Joe Rogan Experience #835 - Louis Theroux

Key Takeaway

When you encounter beliefs you strongly oppose, resist the urge to mirror the hostility you see. Practice stating your disagreement clearly while asking sincere questions, recognizing the person’s humanity, and avoiding mockery. Louis Theroux argues that kindness can interrupt an us-versus-them worldview more effectively than contempt, while Joe Rogan emphasizes that rigid ideologies become dangerous when they prevent people from questioning, updating, or leaving.

Episode Overview

Joe Rogan and Louis Theroux examine Scientology’s appeal, its hierarchy, recruitment methods, treatment of critics, and the challenges of documenting a closed organization. They broaden the discussion to free speech, political tribalism, mental-health claims, brain injury, and the danger of any ideology that treats doubt or dissent as betrayal.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Joe Rogan Experience #835 - Louis Theroux from Joe Rogan Experience. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

shine. Yeah, we feel professional with headsets on and we're live. Welcome back, Louie. Oh, thank Yeah, thanks. Nice to be back. Uh, I was saying before the podcast started that you sent me down a Scientology rabbit hole last night, my friend. I've been down those before, but last night knowing that you were going to be on and looking forward to it eagerly, I uh I watched a lot of stuff. Uh, and you know, I spent three years down that rabbit hole and uh, it's a weird one.

It's a weird one. Were you on the internet? Were you just clicking around? Yeah. Just there's a lot on YouTube, but there's various uh, very very wellresourced websites. There's one called Clan Bake. I've been to that one. Yeah. And then there's all the Tony Ortega stuff. I mean, there's just there's just whole worlds. And actually, I mean, I know there's a lot to talk about, but perhaps the biggest obstacle to making a documentary about Scientology is the overabundance of material, you know, because there's just so many ways to come in on it and it's you can just chase intriguing leads and then months go by and you're no nearer to filming anything.

I had a lot of thoughts on this and one of the thoughts when I was really trying to uh unpack it all is that I feel like one of the reasons why a lot of these people defend Scientology I think there's several reasons. One because it's their team and once you become a part of a team it it becomes something that you identify with. It becomes very important to you and then you want to defend that. So I think there's that. Um, but also I think some people take some benefit in what Elron Hubard created because uh if you uh have you read Going Clear?

Yes. When I read Going Clear, I watched the documentary and then I read the book and one of the things that was more fascinating about the book was the the fact that he was essentially trying to diagnose and treat himself. And he was essentially a really nutty guy. He was very damaged. Yeah. He he had a lot going on and um he was a guy who was trying to sort of sort it out himself and in the process brought a lot of people in and then created this thing and some people they they get some benefit from this thing cuz like I was watching like some of these people that are upset with you like that woman there's a trailer where this woman was uh upset at you because you were in I haven't seen the documentary yet.

It comes out in America in January. Um, but you were on uh a road that you had a permit for and she was telling you you were on private land. And that's right. I'm looking at this woman. I'm like, this is seems like a reasonable, intelligent, assertive, confident woman that would probably, if she didn't get into Scientology, she would have been successful in the corporate world, right? I'm sure. But here she is. Her corporation is written by a nutty science fiction writer who wrote more fiction than any human that's ever walked the face of the planet.

He he made up more [ __ ] He wrote down more things that never happened than anyone who's ever lived. And they don't have a problem with that. They're like I I mean you've said about 10 different things that I could uh try break down and analyze. I mean I'm basically on the same page as you. I think there's the first thing to acknowledge about Scientology is that it's a religion and that all religions have a very high portion of um you know to I'm trying to put it politely but just bogus fellacious clearly nonsensical material right and Scientology is is is is the same as all of those.

I think there's a lot of people who've had who've derived a lot of benefit from Scientology. I think people probably there's people whose lives have been saved by it. Kirsty Alli will say at any opportunity that it was Scientology that got her off drugs, but I think a lot you have to sort of take the whole package. And uh with as far as Hubbed goes, he was an only child. He was a fantasist, a lonely guy who uh was also a narcissist. And I think as a writer, I mean, you can't one of the things intriguing things about Scientology is created by a sci-fi writer, right?

There's not most other religions are created by sort of desert mystics or warriors or people introspective people. But a modernday sci-fi writer who's who's writing things about aliens taking over foreign galaxies, that's really that accounts for a lot of its um it very bizarre inflection. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Well, not only that, I don't think he wrote a second draft ever. No, he didn't have time. He was just churn churning it out. I think a lot of the stuff that they say he wrote, he didn't write like cuz he was married three times and at least one of his wives took credit for writing some of his stuff.

I think even some stuff of Scientology may be written by his second wife who he then he subsequently disavowed said he was never married to. But um the guy was he he lied about so many things. He was also um abusive to his wife wives I think plural. So physically he he he was um abusive to them. He was very very troubled and suicidal. One of the most intriguing things in going clear is reading this list of uh I I think they called them affirmations which when he was in after the second world war he was racked with self-doubt.

He thought he was a failure. He was embarrassed about his sexual urg urges his compulsive masturbation and so on and so forth. And he wrote down a list of things. Do you remember this section of it where it says you you you do not feel compelled to masturbate 24 times a day? I mean it's not literally I was like you are you were not a disgrace to the military. You were you acquitted your service in the Navy very credibly. It was all these sort of lies he was telling himself to reassure himself that he was actually to feel okay about himself.

It's a very humanizing document because you just see all his neurotic uh inclinations laid bare that then subsequently informed his like lifelong attempt to as you say sort of therapeutically heal himself. And I think there's other people that identify with those self sort of damaged thoughts. The these these thoughts where they don't like their past. They don't like who they are. They don't like the pattern that they're on. And they seek to try to change that and and improve upon their position, improve upon their their understanding and their acceptance of themsel.

And I think that's where Scientology does benefit a lot of people. And so it is tricky. Like many things in this life, it's not that black and white. I mean, is it black and white that it's a cult and that there's a lot of damaging aspects of that? Yes, absolutely. It's pretty clear when you see the people that have tried to leave it and, you know, and and tell the truth about their experiences in it and what how they've been harassed and hounded and Yeah. That's all pretty black and white, but I think we can um in some ways we can sympathize with some of the people that are in it and good time.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, but the other thing to say is because you started by asking what was it that made some people defend Scientology and is it loyalty to their team? But I also think that um on the outer periphery like there are concentric rings of commitment to Scientology and in the inner inner circle it is extremely uh demanding and I would argue abusive and uh and and cultlike. on the outer circles as you get further from the center I think it can be relatively benign and especially if you're a VIP or a celebrity in which you're exposed only to the best sorts of treatment you're given kind of platinum card treatment you go to the celebrity center they roll out the red carpet for you and I think those people feel immensely indebted to Scientology I think that explains a lot about Tom Cruz um that he's only ever been treated like a prince when he's been in Scientology so he he he feels so grateful for everything that they've done for him.

Yeah. I think his experience when when he talks about them, if he's being honest, I mean, if if everyone had that experience, Scientology would be amazing, you know, when you see him when they had the happy birthday thing for him and he's dancing and everybody's cheering. Like, imagine if you would just people treated you like that all the time. Oh my goodness. Auditioning actors like female actors to see if they were going to be your girlfriend. Did you read that whole? I mean, imagine if they rounded up uh the most attractive young female actors in Hollywood uh to see whether they would go on a date with you.

That would make life very simple if you weren't married as I am. Would it though? Would it go? I don't know, man. I mean, it's just you're dealing with a bunch of nutty people willing to go through that process. Yeah. And actually, because it would be like almost King Midas thing where you wouldn't trust any of your instincts. You would feel as though people were erecting pmpkin villages everywhere you went. Do you know what I mean? Nothing would feel quite real, right? That's a good point.

Also, like imagine your wife today if you found out that your wife today was one of the people that had auditioned to be Tom Cruz's wife. I mean, if you don't make the cut, you're damaged goods for the rest of your life. That's interesting. You're you're a nutty broad who was willing to go and sign up to become Tom Cruz's new wife. Well, to be fair, they didn't know that was the job they were going in for, right? to be fair. Yeah, that's true. So, so they were just being they just thought they were up for some gig.

I mean, do you you know what I mean? Maybe a sitcom or something. Essentially, they were I mean, and then there's also all of the This is a difficult thing to ski skirt around, but the Scientology treatment of homosexuals where they sort of shield them from the press or hide their activity and and sort of Do you know what a beard is? I do. Yeah. they they they hire beards. Um you know that's I mean that's a great point and I think actually that's another one that you know I guess we've you know we as a society have evolved a lot over the last 50 years to some extent Hubard was a creature of his times in his attitudes towards homosexuality.

The trouble is because they're saying it's a religion that's been enshrined as scripture. And so there are there are there is Elron Hubbed scripture that dictates that homosexuals gays are perverts. They're 1.1 on the tone scale, which is the same as journalists, oddly enough, but it's very, very low. Basically, you are a kind of broken, deceitful, uh, devious character. Journalists are 1.1 of the tone. Same as perverts, but and actually, I think quite explicitly explicit. I mean, I could go down and that explains a lot about why it's so hard to make a documentary in practical terms, why they don't cooperate with documentaries.

They they just see you as a pervert. you know, he's someone who's dedicated to the to the abasement of humanity in essence, someone who's holding humanity back from being what it should be. That's just incredible that he's managed to define journalist under that category. The very people that we rely upon to investigate the truth and and and express that truth and disseminate that truth to the general public, those people are perverts and and um yeah, and that's scripture as well. You know what I mean? So, so it's not like you can argue against it in in their I mean one of the big things they're up against is any attempt most uh kind of malfunctioning regimes whether it's a corporate entity or something else you you know you say this isn't working let's try something else so much of what happened in Scientology this was explained to me by one of our sources in the in the film um a guy called Marty Wrathman who was very high up in Scientology he said something could be working extremely badly inside Scientology but if it came out of Hubbard then you couldn't really change it.

Hubbed apparently once said oh the best way to wash windows is using uh vinegar you like don't use Windex use vinegar and because of that whenever they washed windows in the Seaorg in the inner sanctums of Scientology they had to use vinegar because Hubbed said that was how you were supposed to do it and nothing can be changed. It's a bit like Mormons. I mean, now Mormons, I don't know how they got around. They say like you don't have to be polygamous, but it's like turning an aircraft carrier around.

If it comes from basically, if it's gospel, then how do you reform? You know, God's changed his mind is basically what you have to say. Well, that is the real problem with religion because we all recognize that no one person has ultimate truth. And especially when you're just going through this life trying to figure out yourself, trying to figure out what is this all about? this strange spinning ball that's floating in the sky and we're hurling through infinity and what is the purpose of this existence?

And there's a lot of open-ended questions that never have any answers. So when someone comes along and they have this rigid ideology where things are very clearly defined, you must ask who is defining these things? Who is this person that is beyond reproach? And when that person is a yellowtothed weirdo that's dressed like a captain with some metals that he put himself on his own jacket and he's a science fiction author who wrote more [ __ ] than any human being has ever and wrote bad books.

I mean he's a bad writer. I've only I haven't read any of his I've read I've tried to read Dionetics uh several times. It's it's almost unreadable in my view. Have you tried to read Dionetics? bought Dionetics once uh a late night before the internet uh there was a late night infomercial. I've always been a person who's really into self-help and psychology cuz uh I was I've always tried to figure out like what is it about, you know, why why do people sabotage themselves? Why do I get lazy?

Why do I not fulfill some of my goals? And so I really got into like Anthony Robbins and I got into a lot of uh psychology books and self-help books. And one night I was at home and I was watching this commercial for Dionetics. So I said, "All right, I'm going to call this." And I called and I guess I gave my credit card number or whatever it was. And were you This is while you you were an actor at this point. I was a working actor.

Quite successful. Yeah. I was doing okay. If they saw you coming, they would have absolutely that would have made their year. Well, I never went in. I never went, but I did in the future. I did do the E-meter thing, but that was way later. So this is like 1994 when I just first came to Hollywood. And you know, I was alone in my apartment in North Hollywood, pro probably lonely, trying to figure things out. Just got here. I want to buy this [ __ ] thing.

Those people sent me pamphlets and paperwork and invitations to seminars and this thing and that thing for a decade. I mean, it just never ended. It was like weekly, monthly, constant. This I mean, they're very, very relentless in their pursuit. And if you looked at what their pamphlets were saying, it was all really reasonable, enticing stuff. It was all about improving yourself. It was all about fulfilling your goals, eliminating negative thoughts, eliminating other people's negative thoughts that are influencing the way you view your life. Um eliminating the uh effect of past experiences that were negative and that may have defined you in some way.

Yeah. All of that. And then but that's basically Freud. Basically, it's Freud with a a lie detector uh kind of you're hooked up to a lie detector that in essence is auditing. The problem is when you read Dionetics, you realize it's how loopy it is in my view. And and in fact, cuz sometimes and I I I I praise this sort of skeptical-minded approach where people say, "Well, what's your problem with Scientology? You know, all religions are kooky." But the fact is is just exhibit A is just read Dionetics.

If you read the Bible, it's got looney stuff in it, but it's got passages of transcendent uh poetry and and just parables that are you can meditate on and beautifully written you, you know, in the translated English. Um you read Dionetics and it's it's just childish stuff about um literally things about oh a lot of your problems may be because when you were in utero as a fetus, your father tried to uh abort you. your father tried to abort the fetus. Uh, and you can still remember that and that's holding you back.

And at the at that time, a record was playing and every time you hear that record, it's sort of this sort of Pavlov mixed with really weird um totally unscientific ideas and and then it expands to past lives. So, it's traumas or bad memories from previous lifetimes. And at that point, I'm just like, I'm not on this ship. Well, I wasn't on it before, but you know, even more so. Yeah, it's it's hard to be honest. I think but that's what we were saying earlier about rigid ideologies.

Rigid ideologies are always problematic because there's so many open-ended questions to when it comes to being a human being on earth. And that is a problem with religions. And that what one of the things that religions do by creating these rigid ideologies is they make things so that you don't have to question stuff. And that gives some people comfort. if you know that these are the rules and you don't have to think about why homosexuality is bad or why you know you know fill in the blank whatever the whatever the issue is when someone defines something like that for you it makes it so you you have less questions and you have comfort in these truths you know air quotes um but that's not good for anybody it's bad for everyone involved because they're not there are some things that I think we've all learned learned.

