Michael Pollan On: Reducing Rumination and Reclaiming Your Attention From the Machines

How is it that three lbs of gray matter How is it that three lbs of gray matter between your ears, these neurons, this between your ears, these neurons, this between your ears, these neurons, this animal flesh, can generate subjective animal flesh, can generate subjective animal flesh, can generate subjective experience? And nobody really knows how experience? And nobody really knows how experience? And nobody really knows how that works. It remains a tremendous that works. It remains a tremendous that works. It remains a tremendous mystery. It's incredibly weird when you mystery. It's incredibly weird when you mystery. It's incredibly weird when you think about it. At the same time we're think about it. At the same time we're think about it. At the same time we're looking at each other and having this looking at each other and having this looking at each other and having this conversation, there's another conversation, there's another conversation, there's another conversation going on in each of our conversation going on in each of our conversation going on in each of our minds. Being more conscious is to be minds. Being more conscious is to be minds. Being more conscious is to be more present. more present to more present. more present to more present. more present to experience, more present to reality, and experience, more present to reality, and experience, more present to reality, and it's just a it's just a fuller life. >> Michael Pollen, welcome back to the >> Michael Pollen, welcome back to the show. show. show. >> Thank you, Dan. Very good to be here. >> Thank you, Dan. Very good to be here. >> Thank you, Dan. Very good to be here. >> It's great to have you here. >> It's great to have you here. >> It's great to have you here. Congratulations on your new book. Congratulations on your new book. Congratulations on your new book. Speaking of your new book, I'm just Speaking of your new book, I'm just Speaking of your new book, I'm just curious, why this subject? I can imagine curious, why this subject? I can imagine curious, why this subject? I can imagine why, but but why consciousness? You why, but but why consciousness? You why, but but why consciousness? You know, when I think about it in know, when I think about it in know, when I think about it in retrospect, I think I must have been retrospect, I think I must have been retrospect, I think I must have been crazy to think I could write a book crazy to think I could write a book crazy to think I could write a book about consciousness. about consciousness. about consciousness. And uh I I don't know exactly what got And uh I I don't know exactly what got And uh I I don't know exactly what got into me, but it really grew out of a into me, but it really grew out of a into me, but it really grew out of a series of experiences I had um both in series of experiences I had um both in series of experiences I had um both in meditation and in experimenting with meditation and in experimenting with meditation and in experimenting with psychedelics uh which I had done for my psychedelics uh which I had done for my psychedelics uh which I had done for my book before last, how to change your book before last, how to change your book before last, how to change your mind. And there is a way that both mind. And there is a way that both mind. And there is a way that both activities kind of smudge the the activities kind of smudge the the activities kind of smudge the the windshield windshield windshield >> of our perception. And suddenly we >> of our perception. And suddenly we >> of our perception. And suddenly we realize there is a windshield and it's realize there is a windshield and it's realize there is a windshield and it's like this. But why isn't it like that? like this. But why isn't it like that? like this. But why isn't it like that? You're suddenly aware of something that You're suddenly aware of something that You're suddenly aware of something that is normally just the water you swim in. is normally just the water you swim in. is normally just the water you swim in. Uh which is to say this conscious Uh which is to say this conscious Uh which is to say this conscious awareness of the world, but also this awareness of the world, but also this awareness of the world, but also this this space of interiority. You know, I this space of interiority. You know, I this space of interiority. You know, I mean, it's incredibly weird when you mean, it's incredibly weird when you mean, it's incredibly weird when you think about it that at the same time think about it that at the same time think about it that at the same time we're looking at each other and having we're looking at each other and having we're looking at each other and having this conversation, there's another this conversation, there's another this conversation, there's another conversation going on in each of our conversation going on in each of our conversation going on in each of our minds. minds. minds. >> Is this guy crazy? I I don't know what >> Is this guy crazy? I I don't know what >> Is this guy crazy? I I don't know what you're thinking, but um uh you're thinking, but um uh you're thinking, but um uh so so so >> wait, wait, wait, wait. You're you're >> wait, wait, wait, wait. You're you're >> wait, wait, wait, wait. You're you're thinking, is this guy crazy? Is that thinking, is this guy crazy? Is that thinking, is this guy crazy? Is that what you're thinking? what you're thinking? what you're thinking? >> I'm thinking maybe you're thinking that. >> I'm thinking maybe you're thinking that. >> I'm thinking maybe you're thinking that. Uh Uh Uh he talks about the windshield of he talks about the windshield of he talks about the windshield of perception. I don't know. Um, perception. I don't know. Um, perception. I don't know. Um, and I'm having my own like, you know, and I'm having my own like, you know, and I'm having my own like, you know, what is he wearing? What is that red dot what is he wearing? What is that red dot what is he wearing? What is that red dot behind him? Um, you know, there. So, behind him? Um, you know, there. So, behind him? Um, you know, there. So, there's a lot going on that we don't there's a lot going on that we don't there's a lot going on that we don't really think about at all and we think really think about at all and we think really think about at all and we think we have this transparent relationship we have this transparent relationship we have this transparent relationship with reality and this direct with reality and this direct with reality and this direct conversation with other people. So, what conversation with other people. So, what conversation with other people. So, what essentially had happened is that essentially had happened is that essentially had happened is that consciousness had become defamiliarized consciousness had become defamiliarized consciousness had become defamiliarized for me. Um and in the way art sometimes for me. Um and in the way art sometimes for me. Um and in the way art sometimes can defamiliarize experience and make can defamiliarize experience and make can defamiliarize experience and make you look at it and say, "Yeah, that is you look at it and say, "Yeah, that is you look at it and say, "Yeah, that is really strange." And so that's kind of really strange." And so that's kind of really strange." And so that's kind of now this is not unusual. Lots of people now this is not unusual. Lots of people now this is not unusual. Lots of people who meditate and use psychedelics who meditate and use psychedelics who meditate and use psychedelics finally start asking questions about finally start asking questions about finally start asking questions about consciousness. I mean in meditation you consciousness. I mean in meditation you consciousness. I mean in meditation you get a chance to observe your get a chance to observe your get a chance to observe your consciousness in a way we don't in consciousness in a way we don't in consciousness in a way we don't in everyday life. And um so I thought well everyday life. And um so I thought well everyday life. And um so I thought well I like to write books about things I'm I like to write books about things I'm I like to write books about things I'm curious about. Why not this? And I have curious about. Why not this? And I have curious about. Why not this? And I have an incredibly indulgent editor who when an incredibly indulgent editor who when an incredibly indulgent editor who when when I proposed this didn't bat an eye. when I proposed this didn't bat an eye. when I proposed this didn't bat an eye. She says, "Yeah, that sounds great. She says, "Yeah, that sounds great. She says, "Yeah, that sounds great. Let's do it." So that sent me down this Let's do it." So that sent me down this Let's do it." So that sent me down this very long trail of trying to understand very long trail of trying to understand very long trail of trying to understand something that um is, you know, famously something that um is, you know, famously something that um is, you know, famously known as the hard problem. And uh you known as the hard problem. And uh you known as the hard problem. And uh you know, warning, I didn't figure it out. I know, warning, I didn't figure it out. I know, warning, I didn't figure it out. I mean the the the main question that goes mean the the the main question that goes mean the the the main question that goes under the rubric of hard problem which under the rubric of hard problem which under the rubric of hard problem which is essentially um how is it that three is essentially um how is it that three is essentially um how is it that three pounds of gray matter between your ears pounds of gray matter between your ears pounds of gray matter between your ears these neurons this animal flesh can these neurons this animal flesh can these neurons this animal flesh can generate subjective experience and generate subjective experience and generate subjective experience and nobody really knows how that works. It's nobody really knows how that works. It's nobody really knows how that works. It's it remains a tremendous mystery. it remains a tremendous mystery. it remains a tremendous mystery. >> I once heard Jack Kornfield articulate >> I once heard Jack Kornfield articulate >> I once heard Jack Kornfield articulate the mystery thusly. Um, how did planet the mystery thusly. Um, how did planet the mystery thusly. Um, how did planet Earth go from rocks to opera? Earth go from rocks to opera? Earth go from rocks to opera? >> That's the story. That's the story. And >> That's the story. That's the story. And >> That's the story. That's the story. And there's another mystery in there, too, there's another mystery in there, too, there's another mystery in there, too, is how do we get to life from dead is how do we get to life from dead is how do we get to life from dead matter? Another question we really matter? Another question we really matter? Another question we really haven't solved yet. I mean, we, you haven't solved yet. I mean, we, you haven't solved yet. I mean, we, you know, we know about the Darwinian soup know, we know about the Darwinian soup know, we know about the Darwinian soup of chemicals that might have joined in a of chemicals that might have joined in a of chemicals that might have joined in a certain way and started reproducing. Um, certain way and started reproducing. Um, certain way and started reproducing. Um, but that's uh so those are the two two but that's uh so those are the two two but that's uh so those are the two two of the three big questions. The third of the three big questions. The third of the three big questions. The third one is why is there something rather one is why is there something rather one is why is there something rather than nothing? >> And I'm not going to write about that in >> And I'm not going to write about that in the next book. the next book. the next book. >> Going to go back to food. Uh something. >> Going to go back to food. Uh something. >> Going to go back to food. Uh something. >> So we we've been using this word >> So we we've been using this word >> So we we've been using this word consciousness, but it might be helpful consciousness, but it might be helpful consciousness, but it might be helpful to define it and perhaps while we're at to define it and perhaps while we're at to define it and perhaps while we're at it, and you touched on this a little it, and you touched on this a little it, and you touched on this a little bit, but on top of the definition, maybe bit, but on top of the definition, maybe bit, but on top of the definition, maybe add like why we should care. add like why we should care. add like why we should care. >> Yeah. Okay. Well, those are two big >> Yeah. Okay. Well, those are two big >> Yeah. Okay. Well, those are two big questions. Um, consciousness can be questions. Um, consciousness can be questions. Um, consciousness can be defined in one word as experience. The defined in one word as experience. The defined in one word as experience. The fact that you have experience, that's fact that you have experience, that's fact that you have experience, that's something your toaster does not have as something your toaster does not have as something your toaster does not have as far as we know. Um, or awareness, the far as we know. Um, or awareness, the far as we know. Um, or awareness, the fact that you are um, not just present fact that you are um, not just present fact that you are um, not just present here, but aware that you are. Those are here, but aware that you are. Those are here, but aware that you are. Those are two good definitions. Another way to two good definitions. Another way to two good definitions. Another way to think about it is back in the 70s there think about it is back in the 70s there think about it is back in the 70s there was a famous article written by a NYU was a famous article written by a NYU was a famous article written by a NYU philosopher called what is it like to be philosopher called what is it like to be philosopher called what is it like to be a bat and his contention was if it is a bat and his contention was if it is a bat and his contention was if it is like anything to be a bat and we can like anything to be a bat and we can like anything to be a bat and we can imagine with some effort what it's like imagine with some effort what it's like imagine with some effort what it's like to be a bat which is to say a creature to be a bat which is to say a creature to be a bat which is to say a creature that navigates its world through that navigates its world through that navigates its world through echolocation echolocation echolocation you know bouncing sound waves off of its you know bouncing sound waves off of its you know bouncing sound waves off of its environment rather than taking in environment rather than taking in environment rather than taking in reflected light as we do. So it's weird reflected light as we do. So it's weird reflected light as we do. So it's weird but it's something to be that creature. but it's something to be that creature. but it's something to be that creature. Well then that creature is conscious. So Well then that creature is conscious. So Well then that creature is conscious. So it's not exactly a definition but it's a it's not exactly a definition but it's a it's not exactly a definition but it's a a formulation. a formulation. a formulation. So in in one sense it's very simple. So in in one sense it's very simple. So in in one sense it's very simple. It's the fact that you know as the title It's the fact that you know as the title It's the fact that you know as the title of the book goes a world appears when we of the book goes a world appears when we of the book goes a world appears when we open our eyes. It's also though I mean open our eyes. It's also though I mean open our eyes. It's also though I mean there more complicated dimensions of there more complicated dimensions of there more complicated dimensions of consciousness that awareness many many consciousness that awareness many many consciousness that awareness many many animals have. It's not so unusual in animals have. It's not so unusual in animals have. It's not so unusual in nature and experience is not so unusual nature and experience is not so unusual nature and experience is not so unusual in nature and what it is likeness is not in nature and what it is likeness is not in nature and what it is likeness is not so unusual in nature. What we have in so unusual in nature. What we have in so unusual in nature. What we have in addition to that uh are these layers of addition to that uh are these layers of addition to that uh are these layers of uh kind of recursive layers of uh kind of recursive layers of uh kind of recursive layers of self-consciousness. The fact that not self-consciousness. The fact that not self-consciousness. The fact that not only are we aware but we're aware that only are we aware but we're aware that only are we aware but we're aware that we're aware. we're aware. we're aware. >> Um that's pretty kind of trippy when you >> Um that's pretty kind of trippy when you >> Um that's pretty kind of trippy when you think about it. And we have a sense of think about it. And we have a sense of think about it. And we have a sense of self also uh which is a product of self also uh which is a product of self also uh which is a product of consciousness. Uh it's it's certainly consciousness. Uh it's it's certainly consciousness. Uh it's it's certainly not a product of brains. I mean, we've not a product of brains. I mean, we've not a product of brains. I mean, we've never been able to locate the self in never been able to locate the self in never been able to locate the self in the in the gray matter. Um in terms of the in the gray matter. Um in terms of the in the gray matter. Um in terms of why it matters, that's a that's a really why it matters, that's a that's a really why it matters, that's a that's a really big question. I mean, many people go big question. I mean, many people go big question. I mean, many people go through life not thinking about through life not thinking about through life not thinking about consciousness or the fact that they are consciousness or the fact that they are consciousness or the fact that they are conscious beings and this rock is not a conscious beings and this rock is not a conscious beings and this rock is not a conscious being. Um, but I found that conscious being. Um, but I found that conscious being. Um, but I found that paying attention to it was incredibly paying attention to it was incredibly paying attention to it was incredibly rewarding and that we take our rewarding and that we take our rewarding and that we take our consciousness for granted. There are consciousness for granted. There are consciousness for granted. There are certain experiences certain experiences certain experiences that make us see it and feel it and that make us see it and feel it and that make us see it and feel it and being more conscious is to be more being more conscious is to be more being more conscious is to be more present. Uh, more present to experience, present. Uh, more present to experience, present. Uh, more present to experience, more present to reality and it's just a more present to reality and it's just a more present to reality and it's just a it's just a fuller life. But there's it's just a fuller life. But there's it's just a fuller life. But there's also, I think, a particular urgency also, I think, a particular urgency also, I think, a particular urgency about paying attention to consciousness about paying attention to consciousness about paying attention to consciousness right now, which is that there are uh right now, which is that there are uh right now, which is that there are uh technologies and corporations that are technologies and corporations that are technologies and corporations that are eager on kind of colonizing your eager on kind of colonizing your eager on kind of colonizing your consciousness. Um, if you think about consciousness. Um, if you think about consciousness. Um, if you think about social media, it has colonized all that social media, it has colonized all that social media, it has colonized all that stray time in which we are more fully stray time in which we are more fully stray time in which we are more fully conscious of our environment, of conscious of our environment, of conscious of our environment, of ourselves. uh you know, think of ourselves. uh you know, think of ourselves. uh you know, think of standing online, you know, at the cash standing online, you know, at the cash standing online, you know, at the cash machine or whatever and um we used to machine or whatever and um we used to machine or whatever and um we used to look around, think, plan our dinner, look around, think, plan our dinner, look around, think, plan our dinner, daydream, wonder about the person in daydream, wonder about the person in daydream, wonder about the person in front of us online. Now we scroll on our front of us online. Now we scroll on our front of us online. Now we scroll on our phones. Now, you have to be conscious to phones. Now, you have to be conscious to phones. Now, you have to be conscious to scroll on your phone obviously, but it's scroll on your phone obviously, but it's scroll on your phone obviously, but it's a pretty minimal consciousness compared a pretty minimal consciousness compared a pretty minimal consciousness compared to what's possible. And I think that to what's possible. And I think that to what's possible. And I think that that uh problem that that social media that uh problem that that social media that uh problem that that social media has given us is being amplified right has given us is being amplified right has given us is being amplified right now by AI because AI now by AI because AI now by AI because AI uh chat bots are pretending to be uh chat bots are pretending to be uh chat bots are pretending to be conscious and fooling people that they conscious and fooling people that they conscious and fooling