Josh Brolin: What I Learned from 20 Years Without a Big Role

Key Takeaway

Use the work that scares you as a training signal. When Josh Brolin faced a role that made him doubt he was good enough, he responded by studying, rehearsing repeatedly, and preparing intensely—then letting go when it was time to perform. Today, choose one meaningful task you have been avoiding, define a small preparation block, and do one focused rehearsal rather than waiting to feel confident.

Episode Overview

Josh Brolin reflects on a career shaped by a difficult upbringing, early success in The Goonies, two decades without a defining role, and a later breakthrough in No Country for Old Men. He discusses craft, failure, preparation, curiosity, integrity, and the value of continuing to pursue challenges that expose what you are capable of.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Josh Brolin: What I Learned from 20 Years Without a Big Role from How I Built This. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

I auditioned for No Country and the response was, "Who lit her?" They didn't even mention me. Although they liked how it was lit. The role was originally Heath Ledger's, and he had dropped out of the role, and they said, " Okay." And they faxed me six scenes . I had to be there at 9:00 the next morning and I... I was... Hi, I'm Guy Roz and this is The Great Creators, where I bring you conversations with musicians, actors and artists at the peak of their careers.

And my guest today, actor Josh Brolin. Josh Brolin is one of the most recognizable actors of his generation. They know his face and definitely know his voice from movies like The Goonies, No Country for Old Men, True Grit , Avengers, and Dune. But what they probably don't know is Josh's fascinating and difficult life story. His father is the actor James Brolin. But despite having a famous father, Josh's life was not easy at all. Josh has written about his fascinating off-screen life story in a new memoir.

It's called From Under the Truck. And without further ado, here is my conversation with actor Josh Brolin. Did you know? The 50s have been amazing so far. Your 50s are like " [ __ ] it all" mode. Yes. Your 50s are like all the things you were afraid to do and you just say "[ __ ] it ". I truly believe that. I truly believe it. I think that at 40 you start to feel mastery over what you do, whatever skill set you've adopted. It's true.

And certainly in your life, you really begin to achieve this mastery as an actor, right? And for me, in my profession as an interviewer , I've been doing this for 25 years. And then I feel that at 50 is when you really start to feel comfortable in your own skin. Is that, is that, has that been your experience? Are you starting to worry less about the simple fact that your skin exists? It's not your skin. It's like...now I understand. I can see now that even though I presented myself as a rebel who said "[ __ ] you," I don't care what you think.

And the stronger that is, the more obvious it becomes how much you care. And then, because there was a child who looked at me. I was leaving a parking lot yesterday, and I grew up partly in Santa Barbara, and you know, it's very difficult to tell a story about Montecito and then say that it was a difficult time and all that, because people think it's just a group of rich kids and all that. So , I was leaving this parking lot, after seeing a physical therapist for my ankle, and this guy was great.

There was a group of boys who looked about 18 or 19 years old. And this guy got a little scared because I was behind him, but I was going super slow, waiting for them to move out of the way. And he stared at me intently . I rolled down the window and simply said, " Are you staring at me?" And he said, "Yes." And I said, "Because you thought I was going to run you over." And he said, " Yes." And I said, "I'm not going to run you over." And he replied, "Thank you." And it was a very strange exchange because normally it would be one of those situations where, in your teens, you'd say, "What the hell are you looking at?" You know what I mean?

And at least where I come from. But now, I simply have nothing left to prove. You just say, "Look, I could come down and fight, but I don't want to fight you." "I want you to know that I understand you were scared, and I'm sorry I scared you." Basically. I thought, I thought when you rolled down the window and said, "Are you staring at me?" And he said, "Yes." "And you said, 'Why?'" "He was going to say, 'I love No Country for Old Men.'" "I mean, I thought that's where the story was going." I thought, "Wow, what a precocious teenager." It's not good to admit it, and I admit it often, it's something I remember De Niro saying about Times Square.

He said that the reason you're recognized, for the most part, is because you want to be recognized, that there's something about you, but if you're a good enough actor , you should be able to go unnoticed anywhere. And this is like during the Raging Bull era and all that, I was saying I could go down to Times Square and just blend in with the people. I have always been able to go unnoticed. That's it , and I don't mean to sound like a bully, but you know, I know I have a Neanderthal-like face, so I know I can keep people away...

face whatever, jawline, but even now, as I have a bit of a cold and see my eyes puffy, I can keep people away if I need to, just by staring at them. Do you know what I mean? But I don't think it's so much that, I think you can fit in if you want to, and I've never... wanted not to fit in. Yes. So, okay, let's dive into this because I think, and this will be a topic... certainly early in this conversation, that a lot of people assume things about actors' children now.

Uh-huh . That they live a certain way or that they have privileged lives, and in some cases that may be true, right? If you were, you know, Taylor Swift's son—she doesn't have children, but that would be a certain life. But ...but... not necessarily. Exactly, not necessarily. It depends on the father, right? It does not depend on the bank account. It depends on the father, right? First of all, you certainly grew up on farms for the first part of your life. I mean, Paso Robles, the Santa Barbara area, what we call Central California.

It's the central coast, more or less. Yes. And how present was your dad? How much was he around while you were growing up? Because he was already, well, he wasn't a household name, but he was famous. He was famous for a show he did called Marcus Welby. So before that he wasn't famous. Before that it was a film, a role here, another there, and there wasn't much money. My dad was a middle-class guy. My mom didn't come from a wealthy family; they were teachers in Corpus Christi, Texas.

So there wasn't much money. And then my dad, he was like Friends in his time. He said that , literally, in a couple of weeks, it was the number one show. But even then...the most he was paid for that show was $11,000 per episode, which was a lot of money back then. But it wasn't Peter Falk-style money . You know, like when Peter Falk's lawyer said, "You're sick and you're not , you know, and you're okay when I tell you you're okay." "Because he came across the producers' financial breakdown and realized how much money they were making.

Peter Falk and Colombo went from making $10,000 per episode to $175,000 per episode. So it was still a little while before that happened. But, and I remember it. I remember the fame because my dad is, you know, I'd go so far as to say he's introverted, and I think the fame confused him and irritated him. Yeah. Um, but I think the confusion is really what it was. So my experience with my dad, the attention that was given to my dad, was a negative thing. And then I also had a mom who said we didn't need to live here if we didn't want to.