Uh be nice to people and it feels better to them, feels better to you, you have a healthier existence. When you have harmony with your neighbors and when you can create a good community of people that are being harmonious together and friendly together, it's a really nice place to live. Those are pretty that's a pretty much a universal truth. You know, there's a bunch of those that exist, but even those can be debated and discussed and you know, you find, you know, various approaches to uh the end goal of of happiness.

Whenever you have someone who wrote down a bunch of wacky [ __ ] like this and then you have seemingly intelligent people defending it like that woman that we were discussing. I mean that woman was she did not seem stupid at all. No, I'm sure you I was reliably informed because in the same in the film we go off and meet her ex-husband who's now no longer in Scientology and he describes her as a very sensitive, caring person. A lot of the assertiveness she she shows I think she probably acquired through uh Scientology and and and and a lot of Scientology training in terms of what it imparts to people is a quality of uh being direct, being assertive, being confident, being in charge and being okay with sort of dominating the situations that you're in.

It's one of the reasons that I think it appeals a lot to actors because it it it's it it works I think for people who have any sort of insecurity or who are going into situations of uncertainty and it allows you to almost reprogram your circuits in some way and be okay about using assertive body language and and speech and it also imparts a sense that you have all the truths necessary to save humanity from itself. not just humanity on earth but through throughout uh time and space.

And it is your obligation to ensure that those truths are saved saved for posterity and communicated as widely as possible in a totally unadulterated fashion because any adulteration of the message means that not only do they not work, they become toxic and dangerous. It seems to me that there's a bunch of things going on and that there's some aspects of it that maybe could be beneficial that they could extract from that. It's almost like these people that have abandoned Scientology can start Scientology light. Well, they do.

They are doing that. Are they? Yeah. But one of the funny things is uh once you have Scientology light, it's called the indie movement, independent Scientology. And it's often made an analogy is made with um Martin Luther and and Protestantism you know when um you know people said you know there's nothing in the Bible about the papacy really there's nothing about um selling indulgences and having palaces in Rome so in the Vatican so actually really there's just stuff in the Bible about you know following Jesus and reading the Bible so shouldn't that be what we we're doing and so they go off you have Protestantism the trouble with the independent movement is Um, it turns out though if you remove the uh the rather predatory moneyraising side and the and the sort of fundamentalist controlling side, you get something a bit wishy-washy that's more or less indistinguishable from many other sort of self-help creeds.

It sort of loses its potency. It's almost that the the authoritarian dimension of of the of Scientology and the way in which it demands total obedience from its followers is intrinsic to its ability to have an effect. That's fascinating. Um people do in some in some way gravitate towards discipline and um that you see that in the military like the benefit of so yes sir no sir like that and one of the things I talk about in the film is I mean we talked as well about the appeal of Scientology why do people defend it so it works for some people I think there's an obvious thing of the thin end of the wedge you know you get in knee deep and then you think well I've come in this far so even though I've got doubts I'll go a little further and then you sort reach a tipping point of commitment where it becomes almost embarrassing to back out.

You're sort of $100,000 or more in. You're 10 years in. Your family is annoyed with you. A lot of them you don't see you you there's it's very hard to walk away from that commitment. Uh so there's there's all these powerful um re compelling reasons for why. But the the other part of it is, and this is the part that I, as an outsider, appreciate and I own up to in the film, is that there's something grandiose. It's a bit like Trump, right? You see these gilded casinos.

You see these towering shiny buildings. You know, they're kind of over the top and grotesque, but they're also sort of majestic and imperial. And if you ever watch Scientology footage, there's some of it's on YouTube and you see how they they are very good at a certain kind of um over-the-top aesthetic. Do you know what I mean? Almost a kind of reef Lenny Reefen styleesque um with lights and flaming brazers and thousands of people surging upward in unison and it it has an effect. You sort of think, "Wow, these guys know how to run a show." If you go into any org, have you been into an they call them orgs, right?

organization. Okay. So, near where I'm staying in Los Felis, there's one. It's on Hillhurst, I think. And you go in and it feels like you're kind of in a religious library sort of um sort of designed by Jay Peterman, you know, the like the catalog company. And it has sort of old globes and kind of distressed wooden furniture and and wicked chairs. And it feels like it's got like a slightly colonial golden age of exploration feel. Do you know what I mean? And it feels very we're sort of swept up in this narrative of we're in a place where there's adventure and and and and and a sense of order and and and actually there's a sort of um seductive quality to it.

Yeah, there's a seductive quality to a lot of religions. I find a seductive quality to people that are very confident in what they're saying and this this uh ultimate truth that they're espousing. And um you know I went to the Vatican recently and uh one of the things that was really apparent to me was the sheer scale and the the vast um the the size of like St. Peter's. What is it? It's not St. Peters. It's not cathedral. It's um uh it is called St. Peters, isn't it?

The Basilica. Yeah, the Basilica. Thank you. Um the Basilica, which was just to me the most amazing thing I think I've ever seen as far as like a human creation. the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my life other than Chichinita, other than the Mayan pyramids. I I was just stunned by the amount of work and the the the hundreds of years of work that had gone into creating that. But when you're there, the overall scale of it is so it's so immense that it makes you feel pure.

It makes you feel small. It makes you feel insignificant in the greater picture. And I think that that is a that's a big factor with a lot of religions is to eliminate the power of the individual by making you feel diminished by the sheer scale of what you're seeing and what what the the the hall that you're in. I'm sure I'm sure that's correct. It's intimidating. Very much so. Yeah. And there's one other thing which I would add in which is uh I you know last year on the back slightly on the back of doing the Scientology program I was trying to I was living in the UK and I was trying to get a program going about uh fundamentalist Islam or not even fundamentalist actually beyond where it's extreme radical Islam so-called you know uh basically people who support ISIS of which there are some in the UK although they're hard to interview because it's actually a crime to uh to glorify terrorism is what it's called.

And so they have to talk very gingerely around the subject. But if you get into a debate about someone who is sincerely uh committed to ISIS brand of of Sunni Islam, right, where they're saying actually yes, sex slaves are okay. Slave, they'll say like slaves isn't quite the right term, but we approve of that and blah blah blah. And then you're throwing they say, "Well, by what authority do you challenge what we believe?" Right? when you start coming at them with some kind of humanistic secular liberal sort of view of life and you try and explain well I'm not basing my I don't have an authority as such you know like I I'm not preaching a religion I'm just saying you know it's kind of better to be nice to people and they say but ba based on under what authority like you you find that you actually don't really have it's surprisingly difficult when you're thrown back on first principles to make the case for um a sort of sensitive uh secular way of doing things.

Does that make sense? Yes. You know, we one of the appeals of I think whether it's Scientology or Islam or or um Christian, extreme Christianity of you know, whatever that form that takes, they can say like we have all our answers. They're in a book and God told us. So, who told you? And well, no one told me. I'm relying on a two millennia old tradition, you know, founded in uh, you know, Greek or Roman times, you know, with various people over, you know, interpreters over the years.

But actually, I I I, you know, I can't really articulate that in 10 words. Do you know what I mean? Yes. And it's surprisingly hard. So, once you're in the prison of a faith-based system, it's very hard to kind of leverage your way out. I I didn't do a good job of trying to get them out, basically. Well, it's very difficult when they say that like by what authority and you realize you don't have any and they think they do. Yeah. And that's where it gets weird.

It's Yeah. You're like, I don't have a book. Like whatever we call the other way of doing things, you know, and also you don't want to say like, well, in western tra, you know, you're trying not to because whether we like it or not, all our beliefs have a um some sort of geographic and temporal specificity to them. As much as we we might want to say that there are golden rules that exist through time and space, I don't think there really are. These are all kind of constructed, right?

Like all of culture. Yeah. Like all truths, all culture. And so, uh, you're having to say, well, you know, over the last few hundred years since the Enlightenment, uh, we've found that in general, torture is not a brilliant idea and capital punishment's not great and slavery is largely discredited. And they and they said, well, so this is about the Western Enlightenment. That's your authority. And I don't want to be kind of basing it on that. So, I just I slightly made a hash of it. After after I did the interview, my producer said to me, I said, "Yeah, I think he kind of owned you in that interview." The guy who's like the ISIS defend, he's now doing he's doing he's in prison now.

That was why we didn't one of the reasons we didn't finish the documentary. Anyway, that's sort of going off on a tangent. What did he go to prison for? For allegedly glorifying terrorism. You know, did you hear that Twitter yesterday banned 235,000 Twitter handles? No. Really? For for promoting terrorism? Really? 235,000. That's incredible. How I mean, I'd be intrigued to know how they define promoting terrorism. Is that all would that all be Islamic or Yes. Uh well, I would assume because I am not. So, it must be that.

But I wonder if they because this Yeah, there was a conservative Breitbart blogger who was who was bad. Milo Milo. That was very sketchy. Uh, I don't agree with what he said, but if you if you really pay attention to what he said, it was very sketchy that they they banned him. I mean, if you believe in freedom of speech or you don't. Kind of. Yes. And what he what he all he did was he made a post uh on Breitbart about the Ghostbusters movie and it was very critical.

He basically called it a piece of [ __ ] It was a terrible movie. he said is this ridiculous feminist film and that uh creating this all female Ghostbusters cast where all the men are buffoons and Did he not flame the uh African-American actor? He flamed everyone. He called them fat and ugly and disgusting. Uh and you know what he's saying is essentially like look I'm I'm [ __ ] He's he's [ __ ] all the time. He's a a very flamboyantly gay guy. He's been in this podcast a couple times.

He's hilarious. I I find him funny. I find I follow him on Twitter. He I mean Yeah. you used to. Yeah. Well, there you go. Well, they banned him. But here's what's interesting. Um, he didn't do anything bad on Twitter. When you look at what he said on Twitter, it was like nothing, you know? It was like nothing more than think she had said uh Leslie Jones had said a bunch of things about uh him or what other people had said about her. And um she wrote something down that was just poor grammar.

And uh he and he wrote uh my word barely literate you know such a shame schools in America you know that's essentially what he wrote and then he was banned. I mean that is really mild stuff. I mean, if you I think what there's a problem, first of all, that he's conservative and uh they don't like that and that he does uh attack feminists and social justice warriors and progressives and the left and he goes after them and that's essentially the whole base of Twitter. Twitter has this uh what do they call it again?

What is their council? They have some strange it's very Orwellian. It's like safety and trust and safety council where things a watchdog group within Twitter that keeps tabs on it. Well, where who decides what is and is not harassment and sort of it's sort of like placating people who are recreationally outraged by other people's opinions. The trouble is it's a public space that is basically also a corporate entity, right? So in essence they can do whatever they want legally, right? Yeah. But it's very ideologically based.

It's very leftwing. It's it's very weird in a lot of ways, which I am in many ways leftwing. So, when I when I read what they're saying, I I agree in some ways, but outside of actual real harassment, um I just don't think that you should be able to just ban someone because they, you know, call someone a [ __ ] or call someone ugly. It just it doesn't seem Yeah, I I'm not going to disagree with you. I mean, I feel as though we're in a weird place.

We're off on a tangent slightly, but you know, it was around the time of um Charlie Ebdo, you know, which was everyone was marching for the right to be offensive, right? And around the same time, trolling became a buzzword. And it was the idea that we should stop trolling. And there's a certain disconnect we're living through as a culture to do with uh wanting to defend the right to be offensive, but also come down hard on trolling. And actually, at a certain point, you can't have it both ways.

Yeah. Well, there was also uh a lot of people that were defending what had happened in Charlie Ebdo by saying that those cartoons were really racist. They were going so far pro-Islamic to sort of uh I Well, I'm going to say I what I heard was and because I understood this was some people saying absolutely it's a crime. is hideous and people have the right to be um uh you know to be offensive, but I'm not going to valorize the message or even hold these people up as free speech martyrs any more than I would do if Tom Mezco or neo-Nazi was killed.

He does not thereby become a hero. who becomes a victim of a of a of a lynch mob of a murderous campaign, but I'm not there by a supporter of um his output. Does that make sense? Yeah. I'm sorry. Well, there's a mistake here. I'm uh I have to text that to Tom Papo, who thinks he's supposed to be here right now. Apparently, he's outside. He's supposed to be here next Monday. Whoops, Tom. Um yeah, I think so. So, so, so pen for example, the Brit uh I think it's it was pen the American magician no writers union it was it's a guild of writers that supports the rights of writers around the world in America and they said well we don't want to give an award so there was a divide in the among pen should should we give an award to Charlie Ebdo by giving them award uh are you there by saying saying we support you for saying that Muhammad was a piece of [ __ ] or whatever they were saying or are you you know in other words do you get an award for being killed Does that there's there's a little bit of a conflict there.

Yes. In other words, so I don't I I'm sympathetic to people who feel that absolutely it was a crime. It was hideous. You know, Islamopfascists killed Charlie Hebdo, but that does not thereby make Charlie Hebdo's message a laudable or creditable one. Yes, that's a really good point because what were they doing and what was the point of what they were doing? Were they just trying to be funny? Was it parody? I don't know if it was funny because I I I don't speak French and I haven't I haven't really paid any attention to the translations to me funny some of it didn't seem that but if Julius Striker right that you know the I'm not d I don't want to con compare them directly with this but you know an offensive propagandist for the Nazis just to take an example you know I shouldn't even go down this road because once you bring the Nazis in it just clouds everything yeah as soon as you say Hitler yeah it's a kind of thought blocking it blocks all thought he's worse than Hitler or this Trump.

Yes. Yeah. Um I I think um the real bottom line is people were killed for cartoons. There's no way to defend that, right? I think everyone agrees with that. We agree with that. But does that make the cartoons good? It certainly doesn't. No, they could be [ __ ] cartoons and people were killed for [ __ ] cartoons. It's wrong to kill people for [ __ ] cartoons, but uh the cartoons are still [ __ ] Even Elron Hubbed would agree with that. Yeah. Hopefully. I don't know.

Well, that let's bring it back to Scientology because that's one of the interesting things about Scientology is that anyone who is a quote unquote opponent of Scientology, they are allowed to violate pretty much all of their principles and just go after you. You are the enemy. Yes. And and you you there's a whole different set of rules for engaging with someone who's a an SP. An SP suppressive person. I like how they do that. SP that's what they do in the military, too, by the way.

