DR. JILL BIDEN: The Hardest Moments Nobody Saw (Addiction, Grief & Life in the White House)

Key Takeaway

Build confidence first, skills second. Dr. Jill Biden's teaching philosophy proves that giving students confidence to believe they can write transforms them more than teaching perfect grammar. On day one, she has students write 'Where I'm From' poems, celebrates their work publicly, and watches them bond through shared stories. The lesson: whether teaching, parenting, or leading, focus on building people's belief in themselves before perfecting their technique.

Episode Overview

Dr. Jill Biden shares her journey from a young divorcee finding independence to becoming First Lady, revealing how family tragedy, teaching philosophy, and unwavering presence shaped her approach to love, loss, and leadership. She discusses her early marriage and divorce, meeting Joe Biden, navigating his near-death aneurysm, raising grieving children, and the intentional practices that sustained their 49-year marriage through unimaginable challenges.

Full Transcript

Transcript of DR. JILL BIDEN: The Hardest Moments Nobody Saw (Addiction, Grief & Life in the White House) from On Purpose. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

I said to Joe, you know, we've given him everything, Joe. Everything. Why would he turn to drugs? His daughters kept Where's Daddy? Where's Daddy? Have you heard from Daddy? We didn't know where he was or how to find him. And one side you have the grief of Beau and then dealing with the public scrutiny especially around Hunter. I didn't believe Beau was going to die. But I think once we went through that, no matter how mean it got or cruel, it was like, buddy, you can't touch us.

Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. My guest today is Dr. Jill Biden, an educator, author, former First Lady of the United States, and someone who has dedicated her life to teaching. Today, we talk about family, resilience, and the lessons she's learned through some of the life's biggest transitions. Jill Biden, welcome to On Purpose. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's such a joy to see you again. We saw each other each other each other About a month ago, right? About a month ago at History Talks.

Absolutely. And I had the honor of interviewing you and President Biden. And I've been fortunate enough to have so many interactions with your family who've been so extremely generous and kind to me in so many ways. And so I'm really, really appreciate that. the same way about you. It's rare that you get to interview someone and then get to interview their wife. And then and then get to ask them questions about each other. So all the grandkids and everybody else. that I keep bumping into everywhere around the world.

It's pretty special. And I have to wish you a happy belated birthday. And you're obviously celebrating with your book launch. Actually, the second day of my book launch, yep. launch, yep. launch, yep. So you didn't get to really celebrate. I had I had five cakes. I mean, now now I'm on my celery diet. Five cakes? Five cakes? Five cakes? Yeah, five cakes. Everywhere I went, everybody gave me a birthday cake. It was really nice. And so if somebody makes you a birthday cake special, you have to eat it.

You just can't say, oh no, I'm watching my calories. You have to eat the cake. So five cakes. Five cakes, that's impressive. Uh I was thinking about this. You've You've lived an extraordinary life. I have. I have. I have. When we read this book, you can't help but think, how does one person experience all of this? And how does one person even have the capacity to navigate all of this? And I was thinking that if you were to look at your life looking forward from age 20, and you were to reflect on what's happened, happened, happened, what would that version of you think?

What would that version of you anticipate or be able to see? I never could have foreseen any of it. Not any of it. Because if you think of where I was at age 20, I was at the University of Delaware. I was studying English. studying English. studying English. Um Um Um I was actually married. I got married. I went to college. I met someone freshman year, fell in love, and got married. It was this great romantic vision, you know. Oh, we'll go to college together. We'll take classes together, which we did start out doing.

And the marriage went on for about mm 5 years, and uh we really grew apart. And it was the best thing because thing because thing because it set me on this new trajectory, and I met Joe when I was a senior at the University of Delaware. He called me. It's kind of a funny story. I was at home in my apartment, and it was Saturday, and I get this phone call. And um he said, "Jill, this is Joe Biden." Well, I I didn't I knew who he was, but you know, we hadn't really spent any time together.

I think I shook his hand at one event one time. And um he said, "Are you free tonight?" And I said, uh "Well, no, I have a date." And he said, "Do you think you could break the date?" And I said, uh "I don't know. I'll sit Call me back in an hour." So, I broke the date, and we went out. And so, like I said, I was a senior at the University of Delaware. Delaware. Delaware. All the guys I dated had long hair, you know, bell-bottoms, clogs, tie-dye shirts.

shirts. shirts. So, he comes to the door and uh I opened the door and I took one look at his perfect suit and his leather loafers and I thought, "Thank god, this is only one date." Cuz he was just so different from anyone I had gone out with. He was 10 years older. I knew he had two children that um um um because he lost his first wife and daughter in a car accident. So, we went out on the date to Philadelphia. We went out to to the movies and for dinner afterwards.

afterwards. afterwards. I really uh had no intention of going out with him again. I was just curious. But, we came home and I remember I lived in this townhouse and we went to the door and you know, it was this time where um it was like this revolution where men were kind of more forward. They felt like you owed them something at the end of the date. And he stuck out his hand and he said um "I'd like to see you again." No kiss, no groping, nothing.

And I remember it was 1:00 in the morning. I went upstairs in my townhouse. I called my mother at 1:00 in the morning and I said, "Mom, I finally met a gentleman." Wow. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I dated him the next night actually. Uh he called, you know, "Can we go out again?" And he's trying to maintain this cool. I remember he um he came over and uh he had a a book in his pocket, his calendar. calendar. calendar. And he said, "You know, I'd really like to go out with you again." And I said, "Fine." And uh he So, he's looking through the pages and he's like, "Well, no, not next Thursday.

Well, no, I'm busy. Well, not Wednesday, no." And he goes, "Well, how about tomorrow night?" And I thought, "Buddy, you just blew your cool." And and so we went out, I swear, almost every night for um um um probably 2 years. Wow. Wow. Wow. And the beautiful thing was about our relationship, I think, is that because he had the Beau and Hunter, our two boys, boys, boys, um you know, the first maybe night or two we went out to dinner together, but then it was always me and Joe and Beau and Hunter.