Now everyone's like that. Oh, you can live far away. You can live, you can live in Point Dume. You don't have to live in the valley. Whatever. That was the version of it. So my mom said, ' Let's go to Paso Robles.' I'm a country girl." So my address was Route One, Box 71A, which is rural, and I grew up surrounded by rural people. So it was good. She was surrounded by far fewer actors than by country folk and westerners, and horses, and yes, lots and lots of horses.

I mean, the most we ever had was 65 horses, but it was horse country. It is now known as wine country. There were two wineries when I was there. Now there are 390 or whatever, but it used to be a rural farming community and a horse community. You grew up, I mean, you were a child in the 70s and a sort of teenager in the 80s, but you paint a picture of, I suppose it's fair to say, a rather complicated upbringing. I mean, obviously you loved your mother.

It was complicated. Your parents' marriage was complicated. Your mom also had a relationship with this guy. Tell me a little about what you remember from your childhood in that world that surrounded you. I mean , I was at the heart of it all. That's the question. I mean, it's , you know, I'm still dealing with it, I don't know if it happened to you with your book, probably not, but as it is, you know, in quotes a memory of what the book is about. You know, people start receiving the book and they start telling you what...you know, someone crying, someone saying they're envious, someone saying, you know, I think I can say something for sure, and that is that my mom created in me what she looked for in a man.

You already know. So she wanted the drunken cowboy, the tough fighter, who would take on anyone, you know, man, and what she considered a man. And she was so loud and kind of uh sociable and fun, but she also just didn't know when to stop, which was also a trait that I continued after she passed away. Um, but you know, being around cowboys, being around truckers, being around, you know, driving 50, 60,000 miles a year, which she did because she didn't fly, you know, waking up in the middle of the night and waking us up and saying, "I want a hamburger." "And we like," We have school in 3 hours.

"And she says," It doesn't matter. Get in the car and drive two and a half days to go get a hamburger. "It doesn't sound crazy. It is. Yes. But it was more about the adventure. Even my dad says so now. My dad says, 'Your mother would wake me up in the middle of the night and I would get very irritated.'" But within a few hours, we were doing something so crazy and fun, and I was on the hood watching tarantulas climb up a hill from a pond, and how did she know that was going to happen!

"It was just like my mom was always looking for the most vivid experience, and she didn't do drugs. You write in the book that my father was afraid of my mother. Yes. So he mostly stayed away. So I think over time, yes. So what did that mean? Like, were there weeks or months when he would leave? No, I don't think months. I mean, he would say, like, look, I take my family to every job I go on. There was only one job I did, and it was recently when I went to London for two weeks, and I did n't take them.

And, uh, and, and, I didn't like it. I probably won't do it again , at least not until they're well established in school and it's normal. Whereas, I think back then it was more like, 'Hey, I have to go to work.' Yes. This is what men do. They have to go to work. So when my mom moved to Paso Robles and my dad was, you know, doing a series, he had to be down there . And I think he really did It was an effort, a valiant effort to get up to Paso Robles.

Let's say he'd work until 10:00 on Friday night, get in his car at 11:00, arrive in Paso Robles at 3:00, fall asleep, sleep for 3 hours after working all week, 12 hours a day, and then spend time with his kids. Well, after a while, that starts to, you know, wear you down. It starts to affect your work and all that kind of stuff. So, I think it wasn't just because of my mom, but my mom was a big excuse for wanting to distance myself from her because it's, it's the truth.

I saw it in every relationship my mom had, whether it was a friend, someone she slept with, or someone close; you either loved her or you hated her, and usually both, it depended on the moment. And then there was you and your brother Jess. Mhm. And how, how did he... I mean, obviously being kids, you know, it's hard to imagine going back to what that dynamic was like. But what's your impression of how he saw things? around? It's like, again, it goes back to personality, and you know, with my mom, which I don't think helped me when I went out into the world and started dealing with people.

They'd tell me I was a very well-mannered kid, which I was n't, you know, maybe that was my mom's Texas thing: "Thank you" and this and "Chew with your mouth closed" and all that kind of stuff. But I know that later, you know, maybe it was when the drinking started, it started to come into play, which was pretty early. Um, you know, I was someone who naturally fought back because, well, I'd look at my mom and my dad. I think , I think I'm making this up, but I'd look at my mom and my dad and think, who's going to win?

Who's the most resilient? Who's going to overcome the obstacle? It's my mom. Obviously, they'd yell at her while she was watering the plants and "loose this, loose that," you know what I mean? And I'd be like, "Well, you need to act more like her," while I think my brother was more... he didn't want to fight. He wasn't going to the war, and I was going to the war to save myself, you know? And with my mother, I remember my father saying it, and it sounds awful, and you know, they both had their impatience; there was an air of impatience about both of them.

One was quiet, and the other was extremely loud. And I liked the loud one because he knew where he stood. I did n't trust the quiet one because he didn't know where he stood... you know, he was too evasive for me. But with my brother, I just don't think he... I do n't think he wanted to fight . I mean, we're close now, and we talk about it. You know, my brother likes things very simple. He doesn't want to complicate his life at all. And he's stayed that way.

He's 52, and he says, "I'm fine." I'm fine. " I found a life design that works for me." He's super funny, very sarcastic. You know, there's a lot of humor, inappropriate humor, that comes out of this family. I'm sure it's compensation for what it was, and we carry on with it, if that makes sense." Yes. No, he does have it. And we've had a lot of actors' children on the show who are also actors, and I think that makes a lot of sense because it's like, you know, a lot of great athletes are the children of great athletes.

There must be some genetic connection, right? It's like you have that talent, but everything in your life up until the time you were a teenager, really up until you were 15 or 16, wasn't leading you in that direction. You weren't the kid who said, "I want to be in High School Musical ." That wasn't who you were at all. Quite the opposite. I had no interest. I had absolutely no interest . When I became an actor, my friends were confused. It just wasn't something... I loved law in high school, even though I did a lot of stupid things in school.

I loved law. I participated in Youth and Society. I studied Law from year 1 to year 4. I was very , very interested in law, especially criminal law . So instead, I became a criminal. You know, I mean, there were things I wanted to include in the book. You haven't read it because you haven't gotten there yet, but I know you've read part of the book. I mean, that's what I mean, but you know, there's a restaurant I used to work at in Santa Barbara called Rocky Glennies, and I loved it.

