Inside Palantir: Building Software That Matters | Shyam Sankar on a16z

World events remind us that there is World events remind us that there is actually evil out there. Just horrendous actually evil out there. Just horrendous actually evil out there. Just horrendous barbarism is still possible. When a barbarism is still possible. When a barbarism is still possible. When a country goes to war, it's not enough to country goes to war, it's not enough to country goes to war, it's not enough to just have the department of war fight just have the department of war fight just have the department of war fight these wars. It is actually the whole these wars. It is actually the whole these wars. It is actually the whole country. The idea that somehow the country. The idea that somehow the country. The idea that somehow the American people are not capable of this. American people are not capable of this. American people are not capable of this. It beggars belief. I think our biggest It beggars belief. I think our biggest It beggars belief. I think our biggest risk as a country is suicide, not risk as a country is suicide, not risk as a country is suicide, not homicide. homicide. homicide. >> How do we win the AI race, particularly >> How do we win the AI race, particularly >> How do we win the AI race, particularly as it moves towards more physical AI and as it moves towards more physical AI and as it moves towards more physical AI and robotics, etc. robotics, etc. robotics, etc. >> The things that we did to win in the >> The things that we did to win in the >> The things that we did to win in the past, we accidentally turned our back past, we accidentally turned our back past, we accidentally turned our back on. And there's an opportunity to on. And there's an opportunity to on. And there's an opportunity to reclaim that with vigor. In the moment reclaim that with vigor. In the moment reclaim that with vigor. In the moment right now, you could say we need to right now, you could say we need to right now, you could say we need to build more weapons. We need to do this. build more weapons. We need to do this. build more weapons. We need to do this. We have Yes. But the most important We have Yes. But the most important We have Yes. But the most important thing we need to do is So, Katherine, when we were talking So, Katherine, when we were talking about guests that we had to add on, Sean about guests that we had to add on, Sean about guests that we had to add on, Sean was at the the the top of your list. Wh was at the the the top of your list. Wh was at the the the top of your list. Wh what what what why was that? what what what why was that? what what what why was that? >> Yeah. Well, I you know, it's it's I >> Yeah. Well, I you know, it's it's I >> Yeah. Well, I you know, it's it's I think people are, you know, after the think people are, you know, after the think people are, you know, after the Jeremy Stern profile and Colossus and a Jeremy Stern profile and Colossus and a Jeremy Stern profile and Colossus and a lot of um I think you know, stories that lot of um I think you know, stories that lot of um I think you know, stories that have come out recently or podcasts that have come out recently or podcasts that have come out recently or podcasts that have come out about Sham. Um it he he's have come out about Sham. Um it he he's have come out about Sham. Um it he he's one of these people that if you were in one of these people that if you were in one of these people that if you were in the know several years ago, you knew he the know several years ago, you knew he the know several years ago, you knew he was the OG like fixer for everyone. You was the OG like fixer for everyone. You was the OG like fixer for everyone. You know, I I think Trey Stevens, who's you know, I I think Trey Stevens, who's you know, I I think Trey Stevens, who's you know, the co-founder of of Andreal, came know, the co-founder of of Andreal, came know, the co-founder of of Andreal, came out um on Twitter and said like he's out um on Twitter and said like he's out um on Twitter and said like he's single-handedly responsible for my single-handedly responsible for my single-handedly responsible for my career. And I, you know, John Doyle, so career. And I, you know, John Doyle, so career. And I, you know, John Doyle, so many of our founders have pointed to many of our founders have pointed to many of our founders have pointed to Sham as the person who made their career Sham as the person who made their career Sham as the person who made their career and introduced them to Palunteer, and introduced them to Palunteer, and introduced them to Palunteer, supported them in Palunteer, but also supported them in Palunteer, but also supported them in Palunteer, but also sort of um, you know, gave them wings to sort of um, you know, gave them wings to sort of um, you know, gave them wings to fly away from Palanteer and to start fly away from Palanteer and to start fly away from Palanteer and to start something new. And you hear that story something new. And you hear that story something new. And you hear that story time and time and time again. But it time and time and time again. But it time and time and time again. But it wasn't until, and Eric, you and I were wasn't until, and Eric, you and I were wasn't until, and Eric, you and I were talking about this, it wasn't until a talking about this, it wasn't until a talking about this, it wasn't until a couple years ago that I think Sham couple years ago that I think Sham couple years ago that I think Sham actually became more of a public figure. actually became more of a public figure. actually became more of a public figure. He was sort of the behindthescenes guy, He was sort of the behindthescenes guy, He was sort of the behindthescenes guy, the behind-the-scenes picture. Um, and I the behind-the-scenes picture. Um, and I the behind-the-scenes picture. Um, and I think the thing that really changed it think the thing that really changed it think the thing that really changed it was Sham, and I'd love to to talk to you was Sham, and I'd love to to talk to you was Sham, and I'd love to to talk to you about kind of what was the inspiration about kind of what was the inspiration about kind of what was the inspiration for this. You you sort of um wrote this for this. You you sort of um wrote this for this. You you sort of um wrote this seminal piece about First Breakfast, seminal piece about First Breakfast, seminal piece about First Breakfast, about defense reformation. Um, and we're about defense reformation. Um, and we're about defense reformation. Um, and we're the first person to really start talking the first person to really start talking the first person to really start talking about it. Um, but again, this was like about it. Um, but again, this was like about it. Um, but again, this was like 17 years into the journey of Palunteer 17 years into the journey of Palunteer 17 years into the journey of Palunteer that you decided I'm going to be, you that you decided I'm going to be, you that you decided I'm going to be, you know, a strident voice for what needs to know, a strident voice for what needs to know, a strident voice for what needs to happen in America. Um, so I'd love to happen in America. Um, so I'd love to happen in America. Um, so I'd love to talk to you about this, you know, going talk to you about this, you know, going talk to you about this, you know, going from the behind-the-scenes person, the from the behind-the-scenes person, the from the behind-the-scenes person, the the guy behind the guy in so many of our the guy behind the guy in so many of our the guy behind the guy in so many of our companies, uh, to saying, "I need to companies, uh, to saying, "I need to companies, uh, to saying, "I need to come out and and be a voice for this come out and and be a voice for this come out and and be a voice for this movement." What What was the kind of movement." What What was the kind of movement." What What was the kind of impetus for that? impetus for that? impetus for that? >> It was kind of equal parts an act of >> It was kind of equal parts an act of >> It was kind of equal parts an act of desperation and act of optimism. Um, you desperation and act of optimism. Um, you desperation and act of optimism. Um, you know, I I felt like after years of just know, I I felt like after years of just know, I I felt like after years of just seeing seeing seeing uh the the the building, the Pentagon uh the the the building, the Pentagon uh the the the building, the Pentagon from the inside, seeing how defense was from the inside, seeing how defense was from the inside, seeing how defense was operating, I felt this frog boil that operating, I felt this frog boil that operating, I felt this frog boil that continued to happen uh set in a continued to happen uh set in a continued to happen uh set in a historical context. But the reason to historical context. But the reason to historical context. But the reason to say something is actually I thought this say something is actually I thought this say something is actually I thought this was the moment that it could all be was the moment that it could all be was the moment that it could all be fixed. that alongside of that happening, fixed. that alongside of that happening, fixed. that alongside of that happening, seeing what was happening outside of the seeing what was happening outside of the seeing what was happening outside of the building that the founders were building that the founders were building that the founders were reemerging, there was a huge amount of reemerging, there was a huge amount of reemerging, there was a huge amount of energy, people wanted to build in the energy, people wanted to build in the energy, people wanted to build in the national interest, uh, and and it was a national interest, uh, and and it was a national interest, uh, and and it was a moment to kind of crystallize what at moment to kind of crystallize what at moment to kind of crystallize what at least put forth what I thought the least put forth what I thought the least put forth what I thought the fundamental diagnosis was that really fundamental diagnosis was that really fundamental diagnosis was that really the things that we did to win in the the things that we did to win in the the things that we did to win in the past, we accidentally turned our back past, we accidentally turned our back past, we accidentally turned our back on. And there's an opportunity to on. And there's an opportunity to on. And there's an opportunity to reclaim that with vigor. Uh, and we reclaim that with vigor. Uh, and we reclaim that with vigor. Uh, and we needed to do so quickly. That time was needed to do so quickly. That time was needed to do so quickly. That time was running out. there was a shot clock here running out. there was a shot clock here running out. there was a shot clock here that we have frogboiled our way to a that we have frogboiled our way to a that we have frogboiled our way to a place where we've lost deterrence. You place where we've lost deterrence. You place where we've lost deterrence. You know, it's any one of these items in know, it's any one of these items in know, it's any one of these items in isolation you can write off. You could isolation you can write off. You could isolation you can write off. You could say, okay, the Russians annexed Crimea say, okay, the Russians annexed Crimea say, okay, the Russians annexed Crimea in 2014. That's just one thing. Then you in 2014. That's just one thing. Then you in 2014. That's just one thing. Then you have the militarization of the Spratley have the militarization of the Spratley have the militarization of the Spratley Islands in the in 15. You have the the Islands in the in 15. You have the the Islands in the in 15. You have the the failure of GC JCPOA to keep the Iranians failure of GC JCPOA to keep the Iranians failure of GC JCPOA to keep the Iranians from getting a bomb. You have a pogram from getting a bomb. You have a pogram from getting a bomb. You have a pogram in Israel. And certainly after October in Israel. And certainly after October in Israel. And certainly after October 7th, I I I it was kind of a radicalizing 7th, I I I it was kind of a radicalizing 7th, I I I it was kind of a radicalizing moment that like what is going on here? moment that like what is going on here? moment that like what is going on here? Uh we we need to act. And I think we Uh we we need to act. And I think we Uh we we need to act. And I think we we've only had more things since then. we've only had more things since then. we've only had more things since then. Now, I think the good news is in the Now, I think the good news is in the Now, I think the good news is in the last year, more has changed in the last year, more has changed in the last year, more has changed in the department than I've seen change in the department than I've seen change in the department than I've seen change in the prior 19 years. And and people are are prior 19 years. And and people are are prior 19 years. And and people are are seizing that moment for reformation. Um, seizing that moment for reformation. Um, seizing that moment for reformation. Um, and it's it's been it's been rewarding and it's it's been it's been rewarding and it's it's been it's been rewarding to kind of get it out there, get people to kind of get it out there, get people to kind of get it out there, get people to rally behind it, and uh all of us to rally behind it, and uh all of us to rally behind it, and uh all of us building in the national interest. building in the national interest. building in the national interest. >> Yeah. I mean, what what is it because I >> Yeah. I mean, what what is it because I >> Yeah. I mean, what what is it because I think you get this question probably all think you get this question probably all think you get this question probably all the time. What is it about the last I the time. What is it about the last I the time. What is it about the last I mean as you said it wasn't a single mean as you said it wasn't a single mean as you said it wasn't a single moment but there is some change in the moment but there is some change in the moment but there is some change in the culture and the zeitgeist and I think culture and the zeitgeist and I think culture and the zeitgeist and I think you know you have a unique understanding you know you have a unique understanding you know you have a unique understanding too of of of culture and and kind of how too of of of culture and and kind of how too of of of culture and and kind of how these mimetic shifts happen but what was these mimetic shifts happen but what was these mimetic shifts happen but what was it about you know 18 months ago where it about you know 18 months ago where it about you know 18 months ago where it's like everyone seems to agree on the it's like everyone seems to agree on the it's like everyone seems to agree on the thing that was so contrarian uh for for thing that was so contrarian uh for for thing that was so contrarian uh for for many years where you were sort of many years where you were sort of many years where you were sort of banging your head against a wall saying banging your head against a wall saying banging your head against a wall saying like this is you know this needs to like this is you know this needs to like this is you know this needs to happen. Well, maybe unsurprising for my happen. Well, maybe unsurprising for my happen. Well, maybe unsurprising for my worldview, it all comes down to worldview, it all comes down to worldview, it all comes down to leadership. You know, I I we call them leadership. You know, I I we call them leadership. You know, I I we call them the founding fathers for a reason. There the founding fathers for a reason. There the founding fathers for a reason. There is something special about the American is something special about the American is something special about the American spirit. Uh that is, you know, every spirit. Uh that is, you know, every spirit. Uh that is, you know, every founding story is is equal parts heresy founding story is is equal parts heresy founding story is is equal parts heresy and heroism. And um we had the right and heroism. And um we had the right and heroism. And um we had the right people who kind of saw like, hey, this people who kind of saw like, hey, this people who kind of saw like, hey, this is not working and we're the shock clock is not working and we're the shock clock is not working and we're the shock clock is running out and we have to do is running out and we have to do is running out and we have to do something. And we had those people both something. And we had those people both something. And we had those people both inside the building and outside the inside the building and outside the inside the building and outside the building. So, it's kind of a conspiracy building. So, it's kind of a conspiracy building. So, it's kind of a conspiracy coalition of the willing, co coalition coalition of the willing, co coalition coalition of the willing, co coalition of the capable to go do that. Um, of the capable to go do that. Um, of the capable to go do that. Um, so it's it's hard to point to any one so it's it's hard to point to any one so it's it's hard to point to any one single moment. I I think the the kind of single moment. I I think the the kind of single moment. I I think the the kind of the election is a big part of it. Not to the election is a big part of it. Not to the election is a big part of it. Not to not to make it political, but just being not to make it political, but just being not to make it political, but just being able to get in uh leadership that viewed able to get in uh leadership that viewed able to get in uh leadership that viewed it with clarity and set the conditions it with clarity and set the conditions it with clarity and set the conditions uh to to make this change happen. uh to to make this change happen. uh to to make this change happen. >> Yeah. So, you've been busy. Um you you >> Yeah. So, you've been busy. Um you you >> Yeah. So, you've been busy. Um you you know, you've you've joined the army. Um know, you've you've joined the army. Um know, you've you've joined the army. Um you're you've written a book that's you're you've written a book that's you're you've written a book that's coming out. Um, I'd love to get into to coming out. Um, I'd love to get into to coming out. Um, I'd love to get into to mobilize, but first, why did you decide mobilize, but first, why did you decide mobilize, but first, why did you decide now's the time to sort of write the now's the time to sort of write the now's the time to sort of write the write the canonical book of what needs write the canonical book of what needs write the canonical book of what needs to happen in America and then maybe we to happen in America and then maybe we to happen in America and then maybe we can talk about sort of the the sort of can talk about sort of the the sort of can talk about sort of the the sort of fundamental thesis too, but why why now? fundamental thesis too, but why why now? fundamental thesis too, but why why now? Why why write a book, join the army? Um, Why why write a book, join the army? Um, Why why write a book, join the army? Um, and also uh be leading palunteer. and also uh be leading palunteer. and also uh be leading palunteer. >> Yeah. Well, they're all there is a >> Yeah. Well, they're all there is a >> Yeah. Well, they're all there is a there's a cogent kind of thread through there's a cogent kind of thread through there's a cogent kind of thread through that, which is like how how do we that, which is like how how do we that, which is like how how do we mobilize to prevent a bigger conflict? mobilize to prevent a bigger conflict? mobilize to prevent a bigger conflict? And if you're if you're really paying And if you're if you're really paying And if you're if you're really paying attention, it's hard not to think that attention, it's hard not to think that attention, it's hard not to think that we're kind of in the late30s here. That we're kind of in the late30s here. That we're kind of in the late30s here. That things are are brewing. They've been things are are brewing. They've been things are are brewing. They've been brewing for a while. Um people talk brewing for a while. Um people talk brewing for a while. Um people talk about great power competition. Uh and I about great power competition. Uh and I about great power competition. Uh and I think we're kind of coming out of the think we're kind of coming out of the think we're kind of coming out of the malaise of having won the Cold War or malaise of having won the Cold War or malaise of having won the Cold War or the Soviets having lost it perhaps more the Soviets having lost it perhaps more the Soviets having lost it perhaps more accurately and that kind of led to a lot accurately and that kind of led to a lot accurately and that kind of led to a lot of of bad behaviors. It allowed us to of of bad behaviors. It allowed us to of of bad behaviors. It allowed us to believe a lot of lies about the future believe a lot of lies about the future believe a lot of lies about the future that that were kind of now working to that that were kind of now working to that that were kind of now working to market. Uh and so part we we will not market. Uh and so part we we will not market. Uh and so part we we will not have the luxury that we really had in uh have the luxury that we really had in uh have the luxury that we really had in uh in World War II of letting the adversary in World War II of letting the adversary in World War II of letting the adversary attack us first and then deciding to attack us first and then deciding to attack us first and then deciding to mobilize. And I think a more cleareyed mobilize. And I think a more cleareyed mobilize. And I think a more cleareyed view of what actually happened in World view of what actually happened in World view of what actually happened in World War II is that's not it. It's not this War II is that's not it. It's not this War II is that's not it. It's not this fil thing that we just flipped a switch fil thing that we just flipped a switch fil thing that we just flipped a switch and the automotive industry decided, and the automotive industry decided, and the automotive industry decided, okay, after Pearl Harbor, we're going to okay, after Pearl Harbor, we're going to okay, after Pearl Harbor, we're going to make all this war material. What really make all