people that they are. And in the same way social media are. And in the same way social media are. And in the same way social media allowed companies to kind of hack our allowed companies to kind of hack our allowed companies to kind of hack our attention, they're now with AI hacking attention, they're now with AI hacking attention, they're now with AI hacking our our emotions, our attachment. you our our emotions, our attachment. you our our emotions, our attachment. you know, this very central human need to know, this very central human need to know, this very central human need to attach to other people. Many people are attach to other people. Many people are attach to other people. Many people are are starting to fall in love with chat are starting to fall in love with chat are starting to fall in love with chat bots and have, you know, meaningful bots and have, you know, meaningful bots and have, you know, meaningful relationships with machines, which I relationships with machines, which I relationships with machines, which I basically think is very dangerous and is basically think is very dangerous and is basically think is very dangerous and is the is the very definition of the is the very definition of the is the very definition of dehumanizing dehumanizing dehumanizing when when you're relating to a machine when when you're relating to a machine when when you're relating to a machine like that. But so so that's another like that. But so so that's another like that. But so so that's another another uh kind of urgency. I I think we another uh kind of urgency. I I think we another uh kind of urgency. I I think we need to think hard about our need to think hard about our need to think hard about our consciousness and how we might reclaim consciousness and how we might reclaim consciousness and how we might reclaim that precious space of interiority from that precious space of interiority from that precious space of interiority from these technologies and and corporations these technologies and and corporations these technologies and and corporations that have designs on it. that have designs on it. that have designs on it. >> So two parts there. The first is >> So two parts there. The first is >> So two parts there. The first is becoming conscious of your becoming conscious of your becoming conscious of your consciousness, aware of your awareness. consciousness, aware of your awareness. consciousness, aware of your awareness. It just helps you live a more it thrusts It just helps you live a more it thrusts It just helps you live a more it thrusts you into the present moment. like you into the present moment. like you into the present moment. like definitionally it helps you live a more definitionally it helps you live a more definitionally it helps you live a more vivid and fulfilled life and on a vivid and fulfilled life and on a vivid and fulfilled life and on a related note and this is the second part related note and this is the second part related note and this is the second part of your argument as I understand it and of your argument as I understand it and of your argument as I understand it and you'll correct me if I misunderstand it you'll correct me if I misunderstand it you'll correct me if I misunderstand it we're in an era where we have and this we're in an era where we have and this we're in an era where we have and this is your term and I really like this term is your term and I really like this term is your term and I really like this term these colonizers of consciousness in the these colonizers of consciousness in the these colonizers of consciousness in the form of phones generally social media form of phones generally social media form of phones generally social media specifically and now even more specifically and now even more specifically and now even more specifically AI that is you know specifically AI that is you know specifically AI that is you know reducing the aperture of consciousness reducing the aperture of consciousness reducing the aperture of consciousness in ways that can be quite pernitious in ways that can be quite pernitious in ways that can be quite pernitious Yeah, exactly right. And um we we're Yeah, exactly right. And um we we're Yeah, exactly right. And um we we're giving something away that's really giving something away that's really giving something away that's really precious and I think we need to reclaim precious and I think we need to reclaim precious and I think we need to reclaim it. And you know, we've all had this it. And you know, we've all had this it. And you know, we've all had this experience of what happens when as at a experience of what happens when as at a experience of what happens when as at a meditation retreat, you put aside your meditation retreat, you put aside your meditation retreat, you put aside your phone for for days or weeks. Things phone for for days or weeks. Things phone for for days or weeks. Things change. You are uh alone with your mind. change. You are uh alone with your mind. change. You are uh alone with your mind. And other things are happening at a And other things are happening at a And other things are happening at a meditation retreat, too. I say the lack meditation retreat, too. I say the lack meditation retreat, too. I say the lack of eye contact and the lack of of eye contact and the lack of of eye contact and the lack of conversation. you really are kind of conversation. you really are kind of conversation. you really are kind of putting a fence around this this amazing putting a fence around this this amazing putting a fence around this this amazing thing of your consciousness and going thing of your consciousness and going thing of your consciousness and going deep to explore it. deep to explore it. deep to explore it. >> And I found the value of that profound. >> And I found the value of that profound. >> And I found the value of that profound. And it's it's interesting in the book And it's it's interesting in the book And it's it's interesting in the book the book gradually makes this transition the book gradually makes this transition the book gradually makes this transition from really worrying about the hard from really worrying about the hard from really worrying about the hard problem and framing things in this very problem and framing things in this very problem and framing things in this very western male problem solution frame western male problem solution frame western male problem solution frame which is the the frame that all the which is the the frame that all the which is the the frame that all the scientists studying consciousness use to scientists studying consciousness use to scientists studying consciousness use to realizing well there is the problem of realizing well there is the problem of realizing well there is the problem of consciousness but then there's the fact consciousness but then there's the fact consciousness but then there's the fact of it and I got more and more interested of it and I got more and more interested of it and I got more and more interested in the fact of it in the fact of it in the fact of it >> and how does the stream of consciousness >> and how does the stream of consciousness >> and how does the stream of consciousness work how does medit meditation affect work how does medit meditation affect work how does medit meditation affect consciousness? How do psychedelics consciousness? How do psychedelics consciousness? How do psychedelics affect consciousness? Um, so my my the affect consciousness? Um, so my my the affect consciousness? Um, so my my the book kind of shifts in focus as time book kind of shifts in focus as time book kind of shifts in focus as time goes on and by the end um well I don't goes on and by the end um well I don't goes on and by the end um well I don't want to give away the ending but um it want to give away the ending but um it want to give away the ending but um it it's very much about experiencing it's very much about experiencing it's very much about experiencing consciousness um and in which for me consciousness um and in which for me consciousness um and in which for me became very profound where I I went into became very profound where I I went into became very profound where I I went into a period of isolation. There's a a few a period of isolation. There's a a few a period of isolation. There's a a few days at the end of the book where I'm days at the end of the book where I'm days at the end of the book where I'm essentially living in a cave in in New essentially living in a cave in in New essentially living in a cave in in New Mexico. Mexico. Mexico. >> And uh I won't tell you what happened, >> And uh I won't tell you what happened, >> And uh I won't tell you what happened, but it was to I was more alone with my but it was to I was more alone with my but it was to I was more alone with my consciousness than I'd been in a long consciousness than I'd been in a long consciousness than I'd been in a long time. I should add though that it can be time. I should add though that it can be time. I should add though that it can be hard to be alone with your hard to be alone with your hard to be alone with your consciousness. It isn't always consciousness. It isn't always consciousness. It isn't always wonderful. There's a reason, I think, wonderful. There's a reason, I think, wonderful. There's a reason, I think, that we want to be distracted. Um we that we want to be distracted. Um we that we want to be distracted. Um we we're willing ourselves to be less we're willing ourselves to be less we're willing ourselves to be less conscious, and that's cuz it can be conscious, and that's cuz it can be conscious, and that's cuz it can be painful. I mean it it causes you to painful. I mean it it causes you to painful. I mean it it causes you to examine yourself. You know, the mind can examine yourself. You know, the mind can examine yourself. You know, the mind can be a scary place to be and and be a scary place to be and and be a scary place to be and and particularly for people who've had a particularly for people who've had a particularly for people who've had a traumatic past um who are struggling traumatic past um who are struggling traumatic past um who are struggling with um you know, profound issues uh of with um you know, profound issues uh of with um you know, profound issues uh of mortality or relationships. So, I mortality or relationships. So, I mortality or relationships. So, I totally get the desire to escape this totally get the desire to escape this totally get the desire to escape this place. Um, but in the end, I don't think place. Um, but in the end, I don't think place. Um, but in the end, I don't think we're going to be satisfied in our lives we're going to be satisfied in our lives we're going to be satisfied in our lives without learning how to occupy it and without learning how to occupy it and without learning how to occupy it and defend it. defend it. defend it. >> In terms of the defending it or >> In terms of the defending it or >> In terms of the defending it or reclaiming it, as you referred to it reclaiming it, as you referred to it reclaiming it, as you referred to it earlier, for people listening who may earlier, for people listening who may earlier, for people listening who may not, you know, want to go on a not, you know, want to go on a not, you know, want to go on a meditation retreat or be able to go on a meditation retreat or be able to go on a meditation retreat or be able to go on a meditation retreat. And just side note, meditation retreat. And just side note, meditation retreat. And just side note, I am going to come back to your I am going to come back to your I am going to come back to your meditation retreat experiences meditation retreat experiences meditation retreat experiences eventually, but just staying at the sort eventually, but just staying at the sort eventually, but just staying at the sort of shallower end of the pool. What do of shallower end of the pool. What do of shallower end of the pool. What do you recommend or what do you do you recommend or what do you do you recommend or what do you do personally in day-today life to defend personally in day-today life to defend personally in day-today life to defend or reclaim your consciousness? or reclaim your consciousness? or reclaim your consciousness? >> Well, I do meditate every day and not >> Well, I do meditate every day and not >> Well, I do meditate every day and not for a very long time. usually for like for a very long time. usually for like for a very long time. usually for like 20 minutes and that that that's just a 20 minutes and that that that's just a 20 minutes and that that that's just a kind of reminder of this phenomenon and kind of reminder of this phenomenon and kind of reminder of this phenomenon and it it it calls my attention to it and it it it calls my attention to it and it it it calls my attention to it and I'm I'm really struck at how strange it I'm I'm really struck at how strange it I'm I'm really struck at how strange it is the the kinds of images that come up, is the the kinds of images that come up, is the the kinds of images that come up, the kinds of um snatches of narrative the kinds of um snatches of narrative the kinds of um snatches of narrative that come up. I feel like I'm in touch that come up. I feel like I'm in touch that come up. I feel like I'm in touch with some interesting forces within me with some interesting forces within me with some interesting forces within me and um so before I enter the day which and um so before I enter the day which and um so before I enter the day which is going to pull me this way and that is going to pull me this way and that is going to pull me this way and that way uh whether it's the email cue or the way uh whether it's the email cue or the way uh whether it's the email cue or the zoom meetings or the conversations with zoom meetings or the conversations with zoom meetings or the conversations with people I'm going to have to like put people I'm going to have to like put people I'm going to have to like put aside a lot of my interiority for that aside a lot of my interiority for that aside a lot of my interiority for that period of time but I have that little period of time but I have that little period of time but I have that little anchor every morning. Um, and I think anchor every morning. Um, and I think anchor every morning. Um, and I think that's that's one thing. The other thing that's that's one thing. The other thing that's that's one thing. The other thing is, you know, really trying to get on is, you know, really trying to get on is, you know, really trying to get on top of our distractions and getting, you top of our distractions and getting, you top of our distractions and getting, you know, putting myself in nature. Um, know, putting myself in nature. Um, know, putting myself in nature. Um, nature speaks with a much, you know, nature speaks with a much, you know, nature speaks with a much, you know, quieter, subtler voice than most of the quieter, subtler voice than most of the quieter, subtler voice than most of the things we deal with every day. And um so things we deal with every day. And um so things we deal with every day. And um so going out in nature place where you know going out in nature place where you know going out in nature place where you know in my case there's no cell phone in my case there's no cell phone in my case there's no cell phone reception or I leave my phone home is reception or I leave my phone home is reception or I leave my phone home is another way to kind of reconnect and um another way to kind of reconnect and um another way to kind of reconnect and um uh so you know I try to make some time uh so you know I try to make some time uh so you know I try to make some time every day and at the beginning of the every day and at the beginning of the every day and at the beginning of the day it's meditation end of the day it's day it's meditation end of the day it's day it's meditation end of the day it's a hike in Tilden Park above uh above a hike in Tilden Park above uh above a hike in Tilden Park above uh above Berkeley. Um so those two things help Berkeley. Um so those two things help Berkeley. Um so those two things help but I need to be reminded too. I can I but I need to be reminded too. I can I but I need to be reminded too. I can I can completely get absorbed in um you can completely get absorbed in um you can completely get absorbed in um you know social media or watching the news. know social media or watching the news. know social media or watching the news. I mean all these things that are you I mean all these things that are you I mean all these things that are you know yanking our attention away from know yanking our attention away from know yanking our attention away from consciousness and and our families and consciousness and and our families and consciousness and and our families and our presence and our where we are where our presence and our where we are where our presence and our where we are where we actually are. I want to go back to we actually are. I want to go back to we actually are. I want to go back to our daily or dailyish or occasional our daily or dailyish or occasional our daily or dailyish or occasional whatever cadence you prefer uh whatever cadence you prefer uh whatever cadence you prefer uh meditation practice our short bursts of meditation practice our short bursts of meditation practice our short bursts of meditation. I think I I can imagine a meditation. I think I I can imagine a meditation. I think I I can imagine a listener thinking well you know I listener thinking well you know I listener thinking well you know I meditate once in a while but I don't meditate once in a while but I don't meditate once in a while but I don't think of it in terms of consciousness uh think of it in terms of consciousness uh think of it in terms of consciousness uh you know I just you know try to focus on you know I just you know try to focus on you know I just you know try to focus on my breath or something else u sounds in my breath or something else u sounds in my breath or something else u sounds in the environment whatever I pick the environment whatever I pick the environment whatever I pick something to focus on loving kindness something to focus on loving kindness something to focus on loving kindness phrases and then every time I get phrases and then every time I get phrases and then every time I get distracted I start again and again and distracted I start again and again and distracted I start again and again and again and I thought I was doing again and I thought I was doing again and I thought I was doing meditation correctly but now you Michael meditation correctly but now you Michael meditation correctly but now you Michael Pollen are coming in and talking about Pollen are coming in and talking about Pollen are coming in and talking about consciousness but I don't really think consciousness but I don't really think consciousness but I don't really think about it in those terms and therefore am about it in those terms and therefore am about it in those terms and therefore am I doing it incorrectly I doing it incorrectly I doing it incorrectly No, no, no, no, no. It's just it's just No, no, no, no, no. It's just it's just No, no, no, no, no. It's just it's just a name. I'm I'm putting a name on that a name. I'm I'm putting a name on that a name. I'm I'm putting a name on that space that you're occupying that you're space that you're occupying that you're space that you're occupying that you're saying to yourself, "Oh [ __ ] I forgot. saying to yourself, "Oh [ __ ] I forgot. saying to yourself, "Oh [ __ ] I forgot. I lost the breath. I better get back to I lost the breath. I better get back to I lost the breath. I better get back to it." So, I think of it as a as a place, it." So, I think of it as a as a place, it." So, I think of it as a as a place, a space. And um that's kind of where a space. And um that's kind of where a space. And um that's kind of where you're operating when you're meditating. you're operating when you're meditating. you're operating when you're meditating. I I don't think it's any different than I I don't think it's any different than I I don't think it's any different than what I'm describing. I think I'm just what I'm describing. I think I'm just what I'm describing. I think I'm just putting a name to it. And you know, one putting a name to it. And you know, one putting a name to it. And you know, one of the things that strikes me, I mean, of the things that strikes me, I mean, of the things that strikes me, I mean, we all worry we're doing it wrong, we all worry we're doing it wrong, we all worry we're doing it wrong, right? Um, for me, I get a if I'm right? Um, for me, I get a if I'm right? Um, for me, I get a if I'm meditating, well, there's a lot of kind meditating, well, there's a lot of kind meditating, well, there's a lot of kind of hypnogogic imagery that kind of those of hypnogogic imagery that kind of those of hypnogogic imagery that kind of those kind of snatches of narrative or images kind of snatches of narrative or images kind of snatches of narrative or images that pop up right before you fall that pop up right before you fall that pop up right before you fall asleep. And it's not like I'm sleepy or asleep. And it's not like I'm sleepy or asleep. And it's not like I'm sleepy or anywhere near falling asleep, but for anywhere near falling asleep, but for anywhere near falling asleep, but for me, when I'm meditating, well, all that me, when I'm meditating, well, all that me, when I'm meditating, well, all that material uh is seems free to enter into material uh is seems free to enter into material uh is seems free to enter into my consciousness. And it's really my consciousness. And it's really my consciousness. And it's really interesting. Um, and I'll I'll watch interesting. Um, and I'll I'll watch interesting. Um, and I'll I'll watch that and sometimes drift along with it that and sometimes drift along with it that and sometimes drift along with it in a way you're probably not supposed in a way you're probably not supposed in a way you're probably