I mean, absolutely, it was an open kitchen. I loved the feeling. I loved drama. I love the theatrical aspects of that. So for me, acting was about getting people to pay attention to you when you didn't want them to, about something that had more to do with them than with you. Yes. And then, I took a drama class at school, and it was based on improvisation. I went up on stage, and the teacher, Mary (I don't remember her last name), chose me first, and said: "Go up on stage, create a character, any character you want, and the audience here in the seats will ask you questions, and you answer as the character." "And when I did that, something changed.

I thought, ' Oh, this is like molding fresh clay .' This is behavioral. This is something I did n't know, something I didn't associate with acting at all. What I associated with acting was fame, television, and people chasing after you." I did n't know it was a behavioral study. I didn't know that's what it was about . And I think now, you know , whether they're children of actors and, you know, me, even, and I won't tell you whose house I went to. Someone invited me to their house and they are, they have been famous for a long time.

And it was the weekend. Well, I can't imagine having help over the weekend. What would you need it for? Especially if three or four people come. But we brought them some croissants and all that. And, and, and he shouted to perhaps a housekeeper or assistant and said, "You know, Maria, I want this one." " This looks delicious or whatever. I want this one." I was like, " Why don't you just open the damn box and grab the croissant?" I mean, I don't understand that mentality. I never understood that mentality because what I learned at that time, it wasn't something conscious, was that acting and creating is somehow reflecting the hidden behaviors of, you know, the human race and that's what we're representing.

And to distance yourself from the human race to become a drone within your fame, your power , your money, your status or whatever, is to distance yourself from that which you represent. It doesn't make sense to me. How do I stay in the mix? How do I continue in the cauldron so I can properly represent what I'm representing? It's interesting, because I know you basically said that whatever fear you had, right? Any fear you had of being on stage evaporated when you could embody a character, when you were something that wasn't necessarily you .

You were something, weren't you? It's you. But because at that moment you embody a character, for some reason you didn't feel that fear , that panic on stage, unlike writing a book, you know, where you feel it's 100,000% you. And it has been the most terrifying process I have ever gone through, without a doubt. But again, as we were saying before, when you reach 50 you say: "To hell with it." I want to make sure I open up all my wounds, not just to vomit them up on others, but to explore them thoroughly and see more of what I'm made of.

And so, to answer your question, um, yes, there is something on the stage and I still have it. You know, I just performed something in London for Ryan Johnson and it was really wonderful; It was something I needed to scare myself, and it was a role that frightened me . It was a piece of paper that I read and said, "I do n't know if I'm good enough to do this." Which was great, you know, I didn't want to be comfortable. I studied, I prepared, I read it more than a hundred times; I would rehearse it in my hotel room and receive calls from reception asking, " Could you please be quiet?" It's 2 in the morning.

And, you know, I felt like a kid again doing theater, and that's how I want to feel. But when you go out and just say, "Hey, just be yourself." You reply: " What does that mean?" I'm being myself with you right now. Is it particularly dramatic? That's why writing a book is scary, because you write about your own thoughts , about yourself, and it's very revealing. Whereas through a character, you can use yourself, but through , you know, someone else's idiosyncrasies. So, you moved to Los Angeles.

I think you basically moved in with your dad, right? I moved. I didn't move there. I was kicked out of my house. They kicked you out of your house, your mom. Yes. Uh, and I mean, because you were, I mean, getting into a lot of trouble. I think it's fair to say that. Oh, and when you moved to Los Angeles at that time, were you also thinking about pursuing acting? So, was that it? No, it was that I wanted to... The motivation was to do something different.

So, I had been interested in it before when I was a child like everyone else, but I got really into martial arts. I was studying with a guy named Jun Chong who was near where I slept on the couch. My dad lived with his future wife and I slept on the couch and they were in an apartment. And again, you think, "Oh, he's my dad, so he must be in a mansion," you know, but it's like any perception that people, you know, assign to an actor and what he does.

"And, you know, I remember my dad at some point was in an apartment complex in Pacific Palisades and it was just housing a bunch of old-school actors from the '70s. I remember visiting him. It was like his lowest point. And I was like, ' Oh, I remember you from the '70s.'" I remember you from the 70s. How sad is this? This is so weird. It's such a strange time. How did they all end up in the same apartment complex? " Uh, but what were we talking about?

You moved there. Oh, I moved there. Because you were 15, I think, around then. 16. Okay. Yeah. I was 16. I drove there in my Honda Civic and I, and, uh, I just wanted, I wanted something to change. I grew up with a group of guys who called themselves, or were called, Zito's Rats, and it was a surf culture, you know, and, you know, a lot of those people didn't make it. And some of those guys were, they were rich kids. No, no, I think some were alright, you know, well- off; one dad had a restaurant, you know, a Mexican restaurant, one dad was a dentist, another was a mechanic, and, well, it was a real mix of everything...and that was Monaceto then.

Now it's less like that. Monaceto was just a total mix; it was. Avocado trees and orange trees. That's totally true, so when I went there, I was like, what can I do? You know, I had missed 36 After 56 days of school in eleventh grade, I went and said, " I want to get my life in order." And I really wanted to. So, this acting thing, it was like, you know, I talked to my dad, and he said, "You can try to get an agent." And I went from agent to agent.

I called all these agents myself and made up a résumé. It was 100% a lie. I had found plays and started reading them and made up theaters like the International Theatre Labrero, which doesn't exist. And what was it like doing A Streetcar Named Desire at the Labrero Theatre? Oh my God, it was a huge production. I loved that director so much. And then, you know, I think everyone knew I was telling all lies. And there was this woman, Hillary Shore, from Leading Artists Agency. It was a very small agency, and she said yes and gave me a shot.

I went and auditioned for everything . And I was being told all over the place, "Don't do this, you're inexperienced," or "Oh, you're Brolin's son. You want to be an actor?" Okay, go ahead, perform. Let me see. Yes. Well, do you want me to do a monologue for you? Thank you for coming. That's what I was thinking. So there are a lot of people who also have an idea of ​​what it means if your father is an actor and they say, I don't want to be one of the people who help you, who give you another spoon.

