Khloé Kardashian on the 3 Years She Was Too Ashamed to Leave Her House

Key Takeaway

When a goal feels too intimidating, shrink it to one exposure-sized step. Benny Blanco did not try to conquer his fear of flying; he committed to one short domestic flight, accepted that he would still feel scared, and counted getting “one step closer” as progress. Today, choose the task you have been avoiding and define the smallest version you can complete in under an hour—one email, one call, one draft, or one first attempt.

Episode Overview

Benny Blanco joins Jay Shetty to reframe failure as the raw material of meaningful success. He shares how creative risks, authenticity, boundaries, therapy, relationships, and small acts of courage helped him navigate career pressure, anxiety, and a fear of flying.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Khloé Kardashian on the 3 Years She Was Too Ashamed to Leave Her House from On Purpose. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

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Explain yourself. I'm trying to save you here, Benny. It was Dave's floors that happened to be dirty. I'm going to take a, I have no idea. Let's see. We're going to see if your feet are still dirty. Are they dirty? No, they're clean. I can verify, they're very clean. Hey, it's Jay. I don't know what your day's been like, but I was just thinking about you for a minute. And I hope you're being a little patient with yourself because you deserve it. And yeah, I'll talk to you soon.

Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier and more healed. Today we welcome back Benny Blanco, one of the most influential producers of our generation, behind some of the biggest songs in the world. Now pulling back the curtain on failure, pressure and everything he's learned along the way in his new book. Can I say it? Don't say it. F Failure. You're too nice. This is the book that I want you to go and grab. I've been reading this book.

Benny sent me an early copy and I can honestly say the stories, the style, the language, this is not an ordinary book on failure. This is not a book that just tells you how to get out of bed. This book will actually change the way you live. Go and grab your copy right now. The link is in the comments. Please welcome back to On Purpose, my dear friend, Benny Blanco. Benny, it is great to have you back. Hi. I knew you were going to do that.

Well, you know when people talk about you, it's, it makes you a little nervous. I'm going to talk about you some more. Listen to this. So we got Love Yourself, Teenage Dream, California Girls, Moves Like Jagger, Diamonds, TikTok, Circus, Perfect, Lonely. Okay. And that's just like naming like eight of the incredible catalog and classics. Too much. I hear chat. You know, if I'm like out and like, and someone plays my music in public, there's nothing that makes me more nervous. Really? Yeah. What makes you the most nervous?

Any song, I get so nervous. Unless I'm at a concert and I'm watching one of the artists perform it and everyone's singing along, that's like my heaven. Or if I like drive by and I see like a mother-daughter like singing it back and forth, that's cool to me too. Or like some of my emotional songs, when someone's singing it like to themselves in a car, that's the best. Yeah. But not though. So we should have had it playing when you walked in today. I would have left.

Next time I'm gonna make a Benny playlist and play it when you come over. No, that's like my least favorite. Don't do it. Benny, you start this book by asking people to repeat, I am a failure. And I loved it. Why? Tell us why that's important is for us to start by saying I am a failure. Because we're all failures. We failed. You failed. I fail every day. I fail constantly. Everyone's always remembering you by your successes. Nobody's sitting there like, hey, remember that one time when you tried to do that thing and it didn't work?

No one says that. And if they do, they're an asshole and they shouldn't be your friend. I wanted to make sure that, the word has such a negative connotation behind it. Like failure, failure. You've been told your whole life, don't fail, you don't wanna fail. Like you gotta be a success story. But you can't be a success story without having all these failures who make you who you are and that you learn from and learn what to do differently. Failure only sucks if you don't learn from what you failed at.

The reason why I liked it when I was reading it was I was thinking the more I realize that I wanna be good at failure, the more likely I am to become successful. Of course. It's like people are afraid to fail. I look at it like I wanna have amnesia to failure. One of my friends, he said, I don't know how you do this. You'll say that this thing's gonna be the biggest in the world. It's gonna be the best in the world. It's gonna be awesome.

And sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm wrong and it like completely fails. But the next day I wake up and I'm like, all right, what are we doing today, boys? Because I do have that amnesia to failure. It's just like, okay, I messed up. What am I gonna do? Sit here and cry about it for the next like six years? No, I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna be like, okay, that didn't work. Let me try this little adjustment and do it again. This episode of On Purpose is presented to you by Mazda.

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Visit mazdausa.com to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services. What do you think people are more scared of, failure or embarrassment? I think people are so scared to be embarrassed in front of their peers. Me, couldn't care less, couldn't care less because my friends who are all doing really well get that you fail. Only people who aren't doing that well didn't fail because yeah, if you don't take any chances, you're not gonna fail. I'd rather swing and strike the fuck out so many times.

I'd rather do it because what am I gonna do? Just be safe my whole life? I would never have done what I've done today if I didn't take those big, big swings. And I urge everyone to do it because nothing bad is gonna happen. Maybe your face gets a little bit red and a few of your friends are like, man, I thought that thing was gonna be big. But that's the worst that's gonna happen. You're reminding me, I always think of this, that all my friends that are doing well, if they send me a video or a clip, it will always be, look how awesome this is.

And any of my friends who are struggling, they'll always send me a clip saying, let's laugh at this, right? It's almost like they're sending you something where you're laughing at someone else failing whereas your friends that are winning are only sending you things of people winning. And it's really interesting where you start to see winners are watching winners, losers are watching losers. And what you're obsessed with is what you're gonna repeat. Talk to me about what was the first thing you ever failed at, do you remember?

Growing up, my brother was like the golden child. He was just the best at everything. He was the best tennis player, the best basketball player, homecoming king, valedictorian, like every single thing you could be good at, he was good at. He connected with my dad and before my parents split up and stuff, I think he connected with my dad in such a special bonding way. And I think maybe I failed at having that relationship with my dad because I wasn't good enough at the stuff that my brother was and we weren't interested in the same things.

So I think that was like, I don't even know if it's a failure, but that was the first thing where I was like, oh. And I just wanted to be as good in that moment. It was hard for everyone around me to understand what I was doing because we didn't come from a place where people were doing this. We didn't have a gajillion dollars to throw at my talent. I was doing it in Virginia. There wasn't like a huge bustling music scene at where I was living at the time and it seemed like such a pipe dream to everyone.

