John Maxwell: The REAL Reason You’re Afraid to Fail

Key Takeaway

Success and failure aren't opposites—they're dance partners. Keep them close together because when you're winning, failure brings humility that keeps you learning. When you're losing, success brings resilience that keeps you trying. The question isn't whether you'll fail, but whether you'll make excuses (bad miss) or adjustments (good miss). Your response to failure, not the failure itself, determines whether you're getting closer to your goal or further away.

Episode Overview

John Maxwell, the world's premier leadership expert, sits down with Ed Mylett to discuss his third book on failure: 'How to Get a Return on Failure.' This conversation goes deep into reframing failure as an asset rather than a liability. Maxwell challenges conventional thinking by arguing that success and failure should be kept together, not separated—failure provides humility during winning streaks, while success provides resilience during setbacks. The discussion reveals why highly successful people often fail more (because they attempt more), the critical distinction between 'good misses' (making adjustments) and 'bad misses' (making excuses), and why getting over yourself is essential to taking risks. Maxwell shares his philosophy that there is no finish line in personal growth, which has freed him to continuously learn and attempt new challenges at age 78.

Full Transcript

Transcript of John Maxwell: The REAL Reason You’re Afraid to Fail from The Ed Mylett Show. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

So when you look at failure, the reason people don't do failure is because they haven't got over themselves. When I think of failure, I ask myself, do you want to get in the game and fail or do you want to sit in the bleachers and fail? fail? fail? That is good. And and and so it's it's kind of like, do you want to watch yourself fail because you because you're not in the game? Because sitting in the bleachers has already disqualified you. There's there's no win.

There's no one ever had a beer and a hot dog and won. Success and failure are intertwined in everything that we do. That's so good because if I keep failure close to my success when I'm on a roll, it will give me humility. me humility. me humility. This is this is a tremendous conversation we're having right now. You have this chapter in the book, challenge my thinking on this or explain it to me. You say, "Know the difference between a good miss and a bad miss." Huge.

Huge. Huge. What's that mean? Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you brought it up. And so what happens is when you talk about the success, you discourage people. people. people. When you talk about failure, you encourage people, especially when you're a successful failure. Gosh, that's so true. It's so encouraging. What's the Bible say about failure? You know, when you have the camera guys going, "Hey, man. They're naughty." You know, you're you're spitting at truth. Welcome back to the show, everybody. So, today is obviously my favorite day of the year.

about once a year I get a chance to have this man on our show and hopefully that'll happen more and more in 2026. But let me just tell you about this man. Number one, you all know his accolades. He's the premier leadership leadership expert in the world the last 50 years of my life. That means I'm old. Number one. Well, it means I'm old. 50 years. But he's sold I don't what do you sell? 35 million books. He's written a hundred different books. And that's not what I love about him.

Even though he's the best in the world at what he does. I'll just tell you all personally that, you know, since my father's passed away, which was about four or five years ago, um this man sort of fulfills that role for me in my life of the man that I look up to the most and he's my hero. He's the person that uh I'll never ever live up to the shoes that he's walked in, but they're the ones I would love to try to fill in my life.

I admire him tremendously. He's as good a human being as I've ever met in my life. And so today we're going to talk about his new book um which I've specialized in this thing called failure. So I'm really glad you wrote this book. It's called How to Get a Return on Failure: Fail Smarter Return Stronger with this man John Maxwell. Welcome back to the show, my friend. friend. friend. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's so good to be with you. I love you so much. And you know, I wish everybody could have the relationship that we have.

You know, everybody needs to have somebody that they care for and that they learn from and grow with. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's I think when I think of you and I, we just get we're better together. together. together. Thank you. Well, I'm certainly better. My life's changed since I've known you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, one thing I want to tell you, just tell the audience, too. You know, when I make decisions, I used to think, obviously, I know we have Christ centered in our lives, but I'm talking about men that I know.

I used to think, how would my dad handle this? And since my dad's passed away, the biggest compliment I could give you is I always think, how would John handle this? That's sort of my my barometer. I just want you to know that. Well, I want to handle it well, my friend. Although, how would John handle this? We're going to talk about failure, which is what my spiritual gift. So, it's your spiritual. So, I want to that's the one thing I want to know. It is the number one thing, would you agree, that probably holds people back from even making an effort in the first place?

So let's frame what when I say failure just that word what what comes to mind for you when you hear that first well for everybody it's negative I I very seldom will you ever run into a person that you put the word failure in front of them and they think good things right right right and so it's already a weight it's a weight mentally it's a weight emotionally it's a weight psychologically on people and so I wrote the book really to help them understand that it doesn't have to be a liability it truly can be an asset but cannot be an asset until we change the way we think about failure and and and embrace it.

And when you think of mentors, uh Ed Robert Scheler who was the pastor of Crystal Cathedral when I was 33, he found me and he called me and he said, "I want you to come into the Crystal Cathedral. I want to meet you. I want you to speak for me. I'm hearing a lot about you." So, I'm just a kid and we're having our first dinner and he asked me, he said, "What's your greatest challenge?" I said, "Well," I said, "I don't think I always take enough risk.