this war material. What really make all this war material. What really happened is that leadership from FDR happened is that leadership from FDR happened is that leadership from FDR realized in the in the 30s in the late realized in the in the 30s in the late realized in the in the 30s in the late 30s that we needed to mobilize but there 30s that we needed to mobilize but there 30s that we needed to mobilize but there was not yet a national will or popular was not yet a national will or popular was not yet a national will or popular mandate to do so. uh and len lease mandate to do so. uh and len lease mandate to do so. uh and len lease provided the mechanism to do that that provided the mechanism to do that that provided the mechanism to do that that we it took us 18 months to build we it took us 18 months to build we it took us 18 months to build factories and retool them and we were factories and retool them and we were factories and retool them and we were able to create capability deterrence able to create capability deterrence able to create capability deterrence that we we sold to the Brits and to the that we we sold to the Brits and to the that we we sold to the Brits and to the Soviets such that when World War II Soviets such that when World War II Soviets such that when World War II really kicked off for us when Pearl really kicked off for us when Pearl really kicked off for us when Pearl Harbor happened we were at full rate Harbor happened we were at full rate Harbor happened we were at full rate production and the way that we mobilize production and the way that we mobilize production and the way that we mobilize you know when a country goes to war it's you know when a country goes to war it's you know when a country goes to war it's the whole country that goes to war it's the whole country that goes to war it's the whole country that goes to war it's not enough I think part of the legacy of not enough I think part of the legacy of not enough I think part of the legacy of having won the Cold War is thinking like having won the Cold War is thinking like having won the Cold War is thinking like it's enough to just have a defense it's enough to just have a defense it's enough to just have a defense industrial base it's enough to just have industrial base it's enough to just have industrial base it's enough to just have the department of war fight these wars. the department of war fight these wars. the department of war fight these wars. It is actually the whole country. And I It is actually the whole country. And I It is actually the whole country. And I think that's the the most um stark think that's the the most um stark think that's the the most um stark thing. It's like we all as American thing. It's like we all as American thing. It's like we all as American citizens need to be invested in both the citizens need to be invested in both the citizens need to be invested in both the prosperity the country gives us but also prosperity the country gives us but also prosperity the country gives us but also the freedom that underwrites that the freedom that underwrites that the freedom that underwrites that prosperity. And we have come a very far prosperity. And we have come a very far prosperity. And we have come a very far away from that world. You know in 1989 away from that world. You know in 1989 away from that world. You know in 1989 only 6% of spending on major weapon only 6% of spending on major weapon only 6% of spending on major weapon systems went to defense specialists i.e. systems went to defense specialists i.e. systems went to defense specialists i.e. companies that were exclusively in the companies that were exclusively in the companies that were exclusively in the business of defense. That's not that business of defense. That's not that business of defense. That's not that long ago. That's when the Berlin Wall long ago. That's when the Berlin Wall long ago. That's when the Berlin Wall still stood. still stood. still stood. >> Now that number is 86%. So really the >> Now that number is 86%. So really the >> Now that number is 86%. So really the what we think of as normal is an what we think of as normal is an what we think of as normal is an aberration from the past and mobiliz aberration from the past and mobiliz aberration from the past and mobiliz seeks to set that story in context of seeks to set that story in context of seeks to set that story in context of one hey this is the industrial base what one hey this is the industrial base what one hey this is the industrial base what I like to call the American industrial I like to call the American industrial I like to call the American industrial base that won World War II. Chrysler base that won World War II. Chrysler base that won World War II. Chrysler built Minuteman missiles and minivans built Minuteman missiles and minivans built Minuteman missiles and minivans and every camera car serial box that an and every camera car serial box that an and every camera car serial box that an American consumer bought was actually American consumer bought was actually American consumer bought was actually also subsidizing our national security. also subsidizing our national security. also subsidizing our national security. And that's really important. We see this And that's really important. We see this And that's really important. We see this with the hyperscalers. We see this with with the hyperscalers. We see this with with the hyperscalers. We see this with technology. The amount that our private technology. The amount that our private technology. The amount that our private sector spends on R&D dwarfs what the sector spends on R&D dwarfs what the sector spends on R&D dwarfs what the government is capable of spending. And government is capable of spending. And government is capable of spending. And you want to get on that price you want to get on that price you want to get on that price performance curve as a way of delivering performance curve as a way of delivering performance curve as a way of delivering capabilities to our brave men and women capabilities to our brave men and women capabilities to our brave men and women in uniform. in uniform. in uniform. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh the so how do we get back to that you know so how do we get back to that you know and I oh so the second part of it yeah and I oh so the second part of it yeah and I oh so the second part of it yeah so we had the American industrial base so we had the American industrial base so we had the American industrial base but who was the American industrial base but who was the American industrial base but who was the American industrial base today? We think of it as north of today? We think of it as north of today? We think of it as north of Grumman. We think of it as Loheed Grumman. We think of it as Loheed Grumman. We think of it as Loheed Martin, but actually it was Glenn Martin, but actually it was Glenn Martin, but actually it was Glenn Martin, it was Jack Northrup, it was Martin, it was Jack Northrup, it was Martin, it was Jack Northrup, it was Leroy Grumin. They were people. They Leroy Grumin. They were people. They Leroy Grumin. They were people. They were founders. They they were kind of were founders. They they were kind of were founders. They they were kind of not thinking about, hey, what's the not thinking about, hey, what's the not thinking about, hey, what's the performance going to be next quarter? performance going to be next quarter? performance going to be next quarter? They were building something way bigger They were building something way bigger They were building something way bigger than themselves, way bigger than their than themselves, way bigger than their than themselves, way bigger than their their companies. And those founders their companies. And those founders their companies. And those founders weren't just outside of government. They weren't just outside of government. They weren't just outside of government. They were inside of government. It was the were inside of government. It was the were inside of government. It was the Heimman Rickovers, the you know, against Heimman Rickovers, the you know, against Heimman Rickovers, the you know, against the will of the Navy building the the will of the Navy building the the will of the Navy building the nuclear navy. And I love that story, nuclear navy. And I love that story, nuclear navy. And I love that story, too, because it takes a lot of hutzbah. too, because it takes a lot of hutzbah. too, because it takes a lot of hutzbah. Oppenheimer, the father of the bomb, Oppenheimer, the father of the bomb, Oppenheimer, the father of the bomb, said the nuclear navy wasn't going to said the nuclear navy wasn't going to said the nuclear navy wasn't going to work. He told Oppenheimer, he told work. He told Oppenheimer, he told work. He told Oppenheimer, he told Heyman he was going to fail and he still Heyman he was going to fail and he still Heyman he was going to fail and he still p he still proceeded. And that's p he still proceeded. And that's p he still proceeded. And that's something I think in the valley we something I think in the valley we something I think in the valley we recognized as the classic founder recognized as the classic founder recognized as the classic founder personality. personality. personality. >> And a big part of what happened, you >> And a big part of what happened, you >> And a big part of what happened, you know, after after the end of the cold know, after after the end of the cold know, after after the end of the cold war, we we wanted a peace de dividend. war, we we wanted a peace de dividend. war, we we wanted a peace de dividend. We started spending less in defense. We We started spending less in defense. We We started spending less in defense. We had this famous dinner, the last supper. had this famous dinner, the last supper. had this famous dinner, the last supper. We went from 51 prime contractors down We went from 51 prime contractors down We went from 51 prime contractors down to five. I think the conventional to five. I think the conventional to five. I think the conventional explanation of what happened uh is explanation of what happened uh is explanation of what happened uh is wrong. This people think hey we had wrong. This people think hey we had wrong. This people think hey we had consolidation. Consolidation means we consolidation. Consolidation means we consolidation. Consolidation means we lost competition. lost competition. lost competition. That's not yeah okay maybe at the margin That's not yeah okay maybe at the margin That's not yeah okay maybe at the margin but that first of all it's always been a but that first of all it's always been a but that first of all it's always been a monopsiny you know the nature of the monopsiny you know the nature of the monopsiny you know the nature of the competition is not what people think. competition is not what people think. competition is not what people think. It's not these companies competing It's not these companies competing It's not these companies competing against each other. The competition's against each other. The competition's against each other. The competition's always been the services competing. It's always been the services competing. It's always been the services competing. It's been competition inside of government been competition inside of government been competition inside of government that drove innovation not competition that drove innovation not competition that drove innovation not competition from industry. What really happened from from industry. What really happened from from industry. What really happened from the last supper is that consolidation the last supper is that consolidation the last supper is that consolidation bred conformity. It was the beginning of bred conformity. It was the beginning of bred conformity. It was the beginning of true financialization of defense. These true financialization of defense. These true financialization of defense. These companies really could no longer think companies really could no longer think companies really could no longer think about growth. They thought about about growth. They thought about about growth. They thought about financial metrics, dividends, buybacks, financial metrics, dividends, buybacks, financial metrics, dividends, buybacks, cash flow. And it it kind of became very cash flow. And it it kind of became very cash flow. And it it kind of became very narrow and that conformity is not an narrow and that conformity is not an narrow and that conformity is not an environment that founders can thrive in. environment that founders can thrive in. environment that founders can thrive in. You know, the the heretics h were You know, the the heretics h were You know, the the heretics h were expuned. They left. They went to other expuned. They left. They went to other expuned. They left. They went to other parts of the American economy like tech. parts of the American economy like tech. parts of the American economy like tech. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> Uh but the those heretics are required. >> Uh but the those heretics are required. >> Uh but the those heretics are required. In fact, if you look at part of the In fact, if you look at part of the In fact, if you look at part of the book, we catalog all these amazing book, we catalog all these amazing book, we catalog all these amazing defense innovations almost to a tea. defense innovations almost to a tea. defense innovations almost to a tea. Every single one of them was a heretical Every single one of them was a heretical Every single one of them was a heretical idea. idea. idea. >> You know, the the institution was >> You know, the the institution was >> You know, the the institution was against it. The bureaucracy was against against it. The bureaucracy was against against it. The bureaucracy was against it. The process tried to kill it. Uh and it. The process tried to kill it. Uh and it. The process tried to kill it. Uh and these determinative outcomes, you can these determinative outcomes, you can these determinative outcomes, you can think about the Higgins boat, the boat think about the Higgins boat, the boat think about the Higgins boat, the boat that won World War II. The Navy didn't that won World War II. The Navy didn't that won World War II. The Navy didn't want to buy the boat. The Navy tried to want to buy the boat. The Navy tried to want to buy the boat. The Navy tried to steal the designs for the boat. In the steal the designs for the boat. In the steal the designs for the boat. In the end, 92% of all boats in World War II end, 92% of all boats in World War II end, 92% of all boats in World War II were Higgins boats. Think about where were Higgins boats. Think about where were Higgins boats. Think about where we'd be if this Scots-Irishman wasn't we'd be if this Scots-Irishman wasn't we'd be if this Scots-Irishman wasn't just willing to just almost just willing to just almost just willing to just almost pathologically commit himself to making pathologically commit himself to making pathologically commit himself to making this happen. The boys that would not this happen. The boys that would not this happen. The boys that would not have landed at Normandy. have landed at Normandy. have landed at Normandy. >> Yeah. No, I mean, and that's super >> Yeah. No, I mean, and that's super >> Yeah. No, I mean, and that's super interesting. Yeah. Because I think that, interesting. Yeah. Because I think that, interesting. Yeah. Because I think that, as you said, it's always been, you know, as you said, it's always been, you know, as you said, it's always been, you know, that this sort of force consolidation that this sort of force consolidation that this sort of force consolidation that we've picked the winners there. You that we've picked the winners there. You that we've picked the winners there. You know, we're we're we're post now, like know, we're we're we're post now, like know, we're we're we're post now, like we we don't actually need to build for we we don't actually need to build for we we don't actually need to build for for wartime. So, it's your view that for wartime. So, it's your view that for wartime. So, it's your view that that really that just expuned all of the that really that just expuned all of the that really that just expuned all of the talent that used to go to defense. And talent that used to go to defense. And talent that used to go to defense. And it's interesting because it's also I it's interesting because it's also I it's interesting because it's also I mean it's in some ways it's it's sort of mean it's in some ways it's it's sort of mean it's in some ways it's it's sort of serendipitous that that's exactly when serendipitous that that's exactly when serendipitous that that's exactly when the internet's rising. So, it's like if the internet's rising. So, it's like if the internet's rising. So, it's like if you're this kind of weird personality, you're this kind of weird personality, you're this kind of weird personality, you're going to go work on this new you're going to go work on this new you're going to go work on this new thing that's so exciting. You know, I thing that's so exciting. You know, I thing that's so exciting. You know, I think of like, you know, Mark Andre, think of like, you know, Mark Andre, think of like, you know, Mark Andre, right? Like he's he could have been in right? Like he's he could have been in right? Like he's he could have been in the defense industry maybe 20 years the defense industry maybe 20 years the defense industry maybe 20 years earlier, but it's like, you know, the earlier, but it's like, you know, the earlier, but it's like, you know, the people who were building the internet in people who were building the internet in people who were building the internet in the '9s, they wanted to build the new the '9s, they wanted to build the new the '9s, they wanted to build the new thing. So I guess like is is that sort thing. So I guess like is is that sort thing. So I guess like is is that sort of the fundamental problem is that like of the fundamental problem is that like of the fundamental problem is that like it just became a place where anyone who it just became a place where anyone who it just became a place where anyone who was interesting or anyone who had a was interesting or anyone who had a was interesting or anyone who had a different view just could not thrive. different view just could not thrive. different view just could not thrive. >> Yeah. Exactly. And then we compounded on >> Yeah. Exactly. And then we compounded on >> Yeah. Exactly. And then we compounded on that problem by you know the the nature that problem by you know the the nature that problem by you know the the nature of the monopsin. So unlike a monopoly of the monopsin. So unlike a monopoly of the monopsin. So unlike a monopoly where you have one seller over a thing, where you have one seller over a thing, where you have one seller over a thing, a monopoly is where you have one buyer a monopoly is where you have one buyer a monopoly is where you have one buyer over a thing that the department of war over a thing that the department of war over a thing that the department of war is a monopsy. Um is a monopsy. Um is a monopsy. Um the nature of the monopsin is it forgets the nature of the monopsin is it forgets the nature of the monopsin is it forgets it starts imposing all sorts of it starts imposing all sorts of it starts imposing all sorts of constraints on its suppliers and how constraints on its suppliers and how constraints on its suppliers and how they behave and what they need to look they behave and what they need to look they behave and what they need to look like. And that led to it's like putting like. And that led to it's like putting like. And that led to it's like putting we put all of these companies on the we put all of these companies on the we put all of these companies on the Galopagos Islands. Uh they're not on the Galopagos Islands. Uh they're not on the Galopagos Islands. Uh they're not on the mainland anymore. And so what do you get mainland anymore. And so what do you get mainland anymore. And so what do you get on the Galapagos? You get these on the Galapagos? You get these on the Galapagos? You get these exquisite giant tortoises. They're exquisite giant tortoises. They're exquisite giant tortoises. They're really amazing. Like like it's like really amazing. Like like it's like really amazing. Like like it's like alien life. It's it's very cool. Except alien life. It's it's very cool. Except alien life. It's it's very cool. Except when you take the tortoise back to the when you take the tortoise back to the when you take the tortoise back to the mainland, they're not competitive. mainland, they're not competitive. mainland, they're not competitive. They're going to get eaten alive by the They're going to get eaten alive by the They're going to get eaten alive by the wolves. wolves. wolves. >> Yeah. Uh and so we started creating a >> Yeah. Uh and so we started creating a >> Yeah. Uh and so we started creating a huge number of barriers for these people huge number of barriers for these people huge number of barriers for these people who even when they had ideas that could who even when they had ideas that could who even when they had ideas that could those ideas come back into defense. those ideas come back into defense. those ideas come back into defense. Uh I like to say like when we started Uh I like to say like when we started Uh I like to say like when we started Palunteer there was no front door in the Palunteer there was no front door in the Palunteer there was no front door in the department of defense. You know you had department of defense. You know you had department of defense. You know you had to the only front door. There was to the only front door. There was to the only front door. There was exactly one. It was in the intelligence exactly one. It was in the intelligence exactly one. It was in the intelligence community. It was Inkutel. If you were community. It was Inkutel. If you were community. It was Inkutel. If you were an outsider there was no other way in. an outsider there was no other way in. an outsider there was no other way in. The only people that worked here were The only people that worked here were The only people that worked here were insiders. insiders. insiders. >> Uh of course now that is that's part of >> Uh of course now that is that's part of >> Uh of course now that is