Intergenerational Space Travel | This American Life | Episode 897

Key Takeaway

When a recurring conflict with someone you love feels like a battle of wills, give them a small, real area of control today. Myra Flynn shifted her daughter’s hair routine by letting her manage one section herself, then helped where needed. Instead of forcing endurance or abandoning the task, try shared ownership: ask what part they want to handle, protect that choice, and use the result to learn what support actually helps.

Episode Overview

This episode explores “intergenerational space travel”: the misunderstandings, inherited patterns, and unexpected bridges between people separated by age and experience. Stories follow NPR staff decoding teenagers’ improvised online community, a mother and daughter revisiting a painful wedding and marriage, a former movie-theater employee returning to his teenage dream job, and a parent reshaping a fraught hair-care routine with her daughter.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Intergenerational Space Travel | This American Life | Episode 897 from This American Life. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

A quick warning, there are curse words that are unbeeded in today's episode of the show. If you prefer a beeped version, you can find that at our website, thisamericanlife.org. Dave Blanchard runs the public radio show Wildcard. And one of the less exciting and in fact rather tedious parts of his job is that he has to keep an eye on the comments that people post about the show online. And one day last fall on Spotify, he saw all this activity about this episode they did with the writer Elizabeth Gilbert.

And Dave thought, "Oh, her book was controversial. They must have struck a nerve this episode." And then he looked at the comments and it was just like gibberish. Like I just there was there's a bunch of new comments, but I couldn't make heads or tail of of any of them. They're just kind of these like clipped weird incoherent postings that I was just like it it screamed bots just cuz like anytime that I see just kind of gibberish and like a comment on the internet I assume it's a bot.

But the fact that there was all from different accounts seemed very weird and the fact that they also maybe seemed to be like interacting in some way also seemed weird and not like typical bot behavior. C can I ask you to read some of those comments? So yeah, I've got some from a later batch. We've got some where it's like, you know, someone says, "Am two people have hearted that." Someone says, "Gilgamesh quit and I'm crying." Um, last Friday I broke up with my GF. Your cats are so cute.

You're gorgeous in that dress. OML, pink heart. So, okay. Bots, he thought some new fangled kind of bots that respond to each other somehow. He deleted the posts and I I went back to the Spotify comments again and there was a new comment and it said uh so it deleted my com and that felt not body that felt very strange that a bot would be able to recognize that the thread got deleted and post it letting people know that it had been deleted. And then there were other responses to that.

So, someone says uh username cotton/amity parenthesis I'm back [ __ ] uh commented weird. Uh Aubrey commented that's weirds two s's. This is really not looking like any bot behavior he'd ever seen. So he goes to NR Slack channels posts some screenshots describes what these comments are and one of the higherups Matild suggests reporting it to Spotify which Dave does. And then somebody younger at NPR reads a thread. They're 10 years younger than Dave, Gen Z, not millennial, named Hannah Chin. And I click into the screenshots and almost immediately I'm like, oh, my conclusion is really, really different than Dave's and Matild's.

Um, because I'm like, these are kids. And I think that part of that is because I was a middle schooler on the internet, right? Like posting on forums and stuff. And so I look at their display names. Their display names are like Ella with like five emojis and they're like the special character emojis. They're like the ones that you have to like go onto the internet and type your name into like a special text generator and then it comes out as a special character and then you have to like special paste it into your profile.

The profile pictures are all cartoon characters Hannah's never seen before. And then there's the way that they're commenting back and forth with each other. Short little phrases. I'm sorry, that's weird. Lots of highs, lots of extra exclamation points. Hannah recognized it. They grew up in a conservative home, was homeschooled, with limited access to social media. And so I was a kid who used weird parts of the internet, not as they were originally designed to talk to my friends. I talked back and forth with my friends on Google Docs.

Um, and we would type things and then delete them and then like type things and then like make them invisible by like making the text white on the white background. So, I think this is familiar behavior to me. So, Hannah writes out a comment to post on Slack, shows it to their housemate for posting cuz they're worried about coming off maybe too harsh with these much higher ranking older NPR bosses who Hannah had never met in person. And I say, "Okay, maybe I'm wrong, but I think these are just kids hanging out and we shouldn't report them as bots." My guess is that they're just kind of using Spotify comment threads as their group chat.

Maybe because other apps on their phones are blocked. Who knows? And they happen to have chosen a wild card episode to do it. Lol. Like these are middle schoolers. Middle schoolers specifically, not high schoolers. Yeah. These are people who are new to chatting with each other on the internet and in real life. Like they're kids who are excited to talk to other people on the internet. The goal is just to connect with people. Like you have nothing to talk about. You you don't know each other very well.

You're just like seeing each other and acknowledging each other presence in the chat. Dave reads Hannah's Slack message and well he is not convinced. He posts, "That's an interesting theory." Yeah, that's an interesting theory. There's an exclamation point at the end of it at least to give it that much credit. Yes. And I like admittedly I was I was still like really like again this is wild card with Rachel Martin on NPR like our not our target demo to have a bunch of like middle schoolers in our comment section.

It just felt so completely implausible that these people would have found like this particular episode as their place to chat. Dave is like, "That's an interesting theory." And I at this point, sorry Dave, I don't know you in real life. I'm like a little bit annoyed because I'm like I know that I said maybe I'm wrong, but I was so sure that I was right. And it does more digging, which makes them even more convinced than before. What the kids seem to be doing was one kid would create a playlist on Spotify with a name like Let's Chat Here, and inside that playlist would be one podcast episode.