I think that I'm holding back a little bit. So, we talked about failure and he said to me that day, day, day, John, if failure were not possible, what would you attempt to accomplish? Well, if failure is not possible, that just takes the whole lid off. And will you try anything? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, I don't think it's a great question because failure is very possible. So, I I think it's not a realistic question, but it's a it it was a good question that led me to a great question.

You know, you don't get to great until you get to good. It's kind of a it's a process. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So after about nine months of asking myself if failure were not possible, would I do this? Yes. And so I went it I came I came back with the if failure were possible but you knew if it happened it was going to help you. That's a great question. And and I started asking myself that question. I've done that now for many many years. This this would have been well I was 33.

I'm 78. So you know do the math. So this has been a long time ago. But when I changed the question, I found I changed the frame of mind. Yeah. You've reframed it. Yeah. I we reframed the question now. Now you can get the mind where it needs to be. And so how to receive return on failure is really about let me give you the right perspective because how we view things is how we do things. You and I both know that perspective is everything. And I mean outside of sharing my faith, if I could do one thing for any person, I would help him with perspective because that's going to really make them or break them.

And I think it's true with failure too. My perspective of failure determines whether it's an asset or a liability. And return on failure is all about the perspective. The right perspective of failure now it becomes an asset. asset. asset. Wow. Wow. Wow. Not a not not not a detriment to I have to tell you when you do interviews like you're supposed to go this is such an important topic but it is so important. So my son Max is here today. Last week I was with my daughter and she's graduating college and she's going to get into sales and uh probably real estate and she and she's very talented.

She's a closer. She can persuade. She's good with people. She has all that stuff. And and she says, "Then Daddy, why are you not completely sure that this is for me?" And I said, "Honey, I'm going to be honest with you. I don't know how you'll deal with failure." failure." failure." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that more than anything almost in a in in someone's career and in life defines them. Maybe even more than talent. Maybe even more than skills. I don't know how you're going to deal when you miss six sales in a row or four people stand you up or you make you embarrass yourself to some extent.

And I said to her, and I want your perspective on this. I said, ironically, I kind of think people that are really afraid to fail are almost like egoomaniacs. It's just the flip side of the coin, meaning they've made so much of it about them. And you write about that in the book. What's your perspective on it? Because I think most people think, oh, no, egoomaniacs are very confident people who aren't afraid to fail. Not true. Not true at all. In fact, I tell people and it's very simple.

Until you get over yourself, you're never going to be a highly successful person because it's not about me. It's if if you know, you're a great communicator. communicator. communicator. Get over yourself. It's all about the audience. audience. audience. That's right. That's right. That's right. So, when you look at failure, the reason people don't do failure is because they haven't got over themsel. Well, the other day I start This is so true. I started writing this the other day, so it's brand new, so it's it's fresh.

So, I hope it's good, but I don't know if it's good because I'm just working on it. I'll tell you. But okay, thank you. Here, here's what I think. When I think of failure, I ask myself, myself, myself, do you want to get in the game and fail or do you want to sit in the bleachers and fail? and fail? and fail? That is good. And and and so it's it's kind of like, do you want to watch yourself fail because you because you're not in the game?

Because sitting in the bleachers has already disqualified you. There's there's no win. There's no one ever had a beer and a hot dog and won. You know what I'm saying? So, so, so, but the reason we don't get into the game is because we don't want to lose because we want to look good in the eyes of people. And so, we we want that kind of favor. So, anytime I'm concerned about how I look to others, yes, I'm in trouble. Not Not because I'm I'm not trying to give a total disregard for just do anything you want to do.

I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that I have to realize that realize that realize that with one trifling small exception in this world, the world's composed of other people. other people. other people. Just just there's John, but then there's billions. And and I got to get off of John onto the billions to to to be able to now to now be comfortable with the fact that I'm not always going to hit it. Linda, who's been with me, Edgar for 39 years as my personal assistant all the way up.

I drove up from where I lived up here for this. And uh so we had about an hour and a half conversation and she said something very interesting. She said, "John, I think your secret sauce," she says, "I look at she said, "Your secret sauce is that um you don't have to win, but you do have to learn." And she said, "You jump the fence very quickly. quickly. quickly. You what's over there? you're curious. I got what you know I got to find out what I don't know yet because you know when you know you don't know the thing you know is you need to know more than you know.

So and so but she said your ability to ability to ability to uh to to not she said and you do it first. She said do it before anyone else. else. else. Yes. Yes. Yes. But she said you do it first because you just it's not about you. And and and she said the and that's your secret sauce. Well, I don't know if that's my secret sauce but I do know this. I do know this that when people hold back hold back hold back almost every time they don't hold back because what's the right decision they hold back because what's going to happen to me, to me, to me, right?

Or what are people going to think about? about? about? That's exactly right. It's interesting you say that cuz I was with um just so timely this book is. And by the way, make sure you guys go get the book and we're going to talk about it again at the end. This specifically the book itself, but I was working with one of the PGA Tour players that I work with, a golfer. Yeah. And uh I he he literally said to me, "I'm afraid I'm going to miss the putt." And I said, "No, you're not." He goes, "What do you mean?" He says, "No, I'm afraid I'm going to miss the putt." And I said, "I can promise you you're not afraid of me.

