NEW Science: Your ‘Immune Age’ Predicts How Long You’ll Live (Heal it Today) | Jenna Macciochi

Many of us think that our immune systems Many of us think that our immune systems are solely there to defend us against are solely there to defend us against are solely there to defend us against infections. But in your new book, infections. But in your new book, infections. But in your new book, >> you make the case that the immune system >> you make the case that the immune system >> you make the case that the immune system is one of the central systems within our is one of the central systems within our is one of the central systems within our bodies shaping how we age. bodies shaping how we age. bodies shaping how we age. Why is this so misunderstood? Why is this so misunderstood? Why is this so misunderstood? >> Yeah, I think this is going to be my >> Yeah, I think this is going to be my >> Yeah, I think this is going to be my life's work to try and rebrand the life's work to try and rebrand the life's work to try and rebrand the immune system as much more than just immune system as much more than just immune system as much more than just infection protection. In fact, I like to infection protection. In fact, I like to infection protection. In fact, I like to think of it as the wellness system and think of it as the wellness system and think of it as the wellness system and it's kind of our arbiter of our health it's kind of our arbiter of our health it's kind of our arbiter of our health across the life course. So, we only across the life course. So, we only across the life course. So, we only think about it when we get sick. We're think about it when we get sick. We're think about it when we get sick. We're like, "Oh, I've got that fever. I've got like, "Oh, I've got that fever. I've got like, "Oh, I've got that fever. I've got a flu. I've got that seasonal lurgy a flu. I've got that seasonal lurgy a flu. I've got that seasonal lurgy that's going around." And I think that's going around." And I think that's going around." And I think >> we have to think about it a bit >> we have to think about it a bit >> we have to think about it a bit differently now. And that's kind of differently now. And that's kind of differently now. And that's kind of where my my idea came for the book. The where my my idea came for the book. The where my my idea came for the book. The immune system seems to be at the heart immune system seems to be at the heart immune system seems to be at the heart of so many of the things that people of so many of the things that people of so many of the things that people struggle with these days. Autoimmune struggle with these days. Autoimmune struggle with these days. Autoimmune disease, asthma, heart disease. Yeah. disease, asthma, heart disease. Yeah. disease, asthma, heart disease. Yeah. >> Alzheimer's, cancer, >> Alzheimer's, cancer, >> Alzheimer's, cancer, >> and and we're going to talk about that >> and and we're going to talk about that >> and and we're going to talk about that throughout this conversation. throughout this conversation. throughout this conversation. >> But of course, as you point out in your >> But of course, as you point out in your >> But of course, as you point out in your book, one of the hot topics at the book, one of the hot topics at the book, one of the hot topics at the moment is longevity. You know, how well moment is longevity. You know, how well moment is longevity. You know, how well we're going to age. Do you think that we we're going to age. Do you think that we we're going to age. Do you think that we can say that the health of our immune can say that the health of our immune can say that the health of our immune system system system directly correlates with how well we're directly correlates with how well we're directly correlates with how well we're aging and arguably can predict how long aging and arguably can predict how long aging and arguably can predict how long we're going to live? we're going to live? we're going to live? >> I think quite possibly. I think we're >> I think quite possibly. I think we're >> I think quite possibly. I think we're not quite there yet and being able to do not quite there yet and being able to do not quite there yet and being able to do that as a consumer test, let's say, but that as a consumer test, let's say, but that as a consumer test, let's say, but we do have ways to measure what we call we do have ways to measure what we call we do have ways to measure what we call immune resilience. uh and this is a sort immune resilience. uh and this is a sort immune resilience. uh and this is a sort of research-based marker that would of research-based marker that would of research-based marker that would allow us to determine if somebody's allow us to determine if somebody's allow us to determine if somebody's immune system was functioning well. And immune system was functioning well. And immune system was functioning well. And so I don't say, you know, something like so I don't say, you know, something like so I don't say, you know, something like boosted because that's not quite the boosted because that's not quite the boosted because that's not quite the right word. We have all these different right word. We have all these different right word. We have all these different components of the immune system need to components of the immune system need to components of the immune system need to be balanced. And it's kind of like a be balanced. And it's kind of like a be balanced. And it's kind of like a rubber band, like it can respond when it rubber band, like it can respond when it rubber band, like it can respond when it needs to, but come back to baseline needs to, but come back to baseline needs to, but come back to baseline effectively and not kind of get effectively and not kind of get effectively and not kind of get triggered unnecessarily or in an triggered unnecessarily or in an triggered unnecessarily or in an unwanted fashion like an autoimmune unwanted fashion like an autoimmune unwanted fashion like an autoimmune disease or an allergy. And you mentioned disease or an allergy. And you mentioned disease or an allergy. And you mentioned a few diseases that people might not a few diseases that people might not a few diseases that people might not expect to have an immune system expect to have an immune system expect to have an immune system component like cancer, heart disease. We component like cancer, heart disease. We component like cancer, heart disease. We have things like metabolic syndrome. Now have things like metabolic syndrome. Now have things like metabolic syndrome. Now these all have components of immune these all have components of immune these all have components of immune dysfunction going on which I think has dysfunction going on which I think has dysfunction going on which I think has long been sort of misunderstood and if long been sort of misunderstood and if long been sort of misunderstood and if we start to consider how the immune we start to consider how the immune we start to consider how the immune system plays a role in driving these system plays a role in driving these system plays a role in driving these conditions where where does it go ary conditions where where does it go ary conditions where where does it go ary then we can start to get ahead of what then we can start to get ahead of what then we can start to get ahead of what is probably the biggest health crisis is probably the biggest health crisis is probably the biggest health crisis that we have. that we have. that we have. >> It's interesting if I reflect back on my >> It's interesting if I reflect back on my >> It's interesting if I reflect back on my medical school education. I went to medical school education. I went to medical school education. I went to Edinburgh Medical School back in 95 and Edinburgh Medical School back in 95 and Edinburgh Medical School back in 95 and in 98 I took a year out to do an in 98 I took a year out to do an in 98 I took a year out to do an immunology degree. immunology degree. immunology degree. >> It strikes me as I look back that there >> It strikes me as I look back that there >> It strikes me as I look back that there was a fundamental was a fundamental was a fundamental flaw that might be an understandable flaw that might be an understandable flaw that might be an understandable flaw but a fundamental flaw nonetheless flaw but a fundamental flaw nonetheless flaw but a fundamental flaw nonetheless which was to look at everything which was to look at everything which was to look at everything >> as separate. >> as separate. >> as separate. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Right. That this is the you know this is >> Right. That this is the you know this is >> Right. That this is the you know this is what's going on when the heart's not what's going on when the heart's not what's going on when the heart's not working. This is what's not working well working. This is what's not working well working. This is what's not working well when the lungs are not working or the when the lungs are not working or the when the lungs are not working or the brain's not working. And I think our brain's not working. And I think our brain's not working. And I think our understanding as clinicians, as understanding as clinicians, as understanding as clinicians, as researchers, as scientists has really researchers, as scientists has really researchers, as scientists has really evolved over the years where we're now evolved over the years where we're now evolved over the years where we're now seeing this as seeing this as seeing this as >> a connected system. And of course, the >> a connected system. And of course, the >> a connected system. And of course, the immune system lies at the very heart of immune system lies at the very heart of immune system lies at the very heart of it all. it all. it all. >> Yes. Exactly. And I kind of see it as a >> Yes. Exactly. And I kind of see it as a >> Yes. Exactly. And I kind of see it as a network. So we call it the immune network. So we call it the immune network. So we call it the immune system, but unlike other systems in our system, but unlike other systems in our system, but unlike other systems in our body, you know, you would be able to body, you know, you would be able to body, you know, you would be able to tell me where anatomically your tell me where anatomically your tell me where anatomically your digestive system is or your respiratory digestive system is or your respiratory digestive system is or your respiratory system because they're located in a system because they're located in a system because they're located in a specific anatomical area. But your specific anatomical area. But your specific anatomical area. But your immune system is everywhere. It's this immune system is everywhere. It's this immune system is everywhere. It's this network system that's sort of connecting network system that's sort of connecting network system that's sort of connecting it all. It's using your lymphatic it all. It's using your lymphatic it all. It's using your lymphatic vessels and your blood vessels to move vessels and your blood vessels to move vessels and your blood vessels to move around. It's in interwoven with the the around. It's in interwoven with the the around. It's in interwoven with the the barriers to your body. So the lining of barriers to your body. So the lining of barriers to your body. So the lining of your digestive tract, your skin, it's in your digestive tract, your skin, it's in your digestive tract, your skin, it's in your brain. It's everywhere. It's in the your brain. It's everywhere. It's in the your brain. It's everywhere. It's in the gut. And it's there because it's gut. And it's there because it's gut. And it's there because it's constantly sensing your outside world constantly sensing your outside world constantly sensing your outside world and your internal world and working and your internal world and working and your internal world and working together with your nervous system to together with your nervous system to together with your nervous system to feed all that information back and give feed all that information back and give feed all that information back and give you a sense of of if there's danger, you a sense of of if there's danger, you a sense of of if there's danger, what needs healing, what needs what needs healing, what needs what needs healing, what needs repairing, and how well you feel repairing, and how well you feel repairing, and how well you feel dayto-day. dayto-day. dayto-day. >> Yeah, I really love the introduction in >> Yeah, I really love the introduction in >> Yeah, I really love the introduction in your new book. And I think in the your new book. And I think in the your new book. And I think in the introduction you make the case that the introduction you make the case that the introduction you make the case that the immune system is made not born. immune system is made not born. immune system is made not born. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Which I think is something for us all to >> Which I think is something for us all to >> Which I think is something for us all to reflect on. The immune system reflect on. The immune system reflect on. The immune system develops depending on our life develops depending on our life develops depending on our life experiences, depending on the inputs we experiences, depending on the inputs we experiences, depending on the inputs we >> give our body that then shapes the >> give our body that then shapes the >> give our body that then shapes the immune system and how it functions. immune system and how it functions. immune system and how it functions. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> First of all, have I got that right? And >> First of all, have I got that right? And >> First of all, have I got that right? And secondly, if so, secondly, if so, secondly, if so, can you give us some sort of practical can you give us some sort of practical can you give us some sort of practical examples of what are the kinds of things examples of what are the kinds of things examples of what are the kinds of things that we can do that positively shape our that we can do that positively shape our that we can do that positively shape our immune systems? immune systems? immune systems? >> Yeah, I think it's it's broadly true to >> Yeah, I think it's it's broadly true to >> Yeah, I think it's it's broadly true to say it's made not born. We are born with say it's made not born. We are born with say it's made not born. We are born with certain immune functions, but then it certain immune functions, but then it certain immune functions, but then it develops much of their early life. So, a develops much of their early life. So, a develops much of their early life. So, a little bit like the nervous system, like little bit like the nervous system, like little bit like the nervous system, like we're born with a nervous system, but a we're born with a nervous system, but a we're born with a nervous system, but a baby can't talk and think and articulate baby can't talk and think and articulate baby can't talk and think and articulate in the way that an adult does. It has to in the way that an adult does. It has to in the way that an adult does. It has to do a lot of learning and training after do a lot of learning and training after do a lot of learning and training after birth. And so, the immune system is kind birth. And so, the immune system is kind birth. And so, the immune system is kind of similar to that. And because it's of similar to that. And because it's of similar to that. And because it's responsive to your environment, it will responsive to your environment, it will responsive to your environment, it will respond to what inputs we get. So, um I respond to what inputs we get. So, um I respond to what inputs we get. So, um I think childhood is a real window of think childhood is a real window of think childhood is a real window of opportunity. Uh, and this was kind of opportunity. Uh, and this was kind of opportunity. Uh, and this was kind of what sparked um partly sparked writing what sparked um partly sparked writing what sparked um partly sparked writing this book because I wanted to think this book because I wanted to think this book because I wanted to think about life course health. And that's about life course health. And that's about life course health. And that's something we don't often do in research something we don't often do in research something we don't often do in research because it's really expensive to do a because it's really expensive to do a because it's really expensive to do a study of someone's entire life course. study of someone's entire life course. study of someone's entire life course. So we tend to get a snapshot of one So we tend to get a snapshot of one So we tend to get a snapshot of one point in time and then we'll say that point in time and then we'll say that point in time and then we'll say that 25year-old 25year-old 25year-old male data is the same as someone in male data is the same as someone in male data is the same as someone in their 60s and it actually might not be. their 60s and it actually might not be. their 60s and it actually might not be. But childhood is an interesting immune But childhood is an interesting immune But childhood is an interesting immune window because we have this rapid immune window because we have this rapid immune window because we have this rapid immune development that happens after birth and development that happens after birth and development that happens after birth and a lot of that is through exposures to a lot of that is through exposures to a lot of that is through exposures to germs. Now we used to have this idea germs. Now we used to have this idea germs. Now we used to have this idea that um we had to have this kind of that um we had to have this kind of that um we had to have this kind of hygienic environment. So we have in the hygienic environment. So we have in the hygienic environment. So we have in the 80s um the hygiene hypothesis emerged 80s um the hygiene hypothesis emerged 80s um the hygiene hypothesis emerged whereby um hygiene was associated with whereby um hygiene was associated with whereby um hygiene was associated with with allergies and I think that was kind with allergies and I think that was kind with allergies and I think that was kind of misguided and the word hygiene is not of misguided and the word hygiene is not of misguided and the word hygiene is not the correct word that's later been the correct word that's later been the correct word that's later been updated to the old friends hypothesis by updated to the old friends hypothesis by updated to the old friends hypothesis by someone called Graeme Rook at UCL in someone called Graeme Rook at UCL in someone called Graeme Rook at UCL in London and this posits that your old London and this posits that your old London and this posits that your old friends are the good microbes that live friends are the good microbes that live friends are the good microbes that live in our environment. So, we used to kind in our environment. So, we used to kind in our environment. So, we used to kind of think germs are bad. Like germs are of think germs are bad. Like germs are of think germs are bad. Like germs are always causing infection. But actually always causing infection. But actually always causing infection. But actually 99% of the microbes around us in the air 99% of the microbes around us in the air 99% of the microbes around us in the air we're breathing on the surfaces we touch we're breathing on the surfaces we touch we're breathing on the surfaces we touch are are harmless. They're part of our are are harmless. They're part of our are are harmless. They're part of our environmental microbiome. And then environmental microbiome. And then environmental microbiome. And then inside our gut, on our skin, and our inside our gut, on our skin, and our inside our gut, on our skin, and our airways, we have our own microbiomes on airways, we have our own microbiomes on airways, we have our own microbiomes on our body. And these are at these barrier our body. And these are at these barrier our body. And these are at these barrier surfaces. And as I mentioned, a lot of surfaces. And as I mentioned, a lot of surfaces. And as I mentioned, a lot of your immune cells are also at the your immune cells are also at the your immune cells are also at the barrier surfaces. And they communicate. barrier surfaces. And they communicate. barrier surfaces. And they communicate. So a baby's born relatively sterile and So a baby's born relatively sterile and So a baby's born relatively sterile and then is consequently sort of um then is consequently sort of um then is consequently sort of um colonized by microbes, healthy good colonized by microbes, healthy good colonized by microbes, healthy good microbes that then train and educate the microbes that then train and educate the microbes that then train and educate the immune system. So this is probably one immune system. So this is probably one immune system. So this is probably one of the biggest inputs we have to the of the biggest inputs we have to the of the biggest inputs we have to the sort of trajectory our immune system has sort of trajectory our immune system has sort of trajectory our immune system has uh throughout life. But then I think we uh throughout life. But then I think we uh throughout life. But then I think we can continually nurture those microbes can continually nurture those microbes can continually nurture those microbes by the environments we go into, the food by the environments we go into, the food by the environments we go into, the food we eat, the things we do that we know we eat, the things we do that we know we eat, the things we do that we know from the latest research, for example, from the latest research, for example, from the latest research, for example, gut microbiome research, which has gut microbiome research, which has gut microbiome research, which has exploded in the last 10 years to try and exploded in the last 10 years to try and exploded in the last 10 years to try and continually nurture that good immune continually nurture that good immune continually nurture that good immune health. I mean, there's studies looking health. I mean, there's studies looking health. I mean, there's studies looking at frequency of cold and flu viruses in at frequency of cold and flu viruses in at frequency of cold and flu viruses in winter when you use like a a dietary winter when you use like a a dietary winter when you use like a a dietary fiber intervention because you're fiber intervention because you're fiber intervention because you're improving the microbes in the gut. improving the microbes in the gut. improving the microbes in the gut. They're improving how the immune cells They're improving how the immune cells They're improving how the immune cells are functioning in the gut and then are functioning in the gut and then are functioning in the gut and then they're recirculating around the body they're recirculating around the body they're recirculating around the body and providing better defense to and providing better defense to and providing better defense to infection. infection. infection. >> Yeah. So, you're saying that there's >> Yeah. So, you're saying that there's >> Yeah. So, you're saying that there's some research showing us that if we some research showing us that if we some research showing us that if we increase the right type of fiber in our increase the right type of fiber in our increase the right type of fiber in our diets, diets, diets, >> we're going to get less infections >> we're going to get less infections >> we're going to get less infections >> potentially. Yes. >> potentially. Yes. >> potentially. Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's really interesting, isn't it? >> That's really interesting, isn't it? >> That's really interesting, isn't it? That this more holistic look at the That this more holistic look at the That this more holistic look at the immune system, which I guess takes us immune system, which I guess takes us immune system, which I guess takes us away or a little bit away from things away or a little bit away from things away or a little bit away from things like, you know, when you have a cold, like, you know, when you have a cold, like, you know, when you have a cold, take vitamin C, take vitamin C, take vitamin C, >> right? We can maybe unpack that later. >> right? We can maybe unpack that later. >> right? We can maybe unpack that later. >> I guess the strong sense I get from your >> I guess the strong sense I get from your >> I guess the strong sense I get from your work and in particular reading your work and in particular reading your work and in particular reading your latest book, Immune to Age, latest book, Immune to Age, latest book, Immune to Age, >> is this idea that it's everything we do. >> is this idea that it's everything we do. >> is this idea that it's everything we do. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Everything we do, uh the food that we >> Everything we do, uh the food that we >> Everything we do, uh the food that we eat, how stressed we are, how much eat, how stressed we are, how much eat, how stressed we are, how much movement, is it the right kind of movement, is it the right kind of movement, is it the right kind of movement, even the way we talk to movement, even the way we talk to movement, even the way we talk to ourselves also impacts the health of our ourselves also impacts the health of our ourselves also impacts the health of our immune system. Yes. And immune system. Yes. And immune system. Yes. And >> I guess just to sort of make the full >> I guess just to sort of make the full >> I guess just to sort of make the full link, link, link, >> if someone has tuned into this >> if someone has tuned into this >> if someone has tuned into this conversation because they want better conversation because they want better conversation because they want better longevity, right? They they longevity, right? They they longevity, right? They they >> they want to live well for longer. >> they want to live well for longer. >> they want to live well for longer. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> You can't go far wrong focusing on the >> You can't go far wrong focusing on the >> You can't go far wrong focusing on the health of your immune system, can you? health of your immune system, can you? health of your immune system, can you? >> Yes. Exactly. And I think it's like not >> Yes. Exactly. And I think it's like not >> Yes. Exactly. And I think it's like not getting too worried about the one night getting too worried about the one night getting too worried about the one night of bad sleep that you might have heard of bad sleep that you might have heard of bad sleep that you might have heard can like deplete, you know, your ability can like deplete, you know, your ability can like deplete, you know, your ability to respond to infections. And it's more to respond to infections. And it's more to respond to infections. And it's more thinking about in the UK the the thinking about in the UK the the thinking about in the UK the the lifespan is around 80 depending on where lifespan is around 80 depending on where lifespan is around 80 depending on where you live. Um, think about the life you live. Um, think about the life you live. Um, think about the life course and not just focusing on the one course and not just focusing on the one course and not just focusing on the one bad meal you had or the one, you know, bad meal you had or the one, you know, bad meal you had or the one, you know, bad night's sleep. But I think we have bad night's sleep. But I think we have bad night's sleep. But I think we have to to me we've already had a longevity to to me we've already had a longevity to to me we've already had a longevity revolution and everyone keeps speaking revolution and everyone keeps speaking revolution and everyone keeps speaking about it. You know we have people like about it. You know we have people like about it. You know we have people like Brian Johnson and these people who are Brian Johnson and these people who are Brian Johnson and these people who are like pushing the boundaries of lifespan like pushing the boundaries of lifespan like pushing the boundaries of lifespan but you know it wasn't that long ago but you know it wasn't that long ago but you know it wasn't that long ago that people would barely live beyond 50. that people would barely live beyond 50. that people would barely live beyond 50. That's really really close in our That's really really close in our That's really really close in our evolutionary history. So we've already evolutionary history. So we've already evolutionary history. So we've already kind of gained all this extra time. But kind of gained all this extra time. But kind of gained all this extra time. But then I don't know about you but everyone then I don't know about you but everyone then I don't know about you but everyone has not enough time. like whenever I has not enough time. like whenever I has not enough time. like whenever I want to see friends or do things, we all want to see friends or do things, we all want to see friends or do things, we all feel like this time poor. And I think feel like this time poor. And I think feel like this time poor. And I think partly that's why we have to think about partly that's why we have to think about partly that's why we have to think about chronic diseases a little bit chronic diseases a little bit chronic diseases a little bit differently because these are now the differently because these are now the differently because these are now the biggest causes of poor health in the UK biggest causes of poor health in the UK biggest causes of poor health in the UK whereas perhaps a few generations ago it whereas perhaps a few generations ago it whereas perhaps a few generations ago it would have been infections that would would have been infections that would would have been infections that would have truncated life. have truncated life. have truncated life. >> And we know that things like heart >> And we know that things like heart >> And we know that things like heart disease, one of the biggest killers disease, one of the biggest killers disease, one of the biggest killers globally, actually starts much much globally, actually starts much much globally, actually starts much much earlier in life. like those changes, earlier in life. like those changes, earlier in life. like those changes, those tiny tiny changes that are those tiny tiny changes that are those tiny tiny changes that are happening in the arteries and we can happening in the arteries and we can happening in the arteries and we can like think like preventatively instead like think like preventatively instead like think like preventatively instead of waiting until our doctor tells us of waiting until our doctor tells us of waiting until our doctor tells us there's something up with our blood there's something up with our blood there's something up with our blood pressure. And I think that there's a pressure. And I think that there's a pressure. And I think that there's a human mindset shift where we're still human mindset shift where we're still human mindset shift where we're still living like our evolutionary past where living like our evolutionary past where living like our evolutionary past where you might die tomorrow because like you you might die tomorrow because like you you might die tomorrow because like you know there's lots of dangers around but know there's lots of dangers around but know there's lots of dangers around but we actually have a good chance of living we actually have a good chance of living we actually have a good chance of living quite long. quite long. quite long. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And it really tells us something about And it really tells us something about And it really tells us something about the human condition, doesn't it? This the human condition, doesn't it? This the human condition, doesn't it? This idea that idea that idea that >> guys, we've already had it or we've >> guys, we've already had it or we've >> guys, we've already had it or we've already had a certain part of it, already had a certain part of it, already had a certain part of it, >> but are we maxing out what we've already >> but are we maxing out what we've already >> but are we maxing out what we've already got? got? got? >> Exactly. you know, and yeah, I mean, you >> Exactly. you know, and yeah, I mean, you >> Exactly. you know, and yeah, I mean, you talk in the book about health span and talk in the book about health span and talk in the book about health span and lifespan and soul span, which I love, lifespan and soul span, which I love, lifespan and soul span, which I love, >> but can you sort of help us understand, >> but can you sort of help us understand, >> but can you sort of help us understand, you know, why did you come up with the you know, why did you come up with the you know, why did you come up with the term soul span? And what is it about the term soul span? And what is it about the term soul span? And what is it about the current longevity revolution that we're current longevity revolution that we're current longevity revolution that we're not fully realizing as humans? not fully realizing as humans? not fully realizing as humans? >> Yeah, I think the way you put it, the >> Yeah, I think the way you put it, the >> Yeah, I think the way you put it, the human condition is quite interesting, human condition is quite interesting, human condition is quite interesting, isn't it? Because we we're like, "Oh, isn't it? Because we we're like, "Oh, isn't it? Because we we're like, "Oh, no. Now we need to live much longer, but no. Now we need to live much longer, but no. Now we need to live much longer, but no, wait, we're not enjoying the time we no, wait, we're not enjoying the time we no, wait, we're not enjoying the time we have." And so as I mentioned in the UK have." And so as I mentioned in the UK have." And so as I mentioned in the UK roughly depending on where you live and roughly depending on where you live and roughly depending on where you live and whether you're male or female the whether you're male or female the whether you're male or female the lifespan is around 80 but the actual lifespan is around 80 but the actual lifespan is around 80 but the actual health span so that's years lived in health span so that's years lived in health span so that's years lived in good health is 60. So that's a 20 year good health is 60. So that's a 20 year good health is 60. So that's a 20 year delta. And that for me was like a delta. And that for me was like a delta. And that for me was like a massive wakeup call when I got to my massive wakeup call when I got to my massive wakeup call when I got to my early 40s. I was like this this early 40s. I was like this this early 40s. I was like this this could be half over already. It's not the could be half over already. It's not the could be half over already. It's not the prelude anymore. like you sometimes we prelude anymore. like you sometimes we prelude anymore. like you sometimes we we live like this is the warm up and we live like this is the warm up and we live like this is the warm up and then life will start and it's kind of then life will start and it's kind of then life will start and it's kind of like no wait a minute this is it you like no wait a minute this is it you like no wait a minute this is it you know and I want to make the best of the know and I want to make the best of the know and I want to make the best of the second half of my life and I think second half of my life and I think second half of my life and I think that's where I kind of got into this that's where I kind of got into this that's where I kind of got into this idea of soul span which was my way of idea of soul span which was my way of idea of soul span which was my way of thinking about time differently we have thinking about time differently we have thinking about time differently we have two forms of time we have linear time two forms of time we have linear time two forms of time we have linear time which we'd mark the days off the c the which we'd mark the days off the c the which we'd mark the days off the c the calendar as we you know march through calendar as we you know march through calendar as we you know march through the years um And then we have this more the years um And then we have this more the years um And then we have this more kind of sacred time whi which I felt kind of sacred time whi which I felt kind of sacred time whi which I felt quite inspired by nature because I wrote quite inspired by nature because I wrote quite inspired by nature because I wrote the book in seasons of life because time the book in seasons of life because time the book in seasons of life because time is is circular in nature. you know, is is circular in nature. you know, is is circular in nature. you know, we're we're just going into spring now. we're we're just going into spring now. we're we're just going into spring now. Things are starting to to come out, Things are starting to to come out, Things are starting to to come out, plants, things we haven't seen green on plants, things we haven't seen green on plants, things we haven't seen green on trees. And I grew up on a farm and trees. And I grew up on a farm and trees. And I grew up on a farm and everything was driven by the seasons. everything was driven by the seasons. everything was driven by the seasons. And you know, the harvest was only as And you know, the harvest was only as And you know, the harvest was only as good as the season before. And there was good as the season before. And there was good as the season before. And there was elements in the w, you know, things like elements in the w, you know, things like elements in the w, you know, things like weather that would determine that. And weather that would determine that. And weather that would determine that. And we forget that we've made this linear we forget that we've made this linear we forget that we've made this linear time, but time is actually really time, but time is actually really time, but time is actually really relative. relative. relative. >> And in nature, time is circular. It's >> And in nature, time is circular. It's >> And in nature, time is circular. It's always breaking down and renewing. And always breaking down and renewing. And always breaking down and renewing. And we can tap into that. And I feel like, we can tap into that. And I feel like, we can tap into that. And I feel like, you know, Einstein was like time is you know, Einstein was like time is you know, Einstein was like time is relative. You go on holiday and time relative. You go on holiday and time relative. You go on holiday and time stretches forever. But I can go and sit stretches forever. But I can go and sit stretches forever. But I can go and sit in my back garden with a nice cup of tea in my back garden with a nice cup of tea in my back garden with a nice cup of tea and I can make time slow down just by and I can make time slow down just by and I can make time slow down just by noticing, just by being aware, just by noticing, just by being aware, just by noticing, just by being aware, just by not scrolling on my phone, just by not scrolling on my phone, just by not scrolling on my phone, just by slowing everything down and looking at slowing everything down and looking at slowing everything down and looking at little details that I maybe hadn't seen little details that I maybe hadn't seen little details that I maybe hadn't seen before. And I found that quite amazing. before. And I found that quite amazing. before. And I found that quite amazing. I know it sounds very simple, but I got I know it sounds very simple, but I got I know it sounds very simple, but I got a bit fascinated by time after that. a bit fascinated by time after that. a bit fascinated by time after that. >> No, I I love it, Jenna. It's >> No, I I love it, Jenna. It's >> No, I I love it, Jenna. It's exactly the kind of stuff I spend a lot exactly the kind of stuff I spend a lot exactly the kind of stuff I spend a lot of time thinking about these days. of time thinking about these days. of time thinking about these days. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And >> And >> And it was quite striking. I've been it was quite striking. I've been it was quite striking. I've been thinking about reaching out to you for a thinking about reaching out to you for a thinking about reaching out to you for a few months. I keep thinking I must get few months. I keep thinking I must get few months. I keep thinking I must get Jenna back on at some point. Jenna back on at some point. Jenna back on at some point. And then I got your latest book, Immune And then I got your latest book, Immune And then I got your latest book, Immune to Age, to Age, to Age, and I was gripped from the introduction. and I was gripped from the introduction. and I was gripped from the introduction. I thought, "This feels like a different I thought, "This feels like a different I thought, "This feels like a different Jenner to the Jenner who came into my Jenner to the Jenner who came into my Jenner to the Jenner who came into my studio back in 2020." studio back in 2020." studio back in 2020." >> And then as I started reading and >> And then as I started reading and >> And then as I started reading and listening to some of your other more listening to some of your other more listening to some of your other more recent interviews, I thought, "Wow, recent interviews, I thought, "Wow, recent interviews, I thought, "Wow, you've been through some quite you've been through some quite you've been through some quite significant life changes significant life changes significant life changes >> since I last saw you, which I think is >> since I last saw you, which I think is >> since I last saw you, which I think is beautifully reflected in your writing." beautifully reflected in your writing." beautifully reflected in your writing." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Let's talk about that as much as you're Let's talk about that as much as you're Let's talk about that as much as you're open to share as to what has changed in open to share as to what has changed in open to share as to what has changed in you since our first conversation. you since our first conversation. you since our first conversation. But also it makes me think of like But also it makes me think of like But also it makes me think of like almost the middle part of the book where almost the middle part of the book where almost the middle part of the book where you talk about midlife you talk about midlife you talk about midlife >> and midlife being this really important >> and midlife being this really important >> and midlife being this really important I guess stage in our life where you you I guess stage in our life where you you I guess stage in our life where you you actually say don't you beyond the age of actually say don't you beyond the age of actually say don't you beyond the age of 40 there's a meaningful change in your 40 there's a meaningful change in your 40 there's a meaningful change in your biology at 40 as well as perhaps your biology at 40 as well as perhaps your biology at 40 as well as perhaps your psychology. psychology. psychology. >> So can we sort of go I was going to go >> So can we sort of go I was going to go >> So can we sort of go I was going to go into this a bit later but I think now into this a bit later but I think now into this a bit later but I think now seems like the right time to go in seems like the right time to go in seems like the right time to go in there. there. there. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think it was um the >> Yeah. Yeah. I think it was um the >> Yeah. Yeah. I think it was um the queen's when the queen died. Uh I I queen's when the queen died. Uh I I queen's when the queen died. Uh I I can't remember exactly when that was and can't remember exactly when that was and can't remember exactly when that was and I was kind of just on my laptop and I was kind of just on my laptop and I was kind of just on my laptop and there was this lots of news stories there was this lots of news stories there was this lots of news stories about it and this little online about it and this little online about it and this little online calculator. It was like a fun playful calculator. It was like a fun playful calculator. It was like a fun playful you type in all this stuff about your you type in all this stuff about your you type in all this stuff about your age, demographics, etc. And and a number age, demographics, etc. And and a number age, demographics, etc. And and a number would pop out to tell you about when you would pop out to tell you about when you would pop out to tell you about when you might live to because obviously the might live to because obviously the might live to because obviously the queen lived a very long life. So the a queen lived a very long life. So the a queen lived a very long life. So the a lot of the news stories were around lot of the news stories were around lot of the news stories were around that. So, I was just mindlessly doing that. So, I was just mindlessly doing that. So, I was just mindlessly doing this and then this number popped out and this and then this number popped out and this and then this number popped out and I was like, "Oh my god, my life's half I was like, "Oh my god, my life's half I was like, "Oh my god, my life's half over." And it took something as silly as over." And it took something as silly as over." And it took something as silly as that for me to be like, there's so much that for me to be like, there's so much that for me to be like, there's so much that it feels misaligned. And I think that it feels misaligned. And I think that it feels misaligned. And I think that we only have time and energy. Those that we only have time and energy. Those that we only have time and energy. Those are kind of the two units of stuff that are kind of the two units of stuff that are kind of the two units of stuff that we have to work with. And when you're we have to work with. And when you're we have to work with. And when you're not, the only word I can think to not, the only word I can think to not, the only word I can think to describe it is alignment. like when describe it is alignment. like when describe it is alignment. like when you're living in alignment, you're what you're living in alignment, you're what you're living in alignment, you're what you believe in, what you enjoy, and your you believe in, what you enjoy, and your you believe in, what you enjoy, and your value system, and it's all wrapped up in value system, and it's all wrapped up in value system, and it's all wrapped up in your day-to-day. And I just felt really your day-to-day. And I just felt really your day-to-day. And I just felt really misaligned and then sort of from that misaligned and then sort of from that misaligned and then sort of from that point onwards I threw some grenades into point onwards I threw some grenades into point onwards I threw some grenades into my life and like left my job, left my my life and like left my job, left my my life and like left my job, left my marriage, like just blew up everything marriage, like just blew up everything marriage, like just blew up everything which I don't know if it was the right which I don't know if it was the right which I don't know if it was the right thing to do or not but um uh then kind thing to do or not but um uh then kind thing to do or not but um uh then kind of dug myself out of the debris and it of dug myself out of the debris and it of dug myself out of the debris and it was the biggest teacher I think but it was the biggest teacher I think but it was the biggest teacher I think but it made me make changes that made me feel made me make changes that made me feel made me make changes that made me feel more aligned and then by virtue of that more aligned and then by virtue of that more aligned and then by virtue of that I got more energy. I felt more alive. I I got more energy. I felt more alive. I I got more energy. I felt more alive. I had more space to slow down. I had less had more space to slow down. I had less had more space to slow down. I had less need to mindlessly scroll or distract need to mindlessly scroll or distract need to mindlessly scroll or distract myself. I would be able to sit in the myself. I would be able to sit in the myself. I would be able to sit in the garden and just look at the trees and garden and just look at the trees and garden and just look at the trees and like notice the leaves and do that all like notice the leaves and do that all like notice the leaves and do that all season round and um did a lot of season round and um did a lot of season round and um did a lot of meditation too. And it was after years meditation too. And it was after years meditation too. And it was after years of wanting to meditate and being I can't of wanting to meditate and being I can't of wanting to meditate and being I can't was like I can't not. Um but I'm I'm was like I can't not. Um but I'm I'm was like I can't not. Um but I'm I'm pleased to have gone through it was all pleased to have gone through it was all pleased to have gone through it was all very hard but uh and the book kind of very hard but uh and the book kind of very hard but uh and the book kind of was birthed out of that which is why you was birthed out of that which is why you was birthed out of that which is why you know science is stories. It started off know science is stories. It started off know science is stories. It started off as stories um you know people living in as stories um you know people living in as stories um you know people living in villages sharing don't eat that plant it villages sharing don't eat that plant it villages sharing don't eat that plant it might kill you or use this as a medicine might kill you or use this as a medicine might kill you or use this as a medicine to to cure you. It was sharing stories to to cure you. It was sharing stories to to cure you. It was sharing stories that we've now built into this you know that we've now built into this you know that we've now built into this you know peerreview system and evidence-based but peerreview system and evidence-based but peerreview system and evidence-based but there's something very human about there's something very human about there's something very human about stories. I found myself numb to people stories. I found myself numb to people stories. I found myself numb to people telling me information. We get so much telling me information. We get so much telling me information. We get so much information now, but we've lost agency information now, but we've lost agency information now, but we've lost agency over our lives. And I think I had to over our lives. And I think I had to over our lives. And I think I had to regain agency and sort of switch off all regain agency and sort of switch off all regain agency and sort of switch off all the information for a while. So, I tried the information for a while. So, I tried the information for a while. So, I tried to weave some of my own personal stories to weave some of my own personal stories to weave some of my own personal stories into the book as well alongside the into the book as well alongside the into the book as well alongside the science and stories about scientists science and stories about scientists science and stories about scientists who've shaped a lot of the discoveries who've shaped a lot of the discoveries who've shaped a lot of the discoveries that I discuss. that I discuss. that I discuss. >> Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Um, it >> Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Um, it >> Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Um, it definitely helps me understand definitely helps me understand definitely helps me understand how and why the tone of this book, I how and why the tone of this book, I how and why the tone of this book, I would say, is quite different from your would say, is quite different from your would say, is quite different from your first two. first two. first two. >> And it's certainly, you know, where I'm >> And it's certainly, you know, where I'm >> And it's certainly, you know, where I'm at in my life. So, I very much resonate at in my life. So, I very much resonate at in my life. So, I very much resonate with this. I, as I said to you, when you with this. I, as I said to you, when you with this. I, as I said to you, when you walked into my house this morning, that walked into my house this morning, that walked into my house this morning, that >> there's less of the what. There there is >> there's less of the what. There there is >> there's less of the what. There there is plenty of what in this book in terms of plenty of what in this book in terms of plenty of what in this book in terms of what can you do to help improve your what can you do to help improve your what can you do to help improve your immune system health. immune system health. immune system health. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But there's a lot of the why. I mean, >> But there's a lot of the why. I mean, >> But there's a lot of the why. I mean, why should you care? why should you care? why should you care? >> Yeah. Why? Why should you do these >> Yeah. Why? Why should you do these >> Yeah. Why? Why should you do these things? Why in a in a limited time things? Why in a in a limited time things? Why in a in a limited time budget, budget, budget, >> why should you spend your time actually >> why should you spend your time actually >> why should you spend your time actually doing these things? doing these things? doing these things? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And as you as you eloquently put in the >> And as you as you eloquently put in the >> And as you as you eloquently put in the introduction, it's introduction, it's introduction, it's >> the conversation around longevity is >> the conversation around longevity is >> the conversation around longevity is both science and philosophy. both science and philosophy. both science and philosophy. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> You can't just look at it through the >> You can't just look at it through the >> You can't just look at it through the lens of science or you know these this lens of science or you know these this lens of science or you know these this is how you should eat, this is how you is how you should eat, this is how you is how you should eat, this is how you should move, you know this is how many should move, you know this is how many should move, you know this is how many hours sleep you should get. Okay, great. hours sleep you should get. Okay, great. hours sleep you should get. Okay, great. Helpful. Helpful. Helpful. >> Yeah. And if you don't have the bigger >> Yeah. And if you don't have the bigger >> Yeah. And if you don't have the bigger why, if you're not living in alignment why, if you're not living in alignment why, if you're not living in alignment of figuring out why should you do those of figuring out why should you do those of figuring out why should you do those things things things >> purely on a behavioral change aspect, >> purely on a behavioral change aspect, >> purely on a behavioral change aspect, I think this is one of the main reasons I think this is one of the main reasons I think this is one of the main reasons why people can't make habits stick in why people can't make habits stick in why people can't make habits stick in the long term. I think about behavior the long term. I think about behavior the long term. I think about behavior change in in two levels. There's, you change in in two levels. There's, you change in in two levels. There's, you know, tricks for habits, right? Make it know, tricks for habits, right? Make it know, tricks for habits, right? Make it easy, stick it onto an existing habit, easy, stick it onto an existing habit, easy, stick it onto an existing habit, you know, design your environment in a you know, design your environment in a you know, design your environment in a way that supports the behavior you want. way that supports the behavior you want. way that supports the behavior you want. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> Those things are very very helpful. >> Those things are very very helpful. >> Those things are very very helpful. And I think there's a much deeper level And I think there's a much deeper level And I think there's a much deeper level to behavior change that we don't think to behavior change that we don't think to behavior change that we don't think about enough. about enough. about enough. And I I really strongly have found that And I I really strongly have found that And I I really strongly have found that people's behaviors people's behaviors people's behaviors will always end up matching the person will always end up matching the person will always end up matching the person who they believe themselves to be. who they believe themselves to be. who they believe themselves to be. >> Yes. 100%. Yeah. So you can try every >> Yes. 100%. Yeah. So you can try every >> Yes. 100%. Yeah. So you can try every January to change things, but if you January to change things, but if you January to change things, but if you don't fundamentally change how you see don't fundamentally change how you see don't fundamentally change how you see yourself, how you value yourself, as you yourself, how you value yourself, as you yourself, how you value yourself, as you say, say, say, >> living in alignment, >> living in alignment, >> living in alignment, >> you may find that that's the reason you >> you may find that that's the reason you >> you may find that that's the reason you can't make these habits stick because can't make these habits stick because can't make these habits stick because there's a slight there's a slight there's a slight >> disconnect. >> disconnect. >> disconnect. >> 100%. And actually in my second book, I >> 100%. And actually in my second book, I >> 100%. And actually in my second book, I I remember reading this study. It was I remember reading this study. It was I remember reading this study. It was actually a weight loss study, but I actually a weight loss study, but I actually a weight loss study, but I think it is useful to illustrate the think it is useful to illustrate the think it is useful to illustrate the point. Um and they looked at people who point. Um and they looked at people who point. Um and they looked at people who went on a weight loss journey and then went on a weight loss journey and then went on a weight loss journey and then successfully maintained that weight loss successfully maintained that weight loss successfully maintained that weight loss uh versus people who didn't manage to. uh versus people who didn't manage to. uh versus people who didn't manage to. And one of the things that they found And one of the things that they found And one of the things that they found was most consistent was that they was most consistent was that they was most consistent was that they changed their entire perception of changed their entire perception of changed their entire perception of themselves. They had a they gave themselves. They had a they gave themselves. They had a they gave themselves a new identity. So the that themselves a new identity. So the that themselves a new identity. So the that whole story that we we I mean everything whole story that we we I mean everything whole story that we we I mean everything is a story that we tell ourselves but is a story that we tell ourselves but is a story that we tell ourselves but they managed to completely change. I am they managed to completely change. I am they managed to completely change. I am not the person that does that. I am the not the person that does that. I am the not the person that does that. I am the person that does this. Um, and then they person that does this. Um, and then they person that does this. Um, and then they changed their life around that. And I changed their life around that. And I changed their life around that. And I think we can be told like this is what think we can be told like this is what think we can be told like this is what healthy diet looks like, but we still healthy diet looks like, but we still healthy diet looks like, but we still don't manage to do that. And that's don't manage to do that. And that's don't manage to do that. And that's because of those deeper layers of like, because of those deeper layers of like, because of those deeper layers of like, you know, we need to unpick and unpack. you know, we need to unpick and unpack. you know, we need to unpick and unpack. >> Your behavior matches your beliefs. >> Your behavior matches your beliefs. >> Your behavior matches your beliefs. >> You know, how you view yourself, the >> You know, how you view yourself, the >> You know, how you view yourself, the identity which you hold has certain identity which you hold has certain identity which you hold has certain behaviors that are attached to it. behaviors that are attached to it. behaviors that are attached to it. >> Yes. 100%. the only way I I you know and >> Yes. 100%. the only way I I you know and >> Yes. 100%. the only way I I you know and I think this doesn't get spoken about I think this doesn't get spoken about I think this doesn't get spoken about enough cuz it's much easier to talk enough cuz it's much easier to talk enough cuz it's much easier to talk about you know little tricks for habits about you know little tricks for habits about you know little tricks for habits and I do as well and they're helpful. and I do as well and they're helpful. and I do as well and they're helpful. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Up to a point. >> Up to a point. >> Up to a point. >> Yeah. Exactly. That's kind of where I've >> Yeah. Exactly. That's kind of where I've >> Yeah. Exactly. That's kind of where I've got to especially with the social media got to especially with the social media got to especially with the social media and the amount of information and health and the amount of information and health and the amount of information and health and wellness information. Like I'm not and wellness information. Like I'm not and wellness information. Like I'm not sure it's actually helping people. I sure it's actually helping people. I sure it's actually helping people. I think people need to get regain agency think people need to get regain agency think people need to get regain agency and I think that's by really having and I think that's by really having and I think that's by really having those conversations with yourself, those conversations with yourself, those conversations with yourself, getting to know yourself and to be for getting to know yourself and to be for getting to know yourself and to be for me that could only happen in stillness me that could only happen in stillness me that could only happen in stillness when I wasn't distracting myself with when I wasn't distracting myself with when I wasn't distracting myself with busyness or the phone or another busyness or the phone or another busyness or the phone or another project. It was sitting with yourself project. It was sitting with yourself project. It was sitting with yourself and I you know many of us think about and I you know many of us think about and I you know many of us think about meditation as being like getting into meditation as being like getting into meditation as being like getting into this calm zen place but it's not. It's this calm zen place but it's not. It's this calm zen place but it's not. It's really observing how nuts your mind can really observing how nuts your mind can really observing how nuts your mind can be and then observing it again and again be and then observing it again and again be and then observing it again and again and again until you start to be able to and again until you start to be able to and again until you start to be able to get control of that sort of monkey brain get control of that sort of monkey brain get control of that sort of monkey brain and then you know not uh sort of and then you know not uh sort of and then you know not uh sort of sleepwalk through your life which is I sleepwalk through your life which is I sleepwalk through your life which is I think you know where I got to where you think you know where I got to where you think you know where I got to where you you you are unconscious to your you you are unconscious to your you you are unconscious to your behaviors. behaviors. behaviors. >> Yeah. and then you see them and you >> Yeah. and then you see them and you >> Yeah. and then you see them and you can't unsee them and slowly by just can't unsee them and slowly by just can't unsee them and slowly by just repetition you get there. repetition you get there. repetition you get there. >> We'll come back to your personal story >> We'll come back to your personal story >> We'll come back to your personal story maybe a bit later. Um maybe a bit later. Um maybe a bit later. Um >> I do want to talk about >> I do want to talk about >> I do want to talk about >> practical things that people can do when >> practical things that people can do when >> practical things that people can do when it comes to improving the health of it comes to improving the health of it comes to improving the health of their immune system because as we've their immune system because as we've their immune system because as we've already said immune system sits at the already said immune system sits at the already said immune system sits at the heart heart heart >> of probably everything you want from >> of probably everything you want from >> of probably everything you want from your health. You can make a case that your health. You can make a case that your health. You can make a case that good immune system health good immune system health good immune system health >> is necessary for that. >> is necessary for that. >> is necessary for that. >> We just spoke there about identities. So >> We just spoke there about identities. So >> We just spoke there about identities. So why don't we start off by talking about why don't we start off by talking about why don't we start off by talking about >> self-compassion, how we talk to >> self-compassion, how we talk to >> self-compassion, how we talk to ourselves because there's some really ourselves because there's some really ourselves because there's some really interesting research, isn't there interesting research, isn't there interesting research, isn't there showing how uh people who are more showing how uh people who are more showing how uh people who are more compassionate to themselves, yes, compassionate to themselves, yes, compassionate to themselves, yes, >> have better functioning of their immune >> have better functioning of their immune >> have better functioning of their immune system. Yes, this is a a really lovely system. Yes, this is a a really lovely system. Yes, this is a a really lovely study that was done and I um it study that was done and I um it study that was done and I um it resonated with me and certainly was my resonated with me and certainly was my resonated with me and certainly was my introduction to to self-compassion, introduction to to self-compassion, introduction to to self-compassion, which is sort of having a sense of which is sort of having a sense of which is sort of having a sense of common humanity, how we speak to common humanity, how we speak to common humanity, how we speak to ourselves, sort of um having the ourselves, sort of um having the ourselves, sort of um having the compassion for yourself as you would for compassion for yourself as you would for compassion for yourself as you would for a good friend. Um, and there's sort of a good friend. Um, and there's sort of a good friend. Um, and there's sort of several different techniques that you several different techniques that you several different techniques that you can find to sort of help you develop can find to sort of help you develop can find to sort of help you develop this, but they looked at they're looking this, but they looked at they're looking this, but they looked at they're looking at blood markers. So, a sort of at blood markers. So, a sort of at blood markers. So, a sort of empirical readout of your immune system. empirical readout of your immune system. empirical readout of your immune system. And particularly, they were interested And particularly, they were interested And particularly, they were interested in unwanted inflammation. So, in unwanted inflammation. So, in unwanted inflammation. So, inflammation is your immune system sort inflammation is your immune system sort inflammation is your immune system sort of weapon of defense. So, when it wants of weapon of defense. So, when it wants of weapon of defense. So, when it wants to remove something from your body or to remove something from your body or to remove something from your body or heal or repair damage, it will pull out heal or repair damage, it will pull out heal or repair damage, it will pull out inflammation. So, it's very, very inflammation. So, it's very, very inflammation. So, it's very, very useful. It's keeps us alive. It's the useful. It's keeps us alive. It's the useful. It's keeps us alive. It's the reason we haven't died out as a species. reason we haven't died out as a species. reason we haven't died out as a species. But over time that can get a bit leaky But over time that can get a bit leaky But over time that can get a bit leaky and your immune system will react to and your immune system will react to and your immune system will react to things it shouldn't with inflammation. things it shouldn't with inflammation. things it shouldn't with inflammation. And as much as it's helpful, it has a And as much as it's helpful, it has a And as much as it's helpful, it has a bit of collateral damage. Um, you know, bit of collateral damage. Um, you know, bit of collateral damage. Um, you know, that's flowing through your blood that's flowing through your blood that's flowing through your blood vessels. Um, that's going to be like vessels. Um, that's going to be like vessels. Um, that's going to be like causing a bit of oxidative stress. Like causing a bit of oxidative stress. Like causing a bit of oxidative stress. Like there's a sort of collateral damage to there's a sort of collateral damage to there's a sort of collateral damage to unwanted inflammation. But by teaching unwanted inflammation. But by teaching unwanted inflammation. But by teaching self-compassion and I think this self-compassion and I think this self-compassion and I think this intervention was done over six or eight intervention was done over six or eight intervention was done over six or eight weeks um they found that they could help weeks um they found that they could help weeks um they found that they could help people lower unwanted inflammation people lower unwanted inflammation people lower unwanted inflammation because if your sort of thoughts are because if your sort of thoughts are because if your sort of thoughts are wrapped up in how your body is wrapped up in how your body is wrapped up in how your body is physically behaving then your your you physically behaving then your your you physically behaving then your your you know your mental health and physical know your mental health and physical know your mental health and physical health are are to me now one and the health are are to me now one and the health are are to me now one and the same like almost can't speak of them same like almost can't speak of them same like almost can't speak of them separately and if you think of the separately and if you think of the separately and if you think of the nervous system is there to protect you nervous system is there to protect you nervous system is there to protect you and keep you safe your immune system is and keep you safe your immune system is and keep you safe your immune system is there to protect you and keep you safe. there to protect you and keep you safe. there to protect you and keep you safe. These two systems are integrated and These two systems are integrated and These two systems are integrated and working together. So, if you're always working together. So, if you're always working together. So, if you're always in fear, always like speaking in a in fear, always like speaking in a in fear, always like speaking in a negative voice to yourself, your immune negative voice to yourself, your immune negative voice to yourself, your immune system is getting that message that system is getting that message that system is getting that message that there's something bad, like I need to be there's something bad, like I need to be there's something bad, like I need to be prepared for for danger or damage. I prepared for for danger or damage. I prepared for for danger or damage. I need to keep this person safe. The only need to keep this person safe. The only need to keep this person safe. The only weapon I've got is inflammation. I'm weapon I've got is inflammation. I'm weapon I've got is inflammation. I'm going to whip that out. Whereas when going to whip that out. Whereas when going to whip that out. Whereas when we're more compassionate, we get a sense we're more compassionate, we get a sense we're more compassionate, we get a sense of sort of safety and the immune system of sort of safety and the immune system of sort of safety and the immune system can calm down and come back into can calm down and come back into can calm down and come back into balance. balance. balance. >> Yeah. It goes back to what we said >> Yeah. It goes back to what we said >> Yeah. It goes back to what we said earlier, doesn't it? That the immune earlier, doesn't it? That the immune earlier, doesn't it? That the immune system is built and it is shaped system is built and it is shaped system is built and it is shaped >> through the input that we give it >> through the input that we give it >> through the input that we give it >> via the way we live our lives. And that >> via the way we live our lives. And that >> via the way we live our lives. And that also includes the voice inside our also includes the voice inside our also includes the voice inside our heads. heads. heads. >> Yes. And I think when we get that >> Yes. And I think when we get that >> Yes. And I think when we get that awareness and then it feels really kind awareness and then it feels really kind awareness and then it feels really kind of icky to to change that because you're of icky to to change that because you're of icky to to change that because you're so used to this sort of negative selft so used to this sort of negative selft so used to this sort of negative selft talk and then to switch to something talk and then to switch to something talk and then to switch to something more positive but it's just iteration more positive but it's just iteration more positive but it's just iteration over time keep doing it and then it over time keep doing it and then it over time keep doing it and then it becomes more normal and you start to becomes more normal and you start to becomes more normal and you start to accept it and you don't have to go wild accept it and you don't have to go wild accept it and you don't have to go wild and sort of big yourself up but it's and sort of big yourself up but it's and sort of big yourself up but it's just like oh you made a mistake that just like oh you made a mistake that just like oh you made a mistake that that's part of life you know chalk it up that's part of life you know chalk it up that's part of life you know chalk it up take the learnings and then move on. And take the learnings and then move on. And take the learnings and then move on. And I think when I went through some very I think when I went through some very I think when I went through some very difficult chapters of my life, it was difficult chapters of my life, it was difficult chapters of my life, it was like like like >> you could easily spiral into like, oh, >> you could easily spiral into like, oh, >> you could easily spiral into like, oh, I've just destroyed everything. What's I've just destroyed everything. What's I've just destroyed everything. What's the point? Or you can be like, wow, the point? Or you can be like, wow, the point? Or you can be like, wow, there's a lot to learn. I've got another there's a lot to learn. I've got another there's a lot to learn. I've got another opportunity to take those learnings opportunity to take those learnings opportunity to take those learnings forward and keep going. And that was forward and keep going. And that was forward and keep going. And that was kind of like night and day for how I kind of like night and day for how I kind of like night and day for how I felt for my ability to get out of bed in felt for my ability to get out of bed in felt for my ability to get out of bed in the morning and function and show up for the morning and function and show up for the morning and function and show up for myself, for my children, um, and and my myself, for my children, um, and and my myself, for my children, um, and and my health. Like it's the difference between health. Like it's the difference between health. Like it's the difference between physical pain that I experienced in my physical pain that I experienced in my physical pain that I experienced in my body because I was not feeling safe. So body because I was not feeling safe. So body because I was not feeling safe. So I was like bracing all the time and I was like bracing all the time and I was like bracing all the time and someone who's really fit and active. I someone who's really fit and active. I someone who's really fit and active. I started suffering with back pain and started suffering with back pain and started suffering with back pain and just from like not realizing that I was just from like not realizing that I was just from like not realizing that I was always bracing for something dangerous always bracing for something dangerous always bracing for something dangerous to happen. It affected my posture. So to happen. It affected my posture. So to happen. It affected my posture. So then I'm not feeling confident because then I'm not feeling confident because then I'm not feeling confident because I'm like slouch like this. And even if I'm like slouch like this. And even if I'm like slouch like this. And even if we just roll our shoulders back, you we just roll our shoulders back, you we just roll our shoulders back, you feel more confident just by moving your feel more confident just by moving your feel more confident just by moving your body. body. body. >> So, it's this I can't even separate mind >> So, it's this I can't even separate mind >> So, it's this I can't even separate mind and body anymore. To me, it's like and body anymore. To me, it's like and body anymore. To me, it's like they're the same. they're the same. they're the same. >> Yeah. I don't even like the terms >> Yeah. I don't even like the terms >> Yeah. I don't even like the terms physical health and mental health physical health and mental health physical health and mental health anymore. I've anymore. I've anymore. I've >> almost stopped using they they slip in >> almost stopped using they they slip in >> almost stopped using they they slip in because, you know, you're conditioned a because, you know, you're conditioned a because, you know, you're conditioned a certain way, but certain way, but certain way, but >> people understand them. >> people understand them. >> people understand them. >> People understand them. So, there's >> People understand them. So, there's >> People understand them. So, there's there's always the challenge between there's always the challenge between there's always the challenge between >> what's easy to communicate. Yes. >> what's easy to communicate. Yes. >> what's easy to communicate. Yes. >> Versus what is >> Versus what is >> Versus what is >> totally accurate. You know, you could >> totally accurate. You know, you could >> totally accurate. You know, you could make the same case with boosting an make the same case with boosting an make the same case with boosting an immune system. immune system. immune system. >> You know, this idea that boosting your >> You know, this idea that boosting your >> You know, this idea that boosting your immune system, which I think you're not immune system, which I think you're not immune system, which I think you're not a huge fan of as as a terminology, and I a huge fan of as as a terminology, and I a huge fan of as as a terminology, and I understand why understand why understand why >> at the same time, I think the flip side >> at the same time, I think the flip side >> at the same time, I think the flip side to that is is that I think a lot of to that is is that I think a lot of to that is is that I think a lot of people understand it as being I want to people understand it as being I want to people understand it as being I want to improve my immune system function. improve my immune system function. improve my immune system function. >> Yeah. So if I sleep 8 hours compared to >> Yeah. So if I sleep 8 hours compared to >> Yeah. So if I sleep 8 hours compared to 5 hours and my natural killer cells go 5 hours and my natural killer cells go 5 hours and my natural killer cells go up by 40 or 50%. up by 40 or 50%. up by 40 or 50%. >> I think I I would say it's reasonable to >> I think I I would say it's reasonable to >> I think I I would say it's reasonable to say boost that because I think you've say boost that because I think you've say boost that because I think you've boosted the number killer cells but I I boosted the number killer cells but I I boosted the number killer cells but I I understand also that we want to talk understand also that we want to talk understand also that we want to talk more about balance. I mean do you want more about balance. I mean do you want more about balance. I mean do you want to just speak to that for a moment? to just speak to that for a moment? to just speak to that for a moment? >> Yeah. I I'm always really compassionate >> Yeah. I I'm always really compassionate >> Yeah. I I'm always really compassionate when people ask me. It's usually like a when people ask me. It's usually like a when people ask me. It's usually like a friend or or maybe someone on my friend or or maybe someone on my friend or or maybe someone on my Instagram or a journalist. And I'm like, Instagram or a journalist. And I'm like, Instagram or a journalist. And I'm like, I know what you mean, but if you quote I know what you mean, but if you quote I know what you mean, but if you quote me as saying boosted, everyone's going me as saying boosted, everyone's going me as saying boosted, everyone's going to come after me and be like, you can't to come after me and be like, you can't to come after me and be like, you can't boost your immune system. But I'm like, boost your immune system. But I'm like, boost your immune system. But I'm like, I know what you mean. You want to, you I know what you mean. You want to, you I know what you mean. You want to, you know, we're going into winter. You want know, we're going into winter. You want know, we're going into winter. You