And you know how you can see other people's playlists on Spotify? If they make them public, other kids would see that playlist. They'd see the episode and then they would go to the podcast episode and start posting in the comments. And I got back on Slack and pointed out that the kids were using a playlist that was named New Chat. The kids had also posted a Google form with some kind of quiz on it and said, "Fill this out. Only cool people can fill this out." Bots don't really spam Google forms in my experience, whereas Gen Alpha might use them in the same way that my generation would use like you quiz or the Buzzfeed make your own personality quiz feature.

And reading that was the turning point for Dave when they were like this is something that I did like that's what unlocked it. I think it was it was so implausible to me and then when Hannah was like no I did this I was like oh wow like that I guess it makes sense. And then and then it was like I could like go back and look at it again and it was like I had like the lens on to see it and I was like, "Oh my god, they are kids." Like like in retrospect, it looks so obvious.

So, how exactly did those commenters end up in the comment section of an NPR podcast? What exactly happened here? Well, we reached out to a bunch of commenters. Only one of them agreed to talk to us. As suspected, she is not a bot. She's a 14-year-old girl who talked to me from the car with her parents permission and her dad at the wheel. Her name is Ella. When I asked her to describe herself, she said this. Uh, I would say that I'm definitely a bit hard to get to know cuz I'm I don't know a lot about myself yet, but I think if you do get to know me, you'll find out I'm like a pretty cool person.

Ella says, "This all started with a video podcast that played Tik Tok videos." Ella thinks a kid started it. The videos seem to be chosen specifically for kids who weren't allowed on Tik Tok, but were allowed on Spotify. That was Ella. She's allowed on Spotify, but on no social media. And she and the other kids would watch this girl's podcast on Spotify and then chat in the comments of the podcast. And her podcast ended up getting banned. and we wanted talking to each other. So people would like make playlists.

She described exactly the system that Hannah figured out. Kids would name their playlist chat here or something like that and then there would be some podcast and everybody would go to that podcast and talk in the comments. She says it was maybe 20 kids in the core group. Lots of theater kids. She says mostly girls, most of them with strict parents who didn't let them on regular social media. And can I ask why did you guys pick NPR shows to be the ones where you went to in the comments?

Um, I think we just like looked for podcasts that didn't have many comments. I see. So you picked NPR because it didn't seem very popular. Yeah. So that we wouldn't like get caught up in other people's comments. I tell you buddy, I do a public radio show and and that hurts a little to hear it. Sorry. That's okay. Are your parents NPR listeners? Uh, yeah. My mom is. She listens to podcasts all the time. Was any of this that like your parents were NPR listeners and this felt like this is the perfect cover.

Like if they catch you doing this, you can be like, "Look, I'm just doing this for an NPR show." Yeah. Is that true? Did you think about that? Yeah, a little bit. It's funny. There was this guy uh named Dave who works for NPR and he's in his 30s and he saw the comments that you guys were doing and they made no sense to him at all. He really had no idea what they were and he thought you guys were all bots. Yeah, some of them were really young, like 11 years old and stuff.

So, some of them definitely were a little bit not good at talking English that well. or using slain. I got to say, I thought there was a very generous answer. Dave thought they were bots and she was like, "Yeah, well, some of us kind of talk like bots." Ella told me that she's sure someday she'll be clueless like Dave is now. Which of course isn't much comfort of your Dave. Dave says that once he understood that it was kids writing all those comments, it didn't feel great.

One, I felt bad for having reported them. Like I definitely felt guilty. Um, and two, old. I just felt like very old, very dumb, very out of touch. I literally needed Hannah to be my generational translator. It was just like it was such a clarifying like realization of of of my age and obsolescence. What a day program. People from one generation trying to cross the vast, vast distance that divides the young and the old with a message that they hope will get heard by the people on the other side.

We have stories today of a wedding toast and of childhood hair care and of the greatest job in the world as seen from the eyes of a teenager. Anyway, intergenerational space travel this hour from WBZ Chicago. It's this American life. I'm Era Glass. Climb aboard this rocket with us if you dare and stay with us. It's this American life act one the wedding zinger. So let's start today with a story that is both intergenerational space and time travel. When Courtney mom was 18, her mom got remarried.

Courtney despised the guy, did not want the marriage to go through. But she was her mom's maid of honor. She gave a speech at her mother's request. And the speech she gave at 18 years old, her mom never forgave her for it. Brought it up for years after. And then recently, after three tumultuous decades, her mom's relationship with this man fell apart. For Courtney, this was the opening, the chance to finally ask her mom across the divide between them about this marriage she never understood, and to try one more time to lay this infamous wedding speech to rest.

Here's Courtney. At 18, I thought I was kind of hot [ __ ] a writer in the making, a diehard feminist, a student capable of bringing freedom to Tibet. Here's how my mom, Linda, saw me. What I remember is at that point in your life, you were extremely selfish and you didn't want anybody else in my life. You asked me not to even date until after you went off to college and certainly not even think of getting married before that. Is that true? I'm sure it's true.

The thing is, I loved being with my mother. Everybody did. I didn't want to share her. She was fun, beautiful, stylish, like a woman out of Night Rider. She had a Harley-Davidson and a boating license. We were always on adventures. In the summer, I loved to watch her ste our little Boston Wher wearing these massive dangly earrings that sparkled in the sun. It was a fairy tale existence, a childhood of privilege, growing up like this in Greenwich, Connecticut with parents I adored. But when I was eight and my brother Brennan was three, my father asked my mom for a divorce.

My mother was devastated. But like I said, she was a hot item. So the suitors came a call-in. I can't say I was a fan. One laughed like a hyena. One was so heartsick with love for her. His longing made everyone embarrassed for him, my mother included. There were others also memorable. Do you remember the man who whipped out a ventriloquist doll at the Benihana's? Yeah. Who the hell was that? But that was like a one date. We go into the Benihana and he's already seated and you know this is family style seating, right?