It's just a ball not going in a hole. It's not the end of your life." I said, "You're afraid of what people are going to think about you if you miss the putt." Totally right. Totally right. Totally right. And and here's here's here's the deal. If you're on the putting range all by yourself, yourself, yourself, right? And you're putting, do you have Oh, oh my gosh, I'm afraid we'll miss this. That doesn't even enter your mind. Correct. It's it's like I was in the proam at Pebble Beach for six straight years and my brother and I were talking one day.

He said, "John, does it make you nervous? I mean, you got thousands of people out there. They're watching you play golf. Doesn't that make you nervous?" I said, "Not at all." He said, "Why not?" I said, "Because they didn't come to watch me play golf. Get over yourself." There wasn't one person that went to Pebble Beach and said, said, said, "Boy, I'd like to see Fat Man John swing." swing." swing." THEY CAME TO SEE THEY CAME to see the pros. They came to see there. You know what they're want for Fat John?

Would he putt and get out of the way so I could watch a real putt? Watch the real play. I want to watch somebody can really hit a golf ball. Well, that's a different mindset. But if a person says they're afraid of missing the putt, they're afraid of what people will think because when they were on the putt in green by themselves, they weren't afraid of missing the putt. 1,000%. So, what does it mean? Help me frame this so I can help people even in my coaching.

One of the things in the book, I think it's chapter two, is keep failure and success together. Is that what it says? What does what does that mean? mean? mean? Well, first of all, I've never heard anybody talk about it. Me either. Me either. Me either. The thing one of the things I'm very excited about this book for first of all, this is my third failure book. You understand? I wrote Failing Forward, which is a million seller. It was it was it was my first failing book.

Then I then I wrote Sometimes You Win, Sometimes You Learn. And and then I wrote this one. And And somebody said, "Well, why'd you write three?" I said because it I'm really good at it. I you know there's some I please let me talk to you about failure. Success I'm not sure but failure I'm I'm I'm really good at I'm really good at failure in the process. So I've never heard anybody talk about this. this. this. Failure and success are meant to be very close together.

close together. close together. But our culture separates them. Succeed. Don't fail. Do it right. Don't mess it up. And we put them as far apart as we possibly can. One's good, one's bad, one you got to do, one you don't want to ever do. And we separate them. But think about it. There's no reality that at all in my life and your life and everybody that's part of this podcast. They they've never had a a time where they had three days of all success and then on Thursday they had two days of all failure.

Success and failure are intertwined in everything that we do. And every every month, you know, I've done this for over 30 years. I have a learning lunch where I sit down with somebody bigger, better, faster, smarter than me, and I ask them seven questions. And one of the questions I ask them is, "What's the most important lesson you've ever learned in your life?" Now, I've done that for over 30 years. Do the math. That's three 400 people, different people I've talked to. Every time I ask them, "What's the most important lesson you've ever learned in your life, every time, not sometimes, not most times, when they tell me their story, failure is in that story." Incredible.

I I I've never heard a success, most important lesson I've ever learned without some kind of a miss, a loss. Oh my gosh, I woke up. I didn't have any idea. It's always in there. So even at the core of your greatest moments. moments. moments. Wow. Wow. Wow. Failure is there. So here's why you got to keep them together. You need to keep success and failure together because Ed, they balance each other out. other out. other out. That's so good. Yes. So I'm over here and I'm just on a roll.

I'm might as touch. It's all gold. Success. Woo. Touchdown. Here we go. I better keep failure right beside that because you know what Bill Gates said? Success is a lousy teacher. It makes people think they can't lose. So when I'm on this winning streak, oh yeah, I I better keep failure right. Because if I keep failure close to my success when I'm on a roll, it will give me humility. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you've got to have humility to learn and be taught. True. True. True.

So with my success, I keep failing together because in my success, I have humility. Let's go over to the I'm in the ditch now. I'm failing. I'm screwing this whole thing up. I got to keep success right beside that failure in my worst days because it gives me resiliency. resiliency. resiliency. Very good. Very good. Very good. You separate them and you lose humility and you lose resiliency. You put them together now all of a sudden it's a beautiful thing regardless of what state you're in. That is tremendous by the way that is tr that could be an entire book like just that philosophy.

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I'm think I'm watching you right now. right now. right now. I think you're better than I've ever seen you. I'm talking about like your articulation, your communication, the the the tactical stuff. And by the way, it's it's it's about time about time about time that No, that's No, actually the the the truth is that's a pretty high compliment given you are considered by everybody I know the world's greatest leadership expert for the last half century or more. To say that you're better now. And I want to ask you, I'm framing that as a true compliment, but around failure.

You said something to me a couple years ago that is you said a lot of things in life that have stuck with me, but one of them that just blew my doors off. You said, Ed, my capacity to grow, yeah, is greater than it's ever been before. Meaning, not only am I growing more than I've ever grown before, and this was you're probably 75 at the time. I don't know, probably around there. And you said, not only am I growing more, but my capacity to grow has been expanded.

is part of that because your perspective is your learning and that that allows you to view failure differently than most people. In other words, are those things two things connected to you? Oh, they're very connected. I'm tell and and I'm in love with learning. I know. I had somebody the other day say because they said, "What do you love best?" I mean, you're a communicator, you're a writer, you're a networker, you're you leadership guy. They they threw out about seven. Which which others? And I said, "You didn't name any of my favorite thing." I said, "My favorite thing is learning." Wow.

