Joel Kinnaman Opens Up on Panic Attacks, Eating Disorders & Going From Rock Bottom to Hollywood

Key Takeaway

When Joel Kinnaman faced debilitating stage fright and panic attacks in theater school, he didn't quit—he went to war with his demons. Instead of avoiding fear, he asked: 'What would provoke my fears the most?' Then he chose the scariest possible challenge: a solo 1-hour-45-minute monologue with 16 different characters. He worked obsessively, memorized it in 10 days, and crushed the performance without throwing up for the first time in years. The lesson? Face your biggest fear head-on with extreme preparation. Your armor is your readiness.

Episode Overview

Actor Joel Kinnaman shares his journey from severe stage fright, panic attacks, and self-doubt in Swedish theater school to becoming a successful Hollywood actor. He reveals how confronting his deepest fears through extreme preparation and deliberate challenge transformed his career and relationship with adversity.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Joel Kinnaman Opens Up on Panic Attacks, Eating Disorders & Going From Rock Bottom to Hollywood from The School of Greatness. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

I was having a panic attack in front of front of front of the whole school. I was like blacked out on stage. And then I started stumbling on a word and and I was like I couldn't quite like latch on. And then finally like I I like stood up and I went like, "This!" And then I walked off. The whole school was just sitting watching me like, "Oh, he's having an emotional breakdown." He is an actor who has starred in some of Hollywood's biggest franchises. But behind the action hero exterior is a man who has had to do the inner work in order to achieve the level of success that he has achieved.

We have the inspiring Joel Kinnaman in the house. I was in the abyss. Something in me is telling me that I can't do this. I can't eat. I'm throwing up. And now I'm having like panic attacks. My constitution can't handle this. How have you been able to navigate eating disorder, stage fright, and panic attacks while also being at the top of Hollywood? So I I started thinking about like these like forces in me. What would provoke them the most? Like let's go to [ __ ] war.

You've been a massive star and you've had an incredible career. And right now you have three different shows on TV. You've got multiple shows in productions. You are one of the most in-demand actors out there. But you've also talked about a few different things with me and also publicly. One, an eating disorder that you've had in the past. past. past. Yeah. Debilitating stage fright, which I wasn't even aware of that, and panic attacks. attacks. attacks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you have been able to be so like on top of your game and accomplish and achieve and and perform so well under pressure.

But how have you been able to navigate eating disorder, stage fright, and panic attacks while also being at the top of Hollywood? Yeah, I think I mean a lot of those issues were stuff that I was like dealing with earlier on. And it was sort of coming into my own, coming into like adulthood and I think I was I'm I'm also sort of still unpacking a little bit of what I was going through and I mean I think some of it was like youthful insecurity, some of it was like a lot of bad habits.

I was drinking a lot, doing a lot of drugs. And And And then and then just I hadn't learned how to deal with like the chatter and the negative voices in my mind and how I had you know all these like different conflicting feelings about myself and you know dealing with self-loathing and not letting myself have success. You know so whenever when you know when whenever I would get close to something that was would potentially be like a big step or or something that would anything that was scary you know I would have these voices in my head that would really like trip me up and and and would like speak to me in most harsh way and What would the voices say?

Like you're not you're not deserving of this success or this is too big for you or you're not ready for it or It would just it was kind of just be like chatter and and and it just negative. Yeah yeah it's hard to put words on the exact words that that it was saying but it was like you like negative energy that you know that I would fail or that I wouldn't succeed that I'm not worthy. And And And yeah so I had I had really bad like It it actually started earlier but even before I was acting it was I have and still have like a it's called pectus excavatum where I have like a small indentation in my chest.

I used to have like a a much bigger indentation in the chest. I I did a sort of a corrective surgery when about 10 years ago. And after that I just wanted to be you couldn't catch me with a shirt on after that. I was But when I grew up like I had this like indentation in my chest and and it was pretty they grade that like from a 1 to 10 severity and I think I had like a 7 and 1/2. So, it was pretty pretty pretty was like It was like sunken in and it affected my posture.

So, I I was like forward and inward rotated and then I think also my shame around that made that it, you know, I had like this kind of a posture. Um and so and I would like in a thuggy way. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. I felt like I was deformed and and I was very ashamed of of the way I would never take my shirt off. Was this 10 years ago? No, this was this was longer ago. This was like when I was like 18, 19.

Sev- even earlier, like 17, 17, 18. And were you in the acting world back then? Is this this when you were in Sweden, right? Sweden, right? Sweden, right? then this this was back in Sweden, yeah, yeah. Um yeah. Um yeah. Um and then I I was kind of living a pretty negative life. I was you know, partying a lot, getting into trouble, doing a lot of drugs, um drugs, um drugs, um kind of aimless, pretty lost and and then I found acting. And it was the first time I really felt like like like there was something like there was a potential that life could be positive and life could be good like and life could even become maybe special and and it really like caught on to me and I got I had a couple of experiences early on where I had the courage to like apply for the theater school and uh and while preparing for that theater school I was working with a professional actor and had like an experience while I was preparing this monologue from Long Day's Journey into Night and it was it clicked in in a special way and I realized later it was the first time I experienced flow experienced flow experienced flow and all these emotions came out and the words came out in a way that I hadn't really planned it and it was to my relationship with my own father and it just like became something explosive and uh uh uh and this and this and this teacher or actor you know, he he's sort of was the first one to really encourage me in the way where he said like, "Look, you could do this uh for for a profession if you want to." to." to." And um and then it just like it caught on like a virus in me and I became completely obsessed.

Um You're what? 18 19 20? 21. Really? So you didn't really need to get into any theater or acting? No. I was in a TV series when I was 10 years old. years old. years old. Okay. So I had a childhood experience of acting and then that kind of fell to the wayside. I just did that and had a childhood experience of it. Um and then that kind of disappeared. But I did have a relationship to the profession in a way and I think that's why even in this kind of low state that I was in Mhm.

the idea of acting the seed had been planted even like at an earlier stage. earlier stage. earlier stage. Yeah, and so then I started like applying for this theater school and and and then eventually I didn't get in right away. I think I got in at the fourth attempt. fourth attempt. fourth attempt. Wow. Wow. Wow. Then like this nervousness nervousness nervousness uh uh uh just caught on again and it and it attached and this like these this kind of chatter of chatter of chatter um and these negative thoughts like latched on to that with a vengeance and um um um and then I was dealing with it every time I went on stage.

Every time before I soon as I heard the audience chatter like the audience murmur like my mouth would like filled with water and I was like, "Okay, here we go." And I would actually I would have a bucket prepared and I would like Come on, really? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Before Well, this is a stage theater. Huh? Huh? Huh? This is like on stage theater, not it could even be like, you know, just a you know, you know, you know, 10 people in the audience, you know.

Really? You throw up almost every time. Bro, up time. Come on. Before every live performance? Yeah, the first 3 4 years of of doing theater. It was uh Was that it? I mean, that can't be enjoyable after the first year. You're like, okay, is this going to ever end? It was brutal. Uh and um and then I I started getting like uh panic attacks, too. Uh I like blacked out on stage in front of front of front of middle of the audience? Yeah, in front of This was in front of the whole school, like all the students and all the teachers.

We're doing this like storytelling project. It was like 3 years in. years in. years in. And um And um And um and I I uh yeah, I I hadn't prepared properly. And and it was like it was just a storytelling thing. We were going to we're going to tell a part of a novel, like 100 Years of Solitude of Ga- Gabriel García Márquez. And uh and I was telling this one like segment of the story, and we were four actors on stage, and I was number two, so three and four had to wait until I was done to tell their story.

So, it was like everyone was depending on each other. And I started out, and then I started stumbling on the word, and and I was like, like, like, and then and then people kind of laughed a little bit in the audience. They they thought that like, oh, this is this was like kind of baked in. He was He's This is This is He meant to do this. And then but I couldn't quite like latch on. And and And and And and eventually uh yeah, I just completely like lost my [ __ ] And uh Did you just blank?

Did you walk off the stage? Did you you you I I kept saying this one sentence over and over again, like Dona Maria. Do- Dona Maria and it was just like and then it was this empty void. And it was like And I I realized later, like I was having a panic attack in front of front of front of the whole school and all the audience. And uh and it went on for I think in real time about 3 minutes. But it felt like 3 hours.

like 3 years. Oh my god. And it was it was it was And And And there was a lot of of you know cuz in school, you know, the the the those in theater schools like the the when you're playing up for the other students, everyone is like laughing extra much. So, there was a lot of people that were like They still thought that it was like part of it. And then that's slowly started to die out. And there was just this one like crazy Polish teacher.