IEDs, you know, they they abbreviate things. acronyms and and a lot of stuff that in Scientology is based on Hubard's naval experience. He loved they dress up in in naval uniforms and they he loved things like um little you know bulletins or anything that felt kind of quasy military and you know what I mean? Yeah. They love in a way it's a mixture of um some military kind of naval stuff and then some corporate style stuff. What it isn't is a lot of religious stuff. Like that is the one thing that you don't get a flavor of in terms of the way they dress and drill.

There's some show business, you know, you got a little touch of Hollywood, you got a touch of naval. You don't have any sense of it being um kind of spiritual or religious. Yeah. in I'm talking in the way they style themselves, the language they use, they're constantly using abbreviations that are more or less unintelligible to the outsider, which by the way is a lot of how allegedly, according to, you know, experts on thought reform or cults so-called, they say, but by learning a new language, it's part of what kind of gets you caught up in the thought patterns of of an abusive system.

Well, that's also military people. If you if you talk to people who really have a deep understanding of the military or people who love the military, they love to talk in those acronyms, they love to use them because it sort of lets everybody know that you're on the inside. Yes. It's like when people talk about cars or anything where it's um there's a there's a surface knowledge that most people have. Oh, that is a Ferrari. Oh, that is a Corvette. But then is there's deep deep knowledge.

you start going into, you know, the different types of uh gearing in the axles and, you know, oh, it's got 411 rear end and a this and that and you're like, oh, he knows. He's the deep knowledge. He has the deep knowledge of the car. Well, there's the the deep knowledge of the military and a lot of that is is sort of expressed through acronyms. Yes. Yes. FUBA and they do all that stuff. Uh so that's a big part of how they operate and I think as well the I mean this is something I I mentioned before it is important to bear in mind as well that as much as um Scientology kind of casts the world in us and them terms which is very characteristic of a lot of systems of thought that that are enimical to sort of sort of freedom or free way of thinking.

It's us and them. It's like Bush saying you're you're either with us or against us. And in Scientology, in a famous statement of Tom Cruzes that he gave in 2004 when he was given a Freedom Medal of Valor at a big Scientology awards ceremony in in in England, he said, "You're either in the you're either playing on the pitch or you're out of the arena, right?" You know, he's the one where they gave him that gold dinner, huge like a flavor flave style gone. And and he so his thing is like you're either on the pitch, get out of the arena because there's no half measures, you know, get in or or you're out.

And that whole idea like if you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem is a very dangerous slippery road to go down because you're then by definition saying there's good guys and bad guys and if you're not on my team you're a bad guy. Well, let's define what the solution is, Tom. You know, sit down. Tell us about what what are thetatons. Explain to me how they fat, they throw them into a volcano. What happens? Well, you know, I'm going to sound weird now because like one of my promises that I made to myself was that I would never gratuitously um mock the beliefs of Scientology.

And one of the things they find offensive is is is to reveal some of the secret truths that are unveiled. um you know okay I'll take a step back unique to Scientology is that it's a mystery religion meaning that many of its beliefs are unveiled as you advance up the ladder of enlightenment okay so you don't at day one get told unlike with Jesus and Christianity on day one you're told he died on a cross for your sins believeth in him and you will be saved and go to heaven there's no kind of catch or later sort of amendment that gets made when you're a year two years three years down the line in Scientology you learn more as you go up.

Some say that this is partly something that it owes to Crowley or Alistister Crowley, I think it's pronounced, you know, and that um Hubard had practiced a form of Satanism when he was living in Pasadena in the 40s right after the Second World War and incorporated that aspect of it. And it is quite a seductive idea, the idea, oh, I'm going to learn more as I go on, a kind of unraveling mystery. Um, so, so that is part of Scientology. And and when you get to O the OT levels which is once you've gone clear which is sort of half OT is operating yeah so so to begin with like going clear is was originally the best thing you could do and then subsequently there was he added more levels and more layers and you get to the OT and there's eight published OT levels and OT3 various secrets are revealed and um allegedly uh if if an uninitiated OT or an uninitiated person is shown the secrets, it makes them go crazy.

But one of the things that but I you know you're not sp in the fil and every documentary about Scientology rejoices in telling you what what the OT stuff is and I think you were about to touch on it. I promised myself that I wouldn't um reveal them because I sort of felt, you know, it's a little cheap when all these documentaries um say, you know, this is what you $100,000 in or 200 or 500,000 you're going to learn what happens at OT3 and then we, you know, they spoil the surprise for everyone.

Um and I also felt like I'd like to be able to say to if I ever meet a Scientology, I mean, I'm sure I've met some but without knowing it, but you know, if I ever meet Tom Cruz or Beck, I want to be able to say like, you know what, I didn't ever do anything. I just I have a right to know my truth and express my truth. I don't want to mock you. I don't want to make fun. You have a right to believe what you want to believe.

And if you think, you know, no more than I'd force a Jewish guy to eat pork or or tell a Rastapharinet to cut his hair. And so I'm not going to say to an OT, uh, you know what, I know what happens OT3 and it sounds like a bunch of junk. Well, you don't even have to say it's a bunch of junk. But just expressing I think there's what we know. Okay. what we know about their doctrine. Yes. Or their whatever you want to call it, their their scripture.

And there's an amazing moment in the documentary, the HBO documentary, where was it was Paul Higs? Is that what Haggus? Hagus. Thank you. He gets to OT3. Yeah. You're going to say it fine. He gets to OT3 and he starts reading some of the handwritten stuff by Elron Hubard. There's a whole palava. It's an interesting bit in the book, too. Do you remember? like he's guided into a room and literally it's almost like they take it out of a safety deposit box and kind of open it up with gloves kind of white gloved hands and then there's a handwritten kind of piece of parchment inside written in Hubard's manuscript and you read it in that room and then and then the guy has a has a kind of little routine he follows like the person who brought you in comes in and says has it been read and comprehended or something like that right and then you've read it and you go like uh yes and then ask and It shall be done or something and then they put it back in and take it away.

Yeah. Well, it must be it's a great sense of theater. Like I love it's like being in the Masons or I mean all that secret squirrel stuff is very appealing. Secret squirrel. It's Yeah, that's I forgot about Secret Squirrel. Yeah, that that but I think it's important to talk about what we know about what that is about what is that's fine. I mean it's out there on the internet. I you what I would say is what they believe is that man is an im an immortal spirit and you have not you you are not your body you are the spirit and the spirit is aatan that's the term they use for spirit and your spirit you in essence have lived multiple lifetimes in multiple bodies going back millennia and going forward millennia and that's not a unique thought no I mean unique to them no you have that in Buddhism but unlike in Buddhism uh the transmigration of souls does not um resides It's only in humans, right?

You I don't think you can become a a chipmunk, right? Which you can in Buddhism, I think. Can you not? You tell me. I do not know. And I think, you know, depending on how your karma is, that's number one. And number two, which is even more important or just as important, is that you can carry your memories through the lifetimes using Scientology. And the gift that Scientology gives you is the ability to retain your memories and your identity across multiple lifetimes. And that's why it's so important to a Scientologist to um to recollect his or her past lifetimes because it suggests that you you're sort of you're on you're now on your cosmic destiny and you will carry it forward into your when you when you next incarnate.

These are all unique ideas. I mean, they're they're they're interesting, but when you know the source of all of it and yet they ignore it and they they they choose to not pay attention to the other things that he read or wrote rather like u Battlefield Earth, that movie with John Travolta. Did you ever see that? I never saw that one. It's wonderful. It's wonderful. It's right up there with um Did you ever see uh Show Girls? Yes, I have seen Show Girls. Showgirls is like a tour divorce of writing a movie while you're high on cocaine.

It's Joe Esars wrote that and it's Paul Verhovven directed it. It's a great combination. It's it's in one of the best unintentional comedies that's ever been made. I'd argue that cuz Verhovven's a brilliant director, right? And I think and Starship Troopers he made and um the first Robocop, he knew I think he knew what he was doing. I think he has a keen eye for camp and thought this is hilarious. Don't you Esther's maybe not. It could have been. Um I I think they were just coked out of their mind and they made a wacky [ __ ] movie and they probably thought it was great.

Like [ __ ] print it. Let's go. Let's go out. Let's Let's hit the ivy. And I don't know. I mean, I think they were just out of their mind. I mean, if you watch that film, there's a scene where Al what is her name? Elizabeth Berkeley and uh the other guy from um I can't remember who. Blue Lagoon was he from Was he from? What was that TV show that he was on? The the handsome one. Kyle, what the [ __ ] his name? McConnell.

MClin, is it? Yeah. Yeah. Kyle Mccclaclin. They're having sex in a pool and she starts flopping around like a fish. Like, she literally starts having spasms. Like, if you continue to have sex with her, I feel like that's rape. Like, this is a woman who's having a goddamn seizure and you're going to keep having sex with her. Have you ever seen the scene? No. Well, I've seen the movie, so yes, I must have. It's wonderful. She she starts they're having sex and she starts flailing like as if she's having a goddamn stroke.

She's in the middle of a heart attack or a seizure. And uh I that choice is the only thing that haunts me about that movie. Like maybe it is maybe it was camp. Maybe they were doing that on purpose. I think it was but you know I I read an interview with the director of um of Battlefield Earth. Is it Battlefield Earth? and he he apparently is a pretty good director and had he's a European I think maybe French and I think he just didn't know what he was walking into you know and I think he didn't even he didn't really check out what he was what the gig was well that was a a product of John Travolta I think Travolta was backing it maybe and it's wonderfully bad yeah there's a funny bit in in going clear in the book where they I think Cruz sees it and and it's like this is so embarrassing for Scientology.

He's really upset about it. Well, he was upset that they showed that video of him uh you know, saluting, you know, to LRH. You know, they salute when they got the medal, all that crazy stuff. Yeah, that's it's all over YouTube. Um the recruitment. Was he upset about that being leaked? Yeah. Oh, they tried to get that taken down and of course it spread like wildfire through the internet because you just you just can't you can't take things like that down. No, it's classic. Although a lot of stuff's been there are a lot of great Scientology videos that have been taken down.

Really? Yes. Like there's a famous one um that's very hard to find. It's the orientation video um that was shown to new parishioners. Uh this is back in the 80s and it was done by an infomercial pitch man who was then a Scientologist and then um subsequently left. You know, by the way, do you know one of the They don't cast Scientologists in Scientology uh commercials. Do you know why? Why? because they blow too often like they leave and then they no longer want to be in the video or it becomes embarrassing to have someone speak.

Can you imagine if Leo Remany was in a commercial for Scientology, they'd never be able to use it again. Right. Right. So they can't they they it's sort of insurance because they want to be able to use the they spend a lot of money on the commercial and they don't want to be embarrassed when the Scientologist who's the star of the commercial leaves Scientology and says that they were brainwashed. That's their actual reason for that. That's what I'm told. Yeah. How many of them left? Uh well I mean let's say the retention rate I don't know they they're very they keep the data very close to their chest.

So uh you I know that they have um they say millions I think they say 40 million some vast amount worldwide. I know that in on Tony Ortega's blog he's I think there's a US census data that that they that perhaps suggest in the US it might be 20 or 30,000. We should probably get that fact checked. But I I believe I read that there are more people who identify as Jedi as their religion than there are. I'm a Jedi. I want I just decided is a long process to become a Jedi or can you just claim it?

You think this is long process but it's it's very cheap is the good thing. Oh well, I've watched all the movies. I think I'm in. Um I just it's amazing to me that this exists. Uh and I understand that it exists. I intellectually when I sit back and I look at the the the the many many different religions and many many different ideologies that people subscribe to and the the the vast amount of people out there that are searching for truth and and answer and and something to belong to.

Even that e even though all those things make sense to me intellectually, I'm still fascinated. I I'm still so puzzled that in 2016 with the internet with all the access to information that we have today that that still exists. It's uh and and you look forward and you wonder it will, you know, is this going to fizzle out? But I think what they've done is they've kind of created a a marketing juggernaut that is if not immune to but at least highly resistant to um any attempt to discredit or undermine.

So, I I heard I read a thing that said, "Well, it's a religion that sells secrets, right? That's its USP. It you advance up. You you you pay more money to get the, you know, the more secret levels." And the internet is kryptonite to that because the internet is a is a is a machine for revealing secrets. You know, Wikileaks and whatnot. You can Google anything. So, so that will be Scientology's Waterloo will be the fact that we now have searchable data. Um but it shows no signs of coming apart.

You know that the numbers may not be high but the amounts of revenue coming in and are are huge from what I can tell and I get the feeling that um well you just have to see how you know the amount that they're able to spend on advertising the number of new buildings that go up. Uh so however small it may be it has a huge um punching power. Where are they getting the money from? Um well it's an interesting point. I the first thing is that it's it it's structured almost like a McDonald's.

So, and in fact, interestingly, in 1950, the year that Dionetics was published, was also the first year that uh McDonald's was established. Let's point it out by I don't know if you ever read Janet Wrightman's book, Inside Scientology. It came out a year before Larry Wright's book um going clear. But, so it was slightly it's it's thunder was stolen by going clear, but it's also an excellent book and a great primer. If you enjoyed going clear, I highly recommend inside Scientology. And she points this out that in 1950, McDonald's was invented and so was Dionetics.

Um so they basically kind of it's a franchise system in which they are sort of selling the they own the property of the of the various buildings in which Scientology is is sold and then they license the materials but they can't really you know some of the franchises can lose money but Scientology itself can't really lose money because they're just getting rents from the people who are who are selling the Scientology. Does that make sense the services? Well, it doesn't make sense that they get that much revenue from that.

Well, you know, they're gigantic real estate holders. They so they have huge amounts of real estate. The other part of it is that they because it's a religion, the money is uh, you know, taxdeductible or whatever like they don't pay taxes on it in essence. And so I think I think that means that it's very hard for them to lose money. It's a hu you know it's a huge cushion against financial failure. Well, that was a really disturbing part of uh the documentary which showed how they became a taxexempt religion.

the the the government essentially caved under the threat of massive amounts of lawsuits. Yes. Yeah. They were um basically the Scientologists found a way to pressure individual IRS employees to the point where their lives had become extremely hard. So they they settled. What year was that? Uh I want to say um I want to get this right. 92 I would say 92 maybe 93. It's amazing that that's upheld. I know. But then again, uh there's a I mean what the benchmark for being for having charitable status is not that high.