Wow. Wow. It honestly and and I there's a game I play. It takes three minutes. I play it probably six times a day. Uh in I'll have a moment or I'll have three minutes. I'll pull it's called Word Seek. Seek. Seek. And I'm really good with words because I mean that's my I mean I'm I'm good with words. And uh I'm always in the top 5%. Sometimes I' I I've been a half dozen times number one in the world. And I mean, just playing this game, you know, oh, here's your rank.

Anyway, the reason I love it is it's a three-minute game, and when it's done, if I have a good game and puts me in the expert level, I only got about 25% of the words. What are you trying to do? Figure out a word that's a synonym or something or No, no. It's it's it's it's scrambled letters and you make words out of it. Find the words. How many words can you It's called Word. See? Now, here's what I love about and I keep asking myself, why am I so drawn to this game?

I tell you what this game, I'm never going to get there. And never going to get there is highly appealing to me. I know it is. I I want to tell you something. I know it is. You show me a person that wants wants um achievement. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. But they don't want to be stretched in their life. their life. their life. They're going to they're going to be in trouble. trouble. trouble. And so I I love the fact that when I'm done, there's no expert at all.

I'm 22%. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and and I was ranked top, but I'm not top. There's 80 there's 80% there's 75% that I never even got off of that. There's something very appealing of never having arrived. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That it's a journey and it's not a destination. destination. destination. And and I can remember one of my books I wrote many years ago was called the success journey. success journey. success journey. And and my publisher wanted to call it the destination to success. And I said, "No, no, no, no." Yeah.

you wouldn't do that. There's no destinations. It's a journey. There's you you never and so I think there's a lot of that. If you want to constantly grow and learn, I think you look at failure as a terrific asset and and not a not a liability at all. This is this is a tremendous conversation we're having right now. You've that thing you said about there's really not a finish line. None. And that you're constantly learning and growing. You've really in in my own life, life, life, you've challenged my own thinking about that.

I began a business career and a pursuit with an idea of finishing. Of course, Of course, Of course, truly. truly. truly. And then as I got around you, it it challenged my perspective about that to where not only have you inspired me not to think that way anymore, but it's freed me up almost. Oh, it's beautiful. You can fly. You're right. You're right. You're right. Oh. Oh, no. No. You you fly. See, and I started off same way. I thought go out, do really well, make your money.

Yes. Build your house on the hill. Yeah. retire, live happily ever after, you have no needs, no worries. And so I think we all start off that way. And and then I then I began to understand the the fallacy of that whole process. And so I I used to think you do you do the hard thing so then it it gets easy. And what I discovered is that's not true at all. all. all. It isn't. It isn't. It isn't. You do the hard thing and if you do it really well, guess what?

You get something harder. You do you you do the you finish hard and you get Oh my gosh. harder. and and and you keep climbing harder and here's what happens. Respect is only earned on difficult ground. So true. So true. So true. Significance is only taken on difficult ground, Ed. And if you don't have it, so therefore the the fulfillment, the joy, the the adrenaline stuff that you want in your life happens in the fact that you're going where you've never been before. You're learning things you've never known before.

You're doing things that you've never tried before. And you know, you know you aren't going to do it all right. You know that you're going to have to take detours. You know you're going to have setbacks. But it doesn't matter because you're out there where you're supposed to be with greatness is designed for somewhere out there that calls for a pioneer. Gosh. Gosh. Gosh. Not for somebody who sat there and said, "You know what? I got it figured out." I tell people, when you think you got it, you're going to get it.

I can absolutely attest that that's true. I've watched it with my friends over and over. You know, we're having this is this is a conversation I've not heard on a podcast before and it's so important. This is one of these things where if you're listening this, you should go back and listen to this again. Even those of you that have are doing you think you're doing well. That's why don't you think so many people get to that exit in their company or that point and they're like it's it's not what I thought it would be.

It's because it's there isn't really a finish line for these things and it is disappointing to get there. I also think it causes you to maybe make poor decisions if you think it's going to end. You know, you might cut corners or do things like that unless instead of being in a pursuit of something. Do you agree with that? Well, totally. I I you could I'll tell you what disappointment is. Disappointment is thinking that there's a place where there's happiness. It's not a destination. It's not a place.

It's not it's not something I did. It's not some place I arrived. arrived. arrived. It's what I'm doing. You know, I mean, is there anything more boring than a person that has that been there, done that mindset? Oh, been there, done that, been there. You just look up and say, "Dear God, let me leave you as quick as I can." Because you immediately this whole it's like expert. It's like expert. I mean, when people talk to me about your leadership expert, I said, "I'm not expert.

The more you know, the more you know you don't know." Mhm. And the more you know you don't know, the more you know you need to know. Okay. Okay. Okay. And no matter how much you know, there's more out there. And when I I remember when I wrote my first leadership book, I thought I'll write a very good leadership book and I'll I'll have done leadership. Well, I wrote that leadership book. It wasn't that good to be honest with you. And I thought, oh man, there's more that I could write about leadership.

