Life Advice From 80+ Year Olds You Didn’t Know You Needed

How much does our belief around health How much does our belief around health impact our health? impact our health? impact our health? >> Yeah. Well, you know that I agree with >> Yeah. Well, you know that I agree with >> Yeah. Well, you know that I agree with you that the impact is potentially you that the impact is potentially you that the impact is potentially enormous. Um but in many ways, you know, enormous. Um but in many ways, you know, enormous. Um but in many ways, you know, that if you think you're getting sick, that if you think you're getting sick, that if you think you're getting sick, then you do getting sick things. Um and then you do getting sick things. Um and then you do getting sick things. Um and you may stay in bed. Uh you may avoid you may stay in bed. Uh you may avoid you may stay in bed. Uh you may avoid relationships for the moment. um you relationships for the moment. um you relationships for the moment. um you avoid those things that are fun and avoid those things that are fun and avoid those things that are fun and exciting. And it turns out those things exciting. And it turns out those things exciting. And it turns out those things you're avoiding are actually good for you're avoiding are actually good for you're avoiding are actually good for your health. Um and staying in bed is your health. Um and staying in bed is your health. Um and staying in bed is probably bad for your health. And so probably bad for your health. And so probably bad for your health. And so you're making yourself sicker and that's you're making yourself sicker and that's you're making yourself sicker and that's one way it becomes a self-fulfilling one way it becomes a self-fulfilling one way it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You know, I had this thing prophecy. You know, I had this thing prophecy. You know, I had this thing where uh again, it's an anecdote. Um but where uh again, it's an anecdote. Um but where uh again, it's an anecdote. Um but I'll I'll think I'm getting something. I'll I'll think I'm getting something. I'll I'll think I'm getting something. Doesn't matter what it is. And then the Doesn't matter what it is. And then the Doesn't matter what it is. And then the next day I forgot that I was getting it. next day I forgot that I was getting it. next day I forgot that I was getting it. I'm always better. Um, and you know, but I'm always better. Um, and you know, but I'm always better. Um, and you know, but when the problem with an anecdote is when the problem with an anecdote is when the problem with an anecdote is we're talking about a sample, a very we're talking about a sample, a very we're talking about a sample, a very small sample size, sample size of one. small sample size, sample size of one. small sample size, sample size of one. >> And um, but I like you think that I'm >> And um, but I like you think that I'm >> And um, but I like you think that I'm almost invulnerable. almost invulnerable. almost invulnerable. >> Uh, if I get anything, it goes away very >> Uh, if I get anything, it goes away very >> Uh, if I get anything, it goes away very quickly. quickly. quickly. um you know there can be many um you know there can be many um you know there can be many explanations for that course but I think explanations for that course but I think explanations for that course but I think the explanation that somehow my attitude the explanation that somehow my attitude the explanation that somehow my attitude and the way I live my life um is a and the way I live my life um is a and the way I live my life um is a protective factor even if ultimately protective factor even if ultimately protective factor even if ultimately we're found to be wrong is still right we're found to be wrong is still right we're found to be wrong is still right because if you're going to be there because if you're going to be there because if you're going to be there again you should be alive for it. Yeah, again you should be alive for it. Yeah, again you should be alive for it. Yeah, it's a this is such a an interesting it's a this is such a an interesting it's a this is such a an interesting topic, right? And yeah, in my latest topic, right? And yeah, in my latest topic, right? And yeah, in my latest book, Ellen, I write about the book, Ellen, I write about the book, Ellen, I write about the relationship between that's there in the relationship between that's there in the relationship between that's there in the literature between uh people who hold on literature between uh people who hold on literature between uh people who hold on to resentment and don't express their to resentment and don't express their to resentment and don't express their emotions and certain chronic illnesses emotions and certain chronic illnesses emotions and certain chronic illnesses like autoimmune disease and cancer, like autoimmune disease and cancer, like autoimmune disease and cancer, right? And I say very clear, these are right? And I say very clear, these are right? And I say very clear, these are associations, right? So they're not associations, right? So they're not associations, right? So they're not proving causation, but nonetheless proving causation, but nonetheless proving causation, but nonetheless there's there there's a lot there in the there's there there's a lot there in the there's there there's a lot there in the literature. Gabel Mate has covered this literature. Gabel Mate has covered this literature. Gabel Mate has covered this in detail in his book, The Myth of in detail in his book, The Myth of in detail in his book, The Myth of Normal. Um, and it also correlates with Normal. Um, and it also correlates with Normal. Um, and it also correlates with what many clinicians who look for these what many clinicians who look for these what many clinicians who look for these things have seen. I spent so long on things have seen. I spent so long on things have seen. I spent so long on this section because I didn't want to this section because I didn't want to this section because I didn't want to get this misinterpreted. And I what I get this misinterpreted. And I what I get this misinterpreted. And I what I said, and this I think is relevant to said, and this I think is relevant to said, and this I think is relevant to what you've just said, is I said, what you've just said, is I said, what you've just said, is I said, listen, it would be easy not to say listen, it would be easy not to say listen, it would be easy not to say this, right? I'm not saying this to put this, right? I'm not saying this to put this, right? I'm not saying this to put blame on people, but if this is a blame on people, but if this is a blame on people, but if this is a potential contributory factor, then if potential contributory factor, then if potential contributory factor, then if you don't know that information, you're you don't know that information, you're you don't know that information, you're not inclined to do anything and change not inclined to do anything and change not inclined to do anything and change anything. Whereas my goal is to try and anything. Whereas my goal is to try and anything. Whereas my goal is to try and help people. I think like you like we're help people. I think like you like we're help people. I think like you like we're we're doing what we do. We want to help we're doing what we do. We want to help we're doing what we do. We want to help people. Want to help people be more people. Want to help people be more people. Want to help people be more compassionate and less judgmental and go compassionate and less judgmental and go compassionate and less judgmental and go actually this information is important actually this information is important actually this information is important to know. And you know, interesting that to know. And you know, interesting that to know. And you know, interesting that even if, and I agree with you even if, and I agree with you even if, and I agree with you completely, I think the information is completely, I think the information is completely, I think the information is crucial and correct, but even if it crucial and correct, but even if it crucial and correct, but even if it turned out to be wrong, it's still turned out to be wrong, it's still turned out to be wrong, it's still right. It's right in that believing it right. It's right in that believing it right. It's right in that believing it leads you to act in a way where you're leads you to act in a way where you're leads you to act in a way where you're actually alive. You're feeding all the actually alive. You're feeding all the actually alive. You're feeding all the positive things about um uh your life. positive things about um uh your life. positive things about um uh your life. >> Yeah, this whole this whole area is >> Yeah, this whole this whole area is >> Yeah, this whole this whole area is deeply fascinating to me. um to finish deeply fascinating to me. um to finish deeply fascinating to me. um to finish off this conversation and I hope we have off this conversation and I hope we have off this conversation and I hope we have many more Ellen because I've not even many more Ellen because I've not even many more Ellen because I've not even scratched the surface of what I wanted scratched the surface of what I wanted scratched the surface of what I wanted to talk to you about in the section in to talk to you about in the section in to talk to you about in the section in the book on placeos which is amazing and the book on placeos which is amazing and the book on placeos which is amazing and this really fits in with your idea about this really fits in with your idea about this really fits in with your idea about the importance of uh mindfulness. the importance of uh mindfulness. the importance of uh mindfulness. >> You say this I believe that some >> You say this I believe that some >> You say this I believe that some clinical trial outcomes are positive clinical trial outcomes are positive clinical trial outcomes are positive because they encourage people to notice because they encourage people to notice because they encourage people to notice symptom variability. this totally symptom variability. this totally symptom variability. this totally somewhere inside of me that really somewhere inside of me that really somewhere inside of me that really connects and I thought yeah it's it's connects and I thought yeah it's it's connects and I thought yeah it's it's like what we said before about awareness like what we said before about awareness like what we said before about awareness right once you start bringing attention right once you start bringing attention right once you start bringing attention to something you start to change your to something you start to change your to something you start to change your relationship with it so can you explain relationship with it so can you explain relationship with it so can you explain what you meant by that powerful phrase what you meant by that powerful phrase what you meant by that powerful phrase >> sure what I well everybody knows that >> sure what I well everybody knows that >> sure what I well everybody knows that you know placebo is something inert you you know placebo is something inert you you know placebo is something inert you believe it's going to be effective and believe it's going to be effective and believe it's going to be effective and hence it's effective so if I take some hence it's effective so if I take some hence it's effective so if I take some medication and I think it's going to to medication and I think it's going to to medication and I think it's going to to be positive. Now I'm looking for ways be positive. Now I'm looking for ways be positive. Now I'm looking for ways that it's positive. And we said, you that it's positive. And we said, you that it's positive. And we said, you know, seek and you shall find. We always know, seek and you shall find. We always know, seek and you shall find. We always end up doing hypothesis confirming uh end up doing hypothesis confirming uh end up doing hypothesis confirming uh analysis. And so if I notice it's fine, analysis. And so if I notice it's fine, analysis. And so if I notice it's fine, then I'm also more likely to notice then I'm also more likely to notice then I'm also more likely to notice perhaps in a moment when it's not so perhaps in a moment when it's not so perhaps in a moment when it's not so fine. And then that naturally gives rise fine. And then that naturally gives rise fine. And then that naturally gives rise to the question, why was it fine in this to the question, why was it fine in this to the question, why was it fine in this moment and not in the other moment? moment and not in the other moment? moment and not in the other moment? Which then I can start testing. and that Which then I can start testing. and that Which then I can start testing. and that leads to um effects, positive effects leads to um effects, positive effects leads to um effects, positive effects across um all chronic illnesses that across um all chronic illnesses that across um all chronic illnesses that we've looked at. So, it's a way of we've looked at. So, it's a way of we've looked at. So, it's a way of explaining, you know, placeos. We go explaining, you know, placeos. We go explaining, you know, placeos. We go back to placeos, it's so funny because I back to placeos, it's so funny because I back to placeos, it's so funny because I think placeos, I'm sure you agree with think placeos, I'm sure you agree with think placeos, I'm sure you agree with me, are our strongest medicine. me, are our strongest medicine. me, are our strongest medicine. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And yet placeos, if somebody finds out >> And yet placeos, if somebody finds out >> And yet placeos, if somebody finds out they have a placebo, they no uh what do they have a placebo, they no uh what do they have a placebo, they no uh what do you mean it was just a placebo? They you mean it was just a placebo? They you mean it was just a placebo? They think it's real. not to realize that I think it's real. not to realize that I think it's real. not to realize that I think the effectiveness of all think the effectiveness of all think the effectiveness of all medication is largely I believe placebo. medication is largely I believe placebo. medication is largely I believe placebo. Now why are placeos given such a bad Now why are placeos given such a bad Now why are placeos given such a bad name? Well, you know, I think it comes name? Well, you know, I think it comes name? Well, you know, I think it comes from the pharmaceutical industry, right? from the pharmaceutical industry, right? from the pharmaceutical industry, right? That in order to bring a drug to market, That in order to bring a drug to market, That in order to bring a drug to market, this drug has to outperform the placebo. this drug has to outperform the placebo. this drug has to outperform the placebo. if it doesn't, damn it. I, you know, if it doesn't, damn it. I, you know, if it doesn't, damn it. I, you know, couldn't make those billions of dollars couldn't make those billions of dollars couldn't make those billions of dollars um without realizing that how effective um without realizing that how effective um without realizing that how effective this placebo actually is uh across all this placebo actually is uh across all this placebo actually is uh across all disorders. Yeah. And then there, you disorders. Yeah. And then there, you disorders. Yeah. And then there, you know, there are some people, most people know, there are some people, most people know, there are some people, most people are amanable to placeos, not everybody. are amanable to placeos, not everybody. are amanable to placeos, not everybody. Um and I think everybody should be and Um and I think everybody should be and Um and I think everybody should be and you know, if I had the time, I would you know, if I had the time, I would you know, if I had the time, I would pursue that. Um but yeah, you know, pursue that. Um but yeah, you know, pursue that. Um but yeah, you know, placeos and it's interesting that when placeos and it's interesting that when placeos and it's interesting that when you talked to me briefly about the you talked to me briefly about the you talked to me briefly about the Chambermaid study, this was actually a Chambermaid study, this was actually a Chambermaid study, this was actually a noibo study, which is important in its noibo study, which is important in its noibo study, which is important in its own right. Now people know placeos, you own right. Now people know placeos, you own right. Now people know placeos, you take something that's nothing to lead to take something that's nothing to lead to take something that's nothing to lead to a positive um response. A noibo, you a positive um response. A noibo, you a positive um response. A noibo, you take real medication and you believe take real medication and you believe take real medication and you believe it's not effective and it wipes out the it's not effective and it wipes out the it's not effective and it wipes out the effect. effect. effect. >> So explain that in the context of the >> So explain that in the context of the >> So explain that in the context of the Chambermaid study. They're not taking a Chambermaid study. They're not taking a Chambermaid study. They're not taking a medication. medication. medication. >> No, no, no, no. Because people are >> No, no, no, no. Because people are >> No, no, no, no. Because people are exercising, but they're not getting any exercising, but they're not getting any exercising, but they're not getting any of the benefits of exercise because they of the benefits of exercise because they of the benefits of exercise because they don't realize they're exercising. don't realize they're exercising. don't realize they're exercising. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, we say all of these things that are >> So, we say all of these things that are >> So, we say all of these things that are good for you, you know, um many if not good for you, you know, um many if not good for you, you know, um many if not all are good for you if you believe all are good for you if you believe all are good for you if you believe they're good for you. That element of they're good for you. That element of they're good for you. That element of belief is not inconsequential in any of belief is not inconsequential in any of belief is not inconsequential in any of these circumstances, you know. So there these circumstances, you know. So there these circumstances, you know. So there was a study uh with Ipiaac. So um I was a study uh with Ipiaac. So um I was a study uh with Ipiaac. So um I don't remember who did this but you know don't remember who did this but you know don't remember who did this but you know so Ipiac is what you take to make you so Ipiac is what you take to make you so Ipiac is what you take to make you vomit in case you've accidentally or on vomit in case you've accidentally or on vomit in case you've accidentally or on purpose ingested poison. All right. So purpose ingested poison. All right. So purpose ingested poison. All right. So whoever this was took epiac with people whoever this was took epiac with people whoever this was took epiac with people who are having trouble doing too much who are having trouble doing too much who are having trouble doing too much vomiting and they're given the epic and vomiting and they're given the epic and vomiting and they're given the epic and they're told it'll stop the vomiting and they're told it'll stop the vomiting and they're told it'll stop the vomiting and you know what happens? It stops the you know what happens? It stops the you know what happens? It stops the vomiting. Um people who are rubbed with vomiting. Um people who are rubbed with vomiting. Um people who are rubbed with poison ivy who believe it's not poison poison ivy who believe it's not poison poison ivy who believe it's not poison ivy or rubbed with another leaf that ivy or rubbed with another leaf that ivy or rubbed with another leaf that they believe is poison ivy that isn't they believe is poison ivy that isn't they believe is poison ivy that isn't poison ivy you know get the rash uh when poison ivy you know get the rash uh when poison ivy you know get the rash uh when they believe um I I spoke with Camila they believe um I I spoke with Camila they believe um I I spoke with Camila Nord this neuroscientist from Cambridge Nord this neuroscientist from Cambridge Nord this neuroscientist from Cambridge University and Camila basically shares University and Camila basically shares University and Camila basically shares some research showing that in some research showing that in some research showing that in psychedelic trials some of them when psychedelic trials some of them when psychedelic trials some of them when you're given a placebo and you think you're given a placebo and you think you're given a placebo and you think you're taking a psychedelic, but you're you're taking a psychedelic, but you're you're taking a psychedelic, but you're not you you still hallucinate. not you you still hallucinate. not you you still hallucinate. >> You know, in medicine, and I think with >> You know, in medicine, and I think with >> You know, in medicine, and I think with the public, we've used the term before, the public, we've used the term before, the public, we've used the term before, oh, it's just a placebo effect, right? oh, it's just a placebo effect, right? oh, it's just a placebo effect, right? So, So, So, >> just it's got to change. >> just it's got to change. >> just it's got to change. >> Exactly. As in underplaying the value. >> Exactly. As in underplaying the value. >> Exactly. As in underplaying the value. Um, you mentioned vision before. People Um, you mentioned vision before. People Um, you mentioned vision before. People think, oh, you know, vision static. It think, oh, you know, vision static. It think, oh, you know, vision static. It is what it is, right? But, is what it is, right? But, is what it is, right? But, >> no, just think about it. how mindless it >> no, just think about it. how mindless it >> no, just think about it. how mindless it is that you go to the doctor, you're is that you go to the doctor, you're is that you go to the doctor, you're shown this uh Snelling eye chart with shown this uh Snelling eye chart with shown this uh Snelling eye chart with letters out of context in black and letters out of context in black and letters out of context in black and white, and then you're given a number to white, and then you're given a number to white, and then you're given a number to tell you how well you see. I you know, I tell you how well you see. I you know, I tell you how well you see. I you know, I don't know about you, but if I'm hungry, don't know about you, but if I'm hungry, don't know about you, but if I'm hungry, I see that restaurant sign much further I see that restaurant sign much further I see that restaurant sign much further away than if I'm hungry. I see things in away than if I'm hungry. I see things in away than if I'm hungry. I see things in color different from black and white. I color different from black and white. I color different from black and white. I see things that are meaningful see things that are meaningful see things that are meaningful differently from things that are differently from things that are differently from things that are meaningless. And more important is that meaningless. And more important is that meaningless. And more important is that for me personally, my vision I believe for me personally, my vision I believe for me personally, my vision I believe is better from 11 to 1 than it is is better from 11 to 1 than it is is better from 11 to 1 than it is earlier or later in the day. Things earlier or later in the day. Things earlier or later in the day. Things vary. Your vision varies. Now, if you vary. Your vision varies. Now, if you vary. Your vision varies. Now, if you knew that um you started to have trouble knew that um you started to have trouble knew that um you started to have trouble seeing around 4 in the afternoon, rather seeing around 4 in the afternoon, rather seeing around 4 in the afternoon, rather than get eyeglasses that you're going to than get eyeglasses that you're going to than get eyeglasses that you're going to wear constantly, you had um an energy wear constantly, you had um an energy wear constantly, you had um an energy bar. and the energy bars. This gets me bar. and the energy bars. This gets me bar. and the energy bars. This gets me crazy also. It's a candy bar. We call it crazy also. It's a candy bar. We call it crazy also. It's a candy bar. We call it an energy bar and then it has very an energy bar and then it has very an