Marc Andreessen on how the internet changed news, politics, and outrage | The a16z Show

Each viral social media meme explosion Each viral social media meme explosion is like a 2 and 1/2 day panic cycle. is like a 2 and 1/2 day panic cycle. is like a 2 and 1/2 day panic cycle. [music] It was not that long ago grown [music] It was not that long ago grown [music] It was not that long ago grown men in serious positions of power and men in serious positions of power and men in serious positions of power and authority in the US got mad at each authority in the US got mad at each authority in the US got mad at each other and would literally have a other and would literally have a other and would literally have a physical duel and that was like a normal physical duel and that was like a normal physical duel and that was like a normal part of life. If you're sitting at home part of life. If you're sitting at home part of life. If you're sitting at home scrolling social media getting mad, at scrolling social media getting mad, at scrolling social media getting mad, at least you're not out in the street like least you're not out in the street like least you're not out in the street like hurting people. The fact that political hurting people. The fact that political hurting people. The fact that political violence is at like an all-time low in violence is at like an all-time low in violence is at like an all-time low in Western society is something that people Western society is something that people Western society is something that people [music] really don't talk about. The [music] really don't talk about. The [music] really don't talk about. The news is called the news, not the news is called the news, not the news is called the news, not the importance. If you can imagine a version importance. If you can imagine a version importance. If you can imagine a version of the news that's called the importance of the news that's called the importance of the news that's called the importance [music] and and the newspaper is like [music] and and the newspaper is like [music] and and the newspaper is like here are all the important things that here are all the important things that here are all the important things that are happening today. Nobody would buy it are happening today. Nobody would buy it are happening today. Nobody would buy it cuz nobody cares. Cuz people want the cuz nobody cares. Cuz people want the cuz nobody cares. Cuz people want the news. They want the hot thing. They want news. They want the hot thing. They want news. They want the hot thing. They want the outrageous thing. Mark, thank you for joining Monitoring Mark, thank you for joining Monitoring the Situation. the Situation. the Situation. Good morning. I could not be more Good morning. I could not be more Good morning. I could not be more excited. Let's monitor some situation. excited. Let's monitor some situation. excited. Let's monitor some situation. Excellent. Well, first we'll we'll get a Excellent. Well, first we'll we'll get a Excellent. Well, first we'll we'll get a bit meta here and uh we'll talk about bit meta here and uh we'll talk about bit meta here and uh we'll talk about media. We've been uh talking about this media. We've been uh talking about this media. We've been uh talking about this idea at Monitoring the Situation. We've idea at Monitoring the Situation. We've idea at Monitoring the Situation. We've talked about investing in it for almost talked about investing in it for almost talked about investing in it for almost a year now. Um and when we were first a year now. Um and when we were first a year now. Um and when we were first talking about the idea, uh you had talking about the idea, uh you had talking about the idea, uh you had brought up the the book about the brought up the the book about the brought up the the book about the history of CNN. And you actually uh you history of CNN. And you actually uh you history of CNN. And you actually uh you talked about this concept that they had talked about this concept that they had talked about this concept that they had called Randomonium. Uh called Randomonium. Uh called Randomonium. Uh what did you find so interesting about what did you find so interesting about what did you find so interesting about the the founding or the history of of the the founding or the history of of the the founding or the history of of CNN and how how it could apply to what CNN and how how it could apply to what CNN and how how it could apply to what we're doing here or or this broader we're doing here or or this broader we're doing here or or this broader media moment? media moment? media moment? Yeah, so uh so one is I'm old enough to Yeah, so uh so one is I'm old enough to Yeah, so uh so one is I'm old enough to remember when CNN started. Um although I remember when CNN started. Um although I remember when CNN started. Um although I didn't actually have cable TV at the didn't actually have cable TV at the didn't actually have cable TV at the time so I didn't see it, but uh I time so I didn't see it, but uh I time so I didn't see it, but uh I remember it and the impact that it had remember it and the impact that it had remember it and the impact that it had and then I because I'm an obsessive, I and then I because I'm an obsessive, I and then I because I'm an obsessive, I there's this book at one point that there's this book at one point that there's this book at one point that nobody's read, but it's the book is nobody's read, but it's the book is nobody's read, but it's the book is called Me and Ted Against the World. called Me and Ted Against the World. called Me and Ted Against the World. Uh which is a great title. So it's it's Uh which is a great title. So it's it's Uh which is a great title. So it's it's uh the founder of CNN, this guy Reese uh the founder of CNN, this guy Reese uh the founder of CNN, this guy Reese Reese Schonfeld. Reese Schonfeld. Reese Schonfeld. Um and uh he he basically he's actually Um and uh he he basically he's actually Um and uh he he basically he's actually the guy who who convinced Ted Turner to the guy who who convinced Ted Turner to the guy who who convinced Ted Turner to go into the go into the satellite go into the go into the satellite go into the go into the satellite business which sort of created, you business which sort of created, you business which sort of created, you know, my essentially modern, you know, know, my essentially modern, you know, know, my essentially modern, you know, cable TV uh satellite TV and then all cable TV uh satellite TV and then all cable TV uh satellite TV and then all you know, led downstream to streaming you know, led downstream to streaming you know, led downstream to streaming and everything else going on today. And and everything else going on today. And and everything else going on today. And so so so and you know, this has been kind of lost and you know, this has been kind of lost and you know, this has been kind of lost to history, but Ted Turner was like a a to history, but Ted Turner was like a a to history, but Ted Turner was like a a great like amazing example of like great like amazing example of like great like amazing example of like exactly the kind of, you know, great exactly the kind of, you know, great exactly the kind of, you know, great founder that we work with. Like just founder that we work with. Like just founder that we work with. Like just this like incredible world of power, you this like incredible world of power, you this like incredible world of power, you know, very controversial character. Like know, very controversial character. Like know, very controversial character. Like every other thing out of his mouth like every other thing out of his mouth like every other thing out of his mouth like horrified, like you you know, he horrified, like you you know, he horrified, like you you know, he generated a huge number of headlines of generated a huge number of headlines of generated a huge number of headlines of like you know, I can't believe Ted said like you know, I can't believe Ted said like you know, I can't believe Ted said that. that. that. Um like over and over and over again. So Um like over and over and over again. So Um like over and over and over again. So like one one of these one of the one of like one one of these one of the one of like one one of these one of the one of these real characters in the in the these real characters in the in the these real characters in the in the history of the media business. Uh and history of the media business. Uh and history of the media business. Uh and then this guy Reese Schonfeld who was then this guy Reese Schonfeld who was then this guy Reese Schonfeld who was originally the lawyer that that wired up originally the lawyer that that wired up originally the lawyer that that wired up Ted's first first first first satellite Ted's first first first first satellite Ted's first first first first satellite deal and and so the the two of them came deal and and so the the two of them came deal and and so the the two of them came up with this crazy idea like I forget up with this crazy idea like I forget up with this crazy idea like I forget like 1981 or something. And they said, like 1981 or something. And they said, like 1981 or something. And they said, "How about having a 24-hour news "How about having a 24-hour news "How about having a 24-hour news channel?" Right? And and and this at the channel?" Right? And and and this at the channel?" Right? And and and this at the time was like just like a completely time was like just like a completely time was like just like a completely loopy idea. Uh actually uh Ted Ted loopy idea. Uh actually uh Ted Ted loopy idea. Uh actually uh Ted Ted Turner wanted to be a 15-hour a day news Turner wanted to be a 15-hour a day news Turner wanted to be a 15-hour a day news channel cuz he assumed that there would channel cuz he assumed that there would channel cuz he assumed that there would be nobody watching overnight, you know, be nobody watching overnight, you know, be nobody watching overnight, you know, that the 9 hours overnight. And Reese that the 9 hours overnight. And Reese that the 9 hours overnight. And Reese was like, "Nope, 24 hours. People are was like, "Nope, 24 hours. People are was like, "Nope, 24 hours. People are going to stay up all night to watch this going to stay up all night to watch this going to stay up all night to watch this thing." thing." thing." Um and the idea was uh by the way Um and the idea was uh by the way Um and the idea was uh by the way completely alien to what completely alien to what completely alien to what CNN is today. CNN is today. CNN is today. Uh the the idea was was was this concept Uh the the idea was was was this concept Uh the the idea was was was this concept that Reese Schonfeld came up with called that Reese Schonfeld came up with called that Reese Schonfeld came up with called Randomonium which basically says at any Randomonium which basically says at any Randomonium which basically says at any point in time there is like whatever point in time there is like whatever point in time there is like whatever there there is something happening in there there is something happening in there there is something happening in the world that is like the most amazing, the world that is like the most amazing, the world that is like the most amazing, interesting, controversial, bonkers, interesting, controversial, bonkers, interesting, controversial, bonkers, compelling, transfixing thing that you compelling, transfixing thing that you compelling, transfixing thing that you can imagine. can imagine. can imagine. Um and you know Um and you know Um and you know >> The current thing. >> The current thing. >> The current thing. >> The current thing. The current thing. >> The current thing. The current thing. >> The current thing. The current thing. Exactly. The current thing. At any Exactly. The current thing. At any Exactly. The current thing. At any moment in time there's the current moment in time there's the current moment in time there's the current thing. And so he's like, "What should a thing. And so he's like, "What should a thing. And so he's like, "What should a 24-hour news channel be? Obviously, it 24-hour news channel be? Obviously, it 24-hour news channel be? Obviously, it should be the thing it's right should be the thing it's right should be the thing it's right Obviously, what it should do is it Obviously, what it should do is it Obviously, what it should do is it should lock onto the current thing. It should lock onto the current thing. It should lock onto the current thing. It should then cover the current thing should then cover the current thing should then cover the current thing continuously, right? For as many continuously, right? For as many continuously, right? For as many minutes, hours, or days as that thing is minutes, hours, or days as that thing is minutes, hours, or days as that thing is the current thing." the current thing." the current thing." Uh and then he called it Randomonium cuz Uh and then he called it Randomonium cuz Uh and then he called it Randomonium cuz he basically said for that period you he basically said for that period you he basically said for that period you just put whatever you get you put on just put whatever you get you put on just put whatever you get you put on screen. screen. screen. Um and so you get whatever fragmentary Um and so you get whatever fragmentary Um and so you get whatever fragmentary reports or man-on-the-street interviews reports or man-on-the-street interviews reports or man-on-the-street interviews or like you know, what what whatever it or like you know, what what whatever it or like you know, what what whatever it is, you just like slap the thing on the is, you just like slap the thing on the is, you just like slap the thing on the screen and like if you know, if you get screen and like if you know, if you get screen and like if you know, if you get it wrong, you apologize later, but like it wrong, you apologize later, but like it wrong, you apologize later, but like you know, we're you know, this is you're you know, we're you know, this is you're you know, we're you know, this is you're real time, it's live. Um and then you real time, it's live. Um and then you real time, it's live. Um and then you just people are just going to be glued just people are just going to be glued just people are just going to be glued to this thing. And actually that So to this thing. And actually that So to this thing. And actually that So okay, so that was the original CNN okay, so that was the original CNN okay, so that was the original CNN business plan. business plan. business plan. They they then they then you know, they They they then they then you know, they They they then they then you know, they took a while to get up and running, but took a while to get up and running, but took a while to get up and running, but then they they actually did implement then they they actually did implement then they they actually did implement this and the the for for our older this and the the for for our older this and the the for for our older viewers will will remember as I do that viewers will will remember as I do that viewers will will remember as I do that it was the real breakthrough point was it was the real breakthrough point was it was the real breakthrough point was the 1991 Gulf War. the 1991 Gulf War. the 1991 Gulf War. The first invasion of Iraq and the and The first invasion of Iraq and the and The first invasion of Iraq and the and that was the thing that really caused that was the thing that really caused that was the thing that really caused the whole thing to punch through and the whole thing to punch through and the whole thing to punch through and there was like a week there. Where there was like a week there. Where there was like a week there. Where basically just like you were just people basically just like you were just people basically just like you were just people were just glued to CNN around the clock were just glued to CNN around the clock were just glued to CNN around the clock cuz they had you know it was like cuz they had you know it was like cuz they had you know it was like literally live on the ground coverage of literally live on the ground coverage of literally live on the ground coverage of like you know they were in Baghdad you like you know they were in Baghdad you like you know they were in Baghdad you know with like bombing raids happening know with like bombing raids happening know with like bombing raids happening all kinds of crazy stuff and the Iraqi all kinds of crazy stuff and the Iraqi all kinds of crazy stuff and the Iraqi government like just the whole thing. It government like just the whole thing. It government like just the whole thing. It was so it was just like the most was so it was just like the most was so it was just like the most incredible show in the world and then incredible show in the world and then incredible show in the world and then quite honestly they spent the next you quite honestly they spent the next you quite honestly they spent the next you know whatever 20 years you know know whatever 20 years you know know whatever 20 years you know basically trying to trying to you know basically trying to trying to you know basically trying to trying to you know repeat that experience and they they repeat that experience and they they repeat that experience and they they repeated it every now and then with like repeated it every now and then with like repeated it every now and then with like the Monica Lewinsky thing was that for a the Monica Lewinsky thing was that for a the Monica Lewinsky thing was that for a while and the OJ OJ trial was that for a while and the OJ OJ trial was that for a while and the OJ OJ trial was that for a little bit but. It was just kind of hard little bit but. It was just kind of hard little bit but. It was just kind of hard to come up with with with the next thing to come up with with with the next thing to come up with with with the next thing like that and then and then you know like that and then and then you know like that and then and then you know over the last 20 years you know CNN has over the last 20 years you know CNN has over the last 20 years you know CNN has kind of become something you know kind of become something you know kind of become something you know completely different today let's say. completely different today let's say. completely different today let's say. That's not that at all and then That's not that at all and then That's not that at all and then basically what's happened is the basically what's happened is the basically what's happened is the internet reinvented randomonium. And so internet reinvented randomonium. And so internet reinvented randomonium. And so right the experience of monitoring the right the experience of monitoring the right the experience of monitoring the situation on especially you know on on situation on especially you know on on situation on especially you know on on social media and especially of course on social media and especially of course on social media and especially of course on X. X. X. Right specifically right Right specifically right Right specifically right and then by the way also streaming right and then by the way also streaming right and then by the way also streaming right the you know the other the other part of the you know the other the other part of the you know the other the other part of it is streaming and now there's it is streaming and now there's it is streaming and now there's obviously streaming on X but also you obviously streaming on X but also you obviously streaming on X but also you know streaming on other platforms you know streaming on other platforms you know streaming on other platforms you know YouTube and Twitch and so forth and know YouTube and Twitch and so forth and know YouTube and Twitch and so forth and so the internet reinvented this and so the internet reinvented this and so the internet reinvented this and right so right so right so randomonium turned into you know the randomonium turned into you know the randomonium turned into you know the current thing and then monitoring the current thing and then monitoring the current thing and then monitoring the situation you know legitimately situation you know legitimately situation you know legitimately justifiably became a a giant meme and so justifiably became a a giant meme and so justifiably became a a giant meme and so it is time yes it is clearly time to it is time yes it is clearly time to it is time yes it is clearly time to monitor the situation. monitor the situation. monitor the situation. Why do we think the amount of current Why do we think the amount of current Why do we think the amount of current things or randomonium or situations just things or randomonium or situations just things or randomonium or situations just is continuously accelerating is continuously accelerating is continuously accelerating it it seems like it's you know just the it it seems like it's you know just the it it seems like it's you know just the the amount the amount the amount your velocity of these moments just your velocity of these moments just your velocity of these moments just keeps on increasing how do we make sense keeps on increasing how do we make sense keeps on increasing how do we make sense of that? of that? of that? Yeah so I think there's really two two Yeah so I think there's really two two Yeah so I think there's really two two things that have happened that are things that have happened that are things that have happened that are really different and even you know really different and even you know really different and even you know different than the days of cable TV and different than the days of cable TV and different than the days of cable TV and 24 hour news 24 hour news 24 hour news so one is just like the internet for so one is just like the internet for so one is just like the internet for better or for worse like the internet better or for worse like the internet better or for worse like the internet plugs you into the world, right? Like plugs you into the world, right? Like plugs you into the world, right? Like the internet plugs you in. the internet plugs you in. the internet plugs you in. >> McLuhan. >> McLuhan. >> McLuhan. >> yes. >> yes. >> yes. Uh Marshall McLuhan, okay, so let's cite Uh Marshall McLuhan, okay, so let's cite Uh Marshall McLuhan, okay, so let's cite Marshall McLuhan actually for both of Marshall McLuhan actually for both of Marshall McLuhan actually for both of these. So Marshall McLuhan, who was the these. So Marshall McLuhan, who was the these. So Marshall McLuhan, who was the great media media theorist of the 20th great media media theorist of the 20th great media media theorist of the 20th century, yeah, he had two key concepts century, yeah, he had two key concepts century, yeah, he had two key concepts so that are relevant here. So one is the so that are relevant here. So one is the so that are relevant here. So one is the global village. And so he had this global village. And so he had this global village. And so he had this concept of the global village and the concept of the global village and the concept of the global village and the concept of the global village, by the concept of the global village, by the concept of the global village, by the way, he did not view as a positive. way, he did not view as a positive. way, he did not view as a positive. Like he was not endorsing he was just in Like he was not endorsing he was just in Like he was not endorsing he was just in his mind he was making an observation of his mind he was making an observation of his mind he was making an observation of what was happening, which is basically what was happening, which is basically what was happening, which is basically basically what he meant by that is you basically what he meant by that is you basically what he meant by that is you you need to conceive of what he meant by you need to conceive of what he meant by you need to conceive of what he meant by village to start with. So so village village to start with. So so village village to start with. So so village basically means a community with a small basically means a community with a small basically means a community with a small enough number of people where everybody enough number of people where everybody enough number of people where everybody knows everybody else. So like think knows everybody else. So like think knows everybody else. So like think about a small town or you know, a a about a small town or you know, a a about a small town or you know, a a literal small village and everybody literal small village and everybody literal small village and everybody knows everybody else and as a knows everybody else and as a knows everybody else and as a consequence of that there's no privacy. consequence of that there's no privacy. consequence of that there's no privacy. Right. And and and basically everybody's Right. And and and basically everybody's Right. And and and basically everybody's up in each other's business all the up in each other's business all the up in each other's business all the time. Um and I and and I grew up in a time. Um and I and and I grew up in a time. Um and I and and I grew up in a small enough town, uh you know, in a small enough town, uh you know, in a small enough town, uh you know, in a rural town where I you know, I I rural town where I you know, I I rural town where I you know, I I experienced this. I I saw what it was experienced this. I I saw what it was experienced this. I I saw what it was like and it was like that. Everybody like and it was like that. Everybody like and it was like that. Everybody knows everybody else. By the way, it's knows everybody else. By the way, it's knows everybody else. By the way, it's the same people year after year after the same people year after year after the same people year after year after year. You like get to know them like way year. You like get to know them like way year. You like get to know them like way too well. Everybody's completely up in too well. Everybody's completely up in too well. Everybody's completely up in each up in each other's business. Like each up in each other's business. Like each up in each other's business. Like there's basically no privacy. Um and so there's basically no privacy. Um and so there's basically no privacy. Um and so you know, and by the way, one of the you know, and by the way, one of the you know, and by the way, one of the reasons people leave small towns to go reasons people leave small towns to go reasons people leave small towns to go to the big city is cuz they want to get to the big city is cuz they want to get to the big city is cuz they want to get you know, they want to get away from you know, they want to get away from you know, they want to get away from that. They want to they want to get to a that. They want to they want to get to a that. They want to they want to get to a level of anonymity and and and have a level of anonymity and and and have a level of anonymity and and and have a lot more, you know, people running lot more, you know, people running lot more, you know, people running around. But but the village kind of has around. But but the village kind of has around. But but the village kind of has that specific thing. And what he said that specific thing. And what he said that specific thing. And what he said was basically modern media is going to was basically modern media is going to was basically modern media is going to turn the entire world into a village. Um turn the entire world into a village. Um turn the entire world into a village. Um and so you're just going to be connected and so you're just going to be connected and so you're just going to be connected and this is, you know, pre-internet when and this is, you know, pre-internet when and this is, you know, pre-internet when he said this, right? he said this, right? he said this, right? Um but you know, it's really happened Um but you know, it's really happened Um but you know, it's really happened with the internet where it's just like, with the internet where it's just like, with the internet where it's just like, okay, you're connected to everybody all okay, you're connected to everybody all okay, you're connected to everybody all the time. Um and and and and by the way, the time. Um and and and and by the way, the time. Um and and and and by the way, like by default, um you know, he would like by default, um you know, he would like by default, um you know, he would find this to be like a a very find this to be like a a very find this to be like a a very entertaining thing that this is actually entertaining thing that this is actually entertaining thing that this is actually happening cuz he he would say, of course happening cuz he he would say, of course happening cuz he he would say, of course you're getting all the downstream you're getting all the downstream you're getting all the downstream effects that you're getting, which is effects that you're getting, which is effects that you're getting, which is by default it's it's it's going to melt by default it's it's it's going to melt by default it's it's it's going to melt your brain, right? Like the your brain, right? Like the your brain, right? Like the the human animal was not evolved the the human animal was not evolved the the human animal was not evolved the human animal was evolved to have like, human animal was evolved to have like, human animal was evolved to have like, you know, there's a Dunbar's number. You you know, there's a Dunbar's number. You you know, there's a Dunbar's number. You can basically have a direct relationship can basically have a direct relationship can basically have a direct relationship with like 150 people. It's sort of with like 150 people. It's sort of with like 150 people. It's sort of famously called the Dunbar number in famously called the Dunbar number in famously called the Dunbar number in sociology. Um but the global village sociology. Um but the global village sociology. Um but the global village expects you to have a Dunbar number of expects you to have a Dunbar number of expects you to have a Dunbar number of like eight billion people, right? Like like eight billion people, right? Like like eight billion people, right? Like Like cuz cuz they're all right there and Like cuz cuz they're all right there and Like cuz cuz they're all right there and they're all up in your grill, right? And they're all up in your grill, right? And they're all up in your grill, right? And they're all telling you what they think they're all telling you what they think they're all telling you what they think of you and they're all like cursing at of you and they're all like cursing at of you and they're all like cursing at you and calling you names. Like and so you and calling you names. Like and so you and calling you names. Like and so it's just like this like really really it's just like this like really really it's just like this like really really brain melting experience. Um so so that brain melting experience. Um so so that brain melting experience. Um so so that that's part one. Um so we just we that's part one. Um so we just we that's part one. Um so we just we experience reality differently uh as a experience reality differently uh as a experience reality differently uh as a result of that. And so the the the result of that. And so the the the result of that. And so the the the thought experiment I I always have is, thought experiment I I always have is, thought experiment I I always have is, you know, we we talk a lot about the you know, we we talk a lot about the you know, we we talk a lot about the impact of the internet social media on impact of the internet social media on impact of the internet social media on politics. It's like uh well, okay, like politics. It's like uh well, okay, like politics. It's like uh well, okay, like imagine having social media during World imagine having social media during