He was like was like was like He He thought for a good 2 minutes and 50 seconds he thought that it was still like the the it it the rest of the audience it had like settled like oh he's having an emotional breakdown and we're watching. we're watching. we're watching. Oh, wow. Uh and uh and then finally like I I like stood up and I went like this. And then I walked off there across I walked off there across the whole stage and there was a door on the other side and I opened the door and then I hear like And I slammed the door, kicked the closed door, and then I just stood there for like a couple of seconds like everyone in in the whole school was just sitting watching me like watching this like unfold.

And then And then I walked back down. I sat down and I think I said again like And then I I was like this book. And everyone was like what? And then And then I started over and then I And then I told the whole thing mechanically like a robot. And then I was done. And then I I'm like was done. And then I I'm like I'm done. And then I looked over to the person after. person after. person after. And my friend who was in the class just looked at me and was like after this whole thing she was like Now you want me to continue telling the story with the book?

Like Like anyone is listening to the story of the book. I'm like thanks. Best layup ever. ever. ever. Um yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean that seems like a I don't know how I would be able to rebound from that. No. Like specifically if you're 23 or something and you're with your peers in school and professors. professors. professors. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It feels so much bigger than it actually is. It feels like my world is over type of mentality. Maybe it didn't for you, but but but 100% it did.

Like total humiliation, embarrassment. How did you learn how to have the career you have with that not holding you back to the next step? next step? next step? Yeah. I mean, it it it it became like the seminal moment for me and I sort of like trace back like whatever kind of set my career apart from some of the people that I grew up with and came up with and people that I thought were like way more talented than I me uh and um it it sort of like traces a little bit back to this and how I dealt with this.

It really was like the the moment for me and how I dealt with it. It's for me that like it that sent me like into an abyss. I was I was like the the darkest period that I can remember. It felt like I was in an abyss because, you know, I'd been living this sort of negative, empty life without really without really without really any real any real any real hope for the future and and you know, I didn't I actually didn't finish Swedish high school.

I I I was there, but I didn't get like my final grades. final grades. final grades. Um Um Um last year of school I was there 40% of the time. So, it was I I I was already kind of like You were like a troublemaker. I was I was I was not like doing the the right things. Um and I you know, at best I was like maybe I'll like be a bartender and then maybe one point I'll have my own bar or something like that.

That's sort of as far as I was my dreams went. Um before this sort of acting thing and then the sort of the potential of this whole other life and and this feeling of like you know, doing connecting with a text and then seeing like the effect that it had on people that saw it and like feeling like feeling like feeling like some something that looked felt like respect and respect and respect and promise, you know? So, it was this whole potential of a world of a life that was there.

And then when I was and and and and getting into this national theater school, that was a huge deal. Um Um Um In Sweden, right? In Sweden. It was It's very difficult to get in, actually. It was was was It's the national theater school. And and it's like that is the like when you go there, you study for 4 years. I think now it's 3, but then it was 4 years. After that, you are an actor. Like that is your profession. You actually have like a PhD in acting.

It's like It's a And you're getting booked for gigs in Sweden or you're getting opportunities it's still not easy life, you know? Like I think the the average I think the the average thing is like 2 years after that school, like 50% are like unemployed, yeah. You know? So, but so it's still like it's not not like your life is set, but but you in the eyes of society, you are an actor, which actually means something different in Scandinavia and in Europe than it does here.

Cuz here like any, you know, waiter at a restaurant is an actor cuz they did, you know, a couple of voice-over things in a commercial. Um it's it's different. Like there it's it's you feel the the the essence that it's an old profession that demands respect and and it's like uh it's It's looked at with more respect there. It is and it's also you don't say that you are an actor unless you are. And and it and it's like uh uh uh And [clears throat] being an actor is like then you're working in the theater and you're regularly like doing job It It's like It just has a different weight of of of to say that you are.

Sure. At least at the the the 20 years ago. Yeah, yeah. I don't know maybe things have changed. Sure, sure, sure. So, so to get in there and it was like, you know, uh every year it's like 10 spots. Oh, that's it. And and it's like about, you know, 1,000 to 1,500 people applying. And the tryouts are go for over 2 weeks. And uh actually 3 weeks. And the last two uh like uh like uh like uh tryout three and four are a week each. And you're there like, you know, 12 hours a day for for a week for each.

And you're like doing all these different tests and So, you were one of 10 out of 1,000 Yeah. that applied. Yeah. Wow. And so, like getting in was like it has begun, you know, like I was on this path and and I like things were I was feeling good. Like it there were there were times when we were doing stuff I was like I think I crushed it. pretty good. You know, like I like I had I felt like I I genuinely felt like some of the the the stuff that I'd gone through when I was a kid and in my teens and um and my personality that, you know, I'd hung out with a lot of guys that then ended up becoming like career criminals and but at the same time I sort of came from a household with a lot of women and uh mom was a therapist.

I was used to talking about my feelings. I had this sort of this little blend in my personality that I was already noticing like I can be like a little intimidating and dominant, but I'm also like it's pretty easy for me to be vulnerable and uh Sensitive. And then I could just feel like it's lending itself these qualities I'm I can find myself in all these these different kinds of characters and um anyway, so like I was in the abyss there because the like I was feeling that like it's like something in me is telling me that I can't do this.

And and it's like I'm not I'm not being able to I can't eat. I'm throwing up and I'm having like panic attacks. Like it's like like like my constitution can't handle this. So, I guess I should quit, you know. And that idea or the notion of that was just like so devastating. devastating. devastating. Um Um Um It was like that was literally like giving up on life. It was like I'm I'm you know, you know, you know, I've never been suicidal, but that was like the closest to like Uh Uh Uh you know, that that that just felt like giving up on any promise of life.

So, it was it was so devastating to me, and I think that because the stakes of that was so big, I was able to like challenge myself in the way that I've So, I I started thinking about like I can't do that. Like I can't do that, but I can't continue. I can't continue like this. I'm like having panic attacks. I'm I'm throwing up all the time. I'm throwing up every It's It's unbearable. It's unbearable. So, what do you do? So, I started thinking like what is the worst thing that these voices, these like what would provoke my demons the most?

Like what is the scariest thing that I could possibly do? And then And then And then right after the storytelling exercise, we had this uh the next sort of block in our school was we got to do our own projects. projects. projects. And we And we And we we had a month to prepare for whatever we wanted to. And Like a monologue show or something, yeah. Scenes or whatever you had. But most of basically everyone kind of took it as an opportunity to take a little bit of a break, and they did like people get got together like four people doing two scenes from a big play, and just like really worked on those.

And people weren't like challenging themselves that much. I was like I need to figure this out, and I'm going to use this time. And so, I started thinking like what is the worst thing that these voices, these like forces in me, what would provoke them the most? Like let's go to war. You know, that's that's my that's my that's my And then uh the scariest thing that I could imagine would be to do like a monologue. monologue. monologue. A monologue on stage with no scenography, nothing.

Just me on an empty stage. No support, no nothing. And there was this one play called Howie the Rookie that I'd seen. And it's it's written for two actors where the the first storyteller is also a character. And the second storyteller is also a character. And and the first storyteller tells the story up to a certain point. And and then the second storyteller takes over and and you realize that the second storyteller was a character in the first one and and the first storyteller is a character in the second one.

Ah, interesting. Um so they're both like characters in the in the story. And um and I did both. And and I started I was really obsessed with like old stand-up. Uh so I was obsessed with the Richard Pryor. Mhm. And the way that he told stories [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] and he would, you know, he would put like voices and life on like inanimate objects like he you know, like the car went went went you know, like Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and he would be like the dog came up and he's like, "Why you Why don't linger on that too long?

It'll [ __ ] with you." And you know, and he had this way of like looking, you know, he it it was like this sort of monologue way of uh you know, talking, you know, talking to himself but embodying different characters. different characters. different characters. And and for some reason I I I had a friend who who who was like suggested that maybe I do it a little bit like that. And then I I dove into that. that. that. And and I just started working on this play like a lunatic like madman.

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Fastest according to Ookla Speed Test Intelligence Data, second half 2025. half 2025. half 2025. All rights reserved. I ended up creating 16 different characters. Oh my gosh. That all had a different body language, different movement, different voice. And they would all talk to each other. And but then I would do like slight variations of them based on the different storytellers. different storytellers. different storytellers. Cuz it was in two versions. And then the the, you know, the storytellers were also characters. Wow. And um and I started like working on this like a psychopath.

