Neuroscientists 7‑Day Habit Reset: Start Today, Feel Different By Next Week

a part of your morning routine, 30 a part of your morning routine, 30 minutes of exercise every single minutes of exercise every single minutes of exercise every single morning, Monday to Friday, but also at morning, Monday to Friday, but also at morning, Monday to Friday, but also at weekends. And I believe that that has weekends. And I believe that that has weekends. And I believe that that has been informed by your research. been informed by your research. been informed by your research. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> So why do you do that? >> So why do you do that? >> So why do you do that? I do that because I know from not just I do that because I know from not just I do that because I know from not just my research but the research of all of my research but the research of all of my research but the research of all of my colleagues that every single time you my colleagues that every single time you my colleagues that every single time you move your body starting with just move your body starting with just move your body starting with just walking but I like to do kind of cardio walking but I like to do kind of cardio walking but I like to do kind of cardio weights workout for 30 minutes. What weights workout for 30 minutes. What weights workout for 30 minutes. What that is doing it is releasing a whole that is doing it is releasing a whole that is doing it is releasing a whole bunch of neurochemicals in your brain. bunch of neurochemicals in your brain. bunch of neurochemicals in your brain. And all your listeners out there have And all your listeners out there have And all your listeners out there have heard of some of these neurochemicals. heard of some of these neurochemicals. heard of some of these neurochemicals. Dopamine, serotonin, noradrenaline, but Dopamine, serotonin, noradrenaline, but Dopamine, serotonin, noradrenaline, but also growth factors are being released. also growth factors are being released. also growth factors are being released. And I like to say that it's like giving And I like to say that it's like giving And I like to say that it's like giving your brain a wonderful bubble bath of your brain a wonderful bubble bath of your brain a wonderful bubble bath of neurochemicals. And what do these neurochemicals. And what do these neurochemicals. And what do these neurochemicals do? Well, the dopamine neurochemicals do? Well, the dopamine neurochemicals do? Well, the dopamine and serotonin are making you feel good. and serotonin are making you feel good. and serotonin are making you feel good. They're bringing your energy up. And the They're bringing your energy up. And the They're bringing your energy up. And the other thing that we know that happens other thing that we know that happens other thing that we know that happens with uh movement, physical activity, is with uh movement, physical activity, is with uh movement, physical activity, is that the functions of your prefrontal that the functions of your prefrontal that the functions of your prefrontal cortex right behind your forehead um get cortex right behind your forehead um get cortex right behind your forehead um get sharper. they get better. And so, um, I sharper. they get better. And so, um, I sharper. they get better. And so, um, I do that first thing in the morning and I do that first thing in the morning and I do that first thing in the morning and I do that to prepare my brain for work. do that to prepare my brain for work. do that to prepare my brain for work. And, uh, I want to come into work. I And, uh, I want to come into work. I And, uh, I want to come into work. I want to be happy. I want to be want to be happy. I want to be want to be happy. I want to be motivated. I, and I want to be able to motivated. I, and I want to be able to motivated. I, and I want to be able to focus well. And the reason why I do it focus well. And the reason why I do it focus well. And the reason why I do it every morning for 30 minutes, no matter every morning for 30 minutes, no matter every morning for 30 minutes, no matter what day it is, is um, really about what day it is, is um, really about what day it is, is um, really about habit formation. I I was all over the habit formation. I I was all over the habit formation. I I was all over the place. you know, I would go for, you place. you know, I would go for, you place. you know, I would go for, you know, seven days in a row and then, oh, know, seven days in a row and then, oh, know, seven days in a row and then, oh, I' I'd be too tired. I found really I' I'd be too tired. I found really I' I'd be too tired. I found really during the pandemic that 30 minutes during the pandemic that 30 minutes during the pandemic that 30 minutes first thing in the morning was something first thing in the morning was something first thing in the morning was something that I can do. I could keep doing it that I can do. I could keep doing it that I can do. I could keep doing it every single day. It didn't tire me out every single day. It didn't tire me out every single day. It didn't tire me out the next day and I still felt motivated the next day and I still felt motivated the next day and I still felt motivated to come and my muscles weren't too sore. to come and my muscles weren't too sore. to come and my muscles weren't too sore. Uh, and it just helped with that that um Uh, and it just helped with that that um Uh, and it just helped with that that um gradual habit formation. So I do it for gradual habit formation. So I do it for gradual habit formation. So I do it for my brain and for my brain uh my brain and for my brain uh my brain and for my brain uh productivity uh and uh the the 30 productivity uh and uh the the 30 productivity uh and uh the the 30 minutes every morning is really about minutes every morning is really about minutes every morning is really about building that habit that will stick with building that habit that will stick with building that habit that will stick with you and does not go away. you and does not go away. you and does not go away. >> You mentioned a lot of things there that >> You mentioned a lot of things there that >> You mentioned a lot of things there that I think we all want. I think we all want. I think we all want. Happiness, motivation, Happiness, motivation, Happiness, motivation, focus, productivity, thinking better. focus, productivity, thinking better. focus, productivity, thinking better. >> Yes. You know, these are things that no >> Yes. You know, these are things that no >> Yes. You know, these are things that no matter who we are, we're all seeking matter who we are, we're all seeking matter who we are, we're all seeking them in our lives. them in our lives. them in our lives. >> Now, you've found that when you do this >> Now, you've found that when you do this >> Now, you've found that when you do this as part of your morning routine, as part of your morning routine, as part of your morning routine, you almost set your body and brain up you almost set your body and brain up you almost set your body and brain up for the day with those emotions and for the day with those emotions and for the day with those emotions and feelings that you want. I think that's feelings that you want. I think that's feelings that you want. I think that's really, really powerful. really, really powerful. really, really powerful. >> Can you can you rewind to when you >> Can you can you rewind to when you >> Can you can you rewind to when you didn't do this first thing in the didn't do this first thing in the didn't do this first thing in the morning? you know what how did your day morning? you know what how did your day morning? you know what how did your day go then compared to how does your day go go then compared to how does your day go go then compared to how does your day go now? And do you also remember was there now? And do you also remember was there now? And do you also remember was there a specific bit of research that when you a specific bit of research that when you a specific bit of research that when you did it or read it you thought wait a did it or read it you thought wait a did it or read it you thought wait a minute I've got to change something. minute I've got to change something. minute I've got to change something. >> Yes. Yes to both. Okay. So here's how it >> Yes. Yes to both. Okay. So here's how it >> Yes. Yes to both. Okay. So here's how it goes when you don't um do that that goes when you don't um do that that goes when you don't um do that that movement. Don't put that movement in movement. Don't put that movement in movement. Don't put that movement in your day. And this was a lived your day. And this was a lived your day. And this was a lived experience. It was I was going through a experience. It was I was going through a experience. It was I was going through a really really stressful part of my really really stressful part of my really really stressful part of my career which is trying to get tenure at career which is trying to get tenure at career which is trying to get tenure at an American university. They give you an American university. They give you an American university. They give you six years and they say okay you have six six years and they say okay you have six six years and they say okay you have six years to make your name and if you don't years to make your name and if you don't years to make your name and if you don't do it we're going to fire you and if you do it we're going to fire you and if you do it we're going to fire you and if you are going to do it then then we will are going to do it then then we will are going to do it then then we will embrace you for the rest of your career embrace you for the rest of your career embrace you for the rest of your career and we can't fire you. So you know no and we can't fire you. So you know no and we can't fire you. So you know no big deal like and so you have six years big deal like and so you have six years big deal like and so you have six years to do this and so what did I do? My to do this and so what did I do? My to do this and so what did I do? My wonderful strategy was to only work. I'm wonderful strategy was to only work. I'm wonderful strategy was to only work. I'm just going to work. I'm going to uh just just going to work. I'm going to uh just just going to work. I'm going to uh just go into the lab and I'm I'm going to, go into the lab and I'm I'm going to, go into the lab and I'm I'm going to, you know, relinquish my my social life you know, relinquish my my social life you know, relinquish my my social life and I'm just going to work and I'm going and I'm just going to work and I'm going and I'm just going to work and I'm going to eat all the wonderful takeout in New to eat all the wonderful takeout in New to eat all the wonderful takeout in New York City because that's so fast and York City because that's so fast and York City because that's so fast and efficient and it's delicious um with efficient and it's delicious um with efficient and it's delicious um with lots of calories. And so I'm going to do lots of calories. And so I'm going to do lots of calories. And so I'm going to do that, too. And so I um I got stuff done that, too. And so I um I got stuff done that, too. And so I um I got stuff done definitely, but I had no social life. I definitely, but I had no social life. I definitely, but I had no social life. I found myself uh um with much more weight found myself uh um with much more weight found myself uh um with much more weight than than I I uh was used to because I than than I I uh was used to because I than than I I uh was used to because I wasn't moving at all. And mainly I was wasn't moving at all. And mainly I was wasn't moving at all. And mainly I was unhappy. I was I was just unhappy. I was unhappy. I was I was just unhappy. I was unhappy. I was I was just unhappy. I was doing I was working really hard but very doing I was working really hard but very doing I was working really hard but very very unhappy. And uh my wakeup call came very unhappy. And uh my wakeup call came very unhappy. And uh my wakeup call came when I gave myself a vacation but uh when I gave myself a vacation but uh when I gave myself a vacation but uh because I had no friends because I had because I had no friends because I had because I had no friends because I had no social life. I went by myself. I went no social life. I went by myself. I went no social life. I went by myself. I went on a river rafting trip to Peru. So, I on a river rafting trip to Peru. So, I on a river rafting trip to Peru. So, I was trying to get as far away from New was trying to get as far away from New was trying to get as far away from New York City as I could. So, I went by York City as I could. So, I went by York City as I could. So, I went by myself on one of these group, you know, myself on one of these group, you know, myself on one of these group, you know, river rafting trips. And it was so much river rafting trips. And it was so much river rafting trips. And it was so much fun, so beautiful walking around um Inca fun, so beautiful walking around um Inca fun, so beautiful walking around um Inca ruins. But I realized I was the weakest ruins. But I realized I was the weakest ruins. But I realized I was the weakest one on this whole trip. There were one on this whole trip. There were one on this whole trip. There were 65year-old 65year-old 65year-old triathletes that were so strong and triathletes that were so strong and triathletes that were so strong and there were 16 year olds that came with there were 16 year olds that came with there were 16 year olds that came with their father that were also stronger their father that were also stronger their father that were also stronger than me. And so I came back saying, than me. And so I came back saying, than me. And so I came back saying, "Okay, I I got a little bit of outdoors. "Okay, I I got a little bit of outdoors. "Okay, I I got a little bit of outdoors. I felt so good after this. I need to go I felt so good after this. I need to go I felt so good after this. I need to go to the gym and get a little bit more to the gym and get a little bit more to the gym and get a little bit more movement in my life." And it was really movement in my life." And it was really movement in my life." And it was really that that was my that was my realization that that was my that was my realization that that was my that was my realization when I started going to the gym. And I when I started going to the gym. And I when I started going to the gym. And I remember the very first class I took was remember the very first class I took was remember the very first class I took was a hip-hop dance class. Oh my god, I'm a hip-hop dance class. Oh my god, I'm a hip-hop dance class. Oh my god, I'm really bad at hip-hop dancing. And but really bad at hip-hop dancing. And but really bad at hip-hop dancing. And but it was very very um it it it really it was very very um it it it really it was very very um it it it really pushed my limits and I remember coming pushed my limits and I remember coming pushed my limits and I remember coming out of there going, "Oh my god, I hope out of there going, "Oh my god, I hope out of there going, "Oh my god, I hope nobody, you know, took any pictures or nobody, you know, took any pictures or nobody, you know, took any pictures or anything, but but really got my aerobic, anything, but but really got my aerobic, anything, but but really got my aerobic, you know, uh uh activity up." And I you know, uh uh activity up." And I you know, uh uh activity up." And I still felt good. Even though I felt like still felt good. Even though I felt like still felt good. Even though I felt like a terrible hip-hop dancer, I still felt a terrible hip-hop dancer, I still felt a terrible hip-hop dancer, I still felt great. And um that is what made me go great. And um that is what made me go great. And um that is what made me go back to the literature when I started back to the literature when I started back to the literature when I started feeling so much better after after this. feeling so much better after after this. feeling so much better after after this. So much better than than a month before So much better than than a month before So much better than than a month before when I was only working 100% of the when I was only working 100% of the when I was only working 100% of the time. That's when I went back and looked time. That's when I went back and looked time. That's when I went back and looked at all of the research showing that at all of the research showing that at all of the research showing that movement changes your mood. Movement, movement changes your mood. Movement, movement changes your mood. Movement, regular movement can be as effective as regular movement can be as effective as regular movement can be as effective as some of the most commonly used some of the most commonly used some of the most commonly used anti-depressants. And while I wasn't anti-depressants. And while I wasn't anti-depressants. And while I wasn't depressed, I wasn't happy. I was not a depressed, I wasn't happy. I was not a depressed, I wasn't happy. I was not a happy person in my life and I felt happy person in my life and I felt happy person in my life and I felt myself shifting out of that first with myself shifting out of that first with myself shifting out of that first with this trip to Peru but then with that this trip to Peru but then with that this trip to Peru but then with that regular bringing movement into my life. regular bringing movement into my life. regular bringing movement into my life. So it was kind of a a self-realization So it was kind of a a self-realization So it was kind of a a self-realization kind of backed up by the neuroscience kind of backed up by the neuroscience kind of backed up by the neuroscience that I I was able to go back and and that I I was able to go back and and that I I was able to go back and and research because I happen to be a research because I happen to be a research because I happen to be a neuroscientist. neuroscientist. neuroscientist. >> Yeah. I mean that's so interesting. Um >> Yeah. I mean that's so interesting. Um >> Yeah. I mean that's so interesting. Um that hip hop dance class sounds like a that hip hop dance class sounds like a that hip hop dance class sounds like a lot of fun. Do you still do that at the lot of fun. Do you still do that at the lot of fun. Do you still do that at the moment? moment? moment? >> I do. I well um I during the pandemic I >> I do. I well um I during the pandemic I >> I do. I well um I during the pandemic I switched to um video workouts at home. switched to um video workouts at home. switched to um video workouts at home. So now I do it do it at home and I don't So now I do it do it at home and I don't So now I do it do it at home and I don't know it's not as fun to do uh hip-hop know it's not as fun to do uh hip-hop know it's not as fun to do uh hip-hop dance on video. So occasionally I'll go dance on video. So occasionally I'll go dance on video. So occasionally I'll go out and take a class class now. But out and take a class class now. But out and take a class class now. But yeah, I got much better at dance after yeah, I got much better at dance after yeah, I got much better at dance after after that very first not not so much after that very first not not so much after that very first not not so much hip-hop and that's still not my my hip-hop and that's still not my my hip-hop and that's still not my my forte. But forte. But forte. But >> you know it's it's about playing and and >> you know it's it's about playing and and >> you know it's it's about playing and and for me it was about discovering. Turns for me it was about discovering. Turns for me it was about discovering. Turns out I I love kickboxing. And when I say out I I love kickboxing. And when I say out I I love kickboxing. And when I say that, you know, people go, "Oh, you that, you know, people go, "Oh, you that, you know, people go, "Oh, you know, don't get Wendy mad." But it's know, don't get Wendy mad." But it's know, don't get Wendy mad." But it's about the rhythm and the power moves about the rhythm and the power moves about the rhythm and the power moves that you're doing in kickboxing that that you're doing in kickboxing that that you're doing in kickboxing that really I love. really I love. really I love. >> Yeah. What's interesting for me is that >> Yeah. What's interesting for me is that >> Yeah. What's interesting for me is that you went on this vacation from your life you went on this vacation from your life you went on this vacation from your life >> and that inspired you to get moving. you >> and that inspired you to get moving. you >> and that inspired you to get moving. you start moving and you feel these kind of start moving and you feel these kind of start moving and you feel these kind of emotions that you have never felt before emotions that you have never felt before emotions that you have never felt before and that then encourages you because and that then encourages you because and that then encourages you because you're a neuroscientist to go and study. you're a neuroscientist to go and study. you're a neuroscientist to go and study. But presumably presumably before you'd But presumably presumably before you'd But presumably presumably before you'd experienced that, you were probably experienced that, you were probably experienced that, you were probably aware I'm guessing that movement's kind aware I'm guessing that movement's kind aware I'm guessing that movement's kind of good for the body. It's kind of good of good for the body. It's kind of good of good for the body. It's kind of good for the mind. But you know what I guess for the mind. But you know what I guess for the mind. But you know what I guess where I'm getting to with this is that where I'm getting to with this is that where I'm getting to with this is that >> a lot of us know things. We've read it >> a lot of us know things. We've read it >> a lot of us know things. We've read it in the media. We've heard it on in the media. We've heard it on in the media. We've heard it on podcasts. But we can know stuff, but it podcasts. But we can know stuff, but it podcasts. But we can know stuff, but it doesn't land in our brain. So we take doesn't land in our brain. So we take doesn't land in our brain. So we take action. And so it's really interesting action. And so it's really interesting action. And so it's really interesting for me that you had to even with all for me that you had to even with all for me that you had to even with all your prestigious training and your your prestigious training and your your prestigious training and your prestigious position as a professor, you prestigious position as a professor, you prestigious position as a professor, you had to feel it first. And that feeling, had to feel it first. And that feeling, had to feel it first. And that feeling, that experience is what led you to that experience is what led you to that experience is what led you to actually do more research. actually do more research. actually do more research. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's easy to understand. I mean, if we ask easy to understand. I mean, if we ask easy to understand. I mean, if we ask are all MDs peak health? Are they all are all MDs peak health? Are they all are all MDs peak health? Are they all exercising and eating to the best you exercising and eating to the best you exercising and eating to the best you know that science tells us? Clearly, know that science tells us? Clearly, know that science tells us? Clearly, with all due respect to my MD with all due respect to my MD with all due respect to my MD colleagues, the answer is no. And colleagues, the answer is no. And colleagues, the answer is no. And certainly the answer is no. For certainly the answer is no. For certainly the answer is no. For neuroscientists, exercise physiologists, neuroscientists, exercise physiologists, neuroscientists, exercise physiologists, uh sometimes it takes a a a wakeup call. uh sometimes it takes a a a wakeup call. uh sometimes it takes a a a wakeup call. And um I have to share for the uh And um I have to share for the uh And um I have to share for the uh scientists uh listening today the other scientists uh listening today the other scientists uh listening today the other wakeup call that came in this was this wakeup call that came in this was this wakeup call that came in this was this was I don't know a year and a half in was I don't know a year and a half in was I don't know a year and a half in and I'm feeling good you know clearly and I'm feeling good you know clearly and I'm feeling good you know clearly lots more energy but the thing that lots more energy but the thing that lots more energy but the thing that really um made me so interested that I really um made me so interested that I really um made me so interested that I actually shifted my research from study actually shifted my research from study actually shifted my research from study of memory which is how I started my of memory which is how I started my of memory which is how I started my research career to starting to research career to starting to research career to starting to explicitly study the effects of exercise explicitly study the effects of exercise explicitly study the effects of exercise is I'll always remember I was sitting in is I'll always remember I was sitting in is I'll always remember I was sitting in my office and I was writing a grant and my office and I was writing a grant and my office and I was writing a grant and so all the scientists out there know how so all the scientists out there know how so all the scientists out there know how how excruciating it is to write a grant. how excruciating it is to write a grant. how excruciating it is to write a grant. This is your life blood, right? This This is your life blood, right? This This is your life blood, right? This says whether you're going to be uh uh says whether you're going to be uh uh says whether you're going to be uh uh validated by your peers or you know you validated by your peers or you know you validated by your peers or you know you you're you're not going to be do be able you're you're not going to be do be able you're you're not going to be do be able to do the science that you want. And I to do the science that you want. And I to do the science that you want. And I had this thought that came through my had this thought that came through my had this thought that came through my mind while I was writing this particular mind while I was writing this particular mind while I was writing this particular day in my office. And that thought was, day in my office. And that thought was, day in my office. And that thought was, gee, writing went well today. I had gee, writing went well today. I had gee, writing went well today. I had never had that thought ever in my entire never had that thought ever in my entire never had that thought ever in my entire career. career. career. >> Are you tired of waking up exhausted, >> Are you tired of waking up exhausted, >> Are you tired of waking up exhausted, even when you've technically had enough even when you've technically had enough even when you've technically had enough sleep? Do you feel like you're sleep? Do you feel like you're sleep? Do you feel like you're constantly doing everything right, yet constantly doing everything right, yet constantly doing everything right, yet you still feel stuck? You're not broken. you still feel stuck? You're not broken. you still feel stuck? You're not broken. You're just running the wrong habits. You're just running the wrong habits. You're just running the wrong habits. I've taken everything I've learned from I've taken everything I've learned from I've taken everything I've learned from helping thousands of patients and boiled helping thousands of patients and boiled helping thousands of patients and boiled it down into five tiny daily habits that it down into five tiny daily habits that it down into five tiny daily habits that can transform your life in just 30 days. can transform your life in just 30 days. can transform your life in just 30 days. No overwhelm, no pressure, just small No overwhelm, no pressure, just small No overwhelm, no pressure, just small shifts that reset your energy, mood, and shifts that reset your energy, mood, and shifts that reset your energy, mood, and mind. If you're ready to stop surviving mind. If you're ready to stop surviving mind. If you're ready to stop surviving and start feeling like yourself again, and start feeling like yourself again, and start feeling like yourself again, download my free guides now. Just click download my free guides now. Just click download my free guides now. Just click on the first link in the description box on the first link in the description box on the first link in the description box below or scan the QR code on screen. below or scan the QR code on screen. below or scan the QR code on screen. You've got absolutely nothing to lose You've got absolutely nothing to lose You've got absolutely nothing to lose except the version of you that's been except the version of you that's been except the version of you that's been running on empty for far too long. running on empty for far too long. running on empty for far too long. It was And then I thought, well, I'm It was And then I thought, well, I'm It was And then I thought, well, I'm just having a good day. I'm feeling just having a good day. I'm feeling just having a good day. I'm feeling really good. I did go to the gym uh that really good. I did go to the gym uh that really good. I did go to the gym uh that day, but no, I realized that my my day, but no, I realized that my my day, but no, I realized that my my writing had gotten better, like it was writing had gotten better, like it was writing had gotten better, like it was flowing better. So that's when I flowing better. So that's when I flowing better. So that's when I realized that the only thing at this realized that the only thing at this realized that the only thing at this point that I had changed in my life was point that I had changed in my life was point that I had changed in my life was this exercise. It was a year and a half this exercise. It was a year and a half this exercise. It was a year and a half in. I'd gone through, you know, no in. I'd gone through, you know, no in. I'd gone through, you know, no movement to regular movement. And uh movement to regular movement. And uh movement to regular movement. And uh going back to the literature, I know it going back to the literature, I know it going back to the literature, I know it helps uh the functions of the helps uh the functions of the helps uh the functions of the hippocampus. Important for memory, which hippocampus. Important for memory, which hippocampus. Important for memory, which you need when you're writing a grant, you need when you're writing a grant, you need when you're writing a grant, all those details of all the papers that all those details of all the papers that all those details of all the papers that you have to put together in your you have to put together in your you have to put together in your multi-million dollar grant proposal and multi-million dollar grant proposal and multi-million dollar grant proposal and focus to write. You need deep continuous focus to write. You need deep continuous focus to write. You need deep continuous focus. I'm like, both of those things focus. I'm like, both of those things focus. I'm like, both of those things are better. That I think appears to be are better. That I think appears to be are better. That I think appears to be why my writing is getting better. So why my writing is getting better. So why my writing is getting better. So that was like that hit home that your that was like that hit home that your that was like that hit home that your lifeblood. You're doing it better and it lifeblood. You're doing it better and it lifeblood. You're doing it better and it seems like all these functions are are seems like all these functions are are seems like all these functions are are coming because you're exercising. Wow. coming because you're exercising. Wow. coming because you're exercising. Wow. That that is life-changing. Yeah. That That that is life-changing. Yeah. That That that is life-changing. Yeah. That was life-changing moment. was life-changing moment. was life-changing moment. >> Yeah. It's so interesting that you know >> Yeah. It's so interesting that