I mean, that's what it was. It was like so natural. I'd go to his house and um have dinner there, we'd go out to the movies, we went to the beach. I mean, we'd go everywhere together. And it was just so natural. I think people probably find that hard to believe, but it was just easy. After dating uh 2 years, the boys were in Joe was shaving on his way to work to the Senate. And apparently, this is a story that Joe tells. The boys came in and they said, "Daddy, we have something we want to ask you." And um Joe [snorts] said, "What?" And Beau said, "You tell him, Hunter." And Hunter said, "No, you tell him, Beau." Anyway, they finally came down to it and they said, "We think we should marry Jill." And so that's when Joe started, you know, asking me to marry him.

Wow. Wow. Wow. But um it did take five times um um um because because because rejected him five times, right? rejected him five times. Talk to us about how those five rejections went. Did he get down on his knee every time? didn't. He just kept saying, "I I want to marry you. I want to marry you." And I kept saying, "No, not yet. Not yet. I'm not ready." What was that hesitation? I'm telling you, Jay. I mean, I loved the boys so much. And uh And uh And uh I knew that they had lost their mother, of course, and uh I had to be be be 100% 100% 100% sure sure sure that this marriage was going to work because they had already lost one mother through a car accident through death and they couldn't lose another one through divorce.

So, I thought this marriage has to last till death do us part. part. part. And And And here we are like 49 years later. So, I think that it has. What was it that finally convinced you on that fifth time? Well, he gave me an ultimatum. So, he went to Africa and he came back on a trip for the Senate and he came back and I was in my apartment and um he knocked on the door and I said, "Joe, come on in. Come on." He said, "No, I'm not coming in.

I want to know right now what is your answer." answer." answer." And uh I I thought "Okay." And I said, "Okay, I'll marry you." Did you have fears at that time after your divorce? your divorce? your divorce? yes. yes. yes. What what was that like at that time getting married so early, being at college? college? college? My parents had such a beautiful marriage, a wonderful marriage and I was talking uh to my sisters about it yesterday. I said, "You know, we we live such an idyllic life growing up.

It really was this Ozzie and Harriet or Leave It to Beaver kind of existence." So, when I went to college and I met this guy and I totally trusted him and uh I thought, "Oh, now I'm going to have like my parents have." And so, that's why I got married so young. My parents had gotten married young. They had eloped to get married like one of their parents never knew that they had eloped. So, that's what I based it, you know, all the reason that I would get married so young.

But, I was still a college student. I didn't have any money. I was on my own. I wasn't financially independent. And I think that was the the thing that made me want to be independent my whole life. And what I say to my daughter and my granddaughters, you have to have financial independence. So, going through a divorce at that young age left such a big impact on me and it took me a long time to get over. And my mother was really the one I turned to.

I swear I I think I called her like every night for a year. I just could not get myself together. I took a semester off at college and it was like this sudden realization like, "Hey, girl, you got to make it on your own." So, I graduated, I got a job, I bought a car. Of course, my my father had to co-sign in those days. It was like 1974 and got on my way. When you read the book and even as I'm hearing you now, it feels like you were such an intentional young person.

Like, even the thoughtfulness you had around the responsibility it would take to take care of these two young boys, the gravitas of that and what that would look like moving forward and understanding the weight on both of them of losing their mother through a car accident. Like, it feels like there was so much intentionality. What was the intentionality that you and Joe put in early into your marriage to last 49 years? years? years? If there were three principles, three lessons that you said, "We learned this early.

We We put this in early and that's what helped us last the test of time." What would they be? We built the family on love. And I quit my teaching job for 2 years because I wanted to be to establish myself as their mother. That they were my sole purpose in life. I would go and I would work in the library at their school. And Jay, they were so cute. Like, they were so proud of me. They would say, "My mom's here today and she's working in the library and she they bring all their little friends in to see me and to say hello.

My kids were really involved in all kinds of sports. I mean, you know, soccer, baseball, soccer, baseball, soccer, baseball, everything. And I went to all their games. I love to cook. I believe food is love and I made sure that I made great dinners every single night and I I baked like crazy so they always brought their friends home and they were always chocolate chip cookies or cake. You know, I wanted it to be like I grew up. We would have dinner every night together. Now Joe's train got home about 7:30.

So I would have dinner with the boys and then we would wait for dessert and when Joe came in then I'd have his plate and give him his I mean I'm telling you it was Ozzie and Harriet so so so I learned so many good lessons from my own parents about love and laughter. And my parents made our lives so much fun. I can remember one dinner I don't know my mother was teasing my father and we had just gotten back from my grandparents in South Jersey and there was a big bushel of tomatoes and my mother got up and she took one of the it was right in the middle of dinner and she took one of those tomatoes and she threw it right at my father not in anger but in a like a tomato fight.

Well, we all got up the five of us and we're throwing tomatoes and we're you know, I mean I know it sounds a little bit of crazy but that's how fun my parents were. I mean they did crazy stuff like Halloween night my mom would have our homemade costumes and everything and they'd go out in the neighborhood with their martini glasses and they'd go trick or treating. I mean I have just wonderful memories and I wanted my children to think back on their childhood and be able to say I really had a really great childhood.

So, we were very intentional. This is a cute story. So, and I thought I was pregnant. So, I didn't tell Joe. The boys came home from school, and I said, I think I'm going to have a baby, but there's a way that you find out. And I said, you go to the drugstore and you get this test. And I said, let's go find out and then we'll tell daddy if I am. They were all in. So, I put the sunglasses on cuz remember I was a Senate spouse and people in Delaware would recognize me.

