Is TRT Right for You | The Real Conversation Nobody Is Having About Hormone Therapy | Mind Pump 2969

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The first one is MPhormones.com. If you want to know if hormone replacement therapy is for you and or you have questions about peptides like GLP-1s, these are medical professionals. You can get on the phone with them and talk with them and they'll help advise you on whether or not this is right for you. Go to MPhormones.com. Use the code MP249. Here's what you'll get for that, by the way, if you sign up with them, a 45-minute medical consultation, testosterone replacement or in clomiphene or vitamin B12 for your first month for only $249. All of that for only $249. That's your first month. This episode is also brought to you by Seed. This is the world's best probiotics. Probiotics have tremendous proven benefits, especially for gut health, but also for skin health and brain health and even for muscle building and fat loss. Seed is the best one. They're the only probiotic company we work with, and that's for a reason. Go check them out. Go to Seed.com. Use the code 25MINDPUMP. Get 25% off your first month's order of their daily symbiotic. Also, get your own customized MAPS workout program. That's right. We will design for you a workout program for your body, and it's a three-month program. Go to MyMAPSprogram.com. Fill out the questionnaire. One of my trainers will call you, deliver to you an individualized workout program. It's MyMAPSprogram.com. All right. Real quick, if you love us like we love you, why not show up by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs, or training gear over at MyPumpStore.com. I'm talking right now. Hit pause. Head on over to MyPumpStore.com. That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show. All right. We're going to talk about testosterone replacement therapy. Who is it for? Who is it not for? What are the best ways to use it? We're going to get into this right now. Let's go. Am I right in this used to be so controversial? Yeah. Okay. This is a big thing now, right? Testosterone replacement therapy has now become mainstream. For a long time, it was a taboo subject because testosterone is also a performance enhancing drug. Because of this, it's a controlled substance. For a long time, getting testosterone from your doctor, if you were hypogonadal, meaning you just didn't produce a lot of testosterone, it was actually quite difficult. If your testosterone was within range, even if it was in the low, low end of range and you had all these symptoms of low testosterone, it was very difficult to get. Well, that's changed. It's actually changed quite a bit now. Now, testosterone replacement therapy is extremely accessible. In many cases, very inexpensive. The taboo around it, there's still a bit of taboo, but it's not nearly like it was, definitely not like it was 15 or 20 years ago. It's a good subject because I don't know about you, Adam, but I'm getting more questions from family members and friends around this topic than I ever did in my entire training career. Yeah, I think that's like we said. I think it's not as taboo. There's far more people, more of it. There's hormone clinics popping up everywhere, every day. I was going to ask you if you think that we're going to see a change in the education system for your general practitioner because of it. What you still do see, and I do still get this because I'll have friends of mine that are mid to late 40s, they're describing to me all the signs of low testosterone. I'll advise them, go see your doctor, go get your blood work, find out where your testosterone is, and then more than likely, get yourself on HRT. If that's the case, right? Yeah. Mid to late 40s, kids, stressful job, this day and age. Plausible. Very plausible. Most likely, not optimal for sure. Then, very high chances of it being pretty low. I still have some of them come back because I've had this with multiple friends that have suggested this, where the general practitioner will be like, oh, we're okay because they're, say, 300 or 350 and they're not in a range that is of danger of something really happening. The problem with that, and if you go see a hormone specialist, somebody who specializes in hormone therapy and a doctor that works with a hormone clinic, they'll tell you that that person, if most of their life, young life, said averaged around 900 and now they're 300 or 350, that's less than half of what they're used to and absolutely can result in these common symptoms of poor sleep, lack of motivation. Low libido, muscle loss. Low libido, yeah. Hard to build muscle, lose muscle. They lose muscle. All these potential side effects, you can absolutely see all those things, and so therefore are a great client for hormone replacement therapy. Yeah, and potentially because it's starting to actually swing in the other direction where it's going a little too far in the other direction. When you speak to experts on the subject, we have, and by the way, we have good data, decent data on the benefits slash risks of being on testosterone or being on testosterone replacement therapy. We actually have pretty good data, but it is starting to swing in the other direction where going on testosterone becomes a cure-all, which it's not, and so we need to talk about that a little bit. Also, by the way, this is all getting clouded by the fact that since the 1950s, okay, since we've measured, since we've been measuring testosterone levels in men, there has been a consistent general decline in testosterone in men. There's also been a general decline in fertility in men, so the average 30-year-old today has less testosterone than the average 65-year-old did in, let's say, 1970, for example. It might not be exact on the numbers, but it's something like that, and you can look this up. This is well-documented, and without getting into the weeds, they're not quite sure what's going on. It could be the difference between lack of activity, diet. Obesity now plays a big role, right? Obesity exploded in modern societies right around the 70s and just continued to climb up until recently. Could be exposure to new chemicals that might have hormone-like activity in the body, especially in combinations. Xenoestrogens. Yeah, we're just not sure. We just don't know what's going on. I mean, most likely, wouldn't you say it's a combination of all of that? It could be, right? We are seeing this as just general decline, and so that's kind of clouding the whole thing. But also, it's not a miracle cure-all because a lot of the symptoms you get from low testosterone are also symptoms you can get from poor diet, poor sleep, too much stress in your life, just essentially not taking care of yourself. So, hey, I got low motivation and low energy. Hey, my libido is low. I have low drive. I'm not as strong as I used to be. Could that be a result of low testosterone? Yes. Those are all classic symptoms of low testosterone. Could they also be symptoms of the fact that you are not getting good sleep, you're not exercising, you're eating like crap? Yeah, 100%. Absolutely, 100%. So, it gets a bit murky. I think what we should start is the data that shows whether or not testosterone replacement therapy improves or takes away from longevity. So, the fear used to be that if you went on testosterone, you would have an increase in cardiovascular events. Well, we now know that's not true. We look at the data on replacement therapy, and it does not increase the risk of cardiovascular events. It also doesn't decrease them. It seems to be somewhat neutral. So, it seems to be somewhat neutral. But we got to look at who's in the study. And the study is looking at hypogonadal men, men outside of the range of testosterone. And depending on the lab, it's typically the low end is around 250 or 300 in total testosterone. The upper end is between 850 to 950 or something like that. So, that's the range, which by the way, it's a whole other subject. It's a huge range. You're telling me I could be between 300 and triple, and that's considered normal. But nonetheless, the study looked at men whose range was below what is considered the range, and then who were brought up to around 600. So, they weren't even brought up to 900, or what happens many times in hormone therapy clinics is they'll let you go above 900 so long as the drop falls within range when it's time to do your next dose of testosterone. So, just a little bit of kind of medical information around how testosterone tends to be administered. There's a few ways it can be administered. One of them is a cream. It's pretty common. Another one is injection, which is also very common. When you inject testosterone, it's typically attached to what's known as a long acting ester, which releases the testosterone over time. But what happens when you do an injection of testosterone is you get a peak at about 24 hours, then it slowly drops until your next injection. So, what a lot of clinics will do is they'll allow the peak to be above range so long as the drop is well within range. Which, by the way, not to interrupt you on this because I think it's important that people that are considering going this direction know this, is there's also a range of how people respond to that. So, for example, I went through this in my early journey of hormone therapy when they were trying to figure out the right dose for me, and what they found was I actually respond really well. So, a moderate to low dose, I shoot up pretty good, but I also crash pretty fast. And so, what we were finding was, and they slowly worked my way up. So, they started me, I think it was the original 100 milligrams a week, and then it went 110, 120. They basically, 10 milligrams at a time, went up on me all the way up to 200 milligrams. Now, 200 milligrams would shoot me to 1300 levels, so above the normal range. But then, by day seven, I would come all the way back down to 400. And so, I had this really, and that was abnormal to the average person, which is why today my dosing looks like half the dose done twice a week. So, I have less of a spike. Others are different. Other people can take their. So, you don't go out of range and you don't go too low, is what it looks like. So, that's some of the techniques that they'll use when administering. Nonetheless, when we're looking at longevity, and by the way, we'll get into this, because it's also more nuanced and complex than what I'm about to say. But when we look at the literature and the data, if your testosterone is below normal and you go on replacement therapy to bring you up to an average of 600 or so, there's no risk of cardiovascular events. There's just an increase in quality of life. That's what you see. So, in this big study, in these big studies, men feel better, their libido is up, better moods, less depressed, less anxious, et cetera, et cetera. Now, I always make this argument with quality of life. If you have more energy, you're in a better mood, higher libido, more drive, you're probably more likely to do things like work out. You're probably less likely to self-medicate with food. This is what we tend to see. By the way, I don't just see this with testosterone replacement therapy. I see this with other medications when I would train clients. I've trained clients that were really depressed and when they went on antidepressant type medications, they became more consistent with their workouts because the medication got them out of the depression enough so they had enough of a motivation to come to the gym. Oh, this is helping you do the thing that is really going to help you the most, which is exercise. Right. Um, so, and so I could see why that would be the case. Same thing with GLPs people using GLPs lose weight. A lot of people in the fitness space were like, Oh, nobody's going to work out or hire a trainer. The opposite is actually turning out to be true. People on GLP, uh, medications are more likely to spend money on fitness, which means they're more likely to work out more likely to be involved in because the GLPs giving them a little bit of motivation, motivation, cause they're kind of losing weight. So it's a little bit more nuanced and cloudy than just, you know, the specifics of what we're talking about. So, uh, so that there's that, okay. Here's the testosterone replacement therapy is not for, um, and this was a conversation I had with a friend of mine earlier. So earlier today I was texting with the, with the buddy of mine. Um, and, um, you know, he's, he, he was, he was commenting on how I've been looking lately or whatever. And he's like, it's gotta be, you know, the testosterone and stuff that you're on. And I'm like, dude, getting lean is like mostly diet, like this effect. And by the way, everybody knows this. Even bodybuilders who take crazy amounts of steroids know this, that you could take all kinds of testosterone. You'll just get bigger and more bloated, but you're not going to get lean. The diet is the lean part. And that's what he was commenting on was, uh, on my leanness. And I said, you know, if you knowing him, knowing his diet, knowing his lack of activity eats like garbage, it doesn't work out, but I'm like, bro, if you went on testosterone right now, you would just gain 12 pounds of water bloat and inflammation, and it would actually make your health worse because you eat like garbage and you don't exercise. Yeah. So testosterone replacement therapy. And by the way, the best clinics, the best hormone replacement therapy experts, people who really specialize in this field, they make their patients sign a form saying I agree to exercise and watch my diet. And if I don't, you can kick me out of the program. Well, and they'll know, because I mean, they'll see it just like ours, like every three months we have these check-ins with our blood work. And so if you're, if you're eating like crap and just taking testosterone, like you're just gaining a little bit of weight. Yeah. You'll see, you'll see negative markers, right? So you'll see, you'll see an impact negatively and then they'll 100% comment and reduce or take away from you if you're doing that versus if you are on the appropriate dose and you are making lifestyle changes, i.e. diet and exercise, uh, you'll see also radical, but positive changes in the blood. Yeah. Otherwise it's like, Dr. Tina said this really well. It's like you're throwing a gasoline on a dumpster fire. If you throw hormones at someone who's unhealthy, unfit, inflamed, and just doesn't want to change any of their lifestyle, adding hormones to that. Hormones can be a great. They can be drivers of aesthetic changes, drivers of, uh, helping your body adapt better to stress. Uh, like exercise, they can help with