you know >> Yeah. It's so interesting that you know reflecting on what you've been saying so reflecting on what you've been saying so reflecting on what you've been saying so far, Wendy, far, Wendy, far, Wendy, it's fascinating to me that you were at it's fascinating to me that you were at it's fascinating to me that you were at least from the outside crushing life, least from the outside crushing life, least from the outside crushing life, right? You were successful. You're right? You were successful. You're right? You were successful. You're living in New York City. you are being living in New York City. you are being living in New York City. you are being made professor, you know, you're doing made professor, you know, you're doing made professor, you know, you're doing great research, you're teaching people, great research, you're teaching people, great research, you're teaching people, you're being invited for TED talks, you you're being invited for TED talks, you you're being invited for TED talks, you know, the sort of thing that a lot of know, the sort of thing that a lot of know, the sort of thing that a lot of people would regard as, hey, that's what people would regard as, hey, that's what people would regard as, hey, that's what I want. You know, that's the sign of I want. You know, that's the sign of I want. You know, that's the sign of someone who's successful. Yet, you've someone who's successful. Yet, you've someone who's successful. Yet, you've also said at the same time, you were also said at the same time, you were also said at the same time, you were productive, you were successful, but you productive, you were successful, but you productive, you were successful, but you weren't happy. weren't happy. weren't happy. >> Right? I wasn't happy. >> Right? I wasn't happy. >> Right? I wasn't happy. >> That that's really interesting because I >> That that's really interesting because I >> That that's really interesting because I think there'll be a lot of people who think there'll be a lot of people who think there'll be a lot of people who can resonate with that. they are doing can resonate with that. they are doing can resonate with that. they are doing the things that you know they they think the things that you know they they think the things that you know they they think they need to do that society has told they need to do that society has told they need to do that society has told them they need to do and and it sounds them they need to do and and it sounds them they need to do and and it sounds like you were you know you well yeah you like you were you know you well yeah you like you were you know you well yeah you were you weren't just surviving you know were you weren't just surviving you know were you weren't just surviving you know in your work you were thriving but in in your work you were thriving but in in your work you were thriving but in your in your personal life I know from your in your personal life I know from your in your personal life I know from from your first book healthy brain happy from your first book healthy brain happy from your first book healthy brain happy life you've been very very open in that life you've been very very open in that life you've been very very open in that book about the struggles you had with book about the struggles you had with book about the struggles you had with relationships and actually the fact that relationships and actually the fact that relationships and actually the fact that you never spent any time prioritizing you never spent any time prioritizing you never spent any time prioritizing ing those relationships. And it's it's ing those relationships. And it's it's ing those relationships. And it's it's fascinating to me that just that one fascinating to me that just that one fascinating to me that just that one change movement which you now put into change movement which you now put into change movement which you now put into your morning routine your morning routine your morning routine >> is having all these kind of myriad >> is having all these kind of myriad >> is having all these kind of myriad benefits. benefits. benefits. >> It is it and it's really interesting to >> It is it and it's really interesting to >> It is it and it's really interesting to analyze my own career kind of before and analyze my own career kind of before and analyze my own career kind of before and after this realization particularly on after this realization particularly on after this realization particularly on the topic of creativity. So I was a very the topic of creativity. So I was a very the topic of creativity. So I was a very by the book scientist before this this by the book scientist before this this by the book scientist before this this realization. I I I I did my realization. I I I I did my realization. I I I I did my undergraduate, I went to graduate undergraduate, I went to graduate undergraduate, I went to graduate school, I got my PhD, I did a posttock school, I got my PhD, I did a posttock school, I got my PhD, I did a posttock and then I got I got a faculty position. and then I got I got a faculty position. and then I got I got a faculty position. So that that's all, you know, that's So that that's all, you know, that's So that that's all, you know, that's great. Uh uh that is successful and and great. Uh uh that is successful and and great. Uh uh that is successful and and I was thrilled to be here at NYU. Um but I was thrilled to be here at NYU. Um but I was thrilled to be here at NYU. Um but all always by the book. All my classes all always by the book. All my classes all always by the book. All my classes were by the book. But then uh and by the were by the book. But then uh and by the were by the book. But then uh and by the way I want to clarify the TED talks came way I want to clarify the TED talks came way I want to clarify the TED talks came after the transition. I was not giving after the transition. I was not giving after the transition. I was not giving TED talks that was part of the TED talks that was part of the TED talks that was part of the creativity. Um so so then this creativity. Um so so then this creativity. Um so so then this transformation happens. I realized that transformation happens. I realized that transformation happens. I realized that I was unhappy. I ended up going to the I was unhappy. I ended up going to the I was unhappy. I ended up going to the gym because of this uh Peru trip. And um gym because of this uh Peru trip. And um gym because of this uh Peru trip. And um one of the interesting things is that uh one of the interesting things is that uh one of the interesting things is that uh I I think um everybody's motivation part I I think um everybody's motivation part I I think um everybody's motivation part of everybody's motivation to move more of everybody's motivation to move more of everybody's motivation to move more regularly besides that bubble ba bath of regularly besides that bubble ba bath of regularly besides that bubble ba bath of neurochemicals that I told you about is neurochemicals that I told you about is neurochemicals that I told you about is that one of the things that we know that that one of the things that we know that that one of the things that we know that exercise does is it releases a whole exercise does is it releases a whole exercise does is it releases a whole bunch of growth factors in the brain and bunch of growth factors in the brain and bunch of growth factors in the brain and that goes directly to your hippocampus that goes directly to your hippocampus that goes directly to your hippocampus which is important for memory and which is important for memory and which is important for memory and literally helps new brain cells grow. So literally helps new brain cells grow. So literally helps new brain cells grow. So if you want shiny new brain cells in the if you want shiny new brain cells in the if you want shiny new brain cells in the part of your brain critical for part of your brain critical for part of your brain critical for long-term memory, that is your long-term memory, that is your long-term memory, that is your motivation to exercise. That is my motivation to exercise. That is my motivation to exercise. That is my personal motivation to exercise. But it personal motivation to exercise. But it personal motivation to exercise. But it turns out that the hippocampus doesn't turns out that the hippocampus doesn't turns out that the hippocampus doesn't only help us with memory. But it helps only help us with memory. But it helps only help us with memory. But it helps us put information in our memories us put information in our memories us put information in our memories together in new ways. In other words, together in new ways. In other words, together in new ways. In other words, it's important for imagination. it's important for imagination. it's important for imagination. And if you look at my teaching and my And if you look at my teaching and my And if you look at my teaching and my work and my career before and after work and my career before and after work and my career before and after this, what you'll see is after I started this, what you'll see is after I started this, what you'll see is after I started uh working out, what did I do? I created uh working out, what did I do? I created uh working out, what did I do? I created new courses like can exercise change new courses like can exercise change new courses like can exercise change your brain where I brought physical your brain where I brought physical your brain where I brought physical activity into the classroom. I literally activity into the classroom. I literally activity into the classroom. I literally got trained as an exercise instructor. got trained as an exercise instructor. got trained as an exercise instructor. So I could make the whole class work out So I could make the whole class work out So I could make the whole class work out with me before the class. And actually with me before the class. And actually with me before the class. And actually that's because uh my department wouldn't that's because uh my department wouldn't that's because uh my department wouldn't pay for an exercise instructor. I was pay for an exercise instructor. I was pay for an exercise instructor. I was like, "Can you can you hire an exercise like, "Can you can you hire an exercise like, "Can you can you hire an exercise instructor for me?" And they're like, instructor for me?" And they're like, instructor for me?" And they're like, "No, you you teach the class." So, I "No, you you teach the class." So, I "No, you you teach the class." So, I went and I got trained as an exercise went and I got trained as an exercise went and I got trained as an exercise instructor because I was going to the instructor because I was going to the instructor because I was going to the gym all the time anyway. gym all the time anyway. gym all the time anyway. Did that. I made them that class my very Did that. I made them that class my very Did that. I made them that class my very first kind of clinical study. Uh, so I first kind of clinical study. Uh, so I first kind of clinical study. Uh, so I tested them before and after this tested them before and after this tested them before and after this semester of every week we would exercise semester of every week we would exercise semester of every week we would exercise together for an hour and I compared them together for an hour and I compared them together for an hour and I compared them to another class that didn't didn't to another class that didn't didn't to another class that didn't didn't exercise. I created uh art meets brain exercise. I created uh art meets brain exercise. I created uh art meets brain where I brought in all of my new friends where I brought in all of my new friends where I brought in all of my new friends that I made that were artists and um that I made that were artists and um that I made that were artists and um dancers talked about their craft and dancers talked about their craft and dancers talked about their craft and then we talked about the neuroscience of then we talked about the neuroscience of then we talked about the neuroscience of movement. I had a um a worldclass chist movement. I had a um a worldclass chist movement. I had a um a worldclass chist come in uh and and go through the come in uh and and go through the come in uh and and go through the process of learning a new piece and then process of learning a new piece and then process of learning a new piece and then I talked about uh again a different I talked about uh again a different I talked about uh again a different version of motor learning. Um, so all version of motor learning. Um, so all version of motor learning. Um, so all sorts of artists and and I just had the sorts of artists and and I just had the sorts of artists and and I just had the time of my life and that's when I was time of my life and that's when I was time of my life and that's when I was creating my TED talks and and um kind of creating my TED talks and and um kind of creating my TED talks and and um kind of going outside of the classroom because I going outside of the classroom because I going outside of the classroom because I realized oh my god this this information realized oh my god this this information realized oh my god this this information is so important and while I love is so important and while I love is so important and while I love lecturing to my um you know 120 students lecturing to my um you know 120 students lecturing to my um you know 120 students that I teach in my in the regular class that I teach in my in the regular class that I teach in my in the regular class that I teach um everybody should know that I teach um everybody should know that I teach um everybody should know about this and so that's that's why I about this and so that's that's why I about this and so that's that's why I wrote the first book healthy brain happy wrote the first book healthy brain happy wrote the first book healthy brain happy life and that's what got me the TED life and that's what got me the TED life and that's what got me the TED Yeah, it's it's so inspiring to hear Yeah, it's it's so inspiring to hear Yeah, it's it's so inspiring to hear about your story. You know, I love your about your story. You know, I love your about your story. You know, I love your energy and your passion to I guess energy and your passion to I guess energy and your passion to I guess hammer home that you know, this message hammer home that you know, this message hammer home that you know, this message that we've been hearing since we were that we've been hearing since we were that we've been hearing since we were kids that physical activity is important kids that physical activity is important kids that physical activity is important for our physical health, which I think for our physical health, which I think for our physical health, which I think we've all heard over and over again. we've all heard over and over again. we've all heard over and over again. >> Yeah. your research and you know >> Yeah. your research and you know >> Yeah. your research and you know certainly your first book I think in certainly your first book I think in certainly your first book I think in many ways is just it's expanding out our many ways is just it's expanding out our many ways is just it's expanding out our view of physical activity going no it's view of physical activity going no it's view of physical activity going no it's not just for your physical health it not just for your physical health it not just for your physical health it makes you a better human right it makes makes you a better human right it makes makes you a better human right it makes you more creative more productive makes you more creative more productive makes you more creative more productive makes you happier and more motivation helps you happier and more motivation helps you happier and more motivation helps you with memory all these things I think you with memory all these things I think you with memory all these things I think it's absolutely fantastic one point I it's absolutely fantastic one point I it's absolutely fantastic one point I just want to clarify I know just want to clarify I know just want to clarify I know >> you do 30 minutes every morning okay and >> you do 30 minutes every morning okay and >> you do 30 minutes every morning okay and >> some People will hear that and go, >> some People will hear that and go, >> some People will hear that and go, >> I can't do it in the morning, Wendy. You >> I can't do it in the morning, Wendy. You >> I can't do it in the morning, Wendy. You know, um I I've got I've got kids. I'm know, um I I've got I've got kids. I'm know, um I I've got I've got kids. I'm busy. I don't think I can fit that in. busy. I don't think I can fit that in. busy. I don't think I can fit that in. So, the first point there was, So, the first point there was, So, the first point there was, >> is the time of day important? But >> is the time of day important? But >> is the time of day important? But related to that, related to that, related to that, >> I know in uh healthy brain happy life >> I know in uh healthy brain happy life >> I know in uh healthy brain happy life there's lots of talk of 4minut hacks, there's lots of talk of 4minut hacks, there's lots of talk of 4minut hacks, right? right? right? >> So, the second part of that question is >> So, the second part of that question is >> So, the second part of that question is four minutes. What's so great about four four minutes. What's so great about four four minutes. What's so great about four minutes? minutes? minutes? >> Yeah, so four minutes was really chosen. >> Yeah, so four minutes was really chosen. >> Yeah, so four minutes was really chosen. So at the end of every chapter in So at the end of every chapter in So at the end of every chapter in healthy brain happy life are different healthy brain happy life are different healthy brain happy life are different hacks that you can do uh focused on the hacks that you can do uh focused on the hacks that you can do uh focused on the topic that was in that chapter and we topic that was in that chapter and we topic that was in that chapter and we chose four minutes because it was doable chose four minutes because it was doable chose four minutes because it was doable and um it it frankly it was a doable and um it it frankly it was a doable and um it it frankly it was a doable time period. We didn't want to give you time period. We didn't want to give you time period. We didn't want to give you 30 minute activities because nobody 30 minute activities because nobody 30 minute activities because nobody would try it ever. Uh, and so all these would try it ever. Uh, and so all these would try it ever. Uh, and so all these things are fun things just to get people things are fun things just to get people things are fun things just to get people in the groove of meditation, in the in the groove of meditation, in the in the groove of meditation, in the groove of creativity, in the groove of groove of creativity, in the groove of groove of creativity, in the groove of of movement. And so, um, uh, but going of movement. And so, um, uh, but going of movement. And so, um, uh, but going back to, you know, what is that minimum back to, you know, what is that minimum back to, you know, what is that minimum or optimum exercise regimen? That's or optimum exercise regimen? That's or optimum exercise regimen? That's that's the most popular question that that's the most popular question that that's the most popular question that people always ask me. You know, really, people always ask me. You know, really, people always ask me. You know, really, how little movement do I really need to how little movement do I really need to how little movement do I really need to do to get all that good stuff that do to get all that good stuff that do to get all that good stuff that you've been talking about? And so um the you've been talking about? And so um the you've been talking about? And so um the answer to that is simple. If you want to answer to that is simple. If you want to answer to that is simple. If you want to get that good mood, we know that uh get that good mood, we know that uh get that good mood, we know that uh significant decreases in anxiety and significant decreases in anxiety and significant decreases in anxiety and depression levels um not clinical depression levels um not clinical depression levels um not clinical anxiety and depression just just our anxiety and depression just just our anxiety and depression just just our overall you know anxiety levels can come overall you know anxiety levels can come overall you know anxiety levels can come with just 10 minutes of walking that with just 10 minutes of walking that with just 10 minutes of walking that comes from the science. That is the kind comes from the science. That is the kind comes from the science. That is the kind of minimum amount that has been shown to of minimum amount that has been shown to of minimum amount that has been shown to have an effect. And I love usually I have an effect. And I love usually I have an effect. And I love usually I start with that because start with that because start with that because >> one of the most important pillars for >> one of the most important pillars for >> one of the most important pillars for our health is of course nutrition. But I our health is of course nutrition. But I our health is of course nutrition. But I think because of our busy stressed out think because of our busy stressed out think because of our busy stressed out lives, so many people are struggling lives, so many people are struggling lives, so many people are struggling despite their best intentions. So many despite their best intentions. So many despite their best intentions. So many patients over the years have told me patients over the years have told me patients over the years have told me that they know what they should be that they know what they should be that they know what they should be doing, but they're struggling to doing, but they're struggling to doing, but they're struggling to actually do it. And that's why I'm a fan actually do it. And that's why I'm a fan actually do it. And that's why I'm a fan of AG1. AG1 is a daily health trick that of AG1. AG1 is a daily health trick that of AG1. AG1 is a daily health trick that contains over 70 vitamins, minerals, and contains over 70 vitamins, minerals, and contains over 70 vitamins, minerals, and other ingredients that designed to make other ingredients that designed to make other ingredients that designed to make nutrition really easy. It's been in my nutrition really easy. It's been in my nutrition really easy. It's been in my own life for over 6 years now. It's own life for over 6 years now. It's own life for over 6 years now. It's simple, it's tasty, it's convenient, and simple, it's tasty, it's convenient, and simple, it's tasty, it's convenient, and it forms a part of my morning routine. it forms a part of my morning routine. it forms a part of my morning routine. People will routinely tell me that People will routinely tell me that People will routinely tell me that taking AG1 regularly has improved their taking AG1 regularly has improved their taking AG1 regularly has improved their focus, their cognition, their energy. focus, their cognition, their energy. focus, their cognition, their energy. Some people even tell me that they drink Some people even tell me that they drink Some people even tell me that they drink less coffee when they're taking AG1. And less coffee when they're taking AG1. And less coffee when they're taking AG1. And there's research out there showing us there's research out there showing us there's research out there showing us that taking AG1 regularly can improve that taking AG1 regularly can improve that taking AG1 regularly can improve specific markers of your gut health, specific markers of your gut health, specific markers of your gut health, which is really good for your immune which is really good for your immune which is really good for your immune health. So, if you're looking to upgrade health. So, if you're looking to upgrade health. So, if you're looking to upgrade your own nutrition in a simple, tasty, your own nutrition in a simple, tasty, your own nutrition in a simple, tasty, and convenient way, try AG1. To get a and convenient way, try AG1. To get a and convenient way, try AG1. To get a free bottle of vitamin D and five free free bottle of vitamin D and five free free bottle of vitamin D and five free travel pads, go to travel pads, go to travel pads, go to drinkag1.com/livemore. um 30 minutes can be a little bit um 30 minutes can be a little bit daunting and it does not have to be in daunting and it does not have to be in daunting and it does not have to be in the morning. That's when when I do it, I the morning. That's when when I do it, I the morning. That's when when I do it, I can do it. And so the first thing to say can do it. And so the first thing to say can do it. And so the first thing to say is that anytime you can bring movement is that anytime you can bring movement is that anytime you can bring movement into your life is the perfect time to do into your life is the perfect time to do into your life is the perfect time to do it. And you don't have to run a it. And you don't have to run a it. And you don't have to run a marathon. You don't have to go to those marathon. You don't have to go to those marathon. You don't have to go to those scary classes. Walking, starting with scary classes. Walking, starting with scary classes. Walking, starting with walking has a significant effect. walking has a significant effect. walking has a significant effect. specifically 10 minutes of walking can specifically 10 minutes of walking can specifically 10 minutes of walking can decrease those negative mood states and decrease those negative mood states and decrease those negative mood states and increase the positive mood states. So increase the positive mood states. So increase the positive mood states. So that's uh um I I always like to start that's uh um I I always like to start that's uh um I I always like to start with that that uh u doable uh uh message with that that uh u doable uh uh message with that that uh u doable uh uh message that really anybody can bring into their that really anybody can bring into their that really anybody can bring into their day. day. day. >> When people when my patients when >> When people when my patients when >> When people when my patients when members of the public are thinking about members of the public are thinking about members of the public are thinking about sleep, they're often thinking about the sleep, they're often thinking about the sleep, they're often thinking about the evening. They're thinking about what do evening. They're thinking about what do evening. They're thinking about what do I do just before bed? What do I do in I do just before bed? What do I do in I do just before bed? What do I do in those hours preceding me going to my those hours preceding me going to my those hours preceding me going to my bedroom? And of course that's important. bedroom? And of course that's important. bedroom? And of course that's important. We're definitely going to get to that. We're definitely going to get to that. We're definitely going to get to that. >> But I thought it would be useful >> But I thought it would be useful >> But I thought it would be useful particularly through the lens of the particularly through the lens of the particularly through the lens of the clock. I guess talk about the morning. clock. I guess talk about the morning. clock. I guess talk about the morning. Why is what we do first thing in the Why is what we do first thing in the Why is what we do first thing in the morning so important for our ability to morning so important for our ability to morning so important for our ability to sleep at night. sleep at night. sleep at night. >> Yeah. So we have this this circadian >> Yeah. So we have this this circadian >> Yeah. So we have this this circadian system, this sort of internal system, this sort of internal system, this sort of internal representation of a biological day. And representation of a biological day. And representation of a biological day. And what it does is anticipate the varied what it does is anticipate the varied what it does is anticipate the varied demands of the rest activity, the demands of the rest activity, the demands of the rest activity, the sleepwake cycle. Now for it to be of any sleepwake cycle. Now for it to be of any sleepwake cycle. Now for it to be of any use, the internal day needs to be set to use, the internal day needs to be set to use, the internal day needs to be set to the real day, the astronomical day. And the real day, the astronomical day. And the real day, the astronomical day. And the classic mismatch between biological the classic mismatch between biological the classic mismatch between biological time and environmental time is jet lag. time and environmental time is jet lag. time and environmental time is jet lag. And we eventually get over jet lag as a And we eventually get over jet lag as a And we eventually get over jet lag as a result of exposure to the the light dark result of exposure to the the light dark result of exposure to the the light dark cycle in the new time zone. But what we cycle in the new time zone. But what we cycle in the new time zone. But what we require in any time zone is daily require in any time zone is daily require in any time zone is daily exposure to the light dark cycle and exposure to the light dark cycle and exposure to the light dark cycle and particularly morning light for 90% of particularly morning light for 90% of particularly morning light for 90% of us. Most of us have either a long body us. Most of us have either a long body us. Most of us have either a long body clock or a body clock that's slightly clock or a body clock that's slightly clock or a body clock that's slightly longer. And so it will naturally drift a longer. And so it will naturally drift a longer. And so it will naturally drift a little bit later and later each day. And little bit later and later each day. And little bit later and later each day. And the effects of light are not the same. the effects of light are not the same. the effects of light are not the same. Morning light advances the clock makes Morning light advances the clock makes Morning light advances the clock makes it makes us get up earlier and go to bed it makes us get up earlier and go to bed it makes us get up earlier and go to bed earlier. Whereas dusk light delays the earlier. Whereas dusk light delays the earlier. Whereas dusk light delays the clock. It makes us go to bed later and clock. It makes us go to bed later and clock. It makes us go to bed later and get up later. And so what morning light get up later. And so what morning light get up later. And so what morning light does to us is take this drifting clock does to us is take this drifting clock does to us is take this drifting clock and shoves it forward a bit in time. So and shoves it forward a bit in time. So and shoves it forward a bit in time. So it's beautifully aligned. Now of course it's beautifully aligned. Now of course it's beautifully aligned. Now of course this is important at every level. I this is important at every level. I this is important at every level. I mean, we did a study a few years ago on mean, we did a study a few years ago on mean, we did a study a few years ago on on teenagers and we found that and and on teenagers and we found that and and on teenagers and we found that and and all over the world um and found that the all over the world um and found that the all over the world um and found that the later the chronotype, the eveningness later the chronotype, the eveningness later the chronotype, the eveningness versus morningness, uh the greater the versus morningness, uh the greater the versus morningness, uh the greater the evening light these young people got. So evening light these young people got. So evening light these young people got. So they were getting up after morning. Um they were getting up after morning. Um they were getting up after morning. Um so not getting the morning light which so not getting the morning light which so not getting the morning light which would advance the clock, but they were would advance the clock, but they were would advance the clock, but they were getting evening light which would delay getting evening light which would delay getting evening light which would delay the clock. So part of their their going the clock. So part of their their going the clock. So part of their their going to bed late and getting up late is when to bed late and getting up late is when to bed late and getting up late is when they were actually seeing light. And so they were actually seeing light. And so they were actually seeing light. And so morning light for most of us is really morning light for most of us is really morning light for most of us is really important to set the biological clock important to set the biological clock important to set the biological clock which then aligns all of our activity which then aligns all of our activity which then aligns all of our activity including the sleepwake cycle to the including the sleepwake cycle to the including the sleepwake cycle to the appropriate time of day. Yes. So this is appropriate time of day. Yes. So this is appropriate time of day. Yes. So this is fascinating. There's so much there. So fascinating. There's so much there. So fascinating. There's so much there. So we live according to 24-hour days. we live according to 24-hour days. we live according to 24-hour days. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. But one thing I'm aware of from your But one thing I'm aware of from your But one thing I'm aware of from your book and other research is that our book and other research is that our book and other research is that our internal clocks are not set to exactly internal clocks are not set to exactly internal clocks are not set to exactly 24 hours. So I want to 24 hours. So I want to 24 hours. So I want to >> I want to talk about that and why you >> I want to talk about that and why you >> I want to talk about that and why you think that might be because we certainly think that might be because we certainly think that might be because we certainly I guess didn't evolve for plane travel I guess didn't evolve for plane travel I guess didn't evolve for plane travel in the future. You do you know what I in the future. You do you know what I in the future. You do you know what I mean? So so so when we go on a 12-hour mean? So so so when we go on a 12-hour mean? So so so when we go on a 12-hour flight to LA from London, we could adapt flight to LA from London, we could adapt flight to LA from London, we could adapt straight away, right? So that presumably straight away, right? So that presumably straight away, right? So that presumably wasn't Evolution's goal. So I'm wasn't Evolution's goal. So I'm wasn't Evolution's goal. So I'm interested as to why it's not 24 hours interested as to why it's not 24 hours interested as to why it's not 24 hours in your view, but also you say morning in your view, but also you say morning in your view, but also you say morning light. So light. So light. So does it matter what time of morning does it matter what time of morning does it matter what time of morning light that is? You know, can people get light that is? You know, can people get light that is? You know, can people get it at lunchtime? Are we talking as soon it at lunchtime? Are we talking as soon it at lunchtime? Are we talking as soon as people wake up? And of course that as people wake up? And of course that as people wake up? And of course that changes in the seasons, right? So can changes in the seasons, right? So can changes in the seasons, right? So can you help us put all those things you help us put all those things you help us put all those things together? together? together? >> Okay. So why isn't the human body clock >> Okay. So why isn't the human body clock >> Okay. So why isn't the human body clock exactly 24 hours? Well, now here's some exactly 24 hours? Well, now here's some exactly 24 hours? Well, now here's some hand waving because the the modelers say hand waving because the the modelers say hand waving because the the modelers say that if you want two oscillators to that if you want two oscillators to that if you want two oscillators to align to each other, two rhythms. One is align to each other, two rhythms. One is align to each other, two rhythms. One is fixed. Obviously, the the rotation of fixed. Obviously, the the rotation of fixed. Obviously, the the rotation of the earth is fractionally under 24 the earth is fractionally under 24 the earth is fractionally under 24 hours. And if you want to fit a a body hours. And if you want to fit a a body hours. And if you want to fit a a body clock to that, it helps if it's slightly clock to that, it helps if it's slightly clock to that, it helps if it's slightly different from 24 hours because then it different from 24 hours because then it different from 24 hours because then it can align more easily. Now, I don't can align more easily. Now, I don't can align more easily. Now, I don't pretend to understand the mathematics pretend to understand the mathematics pretend to understand the mathematics behind it, but that's why why it is. But behind it, but that's why why it is. But behind it, but that's why why it is. But there's a there's an even there's a there's an even there's a there's an even >> so mother nature knew what she was doing >> so mother nature knew what she was doing >> so mother nature knew what she was doing as always. I mean but the really as always. I mean but the really as always. I mean but the really interesting question I think for me is interesting question I think for me is interesting question I think for me is why is there such diversity in the human why is there such diversity in the human why is there such diversity in the human chronotype? So the you know the fact chronotype? So the you know the fact chronotype? So the you know the fact that we have some people you know are that we have some people you know are that we have some people you know are really early ls and some people really really early ls and some people really really early ls and some people really late owls. There's a huge diversity you late owls. There's a huge diversity you late owls. There's a huge diversity you know to the extent that you can almost know to the extent that you can almost know to the extent that you can almost bed share in some extremes. Whereas if bed share in some extremes. Whereas if bed share in some extremes. Whereas if you look at the mice or any other animal you look at the mice or any other animal you look at the mice or any other animal you want to study, it's all very very you want to study, it's all very very you want to study, it's all very very similar. And I think this is something similar. And I think this is something similar. And I think this is something that that's puzzled me for ages. And it that that's puzzled me for ages. And it that that's puzzled me for ages. And it may well be that in our society, you may well be that in our society, you may well be that in our society, you know, and we've we've only moved very know, and we've we've only moved very know, and we've we've only moved very rapidly from sort of essentially small rapidly from sort of essentially small rapidly from sort of essentially small groups, tribes interacting. It may have groups, tribes interacting. It may have groups, tribes interacting. It may have been useful under those circumstances to been useful under those circumstances to been useful under those circumstances to have vigilance across the 24-hour day have vigilance across the 24-hour day have vigilance across the 24-hour day and having some people that were sort of and having some people that were sort of and having some people that were sort of awake early. um and could perhaps alert awake early. um and could perhaps alert awake early. um and could perhaps alert the group that there was danger from the group that there was danger from the group that there was danger from another tribe, for example, or or or another tribe, for example, or or or another tribe, for example, or or or some sort of animal. And that may be why some sort of animal. And that may be why some sort of animal. And that may be why we've retained this extraordinary we've retained this extraordinary we've retained this extraordinary diversity. It's very we're very weird as diversity. It's very we're very weird as diversity. It's very we're very weird as a species in that regard. a species in that regard. a species in that regard. >> Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense, >> Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense, >> Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? You mentioned the word doesn't it? You mentioned the word doesn't it? You mentioned the word chronotype. chronotype. chronotype. >> I wonder if you could just elaborate >> I wonder if you could just elaborate >> I wonder if you could just elaborate exactly what does chronotype mean. And exactly what does chronotype mean. And exactly what does chronotype mean. And then you also mentioned owls and larks. then you also mentioned owls and larks. then you also mentioned owls and larks. And I'm really interested in this And I'm really interested in this And I'm really interested in this because a me and my wife appear to have because a me and my wife appear to have because a me and my wife appear to have slightly different body clocks. But many slightly different body clocks. But many slightly different body clocks. But many people I feel certainly if I look at my people I feel certainly if I look at my people I feel certainly if I look at my clinical experience Russell clinical experience Russell clinical experience Russell and this also I think speaks to this and this also I think speaks to this and this also I think speaks to this idea that the body clock isn't quite 24 idea that the body clock isn't quite 24 idea that the body clock isn't quite 24 hours that we can manipulate it hours that we can manipulate it hours that we can manipulate it depending on what we need it to do or depending on what we need it to do or depending on what we need it to do or what the tribe needs or what the weather what the tribe needs or what the weather what the tribe needs or what the weather is. Right? A lot of the time I think is. Right? A lot of the time I think is. Right? A lot of the time I think well are evening types really evening well are evening types really evening well are evening types really evening types or are they evening types because types or are they evening types because types or are they evening types because of the modern light environment? of the modern light environment? of the modern light environment? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Um so yeah quite a lot there. >> Um so yeah quite a lot there. >> Um so yeah quite a lot there. >> Yeah. Okay. So so what defines your >> Yeah. Okay. So so what defines your >> Yeah. Okay. So so what defines your chronotype whether you're a morning chronotype whether you're a morning chronotype whether you're a morning person or an evening person and there person or an evening person and there person or an evening person and there are a number of factors. The first of are a number of factors. The first of are a number of factors. The first of all is one's genetics. We now know that all is one's genetics. We now know that all is one's genetics. We now know that the clock genes and the proteins that the clock genes and the proteins that the clock genes and the proteins that they make, subtle changes, subtle they make, subtle changes, subtle they make, subtle changes, subtle polymorphisms in those genes are polymorphisms in those genes are polymorphisms in those genes are associated with morningness and associated with morningness and associated with morningness and eveningness. So by their contribution to eveningness. So by their contribution to eveningness. So by their contribution to our genes, our parents are still telling our genes, our parents are still telling our genes, our parents are still telling us what time to get up and go to bed at us what time to get up and go to bed at us what time to get up and go to bed at at some level. So that's the first at some level. So that's the first at some level. So that's the first thing. Through development, our thing. Through development, our thing. Through development, our chronotype changes. So from about the chronotype changes. So from about the chronotype changes. So from about the age of 10, we want to start to go to bed age of 10, we want to start to go to bed age of 10, we want to start to go to bed a bit later and a bit later. uh lateness a bit later and a bit later. uh lateness a bit later and a bit later. uh lateness peaks in males at around about 21 21 and peaks in males at around about 21 21 and peaks in males at around about 21 21 and a half in females about 191 19 and a a half in females about 191 19 and a a half in females about 191 19 and a half and males peak later or they have a half and males peak later or they have a half and males peak later or they have a later chronotype than females. Then from later chronotype than females. Then from later chronotype than females. Then from those late teens early 20s we start to those late teens early 20s we start to those late teens early 20s we start to move to a more morning chronotype. So by move to a more morning chronotype. So by move to a more morning chronotype. So by the time we're in our late 50s early 60s the time we're in our late 50s early 60s the time we're in our late 50s early 60s we're getting up and going to bed on we're getting up and going to bed on we're getting up and going to bed on average when we got up and went to bed average when we got up and went to bed average when we got up and went to bed when we were 10. And that sort of when we were 10. And that sort of when we were 10. And that sort of basically maps the changes in some of basically maps the changes in some of basically maps the changes in some of the sex steroids, testosterone and the sex steroids, testosterone and the sex steroids, testosterone and estrogen. So it's thought that there's a estrogen. So it's thought that there's a estrogen. So it's thought that there's a a very important hormonal mod a very important hormonal mod a very important hormonal mod modification of of of of the clock. So modification of of of of the clock. So modification of of of of the clock. So that's within individuals. We've all got that's within individuals. We've all got that's within individuals. We've all got So whatever I'm born with, let's say I So whatever I'm born with, let's say I So whatever I'm born with, let's say I was born a morning type, and I think I'm was born a morning type, and I think I'm was born a morning type, and I think I'm a morning type. Then when I'm 10 in my a morning type. Then when I'm 10 in my a morning type. Then when I'm 10 in my teenage years, that's going to be teenage years, that's going to be teenage years, that's going to be pushed. It's going to be later and pushed. It's going to be later and pushed. It's going to be later and later. later. later. >> Yeah. as you say for most males a peak >> Yeah. as you say for most males a peak >> Yeah. as you say for most males a peak at 21 and then it's going to start going at 21 and then it's going to start going at 21 and then it's going to start going back again but what about between back again but what about between back again but what about between individuals there's variation there as individuals there's variation there as individuals there's variation there as well well well >> yeah a huge individual variation I think >> yeah a huge individual variation I think >> yeah a huge individual variation I think that's a really important point because that's a really important point because that's a really important point because you know in terms of our sleepweight you know in terms of our sleepweight you know in terms of our sleepweight patterns among our chronotype there's patterns among our chronotype there's patterns among our chronotype there's massive individual variation and and you massive individual variation and and you massive individual variation and and you know um there's a on average about a know um there's a on average about a know um there's a on average about a 2hour difference from somebody in their 2hour difference from somebody in their 2hour difference from somebody in their from in their late 50s early 60s is to from in their late 50s early 60s is to from in their late 50s early 60s is to somebody in their late teens. So asking somebody in their late teens. So asking somebody in their late teens. So asking a a teenager to get up at 7:00 in the a a teenager to get up at 7:00 in the a a teenager to get up at 7:00 in the morning is like asking a a 60-year-old morning is like asking a a 60-year-old morning is like asking a a 60-year-old to get up at 5:00 in the morning. Now, to get up at 5:00 in the morning. Now, to get up at 5:00 in the morning. Now, does that matter? I guess there's a real does that matter? I guess there's a real does that matter? I guess there's a real interest here for me given that my son's interest here for me given that my son's interest here for me given that my son's 12 and about to enter uh these teenage 12 and about to enter uh these teenage 12 and about to enter uh these teenage years. years. years. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And as a family, we prioritize sleep. >> And as a family, we prioritize sleep. >> And as a family, we prioritize sleep. Well, we certainly have done, but I'm Well, we certainly have done, but I'm Well, we certainly have done, but I'm I'm already noticing with him a change. I'm already noticing with him a change. I'm already noticing with him a change. >> Yep. in terms of his desire to do what >> Yep. in terms of his desire to do what >> Yep. in terms of his desire to do what he has done in the past. Let's put it he has done in the past. Let's put it he has done in the past. Let's put it like that. Okay. like that. Okay. like that. Okay. >> Yeah. I think they call it testosterone >> Yeah. I think they call it testosterone >> Yeah. I think they call it testosterone and poisoning, don't they? and poisoning, don't they? and poisoning, don't they? >> And what I'm interested is when we say >> And what I'm interested is when we say >> And what I'm interested is when we say teenagers want to go to bed later and teenagers want to go to bed later and teenagers want to go to bed later and wake up later wake up later wake up later and we think about their chronoype, and we think about their chronoype, and we think about their chronoype, what if that teenager still went to bed what if that teenager still went to bed what if that teenager still went to bed early? So, what's driving the change? Is early? So, what's driving the change? Is early? So, what's driving the change? Is it the fact that they're going to bed it the fact that they're going to bed it the fact that they're going to bed late, therefore they're having to stay late, therefore they're having to stay late, therefore they're having to stay in bed later? like could that be in bed later? like could that be in bed later? like could that be environmental school pressure that sort environmental school pressure that sort environmental school pressure that sort of stuff or do you know what I'm getting of stuff or do you know what I'm getting of stuff or do you know what I'm getting at? at? at? >> Absolutely. Well, well of course the the >> Absolutely. Well, well of course the the >> Absolutely. Well, well of course the the other factor the sort of as it were the other factor the sort of as it were the other factor the sort of as it were the the the biological factor would be when the the biological factor would be when the the biological factor would be when you see light as we as we just discussed you see light as we as we just discussed you see light as we as we just discussed sort of morning light advances the clock sort of morning light advances the clock sort of morning light advances the clock evening light delays the clock and evening light delays the clock and evening light delays the clock and teenagers particularly over the weekend teenagers particularly over the weekend teenagers particularly over the weekend will miss the morning light making them will miss the morning light making them will miss the morning light making them get up earlier but they get the evening get up earlier but they get the evening get up earlier but they get the evening light so they're or the afternoon light so they're or the afternoon light so they're or the afternoon evening light and so they'll go to bed evening light and so they'll go to bed evening light and so they'll go to bed later. So those are the three sort of later. So those are the three sort of later. So those are the three sort of biological factors. But then we have to biological factors. But then we have to biological factors. But then we have to add a couple of other things. One is of add a couple of other things. One is of add a couple of other things. One is of course the use of social media. Uh it's course the use of social media. Uh it's course the use of social media. Uh it's very interesting. Many teen teenagers very interesting. Many teen teenagers very interesting. Many teen teenagers appreciate that they shouldn't be using appreciate that they shouldn't be using appreciate that they shouldn't be using social media into the early hours of the social media into the early hours of the social media into the early hours of the morning. Uh but they feel uh that sense morning. Uh but they feel uh that sense morning. Uh but they feel uh that sense of being connected to their group of being connected to their group of being connected to their group overrides overrides overrides that knowledge about why it's important that knowledge about why it's important that knowledge about why it's important to be asleep. So there's that element to be asleep. So there's that element to be asleep. So there's that element and in fact it's really fascinating. and in fact it's really fascinating. and in fact it's really fascinating. Some studies have shown that that Some studies have shown that that Some studies have shown that that lateness can be hugely late. So what lateness can be hugely late. So what lateness can be hugely late. So what happens of course is that they have very happens of course is that they have very happens of course is that they have very shortened sleep. They're driven out of shortened sleep. They're driven out of shortened sleep. They're driven out of bed by an alarm clock or a parent. They bed by an alarm clock or a parent. They bed by an alarm clock or a parent. They struggle through the school day often struggle through the school day often struggle through the school day often and when you teach, you know, talk to and when you teach, you know, talk to and when you teach, you know, talk to many teachers, kids are actually falling many teachers, kids are actually falling many teachers, kids are actually falling asleep at the desks. So then they finish asleep at the desks. So then they finish asleep at the desks. So then they finish school and then they have not just a school and then they have not just a school and then they have not just a short nap, but it can be a nap of 2 short nap, but it can be a nap of 2 short nap, but it can be a nap of 2 hours or so, which then pushes back the hours or so, which then pushes back the hours or so, which then pushes back the pressure to sleep that night. pressure to sleep that night. pressure to sleep that night. >> And so so you know, the the the desire >> And so so you know, the the the desire >> And so so you know, the the the desire to use social media and the fact that to use social media and the fact that to use social media and the fact that they're not as tired because they had to they're not as tired because they had to they're not as tired because they had to sleep in the late afternoon means that sleep in the late afternoon means that sleep in the late afternoon means that they can function later um uh at night they can function later um uh at night they can function later um uh at night and they get that shortened sleep. And and they get that shortened sleep. And and they get that shortened sleep. And in fact, you have to be very careful in fact, you have to be very careful in fact, you have to be very careful because it can lead to increasingly because it can lead to increasingly because it can lead to increasingly shortened sleep at night and longer naps shortened sleep at night and longer naps shortened sleep at night and longer naps after school, which you know, and you after school, which you know, and you after school, which you know, and you can fall into this sort of feedback loop can fall into this sort of feedback loop can fall into this sort of feedback loop of really disrupting the sleep. If that of really disrupting the sleep. If that of really disrupting the sleep. If that teenager could teenager could teenager could go to sleep, let's say, on time, at a go to sleep, let's say, on time, at a go to sleep, let's say, on time, at a more suitable time, given what time they more suitable time, given what time they more suitable time, given what time they have to get up for school or the school have to get up for school or the school have to get up for school or the school bus or whatever that they're sort of bus or whatever that they're sort of bus or whatever that they're sort of fixing that they can't move, fixing that they can't move, fixing that they can't move, >> does the later chronotype >> does the later chronotype >> does the later chronotype still matter? still matter? still matter? I.e., if they shift their environment, I.e., if they shift their environment, I.e., if they shift their environment, so actually I'm still going I'm going to so actually I'm still going I'm going to so actually I'm still going I'm going to go to bed earlier. I'm not going to go to bed earlier. I'm not going to go to bed earlier. I'm not going to expose myself to evening lights. This expose myself to evening lights. This expose myself to evening lights. This may sound optimal and hypothetical as may sound optimal and hypothetical as may sound optimal and hypothetical as something that's practically impossible, something that's practically impossible, something that's practically impossible, but in theory, but in theory, but in theory, would that then normalize things, do you would that then normalize things, do you would that then normalize things, do you think? think? think? >> Yeah, you can shift teenagers to an >> Yeah, you can shift teenagers to an >> Yeah, you can shift teenagers to an earlier chronotype because of light earlier chronotype because of light earlier chronotype because of light exposure. Absolutely. Uh practically exposure. Absolutely. Uh practically exposure. Absolutely. Uh practically it's it's it's very difficult. Um but it's it's it's very difficult. Um but it's it's it's very difficult. Um but it's it's in theory possible. Yeah. And it's it's in theory possible. Yeah. And it's it's in theory possible. Yeah. And this light exposure whereas in the this light exposure whereas in the this light exposure whereas in the morning it advances the clock and in the morning it advances the clock and in the morning it advances the clock and in the evening it delays the clock so it pushes evening it delays the clock so it pushes evening it delays the clock so it pushes it back. What light exposure we talking it back. What light exposure we talking it back. What light exposure we talking about here? Because let's say in the about here? Because let's say in the about here? Because let's say in the evening or at dusk you saw natural evening or at dusk you saw natural evening or at dusk you saw natural lights not artificial light. Does that lights not artificial light. Does that lights not artificial light. Does that still do the same thing at pushing it still do the same thing at pushing it still do the same thing at pushing it back or does that have a different back or does that have a different back or does that have a different wavelength that doesn't affect us in the wavelength that doesn't affect us in the wavelength that doesn't affect us in the same way? Well, you you're you're sort same way? Well, you you're you're sort same way? Well, you you're you're sort of impinging upon what I' I've sort of of impinging upon what I' I've sort of of impinging upon what I' I've sort of been working on for a long time, which been working on for a long time, which been working on for a long time, which is how does how does light interact with is how does how does light interact with is how does how does light interact with the body clock? And the first sort of the body clock? And the first sort of the body clock? And the first sort of extraordinary finding was that the extraordinary finding was that the extraordinary finding was that the visual cells within the eye, the rods visual cells within the eye, the rods visual cells within the eye, the rods and the cones are not required to detect and the cones are not required to detect and the cones are not required to detect that dawn dusk cycle. there's a third that dawn dusk cycle. there's a third that dawn dusk cycle. there's a third photo receptor within the eye and and photo receptor within the eye and and photo receptor within the eye and and and those and we've been working out and those and we've been working out and those and we've been working out most recently how those receptors most recently how those receptors most recently how those receptors interact with this sort of master clock interact with this sort of master clock interact with this sort of master clock within the brain. So that's one thing. within the brain. So that's one thing. within the brain. So that's one thing. The second thing is that these photo The second thing is that these photo The second thing is that these photo receptors need quite a bit of light. So receptors need quite a bit of light. So receptors need quite a bit of light. So we don't really appreciate because our we don't really appreciate because our we don't really appreciate because our visual system is so good but we live our visual system is so good but we live our visual system is so good but we live our lives in dim dark caves. So, uh, shortly lives in dim dark caves. So, uh, shortly lives in dim dark caves. So, uh, shortly after dawn, um, natural light is some 50 after dawn, um, natural light is some 50 after dawn, um, natural light is some 50 to 100 times brighter than average to 100 times brighter than average to 100 times brighter than average domestic light conditions. Um, and and domestic light conditions. Um, and and domestic light conditions. Um, and and so really what the clock is looking for so really what the clock is looking for so really what the clock is looking for is a bright light signal. And so we're is a bright light signal. And so we're is a bright light signal. And so we're talking in the hundreds to thousands of talking in the hundreds to thousands of talking in the hundreds to thousands of lux range. So if you think of of natural lux range. So if you think of of natural lux range. So if you think of of natural light, okay, moonlight would be 0.01 light, okay, moonlight would be 0.01 light, okay, moonlight would be 0.01 lux. Um, and a bright sunny day even in lux. Um, and a bright sunny day even in lux. Um, and a bright sunny day even in the even in the UK can just about get up the even in the UK can just about get up the even in the UK can just about get up to a 100,000 lux. And those those weird to a 100,000 lux. And those those weird to a 100,000 lux. And those those weird amazing photo receptors need, as I say, amazing photo receptors need, as I say, amazing photo receptors need, as I say, this sort of 100 to,000 lux range. Now, this sort of 100 to,000 lux range. Now, this sort of 100 to,000 lux range. Now, it's complicated because it depends upon it's complicated because it depends upon it's complicated because it depends upon how long you're exposed to that light. how long you're exposed to that light. how long you're exposed to that light. So, you can compensate to some extent So, you can compensate to some extent So, you can compensate to some extent for a lower light intensity by for a lower light intensity by for a lower light intensity by increasing the duration. And it's worth increasing the duration. And it's worth increasing the duration. And it's worth bearing in mind until the late 80s it bearing in mind until the late 80s it bearing in mind until the late 80s it was thought that the human circadian was thought that the human circadian was thought that the human circadian clock was not regulated