World imagine having social media during World War II. War II. War II. Right? Like we would have had a Right? Like we would have had a Right? Like we would have had a completely different national uh completely different national uh completely different national uh experience. Um you know, had like Pearl experience. Um you know, had like Pearl experience. Um you know, had like Pearl Harbor happened with like Twitter? Harbor happened with like Twitter? Harbor happened with like Twitter? Like it like Like it like Like it like it would have been a completely it would have been a completely it would have been a completely different experience than the way people different experience than the way people different experience than the way people lived through, you know, Pearl Harbor in lived through, you know, Pearl Harbor in lived through, you know, Pearl Harbor in in in in in actually 1941 with, you in in in in actually 1941 with, you in in in in actually 1941 with, you know, with primarily with TV and radio. know, with primarily with TV and radio. know, with primarily with TV and radio. And so anyway, so there there's a global And so anyway, so there there's a global And so anyway, so there there's a global village thing. And then there's this village thing. And then there's this village thing. And then there's this other thing that he said, which he other thing that he said, which he other thing that he said, which he originally said about television. originally said about television. originally said about television. He made this key observation. He said He made this key observation. He said He made this key observation. He said this is part of his thing where he said this is part of his thing where he said this is part of his thing where he said the medium is the message. So the the the medium is the message. So the the the medium is the message. So the the actual medium of the of the media actual medium of the of the media actual medium of the of the media technology actually determines a lot of technology actually determines a lot of technology actually determines a lot of the message of what's received. Uh a lot the message of what's received. Uh a lot the message of what's received. Uh a lot of the content. And and and specifically of the content. And and and specifically of the content. And and and specifically he said this thing. He said, "If it's on he said this thing. He said, "If it's on he said this thing. He said, "If it's on television, it's a television show." television, it's a television show." television, it's a television show." Um and what he meant by that is if Um and what he meant by that is if Um and what he meant by that is if something's going to be on television, something's going to be on television, something's going to be on television, it's going to end up being turned into it's going to end up being turned into it's going to end up being turned into the equivalent of like a half-hour the equivalent of like a half-hour the equivalent of like a half-hour comedy or an hour-long drama. Right? comedy or an hour-long drama. Right? comedy or an hour-long drama. Right? Basically, you know, the two native Basically, you know, the two native Basically, you know, the two native media forms of of television are the media forms of of television are the media forms of of television are the half-hour comedy or the hour-long drama. half-hour comedy or the hour-long drama. half-hour comedy or the hour-long drama. Um and so you're you're going to get Um and so you're you're going to get Um and so you're you're going to get this basically very emotion You're going this basically very emotion You're going this basically very emotion You're going to get this very polished and sort of to get this very polished and sort of to get this very polished and sort of glossy and produced thing that's going glossy and produced thing that's going glossy and produced thing that's going to it's going to be a story and it's to it's going to be a story and it's to it's going to be a story and it's going to run the way that a television going to run the way that a television going to run the way that a television story runs or a television show runs. story runs or a television show runs. story runs or a television show runs. Um and it's going to and and like and Um and it's going to and and like and Um and it's going to and and like and every television show is like a it's a every television show is like a it's a every television show is like a it's a every television show is like a morality every television show is like a morality every television show is like a morality play, right? Every television show play, right? Every television show play, right? Every television show basically tells a moral story of basically tells a moral story of basically tells a moral story of basically people behaving badly and then basically people behaving badly and then basically people behaving badly and then and then learning the error of their and then learning the error of their and then learning the error of their ways and then, you know, then famously ways and then, you know, then famously ways and then, you know, then famously you have like, you know, the happy you have like, you know, the happy you have like, you know, the happy ending, right? Uh where everybody you ending, right? Uh where everybody you ending, right? Uh where everybody you know, kisses and hugs. know, kisses and hugs. know, kisses and hugs. Um and remember Seinfeld was like a huge Um and remember Seinfeld was like a huge Um and remember Seinfeld was like a huge variation of that because remember the variation of that because remember the variation of that because remember the the motto of Seinfeld, Larry David's the motto of Seinfeld, Larry David's the motto of Seinfeld, Larry David's motto for Seinfeld was no learning, no motto for Seinfeld was no learning, no motto for Seinfeld was no learning, no hugging. hugging. hugging. Um and it was it was what made Seinfeld Um and it was it was what made Seinfeld Um and it was it was what made Seinfeld so unique cuz every other television so unique cuz every other television so unique cuz every other television show up until Seinfeld always ended with show up until Seinfeld always ended with show up until Seinfeld always ended with everybody learning and hugging, right? everybody learning and hugging, right? everybody learning and hugging, right? You learn the moral lesson and then you You learn the moral lesson and then you You learn the moral lesson and then you you you sort of reconcile with with the you you sort of reconcile with with the you you sort of reconcile with with the people close to you. And so every every people close to you. And so every every people close to you. And so every every real life experience would get wedged real life experience would get wedged real life experience would get wedged into the format of a television show and into the format of a television show and into the format of a television show and would be turned into like this basically would be turned into like this basically would be turned into like this basically this basically this basically this basically this morality play. this morality play. this morality play. Okay, so the internet version I I Okay, so the internet version I I Okay, so the internet version I I believe the internet version of if it's believe the internet version of if it's believe the internet version of if it's on television, it's a television show. on television, it's a television show. on television, it's a television show. The internet version is if it's on the The internet version is if it's on the The internet version is if it's on the internet, it's a viral social media internet, it's a viral social media internet, it's a viral social media meme. meme. meme. Uh right. If if if it's on the internet, Uh right. If if if it's on the internet, Uh right. If if if it's on the internet, it doesn't matter what it is. By the it doesn't matter what it is. By the it doesn't matter what it is. By the way, if an alien invasion happens later way, if an alien invasion happens later way, if an alien invasion happens later this afternoon, this afternoon, this afternoon, it will be turned into a social media it will be turned into a social media it will be turned into a social media meme. Like like like and it will go meme. Like like like and it will go meme. Like like like and it will go viral. And that and that's what will viral. And that and that's what will viral. And that and that's what will happen. Right? And it will be turned happen. Right? And it will be turned happen. Right? And it will be turned into a viral meme and it will spread into a viral meme and it will spread into a viral meme and it will spread virally across the thing and then and virally across the thing and then and virally across the thing and then and then, you know, human beings what they then, you know, human beings what they then, you know, human beings what they are, that will turn into a moral panic. are, that will turn into a moral panic. are, that will turn into a moral panic. You know, that that'll turn into a You know, that that'll turn into a You know, that that'll turn into a full-fledged like outright, you know, full-fledged like outright, you know, full-fledged like outright, you know, outrage and how dare you and people will outrage and how dare you and people will outrage and how dare you and people will line up on each side and you sort of line up on each side and you sort of line up on each side and you sort of tribes will form and then people will go tribes will form and then people will go tribes will form and then people will go to war with each other on social media to war with each other on social media to war with each other on social media and you'll have all these, you know, and you'll have all these, you know, and you'll have all these, you know, basically back and forth. You know, all basically back and forth. You know, all basically back and forth. You know, all all of this all of this, you know, all all of this all of this, you know, all all of this all of this, you know, all all both all the humor and all the rage all both all the humor and all the rage all both all the humor and all the rage of of kind of how how how meme culture of of kind of how how how meme culture of of kind of how how how meme culture works. works. works. And so so everything on the internet And so so everything on the internet And so so everything on the internet basically whatever happens in the real basically whatever happens in the real basically whatever happens in the real world becomes like a social media world becomes like a social media world becomes like a social media basically social media viral moment um basically social media viral moment um basically social media viral moment um meme uh complex and then, you know, meme uh complex and then, you know, meme uh complex and then, you know, basically moral panic. Um and you know, basically moral panic. Um and you know, basically moral panic. Um and you know, search for scapegoats. Um right? Like a search for scapegoats. Um right? Like a search for scapegoats. Um right? Like a moral emergency. And and and and that moral emergency. And and and and that moral emergency. And and and and that happens to every single new that happens to every single new that happens to every single new that happens. Right? And so and then you happens. Right? And so and then you happens. Right? And so and then you combine these two and it's like, okay, combine these two and it's like, okay, combine these two and it's like, okay, for better or for worse, we're all in for better or for worse, we're all in for better or for worse, we're all in the same room now. We're like literally the same room now. We're like literally the same room now. We're like literally in the same global village and we're in the same global village and we're in the same global village and we're sort of surfing controversial internet sort of surfing controversial internet sort of surfing controversial internet meme moments over and over and over and meme moments over and over and over and meme moments over and over and over and over again. over again. over again. And as far as I can tell, like if you And as far as I can tell, like if you And as far as I can tell, like if you look at the numbers, basically what look at the numbers, basically what look at the numbers, basically what happens is each viral social media meme happens is each viral social media meme happens is each viral social media meme explosion, it basically is this huge explosion, it basically is this huge explosion, it basically is this huge spike up and then it's like this spike up and then it's like this spike up and then it's like this half-life decay and it lasts about 2 and half-life decay and it lasts about 2 and half-life decay and it lasts about 2 and 1/2 days. 1/2 days. 1/2 days. Uh right. And so each social media Uh right. And so each social media Uh right. And so each social media basically experience is like a 2 and 1/2 basically experience is like a 2 and 1/2 basically experience is like a 2 and 1/2 day basically panic cycle. Um and and day basically panic cycle. Um and and day basically panic cycle. Um and and then what happens is the old one isn't then what happens is the old one isn't then what happens is the old one isn't necessarily ever like resolved or necessarily ever like resolved or necessarily ever like resolved or reconciled, but what happens is a new reconciled, but what happens is a new reconciled, but what happens is a new one appears, a new current thing one appears, a new current thing one appears, a new current thing appears, right? And and just takes over appears, right? And and just takes over appears, right? And and just takes over the the the you know, takes over the the the the you know, takes over the the the the you know, takes over the outrage, right? And all the emotional outrage, right? And all the emotional outrage, right? And all the emotional energy that applied to the old one apply energy that applied to the old one apply energy that applied to the old one apply applies to the new one. Everybody applies to the new one. Everybody applies to the new one. Everybody forgets the old one even happened. Like forgets the old one even happened. Like forgets the old one even happened. Like a week later, you can't even remember a week later, you can't even remember a week later, you can't even remember like like like What was the social media like craze of What was the social media like craze of What was the social media like craze of like 7 days ago? like 7 days ago? like 7 days ago? I mean, it might as well have been like I mean, it might as well have been like I mean, it might as well have been like a thousand years ago. Like lost to the a thousand years ago. Like lost to the a thousand years ago. Like lost to the mists of time. Nobody knows like 7 days mists of time. Nobody knows like 7 days mists of time. Nobody knows like 7 days ago whatever it was was the most ago whatever it was was the most ago whatever it was was the most important thing that's ever happened. important thing that's ever happened. important thing that's ever happened. And 7 days later, it's like it never it And 7 days later, it's like it never it And 7 days later, it's like it never it never not not even a peep. Like nothing never not not even a peep. Like nothing never not not even a peep. Like nothing is it's like completely gone. is it's like completely gone. is it's like completely gone. Um, and so you just you're just going to Um, and so you just you're just going to Um, and so you just you're just going to have this like basically repeated sort have this like basically repeated sort have this like basically repeated sort of you know, emotional shotgun blast of you know, emotional shotgun blast of you know, emotional shotgun blast over and over every 2 and 1/2 days, you over and over every 2 and 1/2 days, you over and over every 2 and 1/2 days, you know, essentially forever. By the way, know, essentially forever. By the way, know, essentially forever. By the way, this is like this is why one of my this is like this is why one of my this is like this is why one of my theories is like it's not possible to theories is like it's not possible to theories is like it's not possible to predict the outcome of politics. So like predict the outcome of politics. So like predict the outcome of politics. So like it's everybody thinks they know what's it's everybody thinks they know what's it's everybody thinks they know what's going to happen in the midterm elections going to happen in the midterm elections going to happen in the midterm elections in November. And I'm like, okay, it's in November. And I'm like, okay, it's in November. And I'm like, okay, it's now whatever. It's it's it's April 20th. now whatever. It's it's it's April 20th. now whatever. It's it's it's April 20th. It's April 20th that It's April 20th that It's April 20th that the election is whatever, November 6th the election is whatever, November 6th the election is whatever, November 6th or whatever. All right, how many 2 and or whatever. All right, how many 2 and or whatever. All right, how many 2 and 1/2 day cycles are there between April 1/2 day cycles are there between April 1/2 day cycles are there between April 20th and November 6th? And I you know, 20th and November 6th? And I you know, 20th and November 6th? And I you know, the the math majors you know, be able to the the math majors you know, be able to the the math majors you know, be able to calculate that in their head, but it's I calculate that in their head, but it's I calculate that in their head, but it's I don't know 100 or something, right? Or don't know 100 or something, right? Or don't know 100 or something, right? Or 120 or something like that. 120 or something like that. 120 or something like that. Like whatever is the thing that we think Like whatever is the thing that we think Like whatever is the thing that we think is the thing that's going to tilt the is the thing that's going to tilt the is the thing that's going to tilt the election today, election today, election today, it's going to be a hundred social media it's going to be a hundred social media it's going to be a hundred social media meme cycles old. Like nobody's going to meme cycles old. Like nobody's going to meme cycles old. Like nobody's going to remember anything that's happening right remember anything that's happening right remember anything that's happening right now. The election is going to turn now. The election is going to turn now. The election is going to turn basically on like whatever's happening basically on like whatever's happening basically on like whatever's happening in the economy and then it's going to be in the economy and then it's going to be in the economy and then it's going to be whatever is like the viral meme panic whatever is like the viral meme panic whatever is like the viral meme panic that's happening like that day. that's happening like that day. that's happening like that day. And so and and you could say like is And so and and you could say like is And so and and you could say like is this good or bad? I don't know. Is this this good or bad? I don't know. Is this this good or bad? I don't know. Is this better or worse than television? I don't better or worse than television? I don't better or worse than television? I don't know. By the way, is this better or know. By the way, is this better or know. By the way, is this better or worse than the days of radio or the days worse than the days of radio or the days worse than the days of radio or the days of you know, I don't know the Pritchard of you know, I don't know the Pritchard of you know, I don't know the Pritchard you know, the you know, the you know, the the revolution that followed the you the revolution that followed the you the revolution that followed the you know, the the arrival of of good the know, the the arrival of of good the know, the the arrival of of good the printing press? Is this better or worse printing press? Is this better or worse printing press? Is this better or worse than the days in which you know, we were than the days in which you know, we were than the days in which you know, we were all reciting epic poetry around the all reciting epic poetry around the all reciting epic poetry around the campfire as our former media? I don't campfire as our former media? I don't campfire as our former media? I don't know. You could have like a big value know. You could have like a big value know. You could have like a big value discussion about you know, which is discussion about you know, which is discussion about you know, which is better or worse. better or worse. better or worse. Um, I I have an argument I will make Um, I I have an argument I will make Um, I I have an argument I will make that this notwithstanding all the that this notwithstanding all the that this notwithstanding all the craziness this is better. But like this craziness this is better. But like this craziness this is better. But like this is the nature of the world we live in um is the nature of the world we live in um is the nature of the world we live in um and it it let put it this way. and it it let put it this way. and it it let put it this way. This is we're now on autopilot. Like the This is we're now on autopilot. Like the This is we're now on autopilot. Like the the the the shape of the media the the the shape of the media the the the shape of the media determines the behavior basically from determines the behavior basically from determines the behavior basically from here on out and and until there's here on out and and until there's here on out and and until there's something that fundamentally displaces something that fundamentally displaces something that fundamentally displaces uh social media like this is the world uh social media like this is the world uh social media like this is the world we live in. Hence the need to monitor we live in. Hence the need to monitor we live in. Hence the need to monitor the situation. the situation. the situation. >> Amen. Is the reason why you think it's >> Amen. Is the reason why you think it's >> Amen. Is the reason why you think it's better is because even though there's better is because even though there's better is because even though there's more noise, there's more signal and as more noise, there's more signal and as more noise, there's more signal and as kind of a collective global brain we get kind of a collective global brain we get kind of a collective global brain we get closer to the truth or closer to the truth or closer to the truth or So I I would say this um we get so a So I I would say this um we get so a So I I would say this um we get so a couple things. Yeah, so one is look I couple things. Yeah, so one is look I couple things. Yeah, so one is look I would say there would say there would say there you could say this there are more truth you could say this there are more truth you could say this there are more truth and more lies. Right? I so so so I would and more lies. Right? I so so so I would and more lies. Right? I so so so I would say that it's it's both of the following say that it's it's both of the following say that it's it's both of the following statements are true which is there's statements are true which is there's statements are true which is there's more truth in social media than we had more truth in social media than we had more truth in social media than we had in previous forms of media and they're in previous forms of media and they're in previous forms of media and they're probably probably I mean old media had a probably probably I mean old media had a probably probably I mean old media had a lot of lies by the way. So it's it's lot of lies by the way. So it's it's lot of lies by the way. So it's it's hard to say there are more lies. But hard to say there are more lies. But hard to say there are more lies. But let's just say there are plenty of lies let's just say there are plenty of lies let's just say there are plenty of lies in social media. Like there are plenty in social media. Like there are plenty in social media. Like there are plenty you know plenty of ops and in in fact you know plenty of ops and in in fact you know plenty of ops and in in fact one of one of the one of the native one of one of the one of the native one of one of the one of the native forms of entertainment of social media forms of entertainment of social media forms of entertainment of social media is trying to spot the ops. is trying to spot the ops. is trying to spot the ops. Um by the way maybe I should pitch you a Um by the way maybe I should pitch you a Um by the way maybe I should pitch you a show for on MTS which is you know maybe show for on MTS which is you know maybe show for on MTS which is you know maybe every day we should do an hour on let's every day we should do an hour on let's every day we should do an hour on let's spot the ops right? Like what you know spot the ops right? Like what you know spot the ops right? Like what you know which ones are real and organic which which ones are real and organic which which ones are real and organic which ones you know which ones are staged ones you know which ones are staged ones you know which ones are staged [ __ ] You know was somebody getting [ __ ] You know was somebody getting [ __ ] You know was somebody getting paid behind the scenes. Um and so you paid behind the scenes. Um and so you paid behind the scenes. Um and so you know and everybody of course focuses on know and everybody of course focuses on know and everybody of course focuses on the downside and so they focus on the the downside and so they focus on the the downside and so they focus on the fact that there's all this all the all fact that there's all this all the all fact that there's all this all the all the all these ops and [ __ ] which is the all these ops and [ __ ] which is the all these ops and [ __ ] which is certainly true. But there's also just certainly true. But there's also just certainly true. But there's also just like the ability for somebody to tell like the ability for somebody to tell like the ability for somebody to tell the truth is like much more direct and the truth is like much more direct and the truth is like much more direct and clear uh than it was before right? clear uh than it was before right? clear uh than it was before right? Because of because of the you know the Because of because of the you know the Because of because of the you know the the collapse of the gatekeepers. And so the collapse of the gatekeepers. And so the collapse of the gatekeepers. And so I I I think both of those are true. So I I I I think both of those are true. So I I I I think both of those are true. So I think that's true and then but the the think that's true and then but the the think that's true and then but the the slightly different argument that I would slightly different argument that I would slightly different argument that I would make um make um make um is that uh previous forms of media were is that uh previous forms of media were is that uh previous forms of media were really good at generating physical really good at generating physical really good at generating physical violence. violence. violence. Um and so um the the I mean there's many Um and so um the the I mean there's many Um and so um the the I mean there's many many examples of this in history but the many examples of this in history but the many examples of this in history but the Spanish the Spanish Civil War um which Spanish the Spanish Civil War um which Spanish the Spanish Civil War um which was kind of the the the war that kind of was kind of the the the war that kind of was kind of the the the war that kind of pre forecasted everything that was going pre forecasted everything that was going pre forecasted everything that was going to all this sort of tragedy of the of to all this sort of tragedy of the of to all this sort of tragedy of the of the 20th century that followed um you the 20th century that followed um you the 20th century that followed um you know the Spanish Civil War was kind of know the Spanish Civil War was kind of know the Spanish Civil War was kind of basically the test bed for both basically the test bed for both basically the test bed for both communism and Nazism uh, in the modern communism and Nazism uh, in the modern communism and Nazism uh, in the modern world. Um, and um, uh, and uh, you know, world. Um, and um, uh, and uh, you know, world. Um, and um, uh, and uh, you know, it it's native media format was posters. it it's native media format was posters. it it's native media format was posters. Um, and so you literally it was like the Um, and so you literally it was like the Um, and so you literally it was like the idea the the ability to cut printed idea the the ability to cut printed idea the the ability to cut printed color propaganda posters was like the color propaganda posters was like the color propaganda posters was like the new media technology at that time like new media technology at that time like new media technology at that time like you right before radio. you right before radio. you right before radio. Um, and the Spanish Civil War was like Um, and the Spanish Civil War was like Um, and the Spanish Civil War was like super violent. Um, and then radio was super violent. Um, and then radio was super violent. Um, and then radio was the technology that led to um, you know, the technology that led to um, you know, the technology that led to um, you know, radio was was was the Nazi regime's radio was was was the Nazi regime's radio was was was the Nazi regime's native media format. Radio was the way native media format. Radio was the way native media format. Radio was the way that basically the the fascist regimes that basically the the fascist regimes that basically the the fascist regimes got established. got established. got established. Um, uh, as well as by the way as well as Um, uh, as well as by the way as well as Um, uh, as well as by the way as well as FDR uh, you know, was was was primarily FDR uh, you know, was was was primarily FDR uh, you know, was was was primarily a radio phenomenon. Um, you know, kind a radio phenomenon. Um, you know, kind a radio phenomenon. Um, you know, kind of the rise of modern, you know, kind of of the rise of modern, you know, kind of of the rise of modern, you know, kind of you know, it's kind of modern modern you know, it's kind of modern modern you know, it's kind of modern modern liberalism. liberalism. liberalism. Um, and then, you know, television, you Um, and then, you know, television, you Um, and then, you know, television, you know, was the native media medium of know, was the native media medium of know, was the native media medium of like you just, you know, television kind like you just, you know, television kind like you just, you know, television kind of kicked in starting around World War of kicked in starting around World War of kicked in starting around World War II. So it played a role, but it it then, II. So it played a role, but it it then, II. So it played a role, but it it then, you know, television had a huge role to you know, television had a huge role to you know, television had a huge role to play in in the Vietnam War. play in in the Vietnam War. play in in the Vietnam War. Um, and then in all of the violent riots Um, and then in all of the violent riots Um, and then in all of the violent riots of the '60s and '70s, you know, which of the '60s and '70s, you know, which of the '60s and '70s, you know, which were kind of you know, super crazy both, were kind of you know, super crazy both, were kind of you know, super crazy both, you know, across the US and Europe. Um, you know, across the US and Europe. Um, you know, across the US and Europe. Um, and so you know, tell television has a and so you know, tell television has a and so you know, tell television has a long history of long history of long history of of leading leading to downstream of leading