things like fat loss. They can help with cognitive function, but they can also drive a lot of other things like, uh, you know, growth hormone, which they would call, let's say a youth hormone in a pro-cancer pro-inflammatory state can just give you higher risk of cancer, testosterone with a guy who's drinking beer and eating donuts and not working out, you just increase your risk of heart disease and cardiovascular events. Well, not to mention that that same person, since we're talking about people who this is not for that, that same person that may have gotten blood work and shown that they have lower testosterone levels would see a positive swing in testosterone levels simply by lifestyle. I mean, we've, we've had, we've had callers like this before. This is where I think another example of who this is not for is somebody who gets their blood work, their testosterone is low, but they also get four nights or four hours of sleep a night and they, and they, and they don't eat good. And it's just like, there's a lot of opportunity for us to improve that naturally, uh, first. And if you don't, the dangerous part of that is it masks those natural signals. So you have to talk about how, why that's also important. It's like, so, cause maybe that guy does go and get on testosterone without, you know, taking heed to this advice. He goes, it's like, oh, my levels are this low. Who cares? I'm getting four hours sleep. I need testosterone therapy. He gets it, feels much better. He's got a little bit more energy. Yeah. So he feels much better because now he's taking a synthetic hormone, but the problem is he's still neglecting his sleep, which is so detrimental to his health. That's right. And so a lot of times we've seen these examples of people that are doing, taking a TRT, but it's masking other issues that they could have naturally fixed. And so always the recommendation is to try and address that first. So I had this conversation, uh, with a family member of mine about, it was probably about nine, maybe, maybe a year ago we got this conversation cause he, uh, he works out, so he does Brazilian jujitsu, he's a black belt. And he trains on average two to three days a week of Brazilian jujitsu. And then he'll lift weights maybe one day a week, depending on how much jujitsu he's doing. He also has a, uh, you know, he's a very successful guy, but it's a somewhat stressful job. He's a financial advisor. And so, you know, you work in that space, there's a level of stress you're dealing with when you're managing people's, you know, uh, retirements and their fortunes or whatever. Right. He's also a father. He's got kids, the whole deal. Right. Great guys, very close to him. Uh, great integrity, great guy. And he's always very cautious when adding any kind of a medical intervention. He's, he's extremely cautious. And so we had this conversation about 10 months ago. So he went and got blood work done and his number came back. His, his total testosterone was below 400. So it wasn't out of range, which would have been under 300, but he was like, you know, like, I think it was like 390 or 400 or something like that. And he's like, ah, he's like, that's not at a range. He goes, but that's kind of low. And I'm definitely noticing he's my age. He's 47. He's like, I'm definitely noticing that I just, I can't do jujitsu. Like I used to, and I've got kind of lower energy. And he's like, like, what do you think about this? And so him and I talked about this a little bit. And so he said, let me see if I can raise it naturally. Again, he's a very conscious guy about this kind of stuff. And so we did, he did a few things, change his diet. Change a few things. And his testosterone essentially went to four, it barely changed. It went to 450. And so he's like, ah, man. All right. He's like, um, let me try in clomiphene first. So in clomiphene is a selective estrogen receptor modulator. So this is a drug that you take. It blocks the estrogen receptor and it sends a signal to the body that says you need more estrogen. I'm I'm trust me. This makes sense in the male body. Cause a man makes estrogen from testosterone. So what it does actually spikes your testosterone. And he just wanted to see how he'd feel on this. It wasn't that in clomiphene was his long-term, uh, solution, but he's like, I just want to see what it feels like to have higher testosterone. It shot his testosterone up to like 800. He's like, dude, I feel so much better. I feel so much energy. He's like, I could go to Jitsu. I feel like I'm recovering. Uh, he's like, I feel kind of more motivated. And he's like, God, he was like, I don't know though, man, should I do this? And I told him, I said, look, I said, bro. I said, you work out, you work out all the time. You're always consistent. You do Jiu Jitsu, you lift weights, you watch your diet. Cause he does, he doesn't eat garbage. No, I said, you're not going to waste, uh, going on testosterone replacement therapy. Here's what's going to happen by you going on testosterone replacement therapy. It's just going to improve your quality of life. The things you like doing, you'll be able to do more of. You're probably going to work out a little harder as a result. You're going to feel more recovered. You'll have more energy and more drive. You're the guy that I would say is it's, you know, it's probably good. It's a good thing for you. It's not that you were low that you were solo. You need to go on it, but rather, uh, it's just going to improve your quality of life is what's going to happen. And you're, and you're not a lazy dude. You work out. So he did, he went on replacement therapy and he's very conservative. He's like super conservative. In fact, I'm always telling him like, try getting more, see what happens. But he stays real conservative with it. And he's like, this is, he's like, this is great. He's like, I go to jujitsu. I feel good. My body isn't hurt all the time. I have more energy. I'm able to work out a little more. Um, he's actually more motivated with diet than he was before because he's, you know, cause of the way it feels to work out and stuff. So that's an example of somebody that I would say, uh, is for it. Um, and then I had my other buddy who's does nothing and eat garbage. Uh, and he's, he's really overweight and he's like, Hey, maybe what do you think would happen if I went on? I'm like, your health would get worse. You would gain probably 12 pounds on the scale. Uh, a lot of it being bloat. I know you, you're not going to change your diet. You're not working out unless you think it's going to be the motivation. You need to do those things. Waste your time, your testosterone is in the four fifties. You're fine. Don't do it. It's not going to improve your quality of life and it actually might decrease your longevity. So don't play for play with it. So I have a great story since you went this direction today. Um, my best friend, so who is a year older than me. Um, so he's 46 and he, I've been, I've been telling him the same stuff forever. And he's got a very stressful job. Uh, doesn't get the most sleep. Uh, his, his wife is a nurse who works double the time. He takes care of both kids. A lot of times getting them to all their soccer games, waking them up, getting ready for school. Like he's like super dad and works and does all this stuff. And I've been telling him for any, and he's been really, he hasn't lifted since we all, we live together and stuff. And I've been telling him like, and he, he stays in, in relatively good shape for a guy our age who doesn't lift weights and doesn't really have a strong. So he's, he's, he keep, because he's so damn active, uh, watch this diet. It sounds like, yeah, yeah. And he's like, and he doesn't like over, over, over it. He also doesn't like try and eat really clean right now either. But he also is not like, uh, like he's not the guy to binge, right. And that's kept him in, in a moderately healthy, you know, he's not by any means, I would say super fit or, and he wouldn't say that about himself. So I've been, I've been harping him for the longest time and he'd always push back to me and be like, I feel fine if I said, well, just go get your blood work. You haven't done that in forever. And just go get a test and go see. And he came back in those numbers, three 50 to 400. I can't remember. It was right around that. So he's low, but not at a rate. Yeah. Yeah. And of course his GP tells him he's fine. So, and, and so I continue to harp on him. I'm like, just, you know, consider doing this. And I even offered to take care of it for him and stuff like that. And anyways, he had turned me down so many times while I hadn't seen him in like a month and a half or whatever, he shows up to my house. This was just like two weeks ago. And he walks in and he looks good. I can see his skin, his face. So bro, you look really good. He goes, oh man, I've been, I've been working out. He's like, I've been, I've been back on, you know, uh, his wife and him back on their kick and they're, and they're doing their thing. And I said, man, you're, you look like you're five, five years younger. I can just see it in your face. He's like, really? And I'm like, yeah, yeah. I, whatever, whatever you're doing, I can tell. And he's like, well, um, I started the testosterone, uh, like a month ago. I go, oh, how do you feel? And he's like, well, I don't really, I don't really notice anything. Right. And I'm like, really? And he's like, yeah, I mean, I, he goes, I feel good. Um, but I never, I never felt bad is what he says to me is I've, I've never felt like I had all these bells going off that I was way out of whack or off with that. But, um, no, I just, I feel good. I mean, I'm, I'm consistent with my workouts. I'm doing this. I said, you know, it's funny is we don't realize how much, um, how amazing our bodies are at adapting. And so you don't even realize that when you weren't feeling good, that you weren't feeling good because that happened over 20 years, 20 years of your life becoming more stressful and more on your plate, slowly boiling the frog in the and so you, you don't, but yet you're telling me right now, you've been super consistent with your lifting. It's also motivated you to eat better. I can see it in your skins. You want, you know, I didn't know he was doing any of that. And so I could see it on you. You obviously, and this is only a month in, I'm like, you're obviously feeling and doing so much better, but you don't realize it because of how much you had just adapted to what quote unquote normal fellow. I said, and that's, I said, this is what a true HRT should feel like. It should not feel like, and like this crate, like the steroid monster. And you shouldn't feel like that. Like it's, you should feel good. Like you're describing and it's not this crazy over the top stuff too. Oh yeah. That's so great. Yeah, no, he's, he's doing great. And I, but, but it's funny because he doesn't even know he can't even point it to the testosterone replacement. Like he just, how long has he been on it a month? Oh yeah. Give him, give him two, three more months. Well, that's like, dude, this is, I feel way too. I said, it just keeps getting, it'll just keep getting better because you're going to build more muscle. You continue to get stronger and that consistency of the diet. I said, but I think you just don't even realize how much you weren't feeling great because you'd, I said, and I gave him the example, I'm all bro. I bet if you asked your dad how he feels, he would say he feels fine. You and I both know your dad ain't fine. He's a mess, right? He's a walking mess, but because he's allowed that to happen over 65 years of his life, uh, he thinks he's quote unquote fine. See, that's, that's, so that's an example of how this, there's a lot of nuance in here because for some people getting your hormones, uh, quote unquote fixed could be the impetus to get you to start exercising, to start watching it, especially if it's low, like if you're at a range, here's the thing, by the way, if your hormone levels are below range, there are health risk factors with that. Yeah. That's so, so, you know, if the labs range, let's say 250 and it comes back at 70, I've seen that before, uh, you actually have health risks associated, uh, with that, with that, and you need to get on testosterone no matter what, and they'll get you up to a low normal type of deal. But sometimes it's just that motivation that people need. But again, you know, going on hormones and changing nothing about your lifestyle, uh, is actually not a good idea. You're just adding fuel to an inflammatory state. Um, and that's probably worse for you, uh, than what you're currently. I'll give you another one that I think is important to talk about that is a bit taboo or people don't want to talk about, but in my experience of being a trainer and having the opportunity to talk to so many clients that I've seen this before and after, and I know you will have too, but it's just like, we don't talk about it, but a lot of couples at our age, um, their sex life after a kid or two is. Just, it went from a thing that they all talked about their honeymoon stage where they had sex every single day, and now it's a once a month thing, or once every other week. I can't tell you how many clients and friends that I have that I've watched that happen to, and then how much HRT has radically changed that. And so forget the aesthetics, the health, and think about just the health of a marriage and a relationship, how much I've seen that radically change. Yeah, which by the way, could go the other direction too, like you could have a husband and wife who aren't really aligned with their libido, let's say he's a little higher than hers, but they're kind of okay with it, and then he goes on testosterone, and she doesn't do hormone therapy, can cause problems. Oh yeah. Yeah, so it's an important thing to discuss with your partner, because if your testosterone's low and you bring it up, you will, especially in the first few months, have a dramatic increase in libido. Yeah. You're right, I think that's a good point. The perspective I have, because I'm thinking of a couple people specifically in mind, where the men had very high-stress jobs and poor diets, they didn't train consistently, had all those things, and because of that, they had low to no drive, and because of that, their partner suffered. And I feel like this happens more in the dark because it's less common that men are that way. And I feel like women are better at kind of taking that and handling that. Dudes are a mess, if they're there, they want sex, they can't have sex, it's a big thing. Where I feel like a lot of women just kind of take it on the chin, or at least a lot of my female