Micky Malka, Founder of Ribbit Capital

Thanks for doing this, Mickey. Thanks for doing this, Mickey. >> David, it's a pleasure to be here with >> David, it's a pleasure to be here with >> David, it's a pleasure to be here with you. you. you. >> There's so many times in our previous >> There's so many times in our previous >> There's so many times in our previous conversations where I'm listening to you conversations where I'm listening to you conversations where I'm listening to you speak and I'm like, "Shit, Mickey really speak and I'm like, "Shit, Mickey really speak and I'm like, "Shit, Mickey really does think and act a lot uh very similar does think and act a lot uh very similar does think and act a lot uh very similar to like a lot of history's greatest to like a lot of history's greatest to like a lot of history's greatest entrepreneurs that I read all these entrepreneurs that I read all these entrepreneurs that I read all these biographies about for Founder's biographies about for Founder's biographies about for Founder's Podcast." And one thing that I think you Podcast." And one thing that I think you Podcast." And one thing that I think you have in common with them and that you have in common with them and that you have in common with them and that you said before to me is that you hate being said before to me is that you hate being said before to me is that you hate being labeled. Can you say more about that? labeled. Can you say more about that? labeled. Can you say more about that? >> I think it's a way of always growing up >> I think it's a way of always growing up >> I think it's a way of always growing up in Venezuela and in all my life you in Venezuela and in all my life you in Venezuela and in all my life you never had people being labeled. I never never had people being labeled. I never never had people being labeled. I never learned what what what that was about. learned what what what that was about. learned what what what that was about. And every time somebody tried to put me And every time somebody tried to put me And every time somebody tried to put me on a label, I fought really hard to get on a label, I fought really hard to get on a label, I fought really hard to get out of it. From, "Hey, are you tall? So out of it. From, "Hey, are you tall? So out of it. From, "Hey, are you tall? So you must be play good at basketball." you must be play good at basketball." you must be play good at basketball." And my first answer is, "No, I suck at And my first answer is, "No, I suck at And my first answer is, "No, I suck at basketball." Just trying to get all my basketball." Just trying to get all my basketball." Just trying to get all my myself out of any particular label all myself out of any particular label all myself out of any particular label all the way to, "Are you an investor? Are the way to, "Are you an investor? Are the way to, "Are you an investor? Are you an entrepreneur?" And I said, "What you an entrepreneur?" And I said, "What you an entrepreneur?" And I said, "What about if I'm both? about if I'm both? about if I'm both? What about if I'm not any? Why do I need What about if I'm not any? Why do I need What about if I'm not any? Why do I need a label?" a label?" a label?" And the more you walk through life And the more you walk through life And the more you walk through life allowing things to have label, allowing things to have label, allowing things to have label, the more difficult life is because then the more difficult life is because then the more difficult life is because then you cannot see through it. You just see you cannot see through it. You just see you cannot see through it. You just see what you've been told to see. what you've been told to see. what you've been told to see. So I think it's part of my rebel cause So I think it's part of my rebel cause So I think it's part of my rebel cause to never accept labels. to never accept labels. to never accept labels. >> Yeah, I think if you're labeled, it >> Yeah, I think if you're labeled, it >> Yeah, I think if you're labeled, it means you're kind of conforming to like means you're kind of conforming to like means you're kind of conforming to like an existing mold. And I think the great an existing mold. And I think the great an existing mold. And I think the great founders, they're inherently founders, they're inherently founders, they're inherently non-conformists. non-conformists. non-conformists. >> Yes, and you have to be non-conformist >> Yes, and you have to be non-conformist >> Yes, and you have to be non-conformist because the world can always be better. because the world can always be better. because the world can always be better. So why accept whatever is there today? So why accept whatever is there today? So why accept whatever is there today? >> So when you just said, "Hey, are you an >> So when you just said, "Hey, are you an >> So when you just said, "Hey, are you an entrepreneur? Are you an investor? Maybe entrepreneur? Are you an investor? Maybe entrepreneur? Are you an investor? Maybe I'm both, maybe I'm neither." Like I'm both, maybe I'm neither." Like I'm both, maybe I'm neither." Like today, how do you how do you view today, how do you how do you view today, how do you how do you view yourself? yourself? yourself? >> So I describe myself as an entrepreneur >> So I describe myself as an entrepreneur >> So I describe myself as an entrepreneur at heart, an investor by design. at heart, an investor by design. at heart, an investor by design. Such a general line that allows me to do Such a general line that allows me to do Such a general line that allows me to do anything, right? Some days I can wake up anything, right? Some days I can wake up anything, right? Some days I can wake up and be an entrepreneur, some days I can and be an entrepreneur, some days I can and be an entrepreneur, some days I can be an investor, some days I can be both, be an investor, some days I can be both, be an investor, some days I can be both, some days I can be something completely some days I can be something completely some days I can be something completely different. But at heart means that it different. But at heart means that it different. But at heart means that it comes from a place from inside that if I comes from a place from inside that if I comes from a place from inside that if I change my heart, I can just change it. change my heart, I can just change it. change my heart, I can just change it. And by design means that if I learn, I And by design means that if I learn, I And by design means that if I learn, I keep learning how to do something, I can keep learning how to do something, I can keep learning how to do something, I can only get better at it. So, I just allow only get better at it. So, I just allow only get better at it. So, I just allow myself to keep learning. myself to keep learning. myself to keep learning. >> So, there's really no like you're >> So, there's really no like you're >> So, there's really no like you're completely fluid. You don't really I put completely fluid. You don't really I put completely fluid. You don't really I put it like a label on yourself. it like a label on yourself. it like a label on yourself. >> Correct. I don't. I try and I avoid it. >> Correct. I don't. I try and I avoid it. >> Correct. I don't. I try and I avoid it. The only label I I want to I want to get The only label I I want to I want to get The only label I I want to I want to get in life is that people say I'm a in life is that people say I'm a in life is that people say I'm a great friend, I'm a great partner, and great friend, I'm a great partner, and great friend, I'm a great partner, and I'm a good father. I'm a good father. I'm a good father. And if I can get that label, that label And if I can get that label, that label And if I can get that label, that label I would love to have. All of the other I would love to have. All of the other I would love to have. All of the other ones, I don't care. ones, I don't care. ones, I don't care. >> Yeah, I'm always interested in how >> Yeah, I'm always interested in how >> Yeah, I'm always interested in how people think about like their own people think about like their own people think about like their own perception of their work because I just perception of their work because I just perception of their work because I just had this great conversation with Rick had this great conversation with Rick had this great conversation with Rick Rubin. And I had to like interrupt him Rubin. And I had to like interrupt him Rubin. And I had to like interrupt him one time cuz he's like, "Yeah, I kind of one time cuz he's like, "Yeah, I kind of one time cuz he's like, "Yeah, I kind of think of myself as a researcher." think of myself as a researcher." think of myself as a researcher." And I'm like, "What?" Cuz you know, the And I'm like, "What?" Cuz you know, the And I'm like, "What?" Cuz you know, the people think music producer and now he's people think music producer and now he's people think music producer and now he's a podcaster and you know, he's a a podcaster and you know, he's a a podcaster and you know, he's a consigliere to like some of the top consigliere to like some of the top consigliere to like some of the top artists in the world. He's just like, artists in the world. He's just like, artists in the world. He's just like, "I'm all day I'm just like finding what "I'm all day I'm just like finding what "I'm all day I'm just like finding what I'm intensely curious about and just I'm intensely curious about and just I'm intensely curious about and just researching that as far as I can." researching that as far as I can." researching that as far as I can." >> And I think that's what it takes. And >> And I think that's what it takes. And >> And I think that's what it takes. And that's what entrepreneurs do every day, that's what entrepreneurs do every day, that's what entrepreneurs do every day, and that's what a great investor does and that's what a great investor does and that's what a great investor does every day. But you don't get a label every day. But you don't get a label every day. But you don't get a label like that, but yes, I will agree with like that, but yes, I will agree with like that, but yes, I will agree with you. you. you. >> Question. I went to your website. I've >> Question. I went to your website. I've >> Question. I went to your website. I've read a bunch of these like What do you read a bunch of these like What do you read a bunch of these like What do you call them? They're not even manifestos. call them? They're not even manifestos. call them? They're not even manifestos. What do you Are they essays? What do you Are they essays? What do you Are they essays? >> They're essays. >> They're essays. >> They're essays. >> Okay. So, I'm very curious. You've only >> Okay. So, I'm very curious. You've only >> Okay. So, I'm very curious. You've only done a handful. done a handful. done a handful. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Uh I'm very curious like how your >> Uh I'm very curious like how your >> Uh I'm very curious like how your writing shapes you not only your writing shapes you not only your writing shapes you not only your thinking, but also what you want to thinking, but also what you want to thinking, but also what you want to build through Ribbit. build through Ribbit. build through Ribbit. >> Writing is everything. >> Writing is everything. >> Writing is everything. Because we can sit here and talk about Because we can sit here and talk about Because we can sit here and talk about ideas for hours, but if you're not ideas for hours, but if you're not ideas for hours, but if you're not willing to put them in writing, you will willing to put them in writing, you will willing to put them in writing, you will never learn what truly they they are, never learn what truly they they are, never learn what truly they they are, how deep they are. And what I find is how deep they are. And what I find is how deep they are. And what I find is typically those essays that you typically those essays that you typically those essays that you that that you read, that that you read, that that you read, uh they start by being probably 20 pages uh they start by being probably 20 pages uh they start by being probably 20 pages long, long, long, but I can actually get a napkin but I can actually get a napkin but I can actually get a napkin and explain to you each one in a napkin. and explain to you each one in a napkin. and explain to you each one in a napkin. And if I can do that, if anybody can And if I can do that, if anybody can And if I can do that, if anybody can explain anything complex to you in a explain anything complex to you in a explain anything complex to you in a napkin, it means that they have studied napkin, it means that they have studied napkin, it means that they have studied enough that they know how to articulate enough that they know how to articulate enough that they know how to articulate it. it. it. So, what we do there is we start by So, what we do there is we start by So, what we do there is we start by writing our essays. And our essays, what writing our essays. And our essays, what writing our essays. And our essays, what they are allowing us to do is to not they are allowing us to do is to not they are allowing us to do is to not conform to what the world thinks today. conform to what the world thinks today. conform to what the world thinks today. It's to allow us to conform to what the It's to allow us to conform to what the It's to allow us to conform to what the world looks like in 10 years, 15 years. world looks like in 10 years, 15 years. world looks like in 10 years, 15 years. Just imagine and let it let it flow. Let Just imagine and let it let it flow. Let Just imagine and let it let it flow. Let it go. Let let that energy it go. Let let that energy it go. Let let that energy get out there. Let that energy be taken get out there. Let that energy be taken get out there. Let that energy be taken from from from our brains and our Q&A's and our our brains and our Q&A's and our our brains and our Q&A's and our diligence and our calls. Just put it out diligence and our calls. Just put it out diligence and our calls. Just put it out there and see what happens. there and see what happens. there and see what happens. >> Why do you think that's that's >> Why do you think that's that's >> Why do you think that's that's beneficial? beneficial? beneficial? >> Because it gives you conviction. >> Because it gives you conviction. >> Because it gives you conviction. If you cannot have conviction, then If you cannot have conviction, then If you cannot have conviction, then you're going to be going in mood swings you're going to be going in mood swings you're going to be going in mood swings with the markets. Up and down. If with the markets. Up and down. If with the markets. Up and down. If something changes, you got to be able something changes, you got to be able something changes, you got to be able The only way to really have a joyful The only way to really have a joyful The only way to really have a joyful investment life or life in general is to investment life or life in general is to investment life or life in general is to try to play this very long infinite try to play this very long infinite try to play this very long infinite game. game. game. And the only way to do that well is to And the only way to do that well is to And the only way to do that well is to have to you need conviction in whatever have to you need conviction in whatever have to you need conviction in whatever you do. You got to be willing to be you do. You got to be willing to be you do. You got to be willing to be wrong for a long time. But if I write it wrong for a long time. But if I write it wrong for a long time. But if I write it and we put it in writing and we share it and we put it in writing and we share it and we put it in writing and we share it with the world and we get feedback, it with the world and we get feedback, it with the world and we get feedback, it allows us to make sure that the compass allows us to make sure that the compass allows us to make sure that the compass is in the right direction. is in the right direction. is in the right direction. >> How long did they take to write? >> How long did they take to write? >> How long did they take to write? >> Some of them can take us a year. >> Some of them can take us a year. >> Some of them can take us a year. Some of them can take us four, five Some of them can take us four, five Some of them can take us four, five months. But the whole process to get a months. But the whole process to get a months. But the whole process to get a thesis that we like, sit down, think thesis that we like, sit down, think thesis that we like, sit down, think about it, about it, about it, articulate it, test it, share it, come articulate it, test it, share it, come articulate it, test it, share it, come back, work it, probably like a year, back, work it, probably like a year, back, work it, probably like a year, year and a half. year and a half. year and a half. >> I know you're a fan of Buffett. You've >> I know you're a fan of Buffett. You've >> I know you're a fan of Buffett. You've been a shareholder for been a shareholder for been a shareholder for >> All my life. >> All my life. >> All my life. >> Yeah, like more than 20 >> Yeah, like more than 20 >> Yeah, like more than 20 >> 13. >> 13. >> 13. >> That's crazy. >> That's crazy. >> That's crazy. >> You know. >> You know. >> You know. >> I saw one of your tweets. I think it was >> I saw one of your tweets. I think it was >> I saw one of your tweets. I think it was from like 2015 and he was like from like 2015 and he was like from like 2015 and he was like I think you were holding for like 25 I think you were holding for like 25 I think you were holding for like 25 years or something like that at that years or something like that at that years or something like that at that point. So, even more now. And I know you point. So, even more now. And I know you point. So, even more now. And I know you write all his shareholder letters, which write all his shareholder letters, which write all his shareholder letters, which I'm a huge fan of. Did that influence I'm a huge fan of. Did that influence I'm a huge fan of. Did that influence your decision to start writing these your decision to start writing these your decision to start writing these essays? essays? essays? >> Completely. So, >> Completely. So, >> Completely. So, I bought my first share of Berkshire I bought my first share of Berkshire I bought my first share of Berkshire when I was 13 years old in Venezuela. It when I was 13 years old in Venezuela. It when I was 13 years old in Venezuela. It was November of 1987. was November of 1987. was November of 1987. >> How? >> How? >> How? >> It was my >> It was my >> It was my >> Why would a 13-year-old be interested in >> Why would a 13-year-old be interested in >> Why would a 13-year-old be interested in in Berkshire? in Berkshire? in Berkshire? >> I don't know. I had read a few articles >> I don't know. I had read a few articles >> I don't know. I had read a few articles uh in Fortune magazine about him, about uh in Fortune magazine about him, about uh in Fortune magazine about him, about about American Express, about Coca-Cola, about American Express, about Coca-Cola, about American Express, about Coca-Cola, about a certain brands, and I loved the about a certain brands, and I loved the about a certain brands, and I loved the brands he he had in his portfolio. I brands he he had in his portfolio. I brands he he had in his portfolio. I didn't know anything about float or didn't know anything about float or didn't know anything about float or insurance. I was not very familiar with insurance. I was not very familiar with insurance. I was not very familiar with that line of the business. that line of the business. that line of the business. >> I would hope not at 13. >> I would hope not at 13. >> I would hope not at 13. >> And and back then, what he you what what >> And and back then, what he you what what >> And and back then, what he you what what uh he used to say was buy it and get it uh he used to say was buy it and get it uh he used to say was buy it and get it shipped mailed to you in physical form. shipped mailed to you in physical form. shipped mailed to you in physical form. Don't leave it in a broker house so Don't leave it in a broker house so Don't leave it in a broker house so people cannot margin against it. And people cannot margin against it. And people cannot margin against it. And there I was. I was 13. I had had my Bar there I was. I was 13. I had had my Bar there I was. I was 13. I had had my Bar Mitzvah in November of '87. Mitzvah in November of '87. Mitzvah in November of '87. Uh the crash had happened a month Uh the crash had happened a month Uh the crash had happened a month before, the October '87 crash. Stock before, the October '87 crash. Stock before, the October '87 crash. Stock went down a lot, and I didn't collect went down a lot, and I didn't collect went down a lot, and I didn't collect enough money to buy one share, so I had enough money to buy one share, so I had enough money to buy one share, so I had to ask my grandfather for a loan. to ask my grandfather for a loan. to ask my grandfather for a loan. Asked for a loan, which he charged me Asked for a loan, which he charged me Asked for a loan, which he charged me interest as a way to teach me. interest as a way to teach me. interest as a way to teach me. And bought one share and had it mailed And bought one share and had it mailed And bought one share and had it mailed in the mail. It showed up in Venezuela. in the mail. It showed up in Venezuela. in the mail. It showed up in Venezuela. Uh luckily, I don't know how I didn't Uh luckily, I don't know how I didn't Uh luckily, I don't know how I didn't lose it. And and so since then, every lose it. And and so since then, every lose it. And and so since then, every year I got the annual letters by by by year I got the annual letters by by by year I got the annual letters by by by mail. mail. mail. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I would read them, and I would >> And I would read them, and I would >> And I would read them, and I would highlight them, and then I would go and highlight them, and then I would go and highlight them, and then I would go and learn that maybe you have to buy the learn that maybe you have to buy the learn that maybe you have to buy the little book from The Wall Street Journal little book from The Wall Street Journal little book from The Wall Street Journal called Understanding Money and Markets called Understanding Money and Markets called Understanding Money and Markets because you uh there were terms I didn't because you uh there were terms I didn't because you uh there were terms I didn't understand in the letter. And my understand in the letter. And my understand in the letter. And my self-learning came from doing all of self-learning came from doing all of self-learning came from doing all of that since I was 13. that since I was 13. that since I was 13. >> Imagine what a 13-year-old kid could do >> Imagine what a 13-year-old kid could do >> Imagine what a 13-year-old kid could do now with AI. Like if he wanted to he or now with AI. Like if he wanted to he or now with AI. Like if he wanted to he or she wanted to go through Buffett's she wanted to go through Buffett's she wanted to go through Buffett's letters and then I was just this like letters and then I was just this like letters and then I was just this like thought partner and companion compared thought partner and companion compared thought partner and companion compared to you having to buy a book and and look to you having to buy a book and and look to you having to buy a book and and look into the definition of a word. into the definition of a word. into the definition of a word. >> Like I I I was thinking about it, and I >> Like I I I was thinking about it, and I >> Like I I I was thinking about it, and I was saying if I were to do it again at was saying if I were to do it again at was saying if I were to do it again at 13 now 13 now 13 now with all of these, I would go to AI and with all of these, I would go to AI and with all of these, I would go to AI and tell them write do me take those tell them write do me take those tell them write do me take those letters, find me the Buffett Partnership letters, find me the Buffett Partnership letters, find me the Buffett Partnership letters from before, which are very hard letters from before, which are very hard letters from before, which are very hard to find, but you can find them. to find, but you can find them. to find, but you can find them. Read them, analyze them, come back to Read them, analyze them, come back to Read them, analyze them, come back to me, give me the like it will be insane me, give me the like it will be insane me, give me the like it will be insane what you can do. Now, I think you will what you can do. Now, I think you will what you can do. Now, I think you will lose a little bit of the nuance lose a little bit of the nuance lose a little bit of the nuance because part of it, if you read them because part of it, if you read them because part of it, if you read them carefully enough, and you you've done carefully enough, and you you've done carefully enough, and you you've done it, you know that there's the pattern it, you know that there's the pattern it, you know that there's the pattern repeats, and what you learn from it is repeats, and what you learn from it is repeats, and what you learn from it is not the decisions he makes, it's how in not the decisions he makes, it's how in not the decisions he makes, it's how in any environment he repeats the same any environment he repeats the same any environment he repeats the same pattern of decision-making process. And pattern of decision-making process. And pattern of decision-making process. And that's the most important thing that you that's the most important thing that you that's the most important thing that you get from reading it. I don't know if AI get from reading it. I don't know if AI get from reading it. I don't know if AI can give you that. can give you that. can give you that. >> say more about that. >> say more about that. >> say more about that. >> So, it doesn't matter if you were in the >> So, it doesn't matter if you were in the >> So, it doesn't matter if you were in the 1970s when there was a little bit of 1970s when there was a little bit of 1970s when there was a little bit of inflation or high inflation in America inflation or high inflation in America inflation or high inflation in America compared to standards, and he talked compared to standards, and he talked compared to standards, and he talked there about how he treated float and how there about how he treated float and how there about how he treated float and how float of insurance worked, or in the era float of insurance worked, or in the era float of insurance worked, or in the era of zero interest rates on on on on and of zero interest rates on on on on and of zero interest rates on on on on and then how he talked about float and the then how he talked about float and the then how he talked about float and the cost of float. It didn't matter what was cost of float. It didn't matter what was cost of float. It didn't matter what was the microeconomic conditions of the the microeconomic conditions of the the microeconomic conditions of the world or the microeconomic conditions of world or the microeconomic conditions of world or the microeconomic conditions of the interest rate. He used the same the interest rate. He used the same the interest rate. He used the same pattern every single time to define how pattern every single time to define how pattern every single time to define how to think about money. to think about money. to think about money. >> Why do you think that's so special that >> Why do you think that's so special that >> Why do you think that's so special that he used the same pattern? he used the same pattern? he used the same pattern? >> Because I think it's the discipline that >> Because I think it's the discipline that >> Because I think it's the discipline that he built. He just defined was amazing at he built. He just defined was amazing at he built. He just defined was amazing at taking all the noise away, taking all the noise away, taking all the noise away, canceling noise, and focusing on the canceling noise, and focusing on the canceling noise, and focusing on the three things that matter the most. And three things that matter the most. And three things that matter the most. And that only you can do if you study that only you can do if you study that only you can do if you study enough. enough. enough. What I learned, and I went to the annual What I learned, and I went to the annual What I learned, and I went to the annual meetings for a number of years, and I meetings for a number of years, and I meetings for a number of years, and I got to meet him and hang out with him got to meet him and hang out with him got to meet him and hang out with him afterwards and all of that for a number afterwards and all of that for a number afterwards and all of that for a number of years, of years, of years, to me, going there was not learning to me, going there was not learning to me, going there was not learning anything new, it was just seeing how he anything new, it was just seeing how he anything new, it was just seeing how he applied those principles to the new applied those principles to the new applied those principles to the new economic conditions that every year were economic conditions that every year were economic conditions that every year were around. around. around. >> I want to tell you about the presenting >> I want to tell you about the presenting >> I want to tell you about the presenting sponsor of this podcast, Ramp. I have sponsor of this podcast, Ramp. I have sponsor of this podcast, Ramp. I have been reading a lot about SpaceX lately. been reading a lot about SpaceX lately. been reading a lot about SpaceX lately. SpaceX is one of the most valuable SpaceX is one of the most valuable SpaceX is one of the most valuable businesses in the world, and one of the businesses in the world, and one of the businesses in the world, and one of the main themes in the history of SpaceX is main themes in the history of SpaceX is main themes in the history of SpaceX is constantly attacking and questioning constantly attacking and questioning constantly attacking and questioning your cost. Ramp helps many of the most your cost. Ramp helps many of the most your cost. Ramp helps many of the most innovative businesses in the world do innovative businesses in the world do innovative businesses in the world do exactly that. The median company running exactly that. The median company running exactly that. The median company running on Ramp cuts their expenses by 5%, and on Ramp cuts their expenses by 5%, and on Ramp cuts their expenses by 5%, and one thing SpaceX has demonstrated is one thing SpaceX has demonstrated is one thing SpaceX has demonstrated is that a religious dedication to that a religious dedication to that a religious dedication to controlling costs can help actually controlling costs can help actually controlling costs can help actually increase revenue because you can pursue increase revenue because you can pursue increase revenue because you can pursue opportunities you couldn't otherwise. opportunities you couldn't otherwise. opportunities you couldn't otherwise. And we see that in the Ramp data, too. And we see that in the Ramp data, too. And we see that in the Ramp data, too. The median company running on Ramp also The median company running on Ramp also The median company running on Ramp also grows their revenue by 16%. grows their revenue by 16%. grows their revenue by 16%. So, when you're running your business on So, when you're running your business on So, when you're running your business on Ramp and your competitors are not, you Ramp and your competitors are not, you Ramp and your competitors are not, you have a massive competitive advantage have a massive competitive advantage have a massive competitive advantage that compounds over time. Ramp is the that compounds over time. Ramp is the that compounds over time. Ramp is the only platform designed to make your only platform designed to make your only platform designed to make your finance team faster and happier. Many of finance team faster and happier. Many of finance team faster and happier. Many of the top founders and CEOs I know run the top founders and CEOs I know run the top founders and CEOs I know run their business [music] on Ramp. I run my their business [music] on Ramp. I run my their business [music] on Ramp. I run my business on Ramp, and you should, too. business on Ramp, and you should, too. business on Ramp, and you should, too. Go to ramp.com to learn how they can Go to ramp.com to learn how they can Go to ramp.com to learn how they can help your business save time, save help your business save time, save help your business save time, save money, and grow revenue. That is money, and grow revenue. That is money, and grow revenue. That is ramp.com. ramp.com. ramp.com. >> This is really special to me right now >> This is really special to me right now >> This is really special to me right now because have you spent any time with because have you spent any time with because have you spent any time with Daniel Ek in person? Daniel Ek in person? Daniel Ek in person? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Okay. He's one of like the wisest people >> Okay. He's one of like the wisest people >> Okay. He's one of like the wisest people I know, and I know, and I know, and I I just did the right like a couple I I just did the right like a couple I I just did the right like a couple days after I filmed that episode with days after I filmed that episode with days after I filmed that episode with Rick Rubin. Rick Rubin. Rick Rubin. Who again like I've been making episodes Who again like I've been making episodes Who again like I've been making episodes with Rick Rubin forever. Like I grew up with Rick Rubin forever. Like I grew up with Rick Rubin forever. Like I grew up loving hip-hop. So, he found a Def Jam loving hip-hop. So, he found a Def Jam loving hip-hop. So, he found a Def Jam in his dorm room, which is one of the in his dorm room, which is one of the in his dorm room, which is one of the most iconic most iconic most iconic hip-hop record labels. And so like, you hip-hop record labels. And so like, you hip-hop record labels. And so like, you know, for probably a decade and a half I know, for probably a decade and a half I know, for probably a decade and a half I was a fan of Rick Rubin from afar before was a fan of Rick Rubin from afar before was a fan of Rick Rubin from afar before I got to meet him. I got to meet him. I got to meet him. And then I had like probably I don't And then I had like probably I don't And then I had like probably I don't know a couple days, maybe a week later I know a couple days, maybe a week later I know a couple days, maybe a week later I was having a drink with Daniel. And he was having a drink with Daniel. And he was having a drink with Daniel. And he goes, "Well, how was the your how was it goes, "Well, how was the your how was it goes, "Well, how was the your how was it hanging out with Rick?" hanging out with Rick?" hanging out with Rick?" And I was just like, "What's What was And I was just like, "What's What was And I was just like, "What's What was fascinating to me is just like fascinating to me is just like fascinating to me is just like the aura is still there, but if you the aura is still there, but if you the aura is still there, but if you actually analyze Rick and his career, actually analyze Rick and his career, actually analyze Rick and his career, Rick Rubin and his career, it's just Rick Rubin and his career, it's just Rick Rubin and his career, it's just like he had like basically when he was like he had like basically when he was like he had like basically when he was 19 when he started Def Jam, and now I 19 when he started Def Jam, and now I 19 when he started Def Jam, and now I think he's 63. He had like four ideas. think he's 63. He had like four ideas. think he's 63. He had like four ideas. And these ideas are not [ __ ] And these ideas are not [ __ ] And these ideas are not [ __ ] complicated. It's like the adherence to complicated. It's like the adherence to complicated. It's like the adherence to the love of simplicity, the love of simplicity, the love of simplicity, reduction instead of production, always reduction instead of production, always reduction instead of production, always working with the very best people you working with the very best people you working with the very best people you possibly can, building the product for possibly can, building the product for possibly can, building the product for yourself first. He's just making yourself first. He's just making yourself first. He's just making literally he is the patient zero. literally he is the patient zero. literally he is the patient zero. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I'm just building stuff that I want to >> I'm just building stuff that I want to >> I'm just building stuff that I want to see. And I was like, yeah, that's it. see. And I was like, yeah, that's it. see. And I was like, yeah, that's it. And I was like I it's it's you know, And I was like I it's it's you know, And I was like I it's it's you know, remarkable that those are like the remarkable that those are like the remarkable that those are like the components of that. And I was like, it components of that. And I was like, it components of that. And I was like, it it seem that special because they're it seem that special because they're it seem that special because they're just so so simple ideas. Like, yeah, but just so so simple ideas. Like, yeah, but just so so simple ideas. Like, yeah, but who adheres to the same four ideas for who adheres to the same four ideas for who adheres to the same four ideas for 40 years? 40 years? 40 years? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I was like, [ __ ] that is what's >> I was like, [ __ ] that is what's >> I was like, [ __ ] that is what's special. It's very so much what you just special. It's very so much what you just special. It's very so much what you just said about that. said about that. said about that. >> what's special. >> what's special. >> what's special. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that's why they're writing it >> And that's why they're writing it >> And that's why they're writing it special for us. special for us. special for us. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> to adhere to that. >> to adhere to that. >> to adhere to that. >> So, do you want to talk about I the one >> So, do you want to talk about I the one >> So, do you want to talk about I the one that you you wrote you wrote recently on that you you wrote you wrote recently on that you you wrote you wrote recently on tokens? So, I love I love what you just tokens? So, I love I love what you just tokens? So, I love I love what you just said. Like, I can you read it, it's very said. Like, I can you read it, it's very said. Like, I can you read it, it's very long and there's charts and everything long and there's charts and everything long and there's charts and everything else, but you're like, I can distill it else, but you're like, I can distill it else, but you're like, I can distill it down into a napkin. I think compression down into a napkin. I think compression down into a napkin. I think compression is understanding. Let's start with like is understanding. Let's start with like is understanding. Let's start with like the the napkin version of the token the the napkin version of the token the the napkin version of the token essay and then you can expand on it from essay and then you can expand on it from essay and then you can expand on it from there. there. there. >> The concept is very simple. The word >> The concept is very simple. The word >> The concept is very simple. The word token means something different to token means something different to token means something different to everybody. If we sat with with Ryan from everybody. If we sat with with Ryan from everybody. If we sat with with Ryan from Visa, the word he defines token is Visa, the word he defines token is Visa, the word he defines token is different than the word that Sundar has different than the word that Sundar has different than the word that Sundar has for token at at Google or the different for token at at Google or the different for token at at Google or the different word that OpenAI has for token or on word that OpenAI has for token or on word that OpenAI has for token or on topic. They're all different, but they topic. They're all different, but they topic. They're all different, but they all mean the same. It's machine readable all mean the same. It's machine readable all mean the same. It's machine readable information. So, if you think about the information. So, if you think about the information. So, if you think about the companies, we call them token factories companies, we call them token factories companies, we call them token factories because just think about the industrial because just think about the industrial because just think about the industrial revolution example in this token revolution example in this token revolution example in this token revolution era revolution era revolution era where every company needs a supply of where every company needs a supply of where every company needs a supply of tokens, of information, tokens, of information, tokens, of information, money and knowledge, and then they do money and knowledge, and then they do money and knowledge, and then they do something and they deliver something something and they deliver something something and they deliver something new. And you need basically three new. And you need basically three new. And you need basically three components to deliver any service, any components to deliver any service, any components to deliver any service, any promise, or any product. You're going to promise, or any product. You're going to promise, or any product. You're going to need to understand identity. need to understand identity. need to understand identity. You're going to need to understand You're going to need to understand You're going to need to understand value. value. value. And you need to understand the And you need to understand the And you need to understand the intelligence that goes into it. And intelligence that goes into it. And intelligence that goes into it. And right now, we're in the early innings right now, we're in the early innings right now, we're in the early innings where we're starting to see first is the where we're starting to see first is the where we're starting to see first is the frontier labs being the token factories. frontier labs being the token factories. frontier labs being the token factories. They're taking all information from the They're taking all information from the They're taking all information from the web, from videos, from the world, and web, from videos, from the world, and web, from videos, from the world, and they're finding a way to ingest it and they're finding a way to ingest it and they're finding a way to ingest it and create a different set of tokens that create a different set of tokens that create a different set of tokens that somebody else can consume. So, they are somebody else can consume. So, they are somebody else can consume. So, they are the raw materials providers to these the raw materials providers to these the raw materials providers to these factories. Now, in the next few years, factories. Now, in the next few years, factories. Now, in the next few years, we're going to see that evolution go we're going to see that evolution go we're going to see that evolution go deeper and deeper and deeper, and it deeper and deeper and deeper, and it deeper and deeper and deeper, and it will be much more personalized and it will be much more personalized and it will be much more personalized and it will be much more complete to verticals will be much more complete to verticals will be much more complete to verticals that we haven't even touched. Like that we haven't even touched. Like that we haven't even touched. Like today, today, today, token factory has untouched money that token factory has untouched money that token factory has untouched money that much. much. much. Money has been outside of AI and we're Money has been outside of AI and we're Money has been outside of AI and we're on year four or five. It's funny because on year four or five. It's funny because on year four or five. It's funny because money is supposed to be one of the first money is supposed to be one of the first money is supposed to be one of the first most fungible things that should be most fungible things that should be most fungible things that should be playing the game and it's not. playing the game and it's not. playing the game and it's not. >> Why do you think it should be one of the >> Why do you think it should be one of the >> Why do you think it should be one of the the first things that play in the game? the first things that play in the game? the first things that play in the game? >> Because it it's it's one of the things >> Because it it's it's one of the things >> Because it it's it's one of the things that flows the most in the world. that flows the most in the world. that flows the most in the world. Everything flows to money. Like my my my Everything flows to money. Like my my my Everything flows to money. Like my my my whole life the thing about what keeps my whole life the thing about what keeps my whole life the thing about what keeps my learning going is I follow flows. I learning going is I follow flows. I learning going is I follow flows. I believe that nothing static, right? believe that nothing static, right? believe that nothing static, right? Money is never static. Money is like Money is never static. Money is like Money is never static. Money is like gravity. It always falls it always gravity. It always falls it always gravity. It always falls it always moves. It always always going somewhere. moves. It always always going somewhere. moves. It always always going somewhere. It's like water. It's it's never stuck. It's like water. It's it's never stuck. It's like water. It's it's never stuck. Energy Energy Energy is flowing everywhere. is flowing everywhere. is flowing everywhere. From the lights that we're in here, but From the lights that we're in here, but From the lights that we're in here, but also our own energies. Right now we're also our own energies. Right now we're also our own energies. Right now we're creating all energies and we're we're creating all energies and we're we're creating all energies and we're we're sharing that energy. sharing that energy. sharing that energy. And And so I find that And And so I find that And And so I find that um um um for something that is as for something that is as for something that is as as dynamic as money, it is not attached as dynamic as money, it is not attached as dynamic as money, it is not attached to AI yet on anything. to AI yet on anything. to AI yet on anything. >> So, how does it get attached? >> So, how does it get attached? >> So, how does it get attached? >> I think it's going to be that >> I think it's going to be that >> I think it's going to be that intersection between probably what intersection between probably what intersection between probably what blockchains will do and AI will do blockchains will do and AI will do blockchains will do and AI will do because you will need to have because you will need to have because you will need to have intelligent smart contracts that will do intelligent smart contracts that will do intelligent smart contracts that will do stuff on your behalf. And you can start stuff on your behalf. And you can start stuff on your behalf. And you can start to see great entrepreneurs and great to see great entrepreneurs and great to see great entrepreneurs and great founders working on it. You can we can founders working on it. You can we can founders working on it. You can we can talk about Patrick at Stripe and and how talk about Patrick at Stripe and and how talk about Patrick at Stripe and and how they're building all this. they're building all this. they're building all this. >> The literally when you were saying that, >> The literally when you were saying that, >> The literally when you were saying that, I just heard John Collison talked about I just heard John Collison talked about I just heard John Collison talked about this and basically he said that that's this and basically he said that that's this and basically he said that that's the only thing he's working on. It's the only thing he's working on. It's the only thing he's working on. It's like a gen tech payments for agents. like a gen tech payments for agents. like a gen tech payments for agents. >> Yeah. And And that's the future and you >> Yeah. And And that's the future and you >> Yeah. And And that's the future and you can talk to anybody in that space or can talk to anybody in that space or can talk to anybody in that space or Vlad at Robinhood doing the same for for Vlad at Robinhood doing the same for for Vlad at Robinhood doing the same for for equities and you can see how they're equities and you can see how they're equities and you can see how they're tokenizing assets and we're in the early tokenizing assets and we're in the early tokenizing assets and we're in the early innings, but we're behind compared to innings, but we're behind compared to innings, but we're behind compared to knowledge. Knowledge went much faster. knowledge. Knowledge went much faster. knowledge. Knowledge went much faster. Money's it's behind. Which is fine. Money's it's behind. Which is fine. Money's it's behind. Which is fine. >> So, explain cuz I don't know anything >> So, explain cuz I don't know anything >> So, explain cuz I don't know anything about this and you you study this night about this and you you study this night about this and you you study this night and day. So, explain what you think is and day. So, explain what you think is and day. So, explain what you think is going to happen with this and like the going to happen with this and like the going to happen with this and like the next like year or two. next like year or two. next like year or two. >> I don't know the next year or two. >> I don't know the next year or two. >> I don't know the next year or two. It's hard to know because with the speed It's hard to know because with the speed It's hard to know because with the speed of AI, what happens in the next 12 of AI, what happens in the next 12 of AI, what happens in the next 12 months? months? months? >> Or yeah, next few months, whatever. >> Or yeah, next few months, whatever. >> Or yeah, next few months, whatever. >> But what what I will say is that what we >> But what what I will say is that what we >> But what what I will say is that what we should start seeing very soon is agents should start seeing very soon is agents should start seeing very soon is agents that are designed for specific functions that are designed for specific functions that are designed for specific functions that will take care of your financial that will take care of your financial that will take care of your financial life in ways that you have never been life in ways that you have never been life in ways that you have never been taken care of. taken care of. taken care of. And some of the best founders have And some of the best founders have And some of the best founders have articulated this really well. David from articulated this really well. David from articulated this really well. David from Nubank, David Velez said, you know, Nubank, David Velez said, you know, Nubank, David Velez said, you know, mobile was the way to put a bank in your mobile was the way to put a bank in your mobile was the way to put a bank in your pocket. pocket. pocket. Uh Uh Uh now AI is going to be the way to get you now AI is going to be the way to get you now AI is going to be the way to get you the banker the banker the banker in your pocket. So, what I expect to see in your pocket. So, what I expect to see in your pocket. So, what I expect to see very very soon is an AI agent that can very very soon is an AI agent that can very very soon is an AI agent that can go and do all kinds of go and do all kinds of go and do all kinds of investment decisions recommendations. He investment decisions recommendations. He investment decisions recommendations. He can go do all kinds of commerce can go do all kinds of commerce can go do all kinds of commerce decisions and recommendations and he can decisions and recommendations and he can decisions and recommendations and he can serve to do any kind of payment serve to do any kind of payment serve to do any kind of payment decisions and recommendations on your decisions and recommendations on your decisions and recommendations on your behalf. And you are going to start to behalf. And you are going to start to behalf. And you are going to start to see how that's going to free time and see how that's going to free time and see how that's going to free time and ideas that you don't have today. ideas that you don't have today. ideas that you don't have today. We're just starting. The signals that We're just starting. The signals that We're just starting. The signals that this is going the right way this is going the right way this is going the right way signals, prediction markets. signals, prediction markets. signals, prediction markets. Prediction markets, it's it's an Prediction markets, it's it's an Prediction markets, it's it's an interesting market. People are calling interesting market. People are calling interesting market. People are calling Some people call it the gambling. Some Some people call it the gambling. Some Some people call it the gambling. Some people call it a place where you can bet people call it a place where you can bet people call it a place where you can bet on anything 24/7. But here's the thing, on anything 24/7. But here's the thing, on anything 24/7. But here's the thing, it's 24/7. it's 24/7. it's 24/7. And what agents need is a 24/7 rails. And what agents need is a 24/7 rails. And what agents need is a 24/7 rails. So, all of this is building the rails to So, all of this is building the rails to So, all of this is building the rails to allow all of this to happen. allow all of this to happen. allow all of this to happen. And what we expect is that And what we expect is that And what we expect is that we're going to see a bunch of new we're going to see a bunch of new we're going to see a bunch of new companies or incumbents that are going companies or incumbents that are going companies or incumbents that are going to be shipping these features in ways to be shipping these features in ways to be shipping these features in ways that we have not experienced before. that we have not experienced before. that we have not experienced before. >> That was going to be my next question to >> That was going to be my next question to >> That was going to be my next question to you. Who do you think actually wins you. Who do you think actually wins you. Who do you think actually wins this? Cuz you just named, you know, this? Cuz you just named, you know, this? Cuz you just named, you know, three pretty big, well-established three pretty big, well-established three pretty big, well-established companies. You have Stripe, Robinhood, companies. You have Stripe, Robinhood, companies. You have Stripe, Robinhood, Nubank. You think it comes from them or Nubank. You think it comes from them or Nubank. You think it comes from them or you think it comes from a startup? you think it comes from a startup? you think it comes from a startup? >> I think it comes from them. >> I think it comes from them. >> I think it comes from them. Uh Uh, because first, they're still Uh Uh, because first, they're still Uh Uh, because first, they're still founder-led or Revolut also, they're founder-led or Revolut also, they're founder-led or Revolut also, they're still founder-led. Those founders are still founder-led. Those founders are still founder-led. Those founders are pushing the boundaries of all of this. pushing the boundaries of all of this. pushing the boundaries of all of this. They are at an age and they are at a They are at an age and they are at a They are at an age and they are at a place and if you talk to them, they're place and if you talk to them, they're place and if you talk to them, they're still as hungry as they were on day one. still as hungry as they were on day one. still as hungry as they were on day one. They're still in that day one mentality They're still in that day one mentality They're still in that day one mentality and they're just going faster than the and they're just going faster than the and they're just going faster than the incumbents. For a while, I thought the incumbents. For a while, I thought the incumbents. For a while, I thought the incumbents were going to catch up. In incumbents were going to catch up. In incumbents were going to catch up. In 2021, 22, 23, I thought they were 2021, 22, 23, I thought they were 2021, 22, 23, I thought they were fair enough. There was not much fair enough. There was not much fair enough. There was not much difference between a financial product difference between a financial product difference between a financial product offer from an incumbent and from a one offer from an incumbent and from a one offer from an incumbent and from a one of these neo brands. That's different of these neo brands. That's different of these neo brands. That's different today. Uh, again, AI has just become a today. Uh, again, AI has just become a today. Uh, again, AI has just become a rocket, uh, nitro rocket for the for rocket, uh, nitro rocket for the for rocket, uh, nitro rocket for the for this breed of technology companies to this breed of technology companies to this breed of technology companies to just accelerate even faster and separate just accelerate even faster and separate just accelerate even faster and separate themselves again, which is a beauty of themselves again, which is a beauty of themselves again, which is a beauty of the infinite game. the infinite game. the infinite game. In the beauty of the infinite game, In the beauty of the infinite game, In the beauty of the infinite game, you never get to win and you never get you never get to win and you never get you never get to win and you never get to lose. You're simply ahead or behind. to lose. You're simply ahead or behind. to lose. You're simply ahead or behind. And they were ahead for a long, long And they were ahead for a long, long And they were ahead for a long, long time and then they were the other ones time and then they were the other ones time and then they were the other ones were catching up, but the rules changed. were catching up, but the rules changed. were catching up, but the rules changed. What happens? What happens? What happens? You're ahead again or you and the other You're ahead again or you and the other You're ahead again or you and the other ones fall behind, but the the game never ones fall behind, but the the game never ones fall behind, but the the game never ends. That's the way I live my life. ends. That's the way I live my life. ends. That's the way I live my life. That's the way I think about everything That's the way I think about everything That's the way I think about everything I do. That's the way I make decisions. I I do. That's the way I make decisions. I I do. That's the way I make decisions. I don't think about winning or losing don't think about winning or losing don't think about winning or losing ever, ever, ever, uh, on anything I do. I just think about uh, on anything I do. I just think about uh, on anything I do. I just think about will this put me ahead or put me behind will this put me ahead or put me behind will this put me ahead or put me behind in the game and then just keep playing in the game and then just keep playing in the game and then just keep playing the game. the game. the game. >> So, I know you you play the infinite >> So, I know you you play the infinite >> So, I know you you play the infinite game. You want to play forever, but are game. You want to play forever, but are game. You want to play forever, but are you do you consider yourself a you do you consider yourself a you do you consider yourself a competitive person though? competitive person though? competitive person though? >> Define com- competitor. >> Define com- competitor. >> Define com- competitor. >> I guess the way I