Again, once you keep that mindset of learning and growing, it's kind of like you think you're going to figure it out and you think you're going to get to the end, but you're not going to figure out and you're not going to get the end. And then one day you wake up and say, "I never want to figure it out. I never want to get to the end because it's in the chase." the chase." the chase." A million% this is right, by the way. I've just lived it.

But you were the first person came along. I I you guys he has I think everyone in my audience thinks I work very hard and I think I do. I I you're another level. You're another level. We're you we've flown around together. I've been fortunate to fly with him and the way he flies is very nice. And but we'll he when you get on the plane with him and there's other people around it's like okay you what what are you working on? What do you need help with?

This is what I'm working on. These are my questions. Yep. And I've been he and I are the two weirdos because at some point inevitably everybody else eventually crashes out and it's John and I together going back and forth and I'm just I'm just learning. But I guess the thing that I think on failure maybe you cover it in the book. So I'd like you to talk about this. How do you because you know not all failure is good is it? So like how do you know a or is all good?

Meaning you have this chapter in the book challenge my thinking on this or explain it to me. You say know the difference between a good miss and a bad miss. Huge. Huge. Huge. What's that mean? Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you brought it up, Edhead. Again, just like keeping failure and success together, I never heard anybody talk about read about it until I wrote it. Yeah, I have not either. I'm going to tell you something. I've never heard anybody talk about this. Okay, Okay, Okay, but there is a difference between a good miss and a bad miss.

A good miss is still a miss, but you got a little closer. A bad miss, you got a little further. It it's it's like this. A good miss is when I have a failure. And by the way, you never know whether you have a good miss or bad miss based on what the failure is. It's your response to the failure that determines the good miss and bad miss. Nobody talks about this, but watch this. Watch this. So, let's I I messed something up. So, what I do I say, "Wow, that didn't work.

I got to make adjustments." Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Good miss. Now, I'm said, "Oh, I've learned that. Don't do that anymore. Change here." I make adjustments. That's a good miss. A bad miss, I make excuses. That's a bad miss. You What do you do with excuses with excuses with excuses except make more excuses? I I've never known anybody go from excuse to success. I've never had I've go from failure to success, success, success, but not because excuses takes away awareness. awareness. awareness. When I make excuses, I personally say I don't want to be aware of what could be out there.

out there. out there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and you can't fix what you don't know needs to be fixed. And so therefore, we muddle in. That's a bad miss. We're staying that. We stay in that. But it's the response to the failure that determines whether the miss is a good one or a bad one. So when people say, "I failed." Okay, I got it. I failed a lot of times. Let's let's talk about your response. What's your response? Because when these guys are saying, "The greatest lesson I ever learned had failure in it." It's because they had good misses.

Outstanding. Outstanding. Outstanding. When people say, "I'm done. I'm It's over. It's terrible. It's because they had bad misses. Outstanding. Outstanding. Outstanding. Doesn't that make sense? Yes. There's a part of the book, which I'm going to let you guys read in the book about kind of the victim identity that we take on that goes down this road also. also. also. Totally. Totally. Totally. It's earlier in the book than this part. Um, yeah, I've had some bad misses, too. I've had some bad misses where I pointed fingers and didn't learn from it.

And a lot of times you end up repeating that mistake in another form if you don't take something from You either you either learn from the failure, which is a good miss, or you leave the failure, which is a bad miss. And most people, they want to leave the scene as quick as oh my gosh, what happened? It wasn't me. And so, but the moment you leave, you learn nothing. You leaving is a bad miss because it doesn't let you, you didn't stay around long enough to learn.

That's so good. And you just have to I tell people all the time, you got to hang with your failure a while. This is this is good. There's a lot to learn here. you know, don't don't don't get off the opera operating table too quickly. Let the surgeon do the work. The other thing you don't do, at least in my observation, I need to do better at this, but I want to talk about leading other people through failure. Meaning, Meaning, Meaning, yeah, yeah, yeah, one thing I've watched, we've, you know, I'll just leave it at that, but I don't see you when you course correct or coach my observation of you, you don't seem to be judging the person's failure.

And even when some of them have been some, you know, failures, you know, judgment failures, we'll say, right? So, how do you lead somebody, whether that be business or a child of yours, and maybe it's different in those two and take your time on either one, but what what's your philosophy on leading others through a failure? Well, first of all, all I have to do is look at my failures. And it takes me off the judgment role real quick. I mean, my gosh, I have had, in fact, I think highly successful people people people probably fail more than unsuccessful because they keep trying.

They're out there attempting. And so, if you're, hey, if you attempt a thousand times, you're going to have several hundred misses. If you attempt 10, you may only have six or seven. So, I think the the effort creates a lot of possibilities for failure. But when I look at that failure, what I what I understand is in and trying to help other people through it is two things. One is nothing helps people handle failure more than me to talk to them about my failures. Okay. Okay.

Okay. I mean, Ed, I've heard you talk and when you when you do some of your teaching, you're a master at talking about the hard lessons that you've learned in that process that that brought. So, you do you do you do to tell people you have failed and then them to look at you and see where you are. Yes. Now, here's what I tell. When successful people talk about their failures, failures, failures, then failure gets tagged with successful people. people. people. This guy is just watch but when you But when you watch people that have failed talk about their failure, you say, "Oh my god, don't want to do that.

