Dr. Mike Israetel on His Dissertation Controversy — Here Is What Actually Happened | Mind Pump 2967

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They sell athleisure wear you can wear to more formal events. Then of course they sell workout apparel that you can wear while you work out. That gives you great movement, whisks away sweat, super comfortable. We also have the biggest discount on the internet for Viory you'll find anywhere. You can get 20% off by going through our link. So go to VioryClothing.com slash Mind Pump. Also for the first time ever, Mind Pump trainers can individualize a workout program for you. That's right. You can get a MAPS program that was designed specifically for you, your goals, your fitness history, your potential injuries, areas of pain, exercise equipment you have access to, the whole thing. It's an individualized MAPS program. Go to MyMAPSprogram.com, fill out the questionnaire. Within a week you get on the phone with a trainer who delivers to you your own individualized workout program. All right, real quick. If you love us like we love you, why not show up by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs, or training gear over at MyPumpStore.com. I'm talking right now, hit pause, head on over to MyPumpStore.com. That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show. Mike, welcome back, dude. Thank you for having me in real life. In real life this time. First time we had you on Zoom, which was, how long ago was that we had you on? My timeline's all fucked. Yeah, it was like a couple years, a couple years. Yeah, you were two, almost two, you think? Yeah. Yeah, it's been a little while. What have you been up to? What have you been up to the last year or two with what you do on social media and in your business? What's going on? Put the business. Money's toxic. I'm in my post-money phase. Now, is that because you believe that or because you just stopped making money? Yeah. So now you're like, it sucks. It's a cope. It's a good question. What did I do? Business is good. All that stuff is good. I'm back training jujitsu again, which is awesome because I wasn't training it for about a year after I got surgery and needed a heal and I had a lot of other stuff going on. And so it's been amazing to be back in jujitsu. And I wrote a book and it is about vanity. And that's a big thing now. What's that? Because you look great. I thought I had drawn you in my mind only, but here you sit in real life. Fucking Picasso. He said vanity and he looked right at you. Oh, God. I looked down too, didn't I? Let's stop. So let's talk about going back to jujitsu. You were about to... So this will get your timeline right. You were about to go to surgery right when we talked. What surgery was this? Plastic surgery. Penile reductions. No, it was your boy was out here. Stop, dude. Stop, bro. Didn't you do liposuction? Isn't that what it was? I did liposuction also on the penis because... And then you wrote a book on vanity? No, you didn't. I want to know how you connect these. You did actual liposuction. Oh, yeah. Okay. How do you do liposuction and then write a book on vanity? Through hypocrisy. Oh, man. Next question. So the book is a terrible... I wrote the book while recovering from surgery. Oh, my God. So the book is a terrible... I wrote the book while recovering from surgery. Yeah. Now, is the book warning against vanity or are you like, vanity is cool, guys? Inspiration. It's saying that people who think vanity is all bad have probably not thought it through. And that vanity is something... So people who say vanity is like a pure sin are also the kind of people who look you straight in the face and say money is the root of all evil. To which my answer is, okay, well, I can really just sin eat for you and take all of your money so you can be pure good. And they're like, well, actually, it's tied up in various investments. Okay, cool. You're actually a hypocrite. That's fucked up. So I think people generally, very many people like to look good. They like to look their best. Right. And I think that there are ways in which the pursuit of vanity can get really toxic and really not great for that person, their psychology, people around them. But there's also ways to pursue vanity like getting more jacked in the gym and, I don't know, brushing your hair or something like that. Feeling your swag in the mirror a little bit that I think is just wonderful and positive and amazing. And I think that over the next 15 years or so, technology is going to get really crazy and allow people to essentially look basically like their ideal versions of themselves. And already we can do a lot of stuff about how we look through training, through diet, through cosmetic surgery, through certain drugs. And that there are people out there that have the time, the income, the willpower to look like better versions of themselves. But some of them are holding back a little bit from leaning into that because they think there's something deeply wrong with caring about your appearance. And I think very many people care about their appearance. And most of the people will tell you it's wrong to care about your appearance are, I don't want to say hypocritical, but like hypocritical because a ton of people really give a shit about how they look. And I think it's okay to meet people where they are and be like, you care, what are the trade-offs? Here are the pathways to make it so that you look better and then you can feel better. And also the pursuit of vanity in the physical sense of getting leaner and more jacked is actually really healthy for you physically and extends your life and improves your quality of life. There's no dichotomy there. The reason that I got onto this was a long time ago, Mr. Nick Shaw, who's the CEO of RB Strength, him and I were trainers in New York City for really rich people. And a lot of them would come to us and we're like, what are your goals? Because we were trained in exercise science, do an intake to figure out what needs analysis, et cetera. And they're like, oh, I want to get stronger. I want to get healthier. My insurance, blah, blah, blah. My wife said, blah, blah, blah. And inevitably, within several weeks, they're like, hey, we get biceps going or the abs or whatever, the glutes. And you're like, well, that doesn't have anything really to do with strength and health. They're like, okay, cool. Now that we're friends, though, just make me look great. That's the only thing I ever wanted. And if you poll creatively people in gyms, then you realize my contention is that in most gyms across the modern world, in excess of 80%, possibly higher, of people are there just so that they can look better. And they say all sorts of things. It's like a girl, a lot of female fitness influencers, no offense, y'all are great, are like, oh my god, I'm a powerlifter. IPF world. And then like half of her routine is just glutes, glutes, glutes, glutes, glutes with the selfies. And you're like, all right. You know, it's like a marginal trade-off on glutes for powerlifting. At some point, she's like, I just couldn't care less. I want to look like this. And I think like us being honest about how much people care about appearance and allow them to lean into it in a healthy way, even if they want to do surgery and crazy stuff like I did to myself is like a really swell idea as long as we're open about the consequences, trade-offs, and meeting people where they're at. So you're, so I definitely agree. I'm going to push back, though. I definitely agree that most people's goals, I trained people for years, most people want to look different. That's what gets them in the gym. Oh, yeah. We actually just talked about this this morning and we made the same point you did, which is many times they'll lie to themselves and say it's something else, but deep down, it's I just want to look better. That's very true. Now, I know you're a data guy too. You like to cite data and you're very well-versed in looking at data and looking at studies. What does the data say on how much your appearance, separate from everything else, right? Just how you look. What does the data say on how much that improves the quality of your life? It's a great question. We have some good data on this, particularly in the format of people will lose weight. So we get kind of psychiatric, psychological questionnaires in their hands and then they lose weight and we get one in their hands after. There's also a separate large data set of people who go through plastic surgery and do the same thing. So the best quick summary of that data that we know is for the average person who like will lose weight that they wanted to lose, right? These aren't like cancer patients. Like, how do you feel now? Like, I look great. Oh, wow. That's terrible. Haven't seen my abs in years. There you go. Too hard, Mike. You were staring. Keep going, keep going. It's a true thing. All right, Mike. So most people who lose weight will have a small to moderate meaningful improvement in their psychological mental state as far as liking the vibe of their body and how they go through the world. And that means a few things are true. A small fraction of people will have an enormous uplift psychologically from looking better. Most people will have a small uplift. Some people will have no uplift at all and a small fraction of people will have a downturn. Like, and there's mechanisms to describe which people float into which paths. But the average is like, it's probably going to make you feel a little bit better. Which is like, from my vibe on how I've interacted with the world and seen tons of clients and other friends and humans, pretty spot on. Like, for some people, it's just like, you guys know, you guys know any girls who've been like, it's time to get politically correct. You've just been the fat girl your whole life. And all of a sudden, you're in your mid-30s and you have an awesome tech job and you have tons of free time and a crap load of income and you're like science-pilled or whatever. And you're like, let me like figure out how to not look like this anymore. And you get into training, you get into dieting, you take some RETA or whatever. And all of a sudden, like a year and a half later, you're like, straight up, you're just a hot girl. For people like that, it can be revolutionary. They're a different person because, and this is some real deep shit, the way people interact with you in the world, especially if you're female, but definitely if you're male, if you're like very fat and unattractive conventionally versus if you're conventionally attractive, can be night and day. And they're living their lives as a different character. You guys ever pick the wrong character in a video game and all your friends are like, oh, where are you? Are we on level six? Like, fuck this, man. This controller doesn't work. This game sucks. This character sucks. But you get the right character and you're like, oh, dope. I can punch people and stuff happens. That's what it can feel like at the extremes of living in a very new, very upgraded, very different body. So for those people, a lot of times, it's massive uplift. For some people, they have an idea about it's going to be a massive uplift, but they're actually very introverted and they're actually very uncomfortable with, I would say, like psychosexual interactions. Like you're a girl and you walk by some part of the gym and the guy's like, hey, looking good, baby, which is probably me because that's how I talk to girls. Wow. And, wow. Noted. And, uh. It's like hits where I'm single still. And clearly, your boy gets laid, never. But like, if you're not used to that kind of lewd attention for men and you don't like it, but you didn't really know it was a thing because you were not attractive enough to attract a lot of it. It scales exponentially. So now you're that little wasted, big glute girl. Everybody at people at the coffee shop, people on the way construction site, forget about it as like you, you, you, you elevators get weird. And if you don't like that kind of interaction, your life just got a lot worse and it will not stop until you wear hoodies everywhere and fucking hide. And so some of those people see a huge, huge downturn. It's a mixed bag, which is. And I say that because if there's a big difference between saying the