not supposed to, but um, to, but um, to, but um, but you know, our attention, which I but you know, our attention, which I but you know, our attention, which I mean, that is a term you I'm sure you mean, that is a term you I'm sure you mean, that is a term you I'm sure you think about in terms of meditation. You think about in terms of meditation. You think about in terms of meditation. You know, am I attending to the breath or know, am I attending to the breath or know, am I attending to the breath or focus? I mean, those are elements of focus? I mean, those are elements of focus? I mean, those are elements of consciousness, tools of consciousness. consciousness, tools of consciousness. consciousness, tools of consciousness. Um, you know, where we aim our Um, you know, where we aim our Um, you know, where we aim our attention. uh it's the it's it's it's attention. uh it's the it's it's it's attention. uh it's the it's it's it's kind of the outward um focus of kind of the outward um focus of kind of the outward um focus of consciousness. Um but there are other consciousness. Um but there are other consciousness. Um but there are other elements too and you know there are elements too and you know there are elements too and you know there are emotions and feelings and um and then emotions and feelings and um and then emotions and feelings and um and then all that weird imagery that's floating all that weird imagery that's floating all that weird imagery that's floating up from who knows where. I mean, one can up from who knows where. I mean, one can up from who knows where. I mean, one can play with the weird imagery or random play with the weird imagery or random play with the weird imagery or random thoughts in a way that points you thoughts in a way that points you thoughts in a way that points you directly at consciousness simply by directly at consciousness simply by directly at consciousness simply by asking who ordered this dish. asking who ordered this dish. asking who ordered this dish. >> Yeah. Or Yeah. Who thought this thought? >> Yeah. Or Yeah. Who thought this thought? >> Yeah. Or Yeah. Who thought this thought? Who who perceived this perception? And Who who perceived this perception? And Who who perceived this perception? And of course that's a an exercise in of course that's a an exercise in of course that's a an exercise in meditation and usually you come up empty meditation and usually you come up empty meditation and usually you come up empty and that's really interesting too. I and that's really interesting too. I and that's really interesting too. I mean one of the things that meditation mean one of the things that meditation mean one of the things that meditation does and this is obvious to people who does and this is obvious to people who does and this is obvious to people who meditate seriously is raise profound meditate seriously is raise profound meditate seriously is raise profound questions about the self uh and whether questions about the self uh and whether questions about the self uh and whether it is real or a hallucination or a it is real or a hallucination or a it is real or a hallucination or a construction. construction. construction. And I mean I have a meditation teacher And I mean I have a meditation teacher And I mean I have a meditation teacher here in Berkeley and that's a big part here in Berkeley and that's a big part here in Berkeley and that's a big part of what he does. Um which is take you of what he does. Um which is take you of what he does. Um which is take you down a path and then just say okay let's down a path and then just say okay let's down a path and then just say okay let's take a look who's who's having those take a look who's who's having those take a look who's who's having those thoughts or are those thoughts thinking thoughts or are those thoughts thinking thoughts or are those thoughts thinking themselves and that you know going back themselves and that you know going back themselves and that you know going back to David Hume in the like what the 1740s to David Hume in the like what the 1740s to David Hume in the like what the 1740s that that operation of looking inside to that that operation of looking inside to that that operation of looking inside to find the self which he recommended and find the self which he recommended and find the self which he recommended and of course failed to do. He he said, "I of course failed to do. He he said, "I of course failed to do. He he said, "I you know, I went inside myself and I saw you know, I went inside myself and I saw you know, I went inside myself and I saw perceptions and thoughts and feelings perceptions and thoughts and feelings perceptions and thoughts and feelings and and there was never a lack of those, and and there was never a lack of those, and and there was never a lack of those, but I could not find who was having but I could not find who was having but I could not find who was having those perceptions, thoughts, and those perceptions, thoughts, and those perceptions, thoughts, and feelings." And that's, you know, that feelings." And that's, you know, that feelings." And that's, you know, that raises big questions about something we raises big questions about something we raises big questions about something we all take for granted. I mean, that's all take for granted. I mean, that's all take for granted. I mean, that's kind of the mo more subversive piece of kind of the mo more subversive piece of kind of the mo more subversive piece of meditation, I think, is to lead people meditation, I think, is to lead people meditation, I think, is to lead people to overturn this assumption that they to overturn this assumption that they to overturn this assumption that they are identical with their sense of self are identical with their sense of self are identical with their sense of self or ego. the not finding there's in or ego. the not finding there's in or ego. the not finding there's in Tibetan practice they often say the not Tibetan practice they often say the not Tibetan practice they often say the not finding is the finding. So the the point finding is the finding. So the the point finding is the finding. So the the point is is to to look who's taking delivery is is to to look who's taking delivery is is to to look who's taking delivery of all these perceptual packages and of all these perceptual packages and of all these perceptual packages and when you can't find anything well that's when you can't find anything well that's when you can't find anything well that's the point you're you're seeing that all the point you're you're seeing that all the point you're you're seeing that all there is is you know phenomena arising there is is you know phenomena arising there is is you know phenomena arising >> perceptions. Yeah. I like the way you >> perceptions. Yeah. I like the way you >> perceptions. Yeah. I like the way you you involve FedEx in consciousness you involve FedEx in consciousness you involve FedEx in consciousness there. there. there. >> You know they're they're a sponsor of >> You know they're they're a sponsor of >> You know they're they're a sponsor of the show Michael. So if you're listening FedEx, um we we if you're listening FedEx, um we we would gladly take you as a sponsor. would gladly take you as a sponsor. would gladly take you as a sponsor. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What's arising in this consciousness is >> What's arising in this consciousness is >> What's arising in this consciousness is greed right now. So greed right now. So greed right now. So >> but at least I'm seeing it clearly. So >> but at least I'm seeing it clearly. So >> but at least I'm seeing it clearly. So we're we're saying a little bit more we're we're saying a little bit more we're we're saying a little bit more because you dedicate a whole chapter to because you dedicate a whole chapter to because you dedicate a whole chapter to this you called it I think radical idea this you called it I think radical idea this you called it I think radical idea that the self is an illusion. Maybe just that the self is an illusion. Maybe just that the self is an illusion. Maybe just >> Yeah. I'd be curious. >> Yeah. I'd be curious. >> Yeah. I'd be curious. >> I struggle with that. >> I struggle with that. >> I struggle with that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We all do, I think, because we can We all do, I think, because we can We all do, I think, because we can resolve to make something happen and resolve to make something happen and resolve to make something happen and then make it happen. And who's doing then make it happen. And who's doing then make it happen. And who's doing that? I mean, we do take actions all the that? I mean, we do take actions all the that? I mean, we do take actions all the time. So, I'm not 100% convinced that time. So, I'm not 100% convinced that time. So, I'm not 100% convinced that the self is an illusion, but I get it. the self is an illusion, but I get it. the self is an illusion, but I get it. Uh, I did an exercise with Matthew um Uh, I did an exercise with Matthew um Uh, I did an exercise with Matthew um Ricard, the uh, you know, the uh, French Ricard, the uh, you know, the uh, French Ricard, the uh, you know, the uh, French scientist turned Buddhist monk. Uh, very scientist turned Buddhist monk. Uh, very scientist turned Buddhist monk. Uh, very interesting guy. He's written a lot on interesting guy. He's written a lot on interesting guy. He's written a lot on the self. And I was saying is are there the self. And I was saying is are there the self. And I was saying is are there any any meditation exercises I could use any any meditation exercises I could use any any meditation exercises I could use to explore this question? Because it it to explore this question? Because it it to explore this question? Because it it is one of the questions in the book. And is one of the questions in the book. And is one of the questions in the book. And he said yes. Imagine your mind as a he said yes. Imagine your mind as a he said yes. Imagine your mind as a house of many rooms and there is a thief house of many rooms and there is a thief house of many rooms and there is a thief in the house and go through every room in the house and go through every room in the house and go through every room until you find the thief. And you go until you find the thief. And you go until you find the thief. And you go through the room and lo and behold you through the room and lo and behold you through the room and lo and behold you find nothing. And he said that thief is find nothing. And he said that thief is find nothing. And he said that thief is the self and you can't find it. Now then the self and you can't find it. Now then the self and you can't find it. Now then I had this weird okay so interesting I had this weird okay so interesting I had this weird okay so interesting exercise um similar to what David Hume exercise um similar to what David Hume exercise um similar to what David Hume did right looking inside for the self did right looking inside for the self did right looking inside for the self but then I had this interesting but then I had this interesting but then I had this interesting experience of of being hypnotized uh by experience of of being hypnotized uh by experience of of being hypnotized uh by a Stamford psychiatrist named David a Stamford psychiatrist named David a Stamford psychiatrist named David Spiegel who's a great believer and uses Spiegel who's a great believer and uses Spiegel who's a great believer and uses hypnosis in his practice and I asked him hypnosis in his practice and I asked him hypnosis in his practice and I asked him I said could you hypnotize me and I want I said could you hypnotize me and I want I said could you hypnotize me and I want to try this exercise under hypnosis So to try this exercise under hypnosis So to try this exercise under hypnosis So he put me into a light trance. Turns out he put me into a light trance. Turns out he put me into a light trance. Turns out I'm, you know, we're all we all have a I'm, you know, we're all we all have a I'm, you know, we're all we all have a are either very hypnotizable, are either very hypnotizable, are either very hypnotizable, mildly so, or not at all. Turns out I'm mildly so, or not at all. Turns out I'm mildly so, or not at all. Turns out I'm like nine out of 10. Not hard to like nine out of 10. Not hard to like nine out of 10. Not hard to hypnotize. And I did this exercise going hypnotize. And I did this exercise going hypnotize. And I did this exercise going through the rooms of my head. And through the rooms of my head. And through the rooms of my head. And instead of finding nothing, I found a instead of finding nothing, I found a instead of finding nothing, I found a different self in every room. I found my different self in every room. I found my different self in every room. I found my like 13-year-old bar mitzvah boy self. I like 13-year-old bar mitzvah boy self. I like 13-year-old bar mitzvah boy self. I saw my 32-year-old young father self, saw my 32-year-old young father self, saw my 32-year-old young father self, you know, each dressed differently, you know, each dressed differently, you know, each dressed differently, looking differently. So, I found like looking differently. So, I found like looking differently. So, I found like six selves and I never got to get back six selves and I never got to get back six selves and I never got to get back to Ricard on that what that meant. It to Ricard on that what that meant. It to Ricard on that what that meant. It also it did deconstruct the idea that also it did deconstruct the idea that also it did deconstruct the idea that there is this unitary abiding self um there is this unitary abiding self um there is this unitary abiding self um that there are many that the self is that there are many that the self is that there are many that the self is many things. But it didn't sort of fit many things. But it didn't sort of fit many things. But it didn't sort of fit uh the you know the official uh Buddhist uh the you know the official uh Buddhist uh the you know the official uh Buddhist idea I think. So I'm I'm somewhat idea I think. So I'm I'm somewhat idea I think. So I'm I'm somewhat agnostic about the self. Um I do think agnostic about the self. Um I do think agnostic about the self. Um I do think however and did conclude that the um however and did conclude that the um however and did conclude that the um self and consciousness are not the same. self and consciousness are not the same. self and consciousness are not the same. In other words that you can have In other words that you can have In other words that you can have consciousness without a self. And there consciousness without a self. And there consciousness without a self. And there I think and that might seem like a I think and that might seem like a I think and that might seem like a strange idea but people who've uh strange idea but people who've uh strange idea but people who've uh meditated more extensively than I report meditated more extensively than I report meditated more extensively than I report this feeling of being conscious of very this feeling of being conscious of very this feeling of being conscious of very aware but no sense of self and it's aware but no sense of self and it's aware but no sense of self and it's something that happens on psychedelics something that happens on psychedelics something that happens on psychedelics too. It can on a high dose and I did too. It can on a high dose and I did too. It can on a high dose and I did once have this experience of complete once have this experience of complete once have this experience of complete self-dissolution. self-dissolution. self-dissolution. I saw myself explode in a cloud of blue I saw myself explode in a cloud of blue I saw myself explode in a cloud of blue Post-it notes that then fluttered to the Post-it notes that then fluttered to the Post-it notes that then fluttered to the ground like um snow and then they ground like um snow and then they ground like um snow and then they coalesed in this pool of blue paint and coalesed in this pool of blue paint and coalesed in this pool of blue paint and it was like that was me and I knew it it was like that was me and I knew it it was like that was me and I knew it was me but I was looking at it from this was me but I was looking at it from this was me but I was looking at it from this selfless purely objective selfless purely objective selfless purely objective completely calm perspective and not completely calm perspective and not completely calm perspective and not troubled by it at all. And if that troubled by it at all. And if that troubled by it at all. And if that sounds weird, if you think about, and sounds weird, if you think about, and sounds weird, if you think about, and this is a practice, um the moment when this is a practice, um the moment when this is a practice, um the moment when you wake, the first 500 milliseconds you wake, the first 500 milliseconds you wake, the first 500 milliseconds when you don't quite know who you are or when you don't quite know who you are or when you don't quite know who you are or where you are, that is an experience of where you are, that is an experience of where you are, that is an experience of no self, everybody has every day. We no self, everybody has every day. We no self, everybody has every day. We don't think about it cuz we just wait don't think about it cuz we just wait don't think about it cuz we just wait for everything to click in and and start for everything to click in and and start for everything to click in and and start again. Um but we all know that moment again. Um but we all know that moment again. Um but we all know that moment where like, who am I? Where am I? Am I? where like, who am I? Where am I? Am I? where like, who am I? Where am I? Am I? Um, and it's worth paying attention to Um, and it's worth paying attention to Um, and it's worth paying attention to um, because it helps you take on board um, because it helps you take on board um, because it helps you take on board the idea that the self and consciousness the idea that the self and consciousness the idea that the self and consciousness might not be identical or that you're might not be identical or that you're might not be identical or that you're not even identical to your ego and that not even identical to your ego and that not even identical to your ego and that you'll survive its death or temporary you'll survive its death or temporary you'll survive its death or temporary dissolution. You know, the self is is dissolution. You know, the self is is dissolution. You know, the self is is very funny in that we all in our culture very funny in that we all in our culture very funny in that we all in our culture at least kind of celebrate it. You know, at least kind of celebrate it. You know, at least kind of celebrate it. You know, we talk about the importance of we talk about the importance of we talk about the importance of self-confidence. self-confidence. self-confidence. Uh, we we practice self-interest. Uh, we we practice self-interest. Uh, we we practice self-interest. Um, we're told that it's very important Um, we're told that it's very important Um, we're told that it's very important to our success and it is right. It is to our success and it is right. It is to our success and it is right. It is our ego that helps you get your writing our ego that helps you get your writing our ego that helps you get your writing done, my writing done, making podcast. done, my writing done, making podcast. done, my writing done, making podcast. On the other hand, we put a lot of On the other hand, we put a lot of On the other hand, we put a lot of energy into escaping or transcending energy into escaping or transcending energy into escaping or transcending ourselves. And, you know, we we look for ourselves. And, you know, we we look for ourselves. And, you know, we we look for very absorbing experiences, right? We we very absorbing experiences, right? We we very absorbing experiences, right? We we go, you know, we we take physical risks. go, you know, we we take physical risks. go, you know, we we take physical risks. We want to put ourselves in that place We want to put ourselves in that place We want to put ourselves in that place of flow. Um, and I I'm very curious of flow. Um, and I I'm very curious of flow. Um, and I I'm very curious about that paradox that we celebrate the about that paradox that we celebrate the about that paradox that we celebrate the self and then work like hell to self and then work like hell to self and then work like hell to transcend it and and through meditation transcend it and and through meditation transcend it and and through meditation too. It's one of the reasons people too. It's one of the reasons people too. It's one of the reasons people meditate and or take psychedelics meditate and or take psychedelics meditate and or take psychedelics because they feel tyrannized by their because they feel tyrannized by their because they feel tyrannized by their self. So uh you know I that's something self. So uh you know I that's something self. So uh you know I that's something I explored in the book and in my own I explored in the book and in my own I explored in the book and in my own mixed feelings about the self but mixed feelings about the self but mixed feelings about the self but there's a sense of uh liberation I felt there's a sense of uh liberation I felt there's a sense of uh liberation I felt in that in that psychedelic experience in that in that psychedelic experience in that in that psychedelic experience when the self disappeared uh it felt when the self disappeared uh it felt when the self disappeared uh it felt like so right and one of the things that like so right and one of the things that like so right and one of the things that happens when the self dissolves is that happens when the self dissolves is that happens when the self dissolves is that the walls come down you know the ego is the walls come down you know the ego is the walls come down you know the ego is a is a defensive structure among other a is a defensive structure among other a is a defensive structure among other things and it uh puts a wall between us things and it uh puts a wall between us things and it uh puts a wall between us and other people, us and nature, us and and other people, us and nature, us and and other people, us and nature, us and you know everything out there and the you know everything out there and the you know everything out there and the experience you have and this is true in experience you have and this is true in experience you have and this is true in meditation too and I I have to say I've meditation too and I I have to say I've meditation too and I I have to say I've only had glimpses of it in meditation um only had glimpses of it in meditation um only had glimpses of it in meditation um there is a sense of merging with there is a sense of merging with there is a sense of merging with something larger uh that happens when something larger uh that happens when something larger uh that happens when those walls come down and for me in that those walls come down and for me in that those walls come down and for me in that psychedelic experience it was a piece of psychedelic experience it was a piece of psychedelic experience it was a piece of music in this Bach unaccompanied cello music in this Bach unaccompanied cello music in this Bach unaccompanied cello suite and the subject object suite and the subject object suite and the subject object distinction fell away and I just was distinction fell away and I just was distinction fell away and I just was that piece of music and it was the most that piece of music and it was the most that piece of music and it was the most profound and beautiful experience of profound and beautiful experience of profound and beautiful experience of music I'd ever had. But some people music I'd ever had. But some people music I'd ever had. But some people merge with nature, some people merge merge with nature, some people merge merge with nature, some people merge with, you know, others and and they they with, you know, others and and they they with, you know, others and and they they feel like they're connected to to others feel like they're connected to to others feel like they're connected to to others in this, you know, bath of love. So, in this, you know, bath of love. So, in this, you know, bath of love. So, some very interesting things happen when some very interesting things happen when some very interesting things happen when the self dissolves, but we're also the self dissolves, but we're also the self dissolves, but we're also afraid of it because it's kind of like a afraid of it because it's kind of like a afraid of it because it's kind of like a a death practice to let yourself go. The a death practice to let yourself go. 