And um And um And um 10 days in, and the monologue ended up being like an hour 45. 10 days in, I was completely off book. I was like completely off book. I was just like running it, running it, running it, doing it, doing it. Off book meaning you're not reading it anymore. it anymore. it anymore. I'm I'm not reading off the script. I'm like like like it memorized. it memorized. it memorized. Yeah. I had it memorized. Holy cow. Holy cow. Holy cow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Um and it's funny actually how memory works. Cuz it's you when when you're an actor, people often say like, "How do you How do you like memorize things?" But it's almost like memory is like comes like this is like on top over. Uh it's not like you start remembering from A to B and then C and then D. It's like all of a sudden you remember everything from like A to D and then you remember like K to P, you know? It's like And then all of a sudden you like like it's just like sinks down and then you have all these blocks.

And then when we played it up for the school uh like I murdered it. murdered it. murdered it. I I I You were like I blah annihilated it. It was I didn't have a stumble. I was like I was so laser because it literally felt like my life was depending on it. And um and I worked so hard on it. I worked I was like day and night I worked on it. I didn't let it out of my mind. It was like there was there was no distractions because there was nothing else.

So nothing could distract me. It was like I was in this bubble like trying to save my life. You became the characters. Oh, it was like beyond that. It was like I would but I but I but it was like it was very it was just like hard work. Like I mean honestly doesn't feel like work when you No, yeah. especially not when your life depends on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. didn't throw up before I went on stage. Interesting. Your first time. Yeah. Before Yeah. Before Yeah.

Before the the three years prior to that where you were throwing up constantly before Yeah. performance, were you thinking I'm worried about what everyone's going to think about my performance or I hope I do well or I hope that I don't mess up? Would you have those thoughts at all? I think all of them, you know? Of afraid like any any kind of like fear would like would like would like I would let take hold. But this time This time same fear, insecurity, or worry? It actually like I didn't entirely defeat the throw up there.

It was the the first time I didn't I think I threw up like couple more times after that, yeah, yeah. After that, there was one other another project that happened that had its its own sort of psychology that ultimately like killed that for me. Like it killed the the throwing up thing, but but this was like it it was a success. And in terms of the throwing up, it was like it was a big step forward. step forward. step forward. What happened for your your mindset of belief after that though?

Did you start to believe, oh, I can take on any acting challenge there is and I know I can crush it as long as I commit to it? Did others start to say, oh, we we're looking at him differently than the rest of his peers? I'm not aware of how other people perceived it. I I wasn't thinking or I at least I don't remember about about that. But for me, it was I really got out of my own way and and my confidence like really like boosted.

And and but but it was so much of my confidence about how I dealt with adversity. Um and it's actually like that stuck with me ever since. That's still like if I if I'm feeling like afraid, I've learned how to face my fears through that. That was like it was the first time it taught me how to like face my fears head on. When you have a big [clears throat] a fearful moment now, whether it's a big scene or I don't know, a big actor you're working with that you like really respect or whatever it is.

it is. it is. Yeah. How do you think and approach fear so that it doesn't take over you? Prepare. Prepare. Prepare. Preparation. It's all about preparation. To to just like do everything that I can to prepare, control what I can control. Like it's like you can't control if director is going to have a bad day and don't like you or if your co-star is like a narcissistic ego maniac and feeds off of other people's insecurity and is going to try to push you down. You know, you can't control those things, but you can control how prepared you are to face everything.

And so, like to come in like so like because that's like your armor. Like the preparation is your armor. And um and then especially as an actor like the number one thing, but it's like you'd be surprised how often you face actors who like don't quite know their lines. Yeah. It's like It's like It's like Like even when you're You mean like right before the scene or like in the scene? In like like on the day, you know, like you see them like studying their lines like like Should have done that a while ago, buddy.

So, preparation I'm hearing is what helps you overcome fear and make you feel more confident. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But we were just talking beforehand you know, during the workout that for a shoot like For All Mankind, which is in its fifth season now, is that right? Fifth season? You're playing an older character, so you have to use 5 hours of makeup. You have a 1:00 a.m. call time. Yeah. You're in a chair, you know, with makeup on you for 5 hours, then you're going into shooting at 7:00 a.m., then you do a 12-hour day.

12-hour day. 12-hour day. How do you prepare for the next day when you're exhausted? How do you learn and embody the lines and the character scenes and the emotions of tomorrow when you've given everything for today and you're barely getting to sleep? Well, I've had a lot of real jobs. jobs. jobs. So, like I know how lucky I am that I get to do Yes. Yes. Yes. So, like when when things can be a little mentally challenging in in my like pretend job, it's it's easy to go to that and and just like kind of find gratitude.

And and for me gratitude helps my discipline. Um but you know, it's about finding time. For me it's like I have a structure of like just especially when you when you're on a series, you You you don't get that much time before to to get the scripts often and often there's like revisions and stuff. So, but I always make sure that that I have at least, and this is a minimum, that I'm working on a scene for three nights. Before the scene? Yeah, and then the memory is like it's not so important like how long I work, but it's that I work, sleep, work, sleep, work, sleep.

Cuz it's like in the sleep that the memorization happens. So, so I have to have three, minimum three. So, I'm always like at least three nights ahead on everything that I'm working on, but I like to be five nights ahead cuz that's when it's like really solid. Um and for me it's like the preparation, the more the the more prepared I am, the deeper in my bones the text is, the more freedom I have to improvise and play with it and like to go away from the text because like if you're if you're if you're really prepared, really prepared, really prepared, then then then you really know the scene and you know the other person's lines.

And so then if you start improvising or something happens like a mistake, someone stumbles and you and and it the scene and then you can roll with it. And then because you know the scene, it's going to be much easier to find a creative way of using it and then getting back into the scene so you can actually use it and you actually be able to use that little moment of reality that happened, you know, that can like infuse a scene with life that just Oh [ __ ] didn't feel like it was rehearsed at all, you know?

Right, right, right. So, like all that is like preparation, it gives you the freedom and the looseness. If you're trying to remember your line or thinking to remember your line in any way, then there's a little tenseness that builds up, you know? There's a little ten tension in you that takes away from the presence and the relaxation. relaxation. relaxation. And I think everyone, you know, even if you're playing like a character that's tense, there's a way to be tense but loose, you know? Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

And I think it and and it when I when I watch things you really want to see someone that's loose. Mhm. And you probably feel even more pressure because you've got whatever 50 people counting on you for that those hours that day in production that if you don't remember your lines you might have more stress on yourself think I don't want to mess this up to waste the time and Yeah, and then it just becomes a like getting one that works instead of having five great options, you know?

you know? you know? And and it's also like when you're leading a show you know, you you set the tone and you want to lead by example. When did you get kind of your first big break or the first few breaks where you're like, oh maybe I can do this and actually make a full-time living not just be considered a an actor in Sweden but really make an abundant life for myself. Yeah. And well after that thing that happened in in school and my first big job that I got with my first job out of school was would have been like a nerve-racking thing for anyone.

It was one of Sweden's great maybe greatest playwrights. He had just taken the helm of a new national theater. theater. theater. The National Theater of Gothenburg. And and his opening statement, you know, his opening play where he had done a complete new rendition of Crime and Punishment. Punishment. Punishment. Okay. And and then he asked me to do Raskolnikov. Which incredibly demanding and incredible role. And it ended up being you know, 3 hours and 45 minutes and and I was on stage for the entirety of it.

So as like an opening of a new national theater with that kind of a It was like all as big as a play can get in Sweden. But after my monologue like it felt like a easy like cakewalk like cakewalk like cakewalk Really? Yeah, I have other actors here like you know, to talk to and not I mean I shouldn't exaggerate it like a cakewalk but it was like it was manageable. Like the nerves were manageable and and I was like more just like enjoying it.

I I'd like broken through that sort of kind of like shimmer of like fear and anxiety that I was like living in and and before that I I broke through like every now and then and like I felt the light and the sun on my face my face my face and I was like kind of broken through and like I was really like enjoying my work and enjoying it like living in it, being there and I could like focus on the actual work. What was the psychology then that broke the the throw up nerves?

Cuz you said like later I found out the psychology of what that was. Yeah, it was actually like it was with the same director. So so he was working he he after the own projects that we did we were allowed to go out to a theater and do six months at a theater and usually you'd get like these small parts. Mhm. You know, you'd come in and say the king is dead and then you walk out, you know. It was like the semester where you got to sort of practice of being in a real theater but very often the students didn't get like substantial work.