Don't you already have a spoon? Yes. You know, that kind of thing, which for me was fine. We were talking about my brother earlier. For me, it just made me stronger to fight. I thought, I'm not going to let these people win. I'm sure you didn't feel like it was overnight, but, I mean, at 17 you got a pretty big role. I mean, a role that, of course, your first role, your first big role, a role that anyone from my generation remembers very well because it's a movie that's kind of important, an iconic movie for anyone who was a kid or teenager in the '80s: The Goonies.

You play Brandon Walsh. Uh, and I think that was, big Part of it was filmed in Oregon, right? In Oregon and California, in Northern California, Bodega Bay, and in Los Angeles in a studio. Some of those tunnels were in the studio, and the ship was in the studio. And the ship was there, yes, and, uh, you're 17 years old, you're in that movie. Sean Astin and all these other young actors...and, first of all, was there any way you knew that that movie...it was the '80s, it was different, a movie like that, I think you could probably have predicted it was going to be a hit, but there were also flops.

There were also movies like that that weren't successful. Did you get the feeling when you were working on that movie that it was going to become what it became ? I do n't think you ever get that feeling . You know, I've made enough movies that have become something. Each one is something different. No Country was something. Avengers is something, Sicario is something. Milk was something. But I don't know if we've ever felt it, I mean, you know, when you work with good people, But then when you get used to it, you know, having the opportunity to work with one great filmmaker after another, I don't know.

Maybe, maybe, perhaps you become desensitized to it. I don't know. But what is that one really special film? There wasn't one. And that's why in the book I compare The Goonies to No Country, because they're the two films that felt the most familiar, rather than doing something that was going to be iconic. You know what I mean? So I'd done a lot of auditions. I got The Goonies. That should never have happened. I just fit the part perfectly at the time, you know? And, and, and, you know, next to Sean Astin, I looked good.

I looked, you know, goofy, strong, blond, and whatever it took , and I was what was needed, and, uh... and it worked. You know, I didn't know what I was doing. It worked, but I thought that's how movies were made. I thought every movie was going to be like The Goonies. So, as far as success goes, you know, we were in It was a different time, too. It wasn't all about opening weekend. You see some great pictures. If you go online every now and then, someone sends me a picture of, you know , an old, you know, what's it called ?

The thing above the movie theater, what do they call it? The marquee. And then, a line that went around, you know , two blocks. Remember those lines? Yeah. You know, when you'd get there two hours early, two and a half hours early to see something and you couldn't wait, and they weren't bombarding you from all sides about what the story was about and all that, and it was just word of mouth, it was a really special time, very special. But after that, it got serious. Yeah.

I mean, I don't want to get ahead of myself , but just to wrap this up for a moment and then come back, it was about 20 years between The Goonies and No Country for Old Men, and obviously you made movies and had roles in between, but 22 years, and for a lot of people who saw No Country for Old Men... The weak ones were like, " Who is this great actor? Where has he been?" " Exactly, and you say things got serious after The Goonies, and I guess you mean it got serious and it wasn't like it suddenly became easy for you to get great roles.

No, it was work. I think I got Thrashing, which was the next thing and a pivotal job, because it launched me into ...when I saw it, I was like, 'I'm so bad I 'm hurting people, so I have to do something about it.' Like you said, 'I'm so bad I'm hurting people.' Tell me more about what you mean. Well, I mean, I was just awful in the movie. I was me, you know, there's no...when you have no idea what you're doing, but you think you do because you read Stanislavski, you read Grotowski and Antonin Artaud, and you think that helps when, honestly, to develop a skill, what you and I were talking about earlier, when you get to, you know, 40 and you have this understanding, or total mastery of whatever skill you're..." Developing something, you have to practice it.

You really have to do it. You can't , you know, read about how to, I don't know, glue a plane, a model airplane. You have to do it yourself and say, " Ah, screw the glue and all that." If you put too much glue on, it's going to drip and ruin that part or whatever. And even then, I didn't know what I was doing. So, at that point, I realized I needed to go study. And there was also someone who came into my life when I was 20, Anthony Zerby, who impacted me in a huge way and is still one of my best friends.

And he was a friend from the theater, right? Yes. He was a guy I was doing a series with with the Young Writers in Tucson, Arizona. And he, you know, would literally wake me up, open my door to go to work, and there would be eight books on my doorstep; different plays and things to read, painters, poets, this and that, and he would just... Is Anthony the same age as you? No, Anthony is 80, he's in his eighties. So many. So he was more of a mentor.

Yeah, but he was just my friend, man. I mean, yeah, he was a mentor in the broadest sense, you know, but he was just my friend. He was someone I connected with, and he connected with me. And he encouraged you to...? To try going on stage, to try theater, to go back to theater. Yeah. I was, you know, terrified of memorizing and all that. I had absolute terrors, you know, typical actor fears, and well, normally when you do a series... I was lucky enough to get a series that was...

it was the second series I'd ever done. And the first series was kind of a flop, and uh, and then I, I, uh, yeah, what you did was, you know, during the hiatus between seasons, if you were lucky enough to be between seasons knowing you were going to start another one, uh, you tried to do a film, because that's what you wanted to do then. You went from television and hopefully ended up in film, and maybe eventually At the end of your career, you'd end up back on TV just to make some money before you died.

And then, uh, you know, Anthony said, "No, come to Rochester, New York with me. I've got a couple of spots at, uh, the Jiva Theater, and you need to, you need to do plays . That's what you've got to do." And I listened to him. Um, you had, um, I think it was at that theater where you had something like a disastrous— not the word I want to use, but maybe that's the word I should use—opening night. Yeah, man. It was opening night. There were three new plays in rotating repertoire, and that's how it worked during the summer season.

Basically, like summer theater, three plays. I was in two of the three plays. Um, " Forgiving Typhoid Mary" was the one that kicked off the whole event. It was like, that's where they gave out grants to the writers, 5,000 each or whatever , and then, and then it opened with our play. Oh, "The Innocence" was the other play, and it was being directed by Joe, uh, Montello, who's now a great theatre director and a great actor, but that was the first play he directed. And then, uh, "Forgiving Typhoid Mary" had a big speech that sets up the whole play.

And they said, "Finally, let's get on with the play, and we've handed out these scholarships, and you know , here we are..." Oh, and the lights go down , and then the lights slowly come up, and Typhoid Mary is behind me in an amber light, and I walk out, in my cassock and my glasses, and I present the whole thing in the worst Irish accent you've ever heard. Not bad at all. I said, "Thank you." Thank you "." And I start this speech, and now it would be different, but I start the speech and I do something, you know, typical , I take off my glasses, clean them, look up and they just disappeared , and I'm looking at 700 people.