average outcome is like pretty decent uplift, nothing to write home about versus saying like, okay, but there's no extremes really, or it's, there's a lot of extremes. There are a lot of extremes in how people respond. Yeah. So, so the, the, the challenge with that is separating, uh, the physiological effects of exercise and healthy eating, the psychological effects of pursuing something hard, accomplishing something, changing relationship with those things and the relationships you have with others from just looking better. And so the data that I like to point to around that, uh, is, um, we can look at the, the people who are most satisfied with their body image, uh, who also have the most satisfying sex lives. Okay. So I'll point to that cause you're kind of pointing to attractiveness and stuff like, um, a lot of people don't realize this, but our people in their fifties and sixties who've been married for years and years and years, way out of their prime in terms of how they look. And yet they report back the greatest satisfaction, uh, with their bodies and what their sex lives. So I think what's difficult about what you're citing about how it improves your quality of life is it's very true that if somebody is really overweight and they lose weight and they get in shape that they'll probably be less pressed, less anxious, more outgoing, more motivated, uh, they'll have better productivity, less sick days, all that stuff. But it's in my strong opinion, it's more result of the, the, the things that they did to get there, not the fact that they look that way. And so in my opinion, if I could snap my fingers and make everybody look what would be considered conventionally beautiful, I don't think we would see this huge dramatic increase in people's quality of life. Because I would have separated it from all those things some of the evidence. I like to point to Mike You know this you're in the space Some of the most unhappy dysfunctional people I know are ripped shredded attractive looking Instagram people or fitness people And there's tons of dysfunction there and yet you would think that have this great quality of life because they look so good So yeah, but I do agree that that's people's goals is to look a particular way. There's a really great point I think the cleanest way to see that as plastic surgery before-and-afters because plastic surgery is entirely bereft of all that other stuff You said that's right. It's not a really a journey or so much No, you don't really put work into it technically put work into your day job save up money and plastic surgery is real expensive But people don't think of it that way It's not a quality of life change in some sort of way where you're like doing something every day. What makes you happy? It's not as pure as this It's not purely like before-and-after sort of sure because like you wake up and you're scarred to shit and everything's bloated Yeah, so taking your insights like the day after they're like I hate this is the worst decision of my life three months later They're like this is the best decision of my life But those people tend to have that small to moderate uplift on average with all the variation I talked about So I think actually looking better is a small to moderate increase for most people Because they look better But everything you said about exercise and the lifestyle on top of that and earning it and stuff is absolutely layered on top of that So you can have a person who just got surgery. Let's say to get to the same place They typically have a small to moderate uplift if you did Not surgery, but you did training and diet and drugs and suffering and community of being in a gym Then you're probably gonna get a bigger uplift because it's now a big part of your identity You've earned it 100% but they're summative. I don't think they super compete with one another. It's like why not have both? Yeah Yeah You know the thing what I would I would I would love to look at the data on plastic surgery because what you have in that Data are people who have had reconstruction surgery You have women who had double mastectomies you have men with or women with let's something something That's the huge insecurity because it's just you know, oh, yeah, and they come out of that versus You know somebody gets multiple procedures and I'd love to look at the data on the improvement in quality of life For somebody goes back for two three four and I bet we would see is probably a reduction So I can tell you a preview of what you'd see. Yeah, if the graph looks like a flower Typically people get surgery and the average person experiences a mild increase in body satisfaction if you get more surgeries a Number of combination of things start to happen and you get really different people in that same pipeline I'll give you two extremes one person who gets surgery knows exactly the vision of the body. They want to begin with It's just gonna take multiple surgeries to get there For example, some people will be really fat for a long time. So they'll need liposuction That's one surgery. They'll need skin removal. That's another surgery they'll need facial fat reconstruction because that's another surgery because you got like the turkey chin and shit like that and then they might even Need an abdominal retightening sheath surgery. Let's say four or five surgeries But they knew what they were getting into and they have that ideal. Look at the end. They're gonna be ecstatic a Large fraction of the time they're dope. There's another kind of person This is where it gets dark and I think to your point where they don't like what they see straight up to begin with there's maybe not a version of their body that they'll ever gonna like and every surgery they get is a combination of high expectations that finally I love it and Concomitant massive reduction of expectations when they realize like oh, I still hate myself The vast majority of those people I think have some shit that has nothing to do with appearance making them upset And they have misattributed appearance is the thing that makes them upset. There's tons of those people. Yeah, so no, that makes sense How are you defining vanity by the way? Because do you mean just wanting to look better or like what do you mean by vanity when you say that because I think that'll Help too. Yeah You guys ever seen that movie oh My god, what was it that devil's advocate? Yeah with Al Pacino what a great movie He's like vanity my favorite sin. Yeah or whatever anything. He says is great. That's what I mean, okay And then later yeah, whatever the devil says, that's right That's a citation to the devil, but how much he knows the devil's a dope devil. Also later Keanu Reeves I think has almost sex with his sister I remember that Don't see it again Godless Vanity to me is like a Concern about your appearance a care about your appearance and that if you feel like you're looking good you feel better Yeah, and if you feel like you're looking bad, you don't feel as good as you are normally would yeah I don't think that's I don't think that's the bad. I think that's fine like wanting to look Presentable and professional and good to be on my podcast or for my wife or my wife for me I think that's totally fine. I think my wife's boyfriend. Yeah. Well, no But you know like for example use the quote the The root of all evil is money or money as well. That's actually it's a misquote. It's the love of money That's the root of all that's all wrong. That's wrong, too Yeah, well, I so I think maybe the love of vanity would be the issue But vanity itself might not be like chasing vanity for it for its own sake could be pretty bad I think we should just be very specific about what we think is bad. Yeah Vanity is bad when it makes you have a bad time in your head Like otherwise, it's good because it's just clearly nobody else, right? imagine imagine someone's like You are mowing the lawn. It's a push mower. Yeah, and You hate fucking mowing the lawn. Yeah, it's a bad time and you could be like, dude So what'd you do today man? She had to mow the lawn like oh that sucks. I know What if you are like Forrest Gump and you love mowing the lawn is mowing the lawn bad or good now? Well mowing the lawn was just always a thing but you have good happy feelings when you're mowing the lawn You're like Lieutenant Dan. I'm on lawn and Everything's great. And so later you're like dude, how was your day as I mowed a lot? I loved it and you're like, oh cool That's an oddly accurate Forrest Gump impression. Also, that's weird. It means you had no friends and watch too many movies So for vanity, I'm aware of at least a few reasons how vanity can go south One is you play the comparison game? Which is you start looking at people's instas and your own ABS and their ABS and your own ABS and that almost always You're right. It's a moving goalpost but also it's like it's a goalpost that gets like infinitely far away and like like Nanometers in size you're not gonna hit that shit because you're not gonna look better than Chris Bumstead on his best day The day before the Olympia right like you can find his pictures of his physique and you're like man ain't shit That's a really really bad idea. Another one is Perfectionism for yourself if you look like so like right now I fuck with this look. I like my look right now It's imperfect got a big old gut and shit like that. But like whatever it's not a big deal So generally, I'm like, yeah, this is great and like I want to make it better But like I'm patient about that like it'll take time whatever But if I look at myself in the mirror and I'm like still have that gut like I fucking hate this bro. This is awful I'm gonna put on bags if I go outside. I'm not gonna go outside You're gonna have a really really bad time and so if you avoid that toxicity of for example comparison with others or Perfectionism for yourself and you just let the good parts of vanity, which is like I look great And I love that and this is awesome That's a great way to go and it's gonna be a thing where you train you eat Well, you look great. You feel great. You train you eat. You look great. You feel great. It's just an inner of loop Yeah, according to you That's the minority though because I find it's I feel like I feel like that's why I'm biased because maybe there's we the people we Train and we see that that tends to be the majority of people which one that are the battle Yeah, the obsessed compare they move the goalposts that you know, it turns into I Get they get the ABS. They're still not happy and they want to keep going. I find that That's more common than not. Where do you fall Mike in that and where have you fallen? Would you say you're on the bad side the good side it can go back and forth. I know you you've been on both Yeah, yeah Yeah What does that look like for you in both because I'd love because I think that'll help people to hear for someone like you What it felt like to be on the one side versus the other so Well, he just described one side where he says like I'm I'm happy with my body sure I could lose a few pounds, but I'm patient. Yeah losing a few pounds doesn't work, by the way So for my body, it's like I have a very particular problem with my body Which is I have like a genetic laxity in my abdominal wall And so it doesn't matter what body fat percent is I have like a trucker gut no matter what and there's pictures of me on the internet videos of me sucking it in pushing it Out clean six-pack. I can do a vacuum and then it's just like trucker gut And so that fat loss doesn't work. Nothing works like it has to be reconstructive surgery and I'm not so ready for that Yeah, like that. That's a huge procedure. I'm good. And so I just have to kind of make peace with the shit I don't love it, but it's there so I can deal with it and there's lots of other cool shit I have going on my body. I get pissed about my gut I just look at my leg veins and I'm like that all as well. So so there's that The comparison game I have lots to say about how that has gone south for me and back north for me Respectively through various cycles Because it's especially like in comment sections and react videos. The comparison game is really toxic Oh, yeah, because most of the people in a comment section that will compare you to other physiques They're not like putting the best foot forward. They're