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Um, and you know, I was it's confusing. Um, and you know, I was it's confusing. Um, and you know, I was just I I host these um weekly Q&A just I I host these um weekly Q&A just I I host these um weekly Q&A sessions with my, you know, app sessions with my, you know, app sessions with my, you know, app subscribers and almost every week subscribers and almost every week subscribers and almost every week somebody's like, "Can you just explain somebody's like, "Can you just explain somebody's like, "Can you just explain this whole self or non-self non-duality this whole self or non-self non-duality this whole self or non-self non-duality thing again?" And I'm always happy to thing again?" And I'm always happy to thing again?" And I'm always happy to try in my ham-handed way. And one of the try in my ham-handed way. And one of the try in my ham-handed way. And one of the things I always make sure to say is, things I always make sure to say is, things I always make sure to say is, "Don't worry if this doesn't make sense. "Don't worry if this doesn't make sense. "Don't worry if this doesn't make sense. Kind of let it wash over you." uh in my Kind of let it wash over you." uh in my Kind of let it wash over you." uh in my experience just kind of letting the idea experience just kind of letting the idea experience just kind of letting the idea just letting myself marinate in the idea just letting myself marinate in the idea just letting myself marinate in the idea over time allowed it to make sense a over time allowed it to make sense a over time allowed it to make sense a little bit more and even then it only I little bit more and even then it only I little bit more and even then it only I have like episodic moments of clarity have like episodic moments of clarity have like episodic moments of clarity but but on one specific point I just but but on one specific point I just but but on one specific point I just want to make a build and see what you want to make a build and see what you want to make a build and see what you think or do a build and see what you think or do a build and see what you think or do a build and see what you think you you were kind of answering the think you you were kind of answering the think you you were kind of answering the question like so what why whether the question like so what why whether the question like so what why whether the self is real or not can feel hopelessly self is real or not can feel hopelessly self is real or not can feel hopelessly you know abstract act at first at least. you know abstract act at first at least. you know abstract act at first at least. But it's not um for one reason that you But it's not um for one reason that you But it's not um for one reason that you articulated which is, you know, if articulated which is, you know, if articulated which is, you know, if you're not so owned by the ego, then you're not so owned by the ego, then you're not so owned by the ego, then there's much more room for everybody and there's much more room for everybody and there's much more room for everybody and everything else. You know, the the walls everything else. You know, the the walls everything else. You know, the the walls come down and and we know what, you come down and and we know what, you come down and and we know what, you know, the the essential ingredient know, the the essential ingredient know, the the essential ingredient really for human flourishing is contact really for human flourishing is contact really for human flourishing is contact and connection and um with other people and connection and um with other people and connection and um with other people and with the world. So yes, there's that and with the world. So yes, there's that and with the world. So yes, there's that and but that even that can sound a and but that even that can sound a and but that even that can sound a little grandiose and you know it's the little grandiose and you know it's the little grandiose and you know it's the the apex predator of all spiritual the apex predator of all spiritual the apex predator of all spiritual cliches is oneness with the universe and cliches is oneness with the universe and cliches is oneness with the universe and that you know it can sound a little like that you know it can sound a little like that you know it can sound a little like hard to get a toe hold in. But so I hard to get a toe hold in. But so I hard to get a toe hold in. But so I would offer something a little bit more would offer something a little bit more would offer something a little bit more modest which is when you learn to not modest which is when you learn to not modest which is when you learn to not take everything that comes up in your take everything that comes up in your take everything that comes up in your mind so personally and so seriously well mind so personally and so seriously well mind so personally and so seriously well then you can work with it more. So if if then you can work with it more. So if if then you can work with it more. So if if you move from viewing any anger that you move from viewing any anger that you move from viewing any anger that comes up in the mind as my anger, I'm comes up in the mind as my anger, I'm comes up in the mind as my anger, I'm I'm like this. I'm always going to be I'm like this. I'm always going to be I'm like this. I'm always going to be like this. I feel shame about being like like this. I feel shame about being like like this. I feel shame about being like this. I can't get out of this anger to this. I can't get out of this anger to this. I can't get out of this anger to no, this is just a um a meteorological no, this is just a um a meteorological no, this is just a um a meteorological system moving through inherently system moving through inherently system moving through inherently temporary, not mine, or as one Buddhist temporary, not mine, or as one Buddhist temporary, not mine, or as one Buddhist monk put it, to call it mine is a monk put it, to call it mine is a monk put it, to call it mine is a misappropriation of public property. misappropriation of public property. misappropriation of public property. Well, it just becomes much more Well, it just becomes much more Well, it just becomes much more workable. So I'm curious what what you workable. So I'm curious what what you workable. So I'm curious what what you think about that. think about that. think about that. >> I do. I I totally agree. Um Joseph >> I do. I I totally agree. Um Joseph >> I do. I I totally agree. Um Joseph Goldstein, you know, puts this has a Goldstein, you know, puts this has a Goldstein, you know, puts this has a very nice way of dealing with this, very nice way of dealing with this, very nice way of dealing with this, which is put it in the passive voice. which is put it in the passive voice. which is put it in the passive voice. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Uh instead of saying I am anger angry, >> Uh instead of saying I am anger angry, >> Uh instead of saying I am anger angry, uh anger is happening, anger is being uh anger is happening, anger is being uh anger is happening, anger is being known. And suddenly you've separated known. And suddenly you've separated known. And suddenly you've separated that you know that tight identification. that you know that tight identification. that you know that tight identification. It's interesting. We work very hard to It's interesting. We work very hard to It's interesting. We work very hard to identify ourselves with our thoughts. identify ourselves with our thoughts. identify ourselves with our thoughts. But one of the things that happens in But one of the things that happens in But one of the things that happens in meditation is you find these thoughts meditation is you find these thoughts meditation is you find these thoughts happening on their own. M and and to me happening on their own. M and and to me happening on their own. M and and to me that's one of the most interesting that's one of the most interesting that's one of the most interesting things about it is that tight uh things about it is that tight uh things about it is that tight uh identity of me and my thoughts falls identity of me and my thoughts falls identity of me and my thoughts falls apart really quickly for me and and apart really quickly for me and and apart really quickly for me and and things are just popping up that I don't things are just popping up that I don't things are just popping up that I don't want to think or or didn't think I want to think or or didn't think I want to think or or didn't think I thought and that's kind of I don't know thought and that's kind of I don't know thought and that's kind of I don't know one of the things I find interesting one of the things I find interesting one of the things I find interesting about meditation is it gets you in touch about meditation is it gets you in touch about meditation is it gets you in touch with the sheer strangeness of your mind with the sheer strangeness of your mind with the sheer strangeness of your mind and and and how much and and and how much and and and how much >> how much is going on and that you >> how much is going on and that you >> how much is going on and that you realize that consciousness is like realize that consciousness is like realize that consciousness is like probably the tip of the iceberg. There probably the tip of the iceberg. There probably the tip of the iceberg. There are things there's a lot I mean and we are things there's a lot I mean and we are things there's a lot I mean and we know this actually it's not a guess know this actually it's not a guess know this actually it's not a guess because the brain is busy monitor you because the brain is busy monitor you because the brain is busy monitor you know does all sorts of things know does all sorts of things know does all sorts of things automatically. It's kind of incredible automatically. It's kind of incredible automatically. It's kind of incredible what it does automatically, right? It's what it does automatically, right? It's what it does automatically, right? It's it's, you know, regulating your heart it's, you know, regulating your heart it's, you know, regulating your heart rate, your blood pressure, your blood rate, your blood pressure, your blood rate, your blood pressure, your blood gases. Uh it's perceiving lots of things gases. Uh it's perceiving lots of things gases. Uh it's perceiving lots of things in your environment without rising to in your environment without rising to in your environment without rising to your awareness. The I think the question your awareness. The I think the question your awareness. The I think the question is why isn't it all automatic? Why is is why isn't it all automatic? Why is is why isn't it all automatic? Why is there this space of awareness for you there this space of awareness for you there this space of awareness for you know, which I think is for know, which I think is for know, which I think is for decisionmaking? But anyway, things are decisionmaking? But anyway, things are decisionmaking? But anyway, things are bubbling up from there. And there's a bubbling up from there. And there's a bubbling up from there. And there's a there's a scientist I I interviewed there's a scientist I I interviewed there's a scientist I I interviewed quite a few times named uh Kina Kristoff quite a few times named uh Kina Kristoff quite a few times named uh Kina Kristoff who's a psychologist at UBC and she who's a psychologist at UBC and she who's a psychologist at UBC and she studies experienced meditators studies experienced meditators studies experienced meditators since they're expert at noticing what's since they're expert at noticing what's since they're expert at noticing what's going on in their mind to see she asked going on in their mind to see she asked going on in their mind to see she asked them she puts them in an MRI and says them she puts them in an MRI and says them she puts them in an MRI and says all right meditate try to empty your all right meditate try to empty your all right meditate try to empty your mind which she says people can only do mind which she says people can only do mind which she says people can only do for like 10 seconds. Um she she said her for like 10 seconds. Um she she said her for like 10 seconds. Um she she said her biggest discovery about meditation is biggest discovery about meditation is biggest discovery about meditation is that you know it only works for short that you know it only works for short that you know it only works for short amounts of time in her experience. amounts of time in her experience. amounts of time in her experience. Anyway, so press a button when a thought Anyway, so press a button when a thought Anyway, so press a button when a thought occurs. And what she's found really occurs. And what she's found really occurs. And what she's found really interesting is there's 4 seconds that interesting is there's 4 seconds that interesting is there's 4 seconds that elapse which is you know a year in brain elapse which is you know a year in brain elapse which is you know a year in brain time between uh her spotting activity in time between uh her spotting activity in time between uh her spotting activity in the hippocampus and the awareness of the hippocampus and the awareness of the hippocampus and the awareness of that idea, memory, thought, whatever. So that idea, memory, thought, whatever. So that idea, memory, thought, whatever. So there's some process and it's elaborate there's some process and it's elaborate there's some process and it's elaborate and slow by which unconscious material and slow by which unconscious material and slow by which unconscious material forces its way into our awareness when forces its way into our awareness when forces its way into our awareness when we've when we think we've kind of we've when we think we've kind of we've when we think we've kind of cleared the decks. Um we don't know cleared the decks. Um we don't know cleared the decks. Um we don't know what's happening but something's what's happening but something's what's happening but something's happening and some stuff's getting up happening and some stuff's getting up happening and some stuff's getting up and through and some is not. So, it's and through and some is not. So, it's and through and some is not. So, it's just another example of the um the sheer just another example of the um the sheer just another example of the um the sheer strangeness of how our minds work. strangeness of how our minds work. strangeness of how our minds work. >> I'm going to say something else and see >> I'm going to say something else and see >> I'm going to say something else and see if you agree with to see if you agree if you agree with to see if you agree if you agree with to see if you agree with me. Um I I I'm completely with you with me. Um I I I'm completely with you with me. Um I I I'm completely with you on the strangeness of it. But again, my on the strangeness of it. But again, my on the strangeness of it. But again, my mind goes right to the liberative mind goes right to the liberative mind goes right to the liberative potential, the the utility of it. And potential, the the utility of it. And potential, the the utility of it. And for me, it's not only the awe that gets for me, it's not only the awe that gets for me, it's not only the awe that gets produced when I see the strangeness of produced when I see the strangeness of produced when I see the strangeness of my own mind and how involuntary my own mind and how involuntary my own mind and how involuntary so much of it is. And by the way, just so much of it is. And by the way, just so much of it is. And by the way, just side note on the stuff that does feel side note on the stuff that does feel side note on the stuff that does feel voluntary, like the directed thinking, voluntary, like the directed thinking, voluntary, like the directed thinking, I'm now going to think about X. Well, I'm now going to think about X. Well, I'm now going to think about X. Well, upstream from that, I mean, how upstream from that, I mean, how upstream from that, I mean, how voluntary was the impulse to to decide? voluntary was the impulse to to decide? voluntary was the impulse to to decide? But back on point, the liberating aspect But back on point, the liberating aspect But back on point, the liberating aspect here is to me at least, and I'm I'm and here is to me at least, and I'm I'm and here is to me at least, and I'm I'm and I'm I'm checking this with you, is well, I'm I'm checking this with you, is well, I'm I'm checking this with you, is well, if so many of my thoughts and emotions if so many of my thoughts and emotions if so many of my thoughts and emotions are involuntary, well then can't I drop are involuntary, well then can't I drop are involuntary, well then can't I drop the shame that I feel around a bigoted the shame that I feel around a bigoted the shame that I feel around a bigoted thought or a angry or greedy thought. I thought or a angry or greedy thought. I thought or a angry or greedy thought. I mean, I I often experience some judgment mean, I I often experience some judgment mean, I I often experience some judgment or some, you know, some judgment about or some, you know, some judgment about or some, you know, some judgment about somebody else, some uncharitable somebody else, some uncharitable somebody else, some uncharitable thought, some greed or or unh wholesome thought, some greed or or unh wholesome thought, some greed or or unh wholesome unspeakable impulse that arises in my unspeakable impulse that arises in my unspeakable impulse that arises in my mind and then and then I tell myself a mind and then and then I tell myself a mind and then and then I tell myself a whole story about who I am because I've whole story about who I am because I've whole story about who I am because I've just seen this thing flit through the just seen this thing flit through the just seen this thing flit through the mind. But if I can view it all as mind. But if I can view it all as mind. But if I can view it all as nature, well then, as uh to quote nature, well then, as uh to quote nature, well then, as uh to quote another Buddhist monk, it's it's it's another Buddhist monk, it's it's it's another Buddhist monk, it's it's it's not my fault that this stuff is not my fault that this stuff is not my fault that this stuff is happening, but it is my responsibility. happening, but it is my responsibility. happening, but it is my responsibility. So that doesn't let me off the hook, but So that doesn't let me off the hook, but So that doesn't let me off the hook, but it it it does help me uncoil out of it it it does help me uncoil out of it it it does help me uncoil out of shame. shame. shame. >> Am I making any sense to you? >> Am I making any sense to you? >> Am I making any sense to you? >> Well, it Yeah, it does. It kind of >> Well, it Yeah, it does. It kind of >> Well, it Yeah, it does. It kind of weakening that link of identity of you weakening that link of identity of you weakening that link of identity of you and it and that to the extent you see and it and that to the extent you see and it and that to the extent you see these thoughts as as passing through. I these thoughts as as passing through. I these thoughts