That's a loser for sure." And so, so what I say is when you're successful, the more you talk about failure, the more you help people see it from a perspective of positivity. And so you you do a great because here's what happens, okay? And I join your team and you're you're highly successful and I'm just starting out. I'm a newbie and I hope I do it right. And you're talking about all your successes and then I go out and of course I don't do it right.

You're never good the first time. You're never good the second time. It's like your daughter. What happens when you have five calls and they're all nos? So, so you're you're not any good. Well, immediately I look at you and I think, well, look at Ed. Oh my gosh, he's so good. good. good. And then what do I do? I disqualify myself. myself. myself. Yeah. Amen. Yeah. Amen. Yeah. Amen. I just said, well, I I just I don't have his gifts. I don't have his I don't get his opportunity.

And so what happens is when you talk about the success, you discourage people. discourage people. discourage people. When you talk about failure, you encourage people. Especially when you're a successful failure. Gosh, that's so true. It's so encouraging. It just it lifts because guess what? When you talk about your failures, but I see that you've overcome them. overcome them. overcome them. So when I fail, I said, "Well, Ed did that." that." that." But look, he overcome it. I can overcome them, too. It's a whole different mindset.

And I wish that successful people. people. people. I wish they would talk about their failures more. failures more. failures more. So do I. Uh because because that's where the learning and the growing is. And I'll tell you what else. I'm 78. People seeing me kind of like the highlight of my life. my life. my life. I wish they could see me at 28. Yeah. my great if I could have one genie wish it would be I wish you could have seen me communicator 28 I wasn't that good I wish you could I because they would be greatly encouraged what they're doing is they're seeing a man who has done 50 plus years of personal daily growth every day and so yes I'm it's kind of like in the beginning you're not as bad as people think you are but in the end you're really not as good as people think you are either and and I have this great desire to let everybody know I wasn't really that good and you just have to understand I I I I I made a commitment to intentionally grow and develop myself, but but I wasn't that good.

I I wasn't and and if they would have seen me, they would have seen then they would see not the end result, but they would see what growth will do for a person that you know. But John, I've watched it in the last 10 years that I've been your friend. I've actually watched it at at this stage of your life growth. You are getting better. Is there in those 50 years is there a particular situation where you failed that you could maybe share that did cause you to grow or make a pivot or look at failure differently?

Do you think of one? I mean I'm sure there's a lot but I mean is when I when I was 40 I did inventory kind of that midlife kind of did a halftime thing but you know and I got a little discouraged because I thought I'm not quite as far as I thought I would get and so I did the personal inventory. Why am I not as far as I got? And I I came to a conclusion about 3 days later that I really I had spent a lot of time on my personal growth and development, but I hadn't spent enough time on developing my team.

And I said, Maxwell, you had you if you don't grow your team, they can't go with you. you. you. And so I made a pivot and I said, I am going to really work on growing and developing my team. And and that was one of the best decisions I ever made. But it was one of those times at halftime where I had to come and ask myself, am I willing to now make this big transition, right? right? right? And what it goes back to the law of the inner circle and the 21 laws.

Those closest to you determine the level of your success. And and it was at that moment I thought I will never hit my level of success unless I have great people around me. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So I had better I had I had better you know we can only grow so much in personal capacity but we can grow a lot more in team capacity. Very good. Very good. Very good. And so the the idea of partnershipping and teamwork there's something really beautiful about developing a great team until that one and one doesn't really after a while equal two.

It equals three. There's a comp there's a compounding there of that. So many of you have asked how to see me speak live and for the first time ever you can come see me speak live in person. All of my speeches have been private events, but now I'm teaming up with Life Surge, speaking all over the country. Life Surge is a one-day faith-based event where you'll walk in hungry for success, and you'll leave ready to build your resources to leave an impact on others. We're talking faithfueled finance, growing your resources, crushing obstacles, and then, yeah, using it all for something way bigger than yourself.

I'm joining Life Surge in a few cities this year, and I'd love to see you there. I'll be sharing the stage with legends such as twotime football champion Tim Tibo, star of Duck Dynasty Willie Robertson, and leadership hero of mine John Maxwell, pastor and author Craig Rochelle, and worship with artists like Natalie Grant. Tickets are on sale at lifesurge.com. And just for my listeners, you can use the code ed for 30% off a ticket. There will be a link in the show notes, so click through and take some time to join us.

Cities are being added all the time, so if you don't see one near you now, check back. I hope to see you there. Do you wish your last book we're we're talking about, you know, more like public leaders and stuff and do you feel like if I'm a leader, I want you to give advice to leaders out there and you have had a failure or a setback or a mistake. One of the things I wish for like in our public discourse like our politicians is for a leader to say made a mistake.

I got this one wrong. I'm I apologize. I'm going to course correct this. My intent wasn't to do this, but I I I blew it. I call I missed the call there and we're going to get it right next time. It's almost like it seems like in our culture today failure is such a bad thing that if you even admit one you're you're you know somehow you're disqualified forever. I wish do you feel that way too? I wish more of a and so if you're speaking to someone who runs a company or leads a family which is a leader a mother that's listening to this.