He had this play where the lead actor had gotten sick and had to bail so and they it was to and had to bail so and they it was right before like the week before opening he had to like stop he had an issue with his brain it was a tragedy. He he recovered later and he's doing great. So they were like in this like limbo they needed a replacement but that was the lead role and so I I went to Gothenburg and and like and he auditioned me for it and it was like cold read but I was like reading it and and I felt like I connected with with the material.

I was playing a 12-year-old and I like even at the cold read I like found like in me a little bit how to be a kid in my body and and so so then I got that I got the gig. And um And um And um and then it was a it was supposed to be after the summer I had like four weeks and then after the summer I had a three-day rehearsal three-day rehearsal three-day rehearsal and then they said you know and it's fine if you know for the first couple of weeks you know like if you have the script with you you're more there like sort of as a placeholder to make it flow you know cuz we don't have proper rehearsal time for you.

But this would be for a live audience. Yeah. They're saying you can [clears throat] have the script with a live audience. live audience. live audience. Yeah it was it was like I don't know. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Um but I mean I was never going to do that. So I had like a month so I learned the whole thing and and I was so I showed up at the first rehearsal and No script. No no no and it was it was a really good vibe you know with everyone was very happy.

Yeah. And I think that because I was like the replacement replacement replacement that nobody had any expectation on and then exceeded everyone's expectation I didn't have any nerves like the pressure was kind of off of me and because I'd also prepared so hard and then I had this experience of like so this like sort of this thing of like preparation is going to be my salvation had sort of like that had like sort of sunk in. So I think I still have that like I'm you know and I I don't always live up to it to enough for for myself anymore but there's something with you know like I love to come and like show the people I'm working with what I've been cooking up you know and and that sort of makes it more fun than nervousness you know.

But so that that that that was the the play that like after that experience then the the throwing up was gone. I haven't done it since. Wow, that's great. Until today. Until today. Until today. Now you're starting to like build a name I'm assuming in Sweden and now here's this college kid who's now crushed this, you know, a new theater thing and Yeah. I'm assuming you got some other gigs after that, but when did you finally feel like, "Oh, I'm actually starting to make this thing work financially and oh, Hollywood's calling and you know, other things are happening." Yeah, I had a I had a like a a crazy period after I I um I was [snorts] doing this play and it got a lot of attention.

And then I got my first lead role in a in a film at the same time, but it was shooting in Stockholm and I was doing this play in Gothenburg. And and it was the lead in both. Mhm. At exactly the same time, but but for some reason the the film agreed to try to like figure out the schedule. And so the way that we did it was we I shot in Stockholm during the nights. And then I would sleep on the train. A lot. A lot.

A lot. And then do the do the play. Next day. Daytime. Daytime. Daytime. So I [clears throat] would go back and forth. And then you'd drive back at night after the play? a couple of weeks where I slept 8 hours per week. per week. per week. It was like but I I would never do that again. I I I I almost lost my mind. You're 24, you're like, "I can do anything." Yeah, yeah. I don't know like I was like 24 months yeah and it was also there was you know, I was playing Raskolnikov too who's also like he's schizophrenic.

So like I mean that's an interpretation of Raskolnikov, but Raskol in uh in in Russian means divided. And uh so that's how I interpret him that he had like a schizophrenia. And the way that I was playing it in the in the theater was that that that cuz I really like the idea of like kind of when you're in when you're playing theater, you know, there's a fourth wall, right? And you but you sort of ignore everything that happens in the audience. So it's the fourth wall there.

But, uh But, uh But, uh there's something that is fake about that, right? It's like cuz you're in the same room and one of the beautiful things about doing theater is that you're in the same room. And then the although of course there's theater where you break the fourth wall and you're like you take in the audience and all that. But, then that can kind of pull you out of the story, too. So, but I found this way because we were we were playing this uh we did have we had a bunch of like daytime shows where we would play for like high school students.

You know, some of them they were like on their phones and you know, they didn't ask to come there. They were like Yeah, this is [ __ ] 3 hours of [ __ ] Dostoevsky. It's not what they asked for. And uh so, what I would do is like because I was like sort of hearing voices like in the character. also. also. also. So, like if I heard someone like talking in the audience, I would be in a scene and I was we we rehearsed for 4 months.

I was like I was so deep in it. I was like I was so deep in it. I like I knew the material and the text so well. I had such confidence in the material. So, I could be like in the middle of a monologue and then I'd hear like some kids talking. I'd be like, "What? What did you say?" And then I'd walk up to them and I was like, "What? What?" And then and then and then and then they'd be quiet and and I'd be like like like and I would play it as if it was like my voices in my head.

Um and then it and then it gets everyone's attention and also then all the kids stop talking because they don't want to be called out, you know? And then and then I would just be able to like fold back into the the the the the monologue or or the the conversation. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Now, spring always feels like a reset. Clearing things out, simplifying what you don't need, and Apple Card is built with that same idea in mind. There's no annual fee, no late fees, and no foreign transaction fees.

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You're like Like my patience was getting like a little bit like Gosh. And sometimes these kids were like annoying and they'd be like be like be like So I'd be like, "What?" And then they'd keep talking. keep talking. keep talking. And then And then I I'd be like, "Shut up. Shut up. Shut up." And I'd go up and like almost confront them, but in my mind I was doing it like I'm confronting my inner demons. But you know, sometimes I was wearing an axe. Or not wearing, I was holding an axe in my hand.

And then I would be standing like And there was these like kids that were like talking. And at first they were laughing. And I'd be like, "You think that's funny? that's funny? that's funny? I'll kill you." Oh my god. with an axe. And And this is the uh after we had like a couple of crisis uh uh we had crisis meetings within the theater after. And they were like, "Joel, you cannot threaten the children in the audience. You cannot tell them that you're going to kill them.

That is unacceptable. This is like You're like, "I'm an actor." "I think you need to sleep. I think you need to sleep." I mean, I thought it was great because it was like And I thought I never like broke character. I was always like Yeah, it was uh Yeah. Some kids were a little traumatized, I think. And then when the the play was done, then I ended up doing six feature films holy cow in 16 months. And uh and in Sweden we do like 20 films a year in the whole So I was like really uh I was just like working so much.

For me, success prior to that looked like you know you know you know working in theater and then occasionally like getting a job in front of the camera. That's like that was success. And then without really having thought much about it, I'd exceeded my own expectations like by a long shot. long shot. long shot. Within a year or year and a half? when I was like, "Huh, you know, maybe I could do something else, you know?" Was Hollywood or like the big screen in LA ever an idea or a dream or was it more like I just want to be in Sweden, I want to crush it here and make money and be respected?

respected? respected? It was never like a real I wasn't a thing, you know, because for me it was like like like not being a loser was like the that was like the first that was the first dream. And then it was like, "Okay, like I'm an actor." Like that [clears throat] that was such a victory. So then it was like being a working actor. Like that's victory. Um being able to like cuz also a a lot of actors that even they go they go through the artist tax of like getting into the National Theatre School, couple years later they're like really struggling.

Um so it's not like it's a guaranteed thing, you know. So so for me like to be someone that like gets to work and like I'm at in the theater and every now and then I get to do like a part in a TV series or part of the movie. And then it was like a a a smash that um without like really the the the things that were happening without me like sort of setting the goal for it. It was more like I I was like winning against my own demons and then all this other stuff kind of just came.

And then they were casting for Thor, like the first Thor movie. movie. movie. Right in the beginning of the whole first wave of Marvel movies. And uh What was this? What year is this? 2000 8. 8. 8. Okay. Something like that. Yeah, and and then of course they were looking in the Scandinavian countries. He's a you know, he's a he's a he's a Norse god. So you're around what? 30 now? 28, 30, 30 or 28, 29. And then I got this for my Swedish agent. They were like, "This is like they want you to put put your stuff on tape." I was like, "What's that?" I like Never heard of that before.

No. Like, "What do you mean put put myself on a tape?" They're like, "Oh, record." I was like, "With a with a video camera? So, I got to record it. Okay." Okay. So, I did it. And then and I got this text and I think Kenneth Branagh was the director of it. It had like a little Shakespearean feel to it. And I never really played in English, but my father was American, so I I I like loose with English English was an emotional language for me.

You know, a lot of people that learn a second language, it's hard to be like to express your emotions or To own it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But for me, that that was never the case with English since I grew up speaking with my dad. And then I you know, I put myself on tape for this and I had a friend like film it. It was like all dark in like living room. Um my old studio apartment on the south side. side. side. And uh And uh And uh and we send it in and then I didn't think much more about it.