think about it >> I guess the way I think about it >> I guess the way I think about it is just like I'm in a very positive some is just like I'm in a very positive some is just like I'm in a very positive some industry. If you listen to my podcast industry. If you listen to my podcast industry. If you listen to my podcast today and another podcast tomorrow, I today and another podcast tomorrow, I today and another podcast tomorrow, I don't lose on that, but I still wake up don't lose on that, but I still wake up don't lose on that, but I still wake up every day trying to like do the best job every day trying to like do the best job every day trying to like do the best job I possibly can. I possibly can. I possibly can. >> Yes. So, if that's a competitor, yes. I >> Yes. So, if that's a competitor, yes. I >> Yes. So, if that's a competitor, yes. I try to do the best I can. try to do the best I can. try to do the best I can. >> not relative to other people. >> not relative to other people. >> not relative to other people. >> No. I don't look at other people. I >> No. I don't look at other people. I >> No. I don't look at other people. I don't I Each one is playing their own don't I Each one is playing their own don't I Each one is playing their own game. I have I try really hard to not game. I have I try really hard to not game. I have I try really hard to not have fear of missing out. I try really have fear of missing out. I try really have fear of missing out. I try really hard to just make sure that I'm playing hard to just make sure that I'm playing hard to just make sure that I'm playing the best game I can to play this game the best game I can to play this game the best game I can to play this game until the last day I I am alive. until the last day I I am alive. until the last day I I am alive. Doesn't matter if I win or lose because Doesn't matter if I win or lose because Doesn't matter if I win or lose because you will that's not the game. You won't you will that's not the game. You won't you will that's not the game. You won't You fall behind. Actually, I will tell You fall behind. Actually, I will tell You fall behind. Actually, I will tell you that I've learned about myself, I you that I've learned about myself, I you that I've learned about myself, I rather be behind. rather be behind. rather be behind. I'm a much better person being behind or I'm a much better person being behind or I'm a much better person being behind or when I'm ahead. When I'm ahead, it means when I'm ahead. When I'm ahead, it means when I'm ahead. When I'm ahead, it means oh, you guys are doing well. This is oh, you guys are doing well. This is oh, you guys are doing well. This is going right direction. You were right. going right direction. You were right. going right direction. You were right. This happened with this This played out. This happened with this This played out. This happened with this This played out. And immediately immediately my spider And immediately immediately my spider And immediately immediately my spider senses get all activated and say, "Okay, senses get all activated and say, "Okay, senses get all activated and say, "Okay, that means that whatever the I got to that means that whatever the I got to that means that whatever the I got to change the rules because it's not good change the rules because it's not good change the rules because it's not good to be ahead. You want to be ahead for a to be ahead. You want to be ahead for a to be ahead. You want to be ahead for a while, but you want the rules to change while, but you want the rules to change while, but you want the rules to change to fall behind so you can innovate to fall behind so you can innovate to fall behind so you can innovate again." again." again." >> Yeah, this is why I said that you did so >> Yeah, this is why I said that you did so >> Yeah, this is why I said that you did so many times when we're talking like god many times when we're talking like god many times when we're talking like god damn it, Mickey sounds just like the damn it, Mickey sounds just like the damn it, Mickey sounds just like the people I read books about. Uh I just met people I read books about. Uh I just met people I read books about. Uh I just met James Dyson who was like a personal hero James Dyson who was like a personal hero James Dyson who was like a personal hero of mine. And he said the exact same of mine. And he said the exact same of mine. And he said the exact same thing on his podcast. He's just like thing on his podcast. He's just like thing on his podcast. He's just like losing is so much more interesting. He's losing is so much more interesting. He's losing is so much more interesting. He's like you just learn so much. He likes like you just learn so much. He likes like you just learn so much. He likes being behind. being behind. being behind. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, he just has that chip on his >> Yeah, he just has that chip on his >> Yeah, he just has that chip on his shoulder. Well, really just desire to shoulder. Well, really just desire to shoulder. Well, really just desire to constantly improve. He just feels you're constantly improve. He just feels you're constantly improve. He just feels you're going to improve a lot more when you're going to improve a lot more when you're going to improve a lot more when you're like losing or you're behind. like losing or you're behind. like losing or you're behind. >> 100%. I'm much better when I'm behind. I >> 100%. I'm much better when I'm behind. I >> 100%. I'm much better when I'm behind. I learn more. I'm I learn more. I'm I learn more. I'm I everything everything about it is just everything everything about it is just everything everything about it is just gives you much more energy. gives you much more energy. gives you much more energy. >> I want to go back cuz I interrupted you. >> I want to go back cuz I interrupted you. >> I want to go back cuz I interrupted you. I want to go back to the your idea of I want to go back to the your idea of I want to go back to the your idea of like every company is becoming a token like every company is becoming a token like every company is becoming a token factory. The only token factories that factory. The only token factories that factory. The only token factories that you see right now are the the labs? you see right now are the the labs? you see right now are the the labs? >> No, so you're starting to see >> No, so you're starting to see >> No, so you're starting to see application layers that are starting to application layers that are starting to application layers that are starting to show up that are building token show up that are building token show up that are building token factories. Think about factories. Think about factories. Think about on the voice AI. Think about Eleven Labs on the voice AI. Think about Eleven Labs on the voice AI. Think about Eleven Labs or Decagon or Sierra. They're all or Decagon or Sierra. They're all or Decagon or Sierra. They're all companies that are companies that are companies that are understanding how to how to They're understanding how to how to They're understanding how to how to They're creating their token factories. They're creating their token factories. They're creating their token factories. They're creating a service that did not exist creating a service that did not exist creating a service that did not exist before in a way that was not possible. before in a way that was not possible. before in a way that was not possible. We're going to a world where every We're going to a world where every We're going to a world where every single piece of information needs to be single piece of information needs to be single piece of information needs to be read over by a machine. read over by a machine. read over by a machine. And that's how the world will go to the And that's how the world will go to the And that's how the world will go to the next generation. next generation. next generation. >> So, you finish writing the letter. What >> So, you finish writing the letter. What >> So, you finish writing the letter. What do you do next? do you do next? do you do next? >> We share with our um >> We share with our um >> We share with our um founders, people that we work with founders, people that we work with founders, people that we work with closely, and we allow them to closely, and we allow them to closely, and we allow them to uh and our LPs, our investors. Why? uh and our LPs, our investors. Why? uh and our LPs, our investors. Why? Because we want them to hold us Because we want them to hold us Because we want them to hold us accountable. accountable. accountable. This is this is our thinking. You have a This is this is our thinking. You have a This is this is our thinking. You have a You have a chance, you can walk out, or You have a chance, you can walk out, or You have a chance, you can walk out, or you can keep believing in our in our in you can keep believing in our in our in you can keep believing in our in our in our thesis. So, we we we we put it out our thesis. So, we we we we put it out our thesis. So, we we we we put it out there, there, there, and then we we go out, and then we we go out, and then we we go out, and we start talking about it with the and we start talking about it with the and we start talking about it with the founders that we founders that we founders that we met while we wrote it. met while we wrote it. met while we wrote it. And what happens And what happens And what happens >> you've not yet invested in? >> you've not yet invested in? >> you've not yet invested in? >> Most of them are founders that we have >> Most of them are founders that we have >> Most of them are founders that we have not yet invested in. Because as we write not yet invested in. Because as we write not yet invested in. Because as we write a thesis, we have not invested into them a thesis, we have not invested into them a thesis, we have not invested into them yet. We're learning from them. Maybe yet. We're learning from them. Maybe yet. We're learning from them. Maybe along the way we make an investment or along the way we make an investment or along the way we make an investment or two, maybe. two, maybe. two, maybe. But most of the time we don't, and then But most of the time we don't, and then But most of the time we don't, and then after that and what happens is after that and what happens is after that and what happens is some of the best founders will read it some of the best founders will read it some of the best founders will read it and said, and said, and said, "Oh, wow. "Oh, wow. "Oh, wow. You guys really understand it. You guys really understand it. You guys really understand it. This is deep. This is deep. This is deep. Let's talk about it." And that's how we Let's talk about it." And that's how we Let's talk about it." And that's how we build those relationships that take a build those relationships that take a build those relationships that take a long time to build. long time to build. long time to build. >> So, I know you spend a lot of time with >> So, I know you spend a lot of time with >> So, I know you spend a lot of time with people in their early 20s. Do you feel people in their early 20s. Do you feel people in their early 20s. Do you feel that this is the way they're talking that this is the way they're talking that this is the way they're talking they're thinking in about building they're thinking in about building they're thinking in about building companies? companies? companies? >> Good question. I think some of them are. >> Good question. I think some of them are. >> Good question. I think some of them are. I think some of some others are not, I think some of some others are not, I think some of some others are not, like any other generation. What I What I like any other generation. What I What I like any other generation. What I What I believe the people in their 20s have believe the people in their 20s have believe the people in their 20s have right now is that they are the right now is that they are the right now is that they are the smartest, smartest, smartest, fastest learner generation we've ever fastest learner generation we've ever fastest learner generation we've ever had in history. had in history. had in history. They learn the fastest. They learn the fastest. They learn the fastest. And it's because they get used to listen And it's because they get used to listen And it's because they get used to listen to podcasts at to podcasts at to podcasts at 1 and 1/2 2x. They 1 and 1/2 2x. They 1 and 1/2 2x. They They don't have to wait for the mail to They don't have to wait for the mail to They don't have to wait for the mail to arrive with the annual letter a month arrive with the annual letter a month arrive with the annual letter a month later, they can read it in real time, later, they can read it in real time, later, they can read it in real time, right? So, their ability to process right? So, their ability to process right? So, their ability to process information is so much faster than our information is so much faster than our information is so much faster than our brains ever had been trained for. So, brains ever had been trained for. So, brains ever had been trained for. So, you can see it in the way they can you can see it in the way they can you can see it in the way they can process. process. process. What I think the best ones can do also What I think the best ones can do also What I think the best ones can do also is that they can articulate is that they can articulate is that they can articulate a vision and a story and and bring a vision and a story and and bring a vision and a story and and bring people to follow them, but not all of people to follow them, but not all of people to follow them, but not all of them have those skills yet. them have those skills yet. them have those skills yet. They haven't developed them. Because They haven't developed them. Because They haven't developed them. Because that generation, as much as they're that generation, as much as they're that generation, as much as they're super smart learning, they're also were super smart learning, they're also were super smart learning, they're also were not trained to be great communicators on not trained to be great communicators on not trained to be great communicators on the other side. So, the few that are the other side. So, the few that are the other side. So, the few that are great communicators, I think they have great communicators, I think they have great communicators, I think they have it in embedded in them. it in embedded in them. it in embedded in them. >> How do you think they view >> How do you think they view >> How do you think they view company building differently than company building differently than company building differently than somebody that's say 10 years older than somebody that's say 10 years older than somebody that's say 10 years older than them? them? them? >> I think they look at all charts very >> I think they look at all charts very >> I think they look at all charts very differently. differently. differently. I think they look at functions very I think they look at functions very I think they look at functions very differently. They don't think the the differently. They don't think the the differently. They don't think the the all chart structure that we inherited all chart structure that we inherited all chart structure that we inherited and that we grew up with, and that we grew up with, and that we grew up with, I don't think it applies anymore. I don't think it applies anymore. I don't think it applies anymore. In the same way they did. Humans are key In the same way they did. Humans are key In the same way they did. Humans are key center and they will be for as long as center and they will be for as long as center and they will be for as long as we're alive in in in our genera- in our we're alive in in in our genera- in our we're alive in in in our genera- in our lifetime. lifetime. lifetime. But, all charts and the way they But, all charts and the way they But, all charts and the way they organize people organize people organize people completely different and you can see it. completely different and you can see it. completely different and you can see it. They are self-organizing and I I I love They are self-organizing and I I I love They are self-organizing and I I I love starting this because one of my mentors starting this because one of my mentors starting this because one of my mentors is Dee Hock, the founder of Visa, and I is Dee Hock, the founder of Visa, and I is Dee Hock, the founder of Visa, and I spent with him spent with him spent with him almost almost almost 10 or 12 years 10 or 12 years 10 or 12 years visiting him and and talking to him. And visiting him and and talking to him. And visiting him and and talking to him. And he's he's he's he's the creator of the chaotic he's the creator of the chaotic he's the creator of the chaotic organization. He is the believer that organization. He is the believer that organization. He is the believer that you should never organize the best you should never organize the best you should never organize the best expression of humans are in the expression of humans are in the expression of humans are in the intersection between chaos and order. If intersection between chaos and order. If intersection between chaos and order. If you're too orderly, you don't innovate. you're too orderly, you don't innovate. you're too orderly, you don't innovate. If you're too chaotic, you don't If you're too chaotic, you don't If you're too chaotic, you don't communicate and you break. So, chaotic communicate and you break. So, chaotic communicate and you break. So, chaotic is the right place to be. is the right place to be. is the right place to be. They are actually doing this kids are They are actually doing this kids are They are actually doing this kids are doing a great job by pure nature of how doing a great job by pure nature of how doing a great job by pure nature of how they've were trained and wired they've were trained and wired they've were trained and wired with this era of technology to be in the with this era of technology to be in the with this era of technology to be in the epicenter of chaotic. epicenter of chaotic. epicenter of chaotic. So, that's how they're working and So, that's how they're working and So, that's how they're working and that's what's different about them. that's what's different about them. that's what's different about them. >> What else did you learn from Dee? Um, >> What else did you learn from Dee? Um, >> What else did you learn from Dee? Um, the fascinating a couple people have the fascinating a couple people have the fascinating a couple people have asked me before cuz I've done like two asked me before cuz I've done like two asked me before cuz I've done like two or three episodes on Dee Hock. He wrote or three episodes on Dee Hock. He wrote or three episodes on Dee Hock. He wrote this this great autobiography, which is this this great autobiography, which is this this great autobiography, which is you know, tells the story of Visa. But, you know, tells the story of Visa. But, you know, tells the story of Visa. But, then when he was a much older man, he then when he was a much older man, he then when he was a much older man, he also has these two books of maxims also has these two books of maxims also has these two books of maxims called the autobiography of a restless called the autobiography of a restless called the autobiography of a restless mind volume one and volume two. mind volume one and volume two. mind volume one and volume two. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Again, somebody can compress the >> Again, somebody can compress the >> Again, somebody can compress the language and and give you a lot of ideas language and and give you a lot of ideas language and and give you a lot of ideas in like, you know, a sentence or two. A in like, you know, a sentence or two. A in like, you know, a sentence or two. A lot of people have asked me it's like, lot of people have asked me it's like, lot of people have asked me it's like, why do you think you know, Visa is one why do you think you know, Visa is one why do you think you know, Visa is one of the most successful companies of all of the most successful companies of all of the most successful companies of all time? They're one of the most profitable time? They're one of the most profitable time? They're one of the most profitable per employee companies in history. And per employee companies in history. And per employee companies in history. And yet, not a lot of people talk about it. yet, not a lot of people talk about it. yet, not a lot of people talk about it. And somebody asked me one time, And somebody asked me one time, And somebody asked me one time, or a few people have actually asked me or a few people have actually asked me or a few people have actually asked me this, like, why do you think that is? this, like, why do you think that is? this, like, why do you think that is? It's like, cuz it's still very confusing It's like, cuz it's still very confusing It's like, cuz it's still very confusing on how he actually built it. I've read on how he actually built it. I've read on how he actually built it. I've read his book two times and I still don't his book two times and I still don't his book two times and I still don't really understand. So, like, what else really understand. So, like, what else really understand. So, like, what else do you think you learned from D. Hawk? do you think you learned from D. Hawk? do you think you learned from D. Hawk? Did he influence the way you built Did he influence the way you built Did he influence the way you built Ribbit at all? Ribbit at all? Ribbit at all? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Okay, I want to hear >> Okay, I want to hear >> Okay, I want to hear >> And not only Ribbit, my my my previous >> And not only Ribbit, my my my previous >> And not only Ribbit, my my my previous startups, too. startups, too. startups, too. Because he he Because he he Because he he he told me so much about he told me so much about he told me so much about how to how to get people to be the best how to how to get people to be the best how to how to get people to be the best version of themselves in in the kind of version of themselves in in the kind of version of themselves in in the kind of organizations that you have to have. organizations that you have to have. organizations that you have to have. Even my go-to question Even my go-to question Even my go-to question on interviews is a question he taught me on interviews is a question he taught me on interviews is a question he taught me on on how to ask. So, I've learned so on on how to ask. So, I've learned so on on how to ask. So, I've learned so much from him. much from him. much from him. >> What is that question? >> What is that question? >> What is that question? >> I give people six words and I tell them >> I give people six words and I tell them >> I give people six words and I tell them to organize them in a certain order. And to organize them in a certain order. And to organize them in a certain order. And and then the way they walk through that and then the way they walk through that and then the way they walk through that order says a lot about about the person. order says a lot about about the person. order says a lot about about the person. And it was a letter that D wrote to his And it was a letter that D wrote to his And it was a letter that D wrote to his team in 1972, I think, where he team in 1972, I think, where he team in 1972, I think, where he articulates all of this. So, I I learned articulates all of this. So, I I learned articulates all of this. So, I I learned that from him. So, spending time with D, that from him. So, spending time with D, that from him. So, spending time with D, what what you get is that he understood what what you get is that he understood what what you get is that he understood human psychology better than anybody in human psychology better than anybody in human psychology better than anybody in that era in that particular space. that era in that particular space. that era in that particular space. He understood that to get bankers who, He understood that to get bankers who, He understood that to get bankers who, by their sheer DNA, are people that are by their sheer DNA, are people that are by their sheer DNA, are people that are tend to be risk adverse tend to be risk adverse tend to be risk adverse and people that care too much about and people that care too much about and people that care too much about their reputation, he found a way through their reputation, he found a way through their reputation, he found a way through this model of association. His biggest this model of association. His biggest this model of association. His biggest success was the legal model he used. success was the legal model he used. success was the legal model he used. No one had ever done a company in that No one had ever done a company in that No one had ever done a company in that structure. An association model allow structure. An association model allow structure. An association model allow everybody to save face, but at the same everybody to save face, but at the same everybody to save face, but at the same time take the credit. time take the credit. time take the credit. And that's how he won. And that's how he won. And that's how he won. Because it doesn't matter who you were, Because it doesn't matter who you were, Because it doesn't matter who you were, which bank competed with the other one, which bank competed with the other one, which bank competed with the other one, it didn't even care because each one can it didn't even care because each one can it didn't even care because each one can compete by themselves while at the same compete by themselves while at the same compete by themselves while at the same time winning the brand one. time winning the brand one. time winning the brand one. That was the beauty of the when you That was the beauty of the when you That was the beauty of the when you spend time with him, he would say, "It spend time with him, he would say, "It spend time with him, he would say, "It was the model and people don't get it." was the model and people don't get it." was the model and people don't get it." So, I I find that his res- So, I I find that his res- So, I I find that his res- restless mind was alive even in his restless mind was alive even in his restless mind was alive even in his early 90s because early 90s because early 90s because I would have sworn that he could have I would have sworn that he could have I would have sworn that he could have been Sat- Satoshi Nakamoto if he had if been Sat- Satoshi Nakamoto if he had if been Sat- Satoshi Nakamoto if he had if he been 40 years younger. he been 40 years younger. he been 40 years younger. He had explained to me blockchain and He had explained to me blockchain and He had explained to me blockchain and what for him Visa was a failure if you what for him Visa was a failure if you what for him Visa was a failure if you if you if you if you talk to him because he only got to talk to him because he only got to talk to him because he only got to release release release the simple version of it, which was the simple version of it, which was the simple version of it, which was payments. He wanted to do a lot more payments. He wanted to do a lot more payments. He wanted to do a lot more which looked a lot like blockchains and which looked a lot like blockchains and which looked a lot like blockchains and and smart contracts are today. and smart contracts are today. and smart contracts are today. But, he was probably 60 years ahead of But, he was probably 60 years ahead of But, he was probably 60 years ahead of his time. his time. his time. >> Deel is how the best founders turn the >> Deel is how the best founders turn the >> Deel is how the best founders turn the world into their talent pool. I've been world into their talent pool. I've been world into their talent pool. I've been studying how history's greatest founders studying how history's greatest founders studying how history's greatest founders operate for a decade [music] and one operate for a decade [music] and one operate for a decade [music] and one thing they all have in common is they thing they all have in common is they thing they all have in common is they understand that recruiting and hiring understand that recruiting and hiring understand that recruiting and hiring the very best talent is your most the very best talent is your most the very best talent is your most [music] important priority. A players [music] important priority. A players [music] important priority. A players recognize other A players, which is why recognize other A players, which is why recognize other A players, which is why top companies like Ramp, Shopify, top companies like Ramp, Shopify, top companies like Ramp, Shopify, 11Labs, Uber, and DoorDash all use Deel. 11Labs, Uber, and DoorDash all use Deel. 11Labs, Uber, and DoorDash all use Deel. Many of the top founders I know have Many of the top founders I know have Many of the top founders I know have personally invested in [music] Deel personally invested in [music] Deel personally invested in [music] Deel after using the product and what they after using the product and what they after using the product and what they discovered is that Deel is the best discovered is that Deel is the best discovered is that Deel is the best company in the world at building company in the world at building company in the world at building infrastructure for global hiring. Deel infrastructure for global hiring. Deel infrastructure for global hiring. Deel will help your business hire, pay, and will help your business hire, pay, and will help your business hire, pay, and manage any worker [music] anywhere in manage any worker [music] anywhere in manage any worker [music] anywhere in the world so you can retain the best the world so you can retain the best the world so you can retain the best talent anywhere and spend the rest of talent anywhere and spend the rest of talent anywhere and spend the rest of your time focusing [music] on what you your time focusing [music] on what you your time focusing [music] on what you do best, delivering value to your do best, delivering value to your do best, delivering value to your customers. The founder of 