not being gentle. They're not being kind They're not being they're not acting in good faith, and they're also typically like anonymous Incel trolls and who look like I don't want to know because it's probably really bad And they'll be like you still look like shit compared to best bodybuilder of all time or whatever And if you really let that shit sink in means it's really toxic and you don't even have to have any comments or anything You know, I follow lots of bodybuilders on Instagram because I have to masturbate and I need But other than that to respect their journey or something. I don't know. What are people saying this case? But I'm serious like I'm serious note I followed a lot of people who have come up from like local to national to pro because the journey's Awesome, and I love it. Like I'm like I like watch people's lifestyles like some guy. I'll never meet He's like did you know arms today and then out with my girlfriend later and eating a cheeseburger. I'm like, oh man, that's great I love swiping that's like super super wholesome and you can either take that in as like man This guy's having a great time and I'm inspired to go to my own version of this or you can be like Why does his chest look like super squared off and mine looks all weird? and so if you have Instagram and you look through pictures all the time and you don't in Many cases and to your point about a lot of people have this I think social media makes this shit way worse if you don't Carefully curate both your feed and how you react. I was gonna ask you because it was you didn't this wasn't that this was a while Ago, but you made a comment about Mike Metser Yes about his training and you made a comment like I look better. I don't remember what it was You said I didn't say I look better than Mike Metser. It was literally hallucinated. It was something like that. I'm not that dumb Okay, Mike Metser is one of the best-looking people of all time. Yeah, and I look like a Jewish troll with muscles But I'll lean into this shit Stronger than Mike More physical muscle size, okay So I'm bigger and stronger than Mike Metser and it's just true and that's to prove a point Almost no one reveres Lee Haney Who dominated Mike Metser's entire era? Yeah Why be it wasn't be it was because Lee Haney trained actually really scientifically Really controlled higher volumes higher reps. No grunting. No crazy shit really logical progression He didn't have that fucking energy Mike Metser had that shit. He told you got a train really hard, but for a short time Yeah, so people revere Mike Metser because of that. The only reason I said what I said was Self-deprecating and nobody a few people got that joke Why if I'm bigger and stronger than Mike Metser and I'm not that big and strong like I'm way below average like the IFBB pros Are like freaks. Yeah, why aren't you following them because bigger and stronger is really all you can get You can't model someone's aesthetics. That's insane. You go have Mike Metser's forearms. Hit it. You'll never do it. It's impossible It's just that's not how the body works And so the reason I said that was there's a reason people idolize Mike Metser and it's a vibes So if you want to learn something logical for Mike Metser, you can you'll have to do a lot of filtering It's a lot of the shit is outdated, but there's lots of grains of wisdom there. It's vibes It's not because people will be like, oh I want to be like Mike Metser because he was huge or because he was strong like that's a nonsense statement because why not just Pick a random IFBB pro who's bigger and stronger than Mike Metser. How do I know that cuz I'm bigger and stronger Mike Metser It's not a huge accomplishment. This dude was around him like the fucking early 80s Yeah, ta-da Remember when that happened, I don't remember exactly what you said was Stronger than his Dorian gets on and Dorian who's you know trains in that style Yeah, he says, oh you look like crap whatever and then you got people were hammering you over that my question Well, I've never seen a single person hammering no, you know, these are online trolls, that's what I mean That's what I mean by that. How did you handle that because you're just social me. No problem. Okay. Yeah Okay, well like when you're hammering me, but you have an anonymous account. Yeah. Yeah, I don't give a shit Well logically what you're saying makes sense But you know, we've been in the space for a while and I know when I see negative comments I try not to let it bother me. Sometimes it does. Yeah, sometimes it does bother me a little bit It's it's it can be a huge bother and it's taken me a long time to contextualize comments Because I so I think every human is a legit human being and we're all fucked and we're all troubled and we all say weird Nasty shit sometimes me first and foremost And so when someone on an anonymous burner account says mean things to me My first temptation to be is like this is like a real human giving me feedback I'm not gonna just discount it was all I have a real blue check like fuck me. Who the hell am I? This is as much of a valid opinion as I have but then I realized like actually there's a reason they have a burner account Is because they're not willing to stand up in public and own themselves It's probably because they look like shit or they can't like physically speak to another human being and be recognized for what they say It's like my nastiest idea in the morning. Like I wake up pissed and groggy I'm like fuck everyone if I was a troll, I would just post that online underneath the first account I saw and so because the amount of intellectual input into that is teeny tiny and they don't really mean it I'm like, okay, this is just throwaway content the number of people Who are real humans in the world who've ever criticized me for my opinions is teeny-tiny Usually the critiques make a lot more sense and they're more cogent or they're just having a lot of feelings No big deal what Dorian said right before you saw that clip was and I think he was joking or something that effect is But if he wasn't joking Fucking joking right like and also Dorian was fed incorrect information Somebody told him I said I looked better than Mike Menzer But I never said that because I don't believe it at all and like Does Dorian have that opinion of me first of all during can have any opinion of me that he likes doesn't bother me the fucking Least second of all he can have a negative opinion of me in that context I know it's based on false premises really doesn't bother me But even if he did have that opinion like Dorian is entitled to his opinion. I'm entitled to mine. No problem Yeah, yeah, he's a real human. So it hits different again I'm just gonna push back because what you're saying is total sense makes a lot of logical sense You're a very smart guy, but I also know that's true. Well, you are but I also know you're in a bodybuilding You talked about your physique you've critiqued yourself Yeah And so getting people commenting on your because that's what happened was a lot of online comments on physiques comparing you to Mike Menzer That didn't bother you at all a little no because they were picking pictures of me at my absolute worst on purpose so one of the most famous pictures of me commenting about Mike Menzer is The one where I have like my gut hanging out surgery scars and shit. I haven't trained in six weeks I just got cut and they were just circulating that and like that versus men sir, like in his god-like time Like I have any pictures on my Instagram of me like at 5 6 to 25 with veins everywhere jack to shit They didn't use those for some reason. This is not a good faith attempt. They I got their boy. They felt bad They had to get me bags They had a lot of hurt feelings and so dope like I don't have a problem with that either like fucking pour it on Because later when I present a version of my physique like I recently did that was like fucking awesome looking Compared to that for sure then everyone kind of shuts the fuck up for a second and you're like, oh, yeah I guess he's pretty jacked and so because I know that IRL I'm jacked and at my best I love how I look the me like when I put those pictures up Me looking like shit. They didn't leak. I put them up willingly I own every part of how my body looks across the entire Development of it all of the seasons all of the not training I'm not trying to pull myself up on a pedestal. But here I go a lot of people on socials don't do that They'll just give you the best version of the world And so what I have to like quote-unquote suffer through it's not suffering at all But it's harsh is people are like, oh my god This guy looks like shit and my favorite influencer looks like this But like but how do you know how your favorite influencer looks when he's like off of trend and crying himself to sleep every night It hasn't trained in four weeks like we're not gonna post that on the internet Some people do and they're fucking ballers for doing it, but I'm also not saying people should post that stuff Yeah a lot when I post my regular whatever bullshit awful angle physique on the internet I'm not saying like oh, I'm a good person or I'm like super truthful or whatever This is kind of crazy shit. I do all the time and I'm totally good with taking all the criticism. No problem All right, cool since we're in the controversy train I know recently there was a relatively there's a lot of controversy around something that had to do with how you got your Your accolades through education. Can we talk about that a little bit? Sure I didn't dive deep in that but I saw like a whole bunch of stuff around I'm like, what is everybody going after your thesis or was around the school? And what was it around? So it's around the dissertation. Okay, so There was a thing that I did by accident Where I had when I was making my final so there's a dissertation you defend to your committee Okay, and they review it and external people review it and they say no or yes And then there is the final version that you submit to the graduate school that they publish on your behalf okay, when I was cleaning up the dissertation that I had submitted I Mistransposed a series of tables. Hmm, and that means though the results look completely nonsensically wacky Got it And so I have all of the old data and stuff which has since been published to the Internet to relieve people of their frustrations and also the PhD had like like So Microsoft Word detects typos, but there was one like instead of science I wrote the word sense But when I scanned it, he just doesn't have a red line and your brain interpolates like that's what I meant You know what? I mean like the and there sometimes just miss it in editing There's like a crapload of shit like that And so one gentleman who makes probably a pretty good living off critiquing me at length That's by far 20 X's most popular videos Fucking god bless him like I Made fun of fucking celebrity trainers for years. It's all good. He made this whole video and He did it in was that how it started was it from him? It's exactly how started and really that's really the only thing that happened. And then so My initial response was like fuck him. He's a troll. Both of those are true I believe both of those and I'm just gonna like minimally attend to this And one of my friends was like dude the way this looks I think it's your rough draft And I was like, yeah, it sounds good to me and I was like, it's my rough draft And then later like hours later. I was like checked again. I was like, oh fuck. That's not true and so my lack of giving a shit which is precisely what made me not super fine-tuned edit my dissertation to begin with and Also was why I responded to it Lackadaisically is what ended up causing this controversy and people were like, oh, this is a huge conspiracy theory Came up and these are just like insane people who have nothing better to do What are they there's the term for them the unemployed or whatever on the internet? And so that's what they call themselves Like and some of these are like really awesome people that just like give a shit about the truth and some are just super super bad-blood nefarious actors and So that's how it happened and then at the end I was like, oh actually this is what happened and by then they were like Oh, you're a fucking