It's okay to acknowledge you've had a failure or a setback or made a mistake. And that's a redemptive thing to do, an important thing to do for both you and the person who's hearing you. hearing you. hearing you. It's it's a two-way redemptive thing. When I admit my failures, I get in touch with my humanity, which allows me now to be able to really grow. grow. grow. So, it it it's good for me, but it's also good for the other person. You know, it was funny cuz I I remember last year when I was when when we had a couple candidates running for president, I told Margaret before the first presidential debate, I I I I said, "I I know who I'm going to vote on." And she said, "Who are you going to vote on for?" I said, "The first person in the debate that looks in the camera and said, "I did I made a mistake." Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I I didn't do that right. Oh, I wish I I wish I could have that I wish I could do that decision over again. I said, "The first person that shows any kind of authenticity, any kind of in touch with who they are, that doesn't blame the other person for all the problems in the world." I said, "I'm just going to" and I just sat there and I thought, "That'd be a long wait. All right, I'm going just I'm voting for you. Just ju just one time.

Just tell me one time." one time." one time." Of course, there was no And Of course, there was no And and you and I both know that is first of all untrue. all untrue. all untrue. We're all human. And number two, it's unhealthy. It's unhealthy because we set a standard. a standard. a standard. Yes. Yes. Yes. That is not liveable by anybody. And now we're instead of us having freedom, we're under incredible bondage and stress and it does all kind of emotional things that people don't want.

want. want. That is such an important thing because it's not modeled. You're not seeing that from most public leadership right now. Yet the leaders that I've worked with in my life that I admire the most have done exactly what you say to do. I I messed that up. I'm so sorry. Please forgive me. I'm going to get it right next time. and and people just can hardly wait to forgive you. It I actually think ironically, kind of like what you said about overall failure, I actually got much closer to that person as a leader.

It almost as if that setback or mistake, the decision they made that didn't go the right way was actually an odd blessing long term because their acknowledgment of it built a level of trust that didn't exist when everything was perfect. My inner circle, they know my strengths and they know my weaknesses. M they know my best victories and they know my biggest losses. And I want to tell you they're close to me because they know my biggest losses. Yep. You also told me when I got to know you better, which just for what it's worth, just want to say this back to you just how much I am listening.

You told me, "Hey, Ed, you know, reveal your imperfections to people. You'll become much closer to them if you try to appear to be perfect all the time." And I really have I've I've really heeded that advice that that by the way, it's so freeing. Oh, yes. to not try to have to live up to some standard that I know is not accurate, right? I I know that it is. Got a hard question for you on failure. So, we're talking about this whole failure thing. Sometimes, do you worry at all that as we embrace failure that, and I think you'll know what I mean when I say this, I want you to speak to it.

There's this whole book you've written. It's gold. And obviously, just even the nuggets that we've talked about today, but can you go a little too far on that where you accept failures in your life? Do you know what I'm saying? Where you know what I mean? Like I want to have the I want to have a guard rail on this to some extent because some people take this and just go well then I don't have to have any successes. I don't have to have any breakthroughs.

You know what I'm saying? That does become part of a culture. So speak to that. Well I what I say all the time is failure should move you. And when we when we become comfortable with failure we're in trouble. So failure failure should move you. Failure is your friend not because you had the failure. It's your friend because it says you better change something. change something. change something. And people change when they when they hurt enough they have to. When they learn enough, they know how to and when they receive enough, they're able to.

able to. able to. And so that that's the change pattern of people. So, so when I fail, I am I am embracing failure as a friend because it raised his hand and said, "John, wrong way. way. way. You you don't you don't want to go here." And now it it it creates awareness. Failure treated correctly makes me aware of changes I need to make. failure perspectively incorrectly is when I look at it and instead of saying I'm aware and I must change, I look at I say I just can't do any better and make excuses and and so by but it's a catalyst.

Failure is a catalyst to either have a person change for the better or it's a catalyst for a person to say I I'm a victim and that's this way it's going to be and that's my life and I can't help it. What's the Bible say about failure? Well, the Bible's beautiful about failure. I mean, think about it. First of all, the Bible never hid failures. There are only two people in the Bible that there's nothing about their life in failure. There's only two great ones and and that's Joseph and Nehemiah.

and Nehemiah. and Nehemiah. They're the only two biblical characters where where you look at their life and you every other biblical charact David. Well, that's of course there's some murder and adultery. That's an obvious one, right? and and and reme and remember this. remember this. remember this. God looked at David and said, "You're a man after my own heart." heart." heart." Now, David's frontline people in his kingdom didn't say that. God said that. I God looked at a guy that we would look and say, "He's not fit to be in this thing." And he said, "You're a man after my own heart." I mean, look at look at Moses and the the great men and women of leaders.