as as passing through. I think it helps and you're less invested think it helps and you're less invested think it helps and you're less invested in them. But in terms of responsibility, in them. But in terms of responsibility, in them. But in terms of responsibility, I mean, that's interesting. I mean, the I mean, that's interesting. I mean, the I mean, that's interesting. I mean, the whole kind of ethical implications of whole kind of ethical implications of whole kind of ethical implications of this, I I I'm not sure I totally this, I I I'm not sure I totally this, I I I'm not sure I totally understand. Um, I think that you could understand. Um, I think that you could understand. Um, I think that you could look at all this and think, oh, this is look at all this and think, oh, this is look at all this and think, oh, this is a disowning of responsibility, except a disowning of responsibility, except a disowning of responsibility, except what happens in the in the private space what happens in the in the private space what happens in the in the private space of our own minds and and I haven't used of our own minds and and I haven't used of our own minds and and I haven't used the word private to this point, but I the word private to this point, but I the word private to this point, but I think it's very important to this idea think it's very important to this idea think it's very important to this idea of consciousness that it is a zone of of consciousness that it is a zone of of consciousness that it is a zone of privacy. M anything goes in there you privacy. M anything goes in there you privacy. M anything goes in there you know it's whether you act on things or know it's whether you act on things or know it's whether you act on things or not that is m that's when ethics enters not that is m that's when ethics enters not that is m that's when ethics enters the picture when there's behavior the picture when there's behavior the picture when there's behavior involved and you know having bigoted involved and you know having bigoted involved and you know having bigoted thoughts or ugly thoughts or or uh thoughts or ugly thoughts or or uh thoughts or ugly thoughts or or uh unacceptable fantasies that's what unacceptable fantasies that's what unacceptable fantasies that's what consciousness is good for. consciousness is good for. consciousness is good for. So I I'm kind of like let it rip you So I I'm kind of like let it rip you So I I'm kind of like let it rip you know as long as it stays in there. know as long as it stays in there. know as long as it stays in there. >> Yeah. I think where it gets tricky is um >> Yeah. I think where it gets tricky is um >> Yeah. I think where it gets tricky is um you might under the influence of enough you might under the influence of enough you might under the influence of enough meditation notice that you have a a meditation notice that you have a a meditation notice that you have a a pronounced and hereto for unseen bias pronounced and hereto for unseen bias pronounced and hereto for unseen bias that you've been acting out of your that you've been acting out of your that you've been acting out of your whole life and so there there you do whole life and so there there you do whole life and so there there you do then have some responsibility then have some responsibility then have some responsibility >> to deal with it. >> to deal with it. >> to deal with it. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yeah. And let it go. But the ability to >> Yeah. And let it go. But the ability to >> Yeah. And let it go. But the ability to let thoughts go is huge. I mean, I think let thoughts go is huge. I mean, I think let thoughts go is huge. I mean, I think that uh so many of our problems and that uh so many of our problems and that uh so many of our problems and mental health challenges revolve around mental health challenges revolve around mental health challenges revolve around rumination. The fact that we get stuck rumination. The fact that we get stuck rumination. The fact that we get stuck in these circles of thought and they're in these circles of thought and they're in these circles of thought and they're often self-critical, but breaking that often self-critical, but breaking that often self-critical, but breaking that breaking out of those circles, I think, breaking out of those circles, I think, breaking out of those circles, I think, is is really important. And meditation is is really important. And meditation is is really important. And meditation can help and and we also know can help and and we also know can help and and we also know psychedelics can help. I mean it's it's psychedelics can help. I mean it's it's psychedelics can help. I mean it's it's it's very interesting to watch how it's very interesting to watch how it's very interesting to watch how psychedelic therapy has evolved to uh psychedelic therapy has evolved to uh psychedelic therapy has evolved to uh address rumination and rumination is at address rumination and rumination is at address rumination and rumination is at the basis not only of depression and the basis not only of depression and the basis not only of depression and anxiety and OCD but also addiction. anxiety and OCD but also addiction. anxiety and OCD but also addiction. Addiction is a ruminative behavior. It's Addiction is a ruminative behavior. It's Addiction is a ruminative behavior. It's very repetitive. It's out of our very repetitive. It's out of our very repetitive. It's out of our control. And um there's a there's an control. And um there's a there's an control. And um there's a there's an interesting study going on at Harvard interesting study going on at Harvard interesting study going on at Harvard now looking at um rumination as a as a now looking at um rumination as a as a now looking at um rumination as a as a root cause of uh a variety of different root cause of uh a variety of different root cause of uh a variety of different mental illnesses uh using psychedelics mental illnesses uh using psychedelics mental illnesses uh using psychedelics to see can you can you break those to see can you can you break those to see can you can you break those patterns. It's interesting. I I had a patterns. It's interesting. I I had a patterns. It's interesting. I I had a conversation with a psychiatrist uh a conversation with a psychiatrist uh a conversation with a psychiatrist uh a few years ago and I was reporting on few years ago and I was reporting on few years ago and I was reporting on psychedelic therapy and its value and um psychedelic therapy and its value and um psychedelic therapy and its value and um for how to change your mind and I said for how to change your mind and I said for how to change your mind and I said isn't this a little suspicious that the isn't this a little suspicious that the isn't this a little suspicious that the same drugs psilocybin is being used to same drugs psilocybin is being used to same drugs psilocybin is being used to treat anxiety, depression, OCD, treat anxiety, depression, OCD, treat anxiety, depression, OCD, addiction, addiction, addiction, um eating disorders um eating disorders um eating disorders and uh it seems like too it seems like a and uh it seems like too it seems like a and uh it seems like too it seems like a panacea and he said and this is a guy panacea and he said and this is a guy panacea and he said and this is a guy who'd been head of the National who'd been head of the National who'd been head of the National Institute of Mental Health, a Institute of Mental Health, a Institute of Mental Health, a psychiatrist very prominent uh and he psychiatrist very prominent uh and he psychiatrist very prominent uh and he said, "Well, how do you know they're all said, "Well, how do you know they're all said, "Well, how do you know they're all different? Maybe they're all symptoms or different? Maybe they're all symptoms or different? Maybe they're all symptoms or manifestations of the same stuck brain." manifestations of the same stuck brain." manifestations of the same stuck brain." >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And of course, what that brain is stuck >> And of course, what that brain is stuck >> And of course, what that brain is stuck in is is rumination. in is is rumination. in is is rumination. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, I think a danger of meditation is >> So, I think a danger of meditation is >> So, I think a danger of meditation is that freed of external distractions, that freed of external distractions, that freed of external distractions, some people ruminate some people ruminate some people ruminate um you know, during meditation and um you know, during meditation and um you know, during meditation and really get stuck. uh and that's you know really get stuck. uh and that's you know really get stuck. uh and that's you know it's counterproductive but it it can it's counterproductive but it it can it's counterproductive but it it can happen. happen. happen. >> I would say that's not necessarily a >> I would say that's not necessarily a >> I would say that's not necessarily a danger of meditation properly danger of meditation properly danger of meditation properly understood. I think it's a danger of understood. I think it's a danger of understood. I think it's a danger of meditation without proper instruction. meditation without proper instruction. meditation without proper instruction. >> I think you're probably right. Although >> I think you're probably right. Although >> I think you're probably right. Although the tendency will surface you just know the tendency will surface you just know the tendency will surface you just know how to deal with it. how to deal with it. how to deal with it. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But what do you recommend for people who >> But what do you recommend for people who >> But what do you recommend for people who get stuck in ruminative thoughts on get stuck in ruminative thoughts on get stuck in ruminative thoughts on meditation? meditation? meditation? >> Go back to the breath. >> Go back to the breath. >> Go back to the breath. >> Yeah. Well, first the thing I would say >> Yeah. Well, first the thing I would say >> Yeah. Well, first the thing I would say is it's completely natural. You don't is it's completely natural. You don't is it's completely natural. You don't need to beat yourself up for it. you're need to beat yourself up for it. you're need to beat yourself up for it. you're not the moment you've noticed it is not the moment you've noticed it is not the moment you've noticed it is success. Even if it you noticed it after success. Even if it you noticed it after success. Even if it you noticed it after 25 minutes of a 30-minut session, that's 25 minutes of a 30-minut session, that's 25 minutes of a 30-minut session, that's still a good meditation session. That's still a good meditation session. That's still a good meditation session. That's more metacognition. That's more more metacognition. That's more more metacognition. That's more self-awareness um self and scare quotes self-awareness um self and scare quotes self-awareness um self and scare quotes uh than most people get in a lifetime. uh than most people get in a lifetime. uh than most people get in a lifetime. So yeah, I I set the bar really low. Um So yeah, I I set the bar really low. Um So yeah, I I set the bar really low. Um and so if you if you're noticing that and so if you if you're noticing that and so if you if you're noticing that you keep ruminating in meditation, I you keep ruminating in meditation, I you keep ruminating in meditation, I hear a good practice. It's like hear a good practice. It's like hear a good practice. It's like >> good. >> good. >> good. >> That's the point. >> That's the point. >> That's the point. >> I'll I'll tell my wife because she >> I'll I'll tell my wife because she >> I'll I'll tell my wife because she struggles with that. You know, we struggles with that. You know, we struggles with that. You know, we meditate together and I'll say after, meditate together and I'll say after, meditate together and I'll say after, "How was it?" And she's, "Oh, you know, "How was it?" And she's, "Oh, you know, "How was it?" And she's, "Oh, you know, I was stuck on this and this and this." I was stuck on this and this and this." I was stuck on this and this and this." And I'll tell her, "Well, good. You you And I'll tell her, "Well, good. You you And I'll tell her, "Well, good. You you recognize that you were stuck on this recognize that you were stuck on this recognize that you were stuck on this and this and this." Yeah, that's um and this and this." Yeah, that's um and this and this." Yeah, that's um there are further refinements that a um there are further refinements that a um there are further refinements that a um you know a Joseph Goldstein or a Sharon you know a Joseph Goldstein or a Sharon you know a Joseph Goldstein or a Sharon Salsberg could provide obviously cuz and Salsberg could provide obviously cuz and Salsberg could provide obviously cuz and I'm not nearly at that level, but my I'm not nearly at that level, but my I'm not nearly at that level, but my reflex response to your wife would be reflex response to your wife would be reflex response to your wife would be gold star, you know, like that's gold star, you know, like that's gold star, you know, like that's >> you're doing it right, keep going. Um >> you're doing it right, keep going. Um >> you're doing it right, keep going. Um >> I uh you know I I spent time with Joan >> I uh you know I I spent time with Joan >> I uh you know I I spent time with Joan Halifax, the Zen um priest uh in in the Halifax, the Zen um priest uh in in the Halifax, the Zen um priest uh in in the last part of this book and she had last part of this book and she had last part of this book and she had described Upupaya, her retreat center, described Upupaya, her retreat center, described Upupaya, her retreat center, as a as a factory for the deconstruction as a as a factory for the deconstruction as a as a factory for the deconstruction of selves. And I was very curious how of selves. And I was very curious how of selves. And I was very curious how that happens. that happens. that happens. >> And I asked her how, you know, how do >> And I asked her how, you know, how do >> And I asked her how, you know, how do people get to that point? And these are people get to that point? And these are people get to that point? And these are people who come for a retreat for people who come for a retreat for people who come for a retreat for several weeks. Some of them come for several weeks. Some of them come for several weeks. Some of them come for years and it's Zen practice so it's got years and it's Zen practice so it's got years and it's Zen practice so it's got the least amount of support really. Um the least amount of support really. Um the least amount of support really. Um and you know you're just staring at a and you know you're just staring at a and you know you're just staring at a wall. Uh and she said I said what do wall. Uh and she said I said what do wall. Uh and she said I said what do people think about and she said they um people think about and she said they um people think about and she said they um well they ruminate and they plan and she well they ruminate and they plan and she well they ruminate and they plan and she said after about 3 days they are so sick said after about 3 days they are so sick said after about 3 days they are so sick of the reruns in their minds of the reruns in their minds of the reruns in their minds that they drop in. that they drop in. that they drop in. >> Yeah. And there's some other things that >> Yeah. And there's some other things that >> Yeah. And there's some other things that are done to to facilitate this, but she are done to to facilitate this, but she are done to to facilitate this, but she just thinks it's sheer amount of time just thinks it's sheer amount of time just thinks it's sheer amount of time spent in front of in the Zeno in front spent in front of in the Zeno in front spent in front of in the Zeno in front of the wall and you just get so bored of the wall and you just get so bored of the wall and you just get so bored with yourself uh that you open up to the with yourself uh that you open up to the with yourself uh that you open up to the group uh and the self slips away. Um but group uh and the self slips away. Um but group uh and the self slips away. Um but she could time exactly when it happened she could time exactly when it happened she could time exactly when it happened for most people. for most people. for most people. >> I love Roshi Joan. She's been on the >> I love Roshi Joan. She's been on the >> I love Roshi Joan. She's been on the show a bunch. I'll drop some links in show a bunch. I'll drop some links in show a bunch. I'll drop some links in the show notes to my conversation. the show notes to my conversation. the show notes to my conversation. >> She taught me a lot. So I'd be curious >> She taught me a lot. So I'd be curious >> She taught me a lot. So I'd be curious and there there are a bunch of like and there there are a bunch of like and there there are a bunch of like practices that emerge in the book that I practices that emerge in the book that I practices that emerge in the book that I that I want to talk about with you. But that I want to talk about with you. But that I want to talk about with you. But before we go there to the extent that before we go there to the extent that before we go there to the extent that you're comfortable and I know you said you're comfortable and I know you said you're comfortable and I know you said earlier you don't want to give it all earlier you don't want to give it all earlier you don't want to give it all away but there is this kind of climactic away but there is this kind of climactic away but there is this kind of climactic scene in the book and the chapter is scene in the book and the chapter is scene in the book and the chapter is called uh the cave uh where you're called uh the cave uh where you're called uh the cave uh where you're meditating in a cave. So um what can you meditating in a cave. So um what can you meditating in a cave. So um what can you tell us about that experience? tell us about that experience? tell us about that experience? >> Oh I'm happy to tell you anything about >> Oh I'm happy to tell you anything about >> Oh I'm happy to tell you anything about it. Just kidding. If you're reading this it. Just kidding. If you're reading this it. Just kidding. If you're reading this book because of suspense, uh, it's not book because of suspense, uh, it's not book because of suspense, uh, it's not going to work. going to work. going to work. Um, well, as the, you know, I mentioned Um, well, as the, you know, I mentioned Um, well, as the, you know, I mentioned the book kind of starts with science and the book kind of starts with science and the book kind of starts with science and there's a lot of stuff on the science of there's a lot of stuff on the science of there's a lot of stuff on the science of consciousness and the the the challenges consciousness and the the the challenges consciousness and the the the challenges that it faces and and um, it's a that it faces and and um, it's a that it faces and and um, it's a relatively new science and we figured relatively new science and we figured relatively new science and we figured out certain things about consciousness, out certain things about consciousness, out certain things about consciousness, but not the hard problem remains pretty but not the hard problem remains pretty but not the hard problem remains pretty hard. And then I went looking for other hard. And then I went looking for other hard. And then I went looking for other ways of knowing and one of them is ways of knowing and one of them is ways of knowing and one of them is literature. Uh you know novelists and literature. Uh you know novelists and literature. Uh you know novelists and poets know an awful lot about poets know an awful lot about poets know an awful lot about consciousness. Um and I interview a consciousness. Um and I interview a consciousness. Um and I interview a stream of consciousness writer and talk stream of consciousness writer and talk stream of consciousness writer and talk about Joyce and Virginia Wolf and um about Joyce and Virginia Wolf and um about Joyce and Virginia Wolf and um that's where we went for a couple that's where we went for a couple that's where we went for a couple hundred years to understand the hundred years to understand the hundred years to understand the consciousness of other people uh because consciousness of other people uh because consciousness of other people uh because novelists can penetrate it and poets novelists can penetrate it and poets novelists can penetrate it and poets too. But I also knew that Buddhists uh too. But I also knew that Buddhists uh too. But I also knew that Buddhists uh knew important things about knew important things about knew important things about consciousness and had been thinking consciousness and had been thinking consciousness and had been thinking about it for a long time. So, I thought about it for a long time. So, I thought about it for a long time. So, I thought I would reach out to Roshi Joan, who I'd I would reach out to Roshi Joan, who I'd I would reach out to Roshi Joan, who I'd met a couple times um and and really met a couple times um and and really met a couple times um and and really liked and admired. And um I asked her if liked and admired. And um I asked her if liked and admired. And um I asked her if I could come to Upupaya and hang out for I could come to Upupaya and hang out for I could come to Upupaya and hang out for a while. And I thought what I would do a while. And I thought what I would do a while. And I thought what I would do is just kind of join the the the retreat is just kind of join the the the retreat is just kind of join the the the retreat members and the and the practicing, you members and the and the practicing, you members and the and the practicing, you know, the the aspiring