Look at the Clinton Foundation, right? I mean there there are the people scrutinizing how what qualifies as a charitable enterprise do not seem to be um especially, you know, on top of their game. And um so yeah, I think once that's in place, I think the other part of it is so you pay one of their roots for finances, you pay for services, you turn up, you spend I want auditing, so I'll get an auditing pass package for $300 and you get, you know, whatever five sessions.

But the other thing is they solicit donations and five or six times a year they have large events and u that's the footage of Tom Cruz is is at one of these events and they they're like these huge Hollywood style awards ceremonies where they pack hundreds of scientologies into an auditorium and they both look quite impressive. So to the outsider they look um kind of grandiose and impressive but they are in essence a kind of live infomercial event where everyone who's there is then aggressively um reged which means they they're aggressively um hit up for donations.

Does that make sense? So anytime you see one of those events all those people who are at the event before they can leave someone comes up to them and says how committed to Scientology are you? we would sincerely appreciate an expression of your of your support and they guilt tripped into making a donation a taxdeductible donation and um I'm sorry I know I'm rambling but there's a lot of information so so so they get huge amounts of money for that and that money then um one of the good things about that is that can never be revoked like if you leave so one of the problems they had in the past was if you if you spend uh $10,000 on credit and say I love Scientology this is going to be amazing and then you like $1,000 in, you know, into your services, you're like, "This isn't doing anything.

I want to leave." And then you ask for your money back and it's very hard for you to get your money back. Whereas the donations that are made to something called the IAS, um, Association of Scientologists, you can't get those back once you leave. Anyway, I'll make it very simple for you. There's very rich Scientologists who make large donations. Basically, there's a guy called Bob Dugen who's a multi-billionaire who who's donated literally tens of millions. Poor bastard. I mean, and there's a lot of actors who I mean, well, Leah Remy is one of the um she's one of the most famous uh detractors, right?

Person who's uh left. Right. Right. Until she was like one of his most famous supporters. Yeah. Yeah. But that's that's weird cuz like her turnaround was like that. I um I know well I I have a lot of respect for I mean I think there's a lot of guy like this guy who was I was talking about this pitch the infomercial pitch man who did the orientation video that was taken down from YouTube. He's called Larry Anderson, right? And he I would I really wanted to interview him for our film because I just thought the the orientation video is so funny.

It's one of this um it's this video where they say uh he goes welcome to Scientology. You know you if you if at the end of this video you decide this is not for you that's fine. you're welcome to leave just as you're free to jump off throw yourself off a bridge or blow your brains out. And so it's this very over-the-top kind of um thing. It's just ludicrous. But he left Scientology so they couldn't show it anymore. Um but he left and mo like most high-profile defectors, he just didn't want anything more to do with it.

He's just like, I'm done. And and very often they cut a deal where they say fine we Scientology will say like we'll let you do the X Y and Z whether it's get some money back speak to your people your friends and family who are still in Scientology but we don't want you speaking out and so then the the defector will be like okay fine I want a simple life but Leah Remany to her credit has actually you know gone out there and absolutely made it a mission to to call them out.

How far did she get? I don't know where I think she was quite far. Most of the actors um I think actors they're considered people of influence and so they get a certain amount of services for free. That's the impression I have. And so I think and I think they're encouraged to go up the bridge quite quickly. I had a neighbor who's a Scientologist and uh he wanted to buy a piece of property and we had a discussion about this how I found out he was a Scientologist.

He said out of nowhere, you know, we we start talking about this. He's like, "Yeah, I'm thinking about buying it, but uh right now my wife is about to go clear." And uh I go, "What's this is a long time ago." I go, "What what does that mean?" And and then he starts expressing what it means and that she's no longer going to be influenced by negative thoughts and this is going to cost $50,000. And I It's probably more now probably. This is the '9s, but $50,000 for a ceremony where you're no longer going to be influenced by negative thoughts.

And then you find out actually footnote there's this other thing you have to deal with, you know, and and then there's another like 15 levels. So yeah, I it's a funny uh it's a funny one. Did you talk to Leah Remy? Uh we approached her, you know, we I should explain that we took a specific approach. We knew going into it. I had been just dating this idea for years and as I'd been fascinated with Scientology going back to the late 80s um when I was a student and then I remember in 90 or ' 91 I took a tour around um the Alon Harvard Life exhibit there on Hollywood Boulevard and and had this weird feeling of if you've ever gone in where you just think wow it's like they took a person who was kind of an average sci-fi writer and attempted to make him sound like he was the second coming of Jesus.

And so everything is spun and it's it's just a weird feeling, you know, seeing a whole museum dedicated to someone who seems to have been a relatively unremarkable person. Do you know what I mean? And so they're working extremely hard saying like he was one of the youngest ever Eagle Scouts to ever qualify in the state of Montana. And you're like, well, and I was like, my dad was an Eagle Scout. Like that's not that big a deal, is it? And um and so then I remember halfway through I thought, well, this is this was funny for 10 minutes and then an hour later when you're on this guided tour, I've had enough.

And so I I said, I really need to leave. Well, where do you need to go? Like what's so important that it's more important than you've seen the rest of the And I suddenly felt under pressure that uncomfortable feeling of like, oh wow. And I had to pretend that I needed to be somewhere just to get out of the building. Anyway, so years go by and I think I'd love to make a program about it. And then I could never quite find I approached them and they said um long story short, we're not really interested.

We you know we they took me on a tour of the celebrity center. They strung me along for a bit, but it was pretty clear quite quickly that they weren't going to let me in. So uh a few more years went by and I was approached by a Hollywood uh producer called Simon Chin who who who made Man on Wire and Searching for Sugar Man. So he's you know he's well credentialed and he's like you know you should do something about Scientology. I gave him the spiel about why I hadn't because they won't let me in.

And as you know, my way of making documentaries is by invitation. You know, I make an approach and people say yes and they let me in. Oh, you're very polite in your approach. Yes. And actually, you know, I've done whatever, you know, you know, big game hunting or the Westboro Baptist Church or Gurus in the, you know, in India. But it's always I say like, can we come and film? And they say yes and we do it. So, I I just couldn't get my head around how you make a film where the people don't want you to make the film as I knew they didn't and have it be still true to what I do in some way and I didn't want it to be a kind of just poking them for the sake of it type of thing.

Anyway, we decided that um there was a way of doing it using reenactments in which we took a sort of meta approach to the reenactments where the whole process of casting and reenacting how you do Scientology using actors was filmed. In other words, we filmed casting a character to play Tom Cruz, casting an actor to play David Mscavage and roleplaying the different lines and used um ex Scientologists to kind of co-direct. So they were like, "This is how Yeah. This is how you do it and this is what Scientology is and this was what it was like when I was in Scientology." And really I part of it was knowing that once we did that in and around Hollywood that because Hollywood is so central to Scientology, they would get wind of what we were doing and would start coming to us.

So there'd be this wraparound of them and sure they they turned up and start filming us. Uh, and then it turns out they were making a documentary about me making my film about Scientology. So then it's becomes this sort of hole. When is that getting released? January. It's it's it's out in the UK in October, but January. No, I mean yours. The one on you. Oh, their one. Um, you know, I think it'll come out. It's a great question. I I'm surprised it's not out yet.

I think it'll come out probably in January. I don't know, man. And what do you think it'll be about? I think it'll be a lot like what they have done to other journalists. They did one to Gibney. They did one on um Larry Wright. They do them on ex Scientologists if they're of sufficient kind of profile. It'll be a 10 to 15 minute thing. They they they they'll extract uh any photograph where I look like a dick or, you know, I look ugly or ludicrous. any ill-advised bit of publicity I ever did where I was promoting a series and I like looked goofy, they'll say like this is a serious journalist and then they'll take quotes from interviews out of context to make me sound like a either a goofball or or kind of malicious uh deceiver and um you know if you want to really see the DNA of Scientology I often think because occasionally I get caught in this mindset of like you know what is so what is what it's just another religion there's It's no better or worse than other religions really.

And then some, you know, you know, sometimes you can slightly lose, you go native slightly or you're on their websites and you think like some of this makes sense. But if you look at how they attack their enemies, they're they're so unlike um other religions, certainly unlike Christianity for the most part. So official Scientology's pronouncements when they attack um ex-members and journalists are so sort of tabloid and childish and so malicious and nasty, you really see into something um deep about their their mindset because their view as you mentioned is that if you're a suppressive person, i.e.

someone who's attempting to hold Scientology back, then you are fair game. Anything um they could do almost anything to try and put you out of business. Do you think that these documentaries, whether it's going clear or the book by Lawrence Wright or the other woman, what was the name of her book? Janet Wrightman. What was her her book again? Inside Scientology. Do you think that all this data, this accumulative data, it reaches any of the members that are inside Scientology? They don't they don't ever examine it.

No. No. No way. It's it's it's considered n theta, which is a Scientology term. It means interpolated theta. I love this is like catnip to me explaining this stuff. Yeah, kind of. I just just It's like I said, I was steeped in it for 3 years kind of absorbing all this. Was it your whole life or did you No, it wasn't. It was just like was it Well, not constantly, but but you know, you would spend a few days kind of hours would go by and at the end of it, you emerge, you're like, have I learned anything?

All I know now is these absurd terms that are no use to anyone like n theta and but interpolated theta energy is you know theta is thetans are spirits. Theta is spiritual positive spiritual energy but interbulated is bad. So it's basically n theta is kind of bad for your energy I think. So it's n theta for you to be in Scientology and be exposed to anything negative um anything critical of Scientology. So they're encouraged to be off the internet and to be off you know not don't consume anything you think might be critical.

They're encouraged to be off the internet. Wow. Wow. Oh, well I should say that applies to people within the Seorc in the inner circle of Scientology. And I really want to explain that please. It's a really important distinction because I I don't I'm absolutely certain that there's plenty of extremely nice, welladjusted um Scientologists, people who consider themselves Scientologist. My ex- neighbor, he was a really nice guy. I bet he was. And and I'm sure um everything I hear about Beck, the musician, is that he's a nice guy.

And you know, I'm sure Giovanni Rabisi is is a nice guy. That guy's in. Yeah. Really? You didn't know that? That guy's in. Yeah. Who? And Jenna Elfman. I mean, there's a She makes sense. Really? Uh Juliet Lewis. Yeah, I bet she's nice. I bet she's very nice. She She and I have gone back and forth. We've talked to each other through uh messages on Twitter. I wanted to get her in. Talk to her. And Danny Masterson. I don't know who that is. He's um from, isn't he?

That 70th show. He's in, too. Yeah. And Jason Lee, I think I think he might be out. He might not. You know who I mean. My name is Yeah, that guy's in. Yeah, man. You You didn't spend very long down the rabbit hole. Well, my rabbit hole was not li I try to avoid any rabbit hole that involves celebrities. Um, but Scientology is predicated on one thing Elon Hubard got right was the idea that if you get celebrities in Yes. then you are you've got a a kind of golden ticket to reaching the masses.

Yeah. Um I jokingly thought about joining when I first came here. I was like maybe that's the move. Just get it. Become a Scientologist. You could make a documentary about Scientology that would be totally different because um actually maybe we've blown it by even talking about it. But if you'd gone undercover decided I was I don't think they would listen. They they would probably [ __ ] hate me. Well, it depends what you've got out there. It's too late. I'm not a documentary maker either. I don't have that sort of attention span that you have.

You could you could go you could have gone undercover and they you would have been such a great scalp for them. They would have absolutely because when was the last time you heard of an established celebrity actor joining joining like um I mean can you imagine if maybe they can I mean that's why Will when Will Smith there was a sniff that he might be going that way and and it went uh and it didn't pan out but um that was like unbelievable and they were trying there was a rumor that David Beckham might be flirting with it but I mean none of these things were were borne out.

Well, what they could do for you if you were a David Beckham or maybe even for me is they could act as like a gang that sort of like uh cover covers your back. Absolutely. I think they'd be And when I was doing the film, I went in not exactly undercover, but I went in not for a sequence in the film. I just to sort of keep myself grounded to keep it all real, you know, because one of the challenges with when you're not exposed, you're not actually having dayto-day contact with the subject that you're covering.

It's very easy to slip into a us and them mentality of your own and like oo scary scientologist. Ooh, they're bad. And actually, um, you know, they're not. They're good people, many of them. And and so I wanted to make them real. And I went along to, um, Scientology or just sort of chatted to some people and said, you know, I'm a make documentaries. I'm think I'm interested in this subject, you know, what's it all about? And they really did a one of the things they do is a fairly hard sell.

Um but uh you got the impression that they would 100% kind of take your money. No, I think they would accept you. Yeah, they would take your money and but they would absolutely I think be right on it. I don't know. You know, I kind of lost confidence in I was going to say 100% kind of be have your back and be your gang, but I don't know if I really did have that sense. I think if you if they know if they knew you were a celebrity, if they thought you were, they would really go to that you would get special treatment.

I was in San Diego and I was filming this television show. We had a few hours downtime and they had one of these booths set up uh where you would uh go over there and hold on to the those cans, the E-meter, and I I did all that. How long did you How many sessions did you do or just one? Just one while I was there. I bet it was pretty good, was it? Uh it was boring, was it? The guy that the guy who I got was very unenthusiastic.

He's just it seemed like something they require. They You're supposed to be unenthusiastic. Oh yeah. Well, on the e-meters there's a script for how it's called being an auditor. When when someone's auditing you in a sense being the therapist, they have a script. They have to it's called they have to sit there comfortably. But um they are not supposed to show any emotion when when they're auditing you. H was doing it publicly too. holding on to this thing and asking me questions. Was he reading the needle and saying did he say like is there a prior there's a whole script they sort of say and did you have to say like I had a back pain and then they're like would you remember what road you went down with your with what you were saying?

Hardly. I just remember thinking that this guy normal therapy. It's nothing that special. Yeah. The guy seemed like he they were forcing him to do it. He didn't seem like this is something he was interested in. He was just like really not interested in what he was doing and he he seemed like a volunteer like some that's interesting. I mean if on the c when they're auditing they're supposed to be somewhat blank. Uh a big thing in Scientology is is um sort of being comfortable in yourself and not like learning how to stare at someone.

There's a drill that we do in the film where you have to sit and stare at someone without saying anything literally for like minutes if not hours. And it's like it's actually a powerful tool because it's like it's all about I'm I'm I'm unmbarrassable, you know? I'm gonna I'm gonna not I'm going to own any sort of sense of awkwardness by just like I'm impermeable to any kind of social influence you think you can put on me. Right. Uhhuh. It's one of the paradoxes of being kind of controlling religious movement because so much of it is about controlling yourself.

