Jim Collins — What to Make of a Life

Joanne just one day she gasps out to me Joanne just one day she gasps out to me and it was just one of those moments. and it was just one of those moments. and it was just one of those moments. It's just like etched in my emotional It's just like etched in my emotional It's just like etched in my emotional memory. She just gasps. memory. She just gasps. memory. She just gasps. I feel like I'm dying. And in a sense, I feel like I'm dying. And in a sense, I feel like I'm dying. And in a sense, she was right cuz that identity as as a she was right cuz that identity as as a she was right cuz that identity as as a world champion athlete, this thing that world champion athlete, this thing that world champion athlete, this thing that she was so encoded for, that she so she was so encoded for, that she so she was so encoded for, that she so loved doing was being taken away from loved doing was being taken away from loved doing was being taken away from her. And I realized that one way to her. And I realized that one way to her. And I realized that one way to study self-renewal study self-renewal study self-renewal would be to look at people who go would be to look at people who go would be to look at people who go through what in the book we call cliff through what in the book we call cliff through what in the book we call cliff events. These times in life where life events. These times in life where life events. These times in life where life in some really significant way changes in some really significant way changes in some really significant way changes under your feet. under your feet. under your feet. >> Jim, so lovely to see you yet again. >> Jim, so lovely to see you yet again. >> Jim, so lovely to see you yet again. >> Absolutely. I I really really truly just >> Absolutely. I I really really truly just >> Absolutely. I I really really truly just revel in the idea of a conversation with revel in the idea of a conversation with revel in the idea of a conversation with you. We've had two previous dances and I you. We've had two previous dances and I you. We've had two previous dances and I wanted to thank you slashblame you for a wanted to thank you slashblame you for a wanted to thank you slashblame you for a very difficult morning because I had very difficult morning because I had very difficult morning because I had done lots of research and reading done lots of research and reading done lots of research and reading certainly on your latest work which took certainly on your latest work which took certainly on your latest work which took quite a tour of duty to complete. And I quite a tour of duty to complete. And I quite a tour of duty to complete. And I decided that this morning I would go decided that this morning I would go decided that this morning I would go back back back with a lot of coffee to reread the with a lot of coffee to reread the with a lot of coffee to reread the transcripts of our prior two transcripts of our prior two transcripts of our prior two conversations. And typically when I do conversations. And typically when I do conversations. And typically when I do something like that, something like that, something like that, >> I have a few highlights, a few >> I have a few highlights, a few >> I have a few highlights, a few marginelia to refer back to. And I ended marginelia to refer back to. And I ended marginelia to refer back to. And I ended up underlining about 50 different up underlining about 50 different up underlining about 50 different things. And it caused a bit of a crisis things. And it caused a bit of a crisis things. And it caused a bit of a crisis in terms of where to start and what to in terms of where to start and what to in terms of where to start and what to do. do. do. >> Yeah. But I do have a lot of notes in >> Yeah. But I do have a lot of notes in >> Yeah. But I do have a lot of notes in the latest work, what to make of a life. the latest work, what to make of a life. the latest work, what to make of a life. And we will certainly get to that, but And we will certainly get to that, but And we will certainly get to that, but we're going to meander all over the we're going to meander all over the we're going to meander all over the place. place. place. >> You got it. >> You got it. >> You got it. >> And I wanted to start with, and I'm >> And I wanted to start with, and I'm >> And I wanted to start with, and I'm paraphrasing here, but paraphrasing here, but paraphrasing here, but a line in this new work, which is a line in this new work, which is a line in this new work, which is effectively that you have more energy at effectively that you have more energy at effectively that you have more energy at 67 than 37. 67 than 37. 67 than 37. >> You are now 68. And I wanted to dig into >> You are now 68. And I wanted to dig into >> You are now 68. And I wanted to dig into that for a minute or maybe even a few that for a minute or maybe even a few that for a minute or maybe even a few minutes. minutes. minutes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because looking back at the last two >> Because looking back at the last two >> Because looking back at the last two conversations, I wanted to spot gaps in conversations, I wanted to spot gaps in conversations, I wanted to spot gaps in the terrain. What had we not discussed? the terrain. What had we not discussed? the terrain. What had we not discussed? >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And >> And >> And I wanted to look at some of maybe the I wanted to look at some of maybe the I wanted to look at some of maybe the mundane things related to routine mundane things related to routine mundane things related to routine >> food. Do you consume caffeine? Are you >> food. Do you consume caffeine? Are you >> food. Do you consume caffeine? Are you still rock climbing? Maybe we'll start still rock climbing? Maybe we'll start still rock climbing? Maybe we'll start with rock climbing cuz I just had elbow with rock climbing cuz I just had elbow with rock climbing cuz I just had elbow surgery and I'm looking to get back into surgery and I'm looking to get back into surgery and I'm looking to get back into it. Are you still climbing? it. Are you still climbing? it. Are you still climbing? >> Not so much. I've been doing cycling >> Not so much. I've been doing cycling >> Not so much. I've been doing cycling with Joanne. with Joanne. with Joanne. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> She has gotten me into going off to >> She has gotten me into going off to >> She has gotten me into going off to Italy and the Dolommites and places like Italy and the Dolommites and places like Italy and the Dolommites and places like that to do these huge mountain passes that to do these huge mountain passes that to do these huge mountain passes and and and >> it's something we can share together. >> it's something we can share together. >> it's something we can share together. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> With whatever years we have left. And I >> With whatever years we have left. And I >> With whatever years we have left. And I think that maybe the intense aerobic think that maybe the intense aerobic think that maybe the intense aerobic aspect of that, you know, if you have aspect of that, you know, if you have aspect of that, you know, if you have your heart rate above 160 for an hour, 2 your heart rate above 160 for an hour, 2 your heart rate above 160 for an hour, 2 hours, I mean, and spiking into the hours, I mean, and spiking into the hours, I mean, and spiking into the 170s, that's I think that has does 170s, that's I think that has does 170s, that's I think that has does something for you. I'm not sure what. something for you. I'm not sure what. something for you. I'm not sure what. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But I actually think that's part of it. >> But I actually think that's part of it. >> But I actually think that's part of it. And then I just have other ways. I can't And then I just have other ways. I can't And then I just have other ways. I can't really explain entirely. In fact, that really explain entirely. In fact, that really explain entirely. In fact, that my team has heard me say multiple times, my team has heard me say multiple times, my team has heard me say multiple times, where's all this energy come from? Cuz where's all this energy come from? Cuz where's all this energy come from? Cuz it's only increased. I really do feel it's only increased. I really do feel it's only increased. I really do feel that I have more energy. I had a lot of that I have more energy. I had a lot of that I have more energy. I had a lot of energy at 37. I had a lot of energy at energy at 37. I had a lot of energy at energy at 37. I had a lot of energy at 17. I have more energy at 67 when I 17. I have more energy at 67 when I 17. I have more energy at 67 when I wrote that. 68 now. wrote that. 68 now. wrote that. 68 now. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I need less sleep. My clarity, if >> I need less sleep. My clarity, if >> I need less sleep. My clarity, if anything, I think is higher. And I I anything, I think is higher. And I I anything, I think is higher. And I I mean, I really really look forward to mean, I really really look forward to mean, I really really look forward to 4:00 a.m. because that's the point at 4:00 a.m. because that's the point at 4:00 a.m. because that's the point at which I give myself permission which I give myself permission which I give myself permission >> if I'm awake to leap into the day. And >> if I'm awake to leap into the day. And >> if I'm awake to leap into the day. And it really is true that I will wake up it really is true that I will wake up it really is true that I will wake up and I will think to myself, please, oh, and I will think to myself, please, oh, and I will think to myself, please, oh, please, oh, please let it be at least please, oh, please let it be at least please, oh, please let it be at least 4:00 a.m. so that I can get up and get 4:00 a.m. so that I can get up and get 4:00 a.m. so that I can get up and get going. And that is it's hard to explain, going. And that is it's hard to explain, going. And that is it's hard to explain, but that sense of almost childlike but that sense of almost childlike but that sense of almost childlike anticipation anticipation anticipation >> uh to get up and get rolling is is >> uh to get up and get rolling is is >> uh to get up and get rolling is is palpable. It's there almost every single palpable. It's there almost every single palpable. It's there almost every single day. Well, I do get one, we might have day. Well, I do get one, we might have day. Well, I do get one, we might have spoken about this in our first spoken about this in our first spoken about this in our first conversation, but I've always been a conversation, but I've always been a conversation, but I've always been a morning person. So, I actually figured morning person. So, I actually figured morning person. So, I actually figured out how to get two mornings a day and out how to get two mornings a day and out how to get two mornings a day and that I I'm just really fortunate that I that I I'm just really fortunate that I that I I'm just really fortunate that I have the ability to nap under any have the ability to nap under any have the ability to nap under any conditions anywhere at any time I can conditions anywhere at any time I can conditions anywhere at any time I can nap. And I I was doing a a talk once and nap. And I I was doing a a talk once and nap. And I I was doing a a talk once and I was a few thousand people in the room I was a few thousand people in the room I was a few thousand people in the room and they had a nice couch backstage and and they had a nice couch backstage and and they had a nice couch backstage and I'm supposed to go on and I don't know I'm supposed to go on and I don't know I'm supposed to go on and I don't know whatever it was 30 minutes or something whatever it was 30 minutes or something whatever it was 30 minutes or something and I laid down on the couch and I just and I laid down on the couch and I just and I laid down on the couch and I just went bang right out to sleep. I'm like went bang right out to sleep. I'm like went bang right out to sleep. I'm like I'm dreaming and I'm having a sleep etc. I'm dreaming and I'm having a sleep etc. I'm dreaming and I'm having a sleep etc. And they come back and they look at me And they come back and they look at me And they come back and they look at me and they're like he's asleep. Oh my and they're like he's asleep. Oh my and they're like he's asleep. Oh my goodness, he's supposed to be on in like goodness, he's supposed to be on in like goodness, he's supposed to be on in like 5 minutes and they shake me and I'm like 5 minutes and they shake me and I'm like 5 minutes and they shake me and I'm like okay good to go. I I can go asleep okay good to go. I I can go asleep okay good to go. I I can go asleep immediately and then I can wake up immediately and then I can wake up immediately and then I can wake up immediately and then I can walk out immediately and then I can walk out immediately and then I can walk out 3,000 people and I was asleep five 3,000 people and I was asleep five 3,000 people and I was asleep five minutes before. I don't know where that minutes before. I don't know where that minutes before. I don't know where that comes from. That's just a fortunate comes from. That's just a fortunate comes from. That's just a fortunate thing. But what that allows me is I get thing. But what that allows me is I get thing. But what that allows me is I get two mornings a day. I get first morning, two mornings a day. I get first morning, two mornings a day. I get first morning, you know, that when after a night's you know, that when after a night's you know, that when after a night's sleep, but then I get second morning, sleep, but then I get second morning, sleep, but then I get second morning, which is after a nap. And and in fact, which is after a nap. And and in fact, which is after a nap. And and in fact, my team knows that I'll sometimes say to my team knows that I'll sometimes say to my team knows that I'll sometimes say to them, "I'm going to go get ready for them, "I'm going to go get ready for them, "I'm going to go get ready for second morning," which basically is, second morning," which basically is, second morning," which basically is, "I'm going to go take a nap." And then I "I'm going to go take a nap." And then I "I'm going to go take a nap." And then I get second morning. And then I've get second morning. And then I've get second morning. And then I've learned really systematically learned really systematically learned really systematically what kinds of activities what kinds of activities what kinds of activities really fit with what times of day. So is really fit with what times of day. So is really fit with what times of day. So is your first morning, Jim, sorry to your first morning, Jim, sorry to your first morning, Jim, sorry to interrupt. Is that 4:00 a.m. to 7:00 interrupt. Is that 4:00 a.m. to 7:00 interrupt. Is that 4:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m. Something like that? What does your a.m. Something like that? What does your a.m. Something like that? What does your first morning look like? first morning look like? first morning look like? >> That's ideal. I love I love the 4:00 >> That's ideal. I love I love the 4:00 >> That's ideal. I love I love the 4:00 a.m. to 7 a.m. Joanne tends to sleep a.m. to 7 a.m. Joanne tends to sleep a.m. to 7 a.m. Joanne tends to sleep later than me. So, especially when I was later than me. So, especially when I was later than me. So, especially when I was like really working on the book, but like really working on the book, but like really working on the book, but this is a general pattern as well. I this is a general pattern as well. I this is a general pattern as well. I love to be up at 4:00. love to be up at 4:00. love to be up at 4:00. I have one cup of coffee that I make in I have one cup of coffee that I make in I have one cup of coffee that I make in the day. I don't have caffeine after the day. I don't have caffeine after the day. I don't have caffeine after that. I travel with my own coffee cuz that. I travel with my own coffee cuz that. I travel with my own coffee cuz you you really need to. The only place I you you really need to. The only place I you you really need to. The only place I go where I don't take my own coffee is go where I don't take my own coffee is go where I don't take my own coffee is Italy. I make my own coffee and I start Italy. I make my own coffee and I start Italy. I make my own coffee and I start the day and that's that one one cup that the day and that's that one one cup that the day and that's that one one cup that I make and I get right into usually I make and I get right into usually I make and I get right into usually that's when I do my most intense that's when I do my most intense that's when I do my most intense creative work and I love that sort of 3 creative work and I love that sort of 3 creative work and I love that sort of 3 to four hours if I can get it of just to four hours if I can get it of just to four hours if I can get it of just you know the light changing and bang you know the light changing and bang you know the light changing and bang into it. I like within 15 minutes I'm into it. I like within 15 minutes I'm into it. I like within 15 minutes I'm fully into it and just go. fully into it and just go. fully into it and just go. >> When do you consume your first food >> When do you consume your first food >> When do you consume your first food typically and what is what does that typically and what is what does that typically and what is what does that meal look like if it's a meal? I always meal look like if it's a meal? I always meal look like if it's a meal? I always have something with my morning cup of have something with my morning cup of have something with my morning cup of coffee so that I I have enough calories coffee so that I I have enough calories coffee so that I I have enough calories to keep my brain going. And I just I to keep my brain going. And I just I to keep my brain going. And I just I just grab something that's fairly easy just grab something that's fairly easy just grab something that's fairly easy to eat with with a cup of coffee, a Kind to eat with with a cup of coffee, a Kind to eat with with a cup of coffee, a Kind bar or maybe a yogurt or something like bar or maybe a yogurt or something like bar or maybe a yogurt or something like that. that. that. >> And then I have breakfast with Joanne. >> And then I have breakfast with Joanne. >> And then I have breakfast with Joanne. We have a morning when, you know, when We have a morning when, you know, when We have a morning when, you know, when I'm in town, which is most days. I don't I'm in town, which is most days. I don't I'm in town, which is most days. I don't like to travel that much. And once like to travel that much. And once like to travel that much. And once Joann's up and going, I make her a Joann's up and going, I make her a Joann's up and going, I make her a latte. We joke that I'm a coffee elf and latte. We joke that I'm a coffee elf and latte. We joke that I'm a coffee elf and I make her a latte and then Joanne I make her a latte and then Joanne I make her a latte and then Joanne curates stories from, you know, the Wall curates stories from, you know, the Wall curates stories from, you know, the Wall Street Journal or from, you know, Street Journal or from, you know, Street Journal or from, you know, wherever and she reads them out loud and wherever and she reads them out loud and wherever and she reads them out loud and then we talk about them. then we talk about them. then we talk about them. >> Is this after your first morning? >> Is this after your first morning? >> Is this after your first morning? >> Usually after first morning. Exactly. >> Usually after first morning. Exactly. >> Usually after first morning. Exactly. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Sometimes we might get up at about >> Yeah. Sometimes we might get up at about >> Yeah. Sometimes we might get up at about the same time, but most times I'm up the same time, but most times I'm up the same time, but most times I'm up early. And so then I have a pretty a early. And so then I have a pretty a early. And so then I have a pretty a more robust breakfast and and really more robust breakfast and and really more robust breakfast and and really listen to Joanne's curation. And I'm listen to Joanne's curation. And I'm listen to Joanne's curation. And I'm always just really curious what she always just really curious what she always just really curious what she thinks. Could I just add a little thinks. Could I just add a little thinks. Could I just add a little running commentary if I could? running commentary if I could? running commentary if I could? >> Sure, please. So, the first is that I've >> Sure, please. So, the first is that I've >> Sure, please. So, the first is that I've noticed this across a few different noticed this across a few different noticed this across a few different disciplines that disciplines that disciplines that as a comparison, Marcelo Garcia, as a comparison, Marcelo Garcia, as a comparison, Marcelo Garcia, ninetime world champion in Brazilian ninetime world champion in Brazilian ninetime world champion in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, considered by many to be the jiu-jitsu, considered by many to be the jiu-jitsu, considered by many to be the greatest of all time, he greatest of all time, he greatest of all time, he is incredibly good at going from is incredibly good at going from is incredibly good at going from effectively 1 to 10 on an intensity effectively 1 to 10 on an intensity effectively 1 to 10 on an intensity scale. So even before his finals match scale. So even before his finals match scale. So even before his finals match in the world championships, my friend in the world championships, my friend in the world championships, my friend Josh Whiteskin, who is the basis for Josh Whiteskin, who is the basis for Josh Whiteskin, who is the basis for searching for Bobby Fischer, also very searching for Bobby Fischer, also very searching for Bobby Fischer, also very good at this, told the story of them good at this, told the story of them good at this, told the story of them trying to track down Marcelo because he trying to track down Marcelo because he trying to track down Marcelo because he was about to be in the final match was about to be in the final match was about to be in the final match >> for his particular weight class. It >> for his particular weight class. It >> for his particular weight class. It might have been the unlimited division. might have been the unlimited division. might have been the unlimited division. And they couldn't find him because he And they couldn't find him because he And they couldn't find him because he was sleeping under the bleachers. was sleeping under the bleachers. was sleeping under the bleachers. Yeah, I kind of had to wake him up and Yeah, I kind of had to wake him up and Yeah, I kind of had to wake him up and then he walked to the mat, kind of shook then he walked to the mat, kind of shook then he walked to the mat, kind of shook his head and went from 1 to 10. And what his head and went from 1 to 10. And what his head and went from 1 to 10. And what Josh has said, Josh has said, Josh has said, and Marcelo echoes this certainly in and Marcelo echoes this certainly in and Marcelo echoes this certainly in different language is avoiding the different language is avoiding the different language is avoiding the simmering six. So basically not being in simmering six. So basically not being in simmering six. So basically not being in this simmering this simmering this simmering six, but oscillating between rest or six, but oscillating between rest or six, but oscillating between rest or full activation, so to speak. The second full activation, so to speak. The second full activation, so to speak. The second thing I wanted to comment on is the gear thing I wanted to comment on is the gear thing I wanted to comment on is the gear shift to shared activities shift to shared activities shift to shared activities >> and biking with Joanne because I have >> and biking with Joanne because I have >> and biking with Joanne because I have seen in some of the most successful seen in some of the most successful seen in some of the most successful relationships that I've observed and relationships that I've observed and relationships that I've observed and certainly that I'm modeling now for certainly that I'm modeling now for certainly that I'm modeling now for myself myself myself >> that at some point there's often an >> that at some point there's often an >> that at some point there's often an activity shift to focus on what you can activity shift to focus on what you can activity shift to focus on what you can share together. Kelly Starret, very share together. Kelly Starret, very share together. Kelly Starret, very famous performance coach, PT and other famous performance coach, PT and other famous performance coach, PT and other things, has done this with his wife things, has done this with his wife things, has done this with his wife Juliet, who's amazing, where he's Juliet, who's amazing, where he's Juliet, who's amazing, where he's shifted from some of the things he used shifted from some of the things he used shifted from some of the things he used to do to actually mountain biking. This to do to actually mountain biking. This to do to actually mountain biking. This is in Northern California. So, just is in Northern California. So, just is in Northern California. So, just wanted to make those observations to ask wanted to make those observations to ask wanted to make those observations to ask a very very specific question. You said a very very specific question. You said a very very specific question. You said you travel with your own coffee. you travel with your own coffee. you travel with your own coffee. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I have to scratch the itch. What are you >> I have to scratch the itch. What are you >> I have to scratch the itch. What are you actually packing actually packing actually packing specifically? So I take I pack Pete's specifically? So I take I pack Pete's specifically? So I take I pack Pete's ground coffee, ground coffee, ground coffee, Arabian mocha java, a cone filter, the Arabian mocha java, a cone filter, the Arabian mocha java, a cone filter, the filters themselves, filters themselves, filters themselves, a water boiler so that you can, you a water boiler so that you can, you a water boiler so that you can, you know, make sure that you have hot water know, make sure that you have hot water know, make sure that you have hot water and and have kind of the whole setup and and have kind of the whole setup and and have kind of the whole setup that way. And then when I start the day, that way. And then when I start the day, that way. And then when I start the day, you know, I I get the whole sort of you know, I I get the whole sort of you know, I I get the whole sort of system going. And it doesn't really system going. And it doesn't really system going. And it doesn't really matter where I am or what time of day it matter where I am or what time of day it matter where I am or what time of day it is. It's actually an interesting thing is. It's actually an interesting thing is. It's actually an interesting thing because if I'm doing some kind of because if I'm doing some kind of because if I'm doing some kind of session that really requires me to be session that really requires me to be session that really requires me to be absolutely at my best, which I expect of absolutely at my best, which I expect of absolutely at my best, which I expect of myself anytime that I'm out there, there myself anytime that I'm out there, there myself anytime that I'm out there, there is a ritualistic aspect of it, but it's is a ritualistic aspect of it, but it's is a ritualistic aspect of it, but it's also kind of this sense of it doesn't also kind of this sense of it doesn't also kind of this sense of it doesn't matter if room service is open. It matter if room service is open. It matter if room service is open. It doesn't matter any of that kind of doesn't matter any of that kind of doesn't matter any of that kind of stuff, that opening kind of bubble of stuff, that opening kind of bubble of stuff, that opening kind of bubble of the day. And now if it didn't work, I'd the day. And now if it didn't work, I'd the day. And now if it didn't work, I'd still be fine because you always have to still be fine because you always have to still be fine because you always have to be able to like that, you know, if be able to like that, you know, if be able to like that, you know, if something just went ary, you just adapt. something just went ary, you just adapt. something just went ary, you just adapt. But for the most part, you got that But for the most part, you got that But for the most part, you got that opening bubble of the day. And to be opening bubble of the day. And to be opening bubble of the day. And to be able to basically replicate that able to basically replicate that able to basically replicate that >> no matter where I am, no matter what >> no matter where I am, no matter what >> no matter where I am, no matter what time of day, it could be 4:00 a.m. East time of day, it could be 4:00 a.m. East time of day, it could be 4:00 a.m. East Coast time or it could be 7 a.m. Coast time or it could be 7 a.m. Coast time or it could be 7 a.m. California time or wherever. Right. It California time or wherever. Right. It California time or wherever. Right. It replicates that morning bubble. replicates that morning bubble. replicates that morning bubble. >> Yeah. It's like a bootup sequence that >> Yeah. It's like a bootup sequence that >> Yeah. It's like a bootup sequence that you're able to preserve. you're able to preserve. you're able to preserve. >> It is. It's a bootup sequence. That's >> It is. It's a bootup sequence. That's >> It is. It's a bootup sequence. That's exactly what it is. And I don't have to exactly what it is. And I don't have to exactly what it is. And I don't have to control any variables or wonder like are control any variables or wonder like are control any variables or wonder like are they going to have any good coffee or is they going to have any good coffee or is they going to have any good coffee or is it, you know, does room service run on it, you know, does room service run on it, you know, does room service run on time or the room service isn't open at time or the room service isn't open at time or the room service isn't open at 4:30 or whatever. You don't think about 4:30 or whatever. You don't think about 4:30 or whatever. You don't think about any of that stuff. You just move. any of that stuff. You just move. any of that stuff. You just move. >> So the the particular idiosyncrasies, >> So the the particular idiosyncrasies, >> So the the particular idiosyncrasies, eccentricities, I think that's what you eccentricities, I think that's what you eccentricities, I think that's what you say of successful people, right? say of successful people, right? say of successful people, right? >> Yeah. Their own idiosyncratic encodings. >> Yeah. Their own idiosyncratic encodings. >> Yeah. Their own idiosyncratic encodings. Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Yeah. There we go. And we're going to >> Yeah. There we go. And we're going to >> Yeah. There we go. And we're going to really double click on this word in really double click on this word in really double click on this word in codings is endlessly fascinating to me. codings is endlessly fascinating to me. codings is endlessly fascinating to me. I have a few of my own and certainly in I have a few of my own and certainly in I have a few of my own and certainly in what to make of a life which I found what to make of a life which I found what to make of a life which I found very inspiring because at least in your very inspiring because at least in your very inspiring because at least in your cohort and we'll talk about this cohort and we'll talk about this cohort and we'll talk about this >> they did a lot of their best work after >> they did a lot of their best work after >> they did a lot of their best work after 50 after 60 in some cases after 70 and I 50 after 60 in some cases after 70 and I 50 after 60 in some cases after 70 and I am 48 at the moment. So am 48 at the moment. So am 48 at the moment. So >> I found it very reassuring that there >> I found it very reassuring that there >> I found it very reassuring that there were so many case studies. were so many case studies. were so many case studies. >> Oh you're still warming up. I'm still >> Oh you're still warming up. I'm still >> Oh you're still warming up. I'm still warming up which which is very exciting warming up which which is very exciting warming up which which is very exciting on a lot of levels. I did note a few on a lot of levels. I did note a few on a lot of levels. I did note a few things. For instance, things. For instance, things. For instance, >> and I've got lots and lots and lots of >> and I've got lots and lots and lots of >> and I've got lots and lots and lots of notes that I took while reading the notes that I took while reading the notes that I took while reading the book. For instance, Allan Paige, former book. For instance, Allan Paige, former book. For instance, Allan Paige, former NFL player, became very engrossed with NFL player, became very engrossed with NFL player, became very engrossed with running. Woke up every morning at 5:19 running. Woke up every morning at 5:19 running. Woke up every morning at 5:19 a.m. Exactly. Right. 519. And you gave a a.m. Exactly. Right. 519. And you gave a a.m. Exactly. Right. 519. And you gave a list at one point, this is going to be a list at one point, this is going to be a list at one point, this is going to be a pretty odd segue, but you gave a list of pretty odd segue, but you gave a list of pretty odd segue, but you gave a list of some of the, let's call it, side some of the, let's call it, side some of the, let's call it, side passions or eccentricities of different passions or eccentricities of different passions or eccentricities of different people. And one of them, a lot of them people. And one of them, a lot of them people. And one of them, a lot of them were like, okay, okay, sure, I can see were like, okay, okay, sure, I can see were like, okay, okay, sure, I can see that some of my friends do that. And that some of my friends do that. And that some of my friends do that. And then one of them was studying the then one of them was studying the then one of them was studying the occult. occult. occult. >> And I'm just wondering who was who was >> And I'm just wondering who was who was >> And I'm just wondering who was who was the person. You know, if I want to say the person. You know, if I want to say the person. You know, if I want to say who it was, I would have put it in the who it was, I would have put it in the who it was, I would have put it in the book. But that list was really book. But that list was really book. But that list was really interesting because one of the things interesting because one of the things interesting because one of the things that I was very curious about because that I was very curious about because that I was very curious about because our people became really once they our people became really once they our people became really once they really locked on to a big thing for a really locked on to a big thing for a really locked on to a big thing for a given period of their life as you know given period of their life as you know given period of their life as you know from the reading. from the reading. from the reading. >> I mean they were really really really >> I mean they were really really really >> I mean they were really really really focused and the level of intensity and focused and the level of intensity and focused and the level of intensity and energy over years or decades or multiple energy over years or decades or multiple energy over years or decades or multiple decades they put into it. And I was decades they put into it. And I was decades they put into it. And I was really I was just curious though, did really I was just curious though, did really I was just curious though, did they have any room for anything else in they have any room for anything else in they have any room for anything else in their lives or were they just their lives or were they just their lives or were they just monoomaniacally obsessed freaks? Right? monoomaniacally obsessed freaks? Right? monoomaniacally obsessed freaks? Right? And and then I just kind of went through And and then I just kind of went through And and then I just kind of went through just a very simple like okay on that just a very simple like okay on that just a very simple like okay on that particular dimension did they have particular dimension did they have particular dimension did they have really intense side passions of some really intense side passions of some really intense side passions of some kind even if the big thing was over here kind even if the big thing was over here kind even if the big thing was over here and I think I can remember there was and I think I can remember there was and I think I can remember there was something like 80ome percent had some something like 80ome percent had some something like 80ome percent had some kind of an intense side passion and what kind of an intense side passion and what kind of an intense side passion and what I was struck by is the range of them. Oh I was struck by is the range of them. Oh I was struck by is the range of them. Oh my goodness. I mean, disco dancing, they my goodness. I mean, disco dancing, they my goodness. I mean, disco dancing, they the studying the occult, but also like the studying the occult, but also like the studying the occult, but also like teaching Sunday school and running and teaching Sunday school and running and teaching Sunday school and running and mountain climbing and some people were mountain climbing and some people were mountain climbing and some people were really into just hosting interesting really into just hosting interesting really into just hosting interesting dinner parties. Others wouldn't have dinner parties. Others wouldn't have dinner parties. Others wouldn't have been interested in that at all, but they been interested in that at all, but they been interested in that at all, but they had things that absolutely they were had things that absolutely they were had things that absolutely they were incredibly passionate outside of the big incredibly passionate outside of the big incredibly passionate outside of the big thing that they focused on. And I found thing that they focused on. And I found thing that they focused on. And I found that a just an interesting data point that a just an interesting data point that a just an interesting data point that they didn't make a life where they that they didn't make a life where they that they didn't make a life where they had nothing else except the primary had nothing else except the primary had nothing else except the primary arena of their work to focus on. arena of their work to focus on. arena of their work to focus on. >> So let's set the table a little bit and >> So let's set the table a little bit and >> So let's set the table a little bit and I apologize in advance. I know you like I apologize in advance. I know you like I apologize in advance. I know you like to shine the spotlight on other people to shine the spotlight on other people to shine the spotlight on other people and research and data sets, but I'm I'm and research and data sets, but I'm I'm and research and data sets, but I'm I'm probably going to turn the spotlight probably going to turn the spotlight probably going to turn the spotlight back on Jim. back on Jim. back on Jim. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> The bug called Jim. >> The bug called Jim. >> The bug called Jim. >> Oh yeah. That's a call back for people >> Oh yeah. That's a call back for people >> Oh yeah. That's a call back for people that listen to the first conversation. that listen to the first conversation. that listen to the first conversation. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So when we spoke the second conversation >> So when we spoke the second conversation >> So when we spoke the second conversation we had, we had, we had, >> I asked you what was on deck coming up >> I asked you what was on deck coming up >> I asked you what was on deck coming up and you said, "I'm 5 years into research and you said, "I'm 5 years into research and you said, "I'm 5 years into research on self-renewal." And I really like this on self-renewal." And I really like this on self-renewal." And I really like this term self-renewal. Y term self-renewal. Y term self-renewal. Y >> and before we go back to Jim, I guess >> and before we go back to Jim, I guess >> and before we go back to Jim, I guess this is related to Jim, but I'm curious this is related to Jim, but I'm curious this is related to Jim, but I'm curious how you thought about framing this book, how you thought about framing this book, how you thought about framing this book, >> self-renewal versus say the title, what >> self-renewal versus say the title, what >> self-renewal versus say the title, what to make of a life as I'm looking at it. to make of a life as I'm looking at it. to make of a life as I'm looking at it. How did you think about How did you think about How did you think about >> presenting this? And then if you >> presenting this? And then if you >> presenting this? And then if you wouldn't mind because we were chatting wouldn't mind because we were chatting wouldn't mind because we were chatting before we pressed record. I think my our before we pressed record. I think my our before we pressed record. I think my our first conversation was your first long first conversation was your first long first conversation was your first long form podcast. Yeah. And I believe this form podcast. Yeah. And I believe this form podcast. Yeah. And I believe this will hopefully be the first conversation will hopefully be the first conversation will hopefully be the first conversation about the new book that comes out. Just about the new book that comes out. Just about the new book that comes out. Just giving a little bit of context or giving a little bit of context or giving a little bit of context or genesis on on how you wrote it. So you genesis on on how you wrote it. So you genesis on on how you wrote it. So you can tackle it in any direction you like. can tackle it in any direction you like. can tackle it in any direction you like. In my 30s, I came across a a remarkable In my 30s, I came across a a remarkable In my 30s, I came across a a remarkable man, a w one of the many sages I've I've man, a w one of the many sages I've I've man, a w one of the many sages I've I've had the joy to be affected by in my life had the joy to be affected by in my life had the joy to be affected by in my life of John W. gardener who was kind of a of John W. gardener who was kind of a of John W. gardener who was kind of a wise man in residence at Stamford wise man in residence at Stamford wise man in residence at Stamford Business School Business School Business School ameritus at that point just down the ameritus at that point just down the ameritus at that point just down the hall from me when I was teaching there hall from me when I was teaching there hall from me when I was teaching there and he'd written a great book a little and he'd written a great book a little and he'd written a great book a little book back a number of years ago on book back a number of years ago on book back a number of years ago on self-renewal and I was very interested self-renewal and I was very interested self-renewal and I was very interested in the question of I don't know why I in the question of I don't know why I in the question of I don't know why I was interested but I was just interested was interested but I was just interested was interested but I was just interested in why would some entities or some in why would some entities or some in why would some entities or some people people people have a life of continuous self-renewal have a life of continuous self-renewal have a life of continuous self-renewal rather than a a life of this followed by rather than a a life of this followed by rather than a a life of this followed by you know just kind of a long degradation you know just kind of a long degradation you know just kind of a long degradation >> peak and then a decline. >> peak and then a decline. >> peak and then a decline. >> Exactly. And John encouraged me to >> Exactly. And John encouraged me to >> Exactly. And John encouraged me to consider doing eventually some research consider doing eventually some research consider doing eventually some research on the question of self-renewal and I on the question of self-renewal and I on the question of self-renewal and I was off working on built to last and was off working on built to last and was off working on built to last and good to great and I was working on my good to great and I was working on my good to great and I was working on my company research but I still have my company research but I still have my company research but I still have my notes from long conversations with John notes from long conversations with John notes from long conversations with John about how you might think about about how you might think about about how you might think about self-renewal and so that seed had sort self-renewal and so that seed had sort self-renewal and so that seed had sort of been in there and it was justating of been in there and it was justating of been in there and it was justating and I thought someday I might return to and I thought someday I might return to and I thought someday I might return to that. Then what happened is I started that. Then what happened is I started that. Then what happened is I started thinking that that question was always thinking that that question was always thinking that that question was always there like how would you actually study there like how would you actually study there like how would you actually study it and and then it and and then it and and then a seed got activated that had been a seed got activated that had been a seed got activated that had been planted back a decade before that in my planted back a decade before that in my planted back a decade before that in my 20s. 20s. 20s. >> Joanne who you know is so central in my >> Joanne who you know is so central in my >> Joanne who you know is so central in my life. We've been married 45 years and life. We've been married 45 years and life. We've been married 45 years and Joanne was a world-class athlete. She Joanne was a world-class athlete. She Joanne was a world-class athlete. She was world champion in the Iron Man. She was world champion in the Iron Man. She was world champion in the Iron Man. She was the first female figure in the was the first female figure in the was the first female figure in the original Nike just do it campaigns back original Nike just do it campaigns back original Nike just do it campaigns back in the 1980 with Bo Jackson and Howie in the 1980 with Bo Jackson and Howie in the 1980 with Bo Jackson and Howie Howie Long and she was really Howie Long and she was really Howie Long and she was really constructed to compete and that sense of constructed to compete and that sense of constructed to compete and that sense of we talk about when we'll talk later we talk about when we'll talk later we talk about when we'll talk later about this being encoded for something about this being encoded for something about this being encoded for something there's just some athletes that they there's just some athletes that they there's just some athletes that they need to win it's a need they need to win need to win it's a need they need to win need to win it's a need they need to win >> and that was Joanne when she came when >> and that was Joanne when she came when >> and that was Joanne when she came when she gave up all these other she gave up all these other she gave up all these other opportunities she had in life to focus opportunities she had in life to focus opportunities she had in life to focus on ultimately trying to win the Iron Man on ultimately trying to win the Iron Man on ultimately trying to win the Iron Man and went in on that. It's like and went in on that. It's like and went in on that. It's like everything came together and we go off everything came together and we go off everything came together and we go off to Hawaii and she raced in ' 84, 85,86 to Hawaii and she raced in ' 84, 85,86 to Hawaii and she raced in ' 84, 85,86 and 85 she won the world championship in and 85 she won the world championship in and 85 she won the world championship in Hawaii and there was a backstory to that Hawaii and there was a backstory to that Hawaii and there was a backstory to that race which is that Joanne had a race which is that Joanne had a race which is that Joanne had a hamstring injury and that hamstring hamstring injury and that hamstring hamstring injury and that hamstring injury just was chronic and it wouldn't injury just was chronic and it wouldn't injury just was chronic and it wouldn't really go away. And in the race it began really go away. And in the race it began really go away. And in the race it began to catch up with her. So, she had this to catch up with her. So, she had this to catch up with her. So, she had this 10-minute lead with 10 miles to go in 10-minute lead with 10 miles to go in 10-minute lead with 10 miles to go in the marathon. As you know, it's 2.4 mile the marathon. As you know, it's 2.4 mile the marathon. As you know, it's 2.4 mile swim, 112 mile bike ride, and 26.2 mile swim, 112 mile bike ride, and 26.2 mile swim, 112 mile bike ride, and 26.2 mile marathon in sort of 90° temperatures and marathon in sort of 90° temperatures and marathon in sort of 90° temperatures and 80 some% humidity on the lava fields. I 80 some% humidity on the lava fields. I 80 some% humidity on the lava fields. I mean, it's just horrendous out there. mean, it's just horrendous out there. mean, it's just horrendous out there. And she had a good swim and a great And she had a good swim and a great And she had a good swim and a great bike, and she had this 10-minute lead bike, and she had this 10-minute lead bike, and she had this 10-minute lead with just 10 miles to go coming back with just 10 miles to go coming back with just 10 miles to go coming back into town. and the hamstring caught up into town. and the hamstring caught up into town. and the hamstring caught up with her partly because it did limited with her partly because it did limited with her partly because it did limited her training and and you know that was her training and and you know that was her training and and you know that was always there and she began to lose a always there and she began to lose a always there and she began to lose a minute at a mile and I remember watching minute at a mile and I remember watching minute at a mile and I remember watching the ABC feed cuz the wet will the sports the ABC feed cuz the wet will the sports the ABC feed cuz the wet will the sports truck was in front of her and I could truck was in front of her and I could truck was in front of her and I could sort of see the race unfolding. I could sort of see the race unfolding. I could sort of see the race unfolding. I could watch it in real time with the camera of watch it in real time with the camera of watch it in real time with the camera of the truck right in front of her and you the truck right in front of her and you the truck right in front of her and you could see her starting to lose time like could see her starting to lose time like could see her starting to lose time like she's a you know 9 minute lead, 8 minute she's a you know 9 minute lead, 8 minute she's a you know 9 minute lead, 8 minute lead, 7 minute lead, 6 minute lead like lead, 7 minute lead, 6 minute lead like lead, 7 minute lead, 6 minute lead like and you're getting closer and closer to and you're getting closer and closer to and you're getting closer and closer to the end but is she going to get there the end but is she going to get there the end but is she going to get there before somebody else does and there is before somebody else does and there is before somebody else does and there is this moment I mean I'll never forget the this moment I mean I'll never forget the this moment I mean I'll never forget the moment where she stops in the middle of moment where she stops in the middle of moment where she stops in the middle of the lava fields and she has this the lava fields and she has this the lava fields and she has this extraordinary discomfort and pain and extraordinary discomfort and pain and extraordinary discomfort and pain and she's looking at her legs hoping they she's looking at her legs hoping they she's looking at her legs hoping they would move. And she reaches down and she would move. And she reaches down and she would move. And she reaches down and she sort of massages them and she kind of sort of massages them and she kind of sort of massages them and she kind of like pounds on her quadriceps and she like pounds on her quadriceps and she like pounds on her quadriceps and she looks up to the sky and it almost looked looks up to the sky and it almost looked looks up to the sky and it almost looked like she was pleading with somebody to like she was pleading with somebody to like she was pleading with somebody to help her somehow. help her somehow. help her somehow. And then she just kind of fixed her gaze And then she just kind of fixed her gaze And then she just kind of fixed her gaze on the horizon and there was this sort on the horizon and there was this sort on the horizon and there was this sort of stoic of stoic of stoic countenance that came over and she just countenance that came over and she just countenance that came over and she just like started to move and then she like started to move and then she like started to move and then she started to run and she ended up winning started to run and she ended up winning started to run and she ended up winning a 10-hour plus race by about 90 seconds. a 10-hour plus race by about 90 seconds. a 10-hour plus race by about 90 seconds. And it's like one of those things in And it's like one of those things in And it's like one of those things in life like you have very few experiences life like you have very few experiences life like you have very few experiences like that. like that. like that. And then when we got back to Palo Alto And then when we got back to Palo Alto And then when we got back to Palo Alto where we lived at the time, you know, where we lived at the time, you know, where we lived at the time, you know, the hamstring just didn't heal. the hamstring just didn't heal. the hamstring just didn't heal. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And she tried everything. Surgery, >> And she tried everything. Surgery, >> And she tried everything. Surgery, physical therapy, rest, stretching, you physical therapy, rest, stretching, you physical therapy, rest, stretching, you name it. name it. name it. And eventually she just had to confront And eventually she just had to confront And eventually she just had to confront the brutal fact that her athletic career the brutal fact that her athletic career the brutal fact that her athletic career was going to end at her peak. was going to end at her peak. was going to end at her peak. And we were sitting there in a little And we were sitting there in a little And we were sitting there in a little townhouse in Palo Alto. We're sitting at townhouse in Palo Alto. We're sitting at townhouse in Palo Alto. We're sitting at our kitchen table and Joanne just one our kitchen table and Joanne just one our kitchen table and Joanne just one day she gasps out to me and it was just day she gasps out to me and it was just day she gasps out to me and it was just one of those moments. It's just like one of those moments. It's just like one of those moments. It's just like etched in my emotional memory. She just etched in my emotional memory. She just etched in my emotional memory. She just gasps, gasps, gasps, I feel like I'm dying. And I had no I feel like I'm dying. And I had no I feel like I'm dying. And I had no answer. It's not like you can solve that answer. It's not like you can solve that answer. It's not like you can solve that or anything like that. It's just I feel or anything like that. It's just I feel or anything like that. It's just I feel like I'm dying. like I'm dying. like I'm dying. And it and in a sense she was right And it and in a sense she was right And it and in a sense she was right because that identity as as a world because that identity as as a world because that identity as as a world champion athlete, this thing that she champion athlete, this thing that she champion athlete, this thing that she was so encoded for, that she so was so encoded for, that she so was so encoded for, that she so loved doing was being taken away from loved doing was being taken away from loved doing was being taken away from her. And in a sense, it was dying, a her. And in a sense, it was dying, a her. And in a sense, it was dying, a certain kind of dying. And that seed certain kind of dying. And that seed certain kind of dying. And that seed somehow mixed with the John Gardner somehow mixed with the John Gardner somehow mixed with the John Gardner thing because what happened is thing because what happened is thing because what happened is I somehow sort of fused these together I somehow sort of fused these together I somehow sort of fused these together in my mind. I think that actually in my mind. I think that actually in my mind. I think that actually Joann's experience is what gave me the Joann's experience is what gave me the Joann's experience is what gave me the original interest in self-renewal original interest in self-renewal original interest in self-renewal because I just didn't have the language because I just didn't have the language because I just didn't have the language for it. I didn't really see the for it. I didn't really see the for it. I didn't really see the connection so clearly. It was kind of connection so clearly. It was kind of connection so clearly. It was kind of murky. But I think they fused together. murky. But I think they fused together. murky. But I think they fused together. And I realized that one way to study And I realized that one way to study And I realized that one way to study self-renewal self-renewal self-renewal would be to look at people who go would be to look at people who go would be to look at people who go through what in the book we call cliff through what in the book we call cliff through what in the book we call cliff events. These times in life where life events. These times in life where life events. These times in life where life in some really significant way changes in some really significant way changes in some really significant way changes under your feet. Either you choose it to under your feet. Either you choose it to under your feet. Either you choose it to change or or it happens to you. But change or or it happens to you. But change or or it happens to you. But there's kind of a before and an after there's kind of a before and an after there's kind of a before and an after and and and your life is so changed at and and and your life is so changed at and and and your life is so changed at that time that you have to really that time that you have to really that time that you have to really reorient and reconsider. And sometimes reorient and reconsider. And sometimes reorient and reconsider. And sometimes those cliffs like Joann's are really those cliffs like Joann's are really those cliffs like Joann's are really monumental moments in life. They are monumental moments in life. They are monumental moments in life. They are real cliff events. And I thought if I real cliff events. And I thought if I real cliff events. And I thought if I could find people, if I could study could find people, if I could study could find people, if I could study people at the cliff and I could study people at the cliff and I could study people at the cliff and I could study their lives up to the cliff, through the their lives up to the cliff, through the their lives up to the cliff, through the cliff and after the cliff and how they cliff and after the cliff and how they cliff and after the cliff and how they come out and how they how they kind of come out and how they how they kind of come out and how they how they kind of constructed life after that, I would be constructed life after that, I would be constructed life after that, I would be able to have a method for understanding able to have a method for understanding able to have a method for understanding this thing that I used to sort of think this thing that I used to sort of think this thing that I used to sort of think of as about self-renewal. of as about self-renewal. of as about self-renewal. And so I just need to fill in a couple And so I just need to fill in a couple And so I just need to fill in a couple other pieces cuz yeah sort of the other pieces cuz yeah sort of the other pieces cuz yeah sort of the creative journey of how I got here. But creative journey of how I got here. But creative journey of how I got here. But then as you know I always like pairs. I then as you know I always like pairs. I then as you know I always like pairs. I like to have two entities in the same like to have two entities in the same like to have two entities in the same situation to kind of set next to each situation to kind of set next to each situation to kind of set next to each other. I did that in all my prior works. other. I did that in all my prior works. other. I did that in all my prior works. And so the idea was wow what if you And so the idea was wow what if you And so the idea was wow what if you could find pairs of people that were at could find pairs of people that were at could find pairs of people that were at the same cliff and their lives were the same cliff and their lives were the same cliff and their lives were really similar up to that cliff. And really similar up to that cliff. And really similar up to that cliff. And then you look at how their lives, how then you look at how their lives, how then you look at how their lives, how they come under the cliff, through the they come under the cliff, through the they come under the cliff, through the cliff and out of the cliff. And then by cliff and out of the cliff. And then by cliff and out of the cliff. And then by looking at that, I would understand this looking at that, I would understand this looking at that, I would understand this process of renewal out here through this process of renewal out here through this process of renewal out here through this methodology. And so that's when I methodology. And so that's when I methodology. And so that's when I started the whole journey. Now let's started the whole journey. Now let's started the whole journey. Now let's just zoom way out. As I got into it and just zoom way out. As I got into it and just zoom way out. As I got into it and I really began I I selected my I had my I really began I I selected my I had my I really began I I selected my I had my match pairs. I had my my people had gone match pairs. I had my my people had gone match pairs. I had my my people had gone through these cliffs. I was studying through these cliffs. I was studying through these cliffs. I was studying their whole lives. It was overwhelming their whole lives. It was overwhelming their whole lives. It was overwhelming in scale. this project. I honestly in scale. this project. I honestly in scale. this project. I honestly thought at times I might never be able thought at times I might never be able thought at times I might never be able to finish it because it was just so to finish it because it was just so to finish it because it was just so monstrously big. But it began to dawn on monstrously big. But it began to dawn on monstrously big. But it began to dawn on me the more I worked on it because I was me the more I worked on it because I was me the more I worked on it because I was looking at you couldn't understand this looking at you couldn't understand this looking at you couldn't understand this cliff out thing if you didn't understand cliff out thing if you didn't understand cliff out thing if you didn't understand the whole life. And so I had to study, the whole life. And so I had to study, the whole life. And so I had to study, you know, from their entire lives, you know, from their entire lives, you know, from their entire lives, right? And most of them are deceased. a right? And most of them are deceased. a right? And most of them are deceased. a few were in their 80s, you know, but but few were in their 80s, you know, but but few were in their 80s, you know, but but basically I I had the the record of basically I I had the the record of basically I I had the the record of their lives pretty much intact. And all their lives pretty much intact. And all their lives pretty much intact. And all of a sudden, I began to realize two of a sudden, I began to realize two of a sudden, I began to realize two things. First of all, none of them things. First of all, none of them things. First of all, none of them thought about self-renewal as like an thought about self-renewal as like an thought about self-renewal as like an objective. And rather what I really saw objective. And rather what I really saw objective. And rather what I really saw were people who achieved what I might were people who achieved what I might were people who achieved what I might call self-renewal, but that's kind of call self-renewal, but that's kind of call self-renewal, but that's kind of not what they were doing. They were not what they were doing. They were not what they were doing. They were leading their lives. And they were leading their lives. And they were leading their lives. And they were leading their lives through these cliff leading their lives through these cliff leading their lives through these cliff events and in between the cliff events. events and in between the cliff events. events and in between the cliff events. and somehow all the way through to the and somehow all the way through to the and somehow all the way through to the end for the ones that had passed away. end for the ones that had passed away. end for the ones that had passed away. And I began to realize that what I had And I began to realize that what I had And I began to realize that what I had was a huge and rich data source for was a huge and rich data source for was a huge and rich data source for really the big question. And and just really the big question. And and just really the big question. And and just just so that you kind of grasp this, just so that you kind of grasp this, just so that you kind of grasp this, this has happened to me multiple times. this has happened to me multiple times. this has happened to me multiple times. back and built to last which was about back and built to last which was about back and built to last which was about visionary companies and enduring great visionary companies and enduring great visionary companies and enduring great companies and all that. Jerry Poris and companies and all that. Jerry Poris and companies and all that. Jerry Poris and I set out our original question was to I set out our original question was to I set out our original question was to study the concept of corporate vision study the concept of corporate vision study the concept of corporate vision because it was sort of what would that because it was sort of what would that because it was sort of what would that be was back before it was something that be was back before it was something that be was back before it was something that anybody had ever studied. And then our anybody had ever studied. And then our anybody had ever studied. And then our method of match pairs of these visionary method of match pairs of these visionary method of match pairs of these visionary companies over long periods of history companies over long periods of history companies over long periods of history led to a much bigger question which was led to a much bigger question which was led to a much bigger question which was how do you build an enduring great how do you build an enduring great how do you build an enduring great visionary company which is very visionary company which is very visionary company which is very different than the smaller question of different than the smaller question of different than the smaller question of what is corporate vision and how does what is corporate vision and how does what is corporate vision and how does that work and so repeatedly in my that work and so repeatedly in my that work and so repeatedly in my journey I've started out with what I journey I've started out with what I journey I've started out with what I think is the question self-renewal think is the question self-renewal think is the question self-renewal corporate vision whatever and I've ended corporate vision whatever and I've ended corporate vision whatever and I've ended up with the method leading me to a much up with the method leading me to a much up with the method leading me to a much bigger question that the method answers. bigger question that the method answers. bigger question that the method answers. And so in this case, all of a sudden, as And so in this case, all of a sudden, as And so in this case, all of a sudden, as I got deeper and deeper into it, I I got deeper and deeper into it, I I got deeper and deeper into it, I realized I'm not studying self-renewal. realized I'm not studying self-renewal. realized I'm not studying self-renewal. Self-renewal is a residual artifact of Self-renewal is a residual artifact of Self-renewal is a residual artifact of really the big question. And the big really the big question. And the big really the big question. And the big question is the title of the book, which question is the title of the book, which question is the title of the book, which is the question we all face with, which is the question we all face with, which is the question we all face with, which is what to make of a life. And we face is what to make of a life. And we face is what to make of a life. And we face that question when we're young. You and that question when we're young. You and that question when we're young. You and I faced it coming out of the fog of I faced it coming out of the fog of I faced it coming out of the fog of youth. And what I came to grasp is that youth. And what I came to grasp is that youth. And what I came to grasp is that cliffs are an amazing way to look at the cliffs are an amazing way to look at the cliffs are an amazing way to look at the question of wrestling with what to make question of wrestling with what to make question of wrestling with what to make of a life. Because of a life. Because of a life. Because when you have a big enough cliff, like when you have a big enough cliff, like when you have a big enough cliff, like Joannne's cliff, like the cliffs in the Joannne's cliff, like the cliffs in the Joannne's cliff, like the cliffs in the study, you have to answer the question study, you have to answer the question study, you have to answer the question again, again, again, right? Partway through your life, when right? Partway through your life, when right? Partway through your life, when you have one of a a big enough cliff, you have one of a a big enough cliff, you have one of a a big enough cliff, you have to answer the question, well, you have to answer the question, well, you have to answer the question, well, well, now what to make of a life? well, now what to make of a life? well, now what to make of a life? because all that's done or all that's because all that's done or all that's because all that's done or all that's changed. And then I realized there's a changed. And then I realized there's a changed. And then I realized there's a third time which is when you're in the third time which is when you're in the third time which is when you're in the later decades of life and many never get later decades of life and many never get later decades of life and many never get around to answering this question and I around to answering this question and I around to answering this question and I hope they will after reading this is hope they will after reading this is hope they will after reading this is well now what to make of a life so that well now what to make of a life so that well now what to make of a life so that my 50s 60s7s 80s maybe my 90s turn out my 50s 60s7s 80s maybe my 90s turn out my 50s 60s7s 80s maybe my 90s turn out to be my biggest most creative most to be my biggest most creative most to be my biggest most creative most impactful most interesting years rather impactful most interesting years rather impactful most interesting years rather than sitting over here in inferiority to than sitting over here in inferiority to than sitting over here in inferiority to my younger years. And so I essentially my younger years. And so I essentially my younger years. And so I essentially it's very similar to what happened with it's very similar to what happened with it's very similar to what happened with Bill to last with good to great Bill to last with good to great Bill to last with good to great whatever. I started with a narrower whatever. I started with a narrower whatever. I started with a narrower question. I came up with a method to question. I came up with a method to question. I came up with a method to answer it and then realized that that answer it and then realized that that answer it and then realized that that method was actually answering a big method was actually answering a big method was actually answering a big question question question >> bigger question >> bigger question >> bigger question >> and then I just gave myself over to that >> and then I just gave myself over to that >> and then I just gave myself over to that question and that's how I ended up question and that's how I ended up question and that's how I ended up really framing the whole book. And then really framing the whole book. And then really framing the whole book. And then as you know, and we'll probably get into as you know, and we'll probably get into as you know, and we'll probably get into this, the seeds of that go all the way this, the seeds of that go all the way this, the seeds of that go all the way back to a shattered kid, right? Trying back to a shattered kid, right? Trying back to a shattered kid, right? Trying to figure out life. That is really kind to figure out life. That is really kind to figure out life. That is really kind of the creative journey. And when you of the creative journey. And when you of the creative journey. And when you get the book, it feels like God, it's so get the book, it feels like God, it's so get the book, it feels like God, it's so it's almost like clearly linear, but you it's almost like clearly linear, but you it's almost like clearly linear, but you write that way because you want it to write that way because you want it to write that way because you want it to hang together conceptually, hang together conceptually, hang together conceptually, but the creative journey of how you get but the creative journey of how you get but the creative journey of how you get there is wonderfully dynamic. Well, a there is wonderfully dynamic. Well, a there is wonderfully dynamic. Well, a few things. So, we are going to get to few things. So, we are going to get to few things. So, we are going to get to childhood for sure, probably sooner childhood for sure, probably sooner childhood for sure, probably sooner rather than later. And separately, as I rather than later. And separately, as I rather than later. And separately, as I was reading this book, particularly was reading this book, particularly was reading this book, particularly given the end of our second given the end of our second given the end of our second conversation, I was really cheering for conversation, I was really cheering for conversation, I was really cheering for you because I am in the middle of a fog you because I am in the middle of a fog you because I am in the middle of a fog with a draft that is 850 pages long. And with a draft that is 850 pages long. And with a draft that is 850 pages long. And I won't get into that, but I was like, I won't get into that, but I was like, I won't get into that, but I was like, "Oh, so there can be light at the end of "Oh, so there can be light at the end of "Oh, so there can be light at the end of the tunnel because honestly, I'm looking the tunnel because honestly, I'm looking the tunnel because honestly, I'm looking at this thing and I'm like, this rock at this thing and I'm like, this rock at this thing and I'm like, this rock just seems to get denser and denser. It just seems to get denser and denser. It just seems to get denser and denser. It gets harder and harder to chip away at gets harder and harder to chip away at gets harder and harder to chip away at it." So, congratulations. and I was also it." So, congratulations. and I was also it." So, congratulations. and I was also very helpful as moral support to very helpful as moral support to very helpful as moral support to >> me. >> me. >> me. >> So are you in the fog on the book itself >> So are you in the fog on the book itself >> So are you in the fog on the book itself or in a general Tim wandering in the fog or in a general Tim wandering in the fog or in a general Tim wandering in the fog time? So I am I would say time? So I am I would say time? So I am I would say in the inverse of where I've found in the inverse of where I've found in the inverse of where I've found myself typically before and what I mean myself typically before and what I mean myself typically before and what I mean by that is before by that is before by that is before >> I would say I have had a lot of clarity >> I would say I have had a lot of clarity >> I would say I have had a lot of clarity around specific projects. Here is the around specific projects. Here is the around specific projects. Here is the book in front of me. Here is the podcast book in front of me. Here is the podcast book in front of me. Here is the podcast I am building. Here is the I am building. Here is the I am building. Here is the fill-in-theblank business project where fill-in-theblank business project where fill-in-theblank business project where I would have extreme clarity. I would have extreme clarity. I would have extreme clarity. >> Yep. And then in contrast to that I >> Yep. And then in contrast to that I >> Yep. And then in contrast to that I would say broadly for life direction I would say broadly for life direction I would say broadly for life direction I would feel like I had less clarity right would feel like I had less clarity right would feel like I had less clarity right now and I I am quite content with this now and I I am quite content with this now and I I am quite content with this for the time being. I have the flip side for the time being. I have the flip side for the time being. I have the flip side which is I'm with a wonderful partner. which is I'm with a wonderful partner. which is I'm with a wonderful partner. We are very clear on where we're headed We are very clear on where we're headed We are very clear on where we're headed together together together >> and I feel like that is the Archimedes >> and I feel like that is the Archimedes >> and I feel like that is the Archimedes lever for everything else. I don't feel lever for everything else. I don't feel lever for everything else. I don't feel like I have much to prove anymore from a like I have much to prove anymore from a like I have much to prove anymore from a professional perspective, but I do also professional perspective, but I do also professional perspective, but I do also want to end up where you are in the want to end up where you are in the want to end up where you are in the sense of feeling like you have or in sense of feeling like you have or in sense of feeling like you have or in fact having more energy, more fire fact having more energy, more fire fact having more energy, more fire within you at 67 and 37, I do want that. within you at 67 and 37, I do want that. within you at 67 and 37, I do want that. But on a project level, I have much less But on a project level, I have much less But on a project level, I have much less clarity clarity clarity >> in terms of what does Tim 3.0 4.0 look >> in terms of what does Tim 3.0 4.0 look >> in terms of what does Tim 3.0 4.0 look like? because I do love the podcast. I like? because I do love the podcast. I like? because I do love the podcast. I plan to continue doing it, but it's also plan to continue doing it, but it's also plan to continue doing it, but it's also become one of the most saturated, become one of the most saturated, become one of the most saturated, noisefilled playing fields imaginable. noisefilled playing fields imaginable. noisefilled playing fields imaginable. And I think anyone who expects the same And I think anyone who expects the same And I think anyone who expects the same music to play forever music to play forever music to play forever probably does not anticipate the probably does not anticipate the probably does not anticipate the inevitable, which is probably a cliff of inevitable, which is probably a cliff of inevitable, which is probably a cliff of some type. Right? So, I have a fog as it some type. Right? So, I have a fog as it some type. Right? So, I have a fog as it stands currently around a few things. stands currently around a few things. stands currently around a few things. One of which would be writing. M so for One of which would be writing. M so for One of which would be writing. M so for instance this 850 page behemoth do I instance this 850 page behemoth do I instance this 850 page behemoth do I chip away at that which I find a little chip away at that which I find a little chip away at that which I find a little bit draining to be honest. So, I've bit draining to be honest. So, I've bit draining to be honest. So, I've actually put it on the back burner, or actually put it on the back burner, or actually put it on the back burner, or do I say focus on a newer writing do I say focus on a newer writing do I say focus on a newer writing project that I'm very, very excited project that I'm very, very excited project that I'm very, very excited about. And is that in fact leaning into about. And is that in fact leaning into about. And is that in fact leaning into my encodings, which is a term we should my encodings, which is a term we should my encodings, which is a term we should probably define, or is it just the probably define, or is it just the probably define, or is it just the allure of the novelty of the new? And allure of the novelty of the new? And allure of the novelty of the new? And guess what? Surprise, surprise, as soon guess what? Surprise, surprise, as soon guess what? Surprise, surprise, as soon as I get into the mud, I'm going to as I get into the mud, I'm going to as I get into the mud, I'm going to still be paying the taxes that you need still be paying the taxes that you need still be paying the taxes that you need to be prepared to pay. So that is a bit to be prepared to pay. So that is a bit to be prepared to pay. So that is a bit of a of a of a crossroads at which I find myself right crossroads at which I find myself right crossroads at which I find myself right now. now. now. >> My question for you is so first of all >> My question for you is so first of all >> My question for you is so first of all just for anyone who's listening to this, just for anyone who's listening to this, just for anyone who's listening to this, we're using the term fog and I'm just we're using the term fog and I'm just we're using the term fog and I'm just going to put a quick context on that and going to put a quick context on that and going to put a quick context on that and then ask a question then ask a question then ask a question >> and so we just talked about the notion >> and so we just talked about the notion >> and so we just talked about the notion of cliffs and as you you know the whole of cliffs and as you you know the whole of cliffs and as you you know the whole study structure was around cliffs and so study structure was around cliffs and so study structure was around cliffs and so forth and and so I I knew cliffs would forth and and so I I knew cliffs would forth and and so I I knew cliffs would play a critical role in how I look at play a critical role in how I look at play a critical role in how I look at things. I was really overwhelmed with things. I was really overwhelmed with things. I was really overwhelmed with the prevalence of fog in the lives that the prevalence of fog in the lives that the prevalence of fog in the lives that we studied. That was not something I we studied. That was not something I we studied. That was not something I expected to find. And fog are these expected to find. And fog are these expected to find. And fog are these periods of time where you're kind of periods of time where you're kind of periods of time where you're kind of either in some portion of your life or either in some portion of your life or either in some portion of your life or maybe overall in life at a given point maybe overall in life at a given point maybe overall in life at a given point where you're lost, confused, befuddled, where you're lost, confused, befuddled, where you're lost, confused, befuddled, disoriented, uncertain, right? And disoriented, uncertain, right? And disoriented, uncertain, right? And there's kind of these clarity phases of there's kind of these clarity phases of there's kind of these clarity phases of life. Like I'm in a clarity phase right life. Like I'm in a clarity phase right life. Like I'm in a clarity phase right now. I was in a fog phase about 2013 now. I was in a fog phase about 2013 now. I was in a fog phase about 2013 2014 certainly in a fog in my 20s. 2014 certainly in a fog in my 20s. 2014 certainly in a fog in my 20s. There's kind of fog phases and these There's kind of fog phases and these There's kind of fog phases and these clarity phases and every person in our clarity phases and every person in our clarity phases and every person in our study had these sometimes even extended study had these sometimes even extended study had these sometimes even extended episodes of of fog which I found very episodes of of fog which I found very episodes of of fog which I found very comforting in the end because the people comforting in the end because the people comforting in the end because the people we studied had remarkable lives when you we studied had remarkable lives when you we studied had remarkable lives when you summed up the entire thing but they summed up the entire thing but they summed up the entire thing but they could lose a decade in the fog along the could lose a decade in the fog along the could lose a decade in the fog along the way. And then in the wake of cliffs in way. And then in the wake of cliffs in way. And then in the wake of cliffs in particular, particular, particular, there seems to almost always be fog. So there seems to almost always be fog. So there seems to almost always be fog. So fog can come at any time for a variety fog can come at any time for a variety fog can come at any time for a variety of reasons, but the likelihood of fog of reasons, but the likelihood of fog of reasons, but the likelihood of fog will follow a cliff based on what we will follow a cliff based on what we will follow a cliff based on what we looked at in the study is that if you looked at in the study is that if you looked at in the study is that if you have a big enough cliff, especially if have a big enough cliff, especially if have a big enough cliff, especially if it was unexpected, the fog is likely to it was unexpected, the fog is likely to it was unexpected, the fog is likely to roll in and can be very thick and very roll in and can be very thick and very roll in and can be very thick and very befuddling. So that's why we're talking befuddling. So that's why we're talking befuddling. So that's why we're talking about fog. So my question for you is I'm about fog. So my question for you is I'm about fog. So my question for you is I'm curious as you are wandering around a curious as you are wandering around a curious as you are wandering around a little bit in the fog and I think it's a little bit in the fog and I think it's a little bit in the fog and I think it's a very interesting time as you describe it very interesting time as you describe it very interesting time as you describe it of kind of well this question of the of kind of well this question of the of kind of well this question of the things that you'd done up to this point. things that you'd done up to this point. things that you'd done up to this point. Are you ready to be done with them? Are Are you ready to be done with them? Are Are you ready to be done with them? Are you are you ready to extend out in a you are you ready to extend out in a you are you ready to extend out in a different direction? different direction? different direction? All these sorts of questions that are All these sorts of questions that are All these sorts of questions that are swirling about. I'm curious if anything swirling about. I'm curious if anything swirling about. I'm curious if anything in the book as you read it illuminated in the book as you read it illuminated in the book as you read it illuminated for you or got you thinking about for you or got you thinking about for you or got you thinking about navigating through this fog. navigating through this fog. navigating through this fog. >> I would hope so. I took a lot of notes. >> I would hope so. I took a lot of notes. >> I would hope so. I took a lot of notes. So, either I'm a very bad notetaker or So, either I'm a very bad notetaker or So, either I'm a very bad notetaker or there are things for me to focus on from there are things for me to focus on from there are things for me to focus on from the book. So, I would say a number of the book. So, I would say a number of the book. So, I would say a number of things come to mind and I I could send things come to mind and I I could send things come to mind and I I could send you photographs of these if if you're you photographs of these if if you're you photographs of these if if you're curious at some point. Yeah. But in curious at some point. Yeah. But in curious at some point. Yeah. But in terms of navigating fog, I think the terms of navigating fog, I think the terms of navigating fog, I think the first is first is first is rule number one, don't freak out. So, rule number one, don't freak out. So, rule number one, don't freak out. So, and that was more of an interpretation and that was more of an interpretation and that was more of an interpretation than something you said literally. But than something you said literally. But than something you said literally. But in effect, like, hey, if you're in the in effect, like, hey, if you're in the in effect, like, hey, if you're in the fog, guess what? Everybody ends up in fog, guess what? Everybody ends up in fog, guess what? Everybody ends up in the fog. the fog. the fog. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> So, don't panic, number one. And then >> So, don't panic, number one. And then >> So, don't panic, number one. And then there were a few there were more than a there were a few there were more than a there were a few there were more than a few things but certainly a few things few things but certainly a few things few things but certainly a few things that I found helpful and also a few that I found helpful and also a few that I found helpful and also a few things that gave me terminology for some things that gave me terminology for some things that gave me terminology for some explanatory power of things that have explanatory power of things that have explanatory power of things that have happened to me in the past or things happened to me in the past or things happened to me in the past or things that I've done in the past and we'll that I've done in the past and we'll that I've done in the past and we'll we'll definitely talk about this but the we'll definitely talk about this but the we'll definitely talk about this but the concept of return on luck and different concept of return on luck and different concept of return on luck and different types of luck I found very compelling types of luck I found very compelling types of luck I found very compelling >> and thinking of how you take advantage >> and thinking of how you take advantage >> and thinking of how you take advantage of or widen the aperture on luck because of or widen the aperture on luck because of or widen the aperture on luck because I I think broadly speaking luck is I I think broadly speaking luck is I I think broadly speaking luck is thrown around as something you either thrown around as something you either thrown around as something you either have or you don't have or you don't have or you don't >> and it lands on you and exerts its force >> and it lands on you and exerts its force >> and it lands on you and exerts its force but it's not quite that simple and I but it's not quite that simple and I but it's not quite that simple and I think you put words to that that I found think you put words to that that I found think you put words to that that I found very helpful and then in terms of very helpful and then in terms of very helpful and then in terms of navigating the fog I would say you navigating the fog I would say you navigating the fog I would say you talked about simplex stepping which I talked about simplex stepping which I talked about simplex stepping which I think we may spend some time on but I think we may spend some time on but I think we may spend some time on but I have I think upstream kind of cascading have I think upstream kind of cascading have I think upstream kind of cascading questions that I want to ask you about questions that I want to ask you about questions that I want to ask you about first principally around encoding. first principally around encoding. first principally around encoding. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I would say that with the fog >> I would say that with the fog >> I would say that with the fog there were questions that I began to ask there were questions that I began to ask there were questions that I began to ask myself that I've not yet answered and myself that I've not yet answered and myself that I've not yet answered and this is part of the reason I was looking this is part of the reason I was looking this is part of the reason I was looking forward to chatting with you. One of forward to chatting with you. One of forward to chatting with you. One of which is how do I think about energy as which is how do I think about energy as which is how do I think about energy as a core currency of life? And the reason a core currency of life? And the reason a core currency of life? And the reason I say that this is not taken verbatim I say that this is not taken verbatim I say that this is not taken verbatim from the book but it seems to be from the book but it seems to be from the book but it seems to be fundamental right like outside of fundamental right like outside of fundamental right like outside of accidents and so on like there is a accidents and so on like there is a accidents and so on like there is a point when you die and that is the point when you die and that is the point when you die and that is the sessation of energy sessation of energy sessation of energy >> and if you have all of the greatest >> and if you have all of the greatest >> and if you have all of the greatest intentions in the world the best laid intentions in the world the best laid intentions in the world the best laid plans if you do not have the energy to plans if you do not have the energy to plans if you do not have the energy to implement those things to execute implement those things to execute implement those things to execute >> I don't want to say all is for not but >> I don't want to say all is for not but >> I don't want to say all is for not but you're caught at a bit of a problematic you're caught at a bit of a problematic you're caught at a bit of a problematic situation so when I'm reading about situation so when I'm reading about situation so when I'm reading about these different case studies, these these different case studies, these these different case studies, these profiles in the books and there were profiles in the books and there were profiles in the books and there were there were so many fantastic ones. I there were so many fantastic ones. I there were so many fantastic ones. I really have to say I love the Katherine really have to say I love the Katherine really have to say I love the Katherine Graham Graham Graham >> piece. Hard to love Katherine Graham. >> piece. Hard to love Katherine Graham. >> piece. Hard to love Katherine Graham. >> Hard not to love because you see people >> Hard not to love because you see people >> Hard not to love because you see people who are put into say cliff situations who are put into say cliff situations who are put into say cliff situations and they are unprepared and then there and they are unprepared and then there and they are unprepared and then there are counterex examples where people are are counterex examples where people are are counterex examples where people are effectively have prepped for 10 or 20 effectively have prepped for 10 or 20 effectively have prepped for 10 or 20 years for the cliff they eventually face years for the cliff they eventually face years for the cliff they eventually face and those are very very different. and those are very very different. and those are very very different. >> Yes. in a lot of ways. And you also, >> Yes. in a lot of ways. And you also, >> Yes. in a lot of ways. And you also, not to keep burying the lead on this, not to keep burying the lead on this, not to keep burying the lead on this, have people who sort of methodically have people who sort of methodically have people who sort of methodically find their encodings. And I want you to find their encodings. And I want you to find their encodings. And I want you to distinguish that from strengths. You distinguish that from strengths. You distinguish that from strengths. You have people who are forced into a have people who are forced into a have people who are forced into a situation and thank God they just happen situation and thank God they just happen situation and thank God they just happen to have an overlap with the to have an overlap with the to have an overlap with the circumstances forced upon them and these circumstances forced upon them and these circumstances forced upon them and these inner workings that allow them to find inner workings that allow them to find inner workings that allow them to find their stride. as if you know Michael their stride. as if you know Michael their stride. as if you know Michael Jordan was sent to like basketball Jordan was sent to like basketball Jordan was sent to like basketball prison camp and like lo and behold what prison camp and like lo and behold what prison camp and like lo and behold what luck you know he happens to be luck you know he happens to be luck you know he happens to be incredibly good and and built for incredibly good and and built for incredibly good and and built for basketball. So my question for you that basketball. So my question for you that basketball. So my question for you that I want to hit on before we dive in if I I want to hit on before we dive in if I I want to hit on before we dive in if I asked Joanne asked Joanne asked Joanne why does Jim have more energy now than why does Jim have more energy now than why does Jim have more energy now than he did at 37? How would she answer it? he did at 37? How would she answer it? he did at 37? How would she answer it? because it seems to me like there might because it seems to me like there might because it seems to me like there might be a piece of honing in on encodings as be a piece of honing in on encodings as be a piece of honing in on encodings as a wellspring of energy, but you seem a wellspring of energy, but you seem a wellspring of energy, but you seem like you've always been pretty good at like you've always been pretty good at like you've always been pretty good at that, at least after some of your that, at least after some of your that, at least after some of your experiences at Stanford. What would her experiences at Stanford. What would her experiences at Stanford. What would her answer be, do you think? answer be, do you think? answer be, do you think? >> Years ago, there was a profile being >> Years ago, there was a profile being >> Years ago, there was a profile being done on me, and I I'm not big on a lot done on me, and I I'm not big on a lot done on me, and I I'm not big on a lot of profiles. I'd rather just have people of profiles. I'd rather just have people of profiles. I'd rather just have people read my books and take away the ideas. read my books and take away the ideas. read my books and take away the ideas. But anyways, the profile was going to But anyways, the profile was going to But anyways, the profile was going to happen. And so I said, "If we're going happen. And so I said, "If we're going happen. And so I said, "If we're going to do it, we'll do it right." and I to do it, we'll do it right." and I to do it, we'll do it right." and I invited the reporter out to Boulder and invited the reporter out to Boulder and invited the reporter out to Boulder and he said, "I'd really like to spend some he said, "I'd really like to spend some he said, "I'd really like to spend some time with Joanne." And I'm like, "Oo, time with Joanne." And I'm like, "Oo, time with Joanne." And I'm like, "Oo, okay, here we go." And what kind of okay, here we go." And what kind of okay, here we go." And what kind of profile is this going to be? profile is this going to be? profile is this going to be? >> So, we're at breakfast and he says, "I >> So, we're at breakfast and he says, "I >> So, we're at breakfast and he says, "I have one real question I really want to have one real question I really want to have one real question I really want to ask you." If you just pick one word to ask you." If you just pick one word to ask you." If you just pick one word to describe what it's like to live with describe what it's like to live with describe what it's like to live with Jim, what one word would you use? Okay. Jim, what one word would you use? Okay. Jim, what one word would you use? Okay. So, you got a picture. So, you got a picture. So, you got a picture. I'm sitting there waiting for the answer I'm sitting there waiting for the answer I'm sitting there waiting for the answer and I I'm wonder, you know, always an and I I'm wonder, you know, always an and I I'm wonder, you know, always an adventure, inspired, energizing, adventure, inspired, energizing, adventure, inspired, energizing, creative, right? All these things are creative, right? All these things are creative, right? All these things are going through my mind as possible. She going through my mind as possible. She going through my mind as possible. She gets one word and after a long pause, gets one word and after a long pause, gets one word and after a long pause, she just kind of looks at him she just kind of looks at him she just kind of looks at him completely, completely serious, completely, completely serious, completely, completely serious, completely just straight, you know, completely just straight, you know, completely just straight, you know, single answer, exhausting. You know, single answer, exhausting. You know, single answer, exhausting. You know, it's hilarious cuz I knew that word was it's hilarious cuz I knew that word was it's hilarious cuz I knew that word was coming. I like And that's me projecting. coming. I like And that's me projecting. coming. I like And that's me projecting. I'm thinking about my partner. That's I'm thinking about my partner. That's I'm thinking about my partner. That's hilarious. I literally in my head have hilarious. I literally in my head have hilarious. I literally in my head have exhausted exhausted exhausted >> exhausting. >> exhausting. >> exhausting. So she would relate to the question. So she would relate to the question. So she would relate to the question. I think what she would say is that yes, I think what she would say is that yes, I think what she would say is that yes, I've always had a high energy set point. I've always had a high energy set point. I've always had a high energy set point. And just as an aside, it's not something And just as an aside, it's not something And just as an aside, it's not something I think I even put in the book, but the I think I even put in the book, but the I think I even put in the book, but the way I came to think of it is that we all way I came to think of it is that we all way I came to think of it is that we all have kind of an energy set point. And have kind of an energy set point. And have kind of an energy set point. And maybe mine is just a reasonably high maybe mine is just a reasonably high maybe mine is just a reasonably high energy set point. And just to be clear energy set point. And just to be clear energy set point. And just to be clear though, I think that the thing I would though, I think that the thing I would though, I think that the thing I would want people to take away from what they want people to take away from what they want people to take away from what they read here is that whatever your energy read here is that whatever your energy read here is that whatever your energy set point, you know, you can have set point, you know, you can have set point, you know, you can have variation around that set point and and variation around that set point and and variation around that set point and and the question is how do you lead your the question is how do you lead your the question is how do you lead your life in such a way that you're on the life in such a way that you're on the life in such a way that you're on the positive side of that variation in the positive side of that variation in the positive side of that variation in the set point and it sustains until you run set point and it sustains until you run set point and it sustains until you run out of breath. Because so many what out of breath. Because so many what out of breath. Because so many what happens is they reach a certain point happens is they reach a certain point happens is they reach a certain point and they go below the energy set point and they go below the energy set point and they go below the energy set point because of whatever sets of reasons and because of whatever sets of reasons and because of whatever sets of reasons and end up with maybe 20 or 30 years of end up with maybe 20 or 30 years of end up with maybe 20 or 30 years of their life essentially off the table and their life essentially off the table and their life essentially off the table and that's an unfortunate loss to the world. that's an unfortunate loss to the world. that's an unfortunate loss to the world. I think Joanne would say one, I'm one of I think Joanne would say one, I'm one of I think Joanne would say one, I'm one of those people who those people who those people who really set out in life somehow to end up really set out in life somehow to end up really set out in life somehow to end up expending my energy in things that I expending my energy in things that I expending my energy in things that I derive tremendous derive tremendous derive tremendous intrinsic intrinsic intrinsic pleasure from doing the actual doing of pleasure from doing the actual doing of pleasure from doing the actual doing of it. M it. M it. M >> that sense of if you're doing it, you >> that sense of if you're doing it, you >> that sense of if you're doing it, you can't not do it right. Like I like you, can't not do it right. Like I like you, can't not do it right. Like I like you, I don't have to demonstrate that I can I don't have to demonstrate that I can I don't have to demonstrate that I can do well at what I do. I don't have to do well at what I do. I don't have to do well at what I do. I don't have to worry about do I know how to I don't worry about do I know how to I don't worry about do I know how to I don't know have a teaching moment or whatever, know have a teaching moment or whatever, know have a teaching moment or whatever, right? How to come up with the right right? How to come up with the right right? How to come up with the right questions to ask somebody running a big questions to ask somebody running a big questions to ask somebody running a big company. But if I sit down, I still get company. But if I sit down, I still get company. But if I sit down, I still get joy out of preparing for a a moment or joy out of preparing for a a moment or joy out of preparing for a a moment or being at it or or just a sense of being at it or or just a sense of being at it or or just a sense of excitement that morning because the excitement that morning because the excitement that morning because the actual doing is something that I so love actual doing is something that I so love actual doing is something that I so love that I put in the book and Joanne is the that I put in the book and Joanne is the that I put in the book and Joanne is the one that helped me sort of see this. I'd one that helped me sort of see this. I'd one that helped me sort of see this. I'd always thought of myself as an always thought of myself as an always thought of myself as an incredibly disciplined person and incredibly disciplined person and incredibly disciplined person and everybody else saw me as really everybody else saw me as really everybody else saw me as really disciplined and I kind finally came to disciplined and I kind finally came to disciplined and I kind finally came to the conclusion I'm really not very the conclusion I'm really not very the conclusion I'm really not very disciplined. I mean, I am somewhat. But disciplined. I mean, I am somewhat. But disciplined. I mean, I am somewhat. But look, if you just can't help, you just look, if you just can't help, you just look, if you just can't help, you just can't stop yourself can't stop yourself can't stop yourself >> from preparing, from getting ready to do >> from preparing, from getting ready to do >> from preparing, from getting ready to do the very best you can because you're the very best you can because you're the very best you can because you're doing something that just so pulls it doing something that just so pulls it doing something that just so pulls it like you can't stop yourself. Well, like you can't stop yourself. Well, like you can't stop yourself. Well, that's not discipline. You're just that's not discipline. You're just that's not discipline. You're just compelled. You're just it's it's almost compelled. You're just it's it's almost compelled. You're just it's it's almost a form of compulsion, which isn't a form of compulsion, which isn't a form of compulsion, which isn't discipline, right? and and if it's sheer discipline, right? and and if it's sheer discipline, right? and and if it's sheer love of the actual doing itself, love of the actual doing itself, love of the actual doing itself, well, how's that discipline? Just love well, how's that discipline? Just love well, how's that discipline? Just love doing it. So, that's one. But I think doing it. So, that's one. But I think doing it. So, that's one. But I think she would also say that like you love she would also say that like you love she would also say that like you love having a big project and this has been a having a big project and this has been a having a big project and this has been a huge project, right? So, for 12 years huge project, right? So, for 12 years huge project, right? So, for 12 years from the time I first started noodling from the time I first started noodling from the time I first started noodling on this till when I finally finished the on this till when I finally finished the on this till when I finally finished the writing, when I wake up in the morning, writing, when I wake up in the morning, writing, when I wake up in the morning, I don't have any question until the I don't have any question until the I don't have any question until the book's done. Maybe I'll go into a fog book's done. Maybe I'll go into a fog book's done. Maybe I'll go into a fog now. I had no question what was in front now. I had no question what was in front now. I had no question what was in front of me at 4:00 a.m. There's always the of me at 4:00 a.m. There's always the of me at 4:00 a.m. There's always the project, right? Every single day there's project, right? Every single day there's project, right? Every single day there's the project and that's energizing even the project and that's energizing even the project and that's energizing even if it's huge and monstrous. And and then if it's huge and monstrous. And and then if it's huge and monstrous. And and then the third is this sense of extending out the third is this sense of extending out the third is this sense of extending out and circling back that that I saw in all and circling back that that I saw in all and circling back that that I saw in all the people in the study of that this the people in the study of that this the people in the study of that this really interesting it'll be very really interesting it'll be very really interesting it'll be very interesting to see for you as well as interesting to see for you as well as interesting to see for you as well as happens with this with this sense of happens with this with this sense of happens with this with this sense of this notion of kind of radical this notion of kind of radical this notion of kind of radical reinvention isn't really what we saw. reinvention isn't really what we saw. reinvention isn't really what we saw. There weren't people who quote radically There weren't people who quote radically There weren't people who quote radically reinvented themselves. It was this reinvented themselves. It was this reinvented themselves. It was this organic process of kind of extending and organic process of kind of extending and organic process of kind of extending and pushing themselves out into new modes or pushing themselves out into new modes or pushing themselves out into new modes or new things or new activities etc. Kind new things or new activities etc. Kind new things or new activities etc. Kind of an extension outward. But then they of an extension outward. But then they of an extension outward. But then they would always find a way to circle back would always find a way to circle back would always find a way to circle back to things that they had built upon to things that they had built upon to things that they had built upon previously as almost a form of fuel to previously as almost a form of fuel to previously as almost a form of fuel to further extend out. Robert Plant's one further extend out. Robert Plant's one further extend out. Robert Plant's one of my favorite people in the study and I of my favorite people in the study and I of my favorite people in the study and I love how over the, you know, what keeps love how over the, you know, what keeps love how over the, you know, what keeps him so full of fire for music and for him so full of fire for music and for him so full of fire for music and for singing all these decades later. And if singing all these decades later. And if singing all these decades later. And if you look at him, he's like, you know, he you look at him, he's like, you know, he you look at him, he's like, you know, he sure he's no longer in Zeppelin. He sure he's no longer in Zeppelin. He sure he's no longer in Zeppelin. He doesn't need to be. He's he was doesn't need to be. He's he was doesn't need to be. He's he was extending out into bluegrass and he was extending out into bluegrass and he was extending out into bluegrass and he was extending out into, you know, going off extending out into, you know, going off extending out into, you know, going off to the desert and playing with trans to the desert and playing with trans to the desert and playing with trans musicians and all these kinds of really musicians and all these kinds of really musicians and all these kinds of really and learning to blend his voice with and learning to blend his voice with and learning to blend his voice with Allison Krauss. I mean, utterly Allison Krauss. I mean, utterly Allison Krauss. I mean, utterly marvelous extensions with Allison Krauss marvelous extensions with Allison Krauss marvelous extensions with Allison Krauss or with some of his extensions. He'd or with some of his extensions. He'd or with some of his extensions. He'd come back and rebring to life a Led come back and rebring to life a Led come back and rebring to life a Led Zeppelin song. Zeppelin song. Zeppelin song. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And then they would do a bluegrass >> And then they would do a bluegrass >> And then they would do a bluegrass version of Black Dog and just that sense version of Black Dog and just that sense version of Black Dog and just that sense of this extending and circling back. of this extending and circling back. of this extending and circling back. Well, this study for me, you could look Well, this study for me, you could look Well, this study for me, you could look at it as I'm doing something radically at it as I'm doing something radically at it as I'm doing something radically new. Yes, it's a new question, new study new. Yes, it's a new question, new study new. Yes, it's a new question, new study set, all that. But I'm also circling set, all that. But I'm also circling set, all that. But I'm also circling back back back and to what I've always loved to do, and to what I've always loved to do, and to what I've always loved to do, which is to take a big giant messy which is to take a big giant messy which is to take a big giant messy question, question, question, put a methodology around it, and spend put a methodology around it, and spend put a methodology around it, and spend years figuring it out. Right? That's years figuring it out. Right? That's years figuring it out. Right? That's consistent. That's a circle back. The consistent. That's a circle back. The consistent. That's a circle back. The extendout is it's a different question extendout is it's a different question extendout is it's a different question and different unit of analysis. So, as and different unit of analysis. So, as and different unit of analysis. So, as both. And then the last is this, and we both. And then the last is this, and we both. And then the last is this, and we talked about this, I think, a little bit talked about this, I think, a little bit talked about this, I think, a little bit in one of our previous ones, but I would in one of our previous ones, but I would in one of our previous ones, but I would really put it this way. When I was really put it this way. When I was really put it this way. When I was younger, I had a lot of fire, but it was younger, I had a lot of fire, but it was younger, I had a lot of fire, but it was really painful fire. really painful fire. really painful fire. It was burning hot red molten lava in my It was burning hot red molten lava in my It was burning hot red molten lava in my stomach. stomach. stomach. Almost like channeled rage, chneled Almost like channeled rage, chneled Almost like channeled rage, chneled ferocity. ferocity. ferocity. >> Yeah, I know the feeling. >> Yeah, I know the feeling. >> Yeah, I know the feeling. >> Yeah, you know that feeling, right? And >> Yeah, you know that feeling, right? And >> Yeah, you know that feeling, right? And I used to worry that if I ever lost I used to worry that if I ever lost I used to worry that if I ever lost that, I'd lose my drive. that, I'd lose my drive. that, I'd lose my drive. And I think what's happened, I know And I think what's happened, I know And I think what's happened, I know what's happened is the fire's changed. what's happened is the fire's changed. what's happened is the fire's changed. The fire used to be like this molten hot The fire used to be like this molten hot The fire used to be like this molten hot burning ferocity in the belly. And now burning ferocity in the belly. And now burning ferocity in the belly. And now it's like this. It's not red. It's I it's like this. It's not red. It's I it's like this. It's not red. It's I think of it as green and yellow and it's think of it as green and yellow and it's think of it as green and yellow and it's like this sustained warming glow. And I like this sustained warming glow. And I like this sustained warming glow. And I don't have that. I do not have those don't have that. I do not have those don't have that. I do not have those kind of insecurity. prove myself kinds kind of insecurity. prove myself kinds kind of insecurity. prove myself kinds of things that are driving me of things that are driving me of things that are driving me and as a result my energyy's gone up and and as a result my energyy's gone up and and as a result my energyy's gone up and I think that because the fire is I think that because the fire is I think that because the fire is different because the fire is this different because the fire is this different because the fire is this sustained warming glow it is just like sustained warming glow it is just like sustained warming glow it is just like constantly generative and I think that's constantly generative and I think that's constantly generative and I think that's a really really big part of it that a really really big part of it that a really really big part of it that sense of like you write a sentence and sense of like you write a sentence and sense of like you write a sentence and you look at it and you go wow you look at it and you go wow you look at it and you go wow that's almost a good sentence that's almost a good sentence that's almost a good sentence >> so let me ask you about >> so let me ask you about >> so let me ask you about color shift, right? Going from the red color shift, right? Going from the red color shift, right? Going from the red to the greenish yellow. Yeah. to the greenish yellow. Yeah. to the greenish yellow. Yeah. >> Is that a byproduct of age in the sense >> Is that a byproduct of age in the sense >> Is that a byproduct of age in the sense that you've amassed a corpus of work that you've amassed a corpus of work that you've amassed a corpus of work that at some point you cannot with a that at some point you cannot with a that at some point you cannot with a straight face to yourself justify being straight face to yourself justify being straight face to yourself justify being redot because you're like, look at this redot because you're like, look at this redot because you're like, look at this CV. I cannot with any sincerity say that CV. I cannot with any sincerity say that CV. I cannot with any sincerity say that I have anything left to prove. Is is I have anything left to prove. Is is I have anything left to prove. Is is that what provoked the shift? Is there that what provoked the shift? Is there that what provoked the shift? Is there something else? What what actually something else? What what actually something else? What what actually happened that led to that shift in fuel, happened that led to that shift in fuel, happened that led to that shift in fuel, so to speak? so to speak? so to speak? >> First of all, I would imagine that a >> First of all, I would imagine that a >> First of all, I would imagine that a number of people and maybe you yourself number of people and maybe you yourself number of people and maybe you yourself relate to the raging burning lava coals. relate to the raging burning lava coals. relate to the raging burning lava coals. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, boy. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, boy. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, boy. >> And you kind of cling on to them because >> And you kind of cling on to them because >> And you kind of cling on to them because you feel you need them. And I guess I'm you feel you need them. And I guess I'm you feel you need them. And I guess I'm just a data point of one that I don't just a data point of one that I don't just a data point of one that I don't need them to have even more energy. And need them to have even more energy. And need them to have even more energy. And so there is life without them that's so there is life without them that's so there is life without them that's really wonderful. and your best stuff, really wonderful. and your best stuff, really wonderful. and your best stuff, your best work coming from it. I don't your best work coming from it. I don't your best work coming from it. I don't think it was, oh, I mean, it's nice that think it was, oh, I mean, it's nice that think it was, oh, I mean, it's nice that Joan and I don't need to worry about Joan and I don't need to worry about Joan and I don't need to worry about like are we going to hit the pavement like are we going to hit the pavement like are we going to hit the pavement like having no safety net and all that like having no safety net and all that like having no safety net and all that kind of worry and fear that we used to kind of worry and fear that we used to kind of worry and fear that we used to live with of just genuine almost terror live with of just genuine almost terror live with of just genuine almost terror of are things going to work. of are things going to work. of are things going to work. >> So, it's nice to not have that, but I I >> So, it's nice to not have that, but I I >> So, it's nice to not have that, but I I don't think that's the essence of it. I don't think that's the essence of it. I don't think that's the essence of it. I think it didn't happen like a flash. think it didn't happen like a flash. think it didn't happen like a flash. I think what a lot of what really I think what a lot of what really I think what a lot of what really happened happened happened happened as a result of studying the happened as a result of studying the happened as a result of studying the lives in this book. I really mean it. lives in this book. I really mean it. lives in this book. I really mean it. the last 12 now plus years since I the last 12 now plus years since I the last 12 now plus years since I started the first nibblings of this started the first nibblings of this started the first nibblings of this project in 2013 project in 2013 project in 2013 and the journey of doing this book so and the journey of doing this book so and the journey of doing this book so transformed me and I think that I was transformed me and I think that I was transformed me and I think that I was probably prepped for that but it was by probably prepped for that but it was by probably prepped for that but it was by somehow living alongside them in their somehow living alongside them in their somehow living alongside them in their lives it was like affecting me and I lives it was like affecting me and I lives it was like affecting me and I think one of the ways it affected me is think one of the ways it affected me is think one of the ways it affected me is was I saw them you just look at the was I saw them you just look at the was I saw them you just look at the sheer rapturous joy of Robert Plant sheer rapturous joy of Robert Plant sheer rapturous joy of Robert Plant blend ending his voice with Allison blend ending his voice with Allison blend ending his voice with Allison Krauss. Krauss. Krauss. Or you look at that this wonderful video Or you look at that this wonderful video Or you look at that this wonderful video I came across of Grace Hopper, the great I came across of Grace Hopper, the great I came across of Grace Hopper, the great computer scientist who invented software computer scientist who invented software computer scientist who invented software essentially. It's amazing story. Silicon essentially. It's amazing story. Silicon essentially. It's amazing story. Silicon Valley should know her story more. It's Valley should know her story more. It's Valley should know her story more. It's really an incredible story. And she's on really an incredible story. And she's on really an incredible story. And she's on Letterman at I think age 79. And she is Letterman at I think age 79. And she is Letterman at I think age 79. And she is like one of the most sparklefilled, like one of the most sparklefilled, like one of the most sparklefilled, firefilled. She just radiates out of firefilled. She just radiates out of firefilled. She just radiates out of that Letterman interview. And it's just that Letterman interview. And it's just that Letterman interview. And it's just absolutely marvelous. I could just go absolutely marvelous. I could just go absolutely marvelous. I could just go through case after case where what I saw through case after case where what I saw through case after case where what I saw was, you know, Barbara Mcccleintoch was, you know, Barbara Mcccleintoch was, you know, Barbara Mcccleintoch solving the geneticist solving a solving the geneticist solving a solving the geneticist solving a genetics puzzle and and her sense of she genetics puzzle and and her sense of she genetics puzzle and and her sense of she didn't fear dying in a car crash because didn't fear dying in a car crash because didn't fear dying in a car crash because there were all these car crashes that there were all these car crashes that there were all these car crashes that she was driving across the country so she was driving across the country so she was driving across the country so much as she feared dying in a car crash much as she feared dying in a car crash much as she feared dying in a car crash before she'd solved the puzzle that she before she'd solved the puzzle that she before she'd solved the puzzle that she had, right? Cuz she just so needed to had, right? Cuz she just so needed to had, right? Cuz she just so needed to solve the puzzle. And every life was one solve the puzzle. And every life was one solve the puzzle. And every life was one of these ones where it's like they got of these ones where it's like they got of these ones where it's like they got to this point where the thing that they to this point where the thing that they to this point where the thing that they were engaged in in doing was so were engaged in in doing was so were engaged in in doing was so reinforcing in itself for itself. reinforcing in itself for itself. reinforcing in itself for itself. And I think somehow just being so close And I think somehow just being so close And I think somehow just being so close to their lives while I walked through to their lives while I walked through to their lives while I walked through them had this effect on me and it began them had this effect on me and it began them had this effect on me and it began to soften me. It's very hard to explain, to soften me. It's very hard to explain, to soften me. It's very hard to explain, but if you spent years alongside them at but if you spent years alongside them at but if you spent years alongside them at each step of the way through their each step of the way through their each step of the way through their lives, which is what I did, lives, which is what I did, lives, which is what I did, they like rubbed off on me. they like rubbed off on me. they like rubbed off on me. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And they all somehow got to this point >> And they all somehow got to this point >> And they all somehow got to this point and I think that it just affected me. I and I think that it just affected me. I and I think that it just affected me. I mean, I can't really explain it and mean, I can't really explain it and mean, I can't really explain it and other than that is it just affected me. other than that is it just affected me. other than that is it just affected me. >> Mhm. Let's look at another facet of this >> Mhm. Let's look at another facet of this >> Mhm. Let's look at another facet of this same prism because looking at for same prism because looking at for same prism because looking at for instance whether it's you whether it's a instance whether it's you whether it's a instance whether it's you whether it's a geneticist or any real figure in the geneticist or any real figure in the geneticist or any real figure in the book that you've profiled finding your book that you've profiled finding your book that you've profiled finding your power zone with respect to encodings and power zone with respect to encodings and power zone with respect to encodings and I want you to differentiate that from I want you to differentiate that from I want you to differentiate that from strengths seems at the very top of the strengths seems at the very top of the strengths seems at the very top of the pyramid in some respects or the base pyramid in some respects or the base pyramid in some respects or the base depending on how you want to look at it depending on how you want to look at it depending on how you want to look at it But if we're trying to put dominoes in But if we're trying to put dominoes in But if we're trying to put dominoes in order, that seems like a very important order, that seems like a very important order, that seems like a very important domino to tip over first. domino to tip over first. domino to tip over first. >> It seems to be a prerequisite for a lot >> It seems to be a prerequisite for a lot >> It seems to be a prerequisite for a lot of the other things. And I'm wondering of the other things. And I'm wondering of the other things. And I'm wondering if somebody flew out to spend time with if somebody flew out to spend time with if somebody flew out to spend time with you for a day and they were like, "Jim, you for a day and they were like, "Jim, you for a day and they were like, "Jim, I know you're good at asking questions. I know you're good at asking questions. I know you're good at asking questions. That's what you do. How the hell do I That's what you do. How the hell do I That's what you do. How the hell do I find what my encodings are?" Because find what my encodings are?" Because find what my encodings are?" Because without that, it seems like having the without that, it seems like having the without that, it seems like having the conviction to know when you wake up conviction to know when you wake up conviction to know when you wake up exactly what you're going to do becomes exactly what you're going to do becomes exactly what you're going to do becomes a lot harder. And I'm not trying to a lot harder. And I'm not trying to a lot harder. And I'm not trying to speak for you, but it does seem to me speak for you, but it does seem to me speak for you, but it does seem to me that if you are always suffering from that if you are always suffering from that if you are always suffering from decision fatigue, paradox of choice, decision fatigue, paradox of choice, decision fatigue, paradox of choice, man, that's a great way to use up all man, that's a great way to use up all man, that's a great way to use up all your chi and end up dead before you your chi and end up dead before you your chi and end up dead before you should be. I mean, creatively or should be. I mean, creatively or should be. I mean, creatively or physically or otherwise. What are physically or otherwise. What are physically or otherwise. What are encodings? If they're different from encodings? If they're different from encodings? If they're different from strengths, how are they different? And strengths, how are they different? And strengths, how are they different? And how do you find them if you're not lucky how do you find them if you're not lucky how do you find them if you're not lucky enough to be like a Yo-Yo Ma who gets a enough to be like a Yo-Yo Ma who gets a enough to be like a Yo-Yo Ma who gets a cello handed to him when he's four or a cello handed to him when he's four or a cello handed to him when he's four or a Tiger Woods whose dad's like here you go Tiger Woods whose dad's like here you go Tiger Woods whose dad's like here you go buddy at age god knows whatever right so buddy at age god knows whatever right so buddy at age god knows whatever right so we should go back and forth on this a we should go back and forth on this a we should go back and forth on this a little bit because there's kind of two little bit because there's kind of two little bit because there's kind of two strands that will come together and I strands that will come together and I strands that will come together and I think they're for me were really think they're for me were really think they're for me were really >> really really eye opening and very >> really really eye opening and very >> really really eye opening and very uplifting in the end by looking you know uplifting in the end by looking you know uplifting in the end by looking you know the study across these lives because the study across these lives because the study across these lives because there's the luck piece of kind of how there's the luck piece of kind of how there's the luck piece of kind of how the roulette wheel of your life spins as the roulette wheel of your life spins as the roulette wheel of your life spins as to which encodings you discover. to which encodings you discover. to which encodings you discover. And then there's what the encodings are. And then there's what the encodings are. And then there's what the encodings are. They're actually kind of joined, if you They're actually kind of joined, if you They're actually kind of joined, if you will, as an idea. We have multiple will, as an idea. We have multiple will, as an idea. We have multiple examples in the book of where people it examples in the book of where people it examples in the book of where people it was almost like by well chance in some was almost like by well chance in some was almost like by well chance in some ways that they discovered the set of ways that they discovered the set of ways that they discovered the set of encodings that they that they decided to encodings that they that they decided to encodings that they that they decided to dedicate themselves to. dedicate themselves to. dedicate themselves to. >> So first of all, let's just talk about >> So first of all, let's just talk about >> So first of all, let's just talk about encodings. I'm going to describe what encodings. I'm going to describe what encodings. I'm going to describe what encodings are and how they kind of work. encodings are and how they kind of work. encodings are and how they kind of work. But if you don't mind, Tim, given that But if you don't mind, Tim, given that But if you don't mind, Tim, given that you're in the fog, I want to ask you a you're in the fog, I want to ask you a you're in the fog, I want to ask you a question about encodings for yourself. question about encodings for yourself. question about encodings for yourself. >> Love questions. >> Love questions. >> Love questions. >> Encodings are these kind of durable >> Encodings are these kind of durable >> Encodings are these kind of durable capacities that reside within and capacities that reside within and capacities that reside within and they're awaiting discovery through the they're awaiting discovery through the they're awaiting discovery through the experiences of life. experiences of life. experiences of life. And first huge thing about encodings is And first huge thing about encodings is And first huge thing about encodings is most of us our lives will come to the most of us our lives will come to the most of us our lives will come to the end with probably vast swaths of our end with probably vast swaths of our end with probably vast swaths of our encodings never discovered. encodings never discovered. encodings never discovered. And the way I think about it and and you And the way I think about it and and you And the way I think about it and and you know this from the book but I really know this from the book but I really know this from the book but I really like to help people who are listening like to help people who are listening like to help people who are listening hear this is that I came to think of it hear this is that I came to think of it hear this is that I came to think of it as like a constellation of encodings. as like a constellation of encodings. as like a constellation of encodings. They're just you have a constellation of They're just you have a constellation of They're just you have a constellation of encodings. I have a constellation of encodings. I have a constellation of encodings. I have a constellation of encodings. Everybody on the planet has a encodings. Everybody on the planet has a encodings. Everybody on the planet has a constellation of encodings. And it's constellation of encodings. And it's constellation of encodings. And it's like a vast galaxy of encodings. But at like a vast galaxy of encodings. But at like a vast galaxy of encodings. But at any given moment, your life is looking any given moment, your life is looking any given moment, your life is looking through like a window frame at those through like a window frame at those through like a window frame at those encodings. And that what happens is that encodings. And that what happens is that encodings. And that what happens is that there's points in life where the window there's points in life where the window there's points in life where the window frame, right, captures a set of a big frame, right, captures a set of a big frame, right, captures a set of a big bright set of those encodings coming bright set of those encodings coming bright set of those encodings coming through the window and you're kind of in through the window and you're kind of in through the window and you're kind of in frame with them. And then if the window frame with them. And then if the window frame with them. And then if the window frame shifts again and doesn't capture frame shifts again and doesn't capture frame shifts again and doesn't capture very many encodings, you're kind of, if very many encodings, you're kind of, if very many encodings, you're kind of, if you will, out of frame, you're not you will, out of frame, you're not you will, out of frame, you're not really capturing many encodings. the really capturing many encodings. the really capturing many encodings. the encodings are still there, right? encodings are still there, right? encodings are still there, right? They're they're just there, but the kind They're they're just there, but the kind They're they're just there, but the kind of your life can shift around whether of your life can shift around whether of your life can shift around whether you're capturing a set of encodings or you're capturing a set of encodings or you're capturing a set of encodings or whether you're really not. So, I think whether you're really not. So, I think whether you're really not. So, I think about the test pilot John Glenn, who you about the test pilot John Glenn, who you about the test pilot John Glenn, who you read about, and how he was not capturing read about, and how he was not capturing read about, and how he was not capturing encodings when he was a young man. At encodings when he was a young man. At encodings when he was a young man. At first, I mean, his parents thought, first, I mean, his parents thought, first, I mean, his parents thought, well, maybe he'll come into the family well, maybe he'll come into the family well, maybe he'll come into the family business or, you know, maybe you should business or, you know, maybe you should business or, you know, maybe you should go try to be a doctor. But he just go try to be a doctor. But he just go try to be a doctor. But he just wasn't I mean, the encodings were not wasn't I mean, the encodings were not wasn't I mean, the encodings were not really in frame when he was like taking really in frame when he was like taking really in frame when he was like taking chemistry and physics and things like chemistry and physics and things like chemistry and physics and things like this. And then through a a happen stance this. And then through a a happen stance this. And then through a a happen stance event, he was able to get a pilot's event, he was able to get a pilot's event, he was able to get a pilot's license paid for by the government that license paid for by the government that license paid for by the government that was looking to train some pilots. And he was looking to train some pilots. And he was looking to train some pilots. And he goes and he signs up for this, convinces goes and he signs up for this, convinces goes and he signs up for this, convinces his parents to let him do it. And the his parents to let him do it. And the his parents to let him do it. And the moment he gets into an aircraft, it was moment he gets into an aircraft, it was moment he gets into an aircraft, it was like like like click. I mean, the way the aircraft click. I mean, the way the aircraft click. I mean, the way the aircraft felt, eventually being able to wear the felt, eventually being able to wear the felt, eventually being able to wear the aircraft like a glove, his encoded aircraft like a glove, his encoded aircraft like a glove, his encoded ability that he only discovered, he ability that he only discovered, he ability that he only discovered, he didn't add it. It was just there, that didn't add it. It was just there, that didn't add it. It was just there, that under extreme danger and immense speed, under extreme danger and immense speed, under extreme danger and immense speed, he could have a heart rate that is, you he could have a heart rate that is, you he could have a heart rate that is, you know, everything slows down. If know, everything slows down. If know, everything slows down. If somebody's flying behind me in a somebody's flying behind me in a somebody's flying behind me in a supersonic jet trying to knock me out of supersonic jet trying to knock me out of supersonic jet trying to knock me out of the sky over Korea in the Korean War, my the sky over Korea in the Korean War, my the sky over Korea in the Korean War, my heart rate's probably not going to go heart rate's probably not going to go heart rate's probably not going to go down. But John Glenn's would go down, down. But John Glenn's would go down, down. But John Glenn's would go down, right? And then of course he becomes an right? And then of course he becomes an right? And then of course he becomes an astronaut. Gordon Cooper is match pair astronaut. Gordon Cooper is match pair astronaut. Gordon Cooper is match pair very similar. And so it's all of a very similar. And so it's all of a very similar. And so it's all of a sudden bang. And then after his career sudden bang. And then after his career sudden bang. And then after his career that came to an end. Very interesting that came to an end. Very interesting that came to an end. Very interesting little story of how he thought they little story of how he thought they little story of how he thought they finally concluded that John Kennedy had finally concluded that John Kennedy had finally concluded that John Kennedy had pulled him out of the rotation so that pulled him out of the rotation so that pulled him out of the rotation so that he wouldn't be able to go to the moon he wouldn't be able to go to the moon he wouldn't be able to go to the moon because Kennedy felt he was too valuable because Kennedy felt he was too valuable because Kennedy felt he was too valuable as a national hero. And so he couldn't as a national hero. And so he couldn't as a national hero. And so he couldn't be an astronaut anymore really. And that be an astronaut anymore really. And that be an astronaut anymore really. And that was his cliff. and 10 years and he went was his cliff. and 10 years and he went was his cliff. and 10 years and he went off to Royal Crown Cola. And what I love off to Royal Crown Cola. And what I love off to Royal Crown Cola. And what I love is this little detail where he's got of is this little detail where he's got of is this little detail where he's got of his memoir, his time at Royal Crown Cola his memoir, his time at Royal Crown Cola his memoir, his time at Royal Crown Cola is like almost 10% of his life and it's is like almost 10% of his life and it's is like almost 10% of his life and it's 0.2% 0.2% 0.2% of his memoir. of his memoir. of his memoir. >> Not much to report here. >> Not much to report here. >> Not much to report here. >> Exactly. Exactly. And so he's still John >> Exactly. Exactly. And so he's still John >> Exactly. Exactly. And so he's still John Glenn, but what happened is the window Glenn, but what happened is the window Glenn, but what happened is the window frame shift shifted and it wasn't until frame shift shifted and it wasn't until frame shift shifted and it wasn't until he got back into the Senate where it he got back into the Senate where it he got back into the Senate where it shifted again. You know, he I'm sure he shifted again. You know, he I'm sure he shifted again. You know, he I'm sure he was an adequate executive, but it wasn't was an adequate executive, but it wasn't was an adequate executive, but it wasn't like when he was flying fighter jets and like when he was flying fighter jets and like when he was flying fighter jets and >> going up and orbiting the Earth, right? >> going up and orbiting the Earth, right? >> going up and orbiting the Earth, right? He was now kind of out of frame. He was now kind of out of frame. He was now kind of out of frame. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so the essence of it is encodings >> And so the essence of it is encodings >> And so the essence of it is encodings are there to be discovered by the are there to be discovered by the are there to be discovered by the experiences of life. experiences of life. experiences of life. And when they click into frame, it's And when they click into frame, it's And when they click into frame, it's trusting them almost if you don't know trusting them almost if you don't know trusting them almost if you don't know where they're going to go. In many where they're going to go. In many where they're going to go. In many cases, the people didn't know where they cases, the people didn't know where they cases, the people didn't know where they were going to go. And were going to go. And were going to go. And yes, you turn encodings into more yes, you turn encodings into more yes, you turn encodings into more strengths by training and discipline and strengths by training and discipline and strengths by training and discipline and you know, all those sorts of things. But you know, all those sorts of things. But you know, all those sorts of things. But John Glenn could have done 10 MBAs John Glenn could have done 10 MBAs John Glenn could have done 10 MBAs and he would have never been as encoded and he would have never been as encoded and he would have never been as encoded for being a business executive, for being a business executive, for being a business executive, >> right, >> right, >> right, >> the way he was encoded for being a >> the way he was encoded for being a >> the way he was encoded for being a senator and encoded for being a fighter senator and encoded for being a fighter senator and encoded for being a fighter pilot and an astronaut. And so the key pilot and an astronaut. And so the key pilot and an astronaut. And so the key is is is discovering some set of them and letting discovering some set of them and letting discovering some set of them and letting them letting them go. And that's an them letting them go. And that's an them letting them go. And that's an empirical set of observations. So now I empirical set of observations. So now I empirical set of observations. So now I come back to the question for you. come back to the question for you. come back to the question for you. you've written. you've written. you've written. >> I mean, you clearly have encodings for >> I mean, you clearly have encodings for >> I mean, you clearly have encodings for doing what we're doing today. doing what we're doing today. doing what we're doing today. You have other kinds of encodings around You have other kinds of encodings around You have other kinds of encodings around just sheer curiosity and so forth. So just sheer curiosity and so forth. So just sheer curiosity and so forth. So have you thought about this as you were have you thought about this as you were have you thought about this as you were making notes as you were thinking about making notes as you were thinking about making notes as you were thinking about what are your encodings what are your encodings what are your encodings as distinct from sure you've turned your as distinct from sure you've turned your as distinct from sure you've turned your encodings that you've discovered into encodings that you've discovered into encodings that you've discovered into strengths but the things that were strengths but the things that were strengths but the things that were really have a basis of of encoding really have a basis of of encoding really have a basis of of encoding coming into frame I'm curious what coming into frame I'm curious what coming into frame I'm curious what occurred to you and especially as you occurred to you and especially as you occurred to you and especially as you think about like what's going to be next think about like what's going to be next think about like what's going to be next >> all right I'll return serve so I'll I'll >> all right I'll return serve so I'll I'll >> all right I'll return serve so I'll I'll then have a ton of other questions But then have a ton of other questions But then have a ton of other questions But I'll answer that in a maybe a bit of a I'll answer that in a maybe a bit of a I'll answer that in a maybe a bit of a roundabout way. I have tried to ferret roundabout way. I have tried to ferret roundabout way. I have tried to ferret it this out before for myself. I think it this out before for myself. I think it this out before for myself. I think with different degrees of success. I with different degrees of success. I with different degrees of success. I think I have in most cases because I think I have in most cases because I think I have in most cases because I assume my self-awareness is very assume my self-awareness is very assume my self-awareness is very imperfect at best imperfect at best imperfect at best >> benefited from asking other people >> benefited from asking other people >> benefited from asking other people questions who are very close to me. And questions who are very close to me. And questions who are very close to me. And those have been those have been those have been coaches, agents, friends, collaborators, coaches, agents, friends, collaborators, coaches, agents, friends, collaborators, almost like a 360 almost like a 360 almost like a 360 degree kind of analysis. And some of degree kind of analysis. And some of degree kind of analysis. And some of those questions have included, those questions have included, those questions have included, when have you seen me at my best and when have you seen me at my best and when have you seen me at my best and when have you seen me at my worst? when have you seen me at my worst? when have you seen me at my worst? Right? What do you think I find easier Right? What do you think I find easier Right? What do you think I find easier to do than other people? These types of to do than other people? These types of to do than other people? These types of questions. And I suppose where I've questions. And I suppose where I've questions. And I suppose where I've landed, but let me postpone the landed, but let me postpone the landed, but let me postpone the punchline first to say that punchline first to say that punchline first to say that I've really found it fascinating to look I've really found it fascinating to look I've really found it fascinating to look at, this is going to be seem like a hard at, this is going to be seem like a hard at, this is going to be seem like a hard left to people, but the sort of Soviet left to people, but the sort of Soviet left to people, but the sort of Soviet and also Chinese approaches to sourcing and also Chinese approaches to sourcing and also Chinese approaches to sourcing athletes. athletes. athletes. >> How on earth are they so successful? How >> How on earth are they so successful? How >> How on earth are they so successful? How were they so dominant for so long? And were they so dominant for so long? And were they so dominant for so long? And yes, you can explain some of it with yes, you can explain some of it with yes, you can explain some of it with kind of top- down autocratic kind of top- down autocratic kind of top- down autocratic decision-m and policym and so on. But in decision-m and policym and so on. But in decision-m and policym and so on. But in China, for instance, China, for instance, China, for instance, they will scout by doing some very very they will scout by doing some very very they will scout by doing some very very simple things. They'll go to every simple things. They'll go to every simple things. They'll go to every elementary school you can imagine and elementary school you can imagine and elementary school you can imagine and have kids do a broad jump, right? And have kids do a broad jump, right? And have kids do a broad jump, right? And they'll make it fun. It's not some kind they'll make it fun. It's not some kind they'll make it fun. It's not some kind of back whipping exercise, but they'll of back whipping exercise, but they'll of back whipping exercise, but they'll have them do a handful of things. Hold a have them do a handful of things. Hold a have them do a handful of things. Hold a broomstick overhead and get into a broomstick overhead and get into a broomstick overhead and get into a squat, right? And that's how they start squat, right? And that's how they start squat, right? And that's how they start to source potential candidates for to source potential candidates for to source potential candidates for >> Olympic weightlifting gold. But >> Olympic weightlifting gold. But >> Olympic weightlifting gold. But unfortunately, as a single person, as an unfortunately, as a single person, as an unfortunately, as a single person, as an N of one, you don't have the luxury of N of one, you don't have the luxury of N of one, you don't have the luxury of infinite time to try everything, right? infinite time to try everything, right? infinite time to try everything, right? This has been an ongoing open question This has been an ongoing open question This has been an ongoing open question for me and I haven't yet used any of for me and I haven't yet used any of for me and I haven't yet used any of them, but looking at things like, okay, them, but looking at things like, okay, them, but looking at things like, okay, well, is is a strength finder test well, is is a strength finder test well, is is a strength finder test helpful for this? It's like could you do helpful for this? It's like could you do helpful for this? It's like could you do five or six of these and look for the five or six of these and look for the five or six of these and look for the overlap to try to get some direction so overlap to try to get some direction so overlap to try to get some direction so that you're not penalized for trial and that you're not penalized for trial and that you're not penalized for trial and error by losing decade after decade. error by losing decade after decade. error by losing decade after decade. Where I've landed for myself is Where I've landed for myself is Where I've landed for myself is through my own experimentation, I think through my own experimentation, I think through my own experimentation, I think asking a lot of dumb questions. I'm very asking a lot of dumb questions. I'm very asking a lot of dumb questions. I'm very good at asking seemingly dumb questions, good at asking seemingly dumb questions, good at asking seemingly dumb questions, which often are not dumb. Sometimes they which often are not dumb. Sometimes they which often are not dumb. Sometimes they are just straight up dumb, let's be are just straight up dumb, let's be are just straight up dumb, let's be honest. But often times they're honest. But often times they're honest. But often times they're questions that could be or already are questions that could be or already are questions that could be or already are on the minds of a lot of people. And I on the minds of a lot of people. And I on the minds of a lot of people. And I think I'm good at putting on beginners think I'm good at putting on beginners think I'm good at putting on beginners glasses and being very persistent like a glasses and being very persistent like a glasses and being very persistent like a dog with a bone if I don't get an answer dog with a bone if I don't get an answer dog with a bone if I don't get an answer to a supposedly dumb question. And those to a supposedly dumb question. And those to a supposedly dumb question. And those lead interesting places. I think I am lead interesting places. I think I am lead interesting places. I think I am also good and this is a blessing and a also good and this is a blessing and a also good and this is a blessing and a curse which will lead into some later curse which will lead into some later curse which will lead into some later questions about not getting trapped in questions about not getting trapped in questions about not getting trapped in various doom cycles and something we various doom cycles and something we various doom cycles and something we talked about before which is sort of the talked about before which is sort of the talked about before which is sort of the 50 3020 from respected faculty. 50 3020 from respected faculty. 