Is The Manosphere Really That Dangerous? - Louis Theroux

Louie, you've got three sons, 20, 18, Louie, you've got three sons, 20, 18, and 11. Why were you interested in doing and 11. Why were you interested in doing and 11. Why were you interested in doing this documentary? this documentary? this documentary? Uh, well, for for reasons closely Uh, well, for for reasons closely Uh, well, for for reasons closely related to that. I mean, yeah, that's related to that. I mean, yeah, that's related to that. I mean, yeah, that's obviously part of it. Uh, as a dad, I obviously part of it. Uh, as a dad, I obviously part of it. Uh, as a dad, I saw my kids were consuming, I mean, saw my kids were consuming, I mean, saw my kids were consuming, I mean, consuming maybe sounds more active than consuming maybe sounds more active than consuming maybe sounds more active than it was. they were being exposed to it was. they were being exposed to it was. they were being exposed to influencer content, manosphere type influencer content, manosphere type influencer content, manosphere type content, specifically Andrew Tate back content, specifically Andrew Tate back content, specifically Andrew Tate back in the sort of postcoid era when he in the sort of postcoid era when he in the sort of postcoid era when he first blew up and and I remember kids first blew up and and I remember kids first blew up and and I remember kids saying, you know, the boys saying, um, saying, you know, the boys saying, um, saying, you know, the boys saying, um, oh, Andrew Tate said this or that. And oh, Andrew Tate said this or that. And oh, Andrew Tate said this or that. And and think like, well, who who is Andrew and think like, well, who who is Andrew and think like, well, who who is Andrew Tate? Like, that's not ever wasn't Tate? Like, that's not ever wasn't Tate? Like, that's not ever wasn't someone I'd ever heard of. And then the someone I'd ever heard of. And then the someone I'd ever heard of. And then the content obviously turned out to be content obviously turned out to be content obviously turned out to be things like, oh, women can't drive or things like, oh, women can't drive or things like, oh, women can't drive or shouldn't be allowed to drive or women shouldn't be allowed to drive or women shouldn't be allowed to drive or women shouldn't be allowed to vote. Um, and it shouldn't be allowed to vote. Um, and it shouldn't be allowed to vote. Um, and it was hard to, you know, that they were was hard to, you know, that they were was hard to, you know, that they were sort of saying like, well, he just says sort of saying like, well, he just says sort of saying like, well, he just says it as a joke. Like, everyone's freaking it as a joke. Like, everyone's freaking it as a joke. Like, everyone's freaking out about this and but, you know, we we out about this and but, you know, we we out about this and but, you know, we we know what it is. Like, it's clearly uh know what it is. Like, it's clearly uh know what it is. Like, it's clearly uh clickbait or rage bait. But, clickbait or rage bait. But, clickbait or rage bait. But, nevertheless, its level of virality was nevertheless, its level of virality was nevertheless, its level of virality was kind of I I it would be too far to say kind of I I it would be too far to say kind of I I it would be too far to say at this stage it was concerning, but it at this stage it was concerning, but it at this stage it was concerning, but it was kind of weird. It was just weird to was kind of weird. It was just weird to was kind of weird. It was just weird to see someone blow up like that that see someone blow up like that that see someone blow up like that that quickly and to sort of commandeer quickly and to sort of commandeer quickly and to sort of commandeer swavthes of the internet so purposefully swavthes of the internet so purposefully swavthes of the internet so purposefully like he kind of hacked he figured like he kind of hacked he figured like he kind of hacked he figured something out about the algorithm about something out about the algorithm about something out about the algorithm about about uh Twitter and and and social about uh Twitter and and and social about uh Twitter and and and social media in general. Tik Tok really media in general. Tik Tok really media in general. Tik Tok really specifically doing podcasts saying specifically doing podcasts saying specifically doing podcasts saying outrageous things having an army of outrageous things having an army of outrageous things having an army of clippers repurpose those into short clippers repurpose those into short clippers repurpose those into short snippets and those being picked up by snippets and those being picked up by snippets and those being picked up by the algorithm so that everyone literally the algorithm so that everyone literally the algorithm so that everyone literally millions were being worldwide were being millions were being worldwide were being millions were being worldwide were being exposed to his content. So fast forward exposed to his content. So fast forward exposed to his content. So fast forward a few years and he continued to become a few years and he continued to become a few years and he continued to become famous. other people in hisstead or or famous. other people in hisstead or or famous. other people in hisstead or or in associated contexts were putting out in associated contexts were putting out in associated contexts were putting out similarly viral clickbait content and similarly viral clickbait content and similarly viral clickbait content and the whole culture felt like it was being the whole culture felt like it was being the whole culture felt like it was being inundated. inundated. inundated. I say the hulker lot like swavthes of uh I say the hulker lot like swavthes of uh I say the hulker lot like swavthes of uh male skewing internet spaces were being male skewing internet spaces were being male skewing internet spaces were being inundated with it and then meanwhile I'm inundated with it and then meanwhile I'm inundated with it and then meanwhile I'm you know as a program maker of 30 years you know as a program maker of 30 years you know as a program maker of 30 years standing uh I'm always looking for ideas standing uh I'm always looking for ideas standing uh I'm always looking for ideas and I was with I was talking to Netflix and I was with I was talking to Netflix and I was with I was talking to Netflix about making a program and it seemed about making a program and it seemed about making a program and it seemed front and center of what I should be front and center of what I should be front and center of what I should be covering as both someone I mean I've covering as both someone I mean I've covering as both someone I mean I've been joking that it's like the final been joking that it's like the final been joking that it's like the final boss battle of the Louis Thuru subject boss battle of the Louis Thuru subject boss battle of the Louis Thuru subject you know like I as someone who you know like I as someone who you know like I as someone who specialized over the years. I've done specialized over the years. I've done specialized over the years. I've done stuff about racists, cults, stuff about racists, cults, stuff about racists, cults, sex workers of different stripes, um sex workers of different stripes, um sex workers of different stripes, um people involved in pro- wrestling and people involved in pro- wrestling and people involved in pro- wrestling and gangster rap. The man, this aspect of gangster rap. The man, this aspect of gangster rap. The man, this aspect of the manosphere, like this subset section the manosphere, like this subset section the manosphere, like this subset section of the manosphere feels like all those of the manosphere feels like all those of the manosphere feels like all those things mixed together, you know what I things mixed together, you know what I things mixed together, you know what I mean? They look a bit like wrestlers. mean? They look a bit like wrestlers. mean? They look a bit like wrestlers. They speak a little bit like rappers and They speak a little bit like rappers and They speak a little bit like rappers and and the content is clearly highly and the content is clearly highly and the content is clearly highly dubious at best. You know, whether or dubious at best. You know, whether or dubious at best. You know, whether or not it's sincere is a is a different not it's sincere is a is a different not it's sincere is a is a different question. So I was like, well, this is question. So I was like, well, this is question. So I was like, well, this is this is made to measure for whatever my this is made to measure for whatever my this is made to measure for whatever my skill set is in terms of making skill set is in terms of making skill set is in terms of making documentaries. documentaries. documentaries. >> I think the wrestling analogy is apt >> I think the wrestling analogy is apt >> I think the wrestling analogy is apt because a lot of the stuff that we see because a lot of the stuff that we see because a lot of the stuff that we see online even from you know Trump online even from you know Trump online even from you know Trump sometimes is this weird kayfabe where I sometimes is this weird kayfabe where I sometimes is this weird kayfabe where I don't know is this is this a joke or is don't know is this is this a joke or is don't know is this is this a joke or is this real? And if what nobody wants is this real? And if what nobody wants is this real? And if what nobody wants is to be accused of having pointed the to be accused of having pointed the to be accused of having pointed the finger at someone for telling a joke, finger at someone for telling a joke, finger at someone for telling a joke, saying that it was real. And there's saying that it was real. And there's saying that it was real. And there's always the, you know, the sort of the always the, you know, the sort of the always the, you know, the sort of the comedian get out of jail free card of, comedian get out of jail free card of, comedian get out of jail free card of, well, you know, like this is I'm not I'm well, you know, like this is I'm not I'm well, you know, like this is I'm not I'm not being serious with that, but at some not being serious with that, but at some not being serious with that, but at some point the seriousness actually comes point the seriousness actually comes point the seriousness actually comes into touch reality into touch reality into touch reality big time. You know, the wrestling big time. You know, the wrestling big time. You know, the wrestling metaphor is um, as you say, is very metaphor is um, as you say, is very metaphor is um, as you say, is very appropo. We're in a culture now where appropo. We're in a culture now where appropo. We're in a culture now where everyone has access to the media. Like everyone has access to the media. Like everyone has access to the media. Like we we all have our own mini, you know, we we all have our own mini, you know, we we all have our own mini, you know, it used to be I'm I'm older than you, it used to be I'm I'm older than you, it used to be I'm I'm older than you, but I grew up in an era of three or four but I grew up in an era of three or four but I grew up in an era of three or four TV channels. Like when cable arrived TV channels. Like when cable arrived TV channels. Like when cable arrived that was a big deal like oh wow you got that was a big deal like oh wow you got that was a big deal like oh wow you got like 40 channels like what mindblowing like 40 channels like what mindblowing like 40 channels like what mindblowing now there's a there's a real sense in now there's a there's a real sense in now there's a there's a real sense in which we kind of have millions of which we kind of have millions of which we kind of have millions of channels like everyone can have a channels like everyone can have a channels like everyone can have a YouTube account and broadcast what they YouTube account and broadcast what they YouTube account and broadcast what they like so we can all curate a media like so we can all curate a media like so we can all curate a media persona and we all have um we all have persona and we all have um we all have persona and we all have um we all have access to the airwaves of our choosing access to the airwaves of our choosing access to the airwaves of our choosing and part of that is employing personas and part of that is employing personas and part of that is employing personas and as you say kayfabe alongside that and as you say kayfabe alongside that and as you say kayfabe alongside that you know someone who I mean I'm a fan of you know someone who I mean I'm a fan of you know someone who I mean I'm a fan of in a sense self-impersonation like I in a sense self-impersonation like I in a sense self-impersonation like I find all of that it's not coincidental find all of that it's not coincidental find all of that it's not coincidental that I go into these worlds where people that I go into these worlds where people that I go into these worlds where people take off the peg identities like my name take off the peg identities like my name take off the peg identities like my name is Waldo and I'm a wrestler you know and is Waldo and I'm a wrestler you know and is Waldo and I'm a wrestler you know and actually no your name's Louis Thuru and actually no your name's Louis Thuru and actually no your name's Louis Thuru and you're a BBC documentary maker or you're a BBC documentary maker or you're a BBC documentary maker or Netflix documentary maker do you know Netflix documentary maker do you know Netflix documentary maker do you know what I mean or or the worlds of adult what I mean or or the worlds of adult what I mean or or the worlds of adult film stars you know a lot of these film stars you know a lot of these film stars you know a lot of these worlds I've gone into are places where worlds I've gone into are places where worlds I've gone into are places where um you take a new name and the online um you take a new name and the online um you take a new name and the online world which I was looking at thing. One world which I was looking at thing. One world which I was looking at thing. One of the main guys I looked at is uh of the main guys I looked at is uh of the main guys I looked at is uh Harrison Sullivan's his name, but he Harrison Sullivan's his name, but he Harrison Sullivan's his name, but he goes by HS Tickytalkie online. There's goes by HS Tickytalkie online. There's goes by HS Tickytalkie online. There's also a guy called Just um uh Nicholas also a guy called Just um uh Nicholas also a guy called Just um uh Nicholas Balenthazi, and he he uses the handle Balenthazi, and he he uses the handle Balenthazi, and he he uses the handle Sneo. So, it's another another realm in Sneo. So, it's another another realm in Sneo. So, it's another another realm in which you're performing yourself and you which you're performing yourself and you which you're performing yourself and you can employ irony. Uh you can employ can employ irony. Uh you can employ can employ irony. Uh you can employ hyperbole. hyperbole. hyperbole. You can employ a sort of performative You can employ a sort of performative You can employ a sort of performative self-parody. self-parody. self-parody. All of them obfiscating All of them obfiscating All of them obfiscating who you really are, but sneaking in the who you really are, but sneaking in the who you really are, but sneaking in the whole time. I mean, I sometimes say whole time. I mean, I sometimes say whole time. I mean, I sometimes say puckishly like there's no such thing as puckishly like there's no such thing as puckishly like there's no such thing as a joke. I mean, obviously there is such a joke. I mean, obviously there is such a joke. I mean, obviously there is such a thing as a joke, but there's a sense a thing as a joke, but there's a sense a thing as a joke, but there's a sense in which all jokes contain a masked in which all jokes contain a masked in which all jokes contain a masked truth. And so there's a c you can be truth. And so there's a c you can be truth. And so there's a c you can be racist as a joke uh up to a point I racist as a joke uh up to a point I racist as a joke uh up to a point I guess, but there comes a time when guess, but there comes a time when guess, but there comes a time when actually you're just being racist. actually you're just being racist. actually you're just being racist. Yeah. What's that line about um Yeah. What's that line about um Yeah. What's that line about um any organization that starts out uh any organization that starts out uh any organization that starts out uh pretending to be a cult or making a joke pretending to be a cult or making a joke pretending to be a cult or making a joke about being a cult eventually becomes a about being a cult eventually becomes a about being a cult eventually becomes a cult. cult. cult. Very true. And so there's this kind of Very true. And so there's this kind of Very true. And so there's this kind of double-edged challenge that I had in double-edged challenge that I had in double-edged challenge that I had in making a program um of wanting to take making a program um of wanting to take making a program um of wanting to take it seriously as a subject and not it seriously as a subject and not it seriously as a subject and not wanting to take it more seriously than wanting to take it more seriously than wanting to take it more seriously than it deserved. it deserved. it deserved. >> Right? I think there's elements there's >> Right? I think there's elements there's >> Right? I think there's elements there's elements in all these kinds of stories elements in all these kinds of stories elements in all these kinds of stories where you have to uh you can't fall into where you have to uh you can't fall into where you have to uh you can't fall into the trap of seeing it as a of being a the trap of seeing it as a of being a the trap of seeing it as a of being a part of a moral panic. You know, there's part of a moral panic. You know, there's part of a moral panic. You know, there's a sense in which you have to keep things a sense in which you have to keep things a sense in which you have to keep things in proportion. I do think that kids, in proportion. I do think that kids, in proportion. I do think that kids, youngsters are very often able to read youngsters are very often able to read youngsters are very often able to read media in a way that is quite subtle, you media in a way that is quite subtle, you media in a way that is quite subtle, you know, and they they can see the parts of know, and they they can see the parts of know, and they they can see the parts of it that are performative. Like I'm an it that are performative. Like I'm an it that are performative. Like I'm an old school fan of rap. Like I I used to old school fan of rap. Like I I used to old school fan of rap. Like I I used to listen to some of the lyrics if you took listen to some of the lyrics if you took listen to some of the lyrics if you took them literally are horrific. They're them literally are horrific. They're them literally are horrific. They're literally about, you know, going around literally about, you know, going around literally about, you know, going around killing people and um just committing killing people and um just committing killing people and um just committing violence and uh you know, I'm talking violence and uh you know, I'm talking violence and uh you know, I'm talking about old school NWA and and and and Ice about old school NWA and and and and Ice about old school NWA and and and and Ice Cube Easy E and and then uh that whole Cube Easy E and and then uh that whole Cube Easy E and and then uh that whole era and you know, Tupac to an extent era and you know, Tupac to an extent era and you know, Tupac to an extent even to this day like I still like a lot even to this day like I still like a lot even to this day like I still like a lot of grime and and drill music, but um you of grime and and drill music, but um you of grime and and drill music, but um you sort of learned how to read it as not sort of learned how to read it as not sort of learned how to read it as not completely literal. So with in the completely literal. So with in the completely literal. So with in the manosphere there's a similar there's a manosphere there's a similar there's a manosphere there's a similar there's a similar issue which is how what parts of similar issue which is how what parts of similar issue which is how what parts of this um you know you don't want to you this um you know you don't want to you this um you know you don't want to you got to I I try and employ enough of my got to I I try and employ enough of my got to I I try and employ enough of my own irony enough of my own sort of sense own irony enough of my own sort of sense own irony enough of my own sort of sense of recognizing the parts of it that are of recognizing the parts of it that are of recognizing the parts of it that are playful and irreverent and almost kind playful and irreverent and almost kind playful and irreverent and almost kind of enjoyably outrageous and then the of enjoyably outrageous and then the of enjoyably outrageous and then the parts of it that are uh just over the parts of it that are uh just over the parts of it that are uh just over the line uh abusive bullying um and line uh abusive bullying um and line uh abusive bullying um and factually wildly incorrect because the factually wildly incorrect because the factually wildly incorrect because the flip side of having a world which flip side of having a world which flip side of having a world which everyone has a media channel. It's not everyone has a media channel. It's not everyone has a media channel. It's not just oh we all have an ability to become just oh we all have an ability to become just oh we all have an ability to become celebrities and perform ourselves in celebrities and perform ourselves in celebrities and perform ourselves in public but nothing is curated. And so public but nothing is curated. And so public but nothing is curated. And so suddenly we're in a world where it's suddenly we're in a world where it's suddenly we're in a world where it's widely believed by many young people widely believed by many young people widely believed by many young people that the earth is flat. It's become that the earth is flat. It's become that the earth is flat. It's become relatively normal to say that um the relatively normal to say that um the relatively normal to say that um the pyramids were built by space aliens. pyramids were built by space aliens. pyramids were built by space aliens. They doubt whether we've been to the They doubt whether we've been to the They doubt whether we've been to the moon. I mean, call me oldfashioned, but moon. I mean, call me oldfashioned, but moon. I mean, call me oldfashioned, but it's like I have a I have limited it's like I have a I have limited it's like I have a I have limited patience for that kind of nonsense. patience for that kind of nonsense. patience for that kind of nonsense. >> One of the things that makes me think >> One of the things that makes me think >> One of the things that makes me think of, do you remember the period the sort of, do you remember the period the sort of, do you remember the period the sort of the golden era of American comedy of the golden era of American comedy of the golden era of American comedy movies? Stuff like Anchor Man, movies? Stuff like Anchor Man, movies? Stuff like Anchor Man, Tallaladega Nights, Will Ferrell, Step Tallaladega Nights, Will Ferrell, Step Tallaladega Nights, Will Ferrell, Step Brothers, and what me and my friends at Brothers, and what me and my friends at Brothers, and what me and my friends at university used to do, we'd quote those university used to do, we'd quote those university used to do, we'd quote those movies, you know, you'd make those joke, movies, you know, you'd make those joke, movies, you know, you'd make those joke, I love lamp, or you know, like, wow, I love lamp, or you know, like, wow, I love lamp, or you know, like, wow, that escalated quickly or rich mahogany that escalated quickly or rich mahogany that escalated quickly or rich mahogany and stuff. Those would be the quotes and stuff. Those would be the quotes and stuff. Those would be the quotes that we would make. I get the sense that that we would make. I get the sense that that we would make. I get the sense that a lot of what you're seeing here is kind a lot of what you're seeing here is kind a lot of what you're seeing here is kind of taking the place of that. It's people of taking the place of that. It's people of taking the place of that. It's people who are uh sufficiently who are uh sufficiently who are uh sufficiently engaging and viral and outrageous and engaging and viral and outrageous and engaging and viral and outrageous and uh signature in their style. uh signature in their style. uh signature in their style. >> Mhm. that uh creates this sort of meme >> Mhm. that uh creates this sort of meme >> Mhm. that uh creates this sort of meme culture below it where it's just things. culture below it where it's just things. culture below it where it's just things. It's it's it's catchphrases and and and It's it's it's catchphrases and and and It's it's it's catchphrases and and and ways of talking and and and little uh ways of talking and and and little uh ways of talking and and and little uh artifacts, little cultural artifacts artifacts, little cultural artifacts artifacts, little cultural artifacts that show that you watch this thing as that show that you watch this thing as that show that you watch this thing as well. And um I get the sense that that's well. And um I get the sense that that's well. And um I get the sense that that's a lot of it is is that and the a lot of it is is that and the a lot of it is is that and the difference is nobody looked at Will difference is nobody looked at Will difference is nobody looked at Will Ferrell and thought well that's how you Ferrell and thought well that's how you Ferrell and thought well that's how you should that's how a news reporter is should that's how a news reporter is should that's how a news reporter is supposed to behave or that's what a news supposed to behave or that's what a news supposed to behave or that's what a news reporter is doing. But because the line reporter is doing. But because the line reporter is doing. But because the line between entertainment and real life has between entertainment and real life has between entertainment and real life has now been blurred so much it's live now been blurred so much it's live now been blurred so much it's live streaming but it's also entertainment. streaming but it's also entertainment. streaming but it's also entertainment. So well is it live? Is this life or is So well is it live? Is this life or is So well is it live? Is this life or is it more kayfabe? it more kayfabe? it more kayfabe? >> I I'd agree. I think um you know for me >> I I'd agree. I think um you know for me >> I I'd agree. I think um you know for me it was it was both alternative comedy of it was it was both alternative comedy of it was it was both alternative comedy of the 80s who who I looked up to and then the 80s who who I looked up to and then the 80s who who I looked up to and then maybe when I was a little younger you maybe when I was a little younger you maybe when I was a little younger you aspired to be that outlaw archetype aspired to be that outlaw archetype aspired to be that outlaw archetype whether it was on something like the A whether it was on something like the A whether it was on something like the A team or the professionals or you know team or the professionals or you know team or the professionals or you know just a badass, a cowboy, a a maverick just a badass, a cowboy, a a maverick just a badass, a cowboy, a a maverick cop. Um and and then you know pop music cop. Um and and then you know pop music cop. Um and and then you know pop music for me later on rappers, people who for me later on rappers, people who for me later on rappers, people who impersonated or or affected a kind of an impersonated or or affected a kind of an impersonated or or affected a kind of an outlaw swagger uh of being outlaw swagger uh of being outlaw swagger uh of being unapologetically into fast cars, having unapologetically into fast cars, having unapologetically into fast cars, having big muscles, flexing how much money you big muscles, flexing how much money you big muscles, flexing how much money you had. I of you know the you to meet had. I of you know the you to meet had. I of you know the you to meet YouTube you talk to kids nowadays uh YouTube you talk to kids nowadays uh YouTube you talk to kids nowadays uh that age eight nine 10 ask them what that age eight nine 10 ask them what that age eight nine 10 ask them what they want to do they'll say I want to they want to do they'll say I want to they want to do they'll say I want to either be a footballer or a YouTuber or either be a footballer or a YouTuber or either be a footballer or a YouTuber or I want to be uh either you know I want to be uh either you know I want to be uh either you know astronaut or a YouTuber but YouTuber is astronaut or a YouTuber but YouTuber is astronaut or a YouTuber but YouTuber is basically number one and you know it's basically number one and you know it's basically number one and you know it's kind of in a way you know every kind of in a way you know every kind of in a way you know every generation comes up and thinks how am I generation comes up and thinks how am I generation comes up and thinks how am I different from my parents like what have different from my parents like what have different from my parents like what have I got that doesn't that belongs to me I got that doesn't that belongs to me I got that doesn't that belongs to me that they don't really get you know and that they don't really get you know and that they don't really get you know and uh but you know, part that's part of uh but you know, part that's part of uh but you know, part that's part of cultural regeneration and actually in cultural regeneration and actually in cultural regeneration and actually in almost Darwinian terms, this sort of almost Darwinian terms, this sort of almost Darwinian terms, this sort of sense of like you join the bachelor sense of like you join the bachelor sense of like you join the bachelor herd, you leave the the family unit and herd, you leave the the family unit and herd, you leave the the family unit and you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you begin to birth an identity uh with your begin to birth an identity uh with your begin to birth an identity uh with your peer group that's independent of the one peer group that's independent of the one peer group that's independent of the one that you've evolved in the family that you've evolved in the family that you've evolved in the family setting and and alongside that go setting and and alongside that go setting and and alongside that go certain archetypes of role models and certain archetypes of role models and certain archetypes of role models and and and and so this YouTuber community and and and so this YouTuber community and and and so this YouTuber community is like they're their version of of punk is like they're their version of of punk is like they're their version of of punk uh alternative comedy and and rap all uh alternative comedy and and rap all uh alternative comedy and and rap all kind of rolled into one. But the tr the kind of rolled into one. But the tr the kind of rolled into one. But the tr the danger is uh that the the stage is no danger is uh that the the stage is no danger is uh that the the stage is no longer just a literal stage like you longer just a literal stage like you longer just a literal stage like you know on the set of Top of the Pops or know on the set of Top of the Pops or know on the set of Top of the Pops or whatever. the stage is now the real whatever. the stage is now the real whatever. the stage is now the real world and and and unlike in the old days world and and and unlike in the old days world and and and unlike in the old days where there were supervisors like in the where there were supervisors like in the where there were supervisors like in the BBC you know watching like something on BBC you know watching like something on BBC you know watching like something on the BBC TV show or whatever alternative the BBC TV show or whatever alternative the BBC TV show or whatever alternative comedy show you had old men in suits comedy show you had old men in suits comedy show you had old men in suits saying like actually you can't make that saying like actually you can't make that saying like actually you can't make that joke and you know this bit's going to joke and you know this bit's going to joke and you know this bit's going to have to be cut off and you know that's a have to be cut off and you know that's a have to be cut off and you know that's a this is going out before 9:00 you can't this is going out before 9:00 you can't this is going out before 9:00 you can't have people in scantily clad outfits have people in scantily clad outfits have people in scantily clad outfits like everything was invigilated and like everything was invigilated and like everything was invigilated and scrutinized for its appropriateness for scrutinized for its appropriateness for scrutinized for its appropriateness for a specific vulnerable audience Right. a specific vulnerable audience Right. a specific vulnerable audience Right. But that's all gone out of the window. But that's all gone out of the window. But that's all gone out of the window. You and so kids are on their phones