Do you know what I mean? And not allowing other people's thoughts or negative actions to control you. Control you. And actually a big thing as well and one of the things Tom Cruz talks about when he's um in his video is uh PTS uh SP uh confronting shattering suppression uh um I don't think I even said that got my acronym right but anyway he his thing is sh he's like you when you one of he says like one of the best things he learned in Scientology was how to confront and shatter suppression right so anytime you see him in an interview and there's a few of them on YouTube where he's being He thinks he's getting a cheeky question.

You can see he kind of gets a steely look where it's a sort of it's not exactly adversarial. It's just like, "No, you're out of line, buddy." And and we're not the Matt Lauer interview. Yeah. Which was devastating for his career and short term. He recovered from it. But there was that was a window into madness. Yes. And into what he's really all about when you know that's the scary part. I mean, as much as I say like there's a big chunk of it that feels kind of valid and normal, maybe even therapeutic, but when you tip into thinking that you're the only one that you have, like you're the authority on mental illness, and that's dangerous and and individual issues with people that you have not diagnosed.

You don't have any medical training whatsoever. You don't know what their specific neurochemistry is. You don't know the effect of the medication and whether it's enhancing or hurting them. And you just have this blanket view of psychiatry. That was an issue that Elron Hbert had. And if you go down Sunset, yeah, I think it's Sunset on Sunset. Yeah. Psychiatry kills. It's psychiatry, the industry of death. Yeah. That's a fun afternoon. And that's one of their centers, right? If you go in there, they'll they call it the CCHR, Citizens Commission on Human Rights.

But, you know, and here's my issue with that. I think prescription drugs are overprescribed. I I think there's a real argument that there's a lot of people that are on anti-depressants that shouldn't be on anti-depressants. I think there's a lot of natural alternatives. One of them being exercise, one of them being in enhancing your standing in life in terms of like what you do for a living or where you live or you know the people that you hang out with. All those things can affect the way you feel and that can be interpreted as depression.

There's a lot of I mean there's a reason if your life is [ __ ] if all the aspects of your life is [ __ ] you feel bad. The solution is not a pill, right? So I think in some ways they've got something to say that makes some sort of sense. Well, but and in a weird way though, that's the dangerous part because it intersect it's where Scientology intersects with a totally valid um social critique, right? The trouble is is if you are if you have someone who's heavily psychotic and it's not in it's not a medication induced psychosis, you know, psychosis is a real medical phenomenon and uh Scientology is not going to take them on.

If you go to Scientology and say, "I'm interested in Scientology. I've had a couple of psychotic breaks um but I really think you could help me out." They're not going to say, "Oh, come with us. We'll they'll they'll run a mile from you." So, they're critiquing people who they have no intention of helping themselves. Oh wow. Yeah. And if you say, "Oh, and by the way, I've used some med in the past. I was medicated for my psychosis." They'll say, "Well, that disqualifies you from treatment." When I went to my one, they said, "Have you what forms of intervention have you had in the past?

Have you done any sort of psychiatry? Have you had any problems like that?" And I said, "Well, no, but I've had, you know, a little bit of therapy over the years." I said, "What what have you done?" I said, "I did a few sessions of CBT, cognitive behavior therapy. is kind of bog standard talking about, you know, problems, things you could do differently. The woman was like, "Oh, okay. Uh, just give me five minutes, okay?" And she left the room to check whether that disqualified me and came back, "Oh, yeah, that's not a problem.

Okay, let's carry on." But if you had gone on some sort of medication, I'd said I was on zyprexa for 10 years because I had a an episode when I thought I was a poached egg for a few weeks. Um that she would have said she would have said, "Oh, well, you know, good luck with that and um you know, don't let the door hit you on the way out." Oh, wow. So, they're not interested in treating people that have had treatment. No. Oh, that's weird.

No, they they they'll say good, you know, tough break on this life. Good luck in your next life. They really would. We should check that. But I'm pretty sure that's the case. Oh man, that's fascinating. And there's an interest if you want to read, we don't go into this in the documentary, but if you you can read up on um on the internet about cases where there's been people who had mental illness either within Scientology. I mean, perhaps the most famous scandal within Scientology or the most notorious to Scientology watchers was the case of Lisa McFersonen.

Do you know about her? She's the one that died. Yeah, she's her she's done in detail in um inside Scientology in the Janet Wrightman book. She was a paid up Scientologist, took it very very seriously. a young woman, maybe 30, and um she had a psychotic episode in Florida and instead of being taken for, you know, and given bed care in a facility, she was taken by Scientologists from a hospital and um more or less sequestered in a hotel uh for a week or maybe longer and and died in the hands of the Scientologist.

And what was her cause of death? I believe it was dehydration. We should double check on that. Wow, that's a rough way to go. Yeah. And she'd been having, you know, a total psychotic break. She was, I think, attacking people in the who were attempting to, you know, take care or holding her hostage, depending on how you define it. And um you know there was a whole script that Hubbed had for dealing with um people were in psychosis but I don't think it was you know medically supported.

It was basically involved ignoring them and keeping them secluded kind of locking them in a room. Now I saw an interview with you where you were talking about someone who used to be a former Scientologist a woman uh she well well she wasn't a former Scientologist she had gone undercover to sort of investigate them. Oh yeah. And uh you were talking about uh the auditing having a positive benefit. Yes, I think it probably does. I mean I think any kind of but on on you. Yeah.

I mean the auditing I did I only did one session and that was with you know the main guy in the film is a guy called Marty Wthburn and he was in it there's a sense in which the film is as much about him as it is about Scientology. He was he was a Mr. Fixit within Scientology. He was the number two to David Msgavage. David Msgavage is the guy who took over in 1986 or thereabouts from Elron Hubard and has been running it ever since.

He's an unaccountable leader who uh is in essence the pope of Scientology. And there are many allegations uh of him being physically abusive towards his followers. Marty Wrathman was his right-hand man for many years. Marty Wthban left in 2004 or thereabouts. and he was so he's sort of our deep throat in the film but he also cops to the fact that when he was in Scientology he was involved in all kinds of devious covert activity involving uh private investigators um destruction of documents and um also certain amount of physical violence himself which he you know has apologized for and so he uh it becomes a sort of examination of him and his ability to the fact that he's been seduced by this thing and is still in certain ways it's still in him you know by by almost by definition you can't be in something that long and that you know Leah remey was a celebrity parishioner right she was yeah she was going around the celebrity center she was doing Scientology but she was not in the seaorg the seaorg is this clergy it's the inner sanct it's the difference between someone who goes to a Catholic church a few times a year right and eats communion and and thinks and prays a few times a That's kind you can be a Scientologist in that way, right?

Which maybe your neighbor was. But if you're in the Seaorg, it's somewhere between being in the Vatican and being a monk. You take a vow of poverty. You volunteer. You take a vow of poverty. Yeah. You get paid like below minimum wage, tiny amounts. You leading a kind of Spartan existence to save the planet. You sign a contract for 40 billion years or something. I think it is literally because it's supposed to cover all your future lifetimes, right? So when you come back, you're still in the Seaorg.

In fact, their um their um their their slogan is something like vain bimas or whatever the Latin is. It's we come back, meaning like we come back in future lifetimes and we're still going to be in the seaorg. Anyway, so it's really important to get that distinction because you know I wouldn't want people to have the impression that everyone in Scientology is sort of going around in a uniform marching around on a power, you know, in a vow of poverty. That's just the sea, guys. And most of them live down not many of them live down in Hemtt outside LA.

And and that's where he It's outside. It's if you head towards Palm Springs basically. It's in the desert. That's where they live. Yeah. There's a base down there. Although they have some giant center down there that they're going to start producing movies, right? Well, that there's a center in Hollywood that they've just bought. Yeah. That they've just in fact not just bought, they just refurbed it and they've opened it and they're going to open it to movie. Which is bizarre because they have it. Yeah. $50 million TV studio movie and TV studio complex in Hollywood that just opened.

But they have a complex in Hemet as well bizarrely. So I don't know why they need another one. They like buying [ __ ] They're apparently at one point in time they were the number two real estate holders in Los Angeles. Well that Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. Not maybe Hollywood. Not maybe. Maybe. I don't know. But but but the um but I think a lot of that is to do with someone explained this to me. One of the rules about a nonprofit or about being a religion having their religious status is they cannot hoard their income.

Like money that comes in has to be spent otherwise they're in violation of their charitable status. So they this is this someone just told me this the other day. So in other words, it's in they have to kind of keep buying buildings because there needs to be a cash outflow which sort of makes sense, right? Yeah, that's totally understandable. Yeah, that makes sense. Uh and and then Yeah. So, so but but so this guy Marty Wrathben who's sort of my um my guide through Scientology and he's a fascinating guy and Marty was in for how long?

I want to say 24 years. Maybe it was 27 years but I think he said 27 years. He had a nice outfit on in a nice uh he uniform he got the uniform golden ropes around the shoulder. You know what I'll say this about him. You know if you're in it and you're up at the top echelons as he was you are on some kind of crazy sci-fi adventure. You know, if you think about it, you think it's real. You are. You are living. Look at that.

You are living a kind of Jedi reality. You know, look at that rope. It goes across the chest. You're saving planets. What is this metals for? Look at all these metals. No, that that I think that might be Some of them are photoshopped. Oh, really? Yeah. Like they add Well, that might not be. Some of them add metals just to make fun of um That might be a real one. I don't know. Well, the one that was above it seems real right now. Look at that one.

That's real. Now, so he doesn't look like that now cuz he's that's 30 years ago. How amazing is it that they give them military medals? I mean, it looks like no different than what a general would have. Yeah. I mean, it's beautiful thing in a way. I mean, yeah. I mean, it's it's an exciting life. They they probably wouldn't be doing the dishes in that outfit like that. Special occasions. Special occasions. And I'm sure he would get special treatment. I'm sure being the number two guy must been amazingly.

No, because you basically there's only really a number one which is David Muscavage and then there's just everyone else. Do you know what I mean? Oh, well, there's Tom Cruz and then there's But Tom Cruz is kind of number one, right? He's right up there. No, because actually there's Don't you remember in in in um Lawrence Wright's book, there's a bit where Tom Cruz explains, I think maybe to Nazan Boniardi, like his girlfriend at the time, he says, "Don't you like he's annoyed with his girlfriend." And this is after it split up from um uh what's Jenel Cruz.

No, the one before uh the Australian broad. Yeah. Um you know who I mean? Nicole Kidman. Nicole Kidman who's who by the way she was considered an SP cuz her father was a psychiatrist I believe. Anyway, so so so she was he went out with a woman called Nazine Boniardi for a while and there's a section in going clear where they talk about I think Msgavage came around for dinner or something and it was and um I think it was anyway his girlfriend at the time was having trouble understanding what Msgavage was saying because he speaks quite fast and um so she was like what are you saying and Tom Cruz was really upset and and said to him don't you get There's LR, then there's David MS.

COB is what they call. Then there's C O. And then there's me. You You're doing a do goddamn good Tom Cruz impression. Do that again. Don't you get it? There's LR. Then there's C O and then there's me. Don't you get it? You're glib. You're glib, man. You're you're glib. Um that's a very good impression. You just got to be You know what? What if this helped? Like I don't think I need Scientology if I I've got Nitro. Yeah. 270 milligrams of caffeine. It's giving me like some an OT edge.

I'm on OT5 right now. Do you know what morning thunder is? I think I had that mix. You mix this caveman coffee with uh some uh emulsified MCT oil in an iced coffee. That's what I have every morning. What is emulsified MCT oil? It's MCT oil that you can mix very easily with cold beverages or What is MCT oil then? Mediumchain triglyceride oil. It's the most uh nutritious aspects of coconut oil that are u blended together. It's they spin in a centrifuge, extract the Did we just commercial?

No, sort of. You can get it anywhere. MCT oil is readily available at any any sort of health food store and a lot of uh arrowan and Whole Foods and those type of places carry it. I've never even heard of it. You know, of coconut oil, right? Yeah. It's they're they're healthy fats. They're really good for your brain. Good stuff. Yeah. So, that's Morning Thunder. The point being um we go on so many tangents. But but your original what is co c is chairman of the board [ __ ] there we go cob rtc there's co and then there's me and then there's glib um then you're glib then there's mattlower and then there's john travolta just below matlau maybe they have quite a dim view of John travolta within scan what why this is such this is all the butt [ __ ] what is it um I think massage I don't know Marty raspen top that's allegedly can I throw an allegedly in Yeah, allegedly they have a bad view of him.

I'm just part everything. No, a lot of what I'm saying is based on you know once he blew once he left um Marty Rothben spilled his guts on the internet in you know in the name you know in in order to let people know what was going on and he kind of he was the biggest thing I would say in sort of in terms of exposing Scientology for what it is probably in in more probably in the history of Scientology. John Travolta's wife was on Fear Factor and I got to meet John Travolta because his wife is in the finals.

She lost to Kulio who was uh by the way you want to talk about a guy who performs very well under the influence of marijuana. Kulio might be at the top of my list right there right up there with Joey Diaz. Kulio uh would they would open up his trailer and it was like a Chichin Chong movie. It was hilarious. And he would go out there and he would perform these stunts just high as a kite. I mean, just gone because you look in his eyes, they were just glazed over.

And he would perform flawlessly. And the last stunt involved balance. It was this balance thing. And I had a conversation with him before we did it. And I was uh unfortunately stone cold sober at the time, I believe. And uh Kulio was uh he's like, "Uh, I've I've done this a million times in a million different lives and other universes, and I'm ready to do it right now." I'm like, "Get after it, sir. Good luck to you." But um John Travolta's wife, what is her name again?

Kelly. She's very very nice. Very nice. And uh very seems so normal. You know, I had conversations with her and uh and she even sent me a gift. There was some sort of protein powder that she was drinking. Um some some health drink that she was drinking. I asked her about it and she said, you know, give me your address. I'll have some sent to you. And this and that. So she sent some to the studio. I believe she was very nice. I'm sure Greta Van Sustran is a scientologist.

Get the [ __ ] out of here. That's the one that surprises me. Isn't she a journalist? I would thought I would have thought News. Yeah. Is she on the I don't know. Is she on the tone scale or not? I don't really get How can she be? Maybe there's an exception. Well, uh I met her as one once as well. She seemed very nice as well. There was something about George Carlin. I'm sure she is nice and I'm sure you can be. I mean, not to sound like a broken record.