clients, they would have marriages like this, and they can do, it almost seems like they can just, okay, it's okay, we can wait two weeks or three weeks, but deep down inside, it's not what they want, and it's affecting their marriage. And so I've had a lot of cases like that where men, their libidos were just trash because of their testosterone levels. Speaking of which, you know, in Viagra, first at the market, there was a spike in divorce rates in older couples. Which typically, you don't see divorce in couples who've been married for 35 years, 40 years, and then they saw this spike, and they equated it to Viagra, because the husband suddenly can function, and wife's like, excuse me, we haven't been doing this for a while, and I'm okay with that, and he was demanding, and it was this thing that you would read about. How funny is that? Isn't that interesting? That is crazy. So make sure you're on the same page. So, all right, so here's, we have a place that you can go to for this that's responsible. Also works with peptides, by the way. So peptides are, you've probably heard about peptides, GLPs are peptides. There's lots of peptides, and if you go to nphormones.com, this is what they'll do. They'll set you up with a lab, a 45 minute medical consult, plus you'll get your first month of testosterone, or enclomaphene, or vitamin B12, and it's gonna be 249 bucks. That covers all of that. So if this is something you're interested in, these are medical professionals. This is not, you're not going gray market, you're not doing weird research. Is that with labs, too? Everything. Oh, wow. 249 for the first month. Oh, wow. And then you're all set. Oh, that's really cool. Yeah, which is really cool. So anyway, I wanted to talk to you, Adam, about something which I just did this morning. So I love the fact that we have a big staff now. I really do. For a long time, for most of Mind Pump history, we had like a small staff. For a lot of it was just us. It was just me, you, Justin, and Doug. Doug did everything. And Katrina, but she was always not here. So it was like the four of us and her silently at home. And then we brought on some editors. It was still small staff, but now we have like all these trainers, and we have a leadership team, and it's just growing like crazy. Last count, what do we have, 30 trainers now? Yeah, 30. Well, it's gonna be 32. We're at 47 employees. Yeah, so it's cool. It's really cool because, like you, Adam, you talk about leadership and leading teams. It's just, I enjoy it. It's fun. Yeah. It's super great to be around people that are like-minded. And I just enjoy it. I really enjoy it so much more than it was just, when it was just us, it was fun, but it's even more fun now. Anyway, we have, and this is, I love learning about stuff like this, where our employees will do things on their own together that's helping them grow into better people. I just think that's so cool. I think it's cool because it's like team building. I like to see if they have relationships with each other outside of work. It's also a great, Sal, an example of, and I think every leader, founder of a company is thriving, is to create a culture. It's another example of a definition of a good culture, or what you would call your leadership shadow, exists when you're not around and you don't know, in the shadows. It's like, does that culture permeate even areas where you're unaware of or stuff like that? And if you have a good one, stuff like you're alluding to right now, that you're not even like, oh my God, I had no idea. Yeah, it's not like we didn't tell you to do this. Exactly. It's another thing to be instructed, do these things. It's like, oh, cool, they're doing that. It's another thing where they've made decisions to do and create stuff. Yeah, and I love it. I just, it's the best feeling. I was a part of this as a kid, when I was a 18-year-old kid, 19-year-old, working in the gym industry. I got to experience what it was like to be in a culture that was kind of like that. It was so impactful to my development. It made me just, I just loved it. I just loved it. I still even thinking about it now, it was such a good time. But anyway, so we have some trainers that work for us that are dads. So we have a lot of trainers, again, and there's a group of them that are their parents. And they on their own have set up a Zoom call every week. They call it Mind Pump Dads. I just found out about this like a month ago. I just, I didn't even know they did this. That's cool. And it's so cool, right? And so on one of them, I actually hopped on on one of them. I didn't really hop on. I made a video that they got to watch together and I'm trying to make time to hop on it because they want me on there to talk about being a dad. How do you combine that with work and the responsibilities and all that stuff? So anyway, this morning, I got a message from Rob who's in the group. And he's like, hey, Sal, he's like, can you make this time? I know it's short notice for the Mind Pump Dads meeting. I'm like, ah, I can't do it. I'm actually doing something at that time. So what he did instead is he sent me a video telling me what the topic was. And he's like, if you could add anything to this, I think it would be awesome. And so the topic was, and I'll pull it up. I think this is so fricking rad, dude, that they did this. The topic was, what is a Mind Pump Dad? It's like, what does it mean to be a Mind Pump Dad? Like, what are the qualities of a Mind Pump Dad? So here's some of the ones I wrote down and I didn't show them to you on purpose. Or you, Doug, I respect you guys both as fathers. So I'd love your input on this. So I may ask before you say it or you want to just say it? No, I'll just say it. You let me know if you want to add anything. So I've done seven things. Like, what does it mean to be a Mind Pump Dad? I said, number one, leads his family by example. So I thought that was number one. I think back to the best leaders that I ever worked under. And they were the ones that led by example. You know, I imagine you're like, you're in a war, you got your general on his horse and he says, charge, but he's gone before you even take off. Like, that makes you just want to follow. So family follows when dad leads by example. Number two, I said, works hard, but not necessarily more or longer, just no wasted time. And I think you have to do that when you're a dad. You don't got time to mess around. You can't just hang out and do nothing. You got to take that time and make it count. Number three, plays with his kids. I said that. And that's just because when we had, I forgot what it was we had on the show, talked about the value of fathers and rough house and play with their kids. I said, number four, loves his wife in an understanding way. I said, not that he necessarily understands her because he may never fully understand his wife. We just love them in this way. And I got that from biblical wisdom because that helped me a lot in my marriage. Number five is disciplined and tempered. A man who can't control his anger or desires is a boy. Number six, serves others with a joyful heart. And then number seven is humble. He knows he is human and fallible and gives the glory to others. So those are the ones I listed. Yeah. Can you think of others? What do you guys think of those? I can think of a couple of things. Knows how to mentor and coach well. I think that the natural thing as a father sometimes to fall in this role of a disciplinary where you're the one who just, you lay the law. You just drop the hand. Or you just go and you provide where I think giving your kid the mentorship and the coaching is a really important role for us. I think nothing is, I think kind of our buddy, Michael Smoke said something that's stuck with me. He said his dad used to say to him that you spell love, T-I-M-E. And so I think time, that you just give them present. I think it's so important. I think it's really easy as a dad, again, to fall in that provider role, which I think is so important, especially when you're a young dad like many of our dads are. And so there's a lot of a grind and hard hours. And so it's hard to make time. But I think that falls into one of the categories that you said that I think is so important, which is like you can't F around. Like it's like you don't have, because you're- You don't have all this time you can just throw away. That's right. You don't, you can't, video games and BS. Scrolling. Yeah, scrolling on social media. You can't be, you don't have that kind of time anymore. You're a dad, and possibly a young dad. And while also trying to possibly build a career. And so if you made that choice to do that, one of those things comes with sacrifices of the BS time that you might spend. Because that time now is very valuable to your children. Totally. And so I think that's where, so funny that that'll happen. Did you see what I sent to you that Patrick Bette David sent? I wasn't, I didn't get a chance to watch it. Oh, you should watch it. Okay. Oh yeah, so it's really good. Can you talk about stuff like that? I know Doug hates when I try and play stuff, but I think- Well, play it into the microphone. Okay, I'll play it in the microphone. But I literally just did, I sent you the Patrick Bette David one that he read. I thought that you would really like it. And then, especially since you have a teenage son and are young ones, you have the kind of generations he talks about. And then I also posted, literally today in my story, our good buddy, who mentor family, talking about, he literally was, what are the four things that make a successful father? So I'll play the one that I sent you for the audience, and then we can watch the other one. But here's- At five years old, your dad is your superhero. He's the strongest and cleverest man on the planet. Nothing is scary next to him, not the dark, not monsters, not thunder. You want to grow up to be exactly like him. At 10 years old, dad is the defender. He's the one you run to when someone hurts you outside, when the bike breaks, or when you need a yes for something that matters. He's still a hero, but he is no longer a magician. You start to notice that he gets tired, and that sometimes he does not know either. But behind him, it's still safe. At 15 years old, dad understands nothing. His advice is old, his rules drive you mad, and his jokes are not funny. You tell him, you don't get me, and leave me alone. You are sure you are smarter than him, and would do fine without him. And you never notice how much your silence hurts him. At 20, dad is somewhere in the background. You're busy building your own life with study, friends, first love, first money. He calls you, and you decline with, I'll ring you back later. He texts, and you answer in one word. And every single day, he waits for a simple, hey, dad, how are you? And he doesn't get that text. At 25, it turns out he was right. The advice that annoyed you works, and the warnings came true. What sounded like nagging was experienced all along. You start calling him yourself, asking and listening. He was never behind the times. He had just walked the road before you, and he was trying to save you from the potholes. At 30, dad becomes a person. He's not a superhero or God. He's a man who was scared, who got things wrong, who did not know the right way either. He worked the job he hated so you could have a childhood, and he kept his own pain quiet so you would never carry it. You finally see him as he is, and you love him more for it. At 40, time is running out. You notice the gray hair. The slower walks, the pauses when he loses a word. It hits you that he will not be here forever. So now you count the visits. You hug him harder, say the things you put off for years. One day, there will be nobody left to say them to. After he's gone, dad lives inside you for good. You catch his gestures, his phrases, and his look in your own mirror. You raise your own children and suddenly understand every choice he made and every silence he kept, he never really left. He is in your voice when you tell your children, don't be scared, I'm right here. So call him today if you can, not tomorrow. Screw you, dude. I mean, you made me all weird. I literally, I just, I had sent that to you this morning and then I actually posted. So that stuff is, I mean, it's on my mind a lot. I don't know if I shared, stop me if I did, the thing that I've been doing with Max for like, I think we're a month and a half in or whatever we're, so the lessons and the mentoring and the coaching side is like a big thing for me. He's like, he's now at that age for me where he understands concepts more and so I can really talk to him more about like a little bit higher level stuff and so he's at that age. And so I created this thing where it's 100 lessons and we read them every single night. What's really cool is to see how much he's into it. Like he will, like after he gets done reading, come find me wherever I'm in the kitchen cleaning or doing whatever with that. I'm like, dad, dad, come on, let's do our lessons. And so he's now, I've trained him so much to do it and he looks forward to it. Now, whether he looks forward to it because it delays going to bed an extra 10 minutes or not. Whatever. Whatever, it's working and it's, and what I do is every, it's a short lesson. It's always a very short lesson and they're 10 categories that I actually use ChatGBT to, well, I pick the categories and then I use ChatGBT to help simplify it for a seven-year-old to understand. Understand and so I did you know lessons on family self-awareness confidence love discipline failure like so I picked ten lessons ten things so a hundred total lessons and then every night I add one and then Before I add the new one. I start at the beginning and read through all all the other ones and it's now gotten to a point Where he like before I finish the sentence that he says it so he knows what it is Interesting this is since we brought this up like you made me think of something that is also really I thought was really fascinating. So Whenever you have these moments It's always neat where you see like yourself in your kid a little bit and there's been very few things He's only seven so and I can barely remember back to seven years old And so there's you know, not there's not a lot of things that I go like, oh, that's me or I totally had that but he sparked something because of these lessons that I'm like Oh my god, like I've always wondered where that was in me and the fact that my son has that same Characteristic is so wild to me because I figured it was some some learned behavior or something that I did But the fact that he's got it and I know he didn't learn that from me He just has it an example