leading to downstream of leading leading to downstream violence. Um, violence. Um, violence. Um, you know, the fact that we haven't you know, the fact that we haven't you know, the fact that we haven't actually had like the the the fact that actually had like the the the fact that actually had like the the the fact that like political violence is at like an like political violence is at like an like political violence is at like an all-time low in Western society is all-time low in Western society is all-time low in Western society is something that people really don't talk something that people really don't talk something that people really don't talk about. Um, and it feels like we must be about. Um, and it feels like we must be about. Um, and it feels like we must be in this like super politically violent in this like super politically violent in this like super politically violent world because everybody's so angry about world because everybody's so angry about world because everybody's so angry about politics all the time, but like measured politics all the time, but like measured politics all the time, but like measured political violence is is at like an political violence is is at like an political violence is is at like an all-time low. And so so my theory is the all-time low. And so so my theory is the all-time low. And so so my theory is the the ability to directly participate in the ability to directly participate in the ability to directly participate in online virtual combat uh, is shunting online virtual combat uh, is shunting online virtual combat uh, is shunting away a lot of the energy that in the away a lot of the energy that in the away a lot of the energy that in the past would have would have translated to past would have would have translated to past would have would have translated to street violence. street violence. street violence. And so and so I so it's it's sort of And so and so I so it's it's sort of And so and so I so it's it's sort of this thing is if if the virtual world this thing is if if the virtual world this thing is if if the virtual world can become arbitrarily rhetorically can become arbitrarily rhetorically can become arbitrarily rhetorically violent violent violent without people actually getting without people actually getting without people actually getting physically hurt. And that gives people a physically hurt. And that gives people a physically hurt. And that gives people a way to exercise all of their anger and way to exercise all of their anger and way to exercise all of their anger and rage over politics and to be able to rage over politics and to be able to rage over politics and to be able to attack, you know, the the hated enemy attack, you know, the the hated enemy attack, you know, the the hated enemy uh, without having it actually be uh, without having it actually be uh, without having it actually be something that translates to physical something that translates to physical something that translates to physical violence. violence. violence. Um, and so so yeah, my it's like I don't Um, and so so yeah, my it's like I don't Um, and so so yeah, my it's like I don't know, social media wars up, you know, know, social media wars up, you know, know, social media wars up, you know, physical violence down. physical violence down. physical violence down. Nobody wants to hear that cuz Nobody wants to hear that cuz Nobody wants to hear that cuz everybody's so mad all the time about everybody's so mad all the time about everybody's so mad all the time about what's happening online, but but I think what's happening online, but but I think what's happening online, but but I think that that's character Like, if you're that that's character Like, if you're that that's character Like, if you're sitting at home scrolling social media sitting at home scrolling social media sitting at home scrolling social media getting mad, like at least you're not getting mad, like at least you're not getting mad, like at least you're not out on the street like hurting people. out on the street like hurting people. out on the street like hurting people. So, that's my That's my moral defense of So, that's my That's my moral defense of So, that's my That's my moral defense of the whole thing. Well, it's fascinating the whole thing. Well, it's fascinating the whole thing. Well, it's fascinating because there's kind of a different kind because there's kind of a different kind because there's kind of a different kind of of of ideological sorting happening cuz cuz ideological sorting happening cuz cuz ideological sorting happening cuz cuz people you you say things like, "Hey, people you you say things like, "Hey, people you you say things like, "Hey, you know, now they can't even talk to you know, now they can't even talk to you know, now they can't even talk to their own families cuz they've sort of their own families cuz they've sort of their own families cuz they've sort of found their tribe online that it that found their tribe online that it that found their tribe online that it that agrees with them." Uh and uh you know, agrees with them." Uh and uh you know, agrees with them." Uh and uh you know, it's it's no longer the people they it's it's no longer the people they it's it's no longer the people they it's it's no longer their families and it's it's no longer their families and it's it's no longer their families and and back in the day, you know, you and back in the day, you know, you and back in the day, you know, you didn't have as as much uh po- po- this didn't have as as much uh po- po- this didn't have as as much uh po- po- this or the the logic goes, as much political or the the logic goes, as much political or the the logic goes, as much political polarization of the idea that I can't polarization of the idea that I can't polarization of the idea that I can't even talk to someone not not from the even talk to someone not not from the even talk to someone not not from the same side. Pa- Part of that perhaps is same side. Pa- Part of that perhaps is same side. Pa- Part of that perhaps is because the internet allows them to find because the internet allows them to find because the internet allows them to find their tribe so, you know, so strongly their tribe so, you know, so strongly their tribe so, you know, so strongly and so clearly that they're able to uh and so clearly that they're able to uh and so clearly that they're able to uh you know, have an exclusionary tribe as you know, have an exclusionary tribe as you know, have an exclusionary tribe as well. But, I guess well. But, I guess well. But, I guess one response to political polarization one response to political polarization one response to political polarization argument uh is that, "Hey, at least it's argument uh is that, "Hey, at least it's argument uh is that, "Hey, at least it's not going to uh you know, leading to not going to uh you know, leading to not going to uh you know, leading to physical combat." Uh physical combat." Uh physical combat." Uh wh- what might you say more broadly? Is wh- what might you say more broadly? Is wh- what might you say more broadly? Is is it just overstated in general because is it just overstated in general because is it just overstated in general because people also have this idea of filter people also have this idea of filter people also have this idea of filter bubbles, too. But, uh of course, it in bubbles, too. But, uh of course, it in bubbles, too. But, uh of course, it in some ways it's the opposite in the sense some ways it's the opposite in the sense some ways it's the opposite in the sense that the internet exposes you to ideas that the internet exposes you to ideas that the internet exposes you to ideas that you wouldn't have seen otherwise. that you wouldn't have seen otherwise. that you wouldn't have seen otherwise. Right. Yeah, so I think people just have Right. Yeah, so I think people just have Right. Yeah, so I think people just have a really rose-colored glasses view of a really rose-colored glasses view of a really rose-colored glasses view of the past. The The past gets sanded off the past. The The past gets sanded off the past. The The past gets sanded off like in part cuz we only interpret the like in part cuz we only interpret the like in part cuz we only interpret the pa- you know, a number one is we we pa- you know, a number one is we we pa- you know, a number one is we we weren't there. And then the modern weren't there. And then the modern weren't there. And then the modern interpreters of the past, you know, are interpreters of the past, you know, are interpreters of the past, you know, are often quite honestly not telling us the often quite honestly not telling us the often quite honestly not telling us the truth about what happened because they truth about what happened because they truth about what happened because they they have their own modern kind of, you they have their own modern kind of, you they have their own modern kind of, you know, gloss or spin they want to put on know, gloss or spin they want to put on know, gloss or spin they want to put on it. it. it. Um and so uh but just the edges of the Um and so uh but just the edges of the Um and so uh but just the edges of the past gets sanded off in in in past gets sanded off in in in past gets sanded off in in in retrospect. But, it's just like it's retrospect. But, it's just like it's retrospect. But, it's just like it's really significant like if you just really significant like if you just really significant like if you just Like the easiest thing to do easiest Like the easiest thing to do easiest Like the easiest thing to do easiest thing is just go go on YouTube and watch thing is just go go on YouTube and watch thing is just go go on YouTube and watch old episodes of a TV show called All All old episodes of a TV show called All All old episodes of a TV show called All All in the Family. in the Family. in the Family. Um which was a which was a a very uh a Um which was a which was a a very uh a Um which was a which was a a very uh a very famous uh successful TV show when I very famous uh successful TV show when I very famous uh successful TV show when I was a kid. Um and All in the Family was was a kid. Um and All in the Family was was a kid. Um and All in the Family was a microcosm uh fictional microcosm of a microcosm uh fictional microcosm of a microcosm uh fictional microcosm of basically the culture wars, political basically the culture wars, political basically the culture wars, political wars of the of the late '60s into the wars of the of the late '60s into the wars of the of the late '60s into the 1970s. Um and it was like, you know 1970s. Um and it was like, you know 1970s. Um and it was like, you know there's famously this this character there's famously this this character there's famously this this character Archie Bunker Archie Bunker Archie Bunker who sort of represented, you know, this who sort of represented, you know, this who sort of represented, you know, this is white guy and he he basically is white guy and he he basically is white guy and he he basically represent great brilliant actor named represent great brilliant actor named represent great brilliant actor named Carroll O'Connor played him and he Carroll O'Connor played him and he Carroll O'Connor played him and he basically played a retrograde basically basically played a retrograde basically basically played a retrograde basically Republican, you know, Nixon supporting Republican, you know, Nixon supporting Republican, you know, Nixon supporting Republican in this would be in like I Republican in this would be in like I Republican in this would be in like I don't know 1972 or something 1974. don't know 1972 or something 1974. don't know 1972 or something 1974. Um who just basically was was was Um who just basically was was was Um who just basically was was was painted in the show as like the most painted in the show as like the most painted in the show as like the most backwards like basically archaic, you backwards like basically archaic, you backwards like basically archaic, you know, knuckle dragging racist, sexist, know, knuckle dragging racist, sexist, know, knuckle dragging racist, sexist, just like the worst possible person in just like the worst possible person in just like the worst possible person in the world. And then there was his the world. And then there was his the world. And then there was his son-in-law played by young Rob Reiner son-in-law played by young Rob Reiner son-in-law played by young Rob Reiner who who who who who who Archie Bunker nicknamed Meathead. Um Archie Bunker nicknamed Meathead. Um Archie Bunker nicknamed Meathead. Um which is what the character became known which is what the character became known which is what the character became known as and and and Meathead was basically as and and and Meathead was basically as and and and Meathead was basically just the arch progressive liberal, just the arch progressive liberal, just the arch progressive liberal, right? right? right? You know, sort of like you know, think I You know, sort of like you know, think I You know, sort of like you know, think I don't know young Gavin Newsom or don't know young Gavin Newsom or don't know young Gavin Newsom or something, right? Where he just like he something, right? Where he just like he something, right? Where he just like he had just like the exact politically had just like the exact politically had just like the exact politically correct approved view of the time and so correct approved view of the time and so correct approved view of the time and so he's like, you know, super at the time, he's like, you know, super at the time, he's like, you know, super at the time, you know, the equivalent then of super you know, the equivalent then of super you know, the equivalent then of super woke, super progressive, you know, super woke, super progressive, you know, super woke, super progressive, you know, super liberal, super enlightened on uh on all liberal, super enlightened on uh on all liberal, super enlightened on uh on all these issues. And and the the conceit of these issues. And and the the conceit of these issues. And and the the conceit of the show, you know, and the guy who did the show, you know, and the guy who did the show, you know, and the guy who did create the show is this famous create the show is this famous create the show is this famous television producer named Norman Lear television producer named Norman Lear television producer named Norman Lear and the conceit of the show was supposed and the conceit of the show was supposed and the conceit of the show was supposed to be a moral it was supposed to be a to be a moral it was supposed to be a to be a moral it was supposed to be a moral lesson of Meathead giving moral lesson of Meathead giving moral lesson of Meathead giving basically moral lectures to Archie basically moral lectures to Archie basically moral lectures to Archie Bunker every week to try to get Archie Bunker every week to try to get Archie Bunker every week to try to get Archie Bunker to stop being such a Bunker to stop being such a Bunker to stop being such a backwards-looking like 1950s retrograde backwards-looking like 1950s retrograde backwards-looking like 1950s retrograde basically racist sexist guy and and come basically racist sexist guy and and come basically racist sexist guy and and come into the modern world. And of course into the modern world. And of course into the modern world. And of course what happened was Carroll O'Connor what happened was Carroll O'Connor what happened was Carroll O'Connor number one the actor was just like super number one the actor was just like super number one the actor was just like super funny. Uh but the other was the the funny. Uh but the other was the the funny. Uh but the other was the the political environment was superheated at political environment was superheated at political environment was superheated at that point and and of course it turned that point and and of course it turned that point and and of course it turned out Archie Bunker ended up being the out Archie Bunker ended up being the out Archie Bunker ended up being the star of the show. star of the show. star of the show. Uh and and so the the show ended up Uh and and so the the show ended up Uh and and so the the show ended up being the opposite of kind of what what being the opposite of kind of what what being the opposite of kind of what what it was intended to be. Uh that happened it was intended to be. Uh that happened it was intended to be. Uh that happened later in the 80s it happened in the show later in the 80s it happened in the show later in the 80s it happened in the show called Family Ties called Family Ties called Family Ties which was again it was a very similar which was again it was a very similar which was again it was a very similar thing which it was it was these two thing which it was it was these two thing which it was it was these two parents baby boomer parents in the 80s parents baby boomer parents in the 80s parents baby boomer parents in the 80s and they were like super, you know, very and they were like super, you know, very and they were like super, you know, very left-wing producers who made the show left-wing producers who made the show left-wing producers who made the show and the characters were like super and the characters were like super and the characters were like super proper left-wing progressive. And then proper left-wing progressive. And then proper left-wing progressive. And then there was this character in the show there was this character in the show there was this character in the show Michael J. Fox their their son who was Michael J. Fox their their son who was Michael J. Fox their their son who was this teenage kid, um and um he played this teenage kid, um and um he played this teenage kid, um and um he played the I forget the name I'm I'm blanking the I forget the name I'm I'm blanking the I forget the name I'm I'm blanking on the name of the character, but he on the name of the character, but he on the name of the character, but he played played the son. And the son played played the son. And the son played played the son. And the son basically was a Reagan Republican as a basically was a Reagan Republican as a basically was a Reagan Republican as a teenager, right? And and literally the teenager, right? And and literally the teenager, right? And and literally the son would like wear like sport jackets son would like wear like sport jackets son would like wear like sport jackets and ties to school and carry a and ties to school and carry a and ties to school and carry a briefcase. And they kind of wanted to briefcase. And they kind of wanted to briefcase. And they kind of wanted to make him into like a stereotype of like make him into like a stereotype of like make him into like a stereotype of like basically uh you know, sort of a weird basically uh you know, sort of a weird basically uh you know, sort of a weird Republican, you know, kind of weirdo. Um Republican, you know, kind of weirdo. Um Republican, you know, kind of weirdo. Um and again, the same the same sort of and again, the same the same sort of and again, the same the same sort of weird thing happened, which is actually weird thing happened, which is actually weird thing happened, which is actually the Michael J. Fox character became Oh, the Michael J. Fox character became Oh, the Michael J. Fox character became Oh, uh Alex Alex Keaton was Alex uh was the uh Alex Alex Keaton was Alex uh was the uh Alex Alex Keaton was Alex uh was the character's name. Uh Alex P. Keaton, um character's name. Uh Alex P. Keaton, um character's name. Uh Alex P. Keaton, um you know, he essentially became the star you know, he essentially became the star you know, he essentially became the star of the show. And so I bring up both of of the show. And so I bring up both of of the show. And so I bring up both of those shows cuz you can see in those those shows cuz you can see in those those shows cuz you can see in those shows you can see the culture wars of shows you can see the culture wars of shows you can see the culture wars of the '70s, which were actually like super the '70s, which were actually like super the '70s, which were actually like super intense. You can see the culture wars of intense. You can see the culture wars of intense. You can see the culture wars of the '80s, which were super intense. the '80s, which were super intense. the '80s, which were super intense. You go back before that and you have the You go back before that and you have the You go back before that and you have the Vietnam War and the the all the campus Vietnam War and the the all the campus Vietnam War and the the all the campus protests and the civil rights movement protests and the civil rights movement protests and the civil rights movement and all the riots and all the forced you and all the riots and all the forced you and all the riots and all the forced you know, everything, you know, dropping the know, everything, you know, dropping the know, everything, you know, dropping the 101st Airborne into you know, rural you 101st Airborne into you know, rural you 101st Airborne into you know, rural you know, the rural South to you know, know, the rural South to you know, know, the rural South to you know, basically, you know, desegregate the basically, you know, desegregate the basically, you know, desegregate the schools at literally gunpoint. Um you go schools at literally gunpoint. Um you go schools at literally gunpoint. Um you go back before that, you have the Cold War, back before that, you have the Cold War, back before that, you have the Cold War, you know, you have the Red Scare, um you you know, you have the Red Scare, um you you know, you have the Red Scare, um you know, it's now known as the Red Scare, know, it's now known as the Red Scare, know, it's now known as the Red Scare, but you had, you know, communists all but you had, you know, communists all but you had, you know, communists all through the US government and you had through the US government and you had through the US government and you had all kinds of freak outs about that. You all kinds of freak outs about that. You all kinds of freak outs about that. You had the risk of nuclear annihilation. had the risk of nuclear annihilation. had the risk of nuclear annihilation. You go back before that, you had World You go back before that, you had World You go back before that, you had World War II, War II, War II, which was like this like just like which was like this like just like which was like this like just like incredible global orgy of violence. You incredible global orgy of violence. You incredible global orgy of violence. You go back before that, you had the Great go back before that, you had the Great go back before that, you had the Great Depression and the you know, the New Depression and the you know, the New Depression and the you know, the New Deal, which was hugely controversial. Deal, which was hugely controversial. Deal, which was hugely controversial. You go back before that, you had World You go back before that, you had World You go back before that, you had World War World War I, you know, and then you War World War I, you know, and then you War World War I, you know, and then you go and then you know, if you keep going go and then you know, if you keep going go and then you know, if you keep going back, it's like you have the Civil War back, it's like you have the Civil War back, it's like you have the Civil War and then you have the Napoleonic Wars and then you have the Napoleonic Wars and then you have the Napoleonic Wars and then you've got the French and then you've got the French and then you've got the French Revolution and you know, and then you go Revolution and you know, and then you go Revolution and you know, and then you go back further than that, you've got the back further than that, you've got the back further than that, you've got the you know, the the democratic revolutions you know, the the democratic revolutions you know, the the democratic revolutions uh all through Europe and then you've uh all through Europe and then you've uh all through Europe and then you've got the you know, the the Gutenberg got the you know, the the Gutenberg got the you know, the the Gutenberg printing press kicking off all kinds of printing press kicking off all kinds of printing press kicking off all kinds of violence, you know, throughout Europe in violence, you know, throughout Europe in violence, you know, throughout Europe in the 1600s. Um and so I just think like the 1600s. Um and so I just think like the 1600s. Um and so I just think like the history of Western civilization, the history of Western civilization, the history of Western civilization, American European society is just like American European society is just like American European society is just like constant strife and warfare to like an constant strife and warfare to like an constant strife and warfare to like an absurd degree um over this entire absurd degree um over this entire absurd degree um over this entire period. And we we go back and we study period. And we we go back and we study period. And we we go back and we study the history and we're just kind of like, the history and we're just kind of like, the history and we're just kind of like, "Wow, like those people were like really "Wow, like those people were like really "Wow, like those people were like really really really violent. Like really crazy really really violent. Like really crazy really really violent. Like really crazy and really violent." And boy, did they and really violent." And boy, did they and really violent." And boy, did they really like killing. really like killing. really like killing. It was not that long ago and I don't It was not that long ago and I don't It was not that long ago and I don't think there's anybody alive now, but it think there's anybody alive now, but it think there's anybody alive now, but it was not that long ago that like grown was not that long ago that like grown was not that long ago that like grown men like in serious positions of power men like in serious positions of power men like in serious positions of power and authority in the US that they got and authority in the US that they got and authority in the US that they got mad at each other, they would literally mad at each other, they would literally mad at each other, they would literally have a physical duel. have a physical duel. have a physical duel. Right? Like so you know, you and I you Right? Like so you know, you and I you Right? Like so you know, you and I you and I start going at it on social media and I start going at it on social media and I start going at it on social media and we get to a point where you get and we get to a point where you get and we get to a point where you get really mad and I challenge you to a duel really mad and I challenge you to a duel really mad and I challenge you to a duel and like we show up in a [ __ ] field and like we show up in a [ __ ] field and like we show up in a [ __ ] field in a [ __ ] park, you know, at like in a [ __ ] park, you know, at like in a [ __ ] park, you know, at like 6:00 in the morning with guns, right? 6:00 in the morning with guns, right? 