So, we go to the drugstore and we get the test, and then you have to go in the morning. We waited, and then we found out that I was pregnant, and they were the ones to tell Joe that we were having a baby. And I wanted them not to feel threatened by that. So, I said to them, you can name the baby anything you want. So, they picked a boy's name and they picked a girl's name. And um they they named the baby. baby. baby. Oh, wow.

Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Yeah, and they came with us to the hospital when I was in labor. We drove to the hospital, and of course I was like trying like I didn't want them to have this memory of, you know, what labor pains are like. So, I'm trying to be really stoic during it all. And then I had a C-section, so a friend of ours came and took them to McDonald's while they performed the C-section. Yeah. My parents had a neat trick for that I remember that you're you're reminding me of now is when I'm the oldest, I have a younger sister, when she was coming my my parents used to tell me to pray for a little friend.

And so, that's all I would do. I'd like pray for this little friend to appear. And then when my sister was born, I was like, oh my god, it worked. Like my prayers worked, and I was so excited. so excited. so excited. were you? were you? were you? I was like four and a half. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And it was so exciting like to to have that experience. And it's so amazing how parents find really smart ways of preparing their kids for a sibling coming into the world and what that looks like.

When I hear these stories, they're just so full of like richness and joy and abundance and love as you're saying. saying. saying. And And And of course of course of course life's challenging. It's hard. It's difficult. It's you know, it's and so you're trying to bring in all these beautiful moments, make all these beautiful memories. What was it like when Joe first said to you that he wanted to run for president? The first time he ran it was 1987. So, we were out on the campaign trail.

I remember in Iowa. I was there all the time. And it was exhausting because I was traveling a lot and then I would come home come home come home and I would have Ashley was six I think. The boys were a little older and um they all wanted my attention, you know, so I'd come home just so tired. But that campaign didn't work out. Joe was they said that it plagiarized a passage from this funny coming back Kinnick was the guy's name. And so Joe dropped out of the race, but that saved his life because in February of um of um of um 1988 1988 1988 I remember I was teaching and I got a knock on my door.

It was the principal and he said Joe, you got a call from home. You have to go home right away. So, I rushed home. I saw Joe on the bed. I mean his face was gray. was gray. was gray. [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] So, we rushed him to the hospital and they said uh we think he has he has an aneurysm. I can remember I ran home cuz I had actually getting off the bus. Nobody was there. I ran home got her settled, called the babysitter, you know, tried to get a hold of the boys.

I went back to the hospital. I'm walking down the hallway and there's a nurse sitting there with a table in front of her looking at the charts. charts. charts. And I said, "What are you doing?" And she said, "Don't go in there." I said, "Why not?" "Why not?" "Why not?" She said, "The priest is in there and he's giving last rites." I opened that door, I ran in and I said to the priest, "Get out. Get out. My husband is not dying. Get out." And the priest just looked at me, gathered his stuff and walked out.

There was no way God was going to take Joe away from those children when they had lost their mother. What gave you that conviction and faith in that moment to be able to do that? I mean, that would be be be I couldn't I couldn't bear. I could not bear that Joe would die. I I couldn't bear it and leave the children after they had lost their mother. I mean, that would be so horrible. Anyway, we went to Walter Reed. He was there for like, I think, 7 months.

Um I was teaching. I was commuting after school, like almost 2 hours. Sometimes friends would drive me down. [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] I had, you know, babysitters come in with the kids. Beau was at University of Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania. Um it was one of the toughest times of our lives, but he lived. You know, I went to that hospital. I went to Walter Reed. Reed. Reed. I can remember the surgeon, Dr. George, coming in and and I had the boys with me. Dr. George said, "He may not make it." And so, Joe said to the boys, "If I don't make make it through this, I want you to take care of your mother." And uh And uh but he did.

He lived He lived through it and it was it was a long, hard recovery. And he went on to run for president again. There were a couple more times he wanted to run. I can remember, I think it was '72, when a bunch of um political supporters came in and said I could hear them. I was down at the pool. I you know, I was young. I had on a bikini cuz I was young and I could hear them upstairs. You know, you have to run.

You have to run. And I thought no way, not now. I don't know what made me do this, but I took a black magic marker and I wrote no on my stomach and I walked in through the library and they got the message and Gosh, your your conviction in these really important moments surprises me on both ends. It does? It does? It does? Yeah, that's I mean it's brilliant. It's brilliant and then it's like it's so it's so bold and it's so like you're so sure.

sure. sure. I guess that's true. I don't know. You have to be. You can't be wishy-washy. Where does that come from for you? Where does that strength, that conviction, that clarity come from for you? My mother was really strong. She's definitely my role model. I turned to her in so many times in life and and and the sound of my mother's voice could calm me down in an instant. And one of my biggest regrets in life is that I don't have a recording of her voice.

And so I tell people who are with parents or losing parents, record their voices because because because someday you're going to need that to hear it. Luckily for me, I have a recording of Bo's voice because he gave so many speeches. He was attorney general. general. general. And so sometimes when the challenges are really tough, really tough, really tough, I go to the computer and I listen to his voice and it just sort of calms me down. If you had a recording of your mom's voice, what would you hope that she would say?

would say? would say? Just her hello Jill. That instantly, I can't even tell you. It was it's like such a trigger. That's a really beautiful piece of advice and you're so right in this world now where we're inundated and overexposed to FaceTimes and Zooms and calls with our family, we don't necessarily have recordings as much anymore. Maybe we have videos, but Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. an audio recording of a conversation, that's a a really beautiful takeaway that I'm going to do that. I'm going to talk to her.

love that. love that. love that. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to do that. I'm going to talk to my mom and make sure that I record a piece. I think that'd be really really really nice. nice. nice. want to hear that, right? Yeah, absolutely. You put on the bikini, you write down black no on your stomach, walk through, everyone listens. Oh, they saw that, yeah. I didn't have to say a word. As a matter of fact, I didn't say a word. Just walked through and walked out.