It kind of it was like a novel exercise, but I but I but I didn't you know, pay much mind to it, but I felt like I kind of put my my stink on that one. Yeah, crushed that one. Yeah. Yeah. And uh uh uh I had like a tear coming down. It was like I was That's not too shabby, you know. Well, send it off, but didn't think think think much more about it. And then my my my one of my sisters, she was like, "Hey, it was 2 weeks later." She was like, "Hey, there's like a picture of you in The Guardian." I was like, "The Guardian?

What's The Guardian?" And she's like, "The The British Mhm. newspaper." I was like, "What? For what?" She's like, "Oh, it's it says something about Thor." I was like, "Thor? What? They're They're posting pictures of people that like send in tapes?" Yeah. And And And like, "What's going on? This is strange." And then and then she sent me the article and it was like, "Oh, the four like it's now down to like four people to play Thor. And you didn't even know? know? know? heard anything. So, I was like, what?

That's crazy. So, I was like, um so, it was like me, uh it was like Chris Hemsworth, and I think Tom Hiddleston, and then some other guy. I was like, oh, this is so weird. Like, Your agent didn't tell you? No, they know. So, then I called them. I was like, "Hey." They were like, "Yeah, we heard something about that." I was like, "So, what does this mean?" And uh and then and and now I was still um Oh, that's right. I was still shooting the movie and uh and uh I was doing another movie.

Right, I was shooting another movie, and I was doing a new run of the play. Mhm. Um so, I was like I didn't have a day off in the upcoming 2 months. It was like I I was It was Right, I was doing Easy Money. That's what That's what it was. Yeah, I was shooting Easy Money. And uh and and then we done we started up a new run of Crime and Punishment. So, it was like it was all again one of these like schedules where I was like working every day for for 2 months.

And they were like asking for me to come to to uh New York to do like a screen test with Natalie Portman. And then I couldn't do that. Really? sending another tape, and uh and uh yeah, I didn't get it. But uh but then that's when that like, "Huh, maybe this isn't so hard." Maybe it's not that far away. And then um and then my manager, Shelly, who I still work with, uh she came to Sweden and and sat down and had a meeting with me, and it was like, "I really think you should come over here." And um And um And um and then and then and then I was like, "Yeah, I'm I'm open to that." that." that." And then a few months later I decided to like give it a shot, and then I I moved over.

Really? over. Really? over. Really? Um Um Um So, that's when you moved to LA. I moved to LA. And now when you move there, are you thinking, "Okay, she's going to put me out on auditions, or I want to meet people" or what's the what's the mindset? Yeah, so I did a couple of more like self-tapes. Uh Uh Uh I did like a self tape for Mad Max and was like apparently like in the mix for that as well. So, I was like Hm. I think this is going to be pretty easy, you know.

you know. you know. I was like, I think I got this. And um and then what then I came to the like I came to to to LA and and I got like set up with an agent. So, I I kind of came I got like a whole set up right away, which which is like makes it so much easier in your like Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have a team. I have I have friends who like come over that didn't quite make it in Sweden and then they come to LA and try to I'm like I think you should like focus on Sweden first and then like try to be a big fish in a small pond first and then Yeah, but I then I really struggled.

Really? struggled. Really? struggled. Really? Yeah. Uh I'm I mean, for me it was that that's how I felt and I think it was like 4 or 5 months I didn't get anything. And for me that was like the most rejection I'd ever gotten in the acting cuz I was doing auditions like weekly and weekly and weekly and it. nothing getting nothing and I mean, back in Sweden you were doing work constantly. constantly. constantly. Yeah. Yeah. And and sort of like blowing up there. When I'd moved to the US, then all of a sudden I became All the stuff that I'd done came out in Sweden um while I was in the US and then I became really famous in Sweden.

Really? Like Like Like really famous. Uh and uh but I was in the US. So, I was like No one knew who you were. Yeah. Still here. like looking at this like Facebook page like half a million. And and it wasn't even mine. It was like someone else's. someone else's. someone else's. At that point in Sweden. That Yeah, exactly. It was a weird Wow. weird experience to follow it from afar. You have all this success in your home country but you're here for 5 months. And then I was like and I was just like bombing on every Really?

you know, I just couldn't couldn't even get a callback. When did the opportunity finally finally finally break for you then? And then and it was actually then I went home to Sweden for a for Christmas break. I had this movie like Easy Money come out that became like a big hit in Sweden and and then I got this audition for The Killing. Killing. Killing. And And And and I did that in my friend's apartment. So, I think like the mojo of like doing the tapes in like apartments in Stockholm was better than I sent I sent that in and then they wanted to see me again on The Killing and did it a couple times and then and then I got that and then that's when it sort of started in the US.

Yeah. That was my first job in the US. That was about 2009 10? Yeah. I moved to LA end of like in September 2009 and I think I booked The Killing in like January 2010. Something like that. So, it's been 16 years Yeah. of success now. Just 16 Has there ever been any down seasons in the last 16 years? Because it seems like every year you're doing a few things that come out. I mean a career has like, you know, like these little I mean I've been working consistently, but it was like I was doing The Killing I was not grateful enough to that what that was.

I was like, I want to be a movie star. I was I was like there was a while there where I was like I was getting a little too cocky. Really? Yeah, for sure. And and I was like, this show I want to be a movie star. But now TV shows are like the big things now. now. now. that was still like back in the day where there was like movie stars was like like like doing movies was like a level up. And then I got Robocop and and and and then I then I understood how this whole sort of like value system in the in the industry works and it's like you're like a stock.

How does that work? Well, it's like So, I got this, you know, this was like, you know, very well-known brand sort of um um um potential franchise. potential franchise. potential franchise. You know, everyone thought that was going to be be a franchise and Robocop or Yeah, Robocop. You know, like it was new rendition of Robocop and I got that off like you know, cool series and then everyone is kind of like placing bets on you as if RoboCop is going to be a hit. You know, because because in the interim, yes, so that's like the hot period, right?

Like after you've done it and it had pretty good like internal buzz, like it was looking good. But it hasn't come out yet. but they're selling you on it. So then people are like placing bets on you. So you get a couple like you get a couple of chances that regardless if it hits or not, uh Interesting. Yeah. You got to get something in there, you know, to kind of It's like uh the next vine. You know, you got to grab onto the next vine that will swing you along.

What did you get during that season when they were editing RoboCop and they're, "Oh, this is going to be a big thing." Um so I I I had I got Run All Night, which was this uh movie with Liam It was like a Warner Brothers movie with Liam Neeson. There was another one I could have done this Guy Ritchie movie that but I'd already said yes to this other director, so I I was going to honor that. But yeah, and then and then RoboCop RoboCop RoboCop um um um it didn't really it it did okay like it was like it wasn't a bomb.

It ended up making money, but like it took a while. It wasn't a hit. It was not a hit. It like and it didn't I remember the Lego movie like opened above it. Oh, yeah. And it was also it was a a little bit bad luck cuz it was like the whole Eastern Seaboard was uh shut down on the opening weekend cuz it was like there was some winter storm. Um these like little things that like, you know, that probably took like 5 million off of it and and 5 million off on that opening would have probably made it uh You never know.

You know, where it would have been a moderate enough hit that they, you know, greenlit a second one. But so they didn't. didn't. didn't. And then and then all of a sudden, that was the first time in my career where I felt like felt like felt like it would it would like went down a little bit. little bit. little bit. went down? went down? went down? Yeah. My stock went down a little bit. And it was still like my stock was still way better than it was like 2 years ago, but it was it was a little bit down from there.

there. there. This is This is what I want to know then, Joel. How do you when your work goes down in the eyes of the industry, how does your self-worth navigate that? Does your self-worth go down? Or how do you keep confidence when you're not getting the external results that you desire? Yeah. That was actually an interesting time cuz I think that was it was a period where I started partying. I started doing a lot of blow. LA life, huh? Yeah. I was living in Hollywood, a lot of cocaine.

It was like cocaine two, three, sometimes four times a week. Yeah. So, you're in the Hollywood life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. caught up in the scene. Yeah. You know? So, Wow. and then I felt like and then I So, I was in that, and then I felt like felt like felt like the career was going a little bit down. I was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." And then I had a moment with myself. I was like, "Okay, let's like take a step back here.

Like, what's what's going on here?" here?" here?" And and then I was like the scripts I was getting sent to me were like like this [clears throat] is not this is not as good. Like this is not I'm not getting the things that I want to do at all. And and it this is a big difference from what it was just a year ago and like the level of the scripts and like how how interesting the characters are. So, then I like kind of uh shape myself up, like stop partying.