So I think maybe that was my first failure. I mean, that's a big one to pull out. Like I appreciate you going there because I'm like feeling like you failed at building a relationship with your dad. How did you even process that at the time? Because that, as a child, I mean, even as an adult, that's heavy, but as a child, that's tough. I don't think I realized it until writing this book because I was trying to think of all the failures in my life. Me and my dad have a great relationship.

I let my parents in different ways down so much because I wasn't focused on traditional routes. I didn't want to go to college. I didn't want to finish high school. I felt like my education was holding me back from my education on what I wanted to do in music. I think it's scary to be a parent and have like a super creative child that's not into the traditional route. Like I didn't want to be a doctor. I didn't want to be a lawyer. I wanted to make music and write songs and sing them and do everything I could.

I was like bursting with creative energy. And I think that's tough and scary for a parent. And I would urge every parent to let your kid explore, let your kid like play in a creative sandbox. And if it doesn't work out, they can always figure it out later. You know, they're 15, 16, 17, 18 years old. Life is long. My mom, I remember when I made it, she told me it was such an incredible feeling for her because she never got to pursue any of the things she wanted to because she was scared.

And I talk about it in this book. She was so scared because she was taught that you go to school, you go and you get your college degree, you get a job, you do that. And that's a safe route. She was a painter. She wanted to paint. Her parents wouldn't let her. And I think when I got to do it, it gave her like this sense of like, oh my God, anything's possible. And it is. Like I'm sure when you were doing what you were doing, your parents are like, what the fuck, he's talking in front of like a microphone.

Who's gonna listen to this, you know? What did she say to you in that interaction? She was so proud of me and that she wishes she were as brave as I was when she was younger. But she wasn't. She said it was just, she was like, it was a different time. There wasn't any of it. Like everything seemed so far away. Dreams seemed so far. That's beautiful, man. Where were you when you said, because you said when I made it, what do you define as when you made it?

It's so funny. It's always such arbitrary things. Like I think I was in like the New York Times, like way after it was like, it was like way after I was successful. She was like, wow, you really did make it. I remember I had like a number one song. I was like, mom, my song went number one. She was like, no, it didn't. And I was like, well, I swear. And she would ask me like, what's your backup plan? And what would you say? I was like, mom, what do you mean?

What's my backup plan? Like I'm making, I just worked with Britney Spears. Like, and she's like, yeah, but like this can't last forever. Because nobody knew. They didn't know I was gonna become what I became. How did you deal with the discomfort of people around you not understanding your dream or not believing it was possible? Because I think that's the hardest part about failing is no one around you gets you, no one around you understands it, and no one around you believes it's actually gonna be real.

How did you live through that discomfort in the early days when it wasn't proven? Tunnel vision. It was all, if you weren't with the program, I'm moving. You can either get on this train that's moving. It's already moving. We're already, there's so much momentum. You can't hold back the train. You think you're gonna hold back the train and you're not strong enough to do that. Any noise from someone else, you're either with the program or we're leaving you behind, sorry. That's how I looked at it.

That's how I looked at everything. No one was going to stop what I knew was in me. How do you think people can find that? What are you telling people in the book to do to find that tunnel vision? Because I think we get distracted by the comments section and the opinions. And now, because now it's not just your friends and family who don't believe in you, you upload something. It's the person in the comment section who doesn't believe in you. You can't believe any person who's never met you.

Like a person who's writing a comment about you that hasn't met you, instant, next. Okay, number two, hating is free. Someone can be in their basement upset with something. It's like what you were saying with your friends, sending you like things, making fun of stuff. Like it's easy. That's like low hanging fruit to make fun of someone. I don't even understand how a person could do it. I've never in my entire life gone onto someone's page and wrote something negative, like in my entire life. Like that means you went to someone's page, you watched it.

You clicked a second button to go to the comment section. You wrote out a thing, probably erased it and then wrote it a few other times. And then you clicked it again. So you had so many choices you had to make to write a shitty comment about someone. How does that reflect on you? What's so bad in your life that you have to do that to someone else? You have to put someone down to make yourself feel good enough to like make it through the day?

I don't understand that. So don't listen to any of the comments. The only time is if like one of my friends was like, hey, I don't like this thing. Then I'm like, what? You know what I mean? We're not listening to the comments. That's number one. Number two, you're gonna know when you have this passion for something. You're not just gonna be like, oh, I wonder if I have this passion. No, it's gonna be like an itch that you have to scratch. And you know, a lot of people.

They get that itch and they go... And then they just don't do it because they're told their whole life. But you don't have to do that. Scratch that itch. Try it. Try it. Try to something that makes you excited. Maybe you do it and you're like, not that great at it. Like, where I started from is not where I ended. Okay? I just got on the horse and started galloping. At first, I thought I was going to be the biggest rapper in the entire world. I didn't land there, but I landed somewhere pretty cool.

I'm in the same realm. That's what I'm saying. So, let's say you want to be a professional basketball player. But you're 5'6 and you're a little chubby. Maybe try to be the professional basketball player. When you don't make it, you land coaching a team or something. Or you land being a physical therapist. That's all I'm saying. Just start. Just start. It doesn't matter where you end up. Just start doing something. You got to start the train. Okay? Because once the train's moving, you're going to go somewhere.

You need to start the momentum. Just start with anything that excites you. And just follow it. Like, I'm sure you did not end up exactly where you thought you were. You know I had the same dream. Really? You know I thought I was going to be the biggest rapper in the world. Really? Yeah. That's the funniest thing about hearing that from you. Like, I knew that about you, obviously. But yeah, I wasn't ever going to get close. So many people, you do something and then you pivot.

But I feel like momentum is the thing you just need. You just got to keep the momentum going. If it's this, you try that. If it doesn't work, move on to this. I feel like that is another big thing for starting to find that within you. And then, I think a really important thing is, in order to be successful, I call it the stool. Okay? So you have this stool. Your life's up top, okay? This is your life. It's the top of the seat. And then you have, you know, three, four legs.