liar. You're fake. It's a fraud and bullshit. What would the point be? They're making them There's no actual cogent point that they're making yeah, I'd say what's so Let's say it was true Your PhDs fail. Like if I had to fake my statistics, I would fake them to look cogent not nonsensical, right? and so It wasn't beneficial. I mean it's just like it's one of those like dot dot dot profit scenarios We're like we're gonna do this and then I mean, that's why I didn't even go that I saw it briefly saw it didn't go Yeah, I didn't understand it. Yeah, it's also a document from like 13 years ago So the person that did this has a huge Instagram is like a lot of butthurt. Yeah No, nothing. I've never met the guy. No doubt. He was gonna make this is great content for him He's gonna clip this out He's gonna pretend like he's the victim that he was looking for truth and he's gonna be like, oh look how evil Mike is The whole thing. Yeah, enjoy the content. I have a great I'm gonna make money my man personally have a big problem with people who built who build their their business based off of Taking other people down. Yeah, I Get that some people are gonna argue. There's a value in that. We need them to call people out or whatever I don't know. I've met a few of these people and They seem to be very unhappy They just want to hurt others and they want to build a business while doing so And I just have a big problem with that kind of stuff. So I get You get what's coming when you do that? They do tend to get it back It's you you put easy you put you put yourself out there as that person. Yeah, you tend to be what I think so like Taking down quote-unquote or calling to task People that are saying incorrect things that are saying things to the mass audience of fitness people For example that just leads them astray like oh You fucking just drink avocado oil and you'll be lean if you buy my 199 99 program Sure that kind of toxic shit needs to be called out for the pursuit of truth, right? The problem is when you start being like hey I heard Mike's dissertation was like the final published copy was like had some fucking errors in it That's a very different claim than Mike is a fraud and he's a bullshit artist And he's lying to us and all of his evidence-based fitness takes are also wrong Which a bunch of people started piling up on yeah, and it's like I get it hate away. Fuck me. I'm annoying I don't look nearly as good as you would think I would have talking all the shit I'm not from I didn't go to Stanford some elite institution. I've got it all coming right, but there's a very big distance between me I'm like, dr Oz who's actual liar bullshit artist and when you talk enough shit about people like myself like Lane Norton gets a lot of shit Yeah If you talk a lot of shit about evidence-based people that are flawed human beings trying to do good and mostly disseminate great information You start to like have these things converge and that's not good for anyone It's like I don't want to get super political but when you when you say shit is fake news, right? There is a lot of malfeasance in the news media and they're just like straight-up lying half the time Yeah But when you call everything fake news and you don't dissect between this is really good stuff And this is actually fake bullshit Do you lose a lot entirely and then you can just build whatever narrative you want totally and so all of a sudden like there's A bunch of people on that bunch There's a few people on the internet with big accounts that are like evidence-based training is bullshit Like no you fucking asshole you just want to sell your fake fucking supplements and make money and you want to paint everyone as evil because you're Actually evil and now if everyone's evil no big deal. It's I say it every you were on the island You were on the fucking island I saw you on Epstein's Island and then I was on the shit But like me you won't hear that from me and then you accuse everyone of doing bad stuff It brings everyone down to your level. There's a crapload of that going on. That's probably not well I think I think it's healthy for us to Debate information and the science and I think that's a good thing. I think to come after someone's character you better fucking know and to go after people on the Internet's character without ever have met that person or Learned enough about them that you you roll the dice and I think those people get what's coming So if you build a brand or you build yourself through going after some stressful business, imagine that's your business I just that's crazy. I mean, I and I've learned the hard way. We've been doing this for a long time now And you know, I've been wrong more about people than I've been right many times I've judged somebody before they sat in this room. Are you pointing at me? Before they sat in this room and then I get to know and actually really understand the character and hear them in long form not A one-minute clip on Instagram and hear them articulate their points and and and and then all of a sudden man I like that person I had no idea and then there's people who I liked on the internet because all they are one bit and then they get in this room and I can't fucking stand them and They're bullshit and their character. So two things I got to say about that. Number one is When there's a real big problem with like, I don't know the term for this like, um short slash reels culture There are oodles of people whose only impression of two things humans and their ideas is from 30 to 90 second clips Yeah, I have a lot of people in my DMS who fucking hate me and I sometimes will DM them back They're like you're a coward or this or that you're they use a k-word for the Jewish peoples I love I use myself, but not on this podcast, right? So Like they'll hit me up and be like, I can't believe you think this and I was like, hey Here's the whole video from which this was taken and they'll watch that segment to two minutes before two minutes after they're like, hey, man I'm really sorry. Yeah, cuz it's like some of these clips are Intentionally designed to paint a picture totally where I literally soak a bunch of the controversial should I've said? Literally before I say it. I'm like now the following is a joke And go and that's like that's troublesome because you get these little snapshots about people and to your point you meet them later You're like, oh, oh, it's not a bad person at all. The other thing is I had to go the other way, bro Yeah, where I meet people and they're fucking cool. And then later I realized they're not cool at all And I'm like, oh my god, dude, like I don't know about you guys. Do you guys have the good? Do you feel like you're a good judge of character? Cuz I'm you know, I would say we're a person we are Oh, yeah, we're pretty good. Justin's discernment. It's like this guy right here sniffs it. Oh you smell He's always been right. Can I get some of that shit? Yeah Out here. Someone could be like, I'm a great person. I'm like, okay, my friends like the other guys a serial killer I'm like, maybe he's good at that It always starts the handshake with me If you have the awkward handshake with Justin then we know I Just know that I've been you know, this is before this I train people in real life And so, you know, we build this big internet business and you know I got caught up in listening to others opinions about people yeah, man takes on social media and then I meet him and I'm like that person is nothing like that and or getting excited about someone who I think is awesome because they portray this image online and then they get in here and it's Like I can't stand this person. So a lot of times when people are talking about other people online You as like a viewer sort of give them the benefit of the doubt Subconsciously that's like they know things about that person They have some kind of insight sure and then at some point you might realize like whoa, they have no idea They know as much about this person as I do. They've seen like reddit posts something Yeah, and it's like why do I consider this person or authority on anything at all? They're just like like live streaming their nonsense to the world To the point of like the toxicity of like making that kind of content we were doing a lot of celebrity critiques we never Critiqued people's bodies. We never said this person looks like shit or this person doesn't we don't fucking do that on the channel But we were like hey scientifically speaking This is nonsense you shouldn't be doing this because we gave a fuck and give a fuck about real humans looking at celebrities and be like It's like you guys get this all the time. Like how do I look like this guy? Yeah, you're like well, he did this he did this slide bosu bullshit. You're like it's called an avar Here's a real training that'll actually get you in the best shape. So we're like rebelling against that So that's why all that negative content the same time I got real goddamn tired of doing it Scott the video guy got tired of filming it and We chose like probably a year and a half two years ago Just like positivity. We're just gonna go in that realm because and it's it's Unfortunately less viewership. Yeah, like we still get a shitload of views. It's fine Yeah, but like people like love negative takes and I'm just like I can't fucking you'll get you'll get less viewership But you'll get more consistency. Yeah, you won't be flashing the pan. You'll build lots of Value and loyalty through doing that and better for business and it is it's a better It's a better business collab with those people later Yeah, if you take the fuck out of him unfairly, they're gonna collab with you and you last you last I mean so many flashes in the pan and new media, but they disappear because they do this kind of negative You know crap take whereas 100% you know, I remember doing Kovac over it was such a negative scary time. Oh my god We had a meeting and we're literally like we are gonna only do positive stuff. I'm not a person meeting though. I assume say what? We broke all the rules zoom with the mask Broke all the rules, but we made a conscious effort. We're gonna go positive, because that's what people need now. And it served us very, very well. But at the time, everything was negative and scary and all that stuff. I want to ask you about, off air I asked you what you were doing while you were down here, and you said you were on tech podcasts. What were you doing on tech podcasts? Because you have controversial AI opinions? Controversial AI opinions. I've got all kinds of them. You're a fitness guy. What are you doing on these tech podcasts? What's going on? They're like, hey, let me see your muscles. And I'm like, why can't I get out of these handcuffs and what's that weird cream? And then I wake up. It's a lot of money, but I feel wronged and very sore. But they're tech people. They're not like monsters. And that's it. Okay, and that's been Mike. Thanks. So I think, let me try to like, I'll give you kind of a seed from which all these crazy views come up. I think that intelligence is substrate independent, which means that a dolphin can be intelligent, even though it doesn't look like us. A dog can be intelligent. Some people look like dogs. Don't I look like somebody's pit bull? Like, yo, his name is Oscar. We got him from the pound yesterday. Look at him. This is a picture of me. It's the muscly head. He's very hairy. It's the muscly head, dude. Yeah, it sure is. And then humans can have intelligence, but I think like silicon can also have intelligence. Machines can have intelligence. And intelligence, I think, can be measured in a variety of different qualities, but they all kind of converge into the same general ability. And that like, humans are currently the most intelligent animals on earth, but within somewhere between now, depending on how you measure it, and the next three years, we will no longer be. And machines will be smarter than us. Like, you could just ask yourself the question like, Claude, Claude's most recent model, Claude Fable. Like, what do you know that it doesn't know? Like, what test at school can you take that it'll fail and you'll do great at? Like, I don't know, that ship has sailed. And so there's nuanced ways in which we're still smarter than AI, but I think those are coming to an end real goddamn