6:00 in the morning with guns, right? And we like square off and march off and And we like square off and march off and And we like square off and march off and then we turn around and we try to like then we turn around and we try to like then we turn around and we try to like literally shoot each other to death. literally shoot each other to death. literally shoot each other to death. And like a thing that they did and that And like a thing that they did and that And like a thing that they did and that was like a normal part of life. was like a normal part of life. was like a normal part of life. Wait, Mark, I thought the past was all Wait, Mark, I thought the past was all Wait, Mark, I thought the past was all matriarchies and everyone just so matriarchies and everyone just so matriarchies and everyone just so peaceful and Oh, everybody was so peaceful and Oh, everybody was so peaceful and Oh, everybody was so wonderful. Everybody got along. wonderful. Everybody got along. wonderful. Everybody got along. Everybody all Yes, until social media Everybody all Yes, until social media Everybody all Yes, until social media everybody thought the same thing. everybody thought the same thing. everybody thought the same thing. Yes, exactly and everybody was all Yes, Yes, exactly and everybody was all Yes, Yes, exactly and everybody was all Yes, everybody was all calm and happy all the everybody was all calm and happy all the everybody was all calm and happy all the time. time. time. Um and so Um and so Um and so You look, the the the the the the way You look, the the the the the the way You look, the the the the the the way the way the way the world is conflict I the way the way the world is conflict I the way the way the world is conflict I just historically the way the world is just historically the way the world is just historically the way the world is conflict and anyway, not to not to beat conflict and anyway, not to not to beat conflict and anyway, not to not to beat a dead horse, but they a dead horse, but they a dead horse, but they you know, you know, you know, There was plenty of conflict in the There was plenty of conflict in the There was plenty of conflict in the past. There were plenty of heated past. There were plenty of heated past. There were plenty of heated disagreements in the future shape of disagreements in the future shape of disagreements in the future shape of society. There were plenty of political society. There were plenty of political society. There were plenty of political wars. There were plenty of violent wars. wars. There were plenty of violent wars. wars. There were plenty of violent wars. By the way, just politics itself was By the way, just politics itself was By the way, just politics itself was much more violent. Like if you go back much more violent. Like if you go back much more violent. Like if you go back and you read about political movements and you read about political movements and you read about political movements 100 years ago, like they would literally 100 years ago, like they would literally 100 years ago, like they would literally form up in the street and like [ __ ] form up in the street and like [ __ ] form up in the street and like [ __ ] you try to kill each other. you try to kill each other. you try to kill each other. >> Yeah. Um like it was like a common >> Yeah. Um like it was like a common >> Yeah. Um like it was like a common thing. thing. thing. You know, strikes I mean even the You know, strikes I mean even the You know, strikes I mean even the history of the labor movement is full of history of the labor movement is full of history of the labor movement is full of this. Like strikes became super violent. this. Like strikes became super violent. this. Like strikes became super violent. Um and you know, management would like Um and you know, management would like Um and you know, management would like literally you know, this the strikers literally you know, this the strikers literally you know, this the strikers would try to attack their plants and the would try to attack their plants and the would try to attack their plants and the management literally would have like management literally would have like management literally would have like machine guns and they'd be like machine machine guns and they'd be like machine machine guns and they'd be like machine gunning their striking workers. gunning their striking workers. gunning their striking workers. Crazy crazy stuff. And so like Crazy crazy stuff. And so like Crazy crazy stuff. And so like we just we live in a much crazier world we just we live in a much crazier world we just we live in a much crazier world than we want to give ourselves credit than we want to give ourselves credit than we want to give ourselves credit for and the idea that like the current for and the idea that like the current for and the idea that like the current level of conflict is something new is level of conflict is something new is level of conflict is something new is just not true. And and just to that end just not true. And and just to that end just not true. And and just to that end too, when people say, "Oh, ever since too, when people say, "Oh, ever since too, when people say, "Oh, ever since 2008 or you know, your smartphone sort 2008 or you know, your smartphone sort 2008 or you know, your smartphone sort of you know, propagating that of you know, propagating that of you know, propagating that it's led to increased depression or it's led to increased depression or it's led to increased depression or things like that." Is that also another things like that." Is that also another things like that." Is that also another example of hey, we were underestimating example of hey, we were underestimating example of hey, we were underestimating how depressed people were prior and it's how depressed people were prior and it's how depressed people were prior and it's It's of a measurement thing or is it oh, It's of a measurement thing or is it oh, It's of a measurement thing or is it oh, but there was a lot of other things but there was a lot of other things but there was a lot of other things happening in 2018 like you know, happening in 2018 like you know, happening in 2018 like you know, political extremism and and other things political extremism and and other things political extremism and and other things that that make people more depressed or that that make people more depressed or that that make people more depressed or how do you how do you engage in that how do you how do you engage in that how do you how do you engage in that that topic? Well, so the funny thing is that topic? Well, so the funny thing is that topic? Well, so the funny thing is different Western countries have different Western countries have different Western countries have different that show different data on different that show different data on different that show different data on the quote and quote rise in in the quote and quote rise in in the quote and quote rise in in depression. Yeah. Um and it basically depression. Yeah. Um and it basically depression. Yeah. Um and it basically basically turns out it correlates to basically turns out it correlates to basically turns out it correlates to social benefits programs. social benefits programs. social benefits programs. Um and so basically if you get paid uh Um and so basically if you get paid uh Um and so basically if you get paid uh or if you get like special dispensation or if you get like special dispensation or if you get like special dispensation in school for having you know, in school for having you know, in school for having you know, psychological issues all of a sudden you psychological issues all of a sudden you psychological issues all of a sudden you see a massive spike in those see a massive spike in those see a massive spike in those psychological issues. The countries that psychological issues. The countries that psychological issues. The countries that don't have that the other Western don't have that the other Western don't have that the other Western countries that don't have that don't countries that don't have that don't countries that don't have that don't show the same results. And so I I show the same results. And so I I show the same results. And so I I actually think that's a statistical actually think that's a statistical actually think that's a statistical artifact uh of literally like government artifact uh of literally like government artifact uh of literally like government benefits programs. benefits programs. benefits programs. Um so I I like I I don't even yeah, I Um so I I like I I don't even yeah, I Um so I I like I I don't even yeah, I would I would say I don't I don't I would I would say I don't I don't I would I would say I don't I don't I don't even I don't even I don't even don't even I don't even I don't even don't even I don't even I don't even concede the uh you know, concede the concede the uh you know, concede the concede the uh you know, concede the premise of the question but that's premise of the question but that's premise of the question but that's that's that's a longer debate. Um I that's that's a longer debate. Um I that's that's a longer debate. Um I would just say in general like I guess would just say in general like I guess would just say in general like I guess what I'd say I'm I'm I'm prepared to say what I'd say I'm I'm I'm prepared to say what I'd say I'm I'm I'm prepared to say that basically call it since I don't that basically call it since I don't that basically call it since I don't know, 2014 or something I'm prepared to know, 2014 or something I'm prepared to know, 2014 or something I'm prepared to say like it does feel like things have say like it does feel like things have say like it does feel like things have intensified. Right, it it it does feel intensified. Right, it it it does feel intensified. Right, it it it does feel like things are like wilder. like things are like wilder. like things are like wilder. Um you know, than they were before that. Um you know, than they were before that. Um you know, than they were before that. Um Um Um I think the most that I would be willing I think the most that I would be willing I think the most that I would be willing to say though is I think we might have to say though is I think we might have to say though is I think we might have lived through an era of what you might lived through an era of what you might lived through an era of what you might call suppressed volatility. Um and call call suppressed volatility. Um and call call suppressed volatility. Um and call that maybe from like the end of the Cold that maybe from like the end of the Cold that maybe from like the end of the Cold War through 2014. War through 2014. War through 2014. Um where basically it just looked like Um where basically it just looked like Um where basically it just looked like the West had won everything. Um and then the West had won everything. Um and then the West had won everything. Um and then also it was sort of by the way, it was also it was sort of by the way, it was also it was sort of by the way, it was sort of the peak heyday of centralized sort of the peak heyday of centralized sort of the peak heyday of centralized media. Um so it would if you just like media. Um so it would if you just like media. Um so it would if you just like if you basically track if you track like if you basically track if you track like if you basically track if you track like how distributed is media versus how how distributed is media versus how how distributed is media versus how centralized is media like centralized centralized is media like centralized centralized is media like centralized media sort of peaked somewhere around media sort of peaked somewhere around media sort of peaked somewhere around 1970. 1970. 1970. Um where you know, literally like all Um where you know, literally like all Um where you know, literally like all the newspapers in every city the newspapers in every city the newspapers in every city consolidated down to like a single consolidated down to like a single consolidated down to like a single newspaper and then you ended up with newspaper and then you ended up with newspaper and then you ended up with only three television networks and all only three television networks and all only three television networks and all the radio stations independent radio the radio stations independent radio the radio stations independent radio stations got bought up. stations got bought up. stations got bought up. Uh let me give you an example. So Uh let me give you an example. So Uh let me give you an example. So historically so historically like if you historically so historically like if you historically so historically like if you go back to the days of the American go back to the days of the American go back to the days of the American Revolution it was common in in even like Revolution it was common in in even like Revolution it was common in in even like mid-size cities you would have like 10 mid-size cities you would have like 10 mid-size cities you would have like 10 or 15 different newspapers. or 15 different newspapers. or 15 different newspapers. Um and each newspaper would represent Um and each newspaper would represent Um and each newspaper would represent like a different political point of like a different political point of like a different political point of view. And then the the newspapers would view. And then the the newspapers would view. And then the the newspapers would have these like furious you know, have these like furious you know, have these like furious you know, they've just like just like you you they've just like just like you you they've just like just like you you would do today online. You You They would do today online. You You They would do today online. You You They would just have these furious constant would just have these furious constant would just have these furious constant political, you know, fighting and political, you know, fighting and political, you know, fighting and accusations back and forth and accusations back and forth and accusations back and forth and arguments. And of course the newspaper arguments. And of course the newspaper arguments. And of course the newspaper owners would be trying to egg all that owners would be trying to egg all that owners would be trying to egg all that stuff on cuz it sold papers. But it was stuff on cuz it sold papers. But it was stuff on cuz it sold papers. But it was like very common to have like many like very common to have like many like very common to have like many newspapers per city that would all fight newspapers per city that would all fight newspapers per city that would all fight with each other. And then the economics with each other. And then the economics with each other. And then the economics of centralized media meant that those of centralized media meant that those of centralized media meant that those all rolled up into into a single all rolled up into into a single all rolled up into into a single newspaper. newspaper. newspaper. Um and and then and then that single Um and and then and then that single Um and and then and then that single newspaper, you know, at least for a newspaper, you know, at least for a newspaper, you know, at least for a while tried to be non-partisan and tried while tried to be non-partisan and tried while tried to be non-partisan and tried to be even-handed cuz it was trying to to be even-handed cuz it was trying to to be even-handed cuz it was trying to appeal to everybody. appeal to everybody. appeal to everybody. Um and then and so and again same thing Um and then and so and again same thing Um and then and so and again same thing of just like, you know, like when I was of just like, you know, like when I was of just like, you know, like when I was a kid there was three television a kid there was three television a kid there was three television networks that were all basically the networks that were all basically the networks that were all basically the same. Uh they were all trying very hard same. Uh they were all trying very hard same. Uh they were all trying very hard to be even-handed at least, you know, to be even-handed at least, you know, to be even-handed at least, you know, kind of as best they could. kind of as best they could. kind of as best they could. Uh there were like three national news Uh there were like three national news Uh there were like three national news magazines. Um you know, there were like magazines. Um you know, there were like magazines. Um you know, there were like I don't know there was a small number of I don't know there was a small number of I don't know there was a small number of national radio networks. Um you know, national radio networks. Um you know, national radio networks. Um you know, there were two, you know, news wire there were two, you know, news wire there were two, you know, news wire services. And so I like I I I will services. And so I like I I I will services. And so I like I I I will concede like I think we lived through a concede like I think we lived through a concede like I think we lived through a period of suppressed volatility as a period of suppressed volatility as a period of suppressed volatility as a consequence of the fact that we had consequence of the fact that we had consequence of the fact that we had overly centralized media. I think if you overly centralized media. I think if you overly centralized media. I think if you go back before that, like if you go back go back before that, like if you go back go back before that, like if you go back to before that, if you go back to like to before that, if you go back to like to before that, if you go back to like the 1930s and before, like media was the 1930s and before, like media was the 1930s and before, like media was much more fragmented. Uh it was it was much more fragmented. Uh it was it was much more fragmented. Uh it was it was much more like it is today. And then if much more like it is today. And then if much more like it is today. And then if you like I said, if you go all the way you like I said, if you go all the way you like I said, if you go all the way back like 200 250 years ago, it was like back like 200 250 years ago, it was like back like 200 250 years ago, it was like extremely fragmented. Like if you read extremely fragmented. Like if you read extremely fragmented. Like if you read the accounts of like Ben Franklin as a the accounts of like Ben Franklin as a the accounts of like Ben Franklin as a newspaper publisher and like the the the newspaper publisher and like the the the newspaper publisher and like the the the stuff that he got up to with his stuff that he got up to with his stuff that he got up to with his newspaper. So Okay, great story. So Ben newspaper. So Okay, great story. So Ben newspaper. So Okay, great story. So Ben Franklin ran one of the newspapers in Franklin ran one of the newspapers in Franklin ran one of the newspapers in Philadelphia originally as a as a Philadelphia originally as a as a Philadelphia originally as a as a printer. Okay, so what would happen is printer. Okay, so what would happen is printer. Okay, so what would happen is Ben Franklin wants to become a pretty Ben Franklin wants to become a pretty Ben Franklin wants to become a pretty much become a commercial printer. He much become a commercial printer. He much become a commercial printer. He buys a printing press. He advertises the buys a printing press. He advertises the buys a printing press. He advertises the whatever and tries to get like all the whatever and tries to get like all the whatever and tries to get like all the local businesses like print pamphlets in local businesses like print pamphlets in local businesses like print pamphlets in the printing press, but he doesn't have the printing press, but he doesn't have the printing press, but he doesn't have enough business for the printing press. enough business for the printing press. enough business for the printing press. And so he starts a newspaper to have And so he starts a newspaper to have And so he starts a newspaper to have something to print. something to print. something to print. Um and so he starts this newspaper. Um and so he starts this newspaper. Um and so he starts this newspaper. There's like 15 other newspapers in There's like 15 other newspapers in There's like 15 other newspapers in Philadelphia at the time. But he's got Philadelphia at the time. But he's got Philadelphia at the time. But he's got to fill the newspaper with something. to fill the newspaper with something. to fill the newspaper with something. And so in he's Ben Franklin, he's very And so in he's Ben Franklin, he's very And so in he's Ben Franklin, he's very creative. And so he creates basically creative. And so he creates basically creative. And so he creates basically sock puppets. sock puppets. sock puppets. He does basically He does basically He does basically He does basically He does basically He does basically alts. He does alts. Alts. He does alts. alts. He does alts. Alts. He does alts. alts. He does alts. Alts. He does alts. So Yeah, yeah, exactly. Alts. Um So Yeah, yeah, exactly. Alts. Um So Yeah, yeah, exactly. Alts. Um and they're all under pseudonyms. Um and and they're all under pseudonyms. Um and and they're all under pseudonyms. Um and so he does I forget the all the names so he does I forget the all the names so he does I forget the all the names now, but he had, you know, he had all now, but he had, you know, he had all now, but he had, you know, he had all these different he had all these these different he had all these these different he had all these different different names for them. And different different names for them. And different different names for them. And I think at one point in his own I think at one point in his own I think at one point in his own newspaper he had like 15 different alts newspaper he had like 15 different alts newspaper he had like 15 different alts uh going at it. And he he he he wrote uh going at it. And he he he he wrote uh going at it. And he he he he wrote them all but under different names. And them all but under different names. And them all but under different names. And they all had like very different points they all had like very different points they all had like very different points of view. And then he would basically set of view. And then he would basically set of view. And then he would basically set them off to have these like raging them off to have these like raging them off to have these like raging arguments with each other in his arguments with each other in his arguments with each other in his newspaper. And people would buy his newspaper. And people would buy his newspaper. And people would buy his people would buy his newspaper to cover people would buy his newspaper to cover people would buy his newspaper to cover this. And then that that culminated in this. And then that that culminated in this. And then that that culminated in the election of 1800, which was the the election of 1800, which was the the election of 1800, which was the famous election of Thomas Jefferson famous election of Thomas Jefferson famous election of Thomas Jefferson versus John Adams, which was sort of versus John Adams, which was sort of versus John Adams, which was sort of this newspaper centric election, which this newspaper centric election, which this newspaper centric election, which was characterized by a level of slander. was characterized by a level of slander. was characterized by a level of slander. Like the degree to which partisans of Like the degree to which partisans of Like the degree to which partisans of Thomas Jefferson and John Adams attacked Thomas Jefferson and John Adams attacked Thomas Jefferson and John Adams attacked each other in the 1800 election is like each other in the 1800 election is like each other in the 1800 election is like way beyond even what we see today on way beyond even what we see today on way beyond even what we see today on social media. Like they accused each social media. Like they accused each social media. Like they accused each other of the most horrible [ __ ] you can other of the most horrible [ __ ] you can other of the most horrible [ __ ] you can possibly imagine. possibly imagine. possibly imagine. Um and it became like this giant Um and it became like this giant Um and it became like this giant scandal. scandal. scandal. And so like this is not the the idea And so like this is not the the idea And so like this is not the the idea that there's like whatever rhetorical that there's like whatever rhetorical that there's like whatever rhetorical combat or like that there's like this combat or like that there's like this combat or like that there's like this virtual environment in which there's virtual environment in which there's virtual environment in which there's lots of points of view and there's lots lots of points of view and there's lots lots of points of view and there's lots of, you know, again both lots of truth of, you know, again both lots of truth of, you know, again both lots of truth truths lots of lies. Like this is not truths lots of lies. Like this is not truths lots of lies. Like this is not new. In fact, this this this is the new. In fact, this this this is the new. In fact, this this this is the natural order of things. natural order of things. natural order of things. We just lived through a period of We just lived through a period of We just lived through a period of artificial volatility and that artificial volatility and that artificial volatility and that artificial suppression of volatility. artificial suppression of volatility. artificial suppression of volatility. Uh with media becoming over centralized. Uh with media becoming over centralized. Uh with media becoming over centralized. And and and obviously those days are And and and obviously those days are And and and obviously those days are over. over. over. I want to return back to I want to return back to I want to return back to uh we were talking about the current uh we were talking about the current uh we were talking about the current thing and how that's accelerated over thing and how that's accelerated over thing and how that's accelerated over time. We previously had a conversation a time. We previously had a conversation a time. We previously had a conversation a while ago where we talking about sort of while ago where we talking about sort of while ago where we talking about sort of the attributes of of a current thing. the attributes of of a current thing. the attributes of of a current thing. And I remember you had this one theory And I remember you had this one theory And I remember you had this one theory that it can't be something too that it can't be something too that it can't be something too believable. It has to be almost surreal. believable. It has to be almost surreal. believable. It has to be almost surreal. Uh Uh Uh yeah. Um I'm I'm curious if we just talk yeah. Um I'm I'm curious if we just talk yeah. Um I'm I'm curious if we just talk kind of what are the attributes of kind of what are the attributes of kind of what are the attributes of something that becomes sort of the the something that becomes sort of the the something that becomes sort of the the current thing or sort of the the the current thing or sort of the the the current thing or sort of the the the topic that people can't stop quote topic that people can't stop quote topic that people can't stop quote tweeting, sharing, etc. tweeting, sharing, etc. tweeting, sharing, etc. Yeah, so Yeah, so Yeah, so again, it's kind of this thing you kind again, it's kind of this thing you kind again, it's kind of this thing you kind of reverse engineer it. It's like, okay, of reverse engineer it. It's like, okay, of reverse engineer it. It's like, okay, to be a current thing it it has to if to be a current thing it it has to if to be a current thing it it has to if you know, again to to to be this thing you know, again to to to be this thing you know, again to to to be this thing of if it's on the internet, it's a viral of if it's on the internet, it's a viral of if it's on the internet, it's a viral internet meme kind of outrage cycle. Um internet meme kind of outrage cycle. Um internet meme kind of outrage cycle. Um so it it has to be something that like so it it has to be something that like so it it has to be something that like it has to be something that activates it has to be something that activates it has to be something that activates outrage. Like it has to be something outrage. Like it has to be something outrage. Like it has to be something that activates the emotional kind of that activates the emotional kind of that activates the emotional kind of valence valence valence um of you you have to get like the um of you you have to get like the um of you you have to get like the emotional reaction off of it. Right. Um emotional reaction off of it. Right. Um emotional reaction off of it. Right. Um and so you know, it's it's just like by and so you know, it's it's just like by and so you know, it's it's just like by the way, this is just like also the the way, this is just like also the the way, this is just like also the history of the press in general. history of the press in general. history of the press in general. It's just like whatever you know, I It's just like whatever you know, I It's just like whatever you know, I always say, the news is called the news, always say, the news is called the news, always say, the news is called the news, not the importance, right? Like not the importance, right? Like not the importance, right? Like you can imagine a version of the news you can imagine a version of the news you can imagine a version of the news that's called the importance. And and that's called the importance. And and that's called the importance. And and the newspaper is like here are all the the newspaper is like here are all the the newspaper is like here are all the important things that are happening important things that are happening important things that are happening today. today. today. Right? Um and you know, of course nobody Right? Um and you know, of course nobody Right? Um and you know, of course nobody would buy it cuz nobody cares, right? would buy it cuz nobody cares, right? would buy it cuz nobody cares, right? Cuz people want the news, they want the Cuz people want the news, they want the Cuz people want the news, they want the new what the new thing, right? They want new what the new thing, right? They want new what the new thing, right? They want or you know, they want they want the hot or you know, they want they want the hot or you know, they want they want the hot thing, they want the exciting thing, thing, they want the exciting thing, thing, they want the exciting thing, they want the they want the outrageous they want the they want the outrageous they want the they want the outrageous thing and and so the the internet thing and and so the the internet thing and and so the the internet version of that is right, they want they version of that is right, they want they version of that is right, they want they want the outrageous meme and so so it's want the outrageous meme and so so it's want the outrageous meme and so so it's got to be something that provokes. And got to be something that provokes. And got to be something that provokes. And you know, and there's something about you know, and there's something about you know, and there's something about this, you know, this this is other this, you know, this this is other this, you know, this this is other people made this observation but you people made this observation but you people made this observation but you know, it's like know, it's like know, it's like you know, kind of the ultimate male you know, kind of the ultimate male you know, kind of the ultimate male coded version of this is professional coded version of this is professional coded version of this is professional wrestling, right? The ultimate female wrestling, right? The ultimate female wrestling, right? The ultimate female coded version of this is like Real coded version of this is like Real coded version of this is like Real Housewives. Housewives. Housewives. Like you know, reality TV, like you Like you know, reality TV, like you Like you know, reality TV, like you know, I don't know and then The know, I don't know and then The know, I don't know and then The Apprentice is maybe somewhere in the Apprentice is maybe somewhere in the Apprentice is maybe somewhere in the middle. middle. middle. You know, it's just like reality TV, You know, it's just like reality TV, You know, it's just like reality TV, like there there has to be there has to like there there has to be there has to like there there has to be there has to be sparks. Like it has to generate a be sparks. Like it has to generate a be sparks. Like it has to generate a level of emotional intensity. level of emotional intensity. level of emotional intensity. Driven by some level of outrage and then Driven by some level of outrage and then Driven by some level of outrage and then and then I think it has to be the kind and then I think it has to be the kind and then I think it has to be the kind of thing where you can have tribes that of thing where you can have tribes that of thing where you can have tribes that form up and square off against each form up and square off against each form up and square off against each other, right? So um so you know, there's other, right? So um so you know, there's other, right? So um so you know, there's a little bit like like like West Side a little bit like like like West Side a little bit like like like West Side Story dynamic to it or something, right? Story dynamic to it or something, right? Story dynamic to it or something, right? Where it's just like, okay, you can Where it's just like, okay, you can Where it's just like, okay, you can imagine, you know, there's there's imagine, you know, there's there's imagine, you know, there's there's something that's worth arguing over. something that's worth arguing over. something that's worth arguing over. Um where where there's a you know, where Um where where there's a you know, where Um where where there's a you know, where there's a real argument to be had. Like there's a real argument to be had. Like there's a real argument to be had. Like there you know, there's there's some there you know, there's there's some there you know, there's there's some underlying thing that actually like underlying thing that actually like underlying thing that actually like really matters. Maybe maybe this event really matters. Maybe maybe this event really matters. Maybe maybe this event doesn't matter as much but like the doesn't matter as much but like the doesn't matter as much but like the actual underlying issue matters a lot. actual underlying issue matters a lot. actual underlying issue matters a lot. Um and then it's going to it's going to Um and then it's going to it's going to Um and then it's going to it's going to activate this tribal effect where you're activate this tribal effect where you're activate this tribal effect where you're going to be able to basically you're going to be able to basically you're going to be able to basically you're you're going to become part of what they you're going to become part of what they you're going to become part of what they call a moral tribe. The the people on call a moral tribe. The the people on call a moral tribe. The the people on the other side will become part of a the other side will become part of a the other side will become part of a moral tribe and then you're going to moral tribe and then you're going to moral tribe and then you're going to kind of go to war with each other. kind of go to war with each other. kind of go to war with each other. You're you're going to have a rumble, You're you're going to have a rumble, You're you're going to have a rumble, what they would have said in the old what they would have said in the old what they would have said in the old days. You're going to have a rumble. A days. You're going to have a rumble. A days. You're going to have a rumble. A rumble in the streets, except you're not rumble in the streets, except you're not rumble in the streets, except you're not going to have a rumble in the streets, going to have a rumble in the streets, going to have a rumble in the streets, you're going to have a rumble online, you're going to have a rumble online, you're going to have a rumble online, right? You're going to go at it. And so right? You're going to go at it. And so right? You're going to go at it. And so it has to lend itself to that kind of it has to lend itself to that kind of it has to lend itself to that kind of basically tribal formation um and and basically tribal formation