What are the three most important things in your life? What would you say? I've read the books. I don't want to give the answer. Okay, so most people say career. Some sort of career. Making money, however, whatever it is. Most people say their family or their loved ones, or their wife, or their husband, whatever it is. And then most people say something to do with their health. Those are like three pretty standard pillars of what's important. Agree. So you have those three things. You have your life on top, okay?

If one of those three legs is like leaning more, your table's gonna topple over. Your life's gonna topple over. So you have to make sure you're putting enough energy into all three things. Because a lot of people, what they do is, they start focusing on the success. They start focusing on the journey. Then they make it to the top of the mountain, and everything else is fucking gone. They don't have a family. Their health is in shambles because they've been working so hard. They've neglected it.

They're like, they have heart disease, they have this, they have that, they have anxiety. I think if you focus on building all of those simultaneously, you don't leave one out, then that's where the true success comes. And that's how you draw from the inspiration. And for me, it's like I always make sure, like I'm making sure I'm putting a good meal in my body. I'm making sure, for me, like the thing that keeps me sane is like walking. I'm walking like 20,000 steps a day. If you live in California and you live in LA, you've probably seen me walking down a street.

Like it's just, I walk, I walk. And then no matter what, I spend time with my family. I spend time with my wife. I spend time with Selena. Like it's like, the thing is we both work, we're both chasing our dreams so hard. We're both always trying to, you know, one-up ourselves. And the thing that's crazy is it's so cool to be in a relationship with someone who is so prolific and so successful. Because I look at her and I'm like her biggest cheerleader. I got pom-poms on.

And at the same time, I'm like, shit, okay, I need to be doing more. And we're both like that. And it's cool because we're fueling each other's fire. We're the wood for each other's fire. And we always make sure, like every week, gotta have a date night. Every week, the end of the day, have to check in with each other. Have those talks, be like, how was your day? And listen, we're actually listening to each other's lives. Maybe Selena's like, hey, I could really use two dates this week.

Like I'm, or I could say, hey, I'm super stressed. Like, can you like scratch my head tonight? And that's just as important as being in there, putting in the work, trying to get to where you are. It's so important to water all your plants. It's so important. As important as grinding it out and not listening to haters is watering the plants. You know, I go with my mom to the farmer's market every single weekend. I cook her lunch after, because these are the things that fill you up.

You gotta fill your cup up. How have you failed as a husband? Selena was directing her first show. And we didn't know when it was gonna happen. And I was planning on trying to get there one of the days. And I couldn't get there because I was so booked up. I was giving her all the inspiration, talking to her, listening when she got home, but like I couldn't get there. And I wish I could have been able to get there one of the days. That was one thing.

And then here's where I think I've failed her that I'm working on. I don't like to fly. And I always come and see her and do whenever she's, whatever she's doing. But it takes me so long to get there. And it's like such a process. And I'm really, really working on myself to try to be able to get there quicker. That's where I know I've failed in our relationship, where I'm actively trying my hardest to overcome that. And I haven't done it yet. I've failed at that, but I'm getting closer every day.

I got on a plane recently. She's the only reason I've been able, I haven't flown in eight years. Talk to us about that phobia. Why does it exist? Where did it come from? I think it's control and I had a bad flight and then had a few and then, you know, and I fly occasionally, but I haven't flown in eight years and trying to get better for her and for this book. This book helped me fly. I said, how could I go on and be selling everyone on a book on failures when I failed at something and I haven't done it?

I haven't done it. So I woke up one morning and I said, I'm getting on a plane. I can't, even if it's one time, I have to inch my way closer. And I got on a plane and I was scared shitless, but I did it because in the back of my head, I was thinking, I can't lie to these people, one. And two, I gotta be a fucking better husband. Gotta be a better husband. It was like an hour and change flight. Yeah, so that's good.

You tested the waters. It wasn't like, I'm gonna take like a 10 hour flight. No, no, no, no, no. It was like an hour, it was domestic. It's like to Vegas or to Arizona or something. I wanted to get off before I got on. And I just told myself, I was like, I can't. I gotta get a little bit further. I gotta get just a little bit closer. And I wasn't trying to conquer it all that day. I said, just get on this one flight. Just get on this one flight.

And that's what I kept telling myself. And I got on. And I was scared, but I made it. I remember I called Selena after. I was like, I did the flight. She's like, are you ready to fly tomorrow? And then I was like, not yet, but I'm on my way. There's so much to that in this whole idea of air failure because it's like, you started small. You did a flight that was one hour away. You said, just take this one flight. Just post that one video.

Take that one step, make that one song. Like just start with one. And then the idea that it's not that it suddenly took away all your fear and suddenly took away all your insecurity, it just, it got you one step closer. It got me closer. And you don't have to climb the mountain in one day. A lot of people get overwhelmed with all the tasks in front of them. That's what I notice the most with people. They get overwhelmed with, okay, so I wanna start a podcast.

Well, if I start a podcast, I need to get the cameras. And then if I get the cameras, I need to get the microphones. And then I need to find guests. And then who are the guests gonna be? I think just like focus on one part at a time. I never try to do too much at once. I had to turn down so many projects as a songwriter and producer, where like the four-year-old me would be like crying that I had to do this. But I knew if I spread myself too thin, I wouldn't be able to focus on what was important.

And I like to be laser-focused on one thing at a time. Everyone wants to build the house in a day. Oh, you gotta, let's start with the foundation. Ooh, then let's put the gravel in. Ooh, let's put, you know what I mean? I think it takes time. And people wanna be a success story overnight. And I think Instagram, Twitter, or X, whatever it's called, TikTok made people wanna accelerate so much. And to me, you see someone's, now you just click a button and you see someone's success, it's already done.

And people get jealous. And they say, well, I wanna be famous. Like when I was younger, nobody just said I wanna be famous. Like that wasn't a thing. You wouldn't just say like, oh, I wanna be famous. People had a goal that I wanted to be the best soccer player in the world. I wanna be the best basketball player in the world. I wanna be the best rights activist in the world. I wanted to be this. And I think people need to find a passion. You tell some amazing stories of some people who are now famous in the book.