When When When Joe finally runs and wins, like that time what was different? What allowed you to say, "Yeah, this time go for it. This time it's okay." I guess because um Joe had been vice president and I saw what the life was like. Um I knew it would be challenging. I don't believe in war. Um I felt that Joe would end the forever wars and you know, he and Barack did it with um Iraq, but I don't know. There were so many people telling him, "You have to run.

You have to run." And of course his age was a question. Should he, shouldn't he? But then um he had to make that decision himself. I didn't push him one way or the other. And I write in my book how we were at George the elder George Bush's funeral and um and um and um we went to lunch afterwards at Black Salt restaurant in Washington and I just said, "Are you going to run for president? What's your decision? I need to know." And he said, "Yes, I decided to run." That's how I found out.

That time you didn't have a clear a or no in you. It was No, it had to be him. One of the beauties I think of our marriage and maybe you saw this in Philadelphia. I mean I mean I mean I support Joe and what he wants to do. And all my life he has supported me. He supported my career, my teaching, my volunteer work, anything that I wanted to do he was supportive of. Whether he liked me doing it or not. And I felt the same way about his career.

That that's really what a true partnership is in a marriage. We respected one another's choices. choices. choices. What do you think people underestimate about being First Lady? I feel like everyone has a sense of the pressure that it takes to be president. president. president. All First Ladies have chosen to do the job a different way, I think. Like Laura Bush didn't do it the same way her mother-in-law did. Michelle Obama didn't do it the same way that maybe Hillary Clinton did. We've all done it in different ways and um I respect that.

Even if they've decided not to do anything or whether they've decide to like Rosalynn Carter, you know, she would sit in on cabinet meetings. She was very involved in Jimmy's career or President Carter and um I respect that. I respect other women's choices. It's a hard job but it's I mean it's it is an honor of of a lifetime I think for most of us. What was your most difficult day in the White House? White House? White House? I mean trying to uh live through COVID, Afghanistan withdrawal, definitely one of the hardest days.

There were a lot of times, you know, if you remember like how about the Uvalde shootings. shootings. shootings. I mean that was terrible. All those children and going to visit the school and being a teacher myself. You know, when we went out to Hawaii to the fires and saw that. you know, there were so many joyous days, too. How do you begin to process all of that? Like to have the capacity to hold all of that because there's personal loss, there's Beau, there's personal loss in wider family, family parents, and then you have this global loss and global pain that you're also connected to and managing and visiting and as you said as a teacher going to schools and what what do you do?

What do you turn to in those moments? moments? moments? I can compartmentalize. So, if I'm in the classroom, my I am totally 100% in the classroom at that point. Or if I'm doing something at the White House, whatever that is, I'm totally there. I'm with my kids, I they get my total attention. So, I think that's really helpful that if I can keep doing that, it's not always easy every day. Sometimes it bleeds into the [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] you know, whatever you're doing because you have something in the back of your mind that you're trying to deal with.

I think that skill has helped me most of all. all. all. Presence, Presence, Presence, actually being there. Yeah, being present. Big [snorts] news, June is just launched at Kroger and we're celebrating with a free can for you because most of us hit that point in the afternoon when our energy dips and the focus starts to fade. Well, that's exactly why we created June, a sparkling drink crafted with natural ingredients to lift your mood, sharpen your focus, and give you smooth energy or without the crash. Now available at Kroger stores including Ralphs, Fred Meyer, King Soopers, Smiths, and Frys where you can grab a free June on us.

So, head to drinkjune.com /kroger to claim your free can in store so you can feel better and live better. I think most people feel this way. If you looked at your schedule for the next week or month or year, you'd be so overwhelmed by it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, saying to someone I can only live in 24-hour cycles because then I can deal with what's today, I can deal with what's happening right now, I can make decisions for the future that are better, that feel right today, and then I can deal with tomorrow.

But if you ask me what's happening in 3 months No, I agree with that. Right? It gets really overwhelming to start living in these long-term cycles of like, "Oh, what do you got going in 6 months?" It's like, "I don't know. I don't want to know." I don't want to know. Just let me get through Just let me get through today. today. today. yeah, and that presence to hear that that's what you needed into compartmentalize into just be present as a teacher, to just be present as a mother, to just be present as a as a first lady.

What what did it feel like when President Biden finally won? Like, what did that moment feel what did that moment feel like? like? like? god, it was so exciting. And if you remember, there was like a week before we were declared the winner. Every day the TVs were on. Steve Kornacki was up there with all his statistics, and I thought, you know, does that man never sleep? And he was getting on my nerves so badly. And so one morning, uh Joe and I just like were like, "Oh my god, we got to get out of the house." So we live on a man-made lake and it has a dock.

So we went down to the dock. We had our coffee cups. And we had just really sat down for a couple minutes, and then like all of a sudden our grandkids came running out of the house screaming, "We won! We won!" And um then we quick came back into the house, and uh I mean, it was just amazing. It was just so amazing and exciting and uh Yeah, it was it was surreal. Did it feel like a long time coming having had all those runs before and having people say, "Yeah." It did.

And I didn't expect Joe to become, you know, after VP, I thought we were finished. were finished. were finished. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So we had those years in between, I think 4 years. I was commuting to Nova, my college where I worked, from Delaware cuz I loved Nova so much. And you know becoming involved in other things so to think about getting back into this lifestyle and what it would mean and um it was challenging it but it was good. I have really good memories of that.

What's the greatest thing you've learned by being a teacher? I think the greatest gift that I can give my students is confidence. They don't need to know how to write the paragraph or the topic sentence or whatever it is. If I can give them the confidence to think that they can write it. That makes all the difference and the first day of school I say to my students or I would this was the first day assignment. I said we're going to write a poem today and they're like oh my god what do you mean we're not writing a poem and I said yes you are we're writing a poem today and you're going to like it.

