Is This the Biggest Software Shift of the Decade? | a16z Interview - Atlassian CEO

give people a chat box that can do give people a chat box that can do unlimited power and they're like tell me unlimited power and they're like tell me unlimited power and they're like tell me a dad joke. In the technology world, the a dad joke. In the technology world, the a dad joke. In the technology world, the underutilized capabilities are so big. underutilized capabilities are so big. underutilized capabilities are so big. It's almost trit now to say the models It's almost trit now to say the models It's almost trit now to say the models are far ahead of the value they're are far ahead of the value they're are far ahead of the value they're delivering. delivering. delivering. >> The whole history of software from 1960 >> The whole history of software from 1960 >> The whole history of software from 1960 until 2022 was you would take a filing until 2022 was you would take a filing until 2022 was you would take a filing cabinet and you turn it into a database. cabinet and you turn it into a database. cabinet and you turn it into a database. The cool thing about everything that's The cool thing about everything that's The cool thing about everything that's happening in AI land is that the filing happening in AI land is that the filing happening in AI land is that the filing cabinet can do work. cabinet can do work. cabinet can do work. >> The idea I would vibe code my own >> The idea I would vibe code my own >> The idea I would vibe code my own workday and then run it is terrifying. workday and then run it is terrifying. workday and then run it is terrifying. However, there is a great gain we are However, there is a great gain we are However, there is a great gain we are seeing internally in extensibility of seeing internally in extensibility of seeing internally in extensibility of software using things like V coding. software using things like V coding. software using things like V coding. Everyone has been talking about the SAS Everyone has been talking about the SAS Everyone has been talking about the SAS apocalypse. Some people call it the apocalypse. Some people call it the apocalypse. Some people call it the catastrophe. Why is there too much fear catastrophe. Why is there too much fear catastrophe. Why is there too much fear about this? about this? about this? >> As I've said, not every SAS company is >> As I've said, not every SAS company is >> As I've said, not every SAS company is going to thrive through the next decade. going to thrive through the next decade. going to thrive through the next decade. We're not here to defend all of We're not here to defend all of We're not here to defend all of software. The whole history of software from 1960 The whole history of software from 1960 until 2022 was you would take a filing until 2022 was you would take a filing until 2022 was you would take a filing cabinet and you turn it into a database. cabinet and you turn it into a database. cabinet and you turn it into a database. So the first example of this is a So the first example of this is a So the first example of this is a company called Saber Systems which was company called Saber Systems which was company called Saber Systems which was started in 1960 by IBM and American started in 1960 by IBM and American started in 1960 by IBM and American Airlines because it took the reservation Airlines because it took the reservation Airlines because it took the reservation system which literally was stored in system which literally was stored in system which literally was stored in like vaults of filing cabinets manned or like vaults of filing cabinets manned or like vaults of filing cabinets manned or womaned by by lots of lots of womaned by by lots of lots of womaned by by lots of lots of secretaries um in like the 1950s and secretaries um in like the 1950s and secretaries um in like the 1950s and 1940s. Airlines have been around for a 1940s. Airlines have been around for a 1940s. Airlines have been around for a long time and then it put them in a in long time and then it put them in a in long time and then it put them in a in an early SQL database um or an early an early SQL database um or an early an early SQL database um or an early database back when you know 10 megaby database back when you know 10 megaby database back when you know 10 megaby hard drive probably cost like hund00 hard drive probably cost like hund00 hard drive probably cost like hund00 million um and then that's what happened million um and then that's what happened million um and then that's what happened with electronic health records and the with electronic health records and the with electronic health records and the first one was called MOPS it was built first one was called MOPS it was built first one was called MOPS it was built by Mass General Hospital were the first by Mass General Hospital were the first by Mass General Hospital were the first you know Sei systems predating you know Sei systems predating you know Sei systems predating Salesforce or actually the first CRM was Salesforce or actually the first CRM was Salesforce or actually the first CRM was called axe systems in 1987 so basically called axe systems in 1987 so basically called axe systems in 1987 so basically every single filing cabinet became a every single filing cabinet became a every single filing cabinet became a database and there were benefits to that database and there were benefits to that database and there were benefits to that but it didn't actually make the world but it didn't actually make the world but it didn't actually make the world that much more efficient. man because that much more efficient. man because that much more efficient. man because whereas before you would have a a human whereas before you would have a a human whereas before you would have a a human go fetch you the HR file for Eric like go fetch you the HR file for Eric like go fetch you the HR file for Eric like oh go to the HR filing cabinet get me oh go to the HR filing cabinet get me oh go to the HR filing cabinet get me that file now it's in workday but now that file now it's in workday but now that file now it's in workday but now you have to have a CISO to make sure you have to have a CISO to make sure you have to have a CISO to make sure that your workday doesn't get hacked you that your workday doesn't get hacked you that your workday doesn't get hacked you need to have IT people to provision need to have IT people to provision need to have IT people to provision accounts in your SSO to to workday so accounts in your SSO to to workday so accounts in your SSO to to workday so did the world get that much more did the world get that much more did the world get that much more efficient it did if you have multiple efficient it did if you have multiple efficient it did if you have multiple offices now people can collaborate you offices now people can collaborate you offices now people can collaborate you could do complex joins on a database could do complex joins on a database could do complex joins on a database much much harder to do that on pieces of much much harder to do that on pieces of much much harder to do that on pieces of paper but that was kind of software from paper but that was kind of software from paper but that was kind of software from 1960 to 2022 because the the the filing 1960 to 2022 because the the the filing 1960 to 2022 because the the the filing cabinet couldn't think for itself. Um, cabinet couldn't think for itself. Um, cabinet couldn't think for itself. Um, and now this is like the cool thing and now this is like the cool thing and now this is like the cool thing about everything that's happening uh in about everything that's happening uh in about everything that's happening uh in in AI land is that you know the filing in AI land is that you know the filing in AI land is that you know the filing cabinet can do work. like QuickBooks can cabinet can do work. like QuickBooks can cabinet can do work. like QuickBooks can actually accomplish a task by itself actually accomplish a task by itself actually accomplish a task by itself versus just relying on a human to versus just relying on a human to versus just relying on a human to retrieve the file from QuickBooks in the retrieve the file from QuickBooks in the retrieve the file from QuickBooks in the same way that the human in 1500 would same way that the human in 1500 would same way that the human in 1500 would retrieve a file from you know ye old retrieve a file from you know ye old retrieve a file from you know ye old filing cabinet um from the you know ye filing cabinet um from the you know ye filing cabinet um from the you know ye old accounting department. So it's it's old accounting department. So it's it's old accounting department. So it's it's interesting. interesting. interesting. >> It's actually a great segue into of >> It's actually a great segue into of >> It's actually a great segue into of course what is everyone talking about course what is everyone talking about course what is everyone talking about right now the or has been talking about right now the or has been talking about right now the or has been talking about the SAS apocalypse. Some people call it the SAS apocalypse. Some people call it the SAS apocalypse. Some people call it the catastrophe of you know obviously the catastrophe of you know obviously the catastrophe of you know obviously what's happening in the in the public what's happening in the in the public what's happening in the in the public markets. Um and a lot of people have you markets. Um and a lot of people have you markets. Um and a lot of people have you know different perspectives of how you know different perspectives of how you know different perspectives of how you know significant it is or or or what it know significant it is or or or what it know significant it is or or or what it means. I want to hear from both of you means. I want to hear from both of you means. I want to hear from both of you how you interpret what what what's been how you interpret what what what's been how you interpret what what what's been going on and and and and more going on and and and and more going on and and and and more importantly you know what it means or importantly you know what it means or importantly you know what it means or how we should make sense of it. You know how we should make sense of it. You know how we should make sense of it. You know why is there too much fear about this or why is there too much fear about this or why is there too much fear about this or how should we make sense of this? Look, how should we make sense of this? Look, how should we make sense of this? Look, I think um I think um I think um the world is trying to work out how to the world is trying to work out how to the world is trying to work out how to rate or value software businesses in a rate or value software businesses in a rate or value software businesses in a highly disruptive stage, right? And highly disruptive stage, right? And highly disruptive stage, right? And everyone h has hot takes about what the everyone h has hot takes about what the everyone h has hot takes about what the future's going to look like, right? And future's going to look like, right? And future's going to look like, right? And depending on the takes, you get a depending on the takes, you get a depending on the takes, you get a version of the future that's either version of the future that's either version of the future that's either really good or really bad for all of really good or really bad for all of really good or really bad for all of software, certain companies, certain software, certain companies, certain software, certain companies, certain categories in software. It's a really categories in software. It's a really categories in software. It's a really interesting thing. Um interesting thing. Um interesting thing. Um there's no doubt in my mind that the there's no doubt in my mind that the there's no doubt in my mind that the risk level has gone up. So if you think risk level has gone up. So if you think risk level has gone up. So if you think about it from an investor mindset, about it from an investor mindset, about it from an investor mindset, you're like this used to be a very you're like this used to be a very you're like this used to be a very stable category. Now it's a more risky stable category. Now it's a more risky stable category. Now it's a more risky category, hence I'm going to step away category, hence I'm going to step away category, hence I'm going to step away and watch. And as I always say, and watch. And as I always say, and watch. And as I always say, investors are trying to work out not investors are trying to work out not investors are trying to work out not necessarily the DCF cash flow model of a necessarily the DCF cash flow model of a necessarily the DCF cash flow model of a company for all profits of history. company for all profits of history. company for all profits of history. They're really trying to work out what They're really trying to work out what They're really trying to work out what are other investors going to do, right? are other investors going to do, right? are other investors going to do, right? and they're actually betting on what and they're actually betting on what and they're actually betting on what other people think that that other other people think that that other other people think that that other people think they're going to do. And people think they're going to do. And people think they're going to do. And right now that it sort of logically right now that it sort of logically right now that it sort of logically makes sense. You have a interesting makes sense. You have a interesting makes sense. You have a interesting world where no one can everyone has a world where no one can everyone has a world where no one can everyone has a version of what future is likely to look version of what future is likely to look version of what future is likely to look like and it seems likely to them. It's like and it seems likely to them. It's like and it seems likely to them. It's pretty disconnected from the reality on pretty disconnected from the reality on pretty disconnected from the reality on the ground. But the answer is always the ground. But the answer is always the ground. But the answer is always what if AI can do that in two years or 3 what if AI can do that in two years or 3 what if AI can do that in two years or 3 years? What does that mean? And I think years? What does that mean? And I think years? What does that mean? And I think it comes from a very static viewpoint, it comes from a very static viewpoint, it comes from a very static viewpoint, right? like that people won't adapt. The right? like that people won't adapt. The right? like that people won't adapt. The world won't change. It's like one thing world won't change. It's like one thing world won't change. It's like one thing is going to change and everything else is going to change and everything else is going to change and everything else is going to remain static. Um so you is going to remain static. Um so you is going to remain static. Um so you have this interesting world at the have this interesting world at the have this interesting world at the moment where businesses like ours are moment where businesses like ours are moment where businesses like ours are doing very well, right? We've had three doing very well, right? We've had three doing very well, right? We've had three great quarters in a row and everybody great quarters in a row and everybody great quarters in a row and everybody says so and then you're like wait but says so and then you're like wait but says so and then you're like wait but what's you know that's used to equate to what's you know that's used to equate to what's you know that's used to equate to some value and it's our job to prove some value and it's our job to prove some value and it's our job to prove that that's not the case for our that that's not the case for our that that's not the case for our business, right? We're not here to business, right? We're not here to business, right? We're not here to defend all of software obviously um but defend all of software obviously um but defend all of software obviously um but for our business we feel very good about for our business we feel very good about for our business we feel very good about the opportunities we have the data we the opportunities we have the data we the opportunities we have the data we keep showing the results we keep showing keep showing the results we keep showing keep showing the results we keep showing um and that doesn't mean I always say um and that doesn't mean I always say um and that doesn't mean I always say this as well it doesn't mean that we this as well it doesn't mean that we this as well it doesn't mean that we don't have to adapt it's this weird don't have to adapt it's this weird don't have to adapt it's this weird world that like we are changing how we world that like we are changing how we world that like we are changing how we work radically and quickly work radically and quickly work radically and quickly as we always have as we've been doing as we always have as we've been doing as we always have as we've been doing for a number of years some part of that for a number of years some part of that for a number of years some part of that I think assumes that we won't be able to I think assumes that we won't be able to I think assumes that we won't be able to change right there are strategic vectors change right there are strategic vectors change right there are strategic vectors for Sure. But um and look, the reality for Sure. But um and look, the reality for Sure. But um and look, the reality is, as I've said, not every SAS company is, as I've said, not every SAS company is, as I've said, not every SAS company is going to thrive through the next is going to thrive through the next is going to thrive through the next decade, right? Just like a bunch didn't decade, right? Just like a bunch didn't decade, right? Just like a bunch didn't make it to the cloud, a bunch didn't make it to the cloud, a bunch didn't make it to the cloud, a bunch didn't make it, you know, from, I don't know, make it, you know, from, I don't know, make it, you know, from, I don't know, Windows to to the internet era or Windows to to the internet era or Windows to to the internet era or whatever, whichever era you want to say, whatever, whichever era you want to say, whatever, whichever era you want to say, no one is going to say, I think, that a no one is going to say, I think, that a no one is going to say, I think, that a 100red out of 100 SAS companies are 100red out of 100 SAS companies are 100red out of 100 SAS companies are going to make it through um and be going to make it through um and be going to make it through um and be thriving and growing on the other side. thriving and growing on the other side. thriving and growing on the other side. Also, we we have this version that Also, we we have this version that Also, we we have this version that software kind of dies. A lot of it just software kind of dies. A lot of it just software kind of dies. A lot of it just ends up, you know, uh, as a as a as a ends up, you know, uh, as a as a as a ends up, you know, uh, as a as a as a cash revenue stream. cash revenue stream. cash revenue stream. I I don't I I don't I I don't I can speak for us. This is the best I can speak for us. This is the best I can speak for us. This is the best thing that's happened to our business, thing that's happened to our business, thing that's happened to our business, right? We're in a knowledge world. We right? We're in a knowledge world. We right? We're in a knowledge world. We have tools to play with that knowledge, have tools to play with that knowledge, have tools to play with that knowledge, to act on that knowledge, to do all to act on that knowledge, to do all to act on that knowledge, to do all sorts of other things to solve the jobs sorts of other things to solve the jobs sorts of other things to solve the jobs our customers have always hired us for. our customers have always hired us for. our customers have always hired us for. This logically is very good, but it's up This logically is very good, but it's up This logically is very good, but it's up to us to execute that through that to us to execute that through that to us to execute that through that through that transition, right? which I through that transition, right? which I through that transition, right? which I think we're doing really well, but think we're doing really well, but think we're doing really well, but again, we have to prove that to people again, we have to prove that to people again, we have to prove that to people over time. The the patience part is hard over time. The the patience part is hard over time. The the patience part is hard for markets. for markets. for markets. >> Alex, how how about you? How do you >> Alex, how how about you? How do you >> Alex, how how about you? How do you react to to what's what's been happening react to to what's what's been happening react to to what's what's been happening or how do you make sense of what's going or how do you make sense of what's going or how do you make sense of what's going >> uh well, I hope I hope I'm right in the >> uh well, I hope I hope I'm right in the >> uh well, I hope I hope I'm right in the long run, which is all this stuff is long run, which is all this stuff is long run, which is all this stuff is crazy. Um, I think I I I tweeted about crazy. Um, I think I I I tweeted about crazy. Um, I think I I I tweeted about this a few weeks ago where my my kind of this a few weeks ago where my my kind of this a few weeks ago where my my kind of cursory glance is that there were three cursory glance is that there were three cursory glance is that there were three different types of SAS companies and the different types of SAS companies and the different types of SAS companies and the public markets couldn't tell the public markets couldn't tell the public markets couldn't tell the difference between the three. difference between the three. difference between the three. And one is where seats are tied to And one is where seats are tied to And one is where seats are tied to outcomes. So seat seats are being used outcomes. So seat seats are being used outcomes. So seat seats are being used by people who use kind of going back to by people who use kind of going back to by people who use kind of going back to the filing cabinet metaphor, right? Like the filing cabinet metaphor, right? Like