that I've talked about it a little bit a long time ago on the show Probably or people that I've been listening to enough is like as a kid. I Liked being different which is not normal for a kid. Most kids want to Fit in yeah, they want to blend in they want to fit in and I and I what I always attribute that to was I wish What I thought was we didn't have a lot of what everybody else had so like the idea that I was gonna have the latest Shoes or shirt or the thing that the other kids had was just like that ain't happening So lean into being my embrace it. Yeah, so embrace it. So that's my how I think that's where that came from I'm not even sure. I just that's what I've figured it was But my son is not doesn't have that example. He's that's not here. He's he could have whatever yeah, right and so as I all of all the lessons and we're on like I Think we're on like 60 something right now somewhere around there There's one that every time I I read he makes a big stink about I never do that dad and And it's it's literally like Trying to act cool to fit in with others Oh, and I'm like right off the gate and he said it's the only one I told Katrina This is the weirdest thing. I'm like out of all these lessons that we read that he he listens to It's the only one that he makes a comment on every single time with it dad. I never do that I would never that's not like and I'm like, where is that come from? Yeah, I'm like, how weird is that because I thought mine was because of my circumstances That I know weird, but I but now I don't believe that anymore. Now. I'm like, maybe it was just in me genetics Yeah, maybe it was because my son is not does not have any sort of the same similar upbringing as me yet Has this strong and strong enough that he feels the need to tell me every time? Yeah, I know I know son. You don't do that. That's so weird. Isn't that weird? Yeah, it's all it's so I just had something like this with my five-year-old because so it's not me. It's Jessica I see my wife in him. So my wife for fun She did this for fun when she used to travel with Cirque du Soleil. So she used to work She was married before she was married to me and her husband was a performer for Cirque du Soleil So something for something like three or four years She traveled with the circus, but she also worked for them So she had a job with them and and so and it's part of that's how she learned how to do the silks She got trained by the best in the world and got to do all that stuff Nonetheless for fun, you know what she did for fun learned Russian She learned how to speak Russian and she did it just because she wanted to now a lot of the acrobats and stuff Who you know were part of the circus? Yeah spoke Russian, but they also all spoke French and English And but she just on her own she was like, yeah, I just I just decided I want to learn by the way I figured this out because when her and I before we started dating I had a massage therapist who spoke Russian and I you know, this is when I barely knew Jessica Jessica Comes out and they start speaking Russian to each other and I'm like and you guys know Jessica looks like yeah She doesn't look like she'd speak Russian. Oh She just did it for fun. And she also has a knack for language like She's around my family who speaks Sicilian Yeah, which is a dialect and my wife will understand and we'll reap and she'll say the words in Sicilian With a decent accent. Oh, yeah, like a really decent accent and she'll pick it. So she's got a knack for language Yeah, it's really good at it. So anyway Jessica It's been had this little program to learn Spanish Yeah for for my son Aurelius and it's like his favorite thing to do. He just what he just loves it And I'm like, it's you that's from you. He's got a knack for us. He just wants to learn. It's like his favorite thing He's like mom. Can we learn Spanish? Like what kid wants to learn another language just for fun? That's so so cool It's got to be genetic, right? There has to be I mean that that it's blowing me away I've like told like you remember I came in the room after he had done it I like I waited until it was like the first time the second time was like whatever. It's like every time I'm like This is weird. Yeah, I'm like and it was like of all I keep adding lessons and there ain't no other one That's the one that's the one way Yeah, what do you get? So like I don't I'm like, yeah, I got a buddy. I know what that feels like Yeah, and I'm like that is so weird because I was so adamant that way that like man which I'm it's I still haven't grown Out of that. I'm 100% that guy like who actually you me you and Justin kind of have that in common. We do Yeah, it's a shared trait. I just assumed it was for different reasons and and to be totally honest I never really fully knew because I can't trace it back to a moment of something. It was just yeah And now that I see it in him, I'm like, oh, wow. Maybe this is just a character I've been meaning to ask you so you it was I think it was a month ago You said you were gonna start being really consistent with taking seed. I am. Okay, so every night every night So what do you notice so far? I mean cut I'm my gut and everything is and again, it's it's hard to tease this out because I'm so dialed Nutritionally, but my gut my psoriasis. Everything is feels amazing right now. Yeah I'm Interested if it's impacting my sleep positively because it's now because we're about a month in I mean I was literally leaning over when you were talking earlier just I hadn't checked my sleep score I'm like, I'm on it. I'm on a nasty. I think Doug look up do probiotics impact sleep quality. They probably do I it's the most can say I take supplements all time the most consistent supplement is my seed and there was a Three week period where I didn't take it because they hadn't sent us some. Yeah, in fact, I was getting frustrated So I actually bought my own. Yeah for everybody listening right now. They send us free. Yeah product. They sponsor us. I bought some That's how much I like Their product. Yeah, and I can always tell look at that Probiotics can modestly improve sleep quality. So this I I'm trying to get to the bottom of what some of the things I Thought healthy fats are probably playing some of a role But I'm on a really good I just came off of complaining about what was going on with my sleep a few weeks ago and I'm on a really nice streak right now of not only a high sleep score But also a high readiness score for me, which is really interesting And and I've already like a check all the normal boxes right showing the TV off. I do my chamomile tea I do I mean I I do all the other stuff my magnesium like I've been very consistent with everything And this is always fun for me When I get like this because I do track a lot of things when I'm at this level So it's really it is fun to try and figure out like oh, wow Is that really making that big of an impact as as I as I think it may be so but I've been 30 days Or give or take a couple days very very consistent With it. I wanted to ask you that you brought up seed because I have had a few moments though where I'm I'm like, oh crap. I forgot to take that room and I just ate something. Is it? Okay. I know I'm so So I know I'm supposed better on an empty stomach because the capsule is designed to go through the digestive tract Deliver the probiotic to where it needs to go. Yeah, so eating slows that down, but you're fine Okay You're fine Cuz I that's why I was cuz what I'm gonna make a huge difference what I contemplated is like Oh if I if I just ate something and I'm about to go to bed And I forgot to take the seed waste is it is it a waste or should I wait in the morning and have it in The morning when I'm on an empty stomach, I'll take it before bed. Okay, you're fine. Okay, so it's better to do I asked them the same question. So oh So I got a topic I want to bring up because I was thinking about this the other day I was driving early in the morning Once a week, I'm going to this church thing and it starts at 615. So I'm up early driving and I see these dudes Blue-collar workers and they're out and they're working and I have so much respect for blue-collar workers I just grew up in that with my dad, you know doing that or whatever I'm looking I'm like man. These guys work so hard, right? They bust their butt or whatever and then I remember having a conversation with my son Where he was asking me how why is it some people make more money than other people? Is it because a job is harder? Is it because a job is harder And so I said no That's actually not what makes somebody make more money it's uh How many people can do the job and how and how much people want that job to be done? Determines the pay and so he's like, what do you mean? So i'll give you a good example I said a doctor is a very Important job and not very many people are willing to go to school to be a doctor So they actually make a lot of money. I said but a professional football player Makes way more money than a doctor because way more people like to watch professional football Than go see a doctor and there's way less people that could play at that level So even though a doctor is a really valuable job and it's really hard They make a lot less money than somebody who's playing a sport Uh on camera, yeah, and so I think he got it But I also like to communicate that to to people because I think the average person still gets confused with that Yeah, they look at a job like why does a school teacher make less than a you know? This person or why does that person make less than that person their job is? Here's why? Although it may be a valuable job. There's a lot of people that can do it And when you have a lot of people that can do a job You're going to get paid less. It's just this is my public speaking by the way If you're a really good public speaker, I don't care what field you work in you make you're paid good You you I don't care what field you can be a plumber. Yeah, you could be uh, you anything if you're a really good public speaker You'll make the most in your field because nobody wants to speak publicly. It's like the number one fear people have That's a really good point Even if it's a field like that that I don't care what field if you are that if you were the best public speaker on plumbing I bet whoever that guy is or girl is making a bunch of money. They're making more money than the other plumbers Yeah, because or the other, you know, whatever shoemakers. I don't care what the what the field is artists. It doesn't matter It's because uh, we value public speaking and nobody wants to do it market determines And so this is the thing I think people understand when it comes to pay this thing's really good This is a really good thing to communicate to your kids as they're growing up Because it could be really hard because i'm looking at these dudes It was like it was like 5 30 in the morning. There's no doubt. He works He wakes those guys work way harder than I do Way harder than I do But the difference is, uh, you know I'm doing something like this a lot of not a lot of people can do and it's got a high demand for it So i make more money than the guy breaking rocks Out there and that's just the way the market works. Yeah, there's I'm trying to think how else I would articulate that too because there's also um you know to credit you and what like the To to be good at what you do, right because like you said physically you definitely do not work harder than that. Sure but the the mental work and discipline that you've had to put into reading and studying sure practicing sure speaking and Um, you can't discount that. No um, you know, it's not it's not this backbreaking laborist thing 100 not but the hours, uh That you have sacrificed outside of getting paid, right? Okay outside of someone paying you to do this to get good at the craft that you have gotten good at uh Pales into comparison to probably that that that guy that you're talking about. Um Is it definitely works his ass off? Um, how many hours outside of getting paid has he continued to improve or sure be better at that skill? Sure, but you can't quantify it that way No doubt like you can't quantify it that way the way you quantify it is how high is the demand for that job? Um, and how few people can actually do it or are willing to do it. That's what determines your pay period End of story. So when you look at ceos, like yeah, but don't you think that even even at the like using a blue collar? Uh job example like like blue collar, you know how much money electricians are making right now A ton because of the demand for because there's because we need a lot of electricians with these data centers And we don't have enough so I know electricians right now. We're making half a million dollars a year. Do you know that? Well, half a million so the the point that I was going going towards because it is a hard comparison, but if we were to play this game of like how Even the even that blue collar worker within that trade that exact skill that he's doing There is almost always an exception to the rule too Sure, meaning like there is someone who is the greatest at that thing And there's someone probably willing to pay whether that be in the private sector Or to teach others now how to do that so and there and and to get to that level there's a lot of work and effort outside of the 6 a.m to 8 whatever time schedule you work that you also have to work on these skills in order to Garner that attention or demand for that. Yeah, and so there's a lesson in that also. Yeah, there's always a skill uh but there's You could be highly skilled. You'd be so highly skilled at something that there's no demand and you'll make no money No, I mean, you know, you're the most skilled one of the whatever one of the biggest lessons are fastest early lessons I learned in that especially relative to like, uh education degree and also that so my my high school girlfriend she went on to uh, cal poly and She ended up getting her master's and she got it in Administration she got a job with the loss with the Staples Center with Los Angeles Lakers This was during prime Kobe Shaq era so that so and I'm a basketball fan So, of course like I was like so fascinated always talked to her like she's like Oh, yeah, I was having dinner with Kobe and Shaq and I'm like, oh my god So and but boy, did she work her ass off? She was there the arena many times from 6 a.m Shutting it down till midnight worked many weekends because events are on weekends Dog shit money. Yeah dog shit money. Why and I remember being like, I don't understand and she's there is a line of people Want to do they'll do that for it. We'll do it for free. That's right. That would literally they're