I wanted you to tell the Bruno Mars story because I thought that was incredible to read that he used to be an Elvis impersonator. And I was like, I didn't even know that. When he was a kid, he was an Elvis impersonator. I remember the first time I worked with Bruno, I brought him to the studio and he wasn't known yet. This was years before he was known. He gets in the studio, he writes a song. His harmonies, everything, it was so unbelievable to watch. And I remember being like, oh my God, this guy's insane.

This is the crazy part about Bruno. He was signed to a record deal and he got dropped. Then he had to start again. He's writing songs for people, doing anything he could. And he wrote a bunch of songs that people started recording. He did Billionaire for Travie McCoy. He did Nothing on You for B.O.B. He was the demo vocalist on the chorus. And they were trying to get all these big people to be the feature and take him off because he wasn't an artist yet. And he was so good that one of my friends who signed him, this guy named Aaron Bayshak, he was like, we gotta keep this guy on the records.

We have to put this guy on the song. And everyone was like, no, no, he has no name. No, it'll never sell. And they couldn't find anyone who could sing the demo as good as him. He gets on the records, Nothing on You becomes a number one song. I remember I was working with him right after that song first happened. And he said, somebody noticed me in the airport. Goes, I'm gonna be fucking huge. I remember he said, you know what? The funniest part was, it was right when Mike Posner was really big with the song Cooler Than Me.

And I was showing him, we were in the studio and I was showing him clips of Mike Posner performing at like a sold out college. I remember we were walking around and we like got food and he was like, man, one day I'm not even gonna be able to walk through the streets like this. And he had that drive and he kept failing. He failed so many times and nobody believed in him. And he's signed, he's dropped, he's trying to place his songs. He's getting kicked off the song.

They putting him back on because they got no other choice. And his sheer talent mixed with will and fight and drive made him who he is today. He works harder than any person I know. He will work on a song for three years straight, changing the production, new production. Yes, there is nobody in the world that works on their music as hard as he does. He's the hardest working man in show business. Wow, that's a big statement. Anybody who's ever worked with him or who knows him would echo my sentiment from the top of a mountain.

The reason he is where he is today is because of his work, his ethic, his amnesia to failure, and his sheer willingness to dust himself off and try again, over and over again. And he also happens to be the most talented singer in the world, so that doesn't hurt either. Yeah, I've seen him perform live a few times. He's unbelievable, he's so good. There is so much NFL on ESPN right now. Monday night football, plus pregame and postgame. NFL Live, NFL Primetime, everything you need to stay on top of every game, every week.

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Does anyone have any cash? Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for a 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent, taxes and fees extra. New customer offer for initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms. The reason why I asked you about how have you failed as a husband was because there's a story in the book that you tell. And the reason why I loved it so much is because I think when we watch people like you or you watch people like Bruno Mars or you watch people like Celino, whoever it may be, you think you have to try and be like them.

And in the book, you have this great story where you say to Ed, you're like, Ed, tell me about what's happening in your life. Like, don't try and write about someone else's life or something that feels right. Most of us fail because we're trying to be good at being someone else rather than starting as just being the bad version of ourself. Start it as the bad version of yourself, you'll become a phenomenal version of yourself, but if you start as a bad version of someone else, you're not going anywhere.

My friend said something that always stuck with me. He said, be yourself because everyone else is taken. And I love that. Just be original, be you, it's okay. Look at me, I am like the antithesis of what I became and what I'm supposed to be and I always am just true to myself. And I was with Ed Sheeran and we had just finished a show in Toronto and we went to this like Drake, it was when Drake and Future put out that album together. We went to like the after party and it was like so cool.

We're like having the time of our lives. We leave, we get on the bus and the way it works is when you're on tour and you're going back to America, what they do is they wake you back up at the border patrol. We said, ah, I don't wanna have to get woken up and then go to sleep again, let's write a song, okay? And this is all on film, you can see this. This was documented in a documentary. We start writing a song and Ed's writing it about like being in love with like an older woman that's like his next door neighbor and it was like, he was like kind of copying The Graduate, I was like, Ed, I don't wanna write about this.

What's going on in your life? What's going on right now? He was like, I don't wanna write a song about that person because then I'm like giving them the satisfaction that I know they don't deserve and it was about an ex. I said, well, why don't we write a song about you not wanting to write a song about it? And he looked at me like I was crazy and the first thing he said was, I don't wanna write a song because I don't want anyone to think that I care because I don't.

That became one of the most important lyrics in Love Yourself, which became a Justin Bieber song. In that moment, him just letting go of everything and not worrying about it and just like speaking from his heart and being his true self is what inspired that song. That's why so many people connect to that song because it's that true feeling that people have. I think that's why people connect to music in general because if you're having an experience, somebody else is having that same experience somewhere and I think it just goes back to how you should always just be yourself.

Don't try to be somebody else you're not because it's not gonna be you. So you can't keep it up forever. You can't keep up a facade forever. So just be yourself. Be yourself and people can take you as you are and if you fail, you fail. If you succeed, you succeed and you keep moving. The reason why I love that and I'm so glad you shared it and I just want everyone to know, when you get this book, this book is filled with story after story, page after page.

Like the amount of awesome stories you have is unbelievable. Like when I was reading the book, I was like, oh my God, there was this song and this and this person. Like it's unbelievable but the reason why I asked you that is because there's so much failure in it. So first of all, Ed's gone through a breakup which is a sort of failure. Then he's trying to write a song that isn't really him which is a sort of failure and then you say to him, well write from your own experience and then all of a sudden it hits and I go, that's what we're all getting wrong.

Like we're scared to put out that video on Instagram or TikTok or we're scared to write the book that really is what we care about or we're scared to start a company based on what we actually need when that's the thing people are gonna resonate with. Yeah, people just wanna fit in. Yeah, you know what's crazy? Also, the chorus to that song used to be, you should go and fuck yourself, okay? And I said to him, I don't want it to be fuck yourself because in 60 years, are people gonna wanna be singing that?

Like, does that sound like a classic to you? I said, if we do something else, let's give people the same message but be a little bit more thoughtful and I'm all for using fuck and I'm all for using stuff, using profanities but when it makes sense, I didn't think we needed in that moment because I thought we could get the same sentiment in a more clever way. So then we failed again. Then it took us sending it to Justin and then having him record it and then it saw the light of day and then it was the number one song and there were so many times where that idea could have stopped, okay?