11Labs has a customers. The founder of 11Labs has a customers. The founder of 11Labs has a great description of the value Deel can great description of the value Deel can great description of the value Deel can give your company. He said, "We built give your company. He said, "We built give your company. He said, "We built 11Labs to break down language and 11Labs to break down language and 11Labs to break down language and communication [music] barriers. With communication [music] barriers. With communication [music] barriers. With Deel enabling us to hire and support Deel enabling us to hire and support Deel enabling us to hire and support exceptional talent anywhere, we can exceptional talent anywhere, we can exceptional talent anywhere, we can accelerate [music] our innovation and accelerate [music] our innovation and accelerate [music] our innovation and bring more voices, stories, and ideas to bring more voices, stories, and ideas to bring more voices, stories, and ideas to every corner of the world." Deel is every corner of the world." Deel is every corner of the world." Deel is trusted by over 40,000 businesses. Learn trusted by over 40,000 businesses. Learn trusted by over 40,000 businesses. Learn how they can help your business [music] how they can help your business [music] how they can help your business [music] today by going to deel.com/centra. today by going to deel.com/centra. today by going to deel.com/centra. That is deel.com/centra. >> Let's go back to um the young kids they >> Let's go back to um the young kids they spend time with and the way they think spend time with and the way they think spend time with and the way they think about company building compared to some about company building compared to some about company building compared to some of your older founders. of your older founders. of your older founders. >> From what sense? >> From what sense? >> From what sense? >> I think the founders are moving forward >> I think the founders are moving forward >> I think the founders are moving forward like obviously going to be way more like obviously going to be way more like obviously going to be way more capital efficient. capital efficient. capital efficient. Uh I think they're going to own lar- Uh I think they're going to own lar- Uh I think they're going to own lar- larger percentages of their companies larger percentages of their companies larger percentages of their companies because they're going to need to to because they're going to need to to because they're going to need to to um to raise less money. I think you used um to raise less money. I think you used um to raise less money. I think you used the analogy of one time if you go back the analogy of one time if you go back the analogy of one time if you go back and look at like some of the robber and look at like some of the robber and look at like some of the robber barons who like Henry Ford owned 100% of barons who like Henry Ford owned 100% of barons who like Henry Ford owned 100% of his company. And some of them would go his company. And some of them would go his company. And some of them would go public and they own 70 or 80% of the public and they own 70 or 80% of the public and they own 70 or 80% of the company. Yeah, I'm just very curious company. Yeah, I'm just very curious company. Yeah, I'm just very curious like like like how you think they're going to be how you think they're going to be how you think they're going to be building companies. Again, a 21 or building companies. Again, a 21 or building companies. Again, a 21 or 22-year-old compared to even like a 22-year-old compared to even like a 22-year-old compared to even like a 35-year-old. 35-year-old. 35-year-old. >> So, the the first thing about these >> So, the the first thing about these >> So, the the first thing about these generations uh generations uh generations uh they understand that if they play by the they understand that if they play by the they understand that if they play by the rules of the game, they will not win. rules of the game, they will not win. rules of the game, they will not win. The rules [snorts] of society right now. The rules [snorts] of society right now. The rules [snorts] of society right now. They will be stuck in student debt. They They will be stuck in student debt. They They will be stuck in student debt. They will be stuck in up in a bunch of will be stuck in up in a bunch of will be stuck in up in a bunch of problems that problems that problems that they've been watching this through they've been watching this through they've been watching this through YouTube. They've been reading about it YouTube. They've been reading about it YouTube. They've been reading about it on on social media. They've been seeing on on social media. They've been seeing on on social media. They've been seeing that we have spawned an era of that we have spawned an era of that we have spawned an era of of Elon's of innovation of Edison people of Elon's of innovation of Edison people of Elon's of innovation of Edison people mindsets that are it's allowing the mind mindsets that are it's allowing the mind mindsets that are it's allowing the mind to really flow. to really flow. to really flow. And And And surprisingly, capital is right now surprisingly, capital is right now surprisingly, capital is right now historically levels of almost unlimited historically levels of almost unlimited historically levels of almost unlimited capital access. capital access. capital access. Especially if you're younger, there's Especially if you're younger, there's Especially if you're younger, there's even more capital than before. even more capital than before. even more capital than before. It's a perfect scenario for this It's a perfect scenario for this It's a perfect scenario for this generation to really create generation to really create generation to really create and take risks in ways that that you and take risks in ways that that you and take risks in ways that that you cannot imagine. Funny enough, when you cannot imagine. Funny enough, when you cannot imagine. Funny enough, when you talk to them the most, you will find talk to them the most, you will find talk to them the most, you will find that a lot of them that a lot of them that a lot of them feel that working on software alone is feel that working on software alone is feel that working on software alone is boring. boring. boring. It's not fun. It's not challenging It's not fun. It's not challenging It's not fun. It's not challenging enough. enough. enough. They want to build physical objects. They want to build physical objects. They want to build physical objects. They want to they want to touch um They want to they want to touch um They want to they want to touch um They want to get their hands dirty in They want to get their hands dirty in They want to get their hands dirty in building building building uh um uh um uh um stuff that will actually matter and get stuff that will actually matter and get stuff that will actually matter and get to our hands one way or the other. Which to our hands one way or the other. Which to our hands one way or the other. Which is super interesting because that was is super interesting because that was is super interesting because that was not the generation of the last 15-20 not the generation of the last 15-20 not the generation of the last 15-20 years. Everybody was trying to go years. Everybody was trying to go years. Everybody was trying to go capital light. capital light. capital light. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Everybody was trying to build software >> Everybody was trying to build software >> Everybody was trying to build software only and try to go to the cycles as fast only and try to go to the cycles as fast only and try to go to the cycles as fast as you can. This generation is not as you can. This generation is not as you can. This generation is not afraid of getting their hands dirty. So, afraid of getting their hands dirty. So, afraid of getting their hands dirty. So, it's super interesting to see the it's super interesting to see the it's super interesting to see the behaviors. What's the difference? Why? I behaviors. What's the difference? Why? I behaviors. What's the difference? Why? I don't know. Like maybe don't know. Like maybe don't know. Like maybe they just find that they grew up with a they just find that they grew up with a they just find that they grew up with a phone, they grew up with a tablet, they phone, they grew up with a tablet, they phone, they grew up with a tablet, they grew up with a computer, so it's not grew up with a computer, so it's not grew up with a computer, so it's not interesting enough to limit the world to interesting enough to limit the world to interesting enough to limit the world to just bits and bytes. Mhm. But, the more just bits and bytes. Mhm. But, the more just bits and bytes. Mhm. But, the more time I spend with them, the the biggest time I spend with them, the the biggest time I spend with them, the the biggest thing and the biggest question that I thing and the biggest question that I thing and the biggest question that I find asking them is find asking them is find asking them is because the oldest of this generation because the oldest of this generation because the oldest of this generation are probably 25-26, the younger are 18, are probably 25-26, the younger are 18, are probably 25-26, the younger are 18, you ask them, "What were you doing you ask them, "What were you doing you ask them, "What were you doing during COVID?" during COVID?" during COVID?" And the that is the most fascinating And the that is the most fascinating And the that is the most fascinating question. question. question. The most successful ones right now were The most successful ones right now were The most successful ones right now were the ones that during COVID were learning the ones that during COVID were learning the ones that during COVID were learning and were on YouTube sucking information about anything and sucking information about anything and learning about everything in life. So, learning about everything in life. So, learning about everything in life. So, when they go and and build companies, when they go and and build companies, when they go and and build companies, they find that first, they're naive, so they find that first, they're naive, so they find that first, they're naive, so they anything is possible. they anything is possible. they anything is possible. Second, technology is there, so anything Second, technology is there, so anything Second, technology is there, so anything is possible. is possible. is possible. Third, if you're older, Third, if you're older, Third, if you're older, you get knowledge and you get wisdom, but you may not have the motivation. but you may not have the motivation. So, he they need to find out how to So, he they need to find out how to So, he they need to find out how to bring that from people. And so, what bring that from people. And so, what bring that from people. And so, what what you're starting to see is that the what you're starting to see is that the what you're starting to see is that the best ones are attracting some of the best ones are attracting some of the best ones are attracting some of the best older people to come join them best older people to come join them best older people to come join them because they feel that magnet. And because they feel that magnet. And because they feel that magnet. And >> So, the younger people are recruiting >> So, the younger people are recruiting >> So, the younger people are recruiting the older ones. the older ones. the older ones. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. Um and they're and they're and they're Um and they're and they're and they're Um and they're and they're and they're making them work in little uh making them work in little uh making them work in little uh hubs of two or three Mhm. with two young hubs of two or three Mhm. with two young hubs of two or three Mhm. with two young ones. They're pairing them. Two ones. They're pairing them. Two ones. They're pairing them. Two 22-year-old kids 22-year-old kids 22-year-old kids with somebody uh much later working in with somebody uh much later working in with somebody uh much later working in teams together and there and that's teams together and there and that's teams together and there and that's where they're journeying between their where they're journeying between their where they're journeying between their knowledge of the new ways of operating knowledge of the new ways of operating knowledge of the new ways of operating systems with the knowledge that you need systems with the knowledge that you need systems with the knowledge that you need from 20 years of experience. from 20 years of experience. from 20 years of experience. >> If you play this out over the next like >> If you play this out over the next like >> If you play this out over the next like 5-10 years, don't they aren't they going 5-10 years, don't they aren't they going 5-10 years, don't they aren't they going to have like a massive technical to have like a massive technical to have like a massive technical advantage, too? Cuz it's like me and you advantage, too? Cuz it's like me and you advantage, too? Cuz it's like me and you you you say a lot, but not we have other you you say a lot, but not we have other you you say a lot, but not we have other stuff going on in our lives where like stuff going on in our lives where like stuff going on in our lives where like they can live and breathe it 24/7. they can live and breathe it 24/7. they can live and breathe it 24/7. >> Yes, and they will. And we just got what >> Yes, and they will. And we just got what >> Yes, and they will. And we just got what this year high school class uh sorry, this year high school class uh sorry, this year high school class uh sorry, college class is the first one college class is the first one college class is the first one that actually went to college that actually went to college that actually went to college and had AI the four years. and had AI the four years. and had AI the four years. We just started. We just started. We just started. The The The senior class, the rising senior of of senior class, the rising senior of of senior class, the rising senior of of college, it's the first class ever that college, it's the first class ever that college, it's the first class ever that probably used ChatGPT to write an essay probably used ChatGPT to write an essay probably used ChatGPT to write an essay to get to college. to get to college. to get to college. >> I keep asking questions about these >> I keep asking questions about these >> I keep asking questions about these these the young people that you hang out these the young people that you hang out these the young people that you hang out with because I've had founders like with because I've had founders like with because I've had founders like literally in their mid-30s and they're literally in their mid-30s and they're literally in their mid-30s and they're the technical leaders of their these the technical leaders of their these the technical leaders of their these really successful companies like I don't really successful companies like I don't really successful companies like I don't know if I can do this anymore, I'm too know if I can do this anymore, I'm too know if I can do this anymore, I'm too old. Like what do you mean you're too old. Like what do you mean you're too old. Like what do you mean you're too old? You're 35 years old. You're like, old? You're 35 years old. You're like, old? You're 35 years old. You're like, yeah, I think I'm going to get smoked by yeah, I think I'm going to get smoked by yeah, I think I'm going to get smoked by a 24-year-old. a 24-year-old. a 24-year-old. >> I don't think they're too old, to be >> I don't think they're too old, to be >> I don't think they're too old, to be honest. And I don't feel old and I can I honest. And I don't feel old and I can I honest. And I don't feel old and I can I feel I can I can I can still play the feel I can I can I can still play the feel I can I can I can still play the game. But you got to understand that you game. But you got to understand that you game. But you got to understand that you got to play a different game. You cannot got to play a different game. You cannot got to play a different game. You cannot keep playing the same game that you were keep playing the same game that you were keep playing the same game that you were playing in your 20s or in your 30s. You playing in your 20s or in your 30s. You playing in your 20s or in your 30s. You got to understand that the way these got to understand that the way these got to understand that the way these dynamics work and what you can bring to dynamics work and what you can bring to dynamics work and what you can bring to them is very different. them is very different. them is very different. What can you bring to them? Wisdom. What can you bring to them? Wisdom. What can you bring to them? Wisdom. Knowledge. Knowledge. Knowledge. Give them experiences, stuff that they Give them experiences, stuff that they Give them experiences, stuff that they don't understand. By the way, the best don't understand. By the way, the best don't understand. By the way, the best ones, they still lack and they they have ones, they still lack and they they have ones, they still lack and they they have to refine is taste. to refine is taste. to refine is taste. They got to be able to articulate how to They got to be able to articulate how to They got to be able to articulate how to build something beautiful. That's not build something beautiful. That's not build something beautiful. That's not easy. And if something that we've lost easy. And if something that we've lost easy. And if something that we've lost in society is ability to build beautiful in society is ability to build beautiful in society is ability to build beautiful stuff. Silicon Valley has lost that stuff. Silicon Valley has lost that stuff. Silicon Valley has lost that ability a long time ago. ability a long time ago. ability a long time ago. And we have to bring it back. I'm hoping And we have to bring it back. I'm hoping And we have to bring it back. I'm hoping this generation is the one that this generation is the one that this generation is the one that spends time thinking how to deliver spends time thinking how to deliver spends time thinking how to deliver beautiful experiences. beautiful experiences. beautiful experiences. >> Say more about Silicon Valley losing the >> Say more about Silicon Valley losing the >> Say more about Silicon Valley losing the ability to build beautiful things. ability to build beautiful things. ability to build beautiful things. >> So, you if you if you >> So, you if you if you >> So, you if you if you think about the last think about the last think about the last um um um >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> 15 years, >> 15 years, >> 15 years, the incentive systems and every material the incentive systems and every material the incentive systems and every material success was wired on success was wired on success was wired on scale, grow, go bigger, uh have a more scale, grow, go bigger, uh have a more scale, grow, go bigger, uh have a more nuance, more what but it was it was kind nuance, more what but it was it was kind nuance, more what but it was it was kind of about building beautiful products. We of about building beautiful products. We of about building beautiful products. We we have we have we have When was the last time When was the last time When was the last time you bought something you bought something you bought something some technology product that you loved? some technology product that you loved? some technology product that you loved? That you were like, "Wow, this is That you were like, "Wow, this is That you were like, "Wow, this is beautiful." beautiful." beautiful." >> I don't even want to tell you, it's >> I don't even want to tell you, it's >> I don't even want to tell you, it's embarrassing the answer. It was a Dyson embarrassing the answer. It was a Dyson embarrassing the answer. It was a Dyson vacuum cleaner. vacuum cleaner. vacuum cleaner. >> That's great. [laughter] >> That's great. [laughter] >> That's great. [laughter] But and and by the way, Dyson comes up a But and and by the way, Dyson comes up a But and and by the way, Dyson comes up a lot when I ask this question. lot when I ask this question. lot when I ask this question. Uh also the the the the Uh also the the the the Uh also the the the the >> Air wrap yeah. If you have a daughter, >> Air wrap yeah. If you have a daughter, >> Air wrap yeah. If you have a daughter, she or any women in the house like she or any women in the house like she or any women in the house like >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> They're obsessed with Dyson's products. >> They're obsessed with Dyson's products. >> They're obsessed with Dyson's products. >> And somebody in your team here was >> And somebody in your team here was >> And somebody in your team here was showing us they they still carry the showing us they they still carry the showing us they they still carry the iPhone SE. iPhone SE. iPhone SE. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Why? The small iPhone. Why? Because it's >> Why? The small iPhone. Why? Because it's >> Why? The small iPhone. Why? Because it's beautiful. It was one of the first ones beautiful. It was one of the first ones beautiful. It was one of the first ones designed a different way. So, we have designed a different way. So, we have designed a different way. So, we have lost that ability. lost that ability. lost that ability. And because we have And because we have And because we have given a price and a reward for um given a price and a reward for um given a price and a reward for um efficiency, efficiency, efficiency, algorithm, uh algorithm, uh algorithm, uh compounding of those things and we have compounding of those things and we have compounding of those things and we have put aside put aside put aside how it makes you feel. In this world how it makes you feel. In this world how it makes you feel. In this world where technology is taking over where technology is taking over where technology is taking over a lot of of our lives in the way we're a lot of of our lives in the way we're a lot of of our lives in the way we're going, going, going, more than any time in history, we're more than any time in history, we're more than any time in history, we're going to need that feeling back again. going to need that feeling back again. going to need that feeling back again. How it makes you feel. How it makes you feel. How it makes you feel. And it's not just the brand with a TV And it's not just the brand with a TV And it's not just the brand with a TV commercial, that's the commercial, that's the commercial, that's the point I'm less worried about. It's more point I'm less worried about. It's more point I'm less worried about. It's more about what's authentic, about what's authentic, about what's authentic, what's beautifully designed, and what what's beautifully designed, and what what's beautifully designed, and what does it make you feel when you are does it make you feel when you are does it make you feel when you are around it. around it. around it. >> It's the perfect time that you're >> It's the perfect time that you're >> It's the perfect time that you're bringing this up because right now, bringing this up because right now, bringing this up because right now, literally a few hours this morning literally a few hours this morning literally a few hours this morning uh in the last few days I've been uh in the last few days I've been uh in the last few days I've been rereading this biography of Jony Ive. I rereading this biography of Jony Ive. I rereading this biography of Jony Ive. I think it's called like Jony Ive: The think it's called like Jony Ive: The think it's called like Jony Ive: The Genius Behind Apple's greatest products Genius Behind Apple's greatest products Genius Behind Apple's greatest products or something like that. All he talks or something like that. All he talks or something like that. All he talks about was feeling, feeling, feeling, about was feeling, feeling, feeling, about was feeling, feeling, feeling, feeling. He didn't think computers were feeling. He didn't think computers were feeling. He didn't think computers were for him. He thought they were ugly and for him. He thought they were ugly and for him. He thought they were ugly and tacky. He starts using a Mac. This is tacky. He starts using a Mac. This is tacky. He starts using a Mac. This is years before he was even working at years before he was even working at years before he was even working at Apple. And he's just like, "Oh, there's Apple. And he's just like, "Oh, there's Apple. And he's just like, "Oh, there's a human behind this. You can tell a human behind this. You can tell a human behind this. You can tell there's a actual human that cares behind there's a actual human that cares behind there's a actual human that cares behind this." And he All he talks about He's this." And he All he talks about He's this." And he All he talks about He's talking about this redesigning talking about this redesigning talking about this redesigning hairbrushes and about how it makes him hairbrushes and about how it makes him hairbrushes and about how it makes him feel. To your point. feel. To your point. feel. To your point. >> And I think that if we don't bring that >> And I think that if we don't bring that >> And I think that if we don't bring that back, the founders that will do that back, the founders that will do that back, the founders that will do that will win. will win. will win. And the founders that don't have that And the founders that don't have that And the founders that don't have that ability, ability, ability, they don't have a chance. they don't have a chance. they don't have a chance. >> Right before you came over, I was on the >> Right before you came over, I was on the >> Right before you came over, I was on the phone with my our mutual friend Neil phone with my our mutual friend Neil phone with my our mutual friend Neil Mehta, and he keeps telling me about Mehta, and he keeps telling me about Mehta, and he keeps telling me about Nick from Revolut, right? And we were Nick from Revolut, right? And we were Nick from Revolut, right? And we were talking about some unrelated stuff, and talking about some unrelated stuff, and talking about some unrelated stuff, and I go, "Oh, I'm about to see Mickey I go, "Oh, I'm about to see Mickey I go, "Oh, I'm about to see Mickey Malkin." He's like, "You got to ask him Malkin." He's like, "You got to ask him Malkin." He's like, "You got to ask him the conversation we had if he if he the conversation we had if he if he the conversation we had if he if he remembers, because he he said you remembers, because he he said you remembers, because he he said you invested way before he did. I think he's invested way before he did. I think he's invested way before he did. I think he's done now the last like two or three done now the last like two or three done now the last like two or three rounds. But I think he remembers calling rounds. But I think he remembers calling rounds. But I think he remembers calling you and passing on Nick." Can you tell you and passing on Nick." Can you tell you and passing on Nick." Can you tell Like, why do I keep hearing about Nick? Like, why do I keep hearing about Nick? Like, why do I keep hearing about Nick? And like, what do you think makes him so And like, what do you think makes him so And like, what do you think makes him so special? special? special? >> You got to understand Nick, >> You got to understand Nick, >> You got to understand Nick, um um um for for for how he grew up and who he is to how he grew up and who he is to how he grew up and who he is to understand who he was. Uh funny enough, understand who he was. Uh funny enough, understand who he was. Uh funny enough, I was in London a few weeks ago because I was in London a few weeks ago because I was in London a few weeks ago because they finally got their bank license they finally got their bank license they finally got their bank license approved. And there was a chancellor approved. And there was a chancellor approved. And there was a chancellor there and some public officials there and some public officials there and some public officials speaking, and Nick was there with Vlad, speaking, and Nick was there with Vlad, speaking, and Nick was there with Vlad, the co-founder. And I was looking at my the co-founder. And I was looking at my the co-founder. And I was looking at my phone, and I was phone, and I was phone, and I was remembering when was the first time that remembering when was the first time that remembering when was the first time that we had we had we had we had handshaked our seed say. we had handshaked our seed say. we had handshaked our seed say. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And it was literally that same day 10 >> And it was literally that same day 10 >> And it was literally that same day 10 years before. years before. years before. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> And so I I went to them and I showed >> And so I I went to them and I showed >> And so I I went to them and I showed them the phone and said, "Listen, 10 them the phone and said, "Listen, 10 them the phone and said, "Listen, 10 years ago we were drinking vodka shots years ago we were drinking vodka shots years ago we were drinking vodka shots because we were rushed because we were rushed because we were rushed to do our A round." And what was it to do our A round." And what was it to do our A round." And what was it about him from day one? about him from day one? about him from day one? First, First, First, the name Revolut the name Revolut the name Revolut stood for who he was. stood for who he was. stood for who he was. He wanted to truly create a revolution He wanted to truly create a revolution He wanted to truly create a revolution in in money. Like there was nothing in in in money. Like there was nothing in in in money. Like there was nothing in the middle about it. He had come to the middle about it. He had come to the middle about it. He had come to London. He had left Moscow. He was a London. He had left Moscow. He was a London. He had left Moscow. He was a trader. He was frustrated with how trader. He was frustrated with how trader. He was frustrated with how complex it was to move money, how complex it was to move money, how complex it was to move money, how difficult and how expensive and how difficult and how expensive and how difficult and how expensive and how unfair it was for everyone in the unfair it was for everyone in the unfair it was for everyone in the system. And he says, system. And he says, system. And he says, "Fuck it. I got to change this." "Fuck it. I got to change this." "Fuck it. I got to change this." So, that core So, that core So, that core DNA was there from day one. DNA was there from day one. DNA was there from day one. Uh and then Uh and then Uh and then when he lifted every single day. He He when he lifted every single day. He He when he lifted every single day. He He will wake up every day and go swimming. will wake up every day and go swimming. will wake up every day and go swimming. He will He will He will work in the office. He was the first one work in the office. He was the first one work in the office. He was the first one to arrive, the last one to leave, and to arrive, the last one to leave, and to arrive, the last one to leave, and the first one to arrive the next day the first one to arrive the next day the first one to arrive the next day again. And he will swim and stay fit and again. And he will swim and stay fit and again. And he will swim and stay fit and just just just relentlessly focus on getting relentlessly focus on getting relentlessly focus on getting this mission moving forward. And people this mission moving forward. And people this mission moving forward. And people just either competed with him just either competed with him just either competed with him at that level because it was a at that level because it was a at that level because it was a performance at a a level that an performance at a a level that an performance at a a level that an execution that he was just a machine. It execution that he was just a machine. It execution that he was just a machine. It was non-stop. I just have this mission was non-stop. I just have this mission was non-stop. I just have this mission and I have to do it in my lifetime. and I have to do it in my lifetime. and I have to do it in my lifetime. >> I'm glad you said the machine cuz I >> I'm glad you said the machine cuz I >> I'm glad you said the machine cuz I think that's what Neil described me. think that's what Neil described me. think that's what Neil described me. He's like, "He's like a [ __ ] He's like, "He's like a [ __ ] He's like, "He's like a [ __ ] Terminator." Terminator." Terminator." >> But that was that was Nick in his late >> But that was that was Nick in his late >> But that was that was Nick in his late 20s. That was who he was then in late 20s. That was who he was then in late 20s. That was who he was then in late 20s. Now, the 20s. Now, the 20s. Now, the Nick of today, uh Nick of today, uh Nick of today, uh 10 years later, 10 years later, 10 years later, uh uh uh he's he's he's he's getting better. he's getting better. he's getting better. He's getting better because now he can He's getting better because now he can He's getting better because now he can lead. He can lead by example. He can lead. He can lead by example. He can lead. He can lead by example. He can lead by mission. He's a missionary also lead by mission. He's a missionary also lead by mission. He's a missionary also now. He can lead by taste. He has very now. He can lead by taste. He has very now. He can lead by taste. He has very strong opinions on how things needs to strong opinions on how things needs to strong opinions on how things needs to go. He still has 20 people direct report go. He still has 20 people direct report go. He still has 20 people direct report to him. to him. to him. And he will work 7 days a week. And he will work 7 days a week. And he will work 7 days a week. And then every number of weeks they take And then every number of weeks they take And then every number of weeks they take 2 weeks off. Like you can see the his 2 weeks off. Like you can see the his 2 weeks off. Like you can see the his behavior of work. He's fine-tuned to who behavior of work. He's fine-tuned to who behavior of work. He's fine-tuned to who he is now compared to who he was before. he is now compared to who he was before. he is now compared to who he was before. So, consistency what what what I'd like So, consistency what what what I'd like So, consistency what what what I'd like to do is when we back these teams, we to do is when we back these teams, we to do is when we back these teams, we try to understand the DNA of the try to understand the DNA of the try to understand the DNA of the founder, and we try to understand what founder, and we try to understand what founder, and we try to understand what drives them, and how do they work? But drives them, and how do they work? But drives them, and how do they work? But more importantly, we want to see if that more importantly, we want to see if that more importantly, we want to see if that DNA reflects in the offices, in the DNA reflects in the offices, in the DNA reflects in the offices, in the team, in the people, in the way they team, in the people, in the way they team, in the people, in the way they talk, in the way they they they move. talk, in the way they they they move. talk, in the way they they they move. And you still go to the Revolut offices, And you still go to the Revolut offices, And you still go to the Revolut offices, which is like in now in I don't know, which is like in now in I don't know, which is like in now in I don't know, 15, 20 countries, 15, 20 countries, 15, 20 countries, and I've been to the the one in the and I've been to the the one in the and I've been to the the one in the Middle East, in Barcelona, in London in Middle East, in Barcelona, in London in Middle East, in Barcelona, in London in the last year and a half, the last year and a half, the last year and a half, you still you still you still breathe the that DNA still there. So, breathe the that DNA still there. So, breathe the that DNA still there. So, that's what keeps it going. that's what keeps it going. that's what keeps it going. Uh it's it's a very special way that you Uh it's it's a very special way that you Uh it's it's a very special way that you got to understand the founder really got to understand the founder really got to understand the founder really well to know because each org is very well to know because each org is very well to know because each org is very different. different. different. >> So, when you say you want to understand >> So, when you say you want to understand >> So, when you say you want to understand the founder's DNA, how do you go about the founder's DNA, how do you go about the founder's DNA, how do you go about understanding that? understanding that? understanding that? >> You got to spend time with them. >> You got to spend time with them. >> You got to spend time with them. And you got to ask them all the And you got to ask them all the And you got to ask them all the questions, and you got to build a level questions, and you got to build a level questions, and you got to build a level of trust where honestly, you don't have of trust where honestly, you don't have of trust where honestly, you don't have to talk about business that much. to talk about business that much. to talk about business that much. What kind of level of trust you got to What kind of level of trust you got to What kind of level of trust you got to you get How do you build that trust to you get How do you build that trust to you get How do you build that trust to talk to them in a way where they feel talk to them in a way where they feel talk to them in a way where they feel that they can trust you back? That they that they can trust you back? That they that they can trust you back? That they can call you when they cannot sleep at can call you when they cannot sleep at can call you when they cannot sleep at night. Those are the things that you got night. Those are the things that you got night. Those are the things that you got to I spend most of my time in the team to I spend most of my time in the team to I spend most of my time in the team at Revolut spend most of the time doing, at Revolut spend most of the time doing, at Revolut spend most of the time doing, which is building that level of which is building that level of which is building that level of understanding and relationship, so we understanding and relationship, so we understanding and relationship, so we know how they behave. know how they behave. know how they behave. Once you know how how people behave, Once you know how how people behave, Once you know how how people behave, then everything's fine because you will then everything's fine because you will then everything's fine because you will see consistency or they will break it. see consistency or they will break it. see consistency or they will break it. >> Explain why it's important to you to be >> Explain why it's important to you to be >> Explain why it's important to you to be the person that they call and when they the person that they call and when they the person that they call and when they have problems. Like you just use the have problems. Like you just use the have problems. Like you just use the example of like when they can't sleep at example of like when they can't sleep at example of like when they can't sleep at night. night. night. >> Because all of us have something that >> Because all of us have something that >> Because all of us have something that wakes us up at night from time to time. wakes us up at night from time to time. wakes us up at night from time to time. And that that particular mind And that that particular mind And that that particular mind problem that you're trying to solve it's problem that you're trying to solve it's problem that you're trying to solve it's the biggest thing that you have to get the biggest thing that you have to get the biggest thing that you have to get unlocked to keep being the best version unlocked to keep being the best version unlocked to keep being the best version of of yourself. of of yourself. of of yourself. And when you're there, And when you're there, And when you're there, sometimes it's really hard to trust if sometimes it's really hard to trust if sometimes it's really hard to trust if it's a vulnerable question. Sometimes it's a vulnerable question. Sometimes it's a vulnerable question. Sometimes it's really uh deep and has a lot of it's really uh deep and has a lot of it's really uh deep and has a lot of strategic consequences, and you want to strategic consequences, and you want to strategic consequences, and you want to be really you're you're going to your be really you're you're going to your be really you're you're going to your mind a lot, mind a lot, mind a lot, and and and if we get that phone call, if we get that phone call, if we get that phone call, it means that we did a hundred things it means that we did a hundred things it means that we did a hundred things right right right to deserve the right to be there to help to deserve the right to be there to help to deserve the right to be there to help this person think through it. this person think through it. this person think through it. Never answer the question. Never answer the question. Never answer the question. Just help him or her answer the Just help him or her answer the Just help him or her answer the question. question. question. And that means that you were able to And that means that you were able to And that means that you were able to talk about life and family. You were talk about life and family. You were talk about life and family. You were able to talk about society and politics, able to talk about society and politics, able to talk about society and politics, and you were able to talk about and you were able to talk about and you were able to talk about everything because that's the only way everything because that's the only way everything because that's the only way you're going to get to the really help you're going to get to the really help you're going to get to the really help this person answer the question. this person answer the question. this person answer the question. >> So, you have all in many cases, you >> So, you have all in many cases, you >> So, you have all in many cases, you know, decade-plus relationships with a know, decade-plus relationships with a know, decade-plus relationships with a lot of the founders that you back. lot of the founders that you back. lot of the founders that you back. How does like Can you compare like Nick How does like Can you compare like Nick How does like Can you compare like Nick to the other ones? Like what are What to the other ones? Like what are What to the other ones? Like what are What are the traits that you think they share are the traits that you think they share are the traits that you think they share among the people that you spend the most among the people that you spend the most among the people that you spend the most time with? time with? time with? >> Well, they all want to win in their own >> Well, they all want to win in their own >> Well, they all want to win in their own well-being. They care about well-being. They care about well-being. They care about if they're true to themselves, they if they're true to themselves, they if they're true to themselves, they still the mission that they wrote on the still the mission that they wrote on the still the mission that they wrote on the first day is still present today. first day is still present today. first day is still present today. And when you find that authenticity, And when you find that authenticity, And when you find that authenticity, they win. So, the ones that are they win. So, the ones that are they win. So, the ones that are authentic are the ones that you can authentic are the ones that you can authentic are the ones that you can keep seeing. The ones that fake it till keep seeing. The ones that fake it till keep seeing. The ones that fake it till they make it, and then they change, and they make it, and then they change, and they make it, and then they change, and then they move, and then they then they move, and then they then they move, and then they Those are the ones that over time you Those are the ones that over time you Those are the ones that over time you just just just don't have the appetite to spend time don't have the appetite to spend time don't have the appetite to spend time with. It's not worth with. It's not worth with. It's not worth >> reflected in the performance of the >> reflected in the performance of the >> reflected in the performance of the company, too? company, too? company, too? >> Sometimes you >> Sometimes you >> Sometimes you >> You have people that fake it, and then >> You have people that fake it, and then >> You have people that fake it, and then they build massively successful they build massively successful they build massively successful companies. companies. companies. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. They They are, for sure. They They are, for sure. They They are, for sure. But sometimes, somewhere, somehow down But sometimes, somewhere, somehow down But sometimes, somewhere, somehow down the line, the line, the line, authenticity matters. authenticity matters. authenticity matters. And as long as you're authentic to And as long as you're authentic to And as long as you're authentic to yourself, and you keep your values yourself, and you keep your values yourself, and you keep your values authentic, and you remember yourself why authentic, and you remember yourself why authentic, and you remember yourself why you're doing what you're doing, and you you're doing what you're doing, and you you're doing what you're doing, and you can wake up every day with that energy, can wake up every day with that energy, can wake up every day with that energy, you'll you'll you'll you'll be fine. you'll be fine. you'll be fine. >> So, if we go back to that idea that Rick >> So, if we go back to that idea that Rick >> So, if we go back to that idea that Rick Rubin has like these four handful of Rubin has like these four handful of Rubin has like these four handful of ideas. Could be four, could be five, ideas. Could be four, could be five, ideas. Could be four, could be five, could be six ideas that he just used for could be six ideas that he just used for could be six ideas that he just used for the over multiple decades. the over multiple decades. the over multiple decades. What would like be the list of traits What would like be the list of traits What would like be the list of traits that you would If I said, "Hey, list out that you would If I said, "Hey, list out that you would If I said, "Hey, list out the four or five things that you want the four or five things that you want the four or five things that you want the founders that you want to build the founders that you want to build the founders that you want to build long-term relationships with and partner long-term relationships with and partner long-term relationships with and partner with over long term have. What would with over long term have. What would with over long term have. What would those What would your answer to that be? those What would your answer to that be? those What would your answer to that be? >> We have this thing called the eye eye of >> We have this thing called the eye eye of >> We have this thing called the eye eye of the tiger. It's our way of thinking the tiger. It's our way of thinking the tiger. It's our way of thinking about the people that we want to back about the people that we want to back about the people that we want to back and how we want to partner with them. and how we want to partner with them. and how we want to partner with them. And as everything as I told you before, And as everything as I told you before, And as everything as I told you before, it needs to fit in a napkin. So, if you it needs to fit in a napkin. So, if you it needs to fit in a napkin. So, if you we wrote it in a napkin, it means that we wrote it in a napkin, it means that we wrote it in a napkin, it means that we thought about it long enough that we we thought about it long enough that we we thought about it long enough that we have it, right? And it's basically the have it, right? And it's basically the have it, right? And it's basically the energy of a scientist, the conviction of energy of a scientist, the conviction of energy of a scientist, the conviction of a missionary, a missionary, a missionary, the heart of a partner, the dreams of an the heart of a partner, the dreams of an the heart of a partner, the dreams of an athlete, the obsession of an owner. When athlete, the obsession of an owner. When athlete, the obsession of an owner. When we meet them we meet them we meet them and we spend time with them, and we spend time with them, and we spend time with them, we want to we want to we want to make sure those things are present. make sure those things are present. make sure those things are present. And if they are, that's the kind of And if they are, that's the kind of And if they are, that's the kind of people that we want to partner with. people that we want to partner with. people that we want to partner with. >> How long did it take you to develop like >> How long did it take you to develop like >> How long did it take you to develop like how many It's over several years where how many It's over several years where how many It's over several years where you guys figured out these like these you guys figured out these like these you guys figured out these like these recurring traits? recurring traits? recurring traits? >> This is several years. This is probably >> This is several years. This is probably >> This is several years. This is probably a decade. To actually we probably put it a decade. To actually we probably put it a decade. To actually we probably put it into a napkin into a napkin into a napkin uh 5 years ago. So, yeah, it took us uh 5 years ago. So, yeah, it took us uh 5 years ago. So, yeah, it took us almost 10 years. almost 10 years. almost 10 years. >> Do you consider yourself a patient >> Do you consider yourself a patient >> Do you consider yourself a patient person? person? person? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Several of the questions I've actually >> Several of the questions I've actually >> Several of the questions I've actually said is like, "Oh, yeah, that took a said is like, "Oh, yeah, that took a said is like, "Oh, yeah, that took a couple years. That took a couple years." couple years. That took a couple years." couple years. That took a couple years." You started your first company when you You started your first company when you You started your first company when you were what? Like 17? were what? Like 17? were what? Like 17? >> 17. >> 17. >> 17. >> And you didn't found you founded most >> And you didn't found you founded most >> And you didn't found you founded most companies, but you founded Ribbit 20 companies, but you founded Ribbit 20 companies, but you founded Ribbit 20 years later? More or less? years later? More or less? years later? More or less? >> I founded Ribbit uh much later. I >> I founded Ribbit uh much later. I >> I founded Ribbit uh much later. I founded Ribbit founded Ribbit founded Ribbit uh almost uh almost uh almost uh 20 Yeah, 20 years later. uh 20 Yeah, 20 years later. uh 20 Yeah, 20 years later. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> 21 years later. >> 21 years later. >> 21 years later. >> 21 years later. You've been doing it for >> 21 years later. You've been doing it for >> 21 years later. You've been doing it for almost 14 years now. almost 14 years now. almost 14 years now. >> 14 years. >> 14 years. >> 14 years. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And I heard you say before it's like, >> And I heard you say before it's like, >> And I heard you say before it's like, "Well, everyone's like, 'Well, you have "Well, everyone's like, 'Well, you have "Well, everyone's like, 'Well, you have had this fantastic record. You've done had this fantastic record. You've done had this fantastic record. You've done all this.'" You're like, "Yeah, but it's all this.'" You're like, "Yeah, but it's all this.'" You're like, "Yeah, but it's like super early." like super early." like super early." >> We got a long way to go. >> We got a long way to go. >> We got a long way to go. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh we found amazing people to partner. >> Uh we found amazing people to partner. >> Uh we found amazing people to partner. We got great ideas. We got great ideas. We got great ideas. Um we're still building. Um we're still building. Um we're still building. Um I mean, we built a company with Um I mean, we built a company with Um I mean, we built a company with Walmart. I mean, think about it. It's Walmart. I mean, think about it. It's Walmart. I mean, think about it. It's just It's the first time ever that that just It's the first time ever that that just It's the first time ever that that has happened. has happened. has happened. >> Okay, I just heard about this. Our We >> Okay, I just heard about this. Our We >> Okay, I just heard about this. Our We have a mutual friend Sebastian, founder have a mutual friend Sebastian, founder have a mutual friend Sebastian, founder of former fabric founder of Rappi. And of former fabric founder of Rappi. And of former fabric founder of Rappi. And he's like tell ask him about the deal he he's like tell ask him about the deal he he's like tell ask him about the deal he did with Walmart." did with Walmart." did with Walmart." >> It just speaks to a little bit of of >> It just speaks to a little bit of of >> It just speaks to a little bit of of this value system of ours. David, this value system of ours. David, this value system of ours. David, uh we had a chance to meet uh I've been uh we had a chance to meet uh I've been uh we had a chance to meet uh I've been a fan of Sam Walton all my life, right? a fan of Sam Walton all my life, right? a fan of Sam Walton all my life, right? >> Same. >> Same. >> Same. >> And I I had read every book. I had never >> And I I had read every book. I had never >> And I I had read every book. I had never been to Bentonville until a few a few been to Bentonville until a few a few been to Bentonville until a few a few years ago. years ago. years ago. But I had read everything about him and But I had read everything about him and But I had read everything about him and I had followed and I remember Buffett I had followed and I remember Buffett I had followed and I remember Buffett owned the stock for a particular period owned the stock for a particular period owned the stock for a particular period of time until he sold it. of time until he sold it. of time until he sold it. And that was when I first learned about And that was when I first learned about And that was when I first learned about Walmart back in the day. Walmart back in the day. Walmart back in the day. And uh in 2019, And uh in 2019, And uh in 2019, through Sarah Friar, who's now OpenAI, through Sarah Friar, who's now OpenAI, through Sarah Friar, who's now OpenAI, but she was uh she was in the board but she was uh she was in the board but she was uh she was in the board She's on the board of Walmart. She She's on the board of Walmart. She She's on the board of Walmart. She organized a dinner where I had a chance organized a dinner where I had a chance organized a dinner where I had a chance to meet Doug McMillon, the CEO at the to meet Doug McMillon, the CEO at the to meet Doug McMillon, the CEO at the time. time. time. And we had a lovely dinner in San And we had a lovely dinner in San And we had a lovely dinner in San Francisco a few months before COVID. Francisco a few months before COVID. Francisco a few months before COVID. And Doug says So then he says, "Listen, And Doug says So then he says, "Listen, And Doug says So then he says, "Listen, if you ever find yourself in if you ever find yourself in if you ever find yourself in Bentonville, come visit me." Bentonville, come visit me." Bentonville, come visit me." And I'm like, "I don't know what I'm And I'm like, "I don't know what I'm And I'm like, "I don't know what I'm going to do in Bentonville, but going to do in Bentonville, but going to do in Bentonville, but uh uh uh so so so I left the dinner. I was so impressed by I left the dinner. I was so impressed by I left the dinner. I was so impressed by by Doug, his way of speaking, his by Doug, his way of speaking, his by Doug, his way of speaking, his understanding about micro, the world, understanding about micro, the world, understanding about micro, the world, the values of Walmart. Everything was so the values of Walmart. Everything was so the values of Walmart. Everything was so present in in him at that dinner. present in in him at that dinner. present in in him at that dinner. Uh it was a small dinner, so it Uh it was a small dinner, so it Uh it was a small dinner, so it could have been something different, but could have been something different, but could have been something different, but it was authentic to him. it was authentic to him. it was authentic to him. That uh we went as a team to a couple of That uh we went as a team to a couple of That uh we went as a team to a couple of Walmart stores. We tried every financial Walmart stores. We tried every financial Walmart stores. We tried every financial product we can buy we could. We did product we can buy we could. We did product we can buy we could. We did remittances, prepaid card, bill, and we remittances, prepaid card, bill, and we remittances, prepaid card, bill, and we found bugs, and we found all these found bugs, and we found all these found bugs, and we found all these things that looked like 1990s things that looked like 1990s things that looked like 1990s fintech. fintech. fintech. >> Were they selling them them So there's >> Were they selling them them So there's >> Were they selling them them So there's like vendors like vendors like vendors >> They had vendors, and they had partners, >> They had vendors, and they had partners, >> They had vendors, and they had partners, and they had their own Walmart card, it and they had their own Walmart card, it and they had their own Walmart card, it was a whatever card. was a whatever card. was a whatever card. So I wrote him in January before COVID. So I wrote him in January before COVID. So I wrote him in January before COVID. I said, "Listen, if you're I said, "Listen, if you're I said, "Listen, if you're in Bentonville, I'd love to go see you." in Bentonville, I'd love to go see you." in Bentonville, I'd love to go see you." And And And lo and behold, he said, "Yes." Showed lo and behold, he said, "Yes." Showed lo and behold, he said, "Yes." Showed up. up. up. Sat down with with Doug, and he Sat down with with Doug, and he Sat down with with Doug, and he introduced me to John Furner, who's now introduced me to John Furner, who's now introduced me to John Furner, who's now the CEO of Walmart. Who's a long time the CEO of Walmart. Who's a long time the CEO of Walmart. Who's a long time with Doug. They were there for almost 30 with Doug. They were there for almost 30 with Doug. They were there for almost 30 years at Walmart, both of them since years at Walmart, both of them since years at Walmart, both of them since they since they were 17. And John is my they since they were 17. And John is my they since they were 17. And John is my age, so we're we started at the same age, so we're we started at the same age, so we're we started at the same time in two different continents, and we time in two different continents, and we time in two different continents, and we were sitting in the same room talking were sitting in the same room talking were sitting in the same room talking about this. And I said, "Listen, you about this. And I said, "Listen, you about this. And I said, "Listen, you guys can build something much better guys can build something much better guys can build something much better with financial services here. with financial services here. with financial services here. This is not your priority number one, This is not your priority number one, This is not your priority number one, two, or three. It is for us. Let's two, or three. It is for us. Let's two, or three. It is for us. Let's figure it out." And they did