retired They already made their money and they're like, I'll do that job for 30. I just want to hang out with I just want to hang out with these celebrities and be around this atmosphere This is why trainers like a celebrity personal trainers oftentimes make not that much money No, because you know the rock could ask the average trainer to train them for free and a lot of don't like okay Yeah, I'll do that for free Yeah problem and a lot of celebrities and at pro athletes expect that because that that is the culture around that So I remember getting that I was like, whoa And in my mind you're around all these millionaires. You're you worked you went you got this high education She you got to be making great. No horrible money. That's why I'd say when you if you think this way and This isn't the only thing you consider with your career obviously something you love you got a passion for it's not just money but if you're smart and you have a knack for this and in this kind of something you enjoy doing there's a Huge demand right now for people who know how to maximize AI and can implement in companies Do you mean companies are all right now? How many small to medium sized companies? There are out there that are like they don't have the time or the energy or the know-how to Utilize AI to its max capacity and if you're some kid listening and you're like, you know how to use AI to its capacity You could go to a company. That's a moderate sized company, you know with like 10 employees and go in there and say hey You pay me for 60 days and I will blow your I will change I will make this so efficient so effective I know exactly how to use I I'll create agents and bots and things and they'll pay you big money To do this stuff because there's a demand for it and a lot of people that can do it So yes But also let me play devil's advocate with this because I find this really interesting topic one that I listen to and pay attention to I'm deeply connected to within our own business. We use AI in lots of different ways and I'm recently fascinated with This conversation. I wish I could remember who the interviewer was that was interviewing Hormozy now Hormozy has acquisition.com a big part of their business is Acquiring companies that are in the 2 to 5 million dollar range They've I don't know how many they have in their portfolio But they have a lot they they hunt after these companies because they have found That they could take someone who's in the 2 to 5 million you take into 10 and then the the money they make off us that Case only is exponentially higher and there's a lot of common commonalities the people that are stuck there So you're getting somebody who has not only been a very successful entrepreneur itself But it also gets an opportunity to dive into lots of different businesses called lots of different platforms And of course AI is the big talk everywhere Everybody is either one Attempting to use it are using it or feel like they're missing out on using it and like where and so And he goes one of the number one things that he sees within these companies is actually a waste of AI Yeah, and in other words, they they they have found an area where they can implement it But it's not an area of focus that moves the needle in the business So where's the time so now they're building this AI thing out just because it's like oh we can build and so There's a lot of AI slop There's a lot of AI that is just becoming time wasting for a business Even though the whole idea of it is to save time and to speed the business exactly why? Somebody who is an expert at this could be so valuable for them because they could go in and be like no No, don't use AI for that. That's so stupid. Yes. Here's a couple ways right now. We could You know, you could do 30 hours of work in one hour work, which is gonna save you that on your payroll Here's something we could do here. That's gonna increase your your ink I mean I had I this is really important that the the people that understand the AI side Either also have a strong business brain or work Very closely to a CEO or somebody who does have a high business acumen because I mean listen within our own business I had this conversation with one of our leaders who's building a bunch of AI stuff for us. That is fascinating Sophisticated and so cool and so helpful But the same person has a way that it could actually that individual impacts our business by $30,000 a month. Yeah another now they're spending their time doing this now. They're spending their time doing that and Because that person in our leadership team has the luxury to do that that his pay relatively doesn't change that much whether he's focused on the driving the $30,000 to the business or he's over here building an AI thing and this AI thing is so cool and so fun and is doing All these things right it's really easy for someone to get distracted and move over there And I had had this talk of like listen. I love what you're doing I love I mean, I think it's so cool, and so is but from from understanding from a business perspective You you are you are walking away, or you're leaving $30,000 a month on the table to go build this thing and so that thing needs to be worth a quarter million dollars a year or More for it to be worth your time instead of doing this thing that you've already proven and so there's a lot of that happening in businesses right now where Everyone's doing AI and everybody to tell selling you on how AI is so important and our businesses We're putting out all this stuff, and it's like yeah But if it's if it's if you're focusing on the wrong things in the business it ain't gonna do shit for you So knowing that is important Hiya is a kid's Multivitamin it's not a gummy candy That's not a sugary thing it also has the nutrients that kids Actually need this is why I love hiya. It's the only multivitamin. I give to my kids It's the only multivitamin for kids that we recommend here on the podcast and my kids Love the taste it's got 15 essential vitamins and minerals There's 12 organic fruits and vegetables all in a clean formula. That's non-gmo. It's vegan It's allergy free and it's NSF Certified so what the multivitamin says is in there is actually in there It's great a kid's diet needs those nutrients and kids diets aren't that great these days Fill in those gaps with hiya go to hiya health comm slash mind pump that'll get you $50 off Sorry 50% off your first order on any of their products back to the show Our first caller is Ben from California, what's up Ben? How you doing Ben? What's happening guys? Hey, thank you for having me on the show. I've been watching you guys and listening to you guys for a few years now I had a couple questions. I know on the show you guys have talked about shift work and how to manage Your just personal wellness and fitness regarding that. So I work in the security industry here in Los Angeles and I had my fair share of night shifts and going through all that now I work in corporate security So I don't have to deal with that as much but I have a lot of friends that are still doing a lot of shift work and security and My main question is how do you structure your workouts and set time aside? For the workouts for your nutrition timing of all that while managing like a family like say like for me I had a newborn when I got into security work and it was hard to you know, take care of the kid Take care of my wife at home but also fit squeezing my workouts in the mornings and Just properly structure that do you guys have a solution for that? There are some strategies I do want to say one thing though because you look like you're a pretty healthy guy Thank you There's certain things that become a higher priority in life when they happen and I'd say a newborn would be one of those and this is I think one of the reasons why you keep yourself a healthy fit guy for as long as you have is that you can afford to Let that be a higher priority and hey, man, if I can get to the gym, that's great If I could prep the meals, that's great But you know So long as I make pretty good healthy food choices Maybe get some good walks in be active as much as I possibly can at this season of my life I'm I'm winning the overall game of health fitness Some young guys mistake it when when they get hit with fatherhood at this time is like They want to try and keep what they've been doing for the last, you know Say three to five years and be like, I don't want to lose my gains or I want to keep gaining or they're so focused On that when I think we'd all agree that you know fatherhood is probably far more Important than you know My six-pack abs are adding 10 pounds of muscle right now and especially coming from a guy you'd be different Conversation if I was looking at you and I thought you're really unhealthy because then I think there's a responsibility as a father to be Healthy fit father to take care of his family, but that's first. I would say that now that being said There's there's some some good strategies that I think we all would agree and we talked about which is one Reducing the amount of volume and training like a maps 15 protocol for a new dad and a new mom I just think is one of the best protocols to follow and then it you know If you can find a day during the week That you spend, you know a few hours in the kitchen and that's your your meal prep So you got a good a good hand? You don't have every meal prepped but if you have a solid meal or two a day that's already prepped for you really sets at least as Really set me up for maintaining or being successful through these times when I'm kind of slammed with my schedule meal prepping Actually helps with the schedule Because everything's ready to go so when you have that ability to prep your meal or make a larger dinner and save some of it It makes things a lot more consistent. So that's really really it when when time crunches happen things get busy meal prepping becomes more valuable When it comes to fitness The I guess that the the way you want to look at it is can I do this in a way that improves the quality? of my life so It's got to be that right. So if it's making you more tired Or if it's taking away from your ability to do the things that are important because you're sore you're exhausted you're fatigued You feel burnt out. We're gonna leave then. It's not then you're not doing it, right? So it needs to improve the quality of life and there's a few things that you manage around that Two of the main ones are well three of them are intensity volume and frequency So intensity is how hard you work out Volume is the total amount of work that you do and then frequency is how often you work out The first thing that you manage when things are getting difficult is what is intensity That's the one that you want to manage the most so you can get away with Workouts when they're easy It's actually quite hard to get away with workouts Even if they're infrequent, they're really intense when you're under a lot of stress. So intensity is one Volume is second and then frequency is last and so what it looks like sometimes when things get really crazy is Every day you do 20 minutes of something, but it's short and it's easy And then the way you judge it is do I have more energy for work and do I have more energy for my family? And if it's giving you more energy, you're on the right track if it's taking away from those things Then you need to adjust what you're doing. And so that's the game that you play with the added stress of exercise essentially Yeah, it's a season of life. So, you know as you get through this, it's really about preserving You know what muscle mass you do have you know maintain a healthy physique and just you know being there for your family and creating opportunities where you all move together and You know, that would be my focus and that's where my my head would be like all the time How can I be energetic and how can I be helpful? And so, you know with that, you know, you can support that with your training You can support that with your nutrition. You can do a lot of the prep to really help your wife with that as well So I think it all kind of you know working in that direction is gonna be the best focus I see in your question to you you bring up optimizing like hormones and stuff Have you had blood work done to see kind of where your hormone levels are? Yeah, I've had blood work done even recently and it's just been with a typical doctor My everything testosterone was normal in the high 600s I my sleep was what was doing okay, and then recently kind of took a tank where I Did some sleep apnea tests and stuff multiple and they said I didn't have any sleep apnea but I've been chronically exhausted throughout the day, but my but my Levels of testosterone are still high. I said something just off because there was a there was a time where I Wasn't sleeping well, and I've you know gotten it got dangerous in the freeway and I have gotten in car accident before So that's that's my one of my concerns right now is trying to figure out what that culprit is and what I should look into You know, it's it could be something specific But it could be something more general like you you're you know, you're a 27 year old father-husband with a kid and a job Yeah, and so you just got all this new responsibility placed on your shoulder And so that's a lot and so that can affect our sleep and and stuff like that. So not abnormal But in those situations when you're exhausted, the last thing you should do is work out hard And that is something you can't control. Yeah for sure Right, right And then I have a question Regardless, I have friends that are still in the security industry that were in previous positions that I was in So the security company I work for has they have a fitness qualification test that you have to take I believe twice a year And it's pretty intense For those people that are going through that that are going to similar things as me the night shift work and kind of easing off of the workouts What would uh, what I just would someone in that position just have to sit aside their wife and their kids saying hey I need to set more time to sleep and recover for this test Fitness test and then once it's over I can kind of come back. Well, I mean you well if it means you lose your job Yeah, what's the test entail? Yeah. Yeah. What's the test of like what are the parameters? so it's based off of your age, so I had to run a half mile and 330 or less Do 60 push-ups straight and then I think it was Um, either a three minute plank or a 65 sit-ups and a go. And then five pull-ups. Yeah. And this is, this is like back to back. Yeah. You, you would train specifically for the test, but look, here's the deal. It's funny. I had this conversation