You and so kids are on their phones You and so kids are on their phones watching endless scroll of stream of watching endless scroll of stream of watching endless scroll of stream of content that's maximized for engagement. content that's maximized for engagement. content that's maximized for engagement. You know, it's the opposite of how it You know, it's the opposite of how it You know, it's the opposite of how it used to be. It's maximized for audience used to be. It's maximized for audience used to be. It's maximized for audience engagement. So that if it's women who engagement. So that if it's women who engagement. So that if it's women who are half naked and uh guys with muscles are half naked and uh guys with muscles are half naked and uh guys with muscles and inappropriate jokes, that's pushed and inappropriate jokes, that's pushed and inappropriate jokes, that's pushed to the top of the algorithm. Uh, and to the top of the algorithm. Uh, and to the top of the algorithm. Uh, and it's I don't want to s sound like an old it's I don't want to s sound like an old it's I don't want to s sound like an old fart, but maybe maybe that's okay. Like, fart, but maybe maybe that's okay. Like, fart, but maybe maybe that's okay. Like, you know, it's just a weird maybe, you you know, it's just a weird maybe, you you know, it's just a weird maybe, you know. Yeah. I mean, it's and parts of know. Yeah. I mean, it's and parts of know. Yeah. I mean, it's and parts of that are exciting, you know. I I'm that are exciting, you know. I I'm that are exciting, you know. I I'm really there's parts of the kind of um really there's parts of the kind of um really there's parts of the kind of um the new media landscape that genuinely the new media landscape that genuinely the new media landscape that genuinely like as a fan of pranks, like there's like as a fan of pranks, like there's like as a fan of pranks, like there's some of the pranks are are funny. As a some of the pranks are are funny. As a some of the pranks are are funny. As a fan of like documentary, like fact-based fan of like documentary, like fact-based fan of like documentary, like fact-based interactions, interactions, interactions, I enjoy that. like stuff that goes viral I enjoy that. like stuff that goes viral I enjoy that. like stuff that goes viral because it's a weird encounter or because it's a weird encounter or because it's a weird encounter or something's awkward or but um but something's awkward or but um but something's awkward or but um but there's no guard rails that I can see there's no guard rails that I can see there's no guard rails that I can see and the people who are rising to the top and the people who are rising to the top and the people who are rising to the top of the heap uh are people like Andrew of the heap uh are people like Andrew of the heap uh are people like Andrew Tate, Nico HS and the last thing I'll Tate, Nico HS and the last thing I'll Tate, Nico HS and the last thing I'll say on that is and behind all of that say on that is and behind all of that say on that is and behind all of that and maybe this was the discovery going and maybe this was the discovery going and maybe this was the discovery going into the documentary behind all of that into the documentary behind all of that into the documentary behind all of that is is an upsell is is is a is an attempt is is an upsell is is is a is an attempt is is an upsell is is is a is an attempt to convert your eyeballs into sales for to convert your eyeballs into sales for to convert your eyeballs into sales for some crappy product like a highly some crappy product like a highly some crappy product like a highly dubious online university, a dubious online university, a dubious online university, a questionable crypto questionable crypto questionable crypto project, an FX trading platform. And project, an FX trading platform. And project, an FX trading platform. And because you these are your heroes, you because you these are your heroes, you because you these are your heroes, you know, these are the people you admire, know, these are the people you admire, know, these are the people you admire, then you uh you end up, you know, some then you uh you end up, you know, some then you uh you end up, you know, some portion of those viewers end up buying portion of those viewers end up buying portion of those viewers end up buying these crappy products. these crappy products. these crappy products. >> What do you think is driving this trend? >> What do you think is driving this trend? >> What do you think is driving this trend? Why around men's issues? Why not around Why around men's issues? Why not around Why around men's issues? Why not around something else? something else? something else? Well, I think it exists among women as Well, I think it exists among women as Well, I think it exists among women as well, but in a different form. I mean, well, but in a different form. I mean, well, but in a different form. I mean, it's not something I've studied, but my it's not something I've studied, but my it's not something I've studied, but my instinct would be that there's a kind of instinct would be that there's a kind of instinct would be that there's a kind of Kim Kardashian, Kim Kardashian, Kim Kardashian, maybe even Bonnie Blue sort of adjacent maybe even Bonnie Blue sort of adjacent maybe even Bonnie Blue sort of adjacent realm of realm of realm of induced insecurity about looks that induced insecurity about looks that induced insecurity about looks that involves the upselling of um sponsored involves the upselling of um sponsored involves the upselling of um sponsored content and uh questionable beauty content and uh questionable beauty content and uh questionable beauty products. Like, you know, I'm not a huge products. Like, you know, I'm not a huge products. Like, you know, I'm not a huge fan of the whole Instagram look. like I fan of the whole Instagram look. like I fan of the whole Instagram look. like I I feel like that there's a whole new I feel like that there's a whole new I feel like that there's a whole new female archetype that's being hatched female archetype that's being hatched female archetype that's being hatched that is I I I don't it's like I I quite that is I I I don't it's like I I quite that is I I I don't it's like I I quite like people to look that you know like people to look that you know like people to look that you know natural for one of a better term. Um but natural for one of a better term. Um but natural for one of a better term. Um but I get that I don't I don't get to set I get that I don't I don't get to set I get that I don't I don't get to set the um the beauty norms. I think for men the um the beauty norms. I think for men the um the beauty norms. I think for men um well they say Instagram is a way for um well they say Instagram is a way for um well they say Instagram is a way for you to compare your insides with other you to compare your insides with other you to compare your insides with other people's outsides. So, um, if like a people's outsides. So, um, if like a people's outsides. So, um, if like a lot, you know, like I joke that I was an lot, you know, like I joke that I was an lot, you know, like I joke that I was an insult before it was fashionable. Like I insult before it was fashionable. Like I insult before it was fashionable. Like I can relate, can relate, can relate, you know, I can relate to the feeling of you know, I can relate to the feeling of you know, I can relate to the feeling of like, wow, why am I why am I the only like, wow, why am I why am I the only like, wow, why am I why am I the only one with a dance card with no names on one with a dance card with no names on one with a dance card with no names on it? You know, I was saying to someone it? You know, I was saying to someone it? You know, I was saying to someone earlier today like that Moresy lyric, earlier today like that Moresy lyric, earlier today like that Moresy lyric, there's a club. If you'd like to go, you there's a club. If you'd like to go, you there's a club. If you'd like to go, you could meet somebody who really loves could meet somebody who really loves could meet somebody who really loves you. So, you go and you stand on your you. So, you go and you stand on your you. So, you go and you stand on your own and you leave on your own and you go own and you leave on your own and you go own and you leave on your own and you go home and you cry and you want to die home and you cry and you want to die home and you cry and you want to die from how soon is now. like that's from how soon is now. like that's from how soon is now. like that's slightly in that could be the incel slightly in that could be the incel slightly in that could be the incel anthem. Um, so I understand why men, anthem. Um, so I understand why men, anthem. Um, so I understand why men, especially young men, cuz I think that's especially young men, cuz I think that's especially young men, cuz I think that's important. Like we, it's not guy, for important. Like we, it's not guy, for important. Like we, it's not guy, for the most part, this isn't guys in their the most part, this isn't guys in their the most part, this isn't guys in their 30s and 40s. This is teenagers, 30s and 40s. This is teenagers, 30s and 40s. This is teenagers, um, 14 through 18 and 20. And I'd say um, 14 through 18 and 20. And I'd say um, 14 through 18 and 20. And I'd say that based on hanging out with spending that based on hanging out with spending that based on hanging out with spending time filming with HS TikToki, Sneo, uh, time filming with HS TikToki, Sneo, uh, time filming with HS TikToki, Sneo, uh, and others and and seeing like this is and others and and seeing like this is and others and and seeing like this is like sometimes even 9 years old, 10 like sometimes even 9 years old, 10 like sometimes even 9 years old, 10 years old coming up and saying like, years old coming up and saying like, years old coming up and saying like, "Oh, mate, I love you. Uh, you're the "Oh, mate, I love you. Uh, you're the "Oh, mate, I love you. Uh, you're the best." So they're they're kids, uh, some best." So they're they're kids, uh, some best." So they're they're kids, uh, some of them, uh, and certainly young men who of them, uh, and certainly young men who of them, uh, and certainly young men who are trying to figure out where they fit are trying to figure out where they fit are trying to figure out where they fit in in life. And in a world where many of in in life. And in a world where many of in in life. And in a world where many of the old entitlements and certainties the old entitlements and certainties the old entitlements and certainties have been eroded and um in which they have been eroded and um in which they have been eroded and um in which they don't know uh you know they they they're don't know uh you know they they they're don't know uh you know they they they're looking for some sort of parasocial looking for some sort of parasocial looking for some sort of parasocial relationship or sense of connection and relationship or sense of connection and relationship or sense of connection and um and they want big muscles and and a um and they want big muscles and and a um and they want big muscles and and a big fast car and lots of money and big fast car and lots of money and big fast car and lots of money and that's that sort of speaks for itself, that's that sort of speaks for itself, that's that sort of speaks for itself, right? right? right? >> Yeah. I it's a good point around the >> Yeah. I it's a good point around the >> Yeah. I it's a good point around the age. I don't really think about it that age. I don't really think about it that age. I don't really think about it that much. the audience for my podcast, which much. the audience for my podcast, which much. the audience for my podcast, which is many of whom are men, is there's is many of whom are men, is there's is many of whom are men, is there's basically nobody below 18 and a big big basically nobody below 18 and a big big basically nobody below 18 and a big big big chunk of them are sort of 20 to 40. big chunk of them are sort of 20 to 40. big chunk of them are sort of 20 to 40. So I don't really think about those So I don't really think about those So I don't really think about those young kids. young kids. young kids. I guess what's interesting is yeah, I guess what's interesting is yeah, I guess what's interesting is yeah, maybe if you talk about the removal of maybe if you talk about the removal of maybe if you talk about the removal of previous role models, previous role models, previous role models, the paths toward legitimacy that men the paths toward legitimacy that men the paths toward legitimacy that men would have been able to hold on to in would have been able to hold on to in would have been able to hold on to in the past that are no longer there, the past that are no longer there, the past that are no longer there, socioeconomic imbalance between women's socioeconomic imbalance between women's socioeconomic imbalance between women's performance and men's performance. performance and men's performance. performance and men's performance. I I don't know how I don't know how many I I don't know how I don't know how many I I don't know how I don't know how many of of of kids that are 11 years old of thinking kids that are 11 years old of thinking kids that are 11 years old of thinking about that, factoring that in. So, I about that, factoring that in. So, I about that, factoring that in. So, I don't know that that explanatory don't know that that explanatory don't know that that explanatory mechanism does work if you're 22, but mechanism does work if you're 22, but mechanism does work if you're 22, but I'm not convinced. And you've had time I'm not convinced. And you've had time I'm not convinced. And you've had time to kind of be rebuffed by a world that to kind of be rebuffed by a world that to kind of be rebuffed by a world that you felt you were promised but never got you felt you were promised but never got you felt you were promised but never got delivered to you. But I I'm not delivered to you. But I I'm not delivered to you. But I I'm not convinced that that's the same. So maybe convinced that that's the same. So maybe convinced that that's the same. So maybe it's more entertainment, but there's it's more entertainment, but there's it's more entertainment, but there's less ability to discern whether this is less ability to discern whether this is less ability to discern whether this is something that's a turned up to 11 joke something that's a turned up to 11 joke something that's a turned up to 11 joke or it's exaggerated or caricatured for or it's exaggerated or caricatured for or it's exaggerated or caricatured for comic effect or is completely not meant comic effect or is completely not meant comic effect or is completely not meant seriously or something else. You know, seriously or something else. You know, seriously or something else. You know, it's a good point. I I suspect it's it's it's a good point. I I suspect it's it's it's a good point. I I suspect it's it's a little bit all of the above. I do a little bit all of the above. I do a little bit all of the above. I do think that um in in one sense if the if think that um in in one sense if the if think that um in in one sense if the if if Tik Tok had it existed in the 18th if Tik Tok had it existed in the 18th if Tik Tok had it existed in the 18th century century century or let's say 19th century at a time when or let's say 19th century at a time when or let's say 19th century at a time when there were there were uh jobs in there were there were uh jobs in there were there were uh jobs in factories and kind of traditional gender factories and kind of traditional gender factories and kind of traditional gender norms and archetypes and I I still think norms and archetypes and I I still think norms and archetypes and I I still think actually people would been kids young actually people would been kids young actually people would been kids young men would be enormously beguiled by it men would be enormously beguiled by it men would be enormously beguiled by it like there's a sense in which none of like there's a sense in which none of like there's a sense in which none of the messaging you know you look at the messaging you know you look at the messaging you know you look at Andrew Tate's messaging a lot of it Andrew Tate's messaging a lot of it Andrew Tate's messaging a lot of it seems seems to be derived from books seems seems to be derived from books seems seems to be derived from books like uh iceberg slims books where it's like uh iceberg slims books where it's like uh iceberg slims books where it's about the pimp culture of the 50s and about the pimp culture of the 50s and about the pimp culture of the 50s and 60s, 60s, 60s, you know, it's this sort of sense of you know, it's this sort of sense of you know, it's this sort of sense of which uh I can the idea I can teach you which uh I can the idea I can teach you which uh I can the idea I can teach you how women think and actually how women think and actually how women think and actually you can't take women at their word. you can't take women at their word. you can't take women at their word. They've got a different it's they got a They've got a different it's they got a They've got a different it's they got a whole different vocabulary. sort of like whole different vocabulary. sort of like whole different vocabulary. sort of like erroneous notions of like oh um breaking erroneous notions of like oh um breaking erroneous notions of like oh um breaking people's spirit and you you know ugly people's spirit and you you know ugly people's spirit and you you know ugly dark stuff but it's gone viral as a side dark stuff but it's gone viral as a side dark stuff but it's gone viral as a side effect of a of an algorithm. So I think effect of a of an algorithm. So I think effect of a of an algorithm. So I think partly you know even without the partly you know even without the partly you know even without the collapse of manufacturing collapse of manufacturing collapse of manufacturing in in the west you know parts of the in in the west you know parts of the in in the west you know parts of the west and and even without the entry of west and and even without the entry of west and and even without the entry of women into the workplace and even women into the workplace and even women into the workplace and even without an attempt to be less without an attempt to be less without an attempt to be less prescriptive about what gender roles prescriptive about what gender roles prescriptive about what gender roles look like look like look like >> it would still be enormously enticing. >> it would still be enormously enticing. >> it would still be enormously enticing. Uh but then you add in some of those Uh but then you add in some of those Uh but then you add in some of those other things um and clearly it's even other things um and clearly it's even other things um and clearly it's even more the case. I mean, I I don't know more the case. I mean, I I don't know more the case. I mean, I I don't know like if you're 12 or 13, you may not be like if you're 12 or 13, you may not be like if you're 12 or 13, you may not be thinking about um entering the thinking about um entering the thinking about um entering the workplace, but you obviously are workplace, but you obviously are workplace, but you obviously are thinking about thinking about thinking about >> in some way aspiring to be more than you >> in some way aspiring to be more than you >> in some way aspiring to be more than you are, you know, in in fairly basic ways. are, you know, in in fairly basic ways. are, you know, in in fairly basic ways. >> Trust really is everything when it comes >> Trust really is everything when it comes >> Trust really is everything when it comes to supplements. A lot of brands may say to supplements. A lot of brands may say to supplements. 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What do you think the manosphere that What do you think the manosphere that What do you think the manosphere that you saw is trying to remedy in the you saw is trying to remedy in the you saw is trying to remedy in the world? What are they seeking to world? What are they seeking to world? What are they seeking to achieve? achieve? achieve? Well, I mean I think you might be giving Well, I mean I think you might be giving Well, I mean I think you might be giving them a little too much credit. Like I them a little too much credit. Like I them a little too much credit. Like I think they're trying to remedy their think they're trying to remedy their think they're trying to remedy their pocketbooks to a great extent. You know pocketbooks to a great extent. You know pocketbooks to a great extent. You know what I mean? what I mean? what I mean? They're trying to achieve wealth uh for They're trying to achieve wealth uh for They're trying to achieve wealth uh for themselves. Um and you could say that themselves. Um and you could say that themselves. Um and you could say that doesn't explain everything like well doesn't explain everything like well doesn't explain everything like well they could do that by um you know I they could do that by um you know I they could do that by um you know I don't know going out prospecting or don't know going out prospecting or don't know going out prospecting or trying to find sunken ships. But um but trying to find sunken ships. But um but trying to find sunken ships. But um but they clearly uh uh they clearly have they clearly uh uh they clearly have they clearly uh uh they clearly have found a way of connecting by by in a found a way of connecting by by in a found a way of connecting by by in a sense appealing to the parts of I I I sense appealing to the parts of I I I sense appealing to the parts of I I I would argue the less evolved the less would argue the less evolved the less would argue the less evolved the less meritorious the more primitive parts of meritorious the more primitive parts of meritorious the more primitive parts of our identities right there's a sort of our identities right there's a sort of our identities right there's a sort of um what we're seeing living through is a um what we're seeing living through is a um what we're seeing living through is a is a is a time in which our our most is a is a time in which our our most is a is a time in which our our most primal urges you know our kind of primal urges you know our kind of primal urges you know our kind of evolutionary strategy ies, our drives evolutionary strategy ies, our drives evolutionary strategy ies, our drives towards um whether it's sexual or towards um whether it's sexual or towards um whether it's sexual or tribal, you know, those parts that are tribal, you know, those parts that are tribal, you know, those parts that are controlled by the amygdala like deep controlled by the amygdala like deep controlled by the amygdala like deep inside the reptile brain have been inside the reptile brain have been inside the reptile brain have been connected to the most high techch uh connected to the most high techch uh connected to the most high techch uh forms of technology and and so you know forms of technology and and so you know forms of technology and and so you know we and we're defenseless you know we I we and we're defenseless you know we I we and we're defenseless you know we I don't want to sound super kind of don't want to sound super kind of don't want to sound super kind of neodyarwinian but you know the sense neodyarwinian but you know the sense neodyarwinian but you know the sense which we are still living with our own which we are still living with our own which we are still living with our own kind of software uh which was evolved on kind of software uh which was evolved on kind of software uh which was evolved on the savas of Africa the savas of Africa the savas of Africa and um and and is adaptive to certain and um and and is adaptive to certain and um and and is adaptive to certain situations there, fight and flight and situations there, fight and flight and situations there, fight and flight and whatnot. And then uh and then so when whatnot. And then uh and then so when whatnot. And then uh and then so when someone when those are deployed and someone when those are deployed and someone when those are deployed and weaponized against us on on social weaponized against us on on social weaponized against us on on social media, we are somewhat defenseless. Uh I media, we are somewhat defenseless. Uh I media, we are somewhat defenseless. Uh I would say what I suppose you could say, would say what I suppose you could say, would say what I suppose you could say, well, what do they say that they're well, what do they say that they're well, what do they say that they're attempting to remedy? They would say attempting to remedy? They would say attempting to remedy? They would say they're attempting to remedy an overly they're attempting to remedy an overly they're attempting to remedy an overly woke uh culture, a culture in which men woke uh culture, a culture in which men woke uh culture, a culture in which men have lost touch with what it means to be have lost touch with what it means to be have lost touch with what it means to be a man. uh in which women I mean to quote a man. uh in which women I mean to quote a man. uh in which women I mean to quote Myin Gaines, one of the main people I Myin Gaines, one of the main people I Myin Gaines, one of the main people I speak to is is a guy called Myin Gaines. speak to is is a guy called Myin Gaines. speak to is is a guy called Myin Gaines. Are you familiar with him? Yes. So, he's Are you familiar with him? Yes. So, he's Are you familiar with him? Yes. So, he's part of a d a double act called Fresh part of a d a double act called Fresh part of a d a double act called Fresh and Fit. They have a podcast in Miami. and Fit. They have a podcast in Miami. and Fit. They have a podcast in Miami. Uh their content is is very extreme and Uh their content is is very extreme and Uh their content is is very extreme and Myron Gaines wrote a book called Why Myron Gaines wrote a book called Why Myron Gaines wrote a book called Why Women Deserve Less. And his idea his Women Deserve Less. And his idea his Women Deserve Less. And his idea his whole uh message is that women have been whole uh message is that women have been whole uh message is that women have been pampered and they are overent entitled. pampered and they are overent entitled. pampered and they are overent entitled. And as men we need to recognize that and And as men we need to recognize that and And as men we need to recognize that and give them less and everything will go give them less and everything will go give them less and everything will go more smoothly. And so his message would more smoothly. And so his message would more smoothly. And so his message would be um actually yeah men can hack the be um actually yeah men can hack the be um actually yeah men can hack the game of life. You know we I can teach game of life. You know we I can teach game of life. You know we I can teach you the cheat codes of life. A lot of it you the cheat codes of life. A lot of it you the cheat codes of life. A lot of it based on old PUA pickup artistry uh based on old PUA pickup artistry uh based on old PUA pickup artistry uh supposed hacks. you know, negging women. supposed hacks. you know, negging women. supposed hacks. you know, negging women. Um, recognizing that women are in their Um, recognizing that women are in their Um, recognizing that women are in their in their words or in their view status in their words or in their view status in their words or in their view status obsessed. Uh, and then you can build the obsessed. Uh, and then you can build the obsessed. Uh, and then you can build the life that you would like and would life that you would like and would life that you would like and would deserve deserve deserve by um employing his techniques. I I I by um employing his techniques. I I I by um employing his techniques. I I I mean there's a lot more that could be mean there's a lot more that could be mean there's a lot more that could be said about that. I mean, I found it so said about that. I mean, I found it so said about that. I mean, I found it so enimical to the way I think about the I enimical to the way I think about the I enimical to the way I think about the I mean, I was raised by a feminist mom, mean, I was raised by a feminist mom, mean, I was raised by a feminist mom, you know, and and and and in in South you know, and and and and in in South you know, and and and and in in South London in a world where Yeah. the that London in a world where Yeah. the that London in a world where Yeah. the that the idea, you know, my mom was a working the idea, you know, my mom was a working the idea, you know, my mom was a working mom. I grew up in the 70s in Southland. mom. I grew up in the 70s in Southland. mom. I grew up in the 70s in Southland. So, the idea these ideas are so alien to So, the idea these ideas are so alien to So, the idea these ideas are so alien to me that uh I had to kind of get my head me that uh I had to kind of get my head me that uh I had to kind of get my head around them. I think a lot of it seems around them. I think a lot of it seems around them. I think a lot of it seems to be based on his interactions with um to be based on his interactions with um to be based on his interactions with um cam girls and only fans models like in cam girls and only fans models like in cam girls and only fans models like in his world he's like all he when he's his world he's like all he when he's his world he's like all he when he's talking about women he only really seems talking about women he only really seems talking about women he only really seems to be talking about Instagram models and to be talking about Instagram models and to be talking about Instagram models and women who do a lot of social media like women who do a lot of social media like women who do a lot of social media like that that gets you some way down to that that gets you some way down to that that gets you some way down to understanding like what his mindset is. understanding like what his mindset is. understanding like what his mindset is. Um but within so within his sample group Um but within so within his sample group Um but within so within his sample group he's in this world where there's this he's in this world where there's this he's in this world where there's this competition in which all women one of competition in which all women one of competition in which all women one of his big things is like women can't his big things is like women can't his big things is like women can't shouldn't go on social media and if you shouldn't go on social media and if you shouldn't go on social media and if you have a girlfriend you got to keep her have a girlfriend you got to keep her have a girlfriend you got to keep her off social media. Um anyway I'm going on off social media. Um anyway I'm going on off social media. Um anyway I'm going on a bit of a tangent but their message is a bit of a tangent but their message is a bit of a tangent but their message is is is an unre it's too kind to call it is is an unre it's too kind to call it is is an unre it's too kind to call it old school. I think it's it's it's a old school. I think it's it's it's a old school. I think it's it's it's a sort of almost a pastiche of a maybe a sort of almost a pastiche of a maybe a sort of almost a pastiche of a maybe a kayfabe of but certainly a a parodic um kayfabe of but certainly a a parodic um kayfabe of but certainly a a parodic um sort of hyperbolic version of some old sort of hyperbolic version of some old sort of hyperbolic version of some old school um masculinity in which men school um masculinity in which men school um masculinity in which men should be able to have a sex sex with as should be able to have a sex sex with as should be able to have a sex sex with as many women as they like and women should many women as they like and women should many women as they like and women should really only be virgins until they marry really only be virgins until they marry really only be virgins until they marry and then um just sleep with their and then um just sleep with their and then um just sleep with their husbands. Maybe old school, but Genghask husbands. Maybe old school, but Genghask husbands. Maybe old school, but Genghask Khan old school. Khan old school. Khan old school. >> Yeah, maybe you take it back. Genghask >> Yeah, maybe you take it back. Genghask >> Yeah, maybe you take it back. Genghask Khan would be probably Khan would be probably Khan would be probably that would be their ultimate alpha. that would be their ultimate alpha. that would be their ultimate alpha. >> I look I think it's interesting for me >> I look I think it's interesting for me >> I look I think it's interesting for me having this conversation because I'm having this conversation because I'm having this conversation because I'm accused of being a part of the accused of being a part of the accused of being a part of the manosphere very regularly. I got in manosphere very regularly. I got in manosphere very regularly. I got in trouble at the start of this year and a trouble at the start of this year and a trouble at the start of this year and a lot of the I got for the first time ever lot of the I got for the first time ever lot of the I got for the first time ever I got called a luxer and um I realized I got called a luxer and um I realized I got called a luxer and um I realized when that happened I realized that luxer when that happened I realized that luxer when that happened I realized that luxer had taken the place of this sort of had taken the place