energy bar and then it has very positive effects. You know, I was laugh positive effects. You know, I was laugh positive effects. You know, I was laugh um you take a cake and you put it in a um you take a cake and you put it in a um you take a cake and you put it in a muffin tin. So now you have muffins. And muffin tin. So now you have muffins. And muffin tin. So now you have muffins. And if you ask people um is this muffin if you ask people um is this muffin if you ask people um is this muffin healthier than the same amount of cake healthier than the same amount of cake healthier than the same amount of cake and you the muffin is healthier because and you the muffin is healthier because and you the muffin is healthier because you know changing the name is very you know changing the name is very you know changing the name is very important. Okay. Be that as it may. Um important. Okay. Be that as it may. Um important. Okay. Be that as it may. Um yeah, so our vision varies. Now what yeah, so our vision varies. Now what yeah, so our vision varies. Now what happens is that you're given this happens is that you're given this happens is that you're given this number, you then get eyeglasses and you number, you then get eyeglasses and you number, you then get eyeglasses and you train your body not to be able to see. train your body not to be able to see. train your body not to be able to see. >> To my mind, it would be like, you know, >> To my mind, it would be like, you know, >> To my mind, it would be like, you know, it's fine if you're having trouble going it's fine if you're having trouble going it's fine if you're having trouble going to the bathroom, take a laxative. But if to the bathroom, take a laxative. But if to the bathroom, take a laxative. But if you take a laxative every day, you're you take a laxative every day, you're you take a laxative every day, you're teaching your body to rely on the teaching your body to rely on the teaching your body to rely on the laxative. And I think that's the laxative. And I think that's the laxative. And I think that's the mistake. mistake. mistake. >> Yeah. I'm the stuff about eyes and um if >> Yeah. I'm the stuff about eyes and um if >> Yeah. I'm the stuff about eyes and um if it feels like you've forgotten how to it feels like you've forgotten how to it feels like you've forgotten how to feel joy, like you're surviving and not feel joy, like you're surviving and not feel joy, like you're surviving and not really living, I've created a free guide really living, I've created a free guide really living, I've created a free guide to help you. Because happiness isn't to help you. Because happiness isn't to help you. Because happiness isn't something you chase, it's something you something you chase, it's something you something you chase, it's something you train your brain to feel. I've created a train your brain to feel. I've created a train your brain to feel. I've created a free guide, the happiness prescription, free guide, the happiness prescription, free guide, the happiness prescription, five daily rituals that rewire your five daily rituals that rewire your five daily rituals that rewire your brain for joy. These are the exact brain for joy. These are the exact brain for joy. These are the exact rituals I've used with many of my rituals I've used with many of my rituals I've used with many of my patients to help them feel alive again, patients to help them feel alive again, patients to help them feel alive again, even in the middle of stress, fatigue, even in the middle of stress, fatigue, even in the middle of stress, fatigue, or loss. To get your free guide now, or loss. To get your free guide now, or loss. To get your free guide now, click the first link in the description click the first link in the description click the first link in the description box below or scan the QR code on screen. box below or scan the QR code on screen. box below or scan the QR code on screen. Vision is is super fascinating. Okay. I Vision is is super fascinating. Okay. I Vision is is super fascinating. Okay. I I think I read it in your book this I think I read it in your book this I think I read it in your book this morning. this whole concept of how you morning. this whole concept of how you morning. this whole concept of how you look at that Snell and chart determines look at that Snell and chart determines look at that Snell and chart determines its outcome as well. its outcome as well. its outcome as well. >> Yes. Well, so so for me, I know I'm >> Yes. Well, so so for me, I know I'm >> Yes. Well, so so for me, I know I'm bizarre when I, you know, before I did bizarre when I, you know, before I did bizarre when I, you know, before I did that study, I'm u being my eyes are that study, I'm u being my eyes are that study, I'm u being my eyes are being examined. I'm looking at the being examined. I'm looking at the being examined. I'm looking at the charts. I said, "Wait a second." You charts. I said, "Wait a second." You charts. I said, "Wait a second." You know, you're creating in me the know, you're creating in me the know, you're creating in me the expectation that soon I'm not going to expectation that soon I'm not going to expectation that soon I'm not going to be able to see because these letters be able to see because these letters be able to see because these letters keep getting smaller. keep getting smaller. keep getting smaller. >> Yeah. So, you start with something you >> Yeah. So, you start with something you >> Yeah. So, you start with something you can do and then you go, "Oh, we're about can do and then you go, "Oh, we're about can do and then you go, "Oh, we're about to catch you where you can't see." to catch you where you can't see." to catch you where you can't see." >> Exactly. So what we did is a study where >> Exactly. So what we did is a study where >> Exactly. So what we did is a study where we reversed it. It starts with small we reversed it. It starts with small we reversed it. It starts with small letters gets larger and larger creating letters gets larger and larger creating letters gets larger and larger creating the expectation that soon you would be the expectation that soon you would be the expectation that soon you would be able to see and people can see what they able to see and people can see what they able to see and people can see what they couldn't see before. Now most of the couldn't see before. Now most of the couldn't see before. Now most of the time when you're doing the snowing eye time when you're doing the snowing eye time when you're doing the snowing eye chart it's around 2/ird of the way down chart it's around 2/ird of the way down chart it's around 2/ird of the way down that you start to have trouble most that you start to have trouble most that you start to have trouble most people. So what we did was we started people. So what we did was we started people. So what we did was we started the eye chart a third of the way smaller the eye chart a third of the way smaller the eye chart a third of the way smaller letters. So now 2/3 of the way are much letters. So now 2/3 of the way are much letters. So now 2/3 of the way are much smaller letters. And again, you can see smaller letters. And again, you can see smaller letters. And again, you can see what you couldn't see before. what you couldn't see before. what you couldn't see before. >> Can I just pause you there? 2/3, right? >> Can I just pause you there? 2/3, right? >> Can I just pause you there? 2/3, right? 2/3 comes up in the Snellon shot. 2/3 2/3 comes up in the Snellon shot. 2/3 2/3 comes up in the Snellon shot. 2/3 came in in the fatigue study as well. came in in the fatigue study as well. came in in the fatigue study as well. What is going on with the human brain? What is going on with the human brain? What is going on with the human brain? >> I don't understand. I had this thing for >> I don't understand. I had this thing for >> I don't understand. I had this thing for 2/3 and for it seems. 2/3 and for it seems. 2/3 and for it seems. >> No, but I I this stuff about vision. >> No, but I I this stuff about vision. >> No, but I I this stuff about vision. This literally played out for me a This literally played out for me a This literally played out for me a couple of months ago, right? So, um, I couple of months ago, right? So, um, I couple of months ago, right? So, um, I I'd been thinking about eye, you know, I'd been thinking about eye, you know, I'd been thinking about eye, you know, glasses and contact lenses, thinking, glasses and contact lenses, thinking, glasses and contact lenses, thinking, okay, this is quite a novel concept when okay, this is quite a novel concept when okay, this is quite a novel concept when it comes to, you know, the human it comes to, you know, the human it comes to, you know, the human experience to have these things on my experience to have these things on my experience to have these things on my eyes so that I can see. And if you think eyes so that I can see. And if you think eyes so that I can see. And if you think about this in an evolutionary context, about this in an evolutionary context, about this in an evolutionary context, of course, people didn't have contact of course, people didn't have contact of course, people didn't have contact lenses um, and glasses. And there's many lenses um, and glasses. And there's many lenses um, and glasses. And there's many reasons for that. The need for distant reasons for that. The need for distant reasons for that. The need for distant vision out in the planes, whatever it vision out in the planes, whatever it vision out in the planes, whatever it might be, okay, there's many reasons for might be, okay, there's many reasons for might be, okay, there's many reasons for that. But I got my I I've been looking that. But I got my I I've been looking that. But I got my I I've been looking into how one can reverse myopia into how one can reverse myopia into how one can reverse myopia naturally and and it looks so there's naturally and and it looks so there's naturally and and it looks so there's quite a lot of people who are doing quite a lot of people who are doing quite a lot of people who are doing this. I'm you know I may bring someone this. I'm you know I may bring someone this. I'm you know I may bring someone on the podcast at some point to talk on the podcast at some point to talk on the podcast at some point to talk about this but I'm currently looking at about this but I'm currently looking at about this but I'm currently looking at it and and I'm I'm fascinated by it and it and and I'm I'm fascinated by it and it and and I'm I'm fascinated by it and one of the things they talk about is one of the things they talk about is one of the things they talk about is that your vision is different at that your vision is different at that your vision is different at different parts of the day. If you're different parts of the day. If you're different parts of the day. If you're tired your vision isn't as good if it's tired your vision isn't as good if it's tired your vision isn't as good if it's dark. dark. dark. >> So many years ago when we wrote this but >> So many years ago when we wrote this but >> So many years ago when we wrote this but sad to me is it takes so long. One would sad to me is it takes so long. One would sad to me is it takes so long. One would think since all of this work is in the think since all of this work is in the think since all of this work is in the service of improving our health, our service of improving our health, our service of improving our health, our well-being, making us happier, you know, well-being, making us happier, you know, well-being, making us happier, you know, and so on that once people hear about and so on that once people hear about and so on that once people hear about it, it would just go like wildfire, it, it would just go like wildfire, it, it would just go like wildfire, right? You know, I mean, people still right? You know, I mean, people still right? You know, I mean, people still today are just learning about, let's today are just learning about, let's today are just learning about, let's say, the counterclockwise study. say, the counterclockwise study. say, the counterclockwise study. >> You know, it was how many years ago? 40 >> You know, it was how many years ago? 40 >> You know, it was how many years ago? 40 years ago. years ago. years ago. >> Yeah. That's how slow it is. But but I >> Yeah. That's how slow it is. But but I >> Yeah. That's how slow it is. But but I but Ellen, I literally had my eyes but Ellen, I literally had my eyes but Ellen, I literally had my eyes checked at 5:00 p.m. and I was a bit checked at 5:00 p.m. and I was a bit checked at 5:00 p.m. and I was a bit jetlagged. I think I just come back from jetlagged. I think I just come back from jetlagged. I think I just come back from America and they wanted to put my power America and they wanted to put my power America and they wanted to put my power up with my glasses and I said, "Hey, up with my glasses and I said, "Hey, up with my glasses and I said, "Hey, wait a minute." I said, "Listen, wait a minute." I said, "Listen, wait a minute." I said, "Listen, >> um, would you mind if I come back in two >> um, would you mind if I come back in two >> um, would you mind if I come back in two weeks and I'll book a morning weeks and I'll book a morning weeks and I'll book a morning appointment?" And I paid for another appointment?" And I paid for another appointment?" And I paid for another appointment appointment appointment and totally different. I didn't even my and totally different. I didn't even my and totally different. I didn't even my power could go down. And I was like, how power could go down. And I was like, how power could go down. And I was like, how many people many people many people >> are on a prescription that is given >> are on a prescription that is given >> are on a prescription that is given based upon the time of day? And that based upon the time of day? And that based upon the time of day? And that >> I think >> I think >> I think >> it's mindboggling. Yeah. It's >> it's mindboggling. Yeah. It's >> it's mindboggling. Yeah. It's mindboggling. mindboggling. mindboggling. >> Yeah. You know, so I had this I used to >> Yeah. You know, so I had this I used to >> Yeah. You know, so I had this I used to wear a contact lens in one eye um for wear a contact lens in one eye um for wear a contact lens in one eye um for one eye for distance, one eye for one eye for distance, one eye for one eye for distance, one eye for reading and I get home from uh school reading and I get home from uh school reading and I get home from uh school and in the evening I'm trying to take and in the evening I'm trying to take and in the evening I'm trying to take the lens out. I'm killing myself. How the lens out. I'm killing myself. How the lens out. I'm killing myself. How could get the stupid thing? I couldn't could get the stupid thing? I couldn't could get the stupid thing? I couldn't get it out. Then eventually I realized I get it out. Then eventually I realized I get it out. Then eventually I realized I never put it in and I my vision was fine never put it in and I my vision was fine never put it in and I my vision was fine all day. Yeah. And that gave rise to all day. Yeah. And that gave rise to all day. Yeah. And that gave rise to another set of studies. another set of studies. another set of studies. >> The power of our beliefs. >> The power of our beliefs. >> The power of our beliefs. >> But starting with the anecdote. >> But starting with the anecdote. >> But starting with the anecdote. >> Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Before we finish, >> Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Before we finish, >> Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Before we finish, I want to bring up something you said I want to bring up something you said I want to bring up something you said before that surprised me in the context before that surprised me in the context before that surprised me in the context of your work. Okay. So, there was a of your work. Okay. So, there was a of your work. Okay. So, there was a moment where you lost your train of moment where you lost your train of moment where you lost your train of thought and you said, "Excuse me, I'm thought and you said, "Excuse me, I'm thought and you said, "Excuse me, I'm having a senior moment." Right. having a senior moment." Right. having a senior moment." Right. >> I was blogging. Yeah, I know you were >> I was blogging. Yeah, I know you were >> I was blogging. Yeah, I know you were joking. joking. joking. >> But now the reason I said that was only >> But now the reason I said that was only >> But now the reason I said that was only because the other day um I thought I was because the other day um I thought I was because the other day um I thought I was so clever when I had said to somebody, so clever when I had said to somebody, so clever when I had said to somebody, I'm having a junior moment. I'm having a junior moment. I'm having a junior moment. >> No, the reason I I'm bringing up to >> No, the reason I I'm bringing up to >> No, the reason I I'm bringing up to illustrate a really important point from illustrate a really important point from illustrate a really important point from your work, which is the importance of your work, which is the importance of your work, which is the importance of our perceptions. And there's a beautiful our perceptions. And there's a beautiful our perceptions. And there's a beautiful section in the book where you you write section in the book where you you write section in the book where you you write you here I've underlined it. It's you here I've underlined it. It's you here I've underlined it. It's interesting to ask how much of the interesting to ask how much of the interesting to ask how much of the presumed memory loss attributed to the presumed memory loss attributed to the presumed memory loss attributed to the old is is a result of this difference in old is is a result of this difference in old is is a result of this difference in perspective, right? And you know that's perspective, right? And you know that's perspective, right? And you know that's >> not just perspective. Now I think that >> not just perspective. Now I think that >> not just perspective. Now I think that much of the time life changes as you get much of the time life changes as you get much of the time life changes as you get older. Your values change. So when I was older. Your values change. So when I was older. Your values change. So when I was young um as an upand cominging whatever young um as an upand cominging whatever young um as an upand cominging whatever and you introduced me to some of your and you introduced me to some of your and you introduced me to some of your friends, I'd make sure I knew their friends, I'd make sure I knew their friends, I'd make sure I knew their names. At this point in my life, names. At this point in my life, names. At this point in my life, frankly, I don't care. So, you introduce frankly, I don't care. So, you introduce frankly, I don't care. So, you introduce me to your friends names and I'm not me to your friends names and I'm not me to your friends names and I'm not going to know them. Now, later when we going to know them. Now, later when we going to know them. Now, later when we discover that I don't know your friend's discover that I don't know your friend's discover that I don't know your friend's name, the mistake people often make is name, the mistake people often make is name, the mistake people often make is to see that they've forgotten. I didn't to see that they've forgotten. I didn't to see that they've forgotten. I didn't forget because I didn't learn it in the forget because I didn't learn it in the forget because I didn't learn it in the first place. And also, you know what first place. And also, you know what first place. And also, you know what people, I think, need to pay attention people, I think, need to pay attention people, I think, need to pay attention to is imagine how awful life would be if to is imagine how awful life would be if to is imagine how awful life would be if we remembered everything. we remembered everything. we remembered everything. >> Yeah. It'd be hard to get, you know, >> Yeah. It'd be hard to get, you know, >> Yeah. It'd be hard to get, you know, forgetting is is an advantage. forgetting is is an advantage. forgetting is is an advantage. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and um most of uh what we need to >> Um and um most of uh what we need to >> Um and um most of uh what we need to remember will remember. remember will remember. remember will remember. >> Yes. And what I was getting to with um >> Yes. And what I was getting to with um >> Yes. And what I was getting to with um highlighting the fact that you called it highlighting the fact that you called it highlighting the fact that you called it a senior moment, right, is this whole a senior moment, right, is this whole a senior moment, right, is this whole idea that I've also had mind blanks when idea that I've also had mind blanks when idea that I've also had mind blanks when I'm doing this podcast before, right? I'm doing this podcast before, right? I'm doing this podcast before, right? But because I'm at a different age to But because I'm at a different age to But because I'm at a different age to you, you, you, >> um I'm not going to call it a senior >> um I'm not going to call it a senior >> um I'm not going to call it a senior moment, right? moment, right? moment, right? >> No. No. Okay. So, it's cute. But let me >> No. No. Okay. So, it's cute. But let me >> No. No. Okay. So, it's cute. But let me tell you what, before I lecture my tell you what, before I lecture my tell you what, before I lecture my health class about aging, um I ask them health class about aging, um I ask them health class about aging, um I ask them a question. I say, "Okay, what was the a question. I say, "Okay, what was the a question. I say, "Okay, what was the last these are Harvard students, this is last these are Harvard students, this is last these are Harvard students, this is the best of the best, right? Um I say, the best of the best, right? Um I say, the best of the best, right? Um I say, "What was the last thing I said on "What was the last thing I said on "What was the last thing I said on Thursday?" So, our class meets Tuesday Thursday?" So, our class meets Tuesday Thursday?" So, our class meets Tuesday and Thursday. So, this is Tuesday. What and Thursday. So, this is Tuesday. What and Thursday. So, this is Tuesday. What was the last thing I said on Thursday? was the last thing I said on Thursday? was the last thing I said on Thursday? Nobody remembers. And I go, "Ah, you Nobody remembers. And I go, "Ah, you Nobody remembers. And I go, "Ah, you know, you all better check to see know, you all better check to see know, you all better check to see whether you're suffering from dementia." whether you're suffering from dementia." whether you're suffering from dementia." You know, that um young people are not You know, that um young people are not You know, that um young people are not infrequently forgetful. The difference infrequently forgetful. The difference infrequently forgetful. The difference is uh they're fine with that. They don't is uh they're fine with that. They don't is uh they're fine with that. They don't see it as the beginning of some see it as the beginning of some see it as the beginning of some impending terrible diagnosis. impending terrible diagnosis. impending terrible diagnosis. >> Yeah. And and and I think it's so >> Yeah. And and and I think it's so >> Yeah. And and and I think it's so important that this idea that if our important that this idea that if our important that this idea that if our >> expectation >> expectation >> expectation starts to impact our physiology, we've starts to impact our physiology, we've starts to impact our physiology, we've got to be very careful about what we got to be very careful about what we got to be very careful about what we think as we get older. We have to change think as we get older. We have to change think as we get older. We have to change this perception that old people are this perception that old people are this perception that old people are frail and they can't do much and they frail and they can't do much and they frail and they can't do much and they need help, right? We need to change need help, right? We need to change need help, right? We need to change that. And there's again there's quite a that. And there's again there's quite a that. And there's again there's quite a provocative section um in that section provocative section um in that section provocative section um in that section in your book where you talk about this in your book where you talk about this in your book where you talk about this idea that someone of your age and I I idea that someone of your age and I I idea that someone of your age and I I certainly won't ask you how old you are. certainly won't ask you how old you are. certainly won't ask you how old you are. I'm 77. I'm 77. I'm 77. >> You're 77. Okay. So, someone of your age >> You're 77. Okay. So, someone of your age >> You're 77. Okay. So, someone of your age wouldn't typically be seen in miniskirts wouldn't typically be seen in miniskirts wouldn't typically be seen in miniskirts or have minikrts marketed to them, or have minikrts marketed to them, or have minikrts marketed to them, right? And I I really liked the way you right? And I I really liked the way you right? And I I really liked the way you put that because it basically the put that because it basically the put that because it basically the cultural norm is a 77y old lady probably cultural norm is a 77y old lady probably cultural norm is a 77y old lady probably shouldn't be in a minikrt. It's not shouldn't be in a minikrt. It's not shouldn't be in a minikrt. It's not appropriate for a woman of that age. But appropriate for a woman of that age. But appropriate for a woman of that age. But maybe it is. Maybe if you don't maybe it is. Maybe if you don't maybe it is. Maybe if you don't subscribe to that and you go, "No, I'm subscribe to that and you go, "No, I'm subscribe to that and you go, "No, I'm going to dress like I was in my 20s or going to dress like I was in my 20s or going to dress like I was in my 20s or 30s." Well, maybe that's going to 30s." Well, maybe that's going to 30s." Well, maybe that's going to actually keep you younger. actually keep you younger. actually keep you younger. >> Yes. Yeah. The um the point of that >> Yes. Yeah. The um the point of that >> Yes. Yeah. The um the point of that particular research was to show that particular research was to show that particular research was to show that there are age related cues all around us there are age related cues all around us there are age related cues all around us um that unbeknownst to us are um that unbeknownst to us are um that unbeknownst to us are determining um our longevity, our health determining um our longevity, our health determining um our longevity, our health and and so on. So there what we did was and and so on. So there what we did was and and so on. So there what we did was compare people whose jobs require that compare people whose jobs require that compare people whose jobs require that they be in uniform. So if you're in a they be in uniform. So if you're in a they be in uniform. So if you're in a uniform uh and you're 25 and you're uniform uh and you're 25 and you're uniform uh and you're 25 and you're wearing the same basic uniform, a wearing the same basic uniform, a wearing the same basic uniform, a different version of it, but um uh for different version of it, but um uh for different version of it, but um uh for the next 40 years, you're missing an age the next 40 years, you're missing an age the next 40 years, you're missing an age related queue and those people do related queue and those people do related queue and those people do better. better. better. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because they don't have that age >> Because they don't have that age >> Because they don't have that age related. And we see, you know, here, and related. And we see, you know, here, and related. And we see, you know, here, and I'm sure it's the same in the US, we I'm sure it's the same in the US, we I'm sure it's the same in the US, we have, you know, near uh residential have, you know, near uh residential have, you know, near uh residential homes, there are signs on the roads with homes, there are signs on the roads with homes, there are signs on the roads with an elderly couple, you know, hunched an elderly couple, you know, hunched an elderly couple, you know, hunched over with a walking stick saying be over with a walking stick saying be over with a walking stick saying be careful. And and again, that's a that's careful. And and again, that's a that's careful. And and again, that's a that's a an age related cue that on the face of a an age related cue that on the face of a an age related cue that on the face of it is there for for a reason, so people it is there for for a reason, so people it is there for for a reason, so people can pay attention and be considerate, can pay attention and be considerate, can pay attention and be considerate, right? right? right? >> But there's also a negative consequence >> But there's also a negative consequence >> But there's also a negative consequence of that or a potentially negative of that or a potentially negative of that or a potentially negative consequence. Although there's one thing consequence. Although there's one thing consequence. Although there's one thing that older people do, which is in for that older people do, which is in for that older people do, which is in for all other groups, there's an ingroup all other groups, there's an ingroup all other groups, there's an ingroup bias. bias. bias. Everybody prefers their own to people Everybody prefers their own to people Everybody prefers their own to people who are different, except the elderly. I who are different, except the elderly. I who are different, except the elderly. I hate that word now that I'm so old, but hate that word now that I'm so old, but hate that word now that I'm so old, but uh so let me give an example. Uh when my uh so let me give an example. Uh when my uh so let me give an example. Uh when my father was alive, I'm picking him up at father was alive, I'm picking him up at father was alive, I'm picking him up at the airport. He's now uh at that point, the airport. He's now uh at that point, the airport. He's now uh at that point, I think he was 88. Um, and I said, "Dad, I think he was 88. Um, and I said, "Dad, I think he was 88. Um, and I said, "Dad, how was the flight?" And he said, "It how was the flight?" And he said, "It how was the flight?" And he said, "It was okay, but there were too many old was okay, but there were too many old was okay, but there were too many old people on the plane." people on the plane." people on the plane." >> One of the most important pillars for >> One of the most important pillars for >> One of the most important pillars for our health is, of course, nutrition. But our health is, of course, nutrition. But our health is, of course, nutrition. But I think because of our busy, stressed I think because of our busy, stressed I think because of our busy, stressed out lives, so many people are struggling out lives, so many people are struggling out lives, so many people are struggling despite their best intentions. So many despite their best intentions. So many despite their best intentions. So many patients over the years have told me patients over the years have told me patients over the years have told me that they know what they should be that they know what they should be that they know what they should be doing, but they're struggling to doing, but they're struggling to doing, but they're struggling to actually do it. And that's why I'm a fan actually do it. And that's why I'm a fan actually do it. And that's why I'm a fan of AG1. AG1 is a daily health trick that of AG1. AG1 is a daily health trick that of AG1. AG1 is a daily health trick that contains over 70 vitamins, minerals, and contains over 70 vitamins, minerals, and contains over 70 vitamins, minerals, and other ingredients that designed to make other ingredients that designed to make other ingredients that designed to make nutrition really easy. It's been in my nutrition really easy. It's been in my nutrition really easy. It's been in my own life for over 6 years now. 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And there's research out there showing us there's research out there showing us there's research out there showing us that taking AG1 regularly can improve that taking AG1 regularly can improve that taking AG1 regularly can improve specific markers of your gut health, specific markers of your gut health, specific markers of your gut health, which is really good for your immune which is really good for your immune which is really good for your immune health. So, if you're looking to upgrade health. So, if you're looking to upgrade health. So, if you're looking to upgrade your own nutrition in a simple, tasty, your own nutrition in a simple, tasty, your own nutrition in a simple, tasty, and convenient way, try AG1. To get a and convenient way, try AG1. To get a and convenient way, try AG1. To get a free bottle of vitamin D and five free free bottle of vitamin D and five free free bottle of vitamin D and five free travel pads, go to travel pads, go to travel pads, go to drinkagg.com/livemore. distancing himself from the group. Um distancing himself from the group. Um and you know which is a good thing in and you know which is a good thing in and you know which is a good thing in this context because we have the view of this context because we have the view of this context because we have the view of old as uh only representing old as uh only representing old as uh only representing >> decrim which is sad because you know you >> decrim which is sad because you know you >> decrim which is sad because you know you live your life the right way it just live your life the right way it just live your life the right way it just keeps getting better and better and um keeps getting better and better and um keeps getting better and better and um you know it's a shame for people to you know it's a shame for people to you know it's a shame for people to dread that their future and they're not dread that their future and they're not dread that their future and they're not dreading old age they're dreading pain dreading old age they're dreading pain dreading old age they're dreading pain um in fact I think most of the fear of um in fact I think most of the fear of um in fact I think most of the fear of death has nothing to do with death it death has nothing to do with death it death has nothing to do with death it has to do with uh disease and all sorts has to do with uh disease and all sorts has to do with uh disease and all sorts of things that you know one can live a of things that you know one can live a of things that you know one can live a very long life without um illness. very long life without um illness. very long life without um illness. >> Now that you are 77, >> Now that you are 77, >> Now that you are 77, how do you think about death? how do you think about death? how do you think about death? >> Um I don't you know I don't tend to >> Um I don't you know I don't tend to >> Um I don't you know I don't tend to think about death. I'm too busy living. think about death. I'm too busy living. think about death. I'm too busy living. Um Um Um >> are you scared of death? >> are you scared of death? >> are you scared of death? >> No. No. Um you know my picture of death >> No. No. Um you know my picture of death >> No. No. Um you know my picture of death is you know u going to sleep. Well, is you know u going to sleep. Well, is you know u going to sleep. Well, remember, you know, I've been studying remember, you know, I've been studying remember, you know, I've been studying um old age since I was very young and I um old age since I was very young and I um old age since I was very young and I see all these and I know lots of people see all these and I know lots of people see all these and I know lots of people now, not lots, but several people now now, not lots, but several people now now, not lots, but several people now who are over a hundred and they don't who are over a hundred and they don't who are over a hundred and they don't seem to be afraid of death. Uh I ended seem to be afraid of death. Uh I ended seem to be afraid of death. Uh I ended my counterclockwise book with a story my counterclockwise book with a story my counterclockwise book with a story where I'm I'm talking to one of these where I'm I'm talking to one of these where I'm I'm talking to one of these older friends. She was 90s something and older friends. She was 90s something and older friends. She was 90s something and she said, "You know, Ellen, I'm not she said, "You know, Ellen, I'm not she said, "You know, Ellen, I'm not afraid of dying, but living is sure your afraid of dying, but living is sure your afraid of dying, but living is sure your fun." And I think that represents my own fun." And I think that represents my own fun." And I think that represents my own view. view. view. >> Ellen, it's been such a joy uh talking >> Ellen, it's been such a joy uh talking >> Ellen, it's been such a joy uh talking to you. I I I've been looking at your to you. I I I've been looking at your to you. I I I've been looking at your work and your research for years. I work and your research for years. I work and your research for years. I think it's completely gamechanging. I I think it's completely gamechanging. I I think it's completely gamechanging. I I really hope really hope really hope the practical the practical the practical implications of your work get realized implications of your work get realized implications of your work get realized much quicker than they should have much quicker than they should have much quicker than they should have already been. Right. So, you know, the already been. Right. So, you know, the already been. Right. So, you know, the counter clockwise study, as you say, was counter clockwise study, as you say, was counter clockwise study, as you say, was done several decades ago. We're still done several decades ago. We're still done several decades ago. We're still not implementing that into practice. Um, not implementing that into practice. Um, not implementing that into practice. Um, right at the end of this conversation, right at the end of this conversation, right at the end of this conversation, Ellen, what's the takeaway for someone? Ellen, what's the takeaway for someone? Ellen, what's the takeaway for someone? For someone who's heard everything For someone who's heard everything For someone who's heard everything you've had to say, for someone who's you've had to say, for someone who's you've had to say, for someone who's going to go out and buy your book and going to go out and buy your book and going to go out and buy your book and they're thinking, "Okay, this is really they're thinking, "Okay, this is really they're thinking, "Okay, this is really fascinating. I don't want to live by fascinating. I don't want to live by fascinating. I don't want to live by mindless rules. Uh, I've got to start to mindless rules. Uh, I've got to start to mindless rules. Uh, I've got to start to know that I don't know, but how can I know that I don't know, but how can I know that I don't know, but how can I practically start doing that in my life practically start doing that in my life practically start doing that in my life today?" What would you say to them? today?" What would you say to them? today?" What would you say to them? >> Well, you know, we go back to where we >> Well, you know, we go back to where we >> Well, you know, we go back to where we started with this that uh realize the started with this that uh realize the started with this that uh realize the power and uncertainty and people are power and uncertainty and people are power and uncertainty and people are afraid of not knowing because they think afraid of not knowing because they think afraid of not knowing because they think they're supposed to know. So, let me be they're supposed to know. So, let me be they're supposed to know. So, let me be here to tell everybody nobody knows. And here to tell everybody nobody knows. And here to tell everybody nobody knows. And when you make um uh a universal when you make um uh a universal when you make um uh a universal attribution for not knowing, it's not attribution for not knowing, it's not attribution for not knowing, it's not that I don't know, nobody can know. Uh that I don't know, nobody can know. Uh that I don't know, nobody can know. Uh then you sit up and you pay attention. then you sit up and you pay attention. then you sit up and you pay attention. And if you in that state, you'll see And if you in that state, you'll see And if you in that state, you'll see that it's energy beginning. It's what that it's energy beginning. It's what that it's energy beginning. It's what you're doing when you're having your you're doing when you're having your you're doing when you're having your best time. And the way to do that is you best time. And the way to do that is you best time. And the way to do that is you just accept uncertainty. Ask yourself just accept uncertainty. Ask yourself just accept uncertainty. Ask yourself for anything you think you know how it for anything you think you know how it for anything you think you know how it could be otherwise. Anytime you're asked could be otherwise. Anytime you're asked could be otherwise. Anytime you're asked a question, give several explanations a question, give several explanations a question, give several explanations for it or just start noticing. And you for it or just start noticing. And you for it or just start noticing. And you notice new things about the things you notice new things about the things you notice new things about the things you thought you knew, you come to see you thought you knew, you come to see you thought you knew, you come to see you didn't know them as well as you thought didn't know them as well as you thought didn't know them as well as you thought you did. And your attention naturally you did. And your attention naturally you did. And your attention naturally goes there. But the the larger reason is goes there. But the the larger reason is goes there. But the the larger reason is that right now so many people are sealed that right now so many people are sealed that right now so many people are sealed in unlived lives um and um stressed um in unlived lives um and um stressed um in unlived lives um and um stressed um uh negative uh unhappy um making uh negative uh unhappy um making uh negative uh unhappy um making themselves sick and oblivious to it. And themselves sick and oblivious to it. And themselves sick and oblivious to it. And I think that just I think that just I think that just recognizing that there's another way of recognizing that there's another way of recognizing that there's another way of being that's readily available to all of being that's readily available to all of being that's readily available to all of us um should be worth trying it. you us um should be worth trying it. you us um should be worth trying it. you know there's by increasing your know there's by increasing your know there's by increasing your mindfulness as I studied it has nothing mindfulness as I studied it has nothing mindfulness as I studied it has nothing to do with meditation just this act of to do with meditation just this act of to do with meditation just this act of noticing noticing noticing um leads you to be happier healthier uh um leads you to be happier healthier uh um leads you to be happier healthier uh the neurons are firing other people see the neurons are firing other people see the neurons are firing other people see you as more alive um as charismatic as you as more alive um as charismatic as you as more alive um as charismatic as authentic things that we do bear the authentic things that we do bear the authentic things that we do bear the imprint of our mindfulness um it's only imprint of our mindfulness um it's only imprint of our mindfulness um it's only good good good >> in your book in between worlds you wrote >> in your book in between worlds you wrote >> in your book in between worlds you wrote that Jung concluded that there was a that Jung concluded that there was a that Jung concluded that there was a deep resilience within each of us guided deep resilience within each of us guided deep resilience within each of us guided by some locus of knowing independent of by some locus of knowing independent of by some locus of knowing independent of ego consciousness which I just found was ego consciousness which I just found was ego consciousness which I just found was just so profound and and it completely just so profound and and it completely just so profound and and it completely stopped me and made me think about so stopped me and made me think about so stopped me and made me think about so many different things. There's this, you many different things. There's this, you many different things. There's this, you know, this this kind of this deep know, this this kind of this deep know, this this kind of this deep resilience within each of us. It's, you resilience within each of us. It's, you resilience within each of us. It's, you know, what we're speaking to in essence know, what we're speaking to in essence know, what we're speaking to in essence throughout this conversation, Jim, is throughout this conversation, Jim, is throughout this conversation, Jim, is meaning, right? It's are are we living a meaning, right? It's are are we living a meaning, right? It's are are we living a life of meaning or not? And I know life of meaning or not? And I know life of meaning or not? And I know you've written a lot about meaning, but you've written a lot about meaning, but you've written a lot about meaning, but when I hear that term being used when I hear that term being used when I hear that term being used regularly these days, it usually comes regularly these days, it usually comes regularly these days, it usually comes alongside another word, purpose. So, alongside another word, purpose. So, alongside another word, purpose. So, people will say, "Yes, my life I I need people will say, "Yes, my life I I need people will say, "Yes, my life I I need more meaning and purpose." they often more meaning and purpose." they often more meaning and purpose." they often come together. come together. come together. Is there a difference in the way you see Is there a difference in the way you see Is there a difference in the way you see those words between meaning and purpose? those words between meaning and purpose? those words between meaning and purpose? And if so, what is it? And if so, what is it? And if so, what is it? Sure. I I would just say first of all, Sure. I I would just say first of all, Sure. I I would just say first of all, I'd like to underline what you just I'd like to underline what you just I'd like to underline what you just said. Most of our difficulties, our said. Most of our difficulties, our said. Most of our difficulties, our psychological difficulties, and perhaps psychological difficulties, and perhaps psychological difficulties, and perhaps some of our physical difficulties some of our physical difficulties some of our physical difficulties um are crises of meaning. And we until um are crises of meaning. And we until um are crises of meaning. And we until we begin to address it at that level, it we begin to address it at that level, it we begin to address it at that level, it will we'll stay stuck in the dilemma. will we'll stay stuck in the dilemma. will we'll stay stuck in the dilemma. You might have some symptomatic uh You might have some symptomatic uh You might have some symptomatic uh improvement but the issue doesn't improvement but the issue doesn't improvement but the issue doesn't change. Life doesn't move forward. It change. Life doesn't move forward. It change. Life doesn't move forward. It just moves in the old way in which it just moves in the old way in which it just moves in the old way in which it was moving. And yes, you know, the was moving. And yes, you know, the was moving. And yes, you know, the purpose is more ego oriented like purpose is more ego oriented like purpose is more ego oriented like there's purposeful activity in earning a there's purposeful activity in earning a there's purposeful activity in earning a living. There's a purposeful activity to living. There's a purposeful activity to living. There's a purposeful activity to look both directions before you cross look both directions before you cross look both directions before you cross the street. These are these are bound to the street. These are these are bound to the street. These are these are bound to our concept of relating to the outer our concept of relating to the outer our concept of relating to the outer realities. realities. realities. But meaning has to do with our relating But meaning has to do with our relating But meaning has to do with our relating to the inner realities. you can do all to the inner realities. you can do all to the inner realities. you can do all the right things which is what I had the right things which is what I had the right things which is what I had done conscientiously at midlife and then done conscientiously at midlife and then done conscientiously at midlife and then it's as if it's as if it's as if my assumptions or purposes uh walked my assumptions or purposes uh walked my assumptions or purposes uh walked away from me you know I could no longer away from me you know I could no longer away from me you know I could no longer see why do I want to just keep doing see why do I want to just keep doing see why do I want to just keep doing this the rest of my life you see and this the rest of my life you see and this the rest of my life you see and that was a crisis of meaning and it that was a crisis of meaning and it that was a crisis of meaning and it wasn't that it had to do necessarily wasn't that it had to do necessarily wasn't that it had to do necessarily with changing an outer relationship or with changing an outer relationship or with changing an outer relationship or changing a career or changing one's changing a career or changing one's changing a career or changing one's geography or something like that. That's geography or something like that. That's geography or something like that. That's the first thing that consciousness the first thing that consciousness the first thing that consciousness thinks about. How do I rearrange the thinks about. How do I rearrange the thinks about. How do I rearrange the furniture of my outer world? furniture of my outer world? furniture of my outer world? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's more about saying maybe there is >> It's more about saying maybe there is >> It's more about saying maybe there is something entirely different within you something entirely different within you something entirely different within you that is needing to address uh to be that is needing to address uh to be that is needing to address uh to be addressed in order to step more fully. addressed in order to step more fully. addressed in order to step more fully. Now just one other further per personal Now just one other further per personal Now just one other further per personal example. I'd experienced a lot of example. I'd experienced a lot of example. I'd experienced a lot of medical difficulties as a child. So, medical difficulties as a child. So, medical difficulties as a child. So, initially in life, I wanted to become a initially in life, I wanted to become a initially in life, I wanted to become a physician, but then when it came time to physician, but then when it came time to physician, but then when it came time to make those choices, I moved off into the make those choices, I moved off into the make those choices, I moved off into the humanities and and I had a rich humanities and and I had a rich humanities and and I had a rich experience there. I'm glad I did. At the experience there. I'm glad I did. At the experience there. I'm glad I did. At the same time, I didn't realize same time, I didn't realize same time, I didn't realize what was pulling the the switch inside what was pulling the the switch inside what was pulling the the switch inside that sent the train down this track that sent the train down this track that sent the train down this track instead of another track. And that's why instead of another track. And that's why instead of another track. And that's why in some way and I talk about this in my in some way and I talk about this in my in some way and I talk about this in my next book um I as a part of my analytic next book um I as a part of my analytic next book um I as a part of my analytic training I of course had to have training I of course had to have training I of course had to have clinical experience and so I worked for clinical experience and so I worked for clinical experience and so I worked for three years also in a psychiatric three years also in a psychiatric three years also in a psychiatric hospital state psychiatric hospital hospital state psychiatric hospital hospital state psychiatric hospital first week I was there the psychiatrist first week I was there the psychiatrist first week I was there the psychiatrist an older fellow who'd been in the an older fellow who'd been in the an older fellow who'd been in the military uh I was assigned to him to um military uh I was assigned to him to um military uh I was assigned to him to um you know is is my you know superior and you know is is my you know superior and you know is is my you know superior and and and uh guide her so forth. And he and and uh guide her so forth. And he and and uh guide her so forth. And he says, "Come with me off. I I I want to says, "Come with me off. I I I want to says, "Come with me off. I I I want to show you someone I think you would work show you someone I think you would work show you someone I think you would work very well with." So we walked into a very well with." So we walked into a very well with." So we walked into a room and there were people gathered room and there were people gathered room and there were people gathered around in a circle. And I looked in and around in a circle. And I looked in and around in a circle. And I looked in and something kicked me right in the something kicked me right in the something kicked me right in the stomach, so to speak, the diaphragm. stomach, so to speak, the diaphragm. stomach, so to speak, the diaphragm. And at the same time, I knew macho code, And at the same time, I knew macho code, And at the same time, I knew macho code, don't reveal anything, cuz I know he don't reveal anything, cuz I know he don't reveal anything, cuz I know he knew he was watching me. He had taken me knew he was watching me. He had taken me knew he was watching me. He had taken me to an autopsy. to an autopsy. to an autopsy. If he'd asked me, "Do you want to go see If he'd asked me, "Do you want to go see If he'd asked me, "Do you want to go see an autopsy?" an autopsy?" an autopsy?" I would have said yes out of duty. This I would have said yes out of duty. This I would have said yes out of duty. This is part of the learning. But inwardly, I is part of the learning. But inwardly, I is part of the learning. But inwardly, I would have said no. But it was like all would have said no. But it was like all would have said no. But it was like all of the experience I had had of suffering of the experience I had had of suffering of the experience I had had of suffering as a child as a child as a child came rushing back in that moment. And came rushing back in that moment. And came rushing back in that moment. And for some time after that, I I dreamt of for some time after that, I I dreamt of for some time after that, I I dreamt of it, of course, and I I took it into my it, of course, and I I took it into my it, of course, and I I took it into my analysis and so forth. My analyst said analysis and so forth. My analyst said analysis and so forth. My analyst said quite appropriately, quite appropriately, quite appropriately, when you face the fears from your own when you face the fears from your own when you face the fears from your own history, the fears that are occasioned history, the fears that are occasioned history, the fears that are occasioned by the outer world will not be so by the outer world will not be so by the outer world will not be so overwhelming. overwhelming. overwhelming. And of course, I knew intuitively the And of course, I knew intuitively the And of course, I knew intuitively the truth of that. And and so I I realized, truth of that. And and so I I realized, truth of that. And and so I I realized, isn't it interesting how my psyche, isn't it interesting how my psyche, isn't it interesting how my psyche, contrary to my intentions, and that's contrary to my intentions, and that's contrary to my intentions, and that's why there's a difference between why there's a difference between why there's a difference between purpose. My purpose there was to purpose. My purpose there was to purpose. My purpose there was to accumulate clinical experience. The accumulate clinical experience. The accumulate clinical experience. The meaning of it was taking me back into meaning of it was taking me back into meaning of it was taking me back into the body, to suffering, to what can be the body, to suffering, to what can be the body, to suffering, to what can be the horror of life as well as the beauty the horror of life as well as the beauty the horror of life as well as the beauty of life. and and to go through it to of life. and and to go through it to of life. and and to go through it to deal with it. And um that was part of deal with it. And um that was part of deal with it. And um that was part of what I had to transform in that. There's what I had to transform in that. There's what I had to transform in that. There's nothing wrong with fear. That's natural nothing wrong with fear. That's natural nothing wrong with fear. That's natural and normal in human life. There's and normal in human life. There's and normal in human life. There's something wrong with living a something wrong with living a something wrong with living a fear-driven life, though. There's a fear-driven life, though. There's a fear-driven life, though. There's a there's a difference there. And I there's a difference there. And I there's a difference there. And I realize I'm here because I belong here. realize I'm here because I belong here. realize I'm here because I belong here. This is what I need to do here. my own This is what I need to do here. my own This is what I need to do here. my own psyche psyche psyche which once was terrified of hospitals which once was terrified of hospitals which once was terrified of hospitals had to come back into a hospital as an had to come back into a hospital as an had to come back into a hospital as an adult to absorb what was overwhelming to adult to absorb what was overwhelming to adult to absorb what was overwhelming to the child. So I think in that example the child. So I think in that example the child. So I think in that example you can see the difference between you can see the difference between you can see the difference between purpose and and meaning. Meaning comes purpose and and meaning. Meaning comes purpose and and meaning. Meaning comes from the soul. Purpose has to do with from the soul. Purpose has to do with from the soul. Purpose has to do with our orientation to um and adaptations in our orientation to um and adaptations in our orientation to um and adaptations in the outer world. the outer world. the outer world. >> Yeah, I love that distinction. If I >> Yeah, I love that distinction. If I >> Yeah, I love that distinction. If I could just use that example and just could just use that example and just could just use that example and just probe a little bit further because I I probe a little bit further because I I probe a little bit further because I I find this topic super fascinating. Some people who use those words meaning Some people who use those words meaning and purpose interchangeably may hear and purpose interchangeably may hear and purpose interchangeably may hear what you have just said and go okay Jim what you have just said and go okay Jim what you have just said and go okay Jim when you were you know you were you were when you were you know you were you were when you were you know you were you were doing purposeful activities learning doing purposeful activities learning doing purposeful activities learning what you had to learn you were doing what you had to learn you were doing what you had to learn you were doing what you needed to do to earn money for what you needed to do to earn money for what you needed to do to earn money for your family. These are all purposeful your family. These are all purposeful your family. These are all purposeful activities, activities, activities, but they're not you necessarily finding but they're not you necessarily finding but they're not you necessarily finding your purpose. your purpose. your purpose. And I think I I I think about this a And I think I I I think about this a And I think I I I think about this a lot, right? What what does it actually lot, right? What what does it actually lot, right? What what does it actually mean to live a life of purpose? Because mean to live a life of purpose? Because mean to live a life of purpose? Because I think sometimes it's interpreted as I I think sometimes it's interpreted as I I think sometimes it's interpreted as I have to find that one thing that I've have to find that one thing that I've have to find that one thing that I've been put on this earth in order to do. been put on this earth in order to do. been put on this earth in order to do. And perhaps that is a reasonable thing And perhaps that is a reasonable thing And perhaps that is a reasonable thing for some people if they live in a world for some people if they live in a world for some people if they live in a world and an environment where they can find and an environment where they can find and an environment where they can find that true thing that their soul is that true thing that their soul is that true thing that their soul is calling to them regularly. Right? But I calling to them regularly. Right? But I calling to them regularly. Right? But I think also I recognize that a lot of think also I recognize that a lot of think also I recognize that a lot of people can't do that or they don't seem people can't do that or they don't seem people can't do that or they don't seem to be able to do that. So what I've to be able to do that. So what I've to be able to do that. So what I've often said to people is listen often said to people is listen often said to people is listen if for example you uh you work in a call if for example you uh you work in a call if for example you uh you work in a call center and you don't like your job right center and you don't like your job right center and you don't like your job right so you're literally doing that job to so you're literally doing that job to so you're literally doing that job to pay the bills and feed your children pay the bills and feed your children pay the bills and feed your children right which is a purposeful activity right which is a purposeful activity right which is a purposeful activity >> sure >> sure >> sure >> I often or I have said to people I say >> I often or I have said to people I say >> I often or I have said to people I say listen if we can help together figure listen if we can help together figure listen if we can help together figure out what your inner core values are out what your inner core values are out what your inner core values are right and you start living a life in right and you start living a life in right and you start living a life in alignment with those values. To me, that alignment with those values. To me, that alignment with those values. To me, that is a purposeful life. So, to make that is a purposeful life. So, to make that is a purposeful life. So, to make that um a bit more practical for that person um a bit more practical for that person um a bit more practical for that person who's working in a call center and they who's working in a call center and they who's working in a call center and they don't like their job, if one of their don't like their job, if one of their don't like their job, if one of their inner core values is kindness, right? inner core values is kindness, right? inner core values is kindness, right? It's really important to me to be kind. It's really important to me to be kind. It's really important to me to be kind. >> Yeah. Then I believe that if that person >> Yeah. Then I believe that if that person >> Yeah. Then I believe that if that person is kind to the barista who makes his is kind to the barista who makes his is kind to the barista who makes his coffee on the way to work, if he is kind coffee on the way to work, if he is kind coffee on the way to work, if he is kind to the bus driver who drives him to to the bus driver who drives him to to the bus driver who drives him to work, if he is kind to his work work, if he is kind to his work work, if he is kind to his work colleagues and his manager when he's at colleagues and his manager when he's at colleagues and his manager when he's at the job he doesn't like, the job he doesn't like, the job he doesn't like, I still believe that is a purposeful I still believe that is a purposeful I still believe that is a purposeful life. And the more people start living life. And the more people start living life. And the more people start living in alignment with those inner values, in alignment with those inner values, in alignment with those inner values, the more likely it is that an the more likely it is that an the more likely it is that an opportunity is going to present itself opportunity is going to present itself opportunity is going to present itself where they could potentially leave that where they could potentially leave that where they could potentially leave that job and do something else. So I' I'd job and do something else. So I' I'd job and do something else. So I' I'd love your perspective on on that take love your perspective on on that take love your perspective on on that take which I've just presented if you don't which I've just presented if you don't which I've just presented if you don't mind. mind. mind. >> Of course. No, I fully concur with your >> Of course. No, I fully concur with your >> Of course. No, I fully concur with your point of view. Um it's purposeful and point of view. Um it's purposeful and point of view. Um it's purposeful and meaningful to have family life. It's meaningful to have family life. It's meaningful to have family life. It's purposeful and meaningful to be purposeful and meaningful to be purposeful and meaningful to be self-supporting as that person is doing. self-supporting as that person is doing. self-supporting as that person is doing. Sadly, most of the history of humanity Sadly, most of the history of humanity Sadly, most of the history of humanity has never allowed people or all sorts of has never allowed people or all sorts of has never allowed people or all sorts of social structures for perh for reasons, social structures for perh for reasons, social structures for perh for reasons, you know, coming from the time and you know, coming from the time and you know, coming from the time and culture didn't allow them opportunity culture didn't allow them opportunity culture didn't allow them opportunity for self-expression. You know, one can for self-expression. You know, one can for self-expression. You know, one can be born a slave, so to speak, or born be born a slave, so to speak, or born be born a slave, so to speak, or born into harsh circumstances or be into harsh circumstances or be into harsh circumstances or be biologically impaired or a thousand biologically impaired or a thousand biologically impaired or a thousand things. But you're absolutely right. You things. But you're absolutely right. You things. But you're absolutely right. You know, within the context of family life, know, within the context of family life, know, within the context of family life, work life, if kindness is a value, work life, if kindness is a value, work life, if kindness is a value, you're going to have plenty of you're going to have plenty of you're going to have plenty of opportunities to exercise that. And you opportunities to exercise that. And you opportunities to exercise that. And you do it do it do it not even about the other person because not even about the other person because not even about the other person because it's right for you to do that. See, it's right for you to do that. See, it's right for you to do that. See, that's part of who you are. So, you that's part of who you are. So, you that's part of who you are. So, you honor that. There's depth and dignity in honor that. There's depth and dignity in honor that. There's depth and dignity in in labor, for example. I mean, I've in labor, for example. I mean, I've in labor, for example. I mean, I've worked in jobs I hated. factory work, worked in jobs I hated. factory work, worked in jobs I hated. factory work, digging ditches, etc. as a young person digging ditches, etc. as a young person digging ditches, etc. as a young person and I never liked the work, but it was and I never liked the work, but it was and I never liked the work, but it was purposeful to learn skills to support purposeful to learn skills to support purposeful to learn skills to support myself, etc., etc., but it wasn't myself, etc., etc., but it wasn't myself, etc., etc., but it wasn't meaningful for me other than being meaningful for me other than being meaningful for me other than being self-supported. That part was self-supported. That part was self-supported. That part was meaningful. meaningful. meaningful. >> What it made clear to me is I needed to >> What it made clear to me is I needed to >> What it made clear to me is I needed to find another way to earn a living, to find another way to earn a living, to find another way to earn a living, to pay for my daily bread, so to speak. pay for my daily bread, so to speak. pay for my daily bread, so to speak. Now again, meaning and purpose when Now again, meaning and purpose when Now again, meaning and purpose when they're aligned is a much more they're aligned is a much more they're aligned is a much more harmonious life because it's it's harmonious life because it's it's harmonious life because it's it's purposeful to continue to live. It's purposeful to continue to live. It's purposeful to continue to live. It's purposeful to be self-supportive if one purposeful to be self-supportive if one purposeful to be self-supportive if one can one has the capacity to do that. can one has the capacity to do that. can one has the capacity to do that. It's purposeful to be kind to others It's purposeful to be kind to others It's purposeful to be kind to others etc. etc. etc. But there's also for I come back again But there's also for I come back again But there's also for I come back again to a personal example. It was very to a personal example. It was very to a personal example. It was very purposeful for me to get an education. I purposeful for me to get an education. I purposeful for me to get an education. I had a doctorate by the time I was 27 and had a doctorate by the time I was 27 and had a doctorate by the time I was 27 and I I entered the world of academia which I I entered the world of academia which I I entered the world of academia which I enjoyed. I enjoyed. I enjoyed. At the same time I also later through At the same time I also later through At the same time I also later through analysis and my dreams and so forth came analysis and my dreams and so forth came analysis and my dreams and so forth came to realize it was my way of avoiding to to realize it was my way of avoiding to to realize it was my way of avoiding to take the high road if you will to avoid take the high road if you will to avoid take the high road if you will to avoid the fury and mire of human veins as the fury and mire of human veins as the fury and mire of human veins as Yates put it. um that I found going on Yates put it. um that I found going on Yates put it. um that I found going on back in the hospital. That's why I said back in the hospital. That's why I said back in the hospital. That's why I said I was stunned to realize my own psyche I was stunned to realize my own psyche I was stunned to realize my own psyche had pulled me back into the place that I had pulled me back into the place that I had pulled me back into the place that I had fled and there was profound meaning had fled and there was profound meaning had fled and there was profound meaning in that. It was purpose for me to get in that. It was purpose for me to get in that. It was purpose for me to get clinical experience. I was required to clinical experience. I was required to clinical experience. I was required to do that. The real meaning of it was you do that. The real meaning of it was you do that. The real meaning of it was you can run but you can't hide. your own can run but you can't hide. your own can run but you can't hide. your own psyche is going to pull you back here psyche is going to pull you back here psyche is going to pull you back here and it's going to help you or and it's going to help you or and it's going to help you or drive you to to confront your fears so drive you to to confront your fears so drive you to to confront your fears so that they're no longer your fears. And that they're no longer your fears. And that they're no longer your fears. And you know, shortly after that, my you know, shortly after that, my you know, shortly after that, my adaptation, my my fitting into what was adaptation, my my fitting into what was adaptation, my my fitting into what was a locked ward of a psychiatric facility a locked ward of a psychiatric facility a locked ward of a psychiatric facility with which are many psychotic with which are many psychotic with which are many psychotic individuals was a much more profound individuals was a much