And I go and now I would say, "Oh, it disappeared." You can improvise a little. You can get it back. I still have another four or five pages to go. " And that sets up the whole play, like I said, without the speech the play starts to lose its meaning, and it just never came back. It was like an arrow to China, man. It was never going to come back. So I started, I remembered things from an early draft, I mean, I just started spitting out words, any English words that came out of my mouth.

It was just meaningless nonsense. And at least from my point of view, Anthony said, 'You're a playwright.'" That was the first thing he said. He ran behind the stage because I was sitting there. I was speechless. I just sat there. Finally, I ran off the stage. The light stayed on for too long. Then it shut down because they had to do it manually at that point, as they knew it was very lost. I went backstage. Both stagehands had their heads in their hands and then Zerby was there and said, "Nobody knows." "I said:" No, man.

Everyone knows it. So, you're my friend and you're lying to me because I still have the rest of the work to do. There's absolutely no way I'm going back out there. "And he says, 'I'm telling you, you're a playwright, you know, and nobody knew it.'" Nobody. " But who knows? I don't know. Probably I—I think I understand what you're saying now. And I think now, having seen so many works and participated in so many, what you think and what you're so sensitive to simply isn't the case.

And maybe they did n't know it, but they probably did. It was quite massive, you know? It looked like a group—I saw the heads— you know what dogs do with a high-pitched whistle? And I saw a few like, 'What's going on?'" "." So, I think some people did know . But it sounds like, I mean, you know, I hesitate to ask this question because it's a bit predictable, but did that change anything about how you approached your roles or how you thought about them? I mean, I'm sure you were very well prepared, right?

But, but, but it just happened. It was almost like a panic attack or something. No, it was something very specific. In fact, I remember it was right before I went on stage. I thought it was opening night. I had never experienced an opening night like that. And I thought of De Niro at the end of Raging Bull before going on stage practicing that monologue. And that's what he does. Mhm. And I said, "I want to be this comfortable." I know he was nervous. The character is nervous, at least in Raging Bull , he is encouraging himself and is ready to go out.

And I wanted to be that guy. So, it wasn't Josh preparing for a role. It was Josh wanting to be De Niro, wanting to be perceived as great in a role. And after that, I never did it again . Again, it was another level when I went to , to use my father's words, go to war with myself and not give myself a break. And to this day, like what I just told you about the Rian Johnson film, I still, I still talked to Tony Hopkins about this.

It's like there's still some fear in me that says if you don't prepare, something's going to happen. So I prepare myself, I prepare myself in a very intense way, and I believe I have the ability to let it go when I finally do . But I know those things at a cellular level. Yes. You worked constantly, from the Goonies era until today and even in No Country for Old Men. I mean , whether it's film or television. But I clearly understand that there was a moment in your life and in your 20s when...

I imagine you thought, "This probably isn't going to work." I mean, you left, you didn't leave, but for a while you became a stockbroker. He had to earn money. I had kids, my kids were going to school, and I just wasn't making money, man. I mean, no, you know, if you're lucky enough to earn 100,000 a year, which I didn't. If you're lucky, you'll have 30,000 left after taxes and fees. And if you have a lawyer and you have a representative and an agent and all those things that I had back then .

Um, but it just wasn't enough. So, you know, uh, I met a guy, Brett Markinson, on the plane. Me, me, me, uh, we really connected well. We laughed a lot and he, uh, he was trading on the stock exchange. It was part of what he did. He was entrepreneurial , but he operated and was very disciplined in that. And I was just curious. It was another thing to be curious about. I am in a profession that works very well for me because I am an insatiably curious person.

So I can delve deeper into these other mindsets or professions or this or that and then I can leave it at that. I don't have to do it for my whole life. I am very fortunate in that sense. I feel very blessed in that sense because I get to play all these different things. I feel like I 've lived 50 lives instead of one or two. And Brett Markinson was, uh, I, I absolutely, I still adore him to this day and, um, and he would talk to me about trading.

So he was a guy who loves to talk and loves to teach, and I'm a guy who is n't afraid to ask the same question 50 times until I understand. So I went and got Trade Station and I had my three screens and I had all my charts and I had four tabs per screen and, you know, you look at the stochastics and you look at this kind of stuff and I'm like, I don't know what this means. What does that mean? You know, support and resistance, and I don't understand, and where, how it turns, and why it turns, and all these things that are super boring to talk about because nobody cares about them as much as I do, you know?

And then, in addition to that, you know, eventually I'm also doing Wall Street, and I'm talking to all these billionaires, and I have all that knowledge. So I have, you know, this ability to be able to talk to them about finances and discipline and fear and greed and all this kind of stuff. It was an interesting thing for me to get involved in. And then I quit when I was really into it, which I'm not now. Um, I'm a long-term investor now. Don't try to do day trading, because if you do, you have to get up at 4:30 every morning, know your portfolio, and have done your, you know, due diligence for what you're going to trade that day since the night before.

And well, I earned more money than I'd ever earned acting, that's for sure. Oh. By far. Oh. And it wasn't just because I got lucky with a stock that went through the roof. I was very disciplined in the impulses of, you know, upward trend, pretty solid stocks. So I bought when it went down and sold when it went up. He bought when it went down and sold when it went up. Oh. So it seems that in 2007, well, the film was released in 2007 , No Country for Old Men, but when you got that role, had you already assumed that you would never, perhaps I do n't know, is it fair to say that you would never reach a certain level?

I was going to be a hard-working actor and that was fine with me. In other words, I had accepted it in the sense that I would continue to do it as long as it, um, fed me in some way. And I'm not referring to financially. Yes. I knew I could sort out the financial aspect. I knew I could support myself not only through acting. So I did the last television show I had ever done with Lawrence O'Donnell Jr., who is kind of like the protégé, um, what was his name again?

West Wing, you know, and he's the senior political analyst at MSNBC, and he's a very smart guy, and he did this thing called Mr. Sterling, which I was involved in, and, you know, we thought it would be a hit, and it wasn't, and I was stuck all over Times Square and Sunset Boulevard and all that, and once we got to, you know, Audra McDonald was on it, we had her on the show. Yes. Oh, I know they did . I know they did it. And Audra McDonald, and she'll tell you this, you know.