And then and then I said to my representations, like like I just need to go out and audition. Like cuz I wasn't really auditioning because I was getting sent scripts. I was like like I want to audition for everything. Really? everything. Really? everything. Really? Like sent Yeah, I I wanted to like show people what I can do. Like remind people what what I can do. all you did was a couple self-tapes, you got some gigs, and then you just kept getting sent stuff. Yeah. And then and then and all of a sudden it was starting to to roll, and I was getting scripts sent to me, which is like so much nicer.

Um Right, right. So, you didn't have to do the LA thing where a lot of actors have to go and audition constantly. Well, I did that for the her Before the Killing. Gotcha. Killing. Gotcha. Killing. Gotcha. Yeah. And then and then it it and then that kind of changed it. So, then I was getting offers for things. Um so, then I went out and just started like auditioning for auditioning for auditioning for for things and uh How long was that? Like 6 months or something or No, it wasn't it wasn't that long.

It was like a few months. Yeah, a few months. But you got back in the reps. You got Let me prepare. Let me like And then and then I was like I was approaching the auditions like with a chip on my shoulder. I would be like I would So, I sort of went back a little bit to the same I I I was like over preparing for these uh for these auditions and and like I I was like I'm going to do like incredible scenes out of these auditions.

That was sort of my mindset. Murder. You're just crushing it. some pretty cool uh stuff. Like I I was And it's kind of got me fired up. And what was the response? And the thing was that it it did create I sort of had a gut feeling that that would create some positive momentum and it did and I it was like a showed my work to a couple of like casting agents that maybe weren't like that familiar and and then that led to auditioning for Suicide Squad and then uh uh uh and then I got Suicide Squad and then and then that was kind of the next vine that kind of swung me to the next What do you feel like was the biggest show or project or movie that you did that really kind of took you to the biggest level?

I mean, I don't think I've had that like one thing, you know? Really? Really? Really? I think I've had it's more kind of like consistent consistent consistent work. But it's the collection of just hit after hit. Yeah. Yeah. What was the highest grossing project then? And and then what was the one that you felt like you did your best work? I think the highest grossing was probably the first Suicide Squad. Um Squad. Um Squad. Um That was like close to a billion. Um It's pretty big.

But but it was like the critical reception of that was pretty muted. And then, to say the best. Um or the least. Uh And then then the second Suicide Squad, the James Gunn Suicide Squad, I mean that one would have smashed uh at the box office, but it opened right as the Delta wave hit during COVID. So, it was uh It was one of those things where it was like it like it like it had we known uh that it was going to come, they would have pulled the release and waited for, you know.

But uh so it was like really bad. It was like uh they went ahead with the whole like launching campaign because things were opening up, and then the Delta wave hit, and and right like the weekend before we opened, like uh everything shut down. So, it like had a It didn't have But I think it had like a cultural impact because people saw it. you feel like you did your best work? You've done so [clears throat] many different projects. different projects. different projects. Theater, TV, film.

I think definitely like uh Raskolnikov play was uh I think that's really up there, but it was I mean that's such a long time ago, so hopefully I've gotten better than that. Um I really enjoyed The Killing. Um For All Mankind. I feel like in the fifth season of For All Mankind, that's uh like playing 80 years old. Uh when I look at that, I feel like that's some of the best that might might be the best some of the best work I've done, for sure.

I really love playing this like full-throated full-throated full-throated sociopath uh in in the Detective Hole um on Netflix. Is there a a scene, or a line, or a phrase that you've you've you've read and played, whether it be on stage, TV, film, TV, film, TV, film, that you feel like has spoken to your life up until now. That's really resonated with you as a human being. Of the same cloth that dreams are woven of we are made and our short lives are embraced by sleep. What's that from?

From The Tempest. Okay. Shakespeare. I have that as a tattoo. Really? Okay, that was easy to remember. Yeah. To to me it's just like uh it it like wraps around like some existential truth of our existence in this universe and what happens happens happens when we die and that we carry on uh that we go back to uh I don't know. Uh yeah. Wow, that's beautiful. It's it's like it it's it's poetry so it's not like Yeah. It's not doesn't mean anything exactly, but I I feel like the words kind of give some sort of meaning to how I look at life and death.

I've been in just so enthralled by your storytelling of everything right now, but the thing that I'm curious about is you just told me, you know, off camera beforehand that you're going through your own transition and transformation right now and I know you've talked about in the past in other places. You talked a little bit about here. You grew up with women in your family, but you also had a challenging relationship, I guess, psychologically with your dad and you've talked about that and that the men You said the men in your family communicate through rage.

And you're actively been working on breaking that pattern and it's not easy for you to admit that, let alone in public. So, I guess I'm curious at this season, you know, you've been in LA for 16-ish, 17 years. You've had a lot of success externally. What is this season of of of unpacking more of your psychological and emotional emotional emotional life life life giving you and what are you learning to take on to the new season of your career and life? Mhm. I think I'm find trying to find the balance of not letting go of my my my youthful spirit, youthful spirit, youthful spirit, but but but but still but still but still becoming a little bit more of an adult and and and being like a good leader in my relationship and I think I've found it easier to be a leader at work than maybe in my relationship and in my private life and I think I've shied away from difficult conversations in my family and not, you know, taking taking that space that I know many many many around me have like waiting for me to sort of take and and I and I do it in a in a in a different way, you know, where I create things for my family and and provide and and and particularly in my relationship of uh of uh of uh for me like the my my the key word that is is like consistency that that's what I'm like aspiring consistency and like in my good habits and the habits that help me build patience.

I'm a little too susceptible to outside the outside affecting me and even changing me. So, which you know, makes me a little bit of an unreliable entity because I can be so affected by outside stimuli or inputs. You know, I'm so much of like going with the flow and hey, when in Rome. this out. Let's do this. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you know, I've had very much of like a a traveler's mindset where I, you know, love coming to a new place and like figuring out how people live here and then trying to kind of become one of them, you know, and live the way they do.

And uh and it's a little bit of like an actor's mentality, too, of like trying on different versions of myself. And so how does this feel? How does this fit? This is fun. This is a good experience. And we're been, you know, like in pursuit of collecting experiences. And um and not necessarily thinking so much about sort of being reliable and dependable and uh in relationship in relationship to, you know, to my partner. partner. partner. career you're like reliable, dependable, you show up. It's like you book a gig for 4 to 6 months, it's like you're you're 100% reliable.

Yeah. Yeah. Why do you feel like you've been more reliable for 20 years in your career uh than in relationships? Part of it's priority. Uh priority. Uh priority. Uh you know, I really prioritized Or Or Or earlier I didn't even think of it that way. It was like, you know, I gave everything to my career and then everything else was kind of, you know, fallen fallen fallen you know, it would it would it would be what it would be, you know? Right. Right. Right. But it's like uh but nothing touches my work, you know?

And and that's, you know, to me that's not a recipe for happiness. happiness. happiness. So you that you have to find a balance. And um And also I I definitely have a much better balance now. I you know, before I was much more destructive in my approach to work. I would, you know, if if a character was smoking meth, then I I would I want to know what that feels like, you know? know? know? to be the character. Yeah. And and I think a lot of it was it was also sort of stemming from insecurity.

Insecurity of like, will I be able to like perform in the way that I want to and will I be able to like be vulnerable in the way that I want to will I be able to you know show the darkness of that character if what if if I didn't like go into those territories and and get first hand experience of of all that stuff but now I you know it's like for me being in vulnerable and that that is not hard at all all all and and even like being vulnerable on camera is not hard for me it's I've created those pathways neurologically I can I can just start breathing in a certain way and then and then kind of do a little meditation around the circumstances that I'm in and then like those channels are sort of open now you know I've there is there is this it's a technique you know I mean based on experience yes you can drop into vulnerability in any moment yeah I mean I don't think about dropping into vulnerable but but I'm not afraid of it you know so and but but then like just technically for my profession it's like I know how to do that so so I don't need to to to like go on a three-day Bender to like feel fragile you know you can take a five-minute meditation and get there yeah yeah but in your personal life do you feel like you're open and receptive and vulnerable no I'm a disaster it's hahaha hahaha hahaha yes I mean it it it's not it's not hard for me to be vulnerable and but but but then I I kind of let myself down by not being consistent enough and and not being dependable enough and a little like you know I kind of just need to man up a little bit in in my in my life and and be a stronger constant I'm not a disagreeing with you but do you think you need to?