Honestly, Honestly, Honestly, they all had failure in their life. The Bible doesn't try to cover that. See, the Bible's, you know, one of the things that's beautiful about God's word and and God is is he's not transactional at all. I love about I mean, God doesn't say Maxwell measure up and but guess I think I'm going to let you in. Right? Right? Right? He's transformational. He's transformational. He's transformational. He doesn't work on a transactional. It's it's I don't earn anything. The very fact of forgiveness is a fact that God knows how to handle failure well.

well. well. Come on you guys. This is so good in in our lives. Oh my god. And it's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. That's very comforting to me. Same here, brother. Makes me emotional. It's your second me too. too. too. Yeah, I know. It's because because we have a wonderful God. That's why it makes me emotional. Thank God for God's grace. Hey, Hey, Hey, hey, hey, hey, somebody says, "If I don't have God's grace, I don't think I can make it." Actually, let me explain something.

If you don't have God's grace, you don't make it. make it. make it. You do not. I thought for a moment you were entertaining a possibility. Remove that. You remove that possibility out of your life, sir. It isn't going to happen. happen. happen. You um you're just such a treasure in my life. And I'm I Something happens when we do this. I don't know what it is, but like Ed, I do interviews. You do interviews. We all do interviews. You're the best interviewer. interviewer. interviewer. Oh my gosh.

Now listen to me. The first time I remember first time we did it out in Los Angeles. We sat down and and it clicked. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I walked away and I said, "It clicked because this man, you have you have a great gift of intuition and discernment." And when you're with people, you see the person, but you see what's behind what's behind what's behind and you are a great interviewer because you don't say the obvious. You go behind the curtain and you pull out the best in people.

And I think the better people that you interview, the better interviews you get because it's all inside, but you have the ability to to dig for that gold and get it. You're a great, great, great, you know, I don't mean to say this because we're going back and forth calling. You do that to me. You do that for me myself. Like I you know what one thing about leadership you guys is when you know someone truly believes in you. Oh, totally. Oh, totally. Oh, totally. It's so I like I feel that from you.

It's a game changer, right? It's it's one of those elements. It's different. I even think with our children, loving our children is obviously it's entry into the game. I mean, that's that you're supposed to love your children, but believing in them and them knowing you believe in them or as a leader in a company, that's a different thing. Oh, it's the greatest gift we could ever give anyone is the same gift that God gave us. Unconditional love Unconditional love Unconditional love while we were yet sinners.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. God loved us. Not when we got our act together. Not when we all of a sudden made a better presentation. While we were yet sinners. While we were already screwed up. While we were already You see, God God doesn't fix see, God God doesn't fix us to change us. He changes us to fix us. us. us. There's a lot of difference between those two. those two. those two. You know, when you have the camera guys going, "Hey, man. They're naughty." You know, you're you're spitting truth.

Can I ask you one more thing because we're going to wrap up. I just want to ask you about this one thing that is another thing you have. It's not in the book. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Um, you Um, you Um, you want others to succeed. Were you this way when you were young? And let me tell you what I mean. I want everyone to understand this. understand this. understand this. One time he gave a speech that I thought was just, you know, incredible every time he speaks.

And but I we were I was with him afterwards. I said that was just mind-blowing. And he goes, "Oh, here's a note. You should give this speech. You do it better than I would." I Oh, I remember that. And I And you did it better than me, too. absolutely untrue that I did it better than you. However, there's a lot of this kind of protection thing with leaders or just people in life because I think they think if you succeed, I'm going to fail. So, I want to wrap this part at the end around failure.

You look at it completely differently than that. How do you look at it? I want more for you than I want from you. you. you. And and and when I remember we in fact we were in Nashville. Yes. And and I just finished talking and you were we have me sitting beside and I get and I just kind of put the speech together and really it's unreal that you did that. Well, and and I think I looked at you and I thought here you have it.

You'll make it better. And and can I tell you I know you will make it better. And here's why. why. why. If you gave me one of your speeches, you'd make it better. I could make it better. And it's not because I'm better. It's because you already gave me a foundation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's I already got what you got. Now if I get one little one more thing, it just got better. But I wouldn't have had that one little thing if you wouldn't have given me the foundation.

And so I when I was young, Ed, I played ball and I was I was very competitive. competitive. competitive. And and I think I think there's a lot of things about competitive people that's a real advantage to them. So I'm not anti-competitiveness. But here's what I wanted to say. In my own heart, I had a major life change when I lost that competitiveness and decided I would rather help other people succeed because if I win, it's only one. If they win, it's a whole bunch. Very good.

Yeah. And I just at this stage of my life um Yeah. I I get more joy out of out of out of someone else's success. You do. I mean, God's I've got a lot I've got stuff under my I'm okay, but but I just I like to see people do well. I know you do, and I love you for it. By the way, the lesson there is that if someone else is succeeding, it doesn't mean you're failing. And that's the one of the topics of failure that I wanted to make sure we we covered.

I just want to thank you. This is such a tremendous conversation. And real rare when I do the show that as we're doing it, I'm thinking of people that I want to share the episode with. I always tell the audience, make sure you share this with someone you care about. I'm thinking right now of the people that I want to share this with, beginning with my daughter who we talked about in the very beginning. So, I love you. God bless you. By the way, the book, you guys, is How to Get a Return on Failure.

You know, you're getting it now. Fail Smarter, Return Stronger. It is uh is uh is uh it's tremendous. He's he's just he's the best. Thank you. Thank you. God bless you everybody. Share this episode. Max out.