by light at all clock was not regulated by light at all clock was not regulated by light at all because when people use sort of because when people use sort of because when people use sort of relatively low levels of light that relatively low levels of light that relatively low levels of light that would shift the biological clock or would shift the biological clock or would shift the biological clock or entrain the biological clock of a mouse entrain the biological clock of a mouse entrain the biological clock of a mouse had no effect at all. had no effect at all. had no effect at all. >> This is in the 1980s right I read that >> This is in the 1980s right I read that >> This is in the 1980s right I read that this morning in your book and and that this morning in your book and and that this morning in your book and and that shocked me because shocked me because shocked me because >> 1987 right I was just finishing primary >> 1987 right I was just finishing primary >> 1987 right I was just finishing primary school. it it's not maybe it is but it school. it it's not maybe it is but it school. it it's not maybe it is but it doesn't seem that long ago to me and I doesn't seem that long ago to me and I doesn't seem that long ago to me and I thought when I read that I I had to thought when I read that I I had to thought when I read that I I had to reread it this idea that back then which reread it this idea that back then which reread it this idea that back then which wasn't that long ago we didn't think wasn't that long ago we didn't think wasn't that long ago we didn't think lights hugely influenced our circadian lights hugely influenced our circadian lights hugely influenced our circadian rhythm and now that's considered fact rhythm and now that's considered fact rhythm and now that's considered fact and I think well what else is going on and I think well what else is going on and I think well what else is going on that we don't know at the moment that we don't know at the moment that we don't know at the moment >> well that's what's so exciting about >> well that's what's so exciting about >> well that's what's so exciting about this field but I I remember you know this field but I I remember you know this field but I I remember you know doing doing my my PhD um and I I got my doing doing my my PhD um and I I got my doing doing my my PhD um and I I got my PhD in in in ' 84 and uh you know when PhD in in in ' 84 and uh you know when PhD in in in ' 84 and uh you know when you did public talks or anything people you did public talks or anything people you did public talks or anything people Well, well, how is it regulated? Oh, Well, well, how is it regulated? Oh, Well, well, how is it regulated? Oh, it's primarily social cues and food. And it's primarily social cues and food. And it's primarily social cues and food. And I remember being actually at that first I remember being actually at that first I remember being actually at that first presentation in in 1987. presentation in in 1987. presentation in in 1987. And you know, it was an audible gasp And you know, it was an audible gasp And you know, it was an audible gasp around me. Oh my god, you know, you just around me. Oh my god, you know, you just around me. Oh my god, you know, you just need a lot of light. And of course, now need a lot of light. And of course, now need a lot of light. And of course, now we know light is incredibly important we know light is incredibly important we know light is incredibly important for the regulation of human circadian for the regulation of human circadian for the regulation of human circadian rhythms, but you need quite a bit of it. rhythms, but you need quite a bit of it. rhythms, but you need quite a bit of it. And this is where we fall into some And this is where we fall into some And this is where we fall into some problems because there's a lot of stuff problems because there's a lot of stuff problems because there's a lot of stuff out there saying you shouldn't look at a out there saying you shouldn't look at a out there saying you shouldn't look at a at a Kindle immediately before you go to at a Kindle immediately before you go to at a Kindle immediately before you go to bed because it'll shift the biological bed because it'll shift the biological bed because it'll shift the biological clock. So the most detailed study which clock. So the most detailed study which clock. So the most detailed study which was from a group at Harvard asked people was from a group at Harvard asked people was from a group at Harvard asked people to look at a a Kindle on its brightest to look at a a Kindle on its brightest to look at a a Kindle on its brightest intensity 4 hours before bedtime. And intensity 4 hours before bedtime. And intensity 4 hours before bedtime. And they asked them to do this on five they asked them to do this on five they asked them to do this on five consecutive nights. And after that on consecutive nights. And after that on consecutive nights. And after that on the on the fifth day uh sleep was the on the fifth day uh sleep was the on the fifth day uh sleep was delayed by an average of 10 minutes and delayed by an average of 10 minutes and delayed by an average of 10 minutes and it was just statistical and as one of my it was just statistical and as one of my it was just statistical and as one of my colleagues said um well it may be colleagues said um well it may be colleagues said um well it may be statistically significant but it's statistically significant but it's statistically significant but it's biologically meaningless. biologically meaningless. biologically meaningless. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And so but we do know that light in the >> And so but we do know that light in the >> And so but we do know that light in the evening can delay the clock. But how evening can delay the clock. But how evening can delay the clock. But how much and what intensity and for how long much and what intensity and for how long much and what intensity and for how long is still being resolved. Clearly, the is still being resolved. Clearly, the is still being resolved. Clearly, the brighter the light and the longer you brighter the light and the longer you brighter the light and the longer you see it before bedtime could shift the see it before bedtime could shift the see it before bedtime could shift the clock. But what we do know that light is clock. But what we do know that light is clock. But what we do know that light is doing is increasing alertness and doing is increasing alertness and doing is increasing alertness and therefore delaying sleep onset. So, it's therefore delaying sleep onset. So, it's therefore delaying sleep onset. So, it's probably not the light from the devices probably not the light from the devices probably not the light from the devices changing the clock, but it's the light changing the clock, but it's the light changing the clock, but it's the light from the devices changing alertness and from the devices changing alertness and from the devices changing alertness and therefore delaying sleep. Yeah. Super therefore delaying sleep. Yeah. Super therefore delaying sleep. Yeah. Super super interesting. So, if we just stick super interesting. So, if we just stick super interesting. So, if we just stick to what that study showed, that was on a to what that study showed, that was on a to what that study showed, that was on a Kindle. Kindle. Kindle. I know when I've heard you speak before I know when I've heard you speak before I know when I've heard you speak before that you regard Kindles as quite that you regard Kindles as quite that you regard Kindles as quite different from smartphones or looking at different from smartphones or looking at different from smartphones or looking at social media. Perhaps you could explain social media. Perhaps you could explain social media. Perhaps you could explain why that is. why that is. why that is. >> Well, because a Kindle is is is fairly, >> Well, because a Kindle is is is fairly, >> Well, because a Kindle is is is fairly, you know, you're just reading it you know, you're just reading it you know, you're just reading it basically. Whereas a smartphone, you're basically. Whereas a smartphone, you're basically. Whereas a smartphone, you're checking your emails, you're looking at checking your emails, you're looking at checking your emails, you're looking at social media, you're checking the news, social media, you're checking the news, social media, you're checking the news, you might even be listening to music at you might even be listening to music at you might even be listening to music at the same time. And so these are really the same time. And so these are really the same time. And so these are really interactive devices and they will be interactive devices and they will be interactive devices and they will be increasing alertness and therefore increasing alertness and therefore increasing alertness and therefore delaying sleep onset. delaying sleep onset. delaying sleep onset. >> Yeah. Super interesting. >> Yeah. Super interesting. >> Yeah. Super interesting. In terms of light In terms of light In terms of light just to finish off in the evening then just to finish off in the evening then just to finish off in the evening then we talking about the complexities of we talking about the complexities of we talking about the complexities of light you know how much how long for all light you know how much how long for all light you know how much how long for all these kinds of things. Some people who these kinds of things. Some people who these kinds of things. Some people who are promoting health and wellbeing are are promoting health and wellbeing are are promoting health and wellbeing are talking about the importance of morning talking about the importance of morning talking about the importance of morning light morning natural light. I know light morning natural light. I know light morning natural light. I know there's one neuroscientist in America there's one neuroscientist in America there's one neuroscientist in America who talks about getting 10 to 30 minutes who talks about getting 10 to 30 minutes who talks about getting 10 to 30 minutes if you can if you can if you can >> within half an hour of waking up. Okay. >> within half an hour of waking up. Okay. >> within half an hour of waking up. Okay. So that's very clear guidance. I want to So that's very clear guidance. I want to So that's very clear guidance. I want to I want to know your view on that. I want to know your view on that. I want to know your view on that. >> The data are good for that. I mean >> The data are good for that. I mean >> The data are good for that. I mean really really I mean so for example the really really I mean so for example the really really I mean so for example the the Ken Wright studies have shown the Ken Wright studies have shown the Ken Wright studies have shown beautifully that bright morning light beautifully that bright morning light beautifully that bright morning light real light not artificial light can real light not artificial light can real light not artificial light can advance the clock and and and really advance the clock and and and really advance the clock and and and really shift individuals you two hours earlier. shift individuals you two hours earlier. shift individuals you two hours earlier. So there's there's no question about it So there's there's no question about it So there's there's no question about it and you can mimic this in in the lab as and you can mimic this in in the lab as and you can mimic this in in the lab as well. So for example, 10,000 lux for 30 well. So for example, 10,000 lux for 30 well. So for example, 10,000 lux for 30 minutes uh from a light box will also minutes uh from a light box will also minutes uh from a light box will also set the clock. So so the data are there set the clock. So so the data are there set the clock. So so the data are there pretty solid. So we say advance the pretty solid. So we say advance the pretty solid. So we say advance the clock. What if someone doesn't want to clock. What if someone doesn't want to clock. What if someone doesn't want to advance their clock and they wake up and advance their clock and they wake up and advance their clock and they wake up and they're like, they're like, they're like, >> you know what, I've got a a late work >> you know what, I've got a a late work >> you know what, I've got a a late work night out tonight and I won't be back night out tonight and I won't be back night out tonight and I won't be back for my normal time. I I've never thought for my normal time. I I've never thought for my normal time. I I've never thought of this question before, but I'm just of this question before, but I'm just of this question before, but I'm just intrigued. Might one then think, hey, intrigued. Might one then think, hey, intrigued. Might one then think, hey, for tonight I'm actually going to not for tonight I'm actually going to not for tonight I'm actually going to not expose myself to light for a couple of expose myself to light for a couple of expose myself to light for a couple of hours because I want to delay that or is hours because I want to delay that or is hours because I want to delay that or is that hard to say? that hard to say? that hard to say? >> It you it probably will have a small >> It you it probably will have a small >> It you it probably will have a small effect. I mean the the tricky thing is effect. I mean the the tricky thing is effect. I mean the the tricky thing is for those 10% of individuals who are for those 10% of individuals who are for those 10% of individuals who are really morning types and and and it's really morning types and and and it's really morning types and and and it's it's a shame really because most of it's a shame really because most of it's a shame really because most of their their colleagues will be their their colleagues will be their their colleagues will be intermediate to late types and of course intermediate to late types and of course intermediate to late types and of course they will be then forced on a Friday and they will be then forced on a Friday and they will be then forced on a Friday and a Saturday evening to stay up way beyond a Saturday evening to stay up way beyond a Saturday evening to stay up way beyond where they want to be and they sort of where they want to be and they sort of where they want to be and they sort of complain bitterly that um you know oh complain bitterly that um you know oh complain bitterly that um you know oh god all my friends sort of want me to god all my friends sort of want me to god all my friends sort of want me to stay up for the work environment it's stay up for the work environment it's stay up for the work environment it's great they can get up you know go to the great they can get up you know go to the great they can get up you know go to the gym early and then go on to work whereas gym early and then go on to work whereas gym early and then go on to work whereas most of us who are late types find that most of us who are late types find that most of us who are late types find that a struggle. a struggle. a struggle. >> So you're happy with that 10 to 30 >> So you're happy with that 10 to 30 >> So you're happy with that 10 to 30 minutes natural light recommendation. minutes natural light recommendation. minutes natural light recommendation. Would you Would you Would you >> would you would you ideally have people >> would you would you ideally have people >> would you would you ideally have people do that as soon as they can after do that as soon as they can after do that as soon as they can after waking? waking? waking? >> Certainly the the the earlier the bigger >> Certainly the the the earlier the bigger >> Certainly the the the earlier the bigger the the effect. Yes. And and it's and the the effect. Yes. And and it's and the the effect. Yes. And and it's and it's very important um ac across the it's very important um ac across the it's very important um ac across the spectrum. So for example in the nursing spectrum. So for example in the nursing spectrum. So for example in the nursing home environment up until fairly home environment up until fairly home environment up until fairly recently the light in those uh nursing recently the light in those uh nursing recently the light in those uh nursing homes was really low. I mean terribly homes was really low. I mean terribly homes was really low. I mean terribly low. some cases in the television room low. some cases in the television room low. some cases in the television room it would be just sort of 10 20 lux I it would be just sort of 10 20 lux I it would be just sort of 10 20 lux I mean crazy low. Uh now people are mean crazy low. Uh now people are mean crazy low. Uh now people are realizing that if you increase the light realizing that if you increase the light realizing that if you increase the light in the day spaces then you can actually in the day spaces then you can actually in the day spaces then you can actually improve the sleepwake behavior of of of improve the sleepwake behavior of of of improve the sleepwake behavior of of of individuals in a nursing home and where individuals in a nursing home and where individuals in a nursing home and where it's been looked at in individuals it's been looked at in individuals it's been looked at in individuals showing mild dementia. you could showing mild dementia. you could showing mild dementia. you could actually improve cognition by 10% simply actually improve cognition by 10% simply actually improve cognition by 10% simply by increasing the light with inside and by increasing the light with inside and by increasing the light with inside and and also using other tricks like you and also using other tricks like you and also using other tricks like you know having breakfast by a window where know having breakfast by a window where know having breakfast by a window where there's a lot of light coming through. there's a lot of light coming through. there's a lot of light coming through. >> Wow, that's fascinating. And then in >> Wow, that's fascinating. And then in >> Wow, that's fascinating. And then in terms of evening, I want to draw a terms of evening, I want to draw a terms of evening, I want to draw a distinction between natural light and distinction between natural light and distinction between natural light and artificial light. artificial light. artificial light. So let's say you live in a country where So let's say you live in a country where So let's say you live in a country where you have long light evenings at you have long light evenings at you have long light evenings at particular times of the year like the UK particular times of the year like the UK particular times of the year like the UK for example. for example. for example. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You want to get your morning lights in You want to get your morning lights in You want to get your morning lights in the morning, which is clearly a lot the morning, which is clearly a lot the morning, which is clearly a lot easier in a UK summer than it is in the easier in a UK summer than it is in the easier in a UK summer than it is in the winter. winter. winter. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What happens if you want to be outside >> What happens if you want to be outside >> What happens if you want to be outside in the evening? So, it's it's still in the evening? So, it's it's still in the evening? So, it's it's still natural. It's not your screen. It's not natural. It's not your screen. It's not natural. It's not your screen. It's not social media. It's not the news. It's social media. It's not the news. It's social media. It's not the news. It's not all that attention stimulating not all that attention stimulating not all that attention stimulating information. information. information. Is there something going on in natural Is there something going on in natural Is there something going on in natural light where actually, you know, the light where actually, you know, the light where actually, you know, the evening light perhaps doesn't shift the evening light perhaps doesn't shift the evening light perhaps doesn't shift the clock as much or or or or does that clock as much or or or or does that clock as much or or or or does that still do it? still do it? still do it? >> Well, of course, when we're all >> Well, of course, when we're all >> Well, of course, when we're all agricultural workers, we got symmetrical agricultural workers, we got symmetrical agricultural workers, we got symmetrical exposure to dawn and dusk. And so, you exposure to dawn and dusk. And so, you exposure to dawn and dusk. And so, you know, the morning light would advance know, the morning light would advance know, the morning light would advance us, but then that was counteracted by us, but then that was counteracted by us, but then that was counteracted by the the dusk light, which would delay the the dusk light, which would delay the the dusk light, which would delay us. And so, it so it was fine. And the us. And so, it so it was fine. And the us. And so, it so it was fine. And the problem that many of us face now is that problem that many of us face now is that problem that many of us face now is that we get asymmetrical exposure to the dawn we get asymmetrical exposure to the dawn we get asymmetrical exposure to the dawn dusk cycle which invariably means most dusk cycle which invariably means most dusk cycle which invariably means most of us will miss morning but get lots of of us will miss morning but get lots of of us will miss morning but get lots of of dusk light uh and therefore get up of dusk light uh and therefore get up of dusk light uh and therefore get up later. We'll de delay the clock. Now in later. We'll de delay the clock. Now in later. We'll de delay the clock. Now in terms of the quality we've we've talked terms of the quality we've we've talked terms of the quality we've we've talked about the intensity. We've talked about about the intensity. We've talked about about the intensity. We've talked about the duration um but we should also touch the duration um but we should also touch the duration um but we should also touch about the color the wavelength of light. about the color the wavelength of light. about the color the wavelength of light. Now those specialized photo receptors Now those specialized photo receptors Now those specialized photo receptors are maximally sensitive in the blue part are maximally sensitive in the blue part are maximally sensitive in the blue part of the spectrum. In fact, intriguingly, of the spectrum. In fact, intriguingly, of the spectrum. In fact, intriguingly, if you look at the blue of a really if you look at the blue of a really if you look at the blue of a really beautiful blue sky, that's where they're beautiful blue sky, that's where they're beautiful blue sky, that's where they're maximally sensitive. Um, so, so there's maximally sensitive. Um, so, so there's maximally sensitive. Um, so, so there's been a suggestion that actually only been a suggestion that actually only been a suggestion that actually only blue light is important. But again, it's blue light is important. But again, it's blue light is important. But again, it's more complicated than that because the more complicated than that because the more complicated than that because the response is like a bell-shaped curve. response is like a bell-shaped curve. response is like a bell-shaped curve. It's maximally sensitive in in in the It's maximally sensitive in in in the It's maximally sensitive in in in the blue, but of course, it doesn't mean blue, but of course, it doesn't mean blue, but of course, it doesn't mean that they won't the receptors won't that they won't the receptors won't that they won't the receptors won't detect shorter wavelength uh or indeed detect shorter wavelength uh or indeed detect shorter wavelength uh or indeed longer wavelength light. Again, it's how longer wavelength light. Again, it's how longer wavelength light. Again, it's how long you're exposed to it. We also now long you're exposed to it. We also now long you're exposed to it. We also now know, which is turn out to be really know, which is turn out to be really know, which is turn out to be really confusing, that the rods and cones, confusing, that the rods and cones, confusing, that the rods and cones, which we know are not required for the which we know are not required for the which we know are not required for the regulation of the clock, talk to those regulation of the clock, talk to those regulation of the clock, talk to those specialized photo receptors. So, they specialized photo receptors. So, they specialized photo receptors. So, they can modulate their activity. can modulate their activity. can modulate their activity. Some of them, some of the rods and cones Some of them, some of the rods and cones Some of them, some of the rods and cones seem to add sensitivity and others seem seem to add sensitivity and others seem seem to add sensitivity and others seem to inhibit the responses. So, it's to inhibit the responses. So, it's to inhibit the responses. So, it's turning out to be really complicated. um turning out to be really complicated. um turning out to be really complicated. um and we don't fully understand why. and we don't fully understand why. and we don't fully understand why. >> So the best advice would be let's say >> So the best advice would be let's say >> So the best advice would be let's say someone is trying to get on top of their someone is trying to get on top of their someone is trying to get on top of their circadian rhythm and their sleep and circadian rhythm and their sleep and circadian rhythm and their sleep and they feel either for work reasons or for they feel either for work reasons or for they feel either for work reasons or for other reasons they're going to bed too other reasons they're going to bed too other reasons they're going to bed too late. The best advice at the moment late. The best advice at the moment late. The best advice at the moment would be to try and limit light exposure would be to try and limit light exposure would be to try and limit light exposure in the evening. Even if it's natural in the evening. Even if it's natural in the evening. Even if it's natural light, you still want to be a bit light, you still want to be a bit light, you still want to be a bit careful. careful. careful. >> Yeah. And and if you are an extreme late >> Yeah. And and if you are an extreme late >> Yeah. And and if you are an extreme late type and you really are struggling, then type and you really are struggling, then type and you really are struggling, then what you need to do is um set the alarm what you need to do is um set the alarm what you need to do is um set the alarm and either get outside first thing in and either get outside first thing in and either get outside first thing in the morning or get a light box which the morning or get a light box which the morning or get a light box which will advance the clock and make it easy will advance the clock and make it easy will advance the clock and make it easy for you to get up for job or or whatever for you to get up for job or or whatever for you to get up for job or or whatever reason. Yeah, reason. Yeah, reason. Yeah, >> I know you were on the Chris Evans >> I know you were on the Chris Evans >> I know you were on the Chris Evans breakfast show recently talking about breakfast show recently talking about breakfast show recently talking about your book and um I remember in that your book and um I remember in that your book and um I remember in that conversation Chris said because he for conversation Chris said because he for conversation Chris said because he for many years is you know presenting on many years is you know presenting on many years is you know presenting on live radio I think at the moment at 6:30 live radio I think at the moment at 6:30 live radio I think at the moment at 6:30 a.m. and I think he said to you that he a.m. and I think he said to you that he a.m. and I think he said to you that he goes to bed at 7:00 p.m. or he at least goes to bed at 7:00 p.m. or he at least goes to bed at 7:00 p.m. or he at least puts an eye mask on at 7:00 p.m. So it's puts an eye mask on at 7:00 p.m. So it's puts an eye mask on at 7:00 p.m. So it's reducing how much the light is coming reducing how much the light is coming reducing how much the light is coming through his eyes. I think he said in through his eyes. I think he said in through his eyes. I think he said in that conversation with you it had a that conversation with you it had a that conversation with you it had a massive difference. And then when he massive difference. And then when he massive difference. And then when he wakes up at 4:00 a.m., he puts all the wakes up at 4:00 a.m., he puts all the wakes up at 4:00 a.m., he puts all the lights on in his bedroom as bright as lights on in his bedroom as bright as lights on in his bedroom as bright as possible. possible. possible. >> And that's really interesting. And I >> And that's really interesting. And I >> And that's really interesting. And I know he was saying it's had a huge know he was saying it's had a huge know he was saying it's had a huge difference for him. difference for him. difference for him. >> And of course, it maps onto exactly what >> And of course, it maps onto exactly what >> And of course, it maps onto exactly what we know about the system. He's doing we know about the system. He's doing we know about the system. He's doing exactly the right thing for what his exactly the right thing for what his exactly the right thing for what his requirements are, which is to get up requirements are, which is to get up requirements are, which is to get up early and then perform early. We have early and then perform early. We have early and then perform early. We have the capacity to lean into challenge and the capacity to lean into challenge and the capacity to lean into challenge and resist infection, heal wounds, and that resist infection, heal wounds, and that resist infection, heal wounds, and that is all mediated is all mediated is all mediated by adrenaline. And the release of by adrenaline. And the release of by adrenaline. And the release of adrenaline is mediated by the nervous adrenaline is mediated by the nervous adrenaline is mediated by the nervous system. Now, when things go bad, for system. Now, when things go bad, for system. Now, when things go bad, for instance, people with chronically instance, people with chronically instance, people with chronically elevated adrenals, they're drinking elevated adrenals, they're drinking elevated adrenals, they're drinking coffee all the time and working like coffee all the time and working like coffee all the time and working like crazy, not getting enough sleep, crazy, not getting enough sleep, crazy, not getting enough sleep, psychological stress, they're not psychological stress, they're not psychological stress, they're not shutting off that system, then you start shutting off that system, then you start shutting off that system, then you start getting into chronic health issues, getting into chronic health issues, getting into chronic health issues, right? because the stress system can't right? because the stress system can't right? because the stress system can't be um chronically activated for too long be um chronically activated for too long be um chronically activated for too long or else you run into issues. But the or else you run into issues. But the or else you run into issues. But the nervous system coordinates that. nervous system coordinates that. nervous system coordinates that. Likewise, for people that have anxiety, Likewise, for people that have anxiety, Likewise, for people that have anxiety, we have to say, well, what is anxiety? we have to say, well, what is anxiety? we have to say, well, what is anxiety? Well, at a biological level, anxiety, Well, at a biological level, anxiety, Well, at a biological level, anxiety, stress, trauma, fear, and PTSD are all stress, trauma, fear, and PTSD are all stress, trauma, fear, and PTSD are all the same thing. It's ruminating on the same thing. It's ruminating on the same thing. It's ruminating on thoughts, but it's the release of thoughts, but it's the release of thoughts, but it's the release of adrenaline in a very unregulated way. adrenaline in a very unregulated way. adrenaline in a very unregulated way. And adrenaline has a primary effect And adrenaline has a primary effect And adrenaline