um and and basically tribal formation um and and and and and and kind of that beating and and and and kind of that beating and and and and kind of that beating back and forth. And of course you you back and forth. And of course you you back and forth. And of course you you the tribes then attack each other, you the tribes then attack each other, you the tribes then attack each other, you know, on the issues but then they also know, on the issues but then they also know, on the issues but then they also attack each other's values um and they attack each other's values um and they attack each other's values um and they accuse each other of being horrible accuse each other of being horrible accuse each other of being horrible people. And then when it gets really people. And then when it gets really people. And then when it gets really into it, they start to dox each other into it, they start to dox each other into it, they start to dox each other and try to get each other fired. Right? and try to get each other fired. Right? and try to get each other fired. Right? And then it all becomes, you know, very And then it all becomes, you know, very And then it all becomes, you know, very exciting. exciting. exciting. Um and so so it's got to have it's got Um and so so it's got to have it's got Um and so so it's got to have it's got to have the it's basically it has to to have the it's basically it has to to have the it's basically it has to have the formation of a of a of a moral have the formation of a of a of a moral have the formation of a of a of a moral tribe effect. It it's a the the tribe effect. It it's a the the tribe effect. It it's a the the psychological lens on this they call psychological lens on this they call psychological lens on this they call moral tribes and then there's this moral tribes and then there's this moral tribes and then there's this concept right of moral panic. Uh, it's concept right of moral panic. Uh, it's concept right of moral panic. Uh, it's got to lead to a moral panic. It's got got to lead to a moral panic. It's got got to lead to a moral panic. It's got to lead to this kind of thing of like to lead to this kind of thing of like to lead to this kind of thing of like this is indicative of how society is this is indicative of how society is this is indicative of how society is going to [ __ ] right? In in in like some going to [ __ ] right? In in in like some going to [ __ ] right? In in in like some important way. important way. important way. Um, and by the way, this is why you can Um, and by the way, this is why you can Um, and by the way, this is why you can have like many many many many different have like many many many many different have like many many many many different examples occurring things that end up examples occurring things that end up examples occurring things that end up revolving back around the same handful revolving back around the same handful revolving back around the same handful of like underlying political or moral of like underlying political or moral of like underlying political or moral questions, right? Cuz cuz it's really questions, right? Cuz cuz it's really questions, right? Cuz cuz it's really right. It's really not about the, you right. It's really not about the, you right. It's really not about the, you know, what happened, you know, I don't know, what happened, you know, I don't know, what happened, you know, I don't Jussie Smollett. Jussie Smollett. Jussie Smollett. I I just want to say there's this new uh I I just want to say there's this new uh I I just want to say there's this new uh there's this new um there's this new um there's this new um there's this new uh Keanu Reeves movie there's this new uh Keanu Reeves movie there's this new uh Keanu Reeves movie on on Apple TV um where uh Keanu Reeves on on Apple TV um where uh Keanu Reeves on on Apple TV um where uh Keanu Reeves plays a movie star who gets canceled. plays a movie star who gets canceled. plays a movie star who gets canceled. Um, and his crisis lawyer played by Um, and his crisis lawyer played by Um, and his crisis lawyer played by Jonah Hill. Uh it turns out during the Jonah Hill. Uh it turns out during the Jonah Hill. Uh it turns out during the course of the show, I'll I'll just spoil course of the show, I'll I'll just spoil course of the show, I'll I'll just spoil it in course of the movie, it turns out it in course of the movie, it turns out it in course of the movie, it turns out his his crisis lawyer his his crisis lawyer his his crisis lawyer uh set up the uh the the Jussie Smollett uh set up the uh the the Jussie Smollett uh set up the uh the the Jussie Smollett uh was was was off it was it was a uh was was was off it was it was a uh was was was off it was it was a produced op. Um, produced op. Um, produced op. Um, So so so in the movie world the lawyer So so so in the movie world the lawyer So so so in the movie world the lawyer came up with the idea um that there came up with the idea um that there came up with the idea um that there would be a black celebrity who would get would be a black celebrity who would get would be a black celebrity who would get attacked in the street by white racists attacked in the street by white racists attacked in the street by white racists and that would be like a viral social and that would be like a viral social and that would be like a viral social media outrage thing and then and then media outrage thing and then and then media outrage thing and then and then literally the lawyer says, "Well, then literally the lawyer says, "Well, then literally the lawyer says, "Well, then we of course we went on cast and Jussie we of course we went on cast and Jussie we of course we went on cast and Jussie Smollett had the best pitch for why he Smollett had the best pitch for why he Smollett had the best pitch for why he should be he should be the black guy." should be he should be the black guy." should be he should be the black guy." Um, and then um and then um there was Um, and then um and then um there was Um, and then um and then um there was one of his underlings he he's still mad one of his underlings he he's still mad one of his underlings he he's still mad at because the at because the at because the uh the um the underling was was tasked uh the um the underling was was tasked uh the um the underling was was tasked with the assignment of going out and with the assignment of going out and with the assignment of going out and hiring, you know, the attackers. Um, but hiring, you know, the attackers. Um, but hiring, you know, the attackers. Um, but you know, this is in the heady of you know, this is in the heady of you know, this is in the heady of diversity and so he hired two black guys diversity and so he hired two black guys diversity and so he hired two black guys to be the attackers. to be the attackers. to be the attackers. Right? And he's like all confused cuz Right? And he's like all confused cuz Right? And he's like all confused cuz he's like, "Am I supposed to hire black he's like, "Am I supposed to hire black he's like, "Am I supposed to hire black people not hire black people?" And it's people not hire black people?" And it's people not hire black people?" And it's like, "Well, not in this specific case like, "Well, not in this specific case like, "Well, not in this specific case you weren't supposed to hire black you weren't supposed to hire black you weren't supposed to hire black people people people to attack Jussie Smollett." Anyway, so to attack Jussie Smollett." Anyway, so to attack Jussie Smollett." Anyway, so the Jussie Smollett the Jussie Smollett the Jussie Smollett is fresh in my mind. Um, but it was a is fresh in my mind. Um, but it was a is fresh in my mind. Um, but it was a great example which is like what great example which is like what great example which is like what happened on the street in Chicago that happened on the street in Chicago that happened on the street in Chicago that night during the whatever whatever night during the whatever whatever night during the whatever whatever blizzard cyclone thing it was like blizzard cyclone thing it was like blizzard cyclone thing it was like kind of matters, kind of doesn't matter. kind of matters, kind of doesn't matter. kind of matters, kind of doesn't matter. Whoever really knows, who knows Whoever really knows, who knows Whoever really knows, who knows whatever. We've got weird grainy video, whatever. We've got weird grainy video, whatever. We've got weird grainy video, whatever. People say different things. I whatever. People say different things. I whatever. People say different things. I mean, I think we now know what happened, mean, I think we now know what happened, mean, I think we now know what happened, but like in these events, like what but like in these events, like what but like in these events, like what actually happened in the street? Who the actually happened in the street? Who the actually happened in the street? Who the hell knows? But hell knows? But hell knows? But the fight, you see what I'm saying? Like the fight, you see what I'm saying? Like the fight, you see what I'm saying? Like the moral tribes that were able to form the moral tribes that were able to form the moral tribes that were able to form up on, you know, one side or people are up on, you know, one side or people are up on, you know, one side or people are like, of course this is what, you know, like, of course this is what, you know, like, of course this is what, you know, this is what happens to people all the this is what happens to people all the this is what happens to people all the time. And the people on the other side time. And the people on the other side time. And the people on the other side of it were like, of course this is all of it were like, of course this is all of it were like, of course this is all fake and [ __ ] Right? You had this fake and [ __ ] Right? You had this fake and [ __ ] Right? You had this You had this chance for these moral You had this chance for these moral You had this chance for these moral tribes to to to pair up and fight. Um tribes to to to pair up and fight. Um tribes to to to pair up and fight. Um and so so I think I think it basically and so so I think I think it basically and so so I think I think it basically had I think it basically it it it had I think it basically it it it had I think it basically it it it basically has to have that. basically has to have that. basically has to have that. Yeah, and sometimes it's very serious uh Yeah, and sometimes it's very serious uh Yeah, and sometimes it's very serious uh and and the stakes are very high and and and the stakes are very high and and and the stakes are very high and sometimes it's uh just an episode that's sometimes it's uh just an episode that's sometimes it's uh just an episode that's so so so you know, you know, you know, funny and the astronomer uh CEO HR as a funny and the astronomer uh CEO HR as a funny and the astronomer uh CEO HR as a as an example. Uh Okay, so well this as an example. Uh Okay, so well this as an example. Uh Okay, so well this Okay, this is a very important point. So Okay, this is a very important point. So Okay, this is a very important point. So very important point. So I would say two very important point. So I would say two very important point. So I would say two things. So one is things. So one is things. So one is um the truth or falsity um the truth or falsity um the truth or falsity of the actual event doesn't seem to of the actual event doesn't seem to of the actual event doesn't seem to matter at all. And and I think this is I think this And and I think this is I think this actually throws people cuz you start to actually throws people cuz you start to actually throws people cuz you start to think these are all fake and they're not think these are all fake and they're not think these are all fake and they're not all fake. Like actual actually bad all fake. Like actual actually bad all fake. Like actual actually bad things happen. things happen. things happen. Right? Actually bad things happen and Right? Actually bad things happen and Right? Actually bad things happen and it's actually like fully legitimate to it's actually like fully legitimate to it's actually like fully legitimate to get outraged about these things. But get outraged about these things. But get outraged about these things. But also people are going to get outraged also people are going to get outraged also people are going to get outraged about a lot of things that actually about a lot of things that actually about a lot of things that actually didn't happen. Um and so so so for the didn't happen. Um and so so so for the didn't happen. Um and so so so for the purpose of the discussion of of the purpose of the discussion of of the purpose of the discussion of of the media again, this is the Marshall media again, this is the Marshall media again, this is the Marshall McLuhan thing. If it's on the internet, McLuhan thing. If it's on the internet, McLuhan thing. If it's on the internet, it's a viral social media outrage cycle. it's a viral social media outrage cycle. it's a viral social media outrage cycle. Like whatever are the facts of the Like whatever are the facts of the Like whatever are the facts of the thing, it doesn't really matter. In thing, it doesn't really matter. In thing, it doesn't really matter. In fact, it's probably best to your point. fact, it's probably best to your point. fact, it's probably best to your point. It's probably best if it's actually hard It's probably best if it's actually hard It's probably best if it's actually hard to tell what actually happened. to tell what actually happened. to tell what actually happened. Cuz that makes it something that you can Cuz that makes it something that you can Cuz that makes it something that you can more easily argue about. And so that's more easily argue about. And so that's more easily argue about. And so that's one thing. And then to the point that one thing. And then to the point that one thing. And then to the point that you just made, I really agree with that you just made, I really agree with that you just made, I really agree with that also, which is um the the degree of also, which is um the the degree of also, which is um the the degree of importance of the actual issue doesn't importance of the actual issue doesn't importance of the actual issue doesn't matter that much. Right? And so if it if matter that much. Right? And so if it if matter that much. Right? And so if it if so if something happens to a single so if something happens to a single so if something happens to a single person, you can and then something person, you can and then something person, you can and then something happens to 10,000 people, you can have happens to 10,000 people, you can have happens to 10,000 people, you can have the same level of outrage in in each the same level of outrage in in each the same level of outrage in in each case. case. case. Like the the outrage doesn't scale with Like the the outrage doesn't scale with Like the the outrage doesn't scale with the number of people affected. the number of people affected. the number of people affected. Right? In a lot of In a lot of ways, Right? In a lot of In a lot of ways, Right? In a lot of In a lot of ways, maybe the outrage is even higher when maybe the outrage is even higher when maybe the outrage is even higher when it's a specific person cuz it's because it's a specific person cuz it's because it's a specific person cuz it's because then it becomes personalized. Yeah. And then it becomes personalized. Yeah. And then it becomes personalized. Yeah. And then and then you get in the old uh what then and then you get in the old uh what then and then you get in the old uh what is it? The old Stalin thing, which is a is it? The old Stalin thing, which is a is it? The old Stalin thing, which is a single death of a tragedy, a million single death of a tragedy, a million single death of a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic. Like may maybe deaths is a statistic. Like may maybe deaths is a statistic. Like may maybe it's even the small scale horrible it's even the small scale horrible it's even the small scale horrible things that happen that are the most things that happen that are the most things that happen that are the most emotionally intense cuz they're the emotionally intense cuz they're the emotionally intense cuz they're the things that you really you know you're things that you really you know you're things that you really you know you're going to you're going to react to a going to you're going to react to a going to you're going to react to a person. You know kind of kind of the person. You know kind of kind of the person. You know kind of kind of the most intensely. And so so and I think most intensely. And so so and I think most intensely. And so so and I think that's the thing if you're if you're that's the thing if you're if you're that's the thing if you're if you're doing the meta observation of this it's doing the meta observation of this it's doing the meta observation of this it's like okay you're just going to you like okay you're just going to you like okay you're just going to you basically you just have to expect the basically you just have to expect the basically you just have to expect the same phenomenon this outrage cycle to same phenomenon this outrage cycle to same phenomenon this outrage cycle to play out every time regardless of truth play out every time regardless of truth play out every time regardless of truth or falsehood and regardless of the or falsehood and regardless of the or falsehood and regardless of the actual magnitude of the underlying issue actual magnitude of the underlying issue actual magnitude of the underlying issue because because because because again what's being argued about because again what's being argued about because again what's being argued about is the specifics about what actually is the specifics about what actually is the specifics about what actually happened. That's not the point. The happened. That's not the point. The happened. That's not the point. The point is the ability to form up into point is the ability to form up into point is the ability to form up into moral tribes and then and then yeah and moral tribes and then and then yeah and moral tribes and then and then yeah and then have the rumble. Yeah. Oh then have the rumble. Yeah. Oh then have the rumble. Yeah. Oh there's a there's a there's a George Orwell um George Orwell um George Orwell um actually has a has a great thing on this actually has a has a great thing on this actually has a has a great thing on this cuz George Orwell famously covered the cuz George Orwell famously covered the cuz George Orwell famously covered the Spanish Civil War which which was as I Spanish Civil War which which was as I Spanish Civil War which which was as I said it's kind of the it's kind of the said it's kind of the it's kind of the said it's kind of the it's kind of the original where a lot of this stuff sort original where a lot of this stuff sort original where a lot of this stuff sort of played out for the first time in the of played out for the first time in the of played out for the first time in the 20th century and he he he did he did 20th century and he he he did he did 20th century and he he he did he did this thing one time where he talks about this thing one time where he talks about this thing one time where he talks about his version of this. He talks about the his version of this. He talks about the his version of this. He talks about the role of the atrocity. role of the atrocity. role of the atrocity. Um and he said basically the the key Um and he said basically the the key Um and he said basically the the key point of propaganda in any war um so you point of propaganda in any war um so you point of propaganda in any war um so you you get two countries to go to war and you get two countries to go to war and you get two countries to go to war and you know they've each got a moral claim you know they've each got a moral claim you know they've each got a moral claim of like why they're the justified you of like why they're the justified you of like why they're the justified you know it's like nobody ever attacks know it's like nobody ever attacks know it's like nobody ever attacks everybody's always defending like and I everybody's always defending like and I everybody's always defending like and I only attacked him first cuz he was going only attacked him first cuz he was going only attacked him first cuz he was going to attack me otherwise. And so every to attack me otherwise. And so every to attack me otherwise. And so every each side in a war each country has its each side in a war each country has its each side in a war each country has its own basically moral position why the why own basically moral position why the why own basically moral position why the why the war is justified. But he said he the war is justified. But he said he the war is justified. But he said he said basically Orwell said like it's said basically Orwell said like it's said basically Orwell said like it's hard to sell like high it's hard to sell hard to sell like high it's hard to sell hard to sell like high it's hard to sell like these high blown you know these like these high blown you know these like these high blown you know these high high flying kind of abstract ideas high high flying kind of abstract ideas high high flying kind of abstract ideas of like why we need to go to war. And so of like why we need to go to war. And so of like why we need to go to war. And so he said what what happens is that the he said what what happens is that the he said what what happens is that the propaganda efforts of each government in propaganda efforts of each government in propaganda efforts of each government in a war become basically looking for a war become basically looking for a war become basically looking for atrocities. Um atrocities. Um atrocities. Um and so specific point events. A famous and so specific point events. A famous and so specific point events. A famous one is the My Lai Massacre in in in one is the My Lai Massacre in in in one is the My Lai Massacre in in in Vietnam. But you you could you could we Vietnam. But you you could you could we Vietnam. But you you could you could we could name many many other examples. Um could name many many other examples. Um could name many many other examples. Um and so you're looking for these very and so you're looking for these very and so you're looking for these very specific events where something very specific events where something very specific events where something very specific and concrete happened that's specific and concrete happened that's specific and concrete happened that's clearly over the moral clearly over the moral clearly over the moral beyond beyond the realm of beyond beyond the realm of beyond beyond the realm of of moral acceptability. Right? Just of moral acceptability. Right? Just of moral acceptability. Right? Just clearly like you know clearly like you know clearly like you know usually involving innocent people usually involving innocent people usually involving innocent people getting killed. getting killed. getting killed. And in the Spanish Civil War it was like And in the Spanish Civil War it was like And in the Spanish Civil War it was like you know nuns getting killed or you know nuns getting killed or you know nuns getting killed or something like that, right? something like that, right? something like that, right? Um and and and again, it's the the the Um and and and again, it's the the the Um and and and again, it's the the the the point of the atrocity The point of the point of the atrocity The point of the point of the atrocity The point of the atrocity is not that it affected the atrocity is not that it affected the atrocity is not that it affected 100,000 people. The point of the 100,000 people. The point of the 100,000 people. The point of the atrocity is in fact, maybe the best atrocity is in fact, maybe the best atrocity is in fact, maybe the best atrocity only affects a small number of atrocity only affects a small number of atrocity only affects a small number of people cuz you want to personalize it. people cuz you want to personalize it. people cuz you want to personalize it. Um and then he said he he he says this. Um and then he said he he he says this. Um and then he said he he he says this. He says, "The truth or falsity of the He says, "The truth or falsity of the He says, "The truth or falsity of the atrocity doesn't matter at all." atrocity doesn't matter at all." atrocity doesn't matter at all." Like it it it the atrocity If the Like it it it the atrocity If the Like it it it the atrocity If the atrocity is made up, it it it it the the atrocity is made up, it it it it the the atrocity is made up, it it it it the the the political value of the atrocity is the political value of the atrocity is the political value of the atrocity is just as high. just as high. just as high. Right? And so it it doesn't matter. Like Right? And so it it doesn't matter. Like Right? And so it it doesn't matter. Like once the atrocity cycle gets running, um once the atrocity cycle gets running, um once the atrocity cycle gets running, um it doesn't matter whether the underlying it doesn't matter whether the underlying it doesn't matter whether the underlying thing is true or false because the thing is true or false because the thing is true or false because the because the point of it is to have the because the point of it is to have the because the point of it is to have the have the atrocity be a propaganda win uh have the atrocity be a propaganda win uh have the atrocity be a propaganda win uh for for moral for moral for moral for for moral for moral for moral for for moral for moral for moral justification and then and then for justification and then and then for justification and then and then for moral demonization of the other side. moral demonization of the other side. moral demonization of the other side. And by the way, lest lest people think And by the way, lest lest people think And by the way, lest lest people think that I'm being cynical when I go through that I'm being cynical when I go through that I'm being cynical when I go through all this, I'm not saying I think this is all this, I'm not saying I think this is all this, I'm not saying I think this is all good. Like I I'm not saying I think all good. Like I I'm not saying I think all good. Like I I'm not saying I think this this world is great. I'm not saying this this world is great. I'm not saying this this world is great. I'm not saying that this I think that this is all that this I think that this is all that this I think that this is all positive. Um I I'm saying something positive. Um I I'm saying something positive. Um I I'm saying something different, which is I think it's very different, which is I think it's very different, which is I think it's very important to understand how this important to understand how this important to understand how this actually works. Because when you find actually works. Because when you find actually works. Because when you find yourself in the middle of one of these yourself in the middle of one of these yourself in the middle of one of these things, I think it's very useful to have things, I think it's very useful to have things, I think it's very useful to have at least a slice of your brain that's at least a slice of your brain that's at least a slice of your brain that's basically saying, "All right, I need to basically saying, "All right, I need to basically saying, "All right, I need to be aware of the fact that I'm getting be aware of the fact that I'm getting be aware of the fact that I'm getting pulled into something, right? That I'm pulled into something, right? That I'm pulled into something, right? That I'm being triggered by emotion and I'm being being triggered by emotion and I'm being being triggered by emotion and I'm being triggered and I'm being slotted into a a triggered and I'm being slotted into a a triggered and I'm being slotted into a a moral tribe and I'm and I'm mounting up moral tribe and I'm and I'm mounting up moral tribe and I'm and I'm mounting up to go to war with the hated enemy and to go to war with the hated enemy and to go to war with the hated enemy and it's on the basis of something that very it's on the basis of something that very it's on the basis of something that very well might not be true." Yeah. well might not be true." Yeah. well might not be true." Yeah. Right? And I and I and this, you know, Right? And I and I and this, you know, Right? And I and I and this, you know, this is a the Rene Girard thing, which this is a the Rene Girard thing, which this is a the Rene Girard thing, which he says this the scapegoating cycle he says this the scapegoating cycle he says this the scapegoating cycle always works because people always always works because people always always works because people always forget that there's a scapegoating forget that there's a scapegoating forget that there's a scapegoating cycle. Like Like cycle. Like Like cycle. Like Like whenever you have to like crucify the whenever you have to like crucify the whenever you have to like crucify the scapegoat, it's always the most morally scapegoat, it's always the most morally scapegoat, it's always the most morally important thing that's ever happened. important thing that's ever happened. important thing that's ever happened. For the duration of that cycle, right? For the duration of that cycle, right? For the duration of that cycle, right? And until it's forgotten by the next And until it's forgotten by the next And until it's forgotten by the next one. Yeah. And so And so a big part of one. Yeah. And so And so a big part of one. Yeah. And so And so a big part of what I'm trying to do is explain why what I'm trying to do is explain why what I'm trying to do is explain why like as as as we surf all of these like as as as we surf all of these like as as as we surf all of these current things, that we like at least current things, that we like at least current things, that we like at least keep part of our brain that basically keep part of our brain that basically keep part of our brain that basically says, "Look, th- this is the state of says, "Look, th- this is the state of says, "Look, th- this is the state of the world we live in. This is the state the world we live in. This is the state the world we live in. This is the state of humanity. This is the state of the of humanity. This is the state of the of humanity. This is the state of the media. Like this is what's happening. We media. Like this is what's happening. We media. Like this is what's happening. We can like it or hate it or we can debate can like it or hate it or we can debate can like it or hate it or we can debate the pros and cons, but it is what's the pros and cons, but it is what's the pros and cons, but it is what's happening, and all objective events are happening, and all objective events are happening, and all objective events are going to be filtered through that. And going to be filtered through that. And going to be filtered through that. And to the extent that you care about to the extent that you care about to the extent that you care about objective truth, you have to get through objective truth, you have to get through objective truth, you have to get through that, and you have to get to the other that, and you have to get to the other that, and you have to get to the other side to be able to actually still deal side to be able to actually still deal side to be able to actually still deal with objective reality. But But to do with objective reality. But But to do with objective reality. But But to do that, you need to understand the the that, you need to understand the the that, you need to understand the the cycle. And it's also important to cycle. And it's also important to cycle. And it's also important to understand cuz if if people are ever understand