Failure, embarrassment, all of those things could have stopped this idea from happening but we kept pushing through and we kept the freight train going and we kept that undeniable belief in ourselves. That's what people need in themselves. You need to believe, just believe that it's all gonna happen. It's all gonna work out somehow, somehow. I always talk to my friend about this where we'll be like in a world where it's never, there's no finish line in sight. We have no idea how we're gonna get there but I always say, I trust that it's all gonna work out because it usually does.

It's either gonna work out in the sense that you'll get to that finish line and it'll be exactly how you want and it'll be well received and people will love it and you'll love it or you'll get to that finish line, you'll do it and you'll say, shit, this didn't work out how we wanted it to. Let's go back and look at where we made our mistakes and not make the same ones the next time. Still a success to me. Yeah, you just reminded me of two things.

One thing I say is you'll get to where you want in life just not in the way you imagined it. Exactly. Because I've always got to where I want in life, just not the path or the road that I thought my life was gonna take. One of my favorite quotes from John Lennon is he said, everything will work out in the end and if it hasn't worked out, it's not the end. And I love that because it just makes you realize that you're gonna find another way, another door, another pivot.

And why I brought this story up is because even for you, when you first started making music, people compared you and said your work sounded like Timbaland and Pharrell. So it's not even you telling Ed to sound like himself, people were telling you. What did you do when you heard that? I mean, first of all, it's a phenomenal compliment because we grew up on, me and you are the same age, like Pharrell and Timbaland were like. I'm from Virginia. Yeah, unbelievable. Those guys were and are some of my favorite producers in the world and I was copying them.

I wasn't being myself. I wasn't being true to myself. I was trying to fit in and I was trying to make something that would work musically and that everyone would latch onto. And I remember I played that for an A&R who's now my manager and has been my manager the whole time. Talking about Andrew? Andrew. Andrew, shout out. I played it for him and he said, if I wanted a Timbaland or Pharrell production, I would just go to them. I wanna know what a Benny production sounds like.

And then I remember I went back to the drawing board and I said, what does a Benny production sound like? And I started making stuff and it was really weird. It was really quirky. And at the beginning, nobody understood it. They didn't get it. I didn't get those like short-term placements, but I created something that down the road, after many, many failures and bumping my head against the wall, something clicked and I became my own person. I became something unique. And people aren't always looking for something different and unique.

The easy, they can slot in something like that's gonna work in the moment, but that's like low-hanging fruit. You don't wanna be low-hanging fruit. You wanna be that diamond in the rough. You wanna be that needle in the haystack. And to achieve that, you have to put yourself out there in ways that might show your bum for a little bit. And it might be a little embarrassing and it might not get the results or the response that you want right away. But if you're doing something that's special and you're not just following, then that's where you can get those explosive returns that you want.

Have you ever embarrassed yourself really badly in front of a big manager, decision maker, artist? Can you tell us an example? You know, the first time I worked with SZA, I could have gone in there and I could have played her beats that some other guy could make way better than me and tried to just get one on her project. But when I went in there, I wanted to hear her do a ballad because I knew, and with guitar, because I knew, I hear her influences and I hear things that she hadn't totally done yet, but that she had done a little bit.

Like, you know, she had made, you know, supermodels. She had done records that sounded like that a little, but I wanted to make something that I knew she was not only capable of, but could do better than other people that do in that other genre. I mean, SZA is a true, true leader. She is not afraid to fail. She will do stuff that's what she wants to do. If everyone's going left, she's going right. And that's what a great artist does. So I've played things for people that would embarrass the hell out of me.

You know, and sometimes people are like, no, next. To Selena, I say what's on my mind, whether it's not the cool macho thing to do, I say like, I miss you. Like, I really could use some extra cuddles or hugs right now. And maybe that doesn't make me sound like the coolest guy in the world. And sometimes, oh, babe, I'm feeling, you know, really vulnerable right now. And I could use your like motivation and you're so good at talking to me. And I don't have to be the strongest guy in the room with the Superman cape on.

I could take that cape off and use it as a tissue if I need to every now and again. Okay, so maybe that would leave me embarrassed in a room. I could be in a business meeting with like guys talking about like investments. And I might say, hey, I don't know what that means. Can you guys explain that to me? I don't need to know everything in every moment. I don't need to be a know-it-all. I might say, what are we talking about here? Sorry, I'm just not well-versed in this.

And it might make me seem to be like, you don't know what a blah, blah, blah tax return is? And I honestly know I have no idea what it is. And I might make a little joke about it too. And I'm not afraid to do that. And I'm not afraid because what? I'm just gonna pretend I know what everyone's talking about. It's okay to not be fully educated on something. It's okay. It's okay to ask questions. What does Selena say to you when you say I'm not feeling motivated or I'm feeling vulnerable?

She'll either say something super inspirational, or she'll say, me too. Yeah, and I'll just sit there, watch a movie or something. She's like a silver linings girl. She's always guides me to the silver lining. And I'm very optimistic. But in certain times, maybe you're not. And she always puts everything into perspective in a great way. And you need a partner that can do that for you. Sometimes I think people who are successful or trying to be successful, they don't revel in their own wins. Like they try to act like, it's like, oh, like your song went number one.

It's like, oh, okay, cool. It's like, no, that's really fucking cool. Don't be too cool to like revel in your wins. Yeah, you just won a championship. That's awesome. Go celebrate. Tell your friends. Some people are so focused. And I've been guilty of it when I was younger, of just like focusing on the next thing and the next thing. You're gonna have a time in your life where you're not on top. And you'll be like, whoa, why didn't I take the time to really savor that moment?

Yeah, you were talking about the stool earlier. And I was thinking that that makes so much sense when you're in a good place in your life. But early in your career, you were working on the Britney Spears Circus album, and you wanted to step away. And you were told that you'd lose your credit if you did that. Talk to me about how balance was not possible at that time. I was in a situation where I was making an album. And I was working with some people, and I had a long distance relationship with a girlfriend.