50 3020 from respected faculty. I am a novelty seeker that's an I am a novelty seeker that's an I am a novelty seeker that's an intrinsic drive that I have in a lot of intrinsic drive that I have in a lot of intrinsic drive that I have in a lot of ways and the upside of that is that I ways and the upside of that is that I ways and the upside of that is that I can do angel investing in in different can do angel investing in in different can do angel investing in in different industries. I can interview people from industries. I can interview people from industries. I can interview people from yet a different set of worlds yet a different set of worlds yet a different set of worlds and I can borrow practices and copy and and I can borrow practices and copy and and I can borrow practices and copy and paste different principles from one area paste different principles from one area paste different principles from one area into a disperate area and sometimes into a disperate area and sometimes into a disperate area and sometimes those really really work. So I think I'm those really really work. So I think I'm those really really work. So I think I'm good at combining those worlds good at combining those worlds good at combining those worlds separately and maybe people listening separately and maybe people listening separately and maybe people listening can give me feedback if they're can give me feedback if they're can give me feedback if they're interested in this. A friend of mine, interested in this. A friend of mine, interested in this. A friend of mine, one of my closest friends said to me, one of my closest friends said to me, one of my closest friends said to me, you know, you should really do some you know, you should really do some you know, you should really do some podcast episodes where you are recording podcast episodes where you are recording podcast episodes where you are recording conversations that you have with conversations that you have with conversations that you have with founders because I've I've invested in founders because I've I've invested in founders because I've I've invested in 100 plus companies over more than a 100 plus companies over more than a 100 plus companies over more than a decade, probably close to two decades. decade, probably close to two decades. decade, probably close to two decades. And he said to me, he's like, "There are And he said to me, he's like, "There are And he said to me, he's like, "There are things that you are really good at that things that you are really good at that things that you are really good at that I don't think you realize you're good at I don't think you realize you're good at I don't think you realize you're good at in terms of really pinpointing terms, in terms of really pinpointing terms, in terms of really pinpointing terms, positioning, positioning, positioning, and various other things that I do and various other things that I do and various other things that I do routinely every week with startup routinely every week with startup routinely every week with startup founders anyway. I'm having those founders anyway. I'm having those founders anyway. I'm having those conversations anyway." And so I've been conversations anyway." And so I've been conversations anyway." And so I've been experimenting with recording those. experimenting with recording those. experimenting with recording those. >> And I even go back and listen to it and >> And I even go back and listen to it and >> And I even go back and listen to it and I'm like, "Yeah, I don't think there's I'm like, "Yeah, I don't think there's I'm like, "Yeah, I don't think there's anything special in here." And he's anything special in here." And he's anything special in here." And he's like, "That's the problem." He's like, like, "That's the problem." He's like, like, "That's the problem." He's like, "You don't think it's anything special "You don't think it's anything special "You don't think it's anything special because it's so easy for you." He's because it's so easy for you." He's because it's so easy for you." He's like, "It's actually not easy for most like, "It's actually not easy for most like, "It's actually not easy for most people." So, those are a few scattershot people." So, those are a few scattershot people." So, those are a few scattershot thoughts that come to mind, but for thoughts that come to mind, but for thoughts that come to mind, but for myself and certainly also for people myself and certainly also for people myself and certainly also for people listening, I I am still wondering if listening, I I am still wondering if listening, I I am still wondering if there are ways that people can there are ways that people can there are ways that people can facilitate the process of finding those facilitate the process of finding those facilitate the process of finding those encodings. So I was listening very encodings. So I was listening very encodings. So I was listening very carefully to what you're saying and a carefully to what you're saying and a carefully to what you're saying and a couple things really popped into my mind couple things really popped into my mind couple things really popped into my mind as as you were you were talking is that as as you were you were talking is that as as you were you were talking is that first of all I think if we reround well first of all I think if we reround well first of all I think if we reround well I did rewind the tape of their lives I did rewind the tape of their lives I did rewind the tape of their lives right and you know I wouldn't describe right and you know I wouldn't describe right and you know I wouldn't describe that the process of kind of coming into that the process of kind of coming into that the process of kind of coming into a frame with a set of encodings was a a frame with a set of encodings was a a frame with a set of encodings was a systematic process it was pretty organic systematic process it was pretty organic systematic process it was pretty organic and pretty messy if you will and I think and pretty messy if you will and I think and pretty messy if you will and I think the thing that really stood out is it the thing that really stood out is it the thing that really stood out is it wasn't that there was some kind of you wasn't that there was some kind of you wasn't that there was some kind of you know deliberate test taking or anything know deliberate test taking or anything know deliberate test taking or anything like at it was that light kind of spun like at it was that light kind of spun like at it was that light kind of spun them into a situation where them into a situation where them into a situation where they could feel the the encodings kind they could feel the the encodings kind they could feel the the encodings kind of light up if you will. And I think of light up if you will. And I think of light up if you will. And I think what really stood out the more I think what really stood out the more I think what really stood out the more I think about this the question is less about about this the question is less about about this the question is less about well there are two ways in which I want well there are two ways in which I want well there are two ways in which I want to kind of sharpen the question a little to kind of sharpen the question a little to kind of sharpen the question a little bit for you. One is is that it's not bit for you. One is is that it's not bit for you. One is is that it's not even entirely about discovering even entirely about discovering even entirely about discovering encodings. I think people are getting encodings. I think people are getting encodings. I think people are getting clues to their encodings based on their clues to their encodings based on their clues to their encodings based on their experiences in life and input from experiences in life and input from experiences in life and input from others, which is a very interesting others, which is a very interesting others, which is a very interesting piece of this all the time. piece of this all the time. piece of this all the time. >> What I think really stands out to me >> What I think really stands out to me >> What I think really stands out to me about the people that I studied is that about the people that I studied is that about the people that I studied is that regardless of whether they got support regardless of whether they got support regardless of whether they got support from others, like John Glenn's parents from others, like John Glenn's parents from others, like John Glenn's parents didn't want him to be a pilot and they didn't want him to be a pilot and they didn't want him to be a pilot and they wanted him to be in the family business wanted him to be in the family business wanted him to be in the family business or be a doctor, Robert Plant's parents or be a doctor, Robert Plant's parents or be a doctor, Robert Plant's parents didn't want him to be a singer, they didn't want him to be a singer, they didn't want him to be a singer, they wanted him to be an accountant. Think wanted him to be an accountant. Think wanted him to be an accountant. Think about that. I mean with all that I mean about that. I mean with all that I mean about that. I mean with all that I mean you know you go through these these you know you go through these these you know you go through these these different ones. What really stood out is different ones. What really stood out is different ones. What really stood out is that when they got a sense for them they that when they got a sense for them they that when they got a sense for them they trusted them. It was their trust of them trusted them. It was their trust of them trusted them. It was their trust of them when they got a glimpse of them. That is when they got a glimpse of them. That is when they got a glimpse of them. That is what really stood out to me. They once what really stood out to me. They once what really stood out to me. They once they felt them they didn't really start they felt them they didn't really start they felt them they didn't really start questioning them or let other people questioning them or let other people questioning them or let other people talk them out of them or listen to what talk them out of them or listen to what talk them out of them or listen to what other people think they should do. And other people think they should do. And other people think they should do. And so if you said Jim 100 points allocate so if you said Jim 100 points allocate so if you said Jim 100 points allocate between two buckets. How much of it is between two buckets. How much of it is between two buckets. How much of it is about discovering a set of encodings and about discovering a set of encodings and about discovering a set of encodings and how much of it is it about trusting the how much of it is it about trusting the how much of it is it about trusting the encodings you've discovered? I'm going encodings you've discovered? I'm going encodings you've discovered? I'm going to put 70 points on trust because I to put 70 points on trust because I to put 70 points on trust because I think we're getting clues all the time. think we're getting clues all the time. think we're getting clues all the time. The second is that you said something The second is that you said something The second is that you said something about asking people what you think you about asking people what you think you about asking people what you think you do better than others. do better than others. do better than others. >> This study changed my view on that. I >> This study changed my view on that. I >> This study changed my view on that. I think it's about doubling down on what think it's about doubling down on what think it's about doubling down on what you can do better than other ways you you can do better than other ways you you can do better than other ways you could expend yourself. could expend yourself. could expend yourself. >> Mhm. which is a very different question. >> Mhm. which is a very different question. >> Mhm. which is a very different question. >> Yeah, it's very different. It's a very >> Yeah, it's very different. It's a very >> Yeah, it's very different. It's a very different question. It's like I could different question. It's like I could different question. It's like I could expend myself asking these supposedly expend myself asking these supposedly expend myself asking these supposedly dumb questions or I could expend myself, dumb questions or I could expend myself, dumb questions or I could expend myself, you know, in some other way. And it's you know, in some other way. And it's you know, in some other way. And it's not competitive comparative to others. not competitive comparative to others. not competitive comparative to others. It's this is in frame and this is out of It's this is in frame and this is out of It's this is in frame and this is out of frame. And then I have learned something frame. And then I have learned something frame. And then I have learned something in my own experience. This book is not in my own experience. This book is not in my own experience. This book is not about business. It's not about about business. It's not about about business. It's not about leadership. It's not about management. leadership. It's not about management. leadership. It's not about management. There's a few ways though that it's There's a few ways though that it's There's a few ways though that it's really affected me a lot when I think really affected me a lot when I think really affected me a lot when I think back to my prior my classic work and one back to my prior my classic work and one back to my prior my classic work and one way that it has really affected me is we way that it has really affected me is we way that it has really affected me is we talk about the right people on the bus talk about the right people on the bus talk about the right people on the bus from good to great still true but what from good to great still true but what from good to great still true but what I've really come to see is it's about I've really come to see is it's about I've really come to see is it's about the seats and whether people are in the seats and whether people are in the seats and whether people are in seats where they're in frame in that seats where they're in frame in that seats where they're in frame in that seat whether they are in a seat for seat whether they are in a seat for seat whether they are in a seat for which they are encoded for that seat and which they are encoded for that seat and which they are encoded for that seat and in a seat that feeds their fire and As I in a seat that feeds their fire and As I in a seat that feeds their fire and As I began to study the people in in my work, began to study the people in in my work, began to study the people in in my work, what I found is that they gravitated what I found is that they gravitated what I found is that they gravitated towards some walk of life, some arena of towards some walk of life, some arena of towards some walk of life, some arena of activity where they really hit a big activity where they really hit a big activity where they really hit a big bright set of their encodings. It really bright set of their encodings. It really bright set of their encodings. It really fed their fire and then they just kind fed their fire and then they just kind fed their fire and then they just kind of went once they kind of clicked into of went once they kind of clicked into of went once they kind of clicked into frame. And I think that I used to spend frame. And I think that I used to spend frame. And I think that I used to spend a lot of time trying to turn people into a lot of time trying to turn people into a lot of time trying to turn people into what they're not and feeling very what they're not and feeling very what they're not and feeling very frustrated with what they're not. And as frustrated with what they're not. And as frustrated with what they're not. And as I did this study, one of the things that I did this study, one of the things that I did this study, one of the things that just really went over me like water and just really went over me like water and just really went over me like water and like just softening me and softening me like just softening me and softening me like just softening me and softening me and softening me is I began to realize and softening me is I began to realize and softening me is I began to realize that what I really had to learn how to that what I really had to learn how to that what I really had to learn how to do was to begin to find do was to begin to find do was to begin to find what the people around me what their what the people around me what their what the people around me what their encodings are. me for people on my team. encodings are. me for people on my team. encodings are. me for people on my team. Part of my responsibility as a leader of Part of my responsibility as a leader of Part of my responsibility as a leader of a small bus is to really be attuned to a small bus is to really be attuned to a small bus is to really be attuned to me observing the encodings based upon me observing the encodings based upon me observing the encodings based upon what people do of the people around me what people do of the people around me what people do of the people around me and then to begin to shift in steps and then to begin to shift in steps and then to begin to shift in steps their responsibility so that in what their responsibility so that in what their responsibility so that in what they're doing here is increasingly they're doing here is increasingly they're doing here is increasingly clicking into frame so that then what clicking into frame so that then what clicking into frame so that then what happens is my emotional experience is happens is my emotional experience is happens is my emotional experience is not being frustrated with what they're not being frustrated with what they're not being frustrated with what they're not and truly being almost at a level of not and truly being almost at a level of not and truly being almost at a level of almost awe grateful for what they are. almost awe grateful for what they are. almost awe grateful for what they are. And when that happened, their lives got And when that happened, their lives got And when that happened, their lives got better, my life got better, and I played better, my life got better, and I played better, my life got better, and I played a role in helping them discover their a role in helping them discover their a role in helping them discover their encodings, mainly by experiments, like encodings, mainly by experiments, like encodings, mainly by experiments, like testing them with something, see how testing them with something, see how testing them with something, see how something works, right? And then I could something works, right? And then I could something works, right? And then I could see the encoding flash, and then I'd see the encoding flash, and then I'd see the encoding flash, and then I'd move the responsibility, and I'd click move the responsibility, and I'd click move the responsibility, and I'd click them some into frame. And it's been a them some into frame. And it's been a them some into frame. And it's been a marvelous joyful journey to see that marvelous joyful journey to see that marvelous joyful journey to see that happen. And I have people who are in happen. And I have people who are in happen. And I have people who are in frame and they just it's astounding for frame and they just it's astounding for frame and they just it's astounding for me to see. And so I think that notion of me to see. And so I think that notion of me to see. And so I think that notion of other people, but I'd flip it around other people, but I'd flip it around other people, but I'd flip it around which anybody who has teams, which anybody who has teams, which anybody who has teams, anyone who leads organizations or anyone who leads organizations or anyone who leads organizations or companies, companies, companies, if you spend emotional energy feeling if you spend emotional energy feeling if you spend emotional energy feeling frustrated with what people are not, frustrated with what people are not, frustrated with what people are not, you've got them in the wrong seat. you've got them in the wrong seat. you've got them in the wrong seat. They're out of frame. And the question They're out of frame. And the question They're out of frame. And the question is, if you have a bus issue, you deal is, if you have a bus issue, you deal is, if you have a bus issue, you deal with it. they're not they shouldn't be with it. they're not they shouldn't be with it. they're not they shouldn't be on the bus. But the real question could on the bus. But the real question could on the bus. But the real question could be you have them in a seat for which be you have them in a seat for which be you have them in a seat for which they that doesn't line up with their they that doesn't line up with their they that doesn't line up with their encodings that doesn't feed their inner encodings that doesn't feed their inner encodings that doesn't feed their inner fire. And if you try to spend your life fire. And if you try to spend your life fire. And if you try to spend your life trying to turn them into what they're trying to turn them into what they're trying to turn them into what they're not, they'll be miserable and you'll be not, they'll be miserable and you'll be not, they'll be miserable and you'll be miserable. miserable. miserable. And I think you other people can really And I think you other people can really And I think you other people can really play a role in helping you see what play a role in helping you see what play a role in helping you see what those encodings are. I've had number of those encodings are. I've had number of those encodings are. I've had number of friends who run large companies who and friends who run large companies who and friends who run large companies who and not not to say this is the right tool not not to say this is the right tool not not to say this is the right tool for everyone but who've used any for everyone but who've used any for everyone but who've used any actually as a sort of huristic. actually as a sort of huristic. actually as a sort of huristic. >> What's your point on the anagram? >> What's your point on the anagram? >> What's your point on the anagram? >> Which type am I or what's my perspective >> Which type am I or what's my perspective >> Which type am I or what's my perspective on it? on it? on it? >> Both. >> Both. >> Both. >> Have you identified an anagram point for >> Have you identified an anagram point for >> Have you identified an anagram point for yourself? yourself? yourself? >> I'm a self-preservation six which >> I'm a self-preservation six which >> I'm a self-preservation six which >> honestly >> honestly >> honestly >> I'm married to a >> I'm married to a >> I'm married to a >> There you go. It resonates for me. I >> There you go. It resonates for me. I >> There you go. It resonates for me. I have a bunch of caveats that I'm about have a bunch of caveats that I'm about have a bunch of caveats that I'm about to put out, but it resonates for me. I to put out, but it resonates for me. I to put out, but it resonates for me. I have found it to greatly inform doing a have found it to greatly inform doing a have found it to greatly inform doing a post-mortem on things and people who post-mortem on things and people who post-mortem on things and people who have not worked in my organization. have not worked in my organization. have not worked in my organization. Organization is a very high flutin term Organization is a very high flutin term Organization is a very high flutin term for a very very small team and people for a very very small team and people for a very very small team and people who have worked over time. There are, I who have worked over time. There are, I who have worked over time. There are, I would say, would say, would say, to my mind, irrefutable patterns. Like, to my mind, irrefutable patterns. Like, to my mind, irrefutable patterns. Like, it's so clear the types that work and it's so clear the types that work and it's so clear the types that work and the types that don't. And there's no the types that don't. And there's no the types that don't. And there's no right or wrong. It's just for me as a right or wrong. It's just for me as a right or wrong. It's just for me as a strong willed, hopefully decent leader, strong willed, hopefully decent leader, strong willed, hopefully decent leader, but at the same time very demanding but at the same time very demanding but at the same time very demanding person with certain preferences and so person with certain preferences and so person with certain preferences and so on. There are certain people on the bus on. There are certain people on the bus on. There are certain people on the bus who work and certain people who don't, who work and certain people who don't, who work and certain people who don't, and anyagram I found very helpful for and anyagram I found very helpful for and anyagram I found very helpful for that. I think Shopify and Dropbox both I that. I think Shopify and Dropbox both I that. I think Shopify and Dropbox both I think still use enagram as two examples think still use enagram as two examples think still use enagram as two examples but very good for conflict resolution as but very good for conflict resolution as but very good for conflict resolution as well. The the caveat is sometimes I well. The the caveat is sometimes I well. The the caveat is sometimes I think at least say in Silicon Valley think at least say in Silicon Valley think at least say in Silicon Valley that anyagram is an acceptable horoscope that anyagram is an acceptable horoscope that anyagram is an acceptable horoscope for tech guys. Um, for tech guys. Um, for tech guys. Um, I mean it definitely rhymes in some I mean it definitely rhymes in some I mean it definitely rhymes in some ways, but when I read my particular ways, but when I read my particular ways, but when I read my particular and it's helpful to have a person who is and it's helpful to have a person who is and it's helpful to have a person who is experienced with typing do this. I'm experienced with typing do this. I'm experienced with typing do this. I'm sure there are online tools that can sure there are online tools that can sure there are online tools that can also help. Side note, also found this also help. Side note, also found this also help. Side note, also found this incredibly helpful. People are going to incredibly helpful. People are going to incredibly helpful. People are going to hate this. Some people are going to hate hate this. Some people are going to hate hate this. Some people are going to hate this, but for thinking about dating and this, but for thinking about dating and this, but for thinking about dating and ultimately ending up with a woman who is ultimately ending up with a woman who is ultimately ending up with a woman who is an incredibly incredibly good match for an incredibly incredibly good match for an incredibly incredibly good match for me and vice versa, I'm a good match for me and vice versa, I'm a good match for me and vice versa, I'm a good match for her, her, her, >> but the enagram was dead on. I was like, >> but the enagram was dead on. I was like, >> but the enagram was dead on. I was like, this is nonsense for the like I just this is nonsense for the like I just this is nonsense for the like I just don't believe it can be that simple. And don't believe it can be that simple. And don't believe it can be that simple. And it's not that simple, but incredibly it's not that simple, but incredibly it's not that simple, but incredibly helpful. So I would say there are some helpful. So I would say there are some helpful. So I would say there are some people who go down the rabbit hole to an people who go down the rabbit hole to an people who go down the rabbit hole to an extent that I think ends up turning extent that I think ends up turning extent that I think ends up turning everything into an enagram exercise. I everything into an enagram exercise. I everything into an enagram exercise. I think that's probably losing the forest think that's probably losing the forest think that's probably losing the forest for trees. But as one input of many, for trees. But as one input of many, for trees. But as one input of many, I've I've found it helpful. And let me I've I've found it helpful. And let me I've I've found it helpful. And let me ask you a question for for you ask you a question for for you ask you a question for for you personally, and this could also be personally, and this could also be personally, and this could also be reflected in people in the book, but for reflected in people in the book, but for reflected in people in the book, but for you, this is one of the 7,000 highlights you, this is one of the 7,000 highlights you, this is one of the 7,000 highlights I had from this morning over my several I had from this morning over my several I had from this morning over my several cups of coffee. cups of coffee. cups of coffee. >> So, this is I I can't recall if this is >> So, this is I I can't recall if this is >> So, this is I I can't recall if this is from our first or second conversation, from our first or second conversation, from our first or second conversation, but let me just read for a second here. but let me just read for a second here. but let me just read for a second here. All right. Well, here here's the the All right. Well, here here's the the All right. Well, here here's the the recap. Jim was clear that he didn't want recap. Jim was clear that he didn't want recap. Jim was clear that he didn't want a half-life of quality in his work. I'll a half-life of quality in his work. I'll a half-life of quality in his work. I'll skip forward a little bit. When he was skip forward a little bit. When he was skip forward a little bit. When he was invisible at Stanford, he could do deep invisible at Stanford, he could do deep invisible at Stanford, he could do deep work and long cycles of reflection for work and long cycles of reflection for work and long cycles of reflection for six years. He worried that if he became six years. He worried that if he became six years. He worried that if he became visible, he might wake up years later visible, he might wake up years later visible, he might wake up years later and realize his subsequent books were and realize his subsequent books were and realize his subsequent books were only half as good because he hadn't only half as good because he hadn't only half as good because he hadn't returned to the wellspring of quiet returned to the wellspring of quiet returned to the wellspring of quiet solitude. solitude. solitude. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Separate note, people should listen to >> Separate note, people should listen to >> Separate note, people should listen to these conversations, but one of the these conversations, but one of the these conversations, but one of the commonalities of your plus two days in commonalities of your plus two days in commonalities of your plus two days in your spreadsheets were either, I your spreadsheets were either, I your spreadsheets were either, I believe, intense solitude or highly believe, intense solitude or highly believe, intense solitude or highly socialized, but very little in between. socialized, but very little in between. socialized, but very little in between. All right, coming back to what I was All right, coming back to what I was All right, coming back to what I was reading. He wanted quality to get reading. He wanted quality to get reading. He wanted quality to get better. Here's the part that I better. Here's the part that I better. Here's the part that I underlined. He asked respected faculty, underlined. He asked respected faculty, underlined. He asked respected faculty, this is at Stanford, how they spent this is at Stanford, how they spent this is at Stanford, how they spent their time and got a consistent answer. their time and got a consistent answer. their time and got a consistent answer. 50 30 20. 50 30 20. 50 30 20. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And to elaborate on that, it's pretty >> And to elaborate on that, it's pretty >> And to elaborate on that, it's pretty simple. 50% equals new intellectual simple. 50% equals new intellectual simple. 50% equals new intellectual creative work. 30% equals teaching. 20% creative work. 30% equals teaching. 20% creative work. 30% equals teaching. 20% equals other stuff, committees, etc. equals other stuff, committees, etc. equals other stuff, committees, etc. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Okay. And you organized your life and >> Okay. And you organized your life and >> Okay. And you organized your life and tallying things. I do still to this day tallying things. I do still to this day tallying things. I do still to this day >> and you still do that. So people should >> and you still do that. So people should >> and you still do that. So people should listen to our prior conversations on listen to our prior conversations on listen to our prior conversations on that. But this 50% new intellectual that. But this 50% new intellectual that. But this 50% new intellectual creative work, 30% teaching, 20% other creative work, 30% teaching, 20% other creative work, 30% teaching, 20% other stuff, committees, etc. And this might stuff, committees, etc. And this might stuff, committees, etc. And this might feed into the going to screw up the feed into the going to screw up the feed into the going to screw up the exact terminology, but the sort of doom exact terminology, but the sort of doom exact terminology, but the sort of doom cycle of competence or or whatever it cycle of competence or or whatever it cycle of competence or or whatever it might be. What I found is one of the might be. What I found is one of the might be. What I found is one of the penalties of being a novelty seeker is penalties of being a novelty seeker is penalties of being a novelty seeker is that sometimes I will get pulled into that sometimes I will get pulled into that sometimes I will get pulled into things that I am quite good at. They things that I am quite good at. They things that I am quite good at. They could be new, they could be older, that could be new, they could be older, that could be new, they could be older, that do not align super strongly with my do not align super strongly with my do not align super strongly with my encodings, right? Y and so the days end encodings, right? Y and so the days end encodings, right? Y and so the days end up being very choppy. In other words, up being very choppy. In other words, up being very choppy. In other words, I'm doing a lot of management stuff. I'm doing a lot of management stuff. I'm doing a lot of management stuff. Maybe I've said yes to a speaking Maybe I've said yes to a speaking Maybe I've said yes to a speaking engagement I regret. Maybe I've invested engagement I regret. Maybe I've invested engagement I regret. Maybe I've invested in a few too many startups and all of a in a few too many startups and all of a in a few too many startups and all of a sudden I'm on Zoom calls when I'm sudden I'm on Zoom calls when I'm sudden I'm on Zoom calls when I'm quietly grinding my teeth because I feel quietly grinding my teeth because I feel quietly grinding my teeth because I feel like I should be working on a book like I should be working on a book like I should be working on a book project etc etc. And my question is a project etc etc. And my question is a project etc etc. And my question is a have you ever succumbed to this type of have you ever succumbed to this type of have you ever succumbed to this type of gravitational pull to other things where gravitational pull to other things where gravitational pull to other things where you end up kind of managing more than you end up kind of managing more than you end up kind of managing more than making perhaps making perhaps making perhaps >> and then separately if that's true how >> and then separately if that's true how >> and then separately if that's true how have you corrected course have you corrected course have you corrected course >> there's kind of two aspects of how I >> there's kind of two aspects of how I >> there's kind of two aspects of how I have really struggled getting pulled have really struggled getting pulled have really struggled getting pulled first of all just way earlier in my life first of all just way earlier in my life first of all just way earlier in my life I I was very close to you know I was I I was very close to you know I was I I was very close to you know I was getting pulled into things that I was getting pulled into things that I was getting pulled into things that I was not going to be coded for. And not going to be coded for. And not going to be coded for. And fortunately, by a series of really good fortunately, by a series of really good fortunately, by a series of really good events and choices, I ended up very much events and choices, I ended up very much events and choices, I ended up very much in frame. But if id stayed too long in frame. But if id stayed too long in frame. But if id stayed too long doing some of those things or taken some doing some of those things or taken some doing some of those things or taken some opportunities that were very glittering opportunities that were very glittering opportunities that were very glittering opportunities that my life may have opportunities that my life may have opportunities that my life may have taken a very different path, I think I taken a very different path, I think I taken a very different path, I think I would have ended up successful and out would have ended up successful and out would have ended up successful and out of frame and I think that that would of frame and I think that that would of frame and I think that that would have been an unfortunate outcome. I have been an unfortunate outcome. I have been an unfortunate outcome. I think that so the two areas that I've think that so the two areas that I've think that so the two areas that I've had to work with and I eventually had to work with and I eventually had to work with and I eventually finally got my way to both to succeed at finally got my way to both to succeed at finally got my way to both to succeed at both of them. The second one was harder. both of them. The second one was harder. both of them. The second one was harder. First one was that you're right about First one was that you're right about First one was that you're right about that thing about visibility. that thing about visibility. that thing about visibility. I was always prepared for failure. I was always prepared for failure. I was always prepared for failure. I was not prepared for success. I was not prepared for success. I was not prepared for success. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And when success came, it surprised me. >> And when success came, it surprised me. >> And when success came, it surprised me. Number one, I was like, you know, okay, Number one, I was like, you know, okay, Number one, I was like, you know, okay, I was prepared for the catastrophe on I was prepared for the catastrophe on I was prepared for the catastrophe on the other side. I didn't expect this to the other side. I didn't expect this to the other side. I didn't expect this to be coming and now I got to deal with all be coming and now I got to deal with all be coming and now I got to deal with all this stuff coming at me. And all of a this stuff coming at me. And all of a this stuff coming at me. And all of a sudden you have all these wonderful sudden you have all these wonderful sudden you have all these wonderful things. Some of them maybe not so things. Some of them maybe not so things. Some of them maybe not so wonderful, but they're all coming at wonderful, but they're all coming at wonderful, but they're all coming at you, right? And you have all these all you, right? And you have all these all you, right? And you have all these all these voices and and people and these voices and and people and these voices and and people and opportunities and glittering things that opportunities and glittering things that opportunities and glittering things that that could pull you out of what you're that could pull you out of what you're that could pull you out of what you're really encoded for because of all this really encoded for because of all this really encoded for because of all this wonderful opportunity and noise coming wonderful opportunity and noise coming wonderful opportunity and noise coming at you. And early in that sort of at you. And early in that sort of at you. And early in that sort of reeling from the su I was in sort of a reeling from the su I was in sort of a reeling from the su I was in sort of a fog of success phase and I was I was fog of success phase and I was I was fog of success phase and I was I was really trying to sort through like how I really trying to sort through like how I really trying to sort through like how I would allocate my time and I was kind of would allocate my time and I was kind of would allocate my time and I was kind of reeling on my back feet and I would say reeling on my back feet and I would say reeling on my back feet and I would say yes to things that later that today I yes to things that later that today I yes to things that later that today I would never in a million years say yes would never in a million years say yes would never in a million years say yes to but I did whether it be involving too to but I did whether it be involving too to but I did whether it be involving too much travel or whatever sorts of things much travel or whatever sorts of things much travel or whatever sorts of things but I began to realize man my whole life but I began to realize man my whole life but I began to realize man my whole life could be sucked away accepting could be sucked away accepting could be sucked away accepting opportunities and so I had to really opportunities and so I had to really opportunities and so I had to really fight that and to eventually just kind fight that and to eventually just kind fight that and to eventually just kind of clamp it all down, but to do it in a of clamp it all down, but to do it in a of clamp it all down, but to do it in a really systematic and disciplined way. really systematic and disciplined way. really systematic and disciplined way. And that's when I started counting my And that's when I started counting my And that's when I started counting my hours, right? I basically just like I hours, right? I basically just like I hours, right? I basically just like I got to have above a thousand creative got to have above a thousand creative got to have above a thousand creative hours every 365 day cycle every single hours every 365 day cycle every single hours every 365 day cycle every single day looking back for 50 years without a day looking back for 50 years without a day looking back for 50 years without a miss, right? I just set that I will not miss, right? I just set that I will not miss, right? I just set that I will not ever break it. And and then the other ever break it. And and then the other ever break it. And and then the other was to begin using very very disciplined was to begin using very very disciplined was to begin using very very disciplined mechanisms for what I would say yes to. mechanisms for what I would say yes to. mechanisms for what I would say yes to. We have a punch card system as something We have a punch card system as something We have a punch card system as something that I, you know, was very impressed by that I, you know, was very impressed by that I, you know, was very impressed by Warren Buffett's view of the world, Warren Buffett's view of the world, Warren Buffett's view of the world, which is, you know, any use of you is an which is, you know, any use of you is an which is, you know, any use of you is an investment. It's a punch and you can't investment. It's a punch and you can't investment. It's a punch and you can't get it back. And so when we're laying get it back. And so when we're laying get it back. And so when we're laying out for the year what sorts of things I out for the year what sorts of things I out for the year what sorts of things I will say yes to, we literally have every will say yes to, we literally have every will say yes to, we literally have every year we we will be talking, well, what's year we we will be talking, well, what's year we we will be talking, well, what's the punch card look like? How many the punch card look like? How many the punch card look like? How many punches are left? And it's not a punches are left? And it's not a punches are left? And it's not a question if somebody calls up and says, question if somebody calls up and says, question if somebody calls up and says, are you free to give a speech on October are you free to give a speech on October are you free to give a speech on October 17? It's irrelevant whether I'm free to 17? It's irrelevant whether I'm free to 17? It's irrelevant whether I'm free to give a speech on October 17. The give a speech on October 17. The give a speech on October 17. The relevant question is do I have any relevant question is do I have any relevant question is do I have any punches left? That's the first question. punches left? That's the first question. punches left? That's the first question. Or how many punches are left? And we Or how many punches are left? And we Or how many punches are left? And we limit them. We limit them tightly. And limit them. We limit them tightly. And limit them. We limit them tightly. And so that became another way of like it's so that became another way of like it's so that became another way of like it's punches. It's punches and they go away. punches. It's punches and they go away. punches. It's punches and they go away. And one thing I've learned I've come to And one thing I've learned I've come to And one thing I've learned I've come to see now at age 68, life is the ultimate see now at age 68, life is the ultimate see now at age 68, life is the ultimate punch card. I mean, think about it, punch card. I mean, think about it, punch card. I mean, think about it, right? So you're 48. If any given right? So you're 48. If any given right? So you're 48. If any given goodsized project is call it a five-year goodsized project is call it a five-year goodsized project is call it a five-year project, you got a bunch of fiveyear project, you got a bunch of fiveyear project, you got a bunch of fiveyear punches left. I'm 68. punches left. I'm 68. punches left. I'm 68. I probably have really good health, but I probably have really good health, but I probably have really good health, but I know the number of punches that I have I know the number of punches that I have I know the number of punches that I have left is a lower number than yours. And left is a lower number than yours. And left is a lower number than yours. And and so life is the ultimate punch card, and so life is the ultimate punch card, and so life is the ultimate punch card, right? And if you end up spending 5 right? And if you end up spending 5 right? And if you end up spending 5 years or 10 years, years or 10 years, years or 10 years, you know, pulled away from what you're you know, pulled away from what you're you know, pulled away from what you're really encoded for in some way because really encoded for in some way because really encoded for in some way because of whatever sets of reasons, you can't of whatever sets of reasons, you can't of whatever sets of reasons, you can't get that punch back. And so I began a get that punch back. And so I began a get that punch back. And so I began a punch card process and that's how I how punch card process and that's how I how punch card process and that's how I how I managed that. But then the other goes I managed that. But then the other goes I managed that. But then the other goes back to what we were talking about back to what we were talking about back to what we were talking about earlier. earlier. earlier. >> Could I pause for one second? Please >> Could I pause for one second? Please >> Could I pause for one second? Please don't lose your train of thought. But don't lose your train of thought. But don't lose your train of thought. But for the punch cards, are those on a for the punch cards, are those on a for the punch cards, are those on a category bycategory basis? In other category bycategory basis? In other category bycategory basis? In other words, or for example, words, or for example, words, or for example, >> speaking engagements, I'll only do five >> speaking engagements, I'll only do five >> speaking engagements, I'll only do five speaking engagements per year. They need speaking engagements per year. They need speaking engagements per year. They need to be within X number of hours of my to be within X number of hours of my to be within X number of hours of my home. Is it on a category bycategory home. Is it on a category bycategory home. Is it on a category bycategory basis? basis? basis? >> The way we've done it, it's taken us a >> The way we've done it, it's taken us a >> The way we've done it, it's taken us a few years iterating on the exact few years iterating on the exact few years iterating on the exact process, but every week we calculate the process, but every week we calculate the process, but every week we calculate the punch card. And the way it works is we punch card. And the way it works is we punch card. And the way it works is we have a point system. And the way the have a point system. And the way the have a point system. And the way the point system works is, point system works is, point system works is, you know, if I'm going to do an you know, if I'm going to do an you know, if I'm going to do an engagement that involves an airplane, engagement that involves an airplane, engagement that involves an airplane, it costs more points. If I'm going to do it costs more points. If I'm going to do it costs more points. If I'm going to do a virtual presentation from here, it a virtual presentation from here, it a virtual presentation from here, it costs fewer points. If I'm going to do costs fewer points. If I'm going to do costs fewer points. If I'm going to do an intense, we have these lab sessions an intense, we have these lab sessions an intense, we have these lab sessions where people bring their executive team where people bring their executive team where people bring their executive team to Boulder for 2 days and be essentially to Boulder for 2 days and be essentially to Boulder for 2 days and be essentially grilled by me for two days. If it's grilled by me for two days. If it's grilled by me for two days. If it's going to be one of those, that actually, going to be one of those, that actually, going to be one of those, that actually, even though it's in Boulder, it actually even though it's in Boulder, it actually even though it's in Boulder, it actually takes a fair number of points because takes a fair number of points because takes a fair number of points because the intensity of it is so high. And so the intensity of it is so high. And so the intensity of it is so high. And so what we've done is we've kind of what we've done is we've kind of what we've done is we've kind of basically kind of use a numerical sense basically kind of use a numerical sense basically kind of use a numerical sense and then in any given period of time and then in any given period of time and then in any given period of time there's only so many points. So if I end there's only so many points. So if I end there's only so many points. So if I end up agreeing to do a commitment in up agreeing to do a commitment in up agreeing to do a commitment in London, I'm just going to blow like the London, I'm just going to blow like the London, I'm just going to blow like the equivalent of three punches. equivalent of three punches. equivalent of three punches. >> It's like a reverse frequent flyer >> It's like a reverse frequent flyer >> It's like a reverse frequent flyer program. program. program. >> Oh yeah. Exactly. Exactly. >> Oh yeah. Exactly. Exactly. >> Oh yeah. Exactly. Exactly. >> You just get points subtracted. >> You just get points subtracted. >> You just get points subtracted. >> Exactly. And so that's how we do it. And >> Exactly. And so that's how we do it. And >> Exactly. And so that's how we do it. And then we always have a running kind of then we always have a running kind of then we always have a running kind of what the total of the punch card is. And what the total of the punch card is. And what the total of the punch card is. And there's, you know, it doesn't have to there's, you know, it doesn't have to there's, you know, it doesn't have to hit the exact number at a given time, hit the exact number at a given time, hit the exact number at a given time, but you can't start going over. It's but you can't start going over. It's but you can't start going over. It's okay if you get to the end of the year okay if you get to the end of the year okay if you get to the end of the year and you haven't spent all your punches. and you haven't spent all your punches. and you haven't spent all your punches. What's bad is if you get to the end of What's bad is if you get to the end of What's bad is if you get to the end of the year and you did twice as many as the year and you did twice as many as the year and you did twice as many as you should have. And so our you should have. And so our you should have. And so our conversations are always everything is conversations are always everything is conversations are always everything is in the context of where's the punch in the context of where's the punch in the context of where's the punch card? Like there's only one and a half card? Like there's only one and a half card? Like there's only one and a half points left on the punch card. points left on the punch card. points left on the punch card. >> So when you and your team are turning >> So when you and your team are turning >> So when you and your team are turning something down because you're lower on something down because you're lower on something down because you're lower on points. points. points. >> Well, we turn things down sort of all >> Well, we turn things down sort of all >> Well, we turn things down sort of all the time. Do they say we're very sorry the time. Do they say we're very sorry the time. Do they say we're very sorry but Jim is out of points or do they say but Jim is out of points or do they say but Jim is out of points or do they say sorry Jim has reached his maximum a sorry Jim has reached his maximum a sorry Jim has reached his maximum a lotment of commitments? Actually it's a lotment of commitments? Actually it's a lotment of commitments? Actually it's a real question. What is the language that real question. What is the language that real question. What is the language that you use for those polite declines? you use for those polite declines? you use for those polite declines? >> So first of all I have absolutely people >> So first of all I have absolutely people >> So first of all I have absolutely people totally in frame doing things that totally in frame doing things that totally in frame doing things that they're incredibly encoded for. And one they're incredibly encoded for. And one they're incredibly encoded for. And one of the people on my team is a person who of the people on my team is a person who of the people on my team is a person who is incredibly encoded to build is incredibly encoded to build is incredibly encoded to build relationships and make friends and to relationships and make friends and to relationships and make friends and to learn a lot and then to help me think. learn a lot and then to help me think. learn a lot and then to help me think. And this person who's been with me now And this person who's been with me now And this person who's been with me now for quite a number of years. What she for quite a number of years. What she for quite a number of years. What she does that's so marvelous is that does that's so marvelous is that does that's so marvelous is that everything begins with making a friend everything begins with making a friend everything begins with making a friend and building a relationship in and building a relationship in and building a relationship in everything we do. And as part of that, everything we do. And as part of that, everything we do. And as part of that, we're always thinking ahead to the fact we're always thinking ahead to the fact we're always thinking ahead to the fact that we're likely to say no. And all that we're likely to say no. And all that we're likely to say no. And all just statistically, we're almost just statistically, we're almost just statistically, we're almost certainly likely going to say no to certainly likely going to say no to certainly likely going to say no to almost everything that comes through. almost everything that comes through. almost everything that comes through. And so by establishing a relationship And so by establishing a relationship And so by establishing a relationship and friendship and setting expectations and friendship and setting expectations and friendship and setting expectations right out of the gate, the odds that Jim right out of the gate, the odds that Jim right out of the gate, the odds that Jim will be able to do this are very, very will be able to do this are very, very will be able to do this are very, very low. You should know that at the very low. You should know that at the very low. You should know that at the very beginning of this conversation. So, beginning of this conversation. So, beginning of this conversation. So, we're thinking ahead to preserving the we're thinking ahead to preserving the we're thinking ahead to preserving the sense of relationship when we say no sense of relationship when we say no sense of relationship when we say no from the very beginning of how the from the very beginning of how the from the very beginning of how the conversation begins. And then this conversation begins. And then this conversation begins. And then this person helps the person on the other end person helps the person on the other end person helps the person on the other end understand Jim has a punch card understand Jim has a punch card understand Jim has a punch card and so that he can focus on his research and so that he can focus on his research and so that he can focus on his research and his writing. It's a limited punch and his writing. It's a limited punch and his writing. It's a limited punch card and I have to set expectations that card and I have to set expectations that card and I have to set expectations that there just aren't very many spots on it. there just aren't very many spots on it. there just aren't very many spots on it. And then once we've sort of established And then once we've sort of established And then once we've sort of established all that then there's a conversation all that then there's a conversation all that then there's a conversation about what what the event is, what the about what what the event is, what the about what what the event is, what the invitation is, etc. And then we have our invitation is, etc. And then we have our invitation is, etc. And then we have our conversations and then the communication conversations and then the communication conversations and then the communication will come back as in most cases a no, a will come back as in most cases a no, a will come back as in most cases a no, a few cases a yes where we will say, you few cases a yes where we will say, you few cases a yes where we will say, you know, we're unable for Jim to be able to know, we're unable for Jim to be able to know, we're unable for Jim to be able to join you. Punch card constraints. And join you. Punch card constraints. And join you. Punch card constraints. And that's just very real. But they've been that's just very real. But they've been that's just very real. But they've been prepared for that right from the get-go. prepared for that right from the get-go. prepared for that right from the get-go. Because we want people to walk away Because we want people to walk away Because we want people to walk away feeling better, no matter what answer feeling better, no matter what answer feeling better, no matter what answer they get, we want them to walk away they get, we want them to walk away they get, we want them to walk away feeling better about us than before they feeling better about us than before they feeling better about us than before they ever reached out to us, even though ever reached out to us, even though ever reached out to us, even though they're likely to get a disappointing they're likely to get a disappointing they're likely to get a disappointing answer. And then in some cases I will answer. And then in some cases I will answer. And then in some cases I will follow up. Not all cases because I follow up. Not all cases because I follow up. Not all cases because I couldn't do it for all but for some I couldn't do it for all but for some I couldn't do it for all but for some I will personally record a voice memo for will personally record a voice memo for will personally record a voice memo for the the person expressing my the the person expressing my the the person expressing my appreciation for for what they're doing appreciation for for what they're doing appreciation for for what they're doing and for the invitation and sort of try and for the invitation and sort of try and for the invitation and sort of try to close the whole thing out with a to close the whole thing out with a to close the whole thing out with a sense of I want them to walk away and sense of I want them to walk away and sense of I want them to walk away and say that is the most wonderful say that is the most wonderful say that is the most wonderful disappointing answer I've ever received. disappointing answer I've ever received. disappointing answer