Well, again, my neighbor who my former neighbor many years ago was a very nice guy and uh I've met a lot of Scientologists inside of Hollywood and they all um have this actor thing going on which is uh I I would like to believe that they are as nice as they're pretending to be but I'm not sure. You know that actor thing like Yes. And I know uh I know one of my early experiences when I was talking to a Scientologist when I was trying to first negotiate access to the church back in 2003 was I'd sent her some um old documentaries that I'd done.

So this is who I am. This is what I do. And she was on the phone and she said um oh yeah I got the DVDs and I was watching and she started laughing in the act of talking about like a fake laugh. Yeah. And I was like that didn't feel quite real. And then later on another person I knew who was a Scientologist did the same thing. We're like I saw the thing you did on television. Oh that is a that's a pet peeve of mine.

I was like oh wow. Maybe that is a giant maybe that's part of what they do is sort of some kind of weird love bombing. I don't know. Maybe that was just coincidence. Well it makes sense because they're trying to be influential and they're trying to they're they're trying to be charming. Yeah. Right. I I find a lot of the Scientologists that I've met that are actors, they're they're extremely charming. Like this one of the things you hear about Tom Cruz. He looks you in the eye.

He talks to you. He remembers your name. Shake. Yeah. You know, I'm sure that's true. I mean, they drill, as I said, they drill on looking people in the eye. But let's just assume that that's his real behavior pattern now. It's a very good behavior pattern. It's very nice. I'm in favor of positivity. Although, I think the world needs negative people. What? I think there need to be some. What don't you? But wait a minute. It's part of the ecology of life is to have the yin and the yang.

Yeah. If everyone was positive then I mean it would be a little too much. Well, it would be very strange if the world did become enlightened. Like what if uh some pharmaceutical company devis some pill that eliminates all the negative aspects of humanity? So much we all just started taking it. Yeah. I mean look how many people brush their teeth? Pretty much everybody, right? What if everybody started doing whatever this is and this new thing which eliminate it became prevalent throughout the world eliminate like vaccinations right pretty much I would I would estimate high 90% of the western world is vaccinated every now and then I meet some kid who had hippie parents and they you know gave him apple cider vinegar and they never vaccinated them there's those those a few of those exist but for the most part most people are vaccinated to prevent against diseases if we came up with some sort of vaccination to prevent the more disgusting aspects of human beings, negative behavior, aggression, meanness.

It'd be very curious, very curious as to how that would play out, whether or not that would uh diminish um uh ambition and progress and who knows. Yes, I think it was Yeah, it's like you said, the yin and the yang. I think Scientology aspires to be that you know and I think the danger of it is um it be it would bear certain similarities to a sort of almost fascist vision. I think I mean I think that there is an overlap there you know the cult of health uh the cult of glowing smiling beacons of of health and humanity marching up and down and actually it's our ability to rub along with difficult characters and and um to sort of embrace the ugly side is uh I don't can't define exactly what it is but it feels like that's an important dimension of life.

Well, it certainly seems to be that there's a there's a dynamic that plays out between human beings and that we learn uh not just from the positives, but also from the negatives. And I I learn a lot from other people's negative behavior how to never be like that myself without having to make those same mistakes. Also learn from my own mistakes, of sure. But when we see horrible things in the news and negative things, I think that does sort of reinforce how fortunate you are that you're not experiencing those horrible things and that there is some sort of an understanding of the the worst aspects of people where it it broadens your your spectrum of possibility.

I agree. But I also think that many of my favorite writers you would probably define in some sense as walking the negative side of life. You know, you think about Hunter Thompson, Hunter Thompson, William Burrows or um you know, Philip Roth if you like, you know, you know, talking about the absolutely the most kind of contemptable and disgusting impulses we feel. Bucowski. Oh, yeah. Um uh you know, that's absolutely Rambo, you know, the French poet. Uh you're this is sort of like this is who we are.

This is the stuff of life. I think it's ineradicable. And I think I'm suspicious of anything that that uh that pathizes it too much and says you know what that's sort of um you know that you know which Scientology does in fact they say that's your reactive mind. It's a malfunctioning part of your mind. It's a pseudocientific thing whereas actually Christianity I'm not a Christian but it sort of embraces the fact that it's just your human side. you know, your human side is is earthly and twisted and sexual and and actually you need to embrace some sort of higher higher being.

Well, I think most religions or ideologies that that are trying to promote some sort of advancement, they look to the past and to the horrific nature of uh animal behavior, the the the tooth fanging claw of the wild and the recognition that somehow or another we've emerged from that and that we aspire to do better. And then then we know that in our own lives, I mean, if you look at your own life as a microcosm, you you you've sort of figured out what you've done wrong hopefully and have advanced past those days of youth and and foolish behavior and you're now a wiser, more educated person, and you seek to continue to advance and continue to be better.

So, it's sort of like it's all analogous. It all sort of ties in together. Now, when when people go too hard with that, when when people to go too hard with uh eliminating the bad behavior, I always wonder if like Elron Hubard himself, if he was, you know, when he when we talk about him self- diagnosing and self-treating, if that's what they're doing as well. It's like like do you know that like there's an an old expression that uh well there's an old thing that you see with uh women um that are uh what's the best way to put this?

Sexually loose that they always like to point the finger at other girls that are sexually loose. It's like one of the first indications that a girl might be a [ __ ] is that she likes to point at other girls. And that and that's it's a real common thing. Mhm. And I think that the things that annoy you the most about yourself, you tend to highlight those aspects and you when you discuss human beings or other people that irritate you. I'm sure there's something in that.

Um they say uh yes, my dad likes to quote there's a um there's a a Bulgarian philosopher and writer called Elias Keti who's had an apherism that the thieves hell is the fear of thieves. So that we sort of project our qualities to others and it fills us with anxiety that they may be that to go to the the other point though you know it would be wonderful to feel that we advance through life acquiring wisdom. I don't know that it's necessarily the case. And what strikes me about Hubard is the you know the the merit that you see in Scientology, the bits that feel workable and make sense seem to have come out fairly early on and then later on the stuff he was coming out with was more and more outlandish.

Whatever therapies he was evolving when it went to the OT levels, it was really getting properly out there. like um I mean whether that maybe he was spiraling out. I mean there's allegations that he was fully mentally ill uh at least for episodes towards the end of his life and um well he spent a great deal of time the seaorg was kind of concocted because he had to be in the ocean. He had to be first of all um away from America so he went he took to to the sea so that he didn't get prosecuted basically as I understand it.

Yes. and and so he had a sort of oceangoing religion where they were kind of traveling around and then for a while he was in England and then for a while he was in what was then Rhdesia what is now Zimbabwe sort of trying to find a niche like find a kind of new frontier that he could more or less make for you know his own kind of claim for Scientology but then even when he came back he was so caught up in lawsuits in the last 10 or 15 years of his life people pursuing him uh for money because they they felt that Scientology had made them psychotic or they just thought it was fraudulent or that they wanted their money back.

He had to disappear and was living in seclusion um more or less hiding out while money was kind of shuttled back and forth to him. And that's why I say I said at the beginning like the problem with Scientology is an overabundance of material. You probably saw The Master, right? The Paul Thomas Anderson film. I fell asleep. I was watching in a hotel room and I passed out. It had it had its moments, but there's so many weird stories within Scientology. The master is loosely based on Scientology.

I would say it's fairly closely based on aspects of Elron Hubard. Yeah. I mean, was that is that public? I mean, have they acknowledged that? Uh, I think he had a screening for Tom Cruz and I think he publicly said it wasn't based on Elron Hover. What did Tom say? I think Tom said uh I don't know what your clip. Do you hear what do you hear about Tom? Like everyone seems to say he's a good guy. Like you meet him, he's um like as you say, very focused, very attentive.

Um I've heard several things. One that he's not as short as everybody says. Mhm. A lot of people want to say he's like 5'2. Apparently he's 5' n. That's what I've heard. But who knows? He could be wearing some funky stuff in his shoes. Um that he's very friendly. that he's uh very uh very focused, very intense, very very charming, very charismatic, very smart, and um seems to be genuinely interested in what you have to say. Yeah. I mean, I've heard the same thing. If you and what what's your line on if would you if Tom Cruz is interviewed on a chat show, you feel he should be asked about Scientology?

Like, have you No, ask him about whatever. I think chat shows, as you put them, are they're pretty much [ __ ] anyway because what they really are is you have a seven minute chunk where you're supposed to be promoting some movie about a super spy that [ __ ] repels down from the ceiling and gets past lasers. Yeah, that's I mean that's really or the other I think he's a great actor. I love that movie. What is it? The Edge of Tomorrow. Is that what it's called?

I love that movie. That was that was the the time travel one. I love time. It was sort of like Groundhog Day meets Mission Impossible. Yeah. Meets Alien. It's a great movie. I really enjoyed it. I think he's a great actor and I think you have to be [ __ ] crazy to be a great actor. I really he was good in that. And you know what was nice in that was that he started out uh like in that movie as a kind of non-TM Cruz character.

you remember he's kind of cowardly and and slightly weak and he learns in the course of the movie to become Tom Cruz where and it felt refreshing after seeing so many kind of Cruz as Uber mench films which by the way I think is part of uh Scientology as well is that he doesn't want to take on roles that are n theta yes in other words sea one of the things I learned was members of the seaorg who have taken this vow of poverty live extremely abstious cloistered lives And they're not allowed to go to the movies for the most part except when a Tom Cruz movie comes out.

So, you know, it better have a positive uplifting message. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. So, they would literally be bust to the cinemas to watch the matinea performances of Are they held back while the previews are playing? It's a good question. I would imagine they would have to be or they give What do you think would be the worst thing they could see in probably a preview from my film? Yeah, that would not be good. they would go how ironic their eyes would drop out of their heads.

But um and I think that's one of the perhaps issues they have with John Travolta as well is that he's playing heroin addicts and pulp fiction. That makes sense. I mean he really embraces some very bizarre roles. Yeah, he was in drag in um Hairspray. They probably didn't love that. Yeah, he loved it though. He's very good. Don't you love a great time? I do. I love him. I think he's a great actor. He's so good. And don't you feel like we've been on such a journey with him from Vinnie Barbarino to Yeah, he's like um he's he's a he's a legend.

He's a fascinating character and uh I met him as well when his wife was on the show and he was very nice. But it was that thing, you know, where he's like really engaging, looks you in the eyes, very present, you know. You think he's gay? Is that is that where we go? Um people say that he's gay. Uh I don't know. I have zero problem with people being gay. But I do have a little bit of a problem with someone who's not gay who pretends that they're or someone who is gay rather.

Well, that would be a real problem. Someone who's not gay and pretends they're gay. That's that's odd. But that's something like if you're if you do gay stuff, you're just gay. Like even if you're not gay and you pretend and you like you start dating guys, like I'm not even gay, but I'm going to trick these dudes. I got news for you, pal. happen. Yeah, it could happen. It's um you know, it's it's an unfortunate know that he's pretending not. Is he pretending not to be gay?

Allegedly, that's the word. The word is allegedly is that he's he's definitely not out. So, if he is gay, he's pretending to be straight, but there's photos of him kissing men. And, you know, there's allegedly these massage therapists that have claimed that he tried to have sex with them. I don't know if they're telling the truth or if they're just exploiting a possibility. Does that make you gay if you have sex with a man? It it definitely helps unless you're in prison. Yeah. And even then, you're just gay for the stay, right?

Exactly. I don't know. You know, I don't I just think it's an unfortunate aspect of our society that And this is a reality. If Tom Cruz is gay, it would be a very smart business move for him with his business to stay in the closet because he's a leading man. and he's a leading man that has love affairs in these movies with women. And you cannot do that if you're gay. It's one of the weird things um about being a gay person even in today's liberated and very progressive society that a woman can be gay and she can play a straight woman in a movie because no one cares.

Like if a guy meets a girl and she's beautiful but she's been gay her whole life and he turns her out and all of a sudden she's heterosexual and then he winds up marrying her and having children with her, everybody's like, "We got her." Yeah. Like men get excited, but if a woman meets a guy who's been just blowing dudes for the past 20 years and then all a sudden he decides he's not gay anymore. They're not excited about that. They're like, "Are you sure you're not gay?" Like, "I don't I don't even know how I feel about this." It's we don't accept uh a gay person yet, at least playing a straight man who's a leading man in a movie.

I don't think there's anyone who's been able to pull that off. There's that one dude, Doogie Hower. The Doogie Hower dude. He's He's He played like a womanizer in some sitcom, but nobody's buying that [ __ ] Sean Michael Patrick or Neil Patrick Harris. Yeah. Um it's it's an interesting and I one of the allegations about Scientology always used to be that um you spill your secrets in auditing which is like confession and then suddenly they're kept in a locked vault and if you leave they become public and there sort of a tacit blackmail going on.

Um so whether that's really happening uh now I don't know that that may have happened in the past allegedly. Well, there is an issue with them going after detractors and people that leave because it doesn't really exist in other organizations or or or other religions. Like a perfect example of another religion that was most obviously created by a con man is Mormonism. Joseph Smith was 14 years old when he claimed to find golden tablets that were the lost work of Jesus and then only he could read them because he had a magic sear stone.

It's a ludicrous story. It was a story that was created in 1820. It's such a ludicrous story that, you know, a lot of people when they find out about it, they go, "Wait, wait, wait, hold on." Like people people like they become Mormon and then they get deep into it and then they find out the roots of this and they go, "Wait a minute. What the fuck?" And by the way, it's that's that not Scientology that Mormonism is the fastest growing religion in America. I wonder Well, they're nice people.

This was a thing. They seem very nice. I mean, you whatever you said against Mitt Romney, I I'm glad he's not the president. But whenever I would see him with his family, I thought, well, you know, why can't our family be a bit more like that family? I am not glad he's not running for president right now. Um, I think he's a better choice. And I was shocked that he wasn't willing to oppose Donald Trump cuz I think that that would be a [ __ ] easy run for people that were conservative that were uncomfortable with this Trump character and all his [ __ ] loose dialogue and all the crazy [ __ ] that he says.

I don't think so. I think what Trump has is and it's why he's proved so uh sort of durable and popular is just this absolute I'm different. I, you know, [ __ ] everything, anti-establishment. Um, I think that's exactly what Romney doesn't have. Romney looks like the consumer insider. He's, um, he's his establishment, Washington, all the rest of it. And Trump seems is a kind of caveman. Yeah, he's a weird guy. So the, you know, the people out there, I think white blue collar kind of white Americans on the front porch see Trump and they think, "Yeah, that guy's my guy." Well, they embrace the strong man.