monks and get know, the the aspiring monks and get know, the the aspiring monks and get into their routine uh and meditate with into their routine uh and meditate with into their routine uh and meditate with them. But she said, "No, I I've got a them. But she said, "No, I I've got a them. But she said, "No, I I've got a much better idea for you. We're going to much better idea for you. We're going to much better idea for you. We're going to go up to the refuge, which was this go up to the refuge, which was this go up to the refuge, which was this place that Upupaya owns uh that's um place that Upupaya owns uh that's um place that Upupaya owns uh that's um couple hours north in the mountains, couple hours north in the mountains, couple hours north in the mountains, very isolated, off the grid. And when very isolated, off the grid. And when very isolated, off the grid. And when you go there, there's a series of huts you go there, there's a series of huts you go there, there's a series of huts um where she some of she sends students um where she some of she sends students um where she some of she sends students and she'll send people up there and and she'll send people up there and and she'll send people up there and you're living without, you know, you're living without, you know, you're living without, you know, plumbing or electricity for um for years plumbing or electricity for um for years plumbing or electricity for um for years at a time. And um she said, "And I think at a time. And um she said, "And I think at a time. And um she said, "And I think you should stay in the cave." And I'm you should stay in the cave." And I'm you should stay in the cave." And I'm like, "Cave?" And she said, "Don't like, "Cave?" And she said, "Don't like, "Cave?" And she said, "Don't worry, it's a five-star cave. You'll be worry, it's a five-star cave. You'll be worry, it's a five-star cave. You'll be comfortable." comfortable." comfortable." Which wasn't quite true. Uh and the cave Which wasn't quite true. Uh and the cave Which wasn't quite true. Uh and the cave was another long hike from this little was another long hike from this little was another long hike from this little village of huts, uh where she has a village of huts, uh where she has a village of huts, uh where she has a house and spends a lot of time. It's a house and spends a lot of time. It's a house and spends a lot of time. It's a beautiful place. And so I went into this beautiful place. And so I went into this beautiful place. And so I went into this cave and I was living there for a few cave and I was living there for a few cave and I was living there for a few days. And it was a it turned out to be a days. And it was a it turned out to be a days. And it was a it turned out to be a very profound experience. Um I was so very profound experience. Um I was so very profound experience. Um I was so far off the grid that I could almost far off the grid that I could almost far off the grid that I could almost feel the absence of electromagnetic feel the absence of electromagnetic feel the absence of electromagnetic waves. You know, there was like there waves. You know, there was like there waves. You know, there was like there was a profound silence and I felt like was a profound silence and I felt like was a profound silence and I felt like the world had really dropped away. I had the world had really dropped away. I had the world had really dropped away. I had nothing to do. Uh my phone obviously nothing to do. Uh my phone obviously nothing to do. Uh my phone obviously wouldn't work. Uh I and I spent my time wouldn't work. Uh I and I spent my time wouldn't work. Uh I and I spent my time um you know sweeping the threshold and um you know sweeping the threshold and um you know sweeping the threshold and making tea. There was a meditation making tea. There was a meditation making tea. There was a meditation platform. There was a single bed. There platform. There was a single bed. There platform. There was a single bed. There was a battery hooked up to a solar uh was a battery hooked up to a solar uh was a battery hooked up to a solar uh array so I could get some power to read array so I could get some power to read array so I could get some power to read at night. Um and there was a little camp at night. Um and there was a little camp at night. Um and there was a little camp stove and 5gallon jug of water. And uh I stove and 5gallon jug of water. And uh I stove and 5gallon jug of water. And uh I just kind of sunk into this silence and just kind of sunk into this silence and just kind of sunk into this silence and I spent a lot of time meditating and um I spent a lot of time meditating and um I spent a lot of time meditating and um I was able to meditate for hours at a I was able to meditate for hours at a I was able to meditate for hours at a time which I'd never been able to do and time which I'd never been able to do and time which I'd never been able to do and I just felt this kind of sense of time I just felt this kind of sense of time I just felt this kind of sense of time you know forcehortening. I mean I'm you know forcehortening. I mean I'm you know forcehortening. I mean I'm someone who's normally in the future you someone who's normally in the future you someone who's normally in the future you know the the near future worrying about know the the near future worrying about know the the near future worrying about what has to happen what I have to do and what has to happen what I have to do and what has to happen what I have to do and I found the future falling away and I I found the future falling away and I I found the future falling away and I found the past falling away. And I found the past falling away. And I found the past falling away. And I realize when you when your sense of the realize when you when your sense of the realize when you when your sense of the past and the future are not present, past and the future are not present, past and the future are not present, your self shrinks. I mean we we don't your self shrinks. I mean we we don't your self shrinks. I mean we we don't have a self unless we can connect it to have a self unless we can connect it to have a self unless we can connect it to a story of the person to which all this a story of the person to which all this a story of the person to which all this happened and then uh and then the person happened and then uh and then the person happened and then uh and then the person who has these goals or objectives. I who has these goals or objectives. I who has these goals or objectives. I mean that's the self is is a product of mean that's the self is is a product of mean that's the self is is a product of time in many ways. and that kind of fell time in many ways. and that kind of fell time in many ways. and that kind of fell away and I um I just sort of felt as away and I um I just sort of felt as away and I um I just sort of felt as though I was in touch with uh I was just though I was in touch with uh I was just though I was in touch with uh I was just more present to nature. Um it was more present to nature. Um it was more present to nature. Um it was interesting at a certain point my interesting at a certain point my interesting at a certain point my routine became a meditation. the routine became a meditation. the routine became a meditation. the sweeping of the of the threshold, the um sweeping of the of the threshold, the um sweeping of the of the threshold, the um you know the digging of pit toilets in you know the digging of pit toilets in you know the digging of pit toilets in the woods, the making of a a pot of tea, the woods, the making of a a pot of tea, the woods, the making of a a pot of tea, all this became very ritualized and was all this became very ritualized and was all this became very ritualized and was in a way I was more present then than I in a way I was more present then than I in a way I was more present then than I was when I was meditating. And when I was when I was meditating. And when I was when I was meditating. And when I was meditating, I was going off in all was meditating, I was going off in all was meditating, I was going off in all these crazy places and all this strange these crazy places and all this strange these crazy places and all this strange imagery. Um and that was kind of like I imagery. Um and that was kind of like I imagery. Um and that was kind of like I don't know too almost too active. Um, don't know too almost too active. Um, don't know too almost too active. Um, but when I was not meditating or or or I but when I was not meditating or or or I but when I was not meditating or or or I felt like I was meditating with my eyes felt like I was meditating with my eyes felt like I was meditating with my eyes open, um, I was as present as I've ever open, um, I was as present as I've ever open, um, I was as present as I've ever been. Uh, and it was, you know, it was a been. Uh, and it was, you know, it was a been. Uh, and it was, you know, it was a a wonderful experience. And I realized a wonderful experience. And I realized a wonderful experience. And I realized at a certain point Joan, who who kept at a certain point Joan, who who kept at a certain point Joan, who who kept evading my attempts to interview her in evading my attempts to interview her in evading my attempts to interview her in in classic Zen uh, fashion, you know, in classic Zen uh, fashion, you know, in classic Zen uh, fashion, you know, she knew I wanted she knew I was in I she knew I wanted she knew I was in I she knew I wanted she knew I was in I was in my head when I told her about was in my head when I told her about was in my head when I told her about this consciousness project. She was this consciousness project. She was this consciousness project. She was like, "You're hopeless and um we're like, "You're hopeless and um we're like, "You're hopeless and um we're going to we're going to get that out of going to we're going to get that out of going to we're going to get that out of you and you just need to be and you you and you just need to be and you you and you just need to be and you know, she it was kind of like an know, she it was kind of like an know, she it was kind of like an experiential co-an that she was posing experiential co-an that she was posing experiential co-an that she was posing for me. Stop thinking go live in the for me. Stop thinking go live in the for me. Stop thinking go live in the woods for you know 4 days and um and she woods for you know 4 days and um and she woods for you know 4 days and um and she was right in our interview. We finally was right in our interview. We finally was right in our interview. We finally had an interview and I described what had an interview and I described what had an interview and I described what was happening and she called what I was was happening and she called what I was was happening and she called what I was experiencing the sacredness of the experiencing the sacredness of the experiencing the sacredness of the everyday." um that when your everyday everyday." um that when your everyday everyday." um that when your everyday chores become ritual that is a practice chores become ritual that is a practice chores become ritual that is a practice too and I had never never been aware of too and I had never never been aware of too and I had never never been aware of that but she also said with regard to that but she also said with regard to that but she also said with regard to consciousness um you you need to get consciousness um you you need to get consciousness um you you need to get comfortable with the the don't know mind comfortable with the the don't know mind comfortable with the the don't know mind and that when you give up trying to and that when you give up trying to and that when you give up trying to understand something in that classic understand something in that classic understand something in that classic western male problem solution mode which western male problem solution mode which western male problem solution mode which which involves a narrowing of focus which involves a narrowing of focus which involves a narrowing of focus right what's called sometimes spotlight right what's called sometimes spotlight right what's called sometimes spotlight light consciousness. Um, light consciousness. Um, light consciousness. Um, you can open up to something with 360 you can open up to something with 360 you can open up to something with 360 degrees of awareness instead of one degrees of awareness instead of one degrees of awareness instead of one degree of awareness. And the don't know degree of awareness. And the don't know degree of awareness. And the don't know mind admits wonder, admits awe. And so mind admits wonder, admits awe. And so mind admits wonder, admits awe. And so that was her lesson to me and it was a that was her lesson to me and it was a that was her lesson to me and it was a great teaching and she did it great teaching and she did it great teaching and she did it essentially by putting me in this spot essentially by putting me in this spot essentially by putting me in this spot and letting me fend for myself. and letting me fend for myself. and letting me fend for myself. >> I love that story. Paleo Valley is a >> I love that story. 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That's paleo off your purchase. That's paleo valley.com/happier valley.com/happier valley.com/happier or just use the code happier at or just use the code happier at or just use the code happier at checkout. So, the two things I want to uh double So, the two things I want to uh double click on are um don't know mind and uh click on are um don't know mind and uh click on are um don't know mind and uh the the sacredness of of the everyday the the sacredness of of the everyday the the sacredness of of the everyday because these these really do seem like because these these really do seem like because these these really do seem like things that a listener could do without things that a listener could do without things that a listener could do without having to live in a cave or befriend having to live in a cave or befriend having to live in a cave or befriend Roshi Joan Halifax. So, let's just start Roshi Joan Halifax. So, let's just start Roshi Joan Halifax. So, let's just start with the sacredness of the everyday. Um, with the sacredness of the everyday. Um, with the sacredness of the everyday. Um, can you just say a little bit about how can you just say a little bit about how can you just say a little bit about how we might turn this turn our chores or we might turn this turn our chores or we might turn this turn our chores or the humdrum activities of our quotidian the humdrum activities of our quotidian the humdrum activities of our quotidian life into something elevated? life into something elevated? life into something elevated? >> Yeah. Um, something else Joseph >> Yeah. Um, something else Joseph >> Yeah. Um, something else Joseph Goldstein said at that meditation Goldstein said at that meditation Goldstein said at that meditation retreat I was at, uh, was what he he retreat I was at, uh, was what he he retreat I was at, uh, was what he he talked a lot about walking meditation, talked a lot about walking meditation, talked a lot about walking meditation, which I'd never really gotten. uh it which I'd never really gotten. uh it which I'd never really gotten. uh it seemed kind of dumb and the more I seemed kind of dumb and the more I seemed kind of dumb and the more I slowed down the more I lost my balance. slowed down the more I lost my balance. slowed down the more I lost my balance. He said during a walking meditation, He said during a walking meditation, He said during a walking meditation, think just this. So when you're sweeping think just this. So when you're sweeping think just this. So when you're sweeping the floor, let's say, think just this. the floor, let's say, think just this. the floor, let's say, think just this. When sweeping the floor, just sweep the When sweeping the floor, just sweep the When sweeping the floor, just sweep the floor. It's that these these activities floor. It's that these these activities floor. It's that these these activities we regard as wrote and intellectually we regard as wrote and intellectually we regard as wrote and intellectually unstimulating unstimulating unstimulating uh approached in the right direction can uh approached in the right direction can uh approached in the right direction can become profound and and even sacred. become profound and and even sacred. become profound and and even sacred. It's it's all in our head how we decide It's it's all in our head how we decide It's it's all in our head how we decide to think about it. So the first thing is to think about it. So the first thing is to think about it. So the first thing is just do it to the exclusion. Don't try just do it to the exclusion. Don't try just do it to the exclusion. Don't try to don't try to multitask. to don't try to multitask. to don't try to multitask. >> You know when sweeping just sweep when >> You know when sweeping just sweep when >> You know when sweeping just sweep when you know brewing tea just brew tea. And you know brewing tea just brew tea. And you know brewing tea just brew tea. And I mean that's a you know a zen uh a zen I mean that's a you know a zen uh a zen I mean that's a you know a zen uh a zen idea but it's it's actually quite idea but it's it's actually quite idea but it's it's actually quite powerful uh and it can be hard to do powerful uh and it can be hard to do powerful uh and it can be hard to do again because of our distractions. We again because of our distractions. We again because of our distractions. We live very distracted lives but to take live very distracted lives but to take live very distracted lives but to take those activities those activities those activities uh and elevate them to something uh and elevate them to something uh and elevate them to something important and they are important. This important and they are important. This important and they are important. This is how we keep our you know our homes is how we keep our you know our homes is how we keep our you know our homes clean and orderly and they they just we clean and orderly and they they just we clean and orderly and they they just we just are not encouraged to think about just are not encouraged to think about just are not encouraged to think about them. Why? because it's in no one's them. Why? because it's in no one's them. Why? because it's in no one's commercial interest. Basically, so many commercial interest. Basically, so many commercial interest. Basically, so many of our thoughts are thought by other of our thoughts are thought by other of our thoughts are thought by other people uh or thought by companies. I people uh or thought by companies. I people uh or thought by companies. I mean that are, you know, it's very hard mean that are, you know, it's very hard mean that are, you know, it's very hard to defend that space. Uh you know, to defend that space. Uh you know, to defend that space. Uh you know, that's totally uncommercial and uh so that's totally uncommercial and uh so that's totally uncommercial and uh so that's yeah, so that's what I would say that's yeah, so that's what I would say that's yeah, so that's what I would say about that. Um am I good at that? I about that. Um am I good at that? I about that. Um am I good at that? I needed the discipline of the cave to get needed the discipline of the cave to get needed the discipline of the cave to get there. But I try now when I'm doing there. But I try now when I'm doing there. But I try now when I'm doing that, when I'm doing the dishes to just that, when I'm doing the dishes to just that, when I'm doing the dishes to just fully absorb myself in it. And you know, fully absorb myself in it. And you know, fully absorb myself in it. And you know, I do a better job when I do. I do a better job when I do. I do a better job when I do. >> I'm feeling notwithstanding my earlier >> I'm feeling notwithstanding my earlier >> I'm feeling notwithstanding my earlier Jeremiahs against shame. Um, I feel a Jeremiahs against shame. Um, I feel a Jeremiahs against shame. Um, I feel a little bit ashamed listening to you talk little bit ashamed listening to you talk little bit ashamed listening to you talk about this just just because I've I've about this just just because I've I've about this just just because I've I've done so many [ __ ] meditation retreats done so many [ __ ] meditation retreats done so many [ __ ] meditation retreats and meditate every day and help people and meditate every day and help people and meditate every day and help people meditate and yet this stuff with the meditate and yet this stuff with the meditate and yet this stuff with the chores doing them undistracted, chores doing them undistracted, chores doing them undistracted, you know? I I mean, I do sometimes, but you know? I I mean, I do sometimes, but you know? I I mean, I do sometimes, but it's so frequent that I forget. you it's so frequent that I forget. you it's so frequent that I forget. you know, it's like, oh, you know, there's know, it's like, oh, you know, there's know, it's like, oh, you know, there's this podcast I'm in the middle of, so this podcast I'm in the middle of, so this podcast I'm in the middle of, so I'm going to listen to this while I I'm going to listen to this while I I'm going to listen to this while I brush my teeth or while I'm doing the brush my teeth or while I'm doing the brush my teeth or while I'm doing the dishes or whatever it is I'm doing dishes or whatever it is I'm doing dishes or whatever it is I'm doing instead of just doing the dishes or just instead of just doing the dishes or just instead of just doing the dishes or just brushing my teeth. And you want to be brushing my teeth. And you want to be brushing my teeth. And you want to be clear, it's not that I feel bad that I'm clear, it's not that I feel bad that I'm clear, it's not that I feel bad that I'm forgetting to eat my vegetables. When I forgetting to eat my vegetables. When I forgetting to eat my vegetables. When I just do the dishes, I'm