has a primary effect which is to make us want to move or which is to make us want to move or which is to make us want to move or speak. It biases us towards action. It's speak. It biases us towards action. It's speak. It biases us towards action. It's the quaking of the hands. It's the the quaking of the hands. It's the the quaking of the hands. It's the quaking of the voice. It's the quaking of the voice. It's the quaking of the voice. It's the quickening of the breath. It's the um quickening of the breath. It's the um quickening of the breath. It's the um dilation of the pupils uh of the eyes dilation of the pupils uh of the eyes dilation of the pupils uh of the eyes which um sort of counterintuitively which um sort of counterintuitively which um sort of counterintuitively creates a constricting of our visual creates a constricting of our visual creates a constricting of our visual field. It takes us out of the past and field. It takes us out of the past and field. It takes us out of the past and future and puts us into the moment so future and puts us into the moment so future and puts us into the moment so that we can you know identify what's that we can you know identify what's that we can you know identify what's going on. So the the idea is to take going on. So the the idea is to take going on. So the the idea is to take basic practices in in the case of this basic practices in in the case of this basic practices in in the case of this discussion practices that mainly anchor discussion practices that mainly anchor discussion practices that mainly anchor to vision and respiration and learn to to vision and respiration and learn to to vision and respiration and learn to control adrenaline release and the control adrenaline release and the control adrenaline release and the timing of that release. Learn to control timing of that release. Learn to control timing of that release. Learn to control it is a three essentially has three it is a three essentially has three it is a three essentially has three components. One is you can increase components. One is you can increase components. One is you can increase adrenaline release and there are times adrenaline release and there are times adrenaline release and there are times where that is beneficial and we talk where that is beneficial and we talk where that is beneficial and we talk about that. Then you can come off the about that. Then you can come off the about that. Then you can come off the accelerator of adrenaline release. And accelerator of adrenaline release. And accelerator of adrenaline release. And then there's a third component which is then there's a third component which is then there's a third component which is to slam on the brake and shut down the to slam on the brake and shut down the to slam on the brake and shut down the adrenaline system. And the ways to do adrenaline system. And the ways to do adrenaline system. And the ways to do that are uh you could people try to do that are uh you could people try to do that are uh you could people try to do it pharmacologically. They drink it pharmacologically. They drink it pharmacologically. They drink alcohol. They drink coffee has opposite alcohol. They drink coffee has opposite alcohol. They drink coffee has opposite effects on the adrenaline system. effects on the adrenaline system. effects on the adrenaline system. Obviously they use uh sedatives and Obviously they use uh sedatives and Obviously they use uh sedatives and opioid compounds. Um but they also do opioid compounds. Um but they also do opioid compounds. Um but they also do things like take vacations or do things like take vacations or do things like take vacations or do meditation or um get massages which are meditation or um get massages which are meditation or um get massages which are all wonderful. The meditations, massages all wonderful. The meditations, massages all wonderful. The meditations, massages and um vacations are great. However, and um vacations are great. However, and um vacations are great. However, those all require that you step out of those all require that you step out of those all require that you step out of life. You know, I love getting a life. You know, I love getting a life. You know, I love getting a professional massage, but the professional massage, but the professional massage, but the professional massage is like $190, which professional massage is like $190, which professional massage is like $190, which frankly, even at my stage of life, I frankly, even at my stage of life, I frankly, even at my stage of life, I always feel like it's great, but you always feel like it's great, but you always feel like it's great, but you know, it's a considerable investment. know, it's a considerable investment. know, it's a considerable investment. I'm not going to do it every day. I I'm not going to do it every day. I I'm not going to do it every day. I don't have a masseuse in my home. And to don't have a masseuse in my home. And to don't have a masseuse in my home. And to be honest, it requires that I not do be honest, it requires that I not do be honest, it requires that I not do something else. something else. something else. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Being a functional human and a >> Being a functional human and a >> Being a functional human and a functional human on any kind of budget functional human on any kind of budget functional human on any kind of budget means that you need to be able to turn means that you need to be able to turn means that you need to be able to turn on and off focus and relaxation and on and off focus and relaxation and on and off focus and relaxation and stress and so forth in a way that you stress and so forth in a way that you stress and so forth in a way that you are in control of that. And so when you are in control of that. And so when you are in control of that. And so when you start learning how to control your start learning how to control your start learning how to control your nervous system, it's tremendously nervous system, it's tremendously nervous system, it's tremendously empowering. And I don't think that empowering. And I don't think that empowering. And I don't think that people should not take vacations um or people should not take vacations um or people should not take vacations um or not get massages or whatever it is, but not get massages or whatever it is, but not get massages or whatever it is, but the ability to control your nervous the ability to control your nervous the ability to control your nervous system in a dynamic way in short time system in a dynamic way in short time system in a dynamic way in short time scales on the time scale of seconds, on scales on the time scale of seconds, on scales on the time scale of seconds, on the time scale of days, on the time the time scale of days, on the time the time scale of days, on the time scale of weeks, that's what leads to scale of weeks, that's what leads to scale of weeks, that's what leads to really terrific work and school and really terrific work and school and really terrific work and school and relationship and sleep and exercise relationship and sleep and exercise relationship and sleep and exercise practices. I just simply can't think of practices. I just simply can't think of practices. I just simply can't think of any other route to it. For instance, any other route to it. For instance, any other route to it. For instance, there's no liver detox that's going to there's no liver detox that's going to there's no liver detox that's going to do that. There's no gut microbiome fix. do that. There's no gut microbiome fix. do that. There's no gut microbiome fix. The gut microbiome is very important, by The gut microbiome is very important, by The gut microbiome is very important, by the way, for reasons we could discuss the way, for reasons we could discuss the way, for reasons we could discuss and as you know and know more far more and as you know and know more far more and as you know and know more far more about than I do. But there's no one tool about than I do. But there's no one tool about than I do. But there's no one tool or pill or potion or practice that's or pill or potion or practice that's or pill or potion or practice that's going to allow the whole system that is going to allow the whole system that is going to allow the whole system that is you to fall into place. Whereas if you you to fall into place. Whereas if you you to fall into place. Whereas if you learn to control your nervous system learn to control your nervous system learn to control your nervous system from the standpoint of attention, focus, from the standpoint of attention, focus, from the standpoint of attention, focus, relaxation, and sleep, and you use the relaxation, and sleep, and you use the relaxation, and sleep, and you use the appropriate tools to access those, then appropriate tools to access those, then appropriate tools to access those, then you find that everything else works you find that everything else works you find that everything else works better. Yeah. better. Yeah. better. Yeah. >> And that those additional tools of >> And that those additional tools of >> And that those additional tools of >> I am a believer in certain supplements. >> I am a believer in certain supplements. >> I am a believer in certain supplements. I also think, you know, people should I also think, you know, people should I also think, you know, people should eat fermented foods to improve their gut eat fermented foods to improve their gut eat fermented foods to improve their gut >> and reduce the activity of the inflamm. >> and reduce the activity of the inflamm. >> and reduce the activity of the inflamm. There's great science to that. But that There's great science to that. But that There's great science to that. But that one practice isn't going to change one practice isn't going to change one practice isn't going to change everything. It's going to help. But everything. It's going to help. But everything. It's going to help. But controlling, learning to control your controlling, learning to control your controlling, learning to control your nervous system will indeed change nervous system will indeed change nervous system will indeed change everything. Your whole life gets better everything. Your whole life gets better everything. Your whole life gets better >> and in and mentally and physically. >> and in and mentally and physically. >> and in and mentally and physically. >> The idea learning to control your >> The idea learning to control your >> The idea learning to control your nervous system, I I think is one that we nervous system, I I think is one that we nervous system, I I think is one that we should just pause on because, you know, should just pause on because, you know, should just pause on because, you know, sometimes in life we'll want to sometimes in life we'll want to sometimes in life we'll want to upregulate our nervous system to I guess upregulate our nervous system to I guess upregulate our nervous system to I guess perform a certain task. Other times in perform a certain task. Other times in perform a certain task. Other times in life we'll want to downregulate it. In life we'll want to downregulate it. In life we'll want to downregulate it. In my experience, and I'm sort of my bias my experience, and I'm sort of my bias my experience, and I'm sort of my bias is as a clinician, what I have seen is is as a clinician, what I have seen is is as a clinician, what I have seen is that at least the people who come in to that at least the people who come in to that at least the people who come in to see me see me see me are usually struggling to downregulate a are usually struggling to downregulate a are usually struggling to downregulate a lot of it. They've taken on too much. We lot of it. They've taken on too much. We lot of it. They've taken on too much. We we know this a big problem. You know, we know this a big problem. You know, we know this a big problem. You know, chronic unmanaged stress, burnout, chronic unmanaged stress, burnout, chronic unmanaged stress, burnout, taking on too many things, not actively taking on too many things, not actively taking on too many things, not actively prioritizing relaxation. That's a big prioritizing relaxation. That's a big prioritizing relaxation. That's a big problem. So, you know, maybe we can talk problem. So, you know, maybe we can talk problem. So, you know, maybe we can talk about some of the things that, well, about some of the things that, well, about some of the things that, well, first of all, would you agree that first of all, would you agree that first of all, would you agree that actually that's a key skill and one that actually that's a key skill and one that actually that's a key skill and one that actually is potentially not as hard as actually is potentially not as hard as actually is potentially not as hard as we think to teach people? And then what we think to teach people? And then what we think to teach people? And then what are some of those practical tools that are some of those practical tools that are some of those practical tools that we can use to downregulate our nervous we can use to downregulate our nervous we can use to downregulate our nervous system? system? system? >> Yeah. Well, first of all, I completely >> Yeah. Well, first of all, I completely >> Yeah. Well, first of all, I completely agree and even if I do agree and even if agree and even if I do agree and even if agree and even if I do agree and even if I didn't, you'd be right because you're I didn't, you'd be right because you're I didn't, you'd be right because you're the clinician, not me, right? Um well the clinician, not me, right? Um well the clinician, not me, right? Um well really and and I should say I have really and and I should say I have really and and I should say I have tremendous respect for the clinical tremendous respect for the clinical tremendous respect for the clinical fields. I mean I my I'm on the school of fields. I mean I my I'm on the school of fields. I mean I my I'm on the school of medicine side at Stanford. I don't teach medicine side at Stanford. I don't teach medicine side at Stanford. I don't teach undergraduates. I used to be at a undergraduates. I used to be at a undergraduates. I used to be at a undergraduate university but so I'm in undergraduate university but so I'm in undergraduate university but so I'm in the medicine side and um and I think the medicine side and um and I think the medicine side and um and I think that uh chronic stress is is a major that uh chronic stress is is a major that uh chronic stress is is a major issue. Um and stress stress makes every issue. Um and stress stress makes every issue. Um and stress stress makes every neurolog I know we said this earlier but neurolog I know we said this earlier but neurolog I know we said this earlier but it's worth paying attention. makes every it's worth paying attention. makes every it's worth paying attention. makes every everything worse when it's chronic. And everything worse when it's chronic. And everything worse when it's chronic. And stress when you can take advantage of stress when you can take advantage of stress when you can take advantage of the mechanisms of stress and leverage the mechanisms of stress and leverage the mechanisms of stress and leverage them, it's tremendously empowering. I them, it's tremendously empowering. I them, it's tremendously empowering. I mean, I will even say that I mean, mean, I will even say that I mean, mean, I will even say that I mean, clearly you're not an example of this, clearly you're not an example of this, clearly you're not an example of this, but there are a lot of physicians who but there are a lot of physicians who but there are a lot of physicians who are very unhealthy. I mean, this idea are very unhealthy. I mean, this idea are very unhealthy. I mean, this idea that scientists and and and doctors are that scientists and and and doctors are that scientists and and and doctors are healthy. I mean, just look at most of healthy. I mean, just look at most of healthy. I mean, just look at most of them, right? No, they're not taking good them, right? No, they're not taking good them, right? No, they're not taking good care. Um, and so that is not I'm not care. Um, and so that is not I'm not care. Um, and so that is not I'm not poking at them. What I'm saying is that poking at them. What I'm saying is that poking at them. What I'm saying is that everybody has to learn how to do this. everybody has to learn how to do this. everybody has to learn how to do this. Um there's a there's a truth which is Um there's a there's a truth which is Um there's a there's a truth which is that we are generally compensated in that we are generally compensated in that we are generally compensated in life for the degree to which we can lean life for the degree to which we can lean life for the degree to which we can lean into hard work and effort, but a lot of into hard work and effort, but a lot of into hard work and effort, but a lot of people learn how to hit the accelerator people learn how to hit the accelerator people learn how to hit the accelerator and as you said, they never learn how to and as you said, they never learn how to and as you said, they never learn how to decompress. So a big part of my lab's decompress. So a big part of my lab's decompress. So a big part of my lab's work has been to develop work has been to develop work has been to develop zerocost tools that people can use in zerocost tools that people can use in zerocost tools that people can use in real time to adjust their levels of real time to adjust their levels of real time to adjust their levels of stress and calm down quickly. So we can stress and calm down quickly. So we can stress and calm down quickly. So we can talk about those tools and then we've talk about those tools and then we've talk about those tools and then we've also been developing tools that people also been developing tools that people also been developing tools that people can do as short practices separate from can do as short practices separate from can do as short practices separate from uh real life meaning like a 5 minute a uh real life meaning like a 5 minute a uh real life meaning like a 5 minute a day practice that will what we call day practice that will what we call day practice that will what we call raise their stress threshold so that raise their stress threshold so that raise their stress threshold so that their trigger point to become stressed their trigger point to become stressed their trigger point to become stressed is further away. And the the first is further away. And the the first is further away. And the the first practice which um is based on work that practice which um is based on work that practice which um is based on work that goes back to the 1930s actually it's goes back to the 1930s actually it's goes back to the 1930s actually it's what's called the physiological sigh. what's called the physiological sigh. what's called the physiological sigh. physiological size um are something that physiological size um are something that physiological size um are something that we all actually do about once every five we all actually do about once every five we all actually do about once every five minutes. So in sleep or in wakefulness, minutes. So in sleep or in wakefulness, minutes. So in sleep or in wakefulness, every 5 minutes or so we take a big deep every 5 minutes or so we take a big deep every 5 minutes or so we take a big deep breath and we don't realize it but we do breath and we don't realize it but we do breath and we don't realize it but we do this and dogs will do this right before this and dogs will do this right before this and dogs will do this right before they go down to sleep. Um humans do they go down to sleep. Um humans do they go down to sleep. Um humans do this. Why do we do that? Well, there are this. Why do we do that? Well, there are this. Why do we do that? Well, there are two main uh reasons why we breathe. One two main uh reasons why we breathe. One two main uh reasons why we breathe. One is to bring oxygen in into our system is to bring oxygen in into our system is to bring oxygen in into our system and then that oxygen it's beautiful and then that oxygen it's beautiful and then that oxygen it's beautiful system. And it actually, you know, it system. And it actually, you know, it system. And it actually, you know, it fills the lungs and then as we know it, fills the lungs and then as we know it, fills the lungs and then as we know it, it moves from the lungs into the it moves from the lungs into the it moves from the lungs into the bloodstream and our cells require oxygen bloodstream and our cells require oxygen bloodstream and our cells require oxygen and then exhales we discard carbon and then exhales we discard carbon and then exhales we discard carbon dioxide and we need car oxygen and dioxide and we need car oxygen and dioxide and we need car oxygen and carbon dioxide of course for our health. carbon dioxide of course for our health. carbon dioxide of course for our health. Um, every cell relies on this. You you Um, every cell relies on this. You you Um, every cell relies on this. You you wouldn't want to get rid of one or the wouldn't want to get rid of one or the wouldn't want to get rid of one or the either entirely. The the stimulus to either entirely. The the stimulus to either entirely. The the stimulus to breathe meaning the impulse to breathe breathe meaning the impulse to breathe breathe meaning the impulse to breathe is because if you have a small set of is because if you have a small set of is because if you have a small set of neurons in your brain stem that detect neurons in your brain stem that detect neurons in your brain stem that detect the buildup of carbon dioxide in the the buildup of carbon dioxide in the the buildup of carbon dioxide in the bloodstream. So when that level gets too bloodstream. So when that level gets too bloodstream. So when that level gets too high, you take a big deep breath and high, you take a big deep breath and high, you take a big deep breath and then you offload the carbon dioxide. then you offload the carbon dioxide. then you offload the carbon dioxide. That's actually why you do the That's actually why you do the That's actually why you do the physiological size to discard car carbon physiological size to discard car carbon physiological size to discard car carbon dioxide and as a consequence you bring dioxide and as a consequence you bring dioxide and as a consequence you bring in more oxygen. Now here's what's in more oxygen. Now here's what's in more oxygen. Now here's what's interesting. The the lungs are not just interesting. The the lungs are not just interesting. The the lungs are not just two big bags of air. They have millions two big bags of air. They have millions two big bags of air. They have millions actually hundreds of millions of little actually hundreds of millions of little actually hundreds of millions of little avioli little sacks. And when we under avioli little sacks. And when we under avioli little sacks. And when we under breathe or when we are stressed and when breathe or when we are stressed and when breathe or when we are stressed and when we over breathe. So either way, we're um we over breathe. So either way, we're um we over breathe. So either way, we're um those little sacks actually deflate and those little sacks actually deflate and those little sacks actually deflate and because they have fluid inside them because they have fluid inside them because they have fluid inside them because of surface tension, they are because of surface tension, they are because of surface tension, they are they are not um easily reinflated and so they are not um easily reinflated and so they are not um easily reinflated and so we're actually esphixxiating ourselves. we're actually esphixxiating ourselves. we're actually esphixxiating ourselves. We don't have oxygen and we're not able We don't have oxygen and we're not able We don't have oxygen and we're not able to offload carbon dioxide. Bad to offload carbon dioxide. Bad to offload carbon dioxide. Bad situation. The physiological side that I situation. The physiological side that I situation. The physiological side that I recommend that people do when they're recommend that people do when they're recommend that people do when they're feeling stressed anytime or any place, I feeling stressed anytime or any place, I feeling stressed anytime or any place, I suppose, unless you're underwater, is to suppose, unless you're underwater, is to suppose, unless you're underwater, is to do two inhales through the nose back to do two inhales through the nose back to do two inhales through the nose back to back. The first one is a big long inhale back. The first one is a big long inhale back. The first one is a big long inhale and then the second inhale you're only and then the second inhale you're only and then the second inhale you're only going to be able to sneak in a tiny bit going to be able to sneak in a tiny bit going to be able to sneak in a tiny bit of air and then a long complete exhale of air and then a long complete exhale of air and then a long complete exhale through the mouth. So it's so it's a very sharp little second so it's a very sharp little second inhale after the first one. You almost inhale after the first one. You almost inhale after the first one. You almost feel like you couldn't get any more air feel like you couldn't get any more air feel like you couldn't get any more air in. But when you do that second inhale in. But when you do that second inhale in. But when you do that second inhale you reinflate the avioli of the lungs. you reinflate the avioli of the lungs. you reinflate the avioli of the lungs. You snap open all of those. They don't You snap open all of those. They don't You snap open all of those. They don't break. And then when you exhale, you break. And then when you exhale, you break. And then when you exhale, you offload the carbon dioxide. Doing that offload the carbon dioxide. Doing that offload the carbon dioxide. Doing that just once, sometimes two or three times, just once, sometimes two or three times, just once, sometimes two or three times, but just once, we know from data in our but just once, we know from data in our but just once, we know from data in our laboratory and other laboratories, will laboratory and other laboratories, will laboratory and other laboratories, will immediately reduce your levels of stress immediately reduce your levels of stress immediately reduce your levels of stress and anxiety. Immediately. It's the and anxiety. Immediately. It's the and anxiety. Immediately. It's the fastest approach that I'm aware of to fastest approach that I'm aware of to fastest approach that I'm aware of to destress. Far faster than trying to tell destress. Far faster than trying to tell destress. Far faster than trying to tell yourself not to worry. Certainly far yourself not to worry. Certainly far yourself not to worry. Certainly far faster than telling you or somebody else faster than telling you or somebody else faster than telling you or somebody else to take a deep breath. It's this this to take a deep breath. It's this this to take a deep breath. It's this this double inhale through the nose, exhale double inhale through the nose, exhale double inhale through the nose, exhale through the mouth is a very efficient through the mouth is a very efficient through the mouth is a very efficient way to bring in oxygen, dump carbon way to bring in oxygen, dump carbon way to bring in oxygen, dump carbon dioxide, and reinflate the avioli of the dioxide, and reinflate the avioli of the dioxide, and reinflate the avioli of the lungs so that in the immediate moments lungs so that in the immediate moments lungs so that in the immediate moments afterward, you're breathing more afterward, you're breathing more afterward, you're breathing more naturally and more calmly. So, it's a, naturally and more calmly. So, it's a, naturally and more calmly. So, it's a, you know, I don't like to use the phrase you know, I don't like to use the phrase you know, I don't like to use the phrase of like power tools and this kind of of like power tools and this kind of of like power tools and this kind of thing because that's not the business I thing because that's not the business I thing because that's not the business I come from. But I think if there were one come from. But I think if there were one come from. But I think if there were one tool um that I would like everyone to do tool um that I would like everyone to do tool um that I would like everyone to do would be the morning light viewing. But would be the morning light viewing. But would be the morning light viewing. But the other tool I'd love for people to the other tool I'd love for people to the other tool I'd love for people to have in their kit is this physiological have in their kit is this physiological have in their kit is this physiological sigh. And as I mentioned, you do this sigh. And as I mentioned, you do this sigh. And as I mentioned, you do this spontaneously in low claustrophobic spontaneously in low claustrophobic spontaneously in low claustrophobic environments. People do it during sleep environments. People do it during sleep environments. People do it during sleep when um they are developing apnea. Um when um they are developing apnea. Um when um they are developing apnea. Um they'll and then when when we cry or we they'll and then when when we cry or we they'll and then when when we cry or we observe someone crying, watch how they observe someone crying, watch how they observe someone crying, watch how they recover their breathing after sobbing recover their breathing after sobbing recover their breathing after sobbing because sobbing is mostly exhaling because sobbing is mostly exhaling because sobbing is mostly exhaling and then they and then they and then they there's a like a kind of a like a there's a like a kind of a like a there's a like a kind of a like a reverber reverberating um inhale. So big reverber reverberating um inhale. So big reverber reverberating um inhale. So big inhale, second inhale through the nose, inhale, second inhale through the nose, inhale, second inhale through the nose, just squeeze in a little bit more air just squeeze in a little bit more air just squeeze in a little bit more air and then long exhale through the mouth. and then long exhale through the mouth. and then long exhale through the mouth. And that one has saved me and I from the And that one has saved me and I from the And that one has saved me and I from the feedback I've gotten it saved many many feedback I've gotten it saved many many feedback I've gotten it saved many many people many many times and it can be people many many times and it can be people many many times and it can be done essentially anywhere. Is is that in done essentially anywhere. Is is that in done essentially anywhere. Is is that in some ways a reset for your nervous some ways a reset for your nervous some ways a reset for your nervous system? Things are getting out of system? Things are getting out of system? Things are getting out of control. Tension pressure is building up control. Tension pressure is building up control. Tension pressure is building up and you instantaneously and you instantaneously and you instantaneously can sort of what reset it back to can sort of what reset it back to can sort of what reset it back to baseline. Is that a way that we can baseline. Is that a way that we can baseline. Is that a way that we can think about it? think about it? think about it? >> Yeah. Think about it as a break on the >> Yeah. Think about it as a break on the >> Yeah. Think about it as a break on the adrenaline system. Think about it as um adrenaline system. Think about it as um adrenaline system. Think about it as um because when there's elevated carbon because when there's elevated carbon because when there's elevated carbon dioxide in the bloodstream, the brain dioxide in the bloodstream, the brain dioxide in the bloodstream, the brain registers that and sends a signal to registers that and sends a signal to registers that and sends a signal to your adrenals. Uhoh, we're running out your adrenals. Uhoh, we're running out your adrenals. Uhoh, we're running out of air. You need to move. You need to of air. You need to move. You need to of air. You need to move. You need to get to someplace else in order to not get to someplace else in order to not get to someplace else in order to not