with, uh, I made this joke the other night. Uh, my wife, my, my wife and the kids were talking and she's, you know, and the kids are like, mom, you make our house, you know, so wonderful and this and that. And then they're like, you know, what do you do, dad? And I said, well, if it wasn't for me, we wouldn't have a house. So everybody started laughing. So the bottom line is you have a responsibility. So if you fail your test and you lose your job, well, yeah, that's got to take priority, dude. Like say, how do you, how else are you gonna take care of your family? So then the conversation is like, honey, for the next 30 days, I'm going to train so I can pass this test. By the way, those, those parameters right there, you could move that needle pretty quick on those. I mean, unless you're like practice, unless you're like super out of shape, like 30 days for a guy like you, you know, uh, you, you should be able to get that honestly, just like really focusing on rest leading up to that would do you wonders. Yeah. Right. Right. Cool. Yeah. That's it, dude. Are you, Ben, are you, are you training in a MAPS program right now? I'm not, no, no, I'm, I'm slowly transitioning to a home home workout situation right now. So, uh, cause I have, I have a newborn actually coming in the next two weeks. Yeah. Another one. So another one. Yeah. A second one. Well, we'll send you a MAPS 15. That's what you need to be on. Yeah. MAPS 15. You can run it at home or the gym. Uh, and, uh, that's a good, that's a good protocol for where you're at. Man. I appreciate it guys. Thank you. I appreciate that. You got it, dude. Congrats, dude. All right. Thank you guys. Take it easy. He's got a good head on his shoulders. Yeah. Yeah. He looks healthy. Young guy, young dad. He's 27. He's got two. He's got two kids here soon. I mean, look, your workouts have to make your life better. Otherwise what the heck are you doing? Well, any speculation on the, why he feels so tired, exhausted, all those things? Yeah. He he's working his butt off. He's got one kid. He's got one on the way. He underslept. I mean, I think, I think, uh, I think some people underestimate, um, you think just that, you know, it's cause it's a major shift. Well, I, I think too. Um, like I remember, I remember you guys talking a lot about it, uh, to me beforehand and like, I remember thinking like, I was so worried that I would, my performance would decline. I knew how important fatherhood was for me. I knew how much I wanted to be a present father, but then I also had such ambitious goals, business and so that, and so, and you, you guys always kept reaffirming that like you find this new gear and it's not like a thing you even have to have a conversation with yourself. It's just kind of built in most of us. And you don't realize that like he, he, he may be running at a different gear that he has no idea that added pressure or constantly thinking about it, you know, which will also keep you up at night or give you poor sleep. And so, you know, sometimes it's one of those things where it's subconscious. You don't even realize that you just get this built in added pressure, but you may not think you have pressure because like, I got a good job, I'm doing these things, but it's just like, no, there's this, this internal thing that you have. And like, yeah, I have a whole new level of, I gotta, I gotta succeed or make it. Our next caller is Zahira from Vancouver. Hi Zahira. How are you doing? Hi, great meeting all of you. It's real actually talking to all of you, but I just want to say thank you first for everything you do. You've changed how I view fitness. You got me out of orange theory, so I have to thank you. You've also saved me money, so I appreciate it. Um, so I'll just go ahead and read my question. It's just easier. Uh, I'm writing in for some advice on programming maps, routines around a structural imbalance and while on a pre-wedding cut. So my stats and goals, my body composition, I started at 31% body fat and I steadily worked down to 28% over the last four to five months on a mild cut, taking breaks for vacation, things like that. And then I'm looking to continue it over the next couple of weeks, kind of lock in before my wedding, reach a target of about 25% body fat and my lifestyle is pretty active. I do a lot of multi-day hiking. I, my last one was five days in Northern BC. Uh, I dance once a week. I ski a ton in the summer or in the winter. And my physical issue is one of the questions I have. So I have a mild scoliosis, which causes me to pull noticeably more on one side, fairly recent diagnosis, but explains a hip injury from a backcountry hike 10 years ago, which has led to a lot of hip discomfort, pelvic torque, and a unilateral SI joint compression. It worsened really badly after my last hike and it's become difficult to release without physiotherapy support. And whenever I attempt heavy bilateral loading, so even trap bar deadlifts, back squats, my lower back and SI joint area are killing me for days afterwards. So my main questions, which changed a little bit, cause I wrote the question, um, a month ago is programming. I'm, I was currently running map symmetry. I just recently changed to maps 15 cause I got a surfboard to the face and I'm healing from that, which is why I have the black guy. Um, but how should I tailor during my calorie deficit? So I don't compromise recovery or worse than my SI joint when I go back to map symmetry and then my long-term program planning after symmetry, what should I go to next for someone with this type of issue with the pelvic twisting and SI compression? And can I ever realistically do full body barbell compound lifts or should I permanently be doing unilateral or more tailored or specific movements and then wedding prep? Um, my wedding is in early November in Fiji. So I have to fly there, um, is cutting until two weeks before the best way to lean out. I'm doing a pretty minimal cut at 300 calories a day. My protein is pretty high. It's like one 10, one 20. Uh, I'm not really as strict as I could be. That's why the first cut took such a long time. And so how do I look peak for the wedding week while maintaining my sanity? Um, my maintenance is about 23 to 2,400 and yeah, that's, that's it. You're doing a great job. You are doing a great job. Is that this November? Yeah. It's like in six weeks. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I like a small cut, like a small deficit. I should say stopped about two weeks before. I think that's perfect. As far as workouts are concerned, you know, conventional wisdom says just, you know, unilateral work, but here's a, where I disagree with that because the real world involves a lot of bilateral work as well. Now you, what you're said is it hurts. It hurts when I go heavy, when I do squats or deadlifts. So I wouldn't stop the bilateral work, but I would go light enough to where it doesn't hurt. In other words, I don't want you to lose the skill of doing those movements. You just go light and you just practice the movement. And when you go heavier, you do it on your unilateral work or your split stance work. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense because you're going to lift things. You're going to push things. You're going to do things in real life that involve both arms and both legs. Uh, and with scoliosis, here's the deal. The compensation is not a bad thing. You have to have compensation because of the mild scoliosis. So I would keep those exercises, but go so light and you're gonna have to play with this, but you go so light. We're like, okay, this is really light. I'm doing it. And then the next day you're like, I feel good. That's about where. Uh, I'm going to stay for a little while. And what you'll find is you'll actually get stronger. It'll take a longer time, but you'll still get stronger and avoid hurting yourself. Symmetry is a great program for you. Uh, so you could stay there as long as you want. That's one of those programs that's so well balanced, uh, that I don't see it being one of those issues where you got to come out of it. Um, I think it's great. I agree. The only thing I'd add is like, uh, as you're going through those reps to really emphasize, you know, the hardest part of the rep and, and hold there. So do, do some pause reps, like really like increased tension. So we're just trying to build up the ability to recruit more muscle fibers and to, you know, summon that when you need it the most. Uh, so you're just, you're really training your body and your neuromuscular system to really like, you know, come through and apply that force when you need it the most. So yeah, keep it light, but like really increase that tension, that muscular tension, as far as calories and cutting and stuff like that, just curious. You, you seem really active. Do you know, like how many steps you're taking a day? Um, I mean, if I'm not hiking, it's normal. It's like eight to 10,000, like 10 is a good day. Eight is a normal day. Okay. Yeah. One of the things that you can do as you're like leading up to wedding time is just try and increase those regular days. And then, I mean, if you already kind of do these hikes, keep that, don't change any of that, but then like, okay. If a normal day is like eight, try and make that 10 for a while and then try and make that 12. So slowly increase like just daily activity through walking and movement. Um, and even if you have to get on a treadmill or elliptical for half hour, hour, uh, since we're cutting for a wedding, like I would do that to you, uh, as you're also in this kind of like two, 300 calorie deficit that should lean you out nicely as you, as you come into the wedding time. Yeah. And just, you know, I think you're doing good. Uh, there's, there's this huge risk with getting ready for weddings, uh, that a lot of people fall into both men and women where they, they go real hard to look their best for their wedding. Not only that, but also, you know, as you probably know, planning a wedding can be very stressful and, you know, exercises, stress, and so learning to manage like how much, you know, intensity you go inside the gym when like it's been a rough week of figuring out who's sitting with who in the tables. And, you know what I'm saying? Like understanding that about yourself. Like if it was now, maybe it isn't, maybe it's been super easy and light and awesome for you and that's like, awesome. Then you can get after the gym, but just being mindful of, you know, then you can get after the gym, but just being mindful of that, of like when there's a lot of pressure, pressures and stress that are not physical, maybe more mental, family, stuff like that. Uh, be mindful of that when you're in the gym, that's not the time to be ramping it up and trying to push extra hard in the gym. Yeah. I don't recommend planning a wedding in Fiji. It's incredibly stressful. I took your advice and I did start, um, back in August of last year, I was on a bulk so that I could go onto a very light, easy cut. Um, so I appreciate that advice and I'll just, I'll continue to maintain, increase my steps. Uh, one last question I have then just around the adding in some barbell movement, if I'm doing symmetry, would you say to then sprinkle it into the phases of symmetry or just continue with that last phase where it's all barbell, but keep it light? Yeah, you just get exactly, you run it the way it is. And by the way, to still with someone like you, I, you know, when we're in that last phase of four weeks of bilateral work, if you're not feeling good, I would kick you back to some of those, there's nothing wrong with, yeah, there's nothing wrong with going right back to you. Like if like, but if we're feeling good and we're, we're doing appropriate weight and I'm like, awesome, let's keep it going. But if you, if you, I was training you and you showed up on week three or week two of our final phase of symmetry and you're like, oh man, out of my SI talking to me, I'm like, Hey, we're, we're doing Bulgarians or lunges today. We're not doing squats, you know, so that I would, I would adjust. So feel free to pivot back to some of the unilateral work and replace of the bilateral work when you, you don't feel good when you feel good. Run it, run it the way it's laid out and then start it over again. Awesome. Thank you. I really appreciate the advice and the help. And once again, thanks for everything. The advice you've given me so far, we've listened to your podcast has gotten me to this point. So I'm very appreciative. Awesome. Congratulations. Congratulations. Thank you. You got it. I, the, the, there's this power lifter, uh, who's one of the strongest pound for pound deadlifters ever. Small dude with such sole scoliosis, his body's cricket. Oh really? And he pulls off the ground. He pulls weights that you're just insane. Oh, yeah, you'd have to, I don't know what his name is. We'd have to look it up. Yeah. The, the post wedding rebound is the worst rebound I've ever seen ever. Well, yeah, they put the horse blinders on and it's like, Oh, 100, nobody cares. There's like, these are the pictures I'm gonna look at for the rest of my life. I don't care what happens afterwards. And then I think part of it is what I was alluding to is that, you know, you, you do everything you can at all costs to get that low. Yeah. So you, you know, and we've been talking about this lately about, you know, when you're, when you're stressed and your body's not responding the way you want. And so it's just like, oh, I need to do more cardio. I need to cut more calories. And you just, you keep doing, doing more and more, more just to get smaller, smaller, smaller for this wedding. And it's just like, man, you show up for wedding day and you been starving for the last few weeks, overstressed, like crazy. Then you're like, yeah, then you eat the whole wedding cake. Lamar Gant, I think is his name. Let's see, look up a picture of this guy. I think that's who it is. Yeah, there he is. Oh wow. And he's got really incredible scoliosis, but he's a strong, one of the strongest pound for pound deadlifters in history. 