that's part of the sea change that happened starting the sea change that happened starting the sea change that happened starting really in 2015. But that means putting really in 2015. But that means putting really in 2015. But that means putting forth the 18 thesis and the defense forth the 18 thesis and the defense forth the 18 thesis and the defense reformation and 2024 makes a lot of reformation and 2024 makes a lot of reformation and 2024 makes a lot of sense because we have 10 years of sense because we have 10 years of sense because we have 10 years of heretics who have been knocking at the heretics who have been knocking at the heretics who have been knocking at the gate ready to to come help the gate ready to to come help the gate ready to to come help the department. department. department. >> Yeah. No, and so much of the book I mean >> Yeah. No, and so much of the book I mean >> Yeah. No, and so much of the book I mean you talk about these sort of heretical you talk about these sort of heretical you talk about these sort of heretical heroes, you know, in doing the research heroes, you know, in doing the research heroes, you know, in doing the research and I mean you're you're now sort of and I mean you're you're now sort of and I mean you're you're now sort of like the walking encyclopedia for the like the walking encyclopedia for the like the walking encyclopedia for the defense industry um in tech. Who who are defense industry um in tech. Who who are defense industry um in tech. Who who are the most exciting heroes? Like who's the the most exciting heroes? Like who's the the most exciting heroes? Like who's the person you look at and you say like gosh person you look at and you say like gosh person you look at and you say like gosh that that is that is the person that that that is that is the person that that that is that is the person that people don't know about. They need to people don't know about. They need to people don't know about. They need to know. Well, I I think u it's hard to know. Well, I I think u it's hard to know. Well, I I think u it's hard to pick only one. The a new profile that we pick only one. The a new profile that we pick only one. The a new profile that we put out there, which is so some of these put out there, which is so some of these put out there, which is so some of these figures are historical figures. Bernard figures are historical figures. Bernard figures are historical figures. Bernard Shriber, Edward Hall, Heyman, Rick Ober, Shriber, Edward Hall, Heyman, Rick Ober, Shriber, Edward Hall, Heyman, Rick Ober, James Boyd, John Boyd, sorry, but the James Boyd, John Boyd, sorry, but the James Boyd, John Boyd, sorry, but the one that's new is Colonel Drew Cukor. one that's new is Colonel Drew Cukor. one that's new is Colonel Drew Cukor. And Kukor is the father of Maven. And And Kukor is the father of Maven. And And Kukor is the father of Maven. And here you have this uh Marine Colonel, here you have this uh Marine Colonel, here you have this uh Marine Colonel, you know, uh born raised by a single you know, uh born raised by a single you know, uh born raised by a single mother, Southern California, uh very mother, Southern California, uh very mother, Southern California, uh very modest background. found his only way of modest background. found his only way of modest background. found his only way of going to college was ROTC, going to college was ROTC, going to college was ROTC, joined the Marines. Lots of incredible joined the Marines. Lots of incredible joined the Marines. Lots of incredible experiences there, but he he had a a experiences there, but he he had a a experiences there, but he he had a a seminal experience where he was trying seminal experience where he was trying seminal experience where he was trying to evacuate Yazadi refugees who were to evacuate Yazadi refugees who were to evacuate Yazadi refugees who were fleeing ISIS and a a young Marine fleeing ISIS and a a young Marine fleeing ISIS and a a young Marine looking at ISR made a call that he looking at ISR made a call that he looking at ISR made a call that he thought he saw RPGs and that would make thought he saw RPGs and that would make thought he saw RPGs and that would make made it unsafe for the Marines to land made it unsafe for the Marines to land made it unsafe for the Marines to land and Xfill these people. And there there and Xfill these people. And there there and Xfill these people. And there there actually wasn't one. As a consequence, actually wasn't one. As a consequence, actually wasn't one. As a consequence, you have order of thousands of people you have order of thousands of people you have order of thousands of people who were tortured, enslaved, and raped who were tortured, enslaved, and raped who were tortured, enslaved, and raped because of this failure of operation. because of this failure of operation. because of this failure of operation. And it just it just changed this man. And it just it just changed this man. And it just it just changed this man. And so when he had an opportunity in the And so when he had an opportunity in the And so when he had an opportunity in the basement of the Pentagon on a project basement of the Pentagon on a project basement of the Pentagon on a project with no resources to go after bringing with no resources to go after bringing with no resources to go after bringing AI to the department, he leaned all the AI to the department, he leaned all the AI to the department, he leaned all the way in. And you can see the the journey way in. And you can see the the journey way in. And you can see the the journey of the heretic here where everyone hated of the heretic here where everyone hated of the heretic here where everyone hated him. Everyone tried to kill him. Every him. Everyone tried to kill him. Every him. Everyone tried to kill him. Every service thought they were doing AI. Uh service thought they were doing AI. Uh service thought they were doing AI. Uh people tried to throw IG investigations people tried to throw IG investigations people tried to throw IG investigations and like one of the the details we and like one of the the details we and like one of the the details we document is that someone said that document is that someone said that document is that someone said that Colonel Cukor is housing Iranians in his Colonel Cukor is housing Iranians in his Colonel Cukor is housing Iranians in his basement. So they they actually sent out basement. So they they actually sent out basement. So they they actually sent out criminal investigators to his house to criminal investigators to his house to criminal investigators to his house to look at this. And here here's a a Mormon look at this. And here here's a a Mormon look at this. And here here's a a Mormon devout Mormon, four four daughters, devout Mormon, four four daughters, devout Mormon, four four daughters, 1400 foot home that doesn't have a 1400 foot home that doesn't have a 1400 foot home that doesn't have a basement by the way. basement by the way. basement by the way. >> Uh and you know the investigators were >> Uh and you know the investigators were >> Uh and you know the investigators were just completely dumbfounded. It shows just completely dumbfounded. It shows just completely dumbfounded. It shows you sometimes that what you know are you you sometimes that what you know are you you sometimes that what you know are you are you willing to put it all on the are you willing to put it all on the are you willing to put it all on the line? Are you so committed so line? Are you so committed so line? Are you so committed so incorruptible in what you're trying to incorruptible in what you're trying to incorruptible in what you're trying to deliver or is this just a career? And deliver or is this just a career? And deliver or is this just a career? And that's one of the things I think I draw that's one of the things I think I draw that's one of the things I think I draw a lot of inspiration from these folks is a lot of inspiration from these folks is a lot of inspiration from these folks is just seeing you know if they can do this just seeing you know if they can do this just seeing you know if they can do this we can too. Seeing that these people we can too. Seeing that these people we can too. Seeing that these people exist inside of government they exist exist inside of government they exist exist inside of government they exist outside of government. And I think it's outside of government. And I think it's outside of government. And I think it's that's in the moment right now you could that's in the moment right now you could that's in the moment right now you could say we need to build more weapons. We say we need to build more weapons. We say we need to build more weapons. We need to do this. We need Yes. But most need to do this. We need Yes. But most need to do this. We need Yes. But most the most important thing we need to do the most important thing we need to do the most important thing we need to do is inspire the latent heretics to is inspire the latent heretics to is inspire the latent heretics to actually step up. This is the moment actually step up. This is the moment actually step up. This is the moment your country really needs you. Uh what your country really needs you. Uh what your country really needs you. Uh what what's been exciting over the last year what's been exciting over the last year what's been exciting over the last year or so is I'm seeing those people. I'm or so is I'm seeing those people. I'm or so is I'm seeing those people. I'm seeing them inside the building. I'm seeing them inside the building. I'm seeing them inside the building. I'm seeing outside the building. And that's seeing outside the building. And that's seeing outside the building. And that's that is you know what is driving the that is you know what is driving the that is you know what is driving the change is the leadership is setting the change is the leadership is setting the change is the leadership is setting the conditions to empower the heretics. conditions to empower the heretics. conditions to empower the heretics. They're protecting them. John Boyd who They're protecting them. John Boyd who They're protecting them. John Boyd who was a famously difficult fighter pilot. was a famously difficult fighter pilot. was a famously difficult fighter pilot. His own service the air force hated him. His own service the air force hated him. His own service the air force hated him. But the Marines learned everything they But the Marines learned everything they But the Marines learned everything they could from him and all of his heresy. He could from him and all of his heresy. He could from him and all of his heresy. He was really the father of the F-16. All was really the father of the F-16. All was really the father of the F-16. All of his heresy was proven correct in Gulf of his heresy was proven correct in Gulf of his heresy was proven correct in Gulf War I where we destroyed the fourth War I where we destroyed the fourth War I where we destroyed the fourth largest army in the world in days. It largest army in the world in days. It largest army in the world in days. It just everything came to bear. His high just everything came to bear. His high just everything came to bear. His high low mix, his udaloop. low mix, his udaloop. low mix, his udaloop. Um but you know John Boyd said to be or Um but you know John Boyd said to be or Um but you know John Boyd said to be or to do. You can be somebody or you can do to do. You can be somebody or you can do to do. You can be somebody or you can do something and but you can't have both something and but you can't have both something and but you can't have both and you know how committed are you to and you know how committed are you to and you know how committed are you to this? But he was so difficult this? But he was so difficult this? But he was so difficult he gets a lot of credit. I think the he gets a lot of credit. I think the he gets a lot of credit. I think the other person who deserves credit who I other person who deserves credit who I other person who deserves credit who I don't even know the name of is a don't even know the name of is a don't even know the name of is a three-star Air Force general who three-star Air Force general who three-star Air Force general who protected him because people like that protected him because people like that protected him because people like that do not survive in these bureaucracies on do not survive in these bureaucracies on do not survive in these bureaucracies on their own. It's not like hey he's their own. It's not like hey he's their own. It's not like hey he's difficult and we somehow tolerated him. difficult and we somehow tolerated him. difficult and we somehow tolerated him. It's no someone realized there's It's no someone realized there's It's no someone realized there's something special here and despite that something special here and despite that something special here and despite that we tolerate him. You see that with the we tolerate him. You see that with the we tolerate him. You see that with the dynamic between Bernard Shriber who dynamic between Bernard Shriber who dynamic between Bernard Shriber who built um our intercontinental ballistic built um our intercontinental ballistic built um our intercontinental ballistic missiles and Edward Hall who missiles and Edward Hall who missiles and Edward Hall who specifically built the Minute Man. specifically built the Minute Man. specifically built the Minute Man. Shrivever um fired Hull once and then Shrivever um fired Hull once and then Shrivever um fired Hull once and then hired him back realizing there was no hired him back realizing there was no hired him back realizing there was no way we were going to get to solidfueled way we were going to get to solidfueled way we were going to get to solidfueled intercontinental ballistic missiles intercontinental ballistic missiles intercontinental ballistic missiles without this notoriously difficult without this notoriously difficult without this notoriously difficult human. And I think um that that's that's human. And I think um that that's that's human. And I think um that that's that's great leadership. great leadership. great leadership. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, and and you just said >> Yeah. Yeah. No, and and you just said >> Yeah. Yeah. No, and and you just said something interesting which is that it something interesting which is that it something interesting which is that it really takes leaders inside the building really takes leaders inside the building really takes leaders inside the building to model the change to to encourage it to model the change to to encourage it to model the change to to encourage it to to protect the people who are who are to to protect the people who are who are to to protect the people who are who are those heretics. Um and you've joined the those heretics. Um and you've joined the those heretics. Um and you've joined the army. Um, and it's a program from army. Um, and it's a program from army. Um, and it's a program from General George and Secretary Driscoll. General George and Secretary Driscoll. General George and Secretary Driscoll. Maybe tell us a little bit about the Maybe tell us a little bit about the Maybe tell us a little bit about the origin of that and then what you're origin of that and then what you're origin of that and then what you're doing specifically inside uh inside the doing specifically inside uh inside the doing specifically inside uh inside the army now um to support that change. army now um to support that change. army now um to support that change. >> Well, the the origin story of this is >> Well, the the origin story of this is >> Well, the the origin story of this is really so I've worked with the Israelis really so I've worked with the Israelis really so I've worked with the Israelis in some capacity since roughly 2014. in some capacity since roughly 2014. in some capacity since roughly 2014. This is a very technical country. Um and This is a very technical country. Um and This is a very technical country. Um and and they're proud of how technical they and they're proud of how technical they and they're proud of how technical they are. After October 7th, you know, are. After October 7th, you know, are. After October 7th, you know, October 8th, they mobilized roughly October 8th, they mobilized roughly October 8th, they mobilized roughly 360,000 reserveists. By definition, all 360,000 reserveists. By definition, all 360,000 reserveists. By definition, all these reserveists are prior service these reserveists are prior service these reserveists are prior service through national conscription. Uh, and through national conscription. Uh, and through national conscription. Uh, and most of them had now had 20 years of most of them had now had 20 years of most of them had now had 20 years of experience in industry. And when they experience in industry. And when they experience in industry. And when they got back to the IDF, they were horrified got back to the IDF, they were horrified got back to the IDF, they were horrified at the state of technology in the IDF, at the state of technology in the IDF, at the state of technology in the IDF, which is actually an implicit which is actually an implicit which is actually an implicit self-critique, which is, hey, when I was self-critique, which is, hey, when I was self-critique, which is, hey, when I was 20, I was really good at coding, but I 20, I was really good at coding, but I 20, I was really good at coding, but I didn't know what I was doing. Now I have didn't know what I was doing. Now I have didn't know what I was doing. Now I have 20 years of experience building internet 20 years of experience building internet 20 years of experience building internet scaled things and I actually know how to scaled things and I actually know how to scaled things and I actually know how to do these things correctly. So I saw them do these things correctly. So I saw them do these things correctly. So I saw them modernize more in the four months after modernize more in the four months after modernize more in the four months after October 7th I than I did in the prior 10 October 7th I than I did in the prior 10 October 7th I than I did in the prior 10 years of working with them years of working with them years of working with them >> and that was just I couldn't I couldn't >> and that was just I couldn't I couldn't >> and that was just I couldn't I couldn't unsee that. So of all countries in the unsee that. So of all countries in the unsee that. So of all countries in the world we are drowning with that talent. world we are drowning with that talent. world we are drowning with that talent. you know, the the the skills we have at you know, the the the skills we have at you know, the the the skills we have at building things in the valley, the building things in the valley, the building things in the valley, the companies that A16Z backs, like we know companies that A16Z backs, like we know companies that A16Z backs, like we know how to do this as a nation. how to do this as a nation. how to do this as a nation. >> The 20-year-old version of our green >> The 20-year-old version of our green >> The 20-year-old version of our green suitors maybe did it. You know, there's suitors maybe did it. You know, there's suitors maybe did it. You know, there's the will, there's the intelligence, the the will, there's the intelligence, the the will, there's the intelligence, the capability, but there's also then the capability, but there's also then the capability, but there's also then the tradecraftraft, the knowhow, the tradecraftraft, the knowhow, the tradecraftraft, the knowhow, the experience, all the dead ends that I've experience, all the dead ends that I've experience, all the dead ends that I've run into in my career, the mistakes I've run into in my career, the mistakes I've run into in my career, the mistakes I've made. If you're going to make mistakes, made. If you're going to make mistakes, made. If you're going to make mistakes, please make new ones. Don't make the please make new ones. Don't make the please make new ones. Don't make the same ones I already have done. You know, same ones I already have done. You know, same ones I already have done. You know, how can you stand on the shoulders of how can you stand on the shoulders of how can you stand on the shoulders of American industry to go faster and do American industry to go faster and do American industry to go faster and do this? And so I'm not sure I really had a this? And so I'm not sure I really had a this? And so I'm not sure I really had a lot to give the army at, you know, 24, lot to give the army at, you know, 24, lot to give the army at, you know, 24, but I think at 44, uh, there's a lot I but I think at 44, uh, there's a lot I but I think at 44, uh, there's a lot I can do to accelerate certain things. And can do to accelerate certain things. And can do to accelerate certain things. And that that's not just a narrow statement that that's not just a narrow statement that that's not just a narrow statement about me. I think that's a whole about me. I think that's a whole about me. I think that's a whole statement about the valley. There's a statement about the valley. There's a statement about the valley. There's a whole statement about American whole statement about American whole statement about American manufacturing, everyone in Elsagundo, manufacturing, everyone in Elsagundo, manufacturing, everyone in Elsagundo, you know, how do we make sure uh if the you know, how do we make sure uh if the you know, how do we make sure uh if the Chinese make civil military fusion Chinese make civil military fusion Chinese make civil military fusion compulsory, why do we make voluntary compulsory, why do we make voluntary compulsory, why do we make voluntary civil military fusion impossible? And civil military fusion impossible? And civil military fusion impossible? And and when I look back at history, we and when I look back at history, we and when I look back at history, we didn't used to make it impossible. In didn't used to make it impossible. In didn't used to make it impossible. In World War II, we direct commissioned a World War II, we direct commissioned a World War II, we direct commissioned a 100,000 people that look like what we 100,000 people that look like what we 100,000 people that look like what we now consider detachment 2011 into the now consider detachment 2011 into the