And she was going to be in New York for a very short period of time. And that was like the only time she was gonna be there, and then she was gonna go back home to where she lived in Europe. I had to stay and work on this thing, this Britney Spears album. I remember telling everyone, I said, guys, I gotta go, I gotta go see my partner. And they said, okay, you can go, but if you go, we're gonna take your name off the song.

And I said, because I'm gonna go for two days? I'll be right back, I'll be right back. I'm gonna miss one day of work. And then the other day is a weekend. I'll be right back. They said no. And I remember standing up for myself in that moment. And I wasn't afraid. I was, but I was pretending I wasn't afraid. And I said, fuck you guys. I'm going to do this thing. If you wanna take it away, you can take it away. I know I'll be able to keep making great music in my life.

If you take it away, that's on you guys. Because me leaving for 36 hours to see someone I haven't seen in three months, and I'm probably not gonna see for another three months, I'm willing to take that risk. Because I needed to fill that part of my life up. What am I gonna do, stay there and be miserable? And I was like, take it away. And I know my worth. I know that I can create something great, truly spectacular. So take it away if you want.

And I remember I did it. And setting that boundary, I came back, it was fine. Nothing, when I came back, nothing happened. Still got that, got to do both things. Setting boundaries in your career and goals you're doing. And setting boundaries sometimes also for yourself. Like I set a boundary for myself where I say, every night I'm gonna make sure I eat dinner and have a meal with my wife, with friends, with myself, with whoever it is. Really take the time to have a dinner. And not just be like, scarfing something down in the thing.

Because that's important to me. And there's certain things, I made a boundary where I was like, I'm not gonna work on weekends anymore. Unless it's a deadline that I have to do. I mean, but that's. huge confidence at that point in your career. Like, that's a big album, it's a big artist. But I knew no matter what happened, I'd be okay. That's insane though, that's pretty impressive. But I never did anything for money. I was never about, so what's the worst thing that could happen? Okay, so I lose that opportunity, but I do what I thought was the right thing to do.

Yeah, I love that. And sometimes you can't please every single person, and you have to be okay with whatever the outcome is. Ultimately, I was okay. I mean, obviously, I was scared shitless. You know, when I did that, I really needed that song. I needed those songs. Those were like some of my first really big songs, and I needed that to happen. But, you know, I laid it all out on the table, and I made that decision. And sometimes making those scary, scary decisions work out for you.

Yeah. And it's like, I did it, I did it. This episode is brought to you by Ultra. Making space for ourselves matters. Having time and room to try new things. Our feet benefit from more space too. That's why Ultra Running Shoes feature UltraFit design, giving toes more room for comfort and balance, helping feet feel stronger. These aren't just running shoes. They're perfect for walking, hiking, any pace, any level. They feel right from the first step. Go to ultrarunning.com forward slash on purpose, and use code PURPOSE10 for 10% off.

That's a-l-t-r-a-running.com forward slash on purpose. Stay out there. That's what I love about your story in this book though, is that you've made scary decisions on one end on Britney Spears' Circus, huge artist, huge album, and then you make scary decisions because you want to make issues with Julia Michaels, even though so many other people want this song, and you choose to back an artist that's not really known at the time. Like, talk to me about that risk taking, because I think one thing is like, I'm going to lose a Britney Spears credit and an album, that's huge risk, but then the other risk is I've got a song that actually all the big eyes want, and I'm going to trust a newer artist.

Julia Michaels, at this point, starting to become a really big songwriter, okay? Her song just went number, Sorry by Justin Bieber just went number one on Billboard. I remember we like got her a cake and champagne, and she was really sad. I asked her why she was sad, and she was going through a really rough time, and she had just broken up with her boyfriend. I said, you know, let's write a song. We go in, we write a song with Justin Tranter and Stargate, and it just falls out of her.

It's magic, okay? It falls out of her, issues happens so quickly. She was not an artist, she was just a songwriter, and I didn't know this, but she was toying around with the idea of becoming an artist, and I remember the song was cut by so many people. So many people wanted this song, and she called me, and she said, I just signed a record deal, and I want this song to be the first song I put out. It's the first song I've written where I think it really is me.

It's me, and I feel weird giving it to someone else, and there was a lot of pressure from a lot of other people who wanted to give this song to other huge artists that wanted it, established artists at the time, like big, big artists that had number one records. I remember she said, please, she said, go fight for me for this song. She was only one part of the song, and I remember I really went to bat for her because I said, A, she's never done that before.

She's never come to me like that. B, she's really passionate about this, and who am I to tell, these words just fell from her lips. It was something she was really going through, and C, I felt the fire. I felt a fire. When someone has that fire behind them, I'm ready to go on the ride. I'm ready to roll the dice. I'm a risk taker. I've always been a risk taker. I'm always gonna bet on what I think is good, regardless of if it's a big artist, small artist, and it took a long time.

That took a lot of convincing, but everyone agreed. We give her the song. The song comes out. Song's a fucking huge hit. Launches her career. She has such a perspective, and that song had such a perspective, and I remember when she got nominated for Song of the Year at the Grammys. I was just like, wow. In that moment, it didn't click for me. I was like, wow, this song could have been anyone else's, and I don't even know if it would have become what it became because it felt so real coming from her, and yeah, of course, I could have taken that low-hanging fruit and had the song come out with some established artist, but there's nothing like breaking a new artist.

She was a brand new artist. Plucked out of obscurity, this was the first song she ever released, and then it becomes the number one hit on radio, and it's getting nominated for Grammys. We did it. We took that risk, and it was scary to take that risk. There were people telling me, like, are you crazy? Give it to this person, but we did it, and we went with our gut, and we trusted our instincts, and we did what we thought was right for the song and didn't take that cheap thrill.

Those are my favorite types of stories, to hear that, like, the risk that was taken, the personal sense of the song. Is it true that you don't have a Grammy? I think I might not have one. I don't think so. I don't think I technically have a Grammy. Does that feel like a failure? Someone else isn't gonna justify what's failure or success to me. Sometimes you get in the room with someone. I have plenty of people that I've gotten in the room with them. We've made songs, and nothing ever came out, but we became great friends, and now I'm friends with that person.