want to avoid colds. You want to, you know, to avoid colds. You want to, you know, to avoid colds. You want to, you know, be resilient to whatever is going be resilient to whatever is going be resilient to whatever is going around. Um, but you know, when you turn around. Um, but you know, when you turn around. Um, but you know, when you turn the immune system on, it means you're the immune system on, it means you're the immune system on, it means you're usually turning on one of the different usually turning on one of the different usually turning on one of the different flavors of inflammation to remove flavors of inflammation to remove flavors of inflammation to remove something. So, that's good in the short something. So, that's good in the short something. So, that's good in the short term. You might have a virus, get rid of term. You might have a virus, get rid of term. You might have a virus, get rid of the virus. You might have an injury and the virus. You might have an injury and the virus. You might have an injury and you want to heal and repair that tissue, you want to heal and repair that tissue, you want to heal and repair that tissue, but then you need to turn it off again but then you need to turn it off again but then you need to turn it off again when that process is finished. And if when that process is finished. And if when that process is finished. And if you don't turn it off in a timely you don't turn it off in a timely you don't turn it off in a timely fashion, then it's going to linger and fashion, then it's going to linger and fashion, then it's going to linger and you get problems because inflammation, you get problems because inflammation, you get problems because inflammation, as I said, is is inherently damaging. as I said, is is inherently damaging. as I said, is is inherently damaging. It's just meant to be a short short It's just meant to be a short short It's just meant to be a short short term. It's like the stress response. You term. It's like the stress response. You term. It's like the stress response. You know, I want to run to safety and my know, I want to run to safety and my know, I want to run to safety and my heartbeat is racing and like blood sugar heartbeat is racing and like blood sugar heartbeat is racing and like blood sugar is filling, my veins is is motivating me is filling, my veins is is motivating me is filling, my veins is is motivating me to safety, but then oh, now I'm at the to safety, but then oh, now I'm at the to safety, but then oh, now I'm at the other side of the road or wherever. uh other side of the road or wherever. uh other side of the road or wherever. uh everything needs to be able to calm back everything needs to be able to calm back everything needs to be able to calm back down to baseline in a really nice timely down to baseline in a really nice timely down to baseline in a really nice timely fashion and if it doesn't then you end fashion and if it doesn't then you end fashion and if it doesn't then you end up you know it in some sort of anxiety up you know it in some sort of anxiety up you know it in some sort of anxiety spiral. So it's a similar thing with spiral. So it's a similar thing with spiral. So it's a similar thing with inflammation like you don't need to have inflammation like you don't need to have inflammation like you don't need to have the immune system in one state all the the immune system in one state all the the immune system in one state all the time. It needs to be responsive and then time. It needs to be responsive and then time. It needs to be responsive and then it needs to come back. It's like the it needs to come back. It's like the it needs to come back. It's like the nervous system needs to respond and come nervous system needs to respond and come nervous system needs to respond and come back. We have to be able to you know we back. We have to be able to you know we back. We have to be able to you know we don't know what danger is around the don't know what danger is around the don't know what danger is around the corner. We don't know what healing and corner. We don't know what healing and corner. We don't know what healing and repair we will need, but we need to be repair we will need, but we need to be repair we will need, but we need to be able to be ready and then also back to able to be ready and then also back to able to be ready and then also back to baseline. baseline. baseline. >> One of the simplest ways to improve your >> One of the simplest ways to improve your >> One of the simplest ways to improve your whole body health is to start with your whole body health is to start with your whole body health is to start with your feet. Now, most of us don't realize feet. Now, most of us don't realize feet. Now, most of us don't realize this, but 95% of us are born with this, but 95% of us are born with this, but 95% of us are born with healthy feet. And by adulthood, 77% of healthy feet. And by adulthood, 77% of healthy feet. And by adulthood, 77% of us have foot problems. And a big reason us have foot problems. And a big reason us have foot problems. And a big reason is the shoes that we wear. Now, most is the shoes that we wear. Now, most is the shoes that we wear. Now, most modern shoes are rigid, narrow, and over modern shoes are rigid, narrow, and over modern shoes are rigid, narrow, and over cushioned, which ends up weakening the cushioned, which ends up weakening the cushioned, which ends up weakening the very muscles that support our posture, very muscles that support our posture, very muscles that support our posture, balance, and movement. That's why I have balance, and movement. That's why I have balance, and movement. That's why I have been wearing Vivo Barefoot shoes for been wearing Vivo Barefoot shoes for been wearing Vivo Barefoot shoes for over 10 years now. They're designed for over 10 years now. They're designed for over 10 years now. They're designed for fit, flex, and feel to let your feet do fit, flex, and feel to let your feet do fit, flex, and feel to let your feet do what human feet have evolved to do. And what human feet have evolved to do. And what human feet have evolved to do. And studies show that wearing minimalist studies show that wearing minimalist studies show that wearing minimalist footwear like Vivos can increase foot footwear like Vivos can increase foot footwear like Vivos can increase foot strength by up to 60% in just six strength by up to 60% in just six strength by up to 60% in just six months, which can improve balance, months, which can improve balance, months, which can improve balance, posture, and the way in which you move. posture, and the way in which you move. posture, and the way in which you move. Now, if you've never tried barefoot Now, if you've never tried barefoot Now, if you've never tried barefoot shoes before, Vivo Barefoot make it shoes before, Vivo Barefoot make it shoes before, Vivo Barefoot make it really easy. They offer a 100day money really easy. They offer a 100day money really easy. They offer a 100day money back guarantee, so you can wear them, back guarantee, so you can wear them, back guarantee, so you can wear them, live in them, move naturally, and if live in them, move naturally, and if live in them, move naturally, and if they're not for you, just send them they're not for you, just send them they're not for you, just send them back. No risk at all. Vivo Barefoot are back. No risk at all. Vivo Barefoot are back. No risk at all. Vivo Barefoot are offering you an incredible 15% off your offering you an incredible 15% off your offering you an incredible 15% off your first order. Just scan the QR code on first order. Just scan the QR code on first order. Just scan the QR code on screen or head to screen or head to screen or head to vivobarefoot.com/livemore. In terms of practical things then that In terms of practical things then that we can think about doing to support our we can think about doing to support our we can think about doing to support our immune system health. immune system health. immune system health. >> We've just mentioned self-compassion >> We've just mentioned self-compassion >> We've just mentioned self-compassion being one of those. being one of those. being one of those. >> You've just mentioned stress and the >> You've just mentioned stress and the >> You've just mentioned stress and the stress response and also how over the stress response and also how over the stress response and also how over the past years it sounds as though you've past years it sounds as though you've past years it sounds as though you've introduced meditation into your life. introduced meditation into your life. introduced meditation into your life. >> Mh. Perhaps let's move on to stress and >> Mh. Perhaps let's move on to stress and >> Mh. Perhaps let's move on to stress and think about what is the impact of think about what is the impact of think about what is the impact of chronic unmanaged stress on our immune chronic unmanaged stress on our immune chronic unmanaged stress on our immune systems systems systems >> and then what are some of the practical >> and then what are some of the practical >> and then what are some of the practical things we can do like for example you do things we can do like for example you do things we can do like for example you do meditation I'd be interested to know meditation I'd be interested to know meditation I'd be interested to know >> if you think meditation has a positive >> if you think meditation has a positive >> if you think meditation has a positive impact on your immune system impact on your immune system impact on your immune system >> yeah I think stress is just this >> yeah I think stress is just this >> yeah I think stress is just this pervasive thing that is everywhere pervasive thing that is everywhere pervasive thing that is everywhere whenever I speak to friends it's like whenever I speak to friends it's like whenever I speak to friends it's like we're all stressed best all of the time, we're all stressed best all of the time, we're all stressed best all of the time, but nobody quite knows how to stop it. but nobody quite knows how to stop it. but nobody quite knows how to stop it. And a lot of the tips And a lot of the tips And a lot of the tips inherently are usually useful and have inherently are usually useful and have inherently are usually useful and have some evidence, but they're often kind of some evidence, but they're often kind of some evidence, but they're often kind of in a self-care bucket, and it makes you in a self-care bucket, and it makes you in a self-care bucket, and it makes you as this selfisolated as this selfisolated as this selfisolated human that's meant to do it by yourself. human that's meant to do it by yourself. human that's meant to do it by yourself. And we're actually living in this kind And we're actually living in this kind And we're actually living in this kind of wider ecosystem of stressors. Um, as of wider ecosystem of stressors. Um, as of wider ecosystem of stressors. Um, as I mentioned, the nervous system and I mentioned, the nervous system and I mentioned, the nervous system and immune system are completely integrated. immune system are completely integrated. immune system are completely integrated. You know, if your eyes are seeing You know, if your eyes are seeing You know, if your eyes are seeing danger, then it's telling your brain danger, then it's telling your brain danger, then it's telling your brain there's a danger. Your nervous system is there's a danger. Your nervous system is there's a danger. Your nervous system is preparing for whatever that might need. preparing for whatever that might need. preparing for whatever that might need. And then your immune system is also And then your immune system is also And then your immune system is also being told, right, that you might get being told, right, that you might get being told, right, that you might get injured, you might have um an infection, injured, you might have um an infection, injured, you might have um an infection, something might happen. There might be something might happen. There might be something might happen. There might be tissue damage. You've got to be ready. tissue damage. You've got to be ready. tissue damage. You've got to be ready. So, it's primed for inflammation. If So, it's primed for inflammation. If So, it's primed for inflammation. If we're stressed every day because of our, we're stressed every day because of our, we're stressed every day because of our, you know, home situation, because of a you know, home situation, because of a you know, home situation, because of a work situation or family events or work situation or family events or work situation or family events or things out of our control, then your things out of our control, then your things out of our control, then your immune system doesn't know any immune system doesn't know any immune system doesn't know any different. It's just like, right, I've different. It's just like, right, I've different. It's just like, right, I've got prime for something dangerous to got prime for something dangerous to got prime for something dangerous to happen. That priming is this happen. That priming is this happen. That priming is this inflammation, this unwanted inflammation, this unwanted inflammation, this unwanted inflammation, which is then causing more inflammation, which is then causing more inflammation, which is then causing more wear and tear on our bodies. And that's wear and tear on our bodies. And that's wear and tear on our bodies. And that's ultimately is feeding into to chronic ultimately is feeding into to chronic ultimately is feeding into to chronic disease. Something we haven't mentioned disease. Something we haven't mentioned disease. Something we haven't mentioned is that these chronic diseases which now is that these chronic diseases which now is that these chronic diseases which now replace infectious diseases as the replace infectious diseases as the replace infectious diseases as the biggest causes of poor health all have biggest causes of poor health all have biggest causes of poor health all have unwanted inflammation as one of their unwanted inflammation as one of their unwanted inflammation as one of their core features. So if we can have a core features. So if we can have a core features. So if we can have a handle on that, it's going to hopefully handle on that, it's going to hopefully handle on that, it's going to hopefully interrupt the the tide of those interrupt the the tide of those interrupt the the tide of those developing across the life course. developing across the life course. developing across the life course. >> Yeah. Uh, and I guess just a point to >> Yeah. Uh, and I guess just a point to >> Yeah. Uh, and I guess just a point to highlight for people is that they will highlight for people is that they will highlight for people is that they will have heard on this podcast have heard on this podcast have heard on this podcast on many occasions on many occasions on many occasions me or my guest talking about chronic me or my guest talking about chronic me or my guest talking about chronic unresolved inflammation and and why it unresolved inflammation and and why it unresolved inflammation and and why it is one of the root causes of most of the is one of the root causes of most of the is one of the root causes of most of the chronic diseases that we struggle with chronic diseases that we struggle with chronic diseases that we struggle with these days, these days, these days, >> but they might not have drawn the link >> but they might not have drawn the link >> but they might not have drawn the link to the immune system. to the immune system. to the immune system. >> Where does that inflammation come from? >> Where does that inflammation come from? >> Where does that inflammation come from? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, it comes from the immune system, >> Well, it comes from the immune system, >> Well, it comes from the immune system, right? So actually if you're going root right? So actually if you're going root right? So actually if you're going root root root cause yeah go to chronic root root cause yeah go to chronic root root cause yeah go to chronic inflammation but then you actually have inflammation but then you actually have inflammation but then you actually have to go one step deeper and go yeah that's to go one step deeper and go yeah that's to go one step deeper and go yeah that's because the immune system for whatever because the immune system for whatever because the immune system for whatever reason feels reason feels reason feels >> that it needs to propagate an >> that it needs to propagate an >> that it needs to propagate an inflammatory response inflammatory response inflammatory response >> because of what it is sensing. >> because of what it is sensing. >> because of what it is sensing. >> Yeah. And the sensing part is the >> Yeah. And the sensing part is the >> Yeah. And the sensing part is the nervous system which is talking to the nervous system which is talking to the nervous system which is talking to the immune system. And I I just think when immune system. And I I just think when immune system. And I I just think when you start to piece that together, to me, you start to piece that together, to me, you start to piece that together, to me, I can't I can't think of it differently I can't I can't think of it differently I can't I can't think of it differently anymore. Like that's why I can't think anymore. Like that's why I can't think anymore. Like that's why I can't think of mental health different from physical of mental health different from physical of mental health different from physical health because if I imagine a scenario, health because if I imagine a scenario, health because if I imagine a scenario, oh my god, this is going to happen at oh my god, this is going to happen at oh my god, this is going to happen at work and this is terrible, then I'm work and this is terrible, then I'm work and this is terrible, then I'm basically telling my whole body there's basically telling my whole body there's basically telling my whole body there's a danger and telling my immune system to a danger and telling my immune system to a danger and telling my immune system to be on red alert, but it's all just my be on red alert, but it's all just my be on red alert, but it's all just my thoughts about what might happen before thoughts about what might happen before thoughts about what might happen before I go to work, for example. So, I think I go to work, for example. So, I think I go to work, for example. So, I think it's sadly we're in this kind of modern it's sadly we're in this kind of modern it's sadly we're in this kind of modern world where we're stuck in all of these world where we're stuck in all of these world where we're stuck in all of these situations where there's lots of situations where there's lots of situations where there's lots of imagined uh concerns and fears that make imagined uh concerns and fears that make imagined uh concerns and fears that make compromise our sense of safety. I think compromise our sense of safety. I think compromise our sense of safety. I think we always assume the word safety is like we always assume the word safety is like we always assume the word safety is like an inherent danger like I'm about to be an inherent danger like I'm about to be an inherent danger like I'm about to be hit by a car. But I think our sense of hit by a car. But I think our sense of hit by a car. But I think our sense of safety can be compromised by by our safety can be compromised by by our safety can be compromised by by our thoughts, by a stressful email, by all thoughts, by a stressful email, by all thoughts, by a stressful email, by all sorts of things. sorts of things. sorts of things. >> Yeah. but by what we consume. Of course, >> Yeah. but by what we consume. Of course, >> Yeah. but by what we consume. Of course, as we're recording this conversation, as we're recording this conversation, as we're recording this conversation, >> middle of March, >> middle of March, >> middle of March, >> um, >> um, >> um, >> you know, the the news has become quite >> you know, the the news has become quite >> you know, the the news has become quite alarming over the past week, okay? alarming over the past week, okay? alarming over the past week, okay? >> And flights been cancelled, like people >> And flights been cancelled, like people >> And flights been cancelled, like people wondering about the end of the world, wondering about the end of the world, wondering about the end of the world, all kinds of things. all kinds of things. all kinds of things. >> And >> And >> And we have to be aware that the content we have to be aware that the content we have to be aware that the content we're consuming is sending that signal we're consuming is sending that signal we're consuming is sending that signal to our immune systems. to our immune systems. to our immune systems. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Right. And I I had I was really good for >> Right. And I I had I was really good for >> Right. And I I had I was really good for a while. I sort of had deleted X and a while. I sort of had deleted X and a while. I sort of had deleted X and Instagram from my phone. So I would only Instagram from my phone. So I would only Instagram from my phone. So I would only look at them on my laptop. look at them on my laptop. look at them on my laptop. >> And then I think cuz I was traveling in >> And then I think cuz I was traveling in >> And then I think cuz I was traveling in February, I put X back on for some February, I put X back on for some February, I put X back on for some reason. reason. reason. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And after this all sort started to go >> And after this all sort started to go >> And after this all sort started to go down, right, in the news. down, right, in the news. down, right, in the news. >> I I was finding myself on X for >> I I was finding myself on X for >> I I was finding myself on X for >> God knows how long just trying to stay >> God knows how long just trying to stay >> God knows how long just trying to stay up to date with stuff. Then I thought, up to date with stuff. Then I thought, up to date with stuff. Then I thought, okay, wrong. You know, you do not need X okay, wrong. You know, you do not need X okay, wrong. You know, you do not need X on your phone. Okay, it, you know, on your phone. Okay, it, you know, on your phone. Okay, it, you know, again, not trying to tell anyone how to again, not trying to tell anyone how to again, not trying to tell anyone how to live their life. For me, I was realizing live their life. For me, I was realizing live their life. For me, I was realizing that that that >> I don't need 60 to 90 minutes of >> I don't need 60 to 90 minutes of >> I don't need 60 to 90 minutes of negative inputs. Yes. negative inputs. Yes. negative inputs. Yes. >> into my life about stuff that is largely >> into my life about stuff that is largely >> into my life about stuff that is largely out of my control. out of my control. out of my control. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I just delete the app. >> I just delete the app. >> I just delete the app. >> And even though that hasn't changed >> And even though that hasn't changed >> And even though that hasn't changed anything that is going on in the world, anything that is going on in the world, anything that is going on in the world, >> my experience of day-to-day life >> my experience of day-to-day life >> my experience of day-to-day life >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> is completely different. >> is completely different. >> is completely different. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think it goes back to >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think it goes back to >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think it goes back to our earlier discussion on time because our earlier discussion on time because our earlier discussion on time because if I get to the end of the day and I if I get to the end of the day and I if I get to the end of the day and I realize how much time I've spent realize how much time I've spent realize how much time I've spent mindlessly scrolling when I could be mindlessly scrolling when I could be mindlessly scrolling when I could be just living more deeply in the moment, just living more deeply in the moment, just living more deeply in the moment, more present with myself, with the world more present with myself, with the world more present with myself, with the world around me, then that means by the end of around me, then that means by the end of around me, then that means by the end of the day I've had very different inputs the day I've had very different inputs the day I've had very different inputs into my body uh in terms of our kind of into my body uh in terms of our kind of into my body uh in terms of our kind of information diet. You know, we talk a information diet. You know, we talk a information diet. You know, we talk a lot about what we eat, but you know, lot about what we eat, but you know, lot about what we eat, but you know, what we're exposing ourselves to and in what we're exposing ourselves to and in what we're exposing ourselves to and in the content that we're exposed to is the content that we're exposed to is the content that we're exposed to is also having a physical effect on our also having a physical effect on our also having a physical effect on our health. health. health. >> For many years, Jenna, I would >> For many years, Jenna, I would >> For many years, Jenna, I would specialize in seeing specialize in seeing specialize in seeing people with autoimmune disease. people with autoimmune disease. people with autoimmune disease. >> This is out with where I was in general >> This is out with where I was in general >> This is out with where I was in general practice at the time. I'd also see practice at the time. I'd also see practice at the time. I'd also see people for an hour, an hour and a half people for an hour, an hour and a half people for an hour, an hour and a half who had complex issues that they who had complex issues that they who had complex issues that they couldn't get resolution for. And I I couldn't get resolution for. And I I couldn't get resolution for. And I I used to really enjoy that. Um, used to really enjoy that. Um, used to really enjoy that. Um, >> and one thing I found, >> and one thing I found, >> and one thing I found, I mean, I don't know the exact I mean, I don't know the exact I mean, I don't know the exact statistics, so it's it was almost 100% statistics, so it's it was almost 100% statistics, so it's it was almost 100% of the time was when I did a timeline on of the time was when I did a timeline on of the time was when I did a timeline on people who people who people who >> suffered from any autoimmune disease, >> suffered from any autoimmune disease, >> suffered from any autoimmune disease, whether that be lupus, Crohn's, whether that be lupus, Crohn's, whether that be lupus, Crohn's, ulcerative colitis, ulcerative colitis, ulcerative colitis, >> rheumatoid arthritis, whatever it might >> rheumatoid arthritis, whatever it might >> rheumatoid arthritis, whatever it might be. be. be. I can tell you it was it was amazing how I can tell you it was it was amazing how I can tell you it was it was amazing how many times in the six months prior to many times in the six months prior to many times in the six months prior to them getting a diagnosis them getting a diagnosis them getting a diagnosis >> there was a significant stressor in >> there was a significant stressor in >> there was a significant stressor in their life. their life. their life. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Whether it be >> Whether it be >> Whether it be >> a divorce, >> a divorce, >> a divorce, >> bereiement, >> bereiement, >> bereiement, job loss. job loss. job loss. >> I'm not saying it was the only cause, >> I'm not saying it was the only cause, >> I'm not saying it was the only cause, >> but it seemed to be the trigger. >> but it seemed to be the trigger. >> but it seemed to be the trigger. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That tipped them over the edge. You've >> That tipped them over the edge. You've >> That tipped them over the edge. You've been studying iminology for many years. been studying iminology for many years. been studying iminology for many years. Does that make sense to you through the Does that make sense to you through the Does that make sense to you through the lens of the science of the immune lens of the science of the immune lens of the science of the immune system? system? system? >> Yes, completely. And and it sounds like >> Yes, completely. And and it sounds like >> Yes, completely. And and it sounds like what you've experienced with your what you've experienced with your what you've experienced with your patients is starting to be reported now patients is starting to be reported now patients is starting to be reported now in the literature. And it's an anecdote in the literature. And it's an anecdote in the literature. And it's an anecdote that we hear time and time again for that we hear time and time again for that we hear time and time again for people who have autoimmune conditions. people who have autoimmune conditions. people who have autoimmune conditions. They'll also often say that stress will They'll also often say that stress will They'll also often say that stress will flare up their um um symptoms as well as flare up their um um symptoms as well as flare up their um um symptoms as well as perhaps being some an anticident to the perhaps being some an anticident to the perhaps being some an anticident to the diagnosis. Um and again that's because diagnosis. Um and again that's because diagnosis. Um and again that's because we have this really integrated response we have this really integrated response we have this really integrated response between the stress response and the between the stress response and the between the stress response and the immune system. And also if you think immune system. And also if you think immune system. And also if you think about it you know your when your stress about it you know your when your stress about it you know your when your stress response is activated um everything's response is activated um everything's response is activated um everything's going to be amplified in the immune going to be amplified in the immune going to be amplified in the immune system. So if you already have some system. So if you already have some system. So if you already have some immune responses that are happening. So immune responses that are happening. So immune responses that are happening. So for example in rheumatoid arthritis for example in rheumatoid arthritis for example in rheumatoid arthritis there's an attack on the cartilage in there's an attack on the cartilage in there's an attack on the cartilage in the knee then you're just amplifying the the knee then you're just amplifying the the knee then you're just amplifying the conditions for this. um immune cells are conditions for this. um immune cells are conditions for this. um immune cells are metabolically active. So the stress is metabolically active. So the stress is metabolically active. So the stress is affecting our metabolism. It's affecting affecting our metabolism. It's affecting affecting our metabolism. It's affecting things like blood sugar levels and that things like blood sugar levels and that things like blood sugar levels and that doesn't cause inflammation, but it will doesn't cause inflammation, but it will doesn't cause inflammation, but it will amplify what's already there because of amplify what's already there because of amplify what's already there because of the metabolic profile of those immune the metabolic profile of those immune the metabolic profile of those immune cells. And also things like cortisol. cells. And also things like cortisol. cells. And also things like cortisol. When we have a heightened cortisol, When we have a heightened cortisol, When we have a heightened cortisol, which is one of the main stress um which is one of the main stress um which is one of the main stress um chemicals, it downregulates the cortisol chemicals, it downregulates the cortisol chemicals, it downregulates the cortisol receptor. So we we can't resolve the receptor. So we we can't resolve the receptor. So we we can't resolve the stress response as well. So we kind of stress response as well. So we kind of stress response as well. So we kind of get stuck in a loop and then you have get stuck in a loop and then you have get stuck in a loop and then you have layers on top of that things like layers on top of that things like layers on top of that things like vitamin D deficiency which is really vitamin D deficiency which is really vitamin D deficiency which is really common in winter which will again lessen common in winter which will again lessen common in winter which will again lessen your ability to close the stress loop your ability to close the stress loop your ability to close the stress loop and suddenly you get into this messy and suddenly you get into this messy and suddenly you get into this messy network of all these different things network of all these different things network of all these different things happening um under the surface uh and happening um under the surface uh and happening um under the surface uh and and all of the symptoms are are flaring and all of the symptoms are are flaring and all of the symptoms are are flaring for that person. I think if you can for that person. I think if you can for that person. I think if you can manage as much of the unwanted manage as much of the unwanted manage as much of the unwanted inflammation as possible, inflammation as possible, inflammation as possible, um stress, you know, will come and go, um stress, you know, will come and go, um stress, you know, will come and go, then that's the best case scenario. And then that's the best case scenario. And then that's the best case scenario. And actually, there's some really actually, there's some really actually, there's some really interesting literature that the people interesting literature that the people interesting literature that the people who have chronic diseases but fear the who have chronic diseases but fear the who have chronic diseases but fear the best in terms of their sense of their best in terms of their sense of their best in terms of their sense of their own well-being. So, how they feel in own well-being. So, how they feel in own well-being. So, how they feel in themselves are the ones who've kind of themselves are the ones who've kind of themselves are the ones who've kind of made peace with this lifelong condition, made peace with this lifelong condition, made peace with this lifelong condition, this awful diagnosis that they've had. this awful diagnosis that they've had. this awful diagnosis that they've had. And I think that they're no longer kind And I think that they're no longer kind And I think that they're no longer kind of resisting cuz for so long it can be of resisting cuz for so long it can be of resisting cuz for so long it can be like, but why me and what's gone wrong like, but why me and what's gone wrong like, but why me and what's gone wrong and what have I done? and what have I done? and what have I done? >> But when you have a sense of acceptance >> But when you have a sense of acceptance >> But when you have a sense of acceptance of how things are instead of wishing of how things are instead of wishing of how things are instead of wishing they were different, that seems to allow they were different, that seems to allow they were different, that seems to allow people to feel a better sense of of people to feel a better sense of of people to feel a better sense of of well-being. This is where well-being. This is where well-being. This is where science and spirituality for one of a science and spirituality for one of a science and spirituality for one of a better term start to start to really better term start to start to really better term start to start to really combine and become one, right? Because combine and become one, right? Because combine and become one, right? Because >> these these concepts of acceptance are >> these these concepts of acceptance are >> these these concepts of acceptance are things that spiritual teachers and things that spiritual teachers and things that spiritual teachers and philosophy would have talked about for philosophy would have talked about for philosophy would have talked about for years. years. years. >> So, it's really fascinating to hear how >> So, it's really fascinating to hear how >> So, it's really fascinating to hear how that actually that actually that actually >> can actually transform or certainly have >> can actually transform or certainly have >> can actually transform or certainly have an impact on people's physical symptoms an impact on people's physical symptoms an impact on people's physical symptoms because these things are not separate. because these things are not separate. because these things are not separate. They're they're one and the same. And They're they're one and the same. And They're they're one and the same. And now I spend a lot of time thinking about now I spend a lot of time thinking about now I spend a lot of time thinking about stress and what stress actually is. And stress and what stress actually is. And stress and what stress actually is. And you can look at it through multiple you can look at it through multiple you can look at it through multiple lenses. lenses. lenses. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> You know, my second book back in 2018 >> You know, my second book back in 2018 >> You know, my second book back in 2018 was all about stress. was all about stress. was all about stress. >> And whilst I still stand by everything >> And whilst I still stand by everything >> And whilst I still stand by everything that was in that, I would probably write that was in that, I would probably write that was in that, I would probably write it differently today. it differently today. it differently today. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, because it was what eight >> You know, because it was what eight >> You know, because it was what eight years ago and I I think about stress, years ago and I I think about stress, years ago and I I think about stress, >> my my thinking has evolved somewhat >> my my thinking has evolved somewhat >> my my thinking has evolved somewhat since then. And I think one way of since then. And I think one way of since then. And I think one way of looking at stress looking at stress looking at stress is thinking about it as resistance. is thinking about it as resistance. is thinking about it as resistance. >> Stress >> Stress >> Stress in many ways only exists when we resist. in many ways only exists when we resist. in many ways only exists when we resist. That resistance is the stress. That resistance is the stress. That resistance is the stress. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Whereas acceptance is the opposite of >> Whereas acceptance is the opposite of >> Whereas acceptance is the opposite of resistance. resistance. resistance. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. If you can accept everything in >> Right. If you can accept everything in >> Right. If you can accept everything in your life, I know it's easier said than your life, I know it's easier said than your life, I know it's easier said than done. done. done. >> Yeah. that working on how you go about >> Yeah. that working on how you go about >> Yeah. that working on how you go about cultivating the skill of acceptance cultivating the skill of acceptance cultivating the skill of acceptance >> literally will transform your stress >> literally will transform your stress >> literally will transform your stress response because that the stress response because that the stress response because that the stress >> the the stress comes from the fact that >> the the stress comes from the fact that >> the the stress comes from the fact that you're resisting what is and when you you're resisting what is and when you you're resisting what is and when you stop resisting what is stop resisting what is stop resisting what is >> the stress just isn't there at least not >> the stress just isn't there at least not >> the stress just isn't there at least not to the same degree to the same degree to the same degree >> I think for me it was there was a moment >> I think for me it was there was a moment >> I think for me it was there was a moment of being like doesn't mean I have to of being like doesn't mean I have to of being like doesn't mean I have to like it like I can resist this and be like it like I can resist this and be like it like I can resist this and be like why is this happening to me and d like why is this happening to me and d like why is this happening to me and d and then I can be like well it couldn't and then I can be like well it couldn't and then I can be like well it couldn't be any other way cuz it's not. This is be any other way cuz it's not. This is be any other way cuz it's not. This is literally how reality is and I can't literally how reality is and I can't literally how reality is and I can't change it. And it's like you put the hot change it. And it's like you put the hot change it. And it's like you put the hot coal down and you're no longer burning coal down and you're no longer burning coal down and you're no longer burning your hand. But it doesn't mean I have to your hand. But it doesn't mean I have to your hand. But it doesn't mean I have to be like, "Yay, I'm really happy for be like, "Yay, I'm really happy for be like, "Yay, I'm really happy for this." And I think when I kind of put this." And I think when I kind of put this." And I think when I kind of put those two things together, uh, and I those two things together, uh, and I those two things together, uh, and I notice it now with the kids, like when notice it now with the kids, like when notice it now with the kids, like when my kids get frustrated because of my kids get frustrated because of my kids get frustrated because of something and it's usually because something and it's usually because something and it's usually because they're resisting whatever it is, and they're resisting whatever it is, and they're resisting whatever it is, and then they kind of eventually get to the then they kind of eventually get to the then they kind of eventually get to the point of acceptance point of acceptance point of acceptance >> and then it's like, "Ah, >> and then it's like, "Ah, >> and then it's like, "Ah, >> yeah." And and sometimes the solution to >> yeah." And and sometimes the solution to >> yeah." And and sometimes the solution to stress or or chronic stress that may be stress or or chronic stress that may be stress or or chronic stress that may be impacting our health, I think it's not impacting our health, I think it's not impacting our health, I think it's not sometimes it's not as hard as we we sometimes it's not as hard as we we sometimes it's not as hard as we we think. I think sometimes it can be think. I think sometimes it can be think. I think sometimes it can be challenging for sure. challenging for sure. challenging for sure. >> I always remember >> I always remember >> I always remember a case of a lady, a middle-aged lady a case of a lady, a middle-aged lady a case of a lady, a middle-aged lady with Crohn's disease. I I'm pretty sure with Crohn's disease. I I'm pretty sure with Crohn's disease. I I'm pretty sure I use this as a case study in my first I use this as a case study in my first I use this as a case study in my first book, The Four Pivot Plan, years ago. book, The Four Pivot Plan, years ago. book, The Four Pivot Plan, years ago. And I always remember how she had really And I always remember how she had really And I always remember how she had really bad Crohn's. She didn't like the bad Crohn's. She didn't like the bad Crohn's. She didn't like the imunosuppressants. They gave her bad imunosuppressants. They gave her bad imunosuppressants. They gave her bad side effects. And I was seeing her for a side effects. And I was seeing her for a side effects. And I was seeing her for a more holistic approach, let's say. more holistic approach, let's say. more holistic approach, let's say. >> And one of the times she came to see me, >> And one of the times she came to see me, >> And one of the times she came to see me, the recommendation from me was the recommendation from me was the recommendation from me was >> to have 15 minutes to herself every day. >> to have 15 minutes to herself every day. >> to have 15 minutes to herself every day. >> And she went away for four to six weeks. >> And she went away for four to six weeks. >> And she went away for four to six weeks. And in that time, she would have 15 And in that time, she would have 15 And in that time, she would have 15 minutes to herself every day, which from minutes to herself every day, which from minutes to herself every day, which from recollection was after she dropped her recollection was after she dropped her recollection was after she dropped her kids off at school. Before she got into kids off at school. Before she got into kids off at school. Before she got into work, work, work, >> she'd go for a 15-minute walk in the >> she'd go for a 15-minute walk in the >> she'd go for a 15-minute walk in the park. That was it. The other thing she park. That was it. The other thing she park. That was it. The other thing she brought into her life brought into her life brought into her life >> was a passion that she'd always wanted >> was a passion that she'd always wanted >> was a passion that she'd always wanted to do, which was salsa dancing. to do, which was salsa dancing. to do, which was salsa dancing. >> And she had never done it. She never >> And she had never done it. She never >> And she had never done it. She never thought she had time. She was always thought she had time. She was always thought she had time. She was always doing things for her husband and her doing things for her husband and her doing things for her husband and her children. Never for her. children. Never for her. children. Never for her. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And 50 minutes of me time every day. And >> And 50 minutes of me time every day. And >> And 50 minutes of me time every day. And going to a salsa dancing class once a going to a salsa dancing class once a going to a salsa dancing class once a week week week >> brought her Crohn's disease symptoms >> brought her Crohn's disease symptoms >> brought her Crohn's disease symptoms down by over 50%. And it was down by over 50%. And it was down by over 50%. And it was sustainable. sustainable. sustainable. >> That's incredible. I always remember >> That's incredible. I always remember >> That's incredible. I always remember that cuz I'm like, "Wow, that cuz I'm like, "Wow, that cuz I'm like, "Wow, >> no one's teaching us that in medical >> no one's teaching us that in medical >> no one's teaching us that in medical school." But it totally makes sense school." But it totally makes sense school." But it totally makes sense through the lens of the immune system through the lens of the immune system through the lens of the immune system and stress. and stress. and stress. >> If her having ties to herself is >> If her having ties to herself is >> If her having ties to herself is lowering her stress, if her doing lowering her stress, if her doing lowering her stress, if her doing something that she's passionate about, something that she's passionate about, something that she's passionate about, we also know that has a positive impact we also know that has a positive impact we also know that has a positive impact on your stress response and your immune on your stress response and your immune on your stress response and your immune system, system, system, >> it stands to reason that her symptoms >> it stands to reason that her symptoms >> it stands to reason that her symptoms may reduce somewhat. Didn't go away. She may reduce somewhat. Didn't go away. She may reduce somewhat. Didn't go away. She still had the condition, but it was way still had the condition, but it was way still had the condition, but it was way more manageable. more manageable. more manageable. >> Yeah. And I think to be able to do those >> Yeah. And I think to be able to do those >> Yeah. And I think to be able to do those things, go go go and enjoy a salsa dance things, go go go and enjoy a salsa dance things, go go go and enjoy a salsa dance class or something you enjoy, but you class or something you enjoy, but you class or something you enjoy, but you just put it off for whatever reason, you just put it off for whatever reason, you just put it off for whatever reason, you need to give yourself like a sense of need to give yourself like a sense of need to give yourself like a sense of safety and love and comp. I'm allowed to safety and love and comp. I'm allowed to safety and love and comp. I'm allowed to do that. I can find I can carve that out do that. I can find I can carve that out do that. I can find I can carve that out in my busy week where sometimes we jump in my busy week where sometimes we jump in my busy week where sometimes we jump from task to task. that 15 minute walk from task to task. that 15 minute walk from task to task. that 15 minute walk in the park like you're you're giving in the park like you're you're giving in the park like you're you're giving yourself something that you didn't have yourself something that you didn't have yourself something that you didn't have before that you deserve which is just before that you deserve which is just before that you deserve which is just peacefulness a nice bit of fresh air um peacefulness a nice bit of fresh air um peacefulness a nice bit of fresh air um and I think that's a really yeah and I think that's a really yeah and I think that's a really yeah incredible but so simple incredible but so simple incredible but so simple >> and um yeah I I hope we can start to >> and um yeah I I hope we can start to >> and um yeah I I hope we can start to sprinkle this in alongside all of the sprinkle this in alongside all of the sprinkle this in alongside all of the amazing medical treatments and things amazing medical treatments and things amazing medical treatments and things that we have available which has given that we have available which has given that we have available which has given us this really long lifespan that we now us this really long lifespan that we now us this really long lifespan that we now potentially have but I think to really potentially have but I think to really potentially have but I think to really have a depth of life and not just be have a depth of life and not just be have a depth of life and not just be chasing some horizon optimizing for the chasing some horizon optimizing for the chasing some horizon optimizing for the sake of it. And actually, one of the sake of it. And actually, one of the sake of it. And actually, one of the things that blew my mind was um you things that blew my mind was um you things that blew my mind was um you know, we're always looking at all these know, we're always looking at all these know, we're always looking at all these longevity hacks. You know, there's longevity hacks. You know, there's longevity hacks. You know, there's protocols everywhere, those morning protocols everywhere, those morning protocols everywhere, those morning routines. Like you can really indulge in routines. Like you can really indulge in routines. Like you can really indulge in that content online if you want to, the that content online if you want to, the that content online if you want to, the latest hacks, the equipment, the latest hacks, the equipment, the latest hacks, the equipment, the technology. Um, but one of the best ways technology. Um, but one of the best ways technology. Um, but one of the best ways of sensing how long you might live is of sensing how long you might live is of sensing how long you might live is actually how much you can sense your own actually how much you can sense your own actually how much you can sense your own body. So by that I mean like being able body. So by that I mean like being able body. So by that I mean like being able to be aware of your heartbeat, being to be aware of your heartbeat, being to be aware of your heartbeat, being able to respond to signals. So simple able to respond to signals. So simple able to respond to signals. So simple examples include things like your examples include things like your examples include things like your intraception. So when you're hungry, intraception. So when you're hungry, intraception. So when you're hungry, when you need to go to the bathroom, when you need to go to the bathroom, when you need to go to the bathroom, like those, we can override them easily. like those, we can override them easily. like those, we can override them easily. But the more you're able to sense what But the more you're able to sense what But the more you're able to sense what your body's telling you, the better able your body's telling you, the better able your body's telling you, the better able you are to sort of live well, feel well, you are to sort of live well, feel well, you are to sort of live well, feel well, stay well. And I find that quite stay well. And I find that quite stay well. And I find that quite fascinating. And I think we can only do fascinating. And I think we can only do fascinating. And I think we can only do that if we're still and calm and with that if we're still and calm and with that if we're still and calm and with ourselves. Because I certainly can ourselves. Because I certainly can ourselves. Because I certainly can override all of my basic needs if I'm override all of my basic needs if I'm override all of my basic needs if I'm having a really busy day and running having a really busy day and running having a really busy day and running around as a working mom. And I think around as a working mom. And I think around as a working mom. And I think that it was, you know, when you sit in that it was, you know, when you sit in that it was, you know, when you sit in meditation, you're suddenly like, "Oh, meditation, you're suddenly like, "Oh, meditation, you're suddenly like, "Oh, my hips niggling and like I'm I'm my hips niggling and like I'm I'm my hips niggling and like I'm I'm fidgety and I want to dopamine wants me fidgety and I want to dopamine wants me fidgety and I want to dopamine wants me to pick up my phone and like you to pick up my phone and like you to pick up my phone and like you suddenly become aware. My heart's suddenly become aware. My heart's suddenly become aware. My heart's racing. My breathing is all in my upper racing. My breathing is all in my upper racing. My breathing is all in my upper chest." Like, and then you're aware. chest." Like, and then you're aware. chest." Like, and then you're aware. You're like, "Oh, right. Now I can sort You're like, "Oh, right. Now I can sort You're like, "Oh, right. Now I can sort of start to fix those things." of start to fix those things." of start to fix those things." >> Yeah. I've noticed from your Instagram >> Yeah. I've noticed from your Instagram >> Yeah. I've noticed from your Instagram page that you've taken up jiu-jitsu. page that you've taken up jiu-jitsu. page that you've taken up jiu-jitsu. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Over the past few years. And I think in >> Over the past few years. And I think in >> Over the past few years. And I think in one of your posts, one of your posts, one of your posts, >> I think you said something to the effect >> I think you said something to the effect >> I think you said something to the effect of this idea that jiu-jitsu has healed of this idea that jiu-jitsu has healed of this idea that jiu-jitsu has healed your nervous system. your nervous system. your nervous system. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> We're talking about stress. We're >> We're talking about stress. We're >> We're talking about stress. We're talking about the impact it has on our talking about the impact it has on our talking about the impact it has on our nervous systems and therefore our nervous systems and therefore our nervous systems and therefore our overall health. overall health. overall health. Meditation is something you brought into Meditation is something you brought into Meditation is something you brought into your life and so is jiu-jitsu. Can you your life and so is jiu-jitsu. Can you your life and so is jiu-jitsu. Can you speak a little bit to what those two speak a little bit to what those two speak a little bit to what those two things have done for you? Yeah, it's things have done for you? Yeah, it's things have done for you? Yeah, it's they're they're both really significant. they're they're both really significant. they're they're both really significant. I I wanted to do a martial art for quite I I wanted to do a martial art for quite I I wanted to do a martial art for quite some time. I was I've always been very some time. I was I've always been very some time. I was I've always been very active and I was just kind of curious uh active and I was just kind of curious uh active and I was just kind of curious uh about it. I don't know anyone who did about it. I don't know anyone who did about it. I don't know anyone who did it. I had a car accident a few years ago it. I had a car accident a few years ago it. I had a car accident a few years ago and I just had to recover from those and I just had to recover from those and I just had to recover from those injuries before I could take up a sport injuries before I could take up a sport injuries before I could take up a sport which is historically quite littered which is historically quite littered which is historically quite littered with injuries cuz you're effectively with injuries cuz you're effectively with injuries cuz you're effectively wrestling other people. But I found a wrestling other people. But I found a wrestling other people. But I found a local studio uh and started going down local studio uh and started going down local studio uh and started going down there. And this was kind of in the midst there. And this was kind of in the midst there. And this was kind of in the midst of like, you know, coming out of the of like, you know, coming out of the of like, you know, coming out of the marriage and all of my personal stuff. marriage and all of my personal stuff. marriage and all of my personal stuff. And um I kind of realized that I didn't And um I kind of realized that I didn't And um I kind of realized that I didn't I talking about the the nervous system I talking about the the nervous system I talking about the the nervous system as like fight or flight is what most as like fight or flight is what most as like fight or flight is what most people would be familiar with. Like people would be familiar with. Like people would be familiar with. Like you're faced with danger, you're going you're faced with danger, you're going you're faced with danger, you're going to fight or you're going to run away. to fight or you're going to run away. to fight or you're going to run away. and your nervous system is helping you and your nervous system is helping you and your nervous system is helping you be motivated to do one of those. But be motivated to do one of those. But be motivated to do one of those. But there's there's other parts to that there's there's other parts to that there's there's other parts to that conversation that are less spoken about conversation that are less spoken about conversation that are less spoken about and I think they more apply to women and I think they more apply to women and I think they more apply to women generally speaking and that's freeze and generally speaking and that's freeze and generally speaking and that's freeze and fawn. So if you can't fight because fawn. So if you can't fight because fawn. So if you can't fight because maybe you're smaller and you wouldn't maybe you're smaller and you wouldn't maybe you're smaller and you wouldn't win and you can't flight, you can't run win and you can't flight, you can't run win and you can't flight, you can't run away for whatever reason, you might away for whatever reason, you might away for whatever reason, you might freeze and you might try and appease the freeze and you might try and appease the freeze and you might try and appease the thing that is causing you danger and it thing that is causing you danger and it thing that is causing you danger and it still a stress response. You're just still a stress response. You're just still a stress response. You're just you're still bracing, you know, you're you're still bracing, you know, you're you're still bracing, you know, you're all of that stress chemistry is still all of that stress chemistry is still all of that stress chemistry is still happening, but it's it's physically in happening, but it's it's physically in happening, but it's it's physically in your body. Um, I mentioned earlier, you your body. Um, I mentioned earlier, you your body. Um, I mentioned earlier, you know, dealing with back pain because I know, dealing with back pain because I know, dealing with back pain because I spent a lot of time in this freeze fawn spent a lot of time in this freeze fawn spent a lot of time in this freeze fawn response like everything bracing and I response like everything bracing and I response like everything bracing and I didn't even realize this was just how I didn't even realize this was just how I didn't even realize this was just how I went about my day. My whole diaphragm went about my day. My whole diaphragm went about my day. My whole diaphragm not working properly, like breathing in not working properly, like breathing in not working properly, like breathing in my upper chest, like my heart rate my upper chest, like my heart rate my upper chest, like my heart rate elevated. elevated. elevated. >> So, I went to jiu-jitsu and I was like, >> So, I went to jiu-jitsu and I was like, >> So, I went to jiu-jitsu and I was like, this is great. You're learning this is great. You're learning this is great. You're learning technique. It's all very like come technique. It's all very like come technique. It's all very like come brilliant training partners. you're brilliant training partners. you're brilliant training partners. you're learning how to do the technique in a learning how to do the technique in a learning how to do the technique in a very safe way. Your partner is very very safe way. Your partner is very very safe way. Your partner is very passive so that you can understand the passive so that you can understand the passive so that you can understand the movements and then you have rounds of movements and then you have rounds of movements and then you have rounds of sparring at the end. And I just sparring at the end. And I just sparring at the end. And I just completely froze. like I like my body completely froze. like I like my body completely froze. like I like my body had forgotten had forgotten had forgotten that I could have this fight response that I could have this fight response that I could have this fight response cuz I think there's a certain amount of cuz I think there's a certain amount of cuz I think there's a certain amount of adrenaline when you're very new to a adrenaline when you're very new to a adrenaline when you're very new to a martial art that you need to go and spar martial art that you need to go and spar martial art that you need to go and spar with someone cuz you're like literally with someone cuz you're like literally with someone cuz you're like literally six minutes trying to fight um to choke, six minutes trying to fight um to choke, six minutes trying to fight um to choke, you know, submit the person. Um and it you know, submit the person. Um and it you know, submit the person. Um and it was kind of after that I realized that was kind of after that I realized that was kind of after that I realized that this is what I'd been experiencing. I'd this is what I'd been experiencing. I'd this is what I'd been experiencing. I'd been in this freeze fawn but stuck and been in this freeze fawn but stuck and been in this freeze fawn but stuck and my nervous system didn't know how to my nervous system didn't know how to my nervous system didn't know how to fight and it was like just in that safe fight and it was like just in that safe fight and it was like just in that safe environment with this amazing community environment with this amazing community environment with this amazing community of people that I reconnected with a bit of people that I reconnected with a bit of people that I reconnected with a bit of my body that I a function I had that of my body that I a function I had that of my body that I a function I had that I didn't know how to use. And I think I didn't know how to use. And I think I didn't know how to use. And I think this is really important because when we this is really important because when we this is really important because when we speak about the nervous system, it's speak about the nervous system, it's speak about the nervous system, it's always like you have to regulate, you always like you have to regulate, you always like you have to regulate, you have to be calm, do the calm breathing have to be calm, do the calm breathing have to be calm, do the calm breathing and the calm self-care routine. And it's and the calm self-care routine. And it's and the calm self-care routine. And it's like no, no, I have to be able to fight like no, no, I have to be able to fight like no, no, I have to be able to fight when I want to fight. come back to when I want to fight. come back to when I want to fight. come back to baseline, be calm when I need to be baseline, be calm when I need to be baseline, be calm when I need to be calm. I need to be able to like respond calm. I need to be able to like respond calm. I need to be able to like respond to what life throws at me because I to what life throws at me because I to what life throws at me because I don't know what's coming. I need to be don't know what's coming. I need to be don't know what's coming. I need to be able to run away if I need to fight if I able to run away if I need to fight if I able to run away if I need to fight if I need to freeze or fawn if I need to. I need to freeze or fawn if I need to. I need to freeze or fawn if I need to. I need to do all of these things and have need to do all of these things and have need to do all of these things and have access to them. And I realized that I access to them. And I realized that I access to them. And I realized that I didn't. So, it was kind of like a didn't. So, it was kind of like a didn't. So, it was kind of like a relearning of how to to use my fight relearning of how to to use my fight relearning of how to to use my fight response because we have these for a response because we have these for a response because we have these for a reason. And I think it's important that reason. And I think it's important that reason. And I think it's important that we we get activated for those six we we get activated for those six we we get activated for those six minutes of intensity and come back to minutes of intensity and come back to minutes of intensity and come back to baseline. And I think that a lot of the baseline. And I think that a lot of the baseline. And I think that a lot of the messaging around telling people to be messaging around telling people to be messaging around telling people to be calm all the time, it's like you just calm all the time, it's like you just calm all the time, it's like you just need to maybe not be calm because if need to maybe not be calm because if need to maybe not be calm because if someone's stressed, telling them to be someone's stressed, telling them to be someone's stressed, telling them to be calm is quite hard. calm is quite hard. calm is quite hard. >> It's so interesting, Jenna, the way >> It's so interesting, Jenna, the way >> It's so interesting, Jenna, the way you've articulated the benefits you got you've articulated the benefits you got you've articulated the benefits you got from jiu-jitsu is it wasn't that, you from jiu-jitsu is it wasn't that, you from jiu-jitsu is it wasn't that, you know, it could easily be and I'm sure know, it could easily be and I'm sure know, it could easily be and I'm sure this is part of it. You know, this is this is part of it. You know, this is this is part of it. You know, this is something I do for me. I've always something I do for me. I've always something I do for me. I've always wanted to do it. wanted to do it. wanted to do it. >> And that is true. And also >> And that is true. And also >> And that is true. And also >> this idea that your your nervous system >> this idea that your your nervous system >> this idea that your your nervous system was almost a bit stuck. was almost a bit stuck. was almost a bit stuck. >> Yeah. I mean, I thought I was going to >> Yeah. I mean, I thought I was going to >> Yeah. I mean, I thought I was going to be sick. I was like, and I'm in the be sick. I was like, and I'm in the be sick. I was like, and I'm in the middle of like, you know, having a a middle of like, you know, having a a middle of like, you know, having a a round of sparring, I could feel myself round of sparring, I could feel myself round of sparring, I could feel myself not wanting to practice the technique. I not wanting to practice the technique. I not wanting to practice the technique. I could feel myself wanting to freeze and could feel myself wanting to freeze and could feel myself wanting to freeze and just let them do whatever they wanted to just let them do whatever they wanted to just let them do whatever they wanted to me. And and it was um it was intense and me. And and it was um it was intense and me. And and it was um it was intense and emotional and it was I didn't have to go emotional and it was I didn't have to go emotional and it was I didn't have to go back. like I I could have stopped at any back. like I I could have stopped at any back. like I I could have stopped at any time, but almost like exposure therapy, time, but almost like exposure therapy, time, but almost like exposure therapy, like I needed that. I needed to expose like I needed that. I needed to expose like I needed that. I needed to expose myself to things that I didn't know how myself to things that I didn't know how myself to things that I didn't know how to do or was avoiding. And I think so to do or was avoiding. And I think so to do or was avoiding. And I think so much of the time we avoid things much of the time we avoid things much of the time we avoid things >> because we want to keep safe and it >> because we want to keep safe and it >> because we want to keep safe and it feels safe to avoid, but we're almost feels safe to avoid, but we're almost feels safe to avoid, but we're almost kind of giving ourselves a front row kind of giving ourselves a front row kind of giving ourselves a front row seat to future pain that way. seat to future pain that way. seat to future pain that way. >> How long have you been doing it for now? >> How long have you been doing it for now? >> How long have you been doing it for now? >> It's been about 2 years now. >> It's been about 2 years now. >> It's been about 2 years now. >> About 2 years. And um from that I've >> About 2 years. And um from that I've >> About 2 years. And um from that I've also got a community. Uh it I don't know also got a community. Uh it I don't know also got a community. Uh it I don't know if it's normal in the martial arts if it's normal in the martial arts if it's normal in the martial arts community but the this the gym where I community but the this the gym where I community but the this the gym where I go like everyone's supportive and go like everyone's supportive and go like everyone's supportive and friendly and it's so welcoming and like friendly and it's so welcoming and like friendly and it's so welcoming and like so I get more and more out of it as I so I get more and more out of it as I so I get more and more out of it as I keep doing it. And also I'm not very keep doing it. And also I'm not very keep doing it. And also I'm not very good. Like it's really really like a good. Like it's really really like a good. Like it's really really like a tough learning situation. like I can go tough learning situation. like I can go tough learning situation. like I can go to the gym and I know what I'm capable to the gym and I know what I'm capable to the gym and I know what I'm capable of and I can go for a run and I've done of and I can go for a run and I've done of and I can go for a run and I've done like various half marathons and things, like various half marathons and things, like various half marathons and things, but then to be completely like a newbie but then to be completely like a newbie but then to be completely like a newbie and just be like, but I can't remember and just be like, but I can't remember and just be like, but I can't remember my left and right, you know? It's uh my left and right, you know? It's uh my left and right, you know? It's uh it's humbling, but it's just it's been it's humbling, but it's just it's been it's humbling, but it's just it's been such a tonic. It's unreal. such a tonic. It's unreal. such a tonic. It's unreal. Tommy Wood has been on the show uh Tommy Wood has been on the show uh Tommy Wood has been on the show uh several times, including just a couple several times, including just a couple several times, including just a couple of weeks ago. And Tommy's this of weeks ago. And Tommy's this of weeks ago. And Tommy's this incredible medical doctor who's um you incredible medical doctor who's um you incredible medical doctor who's um you know, works in uh pediatric neurology know, works in uh pediatric neurology know, works in uh pediatric neurology and he's got a PhD and he's he's just so and he's got a PhD and he's he's just so and he's got a PhD and he's he's just so knowledgeable and so grounded in the knowledgeable and so grounded in the knowledgeable and so grounded in the advice that he gives. And Tommy has been advice that he gives. And Tommy has been advice that he gives. And Tommy has been saying for years that he thinks one of saying for years that he thinks one of saying for years that he thinks one of the main things that drives a decline in the main things that drives a decline in the main things that drives a decline in brain function as we get older M brain function as we get older M brain function as we get older M >> is that we're not stimulating the brain >> is that we're not stimulating the brain >> is that we're not stimulating the brain with new things. So he is a big fan of with new things. So he is a big fan of with new things. So he is a big fan of us us us >> becoming a beginner again at something, >> becoming a beginner again at something, >> becoming a beginner again at something, right? Rather than Yeah, there's nothing right? Rather than Yeah, there's nothing right? Rather than Yeah, there's nothing wrong with wanting mastery in something wrong with wanting mastery in something wrong with wanting mastery in something and trying to get even better. and trying to get even better. and trying to get even better. >> But I think for our brains it's very >> But I think for our brains it's very >> But I think for our brains it's very very good every few years to try very good every few years to try very good every few years to try something brand new where we aren't very something brand new where we aren't very something brand new where we aren't very good and then we learn because the brain good and then we learn because the brain good and then we learn because the brain then has to grow stronger to learn those then has to grow stronger to learn those then has to grow stronger to learn those new things. new things. new things. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> that was one thing I thought about. The >> that was one thing I thought about. The >> that was one thing I thought about. The other thing I thought about was other thing I thought about was other thing I thought about was so much of the advice so much of the advice so much of the advice that's given these days online in books is about solo pursuits. online in books is about solo pursuits. >> It's about you know what you're overly >> It's about you know what you're overly >> It's about you know what you're overly stressed which is true for many if not stressed which is true for many if not stressed which is true for many if not most people. These things can help you. most people. These things can help you. most people. These things can help you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. But the onus then becomes on us >> Right. But the onus then becomes on us >> Right. But the onus then becomes on us to find time to meditate, to find time to find time to meditate, to find time to find time to meditate, to find time for our workout, to find time to cook or for our workout, to find time to cook or for our workout, to find time to cook or whatever it might be. And and and that's whatever it might be. And and and that's whatever it might be. And and and that's all great. And I think we do need to all great. And I think we do need to all great. And I think we do need to find some of that individual time in our find some of that individual time in our find some of that individual time in our lives. lives. lives. >> But there is also something really >> But there is also something really >> But there is also something really beautiful about beautiful about beautiful about doing things in a group, isn't there? doing things in a group, isn't there? doing things in a group, isn't there? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Which I think we lost in co I think >> Which I think we lost in co I think >> Which I think we lost in co I think society has forgotten this. Yeah. society has forgotten this. Yeah. society has forgotten this. Yeah. >> And I think there's a hangover from that >> And I think there's a hangover from that >> And I think there's a hangover from that hasn't fully hasn't fully hasn't fully >> been returned yet. >> been returned yet. >> been returned yet. >> We can do our yoga on YouTube. >> We can do our yoga on YouTube. >> We can do our yoga on YouTube. >> You know, we can do the Pilates workout >> You know, we can do the Pilates workout >> You know, we can do the Pilates workout on this online course. Okay, great. And on this online course. Okay, great. And on this online course. Okay, great. And it ain't the same thing it ain't the same thing it ain't the same thing >> as doing it in a community because >> as doing it in a community because >> as doing it in a community because nourishing relationships in and of nourishing relationships in and of nourishing relationships in and of themselves themselves themselves >> lower your stress >> lower your stress >> lower your stress >> 100% >> 100% >> 100% >> irrespective of what you do. And >> irrespective of what you do. And >> irrespective of what you do. And actually, actually, actually, >> I want to talk to you about meditation >> I want to talk to you about meditation >> I want to talk to you about meditation and its impact on the immune system, but and its impact on the immune system, but and its impact on the immune system, but I've actually two weeks ago was on a I've actually two weeks ago was on a I've actually two weeks ago was on a 4-day meditation retreat. I never 4-day meditation retreat. I never 4-day meditation retreat. I never meditated in a group before. meditated in a group before. meditated in a group before. >> I didn't know I could meditate for that >> I didn't know I could meditate for that >> I didn't know I could meditate for that long. I was a bit nervous before I went, long. I was a bit nervous before I went, long. I was a bit nervous before I went, can I meditate kind of most of the day? can I meditate kind of most of the day? can I meditate kind of most of the day? >> It was one of the best things I've done >> It was one of the best things I've done >> It was one of the best things I've done >> and I I really thought I really >> and I I really thought I really >> and I I really thought I really experienced, oh, experienced, oh, experienced, oh, >> there's a benefit in meditating in the >> there's a benefit in meditating in the >> there's a benefit in meditating in the same room as 10 other people who are same room as 10 other people who are same room as 10 other people who are also doing it. So, how much do you think also doing it. So, how much do you think also doing it. So, how much do you think I I guess you've already answered it, I I guess you've already answered it, I I guess you've already answered it, but you know, what do you think but you know, what do you think but you know, what do you think community and doing things with other community and doing things with other community and doing things with other people, what's the impact that that can people, what's the impact that that can people, what's the impact that that can have on our immune system, would you have on our immune system, would you have on our immune system, would you say? say? say? >> Yeah. Well, there was a really >> Yeah. Well, there was a really >> Yeah. Well, there was a really interesting study actually when I interesting study actually when I interesting study actually when I started getting into jiu-jitsu, started started getting into jiu-jitsu, started started getting into jiu-jitsu, started looking at the research obviously like a looking at the research obviously like a looking at the research obviously like a true nerd and um there's a really true nerd and um there's a really true nerd and um there's a really interesting study showing like the the interesting study showing like the the interesting study showing like the the um oxytocin response. So, this is a um oxytocin response. So, this is a um oxytocin response. So, this is a neurochemical that is to do with love neurochemical that is to do with love neurochemical that is to do with love and bonding, but not just um the and bonding, but not just um the and bonding, but not just um the romantic love, but you know, it could be romantic love, but you know, it could be romantic love, but you know, it could be with people, friends, the favorite with people, friends, the favorite with people, friends, the favorite barista at your coffee shop. Um and that barista at your coffee shop. Um and that barista at your coffee shop. Um and that you get this boost of uh oxytocin when you get this boost of uh oxytocin when you get this boost of uh oxytocin when you're um grappling with someone in you're um grappling with someone in you're um grappling with someone in jiu-jitsu and uh that this has a bigger jiu-jitsu and uh that this has a bigger jiu-jitsu and uh that this has a bigger health benefits because it's very health benefits because it's very health benefits because it's very anti-inflammatory. It's calming. It's anti-inflammatory. It's calming. It's anti-inflammatory. It's calming. It's giving you a sense of safety because giving you a sense of safety because giving you a sense of safety because ultimately humans evolved in ultimately humans evolved in ultimately humans evolved in communities. you know, we um need each communities. you know, we um need each communities. you know, we um need each other. Uh I don't go and grow all my own other. Uh I don't go and grow all my own other. Uh I don't go and grow all my own food myself. I might do something in the food myself. I might do something in the food myself. I might do something in the garden, but ultimately I have to rely on garden, but ultimately I have to rely on garden, but ultimately I have to rely on many many other people in the food chain many many other people in the food chain many many other people in the food chain to be able to eat. There's always been to be able to eat. There's always been to be able to eat. There's always been this aspect of our survival that relies this aspect of our survival that relies this aspect of our survival that relies on other people. And so when we need on other people. And so when we need on other people. And so when we need community and there is a again that community and there is a again that community and there is a again that neurochemical imprint of being around neurochemical imprint of being around neurochemical imprint of being around people and that again your immune cells people and that again your immune cells people and that again your immune cells have receptors for those chemicals on have receptors for those chemicals on have receptors for those chemicals on the surface too. So you're feeling it. the surface too. So you're feeling it. the surface too. So you're feeling it. You're feeling the warmth of chatting to You're feeling the warmth of chatting to You're feeling the warmth of chatting to to the you know your neighbor as you to the you know your neighbor as you to the you know your neighbor as you leave for work. you feel like, oh, leave for work. you feel like, oh, leave for work. you feel like, oh, there's someone there in my community, there's someone there in my community, there's someone there in my community, but then your body is also experiencing but then your body is also experiencing but then your body is also experiencing this sort of sense of safety, which this sort of sense of safety, which this sort of sense of safety, which again is really good for your nervous again is really good for your nervous again is really good for your nervous system and by proxy the immune system. system and by proxy the immune system. system and by proxy the immune system. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> I also think there's something in the >> I also think there's something in the >> I also think there's something in the heart rate, you know, because we have heart rate, you know, because we have heart rate, you know, because we have that kind of uh electromagnetic field that kind of uh electromagnetic field that kind of uh electromagnetic field that our heart is emitting and it's much that our heart is emitting and it's much that our heart is emitting and it's much stronger than any other part of our stronger than any other part of our stronger than any other part of our body. So, you can also detect the brain, body. So, you can also detect the brain, body. So, you can also detect the brain, but you imagine the ECG on like a but you imagine the ECG on like a but you imagine the ECG on like a medical TV show people might have seen. medical TV show people might have seen. medical TV show people might have seen. Um, you can detect that outside of the Um, you can detect that outside of the Um, you can detect that outside of the body. I can't remember exactly how far body. I can't remember exactly how far body. I can't remember exactly how far it emanates, it emanates, it emanates, >> but I always think about it in terms of >> but I always think about it in terms of >> but I always think about it in terms of my kids, like if one of them is out my kids, like if one of them is out my kids, like if one of them is out playing and they fall over, playing and they fall over, playing and they fall over, >> they start crying, you know, that real >> they start crying, you know, that real >> they start crying, you know, that real kind of hyperventilating crying, really kind of hyperventilating crying, really kind of hyperventilating crying, really upset, and you bring them into your upset, and you bring them into your upset, and you bring them into your chest and you're calm because you know chest and you're calm because you know chest and you're calm because you know everything's fine. and your heart has everything's fine. and your heart has everything's fine. and your heart has this more powerful electromagnetic field this more powerful electromagnetic field this more powerful electromagnetic field than their little heart does and you get than their little heart does and you get than their little heart does and you get this like phase lock response. So this like phase lock response. So this like phase lock response. So imagine two pendulum clocks on the wall. imagine two pendulum clocks on the wall. imagine two pendulum clocks on the wall. Eventually they phase lock onto each Eventually they phase lock onto each Eventually they phase lock onto each other which means they kind of swing at other which means they kind of swing at other which means they kind of swing at the same time and the little heart is the same time and the little heart is the same time and the little heart is >> using the bigger calm heart to help calm >> using the bigger calm heart to help calm >> using the bigger calm heart to help calm and bring themselves back to baseline. and bring themselves back to baseline. and bring themselves back to baseline. And then you know the kid is fine and And then you know the kid is fine and And then you know the kid is fine and they run off and play again. And so I they run off and play again. And so I they run off and play again. And so I think when we're around people, we're think when we're around people, we're think when we're around people, we're sensing as we sit here today, like your sensing as we sit here today, like your sensing as we sit here today, like your heart is giving off an electromagnetic heart is giving off an electromagnetic heart is giving off an electromagnetic field, so is mine. And if we're both field, so is mine. And if we're both field, so is mine. And if we're both calm, they're sort of going to phase calm, they're sort of going to phase calm, they're sort of going to phase lock into each other. If I was lock into each other. If I was lock into each other. If I was incredibly stressed, it might be very incredibly stressed, it might be very incredibly stressed, it might be very calming to talk to you as a friend if calming to talk to you as a friend if calming to talk to you as a friend if you were feeling very calm. So that's you were feeling very calm. So that's you were feeling very calm. So that's why it can be good to go go meet a why it can be good to go go meet a why it can be good to go go meet a friend when you're stressed who's maybe friend when you're stressed who's maybe friend when you're stressed who's maybe able to be that kind of strong calm beat able to be that kind of strong calm beat able to be that kind of strong calm beat that you can sort of benefit from being that you can sort of benefit from being that you can sort of benefit from being close to. close to. close to. >> Yeah. Makes me think now back to the >> Yeah. Makes me think now back to the >> Yeah. Makes me think now back to the case study I shared with you about the case study I shared with you about the case study I shared with you about the lady with Crohn's. lady with Crohn's. lady with Crohn's. >> How much of that improvement also came >> How much of that improvement also came >> How much of that improvement also came from her doing a salsa dancing class in from her doing a salsa dancing class in from her doing a salsa dancing class in a group? a group? a group? >> For sure. Yeah. And you're up close with >> For sure. Yeah. And you're up close with >> For sure. Yeah. And you're up close with someone. Yeah. you're getting all their someone. Yeah. you're getting all their someone. Yeah. you're getting all their body language. body language. body language. >> This one I probably hadn't thought about >> This one I probably hadn't thought about >> This one I probably hadn't thought about as much, as much, as much, >> but I did think about when you mentioned >> but I did think about when you mentioned >> but I did think about when you mentioned jiu-jitsu cuz I did think there's a lot jiu-jitsu cuz I did think there's a lot jiu-jitsu cuz I did think there's a lot of close contact, of close contact, of close contact, >> right? And um there's a there's a chap >> right? And um there's a there's a chap >> right? And um there's a there's a chap called Professor Francis Mcloone from called Professor Francis Mcloone from called Professor Francis Mcloone from the University of Liverpool. I've known the University of Liverpool. I've known the University of Liverpool. I've known Francis for years. He's brilliant. In Francis for years. He's brilliant. In Francis for years. He's brilliant. In fact, I think it's time to get him back fact, I think it's time to get him back fact, I think it's time to get him back on the show. He on the show. He on the show. He came on maybe episode 30, maybe like in came on maybe episode 30, maybe like in came on maybe episode 30, maybe like in the first gear, but he was basically the first gear, but he was basically the first gear, but he was basically talking about talking about talking about >> how we have a touch deficiency. >> how we have a touch deficiency. >> how we have a touch deficiency. >> Oh yes. >> Oh yes. >> Oh yes. >> In the modern world. And you know, just >> In the modern world. And you know, just >> In the modern world. And you know, just to be clear, we're talking about safe to be clear, we're talking about safe to be clear, we're talking about safe >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> consensual touch. Yeah. >> consensual touch. Yeah. >> consensual touch. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> But he has done a lot of research >> But he has done a lot of research >> But he has done a lot of research showing how important showing how important showing how important >> that safe consensual touch is for human >> that safe consensual touch is for human >> that safe consensual touch is for human beings. Yes. Mother child for sure. But beings. Yes. Mother child for sure. But beings. Yes. Mother child for sure. But also beyond that, like we need it and also beyond that, like we need it and also beyond that, like we need it and there are certain receptors that there are certain receptors that there are certain receptors that actually only get triggered when you actually only get triggered when you actually only get triggered when you give it that touch. give it that touch. give it that touch. >> Yeah. I mean, you go to hug a friend, >> Yeah. I mean, you go to hug a friend, >> Yeah. I mean, you go to hug a friend, don't you? It's like the natural don't you? It's like the natural don't you? It's like the natural reaction when you see people that you reaction when you see people that you reaction when you see people that you care about care about care about >> is to to touch them or put your arm >> is to to touch them or put your arm >> is to to touch them or put your arm around someone you know who's really around someone you know who's really around someone you know who's really upset. It's kind of an instinct almost. upset. It's kind of an instinct almost. upset. It's kind of an instinct almost. >> Yeah. And and looking at that through >> Yeah. And and looking at that through >> Yeah. And and looking at that through the lens of the immune system, we know the lens of the immune system, we know the lens of the immune system, we know that those things are anti-inflammatory. that those things are anti-inflammatory. that those things are anti-inflammatory. So of course that So of course that So of course that >> anti-inflammatory component is mediated >> anti-inflammatory component is mediated >> anti-inflammatory component is mediated through the immune system. through the immune system. through the immune system. >> Yes. Right. Exactly. >> Yes. Right. Exactly. >> Yes. Right. Exactly. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> you trained I think to become a >> you trained I think to become a >> you trained I think to become a performance breath work instructor. performance breath work instructor. performance breath work instructor. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Uh relatively recently. >> Uh relatively recently. >> Uh relatively recently. >> Under this kind of umbrella of stress >> Under this kind of umbrella of stress >> Under this kind of umbrella of stress and how it and how it and how it can negatively impact our immune system can negatively impact our immune system can negatively impact our immune system and therefore our health. You mentioned and therefore our health. You mentioned and therefore our health. You mentioned what jiu-jitsu has done for you, which what jiu-jitsu has done for you, which what jiu-jitsu has done for you, which sounds profound. sounds profound. sounds profound. >> Can you briefly mention what you feel >> Can you briefly mention what you feel >> Can you briefly mention what you feel meditation has done for you? Is there meditation has done for you? Is there meditation has done for you? Is there any research on meditation to your any research on meditation to your any research on meditation to your knowledge and what it does for our knowledge and what it does for our knowledge and what it does for our immune system? immune system? immune system? >> And also then let's talk about breath >> And also then let's talk about breath >> And also then let's talk about breath work and how that can also potentially work and how that can also potentially work and how that can also potentially help. help. help. >> I'm delighted to announce that AG1, the >> I'm delighted to announce that AG1, the >> I'm delighted to announce that AG1, the daily health drink that has been in my daily health drink that has been in my daily health drink that has been in my own life for over 6 years now, have own life for over 6 years now, have own life for over 6 years now, have updated and improved their formulation updated and improved their formulation updated and improved their formulation based upon the latest science. and to based upon the latest science. and to based upon the latest science. and to celebrate by giving my audience a very celebrate by giving my audience a very celebrate by giving my audience a very special offer. Some of the upgrades special offer. Some of the upgrades special offer. Some of the upgrades include more magnesium which supports include more magnesium which supports include more magnesium which supports muscle function and improves the ability muscle function and improves the ability muscle function and improves the ability of your nervous system to relax and also of your nervous system to relax and also of your nervous system to relax and also five strains of bacteria instead of just five strains of bacteria instead of just five strains of bacteria instead of just two to reflect the latest advances in two to reflect the latest advances in two to reflect the latest advances in microbiome science. It also contains key microbiome science. It also contains key microbiome science. It also contains key nutrients like vitamin C, biotin, nutrients like vitamin C, biotin, nutrients like vitamin C, biotin, niacin, vitamin B6, rioplavin, thamine, niacin, vitamin B6, rioplavin, thamine, niacin, vitamin B6, rioplavin, thamine, zinc, and folate in bioavailable forms zinc, and folate in bioavailable forms zinc, and folate in bioavailable forms the body can easily and readily utilize the body can easily and readily utilize the body can easily and readily utilize maximizing their potential benefits. maximizing their potential benefits. maximizing their potential benefits. Nutrition can often seem really Nutrition can often seem really Nutrition can often seem really complicated. What diet should we be complicated. What diet should we be complicated. What diet should we be following? What supplements should we be following? What supplements should we be following? What supplements should we be taking? And I think that's one of the taking? And I think that's one of the taking? And I think that's one of the main reasons I really like AG1. They main reasons I really like AG1. They main reasons I really like AG1. They make it really simple for you to be the make it really simple for you to be the make it really simple for you to be the best version of you. Over 70 best version of you. Over 70 best version of you. Over 70 ingredients, one scoop once a day for ingredients, one scoop once a day for ingredients, one scoop once a day for less than a cup of coffee. So, if you less than a cup of coffee. So, if you less than a cup of coffee. So, if you want to support your health seven want to support your health seven want to support your health seven mornings a week, get started with AG1. mornings a week, get started with AG1. mornings a week, get started with AG1. And right now, we have a very special And right now, we have a very special And right now, we have a very special limited time offer. Get a free AG1 limited time offer. Get a free AG1 limited time offer. Get a free AG1 flavor sampler and AGZ sampler to try flavor sampler and AGZ sampler to try flavor sampler and AGZ sampler to try all the flavors, plus free vitamin D3 all the flavors, plus free vitamin D3 all the flavors, plus free vitamin D3 and K2 and AG1 welcome kit with your and K2 and AG1 welcome kit with your and K2 and AG1 welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. See all first AG1 subscription order. See all first AG1 subscription order. See all details at drink ag.com/live Well, meditation had kind of um Well, meditation had kind of um touched on in my life many times and I touched on in my life many times and I touched on in my life many times and I don't know if I just didn't have the don't know if I just didn't have the don't know if I just didn't have the quite right teacher or you know hadn't quite right teacher or you know hadn't quite right teacher or you know hadn't grasped what meditation really meant. I grasped what meditation really meant. I grasped what meditation really meant. I do think there's a kind of perception do think there's a kind of perception do think there's a kind of perception that it's going to make everyone really that it's going to make everyone really that it's going to make everyone really calm and zen. Uh and I don't think it's calm and zen. Uh and I don't think it's calm and zen. Uh and I don't think it's that anymore. I think it's being able to that anymore. I think it's being able to that anymore. I think it's being able to observe your mind and have a bit more observe your mind and have a bit more observe your mind and have a bit more agency over your mind. Um, but then I agency over your mind. Um, but then I agency over your mind. Um, but then I had this real kind of rock bottom moment had this real kind of rock bottom moment had this real kind of rock bottom moment in my life where I was just like, I in my life where I was just like, I in my life where I was just like, I can't do anything. I'm just going to can't do anything. I'm just going to can't do anything. I'm just going to sit. And it was just after the kids gone sit. And it was just after the kids gone sit. And it was just after the kids gone to bed and the house was quiet and I was to bed and the house was quiet and I was to bed and the house was quiet and I was just on my own. And I was like, I'm just just on my own. And I was like, I'm just just on my own. And I was like, I'm just going to sit and see how long I can sit going to sit and see how long I can sit going to sit and see how long I can sit cuz I'm literally I'm out of options. cuz I'm literally I'm out of options. cuz I'm literally I'm out of options. I'm out of ideas. I I don't know what to I'm out of ideas. I I don't know what to I'm out of ideas. I I don't know what to do with my next step, my next day. Um, do with my next step, my next day. Um, do with my next step, my next day. Um, and from that came a a daily habit that and from that came a a daily habit that and from that came a a daily habit that I just couldn't not do. And um, it's I just couldn't not do. And um, it's I just couldn't not do. And um, it's it's just never stopped. And and I look it's just never stopped. And and I look it's just never stopped. And and I look forward to it. And sometimes I do it for forward to it. And sometimes I do it for forward to it. And sometimes I do it for longer. And sometimes it's in the longer. And sometimes it's in the longer. And sometimes it's in the garden, sometimes it's, you know, I have garden, sometimes it's, you know, I have garden, sometimes it's, you know, I have a little area in my house where it's a little area in my house where it's a little area in my house where it's always comfortable with a little rug and always comfortable with a little rug and always comfortable with a little rug and stuff so that when it's cold, I I want stuff so that when it's cold, I I want stuff so that when it's cold, I I want to do it. And it's been really profound to do it. And it's been really profound to do it. And it's been really profound just get to know myself a bit better. just get to know myself a bit better. just get to know myself a bit better. and to and to and to give myself space, like mental space, give myself space, like mental space, give myself space, like mental space, and be able to see the thoughts kind of and be able to see the thoughts kind of and be able to see the thoughts kind of flowing through and be like, "Ah, it's flowing through and be like, "Ah, it's flowing through and be like, "Ah, it's fine. They're they're just thoughts," fine. They're they're just thoughts," fine. They're they're just thoughts," rather than like clinging on to rather than like clinging on to rather than like clinging on to everything and thinking, "This is, you everything and thinking, "This is, you everything and thinking, "This is, you know, the end of the world." It was it know, the end of the world." It was it know, the end of the world." It was it was like I couldn't not. Um, and so was like I couldn't not. Um, and so was like I couldn't not. Um, and so after years of being on and off after years of being on and off after years of being on and off meditation, it just suddenly clicked meditation, it just suddenly clicked meditation, it just suddenly clicked into place. And yeah, that's that's it. into place. And yeah, that's that's it. into place. And yeah, that's that's it. But then I was very interested in in But then I was very interested in in But then I was very interested in in breath work having gone to various breath work having gone to various breath work having gone to various different you know courses, classes, different you know courses, classes, different you know courses, classes, events and touched on different styles events and touched on different styles events and touched on different styles and forms and I just kind of wanted to and forms and I just kind of wanted to and forms and I just kind of wanted to know how I could use it in daily life. know how I could use it in daily life. know how I could use it in daily life. Like I think it's fine to go and do a Like I think it's fine to go and do a Like I think it's fine to go and do a really intensive workshop but I was like really intensive workshop but I was like really intensive workshop but I was like I found the little things I can do every I found the little things I can do every I found the little things I can do every day are much more profound. and then day are much more profound. and then day are much more profound. and then maybe you build up to like a retreat or maybe you build up to like a retreat or maybe you build up to like a retreat or something. And so I came across um the something. And so I came across um the something. And so I came across um the biomechanics of breathing. And again, biomechanics of breathing. And again, biomechanics of breathing. And again, this is kind of all wrapped up in like this is kind of all wrapped up in like this is kind of all wrapped up in like having this chronic pain that I'd been having this chronic pain that I'd been having this chronic pain that I'd been dealing with dealing with dealing with >> and realizing that inherently when you >> and realizing that inherently when you >> and realizing that inherently when you take an inhale, this is kind of the take an inhale, this is kind of the take an inhale, this is kind of the sympathetic part of the um nervous sympathetic part of the um nervous sympathetic part of the um nervous system because your breath is kind of system because your breath is kind of system because your breath is kind of connected to your nervous system connected to your nervous system connected to your nervous system >> and you have lots of mechano receptors >> and you have lots of mechano receptors >> and you have lots of mechano receptors on your lungs. So when you're inhaling, on your lungs. So when you're inhaling, on your lungs. So when you're inhaling, you're changing the anatomy and then you're changing the anatomy and then you're changing the anatomy and then you're exhaling um it's changing again you're exhaling um it's changing again you're exhaling um it's changing again and the exhale is is activating the and the exhale is is activating the and the exhale is is activating the parasympathetic. So the more rest and parasympathetic. So the more rest and parasympathetic. So the more rest and digest. So you have this constantly digest. So you have this constantly digest. So you have this constantly going on with every breath. And then you going on with every breath. And then you going on with every breath. And then you kind of get the overall bigger picture kind of get the overall bigger picture kind of get the overall bigger picture across the days and weeks. And then just across the days and weeks. And then just across the days and weeks. And then just the simple thing of like I can change my the simple thing of like I can change my the simple thing of like I can change my exhale and change how I feel exhale and change how I feel exhale and change how I feel >> was just amazing to me because I was >> was just amazing to me because I was >> was just amazing to me because I was like right that's a real time tool. You like right that's a real time tool. You like right that's a real time tool. You know you've got the the meditation was know you've got the the meditation was know you've got the the meditation was kind of the future proofing tool. Like kind of the future proofing tool. Like kind of the future proofing tool. Like if I'm really stressed I'm probably not if I'm really stressed I'm probably not if I'm really stressed I'm probably not going to sit down and meditate. I'm going to sit down and meditate. I'm going to sit down and meditate. I'm doing that when I feel kind of normal doing that when I feel kind of normal doing that when I feel kind of normal and it's a future proofing so that when and it's a future proofing so that when and it's a future proofing so that when the stressful moment hits I've got that the stressful moment hits I've got that the stressful moment hits I've got that space between how I my brain responds. space between how I my brain responds. space between how I my brain responds. But the breath was like the real time But the breath was like the real time But the breath was like the real time tool. Like I'm in the supermarket and I tool. Like I'm in the supermarket and I tool. Like I'm in the supermarket and I get a stressful phone call. Um I can get a stressful phone call. Um I can get a stressful phone call. Um I can quickly anchor into my breathing. When I quickly anchor into my breathing. When I quickly anchor into my breathing. When I was trying to recover in the gym, I was trying to recover in the gym, I was trying to recover in the gym, I could use my breath to ma like could use my breath to ma like could use my breath to ma like completely manage my pain. And that to completely manage my pain. And that to completely manage my pain. And that to me just blew my mind. And then realizing me just blew my mind. And then realizing me just blew my mind. And then realizing that the diaphragm is this amazing that the diaphragm is this amazing that the diaphragm is this amazing muscle that we don't think about as a muscle that we don't think about as a muscle that we don't think about as a muscle. We don't train it like a muscle. muscle. We don't train it like a muscle. muscle. We don't train it like a muscle. Um, and thinking that just by having an Um, and thinking that just by having an Um, and thinking that just by having an awareness of my my diaphragm, my rib awareness of my my diaphragm, my rib awareness of my my diaphragm, my rib cage expansion, whether I'm using um all cage expansion, whether I'm using um all cage expansion, whether I'm using um all the accessory muscles in my neck and the accessory muscles in my neck and the accessory muscles in my neck and breathing up here or whether I'm taking breathing up here or whether I'm taking breathing up here or whether I'm taking a full deep breath, it can affect my a full deep breath, it can affect my a full deep breath, it can affect my performance in the gym or how, you know, performance in the gym or how, you know, performance in the gym or how, you know, my ability to do jiu-jitsu and stay calm my ability to do jiu-jitsu and stay calm my ability to do jiu-jitsu and stay calm in those rounds. and um or or just in those rounds. and um or or just in those rounds. and um or or just before a big stressful meeting or after before a big stressful meeting or after before a big stressful meeting or after a long day before I go to bed I can do a long day before I go to bed I can do a long day before I go to bed I can do different breathing techniques and so I different breathing techniques and so I different breathing techniques and so I did the um practitioner training to did the um practitioner training to did the um practitioner training to deepen my own understanding and then deepen my own understanding and then deepen my own understanding and then from that now I've started to bring it from that now I've started to bring it from that now I've started to bring it into other areas and do I love doing into other areas and do I love doing into other areas and do I love doing workshops or even if I have a meeting at workshops or even if I have a meeting at workshops or even if I have a meeting at work sometimes I start with a little work sometimes I start with a little work sometimes I start with a little breath work or something because I think breath work or something because I think breath work or something because I think it's just nice to sprinkle that into to it's just nice to sprinkle that into to it's just nice to sprinkle that into to daily life. Have you seen any research daily life. Have you seen any research daily life. Have you seen any research on breath work andor meditation and the on breath work andor meditation and the on breath work andor meditation and the immune system? Or is it more we know immune system? Or is it more we know immune system? Or is it more we know that chronic stress negatively impacts that chronic stress negatively impacts that chronic stress negatively impacts the immune system and we know that the immune system and we know that the immune system and we know that meditation and breath work can help meditation and breath work can help meditation and breath work can help lower the chronic stress? lower the chronic stress? lower the chronic stress? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Or have you seen anything sort of >> Or have you seen anything sort of >> Or have you seen anything sort of direct? Yeah, I think there's definitely direct? Yeah, I think there's definitely direct? Yeah, I think there's definitely the stress link and meditation is the stress link and meditation is the stress link and meditation is probably more studied and there we do probably more studied and there we do probably more studied and there we do have like really amazing uh tangible have like really amazing uh tangible have like really amazing uh tangible differences in in you know actual differences in in you know actual differences in in you know actual empirical data measuring blood markers empirical data measuring blood markers empirical data measuring blood markers looking at um symptom scores and things looking at um symptom scores and things looking at um symptom scores and things on people when they're taught and and on people when they're taught and and on people when they're taught and and implement different meditation implement different meditation implement different meditation techniques. I do think it can be harder techniques. I do think it can be harder techniques. I do think it can be harder if you have a serious trauma like to sit if you have a serious trauma like to sit if you have a serious trauma like to sit with yourself. I think that maybe with yourself. I think that maybe with yourself. I think that maybe sometimes you have to get a sense of sometimes you have to get a sense of sometimes you have to get a sense of safety in your body before you can sit safety in your body before you can sit safety in your body before you can sit with yourself, which I think then comes with yourself, which I think then comes with yourself, which I think then comes from things like little moments of from things like little moments of from things like little moments of breath work, helping extend your exhale, breath work, helping extend your exhale, breath work, helping extend your exhale, helping your rib cage placement, helping your rib cage placement, helping your rib cage placement, grounding your feet into the earth, like grounding your feet into the earth, like grounding your feet into the earth, like those little things that make the body those little things that make the body those little things that make the body feel safe feel safe feel safe >> before you can just sit there with >> before you can just sit there with >> before you can just sit there with yourself. So, I think it sort of depends yourself. So, I think it sort of depends yourself. So, I think it sort of depends where you're starting. If you're finding where you're starting. If you're finding where you're starting. If you're finding meditation hard, meditation hard, meditation hard, >> it's like it's a process and a journey, >> it's like it's a process and a journey, >> it's like it's a process and a journey, I think. One thing I've always loved I think. One thing I've always loved I think. One thing I've always loved about Eugene is I I feel you've always about Eugene is I I feel you've always about Eugene is I I feel you've always taken a very holistic approach to taken a very holistic approach to taken a very holistic approach to health and well-being, which you don't health and well-being, which you don't health and well-being, which you don't always see with always see with always see with >> scientists and it really it feels as >> scientists and it really it feels as >> scientists and it really it feels as though you've really taken that on more though you've really taken that on more though you've really taken that on more and more over the last years. how you and more over the last years. how you and more over the last years. how you just described, just described, just described, you know, the breath and the diaphragm. you know, the breath and the diaphragm. you know, the breath and the diaphragm. And I've realized over the past few And I've realized over the past few And I've realized over the past few years that your posture plays a huge years that your posture plays a huge years that your posture plays a huge role in this because if you've got a role in this because if you've got a role in this because if you've got a forward flex posture, forward flex posture, forward flex posture, >> you can have stuck ribs, you can have a >> you can have stuck ribs, you can have a >> you can have stuck ribs, you can have a stuck diaphragm. stuck diaphragm. stuck diaphragm. >> Yeah. And I think a lot of us don't >> Yeah. And I think a lot of us don't >> Yeah. And I think a lot of us don't realize that actually realize that actually realize that actually if you think about upstream causes if if you think about upstream causes if if you think about upstream causes if you have got postural inefficiencies you have got postural inefficiencies you have got postural inefficiencies that you're not aware of that you're not aware of that you're not aware of >> that is naturally putting you in a more >> that is naturally putting you in a more >> that is naturally putting you in a more stressed state. Your diaphragm isn't as stressed state. Your diaphragm isn't as stressed state. Your diaphragm isn't as free to move. So you're not going to get free to move. So you're not going to get free to move. So you're not going to get as many of those benefits. So it's these as many of those benefits. So it's these as many of those benefits. So it's these little micro things that little micro things that little micro things that >> we're not thinking about enough, are we? >> we're not thinking about enough, are we? >> we're not thinking about enough, are we? >> Yeah. And it just takes a little bit of >> Yeah. And it just takes a little bit of >> Yeah. And it just takes a little bit of awareness. And I think it also takes awareness. And I think it also takes awareness. And I think it also takes repetition. repetition, you know, just repetition. repetition, you know, just repetition. repetition, you know, just like if I am spending lots of days on my like if I am spending lots of days on my like if I am spending lots of days on my computer and realizing that I'm all like computer and realizing that I'm all like computer and realizing that I'm all like this and I'm just breathing in my upper this and I'm just breathing in my upper this and I'm just breathing in my upper chest and by the end of the day I just chest and by the end of the day I just chest and by the end of the day I just I've taken way more breaths than I I've taken way more breaths than I I've taken way more breaths than I should have or needed to and everything should have or needed to and everything should have or needed to and everything has an energetic cost. So even breathing has an energetic cost. So even breathing has an energetic cost. So even breathing has an energetic cost. So if you're has an energetic cost. So if you're has an energetic cost. So if you're breathing at a higher rate because breathing at a higher rate because breathing at a higher rate because you're not breathing efficiently, you're you're not breathing efficiently, you're you're not breathing efficiently, you're going to feel tired at the end of the going to feel tired at the end of the going to feel tired at the end of the day. So there's a like an easy win is day. So there's a like an easy win is day. So there's a like an easy win is just you know little things like setting just you know little things like setting just you know little things like setting an alarm so that every like hour I kind an alarm so that every like hour I kind an alarm so that every like hour I kind of reset everything and do that of reset everything and do that of reset everything and do that repeatedly until it becomes programmed repeatedly until it becomes programmed repeatedly until it becomes programmed in. It's like you know brushing your in. It's like you know brushing your in. It's like you know brushing your teeth you just it's automatic but you teeth you just it's automatic but you teeth you just it's automatic but you have like with my kids had to remind have like with my kids had to remind have like with my kids had to remind them to brush the teeth when they were them to brush the teeth when they were them to brush the teeth when they were very little until it became automatic. very little until it became automatic. very little until it became automatic. It's the same with anything like that. It's the same with anything like that. It's the same with anything like that. like I I know all the stuff like I I know all the stuff like I I know all the stuff intellectually about how I should sit at intellectually about how I should sit at intellectually about how I should sit at my desk and and my breathing, but I'll my desk and and my breathing, but I'll my desk and and my breathing, but I'll still find myself like slumped, you still find myself like slumped, you still find myself like slumped, you know, and it's just like, okay, I need know, and it's just like, okay, I need know, and it's just like, okay, I need those nudges and just accepting that I those nudges and just accepting that I those nudges and just accepting that I think is really useful. think is really useful. think is really useful. >> We mentioned self-compassion. We've >> We mentioned self-compassion. We've >> We mentioned self-compassion. We've taken a bit of a dive into stress. What taken a bit of a dive into stress. What taken a bit of a dive into stress. What about diet and our immune system? You about diet and our immune system? You about diet and our immune system? You know, where are you at these days? How know, where are you at these days? How know, where are you at these days? How do you think about it? And how