Inside The Democratic Party Civil War - Ezra Klein

Ezra Klein, so hot right now. Ezra Klein, so hot right now. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Oh, no. Did you ever expect to be >> Oh, no. Did you ever expect to be >> Oh, no. Did you ever expect to be referred to as an unlikely thirst trap? referred to as an unlikely thirst trap? referred to as an unlikely thirst trap? >> I did not and I try to ignore that it's >> I did not and I try to ignore that it's >> I did not and I try to ignore that it's happening. happening. happening. >> [laughter] >> It also has this funny quality some of >> It also has this funny quality some of this coverage of how now this coverage of how now this coverage of how now it's like I took off my glasses and grew it's like I took off my glasses and grew it's like I took off my glasses and grew a beard and it's very she's all that. a beard and it's very she's all that. a beard and it's very she's all that. It's like oh, like maybe he's It's like oh, like maybe he's It's like oh, like maybe he's I always look the same to me. I always look the same to me. I always look the same to me. >> Well, >> Well, >> Well, an unlikely thirst trap feels like the an unlikely thirst trap feels like the an unlikely thirst trap feels like the most backhanded insult or [laughter] most backhanded insult or [laughter] most backhanded insult or [laughter] compliment. I It's like a Rorschach test compliment. I It's like a Rorschach test compliment. I It's like a Rorschach test for whether or not you feel good about for whether or not you feel good about for whether or not you feel good about yourself. I don't know what way that's yourself. I don't know what way that's yourself. I don't know what way that's Is that Is that supposed to be a nice Is that Is that supposed to be a nice Is that Is that supposed to be a nice thing? Unlikely thirst trap. I don't uh thing? Unlikely thirst trap. I don't uh thing? Unlikely thirst trap. I don't uh >> When you are profiled, it is not >> When you are profiled, it is not >> When you are profiled, it is not supposed to be a nice thing. supposed to be a nice thing. supposed to be a nice thing. >> Okay, so you'll take an unlikely thirst >> Okay, so you'll take an unlikely thirst >> Okay, so you'll take an unlikely thirst trap. trap. trap. >> that's like also an important thing to >> that's like also an important thing to >> that's like also an important thing to know about just like the whole genre of know about just like the whole genre of know about just like the whole genre of profiling. It's never supposed to be a profiling. It's never supposed to be a profiling. It's never supposed to be a totally nice thing and you're not totally nice thing and you're not totally nice thing and you're not supposed to be a totally mean thing. supposed to be a totally mean thing. supposed to be a totally mean thing. It's trying to create energy. It's trying to create energy. It's trying to create energy. >> That's interesting. There was a rumor in >> That's interesting. There was a rumor in >> That's interesting. There was a rumor in that that you had to adjust your that that you had to adjust your that that you had to adjust your lighting on your podcast set to make you lighting on your podcast set to make you lighting on your podcast set to make you look less attractive because it was look less attractive because it was look less attractive because it was distracting from the the real substance distracting from the the real substance distracting from the the real substance of the of the of the >> It is a not true rumor. >> It is a not true rumor. >> It is a not true rumor. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And and it's going to be a even weirder >> And and it's going to be a even weirder >> And and it's going to be a even weirder thing to discuss like here while you're thing to discuss like here while you're thing to discuss like here while you're sitting there like three times is ripped sitting there like three times is ripped sitting there like three times is ripped in front of me as we talk about whether in front of me as we talk about whether in front of me as we talk about whether or not I'm hot. or not I'm hot. or not I'm hot. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] [gasps] [gasps] [gasps] >> Uh I know it's >> Uh I know it's >> Uh I know it's I thought that that was an interesting I thought that that was an interesting I thought that that was an interesting profile but yeah, profile but yeah, profile but yeah, how do you feel about having a mini how do you feel about having a mini how do you feel about having a mini celebrity moment like that? celebrity moment like that? celebrity moment like that? >> You try to focus on the work. >> You try to focus on the work. >> You try to focus on the work. I I and I mean that really seriously. I I I and I mean that really seriously. I I I and I mean that really seriously. I think that think that think that if you start to see yourself in the if you start to see yourself in the if you start to see yourself in the third person, third person, third person, it is very very dangerous for doing good it is very very dangerous for doing good it is very very dangerous for doing good work. It's like the the input of good work. It's like the the input of good work. It's like the the input of good work is independence of mind and for me work is independence of mind and for me work is independence of mind and for me particularly, it's a lot of time spent particularly, it's a lot of time spent particularly, it's a lot of time spent by myself reading books, thinking about by myself reading books, thinking about by myself reading books, thinking about things. things. things. Once the world's idea of you gets into Once the world's idea of you gets into Once the world's idea of you gets into your head, it is poison and I think your head, it is poison and I think your head, it is poison and I think that's true, by the way, for, you know, that's true, by the way, for, you know, that's true, by the way, for, you know, people get profiled or have many, you people get profiled or have many, you people get profiled or have many, you know, moments. I think it's also just know, moments. I think it's also just know, moments. I think it's also just naturally true for everybody now who has naturally true for everybody now who has naturally true for everybody now who has social media profiles and has this kind social media profiles and has this kind social media profiles and has this kind of constant like front stage that they of constant like front stage that they of constant like front stage that they keep up. I always tell people who like keep up. I always tell people who like keep up. I always tell people who like come to me for advice in in journalism come to me for advice in in journalism come to me for advice in in journalism or who are having some kind of or who are having some kind of or who are having some kind of pop in the press that you really have to pop in the press that you really have to pop in the press that you really have to be intentional. be intentional. be intentional. You have to be intentional about You have to be intentional about You have to be intentional about maintaining as much of a backstage as maintaining as much of a backstage as maintaining as much of a backstage as you can. you can. you can. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And when I see people who aren't having >> And when I see people who aren't having >> And when I see people who aren't having a pop, like destroying their backstage, a pop, like destroying their backstage, a pop, like destroying their backstage, I worry about them. The streamers worry I worry about them. The streamers worry I worry about them. The streamers worry me like in an almost paternalistic way. me like in an almost paternalistic way. me like in an almost paternalistic way. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I watch the amount of their lives >> I watch the amount of their lives >> I watch the amount of their lives they're putting on on online, they're they're putting on on online, they're they're putting on on online, they're putting in front of a camera, how little putting in front of a camera, how little putting in front of a camera, how little is left for them. is left for them. is left for them. And psychologically, I think it is going And psychologically, I think it is going And psychologically, I think it is going to do a lot of people a lot of damage. to do a lot of people a lot of damage. to do a lot of people a lot of damage. >> Everyone feels uncomfortable watching >> Everyone feels uncomfortable watching >> Everyone feels uncomfortable watching that. that. that. >> You ever read Super Sad True Love Story >> You ever read Super Sad True Love Story >> You ever read Super Sad True Love Story by Gary Shteyngart? by Gary Shteyngart? by Gary Shteyngart? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> It's an amazing, amazing book. It is as >> It's an amazing, amazing book. It is as >> It's an amazing, amazing book. It is as prophetic a book on this moment as prophetic a book on this moment as prophetic a book on this moment as anybody has ever done. It was probably anybody has ever done. It was probably anybody has ever done. It was probably done 10, 20, 10, 15 years ago. done 10, 20, 10, 15 years ago. done 10, 20, 10, 15 years ago. Uh and everything in it, it's like it Uh and everything in it, it's like it Uh and everything in it, it's like it it's all about a world of streamers and it's all about a world of streamers and it's all about a world of streamers and sort of America coming apart and people sort of America coming apart and people sort of America coming apart and people having having having everything around them like raided in everything around them like raided in everything around them like raided in public and everybody in it is looks public and everybody in it is looks public and everybody in it is looks maxing. There's a whole thing about how maxing. There's a whole thing about how maxing. There's a whole thing about how books smell bad, like it's sort of like books smell bad, like it's sort of like books smell bad, like it's sort of like dick casa to have physical books. So, at dick casa to have physical books. So, at dick casa to have physical books. So, at least we haven't done that yet. But you least we haven't done that yet. But you least we haven't done that yet. But you you can really you can really you can really have these moments right now where you have these moments right now where you have these moments right now where you realize we have built realize we have built realize we have built the dystopia. the dystopia. the dystopia. We have done the thing the sci-fi We have done the thing the sci-fi We have done the thing the sci-fi writers warned us against doing just in writers warned us against doing just in writers warned us against doing just in all directions all at once. all directions all at once. all directions all at once. And it's just hope it turns out well And it's just hope it turns out well And it's just hope it turns out well this time. this time. this time. >> How do you think about protecting the >> How do you think about protecting the >> How do you think about protecting the backstage? >> I keep a lot of time quiet. >> I keep a lot of time quiet. I I I don't go to very much. Did you read uh Lena Dunham's new book? Did you read uh Lena Dunham's new book? It's great, Fame Sucks, and she talks a It's great, Fame Sucks, and she talks a It's great, Fame Sucks, and she talks a bunch about the way everything creates bunch about the way everything creates bunch about the way everything creates more of itself. Everything you do more of itself. Everything you do more of itself. Everything you do creates more of itself. And so if you creates more of itself. And so if you creates more of itself. And so if you get on different circuits, it just get on different circuits, it just get on different circuits, it just it eats you. It eats the time. So for it eats you. It eats the time. So for it eats you. It eats the time. So for me, it's like the way I think about my me, it's like the way I think about my me, it's like the way I think about my work, work, work, most weeks I bring out three things. I most weeks I bring out three things. I most weeks I bring out three things. I bring out two podcast episodes and one bring out two podcast episodes and one bring out two podcast episodes and one call. call. call. And the week is just very much organized And the week is just very much organized And the week is just very much organized around that. around that. around that. And I just And I just And I just more and more and more try to cut out more and more and more try to cut out more and more and more try to cut out like everything that is not directly like everything that is not directly like everything that is not directly feeding into one of those three pieces feeding into one of those three pieces feeding into one of those three pieces of work of work of work or is not my children, my family, or is not my children, my family, or is not my children, my family, and deep friendships, or like personal and deep friendships, or like personal and deep friendships, or like personal care and time, right? And that's already care and time, right? And that's already care and time, right? And that's already a lot. Like even as I say those five-ish a lot. Like even as I say those five-ish a lot. Like even as I say those five-ish things to you, things to you, things to you, I feel tired. I feel tired. I feel tired. >> Yeah, and the fact that >> Yeah, and the fact that >> Yeah, and the fact that I guess I guess I guess one shortcut is to just make all of the one shortcut is to just make all of the one shortcut is to just make all of the other stuff part of the main thing. other stuff part of the main thing. other stuff part of the main thing. To turn all of the private life into the To turn all of the private life into the To turn all of the private life into the public life. Think uh public life. Think uh public life. Think uh Mary Harrington talks about a digital Mary Harrington talks about a digital Mary Harrington talks about a digital hijab that she wears, where she covers hijab that she wears, where she covers hijab that she wears, where she covers up a lot of the parts of her that she up a lot of the parts of her that she up a lot of the parts of her that she doesn't want the doesn't want the doesn't want the >> Oh, that's a great >> Oh, that's a great >> Oh, that's a great >> the world to see. >> the world to see. >> the world to see. >> A digital That's a great coinage. >> A digital That's a great coinage. >> A digital That's a great coinage. >> She wears this this thing. She >> She wears this this thing. She >> She wears this this thing. She told this story. She finished her first told this story. She finished her first told this story. She finished her first marathon, a half marathon, something, marathon, a half marathon, something, marathon, a half marathon, something, some race. She's into running. some race. She's into running. some race. She's into running. And uh she took a selfie at the end cuz And uh she took a selfie at the end cuz And uh she took a selfie at the end cuz that's that's what you do, right? You're that's that's what you do, right? You're that's that's what you do, right? You're I'm proud of this thing. And she went to I'm proud of this thing. And she went to I'm proud of this thing. And she went to post it, and she sort of saw this post it, and she sort of saw this post it, and she sort of saw this universe split, which was how much of universe split, which was how much of universe split, which was how much of this is for me and how much of this is this is for me and how much of this is this is for me and how much of this is for the internet. And yeah, I mean, for the internet. And yeah, I mean, for the internet. And yeah, I mean, it is very easy to be distracted from it is very easy to be distracted from it is very easy to be distracted from doing work. doing work. doing work. >> I'm curious how you handle this because >> I'm curious how you handle this because >> I'm curious how you handle this because you have a tougher job on this than I you have a tougher job on this than I you have a tougher job on this than I do. So my work, do. So my work, do. So my work, I can define it much more tightly. You I can define it much more tightly. You I can define it much more tightly. You know, it's primarily about politics, know, it's primarily about politics, know, it's primarily about politics, current affairs, geopolitics. I bring in current affairs, geopolitics. I bring in current affairs, geopolitics. I bring in some things I care about like meditation some things I care about like meditation some things I care about like meditation and but for the most part and but for the most part and but for the most part it is not natural I have to choose to it is not natural I have to choose to it is not natural I have to choose to let it colonize the things that are let it colonize the things that are let it colonize the things that are closer to my core. closer to my core. closer to my core. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But yours like the topics you touch on >> But yours like the topics you touch on >> But yours like the topics you touch on the show they're very personal. So the show they're very personal. So the show they're very personal. So anything can become content for you. anything can become content for you. anything can become content for you. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. It's been a a purposeful I think I'm It's been a a purposeful I think I'm It's been a a purposeful I think I'm quite by disposition I'm quite a private quite by disposition I'm quite a private quite by disposition I'm quite a private person. Like my personal life's always person. Like my personal life's always person. Like my personal life's always remained very private and that's been remained very private and that's been remained very private and that's been something that uh a bunch of friends something that uh a bunch of friends something that uh a bunch of friends gave me advice on early on and I'm gave me advice on early on and I'm gave me advice on early on and I'm really glad that I followed it. Once you really glad that I followed it. Once you really glad that I followed it. Once you open that door, I think it's very open that door, I think it's very open that door, I think it's very difficult to reverse it. People are difficult to reverse it. People are difficult to reverse it. People are interested in oh who you dating now and interested in oh who you dating now and interested in oh who you dating now and and and what what does this mean and oh and and what what does this mean and oh and and what what does this mean and oh why is he what who's he aligning himself why is he what who's he aligning himself why is he what who's he aligning himself with? As soon as you open that door with? As soon as you open that door with? As soon as you open that door it continue the snowball continues to to it continue the snowball continues to to it continue the snowball continues to to roll. Um mercifully for me I think roll. Um mercifully for me I think roll. Um mercifully for me I think almost purposely trying to be as boring almost purposely trying to be as boring almost purposely trying to be as boring as possible with your personal life is a as possible with your personal life is a as possible with your personal life is a great prophylactic. Like people just get great prophylactic. Like people just get great prophylactic. Like people just get very very but they'll move on to what is very very but they'll move on to what is very very but they'll move on to what is more easily consumable and for as long more easily consumable and for as long more easily consumable and for as long as Destiny exists as Destiny exists as Destiny exists I am not going to be top of the list. I am not going to be top of the list. I am not going to be top of the list. Like there was a period where Destiny's Like there was a period where Destiny's Like there was a period where Destiny's private life was just made the most private life was just made the most private life was just made the most public thing over and over and over public thing over and over and over public thing over and over and over again and again and again and Hasan will get in bother over and over Hasan will get in bother over and over Hasan will get in bother over and over and over and over again or the Nick and over and over again or the Nick and over and over again or the Nick Fuentes will come through or Huberman Fuentes will come through or Huberman Fuentes will come through or Huberman will come through. You know, there's a will come through. You know, there's a will come through. You know, there's a lot of people that are like easier lot of people that are like easier lot of people that are like easier access than me who I I think my biggest access than me who I I think my biggest access than me who I I think my biggest defense is purposely making my private defense is purposely making my private defense is purposely making my private life very boring life very boring life very boring and not really talking about it all that and not really talking about it all that and not really talking about it all that much and people just move on and that much and people just move on and that much and people just move on and that for me is like as I'm completely fine by for me is like as I'm completely fine by for me is like as I'm completely fine by that as my strategy. that as my strategy. that as my strategy. >> The other thing that I think is >> The other thing that I think is >> The other thing that I think is important is not exposing yourself to important is not exposing yourself to important is not exposing yourself to the algorithms all that much. Mhm. So I the algorithms all that much. Mhm. So I the algorithms all that much. Mhm. So I don't tweet. don't tweet. don't tweet. I we started putting clips up on I we started putting clips up on I we started putting clips up on Instagram and even doing a little bit Instagram and even doing a little bit Instagram and even doing a little bit more of that I feel the pull of it the more of that I feel the pull of it the more of that I feel the pull of it the want of it. So I'm a big fan of all want of it. So I'm a big fan of all want of it. So I'm a big fan of all these mid-century media theorists like these mid-century media theorists like these mid-century media theorists like Marshall McLuhan and and Neil Postman Marshall McLuhan and and Neil Postman Marshall McLuhan and and Neil Postman and Walter Ong and and all of them and Walter Ong and and all of them and Walter Ong and and all of them basically, their main idea basically, their main idea basically, their main idea is that every medium changes the user. is that every medium changes the user. is that every medium changes the user. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, we think what we're doing when we, >> So, we think what we're doing when we, >> So, we think what we're doing when we, you know, turn on the television or turn you know, turn on the television or turn you know, turn on the television or turn on X or turn on Instagram or read a book on X or turn on Instagram or read a book on X or turn on Instagram or read a book for that matter, for that matter, for that matter, is we are consuming content. We are is we are consuming content. We are is we are consuming content. We are choosing and we can make better or worse choosing and we can make better or worse choosing and we can make better or worse decisions, right? We can read better or decisions, right? We can read better or decisions, right? We can read better or worse people, watch better or worse worse people, watch better or worse worse people, watch better or worse shows. shows. shows. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And their whole view is no, it is always >> And their whole view is no, it is always >> And their whole view is no, it is always using and changing you. There's a great using and changing you. There's a great using and changing you. There's a great Marshall McLuhan quote where he says, um Marshall McLuhan quote where he says, um Marshall McLuhan quote where he says, um I'll butcher it a little bit from I'll butcher it a little bit from I'll butcher it a little bit from memory, but he says, memory, but he says, memory, but he says, "The content of a medium is the juicy "The content of a medium is the juicy "The content of a medium is the juicy steak steak steak thrown to distract the watchdog of the thrown to distract the watchdog of the thrown to distract the watchdog of the mind." mind." mind." >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And his point is that >> And his point is that >> And his point is that while you're sitting there getting mad while you're sitting there getting mad while you're sitting there getting mad at a tweet, what's actually happening is at a tweet, what's actually happening is at a tweet, what's actually happening is it your sense it your sense it your sense of of of how ideas should feel and look, how long how ideas should feel and look, how long how ideas should feel and look, how long they should be. While you're sitting they should be. While you're sitting they should be. While you're sitting there looking at Instagram, your sense there looking at Instagram, your sense there looking at Instagram, your sense of what everything should look like, of what everything should look like, of what everything should look like, it's all changing. it's all changing. it's all changing. And as it changes, you change with it And as it changes, you change with it And as it changes, you change with it and you and particularly with these and you and particularly with these and you and particularly with these algorithms that create, you know, algorithms that create, you know, algorithms that create, you know, constant rankings and other super sad constant rankings and other super sad constant rankings and other super sad true love story thing, true love story thing, true love story thing, it creates a a constant feeling of it creates a a constant feeling of it creates a a constant feeling of "Well, shouldn't I? Shouldn't I be "Well, shouldn't I? Shouldn't I be "Well, shouldn't I? Shouldn't I be competing here, too?" competing here, too?" competing here, too?" >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And what you can do and what I've seen a >> And what you can do and what I've seen a >> And what you can do and what I've seen a lot of people do is they get into local lot of people do is they get into local lot of people do is they get into local maximums, maximums, maximums, but long-term minimums or degradations but long-term minimums or degradations but long-term minimums or degradations where you're doing a lot to be as where you're doing a lot to be as where you're doing a lot to be as competitive on, say, Twitter or X competitive on, say, Twitter or X competitive on, say, Twitter or X as you can be and you don't realize it as you can be and you don't realize it as you can be and you don't realize it in the long run in the long run in the long run the like the trade you're making on that the like the trade you're making on that the like the trade you're making on that influence is that the way you think is influence is that the way you think is influence is that the way you think is degrading. And so, that the long-term degrading. And so, that the long-term degrading. And so, that the long-term work is going to be worse. Yeah. work is going to be worse. Yeah. work is going to be worse. Yeah. >> And in the long run, you know, >> And in the long run, you know, >> And in the long run, you know, it's hard to maintain a It's hard to it's hard to maintain a It's hard to it's hard to maintain a It's hard to maintain a career where you have to be maintain a career where you have to be maintain a career where you have to be interesting Mhm. over an extended period interesting Mhm. over an extended period interesting Mhm. over an extended period of time. And I think people who are of time. And I think people who are of time. And I think people who are trying to do that trying to do that trying to do that need to be very, very, very intentional need to be very, very, very intentional need to be very, very, very intentional in the same way that like an athlete in the same way that like an athlete in the same way that like an athlete needs to be very intentional needs to be very intentional needs to be very intentional about, you know, avoiding injury about, you know, avoiding injury about, you know, avoiding injury and burnout. and burnout. and burnout. >> Getting too captured by one >> Getting too captured by one >> Getting too captured by one one black hole, being sucked into one one black hole, being sucked into one one black hole, being sucked into one particular medium. There's this great particular medium. There's this great particular medium. There's this great story, I think it's uh Dostoevsky or story, I think it's uh Dostoevsky or story, I think it's uh Dostoevsky or Nietzsche, and Nietzsche, and Nietzsche, and the first part of their career they were the first part of their career they were the first part of their career they were writing by hand, and the second part of writing by hand, and the second part of writing by hand, and the second part of their career they started writing on their career they started writing on their career they started writing on typewriter. Mhm. And they explained the typewriter. Mhm. And they explained the typewriter. Mhm. And they explained the difference between the first and the difference between the first and the difference between the first and the second. They said the sentences got second. They said the sentences got second. They said the sentences got shorter and punchier, and their thoughts shorter and punchier, and their thoughts shorter and punchier, and their thoughts occurred in a different way. Their occurred in a different way. Their occurred in a different way. Their writing style changed because of the writing style changed because of the writing style changed because of the medium. And that's them just being medium. And that's them just being medium. And that's them just being facilitated by a new output medium, not facilitated by a new output medium, not facilitated by a new output medium, not even even even absorbing things in a different manner. absorbing things in a different manner. absorbing things in a different manner. So, when you've got it going both ways, So, when you've got it going both ways, So, when you've got it going both ways, this bidirectional thing, I'm going to this bidirectional thing, I'm going to this bidirectional thing, I'm going to be influenced by what I see on this be influenced by what I see on this be influenced by what I see on this particular platform, yeah, it's going to particular platform, yeah, it's going to particular platform, yeah, it's going to be deranging. be deranging. be deranging. >> So, one thing that I think about and and >> So, one thing that I think about and and >> So, one thing that I think about and and I've never quite been able to come up I've never quite been able to come up I've never quite been able to come up with a clean enough theory to start with a clean enough theory to start with a clean enough theory to start using about, but we can work it out here using about, but we can work it out here using about, but we can work it out here together, together, together, is I think we need a better politics of is I think we need a better politics of is I think we need a better politics of attention. attention. attention. And one of the ideas that influenced me, And one of the ideas that influenced me, And one of the ideas that influenced me, which came from an academic paper that I which came from an academic paper that I which came from an academic paper that I don't remember the authors to cite, but don't remember the authors to cite, but don't remember the authors to cite, but is to think about attention is to think about attention is to think about attention as a public good or collective resource. as a public good or collective resource. as a public good or collective resource. And attention then is subject to tragedy And attention then is subject to tragedy And attention then is subject to tragedy of the commons problem. So, a tragedy of of the commons problem. So, a tragedy of of the commons problem. So, a tragedy of commons problem is when, you know, commons problem is when, you know, commons problem is when, you know, everybody has access to a grazing field. everybody has access to a grazing field. everybody has access to a grazing field. And so, it then becomes very quickly a And so, it then becomes very quickly a And so, it then becomes very quickly a problem where people will begin trying problem where people will begin trying problem where people will begin trying to graze as much of the field they can, to graze as much of the field they can, to graze as much of the field they can, and then everybody has to do more, and and then everybody has to do more, and and then everybody has to do more, and soon enough you've exhausted this public soon enough you've exhausted this public soon enough you've exhausted this public good. good. good. And I think our attention is like that, And I think our attention is like that, And I think our attention is like that, and we only have so much of it, and we and we only have so much of it, and we and we only have so much of it, and we have it as a collective, not just have it as a collective, not just have it as a collective, not just individuals. individuals. individuals. And we are being like attention fracked. And we are being like attention fracked. And we are being like attention fracked. And the more competition there is for And the more competition there is for And the more competition there is for our attention, the more aggressive our attention, the more aggressive our attention, the more aggressive everybody is about trying to get it. I everybody is about trying to get it. I everybody is about trying to get it. I don't know if you get on as many don't know if you get on as many don't know if you get on as many political emails and text message, you political emails and text message, you political emails and text message, you know, things that I do. know, things that I do. know, things that I do. >> Zero. >> Zero. >> Zero. >> God bless. >> God bless. >> God bless. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> But they have gotten so >> But they have gotten so >> But they have gotten so loud. They come with all these siren loud. They come with all these siren loud. They come with all these siren emojis now, and it's always like it's emojis now, and it's always like it's emojis now, and it's always like it's Chuck Schumer and Ezra, and I'm on I'm Chuck Schumer and Ezra, and I'm on I'm Chuck Schumer and Ezra, and I'm on I'm on my knees begging, right? Everything on my knees begging, right? Everything on my knees begging, right? Everything is like the end of the world, everything is like the end of the world, everything is like the end of the world, everything is an emergency. is an emergency. is an emergency. You know, a lot of these places are like You know, a lot of these places are like You know, a lot of these places are like I always joke that um X is like I always joke that um X is like I always joke that um X is like gain-of-function research for takes. gain-of-function research for takes. gain-of-function research for takes. It's just everybody competing to take It's just everybody competing to take It's just everybody competing to take like a normal take like a normal take like a normal take until you can turn it into something until you can turn it into something until you can turn it into something that has viral contagion. And then that has viral contagion. And then that has viral contagion. And then occasionally they do it too well, and it occasionally they do it too well, and it occasionally they do it too well, and it escapes contagion and destroys our escapes contagion and destroys our escapes contagion and destroys our lives. lives. lives. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Right? Like that's how X works. >> Right? Like that's how X works. >> Right? Like that's how X works. And And And but collectively the effect but collectively the effect but collectively the effect is our collective attention is is our collective attention is is our collective attention is irritable, is short, it's changing. The irritable, is short, it's changing. The irritable, is short, it's changing. The people we want are changing. people we want are changing. people we want are changing. Uh to to again just stay on the the Uh to to again just stay on the the Uh to to again just stay on the the medium thing for a minute. There's a medium thing for a minute. There's a medium thing for a minute. There's a great uh great uh great uh it's not a controversy, it's it's a Neil it's not a controversy, it's it's a Neil it's not a controversy, it's it's a Neil Postman argument that he makes in Postman argument that he makes in Postman argument that he makes in Amusing Ourselves to Death, which is Amusing Ourselves to Death, which is Amusing Ourselves to Death, which is always one of my books I recommend to always one of my books I recommend to always one of my books I recommend to people. people. people. And he says that uh people often say to And he says that uh people often say to And he says that uh people often say to him that how can you say television, cuz him that how can you say television, cuz him that how can you say television, cuz this guy's writing, you know, around this guy's writing, you know, around this guy's writing, you know, around television, television, television, is dreck. Like look at Sesame Street. is dreck. Like look at Sesame Street. is dreck. Like look at Sesame Street. And he says, I don't worry about the And he says, I don't worry about the And he says, I don't worry about the dreck on television. I worry about dreck on television. I worry about dreck on television. I worry about Sesame Street. Sesame Street. Sesame Street. Because what Sesame Street is doing is Because what Sesame Street is doing is Because what Sesame Street is doing is teaching kids that education should teaching kids that education should teaching kids that education should actually be entertainment. He said, the actually be entertainment. He said, the actually be entertainment. He said, the trash on television is no problem. trash on television is no problem. trash on television is no problem. Everybody knows it's trash. It's where Everybody knows it's trash. It's where Everybody knows it's trash. It's where you're subtly changing you're subtly changing you're subtly changing >> masquerading as something else. >> masquerading as something else. >> masquerading as something else. >> It it's where you're changing your >> It it's where you're changing your >> It it's where you're changing your expectations for everything else should expectations for everything else should expectations for everything else should be. So I mean, right now we're moving be. So I mean, right now we're moving be. So I mean, right now we're moving into a period in politics where I think into a period in politics where I think into a period in politics where I think in order to be a successful politician, in order to be a successful politician, in order to be a successful politician, you have to be attentionally capable. you have to be attentionally capable. you have to be attentionally capable. You have to be able to earn attention in You have to be able to earn attention in You have to be able to earn attention in a way you didn't have to before. Zora a way you didn't have to before. Zora a way you didn't have to before. Zora Neale Hurston, Spencer Pratt, Graham Neale Hurston, Spencer Pratt, Graham Neale Hurston, Spencer Pratt, Graham Platner, Donald Trump, right? You can do Platner, Donald Trump, right? You can do Platner, Donald Trump, right? You can do it from different James Talerico. You it from different James Talerico. You it from different James Talerico. You can do it in better or worse ways. What can do it in better or worse ways. What can do it in better or worse ways. What you can't be you can't be you can't be in a competitive race any longer in a competitive race any longer in a competitive race any longer is a somewhat boring talker is a somewhat boring talker is a somewhat boring talker who's just really good at the who's just really good at the who's just really good at the >> Deliver on the policy. I understand the >> Deliver on the policy. I understand the >> Deliver on the policy. I understand the fundamental economics of this. I'm great fundamental economics of this. I'm great fundamental economics of this. I'm great with my constituents. with my constituents. with my constituents. >> You need more aura. >> You need more aura. >> You need more aura. >> How are things going for Keir Starmer? >> How are things going for Keir Starmer? >> How are things going for Keir Starmer? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I mean, yeah, a a man that is the >> I mean, yeah, a a man that is the >> I mean, yeah, a a man that is the equivalent of a ham sandwich. Uh did you equivalent of a ham sandwich. Uh did you equivalent of a ham sandwich. Uh did you see this tweet? It's at the very bottom. see this tweet? It's at the very bottom. see this tweet? It's at the very bottom. Did you see that tweet earlier on today? Did you see that tweet earlier on today? Did you see that tweet earlier on today? Very, very bottom. It's hiding down Very, very bottom. It's hiding down Very, very bottom. It's hiding down there. there. there. >> I did, yes. I saw both of those. >> I did, yes. I saw both of those. >> I did, yes. I saw both of those. >> Yeah. So, I had to double-check that >> Yeah. So, I had to double-check that >> Yeah. So, I had to double-check that @thedemocrats is the Democrats official @thedemocrats is the Democrats official @thedemocrats is the Democrats official proper proper proper >> Democratic National Committee, yeah. >> Democratic National Committee, yeah. >> Democratic National Committee, yeah. >> Correct. Yeah. And I'm like, >> Correct. Yeah. And I'm like, >> Correct. Yeah. And I'm like, is this a parody account? It's got to is this a parody account? It's got to is this a parody account? It's got to be. So, be. So, be. So, the Democrats tweet fired up, ready to the Democrats tweet fired up, ready to the Democrats tweet fired up, ready to go. It's time to take back Texas. go. It's time to take back Texas. go. It's time to take back Texas. Stephen Miller replies and says, "The Stephen Miller replies and says, "The Stephen Miller replies and says, "The Democrats made history in Texas by Democrats made history in Texas by Democrats made history in Texas by nominating their first transgender nominating their first transgender nominating their first transgender Senate candidate." Senate candidate." Senate candidate." And @thedemocrats reply, "Shut up, you And @thedemocrats reply, "Shut up, you And @thedemocrats reply, "Shut up, you ugly fuck." ugly fuck." ugly fuck." And that reached at least 50 million And that reached at least 50 million And that reached at least 50 million people. It's like 300,000 likes. Right. people. It's like 300,000 likes. Right. people. It's like 300,000 likes. Right. I I get it. The he did it first thing of I I get it. The he did it first thing of I I get it. The he did it first thing of pointing from one side to the other, but pointing from one side to the other, but pointing from one side to the other, but is is is Maybe this is just my sort of British Maybe this is just my sort of British Maybe this is just my sort of British properness coming through. properness coming through. properness coming through. The The The the thought that a the thought that a the thought that a the online the online the online representative account for one of the representative account for one of the representative account for one of the parties saying, "Shut up, you ugly parties saying, "Shut up, you ugly parties saying, "Shut up, you ugly fuck." Is Is that not absurd? Like, that fuck." Is Is that not absurd? Like, that fuck." Is Is that not absurd? Like, that feels kind of deranged to me. feels kind of deranged to me. feels kind of deranged to me. >> deranged. But But this is a little bit >> deranged. But But this is a little bit >> deranged. But But this is a little bit what I mean about the whole medium, what I mean about the whole medium, what I mean about the whole medium, right? Because one thing that does One right? Because one thing that does One right? Because one thing that does One thing that every movement like this thing that every movement like this thing that every movement like this does, and I take Donald Trump honestly does, and I take Donald Trump honestly does, and I take Donald Trump honestly as a bit of a first mover here, is it is as a bit of a first mover here, is it is as a bit of a first mover here, is it is shifting people's sense of what shifting people's sense of what shifting people's sense of what political communication should sound political communication should sound political communication should sound like. like. like. >> Agreed. >> Agreed. >> Agreed. >> So, I mean, that is the outcome, I would >> So, I mean, that is the outcome, I would >> So, I mean, that is the outcome, I would say, of a long process of learning say, of a long process of learning say, of a long process of learning that that that if you tweet like a normal, sober if you tweet like a normal, sober if you tweet like a normal, sober stalwart institution, boring. stalwart institution, boring. stalwart institution, boring. >> Boring. >> Boring. >> Boring. >> Barack Obama is I I'm a big Barack Obama >> Barack Obama is I I'm a big Barack Obama >> Barack Obama is I I'm a big Barack Obama fan. fan. fan. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> That guy's Twitter account, not great. >> That guy's Twitter account, not great. >> That guy's Twitter account, not great. >> Not sexy enough. >> Not sexy enough. >> Not sexy enough. >> Not sexy enough. >> Not sexy enough. >> Not sexy enough. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> And and so this is the way everything >> And and so this is the way everything >> And and so this is the way everything changes. Like it actually it it changes changes. Like it actually it it changes changes. Like it actually it it changes the expectations, it changes the people, the expectations, it changes the people, the expectations, it changes the people, and it changes what can succeed. and it changes what can succeed. and it changes what can succeed. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And so, you know, sometimes maybe they I >> And so, you know, sometimes maybe they I >> And so, you know, sometimes maybe they I mean I guess you can ask the Democrat mean I guess you can ask the Democrat mean I guess you can ask the Democrat out the Democrats if they went too far out the Democrats if they went too far out the Democrats if they went too far or not. Maybe they Maybe to them it's a or not. Maybe they Maybe to them it's a or not. Maybe they Maybe to them it's a huge success, but the This is what I huge success, but the This is what I huge success, but the This is what I mean when you have to think about these mean when you have to think about these mean when you have to think about these mediums, you have to think about the mediums, you have to think about the mediums, you have to think about the attention, you have to think about the attention, you have to think about the attention, you have to think about the norms, you have to think about the norms, you have to think about the norms, you have to think about the discourse as a kind of public good. What discourse as a kind of public good. What discourse as a kind of public good. What that is doing Like that right there is a that is doing Like that right there is a that is doing Like that right there is a tragedy of the commons problem. It's tragedy of the commons problem. It's tragedy of the commons problem. It's very hard for Act the Democrats to be very hard for Act the Democrats to be very hard for Act the Democrats to be noticed. There's a huge cacophony of noticed. There's a huge cacophony of noticed. There's a huge cacophony of voices. The voices that get noticed are voices. The voices that get noticed are voices. The voices that get noticed are extreme. So here's the thing. extreme. So here's the thing. extreme. So here's the thing. You notice them. We are here talking You notice them. We are here talking You notice them. We are here talking about Act the Democrats were joined or about Act the Democrats were joined or about Act the Democrats were joined or to Stephen Miller. to Stephen Miller. to Stephen Miller. >> I can't remember the last time that I >> I can't remember the last time that I >> I can't remember the last time that I talked about Act the Democrats. talked about Act the Democrats. talked about Act the Democrats. >> So they probably just succeeded. >> So they probably just succeeded. >> So they probably just succeeded. >> way to put it. >> way to put it. >> way to put it. >> But it's a tragedy of the commons. Like >> But it's a tragedy of the commons. Like >> But it's a tragedy of the commons. Like Stephen Miller, by the way, a deputy um Stephen Miller, by the way, a deputy um Stephen Miller, by the way, a deputy um chief of staff to the president is chief of staff to the president is chief of staff to the president is tweeting about James Tallarico who tweeting about James Tallarico who tweeting about James Tallarico who Whatever else you want to say about Whatever else you want to say about Whatever else you want to say about Tallarico, an incredibly decent person, Tallarico, an incredibly decent person, Tallarico, an incredibly decent person, an incredibly decent man in politics, an incredibly decent man in politics, an incredibly decent man in politics, who tries very hard to treat people on who tries very hard to treat people on who tries very hard to treat people on both sides with respect. Stephen Miller, both sides with respect. Stephen Miller, both sides with respect. Stephen Miller, deputy chief of staff, his reaction to deputy chief of staff, his reaction to deputy chief of staff, his reaction to Ken Paxton, by the way. It wasn't even Ken Paxton, by the way. It wasn't even Ken Paxton, by the way. It wasn't even like Tallarico won the primary last like Tallarico won the primary last like Tallarico won the primary last night. It was or a couple nights ago, it night. It was or a couple nights ago, it night. It was or a couple nights ago, it was Paxton was Paxton was Paxton was first transgender candidate. So was first transgender candidate. So was first transgender candidate. So again the again the again the You know, I don't want to sit here and You know, I don't want to sit here and You know, I don't want to sit here and just like tut-tut and and chin stroke, just like tut-tut and and chin stroke, just like tut-tut and and chin stroke, but it is a degradation but it is a degradation but it is a degradation of the entire system. of the entire system. of the entire system. >> Sounds so uncool. I can even feel my own >> Sounds so uncool. I can even feel my own >> Sounds so uncool. I can even feel my own sort of cringometer of being out of sort of cringometer of being out of sort of cringometer of being out of touch occurring as we're talking about touch occurring as we're talking about touch occurring as we're talking about it. it. it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like what do you mean you >> Like what do you mean you >> Like what do you mean you both within a couple of years of each both within a couple of years of each both within a couple of years of each other. Are you really going to be the other. Are you really going to be the other. Are you really going to be the fuddy-duddies finger wagging at people fuddy-duddies finger wagging at people fuddy-duddies finger wagging at people these kids on the internet having fun or these kids on the internet having fun or these kids on the internet having fun or whatever? I'm like whatever? I'm like whatever? I'm like I don't know, man. It feels like I don't know, man. It feels like I don't know, man. It feels like extracting from a system that it extracting from a system that it extracting from a system that it shouldn't be. It feels like there's shouldn't be. It feels like there's shouldn't be. It feels like there's something that's going wrong with something that's going wrong with something that's going wrong with regards to that. I guess one of the regards to that. I guess one of the regards to that. I guess one of the other one of the biggest talking points other one of the biggest talking points other one of the biggest talking points that we've had over the last couple of that we've had over the last couple of that we've had over the last couple of years was around what happened in the years was around what happened in the years was around what happened in the 2024 election, especially independent 2024 election, especially independent 2024 election, especially independent media sort of being involved in that. media sort of being involved in that. media sort of being involved in that. 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Do you think if the left had had its own version of Joe Rogan had had its own version of Joe Rogan had had its own version of Joe Rogan that the last election would have really that the last election would have really that the last election would have really changed? changed? changed? >> The election was close enough in the >> The election was close enough in the >> The election was close enough in the battleground states battleground states battleground states that that that I think you end up in a situation where I think you end up in a situation where I think you end up in a situation where you can change any variable and imagine you can change any variable and imagine you can change any variable and imagine moving I don't remember the exact moving I don't remember the exact moving I don't remember the exact number, but something like you would number, but something like you would number, but something like you would have needed I think 150,000 have needed I think 150,000 have needed I think 150,000 >> votes to switch. I mean, those votes >> votes to switch. I mean, those votes >> votes to switch. I mean, those votes would have had to have been correctly uh would have had to have been correctly uh would have had to have been correctly uh like apportioned. like apportioned. like apportioned. >> Yeah. But, it was in you know, just a >> Yeah. But, it was in you know, just a >> Yeah. But, it was in you know, just a handful of states. handful of states. handful of states. So, maybe not just Joe Rogan. Like, I So, maybe not just Joe Rogan. Like, I So, maybe not just Joe Rogan. Like, I would say that the way to think about would say that the way to think about would say that the way to think about this is not a liberal or illiberal Joe this is not a liberal or illiberal Joe this is not a liberal or illiberal Joe Rogan. It's candidates who are Rogan. It's candidates who are Rogan. It's candidates who are comfortable in the kinds of spaces that comfortable in the kinds of spaces that comfortable in the kinds of spaces that we mean when we talk about Rogan. Like, we mean when we talk about Rogan. Like, we mean when we talk about Rogan. Like, the point is not getting like one guy the point is not getting like one guy the point is not getting like one guy who is more on your side. The point is, who is more on your side. The point is, who is more on your side. The point is, you know, Harris and Walls having been you know, Harris and Walls having been you know, Harris and Walls having been everywhere and having been capable of everywhere and having been capable of everywhere and having been capable of talking more effectively to different talking more effectively to different talking more effectively to different kind of of of of person. But But but let kind of of of of person. But But but let kind of of of of person. But But but let me me me pull back on something you said a second pull back on something you said a second pull back on something you said a second ago. ago. ago. Uh Uh Uh I've been thinking a lot about virtue in I've been thinking a lot about virtue in I've been thinking a lot about virtue in politics. politics. politics. And virtue And virtue And virtue I was going to say it's not a word we I was going to say it's not a word we I was going to say it's not a word we use that much, but I actually think use that much, but I actually think use that much, but I actually think particularly in your corners of the blog particularly in your corners of the blog particularly in your corners of the blog of the blogosphere. We were talking of the blogosphere. We were talking of the blogosphere. We were talking about blogs before we started. Of the about blogs before we started. Of the about blogs before we started. Of the podcastosphere. podcastosphere. podcastosphere. >> RIP. >> RIP. >> RIP. >> It is something we talk about. >> It is something we talk about. >> It is something we talk about. And I was just doing a show that'll come And I was just doing a show that'll come And I was just doing a show that'll come out shortly about a bunch of the kind of out shortly about a bunch of the kind of out shortly about a bunch of the kind of more masculinist philosophies on the more masculinist philosophies on the more masculinist philosophies on the right, people like Bronze Age Pervert right, people like Bronze Age Pervert right, people like Bronze Age Pervert and Rad Nationalist and and Rad Nationalist and and Rad Nationalist and And one of the things I was thinking And one of the things I was thinking And one of the things I was thinking about is how much those visions of about is how much those visions of about is how much those visions of masculinity masculinity masculinity have a primitivism to them, right? It's have a primitivism to them, right? It's have a primitivism to them, right? It's this desire to rediscover this desire to rediscover this desire to rediscover a stereotypically testosterone-soaked, a stereotypically testosterone-soaked, a stereotypically testosterone-soaked, much more competitive, much more competitive, much more competitive, dominance-oriented, aggressive, right? dominance-oriented, aggressive, right? dominance-oriented, aggressive, right? There's a view that modern man has been There's a view that modern man has been There's a view that modern man has been warped into and constrained into this warped into and constrained into this warped into and constrained into this soft, cooperative, like against their soft, cooperative, like against their soft, cooperative, like against their own instincts. Okay. own instincts. Okay. own instincts. Okay. The thing that I was noticing how when I The thing that I was noticing how when I The thing that I was noticing how when I actually read what these guys were actually read what these guys were actually read what these guys were writing, writing, writing, the thing that I was noticing was so the thing that I was noticing was so the thing that I was noticing was so absent was absent was absent was the idea of self-mastery and the idea of self-mastery and the idea of self-mastery and self-discipline self-discipline self-discipline as a fundamental dimension not just of as a fundamental dimension not just of as a fundamental dimension not just of like manhood or masculinity, but just of like manhood or masculinity, but just of like manhood or masculinity, but just of humanity. In fact, a lot of these places humanity. In fact, a lot of these places humanity. In fact, a lot of these places seem to take self-discipline and seem to take self-discipline and seem to take self-discipline and self-mastery with the exception maybe of self-mastery with the exception maybe of self-mastery with the exception maybe of like a homosocial weightlifting like a homosocial weightlifting like a homosocial weightlifting component [laughter] as a negative, component [laughter] as a negative, component [laughter] as a negative, right? It was evidence of the way right? It was evidence of the way right? It was evidence of the way modernity had warped us into this modernity had warped us into this modernity had warped us into this attenuated shape attenuated shape attenuated shape that works for, you know, that works for, you know, that works for, you know, modern feminized liberal democracy, modern feminized liberal democracy, modern feminized liberal democracy, right? That's the argument. right? That's the argument. right? That's the argument. And so you see, I think this is And so you see, I think this is And so you see, I think this is particularly true on Trump and you see particularly true on Trump and you see particularly true on Trump and you see it with Stephen Miller. it with Stephen Miller. it with Stephen Miller. This This This gleeful rejection gleeful rejection gleeful rejection of norms of behavior that once sort of of norms of behavior that once sort of of norms of behavior that once sort of reflected, I think, a kind of reflected, I think, a kind of reflected, I think, a kind of self-disciplined. Right? Politicians self-disciplined. Right? Politicians self-disciplined. Right? Politicians don't talk the way Donald Trump talks, don't talk the way Donald Trump talks, don't talk the way Donald Trump talks, right? They are disciplined. They know right? They are disciplined. They know right? They are disciplined. They know not to just unleash on the people they not to just unleash on the people they not to just unleash on the people they don't like in a way that is destructive, don't like in a way that is destructive, don't like in a way that is destructive, most of them. most of them. most of them. And it was this wiping away of that as a And it was this wiping away of that as a And it was this wiping away of that as a kind of show kind of show kind of show of of of that you would not be held back that you would not be held back that you would not be held back by the system as it existed. by the system as it existed. by the system as it existed. And And so there's a message in what And And so there's a message in what And And so there's a message in what Miller is saying, and then if Now you Miller is saying, and then if Now you Miller is saying, and then if Now you see like the Democrats trying to to ape see like the Democrats trying to to ape see like the Democrats trying to to ape it. But what I do think is going to it's it. But what I do think is going to it's it. But what I do think is going to it's going to create I think what it's going to create I think what it's going to create I think what it's already creating already creating already creating is going to be a swing back is going to be a swing back is going to be a swing back to a desire to see political virtue. to a desire to see political virtue. to a desire to see political virtue. To see social virtue demonstrated in in To see social virtue demonstrated in in To see social virtue demonstrated in in leaders. Everything creates its opposite leaders. Everything creates its opposite leaders. Everything creates its opposite in politics, always. in politics, always. in politics, always. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And so >> And so >> And so >> This sort of statesman-like, bit more >> This sort of statesman-like, bit more >> This sort of statesman-like, bit more decorum. decorum. decorum. >> Yeah, it'll have to be a version that >> Yeah, it'll have to be a version that >> Yeah, it'll have to be a version that works for today. works for today. works for today. >> It'll still need to be sexy, got to have >> It'll still need to be sexy, got to have >> It'll still need to be sexy, got to have aura. aura. aura. >> You're going to need to have aura. You >> You're going to need to have aura. You >> You're going to need to have aura. You need to have aura. need to have aura. need to have aura. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> But the O'Rourke, I mean, the reason >> But the O'Rourke, I mean, the reason >> But the O'Rourke, I mean, the reason O'Rourke is dangerous to them, and I'm O'Rourke is dangerous to them, and I'm O'Rourke is dangerous to them, and I'm not saying he's going to win, Texas is a not saying he's going to win, Texas is a not saying he's going to win, Texas is a hard state for a Democrat to win in, hard state for a Democrat to win in, hard state for a Democrat to win in, but the reason O'Rourke popped in the but the reason O'Rourke popped in the but the reason O'Rourke popped in the first place, the reason that he ended up first place, the reason that he ended up first place, the reason that he ended up on Joe Rogan in the first place, is he on Joe Rogan in the first place, is he on Joe Rogan in the first place, is he is able to talk through a kind of is able to talk through a kind of is able to talk through a kind of progressive Christianity in a language progressive Christianity in a language progressive Christianity in a language of morality and virtue that people found of morality and virtue that people found of morality and virtue that people found exciting. exciting. exciting. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And that you didn't really hear from >> And that you didn't really hear from >> And that you didn't really hear from Democrats anymore. And I think he was Democrats anymore. And I think he was Democrats anymore. And I think he was one of the first moments, and he's one of the first moments, and he's one of the first moments, and he's raised more, I think, than any Senate raised more, I think, than any Senate raised more, I think, than any Senate candidate in the country based on this. candidate in the country based on this. candidate in the country based on this. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I think he's one of the first >> And I think he's one of the first >> And I think he's one of the first moments where you really see where the moments where you really see where the moments where you really see where the pendulum is going to swing back to pendulum is going to swing back to pendulum is going to swing back to because I think people are looking because I think people are looking because I think people are looking around, and they're seeing what it looks around, and they're seeing what it looks around, and they're seeing what it looks like when we unleash ourselves uh in a like when we unleash ourselves uh in a like when we unleash ourselves uh in a way that conforms to algorithmic media. way that conforms to algorithmic media. way that conforms to algorithmic media. And I'm not saying everybody dislikes And I'm not saying everybody dislikes And I'm not saying everybody dislikes it. Some people feel real excited by it. it. Some people feel real excited by it. it. Some people feel real excited by it. But I think most people dislike it. Even But I think most people dislike it. Even But I think most people dislike it. Even people I know who are Trump supporters, people I know who are Trump supporters, people I know who are Trump supporters, they don't like the way this all feels. they don't like the way this all feels. they don't like the way this all feels. >> You like it in the way that you like >> You like it in the way that you like >> You like it in the way that you like having a McDonald's, that at the time having a McDonald's, that at the time having a McDonald's, that at the time it's kind of enticing, but afterward you it's kind of enticing, but afterward you it's kind of enticing, but afterward you feel a bit shitty. And if you have too feel a bit shitty. And if you have too feel a bit shitty. And if you have too many of them in a row, you actually many of them in a row, you actually many of them in a row, you actually start to reject the system a little bit. start to reject the system a little bit. start to reject the system a little bit. It's interesting. I was having this It's interesting. I was having this It's interesting. I was having this conversation with Arthur Brooks conversation with Arthur Brooks conversation with Arthur Brooks yesterday, and he was saying, "The yesterday, and he was saying, "The yesterday, and he was saying, "The moment that you break any kind of moment that you break any kind of moment that you break any kind of addictive cycle, the first thing that addictive cycle, the first thing that addictive cycle, the first thing that you have to do, at least following you have to do, at least following you have to do, at least following evidence for a broad range of aggregated evidence for a broad range of aggregated evidence for a broad range of aggregated addictions, is you have to get mad. addictions, is you have to get mad. addictions, is you have to get mad. You have to be angry at the thing. Like, You have to be angry at the thing. Like, You have to be angry at the thing. Like, I'm sick of being at the mercy of this I'm sick of being at the mercy of this I'm sick of being at the mercy of this thing. I'm sick of being at the mercy of thing. I'm sick of being at the mercy of thing. I'm sick of being at the mercy of porn. I'm sick of being at the mercy of porn. I'm sick of being at the mercy of porn. I'm sick of being at the mercy of drugs. I'm sick of being at the mercy of drugs. I'm sick of being at the mercy of drugs. I'm sick of being at the mercy of alcohol. Sick of scrolling on my phone. alcohol. Sick of scrolling on my phone. alcohol. Sick of scrolling on my phone. Getting mad is a really effective first Getting mad is a really effective first Getting mad is a really effective first step. And I wonder at what point like step. And I wonder at what point like step. And I wonder at what point like people just get bored. Like cuz this is people just get bored. Like cuz this is people just get bored. Like cuz this is evolutionary arms race of like evolutionary arms race of like evolutionary arms race of like bullshittery that keeps on happening bullshittery that keeps on happening bullshittery that keeps on happening online. Like, now, if the Democrats online. Like, now, if the Democrats online. Like, now, if the Democrats tweet, "Shut up, you ugly fuck," again, tweet, "Shut up, you ugly fuck," again, tweet, "Shut up, you ugly fuck," again, it gets a tenth as much attention cuz it gets a tenth as much attention cuz it gets a tenth as much attention cuz we've already seen it. we've already seen it. we've already seen it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, unless you're going to continue to >> So, unless you're going to continue to >> So, unless you're going to continue to play that game, okay, well, what's new? play that game, okay, well, what's new? play that game, okay, well, what's new? Well, what's new is the equivalent of a Well, what's new is the equivalent of a Well, what's new is the equivalent of a a a sundress and a cake. Right? You know a a sundress and a cake. Right? You know a a sundress and a cake. Right? You know what I mean? Like, it's something that what I mean? Like, it's something that what I mean? Like, it's something that feels a little bit more kind of feels a little bit more kind of feels a little bit more kind of vestigial. vestigial. vestigial. >> I I feel like there's been a move, and >> I I feel like there's been a move, and >> I I feel like there's been a move, and again, you don't see any of that tweet again, you don't see any of that tweet again, you don't see any of that tweet set where we're we're using as our text set where we're we're using as our text set where we're we're using as our text here. here. here. A rich text, if spare. A rich text, if spare. A rich text, if spare. I already think there's a move towards I already think there's a move towards I already think there's a move towards something sunnier. something sunnier. something sunnier. I mean, if you had to use one word to I mean, if you had to use one word to I mean, if you had to use one word to describe the aesthetic of Momodou describe the aesthetic of Momodou describe the aesthetic of Momodou Ndiaye, it's sunny. Ndiaye, it's sunny. Ndiaye, it's sunny. You can say a lot of other things about You can say a lot of other things about You can say a lot of other things about him, right? And people disagree with him, right? And people disagree with him, right? And people disagree with him, and you know, you everybody can him, and you know, you everybody can him, and you know, you everybody can have their arguments about what he have their arguments about what he have their arguments about what he believes. believes. believes. You never saw that guy without a smile. You never saw that guy without a smile. You never saw that guy without a smile. He didn't I mean, if you ever just He didn't I mean, if you ever just He didn't I mean, if you ever just looked at the Momodou Ndiaye smile, it's looked at the Momodou Ndiaye smile, it's looked at the Momodou Ndiaye smile, it's like Trump had the scowl, even in his like Trump had the scowl, even in his like Trump had the scowl, even in his second presidential portrait. This is second presidential portrait. This is second presidential portrait. This is not me ragging on him. He has a portrait not me ragging on him. He has a portrait not me ragging on him. He has a portrait in which he's scowling. It's a very in which he's scowling. It's a very in which he's scowling. It's a very unusual portrait. It's kind of like unusual portrait. It's kind of like unusual portrait. It's kind of like looking down. looking down. looking down. And Momodou Ndiaye the smile, and I'm And Momodou Ndiaye the smile, and I'm And Momodou Ndiaye the smile, and I'm going to read out of his great piece in going to read out of his great piece in going to read out of his great piece in his Substack The Ink about like the his Substack The Ink about like the his Substack The Ink about like the rhetoric Momodou Ndiaye smile as rhetoric Momodou Ndiaye smile as rhetoric Momodou Ndiaye smile as rhetoric. rhetoric. rhetoric. And Talarico Mom Daddy you start to see And Talarico Mom Daddy you start to see And Talarico Mom Daddy you start to see something new working. something new working. something new working. And of course it will only work for so And of course it will only work for so And of course it will only work for so long and we'll see where it goes. It's long and we'll see where it goes. It's long and we'll see where it goes. It's not the only thing working. But that not the only thing working. But that not the only thing working. But that Stephen Miller the Democrats exchange Stephen Miller the Democrats exchange Stephen Miller the Democrats exchange it sucks, right? Like who who wants to it sucks, right? Like who who wants to it sucks, right? Like who who wants to feel that way? feel that way? feel that way? >> No one. >> No one. >> No one. >> And so that's a it's a way in not a way >> And so that's a it's a way in not a way >> And so that's a it's a way in not a way out. out. out. And I do think the winning move in And I do think the winning move in And I do think the winning move in politics in the next couple years is politics in the next couple years is politics in the next couple years is going to be going to be going to be the way out not the way in. the way out not the way in. the way out not the way in. >> At best it's a sort of gleeful dancing >> At best it's a sort of gleeful dancing >> At best it's a sort of gleeful dancing over somebody else and they've done over somebody else and they've done over somebody else and they've done in the same way as in the same way as in the same way as two bullies fighting against each other two bullies fighting against each other two bullies fighting against each other kind of take a degree of satisfaction kind of take a degree of satisfaction kind of take a degree of satisfaction from having a pop. It's not Yeah, it's from having a pop. It's not Yeah, it's from having a pop. It's not Yeah, it's it's it's not sunny. It's it's it's it's not sunny. It's it's it's it's not sunny. It's it's performing sunniness, right? I care less performing sunniness, right? I care less performing sunniness, right? I care less about what you think of me. Oh no, about what you think of me. Oh no, about what you think of me. Oh no, actually we care even less about what actually we care even less about what actually we care even less about what you think of us than you think that we you think of us than you think that we you think of us than you think that we do. do. do. Yeah, this arms race sucks. I guess Yeah, this arms race sucks. I guess Yeah, this arms race sucks. I guess I'm kind of interested do you think that I'm kind of interested do you think that I'm kind of interested do you think that you you you are at the center of a Democrats civil are at the center of a Democrats civil are at the center of a Democrats civil war at the moment? war at the moment? war at the moment? >> At the center of a civil war? I don't >> At the center of a civil war? I don't >> At the center of a civil war? I don't know. Do you think I am? know. Do you think I am? know. Do you think I am? >> Seems that way on the internet if you >> Seems that way on the internet if you >> Seems that way on the internet if you read the right pieces. There's certainly read the right pieces. There's certainly read the right pieces. There's certainly a an orbiting and I wonder whether it's a an orbiting and I wonder whether it's a an orbiting and I wonder whether it's because so few people are able to talk because so few people are able to talk because so few people are able to talk on many different sides. That might be on many different sides. That might be on many different sides. That might be it. it. it. >> I think the Democratic Party is having a >> I think the Democratic Party is having a >> I think the Democratic Party is having a big debate big debate big debate over what it should be. over what it should be. over what it should be. And I think that the book that Derek And I think that the book that Derek And I think that the book that Derek Thompson I wrote released us here Thompson I wrote released us here Thompson I wrote released us here abundance abundance abundance which it was one of these things. I mean which it was one of these things. I mean which it was one of these things. I mean I've released a book before. I've released a book before. I've released a book before. It It It things catch fire for their own reasons. things catch fire for their own reasons. things catch fire for their own reasons. And abundance became in a way that is And abundance became in a way that is And abundance became in a way that is unremarkable unremarkable unremarkable one of the text that became one of the text that became one of the text that became the thing people used to have an the thing people used to have an the thing people used to have an argument they wanted to have. argument they wanted to have. argument they wanted to have. Which was Which was Which was uh Uh, which is not necessarily the uh Uh, which is not necessarily the uh Uh, which is not necessarily the argument we're actually having in the argument we're actually having in the argument we're actually having in the book, but abundance sort of became at book, but abundance sort of became at book, but abundance sort of became at the center of this war between what I'd the center of this war between what I'd the center of this war between what I'd call the populist wing of the Democratic call the populist wing of the Democratic call the populist wing of the Democratic Party and the liberal wing of the Party and the liberal wing of the Party and the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. Democratic Party. Democratic Party. And what was funny about that fight to And what was funny about that fight to And what was funny about that fight to me, so abundance the book we did, was me, so abundance the book we did, was me, so abundance the book we did, was about the way in which liberalism, about the way in which liberalism, about the way in which liberalism, Democrats [clears throat] of various Democrats [clears throat] of various Democrats [clears throat] of various stripes, left center, stripes, left center, stripes, left center, have made it very hard to build where have made it very hard to build where have made it very hard to build where they govern. And so in places that tend they govern. And so in places that tend they govern. And so in places that tend to be blue, like New York or um uh to be blue, like New York or um uh to be blue, like New York or um uh California, it's been hard to build California, it's been hard to build California, it's been hard to build homes, hard to build clean energy. homes, hard to build clean energy. homes, hard to build clean energy. Texas, where you live, they build just Texas, where you live, they build just Texas, where you live, they build just more homes and more clean energy uh than more homes and more clean energy uh than more homes and more clean energy uh than blue states do. Not because they're blue states do. Not because they're blue states do. Not because they're necessarily more pro affordable housing, necessarily more pro affordable housing, necessarily more pro affordable housing, and definitely not because they're more and definitely not because they're more and definitely not because they're more politically pro clean energy or worried politically pro clean energy or worried politically pro clean energy or worried about climate change. They just have about climate change. They just have about climate change. They just have created a structure in which it is created a structure in which it is created a structure in which it is easier to build things. I've talked to easier to build things. I've talked to easier to build things. I've talked to um climate tech entrepreneurs, not just um climate tech entrepreneurs, not just um climate tech entrepreneurs, not just doing sort of normal green energy, but doing sort of normal green energy, but doing sort of normal green energy, but doing things that are much more on the doing things that are much more on the doing things that are much more on the cost, much bigger projects. cost, much bigger projects. cost, much bigger projects. And their politics are Californian, and And their politics are Californian, and And their politics are Californian, and they're just like, I can get things done they're just like, I can get things done they're just like, I can get things done in Texas and Arizona, and I can't get it in Texas and Arizona, and I can't get it in Texas and Arizona, and I can't get it done here, right? And what what was done here, right? And what what was done here, right? And what what was interesting about the fight that book interesting about the fight that book interesting about the fight that book kicked off then, is the book was very kicked off then, is the book was very kicked off then, is the book was very much embraced by the people it was much embraced by the people it was much embraced by the people it was actually criticizing. So Gavin Newsom actually criticizing. So Gavin Newsom actually criticizing. So Gavin Newsom embraced that book, right? He talks all embraced that book, right? He talks all embraced that book, right? He talks all the time now about we need to be, the time now about we need to be, the time now about we need to be, Democrats need to be a party of Democrats need to be a party of Democrats need to be a party of abundance. Uh he uses another term that abundance. Uh he uses another term that abundance. Uh he uses another term that that I I I have called a liberalism that that I I I have called a liberalism that that I I I have called a liberalism that builds. builds. builds. And And And so did a lot of people from outside of so did a lot of people from outside of so did a lot of people from outside of the party. Obama's talked about the the party. Obama's talked about the the party. Obama's talked about the book, right? The the the part of the book, right? The the the part of the book, right? The the the part of the party that was actually in power that we party that was actually in power that we party that was actually in power that we were criticizing kind of grabbed onto were criticizing kind of grabbed onto were criticizing kind of grabbed onto it. And the part of the party that is it. And the part of the party that is it. And the part of the party that is insurgent insurgent insurgent sort of reacted against that. It's like, sort of reacted against that. It's like, sort of reacted against that. It's like, well, well, well, abundance kind of became for them the abundance kind of became for them the abundance kind of became for them the face of like the Obamaism, you know, the face of like the Obamaism, you know, the face of like the Obamaism, you know, the sort of the Obama side of the party sort of the Obama side of the party sort of the Obama side of the party keeping power. keeping power. keeping power. And and they want sort of a more And and they want sort of a more And and they want sort of a more populist party. populist party. populist party. Here's the thing, I just think most of Here's the thing, I just think most of Here's the thing, I just think most of this fight is fake. Because, you know, this fight is fake. Because, you know, this fight is fake. Because, you know, Zohran Mamdani just this week released a Zohran Mamdani just this week released a Zohran Mamdani just this week released a big housing plan. big housing plan. big housing plan. And it's a housing plan all about making And it's a housing plan all about making And it's a housing plan all about making it easier to build, and all about it easier to build, and all about it easier to build, and all about cutting through bureaucracy and red tape cutting through bureaucracy and red tape cutting through bureaucracy and red tape and making it faster and cheaper and in and making it faster and cheaper and in and making it faster and cheaper and in Los Angeles Nithya Raman Democratic Los Angeles Nithya Raman Democratic Los Angeles Nithya Raman Democratic Socialist running against Socialist running against Socialist running against Karen Bass who's the Democratic mayor Karen Bass who's the Democratic mayor Karen Bass who's the Democratic mayor you know is also running like you you you know is also running like you you you know is also running like you you know taping things in you know overgrown know taping things in you know overgrown know taping things in you know overgrown fields that the LA city is like suing to fields that the LA city is like suing to fields that the LA city is like suing to stop from becoming affordable housing stop from becoming affordable housing stop from becoming affordable housing you know the new Democrats the you know the new Democrats the you know the new Democrats the congressional caucus released a thing congressional caucus released a thing congressional caucus released a thing about how to build more clean energy and about how to build more clean energy and about how to build more clean energy and create clean energy abundance. create clean energy abundance. create clean energy abundance. So one of the hard things for me and So one of the hard things for me and So one of the hard things for me and like judging this debate is that there's like judging this debate is that there's like judging this debate is that there's an online discourse that because of the an online discourse that because of the an online discourse that because of the nature of online discourse becomes very nature of online discourse becomes very nature of online discourse becomes very very factional very factional very factional and it becomes very angry and it becomes very angry and it becomes very angry and people who are people sort of create a fight in it that people sort of create a fight in it that they're used to they're used to they're used to but to me like the whole thing abundance but to me like the whole thing abundance but to me like the whole thing abundance is doing is cross-cutting divisions that is doing is cross-cutting divisions that is doing is cross-cutting divisions that exist not just inside the Democratic exist not just inside the Democratic exist not just inside the Democratic not just inside the Democratic Party but not just inside the Democratic Party but not just inside the Democratic Party but also between Democrats and Republicans also between Democrats and Republicans also between Democrats and Republicans to sort of create new syntheses on to sort of create new syntheses on to sort of create new syntheses on things and so I just don't see the things and so I just don't see the things and so I just don't see the fights that people are scoring on fights that people are scoring on fights that people are scoring on Twitter there as being even the fights Twitter there as being even the fights Twitter there as being even the fights and the difficulties that our ideas and the difficulties that our ideas and the difficulties that our ideas really face because in practice it's really face because in practice it's really face because in practice it's much more about how hard these things much more about how hard these things much more about how hard these things are to get done are to get done are to get done and I also think that there's like a and I also think that there's like a and I also think that there's like a whole technology side of abundance that whole technology side of abundance that whole technology side of abundance that has proven a much much harder climb has proven a much much harder climb has proven a much much harder climb because of AI than it was when we were because of AI than it was when we were because of AI than it was when we were writing that book. So I I'm always like writing that book. So I I'm always like writing that book. So I I'm always like a happy to be a character in various a happy to be a character in various a happy to be a character in various people's discourse fights but I I tend people's discourse fights but I I tend people's discourse fights but I I tend to think that the particular one that to think that the particular one that to think that the particular one that has been you know present here has been you know present here has been you know present here has at this point been pretty belied by has at this point been pretty belied by has at this point been pretty belied by the reality of who's embracing these the reality of who's embracing these the reality of who's embracing these ideas. ideas. ideas. >> Well you're one of the few liberals that >> Well you're one of the few liberals that >> Well you're one of the few liberals that sort of openly sort of openly sort of openly critiquing liberal governance failures. critiquing liberal governance failures. critiquing liberal governance failures. Do you ever feel like you need to walk Do you ever feel like you need to walk Do you ever feel like you need to walk on eggshells a little because there is a on eggshells a little because there is a on eggshells a little because there is a degree of purity spiraling and othering degree of purity spiraling and othering degree of purity spiraling and othering on the left the right seems to be on the left the right seems to be on the left the right seems to be prepared to welcome anybody with prepared to welcome anybody with prepared to welcome anybody with whatever history they've got with open whatever history they've got with open whatever history they've got with open arms. arms. arms. >> Well, unless you say unless you say Joe >> Well, unless you say unless you say Joe >> Well, unless you say unless you say Joe Biden won the 2020 election, and then Biden won the 2020 election, and then Biden won the 2020 election, and then Donald Trump will primary your Donald Trump will primary your Donald Trump will primary your like whole career into oblivion. like whole career into oblivion. like whole career into oblivion. >> That is kind of he who shall not be >> That is kind of he who shall not be >> That is kind of he who shall not be named for for [laughter] joining the named for for [laughter] joining the named for for [laughter] joining the right. That's the Voldemort of the right. That's the Voldemort of the right. That's the Voldemort of the right. That's correct. right. That's correct. right. That's correct. >> So but I I want to say something >> So but I I want to say something >> So but I I want to say something interesting about this cuz this I think interesting about this cuz this I think interesting about this cuz this I think reflects a difference in the two parties reflects a difference in the two parties reflects a difference in the two parties right now. right now. right now. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> What Donald Trump did very effectively >> What Donald Trump did very effectively >> What Donald Trump did very effectively is he collapsed purity on the Republican is he collapsed purity on the Republican is he collapsed purity on the Republican Party down to a single dimensional Party down to a single dimensional Party down to a single dimensional point, which is loyalty to him. point, which is loyalty to him. point, which is loyalty to him. So he's willing to accept a tremendous So he's willing to accept a tremendous So he's willing to accept a tremendous amount of views, amount of views, amount of views, so long as you are loyal to and say nice so long as you are loyal to and say nice so long as you are loyal to and say nice things about him personally. things about him personally. things about him personally. >> There's a single ordinating principle. >> There's a single ordinating principle. >> There's a single ordinating principle. >> Exactly. The left, which does not have >> Exactly. The left, which does not have >> Exactly. The left, which does not have a leader in that respect. a leader in that respect. a leader in that respect. >> plurality of ways that you can get in >> plurality of ways that you can get in >> plurality of ways that you can get in trouble. trouble. trouble. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Whereas this is just a unity of ways >> Whereas this is just a unity of ways >> Whereas this is just a unity of ways that you can get in trouble on the that you can get in trouble on the that you can get in trouble on the right. That's so interesting. right. That's so interesting. right. That's so interesting. >> the right has it's a little bit of like >> the right has it's a little bit of like >> the right has it's a little bit of like the fox and hedgehog thing. [laughter] the fox and hedgehog thing. [laughter] the fox and hedgehog thing. [laughter] So the right has this one big So the right has this one big So the right has this one big >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> thing you have to accept. This one I I >> thing you have to accept. This one I I >> thing you have to accept. This one I I not just lie, right? I had the 2020 not just lie, right? I had the 2020 not just lie, right? I had the 2020 election stuff is a lie. But the the election stuff is a lie. But the the election stuff is a lie. But the the problem they're about to have, the problem they're about to have, the problem they're about to have, the problem they're having right now, is problem they're having right now, is problem they're having right now, is that that that what it means to be loyal to Trump what it means to be loyal to Trump what it means to be loyal to Trump is a more complicated thing than it was is a more complicated thing than it was is a more complicated thing than it was in the 2024 election because he's doing in the 2024 election because he's doing in the 2024 election because he's doing things, right? Like the war in Iran. And things, right? Like the war in Iran. And things, right? Like the war in Iran. And so what it means to be loyal to him is so what it means to be loyal to him is so what it means to be loyal to him is not just you're pro-Trump, but you can not just you're pro-Trump, but you can not just you're pro-Trump, but you can believe whatever on vaccines, you can believe whatever on vaccines, you can believe whatever on vaccines, you can believe whatever on Now you actually believe whatever on Now you actually believe whatever on Now you actually have to as a member of the Republican have to as a member of the Republican have to as a member of the Republican Party, you know, sign on to you can't You you see this happening. And so You you see this happening. And so you've had like very MAGA people like you've had like very MAGA people like you've had like very MAGA people like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Thomas Marjorie Taylor Greene and Thomas Marjorie Taylor Greene and Thomas Massie, Massie, Massie, you know, who 100% were on board with you know, who 100% were on board with you know, who 100% were on board with all kinds of election [ __ ] from all kinds of election [ __ ] from all kinds of election [ __ ] from Trump, but they got pushed out over Trump, but they got pushed out over Trump, but they got pushed out over other things now because they weren't other things now because they weren't other things now because they weren't loyal on loyal on loyal on >> The single ordinating principle has >> The single ordinating principle has >> The single ordinating principle has fractured into fractured into fractured into >> Party the or the maybe I'll call it like >> Party the or the maybe I'll call it like >> Party the or the maybe I'll call it like the broad left. the broad left. the broad left. It It's not like it was 4 years ago. It It's not like it was 4 years ago. It It's not like it was 4 years ago. But it it what it has is an agenda and a But it it what it has is an agenda and a But it it what it has is an agenda and a set of um set of um set of um different factions different factions different factions have a like a platform and an have a like a platform and an have a like a platform and an orientation and a set of ideas you have orientation and a set of ideas you have orientation and a set of ideas you have to be loyal to, right? Do you believe in to be loyal to, right? Do you believe in to be loyal to, right? Do you believe in Medicare for all? Like how do you feel Medicare for all? Like how do you feel Medicare for all? Like how do you feel about billionaires? Or Yeah, how do you about billionaires? Or Yeah, how do you about billionaires? Or Yeah, how do you feel about wokeness if you're sort of feel about wokeness if you're sort of feel about wokeness if you're sort of more in the set, right? more in the set, right? more in the set, right? They're They're trying to create a They're They're trying to create a They're They're trying to create a programmatic um test. programmatic um test. programmatic um test. 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What if we step outside of the more What if we step outside of the more political dimension of this and we talk political dimension of this and we talk political dimension of this and we talk about the cultural left, the people that about the cultural left, the people that about the cultural left, the people that contribute to the discourse online? contribute to the discourse online? contribute to the discourse online? Because at least with that, Because at least with that, Because at least with that, people can be dissenting of Trump, but people can be dissenting of Trump, but people can be dissenting of Trump, but broadly still be seen as part of the broadly still be seen as part of the broadly still be seen as part of the right. I'm not convinced that the same right. I'm not convinced that the same right. I'm not convinced that the same level of level of level of the same amount of ballast is in the the same amount of ballast is in the the same amount of ballast is in the system for people that are on the left. system for people that are on the left. system for people that are on the left. Now, maybe this is declining. I think Now, maybe this is declining. I think Now, maybe this is declining. I think that you're right. It was significantly that you're right. It was significantly that you're right. It was significantly more pure five or six years ago. Um more pure five or six years ago. Um more pure five or six years ago. Um but I'm just interested but I'm just interested but I'm just interested as somebody who seems to be departing or as somebody who seems to be departing or as somebody who seems to be departing or at least criticizing in a manner that I at least criticizing in a manner that I at least criticizing in a manner that I wouldn't have heard five years ago, wouldn't have heard five years ago, wouldn't have heard five years ago, whether that ever plays into the back of whether that ever plays into the back of whether that ever plays into the back of your mind where I'm [ __ ] your mind where I'm [ __ ] your mind where I'm [ __ ] I mean, I'm going to press post on this I mean, I'm going to press post on this I mean, I'm going to press post on this thing, but I know the subsequent nuclear thing, but I know the subsequent nuclear thing, but I know the subsequent nuclear fallout that's going to occur once I do. fallout that's going to occur once I do. fallout that's going to occur once I do. >> I like to think that I have tried to >> I like to think that I have tried to >> I like to think that I have tried to hold this approach to my um politics and hold this approach to my um politics and hold this approach to my um politics and work for a long time. I mean, the thing work for a long time. I mean, the thing work for a long time. I mean, the thing that led to the moment I've had over the that led to the moment I've had over the that led to the moment I've had over the past couple of years was um a sort of past couple of years was um a sort of past couple of years was um a sort of early and and pretty aggressive argument early and and pretty aggressive argument early and and pretty aggressive argument that Biden should step down. And that that Biden should step down. And that that Biden should step down. And that was not a popular thing in the was not a popular thing in the was not a popular thing in the Democratic Party when I made it, and it Democratic Party when I made it, and it Democratic Party when I made it, and it caused problems. So, caused problems. So, caused problems. So, I I have a view that I I have a view that I I have a view that um and by the way, Abundance, which um and by the way, Abundance, which um and by the way, Abundance, which releases last year, I mean, the columns releases last year, I mean, the columns releases last year, I mean, the columns and essays that led to that started in and essays that led to that started in and essays that led to that started in 2021. So, I was writing all this at a at 2021. So, I was writing all this at a at 2021. So, I was writing all this at a at a different time. a different time. a different time. I think you have to be I think you have to be I think you have to be self-critical self-critical self-critical as a party in politics both for two as a party in politics both for two as a party in politics both for two reasons. One is you're probably making reasons. One is you're probably making reasons. One is you're probably making mistakes and and two is that if you mistakes and and two is that if you mistakes and and two is that if you believe in getting things done and believe in getting things done and believe in getting things done and you're failing, you have to try to you're failing, you have to try to you're failing, you have to try to figure out why, whether that getting figure out why, whether that getting figure out why, whether that getting done is winning elections or that done is winning elections or that done is winning elections or that getting done is building homes, whatever getting done is building homes, whatever getting done is building homes, whatever it might be. it might be. it might be. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Um >> Um >> Um I want to But But to take the broader I want to But But to take the broader I want to But But to take the broader thing you're saying cuz I I don't want thing you're saying cuz I I don't want thing you're saying cuz I I don't want to to to present that as too idiosyncratic. present that as too idiosyncratic. present that as too idiosyncratic. I think one, this has all gotten an I think one, this has all gotten an I think one, this has all gotten an easier easier easier um um um in part because I think like the the in part because I think like the the in part because I think like the the weird moment in the platforms has weird moment in the platforms has weird moment in the platforms has fractured. So, here's another theory I fractured. So, here's another theory I fractured. So, here's another theory I have. have. have. Whoever dominates Twitter Whoever dominates Twitter Whoever dominates Twitter pays for it three to four years later. pays for it three to four years later. pays for it three to four years later. And in 2020 And in 2020 And in 2020 progressives dominated Twitter. progressives dominated Twitter. progressives dominated Twitter. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And they convinced themselves of a lot >> And they convinced themselves of a lot >> And they convinced themselves of a lot of kind of wild ideas. of kind of wild ideas. of kind of wild ideas. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And those ideas came and bit them in the >> And those ideas came and bit them in the >> And those ideas came and bit them in the ass in 2024. ass in 2024. ass in 2024. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And Kamala Harris got like really hung >> And Kamala Harris got like really hung >> And Kamala Harris got like really hung out out out on different um on different um on different um ads that got run against her with things ads that got run against her with things ads that got run against her with things she had said years before. she had said years before. she had said years before. Even right now, James Talarico, Even right now, James Talarico, Even right now, James Talarico, the attacks that Ken Paxton and the attacks that Ken Paxton and the attacks that Ken Paxton and Republicans are using against him have Republicans are using against him have Republicans are using against him have to do with things he said like three or to do with things he said like three or to do with things he said like three or four years ago, right? Like God is four years ago, right? Like God is four years ago, right? Like God is non-binary, that kind of thing. non-binary, that kind of thing. non-binary, that kind of thing. So, the thing is then Donald then Elon So, the thing is then Donald then Elon So, the thing is then Donald then Elon Musk bought Twitter. Musk bought Twitter. Musk bought Twitter. Made it X. Made it X. Made it X. Sort of drove a lot of the left off of Sort of drove a lot of the left off of Sort of drove a lot of the left off of it. it. it. Opened up the floodgates to the right on Opened up the floodgates to the right on Opened up the floodgates to the right on it. it. it. And now the right has ended up in a And now the right has ended up in a And now the right has ended up in a somewhat similar place where they have somewhat similar place where they have somewhat similar place where they have gotten like gotten like gotten like attached to Nick Fuentes attached to Nick Fuentes attached to Nick Fuentes and like the more conspiratorial and like the more conspiratorial and like the more conspiratorial incarnation of Tucker Carlson incarnation of Tucker Carlson incarnation of Tucker Carlson and the the sort of like Twitter anon and the the sort of like Twitter anon and the the sort of like Twitter anon world and people are talking themselves world and people are talking themselves world and people are talking themselves into much more wild and conspiratorial into much more wild and conspiratorial into much more wild and conspiratorial things and this is going to hurt them is things and this is going to hurt them is things and this is going to hurt them is my prediction in you know, two or three my prediction in you know, two or three my prediction in you know, two or three years when like the bill on all this years when like the bill on all this years when like the bill on all this comes due, which is all to say that I comes due, which is all to say that I comes due, which is all to say that I think you cannot separate the dynamics think you cannot separate the dynamics think you cannot separate the dynamics we are talking about we are talking about we are talking about from algorithmic social media. from algorithmic social media. from algorithmic social media. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I think that is fundamentally what is >> I think that is fundamentally what is >> I think that is fundamentally what is shaping these fast rise and fast falls shaping these fast rise and fast falls shaping these fast rise and fast falls in coalitional purity in coalitional purity in coalitional purity >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> in um >> in um >> in um kind of extreme ideas taking hold and in kind of extreme ideas taking hold and in kind of extreme ideas taking hold and in a sense where you get so a sense where you get so a sense where you get so consumed consumed consumed in talking to your own side that you in talking to your own side that you in talking to your own side that you lose a sense of where other people lose a sense of where other people lose a sense of where other people really are. really are. really are. And I mean that's most dangerous thing And I mean that's most dangerous thing And I mean that's most dangerous thing in all of this. It's not having some of in all of this. It's not having some of in all of this. It's not having some of these ideas. I mean, I agree by the way these ideas. I mean, I agree by the way these ideas. I mean, I agree by the way with like many of the ideas people like with like many of the ideas people like with like many of the ideas people like now to write as wokeness. now to write as wokeness. now to write as wokeness. The problem is when you don't realize The problem is when you don't realize The problem is when you don't realize you have not done the political work you have not done the political work you have not done the political work to make those ideas legible to others to make those ideas legible to others to make those ideas legible to others or to sort of win enough support that or to sort of win enough support that or to sort of win enough support that you can push other ideas out of the you can push other ideas out of the you can push other ideas out of the marketplace. You you stop instead of marketplace. You you stop instead of marketplace. You you stop instead of doing politics, you're doing posting. doing politics, you're doing posting. doing politics, you're doing posting. And politics is a constant balancing of And politics is a constant balancing of And politics is a constant balancing of disagreement. disagreement. disagreement. Politics is an act of endless pluralism Politics is an act of endless pluralism Politics is an act of endless pluralism in a liberal democracy. in a liberal democracy. in a liberal democracy. And posting is not. Posting is for your And posting is not. Posting is for your And posting is not. Posting is for your side to and get in a lot of energy to side to and get in a lot of energy to side to and get in a lot of energy to hate on the other side. hate on the other side. hate on the other side. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And posting tends to habituate people to >> And posting tends to habituate people to >> And posting tends to habituate people to a very very very bad and very um a very very very bad and very um a very very very bad and very um weak form of politics. weak form of politics. weak form of politics. >> So, you're saying that people sort of >> So, you're saying that people sort of >> So, you're saying that people sort of believe their own hype for a while. That believe their own hype for a while. That believe their own hype for a while. That becomes its own kind of derangement. And becomes its own kind of derangement. And becomes its own kind of derangement. And then at some point in future then at some point in future then at some point in future >> No, I'm I'm saying that in the way we >> No, I'm I'm saying that in the way we >> No, I'm I'm saying that in the way we were talking about the algorithms were talking about the algorithms were talking about the algorithms earlier, people get into these earlier, people get into these earlier, people get into these one-up one-up one-up >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> dynamics to sort of prove their purity. >> dynamics to sort of prove their purity. >> dynamics to sort of prove their purity. So, Mondaire, right? In here in New So, Mondaire, right? In here in New So, Mondaire, right? In here in New York. When he ran for mayor, York. When he ran for mayor, York. When he ran for mayor, he just had to straight-up disown a he just had to straight-up disown a he just had to straight-up disown a bunch of things he had said on Twitter a bunch of things he had said on Twitter a bunch of things he had said on Twitter a couple years ago, right? Like that the couple years ago, right? Like that the couple years ago, right? Like that the NYPD is anti-queer and it and NYPD is anti-queer and it and NYPD is anti-queer and it and a lot of politicos on the on the left a lot of politicos on the on the left a lot of politicos on the on the left are just having to be in a Yeah, 2020 are just having to be in a Yeah, 2020 are just having to be in a Yeah, 2020 was a crazy time. Yeah, like it like I was a crazy time. Yeah, like it like I was a crazy time. Yeah, like it like I said some [ __ ] said some [ __ ] said some [ __ ] >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And >> And >> And that came from being in a online milieu that came from being in a online milieu that came from being in a online milieu where people are getting pushed to like where people are getting pushed to like where people are getting pushed to like see and say stuff that was ever more out see and say stuff that was ever more out see and say stuff that was ever more out of of of the mainstream as a way of proving that the mainstream as a way of proving that the mainstream as a way of proving that they got it. they got it. they got it. >> You're optimizing for the platform. >> You're optimizing for the platform. >> You're optimizing for the platform. >> And and your corner of it. >> And and your corner of it. >> And and your corner of it. >> Correct. Yes, you're optimizing for this >> Correct. Yes, you're optimizing for this >> Correct. Yes, you're optimizing for this very specific echo chamber. You've got very specific echo chamber. You've got very specific echo chamber. You've got this this this arms race of attention and also you're arms race of attention and also you're arms race of attention and also you're trying to do something which garners as trying to do something which garners as trying to do something which garners as much as many eyeballs as possible. much as many eyeballs as possible. much as many eyeballs as possible. Eventually somebody when that dust Eventually somebody when that dust Eventually somebody when that dust settles a little bit gets to look at it settles a little bit gets to look at it settles a little bit gets to look at it with a with a with a clearer set of eyes and go clearer set of eyes and go clearer set of eyes and go What's this? What's this? What's this? What's this thing that you said not that What's this thing that you said not that What's this thing that you said not that long ago? And sometimes it appears in an long ago? And sometimes it appears in an long ago? And sometimes it appears in an ad. ad. ad. >> Or you're now running statewide in Texas >> Or you're now running statewide in Texas >> Or you're now running statewide in Texas or citywide in New York. or citywide in New York. or citywide in New York. And all of a sudden, it just it wasn't And all of a sudden, it just it wasn't And all of a sudden, it just it wasn't for them. for them. for them. You were You were saying something You were You were saying something You were You were saying something to the person you had seen 2 seconds ago to the person you had seen 2 seconds ago to the person you had seen 2 seconds ago >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> on social media, and now it's being >> on social media, and now it's being >> on social media, and now it's being blasted out in an ad running all across blasted out in an ad running all across blasted out in an ad running all across El Paso. El Paso. El Paso. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it wasn't for the median voter in El >> And it wasn't for the median voter in El >> And it wasn't for the median voter in El Paso. Paso. Paso. >> The internet is forever. Do you >> The internet is forever. Do you >> The internet is forever. Do you Do you consider yourself, given the this Do you consider yourself, given the this Do you consider yourself, given the this interesting position and especially with interesting position and especially with interesting position and especially with with the book, where it's put you in with the book, where it's put you in with the book, where it's put you in terms of criticizing liberal governance, terms of criticizing liberal governance, terms of criticizing liberal governance, do you see yourself as further left or do you see yourself as further left or do you see yourself as further left or further right than previously, or are further right than previously, or are further right than previously, or are you just in exactly the same spot? you just in exactly the same spot? you just in exactly the same spot? >> I don't think my politics are that >> I don't think my politics are that >> I don't think my politics are that different. I mean, I see myself as a different. I mean, I see myself as a different. I mean, I see myself as a liberal. And I've been a liberal for a liberal. And I've been a liberal for a liberal. And I've been a liberal for a long time, and like the American long time, and like the American long time, and like the American tradition, it means different things in tradition, it means different things in tradition, it means different things in Europe and other places. Europe and other places. Europe and other places. And I have And I have And I have fairly recognizable liberal goals. I fairly recognizable liberal goals. I fairly recognizable liberal goals. I want universal health care. I want um want universal health care. I want um want universal health care. I want um more like economic egalitarianism. I more like economic egalitarianism. I more like economic egalitarianism. I want people to have just the ability to want people to have just the ability to want people to have just the ability to live a flourishing life. live a flourishing life. live a flourishing life. But in the way that I think it's But in the way that I think it's But in the way that I think it's traditionally been a big part of traditionally been a big part of traditionally been a big part of liberalism, and think about Obama, for liberalism, and think about Obama, for liberalism, and think about Obama, for instance, I believe very strongly that instance, I believe very strongly that instance, I believe very strongly that the work of making a fractious the work of making a fractious the work of making a fractious complex multi-ethnic democracy function complex multi-ethnic democracy function complex multi-ethnic democracy function is honorable important work. And that is honorable important work. And that is honorable important work. And that requires not just policies requires not just policies requires not just policies but certain political virtues and but certain political virtues and but certain political virtues and approaches to politics approaches to politics approaches to politics >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> that >> that >> that keep keep keep conflict from spinning out of being conflict from spinning out of being conflict from spinning out of being constructive constructive constructive and allow it to spin into spaces that and allow it to spin into spaces that and allow it to spin into spaces that are really destructive. are really destructive. are really destructive. >> If you were to design >> If you were to design >> If you were to design an incentive to do the opposite of that, an incentive to do the opposite of that, an incentive to do the opposite of that, it would be social media. it would be social media. it would be social media. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. And so And so And so I I I Yeah, I I think I'm Yeah, I I think I'm Yeah, I I think I'm >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> In some ways I'm probably further left >> In some ways I'm probably further left >> In some ways I'm probably further left than my temperament makes people think than my temperament makes people think than my temperament makes people think in terms of what I believe about things. in terms of what I believe about things. in terms of what I believe about things. Uh, but I also think that policy is not Uh, but I also think that policy is not Uh, but I also think that policy is not really the way people code other really the way people code other really the way people code other people's ideology. people's ideology. people's ideology. Um, Um, Um, you know, what makes you more far left, you know, what makes you more far left, you know, what makes you more far left, right? Is it believing right? Is it believing right? Is it believing in the maximum level of universal health in the maximum level of universal health in the maximum level of universal health care you can get to care you can get to care you can get to or is it your view on climate change? Or or is it your view on climate change? Or or is it your view on climate change? Or is it your view on what level political is it your view on what level political is it your view on what level political compromise is okay? A lot of the places compromise is okay? A lot of the places compromise is okay? A lot of the places where people get really angry at me is I where people get really angry at me is I where people get really angry at me is I am much more open to political am much more open to political am much more open to political compromise and I'm very open to compromise and I'm very open to compromise and I'm very open to uh uh uh Democrats running very different Democrats running very different Democrats running very different candidates in very different places, candidates in very different places, candidates in very different places, including candidates who are much more including candidates who are much more including candidates who are much more conservative than me because I believe conservative than me because I believe conservative than me because I believe disagreement is very real. disagreement is very real. disagreement is very real. And one mistake I think a lot of people And one mistake I think a lot of people And one mistake I think a lot of people make when looking at politics make when looking at politics make when looking at politics is is is they don't really credit how different they don't really credit how different they don't really credit how different people are from them. people are from them. people are from them. And so if you're in a political bubble And so if you're in a political bubble And so if you're in a political bubble in New York City or Austin or Los in New York City or Austin or Los in New York City or Austin or Los Angeles Angeles Angeles what it takes for a Democrat like Joe what it takes for a Democrat like Joe what it takes for a Democrat like Joe Manchin to win statewide in West Manchin to win statewide in West Manchin to win statewide in West Virginia, I don't think it's Virginia, I don't think it's Virginia, I don't think it's conceivable. Do you Like you don't know conceivable. Do you Like you don't know conceivable. Do you Like you don't know anybody like Like you don't know what it anybody like Like you don't know what it anybody like Like you don't know what it means to win working class voters in means to win working class voters in means to win working class voters in West Virginia. He does. West Virginia. He does. West Virginia. He does. He was like the Democratic MVP, right? I He was like the Democratic MVP, right? I He was like the Democratic MVP, right? I don't have Joe Manchin's politics. I don't have Joe Manchin's politics. I don't have Joe Manchin's politics. I find Joe Manchin incredibly find Joe Manchin incredibly find Joe Manchin incredibly uh irksome. And I also understand that uh irksome. And I also understand that uh irksome. And I also understand that his job is not my job. his job is not my job. his job is not my job. And so one of the the the things I'm And so one of the the the things I'm And so one of the the the things I'm One of the things I worry about because One of the things I worry about because One of the things I worry about because I worry about where I worry about where I worry about where this country's politics are going and I this country's politics are going and I this country's politics are going and I am like very deeply opposed to Donald am like very deeply opposed to Donald am like very deeply opposed to Donald Trump and MAGA and like the way the Trump and MAGA and like the way the Trump and MAGA and like the way the politics are work politics are work politics are work is I think it's really important is I think it's really important is I think it's really important Democrats win Iowa. Democrats win Iowa. Democrats win Iowa. I think it's really important they are I think it's really important they are I think it's really important they are competitive in places like Nebraska, competitive in places like Nebraska, competitive in places like Nebraska, which they used to be. which they used to be. which they used to be. Um, you know, in 2010 Democrats held, I Um, you know, in 2010 Democrats held, I Um, you know, in 2010 Democrats held, I believe, both seats in West Virginia, believe, both seats in West Virginia, believe, both seats in West Virginia, right? In the Senate. Like that's right? In the Senate. Like that's right? In the Senate. Like that's unimaginable now. unimaginable now. unimaginable now. And so the the question of what And so the the question of what And so the the question of what what kind of big tent would allow that what kind of big tent would allow that what kind of big tent would allow that where you can have a Zephyr Teachout where you can have a Zephyr Teachout where you can have a Zephyr Teachout here, but you know, Rob Sand who's this here, but you know, Rob Sand who's this here, but you know, Rob Sand who's this more moderate Democrat running statewide more moderate Democrat running statewide more moderate Democrat running statewide for governor in Iowa who's great, he's for governor in Iowa who's great, he's for governor in Iowa who's great, he's running on getting rid of the two-party running on getting rid of the two-party running on getting rid of the two-party system. system. system. Right? He's not running Right? He's not running Right? He's not running as a like a Democrat to appeal to as a like a Democrat to appeal to as a like a Democrat to appeal to liberals in Brooklyn or leftists in liberals in Brooklyn or leftists in liberals in Brooklyn or leftists in Brooklyn for that matter. Brooklyn for that matter. Brooklyn for that matter. He starts every town hall He starts every town hall He starts every town hall with he like has Republicans stand up, with he like has Republicans stand up, with he like has Republicans stand up, he says, "I want everybody to clap for he says, "I want everybody to clap for he says, "I want everybody to clap for the Republicans in this room." The the Republicans in this room." The the Republicans in this room." The Democrats to stand up, everybody clap Democrats to stand up, everybody clap Democrats to stand up, everybody clap for them, the independents, and then he for them, the independents, and then he for them, the independents, and then he has them all do the pledge of allegiance has them all do the pledge of allegiance has them all do the pledge of allegiance or sing the Star Spangled Banner or sing the Star Spangled Banner or sing the Star Spangled Banner together. together. together. And is that my politics exactly? Like is And is that my politics exactly? Like is And is that my politics exactly? Like is that how I would run a rally? Probably that how I would run a rally? Probably that how I would run a rally? Probably not. Would I win statewide in Iowa? I not. Would I win statewide in Iowa? I not. Would I win statewide in Iowa? I sure would like it wouldn't man. sure would like it wouldn't man. sure would like it wouldn't man. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> But Rob Sand might win statewide in >> But Rob Sand might win statewide in >> But Rob Sand might win statewide in Iowa. And Rob Sand is a hero for that. Iowa. And Rob Sand is a hero for that. Iowa. And Rob Sand is a hero for that. Uh and so, you got to believe in things, Uh and so, you got to believe in things, Uh and so, you got to believe in things, but also I do think the question I mean but also I do think the question I mean but also I do think the question I mean I think in the Trump era I take more I think in the Trump era I take more I think in the Trump era I take more seriously than I used to seriously than I used to seriously than I used to that building building the the the stability of our politics was an stability of our politics was an stability of our politics was an incredible achievement. incredible achievement. incredible achievement. And many countries don't have that. And many countries don't have that. And many countries don't have that. And in many countries they had it and it And in many countries they had it and it And in many countries they had it and it was lost. was lost. was lost. And believing that in America And believing that in America And believing that in America we cannot break this thing we cannot break this thing we cannot break this thing is a mistake. is a mistake. is a mistake. And if you do believe we can break this And if you do believe we can break this And if you do believe we can break this thing, then you actually have to think thing, then you actually have to think thing, then you actually have to think about what kinds of politics about what kinds of politics about what kinds of politics bring it back. And that's why I'm not bring it back. And that's why I'm not bring it back. And that's why I'm not excited even if it works attentionally excited even if it works attentionally excited even if it works attentionally about seeing a doom loop of about seeing a doom loop of about seeing a doom loop of vice and venality because even if you vice and venality because even if you vice and venality because even if you can win that way, can win that way, can win that way, you are breaking the thing by doing it. you are breaking the thing by doing it. you are breaking the thing by doing it. And so, the question of how do you win And so, the question of how do you win And so, the question of how do you win virtuously virtuously virtuously is very important to me because I think is very important to me because I think is very important to me because I think like it for all the other things I want like it for all the other things I want like it for all the other things I want to have, to have, to have, you actually need a working peaceful you actually need a working peaceful you actually need a working peaceful politics to get there. politics to get there. politics to get there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Who's your ideal Democratic Party Who's your ideal Democratic Party Who's your ideal Democratic Party candidate? candidate? candidate? >> For 2028? >> For 2028? >> For 2028? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They They don't exist. >> They They don't exist. >> They They don't exist. I mean, I don't think there's a perfect I mean, I don't think there's a perfect I mean, I don't think there's a perfect Democrat for 2028. And to the extent if Democrat for 2028. And to the extent if Democrat for 2028. And to the extent if there is, we don't know them yet because there is, we don't know them yet because there is, we don't know them yet because they've not been under those lights yet. they've not been under those lights yet. they've not been under those lights yet. Uh Uh Uh I think I think I think I am a sort of unreconstructed I am a sort of unreconstructed I am a sort of unreconstructed admirer of Barack Obama. admirer of Barack Obama. admirer of Barack Obama. And if Obama were running today, he And if Obama were running today, he And if Obama were running today, he would have to run differently than he would have to run differently than he would have to run differently than he did then. did then. did then. >> More aura. >> More aura. >> More aura. >> Uh he had a lot of aura then, man. >> Uh he had a lot of aura then, man. >> Uh he had a lot of aura then, man. >> Online aura. >> Online aura. >> Online aura. >> I think if you're running today, he'd >> I think if you're running today, he'd >> I think if you're running today, he'd have more online aura. That's the point, have more online aura. That's the point, have more online aura. That's the point, right? You can't transpose who he is right? You can't transpose who he is right? You can't transpose who he is post-presidentially post-presidentially post-presidentially to now, right? He is a human to now, right? He is a human to now, right? He is a human institution. institution. institution. He's like a like a monument in some He's like a like a monument in some He's like a like a monument in some ways. ways. ways. Um so he's not going to be who he was Um so he's not going to be who he was Um so he's not going to be who he was even when he was running in '08. even when he was running in '08. even when he was running in '08. But I think he did something that's But I think he did something that's But I think he did something that's really hard to do. really hard to do. really hard to do. Which is one, he contained many of the Which is one, he contained many of the Which is one, he contained many of the country's contradictions inside himself. country's contradictions inside himself. country's contradictions inside himself. And was able to make people even who And was able to make people even who And was able to make people even who disagreed with him quite deeply feel disagreed with him quite deeply feel disagreed with him quite deeply feel seen. seen. seen. And he was able to combine two forms of And he was able to combine two forms of And he was able to combine two forms of moral imagination that I think are hard moral imagination that I think are hard moral imagination that I think are hard to combine. Which is one was a sort of to combine. Which is one was a sort of to combine. Which is one was a sort of moral imagination of policy of things moral imagination of policy of things moral imagination of policy of things like universal health care, which he like universal health care, which he like universal health care, which he basically achieved, right? It's like a basically achieved, right? It's like a basically achieved, right? It's like a lot of people have failed on that before lot of people have failed on that before lot of people have failed on that before him. him. him. Um Um Um Could we make Obamacare better? Always, Could we make Obamacare better? Always, Could we make Obamacare better? Always, but Obamacare is no small thing. but Obamacare is no small thing. but Obamacare is no small thing. And the second was a moral imagination And the second was a moral imagination And the second was a moral imagination on politics itself. on politics itself. on politics itself. In a country that had In a country that had In a country that had the kinds of racial divides and legacy the kinds of racial divides and legacy the kinds of racial divides and legacy we have and had we have and had we have and had in a country that in the Bush years felt in a country that in the Bush years felt in a country that in the Bush years felt very divided. very divided. very divided. He made people feel politics could be He made people feel politics could be He made people feel politics could be different. And the tragedy of Obamaism different. And the tragedy of Obamaism different. And the tragedy of Obamaism is that it got worse. is that it got worse. is that it got worse. That he was able actually to pass quite That he was able actually to pass quite That he was able actually to pass quite a lot of the policy he promised. a lot of the policy he promised. a lot of the policy he promised. But he was not able to make politics and But he was not able to make politics and But he was not able to make politics and this country's divisions feel better. In this country's divisions feel better. In this country's divisions feel better. In fact, they felt worse. fact, they felt worse. fact, they felt worse. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And the thing that I think no one has an >> And the thing that I think no one has an >> And the thing that I think no one has an answer to answer to answer to is how to resuscitate that side of his is how to resuscitate that side of his is how to resuscitate that side of his moral imagination in a way that does not moral imagination in a way that does not moral imagination in a way that does not feel naive or hopeless feel naive or hopeless feel naive or hopeless or cliche. or cliche. or cliche. >> If you're trying to go from Joey >> If you're trying to go from Joey >> If you're trying to go from Joey Chestnut to Joey Swoll, the RP strength Chestnut to Joey Swoll, the RP strength Chestnut to Joey Swoll, the RP strength app is the best place to start. I've app is the best place to start. I've app is the best place to start. 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Heading to rpstrength.com/modernwisdom to rpstrength.com/modernwisdom to rpstrength.com/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at and using the code modernwisdom at and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's checkout. That's checkout. That's rpstrength.com/modernwisdom rpstrength.com/modernwisdom rpstrength.