Like, why do you think you need to man up or be consistent or do these things in your personal life versus how you are in your professional life? Is it cuz you think you'll have more peace and joy and happiness, or do you feel like that's what you're supposed to do at this age, or I mean, part of it is to be more compatible with my partner. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um but [clears throat] but when I when I do that, I'm also happier. It It definitely like makes me happier.

And I I feel like it And I I feel like it I have more self-respect. When you're consistent and reliable and leading rather than for sure and just kind of go with however, yeah. Yes. And And it Yeah, definitely definitely definitely definitely much happier with myself. And And a lot of these things And And the the healthy habits that I need to create to do that, they are great for me. And they help you in work as well, I'm assuming. The more for sure consistent you are in your personal life, personal life, personal life, you'll probably deliver better results in your professional life there.

Yeah. It's like this Buddhist expression called shenpa. called shenpa. called shenpa. Have you heard of that? What's it mean? It the shenpa is like the the space that you create like before you get triggered or emotionally affected and and it's like to create these habits to to create more space, more shenpa. Uh like that that is so good for me. I don't know if this is everyman. I can definitely speak for me that I think I've I was always afraid of full commitment and going all in in intimate relationships intimate relationships intimate relationships because it was almost like I would have to let go of a world of all these other things that I could potentially do or these activities or adventures or the idea of freedom to go anywhere and do anything at any moment without having to rely on or communicate with anyone else.

Yeah. Or letting anyone down. It's just like I can be fully whatever I want to do. do. do. And I don't have to call anyone. Yeah. And I think for a long time I lived in fear of letting go of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And And And I'm not saying it was easy. It was extremely challenging and it took me until I was in my late 30s, you know, it's probably like to fully be able to say, "Okay, is this life I've been living going to give me what I want in the future?" Which is to be in a harmonious relationship which is to have a family eventually and all these things that my future self really wants.

I know that I can't keep living this way. But I think for like 15 years I was pulled with this "But this is so fun and interesting and freeing, right?" Yeah. That you really have to let go of an older identity and step into this leadership role for yourself. And what I'm hearing you say, correct me if I'm wrong, is like you still love that idea to be able to do those things. And you don't want to lose the boyish, childish in you, that energy while you step into full commitment, full ownership, full leadership in your personal life.

Yeah. Cuz kind of that child that childlike in me, I think it's what generates a lot of my life. Yeah. The childlike energy, the wonder, the adventure, the creativity, the spontaneity, it's what created everything I'm building. Yeah. And it what's attracts opportunities to me. Yeah. I'm just responsible like, you know, leader. It's You're not You're not attracting like the creative energy, the flow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's the dance between ownership, responsibility, and leadership while keeping the childlike wonder and like meshing the two is what I'm hearing.

Yeah. You You You put that really well. I I I I love the way you put that cuz cuz I think that's like it's so important to be able to to blend those worlds and not like just become like a boring dad, you know? exactly. Exactly. This rigid like like like Yeah. Okay, now we're Yeah. No. That's like scary. Yeah. And and it's and it's and it's And with more responsibilities, there is more weight and pressure and bills and it's like you have to do things differently in order to take care of those responsibilities.

You have to be a leader. You get to be a leader. And you don't want to lose that little childlike boy who's like, "Let's just go play and let's have fun and let's adventure." Yeah. adventure." Yeah. adventure." Yeah. Have no responsibility and just create. Yeah. And I think, you know, and for me that that's like a little bit of a metaphor for art and for even for acting. It's like you have to create the structure that is is is really strong and then within that structure, you have to be able to lose control a little bit.

And but but to lose control and not like spin out, you have to have that structure. Boundaries. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Those boundaries. And and it's like And I think in a relationship, it's like like like yeah, I'm sure you can find uh you know, you can structure your life where you have a partner that will let you do anything and they'll say that they're I'm fine with it, but you know that they're not. And and it's like if you're honest with yourself, then you're most likely hurting the person you're with.

And uh I you know, it's like it's like who who do you want to be, you know? know? know? Um and I want to be like playful and have like a childlike spirit, but but but with a framework where my kids, my future kids, will be really proud of me, you know? It's it's like and and where my wife feels that she can rely on me, my word is bond, and and if I say I'm going to do something, I will. Did you grow up in a household where your parents' word were bond and they created safety and structure.

I mean, yes and no. Um no. Um no. Um They're you know, they're still together, and they're you know, close. It wasn't a very passionate I didn't see that. I love my dad to bits. He's not the most romantic guy, you know. He's like I don't think he was good at like creating adventure. Either he's a little too like holding on. Rigid? Uh yeah, rigid and But I'm hearing you say the vision for your life is you want to be free, but also create structure for your future kids.

kids. kids. Yeah, the freedom is not hard to to create to create anything. free. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need to like It's like but it's like harnessing it. Like it's it's harnessing it and like growing up in certain areas, you know, like just I've let too many things get in the way, and I didn't say I was going to do this, or I I like but you have my word I was going to do this, but then this happened, and that happened, and you know, and it's like No.

No. No. It It It It you know, that that's where that's where I need to like really make a big shift. If you could you're about to turn 47, I think, right? Later this year? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you could go in the next 3 years into the end of your, you know, 40s. 40s. 40s. 40s, yeah. 40s, yeah. 40s, yeah. And you're Oh god, I'm so immature. No, I'm just saying you're an actor, you know, it's okay. But let's just say you know, in the next 3 years before you hit 50.

Yeah. I feel like I lived my 20s for for 20 years. Yeah, exactly. It's okay. But the thing that I think is really cool is you're starting to like open up about this. You know, I've known you for We're not like the closest of friends, but we've been in friendship for many years, and we've gotten closer, and I feel like I've heard more of this story, and you've heard me share my stuff, and all these things. And what I think is really cool is the awakening that you're having.

And I think a lot of people look at actors, and they just don't know what's really behind the scenes. And they think it's very glamorous and life is perfect or if you're getting all these shows like you're making all this money, but there's also challenges that you've had to face. And the things that have gotten you there you there you there may also be things that hurt you in other areas, you know, because you're so talented at like saying yes and doing these things, maybe it's hurt you in your relationship as well.

Which you've talked about. And I think it's think it's think it's really cool that you're starting to share more about this. And I'm curious if we're 3 years in the future if you could time travel and imagine, you know, the character you're going to be living in 3 years that in real life, what is it that you want him to say to you right now that will support you in having everything you want at the top of your career and the top of your personal life.

Yeah, like what the [ __ ] you so long and long and long and But not even like shaming you about the BS. Like he knows where you're at, but like you have all the answers. Like you know, you know all the answers. You You have all the answers. You It's just about implementation. So, hopefully he'll say good job. That's That's That's good good job like that that's that's exactly it. That's it. So, he'd be saying so, if he if you're 50 in the future talking to you now, that's what he would say to you now about the next few years.

few years. few years. he's going to say like good job. That's That's what we were doing. Got you. Got you to the right point. Got you. And what do you feel like it's going to take from you to hold yourself accountable to integrating these things that you've been learning? Cuz it's easy to slip back. Yeah. I've done it a ton of times. You've done it. You know, it's like okay, we make a new commitment, but then that old boy just wants to play. I want to go out to play.

play. play. There's another big opportunity. I said I committed to you here on this thing, but now this thing happened. I got to go do this. It's easy to slip back into old ways of being. Yeah, it's finding the right way to play, you know? For me it's really like having more of a consistency in my habits, regardless of where I'm at. at. at. And regardless of who's around me. Um and to to not get not be so like like do my thing, you know, like do yoga two to three times a week, meditate every day, you know, get up early and and like take my dog out before sun sunrise.

You know, it's like uh these things that I know that like also make me more compatible in my relationship and then, you know, when when you're two actors in a relationship too and you have these like periods that you're away from each other, you have to think these kind of the sort of things that I do become extra difficult because you know, it's really difficult to be my partner where, you know, I go off and do a movie and it's hard enough to be away from each other for like a month.

We try to keep it like to not more than 3 weeks, but sometimes, you know, it's a month. But then I've gone off and become a different person for this month and I've created all these new habits and all of a sudden I'm like smoking cigarettes and I'm drinking wine every day. You know, it's like so, you know, that is also not not something that's creating safety and stability and you know, when when it's it's enough that I'm going off and becoming a different character with every character I'm playing and cuz I like I don't think about it myself and I don't experience it that way, but but apparently I change quite a bit based on what character I'm playing at the moment.