has that do you think about it? And how has that do you think about it? And how has that evolved since the last time you were on evolved since the last time you were on evolved since the last time you were on the show? the show? the show? >> Yeah, you know, it was funny. I was uh I >> Yeah, you know, it was funny. I was uh I >> Yeah, you know, it was funny. I was uh I had a doctor's appointment the other day had a doctor's appointment the other day had a doctor's appointment the other day and and they were like, "So, what are and and they were like, "So, what are and and they were like, "So, what are you?" And I was like, "What do you mean you?" And I was like, "What do you mean you?" And I was like, "What do you mean what are you?" And they're like, "Are what are you?" And they're like, "Are what are you?" And they're like, "Are you are you low carb? Are you high you are you low carb? Are you high you are you low carb? Are you high protein? Are you keto?" I was like, protein? Are you keto?" I was like, protein? Are you keto?" I was like, "That's a strange question." Um but "That's a strange question." Um but "That's a strange question." Um but yeah, I was like, "None of those yeah, I was like, "None of those yeah, I was like, "None of those things." Yeah. Like normal. Um yeah, I things." Yeah. Like normal. Um yeah, I things." Yeah. Like normal. Um yeah, I just kind of tried to drown out the just kind of tried to drown out the just kind of tried to drown out the noise um around food, which I think is noise um around food, which I think is noise um around food, which I think is easier said than done. um and kind of easier said than done. um and kind of easier said than done. um and kind of anchor on and I think wrote about this a anchor on and I think wrote about this a anchor on and I think wrote about this a little bit in the book like you know my little bit in the book like you know my little bit in the book like you know my sort of take my grandmother for example sort of take my grandmother for example sort of take my grandmother for example when she was a kid and what her diet when she was a kid and what her diet when she was a kid and what her diet might have looked like versus mine in might have looked like versus mine in might have looked like versus mine in the 80s as a child versus my own the 80s as a child versus my own the 80s as a child versus my own children now. The food landscape has children now. The food landscape has children now. The food landscape has changed dramatically across that time. changed dramatically across that time. changed dramatically across that time. And that means that my children's And that means that my children's And that means that my children's generation are on a very different generation are on a very different generation are on a very different trajectory in terms of their microbiome. trajectory in terms of their microbiome. trajectory in terms of their microbiome. You know, things like obesity rates and You know, things like obesity rates and You know, things like obesity rates and metabolic health of children. And so I metabolic health of children. And so I metabolic health of children. And so I think that we need to take some think that we need to take some think that we need to take some principles from like I think about the principles from like I think about the principles from like I think about the principles of my grandparents. I grew up principles of my grandparents. I grew up principles of my grandparents. I grew up on a farm when my grandparents lived on a farm when my grandparents lived on a farm when my grandparents lived there. And so you know there was no there. And so you know there was no there. And so you know there was no takeaway. There's no delivery. Even my takeaway. There's no delivery. Even my takeaway. There's no delivery. Even my parents have never used any of these parents have never used any of these parents have never used any of these services and I'm like that's probably a services and I'm like that's probably a services and I'm like that's probably a good thing, you know. Um and just that good thing, you know. Um and just that good thing, you know. Um and just that kind of like three meals that are really kind of like three meals that are really kind of like three meals that are really nourishing that I know keep me going. I nourishing that I know keep me going. I nourishing that I know keep me going. I try and be kind of on it with food try and be kind of on it with food try and be kind of on it with food prepping and stuff and and sharing meals prepping and stuff and and sharing meals prepping and stuff and and sharing meals with my kids and eating at home. Um and with my kids and eating at home. Um and with my kids and eating at home. Um and then you know you slot in around that. then you know you slot in around that. then you know you slot in around that. the busy days, the days where you just the busy days, the days where you just the busy days, the days where you just grab something and there's not really a grab something and there's not really a grab something and there's not really a great deal of choices. Um, and I think great deal of choices. Um, and I think great deal of choices. Um, and I think my philosophy is they don't worry about my philosophy is they don't worry about my philosophy is they don't worry about one or two bad days of the overall one or two bad days of the overall one or two bad days of the overall pattern is is is good. And I think pattern is is is good. And I think pattern is is is good. And I think that's what we've started to see coming that's what we've started to see coming that's what we've started to see coming out in the literature is that dietary out in the literature is that dietary out in the literature is that dietary patterns over time are more important patterns over time are more important patterns over time are more important than worrying about one or two like than worrying about one or two like than worrying about one or two like superfoods. And um, the Mediterranean superfoods. And um, the Mediterranean superfoods. And um, the Mediterranean diet is a great example of that. It's diet is a great example of that. It's diet is a great example of that. It's really well spoken about probably really well spoken about probably really well spoken about probably because it's well studied. It's not the because it's well studied. It's not the because it's well studied. It's not the only diet pattern, but a pattern is just only diet pattern, but a pattern is just only diet pattern, but a pattern is just kind of the types of foods that are kind of the types of foods that are kind of the types of foods that are eaten frequently over time. Um, the eaten frequently over time. Um, the eaten frequently over time. Um, the Mediterranean diet has elements in it Mediterranean diet has elements in it Mediterranean diet has elements in it where we know, okay, olive oil really, where we know, okay, olive oil really, where we know, okay, olive oil really, really important for health. It's kind really important for health. It's kind really important for health. It's kind of stood the test of time, but we have a of stood the test of time, but we have a of stood the test of time, but we have a lot of research to back it up. And it's lot of research to back it up. And it's lot of research to back it up. And it's full of anti-inflammatory compounds. So full of anti-inflammatory compounds. So full of anti-inflammatory compounds. So things like oolanthol is a polyphenol in things like oolanthol is a polyphenol in things like oolanthol is a polyphenol in olive oil that has a similar shape to olive oil that has a similar shape to olive oil that has a similar shape to ibuprofen. So when we're taking it a ibuprofen. So when we're taking it a ibuprofen. So when we're taking it a little bit every day, using it as a little bit every day, using it as a little bit every day, using it as a food, it's kind of nurturing that food, it's kind of nurturing that food, it's kind of nurturing that anti-inflammatory response, but not in anti-inflammatory response, but not in anti-inflammatory response, but not in the way that the pharmaceutical drug the way that the pharmaceutical drug the way that the pharmaceutical drug does. Um, and so they think that that's does. Um, and so they think that that's does. Um, and so they think that that's one of the key reasons the Mediterranean one of the key reasons the Mediterranean one of the key reasons the Mediterranean diet is so closely linked to longevity. diet is so closely linked to longevity. diet is so closely linked to longevity. And olive oil is actually the one thing And olive oil is actually the one thing And olive oil is actually the one thing that links all of the different cuisines that links all of the different cuisines that links all of the different cuisines of the Mediterranean because actually of the Mediterranean because actually of the Mediterranean because actually they're quite different if you go from they're quite different if you go from they're quite different if you go from country to country country to country country to country >> and olive oil is kind of the sort of >> and olive oil is kind of the sort of >> and olive oil is kind of the sort of lynch pin that pulls them all together. lynch pin that pulls them all together. lynch pin that pulls them all together. So I'm a massive olive oil fan um and it So I'm a massive olive oil fan um and it So I'm a massive olive oil fan um and it is safe to cook and there's lots of is safe to cook and there's lots of is safe to cook and there's lots of studies debunking stuff about smoke studies debunking stuff about smoke studies debunking stuff about smoke point and that kind of thing. And point and that kind of thing. And point and that kind of thing. And there's a big trend to shoting it. And there's a big trend to shoting it. And there's a big trend to shoting it. And um I actually did an Instagram video on um I actually did an Instagram video on um I actually did an Instagram video on that because I was like it actually that because I was like it actually that because I was like it actually works better if we take it with food, if works better if we take it with food, if works better if we take it with food, if we use it as it was intended because of we use it as it was intended because of we use it as it was intended because of the way it helps us digest and absorb the way it helps us digest and absorb the way it helps us digest and absorb like fat soluble nutrients, the way that like fat soluble nutrients, the way that like fat soluble nutrients, the way that it sort of is assimilated with a meal it sort of is assimilated with a meal it sort of is assimilated with a meal versus taking it on an empty stomach. So versus taking it on an empty stomach. So versus taking it on an empty stomach. So it might look cool to be shoting your it might look cool to be shoting your it might look cool to be shoting your olive oil instead of tequila, but olive oil instead of tequila, but olive oil instead of tequila, but actually to get the full benefits, have actually to get the full benefits, have actually to get the full benefits, have it, you know, as your Italian it, you know, as your Italian it, you know, as your Italian grandmother might might use it to to grandmother might might use it to to grandmother might might use it to to prepare her food. prepare her food. prepare her food. >> A lot of people, as you just pointed >> A lot of people, as you just pointed >> A lot of people, as you just pointed out, are concerned about doing high heat out, are concerned about doing high heat out, are concerned about doing high heat cooking with olive oil, but you're cooking with olive oil, but you're cooking with olive oil, but you're saying from the research that you've saying from the research that you've saying from the research that you've seen, that's not really something that seen, that's not really something that seen, that's not really something that we should be worried about. we should be worried about. we should be worried about. >> Yes. I think for all kinds of normal >> Yes. I think for all kinds of normal >> Yes. I think for all kinds of normal home cooking that it's so high in home cooking that it's so high in home cooking that it's so high in polyphenols, it stabilizes the oil and polyphenols, it stabilizes the oil and polyphenols, it stabilizes the oil and it actually it helps absorb some of the it actually it helps absorb some of the it actually it helps absorb some of the the nutrients in our food. Like olive the nutrients in our food. Like olive the nutrients in our food. Like olive oil on tomatoes is a great combination oil on tomatoes is a great combination oil on tomatoes is a great combination for summer. I love the seasonality of for summer. I love the seasonality of for summer. I love the seasonality of food and we know that the olive olive food and we know that the olive olive food and we know that the olive olive oil will help with the absorption of oil will help with the absorption of oil will help with the absorption of things like lyen in the tomatoes and we things like lyen in the tomatoes and we things like lyen in the tomatoes and we know that that's really important for know that that's really important for know that that's really important for your skin defense against UV and summer. your skin defense against UV and summer. your skin defense against UV and summer. So there a great reason to enjoy these So there a great reason to enjoy these So there a great reason to enjoy these foods in season and take them with olive foods in season and take them with olive foods in season and take them with olive oil. oil. oil. >> Apart from olive oil, >> Apart from olive oil, >> Apart from olive oil, >> um for people who want some more >> um for people who want some more >> um for people who want some more specifics, you you have mentioned that specifics, you you have mentioned that specifics, you you have mentioned that the Mediterranean pattern is one the Mediterranean pattern is one the Mediterranean pattern is one pattern. Of course, it's not the only pattern. Of course, it's not the only pattern. Of course, it's not the only pattern. pattern. pattern. >> What are the principles you you look to >> What are the principles you you look to >> What are the principles you you look to follow or or you advise people if follow or or you advise people if follow or or you advise people if they're saying, "Hey, Jenna, how can I they're saying, "Hey, Jenna, how can I they're saying, "Hey, Jenna, how can I eat in a way that supports my immune eat in a way that supports my immune eat in a way that supports my immune system health?" Mhm. system health?" Mhm. system health?" Mhm. >> Yes. Olive oil. But are there some more >> Yes. Olive oil. But are there some more >> Yes. Olive oil. But are there some more broad principles that you advise people broad principles that you advise people broad principles that you advise people try and follow? try and follow? try and follow? >> Yeah, I think just um you don't want to >> Yeah, I think just um you don't want to >> Yeah, I think just um you don't want to be deficient in anything. I mean, we be deficient in anything. I mean, we be deficient in anything. I mean, we hear about certain nutrients being hear about certain nutrients being hear about certain nutrients being really important for the immune system. really important for the immune system. really important for the immune system. So, vitamin C, zinc, vitamin D, but So, vitamin C, zinc, vitamin D, but So, vitamin C, zinc, vitamin D, but really you could argue that all the really you could argue that all the really you could argue that all the essential vitamins and minerals are essential vitamins and minerals are essential vitamins and minerals are important in having a healthy immune important in having a healthy immune important in having a healthy immune response. There was a really interesting response. There was a really interesting response. There was a really interesting study I think just came out this week of study I think just came out this week of study I think just came out this week of part of the Cosmos trials where the the part of the Cosmos trials where the the part of the Cosmos trials where the the headlines in the news was um uh headlines in the news was um uh headlines in the news was um uh multivitamin pill increases lifespan or multivitamin pill increases lifespan or multivitamin pill increases lifespan or something. And when you actually look at something. And when you actually look at something. And when you actually look at the study, it found that when they did the study, it found that when they did the study, it found that when they did this m multivitamin and mineral this m multivitamin and mineral this m multivitamin and mineral intervention, it was one of the biggest intervention, it was one of the biggest intervention, it was one of the biggest nutrition studies ever over two years, nutrition studies ever over two years, nutrition studies ever over two years, they got an improvement in biological they got an improvement in biological they got an improvement in biological age. But it was because these people age. But it was because these people age. But it was because these people were falling behind. they had shortfalls were falling behind. they had shortfalls were falling behind. they had shortfalls in key nutrients. So, you're actually in key nutrients. So, you're actually in key nutrients. So, you're actually just recovering the shortfall by giving just recovering the shortfall by giving just recovering the shortfall by giving them a vitamin and mineral capsule. It's them a vitamin and mineral capsule. It's them a vitamin and mineral capsule. It's not that the vitamin mineral capsule is not that the vitamin mineral capsule is not that the vitamin mineral capsule is suddenly giving them a longevity suddenly giving them a longevity suddenly giving them a longevity advantage. So, I think making sure advantage. So, I think making sure advantage. So, I think making sure you're covering all those nutrient bases you're covering all those nutrient bases you're covering all those nutrient bases across the life course. And obviously, across the life course. And obviously, across the life course. And obviously, that can be hard in modern worlds. that can be hard in modern worlds. that can be hard in modern worlds. >> Well, I think that's the key point, >> Well, I think that's the key point, >> Well, I think that's the key point, isn't it? That's a So, I saw that study isn't it? That's a So, I saw that study isn't it? That's a So, I saw that study as well. And I think it's really interesting because I think it's really interesting because then the question becomes then the question becomes then the question becomes how much of the population how much of the population how much of the population >> are being replete in vitamins and >> are being replete in vitamins and >> are being replete in vitamins and nutrients nutrients nutrients >> and certainly from my clinical >> and certainly from my clinical >> and certainly from my clinical experience I would say quite a lot of experience I would say quite a lot of experience I would say quite a lot of people are not getting in people are not getting in people are not getting in >> the right amount of nutrients for a >> the right amount of nutrients for a >> the right amount of nutrients for a variety of reasons. Yes, it can be cost. variety of reasons. Yes, it can be cost. variety of reasons. Yes, it can be cost. It can also be that they're super busy It can also be that they're super busy It can also be that they're super busy and time pressure. So they don't have and time pressure. So they don't have and time pressure. So they don't have time to make these homecooked meals. So time to make these homecooked meals. So time to make these homecooked meals. So they are relying on takeaways and they are relying on takeaways and they are relying on takeaways and deliveroos. deliveroos. deliveroos. >> Chronic stress that we've spent a lot of >> Chronic stress that we've spent a lot of >> Chronic stress that we've spent a lot of time talking about a lot of people don't time talking about a lot of people don't time talking about a lot of people don't appreciate that appreciate that appreciate that >> chronic stress affects the way your >> chronic stress affects the way your >> chronic stress affects the way your digestive system digestive system digestive system >> functions, right? So even if you are >> functions, right? So even if you are >> functions, right? So even if you are eating the right food, if you're eating the right food, if you're eating the right food, if you're constantly stressed, constantly stressed, constantly stressed, >> you ain't absorbing the nutrients as >> you ain't absorbing the nutrients as >> you ain't absorbing the nutrients as well. And then of course you've got well. And then of course you've got well. And then of course you've got >> soil quality >> soil quality >> soil quality >> and how we know compared to 50 years ago >> and how we know compared to 50 years ago >> and how we know compared to 50 years ago soil quality is different. So soil quality is different. So soil quality is different. So >> maybe in broccoli for example we don't >> maybe in broccoli for example we don't >> maybe in broccoli for example we don't have the same level of nutrients as we have the same level of nutrients as we have the same level of nutrients as we had 50 years ago. had 50 years ago. had 50 years ago. >> So I think there's scientific research >> So I think there's scientific research >> So I think there's scientific research which helps inform us and then there's which helps inform us and then there's which helps inform us and then there's the actual the actual the actual >> practical applications of it. You know >> practical applications of it. You know >> practical applications of it. You know who are you? Are you someone who is low who are you? Are you someone who is low who are you? Are you someone who is low stress, who eats really good food three stress, who eats really good food three stress, who eats really good food three times a day and is nutrient replete, times a day and is nutrient replete, times a day and is nutrient replete, >> or are you someone who perhaps is trying >> or are you someone who perhaps is trying >> or are you someone who perhaps is trying your best in very challenging your best in very challenging your best in very challenging situations, situations, situations, >> but is a bit deficient and therefore >> but is a bit deficient and therefore >> but is a bit deficient and therefore maybe might benefit from a vultimist and maybe might benefit from a vultimist and maybe might benefit from a vultimist and a mineral. Do you know what I mean? a mineral. Do you know what I mean? a mineral. Do you know what I mean? >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> I think that that nuance >> I think that that nuance >> I think that that nuance >> I think often gets lost online where >> I think often gets lost online where >> I think often gets lost online where people say it's either good or it's bad. people say it's either good or it's bad. people say it's either good or it's bad. It's like, well, kind of depends in what It's like, well, kind of depends in what It's like, well, kind of depends in what context. I think that it depends is my context. I think that it depends is my context. I think that it depends is my most common answer to things when people most common answer to things when people most common answer to things when people ask me because I hate being dogmatic. ask me because I hate being dogmatic. ask me because I hate being dogmatic. Yes or no? Like there's definitely a Yes or no? Like there's definitely a Yes or no? Like there's definitely a place where we could say in the modern place where we could say in the modern place where we could say in the modern diet and when you look at population diet and when you look at population diet and when you look at population studies okay you're like okay vitamin D studies okay you're like okay vitamin D studies okay you're like okay vitamin D quite likely to be low magnesium um um quite likely to be low magnesium um um quite likely to be low magnesium um um omega-3s always is something that comes omega-3s always is something that comes omega-3s always is something that comes back particularly in the UK I think the back particularly in the UK I think the back particularly in the UK I think the mean is like pretty much close to zero mean is like pretty much close to zero mean is like pretty much close to zero for for having enough omega-3s in our for for having enough omega-3s in our for for having enough omega-3s in our diet. And so you're like, well, there's diet. And so you're like, well, there's diet. And so you're like, well, there's a case for supplementing with these a case for supplementing with these a case for supplementing with these because there's a large population of because there's a large population of because there's a large population of people who are probably insufficient in people who are probably insufficient in people who are probably insufficient in them. Um, and so I guess the sort of them. Um, and so I guess the sort of them. Um, and so I guess the sort of personal optimal health versus that sort personal optimal health versus that sort personal optimal health versus that sort of broad public health message um that of broad public health message um that of broad public health message um that you know, it makes it really confusing you know, it makes it really confusing you know, it makes it really confusing for people and there's so many different for people and there's so many different for people and there's so many different um supplements out there that people um supplements out there that people um supplements out there that people often get confused and don't know where often get confused and don't know where often get confused and don't know where to start. But I think thinking about to start. But I think thinking about to start. But I think thinking about those real foundational nutrients, the those real foundational nutrients, the those real foundational nutrients, the ones where there is a high chance of ones where there is a high chance of ones where there is a high chance of being deficient, I think those are a being deficient, I think those are a being deficient, I think those are a really good place to start. Are you a really good place to start. Are you a really good place to start. Are you a fan of increasing plant diversity as a fan of increasing plant diversity as a fan of increasing plant diversity as a way of nourishing a healthy gut way of nourishing a healthy gut way of nourishing a healthy gut microbiome? microbiome? microbiome? >> Yeah, definitely. And I think when we >> Yeah, definitely. And I think when we >> Yeah, definitely. And I think when we speak about plants, we need to make sure speak about plants, we need to make sure speak about plants, we need to make sure we're not just limited to fruit and we're not just limited to fruit and we're not just limited to fruit and vegetables, but like nuts and seeds and vegetables, but like nuts and seeds and vegetables, but like nuts and seeds and whole grains and beans, pulses, legumes. whole grains and beans, pulses, legumes. whole grains and beans, pulses, legumes. But I do, you know, I I often have these But I do, you know, I I often have these But I do, you know, I I often have these conversations and I wrote about it in conversations and I wrote about it in conversations and I wrote about it in the book where I get people saying, "Oh, the book where I get people saying, "Oh, the book where I get people saying, "Oh, I've just I've changed my diet. I eat so I've just I've changed my diet. I eat so I've just I've changed my diet. I eat so healthy now, but I still have all this healthy now, but I still have all this healthy now, but I still have all this like digestive feedback and issues and like digestive feedback and issues and like digestive feedback and issues and stuff." And I I kind of think, well, stuff." And I I kind of think, well, stuff." And I I kind of think, well, you've got this whole ecosystem in your you've got this whole ecosystem in your you've got this whole ecosystem in your gut that you've been living with since gut that you've been living with since gut that you've been living with since you were a child and it's been changing you were a child and it's been changing you were a child and it's been changing across your life, course, based on what across your life, course, based on what across your life, course, based on what you're doing. if you had, you know, you're doing. if you had, you know, you're doing. if you had, you know, certain medications or periods of of, certain medications or periods of of, certain medications or periods of of, you know, gastrointestinal infection or you know, gastrointestinal infection or you know, gastrointestinal infection or different hits to that ecosystem and different hits to that ecosystem and different hits to that ecosystem and then suddenly you shove all this plant then suddenly you shove all this plant then suddenly you shove all this plant fiber on it and it's like, wa, I don't fiber on it and it's like, wa, I don't fiber on it and it's like, wa, I don't know what to do with this and your your know what to do with this and your your know what to do with this and your your IBS is worse than ever, but you're like, IBS is worse than ever, but you're like, IBS is worse than ever, but you're like, but I'm eating healthier than ever. And but I'm eating healthier than ever. And but I'm eating healthier than ever. And so I think we do need to encourage so I think we do need to encourage so I think we do need to encourage people to eat more plant diversity, but people to eat more plant diversity, but people to eat more plant diversity, but people need to find where their starting people need to find where their starting people need to find where their starting point is and build up slowly because if point is and build up slowly because if point is and build up slowly because if you go from like eating very little you go from like eating very little you go from like eating very little fiber and then suddenly eating a lot of fiber and then suddenly eating a lot of fiber and then suddenly eating a lot of fiber, your body's going to tell you and fiber, your body's going to tell you and fiber, your body's going to tell you and you're probably going to be like, why am you're probably going to be like, why am you're probably going to be like, why am I getting these symptoms that doesn't I getting these symptoms that doesn't I getting these symptoms that doesn't feel good and I'm doing the right thing? feel good and I'm doing the right thing? feel good and I'm doing the right thing? So I think it's about thinking of it as So I think it's about thinking of it as So I think it's about thinking of it as a garden, as an ecosystem. You don't a garden, as an ecosystem. You don't a garden, as an ecosystem. You don't just dump a load of seeds and expect it just dump a load of seeds and expect it just dump a load of seeds and expect it all to grow. You've got to sort of coax all to grow. You've got to sort of coax all to grow. You've got to sort of coax it delicately. Um, and if your body is it delicately. Um, and if your body is it delicately. Um, and if your body is rejecting a certain plant food and the rejecting a certain plant food and the rejecting a certain plant food and the fiber is really irritating, instead of fiber is really irritating, instead of fiber is really irritating, instead of deciding that food is bad, it's like, deciding that food is bad, it's like, deciding that food is bad, it's like, well, why is your body not able to well, why is your body not able to well, why is your body not able to tolerate it? Why have you lost tolerate it? Why have you lost tolerate it? Why have you lost tolerance? And how can you slowly get tolerance? And how can you slowly get tolerance? And how can you slowly get that back? And I think stress is a huge that back? And I think stress is a huge that back? And I think stress is a huge part of it. Even the clues in the name, part of it. Even the clues in the name, part of it. Even the clues in the name, we talk about rest and digest when we we talk about rest and digest when we we talk about rest and digest when we talk about the parasympathetic, don't talk about the parasympathetic, don't talk about the parasympathetic, don't we? And it's like, well, if I'm sort of we? And it's like, well, if I'm sort of we? And it's like, well, if I'm sort of rushing stuffing food in my mouth cuz rushing stuffing food in my mouth cuz rushing stuffing food in my mouth cuz I'm between meetings and doing stuff I'm between meetings and doing stuff I'm between meetings and doing stuff with the kids and trying to juggle 50 with the kids and trying to juggle 50 with the kids and trying to juggle 50 things, which happens to me regularly, things, which happens to me regularly, things, which happens to me regularly, there's no way I'm properly in a way to there's no way I'm properly in a way to there's no way I'm properly in a way to receive that food and digest it receive that food and digest it receive that food and digest it properly. I'm barely chewing it, you properly. I'm barely chewing it, you properly. I'm barely chewing it, you know? So, how is it's going to land in know? So, how is it's going to land in know? So, how is it's going to land in my stomach and it hasn't had the benefit my stomach and it hasn't had the benefit my stomach and it hasn't had the benefit of me breaking it up with my um chewing of me breaking it up with my um chewing of me breaking it up with my um chewing and all of the digestive enzymes in my and all of the digestive enzymes in my and all of the digestive enzymes in my saliva, you know, and then not to saliva, you know, and then not to saliva, you know, and then not to mention all that nervous tissue and the mention all that nervous tissue and the mention all that nervous tissue and the the the gut that forms the gut brain the the gut that forms the gut brain the the gut that forms the gut brain access. Just being like, "Wait a minute, access. Just being like, "Wait a minute, access. Just being like, "Wait a minute, I don't know what we're eating." One I don't know what we're eating." One I don't know what we're eating." One thing I find quite useful is to eat at thing I find quite useful is to eat at thing I find quite useful is to eat at the same time every day if possible the same time every day if possible the same time every day if possible because we have this like migrating because we have this like migrating because we have this like migrating motor complex which sort of clears out motor complex which sort of clears out motor complex which sort of clears out the gut in between meals and then you the gut in between meals and then you the gut in between meals and then you get like Pavlov's dogs. It's like oh I get like Pavlov's dogs. It's like oh I get like Pavlov's dogs. It's like oh I always eat lunch at 1. You can almost always eat lunch at 1. You can almost always eat lunch at 1. You can almost feel the digestive juices turning on feel the digestive juices turning on feel the digestive juices turning on because your body's always preserving because your body's always preserving because your body's always preserving energy. It's not going to be ready to energy. It's not going to be ready to energy. It's not going to be ready to digest food 24/7 because that wouldn't digest food 24/7 because that wouldn't digest food 24/7 because that wouldn't be efficient. So if I eat at the same be efficient. So if I eat at the same be efficient. So if I eat at the same time I'm like all right yeah I'm ready time I'm like all right yeah I'm ready time I'm like all right yeah I'm ready to digest this now. Um but you know then to digest this now. Um but you know then to digest this now. Um but you know then you you layer that onto people's busy you you layer that onto people's busy you you layer that onto people's busy lives, working shifts in a hospital or lives, working shifts in a hospital or lives, working shifts in a hospital or you know all the different things that you know all the different things that you know all the different things that people juggle and then you realize that people juggle and then you realize that people juggle and then you realize that the way our lives are created makes even the way our lives are created makes even the way our lives are created makes even these simple interventions like eating these simple interventions like eating these simple interventions like eating at the same time can be incredibly hard at the same time can be incredibly hard at the same time can be incredibly hard for people. for people. for people. >> Yeah. One of my favorite sections in the >> Yeah. One of my favorite sections in the >> Yeah. One of my favorite sections in the book was the section on midlife gut book was the section on midlife gut book was the section on midlife gut health. health. health. And what was really interesting about it And what was really interesting about it And what was really interesting about it and very thoughtprovoking was this idea and very thoughtprovoking was this idea and very thoughtprovoking was this idea that midlife gut health serves as both a that midlife gut health serves as both a that midlife gut health serves as both a mirror for our past mirror for our past mirror for our past >> and a compass for our future. I've never >> and a compass for our future. I've never >> and a compass for our future. I've never heard it put like that before. heard it put like that before. heard it put like that before. >> Can you talk a little bit about midlife >> Can you talk a little bit about midlife >> Can you talk a little bit about midlife guts health? Why it's so important? Why guts health? Why it's so important? Why guts health? Why it's so important? Why you wrote those beautiful words? you wrote those beautiful words? you wrote those beautiful words? >> And also how it interacts with our >> And also how it interacts with our >> And also how it interacts with our immune system. immune system. immune system. >> Yeah. I mean I think midlife in general >> Yeah. I mean I think midlife in general >> Yeah. I mean I think midlife in general is a kind of watershed moment and is a kind of watershed moment and is a kind of watershed moment and perhaps we can linger on that for a bit perhaps we can linger on that for a bit perhaps we can linger on that for a bit but the gut is hugely important to the but the gut is hugely important to the but the gut is hugely important to the immune system. We mentioned in the immune system. We mentioned in the immune system. We mentioned in the beginning of our conversation about the beginning of our conversation about the beginning of our conversation about the early life and how the gut starts to early life and how the gut starts to early life and how the gut starts to house this ecosystem that then trains house this ecosystem that then trains house this ecosystem that then trains and educates the immune system across and educates the immune system across and educates the immune system across the life course. So that relationship's the life course. So that relationship's the life course. So that relationship's still going on, but I feel by midlife still going on, but I feel by midlife still going on, but I feel by midlife most of us have had several hits to our most of us have had several hits to our most of us have had several hits to our gut health. Whether that be, you know, gut health. Whether that be, you know, gut health. Whether that be, you know, multiple rounds of antibiotics, we might multiple rounds of antibiotics, we might multiple rounds of antibiotics, we might be on PPIs because that's one of the be on PPIs because that's one of the be on PPIs because that's one of the most prescribed drugs and we now know most prescribed drugs and we now know most prescribed drugs and we now know they're significant and how they impact they're significant and how they impact they're significant and how they impact the gut microbiome. Um, we probably had the gut microbiome. Um, we probably had the gut microbiome. Um, we probably had periods of bad diet. you know, I know periods of bad diet. you know, I know periods of bad diet. you know, I know when I was a student, uh, I was not when I was a student, uh, I was not when I was a student, uh, I was not eating the best or drinking too much, eating the best or drinking too much, eating the best or drinking too much, which we know is, um, not, you know, a which we know is, um, not, you know, a which we know is, um, not, you know, a great favorable, um, environment for the great favorable, um, environment for the great favorable, um, environment for the gut microbes. So, there's all these kind gut microbes. So, there's all these kind gut microbes. So, there's all these kind of hits and it's often when people start of hits and it's often when people start of hits and it's often when people start to think, well, I will start to take to think, well, I will start to take to think, well, I will start to take care of myself now and start eating care of myself now and start eating care of myself now and start eating better, and their gut kind of rejects better, and their gut kind of rejects better, and their gut kind of rejects it. Um, and then they're pulling in all it. Um, and then they're pulling in all it. Um, and then they're pulling in all the fermented foods because