He's a strong man who doesn't give a [ __ ] He says crazy things. He talks about how big his penis is. I mean, he I mean, the the run up to becoming the Republican nominee was one of the most embarrassing times ever for the Republican party because you had all these fools dancing around this strong man. You had robo candidates almost literally in the case of Rubio who was kind of malfunctioning with his his kind of soundbite algorithm was glitching. So he's coming out with the same sound bite within 10 seconds.

But all these robo candidates and then someone who seemed like a kind of visceral flesh and blood human on stage and who moreover when he said stupid crazy stuff did not then hit the trail to to apologize he would just keep saying weird things. And I think people felt like you know what he's showing the media for the shell game that it is. Yes. Because he's he's saying I'm not going to do that thing of like I'm so sorry I said that. Whereas like and also the old cliche about who would you want to have a beer with?

Would you want to have a beer with Romney? First of all, Romney probably doesn't drink beer. And then uh and and Trump actually you would probably enjoy the kind of weird ludicrous just peering at him would be entertaining in itself. Did you ever see the picture that he put up on Instagram with him in Trump Tower eating a taco bowl? And this was after all the crazy remarks that he had said about Mexico and Mexicans coming over here and raping. And I talked to the president of Mexico.

Who's going to pay for that wall? You know, we're not going to pay for that wall. Yeah. Well, the wall just got 10 foot higher. And everybody starts cheering. And then he takes a photo on Instagram of him smiling eating a taco bowl. Look at this. At Trump Tower and it says he's got the thumbs up. He's eating this this taco bowl and it said something about like I love Hispanics. Happy Cinco de Mayo. But but what but what but though the best taco bowls are made in Trump Tower Grill.

And then he also said I love Hispanics. Like see if you can find the actual Instagram. What's your actual point? Look at this. Cuz I love Hispanics. I mean that's [ __ ] crazy. That's [ __ ] crazy. That I mean I saw that I'm like okay we're being trolled and look at the likes. Look at the retweets and the likes. 42,000 retweets. 44,000. Genius, isn't it? That he can speak out. He'll he'll say something crazy and then uh 10 minutes later he'll say he'll say something contradictory.

Well, it's fun for us. It's interesting. It's fun for us. And also he doesn't necessarily represent for a lot of people he doesn't like one of the things that that Romney represents that's problematic for people is that not only is his father a Mormon and not only is he from the but he's from one of the most bizarre sects of Mormons where they left the United States so that they could have multiple wives. Who? Romney's family. I don't know that. No. Is that why he's in Massachusetts?

Let me hook you up. Louie Romney's family. Is it FLDS? No. I don't know what the [ __ ] it is, but there was a Vice piece on it. It's a fascinating piece. They're they're they all live in Mexico. Okay. Romney's family. I know who you mean. They moved to Mexico before Romney's dad was born. Romney's dad was not born in the United States. He was born in Mexico. And when the United States made polygamy illegal, they decid this is in the 1800s when they didn't have cars.

So people are like, "Well, who gives a [ __ ] if we're in the United States or Mexico? we're still riding horses and banging our nine wives. Let's just go over there. So, they didn't want to give up the polygamy aspect of the religion. So, they just went south to Mexico, which was not that much different than the United States back then. Then when cars were invented and the United States really exploded and became much more prosperous than Mexico. Then ultimately it got even crazier. Well, they got involved in the drug war.

the drug war where there were there was um drug cartel people were kidnapping people in the Romney family and other Mormons that are living down there. So they started like being they had armed guards on century 24 hours. I mean it's like a scene from the walking dead. They're all standing there with highowered rifles. We're talking when? Right now. Wait, so Romney's family is still down there? Yes. Yes. Oh my goodness. Oh, it's amazing. Right now. Well, Romney was born in the United States. It's uh the Mexican Mormon War and it's a Vice series and it is wonderful because this is something that for whatever reason was not really discussed during the campaign trail.

I think they tried to keep this uh because I think they thought it would be incredibly damaging to the Republican party because this guy is the front runner for the Republicans and I don't know who the [ __ ] on the the Democratic side agreed to not really get into this. But that mean they're not just a part of a cult. They're a part of a guntoing polygamous cult that has an armed compound in Mexico. How do I not know this? Well, that's why people on it.

Romney's dad wanted to be president but could not run for president because he was born in Mexico. He came out of his mother's body in the wrong patch of dirt. So, we did not allow him to run our great nation. Isn't that amazing? It's amazing. Did he become a senator? Uh, I do not remember. He was involved in politics in some way. Um, Ted Cruz was born in Canada though, right? Yes, he is. So, did they change the rules? Dirty Canadian. He's not one of us.

I love Canadians. I'm kidding. Did they change the rules? Uh, no. Cuz he has dual citizenship because his mother was uh something. So, you can be born Yes. Like my friend Brian was born in the Philippines, but he's American because he was born. You can be American, but he was going to be I mean, yeah. But can he be president and not born in the US? Well, in my book, no, because uh he was not given the god-given right to be born in the right patch of dirt.

So, [ __ ] him. That's in my book. But constitution. Oh, well, that was something that Donald Trump was bringing up. Well, by the way, people do forget conveniently that Donald Trump was one of the primary birthers. He was one of the biggest proponents of the idea that Obama was not born in America, that he was born in Kenya. Do you remember that? That was a big issue. Oh yeah. Big time. Huge. He was I mean he still is uh propounding absolutely fringe conspiracy nut beliefs about you know he said that Obama founded ISIS right at a rally in Florida.

Did he find ISIS? Founded ISIS that he would he that Obama had started ISIS. But did he decide to say this at a rally in Florida or did Obama found ISIS in a rally in Florida? I think uh he said it at the rally. I think he said that Obama founded it in Raqqa. Obama, let me hear this. Let's hear this. All over the Middle East and it was a terrible mistake. And then Obama came in and normally you want to clean up. He made a bigger mess out of it.

He made such a mess. And then you had Hillary with Libya. So sad. In fact, in many respects, you know, they honor President Obama. ISIS Obama is honoring President Obama. He is the founder of ISIS. He's the founder. He said it three times. And they're [ __ ] founded ISIS four times. And I would say the co-founder would be crooked Hillary Clinton. Co-founder. Makes you wonder if he knows what the word found means. He doesn't give a [ __ ] He's You know what I mean?

He's a pro wrestling candidate. I had a bit about this in like 2005. I had a bit about George Bush and that he was so dumb that I I don't think that he was really the candidate that the Republicans like the best candidate they could have. I think it was a test to find out how dumb people are because there's only one way to tell. Like the people that the bankers, the industrialists, they don't really know how dumb Americans are. They know about pop culture. They know what people like.

And that they the only there was only one way to find out. You put a dumb guy in office and you see how people react. And that at the end of the uh the first year when he won again or the first term when he won again, uh I think they were sitting around going, I think we can go dumber. and and that they just decided to get some [ __ ] pro- wrestling type president, some some dude who's like a combination of like a drill sergeant and a a a pro wrestler who just, you know, you just go to Ted Nent concerts and scoop people up with nets and you just set them up and that this is kind of what he is.

I mean, you watch that that is like the even the way the audience is yelling along and cheering, it's theatrical. This is this is all like a parade. It's theater. They don't they don't necessarily think that Obama really founded ISIS. Yeah. Yeah. They don't care if he did or not. There's no thinking there. There's a there's a box that they operate on. It's a very small box they operate. All their thoughts exist inside this box and they never expand. They never go there. There's no there's no nuance.

There's no subtlety. There's no there's no broad spectrum. There's no big picture. There's none of that. It's just [ __ ] have their king. We have a lot of [ __ ] It's really easy to survive. It's real easy to have kids. You can't You can't have thought when this started, you you couldn't have thought that this would get this far, could you? Like this seemed like a joke to begin with. Yeah. I I thought somewhere along the line cooler heads would prevail. But is this I I'm torn because as a comedian, you know, I mean, this is a [ __ ] gold mine.

They are they're about to open up a dam of gold. They're going to break down the dam and gold is going to flow down. It's going to be amazing. But as a human being, this could literally lead to the end of civilization. I mean, yes, as as an as a stu as myself as a sort of student of kind of self-sabotage and the bizarre abisms of the human condition. Do you know what I mean? I find it fascinating. like you know it could be the end of the world but it it just see and there's I have a kind of chaos a chaotic streak that enjoys it's like that feeling you get in the scoop playground as a kid when a fight breaks out fight you just sort of it's like it's almost an arsonist's thrill of seeing civilization burn something's going to happen something's crazy is going to happen it's not business as usual and here's another thing that I like about it there's a a lot of things that he says that are absolutely true.

And here's one of the things that I like about what Trump represents. He is not the political establishment. And the political establishment sucks. It really does suck. It is a a corrupt completely corrupt institution. And what he's saying about crooked Hillary, I agree. Look, if you look at the Clinton Foundation, you look at what they've been able to do and the the laws they've been able to skirt and the amount of influence they're able to have and the amount of money that they're able to generate and where that money goes and how ambiguous it is and how that hasn't been investigated.

He's right. He's right in a lot of ways. So, I hope that a lot of what he's doing is theatrics. And if he does wind up winning, I hope that he puts around him some real political advisers that understand international policy, that understand and he tones everything down and this is all that's like the ultimate hope, right? I don't necessarily think I hope that he loses personally. But do you hope that Hillary wins? Cuz I hope that she doesn't win either. Well, I don't see what I mean.

I don't see Jill Stein winning. I mean, I think it's either What about Gary Johnson? He might. Who who is Gary Johnson? How dare you? He's the uh Well, he's an independent. He's uh Gary Johnson's the Libertarian candidate. He's a very reasonable guy. I thought Weld was the Libertarian candidate. No. Is Johnson is Johnson with Weld? Is Weld the vice? We're going to find out. Johnson is the former governor. Between Hillary and um and Trump, you would go Trump. No. No. No. I would go asteroid.

Would you? I hope an asteroid hits. Let's go. Uh, hubard OT3. I don't like either one of them. I'm going to buy I agree with what you said about uh it took a orange head casino magnate, you know, with pathological lying issues to point out the truth about the American the brokenness of the American Yeah. Gary Johnson and Bill Weld. Bill Weld is his vice president. Okay. Um, I think we're we're in a bad place with either one of them because either one of them are exposing the ridiculous aspects of our our society and the ridiculous aspects of our political establishment, our political system.

It's just not a good system. Representative government doesn't make any sense when people can represent themselves. It made sense back when it was impossible to get word to Washington how all these people felt. But now that people you you're almost saying by continuing representative government in 2016, you're almost saying that well you can't have one person one vote because people are too [ __ ] stupid for that. I mean you're almost saying that. Well, maybe they are. But are they? And if that's the case, we need to fix that.

Instead of just continuing business as usual, we got to figure out how to expand our educational system or enlighten some of these people or maybe drop mushrooms everywhere or something. There's there's got to be a better way than just continuing business as usual when that business has been shown, at least in Hillary Clinton's case, to be completely corrupt. Do you think Obama, how would you rate Obama? I like him as a human. What I like about Obama is he's measured. He's intelligent. And I think there's one thing that has be I mean as much as we when you you look at politics you look at someone who's running the president there's a lot of speculation how much power does he have what is it like behind closed doors what are those meetings like is you know like Sam Harris has an interesting point he's like is Obama a guy who was lying all along or when he was running for president and then gets in office and does different things like keeps Guantanamo Bay open and doesn't leave Iraq and all all the different things that he sort of reneged on or is it that you become become president and then you are briefed and then someone sits down and explains to you the horrific nature of the outside world and here are the threats to civilization itself.

Here are the threats in terms of terrorism in terms of uh you know these different dictatorships that are seeking to gain nuclear arms and here's here's some real problems and here's the strategies and here's what we have to do and here's why we can't do what you promised. There's that too. I don't know. We don't know. But what what Obama does represent, and here's what trickles down, is as a man, he's very measured. He's very intelligent. He's he's very articulate. He he doesn't lose his cool.

He doesn't respond to nonsense. And the speeches that he gives are they're they're a great representative of education, of dignity, of a guy who speaks very well and a guy who is smarter than most people that you know. I think there's something to be said for that. And I think that that is what George Bush wasn't. And that was what was appealing to me about Obama. But, you know, but Eve bullshits too, you know. So, it's like at what point in time do you get to speak your mind?

Do you ever do you ever get to say what you really think? And if that's what he really thinks, if that's who he really is, when you're a politician, you are almost required to try to play this game of not pissing people off over expressing your true feelings on things. Like you you've got to kind of play it as much down the middle. You know that there's going to be a bunch of people on this side that are going to hate you. There's going to be a bunch of people on that side that don't think you're going far enough, but you shoot down the middle and you get the best results.

It's almost like pretending to be someone who you're not to try to pick people up at a bar. Like it's it's a it's a [ __ ] act. And that's what politicians are. They're bullshitters. They're they're really good at bullshitting. What's bizarre about Trump is that he's not doing that. That this is who he is. I think that's there that's true. I think but but I to go to your point about whether people are stupid or not. I think you know that's an unkind way of phrasing it.

I'm an unkind dude. But but actually no one has the time. You know we have jobs to do and to be informed on all the subjects you would need to be informed on to make the right decisions to run the country. You would you no one has the time. So we need people to specialize in these things. And it's like Brexit was a triumph of uh you know in the UK when it was put to the vote this massive decision on whether to be part of the EU.

No one in that space of time as an member of the electorate could educate themselves to the point where they could make an informed choice on that. And so people thought you know what I just want to have something different. Let's vote for a change. And we we had Brexit with I would argue disastrous results. Well, temporarily disastrous, but you know, to be seen whether or not it it's ultimately disastrous. My friend Steve Hilton, who's a very bright guy who's been on this podcast before, he was David Cameron's right-hand man.

He actually is a supporter of Brexit. That's one of the things that he had a problem with Cameron over. They had a falling out. Um, I want to talk to him, sit down with him. I don't know enough of it. I don't really follow any politics. I barely follow the United States. I bar I didn't know what the [ __ ] Brexit was until it was going down and everybody was saying it was the end of the world. Yeah, I mean I agree like I feel as though um it's easy to go along with the group think but um I was in favor of staying in Europe.