So it's called where I'm from. We would read um George Ella Lyons poem and then and they liked that and then I would start using my own examples where I'm from. So my grandparents on my father's side were Italian Italian Italian and I would talk about the you know the sauce bubbling on the stove and the noodles drying in the kitchen and and food is such a good place to start. So they would start to think about it and I'd read poems from other classes that students wrote and then they would kind of get excited and so the next class they would come in and they would write their own poems and then they were a little bit shy but then I'd say okay who wants to read a poem?

Well maybe I'd have to call on the first person but then when once you break the ice they were great. So then they'd start to read and they'd say I'm from Peru too listen to my poem. My grandma made that too. The class would instantly bond they would form community and you know they were community college students so that meant they were any age from like 18 to 83 was my oldest student I ever had. But they said, "Dr. B, can we put our poems on the wall?" And I said, "Yeah, that's a great idea." I loved that they were so proud of themselves that they could write a poem.

Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And even the kids who had never written a poem before, they felt such pride. So if you can give them confidence, I think that's the most important thing a teacher can do. Couldn't agree with you more. You're making me think of so many of my teachers who teachers who teachers who You have a favorite teacher? Yeah, definitely. Who doesn't? I feel like you remember them. I have two, one from primary school, elementary school, and one from high school. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so my one from primary school was called Mr.

Foxwell, who just had that energy. He He made every class fun. He gave you so much confidence. You walked in feeling like a million bucks. And then I had a high school teacher named Mr. Buckridge, who made me question I was older then, so he had the ability to challenge me a bit more. But he would always He was my art teacher, and I loved art. It was one of my favorite subjects. All the kids love art. English, not so much. so much. so much. English was one of my favorite subjects, too, but too, but too, but great.

great. great. But But art was art was right up there, and I remember I'd make this thing look beautiful. I couldn't paint or draw, but I did a lot of collage. I did a lot of graphic art. graphic art. graphic art. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'd make everything look perfect, and then he'd look at it, and he'd say to me, "Why did you do that?" And I wouldn't have an answer. It was just because it looked good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't want to say that to him because I knew he wanted a deeper answer, but I didn't have a deeper answer.

So I'd say I did it because it looked good, and he said, "Well, figure out why you did it. Better than aesthetics." And it was such a great Made you think, right? Made you think. He would always ask me why. Why is that color next to that color? Why is that image next to that image? Why did you put that word there? And it was such a beautiful practice in intentionality, going back to that point. point. point. it led you, right? I I it's right what you're doing now, questioning.

You know, why you put one color next to the other. Yeah, for sure. It was just a simple question that just planted that seed of nothing should be just random and just for aesthetic reasons or just because it looks or sounds good. Things have to have depth and they have to have a quality. quality. quality. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I owe those teachers so much. I wouldn't be nearly where I am in life or mentally at those times if I didn't have them and sounds like your students Do you still keep in touch with any students?

students? students? Oh my gosh, yes. I keep in touch with a lot of my students. what are the kinds of things that you hear from them and what are the exchanges? exchanges? exchanges? they're doing well. It's amazing how many students I run into and um even last night in Philadelphia at my book talk, you know, students came and um and in my Washington one, a lot of my new Nova students came. And yeah, they text with me and they tell me what's going on and um I mentor a lot of young women and I love being able to be a part of their lives, give them advice, um hear their stories, and give them confidence.

confidence. confidence. What do you think young women right now in America need to hear most? We lost some steps um in the last two or three years and I think we we need to get back on track for the things that women have always fought for and that's, you know, equality, Roe v. Wade, equal equal equal wages. You know, I'm so interested in women's health and I joined the Milk and Women's Health Network because I found out that before 1993 before 1993 before 1993 all the research was done on males.

Even the mice were males, which is unbelievable. So unbelievable. So unbelievable. So consequently, everything that all the diagnosis we got, all the prescriptions are based on males' bodies. So, you know, I think that women really need to fight for themselves and fight for answers on osteoporosis, endometriosis, menopause, wherever we're going. I mean, heart disease, there are so many things, autoimmune diseases. You know, some disease hits women more than men. And why? What are What are the differences? So, I think that young women are trying to find their way, way, way, where they fit in.

But I think they can't be complacent. They have to keep fighting for themselves. themselves. themselves. I'm trying to remember the exact statistic and I'll get it wrong right now, but I remember that there was research done on how only 1% of investment investment investment went into women's medical research and health research health research health research to actually understand right. right. right. what was happening in women's health and that that that boggles my mind. And when I heard that, I mean, I told Joe about it and he said, "We're going to change it." And that's why we had the White House initiative on women's health and put $1 billion in in 1 year.

And I'm so proud of that because I felt that that was the catalyst. People had been working on women's health for years, but I think that spurred this movement forward to forward to forward to um um um investors to get, you know, venture capitalists to invest and people scientists to to do research. And it just just just It feels good. It feels good for women's health right now. Yeah, heading in the right direction. Lots lots more to do, but at least at least on the right path.

[clears throat] I think we have clarity and there's our eyes are pointing in the right direction. Now, we have to get off the starting blocks. that. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, I think we've been talking a lot about it. Our audience is primarily women. And we've been talking about everything that you just mentioned, women's health topics, consistently on the show because we think people aren't getting access to this information in many places. many places. many places. more preventive care. Yes. Yes. Yes. I was reading recently how young women now are getting back into tanning beds and I'm like, "What are they thinking?" I mean, they're so bad for you.

And I know myself since I I mean, I sat out in the sun. We all did back back then. They need to learn about prevention and how to take care of themselves and use sunscreen and not to smoke and we have to eat healthy, not processed foods. I mean, there's so many parts of prevention. And I've had skin cancer myself. I had it in the White House actually House actually House actually removed from my eye eyelid and my chest and and and And I know to how traumatic it was for me.

So, me. So, me. So, for the young women to have the chance to really take control of their own health and move forward in a really positive healthy way is so important and um um um So, that's that's kind of what I'm out there pushing. there pushing. there pushing. I feel like this book is so raw and vulnerable. It's so real. When you're reading it, like it's it's it's like a look into your heart. It really invites you in and it really lets you into these really difficult moments.