more profound individuals was a much more profound experience because I I was much more experience because I I was much more experience because I I was much more aware of their suffering. I was less aware of their suffering. I was less aware of their suffering. I was less concerned about my apprehensions about concerned about my apprehensions about concerned about my apprehensions about them and more concerned with what them and more concerned with what them and more concerned with what suffering had brought them to that suffering had brought them to that suffering had brought them to that place, whether biological, social, or or place, whether biological, social, or or place, whether biological, social, or or both. And so that's why I said earlier both. And so that's why I said earlier both. And so that's why I said earlier in this conversation, in this conversation, in this conversation, I would have never imagined as a child I would have never imagined as a child I would have never imagined as a child spending my life with people who are so spending my life with people who are so spending my life with people who are so experiencing suffering of one kind or experiencing suffering of one kind or experiencing suffering of one kind or another. another. another. >> And yet today, I'm I'm blessed to have >> And yet today, I'm I'm blessed to have >> And yet today, I'm I'm blessed to have the opportunity to share the meaningful the opportunity to share the meaningful the opportunity to share the meaningful purpose of their journeys and it's part purpose of their journeys and it's part purpose of their journeys and it's part of my journey to be part of that of my journey to be part of that of my journey to be part of that conversation with them. Again, that's conversation with them. Again, that's conversation with them. Again, that's why we're talking today. why we're talking today. why we're talking today. >> And the and the thread that runs through >> And the and the thread that runs through >> And the and the thread that runs through that has always been teaching. Now, you that has always been teaching. Now, you that has always been teaching. Now, you can teach as a way of earning a living, can teach as a way of earning a living, can teach as a way of earning a living, but you can also teach because there's but you can also teach because there's but you can also teach because there's something that you find meaningful about something that you find meaningful about something that you find meaningful about sharing what you've learned with people sharing what you've learned with people sharing what you've learned with people in a way that could be helpful to them. in a way that could be helpful to them. in a way that could be helpful to them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And and there's a difference there. >> And and there's a difference there. >> And and there's a difference there. There's a subtle difference between There's a subtle difference between There's a subtle difference between purpose and meaning. But meaning is is purpose and meaning. But meaning is is purpose and meaning. But meaning is is really how this speaks to and honors really how this speaks to and honors really how this speaks to and honors something deep within you that is something deep within you that is something deep within you that is wishing expression through you. You wishing expression through you. You wishing expression through you. You know, I'm at a place where I could have know, I'm at a place where I could have know, I'm at a place where I could have retired a long time ago, but I I'm still retired a long time ago, but I I'm still retired a long time ago, but I I'm still doing these things. I'm still working doing these things. I'm still working doing these things. I'm still working with clients because, as I say to my with clients because, as I say to my with clients because, as I say to my wife, wife, wife, what better can I be doing with my life what better can I be doing with my life what better can I be doing with my life than the thing that matters most to me? than the thing that matters most to me? than the thing that matters most to me? You see, You see, You see, >> it's it's funny you just say that. You >> it's it's funny you just say that. You >> it's it's funny you just say that. You you're you're you know, almost 85. you're you're you know, almost 85. you're you're you know, almost 85. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> You're still working. You're still >> You're still working. You're still >> You're still working. You're still seeing clients three days a week seeing clients three days a week seeing clients three days a week regularly. regularly. regularly. And I know from what I've heard that you And I know from what I've heard that you And I know from what I've heard that you don't really engage with social media. don't really engage with social media. don't really engage with social media. Um Um Um >> I'm not sure how much you're aware of >> I'm not sure how much you're aware of >> I'm not sure how much you're aware of this longevity and anti-aging movement this longevity and anti-aging movement this longevity and anti-aging movement that is growing these days about how can that is growing these days about how can that is growing these days about how can we um well it's interpreted in many we um well it's interpreted in many we um well it's interpreted in many ways. You know the that you know it's ways. You know the that you know it's ways. You know the that you know it's how can we you know make sure that as how can we you know make sure that as how can we you know make sure that as long as we're alive we're as active and long as we're alive we're as active and long as we're alive we're as active and as well as we can be. There's also a lot as well as we can be. There's also a lot as well as we can be. There's also a lot of people who are talking about delaying of people who are talking about delaying of people who are talking about delaying aging aging aging um extending human lifespan perhaps you um extending human lifespan perhaps you um extending human lifespan perhaps you know people there's all kinds of wild know people there's all kinds of wild know people there's all kinds of wild claims being made at the moment around claims being made at the moment around claims being made at the moment around that but the people who tend to be that but the people who tend to be that but the people who tend to be talking about that and I I follow this talking about that and I I follow this talking about that and I I follow this movement quite carefully I find a lot of movement quite carefully I find a lot of movement quite carefully I find a lot of it is biological okay it's physical it is biological okay it's physical it is biological okay it's physical activity will do this to your hormones activity will do this to your hormones activity will do this to your hormones and your mitochondria and your mitochondria and your mitochondria uh getting enough will you know have uh getting enough will you know have uh getting enough will you know have these kind of biological effects on your these kind of biological effects on your these kind of biological effects on your body right and those things are are body right and those things are are body right and those things are are deeply fascinating to me and they're deeply fascinating to me and they're deeply fascinating to me and they're very very interesting at the same time I very very interesting at the same time I very very interesting at the same time I have a deep belief within me have a deep belief within me have a deep belief within me that if you don't have a reason to get that if you don't have a reason to get that if you don't have a reason to get up in the morning up in the morning up in the morning if you really don't have that reason if you really don't have that reason if you really don't have that reason you know on a very very deep level at you know on a very very deep level at you know on a very very deep level at some point that is the start of the end some point that is the start of the end some point that is the start of the end that is the start of that decline. And I that is the start of that decline. And I that is the start of that decline. And I I see many people around me where I I see many people around me where I I see many people around me where I live, you know, women in their 90s who I live, you know, women in their 90s who I live, you know, women in their 90s who I don't think have been that proactive don't think have been that proactive don't think have been that proactive about their health and wellbeing, but about their health and wellbeing, but about their health and wellbeing, but they have a deep sense of connection to they have a deep sense of connection to they have a deep sense of connection to the community. They've got things that the community. They've got things that the community. They've got things that they need to do and they want to do to they need to do and they want to do to they need to do and they want to do to help other people. There's a real help other people. There's a real help other people. There's a real passion, uh, a sense of purpose, a sense passion, uh, a sense of purpose, a sense passion, uh, a sense of purpose, a sense of meaning. And I really do believe that of meaning. And I really do believe that of meaning. And I really do believe that this is the big piece that the whole this is the big piece that the whole this is the big piece that the whole longevity movement is not really talking longevity movement is not really talking longevity movement is not really talking about enough. And I really appreciate about enough. And I really appreciate about enough. And I really appreciate your perspective as someone who is in your perspective as someone who is in your perspective as someone who is in their mid80s who seems to be sharp, their mid80s who seems to be sharp, their mid80s who seems to be sharp, vibrant, still seeing clients. How vibrant, still seeing clients. How vibrant, still seeing clients. How important do you think having a reason important do you think having a reason important do you think having a reason to get up each day is for you and to get up each day is for you and to get up each day is for you and frankly all of us? Right. frankly all of us? Right. frankly all of us? Right. >> Well, that's that's a profound >> Well, that's that's a profound >> Well, that's that's a profound observation. I agree with you totally. observation. I agree with you totally. observation. I agree with you totally. When I look at that movement, it's not When I look at that movement, it's not When I look at that movement, it's not like I'm eager for early death. That's like I'm eager for early death. That's like I'm eager for early death. That's not the point. But I say, "So why is it not the point. But I say, "So why is it not the point. But I say, "So why is it you want to live longer?" You know, what you want to live longer?" You know, what you want to live longer?" You know, what is that in service to? Seriously, is is that in service to? Seriously, is is that in service to? Seriously, is that simply about your ego saying, that simply about your ego saying, that simply about your ego saying, "Well, I want what I want." Ironically, "Well, I want what I want." Ironically, "Well, I want what I want." Ironically, it's the decline of tribal religions, of it's the decline of tribal religions, of it's the decline of tribal religions, of institutional assurances of another life institutional assurances of another life institutional assurances of another life that has made people even more frenetic that has made people even more frenetic that has made people even more frenetic about living longer. about living longer. about living longer. Ask the question, why should you live Ask the question, why should you live Ask the question, why should you live longer? You're, you know, taking up longer? You're, you know, taking up longer? You're, you know, taking up space on the planet. You're polluting space on the planet. You're polluting space on the planet. You're polluting the planet with no bad intentions, but the planet with no bad intentions, but the planet with no bad intentions, but you are. Why should you live longer? you are. Why should you live longer? you are. Why should you live longer? Just to serve your ego? Rather, the Just to serve your ego? Rather, the Just to serve your ego? Rather, the question, there's a difference between question, there's a difference between question, there's a difference between knowledge and wisdom. It's like why am I knowledge and wisdom. It's like why am I knowledge and wisdom. It's like why am I here and in service to what? And I fully here and in service to what? And I fully here and in service to what? And I fully concur that longevity itself is not the concur that longevity itself is not the concur that longevity itself is not the goal. I don't want to continue any goal. I don't want to continue any goal. I don't want to continue any longer than I'm able purposefully and longer than I'm able purposefully and longer than I'm able purposefully and meaningfully to live my life. Um you meaningfully to live my life. Um you meaningfully to live my life. Um you know when the time comes I I believe I know when the time comes I I believe I know when the time comes I I believe I will be able to say because there was a will be able to say because there was a will be able to say because there was a time rather recently when that was time rather recently when that was time rather recently when that was pretty much up for grabs where I said pretty much up for grabs where I said pretty much up for grabs where I said well it's my turn now. The main reason I well it's my turn now. The main reason I well it's my turn now. The main reason I want to live is I want to be here for my want to live is I want to be here for my want to live is I want to be here for my wife who is one year younger. She needs wife who is one year younger. She needs wife who is one year younger. She needs my help. I want to be her companion and my help. I want to be her companion and my help. I want to be her companion and support and caregiver. support and caregiver. support and caregiver. Um secondly, I'm still learning. I have Um secondly, I'm still learning. I have Um secondly, I'm still learning. I have an insatiable curiosity. I'd love to an insatiable curiosity. I'd love to an insatiable curiosity. I'd love to hear about advances in the sciences and hear about advances in the sciences and hear about advances in the sciences and astronomy and so forth. Um not that I astronomy and so forth. Um not that I astronomy and so forth. Um not that I have the capacity to understand it all, have the capacity to understand it all, have the capacity to understand it all, but I I just realize it's an expanding but I I just realize it's an expanding but I I just realize it's an expanding universe. Thirdly, I have work that is universe. Thirdly, I have work that is universe. Thirdly, I have work that is so meaningful to me. Why would I want to so meaningful to me. Why would I want to so meaningful to me. Why would I want to quit that? I don't. But you're right, quit that? I don't. But you're right, quit that? I don't. But you're right, because I have something moving and because I have something moving and because I have something moving and profound to live for, but it's not my profound to live for, but it's not my profound to live for, but it's not my ego existence. I I think it's all ego existence. I I think it's all ego existence. I I think it's all important to realize this particular ego important to realize this particular ego important to realize this particular ego is an assemblage that has mysteriously is an assemblage that has mysteriously is an assemblage that has mysteriously held together for a certain length of held together for a certain length of held together for a certain length of year. But it's it's a tiny instant in year. But it's it's a tiny instant in year. But it's it's a tiny instant in the history of this cosmos from whence the history of this cosmos from whence the history of this cosmos from whence we come whether we go is a profound we come whether we go is a profound we come whether we go is a profound mystery. mystery. mystery. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> My ego can never wrap its way around >> My ego can never wrap its way around >> My ego can never wrap its way around that. So I I don't even try simply say that. So I I don't even try simply say that. So I I don't even try simply say it's respected. It's it's the mystery. it's respected. It's it's the mystery. it's respected. It's it's the mystery. The question is you know we can die many The question is you know we can die many The question is you know we can die many ways before we die. And and you're right ways before we die. And and you're right ways before we die. And and you're right if you if you don't have some reason to if you if you don't have some reason to if you if you don't have some reason to get up in the morning then you better get up in the morning then you better get up in the morning then you better find it or it's time to go. You know, I find it or it's time to go. You know, I find it or it's time to go. You know, I don't mean that in any active way, but don't mean that in any active way, but don't mean that in any active way, but to say, you know, it's a summons to say, to say, you know, it's a summons to say, to say, you know, it's a summons to say, what is it that I can still learn? What what is it that I can still learn? What what is it that I can still learn? What is it I still have to grow and develop? is it I still have to grow and develop? is it I still have to grow and develop? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Now, underneath all of that, what >> Now, underneath all of that, what >> Now, underneath all of that, what distinguishes this animal from the other distinguishes this animal from the other distinguishes this animal from the other animals in this world is we suffer the animals in this world is we suffer the animals in this world is we suffer the disconnect from meaning. disconnect from meaning. disconnect from meaning. uh animals can suffer deprivations and uh animals can suffer deprivations and uh animals can suffer deprivations and and hardships of various kinds and other and hardships of various kinds and other and hardships of various kinds and other predators, let's say, but far as we predators, let's say, but far as we predators, let's say, but far as we know, they're not crises of meaning know, they're not crises of meaning know, they're not crises of meaning except sometimes with our domestic except sometimes with our domestic except sometimes with our domestic animals like fear of abandonment and so animals like fear of abandonment and so animals like fear of abandonment and so forth. However, we do and to say, all forth. However, we do and to say, all forth. However, we do and to say, all right, what is the meaningful task for right, what is the meaningful task for right, what is the meaningful task for me? You know, one of the most poignant me? You know, one of the most poignant me? You know, one of the most poignant kinds of therapeutic issues is when a kinds of therapeutic issues is when a kinds of therapeutic issues is when a person is elderly maybe is in person is elderly maybe is in person is elderly maybe is in significant discomfort and um the loved significant discomfort and um the loved significant discomfort and um the loved ones that they've most cared for are ones that they've most cared for are ones that they've most cared for are gone and there's a sense of loss and gone and there's a sense of loss and gone and there's a sense of loss and abandonment that is omnipresent and one abandonment that is omnipresent and one abandonment that is omnipresent and one then has to say yes all of that's been then has to say yes all of that's been then has to say yes all of that's been the richness of your you suffer that the richness of your you suffer that the richness of your you suffer that because there was something rich and because there was something rich and because there was something rich and valuable for you there and you honor it valuable for you there and you honor it valuable for you there and you honor it by carrying it with you, but you also by carrying it with you, but you also by carrying it with you, but you also are still here as a living organic are still here as a living organic are still here as a living organic person with with your own journey. What person with with your own journey. What person with with your own journey. What more can you learn? What more can you more can you learn? What more can you more can you learn? What more can you take delight in? And yes, practicing take delight in? And yes, practicing take delight in? And yes, practicing virtues like kindness, if that's one of virtues like kindness, if that's one of virtues like kindness, if that's one of your values, and I it's certainly your values, and I it's certainly your values, and I it's certainly something that's always spoken to me something that's always spoken to me something that's always spoken to me that kindness and compassion will get us that kindness and compassion will get us that kindness and compassion will get us through this life through this life through this life >> if we remember it. And everybody you >> if we remember it. And everybody you >> if we remember it. And everybody you meet out there is in need of those, meet out there is in need of those, meet out there is in need of those, whether they pay attention to it or not. whether they pay attention to it or not. whether they pay attention to it or not. It does affect things. It does affect things. It does affect things. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Being mindful of our place on the planet >> Being mindful of our place on the planet >> Being mindful of our place on the planet and not leaving a more troubled planet and not leaving a more troubled planet and not leaving a more troubled planet for our descendants is another I think for our descendants is another I think for our descendants is another I think redeeming value as as we age. But again redeeming value as as we age. But again redeeming value as as we age. But again underneath it is let's not confuse the underneath it is let's not confuse the underneath it is let's not confuse the ego's nervous desire for its own self uh ego's nervous desire for its own self uh ego's nervous desire for its own self uh perpetuation perpetuation perpetuation with with living a meaningful life. with with living a meaningful life. with with living a meaningful life. >> Yeah. You see, that's that's the >> Yeah. You see, that's that's the >> Yeah. You see, that's that's the infantile part of us. And I don't judge infantile part of us. And I don't judge infantile part of us. And I don't judge it. I'm just trying to identify. it. I'm just trying to identify. it. I'm just trying to identify. >> Why should you live longer, right? >> Why should you live longer, right? >> Why should you live longer, right? >> Uh in service to what? Now, that's a >> Uh in service to what? Now, that's a >> Uh in service to what? Now, that's a healthy question. In service to what? I healthy question. In service to what? I healthy question. In service to what? I don't say it's for simply perpetuation don't say it's for simply perpetuation don't say it's for simply perpetuation of your life. In the long run, that's of your life. In the long run, that's of your life. In the long run, that's trivial in the great scheme of the trivial in the great scheme of the trivial in the great scheme of the universe, whatever that may be. And it universe, whatever that may be. And it universe, whatever that may be. And it is though profoundly important. Say, now is though profoundly important. Say, now is though profoundly important. Say, now what is it you can do? And one thing you what is it you can do? And one thing you what is it you can do? And one thing you can do is be kind to people around you. can do is be kind to people around you. can do is be kind to people around you. Pay attention. Live with compassion for Pay attention. Live with compassion for Pay attention. Live with compassion for this world. And when you you do that, this world. And when you you do that, this world. And when you you do that, you know, life takes on a certain flavor you know, life takes on a certain flavor you know, life takes on a certain flavor that you might have known in the past that you might have known in the past that you might have known in the past but thought was lost forever. And it's but thought was lost forever. And it's but thought was lost forever. And it's never never lost. never never lost. never never lost. >> Yeah. How do you define freedom? >> Yeah. How do you define freedom? >> Yeah. How do you define freedom? >> Uh by letting go of the concentration >> Uh by letting go of the concentration >> Uh by letting go of the concentration camp that you created in your own mind. camp that you created in your own mind. camp that you created in your own mind. That's what forgiveness is. You give That's what forgiveness is. You give That's what forgiveness is. You give yourself a gift yourself a gift yourself a gift that you do not carry that you do not carry that you do not carry the people that you hate the people that you hate the people that you hate that you release them. You let them go. that you release them. You let them go. that you release them. You let them go. That's how That's how That's how that's why forgiveness is not about me that's why forgiveness is not about me that's why forgiveness is not about me forgiving you for what you did to me. is forgiving you for what you did to me. is forgiving you for what you did to me. is for me to liberate myself for me to liberate myself for me to liberate myself not to be a prisoner not to be a prisoner not to be a prisoner or the hostage of the past. I don't live or the hostage of the past. I don't live or the hostage of the past. I don't live in Awitz. I go through the valley of the in Awitz. I go through the valley of the in Awitz. I go through the valley of the shadow of that. I don't camp there or shadow of that. I don't camp there or shadow of that. I don't camp there or set up household there. But I don't set up household there. But I don't set up household there. But I don't forget it or overcome it. I came to forget it or overcome it. I came to forget it or overcome it. I came to terms with it. I call it my cherished terms with it. I call it my cherished terms with it. I call it my cherished wound. wound. wound. >> Yeah. I mean, Edith, your book, um, >> Yeah. I mean, Edith, your book, um, >> Yeah. I mean, Edith, your book, um, I've got marks and underlines on almost I've got marks and underlines on almost I've got marks and underlines on almost every page of this thing. There is every page of this thing. There is every page of this thing. There is wisdom, there's gold. I've been on my wisdom, there's gold. I've been on my wisdom, there's gold. I've been on my own personal um, inward journey since my own personal um, inward journey since my own personal um, inward journey since my father died 7 and a half years ago. And father died 7 and a half years ago. And father died 7 and a half years ago. And lots of the truths that I'm learning are lots of the truths that I'm learning are lots of the truths that I'm learning are beautifully beautifully beautifully um, and very articulately put together um, and very articulately put together um, and very articulately put together in the gift. Um, and it really has been in the gift. Um, and it really has been in the gift. Um, and it really has been a gift into my life. So, I thank you for a gift into my life. So, I thank you for a gift into my life. So, I thank you for that once again. But I've got the first that once again. But I've got the first that once again. But I've got the first thing I've underlined is on page three, thing I've underlined is on page three, thing I've underlined is on page three, and it's just so powerful. It almost and it's just so powerful. It almost and it's just so powerful. It almost echoes what you just said. As an Awitz echoes what you just said. As an Awitz echoes what you just said. As an Awitz survivor, survivor, survivor, I'm here to tell you that the worst I'm here to tell you that the worst I'm here to tell you that the worst prison is not the one the Nazis put me prison is not the one the Nazis put me prison is not the one the Nazis put me in. The worst prison is the one I built in. The worst prison is the one I built in. The worst prison is the one I built for myself. for myself. for myself. When did you start building that prison When did you start building that prison When did you start building that prison and when were you able to get out of it? >> Before I answer your question, >> Before I answer your question, I like to ask you how old were you when I like to ask you how old were you when I like to ask you how old were you when your father died? your father died? your father died? >> So I'm 43. Dad was 12. So I was 35 >> So I'm 43. Dad was 12. So I was 35 >> So I'm 43. Dad was 12. So I was 35 years old when my dad died. years old when my dad died. years old when my dad died. >> So would you consider >> So would you consider >> So would you consider looking at it from a different looking at it from a different looking at it from a different perspective perspective perspective that you didn't lose your father? That that you didn't lose your father? That that you didn't lose your father? That spirit was sent to you for 35 years spirit was sent to you for 35 years spirit was sent to you for 35 years and you celebrate every moment and you celebrate every moment and you celebrate every moment and then that spirit had to go home. and then that spirit had to go home. and then that spirit had to go home. >> I would. Yeah. >> I would. Yeah. >> I would. Yeah. >> Just how you look at things. >> Just how you look at things. >> Just how you look at things. >> Yeah. Your father would be very grateful >> Yeah. Your father would be very grateful >> Yeah. Your father would be very grateful knowing knowing knowing that his son has a full life, that his son has a full life, that his son has a full life, that he's interviewing survivors, that that he's interviewing survivors, that that he's interviewing survivors, that he's he is an ambassador he's he is an ambassador he's he is an ambassador for peace. for peace. for peace. Isn't that a wonderful feeling? Just Isn't that a wonderful feeling? Just Isn't that a wonderful feeling? Just looking at the same thing from a looking at the same thing from a looking at the same thing from a different perspective. different perspective. different perspective. >> Yeah. Well, thank you. Let me be opto >> Yeah. Well, thank you. Let me be opto >> Yeah. Well, thank you. Let me be opto let me be your optomologist let me be your optomologist let me be your optomologist and recognizing and recognizing and recognizing that the prison is in our own minds and that the prison is in our own minds and that the prison is in our own minds and the key is in our pocket. We create the Nazi within us. We create the Nazi within us. I graduated with honors and I never I graduated with honors and I never I graduated with honors and I never showed up for my graduation showed up for my graduation showed up for my graduation because I did not forgive myself that I because I did not forgive myself that I because I did not forgive myself that I survived. survived. survived. You see, I didn't need a Nazi. You see, I didn't need a Nazi. You see, I didn't need a Nazi. I had in my mind I had in my mind I had in my mind unfortunately unfortunately unfortunately that part that didn't allow me to that part that didn't allow me to that part that didn't allow me to celebrate the freedom fully. But I think the prison that we put But I think the prison that we put ourselves in our own mind ourselves in our own mind ourselves in our own mind needs to be really examined needs to be really examined needs to be really examined because every behavior satisfies a need. because every behavior satisfies a need. because every behavior satisfies a need. And when you have the victim's And when you have the victim's And when you have the victim's mentality, mentality, mentality, you're always going to find the you're always going to find the you're always going to find the victimizer. victimizer. victimizer. There is no victim without the There is no victim without the There is no victim without the victimizer and it also gives you um a victimizer and it also gives you um a victimizer and it also gives you um a secondary gain. It it gives you u secondary gain. It it gives you u secondary gain. It it gives you u the idea that you don't have to do the idea that you don't have to do the idea that you don't have to do anything zero. anything zero. anything zero. And that's why also yesterday's victims And that's why also yesterday's victims And that's why also yesterday's victims easily become today's victimizers easily become today's victimizers easily become today's victimizers because they look at the world two ways. because they look at the world two ways. because they look at the world two ways. The victim is weak. the victimizer is The victim is weak. the victimizer is The victim is weak. the victimizer is strong. So part of the psyche will strong. So part of the psyche will strong. So part of the psyche will identify with the aggressor identify with the aggressor identify with the aggressor and that's what we call the syndrome is and that's what we call the syndrome is and that's what we call the syndrome is um Stockholm syndrome. Yes. um Stockholm syndrome. Yes. um Stockholm syndrome. Yes. >> Yeah. You identify with the aggressor >> Yeah. You identify with the aggressor >> Yeah. You identify with the aggressor and many times children who are beaten and many times children who are beaten and many times children who are beaten unfortunately they grow up and and they unfortunately they grow up and and they unfortunately they grow up and and they carry it from generation to generation. carry it from generation to generation. carry it from generation to generation. I do everything in my power to teach, I do everything in my power to teach, I do everything in my power to teach, especially fathers. especially fathers. especially fathers. The way they treat their children The way they treat their children The way they treat their children is important is important is important because children don't do what we say, because children don't do what we say, because children don't do what we say, they do, what they see. And and the way he loves his children is And and the way he loves his children is the way he treats the mother of their the way he treats the mother of their the way he treats the mother of their children. how he he loves and adores and takes how he he loves and adores and takes care of the the mother, his wife, his care of the the mother, his wife, his care of the the mother, his wife, his life made. life made. life made. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So love is not what you feel, it's what >> So love is not what you feel, it's what >> So love is not what you feel, it's what you do. you do. you do. >> Just so powerful really. There's there's such wisdom There's there's such wisdom in what you say, Edith, but there's also in what you say, Edith, but there's also in what you say, Edith, but there's also there's love. I I can really feel there there's love. I I can really feel there there's love. I I can really feel there is love. It's is love. It's is love. It's there's no charge. There's no anger. there's no charge. There's no anger. there's no charge. There's no anger. There's no there's no sense that you're There's no there's no sense that you're There's no there's no sense that you're trying to talk down to me or talk down trying to talk down to me or talk down trying to talk down to me or talk down to anyone. It's it's it's a really to anyone. It's it's it's a really to anyone. It's it's it's a really lovely energy that even though we're lovely energy that even though we're lovely energy that even though we're 3,000 mi away and I'm looking at you 3,000 mi away and I'm looking at you 3,000 mi away and I'm looking at you through a screen, I can still feel it. through a screen, I can still feel it. through a screen, I can still feel it. >> I can feel you, too. Yes. Our spirit is >> I can feel you, too. Yes. Our spirit is >> I can feel you, too. Yes. Our spirit is really connecting well. It people don't really connecting well. It people don't really connecting well. It people don't come to me, they're sent to me. And I I come to me, they're sent to me. And I I come to me, they're sent to me. And I I couldn't be more really blessed to have couldn't be more really blessed to have couldn't be more really blessed to have you in my life. you in my life. you in my life. And your father is winking now. And your father is winking now. And your father is winking now. And he says like Mr. Higgins, And he says like Mr. Higgins, And he says like Mr. Higgins, by God, he's got it. >> Yeah. No, for sure. Um, >> Yeah. No, for sure. Um, why do you think it's so important for why do you think it's so important for why do you think it's so important for fathers fathers fathers >> as opposed to mothers to behave a >> as opposed to mothers to behave a >> as opposed to mothers to behave a certain way in front of their children? certain way in front of their children? certain way in front of their children? I think the fathers I think the fathers I think the fathers are are are the role models the role models the role models to be a knowledgeable leader but not a to be a knowledgeable leader but not a to be a knowledgeable leader but not a dictator. dictator. dictator. A father is a man. A father is a man. A father is a man. There lots of males running around, lots There lots of males running around, lots There lots of males running around, lots of boys are running around. But a father of boys are running around. But a father of boys are running around. But a father who is a man is the knowledgeable who is a man is the knowledgeable who is a man is the knowledgeable leader, a teacher, a protector, a leader, a teacher, a protector, a leader, a teacher, a protector, a provider. You see, it's it's it's provider. You see, it's it's it's provider. You see, it's it's it's uh it's the family that is really uh it's the family that is really uh it's the family that is really totally protected by a man who was totally protected by a man who was totally protected by a man who was called upon called upon called upon to have a family that looks up at him to have a family that looks up at him to have a family that looks up at him because respect because respect because respect is recognition. is recognition. is recognition. that you look at your father and knowing that you look at your father and knowing that you look at your father and knowing that he is not going to say one thing that he is not going to say one thing that he is not going to say one thing and do another. That's a definition of a and do another. That's a definition of a and do another. That's a definition of a hypocrite. hypocrite. hypocrite. So when the phone rings and you pick up So when the phone rings and you pick up So when the phone rings and you pick up the phone and you tell your father very the phone and you tell your father very the phone and you tell your father very quietly, "Daddy, it's for you." And your quietly, "Daddy, it's for you." And your quietly, "Daddy, it's for you." And your father tells you very quietly, "Tell her father tells you very quietly, "Tell her father tells you very quietly, "Tell her mom, not here." and the following week mom, not here." and the following week mom, not here." and the following week he's giving you a lecture about honesty, he's giving you a lecture about honesty, he's giving you a lecture about honesty, you're going to catch your father very you're going to catch your father very you're going to catch your father very quickly and say, "Hey, dad, what are we quickly and say, "Hey, dad, what are we quickly and say, "Hey, dad, what are we talking about?" Okay, children see talking about?" Okay, children see talking about?" Okay, children see everything they say, you know, and I everything they say, you know, and I everything they say, you know, and I think that's very important with the think that's very important with the think that's very important with the children to be consistent. children to be consistent. children to be consistent. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I train parents to be good parents to >> I train parents to be good parents to >> I train parents to be good parents to themselves so they can be good parents themselves so they can be good parents themselves so they can be good parents to the children. to the children. to the children. >> Yeah. No, thank you for that. It's, >> Yeah. No, thank you for that. It's, >> Yeah. No, thank you for that. It's, you know, I've been a father now for 10 you know, I've been a father now for 10 you know, I've been a father now for 10 years years years and I've very much changed and I've very much changed and I've very much changed my parenting style over those 10 years. my parenting style over those 10 years. my parenting style over those 10 years. But a lot of that has come from me But a lot of that has come from me But a lot of that has come from me clearing out my own closet, you know, clearing out my own closet, you know, clearing out my own closet, you know, looking in the mirror, being honest with looking in the mirror, being honest with looking in the mirror, being honest with myself, not trying to kid myself and myself, not trying to kid myself and myself, not trying to kid myself and saying, "Hey, listen, listen, listen saying, "Hey, listen, listen, listen saying, "Hey, listen, listen, listen mates. Um, you can't say this and do mates. Um, you can't say this and do mates. Um, you can't say this and do something different." And and I totally something different." And and I totally something different." And and I totally agree with you and certainly this has agree with you and certainly this has agree with you and certainly this has been my experience that kids don't do been my experience that kids don't do been my experience that kids don't do what you tell them to do. They do what what you tell them to do. They do what what you tell them to do. They do what they see you doing. And that really has they see you doing. And that really has they see you doing. And that really has been a huge been a huge been a huge motivator and driver for me to change motivator and driver for me to change motivator and driver for me to change because I'm thinking, well, if if I because I'm thinking, well, if if I because I'm thinking, well, if if I value my role as a father as one of the value my role as a father as one of the value my role as a father as one of the most important roles in my life, which I most important roles in my life, which I most important roles in my life, which I do, do, do, then what could be more important to me then what could be more important to me then what could be more important to me than than than addressing my past, getting rid of addressing my past, getting rid of addressing my past, getting rid of guilt, shame, anger, all kinds of toxic guilt, shame, anger, all kinds of toxic guilt, shame, anger, all kinds of toxic emotions that I have felt. emotions that I have felt. emotions that I have felt. really until very very recently. really until very very recently. really until very very recently. And by freeing myself from them, I And by freeing myself from them, I And by freeing myself from them, I parent in a different way. The parent in a different way. The parent in a different way. The interaction is different. It's more interaction is different. It's more interaction is different. It's more joyful, more happy. But it started with joyful, more happy. But it started with joyful, more happy. But it started with looking in the mirror and being honest looking in the mirror and being honest looking in the mirror and being honest with myself. with myself. with myself. >> Beautiful that you do that. And you're >> Beautiful that you do that. And you're >> Beautiful that you do that. And you're also called upon to be a guide to also called upon to be a guide to also called upon to be a guide to others, others, others, a guide from darkness to light, from a guide from darkness to light, from a guide from darkness to light, from prison to freedom. You know, a respect prison to freedom. You know, a respect prison to freedom. You know, a respect is that someone looks at you and says, is that someone looks at you and says, is that someone looks at you and says, "I want to be like him." So it's not what we feel, it's what we So it's not what we feel, it's what we do that we commit ourselves. And that's do that we commit ourselves. And that's do that we commit ourselves. And that's what happened in Awitz. We had to commit what happened in Awitz. We had to commit what happened in Awitz. We had to commit to each other. It was cooperation, not to each other. It was cooperation, not to each other. It was cooperation, not competition or domination. Because all competition or domination. Because all competition or domination. Because all we had was each other then and all we we had was each other then and all we we had was each other then and all we have is each other now. How can we have is each other now. How can we have is each other now. How can we empower each other with our differences? empower each other with our differences? empower each other with our differences? Would Would Would you mind if I asked you a few more you mind if I asked you a few more you mind if I asked you a few more questions about your experience in questions about your experience in questions about your experience in Awitz? Awitz? Awitz? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. Awitz was h Awitz was h Awitz was h you know I usually like to quote you know I usually like to quote you know I usually like to quote Hanselier Hanselier Hanselier who has a theory on stress. who has a theory on stress. who has a theory on stress. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And he says anytime something stressful >> And he says anytime something stressful >> And he says anytime something stressful come to us we have two automatic come to us we have two automatic come to us we have two automatic responses. We either fight or flee. responses. We either fight or flee. responses. We either fight or flee. That did not work in Awitz because if That did not work in Awitz because if That did not work in Awitz because if you touch the guards, you were shot you touch the guards, you were shot you touch the guards, you were shot right there. And then right there. And then right there. And then I witnessed that I witnessed that I witnessed that when people would go and touch the guard when people would go and touch the guard when people would go and touch the guard and they were shot. and they were shot. and they were shot. There is no way I could flee because if There is no way I could flee because if There is no way I could flee because if I touched the bar wire, I was I touched the bar wire, I was I touched the bar wire, I was electrocuted. and I saw that blue body. electrocuted. and I saw that blue body. electrocuted. and I saw that blue body. So I So I So I I knew what not to do I knew what not to do I knew what not to do and I was able to turn the hatred into and I was able to turn the hatred into and I was able to turn the hatred into pity and decided that they were the pity and decided that they were the pity and decided that they were the prisoners. So I became a very talented prisoners. So I became a very talented prisoners. So I became a very talented uh schizophrenic. uh schizophrenic. uh schizophrenic. I I did what I was told every day, but I I did what I was told every day, but I I did what I was told every day, but deep inside I had my spirit. deep inside I had my spirit. deep inside I had my spirit. They could put me in a gas chamber. Any They could put me in a gas chamber. Any They could put me in a gas chamber. Any minute I had no power over it. minute I had no power over it. minute I had no power over it. 4:00 in the morning when we stood, it 4:00 in the morning when we stood, it 4:00 in the morning when we stood, it was called the appel. They were counting was called the appel. They were counting was called the appel. They were counting heads. And they told us, "If you don't heads. And they told us, "If you don't heads. And they told us, "If you don't feel well, just stay in the barracks. feel well, just stay in the barracks. feel well, just stay in the barracks. We're going to take you to the hospital. We're going to take you to the hospital. We're going to take you to the hospital. We had to discover. It was a place for We had to discover. It was a place for We had to discover. It was a place for discovery that there was no hospital. discovery that there was no hospital. discovery that there was no hospital. There was the gas chamber. So, don't There was the gas chamber. So, don't There was the gas chamber. So, don't ever stay behind because we'll never see ever stay behind because we'll never see ever stay behind because we'll never see you again. We had to learn very quickly you again. We had to learn very quickly you again. We had to learn very quickly the rules, not to fight or flee, but to the rules, not to fight or flee, but to the rules, not to fight or flee, but to stay in a situation stay in a situation stay in a situation and just kind of one day say one day at and just kind of one day say one day at and just kind of one day say one day at a time. I would say to myself, if I a time. I would say to myself, if I a time. I would say to myself, if I survive today, then tomorrow I'm going survive today, then tomorrow I'm going survive today, then tomorrow I'm going to see my boyfriend because she told me to see my boyfriend because she told me to see my boyfriend because she told me I have beautiful eyes and beautiful I have beautiful eyes and beautiful I have beautiful eyes and beautiful hands. So it's it's the way you think hands. So it's it's the way you think hands. So it's it's the way you think you create. You create what you think. you create. You create what you think. you create. You create what you think. That's important. Every morning when you That's important. Every morning when you That's important. Every morning when you get up in the morning and you look in get up in the morning and you look in get up in the morning and you look in the mirror and you say, "I love me." the mirror and you say, "I love me." the mirror and you say, "I love me." Because self love is self-care. Because self love is self-care. Because self love is self-care. It's not narcissistic. It's not narcissistic. It's not narcissistic. It's okay to love you and look forward It's okay to love you and look forward It's okay to love you and look forward to the day that you create your to the day that you create your to the day that you create your thinking, you create your feeling, and thinking, you create your feeling, and thinking, you create your feeling, and you create the behavior. So before you you create the behavior. So before you you create the behavior. So before you say anything, ask yourself, is it kind? say anything, ask yourself, is it kind? say anything, ask yourself, is it kind? Is it really very important and Is it really very important and Is it really very important and necessary? And if it's not, don't say necessary? And if it's not, don't say necessary? And if it's not, don't say it. it. it. I teach couples how to share silence. I teach couples how to share silence. I teach couples how to share silence. Don't ask how are you? That's the Don't ask how are you? That's the Don't ask how are you? That's the stupidest question. People say fine. stupidest question. People say fine. stupidest question. People say fine. And I tested that. I tested that because And I tested that. I tested that because And I tested that. I tested that because I was professor of psychology and my I was professor of psychology and my I was professor of psychology and my student told me that in America people student told me that in America people student told me that in America people are hearing but not listening. are hearing but not listening. are hearing but not listening. And I said, "Let's test it. Tomorrow And I said, "Let's test it. Tomorrow And I said, "Let's test it. Tomorrow morning, when you pick up your books, morning, when you pick up your books, morning, when you pick up your books, someone is going to say hi to you and someone is going to say hi to you and someone is going to say hi to you and you say very quietly, you say very quietly, you say very quietly, "My mother died this morning." "My mother died this morning." "My mother died this morning." Sure enough, the morning someone came said hi to him. the morning someone came said hi to him. He said, "Hi, how are you?" And my He said, "Hi, how are you?" And my He said, "Hi, how are you?" And my student said, "My mother died this student said, "My mother died this student said, "My mother died this morning." morning." morning." And guess what happened? Oh, that's And guess what happened? Oh, that's And guess what happened? Oh, that's great. I'll see you this afternoon. great. I'll see you this afternoon. great. I'll see you this afternoon. People are hearing but not listening. People are hearing but not listening. People are hearing but not listening. I like to be a compassionate listener. I like to be a compassionate listener. I like to be a compassionate listener. even to the white supremacy even to the white supremacy even to the white supremacy uh member who came to see me and told me uh member who came to see me and told me uh member who came to see me and told me how he's going to kill all the Jewish how he's going to kill all the Jewish how he's going to kill all the Jewish people, people, people, all the black people, all the Mexicans, all the black people, all the Mexicans, all the black people, all the Mexicans, all the Chinese all the Chinese all the Chinese and not to react. If I would have and not to react. If I would have and not to react. If I would have reacted, I would have taken that boy and reacted, I would have taken that boy and reacted, I would have taken that boy and dragged him to the corner. I would step dragged him to the corner. I would step dragged him to the corner. I would step on him and tell him, "Who do you think on him and tell him, "Who do you think on him and tell him, "Who do you think you're talking to? I saw my mother going you're talking to? I saw my mother going you're talking to? I saw my mother going to the gas chamber." But I think that the most obnoxious But I think that the most obnoxious person person person is my best teacher. is my best teacher. is my best teacher. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, I I I think it's very good to look >> So, I I I think it's very good to look >> So, I I I think it's very good to look at the bigot in you. at the bigot in you. at the bigot in you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's there. There is a Hitler there. >> It's there. There is a Hitler there. >> It's there. There is a Hitler there. There is a Mother Teresa there. There is There is a Mother Teresa there. There is There is a Mother Teresa there. There is kindness. There is goodness. And I think kindness. There is goodness. And I think kindness. There is goodness. And I think it's very very important it's very very important it's very very important to really change our thinking that can to really change our thinking that can to really change our thinking that can change our lives. change our lives. change our lives. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I'm getting shivers as you're talking I I'm getting shivers as you're talking I I'm getting shivers as you're talking because this this these words of wisdom that you these words of wisdom that you these words of wisdom that you that you speak, that you speak, that you speak, I can feel the truth in them. You know, I can feel the truth in them. You know, I can feel the truth in them. You know, I I can feel th this I guess this is I I can feel th this I guess this is I I can feel th this I guess this is this is where I'm I've been coming for a this is where I'm I've been coming for a this is where I'm I've been coming for a few years. I've really been trying to few years. I've really been trying to few years. I've really been trying to understand myself, understand human understand myself, understand human understand myself, understand human behavior, behavior, behavior, and and and I'm fascinated by people. I'm fascinated I'm fascinated by people. I'm fascinated I'm fascinated by people. I'm fascinated why why someone's ended up in front of why why someone's ended up in front of why why someone's ended up in front of me, why they've got a particular me, why they've got a particular me, why they've got a particular realness, why they talk about it in a realness, why they talk about it in a realness, why they talk about it in a particular way, why some engage with particular way, why some engage with particular way, why some engage with what you want them to do and others what you want them to do and others what you want them to do and others don't engage. don't engage. don't engage. And I've never really judged my And I've never really judged my And I've never really judged my patients. I've always tried to learn patients. I've always tried to learn patients. I've always tried to learn from them and understand. from them and understand. from them and understand. And I guess where I'm currently on in my And I guess where I'm currently on in my And I guess where I'm currently on in my journey and what I love about what you journey and what I love about what you journey and what I love about what you just said is just said is just said is I I I literally do this every day. I I I I literally do this every day. I I I I literally do this every day. I look for the friction. I look for where look for the friction. I look for where look for the friction. I look for where was I not at ease with something. Where was I not at ease with something. Where was I not at ease with something. Where did something bother me or where did I did something bother me or where did I did something bother me or where did I feel an emotion? And then my current uh feel an emotion? And then my current uh feel an emotion? And then my current uh approach is instead of trying to blame approach is instead of trying to blame approach is instead of trying to blame somebody else for that, I go no no no no somebody else for that, I go no no no no somebody else for that, I go no no no no hold on this is me. What is this hold on this is me. What is this hold on this is me. What is this bringing up in me? Because that's what I bringing up in me? Because that's what I bringing up in me? Because that's what I can control. I can control my reaction. can control. I can control my reaction. can control. I can control my reaction. So if I'm getting triggered, what is it So if I'm getting triggered, what is it So if I'm getting triggered, what is it triggering? So I spend my life now going triggering? So I spend my life now going triggering? So I spend my life now going inwards. And I got to say it's so inwards. And I got to say it's so inwards. And I got to say it's so rewarding because what could be better rewarding because what could be better rewarding because what could be better than understanding yourself? My favorite than understanding yourself? My favorite than understanding yourself? My favorite one of your six secrets is number five. one of your six secrets is number five. one of your six secrets is number five. Everything is your teacher. Everything is your teacher. Everything is your teacher. >> Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. >> Um I'm biased towards that one because I >> Um I'm biased towards that one because I >> Um I'm biased towards that one because I would say over the last 5 10 years would say over the last 5 10 years would say over the last 5 10 years that's kind of been a big shift within that's kind of been a big shift within that's kind of been a big shift within myself. how I look at everything in life myself. how I look at everything in life myself. how I look at everything in life now as a learning opportunity, good or now as a learning opportunity, good or now as a learning opportunity, good or bad. bad. bad. >> So I I really >> So I I really >> So I I really >> I love it because it it makes us less of >> I love it because it it makes us less of >> I love it because it it makes us less of a victim to life and puts us in the a victim to life and puts us in the a victim to life and puts us in the driver's seat of life, driver's seat of life, driver's seat of life, >> right? When we see things >> right? When we see things >> right? When we see things >> as our teacher, there's there's a >> as our teacher, there's there's a >> as our teacher, there's there's a learning opportunity in every single learning opportunity in every single learning opportunity in every single situation. So I want to talk about that situation. So I want to talk about that situation. So I want to talk about that secret, what you mean by it exactly. But secret, what you mean by it exactly. But secret, what you mean by it exactly. But to start off, you just shared a very to start off, you just shared a very to start off, you just shared a very powerful story of your husband powerful story of your husband powerful story of your husband of 46 years asking you for a divorce, of 46 years asking you for a divorce, of 46 years asking you for a divorce, which was devastating to you at the which was devastating to you at the which was devastating to you at the time. So through the lens of everything time. So through the lens of everything time. So through the lens of everything in life is your teacher, in life is your teacher, in life is your teacher, what did that moment teach you? what did that moment teach you? what did that moment teach you? >> Yeah, you know, um, yesterday was the >> Yeah, you know, um, yesterday was the >> Yeah, you know, um, yesterday was the 4th of July. It was Independence Day 4th of July. It was Independence Day 4th of July. It was Independence Day here in in Phoenix. here in in Phoenix. here in in Phoenix. in the United States. And 30 years ago in the United States. And 30 years ago in the United States. And 30 years ago on Independence Day, I moved into this on Independence Day, I moved into this on Independence Day, I moved into this house house house and it was after the divorce and after, and it was after the divorce and after, and it was after the divorce and after, you know, we had started our own you know, we had started our own you know, we had started our own practice and so on. But it was this I practice and so on. But it was this I practice and so on. But it was this I think it's kind of interesting that think it's kind of interesting that think it's kind of interesting that today is the day after independence day today is the day after independence day today is the day after independence day for me for 30 years. But um the the the reality of it was that when the the the reality of it was that when I started school I started school I started school I know up until that time I I life was I know up until that time I I life was I know up until that time I I life was idyllic. I thought everything was fine. idyllic. I thought everything was fine. idyllic. I thought everything was fine. But when I started school I couldn't But when I started school I couldn't But when I started school I couldn't read and I couldn't write. I couldn't read and I couldn't write. I couldn't read and I couldn't write. I couldn't all numbers would jump would move on the all numbers would jump would move on the all numbers would jump would move on the page. And so I page. And so I page. And so I had to repeat first grade twice had to repeat first grade twice had to repeat first grade twice and um the teacher called me a dummy and and um the teacher called me a dummy and and um the teacher called me a dummy and I thought I was stupid and uh I fought I thought I was stupid and uh I fought I thought I was stupid and uh I fought the kids that called me the dumbest one the kids that called me the dumbest one the kids that called me the dumbest one in the class and all of that stuff for in the class and all of that stuff for in the class and all of that stuff for two years. Not at home. At home it was a two years. Not at home. At home it was a two years. Not at home. At home it was a completely different my parents and my completely different my parents and my completely different my parents and my siblings we had I could climb up the siblings we had I could climb up the siblings we had I could climb up the hill and life was different. But when I hill and life was different. But when I hill and life was different. But when I went to school went to school went to school I was a dummy. I was a dummy. I was a dummy. That picture of being the stupid one That picture of being the stupid one That picture of being the stupid one carried through carried through carried through all the way through my life all the way through my life all the way through my life in that I didn't realize that I had a in that I didn't realize that I had a in that I didn't realize that I had a voice voice voice because I thought I always have to have because I thought I always have to have because I thought I always have to have it rechecked. I have to have if I've it rechecked. I have to have if I've it rechecked. I have to have if I've written something, I have to have written something, I have to have written something, I have to have somebody read it and make sure that it's somebody read it and make sure that it's somebody read it and make sure that it's it's all right. And it wasn't until I it's all right. And it wasn't until I it's all right. And it wasn't until I was 93 that I find found my voice. Now, the reason I'm telling you this is Now, the reason I'm telling you this is because because because sometimes we have childhood pain or even sometimes we have childhood pain or even sometimes we have childhood pain or even cultural pain or something that is so cultural pain or something that is so cultural pain or something that is so deep within us that we don't recognize deep within us that we don't recognize deep within us that we don't recognize it for what it is. it for what it is. it for what it is. Bill Mask asking me for a divorce gave Bill Mask asking me for a divorce gave Bill Mask asking me for a divorce gave me my independence. me my independence. me my independence. He literally booted me out and I needed He literally booted me out and I needed He literally booted me out and I needed to to to I had to find out how I could go on and I had to find out how I could go on and I had to find out how I could go on and how I would be able to continue to do how I would be able to continue to do how I would be able to continue to do the work. And so it called to the the work. And so it called to the the work. And so it called to the deepest part of myself. And it wasn't deepest part of myself. And it wasn't deepest part of myself. And it wasn't until I was 93 until I was 93 until I was 93 that I really realized my voice had that I really realized my voice had that I really realized my voice had was important was important was important that I I had been using my I'd written that I I had been using my I'd written that I I had been using my I'd written these books and I'd done all these these books and I'd done all these these books and I'd done all these things but I was uh always downplaying things but I was uh always downplaying things but I was uh always downplaying them by saying yeah this this but them by saying yeah this this but them by saying yeah this this but somebody else you know it was and I somebody else you know it was and I somebody else you know it was and I realized that in downplaying them I was realized that in downplaying them I was realized that in downplaying them I was in essence denying my own voice to in essence denying my own voice to in essence denying my own voice to myself. But when I was 93, I I had a dream I I had a dream and in the dream I saw myself and as and in the dream I saw myself and as and in the dream I saw myself and as 9-year-old Glattus in the in the jungles 9-year-old Glattus in the in the jungles 9-year-old Glattus in the in the jungles of North India of North India of North India and I was in we were in tents and and I and I was in we were in tents and and I and I was in we were in tents and and I was looking out of the tent to see make was looking out of the tent to see make was looking out of the tent to see make sure my younger brother wasn't there sure my younger brother wasn't there sure my younger brother wasn't there because he was going to tattleog me because he was going to tattleog me because he was going to tattleog me because I was going to do something I because I was going to do something I because I was going to do something I wasn't supposed to do. And I knew it. wasn't supposed to do. And I knew it. wasn't supposed to do. And I knew it. And this thing that I was spo were not And this thing that I was spo were not And this thing that I was spo were not supposed to do in our family was we were supposed to do in our family was we were supposed to do in our family was we were allowed to sing hymns and budgeons allowed to sing hymns and budgeons allowed to sing hymns and budgeons on a Sunday morning, but not the other on a Sunday morning, but not the other on a Sunday morning, but not the other stuff that I wanted to sing. And I, as a stuff that I wanted to sing. And I, as a stuff that I wanted to sing. And I, as a wise 7-year-old wise 7-year-old wise 7-year-old who thought she knew something, thought who thought she knew something, thought who thought she knew something, thought that was stupid. And uh I didn't want to that was stupid. And uh I didn't want to that was stupid. And uh I didn't want to do it. And I wasn't going to do it. So, do it. And I wasn't going to do it. So, do it. And I wasn't going to do it. So, I climbed Gordon could report me to the I climbed Gordon could report me to the I climbed Gordon could report me to the uh he wasn't there. I climbed as fast as uh he wasn't there. I climbed as fast as uh he wasn't there. I climbed as fast as I could to to the top of the banana I could to to the top of the banana I could to to the top of the banana mango tree. And I'm sitting up there and mango tree. And I'm sitting up there and mango tree. And I'm sitting up there and I'm singing. I'm singing caterpillar I'm singing. I'm singing caterpillar I'm singing. I'm singing caterpillar song and anything else that I wanted to song and anything else that I wanted to song and anything else that I wanted to sing. And it was going on and on sing. And it was going on and on sing. And it was going on and on and every so often I look over my and every so often I look over my and every so often I look over my shoulder and I see Jesus up in the tree shoulder and I see Jesus up in the tree shoulder and I see Jesus up in the tree and Jesus is cracking up. I mean, he's and Jesus is cracking up. I mean, he's and Jesus is cracking up. I mean, he's laughing really, really hard. And I say laughing really, really hard. And I say laughing really, really hard. And I say to Jesus, "Jesus loves the little to Jesus, "Jesus loves the little to Jesus, "Jesus loves the little children, right?" And he says, "Yes." children, right?" And he says, "Yes." children, right?" And he says, "Yes." And I go back to my singing. But then I And I go back to my singing. But then I And I go back to my singing. But then I begin to doubt, you know, did did he begin to doubt, you know, did did he begin to doubt, you know, did did he really say that? So I look back at him really say that? So I look back at him really say that? So I look back at him and I say, "I'm still a little children, and I say, "I'm still a little children, and I say, "I'm still a little children, right?" And he says, "Yes." And I go right?" And he says, "Yes." And I go right?" And he says, "Yes." And I go back to singing and laughing. And that's back to singing and laughing. And that's back to singing and laughing. And that's when I woke up and realized when I woke up and realized when I woke up and realized that I had been denying my voice all that I had been denying my voice all that I had been denying my voice all this time this time this time >> when even Jesus accepted the fact that >> when even Jesus accepted the fact that >> when even Jesus accepted the fact that it was okay. So from that point on I it was okay. So from that point on I it was okay. So from that point on I really stopped this foolishness of really stopped this foolishness of really stopped this foolishness of saying well somebody else uh or this you saying well somebody else uh or this you saying well somebody else uh or this you know I well I got that from here or know I well I got that from here or know I well I got that from here or there. there. there. So the the whole concept of independence So the the whole concept of independence So the the whole concept of independence came from that tragic came from that tragic came from that tragic thing that I thought had ended my all thing that I thought had ended my all thing that I thought had ended my all that I had done. that I had done. that I had done. >> Yeah, Gladice, I really appreciate you >> Yeah, Gladice, I really appreciate you >> Yeah, Gladice, I really appreciate you sharing that. I think it's it's such a sharing that. I think it's it's such a sharing that. I think it's it's such a powerful story. powerful story. powerful story. It's very inspiring as well actually the It's very inspiring as well actually the It's very inspiring as well actually the fact that it was only when you were fact that it was only when you