So we're sitting with like strangers and we sit down and course number one, you know when they do the little joke and they flip the shrimp into people's mouths. This guy pulls a ventriloquist doll from out under the table and he's like, "Give me some of that shrimp." You remember? And my Brendan was what, six years old. We were dying. The whole table was like, "No, no, this isn't it." Brendan liked it. He liked it. Well, he probably stopped liking it once I rained on everyone's parade, but you know, and I remember going to the parking lot with you and I was like, "Never again, mom.

That guy. Never again." And it was never again. Never again. There was one final suitor, the man my mom would marry when I was a senior in high school. My mother has asked me to refer to him as Mr. X in this story. I didn't trust Mr. X from the start. He seemed to show up out of nowhere with no comprehensible backstory, like he was born out of the ether. One day, he pulled into our driveway in a run-down car and never left again. The old suitors had been annoying, but they were innocent.

Mr. X was different. He put me on edge. He claimed he was an architect, but he never seemed to have any work, and he appeared to have no friends. I bugged my mom about his past. She explained she'd met him years before when she was pregnant with me, that he'd been part of a crew working on a renovation to the house my parents lived in. Whenever she told this story, I imagined my unborn self kicking from within her body, kicking in his direction, saying, "No, not him.

No." But I'd never heard the full story of their meeting until now. It happened back when my mother was still married to my father, Bob. So, I was just uh redoing the house and I hired him as an architect or builder or whatever I thought he was. So, here I was. I was pregnant and he came into the driveway for me to interview him. He drove in in an old beat up car, but he was so adorable and he was also 6 years younger than I was.

So, at that point, you know, that's a big difference between 30 and 24. That's a huge difference. And um I interviewed other people and I decided because he was cheaper for one uh and I had a little you know he's so cute. Never in my life ever thinking I'd ever cheat on Bob but you know imagining. So, um I remember in this one one point there was a bathroom in uh one of the guest rooms and we were debating putting a skylight in it and I got in the bathtub to show where how high the ceiling had to go and he got in behind me.

Oh boy. You're going to have a ghost movement here. No. And I just remember thinking, why did he get in so close to me? you know, I don't remember. Why did they do that? Anyway, the end of the story is that he got in a a car accident. A car hit him. He almost lost his leg. So, obviously, he took off with the money. The money she'd already paid him. Oh, God. I didn't know this part of the story. So, so I had to go to court um and prove that um he had indeed be been paid.

So that put a very bad taste in my mouth. When my producers contacted him, Mr. X remembered the story differently. He said the car accident happened before he met my mom and that he didn't run off with the money, that he doesn't know what happened to it. There was no financial grift. He also said he didn't do anything untored in the bathtub. Still, my mom got a bad feeling from their first interaction. There shouldn't have been a second one. But there was. after she was divorced and had all these suitors peacocking around.

It was 15 years after the bathtub incident. She was picking up my brother from summer camp. Mr. X was picking up his son. She didn't recognize him at first. I had seen Mr. X in the distance and thought, "He's so good-looking." She learned from a mutual friend that he was going through a divorce. Still, she didn't recognize him as the man from the botched Renault. He was just some handsome stranger. I was so excited he was going to be available. And so when I left, I gave him my phone number.

And I said, "If you ever want to talk, cuz it is a very difficult thing to go through, call me." Of course, it's a mine. And he did indeed call me probably within a week. And that's how we started dating. But I didn't know who he was at the beginning. I mean, you didn't know that it was the same guy who snuck up behind you in the bathtub? No. And you know why I didn't know? This is horrible to admit because he had a toupe on.

And when he had a toupe at the camp. Yeah. So he had much more hair than I remember him having. And it was darker. He was blonde when I knew him. And then he came over to me and said, "I know who you are." And I said, "You look familiar, but I don't know you." And he said, "I'm Mr. X." And uh I slammed him in the chest and said, "Jesus Christ, I don't want to talk. I shouldn't want to talk to you." But that's what had happened.

My mom told me that on their first real date, she did ask Mr. ex why he never paid the subcontractors at my parents' house. She said he told her he'd been in a car accident, was on heavy drugs, and hospitalized. She decided to forgive him. I'd never heard about that moment in the bathtub or the missing money. Listen, what's surprising to me about hearing this full story, you remembered that and thought, you know what, this is the guy to pursue. I'm going to let it go and just forget about it.

Yep. No red flags were waving around. Of course they were. No further comments. Before Mr. X, my mom was super social. When my parents were married, our house was like studio freaking 54. They had these awesome dinner parties where everybody looked nice and my mom would serve this Martha Stewart level cuisine with ease and panache that really impressed me as a kid. I remember going to sleep to the sound of people clinking glasses enjoying each other's company. When she got together with Mr. X though, her life started to narrow.

People didn't really come by our house much anymore. My sense is that Mr. X made people uncomfortable. Though he presented okay in conversation he was gruff and socially awkward, a wild animal in deck shorts. In public he treated strangers badly, barking at waiters, yelling at gas station attendants. In private it was worse. He was clingy and possessive with my mother, cutting her down with hurtful comments. The drinking stopped being social. Dinners were served on a tray in front of Fox News, the volume blaring with him hollering for more.

I graduated college, still not understanding what the hell my mom saw in this man or why she'd let him come between us. What were other positive things that drew you to Mr. X? In the beginning, um, I had a partner. Um, I was up at Candlewood Lake and everything was husband, wives or boyfriends and girlfriends. Candlewood Lake is where my mom was living at this point. I had somebody that I was proud to go be seen with and he was a so-called architect. Okay. So, he was handsome.