esphyxiate. And so this is why the the esphyxiate. And so this is why the the esphyxiate. And so this is why the the signal is so powerful. Now, I think that signal is so powerful. Now, I think that signal is so powerful. Now, I think that there's there's another aspect to this, there's there's another aspect to this, there's there's another aspect to this, which is that when our minds are racing which is that when our minds are racing which is that when our minds are racing out of control, it's very hard to out of control, it's very hard to out of control, it's very hard to stabilize our thinking with thinking. I stabilize our thinking with thinking. I stabilize our thinking with thinking. I always say, you know, trying to control always say, you know, trying to control always say, you know, trying to control your thoughts with thoughts is like your thoughts with thoughts is like your thoughts with thoughts is like trying to grab fog. It's very, very trying to grab fog. It's very, very trying to grab fog. It's very, very difficult. So, when your brain and your difficult. So, when your brain and your difficult. So, when your brain and your mind and your thinking aren't where you mind and your thinking aren't where you mind and your thinking aren't where you want them to be, you need to look to want them to be, you need to look to want them to be, you need to look to your body to to recalibrate your state your body to to recalibrate your state your body to to recalibrate your state of mind so that then you get a new of mind so that then you get a new of mind so that then you get a new vantage point to view whatever it is vantage point to view whatever it is vantage point to view whatever it is that you happen to be contending with that you happen to be contending with that you happen to be contending with mentally. I actually had this happen the mentally. I actually had this happen the mentally. I actually had this happen the other day. I've been dealing with a with other day. I've been dealing with a with other day. I've been dealing with a with a set of issues that are kind of chronic a set of issues that are kind of chronic a set of issues that are kind of chronic and ongoing and it's a slow grind and and ongoing and it's a slow grind and and ongoing and it's a slow grind and it's it's working out. the details it's it's working out. the details it's it's working out. the details aren't important or relevant here, but aren't important or relevant here, but aren't important or relevant here, but um it's something I have to think about um it's something I have to think about um it's something I have to think about a lot each day. What am I going to do? a lot each day. What am I going to do? a lot each day. What am I going to do? How am I going to handle this situation How am I going to handle this situation How am I going to handle this situation and I noticed I was on the plane and I and I noticed I was on the plane and I and I noticed I was on the plane and I was feeling pretty stressed about this. was feeling pretty stressed about this. was feeling pretty stressed about this. And you do a couple of these And you do a couple of these And you do a couple of these physiological size and then what happens physiological size and then what happens physiological size and then what happens is you're able to still parse those is you're able to still parse those is you're able to still parse those thoughts but from a a different thoughts but from a a different thoughts but from a a different perspective. It's much easier to look to perspective. It's much easier to look to perspective. It's much easier to look to the body, readjust your state of mind to the body, readjust your state of mind to the body, readjust your state of mind to a calmer place, and then be able to a calmer place, and then be able to a calmer place, and then be able to analyze something um cognitively than it analyze something um cognitively than it analyze something um cognitively than it is to try and prevent yourself from is to try and prevent yourself from is to try and prevent yourself from thinking about something, which is very thinking about something, which is very thinking about something, which is very hard. And in many cases, we need we do hard. And in many cases, we need we do hard. And in many cases, we need we do need to think about what's stressful. I need to think about what's stressful. I need to think about what's stressful. I mean, this is something we don't often mean, this is something we don't often mean, this is something we don't often acknowledge. People think, okay, we're acknowledge. People think, okay, we're acknowledge. People think, okay, we're going to go meditate or we're going to going to go meditate or we're going to going to go meditate or we're going to take a vacation. We're just going to take a vacation. We're just going to take a vacation. We're just going to step away. We're just going to take a step away. We're just going to take a step away. We're just going to take a deep breath. All sounds wonderful, deep breath. All sounds wonderful, deep breath. All sounds wonderful, right? But many times, the thing that right? But many times, the thing that right? But many times, the thing that we're stressing about is is critical to we're stressing about is is critical to we're stressing about is is critical to our well-being. It's important that we our well-being. It's important that we our well-being. It's important that we be able to think about this stuff. So be able to think about this stuff. So be able to think about this stuff. So that use the body to control the mind that use the body to control the mind that use the body to control the mind and place the mind in a in a better and place the mind in a in a better and place the mind in a in a better vantage point. That's the idea. vantage point. That's the idea. vantage point. That's the idea. >> Sorry to interrupt. If you are enjoying >> Sorry to interrupt. If you are enjoying >> Sorry to interrupt. If you are enjoying this content, there's loads more just this content, there's loads more just this content, there's loads more just like it on my channel. So please do take like it on my channel. So please do take like it on my channel. So please do take a moment to press subscribe, hit the a moment to press subscribe, hit the a moment to press subscribe, hit the notification bell, and now back to the notification bell, and now back to the notification bell, and now back to the conversation. conversation. conversation. Yeah, I really I really like that. I Yeah, I really I really like that. I Yeah, I really I really like that. I think it's so powerful for people and I think it's so powerful for people and I think it's so powerful for people and I think so many people will hear that think so many people will hear that think so many people will hear that Andrew and go, "Yeah, you know, when I Andrew and go, "Yeah, you know, when I Andrew and go, "Yeah, you know, when I feel feel feel anxious and I do some yoga or I go for a anxious and I do some yoga or I go for a anxious and I do some yoga or I go for a walk around the block, you know, I just walk around the block, you know, I just walk around the block, you know, I just don't feel the same when I come back." don't feel the same when I come back." don't feel the same when I come back." You know, you you are literally changing You know, you you are literally changing You know, you you are literally changing the way you experience life through that the way you experience life through that the way you experience life through that action. And I wanted to talk to you action. And I wanted to talk to you action. And I wanted to talk to you about something that again I've heard about something that again I've heard about something that again I've heard you speak about many times which is the you speak about many times which is the you speak about many times which is the idea that um you know grounded in idea that um you know grounded in idea that um you know grounded in neuroscience that it is neuroscience that it is neuroscience that it is actions and behavior first, actions and behavior first, actions and behavior first, thoughts and feelings second. thoughts and feelings second. thoughts and feelings second. >> Yeah. Um I definitely believe that we >> Yeah. Um I definitely believe that we >> Yeah. Um I definitely believe that we should put our actions first when it should put our actions first when it should put our actions first when it comes to taking control of our mental comes to taking control of our mental comes to taking control of our mental and physical health and performance. I and physical health and performance. I and physical health and performance. I want to be clear that I don't relegate want to be clear that I don't relegate want to be clear that I don't relegate feelings, emotions, and thinking. Um, feelings, emotions, and thinking. Um, feelings, emotions, and thinking. Um, I'm I've been open about this before, I'm I've been open about this before, I'm I've been open about this before, but I'll be open about again. I' I've but I'll be open about again. I' I've but I'll be open about again. I' I've through a lot of effort of my own and through a lot of effort of my own and through a lot of effort of my own and through great expense and challenge. I' through great expense and challenge. I' through great expense and challenge. I' I've I've been doing analysis for many I've I've been doing analysis for many I've I've been doing analysis for many decades. I uh got into this cuz I had I decades. I uh got into this cuz I had I decades. I uh got into this cuz I had I was a bit of a weward youth and I was was a bit of a weward youth and I was was a bit of a weward youth and I was forced to do it at first. I So, I just forced to do it at first. I So, I just forced to do it at first. I So, I just want to point out that I I want to point out that I I want to point out that I I wholeheartedly believe in the value of wholeheartedly believe in the value of wholeheartedly believe in the value of therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, exposure therapies, talk therapies. I exposure therapies, talk therapies. I exposure therapies, talk therapies. I think we are a social verbal species and think we are a social verbal species and think we are a social verbal species and there's tremendous value to journaling, there's tremendous value to journaling, there's tremendous value to journaling, tremendous value to thinking and to tremendous value to thinking and to tremendous value to thinking and to feeling our feelings. However, feelings feeling our feelings. However, feelings feeling our feelings. However, feelings are complicated and they can become are complicated and they can become are complicated and they can become their own trap. um being able to parse a their own trap. um being able to parse a their own trap. um being able to parse a hard emotional problem or being able to hard emotional problem or being able to hard emotional problem or being able to think about life in a way that's um from think about life in a way that's um from think about life in a way that's um from a good stance as a kind of a I I like to a good stance as a kind of a I I like to a good stance as a kind of a I I like to think about the stance of the nervous think about the stance of the nervous think about the stance of the nervous system more than the state because a system more than the state because a system more than the state because a stance allows you to move in different stance allows you to move in different stance allows you to move in different directions whereas a state implies that directions whereas a state implies that directions whereas a state implies that there's one ideal state to be in all the there's one ideal state to be in all the there's one ideal state to be in all the time which of course not I mean there's time which of course not I mean there's time which of course not I mean there's a time to be stressed angry sad in awe a time to be stressed angry sad in awe a time to be stressed angry sad in awe devastated I mean that's life that's devastated I mean that's life that's devastated I mean that's life that's actually what makes for a rich life but actually what makes for a rich life but actually what makes for a rich life but The ability to be in a good stance The ability to be in a good stance The ability to be in a good stance around all that means that when we are around all that means that when we are around all that means that when we are in a state of deep sadness or deep in a state of deep sadness or deep in a state of deep sadness or deep confusion or great happiness that we confusion or great happiness that we confusion or great happiness that we know that we will eventually transition know that we will eventually transition know that we will eventually transition out of that state and that and that's a out of that state and that and that's a out of that state and that and that's a manageable um idea that we're going to manageable um idea that we're going to manageable um idea that we're going to transition in and out of these states. transition in and out of these states. transition in and out of these states. One of the hallmarks of mental illness One of the hallmarks of mental illness One of the hallmarks of mental illness of different kinds is that people have of different kinds is that people have of different kinds is that people have horrible feelings and they feel like horrible feelings and they feel like horrible feelings and they feel like those horrible feelings are going to go those horrible feelings are going to go those horrible feelings are going to go on forever. That's one of the things on forever. That's one of the things on forever. That's one of the things that leads to suicidal depression and uh that leads to suicidal depression and uh that leads to suicidal depression and uh or chronic anxiety is people are you or chronic anxiety is people are you or chronic anxiety is people are you know told we're always told you know know told we're always told you know know told we're always told you know don't don't think about the future don't don't don't think about the future don't don't don't think about the future don't think about the past just be present think about the past just be present think about the past just be present well what if your present really is well what if your present really is well what if your present really is awful that that doesn't help much so the awful that that doesn't help much so the awful that that doesn't help much so the reason that I'm a fan of of physical reason that I'm a fan of of physical reason that I'm a fan of of physical tools is the following orienting towards tools is the following orienting towards tools is the following orienting towards action first and physical tools is the action first and physical tools is the action first and physical tools is the following first of all there is no following first of all there is no following first of all there is no fossil record whatsoever of the things fossil record whatsoever of the things fossil record whatsoever of the things that we feel or think none Your feelings that we feel or think none Your feelings that we feel or think none Your feelings and your thoughts actually are pretty and your thoughts actually are pretty and your thoughts actually are pretty meaningless in the long run, but what meaningless in the long run, but what meaningless in the long run, but what you do and what you say has a profound you do and what you say has a profound you do and what you say has a profound impact on you and other people. Second, impact on you and other people. Second, impact on you and other people. Second, using physical practices allows us to using physical practices allows us to using physical practices allows us to communicate with one another about communicate with one another about communicate with one another about tools. Thinking is tricky. I don't know tools. Thinking is tricky. I don't know tools. Thinking is tricky. I don't know what I'm thinking, excuse me, feeling what I'm thinking, excuse me, feeling what I'm thinking, excuse me, feeling half the time. How do I know what anyone half the time. How do I know what anyone half the time. How do I know what anyone else is feeling? You know, I have a else is feeling? You know, I have a else is feeling? You know, I have a colleague in psychiatry who says this. colleague in psychiatry who says this. colleague in psychiatry who says this. Most of the time we don't even know what Most of the time we don't even know what Most of the time we don't even know what we feel exactly, much less how someone we feel exactly, much less how someone we feel exactly, much less how someone else feels. And so if we were to enter a else feels. And so if we were to enter a else feels. And so if we were to enter a dialogue around how we're supposed to dialogue around how we're supposed to dialogue around how we're supposed to feel and control our feelings, well, now feel and control our feelings, well, now feel and control our feelings, well, now we're really moving into the realm of we're really moving into the realm of we're really moving into the realm of wishy-washy nothingness because I can't wishy-washy nothingness because I can't wishy-washy nothingness because I can't tell you what to do or how to think tell you what to do or how to think tell you what to do or how to think about something. But when we're talking about something. But when we're talking about something. But when we're talking about physical tools and using the body about physical tools and using the body about physical tools and using the body to influence the state of mind or the to influence the state of mind or the to influence the state of mind or the stance of the mind then we are we can stance of the mind then we are we can stance of the mind then we are we can talk we know if we're doing the same talk we know if we're doing the same talk we know if we're doing the same thing two inhales followed by an exhale thing two inhales followed by an exhale thing two inhales followed by an exhale panoramic vision light viewing these are panoramic vision light viewing these are panoramic vision light viewing these are tools that everybody can access. tools that everybody can access. tools that everybody can access. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so it it creates a whole different >> And so it it creates a whole different >> And so it it creates a whole different conversation. conversation. conversation. I also believe and I've had a lot of I also believe and I've had a lot of I also believe and I've had a lot of experience with the fact that there are experience with the fact that there are experience with the fact that there are times when things can feel so times when things can feel so times when things can feel so overwhelming and we are so back on our overwhelming and we are so back on our overwhelming and we are so back on our heels that we have to get outside of our heels that we have to get outside of our heels that we have to get outside of our head and the best way to do that is to head and the best way to do that is to head and the best way to do that is to get into physical practices that the the get into physical practices that the the get into physical practices that the the um imagery I like to use is that any um imagery I like to use is that any um imagery I like to use is that any moment we are either flatfooted forward moment we are either flatfooted forward moment we are either flatfooted forward center of mass which is kind of leaning center of mass which is kind of leaning center of mass which is kind of leaning into life and feeling strong or we're into life and feeling strong or we're into life and feeling strong or we're back on our heels. back on our heels. back on our heels. Many people wake up back on their heels. Many people wake up back on their heels. Many people wake up back on their heels. Many people feel back on their heels a Many people feel back on their heels a Many people feel back on their heels a lot of the time. So the question is how lot of the time. So the question is how lot of the time. So the question is how do you go from mentally and physically do you go from mentally and physically do you go from mentally and physically back on your heels to flatfooted stance back on your heels to flatfooted stance back on your heels to flatfooted stance and sometime and maintain the ability to and sometime and maintain the ability to and sometime and maintain the ability to go into forward center of mass? How do go into forward center of mass? How do go into forward center of mass? How do you do that? Well, you do that by you do that? Well, you do that by you do that? Well, you do that by controlling the this basic system in the controlling the this basic system in the controlling the this basic system in the body that we call the autonomic nervous body that we call the autonomic nervous body that we call the autonomic nervous system. It's a bit of a misnomer because system. It's a bit of a misnomer because system. It's a bit of a misnomer because autonomic means automatic, but you can autonomic means automatic, but you can autonomic means automatic, but you can think of it like a seessaw that on the think of it like a seessaw that on the think of it like a seessaw that on the one end is our ability to get into one end is our ability to get into one end is our ability to get into states of alertness and focus. And at states of alertness and focus. And at states of alertness and focus. And at the other end is the ability to relax the other end is the ability to relax the other end is the ability to relax and get into states of calm or sleep or and get into states of calm or sleep or and get into states of calm or sleep or um deep rest or focused but relaxed. um deep rest or focused but relaxed. um deep rest or focused but relaxed. Maybe that even seesaw would be focused Maybe that even seesaw would be focused Maybe that even seesaw would be focused but relaxed. And so much of become of but relaxed. And so much of become of but relaxed. And so much of become of being functional is the ability to move being functional is the ability to move being functional is the ability to move from alert to asleep because sleep is so from alert to asleep because sleep is so from alert to asleep because sleep is so key for our health of course or from key for our health of course or from key for our health of course or from sleep to getting up and getting outside sleep to getting up and getting outside sleep to getting up and getting outside and exercising. But a lot of people get and exercising. But a lot of people get and exercising. But a lot of people get trapped at one end of the seesaw or the trapped at one end of the seesaw or the trapped at one end of the seesaw or the other chronically activated or other chronically activated or other chronically activated or chronically exhausted. And the notion of chronically exhausted. And the notion of chronically exhausted. And the notion of the seessaw um is important here because the seessaw um is important here because the seessaw um is important here because it's not so much about your ability to it's not so much about your ability to it's not so much about your ability to be on either end. It's about the be on either end. It's about the be on either end. It's about the tightness of the hinge of that seessaw. tightness of the hinge of that seessaw. tightness of the hinge of that seessaw. What I'm talking about are tools that What I'm talking about are tools that What I'm talking about are tools that allow the seessaw to be calibrated so allow the seessaw to be calibrated so allow the seessaw to be calibrated so that it's very easy to go from sleep to that it's very easy to go from sleep to that it's very easy to go from sleep to alert, from alert to relaxed, from alert, from alert to relaxed, from alert, from alert to relaxed, from relaxed back to work, relaxed back to work, relaxed back to work, >> as opposed to it getting locked in one >> as opposed to it getting locked in one >> as opposed to it getting locked in one position. That's really the key. And so position. That's really the key. And so position. That's really the key. And so I I realize this is all um I'm talking I I realize this is all um I'm talking I I realize this is all um I'm talking all in an analogy now, but I think it all in an analogy now, but I think it all in an analogy now, but I think it I'm hoping it's worthwhile because we've I'm hoping it's worthwhile because we've I'm hoping it's worthwhile because we've heard so much about mindfulness, which heard so much about mindfulness, which heard so much about mindfulness, which is a wonderful concept. We hear about is a wonderful concept. We hear about is a wonderful concept. We hear about mental health. We hear about physical mental health. We hear about physical mental health. We hear about physical health. But it's never actually been health. But it's never actually been health. But it's never actually been defined what is a mentally healthy defined what is a mentally healthy defined what is a mentally healthy person, right? Usually when we're person, right? Usually when we're person, right? Usually when we're talking about mental health, we're talking about mental health, we're talking about mental health, we're talking about mental illness. So to me, talking about mental illness. So to me, talking about mental illness. So to me, a mentally healthy person and a a mentally healthy person and a a mentally healthy person and a physically healthy person is somebody physically healthy person is somebody physically healthy person is somebody that can be in action when they need to that can be in action when they need to that can be in action when they need to be in action, can relax when they need be in action, can relax when they need be in action, can relax when they need to relax, can focus when they need to to relax, can focus when they need to to relax, can focus when they need to focus, and can sleep when they need to focus, and can sleep when they need to focus, and can sleep when they need to sleep. That's a pretty darn good life. sleep. That's a pretty darn good life. sleep. That's a pretty darn good life. And you can go you can get a lot done And you can go you can get a lot done And you can go you can get a lot done and you can have very effective and you can have very effective and you can have very effective relationship to yourself and others with relationship to yourself and others with relationship to yourself and others with that kind of ability. And that ability that kind of ability. And that ability that kind of ability. And that ability is anchored in the nervous system. is anchored in the nervous system. is anchored in the nervous system. >> I have found whether with this patient >> I have found whether with this patient >> I have found whether with this patient or patients with depression over the or patients with depression over the or patients with depression over the years years years there's there's not a feeling that there's there's not a feeling that there's there's not a feeling that they're making progress in life. Okay? they're making progress in life. Okay? they're making progress in life. Okay? They're not moving forward. So years They're not moving forward. So years They're not moving forward. So years ago, I realized, okay, how can I help ago, I realized, okay, how can I help ago, I realized, okay, how can I help this patient this patient this patient feel as if they're making progress? feel as if they're making progress? feel as if they're making progress? Because a lot of the things they get Because a lot of the things they get Because a lot of the things they get asked to do or they read online, the asked to do or they read online, the asked to do or they read online, the truth is when you feel really, really truth is when you feel really, really truth is when you feel really, really low, you know, you're probably going to low, you know, you're probably going to low, you know, you're probably going to struggle to motivate yourself to get to struggle to motivate yourself to get to struggle to motivate yourself to get to the gym and move your body in a way the gym and move your body in a way the gym and move your body in a way that's going to increase your that's going to increase your that's going to increase your endorphins, for example. Right. endorphins, for example. Right. endorphins, for example. Right. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> So, I came up with this sort of five >> So, I came up with this sort of five >> So, I came up with this sort of five minute concept that I use myself. Uh, so minute concept that I use myself. Uh, so minute concept that I use myself. Uh, so I have a 5-minute strength workout every I have a 5-minute strength workout every I have a 5-minute strength workout every morning in my kitchen in my pajamas. But morning in my kitchen in my pajamas. But morning in my kitchen in my pajamas. But with many of my patients with with many of my patients with with many of my patients with depression, I said, "Well, what what is depression, I said, "Well, what what is depression, I said, "Well, what what is one thing that we can get you um what one thing that we can get you um what one thing that we can get you um what what is one thing you might want to do?" what is one thing you might want to do?" what is one thing you might want to do?" And I'd always personalize it to them. And I'd always personalize it to them. And I'd always personalize it to them. But I remember one suicidal patient, it But I remember one suicidal patient, it But I remember one suicidal patient, it was working out, right? They wouldn't go was working out, right? They wouldn't go was working out, right? They wouldn't go to a gym. They said they haven't got to a gym. They said they haven't got to a gym. They said they haven't got motivation. And I broke it right down. I motivation. And I broke it right down. I motivation. And I broke it right down. I said, "What would it look like if you said, "What would it look like if you said, "What would it look like if you did five minutes every morning?" And for did five minutes every morning?" And for did five minutes every morning?" And for that patient, they used to work out when that patient, they used to work out when that patient, they used to work out when they were teenagers. So they were quite they were teenagers. So they were quite they were teenagers. So they were quite familiar with that as a concept. So this familiar with that as a concept. So this familiar with that as a concept. So this person bought a kettle bell, kept the person bought a kettle bell, kept the person bought a kettle bell, kept the kettle bell in their kitchen. And again, kettle bell in their kitchen. And again, kettle bell in their kitchen. And again, this is not about the kettle bell. It's this is not about the kettle bell. It's this is not about the kettle bell. It's not about it being exercised. This is not about it being exercised. This is not about it being exercised. This is what that patient wanted. And you make what that patient wanted. And you make what that patient wanted. And you make it very clear in your book. There is no it very clear in your book. There is no it very clear in your book. There is no oneizefits-all, which I completely agree oneizefits-all, which I completely agree oneizefits-all, which I completely agree with as in terms of a solution. But we with as in terms of a solution. But we with as in terms of a solution. But we started off with saying, "Okay, what started off with saying, "Okay, what started off with saying, "Okay, what would it look like if every morning the would it look like if every morning the would it look like if every morning the first thing you do when you come in your first thing you do when you come in your first thing you do when you come in your kitchen, you literally pick up that kitchen, you literally pick up that kitchen, you literally pick up that kettle bell and you just swing it on and kettle bell and you just swing it on and kettle bell and you just swing it on and off for five minutes, right?" And I off for five minutes, right?" And I off for five minutes, right?" And I think we started with 2 minutes and think we started with 2 minutes and think we started with 2 minutes and built up to 5 minutes. I'm not kidding built up to 5 minutes. I'm not kidding built up to 5 minutes. I'm not kidding you, that was the start of all the you, that was the start of all the you, that was the start of all the changes because by doing that every changes because by doing that every changes because by doing that every morning morning morning >> cuz I I made it so simple that he could >> cuz I I made it so simple that he could >> cuz I I made it so simple that he could never really say he could do but he never really say he could do but he never really say he could do but he didn't say I don't have time or the didn't say I don't have time or the didn't say I don't have time or the motivation. I said, "Even if put it in motivation. I said, "Even if put it in motivation. I said, "Even if put it in your sink if you have to." So, you have your sink if you have to." So, you have your sink if you have to." So, you have to at least move it to get it. You know, to at least move it to get it. You know, to at least move it to get it. You know, I was really trying to help him go, "No, I was really trying to help him go, "No, I was really trying to help him go, "No, you have to pick that thing up." And my you have to pick that thing up." And my you have to pick that thing up." And my my feeling was was that doing that every my feeling was was that doing that every my feeling was was that doing that every day changed the way that he viewed day changed the way that he viewed day changed the way that he viewed himself. Instead of being someone who himself. Instead of being someone who himself. Instead of being someone who didn't have motivation and didn't have didn't have motivation and didn't have didn't have motivation and didn't have this ability to do anything, it's like this ability to do anything, it's like this ability to do anything, it's like no, he started doing that and within no, he started doing that and within no, he started doing that and within seven days, within 14 days, within 21 seven days, within 14 days, within 21 seven days, within 14 days, within 21 days, he's now someone who actually, days, he's now someone who actually, days, he's now someone who actually, yeah, man, I actually I can do stuff. yeah, man, I actually I can do stuff. yeah, man, I actually I can do stuff. And then yes, it's working on his And then yes, it's working on his And then yes, it's working on his muscles, his hormones are changing, his muscles, his hormones are changing, his muscles, his hormones are changing, his dopamine will be changing, maybe his dopamine will be changing, maybe his dopamine will be changing, maybe his serotonin is changing, but serotonin is changing, but serotonin is changing, but >> that was me trying to help him as a >> that was me trying to help him as a >> that was me trying to help him as a clinician, right? I didn't need to know clinician, right? I didn't need to know clinician, right? I didn't need to know what was the neuroscience going on. I'm what was the neuroscience going on. I'm what was the neuroscience going on. I'm just like, how do I help this person? just like, how do I help this person? just like, how do I help this person? What do you think might have been going What do you think might have been going What do you think might have been going on from a neuroscientific perspective? on from a neuroscientific perspective? on from a neuroscientific perspective? Yeah, I love that five minute idea Yeah, I love that five minute idea Yeah, I love that five minute idea because actually what you've just done because actually what you've just done because actually what you've just done in that effort cost equation that we are in that effort cost equation that we are in that effort cost equation that we are all kind of subject to is you've made all kind of subject to is you've made all kind of subject to is you've made the cost smaller and smaller and smaller the cost smaller and smaller and smaller the cost smaller and smaller and smaller and in some ways you've actually kept and in some ways you've actually kept and in some ways you've actually kept the reward constant, the reward of the reward constant, the reward of the reward constant, the reward of getting to do something which he wants getting to do something which he wants getting to do something which he wants to do like exercise, but you've made it to do like exercise, but you've made it to do like exercise, but you've made it even more accessible and even less even more accessible and even less even more accessible and even less effortful to do. So at until the point effortful to do. So at until the point effortful to do. So at until the point where it's a kind of inflection point where it's a kind of inflection point where it's a kind of inflection point where it was worth it for him and that where it was worth it for him and that where it was worth it for him and that will have been the initial cost for him will have been the initial cost for him will have been the initial cost for him but actually the cost will even have but actually the cost will even have but actually the cost will even have reduced over time because as something reduced over time because as something reduced over time because as something becomes a habit it becomes almost easier becomes a habit it becomes almost easier becomes a habit it becomes almost easier to do than not do. So the hardest change to do than not do. So the hardest change to do than not do. So the hardest change is that first change which you kind of is that first change which you kind of is that first change which you kind of enabled um by with that intervention. enabled um by with that intervention. enabled um by with that intervention. >> That's interesting. when it becomes a >> That's interesting. when it becomes a >> That's interesting. when it becomes a habit, it's harder to not do than do. habit, it's harder to not do than do. habit, it's harder to not do than do. That's a really interesting concept, That's a really interesting concept, That's a really interesting concept, isn't it? I guess that's how I would isn't it? I guess that's how I would isn't it? I guess that's how I would even look at my even look at my even look at my morning strength workout now. It's been morning strength workout now. It's been morning strength workout now. It's been it's been over 5 years since I've been it's been over 5 years since I've been it's been over 5 years since I've been doing this. And it's just five minutes doing this. And it's just five minutes doing this. And it's just five minutes while my coffee brews every morning. You while my coffee brews every morning. You while my coffee brews every morning. You know, you you you may not have heard me know, you you you may not have heard me know, you you you may not have heard me talk about this before, but essentially talk about this before, but essentially talk about this before, but essentially while the coffee brews for 5 minutes, while the coffee brews for 5 minutes, while the coffee brews for 5 minutes, I'm in my my pajamas and I'm doing a I'm in my my pajamas and I'm doing a I'm in my my pajamas and I'm doing a strength workout in the kitchen. I'm not strength workout in the kitchen. I'm not strength workout in the kitchen. I'm not going on email or Instagram in those going on email or Instagram in those going on email or Instagram in those five minutes. And I actually think my five minutes. And I actually think my five minutes. And I actually think my morning would feel really weird now if I morning would feel really weird now if I morning would feel really weird now if I didn't do it. didn't do it. didn't do it. >> Do you ever skip it? >> Do you ever skip it? >> Do you ever skip it? >> Very, very rarely. Even when I travel, >> Very, very rarely. Even when I travel, >> Very, very rarely. Even when I travel, and I've been traveling a lot recently, and I've been traveling a lot recently, and I've been traveling a lot recently, I even take my cafeteriier with me. I even take my cafeteriier with me. I even take my cafeteriier with me. Right. And my Right. And my Right. And my >> That's your timer, so you've got to >> That's your timer, so you've got to >> That's your timer, so you've got to >> Yeah. But what it does is when I'm on >> Yeah. But what it does is when I'm on >> Yeah. But what it does is when I'm on the road and I've been doing a lot of the road and I've been doing a lot of the road and I've been doing a lot of interviews for my book recently, so I've interviews for my book recently, so I've interviews for my book recently, so I've been on the road a lot in a hotel room been on the road a lot in a hotel room been on the road a lot in a hotel room in the morning cuz I drink black coffee. in the morning cuz I drink black coffee. in the morning cuz I drink black coffee. It's easy. Just boil a kettle and you It's easy. Just boil a kettle and you It's easy. Just boil a kettle and you make it and I put the time on and I do make it and I put the time on and I do make it and I put the time on and I do it in a hotel room. So for me, it's it in a hotel room. So for me, it's it in a hotel room. So for me, it's actually this little um habit that I actually this little um habit that I actually this little um habit that I take around with me to sort of ground me take around with me to sort of ground me take around with me to sort of ground me and center me every morning. And yeah, and center me every morning. And yeah, and center me every morning. And yeah, I'm just wondering because, you know, we I'm just wondering because, you know, we I'm just wondering because, you know, we started off this conversation talking started off this conversation talking started off this conversation talking about this idea that that permeates your about this idea that that permeates your about this idea that that permeates your entire book, which is whatever's going entire book, which is whatever's going entire book, which is whatever's going on, whatever we're doing that's on, whatever we're doing that's on, whatever we're doing that's improving our mental well-being, it's improving our mental well-being, it's improving our mental well-being, it's always happening through the brain and always happening through the brain and always happening through the brain and the nervous system. So, I'm I'm truly the nervous system. So, I'm I'm truly the nervous system. So, I'm I'm truly fascinated as to what these five minute fascinated as to what these five minute fascinated as to what these five minute actions are doing. Can you hypothesize actions are doing. Can you hypothesize actions are doing. Can you hypothesize what kind of brain chemicals might be what kind of brain chemicals might be what kind of brain chemicals might be changing? What will be changing are changing? What will be changing are changing? What will be changing are specific circuits in the brain that are specific circuits in the brain that are specific circuits in the brain that are involved in this kind of instantiation involved in this kind of instantiation involved in this kind of instantiation and then maintenance of habits which are and then maintenance of habits which are and then maintenance of habits which are sort of two different circuits. So the sort of two different circuits. So the sort of two different circuits. So the first time you do something effortful. first time you do something effortful. first time you do something effortful. It involves regions in the brain that It involves regions in the brain that It involves regions in the brain that work on that computation. How costly is work on that computation. How costly is work on that computation. How costly is it? How rewarding is it? Is it worth it it? How rewarding is it? Is it worth it it? How rewarding is it? Is it worth it to me? And those are the regions we know to me? And those are the regions we know to me? And those are the regions we know from animal experiments and also human from animal experiments and also human from animal experiments and also human experiments that say if you have an experiments that say if you have an experiments that say if you have an injury in them, it can really change injury in them, it can really change injury in them, it can really change this costbenefit calculation. So that's this costbenefit calculation. So that's this costbenefit calculation. So that's how we know that they're related. And it how we know that they're related. And it how we know that they're related. And it does involve neurotransmitters like does involve neurotransmitters like does involve neurotransmitters like dopamine, but not only. So it's really dopamine, but not only. So it's really dopamine, but not only. So it's really about the kind of communication between about the kind of communication between about the kind of communication between these different regions that help you these different regions that help you these different regions that help you make that decision. But as something make that decision. But as something make that decision. But as something becomes a habit actually the circuits becomes a habit actually the circuits becomes a habit actually the circuits change from kind of decisionmaking change from kind of decisionmaking change from kind of decisionmaking circuits which often involve you know circuits which often involve you know circuits which often involve you know weighing up possible options. It's a weighing up possible options. It's a weighing up possible options. It's a little bit more effortful for the brain little bit more effortful for the brain little bit more effortful for the brain that is um to these quite automatic that is um to these quite automatic that is um to these quite automatic circuits that make something a habit. circuits that make something a habit. circuits that make something a habit. You hear actually most about these You hear actually most about these You hear actually most about these circuits places like the nucleus circuits places like the nucleus circuits places like the nucleus encumbent dopamine rich regions of the encumbent dopamine rich regions of the encumbent dopamine rich regions of the brain because of their involvement in brain because of their involvement in brain because of their involvement in drug addiction. But it's not just drug drug addiction. But it's not just drug drug addiction. But it's not just drug addiction. These are the circuits that addiction. These are the circuits that addiction. These are the circuits that help us do things again and again help us do things again and again help us do things again and again without using all of our cognitive without using all of our cognitive without using all of our cognitive resources to focus on them. So we move resources to focus on them. So we move resources to focus on them. So we move into this other kind of mode of into this other kind of mode of into this other kind of mode of processing in the brain. Something that processing in the brain. Something that processing in the brain. Something that can be ongoing almost in the background can be ongoing almost in the background can be ongoing almost in the background while our brain is doing other things or while our brain is doing other things or while our brain is doing other things or can be focused on other things. So, this can be focused on other things. So, this can be focused on other things. So, this is the same process that when you're is the same process that when you're is the same process that when you're learning to drive learning to drive learning to drive um a manual gear car or for the uh um a manual gear car or for the uh um a manual gear car or for the uh transatlantic audience, uh a stick in transatlantic audience, uh a stick in transatlantic audience, uh a stick in those first few driving lessons, you're those first few driving lessons, you're those first few driving lessons, you're utilizing it's it's hard work. You know, utilizing it's it's hard work. You know, utilizing it's it's hard work. You know, you're trying to figure out how to time you're trying to figure out how to time you're trying to figure out how to time the clutch with the gear changing the clutch with the gear changing the clutch with the gear changing without stalling the car. without stalling the car. without stalling the car. >> Yeah. Like the speed of coming up, all >> Yeah. Like the speed of coming up, all >> Yeah. Like the speed of coming up, all those things. those things. those things. >> That's presumably quite a lot of effort >> That's presumably quite a lot of effort >> That's presumably quite a lot of effort for your brain. Boy, can you not think for your brain. Boy, can you not think for your brain. Boy, can you not think about anything else when you're learning about anything else when you're learning about anything else when you're learning to drive a manual car? to drive a manual car? to drive a manual car? >> Exactly. But then at some point it >> Exactly. But then at some point it >> Exactly. But then at some point it becomes automatic and then when you have becomes automatic and then when you have becomes automatic and then when you have to teach someone how do you do that? You to teach someone how do you do that? You to teach someone how do you do that? You don't actually you don't actually know don't actually you don't actually know don't actually you don't actually know how you do it. how you do it. how you do it. >> Yeah. In fact, you might become worse if >> Yeah. In fact, you might become worse if >> Yeah. In fact, you might become worse if you start thinking about it like when you start thinking about it like when you start thinking about it like when you're walking downstairs and you kind you're walking downstairs and you kind you're walking downstairs and you kind of forget. of forget. of forget. >> Yeah. It's like, you know, golfers when >> Yeah. It's like, you know, golfers when >> Yeah. It's like, you know, golfers when they choke in the final few holes of a they choke in the final few holes of a they choke in the final few holes of a major, you know, one of the theories major, you know, one of the theories major, you know, one of the theories which I I think makes the most sense to which I I think makes the most sense to which I I think makes the most sense to me is that instead of doing something me is that instead of doing something me is that instead of doing something that's just habituated and automatic, that's just habituated and automatic, that's just habituated and automatic, they're just looking at the hole. they're just looking at the hole. they're just looking at the hole. They're swinging the club. They're now They're swinging the club. They're now They're swinging the club. They're now trying to control every aspect. This trying to control every aspect. This trying to control every aspect. This matters. I've been training for this matters. I've been training for this matters. I've been training for this since I was four years old. And suddenly since I was four years old. And suddenly since I was four years old. And suddenly they can't actually swing the golf club they can't actually swing the golf club they can't actually swing the golf club anymore because they're now overly anymore because they're now overly anymore because they're now overly thinking about it. This is the same thinking about it. This is the same thinking about it. This is the same principle, right? principle, right? principle, right? >> Exactly. Yeah. It's a shift to a they're >> Exactly. Yeah. It's a shift to a they're >> Exactly. Yeah. It's a shift to a they're often actually very proximal next to often actually very proximal next to often actually very proximal next to each other anatomical brain regions but each other anatomical brain regions but each other anatomical brain regions but they are involved in these two kind of they are involved in these two kind of they are involved in these two kind of complmentary action processes processes complmentary action processes processes complmentary action processes processes that support our action. One of them that support our action. One of them that support our action. One of them very effortful involves lots of very effortful involves lots of very effortful involves lots of cognitive um control things like that. cognitive um control things like that. cognitive um control things like that. One of them automatic habitual and so One of them automatic habitual and so One of them automatic habitual and so on. When we think about these four um on. When we think about these four um on. When we think about these four um brain processes which of course are are brain processes which of course are are brain processes which of course are are linked pleasure, pain, motivation and linked pleasure, pain, motivation and linked pleasure, pain, motivation and learning, learning, learning, I'm just thinking that a lot of people I'm just thinking that a lot of people I'm just thinking that a lot of people are trying to change their habits, okay are trying to change their habits, okay are trying to change their habits, okay at various stages in their life. They're at various stages in their life. They're at various stages in their life. They're trying to implement trying to implement trying to implement um certain things and so initially when um certain things and so initially when um certain things and so initially when we try and implement those things, it we try and implement those things, it we try and implement those things, it can feel hard. So let's let's use that can feel hard. So let's let's use that can feel hard. So let's let's use that five minute workout for that patient, five minute workout for that patient, five minute workout for that patient, right? as a as a model. right? as a as a model. right? as a as a model. The patient feels apathy. The patient feels apathy. The patient feels apathy. They feel indifferent. They don't have They feel indifferent. They don't have They feel indifferent. They don't have motivation. motivation. motivation. They start doing something where They start doing something where They start doing something where together we've lowered the cost right together we've lowered the cost right together we've lowered the cost right down. Hey, hey, this is super easy. Even down. Hey, hey, this is super easy. Even down. Hey, hey, this is super easy. Even just do one minute. Okay. Right. So, just do one minute. Okay. Right. So, just do one minute. Okay. Right. So, they do that. So, we've lowered the they do that. So, we've lowered the they do that. So, we've lowered the cost. So, they start doing it. cost. So, they start doing it. cost. So, they start doing it. And presumably at some point those And presumably at some point those And presumably at some point those endorphins from, you know, swinging a endorphins from, you know, swinging a endorphins from, you know, swinging a kettle bell will start to be released, kettle bell will start to be released, kettle bell will start to be released, you know, so it's going to help you feel you know, so it's going to help you feel you know, so it's going to help you feel good. So it's going to perhaps give you good. So it's going to perhaps give you good. So it's going to perhaps give you some pleasure. some pleasure. some pleasure. >> Yeah. And it may become much more kind >> Yeah. And it may become much more kind >> Yeah. And it may become much more kind of self-reinforcing of self-reinforcing of self-reinforcing than it would have been before. Because than it would have been before. Because than it would have been before. Because before you had to kind of imagine that before you had to kind of imagine that before you had to kind of imagine that it would be good. You probably didn't it would be good. You probably didn't it would be good. You probably didn't even have that solid a concept of how even have that solid a concept of how even have that solid a concept of how good it would be, whether it would be at good it would be, whether it would be at good it would be, whether it would be at all. You might have been actually quite all. You might have been actually quite all. You might have been actually quite uncertain. And as you experience it, if uncertain. And as you experience it, if uncertain. And as you experience it, if it is good, your estimate of that kind it is good, your estimate of that kind it is good, your estimate of that kind of future feeling becomes more and more of future feeling becomes more and more of future feeling becomes more and more and more precise statistically. And so and more precise statistically. And so and more precise statistically. And so you are able to predict just how good it you are able to predict just how good it you are able to predict just how good it will be and the likelihood that it will will be and the likelihood that it will will be and the likelihood that it will be good much better. That makes it more be good much better. That makes it more be good much better. That makes it more rewarding. And presumably that then rewarding. And presumably that then rewarding. And presumably that then speaks to this idea that if you want to speaks to this idea that if you want to speaks to this idea that if you want to increase the movement in your life, increase the movement in your life, increase the movement in your life, whether it's for your mental well-being whether it's for your mental well-being whether it's for your mental well-being or your physical health, not that we or your physical health, not that we or your physical health, not that we could separate them as as cleanly as could separate them as as cleanly as could separate them as as cleanly as that. Ultimately, you want to find that. Ultimately, you want to find that. Ultimately, you want to find something that you do find enjoyable. something that you do find enjoyable. something that you do find enjoyable. >> Yeah. I think it's a a much much harder >> Yeah. I think it's a a much much harder >> Yeah. I think it's a a much much harder road to try to engage in something that road to try to engage in something that road to try to engage in something that you kind of conceptually know is good you kind of conceptually know is good you kind of conceptually know is good for you, but that you get literally no for you, but that you get literally no for you, but that you get literally no enjoyment out of. It's possible. you enjoyment out of. It's possible. you enjoyment out of. It's possible. you know, you really have to work your kind know, you really have to work your kind know, you really have to work your kind of motivation system hard. There are of motivation system hard. There are of motivation system hard. There are some highly highly like motivated people some highly highly like motivated people some highly highly like motivated people who can ignore the cost of that, who who can ignore the cost of that, who who can ignore the cost of that, who engage in it, but boy is that a rough engage in it, but boy is that a rough engage in it, but boy is that a rough road to go down. road to go down. road to go down. >> Why that movement snack um concept is >> Why that movement snack um concept is >> Why that movement snack um concept is something that I'm so passionate about. something that I'm so passionate about. something that I'm so passionate about. >> Movement snack. Yeah, I love that term. >> Movement snack. Yeah, I love that term. >> Movement snack. Yeah, I love that term. >> Yeah, because it's a it simplifies >> Yeah, because it's a it simplifies >> Yeah, because it's a it simplifies movement right down. movement right down. movement right down. It's helped me no end. It's helped I'm It's helped me no end. It's helped I'm It's helped me no end. It's helped I'm going to say thousands of my patients going to say thousands of my patients going to say thousands of my patients over the years because I think it does over the years because I think it does over the years because I think it does something beyond what we might something beyond what we might something beyond what we might hypothesize that movement is doing. So hypothesize that movement is doing. So hypothesize that movement is doing. So we often look at these things. Oh, you we often look at these things. Oh, you we often look at these things. Oh, you know when you move it's going to release know when you move it's going to release know when you move it's going to release my in your body. It's got an my in your body. It's got an my in your body. It's got an anti-inflammatory component. It's going anti-inflammatory component. It's going anti-inflammatory component. It's going to help your muscles which is then going to help your muscles which is then going to help your muscles which is then going to help your insulin sensitivity. I to help your insulin sensitivity. I to help your insulin sensitivity. I don't disagree with any of these things. don't disagree with any of these things. don't disagree with any of these things. >> Sure. But you think it does this kind of >> Sure. But you think it does this kind of >> Sure. But you think it does this kind of selfefficacy thing where it like makes selfefficacy thing where it like makes selfefficacy thing where it like makes you realize you can do it. you realize you can do it. you realize you can do it. >> Yeah. I think for me at least my >> Yeah. I think for me at least my >> Yeah. I think for me at least my observations are that that might be the observations are that that might be the observations are that that might be the gold behind some of these things. Don't gold behind some of these things. Don't gold behind some of these things. Don't get me wrong, those other biochemical get me wrong, those other biochemical get me wrong, those other biochemical changes for your physical health are changes for your physical health are changes for your physical health are fantastic. But I think that's what it fantastic. But I think that's what it fantastic. But I think that's what it does, you know, and I I think it maybe does, you know, and I I think it maybe does, you know, and I I think it maybe targets that motivation piece and makes targets that motivation piece and makes targets that motivation piece and makes people feel that they can do stuff. people feel that they can do stuff. people feel that they can do stuff. >> Yeah, I think you're right about that. I >> Yeah, I think you're right about that. I >> Yeah, I think you're right about that. I think it is motivation that becomes the think it is motivation that becomes the think it is motivation that becomes the crux. You know, the the kind of maybe crux. You know, the the kind of maybe crux. You know, the the kind of maybe it's a little bit a little bit of it's a little bit a little bit of it's a little bit a little bit of pleasure, a little bit of a prediction pleasure, a little bit of a prediction pleasure, a little bit of a prediction error, but actually I think that error, but actually I think that error, but actually I think that >> getting people able to do something that >> getting people able to do something that >> getting people able to do something that they want to do kind of finding access they want to do kind of finding access they want to do kind of finding access into their motivation system could make into their motivation system could make into their motivation system could make all it could be really black and white. all it could be really black and white. all it could be really black and white. It could make you all of a sudden It could make you all of a sudden It could make you all of a sudden realize you can do things, you can feel realize you can do things, you can feel realize you can do things, you can feel motivated, you can change things and so motivated, you can change things and so motivated, you can change things and so on. on. on. In your book, you talk about this term In your book, you talk about this term In your book, you talk about this term mental health and you also sort of split mental health and you also sort of split mental health and you also sort of split it up in various places to, you know, it up in various places to, you know, it up in various places to, you know, mental health is this broad term. mental health is this broad term. mental health is this broad term. There's mental illness within that, but There's mental illness within that, but There's mental illness within that, but I guess there's also mental well-being. I guess there's also mental well-being. I guess there's also mental well-being. I don't know how you feel about this. I don't know how you feel about this. I don't know how you feel about this. I've always struggled with the term I've always struggled with the term I've always struggled with the term mental health. I know it's commonly used mental