the filing cabinet metaphor, right? Like if I'm Zenesk, I'm using Zenesk and and if I'm Zenesk, I'm using Zenesk and and if I'm Zenesk, I'm using Zenesk and and you know, they came up with a very you know, they came up with a very you know, they came up with a very clever pricing model. Um, which by the clever pricing model. Um, which by the clever pricing model. Um, which by the way, like maybe I can take a step back way, like maybe I can take a step back way, like maybe I can take a step back before I even answer your question, before I even answer your question, before I even answer your question, which is there's this great book by Dan which is there's this great book by Dan which is there's this great book by Dan Arieli called Predictably Irrational. Arieli called Predictably Irrational. Arieli called Predictably Irrational. And I used to give it to all my product And I used to give it to all my product And I used to give it to all my product managers at my company. It's like study managers at my company. It's like study managers at my company. It's like study this to figure out how we charge people this to figure out how we charge people this to figure out how we charge people for stuff. Um because it turns out like for stuff. Um because it turns out like for stuff. Um because it turns out like people like and the example that he people like and the example that he people like and the example that he gives is like imagine you're locked out gives is like imagine you're locked out gives is like imagine you're locked out of your your apartment. It's midnight. of your your apartment. It's midnight. of your your apartment. It's midnight. You hire a locksmith comes one minute You hire a locksmith comes one minute You hire a locksmith comes one minute later lets you in in 30 seconds says later lets you in in 30 seconds says later lets you in in 30 seconds says it's 500 bucks. You're like 500 bucks? it's 500 bucks. You're like 500 bucks? it's 500 bucks. You're like 500 bucks? What the f? Like you just did like 90 What the f? Like you just did like 90 What the f? Like you just did like 90 seconds of work. You leave him a seconds of work. You leave him a seconds of work. You leave him a one-star Yelp review, you know, no tip, one-star Yelp review, you know, no tip, one-star Yelp review, you know, no tip, you know, protest the charge on your you know, protest the charge on your you know, protest the charge on your credit card. Now imagine parallel credit card. Now imagine parallel credit card. Now imagine parallel universe light, you know, locksmith universe light, you know, locksmith universe light, you know, locksmith comes um spends nine hours trying to let comes um spends nine hours trying to let comes um spends nine hours trying to let you in. um goes back to his office to you in. um goes back to his office to you in. um goes back to his office to get more tools, finally by like, you get more tools, finally by like, you get more tools, finally by like, you know, 9:30 in the morning, finally lets know, 9:30 in the morning, finally lets know, 9:30 in the morning, finally lets you into your apartment. You're so you into your apartment. You're so you into your apartment. You're so grateful that he spent nine and a half grateful that he spent nine and a half grateful that he spent nine and a half hours helping you get into your hours helping you get into your hours helping you get into your apartment that you give him a $200 tip, apartment that you give him a $200 tip, apartment that you give him a $200 tip, leave him a fivestar rating on Yelp. leave him a fivestar rating on Yelp. leave him a fivestar rating on Yelp. This is this is an example that he gives This is this is an example that he gives This is this is an example that he gives in the book. And it basically means in the book. And it basically means in the book. And it basically means humans are kind of capable and willing humans are kind of capable and willing humans are kind of capable and willing to pay for incompetence. Like it's like to pay for incompetence. Like it's like to pay for incompetence. Like it's like a lot of pricing is about fairness. like a lot of pricing is about fairness. like a lot of pricing is about fairness. like it feels fair that I give that guy more it feels fair that I give that guy more it feels fair that I give that guy more money even though he's completely money even though he's completely money even though he's completely incompetent than his counterpart who's incompetent than his counterpart who's incompetent than his counterpart who's super competent where I'm so pissed that super competent where I'm so pissed that super competent where I'm so pissed that he overcharged me and it doesn't make he overcharged me and it doesn't make he overcharged me and it doesn't make any sense but like it feels fair and if any sense but like it feels fair and if any sense but like it feels fair and if you think about how we got to SAS like you think about how we got to SAS like you think about how we got to SAS like per seat per month like when you're per seat per month like when you're per seat per month like when you're giving away in many cases it's like the giving away in many cases it's like the giving away in many cases it's like the the additional cost of provisioning a the additional cost of provisioning a the additional cost of provisioning a seat digitally is like close to zero not seat digitally is like close to zero not seat digitally is like close to zero not for everything but for some things like for everything but for some things like for everything but for some things like it just feels fair it's like oh you have it just feels fair it's like oh you have it just feels fair it's like oh you have 500 seats you pay more money than if you 500 seats you pay more money than if you 500 seats you pay more money than if you have one seat even though It's kind of have one seat even though It's kind of have one seat even though It's kind of the same thing going on in the the same thing going on in the the same thing going on in the background. So the three types of SAS background. So the three types of SAS background. So the three types of SAS companies that I think of, you know, companies that I think of, you know, companies that I think of, you know, great great oversimplification here, but great great oversimplification here, but great great oversimplification here, but category one is like you have seats, the category one is like you have seats, the category one is like you have seats, the seats are being used to produce some seats are being used to produce some seats are being used to produce some element of work, but now uhoh, like you element of work, but now uhoh, like you element of work, but now uhoh, like you don't need the seats anymore to produce don't need the seats anymore to produce don't need the seats anymore to produce the element of work. So like Zenesk the element of work. So like Zenesk the element of work. So like Zenesk would be like patient one there where would be like patient one there where would be like patient one there where it's like how many seats does a Zenesk it's like how many seats does a Zenesk it's like how many seats does a Zenesk customer need today if they're using customer need today if they're using customer need today if they're using Sierra Decagon or you know roll their Sierra Decagon or you know roll their Sierra Decagon or you know roll their own? It's like potentially zero. So own? It's like potentially zero. So own? It's like potentially zero. So Zendesk, we talk about the the present Zendesk, we talk about the the present Zendesk, we talk about the the present value of future cash flows. It's like value of future cash flows. It's like value of future cash flows. It's like they're imp peril because the per seat they're imp peril because the per seat they're imp peril because the per seat pricing like if if Zenes said we're just pricing like if if Zenes said we're just pricing like if if Zenes said we're just going to charge you per seat per month going to charge you per seat per month going to charge you per seat per month for the current thing, you know, never for the current thing, you know, never for the current thing, you know, never make a change to our code or our make a change to our code or our make a change to our code or our pricing, that revenue stream is 100% pricing, that revenue stream is 100% pricing, that revenue stream is 100% going to zero. On the other hand, it going to zero. On the other hand, it going to zero. On the other hand, it could triple or quadruple because they could triple or quadruple because they could triple or quadruple because they might just move to outcome based pricing might just move to outcome based pricing might just move to outcome based pricing and ditch. I mean, it still has to be and ditch. I mean, it still has to be and ditch. I mean, it still has to be subject to the laws of fairness and subject to the laws of fairness and subject to the laws of fairness and predictable irrationality that we talked predictable irrationality that we talked predictable irrationality that we talked about. But you know something like about. But you know something like about. But you know something like Zenesk it could go up it could go down Zenesk it could go up it could go down Zenesk it could go up it could go down but like the default path unless it but like the default path unless it but like the default path unless it changes going to zero. On the complete changes going to zero. On the complete changes going to zero. On the complete other side of that is you might have per other side of that is you might have per other side of that is you might have per seat pricing because it feels fair but seat pricing because it feels fair but seat pricing because it feels fair but the seats are not tied to an outcome. So the seats are not tied to an outcome. So the seats are not tied to an outcome. So like workday has this great pricing like workday has this great pricing like workday has this great pricing model where like oh you're GE you have model where like oh you're GE you have model where like oh you're GE you have 340,000 employees. Yeah I'm going to 340,000 employees. Yeah I'm going to 340,000 employees. Yeah I'm going to charge you per employee per month. Why? charge you per employee per month. Why? charge you per employee per month. Why? I don't know. It just feels fair. But I don't know. It just feels fair. But I don't know. It just feels fair. But those employees that work at GE are not those employees that work at GE are not those employees that work at GE are not using workday to produce an outcome. So using workday to produce an outcome. So using workday to produce an outcome. So workday I think is fine. In fact, if workday I think is fine. In fact, if workday I think is fine. In fact, if anything, and this kind of goes into anything, and this kind of goes into anything, and this kind of goes into like what can you do with AI tools, like what can you do with AI tools, like what can you do with AI tools, well, when you hire somebody at GE, they well, when you hire somebody at GE, they well, when you hire somebody at GE, they need to do a reference check and make need to do a reference check and make need to do a reference check and make sure that you worked at the three sure that you worked at the three sure that you worked at the three companies that you claimed you worked companies that you claimed you worked companies that you claimed you worked at. An HR person has to go look at the at. An HR person has to go look at the at. An HR person has to go look at the file that's in Workday and go call those file that's in Workday and go call those file that's in Workday and go call those three companies. Workday can call those three companies. Workday can call those three companies. Workday can call those three companies. Like an AI tool can do three companies. Like an AI tool can do three companies. Like an AI tool can do that, but only if you're the system of that, but only if you're the system of that, but only if you're the system of record. So, you know, something like record. So, you know, something like record. So, you know, something like Workday or like in it, it's down 45% in Workday or like in it, it's down 45% in Workday or like in it, it's down 45% in the first like, you know, it's February the first like, you know, it's February the first like, you know, it's February 26th or 27th today, down 45%. Nobody's 26th or 27th today, down 45%. Nobody's 26th or 27th today, down 45%. Nobody's going to get rid of QuickBooks. Um, so, going to get rid of QuickBooks. Um, so, going to get rid of QuickBooks. Um, so, you know, these are the two tent poles you know, these are the two tent poles you know, these are the two tent poles is like, you know, per like seats are is like, you know, per like seats are is like, you know, per like seats are charged per month or per whatever and charged per month or per whatever and charged per month or per whatever and it's tied to some kind of work and then it's tied to some kind of work and then it's tied to some kind of work and then seats just happen to be a clever pricing seats just happen to be a clever pricing seats just happen to be a clever pricing trick, but it's not tried tied to work. trick, but it's not tried tied to work. trick, but it's not tried tied to work. And then there are things that are in And then there are things that are in And then there are things that are in the middle like Adobe like yeah it's the middle like Adobe like yeah it's the middle like Adobe like yeah it's maybe you need more seats maybe you need maybe you need more seats maybe you need maybe you need more seats maybe you need fewer seats but it's not as stark as the fewer seats but it's not as stark as the fewer seats but it's not as stark as the Zenesk example nor the workday example Zenesk example nor the workday example Zenesk example nor the workday example and then against that you have this kind and then against that you have this kind and then against that you have this kind of undercurrent of oh I'm going to v of undercurrent of oh I'm going to v of undercurrent of oh I'm going to v code everything which I think is just code everything which I think is just code everything which I think is just preposterous having been a software preposterous having been a software preposterous having been a software developer for a very very long time developer for a very very long time developer for a very very long time because uh the the person that I like to because uh the the person that I like to because uh the the person that I like to cite as my counter example here is my my cite as my counter example here is my my cite as my counter example here is my my second favorite economist um David second favorite economist um David second favorite economist um David Ricardo um and in 1817 uh has been Ricardo um and in 1817 uh has been Ricardo um and in 1817 uh has been around for a He he lived a long time around for a He he lived a long time around for a He he lived a long time ago. But it's like this is where the ago. But it's like this is where the ago. But it's like this is where the theory of comparative advantage comes theory of comparative advantage comes theory of comparative advantage comes from. It's like you could also grow your from. It's like you could also grow your from. It's like you could also grow your own food. You could weld your own own food. You could weld your own own food. You could weld your own aluminum. But even those are bad aluminum. But even those are bad aluminum. But even those are bad examples because it's very simple to examples because it's very simple to examples because it's very simple to grow food or weld aluminum. It's just I grow food or weld aluminum. It's just I grow food or weld aluminum. It's just I have a comparative advantage filming have a comparative advantage filming have a comparative advantage filming podcast with you. I could do that too, podcast with you. I could do that too, podcast with you. I could do that too, but I can earn more doing this even but I can earn more doing this even but I can earn more doing this even though I might be more productive than though I might be more productive than though I might be more productive than the plumber, but I should still do the the plumber, but I should still do the the plumber, but I should still do the podcast. that's actually less important podcast. that's actually less important podcast. that's actually less important than the what I like to call like all than the what I like to call like all than the what I like to call like all the edge cases that lie beneath, right? the edge cases that lie beneath, right? the edge cases that lie beneath, right? So like I could theoretically vibe code So like I could theoretically vibe code So like I could theoretically vibe code me some workday, but what happens in me some workday, but what happens in me some workday, but what happens in Indiana if the person leaves and they're Indiana if the person leaves and they're Indiana if the person leaves and they're on maternity leave like all these edge on maternity leave like all these edge on maternity leave like all these edge cases where it's just you don't know cases where it's just you don't know cases where it's just you don't know about them unless you've encountered about them unless you've encountered about them unless you've encountered them in the wild. So uh a lot of them in the wild. So uh a lot of them in the wild. So uh a lot of software is just a set of deterministic software is just a set of deterministic software is just a set of deterministic rules that have been learned from like rules that have been learned from like rules that have been learned from like in many cases decades of experience and in many cases decades of experience and in many cases decades of experience and the rules are not exposed. The rules are the rules are not exposed. The rules are the rules are not exposed. The rules are they're kind of embedded and you can't they're kind of embedded and you can't they're kind of embedded and you can't just replicate them. You replicate them just replicate them. You replicate them just replicate them. You replicate them through experience. So I think it's like through experience. So I think it's like through experience. So I think it's like again there are kind of three types of again there are kind of three types of again there are kind of three types of SAS in my oversimplistic view of the SAS in my oversimplistic view of the SAS in my oversimplistic view of the world and then there is this like uh oh world and then there is this like uh oh world and then there is this like uh oh like it's no like the IP is worthless like it's no like the IP is worthless like it's no like the IP is worthless because everybody's going to vibe code because everybody's going to vibe code because everybody's going to vibe code their own thing and I think on maybe for their own thing and I think on maybe for their own thing and I think on maybe for certain subcategories if it's a very certain subcategories if it's a very certain subcategories if it's a very simple task with no edge cases or maybe simple task with no edge cases or maybe simple task with no edge cases or maybe you don't need all the edge cases that you don't need all the edge cases that you don't need all the edge cases that have been built in I think software is have been built in I think software is have been built in I think software is going to do great because it's the true going to do great because it's the true going to do great because it's the true systems of record that have sticky systems of record that have sticky systems of record that have sticky software that people rely on that have software that people rely on that have software that people rely on that have all of these embedded edge cases is all of these embedded edge cases is all of these embedded edge cases is they're going to start adding AI uh they're going to start adding AI uh they're going to start adding AI uh where AI does the work right it's like where AI does the work right it's like where AI does the work right it's like you know workday will say do you want us you know workday will say do you want us you know workday will say do you want us to do a background check into it will to do a background check into it will to do a background check into it will say do you want us to go collect on your say do you want us to go collect on your say do you want us to go collect on your outstanding accounts receivable you outstanding accounts receivable you outstanding accounts receivable you don't have to go hire humans to do that don't have to go hire humans to do that don't have to go hire humans to do that you go hire your software to do these you go hire your software to do these you go hire your software to do these tasks that is starting to happen but tasks that is starting to happen but tasks that is starting to happen but when that does happen the present value when that does happen the present value when that does happen the present value of future cash flow like that's going to of future cash flow like that's going to of future cash flow like that's going to go up a lot like the the the future c go up a lot like the the the future c go up a lot like the the the future c like the the present cash flows are like the the present cash flows are like the the present cash flows are going to go up a lot and I I just it's going to go up a lot and I I just it's going to go up a lot and I I just it's it's astonishing to me that a lot of it's astonishing to me that a lot of it's astonishing to me that a lot of public market investors, they can't tell public market investors, they can't tell public market investors, they can't tell the difference between these different the difference between these different the difference between these different buckets and they're not giving any kind buckets and they're not giving any kind buckets and they're not giving any kind like they're very excited about AI, but like they're very excited about AI, but like they're very excited about AI, but how do you deploy the AI? You have to how do you deploy the AI? You have to how do you deploy the AI? You have to deploy the AI through software that's a deploy the AI through software that's a deploy the AI through software that's a system of record. I think it's a system of record. I think it's a system of record. I think it's a fascinating time for everyone getting to fascinating time for everyone getting to fascinating time for everyone getting to first principles of what