He was available as a partner, right? Good sex partner. My god. Sorry. That's true. Let me just digest that. Okay. But you just really didn't want to be alone. It sounds like I didn't like being alone, but I don't think I got married so I wouldn't be alone. I drilled into my mom about this. She said it was as simple as her wanting someone handsome on her arm. Everyone was coupled. She wanted something for herself. Why him though? Cuz you had all these other offers. Why him?

I guess cuz he didn't offer. Oh. Well, how did you get engaged? I told him we were getting married. Oh, God. It was you. You were the motor behind this. My life is coming undone right here in the living room. You You asked for his hand in marriage. No, I did not ask. I told him that we might just as well get married. Period. Romantic. And what did he say? Yay. So this speech I gave at my mother's wedding that made her so upset. I remember her complaining about it to strangers, people at the grocery store, airline stewards for over a decade.

If a waitress said something nice about mothers and daughters spending time together, she'd be like, "Huh, you should have heard how she talked about me at my wedding." I thought I was going to get a wonderful, you know, how wonderful my mother was growing up and how happy I was to see her happy. But what I remember about that speech is it was more about the negative things that I did in my life like i.e. smoking at my wedding. And I remember standing there and my heart just sunk and I just thought, "Oh my god, she really hates me.

That's what she heard, but it's not what I remember saying. Here's where I admit that my speech was actually a poem written by me. I was super into poetry as a teenager. Poetry as homage. When my best friend moved away, for example, I wrote her an ode that her mother had professionally calligraphied and framed, and that our school asked me to set to music and perform at assembly. For better or for worse, my visions of myself as a great American writer were clearly being indulged. So when my mom asked me to say something at her wedding, I cracked open my diary and set about writing something major.

Something so revealing it would cause the ground to crack beneath the altar or inspire someone to rise from the pews and speak out against their marriage to make the whole thing stop there and then. I really wanted that. In preparation for this conversation with my mom, I dug the poem out. Neither of us had seen it in 30 years. I am looking at a piece of paper that has 1, two, three, four, like seven stanzas on it. Um, wedding day poem for my mother. She walks through realms of habituated darkness.

And can you see the tumblestones that mar her rocky path? She is pushing. She is pulling. She is moving through the darkness. And oh, the road is long and every breath feels like her last. Oh, mother, mother, mother, behind my lids, I see you smiling at the bow within a boat above the sea. In retrospect, there's no chance anyone understood this [ __ ] poem. I'll skip ahead a bit. Other times, I see you, and often you are lonely, standing by our counter with a cigarette in hand.

There it is, the cigarette of my mother's discontent. And in my head, I hear you wishing body beyond boundaries. Somewhere, another place, another time, another land. Mother, the time has come for laying down roots. Right here, halfway through the poem, something weird occurs. My tone shifts in a way I don't remember at all. No longer do I see you glancing out beyond our window, wishing yourself other places very far from here. I think you found contentment. I think you found belonging. I think you have found a refuge where safety subdues fear.

Why had my mom given me such hell over this thing? The poem wasn't incendiary, nor was it damning of my mother. If anything, it seemed to wish her well. Here are the last lines. Look no more out the window. Look no more through the door. Look not beyond horizon. It's not foreign anymore. You found what you've been wanting. Your roots grow deep and true. You found a soul to worship and someone who loves you, too. Okay. The ending was good. Um, but I will say that at that point I probably wasn't listening anymore.

Mhm. And that's why I didn't hear the positiveness of it. You know, you're you no one longer have to look. You have you can go out and be happy with this person that's going to smoke with you. That's you know, like I wasn't going to be alone in this dark age of sin. It's negative to me still. Yeah. Yeah. The beginning is definitely negative still. Okay. So for me that's painful to hear because I was really acknowledging how much you were struggling and in to me that was what I was trying to do with the beginning was acknowledge everything that you were going through that was so so hard.

I can see that I you know you tell me that and I can understand it. Um I'm sorry that I didn't hear the positiveness in it. I I accept your apology. Phew. I probably owe my mom an apology as well. I mean, now that I'm rereading it for the first time since the wedding, I get why she was so upset and hurt. It's a pretty dark picture to present of someone on their wedding day. I also get how she couldn't hear the nice things I was saying.

Frankly, I didn't remember at all writing the end with that much compassion toward my mom and graciousness toward Mr. X. But hearing it, I do remember feeling that way. We were dealing with hard things as a family before my mom got remarried. My brother Brennan had gotten really sick. He basically moved into the Yale New Haven Children's Hospital when he was 10 years old because he was seizing uncontrollably. His heart would stop out of nowhere. It was a terrifying time. Mr. X was intolerant of everyone, but he was gentle with my brother, kind.

He helped calm my mom down. I know this meant a lot to her and also to Brennan, especially because our father was sort of checked out emotionally from what was going on. I do remember thinking, "This is the thing to hold on to here. This is his saving grace. I wish I'd made things simpler for my mom back then. I wish I could have said more clearly, "I'm worried about you." But anger is the teenage version of worry, and I was very angry. My mom wouldn't tolerate me saying negative things about her partner, so I bottled them inside, which made me snippy and resentful.

I stopped being nice to my mom. I stopped being light and silly with her. And as it turns out, I had reason to be worried. 2 days after the wedding, at the age of 49, my mom had a massive stroke. There had been signs she wasn't well on her wedding day already. And in the days following her hospitalization, I developed a theory that her body, not her mind, knew that the marriage was a mistake. I ran this by my mom. I think that's true. I mean, why was I sweating so much?