We have memories. That's not a failure to me. Sometimes a song fails, you learn something from that song, and you put it in your next song. That's not a failure to me. I guess it would be cool to get one, but I'm not really staying up late at night being like, oh my God, I gotta get one. Yeah, I'm sure I've been nominated a lot of times. I don't think about that type of stuff. I think about, do I love this? Do my friends love it?

My friends liking something is way more important to me. What was something that you thought was your biggest failure that turned out to be your biggest win? When we made Diamonds with Sia, I remember Stargate was sending it to Rihanna, and I was like, really? I don't know about this song. I guess I trust you guys. I was trusting my collaborators. They sent it in, and then a guy named Tata that works with Jay-Z made one change that made it really good, and then they worked on it, and I was like, oh, it's good, and then I remember we got the demo back after Rihanna sang it, and I was like, oh my God, this is so good.

How did I not see this? And then it was a huge number one, and that goes to not always thinking you have all the answers. I don't have all the answers, and I trusted the people around me, and I listened, and I took advice, and I took criticism, and I could've easily tried to shut the thing completely down, but I listened to the people around me. How do you know when to listen to the people around you and when to ignore them? In the studio, a long time ago, we were writing a song, me, a bunch of big songwriters.

We got stuck on the last line of a chorus. My friend was in, not a songwriter, nothing, was in the other room and said, hey, what about this? And we said, oh, that's not bad, and we put it in the song, and this person has no songwriting credits at all. And then Jim Class Hero's Ass Back Home, and he just said, what about Get Your Ass Back Home? And we couldn't think of the line, and he's never written another song after that, and that's his only songwriting credit, and he made a ton of money off it, and he's just our friend.

And that's why no idea is better than the other person's idea. Someone can have a stroke of genius at any moment. Benny, in the book, you talk about how at one point in your life, you were successful in your career, but you were physically and mentally failing. Oh yeah. Talk to me about the darkest day, the hardest day that you've lived. I was probably like 20, and maybe I was 21. You know, I wasn't prepared. Everything came at me so fast. I had no stool going on, no work-life balance.

Like, it was all work. I was just so into working all the time, and I was surrounded by people who did the same thing, staying up for days and days on end. And it got to me. It all got to me. I remember I went home to visit my mom. I was like in bed, and I was like crying, and I was like, ugh. I was like, I just don't think I can do this anymore. And I was just like, anything, like life, like anything, I wasn't able to handle it.

And I was doing so well career-wise, so nobody knew. And the way that music happens is sometimes your songs come out way after you make them. So to everyone else, I was pumping songs out, but I was in bed for six months, couldn't get out of my own way, had agoraphobia. I was scared to do anything. My tics were through the roof. My anxiety was through the roof. I used to walk around with my hand held like this because I thought if I took it away, my neck would dislocate and it would fall off my head.

I started seeing a therapist and started doing cognitive behavioral therapy, and I started getting my life in order, and I started setting boundaries for myself where I wouldn't work past a certain time to the outside world, it looked like I had everything. But to the inside world, I was crumbling. I think that happens a lot. I think people look at other people because on Instagram, everyone's posting, they're having the best time, they're on vacation, they're doing this, they're doing that, they're like, ha, ha, ha. But some people are fucking hurting.

In the beginning, I was hiding it from everyone, and I thought I had to be this macho, carry the world on my back, but you don't have to do that. I learned it the hard way, but I vowed from that moment that I would never, ever put myself in a situation where I don't put my health, my mental health first. When was the last time you cried out of pain, loss, grief, stress? I was stressed. I was working a lot. I was on a few deadlines.

Usually, I space everything out enough, but the way it all landed, occasionally, maybe once or twice a year, it lands all at the same time. I remember sitting there, and I was just in the shower, like real, real dramatic cry on the shower, like your head's against the wall, you're like doing the thing, so I'm somehow crying in the shower. It feels so good. It's like a movie. It's like, and I was like, ha, and I was like doing like the uncontrollable cry. I remember I got out, and I told Selena, and I said, how am I gonna do all this stuff?

And you know, business is so crazy because someone will tell you, it's like, hurry up, hurry up, we need to do this, and then like you do it, and then everything stands still. It doesn't get put out till like way later. It's like this rush to just wait, and I don't know if it's like that in your world, but it is in my world. We're like rushing, rushing. So sometimes you gotta be like, you know what, hold the fuck on. Yeah, I'm like that too. And I gotta see what's really going on, and I take a step back, and I learned this in therapy.

Sometimes you literally have to take your chair out, stand up, and I actually walk away. I walk away from the situation. I literally will be sitting there, writing everything down, and I say, you have time. You have time. Pull yourself together. Figure out which things are the most important. Time management, I think, is so important in success, and understanding what things take priority, what things can wait a second, and being able to read the room, and read a situation, and get your affairs in order, I think is like one of the most important things in becoming successful.

I think it's so important, because you can get, even me, I've been doing it for 20 something years. I got overwhelmed in that moment, and it took over me, and I couldn't do anything. It made me completely unproductive. I wasn't thinking about anything, and all it took was me stepping away from the situation, gathering my composure, realizing, okay, maybe this isn't as important right now. Maybe this thing, you're gonna slip. You can't please everyone. You don't have to go to six dinners with your friends. You don't have to do that.

You don't have to be a superhero to everyone. You can protect yourself in that moment. You can protect your sanity. You can protect your workflow, and it just took some rejiggering, and then I figured it out. If I hadn't failed in so many situations, I hadn't failed when I was 20 years old, and had to go to therapy to learn that toolbox that I have in cognitive behavioral therapy where it's okay to let some people down. It's okay to step back. It's okay to say no.

Saying no is so important. I used to think I had to please every fucking person on planet Earth, but really what you're doing is you're saying yes to something, and then you're like dragging your feet on it, maybe not doing it in the long run, and then you're just saying no to them way later, and then making them more upset. Sometimes it's more powerful in that moment to say, you know what? Honestly, I have too much shit on my plate right now, and saying yes to you right now, I might do it half-ass.

I might never do it in the first place and just drag it out forever. It's gonna do a disservice to your work, my work, our friendship, and then no is actually the nice thing to say in that moment. The power of no is so important, and you have to be confident in yourself to say no. Couldn't agree with you more. I think that's a big part of. learning in life is getting to be able to say no to stuff. It's like it's so easy to just keep saying yes to people, opportunities.