a business first principles of what a business first principles of what a business really does. So like you have all these really does. So like you have all these really does. So like you have all these these views, right? I I personally hate these views, right? I I personally hate these views, right? I I personally hate the system of record thing because it the system of record thing because it the system of record thing because it sounds like, oh, a system of record is sounds like, oh, a system of record is sounds like, oh, a system of record is just like a database sitting there. It's just like a database sitting there. It's just like a database sitting there. It's very static. I put stuff into it and I very static. I put stuff into it and I very static. I put stuff into it and I pull it out and that's it. And that pull it out and that's it. And that pull it out and that's it. And that views a business as a set of filing views a business as a set of filing views a business as a set of filing cabinets in a very sort of industrial cabinets in a very sort of industrial cabinets in a very sort of industrial era kind of world. Right now that was era kind of world. Right now that was era kind of world. Right now that was very different than the pre-industrial very different than the pre-industrial very different than the pre-industrial era of a business. So totally it had a a era of a business. So totally it had a a era of a business. So totally it had a a value. And I get why we have the term value. And I get why we have the term value. And I get why we have the term system of record but it feels a little system of record but it feels a little system of record but it feels a little bit like we why we have a floppy disc bit like we why we have a floppy disc bit like we why we have a floppy disc icon as the save button, right? Where my icon as the save button, right? Where my icon as the save button, right? Where my kids like what's that? And I'm like kids like what's that? And I'm like kids like what's that? And I'm like that's a disc. And they're like what is that's a disc. And they're like what is that's a disc. And they're like what is that? And I'm like oh you've never that? And I'm like oh you've never that? And I'm like oh you've never actually physically seen a disc but you actually physically seen a disc but you actually physically seen a disc but you still have this icon. You know what the still have this icon. You know what the still have this icon. You know what the save button does. And the reason it's save button does. And the reason it's save button does. And the reason it's questioning this is to me businesses are questioning this is to me businesses are questioning this is to me businesses are a set of processes. They're not a system a set of processes. They're not a system a set of processes. They're not a system of record. Like these are all of record. Like these are all of record. Like these are all process-based systems, right? Everything process-based systems, right? Everything process-based systems, right? Everything Alex has just said is totally true, but Alex has just said is totally true, but Alex has just said is totally true, but there are processes like reference there are processes like reference there are processes like reference checking or other things. And your checking or other things. And your checking or other things. And your ability to coordinate a set of processes ability to coordinate a set of processes ability to coordinate a set of processes to happen as cheaply and efficiently and to happen as cheaply and efficiently and to happen as cheaply and efficiently and quickly as possible is actually in a quickly as possible is actually in a quickly as possible is actually in a knowledge business, not an industrial knowledge business, not an industrial knowledge business, not an industrial era business, but a knowledge era era business, but a knowledge era era business, but a knowledge era business, your entire business. Right? I business, your entire business. Right? I business, your entire business. Right? I have 10,000 plus people who walk into have 10,000 plus people who walk into have 10,000 plus people who walk into buildings every day and bring their buildings every day and bring their buildings every day and bring their brains and walk out and take their brains and walk out and take their brains and walk out and take their brains with them and that's it. I don't brains with them and that's it. I don't brains with them and that's it. I don't have any atoms. I don't have any bits. I have any atoms. I don't have any bits. I have any atoms. I don't have any bits. I don't stamp any steel. I don't even have don't stamp any steel. I don't even have don't stamp any steel. I don't even have any filing cabinets, I don't think. any filing cabinets, I don't think. any filing cabinets, I don't think. Right. And I am all about coordinating Right. And I am all about coordinating Right. And I am all about coordinating the sets of processes, which I think the sets of processes, which I think the sets of processes, which I think most modern businesses probably are. most modern businesses probably are. most modern businesses probably are. Right. When you get to how does that Right. When you get to how does that Right. When you get to how does that relate to Alex's commentary? I think relate to Alex's commentary? I think relate to Alex's commentary? I think it's totally true. We have different it's totally true. We have different it's totally true. We have different types of processes within a business. types of processes within a business. types of processes within a business. There are what I like to call input There are what I like to call input There are what I like to call input constrained and output constrained constrained and output constrained constrained and output constrained processes. The customer service example processes. The customer service example processes. The customer service example with Zenesk, that's input constraint. with Zenesk, that's input constraint. with Zenesk, that's input constraint. Your customers ask a certain amount of Your customers ask a certain amount of Your customers ask a certain amount of questions. How quickly you process those questions. How quickly you process those questions. How quickly you process those is about your efficiency, cost, speed, is about your efficiency, cost, speed, is about your efficiency, cost, speed, quality of running that queue. If you do quality of running that queue. If you do quality of running that queue. If you do it 10 times as fast, you don't get 10 it 10 times as fast, you don't get 10 it 10 times as fast, you don't get 10 times as many questions, right? Like times as many questions, right? Like times as many questions, right? Like they that you have so many customers, they that you have so many customers, they that you have so many customers, there's a there's a relationship or a there's a there's a relationship or a there's a there's a relationship or a ratio. For every customer, they ask five ratio. For every customer, they ask five ratio. For every customer, they ask five questions. How can I make them ask less questions. How can I make them ask less questions. How can I make them ask less questions or process questions quicker? questions or process questions quicker? questions or process questions quicker? Right? There's actually a lot in a Right? There's actually a lot in a Right? There's actually a lot in a business that is an input constrained business that is an input constrained business that is an input constrained kind of a process. Uh I always use our kind of a process. Uh I always use our kind of a process. Uh I always use our legal team as an example, right? Their legal team as an example, right? Their legal team as an example, right? Their job is not to generate legal work. It is job is not to generate legal work. It is job is not to generate legal work. It is to answer it. So how many leases do we to answer it. So how many leases do we to answer it. So how many leases do we have? How many NDAs? How many contracts? have? How many NDAs? How many contracts? have? How many NDAs? How many contracts? It's like a fixed total set. And for It's like a fixed total set. And for It's like a fixed total set. And for that work, I'm trying to do it as that work, I'm trying to do it as that work, I'm trying to do it as efficiently as possible. And you have efficiently as possible. And you have efficiently as possible. And you have one entire vector for that set of one entire vector for that set of one entire vector for that set of processes. But then I have kind of processes. But then I have kind of processes. But then I have kind of output constrained work. If I think output constrained work. If I think output constrained work. If I think about anything creative, marketing, I about anything creative, marketing, I about anything creative, marketing, I would argue software development, would argue software development, would argue software development, technology, where I can theoretically do technology, where I can theoretically do technology, where I can theoretically do an unlimited amount of tasks, right? I'm an unlimited amount of tasks, right? I'm an unlimited amount of tasks, right? I'm constrained by my creativity if you like constrained by my creativity if you like constrained by my creativity if you like and how many things I can think of to and how many things I can think of to and how many things I can think of to do, how much value I can deliver for my do, how much value I can deliver for my do, how much value I can deliver for my customers. customers. customers. Those are actually where I'll take the Those are actually where I'll take the Those are actually where I'll take the efficiency gain and probably do more efficiency gain and probably do more efficiency gain and probably do more output rather than limit input within output rather than limit input within output rather than limit input within the bounds of making my company the bounds of making my company the bounds of making my company profitable and all these sorts of profitable and all these sorts of profitable and all these sorts of things. Um the challenge is to look at a things. Um the challenge is to look at a things. Um the challenge is to look at a business and try to make this analysis business and try to make this analysis business and try to make this analysis from the outside because all of your from the outside because all of your from the outside because all of your input constrained processes and output input constrained processes and output input constrained processes and output constrained processes actually work constrained processes actually work constrained processes actually work together to make a business and they all together to make a business and they all together to make a business and they all have to kind of liaz in all these have to kind of liaz in all these have to kind of liaz in all these interesting ways and that's why you see interesting ways and that's why you see interesting ways and that's why you see weird pieces of software that are just weird pieces of software that are just weird pieces of software that are just coordinating quote unquote humans are coordinating quote unquote humans are coordinating quote unquote humans are running processes and what you're saying running processes and what you're saying running processes and what you're saying about Indiana is totally true because about Indiana is totally true because about Indiana is totally true because some of those processes have outside some of those processes have outside some of those processes have outside rules. We call them laws, governance, rules. We call them laws, governance, rules. We call them laws, governance, compliance that I have to do. In compliance that I have to do. In compliance that I have to do. In Indiana, I have to do a certain thing Indiana, I have to do a certain thing Indiana, I have to do a certain thing for employees. So, the processes are for employees. So, the processes are for employees. So, the processes are both how I want my business to run and both how I want my business to run and both how I want my business to run and how it has to run. And the business is how it has to run. And the business is how it has to run. And the business is really just a collection of all these really just a collection of all these really just a collection of all these processes put together. Like, I'm just processes put together. Like, I'm just processes put together. Like, I'm just saying it's it's a totally different saying it's it's a totally different saying it's it's a totally different view from the sort of we have a system view from the sort of we have a system view from the sort of we have a system of record and a system of action or of record and a system of action or of record and a system of action or whatever. And I'm like, that's not how I whatever. And I'm like, that's not how I whatever. And I'm like, that's not how I think most businesses actually run, but think most businesses actually run, but think most businesses actually run, but it's often how we think about it. So, it's often how we think about it. So, it's often how we think about it. So, >> I totally I think that's a great >> I totally I think that's a great >> I totally I think that's a great framing. Um, like despite the fact that framing. Um, like despite the fact that framing. Um, like despite the fact that I love I love into it, it's like I love I love into it, it's like I love I love into it, it's like Turboax. Well, like the tax code is Turboax. Well, like the tax code is Turboax. Well, like the tax code is published, right? You can download all published, right? You can download all published, right? You can download all of these rules. It's highly of these rules. It's highly of these rules. It's highly deterministic and then your files are in deterministic and then your files are in deterministic and then your files are in your your like messy downloads folder your your like messy downloads folder your your like messy downloads folder and it's like make those two happen. In and it's like make those two happen. In and it's like make those two happen. In that case, it's like one of these that case, it's like one of these that case, it's like one of these bizarre situations where everything is bizarre situations where everything is bizarre situations where everything is actually transparent in terms of the actually transparent in terms of the actually transparent in terms of the processes. I think it's actually a quite processes. I think it's actually a quite processes. I think it's actually a quite rare situation where the edge cases are rare situation where the edge cases are rare situation where the edge cases are published in like maybe one place or published in like maybe one place or published in like maybe one place or maybe 50 places, but it's like, oh, you maybe 50 places, but it's like, oh, you maybe 50 places, but it's like, oh, you just there are 50 states in the United just there are 50 states in the United just there are 50 states in the United States of America. Each one has its own States of America. Each one has its own States of America. Each one has its own tax code. There's the federal tax tax code. There's the federal tax tax code. There's the federal tax system. They have a tax code. Go system. They have a tax code. Go system. They have a tax code. Go download that stuff and make it work. download that stuff and make it work. download that stuff and make it work. And there probably are still are edge And there probably are still are edge And there probably are still are edge cases and processes that you learn cases and processes that you learn cases and processes that you learn versus like the real world normally versus like the real world normally versus like the real world normally isn't as neat as that. It's just like isn't as neat as that. It's just like isn't as neat as that. It's just like you learn by doing. And a business has you learn by doing. And a business has you learn by doing. And a business has value. I mean there are a lot of value. I mean there are a lot of value. I mean there are a lot of businesses where theoretically I mean businesses where theoretically I mean businesses where theoretically I mean this is where it's like you would say this is where it's like you would say this is where it's like you would say like all the assets leave every night like all the assets leave every night like all the assets leave every night because they go down the elevator and because they go down the elevator and because they go down the elevator and they go home like that's that's like they go home like that's that's like they go home like that's that's like more knowledge economy type things but more knowledge economy type things but more knowledge economy type things but actually these businesses do have value actually these businesses do have value actually these businesses do have value like you know does McKenzie have value like you know does McKenzie have value like you know does McKenzie have value outside of all of the employees that outside of all of the employees that outside of all of the employees that work there because that's a knowledge work there because that's a knowledge work there because that's a knowledge economy business where they produce economy business where they produce economy business where they produce outcomes and you know it's tied to labor outcomes and you know it's tied to labor outcomes and you know it's tied to labor it's not like a product but still like it's not like a product but still like it's not like a product but still like they're they're probably they probably they're they're probably they probably they're they're probably they probably have some top secret handbook that they have some top secret handbook that they have some top secret handbook that they use around how do they hire people how use around how do they hire people how use around how do they hire people how do they fire people how do they produce do they fire people how do they produce do they fire people how do they produce uh outcomes for clients and so on and so uh outcomes for clients and so on and so uh outcomes for clients and so on and so forth. I haven't seen it and that's forth. I haven't seen it and that's forth. I haven't seen it and that's actually great that I haven't seen it actually great that I haven't seen it actually great that I haven't seen it because I can't replicate it and it's because I can't replicate it and it's because I can't replicate it and it's probably been built over a hundred probably been built over a hundred probably been built over a hundred years. Um and like you know what is it years. Um and like you know what is it years. Um and like you know what is it that non-digital non-software products that non-digital non-software products that non-digital non-software products do? What is their product? Their product do? What is their product? Their product do? What is their product? Their product is the is the accumulated knowledge from is the is the accumulated knowledge from is the is the accumulated knowledge from potentially centuries or decades. I mean potentially centuries or decades. I mean potentially centuries or decades. I mean I I love going to Japan and you see like I I love going to Japan and you see like I I love going to Japan and you see like oh this noodle store has been around oh this noodle store has been around oh this noodle store has been around since like 1587 and it's like yeah since like 1587 and it's like yeah since like 1587 and it's like yeah there's probably something going on there's probably something going on there's probably something going on there. It's like this accumulated set of there. It's like this accumulated set of there. It's like this accumulated set of uh kind of culture and knowledge and and uh kind of culture and knowledge and and uh kind of culture and knowledge and and knowhow besides, you know, here's the knowhow besides, you know, here's the knowhow besides, you know, here's the recipe list for for making noodles. recipe list for for making noodles. recipe list for for making noodles. Maybe a bad example because making Maybe a bad example because making Maybe a bad example because making noodles is a little bit easier. Probably noodles is a little bit easier. Probably noodles is a little bit easier. Probably not as many edge cases. I don't know. not as many edge cases. I don't know. not as many edge cases. I don't know. Maybe there are edge cases. Like what Maybe there are edge cases. Like what Maybe there are edge cases. Like what happens if you're if you run out of happens if you're if you run out of happens if you're if you run out of flour? What do you do? What how did the flour? What do you do? What how did the flour? What do you do? What how did the noodle shop survive the great flower noodle shop survive the great flower noodle shop survive the great flower shortage of 1623? you know, they they shortage of 1623? you know, they they shortage of 1623? you know, they they they probably did something and that's they probably did something and that's they probably did something and that's like accumulated in this like secret like accumulated in this like secret like accumulated in this like secret book of knowhow as opposed to I'm just book of knowhow as opposed to I'm just book of knowhow as opposed to I'm just going to replicate something where all going to replicate something where all going to replicate something where all of the rules are published to the public of the rules are published to the public of the rules are published to the public >> or maybe >> or maybe >> or maybe like in it. Again, this is where I think like in it. Again, this is where I think like in it. Again, this is where I think it's so fascinating. It forces us to it's so fascinating. It forces us to it's so fascinating. It forces us to rethink our businesses, right? Is intu rethink our businesses, right? Is intu rethink our businesses, right? Is intu filling out the tax code for you or does filling out the tax code for you or does filling out the tax code for you or does intuit know the tax code as well as intuit know the tax code as well as intuit know the tax code as well as anyone else can? What they're helping is anyone else can? What they're helping is anyone else can? What they're helping is you to take your life data, your you to take your life data, your you to take your life data, your understanding, your they're asking you understanding, your they're asking you understanding, your they're asking you the right questions into it's almost the right questions into it's almost the right questions into it's almost more like a McKenzie. It can be more like a McKenzie. It can be more like a McKenzie. It can be considered that way. It's their process considered that way. It's their process considered that way. It's their process and their special ability is how to ask and their special ability is how to ask and their special ability is how to ask you the right questions to fill out the you the right questions to fill out the you the right questions to fill out the tax code rather than the filling out of tax code rather than the filling out of tax code rather than the filling out of the tax code. the tax code. the tax code. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. And all these businesses are >> Right. And all these businesses are >> Right. And all these businesses are having to look at maybe I have 50 having to look at maybe I have 50 having to look at maybe I have 50 processes internally that I think are my processes internally that I think are my processes internally that I think are my secret source and unique. Maybe only 20 secret source and unique. Maybe only 20 secret source and unique. Maybe only 20 of them are, but now I have to really of them are, but now I have to really of them are, but now I have to really consider which of those processes are consider which of those processes are consider which of those processes are actually unique and which which are not actually unique and which which are not actually unique and which which are not because we haven't had to think about it because we haven't had to think about it because we haven't had to think about it in that in that manner before. in that in that manner before. in that in that manner before. >> I think it's also kind of a question of >> I think it's also kind of a question of >> I think it's also kind of a question of how like there's this Goldilock zone how like there's this Goldilock zone how like there's this Goldilock zone probably of like is it worth doing probably of like is it worth doing probably of like is it worth doing yourself versus not like if you take yourself versus not like if you take yourself versus not like if you take this kind of like third not third rail this kind of like third not third rail this kind of like third not third rail but kind of this independent variable of but kind of this independent variable of but kind of this independent variable of should I now claude code myself cla code should I now claude code myself cla code should I now claude code myself cla code myself some X. Well, if it's like 99% of myself some X. Well, if it's like 99% of myself some X. Well, if it's like 99% of my cost and like my business is going to my cost and like my business is going to my cost and like my business is going to fail because this evil company is fail because this evil company is fail because this evil company is overcharging me for software, it might overcharging me for software, it might overcharging me for software, it might make sense. If it's like a dollar a make sense. If it's like a dollar a make sense. If it's like a dollar a year, it probably doesn't make sense. year, it probably doesn't make sense. year, it probably doesn't make sense. And then not all systems of record are And then not all systems of record are And then not all systems of record are the same. So like, you know, I kind of the same. So like, you know, I kind of the same. So like, you know, I kind of think of a system of record as like the think of a system of record as like the think of a system of record as like the atomic unit of something for a business. atomic unit of something for a business. atomic unit of something for a business. Like it could be uh calendars are a Like it could be uh calendars are a Like it could be uh calendars are a system of record for time. Um or I don't system of record for time. Um or I don't system of record for time. Um or I don't know, ERP is a system of record for know, ERP is a system of record for know, ERP is a system of record for inventory. like you have all these inventory. like you have all these inventory. like you have all these different systems of record, but um like different systems of record, but um like different systems of record, but um like the the example that I was giving the the example that I was giving the the example that I was giving somebody is if I have an office in Miami somebody is if I have an office in Miami somebody is if I have an office in Miami that I don't go to very often and that I don't go to very often and that I don't go to very often and there's a system of record for there's a system of record for there's a system of record for conference rooms. There is a system of conference rooms. There is a system of conference rooms. There is a system of record for conference rooms. It's like record for conference rooms. It's like record for conference rooms. It's like Google calendar. Like am I willing to Google calendar. Like am I willing to Google calendar. Like am I willing to change that system of record? Yeah, change that system of record? Yeah, change that system of record? Yeah, because it's like my Miami office, they because it's like my Miami office, they because it's like my Miami office, they only go once a year. Like who cares? Um only go once a year. Like who cares? Um only go once a year. Like who cares? Um versus like this is something that versus like this is something that versus like this is something that touches my revenue. It's not that touches my revenue. It's not that touches my revenue. It's not that expensive. Um, am I really going to grow expensive. Um, am I really going to grow expensive. Um, am I really going to grow my own food for something where I mean my own food for something where I mean my own food for something where I mean actually this is the cool thing about actually this is the cool thing about actually this is the cool thing about like farming, right? If you kind of take like farming, right? If you kind of take like farming, right? If you kind of take that metaphor, it's actually a lot that metaphor, it's actually a lot that metaphor, it's actually a lot cheaper to go to a restaurant. If I just cheaper to go to a restaurant. If I just cheaper to go to a restaurant. If I just want like one hamburger versus like get want like one hamburger versus like get want like one hamburger versus like get myself a cow and feed the cow and wait, myself a cow and feed the cow and wait, myself a cow and feed the cow and wait, it's just a lot of food is actually it's just a lot of food is actually it's just a lot of food is actually cheaper if you consume it in a cheaper if you consume it in a cheaper if you consume it in a restaurant because of comparative restaurant because of comparative restaurant because of comparative advantage and economies of scale. So advantage and economies of scale. So advantage and economies of scale. So there probably are systems of record there probably are systems of record there probably are systems of record where it's like there's some where where it's like there's some where where it's like there's some where outside of any of the factors that we're outside of any of the factors that we're outside of any of the factors that we're talking about, they're more susceptible talking about, they're more susceptible talking about, they're more susceptible just because they overpriced or they're just because they overpriced or they're just because they overpriced or they're just not as valuable in terms of what it just not as valuable in terms of what it just not as valuable in terms of what it is that they're storing and keeping is that they're storing and keeping is that they're storing and keeping records for. I mean like Carta keeps records for. I mean like Carta keeps records for. I mean like Carta keeps track of cap tables for a lot of track of cap tables for a lot of track of cap tables for a lot of companies. How often do you access your companies. How often do you access your companies. How often do you access your cap table? Not very often, but it's cap table? Not very often, but it's cap table? Not very often, but it's super valuable. You can't f that up, super valuable. You can't f that up, super valuable. You can't f that up, right? Like it's I'd probably rather use right? Like it's I'd probably rather use right? Like it's I'd probably rather use Carter for that than like and they only Carter for that than like and they only Carter for that than like and they only they don't charge me that much money. they don't charge me that much money. they don't charge me that much money. like sure I'll use Carta. Um, and it's like sure I'll use Carta. Um, and it's like sure I'll use Carta. Um, and it's not it's not like a daily use kind of not it's not like a daily use kind of not it's not like a daily use kind of product. So, it's not even like that product. So, it's not even like that product. So, it's not even like that dimension. dimension. dimension. >> I think the vibe coding thing is so >> I think the vibe coding thing is so >> I think the vibe coding thing is so fascinating to me because yeah, so fascinating to me because yeah, so fascinating to me because yeah, so someone in software like oh people are someone in software like oh people are someone in software like oh people are just going to vibe code all these just going to vibe code all these just going to vibe code all these replacements to tools. I'm like the idea replacements to tools. I'm like the idea replacements to tools. I'm like the idea I would vibe code my own workday and I would vibe code my own workday and I would vibe code my own workday and then run it is terrifying like have some then run it is terrifying like have some then run it is terrifying like have some really smart engineers. Firstly, I have really smart engineers. Firstly, I have really smart engineers. Firstly, I have other stuff for them to do. Secondly, other stuff for them to do. Secondly, other stuff for them to do. Secondly, I'm like wait I feel like that has way I'm like wait I feel like that has way I'm like wait I feel like that has way more downside than upside for me. more downside than upside for me. more downside than upside for me. However, and so that's the sort of However, and so that's the sort of However, and so that's the sort of replacement theory. replacement theory. replacement theory. There is a great gain we are seeing There is a great gain we are seeing There is a great gain we are seeing internally in extensibility of software internally in extensibility of software internally in extensibility of software using things like VI coding. So most of using things like VI coding. So most of using things like VI coding. So most of these applications are highly these applications are highly these applications are highly configurable, customizable, you know, in configurable, customizable, you know, in configurable, customizable, you know, in our case all the way through to true our case all the way through to true our case all the way through to true extensibility. You can write pieces of extensibility. You can write pieces of extensibility. You can write pieces of software, apps that run on top of our software, apps that run on top of our software, apps that run on top of our platform that have all sorts of platform that have all sorts of platform that have all sorts of different areas, and lots of customers different areas, and lots of customers different areas, and lots of customers do, but those customers need to put a do, but those customers need to put a do, but those customers need to put a technology team on doing that job. Their technology team on doing that job. Their technology team on doing that job. Their ability to quote unquote vibe code ability to quote unquote vibe code ability to quote unquote vibe code extensions, customizations, very extensions, customizations, very extensions, customizations, very tailored applications to their very tailored applications to their very tailored applications to their very specific use case of something. I want specific use case of something. I want specific use case of something. I want an app for the Miami team to do an app for the Miami team to do an app for the Miami team to do conference room booking and Miami has conference room booking and Miami has conference room booking and Miami has some weird HR policy. So that app needs some weird HR policy. So that app needs some weird HR policy. So that app needs to look at workday and this and that. to look at workday and this and that. to look at workday and this and that. It's used by 20 people. I probably It's used by 20 people. I probably It's used by 20 people. I probably wouldn't have been able to afford to put wouldn't have been able to afford to put wouldn't have been able to afford to put the IT team internally on building that the IT team internally on building that the IT team internally on building that because the bill would have been too because the bill would have been too because the bill would have been too big. But now maybe I can build that, big. But now maybe I can build that, big. But now maybe I can build that, right? But that uses workday's data and right? But that uses workday's data and right? But that uses workday's data and rules around the world underneath. But rules around the world underneath. But rules around the world underneath. But it it just gives me a very custom it it just gives me a very custom it it just gives me a very custom interface for I don't know the person on interface for I don't know the person on interface for I don't know the person on the front desk in Miami to do something the front desk in Miami to do something the front desk in Miami to do something very specific to what they need. That is very specific to what they need. That is very specific to what they need. That is super powerful, but it's not a super powerful, but it's not a super powerful, but it's not a replacement for work. Poor workday. I replacement for work. Poor workday. I replacement for work. Poor workday. I feel like Anneil is like feel like Anneil is like feel like Anneil is like the the butt of a lot of these the the butt of a lot of these the the butt of a lot of these conceptual examples. That's really conceptual examples. That's really conceptual examples. That's really powerful, right? That actually makes powerful, right? That actually makes powerful, right? That actually makes >> workday stickier in the enterprise and >> workday stickier in the enterprise and >> workday stickier in the enterprise and more valuable because you can build all more valuable because you can build all more valuable because you can build all these applications on top, which is the these applications on top, which is the these applications on top, which is the power of AI and vibe coding and power of AI and vibe coding and power of AI and vibe coding and creativity to make it more tailored for creativity to make it more tailored for creativity to make it more tailored for what I need. But we're going to have to what I need. But we're going to have to what I need. But we're going to have to be really careful about these sort of be really careful about these sort of be really careful about these sort of layers of stability and rules and layers of stability and rules and layers of stability and rules and process versus customization, right? And process versus customization, right? And process versus customization, right? And you could argue, I don't know, open you could argue, I don't know, open you could argue, I don't know, open cllor and stuff is an example of cllor and stuff is an example of cllor and stuff is an example of building very personal apps just for me. building very personal apps just for me. building very personal apps just for me. Most of those people aren't software Most of those people aren't software Most of those people aren't software developers. They're building apps that developers. They're building apps that developers. They're building apps that work just for them on top of their Gmail work just for them on top of their Gmail work just for them on top of their Gmail or something else, right? But it still or something else, right? But it still or something else, right? But it still uses Gmail as a Rails. They still go to uses Gmail as a Rails. They still go to uses Gmail as a Rails. They still go to Gmail to read their email and do their Gmail to read their email and do their Gmail to read their email and do their email, but they build some specific email, but they build some specific email, but they build some specific thing for themselves to solve a problem thing for themselves to solve a problem thing for themselves to solve a problem they have and probably only they have. A they have and probably only they have. A they have and probably only they have. A couple of them maybe turn into couple of them maybe turn into couple of them maybe turn into companies. Most of them are just solving companies. Most of them are just solving companies. Most of them are just solving some stuff that they needed themselves. some stuff that they needed themselves. some stuff that they needed themselves. That's it. And that's great. That's That's it. And that's great. That's That's it. And that's great. That's really powerful. really powerful. really powerful. >> That's why I'm curious about um maybe >> That's why I'm curious about um maybe >> That's why I'm curious about um maybe I'd call it my bucket too of this I'd call it my bucket too of this I'd call it my bucket too of this pricing fairness where the back end is pricing fairness where the back end is pricing fairness where the back end is not the front end. So if you think of not the front end. So if you think of not the front end. So if you think of Salesforce, they charge for licenses. Salesforce, they charge for licenses. Salesforce, they charge for licenses. Like I think we have 600 people at our Like I think we have 600 people at our Like I think we have 600 people at our firm. We might have 600 Salesforce firm. We might have 600 Salesforce firm. We might have 600 Salesforce licenses. I'd never logged into licenses. I'd never logged into licenses. I'd never logged into Salesforce, Salesforce, Salesforce, but I bet we pay for me. But I I use the but I bet we pay for me. But I I use the but I bet we pay for me. But I I use the output of it sometimes because it output of it sometimes because it output of it sometimes because it actually is the system of record. Not to actually is the system of record. Not to actually is the system of record. Not to overuse that term, but it stores like overuse that term, but it stores like overuse that term, but it stores like all of our relationships, but I am like all of our relationships, but I am like all of our relationships, but I am like part of a table in a relational database part of a table in a relational database part of a table in a relational database of it's like, you know, I'm user ID of it's like, you know, I'm user ID of it's like, you know, I'm user ID number 422 here and then whenever I meet number 422 here and then whenever I meet number 422 here and then whenever I meet with a company, like, oh well, like user with a company, like, oh well, like user with a company, like, oh well, like user ID 422 is matched in this other ID 422 is matched in this other ID 422 is matched in this other database, but we really just want to pay database, but we really just want to pay database, but we really just want to pay for a database. So, like in a world for a database. So, like in a world for a database. So, like in a world where the front end is not the back end. where the front end is not the back end. where the front end is not the back end. I mean, that's that's the thing. It's I mean, that's that's the thing. It's I mean, that's that's the thing. It's like for workday, I kind of think like for workday, I kind of think like for workday, I kind of think they've come up with a very clever they've come up with a very clever they've come up with a very clever pricing trick. Um, trick trick pricing trick. Um, trick trick pricing trick. Um, trick trick undersells it. I mean, I think it's a undersells it. I mean, I think it's a undersells it. I mean, I think it's a it's a it's a powerful pricing paradigm it's a it's a powerful pricing paradigm it's a it's a powerful pricing paradigm that feels fair. It's like the more that feels fair. It's like the more that feels fair. It's like the more employees that you have. And why is that employees that you have. And why is that employees that you have. And why is that fair? Because GE has more profits than a fair? Because GE has more profits than a fair? Because GE has more profits than a 10 person company. G is going to pay 10 person company. G is going to pay 10 person company. G is going to pay more for this thing. It's still a drop more for this thing. It's still a drop more for this thing. It's still a drop in the bucket. It's totally within the in the bucket. It's totally within the in the bucket. It's totally within the Goldilock zone of pricing. And I don't Goldilock zone of pricing. And I don't Goldilock zone of pricing. And I don't think anybody's going to vodka that. think anybody's going to vodka that. think anybody's going to vodka that. They're going to add all this AI They're going to add all this AI They're going to add all this AI revenue, but most importantly, their revenue, but most importantly, their revenue, but most importantly, their pricing feels fair. Whereas for these pricing feels fair. Whereas for these pricing feels fair. Whereas for these things where it's like the front end is things where it's like the front end is things where it's like the front end is somewhat divorced from the back end. somewhat divorced from the back end. somewhat divorced from the back end. that that that one is I I I don't know that that that one is I I I don't know that that that one is I I I don't know what's the fair what's the fair format what's the fair what's the fair format what's the fair what's the fair format for pricing like what will happen to for pricing like what will happen to for pricing like what will happen to software pricing and and obviously like software pricing and and obviously like software pricing and and obviously like if nobody's going to vibe code their own if nobody's going to vibe code their own if nobody's going to vibe code their own thing and there's not going to be any thing and there's not going to be any thing and there's not going to be any competition then pricing will stay competition then pricing will