of this sort of had taken the place of this sort of catchall term for some guy that we don't catchall term for some guy that we don't catchall term for some guy that we don't like and probably has icky beliefs. It like and probably has icky beliefs. It like and probably has icky beliefs. It would have previously been would have previously been would have previously been maybe some sort of rightwing maybe it maybe some sort of rightwing maybe it maybe some sort of rightwing maybe it would have been like like yeah like would have been like like yeah like would have been like like yeah like pickup artist or or something else. And pickup artist or or something else. And pickup artist or or something else. And um it's interesting watching um it's interesting watching um it's interesting watching your perspective your perspective your perspective from me as someone who the manosphere from me as someone who the manosphere from me as someone who the manosphere has got a huge problem with and I've has got a huge problem with and I've has got a huge problem with and I've never claimed to be a part of it and we never claimed to be a part of it and we never claimed to be a part of it and we disagree on a lot of things and the only disagree on a lot of things and the only disagree on a lot of things and the only real alignment that we have is that men real alignment that we have is that men real alignment that we have is that men watch our content. Uh, but I think what watch our content. Uh, but I think what watch our content. Uh, but I think what I'm taking from your perspective is that I'm taking from your perspective is that I'm taking from your perspective is that it's not necessarily you don't see this it's not necessarily you don't see this it's not necessarily you don't see this content as being missiondriven. Even if content as being missiondriven. Even if content as being missiondriven. Even if it's framed as being missiondriven, you it's framed as being missiondriven, you it's framed as being missiondriven, you see it as being see it as being see it as being selferving primarily for accumulating more fame and primarily for accumulating more fame and wealth for for creators. uh but it's wealth for for creators. uh but it's wealth for for creators. uh but it's done under the guise of this is part of done under the guise of this is part of done under the guise of this is part of a bigger mission that this is this is a a bigger mission that this is this is a a bigger mission that this is this is a a grander plan and that that appears to a grander plan and that that appears to a grander plan and that that appears to be an effective exploit kind of like in be an effective exploit kind of like in be an effective exploit kind of like in a computer game that there's been a a a a computer game that there's been a a a a computer game that there's been a a a hack that's been found and if you couch hack that's been found and if you couch hack that's been found and if you couch your pursuit for fame and money under a your pursuit for fame and money under a your pursuit for fame and money under a bigger bigger bigger desire for systemic change uh that seems desire for systemic change uh that seems desire for systemic change uh that seems to be that seems to be an effective way to be that seems to be an effective way to be that seems to be an effective way to sort of camouflage it. Is that to sort of camouflage it. Is that to sort of camouflage it. Is that >> representation? >> representation? >> representation? Definitely that I mean even to go Definitely that I mean even to go Definitely that I mean even to go further further further uh uh uh I think there's parts of it where it I think there's parts of it where it I think there's parts of it where it isn't even so much that it's camouflaged isn't even so much that it's camouflaged isn't even so much that it's camouflaged as missiondriven although it may be but as missiondriven although it may be but as missiondriven although it may be but also that it's um also that it's um also that it's um it's ex it's exploiting vulnerabilities it's ex it's exploiting vulnerabilities it's ex it's exploiting vulnerabilities or maybe deliberate parts of the or maybe deliberate parts of the or maybe deliberate parts of the algorithm in order to uh draw more algorithm in order to uh draw more algorithm in order to uh draw more eyeballs like in other words I don't eyeballs like in other words I don't eyeballs like in other words I don't even It's even Myron Gaines would say a even It's even Myron Gaines would say a even It's even Myron Gaines would say a lot of what he says to be is to be lot of what he says to be is to be lot of what he says to be is to be outrageous, you know, to get people's outrageous, you know, to get people's outrageous, you know, to get people's attention, to wake them up. Like they do attention, to wake them up. Like they do attention, to wake them up. Like they do sort of walk back. Some of the things sort of walk back. Some of the things sort of walk back. Some of the things they say are so horrific. I don't even they say are so horrific. I don't even they say are so horrific. I don't even want to really repeat them, but but you want to really repeat them, but but you want to really repeat them, but but you know, so sort of horrific in terms of know, so sort of horrific in terms of know, so sort of horrific in terms of seeming to endorse um sexual assault or seeming to endorse um sexual assault or seeming to endorse um sexual assault or certainly minimize it. um and saying certainly minimize it. um and saying certainly minimize it. um and saying things like, as I said, like the women things like, as I said, like the women things like, as I said, like the women shouldn't vote. Um I think he said at shouldn't vote. Um I think he said at shouldn't vote. Um I think he said at one point he thought gay people should one point he thought gay people should one point he thought gay people should be rounded up and put in special camps. be rounded up and put in special camps. be rounded up and put in special camps. Um Um Um so you I don't think I I don't know like so you I don't think I I don't know like so you I don't think I I don't know like I don't know that he necessarily I don't know that he necessarily I don't know that he necessarily believes that. In fact, if you talk to believes that. In fact, if you talk to believes that. In fact, if you talk to him, sometimes he'll start walking those him, sometimes he'll start walking those him, sometimes he'll start walking those back. So, so he'll be like, "Oh, well, back. So, so he'll be like, "Oh, well, back. So, so he'll be like, "Oh, well, I'm not literally saying what I mean is I'm not literally saying what I mean is I'm not literally saying what I mean is they start pausing it and sort of they start pausing it and sort of they start pausing it and sort of um making it sound more acceptable." um making it sound more acceptable." um making it sound more acceptable." But then you're right, there is a part But then you're right, there is a part But then you're right, there is a part of it where they are uh advocating a of it where they are uh advocating a of it where they are uh advocating a return to a certain more more male return to a certain more more male return to a certain more more male centered version of society. centered version of society. centered version of society. But actually, it would be wrong to say But actually, it would be wrong to say But actually, it would be wrong to say that that's their signature because that that's their signature because that that's their signature because there's plenty of people, conservatives, there's plenty of people, conservatives, there's plenty of people, conservatives, let's say, who who might take a similar let's say, who who might take a similar let's say, who who might take a similar position. position. position. Um, so that's not really their Um, so that's not really their Um, so that's not really their identifying characteristic. like the identifying characteristic. like the identifying characteristic. like the that really what singles them out and that really what singles them out and that really what singles them out and defines them as extreme manosphere is defines them as extreme manosphere is defines them as extreme manosphere is the willingness to embrace a kind of the willingness to embrace a kind of the willingness to embrace a kind of paranoid conspiratorial mindset to paranoid conspiratorial mindset to paranoid conspiratorial mindset to employ outrageous I would say utterly employ outrageous I would say utterly employ outrageous I would say utterly cynical clickbait based um content cynical clickbait based um content cynical clickbait based um content creation and then all of it with a view creation and then all of it with a view creation and then all of it with a view to grift like that behind it is a um is to grift like that behind it is a um is to grift like that behind it is a um is is a is it's it's an angle it's a it's is a is it's it's an angle it's a it's is a is it's it's an angle it's a it's an attempt to reach a market and someone an attempt to reach a market and someone an attempt to reach a market and someone like HS TikToki, he's he's born. Uh his like HS TikToki, he's he's born. Uh his like HS TikToki, he's he's born. Uh his like a lot of these guys, um single like a lot of these guys, um single like a lot of these guys, um single parent home, a home in which certainly parent home, a home in which certainly parent home, a home in which certainly for Tate, like the chaos in Tate's for Tate, like the chaos in Tate's for Tate, like the chaos in Tate's household growing up, he talked a lot household growing up, he talked a lot household growing up, he talked a lot about how his dad would come by and beat about how his dad would come by and beat about how his dad would come by and beat him up. You know, he you grow up real him up. You know, he you grow up real him up. You know, he you grow up real quick. One good ass whipping is one of quick. One good ass whipping is one of quick. One good ass whipping is one of his quotes. Like the idea that there's his quotes. Like the idea that there's his quotes. Like the idea that there's massive educational value in being massive educational value in being massive educational value in being beaten up by your dad is is kind of beaten up by your dad is is kind of beaten up by your dad is is kind of extraordinary extraordinary extraordinary and probably some kind of a compensation and probably some kind of a compensation and probably some kind of a compensation by him, right? Like some attempt to by him, right? Like some attempt to by him, right? Like some attempt to >> you've got this line you've got this >> you've got this line you've got this >> you've got this line you've got this line in the doc you say the romance, the line in the doc you say the romance, the line in the doc you say the romance, the confidence, the wealth were all either confidence, the wealth were all either confidence, the wealth were all either elucory or out of reach and the anger elucory or out of reach and the anger elucory or out of reach and the anger seemed a compensation for the fear of seemed a compensation for the fear of seemed a compensation for the fear of being exposed. Yeah. Well, uh, because actually that Yeah. Well, uh, because actually that they're telling they're say they're they're telling they're say they're they're telling they're say they're saying if you follow my part, if you if saying if you follow my part, if you if saying if you follow my part, if you if you take my advice, I'll teach I'll give you take my advice, I'll teach I'll give you take my advice, I'll teach I'll give you the cheat codes to life. I uh and you the cheat codes to life. I uh and you the cheat codes to life. I uh and you will be rich like me. But the way you will be rich like me. But the way you will be rich like me. But the way they teach you to be rich is generally they teach you to be rich is generally they teach you to be rich is generally not the way they got rich if they are not the way they got rich if they are not the way they got rich if they are rich because the other part of it is rich because the other part of it is rich because the other part of it is it's not clear how much of it is even it's not clear how much of it is even it's not clear how much of it is even real. Um, I mean I there's there's so real. Um, I mean I there's there's so real. Um, I mean I there's there's so much false content. There's so much much false content. There's so much much false content. There's so much misleading uh advertising misleading uh advertising misleading uh advertising in in my opinion. you know, the idea in in my opinion. you know, the idea in in my opinion. you know, the idea that, oh, if you want to be a that, oh, if you want to be a that, oh, if you want to be a multi-millionaire, multi-millionaire, multi-millionaire, uh, just do what I did and and and go on uh, just do what I did and and and go on uh, just do what I did and and and go on this FX trading platform, and you're this FX trading platform, and you're this FX trading platform, and you're thinking, actually, I'm pretty sure HS thinking, actually, I'm pretty sure HS thinking, actually, I'm pretty sure HS Ticky made his money by streaming for 10 Ticky made his money by streaming for 10 Ticky made his money by streaming for 10 hours a day, you know, and um, taking a hours a day, you know, and um, taking a hours a day, you know, and um, taking a cut of the products that he's selling, cut of the products that he's selling, cut of the products that he's selling, not by trading on FX, you know what I not by trading on FX, you know what I not by trading on FX, you know what I mean? and and so um there's a sort of uh mean? and and so um there's a sort of uh mean? and and so um there's a sort of uh a bait and switch going on. Uh and then a bait and switch going on. Uh and then a bait and switch going on. Uh and then with Tate specifically, he came up kind with Tate specifically, he came up kind with Tate specifically, he came up kind of as an offshoot of the PUA community, of as an offshoot of the PUA community, of as an offshoot of the PUA community, the pickup artistry community and then the pickup artistry community and then the pickup artistry community and then using this sort of Neil Strauss the game using this sort of Neil Strauss the game using this sort of Neil Strauss the game adjacent techniques in order to say that adjacent techniques in order to say that adjacent techniques in order to say that I can teach you the psychology of women I can teach you the psychology of women I can teach you the psychology of women and then you can run cam girls and you and then you can run cam girls and you and then you can run cam girls and you can be a pimp. you know, his one of his can be a pimp. you know, his one of his can be a pimp. you know, his one of his first products was the so-called um pimp first products was the so-called um pimp first products was the so-called um pimp pimp uh pimp and PhD pimp and hose pimp uh pimp and PhD pimp and hose pimp uh pimp and PhD pimp and hose degree. He's tried to walk that back degree. He's tried to walk that back degree. He's tried to walk that back now, but obviously the whole paper trail now, but obviously the whole paper trail now, but obviously the whole paper trail is there online and you know, describing is there online and you know, describing is there online and you know, describing how you have to get a girlfriend and how you have to get a girlfriend and how you have to get a girlfriend and have sex with her and then she'll fall have sex with her and then she'll fall have sex with her and then she'll fall in love with you and then you introduce in love with you and then you introduce in love with you and then you introduce her to Camming and then you take her her to Camming and then you take her her to Camming and then you take her money. money. money. >> Meanwhile, just can I add one thing to >> Meanwhile, just can I add one thing to >> Meanwhile, just can I add one thing to that? And then he'll say in other that? And then he'll say in other that? And then he'll say in other interviews, "Oh yeah, I did this thing interviews, "Oh yeah, I did this thing interviews, "Oh yeah, I did this thing where I taught people how to make money where I taught people how to make money where I taught people how to make money by being quote a pimp, but it doesn't by being quote a pimp, but it doesn't by being quote a pimp, but it doesn't really work cuz you you have to be like really work cuz you you have to be like really work cuz you you have to be like me to do it." Like you can't teach that. me to do it." Like you can't teach that. me to do it." Like you can't teach that. So the level of cynicism about their own So the level of cynicism about their own So the level of cynicism about their own products um is obviously extreme as products um is obviously extreme as products um is obviously extreme as well. A quick aside, if you've noticed well. A quick aside, if you've noticed well. A quick aside, if you've noticed your energy isn't quite what it used to your energy isn't quite what it used to your energy isn't quite what it used to be, even though you eat well and stay be, even though you eat well and stay be, even though you eat well and stay active, there might be a reason for active, there might be a reason for active, there might be a reason for that. As we age, our mitochondria, which that. As we age, our mitochondria, which that. As we age, our mitochondria, which is the parts of our cells that produce is the parts of our cells that produce is the parts of our cells that produce energy, become weaker and make less energy, become weaker and make less energy, become weaker and make less energy, which is why I am such a huge energy, which is why I am such a huge energy, which is why I am such a huge fan of Timeline. They developed this fan of Timeline. They developed this fan of Timeline. 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What's the link with childhood experiences here? You you mentioned sort experiences here? You you mentioned sort experiences here? You you mentioned sort of some patterns of fatherlessness or of some patterns of fatherlessness or of some patterns of fatherlessness or strife in the upbringings. Yeah. I mean, strife in the upbringings. Yeah. I mean, strife in the upbringings. Yeah. I mean, uh, I hesitate to play armchair uh, I hesitate to play armchair uh, I hesitate to play armchair psychologist, but let's do it anyway. psychologist, but let's do it anyway. psychologist, but let's do it anyway. It's definitely the case that of the It's definitely the case that of the It's definitely the case that of the people I interviewed, the ones whose people I interviewed, the ones whose people I interviewed, the ones whose backgrounds I looked into, that was the backgrounds I looked into, that was the backgrounds I looked into, that was the business guy, business guru, and friend business guy, business guru, and friend business guy, business guru, and friend of the Tates, Justin Waller. Um, and of the Tates, Justin Waller. Um, and of the Tates, Justin Waller. Um, and also HS Tickytalkie. also HS Tickytalkie. also HS Tickytalkie. Um, and Tate is obviously exhibit A. Um, and Tate is obviously exhibit A. Um, and Tate is obviously exhibit A. there was this sense in which there was there was this sense in which there was there was this sense in which there was no father figure present in the home you no father figure present in the home you no father figure present in the home you know uh as a sort of like know uh as a sort of like know uh as a sort of like self-identified self-identified self-identified progressive like um I I you know there's progressive like um I I you know there's progressive like um I I you know there's a part of me it's like uh actually I a part of me it's like uh actually I a part of me it's like uh actually I think all kinds of flavor of family can think all kinds of flavor of family can think all kinds of flavor of family can work but it's noticeable how much trauma work but it's noticeable how much trauma work but it's noticeable how much trauma there was um in the homes of these there was um in the homes of these there was um in the homes of these people and and also uh yeah just people and and also uh yeah just people and and also uh yeah just unpredictability you know it might even unpredictability you know it might even unpredictability you know it might even be the you know the the first go to be the you know the the first go to be the you know the the first go to would be like oh I guess a dad in a home would be like oh I guess a dad in a home would be like oh I guess a dad in a home would be good like I think I tend to would be good like I think I tend to would be good like I think I tend to think if it's an option you know I dads think if it's an option you know I dads think if it's an option you know I dads bring a lot to the table you know the bring a lot to the table you know the bring a lot to the table you know the risk of stating the obvious but just risk of stating the obvious but just risk of stating the obvious but just stability just some sense of like stability just some sense of like stability just some sense of like knowing that there's some regularity and knowing that there's some regularity and knowing that there's some regularity and some kind of sense of security in the some kind of sense of security in the some kind of sense of security in the home both financial and emotional and um home both financial and emotional and um home both financial and emotional and um yeah it goes without saying if your yeah it goes without saying if your yeah it goes without saying if your dad's coming around beating you dad's coming around beating you dad's coming around beating you that's going to kind of create an almost that's going to kind of create an almost that's going to kind of create an almost apocalyptic mindset. Like I've I've I've apocalyptic mindset. Like I've I've I've apocalyptic mindset. Like I've I've I've said in the past that there's parts of said in the past that there's parts of said in the past that there's parts of the tape message, this message where you the tape message, this message where you the tape message, this message where you can't trust anyone. Only you uh only you can't trust anyone. Only you uh only you can't trust anyone. Only you uh only you can depend on yourself. You got to be a can depend on yourself. You got to be a can depend on yourself. You got to be a warrior, a warrior. And go out there and warrior, a warrior. And go out there and warrior, a warrior. And go out there and and and then and women are at risk of and and then and women are at risk of and and then and women are at risk of being attacked. And that's why you can't being attacked. And that's why you can't being attacked. And that's why you can't let your wife out on her own because you let your wife out on her own because you let your wife out on her own because you got to be a warrior and she could be got to be a warrior and she could be got to be a warrior and she could be like actually if you were living in uh like actually if you were living in uh like actually if you were living in uh the time of Genghask Khan maybe or maybe the time of Genghask Khan maybe or maybe the time of Genghask Khan maybe or maybe like there'd been the complete collapse like there'd been the complete collapse like there'd been the complete collapse of society and marauding bands of of society and marauding bands of of society and marauding bands of warlords were taking over the streets warlords were taking over the streets warlords were taking over the streets you know the tumble weed strewn streets you know the tumble weed strewn streets you know the tumble weed strewn streets you know and we were sort of foraging in you know and we were sort of foraging in you know and we were sort of foraging in cracks in the gutters like okay yeah I cracks in the gutters like okay yeah I cracks in the gutters like okay yeah I guess you would have to be like a guess you would have to be like a guess you would have to be like a warrior but that actually isn't uh not warrior but that actually isn't uh not warrior but that actually isn't uh not yet anyway the society that we live in. yet anyway the society that we live in. yet anyway the society that we live in. But I do think that if you see if you But I do think that if you see if you But I do think that if you see if you come from a somewhat apocalyptic home come from a somewhat apocalyptic home come from a somewhat apocalyptic home life and you have to evolve this sort of life and you have to evolve this sort of life and you have to evolve this sort of warrior strategy in order to make sense warrior strategy in order to make sense warrior strategy in order to make sense of it, you know, um where your dad is of it, you know, um where your dad is of it, you know, um where your dad is marauding uh into the house every now marauding uh into the house every now marauding uh into the house every now and then, then uh you can see how that and then, then uh you can see how that and then, then uh you can see how that would be an appealing mindset. and and would be an appealing mindset. and and would be an appealing mindset. and and he and his brother, you get the sense of he and his brother, you get the sense of he and his brother, you get the sense of them being trauma bonded and in a world them being trauma bonded and in a world them being trauma bonded and in a world where nothing outside their tiny unit is where nothing outside their tiny unit is where nothing outside their tiny unit is solid or quite trust trustworthy. And solid or quite trust trustworthy. And solid or quite trust trustworthy. And then you roll that out and kids are then you roll that out and kids are then you roll that out and kids are like, "Yeah, I want to be a warrior. like, "Yeah, I want to be a warrior. like, "Yeah, I want to be a warrior. That sounds kind of cool." Like it That sounds kind of cool." Like it That sounds kind of cool." Like it sounds badass. Uh and it becomes an all sounds badass. Uh and it becomes an all sounds badass. Uh and it becomes an all kind of all-encompassing kind of all-encompassing kind of all-encompassing um model for how society should be. If um model for how society should be. If um model for how society should be. If that's the case, if it's so common that that's the case, if it's so common that that's the case, if it's so common that a lot of guys who are a lot of guys who are a lot of guys who are growing up to talk in a viciferous growing up to talk in a viciferous growing up to talk in a viciferous manner about how to survive the world, manner about how to survive the world, manner about how to survive the world, about self-sufficiency and sovereignty about self-sufficiency and sovereignty about self-sufficiency and sovereignty and not being able to trust and standing and not being able to trust and standing and not being able to trust and standing on your own two feet, and that's come on your own two feet, and that's come on your own two feet, and that's come out of difficult childhood experiences, out of difficult childhood experiences, out of difficult childhood experiences, fatherless homes, maybe some neglect or fatherless homes, maybe some neglect or fatherless homes, maybe some neglect or dysfunction or abuse. dysfunction or abuse. dysfunction or abuse. I don't know. You know, in many I don't know. You know, in many I don't know. You know, in many situations, you'd say, "Well, that situations, you'd say, "Well, that situations, you'd say, "Well, that deserves sympathy." deserves sympathy." deserves sympathy." >> Oh, I'd agree. >> Oh, I'd agree. >> Oh, I'd agree. >> Yeah. And in fact, I do think that um >> Yeah. And in fact, I do think that um >> Yeah. And in fact, I do think that um I've attempted to extend empathy to um I've attempted to extend empathy to um I've attempted to extend empathy to um you know, I I I tend to think like those you know, I I I tend to think like those you know, I I I tend to think like those categories of victim and perpetrator can categories of victim and perpetrator can categories of victim and perpetrator can be too binary. like uh you you you sort be too binary. like uh you you you sort be too binary. like uh you you you sort of see ways in which these guys these of see ways in which these guys these of see ways in which these guys these influences are I mean I feel bad for influences are I mean I feel bad for influences are I mean I feel bad for what Andrew and Tristan Tate went what Andrew and Tristan Tate went what Andrew and Tristan Tate went through like it's quite painful. We have through like it's quite painful. We have through like it's quite painful. We have a little picture of him age four years a little picture of him age four years a little picture of him age four years old. You think what did that kid go old. You think what did that kid go old. You think what did that kid go through? And then similarly there's a we through? And then similarly there's a we through? And then similarly there's a we we we meet someone called Ed Matthews we we meet someone called Ed Matthews we we meet someone called Ed Matthews who's a um a friend of HS TikTok. is who's a um a friend of HS TikTok. is who's a um a friend of HS TikTok. is another streamer another streamer another streamer um who gives vent to some conspiracy um who gives vent to some conspiracy um who gives vent to some conspiracy theories and but you also see him when theories and but you also see him when theories and but you also see him when he's I think 9 or 10 years old going he's I think 9 or 10 years old going he's I think 9 or 10 years old going online online online >> yeah eating marshmallows doing like >> yeah eating marshmallows doing like >> yeah eating marshmallows doing like talking in a slight YouTube mid-Atlantic talking in a slight YouTube mid-Atlantic talking in a slight YouTube mid-Atlantic accent guy can you say fuzzy bunny or accent guy can you say fuzzy bunny or accent guy can you say fuzzy bunny or something and he's you just see like something and he's you just see like something and he's you just see like he's a guy who grew up more or less he's a guy who grew up more or less he's a guy who grew up more or less online raised by YouTube you know like online raised by YouTube you know like online raised by YouTube you know like like like they used to say like kids like like they used to say like kids like like they used to say like kids raised by wolves in the woods he's been raised by wolves in the woods he's been raised by wolves in the woods he's been raised by an algorithm and what does raised by an algorithm and what does raised by an algorithm and what does that what does that do to you? Uh, well, that what does that do to you? Uh, well, that what does that do to you? Uh, well, it turns out it sort of turns you into it turns out it sort of turns you into it turns out it sort of turns you into Ed Matthews. So, yeah, I think it's Ed Matthews. So, yeah, I think it's Ed Matthews. So, yeah, I think it's appropriate to have empathy. And I think appropriate to have empathy. And I think appropriate to have empathy. And I think the part that we don't really dig that the part that we don't really dig that the part that we don't really dig that deep into is the tech side, like the deep into is the tech side, like the deep into is the tech side, like the ways in which like who's behind this ways in which like who's behind this ways in which like who's behind this because it's kind of gray engineers and because it's kind of gray engineers and because it's kind of gray engineers and and business people who've programmed and business people who've programmed and business people who've programmed uh social media platforms in order to uh social media platforms in order to uh social media platforms in order to keep us online for as long as possible. keep us online for as long as possible. keep us online for as long as possible. But we're all defenseless. I have no But we're all defenseless. I have no But we're all defenseless. I have no superiority when it comes to my superiority when it comes to my superiority when it comes to my algorithm. algorithm. algorithm. uh has me by the short and curies. I go uh has me by the short and curies. I go uh has me by the short and curies. I go on to Instagram to send a DM to someone on to Instagram to send a DM to someone on to Instagram to send a DM to someone and then 20 minutes later I'm looking at and then 20 minutes later I'm looking at and then 20 minutes later I'm looking at videos of a woman playing the piano with videos of a woman playing the piano with videos of a woman playing the piano with her breasts. It was a real one that came her breasts. It was a real one that came her breasts. It was a real one that came up, not naked. She wasn't naked. up, not naked. She wasn't naked. up, not naked. She wasn't naked. Someone sent that to me. I'm like, "What Someone sent that to me. I'm like, "What Someone sent that to me. I'm like, "What the hell? Don't send that to me." the hell? Don't send that to me." the hell? Don't send that to me." >> It these platforms are really good at >> It these platforms are really good at >> It these platforms are really good at hacking the bottom of our brain stems. hacking the bottom of our brain stems. hacking the bottom of our brain stems. And uh yeah, I guess it's it's an And uh yeah, I guess it's it's an And uh yeah, I guess it's it's an interesting challenge to think. I I had interesting challenge to think. I I had interesting challenge to think. I I had this guy on the show uh Stuart Russell this