And the one that stood out to me me me was reading about your experience in the 2024 debate. And you talk about this raw fear that you experienced. What was going through your mind as you're watching the debate in 2024? I was in the green room and just watching the TV like everybody else. And when I saw that moment when Joe kind of froze, I thought, "Oh my god." And I write this in my book. It was like, "Is he having a stroke?" stroke?" stroke?" And I was scared to death.

I was sitting I got up. I started pacing. Like, "What's happening? What's happening?" So, then after the debate, I went out on the stage right away because I wanted to see him, see him, see him, you know, face to face. And he said, um as we're walking off, and I I won't repeat the exact words, but he said, "I really effed up, didn't I?" And I said, "Yeah, Joe, you did." And then we went got off the stage. I went to the green room to get my stuff.

We had a group of doctors always traveled with Joe. And he went with his staff and the doctors and the doctor said to me, "He's okay. He's okay." cuz we had three more events to do that night. So, we went to the hotel ballroom with supporters. We went to a Waffle House. Do you know what that is? that is? that is? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I'm from the Northeast, so like Waffle House, what are you talking about? So, anyway, we go to the Waffle House at whatever time it was, 11:00.

And then we went to North Carolina, 3:00 in the morning we get off the plane, there's a band, there's big lights, there's hundreds of supporters, you know, they're chanting and I thought, "Well, thought, "Well, thought, "Well, okay, you know, we're going to keep going." And we did until we didn't. What was it then? What did you Had you seen him that way before? Had you had that that that Never. Never. Never. When When When President Biden finally stepped down and you said you wrote in your book he said, "Jill, I had no choice." Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. What was your reaction then from that debate to that moment? I was really um heartbroken for Joe. Because he had been a public servant for over 50 years. And for his career to end on such a negative note, I was heartbroken for him. When he got out, I mean, people were saying he was a hero for stepping down, for giving up everything and sort of passing the torch. But I felt I felt really sad for him. him. him. You know, when you love somebody and they go through something like that, it's you feel their pain.

I mean, you just just just you know, you can't help but be heartbroken. heartbroken. heartbroken. Did he wish he'd done it earlier or did it Did he feel that was the right time? I don't know that he wished he had done it earlier. It just sort of unfolded. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. You know, he lost the support of the Democratic Party, and he knew he couldn't go on. So, he did the right thing. He stepped out. I can't imagine how hard it is to to dedicate your life to your country and your people, and then then then yeah, that be the way to go out.

You know, we we see it in in places where there are no stakes, like when a when a coach of a sports team leaves and they they were losing, and they didn't win the championship. And it's like, okay, whatever. Like that that's people make that out to be really really sad and difficult. and difficult. and difficult. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And and so, to compare it to these stakes and and this scale and this responsibility and dedication feels like such a hard thing to do, and I can imagine he really needed you then because because because Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. like you said, you were you were sad for him, but I can't imagine how sad he was for himself and what he'd done. And so, he probably relied on you a lot. You know, after after 49 years of marriage, yeah, he does. does. does. We rely on each other. And I believe in the book you were talking about how you were slightly upset about Kamala Harris looking for an endorsement and support almost immediately. Well, I was just upset. I was just plain upset. It just became sort of overwhelming.

overwhelming. overwhelming. You know, but I got right out there for Kamala, and I was on the campaign trail a lot. a lot. a lot. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And I saw the excitement and um the excitement at the convention and on the trail when I was out there working for her, campaigning for her. And I honestly believed she was going to win. win. win. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And I was actually shocked. Um I write in my book, it was like the next morning I was, you know, went into the kitchen at the White House.

I was making coffee, feeding Willow, feeding Willow, [snorts] and my phone rang, and I just I thought she had won. And someone called me and said, "Had Did you see the news?" And at that they didn't even have to tell me the news. I knew. And I ran into the bedroom and I said, "Joe, wake up." You know, it was like 5:00 in the morning. "Wake up. Why didn't you tell me?" He said, "Yeah, she lost." Did you feel she was going to win? I'll give you my honest answer.

I spend a lot of time on TikTok. And for anyone who spends a lot of time on TikTok, it was pretty clear she wouldn't win. win. win. Oh, really? Oh, really? Oh, really? That was my take. Yeah. So, that's where I should go the next time. time. time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking at a candidate and what the hell they're doing. Literally, I lived on TikTok. Yeah, I was I was living the campaign through on TikTok. And it's more of a a sense you got from seeing the the level of support that the opposition had and had and had and But her crowds were so big and the energy.

I mean, you saw them after the convention. convention. convention. the people who are going to go and vote. It's almost like the people online who vote and the scale at which the support was there for for President Trump was pretty crazy. It was like it was insane to look at actually in the build-up even. even. even. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and I was like, "Wow, this is this is big." Like you just see posts that just had just had just had an insane amount of likes and comments and engagement that was all pro Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. pro-Trump and pro-Trump and pro-Trump and Yeah, I wasn't, you know, monitoring that. I was monitoring the crowds and and their response and and I guess that was my barometer. Yeah, of course. Of course. No, and and and and that's what's so interesting is that I think politics has been completely transformed by social media Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. of all of these apps and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. how followings are galvanized, how how messaging is coming across. I mean, with most of you know, millennial and Gen Z generations getting their news through social media, social media, social media, Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. it's you know, it's starting to become such a such a such a pivotal place and such a scary place for all of this as well. to say, like how are these young people supposed to supposed to supposed to tell what's true and not true? Like that's what worries me. You can't. Especially now, I mean, you add AI into the mix and social media, you have no idea what's real. And it's really hard because there's no controls on what's real and what's not real. It's not marked, you don't know.