Why was I, you know, I think it's true. Yeah. I knew I knew I knew when I was buying my dress. I knew when I was, you know, I wasn't as happy. But I do believe that I anticipated this awfulness ahead of time in your body and every fiber. Oh jeez. I mean, I think to me that's heartbreaking to hear because that's what I thought was happening. I don't know. I'm just going to start crying. That's all right. You can cry, Mom. It's all right. Okay, I'm crying.

So, put that in. Okay. So, I should have called off the wedding and I knew that because I was just overwhelmed with everything. End of story. I entered this conversation with a bunch of questions for my mother, but it was coming down to one. How come you didn't listen to your guts? I think there were a lot of moments where you could have and and you you didn't. Were you sort of raised to defer to men or I was raised I knew nothing? I mean, I was always wrong.

You were raised to believe you knew nothing, right? I was I was because you're a woman. My mother told me this. So my mother was very doineering and she made me believe that I was worthless and everything else. And so when I married Mr. X, um I think that came back to haunt me, all my negativity against myself. And I think I didn't listen to myself cuz I couldn't be right. You know, I couldn't be right. So wild to hear because when I was little, my mom was the most capable person physically, socially, financially, like a total financial whiz, the best dress, the best looking, the best driver, the most fun.

Um, all of these fantastic things. And she had a real reputation still among among my friends in school. Um it makes me emotional to think of among my friends in school. It was just like how everyone looked up to Linda mom. Now to me this is all very sad because again it goes back to my mother and I hate I hate doing this going back to my mother and blaming my mother for some of the things I became and she was a huge smoker if I'm remembering correctly.

giant. I was so angry at myself for being a smoker. I just did more smoke and then you made it a So I hit a nerve. Yeah. Yep. My mom also had one main question for me. Why did you dislike me so much as a teenager? And you kind of have answered that really with all the things that were going on. But do you want to stop there and let me answer it? Sure. If you have Yeah, I have additional [sighs] I I I'm going to bristle at the word dislike cuz I actually liked you a lot and I looked up to you in a lot of ways.

What I could not stand was that you let yourself be kind of walked all over by lesser men. by men specifically, but also men that either didn't seem to deserve you or were actually bad people, you know, that weren't respected. You really were such a strong You want to say something? Yeah. I want to know what men they were. I thought it was just Mr. X. I mean, I don't remember anybody walking, you know, out of out of respect for my father, I'm still grieving. He just passed.

I don't want to talk too much about my dad, but um my father did not always treat you with a great amount of respect. So, you know, I do include him in some of the men that I feel you were subservient to. What I saw growing up in Greenwich, Connecticut in the 80s and 90s when Greenwich was truly the bedroom town of Wall Street. What I saw was a lot of vivacious men who got to go somewhere else all day long and come home to children that were bathed.

And these beautiful women that were their wives put out fresh flowers, had dinner out, and the man just came and, you know, put his feet under the table, ate the food, and then got to go kind of take a load off in a study. And so growing up, I was like, well, I'll be my dad. I'll be the man, you know? I I want to come home and have dinner at the table. I want to drive a cool car to work. And so something I bristled against with you is that a certain point you were taking on so much and it didn't necessarily seem to be bringing you joy.

And Mr. ex came into the picture and in the beginning I think he did he seemed to really worship you and um but certainly as the years went by I saw a man who demanded to be served and did not fetch as much as his own ice cubes and that made me really angry at you. I wanted you to stand up for yourself. Well, I think it's in my mind it was dislike of me because of the way you talked to me and the way you avoided me.

I could never see it any other way. Your tone of voice, I mean, I don't know how I could understand that that was because of uh my lack of respect for myself. Yeah. No, I don't think you could have. I mean, I was a bee. My mom's got a point here. I was sending mixed signals. I loved her. I was mean to her. I wanted her to be a feminist baddie who kicked out Mr. X. But I also benefited from her commitment to homemaking. The awesome dinners, her driving me around.

It was confusing. I was confusing. But I was clear on one thing. Mom, you chose him over us. You kept on choosing him. But one night last October, she made a different choice. In the kitchen of the house that Mr. X had designed to look art deco in style, but instead came out looking like a white castle burger joint. My mom fell and broke her back. Though it was early in the evening, Mr. X was too drunk to help her. She lay on the floor for hours.

Finally, he brought her her cell phone so she could call an ambulance herself. When when I was on that floor, I swore I was going to do everything I could to get get rid of him. She was hospitalized for months, unable to walk. Before the accident, I'd almost given up on my mom, but now she told me that she'd reached a turning point. She gave me power of attorney to fight in court on her behalf to evict Mr. X. For months, I went everywhere with legal paperwork in case I was called into court.

It was hard and it was ugly. It was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, actually. But we won. Mr. X left the house in an unholy state. I spent weeks cleaning up after him, boxing up his possessions. My mom came home from the hospital. My brother and his wife moved in with their cat, who took a particular liking to my mom. I didn't know how complicated it was going to be to get him out. And at that point, I didn't know you were going to be so instrumental in doing it.

Uh because of the amount of time you spent down here, I realized how much you cared about me. Until then, I really didn't know. I didn't. Mr. X drove us apart, and kicking him out is what brought us back together. It's a strange thing to rally around, but this is where we are. My mom is 79. I'm nearly 50. We have the rest of our lives to catch up on what we've missed. According mom, his novel is called Allan Opts Out. Dana Chis produced this story.

We did reach out to Mr. X and he told us he's designed hundreds of houses. He had lots of friends. He says he never left any house in any kind of disrepair in his life. Coming up, a man goes back to the job of his teenage dreams to see what is the same and what is gone forever with the passage of time. That's in a minute. Chicago public radio when our program continues. This American life. Today's program, intergenerational space travel. Stories of people braving the vast distances that separate young and old trying to understand life on the other side of the divide.