now consider detachment 2011 into the military and we should be doing that military and we should be doing that military and we should be doing that again. The authorities exist. They're again. The authorities exist. They're again. The authorities exist. They're just laying there dormant and we're just laying there dormant and we're just laying there dormant and we're basically underutilized. So, I was proud basically underutilized. So, I was proud basically underutilized. So, I was proud to join the army with three other to join the army with three other to join the army with three other colleagues. We have Bob Mcgru, chief, colleagues. We have Bob Mcgru, chief, colleagues. We have Bob Mcgru, chief, former chief research officer at OpenAI, former chief research officer at OpenAI, former chief research officer at OpenAI, uh Bos, the CTO of Meta, and Andrew uh Bos, the CTO of Meta, and Andrew uh Bos, the CTO of Meta, and Andrew Wheel, the former chief product officer Wheel, the former chief product officer Wheel, the former chief product officer of OpenAI, head of science now. Uh, and of OpenAI, head of science now. Uh, and of OpenAI, head of science now. Uh, and I think we've been able to work on I think we've been able to work on I think we've been able to work on different projects that really we act as different projects that really we act as different projects that really we act as senior adviserss to army senior leaders senior adviserss to army senior leaders senior adviserss to army senior leaders and there's different projects that we and there's different projects that we and there's different projects that we kind of get our hands dirty in and help. kind of get our hands dirty in and help. kind of get our hands dirty in and help. But I think it's been a really I've But I think it's been a really I've But I think it's been a really I've learned a lot by doing it. Hopefully the learned a lot by doing it. Hopefully the learned a lot by doing it. Hopefully the army's benefiting from it. But I think army's benefiting from it. But I think army's benefiting from it. But I think more broadly we would like to catalyze more broadly we would like to catalyze more broadly we would like to catalyze this across all the services and a this across all the services and a this across all the services and a broader call uh for folks who are broader call uh for folks who are broader call uh for folks who are listening to this now in industry. listening to this now in industry. listening to this now in industry. >> What what's been the biggest surprise? >> What what's been the biggest surprise? >> What what's been the biggest surprise? like I mean you've obviously worked with like I mean you've obviously worked with like I mean you've obviously worked with the department for for years but being the department for for years but being the department for for years but being on the inside now uh what's surprised on the inside now uh what's surprised on the inside now uh what's surprised you you you >> in my so my my focus is really um two >> in my so my my focus is really um two >> in my so my my focus is really um two things I'm I'm helping them think things I'm I'm helping them think things I'm I'm helping them think through through through how to plan force structure over long how to plan force structure over long how to plan force structure over long periods of time so how do I generate the periods of time so how do I generate the periods of time so how do I generate the force I want for all the different force I want for all the different force I want for all the different military occupation specialties uh so military occupation specialties uh so military occupation specialties uh so that's been one but the second part of that's been one but the second part of that's been one but the second part of it is thinking through it is thinking through it is thinking through how do we want to employ software as a how do we want to employ software as a how do we want to employ software as a almost like a malleable weapon system as almost like a malleable weapon system as almost like a malleable weapon system as something that our committ Anders can something that our committ Anders can something that our committ Anders can wield uh to drive advancement and they wield uh to drive advancement and they wield uh to drive advancement and they they call these the operational data they call these the operational data they call these the operational data teams. teams. teams. What's been hugely impressive to me is What's been hugely impressive to me is What's been hugely impressive to me is the quality of talent in our green the quality of talent in our green the quality of talent in our green suitors. People who are not formally suitors. People who are not formally suitors. People who are not formally trained computer scientists, people who trained computer scientists, people who trained computer scientists, people who have just learned these things. The most have just learned these things. The most have just learned these things. The most compelling AI applications I'm seeing compelling AI applications I'm seeing compelling AI applications I'm seeing across commercial or you know, so across commercial or you know, so across commercial or you know, so private sector or public sector are private sector or public sector are private sector or public sector are being built by these green suitors. being built by these green suitors. being built by these green suitors. >> Uh and it's and I think there's >> Uh and it's and I think there's >> Uh and it's and I think there's something about the existential stakes. something about the existential stakes. something about the existential stakes. You know, you're not doing this for fun. You know, you're not doing this for fun. You know, you're not doing this for fun. You're not doing this for 10% You're not doing this for 10% You're not doing this for 10% efficiency. It's a binary outcome, win efficiency. It's a binary outcome, win efficiency. It's a binary outcome, win or lose. The other thing about this or lose. The other thing about this or lose. The other thing about this moment that I think is really moment that I think is really moment that I think is really interesting with AI is it's massively interesting with AI is it's massively interesting with AI is it's massively empowering to people with specific empowering to people with specific empowering to people with specific skills. So, you know, it is the intel skills. So, you know, it is the intel skills. So, you know, it is the intel warrant officer who really knows their warrant officer who really knows their warrant officer who really knows their domain. domain. domain. >> And I was wondering, you know, as >> And I was wondering, you know, as >> And I was wondering, you know, as someone who's been doing this for 20 someone who's been doing this for 20 someone who's been doing this for 20 years, like where was this person 10 years, like where was this person 10 years, like where was this person 10 years ago? years ago? years ago? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And the conclusion I came to is they >> And the conclusion I came to is they >> And the conclusion I came to is they were always there. 10 years ago, what were always there. 10 years ago, what were always there. 10 years ago, what would they have done though with their would they have done though with their would they have done though with their idea? make a PowerPoint slide, brief idea? make a PowerPoint slide, brief idea? make a PowerPoint slide, brief some program bureaucrat who would tell some program bureaucrat who would tell some program bureaucrat who would tell them how bad their idea is. No, because them how bad their idea is. No, because them how bad their idea is. No, because they're smarter than that. They wouldn't they're smarter than that. They wouldn't they're smarter than that. They wouldn't have wasted their time. Now they spend have wasted their time. Now they spend have wasted their time. Now they spend two weeks, they build it themselves. Now two weeks, they build it themselves. Now two weeks, they build it themselves. Now they're having an empirical conversation they're having an empirical conversation they're having an empirical conversation about how what they've built actually about how what they've built actually about how what they've built actually drives the army forward and everyone is drives the army forward and everyone is drives the army forward and everyone is quick to adopt it because everyone wants quick to adopt it because everyone wants quick to adopt it because everyone wants to win. So it's it's been really to win. So it's it's been really to win. So it's it's been really exciting to see that. Um the other part exciting to see that. Um the other part exciting to see that. Um the other part of it I think is uh of it I think is uh of it I think is uh big institutions is it's conserved big institutions is it's conserved big institutions is it's conserved across private sector as well struggle across private sector as well struggle across private sector as well struggle with zero to one. with zero to one. with zero to one. >> Everyone wants to get you know everyone >> Everyone wants to get you know everyone >> Everyone wants to get you know everyone want if if you have some sort of want if if you have some sort of want if if you have some sort of innovation they almost want to rush to innovation they almost want to rush to innovation they almost want to rush to get to N as quickly as possible. How do get to N as quickly as possible. How do get to N as quickly as possible. How do I scale this across the formation? Well I scale this across the formation? Well I scale this across the formation? Well the army is a very big place and the army is a very big place and the army is a very big place and thinking very critically about the thinking very critically about the thinking very critically about the pathing of what is the journey and cycle pathing of what is the journey and cycle pathing of what is the journey and cycle of getting an innovative idea to scale. of getting an innovative idea to scale. of getting an innovative idea to scale. That's literally what we do as an That's literally what we do as an That's literally what we do as an industry all day long, right? And and industry all day long, right? And and industry all day long, right? And and how how do they take and bibe those how how do they take and bibe those how how do they take and bibe those lessons rather than cargo culting their lessons rather than cargo culting their lessons rather than cargo culting their way there, which is frankly what I think way there, which is frankly what I think way there, which is frankly what I think the private sector, you know, large the private sector, you know, large the private sector, you know, large Fortune 100s do as well. So they they Fortune 100s do as well. So they they Fortune 100s do as well. So they they have more to learn from startups in this have more to learn from startups in this have more to learn from startups in this capacity than they do from, you know, capacity than they do from, you know, capacity than they do from, you know, big Fortune 100 companies. big Fortune 100 companies. big Fortune 100 companies. >> Totally. And that's so interesting too >> Totally. And that's so interesting too >> Totally. And that's so interesting too about just, you know, that is something about just, you know, that is something about just, you know, that is something I hear time and time again, like the the I hear time and time again, like the the I hear time and time again, like the the level of technical ability of someone level of technical ability of someone level of technical ability of someone very junior in the Army or the Navy very junior in the Army or the Navy very junior in the Army or the Navy today. It's like they came up tinkering today. It's like they came up tinkering today. It's like they came up tinkering and yes as you said like now the tools and yes as you said like now the tools and yes as you said like now the tools are there they can just build something are there they can just build something are there they can just build something where it's you're not only learning from where it's you're not only learning from where it's you're not only learning from startups you're literally learning from startups you're literally learning from startups you're literally learning from individuals who are enlisted who have a individuals who are enlisted who have a individuals who are enlisted who have a great idea which is it's it it does feel great idea which is it's it it does feel great idea which is it's it it does feel like as you said like this is a like as you said like this is a like as you said like this is a revolutionary time for the military revolutionary time for the military revolutionary time for the military where they can actually learn from their where they can actually learn from their where they can actually learn from their their you know junior people who who their you know junior people who who their you know junior people who who have a great idea and that can be have a great idea and that can be have a great idea and that can be deployed very quickly deployed very quickly deployed very quickly >> which plays to the American military >> which plays to the American military >> which plays to the American military strengths of bottoms up innovation strengths of bottoms up innovation strengths of bottoms up innovation mission command type control um it it's mission command type control um it it's mission command type control um it it's really something that our military can really something that our military can really something that our military can uniquely do that no one else can. uniquely do that no one else can. uniquely do that no one else can. >> Let's get into the the SAS apocalypse. >> Let's get into the the SAS apocalypse. >> Let's get into the the SAS apocalypse. Uh you know there there's a line of Uh you know there there's a line of Uh you know there there's a line of thinking that says hey um now that the thinking that says hey um now that the thinking that says hey um now that the switching costs or now that AI is here switching costs or now that AI is here switching costs or now that AI is here the switching costs are very low you the switching costs are very low you the switching costs are very low you know there's no code moat there's know there's no code moat there's know there's no code moat there's there's no data mo there's no UI moat there's no data mo there's no UI moat there's no data mo there's no UI moat and there's a set of SAS companies that and there's a set of SAS companies that and there's a set of SAS companies that are on the conveyor belt on the way to are on the conveyor belt on the way to are on the conveyor belt on the way to the guilty um and you know maybe it's the guilty um and you know maybe it's the guilty um and you know maybe it's Monday.com first and then maybe it's Monday.com first and then maybe it's Monday.com first and then maybe it's Atlassian and you know companies that Atlassian and you know companies that Atlassian and you know companies that aren't systems of record and then maybe aren't systems of record and then maybe aren't systems of record and then maybe it's it's coming for them too. Um there it's it's coming for them too. Um there it's it's coming for them too. Um there are other people say hey you're not are other people say hey you're not are other people say hey you're not going to vibe code you know Atlassian going to vibe code you know Atlassian going to vibe code you know Atlassian you're not going to vibe code these you're not going to vibe code these you're not going to vibe code these these you know incredible products with these you know incredible products with these you know incredible products with all these integrations and all these you all these integrations and all these you all these integrations and all these you know distribution etc. What say you and know distribution etc. What say you and know distribution etc. What say you and the SAS apocalypse? How do you make the SAS apocalypse? How do you make the SAS apocalypse? How do you make sense of it? sense of it? sense of it? >> I think both things are true. So I have >> I think both things are true. So I have >> I think both things are true. So I have a I would give you a different rubric to a I would give you a different rubric to a I would give you a different rubric to think about it, which is um what think about it, which is um what think about it, which is um what software is really fundamentally about software is really fundamentally about software is really fundamentally about beta and what software is about alpha. beta and what software is about alpha. beta and what software is about alpha. And I think that that the software And I think that that the software And I think that that the software that's about beta is going to really that's about beta is going to really that's about beta is going to really struggle that you know this is this is struggle that you know this is this is struggle that you know this is this is software that made you more similar to software that made you more similar to software that made you more similar to everyone else. And this has been my everyone else. And this has been my everyone else. And this has been my historical critique of the software historical critique of the software historical critique of the software industrial complex which is that the industrial complex which is that the industrial complex which is that the feedback loop for the people building feedback loop for the people building feedback loop for the people building the software is can I sell it? not did the software is can I sell it? not did the software is can I sell it? not did it did it add value which is downstream it did it add value which is downstream it did it add value which is downstream of can you sell it uh and and so the you of can you sell it uh and and so the you of can you sell it uh and and so the you could think of almost like vibe coding could think of almost like vibe coding could think of almost like vibe coding the the advent of AI it allows you to the the advent of AI it allows you to the the advent of AI it allows you to make software that's specific to you make software that's specific to you make software that's specific to you it's inherently alpha focused it's inherently alpha focused it's inherently alpha focused if you do it right uh but I so I think if you do it right uh but I so I think if you do it right uh but I so I think that the platforms that are already that the platforms that are already that the platforms that are already focused on alpha are going to continue focused on alpha are going to continue focused on alpha are going to continue to have an advantage it's like actually to have an advantage it's like actually to have an advantage it's like actually going to be uh a wind that fills their going to be uh a wind that fills their going to be uh a wind that fills their sale up sale up sale up on the other side the stuff that's beta on the other side the stuff that's beta on the other side the stuff that's beta is is really going to struggle. And you is is really going to struggle. And you is is really going to struggle. And you can almost argue like maybe the beta can almost argue like maybe the beta can almost argue like maybe the beta wasn't that valuable to begin with. One wasn't that valuable to begin with. One wasn't that valuable to begin with. One one of the jarring moments for me was in one of the jarring moments for me was in one of the jarring moments for me was in COVID if you really look back at what COVID if you really look back at what COVID if you really look back at what were CEOs talking about in their were CEOs talking about in their were CEOs talking about in their earnings calls about software. They no earnings calls about software. They no earnings calls about software. They no one talked about the $5 billion ERP one talked about the $5 billion ERP one talked about the $5 billion ERP implementation they did that saved their implementation they did that saved their implementation they did that saved their supply chain because all of them fell supply chain because all of them fell supply chain because all of them fell over like paper tigers in two weeks. And over like paper tigers in two weeks. And over like paper tigers in two weeks. And what they were talking about was Zoom what they were talking about was Zoom what they were talking about was Zoom and Teams and how that enabled them to and Teams and how that enabled them to and Teams and how that enabled them to go remote. And you cannot think of like go remote. And you cannot think of like go remote. And you cannot think of like that's crazy. That is that that should that's crazy. That is that that should that's crazy. That is that that should have been a sputnick moment for the have been a sputnick moment for the have been a sputnick moment for the software industry to say, "Wow, we software industry to say, "Wow, we software industry to say, "Wow, we haven't built that's valuable." haven't built that's valuable." haven't built that's valuable." How depressing. Um and How depressing. Um and How depressing. Um and on the flip side, for us at least, CO on the flip side, for us at least, CO on the flip side, for us at least, CO was a huge tailwind because specifically was a huge tailwind because specifically was a huge tailwind because specifically because we were able to help our our because we were able to help our our because we were able to help our our customers adapt to this reality at the customers adapt to this reality at the customers adapt to this reality at the speed of the disruption. It it I think speed of the disruption. It it I think speed of the disruption. It it I think it kind of separated the wheat from the it kind of separated the wheat from the it kind of separated the wheat from the chaff. And I think we'll kind of see chaff. And I think we'll kind of see chaff. And I think we'll kind of see that, you know, maybe there's a lot of that, you know, maybe there's a lot of that, you know, maybe there's a lot of things we've been spending on almost things we've been spending on almost things we've been spending on almost mimemetically, like, well, other people mimemetically, like, well, other people mimemetically, like, well, other people use it for this. This is a standard use it for this. This