Yeah. Is it hard for you to kind of like cleanse after the scene and like get back into who Joel is? like I started these little rituals where I where I where I sage and especially when I'm playing like a dark character or something, yeah. I do this little sage ritual where I just kind of like try to leave the guy there and then but of course it's like you're with those kind of thoughts for a whole day, so you know, it does affect you in some way.

But yeah, it's a you know, so it's enough with all that stuff, so I need to be much more consistent in like the way that I live my life and and have my sort of routines and my consistency in the things that are good for me, and then also like also like also like is more compatible with my my wife. I think since the first probably time I met you, met you, met you, I think, or at least pretty soon after that, that, that, so I guess we've known each other for almost eight, seven, eight years maybe, something like that.

Yeah. I've heard you say over and over again, dozens of times, that you really want to have a family. You really want to have kids. Like your dream is to have kids. That's what I've heard you say multiple times. I'm just curious, when you have kids, what is the thing you want your kids to be proud of you the most? That I'm like a uh a good, honest person that's kind to other people, that makes other people feel good, that I'm like a a um a um a um positive influence in my family and in society.

But I think that also those things that like someone that you can trust that's consistent. All the things you're trying to do right now. Exactly. I mean, get ready. Let's get married. Get ready. Just trying to be like you. Let's get married. There's so many things about like just the human psychology of an actor that I have no clue clue clue what you go through. I mean, I have some clue from like being with Martha and understanding a little bit, but I haven't really experienced that of how to take on a character and obsess over a character and not let that imprint on you in some way.

I'm assuming every character you've played you've had to have compassion or understanding or empathy or anger towards them, and then somehow not letting that affect you or imprint on you for the rest of your life. I don't know how you do that, and maybe you can't. Characters that you play for a long time, they kind of leave a little trace, you know, it puts a little dent in you in some way. So, it's it's an exercise in empathy. Mhm. Um cuz you you really have to find a way to understand and have love for that person, even though though though Even if you hate them.

I don't think that people are born evil. Mhm. And um And um And um and I think that and even if you know, it we're we're all to some degree shaped by society. Of course, there are like exceptions. But um But um But um you know, we have But even like even with psychopaths, you know, not not all psychopaths are like always bad people, you know? It's uh Maybe you don't find love for every character, but an understanding, you know? You find an understanding of like where it comes from.

And then And then sometimes the answer is like they're just not aware, you know? Like this guy that I was playing on on this Netflix show, Detective Holt, who's like I sort of of of you know, you don't it doesn't have to follow like the psychology ABCD, but but I I sort of was playing around with the framework of him being sort of a malignant narcissist, which is on the sort of psychopathy psychopathy psychopathy uh uh spectrum, it's like the the station right before a narcissistic sociopath.

Okay, yeah. What's that like a six or seven? So, they have like sociopathic traits and uh but they have ability to feel empathy, you know? Still yeah. Yeah. And um even though sometimes they can connect with completely without with that empathy. So, it's a little in between. I I thought that was like more interesting to play with. Um And this guy will it was someone that was really like uh like uh like uh you know, he was definitely damaged in in his uh in his upbringing and by his father and and also he doesn't know what's going on inside of him.

Yeah, he's just doing. He's just reacting. Yeah, it's like there's just like he's driven by his sexual confusion and and sex is more about power than anything else. And and he's driven by his like lust for more power and and games and it it's you know, so there's all these like impulses that are coming to him that he's acting upon and and he might have like a strategy of how to play this power game to make this person feel weaker and take his spot and and to keep climbing up, but it's not someone that is like aware of what's going on inside and and that my actions here are because I'm hurt in this way or so it's it's fascinating to kind of create the sort of framework of a character and then you're just like but in here he's like just going, you know, based on impulses and things that are happening and and it's not like it's not a rooted person.

person. person. Um but he's he's broken, so that's why there's there's a potential for so much chaos. I always hear about this thing called the hero's journey for acting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What does that mean? The hero's journey? For me it's more about like about 5 to 7 g of psilocybin. But there's like a hero's journey arc, right? When you take on a role, yeah, are you thinking about that hero's journey arc based on this Well, so it it's like it's a type of story. story.

story. Um and Um and Um and and it's a type of of, you know, it's like Luke Skywalker's classic like hero's journey. Um and and it has all these like different steps. Do you think about that when you take on a role of like, okay, what's the arc of throughout the whole season or the movie or are you thinking about thinking about thinking about how do I deliver this best scene Yeah. for this moment and worry about the rest of it later? Well, you know, like a hero's journey is interesting because it you know, and and it's it's a cool framework for a story because that character goes through so much change, you know?

And so you're always trying to I'm always trying to find a role that has an evolution and and changes a lot over the course of the story. Um that's interesting to to play and if you're the lead, you know? But um but then and then of course you want to kind of kind of kind of cover your tracks a little bit so you so the performance doesn't become formulaic. I see what you're saying. Got you. Yeah. You've got three different shows out right now. You've got multiple projects in that are coming out soon.

If anyone just Googles your name, Joel Kinnaman, they'll see where they can find all of your work, your TV, film, everything you've been working on. Uh you know, I originally I think I originally saw you in a small part you did with one of my a film that I really like, gosh, Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. You have You have to have good eye noise. noise. noise. to catch me without the eye noise. eye noise. You were a quick moment in there, but then I remember seeing you in House of Cards, which I thought you were incredible in.

And I think it was one season you're in that or half two seasons, yeah, fourth and fifth, yeah. Incredible in House of Cards. Cards. Cards. Altered Carbon is where, you know, the synchronicity really lined up with which I thought was a fascinating show. And a lot of people that meet Martha, who have seen Altered Carbon, they're like, "That was one of my favorite shows. I wish you and Joel did the next season." And then everyone's always like, "Ah, I wish you guys would have done the next one." But you've done so many cool projects.

And you know, I think what what I acknowledge about you, Joel, is just you being so open in your journey and being in the mess of it, being willing to like continue to transform. I just think it's really cool because I think there's a lot of successful actors or business leaders that I'm aware of or I've met who aren't willing to work on themselves because what got them there, they don't want to lose that. They don't want to lose the thing, "Well, now I'm successful and the thing the way I was being got me here.

Yeah. So, I don't want to change who I am. Yeah. Even if it's destructive in my intimate relationships or my business partnerships, even if I'm a jerk like this is what's got me here, so I'm going to hold on to it. And I think it's really cool that you are on this journey and you have been for many years since I've known you of awareness. Like you're very open about yeah, I know I've been this way and it's been and I've been this way and it's been challenging and challenging and challenging and I got to figure it out.

Yeah. And I I and I see this internal struggle you've been dealing with and I feel like it's really cool and inspiring that you're sharing it with others. others. others. Your friends and also publicly because it gives other people perspective on on they can continue to grow Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. to improve the quality of their relationships, their career, their business, their goals and hopefully get back to harmony. Yeah. And everything I talk about on the School of Greatness is how do you live your own best life and how do you have And really what that means is how do you have inner peace with who you are Yeah.

on your path. Yeah. And you've had a lot of success and a lot of fun, a lot of adventure adventure adventure but you haven't fully had that total peace and harmony inside of you from what I've heard. No. But I'm glad to hear that you're starting to create that because I believe you believe you believe you the Joel Kinnaman with more harmony, more more peace and more structure is going to create even bigger abundance in your career opportunities and however that looks for you, whether that's big hits or you know, more indie stuff you want to whatever you want to do, it doesn't matter.

Some babies would be nice. Babies? I think maybe that's your greatest, you know, adventure, right? And so I'm just I acknowledge you, man. It's really cool that you're on this journey and anything I can do to serve and support you, you know, let me know. to be like you, Louis. You know, one day at a time, man. We all got stuff we got to deal with, so. This is called the three truths. It's a hypothetical scenario. Imagine you get to live as long as you want to live and you get to accomplish everything and live the life you want to, but it's the last day on Earth.

Many years away. You get to live as long as you want. But for whatever reason in this hypothetical scenario, all of your work has to be taken with you. So, every project you've worked on, this conversation, conversation, conversation, uh any movie, TV show, any recorded content that you've been on is gone. Hypothetical. Hypothetical. Hypothetical. But you get to leave behind on the final day three truths, three lessons from your life that you would want to leave behind. What would those three truths be for you? Face your fears head-on.

Mhm. We are love. Mhm. Live in generosity. Mhm. So, look at you, my man. Appreciate you, brother. Thank you. If I had felt blissed out, peaceful, and just content with who I was at 24, would I have striven the way I did? Would I have struggled and clawed my way from, you know, unemployed actor in New York City to, you know, Emmy-nominated, you know, television show and and lots of money like