So, do you think there should be government regulation? government regulation? government regulation? I think there needs to be for news, for sure. sure. sure. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. But I don't know how you control that because everyone's a news corp at this point. And so, how do you actually even control something like that when anyone anywhere in the world can upload something and it looks real and it looks like it makes sense. It's I can't imagine it to be easy. And you don't want to censor free speech.

So, it's I I Yeah, it's a it's a very, very fine balance. I don't know how you do it. Yeah. Well, I looked up something on the January 6th insurrection. It was all positive and I was like, "What?" You know, and I Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I said, "Can you give me the you know, the truth about this?" Because they painted such a rosy picture of what happened. And we saw what happened. I mean, we watched it on the TV. We saw them smashing the windows of the Capitol.

But they put such a positive spin. I really thought, "Where were they getting drawing the information or who was controlling was controlling was controlling Was that an AI search or a Google search? search? search? on It was on ChatGPT. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. So, look it up and see what take a look. Yeah, I'm going to do that as soon as we finish this. I as soon as we finish this. I was going to say, obviously I got the I had the fortune of interviewing yourself and President Biden just just a month ago at History Talks.

And the president was in such good spirits. I mean, he was I we we spent time backstage. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was He was He was Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. as always. We had a great conversation together. We went on stage. He's also well, how is he? How is he doing? He's doing okay. Um he does have stage four cancer. It has metastasized to his bones. He will forever have cancer. He will forever be on medicine. And he's 83. So, you put that mix in. So, yes, he's still working.

He's writing his book. Um book. Um book. Um he's traveling, he's speaking. but um he's a little more tired. Uh Uh Uh I've seen him slow down. I mean, cancer really takes a toll. And I think um every family in America has someone in their family with cancer, whatever form it takes. And um and I think it's it's really been like like like kind of a cruel blow. It's the worst. If It's the worst. If anyone's lost anyone that they love through cancer, which I have, it's it's the worst.

It's It's terrible to watch. And as you said, it's it's long-term. It's not going anywhere. Yeah, I was I was shocked at how amazingly present he was knowing knowing those those those truths. truths. truths. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was strong. He was yeah. He's strong, he's resilient, and it's just just just uh so unfortunate. I'm so sorry you and your family are going through that. It's uh yeah, I can't I can't imagine on top of everything else how how painful that is. Everybody's trying to do their part in helping, and you know, like my Naomi is our oldest grandchild said, "Nana, I want to come and, you know, bring my son, Willie, and uh stay with you for a month, and month, and month, and uh you know, help you out." And I mean, just it's just been a really nice thing.

I wanted to go back to the opening line of the book where you say, "Once you lose a child, nothing can hurt you." And I thought, "Wow, that's that's a really emphatic way to begin a book." Why was Why was it important to start there? there? there? After we lost Beau, I felt there could be nothing worse in life than to lose a child. I didn't believe Beau was going to die. I just kept praying and praying and praying, and I just felt like God would never take him.

With glioblastoma, which is what Beau had, we tried everything. I mean, every every trial, every medicine, operations, and the doctors kept saying, "This could turn around any moment. This could turn around. This could turn around." around." around." [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] And I remember how sick he was getting and all the things he was going through, and it was so horrible to watch, and I can remember the day he died. That morning, the doctors called us into the room in Walter Reed, [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] and they said, uh, "Things are getting pretty bad, pretty bad, pretty bad, but but but this could turn around." I breathed a sigh of relief, like, "Okay, he could live.

He really could live." live." live." And we walked out. There were about eight docs, and um, we took a couple steps outside the room, and one of the doctors turned around and said, "Stop." said, "Stop." said, "Stop." And looked at the doctors and said, and said, and said, "Tell the Bidens the truth. Go back in that room that room that room and tell the Bidens the truth." And um, And um, And um, we went back in, and they said, um, "We think Bo's going to die today." Honestly, I I don't think there's anything worse.

After going through that, that, that, my family's like really spiraled. I mean, it was just so hard on everybody. And so, I think once we went through that, like, anything anybody said against Bo or did or no matter how mean it got or cruel, it was like, "Buddy, you can't touch us. I mean, we're just we're resilient. we're resilient. we're resilient. There can't be anything worse than losing Bo." And I still feel that way. I've heard the president say that. You never met Bo, right? did.

No, no, no, but I thought you may have. No, I wish I did. The way No, I wish I did. The way The way you both speak Yeah, the way you both speak about him. I've had President Biden say that you know, he should have been president and that's why he's doing what he's doing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. kind of what we thought, you know, that Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. it wasn't going to be Joe, it was going to be Beau. Beau was just I mean, he's all the best parts of Joe.

How do you even begin to live with that level of grief? One day at a time. I know it sounds so cliché, cliché, cliché, but there were days when uh you know, I just couldn't couldn't couldn't kind of I felt like I couldn't get through the day, but I'm telling you the the the amount of kindness that people showed toward us, toward us, toward us, like people didn't give up. It wasn't like they said, "I'm sorry you lost your son." It was like every day sending me a text, dropping something by the front door every day, every week, and not just like for the moment that week of the funeral.

My true friends kept it up for months and months and months, because you never get over it, ever. I mean, to this day when I wake up, I mean, the first thing I do is say a prayer for Beau. And I always say you never know what's behind someone's smile. Even during Beau's illness, I was teaching full-time at Nova, at Nova, at Nova, and and and I think maybe one teacher knew what I was going through, one of my friends, but no one else, because I would sometimes go to the hospital early in the morning, the morning, the morning, and then uh teach and then go to the hospital.

Joe was working every day as vice president. Very few people knew. And you know, people said, "Oh, you kept it secret. You kept it secret." Well, they forget. I mean, he and Hallie had two children. two children. two children. We couldn't let this out and have my my grandchildren hear this. I mean, they were already dealing with his illness. They saw him in the hospital every day. They saw him when he was home. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. We just couldn't have them hurt in that way. We just It was uh too much.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Too much for them as little children. I mean, on one side you have the grief of Beau and then you have, you know, dealing with the public scrutiny, especially around Hunter. And I wonder, how do you How do you navigate supporting a family member who's struggling with addiction? It was tough, Jay. Because half the time we didn't know where he was. He would be going from rehab to rehab. Then we wouldn't hear from him for like a couple weeks, and the kids His daughters kept, "Where's Daddy?