something figure it out." And they did something figure it out." And they did something that never they had never done. They that never they had never done. They that never they had never done. They created a JV, created a JV, created a JV, a company that we both co-own, a company that we both co-own, a company that we both co-own, and we went together and built a and we went together and built a and we went together and built a rockstar team rockstar team rockstar team with a new brand. We bought two with a new brand. We bought two with a new brand. We bought two companies and companies and companies and to build the infrastructure run by Omar to build the infrastructure run by Omar to build the infrastructure run by Omar Ismail today, and it's called OnePay, Ismail today, and it's called OnePay, Ismail today, and it's called OnePay, and it's one of the biggest financial and it's one of the biggest financial and it's one of the biggest financial brands that you've never heard of. brands that you've never heard of. brands that you've never heard of. >> Operating out of all the Walmarts? >> Operating out of all the Walmarts? >> Operating out of all the Walmarts? >> You will see it online, on every >> You will see it online, on every >> You will see it online, on every shopping card experience on Walmart. You shopping card experience on Walmart. You shopping card experience on Walmart. You will see it in the retails everywhere. will see it in the retails everywhere. will see it in the retails everywhere. If you want to pay with your phone If you want to pay with your phone If you want to pay with your phone today, the only way to pay at Walmart is today, the only way to pay at Walmart is today, the only way to pay at Walmart is with OnePay. If you want to have a debit with OnePay. If you want to have a debit with OnePay. If you want to have a debit card, it's the only way. You want a loan card, it's the only way. You want a loan card, it's the only way. You want a loan from Klarna, it goes through OnePay. If from Klarna, it goes through OnePay. If from Klarna, it goes through OnePay. If you want an installment loan, you want a you want an installment loan, you want a you want an installment loan, you want a credit card, it goes through OnePay. credit card, it goes through OnePay. credit card, it goes through OnePay. Every single financial product to Every single financial product to Every single financial product to millions and millions and millions of millions and millions and millions of millions and millions and millions of American consumers. American consumers. American consumers. And the beauty of that is that with John And the beauty of that is that with John And the beauty of that is that with John being And this is the beauty of the being And this is the beauty of the being And this is the beauty of the Walmart culture. John had been in China Walmart culture. John had been in China Walmart culture. John had been in China for a number of years. They he had for a number of years. They he had for a number of years. They he had learned how learned how learned how uh WeChat Pay worked and how Alipay did uh WeChat Pay worked and how Alipay did uh WeChat Pay worked and how Alipay did business. They were investors in India business. They were investors in India business. They were investors in India and Flipkart and PhonePe. So, then they and Flipkart and PhonePe. So, then they and Flipkart and PhonePe. So, then they saw what what could happen with mobile saw what what could happen with mobile saw what what could happen with mobile money. They have been the greatest money. They have been the greatest money. They have been the greatest partners to have. partners to have. partners to have. And so, together And so, together And so, together between the founder team, Ribbit, and between the founder team, Ribbit, and between the founder team, Ribbit, and Walmart, we have built this amazing Walmart, we have built this amazing Walmart, we have built this amazing journey together that is quite unique journey together that is quite unique journey together that is quite unique for a big corporation like that. for a big corporation like that. for a big corporation like that. >> I found one of my all-time favorite >> I found one of my all-time favorite >> I found one of my all-time favorite quotes when I was reading the book Zero quotes when I was reading the book Zero quotes when I was reading the book Zero to One. The quote says, "The single most to One. The quote says, "The single most to One. The quote says, "The single most powerful pattern [music] I have noticed powerful pattern [music] I have noticed powerful pattern [music] I have noticed is that successful people find value in is that successful people find value in is that successful people find value in unexpected places, and they do this by unexpected places, and they do this by unexpected places, and they do this by thinking about business from first thinking about business from first thinking about business from first principles instead of formulas. That is principles instead of formulas. That is principles instead of formulas. That is exactly what AppLovin [music] has done exactly what AppLovin [music] has done exactly what AppLovin [music] has done with their advertising platform. with their advertising platform. with their advertising platform. AppLovin connects you with over a AppLovin connects you with over a AppLovin connects you with over a billion potential new customers [music] billion potential new customers [music] billion potential new customers [music] inside mobile games. AppLovin allows you inside mobile games. AppLovin allows you inside mobile games. AppLovin allows you to capture undivided attention. to capture undivided attention. to capture undivided attention. AppLovin ads are full-screen video ads AppLovin ads are full-screen video ads AppLovin ads are full-screen video ads that are watched for an average of 35 that are watched for an average of 35 that are watched for an average of 35 seconds. That is retention that blows seconds. That is retention that blows seconds. That is retention that blows other ad platforms out of the water. And other ad platforms out of the water. And other ad platforms out of the water. And you can launch on AppLovin in minutes. you can launch on AppLovin in minutes. you can launch on AppLovin in minutes. You set the goal, and AppLovin achieves You set the goal, and AppLovin achieves You set the goal, and AppLovin achieves it. There's no complex setup, no it. There's no complex setup, no it. There's no complex setup, no expertise needed, and AppLovin scales expertise needed, and AppLovin scales expertise needed, and AppLovin scales quickly. They can put your ads in front quickly. They can put your ads in front quickly. They can put your ads in front of over a billion potential customers. of over a billion potential customers. of over a billion potential customers. Other businesses have seen immediate Other businesses have seen immediate Other businesses have seen immediate results, have scaled [music] to hundreds results, have scaled [music] to hundreds results, have scaled [music] to hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend per of thousands of dollars to spend per of thousands of dollars to spend per day, and increased their revenue by day, and increased their revenue by day, and increased their revenue by millions. So, you want to get started millions. So, you want to get started millions. So, you want to get started quickly before all of your competitors quickly before all of your competitors quickly before all of your competitors are on AppLovin. And you can do that by are on AppLovin. And you can do that by are on AppLovin. And you can do that by going to applovin.com. going to applovin.com. going to applovin.com. That's applovin.com. Tell me if I'm I'm connecting things Tell me if I'm I'm connecting things that are unrelated or not, but I don't that are unrelated or not, but I don't that are unrelated or not, but I don't think I am. think I am. think I am. What was the business that it was either What was the business that it was either What was the business that it was either you or your partner built? you or your partner built? you or your partner built? It was like this bank this branchless It was like this bank this branchless It was like this bank this branchless bank in convenience stores or some [ __ ] bank in convenience stores or some [ __ ] bank in convenience stores or some [ __ ] like that in South America in Brazil. like that in South America in Brazil. like that in South America in Brazil. Okay. What was the name of that? Okay. What was the name of that? Okay. What was the name of that? >> It was called Lemon Bank. >> It was called Lemon Bank. >> It was called Lemon Bank. >> Okay. Lemon Bank. >> Okay. Lemon Bank. >> Okay. Lemon Bank. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Is >> Is >> Is It sounds like you almost took like an It sounds like you almost took like an It sounds like you almost took like an idea that worked in Lemon because you idea that worked in Lemon because you idea that worked in Lemon because you guys You were the founder of that or guys You were the founder of that or guys You were the founder of that or >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Okay. And then you Well, explain what >> Okay. And then you Well, explain what >> Okay. And then you Well, explain what Lemon Bank is. But then you sell it to Lemon Bank is. But then you sell it to Lemon Bank is. But then you sell it to the biggest bank in Brazil, right? the biggest bank in Brazil, right? the biggest bank in Brazil, right? >> Is this not the same idea but kind of >> Is this not the same idea but kind of >> Is this not the same idea but kind of with Walmart? with Walmart? with Walmart? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> This speaks to why keep I'll ask you if >> This speaks to why keep I'll ask you if >> This speaks to why keep I'll ask you if you're patient. I'll ask you what are you're patient. I'll ask you what are you're patient. I'll ask you what are the traits that like that you you notice the traits that like that you you notice the traits that like that you you notice in the greatest founders because I in the greatest founders because I in the greatest founders because I noticed them in you. So, like patience, noticed them in you. So, like patience, noticed them in you. So, like patience, long-term thinking, uh long-term thinking, uh long-term thinking, uh reputation, which I want to get to in a reputation, which I want to get to in a reputation, which I want to get to in a minute, which is how me and you actually minute, which is how me and you actually minute, which is how me and you actually met cuz you helped me like I had a big met cuz you helped me like I had a big met cuz you helped me like I had a big decision to make in my career and like decision to make in my career and like decision to make in my career and like your reputation preceded you and I was your reputation preceded you and I was your reputation preceded you and I was like I actually need to meet this guy like I actually need to meet this guy like I actually need to meet this guy cuz I have some some questions for him. cuz I have some some questions for him. cuz I have some some questions for him. So, this is what I mean. It's like you So, this is what I mean. It's like you So, this is what I mean. It's like you you you talked about in the infinite you you talked about in the infinite you you talked about in the infinite game earlier. It's like I'm going to do game earlier. It's like I'm going to do game earlier. It's like I'm going to do this till I die, which you just said, this till I die, which you just said, this till I die, which you just said, which I [ __ ] love, by the way. And which I [ __ ] love, by the way. And which I [ __ ] love, by the way. And you're I'm hearing you talk, and I knew you're I'm hearing you talk, and I knew you're I'm hearing you talk, and I knew the rough shape of the Walmart thing. I the rough shape of the Walmart thing. I the rough shape of the Walmart thing. I didn't know what it was called. I'm didn't know what it was called. I'm didn't know what it was called. I'm like, wait a minute. This sounds like like, wait a minute. This sounds like like, wait a minute. This sounds like Lemon Bank. Lemon Bank. Lemon Bank. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Okay, so explain the connection between >> Okay, so explain the connection between >> Okay, so explain the connection between the two. the two. the two. >> That's the infinite game right there. >> That's the infinite game right there. >> That's the infinite game right there. You just You just said it You just You just said it You just You just said it yourself really well. yourself really well. yourself really well. When you're playing this life [snorts] When you're playing this life [snorts] When you're playing this life [snorts] game, and it's infinite, game, and it's infinite, game, and it's infinite, being ahead or behind in 2003 when we being ahead or behind in 2003 when we being ahead or behind in 2003 when we started our business in Brazil, and I started our business in Brazil, and I started our business in Brazil, and I lived there for 3 years, and grinded, lived there for 3 years, and grinded, lived there for 3 years, and grinded, few times almost died trying this few times almost died trying this few times almost died trying this business, and we almost killed the business, and we almost killed the business, and we almost killed the business twice along the way, almost business twice along the way, almost business twice along the way, almost lost all the money I have ever made. lost all the money I have ever made. lost all the money I have ever made. >> How would you get a pause there? We'll >> How would you get a pause there? We'll >> How would you get a pause there? We'll get to where it goes. How did you almost get to where it goes. How did you almost get to where it goes. How did you almost lose all the money you ever made? lose all the money you ever made? lose all the money you ever made? >> Because when I When we we had sold our >> Because when I When we we had sold our >> Because when I When we we had sold our first dot-com company, and then uh we first dot-com company, and then uh we first dot-com company, and then uh we used all the proceeds to start this bank used all the proceeds to start this bank used all the proceeds to start this bank in Brazil. I moved with with my wife to in Brazil. I moved with with my wife to in Brazil. I moved with with my wife to Brazil. We were living there. Brazil. We were living there. Brazil. We were living there. >> no investors? >> no investors? >> no investors? >> No, we had no investors. It was just my >> No, we had no investors. It was just my >> No, we had no investors. It was just my business partner Wences Casares and business partner Wences Casares and business partner Wences Casares and myself, and myself, and myself, and my goal my goal my goal >> all your chips back on the table. >> all your chips back on the table. >> all your chips back on the table. >> chips back on the table. We were 25, 26. >> chips back on the table. We were 25, 26. >> chips back on the table. We were 25, 26. So, and almost lost everything because So, and almost lost everything because So, and almost lost everything because the economy didn't take off. No matter the economy didn't take off. No matter the economy didn't take off. No matter what we did, we just couldn't what we did, we just couldn't what we did, we just couldn't which is how you learn that micro which is how you learn that micro which is how you learn that micro matters, and I learned that growing up matters, and I learned that growing up matters, and I learned that growing up in Venezuela with hyperinflation and in Venezuela with hyperinflation and in Venezuela with hyperinflation and devaluation. But then another thing is devaluation. But then another thing is devaluation. But then another thing is to live it also when all your money's on to live it also when all your money's on to live it also when all your money's on the table. the table. the table. >> So, wait. You're a 25-year-old kid >> So, wait. You're a 25-year-old kid >> So, wait. You're a 25-year-old kid wanting to build essentially like a wanting to build essentially like a wanting to build essentially like a branchless bank. Is that how you branchless bank. Is that how you branchless bank. Is that how you describe it? describe it? describe it? >> And your idea at the time is to set >> And your idea at the time is to set >> And your idea at the time is to set these little like kiosks? What are What these little like kiosks? What are What these little like kiosks? What are What are they even called? are they even called? are they even called? >> were There were There were three models. >> were There were There were three models. >> were There were There were three models. We had We had We had We had We had We had inside existing stores at checkout. We inside existing stores at checkout. We inside existing stores at checkout. We had kiosks inside stores, which was a had kiosks inside stores, which was a had kiosks inside stores, which was a hybrid model. And we had franchisee hybrid model. And we had franchisee hybrid model. And we had franchisee little stores that only did our our little stores that only did our our little stores that only did our our payment systems. Because this is before payment systems. Because this is before payment systems. Because this is before the smartphone, right? But it was mobile the smartphone, right? But it was mobile the smartphone, right? But it was mobile uh or a lot of but so we had to it was a uh or a lot of but so we had to it was a uh or a lot of but so we had to it was a hybrid of 2003 to 2007 hybrid of 2003 to 2007 hybrid of 2003 to 2007 >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> era. So, we had to build all of this and >> era. So, we had to build all of this and >> era. So, we had to build all of this and run all of this. We had at peak we had run all of this. We had at peak we had run all of this. We had at peak we had 7,000 of these physical spaces all over 7,000 of these physical spaces all over 7,000 of these physical spaces all over Brazil. We were serving 15 million Brazil. We were serving 15 million Brazil. We were serving 15 million customers. Half of Brazil back then was customers. Half of Brazil back then was customers. Half of Brazil back then was unbanked. unbanked. unbanked. >> Unbanked? >> Unbanked? >> Unbanked? >> Unbanked. >> Unbanked. >> Unbanked. >> So, that was the opportunity >> So, that was the opportunity >> So, that was the opportunity >> That was the opportunity to bank them. >> That was the opportunity to bank them. >> That was the opportunity to bank them. We were the first to bank them to 15 We were the first to bank them to 15 We were the first to bank them to 15 million people. million people. million people. >> So, essentially you did like the legwork >> So, essentially you did like the legwork >> So, essentially you did like the legwork for the the largest bank where it's like for the the largest bank where it's like for the the largest bank where it's like now we we've attacked this customer now we we've attacked this customer now we we've attacked this customer segment that you haven't like succeeded segment that you haven't like succeeded segment that you haven't like succeeded with. We succeeded. You essentially, you with. We succeeded. You essentially, you with. We succeeded. You essentially, you know, rounded up a bunch of now know, rounded up a bunch of now know, rounded up a bunch of now customers for them. They want to buy customers for them. They want to buy customers for them. They want to buy you, right? So, you sell in what year? you, right? So, you sell in what year? you, right? So, you sell in what year? >> 2008. >> 2008. >> 2008. >> So, 2008 that insight then comes into >> So, 2008 that insight then comes into >> So, 2008 that insight then comes into play play play what is that 12 years later? You're what is that 12 years later? You're what is that 12 years later? You're starting to talk to Walmart in 2020. starting to talk to Walmart in 2020. starting to talk to Walmart in 2020. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. And that's the long game. That's the And that's the long game. That's the And that's the long game. That's the infinite game. And and by the way, you infinite game. And and by the way, you infinite game. And and by the way, you can tie every single one of our can tie every single one of our can tie every single one of our decisions in that we've made like were decisions in that we've made like were decisions in that we've made like were big decisions like that in in the real big decisions like that in in the real big decisions like that in in the real life to something that happened to me 20 life to something that happened to me 20 life to something that happened to me 20 years before. years before. years before. >> This is really important for especially >> This is really important for especially >> This is really important for especially for young entrepreneurs because you said for young entrepreneurs because you said for young entrepreneurs because you said earlier like there were there's just earlier like there were there's just earlier like there were there's just something wrong about, you know, like something wrong about, you know, like something wrong about, you know, like we're optimizing for just like start we're optimizing for just like start we're optimizing for just like start scale sell, right? scale sell, right? scale sell, right? >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Where it's like, you know, some of your >> Where it's like, you know, some of your >> Where it's like, you know, some of your partners you've been partners with for partners you've been partners with for partners you've been partners with for 20 years. 20 years. 20 years. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Some of the people you've backed you met >> Some of the people you've backed you met >> Some of the people you've backed you met Vlad at Robinhood when I don't even Vlad at Robinhood when I don't even Vlad at Robinhood when I don't even think they had a product yet. There was think they had a product yet. There was think they had a product yet. There was not a an app, right? not a an app, right? not a an app, right? >> No, there was they they were >> No, there was they they were >> No, there was they they were >> public facing app. >> public facing app. >> public facing app. >> It was >> It was >> It was >> You No, no customers. >> You No, no customers. >> You No, no customers. >> So, your relationship with them was for >> So, your relationship with them was for >> So, your relationship with them was for like 15 years. like 15 years. like 15 years. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Which is like I always say it's like >> Which is like I always say it's like >> Which is like I always say it's like when I when I've read, you know, all when I when I've read, you know, all when I when I've read, you know, all these biographies for the the podcast I these biographies for the the podcast I these biographies for the the podcast I have it's like just stay in the game have it's like just stay in the game have it's like just stay in the game long enough to get lucky. It's like so long enough to get lucky. It's like so long enough to get lucky. It's like so much of this stuff is not predictable. much of this stuff is not predictable. much of this stuff is not predictable. And I think that maximum is so just And I think that maximum is so just And I think that maximum is so just staying the game long enough to get staying the game long enough to get staying the game long enough to get lucky. So, you built a massive business lucky. So, you built a massive business lucky. So, you built a massive business 12 12 years after you built, you know, a 12 12 years after you built, you know, a 12 12 years after you built, you know, a very successful business but in South very successful business but in South very successful business but in South America. Now, think about the scale of America. Now, think about the scale of America. Now, think about the scale of Walmart. This is like not comparable to Walmart. This is like not comparable to Walmart. This is like not comparable to anything else. anything else. anything else. >> And that's the power of compounding. >> And that's the power of compounding. >> And that's the power of compounding. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And it's compounded relationships and >> And it's compounded relationships and >> And it's compounded relationships and ethics and work and principles and love ethics and work and principles and love ethics and work and principles and love and passion and time and just don't care and passion and time and just don't care and passion and time and just don't care about the winning or losing. Just let it about the winning or losing. Just let it about the winning or losing. Just let it be because the power of compounding is be because the power of compounding is be because the power of compounding is the most important equation on in in the most important equation on in in the most important equation on in in society. society. society. And everything on friendships, on And everything on friendships, on And everything on friendships, on family. Just be consistent, work every family. Just be consistent, work every family. Just be consistent, work every day and be there. day and be there. day and be there. >> is like a very Buffett-Munger kind of >> is like a very Buffett-Munger kind of >> is like a very Buffett-Munger kind of thing. Like thing. Like thing. Like Munger has a that line where he's like, Munger has a that line where he's like, Munger has a that line where he's like, you know, you need to learn the big the you know, you need to learn the big the you know, you need to learn the big the few big ideas in each discipline they few big ideas in each discipline they few big ideas in each discipline they carry most of the freight, I think is carry most of the freight, I think is carry most of the freight, I think is the way he describes that. And the way he describes that. And the way he describes that. And through all this reading I was like, my through all this reading I was like, my through all this reading I was like, my version of this like oh, time carries version of this like oh, time carries version of this like oh, time carries most of the weight. Like if you're in a most of the weight. Like if you're in a most of the weight. Like if you're in a good business, like just stay there and good business, like just stay there and good business, like just stay there and time will actually carry most of the time will actually carry most of the time will actually carry most of the weight to where you want to do. And so weight to where you want to do. And so weight to where you want to do. And so that leads if you're going to play the that leads if you're going to play the that leads if you're going to play the infinite game then and you want to do infinite game then and you want to do infinite game then and you want to do things over the long term, you have to things over the long term, you have to things over the long term, you have to protect your reputation, which is protect your reputation, which is protect your reputation, which is another thing that Buffett would repeat another thing that Buffett would repeat another thing that Buffett would repeat in the shareholder letters. Like hey, we in the shareholder letters. Like hey, we in the shareholder letters. Like hey, we can lose money. We can lose a lot of can lose money. We can lose a lot of can lose money. We can lose a lot of money, actually. We can't lose a shred money, actually. We can't lose a shred money, actually. We can't lose a shred of reputation. I want to know how you of reputation. I want to know how you of reputation. I want to know how you think about reputation and then I want think about reputation and then I want think about reputation and then I want to know and then I'll talk about why to know and then I'll talk about why to know and then I'll talk about why it's so important and how it led me to it's so important and how it led me to it's so important and how it led me to you. you. you. >> I started to go to >> I started to go to >> I started to go to the Berkshire Hathaway meetings when I the Berkshire Hathaway meetings when I the Berkshire Hathaway meetings when I was 18. was 18. was 18. And back then they were much smaller And back then they were much smaller And back then they were much smaller than what a Friday afternoon at a than what a Friday afternoon at a than what a Friday afternoon at a Holiday Inn, couple hundred people. Holiday Inn, couple hundred people. Holiday Inn, couple hundred people. And as soon as I moved to the to the And as soon as I moved to the to the And as soon as I moved to the to the bigger convention center a few years bigger convention center a few years bigger convention center a few years later, they had this movie clip playing later, they had this movie clip playing later, they had this movie clip playing in in the beginning of the annual in in the beginning of the annual in in the beginning of the annual meeting with a bunch of TV commercials meeting with a bunch of TV commercials meeting with a bunch of TV commercials or or Buffett interviews over the years. or or Buffett interviews over the years. or or Buffett interviews over the years. And every time since I was a kid young And every time since I was a kid young And every time since I was a kid young that age, they were playing the that age, they were playing the that age, they were playing the Buffett getting deposed when he was the Buffett getting deposed when he was the Buffett getting deposed when he was the chairman of Solomon Brothers chairman of Solomon Brothers chairman of Solomon Brothers saying that line that you just said. saying that line that you just said. saying that line that you just said. >> It got stuck in my in my brain. So wait, >> It got stuck in my in my brain. So wait, >> It got stuck in my in my brain. So wait, they replayed it every annual meeting? they replayed it every annual meeting? they replayed it every annual meeting? >> meeting. It was there that deposition >> meeting. It was there that deposition >> meeting. It was there that deposition that was that he said that line on a that was that he said that line on a that was that he said that line on a deposition deposition deposition at Congress for something that Solomon at Congress for something that Solomon at Congress for something that Solomon Brothers was doing with the Treasuries Brothers was doing with the Treasuries Brothers was doing with the Treasuries arbitraging in or taking advantage of arbitraging in or taking advantage of arbitraging in or taking advantage of the treasury issuing market. Yeah. the treasury issuing market. Yeah. the treasury issuing market. Yeah. And they played it every single year. And they played it every single year. And they played it every single year. And I remember it every single year. And I remember it every single year. And I remember it every single year. And And And part of the reasons why part of the reasons why part of the reasons why I I wanted to I I wanted to I I wanted to leave that life is because it it was leave that life is because it it was leave that life is because it it was natural to me. It was the way you wanted natural to me. It was the way you wanted natural to me. It was the way you wanted to live life. So yes, reputation matters to live life. So yes, reputation matters to live life. So yes, reputation matters more than anything. more than anything. more than anything. >> There's a handful of people that I >> There's a handful of people that I >> There's a handful of people that I really trust and admire. And then the really trust and admire. And then the really trust and admire. And then the people I trust and admire I wanted to people I trust and admire I wanted to people I trust and admire I wanted to know who they trust and admire. And I know who they trust and admire. And I know who they trust and admire. And I had a decision I had to make and I had a decision I had to make and I had a decision I had to make and I wasn't sure how to make it. Um it was wasn't sure how to make it. Um it was wasn't sure how to make it. Um it was there was a lot of uncertainty. I didn't there was a lot of uncertainty. I didn't there was a lot of uncertainty. I didn't have the information I needed. And have the information I needed. And have the information I needed. And realized that you were actually in realized that you were actually in realized that you were actually in possession of this information. We won't possession of this information. We won't possession of this information. We won't talk about like what the details of talk about like what the details of talk about like what the details of this. And I actually never almost ever this. And I actually never almost ever this. And I actually never almost ever asked to meet people. And I asked two asked to meet people. And I asked two asked to meet people. And I asked two separate people. I was like, "Do you separate people. I was like, "Do you separate people. I was like, "Do you mind making this like introduction for mind making this like introduction for mind making this like introduction for me?" And then the first time we met, we me?" And then the first time we met, we me?" And then the first time we met, we actually wanted up talking for like actually wanted up talking for like actually wanted up talking for like several hours. several hours. several hours. And then we like became like fast And then we like became like fast And then we like became like fast friends. Yeah. friends. Yeah. friends. Yeah. >> But I made a big decision in my career >> But I made a big decision in my career >> But I made a big decision in my career based on how fantastic your reputation based on how fantastic your reputation based on how fantastic your reputation was. And so therefore almost like uh was. And so therefore almost like uh was. And so therefore almost like uh Charlie Munger has a great line where Charlie Munger has a great line where Charlie Munger has a great line where like trust is one of the greatest like trust is one of the greatest like trust is one of the greatest economic forces in the world. economic forces in the world. economic forces in the world. And it's like the level of trust that And it's like the level of trust that And it's like the level of trust that you have built up over you have built up over you have built up over excessive long time with people I trust excessive long time with people I trust excessive long time with people I trust made me be able to build a relationship made me be able to build a relationship made me be able to build a relationship and trust your judgment really fast that and trust your judgment really fast that and trust your judgment really fast that I could make a decision based on your I could make a decision based on your I could make a decision based on your reputation. And I think this is super reputation. And I think this is super reputation. And I think this is super important. It's also something that important. It's also something that important. It's also something that comes up over and over again. Like um I comes up over and over again. Like um I comes up over and over again. Like um I I did this episode I did this episode I did this episode on Jensen. There's this book called The on Jensen. There's this book called The on Jensen. There's this book called The Nvidia Way, which is kind of like half Nvidia Way, which is kind of like half Nvidia Way, which is kind of like half biography of Jensen, half company biography of Jensen, half company biography of Jensen, half company history. And it talks about he pitched history. And it talks about he pitched history. And it talks about he pitched Don Valentine. Don Valentine is still Don Valentine. Don Valentine is still Don Valentine. Don Valentine is still alive, still making investment decisions alive, still making investment decisions alive, still making investment decisions at Sequoia. And Don's like, "That was at Sequoia. And Don's like, "That was at Sequoia. And Don's like, "That was the shittiest pitch I've ever heard. I'm the shittiest pitch I've ever heard. I'm the shittiest pitch I've ever heard. I'm still going to give you money because still going to give you money because still going to give you money because your reputation precedes you and it's so your reputation precedes you and it's so your reputation precedes you and it's so excellent. So valuable." excellent. So valuable." excellent. So valuable." >> It is the most valuable asset. It's the >> It is the most valuable asset. It's the >> It is the most valuable asset. It's the only asset we have. only asset we have. only asset we have. It's a reputation. Everything else can It's a reputation. Everything else can It's a reputation. Everything else can come and go, but that's the one thing come and go, but that's the one thing come and go, but that's the one thing that we have that it will always stick that we have that it will always stick that we have that it will always stick to us even when we're dead. to us even when we're dead. to us even when we're dead. >> You know who also shaped my thinking on >> You know who also shaped my thinking on >> You know who also shaped my thinking on this? It's like Have you ever heard this? It's like Have you ever heard this? It's like Have you ever heard Palmer Lucky talk about reputation? Have Palmer Lucky talk about reputation? Have Palmer Lucky talk about reputation? Have you? you? you? >> No, I haven't heard him talk about >> No, I haven't heard him talk about >> No, I haven't heard him talk about >> So, he says the exact same thing. He's >> So, he says the exact same thing. He's >> So, he says the exact same thing. He's like, "Anytime he thinks this idea where like, "Anytime he thinks this idea where like, "Anytime he thinks this idea where like if people try to destroy like if people try to destroy like if people try to destroy reputation, reputation, reputation, uh like you should just, you know, rise uh like you should just, you know, rise uh like you should just, you know, rise above the fray." He's like, "No, this is above the fray." He's like, "No, this is above the fray." He's like, "No, this is [ __ ] because you have to fight back [ __ ] because you have to fight back [ __ ] because you have to fight back because the problem is because the problem is because the problem is it forecloses opportunities. If this it forecloses opportunities. If this it forecloses opportunities. If this person's damaging your reputation and person's damaging your reputation and person's damaging your reputation and it's not true, it's going to foreclose it's not true, it's going to foreclose it's not true, it's going to foreclose future opportunities." And it's not like future opportunities." And it's not like future opportunities." And it's not like if somebody And his whole point is like, if somebody And his whole point is like, if somebody And his whole point is like, "This is invisible." And I thought it "This is invisible." And I thought it "This is invisible." And I thought it was really interesting insight. He's was really interesting insight. He's was really interesting insight. He's like, "If so if somebody I let somebody like, "If so if somebody I let somebody like, "If so if somebody I let somebody destroy my reputation in in unfairly and destroy my reputation in in unfairly and destroy my reputation in in unfairly and 2 years later I ask for a meeting with 2 years later I ask for a meeting with 2 years later I ask for a meeting with the guy who took that story and believes the guy who took that story and believes the guy who took that story and believes it, he's not going to tell me I'm not it, he's not going to tell me I'm not it, he's not going to tell me I'm not taking the meeting cuz your reputation taking the meeting cuz your reputation taking the meeting cuz your reputation sucks." sucks." sucks." >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> He's going to make up some other story. >> He's going to make up some other story. >> He's going to make up some other story. So, he's like, "You have to protect it So, he's like, "You have to protect it So, he's like, "You have to protect it and then fight against it." I thought it and then fight against it." I thought it and then fight against it." I thought it was interesting. It's very like a Ben was interesting. It's very like a Ben was interesting. It's very like a Ben Franklin kind of idea because Franklin Franklin kind of idea because Franklin Franklin kind of idea because Franklin would nurture and then also protect and would nurture and then also protect and would nurture and then also protect and fight back against his reputation 250 fight back against his reputation 250 fight back against his reputation 250 years ago. It's very fascinating. years ago. It's very fascinating. years ago. It's very fascinating. >> I love it. I didn't know that about Ben >> I love it. I didn't know that about Ben >> I love it. I didn't know that about Ben Franklin. I'm going to read more about Franklin. I'm going to read more about Franklin. I'm going to read more about that. that. that. >> So, I told you right before we started >> So, I told you right before we started >> So, I told you right before we started recording that I got the art piece that recording that I got the art piece that recording that I got the art piece that I ordered at Node. I ordered at Node. I ordered at Node. I was I don't even know how to describe I was I don't even know how to describe I was I don't even know how to describe the fact like I could spend about an the fact like I could spend about an the fact like I could spend about an hour there with you. Can you just hour there with you. Can you just hour there with you. Can you just describe what the hell Node is and why describe what the hell Node is and why describe what the hell Node is and why you're doing it? you're doing it? you're doing it? >> Yes. So, I think it's in the spirit of >> Yes. So, I think it's in the spirit of >> Yes. So, I think it's in the spirit of being a rebel. Um so, my wife and I we being a rebel. Um so, my wife and I we being a rebel. Um so, my wife and I we love art. We find that art is beautiful love art. We find that art is beautiful love art. We find that art is beautiful and when you find stuff that speaks to and when you find stuff that speaks to and when you find stuff that speaks to you, it has an immense value. you, it has an immense value. you, it has an immense value. It's been around all of us since the It's been around all of us since the It's been around all of us since the caves, right? It's it's always been caves, right? It's it's always been caves, right? It's it's always been there. there. there. And 5 years ago we And 5 years ago we And 5 years ago we stumbled upon digital art for the first stumbled upon digital art for the first stumbled upon digital art for the first time. I was on Twitter time. I was on Twitter time. I was on Twitter scrolling and I saw an art piece that scrolling and I saw an art piece that scrolling and I saw an art piece that looked something very similar to a looked something very similar to a looked something very similar to a physical art piece we had from the '70s. physical art piece we had from the '70s. physical art piece we had from the '70s. And then And then And then we got into it and started to find other we got into it and started to find other we got into it and started to find other artists in digital art that were doing artists in digital art that were doing artists in digital art that were doing beautiful stuff that matched something beautiful stuff that matched something beautiful stuff that matched something beautiful in history. So, we started to beautiful in history. So, we started to beautiful in history. So, we started to pair them together. pair them together. pair them together. And that journey took us And that journey took us And that journey took us like any journey, to get to know the like any journey, to get to know the like any journey, to get to know the artists. Because what's the difference artists. Because what's the difference artists. Because what's the difference of these artists? They're alive. of these artists? They're alive. of these artists? They're alive. And and they're all here, and they're And and they're all here, and they're And and they're all here, and they're all using the all study computer science all using the all study computer science all using the all study computer science one way or the other, and they just one way or the other, and they just one way or the other, and they just decided to be artists and tell a story decided to be artists and tell a story decided to be artists and tell a story in a different way. in a different way. in a different way. Once you start to meet them, Once you start to meet them, Once you start to meet them, they were rebels they were rebels they were rebels in the in the in the complete expression of the word, the complete expression of the word, the complete expression of the word, the same way we were describing some of the same way we were describing some of the same way we were describing some of the rebels in in companies. Like think about rebels in in companies. Like think about rebels in in companies. Like think about right now we're running a show on right now we're running a show on right now we're running a show on people. people. people. >> That's the one I saw. >> That's the one I saw. >> That's the one I saw. >> That's the one you saw. So, think about >> That's the one you saw. So, think about >> That's the one you saw. So, think about people. people. people. Think about an entrepreneur who decided Think about an entrepreneur who decided Think about an entrepreneur who decided for 5,000 days for 5,000 days for 5,000 days to do an art piece every single day, to do an art piece every single day, to do an art piece every single day, posted online so he can posted online so he can posted online so he can only get better. only get better. only get better. His goal was he read a book that said, His goal was he read a book that said, His goal was he read a book that said, "If you do something every day, "If you do something every day, "If you do something every day, you will only get better at it." you will only get better at it." you will only get better at it." And he started in 2007 And he started in 2007 And he started in 2007 sketching. sketching. sketching. 2011 started to use Photoshop. 2014 2011 started to use Photoshop. 2014 2011 started to use Photoshop. 2014 Cinema 4D. And so the software evolved. Cinema 4D. And so the software evolved. Cinema 4D. And so the software evolved. And every single day posted of image And every single day posted of image And every single day posted of image online that no one bought. online that no one bought. online that no one bought. People paid attention and just made fun People paid attention and just made fun People paid attention and just made fun of it or congratulated him or or of it or congratulated him or or of it or congratulated him or or jumped against it until in '21 he sells jumped against it until in '21 he sells jumped against it until in '21 he sells the first 5,000 days. What is that? 14 the first 5,000 days. What is that? 14 the first 5,000 days. What is that? 14 years? years? years? For 69 million dollars. For 69 million dollars. For 69 million dollars. And suddenly, it's like an IPO moment. And suddenly, it's like an IPO moment. And suddenly, it's like an IPO moment. No one pays attention for a long time. No one pays attention for a long time. No one pays attention for a long time. You sell it. What does an a real rebel You sell it. What does an a real rebel You sell it. What does an a real rebel do? do? do? He said, "Fuck it. We're going to double He said, "Fuck it. We're going to double He said, "Fuck it. We're going to double down. I'm going to build a studio. I'm down. I'm going to build a studio. I'm down. I'm going to build a studio. I'm going to start building a lot more stuff going to start building a lot more stuff going to start building a lot more stuff that I couldn't do before." that I couldn't do before." that I couldn't do before." And now he's one of the most prolific And now he's one of the most prolific And now he's one of the most prolific artists alive. artists alive. artists alive. All he does his work is digital. All he does his work is digital. All he does his work is digital. And he's not the only one. People see And he's not the only one. People see And he's not the only one. People see CryptoPunks and they see CryptoPunks and they see CryptoPunks and they see a a a a a a Actually, I see a movement. I see a Actually, I see a movement. I see a Actually, I see a movement. I see a cultural artifact. The first art on cultural artifact. The first art on cultural artifact. The first art on chain ever created and it happens to be chain ever created and it happens to be chain ever created and it happens to be portraits. portraits. portraits. Guess what? Every single art movement in Guess what? Every single art movement in Guess what? Every single art movement in history starts with portraits. They history starts with portraits. They history starts with portraits. They always evolve the portrait. So, the always evolve the portrait. So, the always evolve the portrait. So, the story is we went to the museums and we story is we went to the museums and we story is we went to the museums and we said, "This art should be seen." Because said, "This art should be seen." Because said, "This art should be seen." Because at home, we post we get we put it up on at home, we post we get we put it up on at home, we post we get we put it up on our house and all my kids when they were our house and all my kids when they were our house and all my kids when they were teenagers and brother friends, guess teenagers and brother friends, guess teenagers and brother friends, guess where they their attention went. where they their attention went. where they their attention went. >> Not art you have it hanging on the >> Not art you have it hanging on the >> Not art you have it hanging on the walls. walls. walls. >> It went to this. >> It went to this. >> It went to this. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> 15, 20 minutes in front of it, talking >> 15, 20 minutes in front of it, talking >> 15, 20 minutes in front of it, talking to it, interacting, asking questions to it, interacting, asking questions to it, interacting, asking questions they wanted to understand. they wanted to understand. they wanted to understand. We go to the museums and they said, We go to the museums and they said, We go to the museums and they said, "Yes, we can do this 2028, 5 years from "Yes, we can do this 2028, 5 years from "Yes, we can do this 2028, 5 years from now, 4 years from now and we'll have to now, 4 years from now and we'll have to now, 4 years from now and we'll have to find a curator who's going to curate find a curator who's going to curate find a curator who's going to curate what the artist wants to do." And my what the artist wants to do." And my what the artist wants to do." And my wife and I look at each other and said, wife and I look at each other and said, wife and I look at each other and said, "No [ __ ] way. "No [ __ ] way. "No [ __ ] way. This needs to happen today." This needs to happen today." This needs to happen today." So, Node is the first digital art studio So, Node is the first digital art studio So, Node is the first digital art studio designed for digital artists. designed for digital artists. designed for digital artists. It is a space where the artist is his It is a space where the artist is his It is a space where the artist is his own curator own curator own curator because that's what rebels do. You because that's what rebels do. You because that's what rebels do. You you decide how you want to show your you decide how you want to show your you decide how you want to show your art. You don't let somebody else tell art. You don't let somebody else tell art. You don't let somebody else tell you how you're going to put your art. you how you're going to put your art. you how you're going to put your art. And it's a place where you come and you And it's a place where you come and you And it's a place where you come and you get get get your hands-on your hands-on your hands-on with the art that speaks to the future. with the art that speaks to the future. with the art that speaks to the future. And we put this place in downtown Palo And we put this place in downtown Palo And we put this place in downtown Palo Alto for a particular reason. Alto for a particular reason. Alto for a particular reason. Because Silicon Valley needs Because Silicon Valley needs Because Silicon Valley needs creativity. We need to bring it back. creativity. We need to bring it back. creativity. We need to bring it back. So, our contribution to society is So, our contribution to society is So, our contribution to society is putting it in a place where people can putting it in a place where people can putting it in a place where people can actually walk in and see it. actually walk in and see it. actually walk in and see it. And we've opened it 5 months ago. And we've opened it 5 months ago. And we've opened it 5 months ago. We had close to 60,000 people show up We had close to 60,000 people show up We had close to 60,000 people show up already. already. already. Every weekend we're breaking records. Every weekend we're breaking records. Every weekend we're breaking records. It's free. It's open. It's free. It's open. It's free. It's open. And people are interacting and the most And people are interacting and the most And people are interacting and the most beautiful things, beautiful things, beautiful things, kids are bringing their parents. kids are bringing their parents. kids are bringing their parents. So, you tell me the last time you went So, you tell me the last time you went So, you tell me the last time you went to a museum where the kids are telling to a museum where the kids are telling to a museum where the kids are telling >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> "Dad, let's go in." >> "Dad, let's go in." >> "Dad, let's go in." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Exactly. So, that is the difference. So, >> Exactly. So, that is the difference. So, >> Exactly. So, that is the difference. So, I think we need it going back to beauty, I think we need it going back to beauty, I think we need it going back to beauty, to taste, to creating authentic stuff. to taste, to creating authentic stuff. to taste, to creating authentic stuff. And these artists are the most authentic And these artists are the most authentic And these artists are the most authentic people right now using digital tools. people right now using digital tools. people right now using digital tools. So, let's So, let's So, let's show them, let people interact with show them, let people interact with show them, let people interact with them, and let that be them, and let that be them, and let that be the driver for entrepreneurs the driver for entrepreneurs the driver for entrepreneurs to use it in their own practices. to use it in their own practices. to use it in their own practices. >> But this is what I meant about like >> But this is what I meant about like >> But this is what I meant about like you're way more entrepreneur than you you're way more entrepreneur than you you're way more entrepreneur than you are investor because you just like are investor because you just like are investor because you just like like when you when you start a bank for like when you when you start a bank for like when you when you start a bank for the unbanked in Brazil, you're like, the unbanked in Brazil, you're like, the unbanked in Brazil, you're like, "Well, I'm not going to open up "Well, I'm not going to open up "Well, I'm not going to open up branches. I'm going like, "What branches. I'm going like, "What branches. I'm going like, "What opportunity? What's the white space that opportunity? What's the white space that opportunity? What's the white space that these incumbents are not I'm a rebel. these incumbents are not I'm a rebel. these incumbents are not I'm a rebel. What is the white space that these What is the white space that these What is the white space that these incumbents are not attacking?" Well, you incumbents are not attacking?" Well, you incumbents are not attacking?" Well, you just said like the museums are like they just said like the museums are like they just said like the museums are like they they don't even have the infrastructure they don't even have the infrastructure they don't even have the infrastructure to to display digital art. And like me I to to display digital art. And like me I to to display digital art. And like me I went to Node with you. Like the walls went to Node with you. Like the walls went to Node with you. Like the walls are like customizable. The next How the are like customizable. The next How the are like customizable. The next How the people's in there for what? Like 2 people's in there for what? Like 2 people's in there for what? Like 2 months? Something like that? Yeah, and months? Something like that? Yeah, and months? Something like that? Yeah, and then the next one comes in. The then the next one comes in. The then the next one comes in. The infrastructure is still there. But now infrastructure is still there. But now infrastructure is still there. But now the artist gets to essentially use the the artist gets to essentially use the the artist gets to essentially use the infrastructure as a canvas for his for infrastructure as a canvas for his for infrastructure as a canvas for his for his his or her art. his his or her art. his his or her art. >> We think the world will have a lot of >> We think the world will have a lot of >> We think the world will have a lot of these places. Museums will change. They these places. Museums will change. They these places. Museums will change. They will evolve. It will take a while. will evolve. It will take a while. will evolve. It will take a while. >> The location that you picked speaks to >> The location that you picked speaks to >> The location that you picked speaks to again the the like you're kind of just again the the like you're kind of just again the the like you're kind of just identifying what's the way they did it identifying what's the way they did it identifying what's the way they did it and like what's the way I should do it and like what's the way I should do it and like what's the way I should do it now. We're like you can walk into it. now. We're like you can walk into it. now. We're like you can walk into it. It's like in a very like small downtown It's like in a very like small downtown It's like in a very like small downtown area. It's not it's not like a area. It's not it's not like a area. It's not it's not like a destination in and of itself. It's destination in and of itself. It's destination in and of itself. It's something you could just it's like part something you could just it's like part something you could just it's like part of the neighborhood if that makes any of the neighborhood if that makes any of the neighborhood if that makes any sense. sense. sense. >> If you read history which is part of the >> If you read history which is part of the >> If you read history which is part of the beauty of beauty of beauty of playing infinite games where you have to playing infinite games where you have to playing infinite games where you have to live in the future but also understand live in the future but also understand live in the future but also understand the past, the past, the past, this is not very different than what this is not very different than what this is not very different than what happened in Paris in the in with the happened in Paris in the in with the happened in Paris in the in with the rebels in in their art movement when rebels in in their art movement when rebels in in their art movement when they were not accepted in the museums. they were not accepted in the museums. they were not accepted in the museums. And this is how the impressionism came And this is how the impressionism came And this is how the impressionism came to be. And all the art that was a to be. And all the art that was a to be. And all the art that was a revolution that changed the way we look revolution that changed the way we look revolution that changed the way we look at art in the last 100 