Benny, it's been amazing to talk to you as always. I love having you on the show. You're a great friend. You're incredible to talk to. You're unbelievable at what you do. You're an amazing storyteller. This book is full of amazing stories and advice that I can't wait for people to read and listen to. And I think people can have fun listening to this book because as I was reading it, I was like, oh, this is Benny's voice? This is going to be a lot of fun.

Yeah, I'm excited for that. I will tell you this. I didn't need to write this book. Like, it wasn't a thing I had to do. Like, I wasn't doing this. This isn't like a money play. I wrote this book because I wish I had a handbook when I was trying to make it on the do's and don'ts. And I wish I had that little, like, voice over my shoulder because this is real shit. It's not from a guy who, like, wrote a textbook. Like, I actually did it.

I failed. I've succeeded. I've succeeded in so many ways that I never thought could be possible. I've really come out the other side and I've seen both sides of it. I've been at the lowest of lows and I've been at the highest of highs. And I took every piece of information I had in my journey along the way from myself and all my friends and I put it into a book. And I did it because people always come to me and ask me for advice. So now I can say, just get the book.

You know what I mean? And if you see me in the street and you read the book and you still have questions, I'll answer them. I love that. That's your energy. Benny, we end every episode with a final five. Okay. These questions have to be answered in one sentence. Okay. You've done this before. So I changed the questions. So the first question is, what is your favorite memory with Selena? I'm like very allergic to bees. And I got a bee sting. And I had to take like a very high level of Benadryl.

And I couldn't keep my eyes open. And I was exhausted. I was like falling asleep for like 12 hours. I remember just like laying in bed with Selena. And after I had like woken up and I like starting to feel good. We spent like a full 24 hours in bed, just talking, laughing, sleeping, cuddling, and just being just existing. And there's no outside world, no anything. And I remember looking at her, I said, I could do this for the rest of my life. Like, as long as someone was like sneaking food under the door, and like our family came by every few, you know, weeks to say hi, I could stay in this room with you and feel peak happiness.

And I don't need to do anything else or see any other person for the rest of my life. And she said she felt the same. I think it was the best day of my life, maybe besides our wedding. And it was so simple. There was nothing there. We just sat there. That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Second question that I wanted to ask you is, tell us the story about the dirty feet on Friends Keep Secrets, and the lack of showers. Explain yourself. I'm trying to save you here, Benny.

It was a Dave's floors happened to be dirty. I'm gonna I'm gonna take I have no idea. Let's see. We're gonna see if your feet are still dirty. Are they dirty? No, they're clean. Yeah, I can verify they're very clean. But again, it happened in that moment. I don't care. I care. 0%. They're usually clean. I guess they were dirty that time. Occasionally they're dirty. I like to walk outside with no shoes on. Yeah. So I got snung by a bee on my foot. Oh, is that Oh, my God.

All right. Question number three. What did it feel like to become the internet's boyfriend the last time you were here with Selena? And the comment section was like, I want a Benny. It's funny. I didn't even see it. My mom was the first bricks. I don't really like I'm definitely not looking at stuff of myself online. And then you know, people started sending it to me. I thought it was sweet. It made me feel good. I'm sure there's equally terrible disgusting things about me online as well.

But I try to treat my partner I try to treat all my friends I try to treat everyone I come in contact with love and grace and I try not to judge people and like, of course we're human and we do stupid things and we say stupid things all the time. But I just try not to be a hater. Like there's so many people out there so much hate and so many people being like cruel in the world and talking and it's so easy to talk poorly about someone.

It's just as easy to like say something nice to someone. I wish the world was just a little bit nicer just like try to say something nice to someone if you see someone in the street especially if you see someone who looks like they need it or your friend or yourself look in the mirror like try to be nice to yourself and everyone else around you. I think what it actually did was that interview was so viral whether it was TikTok Instagram YouTube it was so powerful because I think everyone got to understand what masculinity can look like and what love can look like and that it wasn't this weakness and that it wasn't this lack of power in a relationship to actually care about what your partner thinks wants and feels.

I feel like maybe it was a little bit of a breath of fresh air to like these like macho like that like nice guys finish last thing like a dickhead wrote that like an asshole wrote that like nice guys finish like first I'm finishing okay and I try to be nice to everyone. You're a nice guy and you got Selena Gomez. Yeah you don't have to be like a butthole like just be a nice guy. Don't be a yeah you have that chapter in the book.

Yeah exactly exactly. Question number four what's a failure that you worry about for the future? I don't want to fail in a big way for the people closest to me my wife my family when I have kids and of course I'll have micro failures but I don't want to have like massive failures I want to be a good parent I want I think like being on your deathbed and be like damn I didn't do everything I should have done you know they always say the same thing my mom worked in in an assisted living home and she said every person says the same exact thing they wish they spent more time less time working and more time with their friends and family I just try to do that as much as I can now.

And fifth and final question because I know your friends are so important to you what makes a good friend? Someone who tells the truth to you. Someone who can make you laugh someone who can make you cry. And someone who can inspire you to be better maybe someone who can cook a good meal. You basically described yourself. No no no no. All Benny ever does when he comes over he goes Jay what have you eaten for dinner today? Yeah you know you had yesterday. I told you about it.

Yeah pistachio crusted tofu. I had vegan ricotta with carrots. I had a mint pea mint soup last night. Last night I had a really good dinner. Was that all last night? That was all last night yeah because I had a friend over for dinner so I you know. So you brought out all the bells and whistles? Yeah I brought out all the you know yeah so. Oh man I want to eat that meal. Yeah it was good it was good. I wish you had leftovers. It was really good I'll check actually if you want some yeah I'll check.

See guys we're really friends outside of this. I'm gonna go raid his fridge and eat some pistachio. You've been here a few times. I have I have you've always been good in that. I'm gonna go check we might. You're a good friend. I'll go and check. The book's called F Failure. Benny I'm so proud of you congrats. Oh yeah sorry go on you say it. Don't say it don't say it. The book is called. Fuck. Failure. Yeah. Go grab your copy Benny thank you man. Enjoy the honeymoon.

Thank you.