stay competition then pricing will stay unchanged but you can imagine a world unchanged but you can imagine a world unchanged but you can imagine a world where people are building things on top where people are building things on top where people are building things on top to read from the database right because to read from the database right because to read from the database right because I mean a system of record has a database I mean a system of record has a database I mean a system of record has a database represent that that's like the the represent that that's like the the represent that that's like the the abstraction layer beneath everything abstraction layer beneath everything abstraction layer beneath everything will the pricing will there be any will the pricing will there be any will the pricing will there be any pricing pressure on on any of these pricing pressure on on any of these pricing pressure on on any of these categories categories categories And I for me I think it's like if the And I for me I think it's like if the And I for me I think it's like if the front end is not the back end there's front end is not the back end there's front end is not the back end there's more susceptibility than if they're like more susceptibility than if they're like more susceptibility than if they're like very very tightly tw like intertwined very very tightly tw like intertwined very very tightly tw like intertwined like QuickBooks is used by small like QuickBooks is used by small like QuickBooks is used by small businesses they don't have seats it's businesses they don't have seats it's businesses they don't have seats it's like the owner of the business just logs like the owner of the business just logs like the owner of the business just logs into QuickBooks. Um so the front end into QuickBooks. Um so the front end into QuickBooks. Um so the front end kind of is the back end versus you know kind of is the back end versus you know kind of is the back end versus you know Salesforce where you can imagine like Salesforce where you can imagine like Salesforce where you can imagine like nobody gets rid of Salesforce but maybe nobody gets rid of Salesforce but maybe nobody gets rid of Salesforce but maybe they have fewer seats because they need they have fewer seats because they need they have fewer seats because they need fewer frontends but they really still fewer frontends but they really still fewer frontends but they really still need the back end desperately. they're need the back end desperately. they're need the back end desperately. they're not going to go, you know, they're not not going to go, you know, they're not not going to go, you know, they're not going to eliminate or do anything with going to eliminate or do anything with going to eliminate or do anything with the back end. the back end. the back end. >> It depends on always like I I think your >> It depends on always like I I think your >> It depends on always like I I think your fairness and optics in pricing are fairness and optics in pricing are fairness and optics in pricing are really really important. People really really important. People really really important. People understanding what they pay for and feel understanding what they pay for and feel understanding what they pay for and feel like what they pay for is like what they pay for is like what they pay for is uh uh uh relates to their usage in some broad relates to their usage in some broad relates to their usage in some broad way. Right? I I would say that a 10,000 way. Right? I I would say that a 10,000 way. Right? I I would say that a 10,000 person company paying for workday, person company paying for workday, person company paying for workday, the 20,000 person company probably plays the 20,000 person company probably plays the 20,000 person company probably plays twice as much plus some discount because twice as much plus some discount because twice as much plus some discount because they're buying more because they're they're buying more because they're they're buying more because they're generally have twice as much complexity generally have twice as much complexity generally have twice as much complexity of stuff and they see that as fair. of stuff and they see that as fair. of stuff and they see that as fair. That's what you mean by like it seems That's what you mean by like it seems That's what you mean by like it seems reasonable that I would pay by employee reasonable that I would pay by employee reasonable that I would pay by employee for my HR system. Um I think the for my HR system. Um I think the for my HR system. Um I think the question with a lot of these things is question with a lot of these things is question with a lot of these things is you know what what processes when we you know what what processes when we you know what what processes when we talk about front end and back end as an talk about front end and back end as an talk about front end and back end as an example it's not a database it's a example it's not a database it's a example it's not a database it's a database plus a set of processes we used database plus a set of processes we used database plus a set of processes we used to call it business logic when I was to call it business logic when I was to call it business logic when I was growing up that those business logics growing up that those business logics growing up that those business logics are not irrelevant so in the world of are not irrelevant so in the world of are not irrelevant so in the world of why does a business have them because it why does a business have them because it why does a business have them because it runs as a collection of processes and runs as a collection of processes and runs as a collection of processes and they want standardization of process to they want standardization of process to they want standardization of process to some level right so that two teams work some level right so that two teams work some level right so that two teams work the same way so someone can manage them, the same way so someone can manage them, the same way so someone can manage them, understand them, track output. You know, understand them, track output. You know, understand them, track output. You know, I don't know if I have a bunch of car I don't know if I have a bunch of car I don't know if I have a bunch of car factories, I want to track the total factories, I want to track the total factories, I want to track the total amount of cars in and out consistently amount of cars in and out consistently amount of cars in and out consistently across them. um the business logic where across them. um the business logic where across them. um the business logic where it gets baked in is somewhat where the it gets baked in is somewhat where the it gets baked in is somewhat where the value is because you may need and again value is because you may need and again value is because you may need and again maybe A16Z is not a great uh example of maybe A16Z is not a great uh example of maybe A16Z is not a great uh example of a Salesforce customer right that that a Salesforce customer right that that a Salesforce customer right that that actually has a huge amount of sales actually has a huge amount of sales actually has a huge amount of sales going on in terms of traditionally um going on in terms of traditionally um going on in terms of traditionally um the processes you bake into that for the processes you bake into that for the processes you bake into that for your sales teams are totally valuable to your sales teams are totally valuable to your sales teams are totally valuable to you and you would think that's a fair you and you would think that's a fair you and you would think that's a fair way to pay the question is your sales way to pay the question is your sales way to pay the question is your sales adjacent teams, the sort of collaborator adjacent teams, the sort of collaborator adjacent teams, the sort of collaborator rather than the core user. How much do rather than the core user. How much do rather than the core user. How much do they need those processes and how much they need those processes and how much they need those processes and how much do they not? So, I don't know. I assume do they not? So, I don't know. I assume do they not? So, I don't know. I assume Salesforce Sales Cloud I guess we're Salesforce Sales Cloud I guess we're Salesforce Sales Cloud I guess we're talking about SalesCloud has an MCP talking about SalesCloud has an MCP talking about SalesCloud has an MCP server. That MCP server doesn't go to server. That MCP server doesn't go to server. That MCP server doesn't go to the database. It probably involves your the database. It probably involves your the database. It probably involves your processes and the rules on the way processes and the rules on the way processes and the rules on the way through. So, the question is someone through. So, the question is someone through. So, the question is someone sells adjacent, I don't know, they're in sells adjacent, I don't know, they're in sells adjacent, I don't know, they're in marketing or they're in customer success marketing or they're in customer success marketing or they're in customer success or something like this. if they need or something like this. if they need or something like this. if they need those processes and governance and those processes and governance and those processes and governance and controls and rules and you know hey we controls and rules and you know hey we controls and rules and you know hey we only do X for customers in Japan we do Y only do X for customers in Japan we do Y only do X for customers in Japan we do Y for customers in this area that sort of for customers in this area that sort of for customers in this area that sort of stuff even their MCP server is going to stuff even their MCP server is going to stuff even their MCP server is going to need an account whether the customer need an account whether the customer need an account whether the customer thinks that's fair that's a different thinks that's fair that's a different thinks that's fair that's a different question right it's just the challenge question right it's just the challenge question right it's just the challenge of like how does that get priced I'd of like how does that get priced I'd of like how does that get priced I'd tell you because we get this all the tell you because we get this all the tell you because we get this all the time talking about consumption based time talking about consumption based time talking about consumption based pricing usage based pricing outcome pricing usage based pricing outcome pricing usage based pricing outcome based pricing there are a lot of based pricing there are a lot of based pricing there are a lot of categories where that makes sense categories where that makes sense categories where that makes sense I definitely do not believe that it will I definitely do not believe that it will I definitely do not believe that it will be the majority priority pricing manner be the majority priority pricing manner be the majority priority pricing manner for all software or all SASbased for all software or all SASbased for all software or all SASbased software because when you talk to software because when you talk to software because when you talk to customers they hate it. They really hate customers they hate it. They really hate customers they hate it. They really hate it where asterisk it is not related to it where asterisk it is not related to it where asterisk it is not related to the value they consider that they put the value they consider that they put the value they consider that they put in. So I have usage based pricing for in. So I have usage based pricing for in. So I have usage based pricing for Splunk. If I send them twice as many Splunk. If I send them twice as many Splunk. If I send them twice as many logs I pay more money. I get it. But the logs I pay more money. I get it. But the logs I pay more money. I get it. But the logging is up to me, right? I can log logging is up to me, right? I can log logging is up to me, right? I can log more or I can log less. I can yell at more or I can log less. I can yell at more or I can log less. I can yell at teams where I'm like, "Hey, how come teams where I'm like, "Hey, how come teams where I'm like, "Hey, how come you're logging so much? This is you're logging so much? This is you're logging so much? This is expensive." And you know, are you using expensive." And you know, are you using expensive." And you know, are you using these logs? I can control the amount of these logs? I can control the amount of these logs? I can control the amount of data I put in. Same with storage and S3 data I put in. Same with storage and S3 data I put in. Same with storage and S3 or something canonically. I put in a or something canonically. I put in a or something canonically. I put in a gigabyte, I put in two gigabytes. Fine. gigabyte, I put in two gigabytes. Fine. gigabyte, I put in two gigabytes. Fine. Right? The problem is those are Right? The problem is those are Right? The problem is those are relatively transferable and controllable relatively transferable and controllable relatively transferable and controllable by me as a customer. A lot of the by me as a customer. A lot of the by me as a customer. A lot of the examples people give of either outcome examples people give of either outcome examples people give of either outcome or consumption based pricing are not in or consumption based pricing are not in or consumption based pricing are not in control by me as a customer and not control by me as a customer and not control by me as a customer and not exchangeable. So the AI token world, the exchangeable. So the AI token world, the exchangeable. So the AI token world, the AI credit world is really, really AI credit world is really, really AI credit world is really, really difficult for customers because they're difficult for customers because they're difficult for customers because they're like, I don't really understand what like, I don't really understand what like, I don't really understand what this casino token you've given, casino this casino token you've given, casino this casino token you've given, casino chip you've given me is, right? I can chip you've given me is, right? I can chip you've given me is, right? I can take a gigabyte from AWS and go put it take a gigabyte from AWS and go put it take a gigabyte from AWS and go put it in Azure and I know how much they're in Azure and I know how much they're in Azure and I know how much they're going to charge me because the gigabyte going to charge me because the gigabyte going to charge me because the gigabyte is kind of constant. When I have these is kind of constant. When I have these is kind of constant. When I have these AI credits, I'm like, I I don't know if AI credits, I'm like, I I don't know if AI credits, I'm like, I I don't know if your credits are the same as yours or your credits are the same as yours or your credits are the same as yours or the same as yours. And by the way, you the same as yours. And by the way, you the same as yours. And by the way, you keep adding features keep adding features keep adding features which chew up my credits because my which chew up my credits because my which chew up my credits because my users use them. And I'm like, wait, I I users use them. And I'm like, wait, I I users use them. And I'm like, wait, I I don't know what they're doing with those don't know what they're doing with those don't know what they're doing with those credits. Like, it's not the company credits. Like, it's not the company credits. Like, it's not the company choosing to use them. It's the vendor choosing to use them. It's the vendor choosing to use them. It's the vendor adding like features that make the adding like features that make the adding like features that make the software better that seem to just software better that seem to just software better that seem to just happen, right? I can 10x my customers happen, right? I can 10x my customers happen, right? I can 10x my customers credit usage overnight by adding a whole credit usage overnight by adding a whole credit usage overnight by adding a whole bunch of stuff like, "Hey, I built these bunch of stuff like, "Hey, I built these bunch of stuff like, "Hey, I built these great summaries for you." And they're great summaries for you." And they're great summaries for you." And they're like, "Wait, I didn't do that." So I like, "Wait, I didn't do that." So I like, "Wait, I didn't do that." So I think the outcome based usage when you think the outcome based usage when you think the outcome based usage when you talk to customers they want seats talk to customers they want seats talk to customers they want seats probably because today they understand probably because today they understand probably because today they understand it and secondly they've been burned by a it and secondly they've been burned by a it and secondly they've been burned by a lot of this consumption base that the lot of this consumption base that the lot of this consumption base that the bill just goes up massively and they're bill just goes up massively and they're bill just goes up massively and they're like wait how do I control this like wait how do I control this like wait how do I control this >> right will take some adjustment >> right will take some adjustment >> right will take some adjustment >> it will be certainly present in a lot of >> it will be certainly present in a lot of >> it will be certainly present in a lot of categories you know we have a bunch of categories you know we have a bunch of categories you know we have a bunch of areas of our business at Alassian that areas of our business at Alassian that areas of our business at Alassian that are you would argue consumption based are you would argue consumption based are you would argue consumption based pricing or literally just consumption pricing or literally just consumption pricing or literally just consumption based pricing but we try to stick to based pricing but we try to stick to based pricing but we try to stick to areas where customers do twice as much areas where customers do twice as much areas where customers do twice as much stuff they get twice as much value they stuff they get twice as much value they stuff they get twice as much value they pay twice twice as much money and it's pay twice twice as much money and it's pay twice twice as much money and it's in their control. A lot of these other in their control. A lot of these other in their control. A lot of these other things aren't in their control. And the things aren't in their control. And the things aren't in their control. And the last example of outcome based pricing is last example of outcome based pricing is last example of outcome based pricing is those outcomes are also dynamic. So the those outcomes are also dynamic. So the those outcomes are also dynamic. So the problem with say customer service where problem with say customer service where problem with say customer service where I've saved you, you know, you used to I've saved you, you know, you used to I've saved you, you know, you used to spend $20 on customer service. With our spend $20 on customer service. With our spend $20 on customer service. With our tool, you'll only spend 10. That's a tool, you'll only spend 10. That's a tool, you'll only spend 10. That's a great sales pitch in year one. In year great sales pitch in year one. In year great sales pitch in year one. In year two, the customer goes, "But I only two, the customer goes, "But I only two, the customer goes, "But I only spent 10. Now I want to spend five. spent 10. Now I want to spend five. spent 10. Now I want to spend five. Otherwise, you didn't deliver any Otherwise, you didn't deliver any Otherwise, you didn't deliver any value." And the vendor goes, "Well, if value." And the vendor goes, "Well, if value." And the vendor goes, "Well, if you took me out, you'd be spending 20." you took me out, you'd be spending 20." you took me out, you'd be spending 20." And it's like, wait, but I don't spend And it's like, wait, but I don't spend And it's like, wait, but I don't spend 20, I spend 10. So like my ability to 20, I spend 10. So like my ability to 20, I spend 10. So like my ability to save you money each year is difficult save you money each year is difficult save you money each year is difficult from an outcome basis, right? I'm from an outcome basis, right? I'm from an outcome basis, right? I'm eliminating tasks. eliminating tasks. eliminating tasks. >> I think also like from a sales >> I think also like from a sales >> I think also like from a sales perspective, um I I've started two perspective, um I I've started two perspective, um I I've started two payment companies and it was really I payment companies and it was really I payment companies and it was really I used to this is why I know Workday is I used to this is why I know Workday is I used to this is why I know Workday is I envied them and I would talk to my sales envied them and I would talk to my sales envied them and I would talk to my sales team about workday because they know team about workday because they know team about workday because they know from the outside in how much money they from the outside in how much money they from the outside in how much money they make from GE. They're like, "Okay, GE make from GE. They're like, "Okay, GE make from GE. They're like, "Okay, GE uses Peopleoft. They have 330,000 uses Peopleoft. They have 330,000 uses Peopleoft. They have 330,000 employees. Maybe we charge them $4 a employees. Maybe we charge them $4 a employees. Maybe we charge them $4 a month, but probably $5 per employee per month, but probably $5 per employee per month, but probably $5 per employee per month. This is how much money you make month. This is how much money you make month. This is how much money you make from that account. And it's so it's so from that account. And it's so it's so from that account. And it's so it's so much easier to scale a sales team if much easier to scale a sales team if much easier to scale a sales team if you're selling a software product or you're selling a software product or you're selling a software product or anything. By the way, if you know that anything. By the way, if you know that anything. By the way, if you know that company will pay us $3 million versus company will pay us $3 million versus company will pay us $3 million versus like, you know, we when we were starting like, you know, we when we were starting like, you know, we when we were starting a