years. We're at art in the last 100 years. We're at art in the last 100 years. We're living through that same moment. living through that same moment. living through that same moment. Funny enough, it's not in Paris. Funny enough, it's not in Paris. Funny enough, it's not in Paris. Maybe it started in Palo Alto. Maybe it started in Palo Alto. Maybe it started in Palo Alto. >> And so you look at the the first node in >> And so you look at the the first node in >> And so you look at the the first node in Palo Alto almost like a prototype. Palo Alto almost like a prototype. Palo Alto almost like a prototype. >> Yes, because the name node is meant to >> Yes, because the name node is meant to >> Yes, because the name node is meant to be a node in the network. So, we will we be a node in the network. So, we will we be a node in the network. So, we will we will be learning here for the next year will be learning here for the next year will be learning here for the next year to to to perfection perfection perfection uh our technology, improve our our UIs. uh our technology, improve our our UIs. uh our technology, improve our our UIs. There's a bunch of engineers working at There's a bunch of engineers working at There's a bunch of engineers working at this foundation with engineers. Like this foundation with engineers. Like this foundation with engineers. Like think of how different it is to think of how different it is to think of how different it is to traditional art and then expand it and traditional art and then expand it and traditional art and then expand it and open in many many more other places. open in many many more other places. open in many many more other places. >> Another thing that I want to talk to you >> Another thing that I want to talk to you >> Another thing that I want to talk to you about, about, about, what's with your fascination with what's with your fascination with what's with your fascination with rebels? It's all over your website. rebels? It's all over your website. rebels? It's all over your website. People who know you talk about this all People who know you talk about this all People who know you talk about this all the time. the time. the time. >> Well, first, I must start with >> Well, first, I must start with >> Well, first, I must start with generation, right? And generation, right? And generation, right? And uh I grew up with Star Wars. I'm a big uh I grew up with Star Wars. I'm a big uh I grew up with Star Wars. I'm a big fan of Star Wars. fan of Star Wars. fan of Star Wars. And to me, growing up in Venezuela, you And to me, growing up in Venezuela, you And to me, growing up in Venezuela, you the only way to survive in that the only way to survive in that the only way to survive in that environment is you have to be a rebel. environment is you have to be a rebel. environment is you have to be a rebel. The system, the the dark side was all The system, the the dark side was all The system, the the dark side was all over, the chaos was present. over, the chaos was present. over, the chaos was present. Uh you had to Uh you had to Uh you had to raise above above that. And the rebel raise above above that. And the rebel raise above above that. And the rebel mindset is one where you know mindset is one where you know mindset is one where you know authentically and genuinely that authentically and genuinely that authentically and genuinely that something can be better. something can be better. something can be better. And you're willing to give your life for And you're willing to give your life for And you're willing to give your life for it. To me, being a rebel is just a way it. To me, being a rebel is just a way it. To me, being a rebel is just a way of being. It's a way of looking at the of being. It's a way of looking at the of being. It's a way of looking at the world. And when you when you see world. And when you when you see world. And when you when you see something, you can always look at it and something, you can always look at it and something, you can always look at it and accept how do you make it better? How do accept how do you make it better? How do accept how do you make it better? How do you make it more beautiful? How can What you make it more beautiful? How can What you make it more beautiful? How can What what's missing? Like just that mindset what's missing? Like just that mindset what's missing? Like just that mindset of always being willing of always being willing of always being willing to know that better means it can still to know that better means it can still to know that better means it can still be better. be better. be better. >> I mean, just a 17-year-old starting a >> I mean, just a 17-year-old starting a >> I mean, just a 17-year-old starting a company. company. company. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> That >> That >> That would lead me to believe that you had would lead me to believe that you had would lead me to believe that you had this like rebel you know, you were this like rebel you know, you were this like rebel you know, you were essentially a born rebel. essentially a born rebel. essentially a born rebel. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> How did you apply that? Cuz >> How did you apply that? Cuz >> How did you apply that? Cuz people people people reference you as like one of the reference you as like one of the reference you as like one of the greatest like venture capitalists. I'm greatest like venture capitalists. I'm greatest like venture capitalists. I'm like, that's not how I think of Mickey. like, that's not how I think of Mickey. like, that's not how I think of Mickey. I don't think of him as like a venture I don't think of him as like a venture I don't think of him as like a venture capitalist. So like, when you're capitalist. So like, when you're capitalist. So like, when you're building Ribbit, building Ribbit, building Ribbit, how did you apply like your rebel like how did you apply like your rebel like how did you apply like your rebel like your inherent rebel nature to your your inherent rebel nature to your your inherent rebel nature to your essentially almost like you're almost essentially almost like you're almost essentially almost like you're almost like an artist in the sense of like this like an artist in the sense of like this like an artist in the sense of like this is the canvas that I'm building. This is is the canvas that I'm building. This is is the canvas that I'm building. This is how you think I should do it, but this how you think I should do it, but this how you think I should do it, but this is how I'm going to do it. How did you is how I'm going to do it. How did you is how I'm going to do it. How did you think about it when you started it? think about it when you started it? think about it when you started it? >> Before I end up being labeled as a >> Before I end up being labeled as a >> Before I end up being labeled as a particular but first I hate labels and particular but first I hate labels and particular but first I hate labels and second I will be very depressed because second I will be very depressed because second I will be very depressed because that's not the label that's not the label that's not the label I want no labels. I want no labels. I want no labels. All I want in my tombstone is to say he All I want in my tombstone is to say he All I want in my tombstone is to say he was a rebel. was a rebel. was a rebel. That's all I want to be said there. That's all I want to be said there. That's all I want to be said there. And that will say everything about me. And that will say everything about me. And that will say everything about me. The way I raise my kids, the way my The way I raise my kids, the way my The way I raise my kids, the way my relationship with my wife, the way I I relationship with my wife, the way I I relationship with my wife, the way I I treat my friends, the way I make treat my friends, the way I make treat my friends, the way I make business decisions, the way I change my business decisions, the way I change my business decisions, the way I change my mind. I'm willing to change my mind if I mind. I'm willing to change my mind if I mind. I'm willing to change my mind if I learn something that is different. learn something that is different. learn something that is different. That's a rebel mindset. Everything that That's a rebel mindset. Everything that That's a rebel mindset. Everything that is the opposite is a mindset that is the opposite is a mindset that is the opposite is a mindset that I know too well. My kids are perfect. I know too well. My kids are perfect. I know too well. My kids are perfect. I'm the best at what I do and I run away I'm the best at what I do and I run away I'm the best at what I do and I run away from any of those things. Actually, I I from any of those things. Actually, I I from any of those things. Actually, I I find that the rebel mindset is one that find that the rebel mindset is one that find that the rebel mindset is one that you are always asking questions. You're you are always asking questions. You're you are always asking questions. You're a rebel. You are non-stop asking a rebel. You are non-stop asking a rebel. You are non-stop asking questions. You want to learn and you questions. You want to learn and you questions. You want to learn and you want to keep but you and I know a lot of want to keep but you and I know a lot of want to keep but you and I know a lot of people that get to a point in life when people that get to a point in life when people that get to a point in life when they stop to ask questions and they they stop to ask questions and they they stop to ask questions and they start to preach. start to preach. start to preach. That's past the rebel time. That's past the rebel time. That's past the rebel time. And everybody has that breaking point And everybody has that breaking point And everybody has that breaking point somewhere in their lives. somewhere in their lives. somewhere in their lives. I want that to be the last day of my I want that to be the last day of my I want that to be the last day of my life. life. life. So I need to live by that principle on So I need to live by that principle on So I need to live by that principle on everything that I do. everything that I do. everything that I do. On every behavior on on like I'm On every behavior on on like I'm On every behavior on on like I'm rebelling now against the traditional rebelling now against the traditional rebelling now against the traditional art world. I'm trying, you know, to art world. I'm trying, you know, to art world. I'm trying, you know, to allow artists to show art in a different allow artists to show art in a different allow artists to show art in a different way. Uh we rebel and rivet the way we way. Uh we rebel and rivet the way we way. Uh we rebel and rivet the way we design it. We were design it. We were design it. We were People were asking about what are you? People were asking about what are you? People were asking about what are you? Are you a venture guy? Are you an early Are you a venture guy? Are you an early Are you a venture guy? Are you an early stage guy? I'm like, yes. Are you a late stage guy? I'm like, yes. Are you a late stage guy? I'm like, yes. Are you a late stage guy? Yes. Are you a fintech guy? stage guy? Yes. Are you a fintech guy? stage guy? Yes. Are you a fintech guy? Yes, but are you doing now Yes, but are you doing now Yes, but are you doing now uh defense or yes? Like yes, what's uh defense or yes? Like yes, what's uh defense or yes? Like yes, what's wrong? Like I'm not going to let anyone wrong? Like I'm not going to let anyone wrong? Like I'm not going to let anyone allow that. That's is the rebel mindset. allow that. That's is the rebel mindset. allow that. That's is the rebel mindset. >> You are a founder but you think so much >> You are a founder but you think so much >> You are a founder but you think so much like a founder. So like this decision in like a founder. So like this decision in like a founder. So like this decision in 2012 to start an investment firm, like 2012 to start an investment firm, like 2012 to start an investment firm, like why? why? why? >> I don't think of it as an investment >> I don't think of it as an investment >> I don't think of it as an investment firm. firm. firm. >> Okay, you have to tell you have to say >> Okay, you have to tell you have to say >> Okay, you have to tell you have to say more about this. more about this. more about this. >> To me it's a startup, it's a company. >> To me it's a startup, it's a company. >> To me it's a startup, it's a company. And we build our own technology stack, And we build our own technology stack, And we build our own technology stack, and we have a small team, and we and we have a small team, and we and we have a small team, and we consider ourselves our rebels, and our consider ourselves our rebels, and our consider ourselves our rebels, and our meetings are called Tatooine, and we meetings are called Tatooine, and we meetings are called Tatooine, and we have Jedis, and we we have have Jedis, and we we have have Jedis, and we we have >> I didn't know this. >> I didn't know this. >> I didn't know this. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Oh, so you're really into Star Wars. >> Oh, so you're really into Star Wars. >> Oh, so you're really into Star Wars. >> Oh, yes, completely. And and >> Oh, yes, completely. And and >> Oh, yes, completely. And and >> Are you backing Jedis? Do you have >> Are you backing Jedis? Do you have >> Are you backing Jedis? Do you have Jedis? Jedis? Jedis? >> We we back Jedis. >> We we back Jedis. >> We we back Jedis. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And and we have Wookiees, and we have >> And and we have Wookiees, and we have >> And and we have Wookiees, and we have Jedis. We have the whole thematic truly Jedis. We have the whole thematic truly Jedis. We have the whole thematic truly alive in the way we think because alive in the way we think because alive in the way we think because it has to be authentic. it has to be authentic. it has to be authentic. And people that work with us, and really And people that work with us, and really And people that work with us, and really the whole team, feels that ownership, the whole team, feels that ownership, the whole team, feels that ownership, that teamwork. There's investment firms that teamwork. There's investment firms that teamwork. There's investment firms are very siloed in many ways, are very siloed in many ways, are very siloed in many ways, and I don't love that. We want to and I don't love that. We want to and I don't love that. We want to over-communicate even internally. Like, over-communicate even internally. Like, over-communicate even internally. Like, right now the entire team knows that right now the entire team knows that right now the entire team knows that we're sitting together. Everybody can we're sitting together. Everybody can we're sitting together. Everybody can see my calendar and my inbox. They can see my calendar and my inbox. They can see my calendar and my inbox. They can see my emails, and I can see anybody's see my emails, and I can see anybody's see my emails, and I can see anybody's emails. emails. emails. We share all information so we can We share all information so we can We share all information so we can actually become better as a team. actually become better as a team. actually become better as a team. That mindset is very rebel in this That mindset is very rebel in this That mindset is very rebel in this environment. And and and how we make environment. And and and how we make environment. And and and how we make decisions. We don't make individual decisions. We don't make individual decisions. We don't make individual decisions, we make group decisions. decisions, we make group decisions. decisions, we make group decisions. And there's no like, somebody asked, And there's no like, somebody asked, And there's no like, somebody asked, "Who's the partner responsible for that "Who's the partner responsible for that "Who's the partner responsible for that company?" It's like, "What partner?" company?" It's like, "What partner?" company?" It's like, "What partner?" And you ask the founders, they say, "I And you ask the founders, they say, "I And you ask the founders, they say, "I don't know. I call Mickey for something, don't know. I call Mickey for something, don't know. I call Mickey for something, I call Nick for something, I call Justin I call Nick for something, I call Justin I call Nick for something, I call Justin for something. We are just a team that for something. We are just a team that for something. We are just a team that works together in in in very different works together in in in very different works together in in in very different ways. So, that is the joy of going to ways. So, that is the joy of going to ways. So, that is the joy of going to the office every day. I love being there the office every day. I love being there the office every day. I love being there and spending time with the team because and spending time with the team because and spending time with the team because we just have fun together. we just have fun together. we just have fun together. >> What was the insight though that caused >> What was the insight though that caused >> What was the insight though that caused you to do this instead of because you you to do this instead of because you you to do this instead of because you started how many companies before this? started how many companies before this? started how many companies before this? This is your sixth company? This is your sixth company? This is your sixth company? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Something like that. So, like, but your >> Something like that. So, like, but your >> Something like that. So, like, but your sixth company looks vastly different sixth company looks vastly different sixth company looks vastly different from your first five, correct? from your first five, correct? from your first five, correct? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, like, what was the insight between >> So, like, what was the insight between >> So, like, what was the insight between five and six though? five and six though? five and six though? >> I had to in the infinite game, I had >> I had to in the infinite game, I had >> I had to in the infinite game, I had just had to learn how to do it right. just had to learn how to do it right. just had to learn how to do it right. And this time I do it right because I And this time I do it right because I And this time I do it right because I consider myself, even though consider myself, even though consider myself, even though they were successful and they created a they were successful and they created a they were successful and they created a lot of impact and changed a lot people's lot of impact and changed a lot people's lot of impact and changed a lot people's life around the world, life around the world, life around the world, I consider myself a failed entrepreneur. I consider myself a failed entrepreneur. I consider myself a failed entrepreneur. >> That's absurd. >> That's absurd. >> That's absurd. But that's why you got to say like why? But that's why you got to say like why? But that's why you got to say like why? >> Because the the best entrepreneurs never >> Because the the best entrepreneurs never >> Because the the best entrepreneurs never have to sell their company. have to sell their company. have to sell their company. >> Okay, not a fish button on that. There >> Okay, not a fish button on that. There >> Okay, not a fish button on that. There you go. you go. you go. >> And uh so I had to learn for 20 years >> And uh so I had to learn for 20 years >> And uh so I had to learn for 20 years how to get to the point to design the how to get to the point to design the how to get to the point to design the structure, the culture, the team, the structure, the culture, the team, the structure, the culture, the team, the knowledge, the the aperture or the the knowledge, the the aperture or the the knowledge, the the aperture or the the brand compound all those values to a brand compound all those values to a brand compound all those values to a place where we can do something place where we can do something place where we can do something for forever. for forever. for forever. >> This is the infinite game. >> This is the infinite game. >> This is the infinite game. >> This is the infinite game. >> This is the infinite game. >> This is the infinite game. >> Nick Sleep uh has one of my favorite >> Nick Sleep uh has one of my favorite >> Nick Sleep uh has one of my favorite lines ever. And he goes, "The best lines ever. And he goes, "The best lines ever. And he goes, "The best investors aren't investors, they're investors aren't investors, they're investors aren't investors, they're entrepreneurs who never sold." entrepreneurs who never sold." entrepreneurs who never sold." >> 100% [snorts] agree. >> 100% [snorts] agree. >> 100% [snorts] agree. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So that's fascinating. Look at Okay, the So that's fascinating. Look at Okay, the So that's fascinating. Look at Okay, the fact is I'm a failed entrepreneur cuz I fact is I'm a failed entrepreneur cuz I fact is I'm a failed entrepreneur cuz I had to exit. You had crazy successful had to exit. You had crazy successful had to exit. You had crazy successful exits, too. exits, too. exits, too. For my first five because I didn't find For my first five because I didn't find For my first five because I didn't find the vehicle in which I can do forever. the vehicle in which I can do forever. the vehicle in which I can do forever. Which is again, when when again like um Which is again, when when again like um Which is again, when when again like um I'm like new to I'm like new to I'm like new to being relatively known in like this being relatively known in like this being relatively known in like this community in the last like 5 years for a community in the last like 5 years for a community in the last like 5 years for a podcast. And I didn't understand cuz I podcast. And I didn't understand cuz I podcast. And I didn't understand cuz I sat in a room by myself for a decade and sat in a room by myself for a decade and sat in a room by myself for a decade and just talked into a microphone and read just talked into a microphone and read just talked into a microphone and read books. I didn't think about the outside books. I didn't think about the outside books. I didn't think about the outside world at all. And then everything kind world at all. And then everything kind world at all. And then everything kind of came to me. And so now I have to like of came to me. And so now I have to like of came to me. And so now I have to like constantly vet everybody around me. And constantly vet everybody around me. And constantly vet everybody around me. And I get a lot of advice from like I get a lot of advice from like I get a lot of advice from like especially like older more successful especially like older more successful especially like older more successful entrepreneurs who are like, "Man, you entrepreneurs who are like, "Man, you entrepreneurs who are like, "Man, you have to be so [ __ ] careful with like have to be so [ __ ] careful with like have to be so [ __ ] careful with like cuz there's goes back to Charlie cuz there's goes back to Charlie cuz there's goes back to Charlie Munger's like most people are wrapped up Munger's like most people are wrapped up Munger's like most people are wrapped up in their own world." in their own world." in their own world." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right? And so it's like and it's just >> Right? And so it's like and it's just >> Right? And so it's like and it's just like you have to like vet them in all like you have to like vet them in all like you have to like vet them in all different uh directions. But when I and different uh directions. But when I and different uh directions. But when I and even people I want to even people I want to even people I want to have dinner with or talk to you, like have dinner with or talk to you, like have dinner with or talk to you, like you. you. you. You ask a bunch of people. And they're You ask a bunch of people. And they're You ask a bunch of people. And they're just like, "He's obsessed with this just like, "He's obsessed with this just like, "He's obsessed with this infinite game." infinite game." infinite game." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> This infinite game. He's like they don't >> This infinite game. He's like they don't >> This infinite game. He's like they don't He doesn't need more money. And he He doesn't need more money. And he He doesn't need more money. And he doesn't need to do another deal in his doesn't need to do another deal in his doesn't need to do another deal in his life. But he just can't stop. life. But he just can't stop. life. But he just can't stop. >> But it's it's this joy. It's this thing >> But it's it's this joy. It's this thing >> But it's it's this joy. It's this thing that every day you get better. that every day you get better. that every day you get better. And you just are improving. And uh you And you just are improving. And uh you And you just are improving. And uh you know, I sat with Charlie Munger once know, I sat with Charlie Munger once know, I sat with Charlie Munger once in one of after another meeting in one of after another meeting in one of after another meeting at the Happy Hollow Golf Club where at the Happy Hollow Golf Club where at the Happy Hollow Golf Club where Warren had this thing afterwards. And I Warren had this thing afterwards. And I Warren had this thing afterwards. And I saw myself and I only had one stock of saw myself and I only had one stock of saw myself and I only had one stock of Berkshire. I was probably 24 Berkshire. I was probably 24 Berkshire. I was probably 24 years old and 25. And years old and 25. And years old and 25. And I sit next to him. Well, he sits next to I sit next to him. Well, he sits next to I sit next to him. Well, he sits next to me. I'm sitting he says he says take me. I'm sitting he says he says take me. I'm sitting he says he says take him. I said, "No, come on sit here, him. I said, "No, come on sit here, him. I said, "No, come on sit here, Charlie." And we started to talk and and Charlie." And we started to talk and and Charlie." And we started to talk and and that room was everybody. Bill Gates was that room was everybody. Bill Gates was that room was everybody. Bill Gates was there. All these big CEOs of all these there. All these big CEOs of all these there. All these big CEOs of all these companies and I was like the youngest companies and I was like the youngest companies and I was like the youngest guy by an order of magnitude. And he guy by an order of magnitude. And he guy by an order of magnitude. And he looks at me and says, looks at me and says, looks at me and says, "You must be very wealthy to be here." "You must be very wealthy to be here." "You must be very wealthy to be here." And I said, "Actually, no. I only own And I said, "Actually, no. I only own And I said, "Actually, no. I only own one share." He says, "You don't get it. one share." He says, "You don't get it. one share." He says, "You don't get it. You are the wealthiest guy in the room." You are the wealthiest guy in the room." You are the wealthiest guy in the room." And I said, "You're wrong, Charlie." And I said, "You're wrong, Charlie." And I said, "You're wrong, Charlie." "No, no, you are." "Why?" "No, no, you are." "Why?" "No, no, you are." "Why?" "You have the power of time. "You have the power of time. "You have the power of time. All of us here are in our last chapter. All of us here are in our last chapter. All of us here are in our last chapter. You're just starting your time. You will You're just starting your time. You will You're just starting your time. You will compound for the next 70 years of your compound for the next 70 years of your compound for the next 70 years of your life. life. life. So, never forget the rule that I'm about So, never forget the rule that I'm about So, never forget the rule that I'm about to tell you. to tell you. to tell you. You only need to get rich once. And then You only need to get rich once. And then You only need to get rich once. And then that was it. He says, "And now I'm going that was it. He says, "And now I'm going that was it. He says, "And now I'm going to eat." And he just sat down and ate. to eat." And he just sat down and ate. to eat." And he just sat down and ate. >> I love that. Yeah, time is the only true >> I love that. Yeah, time is the only true >> I love that. Yeah, time is the only true currency you have. currency you have. currency you have. >> the only true currency you have. >> the only true currency you have. >> the only true currency you have. >> I appreciate you spending your time >> I appreciate you spending your time >> I appreciate you spending your time giving it to us today. This is awesome. giving it to us today. This is awesome. giving it to us today. This is awesome. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you for having me. >> I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please >> I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please >> I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please remember to subscribe wherever you're remember to subscribe wherever you're remember to subscribe wherever you're listening and leave a review. And make listening and leave a review. And make listening and leave a review. And make sure you listen to my other podcast sure you listen to my other podcast sure you listen to my other podcast Founders. For almost a decade, I have Founders. For almost a decade, I have Founders. For almost a decade, I have obsessively read over 400 biographies of obsessively read over 400 biographies of obsessively read over 400 biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs history's greatest entrepreneurs history's greatest entrepreneurs searching for ideas that you can use in searching for ideas that you can use in searching for ideas that you can use in your work. Most of the guests you hear your work. Most of the guests you hear your work. Most of the guests you hear on this show first found me through on this show first found me through on this show first found me through Founders.