cuz if if people are ever understand cuz if if people are ever involved in the cycle or implicated in involved in the cycle or implicated in involved in the cycle or implicated in it, they typically say, "Oh, but I'm it, they typically say, "Oh, but I'm it, they typically say, "Oh, but I'm innocent. Once everyone finds out the innocent. Once everyone finds out the innocent. Once everyone finds out the truth, they're they're going to truth, they're they're going to truth, they're they're going to exonerate me. They're going to clear exonerate me. They're going to clear exonerate me. They're going to clear me." And they of course don't fully me." And they of course don't fully me." And they of course don't fully appreciate that people don't give a appreciate that people don't give a appreciate that people don't give a [ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ] People are, you know, predisposed to to People are, you know, predisposed to to People are, you know, predisposed to to to hate you, and they'll just find any to hate you, and they'll just find any to hate you, and they'll just find any sort of reason, uh, you know, or or sort of reason, uh, you know, or or sort of reason, uh, you know, or or certain people, perhaps. certain people, perhaps. certain people, perhaps. Yes. Yes. Yes. If Yes. If you are Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. If Yes. If you are Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. If Yes. If you are Yes. If you are actually in a If you are If you are actually in a If you are If you are actually in a If you are actually innocent, and if you're caught actually innocent, and if you're caught actually innocent, and if you're caught up in one of these things, it's it's up in one of these things, it's it's up in one of these things, it's it's horrifying. It's horrifying. I mean, horrifying. It's horrifying. I mean, horrifying. It's horrifying. I mean, look at cancellation. I mean, this this look at cancellation. I mean, this this look at cancellation. I mean, this this happened to a lot of people over the happened to a lot of people over the happened to a lot of people over the last decade. You know, people people last decade. You know, people people last decade. You know, people people would get canceled for things they would get canceled for things they would get canceled for things they literally never did, and for, you know, literally never did, and for, you know, literally never did, and for, you know, for for for people then imputing for for for people then imputing for for for people then imputing beliefs, or, you know, some I don't beliefs, or, you know, some I don't beliefs, or, you know, some I don't know, stray comment, or misreported know, stray comment, or misreported know, stray comment, or misreported comment, and then it gets imputed that, comment, and then it gets imputed that, comment, and then it gets imputed that, you know, this person is a horrible you know, this person is a horrible you know, this person is a horrible racist, and off and away it goes, and racist, and off and away it goes, and racist, and off and away it goes, and they have to get fired and purged from they have to get fired and purged from they have to get fired and purged from society, and, you know, have no way to society, and, you know, have no way to society, and, you know, have no way to come back. Or or, you know, or whatever come back. Or or, you know, or whatever come back. Or or, you know, or whatever the issue was, right? Um, and, you know, the issue was, right? Um, and, you know, the issue was, right? Um, and, you know, we you know, there were these you know, we you know, there were these you know, we you know, there were these you know, these viral videos viral video you know, these viral videos viral video you know, these viral videos viral video you know, Oh, that's the other thing is like, Oh, that's the other thing is like, Oh, that's the other thing is like, okay, the the viral videos okay, the the viral videos okay, the the viral videos The viral videos, right? The viral The viral videos, right? The viral The viral videos, right? The viral videos have viral videos have become so videos have viral videos have become so videos have viral videos have become so much like the By the way, the first much like the By the way, the first much like the By the way, the first viral video that mattered was actually a viral video that mattered was actually a viral video that mattered was actually a Rodney King. Um Rodney King. Um Rodney King. Um And it would And it actually inaugurate And it would And it actually inaugurate And it would And it actually inaugurate And I'm not going to I'm not going to And I'm not going to I'm not going to And I'm not going to I'm not going to litigate the Rodney King good or bad or litigate the Rodney King good or bad or litigate the Rodney King good or bad or whatever. It's a the whole separate whatever. It's a the whole separate whatever. It's a the whole separate conversation, but conversation, but conversation, but um um um the Rodney King video starts with the the Rodney King video starts with the the Rodney King video starts with the beating. beating. beating. Um so, it doesn't show everything that Um so, it doesn't show everything that Um so, it doesn't show everything that led up to that. And And And that set the led up to that. And And And that set the led up to that. And And And that set the pattern. And again, I'm not I'm not pattern. And again, I'm not I'm not pattern. And again, I'm not I'm not excusing anybody for anything or excusing anybody for anything or excusing anybody for anything or whatever. I'm just saying like the video whatever. I'm just saying like the video whatever. I'm just saying like the video started midway through the event. Um All started midway through the event. Um All started midway through the event. Um All of the really effective viral videos of the really effective viral videos of the really effective viral videos basically since then, including the ones basically since then, including the ones basically since then, including the ones that have been really important over the that have been really important over the that have been really important over the course of the last decade, they've all course of the last decade, they've all course of the last decade, they've all had that characteristic. They all start had that characteristic. They all start had that characteristic. They all start halfway through the event. halfway through the event. halfway through the event. Um so, you you don't see the run-up. Um Um so, you you don't see the run-up. Um Um so, you you don't see the run-up. Um and so, you don't you know, the Central and so, you don't you know, the Central and so, you don't you know, the Central Park birdwatcher was the famous like you Park birdwatcher was the famous like you Park birdwatcher was the famous like you don't see the run-up of what happened don't see the run-up of what happened don't see the run-up of what happened before the before before the video before the before before the video before the before before the video started. started. started. Um what was the other one? Who was the Um what was the other one? Who was the Um what was the other one? Who was the other person who got like brutally other person who got like brutally other person who got like brutally canceled based on a video? I can't canceled based on a video? I can't canceled based on a video? I can't remember. I mean, there've been a whole remember. I mean, there've been a whole remember. I mean, there've been a whole bunch of them. But, um this is the bunch of them. But, um this is the bunch of them. But, um this is the thing. Right. And so, you you you get a thing. Right. And so, you you you get a thing. Right. And so, you you you get a viral video and it kicks off halfway viral video and it kicks off halfway viral video and it kicks off halfway into the event. Why does it kick By the into the event. Why does it kick By the into the event. Why does it kick By the way, why does it kick off halfway into way, why does it kick off halfway into way, why does it kick off halfway into the event? That's because that's when the event? That's because that's when the event? That's because that's when the event became interesting enough to the event became interesting enough to the event became interesting enough to be able to put on a video. be able to put on a video. be able to put on a video. Like that's what People don't just like Like that's what People don't just like Like that's what People don't just like walk around with their phones out. walk around with their phones out. walk around with their phones out. That's when they pull the phone out. That's when they pull the phone out. That's when they pull the phone out. But, by that point, you've lost all the But, by that point, you've lost all the But, by that point, you've lost all the context. Right? And so, so then again, context. Right? And so, so then again, context. Right? And so, so then again, this is one of those things where, okay, this is one of those things where, okay, this is one of those things where, okay, you're watching a viral video, you can you're watching a viral video, you can you're watching a viral video, you can feel yourself getting outraged. The key feel yourself getting outraged. The key feel yourself getting outraged. The key question ought to be, all right, what question ought to be, all right, what question ought to be, all right, what happened before that? happened before that? happened before that? Right? And you And that takes work, Right? And you And that takes work, Right? And you And that takes work, right? Like cuz it's not it's not right right? Like cuz it's not it's not right right? Like cuz it's not it's not right there on the screen. And you have to there on the screen. And you have to there on the screen. And you have to like really try hard to like go back and like really try hard to like go back and like really try hard to like go back and like figure out eyewitness reports. And like figure out eyewitness reports. And like figure out eyewitness reports. And by the way, like if it's a criminal by the way, like if it's a criminal by the way, like if it's a criminal thing, half the time you don't find out thing, half the time you don't find out thing, half the time you don't find out what happened until the actual trial what happened until the actual trial what happened until the actual trial happens. So, you don't find out for like happens. So, you don't find out for like happens. So, you don't find out for like another year. Because they don't put the another year. Because they don't put the another year. Because they don't put the evidence out until the trial. Um and so, evidence out until the trial. Um and so, evidence out until the trial. Um and so, that that's another thing where people that that's another thing where people that that's another thing where people get got basically people get used get got basically people get used get got basically people get used basically people get ginned up into basically people get ginned up into basically people get ginned up into these outrage cycles without actually these outrage cycles without actually these outrage cycles without actually having the context of what happened. having the context of what happened. having the context of what happened. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The The The I want to go back to this conspiracy you I want to go back to this conspiracy you I want to go back to this conspiracy you know, we have a a friend who thinks know, we have a a friend who thinks know, we have a a friend who thinks everything is an op and maybe I'm naive everything is an op and maybe I'm naive everything is an op and maybe I'm naive and I miss out on on the ops that are and I miss out on on the ops that are and I miss out on on the ops that are actually there. But, I'm I'm curious actually there. But, I'm I'm curious actually there. But, I'm I'm curious what your mental model one might have to what your mental model one might have to what your mental model one might have to think about how much is coordinated think about how much is coordinated think about how much is coordinated versus not. I've I've I've been inspired versus not. I've I've I've been inspired versus not. I've I've I've been inspired by the idea of uh by the idea of uh by the idea of uh uh decentrali- or emergent collusion. Uh uh decentrali- or emergent collusion. Uh uh decentrali- or emergent collusion. Uh just sort of um this this idea that a just sort of um this this idea that a just sort of um this this idea that a lot of people have incentives to go in lot of people have incentives to go in lot of people have incentives to go in the same way that even if they're not the same way that even if they're not the same way that even if they're not coordinating explicitly, they almost coordinating explicitly, they almost coordinating explicitly, they almost might as well be or something that that might as well be or something that that might as well be or something that that or that it might explain or that it might explain or that it might explain why so many things seem uh coordinated. why so many things seem uh coordinated. why so many things seem uh coordinated. But, you know, ever since joining A16Z, But, you know, ever since joining A16Z, But, you know, ever since joining A16Z, so many people have impuned onto us so many people have impuned onto us so many people have impuned onto us things that we're not doing. And so, things that we're not doing. And so, things that we're not doing. And so, it's made me skeptical of uh of people it's made me skeptical of uh of people it's made me skeptical of uh of people calling for conspiracy. Um and and so, calling for conspiracy. Um and and so, calling for conspiracy. Um and and so, I'm curious what what sort of mental I'm curious what what sort of mental I'm curious what what sort of mental model you might have for for for the model you might have for for for the model you might have for for for the idea of ops and how that might help one idea of ops and how that might help one idea of ops and how that might help one understand the the the social platforms understand the the the social platforms understand the the the social platforms today. today. today. Yeah, so I think as best I can tell, and Yeah, so I think as best I can tell, and Yeah, so I think as best I can tell, and it's tricky cuz it's hard to tell. Um it's tricky cuz it's hard to tell. Um it's tricky cuz it's hard to tell. Um and there are, you know, some real and there are, you know, some real and there are, you know, some real experts in this that really really focus experts in this that really really focus experts in this that really really focus on this. But, um as far as I can tell, on this. But, um as far as I can tell, on this. But, um as far as I can tell, like there there's some there's there like there there's some there's there like there there's some there's there there's some truth on both sides. Um there's some truth on both sides. Um there's some truth on both sides. Um the the the the the the answer is um is the the the the the the answer is um is the the the the the the answer is um is the answer is messy. And it's it's messy the answer is messy. And it's it's messy the answer is messy. And it's it's messy for two reasons. So, messy number one is for two reasons. So, messy number one is for two reasons. So, messy number one is just like there are a lot of things that just like there are a lot of things that just like there are a lot of things that I think are happening that are truly I think are happening that are truly I think are happening that are truly organic. And then there are a lot of organic. And then there are a lot of organic. And then there are a lot of things that are happening that are ops. things that are happening that are ops. things that are happening that are ops. Um and I I think I think there's a Um and I I think I think there's a Um and I I think I think there's a combination. And then and then I think combination. And then and then I think combination. And then and then I think maybe you were alluding to this. And maybe you were alluding to this. And maybe you were alluding to this. And then there's this thing which is like then there's this thing which is like then there's this thing which is like something could start as an op and then something could start as an op and then something could start as an op and then become real. become real. become real. Right? Um which is kind of the point of Right? Um which is kind of the point of Right? Um which is kind of the point of the op, right? The the the the op, right? The the the the op, right? The the the Right? The If you Let's just say if you Right? The If you Let's just say if you Right? The If you Let's just say if you and I are going to be Machiavellian and and I are going to be Machiavellian and and I are going to be Machiavellian and we wanted to start a movement, right? we wanted to start a movement, right? we wanted to start a movement, right? And I And we wanted to start a moral And I And we wanted to start a moral And I And we wanted to start a moral outrage cycle cuz we had some underlying outrage cycle cuz we had some underlying outrage cycle cuz we had some underlying goal cuz we were either trying to win an goal cuz we were either trying to win an goal cuz we were either trying to win an election or trying to get a political election or trying to get a political election or trying to get a political something, you know, law passed or something, you know, law passed or something, you know, law passed or something like that. We were going to something like that. We were going to something like that. We were going to like we're maximum like Machiavellian like we're maximum like Machiavellian like we're maximum like Machiavellian deviousness and we're going to like have deviousness and we're going to like have deviousness and we're going to like have a black budget, you know, and we're a black budget, you know, and we're a black budget, you know, and we're going to pay influencers to you know, da going to pay influencers to you know, da going to pay influencers to you know, da da da all this stuff that people say, da da all this stuff that people say, da da all this stuff that people say, you know, bot we're going to have our you know, bot we're going to have our you know, bot we're going to have our bot army and so forth. Like the point of bot army and so forth. Like the point of bot army and so forth. Like the point of it is not to just like have a bunch of it is not to just like have a bunch of it is not to just like have a bunch of propaganda online with a with a bot army propaganda online with a with a bot army propaganda online with a with a bot army behind it. The point is to get people to behind it. The point is to get people to behind it. The point is to get people to actually believe it. actually believe it. actually believe it. Right? Like that is the goal. Right? Like that is the goal. Right? Like that is the goal. Right? And so and and and and then you Right? And so and and and and then you Right? And so and and and and then you know, you don't want to have to pay for know, you don't want to have to pay for know, you don't want to have to pay for like every post, right? At some point like every post, right? At some point like every post, right? At some point you want them to be happening you want them to be happening you want them to be happening organically even just out of out of organically even just out of out of organically even just out of out of self-economic interest. And so you you self-economic interest. And so you you self-economic interest. And so you you actually you're actually trying to actually you're actually trying to actually you're actually trying to generate uh you're actually trying to generate uh you're actually trying to generate uh you're actually trying to generate uh the thing. Actually, there's generate uh the thing. Actually, there's generate uh the thing. Actually, there's there's a great paper on this. Um there's a great paper on this. Um there's a great paper on this. Um There's a guy Timur Kuran and and uh There's a guy Timur Kuran and and uh There's a guy Timur Kuran and and uh who's the famous sort of a guy who talks who's the famous sort of a guy who talks who's the famous sort of a guy who talks about preference falsification. And then about preference falsification. And then about preference falsification. And then Cass Sunstein um wrote this thing years Cass Sunstein um wrote this thing years Cass Sunstein um wrote this thing years ago or they they talk about this ago or they they talk about this ago or they they talk about this phenomenon relevant here. They call it phenomenon relevant here. They call it phenomenon relevant here. They call it availability cascades. So, their term availability cascades. So, their term availability cascades. So, their term for this kind of thing that we've been for this kind of thing that we've been for this kind of thing that we've been talking about, which is like a viral talking about, which is like a viral talking about, which is like a viral outrage cycle, uh their term for it they outrage cycle, uh their term for it they outrage cycle, uh their term for it they call availability cascade. And what they call availability cascade. And what they call availability cascade. And what they mean by availability cascade is sort of mean by availability cascade is sort of mean by availability cascade is sort of cascade means basically the process it's cascade means basically the process it's cascade means basically the process it's the sociological term for sort of an an the sociological term for sort of an an the sociological term for sort of an an idea or concept kind of cascading idea or concept kind of cascading idea or concept kind of cascading through a society kind of building a through a society kind of building a through a society kind of building a momentum as it goes. And then momentum as it goes. And then momentum as it goes. And then availability they they they they call availability they they they they call availability they they they they call based on the idea of availability bias, based on the idea of availability bias, based on the idea of availability bias, which basically is we we to overfocus on which basically is we we to overfocus on which basically is we we to overfocus on the thing that's right in front of us. the thing that's right in front of us. the thing that's right in front of us. Um and so we we tend to over focus on Um and so we we tend to over focus on Um and so we we tend to over focus on the thing that's basically present in the thing that's basically present in the thing that's basically present in our mind at that time, which may or may our mind at that time, which may or may our mind at that time, which may or may or may not be as important as other or may not be as important as other or may not be as important as other things that we're not focused on. But things that we're not focused on. But things that we're not focused on. But But in the paper the significance of it But in the paper the significance of it But in the paper the significance of it is in the paper they identify the role is in the paper they identify the role is in the paper they identify the role of a specific kind of person they call of a specific kind of person they call of a specific kind of person they call availability entrepreneur. availability entrepreneur. availability entrepreneur. Um and the the role of the availability Um and the the role of the availability Um and the the role of the availability entrepreneur is to try to inject into entrepreneur is to try to inject into entrepreneur is to try to inject into the public consciousness availability the public consciousness availability the public consciousness availability bias as a deliberate exercise to bias as a deliberate exercise to bias as a deliberate exercise to basically say, "This is the specific basically say, "This is the specific basically say, "This is the specific thing that you should be focused on thing that you should be focused on thing that you should be focused on right now." right now." right now." Like this is the specific person who's Like this is the specific person who's Like this is the specific person who's been hurt by something. This is the been hurt by something. This is the been hurt by something. This is the specific whatever, you know, moral event specific whatever, you know, moral event specific whatever, you know, moral event that's happened. This is the specific that's happened. This is the specific that's happened. This is the specific issue. This is the specific thing. And issue. This is the specific thing. And issue. This is the specific thing. And And basically what they say is like And basically what they say is like And basically what they say is like every time you see an availability every time you see an availability every time you see an availability cascade, if you trace it back there was cascade, if you trace it back there was cascade, if you trace it back there was always what they call the availability always what they call the availability always what they call the availability entrepreneur, which is basically the entrepreneur, which is basically the entrepreneur, which is basically the person who was like, "Aha, I am going to person who was like, "Aha, I am going to person who was like, "Aha, I am going to put I know I'll give you the classic put I know I'll give you the classic put I know I'll give you the classic example. And And again, this is not a example. And And again, this is not a example. And And again, this is not a value judgment and you know, this this value judgment and you know, this this value judgment and you know, this this was like you know, fantastically good was like you know, fantastically good was like you know, fantastically good that this happened. But Rosa Parks was a that this happened. But Rosa Parks was a that this happened. But Rosa Parks was a classic example of this. Like Rosa Like classic example of this. Like Rosa Like classic example of this. Like Rosa Like the story that we all got told at school the story that we all got told at school the story that we all got told at school was Rosa Parks was just like another you was Rosa Parks was just like another you was Rosa Parks was just like another you know, some sort of random person and you know, some sort of random person and you know, some sort of random person and you know, with with the thing on the bus. Um know, with with the thing on the bus. Um know, with with the thing on the bus. Um Rosa Parks was like an actual She was a Rosa Parks was like an actual She was a Rosa Parks was like an actual She was a trained activist. Like that she she went trained activist. Like that she she went trained activist. Like that she she went to like the There was this whole like to like the There was this whole like to like the There was this whole like school of activists and they like she school of activists and they like she school of activists and they like she was like a specifically trained It was was like a specifically trained It was was like a specifically trained It was an It was There was an availability an It was There was an availability an It was There was an availability entrepreneur uh uh who set up an entrepreneur uh uh who set up an entrepreneur uh uh who set up an availability cascade targeted on Rosa availability cascade targeted on Rosa availability cascade targeted on Rosa Parks that ended up causing fundamental Parks that ended up causing fundamental Parks that ended up causing fundamental and obviously very very positive changes and obviously very very positive changes and obviously very very positive changes to American society. But like to American society. But like to American society. But like it started as an op. Like she started as it started as an op. Like she started as it started as an op. Like she started as a She started as an op. But the point of a She started as an op. But the point of a She started as an op. But the point of the op was not to be the op. The The the op was not to be the op. The The the op was not to be the op. The The point of it was to be what happened, point of it was to be what happened, point of it was to be what happened, which is to become a nationwide movement which is to become a nationwide movement which is to become a nationwide movement that that ultimately led to led to that that ultimately led to led to that that ultimately led to led to fundamental change. And so And so fundamental change. And so And so fundamental change. And so And so anyway, the point is like just because anyway, the point is like just because anyway, the point is like just because things start as ops doesn't mean they're things start as ops doesn't mean they're things start as ops doesn't mean they're not real. not real. not real. Right? And And And And And And And if Right? And And And And And And And if Right? And And And And And And And if the And if the op leads to real the And if the op leads to real the And if the op leads to real outcomes, then you might as well outcomes, then you might as well outcomes, then you might as well consider you know, it's like a At some consider you know, it's like a At some consider you know, it's like a At some point it's just a matter for historians point it's just a matter for historians point it's just a matter for historians of how it started. Like it's a footnote of how it started. Like it's a footnote of how it started. Like it's a footnote to the Rosa Parks story today that she to the Rosa Parks story today that she to the Rosa Parks story today that she was a trained activist. It doesn't was a trained activist. It doesn't was a trained activist. It doesn't really matter really matter really matter because she because that op unlocked a because she because that op unlocked a because she because that op unlocked a broad-based actual movement in American broad-based actual movement in American broad-based actual movement in American society that led to actually profound society that led to actually profound society that led to actually profound change. Um and so change. Um and so change. Um and so this is the problem with this topic, this is the problem with this topic, this is the problem with this topic, which is oh, that's just an op. Is which is oh, that's just an op. Is which is oh, that's just an op. Is basically like cope. Like, okay, right? basically like cope. Like, okay, right? basically like cope. Like, okay, right? It might have started as an op. It might have started as an op. It might have started as an op. But if it ends up in a real thing, it But if it ends up in a real thing, it But if it ends up in a real thing, it doesn't You see what I'm saying? It doesn't You see what I'm saying? It doesn't You see what I'm saying? It doesn't matter that it started as an op. doesn't matter that it started as an op. doesn't matter that it started as an op. Right. Uh and then by the way, Right. Uh and then by the way, Right. Uh and then by the way, conversely, it also doesn't matter if it conversely, it also doesn't matter if it conversely, it also doesn't matter if it didn't start as an didn't start as an didn't start as an Because again, it's Because again, it's Because again, it's it's the same outcome. And so So, I do it's the same outcome. And so So, I do it's the same outcome. And so So, I do think I think I think both things are think I think I think both things are think I think I think both things are true. I do think there's this furious true. I do think there's this furious true. I do think there's this furious fight. I do think there are serious fight. I do think there are serious fight. I do think there are serious operators. And you know, operators. And you know, operators. And you know, you can go online and you can find out you can go online and you can find out you can go online and you can find out about these things. about these things. about these things. This is a big issue, by the way, in This is a big issue, by the way, in This is a big issue, by the way, in political influencer world right now. political influencer world right now. political influencer world right now. This is This is actually a big thing. This is This is actually a big thing. This is This is actually a big thing. So, um So, um So, um if I if I if I want to run an advertising campaign to want to run an advertising campaign to want to run an advertising campaign to sell shampoo, sell shampoo, sell shampoo, um legally in the US, if I hire um legally in the US, if I hire um legally in the US, if I hire influencers to say good things about the influencers to say good things about the influencers to say good things about the shampoo, they I I believe this to be shampoo, they I I believe this to be shampoo, they I I believe this to be true, they have to disclose that it's a true, they have to disclose that it's a true, they have to disclose that it's a paid commercial. paid commercial. paid commercial. They can't just like pretend that they They can't just like pretend that they They can't just like pretend that they just happen to stumble on this shampoo. just happen to stumble on this shampoo. just happen to stumble on this shampoo. Um if I donate money Um if I donate money Um if I donate money to a political candidate, to a political candidate, to a political candidate, I have to disclose that as part of I have to disclose that as part of I have to disclose that as part of election federal election law. election federal election law. election federal election law. Um if I pay an influencer to take a Um if I pay an influencer to take a Um if I pay an influencer to take a position on a moral topic that is not a position on a moral topic that is not a position on a moral topic that is not a product that is sold or a political product that is sold or a political product that is sold or a political candidate, candidate, candidate, but it's just like a position on a moral but it's just like a position on a moral but it's just like a position on a moral or political thing, that doesn't qualify or political thing, that doesn't qualify or political thing, that doesn't qualify either as an advertisement or as a either as an advertisement or as a either as an advertisement or as a political donation. political donation. political donation. It's fully legal to do that in the dark. It's fully legal to do that in the dark. It's fully legal to do that in the dark. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, right. AI, right? A lot of a lot Well, right. AI, right? A lot of a lot Well, right. AI, right? A lot of a lot of paid doom out there. We were just of paid doom out there. We were just of paid doom out there. We were just talking about Aella's, talking about Aella's, talking about Aella's, you know, you know, you know, >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> a new media fellowship for doomers. >> a new media fellowship for doomers. >> a new media fellowship for doomers. And yeah, it's a perfect example And yeah, it's a perfect example And yeah, it's a perfect example and it, you know, seems to be having a and it, you know, seems to be having a and it, you know, seems to be having a real impact. real impact. real impact. This is a great example. So, this is the This is a great example. So, this is the This is a great example. So, this is the thing, right? You know, they're they're thing, right? You know, they're they're thing, right? You know, they're they're living the meme, right? They're living living the meme, right? They're living living the meme, right? They're living the meme. So, cuz cuz so so this is a the meme. So, cuz cuz so so this is a the meme. So, cuz cuz so so this is a good So, good So, good So, so so so I don't know if you you you may have I don't know if you you you may have I don't know if you you you may have covered all this already, but yeah. So, covered all this already, but yeah. So, covered all this already, but yeah. So, so like there we we know we're in this so like there we we know we're in this so like there we we know we're in this AI we're in this pitch AI policy battle AI we're in this pitch AI policy battle AI we're in this pitch AI policy battle and we we know through that and we we're and we we know through that and we we're and we we know through that and we we're we're deep into this. We know that we're deep into this. We know that we're deep into this. We know that there's dark money in in AI. Like, a lot there's dark money in in AI. Like, a lot there's dark money in in AI. Like, a lot of the AI doomers and stuff is basically of the AI doomers and stuff is basically of the AI doomers and stuff is basically bought and paid for. Like so there's bought and paid for. Like so there's bought and paid for. Like so there's this these influence operations that are this these influence operations that are this these influence operations that are happening and they fall into this bucket happening and they fall into this bucket happening and they fall into this bucket of it it's it's it's neither an of it it's it's it's neither an of it it's it's it's neither an advertisement to say AI is going to kill advertisement to say AI is going to kill advertisement to say AI is going to kill everybody nor is it a political everybody nor is it a political everybody nor is it a political candidate. And so you there are candidate. And so you there are candidate. And so you there are organizations and companies that are organizations and companies that are organizations and companies that are paying that you know that they're paying that you know that they're paying that you know that they're they're they're there's that and again they're they're there's that and again they're they're there's that and again it's like not not everybody who says it's like not not everybody who says it's like not not everybody who says that is is is being paid but that there that is is is being paid but that there that is is is being paid but that there there is a lot of dark money in in that there is a lot of dark money in in that there is a lot of dark money in in that in in that world right now. Um and so in in that world right now. Um and so in in that world right now. Um and so and of course you know that the and of course you know that the and of course you know that the partisans in that world insist full on partisans in that world insist full on partisans in that world insist full on of course that there's you know that of course that there's you know that of course that there's you know that that of course is absolutely not that of course is absolutely not that of course is absolutely not happening until yesterday. Um when they happening until yesterday. Um when they happening until yesterday. Um when they just go ahead and like live the meme and just go ahead and like live the meme and just go ahead and like live the meme and they just like announce the program. Um they just like announce the program. Um they just like announce the program. Um and so and so and so >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> So they announce the program in black >> So they announce the program in black >> So they announce the program in black and white um right there on the website. and white um right there on the website. and white um right there on the website. It's like a influencer camp in which It's like a influencer camp in which It's like a influencer camp in which you're going to go did that that that you're going to go did that that that you're going to go did that that that that and by the way it's free right that and by the way it's free right that and by the way it's free right which means you know you're you know which means you know you're you know which means you know you're you know you're being you're being paid. you're being you're being paid. you're being you're being paid. Um and then they say you know where's Um and then they say you know where's Um and then they say you know where's the money coming from and they say oh the money coming from and they say oh the money coming from and they say oh you know we're a non-profit being funded you know we're a non-profit being funded you know we're a non-profit being funded by by in this case MIRI which is one one by by in this case MIRI which is one one by by in this case MIRI which is one one one one organization with its own kind one one organization with its own kind one one organization with its own kind of interesting funding history. And then of interesting funding history. And then of interesting funding history. And then they say and other donors. they say and other donors. they say and other donors. Right then they Right then they Right then they Right. It's like Right. It's like Right. It's like It's literally you know it's literally It's literally you know it's literally It's literally you know it's literally like it's it's literally like is it you like it's it's literally like is it you like it's it's literally like is it you I don't know is it a conspiracy if it's I don't know is it a conspiracy if it's I don't know is it a conspiracy if it's in plain sight? in plain sight? in plain sight? But and I'm just I'm picking on that one But and I'm just I'm picking on that one But and I'm just I'm picking on that one cuz that's the one that happened cuz that's the one that happened cuz that's the one that happened yesterday but like that that for sure is yesterday but like that that for sure is yesterday but like that that for sure is happening all throughout politics. It's happening all throughout politics. It's happening all throughout politics. It's for sure happening on lots and lots of for sure happening on lots and lots of for sure happening on lots and lots of social issues. social issues. social issues. Um you know it's it's it's a it's a Um you know it's it's it's a it's a Um you know it's it's it's a it's a thing. Um uh and so yeah and so like but thing. Um uh and so yeah and so like but thing. Um uh and so yeah and so like but again it goes back to this thing of like again it goes back to this thing of like again it goes back to this thing of like okay yes there are ops. Yes you can't okay yes there are ops. Yes you can't okay yes there are ops. Yes you can't believe what you see. By the way there believe what you see. By the way there believe what you see. By the way there there are there are there are bot farms. there are there are there are bot farms. there are there are there are bot farms. Like there are obviously bot farms. Um Like there are obviously bot farms. Um Like there are obviously bot farms. Um and they're obviously bot farms that are and they're obviously bot farms that are and they're obviously bot farms that are being deployed. You know there there are being deployed. You know there there are being deployed. You know there there are online influencers some of them very online influencers some of them very online influencers some of them very controversial where you know they controversial where you know they controversial where you know they clearly there's clearly a bot army clearly there's clearly a bot army clearly there's clearly a bot army behind them. By the way you could be an behind them. By the way you could be an behind them. By the way you could be an influencer online and have a bot army influencer online and have a bot army influencer online and have a bot army behind you and have nothing to do with a behind you and have nothing to do with a behind you and have nothing to do with a bot army. bot army. bot army. Right. Like somebody could be paying for Right. Like somebody could be paying for Right. Like somebody could be paying for the bot army and you might not even know the bot army and you might not even know the bot army and you might not even know about it. about it. about it. Um and again today it's totally legal to Um and again today it's totally legal to Um and again today it's totally legal to do that cuz again if it's if you're not do that cuz again if it's if you're not do that cuz again if it's if you're not selling a product or not donating to a selling a product or not donating to a selling a product or not donating to a political candidate like it's it's political candidate like it's it's political candidate like it's it's actually in this gray it's actually fine actually in this gray it's actually fine actually in this gray it's actually fine to do. And so I think it's It's to do. And so I think it's It's to do. And so I think it's It's the case that like there's ops all over the case that like there's ops all over the case that like there's ops all over the place and quite frankly, like the the place and quite frankly, like the the place and quite frankly, like the longer I I you more deeper I get into longer I I you more deeper I get into longer I I you more deeper I get into it, the more like, yeah, there's it, the more like, yeah, there's it, the more like, yeah, there's probably more ops than I've been that probably more ops than I've been that probably more ops than I've been that I've been um that I that I've been I've I've been um that I that I've been I've I've been um that I that I've been I've been uh willing to acknowledge. Um but, been uh willing to acknowledge. Um but, been uh willing to acknowledge. Um but, I would just say on the other side, it's I would just say on the other side, it's I would just say on the other side, it's like like like I don't know. Does it really matter? I don't know. Does it really matter? I don't know. Does it really matter? Like Like Like is that really the thing that the cuz is that really the thing that the cuz is that really the thing that the cuz the ops are only going to work the other the ops are only going to work the other the ops are only going to work the other way to put it is the ops are only going way to put it is the ops are only going way to put it is the ops are only going to work if they if they resonate into to work if they if they resonate into to work if they if they resonate into something that people are going to pick something that people are going to pick something that people are going to pick up and run with up and run with up and run with you know, anyway. Like to become a mass you know, anyway. Like to become a mass you know, anyway. Like to become a mass movement, this is like what Timur Kuran movement, this is like what Timur Kuran movement, this is like what Timur Kuran says about the role of the availability says about the role of the availability says about the role of the availability like, it's not enough to just like have like, it's not enough to just like have like, it's not enough to just like have your cause your cause your cause and then just like expect that you can and then just like expect that you can and then just like expect that you can kind of trick people into running with kind of trick people into running with kind of trick people into running with your cause. There has to be something to your cause. There has to be something to your cause. There has to be something to it that resonates with them. Uh you it that resonates with them. Uh you it that resonates with them. Uh you know, kind of in them already. Um the know, kind of in them already. Um the know, kind of in them already. Um the causes the causes the causes them to causes the causes the causes them to causes the causes the causes them to Uh and and if if maybe they pick it up Uh and and if if maybe they pick it up Uh and and if if maybe they pick it up and run with it based on the paid op, and run with it based on the paid op, and run with it based on the paid op, and and by the way, maybe in the and and by the way, maybe in the and and by the way, maybe in the counterfactual they would have picked up counterfactual they would have picked up counterfactual they would have picked up and run with it anyway, you know, and run with it anyway, you know, and run with it anyway, you know, without the op, and you know, you'll without the op, and you know, you'll without the op, and you know, you'll never know. Yeah. never know. Yeah. never know. Yeah. The um The um The um that that's a great mental model for it. that that's a great mental model for it. that that's a great mental model for it. Think about a last topic for today. I Think about a last topic for today. I Think about a last topic for today. I want to close uh close on the say sort want to close uh close on the say sort want to close uh close on the say sort of the bridge between legacy and new of the bridge between legacy and new of the bridge between legacy and new media because we see just give some media because we see just give some media because we see just give some examples. Obviously, the New York Times examples. Obviously, the New York Times examples. Obviously, the New York Times they've made the adjustment to the new they've made the adjustment to the new they've made the adjustment to the new world um very well from a business world um very well from a business world um very well from a business perspective. You know, we had um CBS perspective. You know, we had um CBS perspective. You know, we had um CBS acquire the Free Press, and so there's acquire the Free Press, and so there's acquire the Free Press, and so there's some, you know, acquisitions there uh some, you know, acquisitions there uh some, you know, acquisitions there uh strategic acquisitions for legacy media strategic acquisitions for legacy media strategic acquisitions for legacy media companies who are trying to innovate. companies who are trying to innovate. companies who are trying to innovate. You know, uh on MTS ourselves, we're You know, uh on MTS ourselves, we're You know, uh on MTS ourselves, we're sort of experimenting with with players sort of experimenting with with players sort of experimenting with with players from both worlds. You know, we have um from both worlds. You know, we have um from both worlds. You know, we have um new school of podcasters and Twitch new school of podcasters and Twitch new school of podcasters and Twitch streamer, you know, Theo is Theo is 21 streamer, you know, Theo is Theo is 21 streamer, you know, Theo is Theo is 21 years old? years old? years old? Yeah. 20 Yeah, he's born to be a a Yeah. 20 Yeah, he's born to be a a Yeah. 20 Yeah, he's born to be a a Twitch streamer, but we also have I Twitch streamer, but we also have I Twitch streamer, but we also have I mean, 21, I mean, over the hill. Yeah, mean, 21, I mean, over the hill. Yeah, mean, 21, I mean, over the hill. Yeah, exactly. What, you know? exactly. What, you know? exactly. What, you know? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Has been by now. Gray hair, gray hair. >> Has been by now. Gray hair, gray hair. >> Has been by now. Gray hair, gray hair. Washed. Yeah, washed. Washed. Yeah, washed. Washed. Yeah, washed. But, we also have Mark Halperin who uh But, we also have Mark Halperin who uh But, we also have Mark Halperin who uh you know, as a you know, legacy and you know, as a you know, legacy and you know, as a you know, legacy and legendary um you know, uh commentator legendary um you know, uh commentator legendary um you know, uh commentator and host who who funny enough uh Uh, and host who who funny enough uh Uh, and host who who funny enough uh Uh, know, we've talked about how know, we've talked about how know, we've talked about how is the is the bridge figure uh in that is the is the bridge figure uh in that is the is the bridge figure uh in that he was successful both in legacy and in he was successful both in legacy and in he was successful both in legacy and in this new media media climate. Um, and this new media media climate. Um, and this new media media climate. Um, and it's rare for people to do both. it's rare for people to do both. it's rare for people to do both. Halperin, of course, interviewed did a Halperin, of course, interviewed did a Halperin, of course, interviewed did a very famous interview with Trump when he very famous interview with Trump when he very famous interview with Trump when he was talking about the Bible verses and was talking about the Bible verses and was talking about the Bible verses and getting getting him uh getting getting him uh getting getting him uh to mention some specific ones and you to mention some specific ones and you to mention some specific ones and you know, Trump of course didn't want to know, Trump of course didn't want to know, Trump of course didn't want to pick favorites. Um, pick favorites. Um, pick favorites. Um, anyway, I'm I'm curious how you think anyway, I'm I'm curious how you think anyway, I'm I'm curious how you think about the sort of the bridge um about the sort of the bridge um about the sort of the bridge um either analysis of either analysis of either analysis of Trump as a bridge or or more just how do Trump as a bridge or or more just how do Trump as a bridge or or more just how do you see legacy players and new media you see legacy players and new media you see legacy players and new media players um sort of you know, playing out players um sort of you know, playing out players um sort of you know, playing out or even the styles of what will work in or even the styles of what will work in or even the styles of what will work in this new new format. this new new format. this new new format. Yeah, I mean, so I guess Yeah, I mean, so I guess Yeah, I mean, so I guess I don't know, you maybe start with data, I don't know, you maybe start with data, I don't know, you maybe start with data, right? So, um the data shows that right? So, um the data shows that right? So, um the data shows that basically Um, so if you focus on American data cuz Um, so if you focus on American data cuz what I'm most familiar with. So, just in what I'm most familiar with. So, just in what I'm most familiar with. So, just in the data you basically see a couple the data you basically see a couple the data you basically see a couple things. So, one is um trust in things. So, one is um trust in things. So, one is um trust in centralized institutions of all kinds is centralized institutions of all kinds is centralized institutions of all kinds is is collapsing in the US. Um, so is collapsing in the US. Um, so is collapsing in the US. Um, so basically any kind of legacy basically any kind of legacy basically any kind of legacy um or um um or um um or um incumbent institution you know, trust is incumbent institution you know, trust is incumbent institution you know, trust is collapsing fast. By the way, that collapsing fast. By the way, that collapsing fast. By the way, that collapse in trust didn't start with the collapse in trust didn't start with the collapse in trust didn't start with the internet. It actually started around internet. It actually started around internet. It actually started around 1970. Um, 1970. Um, 1970. Um, it actually it actually it actually uh it actually it's it's part of this uh it actually it's it's part of this uh it actually it's it's part of this it's part of this WTF happened in 1971 it's part of this WTF happened in 1971 it's part of this WTF happened in 1971 uh meme um is when basically trust in uh meme um is when basically trust in uh meme um is when basically trust in centralized institutions in the US centralized institutions in the US centralized institutions in the US started to fall off a cliff. started to fall off a cliff. started to fall off a cliff. Um, that's true for many kinds of Um, that's true for many kinds of Um, that's true for many kinds of centralized institutions and it's been centralized institutions and it's been centralized institutions and it's been true for you know, basically 55 years. true for you know, basically 55 years. true for you know, basically 55 years. Um, but but media's included in that. Um, but but media's included in that. Um, but but media's included in that. Um, and so trust in centralized media is Um, and so trust in centralized media is Um, and so trust in centralized media is collapsing and you know, keeps hitting collapsing and you know, keeps hitting collapsing and you know, keeps hitting new record lows basically every time new record lows basically every time new record lows basically every time they run the survey it collapses they run the survey it collapses they run the survey it collapses further. further. further. Um, and so so that's certainly true. And Um, and so so that's certainly true. And Um, and so so that's certainly true. And then you and then the the business then you and then the the business then you and then the the business version of it is just very clear which version of it is just very clear which version of it is just very clear which is you know, we've talked about CNN is you know, we've talked about CNN is you know, we've talked about CNN later like you're earlier like you know, later like you're earlier like you know, later like you're earlier like you know, ratings for all the centralized media ratings for all the centralized media ratings for all the centralized media properties are in full scale collapse. properties are in full scale collapse. properties are in full scale collapse. Um, you know, cable news is collapsing. Um, you know, cable news is collapsing. Um, you know, cable news is collapsing. Um, you know, almost every almost every Um, you know, almost every almost every Um, you know, almost every almost every newspaper has collapsed. Um, almost newspaper has collapsed. Um, almost newspaper has collapsed. Um, almost every magazine has collapsed. Um, every magazine has collapsed. Um, every magazine has collapsed. Um, you know, basically all the all the all you know, basically all the all the all you know, basically all the all the all the legacy formats have collapsed. Um the legacy formats have collapsed. Um the legacy formats have collapsed. Um Uh you know, with only very very rare Uh you know, with only very very rare Uh you know, with only very very rare exceptions. Um and so, you know, just exceptions. Um and so, you know, just exceptions. Um and so, you know, just and then by the way, of course, finally, and then by the way, of course, finally, and then by the way, of course, finally, it's just sort of obvious, you know, the it's just sort of obvious, you know, the it's just sort of obvious, you know, the the rise of podcasts obviously is is the rise of podcasts obviously is is the rise of podcasts obviously is is obvious now. Um obvious now. Um obvious now. Um and by the way, it's amazing like the and by the way, it's amazing like the and by the way, it's amazing like the election of '24 was the one where election of '24 was the one where election of '24 was the one where podcasts kind of flipped the you know, podcasts kind of flipped the you know, podcasts kind of flipped the you know, it went from being like, I don't know if it went from being like, I don't know if it went from being like, I don't know if this matters to like all of a sudden this matters to like all of a sudden this matters to like all of a sudden everybody's like, oh wow, this matters everybody's like, oh wow, this matters everybody's like, oh wow, this matters like a lot. Um and so, the rise of like a lot. Um and so, the rise of like a lot. Um and so, the rise of podcasts of course is undeniable at this podcasts of course is undeniable at this podcasts of course is undeniable at this point. The rise of social media, the point. The rise of social media, the point. The rise of social media, the rise of of live streaming. Um you know, rise of of live streaming. Um you know, rise of of live streaming. Um you know, these things are clearly happening. And these things are clearly happening. And these things are clearly happening. And so, like the the the the changing of the so, like the the the the changing of the so, like the the the the changing of the guard, reordering of the the businesses guard, reordering of the the businesses guard, reordering of the the businesses and of the cultural and social phenomena and of the cultural and social phenomena and of the cultural and social phenomena are clearly happening and I think are are clearly happening and I think are are clearly happening and I think are undeniable. Um you know, if you undeniable. Um you know, if you undeniable. Um you know, if you extrapolate forward, like obviously all extrapolate forward, like obviously all extrapolate forward, like obviously all you know, essentially all of the you know, essentially all of the you know, essentially all of the remaining old media properties that remaining old media properties that remaining old media properties that don't figure out a way to adapt uh to don't figure out a way to adapt uh to don't figure out a way to adapt uh to the new world are going to you know, the new world are going to you know, the new world are going to you know, they're they're you know, going to get they're they're you know, going to get they're they're you know, going to get basically run basically run basically run as my private equity and that'll be as my private equity and that'll be as my private equity and that'll be that. Um you know, which is kind of the that. Um you know, which is kind of the that. Um you know, which is kind of the story of the newspaper industry industry story of the newspaper industry industry story of the newspaper industry industry these days. Um these days. Um these days. Um so so I you know, that that like it's so so I you know, that that like it's so so I you know, that that like it's almost like not even interesting to say almost like not even interesting to say almost like not even interesting to say that anymore just cuz it's like it's so that anymore just cuz it's like it's so that anymore just cuz it's like it's so obvious that that's happening and then, obvious that that's happening and then, obvious that that's happening and then, you know, obviously social media, you you know, obviously social media, you you know, obviously social media, you know, continues to grow as a phenomenon. know, continues to grow as a phenomenon. know, continues to grow as a phenomenon. Um Um Um uh continues to be very important. Um uh continues to be very important. Um uh continues to be very important. Um uh and so, yeah. And you know, look, uh and so, yeah. And you know, look, uh and so, yeah. And you know, look, we're still we're still living in this we're still we're still living in this we're still we're still living in this we're we're still living in a in a we're we're still living in a in a we're we're still living in a in a hybrid world today, right? Um and so, hybrid world today, right? Um and so, hybrid world today, right? Um and so, we're still living in a world um in we're still living in a world um in we're still living in a world um in which like, you know, to some extent it which like, you know, to some extent it which like, you know, to some extent it still matters what's on TV, but like not still matters what's on TV, but like not still matters what's on TV, but like not nearly as much as it did, but you know, nearly as much as it did, but you know, nearly as much as it did, but you know, pretty soon it's not it's not going to pretty soon it's not it's not going to pretty soon it's not it's not going to anymore. So, uh you know, so so so that anymore. So, uh you know, so so so that anymore. So, uh you know, so so so that world is changing fast. Um yeah, I I world is changing fast. Um yeah, I I world is changing fast. Um yeah, I I just think yeah, the just think yeah, the just think yeah, the the main thing is going to be um you the main thing is going to be um you the main thing is going to be um you know, the the the the people who adapt know, the the the the people who adapt know, the the the the people who adapt to that are are people who adapt to that to that are are people who adapt to that to that are are people who adapt to that are going to adapt to that. Um and are going to adapt to that. Um and are going to adapt to that. Um and they're they're either going to adapt or they're they're either going to adapt or they're they're either going to adapt