guy on the show uh Stuart Russell this guy on the show uh Stuart Russell and he wrote the book on artificial and he wrote the book on artificial and he wrote the book on artificial intelligence up until probably about intelligence up until probably about intelligence up until probably about six, seven, eight years ago and he six, seven, eight years ago and he six, seven, eight years ago and he explained to me about how these explained to me about how these explained to me about how these algorithms work these blackbox algorithms work these blackbox algorithms work these blackbox algorithms. If you ask a YouTube the algorithms. If you ask a YouTube the algorithms. If you ask a YouTube the YouTube engineer, let's say there was YouTube engineer, let's say there was YouTube engineer, let's say there was just one. So what does what is the just one. So what does what is the just one. So what does what is the algorithm? What does it do? Can tell you algorithm? What does it do? Can tell you algorithm? What does it do? Can tell you what the output is but it can't no one what the output is but it can't no one what the output is but it can't no one can tell you how it works because it's can tell you how it works because it's can tell you how it works because it's self-training, right? It's trying to self-training, right? It's trying to self-training, right? It's trying to maximize largely click-through rate and maximize largely click-through rate and maximize largely click-through rate and time on site. It's like get people to time on site. It's like get people to time on site. It's like get people to press a thing and once they've pressed a press a thing and once they've pressed a press a thing and once they've pressed a thing, get them to stay on the thing. thing, get them to stay on the thing. thing, get them to stay on the thing. That's kind of it. Maximize time on That's kind of it. Maximize time on That's kind of it. Maximize time on site. And what he taught me that was site. And what he taught me that was site. And what he taught me that was really interesting and I think adds a really interesting and I think adds a really interesting and I think adds a really cool flavor when you whenever really cool flavor when you whenever really cool flavor when you whenever you're watching anything on the internet you're watching anything on the internet you're watching anything on the internet especially if you see this kind of especially if you see this kind of especially if you see this kind of runaway escalation effect of any type of runaway escalation effect of any type of runaway escalation effect of any type of content is content is content is the algorithm can do uh two things to the algorithm can do uh two things to the algorithm can do uh two things to make you more likely to click on a piece make you more likely to click on a piece make you more likely to click on a piece of content. First one which most people of content. First one which most people of content. First one which most people understand is it can become better at understand is it can become better at understand is it can become better at predicting your preferences. I know what predicting your preferences. I know what predicting your preferences. I know what you like and I am able to deliver that you like and I am able to deliver that you like and I am able to deliver that to you in a good way. The second one to you in a good way. The second one to you in a good way. The second one which is way more pericious is it can which is way more pericious is it can which is way more pericious is it can nudge your preferences to be easier to nudge your preferences to be easier to nudge your preferences to be easier to predict. predict. predict. So if it's able to engineer you and So if it's able to engineer you and So if it's able to engineer you and typically if you're out on one end typically if you're out on one end typically if you're out on one end either right or left or up or down based either right or left or up or down based either right or left or up or down based on whatever you know ideological map you on whatever you know ideological map you on whatever you know ideological map you want to use it is far easier to predict want to use it is far easier to predict want to use it is far easier to predict how you're going to behave because if how you're going to behave because if how you're going to behave because if you're in the middle you might fall one you're in the middle you might fall one you're in the middle you might fall one way one time and then another way the way one time and then another way the way one time and then another way the next. And I realized as he was talking, next. And I realized as he was talking, next. And I realized as he was talking, oh well there's also an implication here oh well there's also an implication here oh well there's also an implication here for the people making the content for the people making the content for the people making the content because if the algorithm is training the because if the algorithm is training the because if the algorithm is training the feedback mechanism of the preferences of feedback mechanism of the preferences of feedback mechanism of the preferences of the people who are watching, it's also the people who are watching, it's also the people who are watching, it's also doing it to the people who are doing it to the people who are doing it to the people who are incentivized to maximize the people that incentivized to maximize the people that incentivized to maximize the people that are watching. Cuz we me and you, you've are watching. Cuz we me and you, you've are watching. Cuz we me and you, you've got podcasts and stuff, you've got got podcasts and stuff, you've got got podcasts and stuff, you've got metrics. You can see what you're doing metrics. You can see what you're doing metrics. You can see what you're doing that is effective. There's a retention that is effective. There's a retention that is effective. There's a retention curve. Oh, I said this thing. Oh, that curve. Oh, I said this thing. Oh, that curve. Oh, I said this thing. Oh, that was an we should we should do more was an we should we should do more was an we should we should do more segments like that on the show next time segments like that on the show next time segments like that on the show next time or I I don't know what reporting Netflix or I I don't know what reporting Netflix or I I don't know what reporting Netflix gives or has or whatever, but I could gives or has or whatever, but I could gives or has or whatever, but I could imagine you screen people screen test imagine you screen people screen test imagine you screen people screen test movies and stuff, right? Like that's movies and stuff, right? Like that's movies and stuff, right? Like that's kind of the same thing. Why are you kind of the same thing. Why are you kind of the same thing. Why are you screen testing a movie? Because you're screen testing a movie? Because you're screen testing a movie? Because you're trying to be shaped by the audience, but trying to be shaped by the audience, but trying to be shaped by the audience, but this is now being done on mass with this is now being done on mass with this is now being done on mass with metrics all the time, 24 hours a day metrics all the time, 24 hours a day metrics all the time, 24 hours a day with an algorithm. And you know, you with an algorithm. And you know, you with an algorithm. And you know, you bring up the sort of dynamics of live bring up the sort of dynamics of live bring up the sort of dynamics of live streaming and how that sort of streaming and how that sort of streaming and how that sort of contributes. I saw for the first time contributes. I saw for the first time contributes. I saw for the first time ever, I was at Mr. Beast Beast Games 2 ever, I was at Mr. Beast Beast Games 2 ever, I was at Mr. Beast Beast Games 2 premiere in Hollywood uh at the start of premiere in Hollywood uh at the start of premiere in Hollywood uh at the start of the year and for the first time ever I the year and for the first time ever I the year and for the first time ever I saw a a live streamer in the wild and saw a a live streamer in the wild and saw a a live streamer in the wild and I'd only ever seen it this side of a I'd only ever seen it this side of a I'd only ever seen it this side of a screen before. And to hear someone screen before. And to hear someone screen before. And to hear someone unironically say W cameraman in the chat unironically say W cameraman in the chat unironically say W cameraman in the chat to but to hear that in real life to me to but to hear that in real life to me to but to hear that in real life to me kind of felt a little bit like seeing a kind of felt a little bit like seeing a kind of felt a little bit like seeing a school teacher at the supermarket. Like school teacher at the supermarket. Like school teacher at the supermarket. Like what are you doing here? You shouldn't what are you doing here? You shouldn't what are you doing here? You shouldn't be here. Like you should Mrs. Henderson, be here. Like you should Mrs. Henderson, be here. Like you should Mrs. Henderson, you're supposed to be in you're supposed you're supposed to be in you're supposed you're supposed to be in you're supposed to be in history class. Um, but yeah, to be in history class. Um, but yeah, to be in history class. Um, but yeah, this algorithm thing, it's becoming this algorithm thing, it's becoming this algorithm thing, it's becoming better at predicting users preferences, better at predicting users preferences, better at predicting users preferences, but it's also shaping the preferences of but it's also shaping the preferences of but it's also shaping the preferences of those users to make them easier to those users to make them easier to those users to make them easier to predict. And predict. And predict. And it has to be shaping the incentives of it has to be shaping the incentives of it has to be shaping the incentives of the creators. And this is what audience the creators. And this is what audience the creators. And this is what audience capture is, right? That you just begin capture is, right? That you just begin capture is, right? That you just begin to throw more and more red meat toward to throw more and more red meat toward to throw more and more red meat toward the audience to do the thing, to say the the audience to do the thing, to say the the audience to do the thing, to say the thing that they thing that they thing that they are going to agree with that, they're are going to agree with that, they're are going to agree with that, they're going to respond to. So, yeah, the going to respond to. So, yeah, the going to respond to. So, yeah, the algorithms are warping, but they're not algorithms are warping, but they're not algorithms are warping, but they're not just they're warping in kind of all just they're warping in kind of all just they're warping in kind of all directions, including kind of vertically directions, including kind of vertically directions, including kind of vertically integrated back up the production stack. integrated back up the production stack. integrated back up the production stack. 100%. And imagine if as well like you're 100%. And imagine if as well like you're 100%. And imagine if as well like you're you're putting out content that is maybe you're putting out content that is maybe you're putting out content that is maybe feels authentic to you. Uh, and you feels authentic to you. Uh, and you feels authentic to you. Uh, and you know, maybe some of it is stunts and know, maybe some of it is stunts and know, maybe some of it is stunts and pranks and some of it's uh skits or pranks and some of it's uh skits or pranks and some of it's uh skits or interactions with people in the public, interactions with people in the public, interactions with people in the public, but some of it's just monologues or you but some of it's just monologues or you but some of it's just monologues or you just talking about stuff and you're in just talking about stuff and you're in just talking about stuff and you're in this continuous feedback loop of being this continuous feedback loop of being this continuous feedback loop of being rewarded for some things and not for rewarded for some things and not for rewarded for some things and not for others. what that does to your identity others. what that does to your identity others. what that does to your identity like and and you know if your main like and and you know if your main like and and you know if your main relationship in life is is with the chat relationship in life is is with the chat relationship in life is is with the chat like a virtual community the ways in like a virtual community the ways in like a virtual community the ways in which you would start to second guessess which you would start to second guessess which you would start to second guessess who you are and especially in this realm who you are and especially in this realm who you are and especially in this realm where we talked about kayfabe this sort where we talked about kayfabe this sort where we talked about kayfabe this sort of sense in which there's this of sense in which there's this of sense in which there's this unagnowledged fictional dimension that's unagnowledged fictional dimension that's unagnowledged fictional dimension that's never really spoken about never really spoken about never really spoken about >> you know how confusing that would be you >> you know how confusing that would be you >> you know how confusing that would be you would start to think I don't even know would start to think I don't even know would start to think I don't even know who I am anymore more you know that that who I am anymore more you know that that who I am anymore more you know that that there's this sort of existential burnout there's this sort of existential burnout there's this sort of existential burnout that takes place. Um I'm really curious that takes place. Um I'm really curious that takes place. Um I'm really curious though when you said the thing about how though when you said the thing about how though when you said the thing about how would they be able to in that idea of would they be able to in that idea of would they be able to in that idea of nudging your preferences nudging your preferences nudging your preferences instead of just pandering to them. How instead of just pandering to them. How instead of just pandering to them. How do they do that? Do we know just by do they do that? Do we know just by do they do that? Do we know just by giving you more extreme content? giving you more extreme content? giving you more extreme content? >> The algorithms. So I I Stuart didn't >> The algorithms. So I I Stuart didn't >> The algorithms. So I I Stuart didn't explain the dynamic to me so I'm just explain the dynamic to me so I'm just explain the dynamic to me so I'm just going to bro science it and pull it out going to bro science it and pull it out going to bro science it and pull it out my ass. But I think it would be probably my ass. But I think it would be probably my ass. But I think it would be probably to do with a reliable escalation of a a to do with a reliable escalation of a a to do with a reliable escalation of a a a pipeline. I hate using that word a pipeline. I hate using that word a pipeline. I hate using that word because it's always thin end of the because it's always thin end of the because it's always thin end of the wedge. You know, you start off watching wedge. You know, you start off watching wedge. You know, you start off watching Jordan Peterson and before you know it, Jordan Peterson and before you know it, Jordan Peterson and before you know it, you're at a KKK march, which I I don't you're at a KKK march, which I I don't you're at a KKK march, which I I don't think is necessarily true. But I do think is necessarily true. But I do think is necessarily true. But I do think that if you were to come up with a think that if you were to come up with a think that if you were to come up with a way to imagine that the algorithm was way to imagine that the algorithm was way to imagine that the algorithm was able to see cuz what it's doing is it's able to see cuz what it's doing is it's able to see cuz what it's doing is it's using the preferences of other users using the preferences of other users using the preferences of other users that are like you and it's using their that are like you and it's using their that are like you and it's using their path to help predict your path, right? path to help predict your path, right? path to help predict your path, right? Because you're a new user. You sign up Because you're a new user. You sign up Because you're a new user. You sign up Lou. You sign up with a brand new Lou. You sign up with a brand new Lou. You sign up with a brand new YouTube account. How does it know what YouTube account. How does it know what YouTube account. How does it know what humans like generally? Well, he clicked humans like generally? Well, he clicked humans like generally? Well, he clicked on this and other users like him also on this and other users like him also on this and other users like him also clicked on this and then they clicked on clicked on this and then they clicked on clicked on this and then they clicked on that and then they clicked on that and that and then they clicked on that and that and then they clicked on that and then they clicked on that. And if you then they clicked on that. And if you then they clicked on that. And if you can become more and more reliable over can become more and more reliable over can become more and more reliable over time, I can't think of a better word for time, I can't think of a better word for time, I can't think of a better word for it, it does create a kind of funnel. Uh it, it does create a kind of funnel. Uh it, it does create a kind of funnel. Uh it creates a sort of path that reliably it creates a sort of path that reliably it creates a sort of path that reliably takes somebody toward a more predictable takes somebody toward a more predictable takes somebody toward a more predictable version of themselves. And this is why version of themselves. And this is why version of themselves. And this is why the biggest videos get the most plays the biggest videos get the most plays the biggest videos get the most plays beyond the fact that typically they're beyond the fact that typically they're beyond the fact that typically they're the best, right? Or they're the most the best, right? Or they're the most the best, right? Or they're the most effective at whatever keeping us on effective at whatever keeping us on effective at whatever keeping us on site, but also that they're the ones site, but also that they're the ones site, but also that they're the ones that are most reliable from the that are most reliable from the that are most reliable from the algorithms perspective at being able to algorithms perspective at being able to algorithms perspective at being able to get people to click on it. And get people to click on it. And get people to click on it. And especially if you've um preconditioned especially if you've um preconditioned especially if you've um preconditioned them like Darren Brown or something, them like Darren Brown or something, them like Darren Brown or something, it's a big Darren Brown game where it's a big Darren Brown game where it's a big Darren Brown game where you're trying to sort of lay the you're trying to sort of lay the you're trying to sort of lay the lay the scenarios so that this these lay the scenarios so that this these lay the scenarios so that this these beliefs over time become and and also beliefs over time become and and also beliefs over time become and and also are bucketed people are bucketed into um are bucketed people are bucketed into um are bucketed people are bucketed into um uh more easy to understand groups and I uh more easy to understand groups and I uh more easy to understand groups and I think typically that that pushes people think typically that that pushes people think typically that that pushes people out toward the edges. out toward the edges. out toward the edges. What what I observed was that in the What what I observed was that in the What what I observed was that in the streamer community uh and this is streamer community uh and this is streamer community uh and this is self-evident self-evident self-evident there's this pull towards obviously there's this pull towards obviously there's this pull towards obviously engagement and that uh that involves engagement and that uh that involves engagement and that uh that involves antisocial behavior. So one thing that antisocial behavior. So one thing that antisocial behavior. So one thing that we filmed was we filmed was we filmed was HS ticky setting up what he called a HS ticky setting up what he called a HS ticky setting up what he called a prred sting. This was a big trend I prred sting. This was a big trend I prred sting. This was a big trend I think last year where people would set think last year where people would set think last year where people would set up dates with someone pretending to be up dates with someone pretending to be up dates with someone pretending to be uh underage and then the person would uh underage and then the person would uh underage and then the person would arrive arrive arrive the alleged predator and then you would the alleged predator and then you would the alleged predator and then you would the streamer would humiliate the person the streamer would humiliate the person the streamer would humiliate the person saying like you're a filthy prred you're saying like you're a filthy prred you're saying like you're a filthy prred you're a filthy prred and in the case of the a filthy prred and in the case of the a filthy prred and in the case of the one we watched they beat him up um and one we watched they beat him up um and one we watched they beat him up um and it was it was really dark it was really it was it was really dark it was really it was it was really dark it was really dark it was a bit uh it felt like you We dark it was a bit uh it felt like you We dark it was a bit uh it felt like you We used to say, you know, back in the day, used to say, you know, back in the day, used to say, you know, back in the day, there was this vision for what dystopian there was this vision for what dystopian there was this vision for what dystopian society would look like where this sort society would look like where this sort society would look like where this sort of top-down justice, public executions of top-down justice, public executions of top-down justice, public executions or hunger games. And my epic, Sue was or hunger games. And my epic, Sue was or hunger games. And my epic, Sue was like, we've kind of created a million like, we've kind of created a million like, we've kind of created a million hunger games that are self-inflicted. hunger games that are self-inflicted. hunger games that are self-inflicted. You know, there's these um sort of uh You know, there's these um sort of uh You know, there's these um sort of uh yeah, individually curated reality shows yeah, individually curated reality shows yeah, individually curated reality shows where anything goes. Um the other part where anything goes. Um the other part where anything goes. Um the other part of it was that in the chat because of it was that in the chat because of it was that in the chat because you've got these people kind of it's not you've got these people kind of it's not you've got these people kind of it's not like they're not quite your friend like like they're not quite your friend like like they're not quite your friend like often they're like trolls right and with often they're like trolls right and with often they're like trolls right and with HS because he started questioning I mean HS because he started questioning I mean HS because he started questioning I mean I should wind up and say I should wind I should wind up and say I should wind I should wind up and say I should wind back and say that um in in filming the back and say that um in in filming the back and say that um in in filming the documentary I was aware that they would documentary I was aware that they would documentary I was aware that they would be filming me and that was both a price be filming me and that was both a price be filming me and that was both a price of entry but also kind of an opportunity of entry but also kind of an opportunity of entry but also kind of an opportunity to tell the story in a slightly to tell the story in a slightly to tell the story in a slightly different way where different way where different way where >> we they'd be fil. I'd film them, they'd >> we they'd be fil. I'd film them, they'd >> we they'd be fil. I'd film them, they'd be filming me. We'd incorporate some of be filming me. We'd incorporate some of be filming me. We'd incorporate some of their content into the filming. Then their content into the filming. Then their content into the filming. Then after I leave, they go back on stream after I leave, they go back on stream after I leave, they go back on stream saying, "I don't know what Louis game saying, "I don't know what Louis game saying, "I don't know what Louis game is. I think he might be trying to [ __ ] is. I think he might be trying to [ __ ] is. I think he might be trying to [ __ ] me, but I'm not sure." Anyway, and then me, but I'm not sure." Anyway, and then me, but I'm not sure." Anyway, and then all these comments come in saying like, all these comments come in saying like, all these comments come in saying like, "Uh, bro, he's going to finish you. "Uh, bro, he's going to finish you. "Uh, bro, he's going to finish you. You're cooked, bro." Uh, HSL You're cooked, bro." Uh, HSL You're cooked, bro." Uh, HSL Major L for ticky Faru's gonna uh dunk Major L for ticky Faru's gonna uh dunk Major L for ticky Faru's gonna uh dunk on you, brav. And then um and then he he on you, brav. And then um and then he he on you, brav. And then um and then he he starts talking back to the chat and it starts talking back to the chat and it starts talking back to the chat and it becomes this sort of spiral where he becomes this sort of spiral where he becomes this sort of spiral where he starts questioning his decision to take starts questioning his decision to take starts questioning his decision to take part and we were kind of whipped up part and we were kind of whipped up part and we were kind of whipped up almost like a kind of gladiatorial almost like a kind of gladiatorial almost like a kind of gladiatorial scenario by the crowd like come on scenario by the crowd like come on scenario by the crowd like come on finish him like the crowd is like these finish him like the crowd is like these finish him like the crowd is like these comments that come in the chat and comments that come in the chat and comments that come in the chat and they're egging us on to to sort of ramp they're egging us on to to sort of ramp they're egging us on to to sort of ramp up the aggressiveness and the tension. up the aggressiveness and the tension. up the aggressiveness and the tension. So there's this there's this natural So there's this there's this natural So there's this there's this natural tendency towards everything becoming tendency towards everything becoming tendency towards everything becoming combat you know like a like whether it's combat you know like a like whether it's combat you know like a like whether it's is this zero sum approach which is is this zero sum approach which is is this zero sum approach which is entertaining you know and goes back to entertaining you know and goes back to entertaining you know and goes back to the what you said at the beginning about the what you said at the beginning about the what you said at the beginning about this sort of metaphor of of wrestling this sort of metaphor of of wrestling this sort of metaphor of of wrestling but I I mean ends up being I think but I I mean ends up being I think but I I mean ends up being I think rather exhausting and it's obviously a rather exhausting and it's obviously a rather exhausting and it's obviously a very limited way of of observing life. very limited way of of observing life. very limited way of of observing life. We'll get back to talking in just one We'll get back to talking in just one We'll get back to talking in just one second, but first, if you have been second, but first, if you have been second, but first, if you have been feeling a bit sluggish, your feeling a bit sluggish, your feeling a bit sluggish, your testosterone levels might be the testosterone levels might be the testosterone levels might be the problem. They play a huge role in your problem. They play a huge role in your problem. They play a huge role in your energy, focus, and performance, but most energy, focus, and performance, but most energy, focus, and performance, but most people have no idea what theirs are or people have no idea what theirs are or people have no idea what theirs are or what to do that something's off. Which what to do that something's off. Which what to do that something's off. Which is why I partnered with Function because is why I partnered with Function because is why I partnered with Function because I wanted a smarter and more I wanted a smarter and more I wanted a smarter and more comprehensive way to actually understand comprehensive way to actually understand comprehensive way to actually understand what's happening inside of my body. what's happening inside of my body. what's happening inside of my body. Twice a year, they run lab tests that Twice a year, they run lab tests that Twice a year, they run lab tests that monitor over a 100 biomarkers. They've monitor over a 100 biomarkers. They've monitor over a 100 biomarkers. 