firm, we signed up 1800 Flowers. We a firm, we signed up 1800 Flowers. We a firm, we signed up 1800 Flowers. We have no idea how much we're gonna make have no idea how much we're gonna make have no idea how much we're gonna make from them. And it turned out like you from them. And it turned out like you from them. And it turned out like you know what really made the business work? know what really made the business work? know what really made the business work? Casper the mattress company. It's like Casper the mattress company. It's like Casper the mattress company. It's like what? Like this stupid m like but it's what? Like this stupid m like but it's what? Like this stupid m like but it's like you just don't know and you think like you just don't know and you think like you just don't know and you think like you get like a big like we got like you get like a big like we got like you get like a big like we got Walmart didn't really work out that well Walmart didn't really work out that well Walmart didn't really work out that well in the beginning we get Casper the in the beginning we get Casper the in the beginning we get Casper the mattress company. Oh my god incredible. mattress company. Oh my god incredible. mattress company. Oh my god incredible. workday has the pred it's predictability workday has the pred it's predictability workday has the pred it's predictability in both directions right it's in both directions right it's in both directions right it's predictability for the spender of the predictability for the spender of the predictability for the spender of the money which is the customer but it's money which is the customer but it's money which is the customer but it's also the predictability for the also the predictability for the also the predictability for the management team knowing that you should management team knowing that you should management team knowing that you should spend your time trying to sign up GE and spend your time trying to sign up GE and spend your time trying to sign up GE and not sign up a 10person company because not sign up a 10person company because not sign up a 10person company because GE is bigger than the 10erson company GE is bigger than the 10erson company GE is bigger than the 10erson company whereas it's crazy in internet land whereas it's crazy in internet land whereas it's crazy in internet land where it's like Stripe might make more where it's like Stripe might make more where it's like Stripe might make more money from a 10erson company than GE and money from a 10erson company than GE and money from a 10erson company than GE and I guess you you could get to like higher I guess you you could get to like higher I guess you you could get to like higher levels of predictability there but like levels of predictability there but like levels of predictability there but like when you have outcome based pricing or when you have outcome based pricing or when you have outcome based pricing or consumption based pricing or something. consumption based pricing or something. consumption based pricing or something. I mean consumption based pricing is not I mean consumption based pricing is not I mean consumption based pricing is not bad per se but if you don't know from bad per se but if you don't know from bad per se but if you don't know from the outside in how much you can make the outside in how much you can make the outside in how much you can make from an account it just becomes from an account it just becomes from an account it just becomes exponentially harder to scale a sales exponentially harder to scale a sales exponentially harder to scale a sales team a scales a sales and marketing team team a scales a sales and marketing team team a scales a sales and marketing team because you just as an entrepreneur one because you just as an entrepreneur one because you just as an entrepreneur one thing I want to go back to sort of dealt thing I want to go back to sort of dealt thing I want to go back to sort of dealt with how you guys are adapting in this with how you guys are adapting in this with how you guys are adapting in this era c can you share more about the the era c can you share more about the the era c can you share more about the the biggest ways in which that's manifested biggest ways in which that's manifested biggest ways in which that's manifested for you and you know h how it's made you for you and you know h how it's made you for you and you know h how it's made you you change your business you change your business you change your business >> look I think the way that we think about >> look I think the way that we think about >> look I think the way that we think about it is um it is um it is um We look, we sell collaboration tools We look, we sell collaboration tools We look, we sell collaboration tools that solve human collaboration problems, that solve human collaboration problems, that solve human collaboration problems, right? In lots of different areas, right? In lots of different areas, right? In lots of different areas, service teams, service teams, service teams, broad business teams, HR, finance, broad business teams, HR, finance, broad business teams, HR, finance, software teams, like lots of different software teams, like lots of different software teams, like lots of different types of teams by different sets of apps types of teams by different sets of apps types of teams by different sets of apps from us, collections and sets of apps. from us, collections and sets of apps. from us, collections and sets of apps. Fundamentally, they're all collaboration Fundamentally, they're all collaboration Fundamentally, they're all collaboration problems that involve a lot of text. So, problems that involve a lot of text. So, problems that involve a lot of text. So, this is really good for us. What are this is really good for us. What are this is really good for us. What are those people doing is probably the those people doing is probably the those people doing is probably the important part, right? The technology important part, right? The technology important part, right? The technology world often runs to we're going to world often runs to we're going to world often runs to we're going to reinvent everything and that's the way reinvent everything and that's the way reinvent everything and that's the way of the future. And that generally is of the future. And that generally is of the future. And that generally is true in the medium to long arc of time. true in the medium to long arc of time. true in the medium to long arc of time. Our challenge is always we have a lot of Our challenge is always we have a lot of Our challenge is always we have a lot of customers that work in today's manner customers that work in today's manner customers that work in today's manner today's workflows in today's set of apps today's workflows in today's set of apps today's workflows in today's set of apps and they're not they're very smart. They and they're not they're very smart. They and they're not they're very smart. They want to get to tomorrow but they also want to get to tomorrow but they also want to get to tomorrow but they also have to move a lot of people. So when have to move a lot of people. So when have to move a lot of people. So when we're building AI features and I can we're building AI features and I can we're building AI features and I can give examples of any of these um we need give examples of any of these um we need give examples of any of these um we need to understand what that technology is, to understand what that technology is, to understand what that technology is, how it can help us. That's how we think how it can help us. That's how we think how it can help us. That's how we think about it firstly. Secondly, what about it firstly. Secondly, what about it firstly. Secondly, what fundamental platform componentry do we fundamental platform componentry do we fundamental platform componentry do we need to build for whatever that future need to build for whatever that future need to build for whatever that future will be because this stuff's will be because this stuff's will be because this stuff's accelerating so fast, right? So that's accelerating so fast, right? So that's accelerating so fast, right? So that's how we got to our AI gateway and the how we got to our AI gateway and the how we got to our AI gateway and the teamwork graph and the enterprise teamwork graph and the enterprise teamwork graph and the enterprise compliance and controls. You have to compliance and controls. You have to compliance and controls. You have to separate that out from the features separate that out from the features separate that out from the features you're building for customers in a given you're building for customers in a given you're building for customers in a given app. Then have to build features for app. Then have to build features for app. Then have to build features for customers that they use, right? So where customers that they use, right? So where customers that they use, right? So where do you put those features? What are do you put those features? What are do you put those features? What are those features? A whole bunch of them those features? A whole bunch of them those features? A whole bunch of them are in existing workflows to help the are in existing workflows to help the are in existing workflows to help the customer do that existing workflow customer do that existing workflow customer do that existing workflow faster, better, higher quality, more faster, better, higher quality, more faster, better, higher quality, more efficiently. efficiently. efficiently. Those tend to be very unexciting from a Those tend to be very unexciting from a Those tend to be very unexciting from a magic point of view in terms of what magic point of view in terms of what magic point of view in terms of what sells a, you know, a 30-cond animated sells a, you know, a 30-cond animated sells a, you know, a 30-cond animated GIF on on X, but they're incredibly GIF on on X, but they're incredibly GIF on on X, but they're incredibly exciting from the customer because they exciting from the customer because they exciting from the customer because they can use them today. Like their existing can use them today. Like their existing can use them today. Like their existing way of working just got better. They're way of working just got better. They're way of working just got better. They're like, "This is amazing." like they rave like, "This is amazing." like they rave like, "This is amazing." like they rave about that stuff and in the AI world about that stuff and in the AI world about that stuff and in the AI world where I'm like but that's pretty simple where I'm like but that's pretty simple where I'm like but that's pretty simple and it's like but it actually helps them and it's like but it actually helps them and it's like but it actually helps them today in a massive way. I tell people today in a massive way. I tell people today in a massive way. I tell people internally though and you can give an internally though and you can give an internally though and you can give an example in service that's not enough example in service that's not enough example in service that's not enough because you also need to use their because you also need to use their because you also need to use their existing workflows with new apps or look existing workflows with new apps or look existing workflows with new apps or look at new workflows and be able to handle at new workflows and be able to handle at new workflows and be able to handle that as well right so we have to do all that as well right so we have to do all that as well right so we have to do all of these things so if you look at you of these things so if you look at you of these things so if you look at you know Jira is a cononical example know Jira is a cononical example know Jira is a cononical example you know in the service collection in you know in the service collection in you know in the service collection in our in our uh HR and IT service our in our uh HR and IT service our in our uh HR and IT service management products summarizing a ticket management products summarizing a ticket management products summarizing a ticket is something we can do way better than is something we can do way better than is something we can do way better than we ever could because there's a lot of we ever could because there's a lot of we ever could because there's a lot of existing workflows we have in enterprise existing workflows we have in enterprise existing workflows we have in enterprise maybe a four five six people work a maybe a four five six people work a maybe a four five six people work a ticket internally to try to resolve a ticket internally to try to resolve a ticket internally to try to resolve a problem. The fourth person that shows problem. The fourth person that shows problem. The fourth person that shows up, there are a whole lot of attached up, there are a whole lot of attached up, there are a whole lot of attached files. There's a lot of conversation. files. There's a lot of conversation. files. There's a lot of conversation. There's a lot of different things going There's a lot of different things going There's a lot of different things going on. They would normally have taken 30 on. They would normally have taken 30 on. They would normally have taken 30 minutes to like read it all and minutes to like read it all and minutes to like read it all and understand what's going on. So then they understand what's going on. So then they understand what's going on. So then they can bring their expertise to bear on the can bring their expertise to bear on the can bring their expertise to bear on the problem. Literally just summarizing that problem. Literally just summarizing that problem. Literally just summarizing that and it's not a simple stick it into, you and it's not a simple stick it into, you and it's not a simple stick it into, you know, an LLM and get back summary. You know, an LLM and get back summary. You know, an LLM and get back summary. You have to be very careful about the have to be very careful about the have to be very careful about the context is so powerful for them. But context is so powerful for them. But context is so powerful for them. But they haven't changed their workflow on they haven't changed their workflow on they haven't changed their workflow on iota. It's still Alex saying, "Hey, iota. It's still Alex saying, "Hey, iota. It's still Alex saying, "Hey, Eric, can you come help me with this Eric, can you come help me with this Eric, can you come help me with this ticket?" Eric shows up, Eric has to ticket?" Eric shows up, Eric has to ticket?" Eric shows up, Eric has to bootload his brain with all the things. bootload his brain with all the things. bootload his brain with all the things. So, that's like an existing workflow So, that's like an existing workflow So, that's like an existing workflow where we can use LMS just to make that where we can use LMS just to make that where we can use LMS just to make that customer way better. And they love it, customer way better. And they love it, customer way better. And they love it, right? They rave about all these types right? They rave about all these types right? They rave about all these types of features, but they're very simple. of features, but they're very simple. of features, but they're very simple. They're usually not agentic. Uh then we They're usually not agentic. Uh then we They're usually not agentic. Uh then we can say, "Cool, but that service can say, "Cool, but that service can say, "Cool, but that service workflow, we need to put agents in at workflow, we need to put agents in at workflow, we need to put agents in at various spots, right?" And most people various spots, right?" And most people various spots, right?" And most people are taking a workflow are taking a workflow are taking a workflow and finding, you know what, this step and finding, you know what, this step and finding, you know what, this step trips us up a lot. This costs us a lot trips us up a lot. This costs us a lot trips us up a lot. This costs us a lot of time. Can we make this step faster? of time. Can we make this step faster? of time. Can we make this step faster? And that's absolutely something that we And that's absolutely something that we And that's absolutely something that we have to provide agent frameworks have to provide agent frameworks have to provide agent frameworks ourselves. We have a pretty great agent ourselves. We have a pretty great agent ourselves. We have a pretty great agent framework that uses all the team graph framework that uses all the team graph framework that uses all the team graph and all the context you have. It's and all the context you have. It's and all the context you have. It's pretty simple. It's pretty very pretty simple. It's pretty very pretty simple. It's pretty very affordable. Um or you bring your own affordable. Um or you bring your own affordable. Um or you bring your own agent framework, right? Most businesses agent framework, right? Most businesses agent framework, right? Most businesses I think will have three to five large I think will have three to five large I think will have three to five large scale agent platforms running internally scale agent platforms running internally scale agent platforms running internally and they say, "Hey, I use agent force and they say, "Hey, I use agent force and they say, "Hey, I use agent force for this or I use Gemini for this." for this or I use Gemini for this." for this or I use Gemini for this." Great. Bring that agent and we'll pop it Great. Bring that agent and we'll pop it Great. Bring that agent and we'll pop it in the workflow here and we'll make that in the workflow here and we'll make that in the workflow here and we'll make that work, right? We have to be able to do work, right? We have to be able to do work, right? We have to be able to do that. But you're still all in the that. But you're still all in the that. But you're still all in the existing workflow world. you're just existing workflow world. you're just existing workflow world. you're just doing the old task and then doing kind doing the old task and then doing kind doing the old task and then doing kind of a new and efficient task but in the of a new and efficient task but in the of a new and efficient task but in the existing workflow. Then you get people existing workflow. Then you get people existing workflow. Then you get people like what if the service ticket didn't like what if the service ticket didn't like what if the service ticket didn't exist at all, right? So you're exist at all, right? So you're exist at all, right? So you're reimagining whole categories of software reimagining whole categories of software reimagining whole categories of software to new workflows and we have to help our to new workflows and we have to help our to new workflows and we have to help our customers make it across that gap customers make it across that gap customers make it across that gap because they don't generally have one because they don't generally have one because they don't generally have one service team. They have hundreds, right? service team. They have hundreds, right? service team. They have hundreds, right? And if they have hundreds of different And if they have hundreds of different And if they have hundreds of different service desks running, they might say service desks running, they might say service desks running, they might say these 20 are going to work in this new these 20 are going to work in this new these 20 are going to work in this new way these but they have to manage them way these but they have to manage them way these but they have to manage them all. So, I guess we're trying to bring all. So, I guess we're trying to bring all. So, I guess we're trying to bring data data data in the teamwork graph together with this in the teamwork graph together with this in the teamwork graph together with this and also from a customer-driven lens. I and also from a customer-driven lens. I and also from a customer-driven lens. I think that often gets left out here, think that often gets left out here, think that often gets left out here, right? We're trying to take them 5 years right? We're trying to take them 5 years right? We're trying to take them 5 years into the future. It's our job to into the future. It's our job to into the future. It's our job to actually get them one year and two years actually get them one year and two years actually get them one year and two years and 5 years into the future and 5 years into the future and 5 years into the future simultaneously, which we we're trying to simultaneously, which we we're trying to simultaneously, which we we're trying to do. And the last thing I'd say is we're do. And the last thing I'd say is we're do. And the last thing I'd say is we're investing a lot in design. And I think investing a lot in design. And I think investing a lot in design. And I think that always in any conversation gets that always in any conversation gets that always in any conversation gets left out because there's a lot of left out because there's a lot of left out because there's a lot of foundational design to do in how this foundational design to do in how this foundational design to do in how this works, right? We're seeing the first works, right? We're seeing the first works, right? We're seeing the first elements of this, but if I look at the elements of this, but if I look at the elements of this, but if I look at the mobile era, the first set of apps were mobile era, the first set of apps were mobile era, the first set of apps were kind of just canonically taking desktop kind of just canonically taking desktop kind of just canonically taking desktop or web things and sticking them in a or web things and sticking them in a or web things and sticking them in a phone. And then we evolved new patterns phone. And then we evolved new patterns phone. And then we evolved new patterns of interaction and experience, right? of interaction and experience, right? of interaction and experience, right? Not even the visuals. How do we use Not even the visuals. How do we use Not even the visuals. How do we use these things? What were push these things? What were push these things? What were push notifications for? They didn't exist at notifications for? They didn't exist at notifications for? They didn't exist at the start, right? drag to refresh is the start, right? drag to refresh is the start, right? drag to refresh is like a very obvious simple example like a very obvious simple example like a very obvious simple