they've the fermented foods because they've the fermented foods because they've heard that those are good, too. And kind heard that those are good, too. And kind heard that those are good, too. And kind of just overwhelming the gut. Um, and of just overwhelming the gut. Um, and of just overwhelming the gut. Um, and the gut is not just about the microbes the gut is not just about the microbes the gut is not just about the microbes that are in it. They're obviously that are in it. They're obviously that are in it. They're obviously important. They are breaking down a lot important. They are breaking down a lot important. They are breaking down a lot of our foods that as humans we cannot of our foods that as humans we cannot of our foods that as humans we cannot digest. They have the enzymes to break digest. They have the enzymes to break digest. They have the enzymes to break them down. We get the benefit of that them down. We get the benefit of that them down. We get the benefit of that and absorbing all those breakdown and absorbing all those breakdown and absorbing all those breakdown metabolites um that are then absorbed metabolites um that are then absorbed metabolites um that are then absorbed into our bloodstream and have wonderful into our bloodstream and have wonderful into our bloodstream and have wonderful effects. Many of them are effects. Many of them are effects. Many of them are anti-inflammatory things like short- anti-inflammatory things like short- anti-inflammatory things like short- chain fatty acids which our immune cells chain fatty acids which our immune cells chain fatty acids which our immune cells love. they help the immune system love. they help the immune system love. they help the immune system regulate. Um, but then again, it also is regulate. Um, but then again, it also is regulate. Um, but then again, it also is about the gut barrier health. So, the about the gut barrier health. So, the about the gut barrier health. So, the gut is this tube that goes from our gut is this tube that goes from our gut is this tube that goes from our mouth all the way to the other end. So, mouth all the way to the other end. So, mouth all the way to the other end. So, it's very fragile. It's one cell thick it's very fragile. It's one cell thick it's very fragile. It's one cell thick and that's deliberate because its main and that's deliberate because its main and that's deliberate because its main function is to absorb nutrients. function is to absorb nutrients. function is to absorb nutrients. >> But the barrier therefore has to be >> But the barrier therefore has to be >> But the barrier therefore has to be somewhat permeable but also resilient somewhat permeable but also resilient somewhat permeable but also resilient enough to keep stuff out that we don't enough to keep stuff out that we don't enough to keep stuff out that we don't want to go into the body. And with all want to go into the body. And with all want to go into the body. And with all these hits and knocks to the microbiome, these hits and knocks to the microbiome, these hits and knocks to the microbiome, then the microbiome is not able to keep then the microbiome is not able to keep then the microbiome is not able to keep the barrier as healthy as we'd like the barrier as healthy as we'd like the barrier as healthy as we'd like because the microbiome digesting our because the microbiome digesting our because the microbiome digesting our food produces these metabolites that food produces these metabolites that food produces these metabolites that help keep that barrier intact. And that help keep that barrier intact. And that help keep that barrier intact. And that is going to raise the unwanted is going to raise the unwanted is going to raise the unwanted inflammation. Because as soon as you inflammation. Because as soon as you inflammation. Because as soon as you have stuff in the gut going through the have stuff in the gut going through the have stuff in the gut going through the gut wall that shouldn't, your immune gut wall that shouldn't, your immune gut wall that shouldn't, your immune system is on the other side going, system is on the other side going, system is on the other side going, "Right, red alert. We got foreign "Right, red alert. We got foreign "Right, red alert. We got foreign material here we don't want. Let's turn material here we don't want. Let's turn material here we don't want. Let's turn on inflammation because that's our on inflammation because that's our on inflammation because that's our weapon." Um, and that is systemic. It's weapon." Um, and that is systemic. It's weapon." Um, and that is systemic. It's going through your your whole going through your your whole going through your your whole bloodstream. So, it can really be the bloodstream. So, it can really be the bloodstream. So, it can really be the source of of inflammation. And I think source of of inflammation. And I think source of of inflammation. And I think at 40, you know, it's this kind of at 40, you know, it's this kind of at 40, you know, it's this kind of watershed moment if we take it as being watershed moment if we take it as being watershed moment if we take it as being the halfway point in our life. the halfway point in our life. the halfway point in our life. >> And really, evolution sort of designed >> And really, evolution sort of designed >> And really, evolution sort of designed us to not live much longer. Like us to not live much longer. Like us to not live much longer. Like evolution just wants us to pass on our evolution just wants us to pass on our evolution just wants us to pass on our genes and keep the human race going. Um, genes and keep the human race going. Um, genes and keep the human race going. Um, and that's whether you as an individual and that's whether you as an individual and that's whether you as an individual want to have children or not. It's kind want to have children or not. It's kind want to have children or not. It's kind of like that's what you were optimized of like that's what you were optimized of like that's what you were optimized for. And we have this um thing called for. And we have this um thing called for. And we have this um thing called antagonistic pleotropy which means that antagonistic pleotropy which means that antagonistic pleotropy which means that the genes that optimize the first half the genes that optimize the first half the genes that optimize the first half of your life and allow you to pass on of your life and allow you to pass on of your life and allow you to pass on your DNA can actually work against you your DNA can actually work against you your DNA can actually work against you in the second half of your life. So in in the second half of your life. So in in the second half of your life. So in the first half of your life there's a the first half of your life there's a the first half of your life there's a lot of these antagonistic pleotropy lot of these antagonistic pleotropy lot of these antagonistic pleotropy genes are in the immune system and a genes are in the immune system and a genes are in the immune system and a child to survive you know most most child to survive you know most most child to survive you know most most children would die in early life before children would die in early life before children would die in early life before we have all the medical care that we we have all the medical care that we we have all the medical care that we have today. So to keep them alive they have today. So to keep them alive they have today. So to keep them alive they need a really fierce immune response to need a really fierce immune response to need a really fierce immune response to all the different infections as they're all the different infections as they're all the different infections as they're developing their their um immunity uh developing their their um immunity uh developing their their um immunity uh through the early years. But then the through the early years. But then the through the early years. But then the genes that allow them to do that genes that allow them to do that genes that allow them to do that actually in your 40s, 50s, 60s mean that actually in your 40s, 50s, 60s mean that actually in your 40s, 50s, 60s mean that you get much more easily triggered and you get much more easily triggered and you get much more easily triggered and have much more unwanted inflammation in have much more unwanted inflammation in have much more unwanted inflammation in the second half of life which can the second half of life which can the second half of life which can accelerate your aging. So that's why for accelerate your aging. So that's why for accelerate your aging. So that's why for me 40 is that time and I always think in me 40 is that time and I always think in me 40 is that time and I always think in terms of science but also in how we feel terms of science but also in how we feel terms of science but also in how we feel people start to feel like oh I don't people start to feel like oh I don't people start to feel like oh I don't don't have the energy I used to have. I don't have the energy I used to have. I don't have the energy I used to have. I have more aches and pains than I used to have more aches and pains than I used to have more aches and pains than I used to have. I don't recover like I used to. have. I don't recover like I used to. have. I don't recover like I used to. can't quite drink alcohol like I used can't quite drink alcohol like I used can't quite drink alcohol like I used to. To me, it's a wakeup call to be to. To me, it's a wakeup call to be to. To me, it's a wakeup call to be like, listen to all that information and like, listen to all that information and like, listen to all that information and realize your biology is now working realize your biology is now working realize your biology is now working against you from this point forward. So, against you from this point forward. So, against you from this point forward. So, you probably have to work harder with you probably have to work harder with you probably have to work harder with the anti-inflammatory inputs to enjoy the anti-inflammatory inputs to enjoy the anti-inflammatory inputs to enjoy that second half of your life and not that second half of your life and not that second half of your life and not just kind of surrender to this is aging. just kind of surrender to this is aging. just kind of surrender to this is aging. >> Yeah, I think there's going to be many >> Yeah, I think there's going to be many >> Yeah, I think there's going to be many people listening, Jenna, who totally people listening, Jenna, who totally people listening, Jenna, who totally resonate with that. And I think the resonate with that. And I think the resonate with that. And I think the point you're trying to make, I think, is point you're trying to make, I think, is point you're trying to make, I think, is that that that you might have got away with certain you might have got away with certain you might have got away with certain things in your 20s, things in your 20s, things in your 20s, >> and maybe your 30s, >> and maybe your 30s, >> and maybe your 30s, >> but you're probably not going to be >> but you're probably not going to be >> but you're probably not going to be getting away with them in your 40s. So, getting away with them in your 40s. So, getting away with them in your 40s. So, you're almost making the case that you're almost making the case that you're almost making the case that actually this stuff may not be actually actually this stuff may not be actually actually this stuff may not be actually starting in your 40s. your lifestyle. starting in your 40s. your lifestyle. starting in your 40s. your lifestyle. It may have been driving this It may have been driving this It may have been driving this possibility in your symptoms for years, possibility in your symptoms for years, possibility in your symptoms for years, but you got away with it because of but you got away with it because of but you got away with it because of youth. youth. youth. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I know in the book you you split up the >> I know in the book you you split up the >> I know in the book you you split up the human life into four seasons. human life into four seasons. human life into four seasons. >> But you could also, I guess, look at it >> But you could also, I guess, look at it >> But you could also, I guess, look at it in two seasons, couldn't you? You could in two seasons, couldn't you? You could in two seasons, couldn't you? You could either either either >> you could either go preport and post 40. >> you could either go preport and post 40. >> you could either go preport and post 40. >> Pre40, you might get away with stuff. >> Pre40, you might get away with stuff. >> Pre40, you might get away with stuff. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Post 40, you're probably not. We even >> Post 40, you're probably not. We even >> Post 40, you're probably not. We even know from the you know a lot of uh know from the you know a lot of uh know from the you know a lot of uh doctors who doctors who doctors who see women with menopausal symptoms see women with menopausal symptoms see women with menopausal symptoms >> they will say that actually >> they will say that actually >> they will say that actually if used in the right way if used in the right way if used in the right way >> this can be the best wakeup call you >> this can be the best wakeup call you >> this can be the best wakeup call you ever get because if you can now start to ever get because if you can now start to ever get because if you can now start to live a bit more in harmony with your live a bit more in harmony with your live a bit more in harmony with your rhythms rhythms rhythms >> yes >> yes >> yes >> and the rest of your life and as you >> and the rest of your life and as you >> and the rest of your life and as you would say in alignment would say in alignment would say in alignment >> you might I'm not saying you you won't >> you might I'm not saying you you won't >> you might I'm not saying you you won't need hormones you might still do but A need hormones you might still do but A need hormones you might still do but A lot of the time women don't. lot of the time women don't. lot of the time women don't. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I've seen that over and over again. A >> I've seen that over and over again. A >> I've seen that over and over again. A lot of the time if you can balance what lot of the time if you can balance what lot of the time if you can balance what I call the four pillars, food, movement, I call the four pillars, food, movement, I call the four pillars, food, movement, >> sleep, and in particularly stress. >> sleep, and in particularly stress. >> sleep, and in particularly stress. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I have seen women's menopausal symptoms >> I have seen women's menopausal symptoms >> I have seen women's menopausal symptoms almost disappear. almost disappear. almost disappear. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Because the whole system is a lot more >> Because the whole system is a lot more >> Because the whole system is a lot more balanced. balanced. balanced. >> Yeah. And this is, you know, why I think >> Yeah. And this is, you know, why I think >> Yeah. And this is, you know, why I think of time as as as circular because, you of time as as as circular because, you of time as as as circular because, you know, my kids need to develop really know, my kids need to develop really know, my kids need to develop really good habits now. They have to have a good habits now. They have to have a good habits now. They have to have a good idea in their mind of what a good idea in their mind of what a good idea in their mind of what a healthy meal is and isn't, what foods healthy meal is and isn't, what foods healthy meal is and isn't, what foods should be consumed regularly and what should be consumed regularly and what should be consumed regularly and what ones should be less regular because if ones should be less regular because if ones should be less regular because if they don't, like when they get to my they don't, like when they get to my they don't, like when they get to my age, it's a lot harder to change. Yeah. age, it's a lot harder to change. Yeah. age, it's a lot harder to change. Yeah. >> And my thinking when I was writing the >> And my thinking when I was writing the >> And my thinking when I was writing the book is that my kids are on a different book is that my kids are on a different book is that my kids are on a different trajectory to what I was on just by trajectory to what I was on just by trajectory to what I was on just by virtue of how the world has changed. virtue of how the world has changed. virtue of how the world has changed. >> A worse trajectory >> A worse trajectory >> A worse trajectory >> potentially. Yes. And I think we're >> potentially. Yes. And I think we're >> potentially. Yes. And I think we're starting to get hints of that and the starting to get hints of that and the starting to get hints of that and the data and even things like the health data and even things like the health data and even things like the health span where current health span in the UK span where current health span in the UK span where current health span in the UK is around 60 and lifespan's around 80. is around 60 and lifespan's around 80. is around 60 and lifespan's around 80. That 20 year delta is actually starting That 20 year delta is actually starting That 20 year delta is actually starting to get bigger. So while we're able to to get bigger. So while we're able to to get bigger. So while we're able to keep people alive, we have amazing keep people alive, we have amazing keep people alive, we have amazing medical technology. we're not medical technology. we're not medical technology. we're not necessarily giving them a good quality necessarily giving them a good quality necessarily giving them a good quality of life and the health span isn't of life and the health span isn't of life and the health span isn't improving. And so almost that has to improving. And so almost that has to improving. And so almost that has to happen first before we get to the let's happen first before we get to the let's happen first before we get to the let's live to being 120. Um and so I think live to being 120. Um and so I think live to being 120. Um and so I think that all starts in childhood with kids, that all starts in childhood with kids, that all starts in childhood with kids, you know, and things like them putting you know, and things like them putting you know, and things like them putting down bone density. That's where your down bone density. That's where your down bone density. That's where your immune cells are made and the bone immune cells are made and the bone immune cells are made and the bone marrow. And we know that happens in marrow. And we know that happens in marrow. And we know that happens in early life through play, jumping around, early life through play, jumping around, early life through play, jumping around, you know, impact on the bones. Whereas you know, impact on the bones. Whereas you know, impact on the bones. Whereas if kids are more sedentary now that's if kids are more sedentary now that's if kids are more sedentary now that's affecting it that even things like affecting it that even things like affecting it that even things like muscle mass we hear so much about muscle mass we hear so much about muscle mass we hear so much about midlife women and as you said about midlife women and as you said about midlife women and as you said about menopause like muscle mass is really menopause like muscle mass is really menopause like muscle mass is really really important protection from really important protection from really important protection from osteoporosis but potentially that starts osteoporosis but potentially that starts osteoporosis but potentially that starts in childhood and so I I don't want to in childhood and so I I don't want to in childhood and so I I don't want to have a negative message that people are have a negative message that people are have a negative message that people are like well it's too late for me but I like well it's too late for me but I like well it's too late for me but I think we have to realize that we're all think we have to realize that we're all think we have to realize that we're all connected we need to take the wisdom connected we need to take the wisdom connected we need to take the wisdom we've learned now and feed it into the we've learned now and feed it into the we've learned now and feed it into the younger generations and not just sort of younger generations and not just sort of younger generations and not just sort of like leave them to figure it out. We're like leave them to figure it out. We're like leave them to figure it out. We're like, "No, no, look. This has to to be a like, "No, no, look. This has to to be a like, "No, no, look. This has to to be a circular thing." circular thing." circular thing." >> Yeah. It it was so profound what you >> Yeah. It it was so profound what you >> Yeah. It it was so profound what you just said. This idea that actually by telling the truth, we're going to by telling the truth, we're going to make people feel bad and disempowered is make people feel bad and disempowered is make people feel bad and disempowered is one I just don't buy. We should be one I just don't buy. We should be one I just don't buy. We should be telling the truth to people, right? It telling the truth to people, right? It telling the truth to people, right? It may be that someone is listening to this may be that someone is listening to this may be that someone is listening to this in their 40s in their 40s in their 40s >> and actually for whatever reason through >> and actually for whatever reason through >> and actually for whatever reason through no fault of their own they didn't get no fault of their own they didn't get no fault of their own they didn't get the right inputs when they were a the right inputs when they were a the right inputs when they were a teenager. teenager. teenager. >> Maybe their parents didn't know. Maybe >> Maybe their parents didn't know. Maybe >> Maybe their parents didn't know. Maybe they had trauma. Maybe they didn't they had trauma. Maybe they didn't they had trauma. Maybe they didn't >> do enough stuff that was going to >> do enough stuff that was going to >> do enough stuff that was going to >> maximize their ceiling of bone density. >> maximize their ceiling of bone density. >> maximize their ceiling of bone density. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And of course it would have been better >> And of course it would have been better >> And of course it would have been better had that not happened. had that not happened. had that not happened. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But I think by saying that it does two >> But I think by saying that it does two >> But I think by saying that it does two things. Number one, it empowers you to things. Number one, it empowers you to things. Number one, it empowers you to go, okay, well, maybe I didn't have the go, okay, well, maybe I didn't have the go, okay, well, maybe I didn't have the best start in life, best start in life, best start in life, >> but let me max what I can do now to make >> but let me max what I can do now to make >> but let me max what I can do now to make the most of what I have. the most of what I have. the most of what I have. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> The second point is that person now >> The second point is that person now >> The second point is that person now could be a parent themselves. could be a parent themselves. could be a parent themselves. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I think I hope most parents, certainly >> I think I hope most parents, certainly >> I think I hope most parents, certainly this how I feel, this how I feel, this how I feel, >> I want my kids to have a better life >> I want my kids to have a better life >> I want my kids to have a better life than I did. than I did. than I did. >> Yeah, 100%. >> Yeah, 100%. >> Yeah, 100%. >> I I want to see them thrive and do >> I I want to see them thrive and do >> I I want to see them thrive and do things that I wasn't able to do or or things that I wasn't able to do or or things that I wasn't able to do or or have opportunities that I didn't have. have opportunities that I didn't have. have opportunities that I didn't have. >> Yeah. And so if I for example didn't >> Yeah. And so if I for example didn't >> Yeah. And so if I for example didn't have the right inputs to me as a child, have the right inputs to me as a child, have the right inputs to me as a child, >> I sure as hell want to make sure I'm >> I sure as hell want to make sure I'm >> I sure as hell want to make sure I'm giving my children that. giving my children that. giving my children that. >> So I think these conversations are >> So I think these conversations are >> So I think these conversations are important. And I think sometimes I don't important. And I think sometimes I don't important. And I think sometimes I don't mean at you. I think sometimes mean at you. I think sometimes mean at you. I think sometimes >> these days, maybe because of cancel >> these days, maybe because of cancel >> these days, maybe because of cancel culture, like culture, like culture, like >> we're sometimes too scared to say truth. >> we're sometimes too scared to say truth. >> we're sometimes too scared to say truth. >> It's like it's okay to say it. It's >> It's like it's okay to say it. It's >> It's like it's okay to say it. It's like, you know, yeah, you may not have like, you know, yeah, you may not have like, you know, yeah, you may not have had the best start. Okay. had the best start. Okay. had the best start. Okay. >> Yeah. But can you learn and give your >> Yeah. But can you learn and give your >> Yeah. But can you learn and give your kids something that you didn't have? kids something that you didn't have? kids something that you didn't have? >> Exactly. And I I think that was a >> Exactly. And I I think that was a >> Exactly. And I I think that was a balance I kept trying to find in the balance I kept trying to find in the balance I kept trying to find in the book between like oh god sometimes when book between like oh god sometimes when book between like oh god sometimes when you look at the data you're like it's you look at the data you're like it's you look at the data you're like it's quite depressing but also like it's quite depressing but also like it's quite depressing but also like it's never too late to start and as you know never too late to start and as you know never too late to start and as you know examples where I've spoken about in the examples where I've spoken about in the examples where I've spoken about in the book and we we've all heard of them of book and we we've all heard of them of book and we we've all heard of them of like you know people in their 60s and like you know people in their 60s and like you know people in their 60s and 70s suddenly taking up an activity and 70s suddenly taking up an activity and 70s suddenly taking up an activity and then or you know doing amazing physical then or you know doing amazing physical then or you know doing amazing physical feats whereas you know they were sort of feats whereas you know they were sort of feats whereas you know they were sort of frail and aging a few years before and I frail and aging a few years before and I frail and aging a few years before and I think that it when we think that it when we think that it when we start to have that narrative of it's too start to have that narrative of it's too start to have that narrative of it's too late for me. It's almost defeist. It's late for me. It's almost defeist. It's late for me. It's almost defeist. It's we're not even trying. we're not even trying. we're not even trying. >> Yeah. And it and it goes the flip side, >> Yeah. And it and it goes the flip side, >> Yeah. And it and it goes the flip side, doesn't it? You might have had the best doesn't it? You might have had the best doesn't it? You might have had the best teenage and adolescent life where your teenage and adolescent life where your teenage and adolescent life where your parents made sure you had all the right parents made sure you had all the right parents made sure you had all the right inputs. inputs. inputs. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, you've had great bone density >> So, you've had great bone density >> So, you've had great bone density building. building. building. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But you may be living a sedentary >> But you may be living a sedentary >> But you may be living a sedentary lifestyle and be doing nothing. And so, lifestyle and be doing nothing. And so, lifestyle and be doing nothing. And so, it's still going to start declining. it's still going to start declining. it's still going to start declining. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. So I think the message is >> Right. So I think the message is >> Right. So I think the message is empowering wherever you are, whatever empowering wherever you are, whatever empowering wherever you are, whatever your start was. It's never too late to your start was. It's never too late to your start was. It's never too late to start paying attention start paying attention start paying attention >> to your health and wellbeing. You you >> to your health and wellbeing. You you >> to your health and wellbeing. You you make that case throughout the book. make that case throughout the book. make that case throughout the book. >> Just come back to gut health for a >> Just come back to gut health for a >> Just come back to gut health for a minute cuz I do think that's a really minute cuz I do think that's a really minute cuz I do think that's a really provocative line. Gut health provocative line. Gut health provocative line. Gut health >> in midlife is both a mirror for our past >> in midlife is both a mirror for our past >> in midlife is both a mirror for our past and a compass for our future. and a compass for our future. and a compass for our future. I think in that chapter you're sort of I think in that chapter you're sort of I think in that chapter you're sort of making the case that all the choices making the case that all the choices making the case that all the choices you've made, you've made, you've made, some you were aware of, some you were some you were aware of, some you were some you were aware of, some you were not aware of, have influenced your gut not aware of, have influenced your gut not aware of, have influenced your gut health. health. health. >> And it might be in your 40s that it's >> And it might be in your 40s that it's >> And it might be in your 40s that it's coming home to roost. Right. coming home to roost. Right. coming home to roost. Right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And and you have covered this, but I >> And and you have covered this, but I >> And and you have covered this, but I just want to make sure we we've just want to make sure we we've just want to make sure we we've clarified it for people. clarified it for people. clarified it for people. They hear the latest podcast on gut They hear the latest podcast on gut They hear the latest podcast on gut health and as you say they go all in health and as you say they go all in health and as you say they go all in fermented foods and kimchi and kafir and fermented foods and kimchi and kafir and fermented foods and kimchi and kafir and stuff and they're bloated and they got stuff and they're bloated and they got stuff and they're bloated and they got wind and they don't like the way they wind and they don't like the way they wind and they don't like the way they feel. Right. feel. Right. feel. Right. >> I think your message is really be >> I think your message is really be >> I think your message is really be patient. patient. patient. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> You know, can you just elaborate on that >> You know, can you just elaborate on that >> You know, can you just elaborate on that a little bit because I know there'll be a little bit because I know there'll be a little bit because I know there'll be many people who've fallen into that trap many people who've fallen into that trap many people who've fallen into that trap before. before. before. >> Yeah. And I I completely advocate for >> Yeah. And I I completely advocate for >> Yeah. And I I completely advocate for all of these fermented foods and all of these fermented foods and all of these fermented foods and different plant diversity. And we have different plant diversity. And we have different plant diversity. And we have all the research coming out now to all the research coming out now to all the research coming out now to support that. But it is like go low and support that. But it is like go low and support that. But it is like go low and slow because you have to meet your body slow because you have to meet your body slow because you have to meet your body where it's at. You have to take the the where it's at. You have to take the the where it's at. You have to take the the symptoms as the feedback and not be symptoms as the feedback and not be symptoms as the feedback and not be like, well, I just made this amazing like, well, I just made this amazing like, well, I just made this amazing bean casserole with like three different bean casserole with like three different bean casserole with like three different types of beans and now I'm like, you types of beans and now I'm like, you types of beans and now I'm like, you know, bursting out of my jeans. I feel know, bursting out of my jeans. I feel know, bursting out of my jeans. I feel really uncomfortable. Um maybe the dose really uncomfortable. Um maybe the dose really uncomfortable. Um maybe the dose is really the important starting point is really the important starting point is really the important starting point in just bringing these things in really in just bringing these things in really in just bringing these things in really really small and allowing you know if we really small and allowing you know if we really small and allowing you know if we think about the microbes as digesting think about the microbes as digesting think about the microbes as digesting these rather than our body and our own these rather than our body and our own these rather than our body and our own ability to to break down these plant ability to to break down these plant ability to to break down these plant foods. It's really the microbes we might foods. It's really the microbes we might foods. It's really the microbes we might have lost some important communities. is have lost some important communities. is have lost some important communities. is we know that we have this successive we know that we have this successive we know that we have this successive loss of really important keystone loss of really important keystone loss of really important keystone communities happening with each communities happening with each communities happening with each generation and then we have layered on generation and then we have layered on generation and then we have layered on top of that periods of bad diet, top of that periods of bad diet, top of that periods of bad diet, different medications, um infections different medications, um infections different medications, um infections that we might have lost some and the that we might have lost some and the that we might have lost some and the communities that are in there need to communities that are in there need to communities that are in there need to adjust and you have to sort of coax them adjust and you have to sort of coax them adjust and you have to sort of coax them out with some fertilizer but low and out with some fertilizer but low and out with some fertilizer but low and slow. slow. slow. >> Um but I do think it's a really really >> Um but I do think it's a really really >> Um but I do think it's a really really worthwhile investment to do. Um, I just worthwhile investment to do. Um, I just worthwhile investment to do. Um, I just feel like the message can be quite feel like the message can be quite feel like the message can be quite simplistic online. Um, and I see many simplistic online. Um, and I see many simplistic online. Um, and I see many people just diving in and then not people just diving in and then not people just diving in and then not understanding why the healthy food makes understanding why the healthy food makes understanding why the healthy food makes them feel unhealthy. them feel unhealthy. them feel unhealthy. >> Why is oral health so important for our >> Why is oral health so important for our >> Why is oral health so important for our immune systems? immune systems? immune systems? >> Oh, I feel like this this along with >> Oh, I feel like this this along with >> Oh, I feel like this this along with olive oil are like my two big like olive oil are like my two big like olive oil are like my two big like longevity things. This actually started longevity things. This actually started longevity things. This actually started when I was at Sussex University and I I when I was at Sussex University and I I when I was at Sussex University and I I had this lady who um joined and she was had this lady who um joined and she was had this lady who um joined and she was coming to do a research project with me coming to do a research project with me coming to do a research project with me and she was previously a dentist in and she was previously a dentist in and she was previously a dentist in South America um and so she was really South America um and so she was really South America um and so she was really interested in uh rheumatoid arthritis interested in uh rheumatoid arthritis interested in uh rheumatoid arthritis and um autoimmune diseases generally and and um autoimmune diseases generally and and um autoimmune diseases generally and she was retraining in biomedical science she was retraining in biomedical science she was retraining in biomedical science but she had this dentistry background but she had this dentistry background but she had this dentistry background and we started looking at all the and we started looking at all the and we started looking at all the literature uh and there was this whole literature uh and there was this whole literature uh and there was this whole body of dental literature that I'd never body of dental literature that I'd never body of dental literature that I'd never come across because I'm not really come across because I'm not really come across because I'm not really living in the the dental world and living in the the dental world and living in the the dental world and reading that. Um, and then there's reading that. Um, and then there's reading that. Um, and then there's obviously the rheumatology literature obviously the rheumatology literature obviously the rheumatology literature which is looking at the immune response which is looking at the immune response which is looking at the immune response uh in rheumatoid arthritis. And what we uh in rheumatoid arthritis. And what we uh in rheumatoid arthritis. And what we found was that people who go and have found was that people who go and have found was that people who go and have their teeth cleaned regularly, have their teeth cleaned regularly, have their teeth cleaned regularly, have really good oral health, um frequently really good oral health, um frequently really good oral health, um frequently visit their dentist, they had visit their dentist, they had visit their dentist, they had improvements to symptoms of rheumatoid improvements to symptoms of rheumatoid improvements to symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis because this oral environment arthritis because this oral environment arthritis because this oral environment again was sort of seeding that whole again was sort of seeding that whole again was sort of seeding that whole body unwanted inflammation because of body unwanted inflammation because of body unwanted inflammation because of the the presence of um less favorable the the presence of um less favorable the the presence of um less favorable bacteria, you could say. Um, and when bacteria, you could say. Um, and when bacteria, you could say. Um, and when you're having that regular cleaning and you're having that regular cleaning and you're having that regular cleaning and you're taking care of your oral health, you're taking care of your oral health, you're taking care of your oral health, you're lessening the whole body you're lessening the whole body you're lessening the whole body inflammation, so you're lessening any inflammation, so you're lessening any inflammation, so you're lessening any symptoms. And then you can see that link symptoms. And then you can see that link symptoms. And then you can see that link now playing out in all sorts of things. now playing out in all sorts of things. now playing out in all sorts of things. So, um, cognitive decline is another one So, um, cognitive decline is another one So, um, cognitive decline is another one where people who look after their oral where people who look after their oral where people who look after their oral health, regular hygienist, dental health, regular hygienist, dental health, regular hygienist, dental visits, um, they can, uh, see visits, um, they can, uh, see visits, um, they can, uh, see improvements in in cognitive decline improvements in in cognitive decline improvements in in cognitive decline that's happening. So it's just amazing that's happening. So it's just amazing that's happening. So it's just amazing and it's upstream of the gut. So and it's upstream of the gut. So and it's upstream of the gut. So whatever we're breathing, swallowing, whatever we're breathing, swallowing, whatever we're breathing, swallowing, whatever is happening in the mouth, it's whatever is happening in the mouth, it's whatever is happening in the mouth, it's again it's going to both our gut but again it's going to both our gut but again it's going to both our gut but then through the gums into the then through the gums into the then through the gums into the bloodstream and affecting what's going bloodstream and affecting what's going bloodstream and affecting what's going on everywhere else. And wherever there's on everywhere else. And wherever there's on everywhere else. And wherever there's a bacteria, which we have our whole oral a bacteria, which we have our whole oral a bacteria, which we have our whole oral microbiome microbiome microbiome that you know the the immune system has that you know the the immune system has that you know the the immune system has evolved to detect bacteria. So if evolved to detect bacteria. So if evolved to detect bacteria. So if they're friendly bacteria, they have a they're friendly bacteria, they have a they're friendly bacteria, they have a good working relationship, but the good working relationship, but the good working relationship, but the minute they're in the wrong place and minute they're in the wrong place and minute they're in the wrong place and they slip through into the bloodstream, they slip through into the bloodstream, they slip through into the bloodstream, the immune system's on it going, "We the immune system's on it going, "We the immune system's on it going, "We need to get rid of this bacteria." But need to get rid of this bacteria." But need to get rid of this bacteria." But it does that with inflammation. it does that with inflammation. it does that with inflammation. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Just goes to show how interconnected the Just goes to show how interconnected the Just goes to show how interconnected the entire body is, right? Better oral entire body is, right? Better oral entire body is, right? Better oral health, reduction in rheumatoid health, reduction in rheumatoid health, reduction in rheumatoid arthritis symptoms. arthritis symptoms. arthritis symptoms. >> Again, we said that right at the start, >> Again, we said that right at the start, >> Again, we said that right at the start, didn't we? These are not separate didn't we? These are not separate didn't we? These are not separate organs. These are connected and the organs. These are connected and the organs. These are connected and the immune system sits at the heart of them immune system sits at the heart of them immune system sits at the heart of them all. all. all. >> We almost need the rheatologists to be >> We almost need the rheatologists to be >> We almost need the rheatologists to be referring their patients to the dentists referring their patients to the dentists referring their patients to the dentists more regularly and vice versa. If the more regularly and vice versa. If the more regularly and vice versa. If the dentist spot something in the gums and dentist spot something in the gums and dentist spot something in the gums and then maybe saying go get checked out by then maybe saying go get checked out by then maybe saying go get checked out by your doctor. your doctor. your doctor. >> Yes. It's almost as if you know if we >> Yes. It's almost as if you know if we >> Yes. It's almost as if you know if we were starting medicine today from were starting medicine today from were starting medicine today from scratch which of course is impossible. scratch which of course is impossible. scratch which of course is impossible. we may not set it up in the way in which we may not set it up in the way in which we may not set it up in the way in which it's currently set up. We may actually it's currently set up. We may actually it's currently set up. We may actually go and and actually I think it's go and and actually I think it's go and and actually I think it's reasonable to say this if you look reasonable to say this if you look reasonable to say this if you look >> at both the research >> at both the research >> at both the research >> and the historical application of >> and the historical application of >> and the historical application of medicine medicine medicine >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> from clinicians. >> from clinicians. >> from clinicians. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think you could almost say the way >> I think you could almost say the way >> I think you could almost say the way we've got it set up in many ways is we've got it set up in many ways is we've got it set up in many ways is misguided. misguided. misguided. >> Instead of organs, it should perhaps be >> Instead of organs, it should perhaps be >> Instead of organs, it should perhaps be systems. systems. systems. >> Be systems. So we definitely should have >> Be systems. So we definitely should have >> Be systems. So we definitely should have a immunology as a kind of standalone a immunology as a kind of standalone a immunology as a kind of standalone that's touching base with all the other that's touching base with all the other that's touching base with all the other specialists. specialists. specialists. >> Yeah. I guess the only problem with >> Yeah. I guess the only problem with >> Yeah. I guess the only problem with that, well, I I agree with you, is that that, well, I I agree with you, is that that, well, I I agree with you, is that if you then became a an immunology if you then became a an immunology if you then became a an immunology medical specialist, medical specialist, medical specialist, you're basically doing everything you're basically doing everything you're basically doing everything >> because because the inflammation comes >> because because the inflammation comes >> because because the inflammation comes from the immune system and the from the immune system and the from the immune system and the inflammation is at the heart of inflammation is at the heart of inflammation is at the heart of Alzheimer's and heart attacks and Alzheimer's and heart attacks and Alzheimer's and heart attacks and strokes and type two diabetes. So, strokes and type two diabetes. So, strokes and type two diabetes. So, >> you're becoming the expert generalist. >> you're becoming the expert generalist. >> you're becoming the expert generalist. >> Yeah. I sort of see it like a tree. like >> Yeah. I sort of see it like a tree. like >> Yeah. I sort of see it like a tree. like all of these things on the branches, but all of these things on the branches, but all of these things on the branches, but there's just one big root. there's just one big root. there's just one big root. >> Yeah. Or at the very least, >> Yeah. Or at the very least, >> Yeah. Or at the very least, even if you work in an organ even if you work in an organ even if you work in an organ specialtity, specialtity, specialtity, >> you should have some training. >> you should have some training. >> you should have some training. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Or, >> Or, >> Or, >> you know, professional development in >> you know, professional development in >> you know, professional development in immunology. Yes. immunology. Yes. immunology. Yes. >> Cuz frankly, a lot of doctors just don't >> Cuz frankly, a lot of doctors just don't >> Cuz frankly, a lot of doctors just don't have that. have that. have that. >> Yeah. And good understanding of chronic >> Yeah. And good understanding of chronic >> Yeah. And good understanding of chronic inflammation. I think inflammation. I think inflammation. I think >> Exactly. We've talked a lot about the >> Exactly. We've talked a lot about the >> Exactly. We've talked a lot about the practical things that we can do for our practical things that we can do for our practical things that we can do for our immune system, but I want to go back to immune system, but I want to go back to immune system, but I want to go back to one of the kind of main ideas in your one of the kind of main ideas in your one of the kind of main ideas in your latest book that I really enjoyed. You latest book that I really enjoyed. You latest book that I really enjoyed. You know, what is the point of all of this? know, what is the point of all of this? know, what is the point of all of this? >> You know, why should you make time to do >> You know, why should you make time to do >> You know, why should you make time to do these things? these things? these things? >> Um, what is the point of life and and >> Um, what is the point of life and and >> Um, what is the point of life and and and how we're living our lives? And you and how we're living our lives? And you and how we're living our lives? And you kind of start off the book in in quite a kind of start off the book in in quite a kind of start off the book in in quite a provocative way, don't you? you know, provocative way, don't you? you know, provocative way, don't you? you know, um, in fact, do you mind if I read the um, in fact, do you mind if I read the um, in fact, do you mind if I read the first few lines to you? This is first few lines to you? This is first few lines to you? This is literally the opening to the book. literally the opening to the book. literally the opening to the book. Let's start with an easy question. Let's start with an easy question. Let's start with an easy question. Are you scared of dying? Why did you start the book with that Why did you start the book with that question? question? question? >> I think I felt like I wasn't really >> I think I felt like I wasn't really >> I think I felt like I wasn't really living, but I wasn't obviously dead. um living, but I wasn't obviously dead. um living, but I wasn't obviously dead. um at the time when I was coming up with at the time when I was coming up with at the time when I was coming up with the the book idea. Um and I think then the the book idea. Um and I think then the the book idea. Um and I think then there was this rise in longevity trends there was this rise in longevity trends there was this rise in longevity trends all around me and I was kind of like all around me and I was kind of like all around me and I was kind of like what's the point? Um and I think we're what's the point? Um and I think we're what's the point? Um and I think we're all inherently scared of dying. I think all inherently scared of dying. I think all inherently scared of dying. I think everything that we've talked about today everything that we've talked about today everything that we've talked about today like all of the stuff about our nervous like all of the stuff about our nervous like all of the stuff about our nervous system and our immune system is it's to system and our immune system is it's to system and our immune system is it's to stop us from dying. is to keep us safe stop us from dying. is to keep us safe stop us from dying. is to keep us safe so we don't injure ourselves so that we so we don't injure ourselves so that we so we don't injure ourselves so that we can heal when we are injured. I think can heal when we are injured. I think can heal when we are injured. I think we're all inherently scared of dying. we're all inherently scared of dying. we're all inherently scared of dying. But that should be the immunity to not But that should be the immunity to not But that should be the immunity to not have a life unlived like it's almost to have a life unlived like it's almost to have a life unlived like it's almost to inoculate us to enjoy the moment because inoculate us to enjoy the moment because inoculate us to enjoy the moment because you really don't none of us have the you really don't none of us have the you really don't none of us have the control over when we die. people with control over when we die. people with control over when we die. people with their optimization protocols and wanting their optimization protocols and wanting their optimization protocols and wanting to live in to be 120. Something could to live in to be 120. Something could to live in to be 120. Something could happen to all of us tomorrow. And I just happen to all of us tomorrow. And I just happen to all of us tomorrow. And I just I really had this point where I can't I I really had this point where I can't I I really had this point where I can't I can't have a wasted life. I can't look can't have a wasted life. I can't look can't have a wasted life. I can't look back in a decade and be like, I back in a decade and be like, I back in a decade and be like, I continued being so unhappy with so many continued being so unhappy with so many continued being so unhappy with so many things in my life. I have to make things in my life. I have to make things in my life. I have to make changes. Um, and I guess I hoped for changes. Um, and I guess I hoped for changes. Um, and I guess I hoped for people reading it that, you know, I have people reading it that, you know, I have people reading it that, you know, I have had people since come to me and say, "I had people since come to me and say, "I had people since come to me and say, "I did what you did. I I threw loads of did what you did. I I threw loads of did what you did. I I threw loads of grenades and blew at my life." And I was grenades and blew at my life." And I was grenades and blew at my life." And I was like, "I didn't really mean you to do like, "I didn't really mean you to do like, "I didn't really mean you to do that." But but they're like, "No, it's that." But but they're like, "No, it's that." But but they're like, "No, it's great. I'm a lot happier now." Um, and I great. I'm a lot happier now." Um, and I great. I'm a lot happier now." Um, and I I do think that definitely happens I do think that definitely happens I do think that definitely happens around the the midlife point. Um, but around the the midlife point. Um, but around the the midlife point. Um, but yeah, I think we're all scared of dying, yeah, I think we're all scared of dying, yeah, I think we're all scared of dying, and that's the point. And I think, you and that's the point. And I think, you and that's the point. And I think, you know, we we give ourselves meaning if we know, we we give ourselves meaning if we know, we we give ourselves meaning if we need it, but we can also just enjoy the need it, but we can also just enjoy the need it, but we can also just enjoy the ride and ride and ride and >> sort of be be more present, deepen our >> sort of be be more present, deepen our >> sort of be be more present, deepen our soul span, soul span, soul span, notice the little things in the day and notice the little things in the day and notice the little things in the day and the beauty. You know, spring is the beauty. You know, spring is the beauty. You know, spring is unfolding. I could quite easily just, unfolding. I could quite easily just, unfolding. I could quite easily just, you know, get to summer and not even you know, get to summer and not even you know, get to summer and not even have stopped to sort of notice the have stopped to sort of notice the have stopped to sort of notice the daffodils. We rush through everything. daffodils. We rush through everything. daffodils. We rush through everything. >> Yeah. It's so beautiful the way you put >> Yeah. It's so beautiful the way you put >> Yeah. It's so beautiful the way you put that, Jenna. And it's it's kind of that, Jenna. And it's it's kind of that, Jenna. And it's it's kind of interesting, you know, time and the interesting, you know, time and the interesting, you know, time and the passage of time is this underlying passage of time is this underlying passage of time is this underlying feature through throughout your book. feature through throughout your book. feature through throughout your book. And I'm just thinking back now, if And I'm just thinking back now, if And I'm just thinking back now, if someone had told me in my 20ies someone had told me in my 20ies someone had told me in my 20ies >> to notice the daffodils, hear the birds. >> to notice the daffodils, hear the birds. >> to notice the daffodils, hear the birds. You know what? In fact, my mom probably You know what? In fact, my mom probably You know what? In fact, my mom probably did. did. did. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it probably went in through one ear >> And it probably went in through one ear >> And it probably went in through one ear and out the other. and out the other. and out the other. >> Yeah. I think there's certain messages >> Yeah. I think there's certain messages >> Yeah. I think there's certain messages that are right at certain times. that are right at certain times. that are right at certain times. >> Do you know what I mean? >> Do you know what I mean? >> Do you know what I mean? >> And I think that's something as a parent >> And I think that's something as a parent >> And I think that's something as a parent I've had to accept with my kids. It's I've had to accept with my kids. It's I've had to accept with my kids. It's like, yeah, they're they're probably not like, yeah, they're they're probably not like, yeah, they're they're probably not ready for that message. I mean, I'll ready for that message. I mean, I'll ready for that message. I mean, I'll share it. I'll try and impart it, but share it. I'll try and impart it, but share it. I'll try and impart it, but maybe maybe maybe >> they'll get there when it's right for >> they'll get there when it's right for >> they'll get there when it's right for them. them. them. >> Yeah. You've planted the seed. Yeah, I >> Yeah. You've planted the seed. Yeah, I >> Yeah. You've planted the seed. Yeah, I think that's, think that's, think that's, >> you know, I think one of the reasons I >> you know, I think one of the reasons I >> you know, I think one of the reasons I really enjoy the way in which you've really enjoy the way in which you've really enjoy the way in which you've written this book is because written this book is because written this book is because it does articulate it does articulate it does articulate the things I'm thinking about. the things I'm thinking about. the things I'm thinking about. >> I feel that you can cultivate gratitude. >> I feel that you can cultivate gratitude. >> I feel that you can cultivate gratitude. You can cultivate calm, you can You can cultivate calm, you can You can cultivate calm, you can cultivate presence. I like you have cultivate presence. I like you have cultivate presence. I like you have meditation as a meditation as a meditation as a >> regular feature in my life. And the >> regular feature in my life. And the >> regular feature in my life. And the reason I couldn't do is because I reason I couldn't do is because I reason I couldn't do is because I misunderstood misunderstood misunderstood >> what meditation was. >> what meditation was. >> what meditation was. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And these days I love it. >> And these days I love it. >> And these days I love it. >> Yeah. And you know, we we spoke about >> Yeah. And you know, we we spoke about >> Yeah. And you know, we we spoke about the the worrying news stories um earlier the the worrying news stories um earlier the the worrying news stories um earlier on in this conversation and the impact on in this conversation and the impact on in this conversation and the impact that has on our immune system and our that has on our immune system and our that has on our immune system and our stress levels. stress levels. stress levels. >> But I always think back to the Dalai >> But I always think back to the Dalai >> But I always think back to the Dalai Lama quote when he said, "If every Lama quote when he said, "If every Lama quote when he said, "If every 8-year-old on the planet was taught how 8-year-old on the planet was taught how 8-year-old on the planet was taught how to meditate, to meditate, to meditate, >> we'd eliminate violence within a >> we'd eliminate violence within a >> we'd eliminate violence within a generation." generation." generation." >> Yeah, it's beautiful. >> Yeah, it's beautiful. >> Yeah, it's beautiful. >> Which is beautiful. And I believe it to >> Which is beautiful. And I believe it to >> Which is beautiful. And I believe it to be true. And you know, as we speak, be true. And you know, as we speak, be true. And you know, as we speak, Jenna, I've done something I haven't Jenna, I've done something I haven't Jenna, I've done something I haven't done before, which is, you know, done before, which is, you know, done before, which is, you know, >> on all my channels, we're doing a March >> on all my channels, we're doing a March >> on all my channels, we're doing a March meditation challenge with in partnership meditation challenge with in partnership meditation challenge with in partnership with um an app called The Way by Henry with um an app called The Way by Henry with um an app called The Way by Henry Shook, which Shook, which Shook, which >> I love Henry. >> I love Henry. >> I love Henry. >> Yeah, Henry's Henry did the meditation >> Yeah, Henry's Henry did the meditation >> Yeah, Henry's Henry did the meditation retreat I was on. And retreat I was on. And retreat I was on. And >> Henry's been on the show twice. And that >> Henry's been on the show twice. And that >> Henry's been on the show twice. And that app, I think, is for me the best app, I think, is for me the best app, I think, is for me the best meditation app I've come across. So, we meditation app I've come across. So, we meditation app I've come across. So, we partner with them. And at the moment, as partner with them. And at the moment, as partner with them. And at the moment, as of last night, there's 20,000 people. of last night, there's 20,000 people. of last night, there's 20,000 people. We've got We've got We've got >> amazing >> amazing >> amazing >> meditating on the way during March. >> meditating on the way during March. >> meditating on the way during March. >> That's amazing. >> That's amazing. >> That's amazing. >> And I I hope that, you know, this is, >> And I I hope that, you know, this is, >> And I I hope that, you know, this is, you know, got 30 free meditations there you know, got 30 free meditations there you know, got 30 free meditations there for people. And my hope is that for people. And my hope is that for people. And my hope is that >> that's enough time to >> that's enough time to >> that's enough time to >> cuz I think two or three days is not >> cuz I think two or three days is not >> cuz I think two or three days is not really enough. Even a week, you know, really enough. Even a week, you know, really enough. Even a week, you know, you need to do it enough to go, you need to do it enough to go, you need to do it enough to go, >> oh, this is what it brings to my life. >> oh, this is what it brings to my life. >> oh, this is what it brings to my life. So, I'm hoping some of them So, I'm hoping some of them So, I'm hoping some of them >> continue with the practice >> continue with the practice >> continue with the practice >> afterwards. And I think those solitude >> afterwards. And I think those solitude >> afterwards. And I think those solitude stillness practices stillness practices stillness practices >> they really help us with the meaning of >> they really help us with the meaning of >> they really help us with the meaning of life. Um life. Um life. Um >> you won't know this but the first thing >> you won't know this but the first thing >> you won't know this but the first thing I underlined in your book and one of the I underlined in your book and one of the I underlined in your book and one of the first things was a quote from my mom's first things was a quote from my mom's first things was a quote from my mom's favorite poet of all time. favorite poet of all time. favorite poet of all time. >> Ah >> Ah >> Ah >> so my mom still now on her wall has a >> so my mom still now on her wall has a >> so my mom still now on her wall has a picture of Rabindraat Tagore. picture of Rabindraat Tagore. picture of Rabindraat Tagore. >> Oh wow. >> Oh wow. >> Oh wow. >> He is my mom's idol. >> He is my mom's idol. >> He is my mom's idol. >> Oh he's brilliant. And you know in page >> Oh he's brilliant. And you know in page >> Oh he's brilliant. And you know in page three of the book you you you quote from three of the book you you you quote from three of the book you you you quote from him. You say, "The one who plants trees him. You say, "The one who plants trees him. You say, "The one who plants trees knowing that he will never sit in their knowing that he will never sit in their knowing that he will never sit in their shade has at least started to understand shade has at least started to understand shade has at least started to understand the meaning of life." the meaning of life." the meaning of life." >> Oh, it gives me goosebumps. >> Oh, it gives me goosebumps. >> Oh, it gives me goosebumps. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What does that quote mean to you? >> What does that quote mean to you? >> What does that quote mean to you? >> I think it's, you know, we have a >> I think it's, you know, we have a >> I think it's, you know, we have a responsibility to future generations. We responsibility to future generations. We responsibility to future generations. We kind of there's a lot of stuff talk kind of there's a lot of stuff talk kind of there's a lot of stuff talk about the self and look after a self and about the self and look after a self and about the self and look after a self and selfcare and stuff, but we're all this selfcare and stuff, but we're all this selfcare and stuff, but we're all this big network and like you mentioned to big network and like you mentioned to big network and like you mentioned to your kids, you'll you'll plant the seed your kids, you'll you'll plant the seed your kids, you'll you'll plant the seed of these ideas in their head knowing of these ideas in their head knowing of these ideas in their head knowing that you know the next two decades that you know the next two decades that you know the next two decades they'll go off and do their own thing, they'll go off and do their own thing, they'll go off and do their own thing, but you planted the seed and that's but you planted the seed and that's but you planted the seed and that's important. and the work you do. It's important. and the work you do. It's important. and the work you do. It's like making sure that it's benefiting like making sure that it's benefiting like making sure that it's benefiting the next generations cuz one day we the next generations cuz one day we the next generations cuz one day we won't be here and we have a won't be here and we have a won't be here and we have a responsibility to leave something behind responsibility to leave something behind responsibility to leave something behind for the next generation. for the next generation. for the next generation. >> What do you think the meaning of life >> What do you think the meaning of life >> What do you think the meaning of life is? is? is? >> I think it's to um >> I think it's to um >> I think it's to um probably grapple with the human probably grapple with the human probably grapple with the human condition and condition and condition and understand that we only ever have the understand that we only ever have the understand that we only ever have the present moment. Um, and that is so present moment. Um, and that is so present moment. Um, and that is so difficult, but yet somehow that's what difficult, but yet somehow that's what difficult, but yet somehow that's what makes it so beautiful. makes it so beautiful. makes it so beautiful. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> it's really interesting, Jenna. Since I >> it's really interesting, Jenna. Since I >> it's really interesting, Jenna. Since I last saw you, which was in this studio, maybe five or six years ago, maybe five or six years ago, I know you've been through significant I know you've been through significant I know you've been through significant life changes. And what's really life changes. And what's really life changes. And what's really interesting is that most people would interesting is that most people would interesting is that most people would probably say that probably say that probably say that if they had to make those kind of life if they had to make those kind of life if they had to make those kind of life changes, you said you left your job, you changes, you said you left your job, you changes, you said you left your job, you left your marriage, you're now, I guess, left your marriage, you're now, I guess, left your marriage, you're now, I guess, a single mother, a single mother, a single mother, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> They would probably think, well, yeah, >> They would probably think, well, yeah, >> They would probably think, well, yeah, but doing those things is going to make but doing those things is going to make but doing those things is going to make it harder for me to look after myself it harder for me to look after myself it harder for me to look after myself cuz life is going to be busier and more cuz life is going to be busier and more cuz life is going to be busier and more stressful. stressful. stressful. >> The impression I'm getting from you is >> The impression I'm getting from you is >> The impression I'm getting from you is that it's been quite the opposite. Yeah. that it's been quite the opposite. Yeah. that it's been quite the opposite. Yeah. And I would say it's hard but a And I would say it's hard but a And I would say it's hard but a different hard. And I think that comes different hard. And I think that comes different hard. And I think that comes back to when we talked about alignment. back to when we talked about alignment. back to when we talked about alignment. There's the hard of dayto-day of doing There's the hard of dayto-day of doing There's the hard of dayto-day of doing all the stuff on your own, but then I all the stuff on your own, but then I all the stuff on your own, but then I feel so aligned that have way more feel so aligned that have way more feel so aligned that have way more energy. So everything has a different energy. So everything has a different energy. So everything has a different texture and um and maybe people can texture and um and maybe people can texture and um and maybe people can think of a time they've experienced that think of a time they've experienced that think of a time they've experienced that like when you're so in flow and aligned like when you're so in flow and aligned like when you're so in flow and aligned you you your capacity starts to expand you you your capacity starts to expand you you your capacity starts to expand whereas when you're kind of in this like whereas when you're kind of in this like whereas when you're kind of in this like um fear safety mode then everything is um fear safety mode then everything is um fear safety mode then everything is sort of shrunk. So it's like in biology sort of shrunk. So it's like in biology sort of shrunk. So it's like in biology you have anabolic and catabolic there's you have anabolic and catabolic there's you have anabolic and catabolic there's always a buildup and a breakdown or the always a buildup and a breakdown or the always a buildup and a breakdown or the seasons of life like winter everything seasons of life like winter everything seasons of life like winter everything dies and spring it comes back it's dies and spring it comes back it's dies and spring it comes back it's always sort of flowing always sort of flowing always sort of flowing >> and if we can sort of find a way to lean >> and if we can sort of find a way to lean >> and if we can sort of find a way to lean into the sort of opening up of our life into the sort of opening up of our life into the sort of opening up of our life then we we just have more capacity and then we we just have more capacity and then we we just have more capacity and like it's not just a simple case of sort like it's not just a simple case of sort like it's not just a simple case of sort of energy in energy out. It's like when of energy in energy out. It's like when of energy in energy out. It's like when everything's sort of coherent and and everything's sort of coherent and and everything's sort of coherent and and synchronized and you're living in synchronized and you're living in synchronized and you're living in alignment, you suddenly you can do so alignment, you suddenly you can do so alignment, you suddenly you can do so much more. much more. much more. >> Yeah, Jenna, it's been such a joy >> Yeah, Jenna, it's been such a joy >> Yeah, Jenna, it's been such a joy talking to you. I I honestly think the talking to you. I I honestly think the talking to you. I I honestly think the book is is such a beautiful book. So book is is such a beautiful book. So book is is such a beautiful book. So gorgeously written, gorgeously written, gorgeously written, >> Immune to Age, the gamechanging science >> Immune to Age, the gamechanging science >> Immune to Age, the gamechanging science of lifetime health. of lifetime health. of lifetime health. >> I didn't know it's also coming out of >> I didn't know it's also coming out of >> I didn't know it's also coming out of paperback very, very shortly. So that's paperback very, very shortly. So that's paperback very, very shortly. So that's super exciting. super exciting. super exciting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> As well, >> As well, >> As well, >> you've also got your Substack, haven't >> you've also got your Substack, haven't >> you've also got your Substack, haven't you? as well as your Instagram. Uh, you? as well as your Instagram. Uh, you? as well as your Instagram. Uh, >> and I know you really enjoy that. Can >> and I know you really enjoy that. Can >> and I know you really enjoy that. Can you tell people about the Substack and you tell people about the Substack and you tell people about the Substack and what they can expect from it? what they can expect from it? what they can expect from it? >> Yeah, I mean I I do have a love of long >> Yeah, I mean I I do have a love of long >> Yeah, I mean I I do have a love of long form writing I've discovered. So, while form writing I've discovered. So, while form writing I've discovered. So, while I Instagram's kind of my little sandbox I Instagram's kind of my little sandbox I Instagram's kind of my little sandbox of ideas and I share lots of personal of ideas and I share lots of personal of ideas and I share lots of personal stuff and lots of immune system stuff, stuff and lots of immune system stuff, stuff and lots of immune system stuff, but Substack I've leaned into is like, but Substack I've leaned into is like, but Substack I've leaned into is like, right, okay, now I can take people into right, okay, now I can take people into right, okay, now I can take people into the nuance with me. Um, and it's been the nuance with me. Um, and it's been the nuance with me. Um, and it's been really fun. And it's it's such a nice really fun. And it's it's such a nice really fun. And it's it's such a nice platform for people like me who who like platform for people like me who who like platform for people like me who who like writing but I can't constantly be writing but I can't constantly be writing but I can't constantly be writing books and a little bit more writing books and a little bit more writing books and a little bit more detail than detail than detail than >> so they just look up your name Jenna >> so they just look up your name Jenna >> so they just look up your name Jenna Machokei on Substack and Machokei on Substack and Machokei on Substack and >> yeah Substack it's the science of >> yeah Substack it's the science of >> yeah Substack it's the science of staying well which is the title of my staying well which is the title of my staying well which is the title of my first book so or if you type in my name first book so or if you type in my name first book so or if you type in my name it's all linked to my Instagram as well it's all linked to my Instagram as well it's all linked to my Instagram as well but yeah I'd love to to see more people but yeah I'd love to to see more people but yeah I'd love to to see more people come over there and and read my content come over there and and read my content come over there and and read my content and join in the conversation. Yeah. and join in the conversation. Yeah. and join in the conversation. Yeah. Amazing. Jennifer question for someone Amazing. Jennifer question for someone Amazing. Jennifer question for someone who who who has been listening to this conversation has been listening to this conversation has been listening to this conversation who has realized throughout it that they who has realized throughout it that they who has realized throughout it that they have neglected their immune system have neglected their immune system have neglected their immune system health health health >> for the bulk of their lives, but they >> for the bulk of their lives, but they >> for the bulk of their lives, but they feel as though it's too late to do feel as though it's too late to do feel as though it's too late to do anything about it. anything about it. anything about it. >> What would you say to them? >> What would you say to them? >> What would you say to them? >> It's never too late. And I know that >> It's never too late. And I know that >> It's never too late. And I know that sounds really kind of contrived, but um sounds really kind of contrived, but um sounds really kind of contrived, but um start with a bit of self-compassion. You start with a bit of self-compassion. You start with a bit of self-compassion. You know, if there's areas you've neglected, know, if there's areas you've neglected, know, if there's areas you've neglected, there was reasons. And you now have the there was reasons. And you now have the there was reasons. And you now have the opportunity to start to build up your opportunity to start to build up your opportunity to start to build up your capacity and start really really small, capacity and start really really small, capacity and start really really small, like so small and just little tiny like so small and just little tiny like so small and just little tiny increments and know that that repetition increments and know that that repetition increments and know that that repetition starts to become innate over time. So starts to become innate over time. So starts to become innate over time. So start with the self-compassion piece and start with the self-compassion piece and start with the self-compassion piece and then start with kind of looking at one then start with kind of looking at one then start with kind of looking at one area of your life and see it like a area of your life and see it like a area of your life and see it like a little experiment you know and really little experiment you know and really little experiment you know and really encourage people to be their own kind of encourage people to be their own kind of encourage people to be their own kind of citizen science their own end of one citizen science their own end of one citizen science their own end of one experiment you know write stuff down see experiment you know write stuff down see experiment you know write stuff down see what you notice start to to experiment what you notice start to to experiment what you notice start to to experiment but very very slowly and cut out the but very very slowly and cut out the but very very slowly and cut out the noise you know we have so much to noise you know we have so much to noise you know we have so much to compare ourselves to and everyone has a compare ourselves to and everyone has a compare ourselves to and everyone has a different story. compare yourself to who different story. compare yourself to who different story. compare yourself to who you were yesterday, not, you know, all you were yesterday, not, you know, all you were yesterday, not, you know, all of the shiny things we might be seeing of the shiny things we might be seeing of the shiny things we might be seeing on social media. on social media. on social media. >> Yeah, Jenna, I love that. It's been >> Yeah, Jenna, I love that. It's been >> Yeah, Jenna, I love that. It's been super fun talking to you. super fun talking to you. super fun talking to you. >> Thank you for making the journey up to >> Thank you for making the journey up to >> Thank you for making the journey up to the studio. the studio. the studio. >> No worries. It's been amazing. Thank >> No worries. It's been amazing. Thank >> No worries. It's been amazing. Thank you. you. you. >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then I >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then I >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then I think you are really going to enjoy this think you are really going to enjoy this think you are really going to enjoy this one that I've picked out especially. one that I've picked out especially. one that I've picked out especially. >> We need to realize whatever we put into >> We need to realize whatever we put into >> We need to realize whatever we put into our body is either going to take our our body is either going to take our our body is either going to take our health down or build our health back up. health down or build our health back up. health down or build our health back up. And it all works at the level the And it all works at the level the And it all works at the level the defense systems.