Where's Daddy? Have you heard from Daddy?" You know, we didn't know where he was or how to find him, or he wasn't communicating with us. So, I flew someone in to do an intervention with him, and it took a long time for me to even get him to come to the house. And as soon as he walked in, he saw what was going on. He ran out of the house, and Joe ran after him, and just held him, and we just had to I don't know, love him through it.

It's a disease, and I think um I had to learn that myself, cuz I said to Joe, "You know, we've given him everything, Joe. Everything. Why would he turn to drugs?" But it is a disease. disease. disease. Now, he's sober, thank you, God. Uh he's been sober for I think 7 or 8 years now. He's remarried. He has a a beautiful little boy, Beau. And he's doing his art. He's helping people with recovery. For those who are who are listening, who are going through addiction, I you know, I don't I don't I don't have the answer, but you just have to keep at it and it is one of the hardest things I think I've ever had to do.

And Joe, to see your your your child child child deal with addiction. I heard you say recently that you wish you had spoken more openly I do. I do. I do. about his addiction during your time in the White House. Why was it hard then and why is it important now? What Well, I think so many families are dealing with it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. people have to know that they're not alone. alone. alone. And there are answers and there is help and there is community support.

I mean, I saw it all the time in my classroom as well. The kids who would come in that were high all the time, every single day. And I'd say, "I want you to go talk to a counselor." "No, Dr. B, I got this under control." And I said, "No, you don't." No, you know, but just to try to get to them them them cuz they think they're invincible. They think they don't have a problem. They don't see what the world sees and it was hard.

It was really hard. I really appreciate you having those reflections and it's so interesting how as something at the time can feel really difficult to talk about and then when you look at it from a different angle and perspective, you realize actually yeah, there are so many families going through the same thing. People need to hear about other people's stories. They They do. They do. They do. to hear about how you can change your mind about something and what it really requires and yeah, I thought it was really brave that you were able to you know, reconnect and reflect and say, "Hey, I regret that we didn't talk about it more." it more." it more." Mhm.

Mhm. Mhm. And I think there's a need. I think there's a need with all of this as you said it's a disease and and there are so many other addictions, mental health conditions that conditions that conditions that Ah, yeah. Ah, yeah. Ah, yeah. that I think we're just starting to understand. understand. understand. And I love that Hunter now is helping other people in recovery. Jill, it's been really a gift to read your book, to sit with you today. I Oh, thank you. Don't take this honor granted at all.

Like it it's so meaningful to sit with someone who's lived such a real yet incredible and incredible and incredible and phenomenal and phenomenally difficult life in so many ways and joyous, of course. course. course. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. We end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one word. To one word? word? word? Well, no, no, no. I'll give you one sentence. One sentence. One sentence. These questions have to be answered in one sentence. one sentence. one sentence.

Okay. Okay. Okay. However, I will usually ignore my own rule and ask you for more. Okay. Okay. Okay. Uh but uh Dr. Jill Biden, these are your final five. final five. final five. Okay, here are my final five. Question number one. What is the best advice you ever had or received? My best advice was probably from my mother, know thyself. thyself. thyself. Question number two. What is the worst advice you've ever heard or received? Uh the worst advice? God, I don't know. Um can I pass on that one?

The worst advice? I don't know. What's something that gives you hope for the future? the future? the future? You know, I love in the women's health space, all these young researchers that I'm meeting and seeing what they're doing because I'm the other half of the brain, you know, language arts and um literature, but they're science. And to sort of step into their world and see what they're able to do and discover and how they can help other people and how they're trying to cure these rare diseases.

That really gives me hope because I feel like we're moving in the right direction in women's health. And I love the direction of of women's sports. I mean, we've waited, you know, I'm a girl from the '60s. So, we've waited so long with, you know, Title IX and um to see women's sports getting their due. Uh that gives me hope. And the midterms, I feel like um you know, I feel like the Democrats are going to going to going to maybe turn the corner and do well in them.

There's so much that gives me hope. And it's so great that uh I don't know. My grandchildren are all in their 20s and uh early 30s and um to see their interests and what they're interested I mean, I just see what young people people people are interested in these days. And and they seem to be moving forward in a really positive way and not focusing on the negativity or the vitriol. Like they're rejecting that and they're saying, "We're going to take this in a different direction and look at our passions and find joy." And that's what gives me hope.

Question number four, what's something you used to value when you were younger, but you don't value anymore? anymore? anymore? I don't know. I look for the positive anymore. I look for the joy. You know, I'm like you said, I just had a birthday. I'm 75. As I like to tell my daughter that she hates to hear, I'm like, "Girl, I'm in my final quarter and I'm going you know, I want it to be joyous. I don't want to focus on the negative." negative." negative." Fifth and final question we ask to every guest who's ever been on the show.

If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? Be kind. Be kind. Be kind. Because you don't know what anyone's going through. going through. going through. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As you said earlier, now you don't know what's behind someone's smile. You never know. Dr. Jill Biden, thank you so much for your time, your presence, your energy. Uh if there's anything I didn't ask you that you'd want to share, we're more than happy to hear, but uh thank you for your time, your presence, your energy.

your energy. your energy. Oh, thank you. Thank you for sharing your heart so openly in this book and I look forward to many, many Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. of our audience and community reading it. it. it. As we go on, thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, you're going to love my conversation with Michelle Obama, where she opens up on how to stay with your partner when they're changing. If you're going through something right now with your partner, this is the episode for you.

The world won't always like you, but you can't count on the world to like you.