I was like, "Hey, I heard you singing." Because I'm so dumb and, like, I couldn't do a crossword puzzle even if, you know, and I just go or she says, "Yes, I sing a little." Without having any idea that he had won like four Tony Awards. Um, we did that and I said to myself afterwards, because television was so all-consuming at that time, making a series for a television network, that you didn't really put any care into it. no matter how hard you tried. And I said, I'd rather not act than do television.

And I never did television again until very recently. I didn't do television for 20 years. So again, for someone who needs to support their family, there was still a version of integrity, personal integrity, that was just based on, you know, my sensibility that I don't want to do that . Well, you know, you can participate in the dating game. Maybe they'll see you and you'll get a job because of it. No, take that money. You know, we're offering you a few million dollars to do this.

You just did No Country for Old Men. Yes, but I don't want to do that. Yes, but you need money, right? Yes, desperately. And it's been good. Everything turns out alright in the end. And the story is more interesting anyway. When you had the opportunity to work with the Coen brothers, first of all, I imagine that, as someone who studies and studied film and plays and read a lot, because I know that Zerby gave you all those things to consume. I imagine you were already a fan of his work.

You hadn't worked with them until that point, had you? No, I had never met them. I had never met them before. And yes, I was a fan of Fargo and I was a fan of, you know, Blood Simple, The Big Lebowski. Um, yes, but no, there was no one you could ask me back then: if you could work with a filmmaker, or in that case, two filmmakers, who would it be? I would say, if only I could work with the Coen brothers, my life would be great.

I didn't have that. I do n't have it yet. I wish I had it. If you had one role you could play, what role would it be? Don't know . What do you have? Let's talk about it. Um, but what, so, you know, I did it , and I'm not going to tell the story because I've already told it a million times. I auditioned for Grindhouse because I had a friend who gave me a role because he knew him, and that was Robert Rodriguez for Grindhouse.

And it was during Grindhouse that I auditioned for No Country. And the answer was who illuminated this. They didn't even mention me. Although they liked how it was lit. Um, and that was it. I didn't get the paper. And by the way , the role was originally Heath Ledger's, and he had dropped out of it. And because I was working too much and I had just finished Brokeback Mountain. He said, "I don't want to make another western." "And um, so my agent, you know, got Ethan's phone number and said, 'Please, check him out.'" "To him." And I know they were frustrated and were finally going to settle on someone they knew and trusted, and they said, " Okay, fine.

Let him come." And they notified me in Santa Barbara, I was at my son's school and they notified me at 10:00 and they faxed me six scenes and I had to be there at 9:00 the next morning and uh and I showed up because that's what you do when you're a working actor. It's like , hey, there's a possibility you might have to fly here, fly there, you have to drive here, you have to show up here, you know, everyone wants to evaluate you. Did you feel that, I have to imagine, I mean, given that it was an amazing year, right?

No Country for Old Men and then I think also the same year, American Gangster, but there was another movie that came out, There Will Be Blood, obviously not, you weren't in it, but two iconic, true western-type movies that came out that year, it was an incredible 2007, it's an incredible year for cinema , that experience, right? The film wins best picture, right? I mean, you're, I mean , it's nominated for eight Academy Awards, it's a huge cultural moment, right?, that year and I have to imagine that after that film your career and your life changed quite drastically.

He did it, he did it, people were more interested, as you know, I was swimming in the river with one arm, you know, away from the dog when I got the audition for American Gangster. Yes. So, I was working nights and I was up all night. I returned from Taos to Santa Fe in the morning and then recorded my own audition, at a time when people didn't record their auditions, for American Gangster, and my son, who was 16 at the time, played Denzel's part. So, you know, that was still happening, it's not like I didn't make No Country and people said that, there are movies I didn't get.

Yes. Uh, from directors not worth mentioning, but who said, "We're thinking of him for this role." Can we see No Country? Can we at least see a couple of scenes? And then, when they saw them, they said, not that I think they're wrong, but they said no . You know, it just doesn't seem to fit. I don't think it won't fit . I remember for one role they said I didn't have enough presidential bearing, and then I went on to play Milk and W. Yeah. So you know, I think it was after Milk and after I got nominated that things started to pick up, that the options started coming in.

And I mean, you were 40 years old at that time, right? And it's not to say it's old, it's just that you've seen so many of your peers over the years that it probably seemed like , oh, they're having success or whatever that means. And I imagine that at that moment in your life it felt quite rewarding, you know, because it was something difficult to achieve. It wasn't like it was difficult to achieve and it felt rewarding, but it never felt like a "finally". I never felt that way because I've never been that way, and I've never been that kind of person and I don't even know why.

And I feel bad for people who are jealous, but I've never been the jealous type. I've never been that kind of angry or resentful person . You know, I remember when Goodwill Hunting came out and I was so excited that Matt Damon existed. I thought, "God , that was so good." It was so good. So, I was excited about the performances. I was more excited about the performances than about the actor behind them, or how he or she was perceived. But I do know that, you know, it was frustrating because I was losing roles to people I did n't necessarily consider good actors.

And now we know that, look, bad actors can have great careers and great actors can have no career at all. You know, that 's the thing about our industry, you never know. It could be an appearance, it could be something, it could be a vibe, or it could be great technique, or someone like, you know, Anthony Hopkins, who got The Silence of the Lambs at 55, after having struggled so much, and then had a whole career from 55 to 85. It's a very good analysis... I think it's a very good example, you know, he's just one of the great living actors, right?

Literally one of the greatest living actors, and he was one even before that. I remember someone saying to me in an interview, "How does it feel to do a great job when you used to do a mediocre job?" And I was like, " Go to hell, dude." Who said I did a mediocre job? "It might come across as a mediocre film, but I gave it my all, whatever my skill level was. I never just went through the motions . I've never worked out of obligation. I never did anything different in No Country for Old Men than I did, you know, that day in Milwaukee when I wore the G-string and stockings.

Yeah. You know what I mean? And that's true, by the way. So how much is it down to luck then? I mean, I think you're right. True. Like, how much of what happens to an actor is just chance or luck? But it goes back to the nepotism you were talking about...the nepotism you're talking about. It's like, how far will nepotism take you ? If you can't make it, if you're lucky enough to be lucky, then what? You have to show up. You have to take initiative.