We've arrived at act two of our program. Act two cinema very teen. So when one of our producers Kandaja was a teenager, he had the greatest job he could humanly imagine and that was he worked at a movie theater, wore a cumberbun to work every day, snuck around the managers with secret schemes of his own. This was back in 2003, more than 20 years ago, and Ike wanted to know, "Is the job still the best?" He traveled back to his hometown in Wisconsin and spent some time at his old movie theater, the Marcus Point Cinema in Madison.

My friend Mark vouched for me to his manager. That's how I got hired there. And Mark knew how to make the most of the job. He taught me which door was the easiest to let your friends in, how to give away free popcorn by filling up discarded plastic bags so you don't mess up your popcorn tub count, and why volunteering to clean the bathroom was actually secretly a great job because you got out of the concession stand and you could sneak into a movie for a scene or two on the clock.

By senior year, I stacked lunch and study hall together in my schedule, and I'd treat friends to a school day matinea with popcorn and soda. I felt like a team god, second to none in the pantheon of high school jobs, except maybe drug dealer. When I got back to my old theater, the outside looked the same. Classic old Hollywood movie marquee. And inside there's still busy stained masking carpet and the long tunnel with theaters on either side. It even smelled the same. I had asked to speak to teens employees who were the same age I was when I started, but the company's comm's team in their HR department said no.

Instead, I could talk to a 26-year-old assistant manager named Darren Klingman. He was behind the ticket booth when I arrived. clean shaven, wearing a dress shirt with little flowers and a tie to match. Darren told me he did not apply for the same reasons I did. Namely, free movies. No, it was just uh just looked out that that was a perk. I didn't know about it until afterwards. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, it was a nice surprise. Nice surprise. Darren was just looking for any job. Besides getting to see movies, what about the other things that made the job so fun back in the early as are they still part of it?

I ran all my favorite high jinks we pulled at the movie theater by Darren. Before I tell you about the first thing, I just want you to remember our brains were still developing when we thought this was so funny. So basically, if you were the person who rips tickets, you were supposed to say, "Enjoy your show. But some genius came up with a twist that involved referencing male genitalia of specific dimensions. I told Darren about this. We'd mumble under our breaths. Um, enjoy your cho. Okay.

I was wondering if that's still happening. Not that I'm aware of. You've never heard somebody say, "Enjoy your cho?" No, I have not. Do you think that joke's funny? I mean, I didn't laugh. I noticed that in the early as it killed, at least with the kids working at the concessionist area. For sure. How many people just said, "Excuse me?" I think that was the most common cuz we're mumbling. Mumbling it, right? Yeah. Okay. Um, yeah. I mean, I think it could use some work. So, that's a change.

In 2026, Chad's over, folks. Another thing that I thought was so fun was volunteering to flatten boxes out back. If that sounds boring, you don't know the Wrestlemania technique that my friend taught me. Basically, you could fill up the industrial dumpster out back with unflattened boxes. pull yourself up to balance on the metal edge and then launch yourself into the air and drop the people's elbow on a box. Well, I mean, I tell you that sounds like a very interesting uh workman's comp issue uh getting ready.

But, uh that's area general manager Tom Ryelt, who corporate PR asked to join. That's not uh that's not how so many things I loved about this job are gone. We wore tuxedos to work made of this magical material that was impervious to nacho cheese stains. During a tornado, we got evacuated into the manager's office where we took an ID from the lost and found that looked enough like me to buy malt liquor exactly once. Now, kids are never let anywhere near the lost and found. The mini doughnut machine burned me, but it made delicious donuts.

Back in the day, it burned area general manager Tom Richel, too. I probably have one here somewhere, maybe there. Um, a little different these days. That's gone, too. But what about the big one? My favorite benefit of the job, letting my friends in for free. It really was the coolest thing I could think of to be able to grant this wish to anybody. A free night at the movies, a drink, popcorn. We were allowed to bring in one guest, but I was always happy to let in more friends through the back door near the dumpster.

Darren says that yes, that perk is still around, but these days the back door is not necessary. Just have him walk in the front door, come greet them over here, and we'll we'll hook them up. I always let them all know that there's no no reason to be sneaky in any way. if if you want your friends to come see a movie, tell me and I'll get them in. Um, I mean, it's a perk. So, they're allowed to bring in their friends, but calling out to an unscientific survey I did of three teens around America who work in movie theaters right now, I learned they don't want to.

One 18-year-old in Kansas City says she prefers watching movies at home where you can talk to your friends during the show and watch basically any movie ever made. What a waste. Darren at least understands how bringing someone in for free has the power to actually change your life. When I first started here a couple months later, I met my girlfriend. I brought her to a date here after hours. That might not technically be allowed. Um, what do you mean after hours? Oh, like everything was closed.

We We were closed down. Um, I asked her if she wanted to come see a movie. Um, so we watched we watched Wicked. Wow. You brought your girlfriend here cuz you had the keys to the place. I did. I had the keys. Um, she wasn't actually my girlfriend quite yet. Good first date. I knew Wicked was one of her favorite musicals, so it was like perfect thing. Wicked just came out. Why don't we watch it? the private showing and the biggest screen we can. Darren ushered her into an empty theater, sat her down in the best seat in the house, popcorn, diet coke in the cup holder, brought a sweater because theaters get chilly, and then he ran up to the projectionist booth, fast forwarded through the ads, and ran back down to sit with her just in time for the show to start.