way happier. um just do the dishes, I'm way happier. um just do the dishes, I'm way happier. um opening up Instagram or listening to a opening up Instagram or listening to a opening up Instagram or listening to a podcast less so with podcast but still podcast less so with podcast but still podcast less so with podcast but still true with podcast any interaction with true with podcast any interaction with true with podcast any interaction with the digital is a reliable source of the digital is a reliable source of the digital is a reliable source of suffering for me I'm just speaking for suffering for me I'm just speaking for suffering for me I'm just speaking for myself here but it's just just really myself here but it's just just really myself here but it's just just really effective way to dampen my mood and and effective way to dampen my mood and and effective way to dampen my mood and and if I can remember to just brush my teeth if I can remember to just brush my teeth if I can remember to just brush my teeth what what's what is the predominant what what's what is the predominant what what's what is the predominant sensation Joseph likes to ask when sensation Joseph likes to ask when sensation Joseph likes to ask when you're brushing your teeth check it out you're brushing your teeth check it out you're brushing your teeth check it out it's actually surprising it's it's not it's actually surprising it's it's not it's actually surprising it's it's not where you think it's going to be. Um, where you think it's going to be. Um, where you think it's going to be. Um, and I just drop into the sensations and and I just drop into the sensations and and I just drop into the sensations and then of course you get distracted, start then of course you get distracted, start then of course you get distracted, start again. I like life much better when I'm again. I like life much better when I'm again. I like life much better when I'm doing that and yet I'm embarrassed to doing that and yet I'm embarrassed to doing that and yet I'm embarrassed to admit how often I forget to do it. Yeah, admit how often I forget to do it. Yeah, admit how often I forget to do it. Yeah, it's really hard. it's really hard. it's really hard. >> You know, we have all these >> You know, we have all these >> You know, we have all these opportunities for multitasking. Uh, some opportunities for multitasking. Uh, some opportunities for multitasking. Uh, some of them new. I mean, being able to put of them new. I mean, being able to put of them new. I mean, being able to put in your AirPods and and uh listen to a in your AirPods and and uh listen to a in your AirPods and and uh listen to a podcast or music while you're doing the podcast or music while you're doing the podcast or music while you're doing the dishes or while you're walking. You dishes or while you're walking. You dishes or while you're walking. You know, I realize sometimes I've I've got know, I realize sometimes I've I've got know, I realize sometimes I've I've got I can't leave the house without putting I can't leave the house without putting I can't leave the house without putting in my AirPods and listening to something in my AirPods and listening to something in my AirPods and listening to something because I've got to catch up on this or because I've got to catch up on this or because I've got to catch up on this or that podcast or or I'm reading a book. that podcast or or I'm reading a book. that podcast or or I'm reading a book. And uh but when that happens, I'm not And uh but when that happens, I'm not And uh but when that happens, I'm not hearing the bird song. I'm not hearing hearing the bird song. I'm not hearing hearing the bird song. I'm not hearing the wind. And so the very simple the wind. And so the very simple the wind. And so the very simple practice of doing one thing at a time is practice of doing one thing at a time is practice of doing one thing at a time is is is a really big deal. And there's so is is a really big deal. And there's so is is a really big deal. And there's so much competition for our attention that much competition for our attention that much competition for our attention that doubling up on things is really what doubling up on things is really what doubling up on things is really what we're being sold now. And and and it's we're being sold now. And and and it's we're being sold now. And and and it's so convenient. You know, we're able to so convenient. You know, we're able to so convenient. You know, we're able to carry these powerful computers in our carry these powerful computers in our carry these powerful computers in our pockets. And what they're doing is like pockets. And what they're doing is like pockets. And what they're doing is like they want us 24/7. There was a quote they want us 24/7. There was a quote they want us 24/7. There was a quote from the head of Netflix the other day. from the head of Netflix the other day. from the head of Netflix the other day. He was talking about, you know, He was talking about, you know, He was talking about, you know, theatrical versus streaming and theatrical versus streaming and theatrical versus streaming and everything. and he said, "You know, we everything. and he said, "You know, we everything. and he said, "You know, we don't we're not competing for your movie don't we're not competing for your movie don't we're not competing for your movie time. We're competing for your sleep time. We're competing for your sleep time. We're competing for your sleep time." time." time." >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um so our attention is an incredibly >> Um so our attention is an incredibly >> Um so our attention is an incredibly valuable um resource and it's valuable um resource and it's valuable um resource and it's essentially being, you know, stolen from essentially being, you know, stolen from essentially being, you know, stolen from us. us. us. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And and sold to the highest bidder. >> And and sold to the highest bidder. >> And and sold to the highest bidder. >> And when we say attention, read our >> And when we say attention, read our >> And when we say attention, read our consciousness. And as I said at the consciousness. And as I said at the consciousness. And as I said at the beginning, it's it's only going to get beginning, it's it's only going to get beginning, it's it's only going to get worse. you know, we have these machines worse. you know, we have these machines worse. you know, we have these machines are now speaking to us in the first are now speaking to us in the first are now speaking to us in the first person. I think that is a fateful person. I think that is a fateful person. I think that is a fateful development for humanity. Um because we development for humanity. Um because we development for humanity. Um because we are so prone to anthropomorphize are so prone to anthropomorphize are so prone to anthropomorphize everything. We anthropomorphize our you everything. We anthropomorphize our you everything. We anthropomorphize our you know I mean stuffed animals when we're know I mean stuffed animals when we're know I mean stuffed animals when we're kids um and uh you know our our cars or kids um and uh you know our our cars or kids um and uh you know our our cars or you know whatever it is we tend to you know whatever it is we tend to you know whatever it is we tend to project human qualities. So when these project human qualities. So when these project human qualities. So when these machines tell us they're conscious and machines tell us they're conscious and machines tell us they're conscious and like us and and flatter us endlessly, like us and and flatter us endlessly, like us and and flatter us endlessly, um we're we're bonding with them. And so um we're we're bonding with them. And so um we're we're bonding with them. And so that's taking things to a whole other that's taking things to a whole other that's taking things to a whole other level that you know the attention level that you know the attention level that you know the attention economy is going to look quaint in a few economy is going to look quaint in a few economy is going to look quaint in a few years. years. years. >> You know, it just struck me as I was >> You know, it just struck me as I was >> You know, it just struck me as I was listening to you talk about the human listening to you talk about the human listening to you talk about the human propensity to anthropomorphize or aka propensity to anthropomorphize or aka propensity to anthropomorphize or aka humanize humanize humanize nonhuman actors like LLMs or or teddy nonhuman actors like LLMs or or teddy nonhuman actors like LLMs or or teddy bears. is technology. It's interesting. bears. is technology. It's interesting. bears. is technology. It's interesting. Technology gets us or wants us to Technology gets us or wants us to Technology gets us or wants us to humanize LLMs, but it also gets us to humanize LLMs, but it also gets us to humanize LLMs, but it also gets us to dehumanize fellow humans. dehumanize fellow humans. dehumanize fellow humans. >> Yes, that that is part of it. That is >> Yes, that that is part of it. That is >> Yes, that that is part of it. That is part of it. The other thing that's going part of it. The other thing that's going part of it. The other thing that's going on with technology, Sher Turkl is this on with technology, Sher Turkl is this on with technology, Sher Turkl is this sociologist at MIT who I interviewed and sociologist at MIT who I interviewed and sociologist at MIT who I interviewed and she said, you know, technology allows us she said, you know, technology allows us she said, you know, technology allows us to forget what we know about life. By to forget what we know about life. By to forget what we know about life. By which she means when we have a which she means when we have a which she means when we have a conversation with a machine, which we're conversation with a machine, which we're conversation with a machine, which we're increasingly doing, we have cheapened increasingly doing, we have cheapened increasingly doing, we have cheapened the concept of what a conversation is, the concept of what a conversation is, the concept of what a conversation is, we we we dumb it down to the level at we we we dumb it down to the level at we we we dumb it down to the level at which the machine can operate. So we which the machine can operate. So we which the machine can operate. So we forget that a conversation is a full forget that a conversation is a full forget that a conversation is a full body experience body experience body experience >> with eye contact, with body language. >> with eye contact, with body language. >> with eye contact, with body language. It's a really intricate thing that It's a really intricate thing that It's a really intricate thing that through Zoom, but also through through Zoom, but also through through Zoom, but also through interacting with a chatbot, we've interacting with a chatbot, we've interacting with a chatbot, we've reduced to just this stream of words reduced to just this stream of words reduced to just this stream of words coming back and forth. And that's a coming back and forth. And that's a coming back and forth. And that's a cheap idea of of a conversation, but we cheap idea of of a conversation, but we cheap idea of of a conversation, but we accept it. Um, and you know, in a way, accept it. Um, and you know, in a way, accept it. Um, and you know, in a way, the great symbol of this is the emoji the great symbol of this is the emoji the great symbol of this is the emoji that you know, when we accept the emoji that you know, when we accept the emoji that you know, when we accept the emoji as a substitute for emotion, think how as a substitute for emotion, think how as a substitute for emotion, think how much we've given up. But we gladly do it much we've given up. But we gladly do it much we've given up. But we gladly do it to these machines. It's really weird. to these machines. It's really weird. to these machines. It's really weird. >> Before I lose you, can you talk a little >> Before I lose you, can you talk a little >> Before I lose you, can you talk a little bit about don't know mind and how we can bit about don't know mind and how we can bit about don't know mind and how we can practice it in our lives? And it just practice it in our lives? And it just practice it in our lives? And it just seems obvious to me that this is seems obvious to me that this is seems obvious to me that this is actually not unrelated to our to tech actually not unrelated to our to tech actually not unrelated to our to tech pushing us to dehumanize people we pushing us to dehumanize people we pushing us to dehumanize people we disagree with. disagree with. disagree with. >> Yeah. And also to answer all questions >> Yeah. And also to answer all questions >> Yeah. And also to answer all questions whether they know the answer or not. Um whether they know the answer or not. Um whether they know the answer or not. Um >> you know, LLM's don't know from don't >> you know, LLM's don't know from don't >> you know, LLM's don't know from don't know mind. know mind. know mind. I've I've yet to have one say I don't I've I've yet to have one say I don't I've I've yet to have one say I don't know. Um know. Um know. Um and they're they're breeding this idea and they're they're breeding this idea and they're they're breeding this idea that um knowing is just a matter of that um knowing is just a matter of that um knowing is just a matter of asking and uh and an answer will come. asking and uh and an answer will come. asking and uh and an answer will come. And that's kind of not how important And that's kind of not how important And that's kind of not how important questions in the universe seem to to be. questions in the universe seem to to be. questions in the universe seem to to be. Um that there are many questions to Um that there are many questions to Um that there are many questions to which we we can't have answers. And how which we we can't have answers. And how which we we can't have answers. And how we deal with that space of not knowing we deal with that space of not knowing we deal with that space of not knowing is um we can act we can be frustrated or is um we can act we can be frustrated or is um we can act we can be frustrated or we can be open and that not knowing is we can be open and that not knowing is we can be open and that not knowing is is a space in which it can be of is a space in which it can be of is a space in which it can be of acceptance but it's also of this kind of acceptance but it's also of this kind of acceptance but it's also of this kind of you know as I said it's it's it's this you know as I said it's it's it's this you know as I said it's it's it's this trading in this spotlight consciousness trading in this spotlight consciousness trading in this spotlight consciousness for uh what's sometimes called lantern for uh what's sometimes called lantern for uh what's sometimes called lantern consciousness um which is taking in consciousness um which is taking in consciousness um which is taking in information the way children do which is information the way children do which is information the way children do which is not in a pointed way but from all not in a pointed way but from all not in a pointed way but from all different directions. That distinction I different directions. That distinction I different directions. That distinction I learned from Allison Gobnik who's a learned from Allison Gobnik who's a learned from Allison Gobnik who's a colleague at Berkeley and she points out colleague at Berkeley and she points out colleague at Berkeley and she points out that children have a different kind of that children have a different kind of that children have a different kind of consciousness than adults. It doesn't consciousness than adults. It doesn't consciousness than adults. It doesn't even rise to the level of don't know. Uh even rise to the level of don't know. Uh even rise to the level of don't know. Uh it's not articulated but it's a very uh it's not articulated but it's a very uh it's not articulated but it's a very uh taking in information from everywhere at taking in information from everywhere at taking in information from everywhere at once. They seem very distracted and once. They seem very distracted and once. They seem very distracted and distractable, but that's because they distractable, but that's because they distractable, but that's because they haven't learned to focus in a narrow way haven't learned to focus in a narrow way haven't learned to focus in a narrow way the way we do and the way they're taught the way we do and the way they're taught the way we do and the way they're taught in school. I think you have to acquire in school. I think you have to acquire in school. I think you have to acquire spotlight consciousness to thrive in our spotlight consciousness to thrive in our spotlight consciousness to thrive in our society. But before when kids are three, society. But before when kids are three, society. But before when kids are three, four or five, they're taking in four or five, they're taking in four or five, they're taking in information in a really different way, information in a really different way, information in a really different way, which is incredibly productive. I mean, which is incredibly productive. I mean, which is incredibly productive. I mean, they're learning about the world. Um, they're learning about the world. Um, they're learning about the world. Um, and that's how they learn about the and that's how they learn about the and that's how they learn about the world. It's not through books and world. It's not through books and world. It's not through books and looking at videos. But we can practice looking at videos. But we can practice looking at videos. But we can practice that kind of consciousness too. Um that kind of consciousness too. Um that kind of consciousness too. Um that's kind of you know she describes it that's kind of you know she describes it that's kind of you know she describes it as numinous um with lots of awe. I mean as numinous um with lots of awe. I mean as numinous um with lots of awe. I mean kids are bowled over all the time by kids are bowled over all the time by kids are bowled over all the time by things that we take for granted. And things that we take for granted. And things that we take for granted. And that's one of the great pleasures of that's one of the great pleasures of that's one of the great pleasures of being with young kids. And as she as she being with young kids. And as she as she being with young kids. And as she as she puts it, the the closest analogy to that puts it, the the closest analogy to that puts it, the the closest analogy to that kind of consciousness for adults is when kind of consciousness for adults is when kind of consciousness for adults is when we're on psychedelics. we're on psychedelics. we're on psychedelics. um where we lose that focus and we um where we lose that focus and we um where we lose that focus and we suddenly start taking in information suddenly start taking in information suddenly start taking in information from a million different directions. And from a million different directions. And from a million different directions. And uh she said, "You know, if you want to uh she said, "You know, if you want to uh she said, "You know, if you want to know what it's like to be a 4-year-old, know what it's like to be a 4-year-old, know what it's like to be a 4-year-old, um LSD can help." um LSD can help." um LSD can help." >> For those of us like me who are >> For those of us like me who are >> For those of us like me who are terrified of LSD, are there other ways terrified of LSD, are there other ways terrified of LSD, are there other ways to inhabit the spotlight, sorry, lantern to inhabit the spotlight, sorry, lantern to inhabit the spotlight, sorry, lantern consciousness? consciousness? consciousness? >> I I you know, I think you can cultivate >> I I you know, I think you can cultivate >> I I you know, I think you can cultivate it. Um I think sometimes it happens in it. Um I think sometimes it happens in it. Um I think sometimes it happens in meditation. you have this sense of, you meditation. you have this sense of, you meditation. you have this sense of, you know, 360 degrees of awareness and not know, 360 degrees of awareness and not know, 360 degrees of awareness and not you're not focused on the breath. I you're not focused on the breath. I you're not focused on the breath. I mean, it's that it's that open awareness mean, it's that it's that open awareness mean, it's that it's that open awareness kind of meditation that, you know, is is kind of meditation that, you know, is is kind of meditation that, you know, is is one one tool, but it's giving up the one one tool, but it's giving up the one one tool, but it's giving up the focus and and essentially allowing focus and and essentially allowing focus and and essentially allowing >> everything to come through and simply >> everything to come through and simply >> everything to come through and simply observe it. I don't know that the child observe it. I don't know that the child observe it. I don't know that the child is observing it, but it's more like just is observing it, but it's more like just is observing it, but it's more like just having, you know, just all these waves having, you know, just all these waves having, you know, just all these waves passing through. So I would say that's passing through. So I would say that's passing through. So I would say that's the yeah that's the closest way short of the yeah that's the closest way short of the yeah that's the closest way short of uh psychedelics uh psychedelics uh psychedelics >> probably nature too where it it is such >> probably nature too where it it is such >> probably nature too where it it is such a surround sound surround vision um a surround sound surround vision um a surround sound surround vision um experience. experience. experience. >> Yeah, it depends how you I mean I