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom at checkout. and modernwisdom at checkout. and modernwisdom at checkout. >> Yeah, it's an interesting one to look to >> Yeah, it's an interesting one to look to >> Yeah, it's an interesting one to look to what happens in 2028. You know, it was what happens in 2028. You know, it was what happens in 2028. You know, it was so fascinating to me being in the UK and so fascinating to me being in the UK and so fascinating to me being in the UK and starting to come online with realizing starting to come online with realizing starting to come online with realizing just how how tumultuous America was politically how tumultuous America was politically and then observing that unfold and then and then observing that unfold and then and then observing that unfold and then being starting to be a part of the being starting to be a part of the being starting to be a part of the conversation, I guess, because I started conversation, I guess, because I started conversation, I guess, because I started Modern Wisdom in 2018 and then to roll Modern Wisdom in 2018 and then to roll Modern Wisdom in 2018 and then to roll it forward and to think about what it forward and to think about what it forward and to think about what happens in just two years time, just two happens in just two years time, just two happens in just two years time, just two years from now, kind of blows my mind years from now, kind of blows my mind years from now, kind of blows my mind and uh I don't know I don't know what people I don't know I don't know what people are looking for on either side in 2028 are looking for on either side in 2028 are looking for on either side in 2028 anymore. Do you follow Do you I don't anymore. Do you follow Do you I don't anymore. Do you follow Do you I don't know how deep you are in politics. I know how deep you are in politics. I know how deep you are in politics. I know you've had Bernie and people like know you've had Bernie and people like know you've had Bernie and people like that on the show. that on the show. that on the show. Do you look at the Democrats and think Do you look at the Democrats and think Do you look at the Democrats and think that one? No. No. No. No. No. But I also don't look at the But I also don't look at the But I also don't look at the conservatives and think that one either. conservatives and think that one either. conservatives and think that one either. I mean my basic read of the field for I mean my basic read of the field for I mean my basic read of the field for what it's worth right now is that the what it's worth right now is that the what it's worth right now is that the ones doing the most interesting things ones doing the most interesting things ones doing the most interesting things are are are Gavin Newsom or AOC Gavin Newsom or AOC Gavin Newsom or AOC or Buttigieg and then the big dark horse or Buttigieg and then the big dark horse or Buttigieg and then the big dark horse I think that people should not I think that people should not I think that people should not underestimate right now is Jon Ossoff underestimate right now is Jon Ossoff underestimate right now is Jon Ossoff who is the senator from Georgia who is who is the senator from Georgia who is who is the senator from Georgia who is in a re-election this year. in a re-election this year. in a re-election this year. But when I look at the Democrats those But when I look at the Democrats those But when I look at the Democrats those are the four are the four are the four who I think have figured out attention who I think have figured out attention who I think have figured out attention in this era and one of my views on in this era and one of my views on in this era and one of my views on politics is it attention is its own politics is it attention is its own politics is it attention is its own competency now competency now competency now and that if you are not capable of and that if you are not capable of and that if you are not capable of earning it and wielding it and using it earning it and wielding it and using it earning it and wielding it and using it and breaking through on it yourself and breaking through on it yourself and breaking through on it yourself then you actually cannot compete at the then you actually cannot compete at the then you actually cannot compete at the highest levels. Certainly not right now highest levels. Certainly not right now highest levels. Certainly not right now with the way that the ecosystem says at with the way that the ecosystem says at with the way that the ecosystem says at the moment. And I don't think it'll be the moment. And I don't think it'll be the moment. And I don't think it'll be different in 2020. You got to play the different in 2020. You got to play the different in 2020. You got to play the ball where it lies. And there's also ball where it lies. And there's also ball where it lies. And there's also something about one of the great I think something about one of the great I think something about one of the great I think character mistakes of the Democrats character mistakes of the Democrats character mistakes of the Democrats and and central left parties actually I and and central left parties actually I and and central left parties actually I think you see this with Keir Starmer think you see this with Keir Starmer think you see this with Keir Starmer in a bunch of places in a bunch of places in a bunch of places is people who are too formed by is people who are too formed by is people who are too formed by institutions they're afraid. they're afraid. And it one way I often put this is I And it one way I often put this is I And it one way I often put this is I think right now one of the problems in think right now one of the problems in think right now one of the problems in American politics is Republicans are American politics is Republicans are American politics is Republicans are under formed by institutions and under formed by institutions and under formed by institutions and Democrats are over formed by them. Democrats are over formed by them. Democrats are over formed by them. So Republicans sort of in the Trump era So Republicans sort of in the Trump era So Republicans sort of in the Trump era they're too contemptuous of institutions they're too contemptuous of institutions they're too contemptuous of institutions too contemptuous of institutional too contemptuous of institutional too contemptuous of institutional authority too contemptuous of the norms authority too contemptuous of the norms authority too contemptuous of the norms of institutions and how you act inside of institutions and how you act inside of institutions and how you act inside of a company just rip it all up dog [ __ ] of a company just rip it all up dog [ __ ] of a company just rip it all up dog [ __ ] chainsaw it it's all [ __ ] anyway and chainsaw it it's all [ __ ] anyway and chainsaw it it's all [ __ ] anyway and that's wrong. that's wrong. that's wrong. The problem for Democrats can be that The problem for Democrats can be that The problem for Democrats can be that they can become a party of Tracy Flick they can become a party of Tracy Flick they can become a party of Tracy Flick and they are so and they are so and they are so framed and molded framed and molded framed and molded by like from birth having competed their by like from birth having competed their by like from birth having competed their way, way, way, you know, through every school, you you know, through every school, you you know, through every school, you know, know, know, through every competition, through every through every competition, through every through every competition, through every company, through their politics company, through their politics company, through their politics in a party that is much more in a party that is much more in a party that is much more pro-institutions than Republicans are. pro-institutions than Republicans are. pro-institutions than Republicans are. And people who come through institutions And people who come through institutions And people who come through institutions like that, they often reflect those like that, they often reflect those like that, they often reflect those institutions. They they begin to talk institutions. They they begin to talk institutions. They they begin to talk like them. You can hear the institution like them. You can hear the institution like them. You can hear the institution when they open their mouth. Keir Starmer when they open their mouth. Keir Starmer when they open their mouth. Keir Starmer speaks like he is speaks like he is speaks like he is the government, right? Like you you feel the government, right? Like you you feel the government, right? Like you you feel like he's like got like he feels like a like he's like got like he feels like a like he's like got like he feels like a bureaucracy. bureaucracy. bureaucracy. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And I'm not even saying that as a >> And I'm not even saying that as a >> And I'm not even saying that as a negative on him. At another time that negative on him. At another time that negative on him. At another time that might have been more, you know, a doable might have been more, you know, a doable might have been more, you know, a doable thing. thing. thing. But I don't think that works in this media I don't think that works in this media environment at all. Like you have to environment at all. Like you have to environment at all. Like you have to feel feel feel honest, authentic. You have to like talk honest, authentic. You have to like talk honest, authentic. You have to like talk like a real person. You have to talk like a real person. You have to talk like a real person. You have to talk like a real person. People can like a real person. People can like a real person. People can People can sense that before they can People can sense that before they can People can sense that before they can sense anything else about you. sense anything else about you. sense anything else about you. And so when I see some Democrats who are And so when I see some Democrats who are And so when I see some Democrats who are running, running, running, but they still talk like someone who is but they still talk like someone who is but they still talk like someone who is optimized. And to be fair to them, this optimized. And to be fair to them, this optimized. And to be fair to them, this used to be a thing you optimized for and used to be a thing you optimized for and used to be a thing you optimized for and it worked, to win over like local it worked, to win over like local it worked, to win over like local editorial boards at small-town editorial boards at small-town editorial boards at small-town newspapers. newspapers. newspapers. They were optimized to be somebody that They were optimized to be somebody that They were optimized to be somebody that the editors of newspapers thought seemed the editors of newspapers thought seemed the editors of newspapers thought seemed like a competent, decent person. like a competent, decent person. like a competent, decent person. And it might be and it is, I think, a And it might be and it is, I think, a And it might be and it is, I think, a shame shame shame that that has become some kind of a that that has become some kind of a that that has become some kind of a liability liability liability that you need to have that you need to have that you need to have some edge of wildness to you. some edge of wildness to you. some edge of wildness to you. But it is what it But it is what it But it is what it >> skill set as you rise up through the >> skill set as you rise up through the >> skill set as you rise up through the ranks. Yeah, it's interesting there's ranks. Yeah, it's interesting there's ranks. Yeah, it's interesting there's kind of a common thread here, which is kind of a common thread here, which is kind of a common thread here, which is that that that um you almost get locked into a a um you almost get locked into a a um you almost get locked into a a mode of thinking from a particular mode of thinking from a particular mode of thinking from a particular domain that you're in, whether it be a domain that you're in, whether it be a domain that you're in, whether it be a platform, from a particular niche that platform, from a particular niche that platform, from a particular niche that you're in, geographically, culturally, you're in, geographically, culturally, you're in, geographically, culturally, from a particular time that you were in from a particular time that you were in from a particular time that you were in in your career, and what was useful in your career, and what was useful in your career, and what was useful then, and the inability to be prepared then, and the inability to be prepared then, and the inability to be prepared to update that, and also the potential to update that, and also the potential to update that, and also the potential hypocrisy of having updated that, that hypocrisy of having updated that, that hypocrisy of having updated that, that creates its own challenge, too. So, creates its own challenge, too. So, creates its own challenge, too. So, you're sort of fighting against it. I you're sort of fighting against it. I you're sort of fighting against it. I guess when we're talking about a more guess when we're talking about a more guess when we're talking about a more like active left, like a building left, like active left, like a building left, like active left, like a building left, right? right? right? The word deregulation gets used The word deregulation gets used The word deregulation gets used by Elon Musk, and it also gets used by by Elon Musk, and it also gets used by by Elon Musk, and it also gets used by you. you. you. >> It does. >> It does. >> It does. >> And you clearly don't mean the same >> And you clearly don't mean the same >> And you clearly don't mean the same thing, but the same word doing two jobs thing, but the same word doing two jobs thing, but the same word doing two jobs is a problem in politics, right? It sort is a problem in politics, right? It sort is a problem in politics, right? It sort of lets one team's project of lets one team's project of lets one team's project ride the slipstream of the other, and ride the slipstream of the other, and ride the slipstream of the other, and you end up in this sort of semantic game you end up in this sort of semantic game you end up in this sort of semantic game back and forth. back and forth. back and forth. How do you tell the difference between How do you tell the difference between How do you tell the difference between your kind of deregulation your kind of deregulation your kind of deregulation and Elon's in a and Elon's in a and Elon's in a simple way that you can explain around a simple way that you can explain around a simple way that you can explain around a dinner table? dinner table? dinner table? >> They have different goals. >> They have different goals. >> They have different goals. I mean, what is deregulation? I mean, what is deregulation? I mean, what is deregulation? You are removing rules. You are removing rules. You are removing rules. What is regulation? You're adding rules. What is regulation? You're adding rules. What is regulation? You're adding rules. Is adding rules or removing rules good Is adding rules or removing rules good Is adding rules or removing rules good or bad? or bad? or bad? Well, how the [ __ ] would you answer that Well, how the [ __ ] would you answer that Well, how the [ __ ] would you answer that question? question? question? >> Until the rule is >> Until the rule is >> Until the rule is >> Depends on the rule. >> Depends on the rule. >> Depends on the rule. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so, >> And so, >> And so, look, I consider look, I consider look, I consider Musk Musk Musk to be to be to be a tragedy. a tragedy. a tragedy. This is a guy This is a guy This is a guy who is clearly a genius, who is clearly a genius, who is clearly a genius, who is the most capable industrialist of who is the most capable industrialist of who is the most capable industrialist of our time, our time, our time, who built who built who built those industries those industries those industries on public-private partnerships. on public-private partnerships. on public-private partnerships. Tesla is built Tesla is built Tesla is built on government subsidies, on government on government subsidies, on government on government subsidies, on government tax credits. There is no electric tax credits. There is no electric tax credits. There is no electric vehicle vehicle vehicle market in this country without the huge market in this country without the huge market in this country without the huge amount of money we, and California by amount of money we, and California by amount of money we, and California by the way, in particular, the way, in particular, the way, in particular, pumped into making that market real. pumped into making that market real. pumped into making that market real. Tesla would have gone under without an Tesla would have gone under without an Tesla would have gone under without an Obama-era loan guarantee. SpaceX SpaceX Obama-era loan guarantee. SpaceX SpaceX Obama-era loan guarantee. SpaceX SpaceX is NASA contracts. is NASA contracts. is NASA contracts. And Musk And Musk And Musk at some point, and I I that can like at some point, and I I that can like at some point, and I I that can like basically like chart when it happened basically like chart when it happened basically like chart when it happened because he was sort of a Democrat in because he was sort of a Democrat in because he was sort of a Democrat in semi-good standing. He was like semi-good standing. He was like semi-good standing. He was like pro-Obama, right? He radicalizes. He's pro-Obama, right? He radicalizes. He's pro-Obama, right? He radicalizes. He's online way too much. He gets Twitter online way too much. He gets Twitter online way too much. He gets Twitter brained. Twitter has been brained. Twitter has been brained. Twitter has been bad for no one the way it's been bad for no one the way it's been bad for no one the way it's been specifically bad for the way that guy specifically bad for the way that guy specifically bad for the way that guy thinks. And his information environment thinks. And his information environment thinks. And his information environment is so deeply toxic. is so deeply toxic. is so deeply toxic. And there's a world where he joined the there's a world where he joined the Trump administration Trump administration Trump administration and tried to increase state capacity. and tried to increase state capacity. and tried to increase state capacity. And yes, that might mean chainsawing And yes, that might mean chainsawing And yes, that might mean chainsawing through some of what the government did. through some of what the government did. through some of what the government did. But with the goal of making it possible But with the goal of making it possible But with the goal of making it possible to do more in space. to do more in space. to do more in space. With the goal of making it possible to With the goal of making it possible to With the goal of making it possible to do more effective research into battery do more effective research into battery do more effective research into battery technology. technology. technology. And instead, he cuts completely And instead, he cuts completely And instead, he cuts completely indiscriminately. I have friends indiscriminately. I have friends indiscriminately. I have friends who got who got who got layoff notices that the email read, layoff notices that the email read, layoff notices that the email read, "Dear "Dear "Dear first name last name, first name last name, first name last name, you have been terminated for cause." Which cause? Who was that email to? Which cause? Who was that email to? So, So, So, like Musk's project deregulation is a like Musk's project deregulation is a like Musk's project deregulation is a traditional Republican thing. He didn't traditional Republican thing. He didn't traditional Republican thing. He didn't make it up. But the point is that make it up. But the point is that make it up. But the point is that right now the government often imposes right now the government often imposes right now the government often imposes too many rules on itself. too many rules on itself. too many rules on itself. And that makes it hard for it to do And that makes it hard for it to do And that makes it hard for it to do things. So, if you look at the Mamdani things. So, if you look at the Mamdani things. So, if you look at the Mamdani housing plan that came out this week, housing plan that came out this week, housing plan that came out this week, block by block is what it's called. block by block is what it's called. block by block is what it's called. What he is doing in that plan overall What he is doing in that plan overall What he is doing in that plan overall is he is removing rules. He is is he is removing rules. He is is he is removing rules. He is deregulating deregulating deregulating what is required what is required what is required when New York when New York when New York puts in money to build affordable puts in money to build affordable puts in money to build affordable housing. housing. housing. That in order to build affordable That in order to build affordable That in order to build affordable housing in most jurisdictions, certainly housing in most jurisdictions, certainly housing in most jurisdictions, certainly blue ones in this country, blue ones in this country, blue ones in this country, because you're using public money, because you're using public money, because you're using public money, it triggers a bunch of government rules it triggers a bunch of government rules it triggers a bunch of government rules that make it much more expensive. that make it much more expensive. that make it much more expensive. Because a lot of interests have come up Because a lot of interests have come up Because a lot of interests have come up and you know, won their way into the and you know, won their way into the and you know, won their way into the fight. And so, they've been able to fight. And so, they've been able to fight. And so, they've been able to uh, uh, uh, you know, force higher building you know, force higher building you know, force higher building standards and higher wage standards and standards and higher wage standards and standards and higher wage standards and higher environmental standards. And all higher environmental standards. And all higher environmental standards. And all these things might be good on their own. these things might be good on their own. these things might be good on their own. They really might be. They really might be. They really might be. But, what you've done is make it twice But, what you've done is make it twice But, what you've done is make it twice as expensive or three times as expensive as expensive or three times as expensive as expensive or three times as expensive or four times as expensive or four times as expensive or four times as expensive to build affordable housing as to build to build affordable housing as to build to build affordable housing as to build market-rate housing. market-rate housing. market-rate housing. And so, the taxpayer's getting a shitty And so, the taxpayer's getting a shitty And so, the taxpayer's getting a shitty deal and you're not building enough deal and you're not building enough deal and you're not building enough affordable housing. affordable housing. affordable housing. Uh, there was a story in Washington D.C. Uh, there was a story in Washington D.C. Uh, there was a story in Washington D.C. a couple years ago a couple years ago a couple years ago about how they'd ended up building about how they'd ended up building about how they'd ended up building affordable housing units that were affordable housing units that were affordable housing units that were costing $1.2 million per unit. costing $1.2 million per unit. costing $1.2 million per unit. These are affordable housing units with, These are affordable housing units with, These are affordable housing units with, again, like public and nonprofit again, like public and nonprofit again, like public and nonprofit dollars. Uh, there was one particular dollars. Uh, there was one particular dollars. Uh, there was one particular build where I I'm worried I'll get the build where I I'm worried I'll get the build where I I'm worried I'll get the numbers wrong, um, from memory, but I numbers wrong, um, from memory, but I numbers wrong, um, from memory, but I think it was something like the same think it was something like the same think it was something like the same developer built affordable and developer built affordable and developer built affordable and market-rate next to each other. market-rate next to each other. market-rate next to each other. And the affordable cost something like And the affordable cost something like And the affordable cost something like $800,000 a unit [laughter] $800,000 a unit [laughter] $800,000 a unit [laughter] and the market rate was like $400,000. and the market rate was like $400,000. and the market rate was like $400,000. And like, you just can't achieve the And like, you just can't achieve the And like, you just can't achieve the goal is affordable housing. goal is affordable housing. goal is affordable housing. And so, what I care about, the point of And so, what I care about, the point of And so, what I care about, the point of abundance, the first sentence of it, abundance, the first sentence of it, abundance, the first sentence of it, basically, of the book, basically, of the book, basically, of the book, is what do we need more of? is what do we need more of? is what do we need more of? And how do we get it? And how do we get it? And how do we get it? And so, the thing that separates And so, the thing that separates And so, the thing that separates different people in this debate for me, different people in this debate for me, different people in this debate for me, the the abundance debate, the the the the the abundance debate, the the the the the abundance debate, the the the debate about plenitude, debate about plenitude, debate about plenitude, is first you have to decide what do you is first you have to decide what do you is first you have to decide what do you want more of? Mhm. I want a lot more want more of? Mhm. I want a lot more want more of? Mhm. I want a lot more green energy. green energy. green energy. Donald Trump does not. So, the fact that Donald Trump does not. So, the fact that Donald Trump does not. So, the fact that he is deregulating what it means to he is deregulating what it means to he is deregulating what it means to build like coal or oil in this country build like coal or oil in this country build like coal or oil in this country is not a big abundance win because he's is not a big abundance win because he's is not a big abundance win because he's trying to achieve something that I don't trying to achieve something that I don't trying to achieve something that I don't support. He's actually made it harder to support. He's actually made it harder to support. He's actually made it harder to build wind and solar. So, you can build wind and solar. So, you can build wind and solar. So, you can regulate government to make it harder regulate government to make it harder regulate government to make it harder for government to act. You can for government to act. You can for government to act. You can deregulate it. You can use rules well deregulate it. You can use rules well deregulate it. You can use rules well and poorly. and poorly. and poorly. And when you get your politics And when you get your politics And when you get your politics wrapped up on the axle of having wrapped up on the axle of having wrapped up on the axle of having emotional reaction emotional reaction emotional reaction >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> to the means >> to the means >> to the means to the tools you're using, then you got to the tools you're using, then you got to the tools you're using, then you got a problem. a problem. a problem. The idea that deregulation is owned by The idea that deregulation is owned by The idea that deregulation is owned by the right the right the right or for that matter, that regulation is or for that matter, that regulation is or for that matter, that regulation is owned by the left, it's not true, but owned by the left, it's not true, but owned by the left, it's not true, but it's a way of shutting off your thought. it's a way of shutting off your thought. it's a way of shutting off your thought. The right regulates things all the time. The right regulates things all the time. The right regulates things all the time. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> The left deregulates things. Like it's >> The left deregulates things. Like it's >> The left deregulates things. Like it's just a stupid just a stupid just a stupid >> Mhm. [laughter] >> Mhm. [laughter] >> Mhm. [laughter] Yeah, I know. I agree. Yeah, I know. I agree. Yeah, I know. I agree. >> Stupid way of thinking. >> Stupid way of thinking. >> Stupid way of thinking. >> This proposal for abundance is a lot >> This proposal for abundance is a lot >> This proposal for abundance is a lot about rolling back red tape, but I know about rolling back red tape, but I know about rolling back red tape, but I know a lot of people are concerned about a lot of people are concerned about a lot of people are concerned about what that means for unchecked power of what that means for unchecked power of what that means for unchecked power of potential AI overlords. You know, if potential AI overlords. You know, if potential AI overlords. You know, if you've got a very small number of people you've got a very small number of people you've got a very small number of people who are controlling a massive amount of who are controlling a massive amount of who are controlling a massive amount of influence and a massive amount of the influence and a massive amount of the influence and a massive amount of the economy, economy, economy, how does the rolling back of red tape how does the rolling back of red tape how does the rolling back of red tape help with that solution? help with that solution? help with that solution? >> So, two things. So, what I want to say >> So, two things. So, what I want to say >> So, two things. So, what I want to say abundance is not about rolling back red abundance is not about rolling back red abundance is not about rolling back red tape. tape. tape. There are places like building housing There are places like building housing There are places like building housing in dense blue cities where you probably in dense blue cities where you probably in dense blue cities where you probably do need to roll back what people call do need to roll back what people call do need to roll back what people call red tape. red tape. red tape. But that is But that is But that is that is useful where that is the that is useful where that is the that is useful where that is the problem. problem. problem. On AI, On AI, On AI, I believe we need a lot more AI I believe we need a lot more AI I believe we need a lot more AI regulation. This is why I don't buy the regulation. This is why I don't buy the regulation. This is why I don't buy the sort of deregulation pro-regulation like sort of deregulation pro-regulation like sort of deregulation pro-regulation like dichotomy. There are places I want to dichotomy. There are places I want to dichotomy. There are places I want to regulate more, places I want to regulate regulate more, places I want to regulate regulate more, places I want to regulate less. less. less. Um I think the abundance question on AI Um I think the abundance question on AI Um I think the abundance question on AI is different. is different. is different. I have a lot of concern I have a lot of concern I have a lot of concern about the power concentrating on AI. about the power concentrating on AI. about the power concentrating on AI. I've covered these guys forever. I've I've covered these guys forever. I've I've covered these guys forever. I've had had had Demis and Sam Altman and Demis and Sam Altman and Demis and Sam Altman and Dario all on my show, right? Like I've Dario all on my show, right? Like I've Dario all on my show, right? Like I've I've been in this since GPT-2, I guess. I've been in this since GPT-2, I guess. I've been in this since GPT-2, I guess. And you do not want power concentrating And you do not want power concentrating And you do not want power concentrating with that. I mean, at one point, and with that. I mean, at one point, and with that. I mean, at one point, and some of them will still say that, they some of them will still say that, they some of them will still say that, they don't want power concentrating with don't want power concentrating with don't want power concentrating with them, although in practice they don't them, although in practice they don't them, although in practice they don't always act like that now. always act like that now. always act like that now. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Sam Sam Altman I think in OpenAI seemed >> Sam Sam Altman I think in OpenAI seemed >> Sam Sam Altman I think in OpenAI seemed to be more pro-regulation a couple years to be more pro-regulation a couple years to be more pro-regulation a couple years ago than in practice like the Greg ago than in practice like the Greg ago than in practice like the Greg Brockman as president has helped fund Brockman as president has helped fund Brockman as president has helped fund the super PAC that is dumping money the super PAC that is dumping money the super PAC that is dumping money against candidates who want to regulate against candidates who want to regulate against candidates who want to regulate AI. And so, it's like on the one hand AI. And so, it's like on the one hand AI. And so, it's like on the one hand they'll come to a hearing and say, "We they'll come to a hearing and say, "We they'll come to a hearing and say, "We want to be regulated." Then somebody want to be regulated." Then somebody want to be regulated." Then somebody will run for office saying, "We should will run for office saying, "We should will run for office saying, "We should do some light regulation." It's like, do some light regulation." It's like, do some light regulation." It's like, not you. Not by you, we don't. not you. Not by you, we don't. not you. Not by you, we don't. Um Um Um So, you have like real money and So, you have like real money and So, you have like real money and politics problems. And uh I, by the way, politics problems. And uh I, by the way, politics problems. And uh I, by the way, just as a broad thing, this is not just as a broad thing, this is not just as a broad thing, this is not something we're worried about in something we're worried about in something we're worried about in abundance, but abundance, but abundance, but like I just believe in much, much, much like I just believe in much, much, much like I just believe in much, much, much stronger money and politics regulations. stronger money and politics regulations. stronger money and politics regulations. You should amend the US Constitution to You should amend the US Constitution to You should amend the US Constitution to say, "Money is not speech." say, "Money is not speech." say, "Money is not speech." Money should not be as protected speech Money should not be as protected speech Money should not be as protected speech when spent on politics and make it when spent on politics and make it when spent on politics and make it possible to regulate it. There's an possible to regulate it. There's an possible to regulate it. There's an effort to do that through state houses effort to do that through state houses effort to do that through state houses happening right now. happening right now. happening right now. Um but I think the abundance question on Um but I think the abundance question on Um but I think the abundance question on AI AI AI is at two levels. One is is at two levels. One is is at two levels. One is we think of AI models, right? People we think of AI models, right? People we think of AI models, right? People argue about are they using Gemini or argue about are they using Gemini or argue about are they using Gemini or ChatGPT or Claude. ChatGPT or Claude. ChatGPT or Claude. But AI is, you know, Jensen Huang of But AI is, you know, Jensen Huang of But AI is, you know, Jensen Huang of Nvidia always makes this point. It's Nvidia always makes this point. It's Nvidia always makes this point. It's like a five-layer cake. like a five-layer cake. like a five-layer cake. And there's an energy level, there's a And there's an energy level, there's a And there's an energy level, there's a chips level, there's all this chips level, there's all this chips level, there's all this infrastructure you actually need. infrastructure you actually need. infrastructure you actually need. If we want the US to be If we want the US to be If we want the US to be continue to be kind of AI competitive or continue to be kind of AI competitive or continue to be kind of AI competitive or even AI dominant, you're going to need even AI dominant, you're going to need even AI dominant, you're going to need to get that infrastructure right. to get that infrastructure right. to get that infrastructure right. And uh in order then not make that a And uh in order then not make that a And uh in order then not make that a energetic disaster, you're going to need energetic disaster, you're going to need energetic disaster, you're going to need to use the data center build out to to use the data center build out to to use the data center build out to create a modern grid and create much create a modern grid and create much create a modern grid and create much more of electro state, not a petro more of electro state, not a petro more of electro state, not a petro state, right? Like there's like a whole state, right? Like there's like a whole state, right? Like there's like a whole set of questions that are raised by the set of questions that are raised by the set of questions that are raised by the physical AI build out. But then the physical AI build out. But then the physical AI build out. But then the second thing, I'm actually writing about second thing, I'm actually writing about second thing, I'm actually writing about this right now, this right now, this right now, is we are having so many conversations is we are having so many conversations is we are having so many conversations about what we don't want from AI. about what we don't want from AI. about what we don't want from AI. What do we want from it? What do we want from it? What do we want from it? What is the public agenda for AI? What is the public agenda for AI? What is the public agenda for AI? What does the public What What are the What does the public What What are the What does the public What What are the public goods? Because they're not just public goods? Because they're not just public goods? Because they're not just going to come on their own. going to come on their own. going to come on their own. Right now, if you talk to any Right now, if you talk to any Right now, if you talk to any corporation corporation corporation that is really tooling itself for AI, that is really tooling itself for AI, that is really tooling itself for AI, they are spending huge amounts of money they are spending huge amounts of money they are spending huge amounts of money on compute, on compute, on compute, just buying enough tokens. just buying enough tokens. just buying enough tokens. But they are often restructuring But they are often restructuring But they are often restructuring themselves as an organization in order themselves as an organization in order themselves as an organization in order to become legible to become legible to become legible and make their problems legible to the and make their problems legible to the and make their problems legible to the systems. systems. systems. So, So, So, for AI to be able to solve a problem for for AI to be able to solve a problem for for AI to be able to solve a problem for you, you need a couple of things. One is you, you need a couple of things. One is you, you need a couple of things. One is there needs to be money behind the there needs to be money behind the there needs to be money behind the problem problem problem because if you need a lot of compute to because if you need a lot of compute to because if you need a lot of compute to do it, it is costly even now. do it, it is costly even now. do it, it is costly even now. The second thing is the problem needs to The second thing is the problem needs to The second thing is the problem needs to be legible be legible be legible to the system. So, what I mean by that to the system. So, what I mean by that to the system. So, what I mean by that for instance is for instance is for instance is AlphaFold, which I think is the most AlphaFold, which I think is the most AlphaFold, which I think is the most impressive thing AI has done yet, which impressive thing AI has done yet, which impressive thing AI has done yet, which is the the protein folding um is solving is the the protein folding um is solving is the the protein folding um is solving the protein folding problem. The reason the protein folding problem. The reason the protein folding problem. The reason it was possible to do that was there was it was possible to do that was there was it was possible to do that was there was a thing called the protein data base, a thing called the protein data base, a thing called the protein data base, which had been was arguably the cleanest which had been was arguably the cleanest which had been was arguably the cleanest scientific database in existence. scientific database in existence. scientific database in existence. Certainly one of them. Where people had Certainly one of them. Where people had Certainly one of them. Where people had been keeping been keeping been keeping really high quality data on every single really high quality data on every single really high quality data on every single protein that we had mapped its protein that we had mapped its protein that we had mapped its structure. structure. structure. And that meant there was one place where And that meant there was one place where And that meant there was one place where the data was structured in a way we can the data was structured in a way we can the data was structured in a way we can set the machine learning loose on it and set the machine learning loose on it and set the machine learning loose on it and it could learn the data, begin to it could learn the data, begin to it could learn the data, begin to predict based on the data, and then also predict based on the data, and then also predict based on the data, and then also begin to create synthetic versions of begin to create synthetic versions of begin to create synthetic versions of that data to extend its predictions, and that data to extend its predictions, and that data to extend its predictions, and then be able to test them backwards, and then be able to test them backwards, and then be able to test them backwards, and so on and so forth. Okay. so on and so forth. Okay. so on and so forth. Okay. There are a lot of problems that might There are a lot of problems that might There are a lot of problems that might have that shape, but you will have to have that shape, but you will have to have that shape, but you will have to create the data create the data create the data that the machine learning can work on that the machine learning can work on that the machine learning can work on for them. for them. for them. Uh like and in government, that's often Uh like and in government, that's often Uh like and in government, that's often not been done. not been done. not been done. So, like here's a very simple use case I So, like here's a very simple use case I So, like here's a very simple use case I keep talking to people about. keep talking to people about. keep talking to people about. There's no reason There's no reason There's no reason that the IRS can't have that the IRS can't have that the IRS can't have I mean build it on Claude, build it on I mean build it on Claude, build it on I mean build it on Claude, build it on ChatGPT, build your own. ChatGPT, build your own. ChatGPT, build your own. They could have an LLM that does your They could have an LLM that does your They could have an LLM that does your taxes with you. taxes with you. taxes with you. The IRS knows how much money you make, The IRS knows how much money you make, The IRS knows how much money you make, so they have ground truth there. so they have ground truth there. so they have ground truth there. They know the tax code, they write it a They know the tax code, they write it a They know the tax code, they write it a lot of the time. lot of the time. lot of the time. Uh or at least certainly help in the Uh or at least certainly help in the Uh or at least certainly help in the regulatory uh system to to define it. regulatory uh system to to define it. regulatory uh system to to define it. There's no reason There's no reason There's no reason most people have to pay an accountant. More broadly, you could have an AI that More broadly, you could have an AI that act as a concierge to anything the act as a concierge to anything the act as a concierge to anything the government might be able to do for you government might be able to do for you government might be able to do for you because it knows you, it knows your because it knows you, it knows your because it knows you, it knows your situation, and knows what the government situation, and knows what the government situation, and knows what the government is capable of doing. It's very, very is capable of doing. It's very, very is capable of doing. It's very, very hard to navigate the government right hard to navigate the government right hard to navigate the government right now. now. now. But, you have to make the underlying But, you have to make the underlying But, you have to make the underlying data and system legible data and system legible data and system legible so the AI can learn what it needs to so the AI can learn what it needs to so the AI can learn what it needs to learn. Um drug discovery, energy, learn. Um drug discovery, energy, learn. Um drug discovery, energy, there's a lot of questions like this there's a lot of questions like this there's a lot of questions like this where for instance, on drug discovery, I where for instance, on drug discovery, I where for instance, on drug discovery, I don't know how good AIs will be on drug don't know how good AIs will be on drug don't know how good AIs will be on drug discovery. I've talked to different discovery. I've talked to different discovery. I've talked to different people who disagree on it. But, if you people who disagree on it. But, if you people who disagree on it. But, if you look at what AIs are good at, like did look at what AIs are good at, like did look at what AIs are good at, like did you follow the um the solving of this you follow the um the solving of this you follow the um the solving of this Erdos theorem? Erdos theorem? Erdos theorem? >> Yes. Yes, I did. >> Yes. Yes, I did. >> Yes. Yes, I did. >> Okay. So, I talked to some >> Okay. So, I talked to some >> Okay. So, I talked to some mathematicians about this. My dad's mathematicians about this. My dad's mathematicians about this. My dad's actually a mathematician. I haven't actually a mathematician. I haven't actually a mathematician. I haven't talked to him about it yet, I should. talked to him about it yet, I should. talked to him about it yet, I should. Uh but, this particular theorem, what it Uh but, this particular theorem, what it Uh but, this particular theorem, what it was able to do was sort of two things. was able to do was sort of two things. was able to do was sort of two things. What it was able to do was come It It What it was able to do was come It It What it was able to do was come It It knew kind of everything about knew kind of everything about knew kind of everything about mathematics. So, it was able to combine mathematics. So, it was able to combine mathematics. So, it was able to combine approaches from fields that were not approaches from fields that were not approaches from fields that were not primarily thought to be useful in this primarily thought to be useful in this primarily thought to be useful in this particular theorem. But, there was one particular theorem. But, there was one particular theorem. But, there was one mathematician who was like, "Oh, I mathematician who was like, "Oh, I mathematician who was like, "Oh, I thought about doing this, but it was thought about doing this, but it was thought about doing this, but it was super labor intensive, so I just didn't super labor intensive, so I just didn't super labor intensive, so I just didn't bother." bother." bother." So, it also was able to be tireless in So, it also was able to be tireless in So, it also was able to be tireless in doing that. doing that. doing that. It's It did not do, I think, what you It's It did not do, I think, what you It's It did not do, I think, what you would call like truly new groundbreaking would call like truly new groundbreaking would call like truly new groundbreaking mathematics. It didn't like invent a mathematics. It didn't like invent a mathematics. It didn't like invent a whole new field here. whole new field here. whole new field here. It did something very clever and very It did something very clever and very It did something very clever and very labor intensive, and that is how a lot labor intensive, and that is how a lot labor intensive, and that is how a lot of advances happen. of advances happen. of advances happen. >> Synthesis plus hard work. >> Synthesis plus hard work. >> Synthesis plus hard work. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. So, So, So, think about what's called orphan think about what's called orphan think about what's called orphan diseases. diseases. diseases. These are diseases, my wife actually has These are diseases, my wife actually has These are diseases, my wife actually has one of them, that are quite rare. one of them, that are quite rare. one of them, that are quite rare. So, there isn't a huge amount of money So, there isn't a huge amount of money So, there isn't a huge amount of money in solving them. in solving them. in solving them. And that means, unlike say something And that means, unlike say something And that means, unlike say something like diabetes, where there is just a like diabetes, where there is just a like diabetes, where there is just a functionally endless number of drug functionally endless number of drug functionally endless number of drug researchers working on diabetes drugs, researchers working on diabetes drugs, researchers working on diabetes drugs, and a huge amount of money behind it, and a huge amount of money behind it, and a huge amount of money behind it, and like the best people in the field, and like the best people in the field, and like the best people in the field, on these things, you don't have that. on these things, you don't have that. on these things, you don't have that. So, that's a great place where being So, that's a great place where being So, that's a great place where being able to have a lot of compute, and then able to have a lot of compute, and then able to have a lot of compute, and then the federal government saying, "If you the federal government saying, "If you the federal government saying, "If you invent this thing invent this thing invent this thing This is basically what they did with This is basically what they did with This is basically what they did with Operation Warp Speed, right? We said, Operation Warp Speed, right? We said, Operation Warp Speed, right? We said, "If you invent this thing, we will buy "If you invent this thing, we will buy "If you invent this thing, we will buy it." it." it." And then we will hand it out at low And then we will hand it out at low And then we will hand it out at low cost. Right? That's how they made the cost. Right? That's how they made the cost. Right? That's how they made the COVID vaccines. You could do that across COVID vaccines. You could do that across COVID vaccines. You could do that across a huge number of diseases and say, "If a huge number of diseases and say, "If a huge number of diseases and say, "If you're able to solve any of these, you're able to solve any of these, you're able to solve any of these, here's what we will give you." here's what we will give you." here's what we will give you." Like, it is worth it to us, the public, Like, it is worth it to us, the public, Like, it is worth it to us, the public, to have cures here and we'll make those to have cures here and we'll make those to have cures here and we'll make those cures cheap. cures cheap. cures cheap. Um and we'll put work into making the Um and we'll put work into making the Um and we'll put work into making the regulatory system amenable to this. They regulatory system amenable to this. They regulatory system amenable to this. They also did that in Warp Speed. We'll put also did that in Warp Speed. We'll put also did that in Warp Speed. We'll put in work to try and to like create better in work to try and to like create better in work to try and to like create better databases. Like, we'll clean things up databases. Like, we'll clean things up databases. Like, we'll clean things up for you, but we will create a prize for you, but we will create a prize for you, but we will create a prize system, an advanced market commitment system, an advanced market commitment system, an advanced market commitment system. What do we want AI to solve? system. What do we want AI to solve? system. What do we want AI to solve? Because right now the private market is Because right now the private market is Because right now the private market is putting a lot of money into that putting a lot of money into that putting a lot of money into that question. question. question. But the public sector is only thinking But the public sector is only thinking But the public sector is only thinking about what it wants to prevent AI from about what it wants to prevent AI from about what it wants to prevent AI from doing, which is important. I'm a big doing, which is important. I'm a big doing, which is important. I'm a big believer in AI harms. I've been talking believer in AI harms. I've been talking believer in AI harms. I've been talking about existential risk for years. about existential risk for years. about existential risk for years. But you also need a theory of AI goods. But you also need a theory of AI goods. But you also need a theory of AI goods. And right now we don't have one. And right now we don't have one. 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I had Nick Bostrom on the show and the show and the show and Superintelligence 10 more more than 10 Superintelligence 10 more more than 10 Superintelligence 10 more more than 10 years ago now 2014 15 something like years ago now 2014 15 something like years ago now 2014 15 something like that when that came out was kind of my that when that came out was kind of my that when that came out was kind of my introduction to holy [ __ ] like there are introduction to holy [ __ ] like there are introduction to holy [ __ ] like there are a lot of ways that this could go very a lot of ways that this could go very a lot of ways that this could go very very wrong the X risk of X risks very wrong the X risk of X risks very wrong the X risk of X risks >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> and then >> and then >> and then his new book was basically okay what his new book was basically okay what his new book was basically okay what happens if this goes right and even on happens if this goes right and even on happens if this goes right and even on the path to it going right the path to it going right the path to it going right there were tons of different ways that there were tons of different ways that there were tons of different ways that it could go wrong. It is it is it could go wrong. It is it is it could go wrong. It is it is kind of mind-blowing to me that there is kind of mind-blowing to me that there is kind of mind-blowing to me that there is any time being spent on anything that any time being spent on anything that any time being spent on anything that isn't AI safety at the moment uh you isn't AI safety at the moment uh you isn't AI safety at the moment uh you know I'm aware climate change something know I'm aware climate change something know I'm aware climate change something that we need to keep an eye on. It's not that we need to keep an eye on. It's not that we need to keep an eye on. It's not going to happen within the next decade. going to happen within the next decade. going to happen within the next decade. Uh birth rate decline something that Uh birth rate decline something that Uh birth rate decline something that I've talked a lot about on the show too. I've talked a lot about on the show too. I've talked a lot about on the show too. I think you know that's going to happen I think you know that's going to happen I think you know that's going to happen more quickly than climate change is but more quickly than climate change is but more quickly than climate change is but still not on the timelines that we're still not on the timelines that we're still not on the timelines that we're talking about here. I'm like talking about here. I'm like talking about here. I'm like I you see uh Tristan Harris's new thing I you see uh Tristan Harris's new thing I you see uh Tristan Harris's new thing the AI doc the AI doc the AI doc >> I haven't seen the doc but I know >> I haven't seen the doc but I know >> I haven't seen the doc but I know Tristan. Tristan. Tristan. >> Uh dude you it's really really good. >> Uh dude you it's really really good. >> Uh dude you it's really really good. It's really really interesting. It's really really interesting. It's really really interesting. >> come as a person who was in that world >> come as a person who was in that world >> come as a person who was in that world for a long time for a long time for a long time I've come to a probably slightly I've come to a probably slightly I've come to a probably slightly different view on the right way to different view on the right way to different view on the right way to approach AI. approach AI. approach AI. >> You going to give me a white pill? I >> You going to give me a white pill? I >> You going to give me a white pill? I really need one. really need one. really need one. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> What would a white pill be? I never know >> What would a white pill be? I never know >> What would a white pill be? I never know the pills anymore there too many of the pills anymore there too many of the pills anymore there too many of them. them. them. >> Hope. >> Hope. >> Hope. >> Hope. No look I I >> Hope. No look I I >> Hope. No look I I >> You the >> You the >> You the You cannot solve a problem whose shape You cannot solve a problem whose shape You cannot solve a problem whose shape you do not know. you do not know. you do not know. You can't. You can't. You can't. So it's very it's good to talk about AI So it's very it's good to talk about AI So it's very it's good to talk about AI safety. We should be pumping money into safety. We should be pumping money into safety. We should be pumping money into say mechanistic interpretability. We say mechanistic interpretability. We say mechanistic interpretability. We have made big strides on have made big strides on have made big strides on interpretability. Shout out to Chris Ola interpretability. Shout out to Chris Ola interpretability. Shout out to Chris Ola at Anthropic who's been a hero in this at Anthropic who's been a hero in this at Anthropic who's been a hero in this and is now hanging out with the Pope I and is now hanging out with the Pope I and is now hanging out with the Pope I guess so guess so guess so >> Apparently yeah. >> Apparently yeah. >> Apparently yeah. >> good thing to see good things happen to >> good thing to see good things happen to >> good thing to see good things happen to good people. good people. good people. Um Um Um we should be trying to understand these we should be trying to understand these we should be trying to understand these systems. systems. systems. But so much of the AI conversation But so much of the AI conversation But so much of the AI conversation the mind is attracted the mind is attracted the mind is attracted to these speculative scenarios mass to these speculative scenarios mass to these speculative scenarios mass automation where there are no more jobs automation where there are no more jobs automation where there are no more jobs >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Um >> Um >> Um recursive superintelligence recursive superintelligence recursive superintelligence self-improving superintelligence that self-improving superintelligence that self-improving superintelligence that subset of our control like overnight. subset of our control like overnight. subset of our control like overnight. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Here's the deal. If we create >> Here's the deal. If we create >> Here's the deal. If we create recursive superintelligence that subset recursive superintelligence that subset recursive superintelligence that subset of our control overnight, which is sort of our control overnight, which is sort of our control overnight, which is sort of how like the AI 2027 scenario works, of how like the AI 2027 scenario works, of how like the AI 2027 scenario works, we better just hope for the best cuz I we better just hope for the best cuz I we better just hope for the best cuz I think we are kind of [ __ ] in that think we are kind of [ __ ] in that think we are kind of [ __ ] in that scenario. I don't think it will happen scenario. I don't think it will happen scenario. I don't think it will happen like that or that quickly. like that or that quickly. like that or that quickly. But But But >> we want as good interpretability as we >> we want as good interpretability as we >> we want as good interpretability as we can possibly have. But here But the can possibly have. But here But the can possibly have. But here But the other thing we want is to be in constant other thing we want is to be in constant other thing we want is to be in constant work on regulating the existing nature work on regulating the existing nature work on regulating the existing nature of these systems and at their frontier of these systems and at their frontier of these systems and at their frontier and testing the systems and working on and testing the systems and working on and testing the systems and working on them constantly because them constantly because them constantly because in the same way that the AI companies, in the same way that the AI companies, in the same way that the AI companies, the ones who are founded on the theory the ones who are founded on the theory the ones who are founded on the theory of safety like OpenAI which of safety like OpenAI which of safety like OpenAI which and Anthropic were like, "Well, we can't and Anthropic were like, "Well, we can't and Anthropic were like, "Well, we can't make it safe unless we build it." make it safe unless we build it." make it safe unless we build it." You cannot figure out how to regulate it You cannot figure out how to regulate it You cannot figure out how to regulate it unless you regulate it. unless you regulate it. unless you regulate it. Both for good and for bad. And so my Both for good and for bad. And so my Both for good and for bad. And so my view is that the political system needs view is that the political system needs view is that the political system needs to get in the game to get in the game to get in the game on the system that exists right now on the system that exists right now on the system that exists right now and not endlessly debate a speculative and not endlessly debate a speculative and not endlessly debate a speculative scenario that it is not going to be able scenario that it is not going to be able scenario that it is not going to be able to respond to until you're there. to respond to until you're there. to respond to until you're there. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> That is not how politics works. It's not >> That is not how politics works. It's not >> That is not how politics works. It's not how like anything we do works. So yes, how like anything we do works. So yes, how like anything we do works. So yes, like that does imply a certain amount of like that does imply a certain amount of like that does imply a certain amount of pessimism if we end up in the pessimism if we end up in the pessimism if we end up in the extraordinary fast takeoff scenario. I extraordinary fast takeoff scenario. I extraordinary fast takeoff scenario. I don't think we're in the extraordinary don't think we're in the extraordinary don't think we're in the extraordinary fast takeoff scenario. And just by the fast takeoff scenario. And just by the fast takeoff scenario. And just by the way, I have always thought and have way, I have always thought and have way, I have always thought and have always had this argument with my always had this argument with my always had this argument with my effective altruist friends and actually effective altruist friends and actually effective altruist friends and actually Dwarkesh Patel who's like a great AI Dwarkesh Patel who's like a great AI Dwarkesh Patel who's like a great AI podcaster just sent out a like a little podcaster just sent out a like a little podcaster just sent out a like a little Substack making the same point. The capability to wield power is more The capability to wield power is more than intelligence, a lot more. than intelligence, a lot more. than intelligence, a lot more. And so the world is full of friction. And so the world is full of friction. And so the world is full of friction. And the superintelligence scenario has And the superintelligence scenario has And the superintelligence scenario has always had this dynamic where it isn't always had this dynamic where it isn't always had this dynamic where it isn't just like the thing becomes recursive just like the thing becomes recursive just like the thing becomes recursive improving and super powerful and super improving and super powerful and super improving and super powerful and super but it also never makes a mistake but it also never makes a mistake but it also never makes a mistake >> Yep. on its way to >> Yep. on its way to >> Yep. on its way to taking over a world it doesn't taking over a world it doesn't taking over a world it doesn't understand. understand. understand. And And And have you ever dealt with smart people? have you ever dealt with smart people? have you ever dealt with smart people? Like is Donald Trump the smartest person Like is Donald Trump the smartest person Like is Donald Trump the smartest person in the world? No, he's got a like in the world? No, he's got a like in the world? No, he's got a like incredible animalistic instinct for incredible animalistic instinct for incredible animalistic instinct for power and other people's weakness and power and other people's weakness and power and other people's weakness and he's made a ton of mistakes. he's made a ton of mistakes. he's made a ton of mistakes. And you know, Dorcas in his piece is And you know, Dorcas in his piece is And you know, Dorcas in his piece is like maybe Stalin is a person we're like maybe Stalin is a person we're like maybe Stalin is a person we're talking about here, but Stalin also is talking about here, but Stalin also is talking about here, but Stalin also is not like the world's greatest genius. I not like the world's greatest genius. I not like the world's greatest genius. I think there's like a real mistake being think there's like a real mistake being think there's like a real mistake being made on how easy it is to translate made on how easy it is to translate made on how easy it is to translate intelligence and information into power. intelligence and information into power. intelligence and information into power. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I am just skeptical. Like again, we >> And I am just skeptical. Like again, we >> And I am just skeptical. Like again, we can all come up with a sci-fi scenario, can all come up with a sci-fi scenario, can all come up with a sci-fi scenario, but but but I can't forever argue against the I can't forever argue against the I can't forever argue against the absolute worst absolute worst absolute worst thought experiment. You can like thought experiment. You can like thought experiment. You can like like then we're just in a world like like then we're just in a world like like then we're just in a world like yeah, if all we're dealing with here yeah, if all we're dealing with here yeah, if all we're dealing with here is is is an endless effort for you to come up an endless effort for you to come up an endless effort for you to come up with thought experiments that the with thought experiments that the with thought experiments that the regulators can't match, you will regulators can't match, you will regulators can't match, you will outmatch the regulators very quickly. outmatch the regulators very quickly. outmatch the regulators very quickly. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Which is why the regulators should be >> Which is why the regulators should be >> Which is why the regulators should be increasing their competency by actually increasing their competency by actually increasing their competency by actually dealing with AI in the present moment. dealing with AI in the present moment. dealing with AI in the present moment. You get better at things by doing them. You get better at things by doing them. You get better at things by doing them. >> So you're saying that the most dangerous >> So you're saying that the most dangerous >> So you're saying that the most dangerous AI isn't the smartest one, it's the AI isn't the smartest one, it's the AI isn't the smartest one, it's the canniest one. canniest one. canniest one. >> That I I think that's true, but I'm I'm >> That I I think that's true, but I'm I'm >> That I I think that's true, but I'm I'm saying that the saying that the saying that the AI safety debate AI safety debate AI safety debate has been caught in thinking about the has been caught in thinking about the has been caught in thinking about the future for too long and not in the future for too long and not in the future for too long and not in the present. present. present. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so the thing to do is to figure out >> And so the thing to do is to figure out >> And so the thing to do is to figure out how to take some of these fears, which I how to take some of these fears, which I how to take some of these fears, which I take as serious. I do not I'm not take as serious. I do not I'm not take as serious. I do not I'm not somebody who's dismissive of them. Um I somebody who's dismissive of them. Um I somebody who's dismissive of them. Um I have a pee doom sitting in the back of have a pee doom sitting in the back of have a pee doom sitting in the back of my head. But you have to take them and my head. But you have to take them and my head. But you have to take them and do something in the now because now do something in the now because now do something in the now because now we're at the point where AI is here. For we're at the point where AI is here. For we're at the point where AI is here. For a long time there was nothing really to a long time there was nothing really to a long time there was nothing really to do do do because AI was speculative, right? You because AI was speculative, right? You because AI was speculative, right? You could [snorts] try to be running your could [snorts] try to be running your could [snorts] try to be running your experiments in these labs, but that's experiments in these labs, but that's experiments in these labs, but that's all you can do. Now the thing is here. all you can do. Now the thing is here. all you can do. Now the thing is here. We actually have quite powerful AIs are We actually have quite powerful AIs are We actually have quite powerful AIs are getting more powerful all the time. getting more powerful all the time. getting more powerful all the time. Like Congress Like Congress Like Congress like we need to probably build more like we need to probably build more like we need to probably build more capable institutions um that actually capable institutions um that actually capable institutions um that actually like have expertise on regulating it and like have expertise on regulating it and like have expertise on regulating it and are able to like hire some of the best are able to like hire some of the best are able to like hire some of the best people because the market for AI people because the market for AI people because the market for AI researchers researchers researchers is uh more expensive than the current is uh more expensive than the current is uh more expensive than the current civil service rules we have for hiring civil service rules we have for hiring civil service rules we have for hiring really make possible to compete in. really make possible to compete in. really make possible to compete in. And you have to like be getting your And you have to like be getting your And you have to like be getting your hands dirty and trying to like make what hands dirty and trying to like make what hands dirty and trying to like make what we have work well and also be like we have work well and also be like we have work well and also be like trying to create the goods that can give trying to create the goods that can give trying to create the goods that can give it a direction that is safer. it a direction that is safer. it a direction that is safer. >> Well, think about who was involved in >> Well, think about who was involved in >> Well, think about who was involved in the conversation from 2015 to 2020-ish. Philosophers. Philosophers. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> of philosophers. And if you watch the >> of philosophers. And if you watch the >> of philosophers. And if you watch the new AI doc, it's math grad, computer new AI doc, it's math grad, computer new AI doc, it's math grad, computer science, programmer, futurist, science, programmer, futurist, science, programmer, futurist, technologist. It's moving more, but technologist. It's moving more, but technologist. It's moving more, but you're saying this goes even beyond that you're saying this goes even beyond that you're saying this goes even beyond that to people who are to people who are to people who are policy makers. Like we need to bring policy makers. Like we need to bring policy makers. Like we need to bring those sorts of people in to actually get those sorts of people in to actually get those sorts of people in to actually get involved in this too. So, yeah, it's involved in this too. So, yeah, it's involved in this too. So, yeah, it's gone from being as gone from being as gone from being as hypothetical and theoretical as possible hypothetical and theoretical as possible hypothetical and theoretical as possible to now something where the rubber's to now something where the rubber's to now something where the rubber's really met the road. really met the road. really met the road. >> like my my view on this is not that I am >> like my my view on this is not that I am >> like my my view on this is not that I am dismissive dismissive dismissive of the possibility of future AIs about of the possibility of future AIs about of the possibility of future AIs about our control. our control. our control. Or frankly even, although I am more Or frankly even, although I am more Or frankly even, although I am more skeptical of this, the possibility of skeptical of this, the possibility of skeptical of this, the possibility of mass automation. mass automation. mass automation. What I am saying is it it is long past What I am saying is it it is long past What I am saying is it it is long past time time time to start working on the systems that we to start working on the systems that we to start working on the systems that we have now as have now as have now as regulators and stop debating a regulators and stop debating a regulators and stop debating a hypothetical. You do not have a way to hypothetical. You do not have a way to hypothetical. You do not have a way to stop the hypothetical. stop the hypothetical. stop the hypothetical. Like maybe like have you read Eliezer Like maybe like have you read Eliezer Like maybe like have you read Eliezer Yudkowsky's book? Yudkowsky's book? Yudkowsky's book? >> Yes. I had him on the show. >> Yes. I had him on the show. >> Yes. I had him on the show. >> The argument as did I. >> The argument as did I. >> The argument as did I. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The argument is shut it all down. >> The argument is shut it all down. >> The argument is shut it all down. That's where it goes. That's where it goes. That's where it goes. And for better and maybe for much worse, And for better and maybe for much worse, And for better and maybe for much worse, maybe he's right. I mean, his view is maybe he's right. I mean, his view is maybe he's right. I mean, his view is 98% if we create superintelligence, 98% if we create superintelligence, 98% if we create superintelligence, we're [ __ ] we're [ __ ] we're [ __ ] But we're not going to shut it all down. But we're not going to shut it all down. But we're not going to shut it all down. And so, the question is given what we And so, the question is given what we And so, the question is given what we have and where we are, have and where we are, have and where we are, like start actually like start actually like start actually bringing the system bringing the system bringing the system and the systems under democratic and the systems under democratic and the systems under democratic control. What would you do? control. What would you do? control. What would you do? >> Let's say that you had >> Let's say that you had >> Let's say that you had >> So, I would start by coordination power. >> So, I would start by coordination power. >> So, I would start by coordination power. >> I I would have like probably three or >> I I would have like probably three or >> I I would have like probably three or four buckets. So, one, I would put a lot four buckets. So, one, I would put a lot four buckets. So, one, I would put a lot more money into more money into more money into than we're currently putting in than we're currently putting in than we're currently putting in publicly. Actually, Trump and Musk publicly. Actually, Trump and Musk publicly. Actually, Trump and Musk gutted a bunch of that. gutted a bunch of that. gutted a bunch of that. Um but I would make our public Um but I would make our public Um but I would make our public evaluation capabilities incredibly evaluation capabilities incredibly evaluation capabilities incredibly strong. strong. strong. So, that's one thing. They were trying So, that's one thing. They were trying So, that's one thing. They were trying to do that sort of in Biden. to do that sort of in Biden. to do that sort of in Biden. I would start doing a lot of regulating I would start doing a lot of regulating I would start doing a lot of regulating AI around kids cuz I think there's AI around kids cuz I think there's AI around kids cuz I think there's actually a fair amount of consensus on actually a fair amount of consensus on actually a fair amount of consensus on that. And so, you could move on that. I that. And so, you could move on that. I that. And so, you could move on that. I think we should be quite careful about think we should be quite careful about think we should be quite careful about running this experiment on children. running this experiment on children. running this experiment on children. I think that the idea of kids growing up I think that the idea of kids growing up I think that the idea of kids growing up with a bunch of AI buddies and lovers, with a bunch of AI buddies and lovers, with a bunch of AI buddies and lovers, I don't think we know how it will work I don't think we know how it will work I don't think we know how it will work people's sense of how relationships people's sense of how relationships people's sense of how relationships should work should work should work when they have those before they have when they have those before they have when they have those before they have real relationships. real relationships. real relationships. >> I've heard you say that the kind of >> I've heard you say that the kind of >> I've heard you say that the kind of childhood that you had could have fallen childhood that you had could have fallen childhood that you had could have fallen prey to this kind of prey to this kind of prey to this kind of >> was a very lonely kid. I was bullied a >> was a very lonely kid. I was bullied a >> was a very lonely kid. I was bullied a lot. Like, I If there And I was also a lot. Like, I If there And I was also a lot. Like, I If there And I was also a smart nerdy kid. smart nerdy kid. smart nerdy kid. And so, what would it have meant And so, what would it have meant And so, what would it have meant if instead of having to sort of fight if instead of having to sort of fight if instead of having to sort of fight through that and find my, you know, best through that and find my, you know, best through that and find my, you know, best friends and figure it out as I did, friends and figure it out as I did, friends and figure it out as I did, like, work with the friction the world like, work with the friction the world like, work with the friction the world gave me, which made me who I am, gave me, which made me who I am, gave me, which made me who I am, I could have disappeared into I could have disappeared into I could have disappeared into frictionless digital relationships, frictionless digital relationships, frictionless digital relationships, friends, tutors, friends, tutors, friends, tutors, lovers. Like, I think that's actually lovers. Like, I think that's actually lovers. Like, I think that's actually quite scary. I quite scary. I quite scary. I >> So, I was the same except for being a >> So, I was the same except for being a >> So, I was the same except for being a lot less smart and nerdy. lot less smart and nerdy. lot less smart and nerdy. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Oh, I don't know. I think you're >> Oh, I don't know. I think you're >> Oh, I don't know. I think you're probably underrating yourself. But so, probably underrating yourself. But so, probably underrating yourself. But so, I would do a lot on kids. I would do a lot on kids. I would do a lot on kids. I would do a lot on actual I would do a lot on actual I would do a lot on actual um um um goods as I was just saying. Like, I goods as I was just saying. Like, I goods as I was just saying. Like, I really want to see a public goods agenda really want to see a public goods agenda really want to see a public goods agenda for AI. for AI. for AI. And I think there are harms we can begin And I think there are harms we can begin And I think there are harms we can begin looking at now in the way AI is used and looking at now in the way AI is used and looking at now in the way AI is used and what it is given autonomy and power over what it is given autonomy and power over what it is given autonomy and power over on when human beings you need to be in on when human beings you need to be in on when human beings you need to be in the loop. I think that there's a pretty the loop. I think that there's a pretty the loop. I think that there's a pretty good thinking on safety. good thinking on safety. good thinking on safety. >> Hm. >> Hm. >> Hm. >> Um you know, something that isn't in the >> Um you know, something that isn't in the >> Um you know, something that isn't in the AI 2027 uh thing that I think is smart AI 2027 uh thing that I think is smart AI 2027 uh thing that I think is smart is AI should always have to keep a is AI should always have to keep a is AI should always have to keep a legible chain of reasoning notepad in legible chain of reasoning notepad in legible chain of reasoning notepad in English. That the the moment we start English. That the the moment we start English. That the the moment we start letting them come up with their own letting them come up with their own letting them come up with their own languages and we really have no capacity languages and we really have no capacity languages and we really have no capacity >> Mhm. to see how they're reasoning. >> Mhm. to see how they're reasoning. >> Mhm. to see how they're reasoning. >> box has a black box. >> box has a black box. >> box has a black box. >> I don't want to make the black box too >> I don't want to make the black box too >> I don't want to make the black box too black boxy. black boxy. black boxy. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And so >> And so >> And so >> Yep, that's smart. >> Yep, that's smart. >> Yep, that's smart. >> So you you want to start working with >> So you you want to start working with >> So you you want to start working with what you have now. what you have now. what you have now. Uh and you know, I'm not saying I have Uh and you know, I'm not saying I have Uh and you know, I'm not saying I have like all the ideas in my head, but like all the ideas in my head, but like all the ideas in my head, but there's enough on the table that I think there's enough on the table that I think there's enough on the table that I think we could begin. And I also by the way, I we could begin. And I also by the way, I we could begin. And I also by the way, I thought whether you want Anthropic doing thought whether you want Anthropic doing thought whether you want Anthropic doing it is like we we can argue. it is like we we can argue. it is like we we can argue. I think having a fair number of I think having a fair number of I think having a fair number of restrictions on how AI can be used for restrictions on how AI can be used for restrictions on how AI can be used for surveillance, for um kill chain surveillance, for um kill chain surveillance, for um kill chain questions questions questions is wise. And I particularly worry about is wise. And I particularly worry about is wise. And I particularly worry about surveillance. I am surveillance. I am surveillance. I am both in a a kind of macro way against both in a a kind of macro way against both in a a kind of macro way against using AI to create the panopticon, but using AI to create the panopticon, but using AI to create the panopticon, but in a micro way a lot of the machine in a micro way a lot of the machine in a micro way a lot of the machine learning tools being used to make the learning tools being used to make the learning tools being used to make the lives of workers lives of workers lives of workers measured and miserable right now measured and miserable right now measured and miserable right now are inimical are inimical are inimical >> What's that being used? >> What's that being used? >> What's that being used? >> You read a lot about this on, you know, >> You read a lot about this on, you know, >> You read a lot about this on, you know, with Amazon and delivery drivers. I've with Amazon and delivery drivers. I've with Amazon and delivery drivers. I've read things about uh like eye tracking read things about uh like eye tracking read things about uh like eye tracking software. There's all kinds of software software. There's all kinds of software software. There's all kinds of software being used in different places. I don't being used in different places. I don't being used in different places. I don't want to do it by memory cuz it's a want to do it by memory cuz it's a want to do it by memory cuz it's a minute since I looked at the report, but minute since I looked at the report, but minute since I looked at the report, but to just track how productive workers to just track how productive workers to just track how productive workers are. It's like having somebody always are. It's like having somebody always are. It's like having somebody always watching you to make sure you're never watching you to make sure you're never watching you to make sure you're never sacking off. And what I would say is sacking off. And what I would say is sacking off. And what I would say is that that that turning using machines to turn people turning using machines to turn people turning using machines to turn people into machines is inimical to human into machines is inimical to human into machines is inimical to human flourishing. flourishing. flourishing. And I do think we need to think harder And I do think we need to think harder And I do think we need to think harder in politics and AI is going to push this in politics and AI is going to push this in politics and AI is going to push this on what actually human flourishing on what actually human flourishing on what actually human flourishing means. What does it mean to be a human means. What does it mean to be a human means. What does it mean to be a human being in the in the age of AI? What does being in the in the age of AI? What does being in the in the age of AI? What does it mean to learn like a human being? it mean to learn like a human being? it mean to learn like a human being? What is human dignity, right? The Pope What is human dignity, right? The Pope What is human dignity, right? The Pope is right about that. is right about that. is right about that. >> People are already feeling this >> People are already feeling this >> People are already feeling this like like like thought entropy thing kicking in. This thought entropy thing kicking in. This thought entropy thing kicking in. This like lifting with an exoskeleton suit on like lifting with an exoskeleton suit on like lifting with an exoskeleton suit on that my capacity to actually be able to that my capacity to actually be able to that my capacity to actually be able to think properly is being degraded. I know think properly is being degraded. I know think properly is being degraded. I know Pema Chödrön, you're one of your Pema Chödrön, you're one of your Pema Chödrön, you're one of your favorite writers, favorite writers, favorite writers, talks about sitting with uncertainty talks about sitting with uncertainty talks about sitting with uncertainty instead of instead of instead of running from it. running from it. running from it. >> Mhm. AI is like in a sense the most >> Mhm. AI is like in a sense the most >> Mhm. AI is like in a sense the most powerful uncertainty killer ever built, powerful uncertainty killer ever built, powerful uncertainty killer ever built, right? You have instant answers straight right? You have instant answers straight right? You have instant answers straight away. You never need to wonder again. away. You never need to wonder again. away. You never need to wonder again. Even I you know I think about Even I you know I think about Even I you know I think about the the before times of internet use. the the before times of internet use. the the before times of internet use. There was friction even in your search. There was friction even in your search. There was friction even in your search. Right? To go on to Google to look for a Right? To go on to Google to look for a Right? To go on to Google to look for a thing, to go uh is that how reliable is thing, to go uh is that how reliable is thing, to go uh is that how reliable is that particular forum? How reliable is that particular forum? How reliable is that particular forum? How reliable is this particular poster? Have they got an this particular poster? Have they got an this particular poster? Have they got an agenda on the Oh, the it's not got a agenda on the Oh, the it's not got a agenda on the Oh, the it's not got a security certificate on this particular security certificate on this particular security certificate on this particular website. Or I'm going to have to scroll website. Or I'm going to have to scroll website. Or I'm going to have to scroll for a little while to find the specific for a little while to find the specific for a little while to find the specific type of answer that I'm looking for and type of answer that I'm looking for and type of answer that I'm looking for and then I'm going to have to scan the then I'm going to have to scan the then I'm going to have to scan the document as opposed to having the document as opposed to having the document as opposed to having the equivalent of sort of refined NASA equivalent of sort of refined NASA equivalent of sort of refined NASA ready-to-eat dehydrated reconstituted ready-to-eat dehydrated reconstituted ready-to-eat dehydrated reconstituted food that you can just squeeze from a food that you can just squeeze from a food that you can just squeeze from a toothpaste tube into your mouth. toothpaste tube into your mouth. toothpaste tube into your mouth. >> My like simp- the simplest thing I tell >> My like simp- the simplest thing I tell >> My like simp- the simplest thing I tell uh sometimes you college speaking I'll uh sometimes you college speaking I'll uh sometimes you college speaking I'll get asked like kids, you know, what get asked like kids, you know, what get asked like kids, you know, what should I do, you know, AI? should I do, you know, AI? should I do, you know, AI? My answer's always read books and paper. My answer's always read books and paper. My answer's always read books and paper. You should have a practice You should have a practice You should have a practice of cultivating the form of attention, of cultivating the form of attention, of cultivating the form of attention, the form of sustained attention the form of sustained attention the form of sustained attention without reaching to resolve every without reaching to resolve every without reaching to resolve every question that occurs in your mind question that occurs in your mind question that occurs in your mind that books create. People think I uh of that books create. People think I uh of that books create. People think I uh of books I think as a technology of books I think as a technology of books I think as a technology of information that they you download information that they you download information that they you download information from a book into your head. information from a book into your head. information from a book into your head. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But they're a technology of thinking. >> But they're a technology of thinking. >> But they're a technology of thinking. They are a scaffold for thinking. They are a scaffold for thinking. They are a scaffold for thinking. And what is happening when you read a And what is happening when you read a And what is happening when you read a book in paper and are not distracting book in paper and are not distracting book in paper and are not distracting yourself every 2 seconds yourself every 2 seconds yourself every 2 seconds is connections are being made in your is connections are being made in your is connections are being made in your mind. Like the value of a book is not mind. Like the value of a book is not mind. Like the value of a book is not just the information on it. It is what just the information on it. It is what just the information on it. It is what happens in your mind when you read it. happens in your mind when you read it. happens in your mind when you read it. And one of the things I feel very And one of the things I feel very And one of the things I feel very strongly about with my kids, strongly about with my kids, strongly about with my kids, one of the things that one of the things that one of the things that I worry about with degrading AI into I worry about with degrading AI into I worry about with degrading AI into schools is schools is schools is it you know, we talked about attention it you know, we talked about attention it you know, we talked about attention at the beginning here, at the beginning here, at the beginning here, we need as human beings to cultivate we need as human beings to cultivate we need as human beings to cultivate healthy forms of attention. And AI, one healthy forms of attention. And AI, one healthy forms of attention. And AI, one of its seductions, of its seductions, of its seductions, even for smart agentic, as we now call even for smart agentic, as we now call even for smart agentic, as we now call them, people, them, people, them, people, is is is the constant feeling and simulacra of the constant feeling and simulacra of the constant feeling and simulacra of productivity it gives you. Yep. productivity it gives you. Yep. productivity it gives you. Yep. So, you're you're reading something and So, you're you're reading something and So, you're you're reading something and you go and you look it up and you're and you go and you look it up and you're and you go and you look it up and you're and it all feels very productive. it all feels very productive. it all feels very productive. Because you are this constant Because you are this constant Because you are this constant information that's back and forth. And information that's back and forth. And information that's back and forth. And And I do, I use AI for research, I learn And I do, I use AI for research, I learn And I do, I use AI for research, I learn things from it. I'm I'm not I mean, I things from it. I'm I'm not I mean, I things from it. I'm I'm not I mean, I think you can hear in this conversation, think you can hear in this conversation, think you can hear in this conversation, I'm not uh I'm not uh I'm not uh like a pure hater. like a pure hater. like a pure hater. But, if you are not spending time But, if you are not spending time But, if you are not spending time thinking and reading away from screens, thinking and reading away from screens, thinking and reading away from screens, you're just you are allowing something you're just you are allowing something you're just you are allowing something that atrophy that you will not get back. that atrophy that you will not get back. that atrophy that you will not get back. And what I worry about with a lot of And what I worry about with a lot of And what I worry about with a lot of smart people I know is that AI makes you smart people I know is that AI makes you smart people I know is that AI makes you feel superhuman and it's making you less feel superhuman and it's making you less feel superhuman and it's making you less than human. than human. than human. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I've watched a lot of people who >> And I've watched a lot of people who >> And I've watched a lot of people who seem to use AI a lot more and their work seem to use AI a lot more and their work seem to use AI a lot more and their work is not getting better. It's getting is not getting better. It's getting is not getting better. It's getting worse. worse. worse. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh I I hear about people have all these >> Uh I I hear about people have all these >> Uh I I hear about people have all these agents running on their behalf now. And agents running on their behalf now. And agents running on their behalf now. And they come in in the morning and it's they come in in the morning and it's they come in in the morning and it's prepared this huge summary of prepared this huge summary of prepared this huge summary of everything. everything. everything. And it's like, And it's like, And it's like, what about reading a physical newspaper? what about reading a physical newspaper? what about reading a physical newspaper? Instead of now absorbing tons of book Instead of now absorbing tons of book Instead of now absorbing tons of book reports from your AIs. Right? Like, reports from your AIs. Right? Like, reports from your AIs. Right? Like, where is your space? Where is your mind? where is your space? Where is your mind? where is your space? Where is your mind? The The The the the the ghost of productivity, the illusion of ghost of productivity, the illusion of ghost of productivity, the illusion of productivity, is something that you have productivity, is something that you have productivity, is something that you have to fight so hard, I think, in this era to fight so hard, I think, in this era to fight so hard, I think, in this era because I mean, even prior to AI, because I mean, even prior to AI, because I mean, even prior to AI, it sure feels like you're doing it sure feels like you're doing it sure feels like you're doing something productive to sit there on something productive to sit there on something productive to sit there on your your your laptop, on your iPad, laptop, on your iPad, laptop, on your iPad, and even when your brain has stopped and even when your brain has stopped and even when your brain has stopped really working, you're flicking back and really working, you're flicking back and really working, you're flicking back and forth to the news, to your email, you're forth to the news, to your email, you're forth to the news, to your email, you're seeing things on social media that sort seeing things on social media that sort seeing things on social media that sort of pose as information. of pose as information. of pose as information. But, it's all distraction wearing But, it's all distraction wearing But, it's all distraction wearing productivity's clothing. productivity's clothing. productivity's clothing. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And you have to be really vigilant >> And you have to be really vigilant >> And you have to be really vigilant against it cuz deeper productivity often against it cuz deeper productivity often against it cuz deeper productivity often doesn't look or even feel like doesn't look or even feel like doesn't look or even feel like productivity. It's taking a walk and productivity. It's taking a walk and productivity. It's taking a walk and having an idea. having an idea. having an idea. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> It's like the second hour reading an >> It's like the second hour reading an >> It's like the second hour reading an actually pleasurable good book in a actually pleasurable good book in a actually pleasurable good book in a coffee shop, right? Like these things coffee shop, right? Like these things coffee shop, right? Like these things are deeply human experiences that the are deeply human experiences that the are deeply human experiences that the reason books worked and the reason we reason books worked and the reason we reason books worked and the reason we festoon festoon festoon rooms in them when we want the rooms to rooms in them when we want the rooms to rooms in them when we want the rooms to look smart. Which is what we're doing in look smart. Which is what we're doing in look smart. Which is what we're doing in here. here. here. There's a reason we associate them with There's a reason we associate them with There's a reason we associate them with intelligence because they're not about intelligence because they're not about intelligence because they're not about what's in the book, they're about the what's in the book, they're about the what's in the book, they're about the way that people who read books are way that people who read books are way that people who read books are trained to think and attend. And like trained to think and attend. And like trained to think and attend. And like that will ultimately make you much that will ultimately make you much that will ultimately make you much better at using AI. better at using AI. better at using AI. >> Desperately compensating. >> Desperately compensating. >> Desperately compensating. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> All the books behind. No, I um >> All the books behind. No, I um >> All the books behind. No, I um I noticed with myself that one of the I noticed with myself that one of the I noticed with myself that one of the best questions I asked myself on an best questions I asked myself on an best questions I asked myself on an annual review a couple of years ago was annual review a couple of years ago was annual review a couple of years ago was um um um what do I think is productive that isn't what do I think is productive that isn't what do I think is productive that isn't >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> and what do I not think is productive >> and what do I not think is productive >> and what do I not think is productive but is. but is. but is. And going for a walk without AirPods in. And going for a walk without AirPods in. And going for a walk without AirPods in. >> Wait, what did you come up with? What on >> Wait, what did you come up with? What on >> Wait, what did you come up with? What on your second list there? I want to hear your second list there? I want to hear your second list there? I want to hear it. it. it. >> Um driving without consuming anything. >> Um driving without consuming anything. >> Um driving without consuming anything. So no music, no podcasts, no nothing So no music, no podcasts, no nothing So no music, no podcasts, no nothing else. The same with going for a walk. Uh else. The same with going for a walk. Uh else. The same with going for a walk. Uh at dinner with friends. Massively at dinner with friends. Massively at dinner with friends. Massively productive. Hugely productive. Come home productive. Hugely productive. Come home productive. Hugely productive. Come home and I've got five new ideas or I feel a and I've got five new ideas or I feel a and I've got five new ideas or I feel a little bit more peaceful or I've just little bit more peaceful or I've just little bit more peaceful or I've just got to listen to someone else entertain got to listen to someone else entertain got to listen to someone else entertain me or get new perspective on something me or get new perspective on something me or get new perspective on something or I've not thought about my [ __ ] Even or I've not thought about my [ __ ] Even or I've not thought about my [ __ ] Even simply the the space that you create, simply the the space that you create, simply the the space that you create, the void that you create between the void that you create between the void that you create between thinking about your [ __ ] and thinking thinking about your [ __ ] and thinking thinking about your [ __ ] and thinking about your [ __ ] by hearing somebody else about your [ __ ] by hearing somebody else about your [ __ ] by hearing somebody else extemporaneously think about their [ __ ] extemporaneously think about their [ __ ] extemporaneously think about their [ __ ] to you. You're like, "Oh, brilliant. I to you. You're like, "Oh, brilliant. I to you. You're like, "Oh, brilliant. I thought about someone else's [ __ ] for a thought about someone else's [ __ ] for a thought about someone else's [ __ ] for a bit." Um that's stuff that bit." Um that's stuff that bit." Um that's stuff that isn't productive but I thought was. isn't productive but I thought was. isn't productive but I thought was. Sitting at my desk when I'm not working. Sitting at my desk when I'm not working. Sitting at my desk when I'm not working. I've just got the laptop open. I'm like, I've just got the laptop open. I'm like, I've just got the laptop open. I'm like, "Oh, maybe I'll pick up some "Oh, maybe I'll pick up some "Oh, maybe I'll pick up some productivity panties here." productivity panties here." productivity panties here." Uh Slack almost ever. Uh Slack almost ever. Uh Slack almost ever. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um being on calls when I don't need to. >> Um being on calls when I don't need to. >> Um being on calls when I don't need to. Like just just checking in calls. Like just just checking in calls. Like just just checking in calls. They they have all of the trappings of They they have all of the trappings of They they have all of the trappings of something that looks like progress and something that looks like progress and something that looks like progress and productivity, but when you think about productivity, but when you think about productivity, but when you think about what's actually happened at the end of what's actually happened at the end of what's actually happened at the end of it, it's almost never anything it, it's almost never anything it, it's almost never anything productive. Uh productive. Uh productive. Uh lying in a hammock. lying in a hammock. lying in a hammock. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Lying in a hammock, unusually >> Lying in a hammock, unusually >> Lying in a hammock, unusually productive. Uh so, productive. Uh so, productive. Uh so, what comes to my view? what comes to my view? what comes to my view? >> A bunch of those I'd agree with. Um >> A bunch of those I'd agree with. Um >> A bunch of those I'd agree with. Um travel. travel. travel. Huge. Uh Huge. Uh Huge. Uh And And I always like want to be careful And And I always like want to be careful And And I always like want to be careful about the language of productivity here about the language of productivity here about the language of productivity here because the point is not to like because the point is not to like because the point is not to like >> Do it in service >> Do it in service >> Do it in service >> in service of Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. It the >> in service of Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. It the >> in service of Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. It the for me, the absolute best thing I can do for me, the absolute best thing I can do for me, the absolute best thing I can do for my productivity is go to a coffee for my productivity is go to a coffee for my productivity is go to a coffee shop or some beautiful space. The the um shop or some beautiful space. The the um shop or some beautiful space. The the um aesthetic richness of the space is aesthetic richness of the space is aesthetic richness of the space is meaningful for me. meaningful for me. meaningful for me. And And And read paper books read paper books read paper books >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> for a long enough time to get into a >> for a long enough time to get into a >> for a long enough time to get into a state where my mind has state where my mind has state where my mind has settled on that being what it's doing. settled on that being what it's doing. settled on that being what it's doing. So, that's very very very So, that's very very very So, that's very very very Like that is I think the most important Like that is I think the most important Like that is I think the most important thing I do for my work. thing I do for my work. thing I do for my work. Walking. Walking. Walking. I don't listen to or read things for the I don't listen to or read things for the I don't listen to or read things for the most part on the subway anymore. I just most part on the subway anymore. I just most part on the subway anymore. I just sit there. sit there. sit there. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Like a psychopath. >> Like a psychopath. >> Like a psychopath. >> Like a psychopath. Um and I >> Like a psychopath. Um and I >> Like a psychopath. Um and I It is amazing how much is like sitting It is amazing how much is like sitting It is amazing how much is like sitting there staring forward. You feel weird there staring forward. You feel weird there staring forward. You feel weird now on the subway. now on the subway. now on the subway. >> Do you know the Rory Sutherland line >> Do you know the Rory Sutherland line >> Do you know the Rory Sutherland line about this to do with smoking? He says about this to do with smoking? He says about this to do with smoking? He says um um um sometimes you just want to stand in the sometimes you just want to stand in the sometimes you just want to stand in the corner of a room and stare out of the corner of a room and stare out of the corner of a room and stare out of the window. window. window. The problem is if you do this without a The problem is if you do this without a The problem is if you do this without a cigarette, you look like a friendless cigarette, you look like a friendless cigarette, you look like a friendless idiot. idiot. idiot. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> But if you do it with a cigarette, you >> But if you do it with a cigarette, you >> But if you do it with a cigarette, you look like a [ __ ] philosopher. look like a [ __ ] philosopher. look like a [ __ ] philosopher. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, So, So, >> Aesthetics count for a lot. >> Aesthetics count for a lot. >> Aesthetics count for a lot. >> Yeah, they they do. >> Yeah, they they do. >> Yeah, they they do. So, really just taking breaks in general. really just taking breaks in general. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I mean that Like I think actually the >> I mean that Like I think actually the >> I mean that Like I think actually the thing, if you want to just boil down a thing, if you want to just boil down a thing, if you want to just boil down a lot of what we just said, aside from the lot of what we just said, aside from the lot of what we just said, aside from the reading, reading, reading, it's that it's that it's that just staring at a screen just staring at a screen just staring at a screen endlessly is bad for you. It's good for endlessly is bad for you. It's good for endlessly is bad for you. It's good for you you you when you're doing it intentionally and when you're doing it intentionally and when you're doing it intentionally and for long enough, for long enough, for long enough, but but but I mean, I cannot tell you how many times I mean, I cannot tell you how many times I mean, I cannot tell you how many times I've solved a problem on a column I've solved a problem on a column I've solved a problem on a column that I had been that I had been that I had been banging away at the keyboard on for banging away at the keyboard on for banging away at the keyboard on for hours or days by just leaving. hours or days by just leaving. hours or days by just leaving. >> You can't white knuckle creativity. >> You can't white knuckle creativity. >> You can't white knuckle creativity. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You don't get to white knuckle it. >> You don't get to white knuckle it. >> You don't get to white knuckle it. >> And so there's So there's a lot of that. >> And so there's So there's a lot of that. >> And so there's So there's a lot of that. I mean, the gym is obvious, you know, I mean, the gym is obvious, you know, I mean, the gym is obvious, you know, you get a lot of ideas there. Showers, I you get a lot of ideas there. Showers, I you get a lot of ideas there. Showers, I mean, this [ __ ] is all It's all there, mean, this [ __ ] is all It's all there, mean, this [ __ ] is all It's all there, but I think to to draw it out of the but I think to to draw it out of the but I think to to draw it out of the creativity space that the product creativity space that the product creativity space that the product company space, the thing that is being company space, the thing that is being company space, the thing that is being said here is you need to make space for said here is you need to make space for said here is you need to make space for yourself to be a human being and do yourself to be a human being and do yourself to be a human being and do human being things. human being things. human being things. And AI is going to be better at being a And AI is going to be better at being a And AI is going to be better at being a machine than we're going to be at being machine than we're going to be at being machine than we're going to be at being machines. And so trying to make yourself machines. And so trying to make yourself machines. And so trying to make yourself into a better machine into a better machine into a better machine like everybody thinks using the AI as a like everybody thinks using the AI as a like everybody thinks using the AI as a prosthetic. prosthetic. prosthetic. But again, the lesson of McLuhan and But again, the lesson of McLuhan and But again, the lesson of McLuhan and Postman and others is eventually the AI Postman and others is eventually the AI Postman and others is eventually the AI is going to be using you as a prosthetic is going to be using you as a prosthetic is going to be using you as a prosthetic or certainly to make maybe be more or certainly to make maybe be more or certainly to make maybe be more specific specific specific the the the organization that pays for both you and organization that pays for both you and organization that pays for both you and the AI is going to be making you a the AI is going to be making you a the AI is going to be making you a prosthetic of the AI in the same way prosthetic of the AI in the same way prosthetic of the AI in the same way that Amazon has made people into that Amazon has made people into that Amazon has made people into prosthetics of the prosthetics of the prosthetics of the boxes they pick up in the delivery vans boxes they pick up in the delivery vans boxes they pick up in the delivery vans they drive. they drive. they drive. And it trying to be as little And it trying to be as little And it trying to be as little like a machine as possible like a machine as possible like a machine as possible or at least create big spaces where or at least create big spaces where or at least create big spaces where you're not acting as a machine is I you're not acting as a machine is I you're not acting as a machine is I think going to be really important. If I think going to be really important. If I think going to be really important. If I had to make a bet on how I would educate had to make a bet on how I would educate had to make a bet on how I would educate my kids my kids my kids and I had to you told me you can put and I had to you told me you can put and I had to you told me you can put them in a school that is going to be at them in a school that is going to be at them in a school that is going to be at the cutting edge of using AI the cutting edge of using AI the cutting edge of using AI >> Like a alpha school or whatever. >> Like a alpha school or whatever. >> Like a alpha school or whatever. >> or you can put them in a school that is >> or you can put them in a school that is >> or you can put them in a school that is like St. John's University or something like St. John's University or something like St. John's University or something and it's like going to be all paper and and it's like going to be all paper and and it's like going to be all paper and pens I would go the I would go that one. pens I would go the I would go that one. pens I would go the I would go that one. Because there will be AI. It will be out Because there will be AI. It will be out Because there will be AI. It will be out there. What I need to develop in them there. What I need to develop in them there. What I need to develop in them is the ability to be a human being. is the ability to be a human being. is the ability to be a human being. And one of the dangers whenever we get And one of the dangers whenever we get And one of the dangers whenever we get really excited about a new technology is really excited about a new technology is really excited about a new technology is we over adopt it in a thoughtless way. we over adopt it in a thoughtless way. we over adopt it in a thoughtless way. And then the technology colonizes our And then the technology colonizes our And then the technology colonizes our minds and then we can't realize how much minds and then we can't realize how much minds and then we can't realize how much we have lost. Attentionally in terms of we have lost. Attentionally in terms of we have lost. Attentionally in terms of our own independence, in terms of our our own independence, in terms of our our own independence, in terms of our our own depth. So, just like our own depth. So, just like our own depth. So, just like all the things we're talking about all the things we're talking about all the things we're talking about take breaks, take a walk. take breaks, take a walk. take breaks, take a walk. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like it >> Like it >> Like it >> It is so basic. >> It is so basic. >> It is so basic. >> It's it's the so it's the sort of [ __ ] >> It's it's the so it's the sort of [ __ ] >> It's it's the so it's the sort of [ __ ] that your mom would happily give you an that your mom would happily give you an that your mom would happily give you an answer for. Like she's happily got the answer for. Like she's happily got the answer for. Like she's happily got the answer for it. answer for it. answer for it. >> What's that line >> What's that line >> What's that line >> I is it I think it might be a Nietzsche >> I is it I think it might be a Nietzsche >> I is it I think it might be a Nietzsche one where it's like um I beg you my one where it's like um I beg you my one where it's like um I beg you my friend friend friend uh uh uh sleep well and go for more walks. You sleep well and go for more walks. You sleep well and go for more walks. You know, it's just always a solution. know, it's just always a solution. know, it's just always a solution. >> So, oh my god, really advice Nietzsche >> So, oh my god, really advice Nietzsche >> So, oh my god, really advice Nietzsche should have taken. should have taken. should have taken. >> Yes, agreed. Um [laughter] >> Yes, agreed. Um [laughter] >> Yes, agreed. Um [laughter] you mentioned earlier on about this you mentioned earlier on about this you mentioned earlier on about this challenge, this positioning that we've challenge, this positioning that we've challenge, this positioning that we've got at the moment around um got at the moment around um got at the moment around um encouraging people, both sides encouraging people, both sides encouraging people, both sides encouraging people to better themselves, encouraging people to better themselves, encouraging people to better themselves, perhaps a little bit of an aversion of perhaps a little bit of an aversion of perhaps a little bit of an aversion of this this this self-determination, self-determination, self-determination, personal development, at least personal development, at least personal development, at least traditionally coming from the left but traditionally coming from the left but traditionally coming from the left but maybe also coming from the right now. maybe also coming from the right now. maybe also coming from the right now. And the left And the left And the left talks a lot about structural barriers talks a lot about structural barriers talks a lot about structural barriers for women. for women. for women. Do you think it's got a an equally Do you think it's got a an equally Do you think it's got a an equally serious account of what's going wrong serious account of what's going wrong serious account of what's going wrong for men for men for men >> At the moment, I don't. I think it knows >> At the moment, I don't. I think it knows >> At the moment, I don't. I think it knows it doesn't and it's beginning to try to it doesn't and it's beginning to try to it doesn't and it's beginning to try to think about what to do about that. think about what to do about that. think about what to do about that. People like Gavin Newsom are taking that People like Gavin Newsom are taking that People like Gavin Newsom are taking that a lot more seriously. a lot more seriously. a lot more seriously. I want to get at the thing you said I want to get at the thing you said I want to get at the thing you said underneath that cuz I think it's underneath that cuz I think it's underneath that cuz I think it's important though. important though. important though. I think a very damaging thing that I think a very damaging thing that I think a very damaging thing that happened happened happened on the left, I'll call it liberalism to on the left, I'll call it liberalism to on the left, I'll call it liberalism to be more in my own stream here, be more in my own stream here, be more in my own stream here, is that it began to see individualistic is that it began to see individualistic is that it began to see individualistic explanations as excuses for structural explanations as excuses for structural explanations as excuses for structural dysfunction. dysfunction. dysfunction. And so it became hostile And so it became hostile And so it became hostile to to to any politics or moral structure that was any politics or moral structure that was any politics or moral structure that was also about self-improvement. also about self-improvement. also about self-improvement. And one, that's a betrayal of the long And one, that's a betrayal of the long And one, that's a betrayal of the long history of liberalism, which has always history of liberalism, which has always history of liberalism, which has always been about self-cultivation, like your been about self-cultivation, like your been about self-cultivation, like your reader, Kant, your John Mills. reader, Kant, your John Mills. reader, Kant, your John Mills. But or for that matter, if you're, you But or for that matter, if you're, you But or for that matter, if you're, you know, know, know, great liberal politicians like Frederick great liberal politicians like Frederick great liberal politicians like Frederick Douglass or MLK or um FDR, Douglass or MLK or um FDR, Douglass or MLK or um FDR, Lincoln. Lincoln. Lincoln. >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> But, when you give up on that, you're giving when you give up on that, you're giving up on one of the fundamental drives. So, up on one of the fundamental drives. So, up on one of the fundamental drives. So, you want a society that is taking you want a society that is taking you want a society that is taking seriously all the ways in which seriously all the ways in which seriously all the ways in which structures oppress and coerce structures oppress and coerce structures oppress and coerce and impede people's flourishing. and impede people's flourishing. and impede people's flourishing. And also, what you're trying to create And also, what you're trying to create And also, what you're trying to create space for space for space for is for them to use their is for them to use their is for them to use their agency and their energy and their will agency and their energy and their will agency and their energy and their will to flourish. to flourish. to flourish. And so, you need both sides of that. You And so, you need both sides of that. You And so, you need both sides of that. You need the vision of the just society and need the vision of the just society and need the vision of the just society and you need the vision you need the vision you need the vision of the flourishing self-cultivating of the flourishing self-cultivating of the flourishing self-cultivating person. And and I do think the left person. And and I do think the left person. And and I do think the left became became became hostile to this and particularly became hostile to this and particularly became hostile to this and particularly became hostile to it when it was male-coded. hostile to it when it was male-coded. hostile to it when it was male-coded. So, when it was coded in the way that So, when it was coded in the way that So, when it was coded in the way that self-help is for women, right, more self-help is for women, right, more self-help is for women, right, more therapeutically, therapeutically, therapeutically, um more relationally, um more relationally, um more relationally, it was, you know, much easier. Uh Esther it was, you know, much easier. Uh Esther it was, you know, much easier. Uh Esther Perel, Brené Brown, other people like Perel, Brené Brown, other people like Perel, Brené Brown, other people like that who who have more of a vision in that who who have more of a vision in that who who have more of a vision in that. that. that. That that went down easily. That that went down easily. That that went down easily. But, in the male space, where it's a But, in the male space, where it's a But, in the male space, where it's a little more testosteroney, when it got little more testosteroney, when it got little more testosteroney, when it got associated with uh the Joe Rogans and associated with uh the Joe Rogans and associated with uh the Joe Rogans and Modern Wisdoms and something I I Modern Wisdoms and something I I Modern Wisdoms and something I I shouldn't say that, but the Jordan shouldn't say that, but the Jordan shouldn't say that, but the Jordan Petersons is maybe a better way to put Petersons is maybe a better way to put Petersons is maybe a better way to put it. it. it. I think there was like a pushback I think there was like a pushback I think there was like a pushback because also some of those people did because also some of those people did because also some of those people did have very aggressive right-wing have very aggressive right-wing have very aggressive right-wing politics. And so, these things got like politics. And so, these things got like politics. And so, these things got like linked together in their minds linked together in their minds linked together in their minds and and and instead of saying, "Okay, how can we instead of saying, "Okay, how can we instead of saying, "Okay, how can we take take take the impulse in here that is clearly the impulse in here that is clearly the impulse in here that is clearly making Jordan Peterson into some kind of making Jordan Peterson into some kind of making Jordan Peterson into some kind of international phenom international phenom international phenom and also try to answer it and have and also try to answer it and have and also try to answer it and have something constructive to say about it." something constructive to say about it." something constructive to say about it." It It It there was sort of a rejection of it. there was sort of a rejection of it. there was sort of a rejection of it. >> Discarded entirely because it's >> Discarded entirely because it's >> Discarded entirely because it's rejecting the structural inequalities rejecting the structural inequalities rejecting the structural inequalities that people are facing by saying that that people are facing by saying that that people are facing by saying that there are things that you can do in to there are things that you can do in to there are things that you can do in to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. pull yourself up by your bootstraps. pull yourself up by your bootstraps. What what is surprising to me, and I'd What what is surprising to me, and I'd What what is surprising to me, and I'd be very curious for what you think be very curious for what you think be very curious for what you think happened here, because you know this happened here, because you know this happened here, because you know this world a lot better than I do. Not the world a lot better than I do. Not the world a lot better than I do. Not the right politically, but but somewhere right politically, but but somewhere right politically, but but somewhere this went. Is I don't really the way that Is I don't really the way that Peterson and maybe Doug Murray and Peterson and maybe Doug Murray and Peterson and maybe Doug Murray and people like that, it seemed to like what people like that, it seemed to like what people like that, it seemed to like what came after that was Andrew Tate and Nick came after that was Andrew Tate and Nick came after that was Andrew Tate and Nick Fuentes and people who have I think no Fuentes and people who have I think no Fuentes and people who have I think no real concept of virtue. real concept of virtue. real concept of virtue. Right? I got my disagreements with Right? I got my disagreements with Right? I got my disagreements with Jordan Peterson on lots of things, but Jordan Peterson on lots of things, but Jordan Peterson on lots of things, but that guy thought a lot about virtue. that guy thought a lot about virtue. that guy thought a lot about virtue. Thought about myth, thought about, you Thought about myth, thought about, you Thought about myth, thought about, you know, know, know, and and and >> Over thought about it. >> Over thought about it. >> Over thought about it. >> Over thought about it. >> Over thought about it. >> Over thought about it. Somehow the right, like Bronze Age Somehow the right, like Bronze Age Somehow the right, like Bronze Age Pervert, it pushed towards Pervert, it pushed towards Pervert, it pushed towards vice. vice. vice. So, the left gave up on virtue. So, the left gave up on virtue. So, the left gave up on virtue. And the right rejected it. And the right rejected it. And the right rejected it. Now, I I shouldn't say the left and Now, I I shouldn't say the left and Now, I I shouldn't say the left and right because lots of people on both, right because lots of people on both, right because lots of people on both, just like normal ass people, raising just like normal ass people, raising just like normal ass people, raising kids and loving their partners and doing kids and loving their partners and doing kids and loving their partners and doing their job and volunteering their their job and volunteering their their job and volunteering their community and going to church. community and going to church. community and going to church. But But But maybe it's like an algorithmic dimension maybe it's like an algorithmic dimension maybe it's like an algorithmic dimension of things. of things. of things. >> The quiet middle three quintiles. >> The quiet middle three quintiles. >> The quiet middle three quintiles. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. But But But at like the apex of the attention at like the apex of the attention at like the apex of the attention economy economy economy like I do feel I watch this happen. Like like I do feel I watch this happen. Like like I do feel I watch this happen. Like you're not going to convince me it you're not going to convince me it you're not going to convince me it didn't. Like the left became quite didn't. Like the left became quite didn't. Like the left became quite hostile to sort of ideas of individual hostile to sort of ideas of individual hostile to sort of ideas of individual cultivation. Like, oh, that's just like cultivation. Like, oh, that's just like cultivation. Like, oh, that's just like you using your privilege. you using your privilege. you using your privilege. And the right became the right moved in And the right became the right moved in And the right became the right moved in a way where it became like a way where it became like a way where it became like vice maxing. Do you use the term that vice maxing. Do you use the term that vice maxing. Do you use the term that that comes in uses? that comes in uses? that comes in uses? >> Kind of caricatured it to a degree. >> Kind of caricatured it to a degree. >> Kind of caricatured it to a degree. >> But >> But >> But >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> the most extreme version of this >> the most extreme version of this >> the most extreme version of this I mean, certainly I mean, certainly I mean, certainly I think if Jordan hadn't had his time I think if Jordan hadn't had his time I think if Jordan hadn't had his time away uh if he hadn't done the God pivot away uh if he hadn't done the God pivot away uh if he hadn't done the God pivot in the same way, if he'd continued to do in the same way, if he'd continued to do in the same way, if he'd continued to do the the the clean your room clean your room clean your room get your bootstraps and and pick get your bootstraps and and pick get your bootstraps and and pick yourself up by them yourself up by them yourself up by them I do think that that would have probably I do think that that would have probably I do think that that would have probably curtailed a lot of the vacuum that other curtailed a lot of the vacuum that other curtailed a lot of the vacuum that other voices got sucked into. Now, who knows voices got sucked into. Now, who knows voices got sucked into. Now, who knows how that would have actually played out, how that would have actually played out, how that would have actually played out, but I I definitely get the sense that but I I definitely get the sense that but I I definitely get the sense that wow, there is this big cohort of largely wow, there is this big cohort of largely wow, there is this big cohort of largely men, largely young men, who men, largely young men, who men, largely young men, who have increasingly grown up in fatherless have increasingly grown up in fatherless have increasingly grown up in fatherless homes, which is a problem that the left homes, which is a problem that the left homes, which is a problem that the left should be very concerned about, right? should be very concerned about, right? should be very concerned about, right? Uh Uh Uh they're looking for a patriarch figure. they're looking for a patriarch figure. they're looking for a patriarch figure. They're looking for someone to tell them They're looking for someone to tell them They're looking for someone to tell them how like how do I become a like it's the how like how do I become a like it's the how like how do I become a like it's the equivalent of Dad, how do I shave? equivalent of Dad, how do I shave? equivalent of Dad, how do I shave? Or I fancy this girl in school, how do I Or I fancy this girl in school, how do I Or I fancy this girl in school, how do I talk to her? It's the equivalent of talk to her? It's the equivalent of talk to her? It's the equivalent of that, but life-wide. And that, but life-wide. And that, but life-wide. And if you open up that market, but then if you open up that market, but then if you open up that market, but then remove yourself from it, remove yourself from it, remove yourself from it, >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> it's just going to suck in anybody that >> it's just going to suck in anybody that >> it's just going to suck in anybody that can service it, but perhaps not quite at can service it, but perhaps not quite at can service it, but perhaps not quite at the level that that first mover had been the level that that first mover had been the level that that first mover had been able to do. And I think that that was able to do. And I think that that was able to do. And I think that that was that was definitely a big part of it. that was definitely a big part of it. that was definitely a big part of it. It's been kind of fascinating to see It's been kind of fascinating to see It's been kind of fascinating to see this conversation unfold because this conversation unfold because this conversation unfold because everybody's talking out of both sides of everybody's talking out of both sides of everybody's talking out of both sides of their mouth, which for instance, one of their mouth, which for instance, one of their mouth, which for instance, one of the big criticisms that I can certainly the big criticisms that I can certainly the big criticisms that I can certainly have of most of the pro male advocates have of most of the pro male advocates have of most of the pro male advocates and most of the people that are on the and most of the people that are on the and most of the people that are on the right, uh um men's mental health isn't right, uh um men's mental health isn't right, uh um men's mental health isn't taken seriously until it affects women taken seriously until it affects women taken seriously until it affects women or other people. or other people. or other people. Um Um Um lip service is paid to that, but no one lip service is paid to that, but no one lip service is paid to that, but no one really cares and there aren't very many really cares and there aren't very many really cares and there aren't very many therapeutic models that sort of speak to therapeutic models that sort of speak to therapeutic models that sort of speak to men in the way that they want to be men in the way that they want to be men in the way that they want to be spoken to with regards to understanding spoken to with regards to understanding spoken to with regards to understanding their desire for progress and conquering their desire for progress and conquering their desire for progress and conquering mastery, and also providing them with mastery, and also providing them with mastery, and also providing them with solutions that they can move forward on solutions that they can move forward on solutions that they can move forward on as opposed to just hey, come in here, as opposed to just hey, come in here, as opposed to just hey, come in here, talk about your feelings. Your your talk about your feelings. Your your talk about your feelings. Your your issue is that you're a defective woman issue is that you're a defective woman issue is that you're a defective woman as opposed to a man who needs as opposed to a man who needs as opposed to a man who needs assistance. assistance. assistance. Moving forward linearly. Moving forward linearly. Moving forward linearly. Uh Uh Uh but also but also but also that same group of people that say that that same group of people that say that that same group of people that say that that's a big deal and claim to be that's a big deal and claim to be that's a big deal and claim to be advocates for men advocates for men advocates for men will happily mock a guy who opens up will happily mock a guy who opens up will happily mock a guy who opens up about his emotions on the internet. If about his emotions on the internet. If about his emotions on the internet. If you see a video of a guy who's crying or you see a video of a guy who's crying or you see a video of a guy who's crying or is really struggling or is down on his is really struggling or is down on his is really struggling or is down on his luck, luck, luck, there is not the sort of camaraderie there is not the sort of camaraderie there is not the sort of camaraderie that you're claiming that it's supposed that you're claiming that it's supposed that you're claiming that it's supposed to be there. That's like it is just a to be there. That's like it is just a to be there. That's like it is just a huge hypocrisy. This is huge hypocrisy. This is huge hypocrisy. This is men are good Tom Golden's got a substack men are good Tom Golden's got a substack men are good Tom Golden's got a substack and he identifies this. It's like guys and he identifies this. It's like guys and he identifies this. It's like guys won't help other guys that are won't help other guys that are won't help other guys that are struggling emotionally in that sort of a struggling emotionally in that sort of a struggling emotionally in that sort of a way whilst saying that men's mental way whilst saying that men's mental way whilst saying that men's mental health needs to be taken more seriously. health needs to be taken more seriously. health needs to be taken more seriously. It's like it's the equivalent of not It's like it's the equivalent of not It's like it's the equivalent of not putting your money where your mouth is putting your money where your mouth is putting your money where your mouth is with regards to this. But on the left kind of complete denial of self-agency kind of complete denial of self-agency of sovereignty of um of sovereignty of um of sovereignty of um modern men being made to pay for the modern men being made to pay for the modern men being made to pay for the sins that their grandfathers benefited sins that their grandfathers benefited sins that their grandfathers benefited from a patriarchy that they no longer from a patriarchy that they no longer from a patriarchy that they no longer feel a part of as Christine Emba says feel a part of as Christine Emba says feel a part of as Christine Emba says and you go okay well and you go okay well and you go okay well on both of those sides on both of those sides on both of those sides it doesn't feel like much progress is it doesn't feel like much progress is it doesn't feel like much progress is being at least much productive progress being at least much productive progress being at least much productive progress is being made and then if you do begin is being made and then if you do begin is being made and then if you do begin to try and have this conversation I'm to try and have this conversation I'm to try and have this conversation I'm aware like aware like aware like looking the way that I do maybe it's the looking the way that I do maybe it's the looking the way that I do maybe it's the British accent maybe it's the whatever British accent maybe it's the whatever British accent maybe it's the whatever like as soon as you start talking about like as soon as you start talking about like as soon as you start talking about the problems of men and boys unless you the problems of men and boys unless you the problems of men and boys unless you have this have this have this painful throat clearing land painful throat clearing land painful throat clearing land acknowledgement before you [ __ ] do it acknowledgement before you [ __ ] do it acknowledgement before you [ __ ] do it every single time every single time every single time the same boring accusations get thrown the same boring accusations get thrown the same boring accusations get thrown at you. You don't care about women that at you. You don't care about women that at you. You don't care about women that this is misogyny rebranded that this is this is misogyny rebranded that this is this is misogyny rebranded that this is the thin end of the wedge that it's a the thin end of the wedge that it's a the thin end of the wedge that it's a gateway drug to something that's much gateway drug to something that's much gateway drug to something that's much more pernicious down the line that more pernicious down the line that more pernicious down the line that talking about talking about talking about birth rates or coupling or it's it's you birth rates or coupling or it's it's you birth rates or coupling or it's it's you trying to pull women out of the trying to pull women out of the trying to pull women out of the boardroom and put put them back into the boardroom and put put them back into the boardroom and put put them back into the kitchen and it's just it's the boring kitchen and it's just it's the boring kitchen and it's just it's the boring and fatiguing when you're trying to make and fatiguing when you're trying to make and fatiguing when you're trying to make genuine progress and you say okay well genuine progress and you say okay well genuine progress and you say okay well at what point can we have this at what point can we have this at what point can we have this conversation without having to prostrate conversation without having to prostrate conversation without having to prostrate ourselves for all of these issues that ourselves for all of these issues that ourselves for all of these issues that have come before. have come before. have come before. >> Let me ask you something though because >> Let me ask you something though because >> Let me ask you something though because I I I think you're right I I I think you're right I I I think you're right about the world of a couple of years about the world of a couple of years about the world of a couple of years ago. ago. ago. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But I go on podcasts like this one >> But I go on podcasts like this one >> But I go on podcasts like this one sometimes I was just on with Dax and I'm sometimes I was just on with Dax and I'm sometimes I was just on with Dax and I'm sure expert and and I've done others. sure expert and and I've done others. sure expert and and I've done others. Do you Do you Do you who who are you sha- who are you we who who are you sha- who are you we who who are you sha- who are you we shadow boxing with here? shadow boxing with here? shadow boxing with here? >> Mhm. Because is this still true? I >> Mhm. Because is this still true? I >> Mhm. Because is this still true? I actually do think there's a period where actually do think there's a period where actually do think there's a period where you would get a lot of you would get a lot of you would get a lot of I mean a lot maybe is even a strong I mean a lot maybe is even a strong I mean a lot maybe is even a strong word, but word, but word, but in both directions in both directions in both directions there was like pretty there was like pretty there was like pretty toxic and weird social media dynamics toxic and weird social media dynamics toxic and weird social media dynamics that got very very gendered. that got very very gendered. that got very very gendered. And were very identitarian. And were very identitarian. And were very identitarian. And now I think there's a lot of And now I think there's a lot of And now I think there's a lot of hangover of that. hangover of that. hangover of that. But it and I'm not saying you can't find But it and I'm not saying you can't find But it and I'm not saying you can't find it somewhere on the internet. You can it somewhere on the internet. You can it somewhere on the internet. You can find anything somewhere on the internet. find anything somewhere on the internet. find anything somewhere on the internet. But is it really still there in that But is it really still there in that But is it really still there in that way? Like I see for instance Gavin way? Like I see for instance Gavin way? Like I see for instance Gavin Newsom on the left is the trying to Newsom on the left is the trying to Newsom on the left is the trying to engage this conversation engage this conversation engage this conversation you know, fairly successfully, I think. you know, fairly successfully, I think. you know, fairly successfully, I think. And in who he's having on his podcast, And in who he's having on his podcast, And in who he's having on his podcast, which has been I think a very which has been I think a very which has been I think a very interesting project. And you know, I see interesting project. And you know, I see interesting project. And you know, I see Ryan Holiday, right? Who I know has been Ryan Holiday, right? Who I know has been Ryan Holiday, right? Who I know has been on the show and I think he's great. on the show and I think he's great. on the show and I think he's great. >> Obama Obama made a pivot a long time >> Obama Obama made a pivot a long time >> Obama Obama made a pivot a long time ago. Yeah. ago. Yeah. ago. Yeah. >> I mean his po- I mean Obama was always >> I mean his po- I mean Obama was always >> I mean his po- I mean Obama was always This is a thing, right? This was a very This is a thing, right? This was a very This is a thing, right? This was a very this this thing we're talking about was this this thing we're talking about was this this thing we're talking about was a very punctuated moment. Because Obama a very punctuated moment. Because Obama a very punctuated moment. Because Obama had a very aggressive politics of had a very aggressive politics of had a very aggressive politics of self-cultivation. self-cultivation. self-cultivation. Right? A very big there's a society and Right? A very big there's a society and Right? A very big there's a society and there's the individual and you have to there's the individual and you have to there's the individual and you have to act in a certain way. You have to be a act in a certain way. You have to be a act in a certain way. You have to be a certain thing for your family. And his certain thing for your family. And his certain thing for your family. And his post uh presidential project was about post uh presidential project was about post uh presidential project was about young men, right? That was like a big young men, right? That was like a big young men, right? That was like a big thing he did. thing he did. thing he did. And so like there was this period online And so like there was this period online And so like there was this period online where things got really fractious um where things got really fractious um where things got really fractious um between the genders and and other between the genders and and other between the genders and and other things. things. things. And I think everybody is having some And I think everybody is having some And I think everybody is having some trouble trouble trouble knowing if they can declare it over. knowing if they can declare it over. knowing if they can declare it over. >> Yeah, it's I I understand what you mean. >> Yeah, it's I I understand what you mean. >> Yeah, it's I I understand what you mean. Uh Uh Uh have have have >> you still experience it is I guess the >> you still experience it is I guess the >> you still experience it is I guess the question I was going to question I was going to question I was going to >> I I absolutely I >> I I absolutely I >> I I absolutely I >> From where? Like who? >> From where? Like who? >> From where? Like who? >> If I was to put out any kind of a real >> If I was to put out any kind of a real >> If I was to put out any kind of a real online that talks about sex differences, online that talks about sex differences, online that talks about sex differences, still the blank slateism will come in. still the blank slateism will come in. still the blank slateism will come in. There was one that came out yesterday. There was one that came out yesterday. There was one that came out yesterday. There was one that came out yesterday There was one that came out yesterday There was one that came out yesterday that said um the that said um the that said um the differential in terms of housework differential in terms of housework differential in terms of housework around the house between men and women. around the house between men and women. around the house between men and women. Really interesting study. If you look at Really interesting study. If you look at Really interesting study. If you look at the number the amount of housework time the number the amount of housework time the number the amount of housework time that is spent by single men and single that is spent by single men and single that is spent by single men and single women living on their own, women living on their own, women living on their own, women do 200% women do 200% women do 200% the amount of housework. Their standards the amount of housework. Their standards the amount of housework. Their standards for a home tend to be more clean than for a home tend to be more clean than for a home tend to be more clean than men's do. And I mean this has been men's do. And I mean this has been men's do. And I mean this has been showing up in The Simpsons and Family showing up in The Simpsons and Family showing up in The Simpsons and Family Guy and you know, all of the kind of Guy and you know, all of the kind of Guy and you know, all of the kind of clichés for a long time. clichés for a long time. clichés for a long time. But a ton of the comments are to do with But a ton of the comments are to do with But a ton of the comments are to do with well, the only reason for that is well, the only reason for that is well, the only reason for that is because women are socialized into because women are socialized into because women are socialized into thinking that they have to have high thinking that they have to have high thinking that they have to have high levels of presentability and that it levels of presentability and that it levels of presentability and that it it's it's it's uh uh uh uh uh uh judgmental and social conditioning judgmental and social conditioning judgmental and social conditioning that's caused this thing to happen. I that's caused this thing to happen. I that's caused this thing to happen. I don't think that that's the case. I don't think that that's the case. I don't think that that's the case. I think that you can make a pretty easy think that you can make a pretty easy think that you can make a pretty easy evolutionary evolutionary evolutionary psychology explanation to understand why psychology explanation to understand why psychology explanation to understand why that would not be the case. If you to that would not be the case. If you to that would not be the case. If you to talk ever about anything that's to do talk ever about anything that's to do talk ever about anything that's to do with male self-improvement male self-improvement and the challenges that they're facing and the challenges that they're facing and the challenges that they're facing with regards to that. I mean a good with regards to that. I mean a good with regards to that. I mean a good example of this was there was a study example of this was there was a study example of this was there was a study that said men need two that said men need two that said men need two guys nights out per week in order to guys nights out per week in order to guys nights out per week in order to maintain optimal mental health. It's a maintain optimal mental health. It's a maintain optimal mental health. It's a pretty big study. It was pretty big study. It was pretty big study. It was pretty well researched. pretty well researched. pretty well researched. Every single comment was Every single comment was Every single comment was boohoo poor patriarchy. boohoo poor patriarchy. boohoo poor patriarchy. Tell me that you're a manchild without Tell me that you're a manchild without Tell me that you're a manchild without telling me that you're a manchild. I telling me that you're a manchild. I telling me that you're a manchild. I think when you see what Sabrina think when you see what Sabrina think when you see what Sabrina Carpenter at the moment the lyrics the Carpenter at the moment the lyrics the Carpenter at the moment the lyrics the uh uh uh the the the broad culture that's happening is not broad culture that's happening is not broad culture that's happening is not unifying. And it's not unifying from unifying. And it's not unifying from unifying. And it's not unifying from both sides. I would agree it's not both sides. I would agree it's not both sides. I would agree it's not unifying. But I I think this is the unifying. But I I think this is the unifying. But I I think this is the thing I'm trying to get out here a thing I'm trying to get out here a thing I'm trying to get out here a little bit. Because I'm not disagreeing little bit. Because I'm not disagreeing little bit. Because I'm not disagreeing that that either these comments are real that that either these comments are real that that either these comments are real or some of these dynamics are real. or some of these dynamics are real. or some of these dynamics are real. I'm I'm I'm I think one of the things I think one of the things I think one of the things we have to get over in the culture we have to get over in the culture we have to get over in the culture is is is one expecting anything to be unified. one expecting anything to be unified. one expecting anything to be unified. But treating the comment section like But treating the comment section like But treating the comment section like the actual reaction. the actual reaction. the actual reaction. >> What would be a more real reaction? >> What would be a more real reaction? >> What would be a more real reaction? >> I think that >> I think that >> I think that other people in the conversation, I mean other people in the conversation, I mean other people in the conversation, I mean cuz my my perception of this, right? cuz my my perception of this, right? cuz my my perception of this, right? Which I track more what the people in Which I track more what the people in Which I track more what the people in politics are saying and what the other politics are saying and what the other politics are saying and what the other journalists are saying journalists are saying journalists are saying is that this conversation about men is that this conversation about men is that this conversation about men doing poorly doing poorly doing poorly is everywhere. I mean Richard Reeves' is everywhere. I mean Richard Reeves' is everywhere. I mean Richard Reeves' book was a big deal. And it's completely book was a big deal. And it's completely book was a big deal. And it's completely at this at like the Democratic Party at this at like the Democratic Party at this at like the Democratic Party like like like it had this like sort of ridiculous it had this like sort of ridiculous it had this like sort of ridiculous thing where it was going to spend tens thing where it was going to spend tens thing where it was going to spend tens of millions of dollars on this like of millions of dollars on this like of millions of dollars on this like problems of problems of problems of men, but men, but men, but but the idea that you can just say like but the idea that you can just say like but the idea that you can just say like toxic masculinity be done with it. I'm toxic masculinity be done with it. I'm toxic masculinity be done with it. I'm not saying you won't find that in a not saying you won't find that in a not saying you won't find that in a comment section. I'm just saying that it comment section. I'm just saying that it comment section. I'm just saying that it actually doesn't feel to me like where actually doesn't feel to me like where actually doesn't feel to me like where the zeitgeist is. the zeitgeist is. the zeitgeist is. But I think there's a lot of But I think there's a lot of But I think there's a lot of shadow boxing with it. So I mean I shadow boxing with it. So I mean I shadow boxing with it. So I mean I again like I'm a again like I'm a again like I'm a well-known liberal commentator out here well-known liberal commentator out here well-known liberal commentator out here talking about how much we need a liberal talking about how much we need a liberal talking about how much we need a liberal politics of virtue. And broadly getting politics of virtue. And broadly getting politics of virtue. And broadly getting a good reaction to that. Not never a good reaction to that. Not never a good reaction to that. Not never getting [ __ ] for it, but I don't know. I getting [ __ ] for it, but I don't know. I getting [ __ ] for it, but I don't know. I don't expect to never get [ __ ] don't expect to never get [ __ ] don't expect to never get [ __ ] >> It's interesting. I wonder whether >> It's interesting. I wonder whether >> It's interesting. I wonder whether the accelerator was pressed and we're the accelerator was pressed and we're the accelerator was pressed and we're still sort of coasting close to maximum still sort of coasting close to maximum still sort of coasting close to maximum speed, but it's not actually being speed, but it's not actually being speed, but it's not actually being increased. That might be that might be a increased. That might be that might be a increased. That might be that might be a way to look at it. At least in my way to look at it. At least in my way to look at it. At least in my perspective perspective perspective you're right that talking about the you're right that talking about the you're right that talking about the problems of men and boys, talking about problems of men and boys, talking about problems of men and boys, talking about the problems of men and boys the problems of men and boys the problems of men and boys is not seen with the same dismissiveness is not seen with the same dismissiveness is not seen with the same dismissiveness that it would have been 2 years ago. that it would have been 2 years ago. that it would have been 2 years ago. Talking about the solutions for the Talking about the solutions for the Talking about the solutions for the problems of men and boys problems of men and boys problems of men and boys which is really what matters. Like which is really what matters. Like which is really what matters. Like identifying the problem is only identifying the problem is only identifying the problem is only interesting insofar or useful insofar as interesting insofar or useful insofar as interesting insofar or useful insofar as it allows you to find a solution. it allows you to find a solution. it allows you to find a solution. That to me still That to me still That to me still gets the hackles up of a lot of people gets the hackles up of a lot of people gets the hackles up of a lot of people on the internet. And on the internet. And on the internet. And whether comments are tastemakers, how whether comments are tastemakers, how whether comments are tastemakers, how top-down versus bottom-up is this, like top-down versus bottom-up is this, like top-down versus bottom-up is this, like I I it's kind of hard. What are you I I it's kind of hard. What are you I I it's kind of hard. What are you aggregating it from? aggregating it from? aggregating it from? >> Well, that's what I mean that I think is >> Well, that's what I mean that I think is >> Well, that's what I mean that I think is very hard. I think we have very very hard. I think we have very very hard. I think we have very distorted views of the public. distorted views of the public. distorted views of the public. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And this has been one of the ways we've >> And this has been one of the ways we've >> And this has been one of the ways we've been deranged been deranged been deranged by algorithmic media. by algorithmic media. by algorithmic media. And I think a couple of years back, And I think a couple of years back, And I think a couple of years back, people reflected that. people reflected that. people reflected that. They thought it was real. They thought it was real. They thought it was real. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And so, the tastemakers and the elites >> And so, the tastemakers and the elites >> And so, the tastemakers and the elites began to sort of like fall in line to it began to sort of like fall in line to it began to sort of like fall in line to it a little bit. a little bit. a little bit. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I think that has stopped to a large >> And I think that has stopped to a large >> And I think that has stopped to a large degree, and I think people have sort of degree, and I think people have sort of degree, and I think people have sort of reasserted um independence from it. reasserted um independence from it. reasserted um independence from it. But obviously, like the But obviously, like the But obviously, like the the the the buzz is still there. buzz is still there. buzz is still there. But not mistaking the buzz as like the But not mistaking the buzz as like the But not mistaking the buzz as like the thing. So, like, look, I don't know what thing. So, like, look, I don't know what thing. So, like, look, I don't know what the solutions are that that you're the solutions are that that you're the solutions are that that you're describing. I'm sure they're like some I describing. I'm sure they're like some I describing. I'm sure they're like some I might agree with, some I might not. might agree with, some I might not. might agree with, some I might not. I don't feel I will say that even I don't feel I will say that even I don't feel I will say that even compared to what I thought was true a compared to what I thought was true a compared to what I thought was true a couple years ago, I don't feel this couple years ago, I don't feel this couple years ago, I don't feel this particular conversation to be particular conversation to be particular conversation to be electric fenced. electric fenced. electric fenced. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Right? Like, I believe there are >> Right? Like, I believe there are >> Right? Like, I believe there are differences between men and women. Like, differences between men and women. Like, differences between men and women. Like, something I've said on different shows something I've said on different shows something I've said on different shows is that one reason I think that some of is that one reason I think that some of is that one reason I think that some of the vision of masculinity I'm seeing the vision of masculinity I'm seeing the vision of masculinity I'm seeing like the like the like the you know, take the shackles off of men, you know, take the shackles off of men, you know, take the shackles off of men, right? Seems wrong to me is that you right? Seems wrong to me is that you right? Seems wrong to me is that you have to I think start any vision of have to I think start any vision of have to I think start any vision of masculinity with the reality that men masculinity with the reality that men masculinity with the reality that men are stronger and through testosterone are stronger and through testosterone are stronger and through testosterone more aggressive. more aggressive. more aggressive. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And so, self-mastery has always been >> And so, self-mastery has always been >> And so, self-mastery has always been an important part of visions of an important part of visions of an important part of visions of masculinity. Like, self-mastery and the masculinity. Like, self-mastery and the masculinity. Like, self-mastery and the constructive channeling of those constructive channeling of those constructive channeling of those impulses is like foundational to any impulses is like foundational to any impulses is like foundational to any healthy masculinity. healthy masculinity. healthy masculinity. And you're mostly I think people And you're mostly I think people And you're mostly I think people understand what I'm talking about when I understand what I'm talking about when I understand what I'm talking about when I say that. say that. say that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh like I have boys, I think about this >> Uh like I have boys, I think about this >> Uh like I have boys, I think about this a lot. Like, that's my kids. a lot. Like, that's my kids. a lot. Like, that's my kids. >> is increasingly important. >> is increasingly important. >> is increasingly important. >> Yeah, you're not going to convince me >> Yeah, you're not going to convince me >> Yeah, you're not going to convince me that they don't have to channel their that they don't have to channel their that they don't have to channel their aggressive impulses in healthy ways. aggressive impulses in healthy ways. aggressive impulses in healthy ways. Uh and I just think in politics, I mean, Uh and I just think in politics, I mean, Uh and I just think in politics, I mean, you know, again, I think Newsom is you know, again, I think Newsom is you know, again, I think Newsom is interesting because he's somebody who interesting because he's somebody who interesting because he's somebody who and you should have him on the show, and you should have him on the show, and you should have him on the show, it'd be a very interesting conversation. it'd be a very interesting conversation. it'd be a very interesting conversation. But he's somebody who I think is very But he's somebody who I think is very But he's somebody who I think is very he's a very sensitive touch he's a very sensitive touch he's a very sensitive touch for the politics of a moment. for the politics of a moment. for the politics of a moment. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I mean, you look at his book, like >> And I mean, you look at his book, like >> And I mean, you look at his book, like Young Man in a Hurry, the one he just Young Man in a Hurry, the one he just Young Man in a Hurry, the one he just released, which is unusually interesting released, which is unusually interesting released, which is unusually interesting for a politician's book. for a politician's book. for a politician's book. >> Which is not a high bar, obviously. >> Which is not a high bar, obviously. >> Which is not a high bar, obviously. >> They should put that on the front cover. >> They should put that on the front cover. >> They should put that on the front cover. >> It is very much about this question of >> It is very much about this question of >> It is very much about this question of like like like I mean, you could really understand that I mean, you could really understand that I mean, you could really understand that book as a confrontation with a certain book as a confrontation with a certain book as a confrontation with a certain kind of maleness. kind of maleness. kind of maleness. And he's very explicit about that. And he's very explicit about that. And he's very explicit about that. In a way I find interesting. So, so to In a way I find interesting. So, so to In a way I find interesting. So, so to me, my sense is like the the water has me, my sense is like the the water has me, my sense is like the the water has changed here. I will say I think the changed here. I will say I think the changed here. I will say I think the other thing though is that other thing though is that other thing though is that I have often thought like the division I have often thought like the division I have often thought like the division of the problems into male problems and of the problems into male problems and of the problems into male problems and problems and female problems. I agree problems and female problems. I agree problems and female problems. I agree that there are different questions for that there are different questions for that there are different questions for men and women. I also think that there men and women. I also think that there men and women. I also think that there is a broader set of questions that are is a broader set of questions that are is a broader set of questions that are part of the AI thing and are a little part of the AI thing and are a little part of the AI thing and are a little bit more unifying about bit more unifying about bit more unifying about we actually need to find ways for human we actually need to find ways for human we actually need to find ways for human beings just like continue to be human beings just like continue to be human beings just like continue to be human beings and become more so. I like I This beings and become more so. I like I This beings and become more so. I like I This is one of my obsessions and it's not to is one of my obsessions and it's not to is one of my obsessions and it's not to change the subject, we can talk keep change the subject, we can talk keep change the subject, we can talk keep talking about men. talking about men. talking about men. But I think there are more things I think there are more things that that that everybody is going to need and ways in everybody is going to need and ways in everybody is going to need and ways in which we have turned modernity as a try which we have turned modernity as a try which we have turned modernity as a try to keep people useful in the ways the to keep people useful in the ways the to keep people useful in the ways the economy needed them to be useful. economy needed them to be useful. economy needed them to be useful. They're going to need to be rethought in They're going to need to be rethought in They're going to need to be rethought in more fundamental fashions, starting with more fundamental fashions, starting with more fundamental fashions, starting with education. education. education. And And And that actually has some specific male that actually has some specific male that actually has some specific male questions around it. I think Richard questions around it. I think Richard questions around it. I think Richard Reeves is right when he says that modern Reeves is right when he says that modern Reeves is right when he says that modern education is not well built for boys. education is not well built for boys. education is not well built for boys. But But But in a funny way, like the competition in a funny way, like the competition in a funny way, like the competition like we've been so used to framing this like we've been so used to framing this like we've been so used to framing this as a competition between men and women. as a competition between men and women. as a competition between men and women. That the possibility of framing at least That the possibility of framing at least That the possibility of framing at least some things correctly as competition some things correctly as competition some things correctly as competition between humans and machines between humans and machines between humans and machines opens up some avenues and pathways I opens up some avenues and pathways I opens up some avenues and pathways I think to talk about things that are more think to talk about things that are more think to talk about things that are more innate to humans of both sexes and also innate to humans of both sexes and also innate to humans of both sexes and also separately innate in both sexes that separately innate in both sexes that separately innate in both sexes that maybe would have been harder to do 5 maybe would have been harder to do 5 maybe would have been harder to do 5 years ago. years ago. years ago. >> It's suddenly going to be easier to >> It's suddenly going to be easier to >> It's suddenly going to be easier to unify if you have a common enemy because unify if you have a common enemy because unify if you have a common enemy because that happened previously. It was just that happened previously. It was just that happened previously. It was just between each other as opposed to between each other as opposed to between each other as opposed to together against something else. together against something else. together against something else. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, >> I look, it's it's interesting. It it >> I look, it's it's interesting. It it >> I look, it's it's interesting. It it definitely feels to me like definitely feels to me like definitely feels to me like I hope that it's not just lip service I hope that it's not just lip service I hope that it's not just lip service that's being paid to something because that's being paid to something because that's being paid to something because evidently in 2024 that was a evidently in 2024 that was a evidently in 2024 that was a blank space that because left untouched blank space that because left untouched blank space that because left untouched resulted in a lot of people going to the resulted in a lot of people going to the resulted in a lot of people going to the other side. Right? From the left. Like other side. Right? From the left. Like other side. Right? From the left. Like that young men really really seem to that young men really really seem to that young men really really seem to depart from they didn't feel like they depart from they didn't feel like they depart from they didn't feel like they were part of the What was that line that were part of the What was that line that were part of the What was that line that was a a group for was a a group for was a a group for uh underprivileged or underserved uh uh underprivileged or underserved uh uh underprivileged or underserved uh communities and there was 13 of them and communities and there was 13 of them and communities and there was 13 of them and the only one that was missing was men. the only one that was missing was men. the only one that was missing was men. That there was every different version That there was every different version That there was every different version of this is a Richard Reeves big big post of this is a Richard Reeves big big post of this is a Richard Reeves big big post about this. about this. about this. >> wait for that wasn't true. There was a >> wait for that wasn't true. There was a >> wait for that wasn't true. There was a metal There's a men for Harris thing metal There's a men for Harris thing metal There's a men for Harris thing that like there was a whole that like there was a whole that like there was a whole >> The white guys for Harris movement? >> The white guys for Harris movement? >> The white guys for Harris movement? >> that, right? >> that, right? >> that, right? >> Yeah. Uh >> Yeah. Uh >> Yeah. Uh I mix it mix feelings on I mix it mix feelings on I mix it mix feelings on >> I'm sure, but you you you live by the >> I'm sure, but you you you live by the >> I'm sure, but you you you live by the affinity group, you die by the affinity affinity group, you die by the affinity affinity group, you die by the affinity group. group. group. >> That's true. >> That's true. >> That's true. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> That is >> That is >> That is >> Can't be like there's no affinity groups >> Can't be like there's no affinity groups >> Can't be like there's no affinity groups for me and then they do one and for me and then they do one and for me and then they do one and >> Well, it's interesting on the uh what >> Well, it's interesting on the uh what >> Well, it's interesting on the uh what are the groups that are falling behind? are the groups that are falling behind? are the groups that are falling behind? Uh that was the issue that Richard took Uh that was the issue that Richard took Uh that was the issue that Richard took with it. I don't know what he thought with it. I don't know what he thought with it. I don't know what he thought about the white guys for Harris group. about the white guys for Harris group. about the white guys for Harris group. Um Um Um there was definitely some sort of there was definitely some sort of there was definitely some sort of prostrating of the self there that that prostrating of the self there that that prostrating of the self there that that felt a little strange. felt a little strange. felt a little strange. Uh I'm interested in as you sort of Uh I'm interested in as you sort of Uh I'm interested in as you sort of think about being somebody who have put think about being somebody who have put think about being somebody who have put has public opinions who is putting these has public opinions who is putting these has public opinions who is putting these sorts of things out on the internet. sorts of things out on the internet. sorts of things out on the internet. Having the changing landscape and having Having the changing landscape and having Having the changing landscape and having this sort of very long career of saying this sort of very long career of saying this sort of very long career of saying things that might have felt true at the things that might have felt true at the things that might have felt true at the time, but can be pointed to in future. time, but can be pointed to in future. time, but can be pointed to in future. How do you avoid being too deranged by How do you avoid being too deranged by How do you avoid being too deranged by the criticisms? the criticisms? the criticisms? >> By the criticisms? >> By the criticisms? >> By the criticisms? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh that's not where I thought you were >> Uh that's not where I thought you were >> Uh that's not where I thought you were going to go with that. Um going to go with that. Um going to go with that. Um I don't know. I think it's the same I don't know. I think it's the same I don't know. I think it's the same thing we were talking about earlier. You thing we were talking about earlier. You thing we were talking about earlier. You have a backstage. I have people whose have a backstage. I have people whose have a backstage. I have people whose reactions to things are a bellwether for reactions to things are a bellwether for reactions to things are a bellwether for me. And if there's a huge amount of me. And if there's a huge amount of me. And if there's a huge amount of critique of me at a certain moment and critique of me at a certain moment and critique of me at a certain moment and they're that happens every so often, I they're that happens every so often, I they're that happens every so often, I try to take it seriously and think about try to take it seriously and think about try to take it seriously and think about it. Doesn't mean I always change my it. Doesn't mean I always change my it. Doesn't mean I always change my opinion on it. opinion on it. opinion on it. But But But I think you need your own internal I think you need your own internal I think you need your own internal compass. Again, I will say I have pretty compass. Again, I will say I have pretty compass. Again, I will say I have pretty aggressive aggressive aggressive algorithmic media hygiene. algorithmic media hygiene. algorithmic media hygiene. And so I'm not out there looking for And so I'm not out there looking for And so I'm not out there looking for reaction. reaction. reaction. >> The reason I ask is, you know, we're >> The reason I ask is, you know, we're >> The reason I ask is, you know, we're talking about talking about talking about need for a degree of resilience. Degree need for a degree of resilience. Degree need for a degree of resilience. Degree of resilience of resilience of resilience in terms of individual agency now up in terms of individual agency now up in terms of individual agency now up against what's going to be happening against what's going to be happening against what's going to be happening with AI, already up against what's been with AI, already up against what's been with AI, already up against what's been happening with social media and screens happening with social media and screens happening with social media and screens and distraction and and distraction and and distraction and there's a great article by Ethan Strauss there's a great article by Ethan Strauss there's a great article by Ethan Strauss which is called criticism capture is which is called criticism capture is which is called criticism capture is more warping than audience capture. more warping than audience capture. more warping than audience capture. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> And >> And >> And >> I've not read that article but I think >> I've not read that article but I think >> I've not read that article but I think there's something really to that. there's something really to that. there's something really to that. >> It's >> It's >> It's one of the most canonical things I've one of the most canonical things I've one of the most canonical things I've read for the modern age. It's so good. read for the modern age. It's so good. read for the modern age. It's so good. And it basically says that And it basically says that And it basically says that people begin to change their positions people begin to change their positions people begin to change their positions more to either more to either more to either in advance defend against or as a in advance defend against or as a in advance defend against or as a reaction to the existing or potential reaction to the existing or potential reaction to the existing or potential criticisms that their work is going to criticisms that their work is going to criticisms that their work is going to receive. receive. receive. >> I think that it is a very tricky thing. >> I think that it is a very tricky thing. >> I think that it is a very tricky thing. I will say this for me. It is a very I will say this for me. It is a very I will say this for me. It is a very tricky thing tricky thing tricky thing to know the difference between absorbing critique absorbing critique and synthesizing good points from it and synthesizing good points from it and synthesizing good points from it and absorbing critique and not wanting and absorbing critique and not wanting and absorbing critique and not wanting to touch to touch to touch the the the stuff. stuff. stuff. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> And >> And >> And because they kind of feel the same because they kind of feel the same because they kind of feel the same inside. inside. inside. And And And I There's not like one way to do it. I There's not like one way to do it. I There's not like one way to do it. But But But I do think it is important. I try to I do think it is important. I try to I do think it is important. I try to think about this a lot. think about this a lot. think about this a lot. That That That critique is often a form of in-group critique is often a form of in-group critique is often a form of in-group disciplining. One thing I found over the years is that One thing I found over the years is that nobody is hated like an apostate. nobody is hated like an apostate. nobody is hated like an apostate. So the right So the right So the right you know, to start there you know, to start there you know, to start there and I know this from my friends there, and I know this from my friends there, and I know this from my friends there, it's like it's like it's like if you are on the right and you if you are on the right and you if you are on the right and you turn anti-Trump, the hell you get is turn anti-Trump, the hell you get is turn anti-Trump, the hell you get is nothing like what I get as a like nothing like what I get as a like nothing like what I get as a like forever anti-Trump. forever anti-Trump. forever anti-Trump. >> Openly anti-Trump. >> Openly anti-Trump. >> Openly anti-Trump. >> Um, nobody cares. In fact, I have >> Um, nobody cares. In fact, I have >> Um, nobody cares. In fact, I have perfectly good relations with people I perfectly good relations with people I perfectly good relations with people I have to report on for the Trump have to report on for the Trump have to report on for the Trump administration because they don't So administration because they don't So administration because they don't So they never saw me on their side. It's they never saw me on their side. It's they never saw me on their side. It's like that It's a stable relationship in like that It's a stable relationship in like that It's a stable relationship in a way. a way. a way. Uh Uh Uh similarly, on, you know, the left, like similarly, on, you know, the left, like similarly, on, you know, the left, like nobody's hated like an apostate. nobody's hated like an apostate. nobody's hated like an apostate. >> The small differences make the most >> The small differences make the most >> The small differences make the most >> Yeah, but but also >> Yeah, but but also >> Yeah, but but also it's a possibly effective action. it's a possibly effective action. it's a possibly effective action. >> Get in line. >> Get in line. >> Get in line. >> Yeah, get in line and maybe you will. >> Yeah, get in line and maybe you will. >> Yeah, get in line and maybe you will. And so you have to be very And so you have to be very And so you have to be very careful about that inside yourself. careful about that inside yourself. careful about that inside yourself. On the one hand, you want to be able to On the one hand, you want to be able to On the one hand, you want to be able to hear critique and on the other hand, you hear critique and on the other hand, you hear critique and on the other hand, you don't want to be scared of it. One of my don't want to be scared of it. One of my don't want to be scared of it. One of my practices is when there's a lot of practices is when there's a lot of practices is when there's a lot of critique of me critique of me critique of me I will often invite one of the critics I will often invite one of the critics I will often invite one of the critics on the show. on the show. on the show. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And just kind of talk it out and see >> And just kind of talk it out and see >> And just kind of talk it out and see where I agree and disagree. where I agree and disagree. where I agree and disagree. And if I can sort of pull it into the And if I can sort of pull it into the And if I can sort of pull it into the spaces where I can deliberate about it. spaces where I can deliberate about it. spaces where I can deliberate about it. But if all I'm doing is exposing myself But if all I'm doing is exposing myself But if all I'm doing is exposing myself to the to the to the roar of anger at a moment that's getting roar of anger at a moment that's getting roar of anger at a moment that's getting algorithmically boosted, I don't That's algorithmically boosted, I don't That's algorithmically boosted, I don't That's not constructive. I will say the other not constructive. I will say the other not constructive. I will say the other thing that I'll sometimes do thing that I'll sometimes do thing that I'll sometimes do is I find it's quite important for me in is I find it's quite important for me in is I find it's quite important for me in terms of how terms of how terms of how thoughtfully I can integrate feedback thoughtfully I can integrate feedback thoughtfully I can integrate feedback when and in what context I absorb it. when and in what context I absorb it. when and in what context I absorb it. So So So being at dinner being at dinner being at dinner and and and getting pinged on my phone getting pinged on my phone getting pinged on my phone where somebody sends me a mean article where somebody sends me a mean article where somebody sends me a mean article about me. Sometimes friends are like, about me. Sometimes friends are like, about me. Sometimes friends are like, "Did you see these terrible things "Did you see these terrible things "Did you see these terrible things people are writing about you?" And it's people are writing about you?" And it's people are writing about you?" And it's like, "Thank you. like, "Thank you. like, "Thank you. Um, they didn't have my personal, you Um, they didn't have my personal, you Um, they didn't have my personal, you know, know, know, >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> way to reach me, but you do. And now >> way to reach me, but you do. And now >> way to reach me, but you do. And now you've brought it to my attention. you've brought it to my attention. you've brought it to my attention. >> Um, at dinner. >> Um, at dinner. >> Um, at dinner. >> Yeah, you're a conduit. >> Yeah, you're a conduit. >> Yeah, you're a conduit. >> Yeah, I didn't need to be the conduit. I >> Yeah, I didn't need to be the conduit. I >> Yeah, I didn't need to be the conduit. I know people are mad at me. I'm aware. know people are mad at me. I'm aware. know people are mad at me. I'm aware. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh, >> Uh, >> Uh, but the thing that I'll now do is but the thing that I'll now do is but the thing that I'll now do is if there's stuff if there's stuff if there's stuff collecting collecting collecting I will like put it together and I will I will like put it together and I will I will like put it together and I will go print it all out or if it's videos, go print it all out or if it's videos, go print it all out or if it's videos, you know, watch a video you know, watch a video you know, watch a video >> You create a portfolio of criticisms. >> You create a portfolio of criticisms. >> You create a portfolio of criticisms. >> a.m. when I'm resourced and have energy >> a.m. when I'm resourced and have energy >> a.m. when I'm resourced and have energy >> Resilience is highest. >> Resilience is highest. >> Resilience is highest. >> and can think about it during the day as >> and can think about it during the day as >> and can think about it during the day as opposed to at the end of the day when opposed to at the end of the day when opposed to at the end of the day when I'm like trying to transition between I'm like trying to transition between I'm like trying to transition between the subway and my kids or, you know, the subway and my kids or, you know, the subway and my kids or, you know, dinner and bed, whatever it might be. dinner and bed, whatever it might be. dinner and bed, whatever it might be. So, it's like everything else, right? So, it's like everything else, right? So, it's like everything else, right? You need a certain You need a certain You need a certain If you're getting a lot of it, I think If you're getting a lot of it, I think If you're getting a lot of it, I think you need a certain level of of you need a certain level of of you need a certain level of of discipline and you need to walk this discipline and you need to walk this discipline and you need to walk this balancing line between not getting balancing line between not getting balancing line between not getting overwhelmed and not shutting out. overwhelmed and not shutting out. overwhelmed and not shutting out. And I'm not saying I always do it well. And I'm not saying I always do it well. And I'm not saying I always do it well. You like I like I'm not it's not a thing You like I like I'm not it's not a thing You like I like I'm not it's not a thing I would say I've mastered. I would say I've mastered. I would say I've mastered. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Yeah, you've Yeah, you've Yeah, you've it's it's fascinating for me to see it's it's fascinating for me to see it's it's fascinating for me to see somebody who somebody who somebody who I I I'm just however I I I'm just however I I I'm just however cantankerous and controversial and cantankerous and controversial and cantankerous and controversial and inflammatory some of the topics that I inflammatory some of the topics that I inflammatory some of the topics that I talk about are or have been talk about are or have been talk about are or have been none of them ever come close to none of them ever come close to none of them ever come close to politics. politics. politics. Politics is always going to be ground Politics is always going to be ground Politics is always going to be ground zero for this, right? It's always going zero for this, right? It's always going zero for this, right? It's always going to be ground zero and just the uh to be ground zero and just the uh to be ground zero and just the uh the preparedness to step into that over the preparedness to step into that over the preparedness to step into that over and over again for me is is pretty and over again for me is is pretty and over again for me is is pretty fascinating. I think in the past I've fascinating. I think in the past I've fascinating. I think in the past I've heard you describe journalism as heard you describe journalism as heard you describe journalism as organized curiosity. Given Given how the last few years have gone how the last few years have gone how the last few years have gone I I I remember as well you talking about I I I remember as well you talking about I I I remember as well you talking about Vox on the idea that um better Vox on the idea that um better Vox on the idea that um better information leads to um better politics. information leads to um better politics. information leads to um better politics. Do you still believe that? Do you still Do you still believe that? Do you still Do you still believe that? Do you still believe that now? believe that now? believe that now? I'd probably alter it a little bit to I'd probably alter it a little bit to I'd probably alter it a little bit to say that um it's not just information, say that um it's not just information, say that um it's not just information, it's the information environment. it's the information environment. it's the information environment. Because Because Because it's hard to say, did we get better or it's hard to say, did we get better or it's hard to say, did we get better or worse information? What we got was more worse information? What we got was more worse information? What we got was more information. information. information. Uh and then the way the information is Uh and then the way the information is Uh and then the way the information is sorted algorithmically and other things, sorted algorithmically and other things, sorted algorithmically and other things, you can have better information than at you can have better information than at you can have better information than at any time in history any time in history any time in history and worse. and worse. and worse. And we did. And we did. And we did. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And so the way I would say it is I do >> And so the way I would say it is I do >> And so the way I would say it is I do think better and worse information think better and worse information think better and worse information environments, attention environments, I environments, attention environments, I environments, attention environments, I really do take that layer as we've been really do take that layer as we've been really do take that layer as we've been talking about pretty seriously. talking about pretty seriously. talking about pretty seriously. But is it a like a direct thing? I don't is it a like a direct thing? I don't know. I I will say one of the things know. I I will say one of the things know. I I will say one of the things that has weirdly made me very hopeful that has weirdly made me very hopeful that has weirdly made me very hopeful about how politics still can work is the about how politics still can work is the about how politics still can work is the experience I've had on abundance. And experience I've had on abundance. And experience I've had on abundance. And the point is not that just like me and the point is not that just like me and the point is not that just like me and Derek did this. Abundance is Derek did this. Abundance is Derek did this. Abundance is synthesizing things like the YIMBY synthesizing things like the YIMBY synthesizing things like the YIMBY movement, the yes in my backyard housing movement, the yes in my backyard housing movement, the yes in my backyard housing movement. It's synthesizing where I movement. It's synthesizing where I movement. It's synthesizing where I think some of the smartest green groups think some of the smartest green groups think some of the smartest green groups went on decarbonization and recognizing went on decarbonization and recognizing went on decarbonization and recognizing we need to do that by accelerating green we need to do that by accelerating green we need to do that by accelerating green technology and then figure out how to technology and then figure out how to technology and then figure out how to deploy it at scale. deploy it at scale. deploy it at scale. There were a lot of people and ideas and There were a lot of people and ideas and There were a lot of people and ideas and so forth that we were kind of putting so forth that we were kind of putting so forth that we were kind of putting into that. And I have watched into that. And I have watched into that. And I have watched I have watched in a matter of a couple I have watched in a matter of a couple I have watched in a matter of a couple of years ideas that were quite marginal. of years ideas that were quite marginal. of years ideas that were quite marginal. I mean, the first piece on this I did I mean, the first piece on this I did I mean, the first piece on this I did before we called it abundance, before we called it abundance, before we called it abundance, I called it supply side progressivism. I called it supply side progressivism. I called it supply side progressivism. Then I got to liberals and fields. Yeah, Then I got to liberals and fields. Yeah, Then I got to liberals and fields. Yeah, right. Then liberals and fields which is right. Then liberals and fields which is right. Then liberals and fields which is pretty good and then Derek got pretty good and then Derek got pretty good and then Derek got abundance. abundance. abundance. But the point was that But the point was that But the point was that the left didn't talk about supply. We the left didn't talk about supply. We the left didn't talk about supply. We only talked about demand. We talked only talked about demand. We talked only talked about demand. We talked about how to redistribute. We talked about how to redistribute. We talked about how to redistribute. We talked about how to subsidize, which are about how to subsidize, which are about how to subsidize, which are important things, but we didn't talk important things, but we didn't talk important things, but we didn't talk about how to create more of the goods we about how to create more of the goods we about how to create more of the goods we needed. Now we do all the time. needed. Now we do all the time. needed. Now we do all the time. So like there was a big intellectual So like there was a big intellectual So like there was a big intellectual argument, again, not just mine, and it argument, again, not just mine, and it argument, again, not just mine, and it worked. worked. worked. And now everybody from And now everybody from And now everybody from Newsom to Maura Healey to Wes Moore to Newsom to Maura Healey to Wes Moore to Newsom to Maura Healey to Wes Moore to Momdani to everybody, right? Like it's I Momdani to everybody, right? Like it's I Momdani to everybody, right? Like it's I just did a California governor's forum just did a California governor's forum just did a California governor's forum where the top five Democrats in the where the top five Democrats in the where the top five Democrats in the governor's race did a housing forum with governor's race did a housing forum with governor's race did a housing forum with me. me. me. And they were all just talking about how And they were all just talking about how And they were all just talking about how to make it easier to build and how to to make it easier to build and how to to make it easier to build and how to cut construction costs. So, like I have cut construction costs. So, like I have cut construction costs. So, like I have watched watched watched good information, good argumentation. good information, good argumentation. good information, good argumentation. There's a RAND study about how much it There's a RAND study about how much it There's a RAND study about how much it costs to construct per square foot in costs to construct per square foot in costs to construct per square foot in California, Texas, Colorado. They were California, Texas, Colorado. They were California, Texas, Colorado. They were all familiar with it. This one study had all familiar with it. This one study had all familiar with it. This one study had been incredibly influential on all of been incredibly influential on all of been incredibly influential on all of us. us. us. So, it can happen. So, it can happen. So, it can happen. >> What are you paying the most attention >> What are you paying the most attention >> What are you paying the most attention to over the next couple of years? to over the next couple of years? to over the next couple of years? >> I mean, AI. >> I mean, AI. >> I mean, AI. I'm trying to help I'm trying to help I'm trying to help create a better liberalism more capable create a better liberalism more capable create a better liberalism more capable of competing with illiberalism. of competing with illiberalism. of competing with illiberalism. I'm trying to create a better liberalism I'm trying to create a better liberalism I'm trying to create a better liberalism more capable of competing with more capable of competing with more capable of competing with illiberalism. illiberalism. illiberalism. I obviously pay a lot of attention I obviously pay a lot of attention I obviously pay a lot of attention politics. I cover Israel-Palestine a politics. I cover Israel-Palestine a politics. I cover Israel-Palestine a lot, which is a just a tough ass issue. lot, which is a just a tough ass issue. lot, which is a just a tough ass issue. Um There's a bit of a mix of There's a bit of a mix of I'm paying attention to everything you I'm paying attention to everything you I'm paying attention to everything you would think I'm trying to pay attention would think I'm trying to pay attention would think I'm trying to pay attention to and also the constant curves in the to and also the constant curves in the to and also the constant curves in the road. Right? Did I expect us to be road. Right? Did I expect us to be road. Right? Did I expect us to be spending the year spending the year spending the year talking about war in Iran? I didn't talking about war in Iran? I didn't talking about war in Iran? I didn't really. really. really. Uh but now we are and like that's part Uh but now we are and like that's part Uh but now we are and like that's part of what I'm paying attention to and so of what I'm paying attention to and so of what I'm paying attention to and so more things will happen that I'm not more things will happen that I'm not more things will happen that I'm not expecting and seeing. My work is a mix expecting and seeing. My work is a mix expecting and seeing. My work is a mix of being of being of being connected to the news, connected to the news, connected to the news, connected to longer range intellectual connected to longer range intellectual connected to longer range intellectual efforts in politics, and then connected efforts in politics, and then connected efforts in politics, and then connected to to to uh shows that are more about uh shows that are more about uh shows that are more about the point of all this, which is a more the point of all this, which is a more the point of all this, which is a more like beautiful and humane world with like beautiful and humane world with like beautiful and humane world with novelists and meditators and people like novelists and meditators and people like novelists and meditators and people like that. And so, it's all like for me it's that. And so, it's all like for me it's that. And so, it's all like for me it's this constant this constant this constant uh uh uh calibrating of am I too far in this calibrating of am I too far in this calibrating of am I too far in this direction, too much news, not enough direction, too much news, not enough direction, too much news, not enough ideas, too many ideas, not enough news, ideas, too many ideas, not enough news, ideas, too many ideas, not enough news, too much of politics and not enough too much of politics and not enough too much of politics and not enough humanism, humanism, humanism, and you know, there's no way to do it and you know, there's no way to do it and you know, there's no way to do it but by feel and by but by feel and by but by feel and by attending to the moment. attending to the moment. attending to the moment. >> Sounds terrifyingly human. >> Sounds terrifyingly human. >> Sounds terrifyingly human. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> So, I it does it does it sound it sounds >> So, I it does it does it sound it sounds >> So, I it does it does it sound it sounds like like like it sounds it sounds it sounds unusually in touch, I think, with what unusually in touch, I think, with what unusually in touch, I think, with what people's experiences of life are and people's experiences of life are and people's experiences of life are and certainly certainly certainly being on the outside and watching sort being on the outside and watching sort being on the outside and watching sort of what goes on with politics, so much of what goes on with politics, so much of what goes on with politics, so much of it seems to be this very sterile of it seems to be this very sterile of it seems to be this very sterile detachment from what people's normal detachment from what people's normal detachment from what people's normal day-to-day lives are like. The reporting day-to-day lives are like. The reporting day-to-day lives are like. The reporting on it, too, also doesn't take that for on it, too, also doesn't take that for on it, too, also doesn't take that for as if people wake up on a morning and as if people wake up on a morning and as if people wake up on a morning and all that they're doing is mainlining all that they're doing is mainlining all that they're doing is mainlining politics and political governance into politics and political governance into politics and political governance into their veins. their veins. their veins. >> You really don't want to let the >> You really don't want to let the >> You really don't want to let the algorithms replace your intuition. algorithms replace your intuition. algorithms replace your intuition. So, I mean So, I mean So, I mean that I think a lot of people, because that I think a lot of people, because that I think a lot of people, because they give their attention over to the they give their attention over to the they give their attention over to the algorithms, algorithms, algorithms, and then the algorithms decide what they and then the algorithms decide what they and then the algorithms decide what they want to see. want to see. want to see. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> That that process I just talked about >> That that process I just talked about >> That that process I just talked about where you're constantly calibrating and where you're constantly calibrating and where you're constantly calibrating and recalibrating and really trying to think recalibrating and really trying to think recalibrating and really trying to think about what am I attending to. about what am I attending to. about what am I attending to. Well, if you if the way you get Well, if you if the way you get Well, if you if the way you get information is you open up X in the information is you open up X in the information is you open up X in the morning or Instagram or TikTok or morning or Instagram or TikTok or morning or Instagram or TikTok or whatever, whatever, whatever, the algorithms have decided what you're the algorithms have decided what you're the algorithms have decided what you're attending to. attending to. attending to. Um there is much more room for intuition Um there is much more room for intuition Um there is much more room for intuition when you're reading a print newspaper. when you're reading a print newspaper. when you're reading a print newspaper. You looked around and looked at what you You looked around and looked at what you You looked around and looked at what you were interested in and turned the page were interested in and turned the page were interested in and turned the page and maybe saw something you didn't think and maybe saw something you didn't think and maybe saw something you didn't think you were interested in, but you were, you were interested in, but you were, you were interested in, but you were, and and and I you were saying it it it sounds very I you were saying it it it sounds very I you were saying it it it sounds very human. human. human. It's all human in a way. We're all It's all human in a way. We're all It's all human in a way. We're all humans doing it, though, you know, humans doing it, though, you know, humans doing it, though, you know, I think I think I think different spaces make us feel less that different spaces make us feel less that different spaces make us feel less that way. way. way. But I try to create a lot of space But I try to create a lot of space But I try to create a lot of space for my own judgment to exist. for my own judgment to exist. for my own judgment to exist. And to like feel what different things And to like feel what different things And to like feel what different things feel like. Uh feel like. Uh feel like. Uh one thing that I have one thing that I have one thing that I have one way I one way I one way I believe my own mind works differently believe my own mind works differently believe my own mind works differently than I did 10 years ago, is I just am than I did 10 years ago, is I just am than I did 10 years ago, is I just am much more in touch with how embodied it much more in touch with how embodied it much more in touch with how embodied it is. is. is. And the signals come from the body, not And the signals come from the body, not And the signals come from the body, not just the mind. Including in a I don't just the mind. Including in a I don't just the mind. Including in a I don't know how much you feel this way, but I know how much you feel this way, but I know how much you feel this way, but I was thinking about this in was thinking about this in was thinking about this in podcasts. podcasts. podcasts. I have a questions document. I have a questions document. I have a questions document. I don't follow it. I don't follow it. I don't follow it. How do I know where I'm going? It's like How do I know where I'm going? It's like How do I know where I'm going? It's like my skin prickles. my skin prickles. my skin prickles. What the [ __ ] is that? What the [ __ ] is that? What the [ __ ] is that? And yet And yet And yet what makes me a good podcaster is not what makes me a good podcaster is not what makes me a good podcaster is not the questions document, it's the skin the questions document, it's the skin the questions document, it's the skin prickling. prickling. prickling. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> And trying to become more and more and >> And trying to become more and more and >> And trying to become more and more and more in touch with that over time. more in touch with that over time. more in touch with that over time. Again, these are the kinds of things Again, these are the kinds of things Again, these are the kinds of things that I wish school would do more of. that I wish school would do more of. that I wish school would do more of. It's like I want to teach my sons how to It's like I want to teach my sons how to It's like I want to teach my sons how to listen to their bodies. It's very listen to their bodies. It's very listen to their bodies. It's very difficult to teach instinct, to teach difficult to teach instinct, to teach difficult to teach instinct, to teach taste. It's not scalable. It's going to taste. It's not scalable. It's going to taste. It's not scalable. It's going to be different and idiosyncratic for every be different and idiosyncratic for every be different and idiosyncratic for every person. person. person. Uh and yet is Uh and yet is Uh and yet is the the the one of the most, if not the single most one of the most, if not the single most one of the most, if not the single most important thing that you can continue to important thing that you can continue to important thing that you can continue to develop. But I think you can teach and I develop. But I think you can teach and I develop. But I think you can teach and I think you can help people cultivate think you can help people cultivate think you can help people cultivate the connection those things need to come the connection those things need to come the connection those things need to come through. Even just explaining the through. Even just explaining the through. Even just explaining the primacy of it. primacy of it. primacy of it. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Like this is something that's important >> Like this is something that's important >> Like this is something that's important that you should pay attention to. that you should pay attention to. that you should pay attention to. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Do not outsource your taste to the AI. >> Do not outsource your taste to the AI. >> Do not outsource your taste to the AI. >> Yeah, but you have to feel, right? This >> Yeah, but you have to feel, right? This >> Yeah, but you have to feel, right? This is one of the worries I have about a lot is one of the worries I have about a lot is one of the worries I have about a lot of things is they disembody us. of things is they disembody us. of things is they disembody us. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> And you I I never know less about my >> And you I I never know less about my >> And you I I never know less about my body body body than when I'm really scrolling. than when I'm really scrolling. than when I'm really scrolling. Do you ever Do you ever do Do you ever Do you ever do Do you ever Do you ever do [clears throat] that where you like [clears throat] that where you like [clears throat] that where you like move from a paper book to the to your move from a paper book to the to your move from a paper book to the to your phone, which I will sometimes have both phone, which I will sometimes have both phone, which I will sometimes have both out, and you can really feel the out, and you can really feel the out, and you can really feel the difference, like how much I'm in touch difference, like how much I'm in touch difference, like how much I'm in touch with the body on the physical, like with the body on the physical, like with the body on the physical, like print, slow, versus here. print, slow, versus here. print, slow, versus here. You really do become a brain in a vat. You really do become a brain in a vat. You really do become a brain in a vat. And I'm not saying it's all bad. I don't And I'm not saying it's all bad. I don't And I'm not saying it's all bad. I don't want to be overly want to be overly want to be overly uh a Luddite here. I have a phone. I uh a Luddite here. I have a phone. I uh a Luddite here. I have a phone. I have a computer. I work on the internet. have a computer. I work on the internet. have a computer. I work on the internet. Uh but but I do think Uh but but I do think Uh but but I do think yeah, developing intuition, developing yeah, developing intuition, developing yeah, developing intuition, developing taste, that's a very personal, very taste, that's a very personal, very taste, that's a very personal, very mysterious thing. mysterious thing. mysterious thing. But developing the ability But developing the ability But developing the ability to listen to what's happening inside of to listen to what's happening inside of to listen to what's happening inside of yourself, yourself, yourself, that through meditation and movement that through meditation and movement that through meditation and movement practice and other things, it's like I practice and other things, it's like I practice and other things, it's like I just would like to give people, kids, a just would like to give people, kids, a just would like to give people, kids, a lot more meta training lot more meta training lot more meta training in their attention and mind and, you in their attention and mind and, you in their attention and mind and, you know, I think we do we're over-torqued know, I think we do we're over-torqued know, I think we do we're over-torqued on information on information on information and um need to push, and um need to push, and um need to push, particularly in this era, harder, or I particularly in this era, harder, or I particularly in this era, harder, or I would like to see us push harder would like to see us push harder would like to see us push harder on on on I don't even know what to call it. Um I don't even know what to call it. Um I don't even know what to call it. Um like the art of thinking. like the art of thinking. like the art of thinking. The art of feeling just as much. The art of feeling just as much. The art of feeling just as much. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I always think that going back to some >> I always think that going back to some >> I always think that going back to some of the, you know, trends in podcasting a of the, you know, trends in podcasting a of the, you know, trends in podcasting a few years back. few years back. few years back. Uh Uh Uh when I guess it was Ben Shapiro's line, when I guess it was Ben Shapiro's line, when I guess it was Ben Shapiro's line, you know, facts don't care about your you know, facts don't care about your you know, facts don't care about your feelings. feelings. feelings. I always thought it was a big I was I always thought it was a big I was I always thought it was a big I was really disagreed with that line. really disagreed with that line. really disagreed with that line. Cuz it's not that facts care about your Cuz it's not that facts care about your Cuz it's not that facts care about your feelings. Facts don't care about feelings. Facts don't care about feelings. Facts don't care about anything. They're fact. anything. They're fact. anything. They're fact. But you should care about your feelings. But you should care about your feelings. But you should care about your feelings. Feelings are very intelligent. Feelings are very intelligent. Feelings are very intelligent. And the dismissal of them And the dismissal of them And the dismissal of them is which is not obviously just a a Ben is which is not obviously just a a Ben is which is not obviously just a a Ben thing, it's a mistake, right? You want thing, it's a mistake, right? You want thing, it's a mistake, right? You want to be in touch with the way things feel. to be in touch with the way things feel. to be in touch with the way things feel. There's a lot of intelligence in that. There's a lot of intelligence in that. There's a lot of intelligence in that. And again, you know, the AI can't feel And again, you know, the AI can't feel And again, you know, the AI can't feel the way things feel, but you can. And so the way things feel, but you can. And so the way things feel, but you can. And so like that's a like that's a like that's a capacity to cultivate. capacity to cultivate. capacity to cultivate. >> It's fascinating. I had I had a >> It's fascinating. I had I had a >> It's fascinating. I had I had a conversation with uh Alex O'Connor, and conversation with uh Alex O'Connor, and conversation with uh Alex O'Connor, and he was explaining how he was explaining how he was explaining how the sort of modern world of rationalism, the sort of modern world of rationalism, the sort of modern world of rationalism, focus on science, uh trying to uh focus on science, uh trying to uh focus on science, uh trying to uh optimize your thinking tools, and the optimize your thinking tools, and the optimize your thinking tools, and the dismissal of religion, story, mythology, dismissal of religion, story, mythology, dismissal of religion, story, mythology, narrative, narrative arc, narrative, narrative arc, narrative, narrative arc, personification, uh was getting people personification, uh was getting people personification, uh was getting people to reject that that felt most real to to reject that that felt most real to to reject that that felt most real to them them them in place of something that you told them in place of something that you told them in place of something that you told them was more real, but felt as fake as it was more real, but felt as fake as it was more real, but felt as fake as it could be. Like if you see facts and could be. Like if you see facts and could be. Like if you see facts and figures, they're not as compelling as a figures, they're not as compelling as a figures, they're not as compelling as a story of a person that this affected. story of a person that this affected. story of a person that this affected. And you can just continue to scale that And you can just continue to scale that And you can just continue to scale that all the way up to Well, you can try and all the way up to Well, you can try and all the way up to Well, you can try and reverse engineer virtue from first reverse engineer virtue from first reverse engineer virtue from first principles, but it's like actually a principles, but it's like actually a principles, but it's like actually a really hard it's a very really hard it's a very really hard it's a very difficult and clunky thing to do as difficult and clunky thing to do as difficult and clunky thing to do as opposed to uh opposed to uh opposed to uh >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> you know, when I did I you know, when I >> you know, when I did I you know, when I >> you know, when I did I you know, when I behaved in that way, I didn't feel good. behaved in that way, I didn't feel good. behaved in that way, I didn't feel good. I didn't feel good when I said when I I didn't feel good when I said when I I didn't feel good when I said when I lied to that person as opposed to having lied to that person as opposed to having lied to that person as opposed to having to be able to to be able to to be able to uh show me your proof of why lying is uh show me your proof of why lying is uh show me your proof of why lying is wrong wrong wrong >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> on this whiteboard. Uh it's it's way >> on this whiteboard. Uh it's it's way >> on this whiteboard. Uh it's it's way harder. And uh yeah, I harder. And uh yeah, I harder. And uh yeah, I I'm completely on board. I think I'm completely on board. I think I'm completely on board. I think the the the demand is going to be for people to feel demand is going to be for people to feel demand is going to be for people to feel more. more. more. >> Although I would take this in both >> Although I would take this in both >> Although I would take this in both directions actually. We mentioned Pema directions actually. We mentioned Pema directions actually. We mentioned Pema Chödrön who's a Buddhist teacher was Chödrön who's a Buddhist teacher was Chödrön who's a Buddhist teacher was recently on my show and I'm a very big recently on my show and I'm a very big recently on my show and I'm a very big fan of a lot of her work. And her work fan of a lot of her work. And her work fan of a lot of her work. And her work is very much about tolerating the is very much about tolerating the is very much about tolerating the feelings we don't want to tolerate. feelings we don't want to tolerate. feelings we don't want to tolerate. And one of the reasons I think it's very And one of the reasons I think it's very And one of the reasons I think it's very important to be in touch with what important to be in touch with what important to be in touch with what you're feeling is not always because you you're feeling is not always because you you're feeling is not always because you should listen to it. should listen to it. should listen to it. Sometimes Sometimes Sometimes actually I think so much of life actually I think so much of life actually I think so much of life is driven by these little embodied is driven by these little embodied is driven by these little embodied contractions we barely even notice. But contractions we barely even notice. But contractions we barely even notice. But because we don't even notice that because we don't even notice that because we don't even notice that they're happening they're happening they're happening we follow them unthinkingly. we follow them unthinkingly. we follow them unthinkingly. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And so it it's such a weird balance. >> And so it it's such a weird balance. >> And so it it's such a weird balance. On the one hand I completely agree with On the one hand I completely agree with On the one hand I completely agree with you. You said it was Alex O'Connor? What you. You said it was Alex O'Connor? What you. You said it was Alex O'Connor? What he was saying. he was saying. he was saying. On the other hand of course there are On the other hand of course there are On the other hand of course there are many many many times when the way the many many many times when the way the many many many times when the way the world works violates what feels true to world works violates what feels true to world works violates what feels true to us. us. us. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And so >> And so >> And so it it it having the information is there so you having the information is there so you having the information is there so you can make good judgments about it. But if can make good judgments about it. But if can make good judgments about it. But if you don't know that that information is you don't know that that information is you don't know that that information is happening in you you're actually going happening in you you're actually going happening in you you're actually going to be much easier much more easily moved to be much easier much more easily moved to be much easier much more easily moved by it than if you do. by it than if you do. by it than if you do. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Right. I have become one thing that I'm >> Right. I have become one thing that I'm >> Right. I have become one thing that I'm proud of myself because it has been very proud of myself because it has been very proud of myself because it has been very hard work for me. Like genuinely hard hard work for me. Like genuinely hard hard work for me. Like genuinely hard work for me and particularly in personal work for me and particularly in personal work for me and particularly in personal relationships. relationships. relationships. I have become better at knowing I have become better at knowing I have become better at knowing that I am uncomfortable. that I am uncomfortable. that I am uncomfortable. And so I don't run away from it. And so I don't run away from it. And so I don't run away from it. But when I didn't know it But when I didn't know it But when I didn't know it I was much more led around by it because I was much more led around by it because I was much more led around by it because I just knew I didn't want to be there. I just knew I didn't want to be there. I just knew I didn't want to be there. But I didn't take time to sit in the But I didn't take time to sit in the But I didn't take time to sit in the space space space cuz I wasn't like fully feeling it. cuz I wasn't like fully feeling it. cuz I wasn't like fully feeling it. >> to it. >> to it. >> to it. >> reacting to it. So that that to me is >> reacting to it. So that that to me is >> reacting to it. So that that to me is like some of the the genius of getting like some of the the genius of getting like some of the the genius of getting better at listening to your own body you better at listening to your own body you better at listening to your own body you actually know if something's happening actually know if something's happening actually know if something's happening that that that you're going to need to sit through you're going to need to sit through you're going to need to sit through rather than react to. rather than react to. rather than react to. >> I can. As we climb >> I can. As we climb >> I can. As we climb >> ladies and gentlemen >> ladies and gentlemen >> ladies and gentlemen >> as we Thank you. >> as we Thank you. >> as we Thank you. >> Okay. What's coming up next? >> Okay. What's coming up next? >> Okay. What's coming up next? >> Uh who did I just tape up? Just taped >> Uh who did I just tape up? Just taped >> Uh who did I just tape up? Just taped with Ian Bremmer. Had a great with Ian Bremmer. Had a great with Ian Bremmer. Had a great conversation about conversation about conversation about uh uh uh the crazed state of the world. the crazed state of the world. the crazed state of the world. >> That could be a title for pretty much >> That could be a title for pretty much >> That could be a title for pretty much everything that you're doing at the everything that you're doing at the everything that you're doing at the moment. I appreciate you man. Thank you moment. I appreciate you man. Thank you moment. I appreciate you man. Thank you very much. All right. See you next time very much. All right. See you next time very much. All right. See you next time everyone. everyone. everyone. Dude. Dude. Dude. Congratulations, you made it to the end Congratulations, you made it to the end Congratulations, you made it to the end of a full podcast episode. You are not of a full podcast episode. You are not of a full podcast episode. You are not so TikTok brain that you've completely so TikTok brain that you've completely so TikTok brain that you've completely dissolved into nothingness. [music] dissolved into nothingness. [music] dissolved into nothingness. [music] Why not watch another one? Why not watch another one? Why not watch another one? Right here. Right here. Right here. Go on. Go on. Go on. Press it.