That was two years ago. Now they're engaged. the success of your what other job would let you pull off a first date like that? Honestly, I mean, it was so memorable. We still we still think about it. Now, tell me if I'm overstating it, but would you guys be getting married if it wasn't for that? I would hope so, but I don't know. It's a It's a good question because of how how big of a thing it was and how like meaningful and unique it was that it definitely bumped me up some points.

Um so hopefully but definitely not as easily. Well, it's really similar to the thing that happened to me. Okay. When I was here, I told Darren that I also once tried to impress a girl while on the job. When I met her, I filled up a discarded plastic bag with popcorn and slipped it to her. Another time, I let her and her friend in the back. I'm no longer wearing a tuxedo to work, but that girl I snuck in, we're married and have two children. The job today definitely seems less fun, but there's still a little movie magic left.

He's one of the producers of our show. By the way, none of the three teenagers I talked to knew what Cho meant, but some of them thought it was funny anyway. Act three, Mama. Kenya Haram Flynn's in her 40s and the person across the divide in this story is six. It's her daughter. The two of them have been in a bit of a standoff when it comes to getting ready for school in the morning. It was going so badly Myra started recording these morning showdowns, trying to figure out if there was some way to fix things.

Here she is. My mornings used to look so different. In my younger days as a touring musician, I'd greet the sunrise on my way home from a gig in some random city and face plant into my bed. But now I start my day at 7:10 a.m. engaged in a battle of wills with my daughter Avalon over her hair. Hey baby, time it's time to do your hair. Now we're going to do it cuz you got to be at school in 10 minutes. When I was a kid, my mom and I had a similar hair routine.

Come here, baby. Please. She would sit me down at the breakfast table every morning, grab a cup of water and a hard bristle brush, and rake through my curls. It hurt like hell, but there was no point in complaining because my mom made it clear we didn't have time for any of that. My hair had to get done. That's just how it was. And that's just how it is for Avalon. Black hair is black hair. And look, I'm not doing box braids or knotless styles or writing her name in the side of her head with cornrows.

I'm just trying to comb through it and put it in a ponytail so that no one looks at us crazy. So, every morning I take her hair out of whatever shape it's landed in after a night of sleep without a bonnet. I still haven't found one that stays on her head. Then, I grab three different brushes, a big jar of leave-in conditioner, a spray bottle full of water, and get to work, which Avalon, who's six, hates. Stop me. Abby, it's not that bad. Stop. Stop. Stop.

No. No. I I can't use that brush. I have to use this brush. I just wanted to hold it. No, baby. You need to just Please, can you just look forward and bend your neck for me? Bend your neck down. For the record, holding this brush is a stalling tactic for Avalon. She wants to hold it, so I can't use it. And I see straight through you. Avalon Matthysse Wills. I know my daughter. Avalon, by all intents and purposes, seems impervious to pain. I've literally watched her face plant from the top of monkey bars onto the grass only to bounce up and try it again.

This is a kid who doesn't want to wait for her teeth to fall out naturally. As soon as they're loose, she's trying to pull them out of her head. And she won't even let the tooth fairy take her teeth. She wants to make jewelry out of them. She's perfectly weird and brave in all the best ways. So, for her to shake and cry only with me is devastating. But also, and I'm not proud of this, a big part of me is like, "Girl, nobody's dying here.

Suck it up, baby. I'm sorry. I have to get it." You already did. I didn't. Will it hurt always? Probably maybe [snorts] sometimes the things that we need are not comfortable. Hold up. Did I just actually say that? I'm not even sure I believe it. You know that moment when you open your mouth to say something and out comes your mother? This is one of the few times I heard that in my life and it really stuck with me. My mom was the black female dean of a military college.

She taught me that sometimes in life there are things like hair that you just have to tough out. In so much of my parenting, I've tried to be a little different. Do it my way. I don't know if I totally believe that black kids should just have to tough it out when they're in pain. I also don't want to be a parent that teaches their black kid that everything in life should feel like a lukewarm bath. When it comes to Avalon's hair, I feel so conflicted, like my two parenting styles are at war.

And when I heard myself say, "Sometimes the things we need are not comfortable," I felt like I had to talk to my mom about it. I needed her to back me up on this. So, I called her, Miss Martha Matthysse herself. I walked her through what had been going on with Avalon, the battle with her hair every day right before school, and I asked her, "This is just the way it is, right?" to which she said, "No, I think I found that's what you want to avoid because at some point if you're rushing and you're trying to do our hair, then it's going to hurt.

If it's going to sit up there for days without anybody doing anything, then you're going to get what you get." My mom saying pain was something that you should or even could avoid was wild to me. She did my hair up so tightly I got migraines at school. Mama, do you remember one time when you were doing my hair and you were doing it and I was like, "Ow, ow." And I was eating breakfast at the breakfast table and then I threw up. No, you don't remember that?

I don't. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means I don't remember it. Yeah. Then what did we do? Oh, you went and grabbed the You went and grabbed the trash can. and just in case I had to again. But yeah, I just I just remember I remember it hurting a lot. My mom once described my parenting style as permissive. Sometimes I feel like I have to be firmer when she's around so she'll be proud of me or something like that. So I couldn't quite wrap my head around what I was hearing.

I'm kind of surprised to hear you say that. No, it doesn't have to hurt. I feel like you're a tough cookie, mama. I am. Yeah. And I feel like you kind of raised me to be one. And I can feel that lesson starting as early as my hair, right? Just as I'm I can feel like I'm doing that with Avalon. Do you think that I should be making her tough for the world? Like the way I'm talking about hair is kind of a gateway into like toughen up.