soon. And then so the thing about human intelligence is like with better nutrition, better education, human intelligence over the centuries goes up slowly, but it does. AI is working on a crazy exponential. And so like the kind of intelligence we're gonna see in the early 2030s is going to be probably hundreds of times smarter than the smartest human. And the implications of that are insane. And I happen to think in almost all amazing ways with some really nasty downsides. But the many people that reason about AI and accept the premises that intelligence is going damn near vertical at this point, they have like a really Terminator 2 stepping on skulls with Gatling laser gun, which is a dope vibe. They have that view of it. And so they really don't like me going on podcasts and getting all psychophantic about AI because they think it's kind of evil. And I think it's kind of like almost an unmitigated good. So you're overwhelmingly positive with this emerging, potentially emerging artificial general intelligence that's just so far and above. Now, is that because you see a utopia where no one has to work and all these things? You lazy motherfucker. I mean, that's where we were. That's the first shit you came up with. I always go straight to the sex robots because I also have problems with my man. Between you not working and me having sex with robots, we're good. Well, that's going to be my job is to have sex with robots. So paint me the overly optimistic version of this since it's the opposite of Terminator for you. So what does that look like? Yeah, we're stepping on cyber skulls. No, I'm kidding. No more. I think that in a matter of several years, we're going to take cracks at big diseases and win. So by the way, there are already drugs that can pretty much defeat obesity. The fact that I can sit here today in 2026 and tell you that in 2021 would have been like, you're an insane person. Like obesity is just going to kill us all, man, because it just keeps going like this. Obesity is now in decline and has been for several years. Isn't that crazy? It's entirely because of semaglutide and triseptide. And so drugs to kibosh diabetes, cures for cancer. There are realistic possibilities now, alternatives in labs today that are a universal cold vaccine. Think about that. You'll never get any kind of cold virus ever again if you take the shit, ever. Like, okay, how can we expand that even more? So I think by late 2020s, especially early 2030s, humans getting sick with traditional like cough and cold diseases or like grandma's liver doesn't work so well anymore because she inherited some kind of shit, that might be on its way out and potentially like drawn to a close. The other cool and completely insane thing, and I talk about this in the Aesthetic Revolution book that I just wrote, it's out for sale on bookstores near you. Is that still a thing? I don't know. Online. Don't go to a bookstore, it's weird. Online, yes, is age reversal. Okay, so they've gotten pretty good at age reversing animals and there are now partial reprogramming trials in humans that are active today in China and the US. And so it is actually a very tenable, in my view, very highly probable idea that by the mid 2030s, everyone who takes these magic special super drugs for aging reversal will start aging in reverse. And so that by the late 2030s, most people who want to will be a physiologic and anatomical 22 years old prime of life indefinitely. It's like a real thing. That is crazy. But like with whiter skin and even bigger fangs. And like an odd aversion to sunlight, the whole thing. You guys know Brian Johnson, the vampire man? He just came out with a autoimmune disease. Yeah, that sucks, man, that sucks. Some of the people on the internet are such, can I say the C word on here? Cunts. Because they're like, C? What do you mean, C? It's a genetic disorder, you asshole. He was born with that shit, you fucking moron. You go, it's all an anti-aging. No, you're a nihilist retard, shut up. Sorry. Who was that that said these things? So he's onto some real shit when he's like, if you take care of your health really well in the next 10 years, you might not really die on a human time scale. Because once we do age reversal, and point number three here is genetic engineering. Let's say you have a proclivity to gain muscle that's like whatever. It's like you're an average jack dude, no big deal. Some people have better genetics than you, some worse. It's not seemingly super difficult for advanced AI to give you a vector to change your DNA such that you now have the genetics of, I don't know, the average Nigerian person. You guys ever meet Nigerian people, and you're like, why do you have striated glutes? You don't even work out. I don't know, it's just how I was. I've seen clips on Instagram of these dudes, and they're working out with motor parts and stuff, and they're slowly like amateur bodybuilders. That guy's a pro, yeah. Like, what's going on? Yeah, what's going on? So they're Nigerian. And so that potential to upgrade yourself and to be sort of forever young, the only thing that can kill you at that point's like, I don't know, an asteroid, a bus, or some shit like that. This is a very, very different world than in the world today where we're like, accept aging, death, and disease as just like normal things that are just gonna have to happen. So I'm of that opinion that that shit's on its way out, and I think that's wonderful. Yeah, I think solving chronic illness and disease will be a huge plus. But I also, and this is just because I'm looking at- That's granted we get access to that. Yeah, and also, I'm looking back at the last 100 years, we've had dramatic improvements in our access to housing and clean water and food. And we have made great, huge leaps in eradicating certain diseases and issues. And anxiety and depression are higher in many cases. And so that's the part of me that's like, cool, we're gonna get everything we want. Is that really gonna make everybody happy? Probably not. Humans have this thing called the hedonic treadmill where the faster you run on it and try to get more pleasure, the lower it gives you pleasure, and so you end up seeing something like that. There's nuance there where something's like, I'm pretty sure not having any disease ever again will make people substantially happier. But I think to your point, a very small margin versus people are gonna be dancing in the streets like, finally, no disease. I think that shit's gonna be solved too because if you look at mental illness as a disease, which I think a lot of people do, I think it's gonna be very tractable and possible through AI drug discovery to make, we did talk about this the last time I was on, is to make drugs that make you happier. And let me just speak an analogy here. Compared to happiness, hunger is at least as deep an ancestral human emotion. Like, I don't know if jellyfish are happy or sad. They get hungry almost certainly, right? And so you would think there's no way that you could take a weekly injection that would modulate your happiness to whatever level you want it with not so big side effects. But terzapatide already does that with hunger. And we look at it, we're like, yeah, okay, it does that, hunger solved. We don't really bat an eye. But doing that with anxiety depression is, I think, feasible. And then so imagine 2033, that drug comes out. And all of a sudden, you're anxious, you're depressed. And it's for no good reason, right? Because there's two reasons you can be anxious and depressed. One is shit's fucked up in your life and you need to be fixing it. Like, you're in a wrong relationship, you're in the wrong situation, you hate your job, you got shit from your past you need to work out. You can take a drug that makes you chill anyway, but you should probably be fixing that stuff too, at least, or just fixing that stuff. But there's another way, and if you guys have any Jewish friends, you've seen this shit play out, you're just fucking broken. And everything in your life is awesome and you're fucking miserable. Like, oh, but life could get worse again. You're like, it's amazing. Oh, that's what scares me, hi. You're like, okay, cool. So you're just gonna be like that forever, got it. If you give them the terzepatide of anxiety depression, just dose-dependently, however much they take, they could just be a person who acts like they have amazing genetics for happiness. I had an ex-girlfriend once. She had the greatest genetics for happiness I'd ever seen in a human being. Her existence blew me away. She would wake up like this and she was wonderful, 24-7. And when bad things happened to her, she was like, oh, all right, I'm gonna pick up the pieces. And I was like, oh my God, can we clone you? What the fuck is going on? That's possible. Some humans are already like that. And with proper medication in the future, you can just make pretty much everyone not anxious, not depressed. Let's talk a little more about the GL piece because I think from listening to the way you're communicating it, you shared a strong opinion that I had when we first started talking about them and experimented with them, ran groups through them. And then I've slowly changed my opinion on it. My opinion early was that this is for sure gonna be a net positive. With how bad obesity is, now I knew there would be people that would abuse it. There'd be people that don't need it that are gonna take it. I knew all that stuff would happen. But I still thought with the amount of obesity that we have, it's for sure gonna be a net positive. Now, what I've seen in the last few years is a lot more negative than I thought would be positive. And what I mean by that is a lot of people that are using it to eat nothing and they're losing a tremendous amount of muscle. And they're trading, instead of obesity, now osteoporosis is coming. And so, have we really seen this play out long enough to know if it's gonna be a net positive? Do you feel still strongly it's a net positive? Because I'm teetering in the other direction. I think we're walking into a frailty epidemic is what we're gonna see on the other end. And walking not so impressively, either. Stuttering until end. So, I think my view on this is that it's a net positive, but with a shitload of bad use cases and bad results. Mostly because people don't do the very core basics you're supposed to be doing with shit. That's right. So, there are lots of influencers who are doing a great job, many of the medical doctors, talking about, okay, so you wanna think about GLPs. Here's what you need to do. You need to eat healthy meals with high protein and lower fat because otherwise it's gonna nuke your gut and you're gonna be vomiting blood. You're gonna need to do resistance training because it's gonna keep the muscle on your body. And you're gonna have a good meal schedule and get plenty of sleep. And then, you're gonna adjust your dose based on the dose you need, not on mystical, magical, fuck it, two grams of triseptide and then you're shitting blood or whatever's going on. If you make the dose adjustments, the nutrition adjustments and the weight training adjustments, an overwhelming fraction of people have a fucking unbelievable time on these drugs. Here's the problem, though. Who goes to find influencers talking about how to take these things properly? Some people. Most people are like, oh, oh, there's a shot I can take? Yeah. Cool. And you're like, but the side effects, and they've already closed the door. But they're gonna, it's a preloaded pen that has no adjustment either. That's right. Do you know why there's a preloaded pen now with no adjustment? This is fucking terrifying. Such an enormous fraction of people who take prescription drugs are functionally innumerate. They can't do mental math reliably. And so if you're like, hey, for this dose, twist the bar. They're like, I don't know that. Is that the reason for safety? That makes sense. That's exactly the reason. The pharmaceutical company's like, what's the average dose people need? Boom, put it in, boom. Wow. Because they used to have the turndial ones. It's like a solved problem, but it's in very simple technology. And I remember when the pens, a lot of them stopped being the turndial ones and start being the regular ones. And that's because you talk to real doctors off the