and understand that if this goes away and understand that if this goes away tomorrow I'm content because this is tomorrow I'm content because this is tomorrow I'm content because this is beyond what I have I'm in a room sitting beyond what I have I'm in a room sitting beyond what I have I'm in a room sitting with Steven Bartlett with Steven Bartlett with Steven Bartlett >> I'm in a room sat with So there's an >> I'm in a room sat with So there's an >> I'm in a room sat with So there's an there's an aspect of that which is is there's an aspect of that which is is there's an aspect of that which is is completely mind-blowing to me, completely mind-blowing to me, completely mind-blowing to me, especially Wes Huff from a year ago. especially Wes Huff from a year ago. especially Wes Huff from a year ago. But maybe not selling myself short and But maybe not selling myself short and But maybe not selling myself short and thinking that, you know, these thinking that, you know, these thinking that, you know, these opportunities are opportunities to opportunities are opportunities to opportunities are opportunities to invest in others in ways that people invest in others in ways that people invest in others in ways that people have invested in me over this last year. have invested in me over this last year. have invested in me over this last year. >> What do you mean by that? You mean >> What do you mean by that? You mean >> What do you mean by that? You mean >> with some of the things that I've I've >> with some of the things that I've I've >> with some of the things that I've I've been very uh graciously able to been very uh graciously able to been very uh graciously able to experience and in giving other people experience and in giving other people experience and in giving other people opportunity to maybe push into trying to opportunity to maybe push into trying to opportunity to maybe push into trying to make an impact in their space. make an impact in their space. make an impact in their space. >> Oh, okay. >> Oh, okay. >> Oh, okay. >> And encouraging them, >> And encouraging them, >> And encouraging them, >> pulling people up the ladder >> pulling people up the ladder >> pulling people up the ladder >> that you've been able to climb. >> that you've been able to climb. >> that you've been able to climb. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Paying it forward to or paying it >> Paying it forward to or paying it >> Paying it forward to or paying it downward, I guess. downward, I guess. downward, I guess. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> This is so so cool. Well, I'm I'm very >> This is so so cool. Well, I'm I'm very >> This is so so cool. Well, I'm I'm very thankful for you willing to have me on. thankful for you willing to have me on. thankful for you willing to have me on. So, thank you for So, thank you for So, thank you for >> No, thank you. You're such a great >> No, thank you. You're such a great >> No, thank you. You're such a great communicator and um you're so finely communicator and um you're so finely communicator and um you're so finely balanced in in your ability to deeply balanced in in your ability to deeply balanced in in your ability to deeply understand everything you're talking understand everything you're talking understand everything you're talking about from a historical perspective to about from a historical perspective to about from a historical perspective to be in the pursuit of truth as you kind be in the pursuit of truth as you kind be in the pursuit of truth as you kind of said irrespective of where that one of said irrespective of where that one of said irrespective of where that one might lead somebody but then you have might lead somebody but then you have might lead somebody but then you have the gift of yeah the gift of the gift of yeah the gift of the gift of yeah the gift of communication incredibly engaging person communication incredibly engaging person communication incredibly engaging person good intentions good man so I was very good intentions good man so I was very good intentions good man so I was very very you know very very glad we had this very you know very very glad we had this very you know very very glad we had this conversation and very much looking conversation and very much looking conversation and very much looking forward to it for a very long time so forward to it for a very long time so forward to it for a very long time so I'm glad you said yes I was asking my I'm glad you said yes I was asking my I'm glad you said yes I was asking my team for maybe I don't know maybe nine team for maybe I don't know maybe nine team for maybe I don't know maybe nine months to to get in contact with you. months to to get in contact with you. months to to get in contact with you. >> Well, I apologize cuz I hit no a few >> Well, I apologize cuz I hit no a few >> Well, I apologize cuz I hit no a few times. times. times. >> No, it's okay. It's okay. But um I'm >> No, it's okay. It's okay. But um I'm >> No, it's okay. It's okay. But um I'm really really appreciative of it, really really appreciative of it, really really appreciative of it, Wesley, and I hope to have this Wesley, and I hope to have this Wesley, and I hope to have this conversation again sometime soon. conversation again sometime soon. conversation again sometime soon. >> Yeah, that'd be great. >> Yeah, that'd be great. >> Yeah, that'd be great. >> Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy >> Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy >> Thank you. YouTube have this new crazy algorithm where they know exactly what algorithm where they know exactly what algorithm where they know exactly what video you would like to watch next based video you would like to watch next based video you would like to watch next based on AI and all of your viewing behavior. on AI and all of your viewing behavior. on AI and all of your viewing behavior. And the algorithm says that this video And the algorithm says that this video And the algorithm says that this video is the perfect video for you. It's is the perfect video for you. It's is the perfect video for you. It's different for everybody looking right different for everybody looking right different for everybody looking right now. Check this video out and I bet you now. Check this video out and I bet you now. Check this video out and I bet you you might love it.