Do you think that? Uh, no. I wouldn't use hair as a gateway to to toughen up because it has too many other racist and sexist implications. Did you want me to toughen up in those moments when I was like crying and like ouch this hurts? No. No, it hurt. No. Why would you? No. You didn't want me to like toughen up and just be like, "We got to get used to this because we're on a schedule. We got places going to happen whether you were tough or not, I guess." And at six, I'll use Avalon's age.

She's as tough as she's going to be right now. She and she can't be any tougher. I think she's she's the toughest little girl I know. Um so no, I I would not have equated doing your hair with tough or not. [clears throat] I always felt bad that for those 10, 15, how many ever minutes it was, that that's how you were starting your day. I didn't know that she'd had any feelings about our mornings. My mother told me it was the same for her when she was young.

She sat between her mother's knees and out came the hot combs, the hair grease, the brushes, the pain, which she likes to remind me was far worse than mine, as I remind my daughter, and we copy and paste. But instead of giving me the validation I wanted and letting me know that the way she'd done my hair is really the only way, my mom gave me some advice I really wasn't looking for. Give her some of her own hair. Oh. To take care of Yes. I've I've I've tried this.

We've tried this. Yes. And have Oh, you had Oh, yeah. We've tried like it's it's do your own hair day. Do your own hair day in my house means we give Avalon a brush and some bows and 15 minutes later absolutely nothing has happened. But it turned out that wasn't what my mother was suggesting. No, I mean have her do her own kitchen. Well, she'll be gentle with herself. If she does her own hair at this age, mama, she's avoiding her kitchen altogether. Let Okay. So, it looks like I don't know a rat's nest.

Nobody's gonna see it. Yeah. And if you remind her now, get in there because you don't want me in there. When you remind her of that, it's going to be your hand or mine. Yeah. I think if you give her something that she owns and if it's just this little bit back there, my goodness, let her have it. What would happen if you parted that off though? Seriously. Well, I know. I'm hearing you. I just don't I'm like when you're saying like, "Why don't you try this, right?

Why don't you try giving Avalon a little section for herself?" Um, why didn't you try that with me? Because no one told me that. That that's that that's how messages are passed on. The women my age, they were not brought up to even have these kind of conversations. And I don't even know if I had them in my brain. I mean, back then. Mhm. But I'm saying for you, I would think you do have options. When you know better, you do better. The next time I did Avalon's hair, I let her do some of it.

You ready to get the back just a little bit right here? Good job. Back here. Look at that. Why are you smiling whenever mama's doing it, you're crying? What's it feel like to do your own hair? Soft. It feels soft. Huh? It doesn't feel hard like a rock. But when mama does, it feels hard like a rock. Your hair feels hard like a rock or my brushing feels hard like a rock? The brushing feels hard like a rock. Mhm. Does this part hurt? I'm going to help.

Oh, good. I don't think I've ever seen your kitchen look so good. Should we show papa? Mhm. Papa Bear, you want to tell him? You want to tell him? Look at my kitchen. Wow. What? What about your kitchen? I did it. You did it? Yes. Good job, baby. You got that kitchen. As a parent, you're always looking for your failures. There are so many ways to fall short. But every once in a while, if you're lucky, the evidence is clear. You did something really good for your kid.

And with my mom's help, I was able to change this one thing in the wheel of my own motherhood. And maybe one day, Avalons. I want her to know what my mother knew and her mother before her. That when you're doing your hair, some parts need someone else's hands. In some parts we can learn to hold ourselves Myra Flynn. She's the host of the podcast Homego with Myra Flynn and is available wherever you get your podcast. Her story was produced by Emanuel Joi. have a generation gap between us.

We can't get alone no more. Well, our program was produced today by Dana Chibvis and Valerie Kipnis, who by the way produced the show Across an Intergenerational Divide. It was edited by David Castenbomb. The people who put together today's show include Adrienne Lily, Seth Lynn, Katherine Ray Mondo, Stone Nelson, Ruthie Patito, Nadia Raymond, Ryan Rumby, Ruby Schwarz, Lily Sullivan, Alyssa Ship, Francis Swanson, Nancy Updike, and Julie Whitaker. Our managing editors, Sarra Abdman, our senior editors, David Kenbomb and Nancy Updike. Our executive editor is Emanuel Barry.

Special thanks today to Diego Unaro, Brendan Mom, Jamie Ardolino, Eileen and Mark Civven, Rebecca Babcock, Shane Manship, BA Parker, Phil Wills, Samuela Horse, Kesler, Megan Kaine, Lori Laz, Dan Synin, Ray Tinuri, Ben Mossman, Brian Houston, Cora Bruce, Ingred Hftel, and Ellis Rzzer. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the public radio exchange. Thanks also to all of our This American Life Partners for helping us make the show with their contributions. Life partners get bonus episodes. They get this newsletter where I and other staffers recommend films and TV shows and other stuff.

They listen adfree. Join at thisamericanlife.org/lifeepartners. That link is also in the show notes. Thanks as always to our program's co-founder, Miss Charlie Malatia. You know, no matter what kind of restaurant we go to, Italian, Mexican, Thai, his order is always, always, always the same. Give me some of that shrimp. I'm Ara Glass. I'll be seeing you, of course, in the comments on Spotify, and I will be back next week with more stories of this American life. We can't get along no more. I tell you that a generation gap between us.

Oh, we can't get along no more. Generation between us. Next week on the podcast of This American Life. 10 years ago, Nicole Hannah Jones wrote this essay in the New York Times magazine about how she wasn't going to try to get her daughter into the very best school the way that so many other parents do. For principal reasons, she was going to send her to her local public school, a segregated low-income school. This article caused a huge stir. 10 years have passed, and you know who has some strong feelings about that decision?

Nicole's daughter. They talk about it next week on the podcast or on your local public radio station.