You have to be...if you're an idiot to work with and you're super talented but your movies don't make money, you're not going to work for very long. You know what What do I mean? It's just too difficult. And there's no reward . It's a business when it comes down to that. It's a business. You know, I love working hard, and I love collaborating with people who don't have huge egos. And I've been fortunate enough to discover that the best filmmakers out there have less... there's less compensation, you know, like a focus on status and a focus on perception and all that.

They just want to tell one great damn story, and they're obsessed with it. It's almost like they're a little bit on the spectrum. There are, there are, too many characters to delve into, but I want to see if we can briefly look at three of them, because, well, two of them are, I mean, Dan White and George W. Bush. As you know, I live in the Bay Area. So that one, the Milk one, is such an iconic story here. When you land at San Francisco Airport, Terminal One is the Harvey Milk Terminal, and there's a beautiful exhibit about his life.

And that character you played is a very complex character, and he's a villain, but it's not that simple. It's more It's more complicated than that. And George W. Bush, the same. It's a complicated story. Um, let me ask you about George W. Bush, because obviously there were people who hated that movie, people who felt it was an unfair portrayal of him, and so on, in the context of where we are today in history. I think there's been a reevaluation of him, fair or unfair, right? There's just been a reevaluation of his figure, especially in light of, you know, where politics has gone.

He's seen as a conventional, establishment figure, even, well, kind of sympathetic. And I'm wondering how you see it. I mean, does that matter? I mean, obviously you become him. You become that character. You adopt that West Texas accent. But do you have to like a character to actually, or like things about them to become them? I do n't know. I don't think about those things. I don't think about whether I like, I mean, do I like or dislike somebody? You know, I want I mean, there are things I like about people, and, you know, it's like everything good has some evil in it, and everything bad has some good in it, and that interests me.

Like, where is that which I can't see? I guess, you understand them in ways you couldn't have understood Dan White? That's the point, acting isn't, you know, I've heard it a lot, and I'd like to get to that someday. They say, "The only thing I like about acting is between 'action' and ' cut.'" And I'm like, "Really?" "That's the damn, that's the worst part, you know, and it's like, when you're in the zone and you're like, yeah, I've been in the zone . It's hard to concentrate and not see the camera right there and not be there, and I think that happens more now that I'm less aware of everything, you know, and I look forward to those moments, but I think it's the research of that." So everything ahead.

Yes. And that's like hearing something at a gas station and saying, "Let me hear your accent." Whether you're a photojournalist, a journalist, an actor, or you know, that's how it is . That's why I think all those professions that I looked at and said, "I want to be that," or "That's interesting to me," because you're constantly changing your point of view and you meet new people and you get new little nuclei in the culture and you manage to get in there and find, you know, so there's something really wonderful about researching a behavior that's unfamiliar to you.

So when Oliver came to me and one of the early scripts for W was very, it was hard-hitting and I said, but you can see this on CNN right now . Let's turn on CNN and basically watch this script. Isn't it more interesting that this black sheep of his family, who should never have amounted to anything, who was an alcoholic, became sober at 40 and became the President of the United States? Yes. How did that happen? What happened to Jed? How did Jed feel? Jeb, how did he feel about it?

What, you know, what was his upbringing like? And, you know, again, not to do this on purpose, but it makes me go back to my book. It's like, what, what, what is this book to you? And you say, the book is the, it's the creation of someone who found in creativity an outlet and, ultimately, to move away from their own self-destructive teachings of what they grew up with, you know? And that's it, you know, so I, this is just exploring myself, exploring myself more deeply. It's me doing the same thing I would do for a role in my spare time, between 2 and 5 in the morning when I'm not raising children.

Yes. But there's no doubt that, I mean, what you just said, there are definitely things about that that you, especially with your story, would relate to, and many of us would. It's like, here's a guy who was a mess, you know, his whole life, and then he turns everything around and becomes President of the United States. And then what do you do with that? And what do you do with those terrible decisions you have no perspective on? Were they his? Were they Cheney's? Was it this?

Was he really in control? Is the president the only one up there? You know, that's why I heard someone talking about debates. When a president is debating and somehow makes a mistake, you say, "Yes, but you can't blame him for that." They are surrounded by a cabinet that tells them things. They're not supposed to know everything and have every answer, the right answer, right when you ask for it. You know, there's an expectation. And I thought: I wonder what that kind of pressure would be like for someone who had failed, failed, and failed, like me.

I'm sure that's what Oliver saw. He said, " There's something about Josh that reminds me of this guy," and I'm not just going to take that at face value . I said, "What do you mean?" "Do I remind you of W? How dare you?" You know, it's like, what's behind the guy? "Oh, I see." He had a father who was doing well, and then the son got into it, but the son was more reactive. The son wasn't that smart, maybe the son, you know, didn't focus that well.

So how is it that those people...? It goes back to someone like Einstein. You say, what do you mean Einstein failed math? Do you know, how come Einstein actually felt guilty about the atomic bomb? And then you hear some of those quotes and you say, that sounds interesting. Not how we win all the time. You know, hitmen are a lot of fun, but if you lose your humanity in a hitman, you've missed out on everything. That's the complexity, isn't it? That's what 's interesting about these characters.

The thing is, you can't evaluate them as black or white, whether it's Dan White or if you're playing a Marvel Comics character or Georgia. Yes. Dan White was the great white hope, you know, and then they put him in a much bigger pond, being the big fish in a small pond. Then he entered a large pond and there were smarter people and more resilient people. And when you have a gay person who has dealt with, you know, obstacle after obstacle, and then you have obstacles in your own life.

If you're used to it, you'll be more resilient. You'll learn how to flow. You know, you'll know how to dodge and maneuver properly. And if you have good intentions, you can really accomplish things if you care about others instead of just focusing on yourself or that guy makes me look bad. That actor got that role. Why not me? I should be playing that role. I should be receiving that Academy Award. Relax a little, man. You know, you're not seeing the big picture. And the big picture is, are we all in this together or not?

Or is it just about me, me, and me? And that's it, again, I come back to that and it's an interesting trajectory to follow from different personalities. It's definitely more dramatic. They say, "Why do you do such strange roles or what?" Because they are more interesting because they have created films and membranes of an idea of ​​themselves. And then, if you start tearing that down, or those facades no longer work, what happens? You know, when you take a lobster's shell off, what happens? Does it go crazy because it feels so naked and with its nerves exposed and all that?