or they're not. Um you know, you mentioned they're not. Um you know, you mentioned they're not. Um you know, you mentioned Mark Mark Halperin, you know, who's a Mark Mark Halperin, you know, who's a Mark Mark Halperin, you know, who's a good good friend of both of ours. Um and good good friend of both of ours. Um and good good friend of both of ours. Um and you know, he's I think he's doing like you know, he's I think he's doing like you know, he's I think he's doing like an amazing job adapting to that and in a an amazing job adapting to that and in a an amazing job adapting to that and in a way that's just like I would say way that's just like I would say way that's just like I would say shockingly different um and better than shockingly different um and better than shockingly different um and better than you know, most of his former former you know, most of his former former you know, most of his former former colleagues. colleagues. colleagues. Um you know, there's great examples that Um you know, there's great examples that Um you know, there's great examples that you know, then you get The New York you know, then you get The New York you know, then you get The New York Times has adapted to that in an Times has adapted to that in an Times has adapted to that in an interesting way. interesting way. interesting way. Um you know, the the Hasan [ __ ] um um a Um you know, the the Hasan [ __ ] um um a Um you know, the the Hasan [ __ ] um um a a newspaper um has fully committed a newspaper um has fully committed a newspaper um has fully committed itself to um itself to um itself to um to the future, let's say. to the future, let's say. to the future, let's say. Um so, you know, they're they're doing Um so, you know, they're they're doing Um so, you know, they're they're doing their thing. their thing. their thing. Um yeah, Um yeah, Um yeah, you know, most of legacy properties you know, most of legacy properties you know, most of legacy properties won't adapt. They, you know, they never won't adapt. They, you know, they never won't adapt. They, you know, they never do. Um there's going to be lots and lots do. Um there's going to be lots and lots do. Um there's going to be lots and lots of new things um that emerge. Um of new things um that emerge. Um of new things um that emerge. Um And maybe I I should say here again to And maybe I I should say here again to And maybe I I should say here again to not sound not sound cynical about this, not sound not sound cynical about this, not sound not sound cynical about this, like like like it is really striking. it is really striking. it is really striking. I'll say the following. So, like what I'll say the following. So, like what I'll say the following. So, like what are the two like mega mega mega trends are the two like mega mega mega trends are the two like mega mega mega trends in video uh and and and and by the way, in video uh and and and and by the way, in video uh and and and and by the way, also in politics over the course of last also in politics over the course of last also in politics over the course of last like 5 years. It's basically two things. like 5 years. It's basically two things. like 5 years. It's basically two things. It's it's short-form video in the form It's it's short-form video in the form It's it's short-form video in the form of TikTok, Instagram, and and and and X, of TikTok, Instagram, and and and and X, of TikTok, Instagram, and and and and X, you know, short-form, you know, Reels uh you know, short-form, you know, Reels uh you know, short-form, you know, Reels uh or short-form video. Uh and and there or short-form video. Uh and and there or short-form video. Uh and and there you get like the full battery of you get like the full battery of you get like the full battery of accusations of like, you know, accusations of like, you know, accusations of like, you know, destroying attention span and destroying attention span and destroying attention span and everything's trivial. everything's trivial. everything's trivial. Um but on the other side is the rise of Um but on the other side is the rise of Um but on the other side is the rise of the 3-hour podcast. the 3-hour podcast. the 3-hour podcast. Um and so on the on the podcast side, Um and so on the on the podcast side, Um and so on the on the podcast side, you have this incredible phenomenon with you have this incredible phenomenon with you have this incredible phenomenon with 3 hours. And by the way, some of these, 3 hours. And by the way, some of these, 3 hours. And by the way, some of these, you know, Joe and and Lex and others are you know, Joe and and Lex and others are you know, Joe and and Lex and others are now pushing this to the point where, you now pushing this to the point where, you now pushing this to the point where, you know, Lex now has like in some cases know, Lex now has like in some cases know, Lex now has like in some cases 7-hour podcasts, right? I think what is 7-hour podcasts, right? I think what is 7-hour podcasts, right? I think what is it biology did like a 10-hour one on it biology did like a 10-hour one on it biology did like a 10-hour one on 10-hour one on Lex. Yeah, yeah. So, 10-hour one on Lex. Yeah, yeah. So, 10-hour one on Lex. Yeah, yeah. So, biology went for 10 hours on Lex. Um and biology went for 10 hours on Lex. Um and biology went for 10 hours on Lex. Um and so and it's actually interesting cuz if so and it's actually interesting cuz if so and it's actually interesting cuz if you talk to those guys, they get data on you talk to those guys, they get data on you talk to those guys, they get data on completion rates. Um and and it's completion rates. Um and and it's completion rates. Um and and it's actually a very large percentage of actually a very large percentage of actually a very large percentage of their of their listeners or viewers who their of their listeners or viewers who their of their listeners or viewers who actually listen to the whole thing. actually listen to the whole thing. actually listen to the whole thing. Um so, like many many many Rogan Um so, like many many many Rogan Um so, like many many many Rogan podcasts or Lex podcasts, people podcasts or Lex podcasts, people podcasts or Lex podcasts, people actually listen to the full the full 3 actually listen to the full the full 3 actually listen to the full the full 3 hours. hours. hours. Um and so so it's it's the thing I Um and so so it's it's the thing I Um and so so it's it's the thing I really rejected this idea that like, you really rejected this idea that like, you really rejected this idea that like, you know, I don't want people to think that know, I don't want people to think that know, I don't want people to think that I believe this is like this idea that I believe this is like this idea that I believe this is like this idea that everything is going to become just like everything is going to become just like everything is going to become just like trivial short-form social media [ __ ] trivial short-form social media [ __ ] trivial short-form social media [ __ ] like that. No, not at all. You have this like that. No, not at all. You have this like that. No, not at all. You have this correspond correspond correspond You do have a lot of that. But you have You do have a lot of that. But you have You do have a lot of that. But you have this corresponding thing, which is you this corresponding thing, which is you this corresponding thing, which is you also it's like a it's like a barbell. also it's like a it's like a barbell. also it's like a it's like a barbell. You also have this You you have this You also have this You you have this You also have this You you have this massive rise in substance. massive rise in substance. massive rise in substance. Um and on the substance side, I would Um and on the substance side, I would Um and on the substance side, I would point to the long-form podcasts. I would point to the long-form podcasts. I would point to the long-form podcasts. I would point to Substack. Um by the way, you point to Substack. Um by the way, you point to Substack. Um by the way, you know, there's a big push on X to have know, there's a big push on X to have know, there's a big push on X to have long-form essays. Um I would push uh you long-form essays. Um I would push uh you long-form essays. Um I would push uh you know, online you know, online online you know, online you know, online online you know, online you know, online online you know, courses uh on every topic are know, courses uh on every topic are know, courses uh on every topic are available. Um and um uh you just yeah, available. Um and um uh you just yeah, available. Um and um uh you just yeah, you have this ability. But I've even AI you have this ability. But I've even AI you have this ability. But I've even AI what my favorite feature of AI is what what my favorite feature of AI is what what my favorite feature of AI is what they call deep research. Uh which is a they call deep research. Uh which is a they call deep research. Uh which is a feature on both I think it's on feature on both I think it's on feature on both I think it's on particularly on ChatGPT and on Claude, particularly on ChatGPT and on Claude, particularly on ChatGPT and on Claude, but like you set it loose and it will but like you set it loose and it will but like you set it loose and it will write you like literally 30 pages. Uh a write you like literally 30 pages. Uh a write you like literally 30 pages. Uh a 30-page answer, you know, this is 30-page answer, you know, this is 30-page answer, you know, this is basically like a textbook on any topic. basically like a textbook on any topic. basically like a textbook on any topic. Um and so so I I think there there is Um and so so I I think there there is Um and so so I I think there there is this other side which is you you have this other side which is you you have this other side which is you you have this you also have this growth in you this you also have this growth in you this you also have this growth in you have this growth in Oh, the other thing have this growth in Oh, the other thing have this growth in Oh, the other thing is just in we're an example of this, the is just in we're an example of this, the is just in we're an example of this, the rise of the practitioner media. rise of the practitioner media. rise of the practitioner media. Uh Uh Uh practitioner-driven media. So, practitioner-driven media. So, practitioner-driven media. So, people who are actually doing a thing people who are actually doing a thing people who are actually doing a thing showing up and talking about it. showing up and talking about it. showing up and talking about it. Um and of course, you know, that leads Um and of course, you know, that leads Um and of course, you know, that leads to all sorts of outrage of that's not to all sorts of outrage of that's not to all sorts of outrage of that's not journalism if you don't have somebody journalism if you don't have somebody journalism if you don't have somebody asking like whatever super you know, asking like whatever super you know, asking like whatever super you know, snippy critical questions about it or snippy critical questions about it or snippy critical questions about it or whatever. But like the idea for somebody whatever. But like the idea for somebody whatever. But like the idea for somebody who is actually doing a thing, I mean, who is actually doing a thing, I mean, who is actually doing a thing, I mean, you know, Andre Karpathy in AI, right? you know, Andre Karpathy in AI, right? you know, Andre Karpathy in AI, right? He just He just He just just like shows up and like explains just like shows up and like explains just like shows up and like explains like here here is how this all works. like here here is how this all works. like here here is how this all works. Um is is is just like amazing. And and Um is is is just like amazing. And and Um is is is just like amazing. And and you know, in in in old media like you know, in in in old media like you know, in in in old media like basically like when I when I was younger basically like when I when I was younger basically like when I when I was younger like Charlie Rose did that. like Charlie Rose did that. like Charlie Rose did that. But so I grew up actually listening to But so I grew up actually listening to But so I grew up actually listening to Charlie Rose watching Charlie Rose. But Charlie Rose watching Charlie Rose. But Charlie Rose watching Charlie Rose. But Charlie Rose literally was on at [ __ ] Charlie Rose literally was on at [ __ ] Charlie Rose literally was on at [ __ ] midnight. Like he was on CBS at midnight midnight. Like he was on CBS at midnight midnight. Like he was on CBS at midnight and he would have these hour-long and he would have these hour-long and he would have these hour-long conversations with these super conversations with these super conversations with these super interesting people doing super interesting people doing super interesting people doing super interesting things, but he was on at interesting things, but he was on at interesting things, but he was on at midnight and you had to stay up at midnight and you had to stay up at midnight and you had to stay up at midnight to watch Charlie Rose. Right? midnight to watch Charlie Rose. Right? midnight to watch Charlie Rose. Right? It was like it was one of the great It was like it was one of the great It was like it was one of the great things about getting a DVR is you could things about getting a DVR is you could things about getting a DVR is you could record, you know, Charlie Rose and watch record, you know, Charlie Rose and watch record, you know, Charlie Rose and watch it during during normal normal daylight it during during normal normal daylight it during during normal normal daylight hours. But you know, we lost that or we hours. But you know, we lost that or we hours. But you know, we lost that or we didn't have that for a very long time didn't have that for a very long time didn't have that for a very long time and we have that now. And so so I do and we have that now. And so so I do and we have that now. And so so I do think it's worth noting like there is think it's worth noting like there is think it's worth noting like there is this incredible in my view clearly this incredible in my view clearly this incredible in my view clearly incredibly positive, informative, incredibly positive, informative, incredibly positive, informative, educational, super helpful, super educational, super helpful, super educational, super helpful, super constructive thing on the other side constructive thing on the other side constructive thing on the other side which is of course a lot of what we try which is of course a lot of what we try which is of course a lot of what we try to do. to do. to do. And And And you know, if 2024 was the podcast you know, if 2024 was the podcast you know, if 2024 was the podcast election, election, election, it'll be interesting to see what 2028 it'll be interesting to see what 2028 it'll be interesting to see what 2028 people have been very concerned, you people have been very concerned, you people have been very concerned, you know, or or sort of predicting, you know, or or sort of predicting, you know, or or sort of predicting, you know, deep fakes for a while and how know, deep fakes for a while and how know, deep fakes for a while and how that might influence things, but we that might influence things, but we that might influence things, but we haven't really seen haven't really seen haven't really seen anything there super material it it anything there super material it it anything there super material it it seems, but it'll be interesting to see seems, but it'll be interesting to see seems, but it'll be interesting to see what what media formats or just how the what what media formats or just how the what what media formats or just how the 2028 election is is different than the 2028 election is is different than the 2028 election is is different than the 2024 one in 2024 one in 2024 one in this conversation. this conversation. this conversation. We've had deepfakes forever. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Like >> Like >> Like Like people have believed all kinds of Like people have believed all kinds of Like people have believed all kinds of crazy [ __ ] crazy [ __ ] crazy [ __ ] Um I mean, you know, there was there was Um I mean, you know, there was there was Um I mean, you know, there was there was the Gulf of Tonkin incident and they the Gulf of Tonkin incident and they the Gulf of Tonkin incident and they kicked off the really kicked off the kicked off the really kicked off the kicked off the really kicked off the Vietnam War. Like I think we now know Vietnam War. Like I think we now know Vietnam War. Like I think we now know that that was a fish. Like it's actually that that was a fish. Like it's actually that that was a fish. Like it's actually quite well established. Um then some quite well established. Um then some quite well established. Um then some people might say Russiagate. people might say Russiagate. people might say Russiagate. Um Um Um it was it turned turns out it was quite it was it turned turns out it was quite it was it turned turns out it was quite an elaborate fake. an elaborate fake. an elaborate fake. Um so I the the deepfake thing I find Um so I the the deepfake thing I find Um so I the the deepfake thing I find very funny cuz it's like it's not like very funny cuz it's like it's not like very funny cuz it's like it's not like we've been swimming in truth all this we've been swimming in truth all this we've been swimming in truth all this time and all of a sudden now that now time and all of a sudden now that now time and all of a sudden now that now there's going to be deepfakes. But there's going to be deepfakes. But there's going to be deepfakes. But anyway, that maybe that's a a separate anyway, that maybe that's a a separate anyway, that maybe that's a a separate conversation. The um conversation. The um conversation. The um I think the the the I think the the the I think the the the the the substantive comment I would make the the substantive comment I would make the the substantive comment I would make is um is um is um So uh So uh So uh So I actually think we have People talk So I actually think we have People talk So I actually think we have People talk about like famously talk about the 1960 about like famously talk about the 1960 about like famously talk about the 1960 election Kennedy versus Nixon where election Kennedy versus Nixon where election Kennedy versus Nixon where where famously where television took where famously where television took where famously where television took over from radio. Uh where if if you they over from radio. Uh where if if you they over from radio. Uh where if if you they had their famous debate and if you had their famous debate and if you had their famous debate and if you listened to the radio you thought Nixon listened to the radio you thought Nixon listened to the radio you thought Nixon won and if you watched it on TV you won and if you watched it on TV you won and if you watched it on TV you thought that the the the Kennedy won. Uh thought that the the the Kennedy won. Uh thought that the the the Kennedy won. Uh so so so you know, the the the the you so so so you know, the the the the you so so so you know, the the the the you know, audio versus audio plus video. Um know, audio versus audio plus video. Um know, audio versus audio plus video. Um and so people have been talking for a and so people have been talking for a and so people have been talking for a while you know, that was considered like while you know, that was considered like while you know, that was considered like the first television election where the first television election where the first television election where television was like the determining television was like the determining television was like the determining factor in who won or lost. factor in who won or lost. factor in who won or lost. Um along with you know, maybe some Um along with you know, maybe some Um along with you know, maybe some shenanigans in Chicago. shenanigans in Chicago. shenanigans in Chicago. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Anyway, >> Anyway, >> Anyway, um um um Speaking of deepfakes. Speaking of deepfakes. Speaking of deepfakes. Um Um Um so uh anyway, um people have been so uh anyway, um people have been so uh anyway, um people have been talking for a while about um when will talking for a while about um when will talking for a while about um when will there be the first internet election? Um there be the first internet election? Um there be the first internet election? Um and and you know, people like to point and and you know, people like to point and and you know, people like to point to 2016 being you know, Trump using to 2016 being you know, Trump using to 2016 being you know, Trump using social media or maybe 2024 being the social media or maybe 2024 being the social media or maybe 2024 being the podcast election. I actually think the podcast election. I actually think the podcast election. I actually think the first internet election hasn't happened first internet election hasn't happened first internet election hasn't happened yet. I I I yet. I I I yet. I I I By the way, people even point to 2008 By the way, people even point to 2008 By the way, people even point to 2008 with which with Obama fundraising. So with which with Obama fundraising. So with which with Obama fundraising. So yeah, 2008 Obama fundraising online. Uh yeah, 2008 Obama fundraising online. Uh yeah, 2008 Obama fundraising online. Uh 2016 Trump using using social media as a 2016 Trump using using social media as a 2016 Trump using using social media as a broadcast method and then 2024 podcast. broadcast method and then 2024 podcast. broadcast method and then 2024 podcast. So we've had three examples of internet So we've had three examples of internet So we've had three examples of internet mattering for elections for sure. mattering for elections for sure. mattering for elections for sure. Uh but I think we haven't had the true Uh but I think we haven't had the true Uh but I think we haven't had the true internet election and and I and and and internet election and and I and and and internet election and and I and and and as a consequence of that and and by the as a consequence of that and and by the as a consequence of that and and by the way we therefore haven't really had the way we therefore haven't really had the way we therefore haven't really had the true internet candidate yet. And true internet candidate yet. And true internet candidate yet. And actually it's interesting as people talk actually it's interesting as people talk actually it's interesting as people talk this is not a pro or negative pro or con this is not a pro or negative pro or con this is not a pro or negative pro or con comment on on Trump himself for the comment on on Trump himself for the comment on on Trump himself for the purpose of this discussion, but people purpose of this discussion, but people purpose of this discussion, but people talk about Trump as the internet talk about Trump as the internet talk about Trump as the internet candidate, but he really he's really a candidate, but he really he's really a candidate, but he really he's really a hybrid. Um, in that he cares he cares hybrid. Um, in that he cares he cares hybrid. Um, in that he cares he cares enormously about what's on TV. Um, and enormously about what's on TV. Um, and enormously about what's on TV. Um, and he's on and he's and he's on TV a lot he's on and he's and he's on TV a lot he's on and he's and he's on TV a lot um, and he watches TV all the time um, and he watches TV all the time um, and he watches TV all the time famously in order to cuz TV is basically famously in order to cuz TV is basically famously in order to cuz TV is basically how he gets a read on the pulse of of how he gets a read on the pulse of of how he gets a read on the pulse of of sort of what's happening and of what sort of what's happening and of what sort of what's happening and of what people think about things and what people think about things and what people think about things and what people So like I think I think Trump's people So like I think I think Trump's people So like I think I think Trump's kind of underlying theory is the things kind of underlying theory is the things kind of underlying theory is the things that are on TV are the things that the that are on TV are the things that the that are on TV are the things that the people running the TV network know that people running the TV network know that people running the TV network know that their viewers want to see. And so their viewers want to see. And so their viewers want to see. And so therefore if you watch this on TV you therefore if you watch this on TV you therefore if you watch this on TV you can get a sense of what people actually can get a sense of what people actually can get a sense of what people actually think and I you know and as TV has been think and I you know and as TV has been think and I you know and as TV has been the dominant medium for the last 60 or the dominant medium for the last 60 or the dominant medium for the last 60 or 70 years, you know, that I you know, 70 years, you know, that I you know, 70 years, you know, that I you know, it's a pretty good theory. Obviously it's a pretty good theory. Obviously it's a pretty good theory. Obviously it's it's it's pretty well you know, it's it's it's pretty well you know, it's it's it's pretty well you know, quite well for him. quite well for him. quite well for him. Um, and then he and then he he also like Um, and then he and then he he also like Um, and then he and then he he also like cares a lot about like affecting what's cares a lot about like affecting what's cares a lot about like affecting what's on TV. on TV. on TV. Um, and and there's this there's this Um, and and there's this there's this Um, and and there's this there's this famous Trump story that lots of people famous Trump story that lots of people famous Trump story that lots of people have told where he'll be in a meeting have told where he'll be in a meeting have told where he'll be in a meeting and there'll be a TV on in the and there'll be a TV on in the and there'll be a TV on in the background he'll be watching it and background he'll be watching it and background he'll be watching it and he'll he'll have it with the sound off, he'll he'll have it with the sound off, he'll he'll have it with the sound off, but he'll be watching the Chiron the you but he'll be watching the Chiron the you but he'll be watching the Chiron the you know, the thing at the bottom of the know, the thing at the bottom of the know, the thing at the bottom of the screen the text that shows what what screen the text that shows what what screen the text that shows what what they're what they're saying and if he they're what they're saying and if he they're what they're saying and if he doesn't like what's on the Chiron he'll doesn't like what's on the Chiron he'll doesn't like what's on the Chiron he'll tweet something to change the subject. tweet something to change the subject. tweet something to change the subject. Right. And so he'll tweet and then he'll Right. And so he'll tweet and then he'll Right. And so he'll tweet and then he'll literally watch and the Chiron will literally watch and the Chiron will literally watch and the Chiron will change and he'll be like ah, you know, change and he'll be like ah, you know, change and he'll be like ah, you know, so he right he's right he's able to so he right he's right he's able to so he right he's right he's able to cause right he's able to single-handedly cause right he's able to single-handedly cause right he's able to single-handedly with his power of his Twitter to turn with his power of his Twitter to turn with his power of his Twitter to turn one current thing into another current one current thing into another current one current thing into another current thing, right? Okay. thing, right? Okay. thing, right? Okay. So so my my point is like he's he's a So so my my point is like he's he's a So so my my point is like he's he's a hybrid. He So he's he's very social hybrid. He So he's he's very social hybrid. He So he's he's very social media fluent, but he's also very media fluent, but he's also very media fluent, but he's also very television. And of course his entire television. And of course his entire television. And of course his entire career was made on television. So he's career was made on television. So he's career was made on television. So he's he's very television fluent. He's one of he's very television fluent. He's one of he's very television fluent. He's one of the best you know, television the best you know, television the best you know, television programmers in history. And he's and programmers in history. And he's and programmers in history. And he's and he's and he's a social media native. Um, he's and he's a social media native. Um, he's and he's a social media native. Um, there will be an internet candidate. there will be an internet candidate. there will be an internet candidate. There will be an internet president who There will be an internet president who There will be an internet president who gets elected and I I believe entirely gets elected and I I believe entirely gets elected and I I believe entirely based on the internet. based on the internet. based on the internet. Um, where they don't pay any attention Um, where they don't pay any attention Um, where they don't pay any attention at all to what's on TV. at all to what's on TV. at all to what's on TV. Um, because it doesn't matter to them Um, because it doesn't matter to them Um, because it doesn't matter to them one bit. Um, and they're going to be one bit. Um, and they're going to be one bit. Um, and they're going to be entirely online and they're not going to entirely online and they're not going to entirely online and they're not going to care what's in the on TV and they're not care what's in the on TV and they're not care what's in the on TV and they're not going to care what's in the newspaper going to care what's in the newspaper going to care what's in the newspaper and they're going to be 100% a creature and they're going to be 100% a creature and they're going to be 100% a creature of the internet. Um, and and I think we of the internet. Um, and and I think we of the internet. Um, and and I think we haven't I I believe we haven't seen that haven't I I believe we haven't seen that haven't I I believe we haven't seen that yet. I don't know when we're going to yet. I don't know when we're going to yet. I don't know when we're going to see it. I'm pretty sure see it. I'm pretty sure see it. I'm pretty sure possible it's 20 Um, probably my guess possible it's 20 Um, probably my guess possible it's 20 Um, probably my guess is 32. is 32. is 32. Um, yeah. And so I I think we all have Um, yeah. And so I I think we all have Um, yeah. And so I I think we all have Yes. Yes. Yes. For better or for worse, we all have we For better or for worse, we all have we For better or for worse, we all have we all have that to look forward to. Yeah. all have that to look forward to. Yeah. all have that to look forward to. Yeah. The uh well, I think that's a great note The uh well, I think that's a great note The uh well, I think that's a great note to to wrap on. This has been a great to to wrap on. This has been a great to to wrap on. This has been a great discussion all things media. Uh Mark, discussion all things media. Uh Mark, discussion all things media. Uh Mark, thank you for coming on the first day of thank you for coming on the first day of thank you for coming on the first day of Monitoring the Situation. Monitoring the Situation. Monitoring the Situation. I am proud to be part of the monitoring. I am proud to be part of the monitoring. I am proud to be part of the monitoring. Excellent.