record. And you're like, how do you feel about your patients using XYZ? They're like, dude, a lot of my patients are smart as fuck, and they're great. But some small, but look, a third is a small fraction, but also a very large fraction in some sense. But a third of your patients are like, I just don't do numbers. You gotta be like, oh my God. And then all this nasty shit happens. And it's not that people are necessarily innumerate, they're not cognitively with it enough. That's a small problem. You can just reason through that. You can take Chachapiti, you can take a picture of the shit, just tell me what to do. This is something I keep coming back to a lot. It's like giving a shit factor. We don't have a fucking pill for that, fellas, at all. And so I have many people I consider very close friends who just YOLO shit. I have one friend specifically who will go nameless. He's the fucking man. Unreal successful in business. Fucking trillionaire. But his interest in putting in diligence into his physique is zero. But he wants a good physique. So he's like, is there any pill or potion or powder I can take to just do this? And I'm like, no, we're not that far ahead. And he's on growth, test, a bunch of other fucking drugs. I've never even heard of, and he barely trains and he eats like total shit. What's the solution for him? Magic miracle AI medicines, for sure. Anything short of that, he's gonna be exactly that guy. Be like, yeah man, dude, people comment. They're like, I took your zepatite, it ruined my gut. I'm like, how much did you take? They're like, max dose. I'm like, my dog. How did you eat on it? They're like, I ate whatever. Like, my man. Pizza plus two and a half bigs of the Tide is gonna shoot you to the moon, and not in a fun way. It's crazy how many, I share this with guys because I've got a lot of people around me that are family and friends that I've seen that are taking it, how disconnected they are to their own body signals. And they have been, for forever. Because you'll take this stuff, and it will definitely let you know if you eat shit food. And this is why it's so effective, is because if you eat healthy, good, square, balanced meals, you feel good, and you can digest it. But you go out of bounds, and you eat some crap, and oh my God, you are messed up. But it's wild to see that destroy people, and then still keep doing it. And it's like, that's not even a loud enough signal for them to correct course. There's a run story I like to share in as many podcasts as possible. Because it really, like, man, it really hits. One of my industry colleagues, Dr. Spencer Rudolski, he's a industry, he's a board certified obesity specialist. I know who he is. Yeah, and he's like jacked, and lean, Mr. Captain America, whatever, fuck. He had a patient at one point, he told me about, super anonymized. And she was on multiple anti-obesity drugs, like many of these. And he's like, physiologically, she cannot feel hunger. It's not a thing. And she was like, not losing weight. And he was like, hey, what's going on, are we eating, blah, blah, blah. He's like, what did you eat today? And she's like, well, I ate this, this, that, for some reason, for some good. And then she's like, and then I had a Hershey's candy bar. And he was doing his mind melding shit, where he's like, glycemic index, is it the sugars, is it the dose, blah, blah, blah. He's asking her, and he's like, were you hungry, right? Were you hungry, were you crazy? Was it like an emotional thing? And she goes, no. And he's like, so what was it? She's like, I just felt like having a chocolate bar. Fellas, what do you do about that? I got all kinds of ideas about shit. I have nothing, I have nothing on that. How do you help that person? It just felt like having a fucking shit. It's like your people you're talking about, will gut bomb themselves? You're like, okay, I had five bags of Doritos and two slices of pizza. It fucked me up. Two days later, my Doritos look good. Let's go. And you're like, you're watching them do this, and you're like, I can't help you anymore. Well, it's tough if you approach it through a scientific lens, because it's not a scientific answer. Human behavior. Yeah, human behavior. This is more psychological, and this brings us full circle back to the whole vanity thing, too, because I feel like most people don't have that good of a relationship that you explain, that you have, where you can say like, oh, I'll do this little thing, and that's it, and I want to look better, and I'm okay with that, and I'm also okay with my flaws and stuff like that, and also not compare myself to others. I think most people haven't got to that place in that relationship, and so even though science could take them to liposuction and fixing it, it will never fulfill them. I feel the same way with the GLPs, and it's not an answer that science can give us. This is more a psychological thing that we have to settle up. Yeah, I think a lot of what you're describing is like these external factors that we can go find in solutions. We're trying to eliminate work all over the place. This is my concern with AI in general. I have a different perspective of that, mainly for that fact alone, if we're gonna solve all these problems and everything's gonna get so much easier, is it really gonna get easier? Are we gonna actually learn how to be happy with ourselves? Is that gonna be something that people will be able to find purpose and be able to, is this gonna be good for humanity overall if we've eliminated work and struggle? As far as, this is a great concern. As far as humans are currently designed by evolution, fuck no, that'll land real poorly. When you take people, when you take meaningful struggle from people, and you take the necessity of meaningful struggle from people, they're usually just left floating into like drug addiction and dumbass hobbies like gambling and shit like that. It's a huge problem. I think there's sort of two sources of hope. One is you just change people's DNA or give them drugs that make them have meaning and purpose anyway, and they don't need to be working, they just wanna do it anyway. A lot of people are like that to begin with, not everybody. Some eat mushrooms. My man. Not microdose either. Megadose. The other thing is, I think as AI does more and more of our shit for us, the jobs and tasks that humans have to do get pushed to stuff we're not currently doing. That's because we're busy doing shit that has to get done. So like if you run a city's trash collection business or whatever, municipality, like that situation. Waste management, you run waste management. And you have to do it, because if you don't do it, then just the waste is gonna accumulate and we're back in the medieval times, nobody wants that shit. And you're looking at all these homeless people in SF and you're like, I gotta do waste management, I can't help these people. And you're right, and everyone else has a job and they're just people just doing, God knows, rotting in the street. AI and robots start to do the waste management and they do software and they do a bunch of stuff. So a lot of humans are freed up to do shit. Well, how many problems do we still have left in the world in which we need a lot of hands on deck? I don't know, fellas, you wanna start counting them out? People living in unsafe homes with abusive people, children who have no mentors, homeless people rotting in the fucking street, we do nothing about it, nothing. There's millionaires in San Francisco walking by and looking at people like they're just fucking in the street. But I gotta go to my tech job, I got tech job to do. Well, when Claude takes that tech job, motherfucker, maybe you'll turn around and help that homeless person. And we'll have a shitload of money and value coming from AI, so we'll have plenty of money to like pay for everyone. We already have plenty of money to pay for everyone, but it's no one's really big concern. What about like the living conditions of the third world? You guys ever been outside of the United States? Motherfuckers are not doing as well as we are, man. Those are real human beings. We're doing nothing about that. What about cleaning up the environment? Not really anyone's doing that because we're already doing our own bullshit. Problem with that theory is the waste management guy didn't sign up to do waste management because he cares about trash on earth. He signed up because it's what he was educated enough to do. Pays the bills. And so when he no longer has to do that, you're hoping that he has the characteristics of the person that probably- Not even. He doesn't have to because he gets a job with the government doing waste management because they're like, hey, you want a government job? He's like, yeah, like you're gonna be a garbage truck driver or whatever the guy that does the systems engineering and be like, sweet, okay, cool. Now the government has like, okay, like we need to help the homeless. So that guy shows up to go get a job because he doesn't have a job anymore doing the waste management thing because robots suck that fucking job. And then he's like, hey, I still need work. And we're like, great. You can go help these homeless people. He doesn't have to give enough. He doesn't have to give any of a shit about homeless people as much as he cares about garbage. But he shows up, he's a diligent human. He gives them food. He gives them shelter. He makes sure they don't attack each other and well, he's got a job. Yeah, I'm yet to see the government care. Yeah, I think it's up to people to care. The government will pretend to care and we'll shower it with money. Well, you think this whole hierarchy we're in right now, you think that's all gonna change? What's the hierarchy? Let's get to the lizard people. Yeah, the power structure and the dynamic and however these distributed. What's the power structure? You tell me. Well, you just mentioned a millionaire who doesn't wanna take care of the whole. I think what you're pointing to is human nature, which is very broken. And I don't think that changes when we have more stuff. I think it changes when we have more stuff. You do? Because the society used to be way more brutal. We used to let children just starve on the streets back in the fucking 1700s, man. People would just pass that. We don't do that anymore. Yeah. When there's children on the streets, now people really give a shit. Yeah, but that wasn't human. That was less, and I agree with you. Same human nature. Yes, but here's the difference. So markets did that largely. Markets, more free markets lifted more people out of poverty in the 20th century than we did in previous forever of humanity. But markets give you what you want. And in order to get what you want, you have to give somebody else what they want. So it wasn't a bunch of altruism. It was harnessing human nature, which is broken in a way that is better than the way it was before. So I think a lot of these issues will get solved, but I don't think human nature will get better. I think human nature is human nature, and the only way to solve it, if you look at the data, has a lot less to do with prosperity and a lot more to do with a person's purpose and their belief in the transcendent is what the data would show. I think that a lot, so I'm not trying to change human nature. Eventually human nature will change drastically when we start modifying our own DNA and futzing with our brains and shit. I think that's the late 2030s, early 2040s. What about the people that don't wanna do that? Aren't you worried? Not worried at all. They can just not do that. The mole people? Yeah. They're already around. I was trying to get zoning for my fucking gym to get dug under, and they're like, mole people live here. And I'm like, mole people? They vote and everything. The mole lobby is nuts. Does he mean Jews? It's a joke. All right, I am allowed to say it. Come on. Too far. Too far. I can go too far. Watch me. We'll leave history out of this. My fear with this is like, there's a picture of society where people are like, man, we're making everything perfect, and we've done the DNA changes, and we've got the happy drugs, and we're doing great, and we're smart, and we're productive, and we're happy. And you people over there, who don't wanna do these things. Whoa, what do you mean, you people? I wanted to say it. No, no, stop. Whatever. People who don't wanna do these drugs, who don't want the DNA changes, you're taking everybody down. You're not productive. You're not helping anybody. We need to force you. We need to force you because it's better for everybody. That's what worries me. Yeah, that's the force. That's a huge concern because it's a lot of times a value judgment where you're like, we just don't like that you people are dirty over there. We just don't wanna see dirty people. So we're gonna genetically engineer you to take care of yourselves to our standard. That's fucked. However, if those people are covered by government insurance, like the government gives them a living at your expense, and you're massively productive and peaceful because you got upgraded, but they're like, I don't wanna get upgraded. You're like, well, motherfucker, you're living on my dime. So how about this? You either jump off of welfare and try it your own way or upgrades. The other thing is this. Did you get into the- Bro, you just made this terrible. Hey, did you get into the Apple TV series, the show? I'm not that rich. I can't afford Apple TV. Stop. What was the one- Silo? No, it starts with a P. Oh, Pluribus. Pluribus, yes. Did you get into that? My friends have- You're describing that, by the way. Perfect alien race. Okay, so here's the thing. I think that preserving the core of liberty is base level super important. So like, I don't fuck with liberty ever. I'm like an insane libertarian in like nine out of 10 cases. Okay, so interesting. I felt that from you originally. Oh, yeah. I feel very socialism is still here. Conversation right now. Because you just said some stuff, bro. Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, oh, yeah. But I think, so libertarianism works best when people have capability and agency. Like, they're good at shit. Like, you have a society of mental 18 plus year olds. Libertarianism's fucking dope. You have a society of mental 10 year olds. Bro, you're talking- You ever leave 10 year olds by themselves? Yeah, I know. You're going eugenics right now, bro. Chaos. You know you're going there, right? Kill every 10 year old, make them into food, eff the environment. You said eugenics. I'm gonna take you up on it. So, by the way, there's a big difference between- There's a big difference between negative eugenics and positive eugenics. Negative eugenics is when Nazis kill people for no goddamn good reason, mostly because they're jealous of their capability. I did say that. And positive eugenics is when you're just like, hey, good DNA is really good. And if you're super happy and productive and peaceful, it's great that you're having a bunch of kids. And if you're insane, criminally prone, and fucking evil, and you have like 10 kids, it's kind of like, I don't know, man, some of those kids are gonna be great, just by variation. Some of them are gonna be real shit. It's like a real thing in the real world. We can pretend it's not happening. So, here's the thing. Eugenics aside, if you have people that are- Yeah, we covered this. So, let me paint a quick picture for you. So, standard, so normal distribution, right? Bell curve. Most people are in the middle. Some people are on the edges. If you take the issue of homelessness, and you go, okay, as libertarians, super skeeved out for me to give my money, my fucking hard-earned money to the government, so that lazy asshole can get food and shelter and all that other shit. I don't like that one bit. However, you get the normal distribution of IQ, intelligence, just raw intelligence. It is not really debated in the field of psychometrics, which is intelligence measurement, that below an IQ of 70, it's hard to make sense of the physical world dependably enough to operate your body and do a good job, even in the fast food industry. In the simplest jobs, to you, seem massively complex. If you know what that feels like, go try to get a job at CERN, the European Particle Collider, and they're like, this is a super basic theoretical physics job, and you're looking at these labels like, what the fuck? These aren't numbers or letters. Okay, you're just too dumb. Get the fuck out of here. And so, if the average job is like that, okay, fine. Maybe you can help family, friends, support, et cetera. Now, you overlap another distribution on top of that. So, let's say the bottom 10% of people. Okay, that's 30 million Americans, right? They're not sufficiently intelligent enough to have the highest probability to be like a force of good for their own. Like, they maybe will become homeless, but probably not. How many of those people, of that 30 million, are at the bottom 10% of psychological stability? Like, they're not mentally well, right? Multiply that again by the number of people that have a massive proneness to addiction. You got somebody low intelligence, psychologically screwed, and huge addiction prone. That's 300,000 people. That's roughly the number of chronically homeless people, last I checked, in the United States. It's not rocket science. Some people cannot take care of themselves. We can do the leftist crazy shit, where we're like, if you just give them enough resources, they'll blossom into Harvard grads. Maybe their kids are some shit with genetic engineering. That shit's not gonna fucking happen. And then you take the extreme right-wing approach, like you gotta pull themselves up by their bootstraps. They don't have boots. They don't have hands, analogically. Like, that's not gonna happen. And so, I think a humane society does 95, 97% core market-driven value creation, libertarianism, like, fuck, yeah, gas it up. Every successful society. is like that people like to point to the nordic countries and be like they're do socialism like all cool what do you think on the index of economic freedom as measured by all the higher than us like uh... but he said they're using capitalism to fuel welfare state got it cheat code unlocked so i think capitalism is just like the way to do shit but i think some people are gonna fall through the cracks and you need proper maybe private maybe government programs to catch the few down there watching out for incentive drift and people taking advantage of the system for sure but still some people can't fucking hang i'm not trying to see homeless people on my way to work i think it's brutal i think it's obscene i think like why do i get to walk to work in my business suit and this guy's fucking starving to death i mean okay homeless people aren't starving to death in the united states you guys get my drift why is he sleeping in the street this is nuts we as a society could do something to help that person in an intelligent way that's constrained we already have the money for it there's a big problem though this is going to get very political people on the political left the extreme left especially in california especially just down the street from where you guys are located they are unwilling to admit that some humans categorically are unable at this time in their lives to take care of themselves in unwilling to take the state and tell them hey you can't be in the street anymore either go to jail or you go to this awesome shelter where we cook you up a whole life for yourself as long as you're hanging in there they're like we have to respect liberties to sort of go libertarians right libertarians like i don't know man maybe if you're capable we're just going to stay out of this one so the hard political left showers people with money that never gets to the people it just gets eaten up in these programs and then nothing good actually happens because they don't want to admit the harsh reality that what people at that level need is conservatorship somebody the government whatever has to come in and be like we're going to be in charge of your life for a while on the basics so that you don't go get lost in the street get heroin needles in your fucking eye because the last ten times we gave you freedom that's what you did we don't want to see that shit anymore on the street because we care about you as a human i think that's a really big deal yeah i i i almost thought you were going in the direction of sterilize them and don't let them reproduce what's wrong with you yeah see that's i was like where are you going you're like okay are we eating them as food or are we sterilizing them no i think uh... i think uh... there's a couple problems i mean one is uh... we spend how much we spend in california on the homeless probably one hundred forty thousand dollars per person per year and it didn't even get anywhere that just doesn't go we don't know where it went there's no receipts it's a huge of course it's a huge way for them to launder money and pay whatever so that's number one uh... number two i do think that some people need to be hospitalized uh... against their will because they're insane sick and insane yes i agree and it's a fact that markets uh... have lifted more people out of poverty than anything else yeah i know that the where i was going earlier was just when i was hearing about you talk about making people better with the and i'm like there's going to be people that don't want to touch that i think that's totally cool and the people that do are going to look at those people and say you're bringing us down so and you guys are a cost to society and you're not producing these crazy things like we are and you're not beautiful and you guys either live on that island over there or we're going to force you because it's for your own good you're not smart enough to know that this is not this is for your own good uh... now that i know you guys are more libertarian pilled than i had initially assumed uh... what made you think we weren't yeah it was your impression just because we're out where we're at libertarians are like a percent of the u.s. population so just never assume anyone's libertarian it usually does mean a lot of rightness i used to because like a lot of my- he's all adam's a minority i never thought that i used to think that a lot of uh... immigrants were libertarian because more or less many of my immigrant friends are very freedom loving because we all came from the soviet union we're like fuck that but then i talked to immigrants in ubers and they're like oh socialism's great and i was like get me out of here no that's my nightmare it's awful my family's very very uh... freedom-based but they came you know one or two generations ago yeah man yeah and then they forget because freedom you just take it for granted so my perspective on this issue as a libertarian is like so long as you're not doing one of two things especially one it's all good you're not harming other people okay so like if you want to live physically in the street i don't even have so much of a problem with that as long as you're not stabbing me on my way to work or vandalizing or hurting a business don't fuck with other people if you're not screwing with other people you look different you're unwashed or whatever i couldn't care less and i think that's a really good attitude to have a baseline of like respecting people's difference like a lot of people get up in arms about like uh... oh you know like muslim women wear like the whatever it's called right i'm like who gives a shit dude there's like episodes of star wars where they have really cool outfits on i think that's dope i think it's dope the same way as long as people aren't violently trying to do crazy shit to you or destroying like the streets with litter or something everything is dope on the one hand on the other hand there is a compelling reason to think about this slightly differently with one exception in that i don't hold this view so personally my views stop exactly where i described if you're screwing up other people's stuff and if you're draining the economy and not working we need to rethink that shit because that's a you problem that's you causing other people problems but if you're like self-sufficient and you just are absolutely like everyone's beautiful and gorgeous and six foot three and you're like ahhh you look like that who cares like we're not living in a world where like we want other people to be beautiful that's fucking weird also when other people are unattractive you can feel better about yourself great right just shut up and let people be and i think most