is a standard use it for this. This is a standard industry solution for X. Those things industry solution for X. Those things industry solution for X. Those things are going to feel a lot of pressure. And are going to feel a lot of pressure. And are going to feel a lot of pressure. And on the on the flip side, they're going on the on the flip side, they're going on the on the flip side, they're going to be software that's almost almost like to be software that's almost almost like to be software that's almost almost like a toolkit, an approach that allows you a toolkit, an approach that allows you a toolkit, an approach that allows you to express how you're more different to express how you're more different to express how you're more different than other companies. It's almost become than other companies. It's almost become than other companies. It's almost become software that allows you to express your software that allows you to express your software that allows you to express your competitive advantage, your strategy is competitive advantage, your strategy is competitive advantage, your strategy is going to be a premium on the day two going to be a premium on the day two going to be a premium on the day two stuff like vibe coding. you can't do. I stuff like vibe coding. you can't do. I stuff like vibe coding. you can't do. I think that's actually true. Like I think think that's actually true. Like I think think that's actually true. Like I think it's actually true that day two is much it's actually true that day two is much it's actually true that day two is much harder. A lot of it's unsolved and harder. A lot of it's unsolved and harder. A lot of it's unsolved and you're going to have to figure that out. you're going to have to figure that out. you're going to have to figure that out. But I don't think that's going to But I don't think that's going to But I don't think that's going to preclude the pressure on the beta on the preclude the pressure on the beta on the preclude the pressure on the beta on the beta software. beta software. beta software. >> Yeah. In in terms of acrewing value >> Yeah. In in terms of acrewing value >> Yeah. In in terms of acrewing value right now, it seems like the hardware right now, it seems like the hardware right now, it seems like the hardware layer has the highest margins. Um layer has the highest margins. Um layer has the highest margins. Um whereas in the internet economy, the the whereas in the internet economy, the the whereas in the internet economy, the the applications had the highest margins. applications had the highest margins. applications had the highest margins. I'm curious if you think um AI will be I'm curious if you think um AI will be I'm curious if you think um AI will be like like the internet where sort of the like like the internet where sort of the like like the internet where sort of the entities that control the end user entities that control the end user entities that control the end user relationships acrew the most value or if relationships acrew the most value or if relationships acrew the most value or if you think it'll be more like the cloud you think it'll be more like the cloud you think it'll be more like the cloud where the infrastructure layer is the is where the infrastructure layer is the is where the infrastructure layer is the is is is is the most accur the most value is is is the most accur the most value is is is the most accur the most value or has the highest margins how do you or has the highest margins how do you or has the highest margins how do you think about how it'll play out? think about how it'll play out? think about how it'll play out? uh if you thought about the the stack as uh if you thought about the the stack as uh if you thought about the the stack as like chips, models, AI infrastructure, like chips, models, AI infrastructure, like chips, models, AI infrastructure, AI applications, what I see happening AI applications, what I see happening AI applications, what I see happening empirically is um the the models are empirically is um the the models are empirically is um the the models are being commoditized and we're always being commoditized and we're always being commoditized and we're always under pressure. So the model companies under pressure. So the model companies under pressure. So the model companies are expanding up sometimes they they are expanding up sometimes they they are expanding up sometimes they they almost call it in a dimunive way a almost call it in a dimunive way a almost call it in a dimunive way a harness, but it's actually they're harness, but it's actually they're harness, but it's actually they're building software around it that is AI building software around it that is AI building software around it that is AI infrastructure to do something like like infrastructure to do something like like infrastructure to do something like like code. Uh and then the the people who code. Uh and then the the people who code. Uh and then the the people who started as narrow vertical AI solutions started as narrow vertical AI solutions started as narrow vertical AI solutions are kind of earning their way down the are kind of earning their way down the are kind of earning their way down the stack to realize like oh I need this stack to realize like oh I need this stack to realize like oh I need this actual AI infrastructure to be able to actual AI infrastructure to be able to actual AI infrastructure to be able to scale to my customer base and handle scale to my customer base and handle scale to my customer base and handle more use cases. So our theory has always more use cases. So our theory has always more use cases. So our theory has always been the value is going to acrew in two been the value is going to acrew in two been the value is going to acrew in two places at the chips layer and at the AI places at the chips layer and at the AI places at the chips layer and at the AI infrastructure layer what we would call infrastructure layer what we would call infrastructure layer what we would call ontology but those those two layers I ontology but those those two layers I ontology but those those two layers I think are going to be pretty defensible. think are going to be pretty defensible. think are going to be pretty defensible. There's this funny chart in the There's this funny chart in the There's this funny chart in the economist the other day about what's economist the other day about what's economist the other day about what's going to happen to the economy and it going to happen to the economy and it going to happen to the economy and it gives three uh three prediction. Either gives three uh three prediction. Either gives three uh three prediction. Either everything goes to the uh you know goes everything goes to the uh you know goes everything goes to the uh you know goes vertical a AGI uh either you know we're vertical a AGI uh either you know we're vertical a AGI uh either you know we're all uh dead or you know we're all all uh dead or you know we're all all uh dead or you know we're all economically dead everything collapses economically dead everything collapses economically dead everything collapses or you know 2% growth um and so uh you or you know 2% growth um and so uh you or you know 2% growth um and so uh you know uh the economist is uh is is know uh the economist is uh is is know uh the economist is uh is is hedging just like many others. Um I'm hedging just like many others. Um I'm hedging just like many others. Um I'm I'm curious how you what's your sort of I'm curious how you what's your sort of I'm curious how you what's your sort of mental model for what AI is going to do mental model for what AI is going to do mental model for what AI is going to do to the economy in terms of you know the to the economy in terms of you know the to the economy in terms of you know the productivity stats and GDP growth. Um productivity stats and GDP growth. Um productivity stats and GDP growth. Um but then also the the the job market and but then also the the the job market and but then also the the the job market and I I mean AI as it achieves its goals of I I mean AI as it achieves its goals of I I mean AI as it achieves its goals of over the medium term and and we sort of over the medium term and and we sort of over the medium term and and we sort of you know start to reach the the you know start to reach the the you know start to reach the the potential that people have been talking potential that people have been talking potential that people have been talking about. You know people say AI 2027 it's about. You know people say AI 2027 it's about. You know people say AI 2027 it's or even if it's 2030 h how do you think or even if it's 2030 h how do you think or even if it's 2030 h how do you think it's going to impact the economy? it's going to impact the economy? it's going to impact the economy? >> I have a lot of thoughts here so >> I have a lot of thoughts here so >> I have a lot of thoughts here so hopefully we'll hit them all and I won't hopefully we'll hit them all and I won't hopefully we'll hit them all and I won't forget them as we go through this. So forget them as we go through this. So forget them as we go through this. So the the first bit is what always irks me the the first bit is what always irks me the the first bit is what always irks me about how we talk about AI is as if about how we talk about AI is as if about how we talk about AI is as if somehow we have no human agency. AI is somehow we have no human agency. AI is somehow we have no human agency. AI is going to do X. No, that's not right. going to do X. No, that's not right. going to do X. No, that's not right. Humans are going to use AI to do X. Humans are going to use AI to do X. Humans are going to use AI to do X. There's a choice here. Do we want to There's a choice here. Do we want to There's a choice here. Do we want to invest in AI slop and essentially AI invest in AI slop and essentially AI invest in AI slop and essentially AI slot to borrow an expression from from slot to borrow an expression from from slot to borrow an expression from from John Coulson, Patrick Coulson? No. I John Coulson, Patrick Coulson? No. I John Coulson, Patrick Coulson? No. I think these things are I don't want to think these things are I don't want to think these things are I don't want to invest in that at least. So what is our invest in that at least. So what is our invest in that at least. So what is our normative view of why AI is valuable? normative view of why AI is valuable? normative view of why AI is valuable? How does how does it result in American How does how does it result in American How does how does it result in American prosperity? How does it make our society prosperity? How does it make our society prosperity? How does it make our society better not worse? And restoring the fact better not worse? And restoring the fact better not worse? And restoring the fact that we we have agency and therefore an that we we have agency and therefore an that we we have agency and therefore an obligation to steer this in a specific obligation to steer this in a specific obligation to steer this in a specific way. So that's the first part of it. way. So that's the first part of it. way. So that's the first part of it. Then if okay if we have agency what is Then if okay if we have agency what is Then if okay if we have agency what is that? You know my my view of this is we that? You know my my view of this is we that? You know my my view of this is we have a historic opportunity to fix the have a historic opportunity to fix the have a historic opportunity to fix the fundamental breakdown that happened in fundamental breakdown that happened in fundamental breakdown that happened in the 70s between wage growth and GDP the 70s between wage growth and GDP the 70s between wage growth and GDP growth. uh that this should be if we growth. uh that this should be if we growth. uh that this should be if we look at just the the example we have look at just the the example we have look at just the the example we have about the intel warrant officer who's about the intel warrant officer who's about the intel warrant officer who's suddenly able to do so much. Well, I see suddenly able to do so much. Well, I see suddenly able to do so much. Well, I see that playing out on the ICU floor. I see that playing out on the ICU floor. I see that playing out on the ICU floor. I see that playing out on the factory floor. that playing out on the factory floor. that playing out on the factory floor. There is an opportunity to give the There is an opportunity to give the There is an opportunity to give the American worker superpowers with AI. American worker superpowers with AI. American worker superpowers with AI. It's David Slingshot in a world where It's David Slingshot in a world where It's David Slingshot in a world where the Chinese Goliath has been this giant the Chinese Goliath has been this giant the Chinese Goliath has been this giant sucking sound of American prosperity. sucking sound of American prosperity. sucking sound of American prosperity. uh uh uh if we do that, it's a basis for if we do that, it's a basis for if we do that, it's a basis for underwriting the re-industrialization of underwriting the re-industrialization of underwriting the re-industrialization of the country and that we're not going to the country and that we're not going to the country and that we're not going to do this symmetrically. That's why it's a do this symmetrically. That's why it's a do this symmetrically. That's why it's a slingshot. It's not like, hey, this is slingshot. It's not like, hey, this is slingshot. It's not like, hey, this is how they do it there. We're going to do how they do it there. We're going to do how they do it there. We're going to do this here. It's it's actually we're this here. It's it's actually we're this here. It's it's actually we're going to do this in entirely new ways. going to do this in entirely new ways. going to do this in entirely new ways. Like Hadrien is a perfect example of Like Hadrien is a perfect example of Like Hadrien is a perfect example of that, right? We are re-industrializing that, right? We are re-industrializing that, right? We are re-industrializing using technology, making these people using technology, making these people using technology, making these people 50, 100 times more productive than it 50, 100 times more productive than it 50, 100 times more productive than it could be otherwise. And it's going to could be otherwise. And it's going to could be otherwise. And it's going to lead to all sorts of of new lead to all sorts of of new lead to all sorts of of new possibilities in particular because I possibilities in particular because I possibilities in particular because I think the great lie of globalization is think the great lie of globalization is think the great lie of globalization is that we can do the innovation over here that we can do the innovation over here that we can do the innovation over here and we're going to have the production and we're going to have the production and we're going to have the production go over there. Well, guess what? go over there. Well, guess what? go over there. Well, guess what? Innovation is a consequence of Innovation is a consequence of Innovation is a consequence of productivity. If you don't make the productivity. If you don't make the productivity. If you don't make the thing, you can't innovate on how you thing, you can't innovate on how you thing, you can't innovate on how you make the thing and what the thing is. make the thing and what the thing is. make the thing and what the thing is. You see that with SpaceX. There's a You see that with SpaceX. There's a You see that with SpaceX. There's a reason the R&D engineers are colllocated reason the R&D engineers are colllocated reason the R&D engineers are colllocated on the production floor. What is the on the production floor. What is the on the production floor. What is the feedback loop and cycle time they expect feedback loop and cycle time they expect feedback loop and cycle time they expect to come out of that? And you see that in to come out of that? And you see that in to come out of that? And you see that in the negative where we used to think Wooi the negative where we used to think Wooi the negative where we used to think Wooi was just some cheap set of pipe heading was just some cheap set of pipe heading was just some cheap set of pipe heading arms for contract pharmaceutical arms for contract pharmaceutical arms for contract pharmaceutical research and now 50% of all clinical research and now 50% of all clinical research and now 50% of all clinical trials are being done in China. Uh and trials are being done in China. Uh and trials are being done in China. Uh and and so I think we should view this as a and so I think we should view this as a and so I think we should view this as a national emergency and a national national emergency and a national national emergency and a national opportunity uh around AI. And what what opportunity uh around AI. And what what opportunity uh around AI. And what what concerns me a bit these these technology concerns me a bit these these technology concerns me a bit these these technology revolutions are usually by like the vast revolutions are usually by like the vast revolutions are usually by like the vast vast majority are tool revolutions not vast majority are tool revolutions not vast majority are tool revolutions not concept revolutions. concept revolutions. concept revolutions. It was not Galileo who invented the It was not Galileo who invented the It was not Galileo who invented the telescope. He used it to discover telescope. He used it to discover telescope. He used it to discover planetary motion. It was the the future planetary motion. It was the the future planetary motion. It was the the future of these technologies, the microscope, of these technologies, the microscope, of these technologies, the microscope, the power loom, the telescope, the the power loom, the telescope, the the power loom, the telescope, the personal computer. Uh they are personal computer. Uh they are personal computer. Uh they are determined not by the inventor of the determined not by the inventor of the determined not by the inventor of the technology but by the people who wield technology but by the people who wield technology but by the people who wield the technology. Today when we listen to the technology. Today when we listen to the technology. Today when we listen to the AI dumerism, we're listening to the the AI dumerism, we're listening to the the AI dumerism, we're listening to the inventors who are incredibly smart. But inventors who are incredibly smart. But inventors who are incredibly smart. But just like their creations, they have just like their creations, they have just like their creations, they have their own jagged intelligence. you know, their own jagged intelligence. you know, their own jagged intelligence. you know, just because they were smart at building just because they were smart at building just because they were smart at building the model doesn't mean they're going to the model doesn't mean they're going to the model doesn't mean they're going to be right about the implications of it. be right about the implications of it. be right about the implications of it. Uh, and then we are Uh, and then we are Uh, and then we are implicitly giving up our own human implicitly giving up our own human implicitly giving up our own human agency and how to steer it. It is us as agency and how to steer it. It is us as agency and how to steer it. It is us as the wielders of it that are going to the wielders of it that are going to the wielders of it that are going to determine the future course of this determine the future course of this determine the future course of this technology. And I see, you know, maybe technology. And I see, you know, maybe technology. And I see, you know, maybe the most authentic thing about that uh the most authentic thing about that uh the most authentic thing about that uh economist graph is those range of economist graph is those range of economist graph is those range of outcomes are exactly what's possible. outcomes are exactly what's possible. outcomes are exactly what's possible. And it's up to us to pick which one we And it's up to us to pick which one we And it's up to us to pick which one we want to be on. It's a choice we're want to be on. It's a choice we're want to be on. It's a choice we're making. It's not something that's being making. It's not something that's being making. It's not something that's being done to us. done to us. done to us. >> Yeah. No, you you just said something so >> Yeah. No, you you just said something so >> Yeah. No, you you just said something so interesting that I think is is interesting that I think is is interesting that I think is is underexplored which is the the underexplored which is the the underexplored which is the the collocation of R&D and production which collocation of R&D and production which collocation of R&D and production which is something we very much understood is something we very much understood is something we very much understood that was sort of you know that's the that was sort of you know that's the that was sort of you know that's the that's the Henry Ford style right like that's the Henry Ford style right like that's the Henry Ford style right like that that's how we used to build things that that's how we used to build things that that's how we used to build things in the physical world and then of course in the physical world and then of course in the physical world and then of course globalization led to this sort of globalization led to this sort of globalization led to this sort of separation of them and even you still separation of them and even you still separation of them and even you still see it in companies right it's like the see it in companies right it's like the see it in companies right it's like the engineering team in many companies is engineering team in many companies is engineering team in many companies is not the same as the production team you not the same as the production team you not the same as the production team you can be a production company or an can be a production company or an can be a production company or an engineering company we see this a lot in engineering company we see this a lot in engineering company we see this a lot in our American dynamism portfolio our American dynamism portfolio