I've ever received. >> I love that. Fantastic. Very very >> I love that. Fantastic. Very very >> I love that. Fantastic. Very very helpful. By the way, the 850 page helpful. By the way, the 850 page helpful. By the way, the 850 page monster that I was describing monster that I was describing monster that I was describing >> shouldn't malign it by calling it a >> shouldn't malign it by calling it a >> shouldn't malign it by calling it a monster. monster. monster. >> Oh, no. All books are monsters. >> Oh, no. All books are monsters. >> Oh, no. All books are monsters. >> Yeah. Okay, there we go. Right. My >> Yeah. Okay, there we go. Right. My >> Yeah. Okay, there we go. Right. My little pet monster. Maybe it's more like little pet monster. Maybe it's more like little pet monster. Maybe it's more like a monster from Monsters Inc. as opposed a monster from Monsters Inc. as opposed a monster from Monsters Inc. as opposed to like a a Kraken. But it's entirely to like a a Kraken. But it's entirely to like a a Kraken. But it's entirely about how to say no. And that's a simple about how to say no. And that's a simple about how to say no. And that's a simple way of putting it. But turns out just way of putting it. But turns out just way of putting it. But turns out just like I think what you realized with what like I think what you realized with what like I think what you realized with what to make of a life. I can't remember if to make of a life. I can't remember if to make of a life. I can't remember if it was Emerson who said this. Of course, it was Emerson who said this. Of course, it was Emerson who said this. Of course, I want to call it Emerson or throw, but I want to call it Emerson or throw, but I want to call it Emerson or throw, but you know, whenever you try to isolate you know, whenever you try to isolate you know, whenever you try to isolate one thing, you find that it's hitched to one thing, you find that it's hitched to one thing, you find that it's hitched to everything else in the universe. everything else in the universe. everything else in the universe. >> Turns out that saying no is related to >> Turns out that saying no is related to >> Turns out that saying no is related to saying yes, which is related to saying yes, which is related to saying yes, which is related to decisions, which then you're like, [ __ ] decisions, which then you're like, [ __ ] decisions, which then you're like, [ __ ] now I have to talk about everything in now I have to talk about everything in now I have to talk about everything in life. life. life. >> So, >> So, >> So, >> pardon my French, but thank you for that >> pardon my French, but thank you for that >> pardon my French, but thank you for that answer. I would love to come back to a answer. I would love to come back to a answer. I would love to come back to a few things you said, which can one quick few things you said, which can one quick few things you said, which can one quick thing out, which was you asked about thing out, which was you asked about thing out, which was you asked about this notion of dealing with the staying this notion of dealing with the staying this notion of dealing with the staying on track, right? on track, right? on track, right? >> And and not getting sex. I'll just very >> And and not getting sex. I'll just very >> And and not getting sex. I'll just very briefly, we talked earlier about right briefly, we talked earlier about right briefly, we talked earlier about right people in the key seats. Are they people in the key seats. Are they people in the key seats. Are they encoded for it? When they're in frame, encoded for it? When they're in frame, encoded for it? When they're in frame, you're grateful for what they are. I you're grateful for what they are. I you're grateful for what they are. I used to a lot of getting knocked out of used to a lot of getting knocked out of used to a lot of getting knocked out of frame was trying to manage frame was trying to manage frame was trying to manage my small system and I did a pretty bad my small system and I did a pretty bad my small system and I did a pretty bad job of it. Took a lot of my energy. What job of it. Took a lot of my energy. What job of it. Took a lot of my energy. What changed is once I got really good at changed is once I got really good at changed is once I got really good at people in seats for which they're people in seats for which they're people in seats for which they're encoded, my time and energy that goes to encoded, my time and energy that goes to encoded, my time and energy that goes to that has shrunk to almost nothing. in that has shrunk to almost nothing. in that has shrunk to almost nothing. in terms of that extraneous angst and terms of that extraneous angst and terms of that extraneous angst and replaced with just the joy of working replaced with just the joy of working replaced with just the joy of working with my people. So I think that's the with my people. So I think that's the with my people. So I think that's the second answer is go all the way back to second answer is go all the way back to second answer is go all the way back to first two from good to great. It's first two from good to great. It's first two from good to great. It's always still first two and especially always still first two and especially always still first two and especially with people in key seats for which with people in key seats for which with people in key seats for which they're encoded. So enough on that. they're encoded. So enough on that. they're encoded. So enough on that. >> So let's let's double click on that >> So let's let's double click on that >> So let's let's double click on that actually before I hop to where I was actually before I hop to where I was actually before I hop to where I was going. I'm imagining and maybe this is going. I'm imagining and maybe this is going. I'm imagining and maybe this is not the right way to think of it but if not the right way to think of it but if not the right way to think of it but if you have a small team like I have a very you have a small team like I have a very you have a small team like I have a very small team three or four people in terms small team three or four people in terms small team three or four people in terms of full-time of full-time of full-time I suspect you have at least if we're I suspect you have at least if we're I suspect you have at least if we're looking at broader corporate America looking at broader corporate America looking at broader corporate America let's say you have a small team let's say you have a small team let's say you have a small team >> yes absolutely >> yes absolutely >> yes absolutely >> and you can run some trial and error >> and you can run some trial and error >> and you can run some trial and error >> y >> y >> y >> once you get up to 100 people a thousand >> once you get up to 100 people a thousand >> once you get up to 100 people a thousand people 10,000 people maybe the trial and people 10,000 people maybe the trial and people 10,000 people maybe the trial and error becomes a little harder to error becomes a little harder to error becomes a little harder to systematize but even on a small scale systematize but even on a small scale systematize but even on a small scale one could make the argument that you one could make the argument that you one could make the argument that you have fewer players on the chess board, have fewer players on the chess board, have fewer players on the chess board, so you also don't want to chew up too so you also don't want to chew up too so you also don't want to chew up too much of their cycles with endless trial much of their cycles with endless trial much of their cycles with endless trial and error, and error, and error, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Are there ways that you have thought >> Are there ways that you have thought >> Are there ways that you have thought about about about making that process as fruitful as making that process as fruitful as making that process as fruitful as possible? You're like, "Hey, there are possible? You're like, "Hey, there are possible? You're like, "Hey, there are five types of tasks. I'm going to have five types of tasks. I'm going to have five types of tasks. I'm going to have everybody do trial and error with five everybody do trial and error with five everybody do trial and error with five types of tasks, and that'll help us hone types of tasks, and that'll help us hone types of tasks, and that'll help us hone in quickly." in quickly." in quickly." I'll stop there. I'll stop there. I'll stop there. >> First of all, I just want to comment >> First of all, I just want to comment >> First of all, I just want to comment something about scale. two aspects of something about scale. two aspects of something about scale. two aspects of scale. The first is this. scale. The first is this. scale. The first is this. Never confuse Never confuse Never confuse scale of impact with scale of scale of impact with scale of scale of impact with scale of enterprise. enterprise. enterprise. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You and I are like a special operations >> You and I are like a special operations >> You and I are like a special operations team, team, team, right? A small special operations team right? A small special operations team right? A small special operations team can have an immense impact with six can have an immense impact with six can have an immense impact with six people in the unit. people in the unit. people in the unit. And I think people confuse scale and And I think people confuse scale and And I think people confuse scale and impact all the time. And so, first of impact all the time. And so, first of impact all the time. And so, first of all, I don't think you have to be big to all, I don't think you have to be big to all, I don't think you have to be big to have big impact, right? So you and I have big impact, right? So you and I have big impact, right? So you and I have chosen that that model. The second have chosen that that model. The second have chosen that that model. The second is I think one of the best reasons to is I think one of the best reasons to is I think one of the best reasons to grow a company grow a company grow a company is you have a lot of seats and it's an is you have a lot of seats and it's an is you have a lot of seats and it's an everexpanding range of types of seats everexpanding range of types of seats everexpanding range of types of seats which means that there are more which means that there are more which means that there are more opportunities for being able to shift opportunities for being able to shift opportunities for being able to shift people across seats into seats for which people across seats into seats for which people across seats into seats for which they're really encoded because there's a they're really encoded because there's a they're really encoded because there's a wider range and a larger number of seats wider range and a larger number of seats wider range and a larger number of seats in which you could do that. And and then in which you could do that. And and then in which you could do that. And and then I think what really good unit level I think what really good unit level I think what really good unit level leadership is is that an individual unit leadership is is that an individual unit leadership is is that an individual unit leader is really good at kind of leader is really good at kind of leader is really good at kind of shifting people around on their unit shifting people around on their unit shifting people around on their unit across the seats by a process of kind of across the seats by a process of kind of across the seats by a process of kind of sensing when they're in frame or out of sensing when they're in frame or out of sensing when they're in frame or out of frame. My own process is I guess there's frame. My own process is I guess there's frame. My own process is I guess there's a little bit of systematic, but it's a little bit of systematic, but it's a little bit of systematic, but it's very I'm not going to package any of very I'm not going to package any of very I'm not going to package any of this because I don't know how to package this because I don't know how to package this because I don't know how to package any of it and it's not my it's not my any of it and it's not my it's not my any of it and it's not my it's not my encoding to package and put out programs encoding to package and put out programs encoding to package and put out programs or anything. For me, it's been just I or anything. For me, it's been just I or anything. For me, it's been just I observe. So, I I have a member on my observe. So, I I have a member on my observe. So, I I have a member on my team that is absolutely team that is absolutely team that is absolutely marvelous at keeping a cool head in the marvelous at keeping a cool head in the marvelous at keeping a cool head in the face of unexpected crisis. It's not me face of unexpected crisis. It's not me face of unexpected crisis. It's not me because I I have a little bit of the because I I have a little bit of the because I I have a little bit of the four anagram in me and I can go pretty four anagram in me and I can go pretty four anagram in me and I can go pretty overly dramatic. It's not helpful. But overly dramatic. It's not helpful. But overly dramatic. It's not helpful. But this person has really really really this person has really really really this person has really really really encoded for this calm for the unexpected encoded for this calm for the unexpected encoded for this calm for the unexpected crisis. We had an unexpected thing crisis. We had an unexpected thing crisis. We had an unexpected thing happen yesterday that was like whoa. But happen yesterday that was like whoa. But happen yesterday that was like whoa. But how did I discover that? It was just it how did I discover that? It was just it how did I discover that? It was just it was observation. And what really became was observation. And what really became was observation. And what really became clear to me was in the middle of CO when clear to me was in the middle of CO when clear to me was in the middle of CO when everything is kind of chaos and you know everything is kind of chaos and you know everything is kind of chaos and you know there's just this sense of just there's just this sense of just there's just this sense of just everything spinning out of control and everything spinning out of control and everything spinning out of control and what I observed was this person was was what I observed was this person was was what I observed was this person was was like the calm balance through everything like the calm balance through everything like the calm balance through everything right just I could just see the behavior right just I could just see the behavior right just I could just see the behavior and it was more just kind of recognizing and it was more just kind of recognizing and it was more just kind of recognizing it and then once I recognize it and I it and then once I recognize it and I it and then once I recognize it and I just see little snippets it could be just see little snippets it could be just see little snippets it could be just something I just notice just something I just notice just something I just notice then I kick the frame to the side. I then I kick the frame to the side. I then I kick the frame to the side. I just kind of kick it a little bit so just kind of kick it a little bit so just kind of kick it a little bit so that what they're doing captures more of that what they're doing captures more of that what they're doing captures more of that and it's it's a very iterative that and it's it's a very iterative that and it's it's a very iterative process. So I don't have any magic dust process. So I don't have any magic dust process. So I don't have any magic dust on this. That's just kind of what I do. on this. That's just kind of what I do. on this. That's just kind of what I do. >> So in that example, this is a great >> So in that example, this is a great >> So in that example, this is a great example for a follow-up question, which example for a follow-up question, which example for a follow-up question, which is if someone is good, you don't want to is if someone is good, you don't want to is if someone is good, you don't want to manufacture crises to manufacture crises to manufacture crises to >> Yeah. Let's see how we all do of the of >> Yeah. Let's see how we all do of the of >> Yeah. Let's see how we all do of the of the crisis manager. So, how do you the crisis manager. So, how do you the crisis manager. So, how do you harness that? If it seems like harness that? If it seems like harness that? If it seems like intrinsically it's contending with intrinsically it's contending with intrinsically it's contending with destabilizing unexpected events, how do destabilizing unexpected events, how do destabilizing unexpected events, how do you use that in coding? So, it was you use that in coding? So, it was you use that in coding? So, it was really interesting, you know, so really interesting, you know, so really interesting, you know, so yesterday it was just my it was really yesterday it was just my it was really yesterday it was just my it was really simple. It's like, boy, I'm really glad simple. It's like, boy, I'm really glad simple. It's like, boy, I'm really glad you're encoded for this. It was that you're encoded for this. It was that you're encoded for this. It was that simple. Like, let me know how it goes. simple. Like, let me know how it goes. simple. Like, let me know how it goes. And uh so remember I talked earlier And uh so remember I talked earlier And uh so remember I talked earlier about I think if if you talk to people about I think if if you talk to people about I think if if you talk to people on my team they would they would on my team they would they would on my team they would they would reinforce this. We talked earlier about reinforce this. We talked earlier about reinforce this. We talked earlier about for yourself it's not just recognizing for yourself it's not just recognizing for yourself it's not just recognizing your coding it's probably I put sort of your coding it's probably I put sort of your coding it's probably I put sort of 70 points on trusting them. What I've 70 points on trusting them. What I've 70 points on trusting them. What I've learned with my small team is it's also learned with my small team is it's also learned with my small team is it's also true with like I think this really fits true with like I think this really fits true with like I think this really fits with that person's encodings. I'm going with that person's encodings. I'm going with that person's encodings. I'm going to trust them. to trust them. to trust them. And I think that's the real key is I And I think that's the real key is I And I think that's the real key is I sort of trust and get out of the way sort of trust and get out of the way sort of trust and get out of the way because it's like they're so well because it's like they're so well because it's like they're so well encoded for this that I don't need to encoded for this that I don't need to encoded for this that I don't need to worry. worry. worry. I just need to let them do what's I just need to let them do what's I just need to let them do what's actually going to be really quite actually going to be really quite actually going to be really quite natural for them. And I think that's not natural for them. And I think that's not natural for them. And I think that's not a particularly maybe satisfying answer, a particularly maybe satisfying answer, a particularly maybe satisfying answer, but I think the essence of it is I don't but I think the essence of it is I don't but I think the essence of it is I don't tend to just like you don't want to tend to just like you don't want to tend to just like you don't want to second guessess your own encodings, I second guessess your own encodings, I second guessess your own encodings, I don't second guess their encodings. I don't second guess their encodings. I don't second guess their encodings. I just trust that letting them go with just trust that letting them go with just trust that letting them go with their encodings is going to produce a their encodings is going to produce a their encodings is going to produce a great result and I just breathe calmly great result and I just breathe calmly great result and I just breathe calmly and stay out of the way. and stay out of the way. and stay out of the way. >> So with that person again not to belabor >> So with that person again not to belabor >> So with that person again not to belabor the point but I I guess I specialize in the point but I I guess I specialize in the point but I I guess I specialize in belaboring the point to my earlier point belaboring the point to my earlier point belaboring the point to my earlier point of dumb questions. of dumb questions. of dumb questions. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> In this particular employees case team >> In this particular employees case team >> In this particular employees case team member's case member's case member's case >> team member. Yeah. >> team member. Yeah. >> team member. Yeah. >> If we look at say Google right they have >> If we look at say Google right they have >> If we look at say Google right they have a lot of seats on the bus. if they have a lot of seats on the bus. if they have a lot of seats on the bus. if they have some people are underutilized but who some people are underutilized but who some people are underutilized but who are critical when they are needed like are critical when they are needed like are critical when they are needed like firefighters let's just say sure they're firefighters let's just say sure they're firefighters let's just say sure they're playing cards playing cards playing cards >> all day long until you need them or when >> all day long until you need them or when >> all day long until you need them or when you need them you really want them you need them you really want them you need them you really want them >> does that team member fit that >> does that team member fit that >> does that team member fit that description in other words they're description in other words they're description in other words they're underutilized most of the time or how underutilized most of the time or how underutilized most of the time or how how do you think about that how do you think about that how do you think about that >> no I think my people would tell you that >> no I think my people would tell you that >> no I think my people would tell you that I've got them overutilized almost all I've got them overutilized almost all I've got them overutilized almost all the time so back to the exhausting thing the time so back to the exhausting thing the time so back to the exhausting thing this is I think actually leads to this is I think actually leads to this is I think actually leads to something really important for us I something really important for us I something really important for us I think to talk about. People are not think to talk about. People are not think to talk about. People are not encoded for just one thing. And so for encoded for just one thing. And so for encoded for just one thing. And so for example with with this person this example with with this person this example with with this person this person is also incredibly well encoded person is also incredibly well encoded person is also incredibly well encoded to coach people is really phenomenal to coach people is really phenomenal to coach people is really phenomenal just instinctive coach and the coaching just instinctive coach and the coaching just instinctive coach and the coaching responsibility is something that's there responsibility is something that's there responsibility is something that's there all the time. We have young people who all the time. We have young people who all the time. We have young people who come in who are on my research team come in who are on my research team come in who are on my research team young people who are here with us for a young people who are here with us for a young people who are here with us for a couple of years before they head off to couple of years before they head off to couple of years before they head off to do what they're going to do in the do what they're going to do in the do what they're going to do in the world. other people on our team who are world. other people on our team who are world. other people on our team who are handling you know range of different handling you know range of different handling you know range of different types of things and they're in seats for types of things and they're in seats for types of things and they're in seats for which they're encoded but then with that which they're encoded but then with that which they're encoded but then with that extra bit of coaching they just kind of extra bit of coaching they just kind of extra bit of coaching they just kind of have a big inflection and this have a big inflection and this have a big inflection and this particular person is really really good particular person is really really good particular person is really really good at coaching so the crises come kind of at coaching so the crises come kind of at coaching so the crises come kind of unexpectedly they just kind of happen unexpectedly they just kind of happen unexpectedly they just kind of happen but the the notion of coaching other but the the notion of coaching other but the the notion of coaching other people is there all the time and and so people is there all the time and and so people is there all the time and and so pretty probably pretty fully utilized on pretty probably pretty fully utilized on pretty probably pretty fully utilized on that I mean sure I mean if you're in a that I mean sure I mean if you're in a that I mean sure I mean if you're in a special operations unit you're not out special operations unit you're not out special operations unit you're not out on patrol every minute, right? But on patrol every minute, right? But on patrol every minute, right? But there's a whole lot of other activities there's a whole lot of other activities there's a whole lot of other activities that are taking place and you can be that are taking place and you can be that are taking place and you can be activating different encodings in those activating different encodings in those activating different encodings in those kinds of activities. But I want to I kinds of activities. But I want to I kinds of activities. But I want to I want to come to this. This is I think want to come to this. This is I think want to come to this. This is I think and I speak to the world of like and I speak to the world of like and I speak to the world of like founders on this especially. founders on this especially. founders on this especially. But look, here's one of the things that But look, here's one of the things that But look, here's one of the things that let me just pause for a moment. I said let me just pause for a moment. I said let me just pause for a moment. I said there a moment ago. I'll let you kind of there a moment ago. I'll let you kind of there a moment ago. I'll let you kind of pick how you'd like to go with it. It is pick how you'd like to go with it. It is pick how you'd like to go with it. It is one of the most uplifting aspects of one of the most uplifting aspects of one of the most uplifting aspects of this study this study this study that you're not encoded for just one that you're not encoded for just one that you're not encoded for just one thing. thing. thing. And this idea that you have to find what And this idea that you have to find what And this idea that you have to find what you're made for or even Abe Maslo's you're made for or even Abe Maslo's you're made for or even Abe Maslo's original definition of original definition of original definition of self-actualization which was discovering self-actualization which was discovering self-actualization which was discovering what you were made to do and then what you were made to do and then what you were made to do and then committing to pursue it with excellence committing to pursue it with excellence committing to pursue it with excellence which I think is actually quite good which I think is actually quite good which I think is actually quite good definition of self. definition of self. definition of self. >> Say that one more time please. >> Say that one more time please. >> Say that one more time please. >> Yeah. I think he defined it as >> Yeah. I think he defined it as >> Yeah. I think he defined it as discovering what you were made to do and discovering what you were made to do and discovering what you were made to do and then commit to pursue it with then commit to pursue it with then commit to pursue it with excellence. And I think at some level excellence. And I think at some level excellence. And I think at some level that's what all of our people did at that's what all of our people did at that's what all of our people did at different phases of their life when they different phases of their life when they different phases of their life when they were in frame. But there's a little were in frame. But there's a little were in frame. But there's a little asterisk to it that this study has asterisk to it that this study has asterisk to it that this study has really changed my view which is that really changed my view which is that really changed my view which is that this idea of like as if there's this one this idea of like as if there's this one this idea of like as if there's this one thing that you've got to discover that thing that you've got to discover that thing that you've got to discover that you're made to do. you're made to do. you're made to do. And what this study has done is blown And what this study has done is blown And what this study has done is blown that apart for me completely in the idea that apart for me completely in the idea that apart for me completely in the idea that the range of things that you're that the range of things that you're that the range of things that you're encoded to potentially do is incredibly encoded to potentially do is incredibly encoded to potentially do is incredibly vast. And all you have to do is find one vast. And all you have to do is find one vast. And all you have to do is find one of them. of them. of them. And the way you find that can be really And the way you find that can be really And the way you find that can be really random. It doesn't matter how it random. It doesn't matter how it random. It doesn't matter how it happens. It just matters that it happens. It just matters that it happens. It just matters that it happens. And it doesn't matter whether happens. And it doesn't matter whether happens. And it doesn't matter whether it's this portion of the encodings or it's this portion of the encodings or it's this portion of the encodings or that portion of the encodings or that that portion of the encodings or that that portion of the encodings or that portion of the encodings. Whether it's portion of the encodings. Whether it's portion of the encodings. Whether it's playing NFL football like Allen Paige is playing NFL football like Allen Paige is playing NFL football like Allen Paige is the first defensive player ever to be the first defensive player ever to be the first defensive player ever to be league MVP and then becoming a Supreme league MVP and then becoming a Supreme league MVP and then becoming a Supreme Court justice in the state of Minnesota. Court justice in the state of Minnesota. Court justice in the state of Minnesota. There's almost no overlap in codings in There's almost no overlap in codings in There's almost no overlap in codings in that at all. But he's encoded for both. that at all. But he's encoded for both. that at all. But he's encoded for both. And we see that notion of it's not just And we see that notion of it's not just And we see that notion of it's not just one thing. You may find one and stay one thing. You may find one and stay one thing. You may find one and stay with it for your whole life. Some of the with it for your whole life. Some of the with it for your whole life. Some of the people in our study once they found it, people in our study once they found it, people in our study once they found it, they never left it. And there are other they never left it. And there are other they never left it. And there are other people who because of a cliff ending it people who because of a cliff ending it people who because of a cliff ending it or because of some other driving or because of some other driving or because of some other driving interests, they were in one frame and interests, they were in one frame and interests, they were in one frame and then they were way over here in another then they were way over here in another then they were way over here in another frame and the encodings that they were frame and the encodings that they were frame and the encodings that they were drawing upon could have been radically drawing upon could have been radically drawing upon could have been radically different. You look at Benjamin different. You look at Benjamin different. You look at Benjamin Franklin, right? built one of the first Franklin, right? built one of the first Franklin, right? built one of the first media empires in history, then becomes a media empires in history, then becomes a media empires in history, then becomes a scientist, then becomes our greatest scientist, then becomes our greatest scientist, then becomes our greatest diplomat and helps found a nation. diplomat and helps found a nation. diplomat and helps found a nation. Three really different frames. And Three really different frames. And Three really different frames. And I'll get very excited here because I I'll get very excited here because I I'll get very excited here because I think that there is an really really think that there is an really really think that there is an really really important set of questions here for important set of questions here for important set of questions here for company builders and company founders company builders and company founders company builders and company founders because personally I think how you think because personally I think how you think because personally I think how you think about about about the intersection of your life to the the intersection of your life to the the intersection of your life to the cycles of building a company cycles of building a company cycles of building a company can be radically affected by how you can be radically affected by how you can be radically affected by how you think about this question of in frame or think about this question of in frame or think about this question of in frame or out of frame. So, I'm just going to out of frame. So, I'm just going to out of frame. So, I'm just going to pause there and you can be curious, Tim, pause there and you can be curious, Tim, pause there and you can be curious, Tim, however you'd like to go. however you'd like to go. however you'd like to go. >> Well, I'm curious in maybe too many >> Well, I'm curious in maybe too many >> Well, I'm curious in maybe too many ways. That can be problematic. And ways. That can be problematic. And ways. That can be problematic. And actually, that relates to I do want to actually, that relates to I do want to actually, that relates to I do want to come back come back come back to what you just said since that's to what you just said since that's to what you just said since that's that's a nice cliffhanger, pun intended. that's a nice cliffhanger, pun intended. that's a nice cliffhanger, pun intended. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What I do want to ask you, because this >> What I do want to ask you, because this >> What I do want to ask you, because this is after all in some ways a is after all in some ways a is after all in some ways a self-indulgent therapy session for self-indulgent therapy session for self-indulgent therapy session for myself, myself, myself, >> let's take a sidebar. I want to talk >> let's take a sidebar. I want to talk >> let's take a sidebar. I want to talk about return on luck because it's been about return on luck because it's been about return on luck because it's been so present on my mind. It came up in so present on my mind. It came up in so present on my mind. It came up in passing in one of our earlier passing in one of our earlier passing in one of our earlier conversations, but we never really did a conversations, but we never really did a conversations, but we never really did a deep dive and then it comes up again deep dive and then it comes up again deep dive and then it comes up again more substantially in what to make of a more substantially in what to make of a more substantially in what to make of a life. A life. A life. A >> whole chapter on it. >> whole chapter on it. >> whole chapter on it. >> Yeah. I want to talk about it because it >> Yeah. I want to talk about it because it >> Yeah. I want to talk about it because it strikes me and I want you to poke holes strikes me and I want you to poke holes strikes me and I want you to poke holes in this if need be. It strikes me that in this if need be. It strikes me that in this if need be. It strikes me that one of my encodings might actually be one of my encodings might actually be one of my encodings might actually be maximizing return on luck because I do maximizing return on luck because I do maximizing return on luck because I do so many different things and very often so many different things and very often so many different things and very often if and we have to be careful about if and we have to be careful about if and we have to be careful about hindsight 2020 and survivorship bias and hindsight 2020 and survivorship bias and hindsight 2020 and survivorship bias and blah blah blah but when I look at a lot blah blah blah but when I look at a lot blah blah blah but when I look at a lot of the home runs whether that's from of the home runs whether that's from of the home runs whether that's from personal reward external accolades or personal reward external accolades or personal reward external accolades or both a lot of the time it is both a lot of the time it is both a lot of the time it is connecting these disperate worlds. And connecting these disperate worlds. And connecting these disperate worlds. And the way that comes about frequently the way that comes about frequently the way that comes about frequently is I'll have these dozens and dozens of is I'll have these dozens and dozens of is I'll have these dozens and dozens of conversations which I do every week and conversations which I do every week and conversations which I do every week and they could be with scientists, they they could be with scientists, they they could be with scientists, they could be with startup founders, you name could be with startup founders, you name could be with startup founders, you name it. And most things are a no in one form it. And most things are a no in one form it. And most things are a no in one form or another. But I suppose the picture I or another. But I suppose the picture I or another. But I suppose the picture I might paint is I feel like sometimes by might paint is I feel like sometimes by might paint is I feel like sometimes by the virtue of how I live my life, I'm the virtue of how I live my life, I'm the virtue of how I live my life, I'm standing on one side of a tennis net and standing on one side of a tennis net and standing on one side of a tennis net and there are 600 tennis ball shooting there are 600 tennis ball shooting there are 600 tennis ball shooting machines on the other side. machines on the other side. machines on the other side. >> Y >> Y >> Y >> and I seem to be very good at picking >> and I seem to be very good at picking >> and I seem to be very good at picking out when there's 600 balls in the air out when there's 600 balls in the air out when there's 600 balls in the air which one I should actually take a swing which one I should actually take a swing which one I should actually take a swing at. And I may be giving myself too much at. And I may be giving myself too much at. And I may be giving myself too much credit, but I think my closest friends credit, but I think my closest friends credit, but I think my closest friends would say that also some version of would say that also some version of would say that also some version of that. that. that. >> If we step back, could you just describe >> If we step back, could you just describe >> If we step back, could you just describe the different types of luck that you've the different types of luck that you've the different types of luck that you've identified and what return on luck is? identified and what return on luck is? identified and what return on luck is? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I might add something else that I >> And I might add something else that I >> And I might add something else that I picked up from someone in Silicon Valley picked up from someone in Silicon Valley picked up from someone in Silicon Valley that I think is also pretty helpful. But that I think is also pretty helpful. But that I think is also pretty helpful. But let's start there because I do think let's start there because I do think let's start there because I do think it's a mistake for folks to think I it's a mistake for folks to think I it's a mistake for folks to think I either have this thing called big luck either have this thing called big luck either have this thing called big luck or I don't and that's the end of the or I don't and that's the end of the or I don't and that's the end of the story because you mentioned clues all story because you mentioned clues all story because you mentioned clues all the time and I think this relates. the time and I think this relates. the time and I think this relates. >> This has always been a real interesting >> This has always been a real interesting >> This has always been a real interesting question for me because I think I've question for me because I think I've question for me because I think I've always been kind of attuned to the role always been kind of attuned to the role always been kind of attuned to the role of luck in life, good luck and bad luck. of luck in life, good luck and bad luck. of luck in life, good luck and bad luck. And I was always really interested and And I was always really interested and And I was always really interested and curious about well you know in the end curious about well you know in the end curious about well you know in the end what role does luck play? Now real brief what role does luck play? Now real brief what role does luck play? Now real brief background the first time that I began background the first time that I began background the first time that I began to see this distinction between luck and to see this distinction between luck and to see this distinction between luck and return on luck will goes all the way return on luck will goes all the way return on luck will goes all the way back to when Morton Hansen and I were back to when Morton Hansen and I were back to when Morton Hansen and I were doing our book Great by Choice. We're doing our book Great by Choice. We're doing our book Great by Choice. We're looking at really chaotic environments looking at really chaotic environments looking at really chaotic environments and some of the most successful startups and some of the most successful startups and some of the most successful startups to great companies that came out of to great companies that came out of to great companies that came out of really turbulent worlds. And because of really turbulent worlds. And because of really turbulent worlds. And because of the environment we're looking at, it the environment we're looking at, it the environment we're looking at, it allowed us to be able to say, well, wait allowed us to be able to say, well, wait allowed us to be able to say, well, wait a minute. These are environments where a minute. These are environments where a minute. These are environments where luck events can happen, right? I mean, luck events can happen, right? I mean, luck events can happen, right? I mean, you can think about, you can think about, you can think about, you know, two companies both having IBM you know, two companies both having IBM you know, two companies both having IBM walk in the door looking for an walk in the door looking for an walk in the door looking for an operating system and they both get the operating system and they both get the operating system and they both get the same luck event, right? But one got a same luck event, right? But one got a same luck event, right? But one got a return on that luck event. return on that luck event. return on that luck event. >> And so what we did was we said, well, we >> And so what we did was we said, well, we >> And so what we did was we said, well, we need to systematically understand this. need to systematically understand this. need to systematically understand this. And and Morton really gets a lot of And and Morton really gets a lot of And and Morton really gets a lot of credit for for this because we we credit for for this because we we credit for for this because we we figured out how to do it. You have to figured out how to do it. You have to figured out how to do it. You have to first of all define what luck is. If first of all define what luck is. If first of all define what luck is. If you're going to study luck, you have to you're going to study luck, you have to you're going to study luck, you have to understand what it is and realize that understand what it is and realize that understand what it is and realize that luck is not an aura or something. It's luck is not an aura or something. It's luck is not an aura or something. It's an event. It's a luck event. And and if an event. It's a luck event. And and if an event. It's a luck event. And and if we could put the parameters of what is a we could put the parameters of what is a we could put the parameters of what is a luck event and what with Morton's luck event and what with Morton's luck event and what with Morton's collaborating together, we defined a collaborating together, we defined a collaborating together, we defined a luck event and I think this is a really luck event and I think this is a really luck event and I think this is a really good definition is a you didn't cause good definition is a you didn't cause good definition is a you didn't cause it. So if somebody says you make your it. So if somebody says you make your it. So if somebody says you make your own luck, it's not luck by definition, own luck, it's not luck by definition, own luck, it's not luck by definition, right? Because there's bad luck too. If right? Because there's bad luck too. If right? Because there's bad luck too. If I get a cancer diagnosis, am I going to I get a cancer diagnosis, am I going to I get a cancer diagnosis, am I going to say I make my own luck? No, you didn't say I make my own luck? No, you didn't say I make my own luck? No, you didn't cause it. The second is it has a cause it. The second is it has a cause it. The second is it has a potentially significant consequence, potentially significant consequence, potentially significant consequence, good or bad. And the third is in some good or bad. And the third is in some good or bad. And the third is in some way it came as a surprise. You you way it came as a surprise. You you way it came as a surprise. You you didn't know that it would happen or when didn't know that it would happen or when didn't know that it would happen or when it would happen or what form it would it would happen or what form it would it would happen or what form it would take, right? But there it is. And any take, right? But there it is. And any take, right? But there it is. And any event that meets those three tests event that meets those three tests event that meets those three tests is a luck event. And once you have that is a luck event. And once you have that is a luck event. And once you have that lens, lens, lens, you didn't cause a potential significant you didn't cause a potential significant you didn't cause a potential significant consequence, some element, some consequence, some element, some consequence, some element, some significant way as a surprise. You begin significant way as a surprise. You begin significant way as a surprise. You begin to see their luck events happening all to see their luck events happening all to see their luck events happening all the time. the time. the time. And and and so then what Morton and I And and and so then what Morton and I And and and so then what Morton and I did was we looked at these companies and did was we looked at these companies and did was we looked at these companies and we said, well, now let's actually run we said, well, now let's actually run we said, well, now let's actually run the numbers and see because we always the numbers and see because we always the numbers and see because we always had comparatives in that study. And we had comparatives in that study. And we had comparatives in that study. And we were able to demonstrate that the big were able to demonstrate that the big were able to demonstrate that the big winners, the ones who had the huge winners, the ones who had the huge winners, the ones who had the huge outsized returns relative to their outsized returns relative to their outsized returns relative to their direct comparisons, did not get more direct comparisons, did not get more direct comparisons, did not get more good luck. They did not get less bad good luck. They did not get less bad good luck. They did not get less bad luck. They did not get bigger spikes of luck. They did not get bigger spikes of luck. They did not get bigger spikes of luck. And they didn't get better timing luck. And they didn't get better timing luck. And they didn't get better timing of luck. So luck as a distributed of luck. So luck as a distributed of luck. So luck as a distributed variable was pretty even between those variable was pretty even between those variable was pretty even between those that were the huge 10x winners and their that were the huge 10x winners and their that were the huge 10x winners and their direct comparisons. So clearly luck direct comparisons. So clearly luck direct comparisons. So clearly luck didn't separate. And then that led to didn't separate. And then that led to didn't separate. And then that led to the observation that but it was the the observation that but it was the the observation that but it was the return on luck that when the luck came return on luck that when the luck came return on luck that when the luck came they had this amazing ability relative they had this amazing ability relative they had this amazing ability relative to the comparison to make more of the to the comparison to make more of the to the comparison to make more of the luck and that led to the return on luck luck and that led to the return on luck luck and that led to the return on luck as the critical variable. So now we come as the critical variable. So now we come as the critical variable. So now we come to this study and I I was looking to this study and I I was looking to this study and I I was looking through you know just looking at the through you know just looking at the through you know just looking at the amount of luck that's in these people's amount of luck that's in these people's amount of luck that's in these people's lives and it's you know there's a whole lives and it's you know there's a whole lives and it's you know there's a whole chapter on it. There's lots of chapter on it. There's lots of chapter on it. There's lots of permutations of luck, including the permutations of luck, including the permutations of luck, including the roulette wheel, which which set of roulette wheel, which which set of roulette wheel, which which set of encodings you get thrown into at some, encodings you get thrown into at some, encodings you get thrown into at some, you know, stage of life that just puts you know, stage of life that just puts you know, stage of life that just puts you there that you didn't expect to be you there that you didn't expect to be you there that you didn't expect to be there. We were talking about Grace there. We were talking about Grace there. We were talking about Grace Hopper earlier. How'd she end up in Hopper earlier. How'd she end up in Hopper earlier. How'd she end up in computer scientists? Well, World War II computer scientists? Well, World War II computer scientists? Well, World War II happened. She got pulled out of being a happened. She got pulled out of being a happened. She got pulled out of being a professor at Vasser. She was assigned to professor at Vasser. She was assigned to professor at Vasser. She was assigned to this project at Harvard she didn't even this project at Harvard she didn't even this project at Harvard she didn't even know existed. And it was the first know existed. And it was the first know existed. And it was the first computer, the Mark 1. And that cast the computer, the Mark 1. And that cast the computer, the Mark 1. And that cast the dive for the rest of her life. without dive for the rest of her life. without dive for the rest of her life. without World War II or without that assignment World War II or without that assignment World War II or without that assignment without right it would have been some without right it would have been some without right it would have been some other set of encodings that that went other set of encodings that that went other set of encodings that that went off but then I started looking at what off but then I started looking at what off but then I started looking at what are the types of luck and I through this are the types of luck and I through this are the types of luck and I through this study came to see I think there are study came to see I think there are study came to see I think there are three there's what luck which is a good three there's what luck which is a good three there's what luck which is a good event that goes your way or a bad event event that goes your way or a bad event event that goes your way or a bad event you know a cancer event would be a bad you know a cancer event would be a bad you know a cancer event would be a bad luck what luck there's who luck and I luck what luck there's who luck and I luck what luck there's who luck and I think this is the often underappreciated think this is the often underappreciated think this is the often underappreciated gigantic kind of luck in life my life is gigantic kind of luck in life my life is gigantic kind of luck in life my life is a continuous theories of hool luck a continuous theories of hool luck a continuous theories of hool luck events starting with Joanne but others events starting with Joanne but others events starting with Joanne but others as well and bad luck the bad luck of my as well and bad luck the bad luck of my as well and bad luck the bad luck of my father and then there's zit luck and zit father and then there's zit luck and zit father and then there's zit luck and zit luck which I didn't really see until luck which I didn't really see until luck which I didn't really see until this study is when what you're doing this study is when what you're doing this study is when what you're doing just you know happens to fit with a just you know happens to fit with a just you know happens to fit with a particular zeitgeist that's happening at particular zeitgeist that's happening at particular zeitgeist that's happening at the time you did not cause but it is a the time you did not cause but it is a the time you did not cause but it is a huge reality so I mean Benjamin Franklin huge reality so I mean Benjamin Franklin huge reality so I mean Benjamin Franklin you and I would never talk about you and I would never talk about you and I would never talk about Benjamin Franklin if he had born at a Benjamin Franklin if