Well, when I'm talking about representative government, what I'm talking about is like um this electoral college setup and the one person, one vote setup and the the idea that 300 plus million people are going to be represented by just a handful of people. I agree with that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean the whole pro and the way in which Bernie Sanders was marginalized I think and likewise, you know, in a way the fact that Trump could run away with it is is I mean it's just fascinating how he managed to up overturn the apple cart.

I I hadn't, you know, I haven't really grappled with the minutia of how US democracy works, but it seems to me like it's a really bizarre arcane system with the delegates and whatnot. Exactly. Who came up with that? Well, they came up with it back when there was no communication. They they came up with it back when you had to take a horse and you had to carry a handwritten letter across the country to communicate with people and that was just is ineffective. They had to figure out how to have people in your various states and various counties and various districts represent the greater good of the people and also have the ability to decide over the rest of the people.

That's one of the things that people don't even realize in representative government. when you have this one person who represents a group of the people. If the group of the people the group uh decides to vote for Hillary Clinton, that one person doesn't have to agree with that. It's a weird funky system. And it's designed for back when people were illiterate and there's a bunch of farmers and pilgrims and savages that came over from Europe on rafts and made it to America and just [ __ ] have at it.

And they're trying to trying to manage this and trying to trying to figure out how to take the founding father's ideas and best keep it all together while they're exploring this whole new world and and dealing with governing these people that were literally thousands of miles away that you couldn't even reach. We can do that now. I mean instantaneously someone can send a Facebook message, they can send an email, they can they can tweet. You can find out what people's opinions are. But then it becomes whether or not these people are qualified to decide which direction the country goes.

Well, if they're not qualified, we should probably figure out what the [ __ ] we can do to make people more aware of what are the consequences of all these different decisions that are going to be made by our politicians. because there's a lot of stuff that gets made when it comes to disastrous implications for the environment. I mean, when when Obama was in office, he he set so much in in order or so much um in motion that environmentalists and people that are are against offshore drilling.

I mean, there's a lot of fracking and offshore drilling and all sorts of things that could potentially have disastrous implications that were set forth by him that no one had any say in. No, no person in America that was just a regular citizen had any say in these major decisions. Like, you know, Mark Ruffalo just tweeted something about all the different um uh offshore oil rigs that Obama had agreed to while he was in office. And it's disturbing really. That's interesting. I have to say as as someone who you know who who resides in the UK and who's more used to the British system, the biggest shock when you come over here is during the election cycle the amount of money that gets spent and the length of the campaigns and where for all its flaws in in Britain there's a cap on how much they can spend on their campaigns.

So they have like one or two TV ads each and then a couple of posters, but they do not do anything on the scale of what happens here. And the amount of money that gets spent here is just insane. So it does seem it has all the hallmarks of a broken system, I would say. Well, not only that, there's two recognized parties and anything else you're throwing your vote away. That's the that's the implication. That's what that's how people think. And um you know uh Tom Rhodess friend of mine was in um he lived in Holland for quite a quite a while and he was talking about the variety of candidates to choose from in Holland and how they just have so many different people.

They have conservative liberals. They have conservative Green Party candidates. They have liberal Green Party candidates. They have I mean it just goes across this just wide range of different philosophies on how to govern. And people get a better sense of, you know, what they would like or what they agree with most because this hardline right and hardline left and this rigid ideology that you have to subscribe to on both sides. It's like if you're on the right, you don't support gay marriage, you're anti-abortion, you're this, you're that, you want gun rights, you want this, you you know, you know, [ __ ] immigration, you know, there's all this stuff that you have to kind of agree to if you agree to the right.

And then on the left, you have to agree to a lot of things that people, you know, not necessarily agree as well. So, it's it's it's so complicated to have a two-party system and try to pretend that there's a real democracy that is a and it's not really a democracy. representative government. Yeah. I mean, that's that's for sure. Do you think Trump's got a chance of winning? Yes, I do. Especially if if people find out what Hillary has really been involved in. I mean, if they really start hammering that, like we have a few months to go.

It's only August. We have to go through all of September, all of October, and then November. That's a lot of time. And in that time, crazy [ __ ] can come out. And it seems, I mean, I've read in the LA Times that he's already on a mini rebound based on this semi-apology he delivered last week. And that if he could tone it down a couple of notches and just sort of appeal to a few more women and just seem a little bit less insane, yeah, he will climb in the poll numbers.

He could do it. Well, she's under two criminal investigations. And there's also plenty of video out there where there's a direct contradiction between what the FBI has said they were investigating, what she was guilty of, and then what she has said they said. So, she's not honest. She's just not. I mean, it's pretty clear when you compare many things to what she said versus the actual facts. Just she's a lawyer. She's a lawyer who became a politician. She's a career politician. She knows what to do.

She's she's got teflon in her DNA and she keeps plowing forward no matter what. She doesn't do interviews. She's not doing any of these rallies. She's just she's just going forward and it's very bizarre. There's also a lot of questions. I mean, Dr. Drew did some big thing the other day talking about her health because, you know, she had fallen down in 2012 and apparently like had a blood clot on her brain and really hurt herself really badly. And at her advanced age, this is a really dangerous condition.

and he talked about her health care and talked about the the care that she received and what the diagnosis was and he's like this is not this is dangerous stuff and so who knows how much of her behavior cuz traumatic brain injuries are really significant when it comes to the way your your brain works post injury the way you behave uh impulsive behavior um I made a program on that subject yeah last year what was it about it was called A different brain and it was a it was set in a brain injury rehabilitation clinic in the UK and it was basically about serious personality changes in the wake of a traumatic brain injury.

M um as you say impulsivity um sometimes a lack of empathy um erratic behavior and and it was about uh guy people you know inevitably it's about the relationships that they're in and the way in which people have to adapt around to the new needs and you know yeah it was it's unbelievable stuff I mean you talk about I mean you know better than anyone from your sports kind of interests that um post boxing post NFL post hockey if you if you're a fighter in hockey Edium and pro pro wrestling too.

There's been several terrific documentaries, one by Steve James called um Head Games and a few others that all examine I mean the levels of erratic behavior after an NFL career are unreal. Whether it's divorce, bankruptcy, suicide, or or you know serious depression, it's off the charts. Yeah. Um I've seen it firsthand. I've seen it firsthand from friends who became erratic and became really unstable after getting beat a few times in mixed martial arts fights. I've seen it from boxers, people that I knew when I was young and then I met them 10, 15 years later and they're just life was a mess.

They become alcoholics. They have a huge issue with their endocrine system and they they they supplement with alcohol and drugs to try to self-medicate. It becomes a real problem. I mean, the brain is very fragile. It's it's connected with this very very soft connective tissue that keeps it in place inside the head. It's just not meant to be hit that much. You know, you're meant to like survive a few bumps and bruises and that's what it's kind of designed for. And anything else, especially prolonged continued abuse like that can have dire consequences or one significant injury can have dire consequences.

One significant one can be life-changing or in the sports context, two concussions. I'm sure you know back to back within a single sort of space of time like one game you know the first one's not good but the second one is cataclysmic. Yes. And it happens a lot of times where people deny the first concussion and they go right back to playing football or they go right back to sparring. It's a huge issue. But you think Hillary may have a um a TBI, a traumatic brain injury.

Well, I'm no doctor obviously, but she definitely had a traumatic brain injury. She fell and she had a blood clot in her brain. I mean, this is all open public record. The diagnosis when you have a blood clot on your brain at 60s something years of age, that is incredibly dangerous. It's really bad. And then you have to address like what made her pass out in the first place, like what made her black out when she fell down and hit her head. That's not good. I think what we what we really need in this country is like some altruistic Elon Musk type character.

some a real genius, someone who's like a really brilliant person who sees the state the country's in and offers some intelligent, wellthoughtout solutions. That doesn't exist because those people are too busy doing whatever they're doing. So, what we're left with is career politicians and then this madman who's a reality TV star, who's a, you know, a casino man. I don't I don't think that our system is good. I think it's very archaic. I think it's it's just not the best we can do. And I think we're just going to continue to use it until it blows up in our face.

It's like instead of redesigning cars, we've got some Model T and we keep adding turbochargers to it and [ __ ] bigger wheels and and someone says, "Hey, man. I I think we can make a better car. [ __ ] that. This is our car. USA. USA." And they keep they keep just slapping bolts and [ __ ] rivets and screwing this thing in place. And it's not good. It's not a good system. And it's not the best we can do. It's certainly not ideal. And I think human beings in all areas of life other than our political system, we have advanced radically since the 1700s.

If you look at the way we approach education, if you look at our ability to communicate with each other, you look at technology, the innovation and the the the constant expanding of our horizons and possibilities as far as what we're capable of with technology. All those things have radically improved since then. But we still have this goofy system that was created back when people rode horses, wrote with feathers, and when you wanted to picture something, you had to draw it. I mean, that is that is But that's great because that's a great metaphor for the human brain in a way and and and kind of a big thought to carry us as we sort of draw to the close of our interview.

you know, because that the brain, you know, our our brains are hinged around um the innermost parts of our of our brain, the amygdala, which is essentially reptilian in origin, you know, and so many of our deepest impulses, the sort of fear response and so forth, are programmed from a kind of evolutionary heritage. You know, we've got neuroscircuits that go back thousands, if not millions of years. And you know that metaphor you use to describe our political system of being an old jalapy that's been turbocharged is in essence what our brains are.

And you know, as much as it would be lovely to believe that technology and our ability to control nature and control our environment had been handinhand with sort of a moral and civilizational uh improvement that you could deduce maybe as many uh examples that suggest that all it's done is allowed us to do everything whether for good or ill more efficiently and more effectively. Yeah. So we can help more people, we can blow more people up. you can drive faster, but you can drive faster away from a crime.

Do you know what I mean? So, uh I don't hold out any huge hope um that there will be uh a positive change. See, I think that I mean, I might be wrong. Sometimes I read things that persuade me otherwise. I think that we're more advanced and more safe now than ever before. I think if you look back on 2,000 years ago and you look at today, which is a blink in the eye in terms of the age of the earth, it's infinitely better to live today than it is then.

Certainly here in America or in the in the West, but you know, in a in a globe with six, is it six billion? I think it's seven. If you were going to if you were dropped at random on Earth, where where would you where I mean, chances are you wouldn't be Joe Rogan. You would probably be what? I don't know. Would you you'd probably be there working in making Apple phones in a factory. You could be or you could be in China living in some skyrise being some multi-billionaire cell phone magnate.

Who who who the hell knows, you know? I mean, there's there's certainly some wonderful spots in the world outside of America. There's certainly some great places to live. Even if you live in poverty, you could live a wonderful, happy life that's way safer than it would be thousands and thousands of years ago. The internet is pretty much worldwide. Um, cell phones are pretty much available everywhere now. And so I think that access to communication is going to change the way people view the world because they're going to have more data to choose from.

They're going to have more cherry-picking that they can do. They can certainly have more confirmation bias and stick to their own group like we're talking about with Scientologists who don't go on the internet, don't take any suppressive information, and don't watch any videos. I think um I think what I'd like about your approach and what I like about what you're saying when it comes to Scientology is that you're not a mean person. You're not like mocking them and you don't want to [ __ ] on them.

What you want to do is you want to look at them for what they really are and try to get a really good understanding of it. Like one of my favorite parts of the trailer was that guy filming you and you're filming him and you go, "Are you making a documentary, too?" Yeah. Well, and it's that's it, isn't it? because you don't want to, you know, if I can quote n which is kind of a sophomoreic thing to do, but it's the idea of like you don't when you when you look into the abyss, the abyss looks alter you like when you fight monsters don't become a monster and I don't want to they're they're bullies in many cases and I didn't want to bully them back and I didn't want to be trapped into a paradigm of us against them and I was really trying to say look let's keep I don't want I don't I want to see the human in you yes not just an agent for an oppressor ive regime.

I think that's beautiful. I really do. And I think that is a very measured and intelligent and wise way to approach this. And I I've enjoyed that about your other videos as well. I think uh in that sense, you're very unique in the way you uh you approach documentary film making. And I think uh the the Scientologists, they're not our enemies. And the the gentleman who left, who was the number two guy, what was his name again? Marty Wthben. Look, he's a perfect example of that.

You're talking about a guy was in it for two plus decades. he left and he's, you know, sort of coming clean about all the stupid [ __ ] that he did when he was in there. People become a prisoner of their earliest ideology, the earliest ideology that they adopt. And that's one of the problems with any sort of a group think, whether it's a cult, a religion, whatever the [ __ ] you want to call it, ideologies become problematic when you can't escape. You can't vary.

You can't you have to stick to the dogma. You have to stick to the doctrine. And that's not good for people. It's not healthy. It's not smart. Because I think the ability to communicate and open debate is why we've advanced to the point we're at in the first place. The suppressing of that is almost always someone who has a bad idea that they're trying to shelter. So when you see people that are chasing after someone because they're trying to communicate about something like you who's doing it super respectfully when when you see that what you have is a bunch of people that are trying to defend a bad idea and defend it with aggression.

That's exactly right. And and but if the more you kind of become a mirror image of whatever whatever they're projecting, you reinforce them in their position as well. from doing other stories about extreme religious beliefs like the Westboro Baptist Church, I know from people who I met who were in the church when I made my documentary and then subsequently left that uh what shortcircuits their beliefs, what allows them to see something bigger than what they're in is when you treat them with kindness, you know, and and instead of um shouting back at them or hurling abuse back, which just reinforces their view of you as um an enemy of God or suppressive or however they characterize it.

If you actually behave decently in attempt to robustly present your position but in a respectful way and with a kind of coming from a place of caring and empathy as opposed to um sort of sensorious or hostile attitude that actually um can be much more effective. Absolutely. You know, as well as being humane. Kudos to you, sir. Oh, thanks. I'm a big fan. I really am. I really appreciate you coming back here and I'd love to have you back before uh the documentary comes out which is in January and uh hopefully by then the Scientologists have they've wised up and they've let you know maybe their film will be out and we can plug their documentary.

Yeah, we we will maybe their film is going to say Louis is a really great guy. Yeah, we we we investigated it. We found out he really practices what he preaches and we're sorry. I don't think it will be, but we'll see. All right, folks. We'll be back in just a little bit with uh Hannibal Burus. He'll be back at uh five o'clock, which is an hour from now. So until then, enjoy yourself.