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Get the exact same blood panels that I Get the exact same blood panels that I Get the exact same blood panels that I get and save a hundred bucks by going to get and save a hundred bucks by going to get and save a hundred bucks by going to the link in the description below or the link in the description below or the link in the description below or heading to heading to heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modern That's functionhealth.com/modern That's functionhealth.com/modern wisdom. Well, what I saw with my live wisdom. Well, what I saw with my live wisdom. Well, what I saw with my live streamer in the wild was it's kind of streamer in the wild was it's kind of streamer in the wild was it's kind of like permanently edging your audience like permanently edging your audience like permanently edging your audience with no orgasm at the end because if with no orgasm at the end because if with no orgasm at the end because if there's a payoff that is a lull and that there's a payoff that is a lull and that there's a payoff that is a lull and that means that your numbers are going to go means that your numbers are going to go means that your numbers are going to go down. the the the live the live stream down. the the the live the live stream down. the the the live the live stream numbers are going to go down. So there numbers are going to go down. So there numbers are going to go down. So there was always was always was always >> it always felt like a cliffhanger at the >> it always felt like a cliffhanger at the >> it always felt like a cliffhanger at the end of a TV show because we were stood end of a TV show because we were stood end of a TV show because we were stood in this we were stood in the line for in this we were stood in the line for in this we were stood in the line for the red carpet the red carpet the red carpet 5 10 yards away. So I was and I was 5 10 yards away. So I was and I was 5 10 yards away. So I was and I was fascinated. So I'm just like locked in fascinated. So I'm just like locked in fascinated. So I'm just like locked in watching this guy and uh it was um we watching this guy and uh it was um we watching this guy and uh it was um we don't know what's going to happen next. don't know what's going to happen next. don't know what's going to happen next. I don't know if we're supposed to be I don't know if we're supposed to be I don't know if we're supposed to be here. This is the thing that's coming here. This is the thing that's coming here. This is the thing that's coming up. There was always anticipation. And up. There was always anticipation. And up. There was always anticipation. And there was always this thing's going to there was always this thing's going to there was always this thing's going to happen and this thing's going to happen happen and this thing's going to happen happen and this thing's going to happen and this thing's going to happen. And um and this thing's going to happen. And um and this thing's going to happen. And um yeah, it it is a I think it it's maybe a yeah, it it is a I think it it's maybe a yeah, it it is a I think it it's maybe a little different when it's not IRL little different when it's not IRL little different when it's not IRL stuff. If it's not if you're sat in stuff. If it's not if you're sat in stuff. If it's not if you're sat in front of a computer, typically you're front of a computer, typically you're front of a computer, typically you're the pace is a little slower. You're the pace is a little slower. You're the pace is a little slower. You're reacting to things as it comes up. reacting to things as it comes up. reacting to things as it comes up. You're able to, you know, converse a You're able to, you know, converse a You're able to, you know, converse a little bit more with the chat. But yeah, little bit more with the chat. But yeah, little bit more with the chat. But yeah, if you're in the in the real world, if you're in the in the real world, if you're in the in the real world, you're Yeah. Now we're going to go and you're Yeah. Now we're going to go and you're Yeah. Now we're going to go and go down the strip in Marbaya. Now we're go down the strip in Marbaya. Now we're go down the strip in Marbaya. Now we're going to go on the back line. Now we're going to go on the back line. Now we're going to go on the back line. Now we're going to go and so yeah, there is this going to go and so yeah, there is this going to go and so yeah, there is this um ever escalating sort of dopamine um ever escalating sort of dopamine um ever escalating sort of dopamine spiral that needs to be played. And if spiral that needs to be played. And if spiral that needs to be played. And if not, then the numbers go down and not, then the numbers go down and not, then the numbers go down and numbers going down is bad. And the chat numbers going down is bad. And the chat numbers going down is bad. And the chat says that it's you. says that it's you. says that it's you. >> Yeah, you're literally It's not like in >> Yeah, you're literally It's not like in >> Yeah, you're literally It's not like in the old days, oh, how were the ratings the old days, oh, how were the ratings the old days, oh, how were the ratings last night? They haven't come in yet. We last night? They haven't come in yet. We last night? They haven't come in yet. We get them in a couple of hours. This is get them in a couple of hours. This is get them in a couple of hours. This is constant. You can literally see we know constant. You can literally see we know constant. You can literally see we know the ratings every second this second and the ratings every second this second and the ratings every second this second and next second. And also me meanwhile next second. And also me meanwhile next second. And also me meanwhile meanwhile as they're going some guy some meanwhile as they're going some guy some meanwhile as they're going some guy some clip there's a team of clippers who are clip there's a team of clippers who are clip there's a team of clippers who are taking short clips each one about you taking short clips each one about you taking short clips each one about you know five to 20 seconds long with a know five to 20 seconds long with a know five to 20 seconds long with a little headline like theu finishes HS or little headline like theu finishes HS or little headline like theu finishes HS or HS wasn't expecting theu to say this or HS wasn't expecting theu to say this or HS wasn't expecting theu to say this or HS's mom is is having a pop at theu like HS's mom is is having a pop at theu like HS's mom is is having a pop at theu like almost like you know tabloid headlines almost like you know tabloid headlines almost like you know tabloid headlines and then they just put them out like so and then they just put them out like so and then they just put them out like so there'll be 50 or 100 or 200 of those there'll be 50 or 100 or 200 of those there'll be 50 or 100 or 200 of those clips based on a conversation of a few clips based on a conversation of a few clips based on a conversation of a few hours and then whichever ones perform hours and then whichever ones perform hours and then whichever ones perform well like we're so you know I have a you well like we're so you know I have a you well like we're so you know I have a you know podcast we put out social media know podcast we put out social media know podcast we put out social media content we'll put out like two or three content we'll put out like two or three content we'll put out like two or three clips I mean we're probably still in the clips I mean we're probably still in the clips I mean we're probably still in the dark ages and then oh one of them did dark ages and then oh one of them did dark ages and then oh one of them did well or maybe none of them did well but well or maybe none of them did well but well or maybe none of them did well but what we should be doing is putting like what we should be doing is putting like what we should be doing is putting like these guys put out like a hundred and these guys put out like a hundred and these guys put out like a hundred and then one of them gets picked up and then then one of them gets picked up and then then one of them gets picked up and then that that gets turbocharged and is seen that that gets turbocharged and is seen that that gets turbocharged and is seen I had the the dubious privilege of I had the the dubious privilege of I had the the dubious privilege of coming back from location this is the coming back from location this is the coming back from location this is the first time this has happened. Uh, and first time this has happened. Uh, and first time this has happened. Uh, and arriving back and my kids would be like, arriving back and my kids would be like, arriving back and my kids would be like, "Dad, what were you doing with HS?" "Dad, what were you doing with HS?" "Dad, what were you doing with HS?" Like, "Why were you like I saw that? Why Like, "Why were you like I saw that? Why Like, "Why were you like I saw that? Why what were you thinking when you said what were you thinking when you said what were you thinking when you said that thing?" Or, or why did you like not that thing?" Or, or why did you like not that thing?" Or, or why did you like not answer his question about such and such answer his question about such and such answer his question about such and such or they had seen it all already? Not or they had seen it all already? Not or they had seen it all already? Not like on a live stream. It had just been like on a live stream. It had just been like on a live stream. It had just been fed into their social media feeds. I've fed into their social media feeds. I've fed into their social media feeds. I've never had this weird sense of being never had this weird sense of being never had this weird sense of being eavesdropped upon all the way to eavesdropped upon all the way to eavesdropped upon all the way to >> Yeah, you were surveiled. You were >> Yeah, you were surveiled. You were >> Yeah, you were surveiled. You were surveiled, but it wasn't it wasn't by surveiled, but it wasn't it wasn't by surveiled, but it wasn't it wasn't by some secret police or a private some secret police or a private some secret police or a private investigator. It was by the camera. investigator. It was by the camera. investigator. It was by the camera. Yeah. It wasn't you with escorts in Yeah. It wasn't you with escorts in Yeah. It wasn't you with escorts in middle America. It wasn't you with some middle America. It wasn't you with some middle America. It wasn't you with some fundamentalist religious cult. It wasn't fundamentalist religious cult. It wasn't fundamentalist religious cult. It wasn't you with whatever and then you coming you with whatever and then you coming you with whatever and then you coming home. I mean, I I I have to imagine that home. I mean, I I I have to imagine that home. I mean, I I I have to imagine that probably your kids brought up more probably your kids brought up more probably your kids brought up more questions to you about what was going on questions to you about what was going on questions to you about what was going on there than they do if they've watched there than they do if they've watched there than they do if they've watched your documentaries because it feels live your documentaries because it feels live your documentaries because it feels live and emergent and it's going on in this and emergent and it's going on in this and emergent and it's going on in this way. way. way. Yeah, I think it's I'm curious to see Yeah, I think it's I'm curious to see Yeah, I think it's I'm curious to see what they make of it. Like I I well I I what they make of it. Like I I well I I what they make of it. Like I I well I I say that I'm already second guessing say that I'm already second guessing say that I'm already second guessing that. I am curious, but I I also one of that. I am curious, but I I also one of that. I am curious, but I I also one of the things I grew up with a dad who had the things I grew up with a dad who had the things I grew up with a dad who had a public profile. He he's an author a public profile. He he's an author a public profile. He he's an author called Paul Thuru. And you know it's called Paul Thuru. And you know it's called Paul Thuru. And you know it's something I don't know if you had this something I don't know if you had this something I don't know if you had this or not but it's something when your or not but it's something when your or not but it's something when your parent is famous parent is famous parent is famous uh they have a dual persona and you're uh they have a dual persona and you're uh they have a dual persona and you're very conscious that the what the public very conscious that the what the public very conscious that the what the public one feels false like I just remember one feels false like I just remember one feels false like I just remember thinking like the dad the version of my thinking like the dad the version of my thinking like the dad the version of my dad that existed in pro newspaper dad that existed in pro newspaper dad that existed in pro newspaper profiles or in as a as a kind of profiles or in as a as a kind of profiles or in as a as a kind of character in his books wasn't someone I character in his books wasn't someone I character in his books wasn't someone I particularly recognized and I I I particularly recognized and I I I particularly recognized and I I I imagine it might be the case with my imagine it might be the case with my imagine it might be the case with my kids and I'm obviously very keen that kids and I'm obviously very keen that kids and I'm obviously very keen that they should see me as dad and not Louis they should see me as dad and not Louis they should see me as dad and not Louis threw quirky documentary maker uh and threw quirky documentary maker uh and threw quirky documentary maker uh and definitely not Louis Thu like stoogge or definitely not Louis Thu like stoogge or definitely not Louis Thu like stoogge or a psy or or kind of a psy or or kind of a psy or or kind of uh sort of butt of HS ticky humiliating uh sort of butt of HS ticky humiliating uh sort of butt of HS ticky humiliating jokes you know but that being the case jokes you know but that being the case jokes you know but that being the case they see what they see on social media they see what they see on social media they see what they see on social media they've been they've been surprised I they've been they've been surprised I they've been they've been surprised I not surprised, but they've been re kind not surprised, but they've been re kind not surprised, but they've been re kind of reassuringly relaxed uh about me of reassuringly relaxed uh about me of reassuringly relaxed uh about me appearing on their streams. I've been appearing on their streams. I've been appearing on their streams. I've been joking. They said, "Dad, you got cooked joking. They said, "Dad, you got cooked joking. They said, "Dad, you got cooked by HS." I don't think they actually ever by HS." I don't think they actually ever by HS." I don't think they actually ever said that. said that. said that. >> Yeah. Well, look, not to me. Anyway, >> Yeah. Well, look, not to me. Anyway, >> Yeah. Well, look, not to me. Anyway, >> the fact that you're in this sort of >> the fact that you're in this sort of >> the fact that you're in this sort of weird panopticon of of what was it that weird panopticon of of what was it that weird panopticon of of what was it that Stuart Lee referred to it as? Um uh uh Stuart Lee referred to it as? Um uh uh Stuart Lee referred to it as? Um uh uh Staryy for the Angry Birds generation. Staryy for the Angry Birds generation. Staryy for the Angry Birds generation. And it's state surveillance run by And it's state surveillance run by And it's state surveillance run by gullible volunteers. Um that's a great gullible volunteers. Um that's a great gullible volunteers. Um that's a great now now that's that's panopticon. You now now that's that's panopticon. You now now that's that's panopticon. You had me at panopticon actually. I'll keep had me at panopticon actually. I'll keep had me at panopticon actually. I'll keep I shamelessly re I shamelessly re I shamelessly re >> should we tell the people like yeah >> should we tell the people like yeah >> should we tell the people like yeah panopticon panopticon panopticon the a term I think coined by Jeremy the a term I think coined by Jeremy the a term I think coined by Jeremy Bentham the utilitarian philosopher and Bentham the utilitarian philosopher and Bentham the utilitarian philosopher and social reformer which was the idea that social reformer which was the idea that social reformer which was the idea that a prison of like 10,000 people could a prison of like 10,000 people could a prison of like 10,000 people could theoretically be staffed by one or two theoretically be staffed by one or two theoretically be staffed by one or two people who were in a central kind of people who were in a central kind of people who were in a central kind of lighthouse that surveiled the entire lighthouse that surveiled the entire lighthouse that surveiled the entire structure. But you're right. We're in structure. But you're right. We're in structure. But you're right. We're in this sort of uh mutually this sort of uh mutually this sort of uh mutually well I can't really do better than what well I can't really do better than what well I can't really do better than what you just did with the Stuart League you just did with the Stuart League you just did with the Stuart League work. We're in a self-created kind of work. We're in a self-created kind of work. We're in a self-created kind of all-facing panopticon. all-facing panopticon. all-facing panopticon. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, look panopticon. >> Well, look panopticon. >> Well, look panopticon. >> I tell you what's interesting for me. >> I tell you what's interesting for me. >> I tell you what's interesting for me. The strange thing at least a little bit The strange thing at least a little bit The strange thing at least a little bit is I know pretty much everybody that was is I know pretty much everybody that was is I know pretty much everybody that was in the documentary in one form or in the documentary in one form or in the documentary in one form or another. I've either spoken to them, another. I've either spoken to them, another. I've either spoken to them, texted them. Uh, I haven't published any texted them. Uh, I haven't published any texted them. Uh, I haven't published any episodes with any anybody. Um, but you episodes with any anybody. Um, but you episodes with any anybody. Um, but you know, I've been for for dinner and I'm know, I've been for for dinner and I'm know, I've been for for dinner and I'm I've been tangential. I guess I think I've been tangential. I guess I think I've been tangential. I guess I think the thing that's weird for me or that's the thing that's weird for me or that's the thing that's weird for me or that's a little bit of a challenge for me is a little bit of a challenge for me is a little bit of a challenge for me is that it's difficult to speak to issues that it's difficult to speak to issues that it's difficult to speak to issues that men face without being lumped into that men face without being lumped into that men face without being lumped into this very broad term that's sort of this very broad term that's sort of this very broad term that's sort of concept creeped out to include concept creeped out to include concept creeped out to include manosphere. I mean, you know, feminism manosphere. I mean, you know, feminism manosphere. I mean, you know, feminism includes maternal feminists. someone includes maternal feminists. someone includes maternal feminists. someone like a Louise Perry who campaigned like a Louise Perry who campaigned like a Louise Perry who campaigned against rough sex killings and is very against rough sex killings and is very against rough sex killings and is very pro- family and sort of the most pro- family and sort of the most pro- family and sort of the most anti-natalist super liberal super anti-natalist super liberal super anti-natalist super liberal super progressive woman like you know feminism progressive woman like you know feminism progressive woman like you know feminism is a a very big broad bucket term that is a a very big broad bucket term that is a a very big broad bucket term that includes everything and I think that includes everything and I think that includes everything and I think that manosphere is basically menism was just manosphere is basically menism was just manosphere is basically menism was just too weird of a term so manosphere is too weird of a term so manosphere is too weird of a term so manosphere is sort of the online equivalent of what sort of the online equivalent of what sort of the online equivalent of what feminism is and shared audiences feminism is and shared audiences feminism is and shared audiences don't really indicate shared motives. don't really indicate shared motives. don't really indicate shared motives. But I can say is somebody that I think I But I can say is somebody that I think I But I can say is somebody that I think I do good work. I think I do I I try to do good work. I think I do I I try to do good work. I think I do I I try to create a a balanced approach for helping create a a balanced approach for helping create a a balanced approach for helping men and women to understand each other men and women to understand each other men and women to understand each other and improve their lives, but it's a it's and improve their lives, but it's a it's and improve their lives, but it's a it's a difficult needle to thread to just a difficult needle to thread to just a difficult needle to thread to just talk to men at all. And um you know, you talk to men at all. And um you know, you talk to men at all. And um you know, you use a a small clip I think of Scott use a a small clip I think of Scott use a a small clip I think of Scott Galloway uh at one point in in the Galloway uh at one point in in the Galloway uh at one point in in the documentary. Um, Richard Reeves as well documentary. Um, Richard Reeves as well documentary. Um, Richard Reeves as well from the American Institute of Boys and from the American Institute of Boys and from the American Institute of Boys and Men is sort of tangential to him. Or Men is sort of tangential to him. Or Men is sort of tangential to him. Or Arthur Brooks, like is Arthur Brooks and Arthur Brooks, like is Arthur Brooks and Arthur Brooks, like is Arthur Brooks and Scott Galloway, are they really the the Scott Galloway, are they really the the Scott Galloway, are they really the the [ __ ] cutting edge of of misogynistic [ __ ] cutting edge of of misogynistic [ __ ] cutting edge of of misogynistic content online? And then I see someone content online? And then I see someone content online? And then I see someone like a Scott Galloway talk about guys like a Scott Galloway talk about guys like a Scott Galloway talk about guys should be strong or or they should go to should be strong or or they should go to should be strong or or they should go to the gym or young people should go out the gym or young people should go out the gym or young people should go out and have experiences and and make and have experiences and and make and have experiences and and make mistakes. And, you know, he's concerned mistakes. And, you know, he's concerned mistakes. And, you know, he's concerned about the decline of alcohol. he thinks about the decline of alcohol. he thinks about the decline of alcohol. he thinks that people should be going out and that people should be going out and that people should be going out and getting drunk when they're young and getting drunk when they're young and getting drunk when they're young and whatever. Um, whatever. Um, whatever. Um, I think it's difficult or I found it I think it's difficult or I found it I think it's difficult or I found it increasingly difficult to be able to increasingly difficult to be able to increasingly difficult to be able to speak to the issues of men and boys and speak to the issues of men and boys and speak to the issues of men and boys and what's happening with gender relations what's happening with gender relations what's happening with gender relations and and sex and declining coupling and and and sex and declining coupling and and and sex and declining coupling and all that stuff. It's be become all that stuff. It's be become all that stuff. It's be become increasingly difficult for me to do that increasingly difficult for me to do that increasingly difficult for me to do that without being without being without being yeah lumped in with yeah lumped in with yeah lumped in with audiences that may cross over but audiences that may cross over but audiences that may cross over but ideologies that don't really have all ideologies that don't really have all ideologies that don't really have all that much in common. And um it's made it that much in common. And um it's made it that much in common. And um it's made it it's it's it's been a really interesting it's it's it's been a really interesting it's it's it's been a really interesting challenge because obviously people are challenge because obviously people are challenge because obviously people are pointing at lots of the same issues uh pointing at lots of the same issues uh pointing at lots of the same issues uh but their uh diagnosis and then but their uh diagnosis and then but their uh diagnosis and then treatment plan uh diverge an awful lot. treatment plan uh diverge an awful lot. treatment plan uh diverge an awful lot. So yeah, it's it was very interesting So yeah, it's it was very interesting So yeah, it's it was very interesting watching the documentary. watching the documentary. watching the documentary. >> I hear that. And I'm really curious to >> I hear that. And I'm really curious to >> I hear that. And I'm really curious to know, Chris, because you mentioned know, Chris, because you mentioned know, Chris, because you mentioned earlier that you felt you'd had a bit of earlier that you felt you'd had a bit of earlier that you felt you'd had a bit of uh flack for for something or other. Uh uh flack for for something or other. Uh uh flack for for something or other. Uh are are you able to share anything about are are you able to share anything about are are you able to share anything about that? that? that? >> Yeah, I I mean it's more general flack. >> Yeah, I I mean it's more general flack. >> Yeah, I I mean it's more general flack. It's kind of uh rain rather than atomic It's kind of uh rain rather than atomic It's kind of uh rain rather than atomic warheads. But um yeah, there's warheads. But um yeah, there's warheads. But um yeah, there's disagreements disagreements disagreements around typically it's that I'm too around typically it's that I'm too around typically it's that I'm too bluepilled that I don't see I know the bluepilled that I don't see I know the bluepilled that I don't see I know the truth about truth about truth about how men and women are supposed to relate how men and women are supposed to relate how men and women are supposed to relate but I'm not prepared to be sufficiently but I'm not prepared to be sufficiently but I'm not prepared to be sufficiently militant or militant or militant or harsh ination of it. harsh ination of it. harsh ination of it. >> I I thought you meant that you'd had >> I I thought you meant that you'd had >> I I thought you meant that you'd had flack from the the legacy media. Oh, flack from the the legacy media. Oh, flack from the the legacy media. Oh, I've also got that. I've also got that I've also got that. I've also got that I've also got that. I've also got that >> for being too manosphere adjacent. >> for being too manosphere adjacent. >> for being too manosphere adjacent. >> Oh, that's correct. So, yeah, the >> Oh, that's correct. So, yeah, the >> Oh, that's correct. So, yeah, the manosphere think I'm a bluepilled cook manosphere think I'm a bluepilled cook manosphere think I'm a bluepilled cook and the Guardian think that I'm a and the Guardian think that I'm a and the Guardian think that I'm a misogynist right-winger. So, I get I get misogynist right-winger. So, I get I get misogynist right-winger. So, I get I get kind of ideologically spit roasted from kind of ideologically spit roasted from kind of ideologically spit roasted from either side. I've got sort of one in the either side. I've got sort of one in the either side. I've got sort of one in the front and one in the back. Um, but yeah, front and one in the back. Um, but yeah, front and one in the back. Um, but yeah, the start of this year was tons and tons the start of this year was tons and tons the start of this year was tons and tons Manosphere influencer Chris Williamson Manosphere influencer Chris Williamson Manosphere influencer Chris Williamson talks about this blah blah blah blah talks about this blah blah blah blah talks about this blah blah blah blah blah blah. And I h that's interesting blah blah. And I h that's interesting blah blah. And I h that's interesting because the term manosphere has now been because the term manosphere has now been because the term manosphere has now been inflated to encompass inflated to encompass inflated to encompass so much that it basically so much that it basically so much that it basically it it doesn't really mean anything. If it it doesn't really mean anything. If it it doesn't really mean anything. If if I am the same as if me, Richard if I am the same as if me, Richard if I am the same as if me, Richard Reeves, Scott Galloway are the same as Reeves, Scott Galloway are the same as Reeves, Scott Galloway are the same as Nick Fuentes and Myron and Justin and Nick Fuentes and Myron and Justin and Nick Fuentes and Myron and Justin and Andrew and Sneo. Uh well, I mean it it Andrew and Sneo. Uh well, I mean it it Andrew and Sneo. Uh well, I mean it it doesn't seem to be a particularly doesn't seem to be a particularly doesn't seem to be a particularly granular or accurate presentation and I granular or accurate presentation and I granular or accurate presentation and I don't think that they would agree that don't think that they would agree that don't think that they would agree that they agree with much of the stuff that I they agree with much of the stuff that I they agree with much of the stuff that I say if you were to put it to sort of lay say if you were to put it to sort of lay say if you were to put it to sort of lay it at their feet. it at their feet. it at their feet. Agreed. I mean, it's a the term is Agreed. I mean, it's a the term is Agreed. I mean, it's a the term is highly inexact and and and actually highly inexact and and and actually highly inexact and and and actually you're right and I've been on Theo you're right and I've been on Theo you're right and I've been on Theo Vaughn and I've been on Joe Rogan and uh Vaughn and I've been on Joe Rogan and uh Vaughn and I've been on Joe Rogan and uh I I like those guys and and and I know I I like those guys and and and I know I I like those guys and and and I know those have been characterized as those have been characterized as those have been characterized as >> Man Jordan Peterson would be the same. >> Man Jordan Peterson would be the same. >> Man Jordan Peterson would be the same. Andrew Huberman would be the same Andrew Huberman would be the same Andrew Huberman would be the same >> and in fact as you say there's a huge >> and in fact as you say there's a huge >> and in fact as you say there's a huge gulf uh there's a huge spectrum within gulf uh there's a huge spectrum within gulf uh there's a huge spectrum within the the so-called manosphere community. the the so-called manosphere community. the the so-called manosphere community. We debated it a lot in the process of We debated it a lot in the process of We debated it a lot in the process of making the film. I was I said many times making the film. I was I said many times making the film. I was I said many times like I'm not about to make a film where like I'm not about to make a film where like I'm not about to make a film where it's like look at these guys. They like it's like look at these guys. They like it's like look at these guys. They like to have big muscles and they want to to have big muscles and they want to to have big muscles and they want to make a lot of money, you know, hustle make a lot of money, you know, hustle make a lot of money, you know, hustle bro culture and whatnot. That's not I bro culture and whatnot. That's not I bro culture and whatnot. That's not I don't find that interesting. I don't don't find that interesting. I don't don't find that interesting. I don't find it particularly it might not be my find it particularly it might not be my find it particularly it might not be my lane, but I actually I like working out. lane, but I actually I like working out. lane, but I actually I like working out. You know what I mean? And I and I and I You know what I mean? And I and I and I You know what I mean? And I and I and I feel like self-reliance can is is can be feel like self-reliance can is is can be feel like self-reliance can is is can be super important super important super important and that and it's healthy to have a kind and that and it's healthy to have a kind and that and it's healthy to have a kind of mixed diet of of kind of media intake of mixed diet of of kind of media intake of mixed diet of of kind of media intake and um so my thing was like oh we're and and um so my thing was like oh we're and and um so my thing was like oh we're and we do try and clarify in the documentary we do try and clarify in the documentary we do try and clarify in the documentary like this is the extreme end of a like this is the extreme end of a like this is the extreme end of a certain world and they are a certain world and they are a certain world and they are a self-identified self-identified self-identified community the ones we look at um they community the ones we look at um they community the ones we look at um they they very much see themselves you know they very much see themselves you know they very much see themselves you know sne Nico, sne Nico, sne Nico, Justin Waller, Myron from Fresh and Fit. Justin Waller, Myron from Fresh and Fit. Justin Waller, Myron from Fresh and Fit. They all they all they're all they are They all they all they're all they are They all they all they're all they are all quite tight those three. Uh somewhat all quite tight those three. Uh somewhat all quite tight those three. Uh somewhat adjacent to uh Nick Fuentes in fact and adjacent to uh Nick Fuentes in fact and adjacent to uh Nick Fuentes in fact and certainly Andrew Tate is tight with certainly Andrew Tate is tight with certainly Andrew Tate is tight with them. It's a certain so there's I I them. It's a certain so there's I I them. It's a certain so there's I I think the more we can avoid a conflation think the more we can avoid a conflation think the more we can avoid a conflation of you know everyone who happens to have of you know everyone who happens to have of you know everyone who happens to have a male audience or everyone who a male audience or everyone who a male audience or everyone who advocates for some sort of sense of like advocates for some sort of sense of like advocates for some sort of sense of like there's certain things that are helpful there's certain things that are helpful there's certain things that are helpful for men tend to find helpful and it's for men tend to find helpful and it's for men tend to find helpful and it's good for their mental health good for their mental health good for their mental health >> you know as opposed to oh the world's >> you know as opposed to oh the world's >> you know as opposed to oh the world's run by a shadowy room of you know like run by a shadowy room of you know like run by a shadowy room of you know like these kind of con it's very there's a these kind of con it's very there's a these kind of con it's very there's a there's a conspiracy mindset in the there's a conspiracy mindset in the there's a conspiracy mindset in the world that I was looking at there's a it world that I was looking at there's a it world that I was looking at there's a it is quite a specific ific uh rather is quite a specific ific uh rather is quite a specific ific uh rather paranoid I would say um narrow a kind of paranoid I would say um narrow a kind of paranoid I would say um narrow a kind of narrow understanding of how the world narrow understanding of how the world narrow understanding of how the world works. A narrow understanding of what works. A narrow understanding of what works. A narrow understanding of what men and women are narrow sense of what men and women are narrow sense of what men and women are narrow sense of what achievement and success look like. achievement and success look like. achievement and success look like. >> Uh and and that was that was very much >> Uh and and that was that was very much >> Uh and and that was that was very much the precinct that I wanted the film to the precinct that I wanted the film to the precinct that I wanted the film to take place in. Yeah, I mean, you're take place in. Yeah, I mean, you're take place in. Yeah, I mean, you're right to say that men's self-improvement right to say that men's self-improvement right to say that men's self-improvement often gets lumped in with this stuff, often gets lumped in with this stuff, often gets lumped in with this stuff, but you know, male forms of self-repair but you know, male forms of self-repair but you know, male forms of self-repair are often treated with suspicion. It's are often