our American dynamism portfolio what was the impetus for sort of that what was the impetus for sort of that what was the impetus for sort of that philosophical division? Um, you know, I philosophical division? Um, you know, I philosophical division? Um, you know, I think a lot of people point to policy think a lot of people point to policy think a lot of people point to policy changes in the '9s, but what was like changes in the '9s, but what was like changes in the '9s, but what was like the real impetus from your research that the real impetus from your research that the real impetus from your research that that sort of led to this sort of divorce that sort of led to this sort of divorce that sort of led to this sort of divorce between production and engineering and between production and engineering and between production and engineering and and how are you seeing it come back and how are you seeing it come back and how are you seeing it come back together again in companies today? together again in companies today? together again in companies today? >> Europe has created exactly zero >> Europe has created exactly zero >> Europe has created exactly zero companies from scratch in the last 50 companies from scratch in the last 50 companies from scratch in the last 50 years worth more than a hundred billion years worth more than a hundred billion years worth more than a hundred billion euro. We have created all of our euro. We have created all of our euro. We have created all of our trillion dollar companies from scratch trillion dollar companies from scratch trillion dollar companies from scratch in America in the last 50 years. in America in the last 50 years. in America in the last 50 years. >> The difference is founders. You know, >> The difference is founders. You know, >> The difference is founders. You know, you have really good companies over you have really good companies over you have really good companies over there, but they're like 300 years old, there, but they're like 300 years old, there, but they're like 300 years old, 100 years old, whatever it is. 100 years old, whatever it is. 100 years old, whatever it is. Uh what we we we kind of had the Europe Uh what we we we kind of had the Europe Uh what we we we kind of had the Europe Europeanization of our mega cap Europeanization of our mega cap Europeanization of our mega cap companies until recently. you know, companies until recently. you know, companies until recently. you know, Intel at some point there was this fork Intel at some point there was this fork Intel at some point there was this fork in the road where they could they could in the road where they could they could in the road where they could they could have promoted their CFO to be the CEO or have promoted their CFO to be the CEO or have promoted their CFO to be the CEO or Pat Galsinger as CTO back then. This is Pat Galsinger as CTO back then. This is Pat Galsinger as CTO back then. This is before he came back later to be CEO. Who before he came back later to be CEO. Who before he came back later to be CEO. Who did they pick? They picked the CFO, the did they pick? They picked the CFO, the did they pick? They picked the CFO, the person that Wall Street would person that Wall Street would person that Wall Street would understand. Um, not the person who could understand. Um, not the person who could understand. Um, not the person who could actually determine the future roadap. actually determine the future roadap. actually determine the future roadap. And by the way, it really looked like it And by the way, it really looked like it And by the way, it really looked like it was working for 10 years until it fell was working for 10 years until it fell was working for 10 years until it fell off a cliff. off a cliff. off a cliff. >> But that was all financial engineering, >> But that was all financial engineering, >> But that was all financial engineering, not real engineering. not real engineering. not real engineering. uh you know when was the the last Boeing uh you know when was the the last Boeing uh you know when was the the last Boeing CEO to be an engineer I think was 2004 CEO to be an engineer I think was 2004 CEO to be an engineer I think was 2004 you know there there was a way there so you know there there was a way there so you know there there was a way there so you think about there's a period of time you think about there's a period of time you think about there's a period of time in our economy where we understood that in our economy where we understood that in our economy where we understood that the engineering was leaving these things the engineering was leaving these things the engineering was leaving these things Elon says the pathway to the CEO is Elon says the pathway to the CEO is Elon says the pathway to the CEO is through the CTO which sounds like a through the CTO which sounds like a through the CTO which sounds like a crazy heretical statement because like crazy heretical statement because like crazy heretical statement because like certainly for my generation the way we certainly for my generation the way we certainly for my generation the way we grew up that's not true grew up that's not true grew up that's not true >> that's not how that's not what we were >> that's not how that's not what we were >> that's not how that's not what we were taught taught taught >> um now I'm I'm not saying that because >> um now I'm I'm not saying that because >> um now I'm I'm not saying that because I'm the CTO here don't read anything I'm the CTO here don't read anything I'm the CTO here don't read anything into that I just it just mean that like into that I just it just mean that like into that I just it just mean that like >> yeah we won't infer You're breaking news >> yeah we won't infer You're breaking news >> yeah we won't infer You're breaking news today. today. today. >> Thank you. Andy Grove, who was the >> Thank you. Andy Grove, who was the >> Thank you. Andy Grove, who was the president of Intel, used to start his president of Intel, used to start his president of Intel, used to start his annual sales and marketing kickoff annual sales and marketing kickoff annual sales and marketing kickoff meeting by reminding all the meeting by reminding all the meeting by reminding all the salespeople. Just remember, it's the salespeople. Just remember, it's the salespeople. Just remember, it's the engineers who create all the value. You engineers who create all the value. You engineers who create all the value. You guys just move it around, you know, and guys just move it around, you know, and guys just move it around, you know, and it doesn't mean the sales people aren't it doesn't mean the sales people aren't it doesn't mean the sales people aren't important or aren't necessary, but there important or aren't necessary, but there important or aren't necessary, but there is kind of a sequencing here. And I is kind of a sequencing here. And I is kind of a sequencing here. And I think we kind of got very confused about think we kind of got very confused about think we kind of got very confused about that that we became very good at that that we became very good at that that we became very good at financial engineering and forgot about financial engineering and forgot about financial engineering and forgot about engineering. One thing one of our engineering. One thing one of our engineering. One thing one of our portfolio CEOs said is that maybe portfolio CEOs said is that maybe portfolio CEOs said is that maybe salespeople are the are the least AIable salespeople are the are the least AIable salespeople are the are the least AIable in terms of being able to uh to be in terms of being able to uh to be in terms of being able to uh to be automated or or replaced. I'm I'm automated or or replaced. I'm I'm automated or or replaced. I'm I'm curious how you think about um sort of curious how you think about um sort of curious how you think about um sort of the the jobs that tech companies um you the the jobs that tech companies um you the the jobs that tech companies um you know leveraging with AI how you're using know leveraging with AI how you're using know leveraging with AI how you're using in your your own uh you know in in your your own uh you know in in your your own uh you know in Palunteer. How do you think about that? Palunteer. How do you think about that? Palunteer. How do you think about that? >> Yeah. Um the so one one part I was I was >> Yeah. Um the so one one part I was I was >> Yeah. Um the so one one part I was I was going to say from earlier that I think going to say from earlier that I think going to say from earlier that I think is relevant to this is is relevant to this is is relevant to this is you know Pascal said every human has a you know Pascal said every human has a you know Pascal said every human has a god-shaped hole in their heart and part god-shaped hole in their heart and part god-shaped hole in their heart and part of the uh potential pathology from the of the uh potential pathology from the of the uh potential pathology from the labs is that they have filled that hole labs is that they have filled that hole labs is that they have filled that hole with AGI and so there are things that with AGI and so there are things that with AGI and so there are things that they assert as empirical that are they assert as empirical that are they assert as empirical that are actually articles of faith. They may be actually articles of faith. They may be actually articles of faith. They may be true, they may not be true, I don't know true, they may not be true, I don't know true, they may not be true, I don't know but they get confused between what's an but they get confused between what's an but they get confused between what's an article of faith and what is actually an article of faith and what is actually an article of faith and what is actually an empirical reality. Uh, and so if you empirical reality. Uh, and so if you empirical reality. Uh, and so if you viewed this through a very pragmatic, viewed this through a very pragmatic, viewed this through a very pragmatic, cleareyed view, say the salespeople, I'm cleareyed view, say the salespeople, I'm cleareyed view, say the salespeople, I'm not sure why the goal is replacing not sure why the goal is replacing not sure why the goal is replacing people to begin with. Like, isn't the people to begin with. Like, isn't the people to begin with. Like, isn't the goal to win? Isn't the goal to be goal to win? Isn't the goal to be goal to win? Isn't the goal to be dominant in your industry? Um, dominant in your industry? Um, dominant in your industry? Um, you want to be better. And so maybe you want to be better. And so maybe you want to be better. And so maybe being better is about a mixed mammal AI being better is about a mixed mammal AI being better is about a mixed mammal AI teammate. It's, you know, how do I build teammate. It's, you know, how do I build teammate. It's, you know, how do I build the iron man suit for the sales people I the iron man suit for the sales people I the iron man suit for the sales people I do have? How do I make the best do have? How do I make the best do have? How do I make the best salespeople more productive and salespeople more productive and salespeople more productive and systematize what is it that makes them systematize what is it that makes them systematize what is it that makes them good for everyone else? Like there's all good for everyone else? Like there's all good for everyone else? Like there's all sorts of other ways of thinking about sorts of other ways of thinking about sorts of other ways of thinking about the problem. if your goal is winning, the problem. if your goal is winning, the problem. if your goal is winning, but if your goal is AGI, it's it's the but if your goal is AGI, it's it's the but if your goal is AGI, it's it's the aesthetic of the fact that you couldn't aesthetic of the fact that you couldn't aesthetic of the fact that you couldn't replace the person with this model is replace the person with this model is replace the person with this model is offensive and you're just going to, you offensive and you're just going to, you offensive and you're just going to, you know, you're just going to keep driving know, you're just going to keep driving know, you're just going to keep driving at that. And I think uh it could be at that. And I think uh it could be at that. And I think uh it could be could be a distraction. This is one way could be a distraction. This is one way could be a distraction. This is one way in which I think the Chinese do have a in which I think the Chinese do have a in which I think the Chinese do have a little bit of an advantage, which is um little bit of an advantage, which is um little bit of an advantage, which is um for first of all, just to be clear, I'd for first of all, just to be clear, I'd for first of all, just to be clear, I'd bet on us, you know, 100 times out of bet on us, you know, 100 times out of bet on us, you know, 100 times out of 100, but they're they have a pragmatic 100, but they're they have a pragmatic 100, but they're they have a pragmatic approach like the whole point of AG of approach like the whole point of AG of approach like the whole point of AG of of AI is to win. It's not AGI. Uh it's of AI is to win. It's not AGI. Uh it's of AI is to win. It's not AGI. Uh it's how do I how do I improve my productive how do I how do I improve my productive how do I how do I improve my productive forces as they would call it. Now I forces as they would call it. Now I forces as they would call it. Now I think that the good news is if you look think that the good news is if you look think that the good news is if you look at the people who wield the technology at the people who wield the technology at the people who wield the technology in America, that's what they're focused in America, that's what they're focused in America, that's what they're focused on. You know, the CEOs I deal with, none on. You know, the CEOs I deal with, none on. You know, the CEOs I deal with, none of them have asked me, "Hey, I want to of them have asked me, "Hey, I want to of them have asked me, "Hey, I want to fire a bunch of people or how do I get fire a bunch of people or how do I get fire a bunch of people or how do I get rid of these people that maybe because rid of these people that maybe because rid of these people that maybe because we're too expensive for that sort of we're too expensive for that sort of we're too expensive for that sort of use case, but they come to me use case, but they come to me use case, but they come to me and say, I want to dominate my industry. and say, I want to dominate my industry. and say, I want to dominate my industry. Like I want to destroy my competition." Like I want to destroy my competition." Like I want to destroy my competition." Okay, great. So the ambition is there Okay, great. So the ambition is there Okay, great. So the ambition is there and maybe you get more efficient by and maybe you get more efficient by and maybe you get more efficient by doing it but actually the whole point is doing it but actually the whole point is doing it but actually the whole point is to is to grow massively. So that that to is to grow massively. So that that to is to grow massively. So that that ambition sets the frame of how you're ambition sets the frame of how you're ambition sets the frame of how you're going to apply the technology and what going to apply the technology and what going to apply the technology and what sort of solutions you find valuable sort of solutions you find valuable sort of solutions you find valuable speaking of China h how do we win the AI speaking of China h how do we win the AI speaking of China h how do we win the AI race particularly as it moves towards race particularly as it moves towards race particularly as it moves towards more physical AI and and robotics etc. more physical AI and and robotics etc. more physical AI and and robotics etc. What are the things to make sure we get What are the things to make sure we get What are the things to make sure we get right or the things we need to we need right or the things we need to we need right or the things we need to we need to fix? I think our biggest risk as a to fix? I think our biggest risk as a to fix? I think our biggest risk as a country is suicide, not homicide. You country is suicide, not homicide. You country is suicide, not homicide. You know, I I have anyone who knows me knows know, I I have anyone who knows me knows know, I I have anyone who knows me knows I'm I'm a big China hawk and I think I'm I'm a big China hawk and I think I'm I'm a big China hawk and I think part of the the challenge with China is part of the the challenge with China is part of the the challenge with China is it's not enough for the CCP to prosper, it's not enough for the CCP to prosper, it's not enough for the CCP to prosper, America must also fall. Like look, if America must also fall. Like look, if America must also fall. Like look, if you want to buy our soybeans or not, I you want to buy our soybeans or not, I you want to buy our soybeans or not, I don't begrudge you. That's a business don't begrudge you. That's a business don't begrudge you. That's a business decision. That's free trade. What? decision. That's free trade. What? decision. That's free trade. What? Great. But when you're trying to smuggle Great. But when you're trying to smuggle Great. But when you're trying to smuggle in agricultural funguses so that we in agricultural funguses so that we in agricultural funguses so that we can't grow soybeans, that's a different can't grow soybeans, that's a different can't grow soybeans, that's a different ballgame altogether. And that that ballgame altogether. And that that ballgame altogether. And that that offends my kind of American Calvinist offends my kind of American Calvinist offends my kind of American Calvinist sensibilities of fair play. But so all sensibilities of fair play. But so all sensibilities of fair play. But so all that said, that would that would make it that said, that would that would make it that said, that would that would make it seem like I care a lot about homicide. seem like I care a lot about homicide. seem like I care a lot about homicide. But I think our problem is actually one But I think our problem is actually one But I think our problem is actually one of national will and focus and like are of national will and focus and like are of national will and focus and like are we actually addressing the problems that we actually addressing the problems that we actually addressing the problems that we face here? Are we encouraging the we face here? Are we encouraging the we face here? Are we encouraging the agency and our people to believe the agency and our people to believe the agency and our people to believe the world can be better? You know, this world can be better? You know, this world can be better? You know, this manifests in a sense of just kind of manifests in a sense of just kind of manifests in a sense of just kind of like nealism and polarization that that like nealism and polarization that that like nealism and polarization that that we forget what makes us what unites us we forget what makes us what unites us we forget what makes us what unites us and we focus on what divides us. Uh and and we focus on what divides us. Uh and and we focus on what divides us. Uh and there's this kind of sense like hey there's this kind of sense like hey there's this kind of sense like hey nothing really works and doesn't really nothing really works and doesn't really nothing really works and doesn't really matter so let's just burn it all down. matter so let's just burn it all down. matter so let's just burn it all down. Uh and a big part of like how I think of Uh and a big part of like how I think of Uh and a big part of like how I think of what pounder does in the world is it it what pounder does in the world is it it what pounder does in the world is it it is about the legitimacy of our is about the legitimacy of our is about the legitimacy of our institutions like whether it's doors institutions like whether it's doors institutions like whether it's doors falling off planes or basic government falling off planes or basic government falling off planes or basic government services working these institutions services working these institutions services working these institutions should all work excellently in the should all work excellently in the should all work excellently in the absence of them working uh it breeds absence of them working uh it breeds absence of them working uh it breeds this nealism and then you you get the this nealism and then you you get the this nealism and then you you get the wrong reaction to it. So that's what wrong reaction to it. So that's what wrong reaction to it. So that's what that's what I think we should focus on that's what I think we should focus on that's what I think we should focus on addressing. So now to physical AI the addressing. So now to physical AI the addressing. So now to physical AI the point of having an ambition like let's point of having an ambition like let's point of having an ambition like let's reindustrialize let's be maximalist reindustrialize let's be maximalist reindustrialize let's be maximalist about this not some sort of half measure about this not some sort of half measure about this not some sort of half measure that's like a little bit of French that's like a little bit of French that's like a little bit of French shoring here or there or whatever it's shoring here or there or whatever it's shoring here or there or whatever it's like no we invented all of these like no we invented all of these like no we invented all of these technologies we invented mass production technologies we invented mass production technologies we invented mass production we invented nuclear power thing after we invented nuclear power thing after we invented nuclear power thing after thing after thing it's like the idea thing after thing it's like the idea thing after thing it's like the idea that somehow the American people are not that somehow the American people are not that somehow the American people are not capable of this thing how is that capable of this thing how is that capable of this thing how is that beggars belief right so I think it's beggars belief right so I think it's beggars belief right so I think it's actually about will and motivation and actually about will and motivation and actually about will and