he had born at a Benjamin Franklin if he had born at a time that he wasn't there for the time that he wasn't there for the time that he wasn't there for the revolution and the founding of the revolution and the founding of the revolution and the founding of the country. And Alice Paul, if she'd been country. And Alice Paul, if she'd been country. And Alice Paul, if she'd been born 20 years later or 20 years earlier, born 20 years later or 20 years earlier, born 20 years later or 20 years earlier, she wouldn't have been there to bring she wouldn't have been there to bring she wouldn't have been there to bring the 19th amendment and suffrage to a the 19th amendment and suffrage to a the 19th amendment and suffrage to a successful close. She would have done successful close. She would have done successful close. She would have done something else, right? But not that. And something else, right? But not that. And something else, right? But not that. And so Jimmy Paige and had not been born in so Jimmy Paige and had not been born in so Jimmy Paige and had not been born in England coming of age in the blues rock England coming of age in the blues rock England coming of age in the blues rock revolution right there as all this great revolution right there as all this great revolution right there as all this great music was happening. Right. I'll just music was happening. Right. I'll just music was happening. Right. I'll just say briefly, people need to read it, but say briefly, people need to read it, but say briefly, people need to read it, but the the entire founding story of Led the the entire founding story of Led the the entire founding story of Led Zeppelin is kind of the same when you Zeppelin is kind of the same when you Zeppelin is kind of the same when you look at the number of things that had to look at the number of things that had to look at the number of things that had to go right. Yeah. It's just wild. Yeah. go right. Yeah. It's just wild. Yeah. go right. Yeah. It's just wild. Yeah. >> And there's that great quote from Robert >> And there's that great quote from Robert >> And there's that great quote from Robert Plant saying, "What was that? The gods Plant saying, "What was that? The gods Plant saying, "What was that? The gods roared and you know, lightning crackled roared and you know, lightning crackled roared and you know, lightning crackled and Blake wrote a poem from under the and Blake wrote a poem from under the and Blake wrote a poem from under the ground and all England was reunited." ground and all England was reunited." ground and all England was reunited." You know, it's just this great moment in You know, it's just this great moment in You know, it's just this great moment in that basement that where they had that that basement that where they had that that basement that where they had that first song when they played Train Kept first song when they played Train Kept first song when they played Train Kept Rolling and the four of them came Rolling and the four of them came Rolling and the four of them came together. Anyway, zeit luck is a big one together. Anyway, zeit luck is a big one together. Anyway, zeit luck is a big one too. And then what we found in this too. And then what we found in this too. And then what we found in this study is and I think it really is a it's study is and I think it really is a it's study is and I think it really is a it's a very true finding. a very true finding. a very true finding. They were really good at getting a They were really good at getting a They were really good at getting a return on luck when luck came because return on luck when luck came because return on luck when luck came because they these things we called Natalie they these things we called Natalie they these things we called Natalie moments. Not all time in life is equal. moments. Not all time in life is equal. moments. Not all time in life is equal. And you recognize this is a not all time And you recognize this is a not all time And you recognize this is a not all time in life is equal moment. And it requires in life is equal moment. And it requires in life is equal moment. And it requires an unequal response to an unequal an unequal response to an unequal an unequal response to an unequal moment. And so now I come back to you, moment. And so now I come back to you, moment. And so now I come back to you, Tim. If you're good at this return on Tim. If you're good at this return on Tim. If you're good at this return on luck thing, okay. luck thing, okay. luck thing, okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So the 600 tennis balls are coming at >> So the 600 tennis balls are coming at >> So the 600 tennis balls are coming at you. One of them is the one that you you. One of them is the one that you you. One of them is the one that you decide to to hit. What about your decide to to hit. What about your decide to to hit. What about your ability to kind of recognize it's a not ability to kind of recognize it's a not ability to kind of recognize it's a not all time in life is equal moment all time in life is equal moment all time in life is equal moment >> and to go to kind of a 10x intensity >> and to go to kind of a 10x intensity >> and to go to kind of a 10x intensity in that moment. I'm curious how that in that moment. I'm curious how that in that moment. I'm curious how that plays out for you. I think there's a lot plays out for you. I think there's a lot plays out for you. I think there's a lot of overlap and and certainly I I think of overlap and and certainly I I think of overlap and and certainly I I think my maximizing return on luck has an ROI my maximizing return on luck has an ROI my maximizing return on luck has an ROI distribution very similar to angel distribution very similar to angel distribution very similar to angel investing. I so 80% of the times I hit investing. I so 80% of the times I hit investing. I so 80% of the times I hit the ball it's like Marco and there's no the ball it's like Marco and there's no the ball it's like Marco and there's no polo. Nobody hits it back. Right. polo. Nobody hits it back. Right. polo. Nobody hits it back. Right. >> But but every once in a while I'm like >> But but every once in a while I'm like >> But but every once in a while I'm like holy cow I just scored the winning point holy cow I just scored the winning point holy cow I just scored the winning point in Wibbleton. That's crazy. Didn't see in Wibbleton. That's crazy. Didn't see in Wibbleton. That's crazy. Didn't see that coming. Yeah. So I'll come back and that coming. Yeah. So I'll come back and that coming. Yeah. So I'll come back and answer that. I think they're very answer that. I think they're very answer that. I think they're very closely related and I identify with the closely related and I identify with the closely related and I identify with the what who and zeit luck. For instance, what who and zeit luck. For instance, what who and zeit luck. For instance, when I started angel investing 2008 when I started angel investing 2008 when I started angel investing 2008 roughly 2008, 2009, 2010, I mean it was roughly 2008, 2009, 2010, I mean it was roughly 2008, 2009, 2010, I mean it was >> just a beautiful time to angel invest. >> just a beautiful time to angel invest. >> just a beautiful time to angel invest. Yes, there's some skill involved. I tend Yes, there's some skill involved. I tend Yes, there's some skill involved. I tend to disbelieve people who attribute to disbelieve people who attribute to disbelieve people who attribute anything solely to luck or solely to anything solely to luck or solely to anything solely to luck or solely to skill. It's usually some combination. skill. It's usually some combination. skill. It's usually some combination. But there are definitely periods of time But there are definitely periods of time But there are definitely periods of time where I felt that not all time in life where I felt that not all time in life where I felt that not all time in life is equal and this is where you need to is equal and this is where you need to is equal and this is where you need to apply some pressure apply some pressure apply some pressure to the vessel. Yeah. Right. And that to the vessel. Yeah. Right. And that to the vessel. Yeah. Right. And that could be the first book which you know could be the first book which you know could be the first book which you know we don't need to get into right now. It we don't need to get into right now. It we don't need to get into right now. It could be early on the angel investing. could be early on the angel investing. could be early on the angel investing. >> Mhm. It could be for instance around >> Mhm. It could be for instance around >> Mhm. It could be for instance around 2015 deciding to like 10x 20x 30x down 2015 deciding to like 10x 20x 30x down 2015 deciding to like 10x 20x 30x down my bet on supporting science related to my bet on supporting science related to my bet on supporting science related to psychedelic assisted therapies and psychedelic assisted therapies and psychedelic assisted therapies and even back then starting also but now even back then starting also but now even back then starting also but now typically non-invasive but sometimes typically non-invasive but sometimes typically non-invasive but sometimes invasive bioelectric medicine brain invasive bioelectric medicine brain invasive bioelectric medicine brain stimulation I think that's I have very stimulation I think that's I have very stimulation I think that's I have very high conviction that that is around the high conviction that that is around the high conviction that that is around the corner So taking a peek at the future corner So taking a peek at the future corner So taking a peek at the future that's not evenly distributed. I feel that's not evenly distributed. I feel that's not evenly distributed. I feel >> that way about biologic medicine right >> that way about biologic medicine right >> that way about biologic medicine right now. So I think they're very tightly now. So I think they're very tightly now. So I think they're very tightly bound in a sense. And question for you. bound in a sense. And question for you. bound in a sense. And question for you. There's this term that I came across. I There's this term that I came across. I There's this term that I came across. I I wish I had the attribution but believe I wish I had the attribution but believe I wish I had the attribution but believe it was from someone in Silicon Valley or it was from someone in Silicon Valley or it was from someone in Silicon Valley or at least someone in tech. They talked at least someone in tech. They talked at least someone in tech. They talked about increasing the surface area of about increasing the surface area of about increasing the surface area of luck. In other words, luck. In other words, luck. In other words, if you need luck, if we're talking about if you need luck, if we're talking about if you need luck, if we're talking about good luck to stick to you, good luck to stick to you, good luck to stick to you, >> how do you increase the surface area >> how do you increase the surface area >> how do you increase the surface area available to which that luck can stick? available to which that luck can stick? available to which that luck can stick? And when I think about my own hoolock, And when I think about my own hoolock, And when I think about my own hoolock, for instance, for instance, for instance, >> it was entirely dependent in the world >> it was entirely dependent in the world >> it was entirely dependent in the world of startups and even one could argue the of startups and even one could argue the of startups and even one could argue the success of the first book on me moving success of the first book on me moving success of the first book on me moving to Silicon Valley, being in the middle to Silicon Valley, being in the middle to Silicon Valley, being in the middle of that switchbox. Without that, forget of that switchbox. Without that, forget of that switchbox. Without that, forget it. there was not enough surface area to it. there was not enough surface area to it. there was not enough surface area to which hool luck could really stick. which hool luck could really stick. which hool luck could really stick. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I'm just wondering if that >> And I'm just wondering if that >> And I'm just wondering if that resonates. So first of all I think resonates. So first of all I think resonates. So first of all I think whatever the size of the surface the whatever the size of the surface the whatever the size of the surface the idea of luck and return on luck idea of luck and return on luck idea of luck and return on luck is always operating if you will right is always operating if you will right is always operating if you will right because I mean you could be you know my because I mean you could be you know my because I mean you could be you know my family in rural northern Oklahoma my on family in rural northern Oklahoma my on family in rural northern Oklahoma my on my father's side isn't Silicon Valley my father's side isn't Silicon Valley my father's side isn't Silicon Valley but my grandmother who grew up there you but my grandmother who grew up there you but my grandmother who grew up there you know she had luck and return on luck know she had luck and return on luck know she had luck and return on luck that her life was affected by I mean she that her life was affected by I mean she that her life was affected by I mean she was this beautiful Oklahoma farm girl was this beautiful Oklahoma farm girl was this beautiful Oklahoma farm girl and she was working at the Witchah and she was working at the Witchah and she was working at the Witchah airport and this dashing test pilot who airport and this dashing test pilot who airport and this dashing test pilot who was my grandfather Jimmy Collins landed was my grandfather Jimmy Collins landed was my grandfather Jimmy Collins landed for fuel on a Memorial Day weekend and for fuel on a Memorial Day weekend and for fuel on a Memorial Day weekend and they met and 4 days later they were they met and 4 days later they were they met and 4 days later they were married and it was like okay this is a married and it was like okay this is a married and it was like okay this is a hoolock moment but we're both going to hoolock moment but we're both going to hoolock moment but we're both going to seize that not all time in life is equal seize that not all time in life is equal seize that not all time in life is equal and boom right you know so that notion and boom right you know so that notion and boom right you know so that notion of the luck and return on luck can of the luck and return on luck can of the luck and return on luck can happen sort of anywhere so one I don't happen sort of anywhere so one I don't happen sort of anywhere so one I don't think it's contingent that it has to be think it's contingent that it has to be think it's contingent that it has to be the largest sphere That said, I the largest sphere That said, I the largest sphere That said, I absolutely agree with you that one of absolutely agree with you that one of absolutely agree with you that one of the reasons to be in certain the reasons to be in certain the reasons to be in certain environments if you're fortunate enough environments if you're fortunate enough environments if you're fortunate enough to be there is there's just a lot more to be there is there's just a lot more to be there is there's just a lot more tennis balls coming at you and there's a tennis balls coming at you and there's a tennis balls coming at you and there's a lot more around the hoolock side of it. lot more around the hoolock side of it. lot more around the hoolock side of it. In my life, I've often said, you know, In my life, I've often said, you know, In my life, I've often said, you know, there are lots of ways to be wealthy, there are lots of ways to be wealthy, there are lots of ways to be wealthy, but the way in which I have been but the way in which I have been but the way in which I have been incredibly wealthy. incredibly wealthy. incredibly wealthy. I've done well on many dimensions, but I've done well on many dimensions, but I've done well on many dimensions, but probably the way in which I have the probably the way in which I have the probably the way in which I have the greatest wealth is in a vast vast set of greatest wealth is in a vast vast set of greatest wealth is in a vast vast set of hoolock events. And that happened, it hoolock events. And that happened, it hoolock events. And that happened, it started because I started being in started because I started being in started because I started being in environments where I would come in environments where I would come in environments where I would come in contact with with people who ended up contact with with people who ended up contact with with people who ended up being hoolock. John Gardner down the being hoolock. John Gardner down the being hoolock. John Gardner down the hall from me at Stanford. But I mean hall from me at Stanford. But I mean hall from me at Stanford. But I mean just a couple to really illustrate like just a couple to really illustrate like just a couple to really illustrate like that really affected my own life because that really affected my own life because that really affected my own life because I was in a place where the surface area I was in a place where the surface area I was in a place where the surface area was fairly large. When I went off to was fairly large. When I went off to was fairly large. When I went off to Stanford business school second year and Stanford business school second year and Stanford business school second year and the the course sorting machine I wanted the the course sorting machine I wanted the the course sorting machine I wanted to get into an entrepreneurship small to get into an entrepreneurship small to get into an entrepreneurship small business course. it filled up and so the business course. it filled up and so the business course. it filled up and so the course sorting machine just randomly put course sorting machine just randomly put course sorting machine just randomly put me into a section with a totally me into a section with a totally me into a section with a totally unproven guy named Bill Lazir who we unproven guy named Bill Lazir who we unproven guy named Bill Lazir who we spoke about in one of our previous spoke about in one of our previous spoke about in one of our previous conversations. It was truly just the conversations. It was truly just the conversations. It was truly just the random course sorting. So it is random course sorting. So it is random course sorting. So it is absolutely it's like a coin flip. And absolutely it's like a coin flip. And absolutely it's like a coin flip. And then Bill ended up, it was the first then Bill ended up, it was the first then Bill ended up, it was the first time he taught, no one knew who he was, time he taught, no one knew who he was, time he taught, no one knew who he was, was the first person that was ever like was the first person that was ever like was the first person that was ever like a father for me. And Bill, despite all a father for me. And Bill, despite all a father for me. And Bill, despite all of my, you know, challenges to be of my, you know, challenges to be of my, you know, challenges to be somebody to deal with or whatever and somebody to deal with or whatever and somebody to deal with or whatever and those hot coals and he had to manage those hot coals and he had to manage those hot coals and he had to manage those. But the return on luck was I those. But the return on luck was I those. But the return on luck was I recognized Bill's caring and I I recognized Bill's caring and I I recognized Bill's caring and I I invested in our friendship and our invested in our friendship and our invested in our friendship and our relationship all the way along as well. relationship all the way along as well. relationship all the way along as well. And then that led to another luck event, And then that led to another luck event, And then that led to another luck event, a what luck followed by a hoolock. So I a what luck followed by a hoolock. So I a what luck followed by a hoolock. So I was 28 29 years old I think 29 maybe 30 was 28 29 years old I think 29 maybe 30 was 28 29 years old I think 29 maybe 30 right around that age. So how did I end right around that age. So how did I end right around that age. So how did I end up teaching at Stanford business school? up teaching at Stanford business school? up teaching at Stanford business school? Well, shortly before the start of the Well, shortly before the start of the Well, shortly before the start of the fall term in 1988, fall term in 1988, fall term in 1988, Bill was teaching entrepreneurship and Bill was teaching entrepreneurship and Bill was teaching entrepreneurship and small business. I was kind of still in small business. I was kind of still in small business. I was kind of still in the fog of my 20s and I'd been managing the fog of my 20s and I'd been managing the fog of my 20s and I'd been managing Jo-Ann's athletic career and Jo-Ann's athletic career and Jo-Ann's athletic career and one of the sections of entrepreneurship one of the sections of entrepreneurship one of the sections of entrepreneurship and small business because of a family and small business because of a family and small business because of a family tragedy tragedy tragedy all of a sudden lost the professor who all of a sudden lost the professor who all of a sudden lost the professor who was going to be teaching it. was going to be teaching it. was going to be teaching it. I mean, it was a really bad luck event I mean, it was a really bad luck event I mean, it was a really bad luck event for that person, but all of a sudden, it for that person, but all of a sudden, it for that person, but all of a sudden, it hit me with a luck event in the sense it hit me with a luck event in the sense it hit me with a luck event in the sense it was the luck event was all of a sudden was the luck event was all of a sudden was the luck event was all of a sudden that class had nobody to teach it. And that class had nobody to teach it. And that class had nobody to teach it. And Bill taught the other section of it and Bill taught the other section of it and Bill taught the other section of it and Bill went to the deans and said, "How Bill went to the deans and said, "How Bill went to the deans and said, "How about we let Jim teach it?" I wasn't about we let Jim teach it?" I wasn't about we let Jim teach it?" I wasn't teaching there at the time and and they teaching there at the time and and they teaching there at the time and and they were very skeptical of this, but Bill were very skeptical of this, but Bill were very skeptical of this, but Bill said, "I'll, you know, I'll take said, "I'll, you know, I'll take said, "I'll, you know, I'll take responsibility and so forth." And that's responsibility and so forth." And that's responsibility and so forth." And that's what opened up the door for me to teach what opened up the door for me to teach what opened up the door for me to teach at Stanford. It was a like had that at Stanford. It was a like had that at Stanford. It was a like had that tragedy not happened, I wouldn't have tragedy not happened, I wouldn't have tragedy not happened, I wouldn't have had that opportunity. And if I had not had that opportunity. And if I had not had that opportunity. And if I had not had Bill from the previous luck event, I had Bill from the previous luck event, I had Bill from the previous luck event, I would not have had that opportunity. And would not have had that opportunity. And would not have had that opportunity. And then and then Bill was said, "Okay, you then and then Bill was said, "Okay, you then and then Bill was said, "Okay, you know, this is like you unexpectedly got know, this is like you unexpectedly got know, this is like you unexpectedly got to pitch in Yankee Stadium and you only to pitch in Yankee Stadium and you only to pitch in Yankee Stadium and you only get to pitch once if you don't throw a get to pitch once if you don't throw a get to pitch once if you don't throw a good game, but if you throw a no hitter, good game, but if you throw a no hitter, good game, but if you throw a no hitter, you might get to pitch again." you might get to pitch again." you might get to pitch again." And so that's the Natalie time, right? And so that's the Natalie time, right? And so that's the Natalie time, right? Not all time in life is equal. Is that Not all time in life is equal. Is that Not all time in life is equal. Is that moment I get this, you know, it's look, moment I get this, you know, it's look, moment I get this, you know, it's look, if you had one shot, one opportunity to if you had one shot, one opportunity to if you had one shot, one opportunity to seize everything you wanted in one seize everything you wanted in one seize everything you wanted in one moment, would you capture it or let it moment, would you capture it or let it moment, would you capture it or let it slip? I mean, it's one of the great slip? I mean, it's one of the great slip? I mean, it's one of the great songs of all time because it gets right songs of all time because it gets right songs of all time because it gets right to this thing, right? That's the Natalie to this thing, right? That's the Natalie to this thing, right? That's the Natalie moment. And then the next luck event, moment. And then the next luck event, moment. And then the next luck event, which was a who luck thing, happened, which was a who luck thing, happened, which was a who luck thing, happened, which is I'd written a little article which is I'd written a little article which is I'd written a little article for the San Jose Mercury News. a fellow for the San Jose Mercury News. a fellow for the San Jose Mercury News. a fellow by the name of Jerry Porus just happened by the name of Jerry Porus just happened by the name of Jerry Porus just happened to read it who happened to be on the to read it who happened to be on the to read it who happened to be on the faculty with me who sent me an email faculty with me who sent me an email faculty with me who sent me an email saying I noticed you're interested in saying I noticed you're interested in saying I noticed you're interested in this stuff on corporate vision can we this stuff on corporate vision can we this stuff on corporate vision can we talk so I go have a conversation with talk so I go have a conversation with talk so I go have a conversation with Jerry Porus we he'd been a professor of Jerry Porus we he'd been a professor of Jerry Porus we he'd been a professor of mine before but he didn't even probably mine before but he didn't even probably mine before but he didn't even probably remember that and then we ended up that remember that and then we ended up that remember that and then we ended up that became where we started the project that became where we started the project that became where we started the project that eventually led to built to last right so eventually led to built to last right so eventually led to built to last right so another hoolock and then those years of another hoolock and then those years of another hoolock and then those years of like teaching and you know basically like teaching and you know basically like teaching and you know basically having no time for anything except the having no time for anything except the having no time for anything except the research and the teaching and the whole research and the teaching and the whole research and the teaching and the whole bit. And then that leads to built to bit. And then that leads to built to bit. And then that leads to built to last, which then leads to another luck last, which then leads to another luck last, which then leads to another luck event, which is this thing that that no event, which is this thing that that no event, which is this thing that that no one knew who we were and totally one knew who we were and totally one knew who we were and totally unexpected. The day that built to last unexpected. The day that built to last unexpected. The day that built to last was published. was published. was published. I wake up in a small in a a hotel room I wake up in a small in a a hotel room I wake up in a small in a a hotel room in a small hotel down in Halfoon Bay, in a small hotel down in Halfoon Bay, in a small hotel down in Halfoon Bay, California. California. California. And I think pub date was October 17 or And I think pub date was October 17 or And I think pub date was October 17 or something like that. Anyways, and I was something like that. Anyways, and I was something like that. Anyways, and I was down there to do a little thing for the down there to do a little thing for the down there to do a little thing for the Stanford Alumni Association, kind of a Stanford Alumni Association, kind of a Stanford Alumni Association, kind of a talk or something. And I get up and I talk or something. And I get up and I talk or something. And I get up and I open the door to pick up my morning USA open the door to pick up my morning USA open the door to pick up my morning USA Today. And I pick it up and the top of Today. And I pick it up and the top of Today. And I pick it up and the top of the USA Today says built to last author the USA Today says built to last author the USA Today says built to last author something. See money section. I'm like, something. See money section. I'm like, something. See money section. I'm like, well, that's kind of weird. Okay. So well, that's kind of weird. Okay. So well, that's kind of weird. Okay. So then I flipped to the money section and then I flipped to the money section and then I flipped to the money section and there's a picture this big of Jerry and there's a picture this big of Jerry and there's a picture this big of Jerry and me and we own the entire front page of me and we own the entire front page of me and we own the entire front page of the money section and with a picture of the money section and with a picture of the money section and with a picture of the book and the two of us and it goes the book and the two of us and it goes the book and the two of us and it goes on for like three pages. We had zero on for like three pages. We had zero on for like three pages. We had zero idea any of this was going to happen and idea any of this was going to happen and idea any of this was going to happen and it simply there's a series of things it simply there's a series of things it simply there's a series of things that led to that happening which related that led to that happening which related that led to that happening which related to hoolock. I thought it was a joke. So to hoolock. I thought it was a joke. So to hoolock. I thought it was a joke. So I called Joanne and I said you know god I called Joanne and I said you know god I called Joanne and I said you know god my friends are taking pity on me. my friends are taking pity on me. my friends are taking pity on me. They're playing a joke. They made this They're playing a joke. They made this They're playing a joke. They made this mockup copy of USA Today and they left mockup copy of USA Today and they left mockup copy of USA Today and they left it on my doorstep and well actually I it on my doorstep and well actually I it on my doorstep and well actually I didn't call her at first cuz I went didn't call her at first cuz I went didn't call her at first cuz I went downstairs and then I saw there were downstairs and then I saw there were downstairs and then I saw there were other USA Today's there and I went and I other USA Today's there and I went and I other USA Today's there and I went and I looked and they all had the same thing. looked and they all had the same thing. looked and they all had the same thing. I said, "Man, this is a really elaborate I said, "Man, this is a really elaborate I said, "Man, this is a really elaborate hoax cuz they changed all the hoax cuz they changed all the hoax cuz they changed all the newspapers." And then I called Joanne and she said, And then I called Joanne and she said, "Oh my gosh, now we're in trouble "Oh my gosh, now we're in trouble "Oh my gosh, now we're in trouble because that actually is real and we're because that actually is real and we're because that actually is real and we're 50,000 copies backordered overnight." 50,000 copies backordered overnight." 50,000 copies backordered overnight." >> Oh wow. >> Oh wow. >> Oh wow. Quality problem. Quality problem. Quality problem. >> And then of course there was the year >> And then of course there was the year >> And then of course there was the year after that which was a Natalie year at after that which was a Natalie year at after that which was a Natalie year at the end of which I put so much into it I the end of which I put so much into it I the end of which I put so much into it I ended up getting shingles because my ended up getting shingles because my ended up getting shingles because my immune system was so shot. So the each immune system was so shot. So the each immune system was so shot. So the each of those were there was the luck event of those were there was the luck event of those were there was the luck event often a who luck event sometimes a what often a who luck event sometimes a what often a who luck event sometimes a what luck event but every one of them what luck event but every one of them what luck event but every one of them what followed was followed was followed was the return on luck aspect of it of yes I the return on luck aspect of it of yes I the return on luck aspect of it of yes I get the email from Jerry Porus but then get the email from Jerry Porus but then get the email from Jerry Porus but then there's the five years of doing the there's the five years of doing the there's the five years of doing the research and inventing the match pair research and inventing the match pair research and inventing the match pair method and you know like what a method and you know like what a method and you know like what a wonderful opportunity to do that and and wonderful opportunity to do that and and wonderful opportunity to do that and and those are my life is just hooluck after those are my life is just hooluck after those are my life is just hooluck after hoolock after hooluck and then the hoolock after hooluck and then the hoolock after hooluck and then the sphere I was in a place where there was sphere I was in a place where there was sphere I was in a place where there was a lot of this fear I just have to say a lot of this fear I just have to say a lot of this fear I just have to say though there's one thing which is though there's one thing which is though there's one thing which is sometimes you have hoolock though and sometimes you have hoolock though and sometimes you have hoolock though and that doesn't necessarily mean that the that doesn't necessarily mean that the that doesn't necessarily mean that the key is you can have opportunities come key is you can have opportunities come key is you can have opportunities come at you and the hard part is when not to at you and the hard part is when not to at you and the hard part is when not to make a return on luck event out of it make a return on luck event out of it make a return on luck event out of it because it wouldn't fit your encodings because it wouldn't fit your encodings because it wouldn't fit your encodings and so just because something's a once and so just because something's a once and so just because something's a once in a-lifetime opportunity in a-lifetime opportunity in a-lifetime opportunity is merely a fact. It's not a reason. is merely a fact. It's not a reason. is merely a fact. It's not a reason. >> I mean, everything's kind of a once in >> I mean, everything's kind of a once in >> I mean, everything's kind of a once in a-lifetime event if you sit down and a-lifetime event if you sit down and a-lifetime event if you sit down and really think about it, right? really think about it, right? really think about it, right? >> Each and every day, >> Each and every day, >> Each and every day, >> I think about this line, and I'm going >> I think about this line, and I'm going >> I think about this line, and I'm going to paraphrase, although I think I'm very to paraphrase, although I think I'm very to paraphrase, although I think I'm very close, by the late Lord Rabbi Jonathan close, by the late Lord Rabbi Jonathan close, by the late Lord Rabbi Jonathan Saxs, who I had on the podcast a few Saxs, who I had on the podcast a few Saxs, who I had on the podcast a few years before he passed. years before he passed. years before he passed. And I think he said something along the And I think he said something along the And I think he said something along the lines of the great challenge in life is lines of the great challenge in life is lines of the great challenge in life is to separate an opportunity to be seized to separate an opportunity to be seized to separate an opportunity to be seized from a temptation to be resisted. from a temptation to be resisted. from a temptation to be resisted. >> Exactly. Oh, that's that's exactly >> Exactly. Oh, that's that's exactly >> Exactly. Oh, that's that's exactly that's really good words. that's really good words. that's really good words. >> I think about that a lot. And >> I think about that a lot. And >> I think about that a lot. And >> to follow up on the the luck question, >> to follow up on the the luck question, >> to follow up on the the luck question, so if we look at return on luck, it so if we look at return on luck, it so if we look at return on luck, it doesn't specify good or bad. I was doesn't specify good or bad. I was doesn't specify good or bad. I was thinking about this in the process of thinking about this in the process of thinking about this in the process of reading and I'm wondering if you look at reading and I'm wondering if you look at reading and I'm wondering if you look at the people you have studied the people you have studied the people you have studied >> whether it's for what to make of a life >> whether it's for what to make of a life >> whether it's for what to make of a life or other books or outside of the context or other books or outside of the context or other books or outside of the context of books of books of books >> it seems like yes you can conclude >> it seems like yes you can conclude >> it seems like yes you can conclude distribution of luck for these matched distribution of luck for these matched distribution of luck for these matched pairs seems roughly equivalent but the pairs seems roughly equivalent but the pairs seems roughly equivalent but the return on luck is not and I'm wondering return on luck is not and I'm wondering return on luck is not and I'm wondering if that applies not only to good luck if that applies not only to good luck if that applies not only to good luck and I'll I'll tell you what went through and I'll I'll tell you what went through and I'll I'll tell you what went through my head I Hm. If you were teaching, my head I Hm. If you were teaching, my head I Hm. If you were teaching, let's just say you, Jim, teaching a let's just say you, Jim, teaching a let's just say you, Jim, teaching a class at Stanford called luck or class at Stanford called luck or class at Stanford called luck or >> return on luck. >> return on luck. >> return on luck. >> Return on luck. >> Return on luck. >> Return on luck. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is it possible there's actually a >> Is it possible there's actually a >> Is it possible there's actually a progression of skill related to return progression of skill related to return progression of skill related to return on luck just as there might be with on luck just as there might be with on luck just as there might be with different types of investing in that if different types of investing in that if different types of investing in that if there's big good luck, that's sort of there's big good luck, that's sort of there's big good luck, that's sort of the white belt level. Most people can the white belt level. Most people can the white belt level. Most people can recognize that. Some percentage of those recognize that. Some percentage of those recognize that. Some percentage of those people can capitalize on it. Then people can capitalize on it. Then people can capitalize on it. Then there's small good luck which is is a there's small good luck which is is a there's small good luck which is is a little more challenging. little more challenging. little more challenging. Then let's skip over neutral. Just say Then let's skip over neutral. Just say Then let's skip over neutral. Just say there's like small bad luck, little bad there's like small bad luck, little bad there's like small bad luck, little bad things that people can sometimes make things that people can sometimes make things that people can sometimes make use of along the lines of the apocryphal use of along the lines of the apocryphal use of along the lines of the apocryphal Chinese saying never let a good crisis Chinese saying never let a good crisis Chinese saying never let a good crisis go to waste type of thing. And then go to waste type of thing. And then go to waste type of thing. And then there's big bad luck. And I'm I'm just there's big bad luck. And I'm I'm just there's big bad luck. And I'm I'm just wondering, we could think of these all wondering, we could think of these all wondering, we could think of these all as forms of chance. as forms of chance. as forms of chance. If you've noticed any patterns among the If you've noticed any patterns among the If you've noticed any patterns among the match pairs where we're able to make match pairs where we're able to make match pairs where we're able to make good use of big good luck or small good good use of big good luck or small good good use of big good luck or small good luck, were they also able to reframe bad luck, were they also able to reframe bad luck, were they also able to reframe bad events or make use of quote unquote bad events or make use of quote unquote bad events or make use of quote unquote bad events? Just a question. I've struggled events? Just a question. I've struggled events? Just a question. I've struggled with this myself because I I feel like with this myself because I I feel like with this myself because I I feel like I've done better at return on good luck I've done better at return on good luck I've done better at return on good luck than return on bad luck myself. I've had than return on bad luck myself. I've had than return on bad luck myself. I've had some return on bad luck too, but I can some return on bad luck too, but I can some return on bad luck too, but I can more easily zero in on the return on more easily zero in on the return on more easily zero in on the return on good luck. So, so first of all, I just good luck. So, so first of all, I just good luck. So, so first of all, I just want to clarify one thing that's really want to clarify one thing that's really want to clarify one thing that's really worth mentioning. In my prior work, good worth mentioning. In my prior work, good worth mentioning. In my prior work, good great bill to last, great by choice, how great bill to last, great by choice, how great bill to last, great by choice, how the mighty fall, so forth, where I was the mighty fall, so forth, where I was the mighty fall, so forth, where I was doing match pair studies, and Jerry doing match pair studies, and Jerry doing match pair studies, and Jerry Porus really gets the credit for coming Porus really gets the credit for coming Porus really gets the credit for coming up with the idea of the historical match up with the idea of the historical match up with the idea of the historical match pair method that's been so central to pair method that's been so central to pair method that's been so central to me. And you were always asking, I got me. And you were always asking, I got me. And you were always asking, I got two companies and then multiple pairs of two companies and then multiple pairs of two companies and then multiple pairs of companies and they're in similar companies and they're in similar companies and they're in similar circumstances and then one does one circumstances and then one does one circumstances and then one does one really well and the other doesn't. and really well and the other doesn't. and really well and the other doesn't. and you're you're looking at the contrast you're you're looking at the contrast you're you're looking at the contrast and asking what's different and that's and asking what's different and that's and asking what's different and that's how you see the ideas. And so that was how you see the ideas. And so that was how you see the ideas. And so that was really good for my corporate research. really good for my corporate research. really good for my corporate research. This study is different in how I use This study is different in how I use This study is different in how I use pairs. Joanne came into me one day and pairs. Joanne came into me one day and pairs. Joanne came into me one day and she just said, "Jim, people are not she just said, "Jim, people are not she just said, "Jim, people are not stock returns." And what she meant by stock returns." And what she meant by stock returns." And what she meant by that is, you know, was if I'm studying that is, you know, was if I'm studying that is, you know, was if I'm studying companies, I have these objective output companies, I have these objective output companies, I have these objective output variables, right? Right? I can look at variables, right? Right? I can look at variables, right? Right? I can look at cumulative returns relative to investors cumulative returns relative to investors cumulative returns relative to investors for example and I can really I can for example and I can really I can for example and I can really I can definitively prove this company over definitively prove this company over definitively prove this company over time did better than that company. I can time did better than that company. I can time did better than that company. I can unassalably demonstrate that. But unassalably demonstrate that. But unassalably demonstrate that. But there's no legitimate way for me to there's no legitimate way for me to there's no legitimate way for me to define what is a better life than define what is a better life than define what is a better life than another life. And so what happened in another life. And so what happened in another life. And so what happened in doing this study and this was a big doing this study and this was a big doing this study and this was a big change in how I just even look at the change in how I just even look at the change in how I just even look at the whole world is that the way it actually whole world is that the way it actually whole world is that the way it actually turned out because there were really turned out because there were really turned out because there were really interesting people all the way around is interesting people all the way around is interesting people all the way around is my other studies it was like this right my other studies it was like this right my other studies it was like this right you know there was always one that was you know there was always one that was you know there was always one that was better than the other. In this study I better than the other. In this study I better than the other. In this study I had two people and then they would hit a had two people and then they would hit a had two people and then they would hit a similar cliff and they would come out similar cliff and they would come out similar cliff and they would come out and they would maybe go different and they would maybe go different and they would maybe go different directions but you couldn't necessarily directions but you couldn't necessarily directions but you couldn't necessarily say one direction is better than another say one direction is better than another say one direction is better than another direction. You could say maybe one direction. You could say maybe one direction. You could say maybe one person had more trouble getting in frame person had more trouble getting in frame person had more trouble getting in frame before they got to the other side or before they got to the other side or before they got to the other side or whatever. And so this study is very much whatever. And so this study is very much whatever. And so this study is very much about people going through similar about people going through similar about people going through similar cliffs and coming out making different cliffs and coming out making different cliffs and coming out making different choices which is a very different thing choices which is a very different thing choices which is a very different thing than saying making better choices. So I than saying making better choices. So I than saying making better choices. So I want to be really careful that that I want to be really careful that that I want to be really careful that that I use pairs here. I learned a lot from use pairs here. I learned a lot from use pairs here. I learned a lot from having pairs. Pairs were essential to having pairs. Pairs were essential to having pairs. Pairs were essential to this. But the way I think about them this. But the way I think about them this. But the way I think about them when it comes to human beings is when it comes to human beings is when it comes to human beings is different than the way I think about different than the way I think about different than the way I think about them when it comes to companies. the bad them when it comes to companies. the bad them when it comes to companies. the bad luck part. I want to speak from a luck part. I want to speak from a luck part. I want to speak from a company standpoint. I want to speak from company standpoint. I want to speak from company standpoint. I want to speak from a personal standpoint. Company a personal standpoint. Company a personal standpoint. Company standpoint. What Morton and I found in standpoint. What Morton and I found in standpoint. What Morton and I found in Great by Choice is that the only Great by Choice is that the only Great by Choice is that the only mistakes you can learn from and the only mistakes you can learn from and the only mistakes you can learn from and the only bad luck events you can learn from are bad luck events you can learn from are bad luck events you can learn from are the ones you survive. the ones you survive. the ones you survive. And so it's true, right? And so it's true, right? And so it's true, right? And so what we found is that there's And so what we found is that there's And so what we found is that there's sort of a part of getting a return on sort of a part of getting a return on sort of a part of getting a return on bad luck for companies. And speaking for bad luck for companies. And speaking for bad luck for companies. And speaking for any founders or people who are building any founders or people who are building any founders or people who are building companies, what what we really found is companies, what what we really found is companies, what what we really found is that the way they manage the bad luck that the way they manage the bad luck that the way they manage the bad luck side of things is you think of like a side of things is you think of like a side of things is you think of like a curve of a rising curve of a company or curve of a rising curve of a company or curve of a rising curve of a company or you know company moving through and and you know company moving through and and you know company moving through and and say it's you know its growth or its say it's you know its growth or its say it's you know its growth or its success or whatever it's like this but success or whatever it's like this but success or whatever it's like this but around this like these events like you around this like these events like you around this like these events like you know COVID financial crisis massive know COVID financial crisis massive know COVID financial crisis massive technological disruption whatever it technological disruption whatever it technological disruption whatever it happens to be like these are sort of happens to be like these are sort of happens to be like these are sort of these things that are happening along these things that are happening along these things that are happening along the way. And meanwhile down here is this the way. And meanwhile down here is this the way. And meanwhile down here is this line that you'd think of as the death line that you'd think of as the death line that you'd think of as the death line. And if you ever hit the death line. And if you ever hit the death line. And if you ever hit the death line, it's over, right? You never get a line, it's over, right? You never get a line, it's over, right? You never get a chance to get a return on what comes chance to get a return on what comes chance to get a return on what comes next because it's done. And so what we next because it's done. And so what we next because it's done. And so what we found is the kind of the secret to found is the kind of the secret to found is the kind of the secret to managing from a company standpoint, the managing from a company standpoint, the managing from a company standpoint, the the bad luck side of it is you got to the bad luck side of it is you got to the bad luck side of it is you got to stay alive. And the part of getting a stay alive. And the part of getting a stay alive. And the part of getting a return on luck is if you manage yourself return on luck is if you manage yourself return on luck is if you manage yourself with such discipline and with such with such discipline and with such with such discipline and with such financial reserves and with such buffers financial reserves and with such buffers financial reserves and with such buffers and such relationships and so forth such and such relationships and so forth such and such relationships and so forth such that when you get a triple hit of bad that when you get a triple hit of bad that when you get a triple hit of bad luck, luck, luck, you're alive. you're alive. you're alive. You don't hit the death line. Part of You don't hit the death line. Part of You don't hit the death line. Part of the return on luck is you get to the the return on luck is you get to the the return on luck is you get to the other side and others got wiped out, but other side and others got wiped out, but other side and others got wiped out, but you didn't. you didn't. you didn't. And that sets you up for a return after And that sets you up for a return after And that sets you up for a return after the fact. And so this notion of kind of the fact. And so this notion of kind of the fact. And so this notion of kind of part of the secret to getting a high part of the secret to getting a high part of the secret to getting a high return on bad luck as a company is to return on bad luck as a company is to return on bad luck as a company is to have constant productive paranoia so have constant productive paranoia so have constant productive paranoia so that you never hit the death line. that you never hit the death line. that you never hit the death line. Because if you're one of the ones who Because if you're one of the ones who Because if you're one of the ones who never hits the death line, then you get never hits the death line, then you get never hits the death line, then you get a return by almost definition because a return by almost definition because a return by almost definition because you survived and others didn't. So you survived and others didn't. So you survived and others didn't. So that's the company side of it. And then that's the company side of it. And then that's the company side of it. And then of course you make the most of the of course you make the most of the of course you make the most of the things you learned and all that sort of things you learned