example that's a pretty canonical design pattern that's a pretty canonical design pattern that's a pretty canonical design pattern that generally it's successful here and that generally it's successful here and that generally it's successful here and it gets moved across but the whole like it gets moved across but the whole like it gets moved across but the whole like how do I use my mobile and my desktop how do I use my mobile and my desktop how do I use my mobile and my desktop together how do I move back and forth we together how do I move back and forth we together how do I move back and forth we have so many design challenges to solve have so many design challenges to solve have so many design challenges to solve um that actually help people to um that actually help people to um that actually help people to understand what's there the average understand what's there the average understand what's there the average customer we have the average user they customer we have the average user they customer we have the average user they don't want to understand if if AI don't want to understand if if AI don't want to understand if if AI doesn't exist for them that's fine doesn't exist for them that's fine doesn't exist for them that's fine but they want the outcomes of it right? but they want the outcomes of it right? but they want the outcomes of it right? They don't need to know all of the They don't need to know all of the They don't need to know all of the technical detail. It's our job to hide technical detail. It's our job to hide technical detail. It's our job to hide them and just give them the answer them and just give them the answer them and just give them the answer they're looking for or make a task more they're looking for or make a task more they're looking for or make a task more effective or efficient. I feel like in effective or efficient. I feel like in effective or efficient. I feel like in the technology world sometimes we get so the technology world sometimes we get so the technology world sometimes we get so obsessed by like model quality. You obsessed by like model quality. You obsessed by like model quality. You know, it's it's almost trit now to say know, it's it's almost trit now to say know, it's it's almost trit now to say the models are far ahead of the the the models are far ahead of the the the models are far ahead of the the actual value they're delivering now that actual value they're delivering now that actual value they're delivering now that the underutilized capabilities are so the underutilized capabilities are so the underutilized capabilities are so big. A part of that equation is actually big. A part of that equation is actually big. A part of that equation is actually design and experience, right? How do I design and experience, right? How do I design and experience, right? How do I get this? give people a chat box that get this? give people a chat box that get this? give people a chat box that can do unlimited power and they're like, can do unlimited power and they're like, can do unlimited power and they're like, "Uh, tell me a dad joke." Like, it's "Uh, tell me a dad joke." Like, it's "Uh, tell me a dad joke." Like, it's like unlimited power, but it does it's like unlimited power, but it does it's like unlimited power, but it does it's very hard to help them utilize that very hard to help them utilize that very hard to help them utilize that power, which is where a huge amount of power, which is where a huge amount of power, which is where a huge amount of our challenge goes in terms of bringing our challenge goes in terms of bringing our challenge goes in terms of bringing agents and all the the power of them agents and all the the power of them agents and all the the power of them into workflows and collaborative loops into workflows and collaborative loops into workflows and collaborative loops and and having humans and agents work and and having humans and agents work and and having humans and agents work together. I I I love the skuorphic point together. I I I love the skuorphic point together. I I I love the skuorphic point on well you know it's first it's like on well you know it's first it's like on well you know it's first it's like you had pieces of paper the early web you had pieces of paper the early web you had pieces of paper the early web was just like a web page that's why it's was just like a web page that's why it's was just like a web page that's why it's called a web page it's like eight and a called a web page it's like eight and a called a web page it's like eight and a half by 11 right and then mobile oh half by 11 right and then mobile oh half by 11 right and then mobile oh we'll make it a tiny web page and then we'll make it a tiny web page and then we'll make it a tiny web page and then it turns out if you don't just go into it turns out if you don't just go into it turns out if you don't just go into the skuorphic world but you just think the skuorphic world but you just think the skuorphic world but you just think from first principles and take advantage from first principles and take advantage from first principles and take advantage of the power of the device you do all of the power of the device you do all of the power of the device you do all sorts of other things it's like you know sorts of other things it's like you know sorts of other things it's like you know the the the scroll to refresh right like the the the scroll to refresh right like the the the scroll to refresh right like the the the pull pull down to refresh the the the pull pull down to refresh the the the pull pull down to refresh that was a new concept that came for that was a new concept that came for that was a new concept that came for mobile right so um I was thinking about mobile right so um I was thinking about mobile right so um I was thinking about this the other day. I don't know. Have this the other day. I don't know. Have this the other day. I don't know. Have you tried Nano Banana 2? you tried Nano Banana 2? you tried Nano Banana 2? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> It's really good. Right. So, uh, one of >> It's really good. Right. So, uh, one of >> It's really good. Right. So, uh, one of my colleagues just said, "Hey, uh, for my colleagues just said, "Hey, uh, for my colleagues just said, "Hey, uh, for an American tourist visiting Japan, make an American tourist visiting Japan, make an American tourist visiting Japan, make an infographic about what to do and not an infographic about what to do and not an infographic about what to do and not to do." And it's like it oneshots to do." And it's like it oneshots to do." And it's like it oneshots something that's amazing. How do you something that's amazing. How do you something that's amazing. How do you edit that output? Right? And that's edit that output? Right? And that's edit that output? Right? And that's where it's like, you know, it feels very where it's like, you know, it feels very where it's like, you know, it feels very it's well, you could edit the text, you it's well, you could edit the text, you it's well, you could edit the text, you could edit the graphics, you could just could edit the graphics, you could just could edit the graphics, you could just oneshot something new or, you know, what oneshot something new or, you know, what oneshot something new or, you know, what what is the state? I guess this is my what is the state? I guess this is my what is the state? I guess this is my question for you is like what do you question for you is like what do you question for you is like what do you think the state-of-the-art is or should think the state-of-the-art is or should think the state-of-the-art is or should be? And how have you been thinking about be? And how have you been thinking about be? And how have you been thinking about this just because you mentioned design this just because you mentioned design this just because you mentioned design for editing the output of the AI output, for editing the output of the AI output, for editing the output of the AI output, >> right? Because they're they're like the >> right? Because they're they're like the >> right? Because they're they're like the they're the classic. It's like, oh, I'll they're the classic. It's like, oh, I'll they're the classic. It's like, oh, I'll use a guey and click here and change use a guey and click here and change use a guey and click here and change that. But it feels like that's very that. But it feels like that's very that. But it feels like that's very skumorphic. skumorphic. skumorphic. >> I would I would I would zoom out two >> I would I would I would zoom out two >> I would I would I would zoom out two levels from that to answer that question levels from that to answer that question levels from that to answer that question because it's a great question. First is because it's a great question. First is because it's a great question. First is customer trust is really hard in these customer trust is really hard in these customer trust is really hard in these areas, right? When you go talk to users, areas, right? When you go talk to users, areas, right? When you go talk to users, you sit down, you do research with them, you sit down, you do research with them, you sit down, you do research with them, you sit, you ask them questions, you ask you sit, you ask them questions, you ask you sit, you ask them questions, you ask the five W's, they're very scared of AI, the five W's, they're very scared of AI, the five W's, they're very scared of AI, not because of its power, because it not because of its power, because it not because of its power, because it does stuff and they're like, "Hey, how does stuff and they're like, "Hey, how does stuff and they're like, "Hey, how do I know that was right and what did it do I know that was right and what did it do I know that was right and what did it do?" Right? It's like the idea that oh do?" Right? It's like the idea that oh do?" Right? It's like the idea that oh don't worry my AI bots's gone and sent don't worry my AI bots's gone and sent don't worry my AI bots's gone and sent 15 emails and managed your inbox your 15 emails and managed your inbox your 15 emails and managed your inbox your inbox is empty and you're like okay did inbox is empty and you're like okay did inbox is empty and you're like okay did it I don't trust it yet like so I have a it I don't trust it yet like so I have a it I don't trust it yet like so I have a trust question on generally AI doing trust question on generally AI doing trust question on generally AI doing things really quickly to gain trust it things really quickly to gain trust it things really quickly to gain trust it has to come back to you and say here's has to come back to you and say here's has to come back to you and say here's what I'm about to do are you sure you what I'm about to do are you sure you what I'm about to do are you sure you want me to do this without being want me to do this without being want me to do this without being annoying that like just effing go and do annoying that like just effing go and do annoying that like just effing go and do it so like that that's a whole design it so like that that's a whole design it so like that that's a whole design question how often does it how do you question how often does it how do you question how often does it how do you build trust with any of these tools the build trust with any of these tools the build trust with any of these tools the second is does it have enough data, second is does it have enough data, second is does it have enough data, right? So much of AI is oneshotting right? So much of AI is oneshotting right? So much of AI is oneshotting things. Sit on X, you'll see a thousand things. Sit on X, you'll see a thousand things. Sit on X, you'll see a thousand like, hey, this is the magical prompt like, hey, this is the magical prompt like, hey, this is the magical prompt incarnation Harry Potter spell that does incarnation Harry Potter spell that does incarnation Harry Potter spell that does this like runs you a oneperson billion this like runs you a oneperson billion this like runs you a oneperson billion dollar business. Just put this prompt in dollar business. Just put this prompt in dollar business. Just put this prompt in and paste it. And like that's like kind and paste it. And like that's like kind and paste it. And like that's like kind of ridiculous because the reality is you of ridiculous because the reality is you of ridiculous because the reality is you also have a lot of iteration on the data also have a lot of iteration on the data also have a lot of iteration on the data side, right? oneshotting things is side, right? oneshotting things is side, right? oneshotting things is really useful, but you often need to go really useful, but you often need to go really useful, but you often need to go back and edit the output and the input, back and edit the output and the input, back and edit the output and the input, right? I'm not very good. I've used this right? I'm not very good. I've used this right? I'm not very good. I've used this example for a while where you say, "Hey, example for a while where you say, "Hey, example for a while where you say, "Hey, go write me an essay for my homework." go write me an essay for my homework." go write me an essay for my homework." It'll spit out an essay and you're like, It'll spit out an essay and you're like, It'll spit out an essay and you're like, "Wait, no, no, it's a history class." "Wait, no, no, it's a history class." "Wait, no, no, it's a history class." They're like, "Oh, okay. Well, let's They're like, "Oh, okay. Well, let's They're like, "Oh, okay. Well, let's deliver an essay." And like you're deliver an essay." And like you're deliver an essay." And like you're actually changing the input. And actually changing the input. And actually changing the input. And somewhat this is chat like iterations. somewhat this is chat like iterations. somewhat this is chat like iterations. But if you've ever tried to do that But if you've ever tried to do that But if you've ever tried to do that image editing with chat iterations, it's image editing with chat iterations, it's image editing with chat iterations, it's super frustrating where it's like, oh super frustrating where it's like, oh super frustrating where it's like, oh no, you changed the thing I didn't want no, you changed the thing I didn't want no, you changed the thing I didn't want you to change and you come back, you're you to change and you come back, you're you to change and you come back, you're like, so like there's an input design like, so like there's an input design like, so like there's an input design and experience problem. Part of that is and experience problem. Part of that is and experience problem. Part of that is how do I have the right amount of how do I have the right amount of how do I have the right amount of context and then there's an output and context and then there's an output and context and then there's an output and iteration problems. Our teamwork graph iteration problems. Our teamwork graph iteration problems. Our teamwork graph can access largely all of your can access largely all of your can access largely all of your organizational knowledge. It's insanely organizational knowledge. It's insanely organizational knowledge. It's insanely accurate. It's got great search. It's accurate. It's got great search. It's accurate. It's got great search. It's got amazing relevance. And you're like, got amazing relevance. And you're like, got amazing relevance. And you're like, "Sweet. I have full organizational "Sweet. I have full organizational "Sweet. I have full organizational memory." Now, the teamwork graph knows memory." Now, the teamwork graph knows memory." Now, the teamwork graph knows that I used to write code in 2002. that I used to write code in 2002. that I used to write code in 2002. And it knows that because it has this And it knows that because it has this And it knows that because it has this insane memory. And I'm like, it's insane memory. And I'm like, it's insane memory. And I'm like, it's actually not useful. Don't use that to actually not useful. Don't use that to actually not useful. Don't use that to answer any query I give you other than answer any query I give you other than answer any query I give you other than one thing. Mike used to be a developer. one thing. Mike used to be a developer. one thing. Mike used to be a developer. Maybe a bad one, right? It wouldn't get Maybe a bad one, right? It wouldn't get Maybe a bad one, right? It wouldn't get hired nowadays anywhere. But maybe that hired nowadays anywhere. But maybe that hired nowadays anywhere. But maybe that helps in explaining something to me in a helps in explaining something to me in a helps in explaining something to me in a way that, oh, you have a computer way that, oh, you have a computer way that, oh, you have a computer science degree. I can help explain it to science degree. I can help explain it to science degree. I can help explain it to you in this way, but I don't want to you in this way, but I don't want to you in this way, but I don't want to know all that information. Why is that know all that information. Why is that know all that information. Why is that an input challenge? You kind of see all an input challenge? You kind of see all an input challenge? You kind of see all these boxes at the moment where it's these boxes at the moment where it's these boxes at the moment where it's like search the web, don't search the like search the web, don't search the like search the web, don't search the web, search my organization, don't web, search my organization, don't web, search my organization, don't search my organ, like you're asking the search my organ, like you're asking the search my organ, like you're asking the user make all these choices they don't user make all these choices they don't user make all these choices they don't quite understand. That's not in a design quite understand. That's not in a design quite understand. That's not in a design flow, right? Where it says, hey, this flow, right? Where it says, hey, this flow, right? Where it says, hey, this question, I suspect you want me to do question, I suspect you want me to do question, I suspect you want me to do this and that. Is that correct? You see this and that. Is that correct? You see this and that. Is that correct? You see that a little bit in deep research, but that a little bit in deep research, but that a little bit in deep research, but it's a bit frustrating. And it leads to it's a bit frustrating. And it leads to it's a bit frustrating. And it leads to this whole like, man, I've got 17 this whole like, man, I've got 17 this whole like, man, I've got 17 different agents running off and doing different agents running off and doing different agents running off and doing stuff. And I'm like, it's like the the stuff. And I'm like, it's like the the stuff. And I'm like, it's like the the problem of having a lot of interns where problem of having a lot of interns where problem of having a lot of interns where like the problem with having 50 interns like the problem with having 50 interns like the problem with having 50 interns is you get a lot of work done. The is you get a lot of work done. The is you get a lot of work done. The problem with having 50 interns is they problem with having 50 interns is they problem with having 50 interns is they ask you 50 questions a minute and you're ask you 50 questions a minute and you're ask you 50 questions a minute and you're like, all you're doing is answering like, all you're doing is answering like, all you're doing is answering questions for interns. Um, so there's an questions for interns. Um, so there's an questions for interns. Um, so there's an input problem of experience that you input problem of experience that you input problem of experience that you really need to solve. Then you get to really need to solve. Then you get to really need to solve. Then you get to the iteration problem which in a the iteration problem which in a the iteration problem which in a corporation is much more difficult right corporation is much more difficult right corporation is much more difficult right because um we gave this great example of because um we gave this great example of because um we gave this great example of you know brainstorming where it's not you know brainstorming where it's not you know brainstorming where it's not usually one person brainstorming so in usually one person brainstorming so in usually one person brainstorming so in our in our whiteboard and confluence you our in our whiteboard and confluence you our in our whiteboard and confluence you can bring in agents and say hey I want can bring in agents and say hey I want can bring in agents and say hey I want to brainstorm about this topic they are to brainstorm about this topic they are to brainstorm about this topic they are really good at going off and getting all really good at going off and getting all really good at going off and getting all the information from your organizational the information from your organizational the information from your organizational knowledge to the teamwork graph and knowledge to the teamwork graph and knowledge to the teamwork graph and coming back with a really good coming back with a really good coming back with a really good brainstorm and we get better and better brainstorm and we get better and better brainstorm and we get better and better at drawing it and putting the cards in at drawing it and putting the cards in at drawing it and putting the cards in the right places and everything else. If the right places and everything else. If the right places and everything else. If you just take that randomly and say go, you just take that randomly and say go, you just take that randomly and say go, you lose human input and trust. So, you lose human input and trust. So, you lose human input and trust. So, actually, usually what happens then is actually, usually what happens then is actually, usually what happens then is we've got a bunch of data. We're going we've got a bunch of data. We're going we've got a bunch of data. We're going to have a meeting. We're going to get to have a meeting. We're going to get to have a meeting. We're going to get people together. We're going to go and people together. We're going to go and people together. We're going to go and say what do we all think? Add our say what do we all think? Add our say what do we all think? Add our intuition that the the the brain matter. intuition that the the the brain matter. intuition that the