treated with suspicion. It's are often treated with suspicion. It's as though sort of any attempt by men to as though sort of any attempt by men to as though sort of any attempt by men to rebuild themselves outside of approved rebuild themselves outside of approved rebuild themselves outside of approved therapeutic and ideological channels is therapeutic and ideological channels is therapeutic and ideological channels is is is contaminated in some way. If you is is contaminated in some way. If you is is contaminated in some way. If you are that's a probably the best example I are that's a probably the best example I are that's a probably the best example I can think of and I'm sure that he's been can think of and I'm sure that he's been can think of and I'm sure that he's been accused of it. Andrew Huberman, Dr. accused of it. Andrew Huberman, Dr. accused of it. Andrew Huberman, Dr. Andrew Humeman of Stanford is part of Andrew Humeman of Stanford is part of Andrew Humeman of Stanford is part of the manosphere because what he talks the manosphere because what he talks the manosphere because what he talks about like evidence-based ways to sleep about like evidence-based ways to sleep about like evidence-based ways to sleep better or gain muscle or how much better or gain muscle or how much better or gain muscle or how much caffeine you should have per day or caffeine you should have per day or caffeine you should have per day or something. Um it it seems to be that something. Um it it seems to be that something. Um it it seems to be that there's sort of two things happening at there's sort of two things happening at there's sort of two things happening at the same time. One is a big push of the same time. One is a big push of the same time. One is a big push of which I'm like unapologetically a part which I'm like unapologetically a part which I'm like unapologetically a part of that I think that the issues of boys of that I think that the issues of boys of that I think that the issues of boys and men need to be spoken about more and men need to be spoken about more and men need to be spoken about more that I don't think that we need to do that I don't think that we need to do that I don't think that we need to do this this this ideological land acknowledgement throat ideological land acknowledgement throat ideological land acknowledgement throat clearing before where we identify the clearing before where we identify the clearing before where we identify the problems that all other groups are problems that all other groups are problems that all other groups are facing before we can turn our attention facing before we can turn our attention facing before we can turn our attention to men because we don't have to do the to men because we don't have to do the to men because we don't have to do the same in reverse. We don't have to same in reverse. We don't have to same in reverse. We don't have to acknowledge how many men take their own acknowledge how many men take their own acknowledge how many men take their own lives are addicted to drugs or involved lives are addicted to drugs or involved lives are addicted to drugs or involved in violent crime or go to jail or end up in violent crime or go to jail or end up in violent crime or go to jail or end up home etc etc before we can then talk home etc etc before we can then talk home etc etc before we can then talk about the problems of girls and women. about the problems of girls and women. about the problems of girls and women. Uh but so one thing is happening which Uh but so one thing is happening which Uh but so one thing is happening which is I think that there's been some is I think that there's been some is I think that there's been some upending of upending of upending of previous roots toward a sense of previous roots toward a sense of previous roots toward a sense of belonging and fulfillment and status belonging and fulfillment and status belonging and fulfillment and status that men would have previously relied that men would have previously relied that men would have previously relied on. And I think that that puts them in a on. And I think that that puts them in a on. And I think that that puts them in a kind of a very uncertain world. Uh a lot kind of a very uncertain world. Uh a lot kind of a very uncertain world. Uh a lot of the rules that they would have of the rules that they would have of the rules that they would have learned from their parents' generation, learned from their parents' generation, learned from their parents' generation, certainly their grandparents' certainly their grandparents' certainly their grandparents' generation, it's been such a huge generation, it's been such a huge generation, it's been such a huge generational shift. We've now grown up, generational shift. We've now grown up, generational shift. We've now grown up, this generation's grown up on the this generation's grown up on the this generation's grown up on the internet relying with online content internet relying with online content internet relying with online content creators, a changing socioeconomic creators, a changing socioeconomic creators, a changing socioeconomic landscape where women out earn and out landscape where women out earn and out landscape where women out earn and out educate men up to the age of 30. Uh all educate men up to the age of 30. Uh all educate men up to the age of 30. Uh all of this, okay, so how am I supposed to of this, okay, so how am I supposed to of this, okay, so how am I supposed to navigate this as a man? I don't know. navigate this as a man? I don't know. navigate this as a man? I don't know. We've got the most fatherless homes that We've got the most fatherless homes that We've got the most fatherless homes that we've ever seen. So the previous we've ever seen. So the previous we've ever seen. So the previous patriarchs that would have probably patriarchs that would have probably patriarchs that would have probably stepped into those shoes and would have stepped into those shoes and would have stepped into those shoes and would have filled those sorts of roles, they've now filled those sorts of roles, they've now filled those sorts of roles, they've now vacated. Okay. So who do we turn to? vacated. Okay. So who do we turn to? vacated. Okay. So who do we turn to? Well, I've got the internet and this Well, I've got the internet and this Well, I've got the internet and this thing's on there. Now again, all of that thing's on there. Now again, all of that thing's on there. Now again, all of that is, I think, important to be addressed is, I think, important to be addressed is, I think, important to be addressed and that young boys and men need to be and that young boys and men need to be and that young boys and men need to be given some really great role models, given some really great role models, given some really great role models, archetypes, game plans, blueprints for archetypes, game plans, blueprints for archetypes, game plans, blueprints for how to do this. I'm sure that you would how to do this. I'm sure that you would how to do this. I'm sure that you would even as a present father it would be even as a present father it would be even as a present father it would be like I the more good information that my like I the more good information that my like I the more good information that my boys can access on the internet the boys can access on the internet the boys can access on the internet the better that seems like a good very pro better that seems like a good very pro better that seems like a good very pro thing to do and also at the same time thing to do and also at the same time thing to do and also at the same time there is a massive moral panic around there is a massive moral panic around there is a massive moral panic around extremist viciferous content online that extremist viciferous content online that extremist viciferous content online that is pipelining boys and men to believe in is pipelining boys and men to believe in is pipelining boys and men to believe in these sorts of crazy things and it seems these sorts of crazy things and it seems these sorts of crazy things and it seems like the uh legitimate concerns about like the uh legitimate concerns about like the uh legitimate concerns about the second one are used to sort of smear the second one are used to sort of smear the second one are used to sort of smear everything from the first one that as everything from the first one that as everything from the first one that as soon as you start to talk about male soon as you start to talk about male soon as you start to talk about male self-improvement that the the the term I self-improvement that the the the term I self-improvement that the the the term I mean again the fact that I was accused mean again the fact that I was accused mean again the fact that I was accused of being a luxer a term that's been of being a luxer a term that's been of being a luxer a term that's been around as far as I can see for about 3 around as far as I can see for about 3 around as far as I can see for about 3 seconds. seconds. seconds. >> Who who accused you of being a Luxer? >> Who who accused you of being a Luxer? >> Who who accused you of being a Luxer? some news some news some news some news article uh Lux Maxer Chris some news article uh Lux Maxer Chris some news article uh Lux Maxer Chris Williamson I I mean that feels a little Williamson I I mean that feels a little Williamson I I mean that feels a little bit like telling somebody uh it's it's a bit like telling somebody uh it's it's a bit like telling somebody uh it's it's a little bit of a strange sort of insult I little bit of a strange sort of insult I little bit of a strange sort of insult I suppose uh given that I haven't tried so suppose uh given that I haven't tried so suppose uh given that I haven't tried so you know I just sort of that I just woke you know I just sort of that I just woke you know I just sort of that I just woke up like this Lux Maxer thing um up like this Lux Maxer thing um up like this Lux Maxer thing um I it's it's just interesting these two I it's it's just interesting these two I it's it's just interesting these two worlds exist at the same time right one worlds exist at the same time right one worlds exist at the same time right one >> yeah I think that's really well put I >> yeah I think that's really well put I >> yeah I think that's really well put I think you broke it down beautifully and think you broke it down beautifully and think you broke it down beautifully and and Um, but just parenthetically as and Um, but just parenthetically as and Um, but just parenthetically as well, have you been following the whole well, have you been following the whole well, have you been following the whole clavvicular phenomenon? clavvicular phenomenon? clavvicular phenomenon? >> I you I was I was going to ask whether >> I you I was I was going to ask whether >> I you I was I was going to ask whether or not you have a an intention of of or not you have a an intention of of or not you have a an intention of of maybe looking at the world of luxing in maybe looking at the world of luxing in maybe looking at the world of luxing in future. future. future. >> Clvicular as they said like after >> Clvicular as they said like after >> Clvicular as they said like after because we filming because we filming because we filming our documentary, which by the way is on our documentary, which by the way is on our documentary, which by the way is on Netflix. We're going to do a brazen plug Netflix. We're going to do a brazen plug Netflix. We're going to do a brazen plug as of I don't know if it's as of I don't know if it's as of I don't know if it's >> it'll be out. Yes, it's out now. It's >> it'll be out. Yes, it's out now. It's >> it'll be out. Yes, it's out now. It's out now. It's out now. and and um which out now. It's out now. and and um which out now. It's out now. and and um which is exciting because I've made stuff is exciting because I've made stuff is exciting because I've made stuff mainly for the BBC and and and and this mainly for the BBC and and and and this mainly for the BBC and and and and this is my first Bora as as a Netflix as is my first Bora as as a Netflix as is my first Bora as as a Netflix as maker of a Netflix original. It's it's maker of a Netflix original. It's it's maker of a Netflix original. It's it's crazy to think how how many like well I crazy to think how how many like well I crazy to think how how many like well I don't know how many people going to don't know how many people going to don't know how many people going to stream it but it's available worldwide stream it but it's available worldwide stream it but it's available worldwide but the the um we filmed it until about but the the um we filmed it until about but the the um we filmed it until about late last year like maybe August late last year like maybe August late last year like maybe August September having started early in the September having started early in the September having started early in the year like January February and then uh year like January February and then uh year like January February and then uh and then in the following few months I and then in the following few months I and then in the following few months I remember one of my kids came down like remember one of my kids came down like remember one of my kids came down like dad check this out and I it was some dad check this out and I it was some dad check this out and I it was some piece of clavvicular content and I did piece of clavvicular content and I did piece of clavvicular content and I did not think he was going to blow up the not think he was going to blow up the not think he was going to blow up the way he did I just thought oh well he's way he did I just thought oh well he's way he did I just thought oh well he's He's uh he's kind of very good-looking He's uh he's kind of very good-looking He's uh he's kind of very good-looking guy who he seemed I don't know like he guy who he seemed I don't know like he guy who he seemed I don't know like he was just doing what he was doing. But uh was just doing what he was doing. But uh was just doing what he was doing. But uh and then Ed Matthews comment was like, and then Ed Matthews comment was like, and then Ed Matthews comment was like, "Oh, he would have been in the "Oh, he would have been in the "Oh, he would have been in the documentary, but he spawned into the documentary, but he spawned into the documentary, but he spawned into the game too late." I just like the game too late." I just like the game too late." I just like the >> It's true. >> It's true. >> It's true. >> But it's kind of true. >> But it's kind of true. >> But it's kind of true. >> It's kind of true. They're all avatars >> It's kind of true. They're all avatars >> It's kind of true. They're all avatars uh of some sort of social media. uh of some sort of social media. uh of some sort of social media. >> The the the clavvicular thing is is I >> The the the clavvicular thing is is I >> The the the clavvicular thing is is I think different. Um, and the reason that think different. Um, and the reason that think different. Um, and the reason that I think that and I I I actually think I think that and I I I actually think I think that and I I I actually think that we're seeing the what could be if that we're seeing the what could be if that we're seeing the what could be if it takes hold the beginning of sort of it takes hold the beginning of sort of it takes hold the beginning of sort of the new phase of the manosphere. So I I the new phase of the manosphere. So I I the new phase of the manosphere. So I I had this I had this conception I'll see had this I had this conception I'll see had this I had this conception I'll see if you agree with it that the manosphere if you agree with it that the manosphere if you agree with it that the manosphere kind of had three waves kind of like kind of had three waves kind of like kind of had three waves kind of like feminism. So the first one was pickup feminism. So the first one was pickup feminism. So the first one was pickup artistry and that was Neil Strauss and artistry and that was Neil Strauss and artistry and that was Neil Strauss and the game. It was negging. Uh, and it was the game. It was negging. Uh, and it was the game. It was negging. Uh, and it was basically completely whitewashed when Me basically completely whitewashed when Me basically completely whitewashed when Me Too came along because there was no way Too came along because there was no way Too came along because there was no way that this sort of brazen uh we just want that this sort of brazen uh we just want that this sort of brazen uh we just want to have casual sex with women, use them to have casual sex with women, use them to have casual sex with women, use them and discard them thing could have and discard them thing could have and discard them thing could have survived Harvey Weinstein. It just it survived Harvey Weinstein. It just it survived Harvey Weinstein. It just it straight up couldn't couldn't have straight up couldn't couldn't have straight up couldn't couldn't have existed anymore. It was too it was seen existed anymore. It was too it was seen existed anymore. It was too it was seen as too unsanitary. So then what comes as too unsanitary. So then what comes as too unsanitary. So then what comes out next is more red pill and that's out next is more red pill and that's out next is more red pill and that's alphas and betas and cucks and soy boys alphas and betas and cucks and soy boys alphas and betas and cucks and soy boys and you know that's kind of the world and you know that's kind of the world and you know that's kind of the world that you inhabited and then it seems to that you inhabited and then it seems to that you inhabited and then it seems to me that the next one that might be me that the next one that might be me that the next one that might be coming online is actually a disregarding coming online is actually a disregarding coming online is actually a disregarding of women. Like if you listen to what of women. Like if you listen to what of women. Like if you listen to what clvicular talks about he's not bothered clvicular talks about he's not bothered clvicular talks about he's not bothered about women. It's actually much closer about women. It's actually much closer about women. It's actually much closer closer to the black pill than it is to closer to the black pill than it is to closer to the black pill than it is to the red pill. It's not about maybe to the red pill. It's not about maybe to the red pill. It's not about maybe to some degree it's about gaining money but some degree it's about gaining money but some degree it's about gaining money but I don't even hear that as a stated goal. I don't even hear that as a stated goal. I don't even hear that as a stated goal. It's literally about male male It's literally about male male It's literally about male male intraexual competition. That's what intraexual competition. That's what intraexual competition. That's what mocking is right. It's about I am the mocking is right. It's about I am the mocking is right. It's about I am the most formidable looking even if I'm not most formidable looking even if I'm not most formidable looking even if I'm not the most formidable. I'm not seeing the most formidable. I'm not seeing the most formidable. I'm not seeing people talking about actually becoming people talking about actually becoming people talking about actually becoming fighters actually becoming sort of hard fighters actually becoming sort of hard fighters actually becoming sort of hard men but just looking like hard men. It's men but just looking like hard men. It's men but just looking like hard men. It's actually a really feminized way of actually a really feminized way of actually a really feminized way of becoming super masculine. Right. It's becoming super masculine. Right. It's becoming super masculine. Right. It's using cosmetic surgery. It's using using cosmetic surgery. It's using using cosmetic surgery. It's using beautifification and enhancement. It's beautifification and enhancement. It's beautifification and enhancement. It's using different clothing. It's think using different clothing. It's think using different clothing. It's think spending a lot of time thinking about spending a lot of time thinking about spending a lot of time thinking about sort of the way that you look, not sort of the way that you look, not sort of the way that you look, not necessarily what you can do. So, it's a necessarily what you can do. So, it's a necessarily what you can do. So, it's a focus on appearance rather than focus on appearance rather than focus on appearance rather than competence. And um it's not in any way competence. And um it's not in any way competence. And um it's not in any way concerned with women, the approval of concerned with women, the approval of concerned with women, the approval of women. You know, you there is a a world women. You know, you there is a a world women. You know, you there is a a world in which you could have said that the in which you could have said that the in which you could have said that the red pill was the romantic pill because red pill was the romantic pill because red pill was the romantic pill because regardless of whether or not it was regardless of whether or not it was regardless of whether or not it was particularly typically romantic, it was particularly typically romantic, it was particularly typically romantic, it was still very much concerned with the still very much concerned with the still very much concerned with the approval of women even if it was in approval of women even if it was in approval of women even if it was in their disregard uh the the the their disregard uh the the the their disregard uh the the the relationship between women. And I don't relationship between women. And I don't relationship between women. And I don't think that we're seeing that. I don't think that we're seeing that. I don't think that we're seeing that. I don't think we're seeing that with think we're seeing that with think we're seeing that with >> That's interesting. Yeah. is reminding >> That's interesting. Yeah. is reminding >> That's interesting. Yeah. is reminding me a bit of mugw men going their own way me a bit of mugw men going their own way me a bit of mugw men going their own way and and you know which is as you say and and you know which is as you say and and you know which is as you say like the ultimate black pill where you like the ultimate black pill where you like the ultimate black pill where you sort of think you know what women I sort of think you know what women I sort of think you know what women I can't deal with them you know what you can't deal with them you know what you can't deal with them you know what you was I was also thinking about because I was I was also thinking about because I was I was also thinking about because I think in addition to the message you think in addition to the message you think in addition to the message you have to think about the means of have to think about the means of have to think about the means of delivery and so much of this as I said delivery and so much of this as I said delivery and so much of this as I said earlier with like iceberg slim versus earlier with like iceberg slim versus earlier with like iceberg slim versus Andrew Tate the message might be similar Andrew Tate the message might be similar Andrew Tate the message might be similar but the means of delivery makes it but the means of delivery makes it but the means of delivery makes it something else like I think Andrew Tate something else like I think Andrew Tate something else like I think Andrew Tate in many respects was a was side effect in many respects was a was side effect in many respects was a was side effect of kind of the Tik Tok algorithm. You of kind of the Tik Tok algorithm. You of kind of the Tik Tok algorithm. You mentioned PUA, the pickup artistry mentioned PUA, the pickup artistry mentioned PUA, the pickup artistry community were communicating largely community were communicating largely community were communicating largely through books and seminars like come to through books and seminars like come to through books and seminars like come to Las Vegas for a 3-day immersive in how Las Vegas for a 3-day immersive in how Las Vegas for a 3-day immersive in how to pick up women. You think about the to pick up women. You think about the to pick up women. You think about the red pill that was communicated in red pill that was communicated in red pill that was communicated in podcasts and YouTube but whereas this podcasts and YouTube but whereas this podcasts and YouTube but whereas this new iteration is a live streaming new iteration is a live streaming new iteration is a live streaming phenomenon and and specifically phenomenon and and specifically phenomenon and and specifically clvicular he's not the first looks maxer clvicular he's not the first looks maxer clvicular he's not the first looks maxer at all but he's the first looks maxer at all but he's the first looks maxer at all but he's the first looks maxer that live streams uh uh that I'm aware that live streams uh uh that I'm aware that live streams uh uh that I'm aware of and in that live streaming of and in that live streaming of and in that live streaming environment you're not really conveying environment you're not really conveying environment you're not really conveying it's not like a howto as such it's a it's not like a howto as such it's a it's not like a howto as such it's a much more fluid experience of kind of much more fluid experience of kind of much more fluid experience of kind of forming an attachment to someone and forming an attachment to someone and forming an attachment to someone and seeing them exploring the world and seeing them exploring the world and seeing them exploring the world and getting into scrapes. So, he sort of has getting into scrapes. So, he sort of has getting into scrapes. So, he sort of has the luxury of not really needing a the luxury of not really needing a the luxury of not really needing a message, his message seems to be um message, his message seems to be um message, his message seems to be um other than the fact that if you're other than the fact that if you're other than the fact that if you're really good-looking, you can kind of really good-looking, you can kind of really good-looking, you can kind of hack the system, right? That's there's hack the system, right? That's there's hack the system, right? That's there's not, you know, he seems politically not, you know, he seems politically not, you know, he seems politically ambiguous. He seems to say almost ambiguous. He seems to say almost ambiguous. He seems to say almost anything. I mean always hesitate with anything. I mean always hesitate with anything. I mean always hesitate with almost anything but you know his whole almost anything but you know his whole almost anything but you know his whole thing like he supports Gavin Newsome thing like he supports Gavin Newsome thing like he supports Gavin Newsome over JD Vance because Newsome's better over JD Vance because Newsome's better over JD Vance because Newsome's better looking and Vance looks like a hobbit, looking and Vance looks like a hobbit, looking and Vance looks like a hobbit, right? Subhuman which and everyone and right? Subhuman which and everyone and right? Subhuman which and everyone and all the red pill community. It was kind all the red pill community. It was kind all the red pill community. It was kind of a in a weird way a genius move as a of a in a weird way a genius move as a of a in a weird way a genius move as a way of distinguishing himself from the way of distinguishing himself from the way of distinguishing himself from the red pill, right? He's like I don't red pill, right? He's like I don't red pill, right? He's like I don't really care about I'm so empty. I'm so really care about I'm so empty. I'm so really care about I'm so empty. I'm so utterly utterly utterly um amoral that I'm going to endorse the um amoral that I'm going to endorse the um amoral that I'm going to endorse the the person who embodies a sort of kind the person who embodies a sort of kind the person who embodies a sort of kind of California progressive mentality, of California progressive mentality, of California progressive mentality, right? And everyone's like, "What the right? And everyone's like, "What the right? And everyone's like, "What the actual like that was the most outrageous actual like that was the most outrageous actual like that was the most outrageous thing he could do at that point, you thing he could do at that point, you thing he could do at that point, you know what I mean? know what I mean? know what I mean? >> He's better looking." >> He's better looking." >> He's better looking." >> Yeah. In other news, you've probably >> Yeah. In other news, you've probably >> Yeah. In other news, you've probably heard me talk about Element before, and heard me talk about Element before, and heard me talk about Element before, and that's because I am frankly dependent on that's because I am frankly dependent on that's because I am frankly dependent on it. Uh, and it's how I've started my day it. Uh, and it's how I've started my day it. Uh, and it's how I've started my day every single morning. This is the best every single morning. This is the best every single morning. 