525 pounds at a body weight of 123. Wow. So impressive. Our next caller is Hayden from Canada. What's up Hayden? How you doing Hayden? Hey fellas. How we doing? Good man. Great. How can we help you? Yeah, thanks so much for having me on. Uh, really appreciate your time. I'll, I'll just get right into the email. Like a lot of the callers do. So, uh, my name is Hayden. I'm 32 years old. I'm just under five foot 11. Uh, I'm currently weighing in between 230 and 242 pounds. Uh, I'm a former competitive hockey player who played competitively until 20 years old. Following my playing career, I shifted focus to getting my finance degree and then a law degree. Uh, during this time, I also became a U18 AAA assistant coach in hockey, which led me to what I am now, which is the head coach of a U18 AAA team and a lawyer working in-house for my municipality. Uh, coaching is my true passion, but it brings me great stress and anxiety as well. I've also been through the identity shift of being a private law lawyer and shifting to an in-house job to ensure that I could coach hockey. Uh, the past seven or so years have been incredibly taxing on my mind and body. Since I stopped playing competitive hockey at age 20, I really struggled to find purpose in the gym and I've let negativity get the best of me, but I've finally found a genuine enjoyment and going, uh, now, uh, I've been diligent all summer with my strength training. And now I would really like to cut body fat and this excess weight. My goal is to get to 210 pounds and then gauge if striving for 200 pounds is an appropriate goal in the future. Uh, I'm still built like a hockey player with very muscular quads. My chest and shoulders are muscular and my stomach is my greatest aesthetic hurdle. Um, my biggest overall hurdle is eating. I grew up in an Italian family where the mentality was, if you are not stuffed, keep eating. Uh, I would say it's the one dynamic in my life that I haven't been satisfied in my performance. I use food to deal with the stress of my professional career and my coaching career. Over, uh, for the past two weeks, I've challenged myself to make mindful decisions, such as grilled food over fried food, amongst other adjustments. I mean. on an alcohol cleanse until Christmastime. For reasons I don't fully understand, I find calorie counting to be hard on my psyche, which is why I have shifted to mindful eating. During the hockey season, I'm on the road for two weekends out of the month on average, which makes eating properly difficult. I'm making proactive adjustments to get mindful meal orders in early so that I know what to expect. I've been going to the gym three to four days a week during lunch hour with another lawyer who also happens to be a hockey coach. Lately, our routine is legs, push and pull days. We do incline treadmill for 20 minutes to start, and then we shift into two compound lifts before heading back to the office. Rec hockey season is also back recently, so I play for fun. And I would say I play on average once every week and a half, depending on my coaching and travel schedule. I'm looking for guidance on how I can attack my weight loss goal in a healthy way for long-term benefit. Man, Hayden, when are you going to start doing something with your life? You got to get busy. So I'm not worried about your workouts at all, right? This is all diet. So there's a couple of things we want to consider. I mean, kind of, I could say something about the, I mean, he's got a lot on his plate. Well, let's, we'll get to that, but let's talk about diet first. Let's start there. Okay. So, and I come from an Italian family. I totally get it. And there's this, look, there's this idea in the fitness space that you got to eat perfect, food is fuel, but that's not real life. Real life. We enjoy company when we eat and we celebrate things when we eat. So I'm going to ask you, what are the important meals during your week where you're doing those things? Or do you have like a Sunday dinner with the family? Do you like, tell me about those meals where you want to enjoy yourself with your friends and family? So, Sal, I'm like, I bought a house in my neighborhood, my childhood neighborhood. And my, my, my parents' godson bought the house next to them. Like we're creating Little Italy over here. So, so I would say like, I'm, I'm probably eating at my parents' house at least once a week, sometimes up to three, depending on me and my brother's availability. So it is very important. My parents are very supportive though. They know I'm trying to make these mindful adjustments and my mom's great at kind of shifting some of the recipes to, to accommodate that. But then I also do have a 91-year-old Nona who, you know, calls me and guilts me in the coming over and there's a lot of butter and oil in those meals. But also to that time is very precious and important. So I'm not punishing myself by cutting back on those, those family times. I'm just really trying to shift into mindfully taking what I need and not more tiny to 70% of maybe what my max would be. But again, I would love your input. I got it for you, dude. So this is not hard. Okay. So, so you're obviously a disciplined person. Obviously because of your competitive background, the work that you do, you have discipline. So here's what you do. You want to meal prep and eat what you make all the time, except for when you go eat with your parents and then you just eat whatever mom makes. That's it. And even then I just say, just like we still recommend, still try and eat the meat, the heavy meat first before the pasta and all the extra stuff. And you know, don't eat until you can't breathe. Uh, I know that we were, we were brought up that way. So you just eat and then you're satisfied. You stop. But honestly, if it's the one to three days a week when you're eating with your family, if those are the only times where you just kind of eat for enjoyment and connection and every other meal is whole natural foods, protein first, uh, you're not eating anything out or whatever. You're not eating garbage. You're fine, bro. You'll see yourself get leaner. No problem. And so that's the way you got to look at it. The problem becomes when you have the meals with your family and then when you're on your own and you go eat the garbage or you go eat out or you eat the other stuff or you eat the dessert, that's when it becomes an issue. But if it's like you're with your family and that's the time when mom makes your food, you come out, you enjoy yourself, have a good time. Again, don't eat until you can't breathe, but you eat and you enjoy yourself. If that's the only time you do that and the rest of the time it's meal prep, it's protein first, whole natural foods. You're going to lose weight. You'll get leaner, dude. So the, the other thing that I'd want to peer into the, this is where I chimed in because I, I know somebody like you who is a high performer ex athlete and I'm assuming you don't have little wussy workouts either. And so learning to modify that, like it's not like you eat like a horse one day and then you come back and you're like, I'm going to kill it in the gym all the time when you got all this stuff going on with work and the hockey and you got a lot. So like a maps 15 type of protocol to me is a better type of protocol for him. It sounds like that's what kind of you're doing though, right? Just two compound lifts. Yeah. So I, I honestly, I credit you guys with a lot of my approach. I've just been trying to self educate by listening to the podcast and try to find the similarities and the connections to other people that you've talked to. To your point, I made a very conscious effort to get out of punishing myself, hit workouts and you know, during COVID for example, I was one of the few people that lost a ton of weight because I was doing six hits a week because we were stuck inside and it was just, it was the only thing I can be competitive with. But now that, you know, life's normal again I am just trying to work with, you know, my, my gym partner who again, very lucky he's a lawyer as well. He's also a hockey coach. There's a lot of relatability and connection there on a personal level, but yeah, just doing the 20 minute incline walk to get warm to start that warmup and then just really prioritizing quality over quantity and doing, you know, the two compound lifts for the squat and then the push day and then the pole day has yielded. It's, it's been great because I find I'm getting a very comfortable amount of sore, but not so sore that I can't get back the next day. And then even on weekends, I find I'm more excited to go for hikes. Like I live in Northern British Columbia, there's beautiful trees and trails everywhere here. So my girlfriend and I do that. Um, so it's, I have kind of taken, like, I don't have maps 15, but I have taken that, you know, less is more approach so that I can sit consistently. Awesome. Well, let us give it to you. So you got it. So you got one. We'll send it to you. Yeah. Let's send that to you. But it does sound like you're doing a great job, dude. It sounds like you are like a recovering, uh, athlete, the athletic training guy where you're getting after it. So, but, uh, I like what you're doing. It's everything for you, dude. So if you, if you meal prep, if here's your rules, okay. Whole natural foods. So nothing that is not whole natural, uh, except for when you're with your parents and your grandma and you're doing the family stuff, then you can do whatever. Whole natural foods, 50 grams of protein per meal. Eat it first. That's it. Just follow those two rules. If you're really strict with that, which you can do cause you're disciplined. And then when you go to mom's house or none, that makes you something, you enjoy yourself a little bit. Don't eat until you can't breathe, but you just enjoy yourself. You're going to lose weight. You'll lose weight. That'll happen. One last thing to peer into. Hey, just cause, uh, you know, I know you got the hikes. I know you're playing hockey on a day, let's say like a normal lawyer day, work day. How sedentary are you compared to the other days? Like our, is, is there a big drastic swings in movement and activity and steps? Like, do you know how much you swing? Um, yeah. So like it is a sedentary job, obviously working in house and in the office. I mean, I would say, uh, you know, it's, there's not a lot of movement in the office. Um, I do get, I found that the lunch hour workouts been the best thing to make sure that I actually do it. Mornings were okay after work was just a hard no go. Um, but also too, now that you know, the hockey season's back and I'm playing, I'm also coaching. So there's a lot of movement around the rink and, and you know, skating around and talking to my players and, and doing that. So I'm getting good movement and also to in, in the summer I was golfing quite a bit. I was probably playing one and a half to two rounds a week. Um, which I don't cart. I specifically chose a course that was really good and could get me like seven to 10,000 steps depending on how badly I was playing. Um, and, and that, that pay dividends as well. I mean, this summer for me, the goal was really just work out and find that base and find the love and enjoyment for, for being healthy and in this type of environment and do it in a way that's going to be sustainable. And now that I feel like I've achieved that and I've got a good support system, it's just like, like Sal said, I think it's just time to shift into the food part. Um, I think the rules or the standards that you've, uh, stated with whole natural foods, uh, was one and 50 grams of protein a meal, I think is something I can definitely attack without it feeling like a punishment. I don't know what it is about calorie counting. That's always been demoralizing for me. Um, and, and I, I can't explain it. So, uh, what you suggested, Sal, is, is, is a totally reasonable, uh, alternative. Well, you manage already so many different things and then you just got to manage every calorie amount. I mean, that's, that's why it feels that way, dude. And also you grew up, you know, like I did, uh, food is a, is connection. It's enjoyment. It's an, you know, we suddenly turn it into this like homework and well, then it feels like punishment. Yeah. So that's it. Just those two rules. And then when you go to mom's house, do your thing and I, you'll, you'll see your body fat will, will drop naturally. You just got to stay strict with those two rules when you're not with your family system. And remember that remind yourself of that. Like what's the, what's the value of really enjoying my, my self of food. It's when I'm with my family. When you're by yourself, it's not the same. That's hedonistic. That's gluttony. When you're with mom and dad and family, it's connection. Yeah. And I, and that just builds off of what I've done. Like I'm not doing drive-thrus anymore unless it's just to get a coffee, like a black coffee. That's it. Like it's, it's a hard rule and it hasn't been punishing. It's been great. Um, so yeah, no, I'm very excited to look at that maps 15 program. I was kind of wondering if we would be going down this path based on some of the other discussions you've had with other callers. My only question, um, if you don't mind is just, do you guys have a source that I can go to just to peer into the different types of full natural foods and which ones are better to prioritize than others? Like just to kind of get a real good gauge of what the hard hitters are intuitive eating guide has that. I think we have a whole natural food guide. Do we have that too? Yeah, we do. We've got so much shit. Yeah, we have. So go to, uh, I think it's mind pump free.com and there's a whole, there's all of our guides are there and we have a whole a food guide that's on there so you can check it out. But off the top of my head, uh, all your meats are good. Uh, cooked vegetables are good. Rice, potato. Um, those are good sources of carbohydrates. You probably want to, I think we've done some good episodes that are just, yeah, we have a guide. See Dylan just pulled it up. A whole food guide. So go to mind pump free.com and go ahead and download it. It's totally free. And then just steel steel pedals. Are those okay? Or yeah, it's totally the only, the only foods out. Like sometimes people say bread, that's not really a whole natural food. It's a bit processed. So I'd stay away from bread. Um, you know, cook like nuts can be an issue cause you can eat the hell out of those. So maybe stay away from that. But otherwise it's like, it's pretty open dude. We all, Hayden, just, I don't know if you've ever used it, but, uh, ask mind pump.com is our AI tool. And if you actually input like any questions that you have, uh, it'll not only answer it like it's one of us, but then it'll also link episodes where we've talked at length that stuff too. So you use that as a resource whenever you don't have access to us personally about that. Like ask mind pump.com is a really good, honestly, don't overthink it with the whole foods, you know, hit your protein. So you're going to have some kind of meat in there. Uh, I mean just real quick, uh, sweet potato yams, rice, quinoa oats. Those are like five. I would rotate through those five, all my meals right there. And then meats, I mean, go bananas, chicken, lamb, beef, chicken, lamb, tri-tip. I