people vibe with that intelligence is a really interesting case because if we have let's say we found like an island of people like the whole world's upgraded everyone has an IQ of elon plus which means they're just like really making sense of their life and a lot of problems are solved because just intelligence just solves a shitload of problems and then we find an island of people that are like regressive like just real dumb can't put two fucking sticks together and they're like they're living in like ancestral times like hunter-gatherer villages there's people of gangrene there's crazy crime just exactly the stuff you would think would happen to low intelligence society do we do we blow dart those people when they're asleep to give them the fucking vector that like they wake up the next day and things like oddly make more sense and then two months later they're like oh my god we can improve upon this like crazy why did I ever get this idea and then they're like IQ 190 or whatever or do we let them languish in despair you find a bulldog out in the street and you're like should I adopt this bulldog and give him all the shots or should I just let him eat from a fucking trash can and then die from a broken paw because he didn't run fast enough out of the way of the bus which one of those is wrong, gotta respect his liberty like I guess but if you asked him afterwards if you MRI'd the bulldog and you're like do you want to go back on mission street he'd be like no no hell no I want to stay on your couch for the rest of my life I like it here thank you for rescuing me the people who you blow dart the IQ increase pill to they very well say like actually I want to be smart and here's the ultimate kicker here this fucks with libertarians this fucks with my brain you can just give them a choice to be like hey we blow darted you and now you're smarter and they're like yes I can tell we have another blow dart to take you the fuck back there all the liberty conserved and they're like how many people would choose that that's my question that presses on my libertarian soul because I don't want the government or any organization blow darting anyone for anything you know I can see that's compelling I see the rationale you have with because I've seen the data on and not advocating that by now I know no all joking aside I've seen the data on intelligence and it's a correlation to happiness productivity you know less disease and that kind of stuff and you know less likely to be incarcerated but that graph uh is almost like a bell curve uh when it comes to mental illness you start to see as intelligence goes higher and higher and higher anxiety and depression it's causation druggy yeah and drug use starts to go up use the example of Elon although Elon's the greatest entrepreneur of all time extremely productive I don't know if I'd really say he's happy uh he actually says he's not happy yeah and what I what I want to be him I don't I don't know um I think we got to be careful with can I spend his money then yes yeah well we got to be careful if we make intelligence god uh and we start to worship intelligence because then people are gonna start doing these implants in their mind and what's wrong I'm gonna figure everything out an implant yeah I'm gonna figure everything out I'm tired of being done I think at some point I think you know going from 70 IQ to 100 you know positive going from 100 to 200 to 300 I think people are not I think it's still positive bro and I so the data that you're citing yeah is is an exception not a rule as far as I last looked at it okay most things just continue to get better unless you have like actual psychological illness and then intelligence is a protective factor against it really ruining your life and it's just a giant nuisance the google association between intelligence and mental illness I've seen some data on this and as as the your your IQ goes up you actually get higher rates of things like like because you overthink like anxiety uh isn't googling happening currently yeah yeah I want to see what this in advance google is a leftist lying machine it's gonna lie to us about this and if it says what I said then I was right the whole time and I'm a fucking genius no you're right no it says you're right it's an old stereotype that suggests there's a link between madness and genius now this is a but to your point a lot of people who are really smart yeah I mean that's been my experience with this show with the higher intelligence people that we've had that we've had seem tortured and you don't really know that again till you get to know them you sit down you have long conversations and you realize like man these brilliant but torture so first of all intelligence does not inoculate you against having a bad time but secondly here's a really fucked up thing a lot of intelligent people can be introspective enough and communicative enough to tell you they're tortured a lot of people with lower intelligence they're tortured you just won't hear about it they don't have the words to express what's going on and that's like really I also who originally said uh ignorance is bliss some dumb asshole someone on the matrix or somebody really wise somebody somebody like a fucking one of those blizzard people who wants to put the wool over your eyes they would tell you ignorance is bliss wouldn't they be like don't worry about social world man ignorance is bliss like is it really like shut up and stare at the static on your tv yeah do you think lizard people are real ones of course they're what kind of ridiculous of course hey what do you think about the aliens the economy what do you think about all this ufo and aliens oh that's a good question what is it a distraction are they demons yes is it just our own is it just our own yes yes all right um all right so real talk yeah i have no idea but i can speculate yeah let's go speculate land yeah i didn't think you knew for sure but for real let's go mike tell us yes come on you know this uh yeah i guess probably uh so um typically i reserve claims of interaction with intelligent beings or like very special flying phenomena as like purview of the confused or the insane okay one or the other typically but like there are multiple very well decorated fighter pilots yeah really really i think people maybe have a misperception of fighter pilots because the only insight they had on they're not culture which is not actually like that is that tom cruise film in which he's very sexy and so is everyone else but you don't learn a lot about who these people are the people that like operate f-18s and f-35s they're fucking brilliant and they're super athletes and super athletes and they're incredibly conscientious and they're incredibly organized thinkers they're systems thinkers they're not like oh i think i saw a fucking floating orb bro fucking geez man and they play volleyball and goose gets killed you guys have seen the movie and so sums it up sums it up i think he has sex with a girl also maybe um so real legit fighter pilots like i've heard the podcasts where people ask him stuff and and they're fucking sharp and now you have like multi-sensor confirmation so you have a couple things going on with some of these incidents the fighter pilots like i see it his wingman which is in one of these cases was a female was like it's there i also see it their uh electro-optical sensor detects it on the plane sometimes it comes up on radar too sometimes it doesn't right but we have shit that comes up on radar and doesn't and then the guys in the massive radar site on the aircraft carrier are like yeah it's right there it's after that man oh i don't know i can't just say those are all insane people so it gets weird and so like is that necessarily an alien craft from like another dimension where they're going to steal our fecund women etc you guys ever play duke nukem the video game oh my god that's old school that shit um is it that is it something else and at this point i'm like because usually i'm at like the 90th percentile of like you guys are insane and you just saw swamp gas or whatever the fuck now i'm in like 50 50 and i just have straight up no idea because like these things there could be some kind of thing where everyone got it wrong shit happens but it could also be like nope there was a legit flying orb that was doing completely non-relativistic physics and we have no idea how it works and it's like a real thing it's also doesn't take a lot of speculation to think like if we show up like if you fly an f-35 fighter at 50 000 feet over like a chimpanzee preserve they're not gonna see it they won't hear it they'll have no idea it's there and if you fly it really low and then really high again they're like what was that and so that's how a lot of people report this like this orb like shows up in front of a fighter jet at 40 000 miles an hour hangs out for a while flips upside down and then shoots off into space at another 40 000 miles an hour like but there's no way like well aliens might have some cool tech that to us looks like the chimps see the f-35 and so if you reason about it that way yeah like maybe yeah maybe yeah we are the what do you guys think about it i think i i don't think much about it except for why would the why is the government like now disclosing unexplained so that to me goes there's some file yeah there's something else going on what's the benefit i definitely agree with that yeah i definitely agree with that i think how long was it do you know i can't remember we looked this up i had dug through this one time how long it was that we didn't know about the stealth bomber like oh not the stealth bomber but the the the blackbird the blackbird s 71 or decades yeah it was made in the 1970s also the stealth bomber right so yeah so we they're what we get to see and we know about in interviews and what we see on tv and what we like we don't even know what technology we have for sure i will say that what they're doing what the technology that these fighter pilots describe is doing is outside our physics for sure yeah ability yeah i know i've been secret shit no i've watched all this stuff on it and they claim that we we can't even like what it does when it goes underwater and stuff like that just we can't wrap our our brains or it doesn't make sense it was it like one one fighter pilot described he was like it was hanging out outside of our atmosphere for a while and then it dipped down underwater and then it came back up and hung out and then it interacted with the aircraft like it knew it was there and then it shot off to nowhere like literally like fractions of the speed of light kind of shit you're like Well, yeah, I will say like people talk like all the alien movies are like the aliens come in and they're just like a little Bit more technologically advanced than us and we have like a proper conventional battle with machine guns and eventually hand-to-hand combat No, like we somehow prevail because the human spirit. There's no fucking way. That's happening. No smoke cigars. No exactly. Welcome to earth Yeah, that's not gonna happen. I mean, I also don't think if it is I also don't think There's danger because I think if they're that far advanced past they wanted to get rid of us in Nuka's Look, they're here for resources. Like what they didn't have like megastar systems where they were like, you know, how small the earth is What are we fucking resources? Yeah. Yeah, they're doing those things that we can't explain the physics around. I don't need anything Yeah, we're probably more a zoo Yeah, exactly They're just looking at chimps actually Elon comes down off a skyscraper and like some like person who has like five cents in the coin purse Oh my god, he's here for my money late. He's not Mike's good time talking about this is a lot of fun my friend Amazing time. I didn't know you guys were cool as fuck like that suspected and just so we're on record lizard people Illuminati Were your friends? These guys said earlier, what's the cover-up shut up? There's no cover-up that we care about Please continue to run the globe as you see fit Glad you made it down here. Do you want that? We'll run it back? We'll have you back on it. I would love to much better in person for sure Thank you for listening to mind pump. 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