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And by the way, and I also want to say like I think your I also want to say like I think your I also want to say like I think your point about people talking past each point about people talking past each point about people talking past each other, like one of the things I other, like one of the things I other, like one of the things I have observed like in all the years of have observed like in all the years of have observed like in all the years of making documentaries is very often making documentaries is very often making documentaries is very often people who are disagreeing aren't really people who are disagreeing aren't really people who are disagreeing aren't really disagreeing. They're just sort of disagreeing. They're just sort of disagreeing. They're just sort of selecting a different data set and then selecting a different data set and then selecting a different data set and then um and then arguing past each other. You um and then arguing past each other. You um and then arguing past each other. You know what I mean? And none of them's know what I mean? And none of them's know what I mean? And none of them's particularly disconnected from the particularly disconnected from the particularly disconnected from the facts. Like they just, you know, there's facts. Like they just, you know, there's facts. Like they just, you know, there's some truth in that concept of some truth in that concept of some truth in that concept of alternative facts. like they there can alternative facts. like they there can alternative facts. like they there can be different groups of facts and then be different groups of facts and then be different groups of facts and then you select the data set that supports you select the data set that supports you select the data set that supports your argument. So you I could identify your argument. So you I could identify your argument. So you I could identify toxic manosphere figures and then call toxic manosphere figures and then call toxic manosphere figures and then call you manosphere and then suddenly you you manosphere and then suddenly you you manosphere and then suddenly you look toxic, right? Um, so I I think the look toxic, right? Um, so I I think the look toxic, right? Um, so I I think the conversation has become um characterized conversation has become um characterized conversation has become um characterized by bad a little bit of bad faith in by bad a little bit of bad faith in by bad a little bit of bad faith in terms of uh attempting to stigmatize terms of uh attempting to stigmatize terms of uh attempting to stigmatize anyone who expresses relatively anyone who expresses relatively anyone who expresses relatively uncontroversial opinions about um well uncontroversial opinions about um well uncontroversial opinions about um well maybe there are some differences between maybe there are some differences between maybe there are some differences between many men and many women that are worth many men and many women that are worth many men and many women that are worth considering while never allowing that to considering while never allowing that to considering while never allowing that to kind of be overly prescriptive or lock kind of be overly prescriptive or lock kind of be overly prescriptive or lock people into pre-ordained identities. The people into pre-ordained identities. The people into pre-ordained identities. The part that I I agree with um I think in part that I I agree with um I think in part that I I agree with um I think in general general general like well I think I've answered the like well I think I've answered the like well I think I've answered the question like I think in general it's question like I think in general it's question like I think in general it's helpful to recognize there are helpful to recognize there are helpful to recognize there are differences between me most men and most differences between me most men and most differences between me most men and most women like without privileging them or women like without privileging them or women like without privileging them or raifying them you know it would be but raifying them you know it would be but raifying them you know it would be but again I it's kind of crazy that I have again I it's kind of crazy that I have again I it's kind of crazy that I have to be careful how I say this but to be careful how I say this but to be careful how I say this but >> this is the throat clearing thing this >> this is the throat clearing thing this >> this is the throat clearing thing this is the the sensitivity around this is the the sensitivity around this is the the sensitivity around this discussion discussion discussion >> and that actually I'm a fan of um I tend >> and that actually I'm a fan of um I tend >> and that actually I'm a fan of um I tend to think uh you know so so in terms to think uh you know so so in terms to think uh you know so so in terms their content. Like I like their content. Like I like their content. Like I like self-reliance. Like I like exercise. I self-reliance. Like I like exercise. I self-reliance. Like I like exercise. I think the idea of aspiring to be the think the idea of aspiring to be the think the idea of aspiring to be the best version of yourself is valid. I best version of yourself is valid. I best version of yourself is valid. I think attempting to fix yourself first. think attempting to fix yourself first. think attempting to fix yourself first. Think about um ways in which you can Think about um ways in which you can Think about um ways in which you can kind of attain some kind of mastery over kind of attain some kind of mastery over kind of attain some kind of mastery over your life, right? Don't spend your hours your life, right? Don't spend your hours your life, right? Don't spend your hours endlessly looking at um the internet, endlessly looking at um the internet, endlessly looking at um the internet, playing video games, looking at adult playing video games, looking at adult playing video games, looking at adult content, you know, uh you know, it's a content, you know, uh you know, it's a content, you know, uh you know, it's a paradox of the world that many much of paradox of the world that many much of paradox of the world that many much of the you know, much of the Andrew tape the you know, much of the Andrew tape the you know, much of the Andrew tape messaging is around like stop, you know, messaging is around like stop, you know, messaging is around like stop, you know, stop playing stupid video games and stop stop playing stupid video games and stop stop playing stupid video games and stop looking at internet porn. But I sort of looking at internet porn. But I sort of looking at internet porn. But I sort of agree I agree with both of those points. agree I agree with both of those points. agree I agree with both of those points. Do you know what I mean? But actually Do you know what I mean? But actually Do you know what I mean? But actually the thing the thing I disagree with is the thing the thing I disagree with is the thing the thing I disagree with is well the fact that it comes packaged well the fact that it comes packaged well the fact that it comes packaged with a bunch of toxic or or you know with a bunch of toxic or or you know with a bunch of toxic or or you know just degrading and demeaning content. If just degrading and demeaning content. If just degrading and demeaning content. If you separate like I follow Joe Wix like you separate like I follow Joe Wix like you separate like I follow Joe Wix like I'm a subscriber to you know Joe Wix. I'm a subscriber to you know Joe Wix. I'm a subscriber to you know Joe Wix. He's like a fitness he's a fitness guru He's like a fitness he's a fitness guru He's like a fitness he's a fitness guru in the UK like in the UK like in the UK like >> and I subscribe to his app. He doesn't >> and I subscribe to his app. He doesn't >> and I subscribe to his app. He doesn't pay me anything to say that. and um and pay me anything to say that. and um and pay me anything to say that. and um and and and so 5 days a week. Uh I'm not a and and so 5 days a week. Uh I'm not a and and so 5 days a week. Uh I'm not a gym bunny, you know, maybe one day, but gym bunny, you know, maybe one day, but gym bunny, you know, maybe one day, but I've got three kids and a a business and I've got three kids and a a business and I've got three kids and a a business and whatnot. You know, I'm making excuses, whatnot. You know, I'm making excuses, whatnot. You know, I'm making excuses, but so but I've got 20 minutes or half but so but I've got 20 minutes or half but so but I've got 20 minutes or half an hour in the day and I switch the an hour in the day and I switch the an hour in the day and I switch the phone on and and I watch Joe and he phone on and and I watch Joe and he phone on and and I watch Joe and he leads me through a workout. Not live, leads me through a workout. Not live, leads me through a workout. Not live, they're obviously they're recorded and they're obviously they're recorded and they're obviously they're recorded and um and that makes me feel great. So, uh, um and that makes me feel great. So, uh, um and that makes me feel great. So, uh, yeah, all all of that I'm fully on board yeah, all all of that I'm fully on board yeah, all all of that I'm fully on board with, but what I'm not on board with is, with, but what I'm not on board with is, with, but what I'm not on board with is, um, is the horrific content that's being um, is the horrific content that's being um, is the horrific content that's being amplified and the ways in which it's amplified and the ways in which it's amplified and the ways in which it's become so small and they're roleplaying. become so small and they're roleplaying. become so small and they're roleplaying. They're sort of roleplaying as They're sort of roleplaying as They're sort of roleplaying as multi-millionaire oligarchs and it's multi-millionaire oligarchs and it's multi-millionaire oligarchs and it's it's so paper thin, you know, it and it's so paper thin, you know, it and it's so paper thin, you know, it and this idea of chasing money and I'm just this idea of chasing money and I'm just this idea of chasing money and I'm just not a fan of what they call flossing. Is not a fan of what they call flossing. Is not a fan of what they call flossing. Is that is it flo like the idea of like that is it flo like the idea of like that is it flo like the idea of like showing off your like oh showing off your like oh showing off your like oh >> flexing is yeah flexing is the more >> flexing is yeah flexing is the more >> flexing is yeah flexing is the more conventional term. I think flossing is conventional term. I think flossing is conventional term. I think flossing is something I'm not sure what it is. something I'm not sure what it is. something I'm not sure what it is. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> You're familiar with flossing >> You're familiar with flossing >> You're familiar with flossing >> the dance I thought. I don't know. Okay. >> the dance I thought. I don't know. Okay. >> the dance I thought. I don't know. Okay. >> Anyway, okay. So, you agree full >> Anyway, okay. So, you agree full >> Anyway, okay. So, you agree full granddad. But you know that whole thing granddad. But you know that whole thing granddad. But you know that whole thing about oh I'm better than you because I'm about oh I'm better than you because I'm about oh I'm better than you because I'm on a yacht. I find that so cringe and it on a yacht. I find that so cringe and it on a yacht. I find that so cringe and it just rubs I mean I get that like if just rubs I mean I get that like if just rubs I mean I get that like if you're you know I just think that um you're you know I just think that um you're you know I just think that um actually we should be better than that actually we should be better than that actually we should be better than that and I also think that you know the idea and I also think that you know the idea and I also think that you know the idea how can I make a ton of money like dude how can I make a ton of money like dude how can I make a ton of money like dude just follow your passion like don't just follow your passion like don't just follow your passion like don't don't sign up for a seminar on how to be don't sign up for a seminar on how to be don't sign up for a seminar on how to be a millionaire just find something that a millionaire just find something that a millionaire just find something that you're good at well it certainly becomes you're good at well it certainly becomes you're good at well it certainly becomes self- selecting that if you're trying to self- selecting that if you're trying to self- selecting that if you're trying to find quote unquote a good woman who find quote unquote a good woman who find quote unquote a good woman who isn't concerned with your material isn't concerned with your material isn't concerned with your material wealth but what you spend most of your wealth but what you spend most of your wealth but what you spend most of your time doing is flexing your material real time doing is flexing your material real time doing is flexing your material real wealth, you're going to attract the sort wealth, you're going to attract the sort wealth, you're going to attract the sort of woman that is picking up what you're of woman that is picking up what you're of woman that is picking up what you're putting down. And putting down. And putting down. And >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, it just reinforces. I don't know. It's it just reinforces. I don't know. It's it just reinforces. I don't know. It's like every interaction just further like every interaction just further like every interaction just further confirms what your priors were. And confirms what your priors were. And confirms what your priors were. And every time that you step further into every time that you step further into every time that you step further into that world, it just continues to that world, it just continues to that world, it just continues to reinforce it big time. You you I reinforce it big time. You you I reinforce it big time. You you I couldn't have said it better myself. But couldn't have said it better myself. But couldn't have said it better myself. But they're in this village. And you know, they're in this village. And you know, they're in this village. And you know, the other thing is that there's this the other thing is that there's this the other thing is that there's this world in which you think, oh, well, world in which you think, oh, well, world in which you think, oh, well, you're looking for this. I'm looking for you're looking for this. I'm looking for you're looking for this. I'm looking for uh you know what's your body count? Oh, uh you know what's your body count? Oh, uh you know what's your body count? Oh, my body count's uh 150. Um my body count's uh 150. Um my body count's uh 150. Um what's your body count? My body count's what's your body count? My body count's what's your body count? My body count's like 780. I mean, first of all, that's like 780. I mean, first of all, that's like 780. I mean, first of all, that's that whole I find that whole thing that whole I find that whole thing that whole I find that whole thing really cringe and embarrassing. But then really cringe and embarrassing. But then really cringe and embarrassing. But then it's like, but you're you you should it's like, but you're you you should it's like, but you're you you should really marry a woman with like a low a really marry a woman with like a low a really marry a woman with like a low a really low body count, ideally a virgin. really low body count, ideally a virgin. really low body count, ideally a virgin. I mean, that's already really annoying I mean, that's already really annoying I mean, that's already really annoying and objectionable. But then they and objectionable. But then they and objectionable. But then they surround themselves with um only fans surround themselves with um only fans surround themselves with um only fans girls and then and then they're like oh girls and then and then they're like oh girls and then and then they're like oh you know they're like women are just you know they're like women are just you know they're like women are just involved you know they characterize involved you know they characterize involved you know they characterize women as o overly um either mercenary or women as o overly um either mercenary or women as o overly um either mercenary or overly sexually active and then you're overly sexually active and then you're overly sexually active and then you're like but what so but you're in this like but what so but you're in this like but what so but you're in this world you're in this world of adult world you're in this world of adult world you're in this world of adult content creators like you you none of content creators like you you none of content creators like you you none of this is matching if you want to be this is matching if you want to be this is matching if you want to be traditional values head up to Utah or traditional values head up to Utah or traditional values head up to Utah or Idaho or something cuz Miami is not for Idaho or something cuz Miami is not for Idaho or something cuz Miami is not for you. you. you. >> Miami is a hotbed of the opposite of >> Miami is a hotbed of the opposite of >> Miami is a hotbed of the opposite of whatever you're looking for. Yeah, whatever you're looking for. Yeah, whatever you're looking for. Yeah, that's a good that's a good point. Look, that's a good that's a good point. Look, that's a good that's a good point. Look, I think again it's it's really strange I think again it's it's really strange I think again it's it's really strange for me to be thinking about sort of for me to be thinking about sort of for me to be thinking about sort of talking about this from the outside talking about this from the outside talking about this from the outside given that so much of my content crosses given that so much of my content crosses given that so much of my content crosses over. But I think that uh much of the over. But I think that uh much of the over. But I think that uh much of the hunger for what I I'm talking about and hunger for what I I'm talking about and hunger for what I I'm talking about and these guys too is a sort of reaction to these guys too is a sort of reaction to these guys too is a sort of reaction to a felt lack of sympathy and sort of a felt lack of sympathy and sort of a felt lack of sympathy and sort of denial of male pain. And I think if denial of male pain. And I think if denial of male pain. And I think if there were if there was more of an there were if there was more of an there were if there was more of an acceptance of guys are having a tough acceptance of guys are having a tough acceptance of guys are having a tough time of it at the moment through pretty time of it at the moment through pretty time of it at the moment through pretty much any objective metric, I don't think much any objective metric, I don't think much any objective metric, I don't think that any group has fallen further faster that any group has fallen further faster that any group has fallen further faster than men. That's Richard Reeves line than men. That's Richard Reeves line than men. That's Richard Reeves line from the American Institute of Boys and from the American Institute of Boys and from the American Institute of Boys and Men. Uh Men. Uh Men. Uh if it wasn't for the fact that there was if it wasn't for the fact that there was if it wasn't for the fact that there was no there were no places to go, I think no there were no places to go, I think no there were no places to go, I think fewer guys would go to the internet. Um fewer guys would go to the internet. Um fewer guys would go to the internet. Um and that and that and that creates both kind of the cause creates both kind of the cause creates both kind of the cause it creates an opening in the market. it creates an opening in the market. it creates an opening in the market. What's that line about? Um if there is What's that line about? Um if there is What's that line about? Um if there is if there are no role models, if you if there are no role models, if you if there are no role models, if you can't propose any and I think that this can't propose any and I think that this can't propose any and I think that this is a really great question. Uh, in fact, is a really great question. Uh, in fact, is a really great question. Uh, in fact, for you, who do you think are some good for you, who do you think are some good for you, who do you think are some good examples of of sort of genuine positive examples of of sort of genuine positive examples of of sort of genuine positive role models that you would say to your role models that you would say to your role models that you would say to your boys you should boys you should boys you should this would be the sort of man that you this would be the sort of man that you this would be the sort of man that you should emulate? should emulate? should emulate? >> Uh, well, I mean, the answer that gets >> Uh, well, I mean, the answer that gets >> Uh, well, I mean, the answer that gets banded around a lot over here in the UK banded around a lot over here in the UK banded around a lot over here in the UK is Gareth Southgate, like the the former is Gareth Southgate, like the the former is Gareth Southgate, like the the former England manager. Um, I think he embodies England manager. Um, I think he embodies England manager. Um, I think he embodies a certain uh sort of a certain uh sort of a certain uh sort of dignity and and and and sense of fair dignity and and and and sense of fair dignity and and and and sense of fair play with and and and obviously in a in play with and and and obviously in a in play with and and and obviously in a in a in a in a in a pursuit that many boys a in a in a in a pursuit that many boys a in a in a in a pursuit that many boys aspire to excel in many many girls too. aspire to excel in many many girls too. aspire to excel in many many girls too. Um uh Um uh Um uh I mean how long should I come up with a I mean how long should I come up with a I mean how long should I come up with a couple more? You know there's clearly in couple more? You know there's clearly in couple more? You know there's clearly in the pantheon of program makers my field the pantheon of program makers my field the pantheon of program makers my field David Atenburgh you know an adventurer a David Atenburgh you know an adventurer a David Atenburgh you know an adventurer a worldstride and colossus of of worldstride and colossus of of worldstride and colossus of of naturalism a sensitive human being I naturalism a sensitive human being I naturalism a sensitive human being I mean I think it is worth saying in that mean I think it is worth saying in that mean I think it is worth saying in that in that scenario that you've depicted of in that scenario that you've depicted of in that scenario that you've depicted of um kind of male failure if you like you um kind of male failure if you like you um kind of male failure if you like you know so m men desparing like death that know so m men desparing like death that know so m men desparing like death that thing of deaths of despair like suicides thing of deaths of despair like suicides thing of deaths of despair like suicides and drug overdoses we should also like and drug overdoses we should also like and drug overdoses we should also like as a father of boys. I I often remind as a father of boys. I I often remind as a father of boys. I I often remind myself that, you know, the two things myself that, you know, the two things myself that, you know, the two things that matter most to my kids at various that matter most to my kids at various that matter most to my kids at various times have been football, English times have been football, English times have been football, English football, obviously, Premier League football, obviously, Premier League football, obviously, Premier League football and rap, grime and drill. And football and rap, grime and drill. And football and rap, grime and drill. And those are both worlds in which most of those are both worlds in which most of those are both worlds in which most of the preeminent, world famous, highest the preeminent, world famous, highest the preeminent, world famous, highest paid, highest achieving exponents are paid, highest achieving exponents are paid, highest achieving exponents are men. And worlds in which, in fact, men. And worlds in which, in fact, men. And worlds in which, in fact, homosexuality is considered still rather homosexuality is considered still rather homosexuality is considered still rather questionable and taboo. like not many questionable and taboo. like not many questionable and taboo. like not many openly gay footballers, not that many openly gay footballers, not that many openly gay footballers, not that many openly gay rap artists. So there are I I openly gay rap artists. So there are I I openly gay rap artists. So there are I I guess I'm pushing back ever so slightly guess I'm pushing back ever so slightly guess I'm pushing back ever so slightly in the sense that there are still realms in the sense that there are still realms in the sense that there are still realms in which um you know most of the most in which um you know most of the most in which um you know most of the most successful comedians are probably still successful comedians are probably still successful comedians are probably still men. Like there are still realms in men. Like there are still realms in men. Like there are still realms in which uh not just men but a kind of which uh not just men but a kind of which uh not just men but a kind of traditionally masculine presenting man traditionally masculine presenting man traditionally masculine presenting man is still ascendant. is still ascendant. is still ascendant. >> No, I I would agree. I think the >> No, I I would agree. I think the >> No, I I would agree. I think the difference is between where do the guys difference is between where do the guys difference is between where do the guys who raise to the top and where does the who raise to the top and where does the who raise to the top and where does the mean the average man end up sitting mean the average man end up sitting mean the average man end up sitting because the average man is not going to because the average man is not going to because the average man is not going to become a Premier League footballer or become a Premier League footballer or become a Premier League footballer or Ricky Jves uh the average man is Ricky Jves uh the average man is Ricky Jves uh the average man is increasingly slipping away from going to increasingly slipping away from going to increasingly slipping away from going to university increasingly slipping away university increasingly slipping away university increasingly slipping away from getting a highpaying job from getting a highpaying job from getting a highpaying job increasingly more likely to be addicted increasingly more likely to be addicted increasingly more likely to be addicted to drugs or video games or porn or weed to drugs or video games or porn or weed to drugs or video games or porn or weed or whatever. And um you're right. You're or whatever. And um you're right. You're or whatever. And um you're right. You're right to say that men dominate the uh right to say that men dominate the uh right to say that men dominate the uh the extremes, but they dominate the the extremes, but they dominate the the extremes, but they dominate the extremes at both ends. extremes at both ends. extremes at both ends. >> And uh it's a denial of the slipping >> And uh it's a denial of the slipping >> And uh it's a denial of the slipping back. I think that this this is my read back. I think that this this is my read back. I think that this this is my read that if it wasn't for the case that I am that if it wasn't for the case that I am that if it wasn't for the case that I am struggling as a man, well, look at your struggling as a man, well, look at your struggling as a man, well, look at your privilege. Look at all of these CEOs. privilege. Look at all of these CEOs. privilege. Look at all of these CEOs. Look at all of the football players. Look at all of the football players. Look at all of the football players. Look at how well. And he goes, "Yeah, Look at how well. And he goes, "Yeah, Look at how well. And he goes, "Yeah, but but I'm I'm struggling." and and but but I'm I'm struggling." and and but but I'm I'm struggling." and and maybe many of my friends are too and maybe many of my friends are too and maybe many of my friends are too and there doesn't seem to be a sympathetic there doesn't seem to be a sympathetic there doesn't seem to be a sympathetic place to land for that. Yeah, I totally place to land for that. Yeah, I totally place to land for that. Yeah, I totally agree. And I think I'm not a fan of like agree. And I think I'm not a fan of like agree. And I think I'm not a fan of like c the casual disparagement of men. And I c the casual disparagement of men. And I c the casual disparagement of men. And I think very occasionally, maybe more than think very occasionally, maybe more than think very occasionally, maybe more than occasionally that happens like typical occasionally that happens like typical occasionally that happens like typical man or uh you know step back as a man um man or uh you know step back as a man um man or uh you know step back as a man um check your privilege especially as a check your privilege especially as a check your privilege especially as a father to boys like boys uh I I never father to boys like boys uh I I never father to boys like boys uh I I never want to be in a world in which boys have want to be in a world in which boys have want to be in a world in which boys have kind of inherited an original sin by kind of inherited an original sin by kind of inherited an original sin by dent of being boys. You know, it's like, dent of being boys. You know, it's like, dent of being boys. You know, it's like, oh, well, oh, well, oh, well, >> you have to you, you know, as a boy, >> you have to you, you know, as a boy, >> you have to you, you know, as a boy, you've you've somehow your bequest is you've you've somehow your bequest is you've you've somehow your bequest is the fact that men have tended to run the fact that men have tended to run the fact that men have tended to run society for hundreds of years. Like, no, society for hundreds of years. Like, no, society for hundreds of years. Like, no, he's like 5 years old, like seven years he's like 5 years old, like seven years he's like 5 years old, like seven years old. Like, don't put that on him. Do you old. Like, don't put that on him. Do you old. Like, don't put that on him. Do you know what I mean? I know. I was joking know what I mean? I know. I was joking know what I mean? I know. I was joking the other day like I remember growing up the other day like I remember growing up the other day like I remember growing up and they were like, you remember that and they were like, you remember that and they were like, you remember that nursery rhyme? What are little girls nursery rhyme? What are little girls nursery rhyme? What are little girls made of? And it's all like sugar and made of? And it's all like sugar and made of? And it's all like sugar and spice and all things nice and what spice and all things nice and what spice and all things nice and what little boys made of like pigs and puppy little boys made of like pigs and puppy little boys made of like pigs and puppy dogs tails. So I might remember I was dogs tails. So I might remember I was dogs tails. So I might remember I was like 7 years old. Why am I made of puppy like 7 years old. Why am I made of puppy like 7 years old. Why am I made of puppy dogs tales? dogs tales? dogs tales? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? And then that's >> You know what I mean? And then that's >> You know what I mean? And then that's kind of trivial, but I don't like that kind of trivial, but I don't like that kind of trivial, but I don't like that sort of um like frivolous denigrating of sort of um like frivolous denigrating of sort of um like frivolous denigrating of of the of the of of maleness. And then of the of the of of maleness. And then of the of the of of maleness. And then maybe I'm being oversensitive, but I maybe I'm being oversensitive, but I maybe I'm being oversensitive, but I think it kind of it's a little unfair. think it kind of it's a little unfair. think it kind of it's a little unfair. Um so maybe I'm agreeing with that but Um so maybe I'm agreeing with that but Um so maybe I'm agreeing with that but and I think I think the other thing I'd and I think I think the other thing I'd and I think I think the other thing I'd say is if I want to sound really say is if I want to sound really say is if I want to sound really apocalyptic apocalyptic apocalyptic uh we are all both men and women uh we are all both men and women uh we are all both men and women but uh now inhabiting a world in which but uh now inhabiting a world in which but uh now inhabiting a world in which technologies upended so much and technologies upended so much and technologies upended so much and promises to upend even more because God promises to upend even more because God promises to upend even more because God knows when knows when knows when >> you know in a world where I know a lot >> you know in a world where I know a lot >> you know in a world where I know a lot of it's traced back to the decline of of it's traced back to the decline of of it's traced back to the decline of traditional manufacturing also birth traditional manufacturing also birth traditional manufacturing also birth control women entering the workplace uh control women entering the workplace uh control women entering the workplace uh globalization of the economy you know globalization of the economy you know globalization of the economy you know and the fact that a lot of like you know and the fact that a lot of like you know and the fact that a lot of like you know tradition manufacturing jobs moving to tradition manufacturing jobs moving to tradition manufacturing jobs moving to places like China and then what actually places like China and then what actually places like China and then what actually most of the jobs like now most of the jobs like now most of the jobs like now can be done equally well or better by can be done equally well or better by can be done equally well or better by women but in a world where AI is going women but in a world where AI is going women but in a world where AI is going to eliminate most of the jobs uh that to eliminate most of the jobs uh that to eliminate most of the jobs uh that involves sitting in front of a screen as involves sitting in front of a screen as involves sitting in front of a screen as is sometimes promised there's going to is sometimes promised there's going to is sometimes promised there's going to be this whole other ruction like it's be this whole other ruction like it's be this whole other ruction like it's going to play out really interestingly I going to play out really interestingly I going to play out really interestingly I think to say the least in terms of how think to say the least in terms of how think to say the least in terms of how how men and women interrelate like how men and women interrelate like how men and women interrelate like whether you know how sustainable I don't whether you know how sustainable I don't whether you know how sustainable I don't know I know I'm taking this a bit off know I know I'm taking this a bit off know I know I'm taking this a bit off tangent but um I sometimes think like tangent but um I sometimes think like tangent but um I sometimes think like that the that you know male mental that the that you know male mental that the that you know male mental health versus you know and how it health versus you know and how it health versus you know and how it figures in wider society will be figures in wider society will be figures in wider society will be subsumed by some vastly bigger uh social subsumed by some vastly bigger uh social subsumed by some vastly bigger uh social crisis. crisis. crisis. >> Wow. Yeah. I do you notice it is I >> Wow. Yeah. I do you notice it is I >> Wow. Yeah. I do you notice it is I hadn't I hadn't drawn that part of the hadn't I hadn't drawn that part of the hadn't I hadn't drawn that part of the path down the circles of hell. But path down the circles of hell. But path down the circles of hell. But you're probably right that it's all well you're probably right that it's all well you're probably right that it's all well and good talking about the issues that and good talking about the issues that and good talking about the issues that both men and boys and women and girls both men and boys and women and girls both men and boys and women and girls are facing. But when 50% of the are facing. But when 50% of the are facing. But when 50% of the workforce is displaced by AI, I don't workforce is displaced by AI, I don't workforce is displaced by AI, I don't know whether that's going to happen. know whether that's going to happen. know whether that's going to happen. when some percentage of the workforce is when some percentage of the workforce is when some percentage of the workforce is displaced by AI and people don't have displaced by AI and people don't have displaced by AI and people don't have meaning and certain jobs have jobs and meaning and certain jobs have jobs and meaning and certain jobs have jobs and other people don't feel like they've got other people don't feel like they've got other people don't feel like they've got a path forward but it does loop back to a path forward but it does loop back to a path forward but it does loop back to what I said before which is that if what I said before which is that if what I said before which is that if anything if it requires anything it anything if it requires anything it anything if it requires anything it requires