motivation and leadership leadership leadership >> yeah no I think that that is such a good >> yeah no I think that that is such a good >> yeah no I think that that is such a good segue into what you're doing in terms of segue into what you're doing in terms of segue into what you're doing in terms of building culture because I I think this building culture because I I think this building culture because I I think this is something that um is overlooked. A is something that um is overlooked. A is something that um is overlooked. A lot of people think it's a technical lot of people think it's a technical lot of people think it's a technical problem or a production problem and and problem or a production problem and and problem or a production problem and and I agree with you that I think it's it's I agree with you that I think it's it's I agree with you that I think it's it's a seriousness and a will problem. Um and a seriousness and a will problem. Um and a seriousness and a will problem. Um and you have now been investing in film uh you have now been investing in film uh you have now been investing in film uh which is totally different than what you which is totally different than what you which is totally different than what you do at Palanteer. So I would love to do at Palanteer. So I would love to do at Palanteer. So I would love to understand you know why did you start a understand you know why did you start a understand you know why did you start a a film production company? Um and how do a film production company? Um and how do a film production company? Um and how do you think that's ultimately going to you think that's ultimately going to you think that's ultimately going to change the culture around having more change the culture around having more change the culture around having more will about doing these hard things? will about doing these hard things? will about doing these hard things? Well, my it really starts with my own Well, my it really starts with my own Well, my it really starts with my own assimilation journey. You know, I I came assimilation journey. You know, I I came assimilation journey. You know, I I came to the US as a as a young child. I to the US as a as a young child. I to the US as a as a young child. I settled in Orlando and my assimilation settled in Orlando and my assimilation settled in Orlando and my assimilation journey as a four-year-old, 5-year-old journey as a four-year-old, 5-year-old journey as a four-year-old, 5-year-old was watching movies with dad on the was watching movies with dad on the was watching movies with dad on the couch. And what were the movies of the couch. And what were the movies of the couch. And what were the movies of the 80s and 90s? It was Hunt for Red October 80s and 90s? It was Hunt for Red October 80s and 90s? It was Hunt for Red October and Red Dawn and Rambo 2 and three. And, and Red Dawn and Rambo 2 and three. And, and Red Dawn and Rambo 2 and three. And, you know, I like to say as a 5-year-old, you know, I like to say as a 5-year-old, you know, I like to say as a 5-year-old, I knew what it felt like to be an I knew what it felt like to be an I knew what it felt like to be an American before I knew civics. That was American before I knew civics. That was American before I knew civics. That was way, way down the line. Uh, and I think way, way down the line. Uh, and I think way, way down the line. Uh, and I think a lot of people experience that again a lot of people experience that again a lot of people experience that again after a long period of time when they after a long period of time when they after a long period of time when they watch Top Gun Maverick. And so for, you watch Top Gun Maverick. And so for, you watch Top Gun Maverick. And so for, you know, we sometimes overintellectualize know, we sometimes overintellectualize know, we sometimes overintellectualize these things like there's a feeling to these things like there's a feeling to these things like there's a feeling to it. Uh, even subtle things like I I it. Uh, even subtle things like I I it. Uh, even subtle things like I I heard from the the guy who made the heard from the the guy who made the heard from the the guy who made the movie 300 that after 300 came out, Navy movie 300 that after 300 came out, Navy movie 300 that after 300 came out, Navy Seal recruitment went through the roof Seal recruitment went through the roof Seal recruitment went through the roof and he was kind of perplexed. Obviously, and he was kind of perplexed. Obviously, and he was kind of perplexed. Obviously, it's it's a movie about Spartans. Like, it's it's a movie about Spartans. Like, it's it's a movie about Spartans. Like, what does this have to do with Navy what does this have to do with Navy what does this have to do with Navy Seals? But it clearly inspired so many Seals? But it clearly inspired so many Seals? But it clearly inspired so many people to be like, I want to look like people to be like, I want to look like people to be like, I want to look like that. I want to be that strong. I want that. I want to be that strong. I want that. I want to be that strong. I want to be that heroic, you know. And so the to be that heroic, you know. And so the to be that heroic, you know. And so the the virtue of entertainment as first of the virtue of entertainment as first of the virtue of entertainment as first of all, it's got to be entertaining. It's all, it's got to be entertaining. It's all, it's got to be entertaining. It's not Pravda here. But then it it lets us not Pravda here. But then it it lets us not Pravda here. But then it it lets us reflect on ourselves and who do we want reflect on ourselves and who do we want reflect on ourselves and who do we want to be and what do we want to be like? to be and what do we want to be like? to be and what do we want to be like? And if our entertainment is all And if our entertainment is all And if our entertainment is all Terminator, AI ruins the world, Terminator, AI ruins the world, Terminator, AI ruins the world, technology is a force of evil. It's all technology is a force of evil. It's all technology is a force of evil. It's all dystopic future scenarios. That sets a dystopic future scenarios. That sets a dystopic future scenarios. That sets a sort of condition which I would sort of condition which I would sort of condition which I would juxtapose to my youth in Orlando growing juxtapose to my youth in Orlando growing juxtapose to my youth in Orlando growing up in the shadow of the space coast up in the shadow of the space coast up in the shadow of the space coast which was just like science and which was just like science and which was just like science and technology is amazing and it's we're technology is amazing and it's we're technology is amazing and it's we're going to be living on other planets and going to be living on other planets and going to be living on other planets and you know as a sixth grader write a you know as a sixth grader write a you know as a sixth grader write a report on how are you going to get to report on how are you going to get to report on how are you going to get to Mars and it just inculcates a Mars and it just inculcates a Mars and it just inculcates a fundamental belief that the future will fundamental belief that the future will fundamental belief that the future will be better and that science technology be better and that science technology be better and that science technology the will to invest in these hard the will to invest in these hard the will to invest in these hard problems is worth it. It's worth it. Uh, problems is worth it. It's worth it. Uh, problems is worth it. It's worth it. Uh, and and I so I think we we have a moment and and I so I think we we have a moment and and I so I think we we have a moment to reclaim storytelling in a way that's to reclaim storytelling in a way that's to reclaim storytelling in a way that's both entertaining and inspiring. both entertaining and inspiring. both entertaining and inspiring. >> Yeah. No, I I love that you point out >> Yeah. No, I I love that you point out >> Yeah. No, I I love that you point out that you grew up in Orlando. It's funny. that you grew up in Orlando. It's funny. that you grew up in Orlando. It's funny. I I also grew up in Florida in the 80s I I also grew up in Florida in the 80s I I also grew up in Florida in the 80s and 90s and it was like, you know, and 90s and it was like, you know, and 90s and it was like, you know, people made fun of Florida, right? Like people made fun of Florida, right? Like people made fun of Florida, right? Like they didn't understand there was they didn't understand there was they didn't understand there was anything good there, but Orlando, I anything good there, but Orlando, I anything good there, but Orlando, I mean, you say it's the shadow of the mean, you say it's the shadow of the mean, you say it's the shadow of the Space Coast. It's also Disney World, Space Coast. It's also Disney World, Space Coast. It's also Disney World, right? It it's the best stories of a of right? It it's the best stories of a of right? It it's the best stories of a of of a century. It's it's it's American of a century. It's it's it's American of a century. It's it's it's American culture. And so I'd love to I mean, were culture. And so I'd love to I mean, were culture. And so I'd love to I mean, were you a Disney kid? I mean like was that you a Disney kid? I mean like was that you a Disney kid? I mean like was that something that like also spoke to you of something that like also spoke to you of something that like also spoke to you of like these these stories of good and like these these stories of good and like these these stories of good and evil that are passed down through evil that are passed down through evil that are passed down through cartoons cartoons cartoons like how did that like how did that like how did that >> Disneyland so also I mean there's a part >> Disneyland so also I mean there's a part >> Disneyland so also I mean there's a part of the story which is the the the of the story which is the the the of the story which is the the the business like why did we end up in business like why did we end up in business like why did we end up in Orlando you know after we we fled Orlando you know after we we fled Orlando you know after we we fled violence in Nigeria my dad had a violence in Nigeria my dad had a violence in Nigeria my dad had a childhood friend who was living in LA childhood friend who was living in LA childhood friend who was living in LA who sold knickknacks at theme parks and who sold knickknacks at theme parks and who sold knickknacks at theme parks and he's like hey look I know this horrible he's like hey look I know this horrible he's like hey look I know this horrible thing just happened to you there's this thing just happened to you there's this thing just happened to you there's this upand cominging place with theme parks I upand cominging place with theme parks I upand cominging place with theme parks I don't live there I need someone I trust don't live there I need someone I trust don't live there I need someone I trust there. Uh, why why don't you go to there. Uh, why why don't you go to there. Uh, why why don't you go to Orlando? So, literally, it's not just Orlando? So, literally, it's not just Orlando? So, literally, it's not just that was I a Disney kid. My parents job that was I a Disney kid. My parents job that was I a Disney kid. My parents job was to provide knickknacks in the theme was to provide knickknacks in the theme was to provide knickknacks in the theme park stores. So, like after school, they park stores. So, like after school, they park stores. So, like after school, they would take me to SeaWorld and I would would take me to SeaWorld and I would would take me to SeaWorld and I would pet the stingrays while they restock the pet the stingrays while they restock the pet the stingrays while they restock the shelves, you know. And so, I I grew up shelves, you know. And so, I I grew up shelves, you know. And so, I I grew up very much embibing the the storytelling, very much embibing the the storytelling, very much embibing the the storytelling, the aspir. I mean, Epcot, Epcot was all the aspir. I mean, Epcot, Epcot was all the aspir. I mean, Epcot, Epcot was all about painting an optimistic vision of about painting an optimistic vision of about painting an optimistic vision of the future and what technology was going the future and what technology was going the future and what technology was going to be like and the stories of of heroes to be like and the stories of of heroes to be like and the stories of of heroes and you know that there was both there and you know that there was both there and you know that there was both there was both evil and bad in the world and was both evil and bad in the world and was both evil and bad in the world and there were clearly heroic actions that there were clearly heroic actions that there were clearly heroic actions that you could take and it was all super you could take and it was all super you could take and it was all super inspiring. inspiring. inspiring. >> And do you I mean that that's what's so >> And do you I mean that that's what's so >> And do you I mean that that's what's so interesting too is like I feel like the interesting too is like I feel like the interesting too is like I feel like the the height of the sort of good and evil the height of the sort of good and evil the height of the sort of good and evil battle inside of Disney film was sort of battle inside of Disney film was sort of battle inside of Disney film was sort of the you know Lion King 90s, right? Like the you know Lion King 90s, right? Like the you know Lion King 90s, right? Like I mean they were different films then. I mean they were different films then. I mean they were different films then. How do we get back? I mean maybe it's How do we get back? I mean maybe it's How do we get back? I mean maybe it's not back, maybe it's forward, but how do not back, maybe it's forward, but how do not back, maybe it's forward, but how do we get back to those stories for we get back to those stories for we get back to those stories for children um for people to feel children um for people to feel children um for people to feel optimistic again? I mean, you know, in optimistic again? I mean, you know, in optimistic again? I mean, you know, in some ways you don't hear, oh, I grew up some ways you don't hear, oh, I grew up some ways you don't hear, oh, I grew up in this city and and it's the height of in this city and and it's the height of in this city and and it's the height of optimism. You don't hear that about optimism. You don't hear that about optimism. You don't hear that about California anymore. Um what what will it California anymore. Um what what will it California anymore. Um what what will it take for movies to to transform that? take for movies to to transform that? take for movies to to transform that? Well, you know, this is a a kind of a Well, you know, this is a a kind of a Well, you know, this is a a kind of a personal opinion, but I'm really excited personal opinion, but I'm really excited personal opinion, but I'm really excited that David Ellison is is going to have that David Ellison is is going to have that David Ellison is is going to have Warner Brothers because, you know, if Warner Brothers because, you know, if Warner Brothers because, you know, if you think about Hollywood, the original you think about Hollywood, the original you think about Hollywood, the original studio heads, they were founders. Like studio heads, they were founders. Like studio heads, they were founders. Like Jack Warner in the 30s, Germany was the Jack Warner in the 30s, Germany was the Jack Warner in the 30s, Germany was the third largest export market for American third largest export market for American third largest export market for American entertainment. And the Nazis actually entertainment. And the Nazis actually entertainment. And the Nazis actually deployed sensors into Hollywood to deployed sensors into Hollywood to deployed sensors into Hollywood to control what was being made. And every control what was being made. And every control what was being made. And every studio capitulated except for Warner studio capitulated except for Warner studio capitulated except for Warner Brothers. Jack Warner was the only Brothers. Jack Warner was the only Brothers. Jack Warner was the only person willing to stand up and speak person willing to stand up and speak person willing to stand up and speak truth and only a founder can do that truth and only a founder can do that truth and only a founder can do that because if you're a a professional CEO because if you're a a professional CEO because if you're a a professional CEO who's employed that's you can't you who's employed that's you can't you who's employed that's you can't you can't survive that. can't survive that. can't survive that. >> Um and so I think in some ways there's a >> Um and so I think in some ways there's a >> Um and so I think in some ways there's a mirror to the present day Hollywood and mirror to the present day Hollywood and mirror to the present day Hollywood and the defense industrial base. It's the defense industrial base. It's the defense industrial base. It's conformity. It's it's kind of lack of conformity. It's it's kind of lack of conformity. It's it's kind of lack of opinion. It's it's it's lack of a opinion. It's it's it's lack of a opinion. It's it's it's lack of a normative view of what is it trying to normative view of what is it trying to normative view of what is it trying to communicate. communicate. communicate. Then if you go a little bit further down Then if you go a little bit further down Then if you go a little bit further down the line, you look at the Vietnam era. the line, you look at the Vietnam era. the line, you look at the Vietnam era. Like we had very cynical Hollywood Like we had very cynical Hollywood Like we had very cynical Hollywood content in Vietnam as a reflection of content in Vietnam as a reflection of content in Vietnam as a reflection of how we felt about ourselves. how we felt about ourselves. how we felt about ourselves. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Uh in 73, George Lucas made American >> Uh in 73, George Lucas made American >> Uh in 73, George Lucas made American Graffiti because he was tired of it. Graffiti because he was tired of it. Graffiti because he was tired of it. He's like, I'm tired of it. I just want He's like, I'm tired of it. I just want He's like, I'm tired of it. I just want to make a movie about boys driving cars to make a movie about boys driving cars to make a movie about boys driving cars chasing girls. chasing girls. chasing girls. >> And it was a pallet cleanser that kind >> And it was a pallet cleanser that kind >> And it was a pallet cleanser that kind of like, yeah, the American people of like, yeah, the American people of like, yeah, the American people remembered like, okay, we we went remembered like, okay, we we went remembered like, okay, we we went through our period, our cycle of grief through our period, our cycle of grief through our period, our cycle of grief and cynicism, and we're we're ready. And and cynicism, and we're we're ready. And and cynicism, and we're we're ready. And it set the conditions for the movies of it set the conditions for the movies of it set the conditions for the movies of the 80s and '90s that we all love. I the 80s and '90s that we all love. I the 80s and '90s that we all love. I think we're we're we're also kind of think we're we're we're also kind of think we're we're we're also kind of tired of it right now. We're tired of tired of it right now. We're tired of tired of it right now. We're tired of the cynicism, the everything's going to the cynicism, the everything's going to the cynicism, the everything's going to be worse. And it you see that in the be worse. And it you see that in the be worse. And it you see that in the performance of stories. Top Gun performance of stories. Top Gun performance of stories. Top Gun Maverick's the easy one to point to. But Maverick's the easy one to point to. But Maverick's the easy one to point to. But but but the the content that's doing but but the the content that's doing but but the the content that's doing well right now is Americanoriented. It's well right now is Americanoriented. It's well right now is Americanoriented. It's there are inspirational figures. The there are inspirational figures. The there are inspirational figures. The heroes aren't anti-heroes that are drug heroes aren't anti-heroes that are drug heroes aren't anti-heroes that are drug addicts that you wouldn't want your kids addicts that you wouldn't want your kids addicts that you wouldn't want your kids to grow up to be. There's actually some to grow up to be. There's actually some to grow up to be. There's actually some sense of inspiration in it. and some sense of inspiration in it. and some sense of inspiration in it. and some pride and in terms of uh who we are and pride and in terms of uh who we are and pride and in terms of uh who we are and how that reflects in the entertainment how that reflects in the entertainment how that reflects in the entertainment itself. So I think I think we're you itself. So I think I think we're you itself. So I think I think we're you know if you think about the next know if you think about the next know if you think about the next uh two to 10 years we're going to see a uh two to 10 years we're going to see a uh two to 10 years we're going to see a lot of content like that. That's what I lot of content like that. That's what I lot of content like that. That's what I see in the development pipeline from see in the development pipeline from see in the development pipeline from these studios themselves. these studios themselves. these studios themselves. >> That's exciting. So so maybe talk to us >> That's exciting. So so maybe talk to us >> That's exciting. So so maybe talk to us about some of your projects or or things about some of your projects or or things about some of your projects or or things you're working on and and what you're you're working on and and what you're you're working on and and what you're most excited about. But then also yeah most excited about. But then also yeah most excited about. But then also yeah that's so interesting. We we've had that's so interesting. We we've had that's so interesting. We we've had these conversations, Eric and I, uh, these