the the brain matter. Which of these are useful or not useful? Which of these are useful or not useful? Which of these are useful or not useful? And then that information has to go back And then that information has to go back And then that information has to go back into some other agentic loop to say, into some other agentic loop to say, into some other agentic loop to say, cool. Now, we've kind of voted although cool. Now, we've kind of voted although cool. Now, we've kind of voted although the voting is like the output of a of a the voting is like the output of a of a the voting is like the output of a of a human process. human process. human process. then you're going to go and do something then you're going to go and do something then you're going to go and do something and then we're going to work out what to and then we're going to work out what to and then we're going to work out what to do and did we do it correctly and and do and did we do it correctly and and do and did we do it correctly and and all these things. It's as you said it's all these things. It's as you said it's all these things. It's as you said it's very non-deterministic in the quality of very non-deterministic in the quality of very non-deterministic in the quality of output but it requires I think this output but it requires I think this output but it requires I think this human agent loop right and and getting human agent loop right and and getting human agent loop right and and getting that right is a design problem too many that right is a design problem too many that right is a design problem too many loops it's frustrating not enough loops loops it's frustrating not enough loops loops it's frustrating not enough loops you lose trust and it just it just you lose trust and it just it just you lose trust and it just it just happens and so we see that we just happens and so we see that we just happens and so we see that we just shipped you know agents in Jira in a lot shipped you know agents in Jira in a lot shipped you know agents in Jira in a lot of ways so you can like assign work to of ways so you can like assign work to of ways so you can like assign work to an agent and it goes off and does stuff an agent and it goes off and does stuff an agent and it goes off and does stuff and when we test it with people they're and when we test it with people they're and when we test it with people they're like what's it doing like do you want to like what's it doing like do you want to like what's it doing like do you want to give us a thousand steps they're like give us a thousand steps they're like give us a thousand steps they're like why are you telling me all this crap? why are you telling me all this crap? why are you telling me all this crap? I'm like wait cuz you said you didn't I'm like wait cuz you said you didn't I'm like wait cuz you said you didn't know what it was doing and so there are know what it was doing and so there are know what it was doing and so there are lots of design challenges with just lots of design challenges with just lots of design challenges with just bringing them into workflows and back to bringing them into workflows and back to bringing them into workflows and back to the business processes the business processes the business processes like the I don't know the security team like the I don't know the security team like the I don't know the security team is involved in a lot of places the is involved in a lot of places the is involved in a lot of places the accounting team the finance team there's accounting team the finance team there's accounting team the finance team there's lots of places like even in sales lots of places like even in sales lots of places like even in sales finance usually has sign off on a deal finance usually has sign off on a deal finance usually has sign off on a deal or someone in finance does how do you do or someone in finance does how do you do or someone in finance does how do you do that and make that workflow better where that and make that workflow better where that and make that workflow better where you're just assigning to agents you need you're just assigning to agents you need you're just assigning to agents you need to be very careful about the experience to be very careful about the experience to be very careful about the experience how does it come back? When does it come how does it come back? When does it come how does it come back? When does it come back? Is it frustrating? Does it come back? Is it frustrating? Does it come back? Is it frustrating? Does it come back in a new way? Can I interrogate back in a new way? Can I interrogate back in a new way? Can I interrogate what it's doing right now? Like our what it's doing right now? Like our what it's doing right now? Like our agent uh first or third party agents agent uh first or third party agents agent uh first or third party agents we're running in Jura. If they're off we're running in Jura. If they're off we're running in Jura. If they're off doing a task, you can chat to them while doing a task, you can chat to them while doing a task, you can chat to them while they're doing the task and say, "What they're doing the task and say, "What they're doing the task and say, "What are you doing?" Which helps you build are you doing?" Which helps you build are you doing?" Which helps you build trust in the short term, we believe, but trust in the short term, we believe, but trust in the short term, we believe, but in the long term, if you trust it, this in the long term, if you trust it, this in the long term, if you trust it, this particular agent doing this task, man, particular agent doing this task, man, particular agent doing this task, man, it's got to write the last 20 times. The it's got to write the last 20 times. The it's got to write the last 20 times. The odds are right. It's it's good. I'm just odds are right. It's it's good. I'm just odds are right. It's it's good. I'm just going to ignore it. These are all, I going to ignore it. These are all, I going to ignore it. These are all, I would argue, a fundamental foundational would argue, a fundamental foundational would argue, a fundamental foundational design and experience problem. They're design and experience problem. They're design and experience problem. They're not a technology problem, right? They're not a technology problem, right? They're not a technology problem, right? They're getting millions of people who use our getting millions of people who use our getting millions of people who use our apps every day to trust this and the apps every day to trust this and the apps every day to trust this and the gains they get and removing the blank gains they get and removing the blank gains they get and removing the blank box. I can do unlimited things for you, box. I can do unlimited things for you, box. I can do unlimited things for you, which just leads to paralysis. I think which just leads to paralysis. I think which just leads to paralysis. I think for for most people, for for most people, for for most people, >> it's it's it's an open question, right? >> it's it's it's an open question, right? >> it's it's it's an open question, right? It's like because it's clearly like it's It's like because it's clearly like it's It's like because it's clearly like it's not the yesterday version of like click not the yesterday version of like click not the yesterday version of like click your mouse here and it's not the today your mouse here and it's not the today your mouse here and it's not the today version of just do a new prompt. It's version of just do a new prompt. It's version of just do a new prompt. It's like both. It's like the it's it like both. It's like the it's it like both. It's like the it's it actually is like a as long as humans are actually is like a as long as humans are actually is like a as long as humans are involved in some way, shape or form, involved in some way, shape or form, involved in some way, shape or form, which I firmly believe they will be which I firmly believe they will be which I firmly believe they will be because these tools serve humans. You because these tools serve humans. You because these tools serve humans. You need to be able to get your head into need to be able to get your head into need to be able to get your head into the model um both from a trust the model um both from a trust the model um both from a trust perspective and from an iteration perspective and from an iteration perspective and from an iteration perspective. And it's it's a design perspective. And it's it's a design perspective. And it's it's a design problem. And I don't think any any problem. And I don't think any any problem. And I don't think any any nobody's quite nailed it yet or I don't nobody's quite nailed it yet or I don't nobody's quite nailed it yet or I don't know maybe they have but it feels like know maybe they have but it feels like know maybe they have but it feels like we're at the very very beginning of this we're at the very very beginning of this we're at the very very beginning of this process of coming up with a better process of coming up with a better process of coming up with a better design for modulating not even modulated design for modulating not even modulated design for modulating not even modulated but just kind of editing the the but just kind of editing the the but just kind of editing the the oneshots which impressive as they are oneshots which impressive as they are oneshots which impressive as they are today. It's just like that's not going today. It's just like that's not going today. It's just like that's not going to be I I just don't believe it's just to be I I just don't believe it's just to be I I just don't believe it's just like ah Harry Potter spell incantation. like ah Harry Potter spell incantation. like ah Harry Potter spell incantation. I'm going to steal that phrase. That's a I'm going to steal that phrase. That's a I'm going to steal that phrase. That's a good one. Uh I think I think one thing good one. Uh I think I think one thing good one. Uh I think I think one thing one interesting example is just writing one interesting example is just writing one interesting example is just writing documents documents documents is something we all do so naturally and is something we all do so naturally and is something we all do so naturally and there is a huge design challenge and there is a huge design challenge and there is a huge design challenge and experience challenge which I can experience challenge which I can experience challenge which I can describe with AI document writing but describe with AI document writing but describe with AI document writing but secondly there's also a huge like people secondly there's also a huge like people secondly there's also a huge like people learning challenge so like we sometimes learning challenge so like we sometimes learning challenge so like we sometimes forget pretty much people in technology forget pretty much people in technology forget pretty much people in technology know what a prompt is and what it does know what a prompt is and what it does know what a prompt is and what it does and what the LM's doing in the and what the LM's doing in the and what the LM's doing in the background. You go to people in the background. You go to people in the background. You go to people in the broad business world, they don't have broad business world, they don't have broad business world, they don't have time to learn all this. They kind of time to learn all this. They kind of time to learn all this. They kind of probably know what CHBT is. They don't probably know what CHBT is. They don't probably know what CHBT is. They don't quite know how it's working. And the quite know how it's working. And the quite know how it's working. And the reason it's a design challenge of reason it's a design challenge of reason it's a design challenge of document creation is um we have a whole document creation is um we have a whole document creation is um we have a whole set of features which we call create set of features which we call create set of features which we call create with Rovo, which instead of writing a with Rovo, which instead of writing a with Rovo, which instead of writing a document by giving you a blank page and document by giving you a blank page and document by giving you a blank page and just starting to write. Okay, I got a just starting to write. Okay, I got a just starting to write. Okay, I got a heading, I put some text in, I put heading, I put some text in, I put heading, I put some text in, I put another heading, I put some text in, I another heading, I put some text in, I another heading, I put some text in, I put a table, etc., right? Is we've all put a table, etc., right? Is we've all put a table, etc., right? Is we've all been trained for decades in knowledge been trained for decades in knowledge been trained for decades in knowledge worker to write a document that way. worker to write a document that way. worker to write a document that way. With create with rovo, you can literally With create with rovo, you can literally With create with rovo, you can literally say start with a prompt, right? Hey, I say start with a prompt, right? Hey, I say start with a prompt, right? Hey, I want a document that roughly does this want a document that roughly does this want a document that roughly does this or looks like this shape. Give me a or looks like this shape. Give me a or looks like this shape. Give me a template and I'll spit out a template. template and I'll spit out a template. template and I'll spit out a template. You can say, hey, I want a document. Can You can say, hey, I want a document. Can You can say, hey, I want a document. Can you go off and research this, that, and you go off and research this, that, and you go off and research this, that, and the other? And bring it back. But most the other? And bring it back. But most the other? And bring it back. But most of those documents, the research is of those documents, the research is of those documents, the research is actually a small category of tasks. It's actually a small category of tasks. It's actually a small category of tasks. It's like, help me get started with my like, help me get started with my like, help me get started with my document in some way. Teaching users document in some way. Teaching users document in some way. Teaching users that they should start that way is that they should start that way is that they should start that way is really, really hard. Once they're really, really hard. Once they're really, really hard. Once they're running though, they now have two panes, running though, they now have two panes, running though, they now have two panes, right? They have right? They have right? They have 75% of the screen is the document itself 75% of the screen is the document itself 75% of the screen is the document itself and 25% is a chat window. Think of and 25% is a chat window. Think of and 25% is a chat window. Think of Microsoft Word without a toolbar but Microsoft Word without a toolbar but Microsoft Word without a toolbar but with chat only. Now I can type text in. with chat only. Now I can type text in. with chat only. Now I can type text in. I can edit it. I can change it. And you I can edit it. I can change it. And you I can edit it. I can change it. And you need to say, "Hey, you should be totally need to say, "Hey, you should be totally need to say, "Hey, you should be totally comfortable change everything on the comfortable change everything on the comfortable change everything on the left." But you can do operations on the left." But you can do operations on the left." But you can do operations on the right like, "Hey, I want you to add a right like, "Hey, I want you to add a right like, "Hey, I want you to add a new section that goes and researches new section that goes and researches new section that goes and researches this other stuff and put it after like this other stuff and put it after like this other stuff and put it after like the summary." And it'll go and do that. the summary." And it'll go and do that. the summary." And it'll go and do that. trying to watch power users are like trying to watch power users are like trying to watch power users are like this is amazing and they're like moving this is amazing and they're like moving this is amazing and they're like moving back and forth and they're getting the back and forth and they're getting the back and forth and they're getting the whole paradigm and they're like doing whole paradigm and they're like doing whole paradigm and they're like doing things and they can write commands like things and they can write commands like things and they can write commands like you know what make every heading blue you know what make every heading blue you know what make every heading blue which you can't do in Word and they're which you can't do in Word and they're which you can't do in Word and they're like bang it's all blue and they're like like bang it's all blue and they're like like bang it's all blue and they're like this is cool I can kind of give it this is cool I can kind of give it this is cool I can kind of give it commands across the document and I can commands across the document and I can commands across the document and I can go get more information and I can like go get more information and I can like go get more information and I can like hey can you resummize it quicker or man hey can you resummize it quicker or man hey can you resummize it quicker or man how do you think they can ask questions how do you think they can ask questions how do you think they can ask questions like how do you think the board is going like how do you think the board is going like how do you think the board is going to read this document as a board member to read this document as a board member to read this document as a board member is it simple enough and it'll give you is it simple enough and it'll give you is it simple enough and it'll give you information in chat that you may say information in chat that you may say information in chat that you may say cool go action out or don't. It's a cool go action out or don't. It's a cool go action out or don't. It's a completely different paradigm to writing completely different paradigm to writing completely different paradigm to writing a simple document which is just at the a simple document which is just at the a simple document which is just at the end of the day you know headings and and end of the day you know headings and and end of the day you know headings and and and bullets and text and stuff and when and bullets and text and stuff and when and bullets and text and stuff and when you watch power users they love it. you watch power users they love it. you watch power users they love it. Normal people like regular business Normal people like regular business Normal people like regular business users who are very smart they're like users who are very smart they're like users who are very smart they're like so I just type on the left that's all I so I just type on the left that's all I so I just type on the left that's all I do. I'm like well yes it's it's a whole do. I'm like well yes it's it's a whole do. I'm like well yes it's it's a whole paradigm shift. I suspect as we get more paradigm shift. I suspect as we get more paradigm shift. I suspect as we get more of these tools and experiences just like of these tools and experiences just like of these tools and experiences just like mobile mobile mobile two years from now and five years from two years from now and five years from two years from now and five years from now that'll be very standard. They'll now that'll be very standard. They'll now that'll be very standard. They'll all say, "Yeah, I get how to do this." all say, "Yeah, I get how to do this." all say, "Yeah, I get how to do this." Right? Maybe the first time someone Right? Maybe the first time someone Right? Maybe the first time someone looked at Excel, they were like, "Wait, looked at Excel, they were like, "Wait, looked at Excel, they were like, "Wait, where do I type the paragraphs or where do I type the paragraphs or where do I type the paragraphs or something and you're like, "Oh, no." You something and you're like, "Oh, no." You something and you're like, "Oh, no." You have to think differently about it. Now have to think differently about it. Now have to think differently about it. Now it's just like, "Oh, yeah, I get Excel. it's just like, "Oh, yeah, I get Excel. it's just like, "Oh, yeah, I get Excel. I know how it works." Um, that's the I know how it works." Um, that's the I know how it works." Um, that's the experience challenge we have, I think, experience challenge we have, I think, experience challenge we have, I think, to take all this power and put it into to take all this power and put it into to take all this power and put it into something as simple as writing a something as simple as writing a something as simple as writing a document with all my organizational document with all my organizational document with all my organizational knowledge. Like, okay, I get the maths knowledge. Like, okay, I get the maths knowledge. Like, okay, I get the maths of why that's possible, but now help me of why that's possible, but now help me of why that's possible, but now help me actually help people do it. Massive actually help people do it. Massive actually help people do it. Massive amount of challenge there. Massive amount of challenge there. Massive amount of challenge there. Massive amount of excitement, right? It's a when amount of excitement, right? It's a when amount of excitement, right? It's a when they get it, they're like, "This thing they get it, they're like, "This thing they get it, they're like, "This thing is amazing." Um, but it's going to take is amazing." Um, but it's going to take is amazing." Um, but it's going to take us a lot of time to get get the us a lot of time to get get the us a lot of time to get get the experiences correct for people to learn. experiences correct for people to learn. experiences correct for people to learn. >> That's a great place to wrap. Um, Mike, >> That's a great place to wrap. Um, Mike, >> That's a great place to wrap. Um, Mike, thank you so much for for coming on the thank you so much for for coming on the thank you so much for for coming on the podcast. It's been an excellent podcast. It's been an excellent podcast. It's been an excellent discussion. discussion. discussion. >> Yeah, no worries, guys. Hope it was >> Yeah, no worries, guys. Hope it was >> Yeah, no worries, guys. Hope it was >> It was great meeting you, Mike.