I mean, it sounds very pretentious, but it's really the truth. It's like, what are we made of? And I think that, going back to the book and reaching 50, is what is happening more and more right now. You know, should I do another play? Should I write a book? Should I do this? All these things interest me, but how can I challenge myself more? Because my ultimate goal is to be on my deathbed and just laugh. That was fun. And people could trust me and I didn't screw everyone over just to celebrate myself .

Josh, your mom, um, I know she was tragically killed in a car accident when you were a young boy. Um, you were in your early twenties. Um, and then she really couldn't see, you know, how you realized yourself as a great actor. No. Um, your dad has seen that. I mean, and and and and you're um, he's close, right? And I wonder, and I hope this isn't too sensitive a question, but what is your relationship with him like now? So, are they close? Do you see it?

Do you do it ? Yes, I think I'm closer to him now than ever before. Uh, because you know, he 's older now too. And if. And you too. And me too. Exact. Well said, and yes, I'm older and you know, all that rivalry thing I felt at the beginning and forging my own path and being my own man and all that kind of stuff. I think all of that is very real and also very necessary. It's like a way of cutting the umbilical cord, you know what I mean?

To become my own actor, but I did it from a very early age and I also did theater, and he had never done theater . And you know, part of it was a reaction and then, again, luck, you know, it's like I found someone who directed me in a very authentic, organic, and cool way. But I love my old man. Yes. I was with him just the other day. It was my daughter's birthday and he came, he and his wife came, and it was very, very nice.

There are moments that truly flow now, when before they were very scarce and distant because we are very different. We are very different. I'm very, I know I'm outspoken and, my...and no, I'm not really worried about the impact I 'm having, you know? I just know that we're basically swimming through all this [ __ ]. Yes. And discovering things along the way, whereas I think my dad was more focused on impact at the beginning. And I think he's let go of some of that, and I've let go of some of my things.

And it's fun to just be a couple of guys who appreciate each other. Yes. And your stepmother is Barbra Streisand . Yes, she is. Which, when you're in the family, doesn't mean much. And remember, I'm the guy who says, "I heard you sing," you know, I'm that idiot. "So , yeah, when you grow up listening to Waylon Jennings and Janis Joplin and Jessi Colter and all that, it doesn't have the same meaning for her as it does for other people. Uh, but I certainly appreciate her a lot.

A whole lot. She can still sing, but she's not—she's more than that. She's—she's like a diamond. Like a very, very sharp diamond. It's like if you put a bad quality diamond or needle on a record, she's the one who would say, 'That 's not good enough. We can— we can make it sound better than that .' There's a more refined, sharper diamond that should go on that turntable. And I love that. Maybe I'll perform her someday. You mentioned Anthony Hopkins and this incredible career he really had after 55.

Yeah. You just turned 55. So, well, if you look at Anthony Hopkins' career... Yeah. There's a lot ahead of you. Yeah. What is it that you want to do that you have n't been able to do yet? I've been fortunate enough to do everything that I've wanted to, but no, I don't see an end to that. So I expect to be surprised by what has n't been revealed yet. I think I'm capable of more. Just saying that scares me because I think by saying it on your podcast, someone's going to jump out of the woodwork and say, "Oh yeah, well, let's go check this out." And no, they won't.

No, but even if they do, I'm saying it because I'm looking for that. It scares me, but I'm looking for it, you know? I think that happened. I remember that. Anyway, Tony Hopkins, who's a good friend and someone I've always admired a lot, you know, Denzel, I 've always admired Denzel too, and the kind of work he was doing. And now he does different work, but it's still great. He's always great. And I look at those guys and analyze them from a behavioral standpoint. You've revealed more than most.

I don't know if it's your intelligence. I don't know if it's your courage . I don't know what it is, but I watch their movies and... I want to be a better person. You know, the other night we watched one and it just came out of the Nothing. We watched The Silence of the Lambs, ironically, the other night. It's so... I hope not with your young children. No, no, no, no. My wife and I were in bed and and and and but I was thinking, I miss the good old movies.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And even though, you know, you do something like, you know, he had them look almost directly into the camera and that might not have worked. It was a very brave thing to do. Jonathan Demme, it could have been a really silly, you know, distracting thing, but it just all worked. The music worked, the kind of heightened character that Hopkins did, what Jodie Foster did, what... just everything about it . And I finished the film and I was so tired because when you have young children, you're so tired all the time and you just go on and say, I know I should be in bed sleeping because we're going to be up at 5:30 in the morning.

But I finished that film and it's one of those reasons why you say, why do you keep doing what you do or what is What do you want to do? When I see a film like that, I still get incredibly moved to my core. I say, "This is greatness." And maybe the ego in me wants to be associated with greatness. Maybe there's something about it where I say, I don't know how No Country for Old Men will be perceived. But the fact that we had such a great time making it, you know, it wasn't serious, and it wasn't like, and Javier was kind of serious because he was a bit depressed about the whole thing.

But it was, um...how it was perceived is really nice. It's really nice when someone creates something, whether it's a painting, or a sculpture, or a song, or lyrics, or a film, or a play, where you say, "Man, I'm inspired or excited, fired up, moved," and that, to me, is the best feeling in the world. Yeah. I think True Grit is similarly, um, I mean, on that level, and Milk, and others. And just with Silence of the Lambs, even to this day, and I'm sure you might have this experience.

If I hear Tom Petty's "American Girl" on the radio at night, I turn it off. Because it just haunts me. So haunted by that song. That's great. Yeah, that's great. Josh, thank you so much. It was great talking to you. Yeah, it was great talking to you, man. You know, I listened to some of your podcasts a while back, and I was really excited. Yeah, you're a good guy. Thank you. Thank you. Uh, congratulations on the book, and uh, and good luck with the book tour.

I appreciate it. I'll do my best , buddy. Hey, thank you so much for watching my conversation with actor Josh Brolin. He just released his new memoir. It's called From Under the Truck. And if you want to see more videos like this, please subscribe to this channel. We post new conversations every week. And of course, we're also an audio podcast. Just search for The Great Creators wherever you listen to podcasts. Spotify, Apple, Amazon Music. We're there and on all platforms . I'm Guy Raz. This has been The Great Creators from Built Productions.

We'll be back here with another conversation next week. Thanks for watching.