health. I know it's commonly used mental health. I know it's commonly used and I've used it as well, but I I would and I've used it as well, but I I would and I've used it as well, but I I would say it never really connects with me. say it never really connects with me. say it never really connects with me. like I never really intuitively know like I never really intuitively know like I never really intuitively know what does mental health mean and of what does mental health mean and of what does mental health mean and of course that will be because of my course that will be because of my course that will be because of my perception of the world and what perception of the world and what perception of the world and what associations I have with that term. How associations I have with that term. How associations I have with that term. How do you see that term and how do you see do you see that term and how do you see do you see that term and how do you see the differences between mental illness, the differences between mental illness, the differences between mental illness, mental well-being and you know h how do mental well-being and you know h how do mental well-being and you know h how do you sort of pass those all together in you sort of pass those all together in you sort of pass those all together in your brain? your brain? your brain? >> I thought very deliberately about >> I thought very deliberately about >> I thought very deliberately about whether or not to use the phrase mental whether or not to use the phrase mental whether or not to use the phrase mental health. I think it gets thrown about health. I think it gets thrown about health. I think it gets thrown about Yeah. in all kinds of different ways and Yeah. in all kinds of different ways and Yeah. in all kinds of different ways and sometimes used interchangeably with sometimes used interchangeably with sometimes used interchangeably with mental illness which is really mental illness which is really mental illness which is really unhelpful. But I also have some problems unhelpful. But I also have some problems unhelpful. But I also have some problems with the idea of mental well-being or with the idea of mental well-being or with the idea of mental well-being or well-being in general, which is probably well-being in general, which is probably well-being in general, which is probably why I went with mental health because why I went with mental health because why I went with mental health because actually I think there is value. For actually I think there is value. For actually I think there is value. For example, if you are in a really low example, if you are in a really low example, if you are in a really low state into feeling just healthy, not state into feeling just healthy, not state into feeling just healthy, not necessarily great, not necessarily necessarily great, not necessarily necessarily great, not necessarily splendid, not any of those other kind splendid, not any of those other kind splendid, not any of those other kind of, you know, well-being type terms, but of, you know, well-being type terms, but of, you know, well-being type terms, but actually the ability to function is the actually the ability to function is the actually the ability to function is the biggest difference between mental health biggest difference between mental health biggest difference between mental health and a lack of mental health. And I and a lack of mental health. And I and a lack of mental health. And I actually think that boundary is the kind actually think that boundary is the kind actually think that boundary is the kind of critical boundary and that's where I of critical boundary and that's where I of critical boundary and that's where I wanted to write my book. So it's also wanted to write my book. So it's also wanted to write my book. So it's also about within mental health how you can about within mental health how you can about within mental health how you can feel better. But really a lot of what feel better. But really a lot of what feel better. But really a lot of what matters to most people all of us will matters to most people all of us will matters to most people all of us will have either you know known someone who have either you know known someone who have either you know known someone who experiences a mental health condition or experiences a mental health condition or experiences a mental health condition or experienced one ourselves is how to get experienced one ourselves is how to get experienced one ourselves is how to get over that boundary into mental health. over that boundary into mental health. over that boundary into mental health. >> Many people would say that our mental >> Many people would say that our mental >> Many people would say that our mental health is currently declining. health is currently declining. health is currently declining. You've written this wonderful book on You've written this wonderful book on You've written this wonderful book on mental health. Um, do you think it's mental health. Um, do you think it's mental health. Um, do you think it's fair to say that as a society things are fair to say that as a society things are fair to say that as a society things are getting worse or do you think there's getting worse or do you think there's getting worse or do you think there's other things that explain that? other things that explain that? other things that explain that? >> I'm very torn on that. There is data to >> I'm very torn on that. There is data to >> I'm very torn on that. There is data to suggest that more and more people are suggest that more and more people are suggest that more and more people are diagnosed with a mental health condition diagnosed with a mental health condition diagnosed with a mental health condition all the time, especially younger people, all the time, especially younger people, all the time, especially younger people, but there are a lot of problems with but there are a lot of problems with but there are a lot of problems with that data. So, some of it is a good that data. So, some of it is a good that data. So, some of it is a good thing. It means people are accessing thing. It means people are accessing thing. It means people are accessing services, accessing diagnosis when they services, accessing diagnosis when they services, accessing diagnosis when they might not have in the past. Some of it might not have in the past. Some of it might not have in the past. Some of it means, you know, perhaps you might have means, you know, perhaps you might have means, you know, perhaps you might have felt shame for feeling this way before felt shame for feeling this way before felt shame for feeling this way before and now people are able to kind of come and now people are able to kind of come and now people are able to kind of come forward, seek help, get treatment for forward, seek help, get treatment for forward, seek help, get treatment for it, and that looks like a rise in rates it, and that looks like a rise in rates it, and that looks like a rise in rates of mental health diagnosis. So that of mental health diagnosis. So that of mental health diagnosis. So that explains some of it, but I suppose if explains some of it, but I suppose if explains some of it, but I suppose if you really dig down, I don't think it you really dig down, I don't think it you really dig down, I don't think it explains all of it. There's still data explains all of it. There's still data explains all of it. There's still data suggesting that if you ask people the suggesting that if you ask people the suggesting that if you ask people the same exact questions, especially young same exact questions, especially young same exact questions, especially young people, especially young females, over people, especially young females, over people, especially young females, over time, their general well-being, general time, their general well-being, general time, their general well-being, general sense of mental health does seem to be sense of mental health does seem to be sense of mental health does seem to be worse than it used to be. So, it's worse than it used to be. So, it's worse than it used to be. So, it's perhaps not as dramatic as some of the perhaps not as dramatic as some of the perhaps not as dramatic as some of the graphs would show, but it is happening, graphs would show, but it is happening, graphs would show, but it is happening, and I think we don't really know why. Do and I think we don't really know why. Do and I think we don't really know why. Do you have any hypotheses as to what the you have any hypotheses as to what the you have any hypotheses as to what the big things are in society that might be big things are in society that might be big things are in society that might be contributing to this? contributing to this? contributing to this? >> I think it may be a lot of little things >> I think it may be a lot of little things >> I think it may be a lot of little things in fact. So many of the young people in fact. So many of the young people in fact. So many of the young people tested at the moment are people who tested at the moment are people who tested at the moment are people who experienced the pandemic at very experienced the pandemic at very experienced the pandemic at very critical ages in brain development which critical ages in brain development which critical ages in brain development which means they were deprived of means they were deprived of means they were deprived of socialization at really critical socialization at really critical socialization at really critical periods. it means they experienced periods. it means they experienced periods. it means they experienced something quite traumatic at a very something quite traumatic at a very something quite traumatic at a very critical period and so that will critical period and so that will critical period and so that will definitely have had a knock-on effect on definitely have had a knock-on effect on definitely have had a knock-on effect on long-term mental health. So I think long-term mental health. So I think long-term mental health. So I think that's kind of one contributor maybe in that's kind of one contributor maybe in that's kind of one contributor maybe in that case not a very small contributor. that case not a very small contributor. that case not a very small contributor. I also think there's a role you know I also think there's a role you know I also think there's a role you know potential role for the conceptualization potential role for the conceptualization potential role for the conceptualization of mental health problems in and of of mental health problems in and of of mental health problems in and of themselves. So it sounds very complex themselves. So it sounds very complex themselves. So it sounds very complex but this is an idea that has gained but this is an idea that has gained but this is an idea that has gained traction in my field that actual traction in my field that actual traction in my field that actual awareness of mental health can sometimes awareness of mental health can sometimes awareness of mental health can sometimes make mental health problems worse. So it make mental health problems worse. So it make mental health problems worse. So it can make you aware of your symptoms but can make you aware of your symptoms but can make you aware of your symptoms but it can also make you kind of focus on it can also make you kind of focus on it can also make you kind of focus on your symptoms consolidate your symptoms your symptoms consolidate your symptoms your symptoms consolidate your symptoms perhaps enhance your symptoms especially perhaps enhance your symptoms especially perhaps enhance your symptoms especially in social settings in adolescence. So in social settings in adolescence. So in social settings in adolescence. So this is a kind of testable hypothesis this is a kind of testable hypothesis this is a kind of testable hypothesis that I would say has not been proven by that I would say has not been proven by that I would say has not been proven by any means but is a kind of one any means but is a kind of one any means but is a kind of one reasonable explanation for why there reasonable explanation for why there reasonable explanation for why there might be especially kind of might be especially kind of might be especially kind of concentrations of mental health problems concentrations of mental health problems concentrations of mental health problems emerging in some people. emerging in some people. emerging in some people. >> Yeah, it's really really interesting. I >> Yeah, it's really really interesting. I >> Yeah, it's really really interesting. I think it's pretty reasonable to think think it's pretty reasonable to think think it's pretty reasonable to think that for some people that may well be that for some people that may well be that for some people that may well be the case. I I think it's reasonable and the case. I I think it's reasonable and the case. I I think it's reasonable and I think one of the reasons why it's kind I think one of the reasons why it's kind I think one of the reasons why it's kind of plausible is because this can happen of plausible is because this can happen of plausible is because this can happen even with physical symptoms. So we know even with physical symptoms. So we know even with physical symptoms. So we know that in certain social settings if for that in certain social settings if for that in certain social settings if for example you know the kind of classic example you know the kind of classic example you know the kind of classic example is often teenage girls but it example is often teenage girls but it example is often teenage girls but it really doesn't have to be. It can be really doesn't have to be. It can be really doesn't have to be. It can be kind of any concentrated intense social kind of any concentrated intense social kind of any concentrated intense social setting. Often in adolescence, you can setting. Often in adolescence, you can setting. Often in adolescence, you can see a transmission of physical symptoms see a transmission of physical symptoms see a transmission of physical symptoms in certain communities. Um, poratively in certain communities. Um, poratively in certain communities. Um, poratively sometimes called like mass hysteria, but sometimes called like mass hysteria, but sometimes called like mass hysteria, but actually it's a real process that is not actually it's a real process that is not actually it's a real process that is not conscious that can just happen in conscious that can just happen in conscious that can just happen in experiencing someone else with very very experiencing someone else with very very experiencing someone else with very very like kind of profoundly different like kind of profoundly different like kind of profoundly different physical symptoms. You can have a kind physical symptoms. You can have a kind physical symptoms. You can have a kind of contagious effect. of contagious effect. of contagious effect. >> Yeah. And and we we see this in all >> Yeah. And and we we see this in all >> Yeah. And and we we see this in all kinds of different things. You know, we kinds of different things. You know, we kinds of different things. You know, we are social animals and that we respond are social animals and that we respond are social animals and that we respond to what the people around us are doing to what the people around us are doing to what the people around us are doing and what they're feeling. You know, and what they're feeling. You know, and what they're feeling. You know, there's studies showing that when you there's studies showing that when you there's studies showing that when you walk or run in groups, your cadence and walk or run in groups, your cadence and walk or run in groups, your cadence and rhythm starts to become more and more rhythm starts to become more and more rhythm starts to become more and more similar. similar. similar. >> Yeah. Synchronized. >> Yeah. Synchronized. >> Yeah. Synchronized. >> Synchronized. Yeah. Which is >> Synchronized. Yeah. Which is >> Synchronized. Yeah. Which is fascinating. And you know that the idea fascinating. And you know that the idea fascinating. And you know that the idea that we're social animals and the fact that we're social animals and the fact that we're social animals and the fact that that that in the lockdowns in the lockdowns in the lockdowns there may well have been and still be a there may well have been and still be a there may well have been and still be a serious impact on certain people from serious impact on certain people from serious impact on certain people from that isolation. I know you mentioned it that isolation. I know you mentioned it that isolation. I know you mentioned it in certain young people in certain young people in certain young people >> but we we've seen this in a lot of the >> but we we've seen this in a lot of the >> but we we've seen this in a lot of the elderly as well in older people who elderly as well in older people who elderly as well in older people who literally changed in those few months of literally changed in those few months of literally changed in those few months of lockdown and they've never returned. I lockdown and they've never returned. I lockdown and they've never returned. I remember so clearly maybe between the remember so clearly maybe between the remember so clearly maybe between the first and the second lockdown I went to first and the second lockdown I went to first and the second lockdown I went to my local leisure center to go for a swim my local leisure center to go for a swim my local leisure center to go for a swim and I hadn't seen that uh the manager and I hadn't seen that uh the manager and I hadn't seen that uh the manager for for months we had a chat and he goes for for months we had a chat and he goes for for months we had a chat and he goes man people have changed he says I used man people have changed he says I used man people have changed he says I used to see 6 months ago these like 15 60 to see 6 months ago these like 15 60 to see 6 months ago these like 15 60 year olds they'd come in they'd be year olds they'd come in they'd be year olds they'd come in they'd be chatty they'd be talking he says then a chatty they'd be talking he says then a chatty they'd be talking he says then a they're not coming in and when they do they're not coming in and when they do they're not coming in and when they do they're withdrawn they're not looking at they're withdrawn they're not looking at they're withdrawn they're not looking at me in the eye you know we we we we me in the eye you know we we we we me in the eye you know we we we we sometimes don't think enough about how sometimes don't think enough about how sometimes don't think enough about how important that social interaction is for important that social interaction is for important that social interaction is for our physical and mental wellbeing. And our physical and mental wellbeing. And our physical and mental wellbeing. And it reminds me of what you were saying it reminds me of what you were saying it reminds me of what you were saying before about laughter. Laughing with before about laughter. Laughing with before about laughter. Laughing with friends can make you go longer on a wall friends can make you go longer on a wall friends can make you go longer on a wall sit. Laughing with friends, you write sit. Laughing with friends, you write sit. Laughing with friends, you write about in your book reduces pain. And you about in your book reduces pain. And you about in your book reduces pain. And you you put in a hypothesis there, I think you put in a hypothesis there, I think you put in a hypothesis there, I think one of your colleagues, that opioid one of your colleagues, that opioid one of your colleagues, that opioid activity may be a safety signal, calming activity may be a safety signal, calming activity may be a safety signal, calming and relaxing people to facilitate social and relaxing people to facilitate social and relaxing people to facilitate social cohesion. I thought that was cohesion. I thought that was cohesion. I thought that was fascinating. Do you remember who that fascinating. Do you remember who that fascinating. Do you remember who that researcher was? researcher was? researcher was? >> Yeah, I love that hypothesis. So I think >> Yeah, I love that hypothesis. So I think >> Yeah, I love that hypothesis. So I think that was written by Sophie Scott, that was written by Sophie Scott, that was written by Sophie Scott, Caroline Mceddigan, and Nadine Levan. Caroline Mceddigan, and Nadine Levan. Caroline Mceddigan, and Nadine Levan. Yeah. Who are all these kind of laughter Yeah. Who are all these kind of laughter Yeah. Who are all these kind of laughter neuroscientists, speech neuroscientists neuroscientists, speech neuroscientists neuroscientists, speech neuroscientists who also work on laughter who also work on laughter who also work on laughter neuroscientist. What a neuroscientist. What a neuroscientist. What a >> gig. No, they've got such a good gig. >> gig. No, they've got such a good gig. >> gig. No, they've got such a good gig. Um, but I particularly loved that idea Um, but I particularly loved that idea Um, but I particularly loved that idea that laughter is this kind of mechanism that laughter is this kind of mechanism that laughter is this kind of mechanism to enhance social cohesion. And there to enhance social cohesion. And there to enhance social cohesion. And there was a study that they wrote about in was a study that they wrote about in was a study that they wrote about in that paper that I still kind of use in that paper that I still kind of use in that paper that I still kind of use in my day-to-day life now, which is that my day-to-day life now, which is that my day-to-day life now, which is that when you're having a fight with your when you're having a fight with your when you're having a fight with your partner, it turns out that people who partner, it turns out that people who partner, it turns out that people who laugh during their arguments with their laugh during their arguments with their laugh during their arguments with their partners, they kind of made couples partners, they kind of made couples partners, they kind of made couples fight in this experiment. Uh, very, very fight in this experiment. Uh, very, very fight in this experiment. Uh, very, very cruel. um the ones who laugh report cruel. um the ones who laugh report cruel. um the ones who laugh report higher levels of marital satisfaction higher levels of marital satisfaction higher levels of marital satisfaction kind of less importance of the fight and kind of less importance of the fight and kind of less importance of the fight and then crucially show fewer physiological then crucially show fewer physiological then crucially show fewer physiological signals of stress during the fight signals of stress during the fight signals of stress during the fight things like cortisol hormones like things like cortisol hormones like things like cortisol hormones like cortisol. So basically what I got from cortisol. So basically what I got from cortisol. So basically what I got from that was that couples who laugh together that was that couples who laugh together that was that couples who laugh together regularly when they then have a bit of regularly when they then have a bit of regularly when they then have a bit of conflict um which for whatever reason conflict um which for whatever reason conflict um which for whatever reason you know the stress is lower they you know the stress is lower they you know the stress is lower they recover from it quicker I think all recover from it quicker I think all recover from it quicker I think all these sort of things is that is that these sort of things is that is that these sort of things is that is that your recollection your recollection your recollection >> I think that's true too but I actually >> I think that's true too but I actually >> I think that's true too but I actually think it was people who managed to joke think it was people who managed to joke think it was people who managed to joke a little bit during the argument because a little bit during the argument because a little bit during the argument because that it has this I think it has this that it has this I think it has this that it has this I think it has this immediate effect on your physiology immediate effect on your physiology immediate effect on your physiology that's why you see those physiological that's why you see those physiological that's why you see those physiological signs. So it would be yeah people who signs. So it would be yeah people who signs. So it would be yeah people who can kind of find a way to take a step can kind of find a way to take a step can kind of find a way to take a step back but I think what you said is also back but I think what you said is also back but I think what you said is also true in this experiment that people who true in this experiment that people who true in this experiment that people who kind of laugh together do have a kind of kind of laugh together do have a kind of kind of laugh together do have a kind of better response to argument. better response to argument. better response to argument. >> So one of the takehomes from this >> So one of the takehomes from this >> So one of the takehomes from this conversation whether it be for mental conversation whether it be for mental conversation whether it be for mental health or mental well-being or just health or mental well-being or just health or mental well-being or just generally improving your satisfaction generally improving your satisfaction generally improving your satisfaction and your sense of well-being in the and your sense of well-being in the and your sense of well-being in the world is laugh more. Right? Is that world is laugh more. Right? Is that world is laugh more. Right? Is that reasonable? reasonable? reasonable? >> I think it's reasonable. And do we think >> I think it's reasonable. And do we think >> I think it's reasonable. And do we think from your uh laughter neuroscientist from your uh laughter neuroscientist from your uh laughter neuroscientist friends, man, I'm I'm going to have to friends, man, I'm I'm going to have to friends, man, I'm I'm going to have to get a laughter neuroscientist on the get a laughter neuroscientist on the get a laughter neuroscientist on the show. That's that sounds wonderful as a show. That's that sounds wonderful as a show. That's that sounds wonderful as a job. Um job. Um job. Um do you know from your interactions with do you know from your interactions with do you know from your interactions with them what laughing by yourself does? them what laughing by yourself does? them what laughing by yourself does? So I am interested in this because often So I am interested in this because often So I am interested in this because often they use you know in this field in they use you know in this field in they use you know in this field in general they use social laughter as the general they use social laughter as the general they use social laughter as the kind of example but then they use single kind of example but then they use single kind of example but then they use single laughter as the you know as the stimulus laughter as the you know as the stimulus laughter as the you know as the stimulus like in an experiment you put people in like in an experiment you put people in like in an experiment you put people in the scanner and they might be listening the scanner and they might be listening the scanner and they might be listening to for example real or fake laughter you to for example real or fake laughter you to for example real or fake laughter you can see brain differences there or they can see brain differences there or they can see brain differences there or they might even be laughing themselves might even be laughing themselves might even be laughing themselves although that's actually quite difficult although that's actually quite difficult although that's actually quite difficult because the brain can't move in the because the brain can't move in the because the brain can't move in the scanner but you can sort of measure what scanner but you can sort of measure what scanner but you can sort of measure what ends up happening um with vocalizations ends up happening um with vocalizations ends up happening um with vocalizations when someone is laughing. So I'm always when someone is laughing. So I'm always when someone is laughing. So I'm always quite interested that the way quite interested that the way quite interested that the way experiments have to be done as a experiments have to be done as a experiments have to be done as a scientist are sometimes solo but then scientist are sometimes solo but then scientist are sometimes solo but then the implications that that has kind of the implications that that has kind of the implications that that has kind of for our communities for our societies for our communities for our societies for our communities for our societies are not solo at all. They're conjoined. are not solo at all. They're conjoined. are not solo at all. They're conjoined. They're all together. They're all together. They're all together. >> Yeah. I mean it' be it'd be interesting >> Yeah. I mean it' be it'd be interesting >> Yeah. I mean it' be it'd be interesting to know the difference. I mean, I know to know the difference. I mean, I know to know the difference. I mean, I know on a personal level, if I'm ever feeling on a personal level, if I'm ever feeling on a personal level, if I'm ever feeling a bit overworked or, you know, I just a bit overworked or, you know, I just a bit overworked or, you know, I just put on YouTube and watch a comedian for put on YouTube and watch a comedian for put on YouTube and watch a comedian for 10 minutes and you just laugh and you 10 minutes and you just laugh and you 10 minutes and you just laugh and you get taken to another world. You feel get taken to another world. You feel get taken to another world. You feel completely different. You know, you feel completely different. You know, you feel completely different. You know, you feel like you've gone to a different place. like you've gone to a different place. like you've gone to a different place. My perception, I haven't measured this, My perception, I haven't measured this, My perception, I haven't measured this, but my perception is that my stress but my perception is that my stress but my perception is that my stress levels are lower. I feel better about levels are lower. I feel better about levels are lower. I feel better about the world. the world. the world. >> Oh, that's definitely true. I think, but >> Oh, that's definitely true. I think, but >> Oh, that's definitely true. I think, but what's interesting is that that's hard. what's interesting is that that's hard. what's interesting is that that's hard. It's harder to laugh on your own. People It's harder to laugh on your own. People It's harder to laugh on your own. People laugh much more easily at much less laugh much more easily at much less laugh much more easily at much less funny jokes when they're with other funny jokes when they're with other funny jokes when they're with other people. So, social laughter is more people. So, social laughter is more people. So, social laughter is more accessible. I don't know if it's accessible. I don't know if it's accessible. I don't know if it's different, but it's easier. different, but it's easier. different, but it's easier. >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then I >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then I >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then I think you are really going to enjoy this think you are really going to enjoy this think you are really going to enjoy this one. one. one. >> When we have an emotion, it changes our >> When we have an emotion, it changes our >> When we have an emotion, it changes our posture. When we have an emotion, it posture. When we have an emotion, it posture. When we have an emotion, it stores somewhere in the body. And I've stores somewhere in the body. And I've stores somewhere in the body. And I've just seen countless times when I touch just seen countless times when I touch just seen countless times when I touch people in certain parts of their body, people in certain parts of their body, people in certain parts of their body, certain emotions release. Certain certain emotions release. Certain certain emotions release. Certain patterns are stored