conversations, Eric and I, uh, these conversations, Eric and I, uh, with Mark and others about how, you with Mark and others about how, you with Mark and others about how, you know, the pipeline for the last 10 years know, the pipeline for the last 10 years know, the pipeline for the last 10 years has been da we're sort of getting the has been da we're sort of getting the has been da we're sort of getting the end of the pipeline. You're seeing it in end of the pipeline. You're seeing it in end of the pipeline. You're seeing it in sort of the Oscar nominees this year. sort of the Oscar nominees this year. sort of the Oscar nominees this year. You know, it's like they're they're not You know, it's like they're they're not You know, it's like they're they're not optimistic, but as you said, like maybe optimistic, but as you said, like maybe optimistic, but as you said, like maybe 10 years from now, we're going to see 10 years from now, we're going to see 10 years from now, we're going to see this pipeline of just like pro America, this pipeline of just like pro America, this pipeline of just like pro America, exciting, optimistic, enthusiastic, exciting, optimistic, enthusiastic, exciting, optimistic, enthusiastic, golden age sort of content. What are you golden age sort of content. What are you golden age sort of content. What are you seeing? And and and what most excites seeing? And and and what most excites seeing? And and and what most excites you? you? you? >> Well, you know, I don't want to give >> Well, you know, I don't want to give >> Well, you know, I don't want to give away too much of my own development away too much of my own development away too much of my own development pipeline here. Um, but I would say like pipeline here. Um, but I would say like pipeline here. Um, but I would say like you see like Call of Duty is being made you see like Call of Duty is being made you see like Call of Duty is being made right now uh with by Pete Berg and right now uh with by Pete Berg and right now uh with by Pete Berg and Taylor Sheridan. You see the entire Taylor Sheridan. You see the entire Taylor Sheridan. You see the entire Taylor Sheridan universe. I mean and and Taylor Sheridan universe. I mean and and Taylor Sheridan universe. I mean and and talk about Sakario. It was like 2014 talk about Sakario. It was like 2014 talk about Sakario. It was like 2014 Sakario is basically came to life with Sakario is basically came to life with Sakario is basically came to life with the uh new the Haliscoco New Generation the uh new the Haliscoco New Generation the uh new the Haliscoco New Generation Cartel, right? Like like there there's a Cartel, right? Like like there there's a Cartel, right? Like like there there's a sense in which sense in which sense in which um the storytellers um the storytellers um the storytellers have exactly the frame that we're that have exactly the frame that we're that have exactly the frame that we're that we're kind of excited about. I think we're kind of excited about. I think we're kind of excited about. I think there's recent events are very there's recent events are very there's recent events are very interesting to tell stories about right interesting to tell stories about right interesting to tell stories about right now. Um now. Um now. Um even a movie like War Machine which just even a movie like War Machine which just even a movie like War Machine which just came out came out came out from watching the trailers it was not from watching the trailers it was not from watching the trailers it was not yet clear. You could imagine like 5 yet clear. You could imagine like 5 yet clear. You could imagine like 5 years ago that that the storyline would years ago that that the storyline would years ago that that the storyline would have been something more like the US have been something more like the US have been something more like the US government build evil robots that the government build evil robots that the government build evil robots that the human soldiers had to defeat. human soldiers had to defeat. human soldiers had to defeat. >> In this case it was more like aliens >> In this case it was more like aliens >> In this case it was more like aliens basically. Sorry to give away the plot basically. Sorry to give away the plot basically. Sorry to give away the plot if you haven't seen it, but you know, if you haven't seen it, but you know, if you haven't seen it, but you know, you have an alien robot and brave you have an alien robot and brave you have an alien robot and brave American Rangers have to defeat them and American Rangers have to defeat them and American Rangers have to defeat them and and do through their own ingenuity. That and do through their own ingenuity. That and do through their own ingenuity. That that itself is I think showing you it's that itself is I think showing you it's that itself is I think showing you it's belies the shift in the narrative and belies the shift in the narrative and belies the shift in the narrative and storytelling that's happening. I think storytelling that's happening. I think storytelling that's happening. I think world events remind us that there are world events remind us that there are world events remind us that there are actually actually actually there is actually evil out there. there is actually evil out there. there is actually evil out there. Russian tanks can just roll across the Russian tanks can just roll across the Russian tanks can just roll across the border. you know, October 7th, just border. you know, October 7th, just border. you know, October 7th, just horrendous barbarism is still possible horrendous barbarism is still possible horrendous barbarism is still possible that these things don't maintain that these things don't maintain that these things don't maintain themselves. themselves. themselves. Um, Um, Um, so what what would what would I like I so what what would what would I like I so what what would what would I like I think so putting this back in a think so putting this back in a think so putting this back in a geopolitical lens, you know, as much as geopolitical lens, you know, as much as geopolitical lens, you know, as much as I've been saying we shouldn't call China I've been saying we shouldn't call China I've been saying we shouldn't call China nearper, we should call them peer nearper, we should call them peer nearper, we should call them peer because calling them near pier is like a because calling them near pier is like a because calling them near pier is like a shibilith that lets us off the hook. shibilith that lets us off the hook. shibilith that lets us off the hook. When you look at operations like Maduro When you look at operations like Maduro When you look at operations like Maduro or Midnight Hammer, it's hard to think or Midnight Hammer, it's hard to think or Midnight Hammer, it's hard to think of more you have done to restore of more you have done to restore of more you have done to restore deterrence in the world. A reminder that deterrence in the world. A reminder that deterrence in the world. A reminder that we do have the will. Maybe because we we do have the will. Maybe because we we do have the will. Maybe because we didn't have the will, you forgot that we didn't have the will, you forgot that we didn't have the will, you forgot that we had the capability. But we have both the had the capability. But we have both the had the capability. But we have both the capability and the will to do things capability and the will to do things capability and the will to do things that are quite amazing. that are quite amazing. that are quite amazing. At the same time, it signals a very At the same time, it signals a very At the same time, it signals a very obvious truth, which is somehow none of obvious truth, which is somehow none of obvious truth, which is somehow none of the Russian and Chinese worked. So, the Russian and Chinese worked. So, the Russian and Chinese worked. So, if you're a third party country and if you're a third party country and if you're a third party country and you're thinking about how what is the you're thinking about how what is the you're thinking about how what is the future of the world and how do you want future of the world and how do you want future of the world and how do you want to be allied and maybe you've been to be allied and maybe you've been to be allied and maybe you've been hedging because you've been seeing hedging because you've been seeing hedging because you've been seeing America in retreat, it's it's also a America in retreat, it's it's also a America in retreat, it's it's also a reminder that the Chinese did not come reminder that the Chinese did not come reminder that the Chinese did not come to save Maduro and none of the equipment to save Maduro and none of the equipment to save Maduro and none of the equipment they provided actually seem to do they provided actually seem to do they provided actually seem to do anything. So, is that really an option anything. So, is that really an option anything. So, is that really an option for you? Uh, for you? Uh, for you? Uh, so I give you the geopolitical answer, so I give you the geopolitical answer, so I give you the geopolitical answer, but I think okay, here are some some but I think okay, here are some some but I think okay, here are some some projects I I think I can share. So, projects I I think I can share. So, projects I I think I can share. So, Oppenheimer was hugely successful and Oppenheimer was hugely successful and Oppenheimer was hugely successful and complicated, right? where it's like complicated, right? where it's like complicated, right? where it's like it's threedimensional to the point of it's threedimensional to the point of it's threedimensional to the point of entertainment. It's not Pravda. entertainment. It's not Pravda. entertainment. It's not Pravda. Uh I think there's a very powerful story Uh I think there's a very powerful story Uh I think there's a very powerful story in Hyman Rickover and the birth of the in Hyman Rickover and the birth of the in Hyman Rickover and the birth of the new Navy. We talked a little bit about new Navy. We talked a little bit about new Navy. We talked a little bit about him. But you know what I love about Rick him. But you know what I love about Rick him. But you know what I love about Rick Overber is he was born in a shuttle in Overber is he was born in a shuttle in Overber is he was born in a shuttle in Poland. Uh came came over at the age of Poland. Uh came came over at the age of Poland. Uh came came over at the age of six. One of these near almost near miss six. One of these near almost near miss six. One of these near almost near miss stories where they were on Ellis Island. stories where they were on Ellis Island. stories where they were on Ellis Island. When you get to Ellis Island, you have When you get to Ellis Island, you have When you get to Ellis Island, you have 10 days for someone to come pick you up. 10 days for someone to come pick you up. 10 days for someone to come pick you up. And so his mother sent a telegram, gave And so his mother sent a telegram, gave And so his mother sent a telegram, gave someone money to send a telegram to the someone money to send a telegram to the someone money to send a telegram to the father who was already here to come get father who was already here to come get father who was already here to come get them. The guy pocketed the money for the them. The guy pocketed the money for the them. The guy pocketed the money for the telegram. On day 10, someone happens to telegram. On day 10, someone happens to telegram. On day 10, someone happens to arrive that they know from the old world arrive that they know from the old world arrive that they know from the old world who then runs out, gets the father to who then runs out, gets the father to who then runs out, gets the father to claim them, get buys them one extra day. claim them, get buys them one extra day. claim them, get buys them one extra day. So on day 11, they get picked up. But So on day 11, they get picked up. But So on day 11, they get picked up. But you know, this near miss where we almost you know, this near miss where we almost you know, this near miss where we almost didn't have Rick Overber. But Rick didn't have Rick Overber. But Rick didn't have Rick Overber. But Rick Overber was a notoriously difficult Overber was a notoriously difficult Overber was a notoriously difficult personality. He was a 5 foot2 short guy personality. He was a 5 foot2 short guy personality. He was a 5 foot2 short guy in World War II. He drove a coal ship. in World War II. He drove a coal ship. in World War II. He drove a coal ship. Not he had no it was not a prestigious Not he had no it was not a prestigious Not he had no it was not a prestigious post. But after World War II he was sent post. But after World War II he was sent post. But after World War II he was sent to Oakidge uh at the the vestigages of to Oakidge uh at the the vestigages of to Oakidge uh at the the vestigages of the Manhattan project and he was the Manhattan project and he was the Manhattan project and he was inspired. He had this idea of putting inspired. He had this idea of putting inspired. He had this idea of putting nuclear power inside of the submarines nuclear power inside of the submarines nuclear power inside of the submarines because before then submarines sucked. because before then submarines sucked. because before then submarines sucked. They they could go underwater for like They they could go underwater for like They they could go underwater for like an hour. They were diesel powered. They an hour. They were diesel powered. They an hour. They were diesel powered. They were loud. They they were basically were loud. They they were basically were loud. They they were basically surface ships that could occasionally surface ships that could occasionally surface ships that could occasionally submerge. And after that they became submerge. And after that they became submerge. And after that they became really exquisite. And and I think he really exquisite. And and I think he really exquisite. And and I think he built the first one in like five years, built the first one in like five years, built the first one in like five years, six years, the Nautilus. six years, the Nautilus. six years, the Nautilus. But the Navy didn't want him to succeed. But the Navy didn't want him to succeed. But the Navy didn't want him to succeed. They they not only did Aanimer think it They they not only did Aanimer think it They they not only did Aanimer think it was a stupid idea, the Navy did, too. was a stupid idea, the Navy did, too. was a stupid idea, the Navy did, too. His first office was a women's restroom. His first office was a women's restroom. His first office was a women's restroom. I kid you not, you know, it's like, how I kid you not, you know, it's like, how I kid you not, you know, it's like, how can we humiliate this guy to quit? And can we humiliate this guy to quit? And can we humiliate this guy to quit? And he just kept going. And what I I think he just kept going. And what I I think he just kept going. And what I I think is interesting when you look at his is interesting when you look at his is interesting when you look at his memoirs, like it's not that he was memoirs, like it's not that he was memoirs, like it's not that he was immune to the humiliation. He felt every immune to the humiliation. He felt every immune to the humiliation. He felt every slight and insult. He documented them, slight and insult. He documented them, slight and insult. He documented them, but somehow he was able to channel that but somehow he was able to channel that but somehow he was able to channel that into into into something he was going to push through something he was going to push through something he was going to push through and still succeed despite that. Zomwalt, and still succeed despite that. Zomwalt, and still succeed despite that. Zomwalt, who was the chief of naval operations, who was the chief of naval operations, who was the chief of naval operations, the senior most uh uniformed person in the senior most uh uniformed person in the senior most uh uniformed person in the Navy, said the Navy has three the Navy, said the Navy has three the Navy, said the Navy has three enemies, the Soviet Union, the Air enemies, the Soviet Union, the Air enemies, the Soviet Union, the Air Force, and Hyman Rickover, his own Force, and Hyman Rickover, his own Force, and Hyman Rickover, his own admiral. admiral. admiral. >> Uh the other thing that I think fits >> Uh the other thing that I think fits >> Uh the other thing that I think fits very closely with 18 thesis is like very closely with 18 thesis is like very closely with 18 thesis is like Rickover was a four-star admiral for 30 Rickover was a four-star admiral for 30 Rickover was a four-star admiral for 30 years. That is something we can't even years. That is something we can't even years. That is something we can't even contemplate today. We we we we almost contemplate today. We we we we almost contemplate today. We we we we almost view our our officers as as cogs to keep view our our officers as as cogs to keep view our our officers as as cogs to keep moving around. Every two to three years moving around. Every two to three years moving around. Every two to three years you have to keep moving. you have to keep moving. you have to keep moving. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> As the first director of the nuclear >> As the first director of the nuclear >> As the first director of the nuclear navy of of of naval reactors. Um you navy of of of naval reactors. Um you navy of of of naval reactors. Um you know he was in that role for a very long know he was in that role for a very long know he was in that role for a very long time. But that role even today is an time. But that role even today is an time. But that role even today is an 8-year stint which shows you the primacy 8-year stint which shows you the primacy 8-year stint which shows you the primacy of people that we understand with of people that we understand with of people that we understand with something this exquisite something where something this exquisite something where something this exquisite something where this much knowledge and continuity this much knowledge and continuity this much knowledge and continuity matters you don't just keep pulling matters you don't just keep pulling matters you don't just keep pulling people out every two or three years. people out every two or three years. people out every two or three years. Uh and our our re our ships our subs Uh and our our re our ships our subs Uh and our our re our ships our subs were are the safest in the world by a were are the safest in the world by a were are the safest in the world by a long shot. So every six months the long shot. So every six months the long shot. So every six months the Soviet submariners would get six months Soviet submariners would get six months Soviet submariners would get six months of respite at Sochi to recover their of respite at Sochi to recover their of respite at Sochi to recover their white blood cell count because they were white blood cell count because they were white blood cell count because they were getting irdiated. getting irdiated. getting irdiated. >> We've had no deaths due to radiation. >> We've had no deaths due to radiation. >> We've had no deaths due to radiation. >> You know he he built it with the >> You know he he built it with the >> You know he he built it with the specification this has to be safe enough specification this has to be safe enough specification this has to be safe enough for my son. He built it to a for my son. He built it to a for my son. He built it to a specification that is 100 times safer specification that is 100 times safer specification that is 100 times safer than the minimum safety standard. And than the minimum safety standard. And than the minimum safety standard. And that is the sort of aspiration only a that is the sort of aspiration only a that is the sort of aspiration only a founder could have. founder could have. founder could have. >> Yeah. This is gonna be a great movie. >> Yeah. This is gonna be a great movie. >> Yeah. This is gonna be a great movie. >> What what else is there to do? I mean, >> What what else is there to do? I mean, >> What what else is there to do? I mean, you're doing you're doing everything. So you're doing you're doing everything. So you're doing you're doing everything. So So what what what else is on the radar So what what what else is on the radar So what what what else is on the radar for you? for you? for you? >> Well, you know, I uh in some sense, >> Well, you know, I uh in some sense, >> Well, you know, I uh in some sense, maybe it's enough, but all these things maybe it's enough, but all these things maybe it's enough, but all these things have a throughine where it's really have a throughine where it's really have a throughine where it's really about American greatness and inspiring about American greatness and inspiring about American greatness and inspiring the next generation. It's driven home to the next generation. It's driven home to the next generation. It's driven home to me when I think about my kids and me when I think about my kids and me when I think about my kids and recognizing that the America I grew up recognizing that the America I grew up recognizing that the America I grew up in is something that every generation in is something that every generation in is something that every generation has had to fight for. And I'm in that has had to fight for. And I'm in that has had to fight for. And I'm in that phase now where I'm fighting for the the phase now where I'm fighting for the the phase now where I'm fighting for the the prosperity that the next generation prosperity that the next generation prosperity that the next generation ought to have. And so whether it's soft ought to have. And so whether it's soft ought to have. And so whether it's soft power and inspiration in movies or hard power and inspiration in movies or hard power and inspiration in movies or hard power and deterrence of adversaries and power and deterrence of adversaries and power and deterrence of adversaries and preventing World War II, it's all about preventing World War II, it's all about preventing World War II, it's all about American greatness and the prosperity of American greatness and the prosperity of American greatness and the prosperity of the American people.