were fact that it was only when you were 93 when you feel now that you found your 93 when you feel now that you found your 93 when you feel now that you found your voice because I think many of us feel voice because I think many of us feel voice because I think many of us feel that we've still not found our voice. that we've still not found our voice. that we've still not found our voice. We're scared about what other people We're scared about what other people We're scared about what other people will think of us, will think of us, will think of us, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> We're scared of actually following our >> We're scared of actually following our >> We're scared of actually following our true path because it's kind of not what true path because it's kind of not what true path because it's kind of not what our parents want or society wants. And our parents want or society wants. And our parents want or society wants. And me hearing you say after all the me hearing you say after all the me hearing you say after all the incredible things you've achieved in incredible things you've achieved in incredible things you've achieved in your career and done me hearing you say your career and done me hearing you say your career and done me hearing you say that you only really got your voice at that you only really got your voice at that you only really got your voice at the age of 93. the age of 93. the age of 93. >> I think it gives me and I hope everyone >> I think it gives me and I hope everyone >> I think it gives me and I hope everyone listening a lot of hope. listening a lot of hope. listening a lot of hope. >> Yeah. Yeah. because why not, you know, >> Yeah. Yeah. because why not, you know, >> Yeah. Yeah. because why not, you know, because 93 is still a good age, because 93 is still a good age, because 93 is still a good age, you know, and and uh absolutely, you you know, and and uh absolutely, you you know, and and uh absolutely, you know, you've got self-doubt and and that know, you've got self-doubt and and that know, you've got self-doubt and and that doesn't mean that self-doubt doesn't doesn't mean that self-doubt doesn't doesn't mean that self-doubt doesn't creep in here here now creep in here here now creep in here here now occasionally, occasionally, occasionally, but I know that it's, you know, that I but I know that it's, you know, that I but I know that it's, you know, that I can still can still can still understand the thing that I'm really understand the thing that I'm really understand the thing that I'm really really saying. really saying. really saying. >> Yeah. You know, one of your other >> Yeah. You know, one of your other >> Yeah. You know, one of your other secrets that I really liked was secret secrets that I really liked was secret secrets that I really liked was secret four, which is you are never truly four, which is you are never truly four, which is you are never truly alone. alone. alone. And there's quite a few chapters in that And there's quite a few chapters in that And there's quite a few chapters in that section. And there's there's some real section. And there's there's some real section. And there's there's some real wisdom there. One of the chapters I wisdom there. One of the chapters I wisdom there. One of the chapters I quite liked was the one about finding quite liked was the one about finding quite liked was the one about finding your friends. And in that you were your friends. And in that you were your friends. And in that you were talking about you aim to love everyone, talking about you aim to love everyone, talking about you aim to love everyone, right? You aim to love everyone. And you right? You aim to love everyone. And you right? You aim to love everyone. And you had this phrase, had this phrase, had this phrase, I want to find the friend within them. I want to find the friend within them. I want to find the friend within them. Can you explain what you mean by that? Well, you know, you can either look to Well, you know, you can either look to the people who who are around you, who the people who who are around you, who the people who who are around you, who who are in your environment who are in your environment who are in your environment as uh friends or foe. as uh friends or foe. as uh friends or foe. And there are people who uh don't think And there are people who uh don't think And there are people who uh don't think like you do or you know are doing things like you do or you know are doing things like you do or you know are doing things that are painful and uh so on. that are painful and uh so on. that are painful and uh so on. Uh Uh Uh it's a matter of what you want to focus it's a matter of what you want to focus it's a matter of what you want to focus on. I know there are people out there on. I know there are people out there on. I know there are people out there who are hurting other people and doing who are hurting other people and doing who are hurting other people and doing bad things to other people, bad things to other people, bad things to other people, but but but they they they are there because they have their are there because they have their are there because they have their lessons to learn. they that that's their lessons to learn. they that that's their lessons to learn. they that that's their issue issue issue and I don't have to carry and I don't have to carry and I don't have to carry their issue. I mean their issue. I mean their issue. I mean there are people who are doing bad there are people who are doing bad there are people who are doing bad things but I don't have to things but I don't have to things but I don't have to understand what it is that they're understand what it is that they're understand what it is that they're trying to understand. I just have to trying to understand. I just have to trying to understand. I just have to understand that they're con confused and understand that they're con confused and understand that they're con confused and stuck and stuck and stuck and doing these things and bless them and go doing these things and bless them and go doing these things and bless them and go on. on. on. I mean, it's a matter of accepting the I mean, it's a matter of accepting the I mean, it's a matter of accepting the fact that there are evil things that go fact that there are evil things that go fact that there are evil things that go on in this world. But I don't need to on in this world. But I don't need to on in this world. But I don't need to dig in that p in that patch. I don't dig in that p in that patch. I don't dig in that p in that patch. I don't need to dig in that mud hole. uh is not need to dig in that mud hole. uh is not need to dig in that mud hole. uh is not something I choose to do. I'd much something I choose to do. I'd much something I choose to do. I'd much rather walk in the garden than to uh dig rather walk in the garden than to uh dig rather walk in the garden than to uh dig in the in the in the garbage stuff outside. garbage stuff outside. garbage stuff outside. And um And um And um I I think it's it really is a matter of I I think it's it really is a matter of I I think it's it really is a matter of choice choice choice as to how you know there are people who as to how you know there are people who as to how you know there are people who do things that I really don't like. do things that I really don't like. do things that I really don't like. But is my is my talking about that making it better or talking about that making it better or talking about that making it better or worse or my dealing with it? What's my worse or my dealing with it? What's my worse or my dealing with it? What's my engagement with that doing to what engagement with that doing to what engagement with that doing to what they're doing? If I they're doing? If I they're doing? If I continue to uh continue to uh continue to uh every time I talk to somebody talk about every time I talk to somebody talk about every time I talk to somebody talk about how awful somebody is or or you know, I how awful somebody is or or you know, I how awful somebody is or or you know, I mean, whatever. Uh that just continues mean, whatever. Uh that just continues mean, whatever. Uh that just continues it. But if I can just look at it and it. But if I can just look at it and it. But if I can just look at it and say, "Well, that's their burden to carry say, "Well, that's their burden to carry say, "Well, that's their burden to carry and uh they'll do learn what they can and uh they'll do learn what they can and uh they'll do learn what they can learn." But I just have to learn that learn." But I just have to learn that learn." But I just have to learn that they still are a human being who has the they still are a human being who has the they still are a human being who has the option of reaching their true humanity. option of reaching their true humanity. option of reaching their true humanity. And I'm just going to keep looking for And I'm just going to keep looking for And I'm just going to keep looking for that. that. that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Within that person. >> Within that person. >> Within that person. >> I I really I really love that. It's >> I I really I really love that. It's >> I I really I really love that. It's choosing where choosing where choosing where you place your attention, right? This is you place your attention, right? This is you place your attention, right? This is one of the strengths of a gratitude one of the strengths of a gratitude one of the strengths of a gratitude practice. It's like, yeah, we can find practice. It's like, yeah, we can find practice. It's like, yeah, we can find plenty of negatives each day, and the plenty of negatives each day, and the plenty of negatives each day, and the brain's wired to look for those. So, an brain's wired to look for those. So, an brain's wired to look for those. So, an intentional practice of gratitude is intentional practice of gratitude is intentional practice of gratitude is simply starting to direct your attention simply starting to direct your attention simply starting to direct your attention little by little each day to the good little by little each day to the good little by little each day to the good that does exist, the positives that do that does exist, the positives that do that does exist, the positives that do exist. exist. exist. And it's, you know, it's as you were And it's, you know, it's as you were And it's, you know, it's as you were explaining that explaining that explaining that perspective, perspective, perspective, your words were really interesting to your words were really interesting to your words were really interesting to me. You didn't say there are bad people me. You didn't say there are bad people me. You didn't say there are bad people in the world. You said there are people in the world. You said there are people in the world. You said there are people who were doing bad things, who were doing bad things, who were doing bad things, >> right? And there's a massive difference, >> right? And there's a massive difference, >> right? And there's a massive difference, right? There's a huge difference. You're right? There's a huge difference. You're right? There's a huge difference. You're not calling that person bad, wrapping up not calling that person bad, wrapping up not calling that person bad, wrapping up the entirety of them within this kind of the entirety of them within this kind of the entirety of them within this kind of threeletter word. You're going, "No, threeletter word. You're going, "No, threeletter word. You're going, "No, that's one aspect of them that I can that's one aspect of them that I can that's one aspect of them that I can see." But there's other aspects of them. see." But there's other aspects of them. see." But there's other aspects of them. You know, when I learned this, well, You know, when I learned this, well, You know, when I learned this, well, there's many, many experiences in life there's many, many experiences in life there's many, many experiences in life that have taught me this lesson. But that have taught me this lesson. But that have taught me this lesson. But I remember I remember I remember a few years ago, a few years ago, a few years ago, I was at a conference. I think it was a I was at a conference. I think it was a I was at a conference. I think it was a medical conference. and medical conference. and medical conference. and someone who I had seen online who I someone who I had seen online who I someone who I had seen online who I didn't really like the way they came didn't really like the way they came didn't really like the way they came across online. I thought they were quite across online. I thought they were quite across online. I thought they were quite combative combative combative talking down about other people talking down about other people talking down about other people constantly, constantly, constantly, you know, encouraging pylons to people you know, encouraging pylons to people you know, encouraging pylons to people online. This is online. This is online. This is and I met them at a conference. I can't and I met them at a conference. I can't and I met them at a conference. I can't remember where I saw them and I had an remember where I saw them and I had an remember where I saw them and I had an interaction with them and I thought, interaction with them and I thought, interaction with them and I thought, "Wow, they're really nice." Actually, "Wow, they're really nice." Actually, "Wow, they're really nice." Actually, you know what? I bet they're a really you know what? I bet they're a really you know what? I bet they're a really good dad. And the the point was it just good dad. And the the point was it just good dad. And the the point was it just made me think there are so many facets made me think there are so many facets made me think there are so many facets to all of us, right? We have these we to all of us, right? We have these we to all of us, right? We have these we all do things maybe that other people all do things maybe that other people all do things maybe that other people may not like, may not like, may not like, >> myself included, right? Yeah. >> myself included, right? Yeah. >> myself included, right? Yeah. >> And we can focus on that if we want or >> And we can focus on that if we want or >> And we can focus on that if we want or go that actually go that actually go that actually >> we are this rich tapestry of different >> we are this rich tapestry of different >> we are this rich tapestry of different behaviors and emotions. We can all find behaviors and emotions. We can all find behaviors and emotions. We can all find fault in other people. We can all find fault in other people. We can all find fault in other people. We can all find good things. I think every single person good things. I think every single person good things. I think every single person and in fact I'd encourage people and in fact I'd encourage people and in fact I'd encourage people listening to think about someone you listening to think about someone you listening to think about someone you really don't like and you think are really don't like and you think are really don't like and you think are problematic problematic problematic and just ask yourself you know can you and just ask yourself you know can you and just ask yourself you know can you think of one quality that they have or think of one quality that they have or think of one quality that they have or maybe two or three qualities and you maybe two or three qualities and you maybe two or three qualities and you know most of the time you can find those know most of the time you can find those know most of the time you can find those qualities they do exist so my question qualities they do exist so my question qualities they do exist so my question to you then Glattice is to you then Glattice is to you then Glattice is why should someone do that right why why should someone do that right why why should someone do that right why shouldn't they say, "Oh, they're bad. I shouldn't they say, "Oh, they're bad. I shouldn't they say, "Oh, they're bad. I don't want to interact with them." don't want to interact with them." don't want to interact with them." Right? What is the benefit to the Right? What is the benefit to the Right? What is the benefit to the individual to start looking at the individual to start looking at the individual to start looking at the positives and everyone or as you write positives and everyone or as you write positives and everyone or as you write about to aim to love everyone? about to aim to love everyone? about to aim to love everyone? But my mo my mother taught me that. She But my mo my mother taught me that. She But my mo my mother taught me that. She had a saying, had a saying, had a saying, you know, if I'd come in and I was you know, if I'd come in and I was you know, if I'd come in and I was complaining about my brother who was complaining about my brother who was complaining about my brother who was doing something right, she'd say, doing something right, she'd say, doing something right, she'd say, "There's so much bad in the best of us "There's so much bad in the best of us "There's so much bad in the best of us and so much good in the rest of us that and so much good in the rest of us that and so much good in the rest of us that it hardly behooves any of us to talk it hardly behooves any of us to talk it hardly behooves any of us to talk about the rest of us." And I would stand about the rest of us." And I would stand about the rest of us." And I would stand there and mouth it, you know, she cuz there and mouth it, you know, she cuz there and mouth it, you know, she cuz I'd heard it so many times. I'd heard it so many times. I'd heard it so many times. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. See, I think this stuff is key for See, I think this stuff is key for See, I think this stuff is key for health and happiness and longevity. I health and happiness and longevity. I health and happiness and longevity. I think this is the missing piece that think this is the missing piece that think this is the missing piece that doesn't get spoken about because if you doesn't get spoken about because if you doesn't get spoken about because if you hold on to this negative outlook in hold on to this negative outlook in hold on to this negative outlook in life, life, life, >> if you hold on to resentment, if you >> if you hold on to resentment, if you >> if you hold on to resentment, if you like to judge other people, like to judge other people, like to judge other people, >> you know what? You're not going to be >> you know what? You're not going to be >> you know what? You're not going to be healthy. You're not going to be happy. healthy. You're not going to be happy. healthy. You're not going to be happy. And I'm pretty sure you ain't going to And I'm pretty sure you ain't going to And I'm pretty sure you ain't going to live a long life. I just I just I don't live a long life. I just I just I don't live a long life. I just I just I don't believe it. And there's there's, you believe it. And there's there's, you believe it. And there's there's, you know, there's so much research on the know, there's so much research on the know, there's so much research on the negatives of resentment and an inability negatives of resentment and an inability negatives of resentment and an inability to forgive and what that does to blood to forgive and what that does to blood to forgive and what that does to blood pressure or risk of autoimmune disease pressure or risk of autoimmune disease pressure or risk of autoimmune disease or all kinds of things. There are strong or all kinds of things. There are strong or all kinds of things. There are strong links between the mind and our physical links between the mind and our physical links between the mind and our physical health. And I know you know this, you health. And I know you know this, you health. And I know you know this, you know, you were probably lecturing all know, you were probably lecturing all know, you were probably lecturing all around the world about this long before around the world about this long before around the world about this long before I was even born, but it's certainly a I was even born, but it's certainly a I was even born, but it's certainly a truth that I've discovered in two truth that I've discovered in two truth that I've discovered in two decades of practice. decades of practice. decades of practice. >> Right. And it sours your stomach. >> Right. And it sours your stomach. >> Right. And it sours your stomach. I mean, you know, if you are I mean, you know, if you are I mean, you know, if you are thinking bad thoughts and sour thoughts thinking bad thoughts and sour thoughts thinking bad thoughts and sour thoughts and mean thoughts about somebody, it you and mean thoughts about somebody, it you and mean thoughts about somebody, it you it's hard to digest. it's hard to digest. it's hard to digest. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, it reminds me a little bit of it reminds me a little bit of it reminds me a little bit of the section about regret. the section about regret. the section about regret. And you know, first of all, I I guess And you know, first of all, I I guess And you know, first of all, I I guess let me ask you let me ask you let me ask you at a 102, at a 102, at a 102, what do you regret in life? Um, Um, I I really I I really I I really believe that everything that happened to believe that everything that happened to believe that everything that happened to me was there for a reason. me was there for a reason. me was there for a reason. And um And um And um I really the whole business of of really the whole business of of having that divorce having that divorce having that divorce and the way I feel about that I don't I and the way I feel about that I don't I and the way I feel about that I don't I don't regret one minute the t time that don't regret one minute the t time that don't regret one minute the t time that I spent with Bill McGary but then I I spent with Bill McGary but then I I spent with Bill McGary but then I figure he took a vacation figure he took a vacation figure he took a vacation so I don't have I I just it took me a so I don't have I I just it took me a so I don't have I I just it took me a long time to get to that, but I finally long time to get to that, but I finally long time to get to that, but I finally realized that if I hung on to the pain realized that if I hung on to the pain realized that if I hung on to the pain that I was still having from what was that I was still having from what was that I was still having from what was our relationship, our relationship, our relationship, I it it it didn't serve me. It just made I it it it didn't serve me. It just made I it it it didn't serve me. It just made me feel bad. But if I could look at what me feel bad. But if I could look at what me feel bad. But if I could look at what we had together, we had together, we had together, we climbed the pyramid together. We did, we climbed the pyramid together. We did, we climbed the pyramid together. We did, you know, all kinds of things. We had you know, all kinds of things. We had you know, all kinds of things. We had these six amazing kids together. And all these six amazing kids together. And all these six amazing kids together. And all of a sudden, I have a amazing of a sudden, I have a amazing of a sudden, I have a amazing uh uh uh memory lane that I could go down. And uh memory lane that I could go down. And uh memory lane that I could go down. And uh I figure, well, Bill, you took a I figure, well, Bill, you took a I figure, well, Bill, you took a vacation, but I'm on this memory lane vacation, but I'm on this memory lane vacation, but I'm on this memory lane place where I'm going to do I'm going to place where I'm going to do I'm going to place where I'm going to do I'm going to learn what I had to learn from it and go learn what I had to learn from it and go learn what I had to learn from it and go on with it. on with it. on with it. >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then I >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then I >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then I think you are really going to enjoy this think you are really going to enjoy this think you are really going to enjoy this one that I picked out especially. It's one that I picked out especially. It's one that I picked out especially. It's only when you learn what to do with your only when you learn what to do with your only when you learn what to do with your unhappiness unhappiness unhappiness that you can really break through and that you can really break through and that you can really break through and find stable happiness.