sympathy like it need you need requires sympathy like it need you need requires sympathy like it need you need to be sympathetic wow the world changed to be sympathetic wow the world changed to be sympathetic wow the world changed really [ __ ] far really [ __ ] fast really [ __ ] far really [ __ ] fast really [ __ ] far really [ __ ] fast that's hard to navigate that's hard to that's hard to navigate that's hard to that's hard to navigate that's hard to navigate but Because at least at this navigate but Because at least at this navigate but Because at least at this iteration of it, the men were part of a iteration of it, the men were part of a iteration of it, the men were part of a previously previously previously beneficial group. They were part of one beneficial group. They were part of one beneficial group. They were part of one that seemed to be afforded privileges in that seemed to be afforded privileges in that seemed to be afforded privileges in certain domains. Not the privileges to certain domains. Not the privileges to certain domains. Not the privileges to go to war and die and etc. But, you go to war and die and etc. But, you go to war and die and etc. But, you know, know, know, opportunities that weren't afforded to opportunities that weren't afforded to opportunities that weren't afforded to the women. It it felt and I think it the women. It it felt and I think it the women. It it felt and I think it feels to a lot of young men now like feels to a lot of young men now like feels to a lot of young men now like they are being made to pay for the sins they are being made to pay for the sins they are being made to pay for the sins of the advantages that their fathers and of the advantages that their fathers and of the advantages that their fathers and grandfathers had. Like they they're grandfathers had. Like they they're grandfathers had. Like they they're they're accused of being part of a they're accused of being part of a they're accused of being part of a patriarchy that they no longer feel a patriarchy that they no longer feel a patriarchy that they no longer feel a member of. Um you when they're looking member of. Um you when they're looking member of. Um you when they're looking around and saying, "Well, where where is around and saying, "Well, where where is around and saying, "Well, where where is my privilege?" And I think that it ties my privilege?" And I think that it ties my privilege?" And I think that it ties in with you talk to these two guys and in with you talk to these two guys and in with you talk to these two guys and there's a line that they say in life as there's a line that they say in life as there's a line that they say in life as a man, you're born without value. a man, you're born without value. a man, you're born without value. And I think what they mean with that is And I think what they mean with that is And I think what they mean with that is it feels to me like there is a kind of it feels to me like there is a kind of it feels to me like there is a kind of love and belonging and acceptance and love and belonging and acceptance and love and belonging and acceptance and pedestalization that's given to women pedestalization that's given to women pedestalization that's given to women and girls that I haven't felt has been and girls that I haven't felt has been and girls that I haven't felt has been afforded to me. I haven't felt as afforded to me. I haven't felt as afforded to me. I haven't felt as special. I haven't felt as cared for special. I haven't felt as cared for special. I haven't felt as cared for unless I do something, unless I make unless I do something, unless I make unless I do something, unless I make myself big and impressive. And again myself big and impressive. And again myself big and impressive. And again with that sympathy to go, [ __ ] yeah, with that sympathy to go, [ __ ] yeah, with that sympathy to go, [ __ ] yeah, you know, previously it probably there you know, previously it probably there you know, previously it probably there would have been a pretty linear would have been a pretty linear would have been a pretty linear progression for you to have found a progression for you to have found a progression for you to have found a place in society and done these things place in society and done these things place in society and done these things and cost of living and and and uncertain and cost of living and and and uncertain and cost of living and and and uncertain turbulent times and all of these turbulent times and all of these turbulent times and all of these different stimulus that can cause you to different stimulus that can cause you to different stimulus that can cause you to be addicted. be addicted. be addicted. And if you believe in life as a man And if you believe in life as a man And if you believe in life as a man you're born without value, that that you're born without value, that that you're born without value, that that probably requires some sympathy, too. probably requires some sympathy, too. probably requires some sympathy, too. Yeah. You're talking about Matty and Yeah. You're talking about Matty and Yeah. You're talking about Matty and Chris who come up to Justin Waller, Chris who come up to Justin Waller, Chris who come up to Justin Waller, Justin Waller, the business guru, and Justin Waller, the business guru, and Justin Waller, the business guru, and we're tra we're just walking around the we're tra we're just walking around the we're tra we're just walking around the streets of Miami, and they you can see streets of Miami, and they you can see streets of Miami, and they you can see they're in awe of Justin Waller, and they're in awe of Justin Waller, and they're in awe of Justin Waller, and they're like, "You're our biggest uh they're like, "You're our biggest uh they're like, "You're our biggest uh role model, and we, you know, we aspire role model, and we, you know, we aspire role model, and we, you know, we aspire to be like you." And they talk about, to be like you." And they talk about, to be like you." And they talk about, yeah, they feel they've been born yeah, they feel they've been born yeah, they feel they've been born without value, which I think is a red without value, which I think is a red without value, which I think is a red pill talking point. Um just to say in pill talking point. Um just to say in pill talking point. Um just to say in passing like there's a there's a book I passing like there's a there's a book I passing like there's a there's a book I haven't read all of it but I've read in haven't read all of it but I've read in haven't read all of it but I've read in it by Susan Fudi a feminist writer it by Susan Fudi a feminist writer it by Susan Fudi a feminist writer published in the late '9s I think called published in the late '9s I think called published in the late '9s I think called stiff that talks about the decline of stiff that talks about the decline of stiff that talks about the decline of manufacturing and the struggle for male manufacturing and the struggle for male manufacturing and the struggle for male identity in a kind of postmanufacturing identity in a kind of postmanufacturing identity in a kind of postmanufacturing era but um I would also say though that era but um I would also say though that era but um I would also say though that you know in what sense he says like well you know in what sense he says like well you know in what sense he says like well I say what do you mean you be born I say what do you mean you be born I say what do you mean you be born without value and then Justin Wallace without value and then Justin Wallace without value and then Justin Wallace says like you know if you're a beautiful says like you know if you're a beautiful says like you know if you're a beautiful woman you get invited onto a yacht who's woman you get invited onto a yacht who's woman you get invited onto a yacht who's going to invite these guys onto a yacht going to invite these guys onto a yacht going to invite these guys onto a yacht It's kind of a funny moment. It wasn't It's kind of a funny moment. It wasn't It's kind of a funny moment. It wasn't intended as such. Uh but actually intended as such. Uh but actually intended as such. Uh but actually though, then then later on I was like, though, then then later on I was like, though, then then later on I was like, "Yeah, but what if you're not a "Yeah, but what if you're not a "Yeah, but what if you're not a beautiful woman? What if you're just a beautiful woman? What if you're just a beautiful woman? What if you're just a normal looking woman?" Like then you normal looking woman?" Like then you normal looking woman?" Like then you don't get invited onto a yacht. And also don't get invited onto a yacht. And also don't get invited onto a yacht. And also it's a kind of Instagram um it's kind of it's a kind of Instagram um it's kind of it's a kind of Instagram um it's kind of Instagram Instagram Instagram paradigm paradigm paradigm currency currency currency >> for value, right? It's like you sort of >> for value, right? It's like you sort of >> for value, right? It's like you sort of say like if I put my picture on say like if I put my picture on say like if I put my picture on Instagram, no one's going to click on Instagram, no one's going to click on Instagram, no one's going to click on that, but if you're a beautiful woman, that, but if you're a beautiful woman, that, but if you're a beautiful woman, they'll click on that. Like dude like they'll click on that. Like dude like they'll click on that. Like dude like you have the whatever value you have you have the whatever value you have you have the whatever value you have from studying hard or becoming a from studying hard or becoming a from studying hard or becoming a professional or apprenticing in a in professional or apprenticing in a in professional or apprenticing in a in some kind of occupation. You're like some kind of occupation. You're like some kind of occupation. You're like he's just talking about the value that a he's just talking about the value that a he's just talking about the value that a certain kind of Instagram beautiful certain kind of Instagram beautiful certain kind of Instagram beautiful woman will acrue. But that's very that's woman will acrue. But that's very that's woman will acrue. But that's very that's a very narrow uh lens through which to a very narrow uh lens through which to a very narrow uh lens through which to view life. Well, it's it's no view life. Well, it's it's no view life. Well, it's it's no coincidence that much of this has sort coincidence that much of this has sort coincidence that much of this has sort of been born out of Miami and Vegas of been born out of Miami and Vegas of been born out of Miami and Vegas because it's the caricature of that because it's the caricature of that because it's the caricature of that culture. It it isn't it is kind of culture. It it isn't it is kind of culture. It it isn't it is kind of skinde at least in terms of what's skinde at least in terms of what's skinde at least in terms of what's supposed to be traded around. supposed to be traded around. supposed to be traded around. >> Yeah. It's kind of it's it's kind like >> Yeah. It's kind of it's it's kind like >> Yeah. It's kind of it's it's kind like first you're like, "Oh, I guess." And first you're like, "Oh, I guess." And first you're like, "Oh, I guess." And then you're like, "Well, what Mary then you're like, "Well, what Mary then you're like, "Well, what Mary Cury?" Like, did what was did she uh do Cury?" Like, did what was did she uh do Cury?" Like, did what was did she uh do her Nobel Prize winning scientific work her Nobel Prize winning scientific work her Nobel Prize winning scientific work based on having a big Instagram based on having a big Instagram based on having a big Instagram following? like does she like oh she's following? like does she like oh she's following? like does she like oh she's hot Mary Cury's really hot like you know hot Mary Cury's really hot like you know hot Mary Cury's really hot like you know that that is such a weird kind of way of that that is such a weird kind of way of that that is such a weird kind of way of understanding uh how women achieve understanding uh how women achieve understanding uh how women achieve success in general even think about who success in general even think about who success in general even think about who you want to spend time with you know you want to spend time with you know you want to spend time with you know when I think about when I think about when I think about when I think about when I think about when I think about the sort of people that I want to hang the sort of people that I want to hang the sort of people that I want to hang out with at dinner on a nighttime some out with at dinner on a nighttime some out with at dinner on a nighttime some of my friends are of my friends are of my friends are horrendous in the way that they present horrendous in the way that they present horrendous in the way that they present themselves they are not fashionable that themselves they are not fashionable that themselves they are not fashionable that but they're like smart or thoughtful or but they're like smart or thoughtful or but they're like smart or thoughtful or really interesting or really interested. really interesting or really interested. really interesting or really interested. And every time that I walk into a room, And every time that I walk into a room, And every time that I walk into a room, I just feel like I'm lit up to find out I just feel like I'm lit up to find out I just feel like I'm lit up to find out what they've been working on or what what they've been working on or what what they've been working on or what they've been thinking about what's been they've been thinking about what's been they've been thinking about what's been going on in their life. They're really going on in their life. They're really going on in their life. They're really patient. They're super patient and patient. They're super patient and patient. They're super patient and they're able to sort of sit with with they're able to sort of sit with with they're able to sort of sit with with silence and awkward or they hold space silence and awkward or they hold space silence and awkward or they hold space for someone who's going through a good for someone who's going through a good for someone who's going through a good time or a tough time or whatever. You're time or a tough time or whatever. You're time or a tough time or whatever. You're like, all of those things are impossible like, all of those things are impossible like, all of those things are impossible to flex online. All of those things are. to flex online. All of those things are. to flex online. All of those things are. And yet, when I look at when I look at And yet, when I look at when I look at And yet, when I look at when I look at the people that I spend my most time the people that I spend my most time the people that I spend my most time with. I'm surrounded by people who are with. I'm surrounded by people who are with. I'm surrounded by people who are some of them most many of them are some of them most many of them are some of them most many of them are successful in the real world too. But successful in the real world too. But successful in the real world too. But that's as a byproduct of being an that's as a byproduct of being an that's as a byproduct of being an awesome person as opposed to doing this. awesome person as opposed to doing this. awesome person as opposed to doing this. It's almost like a if you took it to the It's almost like a if you took it to the It's almost like a if you took it to the extreme, it's almost like a extreme, it's almost like a extreme, it's almost like a self-bimication self-bimication self-bimication of the most extreme versions of of the most extreme versions of of the most extreme versions of masculinity. Louise Perry calls it a masculinity. Louise Perry calls it a masculinity. Louise Perry calls it a maleto-male transsexual uh uh procedure maleto-male transsexual uh uh procedure maleto-male transsexual uh uh procedure where you sort of parody the most where you sort of parody the most where you sort of parody the most masculine traits that you can. I mean, masculine traits that you can. I mean, masculine traits that you can. I mean, you could say that for clvicular that it you could say that for clvicular that it you could say that for clvicular that it really is almost like a male-to-male really is almost like a male-to-male really is almost like a male-to-male transsexual treatment where you start transsexual treatment where you start transsexual treatment where you start off being a man and make yourself as off being a man and make yourself as off being a man and make yourself as much of a man as you can be through much of a man as you can be through much of a man as you can be through cosmetic surgery and beautifification cosmetic surgery and beautifification cosmetic surgery and beautifification and enhancement. Big time. I mean, I and enhancement. Big time. I mean, I and enhancement. Big time. I mean, I like that. I mean the other part of it like that. I mean the other part of it like that. I mean the other part of it is and it's reminded me of the game as is and it's reminded me of the game as is and it's reminded me of the game as well this idea that oh you can win at well this idea that oh you can win at well this idea that oh you can win at life by using these hacks and then you life by using these hacks and then you life by using these hacks and then you realize actually if you've been around realize actually if you've been around realize actually if you've been around those guys who are using sort of life those guys who are using sort of life those guys who are using sort of life hacks like that um it's quite a weird hacks like that um it's quite a weird hacks like that um it's quite a weird experience. You don't feel good experience. You don't feel good experience. You don't feel good afterwards. you know, that that feeling afterwards. you know, that that feeling afterwards. you know, that that feeling of whether it's being negged or uh of whether it's being negged or uh of whether it's being negged or uh someone who's sort of deploying certain someone who's sort of deploying certain someone who's sort of deploying certain forms of um whether it's neural forms of um whether it's neural forms of um whether it's neural linguistic programming, you know, and linguistic programming, you know, and linguistic programming, you know, and then you think like something a little then you think like something a little then you think like something a little off like there's something a little off off like there's something a little off off like there's something a little off about this encounter like or if you're about this encounter like or if you're about this encounter like or if you're in a situation where you'd you'd slept in a situation where you'd you'd slept in a situation where you'd you'd slept with someone like that, that's that with someone like that, that's that with someone like that, that's that that's got to that's got to feel that's got to that's got to feel that's got to that's got to feel afterwards quite dark. I would have afterwards quite dark. I would have afterwards quite dark. I would have thought like it feels like a very thought like it feels like a very thought like it feels like a very like a quite a limited strategy for like a quite a limited strategy for like a quite a limited strategy for succeeding at life. You're performing succeeding at life. You're performing succeeding at life. You're performing masculinity. You're not embodying it. masculinity. You're not embodying it. masculinity. You're not embodying it. It's you're reverse engineering what It's you're reverse engineering what It's you're reverse engineering what would a man who is this sort of a man do would a man who is this sort of a man do would a man who is this sort of a man do and rather than make myself into that and rather than make myself into that and rather than make myself into that man, I'll just pantomime his actions. man, I'll just pantomime his actions. man, I'll just pantomime his actions. And you know, this was the problem. And you know, this was the problem. And you know, this was the problem. Don't forget, I'm sure that you did this Don't forget, I'm sure that you did this Don't forget, I'm sure that you did this as part of your research, but the red as part of your research, but the red as part of your research, but the red pill was born out of the PUA hate pill was born out of the PUA hate pill was born out of the PUA hate >> group, right? Like that was the >> group, right? Like that was the >> group, right? Like that was the beginning of both red pill and black beginning of both red pill and black beginning of both red pill and black pill was PUA hate. And the reason that pill was PUA hate. And the reason that pill was PUA hate. And the reason that these guys had PUA hate was that they these guys had PUA hate was that they these guys had PUA hate was that they had gone through the pipeline of pickup had gone through the pipeline of pickup had gone through the pipeline of pickup artistry and either found themselves artistry and either found themselves artistry and either found themselves unsuccessful in that I am such a genetic unsuccessful in that I am such a genetic unsuccessful in that I am such a genetic dead end that it doesn't work at all or dead end that it doesn't work at all or dead end that it doesn't work at all or and I think that this is way more common and I think that this is way more common and I think that this is way more common because I I grew up kind of tangential because I I grew up kind of tangential because I I grew up kind of tangential to the era of the game. guys realized to the era of the game. guys realized to the era of the game. guys realized that they could be successful with women that they could be successful with women that they could be successful with women by following neural linguistic by following neural linguistic by following neural linguistic programming and you know uh manipulating programming and you know uh manipulating programming and you know uh manipulating social mores to be able to get a woman social mores to be able to get a woman social mores to be able to get a woman into bed. But what they found was look into bed. But what they found was look into bed. But what they found was look at how much of a different person I have at how much of a different person I have at how much of a different person I have to contort myself into in order to to contort myself into in order to to contort myself into in order to achieve this. This further reinforces my achieve this. This further reinforces my achieve this. This further reinforces my own perspective that I am unlovable as I own perspective that I am unlovable as I own perspective that I am unlovable as I am, that I need to perform in order to am, that I need to perform in order to am, that I need to perform in order to be able to be cared for, that I am not be able to be cared for, that I am not be able to be cared for, that I am not enough, and I have to do this strange, enough, and I have to do this strange, enough, and I have to do this strange, you know, like Cinderella and the you know, like Cinderella and the you know, like Cinderella and the pumpkin thing in a desperate attempt to pumpkin thing in a desperate attempt to pumpkin thing in a desperate attempt to make me sufficiently likable to bed. And make me sufficiently likable to bed. And make me sufficiently likable to bed. And then I wake up the next day and realize then I wake up the next day and realize then I wake up the next day and realize I did it successfully. But look at the I did it successfully. But look at the I did it successfully. But look at the contrast between who I am and who I need contrast between who I am and who I need contrast between who I am and who I need to be in order to get love from a woman to be in order to get love from a woman to be in order to get love from a woman and therefore love from the world and and therefore love from the world and and therefore love from the world and love from society and be able to belong. love from society and be able to belong. love from society and be able to belong. And uh yeah, you're right. If if you and And uh yeah, you're right. If if you and And uh yeah, you're right. If if you and I think we're going to see this I think we're going to see this I think we're going to see this increasingly and you saw this with Neil increasingly and you saw this with Neil increasingly and you saw this with Neil Strauss. I had Neil on the show twoish Strauss. I had Neil on the show twoish Strauss. I had Neil on the show twoish years ago here in Austin and Neil has years ago here in Austin and Neil has years ago here in Austin and Neil has now gone through almost a full horseshoe now gone through almost a full horseshoe now gone through almost a full horseshoe 180 to be 180 to be 180 to be completely completely completely family pill or he's got no desire to be family pill or he's got no desire to be family pill or he's got no desire to be sort of in that world anymore. He's sort of in that world anymore. He's sort of in that world anymore. He's writing books with Rick Rubin about writing books with Rick Rubin about writing books with Rick Rubin about creativity. He's co-parenting with his creativity. He's co-parenting with his creativity. He's co-parenting with his ex-wife, which I'd never I'd never heard ex-wife, which I'd never I'd never heard ex-wife, which I'd never I'd never heard of someone doing this, that he he says of someone doing this, that he he says of someone doing this, that he he says that they're a bad couple, but great that they're a bad couple, but great that they're a bad couple, but great parents. So, they decided to after their parents. So, they decided to after their parents. So, they decided to after their divorce have another child that they divorce have another child that they divorce have another child that they would co-parent together. And I mean, would co-parent together. And I mean, would co-parent together. And I mean, that is, that is, that is, >> wow, that's interesting. >> wow, that's interesting. >> wow, that's interesting. >> Isn't that fascinating? But think of >> Isn't that fascinating? But think of >> Isn't that fascinating? But think of that's the guy that wrote the game. And that's the guy that wrote the game. And that's the guy that wrote the game. And I think that when when guys that are I think that when when guys that are I think that when when guys that are socially awkward or feel like they've socially awkward or feel like they've socially awkward or feel like they've got a chip on their shoulder or they got a chip on their shoulder or they got a chip on their shoulder or they weren't recognized in the past or weren't recognized in the past or weren't recognized in the past or they've got some daddy issues or some they've got some daddy issues or some they've got some daddy issues or some trauma that is either conscious or trauma that is either conscious or trauma that is either conscious or subconscious or unconscious, subconscious or unconscious, subconscious or unconscious, then they achieve everything that they then they achieve everything that they then they achieve everything that they thought the world was going to give them thought the world was going to give them thought the world was going to give them that would fix the void inside. They've that would fix the void inside. They've that would fix the void inside. They've done it. They realize the void's still done it. They realize the void's still done it. They realize the void's still there and they go, "Oh [ __ ] that now there and they go, "Oh [ __ ] that now there and they go, "Oh [ __ ] that now I'm really fucked." Because when I was I'm really fucked." Because when I was I'm really fucked." Because when I was poor and miserable, I had hope. But when poor and miserable, I had hope. But when poor and miserable, I had hope. But when I was rich and miserable, I was I was rich and miserable, I was I was rich and miserable, I was despondent. The thing that I thought was despondent. The thing that I thought was despondent. The thing that I thought was going to fill that void, I've now going to fill that void, I've now going to fill that void, I've now gotten, the void's still there. gotten, the void's still there. gotten, the void's still there. And I guess there's two two paths after And I guess there's two two paths after And I guess there's two two paths after that. One is I need to look deeper. It's that. One is I need to look deeper. It's that. One is I need to look deeper. It's evident that my gold medalist syndrome evident that my gold medalist syndrome evident that my gold medalist syndrome indicates that the gold medal wasn't the indicates that the gold medal wasn't the indicates that the gold medal wasn't the answer. The other path is ah it was two answer. The other path is ah it was two answer. The other path is ah it was two gold medals or three or four or five. gold medals or three or four or five. gold medals or three or four or five. That's the solution. I just need more. That's the solution. I just need more. That's the solution. I just need more. The dose wasn't high enough. Not that The dose wasn't high enough. Not that The dose wasn't high enough. Not that the medicine was the wrong type. Chris, the medicine was the wrong type. Chris, the medicine was the wrong type. Chris, I need have I going to have to make a I need have I going to have to make a I need have I going to have to make a move in a second. Um, it being I've got move in a second. Um, it being I've got move in a second. Um, it being I've got a child to pick up, but uh I've really a child to pick up, but uh I've really a child to pick up, but uh I've really enjoyed talking to you, man. It's been I enjoyed talking to you, man. It's been I enjoyed talking to you, man. It's been I hope you I hope you're happy with the hope you I hope you're happy with the hope you I hope you're happy with the chat. I am very much indeed. Where chat. I am very much indeed. Where chat. I am very much indeed. Where should people go to keep up to date with should people go to keep up to date with should people go to keep up to date with everything? Oh, Netflix. People can go everything? Oh, Netflix. People can go everything? Oh, Netflix. People can go and watch the documentary on Netflix. and watch the documentary on Netflix. and watch the documentary on Netflix. >> We've got uh we've got our film dropping >> We've got uh we've got our film dropping >> We've got uh we've got our film dropping on uh well, it's already out on Netflix on uh well, it's already out on Netflix on uh well, it's already out on Netflix worldwide. I've got a podcast I do for worldwide. I've got a podcast I do for worldwide. I've got a podcast I do for Spotify and um I make documentaries with Spotify and um I make documentaries with Spotify and um I make documentaries with through my company Mind House and um through my company Mind House and um through my company Mind House and um other stuff swirling around wherever you other stuff swirling around wherever you other stuff swirling around wherever you happen to be watching this. If you're in happen to be watching this. If you're in happen to be watching this. If you're in the UK, it's a lot of stuff on i Player. the UK, it's a lot of stuff on i Player. the UK, it's a lot of stuff on i Player. In the US, there's something called BBC In the US, there's something called BBC In the US, there's something called BBC Player I think which no one subscribes Player I think which no one subscribes Player I think which no one subscribes to and then some stuff pirated content to and then some stuff pirated content to and then some stuff pirated content on YouTube which is fine. Go and check on YouTube which is fine. Go and check on YouTube which is fine. Go and check that out. that out. that out. >> Beautiful. >> Beautiful. >> Beautiful. >> Louie, I appreciate you man. I'm looking >> Louie, I appreciate you man. I'm looking >> Louie, I appreciate you man. I'm looking forward to seeing what you do. forward to seeing what you do. forward to seeing what you do. >> Listings. All right. Thank you, Chris. >> Listings. All right. Thank you, Chris. >> Listings. All right. Thank you, Chris. I'm really glad we could hook this up. I'm really glad we could hook this up. I'm really glad we could hook this up. It It was It I would It would have been It It was It I would It would have been It It was It I would It would have been even better in person, but um we made it even better in person, but um we made it even better in person, but um we made it work. That's the important thing. It's a work. That's the important thing. It's a work. That's the important thing. It's a privilege to be on. Um thank you for privilege to be on. Um thank you for privilege to be on. Um thank you for spending the time and for for a great spending the time and for for a great spending the time and for for a great conversation. Appreciate you. Thank you, conversation. Appreciate you. Thank you, conversation. Appreciate you. Thank you, man. Congratulations. You made it to the man. Congratulations. You made it to the man. Congratulations. You made it to the end of an episode. Your brain has not end of an episode. Your brain has not end of an episode. Your brain has not been completely destroyed by the been completely destroyed by the been completely destroyed by the internet just yet. Here's another one internet just yet. Here's another one internet just yet. Here's another one that you should watch. that you should watch. that you should watch. Go on.