you >> Yeah, it depends how you I mean I you >> Yeah, it depends how you I mean I you know that that's one way of being in know that that's one way of being in know that that's one way of being in nature just simply walking open to what nature just simply walking open to what nature just simply walking open to what you're hearing and seeing. It's weird you're hearing and seeing. It's weird you're hearing and seeing. It's weird though. I like to hunt for mushrooms though. I like to hunt for mushrooms though. I like to hunt for mushrooms which is bringing spotlight which is bringing spotlight which is bringing spotlight consciousness into uh into that consciousness into uh into that consciousness into uh into that experience. So you can use nature in experience. So you can use nature in experience. So you can use nature in lots of different ways but I agree that lots of different ways but I agree that lots of different ways but I agree that it has enormous power to help us with it has enormous power to help us with it has enormous power to help us with all these issues we've been talking all these issues we've been talking all these issues we've been talking about um taking us out of ourselves. The about um taking us out of ourselves. The about um taking us out of ourselves. The experience of awe is uh precious and uh experience of awe is uh precious and uh experience of awe is uh precious and uh I have another colleague you know Der I have another colleague you know Der I have another colleague you know Der Kelner who's who's written about awe and Kelner who's who's written about awe and Kelner who's who's written about awe and he does this and the relationship of awe he does this and the relationship of awe he does this and the relationship of awe and the self which is really interesting and the self which is really interesting and the self which is really interesting and he does this very cool exercise and he does this very cool exercise and he does this very cool exercise where he asks participants in this study where he asks participants in this study where he asks participants in this study to draw a stick figure of themselves on to draw a stick figure of themselves on to draw a stick figure of themselves on graph paper and then he gives them an graph paper and then he gives them an graph paper and then he gives them an experience of awe uh which might be uh experience of awe uh which might be uh experience of awe uh which might be uh river rafting or it might just be a river rafting or it might just be a river rafting or it might just be a photograph of Euseite blown up and then photograph of Euseite blown up and then photograph of Euseite blown up and then he asked them to draw themselves again he asked them to draw themselves again he asked them to draw themselves again and they draw themselves at least half and they draw themselves at least half and they draw themselves at least half the size. the size. the size. >> Um their self shrinks >> Um their self shrinks >> Um their self shrinks >> before this experience of awe. And I >> before this experience of awe. And I >> before this experience of awe. And I think that's a that's a beautiful uh way think that's a that's a beautiful uh way think that's a that's a beautiful uh way to get at something we all feel when we to get at something we all feel when we to get at something we all feel when we feel awe. We feel smaller but in a way feel awe. We feel smaller but in a way feel awe. We feel smaller but in a way that feels great. that feels great. that feels great. >> Before I let you go, Michael, I'm going >> Before I let you go, Michael, I'm going >> Before I let you go, Michael, I'm going to abuse my position as host of the show to abuse my position as host of the show to abuse my position as host of the show to ask you a bald-faced um to ask you a bald-faced um to ask you a bald-faced um self-interested question. just want to self-interested question. just want to self-interested question. just want to run run something by you and this is on run run something by you and this is on run run something by you and this is on the question of psychedelics. I did the question of psychedelics. I did the question of psychedelics. I did reference I've said this to you in our reference I've said this to you in our reference I've said this to you in our prior conversations on the show that I prior conversations on the show that I prior conversations on the show that I am terrified of like the true am terrified of like the true am terrified of like the true psychedelic experiences LSD, Iawaska, psychedelic experiences LSD, Iawaska, psychedelic experiences LSD, Iawaska, psilocybin and yet I I've had this psilocybin and yet I I've had this psilocybin and yet I I've had this problem. Well, first of all, I'm just problem. Well, first of all, I'm just problem. Well, first of all, I'm just super curious about it and but I haven't super curious about it and but I haven't super curious about it and but I haven't been able to get over my fear to do it been able to get over my fear to do it been able to get over my fear to do it and especially since for the last four and especially since for the last four and especially since for the last four years of my life, I've I've been my my years of my life, I've I've been my my years of my life, I've I've been my my panic disorder has really come roaring panic disorder has really come roaring panic disorder has really come roaring back. I'm not feeling like I'm in the back. I'm not feeling like I'm in the back. I'm not feeling like I'm in the right place to do it, but I' i've been right place to do it, but I' i've been right place to do it, but I' i've been wanting to find a way to to work to I've wanting to find a way to to work to I've wanting to find a way to to work to I've done a ton of therapy or, you know, done a ton of therapy or, you know, done a ton of therapy or, you know, exposure therapy and other types of exposure therapy and other types of exposure therapy and other types of therapy for my panic disorder, which therapy for my panic disorder, which therapy for my panic disorder, which mostly shows up in elevators and mostly shows up in elevators and mostly shows up in elevators and airplanes. And um I saw a video recently airplanes. And um I saw a video recently airplanes. And um I saw a video recently on Tik Tok of the singer Lord, L O R D on Tik Tok of the singer Lord, L O R D on Tik Tok of the singer Lord, L O R D E, uh that's her performance name. And E, uh that's her performance name. And E, uh that's her performance name. And she was talking about how she used MDMA she was talking about how she used MDMA she was talking about how she used MDMA assisted therapy to get over her stage assisted therapy to get over her stage assisted therapy to get over her stage fright. So, I have signed up uh to do a fright. So, I have signed up uh to do a fright. So, I have signed up uh to do a dayong MDMA assisted therapy. I have no dayong MDMA assisted therapy. I have no dayong MDMA assisted therapy. I have no fear of MDMA because I've done it a lot fear of MDMA because I've done it a lot fear of MDMA because I've done it a lot recreationally and enjoy it immensely. recreationally and enjoy it immensely. recreationally and enjoy it immensely. So, I'm not worried about it, but I'm So, I'm not worried about it, but I'm So, I'm not worried about it, but I'm not convinced it's going to quote not convinced it's going to quote not convinced it's going to quote unquote work either. So, I'm just unquote work either. So, I'm just unquote work either. So, I'm just curious um to hear what you think about curious um to hear what you think about curious um to hear what you think about any of the foregoing. any of the foregoing. any of the foregoing. >> Well, I I do think MDMA is much less >> Well, I I do think MDMA is much less >> Well, I I do think MDMA is much less daunting than classical psychedelics. Uh daunting than classical psychedelics. Uh daunting than classical psychedelics. Uh and in fact there are many guides today and in fact there are many guides today and in fact there are many guides today who start a psychedelic session with who start a psychedelic session with who start a psychedelic session with MDMA and you do a couple hours on MDMA MDMA and you do a couple hours on MDMA MDMA and you do a couple hours on MDMA which one of the things MDMA does is is which one of the things MDMA does is is which one of the things MDMA does is is lowers activity in the amygdala which is lowers activity in the amygdala which is lowers activity in the amygdala which is the fear center of course and um you the fear center of course and um you the fear center of course and um you might find after an hour or so on MDMA might find after an hour or so on MDMA might find after an hour or so on MDMA yeah bring on the psilocybin um it's yeah bring on the psilocybin um it's yeah bring on the psilocybin um it's just less frightening um and and that's just less frightening um and and that's just less frightening um and and that's uh why I think it's it's it's used uh why I think it's it's it's used uh why I think it's it's it's used sometimes as a kind of appetizer. But on sometimes as a kind of appetizer. But on sometimes as a kind of appetizer. But on its own, MDMA is is very powerful and its own, MDMA is is very powerful and its own, MDMA is is very powerful and has proven um very useful in therapy. Um has proven um very useful in therapy. Um has proven um very useful in therapy. Um going back to the 80s and the 70s when going back to the 80s and the 70s when going back to the 80s and the 70s when it was legal, it was used by many uh it was legal, it was used by many uh it was legal, it was used by many uh therapists uh to help people with a therapists uh to help people with a therapists uh to help people with a range of different things. And its value range of different things. And its value range of different things. And its value was uh I mean it's two or three-fold. I was uh I mean it's two or three-fold. I was uh I mean it's two or three-fold. I one is it lowers your fear. The second one is it lowers your fear. The second one is it lowers your fear. The second is there's a there's a flood of oxytocin is there's a there's a flood of oxytocin is there's a there's a flood of oxytocin which is the the bonding hormone and it which is the the bonding hormone and it which is the the bonding hormone and it allows you to form a powerful allows you to form a powerful allows you to form a powerful relationship with the therapist where relationship with the therapist where relationship with the therapist where you're you know uh what might have taken you're you know uh what might have taken you're you know uh what might have taken years to develop trust happens like years to develop trust happens like years to develop trust happens like this. And um and that's very useful this. And um and that's very useful this. And um and that's very useful because it allows you to open up and because it allows you to open up and because it allows you to open up and talk about things that otherwise would talk about things that otherwise would talk about things that otherwise would be very hard to talk about. MDMMA is be very hard to talk about. MDMMA is be very hard to talk about. MDMMA is very useful in couples therapy for that very useful in couples therapy for that very useful in couples therapy for that reason. People can say things to one reason. People can say things to one reason. People can say things to one another without getting antagonistic or another without getting antagonistic or another without getting antagonistic or defensive. Panic disorders in defensive. Panic disorders in defensive. Panic disorders in particular, I don't know that much particular, I don't know that much particular, I don't know that much about. Um but to the extent that there about. Um but to the extent that there about. Um but to the extent that there may be some underlying issue that is may be some underlying issue that is may be some underlying issue that is leading to the panic disorders, um leading to the panic disorders, um leading to the panic disorders, um there's a good chance it could come out there's a good chance it could come out there's a good chance it could come out on MDMA because one of the things that on MDMA because one of the things that on MDMA because one of the things that happens is people bring up material uh happens is people bring up material uh happens is people bring up material uh from their childhood or or even from their childhood or or even from their childhood or or even generations ago. So it can have a lot of generations ago. So it can have a lot of generations ago. So it can have a lot of the value of psychedelic therapy without the value of psychedelic therapy without the value of psychedelic therapy without the um you know whatever you're finding the um you know whatever you're finding the um you know whatever you're finding frightening about it. I should say frightening about it. I should say frightening about it. I should say though that I was frightened too to do though that I was frightened too to do though that I was frightened too to do psychedelics. I was worried about what I psychedelics. I was worried about what I psychedelics. I was worried about what I would learn about myself. Uh that I would learn about myself. Uh that I would learn about myself. Uh that I would have a you know frightening trip would have a you know frightening trip would have a you know frightening trip and I was kind of forced into it because and I was kind of forced into it because and I was kind of forced into it because I was uh committed to write a book about I was uh committed to write a book about I was uh committed to write a book about it and and I and my readers expected me it and and I and my readers expected me it and and I and my readers expected me to do it. Um but I think when you do to do it. Um but I think when you do to do it. Um but I think when you do these things with a good qualified these things with a good qualified these things with a good qualified guide, the risks are mitigated guide, the risks are mitigated guide, the risks are mitigated substantially. substantially. substantially. Um and they can they can walk you Um and they can they can walk you Um and they can they can walk you through a difficult experience so that through a difficult experience so that through a difficult experience so that it is productive uh and that you can get it is productive uh and that you can get it is productive uh and that you can get through the scariest episode uh with the through the scariest episode uh with the through the scariest episode uh with the help of uh you know the kind of advice. help of uh you know the kind of advice. help of uh you know the kind of advice. But the the big advice that I think But the the big advice that I think But the the big advice that I think applies to MDMA as well as psychedelics applies to MDMA as well as psychedelics applies to MDMA as well as psychedelics when you're doing it in a therapeutic when you're doing it in a therapeutic when you're doing it in a therapeutic context is to simply surrender to what's context is to simply surrender to what's context is to simply surrender to what's happening. If you get anxious and try to happening. If you get anxious and try to happening. If you get anxious and try to fight it, you'll get really anxious and fight it, you'll get really anxious and fight it, you'll get really anxious and perhaps paranoid and and uh perhaps paranoid and and uh perhaps paranoid and and uh >> but you know, as the guides tell you, in >> but you know, as the guides tell you, in >> but you know, as the guides tell you, in and through um surrender. And if you and through um surrender. And if you and through um surrender. And if you keep that mantra in your head, keep that mantra in your head, keep that mantra in your head, surrender, um invariably you'll pass surrender, um invariably you'll pass surrender, um invariably you'll pass through whatever difficult patch to to a through whatever difficult patch to to a through whatever difficult patch to to a much happier place. So anyway, uh but much happier place. So anyway, uh but much happier place. So anyway, uh but having a guide makes all the difference. having a guide makes all the difference. having a guide makes all the difference. You know, someone's looking out for your You know, someone's looking out for your You know, someone's looking out for your body. You're going to be safe. going body. You're going to be safe. going body. You're going to be safe. going back to FedEx. The FedEx guy is not back to FedEx. The FedEx guy is not back to FedEx. The FedEx guy is not going to come to the door or they're going to come to the door or they're going to come to the door or they're going to answer the door for you. Um, so going to answer the door for you. Um, so going to answer the door for you. Um, so I think that that makes a a great I think that that makes a a great I think that that makes a a great difference. But, um, I'm happy to hear difference. But, um, I'm happy to hear difference. But, um, I'm happy to hear you're going to uh try this cuz it's you're going to uh try this cuz it's you're going to uh try this cuz it's it's using MDMA in a therapeutic versus it's using MDMA in a therapeutic versus it's using MDMA in a therapeutic versus recreational context. It's a really recreational context. It's a really recreational context. It's a really different drug. I mean, one of the different drug. I mean, one of the different drug. I mean, one of the things that's so curious about these things that's so curious about these things that's so curious about these substances is how um funible or substances is how um funible or substances is how um funible or malleable they are. That in different malleable they are. That in different malleable they are. That in different contexts, they act on you in very contexts, they act on you in very contexts, they act on you in very different ways. Using these drugs different ways. Using these drugs different ways. Using these drugs therapeutically, very often you'll have therapeutically, very often you'll have therapeutically, very often you'll have an eye shade on and maybe have an eye shade on and maybe have an eye shade on and maybe have headphones on listening to music. And headphones on listening to music. And headphones on listening to music. And this sends you inside this sends you inside this sends you inside rather than dealing with all the rather than dealing with all the rather than dealing with all the interesting sensory things that are interesting sensory things that are interesting sensory things that are happening. And that change that eye happening. And that change that eye happening. And that change that eye shade is like changing the identity of shade is like changing the identity of shade is like changing the identity of the substance completely. the substance completely. the substance completely. >> Um and is uh is very powerful. So I wish >> Um and is uh is very powerful. So I wish >> Um and is uh is very powerful. So I wish you uh happy trails. you uh happy trails. you uh happy trails. >> I love talking to you Michael. Thank you >> I love talking to you Michael. Thank you >> I love talking to you Michael. Thank you so so much for making time for this. Um so so much for making time for this. Um so so much for making time for this. Um before I really the the truly last before I really the the truly last before I really the the truly last question before I let you go, can you question before I let you go, can you question before I let you go, can you just remind everybody of the name of just remind everybody of the name of just remind everybody of the name of your new book and of your prior books? your new book and of your prior books? your new book and of your prior books? Uh um just please plug Uh um just please plug Uh um just please plug >> the new book which is my 10th. I'm I'm >> the new book which is my 10th. I'm I'm >> the new book which is my 10th. I'm I'm amazed to think uh is called a world amazed to think uh is called a world amazed to think uh is called a world appears a journey into consciousness and appears a journey into consciousness and appears a journey into consciousness and this follows on the heels of two books this follows on the heels of two books this follows on the heels of two books about psychoactives uh how to change about psychoactives uh how to change about psychoactives uh how to change your mind about psychedelics in therapy your mind about psychedelics in therapy your mind about psychedelics in therapy and uh this is your mind on plants which and uh this is your mind on plants which and uh this is your mind on plants which looks at three different substances looks at three different substances looks at three different substances including caffeine my you know all-time including caffeine my you know all-time including caffeine my you know all-time favorite drug um and before that I wrote favorite drug um and before that I wrote favorite drug um and before that I wrote a series of books about food including a series of books about food including a series of books about food including the omnivore's dilemma in defense of the omnivore's dilemma in defense of the omnivore's dilemma in defense of food and food rules tools and cooked. food and food rules tools and cooked. food and food rules tools and cooked. And before that, I wrote a book on And before that, I wrote a book on And before that, I wrote a book on gardening and and what I was learning in gardening and and what I was learning in gardening and and what I was learning in my garden called Second Nature. That was my garden called Second Nature. That was my garden called Second Nature. That was my first book. my first book. my first book. >> Amazing career, Michael. Thank you >> Amazing career, Michael. Thank you >> Amazing career, Michael. Thank you again. again. again. >> Oh, thank you, Dan. Always a pleasure to >> Oh, thank you, Dan. Always a pleasure to >> Oh, thank you, Dan. Always a pleasure to talk to