mean, I mean, if you're eating whole foods and you're eating those types of carbohydrates, you can still enjoy a tri-tip, a ribeye every now and then you can enjoy ground beef. You can enjoy meats that you love. Um, and, and go for the 50 grams of protein from that. And with those carbohydrates and then throw in whatever greens you like, if you're a broccoli guy, a green bean, whatever, just as a filler and fiber, like that's a, that you stick to those, you'll be good. No, it sounds totally reasonable. I really appreciate the insight. I was kind of felt like this is the way we were going to go before I jumped on. So it's, it's nice to have that clarification and then the green light from you guys. So I genuinely appreciate it. And you know, just, just from one coach to another fellas, like I've had the privilege of speaking with, you know, Canadian college coaches, NCAA hockey coaches, AHL, professional European, all the way up to NHL to seek guidance on things to do with my, my coaching career hockey mentality structure. Um, and I, it's just, uh, just genuinely grateful to be able to meet the, uh, the top of the fitness world when it comes to, to coaching and for you guys having me on it, it means a lot. So I thank you. Thank you. You're doing great, brother. Keep it up, man. Take care guys. Thank you. Yep. Doing good. Yeah. It's just like you said, you nailed it. Yeah, dude. How cool is that bro in a neighborhood like that? No, that's so great. That's so cool. So great brother living. The only thing is, so he's not married, right? So the challenge is going to be, cause he had a girlfriend. Oh yeah. When he gets married, then you know, mom's going to want to come over. I mean, I know I'm married into that family. It's a, it takes a, you know what though? Like, uh, he's, he doesn't have a kid yet. Right. So, you know, and so maybe if he listens to this, that was life changing for me. Right. So you got all the help. Yeah. So be patient with the woman you choose when she's like, this is crazy. We have to be with your mom three days a week. So maybe pop the brakes a little bit on that for her. And then when the kid comes around, she'll appreciate like she never did. Like that was, that was for sure me. Our next caller is Sydney from Tennessee. Hey Sydney. How's it going? Hey, good. Um, first I just wanted to say thank you guys for all that you do. Um, I found your podcast, uh, at the end of 2020, right after I got my period back for like, it'd been gone for like 10 years. So yeah, everything you said just reinforced, you know, everything that I needed to hear at that point. So awesome. Yeah. Um, I'm just going to read my email. So I am a 34 year old female, five feet, four inches, 150 pounds. And I've been strength training with a barbell since 2021. I've been lifting since 2018, but just dumbbells before then. So I have four kids. Um, most of them are 10, six, three, eight, and 18 months. So I really want to get stronger, possibly leaner, but it seems impossible right now, just with how busy things are. Um, I have several of your programs and typically run the 15 style workouts because I have maybe 20 to 30 minutes in the morning before, you know, I have to do something. Um, so my PRS are deadlift is 235 bench press one 25. Um, I think it's like one 30. Now squat is 200 overhead presses. 90 I eat around 2000. 1000 to 2200 calories, which I tracked last week. I don't typically track just based on my past history. So it's really 22 to 24. I added it in a snack. So yeah, I try to get 150 grams of protein. I don't do protein powders because they just don't agree with me. So lots of Greek yogurt, chicken, beef. So yeah, just what do you guys think I should do? I'm just, since I've been lifting for a while, I'm wondering if I've reached my potential or if I should focus on more like muscle endurance, higher reps, like getting used to that. Yeah. Sydney, you are winning in life right now. Okay, you have four kids, one of them a one-year-old. You're also homeschooling the 10-year-old. Deadlifting 235 pounds, squatting 200 pounds. Yeah, you've won. You're winning. At this point, it's like stay healthy. I think of you like an athlete at this point. I can only screw you up from here. Like you're doing so good in so many ways that everything that we do in the gym is to optimize the rest of your life. It's to stay, keep your joints healthy. It's to keep your energy good. It's to keep your sleep well. It's to manage any sort of stress that you could be going through that week. It's like that is how, which means sometimes we're in the gym and we're feeling great and we're ripping good weight off the floor. Sometimes it means we're gonna do sauna and go for a walk, you know? So like learning to give yourself that permission to ebb and flow through getting after it on that mat 15 day and other days, it's more recuperative and doing that. That's what I would be doing with someone like you. Yeah, as far as like getting stronger is concerned. So there's a couple challenges here. One of them is you're already really strong and you've been lifting weights for a while. So the stronger you get, the more difficult it is to get stronger. So that's number one. Not saying that you can't get stronger because I think you can, but it gets much more difficult as you get, and you're really strong. You're lifting some like weight that most women can only dream up. The other thing is you've got a lot of things going on. And so here's the challenge, which it sounds like this is the undercurrent of what you're asking, which is like, how do I keep this, enjoying this? Like, what do I aim for? Yeah, yes. Yeah, I'm always been goal oriented. And part of the issue I feel like is we have a home gym, so everything's in the garage. And I've never had someone like show me, this is how to properly do a squat. So it's just, I've done all the research, but like, I don't feel comfortable. Until I'm like super comfortable with the weight, I don't really want to lift it. Does that make sense? Yeah, no. So here's the advice I'll give you for that is learn to have fun with your workouts, which may mean you do different types of workouts. Okay. So instead of chasing maybe strength, because you're already hitting pretty good, you might follow one of our programs with different kinds of exercises. There's still a strength, it's just in a different lift. Yeah, different, exactly. Yeah, if you've never done a windmill and got really strong at a windmill, we're probably gonna suck a little bit at first, but it's really cool when you start to see that weight go up and get strong. Turkish get up, another weird one. Oh, I hate those. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not sure. Yeah, but getting good at it and getting strong at it is really, really cool once you do. And so, yeah, that way, if you love goals and I always don't wanna take that from a client of mine that enjoys that, I would give you goals like that. That's what it would look like. It's like, hey, let's- That's a good point. I would pick a movement. Yeah, like one exercise. Yep. And then you're like, okay, for the next month, I'm gonna get good at a Zurcher squat, or I'm gonna get good at an overhead carry or a suitcase carry or just something different. And you continue your workout, cut out some volume so you can replace it with a new movement but you just go in the garage and you have fun. Have fun with what you're doing. So here's the deal with fitness, which is great, because you're in a season of life that's busy. It's gonna be like this for a while. You got four kids. Yeah. You want your workouts to make you a good mom, to have energy, to feel good. That's the most important thing to you, probably. I'm assuming, but I'm assuming that I'm right. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I do wanna get stronger and I have several friends in CrossFit and they're like, I am working on a 300-pound deadlift. Yeah, I bet they don't have four kids. Ah! Maybe true, but yeah, anyways. So I guess I hear people like that. I'm like, man, I feel like I'm lagging behind. No, you're not. You're not missing out. No, you're not. You're winning. Okay. Yeah, you gotta be careful with that comparison game. I totally understand that. That's true. You're not missing out. You're doing your thing. You're still working out. Not to mention just- You feel good. I do wanna address the CrossFit athletes and the fitness fanatical people that you don't see is what they're sacrificing to hit a 300-pound something is like, again, on Instagram, it looks really cool or in the conversation when you guys have coffee, it sounds cool. But it's like, it's the people that pursue things at that high of a level for that long, they're giving up somewhere else. And you are very, very strong for a person who doesn't have four kids. A person who's got four kids, homeschooling a kid and a one-year-old, that's absolutely kicking ass. But I also respect having goals, wanting to get better, improve. I love that. I'm a very growth-minded person. And my secret sauce to that is to just change up what I'm focusing on. And so my suggestion to you would be to work through our MAPS 15 library is look at the one that looks unique and different from what you're currently already doing and being like, okay, that has different moves that I wouldn't normally do or that's a different type of a program. And go do it and go get good at it. Go do it, go get good at it. Watch the benefits that you get from it and enjoy the process of improvement on that and cycle through the... And then you can come back to a more traditional, let's get strong power lift type of mentality and watch what happens actually. You go through a MAPS 15 performance type of protocol for a while and then return to like a MAPS 15 power lift and watch how much stronger you are in your lifts. And so that's a good way versus just staying so myopically focused on the getting heavier on the squat or deadlift, that's how you get hurt with everything you got going. Yes, right. Do you think it's okay to only do the 15 style workouts? Yeah. A hundred percent. That's why we made so many of them. A hundred percent, yeah. It's the most appropriate for the average person who's got stuff going on like you, 90% of your workouts are probably gonna look like that and they'll be the best. Yeah. Yeah. There's that 10% of the time where you might be able to sprint but the rest, like most of the time, but that's what it looks like. And it's gonna be like that for a while. It's all about the right dose. I mean, if it's working, then that's the plan. And so, yeah, that's why we kept different variations just to keep it interesting. So you can keep going that, yeah, that path. Okay, that's helpful. Last question. I really like wine, but not like a lot, you know, like it's like a half a cup four days a week. Do you think, is that like a hurting sort of? No, no. What's it hurting? No, no, no. I don't. Yeah, I'm sure you're enjoying it with your husband and you're hanging out. Yeah. No, like, what are you gonna trade for that? So you have a glass of water. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool, go for it. Okay. Yep. All right, awesome. That's it. Doing great. Yeah, good job. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. You got it. All right, bye. Yeah, good for her. I mean, talk about winning, bro. You know, the whole comparison game. It is. Oh, yeah. That's what's happening. And I hate to, you know what happens? My temptation with the comparison game is to play the comparison game. Like, oh, cool, you did a three-and-a-half. Well, do you have four kids that love you like that? But that's still playing the comparison game. It's like, yeah, you got your family. You're doing great. You're fit. You're healthy. You're strong. Enjoy it. Now you gotta own it. I don't mind playing that game from our perspective of communicating it because it's hard for the average person to not do it, even if it's subconsciously, right? You can't help. You're hanging out with your three girlfriends. Two of them are CrossFitters and they're talking about their PRs they hit this week and you can't help but go, damn, I'm lifting, too. Why am I not doing those things? That's why it's so important to hang out with people that are in the same life stage as you. Well, yeah, there's also, aside from the kid thing that we brought up, too, there's also the genetic part. There's just some people that were built. I mean, I don't care how much I train. Obviously, I've proven my discipline and training and dieting so that, like, Justin would just wipe the floor of me in CrossFit. Like, he's built to beat me at something like that. Now, get in the pool with me and I'm gonna get him. You know what I'm saying? But it's like, that's what I was built for. So, like, you have to also keep that into, you have to keep that in perspective that, you know, it is true, right? I'll be like, sinking. Yeah, just like I get buried on a 300 pound snatch over my head, you know what I'm saying? I can't tell you how many DMs I get of, like, overhead pressing, where these guys are doing, like, four, 500 pounds. I'm like, thanks, guys. Thanks. You know, it's like, yeah, there's always gonna be somebody that's killing it. Yeah, and there's body types that are made to do those things better than others. And so, it's just like, yeah, you can't. That's why I only ever work out with people weaker than me. Yeah. That's a good strategy. That's it, dude. If I don't work out with you, because you're stronger than me. That's why we fire all our staff. I told my staff. Yeah, yeah, we warn them. You get stronger, you're fired. We start seeing 400 pound squads go up over here. I'm like, hey, hey, you know you're getting close, right? You're about to get served. Yeah, yeah, good. Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. It's Mind Pump Media. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Super Bundle at mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Super Bundle includes MAPS Anabolic, MAPS Performance, and MAPS Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam, and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam, and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes, and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support, and until next time, this is Mind Pump. Hi, it's Delilah. I believe every child deserves enough food to grow healthy and strong. Right now, children are dying from hunger. Through World Help, a Christian humanitarian organization, $30 will feed one starving child for an entire year. Give monthly and provide a year of meals for another child every month while sharing Christ's love. Call 833-3-HUNGER or visit worldhelp.net slash radio.