and all that sort of things you learned and all that sort of stuff. From a personal standpoint, I stuff. From a personal standpoint, I stuff. From a personal standpoint, I think about one of the people in the think about one of the people in the think about one of the people in the study who you met. We have a pair of study who you met. We have a pair of study who you met. We have a pair of women whose husbands died with tragic women whose husbands died with tragic women whose husbands died with tragic luck events. luck events. luck events. One died in a plane crash One died in a plane crash One died in a plane crash and the other died of a heart attack. and the other died of a heart attack. and the other died of a heart attack. So these two women got hit with a So these two women got hit with a So these two women got hit with a massive blow of bad luck. massive blow of bad luck. massive blow of bad luck. I mean, it's the ultimate, right? You I mean, it's the ultimate, right? You I mean, it's the ultimate, right? You didn't cause a plane crash. Huge didn't cause a plane crash. Huge didn't cause a plane crash. Huge negative consequence. Total surprise out negative consequence. Total surprise out negative consequence. Total surprise out of the blue when you get that call that of the blue when you get that call that of the blue when you get that call that afternoon. And you look at Cartis afternoon. And you look at Cartis afternoon. And you look at Cartis Collins who husband, both of these Collins who husband, both of these Collins who husband, both of these women, their husband serves in Congress, women, their husband serves in Congress, women, their husband serves in Congress, which meant that they had the which meant that they had the which meant that they had the opportunity to take their husband's opportunity to take their husband's opportunity to take their husband's seats because the way that works with seats because the way that works with seats because the way that works with this mandate that opens up the this mandate that opens up the this mandate that opens up the possibility if your spouse dies, you get possibility if your spouse dies, you get possibility if your spouse dies, you get to take their seat. And Cartis Collins, to take their seat. And Cartis Collins, to take their seat. And Cartis Collins, she felt that her husband would have she felt that her husband would have she felt that her husband would have wanted her to at least give it a try. wanted her to at least give it a try. wanted her to at least give it a try. And she goes off to Washington DC. She And she goes off to Washington DC. She And she goes off to Washington DC. She was totally unprepared for being she had was totally unprepared for being she had was totally unprepared for being she had never thought of being a congressperson. never thought of being a congressperson. never thought of being a congressperson. The whole frame of her life had shifted The whole frame of her life had shifted The whole frame of her life had shifted and her life had been shattered. and her life had been shattered. and her life had been shattered. And while she was there, she began And while she was there, she began And while she was there, she began making these steps like she just making these steps like she just making these steps like she just started, you know, she would serve on a started, you know, she would serve on a started, you know, she would serve on a committee. She started right and she committee. She started right and she committee. She started right and she wasn't even sure she was going to stay. wasn't even sure she was going to stay. wasn't even sure she was going to stay. And then what happened is she began to And then what happened is she began to And then what happened is she began to discover a marvelous set like she had discover a marvelous set like she had discover a marvelous set like she had these amazing encodings probably I mean these amazing encodings probably I mean these amazing encodings probably I mean just really amazing encodings for being just really amazing encodings for being just really amazing encodings for being an incredible legislator. She became an incredible legislator. She became an incredible legislator. She became chair of the congressional black caucus chair of the congressional black caucus chair of the congressional black caucus at one point. She was there for 25 at one point. She was there for 25 at one point. She was there for 25 years. She really flourished in the role years. She really flourished in the role years. She really flourished in the role of being a congressperson 7th district of being a congressperson 7th district of being a congressperson 7th district of Chicago. Now I I want to be really of Chicago. Now I I want to be really of Chicago. Now I I want to be really clear. I wouldn't look at it as that oh clear. I wouldn't look at it as that oh clear. I wouldn't look at it as that oh it turned out that it was a good thing it turned out that it was a good thing it turned out that it was a good thing she lost her husband. It wasn't. It was she lost her husband. It wasn't. It was she lost her husband. It wasn't. It was terrible thing. So you don't look at it terrible thing. So you don't look at it terrible thing. So you don't look at it and kind of denigrate or in any way and kind of denigrate or in any way and kind of denigrate or in any way dismiss the pain and the grief of losing dismiss the pain and the grief of losing dismiss the pain and the grief of losing her husband. That's just awful, tragic, her husband. That's just awful, tragic, her husband. That's just awful, tragic, terrible luck. terrible luck. terrible luck. But what the story illustrates is that But what the story illustrates is that But what the story illustrates is that sometimes these bad luck events, cliff sometimes these bad luck events, cliff sometimes these bad luck events, cliff events, number of the people in our events, number of the people in our events, number of the people in our study, these cliff events have a way of study, these cliff events have a way of study, these cliff events have a way of knocking your life to the side. And when knocking your life to the side. And when knocking your life to the side. And when that gets knocked to the side, you're that gets knocked to the side, you're that gets knocked to the side, you're thrown off to Congress, you know, or you thrown off to Congress, you know, or you thrown off to Congress, you know, or you have a disease, have a disease, have a disease, your life has just been just bang. your life has just been just bang. your life has just been just bang. And what happens, I think the way I And what happens, I think the way I And what happens, I think the way I think of it through this study is it think of it through this study is it think of it through this study is it isn't just kind of like I will make good isn't just kind of like I will make good isn't just kind of like I will make good from bad. Look, it's just awful to lose from bad. Look, it's just awful to lose from bad. Look, it's just awful to lose your husband. your husband. your husband. But in many ways what it showed is this But in many ways what it showed is this But in many ways what it showed is this sense of that those cliff events which sense of that those cliff events which sense of that those cliff events which are often a form of bad luck in some are often a form of bad luck in some are often a form of bad luck in some cases or sometimes good cliff events but cases or sometimes good cliff events but cases or sometimes good cliff events but can be bad luck events can be bad luck events can be bad luck events can reframe your life in incredibly can reframe your life in incredibly can reframe your life in incredibly unexpected ways and expose encodings unexpected ways and expose encodings unexpected ways and expose encodings you never knew you had. you never knew you had. you never knew you had. And then the return on that is right And then the return on that is right And then the return on that is right back to the very earlier part of the back to the very earlier part of the back to the very earlier part of the conversation which is those encodings conversation which is those encodings conversation which is those encodings pop into frame. You recognize them. You pop into frame. You recognize them. You pop into frame. You recognize them. You begin to trust them and your life takes begin to trust them and your life takes begin to trust them and your life takes a different vector. a different vector. a different vector. And that's how I really kind of came to And that's how I really kind of came to And that's how I really kind of came to see it on these big ones. You're not see it on these big ones. You're not see it on these big ones. You're not polyianish about it at all. They can be polyianish about it at all. They can be polyianish about it at all. They can be terrible, terrible things. Katherine terrible, terrible things. Katherine terrible, terrible things. Katherine Graham, another one, right? just she had Graham, another one, right? just she had Graham, another one, right? just she had no idea she had the encodings to be one no idea she had the encodings to be one no idea she had the encodings to be one of the greatest corporate leaders of all of the greatest corporate leaders of all of the greatest corporate leaders of all time. But when the frame shifted and she time. But when the frame shifted and she time. But when the frame shifted and she began to discover those leadership began to discover those leadership began to discover those leadership encodings encodings encodings doesn't take away the pain of what she doesn't take away the pain of what she doesn't take away the pain of what she lived through. lived through. lived through. But when she But when she But when she really committed to and trusted, really committed to and trusted, really committed to and trusted, I am the leader of the Washington Post I am the leader of the Washington Post I am the leader of the Washington Post company, company, company, that was the ultimate return for the that was the ultimate return for the that was the ultimate return for the company, for her, for journalism, for company, for her, for journalism, for company, for her, for journalism, for the whole deal. So that's kind of how I the whole deal. So that's kind of how I the whole deal. So that's kind of how I how I think about it. And and think how I think about it. And and think how I think about it. And and think about it this way. This is going to about it this way. This is going to about it this way. This is going to happen. There are going to be founders. happen. There are going to be founders. happen. There are going to be founders. There's just I know you have founders in There's just I know you have founders in There's just I know you have founders in your world. One of the big luck events your world. One of the big luck events your world. One of the big luck events that happens to a lot of founders that happens to a lot of founders that happens to a lot of founders is is is They lost control of their company. They lost control of their company. They lost control of their company. Then they lost their company. And Then they lost their company. And Then they lost their company. And sometimes it comes as a terrible ripping sometimes it comes as a terrible ripping sometimes it comes as a terrible ripping shock almost like a death shock almost like a death shock almost like a death and they're cast into the fog. and they're cast into the fog. and they're cast into the fog. Or the other version of it is they sell Or the other version of it is they sell Or the other version of it is they sell their company their company their company and then they lose three decades of and then they lose three decades of and then they lose three decades of their life because they don't get back their life because they don't get back their life because they don't get back in frame. in frame. in frame. There's multiple groups of people that I There's multiple groups of people that I There's multiple groups of people that I really, really, really hope engage with really, really, really hope engage with really, really, really hope engage with this book, but one of them are my this book, but one of them are my this book, but one of them are my friends in the military, veterans coming friends in the military, veterans coming friends in the military, veterans coming out of places like special operations out of places like special operations out of places like special operations who have to reframe their life, etc. But who have to reframe their life, etc. But who have to reframe their life, etc. But I think the for for people who aren't I think the for for people who aren't I think the for for people who aren't going to build a company till the day going to build a company till the day going to build a company till the day they die, like Sam Walton they die, like Sam Walton they die, like Sam Walton or Steve Jobs, you're going to face this or Steve Jobs, you're going to face this or Steve Jobs, you're going to face this cliff event. cliff event. cliff event. And I think a lot of them are not well And I think a lot of them are not well And I think a lot of them are not well prepared for it. And I think they just prepared for it. And I think they just prepared for it. And I think they just jump right off another cliff. I would jump right off another cliff. I would jump right off another cliff. I would love to see that not happen. And one of love to see that not happen. And one of love to see that not happen. And one of the big questions I would put to the big questions I would put to the big questions I would put to corporate I really believe this is to corporate I really believe this is to corporate I really believe this is to ask yourself the question is ask yourself the question is ask yourself the question is ultimately in the end are you going to ultimately in the end are you going to ultimately in the end are you going to be a founder who actually the big thing be a founder who actually the big thing be a founder who actually the big thing you discovered in your life is building you discovered in your life is building you discovered in your life is building your company your company your company and you will do it until you're out of and you will do it until you're out of and you will do it until you're out of breath. breath. breath. or are you going to be somebody who or are you going to be somebody who or are you going to be somebody who that's one frame of your life that's one frame of your life that's one frame of your life and then there'll be a second very very and then there'll be a second very very and then there'll be a second very very different frame that comes after that. different frame that comes after that. different frame that comes after that. What worries me is how many people What worries me is how many people What worries me is how many people either they lose their company or they either they lose their company or they either they lose their company or they sell their company and they actually sell their company and they actually sell their company and they actually don't know how to get back in frame. don't know how to get back in frame. don't know how to get back in frame. And then a year goes by and five years And then a year goes by and five years And then a year goes by and five years goes by and 10 years goes by and 15 goes by and 10 years goes by and 15 goes by and 10 years goes by and 15 years goes by and as you know from the years goes by and as you know from the years goes by and as you know from the book your best years are starting to hit book your best years are starting to hit book your best years are starting to hit at about 55 60 65 70 anyway. at about 55 60 65 70 anyway. at about 55 60 65 70 anyway. and all of a sudden and all of a sudden and all of a sudden those punches in life have just expired those punches in life have just expired those punches in life have just expired without being really used. without being really used. without being really used. >> I would say very few founders have a >> I would say very few founders have a >> I would say very few founders have a plan. They have scripts they can copy, plan. They have scripts they can copy, plan. They have scripts they can copy, but it's not reasoning from first but it's not reasoning from first but it's not reasoning from first principles or from seeking encodings. principles or from seeking encodings. principles or from seeking encodings. It's I guess this is what you do now. It's I guess this is what you do now. It's I guess this is what you do now. And that typically And that typically And that typically ends up with a crisis of identity much ends up with a crisis of identity much ends up with a crisis of identity much like you described after an athletic like you described after an athletic like you described after an athletic career, after special ops, after career, after special ops, after career, after special ops, after anything that has been a lynch pin of anything that has been a lynch pin of anything that has been a lynch pin of your identity for such a long time. I'd your identity for such a long time. I'd your identity for such a long time. I'd love to ask you a question that may tie love to ask you a question that may tie love to ask you a question that may tie into a lot of what we've discussed into a lot of what we've discussed into a lot of what we've discussed already. already. already. It came about in reviewing our earlier It came about in reviewing our earlier It came about in reviewing our earlier conversations conversations conversations >> and >> and >> and I'd love for you to expand on it. So I'd love for you to expand on it. So I'd love for you to expand on it. So here here's the line. His mentor Irv here here's the line. His mentor Irv here here's the line. His mentor Irv Grouse, hopefully I'm pronouncing that Grouse, hopefully I'm pronouncing that Grouse, hopefully I'm pronouncing that correctly, told him correctly, told him correctly, told him >> y >> y >> y >> an option to come back in quotation >> an option to come back in quotation >> an option to come back in quotation marks has negative value on a creative marks has negative value on a creative marks has negative value on a creative path because it will change your path because it will change your path because it will change your behavior. behavior. behavior. >> Could you expand on this? Because part >> Could you expand on this? Because part >> Could you expand on this? Because part of the reason why I have the of the reason why I have the of the reason why I have the confidence, confidence, confidence, I'm not sure if that's quite the right I'm not sure if that's quite the right I'm not sure if that's quite the right word, to pursue all these different word, to pursue all these different word, to pursue all these different paths and paths and paths and chase different laser pointers of chase different laser pointers of chase different laser pointers of novelty is that I know I don't have to novelty is that I know I don't have to novelty is that I know I don't have to stick with any given boondoggle if it stick with any given boondoggle if it stick with any given boondoggle if it turns out to be a boondoggle. So could turns out to be a boondoggle. So could turns out to be a boondoggle. So could you just expand on this? I want to make you just expand on this? I want to make you just expand on this? I want to make sure I'm understanding it correctly and sure I'm understanding it correctly and sure I'm understanding it correctly and where it applies, where it might not where it applies, where it might not where it applies, where it might not apply. If this Irv grasp apply. If this Irv grasp apply. If this Irv grasp >> Irv was another one of the you know >> Irv was another one of the you know >> Irv was another one of the you know wonderful wonderful wonderful people that hit my my surface if you people that hit my my surface if you people that hit my my surface if you will a great hoolock event the story will a great hoolock event the story will a great hoolock event the story you're referring to essentially was I you're referring to essentially was I you're referring to essentially was I was at the point where I was going to be was at the point where I was going to be was at the point where I was going to be really you know contemplating and really you know contemplating and really you know contemplating and confronting leaving Stanford to head out confronting leaving Stanford to head out confronting leaving Stanford to head out on my own bed on my own work and and of on my own bed on my own work and and of on my own bed on my own work and and of course the key is you know now we know course the key is you know now we know course the key is you know now we know the result right it worked and I'm the result right it worked and I'm the result right it worked and I'm really glad that I carved my own path I really glad that I carved my own path I really glad that I carved my own path I wouldn't have been encoded to be wouldn't have been encoded to be wouldn't have been encoded to be successful in a political environment successful in a political environment successful in a political environment anyway. And then most universities are anyway. And then most universities are anyway. And then most universities are political. You could be good at that. political. You could be good at that. political. You could be good at that. I'm I wasn't very good at it. I was I'm I wasn't very good at it. I was I'm I wasn't very good at it. I was singularly terrible at it. But, you singularly terrible at it. But, you singularly terrible at it. But, you know, there was a question in my mind know, there was a question in my mind know, there was a question in my mind about should I try to build some bridges about should I try to build some bridges about should I try to build some bridges and threads back such that if I stepped and threads back such that if I stepped and threads back such that if I stepped away for 6 months or a year or whatever away for 6 months or a year or whatever away for 6 months or a year or whatever that I could have the option to return, that I could have the option to return, that I could have the option to return, right? If this if built to last didn't right? If this if built to last didn't right? If this if built to last didn't work or whatever, right? Because it was work or whatever, right? Because it was work or whatever, right? Because it was all right at about that time. And Irv all right at about that time. And Irv all right at about that time. And Irv said, 'It's not in your interest to have said, 'It's not in your interest to have said, 'It's not in your interest to have the option to come back. the option to come back. the option to come back. And I said, 'Well, I thought options And I said, 'Well, I thought options And I said, 'Well, I thought options always have positive value. He said, 'N always have positive value. He said, 'N always have positive value. He said, 'N no, options sometimes can have negative no, options sometimes can have negative no, options sometimes can have negative value because value because value because if you know you have the option to come if you know you have the option to come if you know you have the option to come back, back, back, it will change your behavior, the level it will change your behavior, the level it will change your behavior, the level of commitment. If you know there's no of commitment. If you know there's no of commitment. If you know there's no option to come back, you're going to option to come back, you're going to option to come back, you're going to have to do it's ultimately it's a have to do it's ultimately it's a have to do it's ultimately it's a Natalie time, right? it's going to be Natalie time, right? it's going to be Natalie time, right? it's going to be ultra Natalie time and it will change ultra Natalie time and it will change ultra Natalie time and it will change your behavior if you don't have the your behavior if you don't have the your behavior if you don't have the option to come back. And so that idea of option to come back. And so that idea of option to come back. And so that idea of I think you can have a lot of things in I think you can have a lot of things in I think you can have a lot of things in life that are sort of you know small life that are sort of you know small life that are sort of you know small test options and things like that. But I test options and things like that. But I test options and things like that. But I also what I really took from that is also what I really took from that is also what I really took from that is that there come these times when you that there come these times when you that there come these times when you just go all in. And this is the key in just go all in. And this is the key in just go all in. And this is the key in low odds games, games where there's a low odds games, games where there's a low odds games, games where there's a very low odds of success very low odds of success very low odds of success statistically. statistically. statistically. If you don't go If you don't go If you don't go 100% allin, 100% allin, 100% allin, the odds will be zero. Mhm. the odds will be zero. Mhm. the odds will be zero. Mhm. >> So you're either looking at a 2% chance >> So you're either looking at a 2% chance >> So you're either looking at a 2% chance or a 0% chance. I'll take two over zero. or a 0% chance. I'll take two over zero. or a 0% chance. I'll take two over zero. >> And zero is like anything from 0% to 80% >> And zero is like anything from 0% to 80% >> And zero is like anything from 0% to 80% commitment is a zero. commitment is a zero. commitment is a zero. >> Exactly. And and you can see it in the >> Exactly. And and you can see it in the >> Exactly. And and you can see it in the people in our study at certain points in people in our study at certain points in people in our study at certain points in their life their life their life when they went once they got clear right when they went once they got clear right when they went once they got clear right they got out of a fog phase or they were they got out of a fog phase or they were they got out of a fog phase or they were sort of clicked into frame for the first sort of clicked into frame for the first sort of clicked into frame for the first time. I mean, the extent to which they time. I mean, the extent to which they time. I mean, the extent to which they were in, I mean, it was it was this is were in, I mean, it was it was this is were in, I mean, it was it was this is what I'm doing. I'm not looking back. what I'm doing. I'm not looking back. what I'm doing. I'm not looking back. Here we go. That moment Here we go. That moment Here we go. That moment when Franklin when Franklin when Franklin gets dressed down by the privy council gets dressed down by the privy council gets dressed down by the privy council and he realizes that it is finally, you and he realizes that it is finally, you and he realizes that it is finally, you know, there has to be the separation know, there has to be the separation know, there has to be the separation from from from >> such a great story. >> such a great story. >> such a great story. >> Oh god, they're dressing him down and >> Oh god, they're dressing him down and >> Oh god, they're dressing him down and he's just like he's just like he's just like >> walked in an Englishman and walked out >> walked in an Englishman and walked out >> walked in an Englishman and walked out an American. an American. an American. >> Yeah. as a history professor put it and >> Yeah. as a history professor put it and >> Yeah. as a history professor put it and I I I'm pretty sure I quoted him the I I I'm pretty sure I quoted him the I I I'm pretty sure I quoted him the history professor because this is history professor because this is history professor because this is perfect. He walked in an Englishman, perfect. He walked in an Englishman, perfect. He walked in an Englishman, walked out an American. But then think walked out an American. But then think walked out an American. But then think think about then when they did the think about then when they did the think about then when they did the Declaration of Independence because what Declaration of Independence because what Declaration of Independence because what I came to understand by studying Roger I came to understand by studying Roger I came to understand by studying Roger Sherman and Benjamin Franklin who are Sherman and Benjamin Franklin who are Sherman and Benjamin Franklin who are the pair in this is obviously historians the pair in this is obviously historians the pair in this is obviously historians know this really well. But I had to know this really well. But I had to know this really well. But I had to learn a lot about the American learn a lot about the American learn a lot about the American Revolution, the founding of the country, Revolution, the founding of the country, Revolution, the founding of the country, the constitution, all this kind of stuff the constitution, all this kind of stuff the constitution, all this kind of stuff through the pair of these people and through the pair of these people and through the pair of these people and this difference between separating from this difference between separating from this difference between separating from like parliament and separating from the like parliament and separating from the like parliament and separating from the king. And the declaration of king. And the declaration of king. And the declaration of independence was separating from the independence was separating from the independence was separating from the king and that thing of an understanding king and that thing of an understanding king and that thing of an understanding that when we signed this document, that when we signed this document, that when we signed this document, we lose, we die, we all die. This is a we lose, we die, we all die. This is a we lose, we die, we all die. This is a death warrant if we don't win. And that death warrant if we don't win. And that death warrant if we don't win. And that moment of putting your signature on the moment of putting your signature on the moment of putting your signature on the Declaration of Independence Declaration of Independence Declaration of Independence would result in your death if you don't would result in your death if you don't would result in your death if you don't win win win has a way of focusing the mind to win. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> No options. >> No options. >> No options. I'd love to hear you discuss for a bit I'd love to hear you discuss for a bit I'd love to hear you discuss for a bit >> what you learned from simply choosing >> what you learned from simply choosing >> what you learned from simply choosing who to include in the book because who to include in the book because who to include in the book because >> you've applied much like sometimes >> you've applied much like sometimes >> you've applied much like sometimes people think of options as always good people think of options as always good people think of options as always good things not true things not true things not true >> people may think of constraints as bad >> people may think of constraints as bad >> people may think of constraints as bad things but very often necessary positive things but very often necessary positive things but very often necessary positive constraints are a real thing so having constraints are a real thing so having constraints are a real thing so having matched pairs requires it's a forcing matched pairs requires it's a forcing matched pairs requires it's a forcing function filtering Right. And even with function filtering Right. And even with function filtering Right. And even with matched pairs, you have many you could matched pairs, you have many you could matched pairs, you have many you could ostensibly choose from, and you had to ostensibly choose from, and you had to ostensibly choose from, and you had to winnow that down to something that could winnow that down to something that could winnow that down to something that could be contained in a coherent way in this be contained in a coherent way in this be contained in a coherent way in this book. book. book. >> And I'm wondering if as an entire group >> And I'm wondering if as an entire group >> And I'm wondering if as an entire group >> Mhm. you learned from who you chose to >> Mhm. you learned from who you chose to >> Mhm. you learned from who you chose to omit as opposed to who to include and if omit as opposed to who to include and if omit as opposed to who to include and if anything distinguished anything distinguished anything distinguished one group from another meaning who made one group from another meaning who made one group from another meaning who made it and who didn't make it it and who didn't make it it and who didn't make it >> outside of the matched pair forcing >> outside of the matched pair forcing >> outside of the matched pair forcing function. there was a function. there was a function. there was a a journey of really looking for a range a journey of really looking for a range a journey of really looking for a range of people who would shine a light on the of people who would shine a light on the of people who would shine a light on the questions that I was interested in. But questions that I was interested in. But questions that I was interested in. But there's lots of folks that for whatever there's lots of folks that for whatever there's lots of folks that for whatever reason in the end I ended up not reason in the end I ended up not reason in the end I ended up not including and partly one of the first including and partly one of the first including and partly one of the first you put it right on number one. If I was you put it right on number one. If I was you put it right on number one. If I was going to have matched pairs I've got to going to have matched pairs I've got to going to have matched pairs I've got to find the opposite side of the pair. So find the opposite side of the pair. So find the opposite side of the pair. So if I found somebody so I'll give a if I found somebody so I'll give a if I found somebody so I'll give a really good example. We're just talking really good example. We're just talking really good example. We're just talking about Roger Sherman and Benjamin about Roger Sherman and Benjamin about Roger Sherman and Benjamin Franklin. I thought that this was back Franklin. I thought that this was back Franklin. I thought that this was back when I originally flamed it as renewal, when I originally flamed it as renewal, when I originally flamed it as renewal, but then began to look at an entire but then began to look at an entire but then began to look at an entire life. But I always thought Franklin life. But I always thought Franklin life. But I always thought Franklin would be fascinating to study. He is the would be fascinating to study. He is the would be fascinating to study. He is the kind of first poster child of great kind of first poster child of great kind of first poster child of great stuff late. I mean, the things that he stuff late. I mean, the things that he stuff late. I mean, the things that he did 70 and beyond. And of course, most did 70 and beyond. And of course, most did 70 and beyond. And of course, most of the people in our study did great of the people in our study did great of the people in our study did great stuff late, too. That's one of the most stuff late, too. That's one of the most stuff late, too. That's one of the most uplifting findings of the study is how uplifting findings of the study is how uplifting findings of the study is how much great stuff happens late. But I was much great stuff happens late. But I was much great stuff happens late. But I was just fascinated by Franklin that way. just fascinated by Franklin that way. just fascinated by Franklin that way. But then, how do you find a match pair But then, how do you find a match pair But then, how do you find a match pair for Benjamin Franklin? And I was like, for Benjamin Franklin? And I was like, for Benjamin Franklin? And I was like, well, we may not be able to have well, we may not be able to have well, we may not be able to have Franklin because I don't think there's Franklin because I don't think there's Franklin because I don't think there's going to be a match. How do you find a going to be a match. How do you find a going to be a match. How do you find a match for Franklin? And so member of my match for Franklin? And so member of my match for Franklin? And so member of my team and I kind of puzzled on this and team and I kind of puzzled on this and team and I kind of puzzled on this and we came up with this idea which is we we came up with this idea which is we we came up with this idea which is we said, well, let's just take all the said, well, let's just take all the said, well, let's just take all the names of all the people who signed the names of all the people who signed the names of all the people who signed the Declaration of Independence and who were Declaration of Independence and who were Declaration of Independence and who were also at the Constitutional Convention. also at the Constitutional Convention. also at the Constitutional Convention. That'll be a starting set. Now, what That'll be a starting set. Now, what That'll be a starting set. Now, what we'll do is we'll go pull apart all we'll do is we'll go pull apart all we'll do is we'll go pull apart all those lives those lives those lives looking to see if there's anybody that looking to see if there's anybody that looking to see if there's anybody that meets the following tests. One came from meets the following tests. One came from meets the following tests. One came from what they call the leather apron class. what they call the leather apron class. what they call the leather apron class. Two through self-education became a Two through self-education became a Two through self-education became a successful business person and hard successful business person and hard successful business person and hard work. Three then went on to sort of a work. Three then went on to sort of a work. Three then went on to sort of a second life after that in some form some second life after that in some form some second life after that in some form some sort of interesting way. Four played a sort of interesting way. Four played a sort of interesting way. Four played a significant role in the founding significant role in the founding significant role in the founding documents of the United States and five documents of the United States and five documents of the United States and five would have been kind of a comparable age would have been kind of a comparable age would have been kind of a comparable age cohort to Benjamin Franklin. Right? the cohort to Benjamin Franklin. Right? the cohort to Benjamin Franklin. Right? the whole thing like just go through and you whole thing like just go through and you whole thing like just go through and you start taking all these people in this start taking all these people in this start taking all these people in this long list and you start ticking it off long list and you start ticking it off long list and you start ticking it off and ticking off and then all of a sudden and ticking off and then all of a sudden and ticking off and then all of a sudden we discovered Roger Sherman who met all we discovered Roger Sherman who met all we discovered Roger Sherman who met all of those tests who turns out to be one of those tests who turns out to be one of those tests who turns out to be one of the great finds for me in the study. of the great finds for me in the study. of the great finds for me in the study. Almost no one knows about Roger Well, Almost no one knows about Roger Well, Almost no one knows about Roger Well, that's not true. I didn't know much that's not true. I didn't know much that's not true. I didn't know much about Roger Sherman. about Roger Sherman. about Roger Sherman. >> I didn't either. >> I didn't either. >> I didn't either. >> And he saved the Constitution twice. >> And he saved the Constitution twice. >> And he saved the Constitution twice. >> The way you penned the introduction to >> The way you penned the introduction to >> The way you penned the introduction to that that that >> Oh, yeah. Who is this >> Oh, yeah. Who is this >> Oh, yeah. Who is this >> section was really really funny. >> section was really really funny. >> section was really really funny. >> Yeah. Who is this guy? And he turns out >> Yeah. Who is this guy? And he turns out >> Yeah. Who is this guy? And he turns out to be amazing. and they were the two to be amazing. and they were the two to be amazing. and they were the two oldest people at the constitutional oldest people at the constitutional oldest people at the constitutional convention. They played a seinal role in convention. They played a seinal role in convention. They played a seinal role in the founding of the country. And so it the founding of the country. And so it the founding of the country. And so it was but if I wouldn't have found was but if I wouldn't have found was but if I wouldn't have found Sherman, I wouldn't have been able to Sherman, I wouldn't have been able to Sherman, I wouldn't have been able to have Franklin because I wouldn't have have Franklin because I wouldn't have have Franklin because I wouldn't have had the match. And and so throughout the had the match. And and so throughout the had the match. And and so throughout the entire study, there was this constant entire study, there was this constant entire study, there was this constant process of God, that'd be really process of God, that'd be really process of God, that'd be really interesting, but is there a match? I interesting, but is there a match? I interesting, but is there a match? I thought it'd be fabulous to have like thought it'd be fabulous to have like thought it'd be fabulous to have like Lenin and McCartney, but you have an Lenin and McCartney, but you have an Lenin and McCartney, but you have an asymmetry. Tragically, sadly, we lost asymmetry. Tragically, sadly, we lost asymmetry. Tragically, sadly, we lost John Lennon at a point where all of a John Lennon at a point where all of a John Lennon at a point where all of a sudden his life's truncated and so it sudden his life's truncated and so it sudden his life's truncated and so it just wouldn't have been as good of a just wouldn't have been as good of a just wouldn't have been as good of a match to look all the way out, right? match to look all the way out, right? match to look all the way out, right? So, ended up with Plant and Paige from So, ended up with Plant and Paige from So, ended up with Plant and Paige from Zeppelin, which I think was a phenomenal Zeppelin, which I think was a phenomenal Zeppelin, which I think was a phenomenal match. And so, just time and again. And match. And so, just time and again. And match. And so, just time and again. And then the other part was I wanted then the other part was I wanted then the other part was I wanted different walks of life. I wanted different walks of life. I wanted different walks of life. I wanted scientists. I wanted writers. I wanted, scientists. I wanted writers. I wanted, scientists. I wanted writers. I wanted, you know, I wanted different very you know, I wanted different very you know, I wanted different very different kinds of roles and things that different kinds of roles and things that different kinds of roles and things that people did. and different eras, right? people did. and different eras, right? people did. and different eras, right? I've got the suffrage era. I've got the I've got the suffrage era. I've got the I've got the suffrage era. I've got the founding of the country. I've got, you founding of the country. I've got, you founding of the country. I've got, you know, the 19, you know, 20s or 40s or know, the 19, you know, 20s or 40s or know, the 19, you know, 20s or 40s or 60s or whatever. But the other is they 60s or whatever. But the other is they 60s or whatever. But the other is they all had to be people where all had to be people where all had to be people where their life, even if it's not over, and their life, even if it's not over, and their life, even if it's not over, and most of them it is over, most of them it is over, most of them it is over, is largely in the record books, right? is largely in the record books, right? is largely in the record books, right? They couldn't be at an age where you you They couldn't be at an age where you you They couldn't be at an age where you you sort of don't know what's really going sort of don't know what's really going sort of don't know what's really going to happen. There's too much more yet to to happen. There's too much more yet to to happen. There's too much more yet to live. And I'm really glad I stuck to live. And I'm really glad I stuck to live. And I'm really glad I stuck to that because that's what really showed that because that's what really showed that because that's what really showed the hey look at what happens after 50 60 the hey look at what happens after 50 60 the hey look at what happens after 50 60 70 and beyond. So let me ask a sort of 70 and beyond. So let me ask a sort of 70 and beyond. So let me ask a sort of holistic question about all the folks holistic question about all the folks holistic question about all the folks that were included also and that is that were included also and that is that were included also and that is it's dangerous to assume but presumably it's dangerous to assume but presumably it's dangerous to assume but presumably you could have chosen a cohort you could have chosen a cohort you could have chosen a cohort and I've looked a lot just given my and I've looked a lot just given my and I've looked a lot just given my involvement in science and studies and involvement in science and studies and involvement in science and studies and so on these metaanalyses of so on these metaanalyses of so on these metaanalyses of key contributions to science and perhaps key contributions to science and perhaps key contributions to science and perhaps they're awarded with the Nobel Prize or they're awarded with the Nobel Prize or they're awarded with the Nobel Prize or something much much later but something much much later but something much much later but >> a lot of scientists >> a lot of scientists >> a lot of scientists it seems, produce their most compelling it seems, produce their most compelling it seems, produce their most compelling work, let's just say sort of in their work, let's just say sort of in their work, let's just say sort of in their startup years, right? In quintessential startup years, right? In quintessential startup years, right? In quintessential startup Silicon Valley terms like 18 to startup Silicon Valley terms like 18 to startup Silicon Valley terms like 18 to 25 or 18 to 30, something like that. 25 or 18 to 30, something like that. 25 or 18 to 30, something like that. If that if we take that just as a If that if we take that just as a If that if we take that just as a placeholder to be true for some many placeholder to be true for some many placeholder to be true for some many scientists and maybe even more broadly scientists and maybe even more broadly scientists and maybe even more broadly speaking in other disciplines, speaking in other disciplines, speaking in other disciplines, what separates what separates what separates the people who in the book are so the people who in the book are so the people who in the book are so consistently incredibly consistently incredibly consistently incredibly productive in their later years from the productive in their later years from the productive in their later years from the people who don't do that? First of all, people who don't do that? First of all, people who don't do that? First of all, before we even just get into this a before we even just get into this a before we even just get into this a little bit, I want to ask you a little bit, I want to ask you a little bit, I want to ask you a question, which is where do you think question, which is where do you think question, which is where do you think this mythology comes from? That this mythology comes from? That this mythology comes from? That creativity, innovation, breakthroughs, creativity, innovation, breakthroughs, creativity, innovation, breakthroughs, best work, etc., etc., is the province best work, etc., etc., is the province best work, etc., etc., is the province of the young. of the young. of the young. >> Where do I think it comes from? >> Where do I think it comes from? >> Where do I think it comes from? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, okay. My thoughts may not be >> Well, okay. My thoughts may not be >> Well, okay. My thoughts may not be appetizing, but let's give it a shot. So appetizing, but let's give it a shot. So appetizing, but let's give it a shot. So I I think about this I I think about this I I think about this part of part of part of how I'll answer echoes I think some of how I'll answer echoes I think some of how I'll answer echoes I think some of how you approach your work in the sense how you approach your work in the sense how you approach your work in the sense that why do you study publicly traded that why do you study publicly traded that why do you study publicly traded companies because you can compare them companies because you can compare them companies because you can compare them across metrics and criteria that are across metrics and criteria that are across metrics and criteria that are publicly available. You have the data publicly available. You have the data publicly available. You have the data >> have the data >> have the data >> have the data >> and I don't want to make everything >> and I don't want to make everything >> and I don't want to make everything about startups but I do find startups a about startups but I do find startups a about startups but I do find startups a really strange fascinating really strange fascinating really strange fascinating laboratory within which you can look at laboratory within which you can look at laboratory within which you can look at different types of phenomena. And I'm different types of phenomena. And I'm different types of phenomena. And I'm currently right now I have a whole group currently right now I have a whole group currently right now I have a whole group of people and we're also using cloud of people and we're also using cloud of people and we're also using cloud code and all sorts of stuff to do the code and all sorts of stuff to do the code and all sorts of stuff to do the most intense fine detailed analysis of most intense fine detailed analysis of most intense fine detailed analysis of my last 20 years of investing in my last 20 years of investing in my last 20 years of investing in startups that you could possibly startups that you could possibly startups that you could possibly imagine. imagine. imagine. >> It's pretty incredible what you can do >> It's pretty incredible what you can do >> It's pretty incredible what you can do with enriching data and with enriching data and with enriching data and >> so on. But one of the questions is age >> so on. But one of the questions is age >> so on. But one of the questions is age of founder, right? What do you see when of founder, right? What do you see when of founder, right? What do you see when you're when you're sorting by age as a you're when you're sorting by age as a you're when you're sorting by age as a founder as as one variable which is not founder as as one variable which is not founder as as one variable which is not independent and I would say that I think independent and I would say that I think independent and I would say that I think the belief whether it's a myth or not the belief whether it's a myth or not the belief whether it's a myth or not and I think it's situationally dependent and I think it's situationally dependent and I think it's situationally dependent part of it is and hence my incessant part of it is and hence my incessant part of it is and hence my incessant annoying questions about energy is that annoying questions about energy is that annoying questions about energy is that for certain disciplines the intensity for certain disciplines the intensity for certain disciplines the intensity required to sustain like a Natalie required to sustain like a Natalie required to sustain like a Natalie over years of intensity is constrained over years of intensity is constrained over years of intensity is constrained by energy and you and sometimes it's by energy and you and sometimes it's by energy and you and sometimes it's also constrained by responsibilities. So also constrained by responsibilities. So also constrained by responsibilities. So if you are early 20s, you're living on a if you are early 20s, you're living on a if you are early 20s, you're living on a futon in a cockroachinfested apartment futon in a cockroachinfested apartment futon in a cockroachinfested apartment eating ramen to survive and that's good eating ramen to survive and that's good eating ramen to survive and that's good enough for you at the time. There is a enough for you at the time. There is a enough for you at the time. There is a certain competitive advantage to that. I certain competitive advantage to that. I certain competitive advantage to that. I think there's also possibly just a think there's also possibly just a think there's also possibly just a mitochondrial mitochondrial mitochondrial physical advantage. So you see a lot of physical advantage. So you see a lot of physical advantage. So you see a lot of home runs are created in it seems like home runs are created in it seems like home runs are created in it seems like to me I haven't done a fine tooth comb to me I haven't done a fine tooth comb to me I haven't done a fine tooth comb analysis of this people produce a lot of analysis of this people produce a lot of analysis of this people produce a lot of their best work when they're in those their best work when they're in those their best work when they're in those kind of professional sports peak years. kind of professional sports peak years. kind of professional sports peak years. It's not that they're limited to that. I It's not that they're limited to that. I It's not that they're limited to that. I think that's a piece of it is just think that's a piece of it is just think that's a piece of it is just energetic energetic energetic intensity endurance advantage which may intensity endurance advantage which may intensity endurance advantage which may be physiologically bound. be physiologically bound. be physiologically bound. >> Yeah. You know that's one that's one. >> Yeah. You know that's one that's one. >> Yeah. You know that's one that's one. Yeah. What are your thoughts? Yeah. What are your thoughts? Yeah. What are your thoughts? >> First of all, I think it's really >> First of all, I think it's really >> First of all, I think it's really interesting and I would I would process interesting and I would I would process interesting and I would I would process this through a different lens actually this through a different lens actually this through a different lens actually at this point which is that at this point which is that at this point which is that >> yeah the way I would process this having >> yeah the way I would process this having >> yeah the way I would process this having done this study is I think it's not a done this study is I think it's not a done this study is I think it's not a question of energy. I think it's a question of energy. I think it's a question of energy. I think it's a question of being in frame with your question of being in frame with your question of being in frame with your encodings and that if you are I don't encodings and that if you are I don't encodings and that if you are I don't think the energy is I mean there's think the energy is I mean there's think the energy is I mean there's physical things like you can have a physical things like you can have a physical things like you can have a something that catches up with you something that catches up with you something that catches up with you physically of course right or you might physically of course right or you might physically of course right or you might have a autoimmune disease or something have a autoimmune disease or something have a autoimmune disease or something like that okay but setting aside things like that okay but setting aside things like that okay but setting aside things physically health-wise that begin to to physically health-wise that begin to to physically health-wise that begin to to come at you I just see repeated levels come at you I just see repeated levels come at you I just see repeated levels of evidence from the lives I studied of evidence from the lives I studied of evidence from the lives I studied here and people I've known over the here and people I've known over the here and people I've known over the course of my more classic work people course of my more classic work people course of my more classic work people building companies and so on and so building companies and so on and so building companies and so on and so forth that there's no evidence to me forth that there's no evidence to me forth that there's no evidence to me that the energy goes down it goes up that the energy goes down it goes up that the energy goes down it goes up that the creativity goes down it goes up that the creativity goes down it goes up that the creativity goes down it goes up and what I would say is that a founder and what I would say is that a founder and what I would say is that a founder that kind of burns out might have not that kind of burns out might have not that kind of burns out might have not even really been in frame being a even really been in frame being a even really been in frame being a founder and the ones who really are in founder and the ones who really are in founder and the ones who really are in frame building a company is just so if frame building a company is just so if frame building a company is just so if you take a Sam Walton or a Walt Disney you take a Sam Walton or a Walt Disney you take a Sam Walton or a Walt Disney or Steve Jobs there's no evidence to me or Steve Jobs there's no evidence to me or Steve Jobs there's no evidence to me that their creativity that their that their creativity that their that their creativity that their intensity intensity intensity waned until they were basically like waned until they were basically like waned until they were basically like expiring. And I mean Sam, he had bone expiring. And I mean Sam, he had bone expiring. And I mean Sam, he had bone cancer and he lived a very simple life. cancer and he lived a very simple life. cancer and he lived a very simple life. I don't think that some of the people I I don't think that some of the people I I don't think that some of the people I studied that their lives changed very studied that their lives changed very studied that their lives changed very much. Their circumstances changed terms much. Their circumstances changed terms much. Their circumstances changed terms of the amount of wealth they had, but of the amount of wealth they had, but of the amount of wealth they had, but the way they lived didn't really change. the way they lived didn't really change. the way they lived didn't really change. And still get up every day and they go And still get up every day and they go And still get up every day and they go to work and they do the thing that to work and they do the thing that to work and they do the thing that they're there to do. And Walt is still they're there to do. And Walt is still they're there to do. And Walt is still thinking about like what the next thing thinking about like what the next thing thinking about like what the next thing at Epcot might be. and and Sam is still at Epcot might be. and and Sam is still at Epcot might be. and and Sam is still thinking about the expansion of stores thinking about the expansion of stores thinking about the expansion of stores and what could happen with the culture and what could happen with the culture and what could happen with the culture and Steve Jobs is thinking about you and Steve Jobs is thinking about you and Steve Jobs is thinking about you know what will be the next iteration of know what will be the next iteration of know what will be the next iteration of sorts of things and how can he set up sorts of things and how can he set up sorts of things and how can he set up Apple to be outstanding beyond him and Apple to be outstanding beyond him and Apple to be outstanding beyond him and then and then life the clock stops at then and then life the clock stops at then and then life the clock stops at some point but until then they don't some point but until then they don't some point but until then they don't stop they don't stop they just don't stop they don't stop they just don't stop they don't stop they just don't >> yeah yeah >> yeah yeah >> yeah yeah >> so this idea >> so this idea >> so this idea that somehow it goes like this peak and that somehow it goes like this peak and that somehow it goes like this peak and fall right fall right fall right >> peak and fall I see it as a peak when >> peak and fall I see it as a peak when >> peak and fall I see it as a peak when you're young isn't this it's a peak and you're young isn't this it's a peak and you're young isn't this it's a peak and then there's Yes. And it just goes up then there's Yes. And it just goes up then there's Yes. And it just goes up and up and up and up and up and up and and up and up and up and up and up and and up and up and up and up and up and up. I mean, you found a media empire up. I mean, you found a media empire up. I mean, you found a media empire peak. You found a nation. peak. You found a nation. peak. You found a nation. >> It's a pretty tough act to follow. >> It's a pretty tough act to follow. >> It's a pretty tough act to follow. >> Yeah. Exactly. And even in the science >> Yeah. Exactly. And even in the science >> Yeah. Exactly. And even in the science or creative areas, you know what it's or creative areas, you know what it's or creative areas, you know what it's like to write a book. like to write a book. like to write a book. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And how exhausting it is, how draining >> And how exhausting it is, how draining >> And how exhausting it is, how draining it is. And you look at Tony Morrison it is. And you look at Tony Morrison it is. And you look at Tony Morrison doesn't even become a writer until her doesn't even become a writer until her doesn't even become a writer until her 40s. She comes into frame as a writer. 40s. She comes into frame as a writer. 40s. She comes into frame as a writer. She doesn't publish Beloved till she's She doesn't publish Beloved till she's She doesn't publish Beloved till she's 56. She doesn't publish Jazz until 61, 56. She doesn't publish Jazz until 61, 56. She doesn't publish Jazz until 61, which is an astounding thing. And then which is an astounding thing. And then which is an astounding thing. And then she just goes on and there's no she just goes on and there's no she just goes on and there's no evidence. Anybody want to say that? evidence. Anybody want to say that? evidence. Anybody want to say that? Well, Tony Morrison was slowing down Well, Tony Morrison was slowing down Well, Tony Morrison was slowing down when she did Beloved because she's after when she did Beloved because she's after when she did Beloved because she's after 50. 50. 50. >> No, >> No, >> No, >> no, not true. >> no, not true. >> no, not true. >> And Barbara McClinintok, Grace Hopper, >> And Barbara McClinintok, Grace Hopper, >> And Barbara McClinintok, Grace Hopper, Grace Hopper made huge contributions to Grace Hopper made huge contributions to Grace Hopper made huge contributions to computer science. those happened as her computer science. those happened as her computer science. those happened as her second career. second career. second career. Barbara Mcccleintoch's breakthrough on Barbara Mcccleintoch's breakthrough on Barbara Mcccleintoch's breakthrough on transpositional genetic elements when it transpositional genetic elements when it transpositional genetic elements when it all came together happened after the all came together happened after the all came together happened after the midpoint of her life which was in her midpoint of her life which was in her midpoint of her life which was in her late 40s. So this idea that it happens late 40s. So this idea that it happens late 40s. So this idea that it happens early and then I can and if I go back to early and then I can and if I go back to early and then I can and if I go back to my classic work and the people who built my classic work and the people who built my classic work and the people who built companies, the ones who really built companies, the ones who really built companies, the ones who really built companies, the reason why I think they companies, the reason why I think they companies, the reason why I think they didn't like have this peak early and didn't like have this peak early and didn't like have this peak early and then they're just sort of exhausted and then they're just sort of exhausted and then they're just sort of exhausted and burned out is because they were in burned out is because they were in burned out is because they were in frame. Sam Walton was encoded to build frame. Sam Walton was encoded to build frame. Sam Walton was encoded to build Walmart. Steve Jobs was encoded to build Walmart. Steve Jobs was encoded to build Walmart. Steve Jobs was encoded to build Apple. Walt Disney was encoded to build Apple. Walt Disney was encoded to build Apple. Walt Disney was encoded to build Disney. And if you're encoded to build Disney. And if you're encoded to build Disney. And if you're encoded to build your company the way they were encoded your company the way they were encoded your company the way they were encoded to build their companies, a startup is to build their companies, a startup is to build their companies, a startup is just kind of the first step. And you just kind of the first step. And you just kind of the first step. And you would still eat ramen to do it. Can I would still eat ramen to do it. Can I would still eat ramen to do it. Can I offer an an alternate? offer an an alternate? offer an an alternate? >> Forget me. I just I I I I chafe against >> Forget me. I just I I I I chafe against >> Forget me. I just I I I I chafe against the the the >> I love it. I want the chafing. A >> I love it. I want the chafing. A >> I love it. I want the chafing. A sentence you don't hear very often. No, sentence you don't hear very often. No, sentence you don't hear very often. No, I'm into it. the the alternate I'm into it. the the alternate I'm into it. the the alternate explanation I wanted to offer maybe it's explanation I wanted to offer maybe it's explanation I wanted to offer maybe it's complimentary but let's let's just say complimentary but let's let's just say complimentary but let's let's just say we rule out my theory of professional we rule out my theory of professional we rule out my theory of professional sports physiological advantage I think sports physiological advantage I think sports physiological advantage I think there's a piece of that sometimes there's a piece of that sometimes there's a piece of that sometimes >> sure for like singing and stuff sure >> sure for like singing and stuff sure >> sure for like singing and stuff sure >> I won't drag that particular piece out >> I won't drag that particular piece out >> I won't drag that particular piece out but let's say I take it off the table but let's say I take it off the table but let's say I take it off the table the reason I was asking about the 50 30 the reason I was asking about the 50 30 the reason I was asking about the 50 30 20 right how do you actually maintain 20 right how do you actually maintain 20 right how do you actually maintain the 50% of your time allocated to new the 50% of your time allocated to new the 50% of your time allocated to new intellectual creative work is because intellectual creative work is because intellectual creative work is because the alternate explanation I would the alternate explanation I would the alternate explanation I would probably vote for as to why some people probably vote for as to why some people probably vote for as to why some people seem to get lost or certainly don't seem to get lost or certainly don't seem to get lost or certainly don't focus on their encodings after some focus on their encodings after some focus on their encodings after some initial success and therefore you do see initial success and therefore you do see initial success and therefore you do see a peak and maybe a decline or plateau a peak and maybe a decline or plateau a peak and maybe a decline or plateau is that in the beginning sounds like is that in the beginning sounds like is that in the beginning sounds like you've sustained this very well. They you've sustained this very well. They you've sustained this very well. They wake up they know exactly what they're wake up they know exactly what they're wake up they know exactly what they're doing. they are doing one or two things doing. they are doing one or two things doing. they are doing one or two things but there is a primary and let's just but there is a primary and let's just but there is a primary and let's just say it's a startup it's making this say it's a startup it's making this say it's a startup it's making this metric go up 5% per week or per month metric go up 5% per week or per month metric go up 5% per week or per month compounding over time that's it that is compounding over time that's it that is compounding over time that's it that is the focus period end of story and when the focus period end of story and when the focus period end of story and when you have a modeicum of success or a you have a modeicum of success or a you have a modeicum of success or a lightning bolt of success and you see lightning bolt of success and you see lightning bolt of success and you see this in Nobel Prize winners right I this in Nobel Prize winners right I this in Nobel Prize winners right I can't remember the term for it it's like can't remember the term for it it's like can't remember the term for it it's like no syndrome or something no syndrome or something no syndrome or something >> yeah where their productivity just >> yeah where their productivity just >> yeah where their productivity just plummets afterwards why because they're plummets afterwards why because they're plummets afterwards why because they're now getting all of these invitations now getting all of these invitations now getting all of these invitations over the transom over the transom over the transom And similarly, it's like when when fill And similarly, it's like when when fill And similarly, it's like when when fill in the blank founder putting Steve Jobs in the blank founder putting Steve Jobs in the blank founder putting Steve Jobs aside, although he had his periods in aside, although he had his periods in aside, although he had his periods in the fog for sure. the fog for sure. the fog for sure. >> Well, for sure after he got fired, which >> Well, for sure after he got fired, which >> Well, for sure after he got fired, which was a cliff, was a cliff, was a cliff, >> right? So, taking someone who's maybe, >> right? So, taking someone who's maybe, >> right? So, taking someone who's maybe, you could take your pick, of hundreds of you could take your pick, of hundreds of you could take your pick, of hundreds of founders who've had an exit of some type founders who've had an exit of some type founders who've had an exit of some type or done well enough that now they don't or done well enough that now they don't or done well enough that now they don't necessarily feel like they have a demon necessarily feel like they have a demon necessarily feel like they have a demon whipping them at their back. Again, that whipping them at their back. Again, that whipping them at their back. Again, that >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> is not necessarily entirely compatible >> is not necessarily entirely compatible >> is not necessarily entirely compatible with the the encodings, but the the with the the encodings, but the the with the the encodings, but the the point being now they're thinking about point being now they're thinking about point being now they're thinking about the charity whose board they just the charity whose board they just the charity whose board they just joined. They're thinking about any joined. They're thinking about any joined. They're thinking about any number of other things that slowly or number of other things that slowly or number of other things that slowly or quickly eat up the pie chart of time quickly eat up the pie chart of time quickly eat up the pie chart of time such that they are well below their 50% such that they are well below their 50% such that they are well below their 50% in terms of new intellectual creative in terms of new intellectual creative in terms of new intellectual creative work or applying it to their encodings. work or applying it to their encodings. work or applying it to their encodings. How have you seen people most reliably How have you seen people most reliably How have you seen people most reliably preserve that outside of some mutants preserve that outside of some mutants preserve that outside of some mutants who are maybe like I certainly see this who are maybe like I certainly see this who are maybe like I certainly see this in Silicon Valley on the spectrum who in Silicon Valley on the spectrum who in Silicon Valley on the spectrum who are seem unable to do anything but focus are seem unable to do anything but focus are seem unable to do anything but focus on their encodings. What have you on their encodings. What have you on their encodings. What have you observed in in all of your studies to observed in in all of your studies to observed in in all of your studies to people who are how they are good at people who are how they are good at people who are how they are good at preserving the majority of the pie chart preserving the majority of the pie chart preserving the majority of the pie chart for their encodings because I find it for their encodings because I find it for their encodings because I find it very very very challenging. very very very challenging. very very very challenging. >> I do. I do. I'm not going to lie. >> I do. I do. I'm not going to lie. >> I do. I do. I'm not going to lie. >> It is just for myself. I have one great >> It is just for myself. I have one great >> It is just for myself. I have one great advantage which just part of my advantage which just part of my advantage which just part of my encodings going all the way back to the encodings going all the way back to the encodings going all the way back to the way you even wrote about described our way you even wrote about described our way you even wrote about described our first conversation. I'm belligerently first conversation. I'm belligerently first conversation. I'm belligerently reclusive. It's a temperament, right? reclusive. It's a temperament, right? reclusive. It's a temperament, right? It's a temperament. People have often It's a temperament. People have often It's a temperament. People have often said, "Well, Jim, you must be feel said, "Well, Jim, you must be feel said, "Well, Jim, you must be feel really lucky that you're, you know, really lucky that you're, you know, really lucky that you're, you know, you're in you're such an enviable you're in you're such an enviable you're in you're such an enviable position because it's easy for you to be position because it's easy for you to be position because it's easy for you to be selective and to say no to stuff because selective and to say no to stuff because selective and to say no to stuff because you have so much to select from." And you have so much to select from." And you have so much to select from." And what they don't see is that I was always what they don't see is that I was always what they don't see is that I was always selective even when I didn't have selective even when I didn't have selective even when I didn't have anything to select from. Right? It's an anything to select from. Right? It's an anything to select from. Right? It's an encoded mode that I've always had. So encoded mode that I've always had. So encoded mode that I've always had. So for me, it's it's been I think easier for me, it's it's been I think easier for me, it's it's been I think easier than for some people because they maybe than for some people because they maybe than for some people because they maybe don't have that encoded mode of don't have that encoded mode of don't have that encoded mode of belligerently reclusive and naturally belligerently reclusive and naturally belligerently reclusive and naturally selective as a way of being independent selective as a way of being independent selective as a way of being independent of circumstance. But then that that of circumstance. But then that that of circumstance. But then that that brings me to brings me to brings me to I think what I would really see with the I think what I would really see with the I think what I would really see with the people in our study is that there's people in our study is that there's people in our study is that there's phases of life. I don't think they're phases of life. I don't think they're phases of life. I don't think they're common stages by the way. They're just common stages by the way. They're just common stages by the way. They're just phases. You're kind of in a phase or out phases. You're kind of in a phase or out phases. You're kind of in a phase or out of a phase. And there's what I would of a phase. And there's what I would of a phase. And there's what I would describe as kind of clarity phases and describe as kind of clarity phases and describe as kind of clarity phases and fog phases. And we talked about the fog fog phases. And we talked about the fog fog phases. And we talked about the fog phases. But there are also these times phases. But there are also these times phases. But there are also these times of great clarity when they click into of great clarity when they click into of great clarity when they click into frame with a really big thing. And frame with a really big thing. And frame with a really big thing. And sometimes they click into frame with a sometimes they click into frame with a sometimes they click into frame with a really big thing. And it is the big really big thing. And it is the big really big thing. And it is the big thing till the day they die, right? It thing till the day they die, right? It thing till the day they die, right? It just they just all the way to the end. just they just all the way to the end. just they just all the way to the end. They may have cliffs, but it doesn't They may have cliffs, but it doesn't They may have cliffs, but it doesn't knock them into doing something else. knock them into doing something else. knock them into doing something else. Tony Morrison just kept writing and Tony Morrison just kept writing and Tony Morrison just kept writing and Barbara McClend just kept doing her Barbara McClend just kept doing her Barbara McClend just kept doing her genetics and Robert Plant is still doing genetics and Robert Plant is still doing genetics and Robert Plant is still doing music, right? They found the big thing music, right? They found the big thing music, right? They found the big thing and and it's just like that's just what and and it's just like that's just what and and it's just like that's just what I'm going to do. And then there are I'm going to do. And then there are I'm going to do. And then there are others who life would hit them or they others who life would hit them or they others who life would hit them or they would make a change and they kind of go would make a change and they kind of go would make a change and they kind of go through a fog phase and then there can through a fog phase and then there can through a fog phase and then there can be a lot of these different sort of be a lot of these different sort of be a lot of these different sort of noisy things around them. But then they noisy things around them. But then they noisy things around them. But then they click in again with a big thing. And click in again with a big thing. And click in again with a big thing. And what happened with the people in our what happened with the people in our what happened with the people in our lives is there are these times when lives is there are these times when lives is there are these times when they're doing something they're encoded they're doing something they're encoded they're doing something they're encoded for that really feeds their fire that for that really feeds their fire that for that really feeds their fire that they're willing to flip the arrow of they're willing to flip the arrow of they're willing to flip the arrow of money to do. And this is the other part money to do. And this is the other part money to do. And this is the other part we need to talk about about this. What we need to talk about about this. What we need to talk about about this. What happens is once they do that, it's a big happens is once they do that, it's a big happens is once they do that, it's a big thing, right? And they go into what I thing, right? And they go into what I thing, right? And they go into what I describe in the book as hedgehog mode. describe in the book as hedgehog mode. describe in the book as hedgehog mode. There are times in life when you're in There are times in life when you're in There are times in life when you're in hedgehog mode. This is the big thing I'm hedgehog mode. This is the big thing I'm hedgehog mode. This is the big thing I'm doing. Now I may have some other things doing. Now I may have some other things doing. Now I may have some other things around here but I'm really clear on the around here but I'm really clear on the around here but I'm really clear on the big thing and sometimes they get out of big thing and sometimes they get out of big thing and sometimes they get out of that but then they'll come back to a that but then they'll come back to a that but then they'll come back to a version of being in the big thing version of being in the big thing version of being in the big thing science building my company founding a science building my company founding a science building my company founding a nation right you know big big big right nation right you know big big big right nation right you know big big big right >> Tuesdays got to focus on founding the >> Tuesdays got to focus on founding the >> Tuesdays got to focus on founding the nation yeah nation yeah nation yeah >> exactly and so I think that once you >> exactly and so I think that once you >> exactly and so I think that once you click in with the really big thing you click in with the really big thing you click in with the really big thing you give yourself over to it and it sort of give yourself over to it and it sort of give yourself over to it and it sort of dominates it's kind of like sure you may dominates it's kind of like sure you may dominates it's kind of like sure you may tributaries in your life of water, but tributaries in your life of water, but tributaries in your life of water, but there's a big river which is the there's a big river which is the there's a big river which is the Mississippi of how you allocate Mississippi of how you allocate Mississippi of how you allocate yourself. Now, there can be a lot of yourself. Now, there can be a lot of yourself. Now, there can be a lot of pieces within it. It can have a lot of pieces within it. It can have a lot of pieces within it. It can have a lot of subpoints to it, right? It might not be subpoints to it, right? It might not be subpoints to it, right? It might not be as simple as just I solve genetics as simple as just I solve genetics as simple as just I solve genetics puzzles, but it's got a big organizing puzzles, but it's got a big organizing puzzles, but it's got a big organizing theme around it. theme around it. theme around it. >> If that's simple, man, I don't know what >> If that's simple, man, I don't know what >> If that's simple, man, I don't know what my life is, but yeah. my life is, but yeah. my life is, but yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Pickup sticks. >> Pickup sticks. >> Pickup sticks. >> But this thing about flipping the arrow >> But this thing about flipping the arrow >> But this thing about flipping the arrow of money. So now thinking about it this of money. So now thinking about it this of money. So now thinking about it this with the startup community and so forth. with the startup community and so forth. with the startup community and so forth. One of the things that is very clear One of the things that is very clear One of the things that is very clear about how people really got in frame in about how people really got in frame in about how people really got in frame in our study and I really resonate with our study and I really resonate with our study and I really resonate with this as I reflect on my own life too but this as I reflect on my own life too but this as I reflect on my own life too but question is what's the arrow of money? question is what's the arrow of money? question is what's the arrow of money? Are you doing what you do to make money Are you doing what you do to make money Are you doing what you do to make money or do you need money to do your work? Is or do you need money to do your work? Is or do you need money to do your work? Is money fuel money fuel money fuel back to the flywheel? Is it simply fuel back to the flywheel? Is it simply fuel back to the flywheel? Is it simply fuel to make the flywheel go further? Is to make the flywheel go further? Is to make the flywheel go further? Is money fuel to write your next book? Is money fuel to write your next book? Is money fuel to write your next book? Is money fuel to do the next Zeppelin money fuel to do the next Zeppelin money fuel to do the next Zeppelin album? Is money fuel to be able to do album? Is money fuel to be able to do album? Is money fuel to be able to do your science? Is money fuel to be able your science? Is money fuel to be able your science? Is money fuel to be able to be a provocative questionnaire in the to be a provocative questionnaire in the to be a provocative questionnaire in the world? Is money fuel? Money is a fuel world? Is money fuel? Money is a fuel world? Is money fuel? Money is a fuel and that's the direction of arrow this and that's the direction of arrow this and that's the direction of arrow this way. The other is the direction, the way. The other is the direction, the way. The other is the direction, the flipping of the arrow of money of flipping of the arrow of money of flipping of the arrow of money of actually the truth is if I strip it actually the truth is if I strip it actually the truth is if I strip it away, the truth is in the end, a big away, the truth is in the end, a big away, the truth is in the end, a big part of this is I'm doing this to make part of this is I'm doing this to make part of this is I'm doing this to make money. And what I found with our people money. And what I found with our people money. And what I found with our people is if they had flipped the arrow of is if they had flipped the arrow of is if they had flipped the arrow of money that the only purpose of money is money that the only purpose of money is money that the only purpose of money is to be able to do what I'm encoded for to be able to do what I'm encoded for to be able to do what I'm encoded for that feeds the fire that that's that that feeds the fire that that's that that feeds the fire that that's that that's the point of it. So I never have that's the point of it. So I never have that's the point of it. So I never have to stop. Then you have a very different to stop. Then you have a very different to stop. Then you have a very different relationship to success when it comes. relationship to success when it comes. relationship to success when it comes. if it was about the money and then you if it was about the money and then you if it was about the money and then you get the money and you were never really get the money and you were never really get the money and you were never really in frame in the first place maybe or in frame in the first place maybe or in frame in the first place maybe or maybe you were but I think that notion maybe you were but I think that notion maybe you were but I think that notion of what is the direction of the arrow of what is the direction of the arrow of what is the direction of the arrow plays a big role in what happens when plays a big role in what happens when plays a big role in what happens when you get say to the other side of having you get say to the other side of having you get say to the other side of having built something succeeded or whatever built something succeeded or whatever built something succeeded or whatever and I go back all the way to my classic and I go back all the way to my classic and I go back all the way to my classic work I think the great company builders work I think the great company builders work I think the great company builders that I studied it was never about the that I studied it was never about the that I studied it was never about the money it was what they were building and money it was what they were building and money it was what they were building and that's why they never ran out of steam that's why they never ran out of steam that's why they never ran out of steam no matter how much money they made, they no matter how much money they made, they no matter how much money they made, they never ran out of steam. And I think never ran out of steam. And I think never ran out of steam. And I think that's a really critical part of how that's a really critical part of how that's a really critical part of how this cycle gets gets managed. this cycle gets gets managed. this cycle gets gets managed. >> It's a huge piece from what I can tell. >> It's a huge piece from what I can tell. >> It's a huge piece from what I can tell. And I'll just throw a few things out And I'll just throw a few things out And I'll just throw a few things out there and then I want to also make sure there and then I want to also make sure there and then I want to also make sure I don't forget to ask you about this I don't forget to ask you about this I don't forget to ask you about this live event that I believe you're doing. live event that I believe you're doing. live event that I believe you're doing. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Not too not too far from now. >> Not too not too far from now. >> Not too not too far from now. >> Thank you for reminding me about that. >> Thank you for reminding me about that. >> Thank you for reminding me about that. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, >> absolutely. So I'll sprinkle some some >> absolutely. So I'll sprinkle some some >> absolutely. So I'll sprinkle some some thoughts. So the the first is the older thoughts. So the the first is the older thoughts. So the the first is the older I get the more I think about I get the more I think about I get the more I think about I guess finite and infinite games cars I guess finite and infinite games cars I guess finite and infinite games cars >> and just along the lines of what you >> and just along the lines of what you >> and just along the lines of what you were saying like fuel being very clear were saying like fuel being very clear were saying like fuel being very clear to distinguish between fuel for the to distinguish between fuel for the to distinguish between fuel for the journey and the journey itself and it journey and the journey itself and it journey and the journey itself and it makes me think of this quote people makes me think of this quote people makes me think of this quote people should look up I think I may have had should look up I think I may have had should look up I think I may have had him on the podcast in fact Tim O'Reilly him on the podcast in fact Tim O'Reilly him on the podcast in fact Tim O'Reilly >> fascinating figure in Silicon Valley >> fascinating figure in Silicon Valley >> fascinating figure in Silicon Valley publisher but much more than that and publisher but much more than that and publisher but much more than that and I'll paraphrase his quote which is I'll paraphrase his quote which is I'll paraphrase his quote which is imagine life as a road trip across the imagine life as a road trip across the imagine life as a road trip across the country, you need fuel for the trip, but country, you need fuel for the trip, but country, you need fuel for the trip, but it's not a tour of gas stations. it's not a tour of gas stations. it's not a tour of gas stations. And And And >> also, if you're selecting >> also, if you're selecting >> also, if you're selecting perhaps using a reframed question from perhaps using a reframed question from perhaps using a reframed question from Seth Goden, so the question people often Seth Goden, so the question people often Seth Goden, so the question people often hear is, "What would you do if you knew hear is, "What would you do if you knew hear is, "What would you do if you knew you could not fail?" It's like, okay. you could not fail?" It's like, okay. you could not fail?" It's like, okay. And I have a mug with that on it, and And I have a mug with that on it, and And I have a mug with that on it, and it's helpful to think about that. it's helpful to think about that. it's helpful to think about that. >> You're a six. You're always going to be >> You're a six. You're always going to be >> You're a six. You're always going to be worried about failing. worried about failing. worried about failing. >> Well, the way Seth puts it is he said, >> Well, the way Seth puts it is he said, >> Well, the way Seth puts it is he said, "What would you do if you knew you would "What would you do if you knew you would "What would you do if you knew you would fail, fail, fail, >> right?" Which forces you to think about >> right?" Which forces you to think about >> right?" Which forces you to think about the actual day-to-day process of the actual day-to-day process of the actual day-to-day process of traveling on whatever that journey traveling on whatever that journey traveling on whatever that journey happens to be. Those are just a few happens to be. Those are just a few happens to be. Those are just a few things that came to mind. things that came to mind. things that came to mind. >> Yeah. And also it's like the more I do >> Yeah. And also it's like the more I do >> Yeah. And also it's like the more I do certain things in my life, the more I certain things in my life, the more I certain things in my life, the more I realize, yes, there might be there might realize, yes, there might be there might realize, yes, there might be there might be it's a big might, a monetary reward. be it's a big might, a monetary reward. be it's a big might, a monetary reward. And I've maybe been rewarded in the And I've maybe been rewarded in the And I've maybe been rewarded in the past, but now I just want those past, but now I just want those past, but now I just want those additional chips if they come so I can additional chips if they come so I can additional chips if they come so I can keep putting them back into play, which may not be the most financially which may not be the most financially responsible all the time, but I'm also responsible all the time, but I'm also responsible all the time, but I'm also not anywhere. I'm much like Richard not anywhere. I'm much like Richard not anywhere. I'm much like Richard Branson or a lot of these other folks Branson or a lot of these other folks Branson or a lot of these other folks people think of as risktakers. They're people think of as risktakers. They're people think of as risktakers. They're actually really expert risk mitigators actually really expert risk mitigators actually really expert risk mitigators if you really dig into their stories. if you really dig into their stories. if you really dig into their stories. They're very rarely at risk of ever They're very rarely at risk of ever They're very rarely at risk of ever touching that death line that you were touching that death line that you were touching that death line that you were talking about. talking about. talking about. >> So let's let's if you want to hop into >> So let's let's if you want to hop into >> So let's let's if you want to hop into it since I know we're got to be coming it since I know we're got to be coming it since I know we're got to be coming up on three hours now. up on three hours now. up on three hours now. Do you want to mention this live event? Do you want to mention this live event? Do you want to mention this live event? >> There are very few times when I'm just >> There are very few times when I'm just >> There are very few times when I'm just out there in a public event that people out there in a public event that people out there in a public event that people can sign up for. but related to this on can sign up for. but related to this on can sign up for. but related to this on April 9th at the Commonwealth Club in April 9th at the Commonwealth Club in April 9th at the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco. San Francisco. San Francisco. >> Great spot. >> Great spot. >> Great spot. >> Yeah. We're going to be doing a >> Yeah. We're going to be doing a >> Yeah. We're going to be doing a conversation on the evening around the conversation on the evening around the conversation on the evening around the ideas in this book. I don't know what ideas in this book. I don't know what ideas in this book. I don't know what direction the conversation exactly will direction the conversation exactly will direction the conversation exactly will go, but I know sometimes people are go, but I know sometimes people are go, but I know sometimes people are like, "Is Jim ever, you know, going to like, "Is Jim ever, you know, going to like, "Is Jim ever, you know, going to be live at something?" And usually there be live at something?" And usually there be live at something?" And usually there are things people can't sign up for, but are things people can't sign up for, but are things people can't sign up for, but this is one they can. So, I would hope this is one they can. So, I would hope this is one they can. So, I would hope to see some friendly faces there and to see some friendly faces there and to see some friendly faces there and maybe even people are provoked a little maybe even people are provoked a little maybe even people are provoked a little bit by our conversation in some way. And bit by our conversation in some way. And bit by our conversation in some way. And I would look forward to that very much. I would look forward to that very much. I would look forward to that very much. >> So if people search Jim Collins >> So if people search Jim Collins >> So if people search Jim Collins Commonwealth Club, would they Commonwealth Club, would they Commonwealth Club, would they >> I think they should be able to. I would >> I think they should be able to. I would >> I think they should be able to. I would hope so. Yeah. Does the Commonwealth hope so. Yeah. Does the Commonwealth hope so. Yeah. Does the Commonwealth Club April 9, San Francisco? Club April 9, San Francisco? Club April 9, San Francisco? Yeah. What to make of a life Jim Yeah. What to make of a life Jim Yeah. What to make of a life Jim Collins. They can find it there. Collins. They can find it there. Collins. They can find it there. >> In our second conversation, we're going >> In our second conversation, we're going >> In our second conversation, we're going to start to land the plane shortly, but to start to land the plane shortly, but to start to land the plane shortly, but I was looking at I was looking at I was looking at a reference to the good to great a reference to the good to great a reference to the good to great acknowledgements. M acknowledgements. M acknowledgements. M >> uh this was also something that I think >> uh this was also something that I think >> uh this was also something that I think you may have brought up and I'll just you may have brought up and I'll just you may have brought up and I'll just read the line because there may be read the line because there may be read the line because there may be something that was elided here something that was elided here something that was elided here >> but success dot dot dot is that my >> but success dot dot dot is that my >> but success dot dot dot is that my spouse likes and respects me ever more spouse likes and respects me ever more spouse likes and respects me ever more as the years go by as the years go by as the years go by >> and I'm wondering if you would keep it >> and I'm wondering if you would keep it >> and I'm wondering if you would keep it to that if you would revise that add to to that if you would revise that add to to that if you would revise that add to it simplify it how do you think about it simplify it how do you think about it simplify it how do you think about success these days success these days success these days >> I think that's one of the best >> I think that's one of the best >> I think that's one of the best paragraphs I ever wrote is the final paragraphs I ever wrote is the final paragraphs I ever wrote is the final acknowledgement paragraph and good to acknowledgement paragraph and good to acknowledgement paragraph and good to great and I really would still see that great and I really would still see that great and I really would still see that as for me the ultimate definition of as for me the ultimate definition of as for me the ultimate definition of success in life. Joanne and I the success in life. Joanne and I the success in life. Joanne and I the ultimate hoolock, right? We got engaged ultimate hoolock, right? We got engaged ultimate hoolock, right? We got engaged four days after our first date. four days after our first date. four days after our first date. >> Seems to run in the family. I guess >> Seems to run in the family. I guess >> Seems to run in the family. I guess >> it does. And the Natalie moment was >> it does. And the Natalie moment was >> it does. And the Natalie moment was she's saying yes now. I should say yes. she's saying yes now. I should say yes. she's saying yes now. I should say yes. Let's get married. >> A smart man. >> A smart man. >> It was very much. But then the the thing >> It was very much. But then the the thing >> It was very much. But then the the thing is that and then 45 years is the return is that and then 45 years is the return is that and then 45 years is the return on luck, right? They were going to do 46 on luck, right? They were going to do 46 on luck, right? They were going to do 46 this year. your spouse knows you like no this year. your spouse knows you like no this year. your spouse knows you like no one. one. one. and kind of to me, and kind of to me, and kind of to me, I mean, my I mean, my I mean, my the depth of my not just my love for the depth of my not just my love for the depth of my not just my love for Joanne, but the depth of my respect for Joanne, but the depth of my respect for Joanne, but the depth of my respect for her, for her intellect, for her her, for her intellect, for her her, for her intellect, for her integrity, integrity, integrity, for her amazing ability to to speak so for her amazing ability to to speak so for her amazing ability to to speak so directly and sharply to me about what directly and sharply to me about what directly and sharply to me about what needs attention. our marriage works needs attention. our marriage works needs attention. our marriage works because multiple reasons it works but because multiple reasons it works but because multiple reasons it works but one of it is Joanne is incredibly good one of it is Joanne is incredibly good one of it is Joanne is incredibly good at seeing what's needs attention at seeing what's needs attention at seeing what's needs attention and I'm encoded to hear it and the and I'm encoded to hear it and the and I'm encoded to hear it and the combination is what is a great combination is what is a great combination is what is a great combination for us and she's strategic combination for us and she's strategic combination for us and she's strategic guidance mechanism I'm creative guidance mechanism I'm creative guidance mechanism I'm creative propulsion propulsion propulsion and and and I over the years somehow just began to I over the years somehow just began to I over the years somehow just began to realize that Joanne can see me for realize that Joanne can see me for realize that Joanne can see me for really who and what I am, what my real really who and what I am, what my real really who and what I am, what my real motivations are, why I'm doing things, motivations are, why I'm doing things, motivations are, why I'm doing things, my weaknesses, my flaws, my fracture my weaknesses, my flaws, my fracture my weaknesses, my flaws, my fracture points, my unlikable tendencies, points, my unlikable tendencies, points, my unlikable tendencies, whatever they might be. When I wrote whatever they might be. When I wrote whatever they might be. When I wrote that sentence, and it's as true today as that sentence, and it's as true today as that sentence, and it's as true today as ever, the measure for me is that Joanne ever, the measure for me is that Joanne ever, the measure for me is that Joanne will love me unless I did something will love me unless I did something will love me unless I did something really stupid. Joanne will love me really stupid. Joanne will love me really stupid. Joanne will love me regardless, but will she like me more as the years but will she like me more as the years go by? go by? go by? Will she respect me more as the years go Will she respect me more as the years go Will she respect me more as the years go by? by? by? And for me, that And for me, that And for me, that like the truest, most searing test is if like the truest, most searing test is if like the truest, most searing test is if Joanne likes and respects what she sees, Joanne likes and respects what she sees, Joanne likes and respects what she sees, I'm not too far off the mark. and other I'm not too far off the mark. and other I'm not too far off the mark. and other kinds of success have come and I want my kinds of success have come and I want my kinds of success have come and I want my work to be read and all those sorts of work to be read and all those sorts of work to be read and all those sorts of things. But that really is if I had all things. But that really is if I had all things. But that really is if I had all kinds of external success but I lost kinds of external success but I lost kinds of external success but I lost Joannne's respect or Joanne woke up one Joannne's respect or Joanne woke up one Joannne's respect or Joanne woke up one day and was like well I actually don't day and was like well I actually don't day and was like well I actually don't really like you anymore. really like you anymore. really like you anymore. >> That'd be a bummer of a day. >> That'd be a bummer of a day. >> That'd be a bummer of a day. >> Yeah, that would be the worst possible >> Yeah, that would be the worst possible >> Yeah, that would be the worst possible kind of failure. kind of failure. kind of failure. >> Jim, that's deeply inspiring. I find >> Jim, that's deeply inspiring. I find >> Jim, that's deeply inspiring. I find your life and your examination of your your life and your examination of your your life and your examination of your life and the lives of others deeply life and the lives of others deeply life and the lives of others deeply inspiring. People can find you at inspiring. People can find you at inspiring. People can find you at jimconins.com. The new book, I encourage jimconins.com. The new book, I encourage jimconins.com. The new book, I encourage people to check it out. I read every people to check it out. I read every people to check it out. I read every page of it. What to make of a life, page of it. What to make of a life, page of it. What to make of a life, subtitle, Cliff's Fog, Fire, and the subtitle, Cliff's Fog, Fire, and the subtitle, Cliff's Fog, Fire, and the Self-nowledge Imperative. That's the Self-nowledge Imperative. That's the Self-nowledge Imperative. That's the book that people will be able to find book that people will be able to find book that people will be able to find everywhere. Is there anything else you'd everywhere. Is there anything else you'd everywhere. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we wind to a close? like to add before we wind to a close? like to add before we wind to a close? >> I would just add that it is truly a >> I would just add that it is truly a >> I would just add that it is truly a great joy to connect with you in great joy to connect with you in great joy to connect with you in conversation. Again conversation. Again conversation. Again the range of things that we get to talk the range of things that we get to talk the range of things that we get to talk about the quality of your questions it about the quality of your questions it about the quality of your questions it is as you know I track my days minus 2 is as you know I track my days minus 2 is as you know I track my days minus 2 -1 0 + 1 + two our conversation makes -1 0 + 1 + two our conversation makes -1 0 + 1 + two our conversation makes today absolutely for me a plus two day I today absolutely for me a plus two day I today absolutely for me a plus two day I would converse with you anytime would converse with you anytime would converse with you anytime >> thanks Jim that makes my makes my day >> thanks Jim that makes my makes my day >> thanks Jim that makes my makes my day and and and always a pleasure to connect. Hopefully, always a pleasure to connect. Hopefully, always a pleasure to connect. Hopefully, we'll have a chance to break bread in we'll have a chance to break bread in we'll have a chance to break bread in person in the not too distant future. person in the not too distant future. person in the not too distant future. That would be nice. That would be nice. That would be nice. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Or like get into the mountains. >> Or like get into the mountains. >> Or like get into the mountains. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And for everybody listening, we will >> And for everybody listening, we will >> And for everybody listening, we will link to everything, including the new link to everything, including the new link to everything, including the new book, What to Make of a Life, and the book, What to Make of a Life, and the book, What to Make of a Life, and the Commonwealth Club and so on. In the show Commonwealth Club and so on. In the show Commonwealth Club and so on. In the show notes, tim.blog/mpodcast. notes, tim.blog/mpodcast. notes, tim.blog/mpodcast. Just search Jim Collins and go to the Just search Jim Collins and go to the Just search Jim Collins and go to the most recent episode. And until next most recent episode. And until next most recent episode. And until next time, be just a bit kinder than is time, be just a bit kinder than is time, be just a bit kinder than is necessary, not only to others, but also necessary, not only to others, but also necessary, not only to others, but also to yourself. to yourself. to yourself. >> Oh, I love that. >> Oh, I love that. >> Oh, I love that. >> Thank you, Jim. >> Thank you, Jim. >> Thank you, Jim. >> You're welcome. >> You're welcome. >> You're welcome. >> And thanks to everybody for tuning in. >> And thanks to everybody for tuning in. >> And thanks to everybody for tuning in. Till next time, take care.